5,018 Matching Annotations
  1. Jul 2024
    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Response to Reviewer 1

      (Cys25)PTH(1-84) does not show efficacy surpassing that of the previously used rhPTH(1-34). This needs to be discussed biologically and clinically.

      Thank you very much for your valuable comments for enhancing the manuscript. We appreciate your input and have noted that this aspect was not addressed in the discussion. The authors have included the following paragraph in discussion section.

      “This biological difference is thought to be due to dimeric R25CPTH(1-34) exhibiting a more preferential binding affinity for the RG versus R0 PTH1R conformation, despite having a diminished affinity for either conformation. Additionally, the potency of cAMP production in cells was lower for dimeric R25CPTH compared to monomeric R25CPTH, consistent with its lower PTH1R-binding affinity.  (Noh et al., 2024) One of the potential clinical advantages of dimeric R25CPTH(1-34) is its partial agonistic effect in pharmacodynamics. This property may allow for a more fine-tuned regulation of bone metabolism, potentially reducing the risk of adverse effects associated with full agonism, such as hypercalcemia and bone resorption by osteolcast activity. Moreover, the dimeric form may offer a more sustained anabolic response, which could be beneficial in the context of long-term treatment strategies. (Noh et al., 2024) Also, the effects of dimer were prominent, as we mentioned better bone formation than the control group.” (2nd paragraph, Discussion section)

      The terms (Cys25)PTH(1-84) and Dimeric R25CPTH(1-34) are being used interchangeably and incorrectly. A unification of these terms is necessary.

      We totally agree with the reviewer’s notion. R25CPTH(1-84) represents mutated human PTH, rhPTH(1-34) and dimeric R25CPTH(1-34) are synthesized PTH analogs. To clarified the terminology, we thus have changeed the terminology in the manuscript appear in red.

      The figure legend is incorrect. Not all figures are described, and even though there are figures from A to I, only up to E is explained, or the content is different.

      We apologize for our negligence. As suggested by a reviewer, we've fixed the figure legends throughout before the list of references in the manuscript as follows.

      “Figure legends

      Figure 1. Micro-CT analysis (A-D) Experimental design for the controlled delivery of rhPTH(1-34) and dimeric R25CPTH(1-34) in ovariectomized beagle model. Representative images for injection and placement of titanium implant. (E) Micro-CT analysis. bone mineral density (BMD), bone volume (TV; mm3), trabecular number (Tb.N; 1/mm), trabecular thickness (Tb. Th; um), trabecular separation (Tb.sp; ㎛). Error bars indicate standard deviation. Data are shown as mean ± s.d. *p<0.05, **p<0.01, ***p<0.001, n.s., not significant.  P, posterior. R, right

      Figure 2. (A-I) Histological analysis of the different groups stained in Goldner’s trichrome. The presence of bone is marked by the green color and soft tissue in red. Red arrows indicate the position with soft tissues without bone around the implant threads. The area of bone formed was the widest in the rhPTH(1-34)-treated group. In the dimeric R25CPTH(1-34)treated group, there is a greater amount of bone than vehicle-treated group. Green arrows represent the bone formed over the implant. blue dotted line, margin of bone and soft tissue; Scale bars: 1mm

      Figure 3. Histological analysis using Masson trichrome staining results in the rhPTH(1-34) and dimeric R25CPTH(1-34)-treated group (A-L) Masson trichrome-stained sections of cancellous bone in the mandibular bone. The formed bone is marked by the color red. Collagen is stained blue. Black dotted box magnification region of trabecular bone in the mandible. Scale bars, A-C, G-I: 1mm; D-F, J-L: 200 ㎛

      Figure 4. Immunohistochemical analysis using TRAP staining for bone remodeling activity (A-L) TRAP staining is used to evaluate bone remodeling by staining osteoclasts. Osteoclasts is presented by the purple color. Black dotted box magnification region of trabecular bone in the mandible. (M, N) The number of TRAP-positive cells in the mandible of the rhPTH(1-34) and dimeric R25CPTH(1-34)-treated beagles. Scale bars, A-C, G-I: 1mm; D-F, J-L: 200 ㎛. Error bars indicate standard deviation. Data are shown as mean ± s.d. *p<0.05, **p<0.01, n.s., not significant

      Figure 5. Measurement of biochemical Marker Dynamics in serum. The serum levels of calcium, phosphorus, P1NP, and CTX across three time points (T0, T1, T2) following treatment with dimeric dimeric R25CPTH(1-34), rhPTH(1-34), or control. (A-B) Calcium and phosphorus levels exhibit an upward trend in response to both PTH treatments compared to control, suggesting enhanced bone mineralization. (C) P1NP levels, indicative of bone formation, remain relatively unchanged across time and treatments. (D) CTX levels, associated with bone resorption, show no significant differences between groups. Data points for the dimeric R25CPTH(1-34), rhPTH(1-34), and control are marked by squares, circles, and triangles, respectively, with error bars representing confidence intervals.

      Supplementary Figure. Three-dimensional reconstructed image of the bone surrounding the implants. Three-dimensional reconstructed images of the peri-implant bone depicting the osseointegration after different therapeutic interventions. (A) Represents the bone response to recombinant human parathyroid hormone fragment (rhPTH 1-34) treatment, showing the most robust degree of bone formation around the implant in the three groups. (B) Shows the bone response to a modified PTH fragment (dimeric R25CPTH(1-34)), indicating a similar level of bone growth and integration as seen with rhPTH(1-34), although to a slightly lesser extent. (C) Serves as the control group, demonstrating the least amount of bone formation and osseointegration. The upper panel provides a top view of the bone-implant interface, while the lower panel offers a cross-sectional view highlighting the extent of bony ingrowth and integration with the implant surface.”

      In Figure 5, although the descriptions of T0, T1, T2 are mentioned in the method section, it would be more clear if there was a timeline like in Figure 1.

      Based on the reviewer’s advice, we have indicated the timing of T0, T1, and T2 in the materials & methods section describing the serum biochemical assay, and we have shown a timeline in figure 5.

      In Figure 5, instead of having calcium, phosphorus, P1NP, CTX graphs all under Figure 5, it would be more convenient for referencing in the text to label them as Figure 5A, Figure 5B, Figure 5C, Figure 5D.

      We totally understood the reviewer’s comment. As the reviewer’s suggested, we have corrected the labeling in the text for figure 5 as follows.

      “The levels of calcium, phosphorus, CTX, and P1NP were analyzed over time using RM-ANOVA (Figure 5). There were no significant differences between the groups for calcium and phosphorus at time points T0 and T1 (Figure 5A). However, after the PTH analog was administered at T2 (Figure 5A), the levels were highest in the rhPTH(1-34) group, followed by the dimeric R25CPTH(1-34) group, and then, lowest in the control group, which was statistically significant (Figure 5B,C). (P < 0.05) The differences between the groups over time for CTX and P1NP were not statistically significant (Figure 5D, E).”

      Significance should be indicated in the figure (no asterisk present).

      As the reviewer’s comment, we put the asterisk in the figure 5.

      Addition of Figures in Text:

      Line 112: change from "figure 2" to "figure 1" / Line 115: mention "figure 1. E"

      Line 120: refer to "figure 1. E" / Line 123: change from "figure 3" to "figure 2"

      Line 128: refer to "figure 2.A-C" / Line 137: mention "figure 3"

      Line 138: refer to "figure 3. A-L" / Line 143: mention "figure 3. A-L"

      Line 144: refer to "figure 3. E,F,K,L" / Line 148: mention "figure 4"

      Line 150: refer to "figure 4 M,N" / Line 152: mention "figure 4. M,N"

      Line 155: refer to "figure 5" / Line 157: mention "figure 5"

      Line 159: refer to "figure 5" / Line 171: mention "figure 1 E"

      Line 175: refer to "figure 2 M, N"/ Line 194: mention "figure 3"

      Above all, thank you for the reviewer’s notion. We corrected detailed figure labeling in text to red color.

      Response to Reviewer 2

      First, the authors should clarify why they compared the effects of rhPTH(1-34) and of dimeric R25C2 PTH(1-34)? In most of the parameters, rhPTH(1-34) seems to be superior to dimeric R25C2 PTH(1-34). Why did the authors insist that the anabolic effects of dimer were prominent? Even though implication of dimeric R25C2 PTH(1-34) was drawn from genetic mutation studies, the authors should describe more clearly in the discussion the potential clinical benefits of the dimeric R25C2 PTH(1-34) compared to rhPTH(1-34), especially if dimeric R25C2 PTH(1-34) has just partial agonistic effect in pharmacodynamics.

      Thank you for your insightful comments and questions regarding our results between rhPTH(1-34) and dimeric R25CPTH(1-34). rhPTH(1-34) is a well-characterized therapy for osteoporosis. In this study, rhPTH(1-34) generally showed superior outcomes in most parameters tested, the dimeric R25CPTH(1-34) exhibited specific anabolic effects that are not as pronounced with rhPTH(1-34). We recognized R25CPTH(1-34) as a anabolic effector. One of the potential advantages of dimeric R25CPTH(1-34) is its partial agonistic effect in pharmacodynamics. This property may allow for a more fine-tuned regulation of bone metabolism, potentially reducing the risk of adverse effects associated with full agonism, such as hypercalcemia and bone resorption by osteolast activity. Moreover, the dimeric form may offer a more sustained anabolic response, which could be beneficial in the context of long-term treatment strategies. Also, based on our results, we notes that the effects of dimer were prominent, as we mentioned better bone formation than the control group. We appreciate your input and have noted that this aspect was not addressed in the discussion. As a result, we have included the following paragraph in discussion section.

      “This biological difference is thought to be due to dimeric R25CPTH(1-34) exhibiting a more preferential binding affinity for the RG versus R0 PTH1R conformation, despite having a diminished affinity for either conformation. Additionally, the potency of cAMP production in cells was lower for dimeric R25CPTH compared to monomeric R25CPTH, consistent with its lower PTH1R-binding affinity.  (Noh et al., 2024) One of the potential clinical advantages of dimeric R25CPTH(1-34) is its partial agonistic effect in pharmacodynamics. This property may allow for a more fine-tuned regulation of bone metabolism, potentially reducing the risk of adverse effects associated with full agonism, such as hypercalcemia and bone resorption by osteolcast activity. Moreover, the dimeric form may offer a more sustained anabolic response, which could be beneficial in the context of long-term treatment strategies. (Noh et al., 2024) Also, the effects of dimer were prominent, as we mentioned better bone formation than the control group.” (2nd paragraph, Discussion section)

      Second, please describe the intermittent and continuous application of PTH analogues. Many of the readers may misunderstand that the authors' daily injection of PTHs were actually to mimic the clinical intermittent application or continuous one. Incorporation of the author's intention for experimental design would be more helpful for readers.

      Thank you for your insightful comments regarding the need for clearer differentiation between intermittent and continuous applications of PTH analogs in this study. We appreciate your concern that the readers may not fully grasp whether our daily injection protocol was intended to mimic clinical intermittent or continuous PTH administration. To address this, we have revised the manuscript to explicitly clarify that the daily injections of rhPTH(1-34) and dimeric R25CPTH(1-34) were designed to simulate the intermittent dosing regimen commonly used in clinical practice. This regimen is known to maximize the anabolic effects on bone while minimizing potential catabolic actions associated with more frequent or continuous hormone exposure. We have added detailed explanations in the Introduction, Methods, and Discussion sections to help readers understand our experimental design and its relevance to clinical settings.

      Introduction section

      “Administration of prathyroid hormone (PTH) analogs can be categorized into two distinct protocols: intermittent and continuous. Intermittent rhPTH(1-34) therapy, typically characterized by daily injections, is clinically used to enhance bone formation and strength. This method leverages the anabolic effects of rhPTH(1-34) without significant bone resorption, which can occur with more frequent or continuous exposure. On the other hand, continuous rhPTH(1-34) exposure, often modeled in research as constant infusion, tends to accelerate bone resorption activities, potentially leading to bone loss (Silva and Bilezikian, 2015; Jilka, 2007). Understanding these differences is crucial for interpreting the therapeutic implications of rhPTH(1-34) in bone health.”

      Silva, B. C., & Bilezikian, J. P. (2015). Parathyroid hormone: anabolic and catabolic actions on the skeleton. Current Opinion in Pharmacology, 22, 41-50.

      Jilka, R. L. (2007). Molecular and cellular mechanisms of the anabolic effect of intermittent PTH. Bone, 40(6), 1434-1446.

      Materials and Methods section

      “Each animal received one injection per day, aimed at replicating the intermittent rhPTH(1-34) exposure proven beneficial for bone regeneration and overall skeletal health in clinical settings (Neer et al., 2001; Kendler et al., 2018). This regimen was chosen to investigate the potential anabolic effects of these specific PTH analogs under conditions closely resembling therapeutic use.”

      Neer, R. M., Arnaud, C. D., Zanchetta, J. R., Prince, R., Gaich, G. A., Reginster, J. Y., Hodsman, A. B., Eriksen, E. F., Ish-Shalom, S., Genant, H. K., Wang, O., and Mitlak, B. H. (2001). Effect of Parathyroid Hormone (1-34) on Fractures and Bone Mineral Density in Postmenopausal Women with Osteoporosis. The New England Journal of Medicine, 344(19), 1434-1441.

      Kendler, D. L., Marin, F., Zerbini, C. A. F., Russo, L. A., Greenspan, S. L., Zikan, V., Bagur, A., Malouf-Sierra, J., Lakatos, P., Fahrleitner-Pammer, A., Lespessailles, E., Minisola, S., Body, J. J., Geusens, P., Moricke, R., & Lopez-Romero, P. (2018). Effects of Teriparatide and Risedronate on New Fractures in Post-Menopausal Women with Severe Osteoporosis (VERO): A Multicenter, Double-Blind, Double-Dummy, Randomized Controlled Trial. The Lancet, 391(10117), 230-240.

      Discussion section

      “The use of daily injections in this study was intended to simulate intermittent PTH therapy, a well-established clinical approach for managing osteoporosis and enhancing bone regeneration. Intermittent administration of PTH, as opposed to continuous exposure, is critical for maximizing the anabolic response while minimizing the catabolic effects that are associated with higher frequency or continuous hormone levels. Our findings support the notion that even with daily administration, both rhPTH(1-34) and dimeric dimeric R25CPTH(1-34) promote bone formation and osseointegration, consistent with the outcomes expected from intermittent therapy. It’s important for future research to consider the dosage and timing of administration to further optimize the therapeutic benefits of PTH analogs (Dempster et al., 2001; Hodsman et al., 2005).”

      Dempster, D. W., Cosman, F., Kurland, E. S., Zhou, H., Nieves, J., Woelfert, L., Shane, E., Plavetic, K., Müller, R., Bilezikian, J., & Lindsay, R. (2001). Effects of Daily Treatment with Parathyroid Hormone on Bone Microarchitecture and Turnover in Patients with Osteoporosis: A Paired Biopsy Study. Journal of Bone and Mineral Research, 16(10), 1846-1853.

      Hodsman, A. B., Bauer, D. C., Dempster, D. W., Dian, L., Hanley, D. A., Harris, S. T., Kendler, D. L., McClung, M. R., Miller, P. D., Olszynski, W. P., Orwoll, E., Yuen, C. K. (2005). Parathyroid Hormone and Teriparatide for the Treatment of Osteoporosis: A Review of the Evidence and Suggested Guidelines for Its Use. Endocrine Reviews, 26(5), 688-703.

      Third, please unify the nomenclature. Ensure consistency in the nomenclature throughout the article. Unify the naming conventions for PTH analogues, such as rhPTH(1-34) vs teriparatide and (Cys25)PTH(1-84) vs R25CPTH(1-34) vs R25CPTH(1-34) vs (1-84). Choose one nomenclature for each analogue and use it consistently throughout the article.

      We totally agree with the reviewer’s notion. R25CPTH(1-84) represents mutated human PTH, rhPTH(1-34) and dimeric R25CPTH(1-34) are synthesized PTH analogs. To clarified the terminology, we thus have changed the terminology in the manuscript appear in red.

      Response to Reviewer 3

      I would recommend to rewrite the manuscript in a form that is more understandable to the readers. In fact, it appears to me that this work was originally formatted in a way that would need the Materials and Methods to precede the results. As presented (and as requested by the eLife formatting) the Materials and Methods are available only at the end of the reading and, as a consequence, the readers needs to refer to the Materials and Methods to have a general and initial understanding of the study design (i.e. type of treatment for each group, etc are not well specified in the Results section).

      Thank you for you constructive comments and suggestions regarding the manuscript. We appreciate your feedback on the organization of the manuscript entirely. As reviewer mentioned, Materials and methods were placed after the discussion section in accordance with the format of the elife journal. For a better and initial understanding, a description of each experimental group has been added to the Results section as follow. Thank you again for your valuable comments.

      “To investigate evaluating and comparing the efficacy of rhPTH(1-34) and the dimeric R25CPTH(1-34) in promoting bone regeneration and healing in a clinically relevant animal model. In our study, beagle dogs were selected as the model due to their anatomical similarity to human oral structures, suitable size for surgeries, human-like bone turnover rates, and established oral health profiles, ensuring comparable and ethically sound research outcomes. The normal saline injected-control group, injected with 40ug/day PTH (Forsteo, Eli Lilly) group, and 40ug/day PTH analog-injected group. Animals in each group were injected subcutaneously for 10 weeks.”

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      Reply to the reviewers

      Response to the reviewer's questions

      __Reviewer #1 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      Using the S protein from 14 different sarbecoviruses isolated from bats or pangolin, Zhang et al. makes in this manuscript several points on sabecovirus entry. These points include ACE2 independent entry, trypsin-driven entry, RBD-dependence of trypsin-mediated entry, use of soluble proteases and TRMPRSS-family transmembrane proteases in trypsin-mediated and trypsin-independent entry, and neutralizing antibody evasion in trypsin-mediated entry. Some of these points are supported by the data presented; although there are some discrepancies, they are largely within the range of experimental error. However, some of the statements in the Title, Abstract, and main text, appear to be more than what the data support. Nonetheless, the data authors presented are informative and will help understanding sarbecovirus entry processes. __


      Thank you very much for the positive assessment of our study and for the suggestions for improvement.__

      Major points:

      Below are only a few examples of inaccurate sentences. The authors should rewrite similar statements throughout the manuscript.

      Q1: The title: "ACE2-independent sarbecovirus cell entry is supported by TMPRSS2-related enzymes and reduces sensitivity to antibody-mediated neutralization" does not correctly reflect the presented data (1) because the contribution by TMPRSS2-like enzymes was shown only when they were co-transfected during PV production, but not when they are expressed on the target cell surface, and (2) because "reduces sensitivity to antibody-mediated neutralization" was observed only for one S protein but was not observed for the other two trypsin-dependent S proteins. In addition, this point was made using one monoclonal Ab for trypsin-dependent entry, but not for the entry mediated by TMPRSS2-related enzymes as the title implies. The title sounds like the three points are interconnected and represent general phenomena. Perhaps a more accurate title could be "ACE2-independent sarbecovirus cell entry is supported by trypsin and may reduce sensitivity to a neutralizing antibody". __


      A1: __We appreciate the critique. From our perspective, the statement that ACE2-independent entry is supported by TMPRSS2-related enzymes is correct irrespective of whether these enzymes cleave the viral S protein during entry into uninfected cells or during S protein biogenesis in infected cells (in order to allow for subsequent ACE2-independent entry into uninfected cells). The reviewer is correct that rescue from antibody-mediated neutralization was only observed for one monoclonal antibody. However, we also obtained evidence that ACE2-independent entry allowed for evasion of neutralizing antibodies induced upon infection or vaccination. In order to avoid generalization, we phrased the title in a more careful fashion: "ACE2-independent sarbecovirus cell entry can be supported by TMPRSS2-related enzymes and can reduce sensitivity to antibody-mediated neutralization".

      __

      __Q2: In the Abstract, the authors state "Several TMPRSS2-related cellular proteases but not the insertion of a multibasic cleavage site into the S protein allowed for ACE2-independent entry in the absence of trypsin and may support viral spread in the respiratory tract" (lines 38-41) and "In sum, our study reports a pathway for entry into human cells that is ACE2-independent, supported by TMPRSS2-related proteases...." (lines 44-46). These sentences should be rewritten for the same reason described above for the Title. __


      __A2: __We feel that the statement that TMPRSS2-related enzymes can support ACE2-independent entry is correct. Thus, either trypsin pretreatment of particles or expression of TMPRSS2-related enzymes in particle producing cells allows for ACE2-independent entry. We rephrased our concluding sentence in a more careful fashion and now state: "In sum, our study reports a pathway for entry into human cells that is ACE2-independent, can be supported by TMPRSS2-related proteases and may be associated with antibody evasion."

      __Q3: The lines 102-105 say "...ACE2-independent, trypsin-dependent entry can modulate neutralization by the pan sarbecovirus antibody S2H97..." and the lines 427-9 say "...trypsin-dependent usage of an ACE2-independent entry pathway may result in slightly reduced susceptibility to neutralization by antibodies induced upon infection or vaccination." Because Fig 8 (S2H97 Ab) and Fig 9 (immune plasma) use Vero-ACE2-TMPRSS2 and A549-ACE2-TMPRSS2, respectively, "ACE2-independent," is incorrect here. __


      __A3: __We respectfully disagree. We have shown that certain spikes can facilitate entry into ACE2-expressing cell lines in an ACE2-dependent manner but switch to an ACE2-independent entry route upon pre-treatment of particles with trypsin and blockade of ACE2 by an antibody (Supplementary Figure 4C). In figure 8 and 9, we show that when the ACE2-dependent entry route is blocked by neutralizing antibodies, opening the ACE2-independent route reduces antibody-mediated neutralization. As a consequence, it is fair to conclude that our data indicate that usage of the ACE2-independent entry route may reduce neutralization sensitivity. We feel that this argument is further supported by our most recent data, shown as new figure 3C, which demonstrate that trypsin treatment not only allows for entry into ACE2+ cells pretreated with anti-ACE2 antibody but, more importantly, also permits entry into ACE2 KO cells.

      __

      Q4: The line 46 says "...and associated with antibody evasion", the lines 104-5 says "...and allows for partial antibody evasion in the context of plasma from COVID-19 vaccinees." and the lines 427-9 say "...may result in slightly reduced susceptibility to neutralization by antibodies..." The authors should rewrite them because the resistance to S2H97 Ab was observed with one S protein but all other trypsin-mediated entry was sensitive to S2H97 or immune plasma. __


      __A4: __We have phrased the sentences in question in a more careful fashion and now state:

      "Finally, the pan-sarbecovirus antibody S2H97 enhanced cell entry driven by two S proteins and this effect was reversed by trypsin while trypsin protected entry driven by a third S protein from neutralization by S2H97. Similarly, plasma from quadruple vaccinated individuals neutralized entry driven by all S proteins studied, and availability of the ACE2-independent, trypsin-dependent pathway reduced neutralization sensitivity. In sum, our study reports a pathway for entry into human cells that is ACE2-independent, can be supported by TMPRSS2-related proteases and may be associated with antibody evasion." (Abstract)

      "Finally, we obtained evidence that ACE2-independent, trypsin-dependent entry can modulate neutralization by the pan sarbecovirus antibody S2H97 in a spike-dependent fashion and allows for partial antibody evasion in the context of plasma from COVID-19 vaccinees." (end of introduction).

      "In sum, these results suggest that availability of the trypsin-dependent, ACE2-independent entry pathway may result in slightly reduced susceptibility to neutralization by antibodies induced upon infection or vaccination." (end of results section).

      __

      Q5: If trypsin- independent entry is still controlled by RBD, why LYRa11 and Rs7327 entry is enhanced by and RsSHC014 entry is resistant to S2H97 Ab? The authors may want to discuss possible explanations. __


      __A5: __It is at present unclear why trypsin-treatment increased S2H97-mediated inhibition of LYRa11- and Rs7327-S protein driven entry while it conferred S2H97-resistance to RsSHC014-S. One could speculate that slight differences in the S2H97 epitope of the three spike proteins alter antibody affinity and thus determine whether the antibody enhances or blocks entry.

      __

      Q6: Fig. 2B. The entry supported by ACE2 orthologs was normalized to that utilizing hACE2 after hACE2-supported entry was normalized to background entry (no-S PV). First, it is unclear why background entry is used for normalization instead of being subtracted. Second, two times of such normalization likely created huge experimental errors and might have skewed the outcomes. Thus, 14 PVs should be quantified by RT-qPCR and same genome copy number should be used to directly assess their usage of ACE2 orthologs. This way, normalization by hACE2 entry is not necessary. Background entry should be subtracted, not used for normalization. __


      __A6: __We respectfully disagree. It is fair to ask how much more efficient single cycle particles bearing a viral envelope protein enter target cells as compared to identical particles bearing no viral glycoprotein. Normalization of the data presented as a heat map (Figure 2C) was performed based on the raw data (not the "Fold over Background"-normalized data). Thus, data were only normalized once. Regarding the possibility that different particle numbers were used for the respective pseudoviruses, we would like to state that particle production efficiency was analyzed by immunoblot (based on VSV matrix protein levels) and no major differences for the different pseudoviruses were observed (please see new Supplementary figure 4A). Thus, we are confident that our results are not skewed by gross differences in pseudovirus particle numbers.

      __

      Q7: Because VSV PVs were harvested in culture media, there were serum and divalent cations. Were PVs purified before trypsin digestion? Digestion by trypsin or other proteases should be described in detail. __


      __A7: __Medium without serum was used for PV production to avoid inhibition of trypsin activity by serum components. For immunoblot samples, VSV PVs were further harvested from the culture medium and concentrated using 20% sucrose. The concentrated VSV PVs were aliquoted into separate tubes, each containing an equal volume, and treated with the specified concentrations of proteases at 37{degree sign}C, as detailed in the Materials and Methods section. Subsequently, the treated VSV PVs were mixed with an equal volume of 2x SDS loading buffer and heated at 96{degree sign}C for 10 minutes.

      __

      Q8: How was S2' fragment on the blot determined? Should be described. __


      A8: __The S2' fragment was determined based on the molecular size of the corresponding bands. This information has been added to the respective figure legends.

      Minor points.

      Q9: The line 129 says "...14 S proteins, representing all clades, were selected for detailed analyses". Correct the sentence because the S protein representing clade 5 is not included in the study. __


      A9: __We now state ""...14 S proteins, representing all clades except clade 5, were selected for detailed analyses"

      __

      __Q10: Fig 2. Because 14 S proteins and several TFR1 orthologs were used, a table describing which S isolate is derived from which animal species will help. Organizing Fig 2A and B in the same order will help reading the result. Also, indicate which clades those S proteins belong to. __


      __A10: __We have added a table providing detailed information on the spike proteins under study.


      Supplemental table 1: Information on the spike proteins under study.

      Spike

      Virus

      Identifier

      RBD clade

      Host

      Region

      SARS-2-S

      Human SARS-CoV-2 hCoV-19/Wuhan/Hu-1/2019

      GISAID: EPI_ISL_402125

      1b

      Human (Homo sapiens)

      Asia (China)

      RaTG13-S

      Bat SARSr-CoV hCoV-19/bat/Yunnan/RaTG13/2013

      GISAID: EPI_ISL_402131

      1b

      Bat (Rhinolophus affinis)

      Asia (China)

      P5L-S

      Pangolin SARSr-CoV hCoV-19/pangolin/Guangxi/P5L/2017

      GISAID: EPI_ISL_410540

      1b

      Malayan pangolin (Manis javanica)

      Asia (China)

      cDNA8-S

      Pangolin SARSr-CoV hCoV-19/pangolin/Guangdong/cDNA8-S/2019

      GISAID: EPI_ISL_471461

      1b

      Malayan pangolin (Manis javanica)

      Asia (China)

      Rs4081-S

      Bat SARSr-CoV Rs4081

      GenBank: KY417143.1

      2

      Bat (Rhinolophus sinicus)

      Asia (China)

      Rs4237-S

      Bat SARSr-CoV RS4237

      GenBank: KY417147.1

      2

      Bat (Rhinolophus sinicus)

      Asia (China)

      SARS-1-S

      Human SARS-CoV-1/Frankfurt-1

      GenBank: AY291315.1

      1a

      Human (Homo sapiens)

      Europe (Germany)

      WIV1-S

      Bat SARSr-CoV WIV1

      GenBank: KF367457.1

      1a

      Bat (Rhinolophus sinicus)

      Asia (China)

      LYRa11-S

      Bat SARSr-CoV LYRa11

      GenBank: KF569996.1

      1a

      Bat (Rhinolophus affinis)

      Asia (China)

      RsSHC014-S

      Bat SARSr-CoV RsSHC014

      GenBank: KC881005.1

      1a

      Bat (Rhinolophus sinicus)

      Asia (China)

      Rs4231-S

      Bat SARSr-CoV Rs4231

      GenBank: KY417146.1

      1a

      Bat (Rhinolophus sinicus)

      Asia (China)

      Rs4874-S

      Bat SARSr-CoV Rs4874

      GenBank: KY417150.1

      1a

      Bat (Rhinolophus sinicus)

      Asia (China)

      Rs7327-S

      Bat SARSr-CoV Rs7327

      GenBank: KY417151.1

      1a

      Bat (Rhinolophus sinicus)

      Asia (China)

      BM48-31-S

      Bat SARSr-CoV BM48-31/BGR/2008

      GenBank: GU190215.1

      3

      Rhinolophus blasii

      Europe (Bulgaria)

      __

      Q11: Fig S5. Describe cell lines used. __


      __A11: __We have added a table providing information on the cell lines used.


      Supplemental table 2: Information on the cell lines used.

      Cell line

      Species

      Organ

      Modification

      Culture medium

      Vero

      African green monkey (Cercopithecus aethiops)

      Kidney

      n.a.

      DMEM + 10% FCS + Pen/Strep

      Vero-ACE2+TMPRSS2

      African green monkey (Cercopithecus aethiops)

      Kidney

      Stable expression of human ACE2 and human TMPRSS2

      DMEM + 10% FCS + Pen/Strep + Blasticidin (2 µg/ml) + Puromycin (1 µg/ml)

      Vero-TMPRSS2

      African green monkey (Cercopithecus aethiops)

      Kidney

      Stable expression of human TMPRSS2

      DMEM + 10% FCS + Pen/Strep + Blasticidin (2 µg/ml)

      MyDauLu/47

      Bat (Myotis daubentonii)

      Lung

      n.a.

      DMEM + 10% FCS + Pen/Strep

      PipNi/3

      Bat (Pipistrellus pipistrellus)

      Kidney

      n.a.

      DMEM + 10% FCS + Pen/Strep

      Caco-2

      Human (Homo sapiens)

      Intestine

      n.a.

      MEM + 10% FCS 1% NEA + 10 mM sodium pyruvate + Pen/Strep + Puromycin (1 µg/ml)

      293T

      Human (Homo sapiens)

      Kidney

      n.a.

      DMEM + 10% FCS + Pen/Strep

      293T-ACE2

      Human (Homo sapiens)

      Kidney

      Stable expression of human ACE2

      DMEM + 10% FCS + Pen/Strep + Puromycin (1 µg/ml)

      Huh-7

      Human (Homo sapiens)

      Liver

      n.a.

      DMEM + 10% FCS + Pen/Strep

      Li7

      Human (Homo sapiens)

      Liver

      n.a.

      DMEM + 10% FCS + Pen/Strep

      A549-ACE2

      Human (Homo sapiens)

      Lung

      Stable expression of human ACE2

      DMEM/F-12 + 10% FCS + Pen/Strep + Puromycin (1 µg/ml)

      A549-ACE2+TMPRSS2

      Human (Homo sapiens)

      Lung

      Stable expression of human ACE2 and human TMPRSS2

      DMEM/F-12 + 10% FCS + Pen/Strep + Blasticidin (2 µg/ml) + Puromycin (1 µg/ml)

      Calu-3

      Human (Homo sapiens)

      Lung

      n.a.

      DMEM/F-12 + 10% FCS 1% NEA + 10 mM sodium pyruvate + Pen/Strep

      Calu-3-ACE2

      Human (Homo sapiens)

      Lung

      Stable expression of human ACE2

      DMEM/F-12 + 10% FCS 1% NEA + 10 mM sodium pyruvate + Pen/Strep + Puromycin (1 µg/ml)

      NCI-H522

      Human (Homo sapiens)

      Lung

      n.a.

      RPMI + 10% FCS 1% NEA + 10 mM sodium pyruvate + Pen/Strep

      BHK-21

      Syrian golden hamster (Mesocricetus auratus)

      Kidney

      n.a.

      DMEM + 10% FCS + Pen/Strep

      __ Q12: Fig 3 legend should indicate trypsin digestion condition (concentration and length). __


      __A12: __We have added the requested information to the respective figure legends.

      __

      Reviewer #1 (Significance (Required)):

      Because overwhelming amount of data bear large experimental errors, there are some discrepancies among the data presented. Nonetheless, most of each point the authors claim is largely supported by the data. The problem happened when the authors tried to connect the dots too much and thus overstated some conclusions. If the overstated conclusions are amended throughout the manuscript, presented data provide sufficiently useful information on sarbecovirus entry.

      __

      Thank you. We have rephrased our conclusions in a more careful fashion.


      __Reviewer #2 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):____

      SUMMARY: Recent work from several groups has shown that the majority of bat sarbecoviruses infect cells independent of ACE2, the receptor primarily used by sarbecoviruses that infect humans, and instead infect cells in the presence of exogenous protease including trypsin. In this study, Zhang and colleagues build on these earlier findings by demonstrating that ACE2-independent sarbecovirus entry can be mediated by other exogenous proteases and several different TMPRSS11 enzymes. Using in vitro based methods and viral pseudotypes, the authors reproduce previous findings with trypsin, demonstrate similar effects with alternative proteases and provide lines of evidence suggesting (1) trypsin treatment can impart ACE2-independence and that (2) ACE2-independence provides resistance to neutralizing antibodies. __


      Many thanks for evaluation our manuscript and for the constructive critique.__

      MAJOR COMMENTS:

      Q1: Defining sarbecovirus RBDs into clades by in del features has already been established by other groups and many studies across different disciplines now use these previously-established clades. The authors use slightly different nomenclature without any acknowledgment of the previously defined sarbecovirus RBD clades, which will lead to confusion between studies. For example, SARS-CoV-2 is generally regarded as a clade 1 RBD (with ACE2 use and both loops in tact), clade 3 includes BM48-31 and Khosta-2, clade 4 includes RatG15. __


      __A1: __We have changed the nomenclature of the different groups to "clusters" to avoid confusion. Further, we added for each cluster information on the RBD clade. Please see revised Figure 1.

      __

      Q2: Why did the authors select BM48-31 as the representative of its clade when other members of the clade have known receptors and clear phenotypes in lab assays? BM48-31 has largely failed in every lab assay by every group that has studied it. On the other hand, Khosta2 uses human ACE2, BtKY72 and other African sarbecoviruses can also use ACE2 from their host species and have low but detectable human ACE2 compatibility. It would be interesting to see how the antibody-resistance results compare with other ACE2-dependent sarbecoviruses. __


      __A2: __We have selected BM48-31 at a time when the information stated above was not available. We agree that testing additional spikes for neutralization sensitivity should be considered within future studies but also feel that solid conclusions can be drawn from the 13 spikes tested within this study.

      __

      Q3: What is the aurthors' proposed mechanism for how protease is functioning for ACE2-independent entry? For ACE2-dependent entry, TMPRSS2 cleaves spike after RBD engagement. However, in this study, TMPRSS11 enzymes only function when included in producer cells- prior to RBD engagement. Is TMPRSS11 cleaving spike during spike biogenesis (similar to furin for SARS-CoV-2) or is an alternative mechanism at play? Is TMPRSS11 secreted? If this is the case, then the enzyme may be functioning similar to the other exogenous proteases in this study. __


      __A3: __It is possible that pre-cleavage by a TMPRSS2-like enzymes (or trypsin) is needed for subsequent S protein activation by another protease, likely cathepsin B/L, for ACE2-independent entry. This would be similar to SARS-CoV-2 entry into lung cells, which depends on spike pre-cleavage by furin and spike cleavage-activation by TMPRSS2. Alternatively, the TMPRSS2-like enzymes may cleave spike at the RBD, with the cleavage eluding detection by the methods applied here, and this cleavage might be needed for engagement of the so far unknown receptor responsible for ACE2-independent entry. TMPRSS2-like enzymes can be shed into the extracellular space. However, we feel that extracellular TMPRSS-activity was not responsible for ACE2-independent entry since expression of TMPRSS2-like enzymes in target cells should have also resulted in protease shedding but failed to allow for ACE2-independent entry.

      __

      Q4: Related to comment 3: the authors study trypsin as a pre-treatment, but other studies have shown trypsin exerts activity during entry. How do the authors propose trypsin is functioning prior to RBD engagement? Is it possible that trypsin is not fully inactivated and remains partially active during entry? __


      A4: __For most experiments, trypsin was present/active during the whole entry process. Only for Figures 3B, 8 and 9 trypsin inhibitor was added prior to inoculation of target cells in order to discriminate effects of trypsin on virus particles and cells and to exclude that trypsin compromised the integrity of the antibodies under study. We speculate that trypsin cleavage even before receptor engagement can allow for ACE2-independent entry.

      __

      __Q5: I am not convinced that trypsin is driving ACE2-independent entry for ACE2-dependent viruses. The experiment performed in figure 3C is performed in African green monkey cells using an antibody directed toward human ACE2. The difference in species between antibody and antigen may influence how well the antibody binds ACE2 on the Vero cells, which may only block some ACE2-dependent viruses but not all. Curiously, the only ACE2-dependent spikes that gain "ACE2-independence" are also activated by trypsin. These blocking assay results would be more convincing in a human cell line, or a non-permissive cell line like BHKs that express the human receptor. Alternatively, knocking out ACE2 in the Vero cells may be another way to assess ACE2-independent entry. __


      __A5: __We have now examined entry into 293T WT and 293T ACE2 KO cells. Importantly, the same spikes that allow for trypsin-dependent entry into Vero-TMPRSS2 cells treated with anti-ACE2 antibody also allow for robust entry into 293T ACE2 KO cells when pretreated with trypsin, please see new figure 3C. These results confirm our previous data and validate our conclusion that some spikes facilitate ACE2-dependent entry but can switch to the ACE2-independent entry route upon pre-treatment with trypsin.

      __

      MINOR COMMENTS:

      Q6: line 148: Rs4237 is missing a clade designation __


      __A6: __Rs4237 belongs to the Asian bat cluster (RBD clade 2). This information has been added to the revised figure 1 and is further provided in the new supplemental table 1.

      __ Q7: Figure 3. The figure's main message could be improved by visually grouping the viruses according to clade. __


      __A7: __We modified all figures and now indicate for each spike to which RBD clade they belong.

      __

      Q8: Some details are missing for reproducibility, including the accession numbers of the TMPRSS enzymes used in this study __


      __A8: __We added the requested information to the Materials and methods section.

      __

      Q9: Contrary to claims in the text, this study includes a fairly small panel of spike proteins. Prior studies by Letko 2020, Starr 2022 and Roelle 2022 (cited by the authors) all measured entry for between 20-40 spikes - more twice the number in this study. __


      A9: __We apologize for the mistake and removed the statement that "...these analyses were confined to small numbers of S proteins and.."

      __

      __Q10: Line 472-473: the data presented in figure 2B shows SARS-CoV-2 has slightly better entry with pangolin ACE2 than raccoon dog. I am not sure the authors should cite this data in support of raccoon dogs as an intermediate for SARS-CoV-2. __


      A10: We feel that our statement that - based on ACE2 usage - raccoon dogs should be considered as intermediate hosts is valid since it refers to the finding that diverse sarbecoviruses used this ACE2 orthologue with highest efficiency.

      __

      Reviewer #2 (Significance (Required)):

      SIGNIFICANCE: This study provides some novel insights into proteases and sarbecovirus cell entry and highlights previously unappreciated entry factors that are key for some viruses. A major limitation of this study is its lack of mechanistic exploration. The authors data do not really elucidate how TMPRSS11 proteins mediate ACE2-independent entry, nor do the results explain how ACE2-independence is shielding viruses from neutralizing antibodies. Another limitation is in the choice of using a non-human cell line to study the blocking effect of an antibody directed toward a human protein. __


      We feel that our findings that TMPRSS2-related enzymes can support ACE2-independent entry and that ACE2-independnet entry might allow for some level of antibody evasion are novel and important. We would also like to point out that we employed a human ACE2 KO cell line to address the reviewer's reservations regarding use of a non-human primate cell line. The data obtained with the human KO cell line confirmed those obtained with anti-ACE2 antibody treated non-human primate cell line, validating our conclusions.

      __

      ADVANCE: This study nicely reproduces a number of previous findings, including: 1. sarbecovirus RBDs can be categorized into clades based on deletions in surface exposed loops 2. ACE2-independent, trypsin-dependent sarbecovirus entry - notably for Rs4081 3. the RBD in ACE2-independent sarbecoviruses controls entry 4. anti-ACE2 antibodies do not block entry for ACE2-independent sarbecoviruses as well as some ACE2-dependent sarbecoviruses 5. trypsin does not increase S proteins binding to cells 6. protease expression in target cells does not increase S-driven entry 7. a multi-basic cleavage site in spike does not compensate for exogenous protease in ACE2-independent entry

      This study has many novel advancements as well: 1. identification of other exogenous proteases that mediate ACE2-independent entry (elastase, thermolysin) 2. identification of TMPRSS11 family members that mediate trypsin-free entry for ACE2-independent viruses when produced in cells producing spike proteins but not target cells 3. ACE2-independent entry may reduce spike susceptibility to antibody neutralization __


      Thank you.__

      AUDIENCE: This study will appeal to the coronavirus research community.

      __



      __Reviewer #3 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):____

      Zhang et al. analyzed the infection mechanisms of various Sarbecovirus primarily using VSV pseudoviruses with individual Sarbecovirus S proteins. The study demonstrated that many Sarbecoviruses, similar to two Sarbecoviruses that do not exhibit infectivity without trypsin, gain infectivity in human cells after processing virus particles with trypsin. This trypsin treatment is closely associated with the cleavage of the S1/S2 site of the S protein. This study demonstrated that the infection of the two viruses is not dependent on ACE2 expression, suggesting infection through receptors other than ACE2. Indeed, this study indicates that the receptor-binding domain of the S protein determines these properties. Furthermore, this study shows that some ACE2-using Sarbecoviruses also acquire ACE2-independent infectivity after trypsin treatment of virus particles. Although similar phenomena have already been reported in some Sarbecoviruses, the data in this study are more extensive, systematically conducted, and thoroughly analyzed, providing sufficient and additional evidence for the points mentioned above. The weaknesses, if pointed out, are that little progress has been made in elucidating the detailed molecular mechanism of this ACE2-independent and trypsin-dependent infection. __


      Thank you very much for reviewing our manuscript and for the positive comments.__

      Q1: To improve the study, the authors may consider the following points: • The Immunoblot data showing the expression level of ACE2-expressing cells used in the analysis of Figure 2 should be presented rather than indicated as "data not shown." __


      __A1: __The immunoblot data are now shown as new supplemental figure 3, panel B, and reveal robust expression of all ACE2 orthologues analyzed.


      __ Q2: In the explanation of Figure 2, it is stated, "all S proteins studied efficiently employed human ACE2 (lines 165-166)," but since there are significant differences in utilization levels, this description needs modification. Is it appropriate to normalize the utilization ability of human ACE2 as "1" in Figure 2B? Supplementary Figure 4 may be more relevant, and it should be considered to use it as a regular figure. __


      __A2: __We modified the text to indicate that although most spike proteins readily interacted with human ACE2, interaction efficacies greatly varied among the spike proteins ("*Thus, all S proteins studied employed human ACE2 for entry with the exception of the aforementioned S proteins of BM48-31, Rs4081 and Rs4237, which had also failed to bind to ACE2 (Figure 2B). However, although most sarbecovirus S proteins were able to readily utilize human ACE2 as an entry receptor, notable differences were observed. For instance, while *

      Particles bearing SARS-2-S, P5L-S, SARS-1-S, WIV-1-S, or Rs4874-S robustly entered BHK-21 cells expressing human ACE2, entry of particles carrying RaTG13-S, cDNA8-S, LYRa11-S, RsSHC014-S, Rs4231-S, or Rs7327-S was roughly 10- to 500-fold less efficient (Figure 2B).", see pages 7-8, lines 182-197). Further, we agree that Figure S4 contains important information for the reader and thus moved the data to main Figure 2 (as new panel B).


      __ Q3: It is concluded that Raccoon dog ACE2 is the most functional ACE2, but is it possible to quantitatively evaluate the level of difference in expression, which is challenging to adjust experimentally? It may be necessary to present data on expression levels or to pay attention to the interpretation of the data. __


      __A3: __The immunoblot data on ACE2 expression are now shown as new supplemental figure 3, panel B-C, and reveal roughly comparable expression of all ACE2 orthologues analyzed.


      __ Q4: No data are presented indicating the functionality of the BM48-31 S protein. While it is assumed that this S protein cannot function as a receptor, it cannot be denied that it may not be adequately expressed. __


      __A4: __Expression of all S proteins studied was readily detectable including BM48-31 S protein, although expression of P5L-S, cDNA8-S and BM4831-S was decreased. Please see new supplementary figure 4, panel A. Consequently, lack of cell entry by pseudoviruses bearing BM48-31-S may in fact be due to inefficient S protein incorporation into particles. This is now stated on page 8, lines 201-202.

      __ Q5: What is meant by "little impact" compared to what is mentioned? (line 306) __


      __A5: __We modified the text for clarity. The paragraph now states: "Expression of TMPRSS11A, TMPRSS11E and furin in cells producing SARS-1-S bearing particles as well as trypsin-treatment slightly improved generation of the S2 fragment (which results from cleavage at the S1/S2 site) (Figure 5E, left panel). Further, TMPRSS11D expression strongly increased production of the S2 fragment and the S2' fragment (which results from cleavage at the S2' site) while TMPRSS2 and TMPRSS13 expression and trypsin treatment only augmented production of the S2' fragment and decreased production of the S2 fragment (Figure 5E)." (please see page 14, lines 346-354).

      __

      __

      __Q6: Although VSV pseudoviruses are used to evaluate infectivity, in experiments using different conditions (e.g., Figure 5F), how is the amount of VSV pseudovirus for infection adjusted to a similar level? __


      __A6: __For infection of target cells, VSV pseudoviruses were normalized for volume. Immunoblot analysis revealed the particle preparations contained comparable amounts of VSV M protein, please see new supplemental figure 4, panel A.


      __ Q7: Citation of the paper. (lines 474-476) __


      __A7: __The requested citations have been inserted.

      __ Q8: What does "(-)" in Supplementary Figure 4 indicate? __


      A8: "(-) in former figure S4 (now Figure 2B) indicates empty vector. For clarity (and conformity with the other figures), we have changed the label to "No Spike".


      __ Q9: Is it appropriate to indicate the value of 'Pseudovirus Entry' with background fold ratio ('Fold over Background') in Figure 4B, etc (for example)? __


      __A9: __We feel that adding numerical values indicating the fold change ratios to our graphs would "overload" the figures and reduce clarity of the presented data.



      __ Reviewer #3 (Significance (Required)):

      This study is a comprehensive investigation into the function of the S protein of various Sarbecoviruses within the Coronaviridae family. The S protein is one of the most crucial proteins determining the infectivity of coronaviruses, and understanding the receptors and host cell proteases involved in cleaving the S protein is essential. The importance of furin and TMPRSS2 as proteases, and ACE2 as a receptor, has been clearly demonstrated in the infection of SARS-CoV-2, making them the foremost molecules to understand about SARS-CoV-2. However, in this study, the authors have clearly shown the existence of other significant modes of infection (independent of ACE2 and reliant on other proteases), thereby providing clear significance in this regard. Nevertheless, the current weakness, if point out, lies in the need for more depth of understanding of the specific molecular mechanisms underlying this novel mode of infection. __


      Thank you.


    1. Note: This response was posted by the corresponding author to Review Commons. The content has not been altered except for formatting.

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      Reply to the reviewers

      1. General Statements

      We are grateful for the valuable, constructive comments of the reviewers, which helped to substantially improve the quality of our manuscript. We particularly agree that the original structure of the manuscript was confusing and in parts misleading, since we followed the history of the project, which first identified the RBM39 mediated impact on IRF3 expression, whereas the -omics studies, identifying additional factors, were done at a far later point. Many discrepancies further arose from the low sensitivity of our initial proteomics analysis, which we now repeated, thereby obtaining far more sensitive detection of the key factors we also found in the transcriptomics data.

      We have re-structured the entire manuscript by moving the -omics data from the end of the paper towards the middle and provide similar depth downstream analysis of all relevant key factors identified (RIG-I/MDA5, IFN receptors, STAT1/2), to reduce the focus on IRF3, as suggested. We further changed the title and abstract to reflect this major conceptual change. Thanks to this helpful comment, we think that our manuscript is now conceptually much clearer.

      We further added new data to support the central claims of our manuscript, including a repetition of the proteomics study. Proteomics and transcriptomics now consistently demonstrate the impact of RMB39 knockdown as well as indisulam treatment on several key factors of innate immunity, including IRF3, STAT1/2, RIG-I and MDA5 (now in Fig. 5), with IFNAR2 and IL10RB additionally found in transcriptomics. We provide additional functional evidence that IRF3 is the key factor affected in the TLR3 pathway (IRF3 overexpression, Fig. 6B, C), whereas diminished abundance of RIG-I/MAD5 is equally important in the respective pathway, thereby also affecting NF-κB response (Fig. 6F-I). We further show the functional significance of IFN-receptor/STAT downregulation on type I and III IFN responses (Fig. 7E-G).

      The reviewers also pointed to some datasets showing the expected trends, but in some cases lacking statistical significance, due to variability in knockdown efficiency. We repeated all mentioned datasets with new batches of siRNA with sufficient biological replicates (n=3). We thereby obtained consistent, statistically significant data in all cases. Importantly, all experiments implementing the RMB39.esc control now show consistent rescue (Fig2. A-E).

      To generate a homogenous experimental design for virus infections, we further added new data showing a comparable impact of siRNA knockdown (Fig. 3F) and indisulam treatment (new Fig. 3G) on Sendai virus infection in A549 cells and took this as a rationale to consistently use indisulam for all other infections.

      2. Point-by-point description of the revisions

      __Reviewer #1 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)): __ This manuscript by Li and colleagues examines the role of RBM39 in innate immune signaling. Splicing factor RBM39 was identified through a genome wide screen with a death reporter under control of the IFIT1 promoter that got stimulated with pIC in a TLR3-dependent manner. Besides IFIT1, further experiments showed that RBM39 is also involved in optimal expression of other innate immunity genes like IFNB, CXCL10, RIG-I or MDA5. While NFkB-dependent genes seem not to depend on RBM39, for IRF3 it was shown that protein levels decrease under conditions of RBM39 depletion, because IRF3 mRNAs are (slightly) reduced and spliced differently. The sulfonamid Indisulam could largely recapitulate the phenotype of RBM39 depletion. Further analyses using proteomics and transcriptomics showed that RBM39 is required for mRNA splicing and expression of a large set of other proteins. Altogether, this well designed and written study highlights the fundamental role played by RBM39 in in maintaining the pathways of immunity and metabolism. The key conclusions are convincing but some additional experiments would strengthen them further.

      We are grateful for the very positive general comments of this reviewer.

      Major comments: - For the statistics, authors seem not to have done multiple tests but rather tested individual datasets within larger graphs against each other. Please explain where this is the case and use corrections if multiple testing was done

      We apologize for not have been clearer here, we indeed used multiple testing. In the proteomics, statistical significance was evaluated by "two-sample tests" (Student's T-test with permutation-based FDR 0.05 and 250 number of randomizations). For the analysis of RNAseq data, p values were calculated with the Wald test and corrected for multiple testing according to Benjamini-Hochberg. We have now included this information in the materials and methods section and in the respective figure legends.

      • Fig. 4 shows that RBM39 depletion reduces IFIT expression in virus infected cells and slightly increases virus replication. RBM39 has a major effect on IRF3 levels, but also on other players in innate immunity. What happens if IRF3 is ectopically expressed as in figure 5? With this experiment one could measure how high the contribution of IRF3 miss-splicing is to innate immunity.

      We thank this reviewer for the valuable suggestion. We restructured the entire manuscript, to address several reviewer comments regarding the focus on IRF3 and the lack of data on other factors in the pathway. We now clearly demonstrate that ectopic IRF3 expression entirely rescues the TLR3 response to poly(I:C) in PH5CH cells (Fig. 6B-C), which also explains the lack of impact on the NF-κB pathway (Fig. 2G-H). In contrast, overexpression of IRF3 does not rescue the RIG-I/MDA5 response in A549 cells (new data, Fig. 6F-I). Here, also the NF-κB pathway is affected by knockdown of RBM39, suggesting that reduced RIG-I/MDA5 abundance upon RMB39 knockdown substantially contributed to the diminished innate immune response.

      • Fig. 4 A uses siRNAs but B, C and D only indisulam treatment. It would be better if siRNAs would also be used for the other viruses.

      We agree that a homogenous setup for virus infection would be favorable, however, the use of different cell lines was authorative due to limited permissivess of the used cell types towards virus infection and it appeared challenging to achieve similar knockdown efficiencies. To generate a homogenous experimental design, we now added new data showing a comparable impact of siRNA knockdown (Fig. 3F) and indisulam treatment (new Fig. 3G) on Sendai virus infection in A549 cells and took this as a rationale to consistently use indisulam for all other infections.

      • RBM39 depletion strongly reduces IRF3 levels in the WB, but not so much in RT-PCR and not at all in proteomics. Is the antibody used for WB perhaps recognizing a domain that is underrepresented in isoforms after disturbed splicing? Please clarify.

      Our previous proteomics data suffered from a very low sensitivity, therefore we missed clear detection of many factors, including IRF3. We repeated the whole proteomics analysis with siRNA and indisulam treatment (new Fig. 5A, B) and now found significantly reduced IRF3 protein levels in both conditions (new Fig. S5C), in agreement with the WB data. The lower impact on IRF3 mRNA abundance is due to the additional contribution of alternative splicing (Fig. 6A, Fig. S6A-D), which both in combination affect protein abundance.

      • Volcano plots in figure 7 show a lot of hits obtained after both RBM38 siRNA and indisulam (green dots), and some that are additionally identified in transcriptomes and in proteomes (red dots). Nonetheless only innate immunity and stress response genes are marked, although they do not belong to these highly conserved classes. Please elaborate more on the most RBM39-dependent genes, e.g. by presenting them in a heat map.

      To our knowledge, our study is the first with a comprehensive comparison on the impact of RBM39 knockdown and indisulam treatment on the host cell proteome and transcriptome. However, several studies already did -omics studies on individual conditions/readouts (e.g. (Coomar et al, 2023; Dou et al, 2023; Mai et al, 2016; Nijhuis et al, 2022)). These studies already identified and described in detail key changes in transcriptome and proteome e.g. affecting genes involved in cell cycle control and metabolism, which we find as well. However, the novelty of our paper is the impact on innate immune response, we therefore rather decided to put an even stronger focus on these genes and to omit other factors, like stress response pathway components, etc.. This strategy is supported by the higher sensitivity of our new proteome analysis, which now generated a far better overlap with the transcriptomics, favoring a display setting on highlighting only those factors that were further analyzed in detail in the volcano blots (Fig. 5). Still, interested readers will find the comprehensive list of data in the supplementary Excel-datasheets as well as in our primary data in online depositories.

      Minor comments: - Some abbreviations are not explained, like PGK, siNT, siVTN

      We apologize and have added the missing explanation of abbreviations.

      • Welsch should read Welch

      Corrected.

      • Fig. 2H: were cells also stimulated and if yes, how?

      These were unstimulated conditions, to show the impact of RBM39 on basal expression of the IFNlambda receptor chains. However, we deleted this dataset due to the re-organisation of the manuscript. The analysis of the type I and type III receptor and STAT1/2 expression is now comprehensively shown in Fig. 7/S6E, F, solely based on the transcriptomic data for consistency reasons, along with the functional impact on the IFN response.

      • Fig. 6E: I cannot see a difference between to IRF3-203 and 228 isoforms. And what are the white boxes?

      • Also 6E: Location of the primers is barely visible

      Due to the re-organization of the manuscript these data are now shown in Fig. S6D. Both isoforms are indeed very similar and only differ by a very small (16nt) additional exon in isoform 228. The white boxes are exons not translated in the respective isoforms. We have included this important information in the legend to Fig. S6 and increased the arrows indicating the positions of the primer.

      • Some materials are not properly referenced, like the death reporter, the lentiviral system, or the Rift Valley fever luciferase virus

      We are sorry for the missing information, which has now been added to the materials and methods section.

      • Supplement has no page numbers

      We have added page numbers to the supplementary information.

      Reviewer #1 (Significance (Required)):

      The study advances our knowledge about the regulation of innate immunity. Strengths are the discovery of a novel layer of innate immunity regulation by splicing and the in-depth analysis of the importance of RBM39 for cellular gene expression. A potential weakness might be the focus on innate immunity as other biological functions seem even more dependent on RBM39. However, this reviewer sees the necessity that covering all aspects of RBM39 finction would be beyond the scope of a single study. The relevant literature is appropriately cited (except for some materials, see minor comments). Results will be of interest not only to people doing basic research on innate immunity, but also to those interested in gene regulation in general or to cancer researchers using indisulam

      __Reviewer #2 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)): __ The authors performed a CRISPR-based screen for genes required for TLR3-mediated signaling and gene expression in Hepatoma cells. Interferon-stimulated expression of an apoptosis inducer was used as a read-out system. A number of candidate genes were identified and one of these, RBM39, investigated in detail. The protein has previously been linked to both transcriptional control and RNA processing. Validation studies confirm that reduction of cellular RBM39 results in less TLR3-mediated IFN-beta synthesis and lower levels of ISG mRNA synthesis. Initial studies suggest a role of RBM39 in regulating of IRF3 levels, the transcription factor activated by TLR3 signaling to induce IFN-beta synthesis. However, the effect is variable and poorly supported by transcriptomic and proteomic data. Moreover, only one out of four cell-based viral infection models reports a substantial effect of the RBM39 knockdown.

      We apologize for the lack of consistency among several datasets, which was mainly due to the low sensitivity of the proteomic analysis. This has been repeated and now fully confirms all other data. In part due to the comments of this reviewer, we further broadened the scope of the manuscript away from IRF3, including a change of the title.

      Major comments:

      1. The data do not support the claim that RBM39 is a broadly acting player in innate immune responses. In addition, they suggest that IRF3 may not be the only relevant RBM39 target. The most informative knockdown control in this regard would be IRF3 siRNA.

      We have re-structured the entire manuscript and added new data to support the central claims of our manuscript, including a repetition of the proteomics study. Proteomics and transcriptomics now consistently demonstrate the impact of RMB39 knockdown as well as indisulam treatment on several key factors of innate immunity, including IRF3, STAT1/2, RIG-I and MDA5 (now in Fig. 5), with IFNAR2 and IL10RB additionally found in transcriptomics. We further provide functional evidence that IRF3 is the key factor affected in the TLR3 pathway (IRF3 overexpression, Fig. 6B, C), whereas diminished abundance of RIG-I/MAD5 is equally important in the respective pathway, thereby also affecting NF-κB response (Fig. 6F-I). We further show the functional significance of IFN-receptor/STAT downregulation on type I and III IFN responses (Fig. 7E-G). We hope this reviewer now agrees with our claim that RBM39 is a broadly acting player in innate immune responses.

      1. The structure of the manuscript is rather confusing because IRF3 is presented as the main RBM39 target in figures 3-6, but the -omics data in figures 7 and 8 do not support this view. The authors argue different sensitivities of the experimental approaches, but I think few people would agree that western blots are more sensitive than MS. To my opinion a narrative with less focus on IRF3 and a broader integration of candidates of the -omics approaches would be preferable.

      We are grateful for this valuable comment and fully agree that the original structure of the manuscript was confusing and in parts misleading, which was mainly due to the fact that we followed the history of the project, which first identified the RBM39 mediated impact on IRF3 expression, whereas the -omics studies, identifying additional factors, were done at a far later point. Many discrepancies further arose from the low sensitivity of our proteomics analysis, which we now repeated, thereby obtaining far more sensitive detection of the key factors we also found in the transcriptomics data. We now moved the -omics data from the end of the paper towards the middle and provide similar depth downstream analysis of all relevant key factors identified (RIG-I/MDA5, IFN receptors, STAT1/2, to reduce the focus on IRF3, as suggested. We further changed the title and abstract to reflect this major conceptual change. Thanks to this helpful comment, we think that our manuscript is now conceptually much clearer.

      Investigating the role of RBM39 by RNA-seq in pIC-treated cells would further strengthen the manuscript. It will yield a broader view of the protein's role in induced innate immunity.

      We did not add pIC treatment to the RNA-seq analysis, since, based on own experience and numerous papers, this will change the expression of literally thousands of genes. Based on the key factors of the pIC response modulated by RBM39 (RLRs and IRF3), this would very likely simply result in reduced induction of the whole ISG panel (as exemplified for IFIT1, ISG15, MxA and CXCL10 in Fig. 2B-E).

      3.The results in figures 6A-C are confusing for two reasons. First, the siRNA-mediated knockdown should result in reduced RBM39 protein as well (as shown in Fig. 3A) and, therefore, in an increase in RBM39 levels. Second, why was this effect not noted in the experiments shown in figs. 1-5? To avoid this confusion it might be good to mention which IRF3 splice isoforms are detected by the primers and antibodies used in these figures.

      Unfortunately, the reviewer seems to have conceptually misinterpreted Fig. 6A-C of the original paper, which did not show protein, but transcriptome data. We now added the corresponding data of the proteomic analysis in the new Fig. S5, for all detectable, relevant candidates, showing consistency to all previous data. The confusing point in previous Fig. 6B, which the reviewer appears to refer to, is the upregulation of RBM39 transcript levels upon indisulam treatment, which was not apparent in previous experiments, since we always used WB to show diminished RBM39 protein levels upon indisulam treatment. This increase in RBM39 mRNA is due to an autoregulation of RBM39 mRNA by protein abundance, which has been reported in literature (Campagne et al, 2023). Since this is rather confusing and not relevant for our study, we removed previous Fig. 6B and show this aspect only in the volcano blot in Fig. 5D, mentioning and citing the paper on autoregulation.

      Minor comments.

      1. Fig S1: the figure panels and legend are inconsistent. IFIT1 is labeled as ISG56 in panel S1A.

      We apologie for this inconsistency and now use IFIT1 throughout the paper.

      1. Data with the siRNA escape mutant of RBM39 are inconsistent. For example, why is its effect significantly different only in 1 out of 4 ISG in figures S2A-D?

      We apologize for the inconsistency, which is due to variability of silencing efficiency. We repeated the entire set of experiments (n=3) with a new batch of siRNA and obtained comparable, significant differences for all ISGs analyzed (new Fig. 2B-E).

      1. Line 164: the statement that TRIF and RBM39 siRNAs produce effects of similar magnitude is incorrect for the IFIT1 gene in figure S2A.

      This experiment was repeated (see previous point), now obtaining significant, more homogenous data. We have modified the text accordingly.

      4.Fig. 2H: In absence of additional evidence for functional implications, the data showing reduced IL10RB expression should be omitted.

      We omitted the data, as suggested by the reviewer, however, we provide a more in depth analysis of the type I and III IFN response in Fig. 7, based on the transcriptomic data and a functional analysis.

      5.Fig. 3: More datapoints would be needed in panel A to sustain the lack of significant difference between the untreated and escape mutant samples. Are the viability data in panels B and C normalized to untreated cells to control for Indisulam toxicity? In figure S3A the effect of the mutant is rather small. To allow for comparison, the Indisulam titration curves should be adapted to the concentrations used in Fig. 3.

      Fig. 3 (now Fig. 4) was replaced by another representative experiment, now also containing the quantification of the shown western blots, however, the statistical analysis shown in the previous version was and is based on three independent biological replicates, as indicated in the figure legend. Viability data was normalized to controls and this information is now added to the figure lengend as well. The mutant analyzed in Fig. S3A (now S4A) confers only partial resistance, which explains the limited but clear rescue. We did not include higher indisulam concentrations here due to the increased cytotoxicity of concentration above 5 µM in PH5CH, in the absence of pronounced additional effects on RBM39 abundance (Fig. 4B).

      6.RNA-seq measures steady-state RNA, not transcription.

      This is of course correct, we changed all sentences, where our wording might have indicated that we are measuring transcription by RNAseq. However, we still need to differentiate between the role of RBM39 in transcriptional regulation and splicing, where changes in RNA abundance found in RNAseq rather point to transcriptional regulation.

      Reviewer #2 (Significance (Required)):

      The identification of RBM39 as a candidate player in innate immune responses is of interest to a large scientific community with interest in signalling by pattern recognition receptors. Its role should be strengthened with additional infection models. It is puzzling that three out of four viruses don't benefit from the reduced IFN-beta synthesis in the RBM39 knockdown. Moreover, the data are not convincing (or too diverse) to nail down IRF3 as a major, or the most relevant, RBM39 target.

      __Reviewer #3 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)): __ CRISPR Screen for factors that are required for dsRNA-dependent ISG production. Found a large number of hits but most did not validate in subsequent assays. The authors follow up the one candidate that did pass secondary screening criteria, RBM39, although re-expression of RBM39 only rescues the phenotype of the siRNAs against RBM39 (siRBM39) in one of the two cell lines tested. Additionally, siRBM39 impacts only a subset of polyIC-induced ISGs and does not regulate NFkB-driven gene expression. They go on to attempt to investigate the impact of siRBM39 on other key innate immune genes and proteins, although many key controls and appropriate methods are missing.

      We thank this reviewer for pointing at inconsistencies and missing controls in our manuscript. We have critically re-evaluated the respective datasets.

      Major comments: 1) The authors propose some rationale for the limited success of the screen, however, while RBM39 may have a role in dsRNA-induced innate immunity, in general the screen seems to have limited value.

      The aim of our CRISPR/Cas9 death reporter screen was the identification of so far unknown contributors to innate immune response. This was achieved by identifying a critical role of RBM39, followed by an in depth validation focusing on RBM39. We further found known components of the TLR3 pathway in our candidate list (e.g. TRIF and UNC93B1), pointing to the overall quality of the experimental setup. At no point of the manuscript we claim that our screen aimed for or delivered a comprehensive overview on innate immunity pathways. Honestly, no comparable screen (e.g. on cytopathic viruses) has delivered such data.

      2) Given that the siRBM39 clearly has off-target effects (since expression of a resistant RBM39 cDNA only gives limited rescue in many cases - Fig S2), each of the experiments in which siRBM39 is used (i.e. Fig 2) should have the RBM39.esc control - especially those that drive subsequent experiments such as the expression of IFNbeta and IFNLR1 (Fig 2a, h)

      The inconsistency in some datasets, showing all the same trends, but in some cases lacking statistical significance was due to variability in knockdown efficiency. We repeated all mentioned datasets with new batches of siRNA with sufficient biological replicates (n=3) with now all of them revealing consistent, statistically significant data. Importantly, all experiments implementing the RMB39.esc control now show consistent rescue.

      3) Since RBM39 reduction has an apparent impact even if IFNLR1-deficient cells (although need the rescue control to know if this is real) the authors conclude that RBM39 regulates the initial wave of dsRNA signaling-events, but this should be tested with the use of Ruxilitinib to block JAK-STAT signaling.

      Due to the general major re-organization of the manuscript, aiming for a less confusing data presentation and consistency towards depth of candidate evaluation, we have removed the data on the IFNLR-deficient cell line. The claim that RBM39 affects the initial wave of ISG responses is based on reduced IFNb expression, which is exclusively induced by the initial wave of ISG response and by the general impact on ISG expression, which we measure at 6h after induction, too early for autocrine IFN stimulation (Burkart et al, 2023). However, we further demonstrate that downregulation of type I and type III IFN receptors in conjunction with STAT1/2 affect the type I and the type III IFN response as well (Fig. 7E-G, in part new data). Therefore, RBM39 affects both, the intial wave and the auto-/paracrine IFN response, and we therefore undertook no further efforts to separate these effects.

      4) IRF3 expression in the Indisulam-treated cells more closely tracks cell viability than RBM39 expression. For example in Fig 3C 10 microM gives 50% IRF3 expression and 50% viability but still 95% RBB39 expression - arguing that the impact of siRBM39 on IRF3 might be very indirect (and error bars on rescue are large so unclear if the rescue really worked in Fig 3A).

      Based on this reviewer comment we re-evaluated the quantification in previous Fig. 3C (now Fig. 4C), which combines data from three independent experiments. We deeply apologize, but the initial quantification proved to be wrong, due erroneous background subtraction, which was relatively high in one of the PHH-replicates (Replicate 1, see Reviewer Fig. 1 in uploaded file). The re-evaluated quantification revealed 55% for the RBM39 abundance at 10µM indisulam, which better reflects the data shown and is now in line with the impact on cytotoxicity and IRF3 abundance.

      5) It is unclear in Fig 4 why some cell/virus combinations are tested with siRBM39 and others are tested with Indisulam. Also the conclusion that RBM39 "substantially contributes to the cell intrinsic innate immune response to viral infections" is greatly overstated given that the differences are between ~3 fold and non-significant.

      We agree that a homogenous setup for virus infection would be favorable, however, the use of different cell lines was authoritave due to limited permissivess of the used cell types towards virus infection and it appeared challenging to achieve similar knockdown efficiencies. To generate a homogenous experimental design, we now added new data showing a comparable impact of siRNA knockdown (Fig. 3F) and indisulam treatment (new Fig. 3G) on Sendai virus infection in A549 cells and took this as a rationale to consistently use indisulam for all other infections. Overall, the aim of the virus infection experiments was using a variety of natural triggers of innate immunity beyond synthetic poly(I:C). Here we found indeed significant reductions of ISG induction for all viruses tested, similar to poly(I:C), this is the basis for the statement that RBM39 contributes the cell intrinsic innate immune response to viral infections. Our experimental design did not intend to see pronounced effects on viral replication, this was only measured to secure that reduced ISG induction was not due to inhibition of viral replication. We have explained this strategy now clearer and tuned down corresponding statements, to exclude potential overinterpretation of the data.

      6) Neither DTU/DRIMseq or qPCR are valid methods to measure splice isoform differences. The authors need to use rMATS or MAJIQ and validate by gel-based RT-PCR.

      Output generated by modern alignment algorithms like salmon is suitable for studies on an isoform level (Love et al, 2018) and has been used in a variety of studies (e.g.(Jabs et al, 2020; Xiong et al, 2023). MAJIQ and rMATS are only superior tools if the detection of so far unknown isoforms is of interest (Love et al., 2018), which is beyond the scope of this project. We have validated the data for IRF3 in RT-qPCR, showing close to identical results to the DTU analysis (compare Fig. 6A and S6D). We disagree that a gel-based RT-PCR analysis would be superior here, due to the lack of quantification.

      7) The conclusions from the proteomic and transcriptomic analyses should be treated with extreme caution given the caveats of methodology and controls discussed above.

      We are aware of the caveats of these technologies. The previous proteomic analysis indeed suffered from low sensitivity, failing to detect essential candidates like IRF3. The repetition of the experiment (new Fig. 5A, B, new Fig. S5) now revealed data very consistent with the transcriptomic data. Overall, the strength of our approach is the direct comparison of siRNA based RBM39 knockdown and RBM39 depletion by indisulam throughout transcriptomics and proteomics analyses. The wide overlap argues for the validity of our data and suggests that we thereby circumvented many caveats.

      Reviewer #3 (Significance (Required)):

      Innate immune signaling is a complex and essential pathway for maintaining health. While much is known about key components of this pathway, additional regulators are likely to exist. This manuscript describes an attempt to identify new regulators of dsRNA-mediated gene expression.

      References

      Burkart SS, Schweinoch D, Frankish J, Sparn C, Wust S, Urban C, Merlo M, Magalhaes VG, Piras A, Pichlmair A et al (2023) High-resolution kinetic characterization of the RIG-I-signaling pathway and the antiviral response. Life Sci Alliance 6

      Campagne S, Jutzi D, Malard F, Matoga M, Romane K, Feldmuller M, Colombo M, Ruepp MD, Allain FH (2023) Molecular basis of RNA-binding and autoregulation by the cancer-associated splicing factor RBM39. Nat Commun 14: 5366

      Coomar S, Mota P, Penson A, Schwaller J, Abdel-Wahab O, Gillingham D (2023) Overlaid Transcriptional and Proteome Analyses Identify Mitotic Kinesins as Important Targets of Arylsulfonamide-Mediated RBM39 Degradation. Mol Cancer Res 21: 768-778

      Dou Z, Zhang X, Su W, Zhang T, Ye F, Zhao D, Chen X, Li Q, Zhang H, Di C (2023) Indisulam exerts anticancer effects via modulation of transcription, translation and alternative splicing on human cervical cancer cells. Am J Cancer Res 13: 2922-2937

      Jabs S, Biton A, Becavin C, Nahori MA, Ghozlane A, Pagliuso A, Spano G, Guerineau V, Touboul D, Giai Gianetto Q et al (2020) Impact of the gut microbiota on the m(6)A epitranscriptome of mouse cecum and liver. Nat Commun 11: 1344

      Love MI, Soneson C, Patro R (2018) Swimming downstream: statistical analysis of differential transcript usage following Salmon quantification. F1000Res 7: 952

      Mai S, Qu X, Li P, Ma Q, Cao C, Liu X (2016) Global regulation of alternative RNA splicing by the SR-rich protein RBM39. Biochim Biophys Acta 1859: 1014-1024

      Nijhuis A, Sikka A, Yogev O, Herendi L, Balcells C, Ma Y, Poon E, Eckold C, Valbuena GN, Xu Y et al (2022) Indisulam targets RNA splicing and metabolism to serve as a therapeutic strategy for high-risk neuroblastoma. Nat Commun 13: 1380

      Xiong L, Liu J, Han SY, Koppitch K, Guo JJ, Rommelfanger M, Miao Z, Gao F, Hallgrimsdottir IB, Pachter L et al (2023) Direct androgen receptor control of sexually dimorphic gene expression in the mammalian kidney. Dev Cell 58: 2338-2358 e2335

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Although the manuscript is well organized and written, it could be largely improved and therefore made more plausible and easier to read. See my point-by-point comments listed below:

      (1) The introduction section is a bit overloaded with some unnecessary information. For example, the authors discussed the relationship between neurotransmitters in the prefrontal and striatum and substance use/sustained attention. However, the results are related to neither the neurotransmitters nor the striatum. In addition, there is a contradictory description about neurotransmitters there, Nicotine/THC leads to increased neurotransmitters, and decreased neurotransmitters is related to poor sustained attention. Does that mean that the use of Nicotine/THC could increase sustained attention?

      Thanks for this insightful question. We understand your concern regarding the seemingly contradictory statements about neurotransmitters and sustained attention. Previous studies have shown that acute administration of nicotine can improve sustained attention (Lawrence et al., 2002; Potter and Newhouse, 2008; Valentine and Sofuoglu, 2018; Young et al., 2004). On the other hand, the acute effects of smoking cannabis on sustained attention are mixed and depend on factors such as dosage and individual differences (Crean et al., 2011). For instance, a previous study (Hart et al., 2001) found that performance on a tracking task, which requires sustained attention, was found to improve significantly after smoking cannabis with a high dose of THC, albeit in experienced cannabis users. However, chronic substance use, including nicotine and cannabis, has been associated with impaired sustained attention (Chamberlain et al., 2012; Dougherty et al., 2013).

      To address your concerns and improve clarity and succinctness of the Introduction, we have removed the description of neurotransmitters from the Introduction. This revision should make the introduction more concise and focus on the direct relationships pertinent to our study.

      (2) It is a bit hard to follow the story for the readers because the Results section went straight into detail. For example, the authors directly introduced that they used the ICV from the Go trials to index sustained attention without basic knowledge about the task. Why use the ICV of Go trials instead of other trials (i.e., successful stop trials) as an index of sustained attention? I suggest presenting the subjects and task details about the data before the detailed behavioral results. The results section should include enough information to understand the presenting results for the readers, rather than forcing the reader to find the answer in the later Methods section.

      We appreciate your suggestion to provide more context about the task and ICV before diving into the detailed behavioural results.

      We used the ICV derived from the Go trials instead of Success stop trials as an index of sustained attention, based on the nature of the stop-signal task and the specific data it generates. Previous studies have indicated that reaction time (RT) variability is a straightforward measure of sustained attention, with increasing variability thought to reflect poorer ability to sustain attention (Esterman and Rothlein, 2019). RT variability is defined as ICV, calculated as the standard deviation of mean Go RT divided by the mean Go RT from Go trials (O'Halloran et al., 2018). The stop signal task includes both Go trials and stop trials. During Go trials, participants are required to respond as quickly and accurately as possible to a Go signal, allowing for the recording of RT for calculating ICV. In contrast, stop trials are designed to measure inhibitory control, where successful response inhibition results in no RT or response recorded in the output. Therefore, Go trials are specifically used to assess sustained attention, while Stop trials primarily assess inhibitory control (Verbruggen et al., 2019).

      We acknowledge the importance of providing this contextual information within the Results section to enhance reader understanding. We have added this information before presenting the behavioural results on Page 6.

      Results

      (1) Behavioural changes over time

      Reaction time (RT) variability is a straightforward measure of sustained attention, with increasing variability thought to reflect poor sustained attention. RT variability is defined as intra-individual coefficient of variation (ICV), calculated as the standard deviation of mean Go RT divided by the mean Go RT from Go trials in the stop signal task. Lower ICV indicates better sustained attention.

      (3) The same problem for section 2 in the Results. What are the predictive networks? Are the predictive networks the same as the networks constructed based on the correlation with ICV? My intuitive feeling is that they are the circular analyses here. The positive/negative/combined networks are calculated based on the correlation between the edges and ICV. Then the author used the network to predict the ICV again. The manipulation from the raw networks (I think they are based on PPI) to the predictive network, and the calculation of the predicted ICV are all missing. The direct exposure of the results to the readers without enough detailed knowledge made everything hard to digest.

      We thank the Reviewer for the insightful comment. We agree with the need for more clarity regarding the predictive networks and the CPM analysis before presenting results. CPM, a data-driven neuroscience approach, is applied to predict individual behaviour from brain functional connectivity (Rosenberg et al., 2016; Shen et al., 2017). The CPM analysis used the strength of the predictive network to predict the individual difference in traits and behaviours. CPM includes several steps: feature selection, feature summarization, model building, and assessment of prediction significance (see Fig. S1).

      During feature selection, we assessed whether connections between brain areas (i.e., edges) in a task-related functional connectivity matrix (derived from general psychophysiological interaction analysis) were positively or negatively correlated with ICV using a significance threshold of P < 0.01. These positively or negatively correlated connections are regarded as positive or negative network, respectively. The network strength of the positive network (or negative network) was determined in each individual by summing the connection strength of each positively (or negatively) correlated edge. The combined network was determined by subtracting the strength of the negative network from the positive network. Next, CPM built a linear model between the network strength of the predictive network and ICV. This model was initially developed using the training set. The predictive networks were then applied to the test set, where network strength was calculated again, and the linear model was used to predict ICV using k-fold cross-validation. Following your advice, we have updated it in the Results section to include these details on Page 7.

      Results

      (2) Cross-sectional brain connectivity

      This study employed CPM, a data-driven neuroscience approach, to identify three predictive networks— positive, negative, and combined— that predict ICV from brain functional connectivity. CPM typically uses the strength of the predictive networks to predict individual differences in traits and behaviors. The predictive networks were obtained based on connectivity analyses of the whole brain. Specifically, we assessed whether connections between brain areas (i.e., edges) in a task-related functional connectivity matrix derived from generalized psychophysiological interaction analysis were positively or negatively correlated with ICV using a significance threshold of P < 0.01. These positively or negatively correlated connections were regarded as positive or negative network, respectively. The network strength of positive networks (or negative networks) was determined for each individual by summing the connection strength of each positively (or negatively) correlated edge. The combined network was determined by subtracting the strength of the negative network from the positive network. We then built a linear model between network strength and ICV in the training set and applied these predictive networks to yield network strength and a linear model in the test set to calculate predicted ICV using k-fold cross validation.

      (4) The authors showed the positive/negative/combined networks from both Go trials and successful stop trials can predict the ICV. I am wondering how the author could validate the specificity of the prediction of these positive/negative/combined networks. For example, how about the networks from the failed stop trials?

      We appreciate the opportunity to clarify the specificity of the predictive networks identified in our study. Here is a more detailed explanation of our findings and their implications.

      To validate the specificity of the sustained attention network identified from CPM analysis, we calculated correlations between the network strength of positive and negative networks and performances from a neuropsychology battery (CANTAB) at each timepoint separately. CANTAB includes several tasks that measure various cognitive functions, such as sustained attention, inhibitory control, impulsivity, and working memory. We found that all positive and negative networks derived from Go and Successful stop trials significantly correlated with a behavioural assay of sustained attention – the rapid visual information processing (RVP) task – at ages 14 and 19 (all P values < 0.028). Age 23 had no RVP task data in the IMAGEN study. There were sporadic significant correlations between constructs such as delay aversion/impulsivity and negative network strength, for example, but the correlations with the RVP were always significant. This demonstrates that the strength of the sustained attention brain network was specifically and robustly correlated with a typical sustained attention task, rather than other cognitive measures. The results are described in the main text on Page 8 and shown in Supplementary materials (Pages 1 and 3) and Table S12.

      In addition, we conducted a CPM analysis to predict ICV using gPPI under Failed stop trials. Our findings showed that positive, negative, and combined networks derived from Failed stop trials significantly predicted ICV: at age 14 (r = 0.10, P = 0.033; r = 0.19, P < 0.001; and r = 0.17, P < 0.001, respectively), at age 19 (r = 0.21; r = 0.18; and r = 0.21, all P < 0.001, respectively), and at age 23 (r = 0.33, r = 0.35, and r = 0.36, respectively, all P < 0.001). Similar results were obtained using a 5-fold CV and leave-site-out CV.

      Our analysis further showed that task-related functional connectivity derived from Go trials, Successful Stop trials, and Failed Stop trials could predict sustained attention across three timepoints. However, the predictive performances of networks derived from Go trials were higher than those from Successful Stop and Failed Stop trials. This suggests that sustained attention is particularly crucial during Go trials when participants need to respond to the Go signal. In contrast, although Successful Stop and Failed Stop trials also require sustained attention, these tasks primarily involve inhibitory control along with sustained attention.

      Taken together, these findings underscore the specificity of the predictive networks of sustained attention. We have updated these results in the Supplementary Materials (Pages 3-5 and Page 7 ):

      Method

      CPM analysis using Failed stop trials

      We performed another CPM analysis using Failed stop trials using gPPI matrix obtained from the second GLM, described in the main text. The CPM analysis was conducted using 10-fold CV, 5-fold CV and leave-site-out CV.

      Results

      CPM predictive performance under Failed stop trials

      Positive, negative, and combined networks derived from Failed stop trials significantly predicted ICV: at age 14 (r = 0.10, P = 0.033; r = 0.19, P < 0.001; and r = 0.17, P < 0.001, respectively), at age 19 (r = 0.21; r = 0.18; and r = 0.21, all P < 0.001, respectively), and at age 23 (r = 0.33, r = 0.35, and r = 0.36, respectively, all P < 0.001). We obtained similar results using a 5-fold CV and leave-site-out CV (Table S6).

      Discussion

      Specificity of the prediction of predictive networks

      We found that task-related function connectivity derived from Go trials, Successful stop trials, and Failed stop trials successfully predicted sustained attention across three timepoints. However, predictive performances of predictive networks derived from Go trials were higher than those derived from Successful stop trials and Failed stop trials. These results suggest that sustained attention is particularly crucial during Go trials when participants need to respond to the Go signal. In contrast, although Successful Stop and Failed Stop trials also require sustained attention, these tasks primarily involve inhibitory control along with sustained attention.

      (5) The author used PPI to define the connectivity of the network. I am not sure why the author used two GLMs for the PPI analysis separately. In the second GLM, Go trials were treated as an implicit baseline. What does this exactly mean? And the gPPI analysis across the entire brain using the Shen atlas is not clear. Normally, as I understand, the PPI/gPPI is conducted to test the task-modulated connectivity between one seed region and the voxels of the whole rest brain. Did the author perform the PPI for each ROI from Shen atlas? More details about how to use PPI to construct the network are required.

      Thank you for your insightful questions. Here, we’d like to clarify how we applied generalized PPI across the whole brain using the Shen atlas and why we used two separate GLMs for the gPPI analysis.

      Yes, PPI is conducted to test the task-modulated connectivity between one seed region and other brain areas. This method can be both voxel-based and ROI-based. In our study, we performed ROI-based gPPI analysis using Shen atlas with 268 regions. Specifically, we performed the PPI on each seed region of interest (ROI) to estimate the task-related FC between this ROI and the remaining ROI (267 regions) under a specific task condition. By performing this analysis across each ROI in the Shen atlas, we generated a 268 × 268 gPPI matrix for each task condition. The matrices were then transposed and averaged with the original matrices, which yielded symmetrical matrices, which were subsequently used for CPM analysis.

      Regarding the use of two separate GLMs for the gPPI analysis, our study aimed to define the task-related FC under two conditions: Go trials and Successful stop trials. The first GLM including Go trials was built to estimate the gPPI during Go trials. However, due to the high frequency of Go trials in the stop signal task, it is common to regard the Go trials as an implicit baseline, as in previous IMAGEN studies (D'Alberto et al., 2018; Whelan et al., 2012). Therefore, to achieve a more accurate estimation of FC during Successful stop trials, we built a second GLM specifically for these trials. Accordingly, we have updated it in the Method Section in the main text on Page 16.

      Method

      2.5 Generalized psychophysiological interaction (gPPI) analysis

      In this study, we adopted gPPI analysis to generate task-related FC matrices and applied CPM analysis to investigate predictive brain networks from adolescents to young adults. PPI analysis describes task-dependent FC between brain regions, traditionally examining connectivity between a seed region of interest (ROI) and the voxels of the whole rest brain. However, this study conducted a generalized PPI analysis, which is on ROI-to-ROI basis (Di et al., 2021), to yield a gPPI matrix across the whole brain instead of just a single seed region.

      Given the high frequency of Go trials in SST, it is common to treat Go trials as an implicit baseline in previous IMAGEN studies (D'Alberto et al., 2018; Whelan et al., 2012). Hence, we built a separate GLM for Successful stop trials, which included two task regressors (Failed and Successful stop trials) and 36 nuisance regressors.

      (6) Why did the author use PPI to construct the network, rather than the other similar methods, for example, beta series correlation (BSC)?

      Thanks for your question. PPI is an approach used to calculate the functional connectivity (FC) under a specific task (i.e., task-related FC). Although most brain connectomic research has utilized resting-state FC (e.g., beta series correlation), FC during task performance has demonstrated superiority in predicting individual behaviours and traits,  due to its potential to capture more behaviourally relevant information (Dhamala et al., 2022; Greene et al., 2018; Yoo et al., 2018). Specifically, Zhao et al. (2023) suggested that task-related FC outperforms both typical task-based and resting-state FC in predicting individual differences. Therefore, we chose to use task-related FC to predict sustained attention over time. We have updated it in the Introduction on Page 5.

      Introduction

      Although most brain connectomic research has utilized resting-state fMRI data, functional connectivity (FC) during task performance has demonstrated superiority in predicting individual behaviours and traits, due to its potential to capture more behaviourally relevant information (Dhamala et al., 2022; Greene et al., 2018; Yoo et al., 2018). Specifically, Zhao et al. (2023) suggested that task-related FC outperforms both typical task-based and resting-state FC in predicting individual differences. Hence, we applied task-related FC to predict sustained attention over time.

      (7) In the section of 'Correlation analysis between the network strength and substance use', the author just described that 'the correlations between xx and xx are shown in Fig5X', and repeated it three times for three correlation results. What exactly are the results? The author should describe the results in detail. And I am wondering whether there are scatter plots for these correlation analyses?

      We’d like to clarify the results in Fig. 5. Fig. 5 illustrates the significant correlations between behaviour and brain activity associated with sustained attention and Cigarette and cannabis use (Cig+CB) after FDR correction. Panel A shows the significant correlation between behaviour level of sustained attention and Cig+CB. Panels B and C show the correlations between brain activity associated with sustained attention and Cig+CB. While Panel B presents the brain activity derived from Go trials, Panel C presents brain activity derived from Successful stop trials. In response to your suggestion, we have described these results in detail on Page 9. We also have included scatter plots for the significant correlations, which are shown in Fig. 5 in Supplementary materials (Fig. S10).

      Results

      (6) Correlation between behaviour and brain to cannabis and cigarette use

      Figs. 5A-C summarizes the results showing the correlation between ICV/brain activity and Cig+CB per timepoint and across timepoints. Fig. 5A shows correlations between ICV and Cig+CB (Tables S14-15). ICV was correlated with Cig+CB at ages 19 (Rho = 0.13, P < 0.001) and 23 (Rho = 0.17, P < 0.001). ICV at ages 14 (Rho = 0.13, P = 0.007) and 19 (Rho = 0.13, P = 0.0003) were correlated with Cig+CB at age 23. Cig+CB at age 19 was correlated with ICV at age 23 (Rho = 0.13, P = 9.38E-05). Fig. 5B shows correlations between brain activity derived from Go trials and Cig+CB (Tables S18-19). Brain activities of positive and negative networks derived from Go trials were correlated with Cig+CB at age 23 (positive network: Rhop = 0.12, P < 0.001; negative network: Rhon = -0.11, P < 0.001). Brain activity of the negative network derived from Go trials at age 14 was correlated with Cig+CB at age 23 (Rhon = -0.16, P = 0.001). Cig+CB at age 19 was correlated with brain activity of the positive network derived from Go trials at age 23 (Rhop = 0.10, P = 0.002). Fig. 5C shows the correlations between brain activity derived from Successful stop and Cig+CB (Tables S18-19). Brain activities of positive and negative networks derived from Successful stop were correlated with Cig+CB at ages 19 (positive network: Rhop = 0.10, P = 0.001; negative network: Rhon = -0.08, P = 0.013) and 23 (positive network: Rhop = 0.13, P < 0.001; negative network: Rhon = -0.11, P = 0.001).

      (8) Lastly, the labels of (A), (B) ... in the figure captions are unclear. The authors should find a better way to place the labels in the caption and keep them consistent throughout all figures.

      Thank you for this valuable comment. We have revised the figure captions in the main text to ensure the labels (A), (B), etc., are placed more clearly and consistently across all figures.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      While the study largely achieves its aims, several points merit further clarification:

      (1) Regarding connectome-based predictive modeling, an assumption is that connections associated with sustained attention remain consistent across age groups. However, this assumption might be challenged by observed differences in the sustained attention network profile (i.e., connections and related connection strength) across age groups (Figures 2 G-I, Fig. 3 G_I). It's unclear how such differences might impact the prediction results.

      Thank you for your insightful comment. We’d like to clarify that we did not assume that connections associated with sustained attention remain completely consistent across age groups. Indeed, we expected that connections would change across age groups, due to the developmental changes in brain function and structure from adolescence to adulthood. Our focus was on the consistency of individual differences in sustained attention networks over time, recognising that the actual connections within those networks may change. However, we did show that there is some consistency in the specific connections associated with sustained attention over time. Notably, this consistency markedly increases when comparing ages 19 and 23, when developmental factors are less relevant. We support our reasoning above with the following analyses:

      (1) Supplementary materials (Pages 2 and 5), relevant sections highlighted here for emphasis.

      Method

      Comparison of predictive networks identified at one timepoint versus another

      Steiger’s Z value was employed to compare predictive performances of networks identified at different timepoints. This analysis involved comparing the R values derived from networks defined at distinct ages to predict ICV at the same age. For example, we compared the r values of brain networks defined at age 14 when predicting ICV at 19 (i.e., positive network: r = 0.25, negative network: r = 0.25, combined network: r = 0.28) with those R values of brain networks defined at age 19 itself (i.e., positive network: r = 0.16, negative network: r = 0.14, combined network: r = 0.16) derived from Go trials using Steiger's Z test (age 14 → age 19 vs. age 19 → 19). Similarly, comparisons were made between networks defined at age 14 predicting ICV at age 23 and those at age 23 predicting ICV at age 23 (age 14 → age 23 vs. age 23 → 23), as well as between networks defined at age 19 predicting ICV at age 23 and those at age 23 predicting ICV at age 23 (age 19 -> age 23 vs. age 23 -> age 23). These comparisons were performed separately for Go trials and Successful Stop trials.

      Results

      Comparison of predictive performance at different timepoints

      For positive, negative, and combined networks predicting ICV derived from Go trials at age 19, the R values were higher when using predictive networks defined at 19 than those defined at 14 (Z = 3.79, Z = 3.39, Z = 3.99, all P < 0.00071). Similarly, the R values for positive, negative, and combined networks predicting ICV derived from Go trials at age 23 were higher when using predictive networks defined at age 23 compared to those defined at ages 14 (Z = 6.00, Z = 5.96, Z = 6.67, all P < 3.47e-9) or 19 (Z = 2.80, Z = 2.36, Z = 2.57, all P < 0.005).

      At age 19, the R value for the positive network predicting ICV derived from Successful stop trials was higher when using predictive networks defined at 19 compared to those defined at 14 (Z = 1.54, P = 0.022), while the negative and combined networks did not show a significant difference (Z = 0.85, P = 0.398; Z = 2.29, P = 0.123). At age 23, R values for the positive and combined networks predicting ICV derived from Successful stop trials were higher when using predictive networks defined at 23 compared to those defined at 14 (Z = 3.00, Z = 2.48, all P < 3.47e-9) or 19 (Z = 2.52, Z = 1.99, all P < 0.005). However, the R value for the negative network at age 23 did not significantly differ when using predictive networks defined at 14 (Z = 1.80, P = 0.072) or 19 (Z = 1.48, P = 0.138).

      These results indicate that some specific pairwise connections associated with sustained attention at earlier ages, such as 14 and 19, are still relevant as individuals grow older. However, some connections are not optimal for good sustained attention at older ages. That is, the brain reorganizes its connection patterns to maintain optimal functionality for sustained attention as it matures.

      (2) Consistency of Individual Differences:

      We found individual differences in ICV were significantly correlated between the three timepoints (Fig. 1B). In addition, we calculated the correlations of network strength of predictive networks predicting sustained attention derived from Go trials and Successful trials between each timepoints. We found that the correlations of network strength for predictive networks (derived from Go trials and Successful trials) were also significant (all P < 0.003). We have updated these results in the main text (Pages 7-8) and Supplementary Materials (Table S7).

      (2) Cross-sectional brain connectivity

      In addition, we found that network strength of positive, negative, and combined networks derived from Go trials was significantly correlated between the three timepoints (Table S7, all P < 0.003).

      In addition, we found that network strength of positive, negative, and combined networks derived from Successful stop trials was significantly correlated between the three timepoints (Table S7, all P < 0.001).

      (3) Predictive networks across timepoints: Predictive networks defined at age 14 were successfully applied to predict ICV at ages 19 and 23. Similarly, predictive networks defined at age 19 were successfully applied to predict ICV at age 23 (Fig. 4). These results reflect the robustness of the brain network associated with sustained attention over time.

      (4) Dice coefficient analysis: We calculated the Dice coefficient to quantify the similarity of predictive networks across the three timepoints. Connections in the sustained attention networks were significantly similar from ages 14 to 23 (Table S13), despite relatively few overlapping edges over time (as discussed in Supplementary Materials on Page 6).

      (5) Global brain activation: Based on these findings, we indicate that sustained attention relies on global brain activation (i.e., network strength) rather than specific regions or networks (see also (Zhao et al., 2021)).

      In summary, brain network connections undergo change and are not completely consistent across time. However, individual differences in sustained attention and its network are consistent across time, as we found that 1) the brain reorganizes its connection patterns to maintain optimal functionality for sustained attention as it matures. 2) ICV and network strength of sustained attention network were significantly correlated between each timepoint. 3) Sustained attention networks identified from previous timepoints could predict ICV in the subsequent timepoint. 4) Dice coefficient analysis indicated that the edges in the sustained attention networks were significantly similar from ages 14 to 23. 5) Sustained attention networks function as a global activation, rather than specific regions or networks.

      (2) Another assumption of the connectome-based predictive modeling is that the relationship between sustained attention network and substance use is linear and remains linear over development. Such linear evidence from either the literature or their data would be of help.

      Thanks for your valuable suggestion. We'd like to clarify that while CPM assumes a linear relationship between brain and behaviour (Shen et al., 2017), it does not assume that the relationship between the sustained attention network and substance use remains linear over development.

      Our approach in applying CPM to predict sustained attention across different timepoints was based on previous neuroimaging studies (Rosenberg et al., 2016; Rosenberg et al., 2020), which indicated linear associations between brain connectivity patterns and sustained attention using CPM analysis. These findings support the notion of a linear relationship between brain connectivity and sustained attention. In this study, we performed CPM analysis to identify predictive networks predicting sustained attention, not substance use and used the network strength of these predictive networks to represent sustained attention activity.

      To examine the relationship between substance use and sustained attention, as well as its associated brain activity, we conducted correlation analyses and utilized a latent change score model instead of CPM analysis. This decision was informed by cross-sectional studies (Broyd et al., 2016; Lisdahl and Price, 2012) that consistently reported linear associations between substance use and impairments in sustained attention. Additionally, longitudinal research by (Harakeh et al., 2012) indicated a linear relationship between poorer sustained attention and the initiation and escalation of substance use over time.

      Given these previous findings, we assumed a linear relationship between sustained attention and substance use. Our analyses included calculating correlations between substance use and sustained attention, as well as its associated brain activity at each timepoint and across timepoints (Fig. 5). Furthermore, we employed a three-wave bivariable latent change score model, a longitudinal approach, to assess the relationship between substance use and behavirour and brain activity associated with sustained attention (Figs. 6-7). We have added more information in the Introduction to make it more clear on Page 6.

      Introduction

      Additionally, previous cross-sectional and longitudinal studies (Broyd et al., 2016; Harakeh et al., 2012; Lisdahl and Price, 2012) have shown that there are linear relationships between substance use and sustained attention over time. We therefore employed correlation analyses and a latent change score model to estimate the relationship between substance use and both behaviours and brain activity associated with sustained attention.

      (3) Heterogeneity in results suggests individual variability that is not fully captured by group-level analyses. For instance, Figure 1A shows decreasing ICV (better-sustained attention) with age on the group level, while there are both increasing and decreasing patterns on the individual level via visual inspection. Figure 7 demonstrates another example in which the group with a high level of sustained attention has a lower risk of substance use at a later age compared to that in the group with a low level of sustained attention. However, there are individuals in the high sustained attention group who have substance use scores as high as those in the low sustained attention group. This is important to take into consideration and could be a potential future direction for research.

      Thanks for this valuable comment. We appreciate your observation regarding the individual variability that is not fully captured by group-level analyses to some degree. Fig. 1A shows the results from a linear mixed model, which explains group-level changes over time while accounting for the random effect within subjects. Similarly, Fig. 7 shows the group-level association between substance use and sustained attention. We agree that future research could indeed consider individual variability. For example, participants could be categorized based on their consistent trajectories of ICV or substance use (i.e., keep decreasing/increasing) over multiple timepoints. We agree that incorporating individual-level analyses in the future could provide valuable insights and are grateful for your suggestion, which will inform our future research directions.

      The above-mentioned points might partly explain the significant but low correlations between the observed and predicted ICV as shown in Figure 4. Addressing these limitations would help enhance the study's conclusions and guide future research efforts.

      We have updated the text in the Discussion on Page 13:

      Discussion

      However, there are still some individual variabilities not captured in this study, which could be attributed to the diversity in genetic, environmental, and developmental factors influencing sustained attention and substance use. Future research should aim to explore these variabilities in greater depth to gain better understanding of the relationship between sustained attention and substance use.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Weaknesses: It's questionable whether the prediction approach (i.e., CPM), even when combined with longitudinal data, can establish causality. I recommend removing the term 'consequence' in the abstract and replacing it with 'predict'. Additionally, the paper could benefit from enhanced rigor through additional analyses, such as testing various thresholds and conducting lagged effect analyses with covariate regression.

      Thank you for your comment. We have replaced “consequence” by “predict” in the abstract.

      Abstract

      Previous studies were predominantly cross-sectional or under-powered and could not indicate if impairment in sustained attention was a predictor of substance-use or a marker of the inclination to engage in such behaviour.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) The connectivity analysis predicts both baseline and longitudinal attention measures. However, given the high correlation in attention abilities across the three time-points, it's unclear whether the connectivity predicts shared variations of attention across three time points. It would be insightful to assess if predictions at the 2nd and 3rd-time points remained  significant after controlling for attention abilities at the initial time point.

      Thanks for your comments. We performed the CPM analysis to predict ICV at the 2nd and 3rd timepoint, controlling for ICV at age 14 as a covariate. We found that controlling for ICV at age 14, positive, negative, and combined networks derived from Successful stop trials defined at age 14 still predicted ICV at ages 19 and 23. In addition, positive, negative, and combined networks derived from Successful stop trials defined at age 19 predicted ICV at age 23. In addition, positive, negative, and combined networks derived from Go trials defined at age 19 still predicted ICV at age 23, after controlling for ICV at age 14. However, positive, negative, and combined networks derived from Go trials defined at age 14 had lower predictive performances in predicting ICV at ages 19 and 23, after controlling for ICV at age 14. Notably, controlling for ICV at the initial timepoint did not significantly impact the performances of predictive networks derived from Successful stop trials. Accordingly, we have added this analysis and the results in the Supplementary Materials (Pages 3 and 5).

      Method

      Prediction across timepoints controlling for ICV at age 14

      To examine whether connectivity predictors shared variations of sustained attention across timepoints, we applied predictive models developed at ages 14 and 19 to predict ICV at subsequent timepoints controlling for ICV at age 14. Specifically, we used predictive models (including parameters and selected edges) developed at age 14 to predict ICV at ages 19 and 23 separately. First, we calculated the network strength using the gPPI matrix at ages 19 and 23 based on the selected edges identified from CPM analysis at age 14. We then estimated the predicted ICV at ages 19 and 23 by applying the linear model parameters (slope and intercept) obtained from CPM analysis at age 14 to the network strength. Finally, we evaluated the predictive performance by calculating the partial correlation between the predicted and observed values at ages 19 and 23, controlling for ICV at age 14. Similarly, we applied models developed at age 19 to predict ICV at age 23, also controlling for ICV at age 14. To assess the significance of the predictive performance, we used a permutation test, shuffling the predicted ICV values and calculating partial correlation to general a random distribution over 1,000 iterations.

      Results

      Predictions across timepoints controlling for ICV at age 14

      Positive and combined networks derived from Go trials defined at age 14 predicted ICV at ages 19 (r = 0.10, P = 0.028; r = 0.08, P = 0.047) but negative network did not (r = 0.06, P = 0.119). Positive network derived from Go trials defined at age 14 predicted ICV at age 23 (r = 0.11, P = 0.013) but negative and combined networks did not (r = 0.04, P = 0.187; r = 0.08, P = 0.056).  Positive, negative, and combined networks derived from Go trials defined at age 19 predicted ICV at age 23 (r = 0.22, r = 0.19, and r = 0.22, respectively, all P < 0.001).

      Positive, negative, and combined networks derived from Successful stop trials defined at age 14 predicted ICV at age 19 (r = 0.08, P = 0.036; r = 0.10, P = 0.012; r = 0.11, P = 0.009) and 23 (r = 0.11, P = 0.005; r = 0.13, P = 0.005; r = 0.13, P = 0.017) respectively. Positive, negative, and combined networks derived from Successful stop trials defined at age 19 predicted ICV at age 23 (r = 0.18, r = 0.18, and r = 0.17, respectively, all P < 0.001).

      (2) In the Results section, a significance threshold of p = 0.01 was used for the CPM analysis. It would be beneficial to test the stability of these findings using alternative thresholds such as p = 0.05 or p = 0.005.

      We appreciate this insightful comment. We appreciate the suggestion to test the stability of our findings using alternative significance thresholds. Indeed, we have already conducted CPM analyses using a range of thresholds, including 0.1, 0.05, 0.01, 0.005, 0.001, 0.0005, and 0.0001 (see Table S8 in supplementary Materials). The results were similar across different thresholds. Following prior studies (Feng et al., 2024; Ren et al., 2021; Yoo et al., 2018) which used P < 0.01 for feature selection, we chose to focus on the threshold of P < 0.01 for our main analysis. Following your suggestion, we have highlighted this in the Method section on Pages 17-18.

      Method

      2.6.1 ICV prediction

      The r value with an associated P value for each edge was obtained, and a threshold P = 0.01 (Feng et al., 2024; Ren et al., 2021; Yoo et al., 2018) was set to select edges.

      2.6.2 Three cross-validation schemes

      In addition, we conducted the CPM analysis using a range of thresholds for feature selection and observed similar results across different thresholds (See Supplementary Materials Table S8).

      (3) Could you clarify if you used one sub-sample to extract connectivity related to sustained attention and then used another sub-sample to predict substance use with attention-related connectivity?

      Thank you very much for the question. We used the same sample to extract the brain network strength and estimated the correlation with substance use using both the Spearman correlation and latent change score model across three timepoints. We controlled for covariates including sex, age, and scan site at the same time. Accordingly, we have clarified this in the Method section on Page 20. We note that the CPM analyses were conducted using cross-validation, plus a leave-site-out analysis.

      Method

      2.7.3 Correlation between network strength and substance use

      It is worth noting that all the correlations between substance use and sustained attention were conducted using the same sample across three timepoints.

      (4) Could you clarify whether you have regressed covariates in the lagged effects analysis of part 7?

      Thanks for this question. Yes, we confirmed that we controlled the covariates including age, sex and scan sites in the latent change score model. We have described them more clearly now in the Method section (Page 18).

      Method

      2.7.3 Correlation between network strength and substance use

      Additionally, cross-lagged dynamic coupling (i.e., bidirectionality) was employed to explore individual differences in the relationships between substance use and linear changes in ICV/brain activity, as well as the relationship between ICV/brain activity and linear change in substance use. The model accounted for covariates such as age, sex and scan sites.

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    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the current reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary: The global decline of amphibians is primarily attributed to deadly disease outbreaks caused by the chytrid fungus, Batrachochytrium dendrobatidis (Bd). It is unclear whether and how skin-resident immune cells defend against Bd. Although it is well known that mammalian mast cells are crucial immune sentinels in the skin and play a pivotal role in immune recognition of pathogens and orchestrating subsequent immune responses, the roles of amphibian mast cells during Bd infections is largely unknown. The current study developed a novel way to enrich X. laevis skin mast cells by injecting the skin with recombinant stem cell factor (SCF), a KIT ligand required for mast cell differentiation and survival. The investigators found an enrichment of skin mast cells provides X. laevis substantial protection against Bd and mitigates the inflammation-related skin damage resulting from Bd infection. Additionally, the augmentation of mast cells leads to increased mucin content within cutaneous mucus glands and shields frogs from the alterations to their skin microbiomes caused by Bd. 

      Strengths: This study underscores the significance of amphibian skin-resident immune cells in defenses against Bd and introduces a novel approach to examining interactions between amphibian hosts and fungal pathogens. 

      We thank the reviewer for recognizing the significance and the novelty of our work.

      Weaknesses: The main weakness of the study is lack of functional analysis of X. laevis mast cells. Upon activation, mast cells have the characteristic feature of degranulation to release histamine, serotonin, proteases, cytokines, and chemokines, etc. The study should determine whether X. laevis mast cells can be degranulated by two commonly used mast cell activators IgE and compound 48/80 for IgE-dependent and independent pathway. This can be easily done in vitro. It is also important to assess whether in vivo these mast cells are degranulated upon Bd infection using avidin staining to visualize vesicle releases from mast cells. Figure 3 only showed rSCF injection caused an increase in mast cells in naïve skin. They need to present whether Bd infection can induce mast cell increase and rSCF injection under Bd infection causes a mast cell increase in the skin. In addition, it is unclear how the enrichment of mast cells provides the protection against Bd infection and alternations to skin microbiomes after infection. It is important to determine whether skin mast cell release any contents mentioned above. 

      We would like to thank the reviewer for taking the time to review our work and providing us with valuable feedback.

      Please note, that as indicated in our previous rebuttal to reviewers, amphibians do not possess the IgE antibody isotype1.

      To our knowledge, there are no published works describing the approaches used in studying mammalian mast cell degranulation towards examining amphibian mast cells. While there are commercially available kits and reagents for examining mammalian mast cell granule content, most of these do not cross-react with amphibian counterparts. This is especially true of cytokines and chemokines, which diverged quickly with evolution and thus do not share substantial protein sequence identity across species as diverged as frogs and mammals. We would also like to highlight the fact that several studies suggest that amphibian mast cells lack histamine2, 3, 4, 5 and serotonin2, 6. While following up on these findings would be possible, we would like to respectfully emphasize that adopting approaches used in mammalian research to comparative immunology work is not always straightforward.

      As we highlight in our manuscript, frog mast cells upregulate their expression of interleukin-4 (IL4), a hallmark cytokine associated with mammalian mast cells7. The additional findings presented in our revised manuscript indicate that mast cells respond to Bd by upregulating IL4 expression in vitro and in vivo. Together, this suggests that IL4 may be a central means by which frog mast cells confer protection against Bd, by counteracting Bd-elicited inflammation, including minimizing neutrophil infiltration, maintaining skin integrity, and promoting cutaneous mucus production. Please find that these additional results are presented in Figure 8 and are described in the results and discussion sections of our revised manuscript.

      Our attempts to elicit degranulation of frog mast cells using compound 48/80 have so far not been successful. This may reflect technical issues with assays optimized for mammalian mast cells or biological difference between frog and mammalian mast cells, such as species differences in mas-related G-protein coupled receptors, through which compound 48/80 acts8. We will continue to explore means to study frog mast cell degranulation both in vitro and in vivo but also respectfully point out that while degranulation is a feature commonly associated with mammalian mast cells, this is not the only means by which the mammalian mast cells confer their immunological effects. Indeed, our studies suggest that frog mast cell IL4 production may be a key means by which these cells offer anti-Bd protection.

      Please note that we successfully adopted an avidin staining approach to visualize mast cell heparin content in vitro and to evaluate cutaneous mast cell numbers in vivo in control and mast cell-enriched, mock- and Bd-infected animals. This additional work is depicted in Figure 4 and addressed in the results and discussion sections of our revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary: In this study, Hauser et al investigate the role of amphibian (Xenopus laevis) mast cells in cutaneous immune responses to the ecologically important pathogen Batrachochytrium dendrobatidis (Bd) using novel methods of in vitro differentiation of bone marrow-derived mast cells and in vivo expansion of skin mast cell populations. They find that bone marrow-derived myeloid precursors cultured in the presence of recombinant X. laevis Stem Cell Factor (rSCF) differentiate into cells that display hallmark characteristics of mast cells. They inject their novel (r)SCF reagent in the skin of X. laevis and find that this stimulates expansion of cutaneous mast cell populations in vivo. They then apply this model of cutaneous mast cell expansion in the setting of Bd infection and find that mast cell expansion attenuates skin burden of Bd zoospores and pathologic features including epithelial thickness and improves protective mucus production and transcriptional markers of barrier function. Utilizing their prior expertise with expanding neutrophil populations in X. laevis, the authors compare mast cell expansion using (r)SCF to neutrophil expansion using recombinant colony stimulating factor 3 (rCSF3) and find that neutrophil expansion in Bd infection leads to greater burden of zoospores and worse skin pathology. Combining these two observations, they demonstrate that mast cell expansion using rSCF attenuates cutaneous neutrophilic infiltration. They further show that mast cell expansion correlates to cutaneous IL-4 expression, and that treatment with exogenous rIL-4 reduces neutrophilic infiltration and restores markers of epithelial health, offering a mechanism by which mast cell expansion protects from Bd infection. 

      Strengths: The authors report a novel method of expanding amphibian mast cells utilizing their custom-made rSCF reagent. They rigorously characterize expanded mast cells in vitro and in vivo using histologic, morphologic, transcriptional, and functional assays. This establishes solid footing with which to then study the role of rSCF-stimulated mast cell expansion in the Bd infection model. This appears to be the first demonstration of exogenous use of rSCF in amphibians to expand mast cell populations and may set a foundation for future mechanistic studies of mast cells in the X. laevis model organism. Building on prior work, they are able to contrast mast cell expansion with their neutrophil expansion model, allowing them to infer a mechanistic link between mast cell expansion and IL-4 production and subsequent suppression of neutrophil infiltration and cutaneous dysbiosis. 

      We thank the reviewer for recognizing the rigorousness and utility of the studies presented in our manuscript.

      Weaknesses: The main weaknesses derive from technical limitations inherent to the Xenopus model at this time. For example, in mice a mechanistic study would be expected to use IL-4 knockouts, preferably mast cell-specific, to prove the link between mast cell expansion and IL-4 production being necessary and sufficient to suppress neutrophils. However, the novel reagents in this manuscript present a compelling technical advance and a step forward in the tools available to study amphibian biology. 

      We agree with the reviewer that an IL4 knock-out animal model would be a great way to support our findings. Unfortunately, working with a non-mammalian model such as X. laevis poses limitations that include lack of knock-out lines for immunology research. Moreover, as mentioned in our manuscript, we do not believe that IL4 is the sole mast cell-produced component responsible for the conferred antifungal protection. We thank the reviewer for acknowledging the limitations of our model system and recognizing the novelty, technical advances, and merits of the work presented in our manuscript.

      In addition to their discussion, one open question from the revised manuscript is how a single treatment with rSCF leads to a peak in mast cell numbers and then decline to baseline in mock-infected frogs, while Bd infection either sustains rSCF-boosted mast cells or leads to steady mast cell increase over time in control-treated frogs. Whether this is mediated by endogenous SCF or some other factor remains unexplored.

      This is an interesting question that we hope to explore in future studies. We did not see significant differences in skin SCF gene expression at 21 days post Bd infection. This does not rule out the possibility that the observed Bd-mediated effects to frog skin mast cell composition are not due to changes in skin SCF gene expression at earlier infection times, alone or in combination with other host or pathogen derived factors. We know that other factors are responsible for homing/retention of antimicrobial and immunosuppressive granulocyte subsets within frog skin9 and we postulate that some of these may be distinct mast cell types. Additionally, Bd is known to produce a myriad of immunomodulatory factors10, which may well also directly affect frog skin mast cell composition. Mammalian mast cells are heterogenous and are homed or recruited into tissues by an extensive array of host as well as microbiome-derived components11, 12. Undoubtedly, the frog skin mast cell composition is likewise complex, dynamic, and contingent on a plethora of host, cutaneous microbial flora- and in this case also Bd-produced factors.

      References

      (1) Flajnik, M.F. A cold-blooded view of adaptive immunity. Nat Rev Immunol 18, 438-453 (2018).

      (2) Mulero, I., Sepulcre, M.P., Meseguer, J., Garcia-Ayala, A. & Mulero, V. Histamine is stored in mast cells of most evolutionarily advanced fish and regulates the fish inflammatory response. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 104, 19434-19439 (2007).

      (3) Reite, O.B. A phylogenetical approach to the functional significance of tissue mast cell histamine. Nature 206, 1334-1336 (1965).

      (4) Reite, O.B. Comparative physiology of histamine. Physiol Rev 52, 778-819 (1972).

      (5) Takaya, K., Fujita, T. & Endo, K. Mast cells free of histamine in Rana catasbiana. Nature 215, 776-777 (1967).

      (6) Galli, S.J. New insights into "the riddle of the mast cells": microenvironmental regulation of mast cell development and phenotypic heterogeneity. Lab Invest 62, 5-33 (1990).

      (7) Babina, M., Guhl, S., Artuc, M. & Zuberbier, T. IL-4 and human skin mast cells revisited: reinforcement of a pro-allergic phenotype upon prolonged exposure. Archives of dermatological research 308, 665-670 (2016).

      (8) Hermans, M.A.W. et al. Human Mast Cell Line HMC1 Expresses Functional Mas-Related G-Protein Coupled Receptor 2. Front Immunol 12, 625284 (2021).

      (9) Hauser, K. et al. Discovery of granulocyte-lineage cells in the skin of the amphibian Xenopus laevis. FACETS 5, 571 (2020).

      (10) Rollins-Smith, L.A. & Le Sage, E.H. Batrachochytrium fungi: stealth invaders in amphibian skin. Curr Opin Microbiol 61, 124-132 (2021).

      (11) Halova, I., Draberova, L. & Draber, P. Mast cell chemotaxis - chemoattractants and signaling pathways. Front Immunol 3, 119 (2012).

      (12) West, P.W. & Bulfone-Paus, S. Mast cell tissue heterogeneity and specificity of immune cell recruitment. Front Immunol 13, 932090 (2022).


      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The global decline of amphibians is primarily attributed to deadly disease outbreaks caused by the chytrid fungus, Batrachochytrium dendrobatidis (Bd). It is unclear whether and how skin-resident immune cells defend against Bd. Although it is well known that mammalian mast cells are crucial immune sentinels in the skin and play a pivotal role in the immune recognition of pathogens and orchestrating subsequent immune responses, the roles of amphibian mast cells during Bd infections are largely unknown. The current study developed a novel way to enrich X. laevis skin mast cells by injecting the skin with recombinant stem cell factor (SCF), a KIT ligand required for mast cell differentiation and survival. The investigators found an enrichment of skin mast cells provides X. laevis substantial protection against Bd and mitigates the inflammation-related skin damage resulting from Bd infection. Additionally, the augmentation of mast cells leads to increased mucin content within cutaneous mucus glands and shields frogs from the alterations to their skin microbiomes caused by Bd.

      Strengths:

      This study underscores the significance of amphibian skin-resident immune cells in defenses against Bd and introduces a novel approach to examining interactions between amphibian hosts and fungal pathogens. 

      We thank the reviewer for acknowledging the novelty and importance of the work presented in our manuscript.

      Weaknesses:

      The main weakness of the study is the lack of functional analysis of X. laevis mast cells. Upon activation, mast cells have the characteristic feature of degranulation to release histamine, serotonin, proteases, cytokines, and chemokines, etc. The study should determine whether X. laevis mast cells can be degranulated by two commonly used mast cell activators IgE and compound 48/80 for IgE-dependent and independent pathways. This can be easily done in vitro. It is also important to assess whether in vivo these mast cells are degranulated upon Bd infection using avidin staining to visualize vesicle releases from mast cells. Figure 3 only showed rSCF injection caused an increase in mast cells in naïve skin. They need to present whether Bd infection can induce mast cell increase and rSCF injection under Bd infection causes a mast cell increase in the skin. In addition, it is unclear how the enrichment of mast cells provides protection against Bd infection and alternations to skin microbiomes after infection. It is important to determine whether skin mast cells release any contents mentioned above. 

      We would like to thank the reviewer for taking the time to review our work and providing us with valuable feedback. We feel that we have successfully incorporated the reviewer’s suggestions into our revised manuscript, thereby improving this work.

      Please note that amphibians do not possess the IgE antibody isotype1.

      To our knowledge there have been no published work assimilating approaches used when studying mammalian mast cell degranulation towards examining amphibian mast cells. While there are commercially available kits and reagents for examining mammalian mast cell granule content, most of these reagents do not cross-react with amphibian counterparts. This is especially true of cytokines and chemokines, which diverged quickly with evolution and thus do not share substantial protein sequence identity across species as diverged as frogs and mammals. Additionally, several studies suggest that amphibian mast cells lack histamine2, 3, 4, 5 and serotonin2, 6. Respectfully, while following up on these findings is possible, we would not consider adopting approaches used in mammalian research to comparative immunology work as easy.

      As noted in our manuscript, frog mast cells upregulate their expression of interleukin-4 (IL4), which is a hallmark cytokine associated with mammalian mast cells7. The additional findings, presented in our revised manuscript indicate that mast cells respond to Bd by upregulating IL4 expression in vitro and in vivo. In turn, our work indicates that IL4 may be a central means by which frog mast cells confer protection against Bd, by counteracting Bd-elicited inflammation, including minimizing neutrophil infiltration, maintaining skin integrity, and promoting mucus production by skin mucus glands. Please find that these additional findings are presented in Figure 8 of our revised manuscript and are described in the results and discussion sections of the paper.

      Our attempts to elicit degranulation of frog mast cells using compound 48/80 have so far not been successful. This may reflect technical issues with assays optimized for mammalian mast cells or biological difference between frog and mammalian mast cells, such as species differences in mas-related G-protein coupled receptors, through which compound 48/80 acts8. We will continue explore means to study frog mast cell degranulation both in vitro and in vivo but would also like to respectfully point out that while mast cell degranulation is a feature most associated with mammalian mast cells, this is not the only means by which the mammalian mast cells confer their immunological effects. Indeed, our additional studies suggest that mast cell IL4 production may be a key means by which these cells offer anti-Bd protection.

      Please find that we have adopted an avidin-staining approach to visualize mast cell heparin content in vitro and to evaluate mast cell numbers in vivo in the skins of control and mast cell-enriched, mock- and Bd-infected animals. This additional work is depicted in Figure 4 of our revised manuscript and addressed in the results and discussion sections of our revised paper.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this study, Hauser et al investigate the role of amphibian (Xenopus laevis) mast cells in cutaneous immune responses to the ecologically important pathogen Batrachochytrium dendrobatidis (Bd) using novel methods of in vitro differentiation of bone marrow-derived mast cells and in vivo expansion of skin mast cell populations. They find that bone marrow-derived myeloid precursors cultured in the presence of recombinant X. laevis Stem Cell Factor (rSCF) differentiate into cells that display hallmark characteristics of mast cells. They inject their novel (r)SCF reagent into the skin of X. laevis and find that this stimulates the expansion of cutaneous mast cell populations in vivo. They then apply this model of cutaneous mast cell expansion in the setting of Bd infection and find that mast cell expansion attenuates the skin burden of Bd zoospores and pathologic features including epithelial thickness and improves protective mucus production and transcriptional markers of barrier function. Utilizing their prior expertise with expanding neutrophil populations in X. laevis, the authors compare mast cell expansion using (r)SCF to neutrophil expansion using recombinant colony-stimulating factor 3 (rCSF3) and find that neutrophil expansion in Bd infection leads to greater burden of zoospores and worse skin pathology. 

      Strengths:

      The authors report a novel method of expanding amphibian mast cells utilizing their custom-made rSCF reagent. They rigorously characterize expanded mast cells in vitro and in vivo using histologic, morphologic, transcriptional, and functional assays. This establishes solid footing with which to then study the role of rSCF-stimulated mast cell expansion in the Bd infection model. This appears to be the first demonstration of the exogenous use of rSCF in amphibians to expand mast cell populations and may set a foundation for future mechanistic studies of mast cells in the X. laevis model organism. 

      We thank the reviewer for recognizing the breadth and extent of the undertaking that culminated in this manuscript. Indeed, this manuscript would not have been possible without considerable reagent development and adaptation of techniques that had previously not been used for amphibian immunity research. In line with the reviewer’s sentiment, to our knowledge this is the first report of using molecular approaches to augment amphibian mast cells, which we hope will pave the way for new areas of research within the fields of comparative immunology and amphibian disease biology.

      Weaknesses:

      The conclusions regarding the role of mast cell expansion in controlling Bd infection would be stronger with a more rigorous evaluation of the model, as there are some key gaps and remaining questions regarding the data. For example: 

      (1) Granulocyte expansion is carefully quantified in the initial time courses of rSCF and rCSF3 injections, but similar quantification is not provided in the disease models (Figures 3E, 4G, 5D-G). A key implication of the opposing effects of mast cell vs neutrophil expansion is that mast cells may suppress neutrophil recruitment or function. Alternatively, mast cells also express notable levels of csfr3 (Figure 2) and previous work from this group (Hauser et al, Facets 2020) showed rG-CSF-stimulated peritoneal granulocytes express mast cell markers including kit and tpsab1, raising the question of what effect rCSF3 might have on mast cell populations in the skin. Considering these points, it would be helpful if both mast cells and neutrophils were quantified histologically (based on Figure 1, they can be readily distinguished by SE or Giemsa stain) in the Bd infection models. 

      We thank the reviewer for this insightful suggestion. Please find that we successfully adopted an in situ hybridization approach to evaluate neutrophil numbers in the skins of control and mast cell-enriched, mock- and Bd-infected animals based on expression of the neutrophil marker, myeloperoxidase (MPO9).  Please find these results are presented in Figures 6 and 8 of our revised manuscript and addressed in the appropriate sections of our revised paper.

      Our findings suggest that rSCF administration results in the accumulation of mast cells that are polarized such, that they ablate the inflammatory response elicited by Bd infection, such as through mechanisms like IL4 production. Mammalian mast cells, including peritonea-resident mast cells, express csf3r10, 11. For this reason, we used MPO expression to visualize neutrophil skin infiltration in Figures 6 and 8 of our revised work. While the X. laevis animal model does not permit nearly the degree of immune cell resolution afforded by mammalian animal models, we do know that the adult X. laevis peritonea contain a myriad of immune cell subsets. We anticipate that the high kit expression reported by Hauser et al., 2020 in the rCSF3-recruited peritoneal leukocytes reflects the presence of mast cells therein.

      Please find that we have used avidin-staining and MPO in situ hybridization to respectively visualize and enumerate mast cells and neutrophils in the skin of control and mast cell-enriched, mock- and Bd-infected animals. Indeed, our results show interesting, experimental condition-dependent changes in both the skin neutrophil and mast cell numbers. The results of these additional studies are presented in Figures 4, 6 and 8 of the revised manuscript and addressed in the results and discussions sections of our revised paper.

      (2) Epithelial thickness and inflammation in Bd infection are reported to be reduced by rSCF treatment (Figure 3E, 5A-B) or increased by rCSF3 treatment (Figure 4G) but quantification of these critical readouts is not shown.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We scored epithelial thickness under the distinct conditions described in our manuscript and presented the quantified data in Figures 5 and 8 of the revised paper.

      (3) Critical time points in the Bd model are incompletely characterized. Mast cell expansion decreases zoospore burden at 21 dpi, while there is no difference at 7 dpi (Figure 3E). Conversely, neutrophil expansion increases zoospore burden at 7 dpi, but no corresponding 21 dpi data is shown for comparison (Figure 4G). Microbiota analysis is performed at a third time point,10 dpi (Figure 5D-G), making it difficult to compare with the data from the 7 dpi and 21 dpi time points. Reporting consistent readouts at these three time points is important to draw solid conclusions about the relationship of mast cell expansion to Bd infection and shifts in microbiota.

      We thank reviewer for noting this discrepancy. Please find that we have repeated our mast cell-enrichment, Bd-challenge studies, examining days 10 and 21 post infection. Our new findings indicate that compared to control animals, mast cell-enrichment does result in significant reduction in Bd loads at both 10 and 21 dpi. The difference in Bd loads between r-ctrl and rSCF-treated animals at 10 dpi corroborates the other parameters that are altered between the two treatment groups at this experimental time point.

      Our question regarding the roles of inflammatory granulocytes/neutrophils during Bd infections was that of ‘how’ rather ‘when’ these cells affect Bd infections.  Thus, and because the central focus of this work was mast cells and not other granulocyte subsets; when we saw that rCSF3-recruited granulocytes adversely affect Bd infections at 7 days, we did not pursue the kinetics of these observations further. We plan to explore the roles of inflammatory mediators and immune cell subsets during the course of Bd infections but feel that these future studies are more peripheral to the central thesis of the present manuscript regarding the roles of frog mast cells during Bd infections.

      (4) Although the effect of rSCF treatment on Bd zoospores is significant at 21 dpi (Figure 3E), bacterial microbiota changes at 21 dpi are not (Figure S3B-C). This discrepancy, how it relates to the bacterial microbiota changes at 10 dpi, and why 7, 10, and 21 dpi time points were chosen for these different readouts (Figure 5F-G), is not discussed.

      Please find that our additional studies indicate that compared to control animals, frog skin mast cell-enrichment results in significant reduction in Bd loads at 10 dpi. This corroborate our other findings including the observation that at 10 dpi, control animals exhibit reduced microbial richness whereas mast cell-enriched frogs were protected from this disruption of their microbiome. The amphibian microbiome serves as a major barrier to these fungal infections12 and we anticipate that Bd-mediated disruption of microbial richness facilitates host skin colonization by this pathogen. In turn, we anticipate that frog mast cells are conferring the observed anti-Bd protection in part by preventing microbial disassembly and thus interfering with optimal Bd colonization and growth on frog skins. Please find that we acknowledge and discuss these notions in our revised manuscript.

      (5) The time course of rSCF or rCSF3 treatments relative to Bd infection in the experiments is not clear. Were the treatments given 12 hours prior to the final analysis point to maximize the effect? For example, in Figure 3E, were rSCF injections given at 6.5 dpi and 20.5 dpi? Or were treatments administered on day 0 of the infection model? If the latter, how do the authors explain the effects at 7 dpi or 21 dpi given mast cell and neutrophil numbers return to baseline within 24 hours after rSCF or rCSF3 treatment, respectively?

      Please find that in our revised manuscript, we underlined the kinetics of our animal treatments and Bd-infections. In brief, for mast cell-enrichment, animals were injected with r-ctrl or rSCF, challenged 12 hours later with Bd and examined after 10 (per reviewers’ suggestions) and 21 days of infection. For neutrophil enrichment, animals were injected with r-ctrl or rCSF3, challenged 12 hours later with Bd and examined after 7 days of infection.

      The title of the manuscript may be mildly overstated. Although Bd infection can indeed be deadly, mortality was not a readout in this study, and it is not clear from the data reported that expanding skin mast cells would ultimately prevent progression to death in Bd infections.

      We acknowledge this point. The revised manuscript will be titled: “Amphibian mast cells: barriers to chytrid fungus infections”.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Hauser et al. provide an exceptional study describing the role of resident mast cells in amphibian epidermis that produce anti-inflammatory cytokines that prevent Batrachochytrium dendrobatidis (Bd) infection from causing harmful inflammation, and also protect frogs from changes in skin microbiomes and loss of mucin in glands and loss of mucus integrity that otherwise cause changes to their skin microbiomes. Neutrophils, in contrast, were not protective against Bd infection. Beyond the beautiful cytology and transcriptional profiling, the authors utilized elegant cell enrichment experiments to enrich mast cells by recombinant stem cell factor, or to enrich neutrophils by recombinant colony-stimulating factor-3, and examined respective infection outcomes in Xenopus.

      Strengths:

      Through the use of recombinant IL4, the authors were able to test and eliminate the hypothesis that mast cell production of IL4 was the mechanism of host protection from Bd infection. Instead, impacts on the mucus glands and interaction with the skin microbiome are implicated as the protective mechanism. These results will press disease ecologists to examine the relative importance of this immune defense among species, the influence of mast cells on the skin microbiome and mucosal function, and open the potential for modulating mucosal defense.

      We thank the reviewer for recognizing the utility of the work presented in our manuscript.

      Weaknesses:

      A reduction of bacterial diversity upon infection, as described at the end of the results section, may not always be an "adverse effect," particularly given that anti-Bd function of the microbiome increased. Some authors (see Letourneau et al. 2022 ISME, or Woodhams et al. 2023 DCI) consider these short-term alterations as encoding ecological memory, such that continued exposure to a pathogen would encounter an enriched microbial defense. Regardless, mast cell-initiated protection of the mucus layer may negate the need for this microbial memory defense.

      We thank the reviewer their insightful comment. We have revised our discussion to include this notion.

      While the description of the mast cell location in the epidermal skin layer in amphibians is novel, it is not known how representative these results are across species ranging in chytridiomycosis susceptibility. No management applications are provided such as methods to increase this defense without the use of recombinant stem cell factor, and more discussion is needed on how the mast cell component (abundance, distribution in the skin) of the epidermis develops or is regulated.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. Please find that we have added a paragraph to our revised manuscripts to address possible source(s) of skin mast cells and a statement acknowledging that greater understanding of mast cell biology across distinct amphibian species may be used to develop future strategies for management of amphibian diseases.

      We are very thankful to the reviewer for this excellent suggestion but would like to point out that the work presented in our manuscript was driven by comparative immunology questions more than by conservation biology. As such and considering just how little is known about mast cells outside of mammals; we chose not to speculate too much into possible utilities of altering amphibian skin mast cell composition and instead to focus our discussion on the immediate takeaways of the work presented by our paper.

      References

      (1) Flajnik, M.F. A cold-blooded view of adaptive immunity. Nat Rev Immunol 18, 438-453 (2018).

      (2) Mulero, I., Sepulcre, M.P., Meseguer, J., Garcia-Ayala, A. & Mulero, V. Histamine is stored in mast cells of most evolutionarily advanced fish and regulates the fish inflammatory response. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 104, 19434-19439 (2007).

      (3) Reite, O.B. A phylogenetical approach to the functional significance of tissue mast cell histamine. Nature 206, 1334-1336 (1965).

      (4) Reite, O.B. Comparative physiology of histamine. Physiol Rev 52, 778-819 (1972).

      (5) Takaya, K., Fujita, T. & Endo, K. Mast cells free of histamine in Rana catasbiana. Nature 215, 776-777 (1967).

      (6) Galli, S.J. New insights into "the riddle of the mast cells": microenvironmental regulation of mast cell development and phenotypic heterogeneity. Lab Invest 62, 5-33 (1990).

      (7) Babina, M., Guhl, S., Artuc, M. & Zuberbier, T. IL-4 and human skin mast cells revisited: reinforcement of a pro-allergic phenotype upon prolonged exposure. Archives of dermatological research 308, 665-670 (2016).

      (8) Hermans, M.A.W. et al. Human Mast Cell Line HMC1 Expresses Functional Mas-Related G-Protein Coupled Receptor 2. Front Immunol 12, 625284 (2021).

      (9) Buchan, K.D. et al. A transgenic zebrafish line for in vivo visualisation of neutrophil myeloperoxidase. PLoS One 14, e0215592 (2019).

      (10) Aponte-Lopez, A., Enciso, J., Munoz-Cruz, S. & Fuentes-Panana, E.M. An In Vitro Model of Mast Cell Recruitment and Activation by Breast Cancer Cells Supports Anti-Tumoral Responses. Int J Mol Sci 21 (2020).

      (11) Jamur, M.C. et al. Mast cell repopulation of the peritoneal cavity: contribution of mast cell progenitors versus bone marrow derived committed mast cell precursors. BMC Immunol 11, 32 (2010).

      (12) Walke, J.B. & Belden, L.K. Harnessing the Microbiome to Prevent Fungal Infections: Lessons from Amphibians. PLoS Pathog 12, e1005796 (2016).

      Reviewer #2: (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      We thank the reviewer for their excellent suggestions, their time reviewing this work and their help with this manuscript.

      While we were not able to incorporate some of these changes, please find that we have significantly altered our manuscript in accordance with the reviewer’s suggestions from their public review. We feel that we have substantially altered our paper, including providing considerable additional data, supporting the key findings therein.

      (1) The heatmap in Figure 1I appears to be scaled data, similar to Figure 4A, in which case the indicated scale numbers are not correct (e.g. they should be -2 to 2, or -3 to 3) 

      Thank you for the suggestion. Please find that we have changed this figure accordingly.

      (2) For Figure 1, additional curated gene lists might better illustrate the difference in cell types, e.g. include the data for a panel of mast cell genes in a heatmap (mcpt1, tpsab1, etc.) and another panel of curated neutrophil genes (e.g. lyz) in a heatmap. If the authors still have leftover RNA, qPCR verification of some of the critical genes (e.g. kit) would add to the rigor of the analysis, as this study is the foundation of a new method for culturing amphibian mast cells. 

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. Unfortunately, we do not have leftover RNA/cDNA and we have not been able to locate mcpt1 or tpsab1 in our DEGs. We anticipate that this issue may stem from the suboptimal annotation of the Xenopus laevis genome. We agree that curating more mast cell/neutrophil genes would be ideal but feel that we have adequately highlighted those genes that are differentially expressed between the two populations in our analysis.

      (3) The presentation of counts in Figure 2 is a bit hard to interpret. Although it is mentioned that everything is statistically significant, explicitly showing statistics for each gene would be better. One possibility would be to use a volcano plot (p-value vs log2 fold change) and highlight the genes shown in Figure 2, potentially with an accompanying heat map to show replicate variability. 

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We entertained presenting the data as volcano plots or heat maps, but in the end felt that the bar graphs better conveyed the information that we are hoping to get across. Please note that the error bars in the bar graph depict the replicate variability. Please also note that to highlight that all the depicted genes were differentially expressed, we italicized the statement in the corresponding figure legend: “All depicted genes were significantly differentially expressed between the two populations”.

      (4) Narratively, it might make more sense to put Figure 4A-C with Figure 3. 

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. Please find that we significantly revised most of our figures to better convey the content therein. We combined the content of Figure 4A-C with Figure 5A-C and added data on epidermal thickness under different conditions into this figure; Figure 5 of our revised manuscript.

      (5) If possible, complementing the skin RNA-seq from rSCF treatment in Bd infection with skin RNA-seq from rCSF3 treatment to compare effects on transcriptional programs of barrier function, etc would elevate this study and add additional insights into cutaneous inflammation in the setting of Bd infection. 

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We anticipate that the skin inflammation caused by Bd infection is not due solely to neutrophil infiltration and artificially altering the frog skin neutrophil content would thus not recapitulate chytridiomycosis progression. We completely agree that it would be valuable to examine barrier functions in control and mast cell-enriched, Bd-infected frogs. This is something that we hope to pursue further in future studies but feel that together with our additional findings, we are presenting a significant amount of data to constitute a stand-alone story.

      (6) In Figure S1A, analyzing only 3 AMP genes by qPCR is perhaps too focused. As a control, it would be useful to also test some genes known to be functionally important in neutrophil anti-microbial responses, e.g. lyz. Expanding on this experiment by performing RNA-seq on Bd-treated, bone-marrow-derived mast cells and neutrophils would be a great addition to the manuscript and an important resource for future studies in the field. The fact that the use of rSCF (or rCSF3) enables the differentiation of these cells in large numbers of pure populations presents this unique opportunity. Although IL-4 did not end up affecting mucus production, clues to the mediator(s) of this mast cell-dependent effect may be found with unbiased RNA-seq after exposure to Bd. 

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion but would like to point out that our manuscript is focused on mast cells rather than neutrophils. We also believe that in vitro exposure of leukocytes to Bd is not the most physiologically relevant model of what would happen to skin-resident and incoming immune cell subsets, since Bd primarily infects top-most keratinocytes. We anticipate that rather than coming into direct contact with the fungus, cells like mast cells and neutrophils are responding to Bd-produced and infected cell-produced products. For this reason, we did not perform RNA-seq analysis of in vitro derived mast cells or neutrophils stimulated with Bd. As we develop more X. laevis-specific reagents, we hope to revisit the question of infected skin mast cell and neutrophil gene expression profiles but are not in a position to ask these questions at this time.

      This work is also guided by a finite budget, and we feel that together with our significant additional findings described in our revised manuscript, we are presenting a substantial amount of work to constitute a stand-alone story and manuscript.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      The following are minor edits needed in the text and figure legends: 

      Standardize terms such as IL4 instead of il4 or ril4 vs rIL4 throughout. Also, r-SCF vs rSCF. 

      Thank you. Please find that we have standardized such terms throughout our revised manuscript. Please note that we are adhering to the convention that gene names are in lower case, protein names are in upper case and recombinant protein names are preceded by an ‘r’.

      Pg 9 Change "In contract" to "In contrast". 

      Thank you and changed accordingly.

      Fig 4 - Perhaps indicate if results in addition to 7dpi are also available. 

      Please find that we analyzed Bd loads in control and mast cell-enriched, infected frogs after 10 dpi. This data is presented in Figures 3 and 4 of our revised manuscript.

      Similarly in Fig. 5, are results other than 10dpi available in the supplement? 

      Please find that the results from the microbiome studies are presented in supplemental figure 3 (Fig. S3). Please note that the results presented in original manuscript Fig. 5A-C - revised manuscript Fig. 5B-E depict data for 21 dpi, which is the longest examined infection timepoint. We present data from 1 and 10 dpi in Fig. 4 of our revised manuscript.

      Indicate why these days were chosen in the methods. 

      Please find that we indicated why the experimental timepoints were chosen, in the methods section of our revised manuscript.

      Fig S1 legend has errors in describing which panels are for which asterisks. 

      Fig. S3 legend indicates panels F and G. 

      Thank you. Please find that we revised our supplemental figures and amended the corresponding figure legends.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this paper, the authors investigate the impact of fecal microbiota transfer (FMT) on intestinal recovery from enterotoxigenic E. coli infection following antibiotic treatment. Using a piglet model of intestinal infection, the authors demonstrate that FMT reduces weight loss and diarrhea and enhances the expression of tight junction proteins. Sequencing analysis of the intestinal microbiota following FMT showed significant increases in Akkermansia muciniphila and Bacteroides fragilis. Using additional mouse and organoid models, the authors examine the impact of these microbes on intestinal recovery and modulation of the Wnt signaling pathway. Overall, the data support the notion that FMT following ETEC infection is beneficial, however, additional investigation is required to fully elucidate the mechanisms involved.

      Strengths:

      Initial experiments used a piglet model of infection to test the value of FMT on recovery from E. coli. The FMT treatment was beneficial and the authors provide solid evidence that the treatment increased the diversity of the microbiota and enhanced the recovery of the intestinal epithelium. Sequencing data highlighted an increase in Akkermansia muciniphila and Bacteroides fragilis after FMT.

      The mouse data are consistent with the observations in pigs, and reveal that daily gavage with A. muciniphila or B. fragilis enhances intestinal recovery based on histological analysis, expression of tight junction proteins, and analysis of intestinal barrier function.

      The authors demonstrate the benefit of probiotic treatment following infection using a range of model systems.

      Weaknesses:

      Without sequencing the pre-infection pig microbiota or the FMT input material itself, it's challenging to firmly say that the observed bloom in Akkermansia muciniphila and Bacteroides fragilis stemmed from the FMT.

      Response: We have determined the relative abundance of each bacterium in fecal bacterial suspension, referring to Hu et al. (2018). The absolute abundances of Akkermansia muciniphila and Bacteroides fragilis in the FMT were 1.3 × 103 ± 2.6 × 103 and 4.5 × 103 ± 6.1 × 103 respectively.

      Reference:

      Hu LS, Geng SJ, Li Y, et al. Exogenous Fecal Microbiota Transplantation from Local Adult Pigs to Crossbred Newborn Piglets. Front. Microbiol. 2018, 8.

      The lack of details for the murine infection model, such as weight loss and quantification of bacterial loads over time, make it challenging for a reader to fully appreciate how treatment with Akkermansia muciniphila and Bacteroides fragilis is altering the course of infection. Bacterial loads of E. coli were only quantified at one time point, and the mice that received A. muciniphila and B. fragilis had very low levels of E. coli. Therefore, it is not clear if all mice were subjected to the same level of infection in the first place. The reduced translocation of E. coli to the organs and enhanced barrier function may just reflect the low level of infection in these mice. Further, the authors' conclusion that the effect is specific to A. muciniphila or B. fragilis would be more convincing if the experiments included an inert control bacterium, to demonstrate that gavage with any commensal microbe would not elicit a similar effect.

      The weight loss was added in Figure S2A. All mice were subjected to the same level of infection in the first place.

      Many of the conclusions in the study are drawn from the microscopy results. However, the methods describing both light microscopy and electron microscopy lack sufficient detail. For example, it is not clear how many sections and fields of view were imaged or how the SEM samples were prepared and dehydrated. The mucus layer does not appear to be well preserved, which would make it challenging to accurately measure the thickness of the mucus layer.

      For light microscopy, 3-4 fields were selected from each mouse to count about 30 crypts. The method of electron microscopy was complemented on line 263-270. We have removed data of the mucus layer.

      Gene expression data appears to vary across the different models, for example, Wnt3 expression in mice versus organoids. Additional experiments may be required to clarify the mechanisms involved. Considering that both of the bacteria tested elicited similar changes in Wnt signaling, this pathway might be broadly modulated by the microbiota.

      The reason why the Wnt3 expression pattern is different in mice and in porcine intestinal organoids may be caused by the different infection periods of ETEC in vivo and in vitro. Furthermore, in vivo, the stem cell niche of intestinal stem cells is not only regulated by intestinal epithelial cells, but also affected by mesenchymal cells in connective tissues (Luo et al., 2022). However, in vitro models, stem cell niche is only regulated by epithelial secretory factors, which may also account for the differences in in vitro and in vivo results.

      It has been reported that B. fragilis pretreatment significantly increased the relative abundance of A. muciniphila in the intestine of CDI mice, and the growth and maintenance of A. muciniphila were involved in the restoration of intestinal barrier integrity after CDI infection, indicating that there might exist a bacterial metabolic symbiosis between A. muciniphila and B. fragilis (Deng et al., 2018).

      References:

      Luo HM, Li MX, Wang F, et al. The role of intestinal stem cell within gut homeostasis: Focusing on its interplay with gut microbiota and the regulating pathways. Int. J. Biol. Sci. 2022, 18(13): 5185-5206.

      Deng HM, Yang SQ, Zhang YC, et al. Bacteroides fragilis Prevents Clostridium difficile Infection in a Mouse Model by Restoring Gut Barrier and Microbiome Regulation. Front. Microbiol. 2018, 9.

      The unconventional choice to not include references in the results section makes it challenging for the reader to put the results in context with what is known in the field. Similarly, there is a lack of discussion acknowledging that B. fragilis is a potential pathogen, associated with intestinal inflammation and cancer (Haghi et al. BMC Cancer 19, 879 (2019) ), and how this would impact its utility as a potential probiotic.

      Bacteroides fragilis is one of the symbiotic anaerobes within the mammalian gut and is also an opportunistic pathogen which often isolated from clinical specimens. Bacteroides fragilis was first isolated from the pathogenic site and considered to be pathogenic bacteria. However, with the deepening of research, it is gradually realized that in the long-term evolution process, Bacteroides fragilis colonized in the gut has established a friendly relationship with the host, which is an essential component for maintaining the health of the host, especially for obesity, diabetes and immune deficiency diseases. We have supplemented the discussion on line 598-603.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Ma X. et al proposed that A. muciniphila was a key strain that promotes the proliferation and differentiation of intestinal stem cells by acting on the Wnt/β-catenin signaling pathway. They used various models, such as the piglet model, mouse model, and intestinal organoids to address how A. muciniphila and B. fragilis offer protection against ETEC infection. They showed that FMT with fecal samples, A. muciniphila or B. fragilis protected piglets and/or mice from ETEC infection, and this protection is manifested as reduced intestinal inflammation/bacterial colonization, increased tight junction/Muc2 proteins, as well as proper Treg/Th17 cells. Additionally, they demonstrated that A. muciniphila protected basal-out and/or apical-out intestinal organoids against ETEC infection via Wnt signaling. While a large body of work has been performed in this study, there are quite a few questions to be addressed.

      Major comments:

      - The similar protective effect of FMT with fecal samples, A. muciniphila or B. fragilis is perhaps not that surprising, considering that FMT likely restores microbiota-mediated colonization resistance against ETEC infection. While FMT with fecal samples increases SCFAs, it is unclear whether/how FMT with A. muciniphila or B. fragilis alter the microbiota composition/abundance as well as metabolites in the current models in a way that offers protection.

      We examined changes in the gut microbiota of mice treated with A. muciniphila and B. fragilis through 16s rRNA, and results showed that both A. muciniphila and B. fragilis improved the alpha and beta diversities of the microbiota, while these results were not included in this manuscript.

      - Does ETEC infection in piglets/mice cause histological damage in the intestines? These data should be shown.

      The results of scanning electron microscopy (Figure 3A) showed the intestinal damage of piglets after ETEC infection. H&E staining and transmission electron microscopy (Figure 5A and 5B) showed the intestinal damage of mice after ETEC infection.

      - Line 447, "ETEC adheres to intestinal epithelial cells". However, there is no data showing the adherence (or invasion) of ETEC to intestinal epithelial cells, irrespective of piglets/mouse/organoids.

      The scanning electron microscope (Figure 3A bottom) showed that ETEC K88 infected piglets existed obvious rod-shaped bacterial adhesion on the surface of microvilli. Figure 2C showed the colonization of ETEC K88 in the jejunum and colon of piglets. Figure S2A showed the E. coli colonization in intestines and other tissues of mice.

      - In both basal-out and apical-out intestinal organoid models, A. muciniphila protects organoids against ETEC infection. Did ETEC enter into intestinal epithelial cells at all after only one hour of infection? Is the protection through certain A. muciniphila metabolites?

      It has been reported that the duration of the co-culture for studying the host-microbiota cross-talk by apical-out organoids model is 1 hour (Poletti et al., 2021). In addition, Co et al. (2019) used apical-out organoids model to study host-pathogen interactions, with Salmonella enterica serovar Typhimurium or Listeria monocytogenes invading organoids for an hour.

      References:

      Poletti M, Arnauts K, Ferrante M, et al. Organoid-based Models to Study the Role of Host-microbiota Interactions in IBD. J. Crohns Colitis. 2021, 15(7): 1222-1235.

      Co JY, Margalef-Catala M, Li XN, et al. Controlling Epithelial Polarity: A Human Enteroid Model for Host-Pathogen Interactions. Cell Reports. 2019, 26(9): 2509-2520.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The manuscript by Ma et al. describes a multi-model (pig, mouse, organoid) investigation into how fecal transplants protect against E. coli infection. The authors identify A. muciniphila and B. fragilis as two important strains and characterize how these organisms impact the epithelium by modulating host signaling pathways, namely the Wnt pathway in lgr5 intestinal stem cells.

      Strengths:

      The strengths of this manuscript include the use of multiple model systems and follow-up mechanistic investigations to understand how A. muciniphila and B. fragilis interacted with the host to impact epithelial physiology.

      Weaknesses:

      The major weakness is that, as presented, the manuscript is quite difficult to follow, even for someone familiar with the field. The lack of detail in figure legends, organization of the text, and frequent use of non-intuitive abbreviated group names without a clear key (ex. EP/EF, or C E A B) make comprehension challenging. The results section is perhaps too succinct and does not provide sufficient information to understand experimental design and interpretation without reading the methods section first or skipping to the discussion (as an example: WNT-c59 treatment). Extensive revisions could be encouraged to aid in communicating the potentially exciting findings.

      The abbreviations of experimental groups are firstly defined in the Methods and Materials, and we have supplemented the experimental design in the results section on line 397-399, 439-442 and 516-520.

      The bioinformatics section of the methods requires revision and may indicate issues in the pipeline. Merging the forward and reverse reads may represent a problem for denoising. Also since these were sequenced on a NovaSeq, the error learning would have to be modified or the diversity estimates would be inappropriately multiplied. "Alpha diversity and beta diversity were calculated by normalized to the same sequence randomly." Not sure what this means, does this mean subsampled? "Blast was used for sequence alignment", does this mean the taxonomic alignment? This would need to be elaborated on and database versions should be included. The methods, including if any form of multiple testing was included, for LEFSE was also not included.

      Denoising was conducted using UNOISE3 to correct for sequencing errors. Subsequent analysis of alpha diversity and beta diversity were all performed based on the output normalized data. Multiple sequence alignment was performed using MUSCLE (v3.8.31) software to obtain the phylogenetic relationships of all OTUs sequences. We have supplemented the method of multiple testing on line 323-328.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      At some points, the rationale for using both porcine and murine models was unclear, and it would be helpful for the reader to elaborate on the benefits of these models and why they were used in the introduction. Similarly, it would be helpful to describe the benefits of basal-in organoids versus injecting standard organoids with bacteria.

      The main subject of this study was piglets, supplemented by a mouse model for validation. Interpretation of measurements from organoid microinjection experiments must account for multiple confounding variables such as heterogeneous exposure concentrations and durations, as well as impacts of disrupting the organoid wall. We have added the description in the introduction on line 88-90.

      Line 165 -- The number of piglets used seems high, is it correct approximately 100 pigs were used?

      Nine litters were selected for processing, while only 18 piglets were finally slaughtered.

      There is very little discussion of the preliminary experiment that the authors used to determine how much bacteria to use. I recommend either discussing the data and how the doses were chosen or omitting it. It was not clear if the authors used pasteurized or live bacteria in the experiments. It would also be interesting to include a discussion of the observation that relatively low levels of Akkermansia (10^6 CFU) appeared more beneficial than the higher doses, typically used in these types of experiments.

      We removed these results. The experiments used live bacteria.

      Microscopy methods for both light microscopy and EM would be stronger with added details including how many sections and fields of view were imaged and how the numbers of goblet cells normalized across samples. Without having a clear cross-section of a crypt, it is not clear to me how the images can be used to accurately quantify the number of cells per crypt. Additional details in the methods on how many total crypts were counted should also be included.

      For light microscopy, 3-4 fields were selected from each mouse to count about 30 crypts. We have removed the data of the mucus layer and goblet cells.

      Line 236 -- missing which gene was used.

      The Genbank Accession was added on line 232-233.

      Line 310 -- OTU nomenclature.

      We have supplemented the OTU nomenclature on line 314.

      Line 413 -- This line seems inconsistent with the data analysis described in the methods section. The authors may need to expand their description of the 16S data analysis to be clear and reproducible.

      We have redescribed the 16S data analysis on line 312-328.

      Line 413 -- it is not surprising that 16s analysis did not capture species, it will have limited resolution beyond the genus level.

      We deleted this sentence.

      Methods are missing some details on the data analysis, eg. methods/programs and statistical analysis of PCoA and NMDS, LefSe.

      The methods and statistical analysis of PCoA, NMDS and LEfSe were supplemented on line 323-328.

      Fig 4C -- The images do not clearly capture the mucus layer or how it was analyzed. The sections appear to be cut at a slight angle, with multiple partial sections of crypts. I think this might make it challenging to count goblet cells, especially if the counts are normalized over the number of crypts or villi. The mucus layer does not appear well preserved. For example, I would expect to see an intact mucus layer lining the colon in the PBS control group. Re-cutting sections with a clean cross-section through the tissue will make data analysis easier.

      We have removed data of the mucus layer.

      Fig 4D -- The images appear to be of the mouse proximal colon, whereas the mucus layer and most muc2 will be in the distal colon. If the authors have tissue sections of the distal colon, this may give a clearer image of the mucus layer and might be more consistent with the TEM images in Fig. 4B.

      We apologize for the absence of the distal colon sections.

      To fully preserve the mucus layer, in addition to fixing in Carnoy's solution, the embedding process must be run without the standard washes in 70% ethanol (see: Johansson and Hansson. Methods Mol Biol. (2012) 229; doi: 10.1007/978-1-61779-513-8_13). The mucus will wash away during standard paraffin embedding if the tissue is washed with 70% ethanol, and I wonder if that has occurred in these samples.

      The tissue wasn’t washed with 70% ethanol.

      Fig 6A and 6B -- Although the legend indicates that the data is representative of two independent experiments, it is not clear how many fields of view or cells were imaged. In the bar graphs, it is not clear how many crypts were analyzed and from how many fields of view.

      3-4 fields were selected from each mouse to count about 30 crypts.

      **For all of the bar graphs, this could be addressed by displaying all of the data points, rather than just the mean, to give the reader a sense of how many cells were counted. (as was done in Fig 7B).

      We have changed the bar graphs with data points.

      498-501 -- The text says that the gene expression patterns in the organoids are consistent with the in vivo data, but the data patterns of gene expression appear to be different. For example, patterns for Wnt3 and B-catenin expression in mice, appear to be the opposite of what was observed in the organoid?

      Lines 509-512 mean that the expression patterns of mice in organoids and in vivo is consistent. Figure 7C was incorrectly written as Figure 8C, we have changed it.

      Since Akkermansia does not grow under aerobic conditions, it should be made clear that the organoid co-culture treatment does not involve actively growing bacterial cultures.

      Reunanen et al. found that Akkermansia can tolerate oxygen, more than 90% Akkermansia can keep for 1 h under oxic, 5% CO2 conditions.

      Reference:

      Reunanen J, Kainulainen V, Huuskonen L, et al. Akkermansia muciniphila Adheres to Enterocytes and Strengthens the Integrity of the Epithelial Cell Layer. Appl. Environ. Microbiol. 2015, 81(11): 3655-3662.

      Minor points

      Line 50 -"evidence".

      We have changed to “evidence” on line 49.

      Line 64, 422 - italicize, check italics throughout.

      We have checked italics throughout the manuscript.

      Line 64 - may need to be reworded.

      We have changed to “Clostridioides difficile” on line 66.

      Line 77 - pathogen.

      We have changed to “pathogen” on line 77.

      Line 161 - the.

      We have removed “the” on line 161.

      Line 178 - mouse.

      We have changed to “mouse” on line 179.

      Line 313 -- wording is confusing.

      We have changed the description on line 319-320.

      Line 318 -- Silva version #.

      The version is Silva 132. We have added it on line 316.

      Line 334 - Manufacturer for Live/Dead cell stain?

      The Live/Dead cell stain was used BD Biosciences FVS510. We have added it on line 345.

      Line 433 -- FD4 not defined until here.

      We have refined the FD4 on line 218-219.

      Line 512 -- but did not promote.

      We have changed to “but did not promote” on line 526.

      Line 517 -- Looks like this should be "basal-in organoids" instead of basal-out?

      We have changed the "basal-out" to "apical-to" on line 531.

      Line 546 -- induced neonatal should be protected?

      They are in separate pens.

      Jumps from Fig 7B to Fig 8C in the text.

      We apologize for the wrong writing, and we have change it.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for The Authors):

      The title itself is a bit misleading. Please consider changing it. The authors meant that A. muciniphila prevents pathogen invasion, but does not function in pathogen invasion.

      We have changed the title.

      Major comments:

      - Figures 4A, 4D, and 6B should include presentation of cross-section pictures.

      We provided cross-section pictures to the journal.

      - Figures 7, 8, and 9 should indicate clearly whether mouse or piglet organoids are used. For instance, in the main text, line 490, it indicates piglet organoids, but in Figure 7A legend, it indicates mouse tissue.

      We apologize for the misspelling, and have changed to “mice” on line 501-502.

      - In Figure 7A, the 3rd row, 2nd panel, crypts formed into spherical organoids; whereas in Figure 8, ETEC infection of basal-out organoids formed budding organoids. This needs to be better explained.

      Mouse intestinal organoids were cultured ex vivo from crypts isolated from mice infected with ETEC, while porcine intestinal organoids were co-cultured with ETEC in vitro.

      Minor comments:

      - In the result section, the numbering of Figures or supplementary Figures is problematic, i.e it should start with Figure 1..., Figure S1, but not directly go to Figure S2A etc.

      The Figure 1 was in Materials and Methods.

      - Line 458, please add the gating strategy used in the flow cytometry study.

      The gating strategy was added on line 351-356.

      - The effect of A. muciniphila on the proliferation of intestinal epithelium through the Wnt/β-catenin signaling pathway is well known (such as PMID: 32138776). The authors should discuss this in detail.

      We have supplemented the discussion on line 637-639.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      It is somewhat unusual that the results from the piglets are in the supplement as this is a major strength of the manuscript (Fig S2).

      We have put these results into Figure 2 of the manuscript.

      "Collectively, our results may provide theoretical basis that FMT is a promising mitigation method for pathogenic bacteria infection and a new strategy for precise application of FMT in clinical and livestock production"- This is somewhat of an odd statement as the introduction of the manuscript completely skips over most of what is known about FMTs in the context of C. difficile. Also if anything, does the authors' own data not point mostly at using A. muciniphila on its own? Clinical trials are well underway in humans.

      We have changed the sentences to “Collectively, our results may provide theoretical basis that A. muciniphila is a promising method to repair intestinal barrier damage and a new strategy for the precise application of A. muciniphila in livestock production.” on line 98-100.

      Line 26: I am not sure probiotic is the right word here given its strict scientific definition. Perhaps beneficial or protective would be more appropriate.

      We have changed “probiotic” to “beneficial” on line 25.

      Line 27: I believe AIMD is antibiotic-induced microbiome-depletion in most usages which may be more accurate and informative than dysregulated.

      The type, dosing, and time of antibiotic we used were applied to induce microbiota disorder.

      It would appear that there are issues in the reference formatting where a number of journal names are missing.

      We have re-edited the reference formatting.

      Line 64- I believe eLife requires the standard practice of italicizing genus and species names. Also Clostridium difficile should now be referred to as Clostridioides difficile.

      We have changed to “Clostridioides difficile” and italicized it on line 66 and 569. The italicizing genus and species names were checked throughout the manuscript.

      Figure S2C: is it not clear why the melt curve was included here, but the legend should make it more clear what is being shown. I assume this is to provide evidence of specificity?

      The melting curve was used to demonstrate that only the ETEC K88 could be amplified by the primers we used. We have added an illustration in the figure legend.

      Figure 2D: there should be a quantitative analysis done on the staining of Muc2.

      We have quantified the staining of MUC2 in Figure 3D.

      Figure 3: The legends are not sufficient. For example: it is not clear what Figure 3A actually shows as the y-axis is not labelled and it is not clear what the relationship is between this and the anosim which is a function for permanova.

      Anosim analysis was performed using the R software with anosim package function based on the rank order of Bray-Curtis distance values to test the significance of differences between groups. The y-axis is the rank of the distance between samples.

      Line 416- OTU not OUT.

      We have changed to “OTU” on line 428.

      Figure 4- the naming key needs to be included in the figure legend. C, E, A, and B are immediately obvious.

      The naming key was included in the figure legend.

      Methods: additional information on the flow cytometry gating strategy/controls should be included.

      The gating strategy was added on line 351-356.

    1. especially NDVI (Fig. 5 A, Fig. S5 A), SR (Fig. 5 B, Fig. S5 B), RENDVI (Fig. 5 F, Fig. S5 F), mRENDEVI (Fig. 5 G, Fig. S5 G), mRESR (Fig. 5 H, Fig. S5 H0, VOG1 (Fig. 5 I, Fig. S5 I), PRI (Fig. 5 L, Fig. S5 L), SIPI (Fig. 5 M, Fig. S5 M), RGRI (Fig. 5 N, Fig. S5 N), PSRI (Fig. 5 O, Fig. S5 O) CAR1 (Fig. 5 P, Fig. S5 P), and CAR2 (Fig. 5 Q, Fig. S5 Q).

      Can you spell out these acronyms here so the reader can refer to this section when interpreting the y-axes on Fig. 5 and 6? I see that they're listed in the abbreviations, but it would handy to have them written out in this section of the results.

    1. Note: This response was posted by the corresponding author to Review Commons. The content has not been altered except for formatting.

      Learn more at Review Commons


      Reply to the reviewers

      We thank the reviewers for their positive and constructive criticism. We answer their points one by one below.

      Reviewer #1

      1.) In the baf-1 G12T mutants the authors find reduced levels of lamin in hypodermal nuclei. It would be good to also examine the dynamics of lamin in the second tissue that was subjected to DamID (intestinal cells).

      We provide a complete analysis of GFP::LMN-1 and EMR-1::mCh in control and baf-1(G12T) day 1 adults in intestine and hypodermis and at 20°C and 25°C. These data demonstrate that GFP::LMN-1 expression is reduced in baf-1(G12T) mutants in both tissue and at both temperatures. In contrast, for EMR-1::mCh a significant reduction was only observed in hypodermal nuclei at 20°C.

      The effects on GFP::LMN-1 and EMR-1::mCh in the hypodermis 20°C were reported in Figure 2E-F in the original version of our manuscript. We have moved these data to the new Supplementary Figure S5 and represent instead the data obtained for hypodermis at 25°C in Figure 2E-F for consistency with the data represented in Figure 2A-D. Data on intestine for both markers and both temperatures are also included in the new Supplementary Figure S5.

      We have modified the text as follows:

      “To test the impact of baf-1(G12T) on LMN-1, EMR-1, and BAF-1 localization in vivo, we quantified these factors at the NE of hypodermal and intestinal cells. We observed a significantly lower median GFP::LMN-1 signal at the NE in baf-1(G12T) mutants in both tissues at 20°C and 25°C (Figure ____2E; Supplementary Figure S____5A-C). In contrast, accumulation of EMR-1 at the NE was unaffected by the baf-1(G12T) mutation in both tissues at 25°C and reduced in the hypodermis at 20°C (Figure ____2F; Supplementary Figure S____5D-F). In human NGPS cells, emerin was observed to be delocalized to the ER (Janssen et al., 2022; Puente et al., 2011), but we detected no increase in cytoplasmic EMR-1::mCh signal in the mutant, indicating that this NGPS phenotype is not present in the C. elegans model. In agreement with these microscopy data, analysis of whole-worm mRNA levels by quantitative RT-PCR also revealed a significant reduction in lmn-1 expression whereas emr-1 was unaffected (Supplementary Figure S4E-F).”

      2.) The authors make a statement that EMR-1 expression was reduced in the baf-1 G12T mutant, but do not comment on LMN-1 expression. Can a statement on this be made by RT PCR?

      Our gene expression analysis by RAPID determined a significant reduction in emr-1 expression in the intestine of baf-1(G12T) mutants, using a fold change of 2 as threshold. In contrast, expression of emr-1 in hypodermis as well as baf-1 and lmn-1 expression in both tissues were not significantly different between wild type and baf-1(G12T) mutants in our RAPID data.

      We performed qRT-PCR on bulk mRNA to compare the expression of baf-1, emr-1 and lmn-1 in control versus baf-1(G12T) mutants. No differences were detected for baf-1 and emr-1 (new Supplementary Figure S4E-F). Considering that the qRT-PCR is on bulk mRNA, the emr-1 result is compatible with the RAPID data that suggest deregulation of emr-1 only in intestine and unaffected expression in the hypodermis. For baf-1 there is agreement between qRT-PCR and RAPID data from both tissues (no difference in the mutant). For lmn-1, the qRT-PCR analysis suggests a modest reduction (23%; not reaching the threshold applied in the RAPID analysis) in baf-1(G12T) mutants, which is concordant with the reduction observed in GFP::LMN-1 intensity in hypodermis and intestine by confocal microscopy (e.g. 14% reduction in median GFP::LMN-1 intensity in hypodermis at 25C; Figure 2E).

      The discordance between RAPID and live imaging for emr-1/EMR-1::mCh (a reduction in the intestine or the hypodermis according to RAPID or live imaging, respectively) is not surprising. Although mRNA and protein levels in general correlate well, often, variation in transcription can only explain We have added these two sentences to the manuscript:

      “In agreement with these microscopy data, analysis of whole-worm mRNA levels by quantitative RT-PCR also revealed a significant reduction in lmn-1 expression whereas emr-1 was unaffected (Supplementary Figure S4E-F).”

      “As described above, the amount of endogenously tagged EMR-1::mCh at the NE of intestinal cells was normal in baf-1(G12T) mutants (Supplementary Figure S5F), suggesting a cellular capacity to buffer the downregulation of emr-1 transcription (Vogel & Marcotte, 2012).”

      3.) The authors find few alterations in gene regulation of the loci which have different occupancy WT BAF-1 versus BAF-1 G12T. It was surprising to see the DamID and RNA polymerase DamID experiments be done with worms grown at 20°C, because the more penetrant phenotypes at the organismal level were observed at 25°C. Could this be the reason for the little change of chromatin occupancy of BAF-1 and BAF-1 G12T or few changes in gene expression? Would it make sense to examine the expression of some selected BAF-1 bound loci by single molecule Fish at 25°C and compare expression wt versus baf-1 G12T?

      We performed the DamID experiments at 20°C to avoid potential artifacts and/or toxicity by higher expression levels of Dam fusion proteins (Greil, Moorman, & van Steensel, 2006; Schuster et al., 2010). We note that altered UV and tert-butyl hydroperoxide was observed at 20°C, indicating that the baf-1(G12T) allele affects physiology at several temperatures. The original version of our manuscript described the expression of fluorescently tagged LMN-1 and EMR-1 in the hypodermis at 20°C (Figure 2E-F). As described above, in the revised version, we report the expression in the intestine at 20°C and in both tissues at 25°C. For GFP::LMN-1, a similar reduction in the baf-1(G12T) mutant was observed at the two temperatures in both tissues, whereas for EMR-1::mCh a reduction was only seen in the hypodermis at 20°C. Taken together, we conclude that 20°C is a suitable temperature for the DamID experiments.

      We appreciate the suggestion to study expression of genes bound by BAF-1 by smFISH. However, we anticipate that because the hypodermis is composed mostly of large syncytia covering the round body of the animal, smFISH would be difficult to quantify. Regarding loci with different occupancy of WT BAF-1 versus BAF-1(G12T), the emr-1 locus was bound in the intestine by Dam::BAF-1 but not by Dam::BAF-1(G12T) (Figure 6B). As mentioned above, we observed that emr-1 expression was reduced in intestine of baf-1(G12T) mutants, suggesting that BAF-1 binding has a positive effect of transcription of this locus.

      4.) The finding that BAF-1 nuclear envelope localization remains unchanged in the mutant stems from detection of the inserted GFP epitope. Given that the tag has an influence on the BAF-1 G12 12T mutant viability, this statement should be phrased with more care. The tag could influence the turnover of the protein for example. Maybe Western blots comparing the signal of WT BAF-1 worms and BAF-1 G12T mutant worms would be instructive to compare the levels of the protein (at 20oC and at 25oC, day 1 adults and day 8 adults).

      We performed Western blot experiments to address this. As controls, we included strains expressing equal amounts of GFP::BAF-1 and GFP::BAF-1(G12T) strains (Figure 3E and Supplementary Figure 7 in original manuscript reported equal expression of the two proteins). Surprisingly, the polyclonal anti-BAF-1 serum raised against recombinant, full-length wild type BAF-1 (Gorjanacz et al., 2007) has significantly lower affinity for mutant GFP::BAF-1(G12T) than for GFP::BAF-1, which precludes the evaluation of untagged proteins:


      Figure 1. [png file provided to reviewers - not possible to include here for technical reasons] Western blot analyses with anti-BAF-1 serum (Gorjanacz et al, 2007). (A) Embryonic extracts. A band of the expected size is observed in wildtype embryos (*), but not in baf-1(G12T) embryos. (B) Extracts from young adults. A faint band of the expected size is observed in wildtype embryos (* in lane 1; longer exposure is shown below), whereas a more prominent band is present corresponding to endogenously tagged GFP::BAF-1 (** in lane 2). The intensity of the potential GFP::BAF-1(G12T) is reduced by >80% (lane 4; >90% reduction was observed in a second experiment).

      We point out in the revised manuscript that the conclusion on equal BAF-1 and BAF-1(G12T) expression was based on endogenously tagged proteins: “Quantifying the intensity at the NE or in the nucleoplasm of hypodermal cells did not demonstrate any difference between endogenously GFP-tagged wild-type and mutant BAF-1 (Figure 3E). A small reduction in cytoplasmic signal was observed for BAF-1(G12T), however, no difference was detected in the ratio between nucleoplasmic/cytoplasmic signal (Figure 3E). Quantitative RT-PCR analysis of whole-worm RNA samples also indicated that baf-1 and baf-1(G12T) are expressed at identical levels (Supplementary Figure S4E-F).”

      5.) Line 105: typo: remove "s"

      Corrected.

      6.) Line 154: A conclusion is missing for the fog-2 experiment.

      We have modified the text as follows: “To test this possibility, we incubated baf-1(G12T) males with fog-2(q71) feminized worms that only produce oocytes and counted daily offspring. At 25°C, the fog-2(q71) allele prevents spermatogenesis specifically in XX hermaphrodites whereas X0 males are unaffected (Schedl & Kimble, 1988). We observed a reduction in brood size of approximately one third when sperm came from baf-1(G12T) males (Supplementary Figure S2B, C). Thus, we concluded that the baf-1(G12T) mutation has a negative impact on spermatogenesis. The male/female ratio in the progeny was ~1, suggesting that meiotic segregation of chromosomes was normal in baf-1(G12T) males.”

      7). Would it make sense to discuss a possible influence of altered lamin binding to the nuclear envelope in the mutant in the context of the gene expression results?

      We agree that this point is relevant, and we have added the following text to the Discussion: “At current, we can only speculate about how the NGPS mutation might affect gene expression. Proteomics analyses indicate that BAF interacts with several histones and transcription factors (Montes de Oca, Shoemaker, Gucek, Cole, & Wilson, 2009), and the differences between BAF-1 and BAF-1(G12T)’s chromatin binding profiles reported here might be accompanied by changes in the association of chromatin factors at the deregulated loci. A particularly interesting candidate is GCL-1/germ cell-less 1, a repressive factor involved in spermatogenesis (Holaska, Lee, Kowalski, & Wilson, 2003). Moreover, it is plausible that the diminished recruitment of LMN-1 to the NE in baf-1(G12T) mutants modifies its interaction with the genome and with chromatin factors.”

      8). In a nutshell, the authors have established a convincing accessible model system for studying aging, ready for consecutive testing interventions to reduce the pace of premature aging.

      We appreciate and share the opinion of the reviewer.

      Reviewer #2

      1). The value of this work is two-fold: First, it is a very robust characterization of NGPS worms. Second, this will be a very useful model for the study of NGPS. Overall, the study is well-designed, technically strong, and the results are carefully and thoughtfully interpreted, which is nicely exemplified by the discussion of the relatively small number of genes which are differentially bound by BAF1 and are also differentially expressed and the authors do a good job of not overinterpreting the data, but simply state them. The results are convincing and informative.

      We thank the reviewer for her/his positive evaluation.

      My only minor point that may make this paper marginally better is that it would be nice to have a paragraph in the Discussing elaborating on the potential and the limitations of using the worm model to understand human NGPS, for example, humans have multiple lamin proteins etc.

      We agree with the reviewer and have added the following text to the Discussion: “We note that the simplicity of invertebrates also implies certain limitations. For instance, while both human and C. elegans genomes contain a single BAF gene, humans, but not C. elegans, express multiple lamin isoforms in tissue-specific ratios that regulate chromatin organization and nuclear mechanics (Swift et al., 2013). Thus, C. elegans is not suitable to explore potential differences in how wild type and NGPS BAF interacts differently with the various lamin isoforms.”

      Reviewer #3

      1). Overall, this manuscript strongly supports the major conclusion that this C. elegans line is a powerful model for human NGPS that complements a previously reported Drosophila model. Equally importantly, from the viewpoint of fundamental discovery, this manuscript also reports major advances in understanding how BAF influences gene expression at the molecular level.

      We thank the reviewer for her/his positive evaluation.

      2). DamID-Baf-1 access to chromatin was unaffected by the G12T mutation (Fig. S7), but they successfully identified subsets of genes 'occupied' by baf-1 in specific cell types, some of which were significantly affected in opposite ways by the NGPS mutation (Fig. 4, Fig. 5). However, these important new results are described too briefly, and discussion is inadequate. E.g., in hypodermal cells, the baf-1 G12T mutation dysregulated genes encoding proteins in five categories (ribosomal, proton transport, cuticle components, cell surface, lysine acetylation), by downregulating genes in three categories (ribosomal, proton transport, histone acetylation) and upregulating three other categories (cuticle components, cell surface, apical region). In intestinal cells, the mutation dysregulated genes in 8 categories (ribosomal, response to X-ray, proton transport, proteasome binding, mitochondrial protein import, endopeptidase activity, carboxy-lyase activity, ATP generation), by downregulating genes in 5 categories (ribosomal, proton transport, peptidase activity, NAD binding, metal cluster binding) and upregulating 3 categories (ribosomal, response to external stimulation, histone acetylation). Opposite results for "ribosomal genes" is confusing. Examples of genes in each affected category are shown in Fig. 6. To fully interpret this data, and address apparently-conflicting results, further analysis is needed to determine if any affected groups of genes have shared regulators. For example, Fig 5E shows "ribosomal protein genes" are both up- and down-regulated by the mutation. The authors should consider: (a) WHICH ribosomal genes are in each category, and (b) does either group of genes have known regulators that might be differentially affected by the baf-1 mutation? Similar consideration of other sets of differentially-affected genes might provide novel insight into specific chromatin-regulatory proteins (e.g., potential baf-1 partners; see next paragraph) affected by the NGPS mutation.

      At first it may seem confusing that some ribosomal genes are downregulated while others are upregulated. However, the baf-1(G12T) mutant represents a disease situation and not a process of natural selection where one might expect “meaningful” groups of up- and down-regulated genes. We have looked closer at the individual deregulated ribosomal genes and found genes encoding structural components of large ribosomal subunits that are either upregulated (rpl-10, rpl-29, rpl-36) or downregulated (rpl-1, rpl-3, rpl-30) in the intestine. Although these opposite behaviors might seem confusing, we propose that they reflect deregulation of ribosome biosynthesis, which is in concordance with the observations in NGPS fibroblasts (Breusegem et al., 2022). We agree that it will be important to investigate how the NGPS mutation induces these oppositely directed effects on gene expression. We found a significant higher association of the 13 deregulated ribosomal genes to BAF-1(G12) than to BAF-1 in the intestine, but we believe it goes beyond the scope of this manuscript to focus on the underlying mechanisms.

      3). The current manuscript is too strictly focused on establishing C. elegans as a model for NGPS, and neglects the novel discoveries. The authors did not consider or discuss HOW a baf-1 mutation might cause such complex gene expression outcomes- given that baf-1 binds dsDNA nonspecifically. One plausible molecular explanation is that the NGPS mutation might affect baf-1 interactions with: (a) transcription factors (Requiem, RBBP4, DDB1) or chromatin-regulators (PARP1; UV-regulated interactions with DDB2 and CUL4A) identified as BAF-associated in a proteomic study (Montes de Oca et al., 2009), or (b) histone modifiers such as SET/I2PP2A (blocks H3 dephosphorylation) or H3K9 methyltransferase 'G9a' (Montes de Oca et al., 2011), or (c) other regulators that control affected genes identified in this manuscript.

      We agree that this point is very relevant, but at this point we do not have experimental support for any of these possibilities. As indicated in the response to Reviewer #2, we have added the following text to the Discussion: “At current, we can only speculate about how the NGPS mutation might affect gene expression. Proteomics analyses indicate that BAF interacts with several histones and transcription factors (Montes de Oca et al., 2009), and the differences between BAF-1 and BAF-1(G12T)’s chromatin binding profiles reported here might be accompanied by changes in the association of chromatin factors at the deregulated loci. A particularly interesting candidate is GCL-1/germ cell-less 1, a repressive factor involved in spermatogenesis (Holaska et al., 2003). Moreover, it is plausible that the diminished recruitment of LMN-1 to the NE in baf-1(G12T) mutants modifies its interaction with the genome and with chromatin factors.”

      4). Figures 1, 2, 4, 5: the graphs in Fig 1A,B,D-F and Fig 2B,D and the colorscales in Fig 4F and Fig 5E are uninterpretable when printed in black-and-white. Please fix Figs 1 and 2 using black/light-gray/white/stippled for bar graphs, and black/light-gray/solid/dotted/dashed for line graphs. Fig 2B can be fixed by direct-labeling of class numbers within each bar (instead of 'color-coding' separately).

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We have modified the figures to enable better visualization when printed in BW.

      5). Revise abstract lines 40-42 ("suggesting a direct relationship between BAF-1 binding [to what?] and gene expression") to reflect the deeper analysis.

      We have rephrased this sentence, so it now reads: “Most genes deregulated by the baf-1(G12T) mutation were characterized by a change in BAF-1 association, suggesting a direct relation between association of a gene to BAF-1 and its expression.” However, we prefer to not extend into speculations in the abstract because of lack of experimental evidence.

      6). Lines 132-155 (Figure 1): The impact on sperm production suggests the NGPS mutation might affect association with Germ cell-less (GCL), a transcription repressor that competes with BAF for binding to emerin in mammalian cells (Holaska et al., 2003 JBC).

      This is indeed an interesting possibility and we have incorporated it into to Discussion (see answer to point 3 above).

      7). Lines 151-154: Did not understand the fog-2 'feminized worm' experiments. Please briefly explain for non-worm experts.

      Please see our response to Reviewer #1’s point 6.

      8). Line 190: Clarify that nuclear shapes were categorized manually by single-blind observer.

      We have amended the text: “Nuclei were manually classified by single-blind observer based on their morphology as previously described (Perez-Jimenez, Rodriguez-Palero, Rodenas, Askjaer, & Munoz, 2014), except that we introduced a fourth class to describe the most irregular nuclei (see Materials and Methods).”

      9). Line 237-252: Abnormal chromosome segregation and postmitotic nuclear assembly in all gfp::baf-1(G12T) embryos is fully consistent (not 'presumably causative'; line 251) with the embryonic loss-of-function phenotype for baf-1 (Margalit et al., 2005, PNAS) and is consistent with mutational disruption of binding to lamin (Liu J et al., 2000, MBC) and/or LEM-domain proteins (Liu J, Lee KK et al., 2003, PNAS).

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. We have added the following sentence: “These phenotypes are consistent with the effects of embryonic depletion of BAF-1 or LMN-1 (Liu et al., 2000; Margalit, Segura-Totten, Gruenbaum, & Wilson, 2005).”

      10). Lines 530-533: Baf-1 localization (mobility) in intestinal cells is known to change profoundly in response to heat shock, caloric restriction or food deprivation (Bar et al., 2014, MBC). It would be worthwhile testing, in future, whether the NGPS mutation affects baf-1 localization in response to these stresses.

      We appreciate this suggestion, and we agree with the reviewer that it would be important to test this in future studies.

      Other changes:

      Missing column in Table S3 added.

      Mistake if column heading in Table S4 corrected.

      Breusegem, S. Y., Houghton, J., Romero-Bueno, R., Fragoso-Luna, A., Kentistou, K. A., Ong, K. K., . . . Larrieu, D. (2022). A multiparametric anti-aging CRISPR screen uncovers a role for BAF in protein translation. bioRxiv. doi:10.1101/2022.10.07.509469

      Gorjanacz, M., Klerkx, E. P., Galy, V., Santarella, R., Lopez-Iglesias, C., Askjaer, P., & Mattaj, I. W. (2007). Caenorhabditis elegans BAF-1 and its kinase VRK-1 participate directly in post-mitotic nuclear envelope assembly. Embo J, 26(1), 132-143. doi:10.1038/sj.emboj.7601470

      Greil, F., Moorman, C., & van Steensel, B. (2006). DamID: mapping of in vivo protein-genome interactions using tethered DNA adenine methyltransferase. Methods Enzymol, 410, 342-359. doi:10.1016/S0076-6879(06)10016-6

      Holaska, J. M., Lee, K. K., Kowalski, A. K., & Wilson, K. L. (2003). Transcriptional repressor germ cell-less (GCL) and barrier to autointegration factor (BAF) compete for binding to emerin in vitro. J Biol Chem, 278(9), 6969-6975.

      Janssen, A., Marcelot, A., Breusegem, S., Legrand, P., Zinn-Justin, S., & Larrieu, D. (2022). The BAF A12T mutation disrupts lamin A/C interaction, impairing robust repair of nuclear envelope ruptures in Nestor-Guillermo progeria syndrome cells. Nucleic Acids Res. doi:10.1093/nar/gkac726

      Liu, J., Rolef Ben-Shahar, T., Riemer, D., Treinin, M., Spann, P., Weber, K., . . . Gruenbaum, Y. (2000). Essential roles for Caenorhabditis elegans lamin gene in nuclear organization, cell cycle progression, and spatial organization of nuclear pore complexes. Mol Biol Cell, 11(11), 3937-3947.

      Margalit, A., Segura-Totten, M., Gruenbaum, Y., & Wilson, K. L. (2005). Barrier-to-autointegration factor is required to segregate and enclose chromosomes within the nuclear envelope and assemble the nuclear lamina. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A, 102(9), 3290-3295. doi:10.1073/pnas.0408364102

      Montes de Oca, R., Shoemaker, C. J., Gucek, M., Cole, R. N., & Wilson, K. L. (2009). Barrier-to-autointegration factor proteome reveals chromatin-regulatory partners. PLoS ONE, 4(9), e7050. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0007050

      Perez-Jimenez, M. M., Rodriguez-Palero, M. J., Rodenas, E., Askjaer, P., & Munoz, M. J. (2014). Age-dependent changes of nuclear morphology are uncoupled from longevity in Caenorhabditis elegans IGF/insulin receptor daf-2 mutants. Biogerontology, 15(3), 279-288. doi:10.1007/s10522-014-9497-0

      Puente, X. S., Quesada, V., Osorio, F. G., Cabanillas, R., Cadinanos, J., Fraile, J. M., . . . Lopez-Otin, C. (2011). Exome sequencing and functional analysis identifies BANF1 mutation as the cause of a hereditary progeroid syndrome. Am J Hum Genet, 88(5), 650-656. doi:10.1016/j.ajhg.2011.04.010

      Schedl, T., & Kimble, J. (1988). fog-2, a germ-line-specific sex determination gene required for hermaphrodite spermatogenesis in Caenorhabditis elegans. Genetics, 119(1), 43-61. doi:10.1093/genetics/119.1.43

      Schuster, E., McElwee, J. J., Tullet, J. M., Doonan, R., Matthijssens, F., Reece-Hoyes, J. S., . . . Gems, D. (2010). DamID in C. elegans reveals longevity-associated targets of DAF-16/FoxO. Mol Syst Biol, 6, 399. doi:10.1038/msb.2010.54

      Swift, J., Ivanovska, I. L., Buxboim, A., Harada, T., Dingal, P. C., Pinter, J., . . . Discher, D. E. (2013). Nuclear lamin-A scales with tissue stiffness and enhances matrix-directed differentiation. Science, 341(6149), 1240104. doi:10.1126/science.1240104

      Vogel, C., & Marcotte, E. M. (2012). Insights into the regulation of protein abundance from proteomic and transcriptomic analyses. Nat Rev Genet, 13(4), 227-232. doi:10.1038/nrg3185

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This study identifies new types of interactions between Drosophila gustatory receptor neurons (GRNs) and shows that these interactions influence sensory responses and behavior. The authors find that HCN, a hyperpolarization-activated cation channel, suppresses the activity of GRNs in which it is expressed, preventing those GRNs from depleting the sensillum potential, and thereby promoting the activity of neighboring GRNs in the same sensilla. HCN is expressed in sugar GRNs, so HCN dampens the excitation of sugar GRNs and promotes the excitation of bitter GRNs. Impairing HCN expression in sugar GRNs depletes the sensillum potential and decreases bitter responses, especially when flies are fed on a sugar-rich diet, and this leads to decreased bitter aversion in a feeding assay. The authors' conclusions are supported by genetic manipulations, electrophysiological recordings, and behavioral assays.

      Strengths:

      (1) Non-synaptic interactions between neurons that share an extracellular environment (sometimes called "ephaptic" interactions) have not been well-studied, and certainly not in the insect taste system. A major strength of this study is the new insight it provides into how these interactions can impact sensory coding and behavior.

      We appreciate the reviewer’ view that our findings may allow researchers to better understand sensory coding and behavior. However, we respectfully disagree that the SP homeostasis in Drosophila gustation we describe here pertains to ephaptic interaction. Although SP reduction was proposed as the basis of post-ephaptic hyperpolarization in Drosophila olfaction, we find that SP changes are found to be too slow to mediate the fast action of ephaptic inhibition in gustation, reported in the ref#17. We observed a slow, sweet-dependent SP depletion (Fig. 5B, revised), which takes more than one hour. The real-time change of SP was also slow even upon contact with 200-mM sucrose; this result was set aside for another manuscript in preparation. Therefore, we believe the main findings in this paper concern the homeostatic preservation of SP for the maintenance of gustatory function, not ephaptic interaction.

      (2) The authors use many different types of genetic manipulations to dissect the role of HCN in GRN function, including mutants, RNAi, overexpression, ectopic expression, and neuronal silencing. Their results convincingly show that HCN impacts the sensillum potential and has both cell-autonomous and nonautonomous effects that go in opposite directions. There are a couple of conflicting or counterintuitive results, but the authors discuss potential explanations.

      (3) Experiments comparing flies raised on different food sources suggest an explanation for why the system may have evolved the way that it did: when flies live in a sugar-rich environment, their bitter sensitivity decreases, and HCN expression in sugar GRNs helps to counteract this decrease.

      Weaknesses/Limitations:

      (1) The genetic manipulations were constitutive (e.g. Ih mutations, RNAi, or misexpression), and depleting Ih from birth could lead to compensatory effects that change the function of the neurons or sensillum. Using tools to temporally control Ih expression could help to confirm the results of this study.

      We attempted to address this point by using the tub-Gal80ts system. The result is now included as Fig. 1-figure supplement 2. At 29C, a non-permissive temperature for GAL80ts which allows GAL4-dependent expression Ih-RNAi, we observed that bGRN responses were decreased and sGRN responses were increased compared to the control maintained at 18°C, and this is in parallel with the result in Fig. 1C,D. For this experiment, we inserted “To exclude the possibility that Ih is required for normal gustatory development, we temporally controlled Ih RNAi knockdown to occur only in adulthood, which produced similar results (Fig. 1-figure supplement 2).” (~line 113).

      (2) The behavioral experiment shows a striking loss of bitter sensitivity, but it was only conducted for one bitter compound at one concentration. It is not clear how general this effect is. The same is true for some of the bitter GRN electrophysiological experiments that only tested one compound and concentration.

      We conducted additional behavioral experiments with other bitters such as lobeline and theophylline (Fig. 5-figure supplement 1), which showed sensitivity losses in Ih mutants similar to caffeine. For these results, the following is inserted at ~line 274: “These results were recapitulated with other bitters, lobeline and theophylline (Fig. 5-figure supplement 1).”

      We also added single sensillum recording data with bitters, berberine, lobeline, theophylline and umbelliferone, which yielded results similar to those obtained with caffeine (Fig. 1-figure supplement 1). This is described with the sentence at ~line 105 “Other bitter chemical compounds, berberine, lobeline, theophylline, and umbelliferone, also required Ih for normal bGRN responses (Fig. 1-figure supplement 1).”

      (3) Several experiments using the Gal4/UAS system only show the Gal4/+ control and not the UAS/+ control (or occasionally neither control). Since some of the measurements in control flies seem to vary (e.g., spiking rate), it is important to compare the experimental flies to both controls to ensure that any observed effects are in fact due to the transgene expression.

      We appreciate the reviewers for raising this point. Indeed, there was a small logical flaw with the controls. We have now included all the necessary controls for Fig. 1C-F, Fig. 2I,J, Fig. 4E, and Fig. 5D, as reviewers suggested. These experiments remained statistically significant after including the new control groups.

      (4) I was surprised that manipulations of sugar GRNs (e.g. Ih knockdown, Gr64a-f deletion, or Kir silencing) can impact the sensillum potential and bitter GRN responses even in experiments where no sugar was presented.

      We are afraid there is a misunderstanding on the early part of the paper. We suspected that the manipulations impacted bGRNs and SP due to the sweetness in the regular cornmeal food, as stated in lines 214-220 “Typically, we performed extracellular recordings on flies 4-5 days after eclosion, during which they were kept in a vial with fresh regular cornmeal food containing ~400 mM D-glucose. The presence of sweetness in the food would impose long-term stimulation of sGRNs, potentially requiring the delimitation of sGRN excitability for the homeostatic maintenance of gustatory functions. To investigate this possibility, we fed WT and Ihf03355 flies overnight with either non-sweet sorbitol alone (200 mM) or a sweet mixture of sorbitol (200 mM) + sucrose (100 mM).”

      I believe the authors are suggesting that the effects of sugar GRN activity (e.g., from consuming sugar in the fly food prior to the experiment) can have long-lasting effects, but it wasn't entirely clear if this is their primary explanation or on what timescale those long-lasting effects would occur. How much / how long of a sugar exposure do the flies need for these effects to be triggered, and how long do those effects last once sugar is removed?

      We attempted to address this point with additional experiments (Fig. 5A,B). The reduction of SP could be observed in WT and HCN-deficient mutants with similar degrees 1 hr after the flies were transferred from nonsweet sorbitol-containing vials to sweet sucrose-containing ones. Moreover, the mutants, but not WT, showed further depression of SP when the sweetness persisted in the media for 4 hrs and overnight. This long-term exposure to sweetness longer than 1 hr may simulates the feeding on the regular sweet cornmeal food. The recovery of SP was also tested by removing flies from the sweet media after overnight-long sweet exposure and placing them in sorbitol food. SPs of WT and the mutants were recovered to the similar levels 1 hr after separating the animals from sweetness, although the HCN-lacking mutants showed much lower SP right after overnight sweetness exposure. The unimpaired recovery of the mutants suggests that HCN is independent of generating transepithelial potential itself. Therefore, regardless of HCN, SP changes are not fast even in the presence of strong sweetness, and SP is much better guarded when sGRNs express HCN in a sweet environment.

      We inserted the following at ~line 260 to describe the newly added recovery experiment: “Following overnight sweet exposure, SPs of WT and Ihf03355 were recovered to similar levels after 1-hr incubation with sorbitol only food. However, it was after 4 hrs on the sorbitol food that the two lines exhibited SP levels similar to those achieved by overnight incubation with sorbitol only food (Fig. 5B). These results indicate that SP depletion by sweetness is a slow process, and that the dysregulated reduction and recovery of SPs in Ihf03355 manifest only after long-term conditioning with and without sweetness, respectively.”.

      (5) The authors mention that HCN may impact the resting potential in addition to changing the excitability of the cell through various mechanisms. It would be informative to record the resting potential and other neuronal properties, but this is very difficult for GRNs, so the current study is not able to determine exactly how HCN affects GRN activity.

      On this point, we cannot but rely on previous studies of biophysical and electrophysiological characterization on mammalian HCN channels and a heterologous expression study that revealed a robust hyperpolarization-activated cation current from Drosophila HCN channels (PMID: 15804582).

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, the authors start by showing that HCN loss-of-function mutation causes a decrease in spiking in bitter GRNs (bGRN) while leaving sweet GRN (sGRN) response in the same sensillum intact. They show that a perturbation of HCN channels in sweet-sensing neurons causes a similar decrease while increasing the response of sugar neurons. They were also able to rescue the response by exogenous expression. Ectopic expression of HCN in bitter neurons had no effect. Next, they measure the sensillum potential and find that sensillum potential is also affected by HCN channel perturbation. These findings lead them to speculate that HCN in sGRN increases sGRN spiking which in turn affects bGRNs. To test this idea that carried out multiple perturbations aimed at decreasing sGRN activity. They found that decreasing sGRN activity by either using receptor mutant or by expressing Kir (a K+ channel) in sGRN increased bGRN responses. These responses also increase the sensillum potential. Finally, they show that these changes are behaviorally relevant as conditions that increase sGRN activity decrease avoidance of bitter substances.

      Strengths:

      There is solid evidence that perturbation of sweet GRNs affects bitter GRN in the same sensillum. The measurement of transsynaptic potential and how it changes is also interesting and supports the authors' conclusion.

      Weaknesses:

      The ionic basis of how perturbation in GRN affects the transepithelial potential which in turn affects the second neuron is not clear.

      We speculate that HCN-dependent membrane potential regulation, rather than ionic composition change, is responsible for the observed SP preservation, as further discussed as an author response in the section of “Recommendations for the authors”. The transepithelial potential can be dissipated by increased conductance through receptor-linked ion channels following gustatory receptor activation in GRNs. The volume of the sensillum lymph is very small according to electron micrographs of horizontally sliced bristles (PMID: 11456419). Therefore, robust excitation of a gustatory neuron may easily deplete the extracellular potential built as a form of polarized ion concentrations across the tight junction. When the consumption is too strong and extended, the neighboring neuron, which share TEP with the activated GRN, can be negatively affected. We propose that HCN suppresses overexcitation of sGRNs by means of membrane potential stabilization. This stabilization prevents sGRNs from excessively reducing the TEP, thereby protecting the activity of neighboring bGRNs.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Ephaptic inhibition between neurons housed in the same sensilla has been long discovered in flies, but the molecular basis underlying this inhibition is underexplored. Specifically, it remains poorly understood which receptors or channels are important for maintaining the transepithelial potential between the sensillum lymph and the hemolymph (known as the sensillum potential), and how this affects the excitability of neurons housed in the same sensilla.

      Although a reduction of sensillum potential was proposed to underlie membrane hyperpolarization of post-ephaptic olfactory neurons in Drosophila, our preliminary data (not shown due to a manuscript in preparation) and the results included in the paper (Fig. 5B) strongly suggest that SP reduction is not a requisite for ephaptic inhibition at least in GRNs. Ephaptic inhibition is expected to be instantaneous, whereas we find that SP reduction in gustation is very slow. Therefore, we would like to indicate that the findings we report in this manuscript are not directly related to ephaptic inhibition.

      Lee et al. used single-sensillum recordings (SSR) of the labellar taste sensilla to demonstrate that the HCN channel, Ih, is critical for maintaining sensillum potential in flies. Ih is expressed in sugar-sensing GRNs (sGRNs) but affects the excitability of both the sGRNs and the bitter-sensing GRNs (bGRNs) in the same sensilla. Ih mutant flies have decreased sensillum potential, and bGRNs of Ih mutant flies have a decreased response to the bitter compound caffeine. Interestingly, ectopic expression of Ih in bGRNs also increases sGRN response to sucrose, suggesting that Ih-dependent increase in sensillum potential is not specific to Ih expressed in sGRNs. The authors further demonstrated, using both SSR and behavior assays, that exposure to sugars in the food substrate is important for the Ih-dependent sensitization of bGRNs. The experiments conducted in this paper are of interest to the chemosensory field. The observation that Ih is important for the activity in bGRNs albeit expressed in sGRNs is especially fascinating and highlights the importance of non-synaptic interactions in the taste system.

      Despite the interesting results, this paper is not written in a clear and easily understandable manner. It uses poorly defined terms without much elaboration, contains sentences that are borderline unreadable even for those in the narrower chemosensory field, and many figures can clearly benefit from more labeling and explanation. It certainly needs a bit of work.

      We would like to revise the language aspect of the manuscript after finalizing the scientific revision.

      Below are the major points:

      (1) Throughout the paper, it is assumed that Ih channels are expressed in sugar-sensing GRNs but not bitter-sensing GRNs. However, both this paper and citation #17, another paper from the same lab, contain only circumstantial evidence for the expression of Ih channels in sGRNs. A simple co-expression analysis, using the Ih-T2A-GAL4 line and Gr5a-LexA/Gr66a-LexA line, all of which are available, could easily demonstrate the co-expression. Including such a figure would significantly strengthen the conclusion of this paper.

      We did conduct confocal imaging with Ih-T2A-Gal4 in combination with GRN Gal4s (ref#17 version2). The expression is very broad, including both neurons and non-neuronal cells. We observed much stronger sGRN expression than bGRN expression. But the promiscuous expression of the reporter in many cells hindered us from clearly demonstrating the void of the reporter in bGRNs. However, the functional and physiological examination of Ih-T2A-Gal4 with the neuronal modifiers such as TRPA1 and Kir2.1 in ref#17 indicates the strong and little expression of Ih in sGRNs and bGRNs, respectively. Furthermore, the RNAi kd results present another line of evidence that HCN expressed in sGRNs regulates SP and bGRN activity (Fig. 1C,D, Fig. 1-figure supplement 2). Ih-RNAi expression in bGRNs did not result in any statistically significant changes in the activities of sGRNs and bGRNs compared to controls (Fig. 1C,D, revised), advocating that Ih acts in sGRNs for the functional homeostasis of SP and GRNs, as we claim.

      (2) Throughout this paper, it is often unclear which class of labellar taste sensilla is being recorded. S-a, S-b, I-a, and I-b sensilla all have different sensitivities to bitters and sugars. Each figure should clearly indicate which sensilla is being recorded. Justification should be provided if recordings from different classes of sensilla are being pooled together for statistics.

      We mainly performed SSR (single sensillum recording) on i-type bristles as they have the simplest composition of GRNs compared to s- and L-type bristles. As single s-types also contain each of s- and bGRN, we measured SP also for s-types (Figs. 2, 3F and 4D). In case of Fig.3-figure supplement 1, L-types were tested for the relationship between water cell activity and SP. Now all the panels are labelled with the tested bristle types.

      (3) In many figures, there is a lack of critical control experiments. Examples include Figures 1C-F (lacking UAS control), Figure 2I-J (lacking UAS control), Figure 4E (lacking the UAS and GAL4 control, and it is also strange to compare Gr64f > RNAi with Gr66a > RNAi, instead of with parental GAL4 and UAS controls.), and Figure 5D (lacking UAS control). Without these critical control experiments, it is difficult to evaluate the quality of the work.

      Thank you for pointing this out. We appreciate the feedback and have addressed these concerns by including all the requested controls in the figures. Specifically, we have added the UAS controls for Figs 1C-F and 2I-J, as well as the UAS and GAL4 controls for Fig. 4E. We have also included the UAS control for Fig. 5D.

      (4) Figure 2A could benefit from more clarification about what exactly is being recorded here. The text is confusing: a considerable amount of text is spent on explaining the technical details of how SP is recorded, but very little text about what SP represents, which is critical for the readers. The authors should clarify in the text that SP is measuring the potential between the sensillar lymph, where the dendrites of GRNs are immersed, and the hemolymph. Adding a schematic figure to show that SP represents the potential between the sensillar lymph and hemolymph would be beneficial.

      SP was defined at lines 55-56 in the first paragraph of introduction, which also contains the background information for SP as a transepithelial potential. As reviewer suggested, we now also included a sentence describing SP (“SP is known as a transepithelial potential between the sensillum lymph and the hemolymph, generated by active ion transport through support cells”, line 126) and a drawing to illustrate the concept of SP (Fig. 2A), and revised the legend.

      (5) The sGRN spiking rate in Figure 4B deviates significantly from previous literature (Wang, Carlson, eLife 2022; Jiao, Montell PNAS 2007, as examples), and the response to sucrose in the control flies is not dosage-dependent, which raises questions about the quality of the data. Why are the responses to sucrose not dosage-dependent? The responses are clearly not saturated at these (10 mM to 100 mM) concentrations.

      Our recordings show different spiking frequencies from others’ work, because the frequencies are from 5-sec bins not only first 0.5 sec. This lowers the frequencies, as spikes are relatively more frequent in the beginning of the recording (Fig. 4-figure supplement 1).

      Why are the responses to sucrose not dosage-dependent? The responses are clearly not saturated at these (10 mM to 100 mM) concentrations.

      We were also puzzled with the flat dose dependence to sucrose. This result may suggest the existence of another mechanism moderating sucrose responses of sGRNs. This flat curve reappeared with other genotypes with the same concentration range (5-50 mM) in Fig. 4E. However, 1-mM sucrose produced much lower spiking frequencies (Fig. 4E), suggesting that sGRN responses are saturated at 5 mM sucrose with our recording/analysis condition.

      (6) In Figure 4C, instead of showing the average spike rate of the first five seconds and the next 5 seconds, why not show a peristimulus time histogram? It would help the readers tremendously, and it would also show how quickly the spike rate adapts to overexpression and control flies. Also, since taste responses adapt rather quickly, a 500 ms or 1 s bin would be more appropriate than a 5-second bin.

      Taste single sensillum recording starts by contacting stimulants, which bars us from recording pre-stimulus responses of GRNs. Therefore, we showed post-stimulus graphs with 1-sec bins (Fig. 4-figure supplement 1) as we reviewer suggested.

      (7) Lines 215 - 220. The authors state that the presence of sugars in the culture media would expose the GRNs to sugar constantly, without providing much evidence. What is the evidence that the GRNs are being activated constantly in flies raised with culture media containing sugars? The sensilla are not always in contact with the food.

      We agree with reviewer. We replaced “long-term stimulation of sGRNs” with “strong and frequent stimulation of sGRNs for extended period”. The word long-term may be interpreted to be constant.

      (8) Line 223. To show that bGRN spike rates in Ih mutant flies "decreased even more than WT", you need to compare the difference in spike rates between the sorbitol group and the sorbitol + sucrose group, which is not what is currently shown.

      The data were examined by ANOVA and a multiple comparison test (Dunn’s) between all the groups regardless of genotypes and conditions in the panel (all the groups sharing the y axis). Therefore, the differences were statistically examined. However, the cited expression we used read like it was about the slope or extent of the decrease. We intended to indicate the difference in the absolute values of spiking frequencies after overnight sweet exposure between the genotypes, while bGRN activities were statistically indifferent between WT and Ih mutants when they were kept only on sorbitol food. We revised it to “decreased to the level significantly lower than WT”. We also changed the graph style to effectively present the trend of changes in bGRN sensitivity with comparison between genotypes. Again, the groups were statistically examined together regardless of the genotypes and conditions.

      (9) To help readers better understand the proposed mechanisms here, including a schematic figure would be helpful. This should show where Ih is expressed, how Ih in sGRNs impacts the sensillum potential, how elevated sensillum potential increases the electrical driving force for the receptor current, and affects the excitability of the bGRNs in the same sensilla, and how exposure to sugar is proposed to affect ion homeostasis in the sensillum lymph.

      As reviewer suggested, we included two panels to show working model for gustatory homeostasis via SP maintenance by HCN (Fig. 5E,F).

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) The relationship between this paper and the authors' bioRxiv preprint posted last year is not clear. In the introduction they made it seem like this paper is a follow-up that builds on the preprint, but most or all of the experiments in this paper were already performed in the preprint. I guess the authors are planning to divide the original paper into two papers. I would suggest updating the preprint to avoid confusion.

      Thank you for the comment. We updated the preprint to be without a part of Fig.6 and entire Fig.7 along with associated texts. As reviewer pointed out, our eLife paper was spun off from the part of the preprint paper, because we feel that the two stories could confuse readers when presented together.

      (2) Have the authors considered testing responses of water GRNs? They reside in the same sensilla as sugar neurons, so are they also increased affected by Ih mutation or RNAi in sugar neurons? This would strengthen the evidence that the indirect (non-cell autonomous) effects of Ih are due to the sensillum potential and not some specific interaction between sweet and bitter cells.

      As reviewer proposed, we appraised water GRN activity in the L-type bristles of WT, Ihf03355 and a genomic rescue line for Ihf03355. Spiking responses in water GRNs were evoked by hypo-osmolarity of electrolyte (0.1 mM tricholine citrate-TCC). Interestingly, the Ih mutant showed reduced 0.1 mM TCC-provoked spiking frequencies compared to WT. This impairment was rescued by the genomic fragment containing an intact Ih locus (Figure 3-figure supplement 1A).

      Additionally, SPs in L-type bristles were reduced by Ih deficiencies but increased in Gr64af, suggesting that HCN regulates sGRNs in L-type bristles as well (Figure 3-figure supplement 1B). Again, the bristles of animals with both mutations together exhibited SPs similar to those of WT.

      Furthermore, when we conducted cDNA rescue experiments in L bristles, introduction of Ih-RF cDNA in sGRNs restored SPs, while expressing it in bGRNs did not unlike the results from the i- and s-bristles (Fig. 2K,L), likely because L-bristles lack bGRNs. These cDNA rescue and genetic interaction experiments were conducted using flies fed on fresh cornmeal food with strong sweetness, suggesting that the sweetness in the media is the likely key factor producing the genetic interaction and necessitating HCN, consistent with other results in the manuscript. Therefore, SP regulation by HCN is observed in the L-type bristles.

      Minor comments:

      Line 52: typo, "Many of"

      Thank you. Corrected

      Line 95: typo, "sensilla do an sGRN"

      Corrected

      Line 98: typo, "we observed reduced the spiking responses"

      Corrected

      Line 206: typo, "a relatively low sucrose concentrations"

      Corrected

      Line 260: "inverse relationship between the two GRNs in excitability" - I am not exactly sure what data you are referring to.

      Although alleles did not show increased sGRN activities, knockdown of Ih decreased bGRN activity but increased sGRN activity (Fig. 1C,D, Fig.1-figure supplement 2B), while suppression of sGRNs increased bGRN activity (Fig. 3). To clarify this point, we revised the phrase to “the inverse relationship between the two GRNs in excitability observed in Fig. 1C,D, Fig. 1-figure supplement 2B, and Fig. 3”.

      Methods: typo, "twenty of 3-5 days with 10 males and 10 females"

      Corrected to “Twenty flies, aged 3-5 days and consisting of 10 males and 10 females,”

      Methods: typo, "Kim's wipes" should be "Kimwipes"

      Corrected

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) More clarification is necessary on Transepithelial potential (TEP). TEP is typically created by having pumps and tight junctions between the sensillar lymph and the hemolymph.

      We have an introduction to TEP or SP in the context of sensory functions (lines 40-57) with relevant references. The involvement of pumps and tight junction was mentioned in the same paragraph; “Glia-like support cells exhibit close physical association with sensory receptor neurons, and conduct active transcellular ion transport, which is important for the operation of sensory systems” (line 40) and “Tight junctions between support cells separate the externally facing sensillar lymph from the internal body fluid known as hemolymph” (line 53).

      It is not clear how HCN channels in one of the neurons might change the composition of the sensillum lymph. An explanation of their model of how TEP depends on HCN is necessary.

      Although the ionic composition of the sensillum lymph is a contributing factor to the sensillum potential, it is more conceptually relevant to describe our findings with the perspective of membrane potential regulation given the role of HCN in membrane potential stabilization as discussed in our manuscript.

      We speculate that HCN controls the membrane potential at rest and/or in motion to modulate sGRN activity towards saving SP despite the sweetness in the niche. We positioned our results in relation to SP in discussion; “Our results provide multiple lines of evidence that HCN suppresses HCN-expressing GRNs, thereby sustaining the activity of neighboring GRNs within the same sensilla. We propose that this modulation occurs by restricting SP consumption through HCN-dependent neuronal suppression rather than via chemical and electrical synaptic transmission.” (lines 252-255). Moreover, it is unclear whether HCN is localized to the dendrite bathed in the sensillum lymph to influence the ionic composition of the lymph. It would be very interesting to study in future whether the ionic flow through HCN channels itself is critical for the function of HCN in this context, and whether HCN is exclusively present in the dendrite to support the postulation. However, we would like to remind reviewer that Kir2.1 and HCN channels in sGRNs showed similar effects on SP and bGRNs, while they differ in Na+ conductance.

      In the initially submitted manuscript (lines 325-343), we discussed the potential mechanism by which Kir2.1 and HCN channels commonly increase SP in terms of how the membrane potential regulation in the soma can control the SP consumption in the dendrite of sGRNs.

      Another point about the TEP that needs some explanation is that these sensilla are open to the environment as tastants must flow in and are different from mechanical sensilla in that sense.

      This is a very important question regarding the general physiology of the taste sensilla, as the sensillum lymph is in contact with the external environment through the pore of the sensillum. It is indeed interesting to consider how the composition and potential of the lymph are maintained despite the relatively vast volume of food the sensilla encounter during gustation and the continuous evaporation to air between episodes of gustation. However, we believe that this question, while important, is distinct from the primary focus of our manuscript.

      Are the TEP measurements in Figure 2 under control conditions where there are no tastants?

      There is no tastant in the SP-measuring glass electrode other than the electrolyte. We apologize that we did not specify the recording electrode condition. We inserted a clause in the method; “For SP recordings, the recording electrode contained 2 mM TCC as the electrolyte, and…”

      Does the TEP change dynamically as sGRN is activated?

      SP does shift in response to sweets. Please see Fig. 5B. Also, we showed SP changes by mechanical stimuli, which depended on the mechanoreceptor, NompC (Fig. 2D-F). Mechanoreceptor neurons share the sensillum lymph with GRNs.

      (2) More clarification on the potential transduction mechanism and how TEP affects one neuron differentially. Essentially, sGRN perturbation affects sGRN activity and it affects the TEP. More explanation is needed for the potential ionic mechanism of each.

      Our results strongly suggest that HCN lowers the activity of HCN-expressing GRNs, mitigating SP consumption. This modulation is crucial because the SP serves as a driving force for neuronal activation within the sensillum. HCN is particularly necessary in sGRNs because of the flies’ sweet feeding niche, which is expected to result in frequent and strong activation of sGRNs. The SP saved by HCN-dependent delimitation of sGRNs can be used to raise the responsibility of bGRNs.

      (3) The authors refer to their own unreviewed paper (Reference 17). This paper is on a similar topic and there seems to be some overlap. Clarification on this point would be important.

      We revised the biorxiv preprint, so that the preprint version 2 does not contain the parts overlapping with this eLife paper. This eLife paper was originally part of the preprint paper, but it was separated to clarify the messages of the two stories. As we explained in Discussion (lines 276-297), HCN provides resistance to both hyperpolarization and depolarization of the membrane potential. Simply put, one paper focuses on the role of HCN in resisting hyperpolarization, while the other (this paper in eLife) focuses on resisting depolarization.

      (4) Methods are sparse. Many details on the method are necessary. For example, Sensilla recordings are being done by the tip-dip method (I assume). What does "number of experiments" mean in Figure 1? Is it the number of animals or the number of sensilla? How many trials/sensilla?

      We indicated the extracellular recording was performed by the tip-dip method; “In vivo extracellular recordings were performed by the tip-dip method as detailed previously”. We also added a statement on the number of experiments; “The number of experiments indicated in figures are the number of naïve bristles tested. The naïve bristles were from at least three different animals.”

      (5) Figure 1: I understand the author's interpretation. But if one compares WT in Figure 1A to Gr64a-IhRNAi in 1C, we can come to the conclusion that there is no change. In other words, the control in Figure 1C (grey) has a much higher response than WT. Similar conclusions can be made for other experiments. Is the WT response stable enough to make the conclusions made here?

      The genetic background of each genotype may influence GRN activity to some extent. RNAi knockdown experiments are well-known for their hypomorphic nature, and their effects should be evaluated by comparison with their parental controls such as Gal4 and UAS lines. As all reviewers pointed out, we added the results from UAS control. This effort confirms that Gr89a>Ih RNAi is statistically indifferent to UAS control as well as Gr64f-Gal4 control in bGRN spiking evoked by 2-mM caffeine, while Gr64f>Ih RNAi showed reduced bGRN responses to 2 mM caffeine compared to all the controls.

      (6) Figure 3: Why is bGRN spiking not plotted against sensillum potential to observe the dependence more directly?

      This is a very interesting suggestion. We are not, however, equipped to measure spiking and sensillum potential simultaneously. Therefore, they are independent experiments, and we treated them accordingly.

      (7) Figure 4: Why bGRN response is only affected at high caffeine concentrations is not clear.

      We were also surprised by the differences in the dose dependence results of b- and sGRNs, genetically manipulated to mis-express and over-express HCN in Fig. 4A and 4E, respectively. Each gustatory neuron likely has distinct sets of players and parameters that set its own membrane potential and excitability.

      We can think of a possibility that there might be a range of membrane potentials within which HCN does not engage. In bGRNs, the resting membrane potential may lie low within this range, so that some degrees of membrane depolarization by low concentrations of caffeine do not significantly close HCN channels, thus preventing their hyperpolarizing effects. On the other hand, the membrane potential of sGRNs may be high within this range, showing suppressive effects at all tested sucrose concentrations. However, we find this explanation is too speculative to include in the main text, while we stated in the original manuscript, “implying a complex cell-specific regulation of GRN excitability.” (line 210).

      (8) Minor:

      L98 - there is a small typo

      Corrected

      L274: "funny" !?

      “Funny” currents, denoted If, were initially observed by electrophysiologists and later attributed to HCN channels, now indicated by Ih (thus the gene name Ih in Drosophila). These currents were termed "funny" due to their unusual properties compared to other currents. For more detailed information, please refer to the cited references.

      L257: Neuropeptide seemed to be abrupt

      We attempted to discuss possible mechanisms that mediate excitability changes across GRNs beyond the mechanism by SP shifts. Neuropeptides, which are chemical neurotransmitters along with small neurotransmitters, were mentioned following the discussion on synaptic transmission to suggest alternative pathways for excitability regulation. This inclusion is meant to provide a comprehensive overview of potential mechanisms influencing GRN activity.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Congratulations on your fascinating research! The results are certainly of interest to the chemosensory field. However, I suggest using academic editing services to enhance the clarity of your text and ensure that the terminology and jargon align with standard usage in the field. The current choice of words may not be consistent with commonly used terms. As it is now, the writing might not fully showcase the compelling story and the effort behind your study, and is underselling your interesting results. Proper refinement could make sure your valuable findings are appropriately recognized.

      We appreciate your comments and apologize for any difficulties reviewers faced during the review process. We are currently prioritizing the review of scientific content and plan to address language issues in a subsequent revision. It would be very helpful for future revisions if the problematic sentences or expressions could be indicated in detail after this revision. This will allow us to ensure that our terminology and expression align with standard usage in the field, and that our findings are clearly and effectively communicated.

      Minor points:

      (1) Line 110: what is Ih-RF?

      We apologize that we relied on a reference in describing the cDNA. The following clause was inserted with additional reference and the Flybase id: “(Flybase id: FBtr0290109), which previously rescued Ih deficiency in other contexts17,26 ,”  

      (2) Line 158: Gr64af mutant flies still have Gr5a and a residual response to fructose and sucrose (Slone, Amrein 2007).

      We revised the line to “is severely impaired in sucrose and glucose sensing”, since there is a substantial loss of sucrose and glucose sensing in both Gr64af from Kim et al 2018 and DGr64 from Slone et al 2007, when they were examined by the proboscis extension reflex assay. This was also confirmed in the study by Jiao et al 2009. We also deleted “sugar-ageusic” and instead describe the mutant “impaired in sucrose and glucose sensing” in Fig. 3 legend.

      (3) Lines 264-273 seem unnecessary. This paper is not about the function of HCN in mammals, and these discussions seem largely irrelevant.

      We feel that it is important to position our results within a broader context by discussing the potential implications of our findings for sensory systems of other animals. As we stated, HCN channels have been localized in mammalian sensory systems, but their roles are often not well understood. By including this discussion, we aim to highlight the relevance of our findings beyond the model organism used in our study and suggest possible areas for future research in mammalian systems.

    1. Author response:

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      I have two significant concerns that I believe can be resolved on the timescale of review.

      1) The work identifies substantial thinning in one leaflet. Lipids expand as they thin. Given this, are there too few lipids in this leaflet (which would also indicate thinning)? I would expect their deformations depend strongly on the number-balance of lipids in each leaflet. The authors should check if thinning, and the boundary, is sensitive to inter-leaflet-lipid imbalance.

      We thank Reviewer #2 for this insight, as it led us to evaluate the leaflet tensions in our restrained 2L0J simulation. We found there was an imbalance in the leaflet packing, which we addressed with an extensive set of new simulations and new analysis aimed at generating balanced leaflets.

      See Page 6-8, Appendix Section 1, Appendix – figures 1, 2. We discuss these findings in the new Results section “Protein footprint asymmetry can lead to differential leaflet stresses” and accompanying appendix. Many of the bilayer features in the repacked simulations are consistent with our original submission, but not all. For instance, while we continue to see large tilt immediately around the amphipathic helices in the lower leaflet and little in the upper leaflet, tilts in both leaflets decay to similar values at the box edge (Appendix - figure 2). The degree of membrane pinch along the membrane-protein contact boundaries are less sensitive to the leaflet packing, as demonstrated by the surface heights (Appendix - figure 1).

      Determining the proper change in leaflet count is quite difficult. We are actively extending our continuum model to address questions of differential leaflet strain and coupled lipid tilt, which may allow us to estimate changes in leaflet-count, but this is a significant undertaking beyond the scope of this resubmission.

      2) By constraining the pore to have 2-fold symmetry, the authors remove a large entropic penalty disfavoring such a conformation, and thus presumably disfavoring the negative- gaussian-curvature it induces. For example, if the free energy surface for the fluctuations were rather flat, and only 1% of the conformations were consistent with 2-fold symmetry, the coupling to NGC may be reduced by -kT log( 1 % ), neglecting enhancement by coupling to NGC. Therefore, I predict that the coupling to NGC would be reduced further were the constraint removed.

      We agree with the reviewer that if the 2-fold states are highly disfavored for entropic or enthalpic reasons, it would directly reduce the coupling to NGC. However, we don’t know the free energy difference between these states, and it is hard to calculate them from all-atom and beyond our current scope. While our unrestrained simulations are not converged, they demonstrate that there is a wide range of orientations for the amphipathic helices that are energetically accessible (see Figure 2, Appendix Section 1, and Appendix - figure 4). Still, the DEER data from the Howard lab (Kim et al., 2015) would be better described by further symmetry-broken states with greater inter-AH distances, suggesting that such conformations are not well represented in our equilibrium ensemble.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Helsell et al. uses atomistic molecular dynamics simulations to characterize the structural dynamics of the M2 protein together with continuum elastic models to evaluate the energetic cost of the protein-induced bilayer deformations. Using unbiased simulations (without constraints on the protein) they show that the M2 structure is dynamic and that the AH helices are mobile (though they tend to retain their secondary structure), in agreement with experimental observations. Then, using simulations in which the peptide backbone was restrained to the starting structure, they were able to quantitatively characterize the protein- induced bilayer deformations as well as the acyl chain dynamics.

      Both the atomistic simulations and the continuum-based determinations of the bilayer deformation energies are of high quality. The authors are careful to note that their unbiased simulations do not reach equilibrium, and the authors' conclusions are well supported by their results, though some issues need to be clarified.

      1) P. 7: Choice of lipid composition: POPC:POPG:Cholesterol 0.56:0.14:0.3. This lipid composition (or POPC:POPG 0.8:0.2) has been used in a number of experimental studies that the authors use as reference. It differs, however, substantially from the lipid composition of the influenza membrane (Gerl et al., J Cell Biol, 2012; Ivanova et al., ACS Infect Dis, 2015), which is enriched in cholesterol, has a 2:1 ratio of phosphatidylethanolamine to phosphatidylcholine, and almost no PG. The choice of lipid composition is unlikely to impact the authors' major conclusions, but it should be discussed briefly. As noted by Ivanova et al., the lipids of the influenza membrane are enriched in fusogenic lipids. How will that impact the authors results.

      As noted by the Reviewer, the lipid composition we explored was based on DEER studies from Kathleen Howard. While there is a lot of cholesterol in our simulations, it is lower than the lipidomics papers suggest for the viral membrane (Gerl et al., 2012; Ivanova et al., 2015). We hypothesize that further increasing cholesterol would stiffen the membrane even more and cause the energy differences we report here to become even larger – accentuating our finding. We employ 14% POPG and the Simons lab finds about 14% PS. Chemically these headgroups are similar, but the size and spontaneous curvature difference could be a concern. This is the the different intrinsic curvatures of PE versus PC. However, we have not considered spontaneous curvature in our continuum calculations, so we cannot predict how this will influence our results.

      See Appendix - figure 6. We added a new panel to this figure with continuum parameters intended to mimic a high 50 % cholesterol membrane reported for viral coats, and we show that the curvature sensing of symmetry-broken states increases as the cholesterol content increases.

      See Page 25. We added text in the Discussion concerning the difference in lipids found in the virus versus those compositions employed in experiment and here.

      2) The definition of the lipid tilt needs to be revisited. On P. 13 (in the Pdf received for review, the authors do not provide page numbers), the tilt is defined/approximated as "the angle between the presumed membrane normal (aligned with the Z axis of the box) and the vector pointing from each phospholipid's phosphate to the midpoint between the last carbon atoms of the lipid tails." This (equating the normal to the interface with the Z axis of the simulation box) may be an acceptable approximation for the lower leaflet, which is approximately flat, but probably not for the upper leaflet where the interface is curved in the vicinity of the protein. The authors should, at least, discuss the implications of their approximation in terms of their conclusion that there is little lipid tilt in the upper leaflet.

      We agree that our lipid tilt calculations are approximate since we assume the membrane normal points along the z direction. We have now restated this assumption in the Results when we start to discuss tilt. Different models define lipid tilt in different ways, but the work of Deserno defines it with respect to the bilayer mid-plane which is a shared surface for the upper and lower leaflets. Thus, tilt would be moderately impacted in both leaflets. Examining the snapshots at the top of Figure 7, we surmise that the calculated tilts in both leaflets adjacent to the protein would be slightly reduced, leaving the values at the boundary unaffected. Thus, the upper leaflet likely experiences even less tilt than calculated.

      See Page 16. We have added the discussion above to the section on lipid tilt. Also, we have added page numbers to the resubmission.

      3) P. 14, last paragraph, Figure 5 and 6: The snapshots in Figure 5 are too small to see what the authors refer to when they write "tilt their lipid tails to wrap around the helices." The authors should consider citing the work of H W. Huang, e.g., Huang et al. (PRL, 2004), who introduced the notion of curvature stress induced by antimicrobial peptides, a concept similar to what the present authors propose.

      See Page 17. We have now drawn the connection between what our simulations are showing and the earlier work by Huey Huang on antimicrobial peptides.

      See Figure 7. To make the lipid deformations easier to see, we are attaching the full-size versions of each snapshot to the figure as supplemental data.

      4) P. 17-18, Figure 7: The authors introduce the bilayer midplane, which becomes important for the determination of the deformation energy in the (unnumbered) equation on P. 17, but do not specify how it is determined. This is a non-trivial undertaking, but critical for the evaluation of the deformation energy; please add the necessary details.

      See Pages 15 and 20. In the continuum model, we define CM (the compression surface) following the work of May and colleagues (and other groups) as the areal compression weighted mean of the upper and lower surface. In the MD simulation results in Figure 6, we define leaflet thickness as the absolute difference between the interpolated leaflet hydrophobic surface (calculated using the first carbon atoms of each POPC and POPG lipid tail) and the interpolated bilayer midplane surface (calculated as the average of the upper and lower leaflet tail surfaces, each interpolated based on the last carbon atoms of each POPC and POPG lipid tail for each leaflet, respectively). These two leaflet-based definitions are different, and a more sophisticated continuum model of the upper and lower leaflet coupling would require the incorporation of lipid tilt, which we do not currently have.

      5) P. 18-19, Figure 8: The comparison of the MD and continuum membrane deformations is very informative, but the authors should discuss the implications of the increased symmetry further in terms of the estimated deformation energies. (I do not believe the authors really mean that they predicted the energies, they estimated/approximated them.)

      The Reviewer is correct, we are not predicting the energies of the actual MD generated bilayers, but rather we are estimating the energies of these shapes using a continuum-based approximation. The good agreement between the MD generated surfaces and the continuum predicted surfaces suggested that the model is capturing the underlying physics. We argued that the increased symmetry of the continuum surfaces compared to the MD surfaces was due to incomplete sampling in the MD. We were right about that. Please see revised Figure 10 with new data and some longer simulations, where the symmetry in the MD is now apparent and the match between continuum and MD is even better. Frankly, we are very pleased with these new results.

      See Page 18 and Figure 10. We have changed language throughout moving away from “predicting” to “estimating”. The new MD generated data shows much greater symmetry reflected in the starting structures, and better agreement with model predictions.

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      Kim, S. S., Upshur, M. A., Saotome, K., Sahu, I. D., McCarrick, R. M., Feix, J. B., Lorigan, G. A., & Howard, K. P. (2015). Cholesterol-Dependent Conformational Exchange of the C- Terminal Domain of the Influenza A M2 Protein. Biochemistry, 54(49), 7157-7167. https://doi.org/10.1021/acs.biochem.5b01065

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    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Overall, the manuscript is very well written, the approaches used are clever, and the data were thoroughly analyzed. The study conveyed important information for understanding the circuit mechanism that shapes grid cell activity. It is important not only for the field of MEC and grid cells, but also for broader fields of continuous attractor networks and neural circuits.

      We appreciate the positive comments.

      (1) The study largely relies on the fact that ramp-like wide-field optogenetic stimulation and focal optogenetic activation both drove asynchronous action potentials in SCs, and therefore, if a pair of PV+ INs exhibited correlated activity, they should receive common inputs. However, it is unclear what criteria/thresholds were used to determine the level of activity asynchronization, and under these criteria, what percentage of cells actually showed synchronized or less asynchronized activity. A notable percentage of synchronized or less asynchronized SCs could complicate the results, i.e., PV+ INs with correlated activity could receive inputs from different SCs (different inputs), which had synchronized activity. More detailed information/statistics about the asynchronization of SC activity is necessary for interpreting the results.

      The short answer here is that spiking responses from the pairs of SCs that we sampled appear asynchronous. We now show this in the form of cross-correlograms for all recorded pairs of SCs (Figure 2, Figure Supplement 1). The correlograms lack peaks that would indicate synchronous activation. Thus, while our dataset is not large enough to rule out occasional direct synchronisation of SCs, this appears unlikely to account for synchronised input to PV+INs.

      This conclusion is consistent with consideration of mechanisms that could in principle synchronise SCs:

      First, if responses to ramping light inputs was fully deterministic, then this could lead to fixed relative timing of spikes fired by different SCs. This is unlikely given the influence of stochastic channel gating on SC spiking (Dudman and Nolan 2009) and is inconsistent with trial to trial variability in spike timing (Figure 2, Figure Supplement 2).

      Second, as SCs are glutamatergic they could excite one another. However, excitatory connections between stellate cells are rare (Pastoll et al. 2013; Couey et al. 2013; Fuchs et al. 2016) and when detected they have low amplitude (mean < 0.25 mV; (Winterer et al. 2017)). Our finding that spiking by pairs of SCs is not correlated is consistent with this.

      Third, strong interaction between stellate cells mediated by local inhibitory pathways (Pastoll et al. 2013; Couey et al. 2013) could coordinate their activity. The lack of correlation between spiking of pairs of SCs suggests that such coordination is rarely recruited by our ramping protocols. Nevertheless, recruitment of inhibition may happen to some extent as experiments in Figure 4 show that correlated input from SCs to more distant, but not nearby PV+INs, is reduced by blocking inhibitory synapses. Given that we don't find evidence for synchronised spiking of SCs, this additional common input to widely separated PV+INs is instead best explained by recruitment of interneurons that act directly on the target SCs. We have modified Figure 8 to make this clear.

      Thus, for experiments with ramping light stimuli, synchronous activation of SCs is unlikely to explain common input to PV+INs. Input from the same SC best explains correlated responses of nearby PV+IN inhibitory populations, while recruitment of an additional inhibitory pathway may contribute to correlated responses of more distant PV+INs.

      For experiment using focal stimulation, substantial trial-to-trial variation in SC spike timing argues strongly against deterministic coordination. Indirect coordination of presynaptic neurons is also extremely unlikely given that focal activation is sparse and brief, while inputs from many presynaptic SCs are required to drive a postsynaptic interneuron to spike (e.g. (Pastoll et al. 2013; Couey et al. 2013)). Results from these experiments thus corroborate results from experiments using ramping light stimulation.

      In revising the manuscript we have tried to ensure these arguments are clear (e.g. p 5, para 3; p 6, para 2; p 10, para 1).

      (2) The hypothesis about the "direct excitatory-inhibitory" synaptic interactions is made based on the GABAzine experiments in Figure 4. In the Figure 8 diagram, the direct interaction is illustrated between PV+ INs and SCs. However, the evidence supporting this "direct interaction" between these two cell types is missing. Is it possible that pyramidal cells are also involved in this interaction? Some pieces of evidence or discussions are necessary to further support the "direction interaction".

      Indirect connections between stellate cells mediated via fast spiking inhibitory interneurons are well established by previous studies (e.g. (Pastoll et al. 2013; Couey et al. 2013; Fuchs et al. 2016), and so were not addressed here. Previous work also establishes that connections from stellate cells to pyramidal cells are extremely rare (Winterer et al. 2017). Because the Sim1:Cre mouse line is specific to stellate cells and does not drive transgene expression in pyramidal cells (Sürmeli et al. 2015), it's therefore unlikely that pyramidal cells play a role.

      To make these points clearer we have modified the text in the discussion (p 5, para 3; p 10, paras 1 & 2). We have also modified Figure 8 to highlight that the indirect interaction may be best accounted for by inhibitory pathways onto PV+INs rather than via SCs (which our new cross-correlation analyses indicate is unlikely).

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      In this study, Huang et al. employed optogenetic stimulation alongside paired whole-cell recordings in genetically defined neuron populations of the medial entorhinal cortex to examine the spatial distribution of synaptic inputs and the functional-anatomical structure of the MEC. They specifically studied the spatial distribution of synaptic inputs from parvalbumin-expressing interneurons to pairs of excitatory stellate cells. Additionally, they explored the spatial distribution of synaptic inputs to pairs of PV INs. Their results indicate that both pairs of SCs and PV INs generally receive common input when their relative somata are within 200-300 ums of each other. The research is intriguing, with controlled and systematic methodologies. There are interesting takeaways based on the implications of this work to grid cell network organization in MEC.

      We appreciate the positive comments.

      (1) Results indicate that in brain slices, nearby cells typically share a higher degree of common input. However, some proximate cells lack this shared input. The authors interpret these findings as: "Many cells in close proximity don't seem to share common input, as illustrated in Figures 3, 5, and 7. This implies that these cells might belong to separate networks or exist in distinct regions of the connectivity space within the same network.". Every slice orientation could have potentially shared inputs from an orthogonal direction that are unavoidably eliminated. For instance, in a horizontal section, shared inputs to two SCs might be situated either dorsally or ventrally from the horizontal cut, and thus removed during slicing. Given the synaptic connection distributions observed within each intact orientation, and considering these distributions appear symmetrically in both horizontal and sagittal sections, the authors should be equipped to estimate the potential number of inputs absent due to sectioning in the orthogonal direction. How might this estimate influence the findings, especially those indicating that many close neurons don't have shared inputs?

      Given we find high probabilities of correlated inputs to nearby cells in both planes, our conclusion that nearby cells are likely to receive common inputs appears to be independent of the slice plane. For cells further apart, where the degree of correlated input becomes more variable, it is possible that cell pairs that have low input correlations measured in one slice plane would have high input correlations if measured in a different plane. An argument against this is that as the cell pairs are further apart, it is less likely that an orthogonal axon would intersect dendritic trees of both cells. Nevertheless, we can't rule this out given the data here. We have amended the discussion to highlight this possibility (p 10, para 1). We agree it would be interesting to address this point further with quantitative analyses but this will be difficult without detailed reconstructions of the circuit.

      (2) The study examines correlations during various light-intensity phases of the ramp stimuli. One wonders if the spatial distribution of shared (or correlated) versus independent inputs differs when juxtaposing the initial light stimulation phase, which begins to trigger spiking, against subsequent phases. This differentiation might be particularly pertinent to the PV to SC measurements. Here, the initial phase of stimulation, as depicted in Figure 7, reveals a relatively sparse temporal frequency of IPSCs. This might not represent the physiological conditions under which high-firing INs function. While the authors seem to have addressed parts of this concern in their focal stim experiments by examining correlations during both high and low light intensities, they could potentially extract this metric from data acquired in their ramp conditions. This would be especially valuable for PV to SC measurements, given the absence of corresponding focal stimulation experiments.

      We understand the gist of the question here as being can differences in correlation scores between initial vs later phases of responses to ramping light inputs be used to infer spatial organisation? These differences are likely to reflect heterogeneity in the spiking of the input neurons, for example through differences in spike threshold, spike frequency adaptation and saturation of spiking (e.g. Figure 2, Figure Supplement 1A, and also see (Pastoll et al. 2020)). We don't expect these differences to have any spatial organisation along the mediolateral axis, and while spike threshold follows a dorsoventral organisation there is nevertheless substantial local variation between neurons (Pastoll et al. 2020). It's therefore unlikely we can use differences in early versus late correlations to make the inferences proposed by the reviewer.

      With respect to PV to SC measurements, similar heterogeneity is likely. We note that we were unable to carry out focal stimulation experiments for PV to SC connections as PV neurons did not spike in response to focal optogenetic stimulation.

      With respect to physiological conditions, our aim here is simply to assess connectivity in well controlled conditions, e.g. voltage-clamp, minimal spontaneous activity, known neuronal locations, etc. It's not clear that physiological activation patterns would improve on these tests and quite likely data would be noisier and harder to interpret.

      (3) Re results from Figure 2: Please fully describe the model in the methods section. Generally, I like using a modeling approach to explore the impact of convergent synaptic input to PVs from SCs that could effectively validate the experimental approach and enhance the interpretability of the experimental stim/recording outcomes. However, as currently detailed in the manuscript, the model description is inadequate for assessing the robustness of the simulation outcomes. If the IN model is simply integrate-and-fire with minimal biophysical attributes, then the findings in Fig 2F results shown in Fig 2F might be trivial. Conversely, if the model offers a more biophysically accurate representation (e.g., with conductance-based synaptic inputs, synapses appropriately dispersed across the model IN dendritic tree, and standard PV IN voltage-gated membrane conductances), then the model's results could serve as a meaningful method to both validate and interpret the experiments.

      We appreciate the simulation descriptions were insufficient and have modified the manuscript to include additional details and clarification (p 14, paras 1-3).

      We're not sure we follow the logic here with respect to model types. The experiments were carried out in the voltage-clamp recording configuration with the goal of identifying correlated inputs independently from how they are integrated by the postsynaptic neuron. Given that membrane potential doesn't change (and so the CdVm/dt term of the membrane equation = 0), integrate and fire and point conductance-based models both simplify down to summing of input currents. We achieve this by convolving spike times with experimentally measured synaptic current waveforms. An assumption of our approach is that we achieve a reasonable space clamp. We believe this is justified given that stellate cells and PV interneurons are reasonably electrotonically compact, and that our analysis relies on consistent correlations rather than absolute amplitudes or time constants of the postsynaptic response and so should tolerate moderate space clamp errors.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      This paper presents convincing data from technically demanding dual whole-cell patch recordings of stellate cells in medial entorhinal cortex slice preparations during optogenetic stimulation of PV+ interneurons. The authors show that the patterns of postsynaptic activation are consistent with dual recorded cells close to each other receiving shared inhibitory input and sending excitatory connections back to the same PV neurons, supporting a circuitry in which clusters of stellate cells and PV+IN interact with each other with much weaker interactions between clusters. These data are important to our understanding of the dynamics of functional cell responses in the entorhinal cortex. The experiments and analysis are quite complex and would benefit from some revisions to enhance clarity.

      These are technically demanding experiments, but the authors show quite convincing differences in the correlated response of cell pairs that are close to each other in contrast to an absence of correlation in other cell pairs at a range of relative distances. This supports their main point of demonstrating anatomical clusters of cells receiving shared inhibitory input.

      We appreciate the positive comments.

      The overall technique is complex and the presentation could be more clear about the techniques and analysis. In addition, due to this being a slice preparation they cannot directly relate the inhibitory interactions to the functional properties of grid cells which was possible in the 2-photon in vivo imaging experiment by Heys and Dombeck, 2014.

      We have modified the manuscript to try to improve the presentation (specific changes are detailed below). We agree that an important future challenge is to relate our findings to in vivo observations (p 11, para 2).

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Major points

      (1) The study largely relies on the fact that ramp-like wide-field optogenetic stimulation and focal optogenetic activation both drove asynchronous action potentials in SCs, and therefore, if a pair of PV+ INs exhibited correlated activity, they should receive common inputs. In Figure 2 and its supplementary figures, the authors also showed examples of asynchronized activity. However, it is unclear to me what criteria/thresholds were used to determine the level of activity asynchronization, and under these criteria, what percentage of cells actually showed synchronized or less asynchronized activity. A notable percentage of synchronized or less asynchronized SCs could complicate the results, i.e., PV+ INs with correlated activity could receive inputs from different SCs (different inputs), which had synchronized activity. Related to this concern, it would also be important to simulate what level of activity asynchronization in SCs could still lead to correlated PV+ IN activity above shuffle, and among the recorded SCs, what percentage of cells belong to this synchronized/less asynchronized category.

      We address this point in our response to the public review. In brief, we have added additional cross-correllograms showing that ramp activation of SC pairs does not cause detectable synchronous activation. We also clarify that sensitivity of correlations of some widely separated pairs to GABA-blockers is suggestive of SCs activating common inhibitory inputs to cell pairs.

      (2) The above concern is more relevant to the focal stimulation experiments, in which the authors tried to claim that a pair of PV+ INs with correlated activity could receive inputs from the same SCs neurons. The authors also showed that the stimulation patterns leading to the activation of PV+ INs were more similar if PV+ INs had correlated activity (Figure 5D). However, if nearby SCs were more synchronized than distal SCs within this stimulation scale, even though a pair of PV+ INs showed correlated activity, they could still receive inputs from different but nearby SCs. In this case, it would be helpful to quantify the relationship between the level of activity synchronization of SCs and their distances. In Figure 5 Supplementary Figure 1, the data were only provided for 8 cells. If feasible, collecting data from more cells would be needed for the proposed analysis.

      We explain in our responses to point 1 above and in the public review that direct synchronisation of SCs is unlikely. This is particularly unlikely for focal stimulation experiments as the timing of responses of individual SCs is extremely variable between trials. Thus, even if there were strong synaptic connections between SCs, which the evidence suggests there is not (Pastoll et al. 2013; Couey et al. 2013; Fuchs et al. 2016), then this would be unlikely to result in reliably timed coordinated firing.

      (3) It is unclear what the definition of "common inputs" is. Do they refer to inputs from the same group of cells? If different groups of cells provide synchronized inputs, will the inputs be considered "common inputs" or "different inputs"?

      We used "common" in an attempt to be consistent with classic work by Yoshimura et al. and in an attempt to be succinct. Thus, by common input we are referring to cell pairs for which a proportion of their input is from the same presynaptic neuron(s), as opposed to cell pairs for which their input is from different neurons and therefore have no common input. We have attempted to make sure this is clear in the revised manuscript (e.g description of simulations on p 4, para 2).

      (4) In the introduction and abstract, it was mentioned that "dense, but specific, direct excitatory-inhibitory synaptic interactions may operate at the scale of grid cell clusters". It is unclear to me how "dense" was demonstrated in the data. Can the authors clarify?

      Thanks for flagging this, we were insufficiently clear. We have revised the text to refer to cell pairs for which a proportion of their input is from the same presynaptic neurons (e.g. p 3, para 1), and separately about indirect coordination, by which we mean inputs to cell pairs that appear correlated because of coordination between upstream neurons.

      (5) The hypothesis about the "direct excitatory-inhibitory" synaptic interactions is made based on the GABAzine experiments in Figure 4. In the Figure 8 diagram, the direct interaction is illustrated between PV+ INs and SCs. Is there any evidence supporting this "direct interaction"?

      The direct interaction from SCs to PV+INs and from PV+INs to SCs were previously demonstrated by experiments with recordings from pairs of neurons (e.g. (Pastoll et al. 2013; Couey et al. 2013; Fuchs et al. 2016; Winterer et al. 2017). Our results in Figures 3-5, which show that exciting SCs by light activation of ChR2 leads to excitation of PV+INs, and in Figure 7, which show that light activation of PV+INs expressing ChR2 leads to inhibition of SCs, are consistent with these previous conclusions. We have modified the manuscript to make sure this is clear (p 2, para 3).

      Is it possible that pyramidal cells are also involved in this interaction? If this is unlikely, the author may provide some pieces of evidence (e.g., timing of responses after optogenetic stimulation) or some discussions.

      This is unlikely given that previous studies indicate that connections from stellate to pyramidal cells are weak or absent (Winterer et al. 2017). We now clarify this in the Discussion (p 10, para 1).

      Minor points (1) Page 4: the last paragraph: the author claimed that CCpeakmean was reduced and CClagvar increased with cell separation. Although the trends are visible in the figures, the author may provide appropriate statistics to support this statement, such as a correlation between cell separation and CCpeakmean CClagvar./

      We have inserted summaries of linear model fits into the legends for Figure 3E-F, Figure 5F-H and Figure 7D.

      (2)  If I understood correctly, in the second last paragraph on page 6, "pairs of SCs" should be changed to "pairs of PV+ INs".

      Thanks. Corrected.

      (3)  Page 9: the 7th line to the end: where is Figure S4?

      Corrected to 'Figure 3, Figure Supplement 2'.

      (4)  Page 27: at the end of figure caption B: two ".

      Corrected.

      (5)  Figures 3A and B: what are the red vertical rectangles?

      These are the regions shown on an expanded time base in C and D. This is now clarified in the legend.

      (6)  Page 28 Figure caption of D and E: (C) and (D) should be (D) and (E).

      Corrected.

      (7)  The first sentence of the third paragraph in INTRODUCTION: 'later' should be 'layer'.

      Corrected.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      - Some related work has been done by Beed et al. 2013 to map the spatial distribution of inputs to neurons in MEC. Certainly, there are differences in the approaches and the key questions, but the contribution of this study would benefit from a more detailed comparison of the results from Beed vs the current study and should be included in the discussion.

      It's hard to include a detailed comparison of results, at least without losing focus, as the two studies address different questions with different approaches. We already noted that 'Local optical activation of unidentified neurons has also been used to infer connectivity principles but with a focus on responses of single postsynaptic neurons (Beed et al., 2013, 2010)'. In addition, we now note that 'Our focal optogenetic stimulation approach also offers insight into the spatial organization of presynaptic neuronal populations, with the advantage, compared to focal glutamate uncaging previously used to investigate connectivity in the MEC (Beed et al., 2013, 2010), that the identity of the presynaptic cell population is genetically defined'.

      - There are a few places where the language is ambiguous or needs a more detailed description for clarity. • 3rd paragraph under "Focal activation of SCs generates common input to nearby PV+Ins". The correlation probability description in this paragraph and a similar sentence in the methods are very hard to understand. I had to look up the analysis in Yoshimura et al. 2005 to understand what was done here. It's a nice analysis, but the manuscript could benefit from a more detailed description of this measure in the methods.

      We agree, it is a somewhat complex metric and is challenging to explain. In the interests of keeping the main text succinct, we have left the bare bones explanation as it was in the Results, but have expanded the explanation in the Methods. We hope this is now clear.

      - " Alternatively, if there is no clear spatial organization of SC to PV+INs connections, then the similarity between stimulus locations for pairs of SCs should have a random distribution." This sentence is hard to understand. I think the use of the phrase "similarity of stimulus location" is a strange phrasing and is driving the confusion in this sentence.

      We have replaced this with 'correspondence between active stimulus locations'.

      - In the discussion under "Spatial extent and functional organization of L2 circuits" there is a grammatical mistake (seems to be 2x phrasing of "leads to common synaptic input").

      Corrected.

      - Citation in the introduction/discussion. Introduction: in addition to Gu et al. 2018, Heys et al 2014 also showed there are non-random correlations among putative grid cells as a function of their somatic distance. In the discussion section, in addition to Gu et al. 2018, Heys et al. 2014 showed there is anatomical clustering of grid cells in MEC. This earlier work investigating functional correlations among neurons in the superficial aspect of MEC in vivo should be cited and is particularly relevant in these two sections of the manuscript.

      Thanks, we apologise for the oversight. We're well aware of this important study and have now cited it.

      -Typo - Paragraph 3 of the intro; "later" should be layer.

      Corrected.

      -Figure 5 (D-E) there is a typo high correlation probability is D and low correlation is E (text says C/D).

      Corrected.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The paper is missing the bibliography section. This makes the review somewhat difficult as some cited papers are not immediately familiar based on the citation.

      Thanks and our apologises for making extra work by omitting this. It is now included.

      Page 2 - "cell clusters" - they should also cite the paper by Heys and Dombeck, 2014 that shows a spatial scale of inhibitory interactions computed based on correlations of grid cells recorded using 2-photon calcium imaging.

      Added (see above).

      Page 2 - "later 2 of the MEC" - layer.

      Corrected.

      Page 2 - "synaptic interactions" - again they should mention the work by Heys and Dombeck, 2014 that indirectly measured the spatial scale of inhibition.

      Now cited in this paragraph.

      Page 4 "we simulated responses" and Figure 2E - in each simulation - did they fit the magnitude and time constant of the simulated EPSCs to individual EPSCs in the data? Or did they randomly vary these to find the best fit?

      The parameters for the simulations are given in the Methods and were chosen to correspond to the experimental values. We have rewritten this section to make the simulation methods clearer. Simulations using different time constants within a physiological range support similar conclusions.

      Page 4 - "we identified 35/71" - Are these the cells that appear in yellow as correlated in Figures 3E-F? If so, the text should indicate that these cells are shown in yellow.

      We have added this and have also updated the legends for additional clarification.

      Figure 2, Figure Supplement 1 - B,C - the following phrase is not clear: "when the 4 / 8 of each neurons inputs from SCs also project to the other neuron (B)," Should the "the" be removed? Also, by 4/8 do they mean 50%, or do they mean 4 to 8?

      Thanks, we've reworded to improve the clarity.

      E - "receiving presynaptic inputs consisted of 4 overlapping SCs" - should it say "consisting"?

      Corrected.

      Figure 3, Figure Supplement 1 part E - "the same data as (C )" - should this be the same data as (D)?? I do not see how doing clustering on the shuffled data in (C ) would give two groups, but it makes sense if it is from (D).

      That's right, now corrected.

      Page 5 - "used action potentials" - this is confusing. Is the word "used" supposed to be there?

      Corrected.

      Page 5 - "widefield activation experiments" - they should cite the experiments that they are referring to here.

      Added.

      Page 5 - "effect of blocking" - "Figure 4" - I find it very odd that the agent GABAzine in Figure 4 is not explicitly mentioned in the main text (though it is mentioned in the methods). The main text should indicate that blocking was performed using GABAzine.

      Added.

      Page and page 14 and Figure 5 - "shifted" - do they mean shuffled?

      We do. The classic papers by Yoshimura et al. used shifted so we keep this here so it's clear we've used their approach. We've added additional explanation to try to make sure the meaning is clear.

      Figure 5 A, B, D, and E would benefit from a more detailed description. They should state whether the labels "1a" and "1b" and "2a" and "2b" refer to different recorded neurons in each pair. They should indicate that 2a and 2b are a different pair? Are the x, y axes of the images corresponding to anatomical position? Does "B" indicate the location of recordings shown in Figure 5B? The authors probably think this is all obvious, but it is not immediately obvious to the reader.

      We have added additional clarification.

      Page 8 - "Beed et al." - These papers by Beed ought to be cited in the introduction as well as they are highly relevant.

      We now cite Beed et al. 2013 in the Introduction when we discuss local inhibitory input to SCs. While the Beed et al. 2010 paper is an important contribution to understanding about pathways from deep to superficial layers, the introduction focuses on communication between identified pre- and postsynaptic populations within layer 2 and therefore we haven't found a way to cite it without losing focus. We do cite this paper multiple times elsewhere.

      Page 10 - "Excitatory-inhibitory interactions" - this summary of attractor models ought to cite the paper by Burak and Fiete as well.

      The discussion focuses on models with excitatory-inhibitory connectivity and cites an important paper from the Fiete group. The model by Burak and Fiete, while also important, is purely inhibitory and so is not well constrained by the known circuitry, and therefore could not be correctly cited here.

      Page 10 - "be consistent with models…or that focus on pyramidal neurons have also been proposed" - this seems ungrammatical as if two different sentences were merged.

      Corrected.

      References

      Couey, Jonathan J, Aree Witoelar, Sheng-Jia Zhang, Kang Zheng, Jing Ye, Benjamin Dunn, Rafal Czajkowski, et al. 2013. “Recurrent Inhibitory Circuitry as a Mechanism for Grid Formation.” Nat. Neurosci. 16 (3): 318–24. https://doi.org/10.1038/nn.3310.

      Dudman, Joshua T, and Matthew F Nolan. 2009. “Stochastically Gating Ion Channels Enable Patterned Spike Firing through Activity-Dependent Modulation of Spike Probability.” Plos Comput. Biol. 5 (2): e1000290. https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pcbi.1000290.

      Fuchs, Elke C, Angela Neitz, Roberta Pinna, Sarah Melzer, Antonio Caputi, and Hannah Monyer. 2016. “Local and Distant Input Controlling Excitation in Layer II of the Medial Entorhinal Cortex.” Neuron 89 (1): 194–208. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.neuron.2015.11.029.

      Pastoll, Hugh, Derek L Garden, Ioannis Papastathopoulos, Gülşen Sürmeli, and Matthew F Nolan. 2020. “Inter- and Intra-Animal Variation in the Integrative Properties of Stellate Cells in the Medial Entorhinal Cortex.” Elife 9 (February). https://doi.org/10.7554/eLife.52258.

      Pastoll, Hugh, Lukas Solanka, Mark C W van Rossum, and Matthew F Nolan. 2013. “Feedback Inhibition Enables Theta-Nested Gamma Oscillations and Grid Firing Fields.” Neuron 77 (1): 141–54. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.neuron.2012.11.032.

      Sürmeli, Gülşen, Daniel Cosmin Marcu, Christina McClure, Derek L F Garden, Hugh Pastoll, and Matthew F Nolan. 2015. “Molecularly Defined Circuitry Reveals Input-Output Segregation in Deep Layers of the Medial Entorhinal Cortex.” Neuron 88 (5): 1040–53. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.neuron.2015.10.041.

      Winterer, Jochen, Nikolaus Maier, Christian Wozny, Prateep Beed, Jörg Breustedt, Roberta Evangelista, Yangfan Peng, Tiziano D’Albis, Richard Kempter, and Dietmar Schmitz. 2017. “Excitatory Microcircuits within Superficial Layers of the Medial Entorhinal Cortex.” Cell Rep. 19 (6): 1110–16. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.celrep.2017.04.041.

    1. Замечание.Чтобы найти матрицуL, необязательно перемножать все матрицыEj. Еслиаккуратно проводить элементарные преобразования строк, то записывая множители,соответствующие преобразованиям2-го типа, на главной диагонали, а множители,соответствующие преобразованиям3-го типа, под главной диагональю, можно легкосоставить матрицуL(см. элементы, выделенные цветом).Многие компьютерные алгоритмы для решения линейных систем используют элементарныепреобразования строк1-го типа (перемены строк местами). В этом случае существование LU-разложения не гарантировано. Эта проблема решается тем, что перестановки строк делаютсядопоиска LU-разложения.Иными словами, сначала составляем матрицу необходимых перестановокPи проводим этиперестановки с помощью эквивалентного вычисленияPA. LU-разложение мы находим ужедля новой матрицы:PA=LU.(1)МатрицаPявляется произведением матриц элементарных преобразований, поэтому являетсяобратимой. Системы уравненийAx=bиPAx=Pbимеют одни и те же решения. Последняясистема может быть решена с помощью LU-разложения.Тождество (1) ещё иногда записывают в видеA=P−1LU,а соответствующее разложениематрицыAназывают PLU-разложением

      Я ни слова не понял уже тут

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment 

      The authors provide solid data on a functional investigation of potential nucleoid-associated proteins and the modulation of chromosomal conformation in a model cyanobacterium. While the experiments presented are convincing, the manuscript could benefit from restructuring towards the precise findings; alternatively, additional data buttressing the claims made would significantly enhance the study. These valuable findings will be of interest to the chromosome and microbiology fields.

      We appreciate editors for taking time for assessment and reviewers for giving critical suggestions. Both reviewers were concerned about our interpretation of 3C data, and Reviewer #2 suggested the biochemistry of cyAbrB2 to reinforce our claim. We agree with the concern and suggest editors add a sentence “How cyAbrB2 affects chromosome structure is still elusive from this study, and the biochemical assays are needed in the future experiment.” to the eLife assessment.

      The major revision points are the following;

      Reconstruction of Figures

      Previous Figure 5E has been omitted

      Additional 3C data on the nifJ region

      Rephrasing the conclusion of 3C data

      Additional discussion on cyAbrB2 and NAPs

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review): 

      Strength: 

      At first glance, I had a very positive impression of the overall manuscript. The experiments were well done, the data presentation looks very structured, and the text reads well in principle.

      Weakness: 

      Having a closer look, the red line of the manuscript is somewhat blurry. Reading the abstract, the introduction, and parts of the discussion, it is not really clear what the authors exactly aim to target. Is it the regulation of fermentation in cyanobacteria because it is under-investigated? Is it to bring light to the transcriptional regulation of hydrogenase genes? The regulation by SigE? Or is it to get insight into the real function of cyAbrB2 in cyanobacteria? All of this would be good of course. But it appears that the authors try to integrate all these aspects, which in the end is a little bit counterintuitive and in some places even confusing. From my point of view, the major story is a functional investigation of the presumable transcriptional regulator cyAbrB2, which turned out to be a potential NAP. To demonstrate/prove this, the hox genes have been chosen as an example due to the fact that a regulatory role of cyAbrB2 has already been described. In my eyes, it would be good to restructure or streamline the introduction according to this major outcome. 

      As you pointed out, the major focus of this study is cyAbrB2 as a potential NAPs. To focus on NAPs, we simplified the first paragraph of the discussion (ll.246-263) and added the section comparing cyAbrB2 with other known NAPs (11.269-299). To emphasize the description of cyAbrB2, we also rearranged the figures and divided the analysis on cyAbrB2 ChIP into two figures. We reduced the first paragraph of the introduction but mostly preserved the composition of the introduction to keep the general to specific pattern, even though the manuscript is blurry.

      Points to consider: 

      The authors suggest that the microoxic condition is the reason for the downregulation of e.g. photosynthesis (l.112-114). But of course, they also switched off the light to achieve a microoxic environment, which presumably is the trigger signal for photosynthesis-related genes. I suggest avoiding making causal conclusions exclusively related to oxygen and recommend rephrasing (for example, "were downregulated under the conditions applied").

      We agree with this point. We rephrased l.114 to “by the transition to dark microoxic conditions from light aerobic conditions” (ll.108-109).

      The authors hypothesized that cyAbrB2 modulates chromosomal conformation and conducted a 3C analysis. But if I read the data in Figure 5B & C correctly, there is a lot of interaction in a range of 1650 and 1700 kb, not only at marked positions c and j. Positions c and j have been picked because it appears that cyAbrB2 deletion impacts this particular interaction. But is it really significant? In the case of position j the variation between the replicates seems quite high, in the case of position c the mean difference is not that high. Moreover, does all this correlate with cyAbrB2 binding, i.e. with positions of gray bars in panel A? If this was the case, the data obtained for the cyabrB2 mutant should look totally different but they are quite similar to WT. That's why the sentence "By contrast, the interaction frequency in Δcyabrb2 mutant were low and unchanged in the aerobic and microoxic conditions" does not fit to the data shown. But I have to mention that I am not an expert in these kinds of assays. Nevertheless, if there is a biological function that shall be revealed by an experiment, the data must be crystal clear on that. At least the descriptions of the 3C data and the corresponding conclusions need to be improved. For me, it is hard to follow the authors' thoughts in this context. 

      According to your suggestion, we again have carefully observed the 3C data. Furthermore, we conducted an additional 3C experiment on nifJ region (Figures 7F-J). Then we admit we had overinterpreted the 3C data. Therefore, we rewrote the result and discussion of the 3C assay in line with the data (ll.220-245) and removed the previous Figure 5E. Following are individual responses.

      Positions c and j have been picked because it appears that cyAbrB2 deletion impacts this particular interaction. But is it really significant?

      We could not find statistically significant differences at locus c and j. Therefore, we added this in the result section “Note that the interaction scores exhibit considerable variability and we could not detect statistical significance at those loci.” (ll.231-232)

      does all this correlate with cyAbrB2 binding, i.e. with positions of gray bars in panel A?

      As you are concerned, interaction frequency and cyAbrB2 binding do not correlate. Therefore, we withdraw the previous claim and stated as follows; “Moreover, our 3C data did not support bridging at least in hox region and nifJ region, as the high interaction locus and cyAbrB2 binding region did not seem to correlate (Figure 7).” (ll.280-282)

      If this was the case, the data obtained for the cyabrB2 mutant should look totally different but they are quite similar to WT.

      We rewrote it as follows; “Then we compared the chromatin conformation of wildtype and cyabrb2∆. Although overall shapes of graphs did not differ, some differences were observed in wildtype and cyabrb2∆ (Figures 7B and 7G); interaction of locus (c) with hox region were slightly lower in cyabrb2∆ and interaction of loci (f’) and (g’) with nifJ region were different in wildtype and cyabrb2∆. Note that the interaction scores exhibit considerable variability and we could not detect statistical significance at those loci.” (ll.228-232)

      That's why the sentence "By contrast, the interaction frequency in Δcyabrb2 mutant were low and unchanged in the aerobic and microoxic conditions" does not fit to the data shown.

      We rewrote the sentence as follow; “While the interaction scores exhibit considerable variability, the individual data over time demonstrate declining trends of the wildtype at locus (c) and (j) (Figure S8). In ∆cyabrb2, by contrast, the interaction frequency of loci (c) and (j) was unchanged in the aerobic and microoxic conditions (Figure 7E). The interaction frequency of locus (c) in ∆cyabrb2 was as low as that in the microoxic condition of wildtype, while that of locus (j) in ∆cyabrb2 was as high as that in the aerobic condition of wildtype (Figures 7B and 7C).” (ll.238-243)

      The figures are nicely prepared, albeit quite complex and in some cases not really supportive of the understanding of the results description. Moreover, they show a rather loose organization that sometimes does not fit the red line of the results section. For example, Figure 1D is not mentioned in the paragraph that refers to several other panels of the same figure (see lines110-128). Panel 1D is mentioned later in the discussion. Does 1D really fit into Figure 1 then? Are all the panels indeed required to be shown in the main document? As some elements are only briefly mentioned, the authors might also consider moving some into the supplement (e.g. left part of Figure 1C, Figure 2A, Figure 3B ...) or at least try to distribute some panels into more figures. This would reduce complexity and increase comprehensibility for future readers. Also, Figure 3 is a way too complex. Panel G could be an alone-standing figure. The latter would also allow for an increase in font sizes or to show ChIP data of both conditions (L+O2 and D-O2) separately. Moreover, a figure legend typically introduces the content as a whole by one phrase but here only the different panels are described, which fits to the impression that all the different panels are not well connected. Of course, it is the decision of the authors what to present and how but may they consider restructuring and simplifying.

      According to the advice, we have rearranged the Figure composition.

      The left side of Figure 1C has been moved to supplement. Instead, representative expression fold changes of “Transient”, “Plateau”, “Continuous”, and “Late” genes are shown for comprehensibility. We left Figure 1D in Figure 1, as this diagram shows our motive to focus on hox and nifJ. We moved Figure 2A to supplement. We did not move Fig3B, as this figure shows the distribution of cyAbrB2 (“long tract of AT-rich DNA”) comprehensively and simply. We agree that Figure 3 was too complex. Therefore, we moved Figures 3F and 3G to a new independent figure (Figure 4). In Figure 4C (former 3G), we show the ChIP data of the L+O2 condition only, and the change of ChIP data under the D-O2 condition is shown in Figure 5. The schematic image showing cyanobacterial chromosome and NAPs (previous Figure 5E) was omitted because it was overinterpreting.

      The authors assume a physiological significance of transient upregulation of e.g. hox genes under microoxic conditions. But does the hydrogenase indeed produce hydrogen under the conditions investigated and is this even required? Moreover, the authors use the term "fermentative gene". But is hydrogen indeed a fermentation product, i.e. are protons the terminal electron acceptor to achieve catabolic electron balance? Then huge amounts of hydrogen should be released. Comment should be made on this.

      This is a very important point; Yes, hydrogenase indeed produces hydrogen under the conditions we investigated, and proton accepts a majority of reducing power under the dark microoxic condition. We wrote in the introduction section as follows; “Hydrogen is generated in quantities comparable to lactate and dicarboxylic acids as the result of electron acceptance in the dark microoxic condition (Akiyama and Osanai 2023; Iijima et al. 2016)” (ll.54-55). The detailed explanation is below, although omitted from the manuscript.

      A recent study (Akiyama and Oasanai 2023) quantified the consumed glycogen and secreted fermentative products (hydrogen, lactate, dicarboxylic acid, and acetate) in the Synechocystis under the dark microoxic condition, the same conditions as we investigated. The system of the study consists of a 10 mL liquid layer and a 10 mL gas layer, cultivated for 3 days under dark microoxic conditions. Then the amounts of lactic acid, dicarboxylic acid, and hydrogen were approximately 2 µmol, 3.5 µmol, and 11µmol (assuming the gas layer was at 1 atm and ignoring aqueous population), respectively. On the other hand, glycogen equivalent to 15µmol of glucose was consumed in the system. This estimate supports hydrogen accounts for a substantial portion of fermentative products during dark microoxic conditions.

      The necessity of hydrogen production under dark microoxic conditions was demonstrated in (Gutekunst et al. 2014). They show hydrogenase activity is required for the mixotrophic growth in the light-dark and microoxic cycle with arginine. The necessity remains unclear in our conditions because we only performed continuous dark microoxic conditions without glucose.

      The authors also mention a reverse TCA cycle. But is its existence an assumption or indeed active in cyanobacteria, i.e. is it experimentally proven? The authors are a little bit vague in this regard (see lines 241-246).

      We misused the Terminology. We mean to mention the “reductive branch of TCA”. Cyanobacteria conduct the branched TCA cycle under microoxic conditions. One of the branches is the reductive branch, which reduces oxaloacetate to produce malate. We corrected “reverse TCA cycle” to “reductive branch of TCA”. (Figure 1D and ll.260-262)

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review): 

      This work probes the control of the hox operon in the cyanobacterium Synechocystis, where this operon directs the synthesis of a bidirectional hydrogenase that functions to produce hydrogen. In assessing the control of the hox system, the authors focused on the relative contributions of cyAbrB2, alongside SigE (and to a lesser extent, SigA and cyAbrB1) under both aerobic and microoxic conditions. In mapping the binding sites of these different proteins, they discovered that cyAbrB2 bound many sites throughout the chromosome repressed many of its target genes, and preferentially bound regions that were (relatively) rich in AT-residues. These characteristics led the authors to consider that cyAbrB2 may function as a nucleoid-associated protein (NAP) in Synechocystis, given its functional similarities with other NAPs like H-NS. They assessed the local chromosome conformation in both wild-type and cyabrB2 mutant strains at multiple sites within a 40 kb window on either side of the hox locus, using a region within the hox operon as bait. They concluded that cyAbrB2 functions as a nucleoid-associated protein that influences the activity of SigE through its modulation of chromosome architecture.

      The authors approached their experiments carefully, and the data were generally very clearly presented and described.

      Based on the data presented, the authors make a strong case for cyAbrB2 as a nucleoid-associated protein, given the multiple ways in which it seems to function similarly to the well-studied Escherichia coli H-NS protein. It would be helpful to provide some additional commentary within the discussion around the similarities and differences of cyAbrB2 to other nucleoid-associated proteins, and possible mechanisms of cyAbrB2 control (post-translational modification; protein-protein interactions; etc.). The manuscript would also be strengthened with the inclusion of biochemical experiments probing the binding of cyAbrB2, particularly focusing on its oligomerization and DNA polymerization/bridging potential.

      We agree with the comment that the biochemical experiments will deepen our insights into the cyAbrB2 and chromatin conformation. As the reviewer pointed out, the biochemical assay will provide valuable information on mechanisms of cyAbrB2 control, such as post-transcriptional modification, cooperation with cyAbrB1, oligomerization, and the structure of cyAbrB2-bound DNA. However, we think those potential findings are worth of new independent research paper, rather than a part of this paper. Therefore, we added a discussion mentioning biochemistry as the future work (ll.275-290; the section of “The biochemistry of cyAbrB2 will shed light on the regulation of chromatin conformation in the future”).

      Previous work had revealed a role for SigE in the control of hox cluster expression, which nicely justified its inclusion (and focus) in this study. However, the results of the SigA studies here suggested that SigA both strongly associated with the hox promoter, and its binding sites were shared more frequently than SigE with cyAbrB2. The focus on cyAbrB2 is also well-justified, given previous reports of its control of hox expression; however, it shares binding sites with an essential homologue cyAbrB1. Interestingly, while the B1 protein appears to bind similar sites, instead of repressing hox expression, it is known as an activator of this operon. It seems important to consider how cyAbrB1 activity might influence the results described here.

      We infer that the minor side of the bimodal SigE peak is the genuine population that contributes to hox transcription, as hox genes are expressed in a SigE-dependent manner (Figure S2). We considered the strong SigA peak upstream of the hox operon binds the promoter of TU1715, the opposite direction of the hox operon. We added a description of the single SigA peak and bimodal SigE peak near the TSS of the hox operon as follows;

      “A bimodal peak of SigE was observed at the TSS of the hox operon in a microoxic-specific manner (Figure 6C bottom panel). The downstream side of the bimodal SigE peak coincides with SigA peak and the TSS of TU1715. Another side of the bimodal peak lacked SigA binding and was located at the TSS of the hox operon (marked with an arrow in Figure 6C), although the peak caller failed to recognize it as a peak.” (ll.206-209)

      The point that cyAbrB1 binds similar sites as cyAbrB2, despite regulating hox expression in the opposite direction, is very interesting. Therefore, we referred to the transcriptome data of the cyAbrB1 knockdown strain and compared the impact of cyAbrB1 knockdown and cyAbrB2 deletion. We described in result and discussion as follows;

      “we referred to the recent study performing transcriptome of cyAbrB1 knockdown strain, whose cyAbrB1 protein amount drops by half (Hishida et al. 2024). Among 24 genes induced by cyAbrB1 knockdown, 12 genes are differentially downregulated genes in cyabrb2∆ in our study (Figure S5D).” (ll.162-165)

      “CyAbrB1, the homolog of cyAbrB2, may cooperatively work, as cyAbrB1 directly interacts with cyAbrB2 (Yamauchi et al. 2011), their distribution is similar, and they partially share their target genes for suppression (Figures 3A S5C and S5D). The possibility of cooperation would be examined by the electrophoretic mobility shift assay of cyAbrB1 and cyAbrB2 as a complex. Despite their similar repressive function, cyAbrB1 and cyAbrB2 regulate hox expression in the opposite directions, and their mechanism remains elusive.” (ll.292-296)

      Hox operon differs from this general tendency. To see if cyAbrB1 behaves differently from cyAbrB2 in the hox operon, we did an additional ChIP-qPCR experiment on cyAbrB1 in the aerobic condition and the dark microoxic condition (Figure 5C). However, we could not find the difference.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      Figure 1B: I recommend changing the header in the grey bar to terms like "upregulated" and "downregulated", which are also used in the legend description. Upregulation of genes can also be a result of de-repression, which is why the term "activated" is somewhat misleading.

      Corrected.

      Lines 114-116: It is unclear what the authors exactly mean here. Please clarify. 

      We rephrase the sentence “The enrichment in the butanoate metabolism pathway indicates the upregulation of genes involved in carbohydrate metabolism. We further classified genes according to their expression dynamics.” (ll.110-111)

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      Major/experimental comments: 

      (1) For the chromosome conformation capture experiments, it is indicated that these were conducted at aerobic (1hr) and microoxic (4 hr) conditions. But the data presented in Figure 1 suggest that 1 hr corresponds to the beginning of microoxic growth, and that time 0 is aerobic. The composite 3C data in Figure 5 show some interesting but specific differences. It is appreciated that the authors presented the profiles for individual samples in Figure S7, and the differences here do not seem to be as compelling. Are the major differences being highlighted significantly (statistically) different (e.g. at the (c) and (j) loci)? Might the differences be starker if an earlier aerobic condition (e.g. time 0) had been used instead of the 1 hr - microoxic - timepoint?

      Previous Figure 5 consisted of three time points (solid line: aerobic condition, dashed line:1hr of microoxic condition, and dotty line:4hr of microoxic condition). We omitted data of 4hr in the main figure (Figure 7) as 4hr in microoxic conditions makes data complicated. Three time points are shown in the profiles of individual loci (Figure S8).

      There is no statistical significance found in (c) and (j) loci by t-test. Therefore, we have toned down the interpretation of 3C data as follows; “Our 3C result demonstrated that cyAbrB2 influences the chromosomal conformation of hox and nifJ region to some extent (Figure 7).” (ll.325-326)

      (2) This is a complicated system that involves multiple regulatory proteins, each of which is differentially affected by the growth conditions (aerobic/microoxic). It is obviously beyond the scope of this work to probe deeply into all of these proteins. The focus here was on cyAbrB2, and to a slightly lesser extent SigE; however, based on the data presented, it seems that SigA and cyAbrB1 may be equally important contributors to hox control/expression, and in the case of cyAbrB1, possibly also to chromosome conformation. cyAbrB1 appears to have the same binding sites as cyAbrB2, and has been reported to interact with cyAbrB2. Given this association, it is possible that the two proteins may affect the binding of each other, and that loss of one might lead to enhanced binding by the other (or binding may require heterooligomerization?). Probing the regulatory interplay between these two proteins (or at least discussing it) feels important. Conducting e.g. mobility shift assays with each protein, both individually and together, could possibly allow for some understanding of how they function together. 

      We agree that the biochemistry of cyAbrB2 and cyAbrB1 may explain why cyAbrB1 and cyAbrB2 bind long tracts of AT-rich genome regions in vitro. We would like to put the biochemistry future plan as we think biochemistry data is beyond the present study.

      The idea that cyAbrB1 and cyAbrB2 cooperate to form heterooligomers and broad binding to the genome is a very rational and interesting prediction. We add this idea to the discussion “Overall, the biochemistry integrating assay conditions (PTM, buffer condition, and cooperation with cyAbrB1) and output (DNA binding, oligomerization, and DNA structure) will deepen the understanding of cyAbrB2 as cyanobacterial NAPs.”(ll.287-290). We also compared our transcriptome of ∆_cyabrb2 with the recent study of cyabrb1 knockdown (ll. 162-165), and concluded “they partially share their target genes for suppression (Figures 3A S5C and S5D)” (l. 293).

      (3) Throughout the manuscript, there is reference made to cyAbrB2 binding becoming 'blurry' or non-specific under microoxic conditions. It is not clear what this means. It appears that when cyAbrB2 binds, any given protected region can be quite extensive, which can be suggestive of polymerization along the chromosome. Are the boundaries for binding sites typically clearly delineated, and this changes when the cultures are growing under microoxic conditions? There is also no mention made anywhere about oligomerization potential for cyAbrB2, which would be important for the polymerization, and bridging suggested for cyAbrB2 in the model presented in Figure 5. Previous publications (Song et al., 2022; Ishi et al., 2008) have suggested that it can exist as a dimer in vivo, but that in vitro it is largely monomeric. The manuscript would benefit from some additional biochemical analyses of cyAbrB2 binding activity, with a particular focus on DNA binding and oligomerization/bridging potential, and some additional discussion about these characteristics as well. 

      Throughout the manuscript, there is reference made to cyAbrB2 binding becoming 'blurry' or non-specific under microoxic conditions. It is not clear what this means.

      In order to clearly describe “cyAbrB2 binding becomes blurry”, we rearranged the figure composition and made an exclusive figure (Figure 5). We also rephrased the description by adopting the reviewer’s word “boundaries for binding sites”, as this phrase well describes the change. “When cells entered microoxic conditions, the boundaries of the cyAbrB2 binding region and cyAbrB2-free region became obscure (Figure 5), “(ll.319-320)

      There is also no mention made anywhere about oligomerization potential for cyAbrB2,

      We added the discussion about oligomerization “DNA-bound cyAbrB2 is expected to oligomerize, based on the long tract of cyAbrB2 binding region in our ChIP-seq data. However, no biochemical data mentioned the DNA deforming function or oligomerization of cyAbrB2 in the previous studies and preference for AT-rich DNA is not fully demonstrated in vitro (Dutheil et al. 2012; Ishii and Hihara 2008; Song et al. 2022)”(ll. 277-280) and “Overall, the biochemistry integrating assay conditions (PTM, buffer condition, and cooperation with cyAbrB1) and output (DNA binding, oligomerization, and DNA structure) will deepen the understanding of cyAbrB2 as cyanobacterial NAPs.” (ll.287-290)

      The manuscript would benefit from some additional biochemical analyses of cyAbrB2 binding activity, with a particular focus on DNA binding and oligomerization/bridging potential, and some additional discussion about these characteristics as well. 

      We added the discussion integrally considering known features of cyAbrB2, novel findings on cyAbrB2, and the comparison with known NAPs (ll.269-290).

      (4) Given that the major take-away for the authors (based on the title) seems to be the nucleoid-associated protein potential for cyAbrB2, the Discussion would benefit from some additional focus in this area. How similar is cyAbrB2 to other nucleoid-associated proteins? (e.g. H-NS, Lsr2) How does counter-silencing work for other nucleoid-associated proteins? Can the authors definitively exclude the possibility of binding site competition/occlusion, given that cyAbrB2 covers the promoter region of hox? What is other nucleoid-associated proteins have been characterized in the cyanobacteria? 

      We agree with the point, so we additionally discussed cyAbrB2 comparing with H-NS and Lsr2, the canonical NAPs (ll. 269-290).

      We did not deny the possibility of the exclusion of RNAP by cyAbrB2, but the previous manuscript insufficiently discussed that. To emphasize that cyAbrB2 excludes RNA polymerase, we simplified Figure 6 and employed mosaic plots showing anti-co-occurrence of cyAbrB2 binding regions and SigE peaks. Furthermore, we added discussion about SigE exclusion by cyAbrB2 (ll. 355-359)

      We mention the possibility of other nucleoid-associated proteins in cyanobacteria in the discussion. “Furthermore, the conformational changes by deletion of cyAbrB2 were limited, suggesting there are potential NAPs in cyanobacteria yet to be characterized.” (ll.336-339)

      (5) Previous work (Song et al., 2022) showed that changing the AT content of cyAbrB2 binding sites did not affect its ability to bind DNA. There are also previous papers suggesting that cyAbrB2 may be subject to diverse post-translational modifications (e.g. phosphorylation - Spat et al., 2023; glutationylation - Sakr et al., 2013), as well as association with cyAbrB1. These collectively suggest there may be other factors that contribute to cyAbrB2 binding specificity/activity. These seem like relevant points to discuss, particularly given the transient nature of the cyAbrB2 effects on some genes.

      We have included the discussion about AT content, post-translational modifications and transient regulations, and association with cyAbrB1 (ll. 284-295)

      (6) Given the major binding site for SigA upstream of the hox operon, it seems that it likely also contributes to hox cluster expression, together with SigE. Is there a sense for the relative contribution of each sigma factor to hox cluster expression? And whether both are subject to the same inhibitory effect of cyAbrB2? 

      As described above response to the public review, the SigA binding site upstream of the hox operon should be assigned to the TSS of TU1715 (Figure 6C). Transcription of hox operon is highly dependent on SigE as shown in Figure S2, and residual transcription in sigE∆ strain is derived from other sigma factors (SigABCD). Estimating the relative contribution of sigma factors other than SigE is difficult at present because SigABCDE can partially compensate for each other.

      As the different impact of NAPs on the primary and alternative sigma factor is observed in H-NS (Shin et al. 2005), whether both the primary sigma factor (SigA) and the alternative sigma factor (SigE) are inhibited by cyAbrB2 to the same extent is a very interesting question.

      We calculated the odds ratio of SigE and SigA being in the cyAbrB2-free region and wrote in the result; “SigE preferred the cyAbrB2-free region in the aerobic condition more than SigA did (Odds ratios of SigE and SigA being in the cyAbrB2-free region were 4.88 and 2.74, respectively).” (ll.193-195) and discussed “The higher exclusion pressure of cyAbrB2 on SigE may contribute to sharpening the transcriptional response of hox and nifJ on entry to microoxic conditions.” (ll.357-359)

      (7) The 3C experiments suggest there are indeed changes in chromosome architecture in the hox region as growth conditions change and when different regulators are present. Across the chromosome, analogous changes are expected; however, it may be premature to draw this conclusion based on changes at one locus. Is there a reason that the authors did not take full advantage of their 3C samples and sequence them, to capture the full chromosome interactome at the two time-points? This would allow broader conclusions to be drawn regarding changes in chromosome structure and the impact of cyAbrB2.

      In response to the suggestion, we performed an additional 3C assay on the nifJ region by utilizing residual 3C samples. Expanding to genome-wide sequence (Hi-C) needs concentration of ligated fragments by the biotinylation, which were omitted in our 3C sample.

      We rewrote the result as obtained from the 3C data of hox and nifJ (ll.220-245) and omitted the schematic image of an entire chromosome of cyanobacteria (previous Figure 5E).

      Editorial comments: 

      (1) The data presentation in Figure 1 is very effective. 

      (2) Line 87: please rephrase - you can have 'high similarity' or 'high levels of identity', but not high levels of homology - genes/proteins are either homologous or not.

      (3) Line 118: classified into four 'groups'? 

      (4) Line 590: remove 'the'. 

      (5) Figure 2S, panel B: please define acronyms in the legend (GT, IP) and write out 'FLAG' in full for AbrB1.

      (2) to (5) have been corrected.

      (6) Please provide information on or a reference for the tagging of SigA for use in the ChIP-seq experiments within the Materials and Methods.

      Added (l.365)

      (7) Line 648: space between 'binding' and 'regions'. 

      corrected.

      (8) Fig 4E: please make the solid lines thicker - they are currently difficult to see.

      We have made Figure 6C (former 4E) larger and the line thicker.

      (9) Line 666: location. 

      (10) Line 673: Individual. 

      (11) Figure S5, panel C graph title: should this be 'Relative'? 

      (12) Figure S7: What is 'GT'? Should this be 'WT'? 

      (9) to (12) have been corrected.

      (13) In addition to the data presented in Figure 3G, it would be nice to have a small table or Venn diagram summarizing the number of cyAbrB2 binding sites that fall into the different categories (full gene/operon; downstream of a gene; within a gene; promoter region). 

      In response to the comment, we noticed the categories we had applied (full gene/operon; downstream of a gene; within a gene; promoter region) were arbitrary. Therefore, we categorized transcriptional units (TUs) according to the extent of occupancy by cyAbrB2. (Figures 4B and 4C)

      (14) Line 280-281: suggest replacing 'mediates' with 'influences'. 'Mediates' sounds like a direct interaction (for which the evidence is not currently strong without some additional biochemical data), but 'influences' could better accommodate both direct and indirect possibilities. 

      (15) Line 410: it is not clear what this means. 

      We have omitted “As a result, DNA ~600-fold condensed DNA than 3C samples were ligated.”, as it does not give any information about the experimental procedure.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews

      Public Reviews: 

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review): 

      The goal of the current study was to evaluate the effect of neuronal activity on blood-brain barrier permeability in the healthy brain, and to determine whether changes in BBB dynamics play a role in cortical plasticity. The authors used a variety of well-validated approaches to first demonstrate that limb stimulation increases BBB permeability. Using in vivo-electrophysiology and pharmacological approaches, the authors demonstrate that albumin is sufficient to induce cortical potentiation and that BBB transporters are necessary for stimulus-induced potentiation. The authors include a transcriptional analysis and differential expression of genes associated with plasticity, TGF-beta signaling, and extracellular matrix were observed following stimulation. Overall, the results obtained in rodents are compelling and support the authors' conclusions that neuronal activity modulates the BBB in the healthy brain and that mechanisms downstream of BBB permeability changes play a role in stimulus-evoked plasticity. These findings were further supported with fMRI and BBB permeability measurements performed in healthy human subjects performing a simple sensorimotor task. There is literature to suggest that there are sex differences in BBB dysfunction in pathophysiological conditions and the authors have acknowledged the use of only males as a minor limitation of the study that should be addressed in the future. Future studies should also test whether the upregulation of OAT3 plays a role in cortical plasticity observed following stimulation. Overall, this study provides novel insights into how neurovascular coupling, BBB permeability, and plasticity interact in the healthy brain. 

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      This study builds upon previous work that demonstrated that brain injury results in leakage of albumin across the blood brain barrier, resulting in activation of TGF-beta in astrocytes. Consequently, this leads to decreased glutamate uptake, reduced buffering of extracellular potassium and hyperexcitability. This study asks whether such a process can play a physiological role in cortical plasticity. They first show that stimulation of a forelimb for 30 minutes in a rat results in leakage of the blood brain barrier and extravasation of albumin on the contralateral but not ipsilateral cortex. The authors propose that the leakage is dependent upon neuronal excitability and is associated with an enhancement of excitatory transmission. Inhibiting the transport of albumin or the activation of TGF-beta prevents the enhancement of excitatory transmission. In addition, gene expression associated with TGF-beta activation, synaptic plasticity and extracellular matrix are enhanced on the "stimulated" hemisphere. That this may translate to humans is demonstrated by a break down in the blood brain barrier following activation of brain areas through a motor task. 

      Strengths: 

      This study is novel and the results are potentially important as they demonstrate an unexpected break down of the blood brain barrier with physiological activity and this may serve a physiological purpose, affecting synaptic plasticity. 

      The strengths of the study are: 

      (1) The use of an in vivo model with multiple methods to investigate the blood brain barrier response to a forelimb stimulation. 

      (2) The determination of a potential functional role for the observed leakage of the blood brain barrier from both a genetic and electrophysiological view point 

      (3) The demonstration that inhibiting different points in the putative pathway from activation of the cortex to transport of albumin and activation of the TGF-beta pathway, the effect on synaptic enhancement could be prevented.  (4) Preliminary experiments demonstrating a similar observation of activity dependent break down of the blood brain barrier in humans. 

      Weaknesses: 

      The authors adequately addressed most of my points. A few remain: 

      (1) Although the reviewers have addressed the possible effects of anaesthesia on neuro-vascular coupling. They have not mentioned or addressed the possible effects of ketamine (an NMDA receptor antagonist) on synaptic plasticity. Indeed, the low percentage of SEP increase following potentiation (10-20%) could perhaps be explained by partial block of NMDA receptors by ketamine.

      We agree and apologize for this oversight. This important issue is now addressed in the Discussion.

      “Notably, the antagonistic effect of ketamine on NMDA receptors might attenuate the magnitude of SEP potentiation recorded in our experiments (Anis et al., 1983; Salt et al., 1988).”

      (2) The experimental paradigms remain unclear to me. Now, it appears that drugs are applied for 50 minutes and that the stimulation occurs during the "washout period". The more conventional approach would be to have the drug application during the stimulation period to determine if the drugs occlude or enhance the effects of stimulation and then washout the drugs. The problem is that drugs variably washout at different rates depending upon their lipid solubility.

      We agree that the more conventional approach would have been to continue applying the drug throughout the experiment and that differential rates of washout may add variability to our experiments. However, despite this limitation, within each treatment group we found that the SEP response at 50 minutes (immediately after the drug application window) does not differ from SEP response at 80 minutes (after 30 minutes of stimulation and washout) [Figure 3H&G]. This suggests that the drug effects were still present despite terminating drug application and performing potentiation-inducing stimulation. Moreover, our analysis showed that animals within each treatment group (except AP5) had similar SEP responses with little intra-group variability.

      (3) It is still not clear to what extent the experimenters and those doing the analysis were blinded to group. If one or both were blind to group, then please put this in the methods.

      Thank you for this comment. We revised the Methods section to clearly confirm that data was collected and analyzed blindly.  

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      This study used prolonged stimulation of a limb to examine possible plasticity in somatosensory evoked potentials induced by the stimulation. They also studied the extent that the blood brain barrier (BBB) was opened by the prolonged stimulation and whether that played a role in the plasticity. They found that there was potentiation of the amplitude and area under the curve of the evoked potential after prolonged stimulation and this was long-lasting (>5 hrs). They also implicated extravasation of serum albumin, caveolae-mediated transcytosis, and TGFb signalling, as well as neuronal activity and upregulation of PSD95. Transcriptomics was done and implicated plasticity related genes in the changes after prolonged stimulation, but not proteins associated with the BBB or inflammation. Next, they address the application to humans using a squeeze ball task. They imaged the brain and suggest that the hand activity led to an increased permeability of the vessels, suggesting modulation of the BBB. 

      Strengths: 

      The strengths of the paper are the novelty of the idea that stimulation of the limb can induce cortical plasticity in a normal condition, and it involves opening of the BBB with albumin entry. In addition, there are many datasets and both rat and human data. 

      Weaknesses: 

      The conclusions are not compelling however because of a lack of explanation of methods.

      In the revised paper, we added a section titled ‘study design’ that presents an overview of the experimental approach.

      The explanation of why prolonged stimulation in the rat was considered relevant to normal conditions should be as clear in the paper as it is in the rebuttal.

      We added a new paragraph to the Discussion section explaining this point as we did in the rebuttal:  

      “Our animal experiments show that a 30 min limb stimulation (at 6Hz and 2mA) increases cross-BBB influx, while a 1 min stimulation (of similar frequency and magnitude) does not. We believe that both types of stimulations fall within the physiological range because our continuous electrophysiological recordings showed no signs of epileptiform or otherwise pathological activity. Moreover, the recorded SEP levels were similar to those reported in previous physiological LTP studies in rats (Eckert & Abraham, 2010; Han et al., 2015; Mégevand et al., 2009) and humans (McGregor et al., 2016). In humans, skill acquisition often involves motor training sessions that last ≥30 minutes (Bengtsson et al., 2005; Classen et al., 1998) and result in physiological plasticity of sensory and motor systems (Classen et al., 1998; Draganski et al., 2004; Sagi et al., 2012). Hence, the experimental task in our human study (30 minutes of repetitive squeezing of an elastic stress-ball) is likely to represent physiological activity, with neuronal activation in primarily motor and sensory areas (Halder et al., 2005). Future human and animal studies are needed to explore the BBB modulating effects of additional stimulation protocols – with varying durations, frequencies, and magnitudes. Such studies may also elucidate the temporal and ultrastructural characteristics that differentiate between physiological and pathological BBB modulation. “

      The authors need to ensure other aspects of the rebuttal are as clear in the paper as in the rebuttal too. 

      Thank you for this comment. This was addressed in the revised paper.

      The only remaining concern that is significant is that it is hard to understand the figures. 

      Thank you for this comment. We revised the figures according to the reviewer’s recommendations. We hope that these changes increase the legibility of the figures. 

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      The manuscript is improved but there are still suggestions that do not appear to have been addressed. More experiments are not involved in addressing these concerns but one wants the paper to be clarified in terms of what was done. 

      Figures. Please use arrows to point to the effect that the reader should see. Please note what the main point is. 

      Major concerns: 

      Please add explanations, exact p values, and other revisions in the rebuttal to the paper. 

      Rebuttal explanations were added to the paper and p values appear in figure legends.

      Fig 1d shows a seizure-like event which the authors don't think is a seizure because it lacks a depolarization ship. This explanation is not convincing because a LFP would not necessarily show a depolarization ship. Another argument of a discussion of the event as a seizure is warranted. Note that expanding the trace might also show it is unlike a seizure. Regarding the idea that 6Hz 2 mA stimuli for 30 min are physiological, the authors make three arguments which are not clear. First, no epileptiform activity was found, but in Fig. 1 it looks like a seizure occurred. Second, memory and skill acquisition in humans open involve a similar training duration - but what about 6Hz 2 mA?

      Rats are known to rhythmically move their whiskers at frequencies ranging between 5 and 15 Hz (Mégevand et al., 2009). We agree that there is no clear way to justify the similarity between the experimental design in humans and rats. However, we believe that both paradigms (paw stimulation in rats and ball squeeze in humans) represent non-pathological input that we found to modulate barrier permeability. This argument was added to the discussion of the paper:

      “We believe that both types of stimulations fall within the physiological range because in rats, activity between 515 Hz represents physiological rhythmic whisker movement during environment exploration (Mégevand et al., 2009).” 

      Seizures are typically induced in rats via direct tetanic stimulation of the brain (at 50 Hz and 0.3-2.5mA) or maximal electroshock test to the cornea (at 50 Hz and 150 mA) (Swinyard et al., 1952). We, therefore, assert that the activity we observe represents physiological responses and not seizures. This argument is beyond the scope of the current paper. 

      Please note a limitation is that the high level of serum albumin is unlikely to be physiological but may not have been as high in the animal because of the low diffusion rate and degradation (please add the refs in the rebuttal). 

      Thank you, we added the following to the Results section: 

      “The relatively high concentration of albumin was chosen to account for factors that lower its effective tissue concentration such as its low diffusion rate and its likelihood to encounter a degradation site or a cross-BBB efflux transporter (Tao & Nicholson, 1996; Zhang & Pardridge, 2001).”

      Fig. 1. 

      Please consider a box in b to show where the expanded traces in the lower row came from. 

      Thank you for the suggestion. We added lines indicating where the trace excerpts were taken from.

      c. Please use arrows to point to the parts that the authors want the reader to note. In the legend, explain what t is, and delta HbT.

      Thank you. We implemented this suggestion.

      d. It is not clear what the double-sided arrows are meant to show compared to the arrow without two sides. 

      We replaced the two-headed arrow with two single ones.

      e. Please explain what the upward lines at the top signify. What does the red asterisk mean? 

      Thank you. We implemented this suggestion.

      f. Is the reader supposed to note the yellow area? Please make it with an arrow or circle if so. 

      Thank you, we added a white circle to mark the area of tracer accumulation.

      g. Please explain what the permeability index is or reference the part of the paper that does. 

      Further to this suggestion, we added a refence to the appropriate methods section to the legend.

      h. Please use arrows to point to the area of interest. 

      Thank you. We implemented this suggestion.

      m-n. Please mark areas of interest with arrows.  m. the top right two images are unclear. I suggest making them say ipsi inset and contra inset instead of using asterisks. 

      Thank you. We added the ipsi and contra labels to panels in m. The images in panel n represent a phenomenon with no particular region of interest, but rather peri-vascular tracer accumulation along the entire depicted blood vessel. We clarified that panel n represents a separate experiment than panel m: “n. In an animal injected with both EB and NaFlu post stimulation, fluorescence imaging shows extravascular accumulation of both tracers along a cortical small vessel in the stimulated hemisphere.”

      Figure 2. 

      (2) a. Middle. What are the vertical lines at the top? The rebuttal states that was explained in the revised legends but I don't see it. 

      Our apologies. We now included an explanation that “an excerpt of the stimulation trace is shown above the middle LFP trace”.

      c and d are very different field potentials in shape and therefore hard to compare. The rebuttal addresses this but the explanation is not in the revised text. 

      We agree that there is variability in SEP responses between animals. We now added a statement acknowledging this in the methods section: “To overcome potential variability in SEP morphology between animals (Mégevand et al., 2009), each animal’s plasticity measures (max amplitude and AUC of post stimulation SEP) were compared to the same measures at baseline.” 

      In d, it is not clear there is potentiation because the traces are not aligned. 

      All panels depicting SEP traces represent raw data with no alignment. The shift observed in panel d exemplifies why we compare post-stimulation parameters of max amplitude and area under curve to baseline in each animal. 

      Exact P values are said to have been added in the rebuttal but they were not. 

      Exact P values appear in Figure legends.

      (3) b. Use arrows to mark the area of interest. 

      Thank you. We added a white circle to mark the area of tracer accumulation similar to Figure 1f.

      d. Why is there an oscillation superimposed on all traces except CNQX? 

      We agree that this is an interesting question. Future studies should determine the source of this SEP pattern.   

      (4) What does the line and the number 2 mean? How were data normalized? What was counted? What area of cortex?

      The number 2 refers to the scale bar line, meaning a log fold change of 2 reflects the size of the scale bar line. 

      The plot shows the log fold change against the mean count of each gene in the contralateral somatosensory cortex between 1 and 24 hours after stimulation.

      The x axis title was changed to “mean expression” and the legend was modified to:

      “Scatter plot of gene expression from RNA-seq in the contralateral somatosensory cortex 24 vs. 1 h after 30 min stimulation. The y axis represents the log fold change, and the x axis represents the mean expression levels (see methods, RNA Sequencing & Bioinformatics). Blue dots indicate statistically significant differentially expressed genes (DEGs) by Wald Test (n=8 rats per group).”

      How were the pericytes, smooth muscle cells, ,etc. distinguished? 

      This was explained under Methods->RNA Sequencing & Bioinformatics: “Analysis of cell-specific and vascular zonation genes was performed as described (Vanlandewijck et al., 2018), using the database provided in (http://betsholtzlab.org/VascularSingleCells/database.html).”

      What were the chi square statistics? If there were cells used instead of rats, please justify. 

      Thank you. The legend was expanded to include the following:

      “The contralateral somatosensory cortex was found to have a significantly higher number of DEGs related to synaptic plasticity, than the ipsilateral side (***p<0.001, Chi-square).”     

      (5) b. what do the icons mean? 

      We agree that the icons were confusing. We simplified this panel to just show when participants were asked to squeeze the ball (black icon). This explanation was added to the Figure legend.

      Abbreviations? 

      Abbreviations of MRI protocols were added to the figure legend for clarity.

      In c-e what are the units of measure? Fold-change? 

      The units represent t-statistics values for each voxel. The label ‘t-statistic’ was added to the figure.  

      What are the white Iines, + and - signs? 

      The white lines point to voxels of highest activation (t-statistic). This was added to the legend.

      And these are not +/- signs these are voxels with significant activation which only appear similar.

      f. Please explain f and g for clarity. 

      Thank you. The explanation was modified for added clarity.

      Supplemental Fig. 4. 

      Original question: If ipsilateral and contralateral showed many changes why do the authors think the effects were only contralateral? 

      The authors replied: Our gene analysis was designed to complement our in vivo and histological findings, by assessing the magnitude of change in differentially expressed genes (DEGs). This analysis showed that: (1) the hemisphere contralateral to the stimulus has significantly more DEGs than the ipsilateral hemisphere; and (2) the DEGs were related to synaptic plasticity and TGF-b signaling. These findings strengthen the hypothesis raised by our in vivo and histological experiments. 

      Could the authors clarify the answer to the question in the text? 

      Thank you. This section was added to the Discussion. 

      Papers referenced in this letter:

      Anis, N. A., Berry, S. C., Burton, N. R., & Lodge, D. (1983). The dissociative anaesthetics, ketamine and phencyclidine, selectively reduce excitation of central mammalian neurones by N-methyl-aspartate. British Journal of Pharmacology, 79(2), 565–575. hQps://doi.org/10.1111/j.1476-5381.1983.tb11031.x

      Bengtsson, S. L., Nagy, Z., Skare, S., Forsman, L., Forssberg, H., & Ullén, F. (2005). Extensive piano practicing has regionally specific effects on white matter development. Nature Neuroscience, 8(9), 1148–1150. hQps://doi.org/10.1038/nn1516

      Classen, J., Liepert, J., Wise, S. P., Hallett, M., & Cohen, L. G. (1998). Rapid plasticity of human cortical movement representation induced by practice. Journal of Neurophysiology, 79(2), 1117–1123. hQps://doi.org/10.1152/JN.1998.79.2.1117/ASSET/IMAGES/LARGE/JNP.JA47F4.JPEG

      Draganski, B., Gaser, C., Busch, V., Schuierer, G., Bogdahn, U., & May, A. (2004). Changes in grey matter induced by training. Nature, 427(6972), 311–312. hQps://doi.org/10.1038/427311a

      Eckert, M. J., & Abraham, W. C. (2010). Physiological effects of enriched environment exposure and LTP induction in the hippocampus in vivo do not transfer faithfully to in vitro slices. Learning and Memory, 17(10), 480–484. hQps://doi.org/10.1101/lm.1822610

      Halder, P., Sterr, A., Brem, S., Bucher, K., Kollias, S., & Brandeis, D. (2005). Electrophysiological evidence for cortical plasticity with movement repetition. European Journal of Neuroscience, 21(8), 2271–2277. hQps://doi.org/10.1111/J.1460-9568.2005.04045.X

      Han, Y., Huang, M. De, Sun, M. L., Duan, S., & Yu, Y. Q. (2015). Long-term synaptic plasticity in rat barrel cortex. Cerebral Cortex, 25(9), 2741–2751. hQps://doi.org/10.1093/cercor/bhu071

      McGregor, H. R., Cashaback, J. G. A., & Gribble, P. L. (2016). Functional Plasticity in Somatosensory Cortex Supports Motor Learning by Observing. Current Biology, 26(7), 921–927. hQps://doi.org/10.1016/j.cub.2016.01.064

      Mégevand, P., Troncoso, E., Quairiaux, C., Muller, D., Michel, C. M., & Kiss, J. Z. (2009). Long-term plasticity in mouse sensorimotor circuits after rhythmic whisker stimulation. Journal of Neuroscience, 29(16), 5326– 5335. hQps://doi.org/10.1523/JNEUROSCI.5965-08.2009

      Sagi, Y., Tavor, I., HofsteQer, S., Tzur-Moryosef, S., Blumenfeld-Katzir, T., & Assaf, Y. (2012). Learning in the Fast Lane: New Insights into Neuroplasticity. Neuron, 73(6), 1195–1203. hQps://doi.org/10.1016/j.neuron.2012.01.025

      Salt, T. E., Wilson, D. G., & Prasad, S. K. (1988). Antagonism of N-methylaspartate and synapBc responses of neurones in the rat ventrobasal thalamus by ketamine and MK-801. British Journal of Pharmacology,

      94(2), 443–448. hQps://doi.org/10.1111/j.1476-5381.1988.tb11546.x

      Swinyard, E. A., Brown, W. C., & Goodman, L. S. (1952). Comparative assays of antiepileptic drugs in mice and rats. The Journal of Pharmacology and Experimental Therapeutics, 106(3), 319–330. hQp://jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/106/3/319.abstract

      Tao, L., & Nicholson, C. (1996). Diffusion of albumins in rat cortical slices and relevance to volume transmission. Neuroscience, 75(3), 839–847. hQps://doi.org/10.1016/0306-4522(96)00303-X

      Vanlandewijck, M., He, L., Mäe, M. A., Andrae, J., Ando, K., Del Gaudio, F., Nahar, K., Lebouvier, T., Laviña, B.,

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      Betsholtz, C. (2018). A molecular atlas of cell types and zonation in the brain vasculature. Nature, 554(7693), 475–480. hQps://doi.org/10.1038/nature25739

      Zhang, Y., & Pardridge, W. M. (2001). Mediated efflux of IgG molecules from brain to blood across the blood– brain barrier. Journal of Neuroimmunology, 114(1–2), 168–172. hQps://doi.org/10.1016/S01655728(01)00242-9

    1. Author response:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      This study excellently complements the previous one by unveiling the properties of NPRL2 in augmenting the effect of immune checkpoint inhibitors such as pembrolizumab in KRAS mutant lung cancer models.

      The following points should be clarified:

      (1) In KRAS mutant cell lines with LKB1 co-mutations or deletions, such as A549 cells, does treatment with NPRL2 not increase the efficacy of immunotherapy? Is this correct? Similarly, does the delivery of NPRL2 only potentiate the effect of immunotherapy in KRAS mutant cell lines without associated LKB1 mutations?

      NPRL2, when used as a single-agent immunotherapy, induces robust antitumor activity in immunotherapy-resistant (aPD1R) KRAS mutant models, such as A549 tumors (KRASmt/LKB1mt/aPD1R) and LLC2 (KRASmt/aPD1R), where immunotherapy is ineffective regardless of LKB1 co-mutation or deletion status. The antitumor effect of NPRL2 combined with aPD1 immunotherapy was not significantly different from NPRL2 alone in immunotherapy-resistant models but was significantly greater than immunotherapy alone. However, a synergistic antitumor effect was observed with NPRL2 and aPD1 immunotherapy in KRAS wild-type and immunotherapy-moderately-responsive models, such as H1299 (KRASwt/aPD1S).

      (2) Do the authors analyze by western blot if NPRL2 influences or restores STING and LKB1 in the A549 cell line that lacks LKB1 and STING?

      NPRL2 induces antitumor immunity on Kras mutant, aPD1 resistant models regardless of LKB1 co-mutations or deletions, however, it would be interesting to look into the effect of NPRL2 on the STING pathway in this LKB1 deleted A549 cell line.

      (3) Mechanistically, is there any explanation as to why NPRL2 delivery increases the efficacy of immunotherapy? Is there any effect on FUS or MYC?

      NPRL2 is a multifunctional tumor suppressor gene that is downregulated or absent in many cancers. NPRL2 has been shown to induce apoptosis, inhibit cell proliferation, and cause cell cycle arrest in various cancer types. Compelling evidence highlights the critical role of NPRL2 in causing DNA damage and double-strand breaks, which can trigger dendritic cell (DC) activation, antigen presentation, and priming of tumor-specific CD8+ T cells in the tumor microenvironment (TME). Our data indicate that NPRL2 treatment is associated with the induction of DC activation and maturation.

      The cellular mechanism of NPRL2 suggests that NPRL2-mediated antitumor immunity depends on the presence of CD4+ T cells, CD8+ T cells, and macrophages. Interestingly, the expression of FUS1, another tumor suppressor gene, was mostly absent or severely downregulated in most non-small cell lung cancers (NSCLC) and was unaffected by NPRL2 treatment. While MYC expression was not assessed in this study, it remains an area of interest for future research.

      (4) Is there any way to carry out a clinical study of systematically delivering NPRL2 in KRAS lung cancer patients?

      In this preclinical study, a clinical-grade DOTAP-NPRL2 formulation was prepared, utilizing NPRL2 encapsulated within nanovesicles for delivery. Based on the promising preclinical data, a phase I clinical trial will be initiated to evaluate the safety and efficacy of this formulation.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      NPRL2 gene therapy induces effective antitumor immunity in KRAS/STK11 mutant anti-PD1 resistant metastatic non-small cell lung cancer (NSCLC) in a humanized mouse model by Meraz et al investigated the antitumor immune responses to NPRL2 gene therapy in aPD1R / KRAS/STK11mt NSCLC in a humanized mouse model, and found that NPRL2 gene therapy induces antitumor activity on KRAS/STK11mt/aPD1R tumors through DC-mediated antigen presentation and cytotoxic immune cell activation.

      Strengths:

      The novelty of the study.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The inconsistent effect of NPRL2 combined with pembrolizumab. Figure 2I-K, showed a similar tumor intensity in the NPRL2 group and combination group. However, NPRL2 combined with pembrolizumab was synergistic in the KRASwt/aPD1S H1299 tumors in Figure 4.

      NPRL2, as a single agent immunogen therapy, induces robust antitumor activity on both immunotherapy-resistant (aPD1R) KRAS mutant models, such as A549 tumors (KRASmt/LKB1mt/aPD1R) and LLC2 (KRASmt/aPD1R) and immunotherapy sensitive model such as H1299 (KRASwt/aPD1S) where immunotherapy was ineffective or limitedly effective. A synergistic antitumor effect of NPRL2 and Pembrolizumab combination was found only in immunotherapy moderately responsive models, not in immunotherapy resistant models where PD-1/PD-L1 signaling is impaired shown in Figure 1A.

      (2) The authors stated that NPRL2 combined with pembrolizumab was not synergistic in the KRAS/STK11mt/aPD1R tumors but was synergistic in the KRASwt/aPD1S H1299 tumors. How did the synergistic effect defined in the study, more details need to be provided here.

      Our biostatistician used generalized linear regression models to study the tumor growth over time. Two-way ANOVA with the interaction of treatment group and time point was performed to compare the difference of tumor intensity changes from baseline between each pair of the treatment groups at each time point. The nonparametric Mann-Whitney U test was applied to compare significance in different treatment groups. Differences of P < 0.05, P < 0.01, and P < 0.001 were considered statistically significant. When the combination antitumor effect of NPRL2 and pembrolizumab was found to be statistically significant compared to both single-agent effects synergy was confirmed using the method of Huang et al.

      Huang L, Wang J, Fang B, Meric-Bernstam F, Roth JA, Ha MJ. CombPDX: a unified statistical framework for evaluating drug synergism in patient-derived xenografts. Sci Rep 12(1):12984, 7/2022. e-Pub 7/2022. PMCID: PMC9338066.

      (3) Nearly all of the work was performed pre-clinically. Validation in the clinical setting would provide more strong evidence for the conclusion.

      In this preclinical study, a clinical-grade DOTAP-NPRL2 formulation was prepared, utilizing NPRL2 encapsulated within nanovesicles for delivery. Based on the promising preclinical data, a phase I clinical trial will be initiated to evaluate the safety and efficacy of this formulation.

      (4) Figure 5 and Figure 6 have the same legend. These 2 figures could be merged as a new one.

      Agreed.

      (5) Figure 5B & C, n=9 in the Figure 5B. However, the detail number in Figure 5C was less than 9.

      At least n=7-9 mice/group are shown in the figure 5C. We will revise accordingly.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      NPRL2/TUSC4 is a tumor suppressor gene whose expression is reduced in many cancers including NSCLC. This study presents a novel finding on NPRL2 gene therapy, which induces antitumor activity on aPD1-resistant tumors. Since KRAS/STK11 mutant tumors were reported to be less benefited from ICIs, this study has potential clinical application value.

      Strengths:

      This work uncovers the advantage of NPRL2 gene therapy by using humanized models and multiple cell lines. Moreover, via immune cell depletion studies, the mechanism of NPRL2 gene therapy has focused on dendritic cells and CD8+T cells.

      Weaknesses:

      A major concern would be the lack of systematic, and logical rigor. This work did not present a link between apoptosis and antigen presenting induced by NPRL2 restoration. There is no evidence proving that the PI3K/AKT/mTOR signaling pathway is related to antigen presenting, which is the major reason of NPRL2 induced antitumor response. Therefore, the two parts may not support each other logically.

      Thank you for your review and comments. We agree that future studies are necessary to establish a direct link between apoptosis and antigen presentation induced by NPRL2 restoration, as well as NPRL2-mediated downregulation of PI3K/AKT/mTOR signaling and its direct effect on antigen presentation. Although NPRL2 restoration directly induced apoptosis in several cell lines shown in Figure 1C and Figure 8Q and significantly increased the number of antigen-presenting DC cells in the tumor microenvironment upon NPRL2 treatment or NPRL2 restoration. Similarly, NPRL2 restoration downregulated the PI3K/AKT/mTOR pathway, which was associated with increased antitumor immunity.

    1. Note: This response was posted by the corresponding author to Review Commons. The content has not been altered except for formatting.

      Learn more at Review Commons


      Reply to the reviewers

      The manuscript " Phosphoproteomic analysis reveals the diversity of signaling behind ErbB inhibitor-induced phenotypes" authored by Drs. Katri Vaparanta, Anne Jokilammi, Johannes Merilahti, Johanna Örling, Noora Virtanen, Cecilia Sahlgren, Klaus Elenius and Ilkka Paatero was reviewed in Review Commons, and we carried out a full revision based on the received reviewer comments.

      The comments from three reviewers and our point-by-point reply is here below. After each of reviewer´s comment, our reply is formatted in bold.

      Reviewer #1 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      In this study, Vaparanta and co-workers used zebrafish embryos as model to analyze the impact of ErbB tyrosine kinase inhibitors on signaling pathways at the whole organism level. Experimentally, zebrafish embryos were exposed for 1 hour to a single dose of 3 different ErbB tyrosine kinase inhibitors and the global phosphoproteome of the embryos was analyzed by MS/MS. The authors show that the 3 inhibitors differentially modulate the activity of PI3K/Akt, p38 MAPK, Notch, Hippo-YAP/TAZ and β-catenin signaling pathways, associated with different neurological and myocardial phenotypic changes. Using small molecule inhibitors of selective signaling pathways, they show that perturbation of different signaling pathways may induce similar phenotypes in zebrafish embryos.

      Specific comments:

      1. The observation that exposure of zebrafish embryos to lapatinib, gefitinib and AG1478 leads to different global phosphoproteomic changes and to differential modulation of cellular signaling pathways was predictable and supported by an abundant literature. These 3 inhibitors differentially inhibit ErbB homo- and heterodimers and hit many other kinases. This point should be discussed in the paper.

      Indeed, the kinase inhibitors do have different selectivity for the ErbB family kinases as pointed out by the reviewer. We have now discussed this point in the manuscript (new Supplemental Table 1) and added additional data from embryos treated with different ErbB kinase inhibitors with similar selectivity profiles into the manuscript (new Supplemental Figure 3-4). The ErbB family kinase selectivity profile of the inhibitors, however, does not fully explain why treatment with lapatinib (EGFR/ErbB2 inhibitor) induced the most unique phosphoproteomic changes from AG1478 (EGFR/ErbB2/ErbB4 inhibitor) and gefitinib (EGFR inhibitor) treatment in zebrafish embryos. This point is now discussed in the manuscript.

      AG1478 is a first-generation tyrphostin while gefitinib and lapatinib are FDA-approved drugs. These compounds not only have different selectivity profiles, but also different pharmacological properties. Do the authors have any information about the permeability, distribution or concentration of the compounds in zebrafish embryos? Otherwise, how can they compare their effects?

      __The reviewer points out correctly, that not only selectivity but also several other parameters could differ between compounds. The logic of our experimentation was to utilize differences in the properties of inhibitors to get new insights into underlying biological processes. These utilized differences could arise from not only selectivity but also as well from pharmacokinetic and –dynamic properties. Although it can be useful to understand these differences, this information per se is not needed to identify differentially regulated pathways that could affect the studied phenotypes. This is now better clarified in the discussion section. Our data indicates that ErbB inhibition profile explains a significant proportion, but not all, of observed signaling differences (Supplemental Fig. 3C). __

      One major limitation of this study is that phosphoproteomic analysis was performed at a single time point and with a single dose of inhibitor, which compromises the interpretation of the findings. How was the dose of each inhibitor selected?

      The doses were chosen based on our previous work (Paatero et al, 2019; Vaparanta et al, 2023), where with these inhibitor concentrations we were able to maximize the phenotypic effects without causing significant mortality. This is now mentioned in the results section of the manuscript. Higher dosages were lethal for the embryos, especially of AG1478, which is why a lower concentration of this inhibitor was used. The higher toxicity of AG1478 at lower concentrations compared to other ERBB inhibitors has also been previously noted by another group (Pruvot et al, 2014). Similar concentrations of the inhibitors have also been previously used by other groups with zebrafish embryos (Tran et al, 2007; Gallardo et al, 2015; Zhang et al, 2021; Du et al, 2024)__. __

      One approach for better exploiting the data would be to correlate changes in phosphopeptides with the kinome selectivity of the inhibitors.

      Indeed, we have now correlated our results from these inhibitors with other ErbB inhibitors of similar ErbB family kinase selectivity. The phosphoproteomic changes induced by inhibitors with similar ErbB family kinase selectivity significantly correlate (P = 0.0002, r:0.80 ,R2:0.65, Supplemental Fig. 3C) indicating that the ErbB selectivity plays a major role in determining the phosphoproteomic changes induced by these inhibitors. We also performed a correlation analysis between dimensionality-reduced phosphoproteomic changes and inhibitor selectivity. There was no significant correlation between the changes in the phosphoproteome and the ERBB selectivity of the inhibitors (P=0.1551, One-tailed Pearson correlation). Taken together, these results indicate that while the phosphoproteomic changes induced by these inhibitors can be reproduced by other inhibitors with similar ERBB selectivity profiles, inhibiting only a subset of the ERBB kinases (especially EGFR and ERBB2, but not ERBB4) produces a unique signaling signature that is not recapitulated with pan-ERBB inhibitor treatment. This information may be of interest since both lapatinib (EGFR/ERBB2 inhibitor) and neratinib (pan-ERBB inhibitor) are both used in the clinic to treat HER2-positive breast cancer. Our data indicates that the administration of these inhibitors to patients will likely have a differential global effect on cell signaling.

      In the same vein, the signaling inhibitors used in Fig. 4 to dissect the phenotypic impact of distinct signaling pathways are non-selective, precluding any rigorous interpretation of the data. This confounding factor should at least be discussed in the manuscript. Again, the choice of the different doses of inhibitors is not justified.

      Indeed, like all inhibitors, the inhibitors we utilized in Figure 4 can have some off-target effects. We aimed to use the concentration known by previous literature to have a measurable effect on the physiology of the zebrafish embryo (Fujii et al, 2000; Geling et al, 2002; Vasilyev et al, 2012; Jiang et al, 2023)__. These concentrations for different inhibitors were different in the literature, which is why different concentrations of the different inhibitors were used. We couldn’t find a reference for the concentration for VT-103, so a 30µM concentration was selected. With this concentration, the size of the embryo hearts was significantly reduced (P

      The effect of inhibitors on the motility of embryos appears variable. For example, lapatinib markedly decreases motility in Fig. 4E but has no effect in Fig. 4F. Any explanation?

      Different inhibitor concentrations were used in Figure 4E and Figure 4F. This has been now more clearly indicated in the manuscript in the results section and the figure legend. The lower inhibitor dosages in Figure 4F were to reduce the mortality and allow motility analyses of the embryos treated with a combination of the inhibitors analyses to facilitate observation of potential synergistic actions of inhibitors in co-treated embryos.

      The conclusion that ErbB inhibitors induce similar phenotypes by perturbing different signaling pathways is not justified.

      We have now softened our conclusions in the manuscript in the results section by replacing the sentence:” Taken together, these results suggest that AG1478 and lapatinib induce similar phenotypes by partially perturbing different signaling pathways in zebrafish embryos.” With the sentences: ” Taken together, these results suggest that AG1478 and lapatinib induce similar phenotypes but perturb different signaling pathways. Inhibition of these pathways induce similar phenotypes to lapatinib or AG1478 treatment in zebrafish embryos.”.

      I have a few suggestions which could enhance the study's contribution to the field-

      1. The rationale for this study should be elaborated further. What new information is expected to emerge from these studies, independently of the conceptual and technical limitations outlined above?

      We have now further elaborated the rationale of the study in the introduction section.

      The advantage of studying the whole organism instead of selected tissues is questionable. Analyzing a mixture of organs may mask subtle and physiologically relevant alterations of signaling pathways in specific tissues.

      We agree with the reviewer that if the researcher’s interests reside in a specific tissue then a more targeted approach should be applied to probe the phosphoproteome of this tissue. However, sometimes a more global view of the inhibitor effects is required especially when it is unknown which tissues are affected by the inhibitor treatment. Ideally, the global approach would be followed by a more targeted approach on the tissues that are indicated to be affected by the inhibitor. One must also consider the feasibility, time consumption and costs of probing all tissues separately. If only the targeted approach is applied, the information on what pathway activities are globally most affected in the organism by the inhibitor treatment can be hard to estimate.

      Can the authors correlate neurological and myocardial phenotypes extrapolated from their study with pharmacological effects observed in mice or humans treated with these compounds?

      __We have now correlated our findings in the discussion section with the previous literature on the phenotypes of ErbB inhibitor-treated and ErbB receptor knock-out mice and with the reported adverse effects of ErbB inhibitor treatment in the clinic. __

      Reviewer #1 (Significance (Required)):

      The authors show that the 3 inhibitors differentially modulate the activity of PI3K/Akt, p38 MAPK, Notch, Hippo-YAP/TAZ and β-catenin signaling pathways, associated with different neurological and myocardial phenotypic changes. Using small molecule inhibitors of selective signaling pathways, they show that perturbation of different signaling pathways may induce similar phenotypes in zebrafish embryos.

      Reviewer #2 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      In this study, the authors assess the effects of various ErbB receptor family tyrosine kinase inhibitors on the phosphoproteome of late embryonic and early larval stages of zebrafish. MS, Western blotting, and analysis of a transgenic zebrafish Notch signaling reporter line data suggest differential but overlapping effects of treatment with gefitinib, lapatinib and AG1478. Selected deregulated pathways are further assessed using a range of candidate downstream pathway-targeting inhibitors. Inhibitor treatment followed by quantification of spontaneous larval motility and heart ventricle wall area, which were previously found by the authors to be affected by AG1478 and lapatinib treatment, identifies involved downstream signaling pathways.

      Major comments:

      While I do not question the validity of the presented data showing phosphoproteome perturbations resulting from the performed ErbB inhibitor treatments, the treatment regimens used to assess the differential effects of the compounds may be insuffient to substantiate general statements comparing the phenotypic and phosphorylation effects of lapatinib, gefitinib and AG1478 beyond the effects of the specific doses applied to the embryo media. Unless directly quantified, it is difficult to reliably predict the in vivo dose resulting from drug administered to the embryo medium, and therefore a dose may be too high or too low for drug-to-drug comparison. Rationale for chosen dose of drugs should be provided. If available, inclusion of quantitative data on the drug-induced change in phosphorylation status of the drug target(s) is encouraged, and the discussion of the phosphoproteomic and phenotypical data should include this information.

      The reviewer points out correctly, that not only selectivity but also several other parameters could differ between compounds. The logic of our experimentation was to utilize differences in the properties of inhibitors to get new insights into underlying biological processes. These utilized differences could arise from not only selectivity but also as well from pharmacokinetic and –dynamic properties. Although it can be useful to understand these differences, this information per se is not needed for the identification of differentially regulated pathways that could affect the studied phenotypes. This is now better clarified in the manuscript.

      The rationale for the chosen drug doses has now been added to the manuscript in the results section. We used drug concentrations that were known to produce a phenotypic effect without causing significant mortality in the zebrafish embryos.

      The ErbB receptors themselves are expressed at low levels, and unfortunately, we couldn´t reliably observe phosphopeptides of ErbB tyrosine autophosphorylation sites. To address this issue from a different angle, we treated embryos with other ErbB inhibitors exhibiting similar ErbB inhibition profiles as AG1478, lapatinib, and gefitinib (Supplemental Figure 3-4). This data indicates that the ErbB inhibition profile correlates quite well with the observed changes in the downstream signaling pathways p38, pAkt, pErk and Notch (Figure 3C and 4C).

      Husbandry: The statement that "Zebrafish were maintained (...) following standard procedures." is insufficient without a specific reference. Please provide details on water quality parameters, temperature, light/darkness cycle and feeding regimen.

      The requested information has now been added to the manuscript.

      Western analysis: How many embryos were pooled in each sample? Please specify standard protocol or provide reference.

      We have now amended the western analysis chapter in the materials and methods section as suggested by the reviewer. Five embryos were pooled for each sample.

      Ventricle growth assay: The method of ventricle wall quantification is insufficiently described and might result in unnecessarily high variation. At which stage of the cardiac contraction-relaxation cycle were ventricle wall thickness and ventricle area measured? The confounding effect of contraction could be avoided altogether by stopping the heartbeat pharmacologically e.g. by administration of blebbistatin or verapamil. Subtracting ventricle lumen area from total ventricle area seems a much more direct measure of ventricle wall area than the estimation obtained by multiplying ventricle wall thickness with ventricle area.

      We apologize for the mistake in the materials methods section, where we had written area instead of perimeter. We have now amended the ventricle growth assay chapter in the materials and methods sections and added more details on the ventricle wall area estimation. The ventricle wall area was measured from high-speed movies in diastole and systole, and the average perimeter over these states was reported. The ventricle wall thickness was only measured in systole. We chose this quantification method since the lumen area is difficult to estimate in the systole.

      Phosphopeptide enrichment: How many embryos per sample? Final DMSO concentration is not stated.

      __Twenty embryos per sample and 1% DMSO was used. This information is now included in the materials and methods section. __

      P-values are presented for comparison of select groups only and a statement that e.g. only P-values We have added the recommended statement and the mean/median value with deviation values for the data indicated by the reviewer in the figure legends.

      Minor comments:

      Overall, the manuscript is well written and data and methods are well presented.

      The relevant targets within the ErbB family of receptors should be introduced including information on well-established functions and downstream signaling pathways to enable the non-specialist reader to place the presented data in the context of known gene and protein function. Furthermore, conservation of target proteins in zebrafish should be touched upon.

      We have now rewritten the introduction and results sections to include information on the ErbB family kinase selectivity of these inhibitors, the well-established functions and the target downstream pathways of ErbB receptors. We have now performed a multiple sequence alignment on the kinase domain of the ErbB receptors in human and zebrafish to estimate the conservation of the inhibitor targets in the zebrafish model. Human ErbB kinase domains had a high 86+/-9% sequence identity with zebrafish counterparts (Supplemental Figure 2) compared to 67+/-14% identity with the other ErbB kinase domain sequences in zebrafish (P=0.012).

      Given different target profiles of the tested drugs among receptors of the ErbB family, differences in protein phosphorylation perturbations and in treatment-induced phenotypes may not be unexpected. Statements such as: "An unexpectedly large cluster of phosphopeptides that were increased in lapatinib-treated embryos but reduced in AG1478 and gefitinib treated embryos was detected" and "AG1478 and lapatinib may induce similar phenotypes by partially perturbing different signaling pathways in zebrafish embryos" should be discussed in the context of known drug target(s) and their functions.

      We have now rewritten these statements as suggested by the reviewer and the target profiles are now discussed in the manuscript.

      **Referee Cross-commenting**

      I agree with the other reviewers on almost all points.

      1) While the sensitivity to smaller or highly local effects is most likely reduced using the whole organism approach compared to e.g. single tissue analysis, I do believe that it is highly relevant due to its ability to identify potential effects beyond a single tissue or organ.

      2) I maintain that while the presented data nicely show the effects of each administered dose of the individual compounds, the data does not allow for meaningful drug-to-drug comparisons without quantitative information on in vivo dose or direct target effect. If such information cannot be included, cross-drug conclusions and discussion should be done very carefully.

      Reviewer #2 (Significance (Required)):

      The evaluation of systemic molecular and phenotypic consequences of anti-cancer drugs in a vertebrate model system represents a relevant advancement. Although drug effects are likely to differ somewhat between embryonic and larval zebrafish and human cancer patients, the authors' comparison of obtained zebrafish data with human data supports translatability of the presented phosphoproteomics data. Also, the presented data pose a relevant advancement facilitating the informed use of the tested inhibitors as tools in basic science.

      Expertise: Molecular biology, signaling, zebrafish. Limited expertise in omics data analysis and pharmacology.

      Reviewer #3 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      The authors evaluated selected EGFR inhibitors developed as targeted cancer therapeutics, using zebrafish embryos and larvae as an in vivo model system. They performed mass spectrometry to analyze phosphorylation levels in target proteins, in combination with western blotting and gene set enrichment analyses; using this data, they assessed overlap between the inhibitors and overlap with known human data. They also performed imaging and locomotion analyses to assess alterations in phenotypes and phosphorylation-dependent signaling due to the inhibitor(s). The study generates novel information that is potentially relevant to the toxicity and efficacy of clinically used kinase inhibitors.

      • The statistical analyses are appropriate to the data and the experimental design.
      • The claims made by the authors are consistent with the data. In my opinion, the following revisions are needed for the manuscript to be accepted for publication:

      • There is no mention of Gefitinib in the Abstract; please include it.

      Gefitinib is now included in the Abstract.

      Please state the target selectivity profiles (from known preclinical and/or clinical data) of the three inhibitors used.

      __These are now presented in supplemental data (Supplemental Table 1), and analysed in relation to the observed signaling changes (Supplemental Figures 3 and 4). __

      Please clarify whether the residues mentioned in the phospho-specific antibody data refer to zebrafish or human proteins.

      Residues refer to human proteins as they are more widely used. This is now more clearly indicated in the materials and methods section.

      Please state whether the pan-antibodies corresponding to the phospho-specific antibody targets were used, and mention any problems associated with their use. This will help readers not familiar with antibody use in zebrafish experiments. It will also help emphasize the value of mass spectrometric analysis in zebrafish protein work.

      __As pointed out, the target specificity of antibodies is not often defined in zebrafish models on residue level, and phospho-specific antibodies may bind several closely related targets. The availability of robustly validated antibodies for zebrafish work, especially for phosphospecific epitopes, is quite limiting and therefore other, non-antibody-based techniques would be highly useful. This is now discussed in the manuscript. The phosphorylation site-specific antibodies used in this study indeed recognize the phosphorylated residue in several protein family members which further complicates the result interpretation. This is less of a limitation in the DIA-MS based phosphoproteomics approach which is now additionally discussed in the manuscript. __

      Please attempt to describe the clinically documented cardiovascular and neurological effects of the inhibitors and any correlation(s) with your data. This will enhance the impact of the study.

      See our reply for reviewer#1, comment 3.

      **Referee Cross-commenting**

      The common points raised in all the Reviews are the following:

      1. The rationale of the study should be described in more detail, especially the utility of zebrafish as an in vivo model, addressing its advantages and limitations.

      This is now discussed more extensively in the manuscript.

      The findings need to be described in the context of the target selectivity profiles and clinical effects of the inhibitors, especially the approved inhibitors (Gefitinib and Lapatinib).

      We have added data on target selectivity profiles (Supplemental Table 1), target conservation (Supplemental Figure 2) and also compared our observations to zebrafish embryos treated with other ErbB inhibitors with similar ErbB selectivity profiles (Supplemental Figure 3 and 4).

      1. In my opinion, while the comments regarding target site drug concentration (within the embryos/larvae) and dose-response are relevant, I consider these experiments to be appropriate in a more detailed follow-up study.

      We agree with the reviewer that the comprehensive pharmacokinetic studies fall outside the scope of this manuscript. As discussed before, in this manuscript we utilize differential inhibitor properties to gain new insight into phenotypes and underlying biological processes. This logic works even if the differences arise from properties other than the target selectivity.

      One of the main value additions of the study is that it highlights a useful alternative to conventional strategies used in preclinical cellular and mammalian model studies of kinase inhibitors. I would urge the authors to discuss specific future directions, giving due importance to all the reviewers' comments.

      This is now more extensively elaborated in the discussion section.

      Reviewer #3 (Significance (Required)):

      The experiments are well-described and provide sufficient information and detail for readers to understand and reproduce.

      The study is highly relevant to the use of zebrafish as a whole-organism model for in vivo evaluation of drugs, specifically kinase inhibitors.

      References

      Du K, Liu Y, Zhang L, Peng L, Dong W, Jiang Y, Niu M, Sun Y, Wu C, Niu Y et al (2024) Lapatinib combined with doxorubicin causes dose-dependent cardiotoxicity partially through activating the p38MAPK signaling pathway in zebrafish embryos. Biomed Pharmacother 175. doi:10.1016/J.BIOPHA.2024.116637.

      Fujii R, Yamashita S, Hibi M, Hirano T (2000) Asymmetric p38 activation in zebrafish: Its possible role in symmetric and synchronous cleavage. Journal of Cell Biology 150. doi:10.1083/jcb.150.6.1335.

      Gallardo VE, Varshney GK, Lee M, Bupp S, Xu L, Shinn P, Crawford NP, Inglese J, Burgess SM (2015) Phenotype-driven chemical screening in zebrafish for compounds that inhibit collective cell migration identifies multiple pathways potentially involved in metastatic invasion. DMM Disease Models and Mechanisms 8. doi:10.1242/dmm.018689.

      Geling A, Steiner H, Willem M, Bally-Cuif L, Haass C (2002) A γ-secretase inhibitor blocks Notch signaling in vivo and causes a severe neurogenic phenotype in zebrafish. EMBO Rep 3. doi:10.1093/embo-reports/kvf124.

      Jiang Y, Zhao X, Chen J, Aniagu S, Chen T (2023) PM2.5 induces cardiac malformations via PI3K/akt2/mTORC1 signaling pathway in zebrafish larvae. Environmental Pollution 323. doi:10.1016/j.envpol.2023.121306.

      Paatero I, Veikkolainen V, Mäenpää M, Schmelzer E, Belting HG, Pelliniemi LJ, Elenius K (2019) ErbB4 tyrosine kinase inhibition impairs neuromuscular development in zebrafish embryos. Mol Biol Cell 30. doi:10.1091/mbc.E18-07-0460.

      Pruvot B, Curé Y, Djiotsa J, Voncken A, Muller M (2014) Developmental defects in zebrafish for classification of EGF pathway inhibitors. Toxicol Appl Pharmacol 274. doi:10.1016/j.taap.2013.11.006.

      Tran TC, Sneed B, Haider J, Blavo D, White A, Aiyejorun T, Baranowski TC, Rubinstein AL, Doan TN, Dingledine R et al (2007) Automated, quantitative screening assay for antiangiogenic compounds using transgenic zebrafish. Cancer Res 67. doi:10.1158/0008-5472.CAN-07-3126.

      Vaparanta K, Jokilammi A, Paatero I, Merilahti JA, Heliste J, Hemanthakumar KA, Kivelä R, Alitalo K, Taimen P, Elenius K (2023) STAT5b is a key effector of NRG ‐1/ ERBB4 ‐mediated myocardial growth . EMBO Rep 24. doi:10.15252/embr.202256689.

      Vasilyev A, Liu Y, Hellman N, Pathak N, Drummond IA (2012) Mechanical stretch and PI3K signaling link cell migration and proliferation to coordinate epithelial tubule morphogenesis in the zebrafish pronephros. PLoS One 7. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0039992.

      Xin M, Kim Y, Sutherland LB, Qi X, McAnally J, Schwartz RJ, Richardson JA, Bassel-Duby R, Olson EN (2011) Development: Regulation of insulin-like growth factor signaling by Yap governs cardiomyocyte proliferation and embryonic heart size. Sci Signal 4. doi:10.1126/scisignal.2002278.

      Zhang Y, Cai Y, Zhang SR, Li CY, Jiang LL, Wei P, He MF (2021) Mechanism of hepatotoxicity of first-line tyrosine kinase inhibitors: Gefitinib and afatinib. Toxicol Lett 343. doi:10.1016/j.toxlet.2021.02.003.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment

      This study presents a useful comparison of the dynamic properties of two RNA-binding domains. The data collection and analysis are solid, making excellent use of a suite of NMR methods. However, evidence to support the proposed model linking dynamic behavior to RNA recognition and binding by the tandem domains remains incomplete. The work will be of interest to biophysicists working on RNA-binding proteins.

      We thank eLife for taking the time and effort to review our manuscript. Evidence from the literature and our study shows a great deal of parity between the dynamic behavior of dsRBDs and its dsRNA-recognition and -binding that helped us culminate in proposing a fair model. As already mentioned in the manuscript, we have been working on the suggested experiments to support our proposed model further.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In the manuscript entitled "Differential conformational dynamics in two type-A RNA-binding domains drive the double-stranded RNA recognition and binding," Chugh and co-workers utilize a suite of NMR relaxation methods to probe the dynamic landscape of the TAR RNA binding protein (TRBP) double-stranded RNA-binding domain 2 (dsRBD2) and compare these to their previously published results on TRBP dsRBD1. The authors show that, unlike dsRBD1, dsRBD2 is a rigid protein with minimal ps-ns or us-ms time scale dynamics in the absence of RNA. They then show that dsRBD2 binds to canonical A-form dsRNA with a higher affinity compared to dsRBD1 and does so without much alteration in protein dynamics. Using their previously published data, the authors propose a model whereby dsRBD2 recognizes dsRNA first and brings dsRBD1 into proximity to search for RNA bulge and internal loop structures.

      We thank the Reviewer for sending us an encouraging review. We have combined the findings reported in the literature with new ones that led us to propose the dsRNA-binding model by tandem A-form dsRBDs.

      We propose that dsRBD1 can first recognize a variety of sequential and structurally different dsRNAs. dsRBD2 assists the interaction with a higher affinity, thus fortifying the interaction between TRBP and a possible substrate. This may enable the other associated proteins like Dicer and Ago2 to perform critical biological functions.

      However, we feel that a few statements in the comment above are factually incorrect.

      Statement 1. “They then show that dsRBD2 binds to canonical A-form dsRNA with a higher affinity compared to dsRBD1 and does so without much alteration in protein dynamics.”

      We have explicitly shown the perturbation in dsRBD2 dynamics upon RNA binding.

      Statement 2. “Using their previously published data, the authors propose a model whereby dsRBD2 recognizes dsRNA first and brings dsRBD1 into proximity to search for RNA bulge and internal loop structures.”

      Our previously published data suggests that dsRBD1, owing to its high conformational dynamics in solution, is able to recognize a variety of structurally and sequentially different dsRNAs ([Paithankar et al., 2022]). dsRBDs preferably bind to the double-stranded region (minor-major-minor-groove) of an A-form RNA ([Acevedo et al., 2016]; [Vuković et al., 2014]) and do not search for bulge and internal loop structures as a part of the binding event. Even though dsRBDs preferably bind to the double-stranded region, they can still accommodate perturbation in the A-form helix due to mismatch and bulges with decreased binding affinity ([Acevedo et al., 2015]). However, it is a matter of future research to identify how much of a deviation from the A-form structure can be accommodated by the dsRBDs. The diffusion event observed in the literature ([Koh et al., 2013]) also does not show any direct implication for searching for bulge and internal loop structures.

      Strengths:

      The authors expertly use a variety of NMR techniques to probe protein motions over six orders of magnitude in time. Other NMR titration experiments and ITC data support the RNA-binding model.

      Weaknesses:

      The data collection and analysis are sound. The only weakness in the manuscript is the lack of context with the much broader field of RNA-binding proteins. For example, many studies have shown that RNA recognition motif (RRM) domains have similar dynamic characteristics when binding diverse RNA substrates. Furthermore, there was no discussion about the entropy of binding derived from ITC. It might be interesting to compare with dynamics from NMR.

      We understand the reviewer’s point that this study is focused on a dsRNA-binding mechanism rather than addressing the much broader field of RNA-binding. There are multiple challenges in finding a single mechanism that works for all RNA-binding proteins. For instance, RRM is a single-stranded RNA binding domain that is able to read out the substrate base sequence. RRM behaves entirely differently than the dsRBD in terms of target specificity. Besides, several other RNA-binding domains, like the KH-domain, Puf domains, Zinc finger domains, etc., showcase a unique RNA-binding behavior. Thus, it would be really difficult to draw a single rule of thumb for RNA-recognition behavior for all these diverse domains.

      Thank you for pointing out the entropy of binding from ITC. We have now included the entropy of binding discussion in the main text, page 7.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Proteins that bind to double-stranded RNA regulate various cellular processes, including gene expression and viral recognition. Such proteins often contain multiple double-stranded RNA-binding domains (dsRBDs) that play an important role in target search and recognition. In this work, Chug and colleagues have characterized the backbone dynamics of one of the dsRBDs of a protein called TRBP2, which carries two tandem dsRBDs. Using solution NMR spectroscopy, the authors characterize the backbone motions of dsRBD2 in the absence and presence of dsRNA and compare these with their previously published results on dsRBD1. The authors show that dsRBD2 is comparatively more rigid than dsRBD1 and claim that these differences in backbone motions are important for target recognition.

      Strengths:

      The strengths of this study are multiple solution NMR measurements to characterize the backbone motions of dsRBD2. These include 15N-R1, R2, and HetNOE experiments in the absence and presence of RNA and the analysis of these data using an extended-model-free approach; HARD-15N-experiments and their analysis to characterize the kex. The authors also report differences in binding affinities of dsRBD1 and dsRBD2 using ITC and have performed MD simulations to probe the differential flexibility of these two domains.

      Weaknesses:

      While it may be true that dsRBD2 is more rigid than dsRBD1, the manuscript lacks conclusive and decisive proof that such changes in backbone dynamics are responsible for target search and recognition and the diffusion of TRBP2 along the RNA molecule. To conclusively prove the central claim of this manuscript, the authors could have considered a larger construct that carries both RBDs. With such a construct, authors can probe the characteristics of these two tandem domains (e.g., semi-independent tumbling) and their interactions with the RNA. Additionally, mutational experiments may be carried out where specific residues are altered to change the conformational dynamics of these two domains. The corresponding changes in interactions with RNA will provide additional evidence for the model presented in Figure 8 of the manuscript. Finally, there are inconsistencies in the reported data between different figures and tables.

      We thank the reviewer for the comprehensive and insightful review. A larger construct carrying both RBDs was not used because of the multiple challenges pertaining to dynamics study by NMR spectroscopy (intrinsic R2 rates of the dsRBD1-dsRBD2 construct would be high, resulting in broadened peaks) as per our previous experience ([Paithankar et al., 2022]). There would be additional dynamics in that construct coming from domain-domain relative motions, and it is difficult to deconvolute the dynamics information. Further, the dsRNA needed to bind to this construct will be longer, causing further line broadening in NMR.

      Coming to mutational studies, careful designing of domain mutants remains as a challenge because the conformational dynamics in both the domains are distributed all through the backbone rather than only in the RNA-binding residues. The mutational studies would need an exhaustive number of mutations in protein as well as RNA to draw a parallel between the binding and dynamics. Having said that, we are working on making such mutations in the protein (at several locations to freeze the dynamics site-specifically) and the RNA (to change the shape of the dsRNA) to systematically study this mechanism, which will be out of scope of this manuscript.

      The reviewer has rightly pointed out some subtle superficial differences in the reported data between different figures and tables. These superficial differences are present because of the context in which we are describing the data. For example, in Figure S4, we are talking about the average relaxation rates and nOe values for only the common residues we were able to analyze between two magnetic field strengths 600 and 800 MHz. Whereas in Figure 6, we are comparing the averages of the core (159-227) dsRBD residues at 600 MHz, in the presence and absence of D12RNA. The differences, however, are minute falls well within the error range.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Suggestions for improved or additional experiments -

      In regards to ITC data, dsRBD1 does not bind canonical A-form RNA with high affinity. What is dsRBD1 and dsRBD2 affinity to the miR-16 RNA?

      We have not performed ITC-based studies with miR-16 RNA for the domains. The study by Acevedo et al. has shown the effect of lengths of Watson-Crick duplex RNAs upon TRBP2 dsRBD binding. In this study, they have compared the ds22 RNA to miRNA/miRNA* duplex. By using EMSA, they show that the Kd,app (μM) for dsRBD1 is 3.5±0.2 and for dsRBD2 is 1.7±0.1, indicating a higher affinity by the latter ([Acevedo et al., 2015]).

      What was the amount of time used for the 1H saturation in the heteronuclear NOE experiment? Based on the average T1 (1/1.44 s-1) = 0.69 s, a recovery delay of >7 s should have been used for this experiment.

      According to Cavanagh et al., a minimum recovery/recycle delay should be greater than 5*1/R1 to make sure that 99% of the 1HN and 15N magnetizations are restored ([“Protein NMR Spectroscopy, Principles and Practice, John Cavanagh, Wayne J. Fairbrother, Arthur G. Palmer III, and Nicholas J. Skelton. Academic Press, San Diego, 1995, 587 pages, $59.95. ISBN: 0-12-164490-1.,” 1996]). In our study, we have used a relaxation delay of 5 s, which is greater than 7*1/R1avg thus ensuring at least 99% of the 1HN and 15N recover their bulk magnetization.

      Recommendations for improving writing and presentation -

      Figure 3 - The legend in panel C is incomplete.

      Figure 3 (Figure 4 in the revised manuscript) has been updated, and the legend now reads complete.

      Figures 3 E and F - The three views can be combined into one as is done in Figures 4 C and D.

      Thanks for the kind suggestion. We have depicted the kex in the three ranges to highlight the difference between the two domains at each range. Since there are three different exchange regimes with different populations, we believe this gives us an uncomplicated picture while classifying and comparing the dynamics between the two. Combining the three views into one becomes too overwhelming to visualize kex and population distribution in the protein.

      Figure 3 - The residues indicated in the text (e.g., R200, L212, and R224) should be indicated in panels E and F.

      We have marked the residues described in the text in Figure 4C (revised Figure 5C), and thus, they are not mentioned in Figures 3E and 3F (revised Figures 4E and 4F).

      The results and discussion put these findings into minimal context. Most comparisons are made between dsRBD1 and dsRBD2. What about other RNA-binding proteins? There is a wealth of structure/dynamics/functional data about RNA recognition motifs, which do exactly the same thing as described here but are missing.

      We understand the reviewer’s point that this study is focused on a dsRNA-binding mechanism rather than addressing the much broader field of RNA-binding. There are multiple challenges in finding a single mechanism that works for all RNA-binding proteins. For instance, RRM is a single-stranded RNA-recognition motif that can read out the substrate base sequence. RRM behaves entirely differently than the dsRBD in terms of sequence specificity. Besides, several other RNA-binding domains, like the KH-domain, Puf domains, Zinc-finger domains, etc., showcase a unique RNA-binding behaviour. Thus, with the current knowledge, it would not be possible to draw a single rule of thumb for RNA-recognition behaviour for all these diverse domains. Hence, the findings of this study are not comparable to those of other RNA-binding domains and are beyond the scope of this study.

      Results, page 8 - I'm not sure that allosteric quenching is appropriately invoked here. The amount of residues showing dynamics in the apo state is small and the number only moderately increases upon RNA binding. The observation that some residues show an increase and a neighboring residue shows a decrease (or vice versa) upon RNA binding could just be random with the small number of observations. This observation would be more convincing if it were happening to larger regions within the protein.

      We agree with the reviewer that the number of residues showing dynamics in the apo-state of the dsRBD2 is small when compared with that of dsRBD1, and the number only moderately increases upon RNA-binding. However, we believe it is quite important to invoke the allosteric quenching as all the new residues where dynamics is induced, do lie in the spatial proximity, as also observed in the dsRBD1 ([Paithankar et al., 2022]). It is a parameter to not only compare the differences and similarities in the two domains but also to highlight the presence of this phenomenon common in both the type-A dsRBDs of TRBP.

      Minor corrections -

      Introduction, page 2 - The order parameter should be defined for non-NMR experts.

      Thank you for the suggestion. The definition of order parameter has now been included on page 2 of the revised manuscript.

      Introduction, page 2 - TRBP should be defined in the main text the first time used.

      We have now defined TRBP on page 2 of the revised manuscript, where it is used in the main text for the first time.

      Results, page 5 - The reference for the HARD experiment should be given earlier in that paragraph.

      Thank you for the suggestion. We have now referenced the HARD experiment earlier in the last paragraph on page 5 of the revised manuscript.

      Results, page 7 - What is the limiting amount of RNA used for the D12-bound dsRBD2 spin relaxation measurements?

      The limiting amount of RNA used for the D12-bound dsRBD2 spin relaxation measurements is 0.05 equivalent (RNA:Protein= 50 mM:1000 mM). It has now been included on page 7 of the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Throughout the manuscript, NMR datasets are not consistent with one another (a few examples are listed below).

      Figures S4, 6, and Table S4: (a) It is unclear why relaxation data for certain residues are missing in Table S4 (e.g., S156, V168, E177, F192, etc.).

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. We have now reanalyzed the data for all the above-mentioned residues and other missing residues. In the revised manuscript, we have added the data for the above-mentioned residues like E177, R189, and many more N- and C-terminal residues. Unfortunately, for some residues like V168, S184, F192, S209, and L222, we witnessed severe peak broadening while measuring the R2 rates and/or nOe. Hence, data for V168, S184, F192, S209, and L222 are missing in Table S4. We have explicitly mentioned this in the table legends about missing data for a few residues.

      (b) The reported values are not consistent. For example, Figure S4 says that the average 15N-R2 rate is 10.85 +/- 0.36 s-1 whereas Figure 6 says the 15N-R2 rate is 11.02 +/- 0.39 s-1 for the same dataset.

      The superficial differences are present because of the context in which we are describing the data (now mentioned in the methods section on page 13). In Figure S4, we are talking about the average relaxation rates and nOe values for only the common residues we could analyze between two magnetic field strengths, 600 and 800 MHz. Whereas in Figure 6 (revised figure 3), we compare the averages of all the analyzed core dsRBD residues at 600 MHz in the presence and absence of D12RNA. The differences, however, are insignificant, falling well within the error range.

      (c) There is also a discrepancy in reported R2 values (at 600 MHz) in Table S4. It is unclear to me what the reported values are, as most of these are below 1 s-1.

      Thank you very much for pointing out our mistake here. The Table S4 seems to have the wrong values for R2 at 600 MHz. However, the raw data submitted to the BMRB as entry 52077 holds the correct information. We have now updated the Table S4.

      (d) It is also unclear as to why perfectly resolved residues (e.g., L230, A232, D234, etc.) have been omitted from these data (and other datasets such as 15N-CPMGs shown in Figure S6).

      The residues L230, A232, D234, etc., are the C-terminal residues of TRBP-dsRBD2 beyond the core (159-227 aa) fold of dsRBD. They have now been included in the revised figures S6 and S11 for completeness.

      (e) Figure 6 reports a 15N-R2 of 21 s-1 for one of the residues in the absence of RNA. This data point has been omitted from Figure S4.

      In Figure S4, we are talking about relaxation rates and nOe values only for the common residues we could analyze between the two magnetic field strengths, 600 and 800 MHz. Thus, that 15N-R2 value has been omitted.

      The S2 order parameters reported in Figures S5 and S10 are inconsistent with one another, as additional residues are shown in S10 (e.g., N159).

      Thank you for pointing it out. We have now reanalyzed the data for S2 order parameter and Rex by including more residues (e.g., N159, R189, etc) in the core and have updated both Figures S5 and S10. Please see the revised supplementary information.

      Tables S6 and S7 report values for residue R189. This residue has been omitted in every other dataset. Based on the 1H-15N HSQC spectrum shown in Figure S3, this residue gives a well-resolved crosspeak (which lies adjacent to V228). Can the authors explain why they omit data for this residue in Figures S4, 6, and Table S4?

      The reviewer is correct in pointing out that data for R189 is missing in the fast dynamics data, such as Figure S4, Figure 6 (revised figure 3), and Table S4. We have now reanalyzed our raw data and included data for R189 and other missing residues in our updated manuscript. Please see the revised figures S4 and 6 (revised figure 3) and the revised table S4.  

      Moreover, this residue lies in the loop2 region of this domain. Based on the MD simulations (Figure 2), this region is more flexible compared to the rest of the domain. Does the corresponding 15N-relaxation data support this claim?

      Yes, the apo 15N-relaxation data do strongly support this claim. R189 showed a higher than core average R2 rate (R189 = 15.44 +/- 0.69 s-1; core = 10.92 +/- 0.37 s-1) and a lower than core average nOe (R189 = 0.49 +/- 0.05; core = 0.73 +/- 0.03) which indicate a higher flexibility than the rest of the core (updated Figure 3 and Table S4). Additionally, the S2 order parameter for R189 was found to be 0.52 +/- 0.03, slightly lower than the core average of 0.59 +/- 0.03, indicating a more flexible region than the core (updated Table S14). Moreover, the dynamics parameters extracted from HARD experimental data using the geoHARD method for apo TRBP2-dsRBD2 shown in Table S18 depict a high kex value of 31748.72 +/- 955.20 Hz for R189. This supports the claim that this residue is highly flexible with a high exchange rate.

      Figure S9. I was not able to follow this dataset as the data points are not consistent between different residues.

      In Figure S9, the residue-wise peak intensities plotted against the RNA concentration indicate that line broadening was witnessed for all the core residues (irrespective of the initial peak intensity). Another interesting observation is that the terminal residues do not undergo the same line broadening as seen in the core residues.

      It is also unclear why residue G185 is highlighted.

      It is taken as an example and magnified to show the extent of line broadening. This is now explicitly mentioned in the figure caption in the revised supplementary information.

      It is also not clear exactly what the authors are trying to fit, as I see no chemical shift changes upon the addition of RNA (Fig. S8), and the equation used for data fitting (pg. 11) uses chemical shift changes (and not the changes in intensities).

      The same equation can be used to fit the chemical shift perturbation and peak intensity perturbation as a function of ligand concentration. Here, we have tried to fit the intensity perturbation. We have now modified the statement on page 11 in the revised manuscript.

      Table S2: The ITC analysis reports an n value of ~3. Can authors elaborate as to what this means?

      The stoichiometry ~3 indicates the number of TBDP2-dsRBD2 that can interact with D12 RNA in a single binding event. The minimum binding register for dsRBDs is known to be >8 bp (12 bp for optimal binding) ([Ramos et al., 2000]), and one single domain only covers one-third of the face of the cylindrical RNA ([Masliah et al., 2018]). Hence, 3 dsRBD2 could interact with a 12-mer RNA in solution.

      The reported Kd values between the main text (page 7) and Figure 5 are not consistent with one another (one lists 1.18 uM while the other says 1.11 uM). Table S2 does not list the parameters for interactions between dsRBD1 and D12.

      Figure 5 (revised figure 6) depicts the information of a single isolated experiment out of a total of three, whereas in the main text, we say 1.18 μM as the average Kd value (table S2).

      Figure S4: The red axis should read "211" instead of "111".

      Thank you for your helpful insight. We have now changed it in the revised figure.

      Table S3 lists the structural motifs of the two dsRBDs, which are nearly identical to one another, and yet the manuscript claims that these are different (page 4, paragraph 1).

      We agree with the reviewer that the differences are minute but important, which we have tried to highlight in this paper. In particular, loop 2, critical for dsRNA-binding ([Masliah et al., 2012]), is 1 residue longer in dsRBD2 and has a possible effect in enhanced substrate binding.

      Figure S8 shows severe signal attenuation for many residues upon the addition of 100 uM RNA. The most notable among these are residues M194, T195, and C196. Can the authors explain how they measure 15N-relaxation rates for these residues in the presence of 50 uM D12?

      First, we have recorded the measured 15N-relaxation rates for these residues in the presence of 50 mM D12 (RNA:Protein= 50 mM:1000 mM)), corresponding to 0.05 equivalent RNA. The amount of RNA used is less than that used for the HSQC-based titration shown in Figure S8, 0.1 equivalent RNA (RNA:Protein = 5 mM:50 mM), where we witness line broadening for residues like M194, T195, and C196. Second, we increased the overall protein concentration from 50 mM (used in HSQC-based titration) to 1000 mM (used in relaxation measurements) to ensure a better signal-to-noise ratio in all the spectra.

      Use the same coloring scheme for Figures S7 and S8.

      Thank you for the suggestion. We have now edited Figure S8 accordingly.

      Figures are often listed out-of-order, making it difficult to follow the manuscript.

      Thank you for the suggestion. We have now amended the main text to refer to the figures sequentially. While doing so, we have renumbered Figure 6 as Figure 3, Figure 3 as Figure 4, Figure 4 as Figure 5, and Figure 5 as Figure 6.

      Figure captions for the relaxation data should specify the temperature at which these datasets were collected.

      Thanks for the valuable suggestion. We have now added the temperature wherever applicable.

      References

      Acevedo R, Evans D, Penrod KA, Showalter SA. 2016. Binding by TRBP-dsRBD2 Does Not Induce Bending of Double-Stranded RNA. Biophys J 110:2610–2617. doi:10.1016/j.bpj.2016.05.012

      Acevedo R, Orench-Rivera N, Quarles KA, Showalter SA. 2015. Helical Defects in MicroRNA Influence Protein Binding by TAR RNA Binding Protein. PLoS ONE 10:e0116749. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0116749

      Koh HR, Kidwell MA, Ragunathan K, Doudna JA, Myong S. 2013. ATP-independent diffusion of double-stranded RNA binding proteins.

      Masliah G, Barraud P, Allain FH-T. 2012. RNA recognition by double-stranded RNA binding domains: a matter of shape and sequence. Cell Mol Life Sci 70:1875–1895. doi:10.1007/s00018-012-1119-x

      Masliah G, Maris C, König SL, Yulikov M, Aeschimann F, Malinowska AL, Mabille J, Weiler J, Holla A, Hunziker J, Meisner‐Kober N, Schuler B, Jeschke G, Allain FH. 2018. Structural basis of siRNA recognition by TRBP double‐stranded RNA binding domains. EMBO J 37:e97089. doi:10.15252/embj.201797089

      Paithankar H, Tarang GS, Parvez F, Marathe A, Joshi M, Chugh J. 2022. Inherent conformational plasticity in dsRBDs enables interaction with topologically distinct RNAs. Biophys J 121:1038–1055. doi:10.1016/j.bpj.2022.02.005

      Protein NMR Spectroscopy, Principles and Practice, John Cavanagh, Wayne J. Fairbrother, Arthur G. Palmer III, and Nicholas J. Skelton. Academic Press, San Diego, 1995, 587 pages, $59.95. ISBN: 0-12-164490-1. 1996. . J Magn Reson, Ser B 113:277. doi:10.1006/jmrb.1996.0189

      Ramos A, Grünert S, Adams J, Micklem DR, Proctor MR, Freund S, Bycroft M, Johnston DS, Varani G. 2000. RNA recognition by a Staufen double‐stranded RNA‐binding domain. EMBO J 19:997–1009. doi:10.1093/emboj/19.5.997

      Vuković L, Koh HR, Myong S, Schulten K. 2014. Substrate Recognition and Specificity of Double-Stranded RNA Binding Proteins. Biochemistry 53:3457–3466. doi:10.1021/bi500352s

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      Reply to the reviewers

      Response to Reviewer #1:

      We agree with Reviewer 1 that a function of ROPGEFs in this process was expected to some degree. However, we want to point out that this manuscript focuses on the requirement of ROPGEFs and especially the spatio-temporal description of ROP signalling polarisation and activation during pollen germination. Moreover, different to the downstream ROPs, we show ROPGEFs do not act strictly redundant, confirming results from root hair initiation and providing additional evidence that multiple signalling pathways are required for pollen germination and that ROPGEFs might be essential for bringing specificity to these signals.

      Major comments:

      1. Only one GEF11 mutant line, gef11-t1, was analyzed for germination ratio. It is presumptuous to conclude that GEF11 has no function in the pollen germination of Arabidopsis thaliana (line 241- line 242).

      After the initial negative results, we did not focus on GEF11 further. Thus, we fully agree that it is presumptuous to make such strong statements about the role of GEF11 during pollen germination. We generated additional gef11 mutant alleles for this revision plan using CRISPR/Cas9 as no other suitable lines were available. Moreover, we now have additional higher-order mutants available to demonstrate the function of GEF11 during pollen germination. These additional lines were generated and confirmed and are growing right now. Thus, we will be able to implement new results addressing this point timely, allowing us to make a more founded statement about the function of GEF11 (see Response to Reviewer #2).

      Minor comments:

      1. In Figure 2A, pollen germination ratio was not provided for the single mutants gef8-c△3 and gef9-c△

      This is due to the generation process of the CRISPR/Cas9 alleles. These alleles were generated by a construct mutating both genes simultaneously; thus, these mutants are unavailable as single mutant lines. Instead of separating these alleles by outcrossing, we included additional single mutant alleles for both GEFs with a similar deletion. As all these CRISPR/Cas9 mutants have a complete deletion of the GEF-ORF, we are sure about the loss of the according GEF function. Additional alleles account for possible unspecific effects.

      In Figure 3D, the subcellular localization of GEF12GEF8C is fuzzy. Better imaging is needed.

      We agree that the quality of these images is not ideal due to this specific line having less fluorescent signal. We screened for more lines of this construct and already performed more experiments. We will provide better images for this genotype.

      In Figure 3E, it is intriguing that both GEF8-S518A and GEF8-S518D are not associated with the PM in germinating pollen grains. Does it mean that phosphorylation at S518 is not relevant to polar distribution of GEF8?

      We also find this very intriguing as we did not expect this result. However, we interpret it slightly differently in the way that the S518 site is relevant for GEF polarisation, which might be conferred by RLK interaction. We think both mutant forms alter this potential association with RLKs, thus losing polarisation. We will include more imaging experiments of these constructs and additional lines to strengthen our results. Moreover, we generated lines to study these lines' functionality and complementation capacity, which will be included in a revised manuscript.

      T-DNA insertion lines, gef11-t1 and gef12-t1, need to be verified by PCRs in Figure S3D.

      Thanks for pointing this out. This control should be provided, and we will include the verification in the supplement.

      Response to Reviewer #2:

      Like Reviewer #2, we are also very intrigued by the biphasic accumulation of GEFs, as this is an entirely novel feature of this process. Like Reviewer #2, we also interpret this as an exploration and establishment phase, which could help us to understand how the pollen germination site is decided in species without aperture-dependent pollen germination.

      Major comments:

      1. In line 241, the authors conclude that GEF11 has no function in pollen germination. However, it is likely that GEF11 also plays a redundant role as GEF12 does. I recommend the authors check the phenotypes of gef11,gef12 double mutant and gef8,gef9,gef11 triple mutant to confirm that GEF11 has indeed no function. Otherwise, this conclusion should be better rephrased.

      This point is well justified and similar to the comment of Reviewer #1. As stated before, we had to generate additional lines for this. We will analyse an additional gef11 allele, gef8/gef11 and gef9/11 double mutants, and gef9/11/12 triple mutants to address the function of GEF11 in more detail. The conclusions of the original manuscript will, of course, be adjusted according to the new results.

      Although GEF12 is in the cytosol, the strong pollen germination defects in gef8,gef9,gef12 triple mutants do indicate a critical role of GEF12. Is it possible that GEFs could function in the cytosol? The authors can test this possibility by examining the rescuing ability of several constructs that express, for example, GEF12, GEF12(+GEF8C), GEF8(SA), or GEF8(SD) in gef8. The authors may not perform all of these rescue experiments, but some of the mentioned lines are already in hands. They could readily check the phenotypes.

      We thank the Reviewer for this great point. This information is crucial to discriminate the function of the individual GEFs. We have generated new lines expressing some of the mentioned constructs in the gef8 background to address this. We now have lines that complement gef8 with GEF12, GEF12GEF8C, GEF8S518A, GEF8S518D, and GEF8ΔC. We are currently performing experiments which determine the functionality of these constructs, which will allow us to make more conclusive statements about the function of GEFs in the cytosol and how important the PRONE domain alone, or the membrane attachment of GEFs, is for their function.

      The authors conclude that the C-terminus of GEF8 and GEF9 is necessary and sufficient for membrane localization because GEF8/9C can target GEF12 PRONE domain to the membrane. It is intriguing whether the C-terminus alone could confer membrane targeting ability. Currently, it is not fully understood how GEFs localize to the membrane. Examining the localization of GEF8/9C itself would help clarify this and improve our understanding of GEF regulation. Alternatively, the authors may discuss evidence that supports or disagrees with this possibility.

      This is a good suggestion by the reviewer and indeed intriguing if the C-Terminus alone could confer membrane attachment. Meanwhile, we obtained plants expressing such constructs, showing that the C-terminus alone is insufficient for membrane attachment. This is not surprising, as these domains are largely disordered, and we suspect that the context of an adjacent PRONE domain is required to carry out this function. We will include our new results in the revised manuscript.

      Minor comments:

      1. The N- and C-terminus of GEF8 are predicted to inhibit complex formation. How is the prediction performed? Do the authors use monomer prediction or multimer prediction? Alphafold2 has a low accuracy in predicting non-conserved regions. How confident are the predicted inhibitory contacts?

      We used multimer-prediction of Alphafold2 for the shown structures. However, we fully agree that the predicted structures of Alphafold have low accuracy in that regard, especially for disordered domains like this. We will provide confidence models and predicted aligned error (PAE) plots for this structure. Additionally, we will put our conclusions in a better perspective of these structure confidences and tone down our interpretations of this section.

      Localization of ROPs and calcium reporter in Figure 4 appears to be variable. It would help clarify the specific effects on each reporter if the authors present these data more quantitatively.

      We agree with the reviewer that some of the observations are variable. We will provide the data more quantitatively, including overviews of which percentage we observed the described phenomena and a more quantitative analysis of the strength and timing of signal accumulation (see also Response to Reviewer #3).

      Response to Reviewer #3:

      Major points:

      1. One of my major points is that the manuscript is now mainly based on the observations of individual pollen grains. These are then subjected to well-performed image analysis approaches but still represent somewhat anecdotal evidence (Fig 1A, B, Fig 3C-E, etc). The analysis and (numerical) presentation of a more robust data sample (which I presume the authors have acquired) would strengthen the ms considerably. This goes beyond the Figs - e.g. in l. 164-165 authors state rather vaguely, "we observed that mCit-GEF8 and mCit-GEF9 accumulated at a defined region in the cell periphery, which strongly correlated with the future germination site." Here, I would appreciate the data showing the actual correlation, if every germinated pollen grain displays GEF8/9 accumulation, whether there is a population of pollen grains showing the GEF8/9 transient but not germinating, etc...

      We very much appreciate the reviewer's comment, as this version of the manuscript indeed seems like we made our conclusions based on observations made from individual pollen. However, this is not the case. As the reviewer suspected, more data is available but not included in the manuscript. We have multiple observations for each of the shown constructs and only show a representative one. Furthermore, we imaged more pollen germination events of lines that showed variability and included additional lines for some constructs. We will provide a more quantitative analysis of the results to better represent the variability of the individual constructs, and we will adjust the manuscript accordingly (see comment 2).

      Where the authors analyse multiple cells, we are still missing some info - e.g. it is not stated what the error bars in Fig 1C, D represents (SD, SEM, CI?), size of the sample, etc. In any case, it is evident that there is quite substantial variability in the data, which is understandable. Maybe the authors can plot the individual profile lines along the average? Plus, GEF9 seem to have the maximum pre-germination localisation at -5 min rather than -9 min.

      We agree with the Reviewer that information is missing or not obviously stated. We will correct this for the revised manuscript. Moreover, we agree that the suggested way of showing the data would provide more information and allow a better representation of the results and their variability. This can be seen in the reviewer's interpretation of the results of GEF9. In this case, we see some variability in the timing of GEF9 accumulation, leading to the peak maximum shift. In a revised manuscript, we will, as suggested, show the data as individual lines, providing a better representation of the data. Moreover, we will include such representations for other used constructs to provide a general, more quantitative data analysis (see comment 1).

      I know it is very challenging, but the ms would be much stronger with the in vivo imaging of pollen germination on stigmatic papillae (i) GEF8/9 in wt, (ii) gef8/9 double mutant. This would bring crucial data about the role of the GEF polar domain and its functional relation to pollination.

      This would indeed be great to see. We put an effort into establishing such in vivo imaging experiments with our fluorescent markers. However, we cannot image these events in an in vivo setup (at least with our resources). This has two reasons: 1. The events are very fast and limited to a small region at the pollen-papilla contact side, which we have issues resolving optically and timely. 2. The used marker lines only have a low fluorescent level due to the native promoter, and stronger expression would lead to overexpression artefacts. In vitro, it is difficult to see the observed signal accumulation. In the in vivo situation, we are facing additional diffraction of the papilla cells, which would make the observation of GEF accumulation impossible with our microscopes.

      The phylogeny presented in Fig S1 is only rudimental and not very interesting. Given the author's results, I would love to see if GEF8/9 orthologs also exist in species with defined pollen apertures (where establishing a dynamic site makes little sense). The authors touch on this (L409-411), but it would deserve better analysis and discussion.

      We agree with the reviewer that studying GEF function/accumulation in species with aperture-dependent germination would be interesting. However, we can not conclude functional orthologs in other species based on phylogeny. Such phylogenetic analyses were done, for example, by Kim et al. (BMC Plant Biology, 2020, doi: 10.1186/s12870-020-2298-5). The issue is that all Arabidopsis pollen-expressed GEFs form a closed phylogenetic group without allowing the interpretation of which rice homolog is the functional ortholog of the respective Arabidopsis GEF (this is the same for maize). Thus, such phylogenetic analyses are not conclusive, and they would require experimental data to prove orthology. However, we agree that this point can be interpreted and discussed better, and we will include this in the revised manuscript.

      I am not entirely convinced by the authors' interpretation of rather strange S518 mutation data. Could S518A mutation affect overall GEF8 structure/stability?

      We were also suspicious about these results, as they were unexpected (see also Response to Reviewer #1). To confirm these results, we made additional lines for these constructs, double-checked that the constructs were correct and made more observations for both GEF8S18A and GEF8S18D. Additionally, we started investigating the functionality of these constructs and have this data available timely. Preliminary results suggest that the constructs are partial to fully functional compared to the WT GEF8, arguing against these mutations' effect on structure or stability. We will include more data for these constructs in a revised manuscript to allow a more conclusive interpretation of these unexpected observations.

      Although the authors cannot observe the localisation of ROPs in the plasma membrane, they see the apparent accumulation of active ROP marker CRIB4 there - implying that ROPs must localise to the pollen PM at the germination site. This discrepancy should be solved or at least discussed more.

      The reviewer is correct in that we cannot observe ROP accumulation but rather the accumulation of ROP activity (as seen by CRIB4). This is in line with the observation made by Xiang et al. (2023, Plant Physiology, doi: 10.1093/plphys/kiad196), which also cannot find ROP accumulation. We are convinced that ROPs are present at the plasma membrane of the pollen germination site, but no accumulation is observable. We believe this is due to a high mobility of ROPs and that no accumulation is required, as only a few ROPs are sufficient to activate downstream signals. We will discuss these results in more detail in a revised manuscript to better explain the observed discrepancy.

      Given that calcium oscillates very rapidly in pollen and pollen tubes (with frequency ~6-20s), the profound, long-term changes in calcium levels reported by the authors can hardly be referred to as oscillations. The phenomenon observed should again be analysed using a bigger sample.

      We agree that the terminology is not good, as it suggests similarities to the oscillations found in pollen tubes. Thus, we will change the revised manuscript and refer to the changes in Ca2+ levels as “elevations”. Moreover, we will provide a more quantitative analysis and a bigger sample size, as stated in Response to Reviewer #2.

      Minor points:

      1. In Fig 1F, GEF12 also seems to be polarly localised to the future site.

      The chosen sample is not ideal, as it looks like GEF12 would also slightly accumulate. However, as seen in the quantification of this cell, GEF12 does not significantly accumulate at the pollen germination site, and we never observed any accumulation of GEF12 that is comparable to GEF8 or GEF9. We will include another sample of this colocalisation in the revised manuscript to avoid misinterpretation of the data.

      It is difficult to make any assumptions based on the AlphaFold2 predictions without showing their confidence assessments (e.g., PAE plots). The authors state this themselves in the discussion (L. 447-449).

      As the Response to Reviewer #2 stated, we will include structures with confidence values and PAE plots in the supplement. We additionally tone down our interpretation of these structure predictions to make clear that these structures should be interpreted carefully.

      On one hand the authors repeatedly state that pollen GEFs do act in a redundant manner (and provide some evidence for it), on the other hand the absence of an in vivo phenotype for single and double knockout lines and only mild phenotype for a triple ko line does suggest a level of redundancy. This should be rephrased.

      We agree that this is not clearly phrased. In a revised version, we will change the manuscript to indicate which type and level of redundancy are described. We will discriminate between genetic redundancy, as seen in the mild in vivo effects, and non-redundant molecular function, as observed by protein localisation.

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      Referee #3

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      This manuscript investigates the role of PRONE ROP GEFS in germinating Arabidopsis pollen. Given that the molecular mechanisms underlying cellular polarisation in pollen germinating pollen grains are still largely unknown (as opposed to the tip growth of elongating pollen tubes), this manuscript deals with an important topic. Moreover, it builds on the excellent previous research from the lead author, which uncovered ROP GEFs as principal polarisation players during root hair initiation. Here, the authors found that out of five pollen-expressed GEFS, two (GEF8 and 9) mark a future germination site with remarkable spatiotemporal dynamics. Using the genetic tools, GEF8 and 9 were shown to be important for pollen germination in vitro and participate in germination in vivo. Generally, this is an exciting topic, and I quite enjoyed reading the manuscript. However, there are several aspects of the work, which - when addressed - would significantly improve the overall message presented by the authors.

      Major points

      1. One of my major points is that the manuscript is now mainly based on the observations of individual pollen grains. These are then subjected to well-performed image analysis approaches but still represent somewhat anecdotal evidence (Fig 1A, B, Fig 3C-E, etc). The analysis and (numerical) presentation of a more robust data sample (which I presume the authors have acquired) would strengthen the ms considerably. This goes beyond the Figs - e.g. in l. 164-165 authors state rather vaguely, "we observed that mCit-GEF8 and mCit-GEF9 accumulated at a defined region in the cell periphery, which strongly correlated with the future germination site." Here, I would appreciate the data showing the actual correlation, if every germinated pollen grain displays GEF8/9 accumulation, whether there is a population of pollen grains showing the GEF8/9 transient but not germinating, etc...
      2. Where the authors analyse multiple cells, we are still missing some info - e.g. it is not stated what the error bars in Fig 1C, D represents (SD, SEM, CI?), size of the sample, etc. In any case, it is evident that there is quite substantial variability in the data, which is understandable. Maybe the authors can plot the individual profile lines along the average? Plus, GEF9 seem to have the maximum pre-germination localisation at -5 min rather than -9 min.
      3. I know it is very challenging, but the ms would be much stronger with the in vivo imaging of pollen germination on stigmatic papillae (i) GEF8/9 in wt, (ii) gef8/9 double mutant. This would bring crucial data about the role of the GEF polar domain and its functional relation to pollination.
      4. The phylogeny presented in Fig S1 is only rudimental and not very interesting. Given the author's results, I would love to see if GEF8/9 orthologs also exist in species with defined pollen apertures (where establishing a dynamic site makes little sense). The authors touch on this (L409-411), but it would deserve better analysis and discussion.
      5. I am not entirely convinced by the authors' interpretation of rather strange S518 mutation data. Could S518A mutation affect overall GEF8 structure/stability?
      6. Although the authors cannot observe the localisation of ROPs in the plasma membrane, they see the apparent accumulation of active ROP marker CRIB4 there - implying that ROPs must localise to the pollen PM at the germination site. This discrepancy should be solved or at least discussed more.
      7. Given that calcium oscillates very rapidly in pollen and pollen tubes (with frequency ~6-20s), the profound, long-term changes in calcium levels reported by the authors can hardly be referred to as oscillations. The phenomenon observed should again be analysed using a bigger sample.

      Minor points

      1. In Fig 1F, GEF12 also seems to be polarly localised to the future site.
      2. It is difficult to make any assumptions based on the AlphaFold2 predictions without showing their confidence assessments (e.g., PAE plots). The authors state this themselves in the discussion (L. 447-449).
      3. On one hand the authors repeatedly state that pollen GEFs do act in a redundant manner (and provide some evidence for it), on the other hand the absence of an in vivo phenotype for single and double knockout lines and only mild phenotype for a triple ko line does suggest a level of redundancy. This should be rephrased.

      Significance

      General assessment

      I believe that both strenghts and limitations are evident form the list above. I feel this a study with great potential, which can be improved by textual ammendments and by several additional experiments that do not require the generation of new genetic material.

      Advance

      This ms builds on the results obtained previously by the lead author and does advance the knowledge of the field of plant cell polarity substantially.

      Audience

      The ms is targeted for the basic research audience, particularly for plant scientists.

      Expertise of the reviewer

      Pollen biology, membrane trafficking, phylogenetic analyses, protein biochemistry.

    1. Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary

      The study investigated whether memory retrieval followed soon by extinction training results in a short-term memory deficit when tested - with a reinstatement test that results in recovery from extinction - soon after extinction training. Experiment 1 documents this phenomenon using a between-subjects design. Experiment 2 used a within-subject control and saw that the effect was also observed in a control condition. In addition, it also revealed that if testing is conducted 6 hours after extinction, there is no effect of retrieval prior to extinction as there is recovery from extinction independently of retrieval prior to extinction. A third group also revealed that retrieval followed by extinction attenuates reinstatement when the test is conducted 24 hours later, consistent with previous literature. Finally, Experiment 3 used continuous theta-burst stimulation of the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex and assessed whether inhibition of that region (vs a control region) reversed the short-term effect revealed in Experiments 1 and 2. The results of the control groups in Experiment 3 replicated the previous findings (short-term effect), and the experimental group revealed that these can be reversed by inhibition of the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex.

      Strengths

      The work is performed using standard procedures (fear conditioning and continuous theta-burst stimulation) and there is some justification for the sample sizes. The results replicate previous findings - some of which have been difficult to replicate and this needs to be acknowledged - and suggest that the effect can also be observed in a short-term reinstatement test.

      The study establishes links between memory reconsolidation and retrieval-induced forgetting (or memory suppression) literature. The explanations that have been developed for these are distinct and the current results integrate these, by revealing that the DLPFC activity involved in retrieval-extinction short-term effect. There is thus some novelty in the present results, but numerous questions remain unaddressed.

      Weakness

      The fear acquisition data is converted to a differential fear SCR and this is what is analysed (early vs late). However, the figure shows the raw SCR values for CS+ and CS- and therefore it is unclear whether the acquisition was successful (despite there being an "early" vs "late" effect - no descriptives are provided).

      In Experiment 1 (Test results) it is unclear whether the main conclusion stems from a comparison of the test data relative to the last extinction trial ("we defined the fear recovery index as the SCR difference between the first test trial and the last extinction trial for a specific CS") or the difference relative to the CS- ("differential fear recovery index between CS+ and CS-"). It would help the reader assess the data if Figure 1e presents all the indexes (both CS+ and CS-). In addition, there is one sentence that I could not understand "there is no statistical difference between the differential fear recovery indexes between CS+ in the reminder and no reminder groups (P=0.048)". The p-value suggests that there is a difference, yet it is not clear what is being compared here. Critically, any index taken as a difference relative to the CS- can indicate recovery of fear to the CS+ or absence of discrimination relative to the CS-, so ideally the authors would want to directly compare responses to the CS+ in the reminder and no-reminder groups. The latter issue is particularly relevant in Experiment 2, in which the CS- seems to vary between groups during the test and this can obscure the interpretation of the result.

      In Experiment 1, the findings suggest that there is a benefit of retrieval followed by extinction in a short-term reinstatement test. In Experiment 2, the same effect is observed on a cue that did not undergo retrieval before extinction (CS2+), a result that is interpreted as resulting from cue-independence, rather than a failure to replicate in a within-subjects design the observations of Experiment 1 (between-subjects). Although retrieval-induced forgetting is cue-independent (the effect on items that are suppressed [Rp-] can be observed with an independent probe), it is not clear that the current findings are similar. Here, both cues have been extinguished and therefore been equally exposed during the critical stage.

      The findings in Experiment 2 suggest that the amnesia reported in Experiment 1 is transient, in that no effect is observed when the test is delayed by 6 hours. The phenomena whereby reactivated memories transition to extinguished memories as a function of the amount of exposure (or number of trials) is completely different from the phenomena observed here. In the former, the manipulation has to do with the number of trials (or the total amount of time) that the cues are exposed to. In the current study, the authors did not manipulate the number of trials but instead the retention interval between extinction and test. The finding reported here is closer to a "Kamin effect", that is the forgetting of learned information which is observed with intervals of intermediate length (Baum, 1968). Because the Kamin effect has been inferred to result from retrieval failure, it is unclear how this can be explained here. There needs to be much more clarity on the explanations to substantiate the conclusions.

      There are many results (Ryan et al., 2015) that challenge the framework that the authors base their predictions on (consolidation and reconsolidation theory), therefore these need to be acknowledged. Similarly, there are reports that failed to observe the retrieval-extinction phenomenon (Chalkia et al., 2020), and the work presented here is written as if the phenomenon under consideration is robust and replicable. This needs to be acknowledged.

      The parallels between the current findings and the memory suppression literature are speculated in the general discussion, and there is the conclusion that "the retrieval-extinction procedure might facilitate a spontaneous memory suppression process". Because one of the basic tenets of the memory suppression literature is that it reflects an "active suppression" process, there is no reason to believe that in the current paradigm, the same phenomenon is in place, but instead, it is "automatic". In other words, the conclusions make strong parallels with the memory suppression (and cognitive control) literature, yet the phenomena that they observed are thought to be passive (or spontaneous/automatic).<br /> Ultimately, it is unclear why 10 mins between the reminder and extinction learning will "automatically" suppress fear memories. Further down in the discussion, it is argued that "For example, in the well-known retrieval-induced forgetting (RIF) phenomenon, the recall of a stored memory can impair the retention of related long-term memory and this forgetting effect emerges as early as 20 minutes after the retrieval procedure, suggesting memory suppression or inhibition can occur in a more spontaneous and automatic manner". I did not follow with the time delay between manipulation and test (20 mins) would speak about whether the process is controlled or automatic.

      Among the many conclusions, one is that the current study uncovers the "mechanism" underlying the short-term effects of retrieval extinction. There is little in the current report that uncovers the mechanism, even in the most psychological sense of the mechanism, so this needs to be clarified. The same applies to the use of "adaptive".

      Whilst I could access the data on the OFS site, I could not make sense of the Matlab files as there is no signposting indicating what data is being shown in the files. Thus, as it stands, there is no way of independently replicating the analyses reported.

      The supplemental material shows figures with all participants, but only some statistical analyses are provided, and sometimes these are different from those reported in the main manuscript. For example, the test data in Experiment 1 is analysed with a two-way ANOVA with the main effects of group (reminder vs no-reminder) and time (last trial of extinction vs first trial of the test) in the main report. The analyses with all participants in the sup mat used a mixed two-way ANOVA with a group (reminder vs no reminder) and CS (CS+ vs CS-). This makes it difficult to assess the robustness of the results when including all participants. In addition, in the supplementary materials, there are no figures and analyses for Experiment 3.

      One of the overarching conclusions is that the "mechanisms" underlying reconsolidation (long term) and memory suppression (short term) phenomena are distinct, but memory suppression phenomena can also be observed after a 7-day retention interval (Storm et al., 2012), which then questions the conclusions achieved by the current study.

      References:

      Baum, M. (1968). Reversal learning of an avoidance response and the Kamin effect. Journal of Comparative and Physiological Psychology, 66(2), 495.<br /> Chalkia, A., Schroyens, N., Leng, L., Vanhasbroeck, N., Zenses, A. K., Van Oudenhove, L., & Beckers, T. (2020). No persistent attenuation of fear memories in humans: A registered replication of the reactivation-extinction effect. Cortex, 129, 496-509.<br /> Ryan, T. J., Roy, D. S., Pignatelli, M., Arons, A., & Tonegawa, S. (2015). Engram cells retain memory under retrograde amnesia. Science, 348(6238), 1007-1013.<br /> Storm, B. C., Bjork, E. L., & Bjork, R. A. (2012). On the durability of retrieval-induced forgetting. Journal of Cognitive Psychology, 24(5), 617-629.

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      Reply to the reviewers

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      Reply to the Reviewers

      We want to thank the three reviewers for their invaluable and constructive feedback. We respond to each comment individually, describing how we plan to address them in our revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #1

      1. Given the emphasis on super-resolution imaging deep inside a sample, we were surprised to see no mention of other forms of structured illumination that allow super-resolution imaging in samples thicker than a single cell. These include the 'spot-scanning' implementations of SIM that offer better imaging at depth by virtue of pinholes, and include MSIM, iSIM, and rescan confocal technologies. The two-photon / AO implementation of iSIM seems particularly germane, e.g. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28628128/ Please consider citing these works, as they help place the existing work into context.

      Response:

      We want to thank reviewer #1 for the good point. To address this comment, we plan to add to the discussion section a description of these super resolution techniques, together with other SIM methods, explaining how they compare to our approach.

      1. As we're sure the authors appreciate, besides aberrations, a major additional obstacle to 3D SIM in thick tissues is the presence of out-of-focus background. Indeed, this point was mentioned by Gustafsson in his classic 2008 paper on 3D SIM (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18326650/): 'The application area of three-dimensional structured illumination microscopy overlaps with that of confocal microscopy, but the two techniques have different and complementary strengths. Structured illumination microscopy offers higher effective lateral resolution, because it concentrates much of the excitation light at the very highest illumination angles, which are most effective for encoding high-resolution information into the observed data, whereas confocal microscopy spreads out its illumination light more or-less uniformly over all available angles to form a focused beam. For very thick and compactly fluorescent samples, however, confocal microscopy has an advantage in that its pinhole removes out-of focus light physically. Structured illumination microscopy is quite effective at removing out-of-focus light computationally, because it is not subject to the missing-cone problem, but computational removal leaves behind the associated shot noise. Therefore confocal microscopy may be preferable on very thick and dense samples, for which the in-focus information in a conventional microscope image would be overwhelmed by out-of-focus light, whereas structured illumination microscopy may be superior in a regime of thinner or sparser samples.' This point is not mentioned at all in the manuscript, yet we are certain it is at least partially responsible for the residual image artifacts the authors mention. Please discuss the problem of out of focus light on 3D samples, particularly with an eye to the 'spot-scanning' papers mentioned above.

      Response:

      We appreciate this significant obstacle and we want to thank Reviewer #1 for emphasising its importance. To address the comment, we plan to add a discussion of the significance of out-of-focus light to SIM imaging to the introduction, results, and discussion sections of the manuscript.

      1. The authors use a water dipping lens, yet they image into samples that are mounted on coverslips, i.e. they use a dipping lens to image through a coverslip:

      This almost certainly introduces spherical aberration, which the authors seem to observe: see attached pdf for reference

      We find this troubling, as it seems that in the process of building their setup, the authors have made a choice of objective lens that introduces aberrations - that they later correct. At the very least, this point needs to be acknowledged in the manuscript (or please correct us if we're wrong) - as it renders the data in Figs. 3-4 somewhat less compelling than if the authors used an objective lens that allowed correction through a coverglass, e.g. a water dipping lens with a correction collar. In other words, in the process of building their AO setup, the authors have introduced system aberrations that render the comparison with 3D SIM somewhat unfair. Ideally the authors would show a comparison with an objective lens that can image through a glass coverslip.

      Response:

      We want to thank Reviewer #1 for raising this point, which we did not describe clearly enough, leading to confusion. We should have made it clearer that we used a water dipping/immersion objective lens with a correction collar which extends from no coverslip (dipping) up to well beyond a standard #1.5 (170 um thick) coverslip. We adjusted this collar before each image acquisition session, to ensure that the system is optimised for each experiment individually and that the spherical aberrations are minimal before any DM-based correction. We plan to elaborate and emphasise this point in several places in the revised manuscript, including in the figure legends, materials and methods and results sections, to avoid any ambiguity and confusion about the use of the correction collar and this particular water immersion/dipping objective lens.

      1. The authors tend to include numbers for resolution without statistics. This renders the comparisons meaningless in my opinion; ideally every number would have a mean and error bar associated with it. We have included specific examples in the minor comments below.

      Response:

      This is a good point, which we address below, in three minor comments. In summary, to address this comment, we plan to include statistical information in the revised manuscript.

      1. In Fig. 5, after the 'multipoint AO SIM', the SNR in some regions seems to decrease after AO: see attached pdf for reference

      Please comment on this issue.

      Response:

      We want to thank Reviewer #1 for the insightful comment. There are multiple phenomena in effect here, which cause the drop in intensity. The most prominent one is photobleaching, as the AO image stack (right) was acquired after the bypass one (left). To address this comment, we plan to add additional data and to include a brief discussion about this issue and other related points.

      1. Please provide timing costs for the indirect AO methods used in the paper, so the reader understands how this time compares to the time required for taking a 3D SIM stack. In a similar vein, the authors in Lines 213-215, mention a 'disproportionate measurement time' when referring to the time required for AO correction at each plane - providing numbers here would be very useful to a reader, so they can judge for themselves what this means. What is the measurement time, why is it so long, and how does it compare to the time for 3D SIM? It would also be useful to provide a comparison between the time needed for AO correction at each (or two) planes without remote focusing (RF) vs. with RF, so the reader understands the relative temporal contributions of each part of the method. We would suggest, for the data shown in Fig. 5, to report a) the time to acquire the whole stack without AO (3D SIM only); b) the time to acquire the data as shown; c) the time to acquire the AO stack without RF. This would help bolster the case for remote focusing in general; as is we are not sure we buy that this is a capability worth having, at least for the data shown in this paper.

      Response:

      We agree that the timing (and other) costs can be an important consideration, and we want to thank Reviewer #1 for bringing up this good point. To address this issue, we plan to expand our description of the AO methods, also including numbers for the time it takes to perform the different parts. In terms of comparisons, the RF makes no contribution to the timing costs of the aberration correction, a point that we want to make clearer in the results and the methods and materials sections, as the two are independent processes in our approach. Instead, the RF can be compared to standard focusing with a piezo stage, a point which we discuss in the supplementary material. We plan to make this point clearer in the discussion section of the main manuscript, and to emphasise better the advantages of the RF in terms of imaging speed.

      1. Some further discussion on possibly extending the remote focusing range would be helpful. We gather that limitations arose from an older model of the DM being used, due to creep effects. We also gather from the SI that edge effects at the periphery of the DM was also problematic. Are these limitations likely non-issues with modern DMs, and how much range could one reasonably expect to achieve as a result? We are wondering if the 10 um range is a fundamental practical limitation or if in principle it could be extended with commercial DMs.

      Response:

      Regrettably, we were not able to try other DMs on the Deep3DSIM system. However, Jiahe and colleagues show in [1] that similar DM-based remote focusing, even with the same model deformable mirror, can be pushed to 120 um (Strehl ratio >0.8) with a 0.42 NA dry lens (20 mm WD) and close-loop wavefront compensation operation. While this is not directly translatable to high NA 3D-SIM imaging, we expect that with a stable version of the same DM the useable RF range could be easily increased twice or even more. We thank Reviewer #1 for the good comment, which we plan to address by revising the text to make the limitations clearer and by citing relevant studies.

      [1] Cui, J., Turcotte, R., Emptage, N. J., & Booth, M. J. (2021). Extended range and aberration-free autofocusing via remote focusing and sequence-dependent learning. Optics Express, 29(22), 36660-36674.

      Minor comments:

      1. The paper mentions Ephys multiple times, even putting micromanipulators into Fig. 1 - although it is not actually used in this paper. If including in Figure 1, please make it clear that these additional components are aspirational and not actually used in the paper.

      Response:

      Although not shown in the context of this paper, the Deep3DSIM system was built specifically around experiments such as electrophysiology, which can benefit from the upright configuration and the water-dipping-capable objective lens. To address this comment, we plan to clarify the role of the micromanipulators and to update Figure 1 accordingly.

      1. The abstract mentions '3D SIM microscopes', 'microscopes' redundant as the 'm' in 'SIM' stands for 'microscope'.

      Response:

      We accept that “3D SIM microscopes” sounds repetitious and we plan to revise the wording of the abstract to “3D SIM system”.

      1. 'fast optical sectioning', line 42, how can optical sectioning be 'fast'? Do they mean rapid imaging with optical sectinong?

      Response:

      Yes, we meant rapid imaging with optical sectioning. We plan to change the wording to make it less ambiguous.

      1. line 59, 'effective imaging depth may be increased to some extent using silicone immersion objectives', what about water immersion objectives? We would guess these could also be used.

      Response:

      Yes, water immersion objective lenses also fall in the same category and we plan to rephrase this part to state it explicitly.

      1. line 65 - evidence for 'water-dipping objectives are more sensitive to aberrations' ? Please provide citation or remove. They are certainly more prone to aberrations if used with a coverslip as done here.

      Response:

      The refractive index (RI) of cells and tissues [1] is closer to the RI of silicone oil (~1.4) than it is to water (~1.33). Therefore, because of the larger difference in RI, imaging with a water-dipping objective lens is more prone to aberrations from RI mismatch. We plan to rephrase this argument to make it clearer.

      [1] Jacques, S. L. (2013). Optical properties of biological tissues: a review. Physics in Medicine & Biology, 58(11), R37.

      1. 'fast z stacks' is mentioned in line 103. How fast is fast?

      Response:

      The speed would depend on the way Z-stacks are being acquired. For example, acquisitions with two channels would be at least twice as fast, because of the ability to do simultaneous imaging on the Deep3DSIM system. Likewise, experiments that can benefit from the remote focusing can be several times faster than using a Z piezo stage, and this point is discussed in the supplementary material (section “Step response”). Finally, thanks to the electronic design of the imaging system, orchestrating everything via digital logic (e.g. TTL) signals, and thanks to the elaborate control software, we can ensure that all image acquisitions are carried out as quickly as possible, operating near the limit of the underlying hardware devices. We plan to explain these points in a clear way in the discussion section, and we plan to provide more numbers in the supplementary material.

      1. line 116 'we imaged 100 nm diameter green fluorescent beads'. Deposited on glass? Given that this paper is about imaging deep this detail seems worth specifying in the main text.

      Response:

      Yes, in this case the beads were deposited on glass. We plan to include this detail in the description of the experiment.

      1. lines 127-130, when describing changes in the bead shape with numbers for the FWHM, please provide statistics - quoting single numbers for comparison is almost useless and we cannot conclude that there is a meaningful improvement without statistics.

      Response:

      We agree with this comment. We plan to include statistical information for all the FWHM numbers.

      1. In the same vein, how can we understand that remote focus actually improves the axial FWHM of the widefield bead? Is this result repeatable, or it just noise?

      Response:

      The lower axial FWHM with remote focusing is likely caused by data fitting or quantification error. Together with the inclusion of statistical information, we plan to review all the resolution values and to ensure that they are accurate and sensible.

      1. line 155, 'Because of the high spatial information...' -> 'Because of the high resolution spatial information...'

      Response:

      We agree with this comment. To address it, we plan to rephase this part.

      1. When quoting estimated resolution #s from microtubules (lines 158-163) similarly please provide statistics as for beads.

      Response:

      We agree with this comment. To address it, we plan to include statistical information for the resolution values from microtubules.

      1. It seems worth mentioning the mechanism of AO correction (i.e. indirect sensing) in the main body of the text, not just the methods.

      Response:

      We agree with this comment. To address it, we plan to describe briefly the aberration correction method in the introduction or the results section.

      1. How long do the AO corrections take for the datasets in the paper?

      Response:

      The duration of the aberration correction routines is directly proportional to the number of Zernike modes, the number of iterations, the exposure time of the camera, and other parameters. In our experiments, it was usually in the order of tens of seconds. To address this comment, and in line with the sixth major comment, we plan to include more details about the timing of the different parts of the AO methods.

      1. Were the datasets in Fig. 2-4 acquired with remote focusing, or in conventional z stack mode? Please clarify this point in the main text and the figure captions.

      Response:

      The only data acquired with RF in Fig. 2-4 are one bead in Fig. 2A and another bead in Fig. 2B, both labelled accordingly. We plan to make it clearer in the text that the rest of Figure 2, as well as Figures 3 and 4, were acquired with the piezo Z stage.

      1. It would be helpful when showing z projections in Figs. 3-5 to indicate the direction of increasing depth (we assume this is 'down' due to the upright setup, but this would be good to clarify)

      Response:

      The direction is indicated by the arrows labelled with ‘Z’. We plan to clarify this in the figure captions.

      1. line 174, 'showed significant improvements in both intensity and contrast after reconstruction' - we see the improvements in contrast and resolution, it is harder to appreciate improvements in intensity. Perhaps if the authors showed some line profiles or otherwise quantified intensity this would be easier to appreciate.

      Response:

      We agree with this comment. To address it, we plan to change Figure 3 to illustrate the improvement in intensity, likely with line profiles, as suggested by the reviewer.

      1. line 195 'reduced artefacts' due to AO. We would agree with this statement - the benefit from AO is obvious, and yet there are still artefacts. If the authors could clarify what these (residual) artefacts are, and their cause (out of focus light, uncorrected residual aberrations, etc) this would be helpful for a reader that is not used to looking at 3D SIM images.

      Response:

      We agree with this comment. To address it, we plan to explain this point in both the results and the discussion sections.

      1. Line 197, 'expected overall structure', please clarify what is expected about the structure and why.

      Response:

      We agree with this comment. To address it, we plan to describe better the Canoe (Cno) protein, including an explanation of its expression pattern, which is the honeycomb-like structure observed in the images.

      1. Line 199, what is a 'pseudo structure'?

      Response:

      We used this expression to refer to unclear (e.g. dim, fuzzy) structures. We plan to improve the wording of that part of the results section.

      1. Fig. 4B, 'a resolution of ~200 nm is retained at depth', please clarify how this estimate was obtained, ideally with statistics.

      Response:

      We agree with this comment. To address it, we plan to clarify this point in the results section, including statistical information.

      1. Fig. 4D, please comment on the unphysical negative valued intensities in Fig. 4D, ideally explaining their presence in the caption. It would also be helpful to highlight where in the figure these plots arise, so the reader can visually follow along.

      Response:

      We agree with this comment. To address it, we plan to explain how negative intensities arise in SIM reconstruction, often a result of spherical aberrations, and we plan to indicate where the line profile in Figure 4D comes from.

      1. Line 245, 'rapid mitosis'. What does rapid mean, i.e. please provide the expected timescale for mitosis.

      Response:

      The mitotic cycles at this developmental stage are short, e.g. 5 minutes per mitosis, compared to those of somatic cells where it takes several hours. We plan to include this information in the main text.

      1. For the data in Fig. 6, was remote refocusing necessary?

      Response:

      Yes, it was necessary because the point of Figure 6 is to demonstrate the combination of remote focusing and SIM super-resolution in live samples. Drosophila embryos are a very good sample for this kind of demonstration, because they are often subject to micromanipulation (e.g. injection and electrophysiology), and these are the kind of experiments that can benefit greatly from the optical axial scanning of the remote focusing, where the sample can remain stationary. However, there is nothing preventing the imaging of this kind of sample with a piezo Z stage or with some other kind of mechanical actuator. In this sense, the remote focusing is not strictly necessary but still much more convenient in some applications. We plan to make this point clearer in the discussion section.

      1. What is the evidence for 'reduced residual aberrations', was a comparative stack taken without AO? In general we feel that the results shown in Fig. 6 would be stronger if there were comparative results shown without AO (or remote focusing).

      Response:

      We agree with this comment. In general, it is difficult to make direct comparisons (e.g. as in Figures 3-5) with live samples, because of the dynamic character of the samples, where it is often impossible to capture the same scene more than once. To address this comment, we plan to revise the wording of the relevant part of the results section, to ensure that the data in Figure 6 is properly described.

      1. Line 350, 'incorporation of denoising algorithms' - citations would be helpful here.

      Response:

      We agree with this comment. To address it, we plan to add references to the relevant statement, showing examples of denoising in 3D-SIM imaging and reconstruction.

      1. Line 411, 'All three were further developed and improved' - vague, how so?

      Response:

      A detailed breakdown of all the changes is available on the respective software repositories. We also plan to add a summary in the supplementary material.

      1. Sensorless AO description; how many Zernike modes were corrected?

      Response:

      We usually corrected 8 modes: Z5 to Z11 and Z22, using Noll indexing. We plan to add a table to the supplementary material, describing which modes were corrected for each dataset.

      1. Multi-position aberration correction. Was the assumption of linearity in the Zernike correction verified or met? Why is this a reasonable assumption?

      Response:

      By their very definition, some aberrations, such as defocus and spherical aberrations, change linearly with depth. Others are also proportional to the imaging depth, and first-order approximation (i.e. straight line) is the most sensible for just two correction points, as is the case with the dataset presented in Figure 5. We plan to explain this point better in the results section.

      1. Fig. S1B is not useful; if the idea is to give a visual impression of the setup, we would recommend providing more photos with approximate distances indicated so that the reader has a sense of the scale of the setup. As is - it looks like a photograph of some generic optical setup.

      Response:

      We agree with this comment. To address it, we plan on including more photos in the supplementary material, to give a better sense of the scale.

      1. SI pattern generation - 'the maximum achievable reconstruction resolution was only slightly reduced to about 95% of the theoretical maximum'. We don't understand this sentence, as the resolution obtained on the 100 nm beads is considerably worse than 95% of the theoretical maximum. Or do the authors mean 95% of the theoretical maximum given their pitch size of 317 nm for green and 367 nm for red?

      Response:

      Limiting the stripe width to about 90% of what is achievable leads to a reduction of the theoretical maximum resolution to 95% of what it could be. We plan to rephrase this part to make it clearer.

      1. SI Deformable mirror calibration 'spanning the range [0.1, 0.9]' - what are the units here?

      Response:

      These are normalised control amplitudes, i.e. [10%, 90%], which means that they are unitless. We plan to explain this in a clearer way.

      1. What are the units in Fig. S5C, S5D?

      Response:

      Errors are in radians, defined by the calibration interferometric wavefront sensor. We plan on updating the figure to include this information.

      1. It would be useful to define 'warmup' also in the caption of SI Fig. S6A.

      Response:

      We agree with this comment. We plan to change the caption of Figure S6A to clarify this point.

      1. SI Remote Focusing, 'four offsets, {-5 mm, -2.5 mm, 2.5 mm, 5 mm}...' are the units mm or um?

      Response:

      The units are supposed to be um (micrometres). We plan on fixing this error.

      1. '...whereas that of the 10 beads was...' here, do the authors mean the position of the beads derived from the movement of the piezo stage, as opposed to the remote focusing?

      Response:

      This is the average standard deviation between the 10 different beads, all from volumes acquired with remote focusing. We plan on rephrasing this part to make it clearer.

      1. The authors refer to the 'results from Chapter 3.2'. What are they talking about? Do they mean a supplementary figure, or earlier supplementary results? In general, we found the discussion in this paragraph difficult to follow.

      Response:

      This is a remnant from an earlier version of the document which used numbered sectioning. Chapter 3.2 is referring to the section titled “Characterisation of drift and temperature effects”. We plan on revising this paragraph to make it clearer.

      1. Supplementary Fig. 9 seems to be not referred to anywhere in the text.

      Response:

      We agree with this comment. To address this issue, we plan on referring to this figure in the main text.

      1. Since the paper emphasizes 3D SIM, OTFs along the axial direction would also be useful to show, in addition to the lateral OTFs shown in Fig. 2D.

      Response:

      We agree with this comment. To address it, we plan on adding orthogonal views of the OTFs to the supplementary material.

      1. When the sample is moved by the piezo, the axial phase of the 3D-SIM illumination pattern is stable as the sample is scanned through the illumination pattern. When remote focusing is performed, the sample is always stable so the axial phase of the 3D-SIM illumination pattern is presumably changing with remote focusing. Can the authors clarify if the 3D SIM illumination pattern is scanned when remote focusing is applied, or is the intensity pattern stable in z?

      Response:

      Yes, the illumination pattern is scanned. We plan on clarifying how the structured illumination works in the case of remote focusing in the supplementary material.

      1. In Supplementary Fig. 9, primary spherical is referred to twice, both at index 11 and 22. The latter is presumably secondary spherical?

      Response:

      Yes, it is supposed to be secondary spherical aberrations. We plan on fixing this error.

      1. we do not understand the x axis label, in Fig. S4D, is it really [0, 50, 50, 50] as written?

      Response:

      The labels of the x-axis are not well formatted. There are three range of [0, 50] where only the first zero is properly displayed. We will revise this part of the figure to make it clear.

      Reviewer #2

      1. The authors have provided an incomplete description of the structured illumination microscopy (SIM) reconstruction process. It is unclear whether the approach is based on 2D interference SIM configurations or 3D interference patterns. Furthermore, the specific algorithm utilized for image reconstruction has not been elucidated. Elaborating on these aspects is crucial as they significantly influence the interpretation of the resulting data.

      Response:

      We want to thank Reviewer #2 for bringing our attention to the incomplete description of the reconstruction process. Our approach was based on 3D interference patterns and it was carried out using the Gustafsson’s reconstruction techniques as implemented by the softWoRx software, designed for the OMX 3D-SIM microscopes. To address this comment, we plan to revise the manuscript and to include more details about the 3D-SIM reconstruction techniques in the methods and materials section.

      1. The authors have stated that sample-induced aberrations caused by RI inhomogeneities within the specimen is another major reason for causing artifacts generation. Literature has demonstrated that RI inhomogeneities can lead to non-local distortions in the grid pattern, which suggests that applying uniform reconstruction parameters across the entire image may not be viable. Traditional artifact remediation using the classical Wiener method is likely insufficient under these conditions (PMID: 33896197). The existing adaptive optics (AO) approach, which employs a deformable mirror (DM) alongside an sCMOS camera, is inadequate for tackling the issue at hand. Actually the assertion made in the paper that "aberrations change approximately linearly with depth" is seemingly contradicted by simulations referenced in the cited literature (PMID: 33896197). Consequently, it appears that the current methodology might only achieve a partial mitigation of the problems associated with spherical aberration resulting from RI mismatches. It is advisable, therefore, that the authors explicitly acknowledge this limitation in their manuscript to prevent any potential misinterpretation by readers.

      Response:

      We are thankful for the thoughtful comment by Reviewer #2. The focus of our work was not the use of advanced 3D-SIM reconstruction and aberration correction methods; instead, we used standard ones which are not able to deal perfectly with anisoplanitism, i.e. when the aberrations vary laterally. As such, our approach provides an average reconstruction and correction across the field of view. In our particular setup this anisoplanitism was not very significant, but we agree that it could be an issue for optical systems with very wide field of view. To address this good point, we plan on clarifying these potential issues in the results and the discussion sections.

      1. In Figure 2, the use of COS-7 cells, which are known for their relatively thin axial dimension, for the experiments raises an eyebrow. Notably, there are ample instances in existing research where both 2D-SIM and 3D-SIM, without the integration of adaptive optics, have yielded high-quality super-resolution images of structures such as tubulin and the endoplasmic reticulum. In addition, the authors did not present a direct comparison between BP-SIM and AO-SIM here. Without this comparative analysis, it remains ambiguous whether the enhancements in resolution and contrast and the reduction in artifacts can genuinely be attributed to the mitigation of spherical aberration. To clarify this, it would be beneficial for the authors to include side-by-side comparisons of these modalities to demonstrate the specific improvements attributed to AO-SIM.

      Response:

      We are grateful to Reviewer #2 for this helpful comment. In Figure 2, we demonstrate the performance we get out of 3D-SIM in terms of optical resolution. We do not make any statements about the impact of the aberration correction on image quality. Nevertheless, to address this comment, we plan to revise the figure to explain more clearly and explicitly this point.

      1. In Figures 3 and 4, the authors have illustrated the enhancements achieved through the application of AO. However, there is a discernible presence of hammer-stroke and honeycomb artifacts in pre-AO imaged data, which seem to originate from the amplification of the incorrectly moved out-of-focal background in the frequency domain. Various strategies have been previously suggested to address these specific artifacts, encompassing methods like subtracting background noise in the raw images or employing selective frequency spectrum attenuation techniques, such as Notch filtering and High-Fidelity SIM. To facilitate a more comprehensive understanding, I would recommend that the authors incorporate into their study a comparison that includes BP-SIM data that has undergone either background subtraction or frequency spectrum attenuation. This added data would enable a more complete evaluation and comparison regarding the merits and impact of their AO approach.

      Response:

      We thank the reviewer for this excellent suggestion and we agree that a pre-processing step, such as background subtraction or frequency spectrum attenuation, can help with the reduction of artefacts. To address this comment, we will re-analyse our data and apply these techniques, and we will add the data to the manuscript, with an appropriate revision to the text.

      Reviewer #3

      1. There is an overall reference in the manuscript of the novelty possible range of applications of using an upright microscope configuration. Examples mentioned are tissue-based imaging, access to whole-mount specimens for manipulation and electrophysiology. However, authors fail to present any such applications. There is not a single example presented which could not have been obtained with an inverted microscope. Could the authors provide an example where a water-dipping is used. Expanded samples could be one case, since the thickness of the gel makes it difficult to image with an inverted microscope. Another possible example would be to label the extracellular space and do shadow imaging of the tissue (SUSHI PMID: 29474910). ExM might be simpler to do as part of revising the manuscript than SUSHI.

      Response:

      We are thankful to Reviewer #3 for these interesting comments. To address this comment, we will emphasise more clearly that Figure 6 of our manuscript shows a sample that is often part of live imaging experiments that require microinjection and even electrophysiology. Our aim was to show the proof of principle and the potential of such experiments, rather than to carry out real and complex experiments using electrophysiology or microinjection. Regarding providing an example where water-dipping is used, this is already present in the same Figure 6, which we will describe more explicitly and fully in the revised manuscript. The reviewer’s comments on expansion microscopy and SUSHI are interesting, but the primary purpose of our microscope system is to facilitate super resolution live cell imaging experiments. Nevertheless, to address this comment, we will add an explanation of the relevance of our approach to improving deep super resolution imaging of expanded specimens.

      1. On the main text it is described a 5-fold volumetric resolution, which is confusing since authors only mention lateral and axial resolutions. Their measurements correspond to a ~1.6-fold lateral improvement and ~1.7-fold axial improvement. These are however not the 95% of the achievable resolution theoretical maximum, as stated in p7 SI (2 fold increase of 282nm), but only the 80-85%. This point should be rephrased in the manuscript.

      Response:

      We want to thank Reviewer #3 for bringing up this important point. To address it, we plan to make changes to the text, both in the main manuscript and in the supplementary material, to make it clearer what are the resolution improvement that we achieve and what are the limitations to our approach.

      1. [OPTIONAL] p4 and related to figure 2, it would be important to report also measurements of beads with SIM but without AO, just as done for WF. Is there an improvement of using AO on SIM? This is reported for the fixed cells but not for the beads.

      Response:

      We found no significant improvement in resolution when AO was applied to SIM. To address this comment, we plan to add the extra data to Figure 2, demonstrating this point.

      1. Figure 2, it is odd the comparison between WF+/- AO and SIM +/- AO are done using different cellular structures. Since wavelengths used are not the same it is difficult to interpret if there is any improvement of using AO on SIM compared to SIM without AO. Same questions arise as above, Is there an improvement of using AO on SIM?

      Response:

      We agree that the data in Figure 2C and 2D is presented in unusual way. Our intention was not to make a comparison between bypass and AO, but instead to characterise the super-resolution capabilities of the system. We use different channels because doing -/+ AO consecutively leads to noticeable intensity drop due to photobleaching. We are grateful to Reviewer #3 for the valuable comment, which we plan to address by revising Figure 2.

      1. "A significant benefit and uniqueness of the Deep3DSIM design is its upright configuration, whereas commercial SIM systems are built around inverted microscopes and are usually restricted to imaging thin samples, such as cultured cells." (p5) is not correct. The commercial DeepSIM module from CREST Optics can be mounted on an inverted microscope as well as image deep into tissue (seehttps://crestoptics.com/deepsim/ and application notes therein) and be used with essentially any objective. This point should be rephrased in the text.

      Response:

      We want to thank Reviewer #3 for bringing our attention to this error. Of course, we meant commercial 3D-SIM systems, such as GE Healthcare DeltaVision OMX and Nikon N-SIM. To address this issue, we plan to rephrase this part of the results section. Regarding the commercial DeepSIM module from CREST Optics, as far as we can tell, it uses a different method – 2D lattice multi-spot SIM – which comes at the cost of signal loss when sample-induced aberrations are strong. This is very different from our method, which uses a deformable mirror to manipulate the phase information of both the excitation and the emission light at the back-pupil plane of the objective lens, which can theoretically provide 2× resolution enhancement with no signal lost.

      1. Fig 3 reports the improvements of AO on SIM for imaging over 10um in tissue. What are the Zernike modes measured? Or how does the pupil look like before and after correction? It would be also good to report the Fourier amplitudes as done in Fig 2C as a quantitative measure of improvement. It would be good to point out the artifacts observed on the BP SIM image reconstruction (labelled with 3x, fringes are noticeable).

      Response:

      We thank Reviewer #3 for the good suggestions. We plan to add information about the measured Zernike modes to the results section, as well as to add a brief discussion about the noticeable reconstruction artefacts. In terms of pupil and Fourier amplitudes, we plan to change Figure 3 to include all this information or, alternatively, to include it in the supplementary material.

      1. Many key details relating to image acquisition and AO correction are missing for all figures. How is the AO optimization implemented? Is it implemented via a genetic algorithm (progressive optimization of parameters) or using more clever strategies? Not clear if the optimization is implemented using images obtained with flat illumination or after SIM imaging/processing of a given dataset. How long does the AO optimization take? How sensitive to noise is the process? What metric do they use to estimate the sensorless AO correction? On pag12, they say "Fourier domain image metric" for measurements with fine details; otherwise, ISOsense when not high frequencies are present. Could the authors report the formula used to calculate the first metric? What do they consider to be low and high frequencies in this case? Is there a reason why ISOsense is not always used, or is there an automatic way to choose between the two? How many images were acquired for AO correction? Which samples were corrected with ISOsense and which ones with Fourier domain image metric? (see for example the detailed experimental reporting in the Supp Mat from Lin et al Nat Commun 2021).

      Response:

      We are grateful to Reviewer #3 for the extensive list of questions. The optimisation is done via non-linear least square, it uses widefield images, and it is performed before the actual image acquisition, i.e. well before any SIM reconstruction takes place. The methods used for aberration correction are described in the Methods and materials section, and further in the cited literature, e.g. Antonello et al 2020 and Hall et al 2020. ISOsense needs to be manually chosen over the Fourier image metric, and this should be done when large mode biases lead to small changes in the metric value, which is likely to happen when there are little or no sharp features in the images. One of the disadvantages of our implementation of ISOsense is that the structured illumination pattern is continuously exposed over the sample, which leads to photobleaching and phototoxicity. None of the datasets shown in the manuscript use ISOsense. To address all of the questions from this comment, we plan to significantly expand our descriptions of the AO methods, both in the main text and in the supplementary material.

      1. Fig 4. Data presented for larval brain tissue is a very clear example of adding AO to image deep into tissue as the effect at ~130 cannot be understated. Here too, it would be also good to report the Fourier amplitudes as done in Fig 2C as a quantitative measure of improvement and possibly the SNR of reconstructed images. Having a way to quantitatively describe how much better are those images would be great. Also, what are the aberrations corrected? Can the wavefront or Zernike amplitude of the modes be reported? Same as for Fig 3, details about AO correction are missing.

      Response:

      We are grateful to Reviewer #3 for the helpful comment. We will address it by adding the Fourier amplitudes to Figure 4, as suggested, and by reporting the Zernike mode amplitudes of the aberration corrections.

      1. [OPTIONAL] "It is worth noting that aberrations can differ across larger fields, and therefore, after applying an average correction, residual aberrations can still be observed in some regions of the AO-corrected bead images. However, the overall PSF shapes were still dramatically improved with AO compared to the equivalent without AO." This point is very interesting although not result either in the main text or in the SI is presented.

      Response:

      The residual aberrations are present in the right image of Figure 4B, although we did not highlight them specifically. We are thankful to Reviewer #3 for the good suggestion and we plan to implement it by changing Figure 4 to show a few of the beads with residual aberrations.

      1. "As we found that the aberrations change approximately linearly in depth, we could measure the aberration in two planes and calculate the corrections in intermediate planes by interpolation, an approach which we termed "multi-position AO"." This is, personally, one of the major contributions of this work to the community. Unfortunately, it is not reported in detail. Not only for SIM but for imaging with WF or confocal, such linear change for aberrations with depth is not well known. Again, here the details of AO correction and image metrics are missing. To establish that for most thick biological structures 'aberrations change approximately linearly in depth' would be foundational to the widespread use of AO within standard imaging. Would it be possible for the authors to elaborate on this point and present detailed results? What is the error from measuring and correcting more than 2 planes? What is the error from just measuring and AO correcting at the deeper plane, i.e. from a single measurement? Authors could also show a case in which a linear assumption works nicely (or how well it works). For example, comparing an intermediate plane (or a plane beyond) imaged after AO optimization or after coefficient interpolation of the Zernike modes and compare it against correcting directly that plane.

      Response:

      Some aberrations, such as defocus and spherical aberrations, are mathematically defined as varying linearly with depth. The change in other aberrations with depth can also be estimated with a linear model, which is a standard first-order approximation in the case of two datapoints, such as corrections done in Figure 5. It is not possible to do regression analysis with just a single point, so it is impossible to apply our multi-position AO at a single plane. We are grateful to Reviewer #3 for the constructive comment. To address the questions in this comment, we plan to provide a more detailed description of the correction estimation methods to the results section, as well as a discussion on the accuracy of the linear model in the discussion section.

      1. The image of the cos-7 cell in metaphase, for Fig 5 is, however, very disappointing. See Fig 1 of Novak et al Nat Commun 2018 for an example of a single z-plane of a cell in metaphase. Having the possibility to correct for the entire 3D volume, I would expect amazing 3D volumes (movies and/or projections) associated with this imaging which are not presented.

      Response:

      We thank Reviewer #3 for the interesting comment. The example in Novak et al 2018 was acquired with STED microscopy, which is an entirely different imaging method and thus produces different results. Nevertheless, we will revise the discussion of Figure 5 to ensure that the right expectations are set.

      1. In Figure 6, they use AO in remote configuration mode to allow imaging of live specimens. It needs to be clarified if this is an a priori characterization that is then kept fixed while recording in time. The last acquired volume of fig 6A and B have a higher amount of artifacts with respect to time 00:00. Are those artifacts due to lower SNR (maybe due to sample bleaching) or due to some change in the aberrations of the specimen?

      Response:

      We want to thank Reviewer #3 for the valuable comment. We assume that by change in artefacts, Reviewer #3 is referring to the overall green fluorescent structure. Indeed, this last volume shows the anaphase to telophase transition where the mitotic spindle is being reorganised and disassembled. As such, the structure is much less well-defined than in the first volume. The changes in aberrations over time are not particularly significant in this case, and the photobleaching is not that impactful in such an experiment where relatively thin volumes are acquired with substantial time delay between them. To address this comment, we plan to revise the discussion of the figure and to ensure that the scene observed in the last volume is clearer.

      1. "These results demonstrate that the remote focusing functionality of the system can be successfully applied for live 3D-SIM experiments, allowing four-dimensional acquisition while keeping the specimen stationary, thus avoiding the usual agitation and perturbations associated with mechanical actuation." Generally, this statement is true, but for the specific example shown of drosophila embryogenesis is it relevant? If they use piezo-driven Z-stack imaging with AO, does that lead to incorrect reconstructions or motion-induced artifacts? Related to the results shown in Fig 6, the fair comparison would be AO SIM vs SIM (without AO), not AO SIM vs AO WF.

      Response:

      We are grateful to Reviewer #3 for the insightful comment. Drosophila embryos are quite robust to perturbations due to their shape and size, and the restrictions imposed by SIM experiments (e.g. small Z steps and Z levels held for long periods of time) make motion-induced artefacts not very impactful. Regarding the results, the point of Figure 6 is not to demonstrate the advantages of aberration correction, which we do not claim in the caption or in the relevant part of the discussion, but to demonstrate that remote focusing works well with 3D-SIM reconstruction, which is known to have stringent requirements about the image quality. To address this comment, we plan to revise the figure and its relevant part of the results section.

      1. When performing remote focusing, is the effective NA of the imaged plane changing with respect to the NA of the objective used at its focal plane?

      Response:

      We thank Reviewer #3 for the good question. The effective NA is not altered by the remote focusing. We plan to mention this detail in the results section.

      1. [OPTIONAL] Did the authors run calculations to explore whether a commercial upright microscope could be used instead of their design? Are there any fundamental flaws that would make impossible using a commercial base? If not, could an AO SIM module be designed such that it adds on a commercial base? It would be important to discuss this point.

      Response:

      We thank Reviewer #3 for bringing up this interesting point. A lot of considerations, calculations, and modelling were done in the design of the Deep3DSIM system. Of course, the use of a commercial upright microscope stand was part of the deliberation. One of the obvious limitations is the difficult access to the pupil-conjugated plane. On the other hand, a commercial microscope stand is not well compatible with many of the key parts of the system, which were designed around specific biological applications, such as dual camera system for fast live simultaneous imaging and the heavy-duty Z stage intended to support two heavy micromanipulators. To address this comment, we plan to add a discussion of the compatibility of Deep3DSIM with commercial microscope stands to the discussion section and the supplementary material.

      Minor comments:

      1. Fig 2 lacks a color bar for D panels, which is in log scale. Authors should also show the Fourier transform along the z direction.

      Response:

      The colour mapping in Figure 2 uses the lookup tables called Cyan Hot and Orange Hot, as indicated in the caption, which come from the ImageJ software. To address this comment, we plan to improve the caption to reflect the fact that the plots are in log scale. We also want to include Fourier transforms along Z, either in the figure itself or in the supplementary material.

      1. p4, "Such minor aberrations tend to be insignificant in conventional microscopy modalities such as widefield and confocal (Wang and Zhang, 2021). Therefore..." If optical aberrations are insignificant for single cells in widefield and confocal why do experiments here? These sentences should be rephrased to motivate better the experiments performed.

      Response:

      We agree with this comment. To address it, we plan to rephrase this part of the results section to motivate better the experiments.

      1. Imaged microtubules look abnormal, 'dotty' (figure 2) in both WF and SIM. See https://sim.hms.harvard.edu/portfolio/microtubules/ or Fig 1 of Wegel, et al Dobbie Sci Rep 2016, for better examples of continuous microtubule structures as imaged with SIM.

      Response:

      The dottiness of the microtubule structures is not related to the SIM reconstruction, because the same dottiness is seen in the respective WF data, too. It is a product of the sample preparation and it has only aesthetic significance. Nevertheless, to address this comment we plan to mention the dottiness in the results section.

      1. Is also the remote focusing performed via optimization of metrics similar to the one used for compensating aberrations?

      Response:

      Yes, as mentioned in the Methods and materials (p. 13), the calibration of the remote focusing involved sensorless aberration correction of several Zernike modes, such as defocus and spherical aberrations.

      1. Figure 2, the order of names on the top right of the panel should match the order of curves presented.

      Response:

      We agree with this comment. To address it, we plan to reorder the curves in Figure 2.

      1. I value the efforts to improve open-source tools for system and AO control and GUI. And those tools seemed to have been modified for this work, although those modifications are not described. Would it be possible for the authors to describe those modifications?

      Response:

      A detailed breakdown is publicly available at the respective software repositories. To address this comment, we plan to add a summary of software changes to the supplementary material.

      1. Reported average values of the FWHM of imaged beads in 3D (p4) require also to report errors associated with those measurements.

      Response:

      We agree with this comment. To address it, we plan to add statistical information to the FWHM values on page 4.

      1. Page 13, second paragraph states that "The results from chapter 3.2..." I believe that was a copy/paste from a thesis but should be corrected for a peer-reviewed publication, as there is no chapter 3.2.

      Response:

      This is a leftover from an older version of the document which used numbered sectioning. In this case “chapter 3.2” refers to subsection “Characterisation of drift and temperature effects”. We plan on fixing this mistake in the revised manuscript.

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      Reply to the reviewers

      Reviewer #1 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity):

      This manuscript compiles LoF variants of M1AP and ZZS proteins (i.e., SHOC1, TEX11 and SPO16) that almost certainly underlie infertility and reports the first case of an infertile man homozygous for a variant in SPO16. The authors validated interactions between human M1AP and ZZS that were found in mice. Analyzing testicular samples from infertile men revealed that those with deficiencies in SHOC1, TEX11 or SPO16 exhibited early meiotic arrest without haploid germ cells, whereas those with M1AP variants displayed a predominant metaphase I arrest with rare haploid germ cells. Further investigations showed that disrupted SHOC1, TEX11 or SPO16 led to defective synapsis and pairing of homologous chromosomes and unpaired DNA DSBs, while M1AP mutations reduced CO events. Importantly, men with LoF variants in M1AP can father healthy children by medically assisted reproduction. Overall, the results are clear and convincing in defining likely causative variants in infertility patients.

      Response: We thank reviewer #1 for the appreciation of our work. We already addressed the suggestions raised by reviewer# 1 to improve our manuscript.

      I have a few minor comments for improving the manuscript:<br /> • No statistical analyses were performed. The meaning of error bars was not mentioned. It is essential to specify the minimum number of seminiferous tubules counted for each patient.

      Response: We added the statistical analysis. We described now in more clarity that all round tubules in a patient's testicular section were counted (l. 646-653).

      • Allele frequencies of variants are not provided.

      Response: We added the allele frequencies from gnomAD v4.1.0 (SNVs) and gnomAD SVs v2.1 (CNVs) in Table 1.

      • Figure 4 should clearly label the representations of each color channel.

      Response: Thanks for this suggestion. We labelled each color channel accordingly.

      • The authors should clearly label the bands of SPO16 in the right panel of Figure 1B.

      Response: We labelled the SPO16 band in Figure 1B more clearly.

      • Appendix Figure S1B and S2B, what does "rat" mean in "rat Ins2 Ex3/4/"?

      Response: In the minigene assay, an artificial gene was constructed with exon 3 and 4 from the insulin 2 gene of the species rat (Rattus norvegicus). We described this in more detail in the Appendix methods section (l. 119) and in the Figure legend S1B and S2B.

      Reviewer #1 (Significance):

      Overall, this study significantly contributes to the understanding of some genetic causes of human infertility and offers a potential avenue to treat patients with M1AP variants/ mutants. Since no knock-in animal model was applied to mimic the subtle phenotype variations observed in patients, the functionality of truncated proteins remains unexplored. For example, it is unclear why the germ cells in patient M3260 with the SHOC1 variant can progress to round spermatids (Fig. 2C), while those in Shoc1 KO mice (10.1093/molehr/gaac015) and other patients cannot. However, this is a minor concern.

      Response: Thanks for this comment. SHOC1 variant c.1939+2T>C present in M3260 is a predicted splice site variant. In vitro it results in an in-frame exon skipping as shown by the minigene assay (Appendix Figure S2) that is predicted to lead to a loss of only 4% of the protein. We assume that this does not result in a complete loss but only in an impaired protein function enabling significantly reduced progression of spermatogenesis up to the round spermatid stage in few cells (l. 354-360). We addressed this in more detail in the results section (l. 145ff and l. 189ff) and in the Appendix Figure S2 legend. Accordingly, SHOC1 variant c.1939+2T>C is not a LoF variant and we excluded it from the quantification of subsequent analyses. Immunohistological staining of this patients was excluded from Appendix Figure S6, S7, S9, S10, and S11 and incorporated into Appendix Figure S2.

      In addition, the recurrent M1AP c.676dup was functionally analysed in our previous work (Wyrwoll et al., 2020, PMID: 32673564). We detected M1AP mRNA in a testicular biopsy from one patient showing that this variant leads not to degradation of the mRNA. Furthermore heterologous expression of the mutant M1AP cDNA in HEK293T cells led to the production of a truncated protein that presumably leads to loss of protein function. We added this information in l. 136. Furthermore, our preliminary experiments of co-immunoprecipitation of truncated M1AP with TEX11 hint to an abolished protein-protein interaction caused by M1AP c.676dup and thus a loss of protein function.

      Our field of expertise is gametogenesis and meiosis in mice.

      Reviewer #2 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity):

      Summary:<br /> This interesting manuscript provides evidence for the biological and clinical relevance in human males of mutations in genes encoding M1AP and other related proteins. In mice, M1AP, "meiosis 1 associated protein," is known to associate with several proteins (SHOC1, TEX11, and SPO16) in the ZZS complex that promotes DNA recombination and crossover formation during meiosis I prophase. Mutation of these proteins in model organisms disrupts the process of recombination and cause arrest of spermatocytes prior to the first meiotic division. Here the authors took advantage of their MERGE (Male Reproductive Genomics) cohort to screen for human loss-of-function (LoF) mutations in the relevant ZZS complex and M1AP genes and to associate these with human male reproductive phenotypes. They found that men with deficiency of ZZS proteins SHOC1, TEX11 or SPO16 genes were infertile, exhibiting arrest of germ cell development early in meiotic prophase, with aberrations of chromosome synapsis and failure to repair DNA double-strand breaks (DSBs). In interesting contrast, men with M1AP mutations exhibited metaphase arrest, and indeed, in some cases, produced haploid spermatids, which in medically assisted reproduction (ICSI), led to the birth of offspring. Because they demonstrate that M1AP interacts with the other proteins, the authors conclude that M1AP is a "catalyzer," but not essential, for the processes of synapsis, recombination, and formation of haploid gametes.

      Major Comments:<br /> The work is clearly presented with detailed methods that should allow adaptation in other laboratories.<br /> Overall, this study is a tour de force with what was no doubt difficult archival samples. The histology is generally of good quality, supporting the conclusions about progress of meiotic prophase in the mutant samples. The images of H&E-stained tissue are particularly striking, especially those in supplemental figures.

      Response: We thank Reviewer #2 for the appreciation of our work and the suggestions to improve our manuscript. To provide transparency of our work, we plan to upload each (immuno-) histologically stained testicular section shown in the Main and Appendix Figures in the microscopy image repository OMERO/Open Microscopy Environment (OME).

      That said, and with particular reference to Fig. 3A, it is difficult to sub-stage meiotic prophase by immunocytochemistry, even in optimal samples, with only one marker (in this case gH2AX). The staging here is also at odds with the statement in the subsequent section (and Fig. 4B) on absence of pachytene cells in men with mutation of SHOC1, TEX11, or SPO16.

      Because precise stages of arrest probably cannot be determined in these samples, the authors would be wiser to use phrases such as "zygotene-like"

      Response: We agree with the reviewer that it is indeed difficult to sub-stage meiotic prophase based on IHC for one marker. A precise sub-staging of the meiotic prophase would require identifying the stage of the seminiferous epithelium. The cycle of the human seminiferous epithelium has been subdivided into 12 stages based on the acrosomal development made visible by immunohistochemistry for acrosin. However, in order to properly evaluate the human germ cell associations, only seminiferous tubules showing a well-preserved seminiferous epithelium with no apparent damage to the epithelium and the peritubular wall can be considered. In addition, all the different generations of germ cells have to be present as well as at least six spermatids (Muciaccia et al., 2013, PMID: 23946533). As these requirements cannot be fulfilled in the testicular tissue of men with a meiotic arrest as due to LoF variants in M1AP or the ZZS genes, we followed the reviewer's suggestion and have modified the respective phrases throughout the text, e.g. to 'zygotene-like'.

      The authors should also clarify how it was confirmed that the metaphase-like cells were spermatocytes and not spermatogonia (given that gH2AX signal is weak or unclear in some such nuclei). Readers with a focus on the more regularly staged mouse or rat tubules would appreciate a few more guidelines to criteria for staging human tubules.

      Response: We thank the reviewer for raising this point. In order to confirm that the metaphase-like cells were indeed spermatocytes we will perform additional IHC staining for γH2AX and MAGEA4 on sequential testis sections (distance 3 µm) on representative samples of the patient cohort as well as controls as the hosts of both antibodies are mice. For a few more guidelines on the criteria for staging human tubules, please refer to the response to the previous point.

      Evidence for the birth of a (healthy) child from one individual with M1AP mutation verges on the anecdotal (N=1). It is interesting but raises multiple questions and concerns about both the frequency of chromosomal abnormalities in such individuals and the transmission of the mutant alleles.

      Response: We understand very well, that the evidence based on N=1 seems to be sparse. Nevertheless, if it is in principle possible for a man affected by bi-allelic M1AP LoF variants to conceive a child by ICSI then it could be also possible for other couples with a similar genetic condition (M1AP LoF), and thus providing a proof-of-principle (l. 417f). Reviewer #2 is completely right with the concerns regarding chromosomal aberrations and the transmission of the mutant allele. Thus, it is essential for clinicians/geneticists to counsel the affected couple carefully about the small but existed chance to have a biological own child and the accompanied potential but so far unexplored risks as outlined in l. 435ff. Our future research project will address this open and highly relevant question.

      The authors conclude that the M1AP protein is an essential "catalyzer" in the meiotic recombination pathway. However, it is not clear from the data presented that M1AP in fact has enzymatic catalysis activity or exactly when and how it participates. Because the word "catalyzer" is not buttressed with hard or convincing evidence, the authors should consider other ways to describe the proposed role of M1AP, perhaps as a "putative component" and/or "modifier" of the recombination pathway.

      Response: We appreciate the reviewer's advice, and changed the wording to "functional enhancer".

      Minor comments:<br /> Fig. 1A - these are nice illustrations, but overly simplified with respect to timing (synapsis is not completed in zygonema)

      Response: We completely agree that Figure 1A is a simplified depiction that could not reflect the temporally and spatially highly complex processes of meiosis. By adding a second dotted box and describing the process in the Figure legend in more detail, we tried to reduce the simplification. Nonetheless, we believe that this simplified schematic help readers, who are less familiar with the progression of meiosis to contextualise the described processess.

      Fig. 1B - greater clarity in legend would be appreciated

      Response: We described Figure 1B in more detail.

      Figs. 2A & 3A - colors in bar graphs are difficult to discriminate

      Response: We improved the discrimination of bar graphs accordingly.

      Fig. 4A - with full appreciation for the difficulty with this material, the images are of low contrast and require considerable enlargement

      Response: We agree with this opinion; and we increased the contrast. In addition, we will improve the way of representation in a revised Figure 4 in the complete revision of the manuscript in accordance with the suggestions of all three Reviewers.

      Reviewer #2 (Significance):

      This is a very interesting paper, which I evaluated from the perspective of a reproductive geneticist with expertise in meiosis and interest in infertility. I think this report will be of interest to clinicians because it identifies a gene possibly linked to marginal fertility and establishes human protein interactions similar to those previously identified in mice. It reinforces the importance of ZZS genes in humans. The contributions of this report to the field of meiosis confirm previous evidence on M1AP, including mutant phenotypes and protein interactions, extending them to humans. We can thus appreciate the conserved function of the mammalian M1AP protein, but as yet the molecular mechanisms of M1AP are not clarified.

      Response: We gratefully thank Reviewer #2 for the thorough evaluation of our work and appreciate the recognition of the significance. Indeed, it was not possible to clarify the molecular mechanisms of M1AP that, hopefully, could be identified as soon as human specific antibodies, which will function in the needed applications, will be available. Additionally, we will perform further experiments as suggested by Reviewer #3 to gain a better understanding of the processess involved. Clarifying the underlying molecular mechanism is not only one of our highest interest but will also be important for the scientific community.

      Reviewer #3 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity):

      In this manuscript, Rotte et al. investigate the meiotic molecular function in human of the M1AP protein and of the ZZS complex (SCHOC1, TEX11 and SPO16 proteins). The ZSS complex is a key player of meiotic recombination. It is a sub-complex of the conserved family of the ZMM proteins, essential for the formation of class I crossovers, a proper chromosomes segregation and fertility. Understanding its mode of action, regulation and conservation in human is thus a crucial issue in the fields of meiosis and human reproduction, with potential implications for patients. In that context, the recent identification of the protein M1AP as a partner of the ZSS proteins raise the question of its role, function and conservation. The aim of this study is thus of primary importance.<br /> To perform this molecular characterization, the authors made a cohort (24 total) of men carrying LoF variants in M1AP and ZSS genes. They performed a molecular biology analysis to assess the physical interaction between the human M1AP protein and the three components of the ZSS complex. Their results confirm a previous work performed in mice, mentioned by the authors.<br /> Then, they took advantage of available biopsies from different mutant men to perform a histological and cytological analysis of the impact of the different mutations on meiosis. The main conclusions are that in human, similarly to what is known in different organisms (ranging from yeast to mice), the ZSS complex is essential for crossover formation, synapsis and spermatogenesis, and that defect in the genes is associated with a premature prophase I arrest and no sperm formation. The authors also showed that M1AP protein plays a role in meiotic progression, but to a lesser extend compare to the ZSS proteins, with a metaphase I arrest, an undetectable recombination phenotype, apart of a reduced crossover number and, spermatozoa can form in its absence.

      Major points:<br /> The authors investigate the physical interaction between M1AP and the ZSS members through a single approach: Co-IP of tagged proteins after expression in human HEK293T cells. This approach is informative, but to reinforce the conclusions the authors should provide data from independent approaches: yeast two hybrid, expression of recombinant proteins followed by pull down, co-immunostaining (TEX11 antibodies were used in the study and M1AP antibody is present in the literature) are possible non-exclusive approaches to decipher, more in details, the interaction. Moreover, understanding the hierarchy of interactions appears important to understand its rational, regulation and function. What is the meaning of a M1AP interaction with all the members of the complex? Remains an open question.

      Response: We thank Reviewer #3 for this comment. In an independent approach we aimed to specify the interaction of M1AP to the ZZS proteins. Thus, we already cloned truncated versions of M1AP to refine the binding site of M1AP to the ZZS proteins (Figure R1). In a preliminary experiment, we co-transfected full-length as well as truncated forms of M1AP with TEX11 and showed via Co-IP that the interaction is only possible with full-length M1AP. Within the full-revision, we plan to finalise these experiments and thus validate the specifity of the interaction between M1AP and TEX11 and thereby gain more insight into the interaction/hierarchy of the interaction of M1AP with the ZZS complex.

      Figure R1 Tolerance landscape of M1AP NM_001321739.2 illustrating the respective regions selected for mutagenesis of truncated M1AP constructs. Adapted from MetaDome.

      Moreover, in the last couple of years, we spent enormous resources (personnel, time, financial) to get a functional antibody against human M1AP, including testing of different commercial (and already published) antibodies, creating three customised antibodies against different M1AP polypeptides, a nanobody raised against the complete M1AP protein (failed because of the impossibility to purify the protein), and contacting the authors of previously published customised M1AP antibodies (Arango et al., 2013/PMID 23269666 and Li et al. 2023/PMID 36440627). Figure R2 recapitulates some of our attempts. Moreover, we published the initial attempts of establishing an M1AP antibody in Wyrwoll et al., 2020/PMID 32673564. Unfortunately, no human M1AP-specific antibody is available.

      Additionally, we tested different TEX11, SHOC1 and SPO16 antibodies in immunohistochemistry and SHOC1 and SPO16 antibodies in immunofluorescence of spermatocyte spreads, which did not result in a specific staining (Figure R3). Due to the lack of a human specific antibody against M1AP as well as antibodies against SHOC1 and SPO16, we are not able to localise these proteins in patient testicular sections to address this highly interesting research question that remains of great interest within our work on M1AP.

      Figure R2. Attempts to locate M1AP in the human testis. Previous attempts to identify a commercially available antibody that reliably detects M1AP in the human testis have not been successful (Wyrwoll et al., 2020/ PMID 32673564). Accordingly, we tried to produce a human-specific antibody in cooperation with companies specified in antibody customisation (Eurogentec, Biotem). The last attempt, conducted with Biotem, is exemplarily shown in this figure. A. Human M1AP protein sequence (NP_620159.2) highlighting the antibody epitopes (orange) that were selected so that in men carrying the M1AP LoF variant c.676dup p.Trp226Leufs*4 in a homozygous state, the respective antibody should not be able to bind due to the protein truncation. For rabbit immunisation, both epitopes were pooled. B. HEK293T cells were transfected with DYK-tagged M1AP plasmids, either expressing the wildtype (WT) or the truncated protein (W226L). Sera of day (D) 28 and 42 of the immunised rabbit as well as the purified antibody product, a commercially available anti-M1AP antibody (HPA), and anti-DYK control antibody specificity was confirmed by Western blotting. C. Customised anti-M1AP antibody validation in human testicular control and D. M1AP-deficient tissue did not yield in a reliable staining. Various protocol optimisations were tested (different antigen retrieval, adapted blocking and antibody dilution solution, various primary and secondary antibody concentrations). Date shown represents the best result, respectively. The application of both sera and the purified antibody for spermatocyte spreading was tested in parallel and has not been successful either (data not shown). SC: Sertoli cells, SPC: spermatocytes, M-I: metaphase I cells, RS: round spermatids, ES: elongated spermatids. The scale bar represents 100 µm and 10 µm.

      Figure R3. Efforts to identify human-specific antibodies for ZZS localisation. A. Commercially available antibodies for ZZS were tested via Western blotting, aiming to reliably detect SHOC1, SPO16, and TEX11 in human testicular biopsies. HA-tagged wildtype plasmid DNA (WT) was transfected in HEK293T cells and the anti-HA antibody was used as a positive control. Only one antibody detected TEX11 reliable in the purified lysates (anti-TEX11: HPA002950). B.-D. Immunohistochemical staining was performed with all antibodies on human testicular and is representatively shown for anti-SHOC1: #BS155344-R, anti-SPO16: #BS15024-R, and anti-TEX11: HPA002950. Only the anti-TEX11 (#HPA002950) was found to be specific. However, presumably due to the fixation with Bouin's solution, staining could not reliably be repeated in all samples and was not implied in this study. Various protocol optimisations were tested (different antigen retrieval, adapted blocking and antibody dilution solution, various primary and secondary antibody concentrations). Date shown represents the best result, respectively. The application of all antibodies for spermatocyte spreading was tested in parallel and have not been successful (data not shown), except for anti-TEX11 (#HPA002950, Appendix Figure S13). SC: Sertoli cells, SPC: spermatocytes, RS: round spermatids, ES: elongated spermatids. The scale bar represents 100 µm and 10 µm.

      The ZZS mutants have a defect in gH2AX pattern, a defect in synapsis and no MLH1 foci, associated to apoptosis and prophase I arrest. M1AP mutation has a minor impact. The characterization of the effect of the different mutations (in particular M1AP) on the recombination process should be addressed further, by cytological means. For example, effect on strand invasion and ssDNA production should be monitored using RPA, DMC1 and RAD51 antibodies. The impact on alternative resolution pathway (e.g. BLOOM dependent) should be tested as well as the effect on other ZMM proteins, in particular MSH4-5, should be investigated. These experiments are essential to characterize, at the molecular level, the function of the different proteins during recombination.

      Response: We thank the reviewer for this suggestion and highly appreciate to investigate the different pathways in more depth. We plan to perform additional immunofluorescence staining of spermatocyte spreads of identified patients compared to the control in the planned revision for a better understanding of M1AP within human recombination. We already ordered the antibodies against meiotic marker proteins as suggested by the Reviewer.

      We would like to take the opportunity to refer to the extremely limited access to cryopreserved testicular material of the patients presented in this manuscript: for each gene (M1AP, SHOC1, TEX11, SPO16) we were lucky to get one testicular biopsy specimen from one man for only one preparation of spermatocyte spreads. We hope for the Reviewer's understanding that we cannot address each requested staining albeit this would be of highest interest. However, we are very confident that we will provide additional staining added to the yet shown to improve the understanding of M1AP's function on human male meiotic recombination.

      In the same line, TEX11 staining in M1AP mutant should be more documented and in particular the different stages shown, as well as the foci counting, to have a quantitative result, that can be compared to MLH1. Moreover, co-immunostaining of different markers with TEX11: RPA, DMC1, MSH and MLH1 are also important to understand how the pathway is perturbed and the recruitment delayed/affected.

      Response: In the planned revision, we will include the TEX11 foci counting using the acquired images that will be compared to MLH1 foci quantification. In addition, we plan additional co-immunostaining of TEX11 with different markers dependent on the availability of testicular material. Due to the limited resources of cryopreserved material, we cannot repeat the TEX11 staining in the patients with M1AP LoF variant for documentation of different stages. Slides that have already been stained are unfortunately bleached and cannot be re-analysed.

      The published M1AP antibody should be tested to investigate its perturbation in the absence of the ZZS proteins and the hierarchy of event.

      Response: As already outlined above, we tried to get any functional M1AP antibody for several years, which was not possible (Figure R2). Thus, we unfortunately cannot address this comment via this approach albeit this research question remains of great interest within our work on M1AP.

      OPTIONAL: the obligatory crossover was measured, a comment or calculation of interference would be very interesting, and it seems doable using the MLH1 counting, to test whether thses mutants have an effect on this process.

      Response: We thank Reviewer #3 for the suggestion of this interesting question that was not within our focus so far. Due to the limited material and the small number of cells from which we could digitally separate the chromosomes, we believe that the sample size is insufficient to obtain a statistically significant result.

      Minor comments<br /> As written, the title is misleading, the paper does not investigate the impact of M1AP in ZSS recombination. Such study implies to study genetic interactions or the genetic dependency between the different proteins, which is not the case here.

      Response: Thanks for this comment. We changed the title to "Genotype-specific differences in infertile men due to loss-of-function variants in M1AP or ZZS genes".

      Labelled on histological images is not clear. The authors should clearly explain to what marker each staining correspond.

      Response: We changed the labelling accordingly.

      L67 to 72: the authors should update and use more accurate citations for meiotic recombination.

      Response: Thanks for this suggestion. In this section, we have described the fundamental processes of meiosis, which have been repeatedly reviewed by renowned scientists. We have therefore chosen four well-cited expert reviews from different groups as references (PMID: 29385397, 24050176, 27648641, 35613017).

      L76: the ZMM are specifically involved in the resolution of class I crossover. Please rephrase.

      Response: We rephrased the sentence and changed it throughout the manuscript.

      L94: Strictly, the author identified an interaction, they didn't establish how the interaction takes place.

      Response: We rephrased the sentence.

      FigS13: TEX11 staining should be presented with foci counting as a main figure.

      Response: We plan to restructure Figure 4 along with the new meiosis specific markers and will consider this comment.

      L255: MLH1 does not quantify homologous recombination but, class I crossovers.

      Response: We rephrased the sentence.

      L352: The sentence is hard to understand, rephrase please.

      Response: We rephrased the sentence.

      Reviewer #3 (Significance):

      In general, the paper is well written and easy to follow. However, in light of the importance of the questions for the field of meiosis, it currently seems a little superficial, in particular if the authors aim at addressing the molecular function of the different proteins. The role of the ZSS proteins and M1AP in the control of meiotic recombination, at the molecular level is very important to decipher and additional experiments might help to better address this question. In addition, the functional links between M1AP and ZSS remains unclear and to investigate further.<br /> This study gives information for human process, and can be compared to more advanced work done with mice.<br /> This study will be important for the community working on meiosis in mammals, but also for people interested in reproduction.

      Response: We thank Reviewer #3 for the thorough evaluation and acknowledgment of the significance of our work. We appreciate the suggestion of performing additional experiments to gain a better and more in depth understanding of the molecular pathways involved. We hope for the Reviewer's understanding that we cannot address all raised comments due to the limited material and the difficulty to get human specific antibodies in a research field that primarily works with highly valuable mouse models.

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      __Reviewer #1 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)): __

      In their manuscript, Dutta and colleagues compared the meiotic recombination landscapes between five budding yeast species. In the first part of the work, the authors constructed a high-resolution map of meiotic recombination events in Kluyveromyces lactis supported by high-quality genome assemblies for two strains of this yeast. Then, partially repeating their CO and NCO mapping strategy, they compared a number of meiotic recombination parameters between the five species (sometimes three, depending on the quality of the data for each species). They particularly focused on key parameters for meiotic recombination, such as crossover interference and homeostasis and obligate crossover. Although the analysis is interesting, it is underdeveloped in many places and lacks the general conclusions regarding the evolution of recombination and the broader perspective that would be expected from a comparison of these phenomena in budding yeasts.

      [R] Tackling the evolution of recombination is ambitious. Here, with a dataset of five species, it is hard to draw strong evolutionary conclusions besides the variations in the crossover (CO) landscapes and the control of CO formation that we observed, which is already significant. The multiple losses of CO interference that we describe here may constitute our strongest evolutionary conclusion. It potentially underscores the minor evolutionary advantage associated to CO interference at least in budding yeasts. In this context, we changed the title to be more factual and updated the text to better highlight the significance and implications of our findings.

      Major comments:

      The authors indicate that the distribution of hotspots and coldspots is not preserved between species, but this finding is not properly documented. I think it would be useful to include recombination maps in a main figure for all species (or at least for S. cerevisiae, K. lactis and L. waltii) with the elements highlighted. This will allow for a visual illustration of the variability in the recombination landscape between the studied species. [R] The genomes of the species show blocks of synteny but overall, they are not collinear and therefore, it is not possible to have a direct comparison of the recombination maps. In our previous work, we have highlighted the non-conservation of CO hotspots between S. cerevisiae, L. kluyveri and L. waltii (Brion et al. 2017; Dutreux et al. 2023). Briefly, we retrieved conserved syntenic blocks in L. kluyveri and L. waltii genomes containing at least two S. cerevisiae orthologs associated with one hotspot. L. waltii shares only five out of the 92 S. cerevisiae crossover hotspots (RHO5, SLS1, GYP6, OLE1 and MRPL8), while L. kluyveri shares only one. L. waltii and L. kluyveri share no crossover hotspots. In addition, our current study shows that none of the K. lactis hotspot is conserved in any of the four other species (response figure 1 and new supplementary figure S11).

      Response Figure 1. Density of crossovers along the genome using a 5 kb window in the S. cerevisiae genome (Mancera et al. 2008; Oke et al. 2014; Krishnaprasad et al. 2015 combined dataset). Horizontal dotted green line represents crossover hotspot significance threshold. Solid spheres represent the conserved CO hotspots with either L. kluyveri (red) or L. waltii (blue). None of the 92 S. cerevisiae crossover hotspot is conserved in L. lactis.

      Although analyses analogous to those presented in Fig. S5 had already been published in other comparisons of the recombination landscape in yeast (e.g. Dutreux et al., 2023), I think that Figs. S5A and S5B are worth to be presented in the main figures (not supplementary data). In many species of eukaryotes, the detection of NCOs is practically impossible, therefore only results for COs are presented. Therefore, it is perhaps also worth discussing the fact that the relationship applies to all recombination events and not only COs, and therefore is related to the regulation of DSBs frequency and not individual DSBs repair pathways.

      [R] Figures S5A-B are now included in the main figure, Figure 2B. The association holds true for all total recombination (CO+NCO) events as well, new supplementary figure S6A.

      The authors find that CO coldspots were associated with DNA repair genes. Unfortunately, an equivalent analysis was not performed for all recombination events (CO + NCO). I presume this approach is based on the belief that COs are more mutagenic than NCOs. However, recent studies in humans suggest that, at least in mammals, meiotic DSBs themselves are mutagenic, regardless of the pathway used for their repair (Hinch et al., Science 2023). Therefore, I would suggest repeating the analysis also considering NCOs (although I am aware that the picture of NCOs may be incomplete). I would also like to see some graphical representation of the analysis. Is it possible to perform a classic analysis of coldspots/hotspot enrichment in relation to gene ontology?

      [R] As suggested, we performed the analysis to independently detect coldspots for all recombination events (CO+NCO). Based on a threshold of

      In relation to the previous point - it may be worth repeating this type of analysis also for other yeasts used in this study, or at least for S. cerevisiae, to be able to consider the extent to which this relationship is universal and dependent on the meiotic DSB repair pathway.

      [R] The analysis regarding the CO coldspots has been performed in the other species as well. As mentioned in the main text, although some overlap between CO coldspots and DNA repair genes has been observed in the other species as well, we observed a significant enrichment in K. lactis only, maybe because the dataset is larger than in the other species.

      In Fig. S7, the point where WGD occurred is marked in the wrong place, or at least that is what the sentence in the text says ("The Lachancea and Kluyveromyces species branched from the Saccharomyces lineage more than 100 million years ago, before to the ancestral whole-genome duplication (WGD) event specific of the S. cerevisiae lineage").

      [R] We regret the oversight and have corrected the figure.

      The result presented in Fig. S8 is interesting and should be shown in the main figures. Perhaps it would be worth adding an illustration illustrating simple versus complex COs.

      [R] The old Figure S8 is now a part of main Figure 2C-D with the illustrations describing the CO types.

      The last part of the results includes an analysis of the evolutionary rates of the ZMM genes. In the discussion, the authors should also refer the results of this analysis to the previous analysis of the overrepresentation of DNA repair genes in recombination coldspots. I understand that ZMM are not DNA repair proteins in the strict sense, but I think it is worth familiarizing readers with the authors' view on this matter. Moreover, I would suggest showing where MLH1 and MLH3 are located on the plot in Fig. 6 (especially the meiosis-specific MLH3), whether the selection pressure acts on them as on ZMM proteins, or rather as on DNA repair proteins. Showing the SLX4 and MUS81 would also be interesting.

      [R] Figure 6 has been updated as suggested and now shows the Mlh1, Mlh3, Slx4 and Mus81 dN/dS values for the three species.

      I feel like the discussion is underdeveloped. I missed a deeper summary of the comparison between meiotic recombination among the tested budding yeasts in the context of the presence and absence of functional ZMM. Even the title of the work is not properly developed in the manuscript text. The analysis shows that it is not the presence of a functional ZMM pathway or its lack that introduces differences between the individual recombination landscapes, although ZMM determines the presence of proper CO interference. With the caveat that for L. kluyveri it is basically unknown whether it has a functional ZMM or not. Maybe confirming the lack of expression of some ZMM genes in meiosis of this species would answer the question of how it should be treated?

      [R] We agree with this reviewer that our original title was imprecise, so we changed it to be more factual, emphasizing on the multiple losses of crossover interference in budding yeasts. As stated above, it potentially underscores the minor/negligible evolutionary advantage associated to CO interference at least in budding yeasts. From there, it is hard to draw deeper conclusions since the actual roles/functions of CO interference are still under debate, notably in yeasts where the CO frequency tends to be high. We improved the discussion to better highlight these points.

      We also agree that a deeper characterization of the ZMM factors persisting in the non-Saccharomyces yeasts would be informative, but we believe it is beyond the scope of the current manuscript and more suitable for a follow up work. However, our recent publication about L. kluyveri (Legrand et al 2024) shows that Zip3 is properly expressed in meiosis and behaves as in S. cerevisiaesince it is located at DSB sites. Furthermore, we have unpublished transcriptomic data (Response Figure 2) showing that all the ZMM genes from L. kluyveri are specifically induced in meiosis (fold increase >16 at least compared to pre-sporulation conditions). Therefore, so far, although the level of CO interference in L. kluyveri is minimal, there is no indication that the ZMM genes are mis regulated.

      Response Figure 2. Transcriptomic data showing that all the ZMM genes from L. kluyveri are specifically induced in meiosis (Unpublished data from Llorente Lab, CRCM, Marseille).






      Minor comments:

      In general, Figure captions are imprecise, many of them lack clear information explaining what is depicted. Authors should remember that figure legends should be self-sufficient. [R] The figure legends have been updated and are now self-sufficient.

      In the revised manuscript, I would suggest placing figure numbers on the figures and using line numbering, which would facilitate the reception of the work and possible reference to its individual elements in the review.

      [R] We regret the omission. Figure numbers, Line numbers and Page numbers have been added.

      Reviewer #1 (Significance (Required)):

      The study provides a new insight into the variation in recombination landscape within budding yeast species with a special emphasis on crossover control. This includes also de novo assemblies of Kluyveromyces lactis genome and high-resolution tetrad-based maps of meiotic recombination events. Previously, recombination maps of different yeast species were compared, however this study focuses on budding yeasts, some of which lost ZMM pathway and differ in some crossover parameters, like interference and homeostasis. Although the analysis is interesting, it lacks the general conclusions regarding the evolution of recombination and the broader perspective that would be expected from a comparison of these phenomena in budding yeasts.

      __Reviewer #2 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)): __

      This paper describes the genome-wide mapping of meiotic recombination in non-Saccharomyces yeast, Kluyveromyces lactis. By using heterologous parental strains, the authors mapped crossovers (COs) and noncrossovers (NCOs) on the genome of K. lactis which lacks proteins necessary for CO formation such as S. cerevisiae, mammals and plants. This is an extension of previous works by the authors' group which mapped CO and NCO in different yeast, Lachancea kluyveri and L. waltii by a similar approach. The authors found that CO frequencies in K. lactis are much lower than those in S. cerevisiae and COs showed weaker interference, which facilitates the non-random distribution of COs along a chromosome. Overall, the experiments and informatic analyses have been done in good quality and the results are convincing. The paper provides additional new information on the landscape of meiotic recombination in different yeast species. These results are of great interest to researchers in the field of meiotic recombination and evolution of meiosis. There are some issues that the authors may be able to address before the publication.

      Major points: While the authors noted that K. lactic shows the loss of a pro-CO factors (ZMM protein), Spo16, and Msh5 (due to the introduction of an in-frame stop codon), it still possesses other proteins such as Zip1, Zip2, Zip3, Zip4/Spo22, Mer3, and Msh4. It is still likely that these pro-CO factors control CO formation (and interference) in this yeast. It would be nice for the authors to study whether the knockout of these genes is dispensable for CO formation and interference in meiosis. A similar analysis should be done for L. kluyveri which retains all ZMM genes, but this is clearly out of the scope of this paper.

      [R] The question of the functions of the remaining ZMM factors is indeed interesting and related to point #8 from reviewer 1 (please see above). Although this is beyond the scope of our work, we would like to refer here to work from Amy McQueen's lab using L. lactis Zip1 in S. cerevisiae (Voelkel-Meiman 2015). This study shows that L. lactis Zip1 does not allow synaptonemal complex assembly in S. cerevisiae but allows CO formation independently of the Msh4/5 complex but that depend on Zip2/4/Spo16 and Mlh1/3 for their resolution. Overall, these results suggests that L. lactis Zip1 at least retained ancestral functions shared with S. cerevisiae Zip1. However, it is not possible to conclude if the lack of full complementation of L. lactis Zip1 in S. cerevisiae comes from functional divergence or simply by the inability of L. lactis Zip1 to function properly in a heterologous context.

      Minor points:

      No page number, no main Figure number. It is hard to review this paper. [R] We regret the oversight. Figure numbers, Line numbers and Page numbers have been added.

      References: In some cases, in the Introduction, the authors referred to review papers such as Pyatnitskaya et al. (2019) for ZMM proteins while in the other parts, they referred to original papers; for example, three papers for Mlh1-Mlh3. If the number of references is not limited, original papers should be cited in the text.

      [R] We regret this omission. Original papers have now been included in the citations.

      Figure 3A, page 9, second paragraph: When the authors compared CO and NCO densities, it would be nice to show P-values for the comparison.

      [R] p-values have now been added to the updated figure.

      Please show a ratio of CO to NCO in each yeast in Figure 3B in the second paragraph of page 9 in the main text.

      [R] The ratios have now been included in the figure for both the CO:NCO ratios and CO:corrected_NCO ratios, in the main text and figure legends.

      Figure S5 and page 7, the first paragraph and page 9, third paragraph: CO/NCO densities (negative correlation to chromosome sizes) in S. cerevisiae should be checked with or without short chromosomes (I, III, and VI), which show very unique regulation of meiotic DSB formation (see Murakami et al. Nature 2020).

      [R] Even excluding the small chromosomes, the size dependent trend persists for S. cerevisiae and S. paradoxus.

      Table S7: Please add the S. cerevisiae gene name such as ZIP1 next to S. cerevisiae orthologs such as YDR285W. Moreover, please explain the column in detail or clarify the data. What does "meiosis" mean here? For example, YJL074C is SMC3, which is expressed in mitosis as well as in meiosis. The same is true for YGL163C, which is RAD54, which plays a minor role in meiosis, but plays a critical in mitotic DSB repair.

      [R] We corrected Table S7 as desired by systematically including the standardized gene names.

      The Gene Ontology (GO) annotation is a statement about the function of a particular gene. It offers a structured framework and a comprehensive set of concepts to describe the functions of gene products across all organisms. It is specifically crafted to support the computational representation of biological systems. In our specific case, we only looked at genes with the gene ontology annotation "meiosis". Together, these statements comprise a "snapshot" of current biological knowledge and is by no means absolute. This has been detailed in the supplementary Table S7.

      Reviewer #2 (Significance (Required)):

      This study provides the landscape of meiotic recombination in non-Saccharomyces yeast, Kluyveromyces lactis. The genome-wide recombination map in K. lactis shows lower crossover frequencies with weaker crossover interference than those in S. cerevisiae. Overall, the experiments and informatic analyses have been done in good quality and the results are convincing. The paper provides additional new information on the landscape of meiotic recombination in different yeast species, particularly in terms of the evolution of meiotic recombination. These results are of great interest to researchers in the field of meiotic recombination and evolution of meiosis.

      __Reviewer #3 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)): __

      Dutta et al. have compiled a genome-wide meiotic recombination map for Kluyveromyces lactis and compared it to a compilation of meiotic recombination maps for four other species, two of which (Lachancea kluyveri and Lachancea waltii), like K. lactis, predate the genome duplication event that produced the other two (Saccharomyces cerevisiae and S. paradoxus). Meiosis in many species studied (including metazoans and plants) shows control over the number and distribution of crossovers, which are critical for faithful chromosome segregation during meiosis. This takes the form of crossover interference, where crossovers are spaced more evenly than expected by chance, and crossover homeostasis, where many fewer chromosomes lack a crossover than is expected by chance. While both of the post-duplication species show both crossover interference and homeostasis, none of the pre-duplication species show crossover homeostasis, and crossover interference is very weak. In two cases (K. lactis and L. waltii), this can be explained by mutational loss of a few of the genes (called the ZMM genes) that promote meiotic crossovers in many species. However, L. kluyveribehavior cannot be explained in this way. Recombination hotspots are present but are not shared between the pre-duplication species or between the pre- and post-duplication species, perhaps not surprising for species that diverged more that 100 million years ago. Overall, this work will be a useful contribution to our understanding of the different possible flavors of meiotic recombination mechanisms and control that are possible (and, one might add, promote long-term species viability). A) Evaluation, reproducibility and clarity The work presented in this paper is straightforward and unimpeachable and will largely be of interest to those studying meiotic recombination, be it mechanistic studies or studies of the implications for population genetics. The analysis is technically correct, although there are some aspects where a slightly different emphasis should be considered (see comments below). However, the data and the analysis could stand as they currently are, without further revision.

      Suggestions are below. 1. (trivial) it would have been useful if pages and lines were numbered.

      [R] We regret the oversight. Figure numbers, Line numbers and Page numbers have been added.

      "Across the 205 meioses...". In general, it would be desirable to apply compensation for the fact that NCOs and COs are differently detected. Since, in K. lactis, 35% of COs are not accompanied by detectable gene conversion, it seems reasonable to apply a correction to measured NCOs here and throughout the paper, regardless of the species. For example, if one assumes that 35% of NCOs are not detected, how does this affect estimates of chromosomes that do not appear to have undergone interhomolog recombination? Estimates of CO/NCO bias? In a similar vein, if the CO event is not considered (just the conversion events associated with it), how does this affect measures of conversion tract lengths in COs and NCOs?

      [R] We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We have performed the correction for the NCO estimates as described in Mancera et al. 2008, on a per tetrad basis across all the species. The fraction of missed NCOs were 7%, 34%, 30%, 23% and 25% respectively for S. paradoxus, S. cerevisiae, K. lactis, L. waltii and L. kluyveri. The fraction of missed NCOs depend upon the parental marker density. In addition, we performed the CO:NCO bias analysis both with the detected and the corrected NCO frequencies and the trends remain unchanged (Now included in figure 3). Finally, we refrain from using the corrected NCO frequencies while reporting the NCO frequencies (Table 1, main text) to maintain uniformity with our previous work and since, these corrections do not alter any results.

      It might be useful to report recombination event frequencies in terms of events/chromosome, as this, rather than event/unit distance, is functionally more relevant. In the same vein, it might be useful to consider total event homeostasis, in addition to just crossover homeostasis.

      [R] This has been updated as suggested. .

      An interesting observation is that two of the three pre-duplication species clearly at one time had a full complement of ZMM genes but lost some due to mutation. Have there ever been attempts to detect either synaptonemal complex or axial elements in these species?

      [R] This is related to point #8 from reviewer 1 and to the major point of reviewer 2 (please see above).

      To our knowledge, cytological observations of synaptonemal complex (SC) or axial elements have been performed in L. kluyverionly by us and the SC is clearly visible (Legrand et al 2024).

      However, it is key to remind here that K. lactis axis protein encoding genes HOP1 and RED1 have been cloned by the Roeder's lab by functional complementation of S. cerevisiae corresponding mutants, supporting the functional conservation of these genes (Smith and Roeder 2000). Finally, as mentioned above, K. lactis Zip1 retained at least some function of the ancestral Zip1 protein that are also shared by the S. cerevisiae protein (Voelkel-Meiman 2015).

      The observation of elevated evolutionary rates in ZMM genes is also intriguing, but it would help if "dN/dS ratio" was defined.

      [R] It is now defined in the text.

      The observation of frequent E0 chromosomes is taken to suggest efficient achiasmate segregation; has the "corrected" NCO frequency been considered? Do the different frequencies of E0 chromosomes predict the different spore viabilities seen between species?

      [R] E0 is not predictive at all of the spore viability as we have shown in previous studies (see L. kluyveri - Brion et al. 2017, L. waltii-Dutreux et al. 2023). In addition, this has been shown is S. cerevisiae as well (Nishant et al. 2009).

      Figure 3A-what would this look like if it were plotted as "Events per chromosome" rather than per megabase?

      [R] We changed the figure (now figure 2A) and plotted as events per chromosome to show the variability of events at the chromosome level.

      Figure legends tend to be unreasonably terse, which makes figures more difficult to interpret.

      [R] This has been updated as suggested.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      (1) Only one PITAR siRNA was tested in majority of the experiments, which compromises the validity of the results.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. We have now used two siRNAs to demonstrate PITAR functions in various assays. In the revised manuscript, we carried out additional experiments with two siRNAs, and the results are presented in Figures 2C, D, F, G, H, I, and J; Figures 5A, B, Supplementary Figure 2B, C, D, E, and F.

      (2) Some results are inconsistent. For example, Fig 2G indicates that PITAR siRNA caused G1 arrest. However, PITAR overexpression in the same cell line did not show any effect on cell cycle progression in Fig 5I.

      The reason for the fact that PITAR silencing showed a robust G1 arrest, unlike PITAR overexpression, is as follows. Since glioma cells overexpress PITAR (which keeps the p53 suppressed), silencing PITAR (which will elevate p53 levels) in glioma cells shows a robust phenotype in cell cycle profile (in the form of increased G1 arrest). In contrast, the overexpression of PITAR in glioma cells fails to show robust changes in the cell cycle profile because glioma cells already have high levels of PITAR.

      (3) The conclusion that PITAR inactivates p53 through regulating TRIM28, which is highlighted in the title of the manuscript, is not supported by convincing results. Although the authors showed that a PITAR siRNA increased while PITAR overexpression decreased p53 level, the siRNA only marginally increased the stability of p53 (Fig 5E). The p53 ubiquitination level was barely affected by PITAR overexpression in Fig 5F.

      We disagree with the fact that PITAR silencing only marginally increased the stability of p53. In the cycloheximide experiment in Figure 5E, the half-life of p53 is increased by 60 % (50 mins to 120 mins), which is quite significant in altering the DNA damage response by p53. Further, we also want to point out that the other arm of p53 degradation by Mdm2 remains intact under these conditions. We also provide an improved p53 ubiquitination western blot in the revised version (Figure 5F). 

      (4) To convincingly demonstrate that PITAR regulates p53 through TRIM28, the authors need to show that this regulation is impaired/compromised in TRIM28-knockout conditions. The authors only showed that TRIM28 overexpression suppressed PITAR siRNA-induced increase of p53, which is not sufficient.

      We thank the reviewer. In the revised manuscript, we demonstrate that PITAR overexpression fails to inhibit p53 in TRIM28 silenced cells (Supplementary Figure 5G; Figure 5K, L, M, N).

      (5) Note that only one cell line was investigated in Fig 5.

      In revised manuscript, the impact of PITAR silencing and PITAR overexpression on p53 functions are demontsrared for one more glioma cell line (Supplemenatry Figure 5B, C, D, and E).

      (6) Another major weakness of this manuscript is that the authors did not provide any evidence indicating that the glioblastoma-promoting activities of PITAR were mediated by its regulation of p53 or TRIM28 (Fig 6 and Fig 7). Thus, the regulation of glioblastoma growth and the regulation of TRIM28/p53 appear to be disconnected.

      We would like to respectfully disagree with the reviewer on this particular point.  We have indeed provided the following evidence in the first version of the manuscript: glioblastoma-promoting activities of PITAR were mediated by its regulation of p53 or TRIM28.

      (1) To show the importance of p53:

      We show that PITAR silencing failed to inhibit the colony growth of p53-silenced U87 glioma cells (U87/shp53#1). We also show that while PITAR silencing decreased TRIM28 RNA levels in U87/shNT and U87/shp53#1 glioma cells, it failed to increase CDKN1A and MDM2 (p53 targets) at the RNA level in U87/shp53#1 cells unlike in U87/siNT cells (Supplementary Figure 6 Panels A, B, C, and D). 

      (2) To show the importance of TRIM28 and p53:

      The importance of p53 is also demonstrated in the context of patient-derived GSC lines. We demonstrate that PITAR silencing-induced reduction in the neurosphere growth (WT p53 containing patient-derived GSC line) is accompanied by a reduction in TRIM28 RNA and an increase in the CDKN1A RNA without a change in p53 RNA levels (Supplementary Figure 7 Panels A, B, C, D, and E). We also demonstrate that PITAR overexpression-induced neurosphere growth is accompanied by an increase in the TRIM28 RNA, and a decrease in CDKN1A RNA without a change in p53 RNA levels (Supplementary Figure 7 Panels F, G, H, and I). However, PITAR silencing failed to decrease neurosphere growth in mutant p53 containing GSC line (MGG8) (Supplementary Figure 7 Panels J, K, L, M, N, and F).

      (3) We show that the TRIM28 protein level is drastically reduced in small tumors formed by U87/siPITAR cells (Supplementary Figure 7 Panel E).

      (4) We show that glioma tumors formed by U87/PITAR OE cells express high levels of TRIM28 protein but reduced levels of p21 protein (Supplementary Figure 7 Panel B).

      Further, we did additional experiments to prove the importance of TRIM28.

      In the revised manuscript, we have carried out an additional experiment to prove the requirement of TRIM28 for tumor-promoting functions of PITAR overexpression. Earlier, we have shown that exogenous overexpression of PITAR promotes glioma tumor growth and imparts resistance to Temozolomide chemotherapy (Figure 7F and G; Supplementary Figure 9A and B). In the revised manuscript, we show that the tumor growth-promoting function of PITAR overexpression requires TRIM28. U87-Luc/PITAR OE cells formed a larger tumor compared to U87-Luc/VC cells (Figure 7H, and I; compare red line with blue line). U87-Luc/shTRIM28 cells formed very small-sized tumors (Figure 7H, and I; compare green line with blue line). Further, PITAR overexpression (U87-Luc/PITAR OE) was less efficient in promoting glioma tumor growth in TRIM28 silenced cells (Figure 7H, and I; compare pink line with red line). Thus, we prove that, as a whole, TRIM28 mediates the tumor growth-promoting functions of PITAR.

      (7) It is not clear what kind of message the authors tried to deliver in Fig 7F/G. Based on the authors' hypothesis, DNA-damaging agents like TMZ would induce PITAR to inactivate p53, which would compromise TMZ's anti-cancer activity. However, the data show that TMZ was very effective in the inhibition of U87 growth. The authors may need to test whether PITAR downregulation, which would increase p53 activity, have any effects on TMZ-insensitive tumors. Such results are more therapeutically relevant.

      Reviewer #1 rightly pointed out that TMZ induces PITAR expression, which should compromise TMZ's anti-cancer activity.

      We demonstrate the same as below:

      Figure 7F&G demonstrates the following two facts:1. PITAR overexpression increases the glioma-tumor growth (Figure 7G, compare red line with the blue line), 2. PITAR overexpressing glioma tumors are resistant to TMZ chemotherapy (Figure 7G, compare the pink line with the green line).

      In addition, Figure 7 F and G also demonstrate that TMZ treatment of tumors formed by U87/VC glioma cells inhibited the growth but not eliminated the tumor growth completely (compare pink line with blue line). We believe that the inability of TMZ to eliminate the tumor growth completely is because of the chemoresistance imparted by the DNA damage induced PITAR.

      Further, in Figure 2I, we indeed show that PITAR-silenced cells are more sensitive to TMZ and Adriamycin chemotherapy.

      (8) Lastly, the model presented in Fig 7H is confusing. It is not clear what the exact role of PITAR in the DNA damage response based on this model. If DNA damage would induce PITAR expression, this would lead to inactivation of p53 as revealed by this manuscript. However, DNA damage is known to activate p53. Do the authors want to imply that PITAR induction by DNA damage would help to bring down the p53 level at the end of DNA damage response? The presented data do not support this role unfortunately.

      We respect the views and questions raised by the reviewer.

      We would like explain as below the importance of our model.

      Yes, it is true that DNA damage induces p53. We show here that DNA damage also induces PITAR in a p53-independent manner, which, in turn, inhibits p53. Here is our explanation. Even though DNA damage activates p53, there exists an autoregulatory negative feedback loop that controls the extent and duration of p53 response to DNA damage (Wu et al., 1993; Haupt et al., 1997; Kubbutat, Jones and Vousden, 1997; Zhang et al., 2009).  It is proposed that the p53-Mdm2 feedback loop generates a “digital clock” that releases well-timed quanta of p53 until the damage is repaired or the cell dies (Lahave et al., 2004). In addition, it has also been shown that TRIM28, through its association with Mdm2, also contributes to p53 inactivation (Wang et al., 2005b; Czerwińska, Mazurek, and Wiznerowicz, 2017).

      Based on the above reports and our current work, we propose that DNA damage-induced PITAR, through its ability to increase the TRIM28 levels, contributes to the control of the DNA damage response of p53 along with Mdm-2. The difference is as follows: Since Mdm-2 is also a transcriptional target of p53, the p53-Mdm-2 axis is an autoregulatory negative feedback loop to control the DNA damage response by p53. In contrast, PITAR is not a transcriptional target of p53, and DNA damage-induced activation of PITAR is p53-independent. Hence, the PITAR-TRIM28 axis in controlling the DNA damage response of p53 creates an Incoherent feedforward regulatory network.  The experimental evidence provided in the revised manuscript is as follows: 1) We have already (the first version of the manuscript) shown that exogenous overexpression of PITAR significantly inhibits DNA damage-induced p53 (Figures 6A, B, C, and D). 2) In the revised manuscript, we show that the DNA damage response of p53 (duration and extent of p53 activation after a pulse of ionizing radiation) in PITAR-silenced cells follows similar kinetics in terms of duration, but the extent of p53 activation was much stronger (Supplementary figures 8H, I, J, and K).  This is because the TRIM28 component in TRIM28/Mdm-2 axis is compromised as PITAR silencing reduces the TRIM28 levels. 3) We also demonstrate that DNA damage-induced TRIM28 is dependent on PITAR (Figure 6K; Supplementary Figure 5G)

      Reviewer #1(Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Fig 7A, what is the explanation for the observation that tumors disappeared in most of the mice in the siPITAR group? Did the authors check if apoptosis was induced here?

      We agree to the point that the lack of tumor growth in the siPITAR group is likely due to the induction of apoptosis. We would like to point out that in vitro experiments indeed demonstrate that PITAR silencing induces apoptosis in Figure 2H and Supplementary Figure 2F.

      (2) The authors need to explain why Fig 6 used a cell line different from other experiments. It would be better to check other cell lines.

      The purpose of RG5 and MGG8 is as follows. 1) We wanted to establish the growth-promoting functions of PITAR in patient-derived GSC lines. 2) We also wanted to show the importance of WT p53 for the growth-promoting functions of PITAR.

      However, in the revised manuscript we moved this portion under the subsection “PITAR inhibits p53 protein levels by its association with TRIM28 mRNA“.

      Further,the experiments related to DNA damage induced activation of PITAR in p53-independent manner and its impact on DNA damage response by p53 is moved to a new section entitled “PITAR is induced by DNA damage in a p53-independent manner, which in turn diminishes the DNA damage response by p53”

      (3) It would be more convincing if the authors could test more p53 target genes in addition to p21.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment and the specific suggestions for checking additional p53 targets. In the revised manuscript, we have checked the MDM2 transcript levels in Supplementary Figure 6D. 

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) In the text, they mentioned " Figure 4J". There is no Figure 4J in Figure 4. It may be Figure 4K.

      We thank reviewer #2. We corrected this information in the revised manuscript.

      (2) The molecular weight markers in Western blots were missed in several Figure panels, including Figure 4J, Figure 5K, and Supple. Figure 3B, Supple. Figure 5G, H, Supple. Figures 6A and 7A.

      We thank reviewer #2, and we have included the molecular weight markers in all the mentioned figures.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This manuscript aims at a quantitative model of how visual stimuli, given as time-dependent light intensity signals, are transduced into electrical currents in photoreceptors of macaque and mouse retina. Based on prior knowledge of the fundamental biophysical steps of the transduction cascade and a relatively small number of free parameters, the resulting model is found to fairly accurately capture measured photoreceptor currents under a range of diverse visual stimuli and with parameters that are (mostly) identical for photoreceptors of the same type.

      Furthermore, as the model is invertible, the authors show that it can be used to derive visual stimuli that result in a desired, predetermined photoreceptor response. As demonstrated with several examples, this can be used to probe how the dynamics of phototransduction affect downstream signals in retinal ganglion cells, for example, by manipulating the visual stimuli in such a way that photoreceptor signals are linear or have reduced or altered adaptation. This innovative approach had already previously been used by the same lab to probe the contribution of photoreceptor adaptation to differences between On and Off parasol cells (Yu et al, eLife 2022), but the present paper extends this by describing and testing the photoreceptor model more generally and in both macaque and mouse as well as for both rods and cones.

      Strengths:

      The presentation of the model is thorough and convincing, and the ability to capture responses to stimuli as different as white noise with varying mean intensity and flashes with a common set of model parameters across cells is impressive. Also, the suggested approach of applying the model to modify visual stimuli that effectively alter photoreceptor signal processing is thought-provoking and should be a powerful tool for future investigations of retinal circuit function. The examples of how this approach can be applied are convincing and corroborate, for example, previous findings that adaptation to ambient light in the primate retina, as measured by responses to light flashes, mostly originates in photoreceptors.

      Weaknesses:

      In the current form of the presentation, it doesn't become fully clear how easily the approach is applicable at different mean light levels and where exactly the limits for the model inversion are at high frequency. Also, accessibility and applicability by others could be strengthened by including more details about how parameters are fixed and what consensus values are selected.

      Thank you - indeed a central goal of writing this paper was to provide a tool that could be easily used by other laboratories. We have clarified and expanded four points in this regard: (1) we have stated more clearly that mean light levels are naturally part of inversion process, and hence the approach can be applied across a broad range of light levels (lines 292-297); (2) we have expanded our analysis of the high frequency limits to the inversion and added that expanded figure to the main text (new Fig 5); (3) we have included additional detail about our calibration procedures, including our calibration code, to facilitate transfer to other labs; and, (4) we have detailed the procedure for identification of consensus parameters (line 172-182, 191-199 and Methods section starting on line 831).

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This manuscript proposes a modeling approach to capture nonlinear processes of photocurrents in mammalian (mouse, primate) rod and cone photoreceptors. The ultimate goal is to separate these nonlinearities at the level of photocurrent from subsequent nonlinear processing that occurs in retinal circuitry. The authors devised a strategy to generate stimuli that cancel the major nonlinearities in photocurrents. For example, modified stimuli would generate genuine sinusoidal modulation of the photocurrent, whereas a sinusoidal stimulus would not (i.e., because of asymmetries in the photocurrent to light vs. dark changes); and modified stimuli that could cancel the effects of light adaptation at the photocurrent level. Using these modified stimuli, one could record downstream neurons, knowing that any nonlinearities that emerge must happen post-photocurrent. This could be a useful method for separating nonlinear mechanisms across different stages of retinal processing, although there are some apparent limitations to the overall strategy.

      Strengths:

      (1) This is a very quantitative and thoughtful approach and addresses a long-standing problem in the field: determining the location of nonlinearities within a complex circuit, including asymmetric responses to different polarities of contrast, adaptation, etc.

      (2) The study presents data for two primary models of mammalian retina, mouse, and primate, and shows that the basic strategy works in each case.

      (3) Ideally, the present results would generalize to the work in other labs and possibly other sensory systems. How easy would this be? Would one lab have to be able to record both receptor and post-receptor neurons? Would in vitro recordings be useful for interpreting in vivo studies? It would be useful to comment on how well the current strategy could be generalized.

      We agree that generalization to work in other laboratories is important, and indeed that was a motivation for writing this as a methods paper. The key issue in such generalization is calibration. We have expanded our discussion of our calibration procedures and included that code as part of the github repository associated with the paper. Figure 10 (previously Figure 9) was added to illustrate generalization. We believe that the approach we introduce here should generalize to in vivo conditions. We have expanded the text on these issues in the Discussion (sections starting on line 689 and 757).

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The model is limited to describing photoreceptor responses at the level of photocurrents, as opposed to the output of the cell, which takes into account voltage-dependent mechanisms, horizontal cell feedback, etc., as the authors acknowledge. How would one distinguish nonlinearities that emerge at the level of post-photocurrent processing within the photoreceptor as opposed to downstream mechanisms? It would seem as if one is back to the earlier approach, recording at multiple levels of the circuit (e.g., Dunn et al., 2006, 2007).

      Indeed the current model is limited to a description of rod and cone photocurrents. Nonetheless, the transformation of light inputs to photocurrents can be strongly nonlinear, and such nonlinearities can be difficult to untangle from those occurring late in visual processing. Hence, we feel that the ability to capture and manipulate nonlinearities in the photocurrents is an important step. We have expanded Figure 10 to show an additional example of how manipulation of nonlinearities in phototransduction can give insight into downstream responses. We have also noted in text that an important next step would be to include inner segment mechanisms (section starting on line 661); doing so will require not only characterization of the current-to-voltage transformation, but also horizontal cell feedback and properties of the cone output synapse.

      (2) It would have been nice to see additional confirmations of the approach beyond what is presented in Figure 9. This is limited by the sample (n = 1 horizontal cell) and the number of conditions (1). It would have been interesting to at least see the same test at a dimmer light level, where the major adaptation mechanisms are supposed to occur beyond the photoreceptors (Dunn et al., 2007).

      We have added an additional experiment to this figure (now Figure 10) which we feel nicely exemplifies the approach. The approach that we introduce here really only makes sense at light levels where the photoreceptors are adapting; at lower light levels the photoreceptors respond near-linearly, so our “modified” and “original” stimuli as in Figure 10 (previously Figure 9) would be very similar (and post-phototransduction nonlinearities are naturally isolated at these light levels).

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors propose to invert a mechanistic model of phototransduction in mouse and rod photoreceptors to derive stimuli that compensate for nonlinearities in these cells. They fit the model to a large set of photoreceptor recordings and show in additional data that the compensation works. This can allow the exclusion of photoreceptors as a source of nonlinear computation in the retina, as desired to pinpoint nonlinearities in retinal computation. Overall, the recordings made by the authors are impressive and I appreciate the simplicity and elegance of the idea. The data support the authors' conclusions but the presentation can be improved.

      Strengths:

      -  The authors collected an impressive set of recordings from mouse and primate photoreceptors, which is very challenging to obtain.

      -  The authors propose to exploit mechanistic mathematical models of well-understood phototransduction to design light stimuli that compensate for nonlinearities.

      -  The authors demonstrate through additional experiments that their proposed approach works.

      Weaknesses:

      -  The authors use numerical optimization for fitting the parameters of the photoreceptor model to the data. Recently, the field of simulation-based inference has developed methods to do so, including quantification of the uncertainty of the resulting estimates. Since the authors state that two different procedures were used due to the different amounts of data collected from different cells, it may be worthwhile to rather test these methods, as implemented e.g. in the SBI toolbox (https://joss.theoj.org/papers/10.21105/joss.02505). This would also allow them to directly identify dependencies between parameters, and obtain associated uncertainty estimates. This would also make the discussion of how well constrained the parameters are by the data or how much they vary more principled because the SBI uncertainty estimates could be used.

      Thank you - we have improved how we describe and report parameter values in several ways. First, the previous text erroneously stated that we used different fitting procedures for different cell types - but the real difference was in the amount of data and range of stimuli we had available between rods and cones. The fitting procedure itself was the same for all cell types. We have clarified this along with other details of the model fitting both in the main text (lines 121-130) and in the Methods (section starting on line 832). We also collected parameter values and estimates of allowed ranges in two tables. Finally, we used sloppy modeling to identify parameters that could covary with relatively small impact on model performance; we added a description of this analysis to the Methods (section starting on line 903).

      -  In several places, the authors refer the reader to look up specific values e.g. of parameters in the associated MATLAB code. I don't think this is appropriate, important values/findings/facts should be in the paper (lines 142, 114, 168). I would even find the precise values that the authors measure interesting, so I think the authors should show them in a figure/table. In general, I would like to see also the average variance explained by different models summarized in a table and precise mean/median values for all important quantities (like the response amplitude ratios in Figures 6/9).

      We have added two tables with these parameters values and estimates of allowable ranges. We also added points to show the mean (and SD) across cells to the population figures and added those numerical values to the figure legends throughout.

      -  If the proposed model is supposed to model photoreceptor adaptation on a longer time scale, I fail to see why this can be an invertible model. Could the authors explain this better? I suspect that the model is mainly about nonlinearities as the authors also discuss in lines 360ff.

      For the stimuli that we use we see little or no contribution of slow adaptation in phototransduction. We have expanded the description of this point in the text and referred to Angueyra et al (2022) which looks at this issue in more detail for primate cones (paragraph starting on line 280).

      -  The important Figures 6-8 are very hard to read, as it is not easy to see what the stimulus is, the modified stimulus, the response with and without modification, what the desired output looks like, and what is measured for part B. Reworking these figures would be highly recommended.

      We have reworked all of the figures to make the traces clearer.

      -  If I understand Figure 6 correctly, part B is about quantifying the relative size of the response to the little first flash to the little second flash. While clearly, the response amplitude of the second flash is only 50% for the second flash compared to the first flash in primate rod and cones in the original condition, the modified stimulus seems to overcompensate and result in 130% response for the second flash. How do the authors explain this? A similar effect occurs in Figure 9, which the authors should also discuss.

      Indeed, in those instances the modified stimulus does appear to overcompensate. We suspect this is due to differences in sensitivity of the specific cells probed for these experiments and those used in the model construction. We now describe this limitation in more detail (lines 524-526). A similar point comes up for those experiments in which we speed the photoreceptor responses (new FIgure 9B), and we similarly note that the cells used to test those manipulations differed systematically from those used to fit the model (lines 558-560).

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I only have a few minor questions and suggestions for clarification.

      It hasn't become fully clear to me how general the model is when different mean light levels (on long-time scales) are considered. Are there slow adaptation processes not captured in the model that affect model performance? And how should one go about setting the mean light level when, for example, probing ganglion cells with a stimulus obtained through model inversion? Should it work to add an appropriate DC component to the current that is provided as input to the inverted model? (Presumably, deriving a stimulus and then just adding background illumination should not work, or could this be a good approximation, given a steady state that is adapted to the background?)

      We have clarified in the main text that slow adaptation does not contribute substantially to responses to the range of stimuli we explored (lines 281-289). We have also clarified that the stimulus in the model inversion is specified in isomerizations per second - so the mean value of the stimulus is automatically included in the model inversion (lines 293-298).

      Furthermore, a caveat for the model inversion seems to be the potential amplification of high-frequency noise. The suggested application of a cutoff temporal frequency seems appropriate, but data are shown only for a few example cells. Is this consistent across cells? (Given that performance between, e.g., mouse cones can vary considerably according to Fig. 4B?) I would also like to suggest moving the corresponding Supplemental Figure (4.1) into the main part of the manuscript, as it seems quite important.

      We have added population analysis to the new Figure 5 (which was Figure 4 - Figure Supplement 1). We have also clarified that the amplification of high frequency noise is an issue only when we try to apply model inversion to measured stimuli. When we use model inversion to identify stimuli that elicit desired responses, the target responses are computed from a linear model that has no noise, so this is not a concern in applications like those in Figures 6-10.

      Also, could the authors explain more clearly what the effect of the normalization of the estimated stimulus by the power of the true stimulus is? Does this simply reduce power at high frequency or also affect frequencies below the suggested cutoff (where the stimulus reconstruction should presumably be accurate even without normalization)?

      Indeed this normalization reduces high frequency power and has little impact on low frequencies where the inversion is accurate; this is now noted in the text (line 363). As for amplification of high frequency noise (previous comment), the normalization by the stimulus power is only needed when inverting measured responses (i.e. responses with noise) and is omitted when we are identifying stimuli that elicit desired responses (e.g. in Figures 6-10).

      While the overall performance of the model to predict photoreceptor currents is impressive, it seems that particular misses occur for flashes right after a step in background illumination and for the white-noise responses at low background illumination (e.g. Figure 1B). Is that systematic, and if so what might be missing in the model?

      Indeed the model (at least with fixed parameters across stimuli) appears to systematically miss a few aspects of the photoreceptor responses. These include the latency of the response to a bright flash and the early flashes in the step + flash protocol in Figure 1B. Model errors for the variable mean noise stimulus (Figure 2) showed little dependence on time even when responses were sorted by mean light level and by previous mean level. Model errors did not show a clear systematic dependence on light level; this likely reflects, at least in part, the use of mean-square-error to identify model parameters. We have expanded our discussion of these systematic errors in the text (lines 164-166).

      I was also wondering whether this is related to the fact that in Figure 9B, the gain in the modified condition is actually systematically higher when there is more background light. Do the authors think that this could be a real effect or rather an overcompensation from the model? (By the way, is it specified what "Delta-gain" really is, i.e., ratio or normalized difference?)

      We suspect this is an issue with the sensitivity of the specific cells for which we did these experiments (i.e. variability in the gamma parameter between cells). This sensitivity varies between cells, and such variations are likely to place the strongest limitation on our ability to use this approach to manipulate responses in different retinas. We now note those issues in the Results (lines 523-526, 557-559 and 591-593) with reference to Figures 9 (previously Figure 8) and 10 (previously Figure 9), and describe this limitation more generally in the Discussion (section starting on line 649). We have also changed delta-gain to response ratio, which seemed more intuitive.

      Maybe I missed this, but it seems that the parameter gamma is fitted in a cell-type-specific fashion (e.g. line 163), but then needs to be fixed for held-out cells. How was this done? Is there much variability of gamma between cells?

      There is variability in gamma between cells, and this likely explains some of systematic differences between data and model (see above and Methods, lines 902-903). For the consensus models in Figure 2B, gamma was allowed to vary for each cell while the remaining consensus model parameters were fixed. Gamma was set equal to the mean value across cells for model inversion (i.e. for all of the analyses in Figures 4-10). We have described the fitting procedure in considerably more detail in the revised Methods (starting on line 832).

      For completeness, it would be nice to have the applied consensus model parameters in the manuscript rather than just in the Matlab code (especially since the code has not been part of the submission). Also, some notes on how the numerical integration of the differential equations was done would be nice (time step size?).

      We have added tables with consensus parameters and estimates of the sensitivity of model predictions to each parameter. We have also added additional details about the numerical approaches (including the time step) to Methods.

      Similarly, it would be nice to explicitly see the relationships that are used to fix certain model parameters (lines 705ff). And can the constants k and n (lines 709-710) be assumed identical for different species and receptor types?

      We have added more details to the model fitting to the methods, including the use of steady-state conditions to hold certain parameters fixed (lines 862 and 866). We are not aware of any direct comparisons of k and n across species and receptor types. We have noted that model performance was not improved by modest changes in these parameters (due to compensation by other model parameters). More generally, we have explained how some parameters trade for others and hence the logic of fixing some even when exact values were not available.

      For the previous measurements of m and beta (lines 712-713), is there a reference or source?

      We have added references for these values.

      Did the authors check for differences in the model parameters between cone types (e.g., S vs. M)?

      We did not include S cones here. They are harder to record from and collecting a fairly large data set across a range of stimuli would be challenging. Our previous work shows that S cones have slower responses than L and M cones, and this would certainly be reflected in differences in model parameters. We have noted this in the text (Methods, line 808-810).

      For the stated flash responses time-to-peak (lines 183-184), is this for a particular light intensity with no background illumination?

      Those are flashes from darkness - now noted in the text.

      Figure 2 - Supplement 1 doesn't have panel labels A and B, unlike the legend.

      Fixed - thank you.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Fig. 2B - for some cells, the consensus model seems to fit better than the individual model. How is this possible?

      This was mostly an error on our part (we inadvertently included responses to more stimuli in fitting the individual models, which slightly hampered their performance). Even with this correction, however, a few cells remain for which the consensus model outperforms and individual model. We believe this is because there is more data to constrain model parameters for the consensus models (since they are fit to all cells at the same time), and that can compensate for improvements associated with customizing parameters to specific cells.

      (2) Fig. 2 Supplement 1, it would be useful to see a blow-up of the data in an inset, as in Fig. 2B.

      Thanks - added.

      (3) Line 400 - this paragraph could include additional quantification and statistics to back up claims re 'substantially reduced', 'considerably lower'.

      We quantify that in the next sentence by computing the mean-square-error between responses and sinusoidal fits (also in Figure 7B, which now includes statistics as well). We have made that connection more direct in the text.

      (4) Maybe a supplement to Fig. 8 could show the changes to the stimulus required to alter the kinetics in both directions - to give more insight into part B., especially.

      Good suggestion - we have added the stimuli to all of the panels of the figure (now Figure 9).

      (5) Fig. 8B - in 'Speed response up' condition - there seems to be error in the model for the decay time of the response - especially for the 'original' condition, which is not quantified in 8C. Was it generally difficult to predict responses to flashes?

      That seems largely to reflect that the cells used for those experiments had faster initial kinetics than the average cells (responses to the control traces are also faster than model predictions in these cells - black traces in Figure 9B). We have added this to the text.

      (6) Line 678, possibly notes that 405 nm equally activates S and M photopigments in mice, since most of the cones co-express the two photopigments (Rohlich et al., 1994; Applebury et al., 2000; Wang et al., 2011).

      Thanks - we have added this (lines 827-829).

      (7) The discussion could include a broader description of the various approaches to identifying nonlinearities within retinal circuitry, which include (incomplete list): recording at multiple levels of the circuit (e.g., Kim and Rieke 2001; Rieke, 2001; Baccus and Meister, 2002; Dunn et al., 2006; 2007; Beaudoin et al., 2007; Baccus et al., 2008); recording currents vs. spiking responses in a ganglion cell (e.g., Kim and Rieke, 2001; Zaghloul et al., 2005; Cui et al., 2016); neural network modeling approaches (e.g., Maheswaranathan et al., 2023); optogenetic approaches to studying filtering/nonlinear behavior at synapses (e.g., Pottackal et al., 2020; 2021).

      Good suggestion - we have added this to the final paragraph of the Discussion.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      -  I am personally not a fan of the style: "... as Figure 4A shows..." or comparable and much prefer a direct "We observe that X is the case (Figure 4A)". If the authors agree, they may want to revise their paper in this way.

      We have revised the text to avoid the “... as Figure xx shows” construction. We have retained multiple instances which follow a “Figure xx shows that …” construction (which is both active rather than passive and does not use a personal pronoun).

      -  I am not a fan of the title. Light-adaption clamp caters only to a very specialized audience.

      We have changed the title to “Predictably manipulating photoreceptor light responses to reveal their role in downstream visual responses.”

      -  The parameter fitting procedure should not only be described in Matlab code, but in the paper.

      Thanks - we have expanded this in the Methods considerably (section starting on line 832).

      -  The authors should elaborate on why different fitting procedures were used.

      We did not describe that issue clearly. The fitting procedures used across cells were identical, but we had different data available for different cell types due to experimental limitations. We have substantially revised that part of the main text to clarify this issue (paragraph starting on line 121).

      -  The authors state in line 126 that the input stimulus is supposed to mimic eye movements mouse, monkey, or human? Please clarify.

      Thanks - we have changed this sentence to “abrupt and frequent changes in intensity that characterize natural vision.”

      -  Please improve the figure style. For example, labels should be in consistent capitalization and ideally use complete words (e.g. Figure 2B, 4B, and others).

      We have made numerous small changes in the figures to make them more consistent.

      -  Is the fraction of variance calculated on held-out-data? Linear models should be added to Figure 2B.

      The fraction of variance explained was not calculated on held out data because of limitations in the duration of our recordings. Given the small number of free parameters, and the ability of the model to capture held out cells, we believe that the model generalizes well. We have added a supplemental figure with linear model performance (Figure 2 - Figure Supplement 2).

      -  Fig. 9A is lacking bipolar cell and amacrine cell labels. Currently, it looks like HC is next to the BC in the schematic.

      Thanks - we have updated that figure (now Figure 10A)

      -  Maybe I am misunderstanding something, but it seems like the linear model prediction shown in Figure 2A for the rod could be easily improved by scaling it appropriately. Is this impression correct or why not?

      We have clarified how the linear model is constructed (by fitting the linear model to low contrast responses of the full model at the mean stimulus intensity). We also added a supplemental figure, following the suggestion above, showing the linear model performance when a free scaling factor is included for each cell.

      -  The verification experiment in Fig. 5 is only anecdotal and is elaborated only in Figure 6. If I am not mistaken, this does not necessitate its own figure/section but could rather be merged.

      We have kept this figure separate (now Figure 6) as we felt that it was important to highlight the approach in general in a figure before getting into quantification of how well it works.

      -  Figure 5 right is lacking labels. What is red and grey?

      Thanks for catching that - labels are added now.

      -  The end of the Discussion is slightly unusual. Did some text go missing?

      Thanks - we have rearranged the Discussion so as not to end on Limitations.

      -  There is a bonus figure at the end which seems also not to belong in the manuscript.

      Thanks - the bonus figure is removed now.

      -  The methods should also describe briefly what kind of routines were used in the Matlab code, e.g. gradient descent with what optimizer?

      We’ve added that information as well.

    1. Case: Patient #27, male, Korean

      Disease Assertion: UCD/OTCD

      Family Info: N/A

      Case Presenting HPOs: HP:0003593, HP:0003218, HP: 0001987

      Case HPO FreeText: Infantile onset, oroticaciduria, hyperammonemia

      Case NOT HPOs:

      Case NOT HPO Free Text:

      Case Previous Testing: "Potential impact of mutations on OTC function and/or folding assessed by multiple alignments of orthologous protein sequences and human OTC and structural data from Protein Data Bank (1C9Y and available orthologs). In M patients, the approximate extent of the deletions assessed by inspection of presence/absence of PCR products. In F patients, the deletions determined by the SALSA multiplex ligation probe amplification (MLPA) KIT P079 OTC (MRC-Holland, Amsterdam, the Netherlands) and the Affymetrix Human SNP 6.0 array (Santa Clara, CA). Sequence spanning 38,211,736 – 38,300,703 bp region on chromosome X (GRCh37) and including OTC was scanned for motifs CCTCCCT, CCTCCTT, CCTCCCTT, CCCCACCCC, CCNCCNTNNCCNC, GGNGGNAGGG and their complements known as being associated with recombination hotspots. Repeats capable of non-B DNA structure formation implicated in double strand breaks (DSBs) were sought by complexity analysis . X-inactivation ratio determined by analysis of methylation status of the human androgen-receptor locus (HUMARA)

      Supplemental Data: Table 1&2, The minimum plasma ammonia, orotic acid and Gln+Glu concentrations depends on certain age range: Plasma ammonia: neonates <90μmol/l, other <60μmol/l. Urinary orotic acid: 0–1year <6.6mmol/mol creatinine, 1 – 10 years <3.5 mmol/mol creatinine, over 10 years <2.4 mmol/mol creatinine. Serum glutamate + glutamine: 0 – 1 month 200–1200μmol/l, 1 month–1year 200–1100μmol/l, 1year–18years 200–900μmol/l, over 18years 200–800μmol/l.

      Variant: NM_000531.6:c.929_931del(p.Glu310Valfs*45)

      ClinVarID: N/A

      CAID: CA916083888

      gnomAD:

      Gene Name: OTC (ornithine transcarbamylase)

    2. Case: Patient #37, female, Korean

      Disease Assertion: UCD/OTCD

      Family Info: N/A

      Case Presenting HPOs: HP:0011463, HP:0003218, HP: 0001987

      Case HPO FreeText: Childhood onset, oroticaciduria, hyperammonemia

      Case NOT HPOs:

      Case NOT HPO Free Text:

      Case Previous Testing: "Potential impact of mutations on OTC function and/or folding assessed by multiple alignments of orthologous protein sequences and human OTC and structural data from Protein Data Bank (1C9Y and available orthologs). In M patients, the approximate extent of the deletions assessed by inspection of presence/absence of PCR products. In F patients, the deletions determined by the SALSA multiplex ligation probe amplification (MLPA) KIT P079 OTC (MRC-Holland, Amsterdam, the Netherlands) and the Affymetrix Human SNP 6.0 array (Santa Clara, CA). Sequence spanning 38,211,736 – 38,300,703 bp region on chromosome X (GRCh37) and including OTC was scanned for motifs CCTCCCT, CCTCCTT, CCTCCCTT, CCCCACCCC, CCNCCNTNNCCNC, GGNGGNAGGG and their complements known as being associated with recombination hotspots. Repeats capable of non-B DNA structure formation implicated in double strand breaks (DSBs) were sought by complexity analysis . X-inactivation ratio determined by analysis of methylation status of the human androgen-receptor locus (HUMARA)

      Supplemental Data: Table 1&2, The minimum plasma ammonia, orotic acid and Gln+Glu concentrations depends on certain age range: Plasma ammonia: neonates <90μmol/l, other <60μmol/l. Urinary orotic acid: 0–1year <6.6mmol/mol creatinine, 1 – 10 years <3.5 mmol/mol creatinine, over 10 years <2.4 mmol/mol creatinine. Serum glutamate + glutamine: 0 – 1 month 200–1200μmol/l, 1 month–1year 200–1100μmol/l, 1year–18years 200–900μmol/l, over 18years 200–800μmol/l.

      Variant: NM_000531.6:c.1043delA(p.Gln348Argfs*47)

      ClinVarID: N/A

      CAID: CA2695233335

      gnomAD:

      Gene Name: OTC (ornithine transcarbamylase)

    3. Case: Patient #35, female, Korean

      Disease Assertion: UCD/OTCD

      Family Info: N/A

      Case Presenting HPOs: HP:0011463, HP:0003218, HP: 0001987

      Case HPO FreeText: childhood onset, oroticaciduria, hyperammonemia

      Case NOT HPOs:

      Case NOT HPO Free Text:

      Case Previous Testing: "Potential impact of mutations on OTC function and/or folding assessed by multiple alignments of orthologous protein sequences and human OTC and structural data from Protein Data Bank (1C9Y and available orthologs). In M patients, the approximate extent of the deletions assessed by inspection of presence/absence of PCR products. In F patients, the deletions determined by the SALSA multiplex ligation probe amplification (MLPA) KIT P079 OTC (MRC-Holland, Amsterdam, the Netherlands) and the Affymetrix Human SNP 6.0 array (Santa Clara, CA). Sequence spanning 38,211,736 – 38,300,703 bp region on chromosome X (GRCh37) and including OTC was scanned for motifs CCTCCCT, CCTCCTT, CCTCCCTT, CCCCACCCC, CCNCCNTNNCCNC, GGNGGNAGGG and their complements known as being associated with recombination hotspots. Repeats capable of non-B DNA structure formation implicated in double strand breaks (DSBs) were sought by complexity analysis . X-inactivation ratio determined by analysis of methylation status of the human androgen-receptor locus (HUMARA)

      Supplemental Data: Table 1&2, This is a large deletion. The minimum plasma ammonia, orotic acid and Gln+Glu concentrations depends on certain age range: Plasma ammonia: neonates <90μmol/l, other <60μmol/l. Urinary orotic acid: 0–1year <6.6mmol/mol creatinine, 1 – 10 years <3.5 mmol/mol creatinine, over 10 years <2.4 mmol/mol creatinine. Serum glutamate + glutamine: 0 – 1 month 200–1200μmol/l, 1 month–1year 200–1100μmol/l, 1year–18years 200–900μmol/l, over 18years 200–800μmol/l.

      Variant: NM_000531.6:c.853C>T(p.Gln285*)

      ClinVarID: N/A

      CAID: CA412723777

      gnomAD:

      Gene Name: OTC (ornithine transcarbamylase)

    4. Case: Patient #34, female, Korean

      Disease Assertion: UCD/OTCD

      Family Info: N/A

      Case Presenting HPOs: HP:0011463, HP:0003218, HP: 0001987

      Case HPO FreeText: childhood onset, oroticaciduria, hyperammonemia

      Case NOT HPOs:

      Case NOT HPO Free Text:

      Case Previous Testing: "Potential impact of mutations on OTC function and/or folding assessed by multiple alignments of orthologous protein sequences and human OTC and structural data from Protein Data Bank (1C9Y and available orthologs). In M patients, the approximate extent of the deletions assessed by inspection of presence/absence of PCR products. In F patients, the deletions determined by the SALSA multiplex ligation probe amplification (MLPA) KIT P079 OTC (MRC-Holland, Amsterdam, the Netherlands) and the Affymetrix Human SNP 6.0 array (Santa Clara, CA). Sequence spanning 38,211,736 – 38,300,703 bp region on chromosome X (GRCh37) and including OTC was scanned for motifs CCTCCCT, CCTCCTT, CCTCCCTT, CCCCACCCC, CCNCCNTNNCCNC, GGNGGNAGGG and their complements known as being associated with recombination hotspots. Repeats capable of non-B DNA structure formation implicated in double strand breaks (DSBs) were sought by complexity analysis . X-inactivation ratio determined by analysis of methylation status of the human androgen-receptor locus (HUMARA)

      Supplemental Data: Table 1&2, This is a manifesting heterozygote. Serum Gln+Glu was considered elevated. The minimum plasma ammonia, orotic acid and Gln+Glu concentrations depends on certain age range: Plasma ammonia: neonates <90μmol/l, other <60μmol/l. Urinary orotic acid: 0–1year <6.6mmol/mol creatinine, 1 – 10 years <3.5 mmol/mol creatinine, over 10 years <2.4 mmol/mol creatinine. Serum glutamate + glutamine: 0 – 1 month 200–1200μmol/l, 1 month–1year 200–1100μmol/l, 1year–18years 200–900μmol/l, over 18years 200–800μmol/l.

      Variant: NM_000531.6:c.717+1G>T(IVS7+1G>T)

      ClinVarID: 97298

      CAID: CA224753

      gnomAD:

      Gene Name: OTC (ornithine transcarbamylase)

    5. Case: Patient #30, female, Korean

      DiseaseAssertion: UCD/OTCD

      FamilyInfo: N/A

      CasePresentingHPOs: HP:0011463, HP:0003218

      CaseHPOFreeText: childhood onset, oroticaciduria,

      CaseNOTHPOs:

      CaseNOTHPOFreeText:

      CasePreviousTesting: "Potential impact of mutations on OTC function and/or folding assessed by multiple alignments of orthologous protein sequences and human OTC and structural data from Protein Data Bank (1C9Y and available orthologs). In M patients, the approximate extent of the deletions assessed by inspection of presence/absence of PCR products. In F patients, the deletions determined by the SALSA multiplex ligation probe amplification (MLPA) KIT P079 OTC (MRC-Holland, Amsterdam, the Netherlands) and the Affymetrix Human SNP 6.0 array (Santa Clara, CA). Sequence spanning 38,211,736 – 38,300,703 bp region on chromosome X (GRCh37) and including OTC was scanned for motifs CCTCCCT, CCTCCTT, CCTCCCTT, CCCCACCCC, CCNCCNTNNCCNC, GGNGGNAGGG and their complements known as being associated with recombination hotspots. Repeats capable of non-B DNA structure formation implicated in double strand breaks (DSBs) were sought by complexity analysis . X-inactivation ratio determined by analysis of methylation status of the human androgen-receptor locus (HUMARA)

      Supplemental Data: Table 1&2, Serum Gln+Glu was considered elevated, the minimum plasma ammonia, orotic acid and Gln+Glu concentrations depends on certain age range: Plasma ammonia: neonates <90μmol/l, other <60μmol/l. Urinary orotic acid: 0–1year <6.6mmol/mol creatinine, 1 – 10 years <3.5 mmol/mol creatinine, over 10 years <2.4 mmol/mol creatinine. Serum glutamate + glutamine: 0 – 1 month 200–1200μmol/l, 1 month–1year 200–1100μmol/l, 1year–18years 200–900μmol/l, over 18years 200–800μmol/l.

      Variant: NM_000531.6:c.491C>G(p.Ser164*)

      ClinVarID: 97220

      CAID: CA224642

      gnomAD:

      GeneName: OTC (ornithine transcarbamylase)

    6. Case: Patient #6, male, Korean

      DiseaseAssertion: UCD/OTCD

      FamilyInfo: N/A

      CasePresentingHPOs: HP:0011463, HP:0001987, HP:0003218

      CaseHPOFreeText: Neonatal onset, hyperammonemia, oroticaciduria,

      CaseNOTHPOs:

      CaseNOTHPOFreeText:

      CasePreviousTesting: "Potential impact of mutations on OTC function and/or folding assessed by multiple alignments of orthologous protein sequences and human OTC and structural data from Protein Data Bank (1C9Y and available orthologs). In M patients, the approximate extent of the deletions assessed by inspection of presence/absence of PCR products. In F patients, the deletions determined by the SALSA multiplex ligation probe amplification (MLPA) KIT P079 OTC (MRC-Holland, Amsterdam, the Netherlands) and the Affymetrix Human SNP 6.0 array (Santa Clara, CA). Sequence spanning 38,211,736 – 38,300,703 bp region on chromosome X (GRCh37) and including OTC was scanned for motifs CCTCCCT, CCTCCTT, CCTCCCTT, CCCCACCCC, CCNCCNTNNCCNC, GGNGGNAGGG and their complements known as being associated with recombination hotspots. Repeats capable of non-B DNA structure formation implicated in double strand breaks (DSBs) were sought by complexity analysis . X-inactivation ratio determined by analysis of methylation status of the human androgen-receptor locus (HUMARA)

      Supplemental Data: Table 1&2, the minimum plasma ammonia, orotic acid and Gln+Glu concentrations depends on certain age range: Plasma ammonia: neonates <90μmol/l, other <60μmol/l. Urinary orotic acid: 0–1year <6.6mmol/mol creatinine, 1 – 10 years <3.5 mmol/mol creatinine, over 10 years <2.4 mmol/mol creatinine. Serum glutamate + glutamine: 0 – 1 month 200–1200μmol/l, 1 month–1year 200–1100μmol/l, 1year–18years 200–900μmol/l, over 18years 200–800μmol/l.

      Variant: NM_000531.6:c.461_471del(p.Glu154Alafs*18)

      ClinVarID: N/A

      CAID:CA2695233305

      gnomAD:

      GeneName: OTC (ornithine transcarbamylase)

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1:

      (1) Point for more elaborate discussion: Apparently the timescale of negative feedback signals is conserved between endothelial cell migration in vitro (with human cells) and endothelial migration during the formation of ISVs in zebrafish. What do you think might be an explanation for such conserved timescales? Are there certain processes within cytoskeletal tension build up that require this quantity of time to establish? Or does it relate to the time that is needed to begin to express the YAP/TAZ target genes that mediate feedback?

      The underlying mechanisms responsible for the conserved timescale is a major direction that we continue to explore. Localization of YAP/TAZ to the nucleus is likely not rate-limiting. We showed previously that acute RhoA activation produced significant YAP/TAZ nuclear localization within minutes, while subsequent co-transcriptional activity aligned with the gene expression dynamics observed here (Berlew et al., 2021). We hypothesize that the dynamics of YAP/TAZdependent transcription and the translation of those target genes are rate-limiting for initial feedback loop completion (tic = 4 hours). This is supported by work from us and others in a variety of cell lines showing YAP/TAZ transcriptional responses take place during the first few hours after activation. (Franklin et al., 2020; Mason et al., 2019; Plouffe et al., 2018) While our data identify mediators of initial feedback loop completion, the molecular effectors that determine the timescale of new cytoskeletal equilibrium establishment (teq = 8 hours) remain unclear.

      (2) Do you expect different timescales for slower endothelial migratory processes (e.g. for instance during fin vascular regeneration which takes days)?

      We selected the ISV development model because it exhibits similar migratory kinetics to our previously-explored human ECFC migration in vitro. The comparable kinetics allowed us to study dynamics of the feedback loop in vivo on similar time scales, but we have not explored models featuring either slower or faster dynamics. 

      It would be interesting to test how feedback dynamics are impacted in distinct endothelial migratory processes. Our data suggest that the feedback loop is necessary for persistent migration; however, YAP and TAZ respond to a diversity of upstream regulators in addition to mechanical signals, which might depend on the process of vascular morphogenesis. For example, after fin amputation, inflammation and tissue regeneration may impact the biochemical and mechanical environment experienced by the endothelium. Additionally, cells display different migratory behaviors in ISV morphogenesis compared to fin regeneration. During ISV formation, sprouting tip cells migrate dorsally through avascular tissue, followed by stalk cells. (Ellertsdóttir et al., 2010) In contrast, the fin vasculature regenerates by forming an intermediate vascular plexus, where some venous-derived endothelial cells migrate towards the sprouting front, while others migrate against it. (Xu et al., 2014) We are excited to study the role of this feedback loop in these different modes of neovessel formation in future studies.

      (3) Is the ~4hrs and 8hrs feedback time window a general property or does it differ between specific endothelial cell types? In the veins the endothelial cells generate less stress fibers and adhesions compared to in the arteries. Does this mean that there might be a difference in the feedback time window, or does that mean that certain endothelial cell types may not have such YAP/TAZcontrolled feedback system?

      Recent studies suggest that venous endothelial cells are the primary endothelial subtype responsible for blood vessel morphogenesis. (Lee et al., 2022, 2021; Xu et al., 2014) They are highly motile and mechanosensitive, migrating against blood flow. (Lee et al., 2022) The Huveneers group has shown that the actin cytoskeleton is differently organized in adult arteries and veins in response to biomechanical properties of its extracellular matrix, rather than intrinsic differences between arterial and venous cells. (van Geemen et al., 2014) This suggests that arterial and venous cells have distinct cytoskeletal setpoints due to mechanical cues in their environment (Price et al., 2021). We expect this to impact the degree of cytoskeletal remodeling and cell migration at equilibrium, rather than the kinetics of the feedback loop per se, though we have not yet tested this hypothesis. Testing these predictions on cytoskeletal setpoint stability and adaptation is a major direction that we continue to explore. 

      (4) The experiments are based on perturbations to prove that transcriptional feedback is needed for endothelial migration. What would happen if the feedback systems is always switched on? An experiment to add might be to analyse the responsiveness of endothelial cells expressing constitutively active YAP/TAZ.

      This is a problem that we are actively pursuing. Though the feedback system forms a coherent loop, we anticipate that the identity of the node of the loop selected for constitutive activation will influence the outcome, depending on whether that node is rate-limiting for feedback kinetics and the extent of intersection of that node with other signaling events in the cell. For example, we have observed that constitutive YAP activation drives profound changes to the transcriptional landscape including, but not limited to, RhoA signaling (Jones et al., 2023). We further anticipate that constitutive activation of feedback loop nodes may alter feedback dynamics, while dynamic or acute perturbation will be required to dissect these contributions in real time. For these reasons, ongoing work in the lab is pursuing these questions using optogenetic tools that enable precise spatial and temporal control (Berlew et al., 2021).   

      (5) To investigate the role of YAP-mediated transcription in an accurate time-dependent manner the authors may consider using the recently developed optogenetic YAP translocation tool: https://doi.org/10.15252/embr.202154401

      We are enthusiastic about the power of optogenetics to interrogate the nodes and timescales of this feedback system, and we are now funded to pursue this line of research. 

      Reviewer #2:

      The idea is intriguing, but it is not clear how the feedback actually works, so it is difficult to determine if the events needed could occur within 4 hrs. Specifically, it is not clear what gene changes initiated by YAP/TAZ translocation eventually lead to changes in Rho signaling and contractility. Much of the evidence to support the model is preliminary. Some of the data is consistent with the model, but alternative explanations of the data are not excluded. The fish washout data is quite interesting and does support the model. It is unclear how some of the in vitro data supports the model and excludes alternatives.

      Major strengths:

      The combination of in vitro and in vivo assessment provides evidence for timing in physiologically relevant contexts, and a rigorous quantification of outputs is provided. The idea of defining temporal aspects of the system is quite interesting.

      Major weaknesses:

      The evidence for a "loop" is not strong; rather, most of the data can also be interpreted as a linear increase in effect with time once a threshold is reached. Washout experiments are key to setting up a time window, yet these experiments are presented only for the fish model. A major technical challenge is that siRNA experiments take time to achieve depletion status, making precise timing of events on short time scales problematic. Also, Actinomycin D blocks most transcription so exposure for hours likely leads to secondary and tertiary effects and perhaps effects on viability. No RNA profiling is presented to validate proposed transcriptional changes.

      We thank the reviewer for these helpful suggestions. We have expanded our explanation of the history and known mediators of the feedback loop in the introduction. We and, independently, the Huveneers group recently reported that human endothelial cells maintain cytoskeletal equilibrium for persistent motility through a YAP/TAZ-mediated feedback loop that modulates cytoskeletal tension. (Mason et al., 2019; van der Stoel et al., 2020) Because YAP and TAZ are activated by tension of the cytoskeleton (Dupont et al., 2011), suppression of cytoskeletal tension by YAP/TAZ transcriptional target genes constitutes a negative feedback loop (Fig. 1A). We described key components of this cell-intrinsic feedback loop, which acts as a control system to maintain cytoskeletal homeostasis for persistent motility via modulation of Rho-ROCK-myosin II activity. (Mason et al., 2019) Both we and the Huveneers group found that perturbation of genes and pathways regulated by YAP/TAZ mechanoactivation can functionally rescue motility in YAP/TAZ-depleted cells (e.g., RhoA/ROCK/myosin II, NUAK2, DLC1). (Mason et al., 2019; van der Stoel et al., 2020) We further showed previously that both YAP/TAZ depletion and acute YAP/TAZ-TEAD inhibition consistently increased stress fiber and FA maturation and arrested cell motility, accounting for these limitations of siRNA. (Mason et al., 2019)

      Enduring limitations to the temporal, spatial, and cell-specific control of the genetic and pharmacologic methods have inspired us to initiate alternative approaches, which are the subject of ongoing efforts. Further research will be necessary in the zebrafish to determine the extent to which the observed migratory dynamics are driven by cytoskeletal arrest. 

      To identify early YAP/TAZ-regulated transcriptional changes, we have added RNA profiling of control and YAP/TAZ depleted cells cultured on stiff matrices for four hours. Genes upregulated by YAP/TAZ depletion were enriched for Gene Ontology (GO) terms associated with Rho protein signal transduction, vascular development, cellular response to vascular endothelial growth factor (VEGF) stimulus, and endothelial cell migration (Fig. 9B). These data support a role for YAP and TAZ as negative feedback mediators that maintain cytoskeletal homeostasis for endothelial cell migration and vascular morphogenesis.  

      Reviewer #3:

      The authors used ECFC - endothelial colony forming cells (circulating endothelial cells that activate in response to vascular injury).

      Q: Did the authors characterize these cells and made sure that they are truly endothelial cells - for example examine specific endothelial markers, arterial-venous identity markers & Notch signalling status, overall morphology etc prior to the start of the experiment. How were ECFC isolated from human individuals, are these "healthy" volunteers - any underlying CVD risk factors, cells from one patient or from pooled samples, what injury where these humans exposed to trigger the release of the ECPFs into the circulation, etc. The materials & methods on ECFC should be expanded.

      Human umbilical cord blood-derived ECFCs were isolated at Indiana University School of Medicine and kindly provided by Dr Mervin Yoder. Cells were cultured as described by the Yoder group (Rapp et al., 2011) and our prior paper (Mason et al., 2019). We have expanded the materials and methods section to describe the source and characterization of these cells.

      The authors suggest that loss of YAP/TAZ phenocopies actinomycin-D inhibition - "both transcription inhibition and YAP/TAZ depletion impaired polarization, and induced robust ventral stress fiber formation and peripheral focal adhesion maturation". However, the cell size of actinomycin-D treated cells (Fig. 1B, top right panel), differs from the endothelial cell size upon siYAP/TAZ (Fig. 1E, top right panel) - and vinculin staining seems more pronounced in actinomycin-D treated cells (B, bottom right) when compared to siYAP/TAZ group. Cell shape is defined by acto-myosin tension.

      Q: Besides Fraction of focal adhesion >1um; focal adhesion number did the authors measure additional parameters related to cytoskeleton remodelling / focal adhesions that can substantiate their statement on similarity between loss of YAP/TAZ and actinomycin-D treatment. Would it be possible to make a more specific genetic intervention (besides YAP/TAZ) interfering with the focal adhesion pathway as opposed to the broad spectrum inhibitor actinomyocin-D.

      Our previous paper (Mason et al., 2019) delineated the mechanistic relationships between YAP/TAZ signaling, focal adhesion turnover, actomyosin polymerization, and the intervening mechanisms of myosin regulation. Specifically, we demonstrated that YAP/TAZ regulate the myosin phosphatase kinase, NUAK2, and ARHGAP genes to mediate this feedback. Expanding on this work, the current study aimed to define the temporal kinetics of the cytoskeletal mechanotransductive feedback in vitro and in vivo. We used actinomycin-D and YAP/TAZ depletion to interrogate the role of transcriptional regulation and YAP/TAZ signaling, respectively. In this revision, we have added RNA profiling that identifies early YAP/TAZ-regulated transcriptional changes and further points to other molecular mediators of focal adhesions (e.g. TRIO, RHOB, THBS1) that will be the subjects of future studies.    

      Q: Does the actinomycin-D treatment affect responsiveness to Vegf? induce apoptosis or reduce survival of the ECFC?

      We have not looked specifically at the effect of actinomycin-D treatment on responsiveness to VEGF. However, actinomycin-D has been reported to reduce transcription of VEGF receptors (E et al., 2012). In contrast, we found that YAP/TAZ depletion upregulated GO terms associated with endothelial cell migration and response to VEGF stimulus (Fig. 9B), as well as receptors to angiogenic growth factors, including KDR and FLT4 (Fig. 9E). These results suggest YAP/TAZ depleted cells may be more sensitive to VEGF stimulation but remain nonmotile due to cytoskeletal arrest.

      We showed previously that long-term treatment with actinomycin-D reduces ECFC survival (Mason et al., 2019).

      Q: Which mechanism links ECM stiffness with endothelial surface area in the authors scenario. In zebrafish, activity of endothelial guanine exchange factor Trio specifically at endothelial cell junctions (Klems, Nat Comms, 2020) and endoglin in response to hemodynamic factors (Siekmann, Nat Cell Biol 2017) have been show to control EC shape/surface area - do these factors play a role in the scenario proposed by the authors.

      Our new transcriptional profiling indicates both Trio and endoglin are regulated through YAP and TAZ in human ECFCs. We plan to follow up on these findings.

      Q: The authors report that EC migrate faster on stiff substrate, and concomitantly these cells have a larger surface area. What is the physiological rationale behind these observations. Did the authors observe such behaviors in their zebrafish ISV model? How do these observations integrate with the tip - stalk cell shuffling model (Jakobsson & Gerhardt, Nat Cell Biol, 2011) and Notch activity in developing ISVs.

      This question raises important distinctions between the mode of migration in ISV morphogenesis and endothelial cells adherent to substrates. Cells behave and respond to mechanical cues differently in 2D vs. 3D matrices. (LaValley and Reinhart-King, 2014) Additionally, the microenvironment in vivo is much more complex, combining numerous biochemical signals and changing mechanical properties. (Whisler et al., 2023) We are actively investigating the downstream targets of YAP/TAZ mechanotransduction and how that integrates with other pathways known to regulate vascular morphogenesis, such as Notch signaling. 

      The authors examined the formation of arterial intersegmental vessels in the trunk of developing zebrafish embryos in vivo. They used a variety of pharmacological inhibitors of transcription and acto-myosin remodelling and linked the observed morphological changes in ISV morphogenesis with changes in endothelial cell motility.

      Q: Reduced formation and dorsal extension of ISVs may have several reasons, including reduced EC migration and proliferation. The Tg(fl i1a:EGFP) reporter however is not the most suitable line to monitor migration of individual endothelial cells. Can the authors repeat the experiments in Tg(fl i1a:nEGFP); Tg(kdrl:HRAS-mCherry) double transgenics to visualize movement-migration of the individual endothelial cells and EC proliferation events, in the different treatment regimes.

      So far, we have not tracked individual endothelial cells during ISV morphogenesis. We agree this is the best approach and are pursuing a similar technique for these experiments.

      ISV formation is furthermore affected by Notch signalling status and a series of (repulsive) guidance cues.

      Q: Does de novo blockade of gene expression with Actinomycin D affect Notch signalling status, expression of PlexinD - sFlt1, netrin1 or arterial-venous identify genes.

      While we have not performed gene expression analysis under the Actinomycin D condition, Actinomycin D functions as a broad transcription inhibitor. We are currently pursuing the downstream targets of YAP/TAZ mechanotransduction in both ECFCs and zebrafish.

      Remark: The authors may want to consider using the Tg(fl i1:LIFEACT-GFP) reporter for in vivo imaging of actin remodelling events.

      We thank the reviewer for their helpful suggestion.

      Remark: the authors report "As with broad transcription inhibition, in situ depletion of YAP and TAZ by RNAi arrested cell motility, illustrated here by live-migration sparklines over 10 hours: siControl: , siYAP/TAZ: (25 μm scale-bar: -)". Can the authors make a separate figure panel for this, how many cells were measured?

      Please refer to our previous publication for the complete details on this data (Mason et al., 2019). We have added the citation in the text.

      Remark: in the wash-out experiments, exposure to the inhibitors is not the same in the different scenarios - could it be that the longer exposure time induces "toxic" side effect that cannot be "washed out" when compared to the short treatment regimes?

      This is a possible limitation of the pharmacological approach and have included it in the discussion section. We are currently exploring alternative approaches to interrogate the timescale of the feedback loop more precisely.  

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      Mason DE, Collins JM, Dawahare JH, Nguyen TD, Lin Y, Voytik-Harbin SL, Zorlutuna P, Yoder MC, Boerckel JD. 2019. YAP and TAZ limit cytoskeletal and focal adhesion maturation to enable persistent cell motility. Journal of Cell Biology 218:1369–1389. doi:10.1083/jcb.201806065

      Plouffe SW, Lin KC, Moore JL, Tan FE, Ma S, Ye Z, Qiu Y, Ren B, Guan K-L. 2018. The Hippo pathway effector proteins YAP and TAZ have both distinct and overlapping functions in the cell. J Biol Chem 293:11230–11240. doi:10.1074/jbc.RA118.002715

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  2. Jun 2024
    1. Background   Synthetic cathinones are β-keto phenethylamines and chemically similar to amphetamine and methamphetamine [1]. Cathinone, the principal active ingredient in the leaves of the khat plant (catha edulis), can be considered as the prototype from which a range of synthetic cathinones have been developed. Internationally controlled substances in this group are cathinone, methcathinone, cathine and pyrovalerone. Cathinone and methcathinone are listed in Schedule I of the 1971 Single Convention on Psychotropic Substances, cathine in Schedule III and pyrovalerone in Schedule IV.   Synthetic cathinones appeared in drug markets in the mid-2000s. In 2005, methylone, an analogue of MDMA, was the first synthetic cathinone reported to the European Monitoring Centre on Drugs and Drug Addiction (EMCDDA). In 2007, reports of 4-methylmethcathinone (mephedrone) use emerged, first in Israel and then in other countries and regions, including Australia, Scandinavia, Ireland and the United Kingdom [2]. Mephedrone was reportedly first synthesized in 1929 [3].

      MDMA-assisted therapy for severe PTSD: a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled phase 3 study

      Show authors

      Nature Medicine volume 27, pages1025--1033 (2021)Cite this article

      Matters Arising to this article was published on 11 October 2021

      Matters Arising to this article was published on 11 October 2021

      Abstract

      Post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) presents a major public health problem for which currently available treatments are modestly effective. We report the findings of a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled, multi-site phase 3 clinical trial (NCT03537014) to test the efficacy and safety of 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA)-assisted therapy for the treatment of patients with severe PTSD, including those with common comorbidities such as dissociation, depression, a history of alcohol and substance use disorders, and childhood trauma. After psychiatric medication washout, participants (n = 90) were randomized 1:1 to receive manualized therapy with MDMA or with placebo, combined with three preparatory and nine integrative therapy sessions. PTSD symptoms, measured with the Clinician-Administered PTSD Scale for DSM-5 (CAPS-5, the primary endpoint), and functional impairment, measured with the Sheehan Disability Scale (SDS, the secondary endpoint) were assessed at baseline and at 2 months after the last experimental session. Adverse events and suicidality were tracked throughout the study. MDMA was found to induce significant and robust attenuation in CAPS-5 score compared with placebo (P < 0.0001, d = 0.91) and to significantly decrease the SDS total score (P = 0.0116, d = 0.43). The mean change in CAPS-5 scores in participants completing treatment was -24.4 (s.d. 11.6) in the MDMA group and -13.9 (s.d. 11.5) in the placebo group. MDMA did not induce adverse events of abuse potential, suicidality or QT prolongation. These data indicate that, compared with manualized therapy with inactive placebo, MDMA-assisted therapy is highly efficacious in individuals with severe PTSD, and treatment is safe and well-tolerated, even in those with comorbidities. We conclude that MDMA-assisted therapy represents a potential breakthrough treatment that merits expedited clinical evaluation.

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      Main

      PTSD is a common and debilitating condition with immeasurable social and economic costs that affects the lives of hundreds of millions of people annually. There are a number of environmental and biological risk factors that contribute to the development and maintenance of PTSD1, and poor PTSD treatment outcomes are associated with several comorbid conditions that include childhood trauma2, alcohol and substance use disorders3, depression4, suicidal ideation5 and dissociation6. It is therefore imperative to identify a therapeutic that is beneficial in those individuals with the comorbidities that typically confer treatment resistance.

      The selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) sertraline and paroxetine are Food and Drug Administration (FDA)-approved first-line therapeutics for the treatment of PTSD. However, an estimated 40--60% of patients do not respond to these compounds7. Likewise, although evidenced-based trauma-focused psychotherapies such as prolonged exposure and cognitive behavioral therapy are considered to be the gold standard treatments for PTSD8, many participants fail to respond or continue to have significant symptoms, and dropout rates are high9,10. Novel cost-effective therapeutics are therefore desperately needed11.

      The substituted amphetamine 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) induces serotonin release by binding primarily to presynaptic serotonin transporters12. MDMA has been shown to enhance fear memory extinction, modulate fear memory reconsolidation (possibly through an oxytocin-dependent mechanism), and bolster social behavior in animal models13,14. Pooled analysis of six phase 2 trials of MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD have now shown promising safety and efficacy findings15.

      Here, we assess the efficacy and safety of MDMA-assisted therapy in individuals with severe PTSD. Participants were given three doses of MDMA or placebo in a controlled clinical environment and in the presence of a trained therapy team. Primary and secondary outcome measures (CAPS-5 and SDS, respectively) were assessed by a centralized pool of blinded, independent diagnostic assessors. MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD was granted an FDA Breakthrough Therapy designation, and the protocol and statistical analysis plan (SAP) were developed in conjunction with the FDA16.

      Results

      Demographics

      Participants were recruited from 7 November 2018 to 26 May 2020, with the last participant visit conducted on 21 August 2020. A total of 345 participants were assessed for eligibility, 131 were enrolled, 91 were confirmed for randomization (United States, n = 77; Canada, n = 9; Israel, n = 5), and 46 were randomized to MDMA and 44 to placebo (Fig. 1).

      Fig. 1: Procedure timeline and study flow diagram.

      figure 1

      a, Procedure timeline. Following the screening procedures and medication taper, participants attended a total of three preparatory sessions, three experimental sessions, nine integration sessions and four endpoint assessments (T1--4) over 18 weeks, concluding with a final study-termination visit. IR, independent rater; T, timepoint of endpoint assessment; T1, baseline; T2, after the first experimental session; T3, after the second experimental session; T4, 18 weeks after baseline. b, CONSORT diagram indicating participant numbers and disposition through the course of the trial.

      Full size image

      Study arms were not significantly different in terms of race, ethnicity, sex, age, dissociative subtype, disability or CAPS-5 score (Table 1). The mean duration of PTSD diagnosis was 14.8 (s.d. 11.6) years and 13.2 (s.d. 11.4) years in the MDMA and placebo groups, respectively. Of note, six participants in the MDMA group and 13 participants in the placebo group had the dissociative subtype according to CAPS-5 score.

      Table 1 Demographics and baseline characteristics

      Full size table

      Efficacy

      MDMA significantly attenuated PTSD symptomology, as shown by the change in CAPS-5 total severity score from baseline to 18 weeks after baseline. Mixed model repeated measure (MMRM) analysis of the de jure estimand (that is, the effects of the drug if taken as directed) showed a significant difference in treatment arms (n = 89 (MDMA n = 46), P < 0.0001, between-group difference = 11.9, 95% confidence interval (CI) = 6.3--17.4, d.f. = 71) (Fig. 2a). MMRM sensitivity analysis of the de facto estimand (that is, the effects of the drug if taken as assigned, regardless of adherence) showed a significant difference in treatment arms (n = 90, P < 0.0001, d.f. = 72).

      Fig. 2: Measures of MDMA efficacy in the MDMA-assisted therapy group and the placebo group.

      figure 2

      a, Change in CAPS-5 total severity score from T1 to T4 (P < 0.0001, d = 0.91, n = 89 (MDMA n = 46)), as a measure of the primary outcome. Primary analysis was completed using least square means from an MMRM model. b, Change in SDS total score from T1 to T4 (P = 0.0116, d = 0.43, n = 89 (MDMA n = 46)), as a measure of the secondary outcome. Primary analysis was completed using least square means from an MMRM model. c, Change in BDI-II score from T1 to study termination (t = -3.11, P = 0.0026, n = 81 (MDMA n = 42)), as a measure of the exploratory outcome. Data are presented as mean and s.e.m.

      Full size image

      The mean change in CAPS-5 scores from baseline to 18 weeks after baseline in the completers (per protocol set) was -24.4 (s.d. 11.6) (n = 42) in the MDMA-assisted therapy group compared with -13.9 (s.d. 11.5) (n = 37) in the placebo with therapy group.

      The effect size of the MDMA-assisted therapy treatment compared with placebo with therapy was d = 0.91 (95% CI = 0.44--1.37, pooled s.d. = 11.55) in the de jure estimand and d = 0.97 (95% CI = 0.51--1.42) in the de facto estimand. When the within-group treatment effect (which included the effect of the supportive therapy that was administered in both arms) was compared between the MDMA and placebo groups, the effect size was 2.1 (95% CI = -5.6 to 1.4) in the MDMA group and 1.2 (95% CI = -4.9 to 2.5) in the placebo group.

      Over the same period, MDMA significantly reduced clinician-rated functional impairment as assessed with the SDS. MMRM analysis of the de jure estimand showed a significant difference in treatment arms (n = 89 (MDMA n = 46), P = 0.0116, d.f. = 71, effect size = 0.43, 95% CI = -0.01 to 0.88, pooled s.d. = 2.53) (Fig. 2b). The mean change in SDS scores from baseline to 18 weeks after baseline in the completers was -3.1 (s.d. 2.6) (n = 42) in the MDMA-assisted therapy group and -2.0 (s.d. 2.4) (n = 37) in the placebo with therapy group.

      MDMA was equally effective in participants with comorbidities that are often associated with treatment resistance. Participants with the dissociative subtype of PTSD who received MDMA-assisted therapy had significant symptom reduction on the CAPS-5 (mean MDMA Δ = -30.8 (s.d. 9.0), mean placebo Δ = -12.8 (s.d. 12.8)), and this was similar to that in their counterparts with non-dissociative PTSD (mean MDMA Δ = -23.6 (s.d. 11.7), mean placebo Δ = -14.3 (s.d. 11.2)). The benefit of MDMA therapy was not modulated by history of alcohol use disorder, history of substance use disorder, overnight stay or severe childhood trauma. Results were consistent across all 15 study sites with no effect by study site (P = 0.1003). In MMRM analysis there was no obvious impact of SSRI history on effectiveness of MDMA (Supplementary Table 2).

      MDMA therapy was effective in an exploratory endpoint analysis of the reduction of depression symptoms (using the Beck Depression Inventory II (BDI-II)) from baseline to study termination of the de jure estimand (mean MDMA Δ = -19.7 (s.d. 14.0), n = 42; mean placebo Δ = -10.8 (s.d. 11.3), n = 39; t = -3.11, P = 0.0026, d.f. = 79, effect size = 0.67, 95% CI = 0.22--1.12) (Fig. 2c).

      Clinically significant improvement (a decrease of ≥10 points on the CAPS-5), loss of diagnosis (specific diagnostic measure on the CAPS-5), and remission (loss of diagnosis and a total CAPS-5 score ≤ 11) were each tracked. At the primary study endpoint (18 weeks after baseline), 28 of 42 (67%) of the participants in the MDMA group no longer met the diagnostic criteria for PTSD, compared with 12 of 37 (32%) of those in the placebo group after three sessions. Additionally, 14 of 42 participants in the MDMA group (33%) and 2 of 37 participants in the placebo group (5%) met the criteria for remission after three sessions (Fig. 3).

      Fig. 3: Treatment response and remission for MDMA and placebo groups as a percentage of total participants randomized to each arm (MDMA, n = 46; placebo, n = 44).

      figure 3

      Responders (clinically significant improvement, defined as a ≥10-point decrease on CAPS-5), loss of diagnosis (specific diagnostic measure on CAPS-5), and remission (loss of diagnosis and a total CAPS-5 score of ≤11) were tracked in both groups. Non-response is defined as a <10-point decrease on CAPS-5. Withdrawal is defined as a post-randomization early termination.

      Full size image

      Safety

      Treatment-emergent adverse events (TEAEs, adverse events that occurred during the treatment period from the first experimental session to the last integration session) that were more prevalent in the MDMA study arm were typically transient, mild to moderate in severity, and included muscle tightness, decreased appetite, nausea, hyperhidrosis and feeling cold (Supplementary Table 3). Importantly, no increase in adverse events related to suicidality was observed in the MDMA group. A transient increase in vital signs (systolic and diastolic blood pressure and heart rate) was observed in the MDMA group (Supplementary Table 4). Two participants in the MDMA group had a transient increase in body temperature to 38.1 °C: one had an increase after the second MDMA session, and one had an increase after the second and third MDMA sessions.

      Two participants, both randomized to the placebo group, reported three serious adverse events (SAEs) during the trial. One participant in the placebo group reported two SAEs of suicidal behavior during the trial, and another participant in the placebo group reported one SAE of suicidal ideation that led to self-hospitalization. Five participants in the placebo group and three participants in the MDMA group reported adverse events of special interest (AESIs) of suicidal ideation, suicidal behavior or self-harm in the context of suicidal ideation. One participant in the placebo group reported two cardiovascular AESIs in which underlying cardiac etiology could not be ruled out (Table 2). One participant randomized to the MDMA group chose to discontinue participation due to being triggered by the CAPS-5 assessments and to an adverse event of depressed mood following an experimental session; this participant met the criterion as a non-responder, which was defined as having a less than 10-point decrease in CAPS-5 score. MDMA sessions were not otherwise followed by a lowering of mood.

      Table 2 Participants with treatment-emergent SAEs and AESIs

      Full size table

      Suicidality was tracked throughout the study using the Columbia Suicide Severity Rating Scale (C-SSRS) at each study visit. More than 90% of participants reported suicidal ideation in their lifetime, and 17 of 46 participants (37%) in the MDMA group and 14 of 44 participants (32%) in the placebo group reported suicidal ideation at baseline. Although the number of participants who reported suicidal ideation varied throughout the visits, prevalence never exceeded baseline and was not exacerbated in the MDMA group. Serious suicidal ideation (a score of 4 or 5 on the C-SSRS) was minimal during the study and occurred almost entirely in the placebo arm (Fig. 4).

      Fig. 4: Number of participants reporting the presence of suicidal ideation as measured with the C-SSRS at each visit and separated by treatment group.

      figure 4

      C-SSRS ideation scores range from 0 (no ideation) to 5. A C-SSRS ideation score of 4 or 5 is termed 'serious ideation'. The number of participants endorsing any positive ideation (>0) is shown by the colored bars and noted in the table below the graph. The number of participants endorsing serious ideation is given in parentheses in the table.

      Full size image

      Discussion

      Here, we demonstrate that three doses of MDMA given in conjunction with manualized therapy over the course of 18 weeks results in a significant and robust attenuation of PTSD symptoms and functional impairment as assessed using the CAPS-5 and SDS, respectively. MDMA also significantly mitigated depressive symptoms as assessed using the BDI-II. Of note, MDMA did not increase the occurrence of suicidality during the study.

      These data illustrate the potential benefit of MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD over the FDA-approved first-line pharmacotherapies sertraline and paroxetine, which have both exhibited smaller effect sizes in pivotal studies16. Previous comparison of change in CAPS score between sertraline and placebo showed effect sizes of 0.31 and 0.37 (ref. 16). Similarly, comparison of change in CAPS score between paroxetine and placebo showed effect sizes of 0.56, 0.45 and 0.09 (ref. 16). By contrast, the effect size of 0.91 demonstrated in this study between MDMA-assisted therapy and placebo with therapy was larger than that for any other previously identified PTSD pharmacotherapy16,17,18. To directly assess superiority, a head-to-head comparison of MDMA-assisted therapy with SSRIs for PTSD would be needed. Although the present study tested the effects of MDMA using a model in which both treatment groups received supportive therapy, participants who received MDMA and supportive therapy (d = 2.1) had greater improvement in PTSD change scores compared with those who received placebo with supportive therapy (d = 1.2), suggesting that MDMA enhanced the effects of supportive therapy. In clinical practice, both MDMA and supportive therapy will be components of this PTSD treatment.

      Previous research on MDMA for PTSD has suggested that those with a recent history of SSRI treatment may not respond as robustly to MDMA18. Given that 65.5% of participants in the current trial have a lifetime history of SSRI use, it is difficult to separate the ramifications of long-term SSRI treatment from the effects of treatment resistance. However, there was no obvious effect of previous SSRI use on therapeutic efficacy in this trial. Similarly, although years of PTSD diagnosis or age of onset may affect treatment efficacy, no obvious relationship was seen here between duration or onset of PTSD diagnosis and treatment efficacy.

      Serotonin and the serotonin transporter are of particular importance in the generation, consolidation, retrieval and reconsolidation of fear memories19,20. Reduced serotonin transporter levels (which result in greater amounts of extracellular serotonin) have been shown to predict propensity to develop PTSD21, increase fear and anxiety-related behaviors22, and induce greater amygdalar blood oxygenation level-dependent (BOLD) activity in response to fearful images23. There is extensive serotonergic innervation of the amygdala, and amygdalar serotonin levels have been shown to increase following exposure to stressful and fear-inducing stimuli24. MDMA enhances the extinction of fear memories in mice through increased expression of brain-derived neurotrophic factor in the amygdala, and human neuroimaging studies have demonstrated that MDMA is associated with attenuated amygdalar BOLD activity during presentation of negative emotional stimuli25. Together these data suggest that MDMA may exert its therapeutic effects through a well-conserved mechanism of amygdalar serotonergic function that regulates fear-based behaviors and contributes to the maintenance of PTSD. Perhaps by reopening an oxytocin-dependent critical period of neuroplasticity that typically closes after adolescence15, MDMA may facilitate the processing and release of particularly intractable, potentially developmental, fear-related memories.

      It is intriguing to speculate that the pharmacological properties of MDMA, when combined with therapy, may produce a 'window of tolerance,' in which participants are able to revisit and process traumatic content without becoming overwhelmed or encumbered by hyperarousal and dissociative symptoms26. MDMA-assisted therapy may facilitate recall of negative or threatening memories with greater self-compassion27 and less PTSD-related shame and anger28. Additionally, the acute prosocial and interpersonal effects of MDMA25,29 may support the quality of the therapeutic alliance, a potentially important factor relating to PTSD treatment adherence30 and outcome31. Indeed, clinicians have suggested that "MDMA may catalyze therapeutic processing by allowing patients to stay emotionally engaged while revisiting traumatic experiences without becoming overwhelmed"32.

      Given that PTSD is a strong predictor of disability in both veteran and community populations33, it is promising to note that the robust reduction in PTSD and depressive symptoms identified here is complemented by a significant improvement in SDS score (for example, work and/or school, social and family functioning). Approximately 4.7 million US veterans report a service-related disability[34](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01336-3#ref-CR34 "Bureau of Labor and Statistics. Employment Situation of Veterans---2020. News release, 18 March 2021; https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/vet.pdf

                  "), costing the US government approximately $73 billion per year[35](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01336-3#ref-CR35 "Congressional Budget Office. Possible Higher Spending Paths for Veterans' Benefits (2018);
                    https://www.cbo.gov/publication/54881
      
                  "). Identification of a PTSD treatment that could improve social and family functioning and ameliorate impairment across a broad range of environmental contexts could provide major medical cost savings, in addition to improving the quality of life for veterans and others affected by this disorder.
      

      PTSD is a particularly persistent and incapacitating condition when expressed in conjunction with other disorders of mood and affect. In the present study, perhaps most compelling are the data indicating efficacy in participants with chronic and severe PTSD, and the associated comorbidities including childhood trauma, depression, suicidality, history of alcohol and substance use disorders, and dissociation, because these groups are all typically considered treatment resistant2,3,4,5,6. Given that more than 80% of those assigned a PTSD diagnosis have at least one comorbid disorder3, the identification of a therapy that is effective in those with complicated PTSD and dual diagnoses could greatly improve PTSD treatment. Additional studies should therefore be conducted to evaluate the safety and efficacy of MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD in those with specific comorbidities.

      Although recent research suggests that dissociative subtype PTSD is difficult to treat36, participants with the dissociative subtype who received MDMA-assisted therapy had significant symptom reduction that was at least similar to that of their counterparts with non-dissociative PTSD. Given that this covariate was significant, it warrants further study. Furthermore, given that other treatments for PTSD are not consistently effective for those with the dissociative subtype, these data, if replicated, would indicate an important novel therapeutic niche for MDMA-assisted therapy for typically hard-to-treat populations.

      Importantly, there were no major safety issues reported in the MDMA arm of this study. Although abuse potential, cardiovascular risk and suicidality were recorded as AESIs, MDMA was not shown to induce or potentiate any of these conditions. In addition, although there was often a transient increase in blood pressure during MDMA sessions, this was expected based on phase 2 data and previous studies in healthy volunteers37. These data suggest that MDMA has an equivalent, if not better, safety profile compared with that of first-line SSRIs for the treatment of PTSD, which are known to carry a low risk of QT interval prolongation38.

      There are several limitations to the current trial. First, due to the coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) pandemic, the participant population is smaller than originally planned. However, given the power noted in this study, it is unlikely that population size was an impediment. Second, the population is relatively homogeneous and lacks racial and ethnic diversity, which should be addressed in future trials. Third, this report describes the findings of a short-term pre-specified primary outcome, 2 months after the last experimental session and 5 weeks since the final integrative therapy session; long-term follow-up data from this controlled trial will be collected to assess durability of treatment. Fourth, safety data were by necessity collected by site therapists, perhaps limiting the blinding of the data. To eliminate this effect on the primary and secondary outcome measures, all efficacy data were collected by blinded, independent raters. Last, given the subjective effects of MDMA, the blinding of participants was also challenging and possibly led to expectation effects14. However, although blinding was not formally assessed during the study, when participants were contacted to be informed of their treatment assignment at the time of study unblinding it became apparent that at least 10% had inaccurately guessed their treatment arm. Although anecdotal, at least 7 of 44 participants in the placebo group (15.9%) inaccurately believed that they had received MDMA, and at least 2 of 46 participants in the MDMA group (4.3%) inaccurately believed that they had received placebo.

      We may soon be confronted with the potentially enormous economic and social repercussions of PTSD, exacerbated by the COVID-19 pandemic. Overwhelmingly high rates of psychological and mental health impairment could be with us for years to come and are likely to impart a considerable emotional and economic burden. Novel PTSD therapeutics are desperately needed, especially for those for whom comorbidities confer treatment resistance.

      In summary, MDMA-assisted therapy induces rapid onset of treatment efficacy, even in those with severe PTSD, and in those with associated comorbidities including dissociative PTSD, depression, history of alcohol and substance use disorders, and childhood trauma. Not only is MDMA-assisted therapy efficacious in individuals with severe PTSD, but it may also provide improved patient safety. Compared with current first-line pharmacological and behavioral therapies, MDMA-assisted therapy has the potential to dramatically transform treatment for PTSD and should be expeditiously evaluated for clinical use.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment

      This study provides important new insights into how multisensory information is processed in the lateral cortex of the inferior colliculus, a poorly understood part of the auditory midbrain. By developing new imaging techniques that provide the first optical access to the lateral cortex in a living animal, the authors provide convincing in vivo evidence that this region contains separate subregions that can be distinguished by their sensory inputs and neurochemical profiles, as suggested by previous anatomical and in vitro studies. Additional information and analyses are needed, however, to allow readers to fully appreciate what was done, and the comparison of multisensory interactions between awake and anesthetized mice would benefit from being explored in more detail.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this paper, the authors provide a characterisation of auditory responses (tones, noise, and amplitude-modulated sounds) and bimodal (somatosensory-auditory) responses and interactions in the higher-order lateral cortex (LC) of the inferior colliculus (IC) and compare these characteristics with the higher order dorsal cortex (DC) of the IC - in awake and anaesthetised mice. Dan Llano's group has previously identified gaba'ergic patches (modules) in the LC distinctly receiving inputs from somatosensory structures, surrounded by matrix regions receiving inputs from the auditory cortex. They here use 2P calcium imaging combined with an implanted prism to - for the first time - get functional optical access to these subregions (modules and matrix) in the lateral cortex of IC in vivo, in order to also characterise the functional difference in these subparts of LC. They find that both DC and LC of both awake and anaesthetised mice appear to be more responsive to more complex sounds (amplitude-modulated noise) compared to pure tones and that under anesthesia the matrix of LC is more modulated by specific frequency and temporal content compared to the gabaergic modules in LC. However, while both LC and DC appear to have low-frequency preferences, this preference for low frequencies is more pronounced in DC. Furthermore, in both awake and anesthetized mice, somatosensory inputs are capable of driving responses on their own in the modules of LC, but very little (possibly not at all) in the matrix. However, bimodal interactions may be different under awake and anesthesia in LC, which warrants deeper investigation by the authors: They find, under anesthesia, more bimodal enhancement in modules of LC compared to the matrix of LC and bimodal suppression dominating the matrix of LC. In contrast, under awake conditions bimodal enhancement is almost exclusively found in the matrix of LC, and bimodal suppression dominates both matrix and modules of LC.

      The paper provides new information about how subregions with different inputs and neurochemical profiles in the higher-order auditory midbrain process auditory and multisensory information, and is useful for the auditory and multisensory circuits neuroscience community.

      Strengths:

      The major strength of this study is undoubtedly the fact that the authors for the first time provide optical access to a subcortical region (the lateral cortex of the inferior colliculus (i.e. higher order auditory midbrain)) which we know (from previous work by the same group) have optically identifiable subdivisions with unique inputs and neurotransmitter release, and plays a central role in auditory and multisensory processing. A description of basic auditory and multisensory properties of this structure is therefore very useful for understanding auditory processing and multisensory interactions in subcortical circuits.

      Weaknesses:

      I have divided my comments about weaknesses and improvements into major and minor comments. All of which I believe are addressable by the reviewers to provide a more clear picture of their characterisation of the higher-order auditory midbrain.

      Major comment:

      (1) The differences between multisensory interactions in LC in anaesthetised and awake preparations appear to be qualitatively different, though the authors claim they are similar (see also minor comment related to figure 10H for further explanation of what I mean). However, the findings in awake and anaesthetised conditions are summarised differently, and plotting of similar findings in the awake figures and anaesthetised figures are different - and different statistics are used for the same comparisons. This makes it very difficult to assess how multisensory integration in LC is different under awake and anaesthetised conditions. I suggest that the authors plot (and test with similar statistics) the summary plots in Figure 8 (i.e. Figure 8H-K) for awake data in Figure 10, and also make similar plots to Figures 10G-H for anaesthetised data. This will help the readers understand the differences between bimodal stimulation effects on awake and anaesthetised preparations - which in its current form, looks very distinct. In general, it is unclear to me why the awake data related to Figures 9 and 10 is presented in a different way for similar comparisons. Please streamline the presentation of results for anaesthetised and awake results to aid the comparison of results in different states, and explicitly state and discuss differences under awake and anaesthetised conditions.

      We thank the reviewer for the valuable suggestion. We only highlighted the similarities between the data obtained from anesthetized and awake preparations to indicate the ability to reproduce the technique in awake animals for future assessment. Identifying those similarities between the two experimental setups was based on the comparison between modules vs matrix or LC vs DC within each experimental setup (awake vs anesthetized). Therefore, the statistics were chosen differently for each setup based on the size of the subjects (n) within each experimental preparation. However, we agree with the reviewer’s comment that there are differences between the anesthetized and awake data. To examine these differences, we ran the same statistics for Figure 5 (tonotopy of LC vs. DC-anesthetic animals) and Figure 9 (tonotopy of LC vs DC-awake animals). In addition, we added a new figure after Figure 9 to separate the statistical analysis from the maps. Accordingly, Figures 4 and 5 (maps and analysis, respectively -anesthetized animals) now match Figures 9 and 10 (maps and analysis, respectively – awake animals). We also did the same thing for Figures 7 (microprism imaging of the LC - anesthetized animals), 8 (imaging of the LC from the dorsal surface - anesthetized animals) as well as Figure 11 or old Figure 10 (microprism imaging of the LC - awake animals) to address the similarities and differences of the multisensory data between awake and anesthetized animals. We edited the text accordingly in the result and discussion sections.

      (2) The claim about the degree of tonotopy in LC and DC should be aided by summary statistics to understand the degree to which tonotopy is actually present. For example, the authors could demonstrate that it is not possible/or is possible to predict above chance a cell's BF based on the group of other cells in the area. This will help understand to what degree the tonotopy is topographic vs salt and pepper. Also, it would be good to know if the gaba'ergic modules have a higher propensity of particular BFs or tonotopic structure compared to matrix regions in LC, and also if general tuning properties (e.g. tuning width) are different from the matrix cells and the ones in DC.

      Thank you for the reviewer’s suggestion. We have examined the tonotopy of LC and DC using two regression models (linear and quadratic polynomial) between the BFs of the cells and their location on the anatomical axis. Therefore, the tonotopy is indicated by a significant regression fit with a high R2 between the BFs the cells, and their location within each structure. For the DC, there was a significant regression fit between the BFs of the cells and their locations over the rostromedial to the caudolateral axis. Additionally, the R2 of the quadratic polynomial fit was higher than that of the linear fit, which indicates a nonlinear distribution of cells based on their BFs, which is consistent with the presence of high-low-high tuning over the DC surface. Given that the microprism cannot image the whole area of the LC, and it images a slightly different area in each animal, it was very difficult to get a consistent map for the LC as well as a solid conclusion about the LC tonotopy. However, we have examined the regression fit between the BFs of cells and their location along the main four anatomical axes of the field of view obtained from each animal (dorsal to ventral), (rostral to caudal), (dorsocaudal to ventrorostral) (dorsorostral to ventrocoudal). Unlike the DC, the LC imaged via microprism showed a lower R2 for both linear and quadratic regression mostly in the dorsoventral axis. We show the fitting curves of these regressions in Figure 4-figure supplement 1 (anesthetized data) and Figure 9-figure supplement 1 (awake data). Despite the inconsistent tonotopy of the LC imaged via microprism, the modules were found to have a higher BFs median at 10 kHz compared to matrix that had a lower BFs median at 7.1 kHz, which was consistent across the anesthetized and awake animals. We have added these results in the corresponding spot in the results section (lines 193-197 and 361-364). We have examined the tuning width using the binarized receptive field sum (RFS) method in which each neuron was given a value of 1 if it responds to a single frequency (Narrow RF), but this value increases if the neuron responds to more neighbor frequencies (wide RF). We did this calculation across all the sound levels. Both DC and LC of the anesthetized animals had higher RFS mean and median than those of awake animals given that ketamine was known to broaden the RF. However, in both preparations (anesthetized and awake), the DC had a higher RFS mean than that of the LC, which could be consistent with the finding that the DC had a relatively lower SMI than the LC. To show these new data, we made a new Figure 10-figure supplement 1, and we edited the text accordingly [lines 372-379 & 527-531].

      (3) Throughout the paper more information needs to be given about the number of cells, sessions, and animals used in each panel, and what level was used as n in the statistical tests. For example, in Figure 4 I can not tell if the 4 mice shown for LC imaging are the only 4 mice imaged, and used in the Figure 4E summary or if these are just examples. In general, throughout the paper, it is currently not possible to assess how many cells, sessions, and animals the data shown comes from.

      Thank you for the reviewer’s comment. We do apologize for not adding this information. We added all the information regarding the size of the statistical subjects (number of cells or number of animals used) for every test outcome. To keep the flow of the text, we added the details of the statistical tests in the legends of the figures.

      (4) Throughout the paper, to better understand the summary maps and plots, it would be helpful to see example responses of the different components investigated. For example, given that module cells appear to have more auditory offset responses, it would be helpful to see what the bimodal, sound-only, and somatosensory responses look like in example cells in LC modules. This also goes for just general examples of what the responses to auditory and somatosensory inputs look like in DC vs LC. In general example plots of what the responses actually look like are needed to better understand what is being summarised.

      Thank you for the reviewer’s comment and suggestion. We modified Figure 6 and the text accordingly to include all the significant examples of cells discussed throughout the work.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The study describes differences in responses to sounds and whisker deflections as well as combinations of these stimuli in different neurochemically defined subsections of the lateral and dorsal cortex of the inferior colliculus in anesthetised and awake mice.

      Strengths:

      The main achievement of the work lies in obtaining the data in the first place as this required establishing and refining a challenging surgical procedure to insert a prism that enabled the authors to visualise the lateral surface of the inferior colliculus. Using this approach, the authors were then able to provide the first functional comparison of neural responses inside and outside of the GABA-rich modules of the lateral cortex. The strongest and most interesting aspects of the results, in my opinion, concern the interactions of auditory and somatosensory stimulation. For instance, the authors find that a) somatosensory-responses are strongest inside the modules and b) somatosensory-auditory suppression is stronger in the matrix than in the modules. This suggests that, while somatosensory inputs preferentially target the GABA-rich modules, they do not exclusively target GABAergic neurons within the modules (given that the authors record exclusively from excitatory neurons we wouldn't expect to see somatosensory responses if they targeted exclusively GABAergic neurons), and that the GABAergic neurons of the modules (consistent with previous work) preferentially impact neurons outside the modules, i.e. via long-range connections.

      Weaknesses:

      While the findings are of interest to the subfield they have only rather limited implications beyond it. The writing is not as precise as it could be. Consequently, the manuscript is unclear in some places. For instance, the text is somewhat confusing as to whether there is a difference in the pattern (modules vs matrix) of somatosensory-auditory suppression between anesthetized and awake animals. Furthermore, there are aspects of the results which are potentially very interesting but have not been explored. For example, there is a remarkable degree of clustering of response properties evident in many of the maps included in the paper. Taking Figure 7 for instance, rather than a salt and pepper organization we can see auditory responsive neurons clumped together and non-responsive neurons clumped together and in the panels below we can see off-responsive neurons forming clusters (although it is not easy to make out the magenta dots against the black background). This degree of clustering seems much stronger than expected and deserves further attention.

      Thank you for the reviewer’s comment. We do apologize if some areas in the manuscript were imprecisely written. For anesthetized and awake data, we have only emphasized the similarities between the two setups to show the ability to use microprism in awake animals for future assessment. To highlight the differences between anesthetized and awake animals, we have now run uniform statistics for all the data collected from both setups. Accordingly, we have edited Figures 4 and 5 (tonotopy-anesthetized) to match Figures 9 and new Figure 10 (tonotopy-awake). Also, we edited Figures 7 and 8 (multisensory- anesthetized) to match Figure 11 or old Figure 10 (multisensory- awake). We edited the text accordingly in the results section and discussed the possible differences between anesthetized and awake data in the discussion section [lines 521-553].

      We agree with the reviewer’s comment that the cells were topographically clustered based on their responses. Some of these clusters include the somatosensory responsive cells, which were located mostly in the modules (Figures 7D and 8E). Also, the auditory responsive cells with offset responses were clustered mostly in the modules (Figures 7C and 8F). Accordingly, we have edited the text to emphasize this finding.

      We noticed also that some responsive cells to the tested stimulations were surrounded by nonresponsive cells. By comparing the response of the cells to different stimuli we found that while Figures 7 and 11 (old Figure 10) showed only the response of the cells to auditory stimulation (unmodulated broadband noise at 80 dB) and somatosensory stimulation (whisker deflection), some nonresponsive cells to these specific stimulations were found to be responsive to pure tones of different frequencies and amplitudes. As an indicator of the cells' viability, we additionally examined the spontaneous activity of the nonresponsive cells across different data sets. We note that spontaneous activity was rare for all cells even among the responsive cells to sound or somatosensory stimulations. This finding could be related to the possibility that the 2P imaging of calcium signals may not be sensitive enough to track spontaneous activity that may originate from single spikes. However, in some data sets, we have found that the cells that did not respond to any tested stimuli showed spontaneous activity when no stimulation was given indicating the viability of those cells. We have addressed the activity of the non-responsive cells in the text along with a new Figure 11-figure supplement 1.

      We changed the magenta into a green color to be suitable for the dark background. Also, we have completely changed the color palette of all of our images to be suitable for color-blind readers as suggested by reviewer 1.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      The lateral cortex of the inferior colliculus (LC) is a region of the auditory midbrain noted for receiving both auditory and somatosensory input. Anatomical studies have established that somatosensory input primarily impinges on "modular" regions of the LC, which are characterized by high densities of GABAergic neurons, while auditory input is more prominent in the "matrix" regions that surround the modules. However, how auditory and somatosensory stimuli shape activity, both individually and when combined, in the modular and matrix regions of the LC has remained unknown.

      The major obstacle to progress has been the location of the LC on the lateral edge of the inferior colliculus where it cannot be accessed in vivo using conventional imaging approaches. The authors overcame this obstacle by developing methods to implant a microprism adjacent to the LC. By redirecting light from the lateral surface of the LC to the dorsal surface of the microprism, the microprism enabled two-photon imaging of the LC via a dorsal approach in anesthetized and awake mice. Then, by crossing GAD-67-GFP mice with Thy1-jRGECO1a mice, the authors showed that they could identify LC modules in vivo using GFP fluorescence while assessing neural responses to auditory, somatosensory, and multimodal stimuli using Ca2+ imaging. Critically, the authors also validated the accuracy of the microprism technique by directly comparing results obtained with a microprism to data collected using conventional imaging of the dorsal-most LC modules, which are directly visible on the dorsal IC surface, finding good correlations between the approaches.

      Through this innovative combination of techniques, the authors found that matrix neurons were more sensitive to auditory stimuli than modular neurons, modular neurons were more sensitive to somatosensory stimuli than matrix neurons, and bimodal, auditory-somatosensory stimuli were more likely to suppress activity in matrix neurons and enhance activity in modular neurons. Interestingly, despite their higher sensitivity to somatosensory stimuli than matrix neurons, modular neurons in the anesthetized prep were far more responsive to auditory stimuli than somatosensory stimuli (albeit with a tendency to have offset responses to sounds). This suggests that modular neurons should not be thought of as primarily representing somatosensory input, but rather as being more prone to having their auditory responses modified by somatosensory input. However, this trend was reversed in the awake prep, where modular neurons became more responsive to somatosensory stimuli than auditory stimuli. Thus, to this reviewer, the most intriguing result of the present study is the dramatic extent to which neural responses in the LC changed in the awake preparation. While this is not entirely unexpected, the magnitude and stimulus specificity of the changes caused by anesthesia highlight the extent to which higher-level sensory processing is affected by anesthesia and strongly suggest that future studies of LC function should be conducted in awake animals.

      Together, the results of this study expand our understanding of the functional roles of matrix and module neurons by showing that responses in LC subregions are more complicated than might have been expected based on anatomy alone. The development of the microprism technique for imaging the LC will be a boon to the field, finally enabling much-needed studies of LC function in vivo. The experiments were well-designed and well-controlled, and the limitations of two-photon imaging for tracking neural activity are acknowledged. Appropriate statistical tests were used. There are three main issues the authors should address, but otherwise, this study represents an important advance in the field.

      (1) Please address whether the Thy1 mouse evenly expresses jRGECO1a in all LC neurons. It is known that these mice express jRGECO1a in subsets of neurons in the cerebral cortex, and similar biases in the LC could have biased the results here.

      Thank you for the reviewer’s comment. In the work published by Dana, et al, the expression of jRGECO1a in all Thy1 mouse lines was determined by the brightness of the jRGECO1a in the soma. Given that some cells do not show a detected level of jRGECO1a fluorescence until activated, the difference in expression shown in different brain regions could be related to the level of neuronal activity at the time of sample processing and not the expression levels of the indicator itself. To the best of our knowledge, there is no antibody for jRGECO1a, which can be used for detecting the expression levels of the indicator regardless of the neuronal activity. To test the hypothesis that DC and LC have different levels of jRGECO1a, we examined the expression levels of jRGECO1a after we perfused the mice with high potassium saline to elicit a general neuronal depolarization in the whole brain. Then we immunostained against NeuN (the neuronal marker) to quantify the percentage of the neurons expressing jRGECO1a to the total number of neurons (indicated by NeuN). To have a fair comparison, we restricted our analysis to include the areas imaged only by 2P as some regions were not accessible by microprism such as the deep ventral regions of the LC. There is a similar % of cells expressing jRGECO1a in DC and LC. As expected, the neurons expressing jRGECO1a were only nonGABAergic cells. We addressed these findings in the new Figure 3-figure Supplement 1 as well as the corresponding text in the results [lines 178-184] and methods sections [lines 878-892].

      (2) I suggest adding a paragraph or two to the discussion to address the large differences observed between the anesthetized and awake preparations. For example, somatosensory responses in the modules increased dramatically from 14.4% in the anesthetized prep to 63.6% in the awake prep. At the same time, auditory responses decreased from 52.1% to 22%. (Numbers for anesthetized prep include auditory responses and somatosensory + auditory responses.). In addition, the tonotopy of the DC shifted in the awake condition. These are intriguing changes that are not entirely expected from the switch to an awake prep and therefore warrant discussion.

      Thank you for the reviewer’s comment. To determine if differences exist between anesthetized and awake data, we have now used the same statistics and edited Figures 4,5,7,8,9, and 10 as well as added a new Figure 11. Accordingly, we have edited the result section and added a paragraph addressing the possible differences between the two preparations in the Discussion section [lines 521-553]..

      (3) For somatosensory stimuli, the authors used whisker deflection, but based on the anatomy, this is presumably not the only somatosensory stimulus that affects LC. The authors could help readers place the present results in a broader context by discussing how other somatosensory stimuli might come into play. For example, might a larger percentage of modular neurons be activated by somatosensory stimuli if more diverse stimuli were used?

      We agree with the reviewer’s point. Indeed, the modules are receiving different inputs from different somatosensory sources such as somatosensory cortex and dorsal column nuclei, which could indicate that the activity of the cells in the modular areas could be evoked by different types of somatosensory stimulations, which is an open area for future studies. We have discussed this point in the revised Discussion section [lines 516-520].

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Minor comments:

      (1) Figure 3H: The lateral surface seems quite damaged by the prism. An example slice of the imaging area of each mouse would help the reader better understand the extent of damage the prism leaves in the area of interest.

      Thank you for the reviewer’s comment. We already have included such images in Figures 4A, 7A, and 9A to present the field of view of all prism experiments. However, we need to clarify the point of tissue damage. The insertion of microprism may be associated with some tissue damage as a result of making the pocket for the microprism to be inserted, but it is not possible to get neuronal signals from a damaged field of view. Therefore, we do not believe that there is tissue damage to the parts of the LC imaged by microprism. However, there may be some areas where the microprism is not in direct contact with the LC surface. These areas are located mostly in the periphery of the field of view, and they are completely black as they are out of focus (i.e., the left side of Figure 3B). The right side of Figure 3b as well as Figure 3A have some black areas, which present the vasculatures, where there are no red signals because of the lack of jRGECO1a expression in those areas.

      (2) In relation to the data shown in Figure 4E it is claimed that LC is tuned to higher frequencies (lines 195-196). However, the majority of cells appear to be tuned to frequencies below 14kHz (with a median of 7.5 kHz), which is quite low for the mouse. I assume that the authors mean frequencies that are relatively higher than the DC, but it is worth mentioning in the text that the BFs found in the LC are quite low-frequency responses for the mouse.

      Thank you for the reviewer’s comment, which we agree with. We edited this part by acknowledging that around 50% of the LC cells had a low-frequency bias to 5 and 7.1 kHz. Then we mentioned that most of the LC cells are tuned to relatively higher frequencies than those of the DC [lines 215-218].

      (3) Figure 5A-C: Is it the tone-responsive cells plus an additional ~22% of cells that respond to AM, or are there also cells that respond to tones that do not respond to AM. Please break down to which degree the tone and AM responsive cells are overlapping.

      Thank you for the reviewer’s comment and suggestion. We broke down the responsive cells into cells responsive only to pure tone (tone selective cells or Tone-sel) or to only AM-noise (noise selective cells or Noise-sel) as well as cells responding to both sounds (nonselective cells or Non-sel). We examined the fractions of these categories of cells in both LC and DC within all responsive neurons. Accordingly, we have edited Figure 5A-C as well as the text [lines 229-243].

      (4) Figure 5D. It is unclear to me how a cell is classified as SMI or TMI responsive after computing the SMI or TMI for each cell. What statistic was used to determine if the cell was responsive or not?

      Thank you for the reviewer’s comment. We do apologize for the confusion caused by Figures 5D and E. These figures do not show the values of SMI or TMI, respectively. Rather, the figures show the percentage of the spectrally or temporally modulated cells, respectively. At each sound level, the cells were categorized into two main types. The spectrally modulated cells are those responsive to pure tones or unmodulated noise, so they can detect the spectral features of the sound (old Figure 5D or new Figure 5E). The temporally modulated cells are those responsive to AM-noise, so they can detect the temporal features of the sound of complex spectra like the broadband noise (old Figure 5E or new Figure 5F). To clear this confusion, we removed the words SMI and TMI from the figures, and then we renamed the x-axis label into “% of spectrally modulated cells” and “% of temporally modulated cells” for Figures 5D (new 5E) and E (new 5F), respectively.

      (5) Figure 5 D, E: Is the decrease in SMI and TMI modulated cells in the modules a result of simply lower sensitivity to sounds (i.e. higher response thresholds)? If a cell responds to neither tone, AM, or noise it will have a low SMI and TMI index. If this is the case that affects the interpretation, as it is then not a decrease in sensitivity to spectral or temporal modulation, but instead a difference in overall sound sensitivity.

      Thank you for the reviewer’s comment. We apologize for the confusion about Figures 5E and D, which did not show the SMI and TMI values. Rather, they show the percentage of spectrally or temporally modulated cells, respectively, as explained in our previous response. Therefore, Figure 5D shows the percentage of cells that can detect the spectral features of sound, while Figure 5E shows the percentage of cells that can detect the temporal features of sounds of complex spectra like broadband noise. Accordingly, Figures 5D and E show the sensitivity to different features of sound and not the overall sound sensitivity.

      (6) Figure 7 and 8: What is the false positive rate expected of the responsive cells using the correlation cell flagging criteria? Especially given that the fraction of cells responsive to somatosensory stimulation in LC (matrix) is 0.88% and 1.3% in DC, it is important to know what the expected false positive rate is in order to be able to state that there are actually somatosensory responses there or if this is what you would expect from false positives given the inclusion test used. Please provide an estimate of the false positive rate given your inclusion test and show that the rate found is statistically significantly above that level - and show this rate with a line in Figure 7 H, I.

      Thank you for the reviewer’s comment. To test the efficiency of the correlation method to determine the responsive cells, we initially ran an ROC curve comparing the automated method to a blinded human interpretation. The AUC of the ROC curve was 0.88. This high AUC value indicates that the correlation method can rank the random responsive cells than the random nonresponsive cells. At the correlation coefficient (0.4), which was the cutoff value to determine the responsive cells for somatosensory stimulation, the specificity was 87% and the sensitivity 72%, the positive predictive value was 73%, and the negative predictive value was 86%. Although the above percentages indicate the efficiency of the correlation method, we excluded all the false responsive cells from the analysis. Therefore, the fractions of cells in the graphs are the true responsive cells with no contamination of the non-responsive cells. We also modified Figures 7H and I to match the other data sets obtained from awake animals. Therefore, Figures 7H and I no longer show the average of the responsive cells. Instead, they show the % of different fractions of responsive cells within each cellular motif (modules and matrix). Accordingly, we believe that there is no need to include a rate line on the graph. We added the section describing the validation part to the methods section [lines 808-815].

      (7) Figure 7: Please clarify what is meant by a cell responding to 'both responding to somatosensory and auditory stimulation'. Does it mean that the cell has responses to both auditory and somatosensory stimulation when presented individually or if it responds to both presented together? If it is the former, I don't understand how the number to both can be higher than the number of somatosensory alone (as both requires it also to respond to somatosensory alone). If it is the latter (combined auditory and somatosensory) then it seems that somatosensory inputs remove the responsiveness of most cells that were otherwise responsive to auditory alone (e.g. in the module while 42% respond to sound alone, combined stimulation would leave only 10% of cells responsive). Please clarify what exactly the authors are plotting and stating here.

      Thank you for the reviewer’s comment. The responsive cells in Figure 7 are divided into three categories. Each category has a completely different group of cells. The first category is for the cells responding only to auditory stimulation (auditory-selective cells or Aud-sel). The second category is for the cells that respond only to somatosensory stimulation (somatosensory selective cells or Som-sel). The third category is for the cells that respond to both auditory and somatosensory stimulations when both stimulations are presented individually (auditory/somatosensory nonselective cells or Aud/Som-nonsel). Accordingly, the number of cells may be different across all these categories. We have clarified this part in the text [lines 299-303]. We have modified Figures 7, 8, and 11 (old Figure 10) to match the data from anesthetized and awake animals, so Figures 7H and I now show the collective % of the cells from all animals within modules vs matrix.

      (8) Why are the inferential statistics used in Figure 9F (chi-square test) and Figure 5A-C (t-test) when it tests the same thing (the only difference is one is anaesthetised data and the other awake)? Indeed, all Figure 9 and 10 (awake data figures) plots use chi-square tests to test differences in percentages instead of t-tests used in earlier (anaesthetised data figures) plots to test differences in percentages between groups. Please clarify the reason for this change in statistics used for similar comparisons.

      Thank you for the reviewer’s comment. Imaging the LC via microprism from awake animals confirmed the ability to run this technique with no interference to the ambulatory functions of the animals. Therefore, the main goal was to highlight the similarities between the data obtained from awake and anesthetized setups by highlighting the comparison between the LC and DC or between modules and matrix within each preparation (anesthetized vs awake). Accordingly, the statistics used to run these comparisons were chosen based on the number of the tested animals at each setup (7 anesthetized animals and 3 awake animals for prism insertion). The low number of animals used for awake data made us use the number of cells collectively from all animals instead of the number of animals, so we used the Chi-square test to examine the differences in percentages.

      (9) Figure 10H: The main text describes the results shown here as similar to what was seen in anaesthetised animals. But it looks to me like the results in awake animals are qualitatively different from the multisensory interaction seen in anaesthetised animals. In anaesthetised animals the authors find that there is a higher chance of auditory responses being enhanced by somatosensory inputs when cells are in the modules compared to in the matrix. However, in awake data, this relationship is flipped, with more bimodal enhancement found in the matrix compared to the modules. Furthermore, almost all cells in the modules are suppressed by combined somatosensory input which looks like it is different from what is found in anaesthestised mice and what is described in the discussion: 'we observed that combined auditory-somatosensory stimulation generally suppressed neural responses to auditory stimuli and that this suppression was most prominent in the LC matrix'.

      Thank you for the reviewer’s comment. Our statement was meant to show how the data obtained from awake and anesthetized animals were generally similar. However, we agree that the statement may not be suitable due to the possible differences between awake and anesthetized animals. To address a fair comparison between the anesthetized and awake preparations, we ran similar statistics and graphs for Figures 7, 8, and 11 (old Figure 10). Given that the areas occupied by modules and matrix are different across animals due to the irregular shape of the modules, we chose to run a chi-square test for all the data to quantify the collective % of responding cells within modules vs matrix from all tested animals for each experimental setup (anesthetized vs awake). The anesthetized and awake animals similarly showed that modules and matrix had higher fractions of auditory responsive cells. However, matrix had more cells responding to auditory stimulations than modules, while modules had more cells responding to somatosensory stimulation than matrix. In contrast, while the anesthetized animals showed higher fractions of offset auditory-responsive cells, which were mostly clustered in the modules, the offset auditory-responsive cells were very rare in awake animals (6 cells/one animal).

      Based on the fractions of cells with suppressed or enhanced auditory response induced by bimodal stimulation, the data obtained from anesthetized and awake animals showed that the auditory response in the matrix was suppressed more than enhanced by bimodal stimulation. In contrast, modules had different profiles across the experimental setups and locations. For instance, the modules imaged via microprism in the anesthetized and awake animals showed suppressed more than enhanced auditory responses, but modules imaged from the dorsal surface in anesthetized animals showed enhanced more than suppressed auditory responses. Additionally, modules had less suppressed and more enhanced auditory responses compared to matrix in the anesthetized animals regardless of the location of the modules (microprism or dorsal surface). Yet, modules from awake animals had more suppressed and less enhanced auditory responses compared to matrix. We have addressed these differences in the results and discussion section.

      Additional minor comments that I think the authors could use to aid their manuscript clarity:

      (1) The figure colour selection - especially in Figures 7 and 8 - is really hard to tell apart. Please choose more distinct colours, and a colour scheme that is appropriate for colour blind readers.

      Thank you for the reviewer’s suggestion. We have noticed that the magenta color assigned for the cells with offset responses was very difficult to distinguish from the black background. We have changed the magenta color to green to be different from the color of other cells. Using Photoshop, we chose a color scheme that is suitable for color-blind readers in all our maps.

      (2) The sentence in lines 331-334 should be rephrased for clarity.

      Thank you for the reviewer’s suggestion. We have rephrased the statement for clarity [lines 364-371].

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      As mentioned in the public review the strong clustering evident in some of the maps (some of which may be related to module/matrix differences but certainly not all of it) seems worth scrutinizing further. Would we expect such a strong spatial segregation of auditory responsive and non-responsive neurons? Would we expect response properties (e.g. off-responsiveness) other than frequency tuning to show evidence of a topographic arrangement in the IC? In addressing this it would, of course, be important to rule out that this clustering is not down to some trivial experimental variables and truly reflects functional organization. For instance, are the patches of non-responsive neurons found in parts of the field of view with poor visibility, poor labelling, etc which may explain why it is difficult to pick up responses there? Are the neurons in non-responsive areas otherwise active (i.e. do they show spontaneous activity) or could they be 'dead'? Could the way neuropil signals are dealt with play a role here (it is weighted by 0.4 which strikes me as quite low)? In relation to this, I am also wondering to what extent the extreme overrepresentation (Figure 4) of neurons with a BF of 5kHz (some of this is, of course, down to the fact that the lower end of the frequency range was 5kHz and that the step size was 0.5 octaves), especially in the DC, is to be interpreted.

      Thank you for the reviewer’s comment. Before analysis, the ROIs of all cells were set around the cell bodies using the jRGECO1a signals as a reference, so all cells (responsive and nonresponsive) were collected from areas of good visibility of jRGECO1a signals. In other words, no cells were collected from regions having poor jRGECO1a signals. In Figures 7, 8, and 11 (old Figure 10), the cells showed response either only to unmodulated broadband noise at 80 dB as an auditory stimulus or to whisker deflection with specific speed and power as a somatosensory stimulus. Given that the two stimuli above had specific parameters, the remaining non-responsive cells may respond to auditory or somatosensory stimulations with other features. For instance, some nonresponsive cells to the unmodulated broadband noise were responding to pure tones with different amplitudes and frequencies or to different AM-noise with different amplitudes and modulation frequencies.  Also, these nonresponsive cells may not respond to any of our tested stimuli and may respond to other sensory stimulations. Some of the non-responsive cells showed spontaneous activity when no stimulations were presented. However, we can not rule out the possibility that some of these nonresponsive cells may not be viable. We have addressed the clustering properties in the revised version of the manuscript in the corresponding spots of the results and discussion sections. We have added a new supplementary figure (Figure 11- Figure Supplement 1) to show how the nonresponsive cells to the unmodulated noise may respond to other types of sound and to show the spontaneous activity of some non-responsive cells.

      For the neuropil, previous reports used the contamination factor (r) in a range of 0.3-0.7 (we referenced these studies in the method section [line 776) based on the tissue or cells imaged, vasculatures, and the objective used for imaging. Therefore, we optimized the contamination factor (r) to be 0.4 through a preliminary analysis based on the tissue we image (LC), and the objective used (16x with NA = 0.8 and 3 mm as a working distance).

      We agree that there is an overrepresentation of 5 kHz as the best tuning frequency for DC cells. The previous report (A. B. Wong & Borst, 2019) showed a large zone of the DC where cells were tuned to (2-8 kHz). Given that 5kHz was the lowest tested frequency in our experiment, we think that the low-frequency bias of the DC surface is consistent between studies. This finding also could be supported by the electrophysiology data obtained by spanning the recording electrodes through the IC tissue along the dorsoventral axis. In those experiments, the cells were tuned to lower frequencies at the dorsal surface of the IC.

      We have changed the magenta-colored cells to green ones, so it will be easier to identify the cells. As required by another reviewer, we changed the color pallets of some images and cellular maps to be suitable for color-blind readers. 

      The manuscript would benefit from more precise language in a number of places, especially in the results section.

      Line 220/221, for instance: "... a significant fraction of cells that did not respond to pure tones did respond to AM-noise" Strictly speaking, this sentence suggests that you considered here only the subset of neurons that did not respond to pure tones and then ran a test on that subset. The test that was done seems to suggest though that the authors tested whether the percentage of responsive cells was greater for pure tones or for AM noise.

      Thank you for the reviewer’s comment. We do apologize for the confusion. In the revised manuscript, we categorized the cells according to their response into cells responding to pure tone only (tone-selective cells or Tone-sel), Am-noise only (noise-selective cells or Nose-sel), and to both pure tone and am-noise (nonselective cells or Non-sel). We have modified Figure 5 accordingly. We did the same thing for the data obtained from awake animals and showed that in a new figure to easily match the analysis done for the anesthetized animals.

      Please refer to the figure panels in the text in consecutive order. 2B, for instance, is mentioned after 2H.

      Thank you for the reviewer’s comment. Throughout the paper, we kept the consecutive order of the figure panels within each figure to be in a smooth flow with the text. Yet, figure 2 was just the only exception for a good reason. Figure 2 is a complex one that includes many panels to show a parallel comparison between LC imaged via microprism and DC through single photon images, two-photon images, validating laser lesioning, and histology. Accordingly, we navigated many panels of the figure to efficiently highlight the aspects of this comparison. We prefer to keep Figure 2 as one figure with its current format to show this parallel comparison between LC and DC.

      The legend for Figure 2 could be clearer. For instance, there are two descriptions for panel D. Line 1009: "(C-E)" [i.e. C, D, E] and line 1010: "(D and F)".

      Thank you for the reviewer’s comment. It should be C and E, not C-E. We have fixed the mistake [line 1224]

      Line 275: What does 'with no preference' mean?

      Thank you for the reviewer’s comment. We do apologize for the confusion. There are three categories of cells. Some cells respond only to auditory stimulation, while others respond to only somatosensory stimulation. However, there is another group of cells that respond nonselectively to auditory and somatosensory stimulations or Aud/Som-nonsel cells. We edited the sentence to be clearer [lines 303-304].

      Line 281 (and other places): What does 'normalized against modules' mean?

      Thank you for the reviewer’s comment. This normalization was done by dividing the number of responsive cells of the same response type in the matrix by that in the modules. Therefore, the value taken by modules was always 1 and the value taken by the matrix is something around 1. Accordingly, the value for matrix could be > 1 if matrix had more cells than modules. In contrast, the value of matrix would be < 1 if matrix had fewer cells than modules. In the revised version, we used this normalization method to make the revised Figures 5C and 10C to describe the cell fractions responding to pure tone only, AM-noise only, or to both stimuli in the matrix vs modules. 

      Sentence starting on line 288. I don't find that point to be as obvious from the figures as the sentences seem to suggest. Are we to compare magenta points (auditory off cells) from 7C with green points in 7F?

      Thank you for the reviewer’s comment. We came to this conclusion based on our visual comparison of magenta points (now green in the revised version to increase the visibility) representing the auditory offset cells in Figure 7C and the green points in Figure 7F representing the cells responding to both somatosensory and auditory stimulations. In the revised manuscript, we statistically examined if the percentage of onset auditory response and offset auditory responses are different within the responsive cells to both somatosensory and auditory stimulations in the modules vs matrix. We have found that most of the cells responding to both somatosensory and auditory stimulations inside the modules had offset auditory responses, which could indicate a level of multisensory integration between somatosensory input and the offset auditory responses in these cells. We have added the statistical results to the revised manuscript to address this effect [lines 312-317]

      Lines 300-302: "These data suggest that the module/matrix system permits preservation of distinct multimodal response properties in the face of massive integration of inputs in the LC". First, I'm not quite sure what that sentence means. Second, it would be more appropriate for the discussion. Third, the fact that we are more likely to find response enhancement in the modules than in the matrix is nicely consistent with the idea (supported by work from the senior author's lab and others) that excitatory somatosensory input predominantly targets neurons in the modules (which is why we see mostly response enhancement in the modules) and that this input targets GABAergic neurons which then project to and inhibit neurons both outside and inside of their module. Therefore, I would recommend that the authors replace the aforementioned sentence with one that interprets these results in light of what we know about this somatosensory-auditory circuitry.

      Thank you for the reviewer’s comment. Despite the massive multimodal inputs, the LC receives from auditory vs nonauditory regions, the module/matrix system is a platform for distinct multimodal responses indicated by more somatosensory responsive cells in modules versus more auditory responsive cells in matrix, which matches the anatomical differences that were reported before. We edited the sentence in the light of the comparison between the data obtained from awake and anesthetized animals and moved it to the discussion section [lines 503-506].

      The term 'LC imaged via microprism' is used dozens of times throughout the manuscript. Replacing it with a suitable acronym or initialism could improve the flow of the text and would make some of the sentences less cumbersome.

      Thank you for the reviewer’s suggestion. We changed the term “LC imaged via microprism” into LC (microprism) throughout the revised manuscript.

      5A-C: It is unclear what is being compared here. What are the Ns? Different animals?

      Thank you for the reviewer’s comment. We do apologize for this missing information. We have added the number of subjects used in every statistical test in each corresponding figure legend.

      5G: minus symbol missing on the y-axis.

      Thank you for the reviewer’s comment. We gladly have fixed that.

      Figure 6: Are these examples or population averages?

      Thank you for the reviewer’s question. Every figure panel of the old Figure 6 represents a single trace of an example cell. However, we modified Figure 6 to include more examples of cells showing different responses complying with another reviewer’s suggestion. Each panel of the new Figure 6 represents the average response of 5 stimulations of the corresponding stimulus type. We preferred to show the average signal because it was the one used for the subsequent analysis.

      How are module borders defined?

      Thank you for the reviewer’s question. The modules were defined based on the intensity of the green channel that shows the expression of the GFP signals. The boundaries of modules were determined according to the distinction between high and low GFP signal boundaries of the modules. This step was done before data analysis to avoid any bias.

      7JKL: How are these to be interpreted? Does panel 7K, for instance, indicate that the fraction of neurons showing 'on' responses was roughly twice as large in the matrix than in the modules and that the fraction of neurons showing 'off' responses was roughly 10 times larger in the modules than in the matrix (the mean seems to be at about 1/10).

      Thank you for the reviewer’s comment. The data represented by Figures 7J-L defined the normalization of the number of cells of the same response type in the matrix against the modules. This normalization was done per animal, and then the data of the matrix were plotted against the normalization line at 1 representing the modules. The matrix will be claimed to have more cells than modules if the median of the matrix values > 1. In contrast, the matrix will be claimed to have fewer cells than the modules if the median of the matrix values < 1. Finally, if the median of matrix values = 1, this means there is no difference between matrix and modules. However, to match the data obtained from anesthetized animals (Figures 7 and 8) with those obtained from awake animals (Figure 11 or old Figure 10), we ran all data through the Chi-square test in the revised manuscript. Therefore, the format of Figures 7K-L was changed in the revised manuscript, so they became new Figures 7I-K.

      10A suggests that significantly more than half the neurons shown here are not auditory responsive. Perhaps I am misinterpreting something here but isn't that in contrast to what is shown in panel 9F?

      Thank you for the reviewer’s comment. The data shown in Figure 10A (or revised Figure 11A) represents the cellular response to only one stimulus (broadband noise at 80 dB with no modulation frequency), while Figure 9F (revised 10B) represents the cells responding to varieties of auditory stimulations of different combinations of frequencies and amplitudes (pure tones) as well as to AM-noise of different amplitudes and modulation frequencies. Accordingly, the old Figure 9F or revised Figure 10B shows different cell types based on their responses. For instance, some cells respond only to pure tone. Others respond only to AM-noise or to both pure tones and AM-noise. This may also support that the nonresponsive cells in Figure 10A (revised 11A) can respond to other types of sound features.

      The way I understood panels 7L and 8K there were more suppressed neurons in the matrix than in the modules (line 296: "cells in the modules had a higher odds of having an enhancement response to bimodal stimulation than matrix, while cells in the matrix had a higher odds of having a suppressive response to bimodal stimulation"). Now, panel 10F indicates that in awake mice there is a greater proportion of suppressed neurons in the modules than in the matrix. I may very well have overlooked or misread something but I may not be the only reader confused by this so please clarify.

      Thank you for the reviewer’s comment. We do apologize for this confusion. The ambiguity between Figures 7 and 8 (anesthetized animals) as well as Figure 10 (awake animals) comes from the fact that different statistics have been used for each preparation. In the revised version, we have fixed that by running the same statistics for all the data, and we accordingly revised Figures 7, 8, and 10 (new Figure 11). In brief, the matrix preserves a higher percentage of cells with suppressed auditory responses than those with enhanced auditory responses induced by bimodal stimulation in all conditions (anesthetized vs awake). In contrast, modules act differently across all tested conditions. While modules had more cells with enhanced auditory responses induced by bimodal interaction in anesthetized animals, they had more cells with suppressed response in awake animals indicating that modules could be sensitive to the effect of anesthesia compared to matrix. We addressed this effect in the discussion of the revised manuscript [lines 521-553].

      Line 438: ...as early AS...

      Thank you for the reviewer’s comment. We gladly fixed that [line 512].  

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      My minor recommendations for the authors are as follows:

      (1) The text can be a bit difficult to follow in places. This is partly due to the convoluted nature of the results, but I suggest a careful read-through to look for opportunities to improve the prose. In particular, there is a tendency to use long sentences and long paragraphs. For example, the third paragraph of the introduction runs for almost fifty lines.

      Thank you for the reviewer’s comment and suggestion. We have fixed that.

      (2) This might be due to journal compression, but some of the bar graphs in the figures are difficult to read. For example, the individual data points, especially when filled with striped background colors get lost. Axes can become invisible, like the y-axis in 7L, and portions of bars, like in 7F, are not always rendered correctly. Error bars are sometimes hidden behind data points, as in 5C. Increasing line thickness and shifting individual data points away from error bars might help with this.

      Thank you for the reviewer’s comment and suggestion. We made all the data points with black color and filled circles to make the data points visible. We put all the data points behind the main columns, so they don’t block the error bars. We have fixed figures 7 and 5.

      (3) Throughout the manuscript, the authors use a higher SMI to indicate a preference of cells for auditory stimuli with "greater spectral... complexity" (e.g., lines 219 and 372). I find this interpretation a bit challenging since SMI compares a neuron's preference for tones over noise, and to me, tones seem like the least spectrally complex of all auditory stimuli. Perhaps some clarification of what the authors mean by this would help. For example, is the assumption that a neuron that prefers tones over noise is, either directly or indirectly, receiving input sculpted by inhibitory processes?

      Thank you for the reviewer’s comment. In general, higher SMI values indicate an increase in the preference of the cells to respond to pure tones than noise with no modulation (less spectral complexity). We will clarify this statement throughout the manuscript. However, the SMI value was not mentioned in lines 219 and 372. The statement mentioned in line 219 describes the revised figure 5C (old 5B), where more cells in matrix specifically respond to AM-noise compared to modules, which indicates the preference of the matrix to respond to sounds of greater spectral and temporal complexity. The statement in 372 in the discussion section refers to the finding in revised figures 5E and F (old 5D and E). In the revised figure 5E or old 5D, the data show that matrix has more cells responding to pure tones or noise with no modulation than modules, so matrix has a lower threshold to detect the spectral features of sound (revised figure 5E or old 5D). In the revised figure 5F or old 5E, the data show that matrix has more cells responding to AM-noise than modules, which indicates that matrix functions more to process the temporal features of sound. As explained above, all findings were related to the percentage of cells responding to specific sound stimuli and not the exact SMI values. We have revised the figures accordingly by removing the terms SMI and TMI from the figures, and we have clarified that in the text.

      (4) Lines 250-253: How does a decrease in SMI correspond to "an increase in pure tone responsiveness?" Doesn't a decrease suggest the opposite?

      Thank you for the reviewer’s comment, which we agree with. We do apologize for that. We have fixed this statement [lines 275-277] and any related findings accordingly.

      (5) Line 304: Add "imaged via microprism" or similar after "response profiles with the LC.".

      Thank you for the reviewer’s suggestion. We have fixed that. However, we changed the term “LC imaged via microprism” into “LC(microprism)” for simplicity as suggested by another reviewer [line 330].

      (6) Figure 5A and C: Both plots show that more neurons responded to AM-noise than tones, but it would be interesting to know how much the tone-responsive and AM-noise responsive populations overlapped. Were all tone-responsive neurons also responsive to AM-noise?

      Thank you for the reviewer’s comment. We have categorized the cells based on their response to pure tone only, AM-only, and both pure tone and AM-noise when each stimulus is presented individually. We have modified Figures 5A and C, and they are now Figures 5B and D.

      (7) Figure 5G: Missing negative sign before "0.5.".

      Thank you for the reviewer’s suggestion. We gladly have fixed that. However, old Figure 5G became a revised Figure 5H.  

      (8) Figure 7 legend, Line 1102: Missing period after "(C and E)".

      Thank you for the reviewer’s suggestion. We think that the period should be placed before (C and E) at the end of “respectively”. The parentheses refer to the statements after them. We gladly fixed that. [line 1394]

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This study reports that IT neurons have biased representations toward low spatial frequency

      (SF) and faster decoding of low SFs than high SFs. High SF-preferred neurons, and low SF-preferred neurons to a lesser degree, perform better category decoding than neurons with other profiles (U and inverted U shaped). SF coding also shows more sparseness than category coding in the earlier phase of the response and less sparseness in the later phase. The results are also contrasted with predictions of various DNN models.

      Strengths:

      The study addressed an important issue on the representations of SF information in a high-level visual area. Data are analyzed with LDA which can effectively reduce the dimensionality of neuronal responses and retain category information.

      We would like to express our sincere gratitude for your insightful and constructive comments which greatly contributed to the refinement of the manuscript. We appreciate the time and effort you dedicated to reviewing our work and providing suggestions. We have carefully considered each of your comments and addressed the suggested revisions accordingly.

      Weaknesses:

      The results are likely compromised by improper stimulus timing and unmatched spatial frequency spectrums of stimuli in different categories.

      The authors used a very brief stimulus duration (35ms), which would degrade the visual system's contrast sensitivity to medium and high SF information disproportionately (see Nachmias, JOSAA, 1967). Therefore, IT neurons in the study could have received more degraded medium and high SF inputs compared to low SF inputs, which may be at least partially responsible for higher firing rates to low SF R1 stimuli (Figure 1c) and poorer recall performance with median and high SF R3-R5 stimuli in LDA decoding. The issue may also to some degree explain the delayed onset of recall to higher SF stimuli (Figure 2a), preferred low SF with an earlier T1 onset (Figure 2b), lower firing rate to high SF during T1 (Figure 2c), somewhat increased firing rate to high SF during T2 (because weaker high SF inputs would lead to later onset, Figure 2d).

      We appreciate your concern regarding the course-to-fine nature of SF processing in the vision hierarchy and the short exposure time of our paradigm. According to your comment, we repeated the analysis of SF representation with 200ms exposure time as illustrated in Appendix 1 - Figure 4. Our recorded data contains the 200ms version of exposure time for all neurons in the main phase. As can be seen, the results are similar to what we found with 33 ms experiments.

      Next, we bring your attention to the following observations:

      (1) According to Figure 2d, the average firing rate of IT neurons for HSF could be higher than LSF in the late response phase. Therefore, the amount of HSF input received by the IT neurons is as much as LSF, however, its impact on the IT response is observable in the later phase of the response. Thus, the LSF preference is because of the temporal advantage of the LSF processing rather than contrast sensitivity.

      (2) According to Figure 3a, 6% of the neurons are HSF-preferred and their firing rate in HSF is comparable to the LSF firing rate in the LSF-preferred group. This analysis is carried out in the early phase of the response (70-170 ms). While most of the neurons prefer LSF, this observation shows that there is an HSF input that excites a small group of neurons. Furthermore, the highest separability index also belongs to the HSF-preferred profile in the early phase of the response which supports the impact of the HSF part of the input.

      (3) Similar LSF-preferred responses are also reported by Chen et al. (2018) (50ms for SC) and Zhang et al. (2023) (3.5 - 4 secs for V2 and V4) for longer duration times.

      Our results suggest that the LSF-preferred nature of the IT responses in terms of firing rate and recall, is not due to the weakness or lack of input source (or information) for HSF but rather to the processing nature of the SF in the vision hierarchy.

      To address this issue in the manuscript:

      Figure Appendix 1 - Figure 4 is added to the manuscript and shows the recall value and onset for R1-R5 with 200ms of exposure time.

      We added the following description to the discussion:

      “To rule out the degraded contrast sensitivity of the visual system to medium and high SF information because of the brief exposure time, we repeated the analysis with 200ms exposure time as illustrated in Appendix 1 - Figure 4 which indicates the same LSF-preferred results. Furthermore, according to Figure 2, the average firing rate of IT neurons for HSF could be higher than LSF in the late response phase. It indicates that the amount of HSF input received by the IT neurons in the later phase is as much as LSF, however, its impact on the IT response is observable in the later phase of the response. Thus, the LSF preference is because of the temporal advantage of the LSF processing rather than contrast sensitivity. Next, according to Figure 3(a), 6\% of the neurons are HSF-preferred and their firing rate in HSF is comparable to the LSF firing rate in the LSF-preferred group. This analysis is carried out in the early phase of the response (70-170ms). While most of the neurons prefer LSF, this observation shows that there is an HSF input that excites a small group of neurons. Additionally, the highest SI belongs to the HSF-preferred profile in the early phase of the response which supports the impact of the HSF part of the input. Similar LSF-preferred responses are also reported by Chen et. al. (2018) (50ms for SC) and Zhang et. al. (2023) (3.5 - 4 secs for V2 and V4). Therefore, our results show that the LSF-preferred nature of the IT responses in terms of firing rate and recall, is not due to the weakness or lack of input source (or information) for HSF but rather to the processing nature of the SF in the IT cortex.”

      Figure 3b shows greater face coding than object coding by high SF and to a lesser degree by low SF neurons. Only the inverted-U-shaped neurons displayed slightly better object coding than face coding. Overall the results give an impression that IT neurons are significantly more capable of coding faces than coding objects, which is inconsistent with the general understanding of the functions of IT neurons. The problem may lie with the selection of stimulus images (Figure 1b). To study SF-related category coding, the images in two categories need to have similar SF spectrums in the Fourier domain. Such efforts are not mentioned in the manuscript, and a look at the images in Figure 1b suggests that such efforts are likely not properly made. The ResNet18 decoding results in Figure 6C, in that IT neurons of different profiles show similar face and object coding, might be closer to reality.

      Because of the limited number of stimuli in our experiments, it is hard to discuss the category selectivity, which needs a higher number of stimuli. To overcome the limited number of stimuli in our experiment, we fixed 60% (nine out of 15 stimuli) while varying the remaining stimuli to reduce the selective bias. To check the coding capability of the IT neurons for face and non-face objects, we evaluated the recall of face vs. non-face classification in intact stimuli (similar to classifiers stated in the manuscript). Results show that at the population level, the recall value for objects is 90.45%, and for faces is 92.45%. However, the difference is not significant (p-value=0.44). On the other hand, we note that a large difference in the SI value does not translate directly to the classification accuracy, rather it illustrates the strength of representation.

      Regarding the SF spectrums, after matching the luminance and contrast of the images we matched the power of the images concerning SF and category. Powers are calculated using the sum of the absolute value of the Fourier transform of the image. Considering all stimuli, the ANOVA analysis shows that various SF bands have similar power (one-way ANOVA, p-value=0.24). Furthermore, comparing the power of faces and images in all SF bands (including intact) and both unscrambled and scrambled images indicates no significant difference between face and object (p-vale > 0.1). Therefore, the result of Figure 3b suggests that IT employs various SF bands for the recognition of various objects.

      Comparing the results of CNNs and IT shows that the CNNs do not capture the complexities of the IT cortex in terms of SF. One of the sources of this difference is because of the behavioral saliency of the face stimulus in the training of the primate visual system.

      To address this issue in the manuscript:

      The following description is added to the discussion:

      “… the decoding performance of category classification (face vs. non-face) in intact stimuli is 94.2%. The recall value for objects vs. scrambled is 90.45%, and for faces vs. scrambled is 92.45% (p-value=0.44), which indicates the high level of generalizability and validity characterizing our results.”

      The following description is added to the method section, SF filtering.

      “Finally, we equalized the stimulus power in all SF bands (intact, R-R5). The SF power among all conditions (all SF bands, face vs. non-face and unscrambled vs. scrambled) does not vary significantly (p-value > 0.1). SF power is calculated as the sum of the square value of the image coefficients in the Fourier domain.”

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This paper aimed to examine the spatial frequency selectivity of macaque inferotemporal (IT) neurons and its relation to category selectivity. The authors suggest in the present study that some IT neurons show a sensitivity for the spatial frequency of scrambled images. Their report suggests a shift in preferred spatial frequency during the response, from low to high spatial frequencies. This agrees with a coarse-to-fine processing strategy, which is in line with multiple studies in the early visual cortex. In addition, they report that the selectivity for faces and objects, relative to scrambled stimuli, depends on the spatial frequency tuning of the neurons.

      Strengths:

      Previous studies using human fMRI and psychophysics studied the contribution of different spatial frequency bands to object recognition, but as pointed out by the authors little is known about the spatial frequency selectivity of single IT neurons. This study addresses this gap and they show that at least some IT neurons show a sensitivity for spatial frequency and

      interestingly show a tendency for coarse-to-fine processing.

      We extend our sincere appreciation for your thoughtful and constructive feedback on our paper. We are grateful for the time and expertise you invested in reviewing our work. Your detailed suggestions have been instrumental in addressing several key aspects of the paper, contributing to its clarity and scholarly merit. We have carefully considered each of your comments and have made revisions accordingly.

      Weaknesses and requested clarifications:

      (1) It is unclear whether the effects described in this paper reflect a sensitivity to spatial frequency, i.e. in cycles/ deg (depends on the distance from the observer and changes when rescaling the image), or is a sensitivity to cycles /image, largely independent of image scale. How is it related to the well-documented size tolerance of IT neuron selectivity?

      Our stimuli are filtered using cycles/images and knowing the distance of the subject to the monitor, we can calculate the cycles/degrees. To the best of our knowledge, this is also the case for all other SF-related studies. To find the relation of observations to the cycles/image and degree/image, one should keep one of them fixed while changing the other, for example changing the subject's distance to the monitor will change the SF content in terms of cycle/degree. With our current data, we cannot discriminate this effect. To address this issue, we added the following description to the discussion. To address this issue, we added the following description to the discussion:

      “Finally, since our experiment maintains a fixed SF content in terms of both cycles per degree and cycles per image, further experiments are needed to discern whether our observations reflect sensitivity to cycles per degree or cycles per image.”

      (2) The authors' band-pass filtered phase scrambled images of faces and objects. The original images likely differed in their spatial frequency amplitude spectrum and thus it is unclear whether the differing bands contained the same power for the different scrambled images. If not, this could have contributed to the frequency sensitivity of the neurons.

      After equalizing the luminance and contrast of the images, we equilized their power concerning SF and category. The powers were calculated using the sum of the absolute values of the Fourier transform of the images. The results of the ANOVA analysis across all stimuli indicate that various SF bands exhibit similar power (one-way ANOVA, p-value = 0.24). Additionally, a comparison of power between faces and objects in all SF bands (including intact), for both unscrambled and scrambled images, reveals no significant differences (p-value > 0.1). To clarify this point, we have incorporated the following information into the Methods section.

      “Finally, we equalized the stimulus power in all SF bands (intact, R-R5). The SF power among all conditions (all SF bands, face vs. non-face and unscrambled vs. scrambled) does not vary significantly (ANOVA, p-value > 0.1).”

      (3) How strong were the responses to the phase-scrambled images? Phase-scrambled images are expected to be rather ineffective stimuli for IT neurons. How can one extrapolate the effect of the spatial frequency band observed for ineffective stimuli to that for more effective stimuli, like objects or (for some neurons) faces? A distribution should be provided, of the net responses (in spikes/s) to the scrambled stimuli, and this for the early and late windows.

      The sample neuron in Figure 1c is chosen to be a good indicator of the recorded neurons. In the early response phase, the average firing rate to scrambled stimuli is 26.3 spikes/s which is significantly higher than the response in -50 to 50ms which is 23.4. In comparison, the mean response to intact face stimuli is 30.5 spikes/s, while object stimuli elicit an average response of 28.8 spikes/s. Moving to the late phase, T2, the responses to scrambled, face, and object stimuli are 19.5, 19.4, and 22.4 spikes/s, respectively. Moreover, when the classification accuracy for SF exceeds chance levels, it indicates a significant impact of SF bands on the IT response. This raises a direct question about the explicit coding for SF bands in the IT cortex observed for ineffective stimuli and how it relates to complex and effective stimuli, such as faces. To show the strength of neuron responses to the SF bands in scrambled images, We added Appendix 1 - Figure 2 and also added Appendix 1 - Figure 1, according to comment 4, which shows the average and std of the responses to all SF bands. The following description is added to the results section.

      “Considering the strength of responses to scrambled stimuli, the average firing rate in response to scrambled stimuli is 26.3 Hz, which is significantly higher than the response observed between -50 and 50 ms, where it is 23.4 Hz (p-value=3x10-5). In comparison, the mean response to intact face stimuli is 30.5 Hz, while non-face stimuli elicit an average response of 28.8 Hz. The distribution of neuron responses for scrambled, face, and non-face in T1 is illustrated in Appendix 1 - Figure 2.

      […]

      Moreover, the average firing rates of scrambled, face, and non-face stimuli are 19.5 Hz, 19.4 Hz, and 22.4 Hz, respectively. The distribution of neuron responses is illustrated in Appendix 1 Figure 2.”

      (4) The strength of the spatial frequency selectivity is unclear from the presented data. The authors provide the result of a classification analysis, but this is in normalized units so that the reader does not know the classification score in percent correct. Unnormalized data should be provided. Also, it would be informative to provide a summary plot of the spatial frequency selectivity in spikes/s, e.g. by ranking the spatial frequency bands for each neuron based on half of the trials and then plotting the average responses for the obtained ranks for the other half of the trials. Thus, the reader can appreciate the strength of the spatial frequency selectivity, considering trial-to-trial variability. Also, a plot should be provided of the mean response to the stimuli for the two analysis windows of Figure 2c and 2d in spikes/s so one can appreciate the mean response strengths and effect size (see above).

      The normalization of the classification result is just obtained by subtracting the chance level, which is 0.2, from the whole values. Therefore the values could still be interpreted in percent as we did in the results section. To make this clear, we removed the “a.u.” from the figure and we added the following description to the results section.

      “The accuracy value is normalized by subtracting the chance level (0.2).”

      Regarding the selectivity of the neuron, as suggested by your comment, we added a new figure in the appendix section, Appendix 1 - figure 2. This figure shows the strength of SF selectivity, considering trial-to-trial variability. The following description is added to the results section:

      “The strength of SF selectivity, considering the trial-to-trial variability is provided in Appendix 1 Figure 2, by ranking the SF bands for each neuron based on half of the trials and then plotting the average responses for the obtained ranks for the other half of the trials.”

      The firing rates of Figures 2c and 2d are normalized for better illustration since the variation in firing rates is high across neurons, as can be observed in Figure Appendix 1 - Figure 1. Since we seek trends in the response, the absolute values are not important (since the baseline firing rates of neurons are different), but the values relative to the baseline firing rate determine the trend. To address the mean response and the strength of the SF response, the following description is added to the results section.

      “Considering the strength of responses to scrambled stimuli, the average firing rate in response to scrambled stimuli is 26.3 Hz, which is significantly higher than the response observed between -50 and 50 ms, where it is 23.4 Hz (p-value=3x10-5). In comparison, the mean response to intact face stimuli is 30.5 Hz, while non-face stimuli elicit an average response of 28.8 Hz. The distribution of neuron responses for scrambled, face, and non-face in T1 is illustrated in Appendix 1 - Figure 2.

      […]

      Moreover, the average firing rates of scrambled, face, and non-face stimuli are 19.5 Hz, 19.4

      Hz, and 22.4 Hz, respectively. The distribution of neuron responses is illustrated in Appendix 1 Figure 2.”

      Furthermore, we added a figure, Appendix 1 - Figure 3, to illustrate the strength of SF selectivity in our profiles. The following is added to the results section:

      “To check the robustness of the profiles, considering the trial-to-trial variability, the strength of SF selectivity in each profile is provided in Appendix 1 - Figure 3, by forming the profile of each neuron based on half of the trials and then plotting the average SF responses with the other

      half of the trials.”

      (5) It is unclear why such brief stimulus durations were employed. Will the results be similar, in particular the preference for low spatial frequencies, for longer stimulus durations that are more similar to those encountered during natural vision?

      Please refer to the first comment of Reviewer 1.

      (6) The authors report that the spatial frequency band classification accuracy for the population of neurons is not much higher than that of the best neuron (line 151). How does this relate to the SNC analysis, which appears to suggest that many neurons contribute to the spatial frequency selectivity of the population in a non-redundant fashion? Also, the outcome of the analyses should be provided (such as SNC and decoding (e.g. Figure 1D)) in the original units instead of undefined arbitrary units.

      The population accuracy is approximately 5% higher than the best neuron. However, we have no reference to compare the effect size (the value is roughly similar for face vs object while the chance levels are different). However, as stated in Methods, SNC is calculated for two label modes (LSF and HSF) and it can not be directly compared to the best neuron accuracy. Regarding the unit of SNC, it can be interpreted directly to percent by multiplying by a factor of 100. We removed the “a.u.” to prevent misunderstanding and modified the results section for clearance.

      “… SNC score for SF (two labels, LSF (R1 and R2) vs. HSF (R4 and R5)) and category … (average SNC for SF=0.51\%±0.02 and category=0.1\%±0.04 …”

      (7) To me, the results of the analyses of Figure 3c,d, and Figure 4 appear to disagree. The latter figure shows no correlation between category and spatial frequency classification accuracies while Figure 3c,d shows the opposite.

      In Figure 3c,d, following what we observed in Figure 3a,b about the category coding capabilities in the population of neurons based on the profile of the single neurons, we tested a similar idea if the coding capability of single neurons in SF/category could predict the coding capability of population neurons in terms of category/SF. Therefore, both analyses investigate a relation between a characteristic of single neurons and the coding capability of a population of similar neurons. On the other hand, in Figure 4, the idea is to check the characteristics of the coding mechanisms behind SF and category coding. In Figure 4a, we check if there exists any relation between category and SF coding capability within a single neuron activity without the impact of other neurons, to investigate the idea that SF coding may be a byproduct of an object recognition mechanism. In Figure 4b, we investigated the contribution of all neurons in population decision, again to check whether the mechanisms behind the SF and category coding are the same or not. This analysis shows how individual neurons contribute to SF or category coding at the population level. Therefore, the experiments in Figures 3 and 4 are different in the analysis method and what they were designed to investigate and we cannot directly compare the results.

      (8) If I understand correctly, the "main" test included scrambled versions of each of the "responsive" images selected based on the preceding test. Each stimulus was presented 15 times (once in each of the 15 blocks). The LDA classifier was trained to predict the 5 spatial frequency band labels and they used 70% of the trials to train the classifier. Were the trained and tested trials stratified with respect to the different scrambled images? Also, LDA assumes a normal distribution. Was this the case, especially because of the mixture of repetitions of the same scrambled stimulus and different scrambled stimuli?

      In response to your inquiry regarding the stratification of trials, both the training and testing data were representative of the entire spectrum of scrambled images used in our experiment. To address your concern about the assumption of a normal distribution, especially given the mixture of repetitions of the same scrambled stimulus and different stimuli, our analysis of firing rates reveals a slightly left-skewed normal distribution. While there is a deviation from a perfectly normal distribution, we are confident that this skewness does not compromise the robustness of the LDA classifier.

      (9) The LDA classifiers for spatial frequency band (5 labels) and category (2 labels) have different chance and performance levels. Was this taken into account when comparing the SNC between these two classifiers? Details and SNC values should be provided in the original (percent difference) instead of arbitrary units in Figure 5a. Without such details, the results are impossible to evaluate.

      For both SNC and CMI calculations in SF, we considered two labels of HSF (R4 and R5) and LSF (R1 and R2). This was mentioned in the Methods section, after equation (5). According to your comment, to make it clear in the results section, we also added this description to the results section.

      “… illustrates the SNC score for SF (two labels, LSF (R1 and R2) vs. HSF (R4 and R5)) and category (face vs. non-face) … conditioned on the label, SF (LSF (R1 and R2) vs. HSF (R4 and R5)) or category, to assess the information.”

      The value of SNC can also be directly converted to the percent by a factor of 100. To make it clear, we removed “a.u.” from the y-axis.

      (10) Recording locations should be described in IT, since the latter is a large region. Did their recordings include the STS? A/P and M/L coordinate ranges of recorded neurons?

      We appreciate your suggestion for the recording location. Nevertheless, given the complexities associated with neurophysiological recordings and the limitations imposed by our methodologies, we face challenges in precisely localizing every unit if they are located in STS or not. To address your comment, We added Appendix 1 - Figure 5 which shows the SF and category coding capability of neurons along their recorded locations.

      (11) The authors should show in Supplementary Figures the main data for each of the two animals, to ensure the reader that both monkeys showed similar trends.

      We added Appendix 2 which shows the consistency of the main results in the two monkeys.

      (12) The authors found that the deep nets encoded better the spatial frequency bands than the IT units. However, IT units have trial-to-trial response variability and CNN units do not. Did they consider this when comparing IT and CNN classification performance? Also, the number of features differs between IT and CNN units. To me, comparing IT and CNN classification performances is like comparing apples and oranges.

      Deep convolutional neural networks are currently considered the state-of-the-art models of the primate visual pathway. However, as you mentioned and based on our results, they do not yet capture various complexities of the visual ventral stream. Yet studying the similarities and differences between CNN and brain regions, such as the IT cortex, is an active area of research, such as:

      a. Kubilius, Jonas, et al. "Brain-like object recognition with high-performing shallow recurrent ANNs." Advances in neural information processing systems 32 (2019).

      b. Xu, Yaoda, and Maryam Vaziri-Pashkam. "Limits to visual representational correspondence between convolutional neural networks and the human brain." Nature Communications, 12.1 (2021).

      c. Jacob, Georgin, et al. "Qualitative similarities and differences in visual object representations between brains and deep networks." Nature Communications, 12.1 (2021).

      Therefore, we believe comparing IT and CNN, despite all of the differences in terms of their characteristics, can help both fields grow faster, especially in introducing brain-inspired networks.

      (13) The authors should define the separability index in their paper. Since it is the main index to show a relationship between category and spatial frequency tuning, it should be described in detail. Also, results should be provided in the original units instead of undefined arbitrary units. The tuning profiles in Figure 3A should be in spikes/s. Also, it was unclear to me whether the classification of the neurons into the different tuning profiles was based on an ANOVA assessing per neuron whether the effect of the spatial frequency band was significant (as should be done).

      Based on your comment, we added the description of the separability index to the methods section. However, since the separability index is defined as the division of two dispersion matrices, it has no units by nature. The tuning profiles in Figure 3a are normalized for better illustration since the variation in firing rates is high. Since we seek trends in the response, the absolute values are not important. Regarding the SF profile formation, to better present the SF profile assignment, we updated the method section. Furthermore, The strength of responses for scrambled stimuli can be observed in Appendix 1 - Figures 1 and 2.

      (14) As mentioned above, the separability analysis is the main one suggesting an association between category and spatial frequency tuning. However, they compute the separability of each category with respect to the scrambled images. Since faces are a rather homogeneous category I expect that IT neurons have on average a higher separability index for faces than for the more heterogeneous category of objects, at least for neurons responsive to faces and/or objects. The higher separability for faces of the two low- and high-pass spatial frequency neurons could reflect stronger overall responses for these two classes of neurons. Was this the case? This is a critical analysis since it is essential to assess whether it is category versus responsiveness that is associated with the spatial frequency tuning. Also, I do not believe that one can make a strong claim about category selectivity when only 6 faces and 3 objects (and 6 other, variable stimuli; 15 stimuli in total) are employed to assess the responses for these categories (see next main comment). This and the above control analysis can affect the main conclusion and title of the paper.

      We appreciate your concern regarding category selectivity or responsiveness of the SF profiles. First, we note that we used SI since it overcomes the limitations of the accuracy and recall metrics as they are discrete and can be saturated. Using SI, we cannot directly calculate face vs object with SI, since this index only reports one value for the whole discrimination task. Therefore, we have to calculate the SI for face/object vs scrambled to obtain a value per category. However, as you suggested, it raises the question of whether we assess how well the neural responses distinguish between actual images (faces or objects) and their scrambled versions or if we just assess the responsiveness. Based on Figure 3b, since we have face-selective (LSF and HSF preferred profiles), object-selective (inverse U), and the U profile, where SI is the same for both face and object, we believe the SF profile is associated with the category selectivity, otherwise we would have the same face/object recall in all profiles, as we have in the U shape profile.

      To analyze this issue further, we calculated the number of face/object selective neurons in 70-170ms. We found 43 face-selective neurons and 36 object-selective neurons (FDR corrected p-value < 0.05). Therefore, the number of face-selective and object-selective neurons is similar. Next, we check the selectivity of the neurons within each profile. Number of face/object selective neurons is LP=13/3, HP=6/2, IU=3/9, U=14/13, and the remaining belong to the NP group. Results show higher face-selective neurons in LP and HP and a higher number of object-selective neurons in the IU class. The U class contains roughly the same number of face and object-selective neurons. This observation supports the relationship between category selectivity and profiles.

      Next, we examined the average neuron response to the face and object in each profile. The difference between the firing rate of the face and object in none of the profiles was significant (Ranksum with a significance level of 0.05). However, the rates are as follows. The average firing rate (spikes/s) of face/object is LP=36.72/28.77, HP=28.55/25.52, IU=21.55/27.25, U=38.48/36.28. While the differences are not significant, they support the relationship between profiles and categories instead of responsiveness.

      The following description is added to the results section to cover this point of view.

      “To assess whether the SF profiles distinguish category selectivity or merely evaluate the neuron's responsiveness, we quantified the number of face/non-face selective neurons in the 70-170ms time window. Our analysis shows a total of 43 face-selective neurons and 36 non-face-selective neurons (FDR-corrected p-value < 0.05). The results indicate a higher proportion of face-selective neurons in LP and HP, while a greater number of non-face-selective neurons is observed in the IU category (number of face/non-face selective neurons: LP=13/3, HP=6/2, IU=3/9). The U category exhibits a roughly equal distribution of face and non-face-selective neurons (U=14/13). This finding reinforces the connection between category selectivity and the identified profiles. We then analyzed the average neuron response to faces and non-faces within each profile. The difference between the firing rates for faces and non-faces in none of the profiles is significant (face/non-face average firing rate (Hz): LP=36.72/28.77, HP=28.55/25.52, IU=21.55/27.25, U=38.48/36.28, Ranksum with significance level of 0.05). Although the observed differences are not statistically significant, they provide support for the association between profiles and categories rather than mere responsiveness.”

      About the low number of stimuli, please check the next comment.

      (15) For the category decoding, the authors employed intact, unscrambled stimuli. Were these from the main test? If yes, then I am concerned that this represents a too small number of stimuli to assess category selectivity. Only 9 fixed + 6 variable stimuli = 15 were in the main test. How many faces/ objects on average? Was the number of stimuli per category equated for the classification? When possible use the data of the preceding selectivity test which has many more stimuli to compute the category selectivity.

      We used only the main phase recorded data, which contains 15 images in each session. Each image results in 12 stimuli (intact, R1-R5, and phase-scrambled version). Thus, there exists a total of 180 unique stimuli in each session. Increasing the number of images would have increased the recording time. We compensated for this limitation by increasing the diversity of images in each session by picking the most responsive ones from the selectivity phase. On average, 7.54 of the stimuli were face in each session. We added this information to the Methods section. Furthermore, as mentioned in the discussion, for each classification run, the number of samples per category is equalized. We note that we cannot use the selectivity data for analysis, since the SF-related stimuli are filtered in different bands.

      Recommendations For The Authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I suggest that the authors double-check their results by performing control experiments with longer stimulus duration and SF-spectrum-matched face and object stimuli.

      Thanks for your suggestion, according to your comment, we added Appendix 1 - Figure 3.

      In addition, I had a very difficult time understanding the differences between Figure 3c and Figure 4a. Please rewrite the descriptions to clarify.

      Thanks for your suggestion, we tried to revise the description of these two figures. The following description is added to the results section for Figure 3c.

      “Next, to examine the relation between the SF (category) coding capacity of the single neurons and the category (SF) coding capability of the population level, we calculated the correlation between coding performance at the population level and the coding performance of single neurons within that population (Figure 3 c and d). In other words, we investigated the relation between single and population levels of coding capabilities between SF and category. The SF (or category) coding performance of a sub-population of 20 neurons that have roughly the same single-level coding capability of the category (or SF) is examined.”

      Lines 147-148: The text states that 'The maximum accuracy of a single neuron was 19.08% higher than the chance level'. However, in Figure 4, the decoding accuracies of individual neurons for category and SF range were between 49%-90% and 20%-40%, respectively.

      Please explain the discrepancies.

      The first number is reported according to chance level which is 20%, thus the unnormalized number is 39% which is consistent with the SF accuracy in Figure 4. We added the following description to prevent any misunderstanding.

      “… was 19.08\% higher than the chance level (unnormalized accuracy is 49.08\%, neuron \#193, M2).”

      Lines 264-265: Should 'the alternative for R3 and R4' be 'the alternative for R4 and R5'?

      Thanks for your attention, it's “R4 and R5”. We corrected that mistake.

      Lines 551-562: The labels for SF classification are R1-R5. Is it a binary or a multi-classification task?

      It’s a multi-label classification. We made it clear in the text.

      “… labels were SF bands (R1, R2, ..., R5, multi-label classifier).”

      Figure 4b: Neurons in SF/category decoding exhibit both positive and negative weights. However, in the analysis of sparse neuron weights in Equation 6, only the magnitude of the weights is considered. Is the sign of weight considered too?

      We used the absolute value of the neuron weight to calculate sparseness. We also corrected Equation 6.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Line 52: what do the authors mean by coordinate processing in object recognition?

      To avoid any potential misunderstanding, we used the exact phrase in Saneyoshi and Michimata (2015). It is in fact, coordinate relations processing. Coordinate relations specify the metric information of the relative locations of objects.

      (2) About half of the Introduction is a summary of the Results. This can be shortened.

      Thanks for your suggestion.

      (3) Line 134: Peristimulus time histogram instead of Prestimulus time histogram.

      Thanks for your attention. We corrected that.

      (4) Line 162: the authors state that R1 is decoded faster than R5, but the reported statistic is only for R1 versus R2.

      It was a typo, the p-value is only reported for R1 and R5.

      (5) Line 576: which test was used for the asses the statistical significance?

      The test is Wilcoxon signed-rank. We added it to the text.

      (6) How can one present a 35 ms long stimulus with a 60 Hz frame rate (the stimuli were presented on a 60Hz monitor (line 470))? Please correct.

      Thanks for your attention. We corrected that. The time of stimulus presentation is 33ms and the monitor rate is 120Hz.

    1. Note: This response was posted by the corresponding author to Review Commons. The content has not been altered except for formatting.

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      Reply to the reviewers

      Reviewer #1 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      #1) Summary: The transport of effector proteins across membranes from the producing bacterium into a target cell is at the core of bacterial secretion systems. How an additional layer in form of a capsule affects effector export and the susceptibility towards effector import is not fully understood. Here, Flaugnatti and colleagues combined bacterial genetics with phenotypic assays and electron microscopy to demonstrate a dual role of a bacterial capsule in preventing T6SS-mediated effector export and promoting protection from effector import by another bacterium's T6SS. The wide variety of methods used, complementation of the mutants, and validation of the findings across strains strengthen the author's conclusions. Although the main conclusions seem straight forward, the authors unravel the unexpected complexity underlying these phenotypes with strong mechanistic work. In brief, a capsule-deficient mutant (∆itra) is shown to assemble its T6SS similar to the WT, yet secretes more Hcp than the WT and is better in T6SS-mediated killing of other bacteria. A capsule-overproducing mutant (∆bfmS) shows both, a partial deficiency in T6SS assembly and an additional reduction in exported Hcp, and is worse in T6SS-mediated killing than the WT. A mutant with a capsule similar to WT and deficient in cell sensing (∆tslA) forms the least T6SS apparatuses and is yet better in T6SS-mediated killing than the overcapsulated mutant. Together, these data show an effect of the capsule on (i) T6SS apparatus assembly, (ii) effector export, (iii) effector import, and (iv) the need for clearance of accumulating non-secreted Hcp by ClpXP. The work on a clinical isolate of Acinetobacter tumefaciens and the data on an impaired T6SS activity on other cells by antibiotic-induced capsulation is a strong demonstration of the work's clinical relevance in addition to the findings' conceptual novelty.

      • In my view, the manuscript is outstanding with very high quality of experimental data, very well written text and very clear presentation of the data in figures. A few minor comments and suggestions below that I think would strengthen the manuscript.*

      __ Authors’ reply #1: __We thank the reviewer for their enthusiasm.

      • *

      Major comment:

      #2) OPTIONAL: Fig. 4c/l. 320: Having an indirect effect of an antibiotic on T6SS activity by antibiotic-induced capsule formation is very intriguing and contributes to the clinical relevance of the overall findings. When I saw the data in Fig. 4c, the graph instantaneously reminded me of the panel in Fig. 2a, where a similar phenotype is observed by changing the predator:prey ratio in the absence of any antibiotic. The authors themselves comment on the possibility of antibiotic-induced, reduced predator growth (and thereby a change in predator:prey ratio) as a one factor impacting the phenotype here. I am wondering if this data could be strengthened or better disentangled to test more precisely if it is the antibiotic induced capsule formation per se that affects T6SS-mediated killing by A. baumanii in the presence of antibiotics. Would it help to take the bfmS mutant along as a control for direct comparison to see if antibiotic-induced capsule formation of the WT to similar levels of the mutant results in the same killing phenotype? Would it help to test for T6SS-mediated killing in the presence and absence of antibiotics at multiple predator:prey ratios? Could the effect of the antibiotic on A. baumanii growth be measured and considered when choosing the ratio at which the bacteria are mixed?

      __ Authors’ reply #2: __The point raised by the reviewer is very important. As we have stated in the manuscript, the capsule-induced production using antibiotics impacts the growth of A. baumannii and could therefore change the predator-prey ratio, potentially affecting the observed phenotype. However, the antibiotic is expected to equally impact the non-encapsulated ΔitrA strain, yet this strain maintains very strong T6SS killing activity in the presence of chloramphenicol. Thus, we do not believe the predator-prey ratio is causing the observed effect. To address this point more directly, we nonetheless propose to: i) repeat the experiments with different predator-prey ratios (1:1, 2:1, and 5:1), and ii) include a bfmS mutant as a control.

      Minor comments:

      #3) Figure 1D, l. 155, I might have missed this, do the authors happen to have the numbers of E. cloacae as well? This would strengthen the claim on A. baumannii survival because of E. cloacae is being killed.

      __ Authors’ reply #3: __The reviewer is correct; we did not include the survival of E. cloacae in the initial manuscript due to technical reasons (counter-selection of E. cloacae). However, we propose to repeat the experiment using an E. cloacae strain carrying a plasmid conferring kanamycin resistance. This will allow us to counter-select E. cloacae after contact with the A. baumannii predator to determine if E. cloacae is killed by A. baumannii in a T6SS-dependent manner.


      #4) Figure 2, I suggest to write out the species name of the prey in the box with the ratio. With E. cloacae being referred to in the previous figure and starting with similar letters than E. coli, I wasn't sure at first sight what E. c. refers to.

      __ Authors’ reply #4: __We appreciate the comment and will revise the figure as suggested.

      #5) use of the term "T6SS activity" throughout the manuscript (e.g. l. 182, l. 187). I leave this up to the authors. To me, it seems like an umbrella term for the initial observation and I see that such a term can be very handy for the writing. I just would like to mention that the use of the term was not always intuitive to me and sometimes even a bit misleading. For example, l. 182 refers to "increased T6SS activity". As a reader, I only know about 'T6SS activity on other cells' or 'a T6SS-mediated effect on other cells' at this point. T6SS apparatus assembly/firing activity is tested for specifically later and it turns out to differ between mutants. By the time the term is used in the discussion, it captures multiple nuanced phenotypes described by then. The more precise definition of the term in l. 200 helped to capture what exactly is meant by the authors.

      __ Authors’ reply #5: __We propose rephrasing the sentences to include the term "T6SS-secretion activity" when referring to Hcp secretion assays and "T6SS-mediated killing activity" when referring to killing experiments.

      __#6) __l. 198-199 "Collectively, our findings indicate that CPS does not hinder the secretion process of the T6SS or the consequent elimination of competing cells". I might be missing something, I cannot entirely follow this sentence. Didn't the authors just show that the CPS does hinder T6SS-mediated elimination of competing cells in panel 2A and less secreted Hcp in the encapsulated WT compared to the non-encapsulated mutant in panel 2B?

      __ Authors’ reply #6:__ We thank the reviewer for this comment. We realize that the sentence wasn’t well phrased, resulting in confusion. What we meant was that the T6SS is functional regarding its T6SS-mediated killing and secretion in the WT strain, while we also showed that the non-capsulated strain kills and secretes more T6SS material in the supernatant. Thus, there seems to be a balance between capsule production and T6SS activity in the WT. We will revise the sentence to better reflect this meaning.

      #7) l. 224, typo, "in"

      __ Authors’ reply #7:__ We will correct this typo. Thank you.

      • *

      #8) Two connected comments: l. 338, Just a thought, I am wondering about the title of the section. After reading it a second time, I think it is technically correct. When reading it first, I was a bit confused when getting to the data because apparatus assmebly is impaired in the capsule-overproducing strain and although "preserved", doesn't the data indicate that there is less T6SS assembly in the bfmS mutant and that this might be because of less cell sensing and isn't this a main point that there is a difference in apparatus assembly in the capsule overproducing strain compared to WT (other than no difference in apparatus assembly in the strain without capsule)? To me it seems not fully acknowledged as a finding in the interpretation of the data that less cells of the bfmS mutant have a T6SS apparatus. Isn't that interesting? A title along the lines of "Capsule-overproducing strain has preserved sensory function and assembles less T6SS apparatuses" would have been more intuitive for me. l. 352, In case I didn't miss a reference to this data earlier in the manuscript, I am wondering if it would be worth mentioning the finding on the reduced apparatus assembly of the bfmS mutant earlier, together with Figure 3 already. At least a sentence that mentions already that there is more coming later. When I got to this line in the manuscript and read the findings on the apparatus assembly, I first needed to go back to figure 3 and look at the data there again in light of this finding. It is mentioned here on the side but I think very important for the interpretation of the phenotypic data of the bfmS mutant shown earlier, isn't it? The tslA mutant is used beautifully here.

      __ Authors’ reply #8:__ We thank the reviewer for the suggestion and the kind comment about the beautiful usage of the tslA mutant. We will modify the title of the corresponding paragraph as suggested to make it more intuitive.

              Regarding the comment about mentioning the T6SS apparatus assembly defect in the *bfmS* mutant earlier, we respectfully disagree. While we agree that this point is important and can partially explain the difference in killing activity, we believe that showing it together with the *tslA* mutant (Figure 5) makes more sense and is easier for the reader to understand.
      

      #9) Discussion: optional comment. On the one hand, I like the concise discussion. On the other hand, I see more potential here for bringing it all together (potentially at the expense of shortening some of the introduction). I think the subtleties of the findings are complex. For example, I could envision a graphical summary with a working model on all the effects of a capsule on the T6SS and its potential clinical relevance making the study accessible to even more readers.

      __ Authors’ reply #9: __In the revised manuscript, we will include a graphical summary/model.


      Significance

      #10) General assessment: I consider the story very strong in terms of novelty, experimental approaches used, quality of the data, quality of the writing and figures of the manuscript. In my view, the aspects that could be improved are optional/minor and concern only one figure and some phrasing.

      • Advance: I see major advance in the findings (i, mechanistic) on the mechanism of how the capsule interferes with T6SS, (ii, fundamental) on the discovery of ClpXP degrading Hcp, and (iii, clinical) on the meaning of antibiotic treatment for the T6SS of this clinically relevant and often multi-drug resistant bacterial species, which strongly complements existing work on the T6SS and antibiotics in A. baumanii (e.g. of the Feldman group). As the authors write themselves, the starting points of the study of a capsule protecting from a T6SS and the effect of a T6SS on other cells being negatively impacted by a capsule were known, although not studied in one species and not understood mechanistically.*

      • Audience: I see the result of interest to a broad audience in the fields of bacteria-bacteria interactions, Acinetobacter baumanii, type VI secretion, antimicrobial resistance, bacterial capsules.*

      __ Authors’ reply #10: __We once again thank the reviewer and highly appreciate their positive and constructive feedback on our work. We hope the reviewer will be satisfied with the revised version of our manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      #11) In the manuscript by Flaugnatti et al., the authors provide clear evidence of the interplay between capsule outer coat production and the Type VI secretion system (T6SS) in Acinetobacter baumannii. The authors demonstrate that the presence of the capsule or the activity of the T6SS enhances survival against attacking bacteria. However, they also show that in their model bacterium, the (over)production of the capsule likely hinders T6SS dynamics, thereby reducing overall killing efficiency. Additionally, they reveal that the amount of the T6SS component Hcp is regulated in cells that can no longer assemble and/or secrete via the T6SS, presumably by the ClpXP protease. Overall, the experiments are well designed, and most conclusions are supported by the data and appropriate controls. I have however some suggestions that could further strengthen the manuscript prior to publication.

      __ Authors’ reply #11: __We are grateful for the reviewer’s enthusiasm and will implement their comments and suggestions in the revised version of the manuscript.


      Major comments:

      #12) Line 164. The authors use E. coli as prey to test the T6SS activity of A. baumannii. Why not directly use the E. cloacae strain (with or without T6SS) for this purpose? This would provide direct evidence that A. baumannii uses its T6SS to kill E. cloacae, thus confirming the authors conclusions in this section.

      __ Authors’ reply #12: __We thank the reviewer for this comment. We used E. coli to assess the functionality of the T6SS in different strains of A. baumannii, as it is commonly done in the T6SS field. However, as suggested by reviewer 1 (see comment #3) and in response to this query, we will also provide survival data of E. cloacae in the revised manuscript using a plasmid-carrying E. cloacae derivative that allows direct selection.

      #13) In Figure 2, the authors show that a non-capsulated strain kills more effectively and secretes more than a WT, but has a similar number of T6SS. They suggest in their conclusion that "the observed increase in T6SS activity in the non-capsulated strain suggests a compensatory mechanism for the absence of the protective capsule layer." This conclusion implies the presence of an "active" regulatory mechanism that would increase the number of successful T6SS firing events, which has not been demonstrated. Could it not simply be that the capsule blocks some shots that cannot penetrate and are therefore ineffective? This hypothesis is mentioned in lines 204-208. The authors should clarify the conclusion of this section. Given the challenge this may pose in A. baumannii, I suggest that the authors quantify the assembly/firing dynamics of the T6SS under WT and ΔitrA conditions. This would help distinguish between the two hypotheses explaining better firing in non-capsulated cells: i.e., if the number of assembled T6SS is the same in both strains (Fig 2C & 2D), do non-capsulated cells assemble/fire faster, indicating an adaptation in regulation, or do we observe the same dynamics, suggesting a simple physical barrier blocking the passage of certain T6SS firing events?

      __ Authors’ reply #13:__ We realize that the sentence, and more specifically the word "compensatory," might have been misleading and thank the reviewer for bringing this to our attention. What we meant to convey is that there is a balance between capsule production and T6SS activity; if disturbed, the balance shifts in one direction or the other. Specifically, there is more protection through the production of a thicker capsule (e.g., in the ∆bfmSmutant or under sub-MIC conditions of antibiotics, regulated by the Bfm system, as mentioned in the text) or more T6SS activity when less capsule is present (e.g., in the ΔitrA mutant, which we propose is caused by the lack of the steric hindrance). We will rephrase this sentence in the revised manuscript to better convey this message.

              Regarding the quantification of T6SS dynamic assembly/firing events between the capsulated (WT) and non-capsulated (ΔitrA) strains, we do not think this is required for this study, as the amount of secreted Hcp reflects the overall activity of the system. Importantly, we also do not have the technical means to quantify assembly/firing rates under Biosafety 2 conditions, as this requires specialized microscopes with very fast acquisition options (see, for instance, Basler, Pilhofer *et al.*, 2012, *Nature*). Indeed, very few labs in the T6SS field have been able to measure such rates.
      

      #14) Line 428-429. It is mentioned that the deletion of lon does not have a notable effect. However, I observe that the absence of Lon alone causes a more rapid degradation of Hcp in the cells compared to the WT strain (Fig 7B). How do the authors explain that the absence of this protease (whether under conditions of Hcp accumulation or not) increases the degradation of this protein in the cell? This explanation should be included in the manuscript.

      __ Authors’ reply #14: __That’s a fair point. We didn’t address this point further, as the deletion of lon didn’t resolve the issue of why Hcp is degraded. In fact, the opposite seems to be the case, as there is less Hcp in the ∆lon strain compared to the WT. While this observation is not directly relevant to the question of why Hcp is degraded late during growth in secretion-impaired strains, we will properly mention it in the revised manuscript.

              Please also note that a strong growth defect of a Δ*lon*Δ*clpXP* double mutant impaired further investigation in this direction.
      
      • *

      Minor comments:

      #15) Throughout the manuscript, the authors use the term "predator" to refer to A. baumannii. Predation is a specific phenomenon that involves killing for nourishment. To my knowledge, the T6SS has never been shown to be a predation weapon but rather a weapon for interbacterial competition, which is a different concept. If this has not been demonstrated in A. baumannii, the authors should replace the term "predator" with "attacker" (or an equivalent term) to clarify the context.

      __ Authors’ reply #15: __We thank the reviewer for this comment. The term “predator,” as highlighted by the reviewer, typically implies killing for nourishment/cellular products. In the context of T6SS, it facilitates the killing of competitors, releasing DNA into the environment that can subsequently be acquired through natural competence for transformation, as observed in species like Vibrio cholerae (our work by Borgeaud et al., 2015, Science) or other Acinetobacter species such as Acinetobacter baylyi (Ringel et al., 2017, Cell Rep.; Cooper et al., 2017, eLife). The acquisition of DNA reflects the killing for cellular products of the prey. As most A. baumannii strains are also naturally competent, this justifies the usage of the predator and prey nomenclature.

              Apart from this fact, it seems to be a matter of nomenclature, with many papers in the field using one term or the other. Yet, ultimately, this doesn’t change any of the scientific findings. Therefore, to satisfy the reviewer, we will change “predator” to “attacker” throughout the revised manuscript.
      

      #16) Line 274. Since the authors stated that in the Wzc mutant, the capsule is "predominantly found in the supernatant and only loosely attached to the cell," this result is not unexpected. This finding is also consistent with the previous results from Fig. 3A & B, which show sensitivity to complement-mediated killing and the weak amount of (ab)normal CPS produced in that strain, further confirmed by Fig. 3E.

      __ Authors’ reply #16__: We fully agree with the reviewer’s suggestion and will remove the statement.

      #17) Line 299. The authors speculate that "... T6SS may deploy through gaps akin to arrow-slits in the capsule's mesh...". However, this is very unlikely since a WT strain kills (Fig. 3C) and secretes (Fig. 2B & 3D) less effectively than the itrA mutant, suggesting that the T6SS is not assembled in the "right places" devoid of CPS; otherwise, we would expect similar T6SS activity. Based on the results in Fig. 2 (and my earlier comment), this implies that A. baumannii assembles its T6SS randomly, and in the presence of the capsule, its shots would need to be in the right place to penetrate the envelope and reach the target. Could the authors comment on this point and provide a model figure to better visualize the interplay between the capsule and T6SS under the three major conditions: WT, non-capsulated, and capsule overproduction?

      __ Authors’ reply #17: __We thank the reviewer and agree with their comment. We discussed the hypothesis of T6SS deployment through gaps, drawing a parallel to what was proposed for biofilm and T6SS in V. cholerae(Toska et al., 2018, PNAS). However, as mentioned earlier, we believe that the effect of the capsule on T6SS activity is primarily due to steric hindrance, which increases the distance between the T6SS apparatus and the prey cell. To clarify our findings further, we will include a model summarizing our results, as requested by reviewer 1 (see comment #9).


      __ #18)__ In Fig. 5A, the microscopy panels should be adjusted to the same dynamic range as the WT (which represents a true signal), which does not appear to be the case for the tlsA mutant panel for instance. The image gives the impression of a large amount of free TssB-msfGFP in the cytoplasm. However, this effect is due to the dynamic range being adjusted to display a signal. This observation is consistent with the fact that the amount of TssB-msfGFP protein is identical across all strains (Fig. S2F).

      __ Authors’ reply #18: __We will adjust the images to the range of the WT in the revised manuscript, as suggested. However, regardless of how these images are presented, the enumeration of T6SS structures will remain unchanged, which was the sole point of this experiment.

      • *

      #19) Unless I am mistaken, the authors do not comment on the fact that in a ΔbfmS strain, the number of T6SS is halved compared to a WT or ΔitrA strain. If capsule overproduction only partially limits the TslA-dependant T6SS assembly, how can this result be explained? Is it related to the degradation of Hcp in this background, which ultimately limits the formation of T6SS? If so, it would be interesting to mention this connection in the section "Prolonged secretion inhibition triggers Hcp degradation”

      __ Authors’ reply #19: __We did mention that the T6SS assembly of the ΔbfmS mutant is reduced compared to the WT (or ΔitrA), likely due to the defect in sensing the prey (lines 369-374 and 468-472 of the initial manuscript). However, we will revise the sentence to improve clarity in the revised version of the manuscript.

      Significance

      #20) This work is highly intriguing as it not only delves into the specific mechanisms involved but also connects fundamental elements in bacterial competition, i.e., the necessity for self-protection and aggression for survival. The manuscript offers valuable insights into cellular dynamics at a microscale level and prompts new inquiries into the regulation of these systems on a population scale. The work is well-done and the writing is also clear. I am convinced that this work represents another significant step towards understanding bacterial mechanisms and will undoubtedly spark considerable interest in the field.

      __ Authors’ reply #20: __We sincerely thank reviewer #2 for their constructive inputs, which will improve our manuscript.

      • *

      Reviewer #3 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      #21) The manuscript by Flaugnatti et al investigates the relationship between functions of the T6SS in A. baumannii and production of capsular polysaccharide. The manuscript argues that (1) capsule protects A. baumannii against T6SS-mediated attack by other bacteria, (2) capsule also interferes with the bacterium's own T6SS activity, and (3) the T6SS inner tube protein Hcp is regulated by degradation by ClpXP. The main critiques regard the first two conclusions, which seem to be based solely on use of a mutant that has a confounding effect as described below; and to strengthen the third claim by further exploring the results of overexpressing Hcp and by determining whether there is a fitness benefit for Hcp regulation.

      __ Authors’ reply #21: __We thank reviewer #3 for their relevant input. We will conduct additional experiments based on their comments, and these will be incorporated into the revised manuscript.

      • *

      __Main items:____ __

      #22) Throughout the paper, an itrA deletion mutant is used as the capsule-deficient strain and conclusions are drawn about role of capsule based on this mutant. However, itrA deletion also eliminates the protein O-glycosylation pathway (Lees-miller et al 2013), a potential confounder. Analysis of mutants specifically deficient in the high-molecular weight capsule but not protein glycosylation, and/or mutants in the protein o-glycosylation enzyme, should be incorporated into the study to enhance the ability to make conclusions about the role of the capsule.

      __ Authors’ reply #22: __Fair point. We thank the reviewer for this important suggestion. To distinguish between the O-glycosylation pathway and capsule production, we will generate a ∆pglL strain (specific to O-glycosylation), as suggested, and will repeat the key experiments (similar to Fig. 2A and 2B). We are almost done with the engineering of this mutant strain and therefore don’t expect any major delays.

      #23) Evidence could be provided to support the idea raised in lines 482-483 that T6SS component accumulation is toxic ("degradation [of T6SS components] could serve as a strategy to alleviate proteotoxic stress..."). For example, growth curves of ∆clpXP strains with and without hcp could be analyzed, to determine how degrading Hcp is helping the bacteria.

      __ Authors’ reply #23: __We will perform growth curves of ΔclpXP strains with and without hcp, as suggested by the reviewer. However, we are uncertain whether we will be able to observe differences between these strains, as the conditions under which such degradation is significant may be challenging to replicate under standard laboratory conditions.

      __#24) __The possible ClpXP recognition sequence identified at the C terminus of Hcp is interesting-does overexpression of an Hcp variant lacking/altered in this motif alter its protein levels compared to WT Hcp?

      __ Authors’ reply #24: __We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We are in the process of performing the suggested experiment and will include the data in the manuscript.

      __Minor items:____ __

      #25) *A better explanation could be provided for why overexpressing hcp in WT but not in ∆hcp leads to increased Hcp protein levels. There is a statement about Hcp being regulated post transcriptionally, possibly by degradation (lines 422-423), but would that not also result in regulation in the WT strain? *

      __ Authors’ reply #25: __The reviewer is absolutely correct here. Despite careful genetic engineering, we believe that the hcp mutant used may have a polar effect, causing Hcp accumulation only in the ∆hcp + p-hcp strain but not in the WT + p-hcp strain, which remains capable of secretion. The ∆hcp strain therefore mimics the secretion-impaired tssB mutant. We will clarify this in the revised manuscript.

      #26) *An untreated control is needed in Fig. 4B. *

      __ Authors’ reply #26: __The untreated samples were shown in all previous figures. However, we understand the reviewer's point and will repeat the experiment with the untreated control included in the same experiment.

      #27) *line 179: please clarify "reflecting better invading bacteria" *

      __ Authors’ reply #27: __We appreciate the reviewer mentioning this oversight. We meant to compare this to a situation where a bacterium invades an already existing community, resulting in a predator-prey ratio below 1. We will clarify this further in the revised manuscript.

      #28) *line 351: consider rewording the statement that ∆tslA results in decreased in T6SS assembly and activity using the tssB-msfGFP microscopy assay; it is not clear that activity is measured in this assay. *

      __ Authors’ reply #28: __The reviewer is correct. We will revise the sentence accordingly to better reflect the T6SS assembly.

      #29) *lines 260-265: This experiment could use clarifying, but it would seem that it requires analysis of the secreted capsule levels in the tssB mutant to show it does not produce extracellular capsule to the same extent that ∆bfmS does. *

      __ Authors’ reply #29: __We thank the reviewer for the suggestion and will include these experimental data in the revised manuscript.

      #30) *Fig. 6C and 7A labelling could be improved to avoid potential confusion that the bar graphs are quantifying the western blot. E.g., could add a corresponding vertical label to the Western data, or consider changing "relative expression of hcp" to something reflecting analysis of transcript levels. *

      __ Authors’ reply #30: __We will improve this figure by splitting the qPCR and Western blot data into independent panels. This will eliminate any confusion.


      #31) lines 416-417 and Fig. 7A: states that "hcp mRNA levels increased significantly", but more careful wording could be used because the WT's transcript change is not significant after overexpression (though it is significant in ∆hcp).

      __ Authors’ reply #31: __Point well taken. We will improve the sentence (and Figure) to make its meaning unambiguous.

      • *

      #32) lines 479-480 states that in secretion-impaired strains accumulation of Hcp is mitigated by ClpXP; while this was shown for ∆tssB, was this also the case for ∆bfmS?

      __ Authors’ reply #32: __This is indeed an interesting suggestion. We are in the process of generating the double mutant ∆bfmSclpXP and will include the experimental results in the revised manuscript.


      Significance

      #33) *The strengths of the study are the focus on a clinically significant pathogen, the potential novel roles for the important capsule virulence factor of A. baumannii, and the identification of novel points of control of the T6SS. The analyses of T6SS function are thorough and carefully performed. *

      __ Authors’ reply #33: __We thank the reviewer for their comments, which we believe will significantly strengthen our work, particularly regarding the capsule aspect.

    1. Author response:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Abbasi et al. assess in this MEG study the directed connectivity of both cortical and subcortical regions during continuous speech production and perception. The authors observed bidirectional connectivity patterns between speech-related cortical areas as well as subcortical areas in production and perception. Interestingly, they found in speaking low-frequency connectivity from subcortical (the right cerebellum) to cortical (left superior temporal) areas, while connectivity from the cortical to subcortical areas was in the high frequencies. In listening a similar cortico-subcortical connectivity pattern was observed for the low frequencies, but the reversed connectivity in the higher frequencies was absent.

      The work by Abbasi and colleagues addresses a relevant, novel topic, namely understanding the brain dynamics between speaking and listening. This is important because traditionally production and perception of speech and language are investigated in a modality-specific manner. To have a more complete understanding of the neurobiology underlying these different speech behaviors, it is key to also understand their similarities and differences. Furthermore, to do so, the authors utilize state-of-the-art directed connectivity analyses on MEG measurements, providing a quite detailed profile of cortical and subcortical interactions for the production and perception of speech. Importantly, and perhaps most interesting in my opinion, is that the authors find evidence for frequency-specific directed connectivity, which is (partially) different between speaking and listening. This could suggest that both speech behaviors rely (to some extent) on similar cortico-cortical and cortico-subcortical networks, but different frequency-specific dynamics.

      These elements mentioned above (investigation of both production and perception, both cortico-cortical and cortico-subcortical connectivity is considered, and observing frequency-specific connectivity profiles within and between speech behaviors), make for important novel contributions to the field. Notwithstanding these strengths, I find that they are especially centered on methodology and functional anatomical description, but that precise theoretical contributions for neurobiological and cognitive models of speech are less transparent. This is in part because the study compares speech production and perception in general, but no psychophysical or psycholinguistic manipulations are considered. I also have some critical questions about the design which may pose some confounds in interpreting the data, especially with regard to comparing production and perception.

      (1) While the cortico-cortical and cortico-subcortical connectivity profiles highlighted in this study and the depth of the analyses are impressive, what these data mean for models of speech processing remains on the surface. This is in part due, I believe, to the fact that the authors have decided to explore speaking and listening in general, without targeting specific manipulations that help elucidate which aspects of speech processing are relevant for the particular connectivity profiles they have uncovered. For example, the frequency-specific directed connectivity is it driven by low-level psychophysical attributes of the speech or by more cognitive linguistic properties? Does it relate to the monitoring of speech, timing information, and updating of sensory predictions? Without manipulations trying to target one or several of these components, as some of the referenced work has done (e.g., Floegel et al., 2020; Stockert et al., 2021; Todorović et al., 2023), it is difficult to draw concrete conclusions as to which representations and/or processes of speech are reflected by the connectivity profiles. An additional disadvantage of not having manipulations within each speech behavior is that it makes the comparison between listening and speaking harder. That is, speaking and listening have marked input-output differences which likely will dominate any comparison between them. These physically driven differences (or similarities for that matter; see below) can be strongly reduced by instead exploring the same manipulations/variables between speaking and listening. If possible (if not to consider for future work), it may be interesting to score psychophysical (e.g., acoustic properties) or psycholinguistic (e.g., lexical frequency) information of the speech and see whether and how the frequency-specific connectivity profiles are affected by it.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. The current study is indeed part of a larger project investigating the role of the internal forward model in speech perception and production. In the original, more comprehensive study, we also included a masked condition where participants produced speech as usual, but their auditory perception was masked. This allowed us to examine how the internal forward model behaves when it doesn't receive the expected sensory consequences of generated speech. However, for the current study, we focused solely on data from the speaking and listening conditions due to its specific research question. We agree that further manipulations would be interesting. However, for this study our focus was on natural speech and we avoided other manipulations (beyond masked speech) so that we can have sufficiently long recording time for the main speaking and listening conditions.

      (2) Recent studies comparing the production and perception of language may be relevant to the current study and add some theoretical weight since their data and interpretations for the comparisons between production and perception fit quite well with the observations in the current work. These studies highlight that language processes between production and perception, specifically lexical and phonetic processing (Fairs et al., 2021), and syntactic processing (Giglio et al., 2024), may rely on the same neural representations, but are differentiated in their (temporal) dynamics upon those shared representations. This is relevant because it dispenses with the classical notion in neurobiological models of language where production and perception rely on (partially) dissociable networks (e.g., Price, 2010). Rather those data suggest shared networks where different language behaviors are dissociated in their dynamics. The speech results in this study nicely fit and extend those studies and their theoretical implications.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion and we will include these references and the points made by the reviewer in our revised manuscript.

      (3) The authors align the frequency-selective connectivity between the right cerebellum and left temporal speech areas with recent studies demonstrating a role for the right cerebellum for the internal modelling in speech production and monitoring (e.g., Stockert et al., 2021; Todorović et al., 2023). This link is indeed interesting, but it does seem relevant to point out that at a more specific scale, it does not concern the exact same regions between those studies and the current study. That is, in the current study the frequency-specific connectivity with temporal regions concerns lobule VI in the right cerebellum, while in the referenced work it concerns Crus I/II. The distinction seems relevant since Crus I/II has been linked to the internal modelling of more cognitive behavior, while lobule VI seems more motor-related and/or contextual-related (e.g., D'Mello et al., 2020; Runnqvist et al., 2021; Runnqvist, 2023).

      We thank the reviewer for their insightful comment. The reference was intended to provide evidence for the role of the cerebellum in internal modelling in speech. We do not claim that we have the spatial resolution with MEG to reliably spatially resolve specific parts of the cerebellum.

      (4) On the methodological side, my main concern is that for the listening condition, the authors have chosen to play back the speech produced by the participants in the production condition. Both the fixed order as well as hearing one's own speech as listening condition may produce confounds in data interpretation, especially with regard to the comparison between speech production and perception. Could order effects impact the observed connectivity profiles, and how would this impact the comparison between speaking and listening? In particular, I am thinking of repetition effects present in the listening condition as well as prediction, which will be much more elevated for the listening condition than the speaking condition. The fact that it also concerns their own voice furthermore adds to the possible predictability confound (e.g., Heinks-Maldonado et al., 2005). In addition, listening to one's speech which just before has been articulated may, potentially strategically even, enhance inner speech and "mouthing" in the participants, hereby thus engaging the production mechanism. Similarly, during production, the participants already hear their own voice (which serves as input in the subsequent listening condition). Taken together, both similarities or differences between speaking and listening connectivity may have been due to or influenced by these order effects, and the fact that the different speech behaviors are to some extent present in both conditions.

      This is a valid point raised by the reviewer. By listening to their own previously produced speech, our participants might have anticipated and predicted the sentences easier. However, during designing our experiment, we tried to lower the chance of this anticipation by several steps. First, participants were measured in separate sessions for speech production and perception tasks. There were always several days' intervals between performing these two conditions. Secondly, our questions were mainly about a common/general topic. Consequently, participants may not remember their answers completely.

      Importantly, using the same stimulus material for speaking and listening guaranteed that there was no difference in the low-level features of the material for both conditions that could have affected the results of our statistical comparison.

      Due to bone conduction, hearing one’s unaltered own speech from a recording may seem foreign and could lead to unwanted emotional reactions e.g. embarrassment, so participants were asked whether they heard their own voice in a recording already (e.g. from a self-recorded voice-message in WhatsApp) which most of them confirmed. Participants were also informed that they were going to hear themselves during the measurement to further reduce unwanted psychophysiological responses.

      (5) The ability of the authors to analyze the spatiotemporal dynamics during continuous speech is a potentially important feat of this study, given that one of the reasons that speech production is much less investigated compared to perception concerns motor and movement artifacts due to articulation (e.g., Strijkers et al., 2010). Two questions did spring to mind when reading the authors' articulation artifact correction procedure: If I understood correctly, the approach comes from Abbasi et al. (2021) and is based on signal space projection (SSP) as used for eye movement corrections, which the authors successfully applied to speech production. However, in that study, it concerned the repeated production of three syllables, while here it concerns continuous speech of full words embedded in discourse. The articulation and muscular variance will be much higher in the current study compared to three syllables (or compared to eye movements which produce much more stable movement potentials compared to an entire discourse). Given this, I can imagine that corrections of the signal in the speaking condition were likely substantial and one may wonder (1) how much signal relevant to speech production behavior is lost?; (2) similar corrections are not necessary for perception, so how would this marked difference in signal processing affect the comparability between the modalities?

      One of the results of our previous study (Abbasi et al., 2021) was that the artefact correction was not specific to individual syllables but generalised across syllables. Also, the repeated production of syllables was associated with substantial movements of the articulators mimicking those observed during naturalistic speaking. We therefore believe that the artefact rejection is effective during speaking. We also checked this by investigating speech related coherence in brain parcels in spatial proximity to the articulators. In our previous study we also show that the correction method retains neural activity to a very large degree. We are therefore confident that speaking and listening conditions can be compared and that the loss of true signals from correcting the speaking data will be minor.

      References:

      • Abbasi, O., Steingräber, N., & Gross, J. (2021). Correcting MEG artifacts caused by overt speech. Frontiers in Neuroscience, 15, 682419.

      • D'Mello, A. M., Gabrieli, J. D., & Nee, D. E. (2020). Evidence for hierarchical cognitive control in the human cerebellum. Current Biology, 30(10), 1881-1892.

      • Fairs, A., Michelas, A., Dufour, S., & Strijkers, K. (2021). The same ultra-rapid parallel brain dynamics underpin the production and perception of speech. Cerebral Cortex Communications, 2(3), tgab040.

      • Floegel, M., Fuchs, S., & Kell, C. A. (2020). Differential contributions of the two cerebral hemispheres to temporal and spectral speech feedback control. Nature Communications, 11(1), 2839.

      • Giglio, L., Ostarek, M., Sharoh, D., & Hagoort, P. (2024). Diverging neural dynamics for syntactic structure building in naturalistic speaking and listening. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 121(11), e2310766121.

      • Heinks‐Maldonado, T. H., Mathalon, D. H., Gray, M., & Ford, J. M. (2005). Fine‐tuning of auditory cortex during speech production. Psychophysiology, 42(2), 180-190.

      • Price, C. J. (2010). The anatomy of language: a review of 100 fMRI studies published in 2009. Annals of the new York Academy of Sciences, 1191(1), 62-88.

      • Runnqvist, E., Chanoine, V., Strijkers, K., Pattamadilok, C., Bonnard, M., Nazarian, B., ... & Alario, F. X. (2021). Cerebellar and cortical correlates of internal and external speech error monitoring. Cerebral Cortex Communications, 2(2), tgab038.

      • Runnqvist, E. (2023). Self-monitoring: The neurocognitive basis of error monitoring in language production. In Language production (pp. 168-190). Routledge.

      • Stockert, A., Schwartze, M., Poeppel, D., Anwander, A., & Kotz, S. A. (2021). Temporo-cerebellar connectivity underlies timing constraints in audition. Elife, 10, e67303.

      • Strijkers, K., Costa, A., & Thierry, G. (2010). Tracking lexical access in speech production: electrophysiological correlates of word frequency and cognate effects. Cerebral cortex, 20(4), 912-928.

      • Todorović, S., Anton, J. L., Sein, J., Nazarian, B., Chanoine, V., Rauchbauer, B., ... & Runnqvist, E. (2023). Cortico-cerebellar monitoring of speech sequence production. Neurobiology of Language, 1-21.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors re-analyse MEG data from a speech production and perception study and extend their previous Granger causality analysis to a larger number of cortical-cortical and in particular cortical-subcortical connections. Regions of interest were defined by means of a meta-analysis using Neurosynth.org and connectivity patterns were determined by calculating directed influence asymmetry indices from the Granger causality analysis results for each pair of brain regions. Abbasi et al. report feedforward signals communicated via fast rhythms and feedback signals via slow rhythms below 40 Hz, particularly during speaking. The authors highlight one of these connections between the right cerebellum lobule VI and auditory association area A5, where in addition the connection strength correlates negatively with the strength of speech tracking in the theta band during speaking (significant before multiple comparison correction). Results are interpreted within a framework of active inference by minimising prediction errors.

      While I find investigating the role of cortical-subcortical connections in speech production and perception interesting and relevant to the field, I am not yet convinced that the methods employed are fully suitable to this endeavour or that the results provide sufficient evidence to make the strong claim of dissociation of bottom-up and top-down information flow during speaking in distinct frequency bands.

      Strengths:

      The investigation of electrophysiological cortical-subcortical connections in speech production and perception is interesting and relevant to the field. The authors analyse a valuable dataset, where they spent a considerable amount of effort to correct for speech production-related artefacts. Overall, the manuscript is well-written and clearly structured.

      Weaknesses:

      The description of the multivariate Granger causality analysis did not allow me to fully grasp how the analysis was performed and I hence struggled to evaluate its appropriateness. Knowing that (1) filtered Granger causality is prone to false positives and (2) recent work demonstrates that significant Granger causality can simply arise from frequency-specific activity being present in the source but not the target area without functional relevance for communication (Schneider et al. 2021) raises doubts about the validity of the results, in particular with respect to their frequency specificity. These doubts are reinforced by what I perceive as an overemphasis on results that support the assumption of specific frequencies for feedforward and top-down connections, while findings not aligning with this hypothesis appear to be underreported. Furthermore, the authors report some main findings that I found difficult to reconcile with the data presented in the figures. Overall, I feel the conclusions with respect to frequency-specific bottom-up and top-down information flow need to be moderated and that some of the reported findings need to be checked and if necessary corrected.

      Major points

      (1) I think more details on the multivariate GC approach are needed. I found the reference to Schaum et al., 2021 not sufficient to understand what has been done in this paper. Some questions that remained for me are:

      (i) Does multivariate here refer to the use of the authors' three components per parcel or to the conditioning on the remaining twelve sources? I think the latter is implied when citing Schaum et al., but I'm not sure this is what was done here?

      If it was not: how can we account for spurious results based on indirect effects?

      Yes, multivariate refers to the three components.

      (ii) Did the authors check whether the GC of the course-target pairs was reliably above the bias level (as Schaum et. al. did for each condition separately)? If not, can they argue why they think that their results would still be valid? Does it make sense to compute DAIs on connections that were below the bias level? Should the data be re-analysed to take this concern into account?

      We performed statistics on DAI and believe that this is a valid approach. We argue that random GC effects would not survive our cluster-corrected statistics.

      (iii) You may consider citing the paper that introduced the non-parametric GC analysis (which Schaum et al. then went on to apply): Dhamala M, Rangarajan G, Ding M. Analyzing Information Flow in Brain Networks with Nonparametric Granger Causality. Neuroimage. 2008; 41(2):354-362. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.neuroimage.2008.02. 020

      Thanks, we will add this reference in the revised version.

      (2) GC has been discouraged for filtered data as it gives rise to false positives due to phase distortions and the ineffectiveness of filtering in the information-theoretic setting as reducing the power of a signal does not reduce the information contained in it (Florin et al., 2010; Barnett and Seth, 2011; Weber et al. 2017; Pinzuti et al., 2020 - who also suggest an approach that would circumvent those filter-related issues). With this in mind, I am wondering whether the strong frequency-specific claims in this work still hold.

      This must be a misunderstanding. We are aware of the problem with GC on filtered data. But GC was here computed on broadband data and not in individual frequency bands.

      (3) I found it difficult to reconcile some statements in the manuscript with the data presented in the figures:

      (i) Most notably, the considerable number of feedforward connections from A5 and STS that project to areas further up the hierarchy at slower rhythms (e.g. L-A5 to R-PEF, R-Crus2, L CB6 L-Tha, L-FOP and L-STS to R-PEF, L-FOP, L-TOPJ or R-A5 as well as R-STS both to R-Crus2, L-CB6, L-Th) contradict the authors' main message that 'feedback signals were communicated via slow rhythms below 40 Hz, whereas feedforward signals were communicated via faster rhythms'. I struggled to recognise a principled approach that determined which connections were highlighted and reported and which ones were not.

      (ii) "Our analysis also revealed robust connectivity between the right cerebellum and the left parietal cortex, evident in both speaking and listening conditions, with stronger connectivity observed during speaking. Notably, Figure 4 depicts a prominent frequency peak in the alpha band, illustrating the specific frequency range through which information flows from the cerebellum to the parietal areas." There are two peaks discernible in Figure 4, one notably lower than the alpha band (rather theta or even delta), the other at around 30 Hz. Nevertheless, the authors report and discuss a peak in the alpha band.

      (iii) In the abstract: "Notably, high-frequency connectivity was absent during the listening condition." and p.9 "In contrast with what we reported for the speaking condition, during listening, there is only a significant connectivity in low frequency to the left temporal area but not a reverse connection in the high frequencies."

      While Fig. 4 shows significant connectivity from R-CB6 to A5 in the gamma frequency range for the speaking, but not for the listening condition, interpreting comparisons between two effects without directly comparing them is a common statistical mistake (Makin and Orban de Xivry). The spectrally-resolved connectivity in the two conditions actually look remarkably similar and I would thus refrain from highlighting this statement and indicate clearly that there were no significant differences between the two conditions.

      (iv) "This result indicates that in low frequencies, the sensory-motor area and cerebellum predominantly transmit information, while in higher frequencies, they are more involved in receiving it."

      I don't think that this statement holds in its generality: L-CB6 and R-3b both show strong output at high frequencies, particularly in the speaking condition. While they seem to transmit information mainly to areas outside A5 and STS these effects are strong and should be discussed.

      We appreciate the reviewer's thoughtful comments. We acknowledge that not all connectivity patterns strictly adhere to the initial observation regarding feedback and feedforward communication. It's true that our primary focus was on interactions between brain regions known to be crucial for speech prediction, including auditory, somatosensory, and cerebellar areas. However, we also presented connectivity patterns across other regions to provide a more comprehensive picture of the speech network. We believe this broader perspective can be valuable for future research directions.

      Regarding the reviewer's observation about the alpha band peak in Figure 4, we agree that a closer examination reveals the connectivity from right cerebellum to the left parietal is in a wider low frequency range. We will refrain from solely emphasizing the alpha band and acknowledge the potential contribution of lower frequencies to cerebellar-parietal communication.

      We also appreciate the reviewer highlighting the need for a more nuanced interpretation of the listening condition connectivity compared to the speaking condition. The reviewer is correct in pointing out that while Figure 4 suggests a high-frequency connectivity from L-A5 to R-CB only in the speaking condition, a direct statistical comparison between conditions might not reveal a significant difference. We will revise the manuscript to clarify this point.

      Finally, a closer examination of Figure 3 revealed that the light purple and dark green edges in the speaking condition for R-CB6 and L-3b suggest outgoing connections at low frequencies, while other colored edges indicate information reception at high frequencies. We acknowledge that exceptions to this directional pattern might exist and warrant further investigation in future studies.

      (4) "However, definitive conclusions should be drawn with caution given recent studies raising concerns about the notion that top-down and bottom-up signals can only be transmitted via separate frequency channels (Ferro et al., 2021; Schneider et al., 2021; Vinck et al., 2023)."

      I appreciate this note of caution and think it would be useful if it were spelled out to the reader why this is the case so that they would be better able to grasp the main concerns here. For example, Schneider et al. make a strong point that we expect to find Granger-causality with a peak in a specific frequency band for areas that are anatomically connected when the sending area shows stronger activity in that band than the receiving one, simply because of the coherence of a signal with its own linear projection onto the other area. The direction of a Granger causal connection would in that case only indicate that one area shows stronger activity than the other in the given frequency band. I am wondering to what degree the reported connectivity pattern can be traced back to regional differences in frequency-specific source strength or to differences in source strength across the two conditions.

      This is indeed an important point. That is why we are discussing our results with great caution and specifically point the reader to the relevant literature. We are indeed thinking about a future study where we investigate this connectivity using other connectivity metrics and a detailed consideration of power.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      In the current paper, Abbasi et al. aimed to characterize and compare the patterns of functional connectivity across frequency bands (1 Hz - 90 Hz) between regions of a speech network derived from an online meta-analysis tool (Neurosynth.org) during speech production and perception. The authors present evidence for complex neural dynamics from which they highlight directional connectivity from the right cerebellum to left superior temporal areas in lower frequency bands (up to beta) and between the same regions in the opposite direction in the (lower) high gamma range (60-90 Hz). Abbasi et al. interpret their findings within the predictive coding framework, with the cerebellum and other "higher-order" (motor) regions transmitting top-down sensory predictions to "lower-order" (sensory) regions in the lower frequencies and prediction errors flowing in the opposite direction (i.e., bottom-up) from those sensory regions in the gamma band. They also report a negative correlation between the strength of this top-down functional connectivity and the alignment of superior temporal regions to the syllable rate of one's speech.

      Strengths:

      (1) The comprehensive characterization of functional connectivity during speaking and listening to speech may be valuable as a first step toward understanding the neural dynamics involved.

      (2) The inclusion of subcortical regions and connectivity profiles up to 90Hz using MEG is interesting and relatively novel.

      (3) The analysis pipeline is generally adequate for the exploratory nature of the work.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The work is framed as a test of the predictive coding theory as it applies to speech production and perception, but the methodological approach is not suited to this endeavor.

      We agree that we cannot provide definite evidence for predictive coding in speech production and perception and we believe that we do not make that claim in the manuscript. However, our results are largely consistent with what can be expected based on predictive coding theory.

      (2) Because of their theoretical framework, the authors readily attribute roles or hierarchy to brain regions (e.g., higher- vs lower-order) and cognitive functions to observed connectivity patterns (e.g., feedforward vs feedback, predictions vs prediction errors) that cannot be determined from the data. Thus, many of the authors' claims are unsupported.

      We will revise the manuscript to more clearly differentiate our results (e.g. directed Granger-Causality from A to B) from their interpretation (potentially indicating feedforward or feedback signals).

      (3) The authors' theoretical stance seems to influence the presentation of the results, which may inadvertently misrepresent the (otherwise perfectly valid; cf. Abbasi et al., 2023) exploratory nature of the study. Thus, results about specific regions are often highlighted in figures (e.g., Figure 2 top row) and text without clear reasons.

      Our connectograms reveal a multitude of results that we hope is interesting to the community. At the same time the wealth of findings poses a problem for describing them. We did not see a better way then to highlight specific connections of interest.

      (4) Some of the key findings (e.g., connectivity in opposite directions in distinct frequency bands) feature in a previous publication and are, therefore, interesting but not novel.

      We actually see this as a strength of the current manuscript. The computation of connectivity is here extended to a much larger sample of brain areas. It is reassuring to see that the previously reported results generalise to other brain areas.

      (5) The quantitative comparison between speech production and perception is interesting but insufficiently motivated.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. We have addressed that in detail in response to the point (1&4) of reviewer 1.

      (6) Details about the Neurosynth meta-analysis and subsequent selection of brain regions for the functional connectivity analyses are incomplete. Moreover, the use of the term 'Speech' in Neurosynth seems inappropriate (i.e., includes irrelevant works, yielding questionable results). The approach of using separate meta-analyses for 'Speech production' and 'Speech perception' taken by Abbasi et al. (2023) seems more principled. This approach would result, for example, in the inclusion of brain areas such as M1 and the BG that are relevant for speech production.

      We agree that there are inherent limitations in automated meta-analysis tools such as Neurosynth. Papers are used in the meta-analysis that might not be directly relevant. However, Neurosynth has proven its usefulness over many years and has been used in many studies. We also agree that our selection of brain areas is not complete. But Granger Causality analysis of every pair of ROIs leads to complex results and we had to limit our selection of areas.

      (7) The results involving subcortical regions are central to the paper, but no steps are taken to address the challenges involved in the analysis of subcortical activity using MEG. Additional methodological detail and analyses would be required to make these results more compelling. For example, it would be important to know what the coverage of the MEG system is, what head model was used for the source localization of cerebellar activity, and if specific preprocessing or additional analyses were performed to ensure that the localized subcortical activity (in particular) is valid.

      There is a large body of evidence demonstrating that MEG can record signals from deep brain areas such as thalamus and cerebellum including Attal & Schwarz 2013, Andersen et al, Neuroimage 2020; Piastra et al., 2020; Schnitzler et al., 2009. These and other studies provide evidence that state-of-the-art recording (with multichannel SQUID systems) and analysis is sufficient to allow reconstruction of subcortical areas. However, spatial resolution is clearly reduced for these deep areas. We will add a statement in the revised manuscript to acknowledge this limitation.

      (8) The results and methods are often detailed with important omissions (a speech-brain coupling analysis section is missing) and imprecisions (e.g., re: Figure 5; the Connectivity Analysis section is copy-pasted from their previous work), which makes it difficult to understand what is being examined and how. (It is also not good practice to refer the reader to previous publications for basic methodological details, for example, about the experimental paradigm and key analyses.) Conversely, some methodological details are given, e.g., the acquisition of EMG data, without further explanation of how those data were used in the current paper.

      We will revise the relevant sections of the manuscript.

      (9) The examination of gamma functional connectivity in the 60 - 90 Hz range could be better motivated. Although some citations involving short-range connectivity in these frequencies are given (e.g., within the visual system), a more compelling argument for looking at this frequency range for longer-range connectivity may be required.

      Given previous evidence of connectivity in the gamma band we think that it would be a weakness to exclude this frequency band from analysis.

      (10) The choice of source localization method (linearly constrained minimum variance) could be explained, particularly given that other methods (e.g. dynamic imaging of coherent sources) were specifically designed and might potentially be a better alternative for the types of analyses performed in the study.

      Both LCMV and DICS are beamforming methods. We used LCMV because we wanted used Granger Causality which requires broadband signals. DICS would only provide frequency-specific band-limited signals.

      (11) The mGC analysis needs to be more comprehensively detailed for the reader to be able to assess what is being reported and the strength of the evidence. Relatedly, first-level statistics (e.g., via estimation of the noise level) would make the mGC and DAI results more compelling.

      We perform group-level cluster-based statistics on mGC while correcting for multiple comparisons across frequency bands and brain parcels and report only significant results. This is an established approach that is routinely used in this type of studies.

      (12) Considering the exploratory nature of the study, it is essential for other researchers to continue investigating and validating the results presented in the current manuscript. Thus, it is concerning that data and scripts are not fully and openly available. Data need not be in its raw state to be shared and useful, which circumvents the stated data privacy concerns.

      We acknowledge the reviewer's concern regarding the full availability of the dataset. Due to privacy limitations on the collected data, we are unable to share it publicly at this time. However, to promote transparency and enable further exploration, we have provided the script used for data analysis and an example dataset. This example dataset should provide a clear understanding of the data structure and variables used in the analysis. Additionally, we are happy to share the complete dataset upon request from research teams interested in performing in-depth secondary analyses.

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      ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwoA2ikIPV0)

      [

      🌐youtube.com

      Dr. Subramanian Swamy Reveals PM Modi's Next Moves After Winning ...

      May 3, 2024

      ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJPbNPKJ8Uo)

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      🌐bloomberg.com

      Watch BofA's Subramanian: Things Today Are 'Kind of Awesome' ...

      1 week ago

      ](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2024-06-12/bofa-s-subramanian-says-things-today-are-kind-of-awesome-for-stocks)

      [

      🌐youtube.com

      BofA's Subramanian Says Things Today Are 'Kind of Awesome' ...

      1 week ago

      ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hk1zfCuBaHI)

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      🌐youtube.com

      Fall of Modi & Future Rise of BJP - Dr Subramanian Swamy - YouTube

      2 weeks ago

      ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZKZBg9m4Ao)

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      Oregonstate

      chemistry.oregonstate.edu› directory › mas-subramanian

      Mas Subramanian | Department of Chemistry

      ](https://chemistry.oregonstate.edu/directory/mas-subramanian)

      September 23, 2022 - Heo, J., Ravichandran, R., Laurita, G., Muir, S., Subramanian, M.A., Wager, J.F., Keszler, D.A. New multi-functional chalcogenides as photovoltaic and thermoelectric materials. American Chemical Society, Division of Energy & Fuels, (2014) 59, 579-580

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      Theprint

      theprint.in› author › anusha-subramanian

      Anusha Subramanian

      ](https://theprint.in/author/anusha-subramanian/)

      4 days ago - India's digital platform for latest news and reports, Lok Sabha Elections 2024, insightful analyses, opinion on politics, policy, governance, economy, education, defence and culture.

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      🌐

      Harvard

      hsph.harvard.edu› sv-subramanian

      S V Subramanian's Faculty Website | Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health

      ](https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/sv-subramanian/)

      April 26, 2021 - S ("Subu") V Subramanian is Professor of Population Health and Geography at Harvard University, Faculty Chair of the Center for Geographic Analysis at Harvard University. He is the Principal Investigator of the Geographic Insights Lab based at the Harvard Center for Population and Development ...

      [

      🌐

      Bloomberg

      bloomberg.com› news › articles › 2024-06-12 › bofa-s-subramanian-says-things-are-kind-of-awesome-for-stocks

      BofA's Subramanian Says Things 'Kind of Awesome' for Stocks - Bloomberg

      ](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-06-12/bofa-s-subramanian-says-things-are-kind-of-awesome-for-stocks?srnd=markets-vp)

      1 week ago - As naysayers fret over a potential slowdown from the prospect of interest rates remaining elevated for longer, Bank of America Corp.'s Savita Subramanian says the economy looks good, a backdrop that will continue to bode well for US stocks.

      Find elsewhere

      GoogleBingMojeek

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      Facebook

      facebook.com› Swamy39

      Dr. Subramanian Swamy

      ](https://www.facebook.com/Swamy39/)

      March 24, 2023 - Dr. Subramanian Swamy. 707,762 likes - 4,173 talking about this. President of Virat Hindustan Sangam,Fmr Cabinet Minister,6 terms MP,Member BJP,Harvard Ph.D Economics

      [

      🌐

      Oregonstate

      subramanian.chem.oregonstate.edu

      Subramanian Research Group | Subramanian Research Group

      ](https://subramanian.chem.oregonstate.edu/)

      Where Discoveries Happen - 2023 Spring Group Photo (L-R, back row-front row): Owen, Jun, Shiva, Shivani, Gary, Alyssa, Jenny, Anjali, Mas, Yu-An, Erin

      [

      🌐

      Tgh

      doctors.tgh.org› doctor › npi_1932549359 › Vijay+Subramanian

      About Vijay Subramanian MD

      ](https://doctors.tgh.org/doctor/npi_1932549359/Vijay+Subramanian)

      Vijay Subramanian, MD, is board certified in general surgery. He earned his Bachelor of Medicine and Bachelor of Surgery at Christian Medical College in Vellore, India. He completed his fellowship in abdominal transplantation, hepatobiliary and pancreatic surgery at Washington University School ...

      [

      🌐

      PIIE

      piie.com› experts › senior-research-staff › arvind-subramanian

      Arvind Subramanian | PIIE

      ](https://www.piie.com/experts/senior-research-staff/arvind-subramanian)

      March 10, 2016 - Arvind Subramanian, senior fellow at the Peterson Institute for International Economics, has been associated with the Institute since 2007. He was the Dennis Weatherstone Senior Fellow at the Institute during 2013--14 and was on leave for public service from 2014 to August 2023.

      [

      🌐

      Twitter

      twitter.com› Swamy39 › status › 1798207016307216532

      Subramanian Swamy

      ](https://twitter.com/Swamy39/status/1798207016307216532)

      Subramanian Swamy

      [

      🌐

      Charlotte

      cci.charlotte.edu › home › kalpathi subramanian

      Kalpathi Subramanian - College of Computing and Informatics

      ](https://cci.charlotte.edu/directory/kalpathi-subramanian/)

      December 28, 2018 - Kalpathi Subramanian's research interests are in the areas of Computer Graphics, Scientific, Engineering and Medical Visualization, and more recently, Computer Science Education. Current research projects also include virtual and augmented reality applications in different disciplinary areas.

      [

      🌐

      Purdue

      bio.purdue.edu› People › profile › subram68.html

      subramanian - Department of Biological Sciences - Purdue University

      ](https://www.bio.purdue.edu/People/profile/subram68.html)

      (Structural Biology and Biophysics) Macromolecular structure and function using diffraction and cryo-EM. Enzyme mechanisms, protein-protein and protein-ligand interactions - The laboratory has a long term interest in understanding the relationship between atomic resolution structures and molecular ...

      [

      🌐

      Missouri

      medicine.missouri.edu› faculty › venkateswaran-subramanian-phd

      Venkateswaran Subramanian, PhD - MU School of Medicine

      ](https://medicine.missouri.edu/faculty/venkateswaran-subramanian-phd)

      The Subramanian Lab's research is dedicated to identifying efficient therapeutic targets for the complex life-threatening sexually dimorphic aortic vascular disease - abdominal aortic aneurysms (AAA). AAA is an asymptomatic permanent dilation of abdominal aorta which often cause death by ...

      [

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      Wikipedia

      en.wikipedia.org› wiki › Subramaniam

      Subramaniam - Wikipedia

      ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subramaniam)

      April 29, 2024 - Subramaniam, Subrahmaniam, Subramaniam or Subramanian (Tamil: சுப்பிரமணியம்; Telugu: శుబ్రహ్మనియమం) is a South Indian male given name. Due to the South Indian tradition of using patronymic surnames it may also be a surname for males and females.

      Notable peopleOther uses

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      Harvard Law School

      hls.harvard.edu › home › faculty › guhan subramanian

      Guhan Subramanian - Harvard Law School | Harvard Law School

      ](https://hls.harvard.edu/faculty/guhan-subramanian/)

      2 weeks ago - Guhan Subramanian is the Joseph Flom Professor of Law and Business at the Harvard Law School and the Douglas Weaver Professor of Business Law at the Harvard Business School. He is the first person in the history of Harvard University to hold tenured appointments at both HLS and HBS.

      [

      🌐

      Ku

      pharmtox.ku.edu› people › jai-subramanian

      Jai Subramanian | Department of Pharmacology & Toxicology

      ](https://pharmtox.ku.edu/people/jai-subramanian)

      Subramanian's research focuses on synaptic plasticity associated with learning and memory and their dysfunction in mouse models of neurodegenerative disorders. His lab utilizes state of the art approaches, such as single neuron genetic manipulations, in vivo synaptic labeling and multi-color ...

      [

      🌐

      Utexas

      me.utexas.edu› people › faculty-directory › subramanian

      Venkat Subramanian

      ](https://www.me.utexas.edu/people/faculty-directory/subramanian)

      January 4, 2021 - Walker Department of Mechanical Engineering at the Cockrell School, University of Texas at Austin

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      Subramanian Swamy

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      Indian politician

      swamy39.blogspot.com

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      subramanian swamy

      Subramanian Swamy (born 15 September 1939) is an Indian politician, economist and statistician. Before joining politics, he was a professor of Mathematical Economics at the Indian Institute of Technology, Delhi. He is known for his Hindu nationalist views. Swamy was a member of the Planning ... Wikipedia

      Factsheet

      Member of Parliament, Rajya Sabha\ In office 26 April 2016 -- 24 April 2022

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      In office 1988--1994

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    1. dação

      A dação é operada com bem imóvel apenas.

      Nesse sentido:

      Caso o Código Tributário Nacional tivesse ido além, autorizando a dação em pagamento não apenas em bens imóveis, mas também em bens móveis, o novo dispositivo provavelmente seria declarado inconstitucional nesta parte. Isso porque, o Supremo Tribunal Federal, antes da edição da Lei Complementar nº 104/2001, no julgamento da ADI 1.917, entendeu que a dação em pagamento em bens móveis implicava em ofensa ao princípio da licitação, insculpido no inciso XXI do artigo 37 da Constituição Federal


      Observe que, para maior parte da doutrina, o dispositivo do art. 141 também indica que as hipóteses de suspensão, extinção e exclusão do crédito tributário são taxativas, não podendo ser ampliadas por meio de lei ordinária. Esse foi, inclusive, o entendimento adotado pelo Supremo Tribunal Federal quando enfrentou o tema nas primeiras oportunidades. Posteriormente, no entanto, ao julgar a Medida Cautelar na ADI 2405, a Corte modificou sua posição, entendendo como possível que um Estado criasse uma nova modalidade de extinção – dação em pagamento - até então não prevista no texto do Código Tributário Nacional. O Argumento se fundou na seguinte premissa: se o Estado pode o mais, que é conceder a remissão (perdoar a dívida), também pode o menos, que seria aceitar formas alternativas de pagamento.

      Ação direta de inconstitucionalidade: medida cautelar: L. estadual (RS) 11.475, de 28 de abril de 2000, que introduz alterações em leis estaduais (6.537/73 e 9.298/91) que regulam o procedimento fiscal administrativo do Estado e a cobrança judicial de créditos inscritos em dívida ativa da fazenda pública estadual, bem como prevê a dação em pagamento como modalidade de extinção de crédito tributário. I - Extinção de crédito tributário criação de nova modalidade (dação em pagamento) por lei estadual: possibilidade do Estado-membro estabelecer regras específicas de quitação de seus próprios créditos tributários. Alteração do entendimento firmado na ADInMC 1917-DF, 18.12.98, Marco Aurélio, DJ 19.09.2003: conseqüente ausência de plausibilidade da alegação de ofensa ao art. 146, III, b, da Constituição Federal, que reserva à lei complementar o estabelecimento de normas gerais reguladoras dos modos de extinção e suspensão da exigibilidade de crédito tributário. [...] (ADI 2405 MC, Relator(a):  Min. CARLOS BRITTO, Relator(a) p/ Acórdão:  Min. SEPÚLVEDA PERTENCE, Tribunal Pleno, julgado em 06/11/2002, DJ 17-02-2006 PP-00054 EMENT VOL-02221-01 PP-00071 LEXSTF v. 28, n. 327, 2006, p. 14-56)

    1. Note: This response was posted by the corresponding author to Review Commons. The content has not been altered except for formatting.

      Learn more at Review Commons


      Reply to the reviewers

      1. General Statements [optional]

      We thank all the reviewers for their constructive and critical comments. We provide a point-by-point response to the reviewers' comments, as detailed below. By responding to them, we believe that our revised manuscript will significantly improve so that it will be of interest for researchers in the field of cell biology, signaling pathways, physiology and nutrition.

      Reply to the reviewers

      Reviewer #1 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity):

      Summary: The manuscript by Yusuke Toyoda and co-workers describes that the phosphorylation of the a-arrestin Aly3 downstream of TORC2 and GAD8 (AKT) negatively regulates endocytosis of the hexose transporter Ght5 in S.pombe under glucose limiting growth conditions.

      To arrive at these conclusions, the researchers define a set of redundant c-terminal phosphorylation sites in Aly3 that are downstream by GAD8. Phosphorylation of these sites reduces Ght5 ubiquitination and endocytosis. For ubiquitination, Aly3 interacts with the ubiquitin ligases Pub1/3.

      We thank the reviewer for his/her time and reporting advantages and issues of this study.

      Major points:

      Figure 3B: it would be interesting to compare Aly3 migration pattern (and hence potential phosphorylation) under glucose replete or limiting growth conditions. Can the authors provide direct evidence that Aly3 phosphorylation changes in response to glucose availability? Also please explain the 'smear' in lanes aly3(4th Ala), aly3(4th Ala, A584S), aly3(4th Ala, A586T).

      While it is an interesting possibility that the Aly3 migration pattern changes in response to glucose concentrations in medium, we think that this is unlikely and that examining this possibility is beyond the scope of this study. Because a phospho-proteomics study reported by Dr. Paul Nurse's lab showed Tor1-dependent phosphorylation of Aly3 at S584 under high glucose (2%) conditions (Mak et al, EMBO J, 2021), the Aly3 phosphorylation (migration) pattern is likely to be constant regardless of glucose conditions. Glucose conditions affect the mRNA and protein levels of Ght5, but supposedly not its endocytosis to vacuoles (Saitoh et al, Mol Biol Cell, 2015; Toyoda et al, J Cell Sci, 2021).

      As for the smear in Aly3(4th A), Aly3(4th A;A584S), Aly3(4th A; A586T), we suspect that some posttranslational modification occurs on these mutant Aly3 proteins, but the identity of the modification is unclear. We did not mention the smear signals in the original manuscript, because the presence or absence of the smear did not necessarily correlate with cell proliferation in low glucose and thus vacuolar localization of Ght5, which is the main topic of this study. In the revised manuscript, we will mention this point more clearly.

      Figure 4: Ght5 localization should be analyzed + / - thiamine and in media with different glucose levels. Also, a co-localization with a vacuolar marker (FM4-64) would be nice (but not necessary). Ideally, the authors should add WB analysis of Ght5 turnover to complement the imaging data. Also, would it be possible to measure directly the effects on glucose uptake (using eg: 2-NBDG).

      In this revision, we plan to observe Ght5 localization under the conditions indicated by the reviewer (+/- thiamine and high/low glucose levels) to unambiguously show that the vacuolar localization of Ght5 occurs in a manner dependent solely on expression of the mutant Aly3 protein.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion of co-staining with FM4-64. Indeed, because we previously reported that the cytoplasmic Ght5 signals were surrounded by FM4-64 signals in the TORC2-deficient tor1Δ mutant cells (Toyoda et al, J Cell Sci, 2021), the cytoplasmic Ght5-GFP signals in Figure 4 are very likely to co-localize with vacuoles. We will modify the text to clarify this point.

      As suggested, we plan to add Western blot analysis of Ght5 turnover in Aly3-expressing cells, to complement the imaging data (Figure 4) in the revised manuscript. Persistent appearance of GFP in Western blot would be a good support for vacuolar transport of Ght5-GFP.

      While regulation of glucose uptake is an important issue, measurement of Ght5-dependent glucose uptake using 2-NBDG was very difficult in our hands. Another reviewer (Reviewer #2) also mentioned the difficulty of this measurement in the Referees cross-commenting section.

      Figure 5: Given the localization of Ght5 shown in Figure 4, I'm surprised that it is possible in to detect full length Ght5, and its ubiquitination in the phospho-mutants of Aly3. I expected that the majority of Ght5 would be constitutively degraded, and that one would need to prevent endocytosis and/or vacuolar degradation to detect full length Ght5 and ubiquitination. Please explain the discrepancy. Also it seems that the quantification in B was performed on a single experiment.

      As the aim of Figure 5 is to compare the ubiquitinated species of Ght5 among the samples expressing different species of Aly3, the loading amount of each sample was adjusted so that the abundance of immunoprecipitated Ght5 is same across them. Therefore, as the reviewer points out, before the adjustment, abundance of the full-length Ght5 might be different in these samples. In the revised manuscript, we will add explanation on this point; why the anti-GFP blot of Figure 5A has the similar intensities in those samples.

      In the revised manuscript, we will add two additional replicates of the same experiment as Figure 5 in Supplementary material to show reproducibility of the result.

      Figure 6: Which PPxY motif of Aly3 is used for interaction with Pub1/3 and does their interaction depend on (de)phosphorylation?

      In the revised manuscript, we will discuss that "both PY motifs of Aly3 might be required for full interaction with Pub1/3," by citing the following published knowledge:

      (a) Mutation of both PPxY motif of budding yeast Rod1 and Rog3 (Aly3 homologs) diminished their interaction with the ubiquitin ligase Rsp5 (Andoh et al, FEBS Lett, 2002).

      (b) Mutating either one of two PPxY motifs of budding yeast Cvs7/Art1 greatly decreased interaction with WW domain, and mutating both abolished the interaction (Lin et al, Cell, 2008).

      Our preliminary results indicated that Pub3 interacted with Aly3, Aly3(4th A) and phospho-mimetic Aly3(4th D), and thus suggested that the Aly3-Pub1/3 interaction does not depend on the phosphorylation status of Aly3. Consistently, budding yeast Rod1 reportedly interacts with Rsp5 regardless of its phosphorylation status (e.g. Becuwe et al, J Cell Biol, 2012). While we have partially mentioned this point in the original manuscript (L499-503), we will discuss this point more clearly in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #1 (Significance):

      The results are well presented and clear cut (with few exceptions, please see major points). They provide further evidence that metabolic cues instruct the phosphorylation of a-arrestins. Phosphorylation then negatively regulates a-arrestin function in selective endocytosis and is essential to adjust nutrient uptake across the plasma membrane to the given biological context.

      We thank the reviewer for finding significance of our study. We believe that adding new results of the requested experiments and responding to the raised comments will clarify the significance of our revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity):

      **Summary / background. This paper focuses on the regulation of endocytosis of the hexose transporter, Ght5, in S. pombe by nutrient limitation through the arrestin-like protein Aly3. Ght5 is induced when glucose is limiting and is required for growth and proliferation in these conditions. ght5+ encodes the only high-affinity glc transporter from fission yeast. ght5+ is induced in low glucose conditions at the transcriptional level and is translocated to the plasma membrane to allow glc import. Ght5 is targeted to the vacuole in conditions of N limitation. Mutations in the TORC2 pathway lead to the same process, thus preventing growth on low glucose medium, as shown in the gad8ts mutant, mutated for the Gad8 kinase acting downstream of TORC2. Previously, the authors demonstrated that the vacuolar delivery of Ght5 in the gad8ts mutant is suppressed by mutation of the arrestin-like protein Aly3. Arrestin-like proteins are in charge of recognising and ubiquitinating plasma membrane proteins to direct their vacuolar targeting by the endocytosis pathway. This suggested that Aly3 is hyperactive in TORC2 mutants, and accordingly, Ght5 ubiquitination was increased in gad8ts.

      **Overall statement This study aims at deepening our understanding of the regulation of endocytosis by signalling pathways through arrestin-like proteins. Ght5 is a nice model to study a physiological regulation, and the authors have a great set of tools at hand. However, I think the conclusions are not always rigorous and the conclusions are sometimes far-reaching. The main problem is that much of the conclusions concern a potential phosphorylation of Aly3 which is not experimentally addressed. An additional issue is the fact that they look at Ght5 ubiquitination by co-immunoprecipitation in native conditions (or at least, it seems to me) which cannot be conclusive. Overall, I think some experiments should be performed to address (at least) these 2 points before the manuscript can be published, see detailed comments below.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing both advantages and issues of our manuscript.

      We admit that phosphorylation of Aly3 was not experimentally shown in our manuscript, although its phosphorylation has already been shown in phospho-proteomic studies by other groups. For this issue, we plan to add an experiment and modify the text, as explained below.

      The other major issue raised by this reviewer is that detection of Ght5 ubiquitination by immunoprecipitation in a native condition cannot be conclusive. Although we noticed that many studies perform affinity purification after denaturing and precipitating proteins with TCA or acetone to detect ubiquitination of the affinity-purified protein (e.g. Lin et al, Cell, 2008), we disagree with this opinion of the reviewer #2. In a review article describing methods to study ubiquitination by immunoblotting (Emmerich and Cohen, Biochem Biophys Res Comm, 2015), affinity purification of the protein of interest in a native condition is mentioned as one major choice. Moreover, a denaturing condition was not applicable to detect ubiquitinated Ght5 because the Ght5 protein that is once denatured and precipitated with TCA cannot be re-solubilized for immune-purification and -blotting. As the reviewer points out, a pitfall of detection of ubiquitinated Ght5 in a native condition is the presence of co-immunoprecipitated proteins. In our previous study (Toyoda et al, J Cell Sci, 2021), we purified GFP-tagged Ght5 and showed that a 110 kDa band detected in an anti-Ub immunoblot was also recognized by an anti-GFP antibody, confirming that the detected 110 kDa band corresponded to an ubiquitinated species of Ght5, but not a co-immunoprecipitated protein. Similarly, in the revised manuscript, we will add a panel of high-contrast (over-exposed) anti-GFP immunoblot, in which the indicated 110 kDa band was clearly detected by an anti-GFP antibody, in Figure 5A.

      We appreciate these issues raised by the reviewer #2. By responding to them, we believe that conclusions of our study will be more rigorous and undoubtful in the revised manuscript.

      **Major statements and criticism.

      *Fig 1. Based on the hypothesis that TORC2-mediated phosphorylation regulate Ght5 endocytosis, the authors first considered a possible phosphorylation of Ght5. They mutagenised 11 **possible** phosphorylation sites on the Ct of Ght5, but none affected the growth on low glucose in the absence of thiamine, suggesting that they don't contribute to the observed TORC2-mediated regulation. However, I disagree with the statement that "phosphorylation of Ght5 is dispensable for cell proliferation in low glucose", given that the authors do not show 1- that Ght5 is phosphorylated and 2-that this is abolished by these mutations. They should either provide data on this or tone down and say that these residues are not involved in the regulation, without implying phosphorylation which is not proven.

      Although we did not experimentally test whether these 11 residues of Ght5 was phosphorylated in our hand, these residues have been shown to be phosphorylated in phospho-proteomics studies by other groups (Kettenbach et al, Mol Cell Proteomics, 2015; Swaffer et al, Cell Rep, 2018; Tay et al, Cell Rep, 2019; Halova et al, Open Biol, 2021; Mak et al, EMBO J, 2021). In the revised manuscript, we plan to be more precise by replacing this conclusion with the following statement: "11 Ser/Thr residues of Ght5, which are reportedly phosphorylated, are not essential for cell proliferation in low glucose."

      In the presence of Thiamine (Supp fig 1), it seems that the ST/A mutant grows better in low glucose, and this is not explained nor commented. Since the transporter is not expressed, could the authors provide an explanation to this? If the promoter is leaky and some ght5-ST/A is expressed, it may be more stable and allow better growth than the WT, which would tend to indicate that impairing phosphorylation prevents endocytosis (which is classical for many transporters, see the body of work on CK1-mediated phosphorylation of transporters). Have the authors tried to decrease glc concentration lower than 0.14% in the absence of thiamine to see if this also true when the transporters is strongly expressed? (OPTIONAL)

      Improved growth of Ght5(ST11A)-expressing cells in the presence of thiamine was mentioned in the legend of Supplementary Figure 1A. In the revised manuscript, we will mention this observation also in the main text for better description of the results.

      Adding thiamine to medium does not completely shut off transcription from the nmt1 promoter but allows some transcription, as previously reported (Maundrell, J Biol Chem, 1990; Forsburg, Nuc Acid Res, 1993). In the revised manuscript, we will mention this "leakiness" of the nmt1 promoter and, by citing the suggested studies, will discuss a possibility that the ST11A mutations might prevent endocytosis of Ght5 and consequently promote cell proliferation in low glucose conditions.

      We found that, in the absence of thiamine, cells expressing ght5+ and ght5(ST11A) proliferated to the comparable extent on medium containing 0.08% glucose. This result will be added to the revised manuscript.

      *Fig 2. The authors then follow the hypothesis that TORC2 exerts its Ght5-dependent regulation through the phosphorylation of Aly3. They mutagenised 18 **possible** phosphorylation sites on Aly3. This led to a strong defect in growth in low-glc medium. Mutation of the possible Gad8 site (S460) did not recapitulate this phenotype, suggesting that it is not sufficient, however, mutations of 4 ST residues in a CT cluster (582-586) mimicked the full 18ST/A mutation, suggesting these are the important residues for Ght5 endocytosis.

      We thank the reviewer for appreciating the results in Fig. 2. As we explain below, we plan to perform an additional experiment to show that the Aly3 C-terminus is phosphorylated. With this result, our model will gain another experimental support.

      *Fig 3A. Further dissection did not allow to pinpoint this regulation to a specific residue, beyond the dispensability of the T586 residue. Fig 3B. The authors look at the effects of mutation of Aly3 on these sites at the protein level. They had to develop an antibody because HA-epitope tagging did not lead to a functional protein (Supp fig 2). Whereas I agree that the mutations causing a phenotype lead to a change in the migration pattern, I disagree with the statement that "This observation indicated that slower migrating bands were phosphorylated species of Aly3" (p.9 l.271). First, lack of phosphorylation usually causes a slower mobility on gel, which is not clear to spot here. Second, a smear appears on top of the mutated proteins (eg. 4th Ala) which is possibly caused by another modification. There are many precedents in the literature about arrestins being ubiquitinated when they are not phosphorylated (see the work on Bul1, Rod1, Csr2 in baker's yeast from various labs). My gut feeling is that lack of phosphorylation unleashes Aly3 ubiquitination leading to change in pattern. All in all, it is impossible to state about the phosphorylation of a protein without addressing its phosphorylation properly by phosphatase treatment + change in migration, or MS/MS. Thus, whereas the data looks promising, this hypothesis that Aly3 is phosphorylated at the indicated sites is not properly demonstrated.

      We disagree with the reviewer's opinion that a lack of phosphorylation usually causes slower mobility on gel. There are many examples in which phosphorylation causes slower mobility on gel, including budding yeast Rod1 (Alvaro et al, Genetics, 2016), and mammalian TXNIP (Wu et al, Mol Cell, 2013). In the revised manuscript, we will cite these reports to support our interpretation that the slower migrating bands are likely phosphorylated species of Aly3 (L270-271).

      Smear-like signals in Aly3(4th Ala), Aly3(4th A;A584S) and Aly3(4th A;A586T) might result from some modification, but identity of the modification is unknown. As the reviewer #2 mentioned, phosphorylation on Aly3 might negatively regulate another modification. The precedent studies revealed that budding yeast Rod1 and Rog3 arrestins tend to be ubiquitinated in snf1/AMPK-deficient cells (Becuwe et al, J Cell Biol, 2012; O'Donnell et al, Mol Cell Biol, 2015), and that Bul1 arrestin is dephosphorylated and ubiquitinated in budding yeast cells deficient in Npr1 kinase (Merhi and Andre, Mol Cell Biol, 2012). Also, budding yeast Csr2 arrestin is deubiquitinated and phosphorylated upon glucose replenishment, while non-phosphorylated Csr2 is ubiquitinated and activated by Rsp5 (Hovsepian et al, J Cell Biol, 2012). While the smear-like signals are interesting, we noticed that the smear-like signals did not necessarily correlate with cell proliferation defects in low glucose. We therefore think that clarifying the identity of the smear-like signals is beyond the scope of this study. We will discuss the smear-like signals only briefly in the revised manuscript, and would address this issue in our future work, hopefully.

      While the 4 S/T residues at the C-terminus of Aly3 as well as the other 14 S/T residues have been already shown to be phosphorylated in the precedent studies (Kettenbach et al, Mol Cell Proteomics, 2015; Tay et al, Cell Rep, 2019; Halova et al, Open Biol, 2021), we will confirm that the slower migrating Aly3 is indeed phosphorylated by phosphatase treatment in the revised manuscript. This planned experiment will further strengthen our study and support our conclusion and model.

      *Fig 4. The authors now look at the functional consequences of these mutations on ALy3 on Ght5 localisation. The data clearly shows that mutation of the 4 identified S/T residues (Aly3-4th A) causes aberrant localisation of the transporter to the vacuole, likely to cause the observed growth defect on low glucose. There is a nice correlation between the vacuolar localisation and growth in low-glucose for the various aly3 mutants. (A final proof could be to express this in the context of an endocytic mutant, which should restore membrane localisation and suppress the aly3-4thA phenotype - OPTIONAL). However, I still disagree with the statement that "These results indicate that phosphorylation of Aly3 at the C-terminal 582nd, 584th, and/or 585th serine residues is required for cell-surface localization of Ght5." given that phosphorylation was not properly demonstrated.

      While phosphorylation of the 582nd, 584th and/or 585th serine residues of Aly3 is not experimentally demonstrated in our hands, they have been shown to be phosphorylated in phospho-proteomics studies by other groups (Kettenbach et al, Mol Cell Proteomics, 2015; Tay et al, Cell Rep, 2019; Halova et al, Open Biol, 2021; Mak et al, EMBO J, 2021). Among them, the 584th serine residue (S584) was reported to be phosphorylated in a TORC2-dependent manner (Mak et al, EMBO J, 2021), consistent with our model. To explicitly demonstrate that S584 is phosphorylated, we plan to make a strain expressing a mutant Aly3 protein in which all the possible phosphorylation sites except S584 are replaced with alanine, namely Aly3(ST17A;S584). Hopefully, we can properly show the phosphorylation of S584 by measuring the mobility of the Aly3(ST17A;S584) on gel with/without phosphatase treatment or gad8 mutation.

      We thank the reviewer for suggestion of the experiment using an endocytic mutant. Previously we reported that vacuolar localization of Ght5 in gad8 mutant cells was suppressed by mutations in not only aly3 but also genes encoding ESCRT complexes (Toyoda et al, J Cell Sci, 2021). We therefore think that in cells expressing Aly3(ST18A) or Aly3(4th Ala), Ght5 is subject to endocytosis and ensuing selective transport to vacuoles via endosome-localized ESCRT complexes. We will discuss this point in the revised manuscript.

      *Fig 5. Here, the authors question the role of Aly3 mutations on Ght5 ubiquitination. They immunoprecipitate Ght5 and address its ubiquitination status in various Aly3 mutants. The data is encouraging for a role in Aly3 phosphorylation (?) in the negative control of Ght5 ubiquitination. My main problem with this experiment is that it seems that Ght5 immunoprecipitations were made in non-denaturing conditions, which leads to the question of what is the anti-ubiquitin revealing here (Ght5 or a co-immunoprecipitated protein, for example Aly3 itself, or the Pub ligases, or an unknown protein). It seems that this protocol was previously used in their previous paper, but I stand by my conclusion that ubiquitination of a given protein can only be looked in denaturing conditions. The experiments should be repeated in buffers classical for the study of protein ubiquitination to be able to conclude unambiguously that we are looking at Ght5 ubiquitination itself, especially in the absence of a non-ubiquitinable form of Ght5 as a negative control. Could the authors comment on the fact that S-A or S-D mutations display the same phenotype regarding the possible Ght5 ubiquitination?

      As mentioned above, immunoprecipitation of Ght5 in denaturating conditions is not feasible. Ght5 can be affinity-purified only in a non-denaturing condition. In addition, affinity purification in a native condition is considered as a major choice to examine its ubiquitination according to a literature by Emmerich and Cohen (Emmerich and Cohen, Biochem Biophys Res Comm, 2015). A drawback of native condition is, as the reviewer points out, that the affinity-purified fraction might include non-bait (non-Ght5) proteins. The 110 kDa band indicated by an arrow in Fig. 5A was confirmed to be Ght5, not a non-bait protein, as a band at the identical position was detected in the immunoblot with anti-GFP antibody. Because this band in the anti-GFP immunoblot was too faint to be visible in Fig. 5A of the original manuscript, we will add an additional panel showing the contrast-enhanced anti-GFP immunoblot in which the 110 kDa band is clearly visible.

      As for the result that "S-A or S-D mutations display the same phenotype regarding the possible Ght5 ubiquitination," we are afraid that the reviewer #2 misunderstood the labels of the samples. We apologize for confusing notational system of the sample name. Full description of samples is as follows; In Aly3(4th A), all of S582, S584, S585 and T586 are replaced with A; In Aly3(4th A;A584S), S582, S585 and T586 are replaced with A, whereas S584 remains intact; In Aly3(4th A;A584D), S582, S585 and T586 are replaced with A, and S584 is replaced with phospho-mimetic D. Because cells expressing Aly3(4th A;A584S) and Aly3(4th A;A584D) exhibited similarly low levels of Ght5 ubiquitination, we speculated that phosphorylation at S584 of Aly3 negatively regulates ubiquitination of Ght5.

      In the revised manuscript, we plan to add a table showing amino acid sequence of each species of Aly3 (just like Figure 3A) to avoid confusion.

      *Fig 6. The authors want to document the model whereby Aly3 may interact with some of the Nedd4 ligases (Pub1/2/3) to mediate its Ght5-ubiquitination function. They actually use the Aly3-4thA mutant, it should have been better with the WT protein. But the results indicate a clear interaction with at least Pub1 and Pub3. By the way, are the Pub1/2/3 fusions functional? Nedd4 proteins are notoriously affected in their function by C-terminal tagging and are usually tagged at their N-terminus (See Dunn et al. J Cell Biol 2004).

      We plan to test whether Pub1-myc is functional by comparing proliferation of the Pub1-myc-expressing strain and pub1Δ strain, as pub1Δ cells reportedly show proliferation defects at a high temperature (Tamai and Shimoda, J Cell Sci, 2002). As deletion of pub2 or pub3 reportedly exhibited no obvious defects (Tamai and Shimoda, J Cell Sci, 2002; Hayles et al, Open Biol, 2013), it is not easy to assess functionality of the myc-tagged genes.

      Please note that C-terminally tagged Pub1/2/3 proteins have been widely used in studies with fission yeast. Both Pub1-HA and non-tagged Pub1 were reported to be ubiquitinated (Nefsky and Beach, EMBO J, 1996; Strachan et al, J Cell Sci, 2023). Pub1-GFP, which complemented the high temperature sensitivity of pub1Δ, localized to cell surface and cytoplasmic bodies (Tamai and Shimoda, J Cell Sci, 2002). Pub2-GFP, overexpression of which arrested cell growth just like overexpression of non-tagged Pub2, localized to cell surface, and consistently Pub2-HA was detected in membrane-enriched pellet fractions after ultracentrifugation (Tamai and Shimoda, J Cell Sci, 2002). They also reported ubiquitin conjugation of the HECT domain of Pub2 fused with myc epitope at its C-terminus. Pub3-GFP localized to cell surface (Matsuyama et al, Nat Biotech, 2006).

      Regardless of functionality of the myc-tagged Pub1/2/3, we believe that results of this experiment (Figure 6) support our model, because the aim of this experiment, which is to identify the HECT-type and WW-domain containing ubiquitin ligase(s) that interact with Aly3, is irrelevant to functionality of the myc-tagged Pub proteins.

      *Fig 7. The authors want to provide genetic interaction between the Pub ligases and the growth defects in low glc due to alterations in Ght5 trafficking. It is unclear how the gad8ts pub1∆ mutant was generated since it doesn't seem to grow on regular glc concentration (Supp fig 5), could the authors provide some information about this? It is also not clear whether it can be stated thatches mutant is "more sensitive" to glc depletion because of the low level of growth to begin with (even at 3%). Altogether, the data show that deletion of pub3+ is able to suppress the growth defect of the gad8ts mutant on low glc medium, suggesting it is the relevant ligase for Ght5 endocytosis. This is confirmed by microscopy observations of Ght5 localisation. However, I would again tone down the main conclusion, which I feel is far-reaching: "Combined with physical interaction data, these results strongly suggest that Aly3 recruits Pub3, but not Pub2, for ubiquitination of Ght5." Work on Rsp5 in baker's yeast has shown that Rsp5 function goes beyond cargo ubiquitination, including ubiquitination of arrestins (which is often required for their function as mentioned in the introduction) or other endocytic proteins (epsins, amphyphysin etc). I agree that the data are compatible with this model but there are other possible explanations. Anything that would block endocytosis would supposedly suppress the gad8ts phenotype.

      gad8ts pub1Δ was produced at 26 {degree sign}C, a permissive temperature of the gad8ts mutant. While this is described in the Methods section of the original manuscript, we will mention this more clearly in the Results section of the revised manuscript.

      We did not conclude low glucose sensitivity of gad8ts pub1Δ cells in the indicated part (L376-377). Rather, we compared proliferation of gad8ts single mutant and pub1Δ single mutant cells in low glucose, and we found that the pub1Δ single mutant exhibited the higher sensitivity. In the revised manuscript we will correct the text to clarify that we compared proliferation of two single mutants (but not gad8ts pub1Δ mutant).

      We agree with the opinion that the recruited Pub3 may ubiquitinate proteins other than Ght5. In the revised manuscript, we will correct our conclusion of the Figure 7 experiment (L388-390), not to limit the possible ubiquitination target(s) to Ght5.

      In a genetic screen, we found that mutations in aly3+ and genes encoding ESCRT complexes suppressed low-glucose sensitivity and vacuolar transport of Ght5 of gad8ts mutant cells (Toyoda et al, J Cell Sci, 2021). This finding appears consistent with the reviewer's opinion that blocking endocytosis would supposedly suppress the gad8ts phenotype. We will mention this point in the revised manuscript.

      *Discussion Some analogy with the regulation of the Bul arrestins by TORC1/Npr1 and PP2A/Sit4 could be mentioned (Mehri et al. 2012), at the discretion of the authors. The possibility that phosphorylation may neutralise a basic patch on Aly3 Ct, possibly involved in electrostatic interactions with Ght5 is very interesting. Regarding the effect of the mutations on Aly3 localisation (p.15 l.498), did the authors tag Aly3 with GFP? There are examples where proteins tagged with HA are not functional whereas tagging with GFP does not alter their function (eg. Rod1, Laussel et al. 2022) - and here Supp Fig 2 only relates to HA-tagging. Proof of a change in Aly3 localisation upon mutation would definitely be a plus (OPTIONAL).

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion of a reference. In the revised manuscript, we will cite the indicated report in the corresponding part for an additional support of TORC1-mediated control of Aly3 (de)phosphorylation.

      While examining localization of Aly3 by GFP-tagging is interesting, we do not believe that it is necessary in this study. We would like to produce Aly3-GFP and to examine its functionality and localization in our future study. We thank the reviewer's insightful suggestion.

      **Minor comments.

      *Introduction: - I believe the text corresponding to the work on TXNIP is incorrect (p.5 l.127). TXNIP is degraded after its phosphorylation, not "rectracted" from the surface.

      In the revised manuscript, we will correct the text accordingly.

      • For the sake of completion, the authors could add other references concerning the regulation of Rod1 in budding yeast such as Becuwe et al. 2012 J Cell Biol and O'Donnell et al. 2015 Mol Cell Biol, in addition to Llopis-Torregrosa et al. 2016.

      In the revised manuscript, we will add the suggested references and correct the text in the corresponding part of the Introduction (L123-138).

      • Other examples of the requirement for arrestin ubiquitination beyond Art1 (p.5 l.136-137) are listed in the ref cited: Kahlhofer et al. 2021.

      We will cite the indicated review to navigate readers for more examples of arrestin ubiquitination (and transporter ubiquitination).

      *Figures: In general, I think it would be clearer if the authors showed on the figures that the background strain in which the XXX gene is added (or its mutant forms) is a xxx∆ strain.

      We will modify the figures to clearly show the genetic background of the strains used.

      **Referees cross-commenting**

      Cross review of Reviewer 1 - *I don't believe that the authors "define a set of redundant c-terminal phosphorylation sites in Aly3", because phosphorylation is not proven. *I thinks the points raised for Fig 3B are valid but the authors should focus on making their story conclusive before expanding to other data (except for the explanation of the smear, see my review). Also, I don't think 2NBDG actually works to measure Glc uptake. * same for Fig 6 - not sure the interaction site mapping between Aly3 and Pubs would bring much value since there are more urgent things to do to make the story solid.

      As mentioned above, we will experimentally show phosphorylation of the Aly3 C-terminus in the revised manuscript. Such experiments would make our story more solid and conclusive. We truly appreciate the comments and suggestions.

      We agree with the comments on difficulty of measuring glucose uptake using 2-NBDG. In fact, we tried and failed measuring Ght5-mediated glucose uptake using 2-NBDG.


      Cros review of Reviewer 3 - we have many overlaps, so briefly : *I agree that the bibliography is incomplete (mentioned in my review) *I agree that there is no demonstration of the phospho-status of Aly3, and it is a problem *I agree that the results can be better quantified, esp. in the light of the points raised by this referee concerning the variability of expression of ST18A Other specific comments : *I agree that the statement that dephosphorylation activates alpha-arresting should be toned down - this was observed in several instances but there are examples of arrestin-mediated endocytosis which does not require their prior dephosphorylation. *I fully agree that efforts could be made regarding the classification/nomenclature of arrestins in S. pombe, this had escaped my attention

      As detailed in the individual point raised by the reviewers, we will add the suggested references and accordingly correct the text in the revised manuscript.

      In addition to experimentally showing Aly3 phosphorylation, we will quantify the immunoblot result.

      Our statement that dephosphorylation activates alpha-arrestins might be too generalized. We will mention reports in which arrestin-mediated endocytosis does not require prior dephosphorylation (e.g. O'Donnell et al, Mol Biol Cell, 2010; Gournas et al, Mol Biol Cell, 2017; Savocco et al, PLoS Biol, 2019), and modify the text precisely.

      Reviewer #2 (Significance):

      *strengths and limitations This study aims at deepening our understanding of the regulation of endocytosis by signalling pathways through arrestin-like proteins in S. pombe. Ght5 is a nice model to study a physiological regulation, and the authors have a great set of tools at hand, including the discovery of Aly3 as the main arrestin for this regulation, and a signalling pathway (TORC2/Gad8) acting upstream. The main question is now to understand at the mechanistic level how TORC2 signaling impinges on the regulation of this arrestin.

      Overall, the authors nicely demonstrate that C-terminal Ser/Thr residues are crucial for the function of Aly3 in Ght5 endocytosis. They propose a model whereby Aly3 phosphorylation by an unknownn kinase inhibits its function on Ght5 ubiquitination, which would favour its endocytosis. However, I think the conclusions are not always rigorous and the conclusions are sometimes far-reaching. The main problem is that much of the conclusions concern a potential phosphorylation of Aly3 which is not experimentally addressed. An additional issue is the fact that they look at Ght5 ubiquitination by co-immunoprecipitation in native conditions (or at least, it seems to me) which cannot be conclusive. Overall, I think some experiments should be performed to address (at least) these 2 points before the manuscript can be published, see detailed comments above.

      *Advance

      This study, if completed carefully, would provide among the first examples of mapping of phosphorylation sites on arrestins, which are usually phosphorylated at many sites and are thus difficult to study. Few studies went down to this level in this respect (see Ivshov et al. eLife 2020). There are no changes in paradigms or new conceptual insights, but this work is a nice example of the conservation of these regulatory mechanisms.

      We appreciate that this study is highly evaluated by this reviewer. We understand the main problems raised by the reviewer, and as we detailed above, we plan to perform an experiment and make explanation to respond to the problems. With the raised issues answered, we believe that conclusions of the revised manuscript will be more rigorous.

      Our study reveals mechanisms regulating vacuolar transport of the Ght5 hexose transporter via the TORC2 pathway in fission yeast. The serine residues at the Aly3 C-terminus (582nd, 584th and 585th serine residues), which are probably phosphorylated in a manner dependent on the TORC2 pathway, are required for sustained Ght5 localization to cell surface and cellular adaptation to low glucose. To our knowledge, there is no such study, and thus we think that this study is novel. By responding to the reviewers' comments and adding new data as explained above, the revised manuscript will be able to present novelty of our study more clearly. Comparison of our study in fission yeast to related studies in other model organisms may reveal the conservation and diversity of these regulatory mechanisms.

      *Audience Should be of interest for people studying basic research in the field of cell biology, signalling pathways, transporter regulation by physiology. Reviewer background is on the regulation of transporter endocytosis by signalling pathways and arrestin-like proteins.

      Reviewer #3 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity): (Authors' response in blue)

      In this manuscript, the authors work to address how phospho-regulation of a-arrestin Aly3 in S. pombe regulates the glucose transporter Ght5. The authors use a series of phospho-mutants in Aly3 and assess function of these mutants using growth assays and localization of Ght5. My main concerns with the manuscript are that 1) there is a lack of appreciation for the similar work that has been done in S. cerevisiae to define a-arrestin phospho-regulation, which is evidenced by the severe lack of referencing throughout the document, 2) the sites mutated on Aly3 are not demonstrated to change phospho-status of Aly3 and so all interpretations of these mutants need to be better contextualized and 3) almost none of the findings are quantified (imaging or immunoblots) making it difficult to assess the rigor of the outcomes. More detailed comments are provided below.

      We thank the reviewer for thorough reading of the manuscript and the detailed comments. As explained below, we will respond to the points raised by the reviewer and accordingly modify the manuscript.

      Minor Comments

      Immunoblotting or immunostaining to define the levels and localization of phospho-mutants - In Figure 1, an immunoblot or immunostaining to define the abundance/localization of WT Ght5 vs its ST11A mutant would be appreciated. It is very difficult to know if ST11A is as functional as WT or not without an assessment of the levels and localization of the WT and mutant proteins to accompany the spot assays. Perhaps a version of Ght5 that is a phospho-mimetic would be more useful here as well since that version should not be dephosphorylated and then presumably would be internalized and not allow for growth on low glucose medium.

      We plan to add fluorescence microscopy data of WT Ght5 and Ght5(ST11A) in the revised manuscript, to compare the localization and abundance of these two Ght5 species. In our preliminary observation, those of two Ght5 species seemed to be indistinguishable.

      We'd like to emphasize that the primary aim of this study is to reveal mechanisms regulating Ght5 localization and consequently ensuring cell proliferation in low glucose. While analyzing a phospho-mimetic Ght5 mutant (e.g. Ght5(ST11D)) is interesting in terms of understanding of the nature of Ght5, we believe that such an analysis is out of the scope on this study. As Ght5(ST11A)-expressing cells proliferated comparably to Ght5(WT)-expressing cells and WT and ST11A Ght5 indistinguishably localize on the cell surface, phosphorylation of the ST residues of Ght5 is not likely to be the primary mechanism regulating Ght5 localization and function. We would like to assess a phospho-mimetic Ght5 mutant protein in our future studies.

      For the Aly3 mutants where the abundance of Aly3 appears lower via immunoblotting (i.e., 4thA-A582S or S582A) how is the near perfect functional readout explained when the levels of the protein are much lower than WT? For the ST18A mutant, this is a particularly important point since the authors indicate on lines 194-197 that based on the functional data for ST18A, some of these ST residues are needed for phospho-regulation of Aly3. However, in Figure 3B the authors clearly show that there is very little ST18A protein in cells, and so these mutations have impacted Aly3 stability, which may or may not be linked to its phospho-status. The authors should be upfront about this finding on lines 194-197 and should not present this phospho-model as the only reason for why ST18A may not be functional. On lines 265-276 for the authors indicate that ST18A is expressed equivalently to WT Aly3, which is just not the case in Figure 3B. Perhaps quantification of replicate data would help clarify this issue. Further, if the authors wish to conclude that the upper MW bands in Figure 3B are due to phosphorylation, perhaps they should perform phosphatase treatments of their extracts to collapse these bands. However, most certainly the overall abundance of the single band for ST18A is reduced compared to the total bands of WT Aly3.

      We disagree with the opinion that the levels of the mutant Aly3 are much lower than WT. For semi-quantitative measurement of the protein abundance, 2-fold dilution series of the WT Aly3 sample were loaded in the leftmost 3 lanes of Figure 3B. Although the levels of Aly3(4th A;A582S), Aly3(S582A) and Aly3(ST18A) were lower than that of WT Aly3, those are 50% or more of the WT, judging from the intensities of the serially-diluted WT samples. To clearly show that the expression of these Aly3 proteins is within comparable levels, we plan to add a column chart of the quantified expression levels and to mention abundances of the Aly3 proteins more quantitatively in the revised text. We do not think that replicate data (of Western blots as in Figure 3B) helps clarify this issue, because nmt1 promoter-driven gene transcription is induced with a small variation (Forsburg, Nuc Acid Res, 1993). We will cite this report and mention this point in the revised text.

      We are afraid that this reviewer seems to consider that Aly3(ST18A) is not functional, but it is not a case and we do not intend to claim so. While deletion of aly3 did not interfere with cell proliferation in low glucose (see vector controls in Figures 2B, 2C and 3A, -Thiamine), expression of the ST18A mutant clearly hinders cell proliferation in low glucose, indicating that the ST18A performs dominant negative function to inhibit cell proliferation. That is, even though the expression level and/or stability of the ST18A is reduced, it is still sufficiently abundant to perform the dominant negative function. We propose the phospho-model not due to dysfunctionality of ST18A, but its dominant negative functionality. The 18 S/T residues of Aly3, which are shown to be phosphorylated in precedent phospho-proteomics studies, seem to be required to down-regulate Aly3's function to inhibit cell proliferation in low glucose. We apologize for this confusion, and we will modify the text and figures to clarify these points in the revised manuscripts.

      To obtain an experimental support for our description that the slower migrating bands in Figure 3B are due to phosphorylation, we plan to perform a phosphatase treatment experiment as suggested.

      Figure 2A - how do the phosphorylation sites identified in Aly3 compare to those identified in Rod1 from S. cerevisiae? See PMID 26920760 or SGD for more information. I am confused as to why the Aly3 protein has an arrowhead at the C-terminus. What does this denote?

      We will mention reported phosphorylation sites of Aly3 and budding yeast Rod1/Art4 in the revised manuscript, by referring to the indicated report and database. It should be noted that similarity between amino acid sequences of Aly3 and S. cerevisiae Rod1 is not so high and limited in Arrestin-N and -C domains. The C-terminal half of Aly3, in which most of the potential phosphorylation sites are found, is not similar to Rod1. Thus, these sites are unlikely to be conserved between them.

      An arrowhead indicates the direction of transcription (from N to C-terminus). We will describe it explicitly in the revised figure legend.

      Figure 2 - The WT and Aly3-ST18A are expressed in S. pombe from a non-endogenous locus under the control of the Nmt1 promoter. However, are these mutants present in cells that contain WT copies of Aly3 at other genomic loci? If so, this would surely muddy the interpretations of these data as a- and b-arrestins are capable of multimerizing and the effect of multimerization on their activities can vary.

      As mentioned in L188, an aly3 deletion mutant strain (aly3Δ) was used as a host, and thus all strains harboring an nmt1-driven aly3 gene lack the endogenous aly3 gene. We will add an illustration clearly showing that the host strain lacks the endogenous aly3+ gene and modify the legend of Figure 2.

      Functional readouts for Aly3 using Ght5 localization - The reduced surface levels of Ght5 does correspond to the spot assay growth in low glucose for the various Aly3 mutants used. However, it would be useful if these assays incorporated an endocytosis inhibitor to help prevent the activities of these Aly3 plasmids to see if the transporter is retained at the PM. At the end of these mutational analyses, the authors conclude that phosphorylation of Aly3 at any of 3 sites is required for Ght5 trafficking to the vacuole in low glucose, however no experiment is done to demonstrate that these sites are phosphorylated residues. A phosphatase assay would be useful to help demonstrate that the modifications in 3B really are phosphorylation and a quantification of the phosphorylated bands in these WBs would also be useful to solidify the statement made on lines 306-309.

      We thank the reviewer for suggestion of the experiment using an endocytosis inhibitor. Previously we reported that vacuolar localization of Ght5 in gad8ts mutant cells was suppressed by mutations in not only aly3 but also genes encoding ESCRT complexes (Toyoda et al, J Cell Sci, 2021). We therefore think that, in cells expressing Aly3(ST18A) or Aly3(4th Ala), Ght5 is subject to endocytosis and subsequent selective transport to vacuoles via ESCRT complexes. We will mention these previous findings in the revised manuscript.

      As mentioned in responses to the comments above and other reviewer's, we will perform a phosphatase treatment experiment and its quantification in the revised manuscript. Here, we'd like to emphasize that these 3 sites have been shown to be phosphorylated in phospho-proteomic studies by other researchers (Kettenbach et al, Mol Cell Proteomics, 2015; Tay et al, Cell Rep, 2019; Halova et al, Open Biol, 2021; Mak et al, EMBO J, 2021), although we do not show it directly in this study.

      Phosphorylation assessments - in general, it would be good to not only build the non-phosphorylatable versions of Aly3 but also the phospho-mimetic forms.

      We produced a phospho-mimetic mutant Aly3 (i.e. Aly3(4th A;A584D)), and showed the result in Figure 5A; cells expressing Aly3(4th A;A584D) exhibited a low ubiquitination of Ght5, similarly to Aly3(WT)- and Aly3(4th A;A584S)-expressing cells. According to our experiences, replacing S/T with D/E does not necessarily mimic phosphorylation. Thus, we do not believe that systematic production of phospho-mimetic Aly3 mutants would help achieve the aim of this study.

      Pub1, 2, and 3 - It would be helpful if the authors indicated what genes Pubs 1-3 correspond to in S. cerevisiae, where Rsp5 is the predominant Ub ligase interacting with a-arrestins. Is there no ortholog of Rsp5 in S. pombe?

      Pub1, Pub2 and Pub3 are regarded as orthologs of budding yeast Rsp5, according to the fission yeast database PomBase. We will perform a homology search for these E3 proteins, and based on the result, we will add a description in the revised manuscript.

      Pub-Aly3 interactions - could the authors please comment on the reason why so very little Aly3 is copurified with Pub1 or Pub2? Can any clear conclusion be drawn about pub2 given how very little Pub2 is present in the IPs? Based on my understanding of these data I do not think that this can be cleanly interpreted. What is is the identity of the ~50kDa MW band in Figure 6 in the upper MYC detection panel?

      We do not have an accurate answer for the result that a small amount of Aly3 is copurified with Pub1 or Pub3. The Pub1/3-Aly3 interaction may be weak or transient. We will discuss this point in the revised manuscript.

      Regarding whether Aly3 interacts with Pub2, we agree with the reviewer. As described in the Results (L360-362), we could not conclude anything about Aly3-Pub2 interaction by this immunoprecipitation experiment alone. On the other hand, the genetic interaction experiment (Figure 7A) suggests that pub2+ is not involved in defects caused by the gad8ts mutation (while pub3+ and aly3+ are). By this experiment, we think that Pub2 is not a partner of Aly3.

      In the revised manuscript, we will describe that Pub2 is not a partner of Aly3 in a paragraph describing the Figure 7A experiment.

      Because the 50 kDa band found in the IP fraction of all the samples appears even in "beads only" (Figure 6), those are supposedly derived from mouse IgG dissociated from the beads used for immunoprecipitation. We will mention this in the legend of Figure 6.

      Phosphorylation and ubiquitination of a-arrestins - The paragraph from lines 123-138 is very superficial in addressing what is known about phosphorylation and ubiquitination of a-arrestins. The way this section is written, it feels misleading to the reader as it omits many of the details for regulation that would help place the current study in context. The discussion of Rod1 phosphorylation by AMPK for example, which is directly relevant to this study, is underdeveloped. I would recommend splitting this into two paragraphs and providing a more in depth, and accurate, view of the literature on this topic, with a focus on the regulation that is relevant for the ortholog of Aly3 in S. cerevisiae. For example, Rod1 phosphorylation by AMPK is greatly expanded upon in the following papers (PMID 22249293 and 25547292) and AMPK regulation of C-tail phosphorylation of a-arrestins is defined further in PMID 26920760. These references are each particularly important to compare with the current findings presented in this manuscript. Torc2 regulation ofa-arrestins is also reviewed in PMID 36149412 and references therein should be considered.

      Because the primary aim of this study is to reveal mechanisms regulating Ght5 localization in fission yeast, but not to dissect modification and regulation of α-arrestins, we decided not to get into the details of phosphorylation and ubiquitination of α-arrestins. Furthermore, although budding yeast Rod1 and Rog3 are found to be downstream of the TORC2-Ypk1 signaling in the context of internalization of the Ste2 pheromone receptor, it is not clear whether TORC2-Ypk1 signaling also regulate α-arrestin-mediated internalization of hexose transporters in budding yeast. For these reasons, we focused on limited literatures essential for interpretation of the results and omitted many references describing the details of α-arrestin regulation. However, as this reviewer commented, we realize that our decision makes the discussion superficial and misleading to the reader. We sincerely apologize for this inconvenience.

      In the revised manuscript, we will reorganize the paragraphs in the discussion and include the suggested references. Regarding budding yeast Rod1, we will cite the study reporting Ypk1-mediated phosphorylation on Rod1 in mating pheromone response via regulation of Ste2 endocytosis (Alvaro et al, Genetics, 2016). We will also mention other reports (Becuwe et al, J Cell Biol, 2012; O'Donnell et al, Mol Cell Biol, 2015) about AMPK-dependent phosphorylation of Rod1 in the corresponding part (e.g. L129-130). In addition, we will mention that Aly2, Rod1 and Rog3 α-arrestins were found downstream of the TORC2-Ypk1 signaling (Muir et al, eLife, 2014; Thorner, Biochem J, 2022).

      As a further detailed example, there is far more work done on ubiquitination of a-arrestins in S. cerevisiae than the single citation provided by the authors on line 137. The way this section is written it feels misleading. Considerable effort has been spent on defining how mono- and poly-ubiquitination regulate a-arrestins and the authors should consider the data provided in the following citations and revise the two sentences they provide in this introduction to better reflect the breadth of our understanding rather than simply indicate that the 'mechanisms that regulate functions of a-arrestisn are not fully understood'. (PMIDs 23824189; 22249293; 17028178; 28298493)

      Ubiquitination of α-arrestin itself is not the topic of this study, and physiological consequences of ubiquitination of Aly3 remain unknown. Because of these reasons, we did not describe the details of ubiquitination of α-arrestins in the original manuscript. However, we never intend to mislead the reader, and thus to avoid it, we will revise the indicated sentences and cite the suggested literatures (O'Donnell et al, J Biol Chem, 2013; Becuwe et al, J Cell Biol, 2012; Kee et al, J Biol Chem, 2006; Ho et al, Mol Biol Cell, 2017) in the revised manuscript.

      Context of the findings and lack of citations - The referencing in this manuscript is very poor as many of the key papers that report analogous findings in the budding yeast Saccharomyces cerevisiae are not cited. This oversight in citing the appropriate literature must be remedied before this manuscript can be considered further for publication. Examples of these omissions occur at the following places:

      We will modify the text and carefully cite more literatures describing analogous finding in budding yeast and other organisms in the revised manuscript. We appreciate the insightful suggestions by this reviewer. It should be noted, however, that it is not evident whether budding yeast Rod1 and Rog3 are orthologous to fission yeast Aly3. Although Rod1 and Aly3 share overlapping roles, amino acid sequence similarity of them is not high and limited only in domains which are generally conserved among α-arrestin-family proteins.

      Line 90 - The Puca and Brou citations is one example of this but the first examples come from Daniela Rotin's work looking at Rsp5 interactions in budding yeast, which is where the association between HECT-domain Ub ligases and a-arrestins is also documented by Scott Emr and Hugh Pelham's labs. Here are some PMID numbers to improve the citations of this section (PMID 17551511; 18976803; 19912579) and each of these references long predates the Puca and Brou publication.

      In the revised manuscript, we will improve the citations by including the suggested studies (Gupta et al, Mol Syst Biol, 2007; Lin et al, Cell, 2008; Nikko and Pelham, Traffic, 2009).

      Lines 123-126 - Phosphorylation can also increase vacuole-dependent degradation of alpha-arrestins as demonstrated in PMID 35454122. The interaction with 14-3-3 proteins that is driven by phosphorylation of a-arrestins was first demonstrated by the Leon group in PMID 22249293). Lines 129-132 - Here again the Leon reference that helps demonstrate the 14-3-3 inhibition of Rod1 is lacking (PMID 22249293).

      We will cite the suggested studies in description of these topics (Bowman et al, Biomolecules, 2022; Becuwe et al, J Cell Biol, 2012).

      Lines 130-132 - Please include references for the statement that dephosphorylation activates a-arrestin activity. There are no citations on this statement and there are many to choose from and I would urge the authors to cite the primary literature on these points.

      We will cite studies for the statement "Conversely, dephosphorylation is thought to activate α-arrestins and to promote selective endocytosis of transporter proteins" (L130-132).

      These are just a few examples from the Introduction, but the Discussion is similarly wrought with issues in referencing and framing the experimental results within the context of the larger field, including what is known about Rod1/Rog3 regulation in S. cerevisiae. For example, the Llopis-Torregrosa et al reference and statement on lines 508-510 is incorrect. There are other phosphorylation sites defined in the C-terminus of Rod1, as described in Alvaro et al. PMID: 26920760.

      We will carefully correct Discussion by citing the suggested references (e.g. Alvaro et al, Genetics, 2016) and framing the obtained results within the context of the larger field.

      Of note, a combination of α-arrestin, upstream kinase(s) and distinct phosphorylation sites appears to determine the target transporter (Kahlhofer et al, Biol Cell, 2021; Thorner, Biochem J, 2022), and it has not been explicitly proved that TORC2-Ypk1 signaling also regulate α-arrestin-mediated internalization of hexose transporters in budding yeast. For these reasons, we stated "S. cerevisiae Rod1 and Rog3 are phosphorylated solely by Snf1p/AMPK" in the context of internalization of hexose transporters. We will also discuss this point in the revised manuscript.

      Minor Comments Clarification needed - Lines 107-121 - The relationship between the S. pombe arrestins and those in other organisms is somewhat unclear. Frist, all the arrestins in humans and S. cerevisiae can be sorted into the alpha, beta and Vps26 classes. However, the authors indicate that the S. pombe genome has 11 arrestin-like proteins but only 4 of these are a-arrestins. What classes do the other 7 arrestins belong to? It would be appreciated if this point was clarified.

      To our knowledge, fission yeast arrestins are not well classified yet. We will perform a phylogenetic tree analysis to classify them, and modify the description of the indicated part accordingly. We will also cite our previous report (Toyoda et al, J Cell Sci, 2021), in which the overall protein structure and domains of 11 fission yeast arrestin-like proteins were reported.

      Next, for the 4 a-arrestins identified in S. pombe the authors indicate that Aly3 is the homolog of Rod1/Art4 and Rog3/Art7 from S. cerevisiae. What is the relationship of Rod1 in S. pombe to Rod1 in S. cerevisiae? Are these also homologs? You can see how the nomenclature is confusing and, given the functional overlap of S. cerevisiae Rod1/Rog3 proteins it is important to know if Aly3 is the only version of these a-arrestins or if there is an additional counterpart in S. pombe. This point becomes somewhat more confusing when on lines 134-136 the authors talk about Arn1/Any1 as an arrestin related protein in S. pombe yet this protein was not included on the list of a-arrestins in the preceding section. What class of arrestin is this protein?

      According to PomBase, both Aly3 and Rod1 are assigned as the orthologue of budding yeast Rod1 and Rog3. However, as mentioned in responses above, it is unclear whether Aly3 is really orthologous to budding yeast Rod1/Rod3. In the revised manuscript, we will perform a homology search for these 4 proteins, and add information on how much these arrestins share homology.

      Arn1/Any1 is regarded as a β-arrestin (Nakase et al, J Cell Sci, 2013). We will also mention this in the revised manuscript.

      Alpha-arrestin homology - On lines 127-129 the authors indicate that TXNIP is the mammalian homolog of Aly3. To my knowledge, there are no evolutionary analyses that can draw these lines of homology between the a-arrestins in humans and those in yeasts. It would be appreciated if the authors could cite the work that leads to this conclusion or revise the sentence to more accurately reflect what is known on this topic. It certainly appears that, given their functional overlap in regulating glucose transporters, Txnip and Rod1/Rog3 in humans and S. cerevisiae are functionally connected. I urge the authors to use more caution when describing this protein family.

      Among human α-arrestins, ARRDC2 (22%) but not TXNIP (20%) has the highest amino acid identity to Aly3 (Toyoda et al, J Cell Sci, 2021). However, as TXNIP has been reported to regulate endocytosis of hexose transporters, GLUT1 and 4 (Wu et al, Mol Cell, 2013; Waldhart et al, Cell Rep, 2017), we think that TXNIP and Aly3 share physiological roles. We will revise the sentence (L127-129) more accurately.

      Text editing - The text could use editing as there are awkward and grammatically incorrect sentences in several places. Here are a few examples to help the authors:

      Please note that the original manuscript is edited by a professional editor, who is a native English (American) speaker and has edited thousands of research papers, before initial submission. We will ask an editor to check the revised draft again before submission.

      Lines 57-60 - the protein is not expressed over the entire cell surface, but is localized to the entire cell surface.

      We will correct this wording.

      Lines 80-83 - this sentence is very confusing

      We will correct this part by changing the phrase "Unlike TORC1," into a clause.

      Line 86 - Is there more than one gene encoding Aly3 in S. pombe?

      No, there is only one gene encoding Aly3. We will correct this part so as to avoid being misunderstood.

      Line 88, 109, - these sentences need to start with a capitol so either capitalize the A in arrestin or write out Alpha with a capitol A.

      We will correct the sentence as suggested.

      Lines 145-148 - unclear as written

      We will clarify the meaning of the sentence by changing the voice.

      Line 224 - why are these amino acids being referred to as hydroxylated? Perhaps hydroxyl-containing amino acids or 18 amino acids with hydroxyl side chains would be better choices?

      We will correct the word as suggested.

      Line 300 - very confusing sentence structure

      We will correct this part by simplifying the structure of the sentence.

      And elsewhere....

      We will carefully check the revised text before submission.

      Reviewer #3 (Significance):

      The authors provide some information as to the residues needed in the Aly3 C-tail for Ght5 trafficking in S. Pombe. These results are not places in the context of similar phosphor-regulatory work done for a-arrestins in S. cerevisiae, and this is needed for appreciation of the significance of the study.

      Overall, it appears that the model put forth is very similar to the one already proposed in S. cerevisiae where phosphorylation impedes a-arrestin-mediated trafficking of glucose transporters. It is interesting to see this similarity hold in S. Pombe, but it does not dramatically alter our appreciation of a-arrestin biology.

      The significance of the findings are somewhat underscored by the fact that very little quantification of data are presented, making the rigor of the work difficult to assess.

      We thank the reviewer for careful reading and evaluation of our study. As the reviewer states, the results are not placed in the context of similar phospho-regulatory works done for α-arrestins in S. cerevisiae. This may partly come from the fact that it remains unclear whether internalization of hexose transporters is regulated by TORC2-dependent phosphorylation in S. cerevisiae. We believe that our study is novel and significant for this reason. By performing the additional experiments/quantification and revising the text as suggested by the reviewers, the manuscript will be further strengthened, and we will be able to clearly conclude that TORC2-dependent phosphorylation of Aly3 regulates localization of the Ght5 hexose transporter and cellular responses to glucose shortage stress.

    1. Author response:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary and Strengths:

      The ability of Wolbachia to be transmitted horizontally during parasitoid wasp infections is supported by phylogenetic data here and elsewhere. Experimental analyses have shown evidence of wasp-to-wasp transmission during coinfection (eg Huigins et al), host to wasp transmission (eg Heath et al), and mechanical ('dirty needle') transmission from host to host (Ahmed et al). To my knowledge this manuscript provides the first experimental evidence of wasp to host transmission. Given the strong phylogenetic pattern of host-parasitoid Wolbachia sharing, this may be of general importance in explaining the distribution of Wolbachia across arthropods. This is of interest as Wolbachia is extremely common in the natural world and influences many aspects of host biology.

      Weaknesses:

      The first observation of the manuscript is that the Wolbachia strains in hosts are more closely related to those in their parasitoids. This has been reported on multiple occasions before, dating back to the late 1990s. The introduction cites five such papers (the observation is made in other studies too that could be cited) but then dismisses them by stating "However, without quantitative tests, this observation could simply reflect a bias in research focus." As these studies include carefully collected datasets that were analysed appropriately, I felt this claim of novelty was rather strong. It is unclear why downloading every sequence in GenBank avoids any perceived biases, when presumably the authors are reanalysing the data in these papers.

      Thank you for bringing this to our attention, and we will make the necessary amendments in our revised manuscript.

      I do not doubt the observation that host-parasitoid pairs tend to share related Wolbachia, as it is corroborated by other studies, the effect size is large, and the case study of whitefly is clearcut. It is also novel to do this analysis on such a large dataset. However, the statistical analysis used is incorrect as the observations are pseudo-replicated due to phylogenetic non-independence. When analysing comparative data like this it is essential to correct for the confounding effects of related species tending to be similar due to common ancestry. In this case, it is well-known that this is an issue as it is a repeated observation that related hosts are infected by related Wolbachia. However, the authors treat every pairwise combination of species (nearly a million pairs) as an independent observation. Addressing this issue is made more complex because there are both the host and symbiont trees to consider. The additional analysis in lines 123-124 (including shuffling species pairs) does not explicitly address this issue.

      We concur with your observation regarding the non-independence of the data due to phylogenetic relationships. While common phylogenetic correction methods are indeed not directly applicable to wsp distances between species pairs, we are investigating the potential of phylogenetic mixed models to address this issue. We hope to include a revised analysis using this approach in our revised manuscript.

      The sharing of Wolbachia between whitefly and their parasitoids is very striking, although this has been reported before (eg the authors recently published a paper entitled "Diversity and Phylogenetic Analyses Reveal Horizontal Transmission of Endosymbionts Between Whiteflies and Their Parasitoids"). In Lines 154-164 it is suggested that from the tree the direction of transfer between host and parasitoid can be inferred from the data. This is not obvious to me given the poor resolution of the tree due to low sequence divergence. There are established statistical approaches to test the direction of trait changes on a tree that could have been used (a common approach is to use the software BEAST).

      Thank you for your insightful comments regarding the transfer direction of Wolbachia between whiteflies and their parasitoids. We acknowledge the concern about the resolution of the phylogenetic tree and the inference of the direction of Wolbachia transmission based on the available data. We considered the high infection frequency and obligate nature of Wolbachia in En. formosa, which exhibits a 100% infection rate, as a strong indicator that recent transmission of Wolbachia in this clade likely occurred from En. formosa to B. tabaci. We appreciate your recommendation and will ensure that our conclusions are supported by a more statistically sound approach. As you suggested, we will employ the software BEAST to rigorously test the direction of transmission, and we will revise our statements accordingly.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      The paper by Yan et al. aims to provide evidence for horizontal transmission of the intracellular bacterial symbiont Wolbachia from parasitoid wasps to their whitefly hosts. In my opinion, the paper in its current form consists of major flaws.

      Weaknesses:

      The dogma in the field is that although horizontal transmission events of Wolbachia occur, in most systems they are so rare that the chances of observing them in the lab are very slim.

      For the idea of bacteria moving from a parasitoid to its host, the authors have rightfully cited the paper by Hughes, et al. (2001), which presents the main arguments against the possibility of documenting such transmissions. Thus, if the authors want to provide data that contradict the large volume of evidence showing the opposite, they should present a very strong case.

      In my opinion, the paper fails to provide such concrete evidence. Moreover, it seems the work presented does not meet the basic scientific standards.

      We are grateful for your critical perspective on our work. Nonetheless, we are confident in the credibility of our findings regarding the horizontal transmission of Wolbachia from En. formosa to B. tabaci. Our study has documented this phenomenon through phylogenetic tree analyses, and we have further substantiated our observations with rigorous experiments in both cages and petri dishes. The horizontal transfer of Wolbachia was confirmed via PCR, with the wsp sequences in B. tabaci showing complete concordance with those in En. formosa. Additionally, we utilized FISH, vertical transmission experiments, and phenotypic assays to demonstrate that the transferred Wolbachia could be vertically transmitted and induce significant fitness cost in B. tabaci. All experiments were conducted with strict negative controls and a sufficient number of replicates to ensure reliability, thereby meeting basic scientific standards. The collective evidence we present points to a definitive case of Wolbachia transmission from the parasitoid En. formosa to the whitefly B. tabaci.

      My main reservations are:

      • I think the distribution pattern of bacteria stained by the probes in the FISH pictures presented in Figure 4 looks very much like Portiera, the primary symbiont found in the bacterium of all whitefly species. In order to make a strong case, the authors need to include Portiera probes along with the Wolbachia ones.

      We are very grateful for your critical evaluation regarding the specificity of FISH in our study. We assure the reliability of our FISH results based on several reasons.

      1) We implemented rigorous negative controls which exhibited no detectable signal, thereby affirming the specificity of our hybridization. 2) The central region of the whitefly nymphs is a typical oviposition site for En. formosa. Post-parasitism, we observed FISH signals around the introduced parasitoid eggs, distinct from bacteriocyte cells which are rich in endosymbionts including Portiera (FIG 3e-f). This observation supports the high specificity of our FISH method. 3) In the G3 whiteflies, we detected the presence of Wolbachia in bacteriocytes in nymphs and at the posterior end of eggs in adult females (FIG 4). This distribution pattern aligns with previously reported localizations of Wolbachia in B. tabaci (Shi et al., 2016; Skaljac et al., 2013). Furthermore, the distribution of Wolbachia in the whiteflies does indeed exhibit some overlap with that of Portiera (Skaljac et al., 2013; Bing et al., 2014). 4) The primers used in our FISH assays have been widely cited (Heddi et al., 1999) and validated in studies on B. tabaci and other systems (Guo et al., 2018; Hegde et al., 2024; Krafsur et al., 2020; Rasgon et al., 2006; Uribe-Alvarez et al., 2019; Zhao et al., 2013). Taking all these points into consideration, we stand by the reliability of our FISH results.

      References:

      Bing XL, Xia WQ, Gui JD, Yan GH, Wang XW, Liu SS. 2014. Diversity and evolution of the Wolbachia endosymbionts of Bemisia (Hemiptera: Aleyrodidae) whiteflies. Ecol Evol, 4(13): 2714-37.

      Guo, Y, Hoffmann, AA, Xu, XQ, Zhang X, Huang HJ, Ju JF, Gong JT, Hong XY. 2018. Wolbachia-induced apoptosis associated with increased fecundity in Laodelphax striatellus (Hemiptera: Delphacidae). Insect Mol Biol, 27: 796-807.

      Heddi A, Grenier AM, Khatchadourian C, Charles H, Nardon P. 1999. Four intracellular genomes direct weevil biology: Nuclear, mitochondrial, principal endosymbiont, and Wolbachia. Proc Natl Acad Sci USA, 96: 6814-6819.

      Hegde S, Marriott AE, Pionnier N, Steven A, Bulman C, Gunderson E, et al. 2024. Combinations of the azaquinazoline anti-Wolbachia agent, AWZ1066S, with benzimidazole anthelmintics synergise to mediate sub-seven-day sterilising and curative efficacies in experimental models of filariasis. Front Microbiol, 15: 1346068.

      Krafsur AM, Ghosh A, Brelsfoard CL. 2020. Phenotypic response of Wolbachia pipientis in a cell-free medium. Microorganisms, 8: 1060.

      Rasgon JL, Gamston, CE, Ren X. 2006. Survival of Wolbachia pipientis in cell-free medium. Appl Environ Microbiol, 72: 6934-6937.

      Shi P, He Z, Li S, An X, Lv N, Ghanim M, Cuthbertson AGS, Ren SX, Qiu BL. 2016. Wolbachia has two different localization patterns in whitefly Bemisia tabaci AsiaII7 species. PLoS One, 11: e0162558.

      Skaljac M, Zanić K, Hrnčić S, Radonjić S, Perović T, Ghanim M. 2013. Diversity and localization of bacterial symbionts in three whitefly species (Hemiptera: Aleyrodidae) from the east coast of the Adriatic Sea. Bull Entomol Res, 103(1): 48-59.

      Uribe-Alvarez C, Chiquete-Félix N, Morales-García L, Bohórquez-Hernández A, Delgado-Buenrostro N L, Vaca L, et al. 2019. Wolbachia pipientis grows in Saccharomyces cerevisiae evoking early death of the host and deregulation of mitochondrial metabolism. MicrobiologyOpen, 8: e00675.

      Zhao DX, Zhang XF, Chen DS, Zhang YK, Hong XY, 2013. Wolbachia-host interactions: Host mating patterns affect Wolbachia density dynamics. PLoS One, 8: e66373.

      • If I understand the methods correctly, the phylogeny presented in Figure 2a is supposed to be based on a wide search for Wolbachia wsp gene done on the NCBI dataset (p. 348). However, when I checked the origin of some of the sequences used in the tree to show the similarity of Wolbachia between Bemisia tabaci and its parasitoids, I found that most of them were deposited by the authors themselves in the course of the current study (I could not find this mentioned in the text), or originated in a couple of papers that in my opinion should not have been published to begin with.

      We appreciate your meticulous examination of the sources for our sequence data. All the sequences included in our phylogenetic analysis were indeed downloaded from the NCBI database as of July 2023. The sequences used to illustrate the similarity of Wolbachia between B. tabaci and its parasitoids include those from our previously published study (Qi et al., 2019), which were sequenced from field samples. Additionally, some sequences were also obtained from other laboratories (Ahmed et al., 2009; Baldo et al., 2006; Van Meer et al., 1999). We acknowledge that in our prior research (Qi et al., 2019), the sequences were directly submitted to NCBI and, regrettably, we did not update the corresponding publication information after the article were published. It is not uncommon for sequences on NCBI, with some never being followed by a published paper (e.g., FJ710487- FJ710511 and JF426137-JF426149), or not having their associated publication details updated post-publication (for instance, sequences MH918776-MH918794 from Qi et al., 2019, and KF017873-KF017878 from Fattah-Hosseini et al., 2018). We recognize that this practice can lead to confusion and apologize for the oversight in our work.

      References:

      Ahmed MZ, Shatters RG, Ren, SX, Jin GH, Mandour NS, Qiu BL. 2009. Genetic distinctions among the Mediterranean and Chinese populations of Bemisia tabaci Q biotype and their endosymbiont Wolbachia populations. J Appl Entomol, 133: 733-741.

      Baldo L, Hotopp JCD, Jolley KA, Bordenstein SR, Biber SA, Choudhury RR, et al. 2006. Multilocus sequence typing system for the endosymbiont Wolbachia pipientis. Appl Environ Microbiol, 72: 7098-110.

      Fattah-Hosseini S, Karimi J, Allahyari H. 2014. Molecular characterization of Iranian Encarsia formosa Gahan populations with natural incidence of Wolbachia infection. J Entomol Res Soc, 20: 85–100.

      Qi LD, Sun JT, Hong XY, Li YX. 2019. Diversity and phylogenetic analyses reveal horizontal transmission of endosymbionts between whiteflies and their parasitoids. J Econ Entomol, 112(2): 894-905.

      Van Meer MM, Witteveldt J, Stouthamer R. 1999. Phylogeny of the arthropod endosymbiont Wolbachia based on the wsp gene. Insect Mol Biol, 8: 399-408.

      • The authors fail to discuss or even acknowledge a number of published studies that specifically show no horizontal transmission, such as the one claimed to be detected in the study presented.

      Thank you for bringing this to our attention. We will address and discuss the published studies that report no evidence of horizontal transmission, as you've highlighted, in the revised version of our manuscript.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      This is a very ordinary research paper. The horizontal of endosymbionts, including Wolbachia, Rickettsia etc. has been reported in detail in the last 10 years, and parasitoid vectored as well as plant vectored horizontal transmission is the mainstream of research. For example, Ahmed et al. 2013 PLoS One, 2015 PLoS Pathogens, Chiel et al. 2014 Enviromental Entomology, Ahmed et al. 2016 BMC Evolution Biology, Qi et al. 2019 JEE, Liu et al. 2023 Frontiers in Cellular and Infection Microbiology, all of these reported the parasitoid vectored horizontal transmission of endosymbiont. While Caspi-Fluger et al. 2012 Proc Roy Soc B, Chrostek et al. 2017 Frontiers in Microbiology, Li et al. 2017 ISME Journal, Li et al. 2017 FEMS, Shi et al. 2024 mBio, all of these reported the plant vectored horizontal transmission of endosymbiont. For the effects of endosymbiont on the biology of the host, Ahmed et al. 2015 PLoS Pathogens explained the effects in detail.

      Thank you very much for your insightful comments and for highlighting the relevant literature in the field of horizontal transmission of endosymbionts, including Wolbachia and Rickettsia. After careful consideration of the studies you have mentioned, we believe that our work presents significant novel contributions to the field. 1) Regarding the parasitoid-mediated horizontal transmission of Wolbachia, most of the cited articles, such as Ahmed et al. 2013 in PLoS One and Ahmed et al. 2016 in BMC Evolutionary Biology, propose hypotheses but do not provide definitive evidence. The transmission of Wolbachia within the whitefly cryptic species complex (Ahmed et al. 2013) or between moths and butterflies (Ahmed et al. 2016) could be mediated by parasitoids, plants, or other unknown pathways. 2) Chiel et al. (2014 in Environmental Entomology reported “no evidence for horizontal transmission of Wolbachia between and within trophic levels” in their study system. 3) The literature you mentioned about Rickettsia, rather than Wolbachia, indirectly reflects the relative scarcity of evidence for Wolbachia horizontal transmission. For example, the evidence for plant-mediated transmission of Wolbachia remains isolated, with Li et al. 2017 in The ISME Journal being one of the few reports supporting this mode of transmission. 4) While the effects of endosymbionts on their hosts are not the central focus of our study, the effects of transgenerational Wolbachia on whiteflies are primarily demonstrated to confirm the infection of Wolbachia into whiteflies. Furthermore, the effects we report of Wolbachia on whiteflies are notably different from those reported by Ahmed et al. 2015 in PLoS Pathogens, likely due to different whitefly species and Wolbachia strains. 6) More importantly, our study reveals a mechanism of parasitoid-mediated horizontal transmission of Wolbachia that is distinct from the mechanical transmission suggested by Ahmed et al. 2015 in PLoS Pathogens. Their study implies transmission primarily through host-feeding contamination, without the need for Wolbachia to infect the parasitoid, suggesting host-to-host transmission at the same trophic level. In contrast, our findings demonstrate transmission from parasitoids to hosts through unsuccessful parasitism, which represents cross-trophic level transmission. To our knowledge, this is the first experimental evidence that Wolbachia can be transmitted from parasitoids to hosts. We believe these clarifications and the novel insights provided by our research contribute valuable knowledge to the field.

      References:

      Ahmed MZ, De Barro PJ, Ren SX, Greeff JM, Qiu BL. 2013. Evidence for horizontal transmission of secondary endosymbionts in the Bemisia tabaci cryptic species complex. PLoS One, 8: e53084.

      Ahmed MZ, Li SJ, Xue X, Yin XJ, Ren SX, Jiggins FM, Greeff JM, Qiu BL. 2015. The intracellular bacterium Wolbachia uses parasitoid wasps as phoretic vectors for efficient horizontal transmission. PLoS Pathog, 10: e1004672.

      Ahmed MZ, Breinholt JW, Kawahara AY. 2016. Evidence for common horizontal transmission of Wolbachia among butterflies and moths. BMC Evol Biol, 16: 118. doi.org/10.1186/s12862-016-0660-x.

      Caspi-Fluger A, Inbar M, Mozes-Daube N, Katzir N, Portnoy V, Belausov E, Hunter MS, Zchori-Fein E. 2012. Horizontal transmission of the insect symbiont Rickettsia is plant-mediated. Proc Biol Sci, 279(1734): 1791-6.

      Chiel E, Kelly SE, Harris AM, Gebiola M, Li X, Zchori-Fein E, Hunter MS. 2014. Characteristics, phenotype, and transmission of Wolbachia in the sweet potato whitefly, Bemisia tabaci (Hemiptera: Aleyrodidae), and its parasitoid Eretmocerus sp. nr. emiratus (Hymenoptera: Aphelinidae). Environ Entomol, 43(2): 353-62.

      Chrostek E, Pelz-Stelinski K, Hurst GDD, Hughes GL. 2017. Horizontal transmission of intracellular insect symbionts via plants. Front Microbiol, 8: 2237.

      Li SJ, Ahmed MZ, Lv N, Shi PQ, Wang XM, Huang JL, Qiu BL. 2017. Plantmediated horizontal transmission of Wolbachia between whiteflies. ISME J, 11: 1019-1028.

      Li YH, Ahmed MZ, Li SJ, Lv N, Shi PQ, Chen XS, Qiu BL. 2017. Plant-mediated horizontal transmission of Rickettsia endosymbiont between different whitefly species. FEMS Microbiol Ecol, 93(12). doi: 10.1093/femsec/fix138.

      Liu Y, He ZQ, Wen Q, Peng J, Zhou YT, Mandour N, McKenzie CL, Ahmed MZ, Qiu BL. 2023. Parasitoid-mediated horizontal transmission of Rickettsia between whiteflies. Front Cell Infect Microbiol, 12: 1077494. DOI: 10.3389/fcimb.2022.1077494

      Qi LD, Sun JT, Hong XY, Li YX. 2019. Diversity and phylogenetic analyses reveal horizontal transmission of endosymbionts between whiteflies and their parasitoids. J Econ Entomol, 112: 894-905.

      Shi PQ, Wang L, Chen XY, Wang K, Wu QJ, Turlings TCJ, Zhang PJ, Qiu BL. 2024. Rickettsia transmission from whitefly to plants benefits herbivore insects but is detrimental to fungal and viral pathogens. mBio, 15(3): e0244823.

      Weaknesses:

      In the current study, the authors downloaded the MLST or wsp genes from a public database and analyzed the data using other methods, and I think the authors may not be familiar with the research progress in the field of insect symbiont transmission, and the current stage of this manuscript lacking sufficient novelty.

      We appreciate your critical perspective on our study. However, we respectfully disagree with the viewpoint that our manuscript lacks sufficient novelty.

    1. Author response:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, the authors intended to prove that gut GLP-1 expression and secretion can be regulated by Piezo1, and hence by mechanistic/stretching regulation. For this purpose, they have assessed Piezo1 expression in STC-1 cell line (a mouse GLP-1 producing cell line) and mouse gut, showing the correlation between Piezo1 level and Gcg levels (Figure S1). They then aimed to generate gut L cell-specific Piezo1 KO mice, and claimed the mice show impaired glucose tolerance and GLP-1 production, which can be mitigated by Ex-4 treatment (Figures 1-2). Pharmacological agents (Yoda1 and GsMTx4) and mechanic activation (intestinal bead implantation) were then utilized to prove the existence of ileal Piezo1-regulated GLP-1 synthesis (Figure 3). This was followed by testing such mechanism in a limited amount of primary L cells and mainly in the STC-1 cell line (Figures 4-7).

      While the novelty of the study is somehow appreciable, the bio-medical significance is not well demonstrated in the manuscript. The authors stated (in lines between lines 78-83) a number of potential side effects of GLP-1 analogs, how can the mechanistic study of GLP-1 production on its own be essential for the development of new drug targets for the treatment of diabetes. Furthermore, the study does not provide a clear mechanistic insight on how the claimed CaMKKbeta/CaMKIV-mTORC1 signaling pathway upregulated both GLP-1 production and secretion. This reviewer also has concerns about the experimental design and data presented in the current manuscript, including the issue of how proglucagon expression can be assessed by Western blotting.

      Strengths:

      The novelty of the concept.

      Weaknesses:

      Experimental design and key experiment information.

      Current GLP-1-based therapies for diabetes use GLP-1 agonists/analogs. Although generally safe, there are some side effect or risks of GLP-1 agonists/analogs. We agree to the reviewer that a mechanistic study on the regulation of GLP-1 production will not directly lead to development of new drug targets for the treatment of diabetes. However, understanding the mechanism of GLP-1 production may shed light onto alternative treatment strategies for diabetes that targeting the production of GLP-1. In our previous studies, we have elucidated the role of mTOR/S6K pathway in regulating GLP-1 production in L cells. Using STC-1 cell line and different mouse models, including Neurog3-Tsc1−/− mice, rapamycin or L-lucine treatment to stimulate mTOR activity, we have demonstrated that mTOR stimulates proglucagon gene expression and thus GLP-1 production (Diabetologia 2015;58(8):1887-97; Mol Cell Endocrinol. 2015 Nov 15:416:9-18.). Based on our previous studies, we found that Piezo1 regulated mTOR/S6K pathway and thus proglucagon expression and GLP-1 production through Ca2+/CaMKKbeta/CaMKIV in our present study. Although we could not exclude involvement of other signaling pathways downstream of Piezo1 in regulating the cleavage of proglucagon, granule maturation and the final release of GLP-1, our present study provided evidence to support the involvement of the Ca2+/CaMKKbeta/CaMKIV/mTOR pathway in mediating the role Piezo1 in proglucagon expression and GLP-1 production. The reviewer also expressed concerns on the use of western blot to detect proglucagon expression. In fact, western blot is often used in detection of proglucagon. Here are some examples from other researchers: Diabetes. 2013 Mar;62(3):789-800. Gastroenterology. 2011 May;140(5):1564-74. 2004 Jul 23;279(30):31068-75. The proglucagon antibody we used in our study was purchased from abcam (Cat#ab23468), which can detect proglucagon of 21 kDa.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The study by Huang and colleagues focuses on GLP-1 producing entero-endocrine (EEC) L-cells and their regulation of GLP-1 production by a mechano-gated ion channel Piezo1. The study describes Piezo1 expression by L-cells and uses an exciting intersectional mouse model (villin to target epithelium and Gcg to target GLP-1-producing cells and others like glucagon-producing pancreatic endocrine cells), which allows L-cell specific Piezo1 knockout. Using this model, they find an impairment of glucose tolerance, increased body weight, reduced GLP-1 content, and changes to the CaMKKbeta-CaMKIV-mTORC1 signaling pathway using a normal diet and then high-fat diet. Piezo1 chemical agonist and intestinal bead implantation reversed these changes and improved the disrupted phenotype. Using primary sorted L-cells and cell model STC-1, they found that stretch and Piezo1 activation increased GLP-1 and altered the molecular changes described above.

      Strengths:

      This is an interesting study testing a novel hypothesis that may have important mechanistic and translational implications. The authors generated an important intersectional genetics mouse model that allowed them to target Piezo1 L-cells specifically, and the surprising result of impaired metabolism is intriguing.

      Weaknesses:

      However, there are several critical limitations that require resolution before making the conclusions that the authors make.

      (1) A potential explanation for the data, and one that is consistent with existing literature [see for example, PMC5334365, PMC4593481], is that epithelial Piezo1, which is broadly expressed by the GI epithelium, impacts epithelial cell density and survival, and as such, if Piezo1 is involved in L-cell physiology, it may be through regulation of cell density. Thus, it is critical to determine L-cell densities and epithelial integrity in controls and Piezo1 knockouts systematically across the length of the gut, since the authors do not make it clear which gut region contributes to the phenotype they see. Current immunohistochemistry data are not convincing.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment. We agree that Piezo1 may affect L-cell density and epithelial integrity. We will do quantification of L-cell density and test the epithelial integrity by examining the expression of tight junction proteins (ZO-1 and Occludin) and determine the transepithelial resistance in different regions of the gut

      (2) Calcium signaling in L-cells is implicated in their typical role of being gut chemo-sensors, and Piezo1 is a calcium channel, so it is not clear whether any calcium-related signaling mechanism would phenocopy these results.

      We will examine whether other calcium-related signaling mechanism also contribute the phenotype seen in the IntL-Piezo1-/- mice.

      (3) Intestinal bead implantation, while intriguing, does not have clear mechanisms - and is likely to provide a point of intestinal obstruction and dysmotility.

      To ascertain if intestinal bead implantation led to intestinal obstruction and dysmotility, we conducted a bowel transit time test. The results revealed no difference in bowel transit time between the sham-operated mice and those implanted with beads.

      (4) Previous studies, some that are very important, but not cited, contradict the presented results (e.g., epithelial Piezo1 role in insulin secretion) and require reconciliation.

      Overall, this study makes an interesting observation but the data are not currently strong enough to support the conclusions.

      We will cite more previous studies on GLP-1 production and discuss the discrepancy between our study and others’ studies. The lack of changes in blood glucose seen in Villin-Piezo1-/- mice reported by Sugisawa et. al. is not surprising (Cell. 2020 Aug 6;182(3):609-624.e21.). Actually, in another recent study from our group, we found similar results when the Villin-Piezo1-/- mice Piezo1fl/fl control mice were fed with normal chow diet. Since Villin-1 is expressed in all the epithelial cells of the gut, including enterocytes and various types of endocrine cells, the effect of L-cell Piezo1 loss may be masked by other cell types under normal condition. However, impair glucose tolerance was seen in Villin-Piezo1-/- mice compared to the Piezo1fl/fl control mice after high fat diet for 8 weeks. We further found that Piezo1 in enterocytes exerted a negative effect on the glucose and lipid absorption. Loss of Piezo1 in enterocytes led to over-absorption of nutrients under high-fat diet (Tian Tao, Qing Shu, Yawen Zhao, Wenying Guo, Jinting Wang, Yuhao Shi, Shiqi Jia, Hening Zhai, Hui Chen, Cunchuan Wang*, Geyang Xu*, Mechanical regulation of lipid and sugar absorption by Piezo1 in enterocytes, Acta Pharmaceutica Sinica B , Accepted, 2024,https://doi.org/10.1016/j.apsb.2024.04.016).

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      …I find the concept and execution of the study very interesting and elegant. The paper is also commendably clear and readable. The differences between primary and higher cortex are compelling and I am largely convinced by the authors' claim that they have found evidence that broadly supports a mixed selectivity model of neural disentanglement along the lines of Rigotti et al (2013). I think that the increasing body of evidence for these kinds of representations is a significant development in our understanding of higher sensory representations. I also think that the dDR method is likely to be useful to researchers in a variety of fields who are looking to perform similar types of neural decoding analysis.

      Thanks! We agree that questions around population coding and high-level representations are critical in the field of sensory systems.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      ... This is a well-carried out study with thoughtful analyses which in large part achieves its aims to evaluate how task-engagement changes neural activity across multiple auditory regions. As with all work, there are several caveats or areas for future study/analysis. First, the sounds used here (tones, and narrow-band noise) are relatively simple sounds; previous work suggests that exactly what activity is observed within each region (e.g., sensory only, decision-related, etc) may depend in part upon what stimuli are used. Therefore, while the current study adds importantly to the literature, future work may consider the use of more varied stimuli. Second, the animals here were engaged in a behavioral task; but apart from an initial calculation of behavioral d', the task performance (and its effect on neural activity) is largely unaddressed.

      The reviewer makes several important points that we hope we addressed in the specific changes detailed below. Indeed, it is important to recognize the possibility that the specific stimuli involved in a task may interact with the effects of behavioral state and that variability in task performance should be considered as an important aspect of behavioral state.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I have a few minor comments and criticisms:

      (1) Figure 1c. The choice of low-contrast grey text (e.g. "Target vs. target" is unfortunate, especially when printed, and should be replaced (e.g. with dark grey).

      We have edited the figure to use a higher contrast (dark grey). Thanks for catching this.

      (2) Figure 2 and Supplementary Figure 3. I think some indication of error or significance is required in all panels. Without this, it's hard to interpret any of these panels.

      Thank you for this feedback. Including significance here was clarifying and helps to strengthen our claim that state-dependent changes in neural activity were smaller and more diverse for single neurons than at the population level. We modified Figure 2b-c to indicate whether each neuron’s response to the target stimulus was significantly different than its response to the catch stimulus. The same test was performed in Supplementary Figure 3. Additionally, we added a statistical test in Figure 2d-e to indicate, for each pair of target/catch stimuli, whether discrimination (d-prime) changed significantly between active and passive conditions. Furthermore, we modified the text of the second paragraph under the results heading: “Diverse effects of task engagement on single neurons in primary and non-primary auditory cortex” to reference and interpret the results of these significance tests. The new text reads as follows (L. 121):

      “Sound-evoked spiking activity was compared between active and passive states to study the impact of task engagement on sound representation. In both A1 and dPEG, responses to target and catch stimuli were significantly discriminable for a subset of single neurons (about 25% in both areas, Figure 2A-C, Supplemental Figures 3-5, bootstrap test). This supports the idea that stimulus identity can be decoded in both brain regions, regardless of task performance. However, the fact that the responses of most neurons in both brain areas could not significantly discriminate target vs. catch stimuli also highlights the diversity of sound encoding observed at the level of single neurons. The accuracy of catch vs. target discrimination for each neuron was quantified using neural d-prime, the z-scored difference in target minus catch spiking response for each neuron (Methods: Single neuron PSTHs and d-prime (Niwa et al., 2012a)). Task engagement was associated with significant changes in catch vs. target d-prime for roughly 10% of neurons in both A1 (40 / 481 neurons, bootstrap test) and dPEG (33 / 377 neurons, bootstrap test). This included neurons that both increased their discriminability and decreased their discriminability (Figure 2D-E). Thus, the effects of task engagement at the level of single neurons were relatively mild and inconsistent across the population; many neurons showed no significant change and of those that did, effects were bidirectional (Figure 2D-E).”

      We also included an additional methods paragraph in the “Statistical tests” section to describe the bootstrapping procedure used for these significance tests (L. 644):

      “The one exception to this general approach is in Figure 2, where we analyzed the sound discrimination abilities of single neurons. In this case, we computed p-values for each neuron and stimulus independently. First, for each neuron and catch vs. target stimulus pair, we measured d-prime (see Methods: Single neuron evoked activity and d-prime). We generated a null distribution of d-prime values for each neuron-stimulus pair, under each experimental condition by shuffling stimulus identity across trials before computing d-prime (100 resamples). A neuron was determined to have a significant d-prime for a given target vs. catch pair if its actual measured d-prime was greater than the 95th percentile of the null d-prime distribution. Second, for each neuron and catch vs. target stimulus pair, we tested if d-prime was significantly different between active and passive conditions. To test this, we followed a similar procedure as above, however, rather than shuffle stimulus identity, we shuffled active vs. passive trial labels. This allowed us to generate a null distribution of active vs. passive d-prime difference for each neuron and stimulus pair. A neuron was determined to have a significant change in d-prime between conditions if the actual Δ d-prime lay outside the 95% confidence interval of the null Δ d-prime distribution.”

      For Figure 2a, we chose not to indicate significance on the figure to avoid clutter, since the significance for all neurons in the population are shown in panels b-c anyway. Additionally, the difference plot shown in panel a is in units of z-scores, which we believe already gives a raw sense of the significance of the target vs. catch response change per neuron in this example dataset.

      (3) Figure 2 and Supplementary Figure 3. I would consider including some more examples as a Supplementary Figure (and perhaps combining Supp Fig 3 with Fig 2 as a main figure).

      We found no significant or apparent difference in single-neuron properties between A1 and dPEG. Therefore, we decided it is not helpful to plot both A1 and PEG examples in the main text. However, we agree that the ability to see more examples of the raw data could be useful. Therefore, we compiled two supplementary figures (Supplementary Figures 4 and 5) that replicate Figure 2a for all datasets, encompassing A1 and PEG.

      (4) Figure 2a and Supp Fig 3a. I was initially confused that the "delta-spk/sec (z-score)" values had themselves been z-scored, but now I think that they are simply the differences of the two left hand sub-panels. This could be made clear in the figure legend.

      The figure legends have been modified to state the procedure for computing “delta-spk/sec” more clearly. Specifically, we added the following information to the legend (L. 141):

      “Difference is computed as the z-scored response to the target minus the z-scored catch response (resulting in a difference shown in units of z-score).”

      (5) Figure 2b-e and Supp Fig 3b-e. Indicate the time window over which the responses were measured, and the number of neurons.

      Figure legends have been modified to include a sentence clearly stating the time window over which responses were measured. The number of neurons is also now included in the legend and on the figure itself. Furthermore, a brief description of the new statistical testing procedure has been added here (L. 144).

      “Responses were defined as the total number of spikes recorded during the 300 ms of sound presentation (area between dashed lines in panel A). Neurons with a significantly different response to the catch vs. target stimulus are indicated in black and quantified on the respective figure panel.”

      (6) Figure 2. "singe" should read "single"

      Typo in figure label has been fixed.

      (7) Line 144. Figure number is missing (Figure 3B-C).

      The missing figure number has been added to the text.

      (8) Figure 3. Again, the low-contrast grey should be replaced.

      The low-contrast grey has been replaced with dark grey.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      This study really nicely compares the activity and effects on activity in two areas of the auditory cortex in respect to task-engagement; I think it is, for the most part, very well done.

      A couple of specific recommendations:

      (1) Although I understand 'inf dB' as the SNR, including the actual dB level used in the experiments, would be useful, especially in the case of the inf dB.

      Thank you for this feedback. We agree that clarification about the overall sound level used here would be helpful. We have modified the methods section “Behavioral paradigm” to include the following sentence (L. 450):

      “That is, the masking noise (and distractor stimuli) were always presented with an overall sound level of 60 dB SPL. Infinite (inf) dB trials corresponded to trials where the target tone was presented at 60 dB SPL without any masking noise present, 0 dB to trials where the target was 60 dB SPL, -5 dB to trials where the target was presented at 55 dB SPL etc.”

      In addition, we have modified the main text (L. 82):

      “Animals reported the occurrence of a target tone in a sequence of narrowband noise distractors by licking a piezo spout (Figure 1A, Methods: Behavioral paradigm, distractor stimulus sound level: 60 dB SPL). … We describe SNR as the overall SPL of the target relative to distractor noise level. Thus, an SNR of –5 dB corresponds to a target level of 55 dB SPL while an Inf dB SNR corresponds to a target tone presented without any masking noise.”

      And Figure legend 1 now explicitly states the sound level used in the experiments (L. 104):

      “Variable SNR was achieved by varying overall SPL of the target relative to the fixed (60 dB SPL) distractor noise, e.g., -5 dB SNR corresponds to a 55 dB SPL target with 60 dB SPL masking noise. Infinite (inf) dB SNR corresponds to a target tone presented in isolation (60 dB SPL).”

      (2) I very much appreciate the attempt to disentangle task engagement from generalized arousal state, and specifically, addressing this through the use of pupillometry. However, by focusing the discussion of pupil dynamics solely on the arousal-state aspects of pupil size, the paper doesn't address the increasing evidence suggests that pupil size may fluctuate based upon a lot of other things, including perceptual events (see Kronemer et al, 2022 for a recent human paper; for auditory: Zekveld et al 2018 (review) and Montes-Lourido et al, 2021; but many many others, too). It would be nice to see either a bit more nuanced discussion of what pupil size may be indicating (easier), or analyzing the behavior in the context of pupil dynamics (a heavier lift).

      This is a good point. We agree that it is worth mentioning these more nuanced aspects of cognition that may be reflected by pupil size. Therefore, we also analyzed pupil size in the context of behavioral performance (see Supplemental Figure 6) and added the following text to the results (L. 193).

      “In addition to reflecting overall arousal level, pupil size has also been reported to reflect more nuanced cognitive variables such as, for example, listening effort (Zekveld et al., 2014). Furthermore, rodent data suggests that optimal sensory detection is associated with intermediate pupil size (McGinley et al., 2015), consistent with the hypothesis of an inverted-U relationship between arousal and behavioral performance (Zekveld et al., 2014). To determine if this pattern was true for the animals in our task, we measured the dynamics of pupil size in the context of behavioral performance. Across animals, task stimuli evoked robust pupil dilation that varied with trial outcome (Supplemental Figure 6b-c). Notably, pre-trial pupil size was significantly different between correct (hit and correct reject), hit, and miss trials (Supplemental Figure 6b-c), recapitulating the finding of an inverted-U relationship to performance in rodents (McGinley et al., 2015).  Since we focused only on correct trials in our decoding analysis, these outcome-dependent differences in pupil size are unlikely to contribute to the emergent decoding selectivity in dPEG.”

      (3) I think it would make this paper shine that much more if behavioral performance were not subsumed into the overall label of task engagement. You've already established you have performance that varies as a function of SNR; I would love to see the neural d' and covariability related to the behavioral d' (in the comparisons where this is possible). I would also love to see a more direct measure of choice for those stimuli that show variable behavior (e.g., a choice probability analysis or something of the like would seem to be easily applied to the target SNRs of -5 and 0 dB); and compare task engaged activity of hits vs misses vs passive listening to those same stimuli. You discuss previous studies looking at choice-related/decision-related activity and draw parallels to this work-given that there is the opportunity with this data set to *directly* assess choice-related activity, the absence of such an analysis seems like a missed opportunity.

      Thank you for this feedback. We agree that “task engagement” is not a unimodal state and that a more fine-grained analysis of task-engaged neural activity, according to behavioral choice, could be informative.

      First, we would like to point out that in Figure 4 we did already compare behavioral d’ to delta neural d’. We found that the two were significantly correlated in dPEG, but not in A1. This suggests that task-dependent changes in stimulus decoding in dPEG, but not A1, are predictive of behavioral performance. This is consistent with the finding that task-relevant stimulus representations were selectively enhanced in dPEG, but not in A1.

      Second, we added a choice decoding analysis to address whether auditory cortex represents the animal’s choice in our task. The results of this analysis are summarized in Supplemental Figure 8 and are discussed under the results section: “Behavioral performance is correlated with neural coding changes in non-primary auditory cortex only.” (L. 226):

      “The previous analysis suggests that the task-dependent increase in stimulus information present in dPEG population activity is predictive of overall task performance. Next, we asked whether the population activity in either brain region was directly predictive of behavioral choice on single hit vs. miss trials. To do this, we conducted a choice probability analysis (Methods). We found that in both brain regions choice could be decoded well above chance level (Supplemental Figure 8). Choice information was present throughout the entire trial and did not increase during the target stimulus presentation. This suggests that the difference in population activity primarily reflects a cognitive state associated with the probability of licking on a given trial, or “impulsivity” rather than “choice.” This interpretation is consistent with our finding that baseline pupil size on each trial is predictive of trial outcome (Supplemental Figure 6b).”

      To keep our decoding approach consistent throughout the manuscript, we followed the same approach for choice decoding as we did for stimulus decoding (perform dDR then calculate neural d-prime in the dimensionality reduced space). To make the results more interpretable, we converted choice d-prime to a choice probability (percent correctly decoded choices) using leave-one-out cross validation. (We note that d-prime and percent correct are very highly correlated statistics.) This is described in the methods as follows (L. 550):

      “We performed a choice decoding analysis on hit vs. miss trials. We followed the same procedure as described above for stimulus decoding, where instead of a pair of stimuli our two classes to be decoded were “hit trial” vs. “miss trial”. That is, for each target stimulus we computed the optimal linear discrimination axis separating hit vs. miss trials (Abbott and Dayan, 1999) in the reduced dimensionality space identified with dDR (Heller and David, 2022). For the sake of interpretability with respect to previous work we reported choice probability as the percentage of correctly decoded trial outcomes rather than d-prime. Percent correct was calculated by projecting the population activity onto the optimal discrimination axis and using leave-one-out cross validation to measure the number of correct classifications.”

      (4) It would also be interesting to look at population coding across sessions (although the point is taken that within a session allows the opportunity to assess covariability). Minorly self-servingly but very much related to the above point, Christison-Lagay et al, 2017 employed a similar detect-in-noise task, analyzed single neurons and population level activity, and looked at putative choice-related activity. The current study has the opportunity to expand on that kind of analysis that much more by looking across multiple sites vs within a given recording site; and compare across regions.

      Thank you for highlighting this point, we agree that it is important. When studying population coding it is critical to consider the impact of covariability between neurons. Therefore, it is worthwhile to revisit our interpretations of prior results, e.g., Christison-Lagay et al, 2017, which studied population coding by combining neurons across different sessions, given that we now have access to simultaneously recorded population data.

      First, we would like to point out that this was the primary motivation for our simulation analyses presented in Figure 5. Using simulations, we found that task-dependent gain modulation (which can be observed across sessions) was sufficient to explain our primary finding – selective enhancement in decoding of behaviorally relevant sound stimuli in dPEG.

      Second, to address the question about how covariability affects choice-related information in auditory cortex and compare our findings with prior studies, we performed the same set of simulations for choice probability analysis. We found that, again, choice-dependent gain modulation was sufficient to explain our findings. That is, simulations with hit- vs. miss-dependent gain changes, but fixed covariability, closely mirrored the choice probability we observed in the raw data. An additional simulation where covariability between all neurons was set to zero also recapitulated our findings in the raw data. Collectively, this suggests that covariability does not play a significant role in shaping the choice information present in A1 and dPEG during this task. We have added the following text to the manuscript to summarize this finding (L. 293):

      “Finally, we used the same simulation approach to determine what aspects of population activity carry the “choice” related information we observed in A1 and dPEG (Figure 4 – figure supplement 1). Similar to our findings for stimulus decoding, we found that gain modulation alone was sufficient to recapitulate the choice information present in the raw data for this task. This helps frame prior work that pooled neurons across sessions to study population coding of choice in similar auditory discrimination tasks (Christison-Lagay et al, 2017).”

    1. Note: This response was posted by the corresponding author to Review Commons. The content has not been altered except for formatting.

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      Reply to the reviewers

      1. General Statements

      *We thank the reviewers for the overwhelmingly positive feedback on our initial submission. *

      • *

      Reviewer 1: “Overall this is a very simple, although extensive and excellent, study analyzing a wide range of data form (sic) patients with bronchoalveolar lavage and epithelial cell samples, human epithelial cell cultures after infection with a range of respiratory viruses as well as the development of a 3D in silico analysis of potential protease and serpin interactions.”

      Reviewer 2: “Overall, this paper will be interesting to a specialized audience that is interested in SERPIN function. The SERPIN expression data during viral infection, discovery of CTSL as a target of PAI-1, and evidence that PAI-1 can inhibit SARS-CoV-2 replication, will move that field forward.”

      No new experiments were requested, but some were either suggested or explicitly marked optional. We thus focused the initial 4-week-revision on performing new experiments aimed to enhance our study’s significance and impact by validating the heart of our study: the data from the in-silico docking screen.

      Reviewer 1: “Further analysis of the detected proteases that are reported here to bind to PAI-1 would be of great interest.”

      Reviewer 2: “It is exciting that they predicted CTSL as a target of PAI-1, but it is not obvious that this is a generalizable approach without further hypothesis testing.”

      • *

      Thus, we performed additional protease activity assays to validate SERPIN-protease pairs from the in-silico-screen. The results elevate our study above the proof-of-principle state. Beyond their described roles in infectious disease, the two SERPINs that are now tested in more detail (SERPINB2, plasminogen activator inhibitor 2 and SERPINE1, plasminogen activator inhibitor 1) also play critical roles in cancer, neurodegeneration, aging, and cardiovascular disease. (Bouton et al., EMBO Mol Med 2023 Vol. 15 No. 6; Zhang et al., EMBO Mol Med 2023 Vol. 15 No. 9; Bode et al., EMBO Journal 1986 Vol. 5 No. 10; Uhl et al., EMBO Mol Med 2021 Vol. 13 No. 6). Given these multifaceted roles, we anticipate that our discovery of new SERPIN-protease binders and non-binders will advance various areas of human disease driven by SERPIN biology.

      2. Description of the planned revisions

      *We believe that the planned revisions outlined below can be finalized within 1-2 months. *

      • *

      Reviewer 1: “Further analysis of the detected proteases that are reported here to bind to PAI-1 would be of great interest.”

      *At the time of the 30-day revision, recombinant SERPINB1 (LEI) and SERPING1 (C1-INH) were still backordered with an estimated shipping date the week of resubmission. Once delivered, we will perform protease activity assays with LEI or C1-INH and uPA, TMPRSS2, Cathepsin L, and Cathepsin B to bring up the number of validated SERPIN:protease interactions from 8 to 16. *


      Reviewer 2, major points:

      9) Further, to strengthen the conclusions of this data the authors should include additional controls. One would be to use trixplanin as they did in previous panels to show that PAI-1 is necessary. Further, if the authors generate mutant PAI-1 that is unable to inhibit TMPRSS2 (see comment 11 below), they could also use this as a control to show the necessity of functional PAI-1.

      *We agree that these optional experiments would increase rigor. We generated plasmids containing mutated PAI-1 that we can use in spike cleavage assays as suggested and can perform this experiment. *

      *We can unfortunately not use triplaxinin on cells, as our preliminary data show that it is quite cytotoxic at the concentrations required to inhibit PAI-1. *

      10) For Figures 4I-J, is it possible to also blot for S1 cleavage? If possible, this optional data would be helpful to understand whether the entire cleavage process is disrupted or only S2 to S2' especially given that visually it appears as if the full length is more depleted in the condition with PAI-1 suggesting that it is cleaving spike better into S1 and S2. Could also suggest that the dynamics of cleavage are shifted rather than impaired?

      *S1 cleavage is shown indirectly in (now) Figure 5f,g – the main product of S1 cleavage is the fragment annotated as S2. Due to high levels of endogenous furin in BHK cells, this cleavage always occurs in this experimental setting. It is true that we have not shown the effects of PAI-1 inhibits on S1 cleavage– we can include that control in the above optional experiment (point 9). We do not expect PAI-1 to have an effect on S1 cleavage, as it is well-established that it does not inhibit furin. *

      • *

      Reviewer 2, minor points

      7) As a supplemental figure, can the authors show a complex blot (similar to Figure 4F) for CTSB to show that is does not complex with PAI-1.

      *Purified active CTSB is not commercially available, but we can attempt to perform gel shift analysis on the samples from the in vitro protease assay. Due to the presence of proteinaceous substrate in these samples, we have previously observed lot of background on the gel, but we can attempt it and include it in a revised manuscript if reviewer/editor find it useful. *

      *

      • *

      3. Description of the revisions that have already been incorporated in the transferred manuscript

      Reviewer 1:

      Summary:


      The authors do not reference the prior work which has examined cross class serpins, viral and mammalian, - this should be noted as alternative protease targets are known.

      *Thank you – please see our response in point 1 below. *

      • *

      The bronchiolar lavage analysis is excellent but cannot differentiate epithelial cell and associated immune cells and their roles in the response.

      We apologize for not making this clear – scRNAseq can indeed differentiate between different cell types using cell-type specific expression markers for each individual cell. This is how we were able to retrieve expression data specific for individual cell types. The reviewer is correct in that an expression analysis cannot show the role of individual cell types in the antiviral response. However, as epithelial cells are the primary cell type infected by SARS-CoV-2 gene expression patterns in these epithelial cells may show us cell-intrinsic effectors that are upregulated in response to viral infection. We now revised language in this paragraph to make this clearer (lines 156-162).

      • *

      PAI-1 does not seem to be present in the bronchoalveolar lavage samples.

      We do not know if PAI-1 is present, as we did not analyze protein levels in these samples. The gene expression data suggests that SERPINE1, the gene encoding PAI-1, is expressed at low levels in the epithelial cell subset at baseline, and expressed at slightly higher levels in individuals with severe COVID-19 (Figure 1c). This is consistent with previously published data on SERPINE1 gene expression upon viral infection (Dittmann et al., Cell, 2015).

      • *

      Further discussion of prior work with cross class serpins and also the limitations of the in-silico analyses and the lavage specimens should be provided.

      Prior work evidencing other cross class serpin protease targets as well as limitations related to the analyses as discussed in the critiques above should be noted and the abstract and title could better describe and define the studies as performed.

      *Thank you for raising these important points. For cross-class SERPINs, please see our response to point 1. The limitations of in silico analyses are discussed in-depth in a paragraph of the discussion (lines 608-631). We also discuss discrepancies observed between SERPIN expression in lavage specimens and in HAEC – please advise whether this is sufficient or needs bolstering (lines 546-564). We revised both title and abstract to better describe and define the studies as performed. *

      • *

      These correlations between changes in serpin and protease expression with viral infections and potential new interactions for serpins with previously non identified proteases is of clear interest. This shows an excellent correlation but as with big data sets this does not provide a true cause and effect - rather providing new potential directions for analysis of these interactions in viral infections in lung epithelium and this is valuable as a basis for ongoing studies.

      *We are in agreement with the lack of cause and effect –to our knowledge, we make no such claim from the gene expression data. We state that we used the expression data to guide the selection of SERPINs for our in-silico screen (lines 317-319). We then validated select data from our in-silico screen in vitro, which provides true cause and effect (Figures 4 and 5). *

      • *

      Major points:

      • Cross class serpin interactions are known and have been reported for at least two viral serpins Serp-1 and CrmA - both of which bind cysteine proteases as well as serine proteases as well as the mammalian SCCA serpins. *Thank you for bringing these two examples to our attention – we added them to the discussion (lines 648-652). We now also emphasized throughout the manuscript that the novelty of our findings is in PAI-1 cross-class inhibition, specifically, which has not been previously reported despite PAI-1 being an extremely well-studied SERPIN. *

      *We also would like to mention that in our opinion the scientific advance provided by our in-silico screen is not limited to the identification of new PAI-1 targets, but also provides a birds-eye view on SERPIN selectivity in a specific proteolytic landscape. For example, to our knowledge, it was unknown that SERPINB1 is promiscuous and that SERPINC1 is more selective, which our docking predicted. It was unknown that most TMPRSSs are unlikely SERPIN targets and that those that are SERPIN targets need to be in their active state to bind. The unsupervised clustering in Figure 4b (both on the SERPIN and on the protease side) predicts such unrecognized patterns in SERPIN selectivity. *

      • *

      • The protease targets are reported to vary when interacting with glycosaminoglycans such as heparan sulfate - PAI-1 inhibits thrombin in the presence of heparin - thus while a canonical serpin suicide inhibition is considered specific - it can vary. This is noted in the discussion Yes, we agree (lines 608-610).

      • What is the potential impact of the noted interactions of PAI-1 with other proteases such as cathepsin - PAI-1 is considered to have predominately extracellular functions, but prior work indicates internalization of PAI-1 when bound to the uPA/uPAR complex with alterations in intra cellular activation This is correct and PAI-1 internalization is cited and mentioned in discussion (lines 620-624). We now also added data on SARS-CoV-2 variant Omicron BA.1, which predominantly uses CTSL for maturation, and we show is also inhibited by PAI-1 (new Figure 5).

      • *

      • This is supported by basic in vivo and in vitro serpin and protease interactions that are demonstrated confirming in silico analyses, eg. gel shift analyses or even Mass spectrometry analysis particularly for PAI-1 Yes, this is the data shown in Figure 4. We now also added protease activity assays for other SERPIN-protease pairs, thereby elevating our study above the proof-of-principle state. *This was also a suggestion raised by reviewer 2. *

      • *

      • Per the authors "To date, three SERPINs have been studied in the context of innate antiviral defense: PAI- 1 (encoded by SERPINE1) against influenza viruses encoding hemagglutinin H1 and SARS-CoV-2, by impeding the proteolytic maturation of H1 or spike, respectively19,20; alpha-1-antitrypsin (encoded by SERPINA1) and antithrombin (encoded by SERPINC1) against SARS-CoV-2, likely through the inhibition of TMPRSS2, by reducing maturation of spike, although direct inhibition of TMPRSS2 by either SERPIN was not shown". This is partially complete however other serpins such as C1Inh and one virus derived serpin that have been analyzed for efficacy in treating SARS Thank you for mentioning this, we added the information to the introduction *(lines 106-111). *

      • *

      • While TMPRSS2 is indeed a serine protease - Beneficial effects of some serpins may be due to modulation of the immune response as opposed to selective anti-viral responses. The immune / cytokine storm and coagulopathies (with clotting and even hemorrhage) seen in the excess inflammatory response that causes respiratory vascular leak and severe viral sepsis. PAI-1 targets tPA and uPA - uPA has marked proinflammatory actions when bound to the uPA receptor (uPAR) and can activate growth factors and MMPs which can enhance immune cell invasion - PAI-1 binds to the uPA / uPAR complex which can thus also alter inflammatory cell responses and cell activation when internalized. Thank you for bringing up this point. The role of SERPINs in inflammation and anti-viral immune responses is indeed well-established. While our study focuses on cell-intrinsic antiviral roles of SERPINs by shutting down pro-viral proteases, which is much less established, we now added this to the results section for clarification (line 153-156).

      • The RCL does in general incorporate P4 to P4' but can vary from this specific P4 to P4' sequence *Yes, we agree. *

      • *

      • How accurately does in silico protease serpin analysis predict real interactions? - this should be discussed as HADDOCK may have some limitations - This is outside my field of expertise We added an in-depth paragraph on how HADDOCK operates to the results section to help readers not familiar with the technique (lines 248-290). We discuss the limitations of HADDOCK in depth in the discussion section *(lines 608-631)– please advise whether this needs additional information. *

      *We argue that, with the limitations stated in the discussion, our in-silico method predicts interactions well, as shown by the correct prediction of known binders and non-binders, as well as of new binders (PAI-1 to *active* TMPRSS2 and CTSL) and a new non-binder (CTSB). *

      *As with any screening method, results require validation via another method, which we performed for select SERPINs and proteases. In fact, the revised manuscript now features in vitro validation of 8 SERPIN-protease pairs (Figure 4a, b), with 8 additional planned (see “planned revisions” section). *

      • *

      • The data from a published study examining bronchoalveolar lavage fluid single cell transcriptional analysis from patients with and without COVID - mild and severe - and with comparison to patients without COVID does demonstrate altered protease and serpin activity - but does not indicate specific interactions *We agree with this statement partially. We disagree in that the data does not demonstrate altered protease and SERPIN activity; it instead demonstrates changes in gene expression levels. We agree in that this does indeed not indicate specific interactions. *

      • What is the significance for changes in gene expression in epithelial cells versus macrophage T and B cells looks - This looks like a small change like a small change in the mean values Figure 1b *We performed additional statistical analyses on the Figure 1 data – please refer to Reviewer 2 point 1. *

      • *

      • Of interest - is the brocholaveolar lavage fluid likely to contain both epithelial cells as well as immune response macrophage, T cells and NK cells etc - one assumes single cells were identified and isolated- Is this defined? Apologies if this was unclear. Yes, the BALF contains all of these cell types. We now added some sentences to the results section explaining scRNAseq and analyses in more detail *(lines 147-162). *

      • *

      • The known previously reported target proteases for PAI-1 should be noted Agreed; it is noted in the results section where we first speak about PAI-1 target specificity (line 379-382).

      SERPINE1 is not noted in figure 1 - this is PAI-1 - but is seen in the HAEC infection model data

      SERPINE1 is indeed not significantly upregulated in Figure 1, but is significantly upregulated in HAEC upon infection with Reovirus and parainfluenzavirus 3, and upon IFN stimulation (new Supplemental Tables S1 and S2). The possible reasons for discrepancies between the BALF and HAEC data are discussed in lines 546-564.

      • “To overcome this limitation, we developed a computational method to predict 3D interactions between SERPINs and proteases, simulating the binding process depicted in Supplemental Figure 1a. Specifically, we employed High Ambiguity Driven protein- protein Docking (HADDOCK), a tool that predicts complex structures, integrating experimental and computational data35,36." This analysis looks to be extensive however this is a correlation - not a true analysis of cause and effect. We agree on the first point – to our knowledge, our study provides the most extensive SERPIN target discovery process (testing 480 SERPIN-protease interactions). We disagree on the point that our results provide a mere correlation. If you will, we performed a computer-modeled interaction experiment that yields predicted binding energies between each SERPIN with each tested protease. We added a paragraph on how HADDOCK operates to the results section to help readers unfamiliar with the technique. As with any screening method, results need to be validated with another method, which we did for select SERPINs and proteases (Figure 4a, b). This does however have the potential to identify significant interactions We certainly agree on this point. * In future it might be of interest to assess PAI-1 given to infected cultures to assess viral replication and titers or perhaps examine a knock out cell model? We did exactly the former in Figure 4 (now 5). *

      • *

      • As PAI-1 was identified as having new cathepsin protease binding in addition to TMPRSS2 - the authors did demonstrate inhibition of the new targets on fluorometric analysis and also demonstrated interaction by gel shift - This is excellent *Thank you. *

      • *

      • The title and the abstract could be better written and more clearly indicate the extent of the analyses performed and the discovery of alternate protease targets for PAI-1 We modified both title and abstract.

      • *

      • Was the SARS CoV2 lung epithelial cell culture analysis performed in BSL3? Yes. All SARS-CoV-2 infection experiments were performed in a BSL3 environment. We added this information throughout the Methods section, and also generated a new Methods section on Biohazards (lines 779-797).

      __Minor critiques __

      1) Results section heading "SERPINs are differentially expressed individuals with COVID-19 and in response to respiratory virus infection in a model of the human airway epithelium." The word in needs to be inserted between expressed and individuals *Thank you for catching this – we fixed the sentence (lines 128-129). *

      *

      • *

      Reviewer 2:

      Major points:


      1) The rigor of the results presented in Figure 1 are unclear. For the COVID-19 analyses (Figure 1), only one dataset is used, and no statistical analyses are performed to determine to what degree any of the changes they observe are significant relative to variation in the dataset. This makes it difficult to determine how much can be extrapolated from these data.

      We agree that performing statistics on the BALF dataset would be ideal. However, the BALF contains only two non-infected individuals (intubated gun-shot victims), limiting our possibilities for statistical analysis.

      *For Figure 1b, we overcame this limitation by adding statistical analysis of upregulated expression values between cell types (i.e. by analyzing differences of upregulation of given SERPIN in epithelial cells compared to macrophages; Supplemental Table S1). We also performed statistical analysis on upregulation for individual SERPINs compared to housekeeping gene B2M (Supplemental Table S1). This revealed that SERPINs statistically significantly upregulated in severe COVID-19 in most cell types, including epithelial cells, in which SERPIN function has not been broadly studied. Upregulation was not statistically significant in mild COVID-19 samples, likely due to the n=3 (as compared to n=6 in the severe COVID-19 group). *

      *As for analysis of Figure 1c, we could theoretically perform analysis of differential levels between mild and severe COVID-19, but this is not the question we are trying to answer. The question is whether epithelial cells express SERPINs and proteases, and whether there is an upregulation of either in infected individuals. We now state the limitation of lacking statistical power in the figure legend and the text (lines 176-177). *

      2) Similarly, the qPCR data presented in Figure 2 are presented with no statistical analyses. Results should not only be presented with fold change but also p-values that are adjusted for multiple testing.

      *We now present p-values in Supplemental Table S2. Of note, data obtained with the experimental system of polarized airway epithelial cultures, differentiated over several weeks, tends to be noisier than that obtained with cell lines. Despite this, a number of SERPINs reach statistical significance. *

      • *

      3) How is the dotted line drawn in Figure 3C and D? It would appear there is very little in terms of HADDOCK score to distinguish a predicted "binder" from "non-binder". Also, they later show that CTSB is non inhibited, and yet in Figure 3C it is below the dotted line. Can the authors more clearly delineate how one might use their dataset shown in Figure 3B to accurately predict targets of SERPINs?

      This is a valid point. We added a more in-depth description to the results section on how we define “binders” and “non-binders” *(lines 324-331 and Figure 3 legend). We added raw data graph with the thresholds in Supplemental Figure 3d. We further added and defined a threshold line to the PAI-1:CTSs graph (Figure 3c). It is now evident that CTSL, A, F, K score as high-confidence “binders”, while CTSB and others do not. We also added the normalization process and the visual assessment of top-scoring complexes to the in silico docking screen schematic in Figure 3a and the respective figure legend to guide readers. *

      4) Based on this, it would be preferable for the authors to tone down their claims about the broad applicability of this approach to predict SERPIN-protease interactions. It is true that they have used it to accurately predict PAI-1-CTSL interactions, but to make such a broad claim about the generalizable nature of this approach would require testing several more SERPIN-protease pairs (both binders and non-binders) to clearly define the scores and parameters that can used to robustly predict interactions.

      We thank the reviewer for this criticism. We now address this in the text as outlined in our response to point 3 above. As with any screening method, the results require to be validated via an alternative approach, which we did in the initial submission for TMPRSS2 and CTSL as binders and CTSB as a non-binder. The revised manuscript now features additional in vitro validation of binders and non-binders for a total of 8 SERPIN-protease combinations (Figure 4a, b), which were all correctly predicted by our in-silico method. Two more SERPINs will be added in the final revision (see “planned revisions” section). Our study provides ample data for future studies validating additional predicted pairs and characterizing their biological function, in infectious disease and beyond.

      5) In Figure 3D, the authors mutate all eight modeled RCL residues to alanine to create a LOF mutant that has a higher HADDOCK score. Single residue mutations would be more convincing for their model, and would be more informative in terms of their predicted models of interactions.

      *We now performed the docking with the single mutant, please see new Figure 3c. *

      • *

      7) Further, in Figure 4G lanes 2-4, the PAI-1 band at ~38kDa is not present. Can the authors explain this?

      *This is likely because CTSL digests PAI-1 working at its optimum pH (aka “the protease wins”). We removed the panel from the manuscript. *

      9) In Figure 4I, the authors claim that the addition of PAI-1 is inhibiting cleavage of the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein (S2) based on densitometry quantifications. However, it is unclear how the authors are normalizing their data, nor whether the experiments (and therefore quantification) are from a single experiment or multiple replicates. Could the authors explain the quantification further and provide replicate information (including statistical support) if those experiments were performed?

      Thank you for pointing this out. An explanation has now been added to the Figure 5 legend.

      __Minor comments: __

      1) The authors speculate about SERPINA1 regulation during viral infection, suggesting an active process of "viral evasion". However, it would appear that even upon interferon treatment in Figure 2C, SERPINA1 expression is decreased. Based on that, the authors should soften their claims about the cause of downregulation of SERPINA1.

      Thank you for pointing this out – we softened the language on this point (*lines 225-228). *

      2) In Figure 2C, do the authors have an explanation or hypothesis for why SERPINE1 is less upregulated at 72hrs when compared to 24hr infection of SARS-CoV-2?

      *We can only speculate on this point. It is possible that one or several of the SARS-CoV-2 accessory proteins modulate SERPINE1 expression in a time-dependent manner. *

      3) Can the authors demonstrate how the docking structure of the TMPRSS2 zymogen differs from the active version (especially zooming in on the interface of PAI-1 and the protease)? This could be supplemental data but can the authors show a panel like that in Figure 3F to show how the interface between PAI-1 and TMPRSS2 zymogen looks. Does the inactive TMPRSS2 not interface well with the RCL? Or what is leading to the decreased HADDOCK score?

      We added an extensive paragraph on how HADDOCK operates to the results section to introduce how the HADDOCK score is calculated *(lines 248-290). We also added a visual of the top-scoring docking complex of PAI-1 and the TMPRSS2 zymogen (Figure 3d) to illustrate the differences in binding. *

      4) In methods, uPA fluorometric protease assay information is missing. Please add this information.

      Thank you for catching this – we added the information (line 890).

      5) It is a bit confusing that Figure 4K is the quantification of assays shown in Figure 4A-C, rather than quantification of any of the intervening figure panels. It might be clearer to move this quantification next to 4A-C so that it is clearer.

      *Thank you for the suggestion – Figure 4 has been restructured. *

      6) In Figure 4H, the authors show that addition of recombinant PAI-1 decreases the number of SARS-CoV-2 nucleoprotein positive cells. Have the authors examined whether this decreases the viral titers as well?

      *Yes, this is now part of the (new) Figure 5. *

      8) In the text, the authors suggest that PAI-1 inhibition of CTSL is surprising/novel. The authors should reconsider phrasing this since there are several other SERPINs that have been shown to inhibit other cathepsins, making this appear less surprising than the authors are suggesting.

      *Thank you for pointing this out. We have now clarified throughout the manuscript that while other SERPINs indeed are known to inhibit cathepsins, this had not been previously shown for the extremely well-studied SERPIN PAI-1 with over 15,000 pubmed entries. We also added the implications of this PAI-1-specific finding to the discussion section. *

      __Significance: __

      The claim of novelty about TMPRSS2 is confusing. In their previous paper (reference 19) they show that PAI-1 inhibits TMPRSS2 activity. These data are clearly shown in Figure 4C & 4D of that paper and are summarized in their sentence in the discussion: "Here, we find three new PAI-1 protease targets: human tryptase (tryptase Clara; club cell secretory protein), HAT, and TMPRSS2 ...". In this current paper, although they characterize the PAI-1-TMPRSS2 interaction in more detail than in their previous paper, they have truly only discovered one new target for PAI-1, which is CTSL.

      Thank you for pointing this out – we softened language on the novelty of TMPRSS2 as a PAI-1 target *throughout the manuscript. We further clarify that the novelty is that TMPRSS2 has to be in its active form to be inhibited by PAI-1, which was previously unknown (lines 392, 432). The revised manuscript now also provides validation of total 8 predicted binders and non-binders for 2 (Figure 4 b,c), with 8 more pending (see “planned revisions” section). As those two (future four) SERPINs have various roles in cancer, cardiovascular disease, neurodegeneration, and immunity, our findings have impact beyond their antiviral potential, thereby increasing the overall significance of the manuscript. *

      • *

      4. Description of analyses that authors prefer not to carry out

      Reviewer 1 major point:


      The more common names for the SERPINS as detected in COVID alveolar lavage samples would be helpful in figure 1 - and specifically labelling PAI-1 as this is a focus for this study - together with the known SERPIN nomenclature or under abbreviations - For example SERPINB2 is PAI-2 and SERPING1 is C1INH and SERPINA1 is alpha 1 antitrypsin *Thank you for this suggestion. We tried to keep the SERPIN nomenclature consistent throughout the manuscript, in that the SERPIN genes are referred to by their gene name (i.e., SERPINE1), while the proteins are referred to by their protein name (i.e., PAI-1). Editor and/or Reviewer 1, please advise whether this is acceptable or should be changed. We also added the protein corresponding names in the figure legend. *

      Why does supplemental figure 2 show SERPINB1 and not PAI-1. *We performed this computer-modeled experiment (docking SERPINs to known binders and known non-binders) for each SERPIN tested in the study. This was needed to obtain thresholds to define likely binders and likely non-binders. We chose to show SERPINB1 in this supplemental figure because it is well-described with regards to binders and non-binders (the latter, as “negative result”, is not always published for a given SERPIN). We also did not want to narrow the study immediately to PAI-1, as we believe our screen is a generalizable method and our findings are valid beyond PAI-1. We can easily show any other SERPIN here - editor and/or Reviewer 1, please advise. *

      Reviewer 2 major point:

      6) Figures 4F and 4G are rather confusing. First, in Figure 4F, amount of PAI-1 in lane 1 is not the same as in the lanes with CTSL. The biggest concern with this is that there is a second, higher MW band that is present in lane 1 (also in Figure 4G lane 1) that runs near the band in lanes 2&3 that is marked as the PAI-1-CTSL complex. Although it does appear that the band in lane 1 and lanes 2&3 are slightly different sizes, it is hard to say that conclusively when the amounts of PAI-1 are different. Can the authors repeat this assay to load consistent amounts PAI-1 across all conditions and even potentially separate the top bands to more convincingly show that the band in lanes 2&3 is not in the PAI-1 alone control?

      *The upper band is an impurity that disappears upon addition of a protease to the reaction. We confirmed that this band is neither PAI-1 nor CTSL via western blot with PAI-1- or CTSL-specific antibodies. Should reviewer 2 and/or the editor feel that we should repeat the experiment with more loading in the first lane, we can certainly do so. Please advise. *

      8) The authors show that exogenous PAI-1 can inhibit SARS-CoV-2 in a multicycle infection in Figure 4H. However, this could be acting at multiple points during the viral infection cycle. A clearer virology experiment to support their model would be to perform single-cycle infections to show that the virus fails to productively infect the cell. For instance, have the authors attempted a high MOI, single-cycle infection to see whether they can detect uncleaved spike protein to show inhibition of cleavage? Or show that no early products of viral infection are produced? While this type of experiment is optional in that it is not required to support the claim that PAI-1 inhibits multicycle SARS-CoV-2 infection, it would support the conclusion that PAI-1 is inhibiting viral entry.

      *We agree with the reviewer. We did expand on the virology by using now two strains of SARS-CoV-2 with different proteolytic needs, ancestral WA-1 and Omicron BA.1. We also performed titer analysis (all in Figure 5). *

      *However, the other suggested experiments would represent a substantial amount of work in a BSL3 environment. We thus would prefer not do these experiments (as the reviewer states, it is optional), and instead tone down the manuscript to make clear we make no claims on viral entry. *

      • *

      Reviewer 2 minor point:


      11) One (optional) way to extend these data and support their molecular model would be to mutate residues in PAI-1 that they predict are important for protease inhibition. As their source of PAI-1 currently is commercial, this would require purification of WT and variant PAI-1, which is clearly an undertaking. However, these data would strongly support their modeling and the importance of these residues in engaging with the proteases and springing the mousetrap for their in-vitro/in-vivo experiments (as suggested by data shown in Figure 3F and explained in text). Further, the authors can use these mutants to do some of the functional experiments in Figure 4 as a negative control, and potentially even separate the role of PAI-1 in inhibition of CTSL and TMPRSS2 in terms of SARS-CoV-2 inhibition.

      *We agree that these (optional) experiments would be beautiful and are indeed part of future studies on the subject. We feel that they exceed the scope of this current manuscript. *

    1. Note: This preprint has been reviewed by subject experts for Review Commons. Content has not been altered except for formatting.

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      Referee #2

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      Summary:

      Bobowik and colleagues perform a computational analysis of whole blood RNA-seq datasets from healthy individuals of three different regions of Indonesia. Their goal is to identify infecting pathogens and other microbes and correlate their abundances to host gene expression patterns or health characteristics in these populations. They find a broad range of bacterial, viral and microeukaryote taxa. When comparing the three Indonesian populations, they find that the Korowai population is the most diverse and different from the other two, possibly driven by the higher prevalence and abundance of Plasmodium (Apicomplexa) in this population.

      Then, the authors conduct a statistical decomposition of human gene expression in these samples in independent factors using ICA, and correlate each of these factors to the abundances of the microbial taxa detected. This analysis allows researchers to associate specific patterns of gene expression, such as immune-related pathways, to the presence of members of the Apicomplexa and Kitrinoviricota phyla.

      Lastly, the authors use previously published data from other two cohorts (from Mali and the UK) to contextualize their blood microbiome findings. They find microbial reads in all datasets. The Mali cohort is characterized by a large abundance of archaea, not found in the other two populations, while the UK cohort has the lower diversity. Altogether, the authors propose the use of RNA-seq data from human whole blood as a way to study the blood microbiome and establish potential associations between blood resident microbes and host gene expression

      Major comments:

      1. The methodology to filter and remove reads from potential contaminants needs to be more stringent to ensure the results do not contain spurious contaminants and that the conclusions are correct. It has been described that genomic databases are heavily contaminated with human sequences (Steinegger and Salzberg, 2020), and in this manuscript, even after a two-pass alignment with STAR, reads mapping to helminths also corresponded to the human genome. Additionally, ad-hoc removal of specific taxa (Metazoa and Viridiplantae) was only performed after suspicion of contamination. However, this ad-hoc removal cannot be performed with microbial (bacterial, viral, etc.) contaminants as there is a risk of removing actual bacteria from the samples. But it has been confirmed that many microbial assemblies also suffer from human contamination. Possible actions to take are the following:
        • a.Perform the human mapping with more lenient parameters to avoid human reads to map to other (likely contaminated) genomes in genome databases.
        • b.Remove common contaminants that have been documented, for instance in blood (Chrisman et al., 2022).
        • c.Run a tool to detect contaminated contigs in the database used to map reads to microbes and remove these problematic contigs from further analysis.
      2. In line with the above, removing singletons (as I have understood these are taxa that are represented by a single read), is a way to minimize the risk of contamination. To take advantage of the functional profiling of RNA-seq, a measure to ensure that microbes found in blood are active would be to include in the analysis only taxa for which expression of more than a few genes is detected. This type of filtering has been previously applied in studies where very low microbial loads are expected (Lloréns-Rico et al., 2021). In this study, it has only been applied to the specific case of the archaeal taxon Methanocaldococcaceae. However, I would expect cleaner results if applied consistently to all taxa detected.
      3. The specificity of Methanocaldococcaceae in the samples from Mali is very striking. I am highly suspicious that this only occurs due to a batch effect, even though the authors were highly selective in their cohorts to avoid these. In fact, I extracted the genes spanning the regions highlighted in Supplementary Figure 9 of the Methanocaldococcus jannaschii genome. A BLAST search of these sequences returned, among Methanocaldococcus hits, hits from the ERCC synthetic spike-in sequences, used as internal controls in many RNA-seq experiments. ERCC synthetic spike-in hits appeared for all 4 regions in the genome of M. jannaschii highlighted in this figure. In the original publications of this dataset, there is no reference to the use of these ERCC controls, but given the observed matches, I suggest the authors to perform an extra step in their filtering pipeline to remove all reads mapping to these ERCC standards in all their three cohorts to prevent these sort of batch effects.
      4. I am puzzled by the inconsistencies shown between forward and reverse reads when mapping paired-end data. I expect these inconsistencies at lower taxonomic ranks (species or genus level) due to incomplete genomes, but not at higher taxonomic ranks. I wonder if, by performing more stringent filtering of contaminants as suggested above, the consistency between forward and reverse reads increases and both mates can be used, making the mapping more reliable.

      In summary, my main concerns regarding this manuscript involve the possibility that contaminants in the sequencing data may be the cause of some of the results presented, and I tried to propose ways of dealing with these contaminants. While some of the results may not be affected by detection of contaminants (i.e. the association between Apicomplexa and some ICs), others such as the diversity measures or the comparison across cohorts may be severely affected. I will consider these results highly preliminary until a more thorough and stringent approach for contaminant removal is applied.

      Minor comments:

      1. I would appreciate some of the analyses done at lower taxonomic levels if the sparsity of the data allows it, after removing contaminants. Given that the CLR transformation does not allow for zeros, other alternatives such as GMPR (Chen et al., 2018) or adding a pseudocount would allow these analyses?
      2. In the PCA shown in figure 1, does the number of microbial reads detected correlate with any of the first two components?
      3. In Figure 1C, the x axis is wrongly named PC2.
      4. There is a typo in the legend of Figure 1A ("showeing")
      5. In the alpha diversity estimates comparison across the three different cohorts, after subsampling each population to achieve similar sample size in each cohort, it is stated that "after subsampling, each population had similar diversity estimates". However, the numbers shown afterwards corresponding to the mean values of alpha diversity, without confidence intervals or a boxplot/violin plot together with an accompanying statistical test, are not enough to assess similarity. I would appreciate a figure (similar to Figure 3E and F) or a test accompanying these mean values.
      6. In the volcano plots (Figure 3A, B and others throughout the manuscript) it would help the reader to add lines for the thresholds chosen for the effect size and -log10(p-value) to separate significant results.
      7. In Figure 3E and F, I would appreciate having bars for the statistically significant comparisons.

      References:

      Chen, L., Reeve, J., Zhang, L., Huang, S., Wang, X., and Chen, J. (2018). GMPR: A robust normalization method for zero-inflated count data with application to microbiome sequencing data. PeerJ 6, e4600. https://doi.org/10.7717/peerj.4600.

      Chrisman, B., He, C., Jung, J.-Y., Stockham, N., Paskov, K., Washington, P., and Wall, D.P. (2022). The human "contaminome": bacterial, viral, and computational contamination in whole genome sequences from 1000 families. Sci Rep 12, 9863. https://doi.org/10.1038/s41598-022-13269-z.

      Lloréns-Rico, V., Gregory, A.C., Van Weyenbergh, J., Jansen, S., Van Buyten, T., Qian, J., Braz, M., Menezes, S.M., Van Mol, P., Vanderbeke, L., et al. (2021). Clinical practices underlie COVID-19 patient respiratory microbiome composition and its interactions with the host. Nat Commun 12, 6243. https://doi.org/10.1038/s41467-021-26500-8.

      Steinegger, M., and Salzberg, S.L. (2020). Terminating contamination: large-scale search identifies more than 2,000,000 contaminated entries in GenBank. Genome Biol 21, 115. https://doi.org/10.1186/s13059-020-02023-1.

      Significance

      The research reported in this manuscript may have both technical and clinical significance, once the concerns raised above are adequately addressed. At the technical level, once contamination can be ruled out or securely minimized, this work can provide guidelines for microbial identification from whole blood RNA-seq data, applicable to both prospective studies as well as to retrospective studies using previously generated datasets. From this perspective, this work would add to the existing body of bioinformatics pipelines aimed at detecting microbes from host RNA-seq data (Simon et al., 2018). From a clinical perspective, it can provide an additional means of pathogen and disease surveillance without the need of microbial culturing or pathogen-specific tests. However, the requirement of blood samples may still hamper use in rural or underdeveloped areas. Lastly, another advantage is the possibility to directly link microbial abundances to gene expression patterns in the host.

      Field of expertise: bacterial transcriptomics, metatranscriptomics, low-biomass microbiome analyses.

      Limitations in my expertise: I cannot evaluate the clinical implications of the associations between host gene expression patterns and microbial abundances. Also, I am not familiar with the ICA methodology.

      Reference:

      Simon, L.M., Karg, S., Westermann, A.J., Engel, M., Elbehery, A.H.A., Hense, B., Heinig, M., Deng, L., and Theis, F.J. (2018). MetaMap: an atlas of metatranscriptomic reads in human disease-related RNA-seq data. GigaScience 7, giy070. https://doi.org/10.1093/gigascience/giy070.

    1. Note: This response was posted by the corresponding author to Review Commons. The content has not been altered except for formatting.

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      Reply to the reviewers

      Response to Reviewer 1


      __Glycosaminoglycan (GAG)-binding proteins regulating essential processes such as cell growth and migration are essential for cell homeostasis. It is reported that the GAG has the ability to bind to Herpin sulfate. As both GAGs and the LPS lipid A disaccharide core of gram-negative bacteria contain negatively charged disaccharide units, the researchers proposed that heparin-binding peptides might have cryptic antimicrobial peptide motifs. To prove the hypothesis, they have synthesized five candidates [HBP1-5], which showed a binding affinity towards heparin and LPS binding. By using various methods, they showed that these molecules have antimicrobial activity. The key finding in this study is the finding of the CPC domain, where C is a cationic amino acid and P is a polar amino acid. __

      Major comments

      1. __ Even though the Authors propose here that CPC' clip motif is needed for antimicrobial activity. However, various studies have demonstrated that the mere presence of cationic amino or hydrophobic amino acids does not give the activity, the location of these amino acids at the strategic position is critically needed. The major issue in this work, the authors have not presented, whether there was a single CPC motif or multiple in the 5 peptides they have synthesized. Further, they need to demonstrate how are the charged and hydrophobic amino acids distributed in the peptides. these things will clearly explain the difference in the activity as well spectrum of the peptides. The authors should make an extra figure or add information highlighting this unique characteristic for better understanding to the reader.__

      We thank the reviewer for his/her comments and suggestions. We concur that the distribution of amino acids is crucial for the antimicrobial activity of the peptides and their ability to bind heparin. We also agree with the suggestion of illustrating the location of the CPC' motifs of HBPs in the context of the parental proteins and have accordingly done so in the new Supplementary Figure 1. In all cases, only one CPC' motif was identified in the antimicrobial region, as highlighted in the figure, and the inter-residue distances measured are consistent with the CPC' motif definition. Thus, we demonstrate that a CPC' motif exists in all five HBPs, which explains how they recognize and bind heparin.

      To illustrate the distribution of charged and hydrophobic amino acids in HBPs, we have also prepared new Supplementary Figure 2, displaying electrostatic potentials in the predicted HBP structures, and showing how the distribution of charged residues creates hydrophobic and cationic patches on the surface of the peptides. Our analysis reveals cationic patches to be surrounded by hydrophobic residues, which may explain the ability of the peptides to disrupt membranes and exert antimicrobial activity.

      __ It is strange to observe that there are quite a number of reports showing that the peptides derived from the Herprin binding proteins have antimicrobial activity, but no one has reported their efficacy in the in vivo mouse model. if possible, the authors could add their observations if in vivo studies were done. or as a future line of study.__

      We thank the reviewer for his/her comment on the observation of antimicrobial activity in peptides derived from heparin-binding proteins. Indeed, a few such studies have appeared in the literature, some with moderate success [1]. It is possible that a lack of understanding on how to identify heparin-binding regions in proteins and AMPs underlies their relative paucity. In this context, we believe our results will spur further efforts, specifically by providing a rationale on how to identify CPC' motifs hence heparin-binding regions in protein sequences.

      Regarding the suggestion of assessing the in vivo efficacy of HBPs, we would agree that it would be helpful for better understanding their potential therapeutic applications. However, we feel that such experiments are beyond the scope of our manuscript, which offers ample, compelling in vitro and in silico evidence of how heparin-binding proteins can be a source of AMPs. We have done this by showing that CPC' motifs embedded in such proteins can be unveiled, accurately defined in structural terms, and experimentally shown to possess antimicrobial activity. Furthermore, we have shown that heparin binding correlates with LPS binding, allowing us to propose a mechanistic explanation for how heparin binding can be related to antimicrobial activity.

      Translating these results to animal models is possibly premature at this stage as, from a classical medicinal chemistry perspective, it would require previous structural elaboration in terms of, e.g., optimized serum half-life or serum protein binding, both of which can modulate activity in in vivo studies regardless of heparin affinity or bactericidal activity per se. Ongoing work in our laboratories is focused in these directions and will be reported in due time.

      *Referees cross-commenting**

      Minor comments

      1. __ The presence of Cryptic antimicrobial domain in various heparin-binding proteins like laminin isoforms, von Willebrand factor, vitronectin, protein C inhibitor, matrix glycoproteins thrombospondin, proline arginine-rich end leucine-rich repeat protein and fibronectin, have been reported previous. It is not clear why the authors did not refer to that work. The authors should refer to the works. (same as reviewer 3)__

      We were aware of other prior studies on heparin-binding proteins and did indeed cite some of them, though not exhaustively for conciseness' sake. However, as encouraged by reviewers 1 and 3 we have cited the following studies:

      Malmström E, Mörgelin M, Malmsten M, Johansson L, Norrby-Teglund A, Shannon O, Schmidtchen A, Meijers JC, Herwald H. Protein C inhibitor--a novel antimicrobial agent. PLoS Pathog. 2009 Dec;5(12):e1000698. doi: 10.1371/journal.ppat.1000698. Epub 2009 Dec 18. PMID: 20019810; PMCID: PMC2788422.

      Ishihara, J., Ishihara, A., Fukunaga, K. et al. Laminin heparin-binding peptides bind to several growth factors and enhance diabetic wound healing. Nat Commun 9, 2163 (2018). https://doi.org/10.1038/s41467-018-04525-w

      Chillakuri Chandramouli R, Jones Céline and Mardon Helen J(2010), Heparin binding domain in vitronectin is required for oligomerization and thus enhances integrin mediated cell adhesion and spreading, FEBS Letters, 584, doi: 10.1016/j.febslet.2010.06.023

      Papareddy P, Kasetty G, Kalle M, Bhongir RK, Mörgelin M, Schmidtchen A, Malmsten M. NLF20: an antimicrobial peptide with therapeutic potential against invasive Pseudomonas aeruginosa infection. J Antimicrob Chemother. 2016 Jan;71(1):170-80. doi: 10.1093/jac/dkv322. Epub 2015 Oct 26. PMID: 26503666.

      All the earlier studies related to the antimicrobial activity of the peptides derived from the Heparin-binding protein reported a consensus Cardin and Weintraub motifs i.e, XBBBXXBX or XBBXBX, where X represents hydrophobic or uncharged amino acids, and B represents basic amino acids. However, in this work, the researchers report about the presence of the new CPC motif. So, this is unique and a novelty in the study.

      We thank the reviewers for these observations. Indeed, our quest to unveil CPC' motifs in antimicrobial regions of heparin-binding proteins is the key point of our investigation, and what distinguishes it from previous studies on consensus motifs such as XBBBXXBX or XBBXBX. We believe our definition of CPC' motifs in simple, structure-based, and experimentally verifiable terms is not only a significant departure but also a step forward from earlier views, highlighting the importance of a structural perspective in defining heparin-binding regions. In point of fact, we show that our peptides, even without consensus Cardin-Weintraub motifs, bind heparin with high affinity. The presence of the CPC' motif is crucial for such binding, as well as for LPS binding, and the new experiments performed at editor/reviewer's request, where the CPC motif in HBP5 is abolished, with predictable impact, fully support our view, see new section "Insights into the CPC' motif of HBP-5 and its implication on the antibacterial mechanism" and new Table 3 in the revised manuscript.

      __ Even though the researchers report on the role of the CPC motif in the antimicrobial activity and binding to the heprin, the authors did not show any data or draw the conclusions related to the CPC domain when it comes to differences in the activity. this is the weakness of the manuscript. (same as reviewer 2)__

      We welcome the reviewer's observation. To address it, we made and tested three HBP-5 mutants aimed at showing how alterations in the CPC' motif might influence interaction with heparin and LPS, as well as antimicrobial properties. The first two mutants involved replacing positively charged R10 and R14 residues with glutamine, similar in size and polarity but uncharged. As shown in the new section "Insights into the CPC' motif of HBP-5 and its implication on the antibacterial mechanism" and on the new Table 3 of the revised manuscript, the changes reduced heparin binding, i.e., shorter retention times on affinity chromatography, as well as LPS binding, i.e., a decrease in EC50 in the cadaverine assay (Table 3). The modifications had a lesser impact on antimicrobial activity, most likely due to the low resolution of MIC assays.

      In a further step to assess the effect of the CPC' motif on antimicrobial activity, we deleted it in full by replacing residues H9, R10 and R14 of HBP-5 by alanine. As expected, this DCPC' peptide showed a sharp reduction in both heparin and LPS binding (Table 3) and, most importantly, a significant and asymmetric change in antimicrobial activity, with substantial impact on Gram-negatives yet practically no effect on Gram-positives, suggesting that LPS plays a key role in this selective response. Altogether, these observations align with our hypothesis that heparin-binding proteins might exploit their intrinsic affinity for heparin as an opportunity to developing antimicrobial properties by leveraging structural similarities between glycosaminoglycans and LPS.

      __ It is strange to observe that there are quite a number of reports showing that the peptides derived from the Herprin (sic) binding proteins have antimicrobial activity, but no one has reported their efficacy in the in vivo mouse model. if possible, the authors could add their observations if in vivo studies were done. or as a future line of study. (Same as reviewer 2)__

      We would kindly direct attention to #2 in the response to reviewer 1 above.

      __ There are more than 20 different AMP databases or prediction software. however, not all of them are 100 % current, their success rate varies from 30-50% only. It needs to be investigated if adding this search in the hit peptides might increase the success rate of the extra in silico-based AMPs prediction software.__

      If we understand the question correctly, the reviewer wonders whether including a CPC' motif predictor would increase the accuracy of AMP search algorithms. In our view, this strategy has two main limitations to be considered: (i) locating a CPC' motif in a peptide sequence typically requires a known 3D structure. Unfortunately, this is not always the case, and for proteins lacking reliable 3D data it can be a challenging and resource-intensive process; (ii) while CPC' motifs may predispose proteins to evolve antimicrobial properties, it is unclear if this is a required feature for all AMPs. Imposing the presence of a CPC' motif may not be applicable to all AMPs, although it might help identifying peptides with specific activity against gram-negative strains.

      In summary, while the query of including a CPC' motif search tool in AMP predictors is intriguing and worthy of exploration for its potential bearing on antimicrobial research, it is technically complicated and beyond the scope of our manuscript.

      __Reviewer #1 (Significance (Required)): __

      __All the earlier studies related to the antimicrobial activity of the peptides derived from the Heparin-binding protein reported a consensus Cardin and Weintraub motifs i.e, XBBBXXBX or XBBXBX, where X represents hydrophobic or uncharged amino acids, and B represents basic amino acids. However, in this work, the researchers report about the presence of the new CPC motif. So this is unique and a novelty in the study. __

      Even though the researchers report on the role of the CPC motif in the antimicrobial activity and binding to the heparin, the authors did not show any data or draw conclusions related to the CPC domain when it comes to differences in the activity. This is the weakness of the manuscript.

      We would direct reviewer's attention to #1 in the Referee's cross-commenting section above.


      Response to Reviewer 2


      This is a very nice paper by the Andreu and Torrent groups that report the antimicrobial and heparin-binding of several encrypted peptides. Overall, this study presents an intriguing exploration into the potential dual functionality of glycosaminoglycan (GAG)-binding proteins, specifically heparin-binding proteins (HBPs), in recognizing lipopolysaccharide (LPS) and exhibiting antimicrobial properties. The findings, particularly the identification and characterization of novel encrypted peptides, such as HBP-5, are promising and contribute to our understanding of the intricate interplay between GAG-binding proteins and immunity. The data provided and methodology are thorough and well described. In sum, this is a very nice work. Please see below my minor comments.


      Minor comments:

      1. __ Fig. 1 legend does not show antimicrobial activity. Please remove from the figure legend title.__

      As pointed out by the reviewer, the legend was incorrect and has been corrected accordingly and now reads "Figure 1. Structural and bioinformatics analysis of HBPs".

      __ Discussion section: the authors should expand this section a bit to discuss recent work in the encrypted/cryptic peptide area. There are some recent relevant papers published in the past 3 years that should be discussed.__

      We agree with the reviewer's suggestion to expand the discussion section to address recent work in the field of encrypted/cryptic peptides. We have carefully reviewed the recent literature and added several references in this topic:

      Torres MDT, Melo MCR, Flowers L, Crescenzi O, Notomista E, de la Fuente-Nunez C. Mining for encrypted peptide antibiotics in the human proteome. Nat Biomed Eng. 2022 Jan;6(1):67-75. doi: 10.1038/s41551-021-00801-1. Epub 2021 Nov 4. Erratum in: Nat Biomed Eng. 2022 Dec;6(12):1451. PMID: 34737399.

      • *

      Santos MFDS, Freitas CS, Verissimo da Costa GC, Pereira PR, Paschoalin VMF. Identification of Antibacterial Peptide Candidates Encrypted in Stress-Related and Metabolic Saccharomyces cerevisiae Proteins. Pharmaceuticals (Basel). 2022 Jan 28;15(2):163. doi: 10.3390/ph15020163. PMID: 35215278; PMCID: PMC8877035.

      • *

      Boaro A, Ageitos L, Torres MT, Blasco EB, Oztekin S, de la Fuente-Nunez C. Structure-function-guided design of synthetic peptides with anti-infective activity derived from wasp venom. Cell Rep Phys Sci. 2023 Jul 19;4(7):101459. doi: 10.1016/j.xcrp.2023.101459. PMID: 38239869; PMCID: PMC10795512.

      __ References provided are a bit outdated and do not accurately reflect the latest in the field (see comment above).__

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. Older references were updated as suggested.

      __ Gram should be capitalized throughout the text.__

      Gram has been capitalized as suggested by the reviewer.

      __ Can the authors comment on the potential translatability of HBP-5? Please also comment on the potential advantages of having peptides that 1) bind to heparin; and 2) kill bacteria.__

      We appreciate the reviewer's interest in the potential of HBP-5. Indeed, we believe it has promise for clinical applications due to its unique attributes, but further studies, including in vivo experiments and pharmacokinetic assessments, are needed to fully evaluate its potential. The advantages of peptides that bind to heparin and kill bacteria include targeted delivery or localization of therapeutic agents, enhanced efficacy, and minimized off-target effects. HBP-5's ability to perturb outer membrane LPS, a crucial aspect of its antibacterial activity, makes it a promising approach to combat Gram-negative bacterial infections, which are often challenging to treat. By disrupting the outer membrane integrity, HBP-5 may also enhance the susceptibility of Gram-negative bacteria to other antimicrobial agents or host immune responses, underscoring its translational potential for treating bacterial infections.

      __ More details on the computational tools and methods used to mine the peptides are needed.__

      We have updated the Methods section to provide more details on the computational tools used for defining AMPs. Briefly, from the library of heparin-binding proteins obtained from previous studies [2] and AMP scanning for all these proteins was performed using the AMPA tool. The predicted antibacterial segments were located in the 3D structure of their respective proteins. Then, the CPC' motifs were searched in each segment following the criteria previously reported in [3, 4]. The motif involves two cationic residues (Arg or Lys) and a polar residue (preferentially Asn, Gln, Thr, Tyr or Ser), with fairly conserved distances between the carbons and the side chain center of gravity, defining a clip-like structure where heparin would be lodged. This structural motif is highly conserved and can be found in many proteins with reported heparin binding capacity. Finally, for all these regions, docking with a heparin disaccharide was performed using AutoDock Vina to evaluate the potential binding energy.



      Response to Reviewer 3


      __Summary: This manuscript has identified and investigated antimicrobial peptides from GAG binding proteins. Authors hypothesized that due to physiochemical similarity between GAG and LPS, fragments of GAG binding proteins might exert antimicrobial activity particularly against G- bacteria. Authors have identified few such AMPs that demonstrate LPS binding and displayed antibacterial activity. They have also solved NMR structure of the potent peptide and mode of action. __

      Major comments: AMPs are promising molecules that can serve as lead for the development of therapeutics against MDR bacteria. In particular, currently therapeutic options to treat MDR Gram negative pathogens are limited. The current study is interesting and provides new non-toxic AMPs. Conclusions drawn from the works are largely valid. However, authors should address following comments:

      1. __ The design and characterization of the peptide YI12WF is not described. Previous studies had shown design of β-boomerang peptides (Bhattacharjya and coworkers) that target LPS.__

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. YI12WF (YVLWKRKRFIFI-amide) has been previously reported [4, 5] and shown to bind LPS with high affinity. YI12WF also contains a CPC' motif that, if deleted, reduces heparin binding [4]. References have been added in the text.

      __ Mutations or substitution of the key residues peptide 5 might improve the novelty of the work.__

      We thank the reviewer for this comment and agree that targeted substitutions in HBP-5 might shed light on the importance of the CPC' motif. As this point was also raised by reviewer 1, we would direct the reviewer's attention to #2 in the *Referees cross-commenting** section above.

      __ How these peptides disrupt LPS permeability is not investigated. As LPS is the major target.__

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion and have accordingly evaluated the outer membrane (OM) permeability of the peptides by the 1-N-phenyl-naphthylamine (NPN) assay, a widely used method to assess OM integrity in Gram-negative bacteria. NPN is typically unable to cross the intact outer membrane; however, when the membrane is damaged or disrupted, it can penetrate and interact with lipids and proteins inside the cell, leading to an increase in fluorescence which is directly correlated with the degree of OM permeability and serves as an indicator of membrane damage.

      Our results, illustrated in the new Figure 2D, show that all peptides are able to disrupt the OM of Gram-negative bacteria comparably to the LL-37 positive control, except for HBP2. Notably, HBP-5 exhibits the highest activity against OM, consistent with findings elsewhere in the manuscript and altogether confirming the ability of HBPs to bind to and disrupt the LPS structure.

      __ Are the D-enantiomers of the peptides active against bacteria?__

      We tested the antibacterial activity of the D-enantiomer of HBP5 (dHBP-and 5) and found it to be even higher than that of all-L HBP-5 against both Gram-negative and -positive bacteria, probably due to increased proteolytic stability as found in many AMP studies [6, 7]. As for LPS and heparin affinity, L- and D-HBP-5 behaved similarly (Table R1). As expected, the CD signatures of L- and D-HBP-5 were mirror images (Figure R1). These results suggest that the conformation of the CPC' motif is preserved in dHBP5, in tune with all previous results.

      Antibacterial Activity

      ID

      E. Coli

      P. Aeruginosa

      A. Baumannii

      S. Aureus

      E. Faecium

      L. monocytognes

      HPB-5

      0.4

      0.8

      0.2

      6.3

      25

      1.6

      dHBP-5

      0.1

      0.2

      0.2

      1.6

      0.4

      0.2



      Binding Affinity


      LPS (EC50, µM)

      Heparin (% Elution buffer)

      HPB-5

      0.9 {plus minus} 0.7

      98.0

      dHBP-5

      1.1 {plus minus} 0.8

      97.2

      Table R1. Antimicrobial activity of HBP-5 and dHBP-5









      Figure R1. CD spectra of HBP-5 (red line) and dHBP-5 (green line) in LPS (left panel) and heparin (right panel).


      __ 3D structure of peptide 5 is solved in DPC micelle which is a mimic for eukaryotic cells. Authors should attempt to determine structure in LPS as shown in several recent studies with potent AMPs thanatin, MSI etc.__

      We appreciate the suggestion and have indeed attempted to obtain NMR spectra of HBP-5 in LPS micelles. However, we've been hindered by peptide precipitation and, despite considerable efforts, have not been able to obtain satisfactory results thus far. In contrast, we have succeeded in obtaining CD spectra of HBP5 in LPS micelles, showing an a-helix conformation similar to the one in SDS micelles, hence suggesting similar conformation in both environments.

      Minor comments: There are examples of AMPs derived from human proteins. Authors should highlight such works.

      Other studies have been cited according to the reviewers' comments:

      Malmström E, Mörgelin M, Malmsten M, Johansson L, Norrby-Teglund A, Shannon O, Schmidtchen A, Meijers JC, Herwald H. Protein C inhibitor--a novel antimicrobial agent. PLoS Pathog. 2009 Dec;5(12):e1000698. doi: 10.1371/journal.ppat.1000698. Epub 2009 Dec 18. PMID: 20019810; PMCID: PMC2788422.

      Ishihara, J., Ishihara, A., Fukunaga, K. et al. Laminin heparin-binding peptides bind to several growth factors and enhance diabetic wound healing. Nat Commun 9, 2163 (2018). https://doi.org/10.1038/s41467-018-04525-w

      Chillakuri Chandramouli R, Jones Céline and Mardon Helen J(2010), Heparin binding domain in vitronectin is required for oligomerization and thus enhances integrin mediated cell adhesion and spreading, FEBS Letters, 584, doi: 10.1016/j.febslet.2010.06.023

      Papareddy P, Kasetty G, Kalle M, Bhongir RK, Mörgelin M, Schmidtchen A, Malmsten M. NLF20: an antimicrobial peptide with therapeutic potential against invasive Pseudomonas aeruginosa infection. J Antimicrob Chemother. 2016 Jan;71(1):170-80. doi: 10.1093/jac/dkv322. Epub 2015 Oct 26. PMID: 26503666.



      References

      1. Papareddy, P., et al., An antimicrobial helix A-derived peptide of heparin cofactor II blocks endotoxin responses in vivo. Biochimica et Biophysica Acta (BBA) - Biomembranes, 2014. 1838(5): p. 1225-1234.
      2. Ori, A., M.C. Wilkinson, and D.G. Fernig, A systems biology approach for the investigation of the heparin/heparan sulfate interactome. J Biol Chem, 2011. 286(22): p. 19892-904.
      3. Torrent, M., et al., The "CPC Clip Motif": A Conserved Structural Signature for Heparin-Binding Proteins.PLOS ONE, 2012. 7(8): p. e42692.
      4. Pulido, D., et al., Structural similarities in the CPC clip motif explain peptide-binding promiscuity between glycosaminoglycans and lipopolysaccharides. J R Soc Interface, 2017. 14(136).
      5. Bhunia, A., et al., Designed beta-boomerang antiendotoxic and antimicrobial peptides: structures and activities in lipopolysaccharide. J Biol Chem, 2009. 284(33): p. 21991-22004.
      6. Varponi, I., et al., Fighting Pseudomonas aeruginosa Infections: Antibacterial and Antibiofilm Activity of D-Q53 CecB, a Synthetic Analog of a Silkworm Natural Cecropin B Variant. Int J Mol Sci, 2023. 24(15).
      7. Chen, Y., et al., Comparison of Biophysical and Biologic Properties of α-Helical Enantiomeric Antimicrobial Peptides. Chemical Biology & Drug Design, 2006. 67(2): p. 162-173.
    1. Author response:

      eLife assessment:

      This manuscript reports valuable findings on the role of the Srs2 protein in turning off the DNA damage signaling response initiated by Mec1 (human ATR) kinase. The data provide solid evidence that Srs2 interaction with PCNA and ensuing SUMO modification is required for checkpoint downregulation. However, experimental evidence with regard to the model that Srs2 acts at gaps after camptothecin-induced DNA damage is currently lacking. The work will be of interest to cell biologists studying genome integrity but would be strengthened by considering the possible role of Rad51 and its removal. 

      We appreciate the editors and the reviewers for providing evaluation and helpful comments. As detailed below, we plan to adjust the writing and figures to address the points raised by the reviewers. We believe that these changes will improve the clarity of the work. Below is a summary of our plan to address the two main criticisms.

      (1) Regarding the sites of Srs2 action, our data support the conclusion that Srs2 removal of RPA is favored at a subset of ssDNA regions that have proximal PCNA, but not at sites lacking PCNA. A logical supposition for the former types of ssDNA regions includes ssDNA gaps and tails generated during DNA repair or replication, wherein PCNA can be loaded at the ssDNA-dsDNA junction with a 3’ DNA end. Examples of the latter type of ssDNA regions without proximal PCNA can form within negatively supercoiling regions or intact R-loops, both of which lack 3’ DNA end for PCNA loading. While we have stated this conclusion in the text, we highlighted ssDNA gaps as sites of Srs2 action in Discussion and in the model figure, which could be misleading. We will clarify our model, that is, Srs2 distinguishes among different types of ssDNA regions using PCNA proximity as a guide for RPA removal, and state that the precise nature of Srs2 action sites remain to be determined. Regardless, the feature of Srs2 revealed in this work provides a rationale for how it can remove RPA at subsets of ssDNA regions without unnecessary stripping of RPA at other sites.

      (2) While Rad51 removal is an important facet of Srs2 functions, it is not relevant to our current study based on the following observations and rationales.

      First, we have provided several lines of evidence to support the conclusion that Rad51 removal by Srs2 is separable from the Srs2-RPA antagonism (Dhingra et al., 2021). For example, while rad51∆ rescues the hyper-recombination phenotype of srs2∆ cells, it does not affect the hyper-checkpoint phenotype of srs2∆. Strikingly, rfa1-zm1/zm2 have the opposite effect. The differential effects of rad51∆ and rfa1-zm1/zm2 were also seen for the srs2-_ATPase dead allele (_srs2-K41A). For example, rfa1-zm2 rescued the hyper-checkpoint defect and the CPT sensitivity of srs2-K41A, while rad51∆ had neither effect.

      These and other data described in Dhingra et al suggest that Srs2’s effects on checkpoint vs. recombination are separable and that the Srs2-RPA antagonism during the DNA damage checkpoint is independent of Rad51.

      Second, our current work addresses which Srs2 features affect the Srs2-RPA antagonism during the DNA damage response and its implications. Given this antagonism is separable from Srs2 removal of Rad51, including Rad51 regulation would be distractive from the main points of this work.

      Third, in the current work, we began by examining all known regulatory and protein-protein interaction features of Srs2, including the Rad51 binding domain. Consistent with our conclusion summarized above based on the Dhingra et al study, deleting the Rad51 binding domain in Srs2 (srs2-∆Rad51BD) has no effect on rfa1-zm2 phenotype in CPT (Figure 2D). This is in sharp contrast to mutating the PCNA binding and the sumoylation sites of Srs2, which suppressed rfa1-zm2 for its CPT sensitivity and checkpoint abnormalities (Figure 2C). This data provides yet another evidence that Srs2 regulation of Rad51 is separable from the Srs2-RPA antagonism. 

      In summary, our work provides a foundation for future examination of how Srs2 regulates RPA and Rad51 in different manners, how these two facets of the Srs2 functions affect genome integrity in different capacity, and whether there is a crosstalk between them during certain DNA metabolism processes.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1:

      Overall, the data presented in this manuscript is of good quality. Understanding how cells control RPA loading on ssDNA is crucial to understanding DNA damage responses and genome maintenance mechanisms. The authors used genetic approaches to show that disrupting PCNA binding and SUMOylation of Srs2 can rescue the CPT sensitivity of rfa1 mutants with reduced affinity for ssDNA. In addition, the authors find that SUMOylation of Srs2 depends on binding to PCNA and the presence of Mec1. Noted weaknesses include the lack of evidence supporting that Srs2 binding to PCNA and its SUMOylation occur at ssDNA gaps, as proposed by the authors. Also, the mutants of Srs2 with impaired binding to PCNA or impaired SUMOylation showed no clear defects in checkpoint dampening, and in some contexts, even resulted in decreased Rad53 activation. Therefore, key parts of the paper would benefit from further experimentation and/or clarification.  

      We thank the reviewer for the positive comments on this work and address her/his remark regarding ssDNA gaps below in Major Comment #1. In addition, we detailed below our data and rationale in suggesting that the checkpoint dampening phenotype of srs2-∆PIM and -3KR (deficient for PCNA binding and sumoylation, respectively) is masked by redundant pathways. We further describe our plan to enhance the clarity of both text and model to address these points from the reviewer. 

      Major Comments 

      (1) The central model proposed by the authors relies on the loading of PCNA at the 3' junction of an ssDNA gap, which then mediates Srs2 recruitment and RPA removal. While several aspects of the model are consistent with the data, the evidence that it is occurring at ssDNA gaps is not strong. The experiments mainly used CPT, which generates mostly DSBs. The few experiments using MMS, which mostly generates ssDNA gaps, show that Srs2 mutants lead to weaker rescue in this context (Figure S1). How do the authors explain this discrepancy? In the context of DSBs, are the authors proposing that Srs2 is engaging at later steps of HRdriven DSB repair where PCNA gets loaded to promote fill-in synthesis? If so, is RPA removal at that step important for checkpoint dampening? These issues need to be addressed and the final model adjusted. 

      We appreciate the reviewer’s concern. Our conclusion is that Srs2 can be guided by PCNA to a subset of ssDNA regions for RPA removal, and that this Srs2 action is not favored at ssDNA regions with no proximal PCNA. It is important to note that CPT can produce both types of ssDNA regions. Besides ssDNA generated via DSB-associated recombinational repair, CPT can also lead to ssDNA gap formation upon excision repair and DNA-protein crosslink repair of trapped Top1 (Sun et al., 2020). ssDNA regions generated during these DNA repair processes often contain 3’ DNA end for PCNA loading, thus they can favor Srs2 removal of RPA. Another facet of CPT’s effects (besides DNA lesions) is depleting functional pool of Top1, thus causing topological stress and consequently increased levels of DNA supercoiling and R-loops (Koster et al., 2007, Petermann et al., 2022). ssDNA formed within the negatively supercoiled regions and in R-loops lacks 3’ DNA end unless it is cleaved by nucleases, thus these sites would be disfavored for Srs2 removal of RPA due to lack of PCNA loading. Our conclusion that ssDNA regions with nearby PCNA are preferred sites for Srs2 action provides a rationale for how Srs2 can remove RPA at certain ssDNA regions but minimize unnecessary stripping of RPA from other sites.

      We will clarify in Discussion that CPT can generate twp types of ssDNA regions as stated above, and that Srs2 could distinguish among them using PCNA proximity as a guide for RPA removal. While this conclusion was described in the text, we emphasized ssDNA gap as a Srs2 action site in the model. We will clarify that while this is a logical supposition, other types of ssDNAs with proximal PCNA could also be targeted by Srs2 and that our work paves the way to determine the precise nature of ssDNA regions for Srs2’s action. 

      The reasons for the less potent growth suppression of rfa1 mutants by srs2 alleles in MMS condition compared with CPT condition are unclear, but multiple possibilities should be considered, given that MMS and CPT affect checkpoint responses differently and that RPA and Srs2 affect growth in multiple ways. For example, while CPT only activates the DNA damage checkpoint, MMS additionally induces DNA replication checkpoint (Menin et al., 2018, Redon et al., 2003). It is thus possible that the Srs2-RPA antagonism is relatively more important for the DNA damage checkpoint than the DNA replication checkpoint. Further investigation of this possibility among others will shed light on differential suppressive effects seen in this work. We will include this discussion in the revised text.

      (2) The data in Figure 3 showing that Srs2 mutants reduce Rad53 activation in the rfa1-zm2 mutant are confusing, especially given the claim of an anti-checkpoint function for Srs2 (in which case Srs2 mutants should result in increased Rad53 activation). The authors propose that Rad53 is hyperactivated in rfa1-zm2 mutant because of compromised ssDNA protection and consequential DNA lesions, however, the effects sharply contrast with the central model. Are the authors proposing that in the rfa1-zm2 mutant, the compromised protection of ssDNA supersedes the checkpoint-dampening effect? Perhaps a schematic should be included in Figure 3 to depict these complexities and help the reader. The schematic could also include the compensatory dampening mechanisms like Slx4 (on that note, why not move Figure S2 to a main figure?... and even expand experiments to better characterize the compensatory mechanisms, which seem important to help understand the lack of checkpoint dampening effect in the Srs2 mutants) 

      Genetic interactions that involve partially defective alleles, multi-functional proteins, and redundant pathways are complex to comprehend. For example, a phenotype seen for the null allele may not be seen for partially defective alleles. In the context of this study, while srs2 null increased Rad53 activation (Dhingra et al., 2021), srs2-∆PIM and -3KR did not (Figure 3A-3B). However, srs2-∆PIM enhanced Rad53 activation when combined with another checkpoint dampening mutant slx4RIM, suggesting that defects of srs2-∆PIM can be compensated by Slx4 (Figure S2). Importantly, srs2-∆PIM and -3KR rescued rfa1-zm2’s checkpoint abnormality (Figure 3A3B), suggesting that Srs2 binding to PCNA and its sumoylation contribute to the Srs2-RPA antagonism in the DNA damage checkpoint response.

      A partially defective allele that impairs a specific function of a protein can be a powerful genetic tool even when it lacks a particular phenotype on its own. For example, a partially defective allele of the checkpoint protein Rad9 impairing its binding to gamma-H2A (rad9-K1088M) does not affect the G2/M checkpoint nor cause DNA damage sensitivity due to the compensation of other checkpoint factors (Hammet et al., 2007); however_, rad9-K1088M_ rescues the DNA damage sensitivity and persistent G2/M checkpoint of rtt107 and slx4 mutants, providing one of the evidences supporting a role of the Slx4-Rtt107 axis in removal of Rad9 from chromatin (via competing with Rad9 for gamma-H2A binding) (Ohouo et al., 2013).

      In order to highlight the checkpoint recovery process, the model in Figure 6 did not depict another consequence of the Srs2-RPA antagonism. In the presence of Srs2, DNA binding rfa1 mutants can lead to increased levels of DNA lesions and checkpoint, and these defects are rescued by lessening Srs2’s ability to strip RPA from DNA (Dhingra et al., 2021). We will modify the model in Figure 6 and its legend to clarify that the model depicts just one of the consequences of the Srs2 and RPA antagonism with a focus on the checkpoint recovery. We will also state these points more clearly in the Discussion. Further, a new schematic in Figure 3 as suggested by the reviewer will be added to outline the genetic relationship and interpretation. We will also follow reviewer’s suggestion to move Figure S2 to the main figures. Better characterizing the compensatory mechanisms among different checkpoint dampening pathways is very interesting but requires substantial amounts of work. While it is beyond the scope of the current study, it could be pursued in the future.

      (3) The authors should demarcate the region used for quantifying the G1 population in Figure 3B and explain the following discrepancy: By inspection of the cell cycle graph, all mutants have lower G1 peak height compared to WT (CPT 2h). However, in the quantification bar graph at the bottom, ΔPIM has higher G1 population than the WT. 

      We have added the description on how the G1 region of the FACS histogram was selected to derive the percentage of G1 cells in Figure 3B. Briefly, for samples collected for a particular strain, the G1 region of the “G1 sample” was used to demarcate the G1 region of the “CPT 2h” sample. Upon re-checking the included FACS profiles, we realized that a mutant panel and its datapoint were mistakenly put in the place for wild-type. We will correct this mistake. The conclusion remains that srs2-∆PIM and srs2-3KR improved rfa1-zm2 cells’ ability to exit G2/M, while they themselves do not show difference from the wild-type control for the percentage of G1 cells after 2hr CPT treatment. We will add statistics in figures to reflect this conclusion and adjust the order of strains shown in panel A and B to be consistent with each other.

      Reviewer #2:

      This is an interesting paper that delves into the post-translational modifications of the yeast Srs2 helicase and proteins with which it interacts in coping with DNA damage. The authors use mutants in some interaction domains with RPA and Srs2 to argue for a model in which there is a balance between RPA binding to ssDNA and Srs2's removal of RPA. The idea that a checkpoint is being regulated is based on observing Rad53 and Rad9 phosphorylation (so there are the attributes of a checkpoint), but evidence of cell cycle arrest is lacking. The only apparent delay in the cell cycle is the re-entry into the second S phase (but it could be an exit from G2/M); but in any case, the wild-type cells enter the next cell cycle most rapidly. No direct measurement of RPA residence is presented. 

      We thank the reviewer for the helpful comments. Previous studies have shown that CPT does not induce the DNA replication checkpoint, thus it does not slow down or arrest S phase progression; however, CPT does induce the DNA damage checkpoint, which causes a delay of G2/M cells to re-enter into the second cell cycle (Menin et al., 2018, Redon et al., 2003). Our result is consistent with previous findings, showing that CPT induces G2/M delay but not arrest. We will adjust the text to make this point clearer.

      We have previously reported chromatin-bound RPA levels in rfa1-zm2, srs2, and their double mutants, as well as in vitro ssDNA binding by wild-type and mutant RPA complexes (Dhingra et al., 2021). We found that Srs2 loss or its ATPase dead mutant led to 4-6 fold increase of RPA levels on chromatin, which was rescued by rfa1-zm2 (Dhingra et al., 2021). On its own, rfa1-zm2 did not cause defective chromatin association in our assays, despite modestly reducing ssDNA binding in vitro (Dhingra et al., 2021). This discrepancy could be due to a lack of sensitivity of chromatin fractionation assay in revealing moderate changes of RPA residence on DNA. Considering this, we decided to employ functional assays (Figure 2-3) that are more effective in identifying the Srs2 features pertaining to RPA regulation. 

      Strengths:

      Data concern viability assays in the presence of camptothecin and in the post-translational modifications of Srs2 and other proteins.

      Weaknesses:

      There are a couple of overriding questions about the results, which appear technically excellent. Clearly, there is an Srs2-dependent repair process here, in the presence of camptothecin, but is it a consequence of replication fork stalling or chromosome breakage? Is repair Rad51-dependent, and if so, is Srs2 displacing RPA or removing Rad51 or both? If RPA is removed quickly what takes its place, and will the removal of RPA result in lower DDC1-MEC1 signaling? 

      While Srs2 can affect both the checkpoint response and DNA repair in CPT conditions, the rfa1-zm2 allele, which affects the former but not the latter, role of Srs2, allows us to gain a deeper understanding of the former role (Dhingra et al., 2021). This role also appears to be critical for cell survival in CPT, since srs2∆ growth on CPT-containing media was greatly improved by rfa1-zm mutants (Dhingra et al., 2021). Building on this understanding, our current study identified two Srs2 features that could afford spatial and temporal regulations of RPA removal from DNA, thus providing a rationale for how cells can properly utilize this beneficial yet also dangerous activity. Study of Srs2-mediated repair in CPT conditions, either in Rad51-dependent or independent manner, before and after replication forks stall or DNA breaks, will require substantial efforts and can be pursued in the future. We will add this point to the revised manuscript.

      Moreover, it is worth noting that in single-strand annealing, which is ostensibly Rad51 independent, a defect in completing repair and assuring viability is Srs2-dependent, but this defect is suppressed by deleting Rad51. Does deleting Rad51 have an effect here? 

      We have shown in our previous paper (Dhingra et al., 2021). that rad51∆ did not rescue the hyper-checkpoint phenotype of srs2∆ cells in CPT condition (Dhingra et al., 2021), while rfa1-zm1 and -zm2 did (Dhingra et al., 2021). Such differential effects were also seen for the srs2 ATPase-dead allele (Dhingra et al., 2021). These and other data described in the Dhingra et al paper suggest that Srs2’s effects on checkpoint vs. recombination are separable at least in CPT condition, and that the Srs2-RPA antagonism in checkpoint regulation is not affected by Rad51 removal (unlike in SSA situation).

      Neither this paper nor the preceding one makes clear what really is the consequence of having a weakerbinding Rfa1 mutant. Is DSB repair altered? Neither CPT nor MMS are necessarily good substitutes for some true DSB assay. 

      In our previous report (Dhingra et al., 2021), we showed that the rfa1-zm mutants did not affect the frequencies of rDNA recombination, gene conversation, or direct repeat repair (Dhingra et al., 2021). Further, rfa1-zm mutants did not suppress the hyper-recombination phenotype of srs2∆, while rad51∆ did (Dhingra et al., 2021). In a DSB system, wherein the direct repeats flanking the break were placed 30 kb away from each other, srs2∆ led to hyper-checkpoint and lethality, both of which were rescued by rfa1-zm mutants (Dhingra et al., 2021). In this assay, rfa1-zm mutants themselves did not show sensitivity, suggesting the repair is largely proficient. Collectively, these data provide evidence to suggest that weaker DNA binding of Rfa1 does not have detectable effect on the recombinational repair assays examined thus far, rather it has a profound effect in Srs2-mediated checkpoint downregulation. In-depth studies of rfa1-zm mutations in the context of various DSB repair steps will be interesting to pursue in the future.

      With camptothecin, in the absence of site-specific damage, it is difficult to test these questions directly. (Perhaps there is a way to assess the total amount of RPA bound, but ongoing replication may obscure such a measurement). It should be possible to assess how CPT treatment in various genetic backgrounds affects the duration of Mec1/Rad53-dependent checkpoint arrest, but more than a FACS profile would be required. 

      Quantitative measurement of RPA residence time on DNA in cells and the duration of Mec1/Rad53-dependent checkpoint arrest will be very informative but requires further technology development. Our current work provides a foundation for such quantitative assessment.

      It is also notable that MMS treatment does not seem to yield similar results (Fig. S1). 

      Figure S1 showed that srs2-∆PIM and srs2-3KR had weaker suppression of rfa1-zm2 growth on MMS plates than on CPT plates. The reasons for the less potent growth suppression in MMS condition compared with CPT condition are unclear, but multiple possibilities should be considered, given that MMS and CPT affect checkpoint responses differently and that RPA and Srs2 affect growth in multiple ways. For example, while CPT only activates the DNA damage checkpoint, MMS additionally induces DNA replication checkpoint (Menin et al., 2018, Redon et al., 2003). It is thus possible that the Srs2-RPA antagonism is more important for the DNA damage checkpoint than the DNA replication checkpoint. Further investigation of this and other possibilities will provide clues to the differential suppressive effects seen in this work. We will include this discussion in the revised text.

      Reviewer #3:

      The superfamily I 3'-5' DNA helicase Srs2 is well known for its role as an anti-recombinase, stripping Rad51 from ssDNA, as well as an anti-crossover factor, dissociating extended D-loops and favoring non-crossover outcome during recombination. In addition, Srs2 plays a key role in ribonucleotide excision repair. Besides DNA repair defects, srs2 mutants also show a reduced recovery after DNA damage that is related to its role in downregulating the DNA damage signaling or checkpoint response. Recent work from the Zhao laboratory (PMID: 33602817) identified a role of Srs2 in downregulating the DNA damage signaling response by removing RPA from ssDNA. This manuscript reports further mechanistic insights into the signaling downregulation function of Srs2. 

      Using the genetic interaction with mutations in RPA1, mainly rfa1-zm2, the authors test a panel of mutations in Srs2 that affect CDK sites (srs2-7AV), potential Mec1 sites (srs2-2SA), known sumoylation sites (srs2-3KR), Rad51 binding (delta 875-902), PCNA interaction (delta 1159-1163), and SUMO interaction (srs2SIMmut). All mutants were generated by genomic replacement and the expression level of the mutant proteins was found to be unchanged. This alleviates some concern about the use of deletion mutants compared to point mutations. The double mutant analysis identified that PCNA interaction and SUMO sites were required for the Srs2 checkpoint dampening function, at least in the context of the rfa1-zm2 mutant. There was no effect of these mutants in a RFA1 wild-type background. This latter result is likely explained by the activity of the parallel pathway of checkpoint dampening mediated by Slx4, and genetic data with an Slx4 point mutation affecting Rtt107 interaction and checkpoint downregulation support this notion. Further analysis of Srs2 sumoylation showed that Srs2 sumoylation depended on PCNA interaction, suggesting sequential events of Srs2 recruitment by PCNA and subsequent sumoylation. Kinetic analysis showed that sumoylation peaks after maximal Mec1 induction by DNA damage (using the Top1 poison camptothecin (CPT)) and depended on Mec1. These data are consistent with a model that Mec1 hyperactivation is ultimately leading to signaling downregulation by Srs2 through Srs2 sumoylation. Mec1-S1964 phosphorylation, a marker for Mec1 hyperactivation and a site found to be needed for checkpoint downregulation after DSB induction did not appear to be involved in checkpoint downregulation after CPT damage. The data are in support of the model that Mec1 hyperactivation when targeted to RPA-covered ssDNA by its Ddc2 (human ATRIP) targeting factor, favors Srs2 sumoylation after Srs2 recruitment to PCNA to disrupt the RPA-Ddc2-Mec1 signaling complex. Presumably, this allows gap filling and disappearance of long-lived ssDNA as the initiator of checkpoint signaling, although the study does not extend to this step.

      Strengths 

      (1) The manuscript focuses on the novel function of Srs2 to downregulate the DNA damage signaling response and provide new mechanistic insights. 

      (2) The conclusions that PCNA interaction and ensuing Srs2-sumoylation are involved in checkpoint downregulation are well supported by the data. 

      We thank the reviewer for carefully reading our work and for his/her positive comments. 

      Weaknesses 

      (1) Additional mutants of interest could have been tested, such as the recently reported Pin mutant, srs2Y775A (PMID: 38065943), and the Rad51 interaction point mutant, srs2-F891A (PMID: 31142613). 

      srs2-Y775A was shown to be proficient for stripping RPA from ssDNA and behaved like wild-type Srs2 in assays such as gene conversion and crossover control, and exhibited a genetic interaction profile as the wildtype allele. The authors suggest that the Y775 pin can contribute to unwinding secondary DNA structures. Collectively, these findings do not provide a strong rationale for srs2-Y775A being relevant for RPA removal from ssDNA. 

      We have already included the data showing that a srs2 mutant lacking the Rad51 binding domain (srs2-∆Rad51BD, ∆875-902) did not affect rfa1-zm2 growth in CPT nor caused other defects in CPT on its own (Figure 2D). This data suggest that Rad51 binding is not relevant to the Srs2-RPA antagonism in CPT, a conclusion fully supported by data in our previous study (Dhingra et al., 2021). Collectively, these findings do not provide a strong rationale to test a point mutation within the Rad51BD region. 

      (2) The use of deletion mutants for PCNA and RAD51 interaction is inferior to using specific point mutants, as done for the SUMO interaction and the sites for post-translational modifications. 

      We agree with this view generally. However, this is less of a concern for the Rad51 binding site mutant (srs2∆Rad51BD), as it behaved as the wild-type allele in our assays. The srs2-∆PIM mutant (lacking 4 amino acids) has been examined for PCNA binding in vitro and in vivo in several studies (e.g. Kolesar et al., 2016, Kolesar et al., 2012); to our knowledge no unintended defect was reported. We thus believe that this allele is suitable for testing whether Srs2’s ability to bind PCNA is relevant to RPA regulation.

      (3) Figure 4D and Figure 5A report data with standard deviations, which is unusual for n=2. Maybe the individual data points could be plotted with a color for each independent experiment to allow the reader to evaluate the reproducibility of the results. 

      We will include individual data points as suggested and correct figure legend to indicate that three independent biological samples per genotype were examined in both panels.

      References:

      Dhingra N, Kuppa S, Wei L, Pokhrel N, Baburyan S, Meng X, Antony E and Zhao X (2021) The Srs2 helicase dampens DNA damage checkpoint by recycling RPA from chromatin Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 118

      Hammet A, Magill C, Heierhorst J and Jackson SP (2007) Rad9 BRCT domain interaction with phosphorylated H2AX regulates the G1 checkpoint in budding yeast EMBO Rep 8: 851-857

      Kolesar P, Altmannova V, Silva S, Lisby M and Krejci L (2016) Pro-recombination Role of Srs2 Protein Requires SUMO (Small Ubiquitin-like Modifier) but Is Independent of PCNA (Proliferating Cell Nuclear Antigen) Interaction J Biol Chem 291: 7594-7607

      Kolesar P, Sarangi P, Altmannova V, Zhao X and Krejci L (2012) Dual roles of the SUMO-interacting motif in the regulation of Srs2 sumoylation Nucleic Acids Res 40: 7831-7843

      Koster DA, Palle K, Bot ES, Bjornsti MA and Dekker NH (2007) Antitumour drugs impede DNA uncoiling by topoisomerase I Nature

      448: 213-217

      Menin L, Ursich S, Trovesi C, Zellweger R, Lopes M, Longhese MP and Clerici M (2018) Tel1/ATM prevents degradation of replication forks that reverse after topoisomerase poisoning EMBO Rep 19

      Ohouo PY, Bastos De Oliveira FM, Liu Y, Ma CJ and Smolka MB (2013) DNA-repair scaffolds dampen checkpoint signalling by counteracting the adaptor Rad9 Nature 493: 120-124

      Petermann E, Lan L and Zou L (2022) Sources, resolution and physiological relevance of R-loops and RNA-DNA hybrids Nat Rev Mol Cell Biol 23: 521-540

      Redon C, Pilch DR, Rogakou EP, Orr AH, Lowndes NF and Bonner WM (2003) Yeast histone 2A serine 129 is essential for the efficient repair of checkpoint-blind DNA damage EMBO Rep 4: 678-684

      Sun Y, Saha S, Wang W, Saha LK, Huang SN and Pommier Y (2020) Excision repair of topoisomerase DNA-protein crosslinks (TOP-

      DPC). DNA Repair 89: 102837

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    Annotators

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      This is an interesting and well-written paper reporting on a novel approach to studying cerebellar function based on the idea of selective recruitment using fMRI. The study is well-designed and executed. Analyses are sound and results are properly discussed. The paper makes a significant contribution to broadening our understanding of the role of the cerebellum in human behavior.

      We thank the reviewer for the positive assessment of our paper.

      (1) While the authors provide a compelling case for the link between BOLD and the cerebellar cortical input layer, there remains considerable unexplained variance. Perhaps the authors could elaborate a bit more on the assumption that BOLD signals mainly reflect the input side of the cerebellum (see for example King et al., elife. 2023 Apr 21;12:e81511).

      Our paper is based on the assumption that the cerebellar BOLD signal reflects solely the input to the cerebellum and does not reflect the changes in firing rates of Purkinje cells. This assumption relies on two lines of arguments: Studies that have directly looked at the mechanism of vasodilation in the cerebellum, and studies that try to infer the contributions of different neurophysiological mechanisms to overall cerebellar metabolism (Attwell and Iadecola, 2002).

      Vasodilatory considerations: The mechanisms that causes vasodilation in the cerebellum, and hence BOLD signal increases, has been extensively studied: Electrical stimulation of mossy fibers (Gagliano et al., 2022; Mapelli et al., 2017), as well as parallel fibers (Akgören et al., 1994; Iadecola et al., 1996; Mathiesen et al., 1998; Yang and Iadecola, 1997) lead to robust increases in cerebellar blood flow. In contrast to the neocortex, the regulation of blood flow in the cerebellum depends nearly purely on the vasodilator Nitric Oxide (NO) (Akgören et al., 1994; Yang and Iadecola, 1997) with stellate cells playing a key role in the signaling cascade (Yang et al., 2000).

      Electrical (Mathiesen et al., 2000) and pharmacological (Yang and Iadecola, 1998) stimulation of climbing fibers also leads to robust increases in blood flow. Simultaneous parallel and climbing fiber stimulation seems to combine sub-additively to determine the blood flow changes (K. Caesar et al., 2003).

      Importantly, even dramatic changes in spiking rate of Purkinje cells do not lead to changes in vasodilation. For starters, parallel fiber stimulation leads to blood flow increases, even though the net effect on Purkinje cell firing is inhibitory (Mathiesen et al., 1998). More importantly, complete inhibition of the Purkinje cell using a GABA agonist does not change baseline cerebellar blood flow (Kirsten Caesar et al., 2003). Conversely, even a 200-300% increase in simple (and complex) spike firing rate through application of a GABA antagonist does not show any measurable consequences for blood flow, even though it clearly increases the metabolic rate of oxygen consumption in the tissue (Thomsen et al., 2009, 2004).

      In sum, this extensive set of studies clearly argues that the cerebellar blood flow response is mostly dictated by synaptic input, and that the firing rate of Purkinje cells does not influence vasodilation. Because the BOLD signal is caused by an supply of oxygen over and above the level of oxygen consumption, this would argue that increases in Purkinje cell firing would not lead to BOLD increases. What is less clear is the degree to which changes in BOLD signal during normal activity are determined by changes in mossy fiber or climbing fiber input. Disruption of either pathway leads to 60-70% reductions in the evoked blood flow response during whisker stimulation (Yang et al., 2000; Zhang et al., 2003) – but it remains unclear to what degree this reflects the distribution of contributions in the healthy animal, as these powerful disruptions may have a number of side-effects.

      Metabolic considerations: To estimate the relative contributions climbing fiber / mossy fiber input to the variations in BOLD signal under natural conditions, it is useful to consider the contributions of different cerebellar processes to the overall metabolism of the cerebellum. Assuming an average firing rate of 40Hz for mossy fibers, ~3Hz for Granule cells, and 1Hz for climbing fibers, Howarth et al. (Howarth et al., 2012, 2010) estimated that the transmission from mossy fibers to granular cells, dominates the energy budget with 53%. The subsequent stage, encompassing the transfer of information from Granular cells to Purkinje cells, accounts for 32% of energy expenditure. In contrast, integration within Purkinje cells and the spiking (simple and complex) of these cells represents only 15% of the total energy consumption.

      More important for the BOLD signal, however, are the activity-induced variations in metabolic consumption: Purkinje cells fire relatively constantly at a very high frequency (~50Hz) both during awake periods and during sleep (Shin et al., 2007). When providing a signal to the neocortex, firing rate decreases, actually lowering the metabolic demand. Climbing fibers normally fire at ~0.5 Hz and even during activity rarely fire much above 2Hz (Streng et al., 2017). In contrast, granule cells show a low firing rates during rest (typically <1hz) and can spike during activity well above 100Hz. Combined with the sheer number of granule cells, these considerations would suggest that the vast majority of the variation in metabolic demand are due to mossy fiber input and granule cell activity.

      Overall, we therefore think it is likely that the main determinant of the cerebellar cortical BOLD signal is mossy fiber input and the transmission of information from mossy fibers to granule cells to Purkinje cells. We admit that the degree to which climbing fiber input contribute to BOLD signal changes is much less clear. We can be quite certain, however, that the firing rate of Purkinje cells does not contribute to the cerebellar BOLD signal, as even dramatic changes in the firing rate do not cause any changes in vasodilation.  We have clarified our line of reasoning in the paper, and hope this more extensive response here will give the reader a better overview over the pertaining literature.

      (2) The current approach does not appear to take the non-linear relationships between BOLD and neural activity into account.

      Thank you for raising this concern. We did not stress this point in the paper, but one big advantage of our selective recruitment approach is that it is – to some degree- robust against non-linearities in the relationship between neural activity and BOLD signal. This is the case, as long as the shape of the non-linearity is similar in the cerebellum and the neocortex. The results of our motor task (Figure 3) provide a clear example of this: The BOLD signal both in the neocortex and cerebellum incases non-linearly as a function of force – the increase from 2.5N to 6N (a 3.5N increase) is larger than the increase from 6N to 10N (a 4N increase). A similar non-linearity can be observed for tapping speed (6, 10 to 18 taps / s). However, within each condition, the relationship between cortical and cerebellar activity is nearly perfectly linear, reflecting the fact that the shape of the non-linearity for the cerebellum and cortex is very similar.

      Most importantly, even if the non-linearity across the two structures is different, any non-linear relationship between neural activity and BOLD signal (of vasodilatory nature) should apply to different conditions (here force and speed increases) similarly. Therefore, if two conditions show overlapping activity levels (as observed for force and speed across medium and high levels, Figure 3), a offset between conditions cannot be caused by a non-linearity in the relationship of cortical and cerebellar activity. Because all conditions are subject to the same non-linearity, all points should lie on a single (likely monotonically increasing) non-linear function. Both for the motor and working memory task, the pattern of results clearly violates this assumption.

      (3) The authors may want to address a bit more the issue of closed loops as well as the underlying neuroanatomy including the deep cerebellar nuclei and pontine nuclei in the context of their current cerebello-cortical correlational approach. But also the contribution of other brain areas such as the basal ganglia and hippocampus. 

      Cortical-cerebellar communication is of course bi-directional. As discussed in King at al., (2023), however, we are restricting our model to the connections from the neocortex to the cerebellum for the following reasons: First, cerebellar BOLD activity likely reflects mostly neocortical input (see our answer to pt. 1), whereas neocortical activity is determined by a much wider array of projections, including striato-thalamo-cortical and cortico-cortical connections. Secondly, the output of the cerebellum cannot be predicted from the BOLD signal of the cerebellar cortex, as it is unlikely that the firing rate of Purkinje cells contribute to cerebellar BOLD signal (see pt. 1). For these reasons we believe that the relationship between neocortical and cerebellar activity patterns is mostly dictated by the connectivity from cortex to cerebellum, and is therefore best modelled as thus. This is now more clearly discussed in a new paragraph (line 318-323) of the revised manuscript.

      We are also ignoring other inputs to the cerebellum, including the spinal chord, the basal ganglia (Bhuvanasundaram et al., 2022; Bostan and Strick, 2018) hippocampus (Froula et al., 2023; Watson et al., 2019), and amygdala (Farley et al., 2016; Jung et al., 2022; Terburg et al., 2024). In humans, however, the neocortex remains the primary source of input to pontine nuclei. Consequently, it stands as the main structure shaping activity within the cerebellar cortex. While it is an interesting question to what degree the consideration of subcortical structures can improve the prediction of cerebellar activity patterns, we believe that considering the neocortex provides a good first approximation.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations):

      (4)  A few sentences to clarify the used models as was done in the King et al. (2024) paper may improve readability.

      We have now added the sentences in the introduction (line 25ff):

      To approach this problem, we have recently developed and tested a range of cortical-cerebellar connectivity models (King et al., 2023), designed to capture fixed, or task-invariant, transmission between neocortex and cerebellum. For each cerebellar voxel, we estimated a regularized multiple regression model to predict its activity level across a range of task conditions (King et al., 2019) from the activity pattern observed in the neocortex for the same conditions. The models were then evaluated in their ability to predict cerebellar activity in novel tasks, again based only on the corresponding neocortical activity pattern. Two key results emerged from this work. First, while rs-FC studies (Buckner et al., 2011; Ji et al., 2019; Marek et al., 2018) have assumed a 1:1 mapping between neocortical and cerebellar networks, models which allowed for convergent input from multiple neocortical regions to a single cerebellar region performed better in predicting cerebellar activity patterns for novel tasks. Second, when given a cortical activation pattern, the best performing model could predict about 50% of the reliable variance in the cerebellar cortex across tasks (King et al., 2023).

      (5) To what extent does this paper demonstrate the limitations of BOLD in neuroscientific research? 

      The primary objective of this study was to shed light on the problems of interpreting BOLD activation within the cerebellum. The problem that the BOLD signal mostly reflect input to a region is not unique to the cerebellum, but also applies (albeit likely to a lesser degree) to other brain structures. However, the solution we propose here critically hinges on three features of the cerebellar circuitry: a) the mossy fiber input for the cerebellar hemispheres mostly arise from the neocortex, b) the BOLD signal is likely dominated by this mossy fiber input (see pt. 1), and c) there is very little excitatory recurrent activity in the cerebellum, so output activity in the cerebellum does not cause direct activity in other parts of the cerebellum.

      These features motivate us to use a directed cortex->cerebellum connectivity model, which does not allow for any direct connectivity within the cerebellum. While the same approach can also be applied to other brain structures, it is less clear that the approach would yield valid results here. For example, due the local excitatory recurrent connectivity within neocortical columns, the activity here will also relate to local processing.

      (6) What if the authors reversed their line of reasoning as in that cerebellum activity is matched to map changes in cerebral cortical activity? Perhaps this could provide further evidence for the assumed directional specificity of the task-dependent gating of neocortical inputs. 

      Given (a) that the cerebellar BOLD signal tells us very little about cerebellar output signals (b) that there are many other input signals to the neocortex that are more powerful than cerebellar inputs, and c) that there strong cortical-cortical connections, we believe that this model would be hard to interpret (see also our answer to pt. 3).

      Therefore, while the inversion of the linear task-invariant mapping between cortical and cerebellar activity is a potentially interesting exercise, it is unclear to us at this point what strong predictions we would be able to test with this approach.

      (7) The statement that cerebellar fMRI activity may simply reflect the transmission of neocortical activity through fixed connections can be better explained. Also in the context of using the epiphenomenon (on page 11) in the paper. To what extent is the issue of epiphenomenon not a general problem of fMRI research?

      We have rephrased the introduction of this idea (line 17):

      This means that increases in the cerebellar BOLD signal could simply reflect the automatic transmission of neocortical activity through fixed anatomical connections. As such, whenever a task activates a neocortical region, the corresponding cerebellar region would also be activated, regardless of whether the cerebellum is directly involved in the task or not.

      Epiphemonal activity: This is indeed a general problem in fMRI research (and indeed research that uses neurophysiological recordings, rather than manipulations of activity). Indeed, we have discussed similar issues in the context of motor activity in ipsilateral motor cortex (Diedrichsen et al., 2009). However, given that we only offer a possible approach to address this issue for the cerebellum (see pt. 5), we thought it best to keep the scope of the discussion focused on this structure.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Shahshahani and colleagues used a combination of statistical modelling and whole-brain fMRI data in an attempt to separate the contributions of cortical and cerebellar regions in different cognitive contexts.

      Strengths:

      The manuscript uses a sophisticated integration of statistical methods, cognitive neuroscience, and systems neurobiology.

      The authors use multiple statistical approaches to ensure robustness in their conclusions.

      The consideration of the cerebellum as not a purely 'motor' structure is excellent and important. <br />

      We thank the reviewer for their positive evaluation.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Two of the foundation assumptions of the model - that cerebellar BOLD signals reflect granule cells > purkinje neurons and that corticocerebellar connections are relatively invariant - are still open topics of investigation. It might be helpful for the reader if these ideas could be presented in a more nuanced light.

      Please see response to the comment 1 of Reviewer 1 for a more extensive and detailed justification of this assumption. We have now also clarified our rationale for this assumption better in the paper on line 10-14. Finally, we now also raise explicitly the possibility that some of the violations of the task-invariant model could be caused by selectively increase of climbing fiber activity in some tasks (line 340).

      (2) The assumption that cortical BOLD responses in cognitive tasks should be matched irrespective of cerebellar involvement does not cohere with the idea of 'forcing functions' introduced by Houk and Wise. 

      We are assuming that you refer to the idea that cerebellar output is an important determinant of the dynamics (and likely also of the magnitude) of neocortical activity. We agree most certainly here. However, we also believe that in the context of our paper, it is justified to restrict the model to the connectivity between the neocortex and the cerebellum only (see reviewer 1, comment 3).

      Furthermore, if increased cerebellar output indeed occurs during the conditions for which we identified unusually high cerebellar activity, it should increase neocortical activity, and bring the relationship of the cerebellar and cortical activity again closer to the predictions of the linear model. Therefore, the identification of functions for which cerebellar regions show selective recruitment is rather conservative.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations):

      (3) One of the assumptions stated in the abstract -- that the inputs to the cerebellum may simply be a somewhat passive relay of the outputs of the cerebral cortex -- has been challenged recently by work from Litwin-Kumar (Muscinelli et al., 2023 Nature Neuroscience), which argues for complex computational relationships between cortical pyramidal neurons, pontine nuclei and granule cells, which in turn would have a non-linear impact on the relationship between cortical and cerebellar BOLD. The modelling is based on empirical recordings from Wagner (2019, Cell) which show that the synaptic connections between the cortex and granule cells change as a function of learning, further raising concerns about the assumption that the signals inherent within these two systems should be identical. Whether these micro-scale features are indicative of the macroscopic patterns observed in BOLD is an interesting question for future research, but I worry that the assumption of direct similarity is perhaps not reflective of the current literature. The authors do speak to these cells in their discussion, but I believe that they could also help to refine the authors' hypotheses in the manuscript writ large.

      We absolutely agree with your point. However, we want to make extremely clear here that our hypothesis (that the inputs to the cerebellum are a linear task-invariant function of the outputs of the cerebral cortex) is the Null-hypothesis that we are testing in our paper. In fact, our results show the first empirical evidence that task-dependent gating may indeed occur. In this sense, our paper is consistent with the theoretical suggestion of (Muscinelli et al., 2023).

      You may ask whether a linear task-invariant model of cortical-cerebellar connectivity is not a strawman, given that is most likely incorrect. However, as we stress in the discussion (line 298-), a good Null-model is a useful model, even if it is (as all models) ultimately incorrect. Without it, we would not be able to determine which cerebellar activity outstrips the linear prediction. The fact that this Null-model itself can predict nearly 50% of the variance in cerebellar activity patterns across tasks at a group level, means that it is actually a very powerful model, and hence is a much more stringent criterion for evidence for functional involvement than just the presence of activity.

      (4) Further to this point, I didn't follow the authors' logic that the majority of the BOLD response in the cerebellum is reflective of granule cells rather than Purkinje cells. I read through each of the papers that were cited in defense of the comment: "The cerebellar BOLD signal is dominated by mossy fiber input with very little contribution from the output of the cerebellar cortex, the activity of Purkinje cells" and found that none of these studies made this same direct conclusion. As such, I suggest that the authors soften this statement, or provide a different set of references that directly confirm this hypothesis. 

      Please see response to the comment 1, Reviewer 1. We hope the answer provides a more comprehensive overview over the literature, which DOES show that spiking behavior of Purkinje cells does not influence vasodilation (as opposed to mossy fiber input). We have now clarified our rationale and the exact cited literature on line 9-14 of the paper.

      (5) Regarding the statement: "As such, whenever a task activates a neocortical region, we might observe activity in the corresponding cerebellar regions regardless of whether the cerebellum is directly involved in the task or not." -- what if this is a feature, rather than a bug? That is, the organisation of the nervous system has been shaped over phylogeny such that every action, via efference copies of motor outputs, is filtered through the complex architecture of the cerebellum in order to provide a feed-forward signal to the thalamus/cortex (and other connected structures). Houk and Wise made compelling arguments in their 1995 Cerebral Cortex paper arguing that these outputs (among other systems) could act as 'forcing functions' on the kinds of dynamics that arise in the cerebral cortex. I am inclined to agree with their hypothesis, where the implication is that there are no tasks that don't (in some way) depend on cerebellar activity, albeit to a lesser or greater extent, depending on the contexts/requirements of the task. I realise that this is a somewhat philosophical point, but I do think it is important to be clear about the assumptions that form the basis of the reasoning in the paper. 

      This is an interesting point. Our way of thinking about cerebellar function does indeed correspond quite well to the idea of forcing functions- the idea that cerebellar output can “steer” cortical dynamics in a particular way. However, based on patient and lesion data, it is also clear that some cortical functions rely much more critically on cerebellar input than others. We hypothesize here that cerebellar activity is higher (as compared to the neocortical activity) when the functions require cerebellar computation.

      We also agree with the notion that cerebellar contribution is likely not an all-or-none issue, but rather a matter of gradation (line 324ff).

      (6) Regarding the logic of expecting the cortical patterns for speed vs. force to be matched -- surely if the cerebellum was involved more in speed than force production, the feedback from the cerebellum to the cortex (via thalamus) could also contribute to the observed differences? How could the authors control for this possibility? 

      Our model currently indeed does not attempt to quantify the contributions of cerebellar output to cortical activity. However, given that cerebellar output is not visible in the BOLD signal of the cerebellum (see reviewer 1, comment 1), we believe that this is a rational approach. As argued in our response to your comment 2, increased cerebellar output in the speed compared to the force condition should bring the activity relationship closer to the linear model prediction. The fact that we find increased cerebellar (as compared to neocortical) activity in the speed conditions, suggests that there is indeed task-dependent gating of cortical projections to the cerebellum.

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    1. Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This manuscript by Shea and Villeda furnishes the field with a valuable scRNAseq data set detailing microglial aging in the mouse hippocampus. They provide clear evidence that changes in microglial attributes begin in mid-life, well before time points when mice are traditionally considered to be "aging." It also adds to a growing body of data in the field demonstrating that there is substantial heterogeneity in microglial responses to aging. Using in vitro experiments and transgenic manipulations in mice, the authors show that transforming growth factor beta (TGFb1)-based signaling can potently impact microglial state, consistent with previous findings in the field. They also demonstrate that manipulation of microglial TGFb1-based signaling can impact hippocampus-dependent behaviors.

      Limitations of the study lie primarily in reaching too far with interpretations of the data. The authors argue that changes in microglial transcriptome during midlife represent a type of "checkpoint," after which microglial aging can progress along distinct trajectories depending on the status of TGFb1 signaling. They also posit that a specific intermediate "stress response" state in midlife is mechanistically linked to a translational burst that drives the subsequent progression of microglia to an "inflammatory state." Unequivocal data to support these causal links is lacking, however. similarly, key additional experiments would be needed to demonstrate that TGFb1 signaling and microglial progression through these identified intermediate states are causally linked to cognitive decline.

      Guidance for readers along with study strengths and caveats:

      The present manuscript provides valuable strengthening and expansion to a growing body of data showing prominent changes in the microglial state during aging. Microarray(1), bulkRNAseq(2-5), scRNAseq(6,7), snRNAseq(8,9), and spatial transcriptomic(10) approaches have been leveraged to map changes in microglial transcriptome during aging in rodents, non-human primates, and humans. A number of these studies include the hippocampus (1,8,9,11) and have highlighted variation across brain regions in microglial transcriptomic changes during aging (1,11). They have also revealed differences across sex (7) as well as increased cell-to-cell heterogeneity (6-10), consistent with the idea that individual microglia can follow distinct aging trajectories. Several of these studies revealed that changes in microglial attributes begin in middle age (1,7,11), supporting similar observations from studies that did not use omics (12-14). The present manuscript utilizes scRNAseq of hippocampal microglia at adulthood (6mo), middle age (12mo), late middle age (18mo) and aging (24mo) to show that aging-induced changes in microglia begin in middle age and that microglia exhibit ample phenotypic heterogeneity during the progression of aging.

      To gain further insight into the dynamics of microglial aging in the hippocampus, the authors used a bioinformatics method known as "pseudotime" or "trajectory inference" to understand how cells may progress through different functional states, as defined by cellular transcriptome (15,16). These bioinformatics approaches can reveal key patterns in scRNAseq / snRNAseq datasets and, in the present study, the authors conclude that a "stress response" module characterized by expression of TGFb1 represents a key "checkpoint" in microglial aging in midlife, after which the cells can move along distinct transcriptional trajectories as aging progresses. This is an intriguing possibility. However, pseudotime analyses need to be validated via additional bioinformatics as well as follow-up experiments. Indeed, Heumos et al, in their Nature Genetics "Expert Guidelines" Review, emphasize that "inferred trajectories might not necessarily have biological meaning." They recommend that "when the expected topology is unknown, trajectories and downstream hypotheses should be confirmed by multiple trajectory inference methods using different underlying assumptions."(15) Numerous algorithms are available for trajectory inference (e.g. Monocle, PAGA, Sligshot, RaceID/StemID, among many others) and their performance and suitability depends on the individual dataset and nature of the trajectories that are to be inferred. It is recommended to use dynGuidelines(16) for the selection of optimal pseudotime analysis methods. In the present manuscript, the authors do not provide any justification for their use of Monocle 3 over other trajectory inference approaches, nor do they employ a secondary trajectory inference method to confirm observations made with Monocle 3. Finally, follow-up validation experiments that the authors carry out have their own limitations and caveats (see below). Hence, while the microglial aging trajectories identified by this study are intriguing, they remain hypothetical trajectories that need to be proven with additional follow-up experiments.

      To follow up on the idea that TGFb1 signaling in microglia plays a key role in determining microglial aging trajectories, the authors use RNAscope to show that TGFb1 levels in microglia peak in middle age. They also treat primary LPS-activated microglia with TGFb1 and show that this restores expression of microglial homeostatic gene expression and dampens expression of stress response and, potentially, inflammatory genes. Finally, they utilize transgenic approaches to delete TGFb1 from microglia around 8-10mo of age and scRNAseq to show that homeostatic signatures are lost and inflammatory signatures are gained. Hence, findings in this study support the idea that TGFb1 can strongly regulate microglial phenotype. Loss of TGFb1 signaling to microglia in adulthood has already been shown to cause decreased microglial morphological complexity and upregulation of genes typically associated with microglial responses to CNS insults(17-19). TGFb1 signaling to microglia has also been implicated in microglial responses to disease and manipulations to increase this signaling can improve disease progression in some cases(19). In this light, the findings in the present study are largely confirmatory of previous findings in the literature. They also fall short of unequivocally demonstrating that TGFb1 signaling acts as a "checkpoint" for determining subsequent microglial aging trajectory. To show this clearly, one would need to perturb TGFb1 signaling around 12mo of age and carry out sequencing (bulkRNAseq or scRNAseq) of microglia at 18mo and 24mo. Such experiments could directly demonstrate whether the whole microglial population has been diverted to the TGFb1-low aging trajectory (that progresses through a translational burst state to an inflammation state as proposed). Future development of tools to tag TGFb1 high or low microglia could also enable fate tracing type experiments to directly show whether the TGFb1 state in middle age predicts cell state at later phases of aging.

      The present study would also like to draw links between features of microglial aging in the hippocampus and a decline in hippocampal-dependent cognition during aging. To this end, they carry out behavioral testing in 8-10mo old mice that have undergone microglial-specific TGFb1 deletion and find deficits in novel object recognition and contextual fear conditioning. While this provides compelling evidence that TGFb1 signaling in microglia can impact hippocampus-dependent cognition in midlife, it does not demonstrate that this signaling accelerates or modulates cognitive decline (see below). Age-associated cognitive decline refers to cognitive deficits that emerge as a result of the normative brain aging process(20-21). For a cognitive deficit to be considered age-associated cognitive decline, it must be shown that the cognitive operation under study was intact at some point earlier in the adult lifespan. This requires longitudinal study designs that determine whether a manipulation impacts the relationship between brain status and cognition as animals age (22-24). Alternatively, cross-sectional studies with adequate sample sizes can be used to sample the variability in cognitive outcomes at different points of the adult lifespan(22-24) and show that this is altered by a particular manipulation. For this specific study, one would ideally demonstrate that hippocampal-based learning/memory was intact at some point in the lifespan of mice with microglial TGFb1 KO but that this manipulation accelerated or exacerbated the emergence of deficits in hippocampal-dependent learning/memory during aging. In the absence of these types of data, the authors should tone down their claims that they have identified a cellular and molecular mechanism that contributes to cognitive decline.

      A final point of clarification for the reader pertains to the mining of previously generated data sets within this study. The language in the results section, methods, and figure legends causes confusion about which experiments were actually carried out in this study versus previous studies. Some of the language makes it sound as though parabiosis experiments and experiments using mouse models of Alzheimer's Disease were carried out in this study. However, parabiosis and AD mouse model experiments were executed in previous studies (25,26), and in the present study, RNAseq datasets were accessed for targeted data mining. It is fantastic to see further mining of datasets that already exist in the field. However, descriptions in the results and methods sections need to make it crystal clear that this is what was done.

      References:

      (1) Grabert, K. et al. Microglial brain region-dependent diversity and selective regional sensitivities to aging. Nat. Neurosci. (2016). doi:10.1038/nn.4222<br /> (2) Hickman, S. E. et al. The microglial sensome revealed by direct RNA sequencing. Nat. Neurosci. (2013). doi:10.1038/nn.3554<br /> (3) Deczkowska, A. et al. Mef2C restrains microglial inflammatory response and is lost in brain ageing in an IFN-I-dependent manner. Nat. Commun. (2017). doi:10.1038/s41467-017-00769-0<br /> (4) O'Neil, S. M., Witcher, K. G., McKim, D. B. & Godbout, J. P. Forced turnover of aged microglia induces an intermediate phenotype but does not rebalance CNS environmental cues driving priming to immune challenge. Acta Neuropathol. Commun. (2018). doi:10.1186/s40478-018-0636-8<br /> (5) Olah, M. et al. A transcriptomic atlas of aged human microglia. Nat. Commun. (2018). doi:10.1038/s41467-018-02926-5<br /> (6) Hammond, T. R. et al. Single-Cell RNA Sequencing of Microglia throughout the Mouse Lifespan and in the Injured Brain Reveals Complex Cell-State Changes. Immunity 50, 253-271 (2019).<br /> (7) Li, X. et al. Transcriptional and epigenetic decoding of the microglial aging process. Nat. aging 3, 1288-1311 (2023).<br /> (8) Zhang, H. et al. Single-nucleus transcriptomic landscape of primate hippocampal aging. Protein Cell 12, 695-716 (2021).<br /> (9) Su, Y. et al. A single-cell transcriptome atlas of glial diversity in the human hippocampus across the postnatal lifespan. Cell Stem Cell 29, 1594-1610.e8 (2022).<br /> (10) Allen, W. E., Blosser, T. R., Sullivan, Z. A., Dulac, C. & Zhuang, X. Molecular and spatial signatures of mouse brain aging at single-cell resolution. Cell 186, 194-208.e18 (2023).<br /> (11) Soreq, L. et al. Major Shifts in Glial Regional Identity Are a Transcriptional Hallmark of Human Brain Aging. Cell Rep. 18, 557-570 (2017).<br /> (12) Hefendehl, J. K. et al. Homeostatic and injury-induced microglia behavior in the aging brain. Aging Cell (2014). doi:10.1111/acel.12149<br /> (13) Nikodemova, M. et al. Microglial numbers attain adult levels after undergoing a rapid decrease in cell number in the third postnatal week. J. Neuroimmunol. 0, 280-288 (2015).<br /> (14) Moca, E. N. et al. Microglia Drive Pockets of Neuroinflammation in Middle Age. J. Neurosci. 42, 3896-3918 (2022).<br /> (15) Heumos, L. et al. Best practices for single-cell analysis across modalities. Nat. Rev. Genet. 24, 550-572 (2023).<br /> (16) Saelens, W., Cannoodt, R., Todorov, H. & Saeys, Y. A comparison of single-cell trajectory inference methods: towards more accurate and robust tools. (2018). doi:10.1101/276907<br /> (17) Zöller, T. et al. Silencing of TGFβ signalling in microglia results in impaired homeostasis. Nat. Commun. 9, (2018).<br /> (18) Bedolla, A. et al. Microglia-derived TGF-β1 ligand maintains microglia homeostasis via autocrine mechanism and is critical for normal cognitive function in adult mouse brain. bioRxiv Prepr. Serv. Biol. (2023). doi:10.1101/2023.07.05.547814<br /> (19) Spittau, B., Dokalis, N. & Prinz, M. The Role of TGFβ Signaling in Microglia Maturation and Activation. Trends Immunol. 41, 836-848 (2020).<br /> (20) L. Nyberg, M. Lövdén, K. Riklund, U. Lindenberger, L. Bäckman, Memory aging and brain maintenance. Trends Cogn. Sci. 16, 292-305 (2012).<br /> (21) L. Luo, F. I. M. Craik, Aging and memory: A cognitive approach. Can. J. Psychiatry 53, 346-353 (2008).<br /> (22) Y. Stern, M. Albert, C. Barnes, R. Cabeza, A. Pascual-Leone, P. Rapp.<br /> A framework for concepts of reserve and resilience in aging. Neurobiol. Aging, 124 (2022), pp. 100-103, 10.1016/j.neurobiolaging.2022.10.015<br /> (23) Y. Stern, C.A. Barnes, C. Grady, R.N. Jones, N. Raz. Brain reserve, cognitive reserve, compensation, and maintenance: operationalization, validity, and mechanisms of cognitive resilience. Neurobiol. Aging, 83 (2019), pp. 124-129, 10.1016/j.neurobiolaging.2019.03.022<br /> (24) R. Cabeza, M. Albert, S. Belleville, F.I.M. Craik, A. Duarte, C.L. Grady, U. Lindenberger, L. Nyberg, D.C. Park, P.A. Reuter-Lorenz, M.D. Rugg, J. Steffener, M.N. Rajah. Maintenance, reserve and compensation: the cognitive neuroscience of healthy ageing. Nat. Rev. Neurosci., 19 (11) (2018), Article 11, 10.1038/s41583-018-0068-2<br /> (25) Palovics, R. et al molecular hallmarks of heterochronic parabiosis at single-cell resolution. Nature 603, 309-314 (2022)<br /> (26) Sala Frigerio, C. et al. The major risk factors for Alzheimer's Disease: age, sex, and genes modulate the microglial response to Abeta plaques. Cell Rep, 27, 1293-1306 (2019)

    1. Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      In this manuscript, the authors reported the biological role of RBM7 deficiency in promoting metastasis of breast cancer. They further used a combination of genomic and molecular biology approaches to discover a novel role of RBM7 in controlling alternative splicing of many genes in cell migration and invasion, which is responsible for the RBM7 activity in suppressing metastasis. They conducted an in-depth mechanistic study on one of the main targets of RBM7, MFGE8, and established a regulatory pathway between RBM7, MFGE8-L/MFGE8-S splicing switch, and NF-κB signaling cascade. This link between RBM7 and cancer pathology was further supported by analysis of clinical data.

      Overall, this is a very comprehensive study with lots of data, and the evidence is consistent and convincing. Their main conclusion was supported by many lines of evidence, and the results in animal models are pretty impressive.

    Tags

    Annotators

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment

      The study makes a valuable empirical contribution to our understanding of visual processing in primates and deep neural networks, with a specific focus on the concept of factorization. The analyses provide solid evidence that high factorization scores are correlated with neural predictivity, yet more evidence would be needed to show that neural responses show factorization. Consequently, while several aspects require further clarification, in its current form this work is interesting to systems neuroscientists studying vision and could inspire further research that ultimately may lead to better models of or a better understanding of the brain.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The paper investigates visual processing in primates and deep neural networks (DNNs), focusing on factorization in the encoding of scene parameters. It challenges the conventional view that object classification is the primary function of the ventral visual stream, suggesting instead that the visual system employs a nuanced strategy involving both factorization and invariance. The study also presents empirical findings suggesting a correlation between high factorization scores and good neural predictivity.

      Strengths:

      (1) Novel Perspective: The paper introduces a fresh viewpoint on visual processing by emphasizing the factorization of non-class information.

      (2) Methodology: The use of diverse datasets from primates and humans, alongside various computational models, strengthens the validity of the findings.

      (3) Detailed Analysis: The paper suggests metrics for factorization and invariance, contributing to a future understanding & measurements of these concepts.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Vagueness (Perceptual or Neural Invariance?): The paper uses the term 'invariance', typically referring to perceptual stability despite stimulus variability [1], as the complete discarding of nuisance information in neural activity. This oversimplification overlooks the nuanced distinction between perceptual invariance (e.g., invariant object recognition) and neural invariance (e.g., no change in neural activity). It seems that by 'invariance' the authors mean 'neural' invariance (rather than 'perceptual' invariance) in this paper, which is vague. The paper could benefit from changing what is called 'invariance' in the paper to 'neural invariance' and distinguish it from 'perceptual invariance,' to avoid potential confusion for future readers. The assignment of 'compact' representation to 'invariance' in Figure 1A is misleading (although it can be addressed by the clarification on the term invariance). [1] DiCarlo JJ, Cox DD. Untangling invariant object recognition. Trends in cognitive sciences. 2007 Aug 1;11(8):333-41.

      Thanks for pointing out this ambiguity. In our Introduction we now explicitly clarify that we use “invariance” to refer to neural, rather than perceptual invariance, and we point out that both factorization and (neural) invariance may be useful for obtaining behavioral/perceptual invariance.

      (2) Details on Metrics: The paper's explanation of factorization as encoding variance independently or uncorrelatedly needs more justification and elaboration. The definition of 'factorization' in Figure 1B seems to be potentially misleading, as the metric for factorization in the paper seems to be defined regardless of class information (can be defined within a single class). Does the factorization metric as defined in the paper (orthogonality of different sources of variation) warrant that responses for different object classes are aligned/parallel like in 1B (middle)? More clarification around this point could make the paper much richer and more interesting.

      Our factorization metric measures the degree to which two sets of scene variables are factorized from one another. In the example of Fig. 1B, we apply this definition to the case of factorization of class vs. non-class information. Elsewhere in the paper we measure factorization of several other quantities unrelated to class, specifically camera viewpoint, lighting conditions, background content, and object pose. In our revised manuscript we have clarified the exposition surrounding Fig. 1B to make it clear that factorization, as we define it, can be applied to other quantities as well and that responses do not need to be aligned/parallel but simply live in a different set of dimensions whether linearly or nonlinearly arranged. Thanks for raising the need to clarify this point.

      (3) Factorization vs. Invariance: Is it fair to present invariance vs. factorization as mutually exclusive options in representational hypothesis space? Perhaps a more fair comparison would be factorization vs. object recognition, as it is possible to have different levels of neural variability (or neural invariance) underlying both factorization and object recognition tasks.

      We do not mean to imply that factorization and invariance are mutually exclusive, or that they fully characterize the space of possible representations. However, they are qualitatively distinct strategies for achieving behavioral capabilities like object recognition. In the revised manuscript we also include a comparison to object classification performance (Figures 5C & S4, black x’s) as a predictor of brain-like representations, alongside the results for factorization and invariance.

      In our revised Introduction and beginning of the Results section, we make it more clear that factorization and invariance are not mutually exclusive – indeed, our results show that both factorization and invariance for some scene variables like lighting and background identity are signatures of brain-like representations. Our study focuses on factorization because we believe its importance has not been studied or highlighted to the degree that invariance to “nuisance” parameters has in concert with selectivity to object identity in individual neuron tuning functions. Moreover, the loss functions used for supervised training functions of neural networks for image classification would seem to encourage invariance as a representational strategy. Thus, the finding that factorization of scene parameters is an equally good if not better predictor of brain-like representations may motivate new objective functions for neural network training.

      (4) Potential Confounding Factors in Empirical Findings: The correlation observed in Figure 3 between factorization and neural predictivity might be influenced by data dimensionality, rather than factorization per se [2]. Incorporating discussions around this recent finding could strengthen the paper.

      [2] Elmoznino E, Bonner MF. High-performing neural network models of the visual cortex benefit from high latent dimensionality. bioRxiv. 2022 Jul 13:2022-07.

      We thank the Reviewer for pointing out this important, potential confound and the need for a direct quantification. We have now included an analysis computing how well dimensionality (measured using the participation ratio metric for natural images, as was done in [2] Elmoznino& Bonner bioRxiv. 2022) can account for model goodness-of-fit (additional pink bars in Figure 6). Factorization of scene parameters appears to add more predictive power than dimensionality on average (Figure 6, light shaded bars), and critically, factorization+classification jointly predict goodness-of-fit significantly better than dimensionality+classification for V4 and IT/HVC brain areas (Figure 6, dark shaded bars). Indeed, dimensionality+classification is only slightly more predictive than classification alone for V4 and IT/HVC indicating some redundancy in those measures with respect to neural predictivity of models (Figure 6, compare dark shaded pink bar to dashed line).

      That said, high-dimensional representations can, in principle, better support factorization, and thus we do not regard these two representational strategies necessarily in competition. Rather, our results suggest (consistent with [2]) that dimensionality is predictive of brain-like representation to some degree, such that some (but not all) of factorization’s predictive power may indeed owe to a partial correlation with dimensionality. We elaborate in the Discussion where this point comes up and now refer to the updated Figure 6 that shows the control for dimensionality.

      Conclusion:

      The paper offers insightful empirical research with useful implications for understanding visual processing in primates and DNNs. The paper would benefit from a more nuanced discussion of perceptual and neural invariance, as well as a deeper discussion of the coexistence of factorization, recognition, and invariance in neural representation geometry. Additionally, addressing the potential confounding factors in the empirical findings on the correlation between factorization and neural predictivity would strengthen the paper's conclusions.

      Taken together, we hope that the changes described above address the distinction between neural and perceptual invariance, provide a more balanced understanding of the contributions of factorization, invariance, and local representational geometry, and rule against dimensionality for natural images as contributing to the main finding of the benefits from factorization of scene parameters.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The dominant paradigm in the past decade for modeling the ventral visual stream's response to images has been to train deep neural networks on object classification tasks and regress neural responses from units of these networks. While object classification performance is correlated to the variance explained in the neural data, this approach has recently hit a plateau of variance explained, beyond which increases in classification performance do not yield improvements in neural predictivity. This suggests that classification performance may not be a sufficient objective for building better models of the ventral stream. Lindsey & Issa study the role of factorization in predicting neural responses to images, where factorization is the degree to which variables such as object pose and lighting are represented independently in orthogonal subspaces. They propose factorization as a candidate objective for breaking through the plateau suffered by models trained only on object classification.

      They claim that (i) maintaining these non-class variables in a factorized manner yields better neural predictivity than ignoring non-class information entirely, and (ii) factorization may be a representational strategy used by the brain.

      The first of these claims is supported by their data. The second claim does not seem well-supported, and the usefulness of their observations is not entirely clear.

      Strengths:

      This paper challenges the dominant approach to modeling neural responses in the ventral stream, which itself is valuable for diversifying the space of ideas.

      This paper uses a wide variety of datasets, spanning multiple brain areas and species. The results are consistent across the datasets, which is a great sign of robustness.

      The paper uses a large set of models from many prior works. This is impressively thorough and rigorous.

      The authors are very transparent, particularly in the supplementary material, showing results on all datasets. This is excellent practice.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The primary weakness of this paper is a lack of clarity about what exactly is the contribution. I see two main interpretations: (1-A) As introducing a heuristic for predicting neural responses that improve over-classification accuracy, and (1-B) as a model of the brain's representational strategy. These two interpretations are distinct goals, each of which is valuable. However, I don't think the paper in its current form supports either of them very well:

      (1-A) Heuristic for neural predictivity. The claim here is that by optimizing for factorization, we could improve models' neural predictivity to break through the current predictivity plateau. To frame the paper in this way, the key contribution should be a new heuristic that correlates with neural predictivity better than classification accuracy. The paper currently does not do this. The main piece of evidence that factorization may yield a more useful heuristic than classification accuracy alone comes from Figure 5. However, in Figure 5 it seems that factorization along some factors is more useful than others, and different linear combinations of factorization and classification may be best for different data. There is no single heuristic presented and defended. If the authors want to frame this paper as a new heuristic for neural predictivity, I recommend the authors present and defend a specific heuristic that others can use, e.g. [K * factorization_of_pose + classification] for some constant K, and show that (i) this correlates with neural predictivity better than classification alone, and (ii) this can be used to build models with higher neural predictivity. For (ii), they could fine-tune a state-of-the-art model to improve this heuristic and show that doing so achieves a new state-of-the-art neural predictivity. That would be convincing evidence that their contribution is useful.

      Our paper does not make any strong claim regarding the Reviewer’s point 1-A (on heuristics for neural predictivity). In the Discussion, last paragraph, we better specify that our work is merely suggestive of claim 1-A about heuristics for more neurally predictive, more brainlike models. We believe that our paper supports the Reviewer’s point 1-B (on brain representation) as we discuss below.

      We leave it to future work to determine if factorization could help optimize models to be more brainlike. This treatment may require exploration of novel model architectures and loss functions, and potentially also more thorough neural datasets that systematically vary many different forms of visual information for validating any new models.

      (1-B) Model of representation in the brain. The claim here is that factorization is a general principle of representation in the brain. However, neural predictivity is not a suitable metric for this, because (i) neural predictivity allows arbitrary linear decoders, hence is invariant to the orthogonality requirement of factorization, and (ii) neural predictivity does not match the network representation to the brain representation. A better metric is representational dissimilarity matrices. However, the RDM results in Figure S4 actually seem to show that factorization does not do a very good job of predicting neural similarity (though the comparison to classification accuracy is not shown), which suggests that factorization may not be a general principle of the brain. If the authors want to frame the paper in terms of discovering a general principle of the brain, I suggest they use a metric (or suite of metrics) of brain similarity that is sensitive to the desiderata of factorization, e.g. doesn't apply arbitrary linear transformations, and compare to classification accuracy in addition to invariance.

      We agree with the Reviewer about the shortcomings of neural predictivity for comparing representational geometries, and in our revised manuscript we have provided a more comprehensive set of results that includes RDM predictivity in new Figures 6 & 7, alongside the results for neural fit predictivity. In addition, as suggested we added classification accuracy predictivity in Figures 5C & S4 (black x’s) for visual comparison to factorization/invariance. In Figure S4 on RDMs, it is apparent how factorization is at least as good a predictor as classification on all V4 & IT datasets from both monkeys and humans (compared x’s to filled circles in Figure S4; note that some of the points from the original Figure S4 changed as we discovered a bug in the code that specifically affected the RDM analysis for a few of the datasets).

      We find that the newly included RDM analyses in Figures 6 & 7 are consistent with the conclusions of the neural fit regression analyses: that the correlation of factorization metrics with RDM matches are strong, comparable in magnitude to that of classification accuracy (Figure 6, 3rd & 4th columns, compare black dashed line to faded colored bars) and are not fully accounted for by the model’s classification accuracy alone (Figure 6, 3rd & 4th columns, higher unfaded bars for classification combined with factorization, and see corresponding example scatters in Figure 7 middle/bottom rows).

      It is encouraging that the added benefit of factorization for RDM predictivity accounting for classification performance is at least as good as the improvement seen for neural fit predictivity (Figure 6, 1st & 2nd columns for encoding fits versus 3rd & 4th columns for RDM correlations).

      (2) I think the comparison to invariance, which is pervasive throughout the paper, is not very informative. First, it is not surprising that invariance is more weakly correlated with neural predictivity than factorization, because invariant representations lose information compared to factorized representations. Second, there has long been extensive evidence that responses throughout the ventral stream are not invariant to the factors the authors consider, so we already knew that invariance is not a good characterization of ventral stream data.

      While we appreciate the Reviewer’s intuition that highly invariant representations are not strongly supported in the high-level visual cortex, we nevertheless thought it was valuable to put this intuition to a quantitative, detailed test. As a result, we uncovered effects that were not obvious a priori, at least to us – for example, that invariance for some scene parameters (camera view, object pose) is negatively correlated with neural predictions while invariance to others (background, lighting) is positively correlated. Thus, our work exercises the details of invariance for different types of information.

      (3) The formalization of the factorization metric is not particularly elegant, because it relies on computing top K principal components for the other-parameter space, where K is arbitrarily chosen as 10. While the authors do show that in their datasets the results are not very sensitive to K (Figure S5), that is not guaranteed to be the case in general. I suggest the authors try to come up with a formalization that doesn't have arbitrary constants. For example, one possibility that comes to mind is E[delta_a x delta_b], where 'x' is the normalized cross product, delta_a, and delta_b are deltas in representation space induced by perturbations of factors a and b, and the expectation is taken over all base points and deltas. This is just the first thing that comes to mind, and I'm sure the authors can come up with something better. The literature on disentangling metrics in machine learning may be useful for ideas on measuring factorization.

      Thanks to the Reviewer for raising this point. First, we wish to clarify a potential misunderstanding of the factorization metric: the number K of principal components we choose is not an arbitrary constant, but rather calibrated to capture a certain fraction of variance, set to 90% by default in our analyses. While this variance threshold is indeed an arbitrary hyperparameter, it has a more intuitive interpretation than the number of principal components.

      Nonetheless, the Reviewer’s comment did inspire us to consider another metric for factorization that does not depend on any arbitrary parameters. In the revised version, we now include a covariance matrix based metric which simply measures the elementwise correlation of the covariance matrices induced by varying the scene parameter of interest and the covariance matrix induced by varying the other parameters (and then subtracts this quantity from 1).

      Correspondingly, we now present results for both the new covariance based measure and the original PCA based one in Figures 5C, 6, and 7. The main findings remain largely the same when using the covariance based metric, and the covariance based metric (Figure 5C, compare light shaded to dark shaded filled circles; Figure 6, compare top row to bottom row; Figure 7, compare middle rows to bottom rows).

      Ultimately, we believe these two metrics are complementary and somewhat analogous to two metrics commonly used for measuring dimensionality (the number of components needed to explain a certain fraction of the variance, analogous to our original PCA based definition; the participation ratio, analogous to our covariance based definition). We have added the formula for the covariance based factorization metric along with a brief description to the Methods.

      (4) The authors defined the term "factorization" according to their metric. I think introducing this new term is not necessary and can be confusing because the term "factorization" is vague and used by different researchers in different ways. Perhaps a better term is "orthogonality", because that is clear and seems to be what the authors' metric is measuring.

      We agree with the Reviewer that factorization has become an overloaded term. At the same time, we think that in this context, the connotation of the term factorization effectively conveys the notion of separating out different latent sources of variance (factors) such that they can be encoded in orthogonal subspaces.

      To aid clarity, we now mention in the Introduction that factorization defined here is meant to measure orthogonalization of scene factors. Additionally, in the Discussion section, we now go into more detail comparing our metric to others previously used in the literature, including orthogonality, to help put it in context.

      (5) One general weakness of the factorization paradigm is the reliance on a choice of factors. This is a subjective choice and becomes an issue as you scale to more complex images where the choice of factors is not obvious. While this choice of factors cannot be avoided, I suggest the authors add two things: First, an analysis of how sensitive the results are to the choice of factors (e.g. transform the basis set of factors and re-run the metric); second, include some discussion about how factors may be chosen in general (e.g. based on temporal statistics of the world, independent components analysis, or something else).

      The Reviewer raises a very reasonable point about the limitation of this work. While we limited our analysis to generative scene factors that we know about and that could be manipulated, there are many potential factors to consider. It is not clear to us exactly how to implement the Reviewer’s suggestion of transforming the basis set of factors, as the factors we consider are highly nonlinear in the input space. Ultimately, we believe that finding unsupervised methods to characterize the “true” set of factors that is most useful for understanding visual representations is an important subject for future work, but outside the scope of this particular study. We have added a comment to this effect in the Discussion.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Object classification serves as a vital normative principle in both the study of the primate ventral visual stream and deep learning. Different models exhibit varying classification performances and organize information differently. Consequently, a thriving research area in computational neuroscience involves identifying meaningful properties of neural representations that act as bridges connecting performance and neural implementation. In the work of Lindsey and Issa, the concept of factorization is explored, which has strong connections with emerging concepts like disentanglement [1,2,3] and abstraction [4,5]. Their primary contributions encompass two facets: (1) The proposition of a straightforward method for quantifying the degree of factorization in visual representations. (2) A comprehensive examination of this quantification through correlation analysis across deep learning models.

      To elaborate, their methodology, inspired by prior studies [6], employs visual inputs featuring a foreground object superimposed onto natural backgrounds. Four types of scene variables, such as object pose, are manipulated to induce variations. To assess the level of factorization within a model, they systematically alter one of the scene variables of interest and estimate the proportion of encoding variances attributable to the parameter under consideration.

      The central assertion of this research is that factorization represents a normative principle governing biological visual representation. The authors substantiate this claim by demonstrating an increase in factorization from macaque V4 to IT, supported by evidence from correlated analyses revealing a positive correlation between factorization and decoding performance. Furthermore, they advocate for the inclusion of factorization as part of the objective function for training artificial neural networks. To validate this proposal, the authors systematically conduct correlation analyses across a wide spectrum of deep neural networks and datasets sourced from human and monkey subjects. Specifically, their findings indicate that the degree of factorization in a deep model positively correlates with its predictability concerning neural data (i.e., goodness of fit).

      Strengths:

      The primary strength of this paper is the authors' efforts in systematically conducting analysis across different organisms and recording methods. Also, the definition of factorization is simple and intuitive to understand.

      Weaknesses:

      This work exhibits two primary weaknesses that warrant attention: (i) the definition of factorization and its comparison to previous, relevant definitions, and (ii) the chosen analysis method.

      Firstly, the definition of factorization presented in this paper is founded upon the variances of representations under different stimuli variations. However, this definition can be seen as a structural assumption rather than capturing the effective geometric properties pertinent to computation. More precisely, the definition here is primarily statistical in nature, whereas previous methodologies incorporate computational aspects such as deviation from ideal regressors [1], symmetry transformations [3], generalization [5], among others. It would greatly enhance the paper's depth and clarity if the authors devoted a section to comparing their approach with previous methodologies [1,2,3,4,5], elucidating any novel insights and advantages stemming from this new definition.

      [1] Eastwood, Cian, and Christopher KI Williams. "A framework for the quantitative evaluation of disentangled representations." International conference on learning representations. 2018.

      [2] Kim, Hyunjik, and Andriy Mnih. "Disentangling by factorising." International Conference on Machine Learning. PMLR, 2018.

      [3] Higgins, Irina, et al. "Towards a definition of disentangled representations." arXiv preprint arXiv:1812.02230 (2018).

      [4] Bernardi, Silvia, et al. "The geometry of abstraction in the hippocampus and prefrontal cortex." Cell 183.4 (2020): 954-967.

      [5] Johnston, W. Jeffrey, and Stefano Fusi. "Abstract representations emerge naturally in neural networks trained to perform multiple tasks." Nature Communications 14.1 (2023): 1040.

      Thanks to the Reviewer for this suggestion. We agree that our initial submission did not sufficiently contextualize our definition of factorization with respect to other related notions in the literature. We have added additional discussion of these points to the Discussion section in the revised manuscript and have included therein the citations provided by the Reviewer (please see the third paragraph of Discussion).

      Secondly, in order to establish a meaningful connection between factorization and computation, the authors rely on a straightforward synthetic model (Figure 1c) and employ multiple correlation analyses to investigate relationships between the degree of factorization, decoding performance, and goodness of fit. Nevertheless, the results derived from the synthetic model are limited to the low training-sample regime. It remains unclear whether the biological datasets under consideration fall within this low training-sample regime or not.

      We agree that our model in Figure 1C is very simple and does not fully capture the complex interactions between task performance and features of representational geometry, like factorization. We intend it only as a proof of concept to illustrate how factorized representations can be beneficial for some downstream task use cases. While the benefits of factorized representations disappear for large numbers of samples in this simulation, we believe this is primarily a consequence of the simplicity and low dimensionality of the simulation. Real-world visual information is complex and high-dimensional, and as such the relevant sample size regime in which factorization offers tasks benefits may be much greater. As a first step toward this real-world setting, Figure 2 shows how decreasing the amount of factorization in neural population data in macaque V4/IT can have an effect on object identity decoding.

      Recommendations for the authors

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Missing citations: The paper could benefit from discussions & references to related papers, such as:

      Higgins I, Chang L, Langston V, Hassabis D, Summerfield C, Tsao D, Botvinick M. Unsupervised deep learning identifies semantic disentanglement in single inferotemporal face patch neurons. Nature communications. 2021 Nov 9;12(1):6456.

      We have added additional discussion of related work, including the suggested reference and others on disentanglement, to the Discussion section in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Here are several small recommendations for the authors, all much more minor than those in the public review:

      I suggest more use of equations in methods sections about Figure 1C and macaque neural data analysis.

      Thanks for this suggestion. We have added new Equation 1 for the method transforming neural data to reduce factorization of a variable while preserving other firing rate statistics.

      In Figure 1-C, the methods indicate that Gaussian noise was added. This is a very important detail, and complexifies the interpretation of the figure because it adds an assumption about the structure of noise. In other words, if I understand correctly, the correct interpretation of Figure 1C is "assuming i.i.d. noise, decoding accuracy improves with factorization." The i.i.d. noise is a big assumption, and it is debated how well the brain satisfies this assumption. I suggest you either omit noise for this figure or clearly state in the main text (e.g. caption) that the figure must be interpreted under an i.i.d. noise assumption.

      We have added an explicit statement of the i.i.d. noise assumption to the Figure 1C legend.

      For Figure 2B, I suggest labeling the x-axis clearly below the axis on both panels. Currently, it is difficult to read, particularly in print.

      We have made the x-axis labels more clear and included on both panels.

      Figure 3A is difficult to read because of the very small task. I suggest avoiding such small fonts.

      We agree that Figure 3A is difficult to read. We have broken out Figure 3 into two new Figures 3 & 4 to increase clarity and sizing of text in Figure 3A.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      To strengthen this work, it is advisable to incorporate more comprehensive comparisons with previous research, particularly within the machine learning (ML) community. For instance, it would be beneficial to explore and reference works focusing on disentanglement [1,2,3]. This would provide valuable context and facilitate a more robust understanding of the contributions and novel insights presented in the current study.

      We have added additional discussion of related work and other notions similar to factorization to the Discussion section in the revised manuscript.

      Additionally, improving the quality of the figures is crucial to enhance the clarity of the findings:

      • Figure 2: The caption of subfigure B could be revised for greater clarity.

      Thank you, we have substantially clarified this figure caption.

      • Figure 3: Consider a more equitable approach for computing the correlation coefficient, such as calculating it separately for different types of models. In the case of supervised models, it appears that the correlation between invariance and goodness of fit may not be negligible across various scene parameters.

      We appreciate the suggestion, but we are not confident in our ability to conclude much from analyses restricted to particular model classes, given the relatively small N and the fact that the different model classes themselves are an important source of variance in our data.

      • Figure 4: To enhance the interpretability of subfigures A and B, it may be beneficial to include p-values (indicating confidence levels).

      As we supply bootstrapped confidence intervals for our results, which provide at least as much information as p-values, and most of the effects of interest are fairly stark when comparing invariance to factorization, p-values were not needed to support our points. We added a sentence to the legend of new Figure 5 (previously Figure 4) indicating that error bars reflect standard deviations over bootstrap resampling of the models.

      • Figure 5: For subfigure B, it could be advantageous to plot the results solely for factorization, allowing for a clear assessment of whether the high correlation observed in Classification+Factorization arises from the combined effects of both factors or predominantly from factorization alone.

      First, we clarify/note that the scatters solely for factorization that the Reviewer seeks are already presented earlier in the manuscript across all conditions in Figures 4A,B and Figure S2.

      While we could also include these in new Figure 7 (previously Figure 5B) as the Reviewer suggests, we believe it would distract from the message of that figure at the end of the manuscript – which is that factorization is useful as a supplement to classification in predictive matches to neural data. Nonetheless, new Figure 6 (old Figure 5A) provides a summary quantification of the information that the reviewer requests (Fig. 6, faded colored bars reflect the contribution of factorization alone).

    1. Author response:

      eLife assessment

      This study presents a valuable finding on sperm flagellum and HTCA stabilization. The evidence supporting the authors' claims is incomplete. The work will be of broad interest to cell and reproductive biologists working on cilium and sperm biology.

      We thank the Editor and the two referees for their time in carefully reviewing our work, and we are grateful for the helpful guidance about how to improve our study. We will supplement the experiments and provide quantitative data guided by the referees’ comments in the revised manuscript. Additionally, we will polish the manuscript and add further context to help readers understand the significance of this work.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      In this paper, Wu et al. investigated the physiological roles of CCDC113 in sperm flagellum and HTCA stabilization by using CRISPR/Cas knockouts mouse models, co-IP, and single sperm imaging. They find that CCDC113 localizes in the linker region among radial spokes, the nexin-dynein regulatory complex (N-DRC), and doublet microtubules (DMTs) RS, N-DRC, and DMTs and interacts with axoneme-associated proteins CFAP57 and CFAP91, acting as an adaptor protein that facilitates the linkage between RS, N-DRC, and DMTs within the sperm axoneme. They show the disruption of CCDC113 produced spermatozoa with disorganized sperm flagella and CFAP91, DRC2 could not colocalize with DMTs in Ccdc113-/- spermatozoa. Interestingly, the data also indicate that CCDC113 could localize on the HTCA region, and interact with HTCA-associated proteins. The knockout of Ccdc113 could also produce acephalic spermatozoa. By using Sun5 and Centlein knockout mouse models, the authors further find SUN5 and CENTLEIN are indispensable for the docking of CCDC113 to the implantation site on the sperm head. Overall, the experiments were designed properly and performed well to support the authors' observation in each part. Furthermore, the study's findings offer valuable insights into the physiological and developmental roles of CCDC113 in the male germ line, which can provide insight into impaired sperm development and male infertility. The conclusions of this paper are mostly well supported by data, but some points need to be clarified and discussed.

      We thank Reviewer #1 for his or her critical reading and the positive assessment.

      (1) In Figure 1, a sperm flagellum protein, which is far away from CCDC113, should be selected as a negative control to exclude artificial effects in co-IP experiments.

      We greatly appreciate Reviewer #1’s insightful suggestion. We will include a negative control in the co-IP experiment to eliminate potential artificial effects.

      (2) Whether the detachment of sperm head and tail in Ccdc113-/- mice is a secondary effect of the sperm flagellum defects? The author should discuss this point.

      Good question. Given that CCDC113 could localized in the sperm neck region, and interact with SUN5 and CENTELIN, CCDC113 may directly function in the sperm head and tail connection. Indeed, PAS staining revealed that Ccdc113–/– sperm heads with abnormal orientation in stages V–VIII seminiferous epithelia (Fig. 6C), and transmission electron microscopy (TEM) analysis further revealed that the disruption of CCDC113 caused the detachment of the destroyed coupling apparatus from the sperm head in step 9–11 spermatids (Fig. 6D). All these results suggest that the detachment of sperm head and tail in Ccdc113–/– mice may be not a secondary effect of the sperm flagellum defects. And we have discuss this point as below:

      CCDC113 could interact with SUN5 and CENTLEIN, but not PMFBP1 (Fig. 7A-C), and CCDC113 was in the cytoplasm in Sun5–/– and Centlein–/– spermatozoa (Fig. 7L, K). In addition, CCDC113 colocalizes with SUN5 in the HTCA region, and the immunofluorescence staining in spermatozoa shows that SUN5 is closer to the sperm nucleus than CCDC113 (Fig. 7G, H). Therefore, SUN5 and CENTLEIN may be more closed to the sperm nucleus compared with CCDC113. PAS staining revealed that Ccdc113–/– sperm heads with abnormal orientation in stages V–VIII seminiferous epithelia (Fig. 6C), and transmission electron microscopy (TEM) analysis further revealed that the disruption of CCDC113 caused the detachment of the destroyed coupling apparatus from the sperm head in step 9–11 spermatids (Fig. 6D). All these results suggest that the detachment of sperm head and tail in Ccdc113–/– mice may be not a secondary effect of the sperm flagellum defects.

      (3) Given that some cytoplasm materials could be observed in Ccdc113-/- spermatozoa (Fig. 5A), whether CCDC113 is also essential for cytoplasmic removal?

      Good question. Unremoved cytoplasm could be detected in spermatozoa by using transmission electron microscopy (TEM) analysis, including disrupted mitochondria, damaged axonemes, and large vacuoles, indicating cytoplasmic removal defects in Ccdc113–/– mice. We have discussed this point as below:

      “Unremoved cytoplasm could be detected in spermatozoa by using transmission electron microscopy (TEM) analysis, including disrupted mitochondria, damaged axonemes, and large vacuoles, indicating cytoplasmic removal defects in Ccdc113–/– mice (Fig. 5A).”

      (4) Although CCDC113 could not bind to PMFBP1, the localization of CCDC113 in Pmfbp1-/- spermatozoa should be also detected to clarify the relationship between CCDC113 and SUN5-CENTLEIN-PMFBP1.

      We are thankful to Reviewer #1 for this suggestion. We will analyze the localization of CCDC113 in Pmfbp1-/- spermatozoa to clarify the relationship between CCDC113 and SUN5-CENTLEIN-PMFBP1.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In the present study, the authors select the coiled-coil protein CCDC113 and revealed its expression in the stages of spermatogenesis in the testis as well as in the different steps of spermiogenesis with expression also mapped in the different parts of the epididymis. Gene deletion led to male infertility in CRISPR-Cas9 KO mice and PAS staining showed defects mapped in the different stages of the seminiferous cycle and through the different steps of spermiogenesis. EM and IF with several markers of testis germ cells and spermatozoa in the epididymis indicated defects in flagella and head-to-tail coupling for flagella as well as acephaly. The authors' co-IP experiments of expressed CCDC113 in HEK293T cells indicated an association with CFAP91 and DRC2 as well as SUN5 and CENTLEIN.

      The authors propose that CCDC113 connects CFAP91 and DRC2 to doublet microtubules of the axoneme and CCDC113's association with SUN5 and CENTLEIN to stabilize the sperm flagellum head-to-tail coupling apparatus. Extensive experiments mapping CCDC13 during postnatal development are reported as well as negative co-IP experiments and studies with SUN5 KO mice as well as CENTLEIN KO mice.

      Strengths:

      The authors provide compelling observations to indicate the relevance of CCDC113 to flagellum formation with potential protein partners. The data are relevant to sperm flagella formation and its coupling to the sperm head.

      We are grateful to Reviewer #2 for his or her recognition of the strength of this study.

      Weaknesses:

      The authors' observations are consistent with the model proposed but the authors' conclusions for the mechanism may require direct demonstration in sperm flagella. The Walton et al paper shows human CCDC96/113 in cilia of human respiratory epithelia. An application of such methodology to the proteins indicated by Wu et al for the sperm axoneme and head-tail coupling apparatus is eagerly awaited as a follow-up study.

      We thank Reviewer 2 for his/her kindly help in improving the manuscript. We now understand that directly detection of CCDC113 precise localization in sperm axoneme and head-tail coupling apparatus (HTCA) using cryo-electron microscopy (cryo-EM) could powerfully strengthen our model. Recent advances in cryo-electron microscopy (cryo-EM) have facilitated the analysis of axonemal structures and determined the structures of native axonemal DMTs from mouse, bovine, and human sperm (Leung et al., 2023; Zhou et al., 2023). However, some high-resolution structures of sperm axoneme and HTCA regions, including those involving CCDC113, remain to be detected. Thus, we would like to discuss this point and regard it as an important follow-up study.

      References:

      Bazan, R., Schröfel, A., Joachimiak, E., Poprzeczko, M., Pigino, G., & Wloga, D. (2021). Ccdc113/Ccdc96 complex, a novel regulator of ciliary beating that connects radial spoke 3 to dynein g and the nexin link. PLoS Genet, 17(3), e1009388.

      Ghanaeian, A., Majhi, S., McCafferty, C. L., Nami, B., Black, C. S., Yang, S. K., Legal, T., Papoulas, O., Janowska, M., Valente-Paterno, M., Marcotte, E. M., Wloga, D., & Bui, K. H. (2023). Integrated modeling of the Nexin-dynein regulatory complex reveals its regulatory mechanism. Nat Commun, 14(1), 5741.

      Leung, M. R., Zeng, J., Wang, X., Roelofs, M. C., Huang, W., Zenezini Chiozzi, R., Hevler, J. F., Heck, A. J. R., Dutcher, S. K., Brown, A., Zhang, R., & Zeev-Ben-Mordehai, T.  (2023). Structural specializations of the sperm tail. Cell, 186(13), 2880-2896.e2817

      Walton, T., Gui, M., Velkova, S., Fassad, M. R., Hirst, R. A., Haarman, E., O'Callaghan, C., Bottier, M., Burgoyne, T., Mitchison, H. M., & Brown, A. (2023). Axonemal structures reveal mechanoregulatory and disease mechanisms. Nature, 618(7965), 625-633.

      Zhou, L., Liu, H., Liu, S., Yang, X., Dong, Y., Pan, Y., Xiao, Z., Zheng, B., Sun, Y., Huang, P., Zhang, X., Hu, J., Sun, R., Feng, S., Zhu, Y., Liu, M., Gui, M., & Wu, J. (2023). Structures of sperm flagellar doublet microtubules expand the genetic spectrum of male infertility. Cell, 186(13), 2897-2910.e2819.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment

      In this useful study, Wang and colleagues investigate the potential probiotic effects of Bacillus velezensis to prevent colitis in a mouse model. They provide solid evidence that B. velezensis limits the growth of Salmonella typhimurium in lab culture and in mice, together with beneficial effects on the microbiota. The work will be of interest to infectious disease researchers and those studying the microbiome.

      Response: Thanks for the constructive comments and the positive reception of the manuscript.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Wang and colleagues presented an investigation of pig-origin bacteria Bacillus velezensis HBXN2020, for its released genome sequence, in vivo safety issue, probiotic effects in vitro, and protection against Salmonella infection in a murine model. Various techniques and assays are performed.

      Response: Thanks for the constructive comments and the positive reception of the manuscript.

      Strengths:

      An extensive study on the probiotic properties of the Bacillus velezensis strain HBXN2020.

      Response: Thank you very much for your reading and comments our manuscript.

      Weaknesses:

      - The main results are all descriptive, without new insight advancing the field or a mechanistic understanding of the observed protection.

      Response: Thank you for your comments and suggestions on our manuscript. In later work, we will focus on exploring the antibacterial substances and bactericidal mechanisms of B. velezensis. We appreciate your review and feedback.   

      - Most of the results and analysis parts are separated without a link or any story-telling to deliver a concise message.

      Response: Thank you for your comments and suggestions on our manuscript. The comments improve the quality and depth of manuscript. Based on your suggestions, we have revised modifications to the entire manuscript.

      The updated contents were presented in the revised manuscript.

      - For the Salmonella Typhimurium-induced mouse model of colitis, it is not clear how an oral infection of C57BL/6 would lead to colitis. Streptomycin is always pretreated (https://link.springer.com/protocol/10.1007/978-1-0716-1971-1_17).

      Response: Thank you very much for your reading and comments our manuscript. The S. Typhimurium ATCC14028 (STm) used in this study is a highly virulent strain. The findings of the predimed trial indicated that mice infected with 107 CFU STm exhibited notable symptoms in the absence of streptomycin pretreatment. Hence, streptomycin was not utilized as a pretreatment for mice in this study. We appreciate your review and feedback and hope that our response adequately addresses your concerns.  

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this study, Wang and colleagues study the potential probiotic effects of Bacillus velezensis. Bacillus species have the potential benefit of serving as probiotics due to their ability to form endospores and synthesize secondary metabolites. B. velezensis has been shown to have probiotic effects in plants and animals but data for human use are scarce, particularly with respect to salmonella-induced colitis. In this work, the authors identify a strain of B. velezensis and test it for its ability to control colitis in mice.

      Response: Thanks for the constructive comments and the positive reception of the manuscript.

      Key findings:

      (1) The authors sequence an isolate for B. velezensis - HBXN2020 and describe its genome (roughly 4 mb, 46% GC-content etc).

      Response: Thanks for the constructive comments and the positive reception of the manuscript.

      (2) The authors next describe the growth of this strain in broth culture and survival under acid and temperature stress. The susceptibility of HBXN2020 was tested against various antibiotics and against various pathogenic bacteria. In the case of the latter, the authors set out to determine if HBXN2020 could directly inhibit the growth of pathogenic bacteria. Convincing data, indicating that this is indeed the case, are presented.

      Response: Thanks for the constructive comments and the positive reception of the manuscript.

      (3) To determine the safety profile of BHXN2020 (for possible use as a probiotic), the authors infected the strain in mice and monitored weight, together with cytokine profiles. Infected mice displayed no significant weight loss and expression of inflammatory cytokines remained unchanged. Blood cell profiles of infected mice were consistent with that of uninfected mice. No significant differences in tissues, including the colon were observed.

      Response: Thanks for the constructive comments and the positive reception of the manuscript.

      (4) Next, the authors tested the ability of HBXN2020 to inhibit the growth of Salmonella typhimurium (STm) and demonstrate that HBXN2020 inhibits STm in a dose-dependent manner. Following this, the authors infect mice with STm to induce colitis and measure the ability of HBXN2020 to control colitis. The first outcome measure was a reduction in STm in faeces. Consistent with this, HBXN2020 reduced STm loads in the ileum, cecum, and colon. Colon length was also affected by HBXN2020 treatment. In addition, treatment with HBXN2020 reduced the appearance of colon pathological features associated with colitis, together with a reduction in inflammatory cytokines.

      Response: Thanks for the constructive comments and the positive reception of the manuscript.

      (5) After noting the beneficial (and anti-inflammatory effects) of HBXN2020, the authors set out to investigate the effects on microbiota during treatment. Using a variety of algorithms, the authors demonstrate that upon HXBN2020 treatment, microbiota composition is restored to levels akin to that seen in healthy mice.

      Response: Thanks for the constructive comments and the positive reception of the manuscript.

      (6) Finally, the authors assessed the effect of using HBXN2020 as prophylactic treatment for colitis by first treating mice with the spores and then infecting them with STm. Their data indicate that treatment with HBXN2020 reduced colitis. A similar beneficial impact was seen with the gut microbiota.

      Response: Thanks for the constructive comments and the positive reception of the manuscript.

      Strengths:

      (1) Good use of in vitro and animal models to demonstrate a beneficial probiotic effect.

      Response: Thank you very much for your reading and comments our manuscript.

      (2) Most observations are supported using multiple approaches.

      Response: Thanks for the comments and the positive reception of the manuscript.

      (3) The mouse experiments are very convincing.

      Response: Thanks for the comments and the positive reception of the manuscript.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Whilst a beneficial effect is observed, there is no investigation of the mechanism that underpins this.

      Response: Thank you for pointing this out. We apologize for any inconvenience caused by the lack of mechanism research of the manuscript. In later work, we will focus on exploring the antibacterial substances and bactericidal mechanisms of B. velezensis. Thank you for your suggestions, and we hope our response has addressed your concerns.

      (2) The mouse experiments would have benefited from the use of standard anti-inflammatory therapies to control colitis. That way the authors could compare their approach of using bacillus spores with the current gold standard for treatment.

      Response: We gratefully appreciate for your valuable comments. The objective of this study is to investigate the potential of B. velezensis spores in mitigating bacterial-induced colitis. In this experiment, animal experimental design referred to the method described in previous studies with slight modifications (10.1038/s41467-019-13727-9, 10.1126/scitranslmed.abf4692). We appreciate your review and feedback. We hope that our response adequately addresses your concerns.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The manuscript by Wang et al. investigates the effects of B. velezensis HBXN2020 in alleviating S. Typhimurium-induced mouse colitis. The results showed that B. velezensis HBXN2020 could alleviate bacterial colitis by enhancing intestinal homeostasis (decreasing harmful bacteria and enhancing the abundance of Lactobacillus and Akkermansia) and gut barrier integrity and reducing inflammation. Overall, the manuscript is of potential interest to readers.

      Response: Thanks for the comments and the positive reception of the manuscript.

      Strengths:

      B. velezensis HBXN2020 is a novel species of Bacillus that can produce a great variety of secondary metabolites and exhibit high antibacterial activity against several pathogens. B. velezensis HBXN2020 is able to form endospores and has strong anti-stress capabilities. B. velezensis HBXN2020 has a synergistic effect with other beneficial microorganisms, which can improve intestinal homeostasis.

      Response: Thanks for the comments and the positive reception of the manuscript.

      Weaknesses:

      There are few studies about the clinical application of Bacillus velezensis. Thus, more studies are still needed to explore the effectiveness of Bacillus velezensis before clinical application.

      Response: Thanks for your suggestion. This study serves as an exploratory investigation before the application of Bacillus velezensis. The main purpose of this study is to explore the potential of Bacillus velezensis in application. We appreciate your review and feedback and hope that our response adequately addresses your concerns.    

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Abstract:

      It is quite wordy, without a clear emphasis on the major point of the study. It is obvious how the host-probiotic-microbiota behaves and why it works out well, which is the key part.

      Response: Thank you for your valuable suggestion. The comments improve the quality of manuscript. We have modified this in the revised manuscript as suggested.

      The updated contents were presented in line 30-32, 34-39 and 41-46 in abstract section of the revised manuscript.

      Please remove "novel", Many previous works have already documented the probiotic Bacillus velezensis. It is also NOT novel species...

      Response: Thank you for your suggestion. We have corrected it as suggested. Please see line 26 in abstract section of the revised manuscript.

      Lines 44-46. The way this conclusion is delivered is inappropriate; it should be clarified exactly according to the supported results.

      Response: Thank you for your valuable suggestion. The comments improve the quality of manuscript. We have corrected this in the revised manuscript as suggested.

      The updated contents were presented in line 44-46 in abstract section of the revised manuscript.

      Introduction:

      Lines 71-71, Lines 75-77, Line 92 "the homeostasis of", please remove.

      Response: Thank you for pointing this out. We have corrected this in the revised manuscript as suggested.

      The updated contents were presented in line 96 in introduction section of the revised manuscript.

      Are the Salmonella loads the key indicator for this model?

      Response: We gratefully appreciate for your valuable comments. In this study, we aimed to evaluate whether B. velezensis can alleviate S. Typhimurium-induced colitis in mice. It has been reported that S. Typhimurium enters the intestine, colonizes and proliferates in the intestinal epithelium, and then breaks through the intestinal barrier to reach the whole body with the blood circulation system, leading to systemic infection. Thereby, the load of Salmonella in the intestine and tissue organs is also one of the key indicators reflecting Salmonella infection. We appreciate your review and feedback and hope that our response adequately addresses your concerns.

      The introduction should really focus on the knowledge gap in general and in a specific field, which is not available in the current version.

      Response: Thank you for your valuable suggestion. The comments improve the depth of the manuscript. We have corrected it as suggested.

      The updated contents were presented in line 53-57, 61-64, 69-75, 85-88 and 97-100 in introduction section of the revised manuscript.

      Results:

      "Genomic Characteristics" of B. velezensis HBXN2020 are separated. There are no links between this work for safety and probiotic effects.

      Response: Thank you for your suggestion. Based on your suggestion, we have revised modifications to the "genomic characteristics" in the results section. Please see line 104-110 and Supplementary Table 2 in revised manuscript and supplemental material.

      Are the AMR and virulent genes available on the chromosome? Is there any gene cluster that codes useful stuff that is linked to probiotic efficacy in vitro and in vivo?

      Response:  Thanks for your suggestion. The comments improve the quality and depth of manuscript. In this study, the HBXN2020 genome contains fragments of AMR and virulence genes. However, the results of antibiotic sensitivity test and safety test showed that HBXN2020 did not exhibit resistance and toxicity. Furthermore, the HBXN2020 genome contains 13 different clusters of secondary metabolic synthesis genes. such as surfactin (genomic position: 323,509), macrolactin H (genomic position: 1,384,185), bacillaene (genomic position: 1,691,549), fengycin (genomic position: 1,865,856), difficidin (genomic position: 2,270,091), bacillibactin (genomic position: 3,000,977) and Bacilysin (genomic position: 3,589,078) (Table S2). These secondary metabolites have been shown to have varying degrees of inhibition on fungi (10.3390/foods11020140), Gram-positive pathogens (10.1371/journal.pone.0251514) and Gram-negative pathogens (10.1007/s00253-017-8095-x). We appreciate your review and feedback and hope that our response adequately addresses your concerns. We have marked the updated contents in the revised manuscript.

      The updated contents were presented in line 108-110 in results section of the revised manuscript and supplementary Table 2 in the revised supplemental material.

      Finally, the raw data (Illumina, Pacbio) should also be provided.

      Response: Thanks for pointing this out. According to your suggestion, we have submitted the raw data of the HBXN2020 genome to the GenBank database, GenBank accession number CP119399.1. We appreciate your review and feedback and hope that our response adequately addresses your concerns.

      The updated contents were presented in line 770-773 in data availability section of the revised manuscript.

      Lines 100-108, please replace this part for a more meaningful investigation that could be possibly supported by the following experimental assays.

      Response: We gratefully appreciate for your valuable comments. The comments improve the quality and depth of manuscript. Based on your suggestion, we try our best to remove some minor results and supplement more meaningful research findings. We appreciate your review and feedback, and have marked the updated contents in the revised manuscript. Please see line 104-110 and Supplementary Table 2 in revised manuscript and supplemental material.

      Lines 119-126, which are not important, did you further check what or which parts make the bacteriostasis?

      Response: Thanks for pointing this out. According to your suggestion, we try our best to remove some minor results by removing unnecessary words and sentences. Furthermore, in the following research, we will focus on exploring the antibacterial substances and bactericidal mechanisms of B. velezensis. We appreciate your review and feedback and hope that our response adequately addresses your concerns. We have marked the updated contents in the revised manuscript.   

      The updated contents were presented in line 122-124 in results section of the revised manuscript.

      "Biosafety"? Is there a standard way to conduct this investigation? please clarify.

      Response: Thank you for pointing out this problem in manuscript. In this experiment, Biosafety assessment of B. velezensis HBXN2020 referred to the method described by Zhou et al. with slight modifications (10.1038/s41467-022-31171-0). We appreciate your review and feedback and hope that our response adequately addresses your concerns.

      The updated contents were presented in line 651-652 in results section of the revised manuscript.

      Why are spores used, not whole bacteria? Please clarify.

      Response: Thanks for pointing this out. We apologize for any incomprehension caused by the use of B. velezensis HBXN2020 spores in manuscript. In this study, mice were treated with B. velezensis by oral gavage, while gastric acid will drastically reduce the activity of B. velezensis. However, spores tolerated strong acidic environments well. Additionally, previous studies have also precedents of using spores (10.1126/scitranslmed.abf4692). Thank you for your comments and feedback and hope that our response adequately addresses your concerns.

      Line 196, line 287, repeated assays were conducted, but the logical link is missing.

      Response: We gratefully appreciate for your valuable comments. We apologize for any inconvenience caused by the organization and coherence of our results section. According to your suggestion, we try our best to improve the manuscript's layout by removing unnecessary words and revising sentences. We would like to express our apologies once again and hope that the revised manuscript meets your expectations. We have marked the updated contents in the revised manuscript.

      The updated contents were presented in line 195-198, 246-248, 256-257 and 285-287 in results section of the revised manuscript.

      Discussion:

      Please shorten it; it is wordy but without focus.

      Response: We gratefully appreciate for your valuable comments. The comments improve the quality and depth of manuscript. According to your suggestion, we try our best to shorten the discussion length by removing unnecessary words and revising sentences. We would like to express our apologies once again and hope that the revised manuscript meets your expectations. We have marked the updated contents in the revised manuscript.

      The updated contents were presented in line 353-355, 358-360, 366-371, 381-385, 395-401, 417-419, 430-438, 459-466, 478-481 and 484-485 in discussion section of the revised manuscript.

      Conclusion:

      Please clarify and rework it.

      Response: Thanks for your suggestion. The comments improve the quality and depth of manuscript. Based on your suggestion, we have now rewritten the conclusion.

      The updated contents were presented in line 492-496 in conclusion section of the revised manuscript.

      Materials and Methods:

      Much more detailed information should be provided.

      Response: Thank you for your suggestion. The comments improve the quality and depth of manuscript. Based on your suggestion, we have revised detailed modifications to the experimental method. We appreciate your review and feedback, and have marked the updated contents in the revised manuscript. Please see line 513-515, 530-533 and Supplementary Table 5 in revised manuscript and supplemental material.

      All previous bacterial sampling and a list of results should be provided as the supplemental document.

      Response: Thank you for your valuable suggestion. The comments improve the quality and depth of manuscript. In this study, we conducted preliminary biological activity testing on 362 isolates of Bacillus against pathogenic bacteria, which included S. Typhimurium ATCC14028, E. coli ATCC35150, S. aureus ATCC43300 and ATCC29213. We found that the antagonistic activity of four strains of BacillusB. subtilis H1, B. velezensis HBXN2020, B. amyloliquefaciens 6-1 and B. licheniformis BSK14)against these pathogenic bacteria, while the rest have no significant activity. So we chose these four strains to further evaluate their antibacterial activity against Gram-negative and Gram-positive pathogens (Supplementary Table 5). Based on the antibacterial test results, we found that B. velezensis HBXN2020 strain had the best antibacterial activity. so we chose B. velezensis HBXN2020 for subsequent experiments. 

      The updated contents were presented in Supplementary Table 5 in supplemental material.

      Minor points:

      All bacterial genera and species should be italicized.

      Response: Thank you for pointing this out. We have corrected this in the revised manuscript as suggested.

      The updated contents were presented in line 26 in abstract section and line 67, 69 in introduction section and line 111 in results section of the revised manuscript.

      Line 39, remove repeated "importantly"

      Response: Thanks for your useful suggestion. We have corrected this in the revised manuscript as suggested.

      The updated contents were presented in line 39 in abstract section of the revised manuscript.

      Lines 55-56, please rewrite.

      Response: Thanks for your suggestion. We have now rephrased the sentence.  

      The updated contents were presented in line 56-57 in introduction section of the revised manuscript.

      The relevant references should be updated, in the right format.

      Response: Thanks for your suggestion. Based on your suggestion, we have revised modifications according to the literature format of eLife magazine.

      The updated contents were presented in reference section of the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Major concerns:

      (1) In Figure 2, the authors make the argument that the increased survival of Bacillus spores at high temperatures and low pH renders the strain useful as a probiotic as it would survive in the gut. However, the gut temperature is not significantly higher than the rest of the body (certainly not 95 degrees). One assumes the pH argument applies to surviving in stomach acid so that spores can travel to the gut. These conclusions should be clarified/revised. The survival in bile salts gastric fluid etc makes more sense.

      Response: Thank you for your suggestion. The comments improve the quality and depth of manuscript. Based on your suggestion, we have revised these conclusions. We would like to express our apologies once again and hope that the revised manuscript meets your expectations. We have marked the updated contents in the revised manuscript.

      The updated contents were presented in line 129-132 in results section of the revised manuscript.

      (2) The overall differences in the microbiota on the stacked bar graphs are difficult to determine. In many cases, it looks like the HBXN2020 does not have a significant effect. The subsequent scattergrams are more convincing. Perhaps the authors can think of a better way to compare composite populations. If not, I suggest moving these stacked graphs to the supplementary information.

      Response: We gratefully appreciate for your valuable comments. The comments improve the quality and depth of manuscript. Based on your suggestion, we have moved stacked graphs to the supplemental material. In addition, we replaced bar graphs with heatmaps, the differences of microbial community composition among different experimental groups were evaluated using the depth of color. We appreciate your review and feedback, and have marked the updated figures in the revised manuscript. Please see Figure 7and 10 in revised manuscript and supplemental material.

      Minor editorial:

      (1) Line 55 - "....antibiotic therapy is...".

      Response: Thank you for your suggestion. We have corrected it as suggested.

      The updated contents were presented in line 56-57 in introduction section of the revised manuscript.

      (2) Line 60 - replace "emergent search" - poor syntax.

      Response: Thank you for your suggestion. The comments improve the quality of manuscript. We have corrected this in the revised manuscript as suggested.  

      The updated contents were presented in line 61-62 in introduction section of the revised manuscript.

      (3) Line 63 - "...play an important...".

      Response: Thanks for pointing this out. We have now rephrased the sentence.

      The updated contents were presented in line 63-64 in introduction section of the revised manuscript.

      (4) Figure 1C is not very useful, simply reinforces the data from 1A and 1B - this can be moved to the supplementary information.

      Response: Thank you for your valuable suggestion. The comments improve the quality and depth of manuscript.

      Based on your suggestion, we have moved figure 1C to the supplemental material. We appreciate your review and feedback, and have marked the updated figures in the revised manuscript. Please see figures in revised manuscript and supplemental material.

      (5) Line 126, "...that the growth of B. velezensis HBXN2020 was relatively stable." What do the authors mean by this? "Stable" implies no increase in biomass, but the growth curve does not indicate this, there was an increase in biomass after which, the culture appeared to reach a stationary phase. This should be clarified.

      Response: Thanks for pointing this out. The comments improve the quality of manuscript. We have corrected this in the revised manuscript as suggested.

      The updated contents were presented in line 122-124 in results section of the revised manuscript.

      (6) In Figure 5 - all the graphs in panel A can be amalgamated into one figure using different colours/symbols.

      Response: Thank you for your suggestion. The comments improve the quality and depth of manuscript. Based on your suggestion, we have merged all the graphics in panel A in Figure 5 into one figure.

      The updated contents were presented in Figure 5 in the revised manuscript.

      (7) The overall cohesiveness of the manuscript could be improved.

      Response: Thank you for your valuable comments. The comments improve the quality and depth of manuscript. We have revised the entire manuscript based on your suggestions. The updated contents were presented in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      There are some issues that following issues require clarification to improve the quality of the manuscript further.

      (1) L.55: Replace "antibiotic therapies" with "antibiotic therapy".

      Response: Thank you for your suggestion. We have corrected it as suggested.

      The updated contents were presented in line 56-57 in introduction section of the revised manuscript.

      (2) "Bacillus" should be modified to italics in the manuscript (see e.g., L. 26, 65, 68, 109).

      Response: Thank you for your suggestion. The comments improve the quality of manuscript. We have corrected this in the revised manuscript as suggested.

      The updated contents were presented in line 26 in abstract section and line 67, 69 in introduction section and line 111 in results section of the revised manuscript.

      (3) The first appearance of bacterial names in the manuscript requires the full English name (see e.g., L. 158, 159, 160).

      Response: Thank you for pointing out this problem in manuscript. We have corrected this in the revised manuscript as suggested.

      The updated contents were presented in line 153-156 in results section of the revised manuscript.

      (4) L.166 and 167: "we evaluated its biological safety in a mouse model" suggest modifying to "we evaluated the biological safety of HBXN2020 in a mouse model".

      Response: Thanks for your suggestion. We have corrected this as suggested.  

      The updated contents were presented in line 163-164 in results section of the revised manuscript.

      (5) L.229: Replace "suggest" with "suggested".

      Response: Thanks for your suggestion. We have corrected this as suggested.  

      The updated contents were presented in line 226 in results section of the revised manuscript.

      (6) L.367: The tense of "can" should be consistent with "demonstrated".

      Response: Thanks for pointing this out. We have corrected this as suggested.

      (7) L.368 and L. 369: Replace "Gram positive and Gram negative" with "Gram-positive and Gram-negative".

      Response: Thanks for your suggestion. We have corrected this as suggested.  

      (8) L.372: Replace "and" with "as well as".

      Response: Thanks for your useful suggestion. We have corrected this in the revised manuscript as suggested.

      The updated contents were presented in line 365 in discussion section of the revised manuscript.

      (9) NCBI accession number of supplementing 16SrRNA sequencing raw data.

      Response: Thank you for your suggestion. We have added it in the revised manuscript.

      The updated contents were presented in line 770-773 in data availability section of the revised manuscript.

      (10) L. 1020 and L. 1073: It's recommended to reduce the word count in the annotations of Figures 5 and 8.

      Response: Thank you for your valuable suggestion. We have corrected it as suggested.

      The updated contents were presented in the annotations of Figure 5 and Figure 8 in figure legends section of the revised manuscript.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      We appreciate the reviewers for their insightful comments, which have helped to improve the manuscript. We provide specific examples and a point-by-point response to all comments, below. Based on the Reviewers’ comments, we revised our manuscript, adding considerable amount of new data (found in Fig. 1A,B, 4E-G, 7C,D, 8C,E, S1B,C, S2C-G, S4C, and Video 1). In the main manuscript text, blue fonts indicate added or revised texts. An additional author (Lauren N. Juga) is added for the newly generated data in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #1: 

      Sekulovski et al present an interesting and timely manuscript describing the temporal transition from epiblast to amnion. The manuscript builds on their previous work describing this process using stem cell models. 

      They suggest a multi-step process initiated by BMP induction of GATA3, followed by expression of TFAP2A, followed by ISL1/HAND1 in parallel with loss of pluripotency markers. This transition was reproduced through IF analysis of CS6/7 NHP embryo. 

      There are significant similarities in the expression of trophectoderm and the amnion. There are also ample manuscripts showing trophoblast induction following BMP stimulation of primed pluripotent stem cells. The authors should ensure that the amnion indeed is only amnion and not trophectoderm (or the amount of contribution to trophectoderm). As an extension, does the amnion character remain after the 48h BMP4 treatment, and is a trophectoderm-like state adopted as suggested by Ohgushi et al 2022?  

      Thank you for this insightful comment. As pointed out, Ohgushi et al. showed that, in their culture method, amnion is first induced, and extended culturing leads to the formation of trophectoderm-like cells (Ohgushi et al., 2022).

      Importantly, we would like to note that our culture system differs substantially from that of Ohgushi et al. in several respects. First our system uses a 3D culture method while Ohgushi et al. employ 2D hPSC monolayers. Second, the two systems are chemically quite distinct. In our Glass-3D+BMP protocol, cells are cultured in mTeSR media (which contains FGF2 and TGFb1) for two days, by which time they generate 3D pluripotent cysts. BMP is then added to the culture medium for 24 hours, followed by another 24 hours without BMP4. In stark contrast, Ohgushi et al. employ A83-01, an Activin/Nodal signaling inhibitor, and PD173074, an FGF signaling inhibitor (a protocol which they call AP). This treatment leads to spontaneous activation of BMP signaling, but it also clearly inhibits Activin/Nodal and FGF signaling pathways, which remain active in our system. As a result of these distinct chemical as well as geometrical culturing protocols, their system produces amnion and trophectoderm, while our system produces exclusively amnion.

      Further analysis of gene expression data provides additional data supporting our contention that our system produces amnion. Though the gene expression profiles of amnion and trophectoderm are quite similar, specific markers of trophectoderm have been identified including GCM1, PSG1, PSG4 and CGB (Blakeley et al., 2015; Meistermann et al., 2021; Ohgushi et al., 2022; Okae et al., 2018; Petropoulos et al., 2016; Yabe et al., 2016). Importantly, while all of these markers are abundantly expressed in the Ohgushi et al. system, bulk RNA sequencing analysis of our Glass-3D+BMP hPSC-amnion cells reveals that none of these markers are detectable. Indeed, SDC1, a marker that Ohgushi et al. claim distinguishes trophoblast from amnion actually decreases (more than 8-fold) as pluripotent cysts transition to amnion in Glass3D+BMP. Finally, Ohgushi et al. report that ISL1, a key marker of specified amnion population, is initially increased in their system, but is reduced to a basal level overtime. In contrast, in Glass3D+BMP hPSC-amnion, ISL1 expression continuously increases with time, and ISL1 protein expression is seen uniformly throughout the amnion cysts. This uniform expression is also seen in CS6/7 cynomolgus macaque amnion. Together, these results support out conclusion that the Glass-3D+BMP system leads to the formation of amniotic cells, and not trophectoderm cells.

      The functional data does not support a direct function of GATA3 prior to TFAP2A and the authors suggest compensatory mechanisms from other GATAs. If so, which GATAs are expressed in this system, with and without GATA3 targeting? Would it not be equally likely that the other early genes could be the key drivers of amnion initiation, such as ID2? 

      We appreciate this helpful comment. We agree that our data do not provide sufficient evidence for the role of GATA3 in early amniogenesis. We also agree that other early genes could be key drivers, and apologize for including our speculation that focuses only on GATA2. GATA2 was selected because, among the other GATAs, GATA2 and GATA3 are the only abundantly expressed GATA factors. This point suggesting a potentially redundant role of GATA2 is now removed from the manuscript (Line#355 of the original manuscript).

      The targeting of TFAP2A displays a very interesting phenotype which suggests that amnion and streak share an initial trajectory but where TFAP2A is necessary to adopt amnion fate. It would again be important to ensure that this alternative fate is indeed in streak and not misannotated alternative lineages, including trophoblast. 

      Is TBXT induced in this setting as well as in the wt situation during amnion induction? This should be displayed as in Figure 3D and would be nice to be complimented by NHP IF analysis.

      We will address these two closely related comments together.

      TFAP2A-KO cysts contain ISL1+ squamous cells as well as SOX2+ pluripotent cells, suggesting that, while the initial focal amniogenesis is seen, subsequent spreading event is not seen. Interestingly, our new data show that TFAP2A-KO cysts display cells with high TBXT expression (Fig. 8E, Line#373-374). This result suggests that, in the absence of TFAP2A, once amnion lineage progression is halted, more primitive streak-like (TBXThigh) lineage emerges. It is important to note that TBXT expression is not seen in the trophectoderm population of cynomolgus macaque peri-gastrula (Sasaki et al., 2016; Yang et al., 2021).

      As suggested, we now include a TBXT expression time course during hPSC-amnion formation in Fig. S2D of the revised manuscript. These data show weak TBXT expression (transcripts) starting at the 24-hr timepoint. However, a clear TBXT protein signal could not be detected using IF (Fig. S2C), likely because TBXT expression is very low (Line#264-265). While statistically significant compared to the 12-hr timepoint, TBXT expression is 31 FPKM +/- 0.8 (standard deviation) at 24-hr and 48 FPKM +/- 6 at 48-hr. These are low expression values compared to, for example, TFAP2A, which displays 572 FPKM +/- 23 at 12-hr and 1169 FPKM +/- 27 at 24-hr, at which TFAP2A is readily detected using IF. While weak nuclear TFAP2A is seen using IF at 6hr (187 FPKM +/- 7), no clear TFAP2A is detected at 3-hr (74 FPKM +/- 7). Another example is ISL1, which displays 758 FPKM +/- 55 at 24-hr and 1505 FPKM +/- 26 at 48-hr, when ISL can be detected using IF. Importantly, we were not able to detect ISL1 protein expression using IF at

      12-hr, at which its expression level is 12 FPKM +/-18. Lastly, we now show that, in the cynomolgus macaque peri-gastrula, while pSMAD1/5+ primitive streak-derived disseminating cells show abundant TBXT expression, no clear TBXT expression is seen in the amnion territory (Fig. S2G, Line#291-293). 

      Together, these results show that while a TBXTlow state clearly emerges during hPSC-amnion development, in wild-type hPSC cultured in Glass-3D+BMP, TBXT levels remain low throughout amnion differentiation. However, in the absence of TFAP2A, a TBXThigh state is seen, suggesting that TFAP2A is critical for suppressing this TBXThigh state in fate spreading cells, perhaps by preventing BMP responding cells from acquiring embryonic lineages (e.g., mesodermal and/or primordial germ cells).

      The authors should address why they get different results from Castillo-Venzor et al 2023 DOI: 10.26508/lsa.202201706  

      Thank you very much for this helpful suggestion, and we now include a section detailing this in the Discussion (Line#410-432). In short, we propose several possibilities. First, culturing conditions are highly distinct. Castillo-Venzor et al. (Castillo-Venzor et al., 2023) utilize initial “pre-mesoderm” conditioning by Activin and CHIR, followed by treating floating embryoid bodies with a growth factor cocktail (BMP, SCF, EGF and LIF). In contrast, our system (Glass-3D+BMP) employs BMP stimulation of pluripotent cysts. Thus, we suspect that, in the PGCLC differentiation condition, cells are conditioned to the pre-mesodermal lineage. Moreover, we propose that amnion fate spreading may not be present in the PGCLC system, perhaps due to differences in geometry (aggregates versus cysts), or due to differing lineage commitment programs. That is, while initial amniogenesis is seen in the PGCLC system, most cells may already be committed to the PGC-like or mesodermal lineages by the time amnion fate spreading can occur. Alternatively, because several cell types (PGC-like, mesodermal and amniotic) co-exist in the culture by Castillo-Venzor et al., PGC-like and/or mesodermal cells may compensate for the loss of TFAP2A.

      Reviewer #2: 

      In this study, Sekulovski and colleagues report refinements to an in vitro model of human amnion formation. Working with 3D cultures and BMP4 to induce differentiation, the authors chart the time course of amnion induction in human pluripotent stem cells in their system using immunofluorescence and RNA-seq. They carry out validation through comparison of their data to existing embryo datasets, and through immunostaining of post-implantation marmoset embryos. Functional experiments show that the transcription factor TFAP2C drives the amnion differentiation program once it has been initiated. 

      There is currently great interest in the development of in vitro models of human embryonic development. While it is known that the amnion plays an important structural supporting role for the embryo, its other functions, such as morphogen production and differentiation potential, are not fully understood. Since a number of aspects of amnion development are specific to primates, models of amniogenesis will be valuable for the study of human development. Advantages of this model include its efficiency and the purity of the cell populations produced, a significant degree of synchrony in the differentiation process, benchmarking with single-cell data and immunocytochemistry from primate embryos, and identification of key markers of specific phases of differentiation. Weaknesses are the absence of other embryonic tissues in the model, and overinterpretation of certain findings, in particular relating bulk RNA-seq results to scRNA-seq data from published analyses of primate embryos and results from limited (though high quality) embryo immunostainings.  

      We are happy that Reviewer #2 agrees that our Glass-3D+BMP model is important for investigating additional roles of amniogenesis, as well as roles of amnion as a signaling hub, due to the purity of the amniotic cell population, and a high degree of synchrony of differentiation.

      We respectfully disagree that the absence of other embryonic tissues in the model is a weakness: rather, we believe it is a strength because this single lineage amnion model allows us to directly (and independently) investigate mechanisms underlying amnion lineage progression. For example, as noted above in our response to Reviewer #1, use of our hPSCamnion model allowed us to see a very specific and interesting phenotype in the absence of TFAP2A (reduced amnion formation and emergence of an alternative lineage), though previous findings by Castilllo-Venzor et al. concluded that amniogenesis is not affected by loss of TFAP2A. We noted that the culture method used by Castillo-Venzor et al. contains several cell types (amniotic, mesodermal and PGC-like), and that amniogenesis may be intact in that model due to compensation by the presence of these other cell types. That is, while cell-cell interactions can indeed be gleaned in culture systems with several cell types, the presence of multiple cell types and their additional signaling inputs can also confound some aspects of mechanistic investigations. We now include a paragraph in the Discussion of the revised manuscript (Line#410-432), in which we detail these ideas, and suggest that, because of the cell purity, our Glass-3D+BMP model enables robust mechanistic examinations, specifically during amnion formation.

      We address Reviewer #2’s point about bulk vs. single cell transcriptomic similarity analysis in Reviewer’s specific point #4 below. We do, however, want to note here that we have performed the same analysis using a 14-day old cynomolgus macaque peri-gastrula single cell RNA sequencing dataset generated by Yang et al. (Yang et al., 2021), and obtained a lineage trajectory (Fig. 4F, Line#265-268) similar to that seen when the Tyser et al. dataset (Tyser et al., 2021) was used (Fig. 4C).

      Importantly, while cynomolgus macaque early embryo samples are limited, we now include additional staining (Fig. S2G). 

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      Provide more confirmation of key findings in more than one stem cell line. 

      We now confirm key findings in the H7 human embryonic stem cell line (Fig. S1C).

      Provide stronger evidence e.g. scRNA-seq to support the existence of intermediate cells or tone down the conclusions.  

      We agree that this is a very important point. In our recent study (Sekulovski et al., 2023), we performed single cell RNA sequencing of Gel-3D, another hPSC-amnion model. In this study, we comprehensively described the transcriptome associated with the “intermediate” cell types, as well as CLDN10 as a marker of these cell types. Moreover, we now include additional data showing the molecular characteristics of the TBXTlow intermediate cells during amniogenesis in hPSC-amnion (Fig. S2C, S2D) and d14 cynomolgus macaque peri-gastrula (Fig 4G, replot of single cell RNAseq by (Yang et al., 2021), Line#264-268).

      Provide more data on the expression of DLX5 in the model. 

      We now provide a DLX5 staining time course in Fig. 7C. We find that, similar to ISL1, prominent DLX5 staining is seen in the focal cells at 24-hr post-BMP. Interestingly, at 48-hr, while some cells show high levels of DLX5, some cells show low DLX5 levels; this is of an interest for future investigations.

      (1) L159 - the authors should repeat more of the key results in at least one other hPSC line, to ensure reproducibility of the method. Figure S1 contains minimal information (one timepoint, three genes, one biological replicate) on a single different hPSC line. 

      We now include additional validation analysis using the H7 human ESC line (Fig. S1).

      (2) Figure 1- it is a little difficult to appreciate cyst formation from images taken at one level in the stack, can the authors perhaps show a 3D rendering or video to display morphogenesis better? 

      We now provide all optical sections of cysts shown in Movie 1.

      (3) Figure 1-did the authors carry out podocalyxin staining? This is a standard marker for lumenogenesis.  

      We now provide PODXL staining (Fig. 1A,1B).

      (4) L248 onwards and Figure 4-I am a little skeptical concerning conclusions drawn from an overlay of bulk RNA-seq onto scRNA-seq UMAP plots. I think the authors need to provide some strong justification for this approach. I would be particularly careful about concluding that cells depicted in Fig 4D represent an intermediate close to primitive streak and even more careful about claiming any lineage relationship between T-positive "primitive streak like intermediates" and the trajectory of cells in the model. UMAP is a dimension-reduction technique for the visualization of clusters in high-dimensional data. It is not a lineage-tracing methodology. It would have been preferable for the authors to present their own scRNA-seq data from the model.  

      We are sorry that it was not clear that our approach to find similarity between bulk and single cell RNA-seq data is largely based on a published work (Granja et al., Nature Biotechnology 2019, (Granja et al., 2019)) named projectLSI. Please refer to our Methods section for details of the implementation and how we modified it for better visualization (addressed in Line#667-676 of the original manuscript, now in Line#718-730). The performance of projectLSI was extensively evaluated in the original article. Furthermore, as pointed out, UMAP is indeed a dimension reduction method that has been widely used in single cell RNA-seq research. In addition to visualizing clusters, trajectory analysis, such as RNA-velocity (which is used in this study), is another successful and widely adapted application of UMAP to gauge fate progression. Therefore, we believe that UMAP can be effectively used as a lineage prediction methodology, and that our use of bulk to single cell transcriptomic similarity analysis leveraging projectLSI is well justified at conceptual and technical levels.

      As illustrated in Fig. 5A, we performed RNA-velocity analysis of the Tyser et al. dataset, and our result clearly predicts a differentiation trajectory from Epiblast, a part of the TBXTlow population shown in Fig. 4D, and, then, to Ectoderm/Amnion cells. Consistent with this bioinformatic result, we now show that some cells show some but weak TBXT expression (at the transcript level) at the 24-hr post-BMP timepoint in control hPSC-amnion (Fig. S2D, Line#264-265). Importantly, our conclusion is drawn from a trajectory based on our time course (0, 0.5, 1, 3, 6, 12, 24, and 48 hours post-BMP treatment) which shows a clear transition from epiblast cells to TBXTlow and then finally to the ectoderm/amnion population. Moreover, using the transcriptomic similarity analysis, we found that the loss of TFAP2A leads to emergence of more primitive streak-like transcriptional characteristics (Fig. 8D). Indeed, using IF, we now show that several fate spreading cells in the TFAP2A-KO cysts are TBXThigh (Fig. 8E, Line#373-374). Thus, the new data provide additional evidence for the successful implementation of this bulk/single cell transcriptomic similarity analysis.

      Together, our bioinformatic and localization analyses show that the Glass-3D+BMP system recapitulates the trajectory found in our Tyser et al. RNA-velocity analysis, further supporting the validity of this differentiation trajectory. To avoid confusion, however, we now omit the “primitive streak-like” phrase when describing the TBXTlow cells because, while they may show some TBXT expression, they are likely intermediate fate transitioning cells. Indeed, a recent study by Ton et al. (Ton et al., 2023) showed that the Tyser et al. Primitive Streak cells consist of a mix of several lineage progressing cells (e.g., Epiblast, Non-neural ectoderm, Anterior or caudal primitive streak, PGC). Therefore, these cells are now specifically described as “TBXTlow” state; TBXThigh cells are described as primitive streak-like state.

      (5) L276 Tyser data do come from a primate model; the authors mean NHP.  

      We now specifically state that the validation is performed in a non-human primate model (Line#280).

      (6) Figure 5-though the immunostaining of the CS6/7 monkey embryos is excellent, the authors should not overinterpret these images. What is shown is not a time course, and one can only infer that a particular pattern of gene expression exists in a spatial sense from these images. In the model (Figure 2), the epiblast markers gradually fade and overlap for a time with emergent amnion markers, but in Figure 5 the transition between epiblast and amnion in the embryo seems pretty sharp, at least in terms of gene expression. There may be a few cells in D that show overlap of SOX2 and TFAP2A, but if the authors want to claim that a transition zone exists, they need to produce stronger evidence. Figure 7 is more convincing but see the next point. 

      Thank you for this insightful comment. We now address the nature of the transitioning boundary cell population extensively in our other recent study (Sekulovski et al., 2023).

      (7) Figure 7 further confuses the issue. A zone at either end of the epiblast is clearly positive for Sox2 and the two amnion markers, clearer than in Figure 5, but why does the marker DLX5 overlap with SOX2 in the embryo (7d) but not the model (7C)? Arguments regarding intermediate cell populations would be greatly strengthened by scRNA-seq data on the model system. 

      In our original manuscript, our DLX5 staining was performed at 48-hr post-BMP, at which SOX2 expression is absent in all cells. Our new analysis at the 24-hr timepoint now shows that DLX5 is expressed in SOX2+ cells (this is now presented in Fig. 7C).

      As stated in the point #6, our recent study comprehensively describes the transcriptomic and spatial characteristics of the transitioning boundary cell population (Sekulovski et al., 2023).

      (8) L357 TFAP2C KO does not resemble intermediate cysts in Figure 2. In Figure 2, both SOX2 and amnion markers are co-expressed in the same cells. In 8C, SOX2 and ISL1 are mutually exclusive.  

      We agree with this comment, and now removed this statement pointing out the resemblance (Line#359 of the original manuscript).

      (9) Figure 8d-the same caveats noted above regarding the interpretation of superposition of bulk RNA-seq data with scRNA-seq UMAP analysis apply here.  

      Please refer to our explanation in point#4.

      Reviewer #3: 

      In this work, the authors tried to profile time-dependent changes in gene and protein expression during BMP-induced amnion differentiation from hPSCs. The authors depicted a GATA3 - TFAP2A - ISL1/HAND1 order of amniotic gene activation, which provides a more detailed temporary trajectory of amnion differentiation compared to previous works. As a primary goal of this study, the above temporal gene/protein activation order is amply supported by experimental data. However, the mechanistic insights on amniotic fate decision, as well as the transcriptomic analysis comparing amnion-like cells from this work and other works remain limited. While this work allows us to see more details of amnion differentiation and understand how different transcription factors were turned on in a sequence and might be useful for benchmarking the identity of amnion in ex utero cultured human embryos/embryoids, it provides limited insights on how amnion cells might diverge from primitive streak / mesoderm-like cells, despite some transcriptional similarity they shared, during early development.  

      We are happy that Reviewer #3 appreciates that our model can be used effectively to identify previously unrecognized amniotic gene activation cascade, providing a comprehensive timecourse transcriptomic resource.

      As detailed below, we address specific concerns raised by Reviewer #3. We now provide additional mechanistic insights into amnion fate progression, and include additional transcriptomic comparisons with a cynomolgus macaque single cell RNA sequencing dataset.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      (1) The authors generated KO cell lines lacking GATA3 and TFAP2A, respectively. Their results showed some disrupted amnion differentiation only in TFAP2A-KO. Therefore, these data do not provide sufficient evidence to support whether these transcription factors are crucial for amnion fate specification. Perhaps an experiment could be done with overexpression of these markers and testing if they could force hPSC to adopt amnion-like fate.  

      Thank you for this insightful comment. We generated cell lines that enable us to inducibly express GATA3 or TFAP2A, and the transgene expression was induced at d2 (when BMP treatment is normally initiated) until d4. However, this inducible expression did not lead to amniogenesis, and cysts maintained pluripotency. Due to the uninterpretable nature, these results are not included in the revised manuscript.

      As detailed extensively in the manuscript, within each cyst, amniogenesis is initially seen focally, then spreads laterally resulting in fully squamous amnion cysts. This is also seen in our previously published Gel-3D amnion model (extensively described in (Shao et al., 2017)). In the absence of TFAP2A, we showed that the focal amniogenesis is observed, but spreading is not seen, suggesting that TFAP2A controls amnion fate progression. Therefore, while TFAP2A is not critical for the amnion fate specification in the focal cells, our results show that TFAP2A indeed helps to promote amniotic specification of cells neighboring the focal amniotic cells. Moreover, in the revised manuscript, we now show that TFAP2A transgene expression in the TFAP2A-KO background restores formation of fully squamous hPSC-amnion, further establishing the role of TFAP2A in amnion fate progression (Fig. 8C of the revised manuscript, Line#362-364).

      (2) The transcriptomic analysis made by the authors provides some comparison between BMPinduced amnion-like cells in vitro and the amnion-like cells from CS7 human embryo in vivo. However, the data set from the human embryo contains only a limited number of cells, and might not provide a sufficient base for decisive assessment of the true identity of amnion-like cells obtained in vitro. It might help if the authors could integrate their bulk sequencing data with other primate embryo data sets.  

      Thank you for this helpful comment. We have now performed our transcriptional similarity analysis using early (day 14) cynomolgus macaque embryo datasets generated in a study by (Yang et al., 2021), and found that the bulk time-course transcriptome of our hPSC-amnion model overlaps with the cynomolgus macaque amniotic lineage progression (Fig. 4F, Line#265268). We also now provide the expression of key markers within the Yang et al. dataset (GATA3, TFAP2A, ISL1, TBXT, DLX5, Fig. 4G, S2F).

      (3) Following the point above, the authors used transcriptomic analysis to identify several intermediate states of cells during amnion differentiation and claimed that there is a primitivestreak-like intermediate. However, this might be an overstatement. During stem cell culture and differentiation, intermediate states showing a mixture of biomarkers are very common and do not imply that such intermediates have any biological meaning. However, stating that amnion differentiation passes through primitive streak-like intermediates, might imply a certain connection between these two lineages, for which there is a lack of solid support. Instead, a more interesting question might be how amnion and primitive streak differentiation, despite some transcriptomic similarity, diverge from each other during early development. What factors make this difference? The authors might further analyze RNA-seq data to provide some insights.  

      Thank you very much for the insightful comments. 

      We understand Reviewer #3’s concern that the intermediate state that we see may not recapitulate a primitive streak-like state. However, in our original manuscript, we described these cells as “Primitive Streak-like” because those cells were annotated as Primitive Streak in the dataset by Tyser et al. Interestingly, a recent study by Ton et al. showed that the Tyser et al. Primitive Streak cells actually consist of a mixture of different cell lineages (e.g., Epiblast, Nonneural ectoderm, Anterior or caudal primitive streak, PGC (Ton et al., 2023)). Therefore, we agree that it was an overstatement to call them “Primitive Streak-like”, and, to avoid confusions, we now label the TBXTlow sub-population found in the Tyser et al. Primitive Streak population as “TBXTlow state” throughout the manuscript.

      Our data indicate that TFAP2A may play a role in controlling the lineage decision between amnion and primitive streak cells that abundantly express TBXT (TBXThigh). In the original manuscript, we included data showing that 48-hr TFAP2A-KO cysts show transcriptomic characteristics similar to some Primitive Streak cells (Fig. 8D). Intriguingly, our new data show that, in the absence of TFAP2A, some TBXThigh cells are indeed seen (Fig. 8E, Line#373-374). These results provide a body of evidence for the role of TFAP2A in promoting the amniotic lineage, perhaps by suppressing the TBXThigh state. This point is now addressed in the Discussion (Line#401-409).

      Additional new data:

      Using Western blot, we now show that GATA3 is absent in the GATA3-KO lines (Fig. S4C). We noticed that this was lacking in the original manuscript.

      We now show that an inducible expression of TFAP2A in the TFAP2A-KO cysts leads to controllike cysts (Fig. 8C, Line#362-364).

      Additional changes:

      Typos were fixed in Fig. 5I – “boundary” and “disseminating” were not spelled correctly.

      Line#350 – we originally noted “GATA3 expression precedes TFAP2A expression by approximately 12 hours”. This was incorrect, and is changed to 9 hours in the revised manuscript. We apologize for this mistake.

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      Castillo-Venzor, A., Penfold, C.A., Morgan, M.D., Tang, W.W., Kobayashi, T., Wong, F.C., Bergmann, S., Slatery, E., Boroviak, T.E., Marioni, J.C., et al. (2023). Origin and segregation of the human germline. Life Sci Alliance 6.

      Granja, J.M., Klemm, S., McGinnis, L.M., Kathiria, A.S., Mezger, A., Corces, M.R., Parks, B., Gars, E., Liedtke, M., Zheng, G.X.Y., et al. (2019). Single-cell multiomic analysis identifies regulatory programs in mixed-phenotype acute leukemia. Nature biotechnology 37, 1458-1465. Meistermann, D., Bruneau, A., Loubersac, S., Reignier, A., Firmin, J., Francois-Campion, V., Kilens, S., Lelievre, Y., Lammers, J., Feyeux, M., et al. (2021). Integrated pseudotime analysis of human pre-implantation embryo single-cell transcriptomes reveals the dynamics of lineage specification. Cell stem cell 28, 1625-1640 e1626.

      Ohgushi, M., Taniyama, N., Vandenbon, A., and Eiraku, M. (2022). Delamination of trophoblastlike syncytia from the amniotic ectodermal analogue in human primed embryonic stem cellbased differentiation model. Cell reports 39, 110973.

      Okae, H., Toh, H., Sato, T., Hiura, H., Takahashi, S., Shirane, K., Kabayama, Y., Suyama, M., Sasaki, H., and Arima, T. (2018). Derivation of Human Trophoblast Stem Cells. Cell stem cell 22, 50-63 e56.

      Petropoulos, S., Edsgard, D., Reinius, B., Deng, Q., Panula, S.P., Codeluppi, S., Plaza Reyes, A., Linnarsson, S., Sandberg, R., and Lanner, F. (2016). Single-Cell RNA-Seq Reveals Lineage and X Chromosome Dynamics in Human Preimplantation Embryos. Cell 165, 1012-1026.

      Sasaki, K., Nakamura, T., Okamoto, I., Yabuta, Y., Iwatani, C., Tsuchiya, H., Seita, Y., Nakamura, S., Shiraki, N., Takakuwa, T., et al. (2016). The Germ Cell Fate of Cynomolgus Monkeys Is Specified in the Nascent Amnion. Developmental cell 39, 169-185.

      Sekulovski, N., Juga, L.L., Cortez, C.L., Czerwinski, M., Whorton, A.E., Spence, J.R., Schmidt, J.K., Golos, T.G., Gumucio, D.L., Lin, C.-W., et al. (2023). Identification of amnion progenitor-like cells at the amnion-epiblast bounday in the primate peri-gastrula. bioRxiv doi:

      10.1101/2023.09.07.556553.

      Shao, Y., Taniguchi, K., Townshend, R.F., Miki, T., Gumucio, D.L., and Fu, J. (2017). A pluripotent stem cell-based model for post-implantation human amniotic sac development. Nature communications 8, 208.

      Ton, M.N., Keitley, D., Theeuwes, B., Guibentif, C., Ahnfelt-Ronne, J., Andreassen, T.K., Calero-Nieto, F.J., Imaz-Rosshandler, I., Pijuan-Sala, B., Nichols, J., et al. (2023). An atlas of rabbit development as a model for single-cell comparative genomics. Nature cell biology 25, 10611072.

      Tyser, R.C.V., Mahammadov, E., Nakanoh, S., Vallier, L., Scialdone, A., and Srinivas, S. (2021). Single-cell transcriptomic characterization of a gastrulating human embryo. Nature 600, 285289.

      Yabe, S., Alexenko, A.P., Amita, M., Yang, Y., Schust, D.J., Sadovsky, Y., Ezashi, T., and Roberts, R.M. (2016). Comparison of syncytiotrophoblast generated from human embryonic stem cells and from term placentas. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America 113, E2598-2607.

      Yang, R., Goedel, A., Kang, Y., Si, C., Chu, C., Zheng, Y., Chen, Z., Gruber, P.J., Xiao, Y., Zhou, C., et al. (2021). Amnion signals are essential for mesoderm formation in primates. Nature communications 12, 5126.

    1. g(L(t))=(D−C)×(L(t)−C)=0(D−C)×((B−A)⋅t+A−C)=0t=(C−A)×(D−C)(D−C)×(B−A)

      This is wrong. The correct solution is a negative fraction that is $$ t = −\frac{(C−A)×(D−C)}{(D−C)×(B−A)} = \frac{(C−A)×(D−C)}{(B−A)×(D−C)} $$

      because $$ g(L(t)) = (D−C)×(L(t)−C) \ = (D−C)×((B−A)⋅t + A − C)\ = ((D−C)×(B−A))⋅t + (D−C)×(A−C) = 0 \ \implies ((D−C)×(B−A))⋅t = −(D−C)×(A−C) \ \implies t = −\frac{(C−A)×(D−C)}{(D−C)×(B−A)} $$

  3. May 2024
    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this article, the authors investigate whether the connectivity of the hippocampus is altered in individuals with aphantasia ¬- people who have reduced mental imagery abilities and where some describe having no imagery, and others describe having vague and dim imagery. The study investigated this question using a fMRI paradigm, where 14 people with aphantasia and 14 controls were tested, and the researchers were particularly interested in the key regions of the hippocampus and the visual-perceptual cortices. Participants were interviewed using the Autobiographical Interview regarding their autobiographical memories (AMs), and internal and external details were scored. In addition, participants were queried on their perceived difficulty in recalling memories, imagining, and spatial navigation, and their confidence regarding autobiographical memories was also measured. Results showed that participants with aphantasia reported significantly fewer internal details (but not external details) compared to controls; that they had lower confidence in their AMs; and that they reported finding remembering and imagining in general more difficult than controls. Results from the fMRI section showed that people with aphantasia displayed decreased hippocampal and increased visual-perceptual cortex activation during AM retrieval compared to controls. In contrast, controls showed strong negative functional connectivity between the hippocampus and the visual cortex. Moreover, resting state connectivity between the hippocampus and visual cortex predicted better visualisation skills. The authors conclude that their study provides evidence for the important role of visual imagery in detail-rich vivid AM, and that this function is supported by the connectivity between the hippocampus and visual cortex. This study extends previous findings of reduced episodic memory details in people with aphantasia, and enables us to start theorising about the neural underpinnings of this finding.

      The data provided good support for the conclusion that the authors draw, namely that there is a 'tight link between visual imagery and our ability to retrieve vivid and detail-rich personal past events'. However, as the authors also point out, the exact nature of this relationship is difficult to infer from this study alone, as the slow temporal resolution of fMRI cannot establish the directionality between the hippocampus and the visual-perceptual cortex. This is an exciting future avenue to explore.

      We thank the reviewer for highlighting our contributions and suggesting that the relationship between visual imagery and autobiographical memory recall is an exciting future avenue.

      Weaknesses:

      A weakness of the study is that some of the questions used are a bit vague, and no objective measure is used, which could have been more informative. For example, the spatial navigation question (reported as 'How difficult is it typically for you to orient you spatially?' - a question which is ungrammatical, but potentially reflects a typo in the manuscript) could have been more nuanced to tap into whether participants relied mostly on cognitive maps (likely supported by the hippocampus) or landmarks. It would also have been interesting to conduct a spatial navigation task, as participants do not necessarily have insight into their spatial navigation abilities (they could have been overconfident or underconfident in their abilities).

      Secondly, the question 'how difficult is it typically for you to use your imagination?' could also be more nuanced, as imagination is used in a variety of ways, and we only have reason to hypothesise that people with aphantasia might have difficulties in some cases (i.e. sensory imagination involving perceptual details). It is unlikely that people with aphantasia would have more difficulty than controls in using their imagination to imagine counterfactual situations and engage in counterfactual thought (de Brigard et al., 2013, https://doi.org/10.1016%2Fj.neuropsychologia.2013.01.015) due to its non-sensory nature, but the question used does not distinguish between these types of imagination. Again, this is a ripe area for future research. The general phrasing of 'how difficult is [x]' could also potentially bias participants towards more negative answers, something which ought to be controlled for in future research.

      The main goal of our study was to examine autobiographical memory recall. Therefore, we used the gold standard Autobiographical Interview, or AI (Levine et al. 2002) and an fMRI paradigm to explore autobiographical memory recall as standardised, precisely, and objectively as possible.

      In addition to these experimentally rigorous tasks, we employed some loosely formulated questions with the intention for people to reflect on how they perceive their own abilities to recall autobiographical memories, navigate spatially, and use their imagination. We agree with the reviewer that these questions are vague and did not have the experimental standard for an investigation into spatial cognition or imagination associated with aphantasia. Nonetheless, we believe that these questions provide important additional insights into what participants think about their own cognitive abilities. In order to set these questions into perspective, we argue in the discussion that spatial cognition and other cognitive functions should be investigated in more depth in individuals with aphantasia in the future.

      As an additional note, all tasks were conducted in German. Thus, we were able to correct the wording of the debriefing question in our revision. We thank the reviewer for bringing this to our attention.

      Strengths:

      A great strength of this study is that it introduces a fMRI paradigm in addition to the autobiographical interview, paralleling work done on episodic memory in cognitive science (e.g. Addis and Schacter, 2007, https://doi.org/10.1016%2Fj.neuropsychologia.2006.10.016 ), which has examined episodic and semantic memory in relation to imagination (future simulation) in non-aphantasic participants as well as clinical populations. Future work could build on this study, and for example use the recombination paradigm (Addis et al. 2009, 10.1016/j.neuropsychologia.2008.10.026 ), which would shed further light on the ability of people with aphantasia to both remember and imagine events. Future work could also build on the interesting findings regarding spatial navigation, which together with previous findings in aphantasia (e.g. Bainbridge et al., 2021, https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cortex.2020.11.014 ) strongly suggests that spatial abilities in people with aphantasia are unaffected. This can shed further light on the different neural pathways of spatial and object memory in general. In general, this study opens up a multitude of new avenues to explore and is likely to have a great impact on the field of aphantasia research.

      We much appreciate the acknowledgment of our work into autobiographical memory employing both the autobiographical interview and fMRI. Furthermore, we hope that our work inspires future research in the way the reviewer outlines and in the way we describe in our manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This study investigates to what extent neural processing of autobiographical memory retrieval is altered in people who are unable to generate mental images ('aphantasia'). Self-report as well as objective measures were used to establish that the aphantasia group indeed had lower imagery vividness than the control group. The aphantasia group also reported fewer sensory and emotional details of autobiographical memories. In terms of brain activity, compared to controls, aphantasics had a reduction in activity in the hippocampus and an increase in activity in the visual cortex during autobiographical memory retrieval. For controls, these two regions were also functionally connected during autobiographical memory retrieval, which did not seem to be the case for aphantasics. Finally, resting-state connectivity between the visual cortex and hippocampus was positively related to autobiographical vividness in the control group but negatively in the aphantasia group. The results are in line with the idea that aphantasia is caused by an increase in noise within the visual system combined with a decrease in top-down communication from the hippocampus.

      Recent years have seen a lot of interest in the influence of aphantasia on other cognitive functions and one of the most consistent findings is deficits in autobiographical memory. This is one of the first studies to investigate the neural correlates underlying this difference, thereby substantially increasing our understanding of aphantasia and the relationship between mental imagery and autobiographical memory.

      We thank the reviewer for highlighting the importance of our findings.

      Strengths:

      One of the major strengths of this study is the use of both self-report as well as objective measures to quantify imagery ability. Furthermore, the fMRI analyses are hypothesis-driven and reveal unambiguous results, with alterations in hippocampal and visual cortex processing seeming to underlie the deficits in autobiographical memory.

      Once again, we thank the reviewer for highlighting the quality of our methods and our results.

      Weaknesses:

      In terms of weaknesses, the control task, doing mathematical sums, also differs from the autobiographical memory task in aspects that are unrelated to imagery or memory, such as self-relevance and emotional salience, which makes it hard to conclude that the differences in activity are reflecting only the cognitive processes under investigation.

      We agree with the reviewer that our control task differs from autobiographical memory in many different ways. In fact, for this first investigation of the neural correlates of autobiographical memory in aphantasia, this is precisely the reason why we chose this mental arithmetic (MA) task. We know from previous studies, that MA is, as much as possible, not dependent on hippocampal memory processes (Addis, et al. 2007, McCormick et al. 2015, 2017, Leelaarporn et al., 2024). The main goal of the current study was to establish whether there are any differences between individuals with aphantasia and controls. In the next investigation, we can now build on these findings to disentangle in more detail what this difference reflects. 

      Overall, I believe that this is a timely and important contribution to the field and will inspire novel avenues for further investigation.

      This highly positive conclusion is much appreciated.

      References

      Addis, D. R., Wong, A. T., & Schacter, D. L. (2007). Remembering the past and imagining the future: Common and distinct neural substrates during event construction and elaboration. Neuropsychologia45(7), 1363-1377.

      Kriegeskorte, N., Simmons, W., Bellgowan, P. et al. Circular analysis in systems neuroscience: the dangers of double dipping. Nat Neurosci 12, 535–540 (2009). https://doi.org/10.1038/nn.2303

      Leelaarporn, P., Dalton, M. A., Stirnberg, R., Stöcker, T., Spottke, A., Schneider, A., & McCormick, C. (2024). Hippocampal subfields and their neocortical interactions during autobiographical memory. Imaging Neuroscience.

      Levine, B., Svoboda, E., Hay, J. F., Winocur, G., & Moscovitch, M. (2002). Aging and autobiographical memory: dissociating episodic from semantic retrieval. Psychology and aging17(4), 677.

      McCormick, C., St-Laurent, M., Ty, A., Valiante, T. A., & McAndrews, M. P. (2015). Functional and effective hippocampal–neocortical connectivity during construction and elaboration of autobiographical memory retrieval. Cerebral cortex25(5), 1297-1305.

      McCormick, C., Moscovitch, M., Valiante, T. A., Cohn, M., & McAndrews, M. P. (2018). Different neural routes to autobiographical memory recall in healthy people and individuals with left medial temporal lobe epilepsy. Neuropsychologia110, 26-36.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      This is a very interesting article that makes a substantial contribution to the field of the study of aphantasia as well as the neural mechanisms of autobiographical memory. I would strongly recommend this manuscript to be accepted (with these minor revisions), as it makes a substantial and well-evidenced contribution to the research, and it opens up many interesting avenues for researchers to explore. I was especially excited to see that the Autobiographical Interview had been paired with an fMRI paradigm, something which this field of research highly benefits from, as there are yet so few fMRI studies into aphantasia. I understand that it is the authors' decision whether to accept or reject any of the revisions I recommend here, but I would like to stress that I encourage accepting the recommended revisions, especially as there are some minor inaccuracies in the manuscript as it currently stands. Finally, I would like to stress that though I am based in the area of cognitive science, am not trained in fMRI imaging techniques, and therefore do not stand in a position where I can comment on the methodology pertaining to this part of the study - I encourage the Editors to seek a second reviewer's opinion on this.

      Thank you for the positive evaluation of our manuscript as well as your comments. We have revised our manuscript according to your important suggestions as further explained below.

      Line 33: "aphantasia prohibits people from experiencing visual imagery". This  characterisation of aphantasia is too strong, especially as the authors use 32 as a cut-off point on the VVIQ, which represents weak and dim imagery. I would recommend using language like 'people with aphantasia have reduced visual imagery abilities', as this more accurately captures the group of people studied. Please revise throughout the manuscript. Please consult Blomkvist and Marks (2023) on this point who have discussed this problem in the aphantasia literature.

      We agree that aphantasics may experience reduced visual imagery abilities. We have revised our wording throughout the manuscript.

      Line 49: The authors conclude that their results 'indicate that visual mental imagery is essential for detail-rich, vivid AM', but this seems to be a bit too strong, for example since AM can be detail-rich with external (rather than internal) detail, and a person could potentially use mnemonic tricks such as keeping a detail-rich diary in order to boost their memory. That visual imagery is 'essential' implies that it is the only way to achieve detail-rich vivid AM, and this does not seem to be supported by the findings. I would recommend rephrasing it as 'visual mental imagery plays an important role in detail-rich, vivid AM' or 'visual mental imagery mediated detail-rich vivid AM'.

      We altered the sentence in Line 49 using one of the recommended phrases:

      ‘Our results indicate that visual mental imagery plays an important role in detail-rich, vivid AM, and that this type of cognitive function is supported by the functional connection between the hippocampus and the visual-perceptual cortex.’

      Line 69: Blomkvist and Marks (2023) have warned against calling aphantasia a 'condition' and this moreover seems to fit with the authors' previous research (Monzel, 2022). Please consider instead calling aphantasia an 'individual difference' in mental imagery abilities.

      Thank you for the suggestion. We have revised our wording throughout the manuscript, avoiding the term ‘condition’.

      Line 72: Add reference for emotional strength which has also been researched (Wicken et al. 2021, https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cortex.2020.11.014).

      We have added the suggested reference in Line 75:

      ‘Indeed, a handful of previous studies report convergent evidence that aphantasics report less sensory AM details than controls (Bainbridge et al., 2021; Dawes et al., 2020, 2022; Milton et al., 2020; Zeman et al., 2020), which may also be less emotional (Monzel et al., 2023; Wicken et al., 2021).’

      72-73: 'absence of voluntary imagery' - too strong as many people with aphantasia report having weak/dim mental imagery on the VVIQ.

      We agree that aphantasics may experience reduced visual imagery. We have revised this notion throughout the manuscript.

      74: Add reference to Bainbridge study which found a difference between recall of object vs spatial memory. This would be relevant here.

      We have added the suggested reference in Line 76:

      ‘Spatial accuracy, on the other hand, was not found to be impaired (Bainbridge et al., 2021).’

      Lines 94-97: The authors mention 'a prominent theory' but it is unclear which theory is referred to here. The article cited by Pearson (2019) does not suggest the possibility that aphantasia is due to altered connectivity between the hippocampus and visual-perceptual cortices. It suggests that aphantasia is due to impairment in the ventral stream, and in fact says that the hippocampus is unlikely to be affected due to spared spatial abilities in people with aphantasia. Specifically, Pearson claims: "Accordingly, memory areas of the brain that process spatial properties, including the hippocampus, may not be the underlying cause of aphantasia." (page 631). The authors further come back to this point in the discussion section (see comment below), saying that the hypothesis attributed to Pearson is supported by their study. I do not disagree with the point that the hypothesis is supported by the data, but it is unclear to me why the hypothesis is attributed to Pearson.

      Thank you for pointing out this inaccuracy. We have edited the text to spell out our entire train of thought (see Lines 96-102):

      ‘A prominent theory posits that because of this hyperactivity, small signals elicited during the construction of mental imagery may not be detected (Pearson, 2019, Keogh et al., 2020). Pearson further speculates that since spatial abilities seem to be spared, the hippocampus may not be the underlying cause of aphantasia. In agreement, Bergmann and Ortiz-Tudela (2023) speculate that individuals with aphantasia might lack the ability to reinstate visually precise episodic elements from memory due to altered feedback from the visual cortex.’

      Line 97: Blomkvist reference should be 2022 (when first published online).

      The article ‘Aphantasia: In search of a theory’ by Blomkvist was first published on 1st July 2022. However, a correction was added on 13th March 2023. Therefore, we had cited the corrected version in this manuscript. However, we agree that the first publication date should be used and edited the reference accordingly.

      Line 116: 'one aphantasic' could be seen as offensive. I would suggest 'one aphantasic participant'.

      We have altered the paragraph according to your suggestion.

      Line 138: In line with the recommendations put forward by Blomkvist and Marks (2023), I would suggest removing the word 'diagnosed', as this medicalises aphantasia in a way that is not consistent with its not being a kind of mental disorder (Monzel et al., 2022). I would say that aphantasia is instead operationalised as a score between 16-32. However, note that Blomkvist (2022) and Blomkvist and Marks (2023, https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cortex.2023.09.004 ) point out that there is also a lot of inconsistency in this score and how it is used in different studies. In your manuscript, I would recommend removing all wording that indicates that people with aphantasia have no experience of mental imagery, as you have operationalised for a score up to 32 which indicates vague and dim imagery. Describing vague and dim imagery as no imagery/absence of imagery is inconsistent (but common practice in the literature).

      Thank you for your suggestion. We have revised the entire manuscript to eliminate any ambiguous meanings regarding the definition of aphantasia. Moreover, we replaced the word ‘diagnosed’ with ‘identified’ in Line 146.

      Line 153: maybe 'correlated with imagery strength' rather than 'measures imagery strength'?

      We have altered the sentence according to your suggestion in Line 160:

      ‘Previous studies have shown that the binocular rivalry task validly correlated with mental imagery strength.’

      Line 162: "For participants who were younger than 34 years, the middle-age memory was replaced by another early adulthood memory". Is there precedence for this? Please add one sentence to explain/justify for the reader why a memory from this time period was chosen.

      To maintain the homogeneous data set of acquiring five episodic autobiographical memories from five different periods of life per one individual, we asked the participants who were at the time of the interview, younger than 34 years old, to provide another early adulthood memory instead of middle age memory, as they had not reached the age range of middle age. According to Levine et al. (2002), younger adults (age < 34 years old) selected 2 events from the early adulthood period. Hence, all participants provided the last time period with memories from their previous year. We have added an additional explanation in this section in Line 170:

      ‘In order to acquire five AMs in every participant, the middle age memory was replaced by another early adulthood memory for participants who were younger than 34 years old (see Levine et al., 2002). Hence, all participants provided the last time period with memories from their previous year.’

      Line 169: "During the general probe, the interviewer asked the participant encouragingly to promote any additional details." Consider a different word choice, 'promote' sounds odd.

      We have altered the sentence according to your suggestion in Line 180:

      ‘During the general probe, the interviewer asked the participant encouragingly to provide any additional details.’

      Line 196-198: the phrasing of these questions could have biased participants toward reporting it being more difficult. Did the authors control for this possibility in any way? The phrasing ‘How easy is it for you to [x]?’ might also be considered in a future study.

      Thank you for pointing this out. These debriefing questions were thought of as open questions to get people to talk about their experiences. They were not meant as rigorous scientific experiments. Framing it in a positive way is a good idea for future research.

      We have edited the manuscript on Line 394-396:

      ‘The debriefing questions were employed as a way for participants to reflect on their own cognitive abilities. Of note, these were not meant to represent or replace necessary future experiments.’

      Line 197: This question is ungrammatical. Is this a typo, or was this how the question was actually posed? What language was the study conducted in?

      All interviews within this study were conducted in German. Hence, the questions listed in this current manuscript were all translated from German into English. We have added this information in the Materials and Methods section in Line 169 as well as restructured the referred questions from Line 208-210:

      ‘All interviews were conducted in German.’

      (1) Typically, how difficult is it for you to recall autobiographical memories?

      (2) Typically, how difficult is it for you to orient yourself spatially? 

      (3) Typically, how difficult is it for you to use your imagination?’

      Line 211: The authors write that participants were asked to "re-experience the chosen AM and elaborate as many details as possible in their mind's eye" was this the instruction used? I think stating the explicit instruction here would be relevant for the reader. If this is the word choice, it is also interesting as the autobiographical interview does not normally specify to re-experience details 'in one's mind's eye'.

      The instructions gi‘en to ’he par’Icipa’ts were to choose an AM and re-experience/elaborate it in their mind with as many details as possible without explaining them out loud. We have clarified this in Lines 221-223.

      ‘For the rest of the trial duration, participants were asked to re-experience the chosen AM and try to recall as many details as possible without speaking out loud.’

      Line 213: Were ‘vivid’ and ‘faint’ the only two options? Why was a 5-point scale (like the VVIQ scale) not used to better be able to compare?

      During the scanning session, the participants were given a button box which contained two buttons with 'vivid' by pressing the index finger and 'faint' by pressing the middle finger. The 5-point scale was not used to avoid confusion with the buttons during the scanning session. We have clarified this in Line 224:

      ‘We chose a simple two-button response in order to keep the task as easy as possible.’

      Line 347: Do the authors mean the same thing by 'imagery strength' and 'imagery vividness'? This would be good to clarify as it is not clear that these words mean the same thing.

      Imagery strength is often used to describe the results of the Binocular Rivalry Task, whereas vividness of mental imagery is often used to describe the results of the VVIQ. Although both tasks are correlated, the VVIQ measures vividness, whereas the dimension of the Binocular Rivalry Task is not clearly defined. We added this information in a footnote on page 10.

      Lines 353 - 356: When the authors first say that aphantasics described fewer memory details than controls, does this refer to external + internal details? Please clarify.

      Lines 353-360: The authors first say that aphantasics report "internal details (M = 43.59, SD = 17.91) were reported more often than external details (M = 20.64, SD = 8.94)" (line 355). But then they say: "a 2-way interaction was found between the type of memory details and group, F(1, 27)= 54.09, p < .001, ηp2 = .67, indicating that aphantasics reported significantly less internal memory details, t(27) = 5.07, p < .001, d = 1.83, but not significantly less external memory details, t(27) = 0.13, p = .898, compared to controls (see Figure 1b)" (line 358). This seems to first say that aphantasics didn't report fewer details than controls, but then that they did report fewer internal details than controls. Please clarify if this is correct.

      Line 383: Results from controls are not reported in this section.

      We have first reported the main effects of the different factors; thus, aphantasics reported less details than controls (no matter of group and type of memory details), the internal details were reported more often than external details (no matter of group and memory period), and more details were reported for recent than remote memories (no matter of group and type of memory details). Subsequently, we report the simple effects for aphantasics and controls separately. To further clarify, we added the following segment in line 360:

      ‘Regarding the AI, we found significant main effects of memory period, F(1, 27) = 11.88, p = .002, ηp2 = .31, type of memory details, F(1, 27) = 189.03, p < .001, ηp2 = .88, and group, F(1, 27) = 9.98, p = .004, ηp2 = .27. When the other conditions were collapsed, aphantasics (M = 26.29, SD = 9.58) described less memory details than controls (M = 38.36, SD = 10.99). For aphantasics and controls combined, more details were reported for recent (M = 35.17, SD = 14.19) than remote memories (M = 29.06, SD = 11.12), and internal details (M = 43.59, SD = 17.91) were reported more often than external details (M = 20.64, SD = 8.94). More importantly, a 2-way interaction was found between type of memory details and group, F(1, 27) = 54.09, p < .001, ηp2 = .67, indicating that aphantasics reported significantly less internal memory details, t(27) = 5.07, p < .001, d = 1.83, but not significantly less external memory details, t(27) = 0.13, p = .898, compared to controls (see Figure 1b).’

      Overall, the results were reported for aphantasics and controls separately in Lines 368-372.

      Line 386: The question does not specify that it's asking about using imagination in daily life, even though this is what results report. I'm not sure that the question implies the use of imagination in daily life, so I would recommend removing this reference here.

      We have removed the “in daily life” since this was not part of the original debriefing question.

      Line 394: Could this slowness in response reflect uncertainty about the vividness?

      Since the reason for this slowness is not known, we have refrained from adding this to the discussion. However, we added this as a short insertion in line 406:

      ‘Moreover, aphantasics responded slower (M = 1.34 s, SD = 0.38 s) than controls (M = 1.00 s, SD = 0.29 s) when they were asked whether their retrieved memories were vivid or faint, t(28) = 2.78, p = .009, possibly reflecting uncertainty in their response.’

      Line 443: Graph E, significance not indicated on the graph.

      After preprocessing, the fMRI data were statistically analyzed using the GLM contrast AM versus MA. The resulting images were then thresholded at p < 0.001, so that the illuminated voxels in Fig. 3 A, B, C, and D show only voxel in which we know already that there is a statistical difference between our conditions. Graph E illustrates only the descriptive means and variance of the significant differences in Fig. 3 C and D. This display is useful since the reader can more easily assess the difference between two conditions and two groups at a glance. For a general discussion on this topic, please also see circular analysis in fMRI (Kriegeskorte et al. 2009)

      Line 521-522: The authors claim that Pearson (2019) forwards the hypothesis that heightened activity of visual-perceptual cortices hinders aphantasics from detecting small imagery-related signals. However, I find no statement of this hypothesis in Pearson (2019). It is unclear to me why this hypothesis is attributed to Pearson (2019). Please remove this reference or provide a correct citation for where the hypothesis is stated. Further, it is not clear from what is written how the results support this hypothesis as this is rather brief - please elaborate on this.

      We attributed this hypothesis to Pearson (2019) according to his Fig. 4, which states: ‘A strong top-down signal and low noise (bottom left) gives the strongest mental image (square), whereas a high level of neural noise and a weak top-down imagery signal would produce the weakest imagery experience (top right).’

      We have edited our manuscript to reflect Pearson better in Lines 543-550:

      ‘In a prominent review, Pearson synthesizes evidence about the neural mechanism of imagery strength (Pearson, 2019). Indeed, activity metrics in the visual cortex predict imagery strength (Cui et al., 2007; Dijkstra et al., 2017). Interestingly, lower resting activity and excitability result in stronger imagery, and reducing cortical activity in the visual cortex via transcranial direct current stimulation (tDCS) increases visual imagery strength (Keogh et al., 2020). Thus, one potential mechanism of aphantasia-related AM deficits is that the heightened activity of the visual-perceptual cortices observed in our and previous work hinders aphantasics to detect weaker imagery-related signals.’

      Line 575: Consider citing Blomkvist (2022) who has argued that aphantasia is an episodic memory condition

      We added the suggested reference in Line 601.

      Line 585: Consider citing Bainbridge et al (2021) https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cortex.2020.11.014

      We have added the suggested reference in Line 612.

      Line 581: It might be relevant here to also discuss non-visual details, which have indeed been investigated in your present study. E.g. the lower emotional details, temporal details, place details, etc.

      We have edited our discussion to reflect the non-visual details better in Line 605:

      ‘In fact, previous and the current study show that aphantasics and individuals with hippocampal damage report less internal details across several memory detail subcategories, such as emotional details and temporal details (Rosenbaum et al., 2008; St-Laurent et al., 2009; Steinvorth et al., 2005), and these deficits can be observed regardless of the recency of the memory (Miller et al., 2020). These similarities suggest that aphantasics are not merely missing the visual-perceptual details to specific AM, but they have a profound deficit associated with the retrieval of AM.’

      Place details are discussed on page 37 onwards.

      Line 605: I agree with this interesting suggestion for future research. It would also be relevant to reference Bainbridge (2021) here who tested spatial cognition in a drawing task and found that aphantasic participants correctly recalled spatial layouts of rooms but reported fewer objects than controls. It might also be worth pointing out that the present study does not actually test for accuracy in spatial cognition, so it could be the case that people with aphantasia feel confident that they can navigate well, but they might in fact not. Future studies relying on objective measures should test this possibility.

      We have added the suggested reference in Line 625.

      Lines 609-614: Is there any evidence that complex decision-making and complex empathy tasks depend on constructed scenes with visual-perceptual details? This hypothesis seems a bit far-fetched without any supporting evidence. In fact, it seems unlikely to be supported as we also know that people with aphantasia generally live normal lives, and often have careers that we can assume involve complex decision-making (see Zeman 2020 who report aphantasics who work as computer scientists, managers, etc). I would recommend that the authors provide evidence of the role of mental imagery in complex decision-making and complex empathy tasks, mediated by scene construction, to support this hypothesis as viable to test for future research. It is also unclear how this point connects to the argument made by Bergmann and Ortiz-Tudela (2023). In fact, Bergmann and Ortiz-Tudela seem to make the same argument as Pearson (2019) does - that aphantasia results from impairments in the ventral stream, but that the dorsal stream is unaffected. However, Blomkvist (2022) argues that this view is too simplistic to be able to account for the variety of deficits that we see in aphantasia. I would recommend either engaging more fully with this debate or cutting it, as it currently is too vague for a reader to follow.

      We have decided to leave the discussion about scene construction and its connection to complex decision making and empathy out of the current manuscript. We have included the argument of Bergmann & Ortiz-Tudela (2023) in the Introduction (Line 101):

      ‘In agreement, Bergmann and Ortiz-Tudela (2023) speculate that individuals with aphantasia might lack the ability to reinstate visually precise episodic elements from memory due to altered feedback from the visual cortex.’

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      In general, I really enjoyed reading this paper.

      Thank you very much for the positive evaluation of our manuscript as well as your comments.

      There were only a few things that I had some concerns about. For example, it was unclear to me whether the whole-brain analysis (Figures 3 and 4) was corrected for multiple comparisons or why only a small volume correction was applied for the functional connectivity analysis. If these results are borderline significant, this should be made more explicit in the manuscript. I don't think this is a major issue as the investigation of both the hippocampus and visual cortex was strongly hypothesis-driven, but it would still be good to be explicit about the strength of the findings.

      For the whole-brain analysis, we applied a threshold of p < .001, voxel cluster of 10, but no other multiple comparisons correction applied. The peak in the right hippocampus did survive the whole-brain threshold but we decided to lower this threshold just for display purposes in Figure 3, so that the readers can easily see the cluster.

      We have made the statistical thresholds more easily assessable for the reader on the following pages:

      Figure 3 (Page 27): ‘Images are thresholded at p < .001, cluster size 10, uncorrected, except (D) which is thresholded at p < .01, cluster size 10, for display purposes only (i.e., the peak voxel and adjacent 10 voxels also survived p < .001, uncorrected).’

      Figure 4 (Page 30): ‘Image is displayed at p < .05, small volume corrected, and a voxel cluster threshold of 10 adjacent voxels.’

      I was wondering whether it would be possible to use DCM to investigate the directionality of the connectivity. Given that there are only two ROIs and two alternative hypotheses (top-down versus bottom-up) this seems like an ideal DCM problem.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion and will consider testing the effective connectivity between both regions of interest in a future investigation. 

      Line 385: typo: 'great' should be 'greater'.

      We have altered the typo from ‘great’ to ‘greater’ in Line 397.

      Line 400: absence of evidence of an effect is not evidence of absence of an effect.

      We agree with the reviewer that this was unclear. We changed the wording in Line 412:

      ‘In addition, aphantasics and controls did not differ significantly in their time searching for a memory in AM trials, t(19) = 1.03, p = .315.’

      Typo line 623: 'overseas'.

      We have altered the mistyped word from ‘overseas’ to ‘oversees’ in Line 647.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This work presents an in-depth characterization of the factors that influence the structural dynamics of the Clostridium botulinum guanidine-IV riboswitch (riboG). Using a single-molecule FRET, the authors demonstrate that riboG undergoes ligand and Mg2+ dependent conformational changes consistent with the dynamic formation of a kissing loop (KL) in the aptamer domain. Formation of the KL is attenuated by Mg2+ and Gua+ ligand at physiological concentrations as well as the length of the RNA. Interestingly, the KL is most stable in the context of just the aptamer domain compared to longer RNAs capable of forming the terminator stem. To attenuate transcription, binding of Gua+ and formation of the KL must occur rapidly after transcription of the aptamer domain but before transcription of the rest of the terminator stem.

      Strengths:

      (1) Single-molecule FRET microscopy is well suited to unveil the conformational dynamics of KL formation and the authors provide a wealth of data to examine the effect of the ligand and ions on riboswitch dynamics. The addition of complementary transcriptional readthrough assays provides further support for the author's proposed model of how the riboswitch dynamics contribute to function.

      (2) The single-molecule data strongly support that the effect of Gua+ ligand and Mg2+ influence the RNA structure differently for varying lengths of the RNA. The authors also demonstrate that this is specific for Mg2+ as Na+ and K+ ions have little effect.

      (3) The PLOR method utilized is clever and well adapted for both dual labeling of RNAs and examining RNA at various lengths to mimic co-transcriptional folding. Using PLOR, they demonstrate that a change in the structural dynamics and ligand binding can occur after the extension of the RNA transcript by a single nucleotide. Such a tight window of regulation has intriguing implications for kinetically controlled riboswitches.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The authors use only one mutant to confirm that their FRET signal indicates the formation of the KL. Importantly, this mutation does not involve the nucleotides that are part of the KL interaction. It would be more convincing if the authors used mutations in both strands of the KL and performed compensatory mutations that restore base pairing. Experiments like this would solidify the structural interpretation of the work, particularly in the context of the full-length riboG RNA or in the cotranscriptional mimic experiments, which appear to have more conformational heterogeneity.

      We thank the reviewer for describing our work “in-depth characterization” of riboG. We agree with the reviewer and we have added two more mutants, G71C and U72C with the mutations located at the KL (Figure 2– figure supplement 8A, 8B, 9A, 9B, Figure 3– figure supplement 6A, 6B, 7A, 7B, and Figure 4– figure supplement 6A, 6B, 7A, 7B). Furthermore, we have performed compensatory mutations, C30G-G71C and A29G-U72C that restore base pairing in the KL (Figure 2– figure supplement 8C, 8D, 9C, 9D, Figure 3– figure supplement 6C, 6D, 7C, 7D, and Figure 4– figure supplement 6C, 6D, 7C, 7D). We added the experimental results in the revised manuscript accordingly as “The highly conserved nucleotides surrounding the KL are crucial for its formation (Lenkeit et al., 2020). To test our hypothesis that the state with EFRET ~ 0.8 corresponds to the conformation with the KL, we preformed smFRET analysis on several mutations at these crucial nucleotides (Figure 2– figure supplement 8–10). Consistent with our expectations, the peaks with EFRET ~ 0.8 was significantly diminished in the riboG-G71C mutant, which features a single nucleotide mutation at site 71 (with 97% nucleotide conservation) in the KL (Figure 2– figure supplement 8A and 8B). It is worth noting that the C30G and G71C mutant, which were initially expected to restore a base pair in the KL, did not successfully bring about the anticipated peak of EFRET ~ 0.8 (Figure 2– figure supplement 8C and 8D). On the other hand, the riboG-U72C mutant exhibited a lower proportion at the state with EFRET ~ 0.8 than riboG-apt. However, the A29G and U72C mutations restored a base pair in the KL, as well as the formation of the KL (Figure 2– figure supplement 9). Furthermore, our investigation revealed that the G77C mutant, involving a single nucleotide mutation at a highly conversed site, 77 (with 97% nucleotide conservation), also hindered the formation of the KL (Figure 2– figure supplement 10). This finding aligns with previous research (Lenkeit et al., 2020) and the predicted second structure of G77C mutation by Mfold (Zuker, 2003)”  ( page 7), “In contrast to riboG-term, both its G71C and C30G-G71C mutants displayed a reduced proportion of the state with EFRET ~ 0.8. Remarkably, the fractions of EFRET ~ 0.8 remained unaffected by the addition of 1.0 mM Gua+ in these mutants. Distinct from riboG-term, no structural transitions between states were observed in the two mutants (Figure 3– figure supplement 6). Regarding the U72C mutant of riboG-term, the mutation at the site 72 had a reduced impact on the KL conformation in the presence of 1.0 mM Gua+ and 2.0 mM Mg2+. However, the increased proportion of EFRET ~ 0.8 in the A29G-U72C mutant of riboG-term suggests that these mutations can restore the base-pairing between sites 29 and 72, as well as facilitate the formation of the KL (Figure 3– figure supplement 7)” ( page 8), and “Upon comparing the G71C and C30G-G71C mutants of the full-length riboG with their wild-type counterpart, it was observed that the wild-type adopted higher proportions of the state with EFRET ~ 0.8 (Figure 4– figure supplement 6). Regarding the U72C and A29G-U72C mutants of the full-length riboG, their behaviors with regards to the peak with EFRET ~ 0.8 were similar to that of their counterparts in riboG-term (Figure 4– figure supplement 7)” ( page 9).

      (2) The existence of the pre-folded state (intermediate FRET ~0.5) is not well supported in their data and could be explained by an acquisition artifact. The dwell times are very short often only a single frame indicating that there could be a very fast transition (< 0.1s) from low to high FRET that averages to a FRET efficiency of 0.5. To firmly demonstrate that this intermediate FRET state is metastable and not an artifact, the authors need to perform measurements with a faster frame rate and demonstrate that the state is still present.

      We thank the reviewer for the great comment. We added smFRET experiments at higher time resolution, 20 ms, as well as lower time resolution (Figure 2– figure supplement 3).  Based on our experimental results, the intermediate state (EFRET ~0.5) exists at the smFRET collected at 20 ms, 100 ms and 200 ms. 

      (3) The PLOR method employs a non-biologically relevant polymerase (T7 RNAP) to mimic transcription elongation and folding near the elongation complex. T7 RNAP has a shorter exit channel than bacterial RNAPs and therefore, folding in the exit channel may be different between different RNAPs. Additionally, the nascent RNA may interact with bacterial RNAP differently. For these reasons, it is not clear how well the dynamics observed in the T7 ECs recapitulate riboswitch folding dynamics in bacterial ECs where they would occur in nature. 

      We thank the reviewer for the comment. We agree with the reviewer that the bacterial and T7 RNAPs may behave differently due to their differences in transcriptional speed, dynamics, interactions, and so on. And we added a statement in the Discussion as “It is worth noting that the RNAP utilized in our study is T7 RNAP, which exhibits distinct characteristics compared to bacterial RNAP in terms of transcriptional speed, dynamics, and interactions. However, Xue et al. have reported similarities between T7 and E. coli RNAP in the folding of nascent RNA. Additionally, Lou and Woodson have provided valuable insights into the co-transcriptional folding of the glmS ribozyme using T7 RNAP (Xue et al., 2023; Lou & Woodson, 2024)” ( page 13–14).

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Gao et al. used single-molecule FRET and step-wise transcription methods to study the conformations of the recently reported guanidine-IV class of bacterial riboswitches that upregulate transcription in the presence of elevated guanidine. Using three riboswitch lengths, the authors analyzed the distributions and transitions between different conformers in response to different Mg2+ and guanidine concentrations. These data led to a three-state kinetic model for the structural switching of this novel class of riboswitches whose structures remain unavailable. Using the PLOR method that the authors previously invented, they further examined the conformations, ligand responses, and gene-regulatory outcomes at discrete transcript lengths along the path of vectorial transcription. These analyses uncover that the riboswitch exhibits differential sensitivity to ligand-induced conformational switching at different steps of transcription, and identify a short window where the regulatory outcome is most sensitive to ligand binding.

      Strengths:

      Dual internal labeling of long RNA transcripts remains technically very challenging but essential for smFRET analyses of RNA conformations. The authors should be commended for achieving very high quality and purity in their labelled RNA samples. The data are extensive, robust, thorough, and meticulously controlled. The interpretations are logical and conservative. The writing is reasonably clear and the illustrations are of high quality. The findings are significant because the paradigm uncovered here for this relatively simple riboswitch class is likely also employed in numerous other kinetically regulated riboswitches. The ability to quantitatively assess RNA conformations and ligand responses at multiple discrete points along the path towards the full transcript provides a rare and powerful glimpse into cotranscriptional RNA folding, ligand-binding, and conformational switching.

      Weaknesses:

      The use of T7 RNA polymerase instead of a near-cognate bacterial RNA polymerase in the termination/antitermination assays is a significant caveat. It is understandable as T7 RNA polymerase is much more robust than its bacterial counterparts, which probably will not survive the extensive washes required by the PLOR method. The major conclusions should still hold, as the RNA conformations are probed by smFRET at static, halted complexes instead of on the fly. However, potential effects of the cognate RNA polymerase cannot be discerned here, including transcriptional rates, pausing, and interactions between the nascent transcript and the RNA exit channel, if any. The authors should refrain from discussing potential effects from the DNA template or the T7 RNA polymerase, as these elements are not cognate with the riboswitch under study.

      We thank the reviewer for describing our work “The data are extensive, robust, thorough, and meticulously controlled. The interpretations are logical and conservative. The writing is reasonably clear and the illustrations are of high quality”. We agree with the reviewer that the bacterial and T7 RNAPs may behave differently due to their differences in transcriptional speed, dynamics, interactions, and so on. And we added a statement in the Discussion as “It is worth noting that the RNAP utilized in our study is T7 RNAP, which exhibits distinct characteristics compared to bacterial RNAP in terms of transcriptional speed, dynamics, and interactions. However, Xue et al. have reported similarities between T7 and E. coli RNAP in the folding of nascent RNA. Additionally, Lou and Woodson have provided valuable insights into the co-transcriptional folding of the glmS ribozyme using T7 RNAP (Xue et al., 2023; Lou & Woodson, 2024)” ( page 14).

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this article, Gao et. al. uses single-molecule FRET (smFRET) and position-specific labelling of RNA (PLOR) to dissect the folding and behavioral ligand sensing of the Guanidine-IV riboswitch in the presence and absence of the ligand guanidine and the cation Mg2+. The results provided valuable information on the mechanistic aspects of the riboswitch, including the confirmation of the kissing loop present in the structure as essential for folding and riboswitch activity. Co-transcriptional investigations of the system provided key information on the ligand-sensing behavior and ligandbinding window of the riboswitch. A plausible folding model of the Guanidine-IV riboswitch was proposed as a final result. The evidence presented here sheds additional light on the mode of action of transcriptional riboswitches.

      Strengths:

      The investigations were very thorough, providing data that supports the conclusions. The use of smFRET and PLOR to investigate RNA folding has been shown to be a valuable tool for the understanding of folding and behavior properties of these structured RNA molecules. The co-transcriptional analysis brought important information on how the riboswitch works, including the ligand-sensing and the binding window that promotes the structural switch. The fact that investigations were done with the aptamer domain, aptamer domain + terminator/anti-terminator region, and the full-length riboswitch were essential to inform how each domain contributes to the final structural state if in the presence of the ligand and Mg2+.

      Weaknesses:

      The system has its own flaws when compared to physiological conditions. The RNA polymerase used (the study uses T7 RNA polymerase) is different from the bacterial RNA polymerase, not only in complexity, but also in transcriptional speed, which can directly interfere with folding and ligand-sensing. Additionally, rNTPs concentrations were much lower than physiological concentrations during transcription, likely causing a change in the polymerase transcriptional speed. These important aspects and how they could interfere with results are important to be addressed to the broad audience. Another point of consideration to be aware of is that the bulky fluorophores attached to the nucleotides can interfere with folding to some extent.

      We thank the reviewer for describing our work as “The investigations were very thorough, providing data that supports the conclusions”. We agree with the reviewer that the bacterial and T7 RNAPs may behave differently due to their differences in transcriptional speed, dynamics, interactions, and so on. And we added a statement in the Discussion as “It is worth noting that the RNAP utilized in our study is T7 RNAP, which exhibits distinct characteristics compared to bacterial RNAP in terms of transcriptional speed, dynamics, and interactions. However, Xue et al. have reported similarities between T7 and E. coli RNAP in the folding of nascent RNA. Additionally, Lou and Woodson have provided valuable insights into the cotranscriptional folding of the glmS ribozyme using T7 RNAP (Xue et al., 2023; Lou & Woodson, 2024)” ( page 14). And we also agree with the reviewer that the lower NTP may affect the transcriptional speed. Regarding the fluorophores, we purposely placed them away from the KL to avoid their influence on the formation of the KL.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Related to weakness 1

      - The authors cite a paper that investigated mutations in the KL duplex but do not include these mutations in their analysis. It is unclear why the authors chose the G77C mutation and not the other mutants previously tested. Can the authors explain their choice of mutation in detail in the text? I also did not see the proposed secondary structure for the G77C mutant shown in Figure 2 -supp 3A in the cited paper, is this a predicted structure? Please explain how this structure was determined. 

      We thank the reviewer for the comment. The reason we chosen the G77C mutation is based on previous report that G77C can disturb the formation of the KL, as we stated in the manuscript as “Furthermore, our investigation revealed that the G77C mutant, involving a single nucleotide mutation at a highly conversed site, 77 (with 97% nucleotide conservation), also hindered the formation of the KL (Figure 2– figure supplement 10). This finding aligns with previous research (Lenkeit et al., 2020) and the predicted second structure of G77C mutation by Mfold (Zuker, 2003)” ( page 7). And the secondary structure for the G77C mutant was predicted by Mfold, which as cited in the manuscript and added in the reference list as “Zuker, M. (2003). Mfold web server for nucleic acid folding and hybridization prediction. Nucleic Acids Research, 31(13), 3406-3415”. 

      - It is not clear to me that the structural interpretation of their FRET states is correct and that the FRET signal reports on the base pairing of the KL in only the high FRET state. The authors should perform experiments with additional mutations in the KL duplex to confirm that their construct reports on KL duplex formation alone and not other structural dynamics. 

      We thank the reviewer for the comment. We have included additional mutations to establish a connection between the high-FRET state to the formation of the KL. The results have been added to the manuscript as “The highly conserved nucleotides surrounding the KL are crucial for its formation (Lenkeit et al., 2020). To test our hypothesis that the state with EFRET ~ 0.8 corresponds to the conformation with the KL, we preformed smFRET analysis on several mutations at these crucial nucleotides (Figure 2– figure supplement 8–10). Consistent with our expectations, the peaks with EFRET ~ 0.8 was significantly diminished in the riboG-G71C mutant, which features a single nucleotide mutation at site 71 (with 97% nucleotide conservation) in the KL (Figure 2– figure supplement 8A and 8B). It is worth noting that the C30G and G71C mutant, which were initially expected to restore a base pair in the KL, did not successfully bring about the anticipated peak of EFRET ~ 0.8 (Figure 2– figure supplement 8C and 8D). On the other hand, the riboG-U72C mutant exhibited a lower proportion at the state with EFRET ~ 0.8 than riboG-apt. However, the A29G and U72C mutations restored a base pair in the KL, as well as the formation of the KL (Figure 2– figure supplement 9). Furthermore, our investigation revealed that the G77C mutant, involving a single nucleotide mutation at a highly conversed site, 77 (with 97% nucleotide conservation), also hindered the formation of the KL (Figure 2– figure supplement 10). This finding aligns with previous research (Lenkeit et al., 2020) and the predicted second structure of G77C mutation by Mfold (Zuker, 2003)”  ( page 7), “In contrast to riboG-term, both its G71C and C30G-G71C mutants displayed a reduced proportion of the state with EFRET ~ 0.8. Remarkably, the fractions of EFRET ~ 0.8 remained unaffected by the addition of 1.0 mM Gua+ in these mutants. Distinct from riboG-term, no structural transitions between states were observed in the two mutants (Figure 3– figure supplement 6). Regarding the U72C mutant of riboG-term, the mutation at the site 72 had a reduced impact on the KL conformation in the presence of 1.0 mM Gua+ and 2.0 mM Mg2+. However, the increased proportion of EFRET ~ 0.8 in the A29G-U72C mutant of riboG-term suggests that these mutations can restore the base-pairing between sites 29 and 72, as well as facilitate the formation of the KL (Figure 3– figure supplement 7)” ( page 8), and “Upon comparing the G71C and C30G-G71C mutants of the full-length riboG with their wild-type counterpart, it was observed that the wild-type adopted higher proportions of the state with EFRET ~ 0.8 (Figure 4– figure supplement 6). Regarding the U72C and A29G-U72C mutants of the full-length riboG, their behaviors with regards to the peak with EFRET ~ 0.8 were similar to that of their counterparts in riboG-term (Figure 4– figure supplement 7)” ( page 9).  

      - For the full-length riboG-136 (Cy3Cy5 riboG in Figure 4), the authors have clearly defined peaks at 0.6 and 0.4. However, the authors do not explain their structural interpretation of these states. Do the authors believe that the KL is forming in these states? It would be helpful to have data on mutations in the KL in the context of the full-length riboG to better understand the structural transitions of these intermediate states. 

      Based on our mutation studies, we proposed that the peak with EFRET ~0.8 corresponds to the conformation with the KL, while the states with EFRET ~0.4 and 0.6 are the states without a stable KL. 

      Related to weakness 2:

      - For the riboG-apt and riboG-term RNAs, the proposed intermediate FRET state (EFRET = 0.5) is poorly fit by a Gaussian and the dwell times in the state are almost entirely single-frame dwells. It is likely that this state is the result of a camera blurring artifact, in which RNAs undergo a FRET transition between two frames giving an apparent FRET efficiency which is between that of the two transitioning states. This artifact arises when the average dwell times of the true states (Elow and Ehigh) are comparable to the frame duration (within a factor of ~5-10; see https://doi.org/10.1021/acs.jpcb.1c01036). To confirm the presence of the intermediate state, the authors should perform at least a few experiments with higher time resolution to support the existence of the 0.5 state with a lifetime of 0.1 s. Alternatively, the data should be refit to a two-state HMM and the authors could explain in the text that the density in the FRET histogram between the two states is likely due to transitions that are faster than the time resolution of the experiment. 

      We thank the reviewer for the great comment. Taking the suggestion into consideration, we performed smFRET experiments with a higher time resolution of 20 ms. As a result, we still detected the intermediate state, supporting that it is not an artifact. The new data has been included in the revised manuscript (Figure 2-figure supplement 3).  

      Related to weakness 3:

      - The authors depict the polymerase footprint differently in some of the figures and it is unclear if this is part of their model. Is the cartoon RNAP supposed to indicate the RNA:DNA hybrid or the footprint of T7 RNAP on the RNA? For example, in Figure 8a there are 8 nts (left) and 9 nts (right) covered by RNAP, and only 6nts in Figure 6 - supp 2A. This is particularly misleading for the EC-87 and EC-88 in Figure 6 - supp 2, where it is likely that this stem is not formed at all and the KL strand is single-stranded. The authors should clarify and at least indicate in the figure legend if the RNAP cartoon is part of the model or only a representation. 

      We thank the reviewer for bringing the issues to our attention. Due to space limitations, we chose to represent the polymerase footprint differently in Figure 8. However, we have included the statement “DNA templates from EC-87 to EC-105 are not displayed in the model” in the legend of Figure 8 to avoid the confusion.

      Moreover, we have corrected the error of 6 nts Figure 6-supplement figure 2.  

      - With a correct 9 bp RNA:DNA hybrid, the EC-88 construct would not be able to form the top part of the P2 stem and the second half of the KL RNA would be single-stranded. In this case, an interaction between the KL nucleotides would resemble a pseudoknot and not a kissing loop interaction. Can the authors explain if this could explain the heterogeneity they observe in the EC-88 construct compared to the riboGapt  RNA?

      Thank the reviewer for the comment. We have added the statement in the revised manuscript as “The T7 RNA polymerase (RNAP) sequestered about 8 nt of the nascent RNA, preventing the EC-88 construct from forming the P2 stem (Durniak et al., 2008; Huang & Sousa, 2000; Lubkowska et al., 2011; Tahirov et al., 2002; Wang et al., 2022; Yin & Steitz, 2002). Consequently, a pseudoknot structure potentially formed instead of the expected KL. This distinction may account for the observed heterogeneity between EC-88 and riboG-apt” ( page 11).

      Other comments:

      (1) It appears that the FRET histograms in the PLOR experiments (Figure 6 and related figures) only show the fits presumably to highlight the overlays. However, this makes it impossible to determine the goodness of the fit. The authors should instead show the outline of the raw histogram with the fit, or at least show the raw histograms with fits in the supplement. 

      We have replaced Figure 6- figure supplements 2-4 to enhance the clarity of the raw and fitted smFRET histograms.  

      (2) The authors should consider including a concluding paragraph to put the results into a larger context. How does the kinetic window compare to other transcriptional riboswitches? Would the authors comment on how the transcription speed compares to the kinetics for the formation of the KL? 

      We thank the reviewer for the comment. We have added the comparison of riboG to other transcription riboswitches to the manuscript as “Nevertheless, the ligand-sensitive windows of riboswitches during transcription vary. In a study conducted by Helmling et al. using NMR spectroscopy, they proposed a broad transcriptional window for deoxyguanosine-sensing riboswitches, whereby the ligand binding capability gradually diminishes over several nucleotide lengths (Helmling et al., 2017). However, more recent research by Binas et al. and Landgraf et al. on riboswitches sensing ZMP, c-di-GMP, and c-GAMP revealed a narrow window with a sharp transition in binding capability, even with transcript lengths differing by only one or three nucleotides (Binas et al., 2020; Landgraf et al., 2022). In line with the findings for the c-GAMP-sensing riboswitch, our study on the guanidine-IV riboswitch also demonstrated a sharp transition in binding capability with just a single nucleotide extension” ( page 14). 

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment in comparing the transcription speed to the kinetics of the KL formation. However, we must acknowledge that we have limited kinetic data in this study to confidently make such a comparison.

      (3) Cy3Cy5 RiboG is a confusing name because it implies that the others are not also Cy3Cy5 labeled. The authors should consider changing the names and being consistent throughout. I suggest full-length riboG or riboG-136. 

      We have changed “Cy3Cy5 riboG” to “Cy3Cy5-full-length riboG” (pages 15 and 16).

      (4) The transcriptional readthrough experiment should be explained when first mentioned in line 109. 

      We have added the citation (Chien et al., 2023) of the transcriptional readthrough experiment to the manuscript as “we noted that the transcriptional read-through of the guanidine-IV riboswitch during the single-round PLOR reaction was sensitive to Gua+, exhibiting an apparent EC50 value of 68.7  7.3 μM (Figure 1D) (Chien et al., 2023)” (page 5). 

      (5) Kd values in text should have uncertainties, and the way these uncertainties are obtained should be explained.

      We have added the uncertainties of Kd values in the revised manuscript ( page 6) and the legend of Figure 2-supplement 6 as “The percentages of the folded state (EFRET ~ 0.8) of Cy3Cy5-riboG-apt were plotted with the concentrations of Gua+ at 0.5 mM Mg2+, with an apparent Kd of 286.0  18.1 μM in three independent experiments”.

      (6) The authors mention "strategies" on line 306, but it is unclear what they are referring to. Are the strategies referring to the constructs (EC-87, etc) or Steps 1-8 in the supplemental figure? Please clarify. 

      We have clarified the confusion by adding “The detailed procedures of strategies 1-8 were shown in Figure 7–figure supplement 1” to the manuscript ( page 12).

      (7) What are the fraction of dynamic traces versus static traces in the cases for the full-length riboG? This would help depict the structural heterogeneity in the population. 

      We have added the fractions of dynamic single-molecule traces of the full-length riboG to Figure 4-supplements 1-5. 

      (8) The labels in Figure 4 (A-E) don't match the caption (A-H). 

      We have corrected the error. 

      (9) The coloring of the RNA strands in Figure 4A should be explained in the figure legend. It could be interpreted as multiple strands annealed instead of a continuous strand. 

      We have revised the legend of Figure 4A by adding “The full-length riboG contains the aptamer domain (black), terminator (red) and the extended sequence (blue). Cy3 and Cy5 are shown by green and red sparkles, respectively”.

      (10) Reported quantities and uncertainties should have the same number of decimal places. In many places, the uncertainties likely have too many significant figures, for example, in Figure 5 and related figures. 

      We have corrected the significant figures of the uncertainties. 

      (11) In Figure 5, A and B should have the same vertical scale to facilitate comparison. 

      We have adjusted Figure 5A to match the vertical scale of Figure 5B in the revised manuscript.

      (12) In Figure 5C-D, the construct from which those trajectories come should be indicated in the legend. 

      We have added the construct to the legend of Figures 5C and D.  

      (13) In Figure 6J, the splines between data points are confusing and can be misleading. They suggest that the data has been fit to a model, but I am not sure if it represents a model. The data points should be colored instead and lines removed. 

      We thank the reviewer for the comment. We have changed Figure 6J by coloring the data points and removing the lines to avoid confusion. 

      (14) Line 330 mentions a P2 structure in Figure 8, but there is no such label in Figure. Please clarify. 

      We thank the reviewer for the comment and have added P2 to Figure 8. 

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Figure 1B. The authors don't seem to address the role of the blue stem-loop following Stems 1 and 2. Is this element needed at all for gene regulation? Does it impact the conformations or folding of the preceding Stems 1 and 2? It seems feasible to disrupt the stem and see whether there is an impact on riboswitch function. 

      We thank the reviewer for the comment. The presence of the sequence which formed blue stem-loop indicates the formation of an anti-terminator conformation in riboG during transcription. Our smFRET data shows that the inclusion of the stem-loop sequence induces additional peaks in the full-length riboG compared to the riboGterm. This indicates that the stem-loop influences the folding of the kissing loop (KL) and potentially also affects the stems 1 and 2.  

      (2) Figure 7 supplement 1, C &D. Maybe I am missing something, but it seems to me in reaction #8 (EC-105, last two lanes), the readthrough percentage is close to 50% based on the gel but plotted in D as 20%. Further, there is a strong effect of guanidine in reaction #8 but that is not reflected in the quantitation in panel D. 

      We thank the reviewer for the comment. The observed discrepancy between reaction 8 in (C) and (D) is from the differential handling of the crude product at the last step (step 17) in gel loading for (C), contrasted with the combination of crude products from steps 16 and 17 to calculate the read-through percentage in (D). We have corrected the discrepancy by replacing Figure 7-Supplement figure 1C (now Figure 7C), and revised the legend to include the following clarification: “Taking into consideration that the 17 step-PLOR reaction exhibited a pause within the terminator region, resulting in a significant amount of terminated product at step 16, crude products from steps 16 and 17 were collected for (C) and (D) of the 17 step-PLOR reaction (Lanes 15 and 16 in C)”.

      (3) Figure 7C is a control that shows the quality of the elongation complexes, which probably should be in the supplement. Instead, in Figure 7 supplement 1, panels C and D are actual experiments and could be moved into the main figure.  

      We thank the reviewer for the comment. We made the adjustment.  

      (4) Figure S7D. I would suggest not labelling the RNA polymerase halt/stoppage sites due to NTP deprivation as "pausing sites" because transcriptional pausing has previously been defined as natural sites where the RNA polymerase transiently halts itself, but not due to the lack of the next NTPs. In this case, the elongating complexes were artificially halted, which is technically not "pausing", as it will not restart/resume on its own without intervention. 

      We have changed the “pausing” to “halting”.  

      (5) Figure 7 is titled "In vitro transcriptional performance of riboG." But the data is actually not about the performance of the riboswitch, or how well it functions. I would suggest the authors revise the title. This is mostly about the observed sensitivity window of the riboswitch to ligand-mediated conformational switching. 

      We have changed the title of Figure 7 to “Ligand-mediated conformational switching of riboG during transcription”.

      (6) Figure 7A, the illustration gives the visual impression that there are multiple RNA polymerases on the same DNA template, which is not the case. 

      We have revised Figure 7A by adding arrows between RNA polymerases to illustrate the movement of a single RNAP, rather than multiple RNAP on the same template.

      (7) It could be informative to compare the guanidine-IV riboswitch with the first three classes (I, II, III), to see how their architectures or gene regulatory mechanisms are similar or different. 

      We thank the reviewer for the comment. We have added the comparison of the guanidine-IV riboswitch to other three guanidine riboswitches to the manuscript as “The guanidine-IV riboswitch exhibits similarities to the guanidine-I riboswitch in gene regulatory mechanism, functioning as a transcriptional riboswitch. Structurally, it resembles the guanidine-II riboswitch through the formation of loop-loop interactions upon binding to guanidine (Battaglia & Ke, 2018; L. Huang et al., 2017; Lin Huang et al., 2017; Lenkeit et al., 2020; Nelson et al., 2017; Reiss & Strobel, 2017; Salvail et al., 2020)” ( page 12).  

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      In addition to the public review items, I provide the following recommendations:

      (1) As a second language speaker, I understand that writing a compelling and concise story may be hard, and we tend to write more than needed or more repetitively. That being said, I do think that the writing could be improved to make it more concise, clear, and avoid repetitions.

      We thank the reviewer for the comment. We re-wrote the abstract and some sentences in the manuscript.

      (2) In the abstract, instead of saying that "...This lack of understanding has impeded the application of this riboswitch", which makes the statement too strong, perhaps, stating something along the lines of "this understanding would assist the application of this riboswitch", would be a better fit. 

      We have re-wrote the abstract, and revised the sentence.  

      (3) Methods should state which RNA polymerase was used. PLOR uses T7 RNA pol, so I assume it was the same. 

      We have added the statement “T7 RNAP was utilized in the PLOR and in vitro transcription reactions except noted” in the Methods ( page 15). 

      (4) The impact statement says comprehensive structure-function, where perhaps comprehensive folding-function would be more appropriate. We are still missing a lot of structural information about this particular riboswitch. 

      We agree with the reviewer, and changed “comprehensive structure-function” to “folding-function” in Impact statement ( page 2).

      (5) Higher Mg2+ concentrations implicated in a lesser extent of the switch of RiboGapt, a sentence talking about it would be useful (how Mg2+ could have promiscuous interaction and interfere with folding). 

      We have added the role of higher Mg2+ to the manuscript as “However, at a higher concentration of 50.0 mM Mg2+, the proportion of the pre-folded and unfolded conformations were more prevalent at 50.0 mM Mg2+ than at 20.0 mM Mg2+. This suggests that an excess of Mg2+ may promote the pre-folded and even unfolded conformations” ( page 6).

      (6) In the investigations of RiboG-term and RiboG, seems like that monovalents from the buffer are sufficient to promote secondary structure. A statement commenting on this would benefit the paper and the audience. 

      We agree with the reviewer and have accordingly revised the manuscript accordingly by adding “This indicates that monovalent ions in the buffer can facilitate the formation of stable guanidine-IV riboswitch” ( page 8).

      (7) Figure 3. Figure goes to panel E and legend to panel H. G and H colors do not correspond to actual figure colors. 

      We made the correction.  

      (8) Figure 4. The same as Figure 3, the panels and figures are divergent.  

      We made the correction.  

      (9) During the discussion, stating that the DNA and RNA pol play a role in folding and ligand binding may be excessive. This could be an indirect effect of the transcriptional bubble hindering part of the nascent RNA from folding, which is something intrinsic to any transcription and not specific to this system. 

      We agree with the reviewer and deleted the statement about the DNA and RNAP play a role in folding and ligand binding.

      (10) PLOR is not properly cited. When introduced in the manuscript, please cite the original PLOR paper (Liu et. al. Nature 2015) and additional related papers. 

      We cited the original PLOR paper (Liu et al, Nature 2015) and the related papers (Liu et al, Nature Protocols 2018). ( pages 4 and 15)

      (11) The kinetics race of folding and binding could be a little more emphasized in discussion, particularly from the perspective of its physiological importance. 

      We agree with the reviewer and deleted the kinetics race of folding and binding from the Discussion part.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews. 

      eLife assessment<br /> This important manuscript follows up on previous findings from the same lab supporting the idea that deficits in learning due to enhanced synaptic plasticity are due to saturation effects. Compelling evidence is presented that behavioral learning deficits associated with enhanced synaptic plasticity in a transgenic mouse model can be rescued by manipulations designed to reverse the saturation of synaptic plasticity. In particular, the finding that a previously FDA-approved therapeutic can rescue learning could provide new insights for biologists, psychologists, and others studying learning and neurodevelopment.

      eLife assessment, Significance of findings

      This valuable manuscript follows up on previous findings from the same lab supporting the idea that deficits in learning due to enhanced synaptic plasticity are due to saturation effects. 

      According to the eLife criteria for assessing significance, the “valuable” assessment indicates “findings that have theoretical or practical implications for a subfield.” We have revised the manuscript to emphasize the “theoretical and practical implications beyond a single subfield” which “substantially advance our understanding of major research questions”, with “profound implications” and the potential for “widespread influence,” the eLife criteria for a designation of “landmark” significance.   

      The most immediate implications of our results are for the two major neuroscience subfields of cerebellar research and autism research. However, as recognized by Reviewer 2, the implications are much broader than that: “the finding that a previously FDA-approved therapeutic can rescue learning could provide important new insights for biologists, psychologists, and others studying learning and neurodevelopment.” We have substantially revised the Discussion section of the manuscript to more explicitly lay out how the central idea of our manuscript-- that the capacity for learning at any given moment is powerfully influenced by dynamic, activity- and plasticity-dependent changes in the threshold for synaptic plasticity over short timescales of tens of minutes to hours --has implications for scientific thinking and experiments on plasticity and learning throughout the brain, as well as clinical practice for a wide array of brain disorders associated with altered plasticity and learning impairment. 

      To emphasize the broad conceptual implications of our research, we have reframed our conclusions in terms of metaplasticity rather than saturation of plasticity throughout the revised manuscript. In our previous submission, we had used the “saturation “ terminology for continuity with our previous NguyenVu et al 2017 eLife paper, and mentioned the related idea of threshold metaplasticity in a single sentence: “Similarly, the aberrant recruitment of LTD before training may lead, not to its saturation per se, but to some other kind of reduced availability, such as an increased threshold for its induction (Bienenstock, Cooper, and Munro, 1982; Leet, Bear, and Gaier, 2022).” However, we now appreciate that metaplasticity is a more general conceptual framework for our findings, and therefore emphasize this concept in the revised manuscript, while still making the conceptual link with the “saturation” idea presented in NguyenVu et al 2017 (lines 236-238). 

      The concept of a sliding threshold for synaptic plasticity (threshold metaplasticity) was proposed four decades ago by Bienenstock, Cooper and Munro (1982) as a mechanism for countering an instability inherent in Hebbian plasticity whereby correlated pre- and post-synaptic activity strengthens a synapse, which leads to an increase in correlated activity, which in turn leads to further strengthening. To counter this, BCM proposed a sliding threshold whereby increases in neural activity increase the threshold for LTP and decreases in activity decrease the threshold for LTP, thereby providing a mechanism for stabilizing firing rates and synaptic weights. This BCM sliding threshold model has been highly influential in theoretical and computational neuroscience, but experimental evidence for whether and how such a mechanism functions in vivo has been quite limited.  

      Our work extends the previous, limited experimental evidence for a BCM-like sliding threshold in vivo in several significant ways, which we now discuss in the revised manuscript:

      First, we analyze threshold metaplasticity at synapses where the plasticity is not Hebbian and lacks the inherent instability that inspired the BCM model. The synapses onto cerebellar Purkinje cells have been described as “anti-Hebbian” because the associative form of plasticity is synaptic LTD of excitatory inputs. This anti-Hebbian associative plasticity lacks the instability inherent in Hebbian plasticity. Moreover, a BCM-like sliding threshold that increases the threshold for associative LTD with increased firing rates and decreases threshold for LTD with decreased firing rates would tend to oppose rather than support the stability of firing rates, nevertheless we find evidence for this in our experimental results. Thus, for cerebellar LTD, the central function of the sliding threshold may not be the stabilization of firing rates, but rather to limit plasticity in order to suppress the overwrite of new memories or to allocate different memories to the synapses of different Purkinje cells. 

      Second, we analyze the influence of a BCM-like sliding threshold for plasticity on behavioral learning. Most previous evidence for the BCM model in vivo has derived from studies of the effects of sensory deprivation (e.g., monocular occlusion) on the functional connectivity of sensory circuits (Kirkwood et al., 1996; Desai et al. 2002; Fong et al., 2021) rather than on learning per se.  

      Third, our results provide evidence for major changes in the threshold for plasticity over short time scales and with more subtle manipulations of neural activity than used in previous studies, with practical implications for clinical application. Previously, metaplasticity has been demonstrated with sensory deprivation over multiple days (Kirkwood et al., 1996; Desai et al. 2002) or with drastic changes in neural activity, such as with TTX in the retina (Fong et al, 2021), TMS (Hamada et al 2008), or high frequency electrical stimulation in vitro (Holland & Wagner 1998; Montgomery & Madison 2002) or in vivo (Abraham et al 2001). In contrast, we provide evidence for metaplasticity induced by 30 min of behavioral manipulation (pre-training) and by the relatively subtle pharmacological manipulation of activity with systemic administration of diazepam, a drug approved for humans. Thus, our work contributes not only conceptually to understanding the function of threshold metaplasticity in vivo, but also offers practical observations that could pave the way for novel therapeutic interventions.  

      Fourth, whereas efforts to enhance plasticity and learning have largely focused on increasing the excitability of neurons during learning to help cross the threshold for plasticity (e.g., Albergaria et al., 2018; Yamaguchi et al., 2020; Le Friec et al., 2017), we take the opposite, somewhat counterintuitive approach of inhibiting the excitability of neurons during a period before learning to reset the threshold for plasticity to a state compatible with new learning. To our knowledge, the only other application of such an approach in an animal model of a brain disorder has been inhibiting peripheral (retinal) activity with TTX for treatment of amblyopia (Fong et al, 2021). Our findings from CNS inhibition with a single systemic dose of diazepam greatly expands the potential applications, which could readily be tested in other mouse models of human disorders, and other learning deficits. Even in cases where the specific synaptic impairments and circuitry are less fully understood, the impact of suppressing neural activity during a period before training to reduce the threshold for plasticity could be empirically tested.  

      Fifth, our work extends the consideration of a BCM-like sliding threshold for plasticity to the cerebellum, whereas previous work has focused on models and experimental studies of forebrain circuits. Currently there is a surge of interest in the contribution of the cerebellum to functions and brain disorders previously ascribed to forebrain, hence we anticipate broad interest in this work. 

      Sixth, our results suggest that the history of plasticity rather than the history of firing rates may be the homeostat controlling the threshold for plasticity, at least at the synapses under consideration. Diazepam pre-treatment only enhanced learning in the L7-Fmr1 KO mice with a low “baseline” threshold for plasticity, as measured in vitro, and not WT mice. This suggests it is not the neural activity per se that drives the change in threshold for plasticity, but the interaction of activity with the plasticity mechanism.

      In the revised Discussion, we make all of the above points, to make the implications more clear to readers.  

      The broad interest in this topic is illustrated by two concrete examples. First, an abstract of this work was honored with selection for oral presentation at the November 2023 Symposium of the Molecular and Cellular Cognition Society, a conceptually wide-ranging organization with thousands of members worldwide. Second, the most closely related published work on activity-dependent metaplasticity in vivo, the Fong et al 2021 eLife paper demonstrating reversal of amblyopia by suppression of activity in the retina by TTX, attracted such broad interest, not just of professional scientists, but also the general public, as to be reported on National Public Radio’s All Things Considered, with an audience of 11.9 million people worldwide.  

      In considering the potential of this work for widespread influence, it is important to note that activitydriven changes in the threshold for plasticity could very well be a general property of most if not all synapses, yet very little is known about its function in vivo, especially during learning.  Therefore, the seminal conceptual and practical advances described above have the potential for profound implications throughout neuroscience, psychiatry, neurology and computer science/AI, the eLife criterion for designation as “landmark” in significance. We respectfully request that the reviewers and editor reassess the significance of our findings in light of our much-improved discussion of the broad significance of the work.

      eLife assessment, Strength of support

      Convincing evidence is presented that behavioral learning deficits associated with enhanced synaptic plasticity in a transgenic mouse model can be rescued by manipulations designed to reverse the saturation of synaptic plasticity. In particular, the finding that a previously FDA-approved therapeutic can rescue learning could provide important new insights for biologists, psychologists, and others studying learning and neurodevelopment.

      The designation of “Convincing” indicates “methodology in line with current state-of the-art.” In the revised Discussion, we more clearly highlight that our evidence is “more rigorous than current state-ofthe-art” in several respects, thereby meeting the eLife criterion for “Compelling”:

      (1) Comparison of learning deficits and effects of behavioral and pharmacological pretreatment across five closely related oculomotor learning tasks, which all depend on the same region of the cerebellum (the flocculus), but which previous work has found to vary in their dependence on LTD at the cerebellar parallel fiber-to-Purkinje cell synapses. 

      The “state-of-the-art” behavioral standard in the field of learning is assessment of a single learning task that depends on a given brain area, with the implicit or explicit assumption that the task chosen is representative of “cerebellum-dependent learning” or hippocampus-, amygdala-, basal ganglia-, cortex- dependent learning, etc. Sometimes there is a no-learning behavioral control. 

      Our study exceeds this standard by comparing across many different closely related learning tasks, which all depend on the cerebellar flocculus and other shared vestibular, visual, and oculomotor circuitry, but vary in their dependence on LTD at the cerebellar parallel fiber-to-Purkinje cell synapses. In the original submission, we reported results for high-frequency VOR-increase learning that were dramatically different than for three other VOR learning tasks for which there is less evidence for a role of LTD. Reviewer 2 noted, “the specificity of the effects to forms of plasticity previously shown to require LTD is remarkable.” In the revised manuscript, we provide new data for a second oculomotor learning task in which LTD has been implicated, OKR adaptation, with very similar results as for high-frequency VORincrease learning. The remarkable specificity of both the learning deficits and the effects of pre-training manipulations, in two different lines of mice, for the two specific learning tasks in which LTD has been most strongly implicated, and not the other three oculomotor learning tasks, substantially strengthens the evidence for the conclusion that the learning deficits and effects of pre-training are related specifically to the lower threshold for LTD, rather than the result of some other effect of the gene KO or pre-treatment on the cerebellar or oculomotor circuitry (discussed on lines 270-290 of revised manuscript). 

      (2) Replication of findings in more than one line of mice, targeting distinct signaling pathways, with a common impact of enhancing LTD at the cerebellar PF-Purkinje cell synapses.  

      State-of-the-art is to report the effects of one specific molecular signaling pathway on behavior. 

      In the first part of this Research Advance, we replicate the findings of Nguyen-Vu et al 2017 for a completely different line of mice with enhanced LTD at the parallel fiber-to-Purkinje cell synapses. Like the comparison across LTD-dependent and LTD-independent oculomotor learning tasks, the comparison across completely different lines of mice with enhanced LTD strengthens the evidence that the shared behavioral phenotypes are a reflection of the state of LTD rather than other “off-target” effects of each mutation (discussed on lines 291-309 of revised manuscript).

      (3) Reversal of learning impairments with more than one type of treatment. 

      State-of-the-art is to be able to reverse a learning deficit or other functional impairment in an animal model of a brain disorder with a single treatment; indeed, success in this respect is viewed as wildly exciting, as evidenced by the reception by the scientific and lay communities of the Fong et al, 2021 eLife report of reversal of amblyopia by TTX treatment of the retina. 

      In the current work, we demonstrate reversal of learning deficits with two different types of treatment during the period before training, one behavioral and one pharmacological. The current diazepam pretreatment results provide a fundamentally new type of evidence for the hypothesis that the threshold for LTD and LTD-dependent learning varies with the recent history of activity in the circuit, complementing the evidence from behavioral and optogenetic pre-training approaches used previously in Nguyen-Vu et al, 2017 (discussed on lines 151-158 and 246-255 of revised manuscript).

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Shakhawat et al., investigated how enhancement of plasticity and impairment could result in the same behavioral phenotype. The authors tested the hypothesis that learning impairments result from saturation of plasticity mechanisms and had previously tested this hypothesis using mice lacking two class I major histocompatibility molecules. The current study extends this work by testing the saturation hypothesis in a Purkinje-cell (L7) specific Fmr1 knockout mouse mice, which have enhanced parallel fiber-Purkinje cell LTD. The authors found that L7-Fmr1 knockout mice are impaired on an oculomotor learning task and both pre-training, to reverse LTD, and diazepam, to suppress neural activity, eliminated the deficit when compared to controls.

      Strengths:

      This study tests the "saturation hypothesis" to understand plasticity in learning using a well-known behavior task, VOR, and an additional genetic mouse line with a cerebellar cell-specific target, L7-Fmr1 KO. This hypothesis is of interest to the community as it evokes a novel inquisition into LTD that has not been examined previously.

      Utilizing a cell-specific mouse line that has been previously used as a genetic model to study Fragile X syndrome is a unique way to study the role of Purkinje cells and the Fmr1 gene. This increases the understanding in the field in regards to Fragile X syndrome and LTD.

      The VOR task is a classic behavior task that is well understood, therefore using this metric is very reliable for testing new animal models and treatment strategies. The effects of pretraining are clearly robust and this analysis technique could be applied across different behavior data sets.

      The rescue shown using diazepam is very interesting as this is a therapeutic that could be used in clinical populations as it is already approved.

      There was a proper use of controls and all animal information was described. The statistical analysis and figures are clear and well describe the results.

      We thank the reviewer for summarizing the main strengths of our original submission. We have further strengthened the revised submission by 

      (1) more fully discussing the broad conceptual implications, as outlined above; 

      (2) adding additional new data (Fig. 5) showing that another LTD-dependent oculomotor learning task, optokinetic reflex (OKR) adaptation, is impaired in the L7-Fmr1 KO mice and rescued by pre-treatment with diazepam, as we had already shown for high-frequency VOR increase learning;  3) responding to the specific points raised by the reviewers, as detailed below.

      Weaknesses:

      While the proposed hypothesis is tested using genetic animal models and the VOR task, LTD itself is not measured. This study would have benefited from a direct analysis of LTD in the cerebellar cortex in the proposed circuits.

      Our current experiments were motivated by the direct analysis of cerebellar LTD in Fmr1 knock out mice that was already published (Koekkoek et al., 2005). In that previous work, LTD was analyzed in both Purkinje cell selective L7-Fmr1 KO mice (Koekkoek et al., 2005; Fig. 4D), as used in our study, and global Fmr1 knock out mice (Koekkoek et al., 2005; Fig. 4B). Both lines were found to have enhanced LTD, as cited in the Introduction of our manuscript (lines 48-51, 63-64). The goal of our current study was to build on this previous work by analyzing the behavioral correlates of the findings from this previous, direct analysis of LTD. 

      Diazepam was shown to rescue learning in L7-Fmr1 KO mice, but this drug is a benzodiazepine and can cause a physical dependence. While the concentrations used in this study were quite low and animals were dosed acutely, potential side-effects of the drug were not examined, including any possible withdrawal. 

      In humans, diazepam (valium) is one of the most frequently prescribed drugs in the world, and the side effects and withdrawal symptoms have been extensively studied and documented.1 Withdrawal symptoms are generally not observed with treatments of less than 2 weeks (Brett and Murnion, 2015). After longterm treatments tapering of the dosage is recommended to mitigate withdrawal (Brett and Murnion, 2015 and https://americanaddictioncenters.org/valium-treatment/withdrawal-duration). The extensive data on the safety of diazepam in humans lowers the barrier to potential clinical translation of our basic science findings, although we emphasize that our own expertise is scientific, and translation to Fragile X patients or other patient groups will require additional development of the research by clinicians.

      Given the extensive history of research on this drug, we focused on looking for side effects that would reflect an adverse effect of diazepam on the function of the same oculomotor neural circuitry whose ability to support certain oculomotor learning tasks was improved after diazepam. In other words, we assessed whether the pharmacological manipulation was enhancing certain functions of a given circuit at the expense of others. As we note (line 164), “The acute effect of diazepam administration [measured 2 hours after administration] was to impair learning” in both WT and L7-Fmr1 KO mice. One could consider this a side effect. More importantly, we also tested extensively for oculomotor side-effects during the therapeutic period when learning impairments were eliminated in the L7-Fmr1 KOs, 18-24 hours post-administration, and have a full section of the Results describing our findings about this, titled “Specificity of pre-training effects on learning.” As described in the Results and Discussion (lines 184195, 312-318, Figure 3, figure 3-supplement1; figure 4B; figure 5-supplement 1), we found no such adverse side-effects, which is again encouraging with respect to the translational potential of our findings. 

      This drug is not specific to Purkinje cells or cerebellar circuits, so the action of the drug on cerebellar circuitry is not well understood for the study presented.

      The effects of diazepam are indeed not specific to Purkinje cells, but rather are known to be widespread. Diazepam is a positive allosteric modulator of GABAA receptors, which are found throughout the brain, including the cerebellum. When delivered systemically, as we did in our experiments, diazepam will suppress neural activity throughout the brain by facilitating inhibition, as documented by decades of previous research with this and related benzodiazepines, including dozens of studies of the effects of diazepam in the cerebellum. 

      To our knowledge, there is currently no drug that can specifically inhibit Purkinje cells, especially one that can be given systemically to cross the blood-brain barrier. Moreover, if such a drug did exist, we would not predict it to have the same effect as diazepam in reversing the learning deficits of the L7-Fmr1 KO mice, because the latter presumably depends on suppression of activity in the cerebellar granule cells and neurons of the inferior olive, whose axons form the parallel fibers and climbing fibers, and whose correlated activity controls LTD at the parallel fiber-Purkinje cell synapses.  

      We have revised the text to clarify the key point that despite its widespread action on the brain, the effects of diazepam on cerebellum-dependent learning were remarkably specific (lines 184-195, 210-228, 312318). During the period 18-24 hours after a single dose of diazepam, the learning deficits of L7-Fmr1 KO mice on two LTD-dependent oculomotor learning tasks were completely reversed, with no effects on the same tasks in WT mice, and no effects (“side-effects”) in L7-Fmr1 KO mice or WT mice on other, LTDindependent oculomotor learning tasks that depend on the same region of the cerebellum, and no effects on baseline performance of visually or vestibularly driven eye movements. 

      As described in the revised Discussion (lines 318-323), the non-specific mild suppression of neural activity throughout the brain by diazepam makes it a potentially generalizable approach for inducing BCM-like shifts in the threshold for associative plasticity to facilitate subsequent learning. More specifically, diazepam-mediated reduction of activity throughout the brain has the potential to lower any aberrantly high thresholds for associative plasticity at synapses throughout the brain, and thereby reverse any learning deficits associated with such aberrantly high plasticity thresholds. This approach might even be useful in cases where the neural circuitry supporting a given behavior is not well characterized and the specific synapses responsible for the learning deficit are unknown. On lines 323-327 we compare this generalizable approach with the challenges of designing task- and circuit-specific approaches to reset the threshold for plasticity, particularly in circuits that are less well characterized than the oculomotor circuit.

      It was not mentioned if L7-Fmr1 KO mice have behavior impairments that worsen with age or if Purkinje cells and the cerebellar microcircuit are intact throughout the lifespan. 

      At the adult ages used in our study (8-22 weeks), the oculomotor circuitry, including the Fmr1-deficient Purkinje cells, appears to be functionally intact because all of the oculomotor performance and learning tasks we tested were either normal, or could be restored to normal with brief behavioral and/or pharmacological pre-treatment.  

      Any degeneration of the Fmr1-deficient Purkinje cells or cerebellar microcircuit or additional behavioral impairments at older ages, if they should exist, would not alter our interpretation of the results from 8-22 week old adults regarding history- and activity-dependent changes in the capacity for LTD-dependent learning. Therefore, we leave the question of changes throughout the lifespan to investigators with an interest and expertise in development and/or aging. 

      Only a small handful of the scores of previous studies of the Fmr1 KO mouse model have investigated age-dependent effects; the reviewer may be interested in papers such as Tang et al., 2015 (doi: 10.1073/pnas.1502258112) or Martin et al., 2016 (doi: 10.1093/cercor/bhv031). 

      Connections between Purkinje cells and interneurons could also influence the behavior results found.

      This comment is repeated below in a more general form (Reviewer 1, second to last comment)—please see our response there and lines 270-309 of the revised manuscript for a discussion of how concerns about “off-target” effects are mitigated by the high degree of specificity of the learning deficits and effects of pre-training for the specific learning tasks in which LTD has been previously implicated, and the very similar findings in two different lines of mice with enhanced LTD.

      While males and females were both used for the current study, only 7 of each sex were analyzed, which could be underpowered. While it might be justified to combine sexes for this particular study, it would be worth understanding this model in more detail.

      We performed additional analyses to address the question of whether there might be sex differences that were not detected because of the sample size.

      (1) In a new figure, Fig. 1-figure supplement 1, we break out the results for male and female mice in separate plots, and show that all of the effects of both the KO of Fmr1 from the Purkinje cells and of pretreatment with diazepam that are observed in the full cohort are also statistically significant in just the subset of male mice, and just the subset of female mice (see Fig. 1-figure supplement 1 legend for statistics). In other words, qualitatively, there are no sex differences, and all of the conclusions of our manuscript are statistically valid in both male and female mice. This strengthens the justification for combining sexes for the specific scientific purposes of our study.  

      (2) We performed a power analysis to determine how many mice would be needed to determine whether the very, very small quantitative differences between male and female mice are significant. The analysis indicates that this would require upwards of 70 mice of each sex for WT mice (Cohen’s d, 0.6162; power

      0.95) and upwards of 2500 mice of each sex for L7-Fmr1 KO mice (Cohen’s d, 0.0989; power 0.95). Since the very small quantitative sex differences observed in our cohorts would not alter our scientific conclusions or the possibility for clinical application to patients of both sexes, even if the small quantitative differences turned out to be significant, the very large number of animals needed did not seem warranted for the current scientific purposes. Researchers focused on sex differences may find a motivation to pursue this issue further.   

      Training was only shown up to 30 minutes and learning did not seem to plateau in most cases. What would happen if training continued beyond the 30 minutes? Would L7-Fmr1 KO mice catch-up to WT littermates? Nguyen-Vu

      (1) For VOR learning, we used a 30 min training time because in our past (e.g., Boyden et al., 2003; Kimpo and Raymond, 2007; Nguyen-Vu et al., 2013; Nguyen-Vu et al., 2017) and current results, we find that VOR learning does plateau quite rapidly, with little or no additional adaptive change in the VOR observed between the tests of learning after 30 min vs 20 min of VOR-increase training, in WT or L7Fmr1 KO mice (Fig. 1A; WT, p=0.917; L7-Fmr1 KO, p=0.861; 20 vs. 30 min; Tukey). In the L7-Fmr1 KO mice, there is no significant high-frequency VOR-increase learning after 30 min training, and the mean VOR gain is even slightly lower on average (not significant) than before training (Fig. 1A, red). Therefore, we have no reason to expect that the L7-Fmr1 KO mice would catch up to WT after additional VOR-increase training.  

      (2) We have added new data on OKR adaptation, induced with 60 min of training (Fig. 5). The L7-Fmr1 KO mice exhibited impaired OKR adaptation, even with 60 min of training (p= 1.27x10-4, Tukey). In our experience, restraint for longer than 60 min produces a behavioral state that is not conducive to learning, as also reported by (Katoh and Yamagiwa, 2018), therefore longer training times were not attempted. 

      The pathway discussed as the main focus for VOR in this learning paradigm was connections between parallel fibers (PF) and Purkinje cells, but the possibility of other local or downstream circuitry being involved was not discussed. PF-Purkinje cell circuits were not directly analyzed, which makes this claim difficult to assess.

      In the revised manuscript (lines 299-309), we have expanded our discussion of the possibility that loss of expression of Fmr1 from Purkinje cells in the Purkinje cell-specific L7-Fmr1 KO mice might influence other synapses or intrinsic properties of the Purkinje cells (including synapses from interneurons, as raised in this reviewer’s comment above), in addition to enhancing associative LTD at the parallel fiberPurkinje cell synapses. 

      It is a very general limitation of all perturbation studies, even cell-type specific perturbation studies as in the current case, that it is never possible to completely rule out “off-target” effects of the manipulation. Because of this, causality cannot be definitively concluded from correlations (e.g., between the effects of a perturbation observed at the cellular and behavioral level), and therefore we make no such claim in our manuscript. Rather, we conclude that our results “provide evidence for,” “support,” “predict,” or “are consistent with” the hypothesis of a history- and activity-dependent change in the threshold for associative LTD at the parallel fiber-Purkinje cells.

      That said, perturbation is still one of the major tools in the experimental toolbox, and there are approaches for mitigating concern about off-target effects. We highlight three aspects of our experimental design that accomplish this (lines 184-228, 256-309). First, we show nearly identical learning impairments and effects of behavioral pretreatment in lines of mice with two completely different molecular manipulations that have the common effect of enhancing PF-Purkinje cell LTD, but are likely to have different off-target cellular effects on the Purkinje cells and their synapses. Second, we show that the learning impairments were highly specific to oculomotor learning tasks in which PF-Purkinje cell LTD was previously implicated, with no such effects on three other oculomotor learning tasks that depend on the same region of the cerebellum and oculomotor circuitry. In the original submission, we provided data for one LTDdependent oculomotor learning task, high-frequency VOR-increase learning; in the revised manuscript we provide new data for a second LTD-dependent oculomotor learning task, optokinetic reflex adaptation, with nearly identical results (Fig. 5). Third, we show that the effects of diazepam pre-treatment were highly specific to the same two LTD-dependent oculomotor learning tasks and also highly specific to the L7-Fmr1 KO mice with enhanced LTD and not WT mice. These three features of the experimental design are not common in studies of learning, especially in combination. On lines 256-309, we provide an expanded discussion of how together, these three features of the design strengthen the evidence that the learning impairments and effects of diazepam pre-treatment on learning are related to LTD at the PF-Pk synapses, while acknowledging the possibility of other effects on the circuit. 

      The authors mostly achieved their aim and the results support their conclusion and proposed hypothesis. This work will be impactful on the field as it uses a new Purkinje-cell specific mouse model to study a classic cerebellar task. The use of diazepam could be further analyzed in other genetic models of neurodevelopmental disorders to understand if effects on LTD can rescue other pathways and behavior outcomes.

      We agree that the present findings are potentially relevant for a very wide array of behavioral tasks, disease models, and brain areas beyond the specific ones in our study, and we make this point on lines 310-338 of the revised manuscript. 

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      This manuscript explores the seemingly paradoxical observation that enhanced synaptic plasticity impairs (rather than enhances) certain forms of learning and memory. The central hypothesis is that such impairments arise due to saturation of synaptic plasticity, such that the synaptic plasticity required for learning can no longer be induced. A prior study provided evidence for this hypothesis using transgenic mice that lack major histocompatibility class 1 molecules and show enhanced long-term depression (LTD) at synapses between granule cells and Purkinje cells of the cerebellum. The study found that a form of LTD-dependent motor learning-increasing the gain of the vestibulo-ocular reflex (VOR)-is impaired in these mice and can be rescued by manipulations designed to "unsaturate" LTD. The present study extends this line of investigation to another transgenic mouse line with enhanced LTD, namely, mice with the Fragile X gene knocked out. The main findings are that VOR gain increased learning is selectively impaired in these mice but can be rescued by specific manipulations of visuomotor experience known to reverse cerebellar LTD. Additionally, the authors show that a transient global enhancement of neuronal inhibition also selectively rescues gain increases learning. This latter finding has potential clinical relevance since the drug used to boost inhibition, diazepam, is FDA-approved and commonly used in the clinic. The evidence provided for the saturation is somewhat indirect because directly measuring synaptic strength in vivo is technically difficult. Nevertheless, the experimental results are solid. In particular, the specificity of the effects to forms of plasticity previously shown to require LTD is remarkable. The authors should consider including a brief discussion of some of the important untested assumptions of the saturation hypothesis, including the requirement that cerebellar LTD depends not only on pre- and postsynaptic activity (as is typically assumed) but also on the prior history of synaptic activation.

      We thank the reviewer for this exceptionally clear and concise assessment of the findings and strengths of the manuscript.

      We agree that one of the most “remarkable” aspects of our findings is the specificity of the effects for oculomotor learning tasks for which there is the strongest previous evidence for a role of PF-Purkinje cell LTD. In the original manuscript, we tested just one LTD-dependent oculomotor learning task, highfrequency VOR increase learning; in the revised manuscript, we strengthen the case for LTD-dependent task specificity by adding new data (Fig. 5) showing the same effects for OKR adaptation, an additional LTD-dependent oculomotor learning task.

      The reviewer’s suggestion to include discussion of “untested assumptions”, “including the requirement that cerebellar LTD depends not only on pre- and postsynaptic activity (as is typically assumed) but also on the prior history of synaptic activation” prompted us to more deeply consider the broader implications of our results, and extensively revise the Discussion accordingly. We clarify that we consider historydependent changes in the threshold for LTD to be a prediction of the behavioral and pharmacological findings (lines 339-347, 356) rather than an assumption. In addition, we highlight the broader implications of the results by putting them in the context of work in other brain areas on historydependent changes in the threshold for plasticity, i.e., metaplasticity, going back to the seminal Bienenstock-Cooper-Munro (BCM; year) theory (lines 348-378).  

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for The Authors):

      The text and figures are very clear to read, but there are a couple of questions that remain:

      The concentrations chosen for diazepam are not well described and it is unclear why the concentrations jump from 2.5 mg/kg to 0.5 mg/kg. Please add an explanation for these concentrations and if any additional behavior outcomes were observed.

      Our choice of diazepam concentrations was guided by the concentrations reported in the literature to be effective in mice, which suggest that a higher dose (2 mg/kg) can have additional effects not observed with a lower effective dose (0.5 mg/kg) (Pádua-Reis et al, 2021). Since we did not know how much enhancement of inhibition/suppression of activity might be necessary to substantially reduce the induction of PF-Purkinje cell LTD, we did pilot experiments to test concentrations at the low and high ends of the doses typically used in mice. These pilot experiments revealed that a lower dose of 0.4 or 0.5 mg/kg was comparable to the higher dose of 2.5 mg/kg in suppressing VOR-increase learning 2 hours after administration (Fig. 3 – figure supplement 2). Anecdotally, we observed higher levels of locomotor activity and other abnormal cage behavior during the period immediately after administration of the higher compared to the lower dose. To limit these side effects and any possibility of dependence, we used only the lower dose in all subsequent experiments. We clarify this rationale for using a lower dose in the legend of Fig. 3 – figure supplement 2.   

      Figure 4 describes low-frequency VOR, but the paragraph discussing these results (line 191) mentions high-frequency VOR-increase learning. It is unclear where the results are for the high-frequency data. Please include or rephrase for clearer understanding.

      In the revised manuscript, we clarify that the 1 Hz vestibular and visual stimuli used in Figs. 1-3 is the

      “high” frequency, which yields different results than the “low” frequency of 0.5 Hz (Fig. 4), as also observed in Boyden et al 2006, and Nguyen-Vu et al, 2017. 

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The authors should consider including a brief discussion of some of the important untested assumptions of the saturation hypothesis, including the requirement that cerebellar LTD depends not only on pre- and postsynaptic activity (as is typically assumed) but also on the prior history of synaptic activation.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment, which, along with your public comments, inspired us to thoroughly reconsider and revise our Discussion. We think this has greatly improved the manuscript, and will substantially increase its appeal to a broad segment of the neuroscience research community, including computational neuroscientists as well as those interested in synaptic physiology, learning and memory, or plasticity-related brain disorders including autism. 

      Note that we consider the idea that ”LTD depends not only on pre- and post- synaptic activity but also on the prior history of synaptic activation” to be the central prediction of the threshold metaplasticity hypothesis rather than an assumption, and in the revised manuscript we explicitly refer to this as a prediction (line 339, 356).  We also added a discussion of multiple known cellular phenomena in the Purkinje cells and their synapses that can regulate LTD and thus represent candidate mechanisms for LTD threshold metaplasticity (lines 339-347). Again, sincere thanks for prompting us to write a vastly improved Discussion section.

      Editor's note:

      Should you choose to revise your manuscript, please include full statistical reporting including exact pvalues wherever possible alongside the summary statistics (test statistic and df) and 95% confidence intervals. These should be reported in the main text for all key questions and not only when the p-value is less than 0.05.

      We have added exact p-values throughout the manuscript.  

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    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment

      This important study tests the hypothesis that a high autism quotient in neurotypical adults is strongly associated with suboptimal motor planning and visual updating after eye movements, which in turn, is related to a disrupted efference copy mechanism. The implication is that such abnormal behavior would be exaggerated in those with ASD and may contribute to sensory overload - a key symptom in this condition. The evidence presented is convincing, with significant effects in both visual and motor domains, adequate sample sizes, and consideration of alternatives. However, the study would be strengthened with minor but necessary corrections to methods and statistics, as well as a moderation of claims regarding direct application to ASD in the absence of testing such patients.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This study examines a hypothesized link between autism symptomatology and efference copy mechanisms. This is an important question for several reasons. Efference copy is both a critical brain mechanism that is key to rapid sensorimotor behaviors, and one that has important implications for autism given recent empirical and theoretical work implicating atypical prediction mechanisms and atypical reliance on priors in ASD.

      The authors test this relationship in two different experiments, both of which show larger errors/biases in spatial updating for those with heightened autistic traits (as measured by AQ in neurotypical (NT) individuals).

      Strengths:

      The empirical results are convincing - effects are strong, sample sizes are sufficient, and the authors also rule out alternative explanations (ruling out differences in motor behavior or perceptual processing per se).

      Weaknesses:

      My main concern is that the paper should be more transparent about both (1) that this study does not include individuals with autism, and (2) acknowledging the limitations of the AQ.

      On the first point, and I don't think this is intentional, there are several instances where the line between heightened autistic traits in the NT population and ASD is blurred or absent. For example, in the second sentence of the abstract, the authors state "Here, we examine the idea that sensory overload in ASD may be linked to issues with efference copy mechanisms". I would say this is not correct because the authors did not test individuals with ASD. I don't see a problem with using ASD to motivate and discuss this work, but it should be clear in key places that this was done using AQ in NT individuals.

      For the second issue, the AQ measure itself has some problems. For example, reference 38 in the paper (a key paper on AQ) also shows that those with high AQ skew more male than modern estimates of ASD, suggesting that the AQ may not fully capture the full spectrum of ASD symptomatology. Of course, this does not mean that the AQ is not a useful measure (the present data clearly show that it captures something important about spatial updating during eye movements), but it should not be confused with ASD, and its limitations need to be acknowledged. My recommendation would be to do this in the title as well - e.g. note impaired visuomotor updating in individuals with "heightened autistic traits".

      We thank the reviewer for the kind words. We now specify more carefully that our sample of participants consists of neurotypical adults scored for autistic traits and none of them was diagnosed with autism before participating in our experiment. Regarding the Autistic Quotient Questionnaire (AQ) on page 5 of the Introduction we now write:

      “The autistic traits of the whole population form a continuum, with ASD diagnosis usually situated on the high end 31-33. Moreover, autistic traits share a genetic and biological etiology with ASD 34. Thus, quantifying autistic-trait-related differences in healthy people can provide unique perspectives as well as a useful surrogate for understanding the symptoms of ASD 31,35.”

      In the Discussion (page 9) we now write:

      ”It is essential to note that our participant pool lacked pre-existing diagnoses before engaging in the experiments and we must address limitations associated with the AQ questionnaire. The AQ questionnaire demonstrates adequate test-retest reliability 36, normal distribution of sum scores in the general population 50, and cross-cultural equivalence has been established in Dutch and Japanese samples 51-53. The AQ effectively categorizes individuals into low, average, and high degrees of autistic traits, demonstrating sensitivity for both group and individual assessments 54.

      However, evolving research underscores many aspects that are not fully captured by the self-administered questionnaire: for example, gender differences in ASD trait manifestation 55. Autistic females may exhibit more socially typical interests, often overlooked by professionals 56. Camouflaging behaviors, employed by autistic women to blend in, pose challenges for accurate diagnosis 57. Late diagnoses are attributed to a lack of awareness, gendered traits, and outdated assessment tools 58. Moving forward, complementing AQ evaluations in the general population with other questionnaires, such as those assessing camouflaging abilities 59, or motor skills in everyday situation (MOSES-test 60) becomes crucial for a comprehensive understanding of autistic traits.”

      Suggestions for improvement:

      - Figure 5 is really interesting. I think it should be highlighted a bit more, perhaps even with a model that uses the results of both tasks to predict AQ scores.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. However, the sample size is relatively small for building a robust and generalizable model to predict AQ scores. Statistical models built on small datasets can be prone to overfitting, meaning that they might not accurately predict the AQ for new individuals.

      - Some discussion of the memory demands of the tasks will be helpful. The authors argue that memory is not a factor, but some support for this is needed. 

      The reviewer raises an important point regarding the potential for memory demands to influence our results. We have now also investigated the accuracy of the second saccade separately for the x and y dimension. As also shown in figure 3 panel A, a motor bias was observed only in one dimension (x), weaking the argument of memory which would imply a bias in both directions (participants remembering the position of the target relative to both screen borders for example). We performed a t-test between our subsample of participants and indeed we found a difference in saccade accuracy for the x dimension (p = 0.03) but not in the y dimension (p = 0.88).

      We now add these analyses in Discussion on page 8.

      - With 3 sessions for each experiment, the authors also have data to look at learning. Did people with high AQ get better over time, or did the observed errors/biases persist throughout the experiment? 

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. On page 7 (Results) we now write:

      ” Understanding how these biases might change over time could provide further insights into this mechanism. Specifically, we investigated whether participants exhibited any learning effects throughout the experiments. For data of Experiment 1 – motor updating – we divided our data into 10 separate bins of 30 trials each. We conducted a repeated measure ANOVA with the within-subject factor “number of sessions” (two main sessions of 5 bins each, ~150 trials) and the between-subject factor “group” (lower vs upper quartile of the AQ distribution). We found no main effect of “number of sessions” (F(1,7) = 0.25, p = 0.66), a main effect of “group” (F(1,7) = 2.52, p = 0.015), and no interaction between the two subsample of participants and the sessions tested (F(1,7) = 0.51, p = 0.49). Data of Experiment 2 – visual updating– were separated into 3 sessions. For each session we extracted the PSE and we conducted a repeated measure ANOVA with within subject factor “sessions” and between subject factor “groups” (lower vs upper quartile of the AQ distribution). Also here we found no main effect of sessions (F(1,13) = 0.86, p = 0.39), a main effect of group (F(1,14) = 11.85, p = 0.004), and no interaction between the two subsample of participants and the sessions tested (F(1,13) = 0.20, p = 0.73). In conclusion, the current study found no evidence of learning effects across the experimental sessions. However, a significant main effect of group was observed in both Experiment 1 (motor updating) and Experiment 2 (visual updating). Participants in the group with higher autistic traits performed systematically differently on the task, regardless of the number of sessions completed compared to those in the group with lower autistic traits.”

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The idea that various clinical conditions may be associated, at least partially, with a disrupted corollary discharge mechanism has been present for a long time.

      In this paper, the authors draw a link between sensory overload, a characteristic of autism spectrum disorder, and a disturbance in the corollary discharge mechanism. The authors substantiate their hypothesis with strong evidence from both the motor and perceptual domains. As a result, they broaden the clinical relevance of the corollary discharge mechanism to encompass autism spectrum disorder.

      The authors write:

      "Imagine a scenario in which you're watching a video of a fast-moving car on a bumpy road. As the car hits a pothole, your eyes naturally make quick, involuntary saccades to keep the car in your visual field. Without a functional efference copy system, your brain would have difficulty accurately determining the current position of your eye in space, which in turn affects its ability to anticipate where the car should appear after each eye movement."

      I appreciate the use of examples to clarify the concept of efference copy. However, I believe this example is more related to a gain-field mechanism, informing the system about the position of the eye with respect to the head, rather than an example of efference copy per se.

      Without an efference copy mechanism, the brain would have trouble accurately determining where the eyes will be in space after an eye movement, and it will have trouble predicting the sensory consequences of the eye movement. However it can be argued that the gain-field mechanism would be sufficient to inform the brain about the current position of the eyes with respect to the head. 

      We now used a different example. And on page 3 of Introduction, we now write:

      “During a tennis game, rapid oculomotor saccades are employed to track the high-velocity ball across the visual display. In the absence of a functional efference copy mechanism, the brain would encounter difficulty in anticipating the precise retinal location of the ball following each saccade. This could result in a transient period of visual disruption as the visual system adjusts to the new eye position. The efference copy, by predicting the forthcoming sensory consequences of the saccade, would bridge this gap and facilitate the maintenance of a continuous and accurate representation of the ball's trajectory.”

      The authors write:

      "In the double-step paradigm, two consecutive saccades are made to briefly displayed targets 21, 22. The first saccade occurs without visual references, relying on internal updating to determine the eye's position."

      Maybe I have missed something, but in the double-step paradigm the first saccade can occur without the help of visual references if no visual feedback is present, that is, when saccades are performed in total darkness. Was this the case for this experiment? I could not find details about room conditions in the methods. Please provide further details.

      In case saccades were not performed in total darkness, then the first saccade can be based on the remembered location of the first target presented, which can be derived from the retinotopic trace of the first stimuli, as well as the contribution from the surroundings, that is: the remembered relative location of the first target with respect to the screen border along the horizontal meridian (i.e. allocentric cues).

      A similar logic could be applied to the second saccade. If the second saccade were based only on the retinotopic trace, without updating, then it would go up and 45 deg to the right, based on the example shown in Figure 1. With appropriate updating, the second saccade would go straight up. However, if saccades were not performed in total darkness, then the location of the second target could also be derived from its relationship with the surroundings (for example, the remembered distance from screen borders, i.e. allocentric cues).

      If saccades were not performed in total darkness, the results shown in Figures 2 and 3 could then be related to i) differences in motor updating between AQ score groups; ii) differences in the use of allocentric cues between AQ score groups; iii) a combination of i) and ii). I believe this is a point worth mentioning in the discussion." 

      Thank you for raising the important issue of visual references in the double-step saccade task. Participants performed saccades in a dimly lit room where visual references, i.e. the screen borders, were barely visible. At the time we collected the data a laboratory that allowed performing experiments in complete darkness was not at our disposal. We acknowledge the possibility that participants could have memorized the target locations relative to the screen borders. The bias of high AQ participants could then be attributed to differences in either encoding, memorization or decoding of the target location relative to the screen borders. However, the potentially abnormal use of visual references must reflect an altered remapping process since we did not find differences in saccade landing in the vertical dimension. A t-test between our group of participants revealed a difference in saccade accuracy for the x dimension (p = 0.03) but not in the y dimension (p = 0.88). We thus agree that in addition to an altered efference copy signal in high AQ participants, altered use of visual references might also affect their saccadic remapping.

      In Discussion we now write: “Our findings suggest that a general memory deficit is unlikely to fully explain the observed bias in high-AQ participants' second saccades. As highlighted in Figure 3A, the bias was specific to the horizontal dimension, weakening the argument for a global memory issue affecting both vertical and horizontal encoding of target location. However, it's important to acknowledge that even under non-darkness conditions, participants might rely on a combination of internal updating based on the initial target location and visual cues from the environment, such as screen borders. This potential use of visual references could contribute to the observed bias in the high-AQ group. If high-AQ participants differed in their reliance on visual cues compared to the low-AQ group, it could explain the specific pattern of altered remapping observed in the horizontal dimension. This possibility aligns with our argument for an abnormal remapping process underlying the results. While altered efference copy signals remain a strong candidate, the potential influence of visual cues on remapping in this population warrants further investigation. Future studies could incorporate a darkness condition to isolate the effects of internal updating on the first saccade, and systematically manipulate the availability of visual cues throughout the task. This would allow for a more nuanced understanding of how internal updating and visual reference use interact in the double-step paradigm, particularly for individuals with varying AQ scores “.

      The authors write:

      According to theories of saccadic suppression, an efference copy is necessary to predict the occurrence of a saccade."

      I would also refer to alternative accounts, where saccadic suppression appears to arise as early as the retina, due to the interaction between the visual shift introduced by the eye movement, and the retinal signal associated with the probe used to measure saccadic suppression. This could potentially account for the scaling of saccadic suppression magnitude with saccade amplitude.

      Idrees, S., Baumann, M.P., Franke, F., Münch, T.A. and Hafed, Z.M., 2020. Perceptual saccadic suppression starts in the retina. Nature communications, 11(1), p.1977. 

      We thank the reviewer. Now on page 4 of Introduction we write:

      “Some theories consider saccadic omission and saccadic suppression as resulting from an active mechanism. In this view an efference copy would signal the occurrence of a saccade, yielding a transient decrease in visual sensitivity20-22. Others however have pointed out the possibility that a purely passive mechanism suffices to induce saccadic omission23. A recent study has found evidence for saccadic suppression already in the retina. Idrees et al.24 demonstrated that retinal ganglion cells in isolated retinae of mice and pigs respond to saccade-like displacements, leading to the suppression of responses to additional flashed visual stimuli through visually triggered retinal-circuit mechanisms. Importantly, their findings suggest that perisaccadic modulations of contrast sensitivity may have a purely visual origin, challenging the need for an efference copy in the early stages of saccadic suppression. However, the suppression they measured lasted much longer than time-courses observed in behavioral data. An efference copy signal could thus be necessary to release perception from suppression.”

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review): 

      Summary:

      This work examined efference copy related to eye movements in healthy adults who have high autistic traits. Efference copies allow the brain to make predictions about sensory outcomes of self-generated actions, and thus serve important roles in motor planning and maintaining visual stability. Consequently, disrupted efference copies have been posited as a potential mechanism underlying motor and sensory symptoms in psychopathology such as Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD), but so far very few studies have directly investigated this theory. Therefore, this study makes an important contribution as an attempt to fill in this knowledge gap. The authors conducted two eye-tracking experiments examining the accuracy of motor planning and visual perception following a saccade and found that participants with high autistic traits exhibited worse task performance (i.e., less accurate second saccade and biased perception of object displacement), consistent with their hypothesis of less impact of efference copies on motor and visual updating. Moreover, the motor and visual biases are positively correlated, indicative of a common underlying mechanism. These findings are promising and can have important implications for clinical intervention if they can be replicated in a clinical sample.

      Strengths:

      The authors utilized well-established and rigorously designed experiments and sound analytic methods. This enables easy translations between similar work in non-human primates and humans and readily points to potential candidates for underlying neural circuits that could be further examined in follow-up studies (e.g., superior colliculus, frontal eye fields, mediodorsal thalamus). The finding of no association between initial saccade accuracy and level of autistic trait in both experiments also serves as an important control analysis and increases one's confidence in the conclusion that the observed differences in task performance were indeed due to disrupted efference copies, not confounding factors such as basic visual/motor deficits or issues with working memory. The strong correlation between the observed motor and visual biases further strengthens the claim that the findings from both experiments may be explained by the same underlying mechanism - disrupted efference copies. Lastly, the authors also presented a thoughtful and detailed mechanistic theory of how efference copy impairment may lead to ASD symptomatology, which can serve as a nice framework for more research into the role of efference copies in ASD.

      Weaknesses:

      Although the paper has a lot of strengths, the main weakness of the paper is that a direct link with ASD symptoms (i.e., sensory overload and motor inflexibility as the authors suggested) cannot be established. First of all, the participants are all healthy adults who do not meet the clinical criteria for an ASD diagnosis. Although they could be considered a part of the broader autism phenotype, the results cannot be easily generalized to the clinical population without further research. Secondly, the measure used to quantify the level of autistic traits, Autistic Quotient (AQ), does not actually capture any sensory or motor symptoms of ASD. Therefore, it is unknown whether those who scored high on AQ in this study experienced high, or even any, sensory or motor difficulties. In other words, more evidence is needed to demonstrate a direct link between disrupted efference copies and sensory/motor symptoms in ASD.

      This is a valid point, and we thank the reviewer for raising it up. Moving forward, complementing AQ evaluations in the general population with other questionnaires, such as those assessing camouflaging abilities (Hull, L., Mandy, W., Lai, MC., et al., 2019), or motor skills in everyday situation (MOSES-test, Hillus J, Moseley R, Roepke S, Mohr B. 2019 ) becomes crucial for a comprehensive understanding of autistic traits.”

      We now address this point in Discussion page 9.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Minor comments

      - The pothole example in the introduction was really hard to follow. I wonder if there is a better example. 

      We now used a different example. And on page 3 of Introduction, we now write:

      “During a tennis game, rapid oculomotor saccades are employed to track the high-velocity ball across the visual display. In the absence of a functional efference copy mechanism, the brain would encounter difficulty in anticipating the precise retinal location of the ball following each saccade. This could result in a transient period of visual disruption as the visual system adjusts to the new eye position. The efference copy, by predicting the forthcoming sensory consequences of the saccade, would bridge this gap and facilitate the maintenance of a continuous and accurate representation of the ball's trajectory.”

      - This is really minor; I would say that saccades are not the most frequent movement that humans perform. Some of the balance-related adjustments and even heartbeats are faster. Maybe just add "voluntary". 

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion, now added.

      - "Severe consequences" on page 4 is a bit strong. If that were true, there would be pretty severe impairments in eye movement behavior in ASD, which I don't think is the case.

      We agree with the reviewer. We now eliminated the term “severe”.

      - The results section would read better if each experiment had a short paragraph reiterating its overall goal and the specific approach each experiment took to achieve that goal. 

      Now on page 5, for the first experiment, we write:

      ”We investigated the influence of autistic traits on visual updating during saccadic eye movements using a classic double-step saccade task. This task relies on participants making two consecutive saccades to briefly presented targets. The accuracy of the second saccade serves as an indirect measure of how effectively the participant's brain integrated the execution of the first saccade into their internal representation of visual space. Participants were divided into quartiles based on the severity of their autistic traits, as assessed by the Autistic quotient questionnaire (cite). We hypothesized that individuals with higher autistic traits would exhibit greater difficulty in visual updating compared to those with lower autistic traits. This would be reflected in reduced accuracy of their second saccades in the double-step task. Figure 2C illustrates examples from participants at the extremes of the autistic trait distribution (Autistic quotient = 3, in orange and Autistic quotient = 31, in magenta). As shown, both participants were instructed to make saccades to the locations indicated by two brief target appearances (T1 and T2), as quickly and accurately as possible, following the order of presentation. However, successful execution of the second saccade requires accurate internal compensation for the first saccade, without any visual references or feedback available during the saccade itself.”

      On page 6, for experiment 2, we write:

      ”With a trans-saccadic localization task, we explored how autistic traits affect the integration of eye movements into visual perception. Participants were presented with stimuli before and after a single saccade, creating an illusion of apparent motion. We measured the perceived direction of this displacement, which is influenced by how well the participant's brain accounts for the saccadic eye movement. We predicted that individuals with higher autistic traits would show a stronger bias in the perceived displacement direction, suggesting a less accurate integration of the eye movement into their visual perception.”

      - On page 6, the text about "vertical displacement" is confusing. The spatial displacements in this experiment were horizontal? 

      Yes, they were. The spatial displacement is horizontal, but the perceived trajectory (due to the saccade) is vertical. We now changed “vertical displacement” to “vertical trajectory”.

      - Page 6, grammatical problems in "while we report a slightly slant of the dots trajectory". 

      Thank you. Now fixed.

      - It would be helpful to discuss the apparent motion part of Experiment 2 in the main text. This important part is not made clear. 

      We now in Introduction, page 4, write:

      “In this paradigm, one stimulus is shown before and another after saccade execution. Together these two stimuli produce the perception of “apparent motion”. If stimuli are placed such that the apparent motion path is orthogonal to the saccade path, then the orientation of the apparent motion path indicates how the saccade vector is integrated into vision. The apparent motion trajectory can only appear vertical if the movement of the eyes is perfectly accounted for, that is the retinotopic displacement is largely compensated, ensuring spatial stability. However, small biases of motion direction – implying under- (or over-) compensation of the eye movement – can indicate relative failures in this stabilization process. In a seminal study, Szinte and Cavanagh 27 found a slight over-compensation of the saccade vector leading to apparent motion slightly tilted against the direction of the saccade. More importantly, when efference copies are not available, i.e. localization occurring at the time of a second saccade in a double step task, a strong saccade under-compensation occurs 28.

      This phenomenon cannot be explained by perisaccadic mislocalization of flashed visual stimuli 29,30, but the two phenomena may be related in that they may both depend upon efference copy information.”

      - Figure 1 could be improved. For example, the text talks about the motor plan, but this is not clearly shown in the figure.

      We now added the motor plan into the model. Thank you.

      - Figure 2A, the scale is off (the pictures make it look like the horizontal movement was longer than the vertical). 

      Now fixed.

      - Figure 4, it would be helpful if the task was also described in the figure. 

      We thank the reviewer for the comment. We now tried to modify the figure by also adding the perceptual judgment task.

      - Figure 5A, the y-axis shows p(correct), but that is not what the y-axis shows (the legend makes the same mistake). 

      We apologize, it’s the proportion of time participants reported the second dot to be more to the right compared to the first one. We now changed the figure and the text accordingly.

      - A recent study on motion and eye movement prediction in ASD is very relevant to the work presented here.: Park et al. (2021). Atypical visual motion-prediction abilities in autism spectrum disorder. Clinical Psychological Science, 9(5), 944-960.

      Indeed. We now refer to the cited study in Discussion, on page 9.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Statistics and plotting.

      I believe some of the reported statistics are not clear. For example, the authors write:

      "Saccade landing positions of participants in the lower quartile (mean degree {plus minus} SEM: 10.17{plus minus} 0.50) did not deviate significantly from those in the upper quartile (mean degree {plus minus} SEM: 9.65 {plus minus} 0.77). This result was also confirmed by a paired sample t-test (t(7) = 0.66; p = 0.66, BF10 = 0.40)"

      Maybe I am missing something, but why use a paired-sample t-test when the upper and lower quartiles constitute different groups of participants? Shouldn't a two-sample t-test be used in this case?

      We apologize for the confusion. It is indeed a two-sample t-test.

      Along the same lines, I do not understand the link between the number of degrees of freedom reported in the t-test (7) and the number of participants reported in the study (41).

      This is also evident when looking at the scatterplot in Figure 3C. How many participants formed the averages and standard errors reported in Figures 3B and 3D? Please clarify.

      I have the same comment(s) also for the visual updating task (and related figures), where 13 degrees of freedom are reported in the t-tests. Please clarify. 

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. The number of participants reported in the scatter plots were indeed 42.  However, we opted to compare the averages only in the lower and upper quartile of the AQ distribution to avoid dealing with a median split (which would imply a skewed distribution). Of our sample of participants in Exp1, 8 fell into the lower quartile of the AQ distribution and 8 in the upper quartile (14 deg of freedom); from Exp 2, 8 participants fell in the lower and 7 in the upper (13 deg of freedom).

      We now fixed the values accordingly.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) The language can be a bit misleading (especially the title and abstract) as it wasn't always clear that the participants don't actually have clinical ASD. I'd suggest avoiding using words like "symptom" as that would indicate clinical severity, and using words like "traits/characteristics" instead for more precise language. 

      We apologize for the misleading terminology used. Now fixed.

      (2) In the Intro: "...perfect compensation results in a vertical trajectory, while small biases indicate stabilization issues23-25." This is a bit confusing without knowing the details of the paradigm. Consider clarifying or at least referring to Figure 4. 

      Thank you.

      (3) In the Results: "This result was also confirmed by a paired sample t-test (t(7) = 0.66;..." This is confusing as a two-sample t-test is the appropriate test here. Also, the degree of freedom seems very low - could the authors clarify how many participants are in each subgroup (i.e., low vs. high AQ quartile), for both experiments? 

      Of our sample of participants in Exp1 8 fell into the lower quartile of the AQ distribution and 8 in the upper quartile (14 deg of freedom); from Exp 2, 8 participants fell in the lower and 7 in the upper (13 deg of freedom).

      (4) In the Methods: Experiment 2: "The first dot could appear randomly above or below gaze level at a fixed horizontal location, halfway between the two fixations (x = 0, y = -5{degree sign} or +5{degree sign} depending on the trial). The second dot was then shown orthogonal to the first one at a variable horizontal location (x = 5{degree sign} {plus minus} 2.5{degree sign})." This would mean that the position of the 2nd dot relative to the 1st one would be 2.5{degree sign}- 7.5{degree sign}, but the task description in Results and Figure 5A would suggest the horizontal location of the second dot is x = 0{degree sign} {plus minus} 2.5{degree sign}. Which one is correct? 

      The second option is the correct one. We now fixed the typo in the Methods part.

      (5) There is another study that examined oculomotor efference copies in children with ASD using a similar trans-saccadic perception task (Yao et al., 2021, Journal of Vision). In that study, they found a correlation between task performance and an ASD motor symptom (repetitive behavior). This seems quite relevant to the authors' hypothesis and discussion. 

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. We now added the mentioned paper in the discussion.

      (6) Please proofread the entire paper carefully as there were multiple grammatical and spelling errors.

      Thank you.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      In this study, Hoops et al. showed that Netrin-1 and UNC5c can guide dopaminergic innervation from nucleus accumbens to cortex during adolescence in rodent models. 

      We showed this with respect to Netrin-1 only. With respect to UNC5c, we showed that the timing of its expression suggests that it may be involved, but did not conduct the UNC5cmanipulation experiments necessary to prove it. We state this clearly in the manuscript.

      They found that these dopamine axons project to the prefrontal cortex in a Netrin-1 dependent manner and knocking down Netrin-1 disrupted motor and learning behaviors in mice. 

      We would like to clarify that we did not show that learning or motor behaviors are affected. We showed that inhibitory control, measured in the Go/No-Go task, is altered in adulthood.

      Furthermore, the authors used hamsters, a seasonal model that is affected by the length of daylight, to demonstrate that the guidance of dopamine axons is mediated by the environmental factor such as daytime length and in sex dependent manner. 

      We agree with this characterization of our hamster experiments, but want to emphasize that it is the timing of the adolescent dopamine axon input to the prefrontal cortex what is impacted by daytime length in a sex dependent manner.

      Regarding the cell type specificity of Netrin-1 expression, the authors began by stating "this question is not the focus of the study and we consider it irrelevant to the main issue we are addressing, which is where in the forebrain regions we examined Netrin-1+ cells are present." This statement contradicts the exact issue regarding the specificity issue I raised.

      We are not sure why the identities of the cell types expressing Netrin-1 are at issue. As a secreted protein, Netrin-1 can be attached to the extracellular cell surface or in the extracellular matrix, where it interacts with its receptors, which are embedded in the cell surfaces of growing axons (Finci et al., 2015; Rajasekharan & Kennedy, 2009). Netrin-1 is expressed by a wide variety of cell types, for example it is expressed in medium spiny neurons in the striatum of rodents as well as in cholinergic neurons (Shatzmiller et al., 2008). However, we cannot see why showing exactly what type(s) of cells have Netrin-1 on their surfaces, or have secreted them into the matrix, would be at issue for our study.

      They then went on to show the RNAscope data for Netrin-1 in Figure 2, which showed Netrin-1 mRNA was actually expressed quite ubiquitously in anterior cingulate cortex, dorsopeduncular cortex, infralimbic cortex, prelimbic cortex, etc. 

      Figure 2 - this is referring to Author response image 2 of our first response to reviewers.

      We agree that Netrin-1 mRNA is present throughout the forebrain. In particular, its presence in the regions mentioned by Reviewer #1 is a key component of our theory for how dopamine axons grow to the prefrontal cortex in adolescence.

      In addition, contrary to the authors' statement that Netrin-1 is a "secreted protein", the confocal images in Figure 1 in the rebuttal letter actually show Netrin-1 present in "granule-like" organelles inside the cytoplasm of neurons. 

      The rebuttal letter’s Figure 1 is not sufficient to determine the subcellular location of the Netrin-1, however we agree that it is likely that Netrin-1 is present in the cytoplasm of neurons. Indeed, its presence in vesicles in the cytoplasm is to be expected as this is a common mechanism for cells to secrete proteins into the extracellular space (Glasgow et al., 2018). We are not sure whether Reviewer #1’s “granule-like” organelles are in fact secretory vesicles or not, and we do not think our immunohistochemical images are an appropriate method by which to determine this kind of question. We find, however, that a detailed characterization of the subcellular distribution of Netrin-1 is beyond the scope of our study. 

      That Netrin-1 is a secreted protein is well-established in the literature (for example, see Glasgow et al., 2018). The confocal images we provide suggest, but do not prove, that it is likely Netrin-1 is present both extracellularly and intracellularly, which is entirely consistent with its synthesis, secretion, and function. It is also consistent with our methodology and findings. 

      Finally, the authors presented Figure 7 to indicate the location where virus expressing Netrin-1 shRNA might be located. Again, the brain region targeted was quite focal and most likely did not cover all the Netrin-1+ brain regions in Figure 2. 

      Figure 2 - this is referring to Author response image 2 of our first response to reviewers.

      Figure 7 - this is referring to Author response image 4 of our first response to reviewers.

      We agree with Reviewer #1’s characterization of our experiment. We intended to interrupt the Netrin-1 pathway to the prefrontal cortex, like removing a bridge along a road. The Netrin-1 signal remained intact along the dopamine axon’s route before and after the location of the viral injection, however it was lost at the site of the virus injection. This is like a road remaining intact on either side of a destroyed bridge, but becoming impassable at the location where the bridge was destroyed. We are glad that Reviewer 1 agrees our experimental design achieved the desired outcome (a focal reduction in Netrin-1 expression).

      Collectively, these results raised more questions regarding the specificity of Netrin-1 expression in brain regions that are behaviorally relevant to this study.

      We do not agree with this assessment. Our manipulation of Netrin-1 expression was highly localized and specific, as Reviewer #1 seems to acknowledge. We are not clear on what questions this might raise that would call into question our findings as described in our manuscript. We have now added the following paragraph to our manuscript:  

      “It remains unknown exactly what types of cells are expressing Netrin-1 along the dopamine axon route, and how this expression is regulated to produce the Netrin-1 gradients that guide the dopamine axons. It also remains unclear where the misrouted axons end up in adulthood. Future experiments aimed at addressing these questions will provide further valuable insight into the nature of the “Netrin-1 pathway”. Nonetheless, our results allow us to conclude that Netrin-1 expressing cells “pave the way” for dopamine axons growing to the medial prefrontal cortex.”

      With respect to the effectiveness of Netrin-1 knockdown in the animals in this study, the authors cited data in HEK293 cells (Cuesta et al., 2020. Figure 2a), which did not include any statistics, and previously published in vivo data in a separate, independent study (Cuesta et al., 2020. Figure 2c). They do not provide any data regarding the effectiveness of Netrin-1 knockdown in THIS study.

      Indeed, we understand the concerns of Reviewer 1 here. This issue was discussed at the time all the experiments (both in the current manuscript and in Cuesta et al., (2020)) were conducted, and we decided that it was sufficient to show the virus was capable of knocking down Netrin-1 in vitro and in vivo in the forebrain. These characterization experiments were published in the first manuscript to present results using the virus, which was Cuesta et al., 2020. However, all experiments from both manuscripts were conducted contemporaneously.

      We do not see how repeating the same characterization experiments again is useful. 

      Similar concerns regarding UNC5C knockdown (points #6, #7, and #8) were not adequately addressed.

      There is no UNC5c knockdown in this manuscript. Furthermore, points #6, #7 and #8 do not deal with UNC5c knockdown. Point #6 is regarding the Netrin-1 virus efficacy, which we discuss above. Points #7 and #8 are requesting numerous additional experiments that we feel are worthy of their own manuscripts, and we do not feel that they call into question the findings we present here. Rather, answering points #7 and #8 would further refine our understanding of how dopamine axons grow to the prefrontal cortex beyond our current manuscript.

      In brief, while this study provides a potential role of Netrin-1-UNC5C in target innervation of dopaminergic neurons and its behavioral output in risk-taking, the data lack sufficient evidence to firmly establish the cause-effect relationship.

      We do not claim a cause-effect relationship here or anywhere in the manuscript. Concrete establishment of a cause-effect relationship will require several more manuscripts worth of experiments.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      In this manuscript, Hoops et al., using two different model systems, identified key developmental changes in Netrin-1 and UNC5C signaling that correspond to behavioral changes and are sensitive to environmental factors that affect the timing of development. They found that Netrin-1 expression is highest in regions of the striatum and cortex where TH+ axons are travelling, and that knocking down Netrin-1 reduces TH+ varicosities in mPFC and reduces impulsive behaviors in a Go-No-Go test. 

      We want to point out that we examined the Netrin-1 expression in the septum rather than the striatum but otherwise feel the above description is accurate.

      Further, they show that the onset of Unc5 expression is sexually dimorphic in mice, and that in Siberian hamsters, environmental effects on development are also sexually dimorophic. This study addresses an important question using approaches that link molecular, circuit and behavioral changes. Understanding developmental trajectories of adolescence, and how they can be impacted by environmental factors, is an understudied area of neuroscience that is highly relevant to understanding the onset of mental health disorders. I appreciated the inclusion of replication cohorts within the study.

      We appreciate Reviewer #2’s comments, which we feel accurately describe our experimental approach and findings, including their limitations.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      This study from the Flores group aims at understanding neuronal circuit changes during adolescence which is an ill-defined, transitional period involving dramatic changes in behavior and anatomy. They focus on DA innervation of the prefrontal cortex, and their interaction with the guidance cue Netrin1. They propose DA axons in the PFC increase in the postnatal period, and their density is reduced in a Netrin 1 knockdown, suggesting that Netrin abets the development of this mesocortical pathway. 

      We feel it necessary to point out that we are not the first to propose that dopamine axons in the prefrontal cortex increase in the postnatal period.  This is well-established and was first documented in rodents in the 1980s (Kalsbeek et al., 1988). Otherwise we agree with Reviewer 3’s characterization.

      In such mice impulsivity gauged by a go-no go task is reduced. They then provide some evidence that Unc5c is developmentally regulated in DA axons. Finally they use an interesting hamster model, to study the effect of light hours on mesocortical innervation, and make some interesting observations about the timing of innervation and Unc5c expression, and the fact that females housed in winter day length conditions display an accelerated innervation of the prefrontal cortex.

      We agree with Reviewer #3’s characterization of our study and findings here.

      Comments on the revision. Several points were addressed; some remain to be addressed.

      (4) It's not clear to me that TH doesnt stain noradrenergic axons in the PFC. See Islam and Blaess, 2021, and references therein.

      Presuming that Reviewer #3 is referring to Islam et al. (2021), the review they cite supports our position that TH-stained axons in the forebrain are by-and-large dopamine axons.

      Nonetheless, Islam et al. do point out that it is important to keep in mind that TH-positive axons have a slight possibility of being noradrenaline axons. We are very conscious of this possibility and are careful to minimize this risk. As we state in the methods, we only examine axons that are morphologically consistent with dopamine axons and are localized to areas within the forebrain where dopamine axons are known to innervate, in addition to being THpositive. The localization and morphology of noradrenaline axons in the forebrain is different from that of dopamine axons. This is stated in our methods on lines 76-94, where we describe in detail the differentiation between dopamine and norepinephrine axons and include a full list of relevant citations.

      (6) The Netrin knockdown data provided is from a previous study/samples.

      Indeed, however the experiments for the two manuscripts were conducted contemporaneously. We believe two sets of validation experiments are not required.

      (8) While the authors make the argument that the behavior is linked to DA, they still haven't formally tested it, in my opinion.

      We agree that we have not formally tested this link. However, we disagree that we claim to have established a formal link in our manuscript.

      (1). Fig 3, UNc 5c  levels are not yet quantified. Furthermore, I agree with the previous reviewer that Unc5C knockdown would corroborate key aspects of the model.

      We present UNC5c quantities for mice in our first response to reviewers (Figure 11 therein) however we did not do so for the hamsters due to the time involved. We are planning further experiments with the hamsters and may include quantification of UNC5c in the nucleus accumbens at such time. However, we do not feel its absence from this manuscript calls into question our findings.

      With regards to the UNC5c knockdown, we agree it would be an informative extension of our findings here, but again we do not feel that it is necessary to corroborate our current findings.

      New - Developmental trajectory of prefrontal TH-positive axons from early adolescence to adulthood is similar in male and female rats, (Willing Juraska et al., 2017). This needs discussion.

      Willing et al. (2017) reported an increase in prefrontal dopamine density during adolescence in male and female rats, with a non-significant trend towards an earlier increase in females.

      This is in line with our current results in mice indicating that the timing of dopamine axon targeting and growth is sex specific. We are currently testing this idea directly using intersectional viral tracing methods. We now added the following sentence to the manuscript: 

      “Differences in the precise timing of dopamine innervation to the PFC in adolescence have been suggested by findings reported in male and female rats (Willing et al., 2017)”.

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    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment

      In this potentially useful study, the authors attempt to use comparative meta-analysis to advance our understanding of life history evolution. Unfortunately, both the meta-analysis and the theoretical model is inadequate and proper statistical and mechanistic descriptions of the simulations are lacking. Specifically, the interpretation overlooks the effect of well-characterised complexities in the relationship between clutch size and fitness in birds.

      Public Reviews:

      We would like to thank the reviewers for their helpful comments, which have been considered carefully and have been valuable in progressing our manuscript. The following bullet points summarise the key points and our responses, though our detailed responses to specific comments can be found below:<br /> - Two reviewers commented that our data was not made available. Our data was provided upon submission and during the review process, however was not made accessible to the reviewers. Our data and code are available at https://doi.org/10.5061/dryad.q83bk3jnk.

      - The reviewers have highlighted that some of our methodology was unclear and we have added all the requested detail to ensure our methods can be easily understood.

      - The reviewers highlight the importance of our conclusions, but also suggest some interpretations might be missing and/or are incomplete. To make clear how we objectively interpreted our data and the wider consequences for life-history theory we provide a decision tree (Figure 5). This figure makes clear where we think the boundaries are in our interpretation and how multiple lines of evidence converge to the same conclusions.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      This paper falls in a long tradition of studies on the costs of reproduction in birds and its contribution to understanding individual variation in life histories. Unfortunately, the meta-analyses only confirm what we know already, and the simulations based on the outcome of the meta-analysis have shortcomings that prevent the inferences on optimal clutch size, in contrast to the claims made in the paper.

      There was no information that I could find on the effect sizes used in the meta-analyses other than a figure listing the species included. In fact, there is more information on studies that were not included. This made it impossible to evaluate the data-set. This is a serious omission, because it is not uncommon for there to be serious errors in meta-analysis data sets. Moreover, in the long run the main contribution of a meta-analysis is to build a data set that can be included in further studies.

      It is disappointing that two referees comment on data availability, as we supplied a link to our full dataset and the code we used in Dryad with our submitted manuscript. We were also asked to supply our data during the review process and we again supplied a link to our dataset and code, along with a folder containing the data and code itself. We received confirmation that the reviewers had been given our data and code. We support open science and it was our intention that our dataset should be fully available to reviewers and readers. Our data and code are at https://doi.org/10.5061/dryad.q83bk3jnk.

      The main finding of the meta-analysis of the brood size manipulation studies is that the survival costs of enlarging brood size are modest, as previously reported by Santos & Nakagawa on what I suspect to be mostly the same data set.

      We disagree that the main finding of our paper is the small survival cost of manipulated brood size. The major finding of the paper, in our opinion, is that the effect sizes for experimental and observational studies are in opposite directions, therefore providing the first quantitative evidence to support the influential theoretical framework put forward by van Noordwijk and de Jong (1986), that individuals differ in their optimal clutch size and are constrained to reproducing at this level due to a trade-off with survival. We further show that while the manipulation experiments have been widely accepted to be informative, they are not in fact an effective test of whether within-species variation in clutch size is the result of a trade-off between reproduction and survival.

      The comment that we are reporting the same finding as Santos & Nakagawa (2012) is a misrepresentation of both that study and our own. Santos & Nakagawa found an effect of parental effort on survival only in males who had their clutch size increased – but no effect for males who had their clutch size reduced and no survival effect on females for either increasing or reducing parental effort. However, we found an overall reduction in survival for birds who had brood sizes manipulated to be larger than their original brood (for both sexes and mixed sex studies combined). In our supplementary information, we demonstrate that the overall survival effect of a change in reproductive effort is close to zero for males, negative (though non-significant) for females and significantly negative for mixed sexes (which are not included in the Santos & Nakagawa study). Please also note that the Santos & Nakagawa study was conducted over 10 years ago. This means we added additional data (L364-365). Furthermore, meta-analyses are an evolving practice and we also corrected and improved on the overall analysis approach (e.g. L358-359 and L 393-397, and see detailed SI).

      The paper does a very poor job of critically discussing whether we should take this at face value or whether instead there may be short-comings in the general experimental approach. A major reason why survival cost estimates are barely significantly different from zero may well be that parents do not fully adjust their parental effort to the manipulated brood size, either because of time/energy constraints, because it is too costly and therefore not optimal, or because parents do not register increased offspring needs. Whatever the reason, as a consequence, there is usually a strong effect of brood size manipulation on offspring growth and thereby presumably their fitness prospects. In the simulations (Fig.4), the consequences of the survival costs of reproduction for optimal clutch size were investigated without considering brood size manipulation effects on the offspring. Effects on offspring are briefly acknowledged in the discussion, but otherwise ignored. Assuming that the survival costs of reproduction are indeed difficult to discern because the offspring bear the brunt of the increase in brood size, a simulation that ignores the latter effect is unlikely to yield any insight in optimal clutch size. It is not clear therefore what we learn from these calculations.

      The reviewer’s comment is somewhat of a paradox. We take the best studied example of the trade-off between reproductive effort and parental survival – a key theme in life history and the biology of ageing – and subject this to a meta-analysis. The reviewer suggests we should interpret our finding as if there must be something wrong with the method or studies we included, rather than considering that the original hypothesis could be false or inflated in importance. We do not consider questioning the premise of the data over questioning a favoured hypothesis to necessarily be the best scientific approach here. In many places in our manuscript, we question and address, at length, the underlying data and their interpretation (L116-117, L165-167, 202-204 and L277-282). Moreover, we make it clear that we focus on the trade-off between current reproductive effort and subsequent parental survival, while being aware that other trade-offs could counter-balance or explain our findings (discussed on L208-210 & L301-316). Note that it is also problematic, when you do not find the expected response, to search for an alternative that has not been measured. In the case here, of potential trade-offs, there are endless possibilities of where a trade-off might operate between traits. We purposefully focus on the one well-studied and most commonly invoked trade-off. We clearly acknowledge, though, that when all possible trade-offs are taken into account a trade-off on the fitness level can occur and cite two famous studies (Daan et al., 1990 and Verhulst & Tinbergen 1991) that have shown just that (L314-316).

      So whilst we agree with the reviewer that the offspring may incur costs themselves, rather than costs being incurred by the parents, the aim of our study was to test for a general trend across species in the survival costs of reproductive effort. It is unrealistic to suggest that incorporating offspring growth into our simulations would add insight, as a change in offspring number rarely affects all offspring in the nest equally and there can even be quite stark differences; for example, this will be most evident in species that produce sacrificial offspring. This effect will be further confounded by catch-up growth, for example, and so it is likely that increased sibling competition from added chicks alters offspring growth trajectories, rather than absolute growth as the reviewer suggests. There are mixed results in the literature on the effect of altering clutch size on offspring survival, with an increased clutch size through manipulation often increasing the number of recruits from a nest.

      What we do appreciate from the reviewer’s comment is that the interpretation of our findings is complex. Even though our in-text explanation includes the caveats the reviewer refers to, and are discussed at length, their inter-relationships are hard to appreciate from a text format. To improve this presentation and for ease of the reader, we have added a decision tree (Figure 5) which represents the logical flow from the hypothesis being tested through to what overall conclusion can be drawn from our results. We believe this clarifies what conclusions can be drawn from our results. We emphasise again that the theory that trade-offs between reproductive effort and parental survival being the major driver of variation in offspring production was not supported though is the one that practitioners in the field would be most likely to invoke, and our result is important for this reason.

      There are other reasons why brood size manipulations may not reveal the costs of reproduction animals would incur when opting for a larger brood size than they produced spontaneously themselves. Firstly, the manipulations do not affect the effort incurred in laying eggs (which also biases your comparison with natural variation in clutch size). Secondly, the studies by Boonekamp et al on Jackdaws found that while there was no effect of brood size manipulation on parental survival after one year of manipulation, there was a strong effect when the same individuals were manipulated in the same direction in multiple years. This could be taken to mean that costs are not immediate but delayed, explaining why single year manipulations generally show little effect on survival. It would also mean that most estimates of the fitness costs of manipulated brood size are not fit for purpose, because typically restricted to survival over a single year.

      First, our results did show a survival cost of reproduction for brood manipulations (L107-123, Figure 1, Table 1). Note, however, that much theory is built on the immediate costs of reproduction and, as such, these costs are likely overinterpreted, meaning that our overall interpretation still holds, i.e. “parental survival trade-off is not the major determinative trade-off in life history within-species” (Figure 5).

      We agree with the reviewer that lifetime manipulations could be even more informative than single-year manipulations. Unfortunately, there are currently too few studies available to be able to draw generalisable conclusions across species for lifetime manipulations. This is, however, the reason we used lifetime change in clutch size in our fitness projections, which the reviewer seems to have missed – please see methods line 466-468, where we explicitly state that this is lifetime enlargement. Of course, such interpretations do not include an accumulation of costs that is greater than the annual cost, but currently there is no clear evidence that such an assumption is valid. Such a conclusion can also not be drawn from the study on jackdaws by Boonekamp et al (2014) as the treatments were life-long and, therefore, cannot separate annual from accrued (multiplicative) costs that are more than the sum of the annual costs incurred. Note that we have now included specific discussion of this study in response to the reviewer (L265-269).

      Details of how the analyses were carried out were opaque in places, but as I understood the analysis of the brood size manipulation studies, manipulation was coded as a covariate, with negative values for brood size reductions and positive values for brood size enlargements (and then variably scaled or not to control brood or clutch size). This approach implicitly assumes that the trade-off between current brood size (manipulation) and parental survival is linear, which contrasts with the general expectation that this trade-off is not linear. This assumption reduces the value of the analysis, and contrasts with the approach of Santos & Nakagawa.

      We thank the reviewer for highlighting a lack of clarity in places in our methods. We have added additional detail to the methodology section (see “Study sourcing & inclusion criteria” and “Extracting effect sizes”) in our revised manuscript. Note, that our data and code was not shared with the reviewers despite us supplying this upon submission and again during the review process, which would have explained a lot more of the detail required.

      For clarity in our response, each effect size was extracted by performing a logistic regression with survival as a binary response variable and clutch size was the absolute value of offspring in the nest (i.e., for a bird that laid a clutch size of 5 but was manipulated to have -1 egg, we used a clutch size value of 4). The clutch size was also standardised and, separately, expressed as a proportion of the species’ mean.

      We disagree that our approach reduces the value of our analysis. First, our approach allows a direct comparison between experimental and observational studies, which is the novelty of our study. Our approach does differ from Santos & Nakagawa but we disagree that it contrasts. Our approach allows us to take into consideration the severity of the change in clutch size, which Santos & Nakagawa do not. Therefore, we do not agree that our approach is worse at accounting for non-linearity of trade-offs than the approach used by Santos & Nakagawa. Arguably, the approach by Santos & Nakagawa is worse, as they dichotomise effort as increased or decreased, factorise their output and thereby inflate their number of outcomes, of which only 1 cell of 4 categories is significant (for males and females, increased and decreased brood size). The proof is in the pudding as well, as our results clearly demonstrate that the magnitude of the manipulation is a key factor driving the results, i.e. one offspring for a seabird is a larger proportion of care (and fitness) than one offspring for a passerine. Such insights were not achieved by Santos & Nakagawa’s method and, again, did not allow a direct quantitative comparison between quality (correlational) and experimental (brood size manipulation, i.e. “trade-off”) effects, which forms a central part of our argumentation (Figure 5). 

      Our analysis, alongside a plethora of other ecological studies, does assume that the response to our predictor variable is linear. However, it is common knowledge that there are very few (if any) truly linear relationships. We use linear relationships because they serve a good approximation of the trend and provide a more rigorous test for an underlying relationship than would fitting nonlinear models. For many datasets the range of added chicks required to estimate a non-linear relationship was not available. The question also remains of what the shape of such a non-linear relationship should be and is hard to determine a priori. There is also a real risk when fitting non-linear terms that they are spurious and overinterpreted, as they often present a better fit (denoting one df is not sufficient especially when slopes vary). We have added this detail to our discussion.

      The observational study selection is not complete and apparently no attempt was made to make it complete. This is a missed opportunity - it would be interesting to learn more about interspecific variation in the association between natural variation in clutch size and parental survival.

      We clearly state in our manuscript that we deliberately tailored the selection of studies to match the manipulation studies (L367-369). We paired species extracted for observational studies with those extracted in experimental studies to facilitate a direct comparison between observational and experimental studies, and to ensure that the respective datasets were comparable. The reviewer’s focus in this review seems to be solely on the experimental dataset. This comment dismisses the equally important observational component of our analysis and thereby fails to acknowledge one of the key questions being addressed in this study. Note that in our revised version we have edited the phylogenetic tree to indicate for which species we have both types of information, which highlights our approach to selecting observational data (Figure 3).

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      I have read with great interest the manuscript entitled "The optimal clutch size revisited: separating individual quality from the costs of reproduction" by LA Winder and colleagues. The paper consists in a meta-analysis comparing survival rates from studies providing clutch sizes of species that are unmanipulated and from studies where the clutch sizes are manipulated, in order to better understand the effects of differences in individual quality and of the costs of reproduction. I find the idea of the manuscript very interesting. However, I am not sure the methodology used allows to reach the conclusions provided by the authors (mainly that there is no cost of reproduction, and that the entire variation in clutch size among individuals of a population is driven by "individual quality").

      We would like to highlight that we do not conclude that there is no cost of reproduction. Please see lines 336–339, where we state that our lack of evidence for trade-offs driving within-species variation in clutch size does not necessarily mean the costs of reproduction are non-existent. We conclude that individuals are constrained to their optima by the survival cost of reproduction. It is also an over-statement of our conclusion to say that we believe that variation in clutch size is only driven by quality. Our results show that unmanipulated birds that have larger clutch sizes also lived longer, and we suggest that this is evidence that some individuals are “better” than others, but we do not say, nor imply, that no other factors affect variation in clutch size. We have added Figure 5 to our manuscript to help the reader better understand what questions we can answer with our study and what conclusions we can draw from our results.

      I write that I am not sure, because in its current form, the manuscript does not contain a single equation, making it impossible to assess. It would need at least a set of mathematical descriptions for the statistical analysis and for the mechanistic model that the authors infer from it.

      We appreciate this comment, and have explained our methods in terms that are accessible to a wider audience. Note, however, that our meta-analysis is standard and based on logistic regression and standard meta-analytic practices. We have added the model formula to the model output tables.

      For the simulation, we simply simulated the resulting effects. We of course supplied our code for this along with our manuscript (https://doi.org/10.5061/dryad.q83bk3jnk), though as we mentioned above, we believe this was not shared with the reviewers despite us making this available for the review process. We therefore understand why the reviewer feels the simulations were not explained thoroughly. We have revised our methods section and added details which we believe make our methodology more clear without needing to consult the supplemental material. However, we have also added the equations used in the process of calculating our simulated data to the Supplementary Information for readers who wish to have this information in equation form.

      The texts mixes concepts of individual vs population statistics, of within individual vs among-individuals measures, of allocation trade-offs and fitness trade-offs, etc ....which means it would also require a glossary of the definitions the authors use for these various terms, in order to be evaluated.

      We would like to thank the reviewer for highlighting this lack of clarity in our text. Throughout the manuscript we have refined our terminology and indicated where we are referring to the individual level or the population level. The inclusion of our new Figure 5 (decision tree) should also help in this context, as it is clear on which level we base our interpretation and conclusions on.

      This problem is emphasised by the following sentence to be found in the discussion "The effect of birds having naturally larger clutches was significantly opposite to the result of increasing clutch size through brood manipulation". The "effect" is defined as the survival rate (see Fig 1). While it is relatively easy to intuitively understand what the "effect" is for the unmanipulated studies: the sensitivity of survival to clutch size at the population level, this should be mentioned and detailed in a formula. Moreover, the concept of effect size is not at all obvious for the manipulated ones (effect of the manipulation? or survival rate whatever the manipulation (then how could it measure a trade-off ?)? at the population level? at the individual level ?) despite a whole appendix dedicated to it. This absolutely needs to be described properly in the manuscript.

      Thank you for identifying this sentence for which the writing was ambiguous, our apologies. We have now rewritten this and included additional explanation. L282-290: ‘The effect on parental annual survival of having naturally larger clutches was significantly opposite to the result of increasing clutch size through brood manipulation, and quantitatively similar. Parents with naturally larger clutches are thus expected to live longer and this counterbalances the “cost of reproduction” when their brood size is experimentally manipulated. It is, therefore, possible that quality effects mask trade-offs. Furthermore, it could be possible that individuals that lay larger clutches have smaller costs of reproduction, i.e. would respond less in terms of annual survival to a brood size manipulation, but with our current dataset we cannot address this hypothesis (Figure 5).’

      We would also like to thank the reviewer for bringing to our attention the lack of clarity about the details of our methodology. We have added details to our methodology (see “Extracting effect sizes” section) to address this (see highlighted sections). For clarity, the effect size for both manipulated and unmanipulated nests was survival, given the brood size raised. We performed a logistic regression with survival as a binary response variable (i.e., number of individuals that survived and number of individuals that died after each breeding season), and clutch size was the absolute value of offspring in the nest (i.e., for a bird that laid a clutch size of 5 but was manipulated to have -1 egg, we used a clutch size value of 4). This allows for direct comparison of the effect size (survival given clutch size raised) between manipulated and unmanipulated birds.

      Despite the lack of information about the underlying mechanistic model tested and the statistical model used, my impression is still that the interpretation in the introduction and discussion is not granted by the outputs of the figures and tables. Let's use a model similar to that of (van Noordwijk and de Jong, 1986): imagine that the mechanism at the population level is

      a.c_(i,q)+b.s_(i,q)=E_q

      Where c_(i,q) are s_(i,q) are respectively the clutch size for individual i which is of quality q, and E_q is the level of "energy" that an individual of quality q has available during the given time-step (and a and b are constants turning the clutch size and survival rate into energy cost of reproduction and energy cost of survival, and there are both quite "high" so that an extra egg (c_(i,q) is increased by 1) at the current time-step, decreases s_(i,q) markedly (E_q is independent of the number of eggs produced), that is, we have strong individual costs of reproduction). Imagine now that the variance of c_(i,q) (when the population is not manipulated) among individuals of the same quality group, is very small (and therefore the variance of s_(i,q) is very small also) and that the expectation of both are proportional to E_q. Then, in the unmanipulated population, the variance in clutch size is mainly due to the variance in quality. And therefore, the larger the clutch size c_(i,q) the higher E_q, and the higher the survival s_(i,q).

      In the manipulated populations however, because of the large a and b, an artificial increase in clutch size, for a given E_q, will lead to a lower survival s_(i,q). And the "effect size" at the population level may vary according to a,b and the variances mentioned above. In other words, the costs of reproduction may be strong, but be hidden by the data, when there is variance in quality; however there are actually strong costs of reproduction (so strong actually that they are deterministic and that the probability to survive is a direct function of the number of eggs produced)

      We would like to thank the reviewer for these comments. We have added detail to our methodology section so our models and rationale are more clear. Please note that our simulations only take the experimental effect of brood size on parental survival into account. Our model does not incorporate quality effects. The reviewer is right that the relationship between quality and the effects exposed by manipulating brood size can take many forms and this is a very interesting topic, but not one we aimed to tackle in our manuscript. In terms of quality we make two points: (1) overall quality effects connecting reproduction and parental survival are present, (2) these effects are opposite in direction to the effects when reproduction is manipulated and similar in magnitude. We do not go further than that in interpreting our results. The reviewer is correct, however, that we do suggest and repeat suggestions by others that quality can also mask the trade-off in some individuals or circumstances (L74-76, L95-98 & L286-289), but we do not quantify this, as it is dependent on the unknown relationship between quality and the response to the manipulation. A focussed set of experiments in that context would be interesting and there are some data that could get at this, i.e. the relationship between produced clutch size and the relative effect of the manipulation (now included L287-290). Such information is, however, not available for all studies and, although we explored the possibility of analysing this, currently this is not possible with adequate confidence and there is the possible complexity of non-linear effects. We have added this rationale in our revision (L259-265).

      Moreover, it seems to me that the costs of reproduction are a concept closely related to generation time. Looking beyond the individual allocative (and other individual components of the trade-off) cost of reproduction and towards a populational negative relationship between survival and reproduction, we have to consider the intra-population slow fast continuum (some types of individuals survive more and reproduce less (are slower) than other (which are faster)). This continuum is associated with a metric: the generation time. Some individuals will produce more eggs and survive less in a given time-period because this time-period corresponds to a higher ratio of their generation time (Gaillard and Yoccoz, 2003; Gaillard et al., 2005). It seems therefore important to me, to control for generation time and in general to account for the time-step used for each population studied when analysing costs of reproduction. The data used in this manuscript is not just clutch size and survival rates, but clutch size per year (or another time step) and annual (or other) survival rates.

      The reviewer is right that this is interesting. There is a longstanding unexplained difference in temperate (seasonal) and tropical reproductive strategies. Most of our data come from seasonal breeders, however. Although there is some variation in second brooding and such, these species mostly only produce one brood. We do agree that a wider consideration here is relevant, but we are not trying to explain all of life history in our paper. It is clearly the case that other factors will operate and the opportunity for trade-offs will vary among species according to their respective life histories. However, our study focuses on the two most fundamental components of fitness – longevity and reproduction – to test a major hypothesis in the field, and we uncover new relationships that contrast with previous influential studies and cast doubt on previous conclusions. We question the assumed trade-off between reproduction and annual survival. We show that quality is important and that the effect we find in experimental studies is so small that it can only explain between-species patterns but is unlikely to be the selective force that constrains reproduction within species. We do agree that there is a lot more work that can be done in this area. We hope we are contributing to the field, by questioning this central trade-off. We have incorporated some of the reviewers suggestions in the revision (L309-315). We have added Figure 5 to make clear where we are able to reach solid conclusions and the evidence on which these are based as clearly as possible in an easily accessible format.

      Finally, it is important to relate any study of the costs of reproduction in a context of individual heterogeneity (in quality for instance), to the general problem of the detection of effects of individual differences on survival (see, e.g., Fay et al., 2021). Without an understanding of the very particular statistical behaviour of survival, associated to an event that by definition occurs only once per life history trajectory (by contrast to many other traits, even demographic, where the corresponding event (production of eggs for reproduction, for example) can be measured several times for a given individual during its life history trajectory).

      Thank you for raising this point. The reviewer is right that heterogeneity can dampen or augment selection. Note that by estimating the effect of quality here we give an example of how heterogeneity can possibly do exactly this. We thank the reviewer for raising that we should possibly link this to wider effects of heterogeneity and we have added to our discussion of how our results play into the importance of accounting for among-individual heterogeneity (L252-256).

      References:

      Fay, R. et al. (2021) 'Quantifying fixed individual heterogeneity in demographic parameters: Performance of correlated random effects for Bernoulli variables', Methods in Ecology and Evolution, 2021(August), pp. 1-14. doi: 10.1111/2041-210x.13728.

      Gaillard, J.-M. et al. (2005) 'Generation time: a reliable metric to measure life-history variation among mammalian populations.', The American naturalist, 166(1), pp. 119-123; discussion 124-128. doi: 10.1086/430330.

      Gaillard, J.-M. and Yoccoz, N. G. (2003) 'Temporal Variation in Survival of Mammals: a Case of Environmental Canalization?', Ecology, 84(12), pp. 3294-3306. doi: 10.1890/02-0409.

      van Noordwijk, A. J. and de Jong, G. (1986) 'Acquisition and Allocation of Resources: Their Influence on Variation in Life History Tactics', American Naturalist, p. 137. doi: 10.1086/284547.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      The authors present here a comparative meta-analysis analysis designed to detect evidence for a reproduction/ survival trade-off, central to expectations from life history theory. They present variation in clutch size within species as an observation in conflict with expectations of optimisation of clutch size and suggest that this may be accounted for from weak selection on clutch size. The results of their analyses support this explanation - they found little evidence of a reproduction - survival trade-off across birds. They extrapolated from this result to show in a mathematical model that the fitness consequences of enlarged clutch sizes would only be expected to have a significant effect on fitness in extreme cases, outside of normal species' clutch size ranges. Given the centrality of the reproduction-survival trade-off, the authors suggest that this result should encourage us to take a more cautious approach to applying concepts the trade-off in life history theory and optimisation in behavioural ecology more generally. While many of the findings are interesting, I don't think the argument for a major re-think of life history theory and the role of trade-offs in fitness maximisation is justified.

      The interest of the paper, for me, comes from highlighting the complexities of the link between clutch size and fitness, and the challenges facing biologists who want to detect evidence for life history trade-offs. Their results highlight apparently contradictory results from observational and experimental studies on the reproduction-survival trade-off and show that species with smaller clutch sizes are under stronger selection to limit clutch size.

      Unfortunately, the authors interpret the failure to detect a life history trade-off as evidence that there isn't one. The construction of a mathematical model based on this interpretation serves to give this possible conclusion perhaps more weight than is merited on the basis of the results, of this necessarily quite simple, meta-analysis. There are several potential complicating factors that could explain the lack of detection of a trade-off in these studies, which are mentioned and dismissed as unimportant (lines 248-250) without any helpful, rigorous discussion. I list below just a selection of complexities which perhaps deserve more careful consideration by the authors to help readers understand the implications of their results:

      We would like to thank the reviewer for their thoughtful response and summary of the findings that we also agree are central to our study. The reviewer also highlights areas where our manuscript could benefit from a deeper consideration and we have added detail accordingly to our revised discussion.

      We would like to highlight that we do not interpret the failure to detect a trade-off as evidence that there is not one. First, and importantly, we do find a trade-off but show this is only incurred when individuals produce a clutch beyond their optimal level. Second, we also state on lines 322-326 that the lack of evidence to support trade-offs being strong enough to drive variation in clutch size does not necessarily mean there are no costs of reproduction.

      The statement that we have constructed a mathematical model based on the interpretation that we have not found a trade-off is, again, factually incorrect. We ran these simulations because the opposite is true – we did find a trade-off. There is a significant effect of clutch size when manipulated on annual parental survival. We benefit from our unique analysis allowing for a quantitative fitness estimate from the effect size on annual survival (as this is expressed on a per-egg basis). This allowed us to ask whether this quantitative effect size can alone explain why reproduction is constrained, and we evaluate this using simulations. From these simulations we find that this effect size is too small to explain the constraint, so something else must be going on, and we do spend a considerable amount of text discussing the possible explanations (L202-215). Note that the possibly most parsimonious conclusion here is that costs of reproduction are not there, or simply small, so we also give that explanation some thought (L221-224 and L315-331).

      We are disappointed by the suggestion that we have dismissed complicating factors that could prevent detection of a trade-off, as this was not our intention. We were aiming to highlight that what we have demonstrated to be an apparent trade-off can be explained through other mechanisms, and that the trade-off between clutch size and survival is not as strong in driving within-species variation in clutch size as previously assumed. We have added further discussion to our revised manuscript to make this clear and give readers a better understanding of the complexity of factors associated with life-history theory, including the addition of a decision tree (Figure 5).

      • Reproductive output is optimised for lifetime reproductive success and so the consequences of being pushed off the optimum for one breeding attempt are not necessarily detectable in survival but in future reproductive success (and, therefore, lifetime reproductive success).

      We agree this is a valid point, which is mentioned in our manuscript in terms of alternative stages where the costs of reproduction might be manifested (L316-320). We would also like to highlight that , in our simulations, the change in clutch size (and subsequent survival cost) was assumed for the lifetime of the individual, for this very reason.

      • The analyses include some species that hatch broods simultaneously and some that hatch sequentially (although this information is not explicitly provided (see below)). This is potentially relevant because species which have been favoured by selection to set up a size asymmetry among their broods often don't even try to raise their whole broods but only feed the biggest chicks until they are sated; any added chicks face a high probability of starvation. The first point this observation raises is that the expectation of more chicks= more cost, doesn't hold for all species. The second more general point is that the very existence of the sequential hatching strategy to produce size asymmetry in a brood is very difficult to explain if you reject the notion of a trade-off.

      We agree with the reviewer that the costs of reproduction can be absorbed by the offspring themselves, and may not be equal across offspring (we also highlight this at L317-318 in the manuscript). However, we disagree that for some species the addition of more chicks does not equate to an increase in cost, though we do accept this might be less for some species. This is, however, difficult to incorporate into a sensible model as the impacts will vary among species and some species do also exhibit catch-up growth. So, without a priori knowledge on this, we kept our model simple to test whether the effect on parental survival (often assumed to be a strong cost) can explain the constraint on reproductive effort, and we conclude that it does not.

      We would also like to make clear that we are not rejecting the notion of a trade-off. Our study shows evidence that a trade-off between survival and reproductive effort probably does not drive within-species variation in clutch size. We do explicitly say this throughout our manuscript, and also provide suggestions of other areas where a trade-off may exist (L317-320). The point of our study is not whether trade-offs exist or not, it is whether there is a generalisable across-species trend for a trade-off between reproductive effort and survival – the most fundamental trade-off in our field but for which there is a lack of conclusive evidence within species. We believe the addition of Figure 5 to our reviewed manuscript also makes this more evident.

      • For your standard, pair-breeding passerine, there is an expectation that costs of raising chicks will increase linearly with clutch size. Each chick requires X feeding visits to reach the required fledge weight. But this is not the case for species which lay precocious chicks which are relatively independent and able to feed themselves straight after hatching - so again the relationship of care and survival is unlikely to be detectable by looking at the effect of clutch size but again, it doesn't mean there isn't a trade-off between breeding and survival.

      Precocial birds still provide a level of parental care, such as protection from predators. Though we agree that the level of parental care in provisioning food (and in some cases in all parental care given) is lower in precocial than altricial birds, this would only make our reported effect size for manipulated birds to be an underestimate. Again, we would like to draw the reviewer’s attention to the fact we did detect a trade-off in manipulated birds and we do not suggest that trade-offs do not exist. The argument the reviewer suggests here does not hold for unmanipulated birds, as we found that birds that naturally lay larger clutch sizes have higher survival.

      • The costs of raising a brood to adulthood for your standard pair-breeding passerine is bound to be extreme, simply by dint of the energy expenditure required. In fact, it was shown that the basal metabolic rate of breeding passerines was at the very edge of what is physiologically possible, the human equivalent being cycling the Tour de France (Nagy et al. 1990). If birds are at the very edge of what is physiologically possible, is it likely that clutch size is under weak selection?

      If birds are at the very edge of what is physiologically possible, then indeed it would necessarily follow that if they increase the resource allocated in one area then expenditure in another area must be reduced. In many studies, however, the overall brood mass is increased when chicks are added and cared for in an experimental setting, suggesting that birds are not operating at their limit all the time. Our simulations show that if individuals increase their clutch size, the survival cost of reproduction counterbalances the fitness gained by increasing clutch size and so there is no overall fitness gain to producing more offspring. Therefore, selection on clutch size is constrained to the within-species level. We do not say in our manuscript that clutch size is under weak selection – we only ask why variation in clutch size is maintained if selection always favours high-producing birds.

      • Variation in clutch size is presented by the authors as inconsistent with the assumption that birds are under selection to lay the Lack clutch. Of course, this is absurd and makes me think that I have misunderstood the authors' intended point here. At any rate, the paper would benefit from more clarity about how variable clutch size has to be before it becomes a problem for optimality in the authors' view (lines 84-85; line 246). See Perrins (1965) for an exquisite example of how beautifully great tits optimise clutch size on average, despite laying between 5-12 eggs.

      We thank the reviewer for highlighting that our manuscript may be misleading in places, however, we are unsure which part of our conclusions the author is referring to here. The question we pose is “Why don’t all birds produce a clutch size at the population optimum?”, and is central to the decades-long field of life-history theory. Why is variation maintained? As the reviewer outlines, there is extensive variability, with some birds laying half of what other birds lay.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Title: while the costs of reproduction are possibly important in shaping optimal clutch size, it is not clear what you can about it given that you do not consider clutch / brood size effects on fitness prospects of the offspring.

      We have expanded on our discussion of how some costs may be absorbed by the offspring themselves. However, a change in offspring number rarely affects all offspring in the nest equally and there can even be quite stark differences; for example this will be most evident in species that produce sacrificial offspring. This effect will be further confounded by catch-up growth. There are mixed results in the literature on the effect of altering clutch size on offspring survival, with an increased clutch size through manipulation often increasing the number of recruits from a nest. We have focussed on the relationship between reproductive effort and survival because it is given the most weight in the field in terms of driving intra-specific variation in clutch size. We have altered our title to show we focus on the survival costs specifically: “The optimal clutch size revisited: separating individual quality from the parental survival costs of reproduction”.

      (2) L.11-12: I agree that this is true for birds, but this is phrased more generally here. Are you sure that that is justified?

      The trade-off between survival and reproductive effort has largely been tested experimentally through brood manipulations in birds as this provides a good system in which to test the costs and benefits of increasing parental effort. The work in this area has provided theory beyond just passerine birds, which are the most commonly manipulated group, to across-taxa theories. We are unaware of any study/studies that provide evidence that the reproduction/survival trade-off is generalisable across multiple species in any taxa. As such, we do believe this sentence is justified. An example is the lack of a consistent negative genetic correlation in populations of fruitflies, for example, that has also been hailed as a lack-of-cost paradigm. Furthermore, some mutants that live longer do so without a cost on reproduction.

      (3) L.13-14: Not sure what you mean with this sentence - too much info lacking.

      We have added some detail to this sentence.

      (4) L.14: it is slightly awkward to say 'parental investment and survival' because it is the survival effect that is usually referred to as the 'investment'. Perhaps what you want to say is 'parental effort and survival'?

      We have replaced “parental investment” with “reproductive effort”

      (5) L.15: you can omit 'caused'. Compared to control treatment or to reduced broods? Why not mention effects or lack thereof of brood reduction? And it would be good to also mention here whether effects were similar in the sexes.

      Please see our methodology where we state that we use clutch size as a continuous variable (we do not compare to control or reduced but include the absolute value of offspring in a logistic regression). The effects of a brood reduction are drawn from the same regression and so are opposite. Though we appreciate the detail here is lacking to fully comprehend our study, we would like to highlight this is the abstract and details are provided in the main text.

      (6) L. 15: I am not sure why you write 'however', as the finding that experimental and natural variation have opposite effects is in complete agreement with what is generally reported in the literature and will therefore surprise no one that is aware of the literature.

      We use “however” to highlight the change in direction of the effect size from the results in the previous sentence. We also believe that ours ise the first study that provides a quantitative estimate of this effect and that previous work is largely theoretical. The reviewer states that this is what is generally reported but it is not reported in all cases, as some relationships between reproductive effort and survival are negative (for the quality measurement, in correlational space, see Figure 1).

      (7) L.16: saying 'opposite to the effect of phenotypic quality' seems difficult to justify, as clutch size cannot be equated with phenotypic quality. Perhaps simply say 'natural variation in clutch size'? If that is what you are referring to.

      Please note we are referring to effect sizes here –- that is, the survival effect of a change in clutch size. By phenotypic quality we are referring to the fact that we find higher parental survival when natural clutch sizes are higher. It is not the case that we refer to quality only as having a higher clutch size. This is explicitly stated in the sentence you refer to. We have changed “effect” to “effect size” to highlight this further.

      (8) L.18: why do you refer to 'parental care' here? Brood size is not equivalent to parental care.

      Brood size manipulations are used to manipulate parental care. The effect on parental survival is expected to be incurred because of the increase in parental care. We have changed “parental care” to “reproductive effort” to reduce the number of terms we use in our manuscript.

      (9) L.18-19: suggest to tone down this claim, as this is no more than a meta-analytic confirmation of a view that is (in my view) generally accepted in the field. That does not mean it is not useful, just that it does not constitute any new insight.

      We are unaware of any other study which provides generalisable across-species evidence for opposite effects of quality and costs of reproduction. The work in this area is also largely theoretical and is yet to be supported experimemtally, especially in a quantitative fashion. It is surprising to us that the reviewer considers there to be general acceptance in a field, rather than being influenced by rigorous testing of hypotheses, made possible by meta-analysis, the current gold standard in our field.

      (10) L.21: what does 'parental effort' mean here? You seem to use brood size, parental care, parental effort, and parental investment interchangeably but these are different concepts. Daan et al (1990, Behaviour), which you already cite, provide a useful graph separating these concepts. Please adjust this throughout the manuscript, i.e. replace 'reproductive effort' with wording that reflect the actual variable you use.

      We have not used the phrase “parental effort” in this sentence. We agree these are different concepts but in this context are intertwined. For example, brood size is used to manipulate parental care as a result of increased parental effort. We do agree the manuscript would benefit from keeping terminology consistent throughout the manuscript and have adjusted this throughout.

      (11) L.23: perhaps add 'in birds' somewhere in this sentence? Some reference to the assumptions underlying this inference would also be useful. Two major assumptions being that birds adjusted their effort to the manipulation as they would have done had they opted for a larger brood size themselves, and that the costs of laying and incubating extra eggs can be ignored. And then there is the effect that laying extra eggs will usually delay the hatch date, which in many species reduces reproductive success.

      Though our study does exclusively use birds, birds have been used to test the survival/reproduction trade-off because they present a convenient system in which to experimentally test this. The conclusions from these studies have a broader application than in birds alone. We believe that although these details are important, they are not appropriate in the abstract of our paper.

      (12) L.26: how is this an explanation? It just repeats the finding.

      We intend to refer to all interpretations from all results presented in our manuscript. We have made this more clear by adjusting our writing.

      (13) L.27: I do not see this point. And 'reproductive output' is yet another concept, that can be linked to the other concepts in the abstract in different ways, making it rather opaque.

      We have changed “reproductive output” to “reproductive effort”.

      (14) L.33: here you are jumping from 'resources' to 'energetically' - it is not clear that energy is the only or main limiting resource, so why narrow this down to energy?

      We do not say energy is the only or main limiting resource. We simply highlight that reproduction is energetically demanding and so, intuitively, a trade-off with a highly energetically demanding process would be the focal place to observe a trade off. We have, though, replaced “energetically” with “resource”.

      (15) L.35-36: this is new to me - I am not aware of any such claims, and effects on the residual reproductive value could also arise through effects on future reproduction. The authors you cite did not work on birds, or (in their own study systems) presented results that as far as I remember warrant such a general statement.

      The trade-off between reproduction and survival is seminal to the disposable soma theory, proposed by Kirkwood. Though Kirkwood’s work was largely not focussed on birds, it had fundamental implications for the field of evolutionary ecology because of the generalisable nature of his proposed framework. In particular, it has had wide-reaching influence on how the biology of aging is interpreted. The readership of the journal here is broad, and our results have implications for that field too. The work of Kirkwood (many of the papers on this topic have over 2000 citations each) has been perhaps overly influential in many areas, so a link to how that work should be interpreted is highly relevant. If the reviewer is interested in this topic the following papers by one of the co-authors and others could be of interest, some of which we could not cite in the main manuscript due to space considerations:

      https://www.science.org/doi/pdf/10.1126/sciadv.aay3047

      https://agingcelljournal.org/Archive/Volume3/stochasticity_explains_non_genetic_inheritance_of_lifespan/

      https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21558242/

      https://besjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/1365-2435.13444

      https://www.nature.com/articles/362305a0

      https://www.cell.com/trends/ecology-evolution/fulltext/S0169-5347(12)00147-4

      https://www.cell.com/cell/pdf/S0092-8674(15)01488-9.pdf

      https://bmcbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12915-018-0562-z

      (16) L.42: this could be preceded with mentioning the limitations of observational data.

      We have added detail as to why brood manipulations are a good test for trade-offs and so this is now inherently implied.

      (17) L.42-43: why?

      We have added detail to this sentence.

      (18) L.45: do any of the references cited here really support this statement? I am certain that several do not - in these this statement is an assumption rather than something that is demonstrated. It may be useful to look at Kate Lessell's review on this that appeared in Etologia, I think in the 1990's. Mind however that 'reproductive effort' is operationally poorly defined for reproducing birds - provisioning rate is not necessarily a good measure of effort in so far as there are fitness costs.

      We have updated the references to support the sentence.

      (19) L.47: Given that you make this statement with respect to brood size manipulations in birds, it seems to me that the paper by Santos & Nakagawa is the only paper you should cite here. Given that you go on to analyze the same data it deserves to be discussed in more detail, for example to clarify what you aim to add to their analysis. What warrants repeating their analysis?

      Please first note that our dataset includes Santos & Nakagawa and additional studies, so it is not accurate to say we analyse the same data. Furthermore, we believe our study has implications beyond birds alone and so believe it is appropriate to cite the papers that do support our statement. We have added details to the methods to explicitly state what data is gathered from Santos & Nakagawa (it is only used to find the appropriate literature and data was re-extracted and re-analysed in a more appropriate way) and, separately, how we gathered the observational studies (see L352-381).

      (20) L.48: There are more possible explanations to this, which deserve to be discussed. For example, brood size manipulations may not have been that effective in manipulating reproductive effort - for example, effects on energy expenditure tend to be not terribly convincing. Secondly, the manipulations do not affect the effort incurred in laying eggs (which also biases your comparison with natural variation in clutch size). Thirdly, the studies by Boonekamp et al on Jackdaws found that while there was no effect of brood size manipulation on parental survival after one year of manipulation, there was a strong effect when the same individuals were manipulated in the same direction in multiple years. This could be taken to mean that costs are not immediate but delayed, explaining why single year manipulations generally show little effect on survival. It would also mean that most estimates of the fitness costs of manipulated brood size are not fit for purpose, because typically restricted to survival over a single year.

      Please see our response to this comment in the public reviews.

      Out of interest and because the reviewer mentioned “energy expenditure” specifically: There are studies that show convincing effects of brood size manipulation on parental energy expenditure. We do agree that there are also studies that show ceilings in expenditure. We therefore disagree that they “tend to be not terribly convincing”. Just a few examples:

      https://academic.oup.com/beheco/article/10/5/598/222025 (Figure 2)

      https://besjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/1365-2435.12321 (Figure 1)

      https://besjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1046/j.1365-2656.2000.00395.x (but ceiling at enlarged brood).

      (21) L.48, "or, alternatively, that individuals may differ in quality": how do you see that happening when brood size is manipulated, and hence 'quality' of different experimental categories can be assumed to be approximately equal? This point does apply to observational studies, so I assume that that is what you had in mind, but that distinction should be clear (also on line 54).

      We have made it more clear that we determine if there are quality effects separate to the costs of reproduction found using brood manipulation studies.

      (22) L.50: Drent & Daan, in their seminal paper on "The prudent parent" (1980, Ardea) were among the earliest to make this point and deserve to be cited here.

      We have added this citation

      (23) L.51, "relative importance": relative to what? Please be more specific.

      We have adjusted this sentence.

      (24) L.54: Vedder & Bouwhuis (2018, Oikos) go some way towards this point and should be explicitly mentioned with reference to the role of 'quality' effects on the association between reproductive output and survival.

      We have added this reference.

      (25) L.55: can you be more specific on what you want to do exactly? What you write here could be interpreted differently.

      We have added an explicit aim after this sentence to be more clear.

      (26) L.57: Here also a more specific wording would be useful. What does it mean exactly when you say you will distinguish between 'quality' and 'costs'?

      We have added detail to this sentence.

      (27) L.62: it should be clearer from the introduction that this is already well known, which will indirectly emphasize what you are adding to what we know already.

      We would argue this is not well known and has only been theorised but not shown empirically, as we do here.

      (28) L.62: you equate clutch size with 'quality' here - that needs to be spelled out.

      We refer to quality as the positive effect size of survival for a given clutch size, not clutch size alone. We appreciate this is not clear in this sentence and have reworded.

      (29) L.64: this looks like a serious misunderstanding to me, but in any case, these inferences should perhaps be left to the discussion (this also applies to later parts of this paragraph), when you have hopefully convinced readers of the claims you make on lines 62-63.

      We are unsure of what the reviewer is referring to as a misunderstanding. We have chosen this format for the introduction to highlight our results. If this is a problem for the editors we will change as required.

      (30) L.66: quantitative comparison of what?

      Comparison of species. We have changed the wording of this sentence

      (31) L.67-69: this should be in the methods.

      We have used a modern format which highlights our result. We are happy to change the format should the editors wish us to.

      (32) L.74-88: suggest to (re)move this entire paragraph, presenting inferences in such an uncritical manner before presenting the evidence is inappropriate in my view. I have therefore refrained from commenting on this paragraph.

      We have chosen a modern format which highlights our result. We are happy to change the format should the editors wish us to.

      (33) L.271, "must detail variation in the number of raised young": it is not sufficiently clear what this means - what does 'detail' mean in this context? And what does 'number of raised young' mean? The number hatched or raised to fledging?

      We have now made this clear.

      (34) L271, "must detail variation in the number of raised young": looking at table S4, it seems that on the basis of this criterion also brood size manipulation studies where details on the number of young manipulated were missing are excluded. I see little justification for this - surely these manipulations can for example be coded as for example having the average manipulation size in the meta-analysis data set, thereby contributing to tests of manipulation effects, but not to variation within the manipulation groups?

      We have done in part what the reviewer describes. We are specifically interested in the manipulation size, so we required this to compare effect sizes across species and categories, a key advance of our study and outlined in many places in our manuscript. Note, however, that we only need comparative differences, and have used clutch size metrics more generally to obtain a mean clutch size for a species, as well as SD where required. Please also note that our supplement details exactly why studies were excluded from our analysis, as is the preferred practice in a meta-analysis.

      (35) L.271, "referred to as clutch size": the point of this simplification is not clear to me why it is clearly confusing - why not refer to 'brood size' instead?

      Brood size and clutch size can be used interchangeably here because, in the observational studies, the individuals vary in the number of eggs produced, whereas for brood manipulations this obviously happens after hatching and brood is perhaps a more appropriate term, but we wanted to simplify the terminology used. However, we use clutch size throughout as the aim of our study is to determine why individuals differ in the number of offspring they produce, and so clutch size is the most appropriate term for that.

      (36) L.280: according to the specified inclusion criteria (lines 271/272) these studies should already be in the data set, so what does this mean exactly?

      Selection criteria refers to whether a given study should be kept for analysis or not. It does not refer to how studies were found. Please see lines 361-378 for details on how we found studies (additional details are also in the Supplementary Methods).

      (37) L.281: the use of 'quality' here is misleading - natural variation in clutch or brood size will have multiple causes, variation in phenotypic quality of the individuals and their environment (territories) is only one of the causes. Why not simply refer to what you are actually investigating: natural and experimental variation in brood size.

      We disagree, our study aims to separate quality effects from the costs of reproduction and we use observational studies to test for quality differences, though we make no inference about the mechanisms. We do not imply that the environment causes differences in quality, but that to directly compare observation and experimental groups, they should contain similar species. So, to be clear again, quality refers to the positive covariation of clutch size with survival. We feel that we explain this clearly in our study’s rationale and have also improved our writing in several sections on this to avoid any confusion (see responses to earlier comments by the three reviewers).

      (38) L.283, "in most cases": please be exact and say in xx out xx cases.

      We have added the number of studies for each category here.

      (39) L.283-285: presumably readers can see this directly in a table with the extracted data?

      Our data and code can be accessed with the following link: https://doi.org/10.5061/dryad.q83bk3jnk. We believe the data are too large to include as a table in the main text and are not essential in understanding the paper. Though we do believe all readers should have access to this information if they wish and so is publicly available.

      (40) L.293: there does not seem to be a table that lists the included studies and effect sizes. It is not uncommon to find major errors in such tables when one is familiar with the literature, and absence of this information impedes a complete assessment of the manuscript.

      We supplied a link to our full dataset and the code we used in Dryad with our submitted manuscript. We were also asked to supply our data during the review process and we again supplied a link to our dataset and code, along with a folder containing the data and code itself. We received confirmation that the reviewers had been given our data and code. We support open science and it was our intention that our dataset should be fully available to reviewers and readers. We believe the data are too large to include as a table in the main text and are not essential in understanding the paper. Our data and code are at https://doi.org/10.5061/dryad.q83bk3jnk.

      (41) L.293: from how many species?

      We have added this detail.

      (42) L.296, "longevity": this is a tricky concept, not usually reported in the studies you used, so please describe in detail what data you used.

      We have removed longevity as we did not use this data in our current version of the manuscript.

      (43) L. 298: again: where can I see this information?

      Our data and code can be accessed with the following link: https://doi.org/10.5061/dryad.q83bk3jnk. We did supply this information when we submitted our manuscript and again during the review process but we believe this was not passed onto the reviewers.

      (44) L. 304, "we used raw data": I assume that for the majority of papers the raw data were not available, so please explain how you dealt with this. Or perhaps this applies to a selection of the studies only? Perhaps the experimental studies?

      By raw data, we mean the absolute value of offspring in the nest. We have changed the wording of this sentence and added detail about whether the absolute value of offspring was not present for brood manipulation studies (L393-397).

      (45) L.304: When I remember correctly, Santos and Nakagawa examined effects of reducing and enlarging brood size separately, which is of importance because trade-off curves are unlikely to be linear and whether they are or not has major effects on the optimization process. But perhaps you tackled this in another way? I will read on.....

      You are correct that Santos & Nakagawa compared brood increases and reductions to control separately. Note that this only partially accounts non-linearity and it does not take into account the severity of the change in brood size. By using a logistic regression of absolute clutch size, as we have done, we are able to directly compare brood manipulations with experimental studies. Please see Supplementary Methods lines 11-12, where we have added additional detail as to why our approach is beneficial in this analysis.

      (46) L.319: what are you referring to exactly with "for each clutch size transformation"?

      We refer to the raw, standardised and proportional clutch size transformations. We have added detail here to be more clear.

      (47) L.319: is there a cost of survival? Perhaps you mean 'survival cost'? This would be appropriate for the experimental data, but not for the observational data, where the survival variation may be causally unrelated to the brood size variation, even if there is a correlation.

      We have changed “cost of survival” to “effect of parental survival”. We only intend to imply causality for the experimental studies. For observational studies we do not suggest that increasing clutch size is causal for increasing survival, only correlative (and hence we use the phrase “quality”).

      (48) L.320: please replace "parental effort" with something like 'experimental change in brood size'.

      We have changed “parental effort” to “reproductive effort”

      (49) L.321: due to failure of one or more eggs to hatch, and mortality very early in life, before brood sizes are manipulated, it is not likely that say an enlargement of brood size by 1 chick can be equated to the mean clutch size +1 egg / check. For example, in the Wytham great tit study, as re-analysed by Richard Pettifor, a 'brood size manipulation' of unmanipulated birds is approximately -1, being the number of eggs / chicks lost between laying and the time of brood size manipulation. Would this affect your comparisons?

      Though we agree these are important factors in determining what a clutch/brood size actually is for a given individual/pair, as this can vary from egg laying to fledging. We do not believe that accounting for this (if it was possible to do so) would significantly affect our conclusions, as observational studies are comparable in the fact that these birds would also likely see early life mortality of their offspring. It is also possibly the case that parents already factor in this loss, and so a brood manipulation still changes the parental care effort an individual has to incur.

      (50) L.332: instead of "adjusted" perhaps say 'mean centred'?

      We have implemented this suggestion.

      (51) L.345: this statement surprised me, but is difficult to verify because I could not locate a list of the included studies. However, to my best knowledge, most studies reporting brood size manipulation effects on parental survival had this as their main focus, in contrast to your statement.

      Our data and code can be accessed with the following link: https://doi.org/10.5061/dryad.q83bk3jnk. We did supply this information when we submitted our manuscript and again during the review process but we believe this was not passed onto the reviewers by the journal, although supplied by us on several occasions. We regret that the reviewer was impeded by this unfortunate communication failure, but we did our best to make the data available to the reviewers during the initial review process.

      (52) L.361-362: this seems a realistic approach from an evolutionary perspective, but we know from the jackdaw study by Boonekamp that the survival effect of brood size manipulation in a single year is very different from the survival effect of manipulating as in your model, i.e. every year of an individual's life the same manipulation. For very short-lived species this possibly does not make much difference, but for somewhat longer-lived species this could perhaps strongly affect your results. This should be discussed, and perhaps also explored in your simulations?

      Note that the Boonekamp study does not separate whether the survival effects are additive or

      multiplicative. As such, we do not know whether the survival effects for a single year manipulation are just small and hard to detect, or whether the survival effects are multiplicative. Our simulations assumed that the brood enlargement occurred every year throughout their lives. We have added some text to the discussion on the point you raise.

      (53) L.360: what is "lifetime reproductive fitness"? Is this different from just "fitness"?

      We have changed “lifetime reproductive fitness” to “lifetime reproductive output”.

      (54) L.363: when you are interested in optimal clutch size, why not also explore effects of reducing clutch size?

      As we find that a reduction in clutch size leads to a reduction in survival (for experimental studies), we already know that these individuals would have a reduced fitness return compared to reproducing at their normal level, and so we would not learn anything from adding this into our simulations. The interest in using clutch size enlargements is to find out why an individual does not produce more offspring than it does, and the answer is that it would not have a fitness benefit (unless its clutch size and survival rate combination is out of the bounds of that observable in the wild).

      (55) Fig.1 - using 'parental effort' in the y-axis label is misleading, suggest to replace with e.g. "clutch or brood size". Using "clutch size" in the title is another issue, as the experimental studies typically changed the number of young rather than the number of eggs.

      We have updated the figure axes to say “clutch size” rather than “parental effort”. Please see response to comment 35 where we explain our use of the term “clutch size” throughout this manuscript.

      (56) L.93 - 108: I appreciate the analysis in Table 1, in particular the fact that you present different ways of expressing the manipulation. However, in addition, I would like to see the results of an analysis treating the manipulations as factor, i.e. without considering the scale of the manipulation. This serves two purposes. Firstly, I believe it is in the interest of the field that you include a detailed comparison with the results of Santos & Nakagawa's analysis of what I expect to be largely the same data (manipulation studies only - for this purpose I would also like to see a comparison of effect size between the sexes). Secondly, there are (at least) two levels of meta-analysis, namely quantifying an overall effect size, and testing variables that potentially explain variation in effect size. You are here sort of combining the two levels of analysis, but including the first level also would give much more insight in the data set.

      Our main intention here was to improve on how the same hypothesis was approached by Santos & Nakagawa. We did this by improving our analysis (on a by “egg” basis) and by adding additional studies (i.e. more data). In this process mistakes are corrected (as we re-extracted all data, and did not copy anything across from their dataset – which was used simply to ensure we found the same papers); more recent data were also added, including studies missed by Santos & Nakagawa. This means that the comparison with Santos & Nakagawa becomes somewhat irrelevant, apart from maybe technical reasons, i.e. pointing out mistakes or limitations in certain approaches. We would not be able to pinpoint these problems clearly without considering the whole dataset, yet Santos & Nakagawa only had a small subset of the data that were available to us. In short, meta-analysis is an iterative process and similar questions are inevitably analysed multiple times and updated. This follows basic meta-analytic concepts and Cochrane principles. Except where there is a huge flaw in a prior dataset or approach (like we sometimes found and highlighted in our own work, e.g. Simons, Koch, Verhulst 2013, Aging Cell), in itself a comparison of the kind the reviewer suggests distracts from the biology. With the dataset being made available others can make these comparisons, if required. On the sex difference, we provide a comparison of effect sizes separated between both sexes and mixed sex in Table S2 and Figure S1.

      (57) L.93 - 108: a thing that does not become clear from this section is whether experimentally reducing brood size affects parental survival similarly (in absolute terms) as enlarging brood size. Whether these effects are symmetric is biologically important, for example because of its effect on clutch size optimization. In the text you are specific about the effects of increasing brood size, but the effect you find could in theory be due entirely to brood size reduction.

      We have added detail to make it clear that a brood reduction is simply the opposite trend. We use linear relationships because they serve a good approximation of the trend and provide a more rigorous test for an underlying relationship than would fitting nonlinear models. For many datasets there is not a range of chicks added for which a non-linear relationship could be estimated. The question also remains of what the shape of this non-linear relationship should be and is hard to determine a priori.

      We have added some discussion on this to our manuscript (L278-282), in response to an earlier comment.

      (58) L.103-107: this is perhaps better deferred to the discussion, because other potential explanations should also be considered. For example, there have been studies suggesting that small birds were provisioning their brood full time already, and hence had no scope to increase provisioning effort when brood size was experimentally increased.

      We agree this is a discussion point but we believe it also provides an important context for why we ran our simulations, and so we believe this is best kept brief but in place. We agree the example you give is relevant but believe this argument is already contained in this section. See line 121-123 “...suggesting that costs to survival were only observed when a species was pushed beyond its natural limits”.

      (59) L.103-107: this discussion sort of assumes that the results in Table 1 differ between the different ways that the clutch/brood size variation is expressed. Is there any statistical support for this assumption?

      We are unsure of what the reviewer means here exactly. Note that in each of the clutch size transformations, experimental and observational effect sizes are significantly opposite. For the proportional clutch size transformation, experimental and observation studies are both separately significantly different from 0.

      (60) L.104: at this point, I would like to have better insight into the data set. Specifically, a scatter plot showing the manipulation magnitude (raw) plotted against control brood size would be useful.

      Our data and code can be accessed with the following link: https://doi.org/10.5061/dryad.q83bk3jnk. We did supply this information when we submitted our manuscript and again during the review process but we believe this was not passed onto the reviewers by the journal.

      Thank you for this suggestion: this is a useful suggestion also to illustrate how manipulations are relatively stronger for species with smaller clutches, in line with our interpretation of the result presented in Figure 2. We have added Figure S1 which shows the strength of manipulation compared to the species average.

      (61) L. 107: this seems a bold statement - surely you can test directly whether effect size becomes disproportionally stronger when manipulations are outside the natural range, for example by including this characterization as a factor in the models in Table 1.

      It is hard to define exactly what the natural range is here, so it is not easy to factorise objectively, which is why we chose not to do this. However, it is clear that for species with small clutches the manipulation itself is often outside the natural range. Thank you for your suggestion to include a figure for this as it is clear manipulations are stronger in species with smaller clutches. We attribute this to species being forced outside their natural range. We consider our wording makes it clear that this is our interpretation of our findings and we therefore do not think this is a bold statement, especially as it fits with how we interpret our later simulations.

      (62) Fig.3, legend: the term 'node support' does not mean much to me, please explain.

      Node support is a value given in phylogenetic trees to dictate the confidence of a branch. In this case, values are given as a percentage and so can translate to how many times out of 100 the estimate of the phylogeny gives the same branching. Our values are low, as we have relatively few species in our meta-analysis.

      (63) Fig.3: it would be informative when you indicate in this figure whether the species contributed to the experimental or the observational data set or both.

      We have added into Fig 3 whether the species was observational, experimental or both.

      (64) L.139: the p-value refers to the interaction between species clutch size and treatment (observational vs. experimental), but it appears that no evidence is presented for the correlation being significant in either observational or experimental studies.

      We agree that our reporting of the effect size could be misinterpreted and have added detail here. The statistic provided describes the slopes are significantly different between observational and experimental, implying there are differences between the slopes of small and large clutch-laying species.

      (65) L.140: I am wondering to what extent these correlations, which are potentially interesting, are driven by the fact that species average clutch size was also used when expressing the manipulation effect. In other words, to what extent is the estimate on the Y-axis independent from the clutch size on the X-axis? Showing that the result is the same when using survival effect sizes per manipulation category would considerably improve confidence in this finding.

      We are unsure what the reviewer means by “per manipulation category”. Please also note that we have used a logistic regression to calculate our effect sizes of survival, given a unit increase in reproductive effort. So, for example, if a population contained birds that lay 2,3 or 4 eggs, provided that the number of birds which survived and died in each category did not change, if we changed the number of eggs raised to 10,11 or 12, respectively, then our effect size would be the same. In this way, our effect sizes are independent of the species’ average clutch size.

      (66) L.145: when I remember correctly, Santos & Nakagawa considered brood size reduction and enlargement separately. Can this explain the contrasting result? Please discuss.

      You are correct, in that Santos & Nakagawa compared reductions and enlargements to controls separately. However, we found some mistakes in the data extracted by Santos & Nakagawa that we believe explain the differences in our results for sex-specific effect sizes. We do not feel that highlighting these mistakes in the main text is fair, useful or scientifically relevant, as our approach is to improve the test of the hypothesis.

      (67) L.158-159: looking at table S2 it seems to me you have a whole range of estimates. In any case, there is something to be said for taking the estimates for females because it is my impression (and experience) that clutch size variation in most species is a sex-linked trait, in that clutch size tends to be repeatable among females but not among males.

      We agree that, in many cases, the female is the one that ultimately decides on the number of chicks produced. We did also consider using female effect sizes only, however, we decided against this for the following reasons: (1) many of the species used in our meta-analysis exhibit biparental care, as is the case for many seabirds, and so using females only would bias our results towards species with lower male investment; in our case this would bias the results towards passerine species. (2) it has also been shown that, as females in some species are operating at their maximum of parental care investment, it is the males who are able to adjust their workload to care for extra offspring. (3) we are ultimately looking at how many offspring the breeding adults should produce, given the effort it costs to raise them, and so even if the female chooses a clutch size completely independently of the male, it is still the effort of both parents combined that determines whether the parents gain an overall fitness benefit from laying extra eggs. (4) some studies did not clearly specify male or female parental survival and we would not want to reduce our dataset further.

      (68) L.158-168: please explain how you incorporated brood size effects on the fitness prospects of offspring, given that it is a very robust finding of brood size manipulation studies that this affects offspring growth and survival.

      We would argue this is near-on impossible to incorporate into our simulations. It is unrealistic to suggest that incorporating offspring growth into our simulations would add insight, as a change in offspring number rarely affects all offspring in the nest equally and there can even be quite stark differences; for example, this will be most evident in species that produce sacrificial offspring. This effect will be further confounded by catch-up growth, for example, and so it is likely that increased sibling competition from added chicks alters offspring growth trajectories, rather than absolute growth as the reviewer suggests. There are mixed results in the literature on the effect of altering clutch size on offspring survival, with an increased clutch size through manipulation often increasing the number of recruits from a nest. It would be interesting, however, to explore this further using estimates from the literature, but this is beyond our current scope, and would in our initial intuition not be very accurate. It would be interesting to explore how big the effect on offspring should be to constrain effect size strongly. Such work would be more theoretical. The point of our simple fitness projections here is to aid interpretation of the quantitative effect size we estimated.

      (69) L.163: while I can understand that you select the estimate of -0.05 for computational reasons, it has enormous confidence intervals that also include zero. This seems problematic to me. However, in the simulations, you also examined the results of selecting -0.15, which is close to the lower end of the 95% C.I., which seems worth mentioning here already.

      Thank you for this suggestion. Yes, indeed, our range was chosen based on the CI, and we have now made this explicit in the manuscript.

      (70) L.210: defined in this way, in my world this is not what is generally taken to be a selection differential. Is what you show not simply scaled lifetime reproductive success?

      As far as we are aware, a selection differential is the relative change between a given group and the population mean, which is what we have done here. We appreciate this is a slightly unusual context in which to place this, but it is more logical to consider the individuals who produce more offspring as carrying a potential mutation for higher productivity. However, we believe that “selection differential” is the best terminology for the statistic we present. We also detail in our methodology how we calculate this. We have adjusted this sentence to be more explicit about what we mean by selection differential.

      (71) L.177-180: is this not so because these parameter values are closest to the data you based your estimates on, which yielded a low estimate and hence you see that here also?

      We are unsure of what exactly the reviewer means here. The effect sizes for our exemplar species were predicted from each combination of clutch size and survival rate. Note that we used a range of effect sizes, higher than that estimated in our meta-analysis, to explore a large parameter space and that these same conclusions still hold.

      (72) L.191-194: these statements are problematic, because based on the assumption that an increase in brood size does not impact the fitness prospects of the offspring, and we know this assumption to be false.

      Though we appreciate that some cost is often absorbed by the offspring themselves, we are unaware of any evidence that these costs are substantial and large enough to drive within-species variation in reproductive effort, though for some specific species this may be the case. However, in terms of explaining a generalisable, across-species trend, the fitness costs incurred by a reduction in offspring quality are unlikely to be significantly larger than the survival costs to reproduce. We also find it highly unlikely the cost to fitness incurred by a reduction in offspring quality is large enough to counter-balance the effect of parental quality that we find in our observational studies. We do also discuss other costs in our discussion.

      (73) L.205: here and in other places it would be useful to be more explicit on whether in your discussion you are referring to observational or experimental variation.

      We have added this detail to our manuscript. Do note that many of our conclusions are drawn by the combination of results of experimental and observational studies. We believe the addition of Figure 5 makes this more clear to the reader.

      (74) L.225: this may be true (at least, when we overlook the misuse of the word 'quality' here), but I would expect some nuance here to reflect that there is no surprise at all in this result as this pattern is generally recognized in the literature and has been the (empirical) basis for the often-repeated explanation of why experiments are required to demonstrate trade-offs. On a more quantitative level, it is worth mentioning the paper of Vedder & Bouwhuis (2017, Oikos) that essentially shows the same thing, i.e. a positive association between reproductive output and parental survival.

      We have added some discussion on this point, including adding the citation mentioned. However, we would like to highlight that our results demonstrate that brood manipulations are not necessarily a good test of trade-offs, as they fail to recognise that individuals differ in their underlying quality. Though we agree that this result should not necessarily be a surprising one, we have also not found it to be the case that differences in individual quality are accepted as the reason that intra-specific clutch size is maintained – in fact, we find that it is most commonly argued that when costs of reproduction are not identifiedit is concluded that the costs must be elsewhere – yet we cannot find conclusive evidence that the costs of reproduction (wherever they lie) are driving intra-specific variation in reproductive effort. Furthermore, some studies in our dataset have reported negative correlations between reproductive effort and survival (see observational studies, Figure 1).

      (75) L.225-226: perhaps present this definition when you first use the term.

      We have added more detail to where we first use and define this term to improve clarity (L57-58).

      (76) L.227-228, "currently unknown": this statement surprised me, given that there is a plethora of studies showing within-population variation in clutch size to depend on environmental conditions, in particular the rate at which food can be gathered.

      We mean to question that if an individual is “high quality”, why is it not selected for? We have rephrased, to improve clarity.

      (77) L.231: this seems no more than a special case of the environmental effect you mention above.

      We think this is a relevant special case, as it constitutes within-individual variation in reproduction that is mistaken for between-individual variation. This is a common problem in our field, that we feel needs adressing. We only have between-individual variation here in our study on quality, and by highlighting this we show that there might not be any variation between individuals, but this could come about fully (doubtful) or partly (perhaps likely) due to terminal effects.

      (78) L235-236: but apparently depending on how experimental and natural variation was expressed? Please specify here.

      We are not sure what results the reviewer is referring to here, as we found the same effect (smaller clutch laying species are more severely affected by a change in clutch size) for both clutch size expressed as raw clutch size and standardised clutch size.

      (79) L.237: the concept of 'limits' is not very productive here, and it conflicts with the optimality approach you apply elsewhere. What you are saying here can also be interpreted as there being a non-linear relationship between brood size manipulation and parental survival, but you do not actually test for that. A way to do this would be to treat brood size reduction and enlargement separately. Trade-off curves are not generally expected to be linear, so this would also make more sense biologically than your current approach.

      We have replaced “limits” with “optima”. We believe our current approach of treating clutch size as a continuous variable, regardless of manipulation direction, is the best approach, as it allows us to directly compare with observational studies and between species that use different manipulations (now nicely illustrated by the reviewer’s suggested Figure S1). Also note that transforming clutch size to a proportion of the mean allows us to account for the severity in change in clutch size. We also do not believe that treating reductions and enlargements separately accounts for non-linearity, as either we are separating this into two linear relationships (one for enlargements and one for reductions) or we compare all enlargements/reductions to the control, as in Santos & Nakagawa 2012, which does not take into account the severity of the increase, which we would argue is worse for accounting for non-linearity. Furthermore, in the cases where the manipulation involved one offspring only, we also cannot account for non-linearity.

      (80) L.239: assuming birds are on average able to optimize their clutch size, one could argue that any manipulation, large or small, on average forces birds to raise a number of offspring that deviates from their natural optimum. At this point, it would be interesting to discuss in some detail studies with manipulation designs that included different levels of brood size reduction/enlargement.

      We agree with the reviewer that any manipulation is changing an individual’sclutch size away from its own individual optima, which we have argued also means brood manipulations are not necessarily a good test of whether a trade-off occurs in the wild (naturally), as there could be interactions with quality – we have now edited to explicitly state this (L299-300).

      (81) L.242-244: when you choose to maintain this statement, please add something along the lines of "assuming there is no trade-off between number and quality of offspring".

      As explained above, though we agree that the offspring may incur some of the cost themselves, we are not aware of any evidence suggesting this trade-off is also large enough to drive intra-specific variation in clutch size across species. Furthermore, in the context here, the trade-off between number and quality of offspring would not change our conclusion – that the fitness benefit of raising more offspring is offset by the cost on survival. We have added detail on the costs incurred by offspring earlier in our discussion (L309-315). The addition of Figure 5 should help interpret these data.

      (82) L.253: instead of reference 30 the paper by Tinbergen et al in Behaviour (1990) seems more appropriate.

      We believe our current citation is relevant here but we have also added the Tinbergen et al (1990) citation.

      (83) L.253-254: such trade-offs may perfectly explain variation in reproductive effort within species if we were able to estimate cost-benefit relations for individuals. In fact, reference 29 goes some way to achieve this, by explaining seasonal variation in reproductive effort.

      We are unaware of any quantitative evidence that any combination of trade-offs explains intra-specific variation in reproductive effort, especially as a general across-species trend.

      (84) L.255: how does one demonstrate "between species life-history trade-offs"? The 'trade-off' between reproductive rate and survival we observe between species is not necessarily causal, and hence may not really be a trade-off but due to other factors - demonstrating causality requires some form of experimental manipulation.

      Between-species trade-offs are well established in the field, stemming from GC Williams’ seminal paper in 1966, and for example in r/K selection theory. It is possible to move from these correlations to testing for causation, and this is happening currently by introducing transgenes (genes from other species) that promote longevity into shorter-lived species (e.g., naked-mole rat genes into mice). As yet it is unclear what the effects on reproduction are.

      (85) L.256: it is quite a big claim that this is a novel suggestion. In fact, it is a general finding in evolutionary theory that fitness landscapes tend to be rather flat at equilibrium.

      It is important to note here that we simulate the effect size found, and hence this is the novel suggestion, that because the resulting fitness landscape is relatively flat there is no directional selection observed. We did not intend to suggest our interpretation of flat fitness landscapes is novel. We have changed the phrasing of this sentence to avoid misinterpretation.

      (86) L.259: why bring up physiological 'costs' here, given that you focus on fitness costs? Do you perhaps mean fitness costs instead of physiological costs? Furthermore, here and in the remainder of this paragraph it would be useful to be more specific on whether you are considering natural or experimental variation.

      The cost of survival is a physiological cost incurred by the reduction of self-maintenance as a result of lower resource allocation. This is one arm of fitness; we feel it would be confusing here to talk about costs to fitness, as we do not assess costs to future reproduction (which formed the large part of the critique offered by the reviewer). We would like to highlight that the aim of this manuscript was to separate costs of reproduction from the effects of quality, and this is why we have observational and experimental studies in one analysis, rather than separately. Our conclusion that we have found no evidence that the survival cost to reproduce drives within-species variation in clutch size comes both from the positive correlation found in the observational studies and our negligible fitness return estimates in our simulations. We therefore, do not believe it is helpful to separate observational and experimental conclusions throughout our manuscript, as the point is that they are inherently linked. We hope that with the addition of Figure 5 that this is more clear.

      (87) L.262: The finding that naturally more productive individuals tend to also survive better one could say is by definition explained by variation in 'quality', how else would you define quality?

      We agree, and hence we believe quality is a good term to describe individuals who perform highly in two different traits. Note that we also say the lack of evidence that trade-offs drive intra-specific variation in clutch size also potentially suggests an alternative theory, including intra-specific variation driven by differences in individual quality.

      Supplementary information

      (88) Table S1: please provide details on how the treatment was coded - this information is needed to derive the estimates of the clutch size effect for the treatments separately.

      We have added this detail.

      (89) Table S2: please report the number of effect sizes included in each of these models.

      We have added this detail.

      (90) Table S4: references are not given. Mentioning species here would be useful. For example, Ashcroft (1979) studied puffins, which lay a single egg, making me wonder what is meant when mentioning "No clutch or brood size given" as the reason for exclusion. A few more words to explain why specific studies were excluded would be useful. For example, what does "Clutch size groups too large" mean? It surprises me that studies are excluded because "No standard deviation reported for survival" - as the exact distribution is known when sample size and proportion of survivors is known.

      We have updated this table for more clarity.

      (91) Fig.S1: please plot different panels with the same scale (separately for observational and experimental studies). You could add the individual data points to these plots - or at least indicate the sample size for the different categories (female, male, mixed).

      We have scaled all panels to have the same y axis and added sample sizes to the figure legend.

      (92) Fig.S3: please provide separate plots for experimental and observational studies, as it seems entirely plausible that the risk of publication bias is larger for observational studies - in particular those that did not also include a brood size manipulation. At the same time, one can wonder what a potential publication bias among observational studies would represent, given that apparently you did not attempt to collect all studies that reported the relevant information.

      We have coloured the points for experimental and observational studies. Note that a study is an independent effect size and, therefore, does not indicate whether multiple data (i.e., both experimental and observational studies) came from the same paper. As we detail in the paper and above in our reviewer responses, we searched for observational studies from species used in the experimental studies to allow direct comparison between observational and experimental datasets.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I strongly recommend improving the theoretical component of the analysis by providing a solid theoretical framework before, from it, drawing conclusions.

      This, at a minimum, requires a statistical model and most importantly a mechanistic model describing the assumed relationships.

      We thank the reviewer for highlighting that our aims and methodology are unclear in places. We have added detail to our model and simulation descriptions and have improved the description of our rationale. We also feel the failure of the journal to provide code and data to the reviewers has not helped their appreciation of our methodology and use of data.

      Because the field uses the same wording for different concepts and different wording for the same concept, a glossary is also necessary.

      We thank the reviewer for raising this issue. During the revision of this manuscript, we have simplified our terminology or given a definition, and we believe this is sufficient for readers to understand our terminology.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      • The files containing information of data extracted from each study were not available so it has not been possible to check how any of the points raised above apply to the species included in the study. The ms should include this file on the Supp. Info as is standard good practice for a comparative analysis.

      We supplied a link to our full dataset and the code we used in Dryad with our submitted manuscript. We were also asked to supply our data during the review process and we again supplied a link to our dataset and code, along with a folder containing the data and code itself. We received confirmation that the reviewers had been given our data and code. We support open science and it was our intention that our dataset should be fully available to reviewers and readers. We believe the data is too large to include as a table in the main text and is not essential in understanding the paper. Our data and code are at https://doi.org/10.5061/dryad.q83bk3jnk.

      • For clarity, refer to 'the effect size of clutch size on survival" rather than simply "effect size". Figures 1 and 2 require cross-referencing with the main text to understand the y-axis.

      We have added detail to the figure legend to increase the interpretability of the figures.

      • Silhouettes in Figure 3 (or photos) would help readers without ornithological expertise to understand the taxonomic range of the species included in the analyses.

      We have added silhouettes into Figure 3.

      • Throughout the discussion: superscripts shouldn't be treated as words in a sentence so please add authors' names where appropriate.

      We have added author names and dates where required.

    1. Author Response:

      We sincerely value the insightful and constructive feedback provided by the reviewers, which has been instrumental in identifying areas of our manuscript that required further clarification or amendment. Below are our responses detailing each comment.

      Reviewer 1:

      (1) One major issue arises in Figure 4, the recording of VLPO Ca2+ activity. In Lines 211-215, they stated that they injected AAV2/9-DBH-GCaMP6m into the VLPO, while activating LC NE neurons. As they claimed in line 157, DBH is a specific promoter for NE neurons. This implies an attempt to label NE neurons in the VLPO, which is problematic because NE neurons are not present in the VLPO. This raises concerns about their viral infection strategy since Ca activity was observed in their photometry recording. This means that DBH promoter could randomly label some non-NE neurons. Is DBH promoter widely used? The authors should list references. Additionally, they should quantify the labeling efficiency of both DBH and TH-cre throughout the paper.

      (1) In Figure 5, we found that the VLPO received the noradrenergic projection from LC, indicating the recorded Ca2+ activity may come from the axon fibers corresponding to the projection. Similarly, Gunaydin et al. (2014) demonstrated that fiber photometry can be used to selectively record from neuronal projection.

      (2) Located in the inner membrane of noradrenergic and adrenergic neurons, DBH (Dopamine-beta-hydroxylase) is an enzyme that catalyzes the conversion of dopamine to norepinephrine, and therefore plays an important role in noradrenergic neurotransmission. DBH is a marker of noradrenergic neurons. Zhou et al. (2020) clarified the probe specifically labeled noradrenergic neurons by immunolabeling for DBH. Recently, DBH promoter have been used in several studies (e.g., Han et al., 2024; Lian et al., 2023). The DBH-Cre mice are widely used to specifically labeled noradrenergic neurons (e.g., Li et al., 2023; Breton-Provencher et al., 2022; Liu et al., 2024). As reviewer said, it is difficult to distinguish the role of NE or DA neurons when using the TH promoter in VLPO. Therefore, we used DBH promoter with more specific labeling. LC is the main noradrenergic nucleus of the central nervous system. In our study, we injected rAAV-DBH-GCaMP6m-WPRE (Figure 2 and 8) and rAAV-DBH-EGFP-S'miR-30a-shRNA GABAA receptor)-3’-miR30a-WPRES (Figure 9) into the LC. The results showed that DBH promoter could specifically label noradrenergic neurons in the LC, while non-specific markers outside the LC were almost absent. As suggested, we will quantify the labeling efficiency of both DBH and TH-cre throughout the revised manuscript. This updated figure will provide a more rigorous analysis.

      (2) A similar issue arises with chemogenetic activation in Fig. 5 L-R, the authors used TH-cre and DIO-Gq virus to label VLPO neurons. Were they labelling VLPO NE or DA neurons for recording? The authors have to clarify this.

      As previously addressed in response to Comment #1, we acknowledge that it is difficult to distinguish the role of NE or DA neurons when using the TH promoter in VLPO. In the revised manuscript, we are considering conducting more restricted AAV injections into the VLPO to verify terminal expressions in the LC.

      (3) Another related question pertains to the specificity of LC NE downstream neurons in the VLPO. For example, do they preferentially modulate GABAergic or glutamatergic neurons?

      As suggested, we will supplement the multi-label ISH of LC NE downstream neurons in the VLPO to reveal the types of neurons they modulate.  

      (4) In Figure 1A-D, in the measurement of the dosage-dependent effect of Mida in LORR, were they only performed one batch of testing? If more than one batch of mice were used, error bar should be presented in 1B. Also, the rationale of testing TH expression levels after Mid is not clear. Is TH expression level change related to NE activation specifically? If so, they should cite references.

      (1) As recommended, we will supplement error bar in the revised manuscript.

      (2) As reviewer suggested, the use of TH as a marker of NE activation is controversial, so in the revised manuscript, we will directly determine central norepinephrine content.

      (5) Regarding the photometry recording of LC NE neurons during the entire process of midazolam injection in Fig. 2 and Fig. 4, it is unclear what time=0 stands for. If I understand correctly, the authors were comparing spontaneous activity during the four phases. Additionally, they only show traces lasting for 20s in Fig. 2F and Fig. 4L. How did the authors select data for analysis, and what criteria were used? The authors should also quantify the average Ca2+ activity and Ca2+ transient frequency during each stage instead of only quantifying Ca2+ peaks. In line 919, the legend for Figure 2D, they stated that it is the signal at the BLA; were they also recorded from the BLA?

      (1) In this study, we used optical fiber calcium signal recording, which is a fluorescence imaging based on changes in calcium. The fluorescence signal is usually divided into different segments according to the behavior, and the corresponding segments are orderly according to the specific behavior event as the time=0. The mean calcium fluorescence signal in the time window 1.5s or 1s before the event behavior is taken as the baseline fluorescence intensity (F0), and the difference between the fluorescence intensity of the occurrence of the behavior and the baseline fluorescence intensity is divided by the difference between the baseline fluorescence intensity and the offset value. That is, the value ΔF/F0 represents the change of calcium fluorescence intensity when the event occurs. The results of the analysis are commonly represented by two kinds of graphs, namely heat map and event-related peri-event plot (e.g., Cheng et al., 2022; Gan-Or et al., 2023; Wei et al., 2018). In Fig. 2, the time points for awake, midazolam injection, LORR and RORR in mice were respectively selected as time=0, while in Fig. 4, RORR in mice was selected as time=0. The selected traces lasting for 20s was based on the length of a complete Ca2+ signal. We will explain the Ca2+ recording experiment more specifically in the revised manuscript.

      (2) To the BLA, we sincerely apologize for our carelessness, the signal we recorded were from the LC rather than the BLA. We will carefully check and correct similar problems in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer 2:

      In figure legends, abbreviations in figure should be supplemented as much as possible. For example, "LORR" in Figure 1.

      As suggested, we will supplement abbreviations in figure as much as possible in the revised manuscript.

      References

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    1. Author response:

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this study, Kroll et al. conduct an in-depth behavioral analysis of F0 knockouts of 4 genes associated with late-onset Alzheimer's Disease (AD), together with 3 genes associated with early- onset AD. Kroll and colleagues developed a web application (ZOLTAR) to compare sleep-associated traits between genetic mutants with those obtained from a panel of small molecules to promote the identification of affected pathways and potential therapeutic interventions. The authors make a set of potentially important findings vis-à-vis the relationship between AD-associated genes and sleep. First, they find that loss-of-function in late-onset AD genes universally results in nighttime sleep loss, consistent with the well-supported hypothesis that sleep disruption contributes to Alzheimer's-related pathologies. psen-1, an early-onset associated AD gene, which the authors find is principally responsible for the generation of AB40 and AB42 in zebrafish, also shows a slight increase in activity at night and slight decreases in nighttime sleep. Conversely, psen-2 mutations increase daytime sleep, while appa/appb mutations have no impact on sleep. Finally, using ZOLTAR, the authors identify serotonin receptor activity as potentially disrupted in sorl1 mutants, while betamethasone is identified as a potential therapeutic to promote reversal of psen2 knockout-associated phenotypes.

      This is a highly innovative and thorough study, yet a handful of key questions remain. First, are nighttime sleep loss phenotypes observed in all knockouts for late-onset AD genes in the larval zebrafish a valid proxy for AD risk?

      We cannot say, but it is an interesting question. We selected the four late-onset Alzheimer’s risk genes (APOE, CD2AP, CLU, SORL1) based on human genetics data and brain expression in zebrafish larvae, not based on their likelihood to modify sleep behaviour, which we could have tried by searching for overlaps with GWAS of sleep phenotypes, for example. Consequently, we find it remarkable that all four of these genes caused a night-time sleep phenotype when mutated. We also find it reassuring that knockout of appa/appb and psen2 did not cause a night-time sleep phenotype, which largely excludes the possibility that the phenotype is a technical artefact (e.g. caused by the F0 knockout method) or a property of every gene expressed in the larval brain.

      Having said that, it could still be a coincidence, rather than a special property of genes associated with late-onset AD. In addition to testing additional late-onset Alzheimer’s risk genes, the ideal way to answer this question would be to test in parallel a random set of genes expressed in the brain at this stage of development. From this random set, one could estimate the proportion of genes that cause a night-time sleep phenotype when mutated. One could then use that information to test whether late-onset Alzheimer’s risk genes are indeed enriched for genes that cause a night-time sleep phenotype when mutated.

      For those mutants that cause nighttime sleep disturbances, do these phenotypes share a common underlying pathway? e.g. Do 5-HT reuptake inhibitors promote sleep across all 4 late-onset genes in addition to psen1? Can 5-HT reuptake inhibitors reverse other AD-related pathologies in zebrafish? Can compounds be identified that have a common behavioral fingerprint across all or multiple AD risk genes? Do these modify sleep phenotypes?

      To attempt to answer these questions, we used ZOLTAR to generate predictions for all the knockout behavioural fingerprints presented in the study, in the same way as for sorl1 in Fig. 5 and Fig. 5–suppl. 1. Here are the indications, targets, and KEGG pathways which are shared by the largest number of knockouts:

      – Four indications are shared by 4/7 knockouts: “mydriasis” (dilated pupils, significant for psen1, apoea/apoeb, cd2ap, clu); “fragile X syndrome” (psen1, apoea/apoeb, cd2ap, sorl1), “insomnia” (psen2, apoea/apoeb, cd2ap, sorl1); “malignant essential hypertension” (appa/appb, psen1, apoea/apoeb, cd2ap).

      – Two targets are shared by 5/7 knockouts: “glycogen synthase kinase−3 alpha” (psen1, apoeab, cd2ap, clu, sorl1) and “neuronal acetylcholine receptor beta−2” (appa/appb, psen1, apoeab, cd2ap, clu).

      – Two KEGG pathways are shared by 5/7 knockouts: “cholinergic synapse” (psen1, apoea/apoeb, cd2ap, clu, sorl1) and “nitrogen metabolism” (appa/appb, psen1, psen2, cd2ap, clu).

      As reminder, we hypothesised that loss of Sorl1 affected serotonin signalling based on the following annotations being significant: indication “depression”, target “serotonin transporter”, and KEGG pathway “serotonergic synapse”. All three are also significant for psen2 knockouts, but none others. ZOLTAR therefore does not predict serotonin signalling to be a major theme common to all mutants with a night-time sleep loss phenotype.

      While perhaps not surprising, we find reassuring that insomnia appears in the indications shared by the largest number of knockouts. apoea/apoeb, cd2ap, sorl1 also happen to be the knockouts with the largest loss in night-time sleep.

      Particularly interesting is cholinergic signalling appearing in the most common targets and KEGG pathways. Acetylcholine signalling is a major theme in research on Alzheimer’s disease. For example, the first four drugs ever approved by the FDA to treat Alzheimer’s disease were acetylcholinesterase inhibitors, which increase acetylcholine signalling by preventing its breakdown by acetylcholinesterase. These drugs are generally considered only to treat symptoms and not modify disease course, but this view has been called into question (Munoz-Torrero, 2008; Relkin, 2007). If, as ZOLTAR suggests, mutations in several Alzheimer’s risk genes affect cholinergic signalling early in development, this would point to a potential causal role of cholinergic disruption in Alzheimer’s disease.

      We see that literature also exists on the involvement of glycogen synthase kinase-3 in AD (Lauretti et al., 2020). We plan to explore further these predictions in a future study.

      Finally, the web- based platform presented could be expanded to facilitate comparison of other behavioral phenotypes, including stimulus-evoked behaviors.

      Yes, absolutely. The behavioural dataset we used (Rihel et al., 2010) did not measure other stimuli than day/night light transitions, but the “SauronX” platform and dataset (Myers-Turnbull et al., 2022) seems particularly well suited for this. To provide some context, we and collaborators have occasionally used the dataset by Rihel et al. (2010) to generate hypotheses or find candidate drugs that reverse a behavioural phenotype measured in the sleep/wake assay (Ashlin et al., 2018; Hoffman et al., 2016). The present work was the occasion to enable a wider and more intuitive use of this dataset through the ZOLTAR app, which has already proven successful. Future versions of ZOLTAR will seek to incorporate larger drug datasets using more types of measurements.

      Finally, the authors propose but do not test the hypothesis that sorl1 might regulate localization/surface expression of 5-HT2 receptors. This could provide exciting / more convincing mechanistic support for the assertion that serotonin signaling is disrupted upon loss of AD-associated genes.

      5-HT receptor type 4a is another candidate as it was shown to interact with sorting nexin 27, a subunit of retromer (Joubert et al., 2004). We see that antibodies against human 5-HT receptor type 2 and 4a exist; whether they would work in zebrafish remains to be tested, and in our experience, the availability of antibodies suitable for immunohistochemistry in the zebrafish is a serious experimental roadblock.

      Despite these important considerations, this study provides a valuable platform for high-throughput analysis of sleep phenotypes and correlation with small-molecule-induced sleep phenotypes.

      Strengths:

      - Provides a useful platform for comparison of sleep phenotypes across genotypes/drug manipulations.

      - Presents convincing evidence that nighttime sleep is disrupted in mutants for multiple late-onset AD-related genes.

      - Provides potential mechanistic insights for how AD-related genes might impact sleep and identifies a few drugs that modify their identified phenotypes

      Weaknesses:

      - Exploration of potential mechanisms for serotonin disruption in sorl1 mutants is limited.

      - The pipeline developed can only be used to examine sleep-related / spontaneous movement phenotypes and stimulus-evoked behaviors are not examined.

      - Comparisons between mutants/exploration of commonly affected pathways are limited.

      Thank you for these excellent suggestions, please see our answers above.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This work delineates the larval zebrafish behavioral phenotypes caused by the F0 knockout of several important genes that increase the risk for Alzheimer's disease. Using behavioral pharmacology, comparing the behavioral fingerprint of previously assayed molecules to the newly generated knockout data, compounds were discovered that impacted larval movement in ways that suggest interaction with or recovery of disrupted mechanisms.

      Strengths:

      This is a well-written manuscript that uses newly developed analysis methods to present the findings in a clear, high-quality way. The addition of an extensive behavioral analysis pipeline is of value to the field of zebrafish neuroscience and will be particularly helpful for researchers who prefer the R programming language. Even the behavioral profiling of these AD risk genes, regardless of the pharmacology aspect, is an important contribution. The recovery of most behavioral parameters in the psen2 knockout with betamethasone, predicted by comparing fingerprints, is an exciting demonstration of the approach. The hypotheses generated by this work are important stepping stones to future studies uncovering the molecular basis of the proposed gene-drug interactions and discovering novel therapeutics to treat AD or co-occurring conditions such as sleep disturbance.

      Weaknesses:

      - The overarching concept of the work is that comparing behavioral fingerprints can align genes and molecules with similarly disrupted molecular pathways. While the recovery of the psen2 phenotypes by one molecule with the opposite phenotype is interesting, as are previous studies that show similar behaviorally-based recoveries, the underlying assumption that normalizing the larval movement normalizes the mechanism still lacks substantial support. There are many ways that a reduction in movement bouts could be returned to baseline that are unrelated to the root cause of the genetically driven phenotype. An ideal experiment would be to thoroughly characterize a mutant, such as by identifying a missing population of neurons, and use this approach to find a small molecule that rescues both behavior and the cellular phenotype. If the connection to serotonin in the sorl1 was more complete, for example, the overarching idea would be more compelling.

      Thank you for this cogent criticism.

      On the first point, we were careful not to claim that betamethasone normalises the molecular/cellular mechanism that causes the psen2 behavioural phenotype. Having said that, yes, to a certain extent that would be the hope of the approach. As you say, every compound which normalises the behavioural fingerprint will not normalise the underlying mechanism, but the opposite seems true: every compound that normalises the underlying mechanism should also normalise the behavioural fingerprint. We think this logic makes the “behaviour-first” approach innovative and interesting. The logic is to discover compounds that normalise the behavioural phenotype first, only subsequently test whether they also normalise the molecular mechanism, akin to testing first whether a drug resolves the symptoms before testing whether it actually modifies disease course. While in practice testing thousands of drugs in sufficient sample sizes and replicates on a mutant line is challenging, the dataset queried through ZOLTAR provides a potential shortcut by shortlisting in silico compounds that have the opposite effect on behaviour.

      You mention a “reduction in movement bouts” but note here that the number of behavioural parameters tested is key to our argument. To take the two extremes, say the only behavioural parameter we measured in psen2 knockout larvae was time active during the day, then, yes, any stimulant used at the right concentration could probably normalise the phenotype. In this situation, claiming that the stimulant is likely to also normalise the underlying mechanism, or even that it is a genuine “phenotypic rescue”, would not be convincing. Conversely, say we were measuring thousands of behavioural parameters under various stimuli, such as swimming speed, position in the well, bout usage, tail movements, and eye angles, it seems almost impossible for a compound to rescue most parameters without also normalising the underlying mechanism. The present approach is somewhere in-between: ZOLTAR uses six behavioural parameters for prediction (e.g. Fig 6a), but all 17 parameters calculated by FramebyFrame can be used to assess rescue during a subsequent experiment (Fig. 6c). For both, splitting each parameter in day and night increases the resolution of the approach, which partly answers your criticism. For example, betamethasone rescued the day-time hypoactivity without causing night-time hyperactivity, so we are not making the “straw man argument” explained above of using any broad stimulant to rescue the hypoactivity phenotype.

      Furthermore, for diseases where the behavioural defect is the primary concern, such as autism or bipolar disorder, perhaps this behaviour-first approach is all that is needed, and whether or not the compound precisely rescues the underlying mechanism is somewhat secondary. The use of lithium to prevent manic episodes in bipolar disorder is a good example. It was initially tested because mania was thought to be caused by excess uric acid and lithium can dissolve uric acid (Mitchell and Hadzi-Pavlovic, 2000). The theory is now discredited, but lithium continues to be used without a precise understanding of its mode of action. In this example, behavioural rescue alone, with tolerable secondary effects, is sufficient to be beneficial to patients, and whether it modulates the correct causal pathway is secondary.

      On the second point, we agree that testing first ZOLTAR on a mutant for which we have a fairly good understanding of the mechanism causing the behavioural phenotype could have been a productive approach. Note, however, that examples already exist in the literature. First, Hoffman et al. (2016) found that drugs generating behavioural fingerprints that positively correlate with the cntnap2a/cntnap2b double knockout fingerprint are enriched with NMDA and GABA receptor antagonists. In experiments analogous to our citalopram treatment (Fig. 5c,d), cntnap2a/cntnap2b knockout larvae were found to be overly sensitive to the NMDA receptor antagonist MK-801 and the GABAA receptor antagonist pentylenetetrazol (PTZ). Among other drugs tested, zolpidem, a GABAA receptor agonist, caused opposite effects on wild-type and cntnap2a/cntnap2b knockout larvae. Knockout larvae also had fewer GABAergic neurons in the forebrain. Second, Ashlin et al. (2018) found that the fingerprint of pitpnc1a knockout larvae clustered with anti-inflammatory compounds. Flumethasone, an anti-inflammatory corticosteroid, caused a lower increase in activity when added to knockout larvae compared to wild-type larvae. While these studies did not use precisely the same analysis that ZOLTAR runs, they used the same rationale and behavioural dataset to make these predictions (Rihel et al., 2010), which shows that approaches like ZOLTAR can point to causal processes.

      Related to your next point, we may reduce the discussion on sorl1 and serotonin and add some of the present arguments instead, depending on the results from  testing a second SSRI (see next point).

      - The behavioral difference between the sorl1 KO and scrambled at the higher dose of the citalopram is based on a small number of animals. The KO Euclidean distance measure is also more spread out than for the other datasets, and it looks like only five or so fish are driving the group difference. It also appears as though the numbers were also from two injection series. While there is nothing obviously wrong with the data, I would feel more comfortable if such a strong statement of a result from a relatively subtle phenotype were backed up by a higher N or a stable line. It is not impossible that the observed difference is an experimental fluke. If something obvious had emerged through the HCR, that would have also supported the conclusions. As it stands, if no more experiments are done to bolster the claim, the confidence in the strength of the link to serotonin should be reduced (possibly putting the entire section in the supplement and modifying the discussion). The discussion section about serotonin and AD is interesting, but I think that it is excessive without additional evidence.

      We mostly agree with this criticism. One could interpret the larger spread of the data for sorl1 larvae treated with 10 µM citalopram as evidence that the knockout larvae do indeed react differently to the drug at this dose. However, the result indeed does not survive removing the top 5 (p = 0.87) or top 3 (p = 0.18) sorl1 larvae.

      Given that the HCR did not reveal anything striking, we agree with you that too much of our argument relies on this result being robust. As you and reviewer #3 suggest, we plan on repeating this experiment with a different serotonin reuptake inhibitor (SSRI). If the other SSRI also shows a differential effect, this should strengthen the claim that ZOLTAR correctly predicted serotonin signalling as being affected by the loss of Sorl1, even if we did not discover the molecular mechanism.

      - The authors suggest two hypotheses for the behavioral difference between the sorl1 KO and scrambled at the higher dose of the citalopram. While the first is tested, and found to not be supported, the second is not tested at all ("Ruling out the first hypothesis, sorl1 knockouts may react excessively to a given spike in serotonin." and "Second, sorl1 knockouts may be overly sensitive to serotonin itself because post-synaptic neurons have higher levels of serotonin receptors."). Assuming that the finding is robust, there are probably other reasons why the mutants could have a different sensitivity to this molecule. However, if this particular one is going to be mentioned, it is surprising that it was not tested alongside the first hypothesis. This work could proceed without a complete explanation, but additional discussion of the possibilities would be helpful or why the second hypothesis was not tested.

      There are no strong scientific reasons why this hypothesis was not tested. The lead author (F Kroll) moved to a different lab and country so the project was finalised at that time. We do not plan on testing this hypothesis at this stage. However, we will adapt the wording to make it clear this is one possible alternative hypothesis which could be tested in the future, rather than the only alternative.

      - The authors claim that "all four genes produced a fairly consistent phenotype at night". While it is interesting that this result arose in the different lines, the second clutch for some genes did not replicate as well as others. I think the findings are compelling, regardless, but the sometimes missing replicability should be discussed. I wonder if the F0 strategy adds noise to the results and if clean null lines would yield stronger phenotypes. Please discuss this possibility, or others, in regard to the variability in some phenotypes.

      For the first part of this point, please see below our answer to Reviewer #3, point (2) c.

      Regarding the F0 strategy potentially adding variability, it is an interesting question which we tested in a larger dataset of behavioural recordings from F0 and stable knockouts for the same genes (unpublished). In summary, the F0 knockout method does not increase clutch-to-clutch or larva-to-larva variability in the assay. F0 knockout experiments found many more significant parameters and larger effect sizes than stable knockout experiments, but this difference could largely be explained by the larger sample sizes of F0 knockout experiments. In fact, larger sample sizes within individual clutches appears to be a major advantage of the F0 knockout approach over in-cross of heterozygous knockout animals as it increases sensitivity of the assay without causing substantial variability. We plan to report in more details on this analysis in a separate paper as we think it would dilute the focus of the present work.

      - In this work, the knockout of appa/appb is included. While APP is a well-known risk gene, there is no clear justification for making a knockout model. It is well known that the upregulation of app is the driver of Alzheimer's, not downregulation. The authors even indicate an expectation that it could be similar to the other knockouts ("Moreover, the behavioural phenotypes of appa/appb and psen1 knockout larvae had little overlap while they presumably both resulted in the loss of Aβ." and "Comparing with early-onset genes, psen1 knockouts had similar night-time phenotypes, but loss of psen2 or appa/appb had no effect on night-time sleep."). There is no reason to expect similarity between appa/appb and psen1/2. I understand that the app knockouts could unveil interesting early neurodevelopmental roles, but the manuscript needs to be clarified that any findings could be the opposite of expectation in AD.

      On “there is no reason to expect similarity […]”, we disagree. Knockout of appa/appb and knockout psen1 will both result in loss of Aβ (appa/appb encode Aβ and psen1 cleaves Appa/Appb to release Aβ, cf. Fig. 3e). Consequently, a phenotype caused by the loss of Aβ, or possibly other Appa/Appb cleavage products, should logically be found in both appa/appb and psen1 knockouts.

      On “it is well known that the upregulation of APP is the driver of Alzheimer’s, not downregulation”; we of course agree. Among others, the examples of Down syndrome, APP duplication (Sleegers et al., 2006), or mouse models overexpressing human APP show definitely that overexpression of APP is sufficient to cause AD. Having said that, we would not be so quick in dismissing APP knockout as potentially relevant to understanding of Alzheimer’s disease. Loss of soluble Aβ due to aggregation could contribute to pathology (Espay et al., 2023). Without getting too much into this intricate debate, links between levels of Aβ and risk of disease are often counter-intuitive too. For example, out of 138 PSEN1 mutations screened in vitro, 104 reduced total Aβ production and 11 even seemingly abolished the production of both Aβ40 and Aβ42 (Sun et al., 2017). In short, loss of soluble Aβ occurs in both AD and in our appa/appb knockout larvae, but the ideal approach would be to study zebrafish larvae with an in-frame deletion in the Aβ sequence within appa/appb.

      We will adapt the language to address your point. We would not want to imply, for example, that the absence of a night-time sleep phenotype for appa/appb is contradictory to the body of literature showing links between Aβ and sleep, including in zebrafish (Özcan et al., 2020). As you say, our experiment tested loss of App, including Aβ, while the literature typically reports on overexpression of APP, as in APP/PSEN1-overexpressing mice (Jagirdar et al., 2021).

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      In this manuscript by Kroll and colleagues, the authors describe combining behavioral pharmacology with sleep profiling to predict disease and potential treatment pathways at play in AD. AD is used here as a case study, but the approaches detailed can be used for other genetic screens related to normal or pathological states for which sleep/arousal is relevant. The data are for the most part convincing, although generally the phenotypes are relatively small and there are no major new mechanistic insights. Nonetheless, the approaches are certainly of broad interest and the data are comprehensive and detailed.

      A notable weakness is the introduction, which overly generalizes numerous concepts and fails to provide the necessary background to set the stage for the data.

      Major points

      (1) The authors should spend more time explaining what they see as the meaning of the large number of behavioral parameters assayed and specifically what they tell readers about the biology of the animal. Many are hard to understand--e.g. a "slope" parameter.

      We agree that some parameters do not tell something intuitive about the biology of the animal. It would be easy to speculate. For example, the “activity slope” parameter may indicate how quickly the animal becomes tired over the course of the day. On the other hand, fractal dimension describes the “roughness/smoothness” of the larva’s activity trace (Fig. 2–suppl. 1a); but it is not obvious how to translate this into information about the physiology of the animal. We do not see this as an issue though. While some parameters do provide intuitive information about the animal’s behaviour (e.g. sleep duration or sunset startle as a measure of startle response), the benefit of having a large number of behavioural parameters is to compare behavioural fingerprints and assess rescue of the behavioural phenotype by small molecules (Fig. 6c). For this purpose, the more parameters the better. The “MoSeq” approach from Wiltschko et al., 2020 is a good example from literature that inspired our own Fig. 6c. While some of the “behavioural syllables” may be intuitive (e.g. running or grooming), it is probably pointless to try to explain the ‘meaning’ of the “small left turn in place with head motion” syllable (Wiltschko et al., 2020). Nonetheless, this syllable was useful to assess whether a drug specifically treats the behavioural phenotype under study without causing too many side effects. Unfortunately, ZOLTAR has to reduce the FramebyFrame fingerprint (17 parameters) to just six parameters to compare it to the behavioural dataset from Rihel et al., 2010, but here, more parameters would almost certainly translate into better predictions too, regardless of their intuitiveness.

      It is true however that we do not give much information on how some of the less intuitive parameters, such as activity slope or fractal dimension, are calculated or what they describe about the dataset (e.g. roughness/smoothness for fractal dimension). We will improve this in our revised version.

      (2) Because in the end the authors did not screen that many lines, it would increase confidence in the phenotypes to provide more validation of KO specificity. Some suggestions include:

      a. The authors cite a psen1 and psen2 germline mutant lines. Can these be tested in the FramebyFrame R analysis? Do they phenocopy F0 KO larvae?

      We unfortunately do not have those lines. We investigated the availability of importing a psen2 knockout line from abroad, but the process of shipping live animals is becoming more and more cost and time prohibitive. However, we observed the same pigmentation phenotype for psen2 knockouts as reported by Jiang et al., 2018, which is at least a partial confirmation of phenocopying a loss of function stable mutant. 

      b. psen2KO is one of the larger centerpieces of the paper. The authors should present more compelling evidence that animals are truly functionally null. Without this, how do we interpret their phenotypes?

      We disagree that there should be significant doubt about these mutants being truly functionally null,  given the high mutation rate and presence of the expected pigmentation phenotype (Jiang et al., 2018, Fig. 3f and Fig. 3–suppl. 2). The psen2 F0 knockouts were virtually 100% mutated at three exons across the gene (mutation rates were locus 1: 100 ± 0%; locus 2: 99.99 ± 0.06%; locus 3: 99.85 ± 0.24%). Additionally, two of the three mutated exons had particularly high rates of frameshift mutations (locus 1: 97 ± 5%; locus 2: 88 ± 17% frameshift mutation rate). It is virtually impossible that a functional protein is translated given this burden of frameshift mutations. Phenotypically, in addition to the pigmentation defect, double psen1/psen2 F0 knockout larvae had curved tails, the same phenotype as caused by a high dose of the γ-secretase inhibitor DAPT (Yang et al., 2008). These double F0 knockouts were lethal, while knockout of psen1 or psen2 alone did not cause obvious morphological defects. Evidently, most larvae must have been psen2 null mutants in this experiment, otherwise functional Psen2 would have prevented early lethality.

      Translation of zebrafish psen2 can start at downstream start codons if the first exon has a frameshift mutation, generating a seemingly functional Psen2 missing the N-terminus (Jiang et al., 2020). Zebrafish homozygous for this early frameshift mutation had normal pigmentation, showing it is a reliable marker of Psen2 function even when it is mutated. This mechanism is not a concern here as the alternative start codons are still upstream of two of the three mutated exons (the alternative start codons discovered by Jiang et al., 2020 are in exon 2 and 3, but we targeted exon 3, exon 4, and exon 6).

      We understand that the zebrafish community may be cautious about F0 phenotyping compared to stably generated mutants. As mentioned to Reviewer 2, we are planning to assemble a paper that expressly examines F0s vs. stable mutants to allay some of these concerns. We would also suggest that our current manuscript, which combines CRISPR-F0 rapid screening with in silico pharmacological predictions, ultimately represents a first step in characterizing the functions of genes.

      c. Related to the above, for cd2AP and sorl1 KO, some of the effect sizes seem to be driven by one clutch and not the other. In other words, great clutch-to-clutch variability. Should the authors increase the number of clutches assayed?

      Correct, there is great clutch-to-clutch variability in this behavioural assay. This is not specific to our experiments. Even within the same strain, wild-type larvae from different clutches (i.e. non-siblings) behave differently (Joo et al., 2021). This is why it is essential to compare behavioural phenotypes within individual clutches (i.e., from a single pair of parents, one male and one female), as we explain in Methods (section Behavioural video-tracking) and in the documentation of the FramebyFrame package. We often see two different experimental designs in literature: comparing non-sibling wild-type and mutant larvae, or pooling different clutches which include all genotypes (e.g., pooling multiple clutches from heterozygous in-crosses or pooling wild-type clutches before injecting them). The first experimental design causes false positive findings, as the clutch-to-clutch variability we and others (Joo et al., 2021) observe gets interpreted as a behavioural phenotype. The second experimental design should not cause false positives but will decrease the sensitivity of the assay by increasing the spread within genotypes. In both cases, the clutch-to-clutch variability is hidden, either by interpreting it as a phenotype (first case) or by adding it to animal-to-animal variability (second case). Our experimental design is technically more challenging as it requires obtaining large clutches from unique pairs of parents. However, this approach is better as it clearly separates the different sources of variability (clutch-to-clutch or animal-to-animal). As for every experiment, yes, a larger number of replicates would be better, but we do not plan to assay additional clutches at this time. Our work heavily focuses on the sorl1 and psen2 knockout behavioural phenotypes. The key aspects of these phenotypes were effectively tested in four clutches as sorl1 were also tested in the citalopram experiment (Fig. 5), and psen2 was also tested in the small molecule rescue experiment (Fig. 6 and Fig. 6–suppl. 1). In the citalopram experiment, one H2O-treated sorl1 knockout clutch (n = 10) replicates fairly well the baseline recordings in Fig. 4–suppl. 5, the other does not but had especially low sample size (n = 6).

      We also plan to test another SSRI on sorl1 knockouts, so this point will be addressed.

      (3) The authors make the point that most of the AD risk genes are expressed in fish during development. Is there public data to comment on whether the genes of interest are expressed in mature/old fish as well? Just because the genes are expressed early does not at all mean that early- life dysfunction is related to future AD (though this could be the case, of course). Genes with exclusive developmental expression would be strong candidates for such an early-life role, however. I presume the case is made because sleep studies are mainly done in juvenile fish, but I think it is really a pretty minor point and such a strong claim does not even need to be made.

      This is a fair criticism but we do not make this claim, at least not from expression. The reviewer is probably referring to the following quote:

      “[…] most of these were expressed in the brain of 5–6-dpf zebrafish larvae, suggesting they play a role in early brain development or function,”

      which does not mention future risk of Alzheimer’s disease. We do suggest that these genes have a function in development. After all, every gene that plays a role in brain development must be expressed during development, so this wording seems reasonable. As noted, the primary goal was to check that the genes we selected were indeed expressed in zebrafish larvae before performing knockout experiments. Our discussion does raise the hypothesis that mutations in Alzheimer’s risk genes impact brain development and sleep early in life, but this argument primarily relies on our observation that knockout of late-onset Alzheimer’s risk genes causes sleep phenotypes in 7-day old zebrafish larvae and from previous work showing brain structural differences in infants and children at high genetic risk of Alzheimer’s disease (Dean et al., 2014; Quiroz et al., 2015), not solely on gene expression early in life.

      (4) A common quandary with defining sleep behaviorally is how to rectify sleep and activity changes that influence one another. With psen2 KOs, the authors describe reduced activity and increased sleep during the day. But how do we know if the reduced activity drives increased behavioral quiescence that is incorrectly defined as sleep? In instances where sleep is increased but activity during periods during wake are normal or elevated, this is not an issue. But here, the animals might very well be unhealthy, and less active, so naturally they stop moving more for prolonged periods, but the main conclusion is not sleep per se. This is an area where more experiments should be added if the authors do not wish to change/temper the conclusions they draw. Are psen2 KOs responsive to startling stimuli like controls when awake? Do they respond normally when quiescent? Great care must be taken in all models using inactivity as a proxy for sleep, and it can harm the field when there is no acknowledgment that overall health/activity changes could be a confound. Particularly worrisome is the betamethasone data in Figure 6, where activity and sleep are once again coordinately modified by the drug.

      This is a fair criticism. We agree it is a concern, especially in the case of psen2 as we claim that day-time sleep is increased while zebrafish are diurnal. We do not rely heavily on the day-time inactivity being sleep (the ZOLTAR predictions or the small molecule rescue do not change whether the parameter is called sleep or inactivity), but  our choice of labelling may be misleading. We will try to test this claim by plotting the distribution of the inactive period durations. If psen2 knockout larvae indeed sleep more during the day compared to controls, we might predict that inactive periods longer than 1 minute to increase disproportionately compared to the increase in shorter inactive periods.

      To address, “are psen2 KO responsive to startling stimuli like controls when awake/when quiescent”, we can try to look at the behaviour of psen2 knockout larvae that were awake (i.e., moved in the preceding one minute) or ‘asleep’ (i.e., did not move in the preceding one minute) at the light transitions and count the proportion of psen2 knockout or control larvae which displayed a startle response. If most psen2 knockouts react to the light transition, it should at least exclude the concern that they are very unhealthy, as the reviewer suggests. This criticism seems challenging to definitely address experimentally though. A possible approach could be to use a closed-loop system which, after one minute of inactivity, triggers a stimulus which is sufficient to startle an awake larva but not an asleep larva. If psen2 knockout larvae indeed sleep more during the day, the stimulus should usually not be sufficient to startle them. Note, how to calibrate this stimulus is also not straightforward. We do not plan to test this, but our analysis of the light transitions may provide a decent proxy.

      (5) The conclusions for the serotonin section are overstated. Behavioural pharmacology purports to predict a signaling pathway disrupted with sorl1 KO. But is it not just possible that the drug acts in parallel to the true disrupted pathway in these fish? There is no direct evidence for serotonin dysfunction - that conclusion is based on response to the drug. Moreover, it is just 1 drug - is the same phenotype present with another SSRI? Likewise, language should be toned down in the discussion, as this hypothesis is not "confirmed" by the results (consider "supported"). The lack of measured serotonin differences further raises concern that this is not the true pathway. This is another major point that deserves further experimental evidence, because without it, the entire approach (behavioral pharm screen) seems more shaky as a way to identify mechanisms. There are any number of testable hypotheses to pursue such as a) Using transient transgenesis to visualize 5HT neuron morphology (is development perturbed: cell number, neurite morphology, synapse formation); b) Using transgenic Ca reporters to assay 5HT neuron activity.

      Regarding the comment, “is it not just possible that the drug acts in parallel to the true disrupted pathway”, we think no, assuming we understand correctly your question. Key to our argument is the fact that sorl1 knockout larvae react differently to the drug than control larvae. As an example, take night-time sleep bout length, which was not affected by knockout of sorl1 (Fig. 4–suppl. 5). For the sake of the argument, say only dopamine signalling (the “true disrupted pathway”) was affected in sorl1 knockouts but that serotonin signalling was intact. Assuming that citalopram specifically alters serotonin signalling, then treatment should cause the same increase in sleep bout length in both knockouts and controls as serotonin signalling is intact in both. This is not what we see, however. Citalopram caused a greater increase in sleep bout length in sorl1 knockouts than in scrambled-injected larvae. In other words, the effect is non-additive, in the sense that citalopram did not add the same number of Z-scores to sorl1 knockouts or controls. We think this shows that serotonin signalling is somehow different in sorl1 knockouts. Nonetheless, we would concede that the experiment does not necessarily says much about the importance of the serotonin disruption caused by loss of Sorl1. It could be, for example, that the most salient consequence of loss of Sorl1 is cholinergic disruption (see reply to Reviewer #1 above) and that serotonin signalling is a minor theme.

      Furthermore, we agree with you and Reviewer #2 that the conclusions are overly confident. We will repeat this experiment with another SSRI as you suggest. Your suggestions to further test the serotonin system in the sorl1 knockouts are excellent as well, however we do not plan to pursue them at this stage.

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    1. Wiskunde is geen geesteswetenschap1818Neem dus je verzameling L met twee binaire operaties + en · op L mee zodat ∀a, b, c ∈ L : (a+b)+c = a+(b+c),∃0 ∈ L : ∀a ∈ L : a + 0 = 0 + a = a, ∀a ∈ L : ∃a′ ∈ L : a + a′ = a′ + a = 0, ∀a, b ∈ L : a + b = b + a,∀a, b, c ∈ L : (a · b) · c = a · (b · c), ∃1 ∈ L : ∀a ∈ L : a · 1 = 1 · a = a, ∀a ∈ L \ {0} : ∃a−1 ∈ L \ {0} : a · a−1 = a−1 · a = 1,∀a, b ∈ L : a · b = b · a, ∀a, b, c ∈ L : a · (b + c) = a · b + a · c1919https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lichaam_(Ned)_/_Veld_(Be)_20

      ik snap hem niet

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    1. Note: This response was posted by the corresponding author to Review Commons. The content has not been altered except for formatting.

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      Reply to the reviewers

      A. General Statements

      We thank the reviewers for their constructive feedback. We have made significant revisions to the mathematical modelling section of the manuscript to address your concerns. Therefore, some of the specific issues and concerns raised in previous reviews no longer apply. Where that is the case, please see the relevant context in the revision as indicated in the point-by-point description section below. We summarize the key points in the revised manuscript as follows.

      1. The key finding of our study, involving experimental measurements and mathematical modelling, is plasticity in the MinD concentration gradient, which results from spatial differences in molecular interactions and is an intrinsic property of the Min system during cell growth. This study reveals not only the role of the MinD concentration gradient in modulating bacterial cell division site placement but also showcasing an example of cellular components in the form of a concentration gradient in fundamental cellular processes, a concept crucial in cell biology. This work provides conceptual advancement in a quantitative understanding of MinD oscillations in the cellular environment and provides implications for bacterial cell division regulation for further studies in the field.

      2. The reviewer requested clarification on the differences between our study and previous studies involving experimental measurements and mathematical modelling of Min oscillations in cells. We would like to emphasize that although the goal of the previous works was to measure the spatiotemporal distribution of oscillating MinD concentration gradients as a function of cell length, these works conceived the problem differently and therefore used different experimental designs and execution methods, which differentiates our key conclusions from theirs. This is also true for mathematical modelling. Although similar observations can be found in some respects, they are not directly comparable due to the different mathematics and assumptions used in the simulations. For example, our model was built to adequately investigate the biological question of the MinD concentration gradient during cell elongation but not to evaluate the impact of cell shape and confinement or the nucleation effect of MinD. Thus, our model cannot be generalized to other shapes, such as those observed in the study by Wu et al., 2015 (Wu et al, 2015). Therefore, we would like to draw attention to the experimental rigor and to the specific points and views that contribute to our understanding of Min systems. We now provide a comprehensive comparison between them in the Supplemental Information.

      3. We have re-run the simulation to refine and improve the modelling procedures and results, and the corresponding text and illustration are provided in the Results section of the main text (Lines 265-279, 614-653) and Fig. S6. In brief, we fixed the diffusion coefficients D_D and D_E from Meacci et al. (2006) (Meacci et al, 2006); the dissociation rate constant k_de from a previous simulation (Wu et al., 2015); and the experimentally measured MinD and MinE concentrations in this study. Meanwhile, the diffusion coefficients D_d and D_de were assumed values based on bacterial membrane protein diffusion (Schavemaker et al, 2018). This operation allowed us to probe for the general behaviours of the system. As a result, we were able to obtain a few parameter sets, including #2728, that generate features of the oscillation period, λ_N and I_Ratio, that highly mimic MinD oscillation in the cellular context (Figs. 4C, S7-9). We further tested the impact of different kinetic constants, k_de, k_dD, k_dE, k_D, and k_(ADP→ATP), which represent different molecular interactions influencing the oscillation period, λ_N and I_Ratio (Fig 4D-H). Our findings have provided us with a solid theoretical view of how oscillation features may be controlled by different molecular interactions. Furthermore, the modelling results help us understand the possible mechanisms associated with oscillation cycle maintenance and length-dependent variable concentration gradients.

      4. Regarding the inclusion or removal of results from more culture conditions, we decided to keep only one condition as in the previous version for the following reasons. In order to draw convincing conclusions, we consider it more important to characterize all aspects under the same growth condition and avoid manipulation. Therefore, the main conclusions are drawn from our experiments characterizing several aspects of MinD oscillations in cells growing with 0.4% glucose. In support of these observations, we decided to maintain only one other condition, 0.1% glucose. Further analysis of cells growing under other conditions will not change the main conclusions but will increase the difficulty of determining how the MinD concentration changes with cell growth.

      5. Studying the variable concentration gradient underlying the dynamic oscillations of the Min system may be of broad interest to cell biologists since the concentration gradient plays a fundamental role in various cellular processes, and the concept of concentration gradients is crucial in cell biology. Examples of related processes include passive and active transport, osmosis, cell signalling, and maintenance of cellular homeostasis. These processes allow cells to respond to their environment, regulate their internal conditions, and perform important functions required for survival and normal function. In addition, variable concentration gradients, characterized by the numerical descriptor λ_N and was reproduced in a simple mathematical model, demonstrate a nonlinear dynamics behaviour in physical biology. Therefore, the audience of this work can include the broader general audience of cell biology and physical biology rather than just the immediate specialized audience interested in the Min system. We will also reiterate the importance of specialized research, which often provides the basis for broader application and understanding.

      B. Point-by-point description of the revisions

      Reviewer #1 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      Summary: Parada et al. studied both experimentally and theoretically the MinD concentration distribution of Min waves during cell growth. The main finding was that (i) the gradient of MinD is steeper for longer cells and accordingly the MinD concentration at the middle of cell is lower, (ii) period of the oscillation is independent to the cell length, and (iii) those features are shared even under glucose starvation except the MinD gradient is steeper. (iv) Those results are supplemented by the analyses of the reaction-diffusion equations in which parameters that can reproduce the MinD concentration distribution are identified. I think the results are interesting; basically, as the cell grows, the contrast of the wave becomes clearer, such the MinD concentration at the cell centre decreases. The results may clarify the mechanism of FtsZ accumulation at the cell centre more quantitatively. The experiments were performed by measuring the fluorescent intensity of MinD during cell growth and analysing the intensity distribution along the long axis of the cell. The theoretical results were based on the analyses of the reaction-diffusion model. Both approaches are already well established and the results sound. Nevertheless, I do not think the novelty of this work is not well highlighted in the current manuscript; I think most of the results, except (iii) and (iv), have already been shown explicitly or implicitly in the previous studies. Min oscillations in a growing cell have been analysed both theoretically and experimentally in (Meacci 2005) and [1] (Fischer-Friedrich et al, 2010). The concentration distribution and period of the oscillation were measured. The complete results were presented in [2] (Meacci et al., 2006), and I am not aware of those results in scientific journals (the thesis is available online). Nevertheless, I think it is fair to cite those studies and compare the current results with them. In fact, in [2], it was shown that the concentration of MinD near the cell centre decreases as the cell grows, the total MinD concentration is approximately constant during the growth (therefore, the number of the molecules increases), and that the variance of the period becomes smaller as the cell grows. I do not think those previous studies spoil this work, and this work deserves publication somewhere. Still, the authors should highlight the novelty of this study more clearly.

      ANS: We thank the reviewer for recognizing the soundness of our experimental and theoretical approaches and results. The key finding of our study, involving experimental measurements and mathematical modelling, is plasticity in the MinD concentration gradient, which results from spatial differences in molecular interactions and is an intrinsic property of the Min system during cell growth. This study reveals not only the role of the MinD concentration gradient in modulating bacterial cell division site placement but also showcasing an example of cellular components in the form of a concentration gradient in fundamental cellular processes, a concept crucial in cell biology. We believe that the established techniques and methods are integral to a broad range of works and provide confidence in improving them and using them to test hypotheses and obtain results. We also appreciate the reviewer for pointing out that Meacci's PhD thesis entitled "Physical aspects of Min oscillations in Escherichia coli" (Meacci & Kruse, 2005) is available online for public access. This thesis, along with two publications (Meacci & Kruse, 2005) (Meacci et al., 2006), explored Min oscillations in growing cells and used mathematical models. These two published works are cited in the previous version of the manuscript because we agree that these earlier works provide valuable context. As recommended, we went through these works again and the work by Fischer-Friedrich et al. (2010) (Fischer-Friedrich et al., 2010) to compare their wet experiments and mathematical models with ours, which are detailed in the Supplemental Information (Lines 26-147). Here, we emphasize that although the published works and our work set the goal of measuring the spatiotemporal distribution of oscillating MinD concentration gradients as a function of cell length, we conceived the problem differently and therefore used different experimental designs and analysis approaches, which have led to the key conclusions that differentiate our work from theirs.

      Major comments: (i) In (Meacci 2005) and [1,2], it was claimed that the standard deviation of the period is comparable with the mean period, particularly for the shorter cell. Therefore, they did not claim the period is independent to the cell length. As far as I understood, the variance arises from the variance of the total protein concentration in the assemble of cells. I am wondering how the authors are able to conclude the constant period in different cell length. I also point out that in the theoretical part of (Meacci 2005), the period is, in fact, increasing as the cell grows and suddenly decreases at the length in which cell division occurs.

      ANS: In our experiments, we found that the oscillation periods ranged from 36.8 to 65.6 sec, as measured from a population of cells (length of 1.9-4.5 µm; main text, Fig. 1E). Moreover, the standard deviations of the period ranged from 5.4% to 34.8% of the period, with larger standard deviations more common in shorter cells (Fig. 1D), indicating that regular interpolar oscillations are more likely to occur in longer cells. This observation echoes the study by Fischer-Friedrich et al. (2010) (Fischer-Friedrich et al., 2010), who reported stochastic switching MinD oscillation between two cell poles in cells below 2.5 μm. MinD starts to oscillate regularly from pole-to-pole between 2.5-3 μm with an oscillation period of 80 sec. Above 3.5 μm, MinD invariably undergoes regular oscillation with an initial period of 87 sec and then decreases to 70 sec at the end. In their study, they focused on the length-dependent switching from stochastic to regular oscillation states and speculated that the amount of MinE bound to the membrane critically influenced the shift from stochastic to regular interpolar oscillations. In addition, their observation of a longer period at the initial phase and a shorter period after the cells grew beyond 3.5 μm somewhat coincided with our simulation results, as shown in Fig. 4C-H, left. In Meacci's work (Thesis: Figure 2.14; Meacci and Kruse (2005) (Meacci & Kruse, 2005): Figure 5(b)), the temporal oscillation periods were measured from 40 to 120 sec when focusing on cells with lengths similar to those in our measurements (black dots in Meacci's chart). Our measurements of oscillation periods clearly show much smaller fluctuations than those in Meacci's study and are more comparable to Fischer-Friedrich's measurements. Differences can arise across different bacterial strains and culture conditions that may significantly affect the amount and quality of protein expressed in individual studies. In short, all three works differ in terms of experimental design and execution. Although similar observations can be found in some aspects, they are not directly comparable. Therefore, we would like to draw attention to the experimental rigor and specific points and views that contribute to our understanding of the Min system. We have changed the wording from 'constant period' to 'fairly stable period' throughout the manuscript. This description is based on our experimental measurements (Fig. 1D, E) and is also supported by our mathematical modelling (Fig. 4C-H, left). In response to the statement from the theoretical model of (Meacci & Kruse, 2005): "the period is increasing as the cell grows and suddenly decreases at the length in which cell division occurs." First, our simulation results revealed a mild increase in the oscillation period during cell elongation (Fig. 4C). The increase is adjustable by varying the reaction rate constants in the simulation (Fig. 4D-H). Second, although we did not simulate dividing cells, our experimental measurements clearly showed that this period increased in newborn cells (Fig. S4). As mentioned above, although similar observations can be found in different studies, they are not directly comparable because the experiments were performed differently for different purposes. We have added comparison of different models in the Supplemental Information (Lines 26-147).

      (ii) I do not think the explanations of the reaction-diffusion model were well described. The authors mentioned that they studied a one-dimensional model and used the delta function to describe the membrane reaction. Did the authors study 1D cytosol and 0D membrane? Then, why the surface diffusion term exists in (4) and (5)? I believe the authors simply assumed that both the membrane and the cytosol are 1D (with larger diffusion constants for cytosolic Min concentrations). Then, the delta functions in (1)-(5) are not necessary. In (Wu 2015), the delta function was used in order to treat a 2D membrane embedded in 3D space.

      Besides that, there is no description of the initial conditions for the concentration fields to solve the reaction-diffusion equations. I think the description of the no-flux boundary condition is better put in the Methods rather than supplementary materials.

      ANS: Thank you for your suggestions to improve the description of the numerical model. As summarized below, we have rewritten this section of 'Simulating the dynamic MinD concentration gradient in growing cells' in the manuscript (Lines 237-279). We have specified the dimensionality of the rate and diffusion constants of each molecule, where applicable, in our 1D model from Lines 237-264. Their dimensionality can also be conceived from their units, as listed in Tables 2 and S4. We have specified the initial 'no-flux' boundary conditions in Lines 267, 630, and 647. We agree that the delta function is not necessary and have removed it from the equations.

      (iii) As in the previous comment, the current model did not take into account the geometry of the system; namely, cytosol is in 3D and membrane is on 2D. Recent theoretical studies can handle the effect, and also the effect of confinement. I would appreciate it if the authors would make a comment on whether those issues are relevant or not for the conclusion of this work.

      ANS: Thank you for pointing out this interesting aspect of cell geometry as investigated in Wu et al., 2015 (Wu et al., 2015). Our model is built to adequately describe changes in the MinD concentration gradient during cell elongation under the assumption that a 1D description is sufficient. Thus, our model cannot be generalized to other shapes, such as those observed in Wu et al., 2015 (Wu et al., 2015). This point is now commented upon in Supplemental Information, lines 120-123.

      (iv) I would appreciate it if the authors would describe the screening process more clearly. I did understand the first screening is a finite imaginary part and a positive real part at the first mode of spatial inhomogeneity in the eigenvalues. However, I did not understand the other processes clearly. The second screening is based on \lambda_N and I_Ratio, but its criteria is not clear. I think both quantities fluctuated in experimental results and I am not sure what to define numerical results match them. The third process is based on a fitting error using the fitting function of linear increase plus a constant. I am not sure why we need to exclude, for example, the bottom right example in Fig.S6 because it shows no oscillation until the cell length of 3um but then the gradient linearly increases. Please clarify how to justify the criteria. The same argument applies to the fourth screening process. It is not clear why the slope should be smaller than 2.

      ANS: Thank you for your suggestions to improve the description of the screening process. We have re-run the simulation to refine and improve the screening process, and the corresponding text and illustration are provided in the Results section of the main text (Lines 237-279, 614-653) and Fig. S6.

      (v) The authors claimed that the steeper gradient of MinD under glucose starvation results in cell division for shorter cells. I do not think the claim is convincing. It is necessary to measure the correlation between the length at the cell division and the gradient. It would also be nicer to show the correlation under other parameters. I think those studies truly support the authors' claim and the novelty of this work.

      ANS: Thank you for the comments. We would like to draw your attention to the right side of the graph shown in Fig. 3B, E, where measurements were obtained from cells prior to division. Our claim that "the steeper gradient of MinD under glucose starvation results in cell division for shorter cells" is also supported by the wave slope (λ_N range): 0.4% glucose of 1.49-2.66 (cell length range: 1.7-4.5 µm) and glucose starvation of 1.34-3.54 (cell length range: 2.1-3.8 µm). Therefore, under glucose starvation, λ_N increases more significantly with increasing length, allowing us to speculate on the contribution of steeper concentration gradient in stressed shorter cell to division. In the revised manuscript, the statement is kept in the Results section (Lines 217-218), but removed from the abstract. About the correlation between the concentration gradient and cell length at division under different conditions, we consider it more important to characterize all aspects under the same growth condition and avoid manipulation. In this study, the main conclusions are drawn from our experiments characterizing several aspects of MinD oscillations in cells growing with 0.4% glucose. In support of these observations, we decided to maintain only one other condition, 0.1% glucose. Further analysis of cells growing under other conditions will not change the main conclusions but will increase the difficulty of determining how the MinD concentration changes with cell growth.

      (vi) The conclusion at Line 346 "This plasticity arises from spatial differences in molecular interactions between MinD and MinE, as demonstrated..." looks unclear to me. My understanding is that (i) by screening the randomly sampled parameters in the reaction-diffusion model, the authors found the parameters that "match" experimental results, and (ii) the parameters after screening show the correlation between them (k_dD-k_dE and k_D-k_ATP->ADP). The logic heavily relies on the reaction-diffusion model is quantitatively correct. First, I think it is better to explain the logic more explicitly, that is, the claim of the molecular interaction is not based on the experimental facts. Second, I personally think the reaction-diffusion model used in this work does not reproduce quantitatively the experimental results, as discussed in (iii) and also (iv). Please make some discussions on how to justify the comparison between the model and experiments.

      ANS: Thank you for your constructive comments. To address these questions, we have re-run the simulation to refine and improve the results, and the corresponding text and illustration are provided in the Results section of the main text (Lines 237-279, 614-653) and Fig. S6. The kinetic parameters used in this study are described in the main text, lines 258-264: 'To randomly search for combinations of the parameter sets k_dD, k_dE, k_D, and k_(ADP→ATP), the following parameters were fixed in the simulation: the diffusion coefficients D_d and D_de were assumed values based on bacterial membrane proteins (Schavemaker et al., 2018), the diffusion coefficients D_D and D_E were from Meacci et al. (2006) (Meacci et al., 2006), and the dissociation rate constant k_de were from a previous simulation (Wu et al., 2015). This operation allowed us to probe for the general behaviours of the system.' Lines 277-279: 'This screening process reduced the parameter sets to 23, including set #2827, which, judging by the correlation plots for length vs. period, λ_N, and I_Ratio (Figs. S7-S9), showed features similar to those of the experimental data (Figs. 1E, 3B, C).' Based on the parameters of set #2827, we rigorously tested the impact of different kinetic constants that represent different molecular interactions on the oscillation period, λ_N and I_Ratio (Fig 4D-H). The results are described in the section of 'Effect of the kinetic rate constant on the MinD concentration gradient' of the main text, lines 323-349. This effort has provided us with a solid theoretical view of how oscillation features may be controlled by different molecular interactions. In addition, a comparison between our modelling and experimental results is described in the main text, section 'In silico oscillation resembles oscillation in a cellular context', lines 300-321.

      (vii) I did not capture the point why the authors can claim "... further distinguishing in vivo and in vitro observations. " at Line 350. I did not find the results comparing with vitro studies. I would appreciate a demonstration of vitro results and/or references.

      ANS: To avoid confusion, this sentence has been removed.

      Minor comments: (1) Line 214: It should be "Fange and Elf".

      ANS: Line 238 in the revised manuscript: This has been corrected.

      (2) I think it is better to show sampled points in Fig. 4C and 4D to show how dense the authors sampled in the parameter space.

      ANS: Since we have rewritten this part, the suggested revision is no longer applicable.

      REFERENCES: [1] Fischer-Friedrich, Elisabeth / Meacci, Giovanni / Lutkenhaus, Joe / Chaté, Hugues / Kruse, Karsten, "Intra- and intercellular fluctuations in Min-protein dynamics decrease with cell length", Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 107, 6134-6139 (2010). [2] Meacci, Giovanni, "Physical Aspects of Min Oscillations in Escherichia Coli", PhD thesis (2006) available at

      Reviewer #1 (Significance (Required)):

      General assessment: I think the strength of this study is that it potentially shows the quantitative correlation between the MinD concentration gradient during the oscillation and the cell length when it divides. However, the current data of glucose starvation is not convincing enough. The model parts are interesting but their connection to the experiments is not clear in the current manuscript.

      ANS: Thank you for your comment. The key finding of our study, involving experimental measurements and mathematical modelling, is plasticity in the MinD concentration gradient, which results from spatial differences in molecular interactions and is an intrinsic property of the Min system during cell growth. We hypothesized that if the plasticity of the MinD concentration gradient is an intrinsic property of the system, then this property would be robust and show consistent behaviour under different growth conditions. Therefore, we tested this hypothesis by studying MinD oscillations under a low-glucose condition, and the results strengthened the main conclusion derived from experiments under the regular growth condition containing 0.4 % glucose. We believe that further analysis of cells growing under other conditions will not change the main conclusions but may increase the difficulty of determining how the MinD concentration changes with cell growth. Therefore, we decide to make this section concise, containing only one additional condition, even though we have more data than presented here. As mentioned earlier in this response letter, we have re-run the simulation to refine and improve the results, and the corresponding text and illustration are provided in the Results section of the main text (Lines 237-279, 614-653) and Fig. S6. This operation allowed us to probe for the general behaviours of the system. As a result, we were able to obtain a few parameter sets, including #2728, that generate features of the oscillation period, λ_N and I_Ratio, that strongly mimic MinD oscillation in the cellular context (Figs. 4C, S7-9). We further tested the impact of different kinetic constants, k_de, k_dD, k_dE, k_D, and k_(ADP→ATP), which represent different molecular interactions influencing the oscillation period, λ_N and I_Ratio (Figs. 4D-H). This effort has provided us with a solid theoretical view of how oscillation features may be controlled by different molecular interactions.

      Advance: The advance of this study is to measure the MinD concentration gradient under glucose starvation, and to compare the experimental results with the (simplified) model under a wide range of parameters. I do not think the advance in the current manuscript looks conceptual level because the conceptual conclusions are not really convincing from the results. In this respect, the advance of this work may be technical.

      ANS: Thank you for this constructive comment and have responded as follows. In combination with both experimental and theoretical efforts in the revised manuscript, this work provides conceptual advancement in a quantitative understanding of MinD oscillations in the cellular environment and provides implications for bacterial cell division regulation for further studies in the field. Specifically, we would like to emphasize that this work revealed the inherent plasticity and adaptability of the MinD concentration gradient that contributes to division site selection. The mathematical modelling provided us with a solid theoretical view of how oscillation features may be controlled by different molecular interactions.

      Audience: As a theoretician working on biophysics, including the model of the Min system, I think a specialised audience would be interested in this study. People who are studying the mechanism of the Min oscillation and resulting cell division, particularly those who are interested in both experiments and models, would be interested in this work. For the broad audience, I do not think the novelty of this study is well described.

      ANS: Thank you for your comment. We would like to point out that studying the variable concentration gradient underlying the dynamic oscillations of the Min system may be of broad interest to cell biologists since the concentration gradient plays a fundamental role in various cellular processes, and the concept of concentration gradients is crucial in cell biology. Examples include passive and active transport, osmosis, cell signalling, and maintenance of cellular homeostasis. These processes allow cells to respond to their environment, regulate their internal conditions, and perform important functions required for survival and normal function. In addition, the variable concentration gradient, characterized by the numerical descriptor λ_N and reproduced in a simple mathematical model, demonstrates a nonlinear dynamics behaviour in physical biology. Therefore, the audience of this work may include the broader general audience of cell biology and physical biology rather than just the immediate specialized audience interested in the Min system. We will also reiterate the importance of specialized research, which often provides the basis for broader application and understanding.

      Reviewer #2 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      Summary: This work by Parada et al showed that in the oscillatory Min System, MinD gradient was steeper in longer e.coli cells, while period was stable. This behavior was recapitulated in a mathematical model and it also revealed coordinated reaction rates in a wide range of parameter space.

      ANS: We thank the reviewer for the concise summary of our work.

      Major comments: 1. There were some inconsistencies between experimental and modeling data. Wave slope (𝜆𝑁) plateaued at ~3um in the model but not shown in the experiment (Fig.3B). The period was much less in the model (Fig. S8) than in the experiment (Fig. 1B).

      ANS: Thank you for pointing out this problem. We have re-run the simulation to refine and improve the results, and the corresponding text and illustration are provided in the Results section of the main text (Lines 237-279, 614-653) and Fig. S6. This operation allowed us to probe for the general behaviours of the system. As a result, we were able to obtain a few parameter sets, including #2728, that generate features of the oscillation period, λ_N and I_Ratio, that highly mimic MinD oscillation in the cellular context (Figs. 4C, S7-9). Regarding oscillation period, the simulation result was shorter than the experimental measurements. Even though, based on the parameters of set #2827, we rigorously tested the impact of different kinetic constants that represent different molecular interactions on the oscillation period, λ_N and I_Ratio (Main text, lines 323-349; Fig 4D-H). This effort has provided us with a theoretical view of how oscillation features may be controlled by different molecular interactions. We found that the rate constants k_de, representing detachment of the MinDE complex from the membrane, and k_(ADP→ATP), representing recharging of MinD-ADP with ATP, more significantly affected the oscillation period. The results suggested that the oscillation cycle time is tunable. In response to the question of the wave slope (λ_N) plateaued at ~3um in the modelling (Fig. 3B) but not shown in the experiment (Fig. 1D), we think this is due to experimental examination of a heterogenous population of cells versus simulating a growing bacterial cell. We came up with conclusions and hypotheses through wet experiments, which were further strengthened using mathematical modelling, providing insights into kinetic properties of the Min system.

      1. Generally, I found that the data of starved condition added little to the major message. Unless the model can recapitulate the even steeper gradient in such condition by tuning starvation-related parameters, it may be removed.

      ANS: We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. The key finding of our study, involving experimental measurements and mathematical modelling, is plasticity in the MinD concentration gradient, which results from spatial differences in molecular interactions and is an intrinsic property of the Min system during cell growth. We hypothesized that if the plasticity of the MinD concentration gradient is an intrinsic property of the system, then this property would be robust and show consistent behaviour under different growth conditions. Therefore, we tested this hypothesis by studying MinD oscillations under a low-glucose condition, and the results strengthened the main conclusion derived from experiments under the regular growth condition containing 0.4 % glucose. We agree that further analysis of cells growing under other conditions will not change the main conclusions but may increase the difficulty of determining how the MinD concentration changes with cell growth. Therefore, we decide to make this section concise, containing only one additional condition, even though we have more data than presented here.

      1. The authors need to compare what was different/novel between the model in this study and previous models such as Wu, et al 2015 and highlight the uniqueness of this work.

      ANS: Thank you for this suggestion. We now provide a comprehensive comparison between them in the Supplemental Information (Lines 26-147). We would like to emphasize that although the goal of the previous works was to measure the spatiotemporal distribution of oscillating MinD concentration gradients as a function of cell length, these works conceived the problem differently and therefore used different experimental designs and execution methods, which differentiates our key conclusions from theirs. This is also true for mathematical modelling. Although similar observations can be found in some respects, they are not directly comparable due to the different mathematics and assumptions used in the simulations. Therefore, we would like to draw attention to the experimental rigor and to the specific points and views that contribute to our understanding of Min systems.

      1. The model explored parameter space of reaction rates and found 60 sets. The KdE, KD, KdD, KADP-ATP ranged 6 orders of magnitude. It is interesting data in itself, but cells were not likely to vary that much for reaction rates. The relevance should be discussed.

      ANS: Thank you for pointing out this problem. For this revision, we re-ran the simulation to refine and improve the results, allowing us to identify parameter sets that generate features resembling the experimental measurements. Using set #2728 as an example, the variations in the five rate constants k_de, k_dD, k_dE, k_D, and k_(ADP→ATP) fall within a small range (Table 2, S4), eliminating the concern that arose from the previous version of the manuscript. We found that this parameter set allows for maximum utilization of MinD and MinE molecules, which are fixed in number according to experimental measurements, to drive membrane-associated oscillations in the simulation.

      Minor comments: 1. Fig.1B colors were conflicting. The legend was different than diagram. Fig.1C no scale for x axis.

      ANS: We have resolved the colour conflict in Fig. 1B, and a time range has been added to Fig. 1C.

      1. Fig.S6A How the 638 oscillatory parameter sets were matched with experimental data and screened to 174 sets was not clear. Data of fitting errorANS: Thank you for your suggestions to improve the description of the screening process. In this revision, we have re-run the simulation to refine and improve the results, and the corresponding text and illustration are provided in the Results section of the main text (Lines 237-279, 614-653) and Fig. S6. This operation allowed us to probe for the general behaviours of the system. The mentioned filter no longer applies.

      2. Significant digits were not used properly. For example, the period (table 1) was showed as 46.00 sec, but the imaging interval was 12 sec, the 2 decimal digits were thus meaningless. The same argument goes for length measurement at 2.84 um, while the optical resolution of the microscope used should be no good than 200nm.

      ANS: We have corrected this significant digit throughout the manuscript.

      1. For scatter plot like Fig.1D-G, generally smaller dots would show trend more obvious.

      ANS: We have modified the plots and used smaller dots in Figs. 1D-G, 3B, C, E, F, S3D, and S5B, C.

      1. The molecular mechanism of why MinD gradient increases with length was not the scope of the current study, but better to be discussed.

      ANS: Let me address this comment in another way. The key finding of our study, involving experimental measurements and mathematical modelling, is plasticity in the MinD concentration gradient, which results from spatial differences in molecular interactions and is an intrinsic property of the Min system during cell growth. In the revised manuscript, we have re-run the simulation to refine and improve the modelling procedures and results, and the corresponding text and illustration are provided in the Results section of the main text (Lines 265-279, 614-653) and Fig. S6. In brief, we fixed the diffusion coefficients D_D and D_Efrom Meacci et al. (2006) (Meacci et al., 2006); the dissociation rate constant k_de from a previous simulation (Wu et al., 2015); and the experimentally measured MinD and MinE concentrations in this study. Meanwhile, the diffusion coefficients D_d and D_de were assumed values based on bacterial membrane protein diffusion (Schavemaker et al., 2018). This operation allowed us to probe for the general behaviours of the system. As a result, we were able to obtain a few parameter sets, including #2728, that generate features of the oscillation period, λ_N and I_Ratio, that highly mimic MinD oscillation in the cellular context (Figs. 4C, S7-9). We further tested the impact of different kinetic constants, k_de, k_dD, k_dE, k_D, and k_(ADP→ATP), which represent different molecular interactions influencing the oscillation period, λ_N and I_Ratio (Fig 4D-H). Our findings have provided us with a solid theoretical view of how oscillation features may be controlled by different molecular interactions. Furthermore, the modelling results help us understand the possible mechanisms associated with oscillation cycle maintenance and length-dependent variable concentration gradients.

      1. Fig. S8, why sudden jump in period in many of the sets of both groups?

      ANS: This supplemental figure is now Fig. S7. A slower oscillation at the initiation of oscillation appears to be a common property in our simulation.

      Reviewer #2 (Significance (Required)):

      Min system was well-studied oscillation mechanism to restrict FtsZ at cell center. Previous work has shown how the system work molecularly, simulated the behavior and reconstituted many different patterns in vitro. The major new information from this work was: 1. the rigorously measured endogenous level of MinD and MinE; 2. gradient increased with length; 3. a model recapitulated this relationship and explored parameter space of reaction rates. The paper was well presented, experiments and analysis were rigorous, and the conclusions were not overstated. It should interest specialized cell biologists studying cell size, oscillation pattern.

      ANS: Many thanks to Reviewer 2 for recognizing the contributions of our work to the understanding of the Min system and its role in cell division. We also thank you for identifying professional cell biologists studying cell size and oscillation patterns as readers of our paper. We would like to emphasize that cellular concentration gradients play a fundamental role in various cellular processes and that the concept of concentration gradients is crucial in cell biology. These concentration gradient-mediated processes allow cells to respond to their environment, regulate their internal conditions and perform important functions required for survival. In addition, the variable concentration gradient, characterized by the numerical descriptor λ_N and reproduced in a simple mathematical model, demonstrates a nonlinear dynamics behaviour in physical biology. Therefore, the audience of this work may include a broader audience in the field of cell biology and physical biology rather than just an immediate specialist audience. We will also reiterate the importance of specialized research, which often provides the basis for broader application and understanding.

      Reviewer #3 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      The manuscript shows that the concentration of MinD does not change during the division cycle of E. coli. Due to the oscillation pattern the concentration of MinD decreases at the mid-cell which makes it favorable for the division. The mid-cell decrease in concentration of MinD is majorly length dependent. The oscillation pattern is not due to the change in concentration of MinD, but due to the plasticity arises from the spatial differences in molecular interactions between MinD and MinE. The manuscript is well written, the experiments are performed carefully and the results will be of interest to readers from variety of field. However, there are several concerns need explanation.

      ANS: We greatly appreciate the positive feedback from the reviewer, and we address the specific concerns below.

      Major concerns: One of my major concern is these interactions are not shown experimentally but explained using either the previously published literature or mathematical models. Further, the previous literatures are shown on in vitro models which does not mimic the in vivo system fully.

      ANS: We thank the reviewer for the important point that reaction rates in previous studies and in our model of Min oscillations have not been experimentally tested. We are aware of the lack of experimental measurements, but these reaction rates cannot be measured in batch reactions using classical biochemical methods. To accurately measure these reaction rates, the experiments require advanced techniques and methods to handle spatial and temporal resolution, which is beyond the scope of our current study. However, in the revised manuscript, we have re-run the simulation to refine and improve the results, and the corresponding text and illustration are provided in the Results section of the main text (Lines 237-279, 614-653) and Fig. S6. In our simulation, we fixed the diffusion coefficients D_D and D_E from Meacci et al. (2006) (Meacci et al., 2006); the dissociation rate constant k_de from a previous simulation (Wu et al., 2015); and the experimentally measured MinD and MinE concentrations in this study. Meanwhile, the diffusion coefficients D_d and D_de were assumed values based on bacterial membrane protein diffusion (Schavemaker et al., 2018). This operation allowed us to probe for the general behaviours of the system. As a result, we were able to obtain a few parameter sets, including #2728, that generate features of the oscillation period, λ_N and I_Ratio, that highly mimic MinD oscillation in the cellular context (Figs. 4C, S7-9). Interestingly, we found that this parameter set allows for maximum utilization of MinD and MinE molecules, which are fixed numbers from experimental measurements, to drive membrane-associated oscillations in the simulation. We further tested the impact of different kinetic constants, k_de, k_dD, k_dE, k_D, and k_(ADP→ATP), which represent different molecular interactions influencing the oscillation period, λ_N and I_Ratio (Figs. 4D-H). Our findings have provided us with a solid theoretical view of how oscillation features may be controlled by different molecular interactions, and help us understand the possible mechanisms associated with oscillation cycle maintenance and length-dependent variable concentration gradients.

      The concentration of MinD does not change with the increasing length of the cell. Is the MinD concentration (or copy numbers) is different in the case of cells growing in low glucose and when compared to the cells growing at high glucose?

      ANS: Thank you for the comments. As shown in Figs. 2B, C, the concentration of MinD changed with cell length, but the number of MinD molecules per unit area did not change significantly with cell length. Although how the number of MinD molecules changes when cells are grown under low-glucose conditions is unclear, this number does not appear to be essential for the following reasons. We focused on studying Min oscillations during the normal growth cycle, minimizing experimental manipulations to analyse oscillation dynamics. Measurements of oscillations in cells grown under low-glucose conditions support the primary measurements. We think that further analysis of MinD concentration changes in growing cells under low-glucose conditions will not change the main conclusion of this manuscript: 'plasticity in the MinD concentration gradient is an intrinsic property of the Min system during cell growth',

      As per the current study a particular I-ratio at the mid-cell is required to initiate the cell division. In the case of cells growing at low glucose, how this required I-ratio is achieved at the mid-cell?

      ANS: Thank you for the excellent question. As described in the main text, lines 199-201, I_Ratio is defined as the ratio of the minimum intensity to the maximum intensity measured from the experimental data, which gradually decreases as the cell length increases (Fig. 3C). Since the minimum and maximum intensities were measured from the concentration gradient, which is characterized by the slope of the concentration gradient (λ_N), there exists a correlation between I_Ratio and λ_N. That is, a larger λ_N will result in a smaller I_Ratio, and vice versa. When comparing measurements made from cells grown with 0.4% and 0.1% glucose (Fig. 3B, C, E, F), the changes in λ_N are more drastic within a shorter length under low-glucose condition, which is accompanied by more drastic changes in I_Ratio. Furthermore, when the I_Ratio value was approximately 0.5, the corresponding cell length was significantly shorter under low-glucose condition. Therefore, we speculate that there may be an effective I_Ratio that is low enough for stable FtsZ ring formation. This effective I_Ratio can occur at any cell length, allowing us to see that bacteria divide at shorter cell lengths under low-glucose conditions. This property necessitates a faster reduction in the concentration gradient to reach the effective I_Ratio for cells dividing at shorter lengths. As a result, by adjusting λ_N as a function of length, the steepness of the I_Ratio reduction can be altered. Please see the main text, lines 389-406.

      There is decrease in the MinD oscillation time observed in low glucose condition. As explained by the authors the MinD oscillation is mainly guided by the FtsE induced removal of MinD from the membrane, how the authors can explain this decrease?

      ANS: Thank you for raising the question of how the MinE-induced detachment of membrane-bound MinD contributes to the oscillation time of MinD under low-glucose conditions. Although this is an interesting question, determining what regulates MinE-induced detachment of membrane-bound MinD under low-glucose conditions is beyond the scope of the current study. This unknown regulatory mechanism that regulates MinD-MinE interactions in growing cells under low glucose conditions is worthy of further investigation. However, our modelling results have provided a theoretical view of how oscillation features may be controlled by different molecular interactions between MinD and MinE and may guide future experiments investigating the underlying mechanism involved. Please refer to the Results section: 'Spatiotemporal distribution of the concentration gradient' in the main text, lines 351-373.

      Further, it is explained that the concentration of cellular ATP is in much higher concentration compared to the required amount for this oscillation. As the Iratio is majorly dependent on the cell length, what could be the reason for the differential N in the case of low and high glucose condition?

      ANS: Please refer to the previous answer to the question: 'As per the current study a particular I-ratio at the mid-cell is required to initiate the cell division. In the case of cells growing at low glucose, how this required I-ratio is achieved at the mid-cell?'. (this letter, Lines 764-779) In addition, our modelling in search of parameter sets that generate characteristics of MinD oscillation resembling oscillation in vivo allowed us to evaluate the impact of different molecular interactions, as represented by different rate constants (Fig. 4), which has provided important information for future mechanistic investigations, although not in the present study. Please see the Results section: 'Effect of the kinetic rate constant on the MinD concentration gradient' in the main text, lines 323-349.

      MinD is a highly insoluble protein. It also has an amphipathic helix and thus most of the time it binds to the membrane. The method used by the author to determine the cellular MinD concentration (mentioned in Fig S1) will only give the concentration of the soluble MinD and not of the total MinD. How the authors justify this as the total concentration. This is also the same in the case of MinE copy number calculation. Authors may need to perform the transcriptome analysis and compare both the data.

      ANS: We thank the reviewer for the comments. Since the attachment of MinD and MinE to the membrane is transient and MinD-membrane interactions require ATP, we expected that most of the protein would be released from the membrane into the cytoplasm after cell disruption, sufficiently representing the total MinD concentration. Furthermore, our measurements of molecule numbers are within the range of previous measurements (Di Ventura & Sourjik, 2011; Juarez & Margolin, 2010; Meacci & Kruse, 2005; Tostevin & Howard, 2006; Touhami et al, 2006). Thus, we believe that our current measurements are reliable and sufficient for subsequent interpretation.

      One of the main question asked by the authors in the abstract is. "How the intracellular Min protein concentration gradients are coordinated with cell growth to achieve spatiotemporal accuracy of cell division is unknown". Although the authors have shown that there is a change in concentration gradient during cell growth, the mechanism for the same is not very well explained. Authors have not provided any specific explanation for the increase in the velocity of the MinD oscillation and the gradient formation. How the velocity of MinD is increasing although there is no increase in the MinD concentration.

      ANS: We have changed 'the mechanism' to 'the exact way' in the abstract (Abstract, line 28). Moreover, in the revised manuscript, we have improved the mathematical model and performed a thorough investigation of the variations in the kinetic constants. This effort has provided us with a solid theoretical view of how oscillation features may be controlled by different molecular interactions. The results may guide future experiments investigating the underlying mechanism involved. Please refer the answers to previous questions above.

      Figure 2B: shows the overall concentration of MinD in a single cell varies between 1180 - 1160 molecules/um2. In Fig 2C it is mentioned that mid-cell has a MinD concentration of 120-20 molecuels/ um2. Further, Fig3C and 3F shows I-ratio values varies between 0.6-0.4. Considering the values given the I-ratio (I min/ I max) should be between 0.1- 0.01. Authors need to explain the same. Figure 2C: The data in both the Y-axes are not matching and needs more clarification in the legend. Whether the number of molecules were counted only in the marked 200 nm area? If so, why the Y-axis 1 (molecules/um2) is decreasing 7 times, whereas, Y-axis 2 (molecules) is only by 2 times.

      ANS: In this work, we measured sfGFP-MinD intensity through fluorescence microscopy. The fluorescence intensity was converted into molecular numbers based on estimates from Western blot analyses (Fig. S1). This number of molecules for MinD and MinE was assumed to be the mean number, which was fit into the midpoint of the doubling time (Fig. 2B, black dashed line; main text, lines 166-167). Fig. 2C was obtained by further processing the same dataset to restrict the region of analysis to the midcell zone. Please refer to the main text, lines 158-178. However, the λ_N and I_Ratio values were calculated from the processed intensity data (Fig. S2; main text, lines 190-209, 533-559). Because of the conversion from intensity to molecule number in Figs. S2B, C and the image processing procedure applied to the calculation of λ_N and I_Ratio, it is not possible to directly compare the fold change and the upper and lower limits between molecule numbers and the λ_N and I_Ratio values.

      Other comments: Line 84: Requires reference for this statement.

      ANS: A recent review article has been added in the main text, line 84: '(Cameron & Margolin, 2024)'.

      Line 96: Can authors provide other evidence or validation for the determination of the copy numbers such as transcriptome analysis.

      ANS: We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. However, we believe that direct measurement of cellular protein abundance is reliable and sufficient for our purposes. Furthermore, transcriptome-measured RNA abundance does not translate directly to protein abundance in living cells because posttranscriptional processing, translation, posttranslational processing, and protein stability issues complicate the interpretation. Therefore, protein abundance measurement from cell extracts is straightforward for our purpose.

      Fig 1C: what is the units of time in Fig 1C? Is it equal for all the cell lengths?

      ANS: As described in the main text, lines 511-512, 'Time-lapse images of sfGFP-MinD were acquired at 12-sec intervals for 10 min or before the fluorescence diminished'. This condition is applied to all the acquired images in this work.

      Page 6, line 136-138: what could be the possible mechanism for change in velocity at different cell cycle time?

      ANS: To avoid confusion, we have modified the text and tone down the velocity when mentioned. This is because the mentioned velocity is inferred from the measured oscillation period and cell length but not from direct measurements; our emphasis is on understanding how the oscillation period remains fairly stable during cell growth rather than how the velocity changes. In the revised manuscript, we used modelling results to elucidate the possible mechanism related to period maintenance. The corresponding text and illustration are provided in the Results section (Lines 300-373) and the Discussion section of the main text (Lines 407-446) and Figs. 4, 5. In brief, this simulation allowed us to probe for general behaviours of the system, allowing us to obtain a few parameter sets that generate features of the oscillation period, λ_N and I_Ratio highly mimicking MinD oscillation in the cellular context (Fig 4C, S7-9). We further tested the impact of different kinetic constants, k_de, k_dD, k_dE, k_D, and k_(ADP→ATP), which represent different molecular interactions influencing the oscillation period, λ_N and I_Ratio (Fig 4D-H). This effort has provided us with a solid theoretical view of how oscillation features may be controlled by different molecular interactions. Please see the Results section: 'Effect of the kinetic rate constant on the MinD concentration gradient' in the main text, lines 323-349.

      Page 7, line 155: Any evidence for claiming the same?

      ANS: The sentence has been modified as follows: 'Thus, the fairly stable oscillation period and variable velocity did not change the precision of the septum placement.' (Main text, lines 155-156)

      Page 7, line 156: Is there any proof authors can show that burst MinD synthesis occurs during the division? If not in the case of MinD, is it shown in any other protein?

      ANS: The text is now in line 168-171: 'Interestingly, the value after division was not doubled, which could indicate a balanced outcome between de novo synthesis and degradation or a burst of MinD synthesis at cell division followed by constant synthesis.' In previous studies by Männik et al. (2018) (Mannik et al, 2018) and Vischer et al. (2015) (Vischer et al, 2015), the division protein FtsZ increased the cellular concentration throughout the cell cycle under slow growth conditions and degraded rapidly at the end of the cell cycle, a process controlled by the ClpXP protease. Because we do not know the relevance of these observations to our study, which focused on the plasticity of the MinD concentration gradient, we decided not to discuss them in the manuscript.

      Page 9, line 217: The Fig 4A is not explained clearly and all the terms mentioned needs to be explained. This figure is used to explain the differential concentration of MinD at the poles and the mid-cell, thus needs to be explain more clearly.

      ANS: Thank you for your comments. Please refer to the above answer to the question: 'One of my major concern is these interactions are not shown experimentally but explained using either the previously published literature or mathematical models. Further, the previous literatures are shown on in vitro models which does not mimic the in vivo system fully.', in this letter, lines 691-715.

      Page 12, line 285: What is meaning of default speed of MinD oscillation in new-born cells? Do the authors observed any specific velocity in the new-born cells? What is the explanation for length dependent oscillation velocity for MinD?

      ANS: Thank you for the questions. As mentioned earlier, the emphasis of this study is on understanding how the oscillation period remains relatively stable while showing plasticity of the concentration gradient during cell growth. The velocity is inferred from the oscillation period and cell length but is not a direct measurement. To avoid confusion, we have modified the text and placed less emphasis on the velocity when mentioned.

      Reviewer #3 (Significance (Required)):

      General assessment: Major work of the manuscript is relying on the mathematical models, whereas the audience are majorly from the biology fields and thus simplified explanations are required in many places. Many of the legends in the figures require more explanation for better understanding. If possible more experimental data can be added, specifically to explain the model mentioned in figure 4A.

      ANS: We have modified the figure legends to include more explanations. As mentioned above, we have also revised Fig. 4 to include improvements in modelling results to better fit the experimental data and to examine the impacts of the kinetics constants of the reaction steps in the Min system. Please refer to lines 691-715 in this letter.

      Advance: The study is adding to the existing knowledge and will be helpful to fill the conceptual gaps in understanding the mid-cell MinD concentration and what may favor the initiation of bacterial division. Audience: Majorly the microbiology community will be interested in the study. This will also be interest to Physicists and mathematical persons working to understand bacterial division.

      ANS: We thank the reviewer for this positive comment.

      Reviewer #4 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      The study by Parada et al. illuminates the intricate interplay between Min proteins, exemplified by MinD, and cell growth in E. coli. Their findings demonstrate that the MinD concentration gradient steepens progressively as cells elongate, potentially influencing FtsZ ring formation via MinC. Moreover, their comprehensive reaction-diffusion model not only corroborates experimental observations of length-dependent concentration gradients but also underscores the critical role of kinetic interactions involving Min proteins, the membrane, and ATP. This elucidation significantly advances our understanding of the oscillatory mechanisms within the Min system. Both the experimental and simulation data are robust, and the manuscript is exceptionally well-written. I express my full support for publication pending the satisfactory resolution of the outlined concerns.

      ANS: We appreciate the reviewer's positive feedback and have addressed most issues to the best of our ability.

      1. Remove the dot in front of "Min" in line 57.

      ANS: This has now been removed.

      1. In lines 82-84, the statement "...The distribution of the division inhibitor MinC may be synchronized with spatiotemporal differences in MinD concentrations, leading to a stable placement of the FtsZ ring at the midcell..." suggests a potential synchronization between MinC and MinD oscillations. It is crucial to investigate if sfGFP-MinC exhibits similar concentration gradient oscillatory behavior in vivo as observed with MinD.

      ANS: Thank you for bringing up this question. The key finding of our study, involving experimental measurements and mathematical modelling, is plasticity in the MinD concentration gradient, which results from spatial differences in molecular interactions and is an intrinsic property of the Min system during cell growth. With many investigations already covered in this manuscript, we prefer to investigate sfGFP-MinC in future studies, which will have different focuses on how MinC dynamics are coupled with the variable MinD concentration gradient to directly impact FtsZ ring formation.

      1. Ensure consistent significant digits throughout the text. For instance, 1.95{plus minus}0.16 μM in line 97, 1.4{plus minus}0.13 μM in line 98, and 1.9 {plus minus} 0.2 μM in line 100 have varying precision. Consider using integers for molecules.

      ANS: We have corrected the significant digits in the main text and supplemental information.

      1. Address the discrepancy in expression levels of MinD and MinE between strain FW1541 and its parental strain W3110. Given the labeling effect, it is possible that MinD expression levels differ. However, MinC's expression level should be approximately the same. Conduct whole-genome sequencing of both strains to identify any additional mutations.

      ANS: Thank you for the comments. As described in the main text (Lines 67-70), the most important aspect is the concentration ratio between MinD and MinE. Although the numbers are not the same, they are comparable to those in previous studies (Hale et al, 2001; Li et al, 2014; Schmidt et al, 2016; Shih et al, 2002) (Main text, lines 113-115). Furthermore, we performed whole-genome sequencing of the W3110 and FW1541 strains. We confirmed that sfGFP was correctly inserted. The sequence alignment of the minCDE locus is provided for your reference but not for publication. Although there are some sporatic point mutations, there is no obvious reason to believe that the mutations would impact Min protein expression. We will organize the deposition data as soon as I can.

      1. Clarify the apparent discrepancy between lines 112 and 127. Line 112 suggests that the periodic regularity of interpolar oscillations increases with cell length, as demonstrated in Fig 1B-C, 1E, Fig S5. However, in the subsequent section (starting from line 127), the authors state that oscillation periods remain relatively stable across cells of different lengths. Provide clarification on this apparent discrepancy.

      ANS: Thank you for pointing out this confusion caused by misuse of the term. In Lines 122-123, the statement has been modified as follows: '...the uniformity of the oscillation intervals appears to increase with length...' In line 139, 'The oscillation period' refers to the time required for the oscillation cycle. Since the correction in line 123 should suffice to clarify, we did not modify the statement in line 139.

      1. Specify if the analysis was limited to non-constricted cells. If so, state this explicitly in the text, as it could impact the interpretation of results, especially in relation to the linear dependence of cell length on time before constriction, as shown in Fig S3C.

      ANS: We did not specifically remove those constricted cells, but cells before splitting were considered one cell. We have added a statement to clarify in Lines 144-145.

      1. Improve clarity in Fig 2A by using distinct colors (e.g., green and red) for differentiation on the Y-axis.

      ANS: The Y axes of Fig. 2A have been modified.

      1. Correct "of" to "from" in line 223 for improved clarity and accuracy.

      ANS: Corrected.

      1. Include the missing "A" in Fig S6A for completeness and accuracy.

      ANS: This figure has been updated.

      1. Ensure consistency in referencing style (full names versus short names) throughout the manuscript.

      ANS: This has now been done.

      Reviewer #4 (Significance (Required)):

      While numerous commendable in vitro studies have explored the oscillatory behavior of the Min system, this work uniquely delves into the oscillation of MinD within live cells. It unveils the remarkable coordination between intracellular Min protein concentration gradients and cell growth, shedding light on the precise spatiotemporal regulation of cell division.

      ANS: We thank the reviewer for this positive comment.

      References Di Ventura B, Sourjik V (2011) Self-organized partitioning of dynamically localized proteins in bacterial cell division. Molecular systems biology 7: 457 Fischer-Friedrich E, Meacci G, Lutkenhaus J, Chate H, Kruse K (2010) Intra- and intercellular fluctuations in Min-protein dynamics decrease with cell length. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America 107: 6134-6139 Hale CA, Meinhardt H, de Boer PA (2001) Dynamic localization cycle of the cell division regulator MinE in Escherichia coli. The EMBO journal 20: 1563-1572 Juarez JR, Margolin W (2010) Changes in the Min oscillation pattern before and after cell birth. Journal of bacteriology 192: 4134-4142 Li GW, Burkhardt D, Gross C, Weissman JS (2014) Quantifying absolute protein synthesis rates reveals principles underlying allocation of cellular resources. Cell 157: 624-635 Mannik J, Walker BE, Mannik J (2018) Cell cycle-dependent regulation of FtsZ in Escherichia coli in slow growth conditions. Molecular microbiology 110: 1030-1044 Meacci G, Kruse K (2005) Min-oscillations in Escherichia coli induced by interactions of membrane-bound proteins. Phys Biol 2: 89-97 Meacci G, Ries J, Fischer-Friedrich E, Kahya N, Schwille P, Kruse K (2006) Mobility of Min-proteins in Escherichia coli measured by fluorescence correlation spectroscopy. Phys Biol 3: 255-263 Schavemaker PE, Boersma AJ, Poolman B (2018) How Important Is Protein Diffusion in Prokaryotes? Front Mol Biosci 5: 93 Schmidt A, Kochanowski K, Vedelaar S, Ahrne E, Volkmer B, Callipo L, Knoops K, Bauer M, Aebersold R, Heinemann M (2016) The quantitative and condition-dependent Escherichia coli proteome. Nature biotechnology 34: 104-110 Shih YL, Fu X, King GF, Le T, Rothfield L (2002) Division site placement in E. coli: mutations that prevent formation of the MinE ring lead to loss of the normal midcell arrest of growth of polar MinD membrane domains. The EMBO journal 21: 3347-3357 Tostevin F, Howard M (2006) A stochastic model of Min oscillations in Escherichia coli and Min protein segregation during cell division. Phys Biol 3: 1-12 Touhami A, Jericho M, Rutenberg AD (2006) Temperature dependence of MinD oscillation in Escherichia coli: running hot and fast. Journal of bacteriology 188: 7661-7667 Vischer NO, Verheul J, Postma M, van den Berg van Saparoea B, Galli E, Natale P, Gerdes K, Luirink J, Vollmer W, Vicente M, den Blaauwen T (2015) Cell age dependent concentration of Escherichia coli divisome proteins analyzed with ImageJ and ObjectJ. Front Microbiol 6: 586 Wu F, van Schie BG, Keymer JE, Dekker C (2015) Symmetry and scale orient Min protein patterns in shaped bacterial sculptures. Nature nanotechnology 10: 719-726

    1. Note: This response was posted by the corresponding author to Review Commons. The content has not been altered except for formatting.

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      Reply to the reviewers

      Manuscript number: RC-2024-02393

      Corresponding author(s): Katja Petzold

      1. General Statements [optional]

      We thank the reviewers for recognising the impact of our manuscript. The reviewers noted the novelty of the miRNA bulge structure, the importance of the three observed binding modes and their potential for use in future structure-based drug design, and the possible importance of the duplex release phenomenon. We are also thankful for the relevant and constructive feedback provided.

      Our responses to the comments are written point by point in blue, and any changes in the manuscript are shown in red.

      2. Description of the planned revisions

      In response to Reviewer 1 - major comment 2

      Some of the data is over-interpreted. For example, in Figure 3A, it is concluded that supplementary regions are more important for weaker seeds. Only two 8-mer seeds are present among the twelve target sites and thus it might be difficult to generalize.

      We found the relationship between seed type and the effect of supplementary pairing in our data intriguing. To further investigate this effect, we tested whether it exists in published microarray data from HCT116 cells transfected with six different miRNAs (Linsley et al., 2007; Argawal et al., 2015). Here we found that the for the two miRNAs (miR-103 and miR-106b) where we see an impact of supplementary pairing, the difference is primarily driven by 7mer-m8 seeds.

      Since the effect appears to be specific to the miRNA, we would like to test whether it can be observed for miR-34a in a larger dataset. Therefore, we plan to transfect HEK293T cells with miR-34a and analyse the mRNA response via RNAseq. We will repeat the analysis shown above, using the predicted number of supplementary pairs to categorise the dataset into groups with or without the effect of supplementary pairing. We will then compare the three seed types within these groups.

      In response to Reviewer 2 - minor comment 1, "why was the 34-nt 3'Cy3-labeled miR34a complementary probe shifted up in the presence of AGO?".

      We plan to investigate the upper band, which we hypothesise is a result of duplex release, using EMSA to ascertain whether the band height agrees with the size of the duplex.

      3. Description of the revisions that have already been incorporated in the transferred manuscript

      Reviewer #1

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      Sweetapple et al. Biophysics of microRNA-34a targeting and its influence on down-regulation

      In this study, the authors have investigated binding of miR-34a to a panel of natural target sequences using EMSA, luciferase reporter systems and structural probing. The authors compared binding within a binary and a ternary complex that included Ago2 and find that Ago2 affects affinity and strengthens weak binders and weakens strong binders. The affinity is, however, generally determined by binary RNA-RNA interactions also in the ternary complex. Luciferase reporter assays containing 12 different target sites that belong to one of three seed-match types were tested. Generally, affinity is a strong contributor to repression efficiency. Duplex release, a phenomenon observed for specific miRNA-target complementarities, seems to be more pronounced when high affinity within the binary complex is observed. Furthermore, the authors use RABS for structural probing either in a construct in CIS or binding by the individual miRNA in TRANS or in a complex with Ago2. They find pronounced asymmetric target binding and Ago2 does not generally change the binding pattern. The authors observe one specific structural group that was unexpected, which was mRNA binding with bulged miRNAs, which was expected sterically problematic based on the known structures. MD simulations, however, revealed that such structures could indeed form.

      This is an interesting manuscript that contributes to our mechanistic understanding of the miRNA-target pairing rules. The combination of affinity measurements, structural probing and luciferase reporters allow for a broad correlation of target binding and repression strength, which is a well-thought and highly conclusive approach. However, there are a number of shortcomings that are summarized below.

      The manuscript is not easy to read and to follow for several reasons. First, many of the sub-Figures are not referenced in the text of the results section (1C, 1D, 2C, 4D), which is somewhat annoying. Figure 4A seems to be mis-labeled. Second, a lot of data is presented in suppl. Figures. It should be considered to move more data into the main text in order to make it easier for readers to evaluate and follow.

      Thank you for bringing this to our attention. We have now revised the figure references accordingly.

      We have relocated gel images of BCL2, WNT1, MTA2 and the control samples from Figure S3 and S4 to the main results (Figure 2A-B) to improve readability and provide controls and details that aid in clear understanding. Additionally, we have relocated panel C from Figure S6 to Figure 2C to enhance the clarity of our rationale for using polyuridine (pU) in our AGO2 binding assays.

      The updated figure is shown below, with changes to the legend marked in red.

      Figure 2. Binary and ternary____ complex binding affinities measured by EMSA. (A) Binary (mRNA:miR-34a) binding assays showing examples of BCL2, WNT1 and MTA2. (B) Ternary (mRNA:miR-34a-AGO2) binding assays showing examples of BCL2, WNT1, MTA2, and the three control targets PERFECT, SCRseed, and SCRall. The Cy5 labelled species is indicated with asterisk (*). F indicates the free labelled species (miR34a or mRNA), B indicates binary complex, and T indicates ternary complex. Adjacent titrations points differ two-fold in concentration, with maximum concentrations stated at the top right. Adjacent titration points for MTA2 differed three-fold to assess a wider concentration range. In theternary assay, miRNA duplex release from AGO2 was observed for amongst others BCL2, WNT1, PERFECT, and SCRseed (band indicated with B), while it was not observed for SCRall and MTA2. See Figures S3 and S4 for representative gel images for all targets. See Supplementary files 2 and 3 for all images and replicates. (C) Titrations with increasing miR-34a-AGO2 concentration against Cy5-labelled SCRall (left) or PNUTS (right) comparing the absence and presence of 20 μM polyuridine (pU) during equilibration. pU acted as a blocking agent, reducing nonspecific binding, as seen by the different KD,app values for SCRall and PNUTS after addition of 20 μM pU. Therefore, all final mRNA:miR-34a-AGO2 EMSAs were carried out in the presence of 20 μM pU. Labels are as stated above. (D) Individual binding profiles for each of the 12 mRNA targets assessed by electrophoretic mobility assay (EMSA). Each datapoint represents an individual experiment (n=3). Blue represents results for the binary complex, and green represents results for the ternary complex. Dotted horizontal lines represent the KD,app values, which are also stated in blue and green with standard deviations (units = nM). Note that the x-axis spans from 0.1 to 100,000 in CCND1, MTA2 and NOTCH2, whereas the remaining targets span 0.1 to 10,000.

      Some of the data is over-interpreted. For example, in Figure 3A, it is concluded that supplementary regions are more important for weaker seeds. Only two 8-mer seeds are present among the twelve target sites and thus it might be difficult to generalize.

      We have revised our wording to recognise that more 8-mer sites would be required to draw a stronger conclusion based on this hypothesis. This hypothesis would be interesting to confirm in a larger dataset but is unfortunately outside of the scope of this paper.

      Our hypothesis also aligns with recent data from Kosek et al. (NAR 2023; Figure 2D) where SIRT1 with an 8mer and 7mer-A1 seed was compared. Only the 7mer-A1 was sensitive to mutations in the central region or switching all mismatched to WC pairs.

      Page 21 now states:

      "This result indicates that the impact of supplementary binding may be greater for targets with weaker seeds, as has been observed earlier in a mutation study of miR-34a binding to SIRT1 (Kosek et al., 2023), although a larger sample size would be needed to confirm this observation."

      Furthermore, we found the relationship between seed type and the effect of supplementary pairing in our data intriguing. To further investigate this effect, we tested whether it exists in published microarray data from HCT116 cells transfected with six different miRNAs (Linsley et al., 2007; Argawal et al., 2015). Here we found that the for the two miRNAs (miR-103 and miR-106b) where we see an impact of supplementary pairing, the difference is primarily driven by 7mer-m8 seeds. We therefore plan to test whether the effect can be observed for miR-34a in a larger dataset. We have outlined our preliminary data and planned experiments in Section 2 - description of the planned revisions.

      I did not understand why the CIS system shown in 4A is a good test case for miR-34a-target binding. It appears very unnatural and artificial. This needs to be rationalized better. Otherwise it remains questionable, whether these data are meaningful at all.

      Thank you for pointing out the need for clearer rationalisation.

      The TRANS construct, where the scaffold carries the mRNA targeting sequence, provides reactivity information for the mRNA side only, while the microRNA is bound within RISC, with the backbone protected by AGO2. Therefore, to gain information on the miR-34a side of each complex we used the CIS construct, which provides reactivity information from both the miRNA and mRNA. We used the miRNA and mRNA reactivities to calculate all possible secondary structures for the binary complex, and then compared these structures to the mRNA reactivity in TRANS to find which structure fitted the reactivity patterns observed in the ternary complex.

      We have included an additional statement in the manuscript to clarify this point on pages 12-13:

      "Two RNA scaffolds were used for each mRNA target; i) a CIS-scaffold: RNA scaffold containing both mRNA target and miRNA sequence separated by a 10 nucleotide non-interacting closing loop, and ii) a TRANS-scaffold: RNA scaffold containing only the mRNA target sequence, to which free miR-34a or the miR-34a-AGO2 complex was bound (Figure 4A). The CIS constructs therefore provided reactivity information on the miRNA side, which is lacking in the TRANS construct, and was used to complement the TRANS data."

      It may be worthwhile noting that a non-interacting 10 nucleotide loop was inserted between then miRNA and mRNA of the CIS constructs, allowing the miRNA and mRNA strands to bind and release freely. The reactivity patterns of each mRNA:miRNA duplex were compared between CIS and TRANS, and showed similar base pairing (Figure 4D). Furthermore, we have previously compared the two scaffolds in our RABS methodology paper (Banijamali et al. 2022), where no differences were observed besides reduced end fraying in the CIS construct.

      For the TRANS experiments, only one specific scaffold structure is used. This structure might impact binding as well and thus at least one additional and independent scaffold should be selected for a generalized statement.

      For each construct, the potential of interaction with the scaffold was tested using the RNAstructure (Reuter & Mathews, 2010)package. Based on the results of this assessment, two different scaffolds were used for our TRANS experiments. The testing and use of scaffolds has now been clarified further on page 13:

      "The overall conformation of each scaffold with the inserted RNA was assessed using the RNAstructure (Reuter & Mathews, 2010) package to ensure that the sequence of interest did not interact with the scaffold. If any interaction was observed between the RNA of interest and the scaffold, then the scaffold was modified until no predicted interaction occurred. The different scaffolds and their sequence details are shown in supplementary information (Table S1)."

      We have previously examined the scaffold's effect on binding and structure during the development of the RABS method. We tested the same mRNA (SIRT1) in separate, independent scaffolds to verify the consistency of the results. An example of this can be found in the supplementary information (Figure S1a) of Banijamali et al. (2022).

      Generally, it would be nice to have some more information about the experiments also in the result section. Recombinant Ago2 is expressed in insect cells and re-loaded with miR-34a, luciferase reporters are transfected into tissue culture cells, I guess.

      We have now stated the cell types used for AGO2 expression and luciferase reporter assays in the results.

      On page 17 we have included:

      "Samples of each of the 12 mRNA targets, as well as miR-34a and AGO2, were synthesised in-house for biophysical and biological characterisation. Target mRNA constructs were produced via solid-phase synthesis while miR-34a was transcribed in vitro and cleaved from a tandem transcript (Feyrer et al., 2020), ensuring a 5' monophosphate group. AGO2 was produced in Sf9 insect cells."

      "To measure the affinity of each mRNA target binding to miR-34a, both within the binary complex (mRNA:miR-34a) and theternary complex (mRNA:miR-34a-AGO2), we optimised an RNA:RNA binding EMSA protocol to suit small RNA interactions. The protocol is loosely based on Bak et al. (2014)36, with major differences being use of a sodium phosphate buffering system so as not to disturb weaker interactions (James et al., 1996; Stellwagen et al., 2000), supplemented with Mg2+ as a counterion to reduce electrostatic repulsion between the two negatively charged RNAs (Misra & Draper, 1998), and fluorescently labelled probes."

      Page 19:

      " We successfully tested various RNA backgrounds, including polyuridine (pU) and total RNA extract (Figure S6B) to block any unspecific binding. Ultimately, we supplemented our binding buffer with pU at a fixed concentration of 20 µM for the ternary assays to achieve the greatest consistency."

      Page 20:

      "Repression efficacy for the 12 mRNA targets by miR-34a was assessed through a dual luciferase reporter assay6. Target mRNAs were cloned into reporter constructs and transfected into HEK293T cells."

      Page 22:

      "To infer base pairing patterns and secondary structure for each of the 12 mRNA:miR-34a pairs, we used the RABS technique (Banijamali et al., 2023) with 1M7 as a chemical probe. All individual reactivity traces are shown in Figure S9. Reactivity of each of the 22 miR-34a nucleotides was assessed upon binding to each of the 12 mRNA targets within a CIS construct, containing both miR-34a and the mRNA target site separated by a non-interacting 10-nucleotide loop. The two RNAs can therefore bind and release freely within the CIS construct and reactivity information is collected from both RNA strands."

      In the first sentence of the abstract, Argonaute 2 should be replaced by Argonaute only since other members bind to miRNAs as well.

      Thank you for recognising this. It has now been corrected.

      Significance

      This is an interesting manuscript that contributes to our mechanistic understanding of the miRNA-target pairing rules. The combination of affinity measurements, structural probing and luciferase reporters allow for a broad correlation of target binding and repression strength, which is a well-thought and highly conclusive approach. However, there are a number of shortcomings.

      We thank the reviewer for recognising the approach and impact of our work. In addition we thank the reviewer for identifying the need for further data to support our conclusions from the luciferase assays, which is something that we plan to address, as described in section 2.



      Reviewer #2

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      Summary: Sweetapple et al. took the approaches of EMSA, SHAPE, and MD simulations to investigate target recognition by miR-34a in the presence and absence of AGO2. Surprisingly, their EMSA showed that guide unloading occurred even with seed-unpaired targets. Although previous studies reported guide unloading, they used perfectly complementary guide and target sets. The authors of this study concluded that the base-pairing pattern of miR-34a with target RNAs, even without AGO2, can be applicable to understanding target recognition by miR-34a-bound AGO2.

      Major comments:

      (Page 11 and Figure S4) The authors pre-loaded miR-34a into AGO2 and subsequently equilibrated the RISC with a 5' modified Cy5 target mRNA. Since properly loaded miR-34a is never released from AGO2, it is impossible for the miR-34a loaded into AGO2 to form the binary complex (mRNA:miR-34a) in the EMSA (guide unloading has been a long-standing controversy). However, they observed bands of the binary complex in Figure S4. The authors did not use ion-exchange chromatography. AGOs are known to bind RNAs nonspecifically on their positively charged surface. Is it possible that most miR-34a was actually bound to the surface of AGO2 instead of being loaded into the central cleft? This could explain why they observed the bands of the binary complex in EMSA.

      Thank you for mentioning this crucial point which has been a focus of our controls. We have addressed this point in four ways:

      Salt wash during reverse IMAC purification. Separation of unbound RNA and proteins via SEC. Blocking non-specific interactions using polyuridine. Observing both the presence and absence of duplex release among different targets using the same AGO2 preparation and conditions.

      Firstly, although we did not use a specific ion exchange column for purification, we believe the ionic strength used in our IMAC wash step was sufficient to remove non-specific interactions. We used A linear gradient with using buffer A (50 mM Tris-HCl, 300 mM NaCl, 10 mM Imidazole, 1 mM TCEP, 5% glycerol v/v) and buffer B (50 mM Tris-HCl, 500 mM NaCl, 300 mM Imidazole, 1 mM TCEP, 5% glycerol) at pH 8. The protocol followed recommendation by BioRad for their Profinity IMAC resins where it is stated that 300 mM NaCl should be included in buffers to deter nonspecific protein binding due to ionic interactions. The protein itself has a higher affinity for the resin than nucleic acids.

      A commonly used protocol for RISC purification follows the method by Flores-Jasso et al. (RNA 2013). Here, the authors use ion exchange chromatography to remove competitor oligonucleotides. After loading, they washed the column with lysis buffer (30 mM HEPES-KOH at pH 7.4, 100 mM potassium acetate, 2 mM magnesium acetate and 2 mM DTT). AGO was eluted with lysis buffer containing 500 mM potassium acetate. Competing oligonucleotides were eluted in the wash.

      As ionic strength is independent of ion identity or chemical nature of the ion involved (Jerermy M. Berg, John L. Tymoczko, Gregory J. Garret Jr., Biochemistry 2015), we reasoned that our Tris-HCl/NaCl/ imidazole buffer wash should have at comparable ionic strength to the Flores-Jasso protocol.

      Our total ionic contributions were: 500 mM Na+, 550 mM Cl-, 50 mM Tris and 300 mM imidazole. We recognise that Tris and imidazole are both partially ionized according the pH of the buffer (pH 8) and their respective pKa values, but even if only considering the sodium and chloride it should be comparable to the Flores-Jasso protocol.

      We have restated the buffer compositions below written the methods section more explicitly to describe this:

      "Following dialysis, any precipitate was removed by centrifugation, and the resulting supernatant was loaded onto a IMAC buffer A-equilibrated HisTrap-Ni2+ column to remove TEV protease, other proteins, and non-specifically bound RNA. A linear gradient was employed using IMAC buffers A and B."

      Secondly, after reverse HisTrap purification, AGO2 was run through size exclusion chromatography to remove any remaining impurities (shown Figure S2B).

      Thirdly, knowing that AGO2 has many positively charged surface patches and can bind nucleic acid nonspecifically (Nakanishi, 2022; O'Geen et al., 2018), we tested various blocking backgrounds to eliminate nonspecific binding effects in our EMSA ternary binding assays. We were able to address this issue by adding either non-homogenous RNA extract or homogenous polyuridine (pU) in our EMSA buffer during equilibration background experiments. This allowed us to eliminate non-specific binding of our target mRNAs, as shown previously in Supplementary Figure S6. We appreciate that the reviewer finds this technical detail important and have moved the panel C of figure S6 into the main results in Figure 2C, to highlight the novel conditions used and important controls needed to be performed. If miR-34a were non-specifically bound to the surface of AGO2 after washing, this blocking step would render any impact of surface-bound miR-34a negligible due to the excess of competing polyuridine (pU).

      Our EMSA results show that, using polyU, we can reduce non-specific interaction between AGO2 and RNAs that are present. And still, duplex release occurs despite the blocking step. It is therefore less likely that duplex release is caused by surface-bound miR-34a.

      Finally, the observation of distinct duplex release for certain targets, but not for others (e.g. MTA2, which bound tightly to miR-34a-AGO2 but did not exhibit duplex release; see Figure 2), argues against the possibility that the phenomenon was solely due to non-specifically bound RNA releasing from AGO2.

      In response to the reviewers statement "Since properly loaded miR-34a is never released from AGO2, it is impossible for the miR-34a loaded into AGO2 to form the binary complex (mRNA:miR-34a)" we would like to refer to the three papers, De et al. (2013) Jo MH et al. (2015), and Park JH et al. (2017), which have previously reported duplex release and collectively provide considerable evidence that miRNA can be unloaded from AGO in order to promote turnover and recycling of AGO. It is known that AGO recycling must occur, therefore there must be some mechanisms to enable release of miRNA from AGO2 to enable this. It is possible that AGO recycling proceeds via miRNA degradation (TDMD) in the cell, but in the absence of enzymes responsible for oligouridylation and degradation, the miRNA duplex may be released. As TDMD-competent mRNA targets have been observed to release the miRNA 3' tail from AGO2 (Sheu-Gruttadauria et al., 2019; Willkomm et al., 2022), there is a possible mechanistic similarity between the two processes, however, we do not have sufficient data to make any statement on this.

      (Page 18 and Figure S5) Previous studies (De et al., Jo MH et al., Park JH et al.) reported guide unloading when they incubated a RISC with a fully complementary target. However, neither MTA2, CCND1, CD44, nor NOTCH2 can be perfectly paired with miR-34a (Figure 1A). Therefore, the unloading reported in this study is quite different from the previously reported works and thus cannot be explained by the previously reported logic. The authors need to explain the guide unloading mechanism that they observed. Otherwise, they might misinterpret the results of their EMSA and RABS of the ternary complex.

      The three aforementioned studies have reported unloading/duplex release. However, they did not only report fully complementary targets in this process.

      De et al. (2013) reported that "highly complementary target RNAs promote release of guide RNAs from human Argonaute2".

      Subsequently, Park et al. (2017) reported: "Strikingly, we showed that miRNA destabilization is dramatically enhanced by an interaction with seedless, non-canonical targets."

      A figure extracted from Figure 5 of Park et al. is shown below illustrating the occurrence of unloading in the presence of seed mismatches in positions 2 and 3 (mm 2-3). Jo et al. (2015) also reported that binding lifetime was not affected by the number of base pairs in the RNA duplex.

      In addition to these three reports, a methodology paper focusing on miRNA duplex release was published recently titled "Detection of MicroRNAs Released from Argonautes" (Min et al., 2020).

      Therefore, we do believe that the previously observed microRNA release is similar to our observation. Here we also correlate it to structure and stability of the complex.

      (Page 20) The authors reported, "it is notable that the seed region binding does not appear to be necessary for duplex release." The crystal structures of AGO2 visualize that the seed of the guide RNA is recognized, whereas the rest is not, except for the 3' end captured by the PAZ domain. How do the authors explain the discrepancy?

      In this manuscript, we intend to present our observations of duplex release. There are many potential relationships between duplex release and AGO2 activity, which we do not have data to speculate upon. Previous studies, such as Park et al. (2017) have also observed non-canonical and seedless targets leading to duplex release, supporting our findings. Additionally, other publications including McGearly et al. (2019) report 3'-only miRNA targets, Lal et al. (2009) have documented seedless binding by miRNA and their downstream biological effects, and Duan et al. (2022) show that a large number of let-7a targets are regulated through 3′ non-seed pairing.

      It is also possible that duplex release is not coupled to classical repression outcomes, and does not need to proceed by the seed, but instead regulates AGO2 recycling before AGO2 enters the quality control mode of recognising the formed seed.

      (Pages 22) The authors mentioned, "It follows that the structure imparted via direct RNA:RNA interaction remains intact within AGO2, highlighting the role of RNA as the structural determinant." A free guide and a target can start their annealing from any nucleotide position. In contrast, a guide loaded into AGO needs to start annealing with targets through the seed region. Additionally, the Zamore group reported that the loaded guide RNA behaves quite differently from its free state (Wee et al., Cell 2012). How do the authors explain the discrepancy?

      The key point we would like to emphasise is that AGO does not seem to alter the underlying RNA:RNA interactions. The bound state in the ternary complex reflects the structure established in the binary complex. We do not aim to claim a specific sequence of events, as this interpretation is not possible from our equilibrium data. Our data indicates that the protein is flexible enough to accommodate the RNA structure that is favoured in the binary complex. This hypothesis is further supported by our MD simulation, which demonstrates the accommodation of a miRNA-bulge structure within AGO2.

      Targets lacking seeds have been identified previously (McGeary et al. 2019, Park et al. 2017, Lal et al. 2009) and can bind to miRNA within AGO. Therefore, there must be a mechanism by which these targets can anneal within AGO, such as via sequence-independent interactions (as discussed in question 3).

      With respect to Wee et al., (2012), which studied fly and mouse AGO2 and found considerable differences between the thermodynamic and kinetic properties of the two AGO2 species. Furthermore, they found different average affinities between the two species, with the fly AGO binding tighter the mouse. Following this logic, it is not unexpected that human AGO2 would have unique properties compared to those of fly and mouse.

      Below is an extract from Wee et al., (2012):

      "Our KM data and published Argonaute structures (Wang et al., 2009) suggest that 16-17 base pairs form between the guide and the target RNAs, yet the binding affinity of fly Ago2-RISC (KD = 3.7 {plus minus} 0.9 pM, mean {plus minus} S.D.) and mouse AGO2-RISC (KD = 20 {plus minus} 10 pM, mean {plus minus} S.D.) for a fully complementary target was comparable to that of a 10 bp RNA:RNA helix. Thus, Argonaute functions to weaken the binding of the 21 nt siRNA to its fully complementary target: without the protein, the siRNA, base paired from positions g2 to g17, is predicted to have a KD ∼3.0 × 10−11 pM (ΔG25{degree sign}C = −30.7 kcal mol−1). Argonaute raises the KD of the 16 bp RNA:RNA hybrid by a factor of > 1011."

      In the Wee et al. (2012) paper, affinity data on mouse and fly AGO2 was collected via filter binding assays, using a phosphorothioate linkage flanked by 2′-O-methyl ribose at positions 10 and 11 of the target to prevent cleavage. They then compared the experimentally determined mean KD and ΔG values for each species to predicted values of an RNA:RNA helix of 16-17 base-pairs. No comparison was made between individual targets, and no experimental data was collected for the RNA:RNA binding. The calculated energy values were made based on a simple helix without taking into account any possible secondary structure features. Considering the different AGO species, alternative experimental setup, modified nucleotides in the tested RNA, and the computationally predicted RNA values compared to the averaged experimental values, we believe there is considerable reason to observe differences compared to our findings.

      We have expanded our discussion on page 27 to the following:

      "An earlier examination of mRNA:miRNA binding thermodynamics by Wee and colleagues (2012) found that mouse and fly AGO2 reduce the affinity of a guide RNA for its target61. Our data indicate that the range of miR-34a binary complex affinities is instead constricted by human AGO2 in the ternary complex - strengthening weak binders while weakening strong binders. The 2012 study reported different average affinities between the two AGO2 species, with the fly protein binding tighter the mouse. Following this logic, it is not unexpected that human AGO2 would have unique properties compared to those of fly and mouse."

      The authors concluded that the range of binary complex affinities is constricted by human AGO2 in the ternary complex - strengthening weak binders while weakening strong binders. This may hold true for miR-34a, but it cannot be generalized. Other miRNAs need to be tested.

      That is true, we have now adjusted the wording to encompass this more clearly, shown below. Testing of further miRNAs is the likely content of future work from us and others.

      "Our data indicate that the range of miR-34a binary complex affinities is instead constricted by human AGO2 in the ternary complex - strengthening weak binders while weakening strong binders."

      Minor comments:

      (Figure S2) Why was the 34-nt 3'Cy3-labeled miR34a complementary probe shifted up in the presence of AGO?

      We believe this observation is also indicative of duplex release. At the time that these activity assays were collected, we were not as aware of the presence of duplex release so did not test it further, assuming it may be due to transient interactions. We plan to investigate this via EMSA and have included this in the planned revisions (section 2).

      2.(Page 17) Does the Cy3 affect the interaction of the 3' end of miR-34 with AGO2?

      miR-34a-3'Cy5 was used for binary experiments only and the reverse experiment was conducted as a control (where Cy5 was located on the mRNA) (Figure S3b), showing no change in affinity/interaction when the probe was switched to the target. For ternary experiments the mRNA target was labelled on the 5' terminus, to make sure there was no interference with loading miR-34a into AGO2.

      A Cy3 labelled RNA probe (fully complementary to miR-34a) was used to detect miR-34a in northern blots, but AGO2 interaction is not relevant here under denaturing conditions.

      Otherwise, the 34-nt slicing probe had Cy3 on the 5 nt 3' overhang and should therefore not interact with AGO.

      1. Several groups reported that overproduced AGOs loaded endogenous small RNAs. The authors should mention that their purified AGO2 was not as pure as a RISC with miR-34a. Otherwise, readers might think that the authors used a specific RISC.

      We have now improved our explanation of the loading efficiency to make it more clear to the reader that our AGO2 sample was not fully bound by miR-34a, and that all concentrations refer to the miR-34a-loaded portion of AGO2. The following text can be found in the results on page 18:

      "The mRNA:miR-34a-AGO2 assay had a limited titration range, reaching a maximum miR-34a-AGO2 concentration of 268 nM due to a 5% loading efficiency (see Figure S2D for loading efficiency quantification). The total AGO2 concentration was thus 20-fold higher than the miR-34a-loaded portion. Further increase in protein concentration was prevented by precipitation. Weaker mRNA targets (CD44, CCND1, and NOTCH2) did not reach a saturated binding plateau within this range, leading to larger errors in their estimated KD,app values. However, reasonable estimation of the KD,app was possible by monitoring the disappearance of the free mRNA probe. Note that we refer to the miR-34a-loaded portion of AGO2 when discussing concentration values for all titration ranges. To ensure AGO2 binding specificity despite low loading efficiency, a scrambled control was used (SCRall; lacking stable base pairing with miR-34a or other human miRNAs according to the miRBase database57). SCRall showed no interaction with miR-34a-AGO2 (Figure 2B)."

      (Figure legend of Figure S5) Binding was assessed "by."

      Thank you for pointing this out, it is now fixed.

      (Page 17) It would be great if the authors could even briefly describe the mechanism by which the sodium phosphate buffer with magnesium does not disturb weaker interactions by citing reference papers.

      We have now added a supplementary methods section to our manuscript and included the description below on page 10:

      "We found that a more traditional Tris-borate-EDTA (TBE) buffer disrupted weaker RNA:RNA binding interactions (Supplementary Methods Figure M1). Borate anions form stable adducts with carbohydrate hydroxyl groups (James et al., 1996) and can form complexes with nucleic acids, likely through amino groups in nucleic bases or oxygen in phosphate groups (Stellwagen et al., 2000). This makes TBE unsuitable for assessment of RNA binding, particularly involving small RNA molecules, which typically have weaker affinities. We therefore adapted our buffer system to a sodium phosphate buffer supplemented with magnesium. Magnesium acts as a counterion to reduce electrostatic repulsion between the two negatively charged backbones by neutralisation (Misra et al., 1998)."

      We have also clarified the buffer adaptions in our results section on page 17:

      The protocol is loosely based on Bak et al. (2014)36, with major differences being use of a sodium phosphate buffering system so as not to disturb weaker interactions(James et al., 1996; Stellwagen et al., 2000), supplemented with Mg2+ as a counterion to reduce electrostatic repulsion between the two negatively charged RNAs(Misra & Draper, 1998), and fluorescently labelled probes. Original gel images and quantification are shown in supplementary Figures S3 and S4. All KD,app values are shown in Supplementary Table 1, and represent the mean of three independent replicates.

      Figure M1. Comparison of Tris-borate EDTA (TBE) and sodium phosphate with magnesium (NaP-Mg2+) buffer systems for EMSA. Cy5-labelled miR-34a and unlabelled CD44 were equilibrated in the two different buffer systems, using the same titration range. No mobility shifts were observed in the TBE system, while clear binding shifts were observed in the NaP-Mg2+ system.

      6.(Page 22) The authors cited Figure 4C in the sentence, "Comparison between CIS and TRANS ..." Is this supposed to be Figure 4D?

      The reviewer was correct in their assumption, and this has now been corrected.

      7.(Figure 6) Readers would appreciate it if the guide and target were colored in red and blue. The color codes have been used in most papers reporting AGO structures. The current color codes are opposite.

      We have now adjusted the colour schemes throughout the manuscript, and Figure 6 has been modified to the following:

      __"Figure 6. The miRNA-bulge structure is readily accommodated by AGO2 as shown by molecular dynamics simulation. __Panel (A) displays a snapshot of the all-atom MD simulation of miR-34a (red) and NOTCH1 (blue) in AGO2. The NOTCH1:miR-34a duplex is shown with AGO2 removed for clarity and is rotated 90{degree sign} to show the miRNA bulge and bend in the duplex. This NOTCH1:miR-34a-AGO2 structure is compared with (B), which shows the crystal structure of miR-122 (orange) paired with its target (purple) via the seed and four nucleotides in the supplementary region (PDB-ID 6N4O17), and (C), which shows the crystal structure of miR-122 (orange) and its target (green) with extended 3' pairing, necessary for the TDMD-competent state (PDB-ID 6NIT19). AGO2 is depicted in grey, with the PAZ domain in green, and the N-terminal domain marked with N. The miRNA duplexes in (B) and (C) feature symmetrical 4-nucleotide internal loops, whereas the NOTCH1 structure in (A) has an asymmetrical miRNA bulge with five unpaired nucleotides on the miRNA side and a 3-nucleotide asymmetry."

      Significance

      This paper will have a significant impact on the field if seed-unpaired targets can indeed unload guide RNAs. The authors may want to validate their results very carefully.

      We thank the reviewer for recognising the significance of duplex release (or guide unloading) from AGO2. We agree that the observations should be tested rigorously and have outlined the actions we took to ensure validity in our AGO2 preparation.

      __Reviewer #3 __

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required):

      In this manuscript, the authors use a combination of biochemical, biophysical, and computational approaches to investigate the structure-function relationship of miRNA binding sites. Interestingly, they find that AGO2 weakens tight RNA:RNA binding interactions, and strengthens weaker interactions.

      Given this antagonistic role, I wonder: shouldn't there be an 'average' final binding affinity? Furthermore, if I understand correctly, not many trends were observed to correlate binding affinity with repression, etc.

      Overall, there was no 'average' final binding affinity observed, as the binary assays had a much higher maximum (NOTCH2binary affinity was within the micromolar range) skewing the mean average of the binary affinities to 657 nM, versus 111 nM for the ternary affinities. We also compare the variances of the binary and ternary affinity datasets using the F-test and found that F > F(critical one tail) and thus the variation of the two populations is unequal (binary variation is significantly larger than ternary).

      F-Test Two-Sample for Variances

      • *

      binary affinity

      ternary affinity

      Mean

      657.3

      110.971667

      Variance

      2971596.1

      24406.4012

      Observations

      12

      12

      df

      11

      11

      F

      121.754784

      P(F

      7.559E-10

      F(critical one-tail)

      2.81793047

      We agree that the overall correlation between affinity and repression was not strong, although we found a stronger correlation within the miRNA-bulge group (Figure 5C and S7C). A larger sample size of miRNA bulge-forming duplexes would be needed to test the generalizability of this observation.

      Given the context of the study - whereby structure is being investigated as a contributing factor to the interaction between the miRNA and mRNA, I find it interesting that the authors chose to use MC-fold to predict the structures of the mRNA, rather than using an experimental approach to assess / validate the structures. Thirty-seven RNAs were assessed; I think even for a subset (the 12 that were focused on in the study), the secondary structure should be validated experimentally (e.g., by chemical probing experiments, which the research group has demonstrated expertise in over the last several years). The validation should follow the in silico folding approach used to narrow down the region of interest. It is necessary to know whether an energy barrier (associated with the mRNA unfolding) has to occur prior to miRNA binding; this could help explain some of the unexplained results in the study. Indeed, the authors mention that there are many variables that influence miRNA regulation.

      Indeed, experimentally validated structures offer valuable insights that cannot be obtained solely through sequence-based predictions. This is why we opted to employ our RABS method to experimentally evaluate the binary and ternary complex binding of our 12 selected targets (as depicted in Figures 4 and S9 and discussed in the text on pages 23-24). While we (in silico) assessed all 37 RNA targets that were experimentally confirmed at the time, selecting 12 to represent both biological and predicted structural diversity, it would have been impractical to experimentally pre-assess all the targets not included in the final selection. Our in-silico assessment was designed to narrow down the regions of interest and evaluate predicted secondary structures present. The pipeline is shown in Figure 1. Details of the code used in the in-silico analysis are provided in Supplementary File 1.

      Regarding the energy of unfolding of mRNA, our constructs considered the isolated binding sites thus the effects of surrounding mRNA interactions were removed. We compared our affinities to dG as well as MFE and have now included this analysis in Figure S8A. Additionally, we have included the text on page 27-28 of the discussion:

      "Gibbs free energy (G), which is often included in targeting prediction models as a measure of stability of the miRNA:mRNA pair12,62, correlated with the log of our binary KD,app values, using ΔG values predicted by RNAcofold (R2 = 0.61). There was a weaker correlation with the free energy values derived from the minimum free energy (MFE) structures predicted by RNAcofold (R2 = 0.41) (Figure S8A). This result highlights the contribution of unfolding (in ΔG) as being an important in predicting KD. The differences between ΔG and KD,app are likely primarily due to inaccurately predicted structures used for energy calculations."

      Additionally, we assessed the free form of all mRNA targets via RABS (Figure S9) and observed that the seed of each free mRNA was available for miRNA binding (seeds of the free mRNA were not stably bound).

      Finally, when designing our luciferase plasmids we used RNAstructure (Reuter & Mathews, 2010) to check for self-folding effects which could interfere with target site binding and ensured that all plasmids were void of such effects.

      In the methods, T7 is italicized by accident in the T7 in vitro transcription section. Bacmid is sometimes written with a capital B and other times with a lower-cased b. The authors should be consistent. The concentration of TEV protease that was added (as opposed to the volume) should be described for reproducibility.

      Thank you for pointing out these overlooked points. They have now been corrected.

      In figure S2D, what is the second species in the gel on the right-hand side of the gel in the miR-34a:AGO lanes? The authors should mention this.

      We believe that the faint upper band corresponds to other longer RNA species loaded into AGO2. As AGO2 is loaded with a diversity of RNA species, it is likely that some of them may have a weak affinity for the miR-34a-complementary probe, and therefore show up on the northern blot.

      Figure S3B and S3A are referenced out of order in the text. In regard to S3A, what are the anticipated or hypothesized alternative conformations for NOTCH1, DLL1, and MTA2? There are really interesting things going on in the gels, also for HNF4a and NOTCH2. Can the authors offer some explanation for why the free RNA bands don't seem to disappear, but rather migrate slowly? Is this a new species?

      The order of the figure references have now been updated, thank you for alerting us to this.

      Figure S3A: For MTA2, the two alternative conformations are shown in Figure S9 and S10 (and shown below here, miR-34aseed marked in pink). It appears that a single conformation is favoured at high concentration (> 1 µM) while the two conformations are present at {less than or equal to} 1 µM. The RABS data for MTA2 also indicated multiple binding conformations, as the reactivity traces were inconsistent. We expect that the conformation shown on the left was most dominant within AGO2, based on the reactivity of the TRANS + AGO assays. However, we cannot exclude a possible G-quadruplex formation due to the high G content of MTA2 (shown below right).

      Regarding NOTCH1 and DLL1, a faint fluorescent shadow was observed beneath the miR-34a bound band. The RABS reactivity traces indicated a single dominant conformation for these targets, so it is possible that the lower shadow observed was due to more subtle differences in conformation, such as the opening/closing of one or a few base pairs at the terminus or bulge, (i.e. end fraying). HNF4α and NOTCH2 appear to never fully saturate the miR-34a, so a small un-bound population remains visible on the gel. For NOTCH2 this free miR-34a band appears to migrate upwards, possibly due to overloading the gel lane with excess NOTCH2 (which are not observed in the Cy5 fluorescence image).

      In the EMSA for Perfect, why does the band intensity for the bound complex increase then decrease? How many replicates were run for this? This needs to be reconciled.

      As for all EMSAs, three replicates were carried out for each mRNA target and all gels are shown in Supplementary Files 2 and 3, for the binary and ternary assays respectively.

      Uneven heat distribution across the gel can lead to bleaching of the Cy5 fluorophore. To address this, we we used a circulating cooler in our electrophoresis tank, as outlined in our methods (page 10). However, the aforementioned gel for one of thePERFECT sample replicates appears to have been evenly cooled. As the binding ratio (rather than total band volume) was used for quantification, the binding curve was unaffected, and this did not influence KD,app.

      We have now replaced the exemplary gel for PERFECT in Figure S3 with a more representative and evenly labelled gel from our replicates (Cy5 fluorescence image shown below). The binding curve for PERFECT is also shown here:

      The authors list that the RNA concentration was held constant at 10 nM; in EMSAs, the RNA concentration should be less than the binding affinity; what is the lowest concentration of protein used in the assays shown in S3A? Is this a serial dilution? It seems to me like the binding assays for MTA2, Perfect, and SRCseed might have too high of an RNA concentration. (Actually, now I see in the supplement the concentrations of proteins, and the RNA concentration is too high). Also, why is the intensity of bands for bound complex for SRCseed more intense than the free RNA?

      Why are the binding affinity error bars so large (e.g., for NOTCH2 with mir-34a) - 6 uM +/- 3 uM?

      No protein was used in the binary assays shown in Figure S3A. For the ternary assays in Figure S4, the maximum concentration of miR-34a-loaded AGO2 (miR-34a-AGO2) was 268 nM, with a serial dilution down to a minimum of 0.06 nM.

      Optimal EMSA conditions require a constant RNA concentration that is lower than the binding affinity to accurately estimate high-affinity interactions.

      For our tightest binders, such as SIRT1, we can confidently state that the KD,app is less than 10 nM, estimated at 0.4 {plus minus} 1.1 nM. Therefore, the accuracy of this estimation is reduced, and the standard deviation is larger than the estimated KD,app. As NOTCH2 bound miR-34a very weakly and did not reach a fully bound plateau, the resulting high error was expected. Consequently, we do not have the same level of certainty for extremely tight or weak binders. In this study, the relative affinities were of primary importance.

      We have included on page 18:

      As the Cy5-miR-34a concentration was fixed to 10 nM to give sufficient signal during detection, KD,app values below 10 nM have a lower confidence.

      Regarding the control samples PERFECT and SCRseed, our focus was not on determining the exact KD,app of these artificial constructs. Instead, we were primarily interested in whether they exhibited binding and under which conditions. For SCRseed, we neither adjusted the titration range nor calculated KD,app. For PERFECT, the concentration was adjusted to a lower range of 30 nM - 0.001 nM to give a relative comparison with the other tight binder SIRT1. However, further reduction in RNA concentration was not pursued, as it already fell well below the 10 nM sensitivity threshold.

      Regarding the intensity of the bound SCRseed band, we observed that the bound fluorophore often resulted in stronger intensity than for the free probe. This was observed for a number of the samples (PERFECT, BLC2, SCRseed). A previous publication reported that Cy5 is sequence dependent in DNA, that the effect is more sensitive to double-stranded DNA, and that the fluorophore is sensitive to the surrounding 5 base pairs (Kretschy, Sack and Somoza, 2016). It is likely that the same phenonenon exists in RNA.

      For MTA2, the two alternative conformations (shown in Figure S9 and S10) make assessment of KD,app more difficult. As the higher affinity conformation did not reach a fully-bound plateau before the weaker affinity conformation appeared, the binding curve plateau (where all miR-34a was bound) reflected the weaker conformation KD,app. We increased the range of titration tested by using a three-fold serial dilution, but further reduction in RNA concentration would not have been fruitful as it already dropped below well below the 10 nM sensitivity range. Therefore the MTA2 binary complex had a higher error at (944 {plus minus} 274 nM) and lower confidence.

      We then decided to run a competition assay to detect the weaker KD,app of MTA2. The assay was set up using the known binding affinity of CD44, which was labelled with Cy5 to track the reaction. MTA2 was titrated against a constant concentration of Cy5-CD44:miR-34a, and disruption of the CD44 and miR-34a binding was monitored. We fitted the data to a quadratic for competitive binding (Cheng and Prusoff., 1973) to calculate the KD,app for competitive binding, or KC,app.

      We validated our competition assay by comparing it with our direct binding assays, specifically assessing CD44 in a self-competition assay. The CD44 KC,app (168 {plus minus} 24 nM; mean and SD of three replicates) was found to be consistent with the KD,app obtained from the direct assay (165 {plus minus} 21 nM).

      As we wanted all affinity data to be directly comparable (using the same methodology), we compared the KD,app values obtained via direct assay in the manuscript. It appears that the competitive EMSA assay for MTA2 reflects the weaker affinity conformation observed in the direct assay.

      It would be very helpful if the authors wrote in the Kds in Figure 2A in green and blue (in the extra space in the plots). This would help the reader to better understand what's going on, and for me, as a reviewer, to better consider the analysis/conclusions presented by the authors.

      KD,app values are written in in green and blue in what is now Figure 2D (originally Figure 2A).

      The authors state on page 18 that 'Interestingly, however, we did not observe a correlation between binary or ternary complex affinity and seed type.' They should elaborate on why this is interesting.

      The prevailing view is that the miRNA seed type significantly influences affinity within AGO2. The largest biochemical studies of miRNA-target interactions to date, conducted by McGeary et al. (2019, 2022), used AGO-RBNS (RNA Bind-n-Seq) to reveal relative binding affinities. These studies demonstrated strong correlations between the canonical seed types and binding affinity. Therefore, we find it interesting that no such correlation was observed in our dataset (despite its small size).

      We have now added to the manuscript (page 20):

      "The largest biochemical studies of miRNA-target interactions to date (McGeary et al., 2019, 2022) used AGO-RBNS (RNA Bind-n-Seq) to extract relative binding affinities, demonstrating strong correlations between the canonical seed types and binding affinity. Therefore, it is intriguing that our dataset, despite its small size, showed no such correlation."

      Figure 2C is not referenced in the text (the authors should go back through the text to make sure everything is referenced and in order). The Kds should be listed alongside the gels in Figure 2C.

      Figure 2 has now been rearranged and updated, with KD,app values listed in what is now Figure 2D.

      Figure 3B is rather confusing to understand.

      We have now adapted Figure 3 to simplify readability. Panel B has now been moved to C, and we have introduced panel A (moved from Figure 2B). In Figure 3C (originally 3B) we have added arrows to indicate the direction of affinity change from binary to ternary complex, and moved the duplex release information to panel A. We thank the reviewer and think that the data is now much clearer.

      Figure 3. AGO2 moderates affinity by strengthening weak binders and weakening strong binders. (A) Correlation of relative mRNA:miR-34a with mRNA:miR-34aAGO2 binding affinities. No seed type correlation is observed, seeds coloured, where 8mer is pink, 7mer-m8 is turquoise, and 7-mer-A1 is mauve. The slope of the linear fit is 0.48, and intercept on the (log y)-axis is 7.11. The occurrence of miRNA duplex release from AGO2 is marked with diamonds. (B) miR-34a-mediated repression of dual luciferase reporters fused to the 12 mRNA targeting sites. Luciferase activity from HEK293T cells co-transfected with each reporter construct, miR-34a was measured 24 hours following transfection and normalised to the miR-34a-negative transfection control. Each datapoint represents the R/F ratio for an independent experiment (n=3) with standard deviations indicated. SCRseed is a scrambled seed control, SCRall is a fully scrambled control, and PERFECT is the perfect complement of miR-34a. Dotted horizontal lines represent the repression values for the 22-nucleotide seed-only controls6 for the respective seed types, in the absence of any other WC base pairing. (C) Comparison of relative target repression with relative affinity assessed by EMSA. Blue represents mRNA:miR-34a affinity (binary complex), while green represents mRNA:miR-34a-AGO2 affinity (ternary complex). Arrows indicate the direction of change in affinity upon binding within AGO2 compared to the binary complex. It is seen that AGO2 moderates affinity bi-directionally by strengthening weak binders and weakening strong binders.

      Page 20: Perfect should be italicized.

      Thank you for bringing this to our attention, this how now been adjusted.

      Have the authors considered using NMR to assess the base pair pattern formed between the miRNA:mRNA complexes (with / without AGO)? As a validation for results obtained by RABS? This could be helpful for the Asymmetric target binding section, the Ago increases flexibility section, and the three distinct structural groups section in the results. It is widely accepted that while chemical probing is insightful, results should be validated using alternative approaches. Distinguishing structural changes and protected reactivity in the presence of protein is challenging.

      NMR provides high-resolution information on RNA base-pairing patterns, allowing us to compare our RABS results for SIRT1with those obtained via NMR (Banijamali et al., 2022) for the binary complex. For SIRT1, the RNA:RNA structures identified were consistent between both methods. However, using NMR to measure RNA:RNA binding within AGO2 is challenging due to the protein's large size. Currently, there are no published complete NMR structures of RNA within AGO2. The largest solution-state NMR structures published that include AGO consist solely of the PAZ domain. Our group has been working on method development using DNP-enhanced solid-state NMR to obtain structural information within the complete AGO2 protein, but the current resolution does not allow us to fully reconstruct a complete NMR structure. We hope that in the coming years, this will be a method to evaluate RNA within AGO. This limitation highlights the advantage of RABS in providing RNA base-pairing information within the ternary complex in solution.

      Reviewer #3 (Significance (Required)):

      The work is helpful for understanding how microRNAs recognize and bind their mRNA targets, and the impact Ago has on this interaction. I think for therapeutic studies, this will be helpful for structure-based design. Especially given the three types of structures identified to be a part of the interaction.

      We thank the reviewer for their detailed remarks, especially concerning the importance of technical details the binding assays. We further thank the reviewer for recognising the potential impact of our work for rational design.

      4. Description of analyses that authors prefer not to carry out

      • *

      In response to Reviewer 2 - major comment 1, we prefer to not run an additional ion exchange purification on the AGO2 protein due to the reasoning discussed above, which is repeated here:

      We have addressed this point in three ways:

      Thank you for mentioning this crucial point which has been a focus of our controls. We have addressed this point in four ways:

      Salt wash during reverse IMAC purification. Separation of unbound RNA and proteins via SEC. Blocking non-specific interactions using polyuridine. Observing both the presence and absence of duplex release among different targets using the same AGO2 preparation and conditions.

      Firstly, although we did not use a specific ion exchange column for purification, we believe the ionic strength used in our IMAC wash step was sufficient to remove non-specific interactions. We used A linear gradient with using buffer A (50 mM Tris-HCl, 300 mM NaCl, 10 mM Imidazole, 1 mM TCEP, 5% glycerol v/v) and buffer B (50 mM Tris-HCl, 500 mM NaCl, 300 mM Imidazole, 1 mM TCEP, 5% glycerol) at pH 8. The protocol followed recommendation by BioRad for their Profinity IMAC resins where it is stated that 300 mM NaCl should be included in buffers to deter nonspecific protein binding due to ionic interactions. The protein itself has a higher affinity for the resin than nucleic acids.

      A commonly used protocol for RISC purification follows the method by Flores-Jasso et al. (RNA 2013). Here, the authors use ion exchange chromatography to remove competitor oligonucleotides. After loading, they washed the column with lysis buffer (30 mM HEPES-KOH at pH 7.4, 100 mM potassium acetate, 2 mM magnesium acetate and 2 mM DTT). AGO was eluted with lysis buffer containing 500 mM potassium acetate. Competing oligonucleotides were eluted in the wash.

      As ionic strength is independent of ion identity or chemical nature of the ion involved (Jerermy M. Berg, John L. Tymoczko, Gregory J. Garret Jr., Biochemistry 2015), we reasoned that our Tris-HCl/NaCl/ imidazole buffer wash should have at comparable ionic strength to the Flores-Jasso protocol.

      Our total ionic contributions were: 500 mM Na+, 550 mM Cl-, 50 mM Tris and 300 mM imidazole. We recognise that Tris and imidazole are both partially ionized according the pH of the buffer (pH 8) and their respective pKa values, but even if only considering the sodium and chloride it should be comparable to the Flores-Jasso protocol.

      Secondly, after reverse HisTrap purification, AGO2 was run through size exclusion chromatography to remove any remaining impurities (shown Figure S2B).

      Thirdly, knowing that AGO2 has many positively charged surface patches and can bind nucleic acid nonspecifically (Nakanishi, 2022; O'Geen et al., 2018), we tested various blocking backgrounds to eliminate nonspecific binding effects in our EMSA ternary binding assays. We were able to address this issue by adding either non-homogenous RNA extract or homogenous polyuridine (pU) in our EMSA buffer during equilibration background experiments. This allowed us to eliminate non-specific binding of our target mRNAs, as shown previously in Supplementary Figure S6. We appreciate that the reviewer finds this technical detail important and have moved the panel C of figure S6 into the main results in Figure 2C, to highlight the novel conditions used and important controls needed to be performed. If miR-34a were non-specifically bound to the surface of AGO2 after washing, this blocking step would render any impact of surface-bound miR-34a negligible due to the excess of competing polyuridine (pU).

      Our EMSA results show that, using polyU, we can reduce non-specific interaction between AGO2 and RNAs that are present. And still, duplex release occurs despite the blocking step. It is therefore less likely that duplex release is caused by surface-bound miR-34a.

      Finally, the observation of distinct duplex release for certain targets, but not for others (e.g. MTA2, which bound tightly to miR-34a-AGO2 but did not exhibit duplex release; see Figure 2), argues against the possibility that the phenomenon was solely due to non-specifically bound RNA releasing from AGO2.

      In response to the reviewers statement "Since properly loaded miR-34a is never released from AGO2, it is impossible for the miR-34a loaded into AGO2 to form the binary complex (mRNA:miR-34a)" we would like to refer to the three papers, De et al. (2013) Jo MH et al. (2015), and Park JH et al. (2017), which have previously reported duplex release and collectively provide considerable evidence that miRNA can be unloaded from AGO in order to promote turnover and recycling of AGO. It is known that AGO recycling must occur, therefore there must be some mechanisms to enable release of miRNA from AGO2 to enable this. It is possible that AGO recycling proceeds via miRNA degradation (TDMD) in the cell, but in the absence of enzymes responsible for oligouridylation and degradation, the miRNA duplex may be released. As TDMD-competent mRNA targets have been observed to release the miRNA 3' tail from AGO2 (Sheu-Gruttadauria et al., 2019; Willkomm et al., 2022), there is a possible mechanistic similarity between the two processes, however, we do not have sufficient data to make any statement on this.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      We provide below a point-by-point reply to the Reviewers, and hope that our new manuscript will now meet the Reviewers’ concerns and the requirements for publication in eLife. 

      In summary, we have performed a new set of mouse humanization experiments using a new cohort of 4 additional HLA-DRB1*15-typed MS patients as donors, all presenting with highly active disease and under treatment with natalizumab. The new experiments aim to strengthen and further extend the findings of the original paper that HLA restriction rather than disease status plays an important role in the development of CNS inflammation. Additionally, we performed EAE using a revised protocol using lower amounts of peptide antigens to reduce the possibility of immune tolerance. Indeed, our original observations were further enriched with the finding that immunization increases infiltration of the CNS by human CD4 T cells, a finding consistent with EAE pathology, and that these human CD4 T cells co-localize with human CD8 T cells in the brain lesions. Further, we provide more detailed information concerning the EBV infection status of the PBMC donors used for humanization and find some first indications of relationships between the B cell engraftment in humanized mice, EBV status  of the donors and the development of brain lesions that might stimulate further investigation in future studies.   

      Point-by-point reply to reviewers:

      Reviewer 1:

      We thank Reviewer 1 for their valuable comments, and for their support of the overall approach as a model system. We have addressed the comments by providing additional requested information, as well as performing a EAE with a revised protocol, as suggested. We believe the new results significantly upgrades the information gained from this study.

      (1) Throughout their paper, the authors never quantify the difference in CD4 vs CD8 T cell infiltration into the CNS. While repeatedly claiming that there are fewer CD4 T cells present than CD8 T cells within the CNS, this data is not included. Further, spinal cord numbers of CD4 and CD8 are not provided in lieu of CD3 T cell characterization.

      Reply: We have now included quantitative data for the differences in CD4 vs CD8 T cells in the brain and spinal cord of non-immunized and EAE immunized mice. Thus, in brain (Fig. 2E) and spinal cord (Fig. 3D) of non-immunized mice, and brain (Fig. 4D, E, L) and spinal cord (Fig. 5D) of immunized mice we show data for numbers of hCD8 and hCD4 T cells, and ratios of CD4 to CD8 in at borders and parenchyma. Notably, using a revised EAE protocol in the second set of experiments, we observed a marked increase in hCD4 T cell infiltration at the CNS borders and parenchyma, an observation consistent with successful EAE immunization.

      B cells don't make up any significant component of the cells transferred from HLA-DR15 donors. While the cells transferred from the HLA-DR13 donor are composed of a considerable number of B cells, the mice that received these cells didn't develop any signs of neurologic disease.

      In the second experiment using new DR15 MS donors, we observed significant B cell engraftment also in several groups of DR15 MS mice. With the additional groups of mice, we were able to see a relationship between B cell engraftment in DR13 and DR15 MS mice with indicators of recent or ongoing reactivation of EBV. This is an interesting preliminary observation that might be tested in future larger studies. 

      (2) Incomplete exploration of potential experimental autoimmune encephalomyelitis (EAE) modeling. Comparison of the susceptibility of B2m-NOG mice to EAE dependent on various peptide doses would be highly informative. Given that the number of hCD45+ in the periphery of NOG mice decreases following this immunization it would be prudent for the authors to determine if such a high peptide dose is truly ideal for EAE development in this mouse model.

      Reply: We thank the reviewer for this critical comment. In the second group of experiments (DR15 MS2-5), we revised the EAE protocol to use lower amounts of peptides in a single immunization, thereby greatly reducing the exposure of human T cells to antigen and risk of tolerance/anergy. This resulted in (i), by-pass of the reduction in proportions of peripheral hCD45 cells following immunization in the peripheral blood (Fig. 1A), and (ii), increased numbers of hCD4 T cells and hCD4/hCD8 T cell ratios at the borders and infiltrating the parenchyma of brain (Fig. 4D,E) and spinal cord (Fig. 5D). 

      (3) The degree of myelin injury is not presented. The statement is repeatedly made that "demyelination was not observed in the brain or spinal cord" but no quantification of myelin staining is shown.  

      Reply: The reviewer refers to a pivotal feature (and limitation) of this particular humanized model. Despite significant T cell infiltration of white and grey matter regions of brain and spinal cord, there is no detectable demyelination. This has also been reported by in independent study using a similar humanized system (Zayoud et al., 2013). We have supplemented the figures with photomicrographs showing the presence of unperturbed myelin in the corpus callosum white T cell lesions (Fig. 4F, inset stained with Luxol fast blue), and a confocal micrograph in the same region double-immunostained for hCD45 immune cells and MBP (Fig. 4G). 

      Minor points:

      Method of quantification (e.g. cells per brain slice in figures 2E; 4E) is not very quantitative and should be justified or more appropriately updated to be more rigorous in methodology.

      Reply: In the new figures, we have changed the method of quantification of brain parenchyma infiltrating cells from per brain slice, to cells per tissue area mm2 (Fig. 2D, Fig. 4D).

      Fig. 4 data should be shown from un-immunized DR15 MS and DR15 HI mice.

      Reply: We now include the quantitative data from un-immunized mice compared to immunized mice in all groups (Fig. 4 C-E). 

      Reviewer 2:

      We thank Reviewer 2 for their very pertinent comments and overall for highlighting the importance of humanized mice as an approach for further understanding the pathobiology of MS. We also thank this reviewer for their positive comments concerning the study design, specifically the use of fresh PBMC isolated from HLADRB1-typed MS individuals and healthy control. The reviewer highlights 4 major weaknesses of the study that we have tried to address in order to increase the value of the study.

      (i) Lack of sufficient sample size (n=1 in each group) to make any conclusion.

      Reply: We have increased the sample size for the DR15 MS group from n=1 to n=5 by generating new humanized mice using PBMC freshly isolated from additional MS donors, all HLA-DRB1*5 with active RRMS and under treatment with natalizumab. Here we were able to maximize on our excellent collaboration with neurologists at the neighboring University Hospital, which runs a large organized MS outpatient clinic, with HLADRB1-typed MS individuals that are closely monitored over the course of their disease and therapy. In this way, we were able to address the engraftment success of human immune cells and variability in CNS lesion development across mice generated from 5 different DR15 MS patients. We also monitored markers for EBV activation status in all the patients used for mouse humanization in this study. 

      (ii) Lack of phenotype in mice.

      Reply: As already described in the results and address in the discussion, the B2m-NOG immunodeficient mouse strain used here is a state-of-the-art experimental tool for humanization studies, but unfortunately fails to support engraftment by human monocytes. We and previous groups (Zayoud et al., 2013) show that CNS lesions in humanized mice contain high numbers of hCD4 and CD8 T cells, accompanied by locally activated murine microglia and astrocytes, but lack human monocytes. The humanized mice contain large proportions of immature mouse CD11b+Ly6Chi monocytes in the periphery (Suppl. Table 4) but these cells are not recruited into the CNS in non-immunized or immunized humanized mice, potentially due to incompatible chemokine signals across mouse/human. The absence of human monocyte engraftment in this model is the most likely reason that lesions do not demyelinate and this limitation of the currently available host mouse strains is one that needs to be addressed before full modelling of CNS demyelination by human immune cells can be achieved.

      (iii) No disease phenotype even in humanized mice immunized for disease using standard disease induction protocol employed in an animal model of MS.

      Reply: As described above, following the suggestion of reviewer 1 (point 2) we revised the EAE protocol to use lower amounts of peptides given as a single immunization. This resulted in increased numbers of hCD4 T cells and the hCD4/hCD8 T cell ratios at the borders and infiltrating the parenchyma of brain ((Fig. 1E, Fig. 2D) and spinal cord (Fig. 5D), all indicative of a successful EAE immunization. Although immunized mice showed lesions with mixed populations of hCD4 and hCD8 T cells, demyelination and therefore clinical symptoms were again not observed. As outlined in (ii) above, successful human monocyte engraftment would be fundamental for the development of demyelination and clinical symptoms in PBMC humanized mice, and new immunodeficient animal strains should be developed to achieve this.  

      (iv) Mechanistic data on why CD8 T cells are more enriched than CD4+ T cells.

      Reply: The question of why hCD8 T cells are more enriched in the CNS than hCD4 cells is answered at least in part by the results from our new EAE experiments, which clearly show that immunization increases CNS infiltration by hCD4 T cells versus hCD8 T cells. In general, EAE protocols are designed to activate antigen-specific CD4 T cells and this is verified in the CNS of immunized humanized mice, where hCD4 T cells infiltrate to join hCD8T cells in lesion areas. The predilection of hCD8 T cells for CNS is obvious in non-immunized humanized mice, especially in the parenchyma (see Fig. 2E) and MS patients, while hCD4 infiltration becomes important after EAE immunization. The humanized model system might therefore represent a unique tool for studying mechanisms underlying preferential hCD8 T cell involvement in MS neuroinflammaton, a system that is not accurately modelled in current EAE models. As this reviewer correctly points out, this is very important point as postmortem MS patients’ brains have more CD8 T cells than CD4 T cells.

    1. Note: This response was posted by the corresponding author to Review Commons. The content has not been altered except for formatting.

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      Reply to the reviewers

      Reviewer #1 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      The authors report a mass spectrometry (MS)-based interactomics technique, time-resolved interactome profiling (TRIP), which allows for tracking temporal changes in the interactome of protein of interest. To show that TRIP can successfully deconvolute interactomes over time, they pulsed thyroid cells with homopropargylglycine (Hpg), immunoprecipitated the Hpg incorporated thyroglobulin (Tg) and its interacting proteins at different time points, and subjected the samples to tandem mass tag (TMT)-based quantitative MS analysis. The MS results show that WT and variant Tg proteins indeed associate with different proteostasis network factors in a differential manner over the course of time. In addition, they utilized an siRNA-based luciferase fusion assay to evaluate whether silencing each proteostasis network component changes the levels of Tg in both lysate and media. From the combination of the TRIP and siRNA-based assays, they found many hits, including hits implicated in protein degradation, VCP and TEX264, which they validated with multiple experiments.

      I am overall quite positive and think this is an important study. But there are some meaningful points to consider.

      Our Response: We thank Reviewer #1 for their positive outlook on our manuscript and their constructive feedback. We have addressed the comments below.

      Significant comments:

      Reviewer #1, Comment #1: Oonly two replicates of the main data (the TRIP-MS experiments) for this paper is problematic. Especially since the manuscript is supposed to be demonstrating and validating the new technique. Consistent with this concern, the relative enrichment profiles for some of the results were surprising. For instance, interaction with CCDC47 was tapering off but then at 3 h it suddenly reaches the maximum level of engagement. Is this a real finding or the variability in the method? Impossible to tell with two replicates. Presenting heat maps based on biological duplicates is also very problematic. It masks the error, which is large as can be seen in some of the panels showing individual proteins. In my view, triplicates and a clear understanding of the error in the technique should be required.

      Our Response: The TRIP datasets for WT Tg contains 5 biological replicates, while the A2234D and C1264R Tg contains 6 biological replicates. Two replicates are typically included in a TMTpro 16plex mass spectrometry run, and each analysis consists of 3 MS runs. We apologize that the number of replicates and layout of the MS runs was not clearly explained. Data for individual replicates is found in Dataset EV1, Dataset EV3, and a newly added Table EV3 delineates the sample layout across the TMT channels and MS runs. We clarified the text as follows:

      "Subsequently, two sets of TRIP time course samples (0, 0.5, 1, 1.5, 2, and 3 hr) could be pooled using the 16plex TMTpro and analyzed by LC-MS/MS (Fig 2A). In total, 5 biological replicates were analyzed for WT and 6 biological replicates were analyzed for A2234D and C1264R, respectively (Table EV3)."

      Reviewer #1, Comment #2: The same concern arises for the high-throughput siRNA screen, which was performed only in duplicate for WT and A2234D.

      Our Response: While the initial screen was performed in duplicate for WT and A2234D, which is common for larger screens due to resource constraints, we would like to direct the reviewer to the fact that we followed up on observed hits using thyroid cell lines with many more replicates. Furthermore, most hits came from the C1264R Tg variant, which had three replicates in the initial screen. Hits were also extensively followed-up.

      Reviewer #1, Comment #3: *There are issues with some of the immunoprecipitation experiments: In Figure 1C, a negative control for FLAG IP is missing. *

      *-In Figure 2B, I am curious why the band (Hpg -, chase time 0 h) is so faint for the first WB (IB for FLAG) - is Hpg treatment indeed leading to much more Tg present at 0 h? If so, that is a concern. *

      -Also, a negative control must be included (either plain cells or cells expressing fluorescent protein or a different epitope-tagged WT Tg).

      -In this same figure, I am puzzled why the bands for 1.5-3 timepoints in Biotin PD elution, probed for Rhodamine, are very faint especially considering that in Figure 1D, the corresponding bands, which are 4 h after the pulse, look fine. It seems like the IP failed here?

      Our Response: In Fig 2B, we have updated this figure with higher-quality images that are more representative of the results found when performing this experiment. Furthermore, to address the missing negative controls in Fig. 1C, we have added a separate figure (Fig EV2) where (-) FLAG-tagged Tg is included in this panel. We updated the text as follows:

      "Furthermore, the C-terminal FLAG-tag and Hpg labeling are necessary for this two-stage enrichment strategy, and DSP crosslinking is necessary to capture these interactions after stringent wash steps (Fig 1D, Fig EV2)."

      Regarding the Biotin PD rhodamine/TAMRA signal in Fig 2B: The blots in this figure panel represent the time-resolved Tg fractions from cell lysate, corresponding only to intracellular thyroglobulin. The decrease in band intensity for 1.5-3 hr time points is expected due to continued secretion and/or degradation dynamics taking place that decrease the intracellular population of labeled thyroglobulin that is able to be captured. For comparison, please note the C1264R panel (Fig 2C), where the rhodamine/TAMRA signal in the Biotin PD elutions is more stable compared to WT, indicating the cellular retention of C1264R while WT Tg is efficiently secreted and the signal is lost more rapidly. Fig 1D contains samples derived from a 4 hr Hpg pulse (without chase), explaining why the overall fluorescent Tg signal is more intense.

      Suggestion to consider:

      Reviewer #1, Comment #4: This manuscript, supported by the title and abstract, mainly focuses on the presentation of the development and application of TRIP, which is highly significant. The story becomes less coherent and harder to follow as significant amounts of text/figures are dedicated to siRNA-based high throughput screening and follow-up. In addition, although the discovery of TEX264 as one of the hits is very interesting and exciting, TEX264 apparently was not a hit in the TRIP experiment and is pretty distracting from the main point of the paper highlighted in the abstract and title, therefore. The siRNA-based assay and follow-up studies could be a separate scientific story of their own. Especially considering my concerns on the number of replicates for both the TRIP and siRNA-based assay, it could be beneficial to actually split the manuscript into two and conduct more replicates of the -omic work, which should corroborate the exciting discoveries the authors have made.

      Our Response: We have edited the manuscript to hopefully provide a more cohesive presentation of all data, findings, and conclusions within the paper. Given the generally positive outlook on the manuscript from other reviewers and our responses to significant comments from Reviewer #1 we opted to keep the manuscript as a single piece and address all reviewer comments.

      Minor comments:

      Reviewer #1, Comment #5: Throughout the manuscript, the authors have not defined what FT is; presumably it means FLAG tag.

      Our Response: Reviewer #1 is correct in FT corresponding to FLAG tag. We have now edited the manuscript text to clarify this as follows:

      "Thyroglobulin was chosen as model secretory client protein, and we generated isogenic Fischer rat thyroid cells (FRT) cells that stably expressed FLAG-tagged Tg (Tg-FT), including WT or mutant variants (A2234D and C1264R)."

      Reviewer #1, Comment #6: The authors might discuss their rationale for choosing 0-3 hrs for their TRIP studies. That includes any relevant information about the half-life of WT versus variant Tg, whether the Hpg pulse time is short enough to avoid missing key features of the temporal interactome, and discussion of what would happen if the TRIP were performed at prolonged time points (e.g. 6-10 h).

      Our Response: Apologies that we omitted this important point, which is indeed related to the secretion and degradation half-life. We edited the manuscript text to discuss the rationale for 0-3 hr, length of the Hpg pulse and the impact on capturing interactions, and performing TRIP at prolonged time points as follows:

      "Our previous study indicated that ~70% of WT Tg-FT was secreted after 4 hours, while approximately 50% of A2234D and 15% of C1264R was degraded after the same time period (Wright et al, 2021). Therefore, we reasoned that a 3-hr chase period would be a enought time to capture the majority of Tg interactions throughout processing, secretion, cellular retention, and degradation, while still being able to capture an appreciable amount of sample for analysis."

      We explain the labeling timeline and limitations further in the discussion:

      "To address this, we utilized a labeling time of 1 hr which allows us to generate a large enough labeled population of Tg-FT for TRIP analysis, but some early interactions are likely missed within the TRIP workflow. In the case of mutant Tg, performing the TRIP analysis for much longer chase periods (6-8 hrs) may provide insightful details to the iterative binding process of PN components that is thought to facilitate protein retention within the secretory pathway."

      Reviewer #1, Comment #7: Lines 68-69: the two citations should probably come one sentence earlier (at least Coscia et al 2020 is a structure paper).

      Our Response: We agree. We have edited the manuscript as follows to correct this:

      "In earlier work, we mapped the interactome of the secreted thyroid prohormone thyroglobulin (Tg) comparing the WT protein to secretion-defective mutations implicated in congenital hypothyroidism (CH) (Wright et al, 2021). Tg is a heavily post-translationally modified, 330 kDa prohormone that is necessary to produce triiodothyronine (T3) and thyroxine (T4) thyroid specific hormones (Citterio et al, 2019; Coscia et al, 2020). Tg biogenesis relies extensively on distinct interactions with the PN to facilitate folding and eventual secretion."

      Reviewer #1, Comment #8: Line 91: "(Figure 1A)" should follow the sentence "To develop the time-resolved..." to help readers better understand the system.

      Our Response: __We agree. We have edited the manuscript to add the Fig 1A reference. Furthermore, we redesigned the schematic in Fig 1A to better explain the experimental system. (see also __Reviewer #2, comment 10)

      "To develop the time-resolved interactome profiling method, we envisioned a two-stage enrichment strategy utilizing epitope-tagged immunoprecipitation coupled with pulsed biorthogonal unnatural amino acid labeling and functionalization (Fig 1A). Cells can be pulse labeled with homopropargylglycine (Hpg) to synchronize newly synthesized populations of protein. After pulsed labeling with Hpg, samples can then be collected across time points throughout a chase period (Fig 1A, Box 1) (Kiick et al, 2001; Beatty et al, 2006). The Hpg alkyne incorporated into the newly synthesized population of protein can be conjugated to biotin using copper-catalyzed alkyne-azide cycloaddition (CuAAC) (Fig 1A, Box 2). Subsequently, the first stage of the enrichment strategy can take place where the client protein of interest is globally captured and enriched using epitope-tagged immunoprecipitation, followed by elution (Fig 1A, Box 3)."

      Reviewer #1, Comment #9: Line 101: Fisher should be Fischer

      Our Response: Thank you. We have edited the manuscript text to correct this.

      Reviewer #1, Comment #10: Line 131: Should be 1.5 hrs instead of 2 hrs.

      Our Response: We edited this point (see below in comment #11)

      Reviewer #1, Comment #11: Lines 135-136: I do not agree with the claim that HSPA5 profile looked similar for MS and WB. I do not see a peak for HSPA5 at 2 hrs in Figure 2D.

      Our Response: We replaced the mass spectrometry quantification in Fig 2D, E with the scaled, relative enrichments. This provides a more meaningful comparison, as all interactions are scaled in the same way. Unfortunately, it is still difficult to directly compare the Western blot results in Fig. 2B-C to the mass spectrometry quantifications in Fig 2D-E because the WB intensities are not normalized to the Tg bait protein amounts, which is changing over time. At 2-3hrs time points, little WT Tg is pulled down as most of it is secreted. Therefore, the HSPA5 interactions are no longer detectable by Western blot. On the other hand, MS is much more sensitive to capture the interactions. We modified the text as follows:

      "For C1264R, interactions with HSPA5 were highly abundant at the 0 hr time point and remained mostly steady throughout the first 1.5 hours (Fig 2C). A similar temporal profile was also observed for HSP90B1. Additionally, interactions with PDIA4 were detectable for C1264R and were found to gradually increase throughout the first 1.5 hr of the chase period, before rapidly declining (Fig 2C). We noticed similar temporal profiles for PDIA4 and HSPA5 to our western blot analysis, when measured via TMTpro LC-MS/MS as further outlined below (Fig 2D-E). In particular, the HSPA5 WT Tg interaction declined within the first hours, yet for C1264R Tg, the HSPA5 interactions remained mostly steady over the 3-hour chase period. (Fig 2E)."

      Reviewer #1, Comment #12: Line 186: The cited paper Shurtleff et al 2018 is missing in the reference list.

      Our Response: Thank you. We have corrected this in the citation management system and it is now available in the reference list.

      Reviewer #1, Comment #13: Line 188: I disagree with the authors' claim here because, at least for CCDC47, interactions with C1264R seem to come back at the 3 hr time point.

      Our Response: We have removed the discussion of EMC and PAT complex components from the text. The implications of these interactions for Tg biogenesis remain unclear and were therefore a distraction from the discussion of other core proteostasis network components pertinent to Tg processing. Nonetheless, the full dataset - including these interactions - remains available to readers in Appendix Fig S1 for further perusal.

      Reviewer #1, Comment #14: Line 203: I am not sure if P4HA1 can be included in the examples for showing distinct patterns for mutants compared to the WT according to their data in Figure 3H.

      Our Response: We agree. We have edited the text to remove the discussion of prolyl hydroxylation and isomerization family members and elected to discuss the new clustering analysis and the robustness of the TRIP method in more detail. The full TRIP data is nonetheless available to interested readers in Appendix Fig S1.

      Reviewer #1, Comment #15: Line 216: The authors should add citations about the functions of STT3A and STT3B proteins.

      Our Response: We've edited the manuscript text to include a reference to the primary literature for STT3A and STT3B functions, as follows:

      "Previously, we showed that A2234D and C1264R differ in interactions with N glycosylation components, particularly the oligosaccharyltransferase (OST) complex. Efficient A2234D degradation required both STT3A and STT3B isoforms of the OST, which mediate co-translational or post-translational N-glycosylation, respectively (Kelleher et al, 2003; Cherepanova & Gilmore, 2016)."

      Reviewer #1, Comment #16: Lines 248-251, "We found that interactions with these components...": this sentence should refer to Figure 3 - Figure Supplement 3 instead of Figure 3L and S4.

      Our Response: Thank you. This section of the manuscript was significantly rewritten and the figure references updated.

      Reviewer #1, Comment #17: Lines 258-260, "Another striking observation was that the temporal profile of EMC interactions for C1264R correlated with RTN3, PGRMC1, CTSB, and CTSD interactions.": Please provide more evidence to support the potential correlation between different interaction profiles. Or the authors should move this sentence to the discussion section as it sounds speculative. This highlights the issue of only having duplicates, as well.

      Our Response: We agree that this point was highly speculative and we removed discussion of the EMC interactions.

      To further investigate the correlation of interaction profiles across the dataset, we performed unbiased k-means clustering. This led to the identification of 7 and 6 unique clusters of interactors for WT and C1264R Tg-FT, respectively. These data are represented in Fig 3F and Fig EV5. Unique clusters highlight similar temporal interaction profiles for Tg-FT interactors, and provide a quantitative representation of correlative interactions that take place during Tg-FT processing.

      "To assess temporal interaction changes in an unbiased fashion and identify protein groups exhibiting comparative behavior, we carried out k-means clustering of the temporal profiles for WT and C1264R. This analysis revealed a large divergence in the interaction profiles. For WT Tg, only one cluster exhibited steadily decreasing interactions (cluster 4), while others increased with time, or showed peaks at intermediate times (Fig 3F, Fig EV5A). On the other hand, C1264R largely exhibited clusters with decreasing interactions over time (Fig 3F, Fig EV5B). Cluster 2 for WT with biomodal interactions at early and late time points contains many Hsp70/90 chaperoning components. For C1264R Tg, many Hsp70/90 chaperoning components and disulfide/redox-processing components are instead part of cluster 2', which exhibited an initial rise in interactions strength before plateauing (Fig 3F, Fig EV5A,B). This divergent temporal engagement between WT Tg and the destabilized C1264R mutant is aligned with the patterns observed in the manual grouping (Fig 3B,C), highlighting that the unbiased temporal clustering can reveal broader patterns in the reorganization of the proteostasis dynamics."

      One of the clusters of the C1264R Tg interactions contained autophagy interactors along with glycosylation components. We therefore postulate that this could point to a coordination of these processes. We discuss this new point in the updated manuscript:

      "In the k-means clustered profiles, autophagy interactions largely group together in the same cluster, showing stronger interactions at earlier time points. In the same cluster are glycosylation components (UGGT1 and STT3B, MLEC), further supporting a possible coordination for C1264R Tg between lectin-dependent protein quality control and targeting to autophagy (Fig EV5B,C)."

      Reviewer #1, Comment #18: Line 340: As written, should cite more than one paper

      Our Response: Thank you. We reworded the manuscript to correct this, as follows:

      "The discovery of several protein degradation components as hits for rescuing mutant Tg secretion may suggest that the blockage of degradation pathways can broadly rescue the secretion of A2234D and C1264R mutant Tg, a phenomenon similarly found for destabilized CFTR implicated in the protein folding disease cystic fibrosis (Vij et al, 2006; Pankow et al, 2015; McDonald et al, 2022)."

      Reviewer #1, Comment #19: Line 371: Should be Figure 4 - figure supplement 2

      Our Response: We edited the manuscript to correct this error.

      Reviewer #1, Comment #20: Line 1231: "Zhang et al 2018" needs to be removed

      Our Response: We have removed this citation.

      Reviewer #1, Comment #21: Line 1286: FRTR should be FRT

      Our Response: Thank you. We have corrected this within the text.

      Reviewer #1, Comment #22: Figure 3E: Color used to highlight the three proteins (CCDC47, EMC1, EMC4) should match the color used in Figure 3 - Figure Supplement 3

      Our Response: __We have edited Figure 3 to remove the section related to membrane protein biogenesis. This data is still available in __Appendix Fig S1 with consistent color coding.

      Reviewer #1, Comment #23: Figure 4A: The bottom figure where lysate signal is inversely proportional to time is misleading because the authors are assessing steady-state level of proteins in this assay.

      __Our Response: __We agree. We updated the schematic in __Fig 4A __to better explain the workflow and differentiate the steady-state protein level being measured within the lysate.

      Reviewer #1, Comment #24: Figure 4 - Figure Supplement 1 caption: in (C), (F) should be (B). (K) should be (G) and I am not sure what the authors mean when they refer to (J) in caption of (G).

      Our Response: We have corrected this lettering mistake to match the figure properly. Please note that this figure is now Fig EV6, and it includes some new and reorganized panels.

      Reviewer #1, Comment #25: Figure 5 caption for (C and D): Need to specify the time that the samples were collected (8 hrs), as it seems different from A and B according to the main text.

      Our Response: We have specified the collection time within the caption for these data in Fig 5C __and __5D.

      Reviewer #1, Comment #26: Figure 5 - Figure Supplement 1: Data for HERPUD1 and P3H1 should be included.

      Our Response: We have now included data to confirm the knockdown for HERPUD1 and LEPRE1 (P3H1) in Fig EV7F-G.

      Reviewer #1, Comment #27: Figure 5 - Figure Supplement 2B: Please mention in the caption how degradation is defined.

      Our Response: We have updated the Fig EV7H caption to include how "degradation" is defined within these experiments:

      "% Degradation is defined as . Where is the fraction of Tg-FT detected in the lysate at a given timepoint n, and is the fraction of Tg-FT detected in the media at a given timepoint n."

      Reviewer #1 (Significance (Required)):

      Reviewer #1, Comment #28: This manuscript is highly significant because the authors (1) designed and validated a new methodology for time-resolved interactomics study, (2) presented the dynamic changes in Tg interactome for WT and variants, and (3) discovered how proteins implicated in degradation pathways (e.g. VCP, TEX264, RTN3) can change the secretion profile of WT and mutant Tg proteins. With TRIP, the authors demonstrated that they could obtain valuable data that were previously not captured from steady-state interactomics studies (Wright et al. 2021; Figure 3M and Figure 3 - Figure supplement 4D-4I). Furthermore, the authors treated cells with VCP inhibitors and performed both 35S pulse-chase analyses and TRIP. These experiments provide valuable information to the field by (1) presenting a new method to rescue Tg secretion defect, and (2) demonstrating a broader applicability of TRIP. If the major comments above can be addressed I believe this is a tremendous contribution to the field.

      Our Response: We thank Reviewer #1 for their review comments and praise for the work presented within this manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      Reviewer #2: In the manuscript 'Time-Resolved Interactome Profiling Deconvolutes Secretory Protein Quality Control Dynamics' Wright et al. developed an approach for time-resolved protein protein interaction mapping relying on pulsed unnatural amino acid incorporation, protein cross linking, sequential affinity purification, and quantitative mass spectrometry named time-resolved interactome profiling (TRIP). The authors applied the TRIP method to compare the interactions of the secreted thyroid prohormone thyroglobulin (Tg) comparing the WT protein to secretion-defective mutations implicated in congenital hypothyroidism. They further employed an RNA interference screening platform (1) to investigate if (1) interactors identified via TRIP are functionally relevant for Tg protein quality control and (2) to identify factors that can rescue mutant Tg secretion. The screen was initially performed in HEK293 cells, but selected hits with a phenotype in HEK cells were then followed up in Fisher rat thyroid cells. Further functional validation was performed by pharmacologic inhibition of VCP, a hit from the RNAi screen with an effect on Tg lysate abundance and Tg secretion. While the authors present a comprehensive study including identification of protein-protein interactions using proteomics followed up by an RNA interference screen for functional validation, major comments need to be addressed for both the proteomics as well as the functional genomics aspects of the study (see comments below).

      Our response: Thank you to reviewer 2 for their constructive feedback. We addressed all comments in detail below.

      Major comments:

      Reviewer #2, Comment #1: The authors describe a new method for quantitative, temporal interaction mapping. The protocol involves two enrichment steps as well as several reactions including cross-linking of the samples as well as functionalization of the unnatural amino acids. Given all these steps, the authors should rigorously characterize the quantitative reproducibility of the experiment when performed in independent biological replicates. This is important because in the final quantitative MS experiment, the authors only use two biological replicates, which is too low especially for such an involved sample preparation procedure, which would expect to have a high variability between replicates. Given the low number of replicates and the unknown reproducibility of the quantification for this protocol, it is questionable at this point how reliable the quantification over the time course is.

      __Our Response: __We apologize that the number of replicates and robustness of the analysis was not entirely clear in our manuscript. We thank the reviewer for the feedback, as this is important point to clarify. We included several additional analyses to further explain the robustness and quantitative reproducibility of our results:

      • We clarified the number of replicates For quantitative MS experiments five biological replicates were analyzed for WT, while six biological replicates were analyzed for A2234D and C1264R Tg-FT, respectively not two as mistakenly presumed by Reviewer #2. These data are available in Dataset EV1 and Table EV3. There is only one place where two biological replicates are included, C1264R Tg-FT FRT cells treated with ML-240 treatment for TRIP analysis. We have further clarified the number of biological replicates within the manuscript text as follows (see also reviewer #1, comment 1):

      "Subsequently, two sets of TRIP time course samples (0, 0.5, 1, 1.5, 2, and 3 hr) could be pooled using the 16plex TMTpro and analyzed by LC-MS/MS (Fig 2A). In total, 5 biological replicates were analyzed for WT and 6 biological replicates were analyzed for A2234D and C1264R, respectively (Table EV3)."

      • We displayed the reproducibility of TRIP time profiles for several individual proteins in Fig EV3 __and in __Fig 3K (VCP). We included shading to indicate the standard error of the mean (SEM) for the individual protein time courses to provide further assessment of the quantitative reproducibility. We updated the text as follows: "To benchmark the TRIP methodology, we chose to monitor a set of well-validated Tg interactors and compare the time-resolved PN interactome changes to our previously published steady-state interactomics dataset (Wright et al, 2021). Previously, we found that CALR, CANX, ERP29 (PDIA9), ERP44, and P4HB interactions with mutants A2234D or C1264R Tg exhibited little to no change when compared to WT under steady state conditions (Fig EV4A). However, in our TRIP dataset we were able to uncover distinct temporal changes in engagement that were previously masked within the steady-state data. Our time-resolved data deconvolutes these aggregate measurements, revealing prolonged CALR, ERP29, and P4HB engagements for both A2234D and C1264R Tg mutants compared to WT (Fig EV4B-F). We found that these measurements for key interactors and PN pathways exhibited robust reproducibility, as exemplified by the standard error of the mean for the TRIP data (Fig EV4B-I, Appendix Figure S1B)."

      • For full transparency, we also include the SEM of all TRIP profiles in the heatmap in Appendix Fig S1B.

      • Furthermore, we included 25-75% quartile ranges for the pathway aggregated time courses (Fig 3B,C,J,K) and the k-means hierarchical clustering analysis (Fig 3F, Fig EV5). Especially these clustering data allow for the visualization and analysis of temporal protein interactions that are correlated with one another, while the accompanying quartile ranges provide further context for the reproducibility of these measurements and cluster profiles (see __Reviewer #1, Comment 17 __above for further explanation about the k-means clustering).

        Reviewer #2, Comment #2: Compared to the previous dataset published last year, the authors discover an overlap in interactors, but also a huge discrepancy, with 96 previously identified interactors not detected in the current study, but 198 additional interactors identified. How do the authors explain the big differences between these datasets?

      __Our Response: __We can only speculate here but this difference in overlapping interactors may stem from several different factors, including but not limited to cell line, instrumentation, LC-MS/MS methodology, and sample processing workflows. Our previous dataset was published using transiently transfected HEK293 cell lines expressed FLAG-tagged constructs of Tg. The HEK293 cell line makes for a robust cell line used throughout several biological investigations, but it is not representative of the native cellular environment in which Tg is expressed. Moreover, transiently transfected cells can lead to high protein expression that may not always represent what is found within the native cellular environment and proteome. Here, we used Fischer rat thyroid (FRT) cells engineered to stably express FLAG-tagged constructs of Tg. This cell line model should more accurately represent the native cellular environment Tg is expressed as it is exclusively found within thyroid tissue. Our previous dataset was collected across two different instruments with similar LC-MS/MS methodology. Here, this dataset was collected on a single instrument after performing further method optimization from our methodology used to acquire the first dataset. In line with our LC-MS/MS methodology development, the sample processing workflows here are quite different. Our previous dataset utilized 6plex TMT labeling with globally immunoprecipitated samples from various Tg constructs. Global immunoprecipitation of Tg leads to much larger protein sample amounts than the TRIP methodology presented here, which we coupled with 16plex TMTpro labeling. This is also one of the reasons we chose to deploy a booster/carrier channel within our experimental labeling schemes.

      Reviewer #2, Comment #3: For the temporal interaction analysis the authors describe differences in the temporal profiles of selected interactions comparing wt and mutant, however no statistical analysis is performed comparing wt and mutant interaction profiles across the time course. Furthermore the variability between the replicates for the temporal profiles is not shown and some of the temporal profiles appear to be noisy. A more rigorous statistical analysis should be performed including additional biological replicates to evaluate the changes over the time course, especially as the temporal interaction analysis is the novelty of this study.

      Our Response: Please also see our response to Reviewer #2, comment 1 above. We previously presented an analysis of the variability of the TRIP measurements (SEM) (now in Appendix Fig S1B). We have since provided further statistical analysis found in the updated Fig 2B,C,J, which include 25-75% quartile ranges for respective proteostasis network pathways. We also included SEM for the time profiles of individual interactors in Fig EV4.

      To assess the divergence in time profiles in an unbiased way, we added a k-means hierarchical clustering analysis (Fig 3F, Fig. EV5). These clustering data allow for the visualization and analysis of temporal protein interaction profiles that are similar to one another and how groups of interactors shift between different clusters for WT Tg and the C1264R mutant.

      Reviewer #2, Comment #4: To functionally validate interactors derived from the TRIP analysis as well as to identify factors that can rescue mutant Tg secretion the authors developed an RNA interference screen. There are a number of aspects that need to be addressed/clarified for this part of the study.

      Our Response: We have added some clarifying changes to the text and the figure panels associated with the siRNA screening and follow-up experiments on the trafficking and degradation factors that rescue Tg secretion. We have addressed other comments from Reviewers #3 and #4 related to these portions of the paper and hope that Reviewer #2 finds them satisfactory.

      Reviewer #2, Comment #5: While the authors validate the stable cell lines expressing the nanoluciferase tagged Tg and the linearity of luminescence signal in lysate and media carefully, they do not validate their platform in combination with the RNAi knockdown strategy. The authors should select genes as positive controls that are expected to modulate Tg secretion and demonstrate that the knockout of these positive controls indeed results in changes in Tg secretion in their system.

      Our Response: This is an excellent suggestion and certainly something we would have done given any prior knowledge on known control genes that would positively or negatively regulate Tg secretion. The purpose for developing the siRNA screening platform was to investigate and hopefully discover genes that are able to positively or negatively regulate Tg processing. We have done so to the best of our ability, identifying for example NAPA which positively regulates WT Tg secretion, as seen by the decrease in WT Tg secretion when treated with NAPA siRNA. Conversely, we found that VCP may negatively regulate C1264R Tg secretion, as discovered by the increase in secretion with VCP siRNA or ML-240 treatment. We included a standard "TOX" siRNA control, which we knew would likely negatively affect WT Tg secretion and this was indeed the case. As we stated within the manuscript:

      "This is the first study to broadly investigate the functional implications of Tg in-teractors and other PQC network components on Tg processing."

      Reviewer #2, Comment #6: For the screen the authors select 167 Tg interactors and PN (Proteostasis network) related factors. This statement is very vague and the authors should clarify which genes were knocked down and which criteria were applied to narrow down the list of interactors and to select PN factors. The authors should therefore provide a supplementary table including all genes included in the screen, their source (were this derived from the initial study by Wright et al, from the current study or compiled from prior knowledge about PN), as well as their results from the screen based on luminescence in media and lysate. It is unclear how many of the selected factors are actually coming from the TRIP analysis.

      Our Response: The list of genes included within the siRNA screen, as well as the results were previously included, and are now included in Appendix Fig S2. We have further provided the information requested by Reviewer #2 within Dataset EV5 indicating whether a gene was included in the siRNA screen due to its identification within our previous proteomics dataset (Wright et al, 2021.), the proteomics dataset presented here, or based upon primary literature. We added a comment in the text:

      "Moreover, we were interested in identifying factors whose modulation may act to rescue mutant Tg secretion. HEK293 cells were engineered to stably express nanoluciferase-tagged Tg constructs (Tg-NLuc) and screened against 167 Tg interactors and related PN components (see Dataset EV5 for the list of genes)."

      Reviewer #2, Comment #7: Only a small number of the 167 selected genes shows an effect on Tg abundance/secretion. How do the authors explain this result? Would we not expect that Tg interactors, especially those from the TRIP method which interact with the newly synthesized are more enriched for functionally relevant genes.

      Our Response: The proteostasis network contains genes and proteins of high redundancy in structure and function, and many single-gene knockdowns are likely insufficient to have a large impact on Tg abundance or secretion. In fact, these results are in line with what we would have expected when designing these experiments. Our goal here was to identify the key players that control Tg protein quality control.

      We explain the proteostasis network redundancy in the manuscript:

      "The functional implications of protein-protein interactions can be difficult to deduce, especially in the case of PQC mechanisms containing several layers of redundancy across stress response pathways, paralogs, and multiple unique proteins sharing similar functions (Wright & Plate, 2021; Bludau & Aebersold, 2020; Karagöz et al, 2019; Braakman & Hebert, 2013)."

      Reviewer #2, Comment #8: The authors initially performed the screen in HEK293 cells and as a second step wanted to validate the hits from the HEK cells in more relevant Fisher rat thyroid cells. Indeed they could show that knockdown of NAPA increased WT TG in lysate and decreased WT Tg secretion. Furthermore, they further validated genes to modulate mutant Tg lysate and media abundance. The authors should perform a rescue experiment to demonstrate that the observed phenotype can be reversed through re-introduction of NAPA.

      Our Response: We have now performed the requested NAPA complementation experiments and provided the data within Fig EV 7I. Overexpression of a human, siRNA-resistant NAPA construct partially reversed the increase in WT Tg lysate retention. These results further support the identification of NAPA as a pro-trafficking factor for WT Tg. We updated the manuscript text to include these data as follows:

      "To understand if these results were directly attributable to NAPA function, we performed complementation experiments where FRT cells treated with NAPA siRNAs were co-transfected with a human NAPA plasmid. WT Tg lysate abundance decreased when NAPA expression was complemented, confirming that the observed retention phenotype could be attributed to NAPA silencing (Fig EV7I). These results established that NAPA acts as a pro-secretion factor for WT Tg."

      Reviewer #2, Comment #9: One hit from this analysis was the ER-phagy receptor TEX264, while TEX264 was not identified in the TRIP data, is selectively increased the C1264R secretion, but not wt and the other Tg mutant. Following Co-IP data however revealed some interaction between the C1264R and to a lesser extent the A2234D mutant. How do the authors explain that TEX264 was missed in the TRIP dataset?

      Our Response: The TRIP samples are of much lower protein abundance compared to globally purified samples used for the Co-IP analysis. While the interaction is seen with the globally purified Co-IP samples, this interaction is likely much more difficult to capture with the low abundance, time-resolved samples that are acquired through the TRIP workflow, especially if this interaction is transient or requires the coordination of other accessory proteins as has been detailed in the literature and discussed within the manuscript presented here:

      "While A2234D and C1264R Tg were preferentially enriched with TEX264 compared to WT, it remains unclear what other accessory proteins may be necessary for the recognition of TEX264 clients (Chino et al, 2019; An et al, 2019). Furthermore, TEX264 function in both protein degradation and DNA damage repair further complicates siRNA-based investigations (Fielden et al., 2022). Further investigation is needed to fully elucidate 1) if Tg degradation takes place via ER-phagy and 2) by which mechanisms this targeting is mediated."

      Minor comments:

      Reviewer #2, Comment #10: The workflow needs to be described clearer. For example, it should be better explained why the authors selected a two-stage enrichment strategy, I assume that the first based on the Flag affinity tag is to purify the protein of interest and the second step based on the incorporation and functionalization of the unnatural amino acids to enrich for the newly synthesized fraction at specific time points after protein synthesis? These are critical steps for the method but the rationals are not well explained, neither in the text nor the figures captures all these steps of the method very clearly, which makes it really difficult for the reader to understand the individual steps of the method. Moreover, the structures in Figure 1 workflow are not clearly labeled, so that it is confusing which part represents which protein/molecule.

      Our Response: Thank you for this feedback. We have updated Fig 1 to provide more detail to provide more clarity for the readers. Furthermore, we have edited the text to more clearly describe the workflow:

      "To develop the time-resolved interactome profiling method, we envisioned a two-stage enrichment strategy utilizing epitope-tagged immunoprecipitation coupled with pulsed biorthogonal unnatural amino acid labeling and functionalization (Fig 1A). Cells can be pulse labeled with homopropargylglycine (Hpg) to synchronize newly synthesized populations of protein. After pulsed labeling with Hpg, samples can then be collected across time points throughout a chase period (Fig 1A, Box 1) (Kiick et al, 2001; Beatty et al, 2006). The Hpg alkyne incorporated into the newly synthesized population of protein can be conjugated to biotin using copper-catalyzed alkyne-azide cycloaddition (CuAAC) (Fig 1A, Box 2). Subsequently, the first stage of the enrichment strategy can take place where the client protein of interest is globally captured and enriched using epitope-tagged immunoprecipitation, followed by elution (Fig 1A, Box 3). The second enrichment step can then utilize a biotin-streptavidin pulldown to capture the Hpg pulse-labeled, and CuAAC conjugated population, enriching samples into time-resolved fractions (Fig 1A, Box 4) (Li et al, 2020; Thompson et al, 2019)."

      Reviewer #2, Comment #11: Except for the general workflow shown in Figure 1, a more detailed workflow showing the experimental steps, such as the sample fractions with the following steps could be added so that the design of the method is clearer. Also the style of the workflows including Figure 1, Figure 2A, and Figure 3A are different. It would be helpful to make them the same style and make the Figure 2A as a zoom in or more detailed illustration on part of Figure 1.

      Our Response: Thank you for this feedback. In addition to updating Fig 1, we also expanded Fig 2A to more clearly outline the experimental steps in the TRIP workflow. Assuming the term "style" used here is in reference to color pallets and figure schematics used, these have been updated to ensure they are agreeable aesthetically across manuscript figures.

      Reviewer #2, Comment #12: A summary of proteomics results of time course labeling after all enrichment steps, including the total number of identified proteins at different conditions and control would be helpful for having an overview impression on the proteomics results

      Our Response: __We have included an updated __Dataset EV1 that provides a summary of proteomics data included which runs given proteins were identified in, % of TMT channels quantified, % of Hpg Pulse channels quantified, and generally number of proteins quantified across runs for each construct.

      Reviewer #2, Comment #13: In Figure 2B, the WB for PDIA4 in the Biotin PD elution is missing. Why was the PDIA4 interaction missing for the time course analysis, but the interaction was captured in the initial test for Wt Tg (Figure 1D). Additionally, in this panel the Rhodamine Probe Gel shows inconsistencies at the time points 1.5 - 3h. Does this mean that the labeling did not work well for these conditions? As we would expect a consistent Rhodamine Probe signal at every time point.

      Our Response: Please also see our response to Reviewer #1, comments 3 & 11. Fig 1D features continuous Hpg labeling for 4 hours to ensure that most intracellular Tg is labeled for this proof-of-concept experiment for the two-stage enrichment strategy. Fig 2B features a shorter 60 minute pulse of Hpg labeling, prior to the full chase period and two-stage enrichment strategy. PDIA4 interactions were detectable throughout Fig 1D because those measurements captured a larger population of labeled Tg, whereas in Fig 2B Tg bait protein amounts were much smaller after the two-stage enrichment procedure to capture the time-synchronized population.

      The Rhodamine/TAMRA Probe Gel in Fig 2B does not have inconsistencies in Tg abundance, but highlights the fact that pulse labeled WT Tg is being secreted or degraded in FRT cells. As you would expect as time continues during the chase period, intracellular WT Tg signal decreases as secretion and degradation take place. Constant Rhodamine/TAMRA probe signal would not be expected here. Consistent with this, the C1264R Tg signal remains more stable for the intial time course. This is expected as the C1264R Tg variant is retained intracellular undergoing increased interactions the proteostasis network. We have removed the PDIA4 panel for WT Tg because there was no signal above the detection limit. This is now explained as follows:

      "For WT Tg, interactions with HSPA5 peaked within the first 30 minutes of the chase period and rapidly declined, in line with previous observations, but PDIA4 interactions were not detectable by western blot analysis (Fig 2B) (Menon et al, 2007; Kim & Arvan, 1995)."

      Reviewer #2, Comment #14: In Figure 2, why was there no WB results for the A2234D? In Figure 2D and 2E, at which time point are the changes significant compared to WT?

      Our Response: We did not perform the WB experiments with A2234D. We used WT and C1264R Tg in our proof of concept experiments via WB and decided to move forward with analyzing A2234D Tg by LC-MS/MS. Please see our response above to Reviewer #2, comment 3 for information on the statistical analysis.

      Reviewer #2, Comment #15: All figure legends should indicate how many biological replicates were performed for each experiment represented in the figure.

      Our Response: We have updated the figure captions to include this information where applicable.

      Reviewer #2, Comment #16: The heatmaps shown in Figure 3, Figure 3 - Figure Supplement 3, and Figure 7 are in the current form incomprehensible. The heatmaps depict the relative enrichment vs the control sample, which was scaled between 1 and -1. The color coding with 5 different colors from 1 to -1 is very confusing and should be changed to just two colors, one for positive and one for negative relative enrichment. I would also suggest changing the visualization of the heatmap showing the wt and mutants side by side, instead of stacked on top of each other for each individual protein.

      Our Response: Thank you for this feedback, and we apologize for the confusion. We adjusted our data analysis approach by removing previous negative enrichment values. As these served only as "background" within the dataset, they did not carry much meaning. The TRIP enrichment is now scaled from 0 to 1, where a value of 1 represents the time point at which the enrichment is greatest, while 0 represents the background intensity in the (-) Hpg control sample. The associated figures have been updated accordingly, and we feel they are now more comprehensible and aesthetically pleasing.

      We opted to keep the Viridis color scheme in the heatmap to allow for more nuanced differentiation of the enrichment values.

      Reviewer #2, Comment #17: The data analysis method for generating relative enrichment shown in the heatmap is not explained. This should be described in the method section for a better understanding of the data analysis.

      Our Response: We have edited the methods section as follows to better explain the analysis:

      "For time resolved analysis, data were processed in R with custom scripts. Briefly, TMT abundances across chase samples were normalized to Tg TMT abundance as described previously and compared to (-) Hpg samples for enrichment analysis (Wright et al, 2021). For relative enrichment analysis, the means of log2 interaction differences were scaled to values from 0 to 1, where a value of 1 represented the time point at which the enrichment reached the maximum, and 0 represented the background intensity in the (-) Hpg channel. Negative log2 enrichment values were set to 0 as the enrichment fell below the background."

      Reviewer #2, Comment #18: There are no legends of flowcharts in Figure 2A and Figure 3A and it is difficult to understand which are the key components in the complex and what are the differences among different periods of labeling.

      Our Response: We have now consolidated Fig 2A and Fig 3A into a single panel found in Fig 2A, which is significantly reorganized to better explain the TRIP workflow. The caption has additionally been updated to highlight key steps within the workflow with numbering to allow readers to follow and visualize the steps more easily. The figure caption now reads as follows:

      "(A) Workflow for TRIP protocol utilizing western blot or mass spectrometric analysis of time-resolved interactomes. (1) Cells are pulse-labeled with Hpg (200μM final concentration) for 1 hr, chased in regular media for specified time points, and cross-linked with DSP (0.5mM) for 10 minutes to capture transient proteoastasis network interactions; (2) Lysates are functionalized with a TAMRA-Azide-PEG-Desthiobiotin probe using copper CuAAC Click reaction; (3) Lysates undergo the first stage of the enrichment strategy where the Tg-FT is globally captured and enriched using immunoprecipitation; (4) Eluted Tg-FT populations from the global immunoprecipitation undergo biotin-streptavidin pulldown to capture the pulse Hpg-labeled, and CuAAC conjugated population of Tg-FT, enriching samples into time-resolved fractions; (5) Time-resolved fraction may then undergo western blot analysis or (6) quantitative liquid chromatography - tandem mass spectrometry (LC-MS/MS) analysis with tandem mass tag (TMTpro) multiplexing or analysis. The (-) Hpg control channel is used to identify enriched interactors and a (-) Biotin pulldown channel to act as a booster (or carrier)."

      Reviewer #2, Comment #19: Why did only one of the VCP inhibitors (ML-240) exhibit a phenotype in Tg abundance and secretion, but not the other VCP inhibitors?

      Our Response: Please also see our response to Reviewer #3, comment 2 below. This could be due to a number of reasons, but we added a brief discussion on the mechanisms of action for the inhibitors that may at least partially explain the differences in phenotype seen with the VCP inhibitors. We updated the text as follows:

      "ML-240 and CB-5083 are ATP-competitive inhibitors that preferentially target the D2 domain of VCP subunits, whereas NMS-873 is a non-ATP-competitive allosteric inhibitor which binds at the D1-D2 interface of VCP subunits (Chou et al, 2013, 2014; Anderson et al, 2015; le Moigne et al, 2017; Tang et al, 2019). ML-240 and NMS-873 have been shown to decrease both proteasomal degradation and autophagy, in line with VCP playing a role in both processes (Chou et al, 2013, 2014; Her et al, 2016). Conversely, while CB-5083 is known to decrease proteasomal degradation it has been shown to increase autophagy. (Anderson et al, 2015; le Moigne et al, 2017; Tang et al, 2019)."

      Reviewer #2 (Significance (Required)):

      Reviewer #2, Comment #20: __The authors __describe a novel and elegant method to map time resolved protein interactions of newly synthesized proteins, which allows monitoring of proteins regulating protein quality control.

      Authors describe it as a general method, however, they only demonstrate the applicability to one protein and do not systematically evaluate the quantitative nature of their approach by determining quantitative reproducibility, which would be necessary to be able to claim that this is a method with broad applicability.

      Given my expertise in quantitative proteomics, I can mainly comment on the technological aspects of the proteomics part of the manuscript, but do not feel qualified to evaluate the significance of this study in terms of novel biology. Nevertheless, it feels that there is a stronger emphasis on the biology in the current form of the manuscript which will raise interest of scientists with a focus on protein quality control and Tg biology.

      Reviewer #3 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      Provide a short summary of the findings and key conclusions (including methodology and model system(s) where appropriate). Please place your comments about significance in section 2.

      In this manuscript, the authors describe their efforts to develop a methodology for determining time-resolved protein-protein interactions using quantitative mass spectrometry. With TRIP (time-resolved interactome profiling), they combine a pulsed bio-orthogonal unnatural amino acid labelling (homopropargylglycine, Hpg), CuAAC conjugation and biotin-streptavidin pulldowns to enrich at different timepoints and time-resolve by combining TMT labelling and LC-MS/MS (Figure 1). This technique is then applied to the maturation of the secreted WT and mutant thyroglobulin (Tg-WT, Tg-C1264R, Tg-A2234D) expressed in HEK293 and rat thyroid cells (FRT) and linked to hyperthyroidism. There, they identify a collection of ER resident proteins involved in protein folding/processing (e.g. chaperones, redox, glycans, hydroxylation) as well as degradation (e.g. autophagy, ERAD/proteasomes) (Fig. 2). Here the authors effectively use pulse-labelled form of TRIPs to highlight the different interactions formed with Tg-WT vs. Tg-mutants during biogenesis and secretion (or retention). The analysis found ~200 new interactions compared to previous studies along with about 40% of those identified previously. Differences in interactions were observed for mutants, which shown extended interaction with chaperones and redox processing pathways. While many interactions appeared as might be expected, the identification of membrane protein processing elements (e.g. EMC, PAT) was puzzling and raised some questions about the specificity within the protocol. Mutants enriched for CANX CALR and UGGT, suggesting prolonged association with glyco-processing factors. Interaction of C1264R with the ER-phagy factors CCPG1 and RTN3 was greater than WT. The authors note that their interaction correlated with that of EMC1 & 4, but it is not clear why that might be.

      With interactors in hand, the authors complemented the TRIP protocol with siRNA KD of identified factors, to investigate any changes to secreted vs intracellular Tg upon loss. KD of NAPA (a-SNAP) and LMAN1 increased WT lysate (intracellular) Tg but not mutants. NAPA also reduced Tg-WT secretion. In contrast, KD of NAPA increased A2234D secretion while LEPRE1 increased C1264R (but not A2234D or WT), suggesting mutants have differential processing paths and requirements. KD of VCP increased secretion of both mutants. Some ER-phagy receptors were found among interactors (e.g. RTN3 in Tg-C1264R only) but often their KD had no impact on secretion (CCPG1, SEC62, FAM134B). NAMA observations were recapitulated in thyroid derived cell line (FRT). KD of TEX264 and VCP increased Tg-C1264 secretion while RTN3 KD in FRTs decreased Tg-C1264 secretion. This was in contrast to data from HEK293s for reasons that are not clear. Co-IP with TEX264 enriched for all Tg forms but more so for C1264R and A2234D - motivating the authors to propose selective targeting of Tg to TEX264 and the consideration of ER-phagy as a "major" degradative pathway during Tg processing.

      Given the observations with siRNAs to VCP, the authors next use a selection of VCP inhibitors to ask whether secretion can be rescued upon pharmacological impairment of the AAA ATPase. They observed that ML-240, but interestingly not the more conventionally used CB-5083 or NMS-873, increased secretion of Tg-C1264R but not lysate. Inhibitors increased lysate but decreased the secreted fraction for Tg-WT (Fig 7). Finally, the authors used TRIP again in ML-240 treated Tg-C1264R expressing cells to look for changes to interactome with treatment - observed decreases to glycan and chaperone interactions, CANX and UGGT1, decreased interaction with DNAJB11 and C10, like that of WT. There was no apparent change to the UPR, although activation was not directly measured.

      Major comments:

      Reviewer #3, Comment #1: __Are the key conclusions convincing? __The TRIP methodology appears to be quite robust and should be a powerful strategy for this field and others going forward. The drawback will be the length of pulse required will limit the number/type of proteins to be monitored to ones with longer t1/2's. There were interesting interactions found with Tg and the mutants linked to hyperthyroidism, but cut and dry differences did not appear as obvious, even though strong "trends" appear to be present. The path from identifying interactors in a time-resolved manner to then following them up with targeted KD does provides some clarity, which is important.

      Our Response: We thank Reviewer #3 for their time in reviewing our manuscript and providing this positive feedback. We have enhanced our analysis of the TRIP data to more clearly highlight difference in time profiles between WT and mutant variants. Please see our response to Reviewer #2, comment 1 & 3. We also highlight the limitations of the time resolution in the discussion (see also Reviewer #2, comment 6):

      "To address this, we utilized a labeling time of 1 hr which allows us to generate a large enough labeled population of Tg-FT for TRIP analysis, but some early interactions are likely missed within the TRIP workflow. In the case of mutant Tg, performing the TRIP analysis for much longer chase periods (6-8 hrs) may provide insightful details to the iterative binding process of PN components that is thought to facilitate protein retention within the secretory pathway."

      We have addressed all further comments below.

      __Reviewer #3, Comment #2: __Should the authors qualify some of their claims as preliminary or speculative, or remove them altogether? The data regarding VCP silencing and pharmacological impairment appear clear but leave some questions outstanding in this reviewer's opinion. The lack of effect with the 2 highly selective inhibitors suggests that the underlying mechanism for switching fate of intracellularly retained Tg-C1264R towards secreted forms is not at all clear. ML-240 is an early derivative of DBeQ and reportedly impairs both ERAD and autophagic pathways, similarly to DBeQ. The differences between the VCP inhibitors' mechanism of action were not discussed, but perhaps should be elaborated upon, particularly in the matter of how ERAD and ER-phagy pathways might be being differentially affected. At the risk of asking for too many additional experiments, this reviewer would just prefer to see this fleshed out in a bit more detail.

      Our response: We agree with Reviewer #3 that the underlying mechanism for switching fate of the intracellular retained Tg-C1264R towards secreted forms remains unclear. We have added additional text to discuss further the details surrounding the inhibitors used and the general manner in which ERAD and ER-phagy pathways can be affected. This added text reads as follows:

      "ML-240 and CB-5083 are ATP-competitive inhibitors that preferentially target the D2 domain of VCP subunits, whereas NMS-873 is a non-ATP-competitive allosteric inhibitor which binds at the D1-D2 interface of VCP subunits (Chou et al, 2013, 2014; Anderson et al, 2015; le Moigne et al, 2017; Tang et al, 2019). ML-240 and NMS-873 have been shown to decrease both proteasomal degradation and autophagy, in line with VCP playing a role in both processes (Chou et al, 2013, 2014; Her et al, 2016). Conversely, while CB-5083 is known to decrease proteasomal degradation it has been shown to increase autophagy. (Anderson et al, 2015; le Moigne et al, 2017; Tang et al, 2019)."

      "As we discovered that pharmacological VCP inhibition with ML-240 can rescue C1264R Tg secretion yet is detrimental for WT Tg processing, it is unclear whether VCP may exhibit distinct functions for WT and mutant Tg PQC. Finally, as ML-240 is shown to block both the proteasomal and autophagic functions of VCP it is unclear which of these pathways may be playing a role in the rescue of C1264R, or detrimental WT processing (Chou et al, 2013, 2014)."

      __Reviewer #3, Comment #3: __Q1. The degree (if any) of Tg-C1264 aggregation during and/or detergent solubility do not appear to have been considered as a potential source of the increase in released secreted material (Figure 4, 5). Do Tg mutants partition into RIPA-insoluble fractions at all? That is to say.. is the total population of synthesized Tg being considered? A full accounting? Could the authors address this and if biochemical extraction data (via urea or high SDS) is available, include it to answer this concern.

      Our response: The transient aggregation of Tg has been investigated in some detail previously (Kim et al, 1992, 1993). The transient aggregates have the ability to partition into RIPA-insoluble fractions. Of note, these aggregates are shown to be made up, at least in part, of mixed disulfide linkages requiring reducing agent to fully resolubilize. With that being said, these aggregates represent a minority of the overall Tg population. In our prior manuscript (Wright, et al. 2021), we quantified the RIPA-insoluble fraction found in the pellet (see Supplemental Info Fig. 5). As the majority of Tg remains soluble during processing it should be able to be captured via our TRIP methodology. That is to say, we are capturing most of the Tg that is available for analysis while understanding that some smaller population of Tg remains in RIPA-insoluble fractions.

      __Reviewer #3, Comment #4: __Q2. Along the same lines, what does Tg-WT and mutant expression look like by microscopy? Is Tg-WT uniformly distributed while Tg-mutants appear in puncta... more aggregated - perhaps reflecting the increased engagement of chaperones and redox machinery? Changes in the pattern of Tg-C1264R mutant (e.g. w/ VCP KD or inhibition) would add additional support for the authors interpretation of improved secretion. If this data is at hand, including it might be worth consideration.

      Our response: Thank you for this suggestion. The subcellular localization of Tg and any changes from proteostasis modulation is an ongoing area of follow up work in our lab. We have some preliminary results that the localization for WT and C1264R Tg indeed differs. However, given that this manuscript is already dense in information, we opted to reserve this data for a future manuscript where we plan to further elucidate the targeting mechanism of mutant Tg to VCP or TEX264. We direct the reviewer to work published by Zhang et al, 2022,(https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jbc.2022.102066) showing a staunch difference of WT vs mutant Tg in the localization from intracellular to a secreted population in rat tissue. While most all WT Tg is found in the follicular lumen (secreted), mutant Tg heavily co-localizes with the ER resident chaperone BiP. While this paper does not go into detail on the differences in subcellular localization, it further highlights the drastic changes in Tg processing and how these manifest in distinct differences in localization within tissue.

      __Reviewer #3, Comment #5: __Q3. Does the level of Tg mutant expression in the FRT clones impact the profiles obtained by TRIP? (Figure 3). This is a question of gauging the relative saturation of QC machinery and how that might impact profiles from TRIP. Were clones expressing at different levels tested? Perhaps a brief discussion of this.

      Our response: We do not foresee an impact from level of Tg expression on the profiles obtained by TRIP. We were able to identify distinct profiles because we processed the data and normalized it based on the relative Tg amount. For example, while WT and A2234D Tg are expressed at similar levels intracellularly, we were able to identify distinct differences in the interaction profiles across the two constructs. When developing FRT clones, we selected those that were expressed at similar levels and, therefore, did not have the capability to directly test differences, if any, in observed profiles that may be the result of different expression levels of the same Tg construct. Furthermore, Tg can make up 50% of all protein content within thyroid tissue (Di Jeso & Arvan, 2016). As such, thyroid cells are adept at maintaining the balance of QC machinery to process thyroid. Therefore, we do not anticipate that the amount of Tg expressed in TRIP experiments would have a significant impact on the profiles that we were able to observe.

      __Reviewer #3, Comment #6: __Q4. For Figure 3, the hour-long labelling period seems a bit long, compared with 3 hr of chase. Perhaps this reviewer missed this but how long does Tg take to mature and/or mutants to misfold and degrade? Is there any possibility to shorten this so that the profiles of labelled Tg could be more synchronized? If not, perhaps this could just be discussed.

      Our response: While the 1-hour labeling period may seem long, we had to balance the labeling time to 1) label a large enough population of Tg for it to remain detectible throughout the chase period, and 2) keep the chase period long enough to capture the large majority of Tg processing. In our hands we found that by 4 hours WT Tg was ~63% secreted, with ~25% retained intracellular (Fig EV7H). Conversely, we found that C1264R remains very stable over this period with most protein being retaining intracellularly and little degradation taking place (Fig EV9A). Hence, we opted for the overall ~4 hour total for sample processing (1 Hr pulse labeling + 3 hour chase period for time point collections). Literature suggest that WT Tg takes ~2 hours to be processed within the ER and reach the medial golgi. This is exemplified by the EndoH resistant population that appears at this ~2 hour time point (Menon et al. JBC. 2007). Please also see our response to Reviewer #1, comment 6. We updated the text as follows:

      "We pulse labeled WT Tg FRT cells with Hpg for 1 hr, followed by a 3 hr chase in regular media capturing time points in 30-minute intervals and analyzing via western blot or TMTpro LC-MS/MS (Fig 2A). Our previous study indicated that ~70% of WT Tg-FT was secreted after 4 hours, while approximately 50% of A2234D and 15% of C1264R was degraded after the same time period (Wright et al, 2021). Therefore, we reasoned that a 3-hr chase period would be a enought time to capture the majority of Tg interactions throughout processing, secretion, cellular retention, and degradation, while still being able to capture an appreciable amount of sample for analysis."

      We anticipate that this labeling period can be decreased with future iterations of this methodology. This will also be bolstered by the continued improvements that come about within quantitative proteomics in increased instrument sensitivity and improved sample preparation methods that have the ability to decrease sample loss.

      We explain the labeling timeline and limitations further in the discussion:

      "To address this, we utilized a labeling time of 1 hr which allows us to generate a large enough labeled population of Tg-FT for TRIP analysis, but some early interactions are likely missed within the TRIP workflow. In the case of mutant Tg, performing the TRIP analysis for much longer chase periods (6-8 hrs) may provide insightful details to the iterative binding process of PN components that is thought to facilitate protein retention within the secretory pathway."

      __Reviewer #3, Comment #7: __Q5. It is curious that only ML-240 and not other well characterized inhibitors of VCP/p97, has an effect, as both are used far more often than ML-240. The authors do not really address this in detail but does it suggest that the ML-240 effect on VCP/p97 could be affecting different pathways, given the nature of this compound. Is this compound acting on Tg-C1264R maturation at the level of translation or post-translationally? If the latter, through what means?

      Our Response: We thank Reviewer #3 for appreciating this surprising finding. We were similarly curious as to how, or why ML-240 was able to elicit this effect compared to other VCP inhibitors. We elaborated in the manuscript text on these compounds and on how the ERAD and ERphagy pathways, utilizing VCP, may be differentially regulated (See response to__ Reviewer #3, Comment 2__). While speculative, we believe that ML-240 acts on C1264R Tg maturation post-translationally. This is given by the fact that ML-240 does not seem to affect the translational velocity of C1264R Tg, as Fig EV9A shows similar levels of 35S-labeled C1264R in DMSO or ML-240 treated cells. It may be the case that acute treatment with ML-240 alters the folding vs degradation balance of the ER proteostasis network in such a way that some population of C1264R that is usually degraded is able to be secreted. Another Tg mutation G2320R was shown to be degraded via the proteasome in PLCCL3 thyrocytes, as MG-132 treatment slowed mutant Tg degradation (Menon et al. JBC. 2007), although G2320R degradation was not be exclusively proteasomal. The L2284P Tg mutation exemplified similar results to G2340R where MG-132 slowed degradation. Furthermore, L2284P Tg was not affected by autophagic/lysosomal inhibitors chloroquine and E64 (Tokunaga et al. JBC. 2000), suggesting ERAD more exclusively degrades L2284P. It is unclear which degradation pathway, ERAD or ER-phagy, may be the predominate pathway for C1264R Tg degradation. Furthermore, we do not exclude the possibility that both may be at play and affected by treatment with ML-240.

      We utilized our HEK293 Tg-NLuc cells and screened other proteasomal and lysosomal inhibitors bafilomycin and bortezomib. Neither of these compounds were able to rescue A2234D or C1264R secretion, highlighting that the effect is specific to ML-240 treatment. This new data is now shown in __Fig EV10A,B __and described in the text:

      "To understand whether this rescue in secretion was uniquely linked to VCP inhibition or could be more broadly attributed to blocking Tg degradation, we tested the proteasomal inhibitor bortezomib, and lysosomal inhibitor bafilomycin. Bafilomycin increased WT Tg lysate abundance, and bortezomib significantly increased A2234D lysate abundance, consistent with a role of these degradation processes in Tg PQC (Fig EV10A). When monitoring Tg-NLuc media abundance, neither bafilomycin nor bortezomib significantly altered WT, A2234D, or C1264R abundance (Fig. EV10B). confirming that general inhibition of proteasomal or lysosomal degradation does with rescue mutant Tg secretion."

      __Reviewer #3, Comment #8: __Q6. Continuing from Q5.. At what point and where is VCP/p97 able to affect mutant Tg processing? In line 317, the authors seem to correlate increased VCP association with mutants to their increased secretion. It is not clear how this would result, as engagement with VCP would be in a compartment different to that which supports trafficking and secretion. Could the authors expand on how this might come about. This is also relevant to the ML-240 data in Figure 7. Moreover, VCP is associated with ERAD (as is HerpUD1) rather than ER-phagy and at least in the siRNA raw data, there are also effects from Derlin3 and FAF2 KDs.. both ERAD factors. Some clarity here would be appreciated.

      Our Response: This line of discussion in the text was meant to suggest that, since VCP showed a higher enrichment for mutant Tg, particularly C1264R, it would make sense that inhibiting VCP would have a larger effect on mutant Tg processing as compared to WT Tg. As we saw with the siRNA screening data, suppression of VCP resulted in increased C1264R secretion, while not affecting WT Tg processing. This passage was not intended to suggest that increased VCP association with mutant Tg found within the TRIP dataset was the reason for rescued secretion. These are two different sets of experiments and environments in which these data are captured. We were simply looking for the opportunity to bridge the findings from the two sets of experiments to a single discussion point. Of note, we understand that VCP is associated with ERAD and acts to regulate autophagy. Given that core autophagy machinery is relevant for both bulk autophagy and ER-phagy, we did not want to rule out the fact that VCP inhibition via ML-240 could affect autophagic flux in these experiments (Chou et al. Chemmedchem. 2013; Khaminets et al. Nature. 2015; Hill et al. Nat. Chem. Bio. 2021.)

      It is great that the reviewer also noted that DERL3 and FAF2 knockdown increased C1264R Tg secretion. Since these ERAD factors did not reach the defined threshold in the screen, we did not include further discussion, but this data remains available in Appendix Fig S3. We have updated the manuscript text to clarify the previous points we aimed to make. The text now reads as follows:

      "VCP silencing exclusively affecting mutant Tg corroborates our TRIP dataset, and suggest a more prominent role for VCP in mutant Tg PQC compared to WT. VCP interactions were sparse for WT Tg while they remained more steady throughout the chase period for the mutants (Fig 3H,K)."

      __Reviewer #3, Comment #9: __Q7. There does not appear to be a direct demonstration of Tg-C1264R turnover by ER-phagy (via TEX264). Given the inconsistency with it not being detected by TRIP, while another receptor RTN3 was, but has not impact on Tg-C1264R secretion, perhaps including that data would go some way to demonstrating a fate of ER-phagy (at least partly) for this mutant.

      Our response: We performed follow-up experiments to test interactions with Tg and the wider panel of ER-phagy receptors. We transiently expressed FLAG-tagged CCPG1, RTN3L, and TEX264 in HEK293 cells stably expressing Tg-NLuc and performed FLAG IPs followed by western blot analysis. We found that WT and C1264R Tg were enriched, albeit modestly, in the RTN3L Co-IP compared to control samples expressing GFP. Additionally, we found that WT, A2234D, and C1264R Tg were all enriched with CCPG1 compared to control samples expressing GFP. CCPG1 was found to be a C1264R Tg interactor within our mass spectrometry datasets, along with RTN3. We have now integrated these data into the manuscript as Fig EV8, and updated the manuscript text as follows:

      "Additionally, we monitored Tg enrichment with ER-phagy receptors CCPG1 and RTN3 via Western blot as both were found to be C1264R Tg interactors within our TRIP dataset. RTN3L is found to be the only RTN3 isoform involved in ER turnover via ER-phagy (Grumati et al, 2017). WT and C1264R Tg-NLuc were modestly enriched with RTN3L compared to control samples expressing GFP. Conversely, we found that all Tg variants exhibited modest interactions with CCPG1 compared to control samples expressing GFP, although less than with TEX264 (Fig EV8).

      Together, these data suggest that TEX264, CCPG1, or RTN3L engage with Tg during processing, and CH-associated Tg mutants may be selectively targeted to TEX264. Furthermore, ER-phagy may be considered as a degradative pathway in Tg processing, as other studies have mainly focused on Tg degradation through ERAD (Tokunaga et al, 2000; Menon et al, 2007)."

      Whether the TEX246 recruitment of mutant Tg leads to degradation remains to be tested. When we monitored C1264R Tg degradation by pulse-chase assay (Fig. EV9A), only a small fraction (

      __Reviewer #3, Comment #10: __Q9. The authors provide data that the UPR was not induced by ML-240 at 3hrs (10µM) (Figure 7, supplemental 1). This is in stark contrast to the results of Chou et al (2013) which the authors reference, reporting that ML-240 induced ATF4 and CHOP by 2 hrs at concentrations lower than used here (albeit a different cell type). While not exclusively UPR, could the authors address the potential activation of the integrated stress response (eIF2a phosphorylation, ATF4 and CHOP) in the FRT cells due to ML-240 treatment? If present, is there some link that could this provide an explanation for increased Tg-C1264R secretion? [Basal PERK/UPR activation with mutants.]

      Our Response: Thank you for bringing up this important point. As the reviewer acknowledges, the difference in UPR activation could stem from the different cell lines. Additionally, we measured activation via qPCR, whereas Chou et al. measured via immunoblot. We would like to point out that while we did not observe the upregulation of HSPA5 or ASNS (markers of ATF6 and PERK/ISR activation, respectively) in the presence of short ML-240 treatment (2-3 hr), we did observe the upregulation of DNAJB9 (a marker of IRE1/XBP1s activation).

      To address Reviewer #3's point, we performed further experiments monitoring the potential activation of the ISR in FRT cells due to ML-240 treatment. We treated C1264R Tg-FT FRT cells with ML-240 (10μM) for 2 hours, and monitored eIF2a phosphorylation via immunoblot. Indeed, we observed that ML-240 induced eIF2a phosphorylation compared to cells treated with DMSO. Tunicamycin (1mg/mL) was used a positive control, and showed similar results to ML-240. We have integrated these results into the manuscript, available in Fig EV10C.

      However, we would like to point out that all of these markers represent signs of early UPR inductions. Importantly, our results that HSPA5 transcript levels are not induced suggest that there is only very modest upregulation of ER chaperone levels occurring. Typically, the ER proteostasis network remodeling requires a longer time than the acute 2-4 hr treatment with ML-240. We have updated the manuscript text as follows:

      "Finally, we monitored activation of the unfolded protein response (UPR) in the presence of ML-240 in FRT cells expressing C1264R Tg-FT. Phosphorylation of eIF2a, an activation marker for the PERK arm of the UPR, was induced within 2 hr of ML-240 treatment (Fig EV10C). We further investigated the induction of UPR targets via qRT-PC. HSPA5 and ASNS transcripts, markers of ATF6 and PERK UPR activation respectively, remained unchanged or slightly decreased after 3 hr treatment with ML-240 in C1264R Tg cells (Fig EV10D). Only DNAJB9 transcript expression showed a significant increase in both WT Tg and C2164R Tg FRT cells (Fig EV10D). Moreover, ML-240 did not significantly alter cell viability after 3 hr, as measured by propidium iodide staining (Fig EV10E). Overall, these results highlight that the short ML-240 treatment induces early UPR markers, but the selective rescue of C1264R Tg secretion via ML-240 treatment is unlikely the results of global remodeling of the ER PN due to UPR activation."

      __Reviewer #3, Comment #11: __Are the suggested experiments realistic in terms of time and resources? It would help if you could add an estimated cost and time investment for substantial experiments. Any of the suggested experiments above all use reagents reported in the manuscript and so would presumably incur minimal cost and hopefully time. This reviewer is sympathetic to time and financial constraints and so discussion of the issue could suffice.

      Our response: We have addressed follow-up experiments whenever possible or provided further discussion details where applicable. We are appreciative of Reviewer #3's sympathy for the time and financial constraints that go into this work and addressing manuscript revisions. Unfortunately, the 1st and 2nd authors both left the lab immediately after the reviews were received. Hence, many of the experiments had to be addressed by other lab members joining the project, which took considerably longer than anticipated. We apologize for the long delay with our revisions.

      __Reviewer #3, Comment #12: __Are the data and the methods presented in such a way that they can be reproduced? Yes. The methodology is explained in detail.

      Our Response: Thank you.

      __Reviewer #3, Comment #13: __Are the experiments adequately replicated and statistical analysis adequate? Yes. Relevant information is either in the figure legends or is provided in the source data.

      Our Response: Thank you.

      Minor comments:

      __Reviewer #3, Comment #14: __Are prior studies referenced appropriately? The references are generally appropriate, with a few exceptions of more general references used

      Our Response: Thank you.

      __Reviewer #3, Comment #15: __Are the text and figures clear and accurate? The text is clearly written, and the figures are clear.

      Our Response: Thank you.

      __Reviewer #3, Comment #16: __Do you have suggestions that would help the authors improve the presentation of their data and conclusions? A summary figure comparing the changing profiles of WT and C1264R and the factors implicated for them could be helpful.

      Our Response: We opted not to include a summary figure because the paper and figures area already dense in information.

      __Reviewer #3, Comment #17: __Perhaps include common nomenclature for proteins as well (e.g. HSP5A - BiP, HSP90B1 - Grp94, etc..)

      Our Response: We updated the manuscript throughout to reference common nomenclature or other protein names where applicable at their first mention.

      __Reviewer #3, Comment #18: __Line 317 - our is misspelled

      Our Response: Thank you. We have made this correction.

      __Reviewer #3, Comment #19: __Figure 4 - Supplemental Figure 1 - Legend has text referring to panels J and K, but Figure only goes up to F.

      Our Response: Thank you. This was an error in references to Figure panel lettering and we have since corrected this. Please note that this Figure is now Fig EV6.

      Reviewer #3 (Significance (Required)):

      __Reviewer #3, Comment #20: __

      • Describe the nature and significance of the advance (e.g. conceptual, technical, clinical) for the field.

      • Place the work in the context of the existing literature (provide references, where appropriate).

      Protein-protein interactions are often used to illustrate complexes and functionality, but these provide only snapshots, rather than "movies". There are many datasets out there exploring P-P interactions, but most if not all lack any temporal resolution for the interactions they report. The TRIP method described approaches this from the dynamic perspective - identifying the transient interactions formed by folding nascent chains with proteins that aid in their maturation and trafficking, or degradation. This represents an important technical advance in our ability to dynamically monitor protein interactions. The use of Tg mutants is valuable and perhaps this will lead to new perspectives on how to rescue it or other pathophysiological mutants with loss of function phenotypes.

      • State what audience might be interested in and influenced by the reported findings.

      This work should appeal to a broad audience within cell biology, particularly as the TRIP technique is attempting to address a fundamental question - what interactions form during the biogenesis/lifetime of a protein. Moreover, the effort to try to understand the different interactions formed with pathologically relevant mutant proteins as a strategy to try to rescue functionality, is a valuable exercise of this approach.

      • Define your field of expertise with a few keywords to help the authors contextualize your point of view. Indicate if there are any parts of the paper that you do not have sufficient expertise to evaluate.

      ER quality control

      Our Response: We thank reviewer #3 for this positive endorsement.

      Reviewer #4 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      Summary

      In this manuscript, Wright et al. developed an approach (termed TRIP) that allowed to map the temporal changes in the interaction landscape of a newly synthesized protein of interest. Using their TRIP approach, the authors found that the extensive interactions of thyroglobulin (Tg) with the proteostasis network (PN) during its passage through the secretory pathway were profoundly altered in response to disease-causing mutations (e.g. C1264R). The authors cross-validated their findings with a focus RNAi screen monitoring the cellular and secreted abundance of Tg variants upon deletion of PN components. In subsequent experiments the authors focused on two hits, VCP and TEX264, for which they confirmed their inhibitory effect on the secretion of Tg C1264R. Importantly, the authors found that TEX264 increasingly interacts with the Tg mutant and that pharmacological inhibition of VCP yielded the same phenotype than depletion of VCP. Overall, Wright and colleagues__ established an elegant method to map protein interaction in a time-resolved manner and demonstrated its value by the analysis of disease-related Tg mutants__. Hence, this work has the potential to serve as a rich resource for Tg-related research and as a powerful new tool to examine protein interactions. However, several concerns remain.

      Our response: Thank you to reviewer #4 for their valuable feedback and positive assessment. We addressed all comments in detail below.

      Major points:

      __Reviewer #4, Comment #1: __Overall, the TRIP workflow is quite difficult to understand at a first glance - even for a reader with a background in proteomics, biochemistry and cell biology. The authors may want to improve the description of the TRIP methodology and explain in more detail what the individual components and steps are good for. Along the same line, from the main text and the figure legend it was not clear that Tg was actually Flag-tagged. However, without this information it is difficult to follow the workflow. While Figure 1A is certainly helpful, the bulky graphics are deflecting the reader's attention. A more schematic version might be more informative.

      Our Response: Thank you for this feedback, which was also mirrored by Reviewer #2 (comment 10). We have made significant updates to clarify Fig 1 to provide more detail and eliminate some of unnecessary bulky graphics. We also expanded the schematic for the TRIP workflow in Fig 2A and we aligned all symbols used. Furthermore, we have edited the text to describe the workflow more clearly:

      "To develop the time-resolved interactome profiling method, we envisioned a two-stage enrichment strategy utilizing epitope-tagged immunoprecipitation coupled with pulsed biorthogonal unnatural amino acid labeling and functionalization (Fig 1A). Cells can be pulse labeled with homopropargylglycine (Hpg) to synchronize newly synthesized populations of protein. After pulsed labeling with Hpg, samples can then be collected across time points throughout a chase period (Fig 1A, Box 1) (Kiick et al, 2001; Beatty et al, 2006). The Hpg alkyne incorporated into the newly synthesized population of protein can be conjugated to biotin using copper-catalyzed alkyne-azide cycloaddition (CuAAC) (Fig 1A, Box 2). Subsequently, the first stage of the enrichment strategy can take place where the client protein of interest is globally captured and enriched using epitope-tagged immunoprecipitation, followed by elution (Fig 1A, Box 3). The second enrichment step can then utilize a biotin-streptavidin pulldown to capture the Hpg pulse-labeled, and CuAAC conjugated population, enriching samples into time-resolved fractions (Fig 1A, Box 4) (Li et al, 2020; Thompson et al, 2019)."

      Additionally, we have improved text to very clearly state that for the TRIP experiments Tg is FLAG-tagged and this epitope tag is required for the two-stage enrichment strategy. As one small example:

      "Thyroglobulin was chosen as the model secretory client protein. We generated isogenic Fischer rat thyroid cells (FRT) cells that stably expressed FLAG-tagged Tg (Tg-FT), including WT or mutant variants (A2234D and C1264R) (Fig EV1)"

      "Furthermore, the C-terminal FLAG-tag and Hpg labeling are necessary for this two-stage enrichment strategy, and DSP crosslinking is necessary to capture these interactions after stringent wash steps (Fig 1D, Fig EV2)."

      __Reviewer #4, Comment #2: __To what extend do the difference in protein abundance between Tg WT and Tg C1264R contribute to the increase binding of their interactors (e.g., HSP5 and PDIA4). The authors should perform a TRIP coupled immunoblot analysis where WT and Mutant are loaded side-by-side on the SDS-PAGE.

      Our Response: As Reviewer #3 (comment 5) had a similar inquiry, we provide the same response as listed above:

      We do not foresee an impact from level of Tg expression on the profiles obtained by TRIP. We were able to identify distinct profiles because we processed the data and normalized it based on the relative Tg amount. For example, while WT and A2234D Tg are expressed at similar levels intracellularly, we ere able to identify distinct differences in the interaction profiles across the two constructs. When developing FRT clones, we selected those that were expressed at similar levels and, therefore, did not have the capability to directly test differences, if any, in observed profiles that may be the result of different expression levels of the same Tg construct. Furthermore, Tg can make up 50% of all protein content within thyroid tissue (Di Jeso & Arvan, 2016). As such, thyroid cells are adept at maintaining the balance of QC machinery to process thyroid. Therefore, we do not anticipate that the amount of Tg expressed in TRIP experiments would have a significant impact on the profiles that we were able to observe.

      __Reviewer #4, Comment #3: __While the RNAi screen was done with pooled siRNA, it is not clear what was used for the RNAi validation experiments shown in Figure 5. This should be done by individual siRNA and not the same pooled reagents as used for the screen.

      Our Response: Similarly, pooled siRNAs were initially utilized for the data shown in Figure 5. The RNAi screen utilized siRNAs optimized for human cells, where as those found for Figure 5 were for rat cells. For the revisions, we performed control experiments with individual siRNAs, which are now shown in Fig EV7J,K. While we did not find that any one single siRNA recapitulated the full phenotype, we did find that several single siRNAs for VCP and TEX264 at least partially restored the observed phenotype of increased C1264R Tg secretion. This result is expected given that we reasoned the siRNAs are likely providing an additive effect contributing to the observed phenotypes. We provided these single siRNA control experiments in Fig EV7J,K, and updated the manuscript text as follows:

      "Several individual VCP and TEX264 siRNAs were able to partially recapitulate these increased secretion phenotype on C1264R Tg-FT, confirming that the effect is mediated by the respective gene silencing (Fig EV7J,K)."

      Reviewer #4, Comment #4: __In Figure 5A it is not clear which band was used to quantify the effect of NAPA reduction. Also, this analysis lacks normalization to an unrelated protein or loading control. Moreover, the authors should also examine the effect of the siRNA targets shown in Figure 5C for Tg WT and not only the mutant.__

      Our Response: The uppermost band in Fig 5A was used for quantification. We added a red asterisk similar to that found in Fig 5C to denote this lower back in the lysate panel(s) as a non-specific background band found within the Western blot. These data are the result of immunoprecipitations of both cell lysate and medium content, as such there is no applicable loading control that can be used within the western blots. For experiments, cell amounts were normalized by seeding and subsequently culturing the same amount of cells, as denoted within the Materials and Methods - FRT siRNA validation studies section of the manuscript. Furthermore, there are no loading controls that are easily utilized for analyzing cell culture medium. We have further clarified the Fig 5 caption to provide clearer experimental detail:

      "(A and B) Western blot analysis (A) and quantification (B) of WT Tg-FT secretion from FRT cells transfected with select siRNAs hits from initial screening data set. Red asterisk denotes a non-specific background band within the western blot. Cells were transfected with 25nM siRNAs for 36 hrs, media exchanged and conditions for 4 hrs, Tg-FT was immunoprecipitated from lysate and media samples, and Tg-FT amounts were analyzed via immunoblotting. N = 6.

      (C and D) Western blot analysis (C) and quantification (D) of C1264R Tg-FT secretion from FRT cells transfected with select siRNA hits from the initial screening data set. Red asterisk denotes a non-specific background band within the western blot. Cells were transfected with 25nM siRNAs for 36 hrs, media exchanged and conditions for 8 hrs, Tg-FT was immunoprecipitated from lysate and media samples, and Tg-FT amounts were analyzed via immunoblotting. All statistical testing performed using an unpaired student's t-test with Welch's correction. *pFinally, as the siRNA targets shown in Fig 5C were shown to be hits exclusively for C1264R Tg-FT we did not believe it was necessary to follow-up on these with WT Tg-FT. Similarly, we did not follow-up on hits that were exclusive to WT Tg-FT with C1264R and A2234D Tg-FT.

      __Reviewer #4, Comment #5: __The authors should also test for the binding of RTN3 to Tg WT and mutant - in particular in comparison to TEX264. This would be important in the context that only RTN3 but not TEX264 was detected in the TRIP approach. Do the authors also detect VCP and LC3B in their pulldowns?

      Our response: Please also see Reviewer #3, comment 9, who made a similar point.

      We performed follow-up experiments to test interactions with Tg and the wider panel of ER-phagy receptors. We transiently expressed FLAG-tagged CCPG1, RTN3L, and TEX264 in HEK293 cells stably expressing Tg-NLuc and performed FLAG IPs followed by western blot analysis. We found that WT and C1264R Tg were enriched, albeit modestly, in the RTN3L Co-IP compared to control samples expressing GFP. Additionally, we found that WT, A2234D, and C1264R Tg were all enriched with CCPG1 compared to control samples expressing GFP. CCPG1 was found to be a C1264R Tg interactor within our mass spectrometry datasets, along with RTN3. We have now integrated these data into the manuscript as Fig EV8, and updated the manuscript text as follows:

      "Additionally, we monitored Tg enrichment with ER-phagy receptors CCPG1 and RTN3 via Western blot as both were found to be C1264R Tg interactors within our TRIP dataset. RTN3L is found to be the only RTN3 isoform involved in ER turnover via ER-phagy (Grumati et al, 2017). WT and C1264R Tg-NLuc were modestly enriched with RTN3L compared to control samples expressing GFP. Conversely, we found that all Tg variants exhibited modest interactions with CCPG1 compared to control samples expressing GFP, although less than with TEX264 (Fig EV8).

      Together, these data suggest that TEX264, CCPG1, or RTN3L engage with Tg during processing, and CH-associated Tg mutants may be selectively targeted to TEX264. Furthermore, ER-phagy may be considered as a degradative pathway in Tg processing, as other studies have mainly focused on Tg degradation through ERAD (Tokunaga et al, 2000; Menon et al, 2007)."

      Regarding VCP, we can detect it routinely in our AP-MS experiment as presented previously (Wright et al. 2021), and here in Fig 3, Appendix Fig S1. However, we have not been able to detect interactions via western blot, which may be attributed to the increased sensitivity that LC-MS offers. We have not probed for LC3 interactions via western blot as we did not detect it by LC-MS either, but we identified several lysosomal and other autophagy-related components previously (Wright et al. 2021), and here shown in Appendix Fig S1 and Fig EV5C.

      __Reviewer #4, Comment #6: __The effect of TEX264 depletion on Tg secretion should be confirmed by TEX263 KO experiments. Do the authors observe a similar increase in secreted Tg C1264R in BafA1- or SAR405-treated cells? Moreover, the authors should show that Tg C1264R is actually delivered to lysosomes using biochemical assays such as LysoIP or colocalization experiments.

      Our response: To address this concern, we generated stable TEX264 knockout FRT cell lines by CRISPR, and probed several clones for their impact on Tg secretion. We found that TEX264 knockout did not recapitulate the increase in C1264R Tg secretion observed with transient siRNA knockout. While disappointing, these results are not necessarily surprising, considering that prolonged TEX264 knockout may lead the cell to adapt compensation mechanisms by modulating other proteostasis factors and/or autophagy machinery.

      We performed experiments utilizing the autophagy inhibitor Bafilomycin A1, and have now included these results with the manuscript available in Fig EV10A,B. We found that BafA1 treatment led to the accumulation of WT Tg in the lysate but not for the C1264R Tg. We updated the manuscript text to accompany these data as follows:

      "To understand whether this rescue in secretion was uniquely linked to VCP inhibition or could be more broadly attributed to blocking Tg degradation, we tested the proteasomal inhibitor bortezomib, and lysosomal inhibitor bafilomycin. Bafilomycin increased WT Tg lysate abundance, and bortezomib significantly increased A2234D lysate abundance, consistent with a role of these degradation processes in Tg PQC (Fig EV10A). When monitoring Tg-NLuc media abundance, neither bafilomycin nor bortezomib significantly altered WT, A2234D, or C1264R abundance (Fig. EV10B). confirming that general inhibition of proteasomal or lysosomal degradation does with rescue mutant Tg secretion."

      These results raise the possibility that the mutant Tg interaction with TEX264 may not lead to active autophagic degradation of mutant Tg. This is also consistent with the slow degradation of C1264R Tg observed in the pulse-chase experiment in Fig EV9A. Whether the TEX246 recruitment of mutant Tg leads to degradation or assumes an alternative function, for example, intracellular sequestration, remains to be tested. Importantly, we have refrained from making claims in the manuscript that C1264R Tg is delivered to the lysosome but have presented data showing that it interacts with ER-phagy-related components and have further speculated on the possibility how autophagy could play a role in Tg processing.

      Thank you for the LysoIP suggestion. Ongoing work in the lab is addressing this question and experiments suggested by the reviewer, but this is better reserved for a follow-up manuscript.

      __Reviewer #4, Comment #7: __Figure 7A and 7C lack loading controls. The quantification shown in Figure 7B and 7D should be normalized to this control. Since VCP activity is often coupled to the of the proteasome, the authors should check whether blocking the proteasome yields a similar effect than ML-240.

      Our Response: Like Fig 5A discussed above (Reviewer #4, comment 4), these data are the result of immunoprecipitations from cell lysate and medium. As a result, there is not applicable loading control that can be used within the western blots. For experiments, cell amounts were normalized by seeding and subsequently culturing the same amount of cells, as denoted within the Materials and Methods - FRT siRNA validation studies section of the manuscript and Material and Methods - VCP pharmacological inhibition studies.

      Regarding the effect of proteasome inhibition, we tested whether bortezomib treatment can increase C1264R Tg secretion. We found that bortezomib led to a small but significant increase in A2234D Tg accumulation in the lysate, but did not increase secretion of Tg for WT or any of the mutant variants. This new data is shown in Fig EV10A,B. We updated the text as follow:

      "To understand whether this rescue in secretion was uniquely linked to VCP inhibition or could be more broadly attributed to blocking Tg degradation, we tested the proteasomal inhibitor bortezomib, and lysosomal inhibitor bafilomycin. Bafilomycin increased WT Tg lysate abundance, and bortezomib significantly increased A2234D lysate abundance, consistent with a role of these degradation processes in Tg PQC (Fig EV10A). When monitoring Tg-NLuc media abundance, neither bafilomycin nor bortezomib significantly altered WT, A2234D, or C1264R abundance (Fig. EV10B). confirming that general inhibition of proteasomal or lysosomal degradation does with rescue mutant Tg secretion."

      __Reviewer #4, Comment #8: __With regard to Figure 7 - Figure supplement 1: The authors should monitor the effect of ML-240 on Tg secretion such that WT and C1264R mutants are directly compared (side-by-side on the same immunoblot). Otherwise, it is difficult to claim that ML-240 rescues the secretion of the mutant.

      Our response: The reviewer is referring to the S35 pulse-chase experiments now shown in Fig EV9. We would like to clarify that these images are not immunoblots but autoradiographs. Even though the samples for WT and C1264R Tg were loaded onto separate gels, the gels were imaged at the same time and are therefore directly comparable. Regardless, the more meaningful information that can be gleaned from these experiments are the absolute rates of protein secretion and degradation and how they change in response to ML-240 treatment. The scale in the quantifications (0 - 100%) is the same and corresponds to the total amount of WT or C1264R Tg that is labeled with 35S during the 30 min pulse. Importantly, we found that C1264R Tg-FT secretion is significantly increased in the presence of ML-240, changing from

      __Reviewer #4, Comment #9: __How did ML-240 affect the ER-phagy components (in particular RTN3) in the TRIP analysis of Tg C1264R (Figure 7G-L)?

      Our response: This is a great discussion point raised by reviewer #4. We have updated the manuscript text to discuss in more detail changes in interactions with degradation components, especially with proteasomal degradation machinery (Fig 7M,N). The manuscript text now reads as follows:

      "The most striking interaction changes occurred with proteasomal degradation components, which remained steady until 1.5 hr, but then abruptly declined with ML-240 treatment at later time points (Fig 7M,N). This decline tracks with changes to the glycan processing machinery, highlighting that the coordination between N-glycosylation and diverting Tg away from ERAD may be a key to the rescue mechanism."

      Minor points:

      __Reviewer #4, Comment #10: __The candidate labeling in Figure 3 - Figure supplement 2 and 3 is too small und unreadable. The authors should provide a higher resolution of these figures or increase the font.

      Our response: These figures are now in the Appendix and we have edited this figure to provide higher resolution.

      Reviewer #4 (Significance (Required)):

      Please see above

    1. Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In the present study, the authors aimed to achieve a better understanding of the mechanisms underlying the attentional blink, that is, a deficit in processing the second of two target stimuli when they appear in rapid succession. Specifically, they used a concurrent detection and identification task in- and outside of the attentional blink and decoupled effects of perceptual sensitivity and response bias using a novel signal detection model. They conclude that the attentional blink selectively impairs perceptual sensitivity but not response bias, and link established EEG markers of the attentional blink to deficits in stimulus detection (N2p, P3) and discrimination (fronto-parietal high-beta coherence), respectively. Taken together, their study suggests distinct mechanisms mediating detection and discrimination deficits in the attentional blink.

      Strengths:

      Major strengths of the present study include its innovative approach to investigating the mechanisms underlying the attentional blink, an elegant, carefully calibrated experimental paradigm, a novel signal detection model, and multifaceted data analyses using state-of-the-art model comparisons and robust statistical tests. The study appears to have been carefully conducted and the overall conclusions seem warranted given the results. In my opinion, the manuscript is a valuable contribution to the current literature on the attentional blink. Moreover, the novel paradigm and signal detection model are likely to stimulate future research.

      Weaknesses:

      Weaknesses of the present manuscript mainly concern the negligence of some relevant literature, unclear hypotheses, potentially data-driven analyses, relatively low statistical power, potential flaws in the EEG methods, and the absence of a discussion of limitations. In the following, I will list some major and minor concerns in detail.

      Major points

      Hypotheses:<br /> I appreciate the multifaceted, in-depth analysis of the given dataset including its high amount of different statistical tests. However, neither the Introduction nor the Methods contain specific statistical hypotheses. Moreover, many of the tests (e.g., correlations) rely on selected results of previous tests. It is unclear how many of the tests were planned a priori, how many more were performed, and how exactly corrections for multiple tests were implemented. Thus, I find it difficult to assess the robustness of the results.

      Power:<br /> Some important null findings may result from the rather small sample sizes of N = 24 for behavioral and N = 18 for ERP analyses. For example, the correlation between detection and discrimination d' deficits across participants (r=0.39, p=0.059) (p. 12, l. 263) and the attentional blink effect on the P1 component (p=0.050, no test statistic) (p. 14, 301) could each have been significant with one more participant. In my opinion, such results should not be interpreted as evidence for the absence of effects.

      Neural basis of the attentional blink:<br /> The introduction (e.g., p. 4, l. 56-76) and discussion (e.g., p. 19, 427-447) do not incorporate the insights from the highly relevant recent review by Zivony & Lamy (2022), which is only cited once (p. 19, l. 428). Moreover, the sections do not mention some relevant ERP studies of the attentional blink (e.g., Batterink et al., 2012; Craston et al., 2009; Dell'Acqua et al., 2015; Dellert et al., 2022; Eiserbeck et al., 2022; Meijs et al., 2018).

      Detection versus discrimination:<br /> Concerning the neural basis of detection versus discrimination (e.g., p. 6, l. 98-110; p. 18, l. 399-412), relevant existing literature (e.g., Broadbent & Broadbent, 1987; Hillis & Brainard, 2007; Koivisto et al., 2017; Straube & Fahle, 2011; Wiens et al., 2023) is not included.

      Pooling of lags and lag 1 sparing:<br /> I wonder why the authors chose to include 5 different lags when they later pooled early (100, 300 ms) and late (700, 900 ms) lags, and whether this pooling is justified. This is important because T2 at lag 1 (100 ms) is typically "spared" (high accuracy) while T2 at lag 3 (300 ms) shows the maximum AB (for reviews, see, e.g., Dux & Marois, 2009; Martens & Wyble, 2010). Interestingly, this sparing was not observed here (p. 43, Figure 2). Nevertheless, considering the literature and the research questions at hand, it is questionable whether lag 1 and 3 should be pooled.

      Discrimination in the attentional blink<br /> Concerning the claims that previous attentional blink studies conflated detection and discrimination (p. 6, l. 111-114; p. 18, l. 416), there is a recent ERP study (Dellert et al., 2022) in which participants did not perform a discrimination task for the T2 stimuli. Moreover, since the relevance of all stimuli except T1 was uncertain in this study, irrelevant distractors could not be filtered out (cf. p. 19, l. 437). Under these conditions, the attentional blink was still associated with reduced negativities in the N2 range (cf. p. 19, l. 427-437) but not with a reduced P3 (cf. p. 19, l 439-447).

      General EEG methods:<br /> While most of the description of the EEG preprocessing and analysis (p. 31/32) is appropriate, it also lacks some important information (see, e.g., Keil et al., 2014). For example, it does not include the length of the segments, the type and proportion of artifacts rejected, the number of trials used for averaging in each condition, specific hypotheses, and the test statistics (in addition to p-values).

      EEG filters:<br /> P. 31, l. 728: "The data were (...) bandpass filtered between 0.5 to 18 Hz (...). Next, a bandstop filter from 9-11 Hz was applied to remove the 10 Hz oscillations evoked by the RSVP presentation." These filter settings do not follow common recommendations and could potentially induce filter distortions (e.g., Luck, 2014; Zhang et al., 2024). For example, the 0.5 high-pass filter could distort the slow P3 wave. Mostly, I am concerned about the bandstop filter. Since the authors commendably corrected for RSVP-evoked responses by subtracting T2-absent from T2-present ERPs (p. 31, l. 746), I wonder why the additional filter was necessary, and whether it might have removed relevant peaks in the ERPs of interest.

      Coherence analysis:<br /> P. 33, l. 786: "For subsequent, partial correlation analyses of coherence with behavioral metrics and neural distances (...), we focused on a 300 ms time period (0-300 ms following T2 onset) and high-beta frequency band (20-30 Hz) identified by the cluster-based permutation test (Fig. 5A-C)." I wonder whether there were any a priori criteria for the definition and selection of such successive analyses. Given the many factors (frequency bands, hemispheres) in the analyses and the particular shape of the cluster (p. 49, Fig 5C), this focus seems largely data-driven. It remains unclear how many such tests were performed and whether the results (e.g., the resulting weak correlation of r = 0.22 in one frequency band and one hemisphere in one part of a complexly shaped cluster; p. 15, l. 327) can be considered robust.

      References<br /> Batterink, L., Karns, C. M., & Neville, H. (2012). Dissociable mechanisms supporting awareness: The P300 and gamma in a linguistic attentional blink task. Cerebral Cortex, 22(12), 2733-2744. https://doi.org/10.1093/cercor/bhr346<br /> Broadbent, D. E., & Broadbent, M. H. P. (1987). From detection to identification: Response to multiple targets in rapid serial visual presentation. Perception & Psychophysics, 42(2), 105-113. https://doi.org/10.3758/BF03210498<br /> Craston, P., Wyble, B., Chennu, S., & Bowman, H. (2009). The attentional blink reveals serial working memory encoding: Evidence from virtual and human event-related potentials. Journal of Cognitive Neuroscience, 21(3), 550-566. https://doi.org/10.1162/jocn.2009.21036<br /> Dell'Acqua, R., Dux, P. E., Wyble, B., Doro, M., Sessa, P., Meconi, F., & Jolicœur, P. (2015). The attentional blink impairs detection and delays encoding of visual information: Evidence from human electrophysiology. Journal of Cognitive Neuroscience, 27(4), 720-735. https://doi.org/10.1162/jocn_a_00752<br /> Dellert, T., Krebs, S., Bruchmann, M., Schindler, S., Peters, A., & Straube, T. (2022). Neural correlates of consciousness in an attentional blink paradigm with uncertain target relevance. NeuroImage, 264C, 119679. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.neuroimage.2022.119679<br /> Dux, P. E., & Marois, R. (2009). The attentional blink: A review of data and theory. Attention, Perception, & Psychophysics, 71(8), 1683-1700. https://doi.org/10.3758/APP.71.8.1683<br /> Hillis, J. M., & Brainard, D. H. (2007). Distinct mechanisms mediate visual detection and identification. Current Biology, 17(19), 1714-1719. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cub.2007.09.012<br /> Keil, A., Debener, S., Gratton, G., Junghöfer, M., Kappenman, E. S., Luck, S. J., Luu, P., Miller, G. A., & Yee, C. M. (2014). Committee report: Publication guidelines and recommendations for studies using electroencephalography and magnetoencephalography. Psychophysiology, 51(1), 1-21. https://doi.org/10.1111/psyp.12147<br /> Koivisto, M., Grassini, S., Salminen-Vaparanta, N., & Revonsuo, A. (2017). Different electrophysiological correlates of visual awareness for detection and identification. Journal of Cognitive Neuroscience, 29(9), 1621-1631. https://doi.org/10.1162/jocn_a_01149<br /> Luck, S. J. (2014). An introduction to the event-related potential technique. MIT Press.<br /> Martens, S., & Wyble, B. (2010). The attentional blink: Past, present, and future of a blind spot in perceptual awareness. Neuroscience & Biobehavioral Reviews, 34(6), 947-957. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.neubiorev.2009.12.005<br /> Meijs, E. L., Slagter, H. A., de Lange, F. P., & Gaal, S. van. (2018). Dynamic interactions between top-down expectations and conscious awareness. Journal of Neuroscience, 38(9), 2318-2327. https://doi.org/10.1523/JNEUROSCI.1952-17.2017<br /> Straube, S., & Fahle, M. (2011). Visual detection and identification are not the same: Evidence from psychophysics and fMRI. Brain and Cognition, 75(1), 29-38. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.bandc.2010.10.004<br /> Wiens, S., Andersson, A., & Gravenfors, J. (2023). Neural electrophysiological correlates of detection and identification awareness. Cognitive, Affective, & Behavioral Neuroscience. https://doi.org/10.3758/s13415-023-01120-5<br /> Zhang, G., Garrett, D. R., & Luck, S. J. (2024). Optimal filters for ERP research II: Recommended settings for seven common ERP components. Psychophysiology, n/a(n/a), e14530. https://doi.org/10.1111/psyp.14530

    2. Author response:

      Reviewer #1: 

      Summary:

      In this study, the authors used a multi-alternative decision task and a multidimensional signal-detection model to gain further insight into the cause of perceptual impairments during the attentional blink. The model-based analyses of behavioural and EEG data show that such perceptual failures can be unpacked into distinct deficits in visual detection and discrimination, with visual detection being linked to the amplitude of late ERP components (N2P and P3) and discrimination being linked to the coherence of fronto-parietal brain activity.

      Strengths:

      The main strength of this paper lies in the fact that it presents a novel perspective on the cause of perceptual failures during the attentional blink. The multidimensional signaldetection modelling approach is explained clearly, and the results of the study show that this approach offers a powerful method to unpack behavioural and EEG data into distinct processes of detection and discrimination.

      Weaknesses:

      (1.1) While the model-based analyses are compelling, the paper also features some analyses that seem misguided, or, at least, insufficiently motivated and explained. Specifically, in the introduction, the authors raise the suggestion that the attentional blink could be due to a reduction in sensitivity or a response bias. The suggestion that a response bias could play a role seems misguided, as any response bias would be expected to be constant across lags, while the attentional blink effect is only observed at short lags. Thus, it is difficult to understand why the authors would think that a response bias could explain the attentional blink.

      A deficit in T2 identification accuracy could arise from either sensitivity or criterion effects; the criterion effect may manifest as a choice bias. For example, in short T1-T2 lag trials, when T2 closely follows T1, participants may adopt a more conservative choice criterion for reporting the presence of T2. Moreover, criterion effects need not be uniform across lags: A participant could infer the T1-T2 lag interval based on various factors, including trial length, thereby permitting them to adjust their choice criterion variably across different lags. We will provide a more detailed illustration of this claim in the revision.

      (1.2) A second point of concern regards the way in which the measures for detection and discrimination accuracy were computed. If I understand the paper correctly, a correct detection was defined as either correctly identifying T2 (i.e., reporting CW or CCW if T2 was CW or CCW, respectively, see Figure 2B), or correctly reporting T2's absence (a correct rejection). Here, it seems that one should also count a misidentification (i.e., incorrect choice of CW or CCW when T2 was present) as a correct detection, because participants apparently did detect T2, but failed to judge/remember its orientation properly in case of a misidentification. Conversely, the manner in which discrimination performance is computed also raises questions. Here, the authors appear to compute accuracy as the average proportion of T2-present trials on which participants selected the correct response option for T2, thus including trials in which participants missed T2 entirely. Thus, a failure to detect T2 is now counted as a failure to discriminate T2. Wouldn't a more proper measure of discrimination accuracy be to compute the proportion of correct discriminations for trials in which participants detected T2?

      Detection and discrimination accuracies were computed with precisely the same procedure, and under the same conditions, as described by the Reviewer (underlined text, above). We regret our poor description; we will improve upon it in the revised manuscript.

      (1.3) My last point of critique is that the paper offers little if any guidance on how the inferred distinction between detection and discrimination can be linked to existing theories of the attentional blink. The discussion mostly focuses on comparisons to previous EEG studies, but it would be interesting to know how the authors connect their findings to extant, mechanistic accounts of the attentional blink. A key question here is whether the finding of dissociable processes of detection and discrimination would also hold with more meaningful stimuli in an identification task (e.g., the canonical AB task of identifying two letters shown amongst digits). There is evidence to suggest that meaningful stimuli are categorized just as quickly as they are detected (Grill-Spector & Kanwisher, 2005; Grill-Spector K, Kanwisher N. Visual recognition: as soon as you know it is there, you know what it is. Psychol Sci. 2005 Feb;16(2):152-60. doi: 10.1111/j.0956-7976.2005.00796.x. PMID: 15686582.). Does that mean that the observed distinction between detection and discrimination would only apply to tasks in which the targets consist of otherwise meaningless visual elements, such as lines of different orientations?

      Our results are consistent with previous literature suggested by the Reviewer. Specifically, we do not claim that detection and discrimination are sequential processes; in fact, we modeled them as concurrent computations (Figs. 3A-B). Yet, our results suggest that these processes possess distinct neural bases. We have discussed this idea briefly in the Discussion section (e.g., “Yet, we found no evidence for these two computations being sequential…”). We will discuss this further in the revised manuscript in the context of previous literature.

      Reviewer #2:

      Summary:

      The authors had two aims: First, to decompose the attentional blink (AB) deficit into the two components of signal detection theory; sensitivity and bias. Second, the authors aimed to assess the two subcomponents of sensitivity; detection and discrimination. They observed that the AB is only expressed in sensitivity. Furthermore, detection and discrimination were doubly dissociated. Detection modulated N2p and P3 ERP amplitude, but not frontoparietal beta-band coherence, whereas this pattern was reversed for discrimination.

      Strengths:

      The experiment is elegantly designed, and the data - both behavioral and electrophysiological - are aptly analyzed. The outcomes, in particular the dissociation between detection and discrimination blinks, are consistently and clearly supported by the results. The discussion of the results is also appropriately balanced.

      Weaknesses:

      (2.1) The lack of an effect of stimulus contrast does not seem very surprising from what we know of the nature of AB already. Low-level perceptual factors are not thought to cause AB. This is fine, as there are also other, novel findings reported, but perhaps the authors could bolster the importance of these (null) findings by referring to AB-specific papers, if there are indeed any, that would have predicted different outcomes in this regard.

      While there is consensus that the low-level perceptual factors are not affected by the attentional blink, other studies may suggest evidence to the contrary (e.g., Chua et al, Percept. Psychophys., 2005). We will highlight the significance of our findings in the context of such conflicting evidence in literature, in the revised manuscript.

      (2.2) On an analytical note, the ERP analysis could be finetuned a little more. The task design does not allow measurement of the N2pc or N400 components, which are also relevant to the AB, but the N1 component could additionally be analyzed. In doing so, I would furthermore recommend selecting more lateral electrode sites for both the N1, as well as the P1. Both P1 and N1 are likely not maximal near the midline, where the authors currently focused their P1 analysis.

      We will incorporate these additional analyses in the revised manuscript.

      (2.3) Impact & Context:

      The results of this study will likely influence how we think about selective attention in the context of the AB phenomenon. However, I think its impact could be further improved by extending its theoretical framing. In particular, there has been some recent work on the nature of the AB deficit, showing that it can be discrete (all-or-none) and gradual (Sy et al., 2021; Karabay et al., 2022, both in JEP: General). These different faces of target awareness in the AB may be linked directly to the detection and discrimination subcomponents that are analyzed in the present paper. I would encourage the authors to discuss this potential link and comment on the bearing of the present work on these behavioural findings.

      Thank you. We will discuss our findings in the context of these recent studies.

      Reviewer #3:

      Summary:

      In the present study, the authors aimed to achieve a better understanding of the mechanisms underlying the attentional blink, that is, a deficit in processing the second of two target stimuli when they appear in rapid succession. Specifically, they used a concurrent detection and identification task in- and outside of the attentional blink and decoupled effects of perceptual sensitivity and response bias using a novel signal detection model. They conclude that the attentional blink selectively impairs perceptual sensitivity but not response bias, and link established EEG markers of the attentional blink to deficits in stimulus detection (N2p, P3) and discrimination (fronto-parietal high-beta coherence), respectively. Taken together, their study suggests distinct mechanisms mediating detection and discrimination deficits in the attentional blink.

      Strengths:

      Major strengths of the present study include its innovative approach to investigating the mechanisms underlying the attentional blink, an elegant, carefully calibrated experimental paradigm, a novel signal detection model, and multifaceted data analyses using state-of-theart model comparisons and robust statistical tests. The study appears to have been carefully conducted and the overall conclusions seem warranted given the results. In my opinion, the manuscript is a valuable contribution to the current literature on the attentional blink. Moreover, the novel paradigm and signal detection model are likely to stimulate future research.

      Weaknesses:

      Weaknesses of the present manuscript mainly concern the negligence of some relevant literature, unclear hypotheses, potentially data-driven analyses, relatively low statistical power, potential flaws in the EEG methods, and the absence of a discussion of limitations. In the following, I will list some major and minor concerns in detail.

      Major points

      (3.1) Hypotheses:

      I appreciate the multifaceted, in-depth analysis of the given dataset including its high amount of different statistical tests. However, neither the Introduction nor the Methods contain specific statistical hypotheses. Moreover, many of the tests (e.g., correlations) rely on selected results of previous tests. It is unclear how many of the tests were planned a priori, how many more were performed, and how exactly corrections for multiple tests were implemented. Thus, I find it difficult to assess the robustness of the results.

      As outlined in the Introduction, we hypothesized that neural computations associated with target detection would be characterized by regional neuronal markers (e.g., parietal or occipital ERPs), whereas computations linked to feature discrimination may involve neural coordination across multiple brain regions (e.g. fronto-parietal coherence). We planned and conducted our statistical tests based on this hypothesis. All multiple comparison corrections (e.g., Bonferroni-Holm correction, see Methods) were performed separately for each class of analyses. We will clarify these hypotheses and provide further details in the revised manuscript.

      (3.2) Power:

      Some important null findings may result from the rather small sample sizes of N = 24 for behavioral and N = 18 for ERP analyses. For example, the correlation between detection and discrimination d' deficits across participants (r=0.39, p=0.059) (p. 12, l. 263) and the attentional blink effect on the P1 component (p=0.050, no test statistic) (p. 14, 301) could each have been significant with one more participant. In my opinion, such results should not be interpreted as evidence for the absence of effects.

      We agree and will revise the manuscript accordingly. We will also report Bayes factor (BF) values, where relevant, to further evaluate these claims.

      (3.3) Neural basis of the attentional blink:

      The introduction (e.g., p. 4, l. 56-76) and discussion (e.g., p. 19, 427-447) do not incorporate the insights from the highly relevant recent review by Zivony & Lamy (2022), which is only cited once (p. 19, l. 428). Moreover, the sections do not mention some relevant ERP studies of the attentional blink (e.g., Batterink et al., 2012; Craston et al., 2009; Dell'Acqua et al., 2015; Dellert et al., 2022; Eiserbeck et al., 2022; Meijs et al., 2018).

      We will motivate and discuss our study in the context of these previous studies. 

      (3.4) Detection versus discrimination:

      Concerning the neural basis of detection versus discrimination (e.g., p. 6, l. 98-110; p. 18, l. 399-412), relevant existing literature (e.g., Broadbent & Broadbent, 1987; Hillis & Brainard, 2007; Koivisto et al., 2017; Straube & Fahle, 2011; Wiens et al., 2023) is not included.

      Thank you for these suggestions. We will include these important studies in our discussion.

      (3.5) Pooling of lags and lags 1 sparing:

      I wonder why the authors chose to include 5 different lags when they later pooled early (100, 300 ms) and late (700, 900 ms) lags, and whether this pooling is justified. This is important because T2 at lag 1 (100 ms) is typically "spared" (high accuracy) while T2 at lag 3 (300 ms) shows the maximum AB (for reviews, see, e.g., Dux & Marois, 2009; Martens & Wyble, 2010). Interestingly, this sparing was not observed here (p. 43, Figure 2). Nevertheless, considering the literature and the research questions at hand, it is questionable whether lag 1 and 3 should be pooled.

      Lag-1 sparing is not always observed in attentional blink studies; there are notable exceptions that do not report such sparing (Hommel et al., Q. J. Exp. Psychol., 2005; Livesay et al., Attention, Percept. Psychophys., 2011). Our statistical tests revealed no significant difference in accuracies between short lag (100 and 300 ms) trials or between long lag (700 and 900 ms) trials but did reveal significant differences between the short and long lag trials (ANOVA, followed by post-hoc tests). To simplify the presentation of the findings, we pooled together the short lag (100 and 300 ms) and, separately, the long lag (700 and 900 ms) trials. We will present these analyses, and clarify the motivation for pooling in the revised manuscript. 

      (3.6) Discrimination in the attentional blink

      Concerning the claims that previous attentional blink studies conflated detection and discrimination (p. 6, l. 111-114; p. 18, l. 416), there is a recent ERP study (Dellert et al., 2022) in which participants did not perform a discrimination task for the T2 stimuli. Moreover, since the relevance of all stimuli except T1 was uncertain in this study, irrelevant distractors could not be filtered out (cf. p. 19, l. 437). Under these conditions, the attentional blink was still associated with reduced negativities in the N2 range (cf. p. 19, l. 427-437) but not with a reduced P3 (cf. p. 19, l 439-447).

      We will address the difference between our findings and those of Dellert et al (2022) in the revised manuscript.

      (3.7) General EEG methods:

      While most of the description of the EEG preprocessing and analysis (p. 31/32) is appropriate, it also lacks some important information (see, e.g., Keil et al., 2014). For example, it does not include the length of the segments, the type and proportion of artifacts rejected, the number of trials used for averaging in each condition, specific hypotheses, and the test statistics (in addition to p-values).

      We regret the oversight. We will include these details in the revised Methods.

      (3.8) EEG filters:

      P. 31, l. 728: "The data were (...) bandpass filtered between 0.5 to 18 Hz (...). Next, a bandstop filter from 9-11 Hz was applied to remove the 10 Hz oscillations evoked by the RSVP presentation." These filter settings do not follow common recommendations and could potentially induce filter distortions (e.g., Luck, 2014; Zhang et al., 2024). For example, the 0.5 high-pass filter could distort the slow P3 wave. Mostly, I am concerned about the bandstop filter. Since the authors commendably corrected for RSVP-evoked responses by subtracting T2-absent from T2-present ERPs (p. 31, l. 746), I wonder why the additional filter was necessary, and whether it might have removed relevant peaks in the ERPs of interest.

      Thank you for this suggestion. We will repeat this analysis by removing these additional filters.

      (3.9) Coherence analysis:

      P. 33, l. 786: "For subsequent, partial correlation analyses of coherence with behavioral metrics and neural distances (...), we focused on a 300 ms time period (0-300 ms following T2 onset) and high-beta frequency band (20-30 Hz) identified by the cluster-based permutation test (Fig. 5A-C)." I wonder whether there were any a priori criteria for the definition and selection of such successive analyses. Given the many factors (frequency bands, hemispheres) in the analyses and the particular shape of the cluster (p. 49, Fig 5C), this focus seems largely data-driven. It remains unclear how many such tests were performed and whether the results (e.g., the resulting weak correlation of r = 0.22 in one frequency band and one hemisphere in one part of a complexly shaped cluster; p. 15, l. 327) can be considered robust.

      Please see responses to comments #3.1 and #3.2 (above). In addition to reporting further details regarding statistical tests and multiple comparisons corrections, we will compute and report Bayes factors to quantify the strength of the evidence for correlations, as appropriate.

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      Reply to the reviewers

      Compared to our initial submission to Review Commons, we have addressed all the reviewers' comments. We have extensively re-written the manuscript to make it clearer to a larger audience. In particular, we have transferred Figure EV1 to Figure 1 with more complete panels and included a scheme (Figure EV3) on the steps of D2R internalization which we measure with live cell imaging. We have added a new paragraph to the start of the Discussion to summarize our main conclusions and reordered the discussion on the possible mechanisms of membrane PUFA enrichment on D2R endocytosis. All the changes in the text are in red for easier comparison with the previous version.

      As suggested by reviewer 1, we have performed additional experiments to test the specificity of the effects of PUFA treatments on D2R endocytosis, reinforcing the results shown in Figure 4 using feeding assays. We show with live cell TIRF imaging and the ppH assay that TfR-SEP endocytosis is not affected (Figure EV5) and that SEP-β2AR endocytosis and βarr2-mCherry recruitment to the plasma membrane are not affected (Figure EV6).

      Reviewer #1

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      *The manuscript, using different live and fixed cell trafficking assays, demonstrates that incorporation of poly-unsaturated, but not saturated, free fatty acids in the membrane phospholipids reduce agonist induced internalization of the D2 dopamine receptor but not the adrenergic beta2 receptors or the transferrin receptor. Pulsed pH (ppH) live microscopy further demonstrated that the reduced internalization by incorporation of free fatty acid was accompanied by a blunted recruitment of Beta-arrestin for the D2R.

      I believe said claims put forward in the manuscript are overall well supported by the data and as such I do not believe that further experiments are necessarily needed to uphold these key claims. Also, the methodology is satisfactorily reported, and statistics are robust, although two-way Anova like used in Fig 1 seems appropriate for Fig 2 and 3*

      We thank the reviewer for his/her positive assessment of our work. We have checked the statistical tests used for all our measures. For Figure 2 and 3 (now 3 and 4) we test for only one factor (PUFA treatment or not) so we ran ordinary one-way ANOVA using Graphpad Prism.

      That said, I suggest that the fixed cell internalization experiments (Fig 2 and 3), which relate the effect on the D2R to B2AR and transferrin are revised. This is important since this is relevant to judge whether the effect is a general or a selective molecular mechanism since this is the one of the three assay which this comparison relies on. Alternatively, I suggest omitting this data and include the B2AR in the Live DERET assay and both B2AR and TfR in the ppH assay. Specifically, my concerns with the fixed cell internalization are: • The analysis is based on counting the number of endosomes, which is not necessarily equivalent to the number of receptors internalized

      The number of puncta, as well as their fluorescence, is reported by the analysis program (written in Matlab2021 and available upon request). We chose to show number of puncta because they reflect more directly the number of labelled endosomes (in Figures 3 and 4). As shown in the figure below, we found slight but significant differences between groups for FLAG-D2R (88.6 % and 87.6 % of average fluorescence in DHA and DPA treated cells compared to control cells), (panel A), and no differences for FLAG-β2AR (panel B). We find a significant decrease in puncta fluorescence for transferrin uptake in cells incubated with DHA (but not DPA) relative to control cells (panel C). However, because we did not detect differences in the number of puncta or in the frequency and amplitude of endocytic vesicle creation events (see below), we still conclude that enrichment with exogenous PUFAs does not affect clathrin mediated endocytosis.

      In conclusion, the most robust measure of endocytosis for this assay is the number of detected puncta per cell rather than their fluorescence.

      • The analysis relies on fully effective stripping of the surface pool of receptors - i.e clustered surface receptors not stripped by the protocol will be assessed as internalized. It is often very difficult to obtain full efficiency of the Flag-tag stripping and this is somewhat expression dependent. • The protocol for the constitutive and agonist induced internalization is different and yet shown on the same absolute graph. Although I take it the microscope gain setting are unaltered between the constitutive and agonist induced internalization I don't believe the quantification can be directly related. This is confusing at the very least. More critically however, the membrane signal from the non-stripped condition of constitutive internalization will likely fully shield internalized receptors in the Rab4 membrane proximal recycling pathway leading to under-estimation of the in the constitutive endocytosis. I believe this methodological limitation underlies the massive relative difference in the constitutive endocytosis between panel 2A,B and 2C,D. For comparison, by a quantitative dual color FACS endocytosis assay, we have previously demonstrated the ligand endocytosis a ~4 fold increased over constitutive (in concert with Fig 2A,B here) (Schmidt et al 20XX). Importantly, high relative variability by this methodology could well shield an actual effect of incorporation of FFAs on the constitutive endocytosis. We thank the reviewer for pointing this difference in the protocol. As a matter of fact, we have not used acid stripping in all the conditions used for the uptake assays (Figures 3 and 4). We apologize for the confusion and we have clarified this point in the Methods section. In early experiments we compared conditions with or without stripping but we concluded from these experiments that indeed, the stripping was not complete. Moreover, we noticed early on that many cells treated with DHA or DPA did not have any detectable cluster (13 cells out of 58 quantified cells treated with DHA after addition of QPL, 12/56 cells treated with DPA, 0/68 for cells treated with vehicle). Stripping the antibody would have made these cells undetectable, biasing the analysis. Therefore, to make our results more consistent we decided to use non-stripping conditions. To detect endosomes specifically, we used a segmentation tool developed earlier (see Rosendale et al.* 2019). This tool is based on wavelet transforms which recognizes dot-like structures. In addition, we excluded from the cell mask the labelled plasma membrane by a mask erosion.

      We agree the design of experiments was not aimed at comparing the effect of PUFA treatment on low levels of constitutive D2R endocytosis. This would require more sensitive assays and be addressed in subsequent studies.

      'Optional' Also, it would be informative to see the ppH Beta-arrestin experiments with the B2AR to assess, whether the putative discrepancy between D2R and B2AR is upstream or downstream of the blunted Beta-arrestin recruitment. To the same point, it would be very informative to assess how the incorporation of the free fatty acids affect receptor signalling, which would also help relate the effect of incorporation of the FFA's in the phospholipids to previous experiment using short term incubation with FFA's

      We have now performed live imaging experiments in HEK293 cells expressing SEP-β2AR, GRK2 and βarr2-mCherry and stimulated with isoproterenol (Figure EV6). We show that the clustering of SEP-β2AR, of βarr2-mCherry, as well as endocytosis, are not affected by treatments with DHA or DPA. In this study, we focused on the early trafficking steps of D2R internalization. It will be interesting in a future study to address its consequences on G protein dependent and independent signaling. Moreover, and for good measure, we performed experiments to assess TfR-SEP endocytosis with the ppH assay. Again, we found no difference between cells treated or not with PUFAs (Figure EV5)

      *References overall seem appropriate although Schmidt et al would be relevant for reference of the constitutive vs agonist induced endocytosis of D2R and B2AR. *

      We have now cited Schmidt et al. 2020 doi 10.1111/bcpt.13274 in the discussion with the following sentences: "D2R also shows constitutive endocytosis (Schmidt et al, 2020) which may be modulated by PUFAs although we did not detect any significant difference in our measures (see Figure 3) which were aimed at detecting high levels of internalization induced by agonists. Further work will be required to specifically examine the effect of PUFAs on constitutive GPCR internalization."

      Overall, the figures are well composed and convey the messages fairly well. Specific point that would strengthen the rigor include: • Chosing actual representative pictures of the quantitative data in Fig 2 and 3 (e.g. hard to see 25 endocytic events in Fig 2A constitutive endo, EtOH)

      We apologize for the confusion. We employ a normalization procedure to account for cell size. In addition, all numbers have been normalized to the condition stimulated with agonist with no PUFA treatment). In fact, we detect in unstimulated cells very few puncta (on average 0.6, range 0-5) compared to 27.3 clusters (range 2-87) in cells stimulated with QPL.

      • Showing actual p values for the statistical comparisons* For easier reading, we have kept the stars convention for the figures but added two tables with all statistical tests and the p values for both main figures and EV figures.

      Moreover, for ease of reading the figures (without consulting the legend repeatedly) it would be very helpful to headline individual panel with what the experiments assesses. Figure 1a and 1b for example can't be distinguished at all before reading the figure legend. Also, y-axis could be more informative on what I measured rather than just giving the unit.

      We have added titles to panels (in particular for Figure 2A,B which correspond to former Figure 1A,B) and we have given new titles to Y axes to make them clearer. We hope that the reading of our figures will now be easier.

      Finally, the figure presentation and description of S1 is very hard to follow. I cannot really make out what is assessed in the different panels.

      We have changed substantially Figure EV1 (now Figure 1) with new presentation of data: all 4 conditions (control, treated with DHA, DPA or BA) systematically presented in the same graph, and clearer titles for the parameter displayed on the Y axes. We hope that this figure is now easier to follow.

      Significance

      *The strength of the manuscript is the use and validation of incorporation of FFA's in the plasma membrane, which more closely mimics the physiological situation than brief application of FFAs as often done. Is addition, the blunted recruitment of beta-arrestin as assessed by the ppH protocol is quite intriguing mechanistically. The limitation are the relative narrow focus on the D2 receptor (and not multiple GPCRs) that does not really speak to as or assess the physiological, pathophysiological or therapeutic role of the observations (except from referring the relation between FFAs and disease). Also, despite the putative role of Beta-arrestin recruitment in the process, the actual causation in the process is not clear. This shortcoming is underscored by the putative effect on the constitutive internalization described above.

      My specific expertise for assessing the paper is within general trafficking processes (including the trafficking methodology applied), trafficking of GPCRs and function of the dopamine system including the role of D2 receptors.*

      • *

      Reviewer #2 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      • *

      The only conclusion that I was able to understand from the study was that enrichment of cell membranes with polyunsaturated fatty acids specifically inhibited agonist-induced internalization of D2 receptors. However, I think that the experiments used to conclude that PUFAs do not alter D2R clustering but reduce the recruitment of β-arrestin2 and D2R endocytosis need some clarification (i.e. data depicted in Fig. 2-5). This lack of clarity might be due to the fact I am not familiar enough with the employed technologies or to the unclear writing style of the paper. There was an overuse of acronyms, initialisms and abbreviations, which are difficult to understand for researchers outside of the specific lipid field. I think that the manuscript should be written in a way to be legible also for researchers not working in the immediate filed.

      The paper was not written in a manner that a general audience of cell biologists or those interested in GPCR biology could understand and judge. It is indeed interesting that polyunsaturated fatty acids specifically inhibit D2R internalization in HEK293 cells, and it could be significant. But, it is difficult to judge the significance of the observation without more in vivo data.

      I would suggest the following. Remove all acronyms and abbreviations. Significantly, expand the Materials and Methods section, either in the manuscript or in the Supplemental section. I suggest clearly explaining each construct used, and the function of each module in the construct, with diagrams. In addition, provide a comprehensive step by step description of each experimental protocol, providing the reader with the rationale for each step in the protocol with explanatory diagrams. The authors should also more clearly explain the rationale and logic that was utilized to make the conclusions that they did from the depicted observations. Only then can a broader audience determine if the authors' conclusions are justified.

      We thank the reviewer for his/her comments. Indeed, our main message was that two types of PUFAs (DHA and DPA) specifically alter D2R endocytosis by reducing the recruitment of β-arrestin2 without changing D2R clustering at the plasma membrane. We are sorry that our writing was not clear enough. We also found out that in the last steps of the submission to Review Commons, the first paragraph of the Discussion was inadvertently erased. This made our main conclusions, summarized in this first paragraph, less clear. We have now put back this important paragraph. Moreover, we have extensively rewritten the manuscript thriving to make it as clear as possible to a large audience. We have reduced the use of acronyms to keep only the most used ones [e.g. PUFA (used 99 times), DHA (37 times), GPCR (34 times), D2R (126 times), GRK (17 times)] and made them consistent throughout the manuscript. Following the reviewer's suggestion, we have also added a scheme of the steps following D2R activation by agonist leading to its internalization (Figure EV3).

      We understand that the reviewer implies by "in vivo data" results obtained in the brain of animals. As written in the Introduction and in the Discussion, the current work follows up on a recently published manuscripts by a subset of the authors, namely (i) Ducrocq et al. 2020 (doi 10.1016/j.cmet.2020.02.012) in which we show that deficits in motivation in animals deprived in ω3-PUFAs can be restored specifically by conditional expression of a fatty acid desaturase from c. elegans (FAT1) that allows restoring PUFA levels specifically in D2R-expressing striatal projection neurons (which mediate the so-called indirect pathway), and (ii) Jobin et al. 2023 (doi: 10.1038/s41380-022-01928-6) which combines in cellulo (HEK 293 cells) and in vivo data to show that PUFAs affects the ligand binding of the dopamine D2 receptor and its signaling in a lipid context that reflects patient lipid profiles regarding poly-unsaturation levels.

      Reviewer #2 (Significance (Required)):

      • *

      In summary, I will reiterate that the reported experiments need to be much better explained to make the study understandable to a broader audience and for that audience to determine whether the conclusions are justified.

      • *

      • *

      Reviewer #3 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      • *

      Summary:

      The authors investigate the role of lipid polyunsaturation in endocytic uptake of the dopamine D2 receptor (D2R). To modulate the degree of unsaturation in live cell plasma membranes, the authors incubate cell lines with pure fatty acid that is metabolized and incorporated into the cellular membranes. To quantify the internalization of D2R in these live cells, the authors utilized quantitative fluorescence assays such as DERET and endosome analysis to determine the degree and rate of D2R internalization in the presence of two model agonists - dopamine and quinpirole. The authors conclude that when the PUFA content of the plasma membrane is increased (i.e., via ω3 or ω6 fatty acids), both the quantity and rate of D2R internalization decrease substantially. The authors confirmed that these phenomena are specific to D2R as caveolar endocytosis and clathrin-mediated endocytosis were unaffected when these same experimental techniques were utilized for β2 adrenergic receptor and transferrin. Additionally, the authors conclude that the clustering ability of D2R is unaffected by lipid unsaturation but that the ability of D2R clusters to interact with β-arrestin2 is inhibited in the presence of excess PUFA. Based on these findings, the authors propose several hypothetical mechanisms for lipid-D2R interactions on the plasma membrane, which will likely be the scope of future work.

      Overall, this is a highly thorough and rigorous body of work that convincingly illustrates the connection between PUFA levels and D2R activity. However, I do not agree with the authors' conclusions pertaining to how their results should be interpreted in the context of fatty acid-related disorders. Additionally, this manuscript could benefit from some reorganization which would present the work more clearly. Please see the comments below.

      We thank the reviewer for the positive appreciation of our work, qualified as a "thorough and rigorous body of work that convincingly illustrates the connection between PUFA levels and D2R activity". We will address the specific points raised by the reviewer with our answers below.

      Comments:

        • A recurring motivation for this study that is brought up by the authors is that dietary deficiency of ω3 fatty acids is tied to D2R dysfunction. This would indicate that PUFA reduction in the plasma membrane results in D2R dysfunction. However, the experiments emphasized in this manuscript investigate the condition where PUFA content is INCREASED in the plasma membrane and D2R function is compromised. It seems inappropriate for the authors to cite dietary deficiency of ω3 as a motivation when they experimentally test a condition that is tied to ω3 surplus.* Regarding the general comment of the reviewer, we agree that direct conclusion cannot be drawn on the etiology of psychiatric disorders by looking at the effect of membrane fatty acid levels on D2R in HEK 293 cells. Nevertheless, we mention in the Introduction the intriguing occurrence of low PUFA levels in psychiatric disorders as starting point to look at D2R as an important target for psychoactive drugs prescribed for these disorders. In the Discussion, we propose that manipulating fatty acid levels might potentiate the efficacy of D2R ligands used as treatments. We felt raising these aspects was not putting too much emphasis on psychiatric disorders. However, in accordance with the reviewer's comment, we toned down these descriptions in the revised manuscript.

      The goal of increasing the levels of fatty acids at the membrane in HEK 293, the most widely used cellular system to study GPCR trafficking, was to try to emulate the levels of lipids in brain cells. Indeed, the levels of PUFAs in our culture conditions are much lower (~8 %, Figure 1B) than in brain extracts (~30 %). Therefore, the "control" condition in HEK 293 cells would correspond to PUFA deficiency while after our enrichment protocol these levels are closer to those found in brain cells. Our results could therefore be interpreted as endocytosis of D2R being augmented under membrane PUFA decrease. Importantly, increased receptor internalization often correlates with decreased signaling. Therefore, membrane PUFA enrichment in our conditions would rather potentiate D2R signaling.

      • Following up on the first comment, the authors' results seem to indicate that excess ω3's are detrimental to D2R function. This result would be at odds with the conventional view that ω3's are essential and that excessive ω3 may not be harmful. The authors should rationalize their findings in the context of what is known about excess dietary ω3.*

      The Reviewer is right that the conventional view is that excessive ω3 PUFA may not be harmful. However, this rather applies to dietary consumption, which might have limited effect to brain fatty acid contents since their accretion is highly regulated. Moreover, the majority of studies looking at ω3 supplementation have been performed in young adults and the effects on the developing brain - as it might be happening in pathological conditions in which D2R is involved - remain poorly understood. Furthermore, as mentioned above, blunted internalization of D2R under membrane PUFA enrichment is not an indication of "detrimental" to D2R function. Nor do we argue that membrane enrichment corresponds to excess PUFAs.

      • I would argue that the control experiments with saturated fatty acids (i.e., Behenic Acid in figure 1), represent a scenario mimicking ω3 deficiency as the enrichment of Behenic Acid causes an overall reduction in PUFAs (Figure EV1C - an increase in SFA must correspond to a decrease in PUFA). These Behenic acid results are the only experiments presented by the authors that mimic a scenario resembling ω3 deficiency and the results show that the D2R internalization is unaffected (Figure 1G-H). Therefore, I would further argue that if anything, the authors results suggest that ω3 deficiency is NOT correlated to D2R internalization. Again, the authors must rationalize these findings in the context of what is known about dietary intake of ω3's.*

      The Reviewer must refer to the fact that nutrients rich in SFAs are usually poor in PUFAs and vice-versa. Based on our lipidomic analysis, we now present in Figure 1B the effect of treatments (DHA, DPA, BA) on the levels of PUFAs (Figure 1B) and saturated fatty acids (Figure 1C). In cells treated with behenic acid (BA), PUFA levels are not significantly changed relative to control, untreated cells, while saturated fatty acid levels are increased. BA was used here to determine whether the effects observed with PUFAs was related to the enrichment in unsaturations or due to carbon chain length (C22). It is not the case because BA treatment, unlike DHA or DPA treatment, does not affect D2R endocytosis (Figure 2G,H).

      • It's not clear why the authors decided to include an ω6 fatty acid in this study. The authors built up a detailed rationale for investigating ω3's as they are dietarily essential and tied to disease when deficient. To my knowledge, ω6's are considered much less beneficial than ω3's in a dietary sense. The inclusion of an ω6 almost seems coerced as the ω6-related results don't provide any interesting additional insights. It would benefit the manuscript if the authors provided some additional discussion explaining why ω6's are being investigated in addition to ω3's. *

      We agree that we could have made the rationale clearer. The goal in comparing ω3-DHA and ω6-DPA was to assess whether the position of the first unsaturation (n-3 vs n-6), with the same carbon chain length (C22) might differentially impact D2R endocytosis.

      • In Figure EV1D, the AHA and DPA percentages each increase by ~6%. The corresponding Figure EV1B indicates that the overall PUFA% in the plasma membrane also increases by 6%. This makes sense as the total change in PUFA content is consistent with the amount of AHA or DPA being internalized to cells. However, this consistency was not observed with BA and SFAs. In Figure EV1E, the BA percentage increases only ~1% while the total SFA percentage in Figure EV1C increases by ~6%. How can something undergoing a 1% change (relative to total lipid content) result in a 6% overall change in SFA content?*

      The reviewer is correct: the level of SFAs is increased by 5.2% (34.5 % of total FAs in control cells to 39.7 % in BA treated cells), more than the increase in BA alone (1.18% from 0.35 % to 1.53 %). A close look at our lipidomics data showed that many of the 10 saturated fatty acids quantified are enhanced. In particular, the two most abundant ones, palmitic acid (16:0) and stearic acid (18:0) are increased, from 21.37 % to 22.28 % and 8.47 % to 11.17%, respectively. The reasons for these apparent discrepancies may involve lipid metabolic pathways which convert the rare and long BA into more common and shorter SFAs to preserve lipid contents and thus membrane properties.

      • In Figure 4, the discussion of kinetics does not make sense. How exactly are kinetics being monitored in this figure? (Recruitment kinetics are discussed in panels D and G)*

      We wanted to convey the impression that the time to reach the peak βarr2-mCherry recruitment was shorter in PUFA-treated cells than in control cells. However, after analyzing the kinetics in individual cells, we did not find a statistically significant difference in the time to maximum fluorescence. Therefore, we removed this reference to the kinetics of recruitment.

      We now write: " However, treatment with DHA or DPA significantly decreased peak βarr2-mCherry fluorescence (Figure 5F-G).."

      • In Figure 5, What is the purpose of panel D? Would it be more helpful to include additional, overlaid "cumulative N" plots for scenarios in which PUFAs were enriched? This would work well in conjunction with panel F.*

      The purpose of this panel is to show the kinetics of increase in the frequency of endocytic vesicle formation upon agonist addition, and the decrease in frequency when the agonist is removed. We have now added examples of cells treated with DHA and DPA of similar surface for direct comparison with control (EtOH) cells.

      • For the readers who are new to this area or unfamiliar with the assays used, Figure 1 is not intuitive and initially difficult to interpret. It would greatly benefit the flow of the manuscript if Figures EV1A-C and EV2A were included in the main text and "Normalized R" was clearly defined in the main text, prior to discussion of Figure 1.*

      We have now transferred Figure EV1 as Figure 1. We have adapted the scheme of the DERET assay and its legend (now in Figure EV1A) to make it clearer. We did not put in Figure 2 because this figure is already very big. We have changed "Normalized R" to "Ratio 620/520) (% max)" to be clearer and more consistent with the scheme.

      Reviewer #3 (Significance (Required)):

      • *

      General assessment: The work, for the most part, is rigorous and scientifically sound. The authors utilize impressive, quantitative assays to expand our understanding of protein-lipid interactions. However, the authors need to improve their discussion of the actual physiological conditions that correspond to their experimental results.

      • *

      Advance: This work may fill a gap in our understanding of disorders related to the dopamine D2 receptor. However, some of the results may be at odds with what is currently known/understood about dietary ω3 fatty acids.

      • *

      Audience: This work will be of broad interest to researchers in the biophysics field, with particular emphasis on researchers who study protein and membrane biophysics. This work will also be of interest to researchers who study membrane molecular biology.

      • *

      Reviewer Expertise: quantitative fluorescence spectroscopy and microscopy; membrane biophysics; protein-lipid interactions

      • *
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      Reply to the reviewers

      Compared to our initial submission to Review Commons, we have addressed all the reviewers' comments. We have extensively re-written the manuscript to make it clearer to a larger audience. In particular, we have transferred Figure EV1 to Figure 1 with more complete panels and included a scheme (Figure EV3) on the steps of D2R internalization which we measure with live cell imaging. We have added a new paragraph to the start of the Discussion to summarize our main conclusions and reordered the discussion on the possible mechanisms of membrane PUFA enrichment on D2R endocytosis. All the changes in the text are in red for easier comparison with the previous version.

      As suggested by reviewer 1, we have performed additional experiments to test the specificity of the effects of PUFA treatments on D2R endocytosis, reinforcing the results shown in Figure 4 using feeding assays. We show with live cell TIRF imaging and the ppH assay that TfR-SEP endocytosis is not affected (Figure EV5) and that SEP-β2AR endocytosis and βarr2-mCherry recruitment to the plasma membrane are not affected (Figure EV6).

      Reviewer #1

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      *The manuscript, using different live and fixed cell trafficking assays, demonstrates that incorporation of poly-unsaturated, but not saturated, free fatty acids in the membrane phospholipids reduce agonist induced internalization of the D2 dopamine receptor but not the adrenergic beta2 receptors or the transferrin receptor. Pulsed pH (ppH) live microscopy further demonstrated that the reduced internalization by incorporation of free fatty acid was accompanied by a blunted recruitment of Beta-arrestin for the D2R.

      I believe said claims put forward in the manuscript are overall well supported by the data and as such I do not believe that further experiments are necessarily needed to uphold these key claims. Also, the methodology is satisfactorily reported, and statistics are robust, although two-way Anova like used in Fig 1 seems appropriate for Fig 2 and 3*

      We thank the reviewer for his/her positive assessment of our work. We have checked the statistical tests used for all our measures. For Figure 2 and 3 (now 3 and 4) we test for only one factor (PUFA treatment or not) so we ran ordinary one-way ANOVA using Graphpad Prism.

      That said, I suggest that the fixed cell internalization experiments (Fig 2 and 3), which relate the effect on the D2R to B2AR and transferrin are revised. This is important since this is relevant to judge whether the effect is a general or a selective molecular mechanism since this is the one of the three assay which this comparison relies on. Alternatively, I suggest omitting this data and include the B2AR in the Live DERET assay and both B2AR and TfR in the ppH assay. Specifically, my concerns with the fixed cell internalization are: • The analysis is based on counting the number of endosomes, which is not necessarily equivalent to the number of receptors internalized

      The number of puncta, as well as their fluorescence, is reported by the analysis program (written in Matlab2021 and available upon request). We chose to show number of puncta because they reflect more directly the number of labelled endosomes (in Figures 3 and 4). As shown in the figure below, we found slight but significant differences between groups for FLAG-D2R (88.6 % and 87.6 % of average fluorescence in DHA and DPA treated cells compared to control cells), (panel A), and no differences for FLAG-β2AR (panel B). We find a significant decrease in puncta fluorescence for transferrin uptake in cells incubated with DHA (but not DPA) relative to control cells (panel C). However, because we did not detect differences in the number of puncta or in the frequency and amplitude of endocytic vesicle creation events (see below), we still conclude that enrichment with exogenous PUFAs does not affect clathrin mediated endocytosis.

      In conclusion, the most robust measure of endocytosis for this assay is the number of detected puncta per cell rather than their fluorescence.

      • The analysis relies on fully effective stripping of the surface pool of receptors - i.e clustered surface receptors not stripped by the protocol will be assessed as internalized. It is often very difficult to obtain full efficiency of the Flag-tag stripping and this is somewhat expression dependent. • The protocol for the constitutive and agonist induced internalization is different and yet shown on the same absolute graph. Although I take it the microscope gain setting are unaltered between the constitutive and agonist induced internalization I don't believe the quantification can be directly related. This is confusing at the very least. More critically however, the membrane signal from the non-stripped condition of constitutive internalization will likely fully shield internalized receptors in the Rab4 membrane proximal recycling pathway leading to under-estimation of the in the constitutive endocytosis. I believe this methodological limitation underlies the massive relative difference in the constitutive endocytosis between panel 2A,B and 2C,D. For comparison, by a quantitative dual color FACS endocytosis assay, we have previously demonstrated the ligand endocytosis a ~4 fold increased over constitutive (in concert with Fig 2A,B here) (Schmidt et al 20XX). Importantly, high relative variability by this methodology could well shield an actual effect of incorporation of FFAs on the constitutive endocytosis. We thank the reviewer for pointing this difference in the protocol. As a matter of fact, we have not used acid stripping in all the conditions used for the uptake assays (Figures 3 and 4). We apologize for the confusion and we have clarified this point in the Methods section. In early experiments we compared conditions with or without stripping but we concluded from these experiments that indeed, the stripping was not complete. Moreover, we noticed early on that many cells treated with DHA or DPA did not have any detectable cluster (13 cells out of 58 quantified cells treated with DHA after addition of QPL, 12/56 cells treated with DPA, 0/68 for cells treated with vehicle). Stripping the antibody would have made these cells undetectable, biasing the analysis. Therefore, to make our results more consistent we decided to use non-stripping conditions. To detect endosomes specifically, we used a segmentation tool developed earlier (see Rosendale et al.* 2019). This tool is based on wavelet transforms which recognizes dot-like structures. In addition, we excluded from the cell mask the labelled plasma membrane by a mask erosion.

      We agree the design of experiments was not aimed at comparing the effect of PUFA treatment on low levels of constitutive D2R endocytosis. This would require more sensitive assays and be addressed in subsequent studies.

      'Optional' Also, it would be informative to see the ppH Beta-arrestin experiments with the B2AR to assess, whether the putative discrepancy between D2R and B2AR is upstream or downstream of the blunted Beta-arrestin recruitment. To the same point, it would be very informative to assess how the incorporation of the free fatty acids affect receptor signalling, which would also help relate the effect of incorporation of the FFA's in the phospholipids to previous experiment using short term incubation with FFA's

      We have now performed live imaging experiments in HEK293 cells expressing SEP-β2AR, GRK2 and βarr2-mCherry and stimulated with isoproterenol (Figure EV6). We show that the clustering of SEP-β2AR, of βarr2-mCherry, as well as endocytosis, are not affected by treatments with DHA or DPA. In this study, we focused on the early trafficking steps of D2R internalization. It will be interesting in a future study to address its consequences on G protein dependent and independent signaling. Moreover, and for good measure, we performed experiments to assess TfR-SEP endocytosis with the ppH assay. Again, we found no difference between cells treated or not with PUFAs (Figure EV5)

      *References overall seem appropriate although Schmidt et al would be relevant for reference of the constitutive vs agonist induced endocytosis of D2R and B2AR. *

      We have now cited Schmidt et al. 2020 doi 10.1111/bcpt.13274 in the discussion with the following sentences: "D2R also shows constitutive endocytosis (Schmidt et al, 2020) which may be modulated by PUFAs although we did not detect any significant difference in our measures (see Figure 3) which were aimed at detecting high levels of internalization induced by agonists. Further work will be required to specifically examine the effect of PUFAs on constitutive GPCR internalization."

      Overall, the figures are well composed and convey the messages fairly well. Specific point that would strengthen the rigor include: • Chosing actual representative pictures of the quantitative data in Fig 2 and 3 (e.g. hard to see 25 endocytic events in Fig 2A constitutive endo, EtOH)

      We apologize for the confusion. We employ a normalization procedure to account for cell size. In addition, all numbers have been normalized to the condition stimulated with agonist with no PUFA treatment). In fact, we detect in unstimulated cells very few puncta (on average 0.6, range 0-5) compared to 27.3 clusters (range 2-87) in cells stimulated with QPL.

      • Showing actual p values for the statistical comparisons* For easier reading, we have kept the stars convention for the figures but added two tables with all statistical tests and the p values for both main figures and EV figures.

      Moreover, for ease of reading the figures (without consulting the legend repeatedly) it would be very helpful to headline individual panel with what the experiments assesses. Figure 1a and 1b for example can't be distinguished at all before reading the figure legend. Also, y-axis could be more informative on what I measured rather than just giving the unit.

      We have added titles to panels (in particular for Figure 2A,B which correspond to former Figure 1A,B) and we have given new titles to Y axes to make them clearer. We hope that the reading of our figures will now be easier.

      Finally, the figure presentation and description of S1 is very hard to follow. I cannot really make out what is assessed in the different panels.

      We have changed substantially Figure EV1 (now Figure 1) with new presentation of data: all 4 conditions (control, treated with DHA, DPA or BA) systematically presented in the same graph, and clearer titles for the parameter displayed on the Y axes. We hope that this figure is now easier to follow.

      Significance

      *The strength of the manuscript is the use and validation of incorporation of FFA's in the plasma membrane, which more closely mimics the physiological situation than brief application of FFAs as often done. Is addition, the blunted recruitment of beta-arrestin as assessed by the ppH protocol is quite intriguing mechanistically. The limitation are the relative narrow focus on the D2 receptor (and not multiple GPCRs) that does not really speak to as or assess the physiological, pathophysiological or therapeutic role of the observations (except from referring the relation between FFAs and disease). Also, despite the putative role of Beta-arrestin recruitment in the process, the actual causation in the process is not clear. This shortcoming is underscored by the putative effect on the constitutive internalization described above.

      My specific expertise for assessing the paper is within general trafficking processes (including the trafficking methodology applied), trafficking of GPCRs and function of the dopamine system including the role of D2 receptors.*

      • *

      Reviewer #2 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      • *

      The only conclusion that I was able to understand from the study was that enrichment of cell membranes with polyunsaturated fatty acids specifically inhibited agonist-induced internalization of D2 receptors. However, I think that the experiments used to conclude that PUFAs do not alter D2R clustering but reduce the recruitment of β-arrestin2 and D2R endocytosis need some clarification (i.e. data depicted in Fig. 2-5). This lack of clarity might be due to the fact I am not familiar enough with the employed technologies or to the unclear writing style of the paper. There was an overuse of acronyms, initialisms and abbreviations, which are difficult to understand for researchers outside of the specific lipid field. I think that the manuscript should be written in a way to be legible also for researchers not working in the immediate filed.

      The paper was not written in a manner that a general audience of cell biologists or those interested in GPCR biology could understand and judge. It is indeed interesting that polyunsaturated fatty acids specifically inhibit D2R internalization in HEK293 cells, and it could be significant. But, it is difficult to judge the significance of the observation without more in vivo data.

      I would suggest the following. Remove all acronyms and abbreviations. Significantly, expand the Materials and Methods section, either in the manuscript or in the Supplemental section. I suggest clearly explaining each construct used, and the function of each module in the construct, with diagrams. In addition, provide a comprehensive step by step description of each experimental protocol, providing the reader with the rationale for each step in the protocol with explanatory diagrams. The authors should also more clearly explain the rationale and logic that was utilized to make the conclusions that they did from the depicted observations. Only then can a broader audience determine if the authors' conclusions are justified.

      We thank the reviewer for his/her comments. Indeed, our main message was that two types of PUFAs (DHA and DPA) specifically alter D2R endocytosis by reducing the recruitment of β-arrestin2 without changing D2R clustering at the plasma membrane. We are sorry that our writing was not clear enough. We also found out that in the last steps of the submission to Review Commons, the first paragraph of the Discussion was inadvertently erased. This made our main conclusions, summarized in this first paragraph, less clear. We have now put back this important paragraph. Moreover, we have extensively rewritten the manuscript thriving to make it as clear as possible to a large audience. We have reduced the use of acronyms to keep only the most used ones [e.g. PUFA (used 99 times), DHA (37 times), GPCR (34 times), D2R (126 times), GRK (17 times)] and made them consistent throughout the manuscript. Following the reviewer's suggestion, we have also added a scheme of the steps following D2R activation by agonist leading to its internalization (Figure EV3).

      We understand that the reviewer implies by "in vivo data" results obtained in the brain of animals. As written in the Introduction and in the Discussion, the current work follows up on a recently published manuscripts by a subset of the authors, namely (i) Ducrocq et al. 2020 (doi 10.1016/j.cmet.2020.02.012) in which we show that deficits in motivation in animals deprived in ω3-PUFAs can be restored specifically by conditional expression of a fatty acid desaturase from c. elegans (FAT1) that allows restoring PUFA levels specifically in D2R-expressing striatal projection neurons (which mediate the so-called indirect pathway), and (ii) Jobin et al. 2023 (doi: 10.1038/s41380-022-01928-6) which combines in cellulo (HEK 293 cells) and in vivo data to show that PUFAs affects the ligand binding of the dopamine D2 receptor and its signaling in a lipid context that reflects patient lipid profiles regarding poly-unsaturation levels.

      Reviewer #2 (Significance (Required)):

      • *

      In summary, I will reiterate that the reported experiments need to be much better explained to make the study understandable to a broader audience and for that audience to determine whether the conclusions are justified.

      • *

      • *

      Reviewer #3 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      • *

      Summary:

      The authors investigate the role of lipid polyunsaturation in endocytic uptake of the dopamine D2 receptor (D2R). To modulate the degree of unsaturation in live cell plasma membranes, the authors incubate cell lines with pure fatty acid that is metabolized and incorporated into the cellular membranes. To quantify the internalization of D2R in these live cells, the authors utilized quantitative fluorescence assays such as DERET and endosome analysis to determine the degree and rate of D2R internalization in the presence of two model agonists - dopamine and quinpirole. The authors conclude that when the PUFA content of the plasma membrane is increased (i.e., via ω3 or ω6 fatty acids), both the quantity and rate of D2R internalization decrease substantially. The authors confirmed that these phenomena are specific to D2R as caveolar endocytosis and clathrin-mediated endocytosis were unaffected when these same experimental techniques were utilized for β2 adrenergic receptor and transferrin. Additionally, the authors conclude that the clustering ability of D2R is unaffected by lipid unsaturation but that the ability of D2R clusters to interact with β-arrestin2 is inhibited in the presence of excess PUFA. Based on these findings, the authors propose several hypothetical mechanisms for lipid-D2R interactions on the plasma membrane, which will likely be the scope of future work.

      Overall, this is a highly thorough and rigorous body of work that convincingly illustrates the connection between PUFA levels and D2R activity. However, I do not agree with the authors' conclusions pertaining to how their results should be interpreted in the context of fatty acid-related disorders. Additionally, this manuscript could benefit from some reorganization which would present the work more clearly. Please see the comments below.

      We thank the reviewer for the positive appreciation of our work, qualified as a "thorough and rigorous body of work that convincingly illustrates the connection between PUFA levels and D2R activity". We will address the specific points raised by the reviewer with our answers below.

      Comments:

        • A recurring motivation for this study that is brought up by the authors is that dietary deficiency of ω3 fatty acids is tied to D2R dysfunction. This would indicate that PUFA reduction in the plasma membrane results in D2R dysfunction. However, the experiments emphasized in this manuscript investigate the condition where PUFA content is INCREASED in the plasma membrane and D2R function is compromised. It seems inappropriate for the authors to cite dietary deficiency of ω3 as a motivation when they experimentally test a condition that is tied to ω3 surplus.* Regarding the general comment of the reviewer, we agree that direct conclusion cannot be drawn on the etiology of psychiatric disorders by looking at the effect of membrane fatty acid levels on D2R in HEK 293 cells. Nevertheless, we mention in the Introduction the intriguing occurrence of low PUFA levels in psychiatric disorders as starting point to look at D2R as an important target for psychoactive drugs prescribed for these disorders. In the Discussion, we propose that manipulating fatty acid levels might potentiate the efficacy of D2R ligands used as treatments. We felt raising these aspects was not putting too much emphasis on psychiatric disorders. However, in accordance with the reviewer's comment, we toned down these descriptions in the revised manuscript.

      The goal of increasing the levels of fatty acids at the membrane in HEK 293, the most widely used cellular system to study GPCR trafficking, was to try to emulate the levels of lipids in brain cells. Indeed, the levels of PUFAs in our culture conditions are much lower (~8 %, Figure 1B) than in brain extracts (~30 %). Therefore, the "control" condition in HEK 293 cells would correspond to PUFA deficiency while after our enrichment protocol these levels are closer to those found in brain cells. Our results could therefore be interpreted as endocytosis of D2R being augmented under membrane PUFA decrease. Importantly, increased receptor internalization often correlates with decreased signaling. Therefore, membrane PUFA enrichment in our conditions would rather potentiate D2R signaling.

      • Following up on the first comment, the authors' results seem to indicate that excess ω3's are detrimental to D2R function. This result would be at odds with the conventional view that ω3's are essential and that excessive ω3 may not be harmful. The authors should rationalize their findings in the context of what is known about excess dietary ω3.*

      The Reviewer is right that the conventional view is that excessive ω3 PUFA may not be harmful. However, this rather applies to dietary consumption, which might have limited effect to brain fatty acid contents since their accretion is highly regulated. Moreover, the majority of studies looking at ω3 supplementation have been performed in young adults and the effects on the developing brain - as it might be happening in pathological conditions in which D2R is involved - remain poorly understood. Furthermore, as mentioned above, blunted internalization of D2R under membrane PUFA enrichment is not an indication of "detrimental" to D2R function. Nor do we argue that membrane enrichment corresponds to excess PUFAs.

      • I would argue that the control experiments with saturated fatty acids (i.e., Behenic Acid in figure 1), represent a scenario mimicking ω3 deficiency as the enrichment of Behenic Acid causes an overall reduction in PUFAs (Figure EV1C - an increase in SFA must correspond to a decrease in PUFA). These Behenic acid results are the only experiments presented by the authors that mimic a scenario resembling ω3 deficiency and the results show that the D2R internalization is unaffected (Figure 1G-H). Therefore, I would further argue that if anything, the authors results suggest that ω3 deficiency is NOT correlated to D2R internalization. Again, the authors must rationalize these findings in the context of what is known about dietary intake of ω3's.*

      The Reviewer must refer to the fact that nutrients rich in SFAs are usually poor in PUFAs and vice-versa. Based on our lipidomic analysis, we now present in Figure 1B the effect of treatments (DHA, DPA, BA) on the levels of PUFAs (Figure 1B) and saturated fatty acids (Figure 1C). In cells treated with behenic acid (BA), PUFA levels are not significantly changed relative to control, untreated cells, while saturated fatty acid levels are increased. BA was used here to determine whether the effects observed with PUFAs was related to the enrichment in unsaturations or due to carbon chain length (C22). It is not the case because BA treatment, unlike DHA or DPA treatment, does not affect D2R endocytosis (Figure 2G,H).

      • It's not clear why the authors decided to include an ω6 fatty acid in this study. The authors built up a detailed rationale for investigating ω3's as they are dietarily essential and tied to disease when deficient. To my knowledge, ω6's are considered much less beneficial than ω3's in a dietary sense. The inclusion of an ω6 almost seems coerced as the ω6-related results don't provide any interesting additional insights. It would benefit the manuscript if the authors provided some additional discussion explaining why ω6's are being investigated in addition to ω3's. *

      We agree that we could have made the rationale clearer. The goal in comparing ω3-DHA and ω6-DPA was to assess whether the position of the first unsaturation (n-3 vs n-6), with the same carbon chain length (C22) might differentially impact D2R endocytosis.

      • In Figure EV1D, the AHA and DPA percentages each increase by ~6%. The corresponding Figure EV1B indicates that the overall PUFA% in the plasma membrane also increases by 6%. This makes sense as the total change in PUFA content is consistent with the amount of AHA or DPA being internalized to cells. However, this consistency was not observed with BA and SFAs. In Figure EV1E, the BA percentage increases only ~1% while the total SFA percentage in Figure EV1C increases by ~6%. How can something undergoing a 1% change (relative to total lipid content) result in a 6% overall change in SFA content?*

      The reviewer is correct: the level of SFAs is increased by 5.2% (34.5 % of total FAs in control cells to 39.7 % in BA treated cells), more than the increase in BA alone (1.18% from 0.35 % to 1.53 %). A close look at our lipidomics data showed that many of the 10 saturated fatty acids quantified are enhanced. In particular, the two most abundant ones, palmitic acid (16:0) and stearic acid (18:0) are increased, from 21.37 % to 22.28 % and 8.47 % to 11.17%, respectively. The reasons for these apparent discrepancies may involve lipid metabolic pathways which convert the rare and long BA into more common and shorter SFAs to preserve lipid contents and thus membrane properties.

      • In Figure 4, the discussion of kinetics does not make sense. How exactly are kinetics being monitored in this figure? (Recruitment kinetics are discussed in panels D and G)*

      We wanted to convey the impression that the time to reach the peak βarr2-mCherry recruitment was shorter in PUFA-treated cells than in control cells. However, after analyzing the kinetics in individual cells, we did not find a statistically significant difference in the time to maximum fluorescence. Therefore, we removed this reference to the kinetics of recruitment.

      We now write: " However, treatment with DHA or DPA significantly decreased peak βarr2-mCherry fluorescence (Figure 5F-G).."

      • In Figure 5, What is the purpose of panel D? Would it be more helpful to include additional, overlaid "cumulative N" plots for scenarios in which PUFAs were enriched? This would work well in conjunction with panel F.*

      The purpose of this panel is to show the kinetics of increase in the frequency of endocytic vesicle formation upon agonist addition, and the decrease in frequency when the agonist is removed. We have now added examples of cells treated with DHA and DPA of similar surface for direct comparison with control (EtOH) cells.

      • For the readers who are new to this area or unfamiliar with the assays used, Figure 1 is not intuitive and initially difficult to interpret. It would greatly benefit the flow of the manuscript if Figures EV1A-C and EV2A were included in the main text and "Normalized R" was clearly defined in the main text, prior to discussion of Figure 1.*

      We have now transferred Figure EV1 as Figure 1. We have adapted the scheme of the DERET assay and its legend (now in Figure EV1A) to make it clearer. We did not put in Figure 2 because this figure is already very big. We have changed "Normalized R" to "Ratio 620/520) (% max)" to be clearer and more consistent with the scheme.

      Reviewer #3 (Significance (Required)):

      • *

      General assessment: The work, for the most part, is rigorous and scientifically sound. The authors utilize impressive, quantitative assays to expand our understanding of protein-lipid interactions. However, the authors need to improve their discussion of the actual physiological conditions that correspond to their experimental results.

      • *

      Advance: This work may fill a gap in our understanding of disorders related to the dopamine D2 receptor. However, some of the results may be at odds with what is currently known/understood about dietary ω3 fatty acids.

      • *

      Audience: This work will be of broad interest to researchers in the biophysics field, with particular emphasis on researchers who study protein and membrane biophysics. This work will also be of interest to researchers who study membrane molecular biology.

      • *

      Reviewer Expertise: quantitative fluorescence spectroscopy and microscopy; membrane biophysics; protein-lipid interactions

      • *
    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, the authors set out to develop genetic tools that can specifically and comprehensively label Axo-Axonic Cells (AACs), also known as Chandelier cells. These AACs possess unique morphological and connectivity features, making them an ideal subject for studying various aspects of cell types across different experimental methods. To achieve both specificity and comprehensiveness in AAC labeling, the authors employ an intersectional strategy that combines lineage origin and molecular markers. This approach successfully targets AACs across the mouse brain and reveals their widespread distribution in various brain structures beyond the previously known regions. Additionally, the authors utilize rabies transneuronal labeling to provide a comprehensive overview of AACs, their variations, and input sources throughout the brain. This experimental approach offers a powerful model system for investigating the role of AACs in circuit development and function across diverse brain regions.

      Strengths:

      Genetic Tools and Specificity: The authors' genetic tools show qualitative evidence of specificity for AACs, opening new avenues for targeted research on these cells. The use of intersectional strategies enhances the precision of AAC labeling.

      Widespread Distribution: The study significantly broadens our understanding of AAC distribution, revealing their presence in brain regions beyond what was previously documented. This expanded knowledge is a valuable contribution to the field.

      Transneuronal Labeling: The inclusion of rabies transneuronal labeling provides a comprehensive view of AACs, their variations, and input sources, allowing for a more holistic understanding of their role in neural circuits.

      Weaknesses:

      Quantitative Analysis: While the claim of specificity appears qualitatively convincing, the manuscript could be improved with more quantitative analysis.

      We are glad that the reviewers appreciated our multimodal and brain-wide characterizations of the AAC population. We include many qualitative AAC examples and would like to highlight the quantitative nature of our whole brain cell body and cartridge analyses, made possible by transgenic targeting and our serial two-photon tomography imaging platform (STP). In addition to providing this brain wide AAC atlas, we also propose AACs as perhaps one of the best case examples for a bona fide cell type, which may inspire further in-depth anatomical and functional studies of AACs, and efforts to capture other ground truth cell types.

      Comprehensiveness Claim: The assertion of comprehensiveness, implying labeling "almost all" AACs in all brain regions, is challenging to substantiate conclusively. Acknowledging the limitations of proving complete comprehensiveness and discussing them in the discussion section would be more appropriate than asserting it in the results section.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion and have revised the results and discussion sections accordingly. The issue of how to access comprehensiveness in AAC labeling is a fair and important point, as dense brain-wide AAC labeling has not been achieved and assessed before. Previous studies had used less efficient and specific methods for capturing AACs, primarily in select areas of cortex, hippocampus, and amygdala. These AAC populations are recapitulated by our genetic strategies with higher density and specificity. It does not seem that we have missed any previously-reported AAC populations; in fact, we discovered multiple previously unreported populations. Another evidence supporting our “comprehensive” labeling of AACs is that two independent Unc5b and Pthlh transgenic strategies showed very similar AAC distribution patterns (Fig. 1 Suppl. 3). However, we recognize that probably the only way to fully assess “completeness” of labeling may be to compare with anatomical ground truth, such as by dense EM reconstruction of all AACs across the brain volume. This is currently not technically possible but may become feasible in the future. 

      Local Inputs: While the manuscript focuses on inter-areal inputs to AACs, it would benefit from exploring local inputs as well. Identifying the local neurons that target AACs and analyzing their patterns could provide valuable insights into AAC function within specific brain regions.

      This is a good suggestion. However, our serial two-photon tomography imaging platform does not have the capability for reliably preserving tissue sections for immunohistochemical processing afterward. Additionally, though our starter AAV injections were limited to 100-150nL, there were far too many input cells labelled at the injection side to resolve individual input cells and correlate with their synaptic partners (e.g. a rabies-labelled pyramidal cell within the injection site may still project to starter cell few hundred microns away). Thus, our rabies input mapping was best suited for characterizing long-range inputs and was the focus here. For studying local inputs to AACs, future studies could combine very dilute starter AAV injections with multi-marker characterization of cell types by immunohistochemistry or FISH.  

      Discussion Focus: The discussion section should delve deeper into the biological implications of the findings, moving beyond technical significance. Exploring similarities and differences in input patterns between AACs and other cell types, and linking them to the locations of starter cells or specific connectivity patterns in the brain, would enrich the discussion. For instance, investigating whether input patterns can be predicted based on the locations of starter cells or connectivity specificity could provide valuable insights.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We have expanded the discussion to include more on the relevance and implications of our input mapping results to different starter populations of AACs.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The goals of this study were to develop a genetic approach that would specifically and comprehensively target axo-axonic cells (AACs) throughout the brain and then to describe the patterns and characteristics of the targeted AACs in multiple, selected brain regions. The investigators have been successful in providing the most complete description of the regional distribution of putative (pAACs) throughout the brain to date. The supporting evidence is convincing, even though incomplete in some brain regions. The findings should serve as a guide for more detailed studies of AACs within each brain region and lead to new insights into the connectivity and functional organization of this important group of GABAergic interneurons.

      Strengths:

      The study has numerous strengths. A major strength is the development of a unique intersectional genetic strategy that uses cell lineage (Nkx2.1) and molecular (Unc5b or Pthlh) markers to identify axo-axonic AACs specifically and, apparently, nearly completely throughout the mouse brain. While AACs have been described previously in the cerebral cortex, hippocampus, and amygdala, there has been no specific genetic marker that selectively identifies all AACs in these regions.

      The current genetic strategy has labeled pAACs in a large number of additional brain regions, including the claustrum-insular complex, extended amygdala, and several olfactory centers. In general, the findings provide support for the specificity of the methods for targeting AACs, and include some examples of labeling near markers of axon initial segments. However, the Investigators are careful to refer to labeled neurons as "putative AACs" as they have not been fully characterized and their identity verified.

      The descriptions and numerous low-magnification images of the brain provide a roadmap for subsequent, detailed studies of AACs in numerous brain regions. The overview and summaries of the findings in the Abstract, Introduction, and Discussion are particularly clear and helpful in placing the extensive regional descriptions of AACs in context.

      Weaknesses:

      One weakness of the study is the lack of an illustration of the high-resolution cell labeling that can be achieved with the methods, including labeling of numerous rows of axon terminals in contact with axon initial segments. The initial images of the brain-wide distribution of putative AACs are necessarily presented at low magnification. Although the authors indicate that the cells have "highly characteristic AAC labeling patterns throughout the neocortex, hippocampus and BLA", these morphological details cannot be visualized by the reader at the current magnification, even when the images are enlarged on the computer screen. Some of the details become evident in later Figures, but an initial illustration of single cell labeling with confocal microscopy, or tracing of their characteristic axonal arbors, would support the specificity of the labeling in the low magnification images.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. We have now added high-resolution images showing the colocalization of AAC axon boutons (cartridges) along AnkG positive postsynaptic axon initial segments in Fig. 2 Suppl. 1, Figure 1 panels a, d, e, and Fig. 4 panels b, c. These images unequivocally demonstrate AAC identity and specificity.

      Table 1 indicates that the AAC identity of the cells has been validated in many brain regions but not in all. The methods used for validation have not been described and should be included for completeness. The authors are careful to acknowledge that labeled cells in some regions have not been validated and refer to such cells as pAACs.

      Validation was defined by colocalization of RFP-labelled AAC cartridges and AnkryinG or Phospho-IκBα-labelled axon initial segments, imaged by confocal microscopy. We provide high-magnification examples throughout figures 2-6 and supplements. We have also tried to clarify this better in the methods section entitled “Immunohistochemistry.” Putative AAC (pAACs) refers to populations in which relatively few single cell examples of AACs exhibiting co-localized cartridges were found, largely due to the sparsity of the low tamoxifen dosage used (see response above).

      The intersectional genetic methods included the use of the lineage marker Nkx2.1 with either Unc5b or Pthlh as the molecular marker. As described, the mice with intersectional targeting of Nkx2.1 and Unc5b appear to show the most specific brain-wide labeling for AACs, and the majority of the descriptions are from these mice. The targeting with Nkx2.1 and Pthlh is less convincing. The title for Figure 1 Supplemental Figure 3 suggests a similar AAC distribution in the Pthlh;Nkx2.1 mouse compared to the Unc5b;Nkx2.1 mouse. However, the descriptions of the individual panels suggest a number of inconsistencies and non-AAC labeling. The heavy labeling in the caudate and cells in layer 4 is particularly problematic. Based on the data presented, it appears that heavy labeling achieved in these mice could not be relied on for specific labeling of all AACs, although specific labeling could be achieved under some conditions, such as following tamoxifen administration at select ages.

      The reviewer is correct about Pthlh being less specific for AACs than Unc5b when crossed to a constitutive Nkx2.1 recombinase driver line. Pthlh/Nkx2.1 intersection labeled a set of layer 4 cells in somatosensory cortex and dense cells in striatum, which are clearly not AACs. But these are the only main difference compared to Unc5b/Nkx2.1 intersection. As the reviewer points out, it is only when Pthlh is crossed to an inducible Nkx2.1-CreER line and induced embryonically with tamoxifen that there is more specific AAC labeling (at least in cortex). We included this data as well as the intersection with VIP-Cre in case either of these are useful to researchers studying fate-mapping of AACs or bipolar cell interneurons. We have also revised the title of Fig. 1 Suppl. 3 to better convey this.

      The methods described for dense labeling and single-cell labeling are described briefly in the methods. Some discussion of the development of the methods would be useful, including how it was determined that methods for heavy labeling identified AACs specifically and completely.

      We have added a description on the development of these to the methods section entitled “Animals.”

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Raudales et al. aimed at providing an insight into the brain-wide distribution and synaptic connectivity of bona fide GABAergic inhibitory interneuron subtypes focusing on the axo-axonic cell (AAC), one of the most distinctive interneuron subtypes, which innervates the axon initial segments of glutamatergic projection neurons. They establish intersectional genetic strategies that enable them to specifically and comprehensively capture AACs based on their lineage (Nkx2.1) and marker expression (Unc5b, Pthlh). They find that AACs are deployed across essentially all the pallium-derived brain structures as well as the anterior olfactory nucleus, taenia tecta, and lateral septum. They show that AACs in distinct areas and layers of the neocortex as well as different subregions of the hippocampal formation display unique soma and synaptic density and morphological variations. Rabies virus-based retrograde monosynaptic input tracing reveals that AACs in the neocortex, the hippocampus, and the basolateral amygdala receive synaptic inputs from common as well as specific brain regions and supports the utility of this novel genetic approach. This study elucidates brain-wide neuroanatomical features and morphological variations of AACs with solid techniques and analysis. Their novel AAC-targeting strategies will facilitate the study of their development and function in different brain regions. The conclusions in this paper are well supported by the data. However, there are a few comments to strengthen this study.

      (1) The definition of putative AAC (pAAC) is unclear and Table 1 may not be accurate. Although the authors find synaptic cartridges of RFP-labeled cells in the claustro-insular complex and the dorsal endopiriform nuclei, they still consider these cells as pAACs (not validated). The authors claim that without examining the presence of synaptic cartridges, RFP-labeled cells in the hypothalamus and the bed nuclei of the stria terminalis (BNST) are pAACs while those in the L4 of the somatosensory cortex in Pthlh;Nkx2.1;Ai65 mice are non-AACs. In Table 1, the BNST is supposed to contain AACs (validated), but in the text, the authors claim that RFP-labeled cells in the BNST are pAACs. Could the authors clarify how AACs, pAACs, and non-AACs are defined?

      We thank the reviewer for their interest and comments on our work. Please see our response to reviewer 2 for clarification on putative pAACs. Additionally, we have clarified in the methods under “Immunohistochemistry” how we defined AACs, pAAC, and non-AACs. For BNST we did not positively identify more than a few exhibiting overlap with AnkryinG/IκBα, so we currently leave them as pAACs—Table 1 has been corrected to reflect this.

      (2) The intersectional strategies presented in this study could also specifically capture developing AACs. If so, how early are AACs labeled in the brain? It would also be nice if the authors could add a simple schematic like Fig. 1a showing the time course of Pthlh expression.

      We thank the reviewer for suggesting the application of our method in studying AAC development. As the onset of Unc5b is in early postnatal time, tamoxifen induction of Unc5b-CreER in early postnatal days can enable studies of AAC neurite and synapse development, maturation, and plasticity. Similarly, Pthlh expression in the brain is relatively low/absent at P4 and present at P14 and later timepoints. Pthlh-Flp;Nkx2.1-Cre intersection can be used to study postnatal AAC development and plasticity.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      While the claim of specificity appears qualitatively convincing, additional quantitative analysis would make the authors' claim much stronger. For example in Figure 4 (f-h), where the authors show an overlap of AAC axons with AnkG labeling, there also appears to be a region of AAC axon lacking adjacent AnkG labeling. The author could quantify the fraction of cartridges that overlap with AnkG labeling in different brain regions, potentially stringing their claim that pAACs are AACs as well as providing important documentation of the diversity or homogeneity of compartment targeting across the brain.

      As mentioned previously, we only performed AnkG co-labeling analysis on low-dose tamoxifen/sparsely labelled samples in which we could readily differentiate individual cells. This was performed on samples with the Ai65 cytoplasmic reporter—for validation purposes we could positively identify co-labelled cartridges, but it would be more difficult to accurately identify any cartridges not co-labeled (since the entire axon was labelled with RFP). For precisely identifying and mapping AAC cartridge locations we found the intersectional synaptophysin-EGFP reporter (Fig. 2k-n) to be a more precise method for specifically labeling the “cartridge” segment of AAC axons. However, we did not try AnkG staining on samples from this reporter line, as they were set aside for STP imaging.

      Regarding the claim of comprehensiveness, labeling "almost all" AACs in all brain regions is a high standard and challenging to demonstrate conclusively. The study already significantly expands our understanding of AAC distribution, and the authors might consider discussing the limitations of proving complete comprehensiveness in the discussion rather than claiming it in the results section.

      We again thank the reviewer for this critique. As mentioned above, we have revised the results and discussion sections to better convey this point across.

      Furthermore, the manuscript connectivity section primarily focuses on inter-areal inputs to AACs, but it could benefit from exploring local inputs as well. By identifying the local neurons that target AACs, the authors could ask if there is any general property or rule of the local projections to AACs across the brain, or at least within the cortex. Moreover, a clear indication of the injection site would be helpful, particularly in Figure 7, where there seems to be some discrepancy between the histograms and fluorescent images regarding local projections. The histograms of Figure 7, seem to indicate that the local projection to AACs is a small fraction of all the presynaptic neurons, however, the fluorescent image for the SSp seems to suggest otherwise with many fluorescent cells in the injected area.

      We thank the reviewer for these comments. Regarding the local inputs in the rabies tracing datasets, it is a limitation (as mentioned above) of our STP platform’s inability to preserve tissue for immunohistochemistry labeling as well as our relatively dense starter cell labeling. Instead, our focus here was on long-range inputs (i.e. outside the ipsilateral ARA area of injection), which was simply not known for these AAC populations. We have revised the Figure 7 legend and added a description in the methods section to more clearly indicate that we only included long-range input projections in the Figure 7 histograms.

      In the discussion, the authors should delve more into the biological implications of their findings rather than solely emphasizing the technical significance. They could explore the similarities and differences in input patterns between AACs and other cell types, potentially linking them to the locations of their starter cells or specific connectivity patterns in the brain. For example, the authors could check if the input patterns could be predicted from the projections to the layers where their starter cells are located (either from an Atlas like the Allen Connectivity Atlas, or from retrograde rabies injections in the same locations). Can the differences between the input patterns to PVC and AAC be predicted for their location versus some specificity of connections?

      Thank you for the extensive comment. We address this point above, and have revised our discussion accordingly.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The Figure legends vary in completeness and quality.

      (1) The legend for Figure 1 is very informative, and section e-g serves as a useful guide, as the legend includes the names of the brain regions related to the abbreviations and also indicates the specific panels that show the identified structures. Because of the large number of structures and the number of panels in each Figure, it would be ideal to follow the same pattern in the remaining figures.

      (2) Several edits are needed in the legend for Figure 1 Supplement Figure 1. The descriptions of a-f could be improved by providing general terms to describe the brain regions associated with the latter list of abbreviations (as has been done with the identification of the cerebral cortex, hippocampus, and olfactory centers and their related panels). One suggestion would be to write out insula, claustrum, and endopiriform prior to listing the abbreviations (AI, CLA, EP) (b-c) and adding amygdaloid complex and extended amygdala before the abbreviations (COA, BLA, MeA) (d-f) and (BST) (d).

      We thank the reviewer, as the suggestion of further expanding the abbreviations is a good one. As such, we have revised/reorganized the anatomical abbreviations in the figure legends for Figure 1 Supplement Figures 1, 2, and 3.

      Descriptions for Panels g-j require editing to link the appropriate panels and the descriptions. Panels for BSTpr appear to be g-h (rather than f-g) and i,j (rather than h-i.

      We have fixed this typo in the legend for Figure 1 Supplement Figure 1.

      Descriptions for Panels k-n could be edited to include abbreviations for the identified brain regions. For example, include the abbreviation ARHP after arcuate nuclei and indicate panels m-n (rather than j-l); include PVP after paraventricular and indicate panel n (rather than m); include DMPH after dorsomedial nuclei and indicate k-m (rather than j-l).

      Thank you for the suggestion. We have expanded the abbreviations in Figure 1 Supplement 1 accordingly.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Please clarify if tdTomato, EGFP (from helper AAVs), and RFP (from rabies virus) are native signals or IHC signals in legends.

      We have added the descriptors “native” or “stained” to all figure legends containing fluorescent images.

      (2) Fig. 4b and c: Please add insets of high-magnification images showing AAC boutons along AnkG-labeled AISs.

      We have added these insets to Fig. 4b and c.

      (3) Fig. 7S1: It appears that d and e are reversed. Judging from the positions of starter cells, d is for PV-Cre? Please make sure. It is also better to draw the laminar border in d and e.

      The original genotype labels are correct for Fig. 7S1 d and e. We have added the laminar borders as suggested.

      (4) Fig. 9b: Just for consistency, please label with the name of the helper AAV.

      Added.

      (5) Line 617: intragranular>>>infragranular?

      Corrected, thank you.

      (6) It may be unclear to some readers if the images in the figures are from confocal or STP. The authors may want to clarify that all images in the figures are generated by confocal microscopy in the method section.

      We have clarified this better in the methods section, “Microcopy and image analysis.”

      (7) The authors should clarify that STP was used to map input cells to the brain in the result section.

      We have added this description in the results section.

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      Reply to the reviewers

      Reply to the Reviewers

      We thank the referees for their careful reading of the manuscript and their valuable suggestions for improvements.

      General Statements:

      Existing SMC-based loop extrusion models successfully predict and characterize mesoscale genome spatial organization in vertebrate organisms, providing a valuable computational tool to the genome organization and chromatin biology fields. However, to date this approach is highly limited in its application beyond vertebrate organisms. This limitation arises because existing models require knowledge of CTCF binding sites, which act as effective boundary elements, blocking loop-extruding SMC complexes and thus defining TAD boundaries. However, CTCF is the predominant boundary element only in vertebrates. On the other hand, vertebrates only contain a small proportion of species in the tree of life, while TADs are nearly universal and SMC complexes are largely conserved. Thus, there is a pressing need for loop extrusion models capable of predicting Hi-C maps in organisms beyond vertebrates.

      The conserved-current loop extrusion (CCLE) model, introduced in this manuscript, extends the quantitative application of loop extrusion models in principle to any organism by liberating the model from the lack of knowledge regarding the identities and functions of specific boundary elements. By converting the genomic distribution of loop extruding cohesin into an ensemble of dynamic loop configurations via a physics-based approach, CCLE outputs three-dimensional (3D) chromatin spatial configurations that can be manifested in simulated Hi-C maps. We demonstrate that CCLE-generated maps well describe experimental Hi-C data at the TAD-scale. Importantly, CCLE achieves high accuracy by considering cohesin-dependent loop extrusion alone, consequently both validating the loop extrusion model in general (as opposed to diffusion-capture-like models proposed as alternatives to loop extrusion) and providing evidence that cohesin-dependent loop extrusion plays a dominant role in shaping chromatin organization beyond vertebrates.

      The success of CCLE unambiguously demonstrates that knowledge of the cohesin distribution is sufficient to reconstruct TAD-scale 3D chromatin organization. Further, CCLE signifies a shifted paradigm from the concept of localized, well-defined boundary elements, manifested in the existing CTCF-based loop extrusion models, to a concept also encompassing a continuous distribution of position-dependent loop extrusion rates. This new paradigm offers greater flexibility in recapitulating diverse features in Hi-C data than strictly localized loop extrusion barriers.

      Reviewer #1 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      This manuscript presents a mathematical model for loop extrusion called the conserved-current loop extrusion model (CCLE). The model uses cohesin ChIP-Seq data to predict the Hi-C map and shows broad agreement between experimental Hi-C maps and simulated Hi-C maps. They test the model on Hi-C data from interphase fission yeast and meiotic budding yeast. The conclusion drawn by the authors is that peaks of cohesin represent loop boundaries in these situations, which they also propose extends to other organism/situations where Ctcf is absent.

      __Response: __

      We would like to point out that the referee's interpretation of our results, namely that, "The conclusion drawn by the authors is that peaks of cohesin represent loop boundaries in these situations, ...", is an oversimplification, that we do not subscribe to. The referee's interpretation of our model is correct when there are strong, localized barriers to loop extrusion; however, the CCLE model allows for loop extrusion rates that are position-dependent and take on a range of values. The CCLE model also allows the loop extrusion model to be applied to organisms without known boundary elements. Thus, the strict interpretation of the positions of cohesin peaks to be loop boundaries overlooks a key idea to emerge from the CCLE model.

      __ Major comments:__

      1. More recent micro-C/Hi-C maps, particularly for budding yeast mitotic cells and meiotic cells show clear puncta, representative of anchored loops, which are not well recapitulated in the simulated data from this study. However, such punta are cohesin-dependent as they disappear in the absence of cohesin and are enhanced in the absence of the cohesin release factor, Wapl. For example - see the two studies below. The model is therefore missing some key elements of the loop organisation. How do the authors explain this discrepency? It would also be very useful to test whether the model can predict the increased strength of loop anchors when Wapl1 is removed and cohesin levels increase.

      Costantino L, Hsieh TS, Lamothe R, Darzacq X, Koshland D. Cohesin residency determines chromatin loop patterns. Elife. 2020 Nov 10;9:e59889. doi: 10.7554/eLife.59889. PMID: 33170773; PMCID: PMC7655110. Barton RE, Massari LF, Robertson D, Marston AL. Eco1-dependent cohesin acetylation anchors chromatin loops and cohesion to define functional meiotic chromosome domains. Elife. 2022 Feb 1;11:e74447. doi: 10.7554/eLife.74447. Epub ahead of print. PMID: 35103590; PMCID: PMC8856730.

      __Response: __

      We are perplexed by this referee comment. While we agree that puncta representing loop anchors are a feature of Hi-C maps, as noted by the referee, we would reinforce that our CCLE simulations of meiotic budding yeast (Figs. 5A and 5B of the original manuscript) demonstrate an overall excellent description of the experimental meiotic budding yeast Hi-C map, including puncta arising from loop anchors. This CCLE model-experiment agreement for meiotic budding yeast is described and discussed in detail in the original manuscript and the revised manuscript (lines 336-401).

      To further emphasize and extend this point we now also address the Hi-C of mitotic budding yeast, which was not included the original manuscript. We have now added an entire new section of the revised manuscript entitled "CCLE Describes TADs and Loop Configurations in Mitotic S. cerevisiae" including the new Figure 6, which presents a comparison between a portion of the mitotic budding yeast Hi-C map from Costantino et al. and the corresponding CCLE simulation at 500 bp-resolution. In this case too, the CCLE model well-describes the data, including the puncta, further addressing the referee's concern that the CCLE model is missing some key elements of loop organization.

      Concerning the referee's specific comment about the role of Wapl, we note that in order to apply CCLE when Wapl is removed, the corresponding cohesin ChIP-seq in the absence of Wapl should be available. To our knowledge, such data is not currently available and therefore we have not pursued this explicitly. However, we would reinforce that as Wapl is a factor that promotes cohesin unloading, its role is already effectively represented in the optimized value for LEF processivity, which encompasses LEF lifetime. In other words, if Wapl has a substantial effect it will be captured already in this model parameter.

      1. Related to the point above, the simulated data has much higher resolution than the experimental data (1kb vs 10kb in the fission yeast dataset). Given that loop size is in the 20-30kb range, a good resolution is important to see the structural features of the chromosomes. Can the model observe these details that are averaged out when the resolution is increased?

      __Response: __

      We agree with the referee that higher resolution is preferable to low resolution. In practice, however, there is a trade-off between resolution and noise. The first experimental interphase fission yeast Hi-C data of Mizuguchi et al 2014 corresponds to 10 kb resolution. To compare our CCLE simulations to these published experimental data, as described in the original manuscript, we bin our 1-kb-resolution simulations to match the 10 kb experimental measurements. Nevertheless, CCLE can readily predict the interphase fission yeast Hi-C map at higher resolution by reducing the bin size (or, if necessary, reducing the lattice site size of the simulations themselves). In the revised manuscript, we have added comparisons between CCLE's predicted Hi-C maps and newer Micro-C data for S. pombe from Hsieh et al. (Ref. [50]) in the new Supplementary Figures 5-9. We have chosen to present these comparisons at 2 kb resolution, which is the same resolution for our meiotic budding yeast comparisons. Also included in Supplementary Figures 5-9 are comparisons between the original Hi-C maps of Mizuguchi et al. and the newer maps of Hsieh et al., binned to 10 kb resolution. Inspection of these figures shows that CCLE provides a good description of Hsieh et al.'s experimental Hi-C maps and does not reveal any major new features in the interphase fission yeast Hi-C map on the 10-100 kb scale, that were not already apparent from the Hi-C maps of Mizuguchi et al 2014. Thus, the CCLE model performs well across this range of effective resolutions.

      3. Transcription, particularly convergent has been proposed to confer boundaries to loop extrusion. Can the authors recapitulate this in their model?

      __Response: __

      In response to the suggestion of the reviewer we have now calculated the correlation between cohesin ChIP-seq and the locations of convergent gene pairs, which is now presented in Supplementary Figures 17 and 18. Accordingly, in the revised manuscript, we have added the following text to the Discussion (lines 482-498):

      "In vertebrates, CTCF defines the locations of most TAD boundaries. It is interesting to ask what might play that role in interphase S. pombe as well as in meiotic and mitotic S. cerevisiae. A number of papers have suggested that convergent gene pairs are correlated with cohesin ChIP-seq in both S. pombe [65, 66] and S. cerevisiae [66-71]. Because CCLE ties TADs to cohesin ChIP-seq, a strong correlation between cohesin ChIP-seq and convergent gene pairs would be an important clue to the mechanism of TAD formation in yeasts. To investigate this correlation, we introduce a convergent-gene variable that has a nonzero value between convergent genes and an integrated weight of unity for each convergent gene pair. Supplementary Figure 17A shows the convergent gene variable, so-defined, alongside the corresponding cohesin ChIP-seq for meiotic and mitotic S. cerevisiae. It is apparent from this figure that a peak in the ChIP-seq data is accompanied by a non-zero value of the convergent-gene variable in about 80% of cases, suggesting that chromatin looping in meiotic and mitotic S. cerevisiae may indeed be tied to convergent genes. Conversely, about 50% of convergent genes match peaks in cohesin ChIP-seq. The cross-correlation between the convergent-gene variable and the ChIP-seq of meiotic and mitotic S. cerevisiae is quantified in Supplementary Figures 17B and C. By contrast, in interphase S. pombe, cross-correlation between convergent genes and cohesin ChIP-seq in each of five considered regions is unobservably small (Supplementary Figure 18A), suggesting that convergent genes per se do not have a role in defining TAD boundaries in interphase S. pombe."

      Minor comments:

      1. In the discussion, the authors cite the fact that Mis4 binding sites do not give good prediction of the HI-C maps as evidence that Mis4 is not important for loop extrusion. This can only be true if the position of Mis4 measured by ChIP is a true reflection of Mis4 position. However, Mis4 binding to cohesin/chromatin is very dynamic and it is likely that this is too short a time scale to be efficiently cross-linked for ChIP. Conversely, extensive experimental data in vivo and in vitro suggest that stimulation of cohesin's ATPase by Mis4-Ssl3 is important for loop extrusion activity.

      __Response: __

      We apologize for the confusion on this point. We actually intended to convey that the absence of Mis4-Psc3 correlations in S. pombe suggests, from the point of view of CCLE, that Mis4 is not an integral component of loop-extruding cohesin, during the loop extrusion process itself. We agree completely that Mis4/Ssl3 is surely important for cohesin loading, and (given that cohesin is required for loop extrusion) Mis4/Ssl3 is therefore important for loop extrusion. Evidently, this part of our Discussion was lacking sufficient clarity. In response to both referees' comments, we have re-written the discussion of Mis4 and Pds5 to more carefully explain our reasoning and be more circumspect in our inferences. The re-written discussion is described below in response to Referee #2's comments.

      Nevertheless, on the topic of whether Nipbl-cohesin binding is too transient to be detected in ChIP-seq, the FRAP analysis presented by Rhodes et al. eLife 6:e30000 "Scc2/Nipbl hops between chromosomal cohesin rings after loading" indicates that, in HeLa cells, Nipbl has a residence time bound to cohesin of about 50 seconds. As shown in the bottom panel of Supplementary Fig. 7 in the original manuscript (and the bottom panel of Supplementary Fig. 20 in the revised manuscript), there is a significant cross-correlation (~0.2) between the Nipbl ChIP-seq and Smc1 ChIP-seq in humans, indicating that a transient association between Nipbl and cohesin can be (and in fact is) detected by ChIP-seq.

      1. *Inclusion of a comparison of this model compared to previous models (for example bottom up models) would be extremely useful. What is the improvement of this model over existing models? *

      __Response: __

      As stated in the original manuscript, as far as we are aware, "bottom up" models, that quantitatively describe the Hi-C maps of interphase fission yeast or meiotic budding yeast or, indeed, of eukaryotes other than vertebrates, do not exist. Bottom-up models would require knowledge of the relevant boundary elements (e.g. CTCF sites), which, as stated in the submitted manuscript, are generally unknown for fission yeast, budding yeast, and other non-vertebrate eukaryotes. The absence of such models is the reason that CCLE fills an important need. Since bottom-up models for cohesin loop extrusion in yeast do not exist, we cannot compare CCLE to the results of such models.

      In the revised manuscript we now explicitly compare the CCLE model to the only bottom-up type of model describing the Hi-C maps of non-vertebrate eukaryotes by Schalbetter et al. Nat. Commun. 10:4795 2019, which we did cite extensively in our original manuscript. Schalbetter et al. use cohesin ChIP-seq peaks to define the positions of loop extrusion barriers in meiotic S. cerevisiae, for which the relevant boundary elements are unknown. In their model, specifically, when a loop-extruding cohesin anchor encounters such a boundary element, it either passes through with a certain probability, as if no boundary element is present, or stops extruding completely until the cohesin unbinds and rebinds.

      In the revised manuscript we refer to this model as the "explicit barrier" model and have applied it to interphase S. pombe, using cohesin ChIP-seq peaks to define the positions of loop extrusion barriers. The corresponding simulated Hi-C map is presented in Supplementary Fig. 19 in comparison with the experimental Hi-C. It is evident that the explicit barrier model provides a poorer description of the Hi-C data of interphase S. pombe compared to the CCLE model, as indicated by the MPR and Pearson correlation scores. While the explicit barrier model appears capable of accurately reproducing Hi-C data with punctate patterns, typically accompanied by strong peaks in the corresponding cohesin ChIP-seq, it seems less effective in several conditions including interphase S. pombe, where the Hi-C data lacks punctate patterns and sharp TAD boundaries, and the corresponding cohesin ChIP-seq shows low-contrast peaks. The success of the CCLE model in describing the Hi-C data of both S. pombe and S. cerevisiae, which exhibit very different features, suggests that the current paradigm of localized, well-defined boundary elements may not be the only approach to understanding loop extrusion. By contrast, CCLE allows for a concept of continuous distribution of position-dependent loop extrusion rates, arising from the aggregate effect of multiple interactions between loop extrusion complexes and chromatin. This paradigm offers greater flexibility in recapitulating diverse features in Hi-C data than strictly localized loop extrusion barriers.

      We have also added the following paragraph in the Discussion section of the manuscript to elaborate this point (lines 499-521):

      "Although 'bottom-up' models which incorporate explicit boundary elements do not exist for non-vertebrate eukaryotes, one may wonder how well such LEF models, if properly modified and applied, would perform in describing Hi-C maps with diverse features. To this end, we examined the performance of the model described in Ref. [49] in describing the Hi-C map of interphase S. cerevisiae. Reference [49] uses cohesin ChIP-seq peaks in meiotic S. cerevisiae to define the positions of loop extrusion barriers which either completely stall an encountering LEF anchor with a certain probability or let it pass. We apply this 'explicit barrier' model to interphase S. pombe, using its cohesin ChIP-seq peaks to define the positions of loop extrusion barriers, and using Ref. [49]'s best-fit value of 0.05 for the pass-through probability. Supplementary Figure 19A presents the corresponding simulated Hi-C map the 0.3-1.3 kb region of Chr 2 of interphase S. pombe in comparison with the corresponding Hi-C data. It is evident that the explicit barrier model provides a poorer description of the Hi-C data of interphase S. pombe compared to the CCLE model, as indicated by the MPR and Pearson correlation scores of 1.6489 and 0.2267, respectively. While the explicit barrier model appears capable of accurately reproducing Hi-C data with punctate patterns, typically accompanied by strong peaks in the corresponding cohesin ChIP-seq, it seems less effective in cases such as in interphase S. pombe, where the Hi-C data lacks punctate patterns and sharp TAD boundaries, and the corresponding cohesin ChIP-seq shows low-contrast peaks. The success of the CCLE model in describing the Hi-C data of both S. pombe and S. cerevisiae, which exhibit very different features, suggests that the current paradigm of localized, well-defined boundary elements may not be the only approach to understanding loop extrusion. By contrast, CCLE allows for a concept of continuous distribution of position-dependent loop extrusion rates, arising from the aggregate effect of multiple interactions between loop extrusion complexes and chromatin. This paradigm offers greater flexibility in recapitulating diverse features in Hi-C data than strictly localized loop extrusion barriers."

      Reviewer #1 (Significance (Required)):

      This simple model is useful to confirm that cohesin positions dictate the position of loops, which was predicted already and proposed in many studies. However, it should be considered a starting point as it does not faithfully predict all the features of chromatin organisation, particularly at better resolution.

      Response:

      As described in more detail above, we do not agree with the assertion of the referee that the CCLE model "does not faithfully predict all the features of chromatin organization, particularly at better resolution" and provide additional new data to support the conclusion that the CCLE model provides a much needed approach to model non-vertebrate contact maps and outperforms the single prior attempt to predict budding yeast Hi-C data using information from cohesin ChIP-seq.

      *It will mostly be of interest to those in the chromosome organisation field, working in organisms or systems that do not have ctcf. *

      __Response: __

      We agree that this work will be of special interest to researchers working on chromatin organization of non-vertebrate organisms. We would reinforce that yeast are frequently used models for the study of cohesin, condensin, and chromatin folding more generally. Indeed, in the last two months alone there are two Molecular Cell papers, one Nature Genetics paper, and one Cell Reports paper where loop extrusion in yeast models is directly relevant. We also believe, however, that the model will be of interest for the field in general as it simultaneously encompasses various scenarios that may lead to slowing down or stalling of LEFs.

      This reviewer is a cell biologist working in the chromosome organisation field, but does not have modelling experience and therefore does not have the expertise to determine if the modelling part is mathematically sound and has assumed that it is.

      Reviewer #2 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      Summary: Yuan et al. report on their development of an analytical model ("CCLE") for loop extrusion with genomic-position-dependent speed, with the idea of accounting for barriers to loop extrusion. They write down master equations for the probabilities of cohesin occupancy at each genomic site and obtain approximate steady-state solutions. Probabilities are governed by cohesin translocation, loading, and unloading. Using ChIP-seq data as an experimental measurement of these probabilities, they numerically fit the model parameters, among which are extruder density and processivity. Gillespie simulations with these parameters combined with a 3D Gaussian polymer model were integrated to generate simulated Hi-C maps and cohesin ChIP-seq tracks, which show generally good agreement with the experimental data. The authors argue that their modeling provides evidence that loop extrusion is the primary mechanism of chromatin organization on ~10-100 kb scales in S. pombe and S. cerevisiae.

      Major comments:

      1. I am unconvinced that this analysis specifically is sufficient to demonstrate that extrusion is the primary organizer of chromatin on these scales; moreover, the need to demonstrate this is questionable, as extrusion is widely accepted, even if not universally so. How is the agreement of CCLE with experiments more demonstrative of loop extrusion than previous modeling?

      __Response: __

      We agree with the referee's statement that "loop extrusion is extrusion is widely accepted, even if not universally so". We disagree with the referee that this state of affairs means that "the need to demonstrate this (i.e. loop extrusion) is questionable". On the contrary, studies that provide further compelling evidence that cohesin-based loop extrusion is the primary organizer of chromatin, such as ours, must surely be welcomed, first, in order to persuade those who remain unconvinced by the loop extrusion mechanism in general, and, secondly, because, until the present work, quantitative models of loop extrusion, capable of reproducing Hi-C maps quantitatively, in yeasts and other non-vertebrate eukaryotes have been lacking, leaving open the question of whether loop extrusion can describe Hi-C maps beyond vertebrates. CCLE has now answered that question in the affirmative. Moreover, the existence of a robust model to predict contact maps in non-vertebrate models, which are extensively used in the pursuit of research questions in chromatin biology, will be broadly enabling to the field.

      It is fundamental that if a simple, physically-plausible model/hypothesis is able to describe experimental data quantitatively, it is indeed appropriate to ascribe considerable weight to that model/hypothesis (until additional data become available to refute the model).

      How is the agreement of CCLE with experiments more demonstrative of loop extrusion than previous modeling?

      Response:

      As noted above and in the original manuscript, we are unaware of previous quantitative modeling of cohesin-based loop extrusion and the resultant Hi-C maps in organisms that lack CTCF, namely non-vertebrate eukaryotic models such as fission yeast or budding yeast, as we apply here. As noted in the original manuscript, previous quantitative modeling of Hi-C maps based on cohesin loop extrusion and CTCF boundary elements has been convincing that loop extrusion is indeed relevant in vertebrates, but the restriction to vertebrates excludes most of the tree of life.

      Below, the referee cites two examples of loop extrusion outside of vertebrates. The one that is suggested to correspond to yeast cells (Dequeker et al. Nature 606:197 2022) actually corresponds to mouse cells, which are vertebrate cells. The other one models the Hi-C map of the prokaryote, Bacillus subtilis, based on loop extrusion of the bacterial SMC complex thought to most resemble condensin (not cohesin), subject to barriers to loop extrusion that are related to genes or involving prokaryote-specific Par proteins (Brandao et al. PNAS 116:20489 2019). We have referenced this work in the revised manuscript but would reinforce that it lacks utility in predicting the contact maps for non-vertebrate eukaryotes.

      Relatedly, similar best fit values for S. pombe and S. cerevisiae might not point to a mechanistic conclusion (same "underlying mechanism" of loop extrusion), but rather to similar properties for loop-extruding cohesins in the two species.

      Response:

      In the revised manuscript, we have replaced "suggesting that the underlying mechanism that governs loop extrusion by cohesin is identical in both species" with "suggesting loop-extruding cohesins possess similar properties in both species" (lines 367-368).

      As an alternative, could a model with variable binding probability given by ChIP-seq and an exponential loop-size distribution work equally well? The stated lack of a dependence on extrusion timescale suggests that a static looping model might succeed. If not, why not?

      Response:

      A hypothetical mechanism that generates the same instantaneous loop distributions and correlations as loop extrusion would lead to the same Hi-C map as does loop extrusion. This circumstance is not confined to CCLE, but is equally applicable to previous CTCF-based loop extrusion models. It holds because Hi-C and ChIP-seq, and therefore models that seek to describe these measurements, provide a snapshot of the chromatin configuration at one instant of time.

      We would reinforce that there is no physical basis for a diffusion capture model with an approximately-exponential loop size distributions. Nevertheless, one can reasonably ask whether a physically-sensible diffusion capture model can simultaneously match cohesin ChIP-seq and Hi-C. Motivated by the referee's comment we have addressed this question and, accordingly, in the revised manuscript, we have added (1) an entire subsection entitled "Diffusion capture does not reproduce experimental interphase S. pombe Hi-C maps" (lines 303-335) and (2) Supplementary Figure 15. As we now demonstrate, the CCLE model vastly outperforms an equilibrium binding model in reproducing the experimental Hi-C maps and measured P(s).

      *2. I do not understand how the loop extrusion residence time drops out. As I understand it, Eq 9 converts ChIP-seq to lattice site probability (involving N_{LEF}, which is related to \rho, and \rho_c). Then, Eqs. 3-4 derive site velocities V_n and U_n if we choose rho, L, and \tau, with the latter being the residence time. This parameter is not specified anywhere and is claimed to be unimportant. It may be true that the choice of timescale is arbitrary in this procedure, but can the authors please clarify? *

      __Response: __

      As noted above, Hi-C and ChIP-seq both capture chromatin configuration at one instant in time. Therefore, such measurements cannot and do not provide any time-scale information, such as the loop extrusion residence time (LEF lifetime) or the mean loop extrusion rate. For this reason, neither our CCLE simulations, nor other researchers' previous simulations of loop extrusion in vertebrates with CTCF boundary elements, provide any time-scale information, because the experiments they seek to describe do not contain time-scale information. The Hi-C map simulations can and do provide information concerning the loop size, which is the product of the loop lifetime and the loop extrusion rate. Lines 304-305 of the revised manuscript include the text: "Because Hi-C and ChIP-seq both characterize chromatin configuration at a single instant of time, and do not provide any direct time-scale information, ..."

      In practice, we set the LEF lifetime to be some explicit value with arbitrary time-unit. We have added a sentence in the Methods that reads, "In practice, however, we set the LEF dissociation rate to 5e-4 time-unit-1 (equivalent to a lifetime of 2000 time-units), and the nominal LEF extrusion rate (aka \rho*L/\tau, see Supplementary Methods) can be determined from the given processivity" (lines 599-602), to clarify this point. We have also changed the terminology from "timesteps" to "LEF events" in the manuscript as the latter is more accurate for our purpose.

      1. The assumptions in the solution and application of the CCLE model are potentially constraining to a limited number of scenarios. In particular the authors specify that current due to binding/unbinding, A_n - D_n, is small. This assumption could be problematic near loading sites (centromeres, enhancers in higher eukaryotes, etc.) (where current might be dominated by A_n and V_n), unloading sites (D_n and V_{n-1}), or strong boundaries (D_n and V_{n-1}). The latter scenario is particularly concerning because the manuscript seems to be concerned with the presence of unidentified boundaries. This is partially mitigated by the fact that the model seems to work well in the chosen examples, but the authors should discuss the limitations due to their assumptions and/or possible methods to get around these limitations.

      4. Related to the above concern, low cohesin occupancy is interpreted as a fast extrusion region and high cohesin occupancy is interpreted as a slow region. But this might not be true near cohesin loading and unloading sites.

      __Response: __

      Our response to Referee 2's Comments 3. and 4. is that both in the original manuscript and in the revised manuscript we clearly delineate the assumptions underlying CCLE and we carefully assess the extent to which these assumptions are violated (lines 123-126 and 263-279 in the revised manuscript). For example, Supplementary Figure 12 shows that across the S. pombe genome as a whole, violations of the CCLE assumptions are small. Supplementary Figure 13 shows that violations are similarly small for meiotic S. cerevisiae. However, to explicitly address the concern of the referee, we have added the following sentences to the revised manuscript:

      Lines 277-279:

      "While loop extrusion in interphase S. pombe seems to well satisfy the assumptions underlying CCLE, this may not always be the case in other organisms."

      Lines 359-361:

      "In addition, the three quantities, given by Eqs. 6, 7, and 8, are distributed around zero with relatively small fluctuations (Supplementary Fig. 13), indicating that CCLE model is self-consistent in this case also."

      In the case of mitotic S. cerevisiae, Supplementary Figure 14 shows that these quantities are small for most of genomic locations, except near the cohesin ChIP-seq peaks. We ascribe these greater violations of CCLE's assumptions at the locations of cohesin peaks in part to the low processivity of mitotic cohesin in S. cerevisiae, compared to that of meiotic S. cerevisiae and interphase S. pombe, and in part to the low CCLE loop extrusion rate at the cohesin peaks. We have added a paragraph at the end of the Section "CCLE Describes TADs and Loop Configurations in Mitotic S. cerevisiae" to reflect these observations (lines 447-461).

      1. *The mechanistic insight attempted in the discussion, specifically with regard to Mis4/Scc2/NIPBL and Pds5, is problematic. First, it is not clear how the discussion of Nipbl and Pds5 is connected to the CCLE method; the justification is that CCLE shows cohesin distribution is linked to cohesin looping, which is already a questionable statement (point 1) and doesn't really explain how the model offers new insight into existing Nipbl and Pds5 data. *

      Furthermore, I believe that the conclusions drawn on this point are flawed, or at least, stated with too much confidence. The authors raise the curious point that Nipbl ChIP-seq does not correlate well with cohesin ChIP-seq, and use this as evidence that Nipbl is not a part of the loop-extruding complex in S. pombe, and it is not essential in humans. Aside from the molecular evidence in human Nipbl/cohesin (acknowledged by authors), there are other reasons to doubt this conclusion. First, depletion of Nipbl (rather than binding partner Mau2 as in ref 55) in mouse cells strongly inhibits TAD formation (Schwarzer et al. Nature 551:51 2017). Second, at least two studies have raised concerns about Nibpl ChIP-seq results: 1) Hu et al. Nucleic Acids Res 43:e132 2015, which shows that uncalibrated ChIP-seq can obscure the signal of protein localization throughout the genome due to the inability to distinguish from background * and 2) Rhodes et al. eLife 6:e30000, which uses FRAP to show that Nipbl binds and unbinds to cohesin rapidly in human cells, which could go undetected in ChIP-seq, especially when uncalibrated. It has not been shown that these dynamics are present in yeast, but there is no reason to rule it out yet.*

      Similar types of critiques could be applied to the discussion of Pds5. There is cross-correlation between Psc3 and Pds5 in S. pombe, but the authors are unable to account for whether Pds5 binding is transient and/or necessary to loop extrusion itself or, more importantly, whether Pds5 ChIP is associated with extrusive or cohesive cohesins; cross-correlation peaks at about 0.6, but note that by the authors own estimates, cohesive cohesins are approximately half of all cohesins in S. pombe (Table 3).

      *Due to the above issues, I suggest that the authors heavily revise this discussion to better reflect the current experimental understanding and the limited ability to draw such conclusions based on the current CCLE model. *

      __Response: __

      As stated above, our study demonstrates that the CCLE approach is able to take as input cohesin (Psc3) ChIP-seq data and produce as output simulated Hi-C maps that well reproduce the experimental Hi-C maps of interphase S. pombe and meiotic S. cerevisiae. This result is evident from the multiple Hi-C comparison figures in both the original and the revised manuscripts. In light of this circumstance, the referee's statement that it is "questionable", that CCLE shows that cohesin distribution (as quantified by cohesin ChIP-seq) is linked to cohesin looping (as quantified by Hi-C), is demonstrably incorrect.

      However, we did not intend to suggest that Nipbl and Pds5 are not crucial for cohesin loading, as the reviewer states. Rather, our inquiries relate to a more nuanced question of whether these factors only reside at loading sites or, instead, remain as a more long-lived constituent component of the loop extrusion complex. We regret any confusion and have endeavored to clarify this point in the revised manuscript in response to Referee 2's Comment 5. as well as Referee 1's Minor Comment 1. We have now better explained how the CCLE model may offer new insight from existing ChIP-seq data in general and from Mis4/Nipbl and Pds5 ChIP-seq, in particular. Accordingly, we have followed Referee 2's advice to heavily revise the relevant section of the Discussion.

      To this end, we have removed the following text from the original manuscript:

      "The fact that the cohesin distribution along the chromatin is strongly linked to chromatin looping, as evident by the success of the CCLE model, allows for new insights into in vivo LEF composition and function. For example, recently, two single-molecule studies [37, 38] independently found that Nipbl, which is the mammalian analogue of Mis4, is an obligate component of the loop-extruding human cohesin complex. Ref. [37] also found that cohesin complexes containing Pds5, instead of Nipbl, are unable to extrude loops. On this basis, Ref. [32] proposed that, while Nipbl-containing cohesin is responsible for loop extrusion, Pds5-containing cohesin is responsible for sister chromatid cohesion, neatly separating cohesin's two functions according to composition. However, the success of CCLE in interphase S. pombe, together with the observation that the Mis4 ChIP-seq signal is uncorrelated with the Psc3 ChIP-seq signal (Supplementary Fig. 7) allows us to infer that Mis4 cannot be a component of loop-extruding cohesin in S. pombe. On the other hand, Pds5 is correlated with Psc3 in S. pombe (Supplementary Fig. 7) suggesting that both proteins are involved in loop-extruding cohesin, contradicting a hypothesis that Pds5 is a marker for cohesive cohesin in S. pombe. In contrast to the absence of Mis4-Psc3 correlation in S. pombe, in humans, Nipbl ChIP-seq and Smc1 ChIP-seq are correlated (Supplementary Fig. 7), consistent with Ref. [32]'s hypothesis that Nipbl can be involved in loop-extruding cohesin in humans. However, Ref. [55] showed that human Hi-C contact maps in the absence of Nipbl's binding partner, Mau2 (Ssl3 in S. pombe [56]) show clear TADs, consistent with loop extrusion, albeit with reduced long-range contacts in comparison to wild-type maps, indicating that significant loop extrusion continues in live human cells in the absence of Nipbl-Mau2 complexes. These collected observations suggest the existence of two populations of loop-extruding cohesin complexes in vivo, one that involves Nipbl-Mau2 and one that does not. Both types are present in mammals, but only Mis4-Ssl3-independent loop-extruding cohesin is present in S. pombe."

      And we have replaced it by the following text in the revised manuscript (lines 533-568):

      "As noted above, the input for our CCLE simulations of chromatin organization in S. pombe, was the ChIP-seq of Psc3, which is a component of the cohesin core complex [75]. Accordingly, Psc3 ChIP-seq represents how the cohesin core complex is distributed along the genome. In S. pombe, the other components of the cohesin core complex are Psm1, Psm3, and Rad21. Because these proteins are components of the cohesin core complex, we expect that the ChIP-seq of any of these proteins would closely match the ChIP-seq of Psc3, and would equally well serve as input for CCLE simulations of S. pombe genome organization. Supplementary Figure 20C confirms significant correlations between Psc3 and Rad21. In light of this observation, we then reason that the CCLE approach offers the opportunity to investigate whether other proteins beyond the cohesin core are constitutive components of the loop extrusion complex during the extrusion process (as opposed to cohesin loading or unloading). To elaborate, if the ChIP-seq of a non-cohesin-core protein is highly correlated with the ChIP-seq of a cohesin core protein, we can infer that the protein in question is associated with the cohesin core and therefore is a likely participant in loop-extruding cohesin, alongside the cohesin core. Conversely, if the ChIP-seq of a putative component of the loop-extruding cohesin complex is uncorrelated with the ChIP-seq of a cohesin core protein, then we can infer that the protein in question is unlikely to be a component of loop-extruding cohesin, or at most is transiently associated with it.

      For example, in S. pombe, the ChIP-seq of the cohesin regulatory protein, Pds5 [74], is correlated with the ChIP-seq of Psc3 (Supplementary Fig. 20B) and with that of Rad21 (Supplementary Fig. 20D), suggesting that Pds5 can be involved in loop-extruding cohesin in S. pombe, alongside the cohesin core proteins. Interestingly, this inference concerning fission yeast cohesin subunit, Pds5, stands in contrast to the conclusion from a recent single-molecule study [38] concerning cohesin in vertebrates. Specifically, Reference [38] found that cohesin complexes containing Pds5, instead of Nipbl, are unable to extrude loops.

      Additionally, as noted above, in S. pombe the ChIP-seq signal of the cohesin loader, Mis4, is uncorrelated with the Psc3 ChIP-seq signal (Supplementary Fig. 20A), suggesting that Mis4 is, at most, a very transient component of loop-extruding cohesin in S. pombe, consistent with its designation as a "cohesin loader". However, both References [38] and [39] found that Nipbl (counterpart of S. pombe's Mis4) is an obligate component of the loop-extruding human cohesin complex, more than just a mere cohesin loader. Although CCLE has not yet been applied to vertebrates, from a CCLE perspective, the possibility that Nipbl may be required for the loop extrusion process in humans is bolstered by the observation that in humans Nipbl ChIP-seq and Smc1 ChIP-seq show significant correlations (Supplementary Fig. 20G), consistent with Ref. [32]'s hypothesis that Nipbl is involved in loop-extruding cohesin in vertebrates. A recent theoretical model of the molecular mechanism of loop extrusion by cohesin hypothesizes that transient binding by Mis4/Nipbl is essential for permitting directional reversals and therefore for two-sided loop extrusion [41]. Surprisingly, there are significant correlations between Mis4 and Pds5 in S. pombe (Supplementary Fig. 20E), indicating Pds5-Mis4 association, outside of the cohesin core complex."

      In response to Referee 2's specific comment that "at least two studies have raised concerns about Nibpl ChIP-seq results", we note (1) that, while Hu et al. Nucleic Acids Res 43:e132 2015 present a general method for calibrating ChIP-seq results, they do not measure Mis4/Nibpl ChIP-seq, nor do they raise any specific concerns about Mis4/Nipbl ChIP-seq, and (2) that (as noted above, in response to Referee 1's comment) while the FRAP analysis presented by Rhodes et al. eLife 6:e30000 indicates that, in HeLa cells, Nipbl has a residence time bound to cohesin of about 50 seconds, nevertheless, as shown in Supplementary Fig. 20G in the revised manuscript, there is a significant cross-correlation between the Nipbl ChIP-seq and Smc1 ChIP-seq in humans, indicating that a transient association between Nipbl and cohesin is detected by ChIP-seq, the referees' concerns notwithstanding.

      We thank the referee for pointing out Schwarzer et al. Nature 551:51 2017. However, our interpretation of these data is different than the referee's. As noted in our original manuscript, Nipbl has traditionally been considered to be a cohesin loading factor. If the role of Nipbl was solely to load cohesin, then we would expect that depleting Nipbl would have a major effect on the Hi-C map, because fewer cohesins are loaded onto the chromatin. Figure 2 of Schwarzer et al. Nature 551:51 2017, shows the effect of depleting Nibpl on a vertebrate Hi-C map. Even in this case when Nibpl is absent, this figure (Figure 2 of Schwarzer et al. Nature 551:51 2017) shows that TADs persist, albeit considerably attenuated. According to the authors' own analysis associated with Fig. 2 of their paper, these attenuated TADs correspond to a smaller number of loop-extruding cohesin complexes than in the presence of Nipbl. Since Nipbl is depleted, these loop-extruding cohesins necessarily cannot contain Nipbl. Thus, the data and analysis of Schwarzer et al. Nature 551:51 2017 actually seem consistent with the existence of a population of loop-extruding cohesin complexes that do not contain Nibpl.

      Concerning the referee's comment that we cannot be sure whether Pds5 ChIP is associated with extrusive or cohesive cohesin, we note that, as explained in the manuscript, we assume that the cohesive cohesins are uniformly distributed across the genome, and therefore that peaks in the cohesin ChIP-seq are associated with loop-extruding cohesins. The success of CCLE in describing Hi-C maps justifies this assumption a posteriori. Supplementary Figure 20B shows that the ChIP-seq of Pds5 is correlated with the ChIP-seq of Psc3 in S. pombe, that is, that peaks in the ChIP-seq of Psc3, assumed to derive from loop-extruding cohesin, are accompanied by peaks in the ChIP-seq of Pds5. This is the reasoning allowing us to associate Pds5 with loop-extruding cohesin in S. pombe.

      1. I suggest that the authors recalculate correlations for Hi-C maps using maps that are rescaled by the P(s) curves. As currently computed, most of the correlation between maps could arise from the characteristic decay of P(s) rather than smaller scale features of the contact maps. This could reduce the surprising observed correlation between distinct genomic regions in pombe (which, problematically, is higher than the observed correlation between simulation and experiment in cervisiae).

      Response:

      We thank the referee for this advice. Following this advice, throughout the revised manuscript, we have replaced our original calculation of the Pearson correlation coefficient of unscaled Hi-C maps with a calculation of the Pearson correlation coefficient of rescaled Hi-C maps. Since the MPR is formed from ratios of simulated to experimental Hi-C maps, this metric is unchanged by the proposed rescaling.

      As explained in the original manuscript, we attribute the lower experiment-simulation correlation in the meiotic budding yeast Hi-C maps to the larger statistical errors of the meiotic budding yeast dataset, which arises because of its higher genomic resolution - all else being equal we can expect 25 times the counts in a 10 kb x10 kb bin as in a 2 kb x 2 kb bin. For the same reason, we expect larger statistical errors in the mitotic budding yeast dataset as well. Lower correlations for noisier data are to be expected in general.

      *7. Please explain why the difference between right and left currents at any particular site, (R_n-L_n) / Rn+Ln, should be small. It seems easy to imagine scenarios where this might not be true, such as directional barriers like CTCF or transcribed genes. *

      __Response: __

      For simplicity, the present version of CCLE sets the site-dependent loop extrusion rates by assuming that the cohesin ChIP-seq signal has equal contributions from left and right anchors. Then, we carry out our simulations which subsequently allow us to examine the simulated left and right currents and their difference at every site. The distributions of normalized left-right difference currents are shown in Supplementary Figures 12B, 13B, and 14D, for interphase S. pombe, meiotic S. cerevisiae, and mitotic S. cerevisiae, respectively. They are all centered at zero with standard deviations of 0.12, 0.16, and 0.33. Thus, it emerges from our simulations that the difference current is indeed generally small.

      8. Optional, but I think would greatly improve the manuscript, but can the authors: a) analyze regions of high cohesin occupancy (assumed to be slow extrusion regions) to determine if there's anything special in these regions, such as more transcriptional activity

      __Response: __

      In response to Referee 1's similar comment, we have calculated the correlation between the locations of convergent genes and cohesin ChIP-seq. Supplementary Figure 18A in the revised manuscript shows that for interphase S. pombe no correlations are evident, whereas for both of meiotic and mitotic S. cerevisiae, there are significant correlations between these two quantities (Supplementary Fig. 17).

      *b) apply this methodology to vertebrate cell data *

      __Response: __

      The application of CCLE to vertebrate data is outside the scope of this paper which, as we have emphasized, has the goal of developing a model that can be robustly applied to non-vertebrate eukaryotic genomes. Nevertheless, CCLE is, in principle, applicable to all organisms in which loop extrusion by SMC complexes is the primary mechanism for chromatin spatial organization.

      1. *A Github link is provided but the code is not currently available. *

      __Response: __

      The code is now available.

      Minor Comments:

      1. Please state the simulated LEF lifetime, since the statement in the methods that 15000 timesteps are needed for equilibration of the LEF model is otherwise not meaningful. Additionally, please note that backbone length is not necessarily a good measure of steady state, since the backbone can be compacted to its steady-state value while the loop distribution continues to evolve toward its steady state.

      __Response: __

      The terminology "timesteps" used in the original manuscript in fact should mean "the number of LEF events performed" in the simulation. Therefore, we have changed the terminology from "timesteps" to "LEF events".

      The choice of 15000 LEF events is empirically determined to ensure that loop extrusion steady state is achieved, for the range of parameters considered. To address the referee's concern regarding the uncertainty of achieving steady state after 15000 LEF events, we compared two loop size distributions: each distribution encompasses 1000 data points, equally separated in time, one between LEF event 15000 and 35000, and the other between LEF event 80000 and 100000. The two distributions are within-errors identical, suggesting that the loop extrusion steady state is well achieved within 15000 LEF events.

      2. How important is the cohesive cohesin parameter in the model, e.g., how good are fits with \rho_c = 0?

      __Response: __

      As stated in the original manuscript, the errors on \rho_c on the order of 10%-20% (for S. pombe). Thus, fits with \rho_c=0 are significantly poorer than with the best-fit values of \rho_c.

      *3. A nice (but non-essential) supplemental visualization might be to show a scatter of sim cohesin occupancy vs. experiment ChIP. *

      __Response: __

      We have chosen not to do this, because we judge that the manuscript is already long enough. Figures 3A, 5D, and 6C already compare the experimental and simulated ChIP-seq, and these figures already contain more information than the figures proposed by the referee.

      1. *A similar calculation of Hi-C contacts based on simulated loop extruder positions using the Gaussian chain model was previously presented in Banigan et al. eLife 9:e53558 2020, which should be cited. *

      __Response: __

      We thank the referee for pointing out this citation. We have added it to the revised manuscript.

      1. It is stated that simulation agreement with experiments for cerevisiae is worse in part due to variability in the experiments, with MPR and Pearson numbers for cerevisiae replicates computed for reference. But these numbers are difficult to interpret without, for example, similar numbers for duplicate pombe experiments. Again, these numbers should be generated using Hi-C maps scaled by P(s), especially in case there are systematic errors in one replicate vs. another.

      __Response: __

      As noted above, throughout the revised manuscript, we now give the Pearson correlation coefficients of scaled-by-P(s) Hi-C maps.

      1. *In the model section, it is stated that LEF binding probabilities are uniformly distributed. Did the authors mean the probability is uniform across the genome or that the probability at each site is a uniformly distributed random number? Please clarify, and if the latter, explain why this unconventional assumption was made. *

      __Response: __

      It is the former. We have modified the manuscript to clarify that LEFs "initially bind to empty, adjacent chromatin lattice sites with a binding probability, that is uniformly distributed across the genome." (lines 587-588).

      *7. Supplement p4 line 86 - what is meant by "processivity of loops extruded by isolated LEFs"? "size of loops extruded by..." or "processivity of isolated LEFs"? *

      __Response: __

      Here "processivity of isolated LEFs" is defined as the processivity of one LEF without the interference (blocking) from other LEFs. We have changed "processivity of loops extruded by isolated LEFs" to "processivity of isolated LEFs" for clarity.

      1. The use of parentheticals in the caption to Table 2 is a little confusing; adding a few extra words would help.

      __Response: __

      In the revised manuscript, we have added an additional sentence, and have removed the offending parentheses.

      1. *Page 12 sentence line 315-318 is difficult to understand. The barrier parameter is apparently something from ref 47 not previously described in the manuscript. *

      __Response: __

      In the revised manuscript, we have removed mention of the "barrier parameter" from the discussion.

      1. *Statement on p14 line 393-4 is false: prior LEF models have not been limited to vertebrates, and the authors have cited some of them here. There are also non-vertebrate examples with extrusion barriers: genes as boundaries to condensin in bacteria (Brandao et al. PNAS 116:20489 2019) and MCM complexes as boundaries to cohesin in yeast (Dequeker et al. Nature 606:197 2022). *

      __Response: __

      In fact, Dequeker et al. Nature 606:197 2022 concerns the role of MCM complexes in blocking cohesin loop extrusion in mouse zygotes. Mouse is a vertebrate. The sole aspect of this paper, that is associated with yeast, is the observation of cohesin blocking by the yeast MCM bound to the ARS1 replication origin site, which is inserted on a piece of lambda phage DNA. No yeast genome is used in the experiment. Therefore, the referee is mistaken to suggest that this paper models yeast genome organization.

      We thank the referee for pointing out Brandao et al. PNAS 116:20489 2019, which includes the development of a tour-de-force model of condensin-based loop extrusion in the prokaryote, Bacillus subtilis, in the presence of gene barriers to loop extrusion. To acknowledge this paper, we have changed the objectionable sentence to now read (lines 571-575):

      "... prior LEF models have been overwhelmingly limited to vertebrates, which express CTCF and where CTCF is the principal boundary element. Two exceptions, in which the LEF model was applied to non-vertebrates, are Ref. [49], discussed above, and Ref. [76] (Brandao et al.), which models the Hi-C map of the prokaryote, Bacillus subtilis, on the basis of condensin loop extrusion with gene-dependent barriers."

      *Referees cross-commenting *

      I agree with the comments of Reviewer 1, which are interesting and important points that should be addressed.

      *Reviewer #2 (Significance (Required)):

      Analytically approaching extrusion by treating cohesin translocation as a conserved current is an interesting approach to modeling and analysis of extrusion-based chromatin organization. It appears to work well as a descriptive model. But I think there are major questions concerning the mechanistic value of this model, possible applications of the model, the provided interpretations of the model and experiments, and the limitations of the model under the current assumptions. I am unconvinced that this analysis specifically is sufficient to demonstrate that extrusion is the primary organizer of chromatin on these scales; moreover, the need to demonstrate this is questionable, as extrusion is widely accepted, even if not universally so. It is also unclear that the minimal approach of the CCLE necessarily offers an improved physical basis for modeling extrusion, as compared to previous efforts such as ref 47, as claimed by the authors. There are also questions about significance due to possible limitations of the model (detailed above). Applying the CCLE model to identify barriers would be interesting, but is not attempted. Overall, the work presents a reasonable analytical model and numerical method, but until the major comments above are addressed and some reasonable application or mechanistic value or interpretation is presented, the overall significance is somewhat limited.*

      __Response: __

      We agree with the referee that analytically approaching extrusion by treating cohesin translocation as a conserved current is an interesting approach to modeling and analysis of extrusion-based chromatin organization. We also agree with the referee that it works well as a descriptive model (of Hi-C maps in S. pombe and S. cerevisiae). Obviously, we disagree with the referee's other comments. For us, being able to describe the different-appearing Hi-C maps of interphase S. pombe (Fig. 1 and Supplementary Figures 1-9), meiotic S. cerevisiae (Fig. 5) and mitotic S. cerevisiae (Fig. 6), all with a common model with just a few fitting parameters that differ between these examples, is significant and novel. The reviewer prematurely ignores the fact that there are still debates about whether "diffusion-capture"-like model is the more dominant mechanism that shape chromatin spatial organization at the TAD-scale. Many works have argued that such models could describe TAD-scale chromatin organization, as cited in the revised manuscript (Refs. [11, 14, 15, 17, 20, 22-24, 55]). However, in contrast to the poor description of the Hi-C map using diffusion capture model (as demonstrated in the revised manuscript and Supplementary Fig. 15), the excellent experiment-simulation agreement achieved by CCLE provides compelling evidence that cohesin-based loop extrusion is indeed the primary organizer of TAD-scale chromatin.

      Importantly, CCLE provides a theoretical base for how loop extrusion models can be generalized and applied to organisms without known loop extrusion barriers. Our model also highlights that (and provides means to account for) distributed barriers that impede but do not strictly block LEFs could also impact chromatin configurations. This case might be of importance to organisms with CTCF motifs that infrequently coincide with TAD boundaries, for instance, in the case of Drosophila melanogaster. Moreover, CCLE promises theoretical descriptions of the Hi-C maps of other non-vertebrates in the future, extending the quantitative application of the LEF model across the tree of life. This too would be highly significant if successful.

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      Referee #2

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      Summary:

      Yuan et al. report on their development of an analytical model ("CCLE") for loop extrusion with genomic-position-dependent speed, with the idea of accounting for barriers to loop extrusion. They write down master equations for the probabilities of cohesin occupancy at each genomic site and obtain approximate steady-state solutions. Probabilities are governed by cohesin translocation, loading, and unloading. Using ChIP-seq data as an experimental measurement of these probabilities, they numerically fit the model parameters, among which are extruder density and processivity. Gillespie simulations with these parameters combined with a 3D Gaussian polymer model were integrated to generate simulated Hi-C maps and cohesin ChIP-seq tracks, which show generally good agreement with the experimental data. The authors argue that their modeling provides evidence that loop extrusion is the primary mechanism of chromatin organization on ~10-100 kb scales in S. pombe and S. cerevisiae.

      Major comments:

      1. I am unconvinced that this analysis specifically is sufficient to demonstrate that extrusion is the primary organizer of chromatin on these scales; moreover, the need to demonstrate this is questionable, as extrusion is widely accepted, even if not universally so. How is the agreement of CCLE with experiments more demonstrative of loop extrusion than previous modeling? Relatedly, similar best fit values for S. pombe and S. cerevisiae might not point to a mechanistic conclusion (same "underlying mechanism" of loop extrusion), but rather to similar properties for loop-extruding cohesins in the two species. As an alternative, could a model with variable binding probability given by ChIP-seq and an exponential loop-size distribution work equally well? The stated lack of a dependence on extrusion timescale suggests that a static looping model might succeed. If not, why not?
      2. I do not understand how the loop extrusion residence time drops out. As I understand it, Eq 9 converts ChIP-seq to lattice site probability (involving N_{LEF}, which is related to \rho, and \rho_c). Then, Eqs. 3-4 derive site velocities V_n and U_n if we choose rho, L, and \tau, with the latter being the residence time. This parameter is not specified anywhere and is claimed to be unimportant. It may be true that the choice of timescale is arbitrary in this procedure, but can the authors please clarify?
      3. The assumptions in the solution and application of the CCLE model are potentially constraining to a limited number of scenarios. In particular the authors specify that current due to binding/unbinding, A_n - D_n, is small. This assumption could be problematic near loading sites (centromeres, enhancers in higher eukaryotes, etc.) (where current might be dominated by A_n and V_n), unloading sites (D_n and V_{n-1}), or strong boundaries (D_n and V_{n-1}). The latter scenario is particularly concerning because the manuscript seems to be concerned with the presence of unidentified boundaries. This is partially mitigated by the fact that the model seems to work well in the chosen examples, but the authors should discuss the limitations due to their assumptions and/or possible methods to get around these limitations.
      4. Related to the above concern, low cohesin occupancy is interpreted as a fast extrusion region and high cohesin occupancy is interpreted as a slow region. But this might not be true near cohesin loading and unloading sites.
      5. The mechanistic insight attempted in the discussion, specifically with regard to Mis4/Scc2/NIPBL and Pds5, is problematic. First, it is not clear how the discussion of Nipbl and Pds5 is connected to the CCLE method; the justification is that CCLE shows cohesin distribution is linked to cohesin looping, which is already a questionable statement (point 1) and doesn't really explain how the model offers new insight into existing Nipbl and Pds5 data.

      Furthermore, I believe that the conclusions drawn on this point are flawed, or at least, stated with too much confidence. The authors raise the curious point that Nipbl ChIP-seq does not correlate well with cohesin ChIP-seq, and use this as evidence that Nipbl is not a part of the loop-extruding complex in S. pombe, and it is not essential in humans. Aside from the molecular evidence in human Nipbl/cohesin (acknowledged by authors), there are other reasons to doubt this conclusion. First, depletion of Nipbl (rather than binding partner Mau2 as in ref 55) in mouse cells strongly inhibits TAD formation (Schwarzer et al. Nature 551:51 2017). Second, at least two studies have raised concerns about Nibpl ChIP-seq results: 1) Hu et al. Nucleic Acids Res 43:e132 2015, which shows that uncalibrated ChIP-seq can obscure the signal of protein localization throughout the genome due to the inability to distinguish from background and 2) Rhodes et al. eLife 6:e30000, which uses FRAP to show that Nipbl binds and unbinds to cohesin rapidly in human cells, which could go undetected in ChIP-seq, especially when uncalibrated. It has not been shown that these dynamics are present in yeast, but there is no reason to rule it out yet.

      Similar types of critiques could be applied to the discussion of Pds5. There is cross-correlation between Psc3 and Pds5 in S. pombe, but the authors are unable to account for whether Pds5 binding is transient and/or necessary to loop extrusion itself or, more importantly, whether Pds5 ChIP is associated with extrusive or cohesive cohesins; cross-correlation peaks at about 0.6, but note that by the authors own estimates, cohesive cohesins are approximately half of all cohesins in S. pombe (Table 3).

      Due to the above issues, I suggest that the authors heavily revise this discussion to better reflect the current experimental understanding and the limited ability to draw such conclusions based on the current CCLE model. 6. I suggest that the authors recalculate correlations for Hi-C maps using maps that are rescaled by the P(s) curves. As currently computed, most of the correlation between maps could arise from the characteristic decay of P(s) rather than smaller scale features of the contact maps. This could reduce the surprising observed correlation between distinct genomic regions in pombe (which, problematically, is higher than the observed correlation between simulation and experiment in cervisiae). 7. Please explain why the difference between right and left currents at any particular site, (R_n-L_n) / Rn+Ln, should be small. It seems easy to imagine scenarios where this might not be true, such as directional barriers like CTCF or transcribed genes. 8. Optional, but I think would greatly improve the manuscript, but can the authors: a) analyze regions of high cohesin occupancy (assumed to be slow extrusion regions) to determine if there's anything special in these regions, such as more transcriptional activity

      b) apply this methodology to vertebrate cell data 9. A Github link is provided but the code is not currently available.

      Minor Comments:

      1. Please state the simulated LEF lifetime, since the statement in the methods that 15000 timesteps are needed for equilibration of the LEF model is otherwise not meaningful. Additionally, please note that backbone length is not necessarily a good measure of steady state, since the backbone can be compacted to its steady-state value while the loop distribution continues to evolve toward its steady state.
      2. How important is the cohesive cohesin parameter in the model, e.g., how good are fits with \rho_c = 0?
      3. A nice (but non-essential) supplemental visualization might be to show a scatter of sim cohesin occupancy vs. experiment ChIP.
      4. A similar calculation of Hi-C contacts based on simulated loop extruder positions using the Gaussian chain model was previously presented in Banigan et al. eLife 9:e53558 2020, which should be cited.
      5. It is stated that simulation agreement with experiments for cerevisiae is worse in part due to variability in the experiments, with MPR and Pearson numbers for cerevisiae replicates computed for reference. But these numbers are difficult to interpret without, for example, similar numbers for duplicate pombe experiments. Again, these numbers should be generated using Hi-C maps scaled by P(s), especially in case there are systematic errors in one replicate vs. another.
      6. In the model section, it is stated that LEF binding probabilities are uniformly distributed. Did the authors mean the probability is uniform across the genome or that the probability at each site is a uniformly distributed random number? Please clarify, and if the latter, explain why this unconventional assumption was made.
      7. Supplement p4 line 86 - what is meant by "processivity of loops extruded by isolated LEFs"? "size of loops extruded by..." or "processivity of isolated LEFs"?
      8. The use of parentheticals in the caption to Table 2 is a little confusing; adding a few extra words would help.
      9. Page 12 sentence line 315-318 is difficult to understand. The barrier parameter is apparently something from ref 47 not previously described in the manuscript.
      10. Statement on p14 line 393-4 is false: prior LEF models have not been limited to vertebrates, and the authors have cited some of them here. There are also non-vertebrate examples with extrusion barriers: genes as boundaries to condensin in bacteria (Brandao et al. PNAS 116:20489 2019) and MCM complexes as boundaries to cohesin in yeast (Dequeker et al. Nature 606:197 2022).

      Referees cross-commenting

      I agree with the comments of Reviewer 1, which are interesting and important points that should be addressed.

      Significance

      Analytically approaching extrusion by treating cohesin translocation as a conserved current is an interesting approach to modeling and analysis of extrusion-based chromatin organization. It appears to work well as a descriptive model. But I think there are major questions concerning the mechanistic value of this model, possible applications of the model, the provided interpretations of the model and experiments, and the limitations of the model under the current assumptions. I am unconvinced that this analysis specifically is sufficient to demonstrate that extrusion is the primary organizer of chromatin on these scales; moreover, the need to demonstrate this is questionable, as extrusion is widely accepted, even if not universally so. It is also unclear that the minimal approach of the CCLE necessarily offers an improved physical basis for modeling extrusion, as compared to previous efforts such as ref 47, as claimed by the authors. There are also questions about significance due to possible limitations of the model (detailed above). Applying the CCLE model to identify barriers would be interesting, but is not attempted. Overall, the work presents a reasonable analytical model and numerical method, but until the major comments above are addressed and some reasonable application or mechanistic value or interpretation is presented, the overall significance is somewhat limited.

    1. Note: This response was posted by the corresponding author to Review Commons. The content has not been altered except for formatting.

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      Reply to the reviewers

      Response to Reviewer 1


      __Glycosaminoglycan (GAG)-binding proteins regulating essential processes such as cell growth and migration are essential for cell homeostasis. It is reported that the GAG has the ability to bind to Herpin sulfate. As both GAGs and the LPS lipid A disaccharide core of gram-negative bacteria contain negatively charged disaccharide units, the researchers proposed that heparin-binding peptides might have cryptic antimicrobial peptide motifs. To prove the hypothesis, they have synthesized five candidates [HBP1-5], which showed a binding affinity towards heparin and LPS binding. By using various methods, they showed that these molecules have antimicrobial activity. The key finding in this study is the finding of the CPC domain, where C is a cationic amino acid and P is a polar amino acid. __

      Major comments

      1. __ Even though the Authors propose here that CPC' clip motif is needed for antimicrobial activity. However, various studies have demonstrated that the mere presence of cationic amino or hydrophobic amino acids does not give the activity, the location of these amino acids at the strategic position is critically needed. The major issue in this work, the authors have not presented, whether there was a single CPC motif or multiple in the 5 peptides they have synthesized. Further, they need to demonstrate how are the charged and hydrophobic amino acids distributed in the peptides. these things will clearly explain the difference in the activity as well spectrum of the peptides. The authors should make an extra figure or add information highlighting this unique characteristic for better understanding to the reader.__

      We thank the reviewer for his/her comments and suggestions. We concur that the distribution of amino acids is crucial for the antimicrobial activity of the peptides and their ability to bind heparin. We also agree with the suggestion of illustrating the location of the CPC' motifs of HBPs in the context of the parental proteins and have accordingly done so in the new Supplementary Figure 1. In all cases, only one CPC' motif was identified in the antimicrobial region, as highlighted in the figure, and the inter-residue distances measured are consistent with the CPC' motif definition. Thus, we demonstrate that a CPC' motif exists in all five HBPs, which explains how they recognize and bind heparin.

      To illustrate the distribution of charged and hydrophobic amino acids in HBPs, we have also prepared new Supplementary Figure 2, displaying electrostatic potentials in the predicted HBP structures, and showing how the distribution of charged residues creates hydrophobic and cationic patches on the surface of the peptides. Our analysis reveals cationic patches to be surrounded by hydrophobic residues, which may explain the ability of the peptides to disrupt membranes and exert antimicrobial activity.

      __ It is strange to observe that there are quite a number of reports showing that the peptides derived from the Herprin binding proteins have antimicrobial activity, but no one has reported their efficacy in the in vivo mouse model. if possible, the authors could add their observations if in vivo studies were done. or as a future line of study.__

      We thank the reviewer for his/her comment on the observation of antimicrobial activity in peptides derived from heparin-binding proteins. Indeed, a few such studies have appeared in the literature, some with moderate success [1]. It is possible that a lack of understanding on how to identify heparin-binding regions in proteins and AMPs underlies their relative paucity. In this context, we believe our results will spur further efforts, specifically by providing a rationale on how to identify CPC' motifs hence heparin-binding regions in protein sequences.

      Regarding the suggestion of assessing the in vivo efficacy of HBPs, we would agree that it would be helpful for better understanding their potential therapeutic applications. However, we feel that such experiments are beyond the scope of our manuscript, which offers ample, compelling in vitro and in silico evidence of how heparin-binding proteins can be a source of AMPs. We have done this by showing that CPC' motifs embedded in such proteins can be unveiled, accurately defined in structural terms, and experimentally shown to possess antimicrobial activity. Furthermore, we have shown that heparin binding correlates with LPS binding, allowing us to propose a mechanistic explanation for how heparin binding can be related to antimicrobial activity.

      Translating these results to animal models is possibly premature at this stage as, from a classical medicinal chemistry perspective, it would require previous structural elaboration in terms of, e.g., optimized serum half-life or serum protein binding, both of which can modulate activity in in vivo studies regardless of heparin affinity or bactericidal activity per se. Ongoing work in our laboratories is focused in these directions and will be reported in due time.

      *Referees cross-commenting**

      Minor comments

      1. __ The presence of Cryptic antimicrobial domain in various heparin-binding proteins like laminin isoforms, von Willebrand factor, vitronectin, protein C inhibitor, matrix glycoproteins thrombospondin, proline arginine-rich end leucine-rich repeat protein and fibronectin, have been reported previous. It is not clear why the authors did not refer to that work. The authors should refer to the works. (same as reviewer 3)__

      We were aware of other prior studies on heparin-binding proteins and did indeed cite some of them, though not exhaustively for conciseness' sake. However, as encouraged by reviewers 1 and 3 we have cited the following studies:

      Malmström E, Mörgelin M, Malmsten M, Johansson L, Norrby-Teglund A, Shannon O, Schmidtchen A, Meijers JC, Herwald H. Protein C inhibitor--a novel antimicrobial agent. PLoS Pathog. 2009 Dec;5(12):e1000698. doi: 10.1371/journal.ppat.1000698. Epub 2009 Dec 18. PMID: 20019810; PMCID: PMC2788422.

      Ishihara, J., Ishihara, A., Fukunaga, K. et al. Laminin heparin-binding peptides bind to several growth factors and enhance diabetic wound healing. Nat Commun 9, 2163 (2018). https://doi.org/10.1038/s41467-018-04525-w

      Chillakuri Chandramouli R, Jones Céline and Mardon Helen J(2010), Heparin binding domain in vitronectin is required for oligomerization and thus enhances integrin mediated cell adhesion and spreading, FEBS Letters, 584, doi: 10.1016/j.febslet.2010.06.023

      Papareddy P, Kasetty G, Kalle M, Bhongir RK, Mörgelin M, Schmidtchen A, Malmsten M. NLF20: an antimicrobial peptide with therapeutic potential against invasive Pseudomonas aeruginosa infection. J Antimicrob Chemother. 2016 Jan;71(1):170-80. doi: 10.1093/jac/dkv322. Epub 2015 Oct 26. PMID: 26503666.

      All the earlier studies related to the antimicrobial activity of the peptides derived from the Heparin-binding protein reported a consensus Cardin and Weintraub motifs i.e, XBBBXXBX or XBBXBX, where X represents hydrophobic or uncharged amino acids, and B represents basic amino acids. However, in this work, the researchers report about the presence of the new CPC motif. So, this is unique and a novelty in the study.

      We thank the reviewers for these observations. Indeed, our quest to unveil CPC' motifs in antimicrobial regions of heparin-binding proteins is the key point of our investigation, and what distinguishes it from previous studies on consensus motifs such as XBBBXXBX or XBBXBX. We believe our definition of CPC' motifs in simple, structure-based, and experimentally verifiable terms is not only a significant departure but also a step forward from earlier views, highlighting the importance of a structural perspective in defining heparin-binding regions. In point of fact, we show that our peptides, even without consensus Cardin-Weintraub motifs, bind heparin with high affinity. The presence of the CPC' motif is crucial for such binding, as well as for LPS binding, and the new experiments performed at editor/reviewer's request, where the CPC motif in HBP5 is abolished, with predictable impact, fully support our view, see new section "Insights into the CPC' motif of HBP-5 and its implication on the antibacterial mechanism" and new Table 3 in the revised manuscript.

      __ Even though the researchers report on the role of the CPC motif in the antimicrobial activity and binding to the heprin, the authors did not show any data or draw the conclusions related to the CPC domain when it comes to differences in the activity. this is the weakness of the manuscript. (same as reviewer 2)__

      We welcome the reviewer's observation. To address it, we made and tested three HBP-5 mutants aimed at showing how alterations in the CPC' motif might influence interaction with heparin and LPS, as well as antimicrobial properties. The first two mutants involved replacing positively charged R10 and R14 residues with glutamine, similar in size and polarity but uncharged. As shown in the new section "Insights into the CPC' motif of HBP-5 and its implication on the antibacterial mechanism" and on the new Table 3 of the revised manuscript, the changes reduced heparin binding, i.e., shorter retention times on affinity chromatography, as well as LPS binding, i.e., a decrease in EC50 in the cadaverine assay (Table 3). The modifications had a lesser impact on antimicrobial activity, most likely due to the low resolution of MIC assays.

      In a further step to assess the effect of the CPC' motif on antimicrobial activity, we deleted it in full by replacing residues H9, R10 and R14 of HBP-5 by alanine. As expected, this DCPC' peptide showed a sharp reduction in both heparin and LPS binding (Table 3) and, most importantly, a significant and asymmetric change in antimicrobial activity, with substantial impact on Gram-negatives yet practically no effect on Gram-positives, suggesting that LPS plays a key role in this selective response. Altogether, these observations align with our hypothesis that heparin-binding proteins might exploit their intrinsic affinity for heparin as an opportunity to developing antimicrobial properties by leveraging structural similarities between glycosaminoglycans and LPS.

      __ It is strange to observe that there are quite a number of reports showing that the peptides derived from the Herprin (sic) binding proteins have antimicrobial activity, but no one has reported their efficacy in the in vivo mouse model. if possible, the authors could add their observations if in vivo studies were done. or as a future line of study. (Same as reviewer 2)__

      We would kindly direct attention to #2 in the response to reviewer 1 above.

      __ There are more than 20 different AMP databases or prediction software. however, not all of them are 100 % current, their success rate varies from 30-50% only. It needs to be investigated if adding this search in the hit peptides might increase the success rate of the extra in silico-based AMPs prediction software.__

      If we understand the question correctly, the reviewer wonders whether including a CPC' motif predictor would increase the accuracy of AMP search algorithms. In our view, this strategy has two main limitations to be considered: (i) locating a CPC' motif in a peptide sequence typically requires a known 3D structure. Unfortunately, this is not always the case, and for proteins lacking reliable 3D data it can be a challenging and resource-intensive process; (ii) while CPC' motifs may predispose proteins to evolve antimicrobial properties, it is unclear if this is a required feature for all AMPs. Imposing the presence of a CPC' motif may not be applicable to all AMPs, although it might help identifying peptides with specific activity against gram-negative strains.

      In summary, while the query of including a CPC' motif search tool in AMP predictors is intriguing and worthy of exploration for its potential bearing on antimicrobial research, it is technically complicated and beyond the scope of our manuscript.

      __Reviewer #1 (Significance (Required)): __

      __All the earlier studies related to the antimicrobial activity of the peptides derived from the Heparin-binding protein reported a consensus Cardin and Weintraub motifs i.e, XBBBXXBX or XBBXBX, where X represents hydrophobic or uncharged amino acids, and B represents basic amino acids. However, in this work, the researchers report about the presence of the new CPC motif. So this is unique and a novelty in the study. __

      Even though the researchers report on the role of the CPC motif in the antimicrobial activity and binding to the heparin, the authors did not show any data or draw conclusions related to the CPC domain when it comes to differences in the activity. This is the weakness of the manuscript.

      We would direct reviewer's attention to #1 in the Referee's cross-commenting section above.


      Response to Reviewer 2


      This is a very nice paper by the Andreu and Torrent groups that report the antimicrobial and heparin-binding of several encrypted peptides. Overall, this study presents an intriguing exploration into the potential dual functionality of glycosaminoglycan (GAG)-binding proteins, specifically heparin-binding proteins (HBPs), in recognizing lipopolysaccharide (LPS) and exhibiting antimicrobial properties. The findings, particularly the identification and characterization of novel encrypted peptides, such as HBP-5, are promising and contribute to our understanding of the intricate interplay between GAG-binding proteins and immunity. The data provided and methodology are thorough and well described. In sum, this is a very nice work. Please see below my minor comments.


      Minor comments:

      1. __ Fig. 1 legend does not show antimicrobial activity. Please remove from the figure legend title.__

      As pointed out by the reviewer, the legend was incorrect and has been corrected accordingly and now reads "Figure 1. Structural and bioinformatics analysis of HBPs".

      __ Discussion section: the authors should expand this section a bit to discuss recent work in the encrypted/cryptic peptide area. There are some recent relevant papers published in the past 3 years that should be discussed.__

      We agree with the reviewer's suggestion to expand the discussion section to address recent work in the field of encrypted/cryptic peptides. We have carefully reviewed the recent literature and added several references in this topic:

      Torres MDT, Melo MCR, Flowers L, Crescenzi O, Notomista E, de la Fuente-Nunez C. Mining for encrypted peptide antibiotics in the human proteome. Nat Biomed Eng. 2022 Jan;6(1):67-75. doi: 10.1038/s41551-021-00801-1. Epub 2021 Nov 4. Erratum in: Nat Biomed Eng. 2022 Dec;6(12):1451. PMID: 34737399.

      • *

      Santos MFDS, Freitas CS, Verissimo da Costa GC, Pereira PR, Paschoalin VMF. Identification of Antibacterial Peptide Candidates Encrypted in Stress-Related and Metabolic Saccharomyces cerevisiae Proteins. Pharmaceuticals (Basel). 2022 Jan 28;15(2):163. doi: 10.3390/ph15020163. PMID: 35215278; PMCID: PMC8877035.

      • *

      Boaro A, Ageitos L, Torres MT, Blasco EB, Oztekin S, de la Fuente-Nunez C. Structure-function-guided design of synthetic peptides with anti-infective activity derived from wasp venom. Cell Rep Phys Sci. 2023 Jul 19;4(7):101459. doi: 10.1016/j.xcrp.2023.101459. PMID: 38239869; PMCID: PMC10795512.

      __ References provided are a bit outdated and do not accurately reflect the latest in the field (see comment above).__

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. Older references were updated as suggested.

      __ Gram should be capitalized throughout the text.__

      Gram has been capitalized as suggested by the reviewer.

      __ Can the authors comment on the potential translatability of HBP-5? Please also comment on the potential advantages of having peptides that 1) bind to heparin; and 2) kill bacteria.__

      We appreciate the reviewer's interest in the potential of HBP-5. Indeed, we believe it has promise for clinical applications due to its unique attributes, but further studies, including in vivo experiments and pharmacokinetic assessments, are needed to fully evaluate its potential. The advantages of peptides that bind to heparin and kill bacteria include targeted delivery or localization of therapeutic agents, enhanced efficacy, and minimized off-target effects. HBP-5's ability to perturb outer membrane LPS, a crucial aspect of its antibacterial activity, makes it a promising approach to combat Gram-negative bacterial infections, which are often challenging to treat. By disrupting the outer membrane integrity, HBP-5 may also enhance the susceptibility of Gram-negative bacteria to other antimicrobial agents or host immune responses, underscoring its translational potential for treating bacterial infections.

      __ More details on the computational tools and methods used to mine the peptides are needed.__

      We have updated the Methods section to provide more details on the computational tools used for defining AMPs. Briefly, from the library of heparin-binding proteins obtained from previous studies [2] and AMP scanning for all these proteins was performed using the AMPA tool. The predicted antibacterial segments were located in the 3D structure of their respective proteins. Then, the CPC' motifs were searched in each segment following the criteria previously reported in [3, 4]. The motif involves two cationic residues (Arg or Lys) and a polar residue (preferentially Asn, Gln, Thr, Tyr or Ser), with fairly conserved distances between the carbons and the side chain center of gravity, defining a clip-like structure where heparin would be lodged. This structural motif is highly conserved and can be found in many proteins with reported heparin binding capacity. Finally, for all these regions, docking with a heparin disaccharide was performed using AutoDock Vina to evaluate the potential binding energy.



      Response to Reviewer 3


      __Summary: This manuscript has identified and investigated antimicrobial peptides from GAG binding proteins. Authors hypothesized that due to physiochemical similarity between GAG and LPS, fragments of GAG binding proteins might exert antimicrobial activity particularly against G- bacteria. Authors have identified few such AMPs that demonstrate LPS binding and displayed antibacterial activity. They have also solved NMR structure of the potent peptide and mode of action. __

      Major comments: AMPs are promising molecules that can serve as lead for the development of therapeutics against MDR bacteria. In particular, currently therapeutic options to treat MDR Gram negative pathogens are limited. The current study is interesting and provides new non-toxic AMPs. Conclusions drawn from the works are largely valid. However, authors should address following comments:

      1. __ The design and characterization of the peptide YI12WF is not described. Previous studies had shown design of β-boomerang peptides (Bhattacharjya and coworkers) that target LPS.__

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. YI12WF (YVLWKRKRFIFI-amide) has been previously reported [4, 5] and shown to bind LPS with high affinity. YI12WF also contains a CPC' motif that, if deleted, reduces heparin binding [4]. References have been added in the text.

      __ Mutations or substitution of the key residues peptide 5 might improve the novelty of the work.__

      We thank the reviewer for this comment and agree that targeted substitutions in HBP-5 might shed light on the importance of the CPC' motif. As this point was also raised by reviewer 1, we would direct the reviewer's attention to #2 in the *Referees cross-commenting** section above.

      __ How these peptides disrupt LPS permeability is not investigated. As LPS is the major target.__

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion and have accordingly evaluated the outer membrane (OM) permeability of the peptides by the 1-N-phenyl-naphthylamine (NPN) assay, a widely used method to assess OM integrity in Gram-negative bacteria. NPN is typically unable to cross the intact outer membrane; however, when the membrane is damaged or disrupted, it can penetrate and interact with lipids and proteins inside the cell, leading to an increase in fluorescence which is directly correlated with the degree of OM permeability and serves as an indicator of membrane damage.

      Our results, illustrated in the new Figure 2D, show that all peptides are able to disrupt the OM of Gram-negative bacteria comparably to the LL-37 positive control, except for HBP2. Notably, HBP-5 exhibits the highest activity against OM, consistent with findings elsewhere in the manuscript and altogether confirming the ability of HBPs to bind to and disrupt the LPS structure.

      __ Are the D-enantiomers of the peptides active against bacteria?__

      We tested the antibacterial activity of the D-enantiomer of HBP5 (dHBP-and 5) and found it to be even higher than that of all-L HBP-5 against both Gram-negative and -positive bacteria, probably due to increased proteolytic stability as found in many AMP studies [6, 7]. As for LPS and heparin affinity, L- and D-HBP-5 behaved similarly (Table R1). As expected, the CD signatures of L- and D-HBP-5 were mirror images (Figure R1). These results suggest that the conformation of the CPC' motif is preserved in dHBP5, in tune with all previous results.

      Antibacterial Activity

      ID

      E. Coli

      P. Aeruginosa

      A. Baumannii

      S. Aureus

      E. Faecium

      L. monocytognes

      HPB-5

      0.4

      0.8

      0.2

      6.3

      25

      1.6

      dHBP-5

      0.1

      0.2

      0.2

      1.6

      0.4

      0.2



      Binding Affinity


      LPS (EC50, µM)

      Heparin (% Elution buffer)

      HPB-5

      0.9 {plus minus} 0.7

      98.0

      dHBP-5

      1.1 {plus minus} 0.8

      97.2

      Table R1. Antimicrobial activity of HBP-5 and dHBP-5









      Figure R1. CD spectra of HBP-5 (red line) and dHBP-5 (green line) in LPS (left panel) and heparin (right panel).


      __ 3D structure of peptide 5 is solved in DPC micelle which is a mimic for eukaryotic cells. Authors should attempt to determine structure in LPS as shown in several recent studies with potent AMPs thanatin, MSI etc.__

      We appreciate the suggestion and have indeed attempted to obtain NMR spectra of HBP-5 in LPS micelles. However, we've been hindered by peptide precipitation and, despite considerable efforts, have not been able to obtain satisfactory results thus far. In contrast, we have succeeded in obtaining CD spectra of HBP5 in LPS micelles, showing an a-helix conformation similar to the one in SDS micelles, hence suggesting similar conformation in both environments.

      Minor comments: There are examples of AMPs derived from human proteins. Authors should highlight such works.

      Other studies have been cited according to the reviewers' comments:

      Malmström E, Mörgelin M, Malmsten M, Johansson L, Norrby-Teglund A, Shannon O, Schmidtchen A, Meijers JC, Herwald H. Protein C inhibitor--a novel antimicrobial agent. PLoS Pathog. 2009 Dec;5(12):e1000698. doi: 10.1371/journal.ppat.1000698. Epub 2009 Dec 18. PMID: 20019810; PMCID: PMC2788422.

      Ishihara, J., Ishihara, A., Fukunaga, K. et al. Laminin heparin-binding peptides bind to several growth factors and enhance diabetic wound healing. Nat Commun 9, 2163 (2018). https://doi.org/10.1038/s41467-018-04525-w

      Chillakuri Chandramouli R, Jones Céline and Mardon Helen J(2010), Heparin binding domain in vitronectin is required for oligomerization and thus enhances integrin mediated cell adhesion and spreading, FEBS Letters, 584, doi: 10.1016/j.febslet.2010.06.023

      Papareddy P, Kasetty G, Kalle M, Bhongir RK, Mörgelin M, Schmidtchen A, Malmsten M. NLF20: an antimicrobial peptide with therapeutic potential against invasive Pseudomonas aeruginosa infection. J Antimicrob Chemother. 2016 Jan;71(1):170-80. doi: 10.1093/jac/dkv322. Epub 2015 Oct 26. PMID: 26503666.



      References

      1. Papareddy, P., et al., An antimicrobial helix A-derived peptide of heparin cofactor II blocks endotoxin responses in vivo. Biochimica et Biophysica Acta (BBA) - Biomembranes, 2014. 1838(5): p. 1225-1234.
      2. Ori, A., M.C. Wilkinson, and D.G. Fernig, A systems biology approach for the investigation of the heparin/heparan sulfate interactome. J Biol Chem, 2011. 286(22): p. 19892-904.
      3. Torrent, M., et al., The "CPC Clip Motif": A Conserved Structural Signature for Heparin-Binding Proteins.PLOS ONE, 2012. 7(8): p. e42692.
      4. Pulido, D., et al., Structural similarities in the CPC clip motif explain peptide-binding promiscuity between glycosaminoglycans and lipopolysaccharides. J R Soc Interface, 2017. 14(136).
      5. Bhunia, A., et al., Designed beta-boomerang antiendotoxic and antimicrobial peptides: structures and activities in lipopolysaccharide. J Biol Chem, 2009. 284(33): p. 21991-22004.
      6. Varponi, I., et al., Fighting Pseudomonas aeruginosa Infections: Antibacterial and Antibiofilm Activity of D-Q53 CecB, a Synthetic Analog of a Silkworm Natural Cecropin B Variant. Int J Mol Sci, 2023. 24(15).
      7. Chen, Y., et al., Comparison of Biophysical and Biologic Properties of α-Helical Enantiomeric Antimicrobial Peptides. Chemical Biology & Drug Design, 2006. 67(2): p. 162-173.
    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      eLife assessment

      This manuscript represents a cleanly designed experiment for assessing biological motion processing in children (mean age = 9) with and without ADHD. The group differences concerning accuracy in global and local motion processing abilities are solid, but the analyses suggesting dissociable relationships between global and local processing and social skills, age, and IQ are inconclusive. The results are useful in terms of understanding ADHD and the ontogenesis of different components of the processing of biological motion.

      We thank the editors and reviewers for their valuable feedback and constructive comments. We have carefully considered each point raised by the reviewers and made the necessary revisions to the manuscript. Regarding the relationships between global and local BM processing, the accumulated evidence from previous studies has converged on the dissociation of the two BM components, e.g., while global BM processing is susceptible to learning and practice, local BM processing does not show a learning trend (Chang and Troje, 2009; Grossman et al., 2004), and the brain activations in response to local and global BM cues are different (Chang et al., 2018; Duarte et al., 2022). Nevertheless, we concurred with reviewers that the evidence for such dissociation from the current study by itself is not strong enough. Therefore, we have toned down on this point and no longer claimed the dissociation (including the title). Based on the current results, we focused our discussion on the different aspects of BM processing in children with and without ADHD.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The paper presents a nice study investigating the impairments of biological motion perception in individuals with ADHD in comparison with neurotypical controls. Motivated by the idea that there is a relationship between biological motion perception and social capabilities, the authors investigated the impairments of local and global (holistic) biological motion perception, the diagnosis status, and several additional behavioral variables that are affected in ADHS (IQ, social responsiveness, and attention / impulsivity). As well local as global biological motion perception is impaired in ADHD individuals. In addition, the study demonstrates a significant correlation between local biological motion perception skills and the social responsiveness score in the ADHD group, but not in controls. A path analysis in the ADHD group suggests that general performance in biological motion perception is influenced mainly by global biological motion perception performance and attentional and perceptual reasoning skills.

      Strengths:

      It is true that there exists not much work on biological motion perception and ADHD. Therefore, the presented study contributes an interesting new result to the biological motion literature, and adds potentially also new behavioral markers for this clinical group. The design of the study is straightforward and technically sound, and the drawn conclusions are supported by the presented results.

      Thanks for this positive assessment of our work.

      Weaknesses:

      Some of the claims about the relationship between genetic factors and ADHD and the components of biological motion processing have to remain speculative at this point because genetic influences were not explicitly tested in this paper. Specifically, the hypothesis that the perception of human social interaction is critically based on a local mechanism for the detection of asymmetry in foot trajectories of walkers (this is what 'BL-local' really measures), or on the detection of live agents in cluttered scenes seems not very plausible.

      Thanks for these comments. We agree that the relationship between genetic factors and BM perception remains to be further examined, as we did not test the genetic influences in this study. We have deleted relavant discussion about genetics. Based on our results, we discuss the possible mechanisms behind the relationship between local BM processing and social interaction in the revised manuscript as follows:

      “As mentioned above, we found a significant negative correlation between the SRS total score and the accuracy of local BM processing, specifically in the ADHD group. This could be due to decreased visual input related to atypical local BM processing, which further impairs global BM processing. According to the two-process theory of biological motion processing61, local BM cues guide visual attention towards BM stimuli55,62. Consequently, the visual input of BM stimuli increases, facilitating the development of the ability to process global BM cues through learning21,63. The latter is a prerequisite for attributing intentions to others and facilitating social interactions with other individuals20,64,65. Thus, atypical local BM processing may contribute to impaired social interaction through altered visual inputs. Further empirical studies are required to confirm these hypotheses.” (lines 417 - 428)

      Based on my last comments, now the discussion has been changed in a way that tries to justify the speculative claims by citing a lot of other speculative papers, which does not really address the problem. For example, the fact that chicks walk towards biological motion stimuli is interesting. To derive that this verifies a fundamental mechanism in human biological motion processing is extremely questionable, given that birds do not even have a cortex. Taking the argumentation of the authors serious, one would have to assume that the 'Local BM' mechanism is probably located in the mesencephalon in humans, and then would have to interact in some way with social perception differences of ADHD children. To me all this seems to make very strong (over-)claims. I suggest providing a much more modest interpretation of the interesting experimental result, based on what has been really experimentally shown by the authors and closely related other data, rather than providing lots of far-reaching speculations.

      In the same direction, in my view, go claims like 'local BM is an intrinsic trait' (L. 448) , which is not only imprecise (maybe better 'mechanisms of processing of local BM cues') but also rather questionable. Likely, this' local processing of BM' is a lower level mechanisms, located probably in early and mid-levels of the visual cortex, with a possible influence of lower structures. It seems not really plausible that this is related to a classical trait variables in the sense of psychology, like personality, as seems to be suggested here. Also here I suggest a much more moderate and less speculative interpretation of the results.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out these issues. According to these comments, we have carefully revised the discussion to avoid strong (over-) claims. We have deleted the example of chicks, but substituted with more empirical studies to explain our results. We agree that the Local BM mechanism is probably located in subcortical regions in humans, which were reported by some MRI studies (Chang et al., 2018; Hirai and Senju, 2020; Loula et al., 2005). We have added some evidence that atypical local BM processing may decrease visual inputs related to social information as follows:

      “According to the two-process theory of biological motion processing61, local BM cues guide visual attention towards BM stimuli55,62. Consequently, the visual input of BM stimuli increases, facilitating the development of the ability to process global BM cues through learning21,63. The latter is a prerequisite for attributing intentions to others and facilitating social interactions with other individuals20,64,65. Thus, atypical local BM processing may contribute to impaired social interaction through altered visual inputs.” (lines 421 - 427)

      We have also deleted the clarims of 'local BM is an intrinsic trait' (originally L. 448) and related discussion as it was not conclusive based on the current study.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Tian et al. aimed to assess differences in biological motion (BM) perception between children with and without ADHD, as well as relationships to indices of social functioning and possible predictors of BM perception (including demographics, reasoning ability and inattention). In their study, children with ADHD showed poorer performance relative to typically developing children in three tasks measuring local, global, and general BM perception. The authors further observed that across the whole sample, performance in all three BM tasks was negatively correlated with scores on the social responsiveness scale (SRS), whereas within groups a significant relationship to SRS scores was only observed in the ADHD group and for the local BM task. Local and global BM perception showed a dissociation in that global BM processing was predicted by age, while local BM perception was not. Finally, general (local & global combined) BM processing was predicted by age and global BM processing, while reasoning ability mediated the effect of inattention on BM processing.

      Strengths:

      Overall, the manuscript is presented in a clear fashion and methods and materials are presented with sufficient detail so the study could be reproduced by independent researchers. The study uses an innovative, albeit not novel, paradigm to investigate two independent processes underlying BM perception. The results are novel and have the potential to have wide-reaching impact on multiple fields.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s positive feedback very much.

      Weaknesses:

      The manuscript has greatly improved in clarity and methodological considerations in response to the review. There are only a few minor points which deserve the authors' attention:

      When outlining the moviation for the current study, results from studies in ADHD and ASD are used too interchangeably. The authors use a lack of evidence for contributing (psychological/developmental) factors on BM processing in ASD to motivate the present study and refer to evidence for differences between typical and non-typical BM processing using studies in both ASD and ADHD. While there are certainly overlapping features between the two conditions/neurotypes, they are not to be considered identical and may have distinct etiologies, therefore the distinction between the two should be made clearer.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out this issue. We have removed some unnecessary citations about ASD and referred to studies about social cognition in ADHD to elaborate the motivation of this study:

      “Further exploration of a diverse range of social cognitions (e.g., biological motion perception) can provide a fresh perspective on the impaired social function observed in ADHD. Moreover, recent studies have indicated that the social cognition in ADHD may vary depending on different factors at the cognitive, pathological, or developmental levels, such as general cognitive impairment5, symptoms severity8, or age5. Nevertheless, understanding how these factors relate to social cognitive dysfunction of in ADHD is still in its infancy. Bridging this gap is crucial as it can help depict the developmental trajectory of social cognition and identify effective interventions for impaired social interaction in individuals with ADHD.” (lines 53 - 62)

      In the first/main analysis, is unclear to me why in the revised manuscript the authors changed the statistical method from ANOVA/ANCOVA to independent samples t-tests (unless the latter were only used for post-hoc comparisons, then this needs to be stated). Furthermore, although p-values look robust, for this analysis too it should be indicated whether and how multiple comparison problems were accounted for.

      Thanks for the reviewer’s comments. According to the suggestions from reviewer #3, it may be inapposite to regard gender as a covariate in ANOVA, which may violate the assumptions of ANCOVA. To ensure that gender does not influence the results, firstly, we separated boys and girls on the plots with different coloured individual data points, and there are no signs of a gender effect in their TD group. Secondly, we use t-tests to examine the difference between TD and ADHD groups. Finally, we conducted a subsampling analysis with balanced data, and the results remained consistent.

      In part 1 of the results, we aimed to compare the task accuracies between the TD and ADHD groups in three independent tasks, which assess the participants’ abilities to process three types of BM cues. We assumed that individuals with ADHD show poorer performance in three tasks compared to TD individuals. With regard to that, we consider that multiple comparisons may not be necessary.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Strengths:

      The authors present differences between ADHD and TD children in biological motion processing, and this question has not received as much attention as equivalent processing capabilities in autism. They use a task that appears well controlled. They raise some interesting mechanistic possibilities for differences in local and global motion processing, which are distinctions worth exploring. The group differences will therefore be of interest to those studying ADHD, as well as other developmental conditions, and those examining biological motion processing mechanisms in general.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s positive assessment of this work.

      Weaknesses:

      The data are not strong enough to support claims about differences between global and lobal processing wrt social communication skills and age. The mechanistic possibilities for why these abilities may dissociate in such a way are interesting, but the crucial tests of differences between correlations do not present a clear picture. Further empirical work would be needed to test the authors' claims. Specifics:

      The authors state frequently that it was the local BM task that related to social communication skills (SRS) and not the global tasks. However, the results section shows a correlation between SRS and all three tasks. The only difference is that when looking specifically within the ADHD group, the correlation is only significant for the local task. The supplementary materials demonstrate that tests of differences between correlations present an incomplete picture. Currently they have small samples for correlations, so this is unsurprising.

      Thanks for this comment. We agree with the reviewer that the relationship between local and global processing with social communication and age needs more expirical work. Based on our results, there are only possible dissociable roles of local and global BM processing. The accumulated evidence from previous studies has converged on this dissociation, e.g., whild global BM processing is susceptible to learning and practice, local BM processing does not show a learning trend (Chang and Troje, 2009; Grossman et al., 2004), and the brain activations in response to local and global BM cues are different (Chang et al., 2018; Duarte et al., 2022). We concurred with reviewers that the evidence for such dissociation from the current study by itself is not strong enough. Therefore, we have toned down on this point and no longer emphasized the dissociation. Based on the current results, we focused our discussion on the different aspects of BM processing in children with and without ADHD. Future studies with larger sample sizes are needed to confirm this disociable relationship.

      Theoretical assumptions. The authors make some statements about local vs global biological motion processing that should still be made more tentatively. They assume that local processing is specifically genetically whereas global processing is a product of experience. These data in newborn chicks are controversial and confounded - I cannot remember the specifics but I think there an upper vs lower visual field complexity difference here.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s suggestion. We agree that the relationship between genetic factors and BM perception remains to be further examined as we didn’t perform any genetic analysis in the current study. Some speculative papers have been removed, so do the statement about newborn chicks given the controversial and confounded results. We have toned down our claims and povided a moderate interpretation of the results:

      “Sensitivity to local BM cues emerges early in life54,55 and involves rapid processing in the subcortical regions16,56-58. As a basic pre-attentive feature23, local BM cues can guide visual attention spontaneously59,60. In contrary, the ability to process global BM cues is related to slow cortical BM processing and is influenced by many factors such as attention25,26 and visual experience21,51. As mentioned above, we found a significant negative correlation between the SRS total score and the accuracy of local BM processing, specifically in the ADHD group. This could be due to decreased visual input related to atypical local BM processing, which further impairs global BM processing. According to the two-process theory of biological motion processing61, local BM cues guide visual attention towards BM stimuli55,62. Consequently, the visual input of BM stimuli increases, facilitating the development of the ability to process global BM cues through learning21,63. The latter is a prerequisite for attributing intentions to others and facilitating social interactions with other individuals20,64,65. Thus, atypical local BM processing may contribute to impaired social interaction through altered visual inputs.” (lines 413 - 427)

      “Few developmental studies have been conducted on local BM processing. The ability to process local BM cues remained stable and did not exhibit a learning trend21,25. A reasonable interpretation may be that local BM processing is a low-level mechanism, probably performed by the primary visual cortex and subcortical regions such as the superior colliculus, pulvinar, and ventral lateral nucleus14,56,61.” (lines 441- 446)

      Readability. The manuscript needs very careful proofreading and correction for grammar. There are grammatical errors throughout.

      Thank the reviewer for this feedback. We have performed thorough proofreading and corrected grammatical errors throughout the manuscript.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I thank the authors for their revisions that address several of the minor points that I raised in my last review. A number of requests are still not sufficiently answered:

      L. 290 ff.: These model 'BM-local = age + gender etc ' is a pretty sloppy notation. I think what is meant that a GLM was used that uses the predictors genderetc. time appropriate beta_i values. This formulas should be corrected or one just says that a GLM was run with the predictors gender

      The same criticism applies to these other models that follow.

      This was corrected.

      However, the corrected text remains sloppy: example: 'BM-locaL = ...' What exacty is 'BM-Local' the accuracy? etc. Here a precise notation shoudl be given that clearly names which variables are used here as predictors and target variables.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s suggestion. We clarified which variables are used in our model and gived them precise notations:

      “Three linear models were built to investigate the contributing factors: (a) ACClocal = β0 + β1 * age + β2 * gender + β3 * FIQ + β4 * QbInattention, (b) ACCglobal = β0 + β1 * age + β2 * gender + β3 * FIQ + β4 * QbInattention, and (c) ACCgeneral = β0 + β1 * age + β2 * gender + β3 * FIQ + β4 * QbInattention + β5 * ACClocal + β6 * ACCglobal. ACClocal, ACCglobal and ACCgeneral refer to the response accuracies of the three tasks in the ADHD group, and QbInattention is the standardised score for sustained attention function.” (lines 337 - 343)

      All these models assume linearity of the combination of the predictors. was this assumption verified?

      We referred to the previous study of BM perception in children. They found main predictor variables, including IQ (Rutherford et al., 2012; Jones et al., 2011) and age (Annaz et al., 2010; van et al., 2016), have a linear relation with the ability of BM processing.

      This answer is insufficient and not convincing. Because a variable Y depends linearly on predictor A and B in some other study, this does not imply that is is also linear in predictor C, or does not show interactions with such predictors in the present study.

      What is needed here is the testing of models with interaction terms and verifying that such models are not better predictors. If authors do not want to do this, they need at least to clearly point out that they made the strong assumption of linearity of their model, which might be wrong and thus be a substantial limitation of their analysis.

      Thanks for the suggestion. We tried to compare each possible mode with and without relative interactions. The results showed that the change of Coefficient of Determination (R-squared, R2) between the two models was not statistically significant.

      L. 296ff.: For model (b) it looks like general BM performance is strongly driven by the predictor global BM performance in the ADHD group. Does the same observation also apply to the controls?

      The same phenomenon was not observed in TD children. We have briefly discussed this point in the Discussion section of the revised manuscript (lines 449 - 459).

      Was such a path analysis also done for the TD subjects or not? If yes, was then also predicted that the variable BM-Global largely and directedly influences the variable BM-General? (The answer refers to the general discussion section, where no such analysis is presented, as far as I understand.)

      Thank you for your comment. We also conduct a path analysis similar to that in the ADHD group. There is no statistically significant mediator effect in the TD group. Please see Figure S3 for complete statistics.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Please add public access to the data repository so data availability can be assessed.

      The data analyzed during the study is available at https://osf.io/37p5s/.

      (2) Lines 119-115: The differences observed in ADHD participants in the studies referenced here were relative to what group? The last sentence here also refers to two groups, and it is difficult to gather which specific groups are meant, also because the two references relate to both ADHD and ASD samples. Please clarify.

      The suggestion is well taken. We have clarified the expressions accordingly:

      “Specifically, compared with the typically developing (TD) group, children with ADHD showed reduced activity of motion-sensitive components (N200) while watching biological and scrambled motions, although no behavioural differences were observed. Another study found that children with ADHD performed worse in BM detection with moderate noise ratios than the TD group32.” (lines 100 - 105)

      (3) Line 116: I'm not sure what is meant by 'despite initial indications' - please briefly specify/summarise here why the investigation into BM processing in ADHD is warranted.

      Thank the reviewer for pointing out this issue. We rephrase this part and briefly specify “why the investigation into BM processing in ADHD is warranted”:

      “Despite initial findings about atypical BM perception in ADHD, previous studies on ADHD treated BM perception as a single entity, which may have led to misleading or inconsistent findings28. Hence, it is essential to deconstruct BM processing into multiple components and motion features.” (lines 108 -111)

      (4) Lines 290-293: Please complete the sentence.

      Thank the reviewer for pointing out this issue. Th sentence has been completed:

      “For Task 2 and 3, where children were asked to detect the presence or discriminate the facing direction of the target walker, TD group have higher accuracies than the ADHD group (Task 2 - TD: 0.70 ± 0.12, ADHD: 0.59 ± 0.12, t73 = 3.677, p < 0.001, Cohen's d = 0.861; Task 3 - TD: 0.79 ± 0.12, ADHD: 0.63 ± 0.17, t73 = 4.702, p < 0.001, Cohen's d = 1.100).” (lines 284 - 288)

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Conclusions concerning differences between the local and global tasks wrt SRS and age (see above). I believe the authors need to reword throughout to reflect that the tests of differences between these crucial correlations did not present a clear picture.

      We have reworded throughout the paper to reflect the inconclusiveness with regard to the relationship between local and global processing with social communication based on this study only. Future studies with larger sample sizes are needed to confirm this conclusion. The mechanism for this dissociable relationship should be validated by more psychologial tests in the future studies.

      (2) I would again tone down the discussion of genetic specification of local processing, given it is highly controversial.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out the issue. We agree the point about the genetic specification of local processing remains controversial. The interpretation of results about local BM processing has been rephrased. Please refer to our response to the point #2 mentioned.

      (3) The manuscript needs very careful proofreading and grammatical correction throughout.

      Thanks for the suggestion to check the grammar. We have carefully proofread the manuscript to correct grammatical errors

    1. Author response:

      Response to Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      We thank the reviewer for their constructive criticism of our study, their proposed solutions, and for highlighting areas of the methodology and analytical pipeline where explanations were unclear or unsatisfactory. We will take the reviewer’s feedback into account to improve the clarity and readability of the revised manuscript. We acknowledge the importance of ruling out eye movements as a potential confound. We address these concerns briefly below, but a more detailed explanation (and a full breakdown of the relevant analyses, including the corrected and uncorrected results) will be provided in the revised manuscript.

      First, the source of EEG activity recorded from the frontal electrodes is often unclear. Without an external reference, it is challenging to resolve the degree to which frontal EEG activity represents neural or muscular responses1. Thus, as a preventative measure against the potential contribution of eye movement activity, for all our EEG analyses, we only included activity from occipital, temporal, and parietal electrodes (the selected electrodes can be seen in the final inset of Figure 3).

      Second, as suggested by the reviewer, we re-ran our analyses using the activity measured from the frontal electrodes alone. If the source of the nonlinear decoding accuracy in the AV condition was muscular activity produced by eye movements, we would expect to observe better decoding accuracy from sensors closer to the source. Instead, we found that decoding accuracy from the frontal electrodes (peak d' = 0.08) was less than half that of decoding accuracy from the more posterior electrodes (peak d' = 0.18). These results suggest that the source of neural activity containing information about stimulus position was located over occipito-parietal areas, consistent with our topographical analyses (inset of Figure 4).

      Third, we compared the average eye movements between the three main sensory conditions (auditory, visual, and audiovisual). In the visual condition, there was little difference in eye movements corresponding to the five stimulus locations, likely because the visual stimuli were designed to be spatially diffuse. For the auditory and audiovisual conditions, there was more distinction between eye movements corresponding to the stimulus locations. However, these appeared to be the same between auditory and audiovisual conditions. If consistent saccades to audiovisual stimuli had been responsible for the nonlinear decoding we observed, we would expect to find a higher positive correlation between horizontal eye position and stimulus location in the audiovisual condition than in the auditory or visual conditions. Instead, we found no difference in correlation between audiovisual and auditory stimuli, indicating that eye movements were equivalent in these conditions and unlikely to explain better decoding accuracy for audiovisual stimuli.

      Finally, we note that the stricter eye movement criterion acknowledged in the Discussion section of the original manuscript resulted in significantly better audiovisual d' than the MLE prediction, but this difference did not survive cluster correction. This is an important distinction to make as, when combined with the results described above, it seems to support our original interpretation that the stricter criterion combined with our conservative measure of (mass-based) cluster correction2 led to type 2 error.

      References

      (1) Roy, R. N., Charbonnier, S., & Bonnet, S. (2014). Eye blink characterization from frontal EEG electrodes using source separation and pattern recognition algorithms. Biomedical Signal Processing and Control, 14, 256–264.

      (2) Pernet, C. R., Latinus, M., Nichols, T. E., & Rousselet, G. A. (2015). Cluster-based computational methods for mass univariate analyses of event-related brain potentials/fields: A simulation study. Journal of Neuroscience Methods, 250, 85–93.

      Response to Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      We thank the reviewer for their insight and constructive feedback. As emphasized in the review, an interesting question that arises from our results is that, if the neural data exceeds the optimal statistical decision (MLE d'), why doesn’t the behavioural data? We agree with the reviewer’s suggestion that more attention should be devoted to this question, and plan to provide a deeper discussion of the relationship between behavioural and neural super-additivity in the revised manuscript. We also note that while this discrepancy remains unexplained, our results are consistent with the literature. That is, both non-linear neural responses (single-cell recordings) and behavioural responses that match MLE are reliable phenomenon in multisensory integration1,2,3,4.

      One possible explanation for this puzzling discrepancy is that behavioural responses occur sometime after the initial neural response to sensory input. There are several subsequent neural processes between perception and a behavioural response5, all of which introduce additional noise that may obscure super-additive perceptual sensitivity. In particular, the mismatch between neural and behavioural accuracy may be the result of additional neural processes that translate sensory activity into a motor response to perform the behavioural task.

      Our measure of neural super-additivity (exceeding optimally weighted linear summation) differs from how it is traditionally assessed (exceeding summation of single neuron responses)2. However, neither method has yet fully explained how this neural activity translates to behavioural responses, and we think that more work is needed to resolve the abovementioned discrepancy. However, our method will facilitate this work by providing a reliable method of measuring neural super-additivity in humans, using non-invasive recordings.

      References

      (1) Alais, D., & Burr, D. (2004). The ventriloquist effect results from near-optimal bimodal integration. Current Biology, 14(3), 257–262.

      (2) Ernst, M. O., & Banks, M. S., (2002). Humans integrate visual and haptic information in a statistically optimal fashion. Nature, 415(6870), 429–433.

      (3) Meredith, M. A., & Stein, B. E. (1993). Interactions among converging sensory inputs in the superior colliculus. Science, 221, 389–391.

      (4) Stanford, T. R., & Stein, B. E. (2007). Superadditivity in multisensory integration: putting the computation in context. Neuroreport 18, 787–792.

      (5) Heekeren, H., Marrett, S. & Ungerleider, L. (2008). The neural systems that mediate human perceptual decision making. Nature Reviews Neuroscience, 9, 467–479.

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Abbasi et al. assess in this MEG study the directed connectivity of both cortical and subcortical regions during continuous speech production and perception. The authors observed bidirectional connectivity patterns between speech-related cortical areas as well as subcortical areas in production and perception. Interestingly, they found in speaking low-frequency connectivity from subcortical (the right cerebellum) to cortical (left superior temporal) areas, while connectivity from the cortical to subcortical areas was in the high frequencies. In listening a similar cortico-subcortical connectivity pattern was observed for the low frequencies, but the reversed connectivity in the higher frequencies was absent.

      The work by Abbasi and colleagues addresses a relevant, novel topic, namely understanding the brain dynamics between speaking and listening. This is important because traditionally production and perception of speech and language are investigated in a modality-specific manner. To have a more complete understanding of the neurobiology underlying these different speech behaviors, it is key to also understand their similarities and differences. Furthermore, to do so, the authors utilize state-of-the-art directed connectivity analyses on MEG measurements, providing a quite detailed profile of cortical and subcortical interactions for the production and perception of speech. Importantly, and perhaps most interesting in my opinion, is that the authors find evidence for frequency-specific directed connectivity, which is (partially) different between speaking and listening. This could suggest that both speech behaviors rely (to some extent) on similar cortico-cortical and cortico-subcortical networks, but different frequency-specific dynamics.

      These elements mentioned above (investigation of both production and perception, both cortico-cortical and cortico-subcortical connectivity is considered, and observing frequency-specific connectivity profiles within and between speech behaviors), make for important novel contributions to the field. Notwithstanding these strengths, I find that they are especially centered on methodology and functional anatomical description, but that precise theoretical contributions for neurobiological and cognitive models of speech are less transparent. This is in part because the study compares speech production and perception in general, but no psychophysical or psycholinguistic manipulations are considered. I also have some critical questions about the design which may pose some confounds in interpreting the data, especially with regard to comparing production and perception.

      (1) While the cortico-cortical and cortico-subcortical connectivity profiles highlighted in this study and the depth of the analyses are impressive, what these data mean for models of speech processing remains on the surface. This is in part due, I believe, to the fact that the authors have decided to explore speaking and listening in general, without targeting specific manipulations that help elucidate which aspects of speech processing are relevant for the particular connectivity profiles they have uncovered. For example, the frequency-specific directed connectivity is it driven by low-level psychophysical attributes of the speech or by more cognitive linguistic properties? Does it relate to the monitoring of speech, timing information, and updating of sensory predictions? Without manipulations trying to target one or several of these components, as some of the referenced work has done (e.g., Floegel et al., 2020; Stockert et al., 2021; Todorović et al., 2023), it is difficult to draw concrete conclusions as to which representations and/or processes of speech are reflected by the connectivity profiles. An additional disadvantage of not having manipulations within each speech behavior is that it makes the comparison between listening and speaking harder. That is, speaking and listening have marked input-output differences which likely will dominate any comparison between them. These physically driven differences (or similarities for that matter; see below) can be strongly reduced by instead exploring the same manipulations/variables between speaking and listening. If possible (if not to consider for future work), it may be interesting to score psychophysical (e.g., acoustic properties) or psycholinguistic (e.g., lexical frequency) information of the speech and see whether and how the frequency-specific connectivity profiles are affected by it.

      (2) Recent studies comparing the production and perception of language may be relevant to the current study and add some theoretical weight since their data and interpretations for the comparisons between production and perception fit quite well with the observations in the current work. These studies highlight that language processes between production and perception, specifically lexical and phonetic processing (Fairs et al., 2021), and syntactic processing (Giglio et al., 2024), may rely on the same neural representations, but are differentiated in their (temporal) dynamics upon those shared representations. This is relevant because it dispenses with the classical notion in neurobiological models of language where production and perception rely on (partially) dissociable networks (e.g., Price, 2010). Rather those data suggest shared networks where different language behaviors are dissociated in their dynamics. The speech results in this study nicely fit and extend those studies and their theoretical implications.

      (3) The authors align the frequency-selective connectivity between the right cerebellum and left temporal speech areas with recent studies demonstrating a role for the right cerebellum for the internal modelling in speech production and monitoring (e.g., Stockert et al., 2021; Todorović et al., 2023). This link is indeed interesting, but it does seem relevant to point out that at a more specific scale, it does not concern the exact same regions between those studies and the current study. That is, in the current study the frequency-specific connectivity with temporal regions concerns lobule VI in the right cerebellum, while in the referenced work it concerns Crus I/II. The distinction seems relevant since Crus I/II has been linked to the internal modelling of more cognitive behavior, while lobule VI seems more motor-related and/or contextual-related (e.g., D'Mello et al., 2020; Runnqvist et al., 2021; Runnqvist, 2023).

      (4) On the methodological side, my main concern is that for the listening condition, the authors have chosen to play back the speech produced by the participants in the production condition. Both the fixed order as well as hearing one's own speech as listening condition may produce confounds in data interpretation, especially with regard to the comparison between speech production and perception. Could order effects impact the observed connectivity profiles, and how would this impact the comparison between speaking and listening? In particular, I am thinking of repetition effects present in the listening condition as well as prediction, which will be much more elevated for the listening condition than the speaking condition. The fact that it also concerns their own voice furthermore adds to the possible predictability confound (e.g., Heinks-Maldonado et al., 2005). In addition, listening to one's speech which just before has been articulated may, potentially strategically even, enhance inner speech and "mouthing" in the participants, hereby thus engaging the production mechanism. Similarly, during production, the participants already hear their own voice (which serves as input in the subsequent listening condition). Taken together, both similarities or differences between speaking and listening connectivity may have been due to or influenced by these order effects, and the fact that the different speech behaviors are to some extent present in both conditions.

      (5) The ability of the authors to analyze the spatiotemporal dynamics during continuous speech is a potentially important feat of this study, given that one of the reasons that speech production is much less investigated compared to perception concerns motor and movement artifacts due to articulation (e.g., Strijkers et al., 2010). Two questions did spring to mind when reading the authors' articulation artifact correction procedure: If I understood correctly, the approach comes from Abbasi et al. (2021) and is based on signal space projection (SSP) as used for eye movement corrections, which the authors successfully applied to speech production. However, in that study, it concerned the repeated production of three syllables, while here it concerns continuous speech of full words embedded in discourse. The articulation and muscular variance will be much higher in the current study compared to three syllables (or compared to eye movements which produce much more stable movement potentials compared to an entire discourse). Given this, I can imagine that corrections of the signal in the speaking condition were likely substantial and one may wonder (1) how much signal relevant to speech production behavior is lost?; (2) similar corrections are not necessary for perception, so how would this marked difference in signal processing affect the comparability between the modalities?

      References:<br /> - Abbasi, O., Steingräber, N., & Gross, J. (2021). Correcting MEG artifacts caused by overt speech. Frontiers in Neuroscience, 15, 682419.<br /> - D'Mello, A. M., Gabrieli, J. D., & Nee, D. E. (2020). Evidence for hierarchical cognitive control in the human cerebellum. Current Biology, 30(10), 1881-1892.<br /> - Fairs, A., Michelas, A., Dufour, S., & Strijkers, K. (2021). The same ultra-rapid parallel brain dynamics underpin the production and perception of speech. Cerebral Cortex Communications, 2(3), tgab040.<br /> - Floegel, M., Fuchs, S., & Kell, C. A. (2020). Differential contributions of the two cerebral hemispheres to temporal and spectral speech feedback control. Nature Communications, 11(1), 2839.<br /> - Giglio, L., Ostarek, M., Sharoh, D., & Hagoort, P. (2024). Diverging neural dynamics for syntactic structure building in naturalistic speaking and listening. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 121(11), e2310766121.<br /> - Heinks‐Maldonado, T. H., Mathalon, D. H., Gray, M., & Ford, J. M. (2005). Fine‐tuning of auditory cortex during speech production. Psychophysiology, 42(2), 180-190.<br /> - Price, C. J. (2010). The anatomy of language: a review of 100 fMRI studies published in 2009. Annals of the new York Academy of Sciences, 1191(1), 62-88.<br /> - Runnqvist, E., Chanoine, V., Strijkers, K., Pattamadilok, C., Bonnard, M., Nazarian, B., ... & Alario, F. X. (2021). Cerebellar and cortical correlates of internal and external speech error monitoring. Cerebral Cortex Communications, 2(2), tgab038.<br /> - Runnqvist, E. (2023). Self-monitoring: The neurocognitive basis of error monitoring in language production. In Language production (pp. 168-190). Routledge.<br /> - Stockert, A., Schwartze, M., Poeppel, D., Anwander, A., & Kotz, S. A. (2021). Temporo-cerebellar connectivity underlies timing constraints in audition. Elife, 10, e67303.<br /> - Strijkers, K., Costa, A., & Thierry, G. (2010). Tracking lexical access in speech production: electrophysiological correlates of word frequency and cognate effects. Cerebral cortex, 20(4), 912-928.<br /> - Todorović, S., Anton, J. L., Sein, J., Nazarian, B., Chanoine, V., Rauchbauer, B., ... & Runnqvist, E. (2023). Cortico-cerebellar monitoring of speech sequence production. Neurobiology of Language, 1-21.

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      Reply to the reviewers

      Description of the planned revisions

      Reviewer #1 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      • Again, in Figure 5, were FoxP3/CD4+ cells enumerated? Author Response: Fig 5 showed that the inflammatory score, and activation of CD4 and CD8 cells, were lower in the intestine of DSS-treated mice transplanted with Jag1Ndr/Ndr lymphocytes than in those transplanted with Jag1+/+ lymphocytes. However, in Figure 5 we had not quantified the number of FoxP3/CD4+ cells (Tregs). We agree that it would be interesting to know whether the dampened intestinal inflammation (in response to a classical inflammatory disease model (DSS-treatment)) is also mediated by excess Tregs. We will therefore now quantify Foxp3+ cells on the intestinal sections of experimental animals used for acquisition of data in Fig 5.

      • *

      Description of the revisions that have already been incorporated in the transferred manuscript.

      Reviewer #1 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      Reviewer 1 comment: This is an interesting study that examines defects in the Jag1ndr/ndr mouse model of Alagille syndrome. The novel aspects of this manuscript are the comparisons, at many levels, between the mouse model and ALG patient samples, including an examination of immune profiles. The conclusions that the Jag1ndr/ndr mouse model is an accurate representation of the human ALG syndrome appear valid. However the reported differences in immune profiles, particularly in the Jag1ndr/ndr mouse model are difficult to understand. The data presented indicate a reduction in CD4+ cells in the Jag1ndr/ndr mouse at day P3 in both liver and spleen. Additionally, the authors report differences between the the Jag1ndr/ndr mouse and controls at day P30 in the relative percentages of DN, DP and SP CD4 and CD8 cells in the thymus. When examining the peripheral lymphoid system, CD4+ numbers are the same in both the Jag1ndr/ndr animals and controls however CD8+ numbers are reduced and FoxP3/CD4+ cells are increased in both the spleen and the thymus. FoxP3/CD4+ T cells are usually assumed to be regulatory T cells that dampen the inflammatory responses of T cells. Therefore, the increase in this population in an animal model of what is assumed to be an inflammatory disease is confusing and confounding. The authors do not present a clear analysis of how they feel an increase of Tregs would lead to this disease. One possibility is that this population is not functioning as conventional Tregs and rather are promoting inflammation but this conclusion would require a functional analysis of this population of cells, at the very least in an in vitro analysis of T cell suppression. From an immunologist's point of view, their data are antithetical to what one would expect to find in an inflammatory disease. Perhaps this reviewer is missing an important point but if I am missing it, then other who read this manusgcript also may be confused.

      Author Response: *We thank the reviewer for carefully assessing our work, and for noting which aspects of the immune analyses should be more thoroughly explained. We apologize for any confusion, which a clearer introduction will help to avoid. *

      *Alagille syndrome is not thought of as an inflammatory disorder, it is a congenital disorder affecting bile duct development (Kohut et al 2021, Semin Liver Dis). During normal bile duct development, JAG1+ portal fibroblasts signal to NOTCH2+ hepatoblasts to instruct bile duct development. In the context of low JAG1 signaling, hepatoblasts either fail to adopt a cholangiocyte fate, or fail to undergo bile duct morphogenesis, resulting in bile duct paucity and cholestasis. This cholestasis should activate inflammatory processes leading to fibrosis, which is the subject of this study. *

      • *

      We agree with the reviewer that Tregs would be expected to suppress inflammation, and our data are consistent with Treg suppression of inflammation. We show, for the first time, that Tregs are enriched in Jag1Ndr/Ndr mice (Fig 4) and present evidence that they suppress inflammation (Fig 5) and fibrosis (Fig 6), which could explain the atypical fibrosis seen in patients with ALGS.

      • *

      *To clarify that ALGS is a genetic liver disease affecting bile duct formation, we: *

      1. Modified and extended the following text in the Introduction (Page 2, lines 14-17): “ALGS is mainly caused by mutations in the Notch ligand JAGGED1 (JAG1, 94%) (Mašek & Andersson, 2017; Oda et al, 1997), affecting bile duct development and morphogenesis, resulting in bile duct paucity and cholestasis. Immune dysregulation has also been described (Tilib Shamoun et al, 2015), but how this might interact with liver disease in ALGS to affect fibrosis is not known.
      2. *Introduce the disease, the animal model, and the scientific question in a schematic in new Fig 1A. *
      3. * Reviewer 1 comment: Minor points that should be addressed include: • The source cells used in the transfer experiments reported in Figure 5 is unclear. Are they using total spleen cells with T, B and myeloid cells or are they using purified T cells. And if it is the latter, have they assessed the ratio of CD4+ versus FoxP3/CD4+ cells in the transferred cells?

      Author Response: *Total spleen cells including all lymphocytes were transplanted, as described in Materials and Methods. The constituent T-cell populations are characterized and shown in Fig 4F. To clarify this, we: *

      1. *added the text “Adoptive transfer of lymphocytes” to the schematic in Fig 5A, FigS5A, and Fig 6A, and *
      2. modified the opening paragraph related to results presented in Fig.5 and FigS5 in the following way (page 8, line 209): “To investigate Jag1Ndr/Ndr T cell function, we performed adoptive transfer of the splenic lymphocytes into Rag1-/- mice, which lack mature B- and T cell populations, but provide a host environment with normal Jag1 (Mombaerts et al, 1992).
      3. *

      *To acknowledge that B-cells and innate lymphoid cells might contribute to the observed results, we include a following sentence in the Discussion: *

      (page 12, lines 369-371) “Finally, our experimental setup does not exclude an additional contribution of other lymphocytes (B-cells or innate lymphoid cells) to the BDL-induced fibrosis, and selective testing of the individual subpopulations would be an intriguing follow up to this study.”

      Reviewer 1 comment: In the DSS experiments in Figure 5, there does not appear to be a no DSS control. What does the architecture look like without DSS?

      Author Response: The intestinal architecture and phenotype of mice transplanted with Jag1+/+ or Jag1Ndr/Ndr lymphocytes, not treated with DSS, are presented in Supplementary Figure 5. In the absence of DSS, Jag1+/+- or Jag1Ndr/Ndr -transplanted mice exhibit no overt differences in survival or weight gain/loss. The intestinal inflammatory score was not different in the two conditions and was *2.29 +/-0.44 and 2.03 +/-0.92 for Jag1+/+- or Jag1Ndr/Ndr -transplanted mice, respectively. *

      To compare the results with and without DSS, we added the following text to the results section, when describing the DSS results (Page 9, lines 223-226):

      As expected, histological scoring of intestinal and colonic inflammation revealed elevated inflammation in Jag1+/+→Rag1-/- mice treated with DSS (Fig. 5C,D) compared to Jag1+/+→Rag1-/- mice not treated with DSS (Fig. S5). However, there was significantly less inflammation in Jag1Ndr/Ndr→Rag1-/- mice than in Jag1+/+→Rag1-/- mice (Fig. 5C,D)."

      Reviewer 1 comment: The authors noted that splenomegaly was observed in the Jag1ndr/ndr mouse model. Again this is antithetical to what one would expect when one sees an increase in FoxP3/CD4+ T regs.

      Author Response: *We thank the reviewer for pointing at a possible discrepancy, related to Fig1 in which we report the presence of splenomegaly. Although there can be multiple causes of splenomegaly, it is one of the hallmarks of portal hypertension (as also corroborated by Reviewer 2), tightly connected with liver fibrosis, present in patients with ALGS and we report it as such in the manuscript. To clarify this, we added the following text sections: *

      1. Results (page 2, lines 37,38) “Liver fibrosis compresses blood vessels and reduces their blood flow, leading to portal hypertension, a serious consequence of liver disease which can manifest as splenomegaly.
      2. Discussion (page 13, line 394-401): “Splenomegaly has been described as a consequence of portal hypertension in ALGS (Kamath et al, 2020), but could also be attributed to immune-related pathology. Jag1Ndr/Ndr mice exhibit splenomegaly as early as P10, and is exacerbated at P30 ( 1E,F). Patients with other liver diseases display portal hypertension and cirrhosis, with both splenomegaly and hypersplenism associated with a high CD4+/CD8+ ratio, but a low Treg+/CD4+ ratio (Nomura et al, 2014). However, Jag1Ndr/Ndr mice present with splenomegaly but not hypersplenism. An overactive spleen (hypersplenism) would remove red blood cells which are instead enriched in Jag1Ndr/Ndr mice, and Tregs were enriched in Jag1Ndr/Ndr mice, not depleted as seen in cirrhosis/hypersplenism. These data are thus consistent with portal hypertension-induced splenomegaly rather than hypersplenism.*” *

      Reviewer #1 (Significance (Required)):

      Reviewer 1 comment: The strengths of this paper are the careful comparisons between the mouse model and the human ALG syndrome. These comparisons are valuable and worth publication.

      Author Response: We thank the reviewer for these comments.

      Reviewer 1 comment: Weaknesses are stated above. Needs a clearer explanation for their immune analysis.

      Author Response: *We thank the reviewers for highlighting points requiring clarification and hope the proposed text changes and additional data presented in response to the comments of all three reviewers lead to a significant clarification of the immunological aspect of our study. *

      Reviewer #2 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      Reviewer 2 comment:

      Summary: Masek and colleagues use multi-pronged studies on the Jag1[Ndr/Ndr] mouse model of Alagille syndrome (ALGS) combined with transcriptomic analysis on livers from patients with ALGS to elucidate the potential mechanisms regulating liver fibrosis in this disease. The authors first show that Jag1[Ndr/Ndr] animals develop pericellular and perisinusoidal fibrosis and exhibit evidence for portal hypertension, similar to patients with ALGS. Single-cell RNA-sequencing indicated more hepatoblasts and less hepatocytes, relatively speaking, in Jag1[Ndr/Ndr] P3 livers, which suggested hampering of hepatoblast differentiation to hepatocytes. Deconvolution of previously generated bulk RNA-seq data from Jag1[Ndr/Ndr] P10 livers and GESA on RNAseq data from livers of these mice and patients with ALGS confirmed the P3 scRNA-seq observations and indicated mild pro-inflammatory activation of immature hepatocytes in ALGS livers. GESA also suggested an inability of Jag1[Ndr/Ndr] livers to attract T cells upon cholestatic injury. Indeed, 25-color flow cytometry on liver and spleen from mutant and control mice indicated a defect in T cell response to cholestasis in this model. The authors then examined the effects of the Ndr mutation on T-cell development and function. They found that the Ndr/Ndr thymi were significantly smaller than control thymi. Moreover, Ndr/Ndr thymi showed an increase in CD4+ T-cells and Tregs at the expense of double-positive T-cells. The authors then performed lymphocyte transplantation studies and concluded that Ndr/Ndr T-cells fail to mount an adequate response to inflammation in a DSS model of ulcerative colitis. The authors tested the contribution of Ndr/Ndr immune cells to liver fibrosis in a model of experimentally induced cholestasis (bile duct ligation; BDL). Ndr/Ndr T-cells did not show any defects in migrating into the liver upon BDL. However, the periportal fibrosis observed in BDL model was reduced in animals receiving Ndr/Ndr immune cells compared to those receiving Jag1+/+ immune cells. This was accompanied by significantly less aSMA staining in these livers. Finally, reanalysis of bulk RNAseq data from liver samples from ALGS and other liver diseases suggested that the presence of FOXP3+ T-reg cells in the liver is associated with higher liver fibrosis in non-ALGS liver diseases but lower liver fibrosis in ALGS livers. The authors have used an impressive combination of single-cell RNA-sequencing, reanalysis of previous bulk RNA-sequencing data from their group and others, 25-color FACS analysis, and adoptive immune transfer experiments in this manuscript, and systematically provide quantification and statistical analysis for their data. Overall, this is an interesting and important study. Prior studies are referenced appropriately. The text and figures are clear and accurate. I don't think any additional experiments are essential. However, the issues listed under Major comments should be discussed and clarified in the manuscript, especially the first item.

      Author Response: *We sincerely thank the reviewer for the comprehensive and insightful assessment of our manuscript. We are particularly gratified to note your acknowledgment of the thoroughness of our experimental approach and the clarity of our presentation. We are pleased that no further experiments would be required, and will address the points raised under Major comments which enhance our study's quality and accessibility. *

      Reviewer 2 comment:

      Major comments:

      • Only a small fraction of the cells in scRNA-seq experiments have been assigned to hepatocytes/hepatoblast clusters, with the majority of these cells allocated to Hepato-Ery cluster. This suggests that many hepatocytes and potentially hepatoblasts have been lost during sample preparation. The authors should discuss this issue and its potential implications on the interpretation of the cell ratios and gene expression conclusions of scRNA-seq data. Author Response: We agree with the reviewer regarding this aspect of our study. We mentioned this limitation in the supplementary methods section: ”Liver parenchymal cells constituted ~6.5% of cells at E16.5, and ~7.5% of cells at P3 and included mesenchymal cells, endothelial cells, hepatoblasts and hepatocytes (Fig. S1D), this parenchymal proportion is lower than in vivo, but consistent with ex vivo liver digest (Guilliams et al, 2022).” We recognize it may be too inaccessible there, and we thus added the following text to the Discussion section of the manuscript: (Pages 11-12, lines 330-337) “A limitation of this study is the underrepresentation of the hepatoblast/cyte parenchymal cells in the scRNA-seq dataset (Fig. 2A-D), which constituted ~6.5% of analyzed cells at E16.5, and ~7.5% of cells at P3 (Fig. S1D). This parenchymal proportion is lower than in vivo, but is consistent with scRNA seq datasets obtained with ex vivo liver digest (Guilliams et al, 2022). One risk is that cell stress as a result of dissociation could result in further loss of injured Jag1Ndr/Ndr hepatocytes, impacting the interpretation of cell type abundance. Nuclear scRNAseq can overcome cell type-dependent dissociation sensitivity bias (Guilliams et al, 2022), and could provide further insights into Jag1Ndr/Ndr livers at the single cell level. Nonetheless, both bulk RNA seq deconvolution and histological analyses confirmed that patients and Jag1Ndr/Ndr mice exhibit hepatoblast enrichment and less differentiated hepatocytes.

      Reviewer 2 comment: The Jag1[Ndr/Ndr] strain is an excellent model for various aspects of ALGS phenotypes. However, when it comes to linking the effects of this mutation to the function of a specific cell type, it is worth considering that Jag1[Ndr/Ndr] might not recapitulate the effects of loss of one copy of JAG1 observed in most patients with ALGS. This is especially important given the sensitivity of various cellular and organ-level processes to the degree of Notch pathway activation. In the context of the present manuscript, it is possible that what the authors have observed in Jag1[Ndr/Ndr] lymphocytes does not mirror how a JAG1-heterozygous human lymphocyte behaves. This is not a major concern, but it is worth considering.

      Author Response: We agree and thus added the following discussion paragraph (page 11, lines 315-321) “In patients with ALGS, who have a single mutation in either JAG1 or NOTCH2, the remnant healthy allele(s) could be expected to mediate signaling. However, some JAG1 mutations exhibit dominant negative effects (Ponio et al, 2007; Xiao et al, 2013; Guan et al, 2023), which could entail further repression of JAG1/NOTCH2 signaling. In this context, it is important to note that the Jag1Ndr/Ndr mice are homozygous for the missense mutation, but retain some JAG1 activity, and it is not clear to which degree this mimics JAG1 heterozygosity in humans. It would be of interest to test whether Jag1 potency affects hepatoblast differentiation or injury-induced reversion of hepatocytes in patients as a function of their genotype.

      Reviewer 2 comment: •The basis for the opposite type of correlation between COL1A1 expression and POXP3 level in ALGS versus non-ALGS liver disease is not clear.

      Author Response: We thank the reviewer for pointing out the unclear interpretation of the patient data. In patients with ALGS, the extent of fibrosis is likely to be highly multifactorial, involving (as we show) hepatocyte immaturity, dampened inflammation, and immune system dysregulation (possibly involving more than T-cells). Since human patients ARE so heterogeneous, teasing apart the relative contribution of each is currently outside the scope of our study, but will be an important area of future research. Nonetheless we thought it was important and interesting to show these patterns in supplementary Fig 6, now extended with further data, and analyses, and described in the following manner:

      • *

      Results section: (page 10, lines 267-275) “Liver damage in non-ALGS liver disease (using liver injury marker LGALS3BP) (Yang et al, 2021), was positively correlated with recruitment of lymphocytes (including CD8A+,and FOXP3+ populations of T cells), as well as the extent of fibrosis (COL1A1 abundance) (Fig. S6G). However, in ALGS, the extent of liver damage, lymphocyte recruitment and fibrosis were unlinked (Fig. S6G). These data are in line with the observation that liver stiffness (a proxy for fibrosis) in ALGS is independent of biomarkers of liver disease (Leung et al, 2023). While Treg infiltration in ALGS was independent of liver damage, it exhibited a tendency towards a negative correlation with fibrosis (Fig. S6G), corroborating that elevated levels of Tregs may limit fibrosis in ALGS. Altogether, these data suggest that the liver and lymphocytes may be differentially affected in different patients with ALGS, a disorder that is well known for its heterogenous presentation.

      Minor comments:

      • Page 2, last paragraph of Introduction, Page 12 last sentence, and Supplementary Methods: Please use "adoptive immune transfer" instead of "adaptive immune transfer". • Pages 3 and 4: Reference is made to Figures 3E-O, which appears to be Figure 2E-O. • Figure 3 legend: "Analysis in (E) is one-way ANOVA with Dunnett's multiple comparison test". Panel E compares two means, so ANOVA is not the appropriate statistical analysis for these data. Is this sentence related to panel D? • Page 9: Please correct misspelling: "response to intestinal insult (Fig. 5). W therefore". • The Science Translation Medicine references lack page number. Author Response: *We thank the reviewer deeply for taking the time to meticulously note and convey these errors, helping us to correct these. The suggested corrections have been implemented. Science Transl Med is an online journal and does not have page numbers – we have added an issue number to facilitate retrieval of these references. *

      • *

      Additionally, we noticed that the image of a consecutive liver section with CYP1A2 staining from Jag1Ndr/Ndr liver in Fig 2 L was accidentally flipped along the horizontal axis, which we have now corrected. We also changed the scRNAseq cell cluster naming from Hepatoblasts/cytes, Hepato_Ery, and Kupffer cells, Kuffer cells_Ery to Hepatoblasts/cytes I, and II, and Kupffer cells I and II, respectively, to match the Neutrophil progenitors I and II naming convention. Names were subsequently also changed in Fig S1 and methods.

      **Referees cross-commenting**

      To my knowledge, ALGS is not considered to be an inflammatory disorder. Furthermore, the splenomagaly observed in the mouse model could be due to portal hypertension rather than a primary immune disturbance. Having said that, I agree with the other reviewers that the manuscript will benefit from further discussion and clarification on the immune-related observations.

      Author Response: We thank Reviewer 2 for indicating to Reviewer 1 that ALGS is not considered an inflammatory disorder, which we agree with. It was not our intention to convey this idea. To avoid confusion, we now:

      1. *Added a schematic in Fig 1A. *
      2. Modified and extended the following text in the Introduction: (Page 2, lines 14-17): “ALGS is mainly caused by mutations in the Notch ligand JAGGED1 (JAG1, 94%) (Mašek & Andersson, 2017; Oda et al, 1997), affecting bile duct development and morphogenesis, resulting in bile duct paucity and cholestasis. Immune dysregulation has also been described (Tilib Shamoun et al, 2015), but how this might interact with liver disease in ALGS to affect fibrosis is not known. *Furthermore, we have addressed or will address all comments from reviewer 1 to clarify the immune-related observations. *

      Reviewer #2 (Significance (Required)):

      Despite severe cholestasis, ALGS patients do not show as much fibrosis as other cholestatic diseases, including biliary atresia (BA). A previous study had suggested that this phenomenon could be due to the difference in the nature of reactive hepatobiliary cells in ALGS compared to BA (Fabris et al, 2007). Moreover, a number of studies have suggested a role for Notch pathway activation in several cell types in the liver in the development of liver fibrosis (for example, Sawitza et al, Hepatology, 2009; Chen et al, Plos One, 2012; Duan et al, Hepatology, 2018; Yu et al, Science Translational Medicine, 2021). However, although a role for Notch signaling in T-cells is well established, it was not known whether impaired T-cell development/function contributes to reduced fibrosis in ALGS liver disease. Accordingly, the current manuscript provides novel insight into the mechanism of fibrosis in this disease. Moreover, the observation that Jag1-mutant T-cells do not confer as much protection as control T-cells to immunodeficient mice subjected to DSS-induced ulcerative colitis provides strong evidence for impaired T-cell immunity in this ALGS model and might help explain other aspects of ALGS phenotypes.

      The manuscript will be of interest to broad audience (Notch signaling, cholestatic liver disease, mechanisms of liver fibrosis, T-cell development).

      I have expertise in Notch signaling and in using animal models of human developmental disorders.

      __Author Response: __We thank the reviewer for the balanced assessment of our manuscript in light of the current knowledge, and for highlighting its importance in the context of not only Notch and ALGS, but also other cholestatic and fibrotic liver diseases.

      Reviewer #3 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      The article entitled "Jag1 Insufficiency Disrupts Neonatal T Cell Differentiation and Impairs Hepatocyte Maturation, Leading to Altered Liver Fibrosis" by Mašek et al described the role of Notch ligand JAGGED1 (JAG1) in the T-cell differentiation contributing to liver fibrosis and immune system development in ALGS. This article is well written and has important preliminary findings that could establish Jag1 and its downstream signaling pathways as potential therapeutic targets to attenuate liver fibrosis.

      Author Response: We thank the reviewer for recognizing our work and pointing out the therapeutical implications of our findings.

      Reviewer 3 comment 1: Minor comments: In page 4, they mentioned that "the hepatoblast marker alpha fetoprotein (AFP) was 3.1-fold enriched (Fig. 3J,K), while the mature hepatocyte marker CYP1A2 protein was 1.7-fold less expressed (Fig. 3L-M)", the figure numbers should be changed to 2J, K, L-M etc.

      Author Response:* We thank the reviewer for identifying these errors. The suggested corrections have been implemented. *

      Reviewer 3 comment 2: In liver fibrosis the Th17 cells play crucial roles. Please show the level of IL17A mRNA level in the liver in the Jag1Ndr/Ndr mice compared to the Jag1+/+ mice.

      Author Response: We thank the reviewer for the insightful comments. We indeed investigated the Th17 vs Treg immune response, however we detect neither Th17-expressed Il17, Il17a, Il17f, nor Il21 and Il22 mRNA in the bulk RNA data, suggesting their expression is either masked or they are not present in significant numbers within the liver tissue at P10, preventing us from drawing any conclusions about this cell population.

      Reviewer ____3 comment 3: Also, please show the expression level of pro-inflammatory molecules, for example, TNFα, IL1β, MCP1 etc and the level of MMPs (especially MMP2, MMP8, MMP9) in the livers of the mice models used.

      Author Response: *The expression of Il10, Il1b, Mcp1(Ccl2), was presented in the manuscript Fig. 2O, and we attach in the response to reviewers *

      *a full list together with the expression levels of Mmp2/8/9, Tnfa, Ifng, Il17 receptor family and Tgfb1-3. Out of these, Mmp8 (0.9 Log2fold change = 1.9-fold), Ccl2 (2.2 Log2fold change = 4.7-fold), and Tl17rb (1.1 Log2fold change = 2.1-fold) were significantly upregulated, but do not indicate any specific leukocyte population’s response. This is in line with data in Fig S2E, demonstrating a dominance of myeloid over adaptive immune response in the GSEA of the immune KEGGs. *

      *Since lymphocytes are underrepresented in the bulk transcriptomics, and individual genes might report activity of many different cell types, we chose to focus on the list of genes shown to be markers of activated hepatocytes, to avoid over interpretation of the RNA sequencing data. Instead, the immune analyses were based on flow cytometry data, which we expect should accurately report cell type abundance across organ systems. *

      Reviewer 3 comment____ 4. Authors have shown significant alterations in the Treg population in their Jag1Ndr/Ndr mice of ALGS. Please also show the expression of IL10 and TGFβ in the liver and whether they are correlated with the level of Treg populations.

      Author response:* IL10 and Tgfb mRNA levels in liver are shown in the heatmap in the response to reviewers, and were not significantly different between genotypes at P10. They were also not correlated with Foxp3 levels, as shown in the correlation matrices below (Pearson’s R values in top row, significance values in bottom row). *

      Reviewer 3 comment 5. It would be interesting to know whether the IFNγ mRNA expression in the livers were altered in the Jag1Ndr/Ndr mice with altered populations of CD8 T cells.

      Author Response: There was no significant difference in IFNγ mRNA expression levels between Jag1+/+ and Jag1Ndr/Ndr *livers at P10 (please see the heatmap in response to comment no.3, above). *

      Reviewer #3 (Significance (Required)): Strength: This article is well written and has important preliminary findings that could establish Jag1 and its downstream signaling pathways as potential therapeutic targets to attenuate liver fibrosis.

      Author Response: Thank you for these comments and pointing out the wider implications of our findings.


      Reviewer 3____ Limitations: This study lacked the detailed molecular pathways which could explain how the Jag1 altered the T-cell recruitment, development and hepatocyte maturation in the development of liver fibrosis in the ALGS model.

      Author Response: We agree that this study does not focus on molecular pathways. The intention of this study was to identify which cell populations contribute to atypical neonatal fibrosis in ALGS. Because we expected this process to be multifactorial, Jag1Ndr/Ndr mice, carrying a systemic mutation, present both advantages (Jag1 abrogation in all cells --> ALGS-like organ interactions) and limitations (inability to identify contributions of individual cell types). However, by identifying maturing hepatocytes and Tregs as dysregulated, and demonstrating that Jag1Ndr/Ndr lymphocytes behave abnormally and suppress inflammation and fibrosis in Rag1-/- mice (with normal Jag1 expression), we establish a biological framework that can now be further investigated with conditional genetic tools and in vitro systems, to elucidate specific molecular pathways, that were beyond the scope of the current study.

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      Reply to the reviewers

      1. Description of the planned revisions

      Insert here a point-by-point reply that explains what revisions, additional experimentations and analyses are planned to address the points raised by the referees.


      Reviewer 1:

      Major comments (numbers correspond to the numbering made by the reviewer):

      It is unclear what the TEM in Fig8 is trying to clarify. Since SMCs and elastic fibers are supposed to be bound, it would be better to show the binding site. In addition, the p-MLC in Fig8D-F is a qualitative evaluation, so the difference is not clear, and it is necessary to verify whether there is a difference in Myh11CreERT2;Loxfl/fl mice between aneurysmal (pathogenic) and non-aneurysmal lesions. Overall, this is an associated study that this only speculation since the causal relationship between aneurysm development and Lox functions, which authors found is unclear.

      A: While no one has thus far carried out an in vivo deletion of LOX specifically in the smooth muscle cells to demonstrate that in a like manner to the BAPN treatment following its deletion aneurysms occur, the focus of this manuscript is to highlight the as yet undescribed intracellular cytoskeletal phenotypes in the LOX mutant smooth muscle cells and not the related ECM abnormalities. The TEM images in Figure 8 aim to show with high resolution the abnormal cytoskeleton and mitochondria in mice with a specific deletion of Lox in their SMC. Notably, these mice were not induced with AngII and therefore have not developed hypertension. Accordingly, they do not have any aneurysms yet they do display disrupted cytoskeleton and mitochondria within their aortic smooth muscle cells. As suggested by the reviewer, we will monitor SMC interaction with the elastic fibers using TEM. These findings will be presented.

      With respect to phosphorylated Myosin Light Chain (p-MLC) - the analysis was carried out on 4 mice, and 6 sections from each mouse from non-aneurysmal regions. In this analysis we plotted the distribution of p-MLC expression which was calculated by quantifying 'intensity x area'. Statistical analysis of the distribution of the histograms (Kolmogorov Smirnov test) depicting p-MLC expression demonstrates they are significantly different (p=6.6E-16). In the mutant aortas, distribution is more dispersed and less organized. We have now elaborated on these findings within the text.

      • *

      In the discussion (lines 332-334), the Authors described that "Since TGFb signaling is implicated in aneurysm formation..." but the effect of TGFb signal in these Lox-deficient mice has not been examined at all. The effects of pSmad2/3 staining, Western, etc on TGFb activation should be examined and discussed.

      A: We agree with the reviewer that we have not monitored TGFβ signaling throughout this manuscript however we and others have previously demonstrated that tight interactions take place between LOX and this signal transduction pathway in multiple processes, in health and disease including within the vasculature (e.g., Taylor MA et al., 2011 Lysyl oxidase contributes to mechanotransduction-mediated regulation of transforming growth factor-beta signaling in breast cancer cells. PMID: 21532881; Atsawasuwan P et al., 2008. Lysyl oxidase binds transforming growth factor-beta and regulates its signaling via amine oxidase activity. PMID: 18835815; Kutchuk L et al., 2015. Muscle composition is regulated by a lox-TGFβ feedback loop. PMID: 25715398; Xu XH et al., 2019. Downregulation of lysyl oxidase and lysyl oxidase-like protein 2 suppressed the migration and invasion of trophoblasts by activating the TGF-β/collagen pathway in preeclampsia. PMID: 30804321; Grunwald H et al., 2021. Lysyl oxidase interactions with transforming growth factor-β during angiogenesis are mediated by endothelin 1. PMID: 34370353). Notably, the effects of LOX on TGFβ signaling has not been the focus of this research and therefore we relate to it only in the Discussion, however as requested by the reviewer, we are now gearing up towards testing activation of the pathway is affected in the LOX mutant SMCs. Should we be unsuccessful we will tone down this statement.

      • *

      • *

      Minor comments (numbers correspond to the numbering made by the reviewer):


      1. What is the baseline group in Fig1A? and should be required a minimum 3 of animals in each group. A: The baseline for measuring blood pressure was Tamoxifen-treated Loxfl/fl. This was mentioned in the legend but not in the figure. We apologize for this. However since we only had 2 mice of this genotype, we *have replaced them with Myh11CreERT2; Loxfl/fl and have set additional mice that will be added that are Loxfl/fl. Essentially, all 'baseline' mice will have received tamoxifen yet have not been induced with AngII. A minimum of 4 animals per group will be in this figure. *

      Reviewer 2:

      Major comments (numbers correspond to the order written by the reviewer):

      1. All three key conclusions are supported by data throughout the manuscript. However, the evidence is often based on data originating from western-blotting or immunofluorescent experiments and lack depth and rigidity. For example, figure 4 shows a change of cytoskeletal organization upon LOX KO in HAOSMCs but the authors lack to quantify or further analyse these exact differences in actin/tubulin organization. A: We thank the reviewer for stating that our conclusions are supported by data throughout the manuscript. As requested, we will analyze the organization of the cytoskeleton using image analyses software that enable dissecting linearity, number, length and angle of the cytoskeletal elements. We have already acquired the images and these analyses will be added to the manuscript upon their completion.

      2. *

      Description of the revisions that have already been incorporated in the transferred manuscript

      Please insert a point-by-point reply describing the revisions that were already carried out and included in the transferred manuscript. If no revisions have been carried out yet, please leave this section empty.

      • *

      __Reviewer 1: __

      Major comments (numbers correspond to the numbering by the reviewer):

      1. The number of mice used and a number of experiments ("n" number) are not described in each figure or its legends in an overall experiment. Also, there is no information on the statistical analysis, which makes it impossible to judge the validity of the results. A: The minimal number of mice used per analysis in each experiment was 4 apart from the blood pressure measurements for which we have now increased the number (see reply to Minor comment 1 by this Reviewer). These numbers have either been added to the legends or throughout the text. We further added the numbers of cells quantified in the different experiments as well as the p value stemming from the statistical assays (T, Kolmogorov-Smirnov or ANOVA where appropriate).

      The Phenotype of Lox-deficient mice is unclear; the picture in Fig1C is not clear and a high-magnified view should be provided. Also, which part (aortic arch or abdominal aorta?) is histologically analyzed? It should be described. In addition to the morphological analysis, it cannot be called "aneurysm" unless the internal diameter is enlarged more than 1.5 times compared to the control aorta. The histological images seem to show only dissection, which is unclear since statistical analysis is not feasible with only 2-3 animals.

      A: The images shown in Figure 1C are now larger and of a better resolution so that the various deformities could be easily observed. With respect to the histological analyses - they were carried out on both the thoracic and abdominal aortic sections as reflected by the quantifications in Figure 1E-H. Specifically, the representative histological stainings shown in Figure 1D are of the abdominal regions and this is now mentioned in both the legend and figure. We thank the reviewer for correcting the mistake in our annotation and we have now replaced the images adding higher magnification of aneurysmal and non-pathological regions to demonstrate the relative normal ECM (elastic fibers and collagen) in the non-pathological regions of mutant aortas even though they were derived from hypertensive mice.

      • *

      Immunostaining in Figs. 4-6 should add nuclei (DAPI) to all experiments. It is unclear how many cells are being looked at. For example, in the staining of Fig4A, the stained nuclei are slightly visible in the shLox group, but not at all in the control above. Phenotypes should be compared under the same conditions. A: *All phenotypes were analyzed under the same conditions and were taken with DAPI. We have added DAPI to all images. As mentioned in comment #1, we have now added to the legends the number of cells analyzed in each experiment. *

      • *

      For ROCK and RhoA analysis (in Fig4-6), immunostaining and Western alone are not convincing and not sufficient evidence for activation. Other factors, such as methods to measure activation and focal adhesion molecules should be considered.

      A: The analyses of ROCK and RhoA are shown in Figure 6. As suggested, we have quantified focal adhesion numbers and size by monitoring vinculin. Our findings demonstrate there are more focal adhesions that form in control cells than in the LOX-devoid ones and that in the latter, those that do form are significantly smaller. These results suggest that the adhesions that form in the mutant cells are weaker and less mature. We have added this data and it will now be presented as Supp. Figure 5. Therefore the previous Supp. Figures 5 and 6 will be shifted accordingly. We have related to these findings in the text.

      *As mentioned above, we will use image analysis to quantify the alterations in the cytoskeletal elements such as those shown in Figure 4.

      *


      It is unclear what the TEM in Fig8 is trying to clarify. Since SMCs and elastic fibers are supposed to be bound, it would be better to show the binding site. In addition, the p-MLC in Fig8D-F is a qualitative evaluation, so the difference is not clear, and it is necessary to verify whether there is a difference in Myh11CreERT2;Loxfl/fl mice between aneurysmal (pathogenic) and non-aneurysmal lesions. Overall, this is an associated study that this only speculation since the causal relationship between aneurysm development and Lox functions, which authors found is unclear.

      A: The first part of the comment refers to the TEM images. These have been addressed in the previous section (planned revision) and as mentioned, we will monitor the SMC binding sites to the elastic fibers. The comment raised by the reviewer on p-MLC was not clear to us. As mentioned, we primarily focused on the non-aneurysmal regions whether in AngII-induced hypertensive mice or in non-hypertensive mice as our results suggest that even in the lack of hypertension where no aneurysms develop, cytoskeletal organization is lost following the reduction of Lox activity. In the images shown in Figure 8 (and the associated quantifications) we focused on such regions from mice that were not treated with AngII. We find that even in what appears as a "healthy" region, disrupted p-MLC is observed. Notably, this disruption is not that the cells do not respond, but rather that the coordinated response is lost in the mutant mice. This lack of coordination is shown in the quantification where the two histograms depicting p-MLC expression have distinct distributions (Kolmogorov-Smirnov test p value=0). We have rephrased the relevant text in the manuscript.

      Minor comments (numbers correspond to the numbering by the reviewer):

      Please indicate scale bar in Fig1D, Fig2D, Fig3A-B, D-F, Fig4A-C, Fig5A-E, Fig8D-E.

      A: We apologize for omitting the scale bars. They have now been added to all figures.

      What the bars in the Fig2A-B graphs indicate? Information on the number of experiments and statistical analysis should be included in Figure or its legend.

      A: *The bars in Figure 2A are qRT-PCR results of 3 independent biological samples showing expression of LOX family members in the HAOSMC. In Figure 2B, we set to monitor whether the expression of other member of the LOX family is modified in the shLOX cells. The graph shown the relative genes' expression in relation to shCtrl cells. The error bars in both Fig. 2A and B relate to the results of the 3 independent repeats the experiments were performed. As seen in Fig. 2A, the predominant member of the LOX family expressed in SMC is LOX. Further, the expression of other members of the family is not significantly changed in its loss (Fig. 2B). *

      Similarly, Fig3C should include information on the number of analyzed cells and statics in the figure legend.

      A: The data has been added.

      5. What is the reason for separating Fig4F-G? It is not clear how many times the experiment was conducted. Fig1C, Fig6A-B, F-G should also describe the number of experiments and statistical analysis.

      A: We have added all repeat numbers and statistical analysis to the legends. We are not clear as to the separation of Fig. 4F-G as there is no such figure. If the reviewer refers to Fig. 5 F-G, then we simply aimed to show that although the immunostaining results demonstrate that the two proteins are mislocalized, their levels are not affected in the LOX mutant cells.

      Please describe the administration of treatment and concentration of drugs such as Calyculin A, in figure legend.

      A: Drug concentrations have now been added to the figure legend. A more detailed description is available in the Methods section.

      • *

      Reviewer 2:

      Major comments (numbers correspond to the order written by the reviewer):

      • *

      The authors state in the introduction "Our results therefore highlight a missing link between the three distinct gene groups associated with aneurysms, thus serving as a molecular paradigm for the development of phenotypes that culminate in aneurysm.", referring to the groups of genes in ECM structural proteins, members of the TGFb signaling pathway and genes involved in VSMC contractile apparatus. However, they do not provide data on the complex interplay between all of these groups and LOX. Therefore, the authors should add more nuance to this statement or change it altogether.

      A: We agree with the reviewer that we have not shown any link between TGFβ signaling and LOX, even though these interactions have been previously demonstrated by us and others (see reply to Reviewer 1 comment #6). We are gearing up towards testing the TGFβ pathway also in the LOX devoid SMCs. Should we be unsuccessful, we will tone down this statement.

      The authors have provided data on the phenotypic modulation with regards to expression of LOX and the contractile apparatus of VSMCs. However, to support the claim mentioned in the previous point, the authors should add experiments that show the relationship between LOX expression and specific genes involved in ECM structure and/or members of the TGFb family.

      A: In a recent manuscript (Melamed et al., Cell Reports, 2023; PMID 37148241) we specifically focused on LOX and Fibronectin and we demonstrated that the LOX-devoid HAOSMC build an abnormal Fibronectin matrix which serves as a scaffold for ECM buildup. Along these lines, Supp. Figure 3A shows LC-MS/MS data of changes in ECM structural proteins' presence in the matrix of cells following LOX knockdown in cultured HAOSMC. As requested in the above comment, we are gearing up towards assessing TGFb signaling in the mutant cells.

      In general, the authors provide a detailed description of the experimental setup in the methods section of the manuscript. However, the authors fail to provide methodology on some of their experiments. Per example, in text-line 152 the authors describe removing the cells from the ECM whilst leaving the ECM behind, but do not provide information on how this was done.

      A: We thank the reviewer for the comment. We have added the details of the experiment.

      The authors partially fail to provide n# for experiments throughout the manuscript and which statistical test was used for the comparisons in the figure.

      A: We have now added to the figure legends all the n# and statistical tests that were used.

      Minor comments (numbers correspond to the order written by the reviewer):

      1. The authors make limited use of referring to appropriate literature. A: We have added additional relevant references.

      2. *

      The figures including images often lack scalebars. Moreover, the figure description is often incomplete. A: We thank the reviewer for the comment. As mentioned in the replies to Reviewer 1, we will add all the data and bars to the relevant figures.

      Use Graphad Prism (or another well designed software) for figure illustration. A: *Graphs and histograms were generated using Matlab, excel and R and the figures were put together using Adobe Illustrator, all of which are designed for such illustrations. *

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Comments to the Author):

      Summary:

      In this study, Xie and colleagues aimed to explore the function and potential mechanisms of the gut microbiota in a hamster model of severe leptospirosis. The results demonstrated that Leptospira infection was able to cause intestine damage and inflammation. Leptospira infection promoted an expansion of Proteobacteria, increased gut barrier permeability, and elevated LPS levels in the serum. Thus, they proposed an LPS-neutralization therapy which improved the survival rate of moribund hamsters combined with antibody therapy or antibiotic therapy.

      Strengths:

      The work is well-designed and the story is interesting to me. The gut microbiota is essential for immunity and systemic health. Many life-threatening pathogens, such as SARS-CoV-2 and other gut-damaged infection, have the potential to disrupt the gut microbiota in the later stages of infection, causing some harmful gut microbiota-derived substances to enter the bloodstream. It is emphasized that in addition to exogenous pathogenic pathogens, harmful substances of intestinal origin should also be considered in critically ill patients.

      Weaknesses:

      Q1: There are many serotypes of Leptospira, it is suggested to test another pathogenic serotype of Leptospira to validate the proposed therapy.

      That’s a constructive suggestion. We have tested another pathogenic serotype of Leptospira (L. interrogans serovar Autumnalis strain 56606) to verify the LPS-neutralization therapy combined with antibiotic therapy (Supplementary Fig. S9B). The results showed that the combination of the LPS-neutralization therapy with antibody therapy or antibiotic therapy also significantly improved the survival rate of hamsters infected by 56606.

      Q2: Authors should explain why the infective doses of leptospires was not consistent in different study.

      Thank you for your comment. To examine the role of the gut microbiota on acute leptospirosis, the infective doses of leptospires was chosen for 106, while in other sections of the study, the infective doses of leptospires was chosen for 107. In fact, we also used 107 leptospires to infect hamsters, however, the infective doses of 107 leptospires might be overdose, there was no significant difference on the survival rate between the control group and the Abx-treated group. A previous study also highlighted that the infective doses of leptospires was important in the investigating the sex on leptospirosis, as male hamsters infected with L. interrogans are more susceptible to severe leptospirosis after exposure to lower infectious doses than females (103 leptospires but not 104 leptospires) (1).

      Reference

      (1) GOMES C K, GUEDES M, POTULA H H, et al. Sex Matters: Male Hamsters Are More Susceptible to Lethal Infection with Lower Doses of Pathogenic Leptospira than Female Hamsters (J). Infect Immun, 2018, 86(10).

      Q3: In the discussion section, it is better to supplement the discussion of the potential link between the natural route of infection and leptospirosis.

      Thank for your suggestion. We have supplemented it in the discussion (line 523-527 in the track change PDF version).

      Q4: Line 231, what is the solvent of thioglycolate?

      We have supplemented it in the manuscript (line 242-243 in the track change PDF version).

      Q5: Lines 962-964, there are some mistakes which are not matched to Figure 7.

      Thank you for pointing that out, we have corrected it in the manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Comments to the Author):

      Summary:

      Severe leptospirosis in humans and some mammals often meet death in the endpoint. In this article, authors explored the role of the gut microbiota in severe leptospirosis. They found that Leptospira infection promoted a dysbiotic gut microbiota with an expansion of Proteobacteria and LPS neutralization therapy synergized with antileptospiral therapy significantly improved the survival rates in severe leptospirosis. This study is well-organized and has potentially important clinical implications not only for severe leptospirosis but also for other gut-damaged infections.

      Weaknesses:

      Q1: In the Introduction section and Discussion section, the authors should describe and discuss more about the differences in the effect of Leptospira infection between mice and hamsters, so that the readers can follow this study better.

      Thank you for your suggestion, we have supplemented it in the manuscript (line 62-66 in the track change PDF version).

      Q2: Lines 92-95, the authors should explain why they chose two different routines of infection.

      Thank you for your comment, we have explained it in the manuscript (line 100 in the track change PDF version).

      Q3: Line 179-180, the concentration of PMB and Dox is missed, and 0.016 μg/L is just ok.

      We have corrected it in the manuscript.

      Q4: "μL" or "μl" and "mL" or "ml' should be uniform in the manuscript.

      Thank you for your suggestion, we have revised it in the manuscript.

      Q5: In the culture of primary macrophages, how many cells are inoculated in the plates should be described clearly.

      We have supplemented it in the manuscript (line 250 in the track change PDF version).

      Q6: Line 271, it is better to list primers used for leptospiral detection in the text. Because it allows readers to find the information they need more directly.

      Thank you for your suggestions, we have supplemented it in the manuscript (line 281-284 in the track change PDF version).

      Q7: Line 366-369, Lactobacillus seems to be a kind of key bacteria during Leptospira infection. A previous study (doi: 10.1371/journal.pntd.0005870) also demonstrated that pre-treatment with Lactobacillus plantarum prevented severe pathogenesis in mice. The authors should discuss the potential probiotic for leptospirosis prevention.

      We have discussed it in the manuscript (line 564-566 in the track change PDF version).

      Q8: Lines 450-451, not all concentrations of fecal filtration from two groups upregulated all gene expression mentioned in the text, the authors should correct it.

      Thank you for pointing that out, we have corrected it in the manuscript (line 461-462 in the track change PDF version).

      Reviewer #3 (Comments to the Author):

      Summary:

      This is a well-prepared manuscript that presented interesting research results. The only defect is that the authors should further revise the English language.

      Strengths:

      The omics method produced unbiased results.

      Weaknesses:

      Q1: LPS neutralization is not a new method for treating leptospiral infection.

      Thank you for your comment. Yes, LPS neutralization is not a new method for treating leptospiral infection, most of which might focus on leptospiral LPS. In addition, Leptospira seemed to be naturally resistant to polymyxin B (1). Recently, neutralizing gut-derived LPS was applied in other diseases which significantly relieved diseases (2-3). In this study, we found that Leptospira infection promoted an expansion of Proteobacteria, increased gut barrier permeability, and elevated LPS levels in the serum. Thus, we proposed an LPS-neutralization therapy which improved the survival rate of moribund hamsters combined with antibody therapy or antibiotic therapy.

      Reference

      (1) LIEGEON G, DELORY T, PICARDEAU M. Antibiotic susceptibilities of livestock isolates of leptospira (J). Int J Antimicrob Agents, 2018, 51(5):693-699.

      (2) MUNOZ L, BORRERO M J, UBEDA M, et al. Intestinal Immune Dysregulation Driven by Dysbiosis Promotes Barrier Disruption and Bacterial Translocation in Rats With Cirrhosis (J). Hepatology, 2019, 70(3):925-938.

      (3) ZHANG X, LIU H, HASHIMOTO K, et al. The gut-liver axis in sepsis: interaction mechanisms and therapeutic potential (J). Crit Care, 2022, 26(1):213.

      Q2: The authors should further revise the English language used in the text.

      Thank you for your suggestion, our manuscript has been polished by American Journal Experts (certificate number: 81C8-C5C1-9D5D-109D-3F23).

    1. Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This study proposes visual homogeneity as a novel visual property that enables observers perform to several seemingly disparate visual tasks, such as finding an odd item, deciding if two items are same, or judging if an object is symmetric. In Exp 1, the reaction times on several objects were measured in human subjects. In Exp 2, visual homogeneity of each object was calculated based on the reaction time data. The visual homogeneity scores predicted reaction times. This value was also correlated with the BOLD signals in a specific region anterior to LO. Similar methods were used to analyze reaction time and fMRI data in a symmetry detection task. It is concluded that visual homogeneity is an important feature that enables observers to solve these two tasks.

      Strengths:

      (1) The writing is very clear. The presentation of the study is informative.<br /> (2) This study includes several behavioral and fMRI experiments. I appreciate the scientific rigor of the authors.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) My main concern with this paper is the way visual homogeneity is computed. On page 10, lines 188-192, it says: "we then asked if there is any point in this multidimensional representation such that distances from this point to the target-present and target-absent response vectors can accurately predict the target-present and target-absent response times with a positive and negative correlation respectively (see Methods)". This is also true for the symmetry detection task. If I understand correctly, the reference point in this perceptual space was found by deliberating satisfying the negative and positive correlations in response times. And then on page 10, lines 200-205, it shows that the positive and negative correlations actually exist. This logic is confusing. The positive and negative correlations emerge only because this method is optimized to do so. It seems more reasonable to identify the reference point of this perceptual space independently, without using the reaction time data. Otherwise, the inference process sounds circular. A simple way is to just use the mean point of all objects in Exp 1, without any optimization towards reaction time data.

      (2) Visual homogeneity (at least given the current from) is an unnecessary term. It is similar to distractor heterogeneity/distractor variability/distractor statics in literature. However, the authors attempt to claim it as a novel concept. The title is "visual homogeneity computations in the brain enable solving generic visual tasks". The last sentence of the abstract is "a NOVEL IMAGE PROPERTY, visual homogeneity, is encoded in a localized brain region, to solve generic visual tasks". In the significance, it is mentioned that "we show that these tasks can be solved using a simple property WE DEFINE as visual homogeneity". If the authors agree that visual homogeneity is not new, I suggest a complete rewrite of the title, abstract, significance, and introduction.

      (3) Also, "solving generic tasks" is another overstatement. The oddball search tasks, same-different tasks, and symmetric tasks are only a small subset of many visual tasks. Can this "quantitative model" solve motion direction judgment tasks, visual working memory tasks? Perhaps so, but at least this manuscript provides no such evidence. On line 291, it says "we have proposed that visual homogeneity can be used to solve any task that requires discriminating between homogeneous and heterogeneous displays". I think this is a good statement. A title that says "XXXX enable solving discrimination tasks with multi-component displays" is more acceptable. The phrase "generic tasks" is certainly an exaggeration.

      (4) If I understand it correctly, one of the key findings of this paper is "the response times for target-present searches were positively correlated with visual homogeneity. By contrast, the response times for target-absent searches were negatively correlated with visual homogeneity" (lines 204-207). I think the authors have already acknowledged that the positive correlation is not surprising at all because it reflects the classic target-distractor similarity effect. But the authors claim that the negative correlations in target-absent searches is the true novel finding.

      (5) I would like to make it clear that this negative correlation is not new either. The seminal paper by Duncan and Humphreys (1989) has clearly stated that "difficulty increases with increased similarity of targets to nontargets and decreased similarity between nontargets" (the sentence in their abstract). Here, "similarity between nontargets" is the same as the visual homogeneity defined here. Similar effects have been shown in Duncan (1989) and Nagy, Neriani, and Young (2005). See also the inconsistent results in Nagy& Thomas, 2003, Vicent, Baddeley, Troscianko&Gilchrist, 2009.<br /> More recently, Wei Ji Ma has systematically investigated the effects of heterogeneous distractors in visual search. I think the introduction part of Wei Ji Ma's paper (2020) provides a nice summary of this line of research.

      I am surprised that these references are not mentioned at all in this manuscript (except Duncan and Humphreys, 1989).

      (6) If the key contribution is the quantitative model, the study should be organized in a different way. Although the findings of positive and negative correlations are not novel, it is still good to propose new models to explain classic phenomena. I would like to mention the three studies by Wei Ji Ma (see below). In these studies, Bayesian observer models were established to account for trial-by-trial behavioral responses. These computational models can also account for the set-size effect, behavior in both localization and detection tasks. I see much more scientific rigor in their studies. Going back to the quantitative model in this paper, I am wondering whether the model can provide any qualitative prediction beyond the positive and negative correlations? Can the model make qualitative predictions that differ from those of Wei Ji's model? If not, can the authors show that the model can quantitatively better account for the data than existing Bayesian models? We should evaluate a model either qualitatively or quantitatively.

      (7) In my opinion, one of the advantages of this study is the fMRI dataset, which is valuable because previous studies did not collect fMRI data. The key contribution may be the novel brain region associated with display heterogeneity. If this is the case, I would suggest using a more parametric way to measure this region. For example, one can use Gabor stimuli and systematically manipulate the variations of multiple Gabor stimuli, the same logic also applies to motion direction. If this study uses static Gabor, random dot motion, object images that span from low-level to high-level visual stimuli, and consistently shows that the stimulus heterogeneity is encoded in one brain region, I would say this finding is valuable. But this sounds like another experiment. In other words, it is insufficient to claim a new brain region given the current form of the manuscript.

      REFERENCES<br /> - Duncan, J., & Humphreys, G. W. (1989). Visual search and stimulus similarity. Psychological Review, 96(3), 433-458. doi: 10.1037/0033-295x.96.3.433<br /> - Duncan, J. (1989). Boundary conditions on parallel processing in human vision. Perception, 18(4), 457-469. doi: 10.1068/p180457<br /> - Nagy, A. L., Neriani, K. E., & Young, T. L. (2005). Effects of target and distractor heterogeneity on search for a color target. Vision Research, 45(14), 1885-1899. doi: 10.1016/j.visres.2005.01.007<br /> - Nagy, A. L., & Thomas, G. (2003). Distractor heterogeneity, attention, and color in visual search. Vision Research, 43(14), 1541-1552. doi: 10.1016/s0042-6989(03)00234-7<br /> - Vincent, B., Baddeley, R., Troscianko, T., & Gilchrist, I. (2009). Optimal feature integration in visual search. Journal of Vision, 9(5), 15-15. doi: 10.1167/9.5.15<br /> - Singh, A., Mihali, A., Chou, W. C., & Ma, W. J. (2023). A Computational Approach to Search in Visual Working Memory.<br /> - Mihali, A., & Ma, W. J. (2020). The psychophysics of visual search with heterogeneous distractors. BioRxiv, 2020-08.<br /> - Calder-Travis, J., & Ma, W. J. (2020). Explaining the effects of distractor statistics in visual search. Journal of Vision, 20(13), 11-11.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment

      In their valuable study, Chen et al. aim to define the neuronal role of HMMR, a microtubule-associated protein typically associated with cell division. Their findings suggest that HMMR is necessary for proper neuronal morphology and the generation of polymerizing microtubules within neurites, potentially by promoting the function of TPX2. While the study is recognized as a first step in deciphering the influence of HMMR on microtubule organization in neurons, reviewers note the current work has important gaps and would benefit from further exploration of the mechanism of microtubule stability by HMMR, the link between HMMR-mediated microtubule generation and morphogenesis, and the physiological implications of disrupting HMMR during neuronal morphogenesis.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      The microtubule cytoskeleton is essential for basic cell functions, enabling intracellular transport, and establishment of cell polarity and motility. Microtubule-associated proteins (MAPs) contribute to the regulation of microtubule dynamics and stability - mechanisms that are specifically important for the development and physiological function of neurons. Here, the authors aimed to elucidate the neuronal function of the MAP Hmmr, which they had previously identified in a quantitative study of the proteome associated with neuronal microtubules.

      The authors conduct well-controlled experiments to demonstrate the localization of endogenous as well as exogenous Hmmr on microtubules within the soma as well as all neurites of hippocampal neurons. Functional analysis using gain- and loss-of-function approaches demonstrates that Hmmr levels are crucial for neuronal morphogenesis, as the length of both dendrites and axons decreases upon loss of Hmmr and increases upon Hmmr overexpression. In addition to length alterations, the branching pattern of neurites changes with Hmmr levels. To uncover the mechanism of how Hmmr influences neuronal morphology, the authors follow the lead that Hmmr overexpression induces looped microtubules in the soma, indicative of an increase in microtubule stability. Microtubule acetylation indeed decreases and increases with Hmmr LOF and GOF, respectively. Together with a rescue of nocodazole-induced microtubule destabilization by Hmmr GOF, these results argue that Hmmr regulates microtubule stability. Highlighted by the altered movement of a plus-end-associated protein, Hmmr also has an effect on the dynamic nature of microtubules. The authors present evidence suggesting that the nucleation frequency of neuronal microtubules depends on Hmmr's ability to recruit the microtubule nucleator Tpx2. Together, these data add novel insight into MAP-mediated regulation of microtubules as a prerequisite for neuronal morphogenesis. While the data shown support the author's conclusions, the study also has several weaknesses:

      • The study appears incomplete as the initial proteomics analysis which is referenced as an entry into the study is not presented. This surely is the authors' choice, however, without presenting this data set, it would make more sense if the authors first showed the localization of Hmmr on neuronal microtubules and then started with the functional analysis.

      The reviewer suggests moving the Hmmr localization data in front of the loss- and gain-of-function data because we did not present the proteomics data. However, we still believe placing the loss- and gain-of-function data in the beginning is the better arrangement. This is because it allows the audience to see the drastic changes on neuronal morphology when HMMR is depleted or overly abundant. It also provides a better linkage between HMMR’s localization on microtubules and its effect on the stability and dynamics of microtubules.

      • Neurite branching is quantified, but the methods used are not consistent (normalized branch density vs. Sholl analysis) and there is no distinction between alterations of branching in dendrites vs. axons. This information should be added as it could prove informative with respect to the physiological function of Hmmr in neurite branching.

      Sholl analysis is considered the gold standard in neurite branching analyses. However, in the knockdown experiment (Figure 1A~1E), HMMR-depleted neurons exhibited extremely short axons (<100 μm) and dendrites (<40 μm). Using Sholl analysis to assess the branching of these Hmmrdepleted neurons became unsuitable. That is why we used normalized branch density (Figure 1E) in the knockdown experiment and Sholl analysis (Figure 1J) in the overexpression experiment.

      Regarding the branching difference between axons and dendrites, only axons exhibit branches at 4 DIV. Therefore, the branching analysis focuses on axons rather than on dendrites. We have revised the manuscript to clarify this.

      • The authors show that altered Hmmr levels affect neurite branching and identify an effect on microtubule stability and dynamics as a molecular mechanism. However, how branching correlates with or is regulated by Hmmr-mediated microtubule dynamics is neither addressed experimentally nor discussed by the authors. The physiological significance of altered neuronal morphogenesis also lacks discussion.
      • To discuss how branching correlates with or is regulated by HMMR-mediated microtubule dynamics, we have added the following paragraph into the Discussion section:

      “It has been shown that compromising microtubule nucleation in neurons by SSNA1 mutant overexpression prevents proper axon branching (Basnet et al., 2018). Additionally, dendritic branching in Drosophila sensory neurons depends on the orientation of microtubule nucleation. Nucleation that results in an anterograde microtubule growth leads to increased branching, while nucleation that results in a retrograde microtubule growth leads to decreased branching (Yalgin et al., 2015). These results demonstrate the importance of microtubule nucleation on neurite branching. It is conceivable that overexpressing a microtubule nucleation promoting protein such as HMMR results in an increase of branching complexity.”

      • In terms of discussing the physiological significance of altered neuronal morphogenesis. We have added the following paragraph to the Discussion section:

      “Neurons are the communication units of the nervous system. The formation of their intricate shape is therefore crucial for the physiological function. Alterations in neuronal morphogenesis have a profound impact on how nerve cells communicate, leading to a variety of physiological consequences. These consequences include impaired neural circuit formation and function, compromised signal transmission between neurons, as well as altered anatomical structure of the CNS. Depending on the specific type and location of the morphogenetically altered neurons, the physiological consequences can include neurological disorders such as autism spectrum disorder (Berkel et al., 2012) and schizophrenia (Goo et al., 2023), as well as learning and memory deficits (Winkle et al., 2016). However, due to the involvement of HMMR on mitosis, most HMMR mutations are associated with familial cancers (based on ClinVar data).”

      • Multiple times, the manuscript lacks a rationale for an experimental approach, choice of cell type, time points, regions of interest, etc. Also, a meaningful description of the methods and for how data were analyzed is missing, making the paper hard to read for someone not directly from the field.

      We understand the reviewer’s comments regarding the lack of rationale for choosing the experimental approach, choice of cell type, time points, regions of interest, etc. As a result, we have added the rationales where appropriate to help readers from other fields to better understand the choice of cell type, time points, regions of interest, etc. A brief explanation is shown below:

      • Approach and timing: We employed both electroporation (immediate but milder expression) and lipofectamine transfection (delayed but stronger expression). We prioritized knocking down HMMR early in development, so electroporation was used. For overexpression experiments, we chose lipofectamine which allows high protein expression level to be achieved.

      • Cell selection: Hippocampal neurons were chosen in experiments that involve morphological quantification due to their homogeneous morphology. On the other hand, cortical neurons were selected in experiments that require large amounts of neurons and/or experiments where we want to demonstrate the universality of a proposed hypothesis.

      • Regions of interest (ROIs): In our previous publication (Chen et al., 2017), it was discovered that a significant reduction of EB3 emanation frequency can be detected at the tip and the base of the neurite but not in the middle of the neurite in TPX2-depleted neurons. The reason for this difference is due to the presence of GTP-bound Ran GTPase (RanGTP) at the tip and the base of the neurite. Since RanGTP has also been shown to regulate the interaction between HMMR and TPX2 in the cell-free system (Scrofani et al., 2015), it is possible that the same phenomenon can be observed in HMMR-depleted neurons. This is why we examined those 3 ROIs in Figure 4.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      The mechanism of microtubule formation, stabilization, and organization in neurites is important for neuronal function. In this manuscript, the authors examine the phenotype of neurons following alteration in the level of the protein HMMR, a microtubule-associated protein with established roles in mitosis. Neurite morphology is measured as well as microtubule stability and dynamic parameters using standard assays. A binding partner of HMMR, TPX2, is localized. The results support a role for HMMR in neurons.

      The work presented in this manuscript seeks to determine if a MAP called HMMR contributes to microtubule dynamics in neurons. Several steps, including validation of the RNAi, additional statistical analysis, use of cells at the same age in culture, and better documentation in figures, would increase the impact of the work.

      In many places, the data can be improved which might make the story more convincing. As presented, the results show that HMMR is distributed as puncta on neurons with data coming from a single HMMR antibody, and some background staining that was not discussed. In the discussion the authors state that HMMR impacts microtubule stability, which was evaluated by the presence of post-translational modification and resistance to nocodazole; the data are suggestive but not entirely convincing. The discussion also states that HMMR increases the “amount” of growing microtubules which was measured as the frequency of comet appearance. The authors did not comment on how the number of growing microtubules results in the observed morphological changes.

      We actually tested several HMMR antibodies, including E-19 (Santa Cruz, sc-16170), EPR4054 (Abcam, ab124729), and a variety of antibodies provided by Prof. Eva Turley. E-19 performed the best in immunofluorescence (IF) staining and knockdown validation. The other antibodies either failed to detect HMMR in IF staining or generate excessive background signal. We understand that the final images are produced using a single antibody. But since we meticulous validated this antibody and that the localization of overexpressed HMMR is consistent with the endogenous HMMR, we are very confident about our data generated using this single antibody.

      We have added the following paragraph in the Discussion section to elucidate how the number of growing microtubules result in the observed morphological changes such as an increase of axon branches:

      “It has been shown that compromising microtubule nucleation in neurons by SSNA1 mutant overexpression prevents proper axon branching (Basnet et al., 2018). Additionally, dendritic branching in Drosophila sensory neurons depends on the orientation of microtubule nucleation. Nucleation that results in an anterograde microtubule growth leads to increased branching, while nucleation that results in a retrograde microtubule growth leads to decreased branching (Yalgin et al., 2015). These results demonstrate the importance of microtubule nucleation on neurite branching. It is conceivable that overexpressing a microtubule nucleation promoting protein such as HMMR results in an increase of branching complexity.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for The Authors):

      (1) The manuscript jumps extensively between main figures and supplementary figures. Please check whether parts of the supplement could be moved to the main figures.

      We understand the frustration of moving back and forth between the main figures and supplementary figures. After examining the manuscript, we decided to combine Figure 2A with Figure S3.

      (2) In Figure 1, total neurite length between days 3 and 4 DIV does not appear to change - can this be true?

      Please check or else explain.

      We carefully re-examined our raw data and found out the total neurite length of 4 DIV hippocampal neurons expressing non-targeting shRNA (Figure 1B) and that of 3 DIV hippocampal neurons expressing AcGFP (Figure 1G) are indeed very similar. The explanation is that the 3 DIV hippocampal neurons used for Figure 1G was cultured in low-density and in the presence of cortical neuron-conditioned neurobasal medium (as written in Methods, Neuron culture and transfection section). The low-density culture with minimal overlapping neurites allowed us to better quantify total neurite length, because neurons expressing AcGFP-mHMMR sprouted long and highly branched axons. However, the addition of cortical neuron-conditioned neurobasal medium promoted neurite elongation. This is the reason why the total neurite length of 4 DIV hippocampal neurons expressing non-targeting shRNA (Figure 1B) and that of 3 DIV hippocampal neurons expressing AcGFP (Figure 1G) is similar.

      (3) Groen et al. have shown that Hmmr also bundles microtubules, a mechanism that surely is important for neuronal microtubules. Please discuss.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out that HMMR also bundles microtubules and have added this to our revised Discussion section:

      “It has been shown that the Xenopus HMMR homolog XRHAMM bundles microtubules in vitro (Groen et al., 2004). In addition, deleting proteins which promote microtubule bundling (e.g., doublecortin knockout, MAP1B/MAP2 double knockout) leads to impaired neurite outgrowth (Bielas et al., 2007; Teng et al., 2001). These observations are consistent with our data that overexpressing HMMR leads to the increased axon and dendrite outgrowth, while depleting it results in the opposite phenotype (Figure 1).”

      (4) Please explain why in Figure 4, cortical neurons were chosen for analysis and why and how the three different ROIs were picked.

      To answer the question why we chose cortical neurons for the analyses in Figure 4, it will be important to explain why we used hippocampal neurons for other figures. Primary hippocampal neurons have a high homogeneity in terms of their morphology. This uniform morphology allows more consistent morphological quantification. Figure 4, however, does not involve morphological quantification. We are more confident to conclude that HMMR regulates microtubule dynamics if this effect can be detected in the relatively heterogeneous cortical neurons. These are the reasons why we chose to analyze cortical neurons in Figure 4.

      In our previous publication (Chen et al., 2017), it was discovered that a significant reduction of EB3 emanation frequency can be detected at the tip and the base of the neurite but not in the middle of the neurite in TPX2-depleted neurons. The reason for this difference is due to the presence of GTP-bound Ran GTPase (RanGTP) at the tip of the neurite and in the soma. Since RanGTP has also been shown to regulate the interaction between HMMR and TPX2 in the cell-free system (Scrofani et al., 2015), it is possible that the same phenomenon can be observed in HMMR-depleted neurons. This was why we examined those 3 ROIs in Figure 4.

      (5) Microtubule looping has been shown to occur in regions prior to branch formation (e.g. Dent et al. 2004). As the authors identify increased looping upon Hmmr GOF, this should be discussed.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out that microtubule looping occurs in regions of branch formation and have added this to our revised discussion:

      “It is worth noting that the elevated level of HMMR increases the branching density of axons (Figure 1J) and promotes the formation of looped microtubules (Figure 3A). This is consistent with the observations that looped microtubules are often detected in regions of axon branch formation (Dent et al., 1999; Dent and Kalil, 2001; Purro et al., 2008).”

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for The Authors):

      (1) The work seeks to gain insight into microtubule behavior in neurons, an important issue.

      (2) Several steps, including validation of the RNAi, additional statistical analysis, use of cells at the same age in culture, and better documentation in figures, would increase the impact of the work.

      (3) Figure 1 documents the results of experiments in which the HMMR protein was depleted using shRNA. A western blot of cell extracts from control and depleted cells is needed to verify that the protein level is reduced; alternatively, documentation of the reduction in RNA levels in treated cells could be provided. Neurite, axon, and dendrite length and branch density are measured. The neurite length is in microns, and the axon length is normalized to 100% of the non-treated cells. Please use the same for measures for easier comparison. Looking at the images in Figure 1, the length of the dendrites does not look different in the examples shown, whereas the axon appears shorter. This impression is not supported by the quantification. Are representative images shown? Additionally, the authors should report the values for each replicate of the experiment and compare the three averages rather than comparison of lengths from all measurements. A related issue is that the dendrites do not look longer in panel F, following overexpression of HMMR. For examples of using averages of replicates see: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32346721/

      The reviewer mentioned that Western blot of cell extracts or RNA quantification from control and depleted cells are needed to verify that the protein level is reduced.

      Unfortunately, these assays are extremely difficult to perform in primary neurons due to the low transfection efficiency. We believe that the consistent knockdown phenotype from 3 different shRNA sequences (Figure 1A-D) and the immunofluorescence staining in depleted primary neurons (Figure S2) are sufficient to confirm that HMMR level is reduced.

      We revised Figure 1C, 1D, 1H, 1I so that axon and dendrite lengths are all in micron.

      We selected another image for the non-targeting control in Figure 1A to better demonstrate the reduction of dendrite length when HMMR is knocked down.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion of comparing the three average values rather than comparing all measurements. We have performed statistical analyses for all our data using the average values and revised the graphs accordingly. While the P-values changed, our conclusions remain the same.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out this discrepancy and have selected another image of the AcGFP control for Figure 1F to better demonstrate the increase of dendrite length when HMMR is overexpressed.

      (4) Given the changes in neurite morphology, the authors examine the localization of endogenous and overexpressed. The supplemental figures (see S2 and S3) show evidence that HMMR is present in a punctate pattern by conventional immunofluorescence. This is reasonable evidence that the protein is in a linear pattern along cytoskeletal microtubules and that the signal is present in puncta. Please move this to the main text, perhaps replacing Figure 2A, which is low magnification and very hard to see the HMMR staining. Additionally, the level of overexpression of HMMR is not mentioned. Please address this; were cells with similar levels of overexpression selected? Did the result depend on the overexpression? A related issue is the DIV for the cells - some are examined earlier and some at later times; does this impact the results? Please provide information or perform experiments with consistent timing. For the immunofluorescence, were multiple antibodies tried to see if the result was the same with each? Were different fixations, in addition to methanol, utilized?

      We have replaced Figure 2A with Figure S3 based on the reviewer’s suggestion.

      In the HMMR overexpression experiments, we used HMMR antibody and immunofluorescence staining to confirm that the overexpression is achieved. However, we did not quantify to what extend HMMR was overexpressed.

      We performed all the depletion experiments on 4 DIV to maximize knockdown efficiency and performed all the overexpression experiments on 3 DIV to prevent excessive axon fasciculation. Nonetheless, we examined the effect of HMMR depletion on neuronal morphology on 3 DIV. The trend of reduced total neurite length, axon length, and dendrite length can be observed, but no statistical significance can be detected. We also examined the effect of HMMR overexpression on neuronal morphology on 4 DIV and did observe an increase of total neurite length, axon length, and dendrite length. But the overlapping and bundled axons made reliable quantification extremely difficult.

      We actually tested multiple HMMR antibodies, such as E-19 (Santa Cruz, sc-16170), EPR4054 (Abcam, ab124729), and a variety of antibodies provided by Prof. Eva Turley. E19 performed the best in immunofluorescence (IF) staining and knockdown validation. The other antibodies either failed to detect HMMR in IF staining or generate excessive background signal. We also tested various fixation methods, including 37°C formaldehyde fixation, -20°C methanol fixation, 37°C formaldehyde followed by -20°C methanol fixation. All fixation methods generated similar IF staining pattern using the E-19 antibody, but 3.7% formaldehyde fixation produced the highest signal.

      (5) In Figure 2 C it is hard to see DAPI fluorescence. Are the white areas in the merge with bright cell nuclei? Is Figure 2C control or overexpressing cells? If this is endogenous, is there less signal in PLA compared with S4, which was in culture longer and is overexpressed prior to using PLA for detection?

      The white areas in Figure 2C the reviewer mentioned are not cell nuclei, they are actually bubbles formed within the mounting medium.

      HMMR detected in Figure 2C is endogenous. We did not quantitatively compare the PLA signals in Figure 2C and those in Figure S4. This is because the PLA signals in Figure 2C are generated using anti-HMMR (to detect endogenous HMMR) and anti-β-III-tubulin antibodies while those in Figure S4 are generated using anti-AcGFP (to detect overexpressed AcGFP-mHMMR) and anti-β-III-tubulin antibodies. Since the affinity of the two antibodies (i.e., anti-HMMR and anti-AcGFP) toward their antigens is different, comparing the PLA signals is not informative.

      (6) The images of the endogenous HMMR (Fig S3) and the PLA with tubulin and HMMR antibodies are not the same (2C). The "dots" in PLA are widely separated; gauging from the marker bar length of 50 μm, the small clusters of dots are about 10 μm apart. In Figure S3, the puncta are much more closely spaced, appearing almost in a linear fashion along the microtubules. Enlarging the PLA image shows that each dot is very small - just a few pixels - please provide additional explanation including the minimal detection limit for the method, and why the images differ. If the standard immunofluorescence signal was enhanced, for example with the use of two secondaries, what is observed? Is the distribution of HMMR similar for both dendrites and axons? Microtubule polarity differs in these locations, so greater attention to this point seems of interest. There is a significant amount of punctate HMMR in the cytoplasm (or outside the cytoplasm?) in Figure S5; this is concerning. Please outline the cell edge for ease of visualization. What is the distribution of HMMR in a cell that has been treated with cold and/or nocodazole to disassemble the microtubules? is the signal lost?

      The reasons images of the endogenous HMMR (Figure S3) and the PLA with tubulin and HMMR antibodies (Figure 2C) differ are due to the following reasons. o PLA utilizes two primary antibodies to target two different epitopes on HMMR and βIII-tubulin. It is conceivable that not every anti-HMMR antibody has the correct orientation and/or proximity (<40 nm) toward the anti-β-III-tubulin antibody to enable DNA amplification. This results in the shortage of PLA puncta compared to immunofluorescence signals.

      • The creator of PLA has pointed out that in situ PLA is a method based upon equilibrium reactions and several enzymatic steps. Therefore, only a fraction of the inter-acting molecules is detected (Weibrecht et al., 2010).

      We have not used signal enhancing immunofluorescence staining methods [e.g., using tertiary antibodies or tyramide signal amplification (TSA)] to detect HMMR. This is mainly because HMMR signal is strong enough to be detected using standard immunofluorescence staining.

      Regarding the question “Is the distribution of HMMR similar for both dendrites and axons?” The reviewer raised a very important issue about the polarity difference of microtubules in axons (uniform) and dendrites (mixed). We were aware of such issue and very carefully examined the distribution and signal intensity of HMMR in axons vs dendrites. However, no differences were detected.

      The reviewer mentioned that “there is a significant amount of punctate HMMR in the cytoplasm (or outside the cytoplasm?) in Figure S5; this is concerning. Please outline the cell edge for ease of visualization.” Instead of outlining the cell edge, we have selected another image to facilitate the visualization of HMMR signals. There are indeed HMMR signals outside the cell. However, these outside signals are usually weaker and smaller in size compared to those inside the cell.

      After the examination of neurons expressing AcGFP-mHMMR with or without 100 nM nocodazole treatment, we did not notice any difference of AcGFP-mHMMR in distribution. We did not examine the distribution and signal intensity of the endogenous HMMR.

      (7) To determine if HMMR alters microtubule stability, the authors examine the distribution of acetylated tubulin and resistance to nocodazole-induced microtubule disassembly. In Figure 3 please show immunofluorescence images of the acetylated tubulin staining, not just the ratio images; the color is not obviously different in the various panels shown. For statistical analysis, see the comment above for Figure 1. For the nocodazole experiment, a similar change in neurite length following drug treatment was observed (Figure 3H), for the experimental and control, even though the starting length was greater in the overexpressing cells. Please consider the possibility that in both cases the microtubules are only partially resistant to nocodazole and that HMMR is not changing the fraction of microtubules that are sensitive to the drug. The cells were treated at 3 DIV; the authors note that more stable microtubules accumulate with time; how does time in culture impact stability? Often, acute treatment with a high concentration of nocodazole is used to assay microtubule stability; here the authors used a low (nM) concentration for 2 days (chronic). Why not use a higher concentration (1-10 μM) for a shorter incubation? The data show that overexpression of HMMR results in curved, buckled microtubules are these microtubules more acetylated and/or retained after nocodazole treatment?

      The reviewer suggested that we show immunofluorescence images of the acetylated tubulin staining, not just the ratio images. But we still believe showing the ratio images is the better approach. This is because the microtubules density can be different from neuron to neuron. Showing acetylated tubulin may provide a false impression when the overall microtubule density is higher or lower in a particular neuron. We realized that “16 colors” pseudo-color scheme has the cyan color at the lower intensity which can sometimes be confused with the white color at the higher intensity. Therefore, we changed the pseudocolor from “16 colors” to “fire” for Figure 3B and 3E to better visualize these images so that they appear more consistent with the quantitative data.

      The reviewer raised a very good question regarding the possibility that HMMR is not changing the fraction of microtubules that are sensitive to nocodazole. We re-conducted the same experiment and used a series of different nocodazole concentrations. While the addition of nocodazole causes a concentration-dependent reduction of total neurite length in both AcGFP and AcGFP-mHMMR expressing neurons, there are subtle differences in the susceptibility of neurite length to the concentration of nocodazole. 1) 10 nM nocodazole treatment causes a significant reduction of neurite length in AcGFP expressing neurons, but not in AcGFP-mHMMR expressing neurons. This result indicates that AcGFP-mHMMR expression increases the tolerance of neurite elongation toward 10 nM nocodazole treatment. 2) 50 nM and 100 nM nocodazole treatment exhibits no statistical significance in AcGFP expressing neurons, suggesting that 50 nM nocodazole has reached maximal effectiveness. In AcGFP-mHMMR expressing neurons, 100 nM nocodazole further reduces the neurite length compared to the 50 nM group. These results argue against the possibility that HMMR does not change the fraction of microtubules that are sensitive to nocodazole. We have revised Figure 3H accordingly.

      The reviewer asked why we did not use the acute nocodazole treatment (μM concentration) to assess the effect of Hmmr on microtubule stability. This is because we used the neurite length as an indicator for microtubule stability. That is why the chronic treatment was chosen to produce a more detectable effect on neurite length.

      The reviewer asked whether the looped microtubules caused by HMMR overexpression are more acetylated and/or nocodazole resistant. While we do not have direct evidence to answer the reviewer’s question, we can deduce the answer from our observations. We noticed that looped microtubules are only present when HMMR is highly expressed (i.e., using lipofection to introduce HMMR-expressing plasmid) but not when HMMR is mildly expressed (i.e., using electroporation to introduce HMMR-expressing plasmid). From these observations, we can conclude that HMMR is more abundantly present on looped microtubules. Since HMMR overexpression leads to higher microtubule acetylation (Figure 3E), looped microtubules which contains more HMMR are most likely to be more acetylated.

      (8) An additional measure of microtubule dynamics is to measure the growth of microtubules using a live cell marker for microtubule plus ends. Such experiments were performed, using tagged EB3. The images are rather fuzzy. Parameters of microtubule dynamics were measured at three locations - is there data that the authors can cite about any differences in dynamics in control cells at these locations? They look very similar, so it is not clear why the different locations were used. It is not possible to learn much from the kymographs which look similar for all panels; I would remove these unless they can be changed or labeled to help the reader. Data is presented for three shRNA reagents. No data are presented to document the extent to which the protein is depleted with these reagents. This should be fixed. Alternatively, an RNAi pool could be utilized. Is there a control for off-target effects? For the analysis were all the comets used to generate the average values? What about a comparison of the average of each trial - not each comet?

      In our previous publication (Chen et al., 2017), it was discovered that a significant reduction of EB3 emanation frequency can be detected at the tip and the base of the neurite but not in the middle of the neurite in TPX2-depleted neurons. The reason for this difference is due to the presence of RanGTP at the tip and the base of the neurite. Since RanGTP has also been shown to regulate the interaction between HMMR and TPX2 in the cell-free system (Scrofani et al., 2015), it is possible that the same phenomenon can be observed in HMMR-depleted neurons. This is why we examined those 3 ROIs in Figure 4.

      We notice that photobleaching causes the EB3-mCherry signal to diminish at later time points, which made it difficult to observe the differences amongst kymographs. In the revised Figure 4B and 4D, we removed the second half of all the kymographs to make the differences more obvious.

      The reviewer mentioned that there are no data documenting the extent to which the protein is depleted with the shRNAs. These data are shown in Figure S2, in which we quantified the HMMR protein level in the soma and along the neurite in neurons expressing different shRNA molecules.

      The reviewer asked whether there is a control for off-target effects. The answer is yes. We performed the rescue experiment to control for off-target effects, which is shown in Figure S1.

      We revised Figure 4 so that the dynamic properties of EB3 are quantified using the average of each experimental repetition.

      (9) In a final experiment, the authors examine the distribution of TPX2, a binding partner of HMMR. Include a standard immunofluorescence in addition to PLA to illustrate the distribution of TPX2. The quantification used was the inter puncta distance; please quantify the signal in control and treated cells.

      The reviewer asked us to include a standard immunofluorescence staining to illustrate the distribution of TPX2. We have done that in our previous publication (Chen et al., 2017) and TPX2 localizes primarily to the centrosome (https://www.nature.com/articles/srep42297/figures/2). In order to enhance the weak signal of TPX2 along the neurite, we actually needed to use PLA in that publication (https://www.nature.com/articles/srep42297/figures/3).

      Proximity ligation assay (PLA) generates fluorescent signals based on a local enzymatic reaction which catalyzes the amplification of a specific DNA sequence that can then be detected using a red fluorescent probe. Because this enzymatic reaction is not linear, the amount of amplified DNA nor the intensity of the fluorescence does not correlate with the strength of the interaction (Soderberg et al., 2006). As a result, quantification of PLA is typically done by counting the number of fluorescent puncta per unit area or by calculating the area containing fluorescent signal (not signal intensity) per unit area in the case that PLA signals are too strong and coalesced. That is why our quantification is based on the distance between PLA fluorescent puncta, not the fluorescent signal intensity.

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      Yalgin, C., S. Ebrahimi, C. Delandre, L.F. Yoong, S. Akimoto, H. Tran, R. Amikura, R. Spokony, B. Torben-Nielsen, K.P. White, and A.W. Moore. 2015. Centrosomin represses dendrite branching by orienting microtubule nucleation. Nat. Neurosci. 18:1437-1445.

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      Reply to the reviewers

      We thank the reviewers for their time and effort to improve and clarify our manuscript. We now have addressed the reviewers’ suggestions in full on a point-by-point basis. Revisions in the manuscript file are highlighted in yellow.

      Reviewer #1 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      Supernumerary centrosomes are observed in the majority of human tumors. In cells they induce abnormal mitosis leading to chromosome missegregation and aneuploidy. In animal models it is demonstrated that extra centrosomes are sufficient to drive tumor formation. Previous work studying the impact of centrosome amplification on tumor formation in vivo used Plk4 overexpression to drive the formation of supernumerary centrosomes. In this manuscript Moussa and co-workers from the Krämer group developed a mouse model in which centrosome amplification is triggered by the overexpression of the structural centrosomal protein STIL rather than the kinase Plk4 in order to a) assess the potential for centrosome amplification induced by STIL overexpression to drive tumor formation and b) to rule out any potential non-centrosomal related effects of the kinase Plk4 on tumor formation.* The authors show that STIL ovexrexpression in cells (MEFs) drives centrosome amplification and aberrant mitosis (Fig. 1), leading to chromosome missegregation and aneuploidy (Fig. 2). They also show that STIL overexpression is linked to reduced cellular proliferation and apoptosis (Fig 3). The authors then present in vivo experiments performed in mice. They observed that STIL expression causes embryonic lethality, microcephaly and a reduced lifespan (Fig 4). Despite increased STIL mRNA levels they do not detect elevated STIL protein levels in adult tissues except for the spleen. They do not detect significant increase of centrosome amplification or aneuploidy in animal tissues (Fig 4) and they conclude of a STIL translational shut down in most adult tissues. The authors then assess the impact of STIL overexpression on tumor formation. They observed a reduced spontaneous tumor formation despite elevated STIL mRNA levels in both healthy and tumor (lymphomas) tissues of mice overexpressing STIL. They don't detect increased centrosome amplification and aneuploidy in lymphomas from STIL overexpressing mice compared to lymphomas naturally occurring in control animals (Fig 5). Finally, they found that STIL overexpression suppresses chemical skin carcinogenesis using a combination of tamoxifen induction of STIL in the skin with DMBA/TPA carcinogenic treatment (Fig 7). They link this effect to an increased number of centriole and a reduction in cycling cells number in the skin of STIL overexpressing mice (Fig 6).

      The manuscript is written in a clear manner. The experimental approaches are properly designed and the experimental methods are described in sufficient details. Most of the experimental data present a good number of replicates. The figures are generally well assembled despite some errors in a few panels/legends (see major and minor points). Most of the conclusions are supported by the experimental data. However, a few specific points or interpretations are not convincingly supported by the experimental data (see major points) and will need to be revised and/or reformulated.

      Major points:

      1. Figures 1D and F show that MEFs hemizygous (CMV-STIL+/-) and homozygous (CMV-STIL+/+) for STIL present similar level of centrosome amplification and aberrant mitosis. Although, despite these similarities the homozygous MEFs display about two time more micronuclei and chromosomes aberrations (Fig. 2). The authors explain this discrepancy by the fact that MEFs homozygous for STIL have reduced proliferation and an increased propension to stay in interphase compared to hemizygous MEFs (Fig. 3). I don't understand why an interphase arrest would lead to a higher chromosomal instability resulting in higher micronuclei formation and abnormal karyotypes since those phenotypes are the consequences of abnormal mitosis occurring in cycling cells. I would rather argue that Homozygous MEFs are more prone to cell cycle arrest because of mitotic errors, but those mitotic errors cannot be explained by the centrosome status or the mitotic figures quantified in homozygous MEFs. Therefore, the authors explanation written as: "Graded inhibition of proliferation and accumulation of cells in interphase explains why CMV-STIL+/- and CMV-STIL+/+ MEFs contain increasing frequencies of micronuclei and aberrant karyotypes (Fig. 2) despite similar levels of supernumerary centrosomes" is not right for me. The authors should reformulate this section of the manuscript so their conclusion fit their data. The differences between hemi and homozygotes MEFs regarding chromosome stability could come from mitotic errors they did not spot using fixed immunofluorescence images of mitotic MEFs. Thus, as an optional additional experiment, analyzing live mitosis of MEFs could potentially help reconciliate results from mitotic figures and from karyotypes.*

      We basically agree with the reviewer and have therefore reanalyzed our data on centriole numbers in a time-dependent manner. As already shown in Figure 3L of the initial manuscript version, the number of both CMV-STIL+/- and CMV-STIL+/+ MEFs with supernumerary centrioles increases with passaging from passage 3 (p3) to p6. Also, in this experiment amplified centrioles were more frequent in CMV-STIL+/+ compared to CMV-STIL+/- MEFs in both passages (p3 and p6) analyzed. We have therefore now pooled the data and substituted the former Figure panel 1D by these combined results. As the results of Figure 1F and especially those for the CMV-STIL+/+ MEFs had to rely on very low mitotic figure counts, because these cells only very rarely divide (as shown in Figure 3A; mitosis frequency of CMV-STIL+/+ MEFs 0.12%), we have now deleted Figure panel 1F from the manuscript. For the same reason - an extremely low proliferation and division rate of especially CMV-STIL+/+ MEFs - live cell imaging to detect different types of mitotic errors, is unfortunately not feasible.

      Figure 5 panel F does not support the claim of the main text and does not match the legend of the figure: In the text the authors wrote: "Ki67 immunostaining revealed that, ..., proliferation rates were elevated independent from lymphoma genotypes". If the authors claim and increased cell proliferation in lymphoma compared to lymph nodes, which is expected, they should show the data for the lymph node in the graph. In addition, in the legend the authors mentioned a "Percentage of Ki67-positive cells in healthy spleens and lymphomas from mice with the indicated genotypes." Since there are three genotypes and two tissue types but the figure presents a graph with only three bars did the Spleen and lymphoma data were combined? Or did some data were not inserted in the graph? Thus, since the data does not support the claim for an increased cell proliferation in lymphoma, the authors explanation for the increased protein level observed in these lymphomas (Fig. 5 panel E) is not supported. Therefore, the authors need to present the correct data in the figure or to change their conclusion. They will also need to correct the figure legend and to add a panel with images illustrating the Ki67 labelling in the different tissues in the figure.

      We apologize for this mistake and have corrected the legend to Figure panel 5F, which now reads: “Percentage of Ki67-positive cells in two B6-STIL, two CMV-STIL+/- and one CMV-STIL+/+ lymphoma. For comparison, frequencies of Ki67-positive cells in healthy lymph nodes from B6-STIL mice are displayed. Data are means ± SEM from at least two independent immunostainings per lymphoma or healthy lymph node. P-values were calculated using the one-way ANOVA with post-hoc Tukey test for multiple comparison. For space reasons, only statistically significant differences are displayed”.

         We agree with the reviewer that for comparison Ki67 immunostainings of healthy lymph node tissue was missing in the graph and have therefore added this information to the figure panel, which shows increased proliferation of lymphoma compared to normal lymph node cells. Also, a panel with images illustrating Ki67 labelling in healthy lymph node and lymphomas from different genotypes has been added to the figure (panel 5G).
      
      • *

      __Minor points:____* * __1. In the introduction, page 4 paragraph 3, the authors wrote: "To assess the impact of centrosome amplification on CIN, senescence, lifespan and tumor formation in vivo without interfering with extracentrosomal traits,..." they need to clarify what they meant by extracentrosomal traits.

      As requested by the reviewer we have modified the respective sentence, which now reads: “To assess the impact of centrosome amplification on CIN, senescence, lifespan and tumor formation in vivo with an orthologous approach without interfering with PLK4, we generated transgenic mouse models overexpressing the structural centrosome protein STIL, …”.

      • *

      In the 1st paragraph of the results, page 4, the authors wrote: "leads to ubiquitous transgene expression at levels similar to the CAG promoter used in most..." but there is no link to a figure presenting the mRNA levels in those mice (potentially Fig. 4F and Fig. S6). Also, in the references cited for comparison, to my knowledge, there was no measurement of Plk4 mRNA levels in tissues in the work from Marthiens and colleagues, in this work the authors assess the expression of the Plk4 transgene by investigating the presence of the protein.

      To show STIL transgene expression levels in our system, we have now linked Figure panels 1A (STIL mRNA expression in MEFs), 1B (STIL protein expression in MEFs) and Supplemental Fig. S2 (Supplemental Fig. S6 of the previous manuscript version showing STIL mRNA levels in healthy mouse tissues) to this statement as suggested. In the references now cited for comparison (Kulukian et al. 2015; Vitre et al. 2015; Sercin et al. 2016) PLK4 transgene mRNA (Kulukian et al. 2015; Sercin et al. 2016) and protein levels (Vitre et al. 2015) are shown.

      • *

      Page 5 second line the authors wrote: "Despite the graded increase in Plk4 expression, CMV-STIL+/- and, CMV-STIL+/+ MEFs exhibited a similar increase in supernumerary centrioles". The authors must meant increase in STIL expression or do they have data not shown about an increase of Plk4 expression? Then they explain this absence of difference in supernumerary centriole by the ability of "excess Plk4" to access the centrosome, again they probably meant STIL. Regarding this point and related to Major Point 1 it might be worth for the authors to quantify actual extra centrosomes in mitosis rather than cells with more than 4 centrioles in interphase (as in Fig. 1C, D). They might find differences in the number of centrosomes in hemizygous versus homozygous MEFs.

      We indeed meant STIL instead of PLK4 and have corrected the mistake. As described in our response to the reviewer’s major point 1 we have now reanalyzed our data on centriole numbers in a time-dependent manner. As already shown in Figure 3L of the initial manuscript version, the frequency of both CMV-STIL+/- and CMV-STIL+/+ MEFs with supernumerary centrioles increases with passaging from passage 3 (p3) to p6. Also, in this experiment amplified centrioles were more frequent in CMV-STIL+/+ compared to CMV-STIL+/- MEFs in both passages (p3 and p6) analyzed. We have therefore now pooled and substituted the former Figure panel 1D by these combined results.

      Page 5, in the first paragraph the authors mention "the rate of respective mitotic aberrations..." without defining the mitotic aberrations. For instance, in panel 1E a metaphase with 4 centrosomes is shown for CMV-STIL+/- while an anaphase with an unknown number of clustered centrosomes is presented for CMV-STIL+/+. Classifying the different types of aberrant mitotic figures (i.e: multipolar anaphases versus bipolar with clustered centrosomes) might help the authors identify differences between hemi and homozygous MEFS that may explain the differences in the proportions of chromosomes aberrations they present in Fig. 2.

      As described in our response to the reviewer’s major point 1 the number of mitotic figures that could be analyzed was extremely low, especially for CMV-STIL+/+ MEFs, which do only rarely divide (mitosis frequency of CMV-STIL+/+ MEFs 0.12%). Therefore, although certainly of value, classification of different types of mitotic aberrations is unfortunately not feasible.

      • *

      In Fig 4A the number of mice analyzed should be mentioned.

      After mating of B6-STIL transgenic animals with CMV-CRE mice and further breeding of successive generations, we obtained a total of 198 pups over four generations, 162 of which were born alive: 116 B6-STIL wildtype animals, 27 CMV-STIL+/- and 19 CMV-STIL-/- mice. We have now added these numbers to the figure legend.

      • *

      In Fig. 5E, the band corresponding to STIL protein is difficult to visualize in the B6-STIL control, it is therefore difficult to compare its level to the level of STIL protein in the CMV-STIL hemizygotes and homozygotes. If possible, it would improve the manuscript to present a blot with clearer results.

      We have tried to improve the quality by repeating the Western blot. Due to the small size of healthy mouse lymph nodes, resulting in low protein yields, only lysates from lymphomas were left, and these were of poor quality with a high lipid content. We therefore tried to delipidate the lymphoma lysates and hope that the result of the new blot is now somewhat clearer. Due to the low lymphoma frequency in CMV-STIL hemizygotes and homozygotes (only 2 in each case) we were unfortunately not able to prepare fresh lysates.

      Related to Figure 6B the authors wrote a "5 to 10 fold-increased expression..." in the text while panel 6B show a maximum of 8 fold increase.

      The respective statement has been rephrased according to the reviewer´s suggestion.

      __Reviewer #1 (Significance (Required)): ______ *Centrosome amplification is a demonstrated cause of genomic instability and tumor development as shown in multiple previous work performed in mice. In this work, Moussa and co-workers developed a mouse model that does not depends on Plk4 to trigger centrosome amplification but which depends on the overexpression of the centrosome structural protein STIL. This effort is welcome as previous works could not formally rule out potential role of Plk4, not related to its centrosome duplication function, on tumor formation. The authors show that their system is functional in MEFs where STIL overexpression drives centrosome amplification and aneuploidy. Unfortunately, in vivo, despite elevated level of STIL mRNA they do not detect centrosome amplification in tissues and consequently, they do not observe an increase rate of aneuploidy and tumor formation. This result is not surprising as previous studies using strong promoters (comparable to the one used to drive STIL expression in this study) to induce Plk4 overexpression led to similar results, i.e. an absence of centrosome amplification in adult tissues and no effects on tumor formation. Therefore, the results and the concepts proposed in this work are not novel but they reinforce previous studies showing the deleterious effect of high level of centrosome amplification on cells. This work also confirms that strong mechanisms, here the authors propose a translational shut-down, are preventing the apparition or the persistence of high level of centrosome amplification in animal tissues. By complementing existing results with the use of an alternate experimental approach this study will be of interest for the scientific community working on the basic biological mechanisms driving aneuploidy and tumor development.*

      __Reviewer #2 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):______ *In this manuscript, Moussa et al. describe the effects of over-expressing the centriole duplication factor STIL in whole mice and with expression restricted to the skin. They find that over expression of STIL, similar to that of PLK4, induces centriole overduplication, abnormal mitoses, and genetic instability leading to cell arrest. Additionally, over-expressing STIL results in microcephaly, perinatal lethality and a shortened lifespan. In addition, they do not find that expression of the p53 R127H mutant alleviates the cell growth defect. Moreover, overexpression of STIL does not lead to increased general tumour formation and suppresses tumour formation in an induced skin tumour model.

      Although this is an interesting manuscript, the authors need address a number of issues before this manuscript can be recommend the manuscript for publication. Importantly, the manuscript lacks statistical analyses to support some of their conclusions, some figures should be quantified, and controls are missing in some cases. *

      __Major Issues____* * __1. Many of the figure panels lack appropriate statistical analyses to support the conclusions (see details below). This needs to be rectified.

      In view of the limited number of mice (due to an increased frequency of pups that died around birth) and the resulting impossibility of performing several (>3) independent experiments in many cases, we have decided to limit the statistics in the main text to a descriptive analysis without mentioning inferences (p-values). Nevertheless, we have now included the missing statistical analyses in the figure panels and/or legends. However, the reported p-values (*p≤0.05, **p≤0.01, ***p≤0.001; ns, not significant) should be interpreted as descriptive rather than confirmatory values.

      • *

      The authors suggest that the interpretation of PLK4 over-expression studies are hampered by the possibility of centriole/centrosome independent PLK4 roles and that STIL overexpression circumvents some of these issues. Although orthologous approaches to problems are always desired, STIL itself has also been implicated in other cellular processes, such as the Sonic hedgehog pathway (Carr AL, 2014) and in cell motility (Liu Y, 2020). In addition, the data presented in the manuscript are suggestive of a STIL function in the mouse that is independent of centriole number. The authors demonstrate that the amount of centriole over-duplication in MEFs containing a single copy of the STIL over-expression locus is equivalent to that of MEFs carrying two copies. However, in most other assays, the homozygous lines display more severe phenotypes, suggesting that STIL might have a function outside centriole duplication. The authors need to discuss this further in a revised manuscript.

      As described in our response to major point 1 and minor point 3 of reviewer 1 we have now reanalyzed our data on centriole numbers in a time-dependent manner. As already shown in Figure 3L of the initial manuscript version, the number of both CMV-STIL+/- and CMV-STIL+/+ MEFs with supernumerary centrioles increases with passaging from passage 3 (p3) to p6. Also, in this experiment amplified centrioles were more frequent in CMV-STIL+/+ compared to CMV-STIL+/- MEFs in both passages (p3 and p6) analyzed. We have therefore now pooled the data and substituted the former Figure panel 1D by these combined results, which show that, similar to other models, also regarding STIL overexpression the homozygous line displays a more severe phenotype, which does therefore per se not argue for a STIL function outside the centrosome. However, as a few recent studies indeed suggest additional roles of STIL, we have amended the respective passages in the revised version of the manuscript accordingly.

      • *

      Why did the authors use the p53 R127H mutant instead of a p53 knockout or null allele system? The R127H mutant has a gain-of-function phenotype and cells expressing this mutant display different phenotypes than a p53 null. The primary conclusion in one of the references cited by the authors (Caulin C, 2007) is that p53R127H is a gain-of-function mutant and behaves distinct from loss-of-function p53 mutations, such as deletions using floxed alleles. Throughout the manuscript, the authors use terms that suggest the R127H allele is equivalent to a loss of function mutant. Given that supernumerary centriole growth arrest is universally suppressed by inactivation of p53 it is somewhat surprising that this pathway is not active in response to STIL over-expression. The authors should confirm this key conclusion by depleting p53 in MEFs using RNAi, or by using mice where complete inactivation of p53 can be achieved.

      We agree with the reviewer that the p53-R172H mutant version of p53 is not equivalent to a p53 knockout. We have therefore and as suggested by reviewer 3 as well (see also our response to point 3 of reviewer 3) corrected the wording and have substituted “absence of p53” by “interference with p53 function” where appropriate. In addition, we now have added data to the manuscript, which show that neither p53 expression nor p53-S18 phosphorylation becomes induced during prolonged cultivation and passaging of CMV-STIL transgenic MEFs (see Figure 3B of the revised manuscript). Importantly, this finding is in line with a recent report showing that PLK4-induced extra centrosomes may not rely on p53 for tumor suppression and cell death induction (Braun et al.: Extra centrosomes delay DNA damage-driven tumorigenesis. Sci. Adv. 10: eadk0564, 2024). Similarly, it has been recently shown that centrosome amplification increases apoptosis independently of p53 in PLK4-overexpressing cells treated with DNA-damaging agents (Edwards et al.: Centrosome amplification primes for apoptosis and favors the response to chemotherapy in ovarian cancer beyond multipolar divisions. bioRxiv 2023.07.28.550973, 2023). Therefore, these findings and references have now been added to results and discussion sections of the revised manuscript.

         A plethora of p53-related findings in mouse models, including the majority of results on PLK4-induced tumor formation in mice, is based on p53 knockouts, a situation that is only rarely found in human cancers. In contrast, the p53-R172H missense mutation in mice corresponds to the p53-R175H mutation in human tumors, which has the highest occurrence in diverse human cancer types among all p53 hotspot mutations, and results in a transcriptionally inactive protein that accumulates in cells, similar to the majority of naturally occurring versions of mutant p53 (Yao et al.: Protein-level mutant p53 reporters identify druggable rare precancerous clones in noncancerous tissues. Nat Cancer 4: 1176-1192, 2023; Chiang et al.: The function of mutant p53-R175H in cancer. Cancers 13: 4088, 2021). We therefore believe that it more faithfully recapitulates the situation in p53-mutant tumors than a p53 knockout.
      
         Although basically an important and valid experiment, depleting p53 in STIL-transgenic MEFs using RNAi is not easily done as (i) transfection of MEFs per se is difficult and (ii) STIL-overexpressing MEFs do only slowly proliferate and are prone to senescence and apoptosis (see Figure 3), all phenotypes which are even further exacerbated after transfection. Generation of STIL-transgenic mice with complete inactivation of p53 on the other hand is an extremely time-consuming endeavor that would lead to a significant delay of publication of our results. Given that currently similar data are published by other groups (Braun et al.: Extra centrosomes delay DNA damage-driven tumorigenesis. Sci. Adv. 10: eadk0564, 2024; Edwards et al.: Centrosome amplification primes for apoptosis and favors the response to chemotherapy in ovarian cancer beyond multipolar divisions. *bioRxiv* 2023.07.28.550973, 2023), we do not think that this would be appropriate.
      

      __Minor Issues and details____* * __Figure 1 1. Panel E. It is unclear what the authors are calling an 'aberrant mitosis'. Typically an aberrant mitosis refers to chromosomal abnormalities such as multipolar spindles, anaphase bridges or micronuclei (which they quantify in Figure 2). The aberrant mitotic figures presented in Figure 1E show a clustered metaphase with 4 centrosomes (2 per pole; 2 centrioles per centrosome) for CMV-STIL+/- MEFs and a clustered telophase with 2 centrosomes (1 per pole; 5 centrioles per centrosome) for CMV-STIL+/+ MEFs. This is now specified in detail in the legend to Figure 1E.

      • *

      Panel E. Please include images representing a normal mitosis from control cells derived from B6-STIL mice.

      As suggested, we have now included a representative image of a normal mitosis from B6-STIL control mice.

      Figure 2____ 1. Panels B, E and F. Statistical significance is not indicated between B6-STIL and CMV-STIL+/- or CMV-STIL+/- and CMV-STIL+/+. The authors indicated a 'graded' phenotype which is qualitatively apparent, but should be backed by statistical analysis.

      We have now included a statistical analysis. However, and as already described in our answer to major issue 1 of this reviewer, the reported p-values should be interpreted as descriptive rather than confirmatory values due to the limited number of independent experiments.

      • *

      Can the authors indicate how they scored a tetraploid cell? Some of the cells are 100% tetraploid while others contain other aberrations.

      According to the International System for Human Cytogenomic Nomenclature (ISCN) version from 2020, polyploidy is defined by the modal numbers of chromosomes in the karyotype. A number of 81-103 chromosomes is called near-tetraploid, at which a hypotetraploidy (81-91 chromosomes) is distinguished from a hypertetraploidy (93-103 chromosomes) (An International System for Human Cytogenomic Nomenclature, Karger (2020), Eds.: McGowan-Jordan, Hastings, Moore). For mouse karyotypes respective numbers were recalculated on the basis of a diploid chromosome content of 40 instead of 46 chromosomes. To be strictly in accordance with this nomenclature, we have exchanged the term "tetraploid" by "near-tetraploid".

      __ Is the height of the rows in Panel D significant? What are the solid black rows?______ We thank the reviewer for this comment/observation. We have now increased the resolution of this part of the figure. Unfortunately, the resolution had deteriorated so much when the pdf file was created that individual lines were no longer recognizable. The height of the lines should be identical, as single lines correspond to the karyotypes of each metaphase cell analyzed, while chromosomes are plotted as columns. The solid black lines separate independently established MEF lines with the indicated STIL genotypes from each other. At least 20 metaphase cells per MEF line were analyzed. We have now explained these points in the figure legend.

      Figure 3____ 1. Panels C, F, G, and K require statistical analyses.

      We have now included the appropriate statistical analyses in the figure panels and/or legends. However, the reported p-values should be interpreted as descriptive rather than confirmatory values due to the limited number of independent experiments.

      • *

      Panel D should be quantified.

      We have now included a quantification of the protein bands in panels B, E (former panel D), and K of the revised manuscript and explained the quantification procedure in detail in the methods section.

      Panel E. mRNA expression is quantified in RPKM here, while GeTMM is used in Figures 3I and Supplementary Figures S2 and S6. Is there a reason this panel uses a different method? RPKM can be used for intra-sample comparisons, but is not ideal for comparison among different samples.

      We now uniformly quantify mRNA expression in GeTMM in all figures of the revised manuscript version as requested.

      • *

      Panel G. Can the authors show the original FACS profiles in Supplementary material?

      As requested, we have now included representative examples of original FACS profiles from the cell cycle analyses into Supplemental Figure S5.

      • *

      Panel H. Requires molecular weight markers

      Molecular weight markers for the DNA ladder (L) with the corresponding bp size have now been included into the Figure panel (formerly 3H, 3I in the revised version of the manuscript).

      • *

      __ Panel J. Missing B6-STIL control. Quantify Western blots.______ We have now included an immunoblot showing STIL protein expression levels in passage p1-p5 of B6-STIL control MEFs as well as a quantification of the protein bands into the Figure panel (formerly 3J, 3K in the revised version of the manuscript). The quantification procedure has been explained in detail in the methods section of the revised manuscript version.

      Figure 4____ 1. The authors mention 'Simultaneously, we found an increased frequency of pups that died around birth.' Can the data for this be included?

      After mating B6-STIL transgenic animals with CMV-CRE mice and further breeding of successive generations, we obtained a total of 198 pups over four generations, of which 162 were born alive: 116 B6-STIL wildtype animals, 27 CMV-STIL+/- and 19 CMV-STIL+/+ mice. We have now added these numbers to the figure legend. Stillbirths increased over the generations: while in the first generation after mating B6-STIL animals with CMV-CRE mice all pups (B6-STIL wildtype animals and STIL heterozygotes) were born alive, in the fourth generation (from mating CMV-STIL transgenic mice with each other) 54% of the pups were stillborn. We have now included this observation into the main text to further emphasize the impact of STIL overexpression on perinatal lethality.

      Panels B and D. Please include the data for CMV-STIL+/-.

      We now have included a representative H&E-stained histological section of a CMV-STIL+/- mouse brain into Figure panel 4D as suggested by the reviewer. For space reasons we have not added an extra image of a CMV-STIL+/- total brain into Figure panel 4B, as this does not add novel information.

      Panels C, F and K require statistics.

      As requested, we have now included the appropriate statistical analysis in the figure panels and/or legends. However, the reported p-values should be interpreted as descriptive rather than confirmatory values due to the limited number of independent experiments.

      • *

      Panel F. Include statistical analysis.

      We have now included the appropriate statistical analysis in the figure panels and/or legends. However, the reported p-values should be interpreted as descriptive rather than confirmatory values due to the limited number of independent experiments.

      • *

      Panel G/H. The levels of STIL in the CMV-STIL+/+ spleen are higher than the other samples, yet there is no concomitant increase in centriole overduplication. Can the authors comment on this?

      Interestingly, we indeed found a higher STIL protein expression level in spleen tissue from CMV-STIL+/+ as compared to B6-STIL control and CMV-STIL+/- mice. Nevertheless, the amount of splenocytes with supernumerary centrioles was only marginally increased in these animals. A similar finding has recently been described for B lymphocytes with upregulated PLK4 expression after PLK4 transgene induction by exposure to doxycycline in vivo (Braun et al.: Extra centrosomes delay DNA damage-driven tumorigenesis. Sci. Adv. 10: eadk0564, 2024). Here, the lack of B cells with supernumerary centrioles despite increased PLK4 levels was explained by increased apoptosis and thereby selection against and rapid loss of PLK4-overexpressing cells. In line, we show that CMV-STIL+/+ MEFs have increased rates of senescence and apoptosis (Fig. 4).

      • *

      __ Panel J. The font within the plots is difficult to read. ______ We thank the reviewer for this comment/observation. We have now increased the resolution of this figure panel, and the font is now outside of the plots.

      Figure 5____** s should be interpreted as descriptive rather than confirmatory values due to the limited number of independent experiments. No further statistical analysis can be done for panel D as in some cases (lymph node from B6-STIL mouse, lymphoma from CMV-STIL+/+ mouse) only one measurement exists.

      Panel F. The legend indicates that these data are from spleens and lymphomas. Is this correct? Would the results from non-lymphoma cells in the spleen mask the results from lymphoma cells?

      We apologize for this mistake and have corrected the legend to Figure panel 5F, which now reads: “Percentage of Ki67-positive cells in two B6-STIL, two CMV-STIL+/- and one CMV-STIL+/+ lymphoma. For comparison, frequencies of Ki67-positive cells in healthy lymph nodes from B6-STIL mice are displayed. Data are means ± SEM from at least two independent immunostainings per lymphoma or healthy lymph node. P-values were calculated using the one-way ANOVA with post-hoc Tukey test for multiple comparison. For space reasons, only statistically significant differences are displayed”.

      • *

      Panel F. The authors indicate that 'In line, assessment of lymphomas from B6-STIL control, CMV-STIL+/- and CMV-STIL+/+ mice by Ki67 immunostaining revealed that, corresponding to STIL protein levels, proliferation rates were elevated independent from lymphoma genotypes'. However, Ki67 levels, the marker for proliferation actually decreased in these samples indicating less proliferative cells. This needs to be clarified since the data shown appears to show the opposite of what is stated in the mansucript....

      As noticed by the reviewer further below, differences in the percentages of Ki67-positive, proliferating cells between lymphomas from B6-STIL, CMV-STIL+/- and CMV-STIL+/+ mice were statistically not significant. However, we have now for comparison added the results of Ki67 immunostaining of healthy lymph node tissue to Figure panel 5F, which show increased proliferation of lymphoma compared to normal lymph node cells. Also, a panel with images illustrating Ki67 labelling in healthy lymph node and lymphomas from different genotypes has been added to the figure (panel 5G). These data reveal that, independent from the genotype, proliferation rates of lymphoma cells are increased as compared to healthy lymph nodes, thereby further corroborating our assumption that STIL protein levels in lymphomas are increased as a consequence of their increased proliferation and independent from STIL transgene expression.

      • *

      Corresponding to point 3 above, the authors suggest that 'STIL protein expression is a consequence of increased lymphoma cell proliferation.' This hypothesis cannot explain STIL protein levels if proliferation has actually decreased.

      Please see our response to point 3 above.

      • *

      Corresponding to point 3 and 4 above, the actual data is marked as non-significant indicating there is actually no proliferative difference among the samples.

      This is correct. See also our comments to point 3 and 4 above.

      __ Panel 5I. The authors state that 'On the other hand, overall levels of chromosomal copy number aberrations were higher in lymphomas (mean gains + losses: 225.2 Å} 173.7 Mb) as compared to healthy tissues (mean gains + losses: 87.3 Å} 127.5 Mb; p=0.06), irrespective of their STIL transgene status (Fig. 4J; Fig. 5I), although the difference did not quite reach statistical significance.' The authors need to soften this statement since statistically, the samples are not different. For example, 'On the other hand, overall levels of chromosomal copy number aberrations appeared to trend higher in lymphomas as compared to healthy tissues irrespective of their STIL transgene status, although the difference did not quite reach statistical significance.'______ The statement was rephrased according to the reviewer´s suggestion.

      Figure 6____ 1. Panels A, B, and C require statistical analysis.

      We have now included the appropriate statistical analyses into panels A, B, and C in the figure panels and/or legends. However, the reported p-values should be interpreted as descriptive rather than confirmatory values due to the limited number of independent experiments.

      • *

      The figure legend references to panels C and D appear to be swapped.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment/observation. We have corrected this mistake.

      Panel F. Indicate that the samples are not significantly different.

      We have now included the appropriate statistical analysis including the indication that the samples are not statistically significantly different.

      • *

      __ Corresponding to point 3, the authors indicate that 'the proportion of Ki67-positive cycling cells was lower in tamoxifen-treated... ... although the difference did not quite reach statistical significance.' The authors need to soften this statement to reflect that the samples are not statistically different (i.e. 'appeared lower' or similar).______ The statement was rephrased according to the reviewer´s suggestion.

      __Figure 6 and 7 _ Do you have data for B6-STIL animals treated with and without tamoxifen? The experiments as shown demonstrate the differences between control and tamoxifen-treated animals of the same genotype, but it is unclear if any of these effects are due to the underlying genotypes or from tamoxifen itself. ___ The experiments presented in Figures 6 and 7 have not been performed in B6-STIL control mice with and without tamoxifen treatment.

      Supplemental Figure 1____ 1. Please include molecular weight marker for this and all panels showing PCR products.

      Molecular weight markers for the DNA ladder (L) with the corresponding bp size have now been included into all Figure panels showing PCR products as requested.

      The B6-STIL and CMV-STIL+/- lines should contain a larger MW band corresponding to the STIL-F and STIL-R PCR product. Please show if possible.

      We thank the reviewer for the important remark. We agree that there should be a large PCR product band at around 3000 bp containing the bacterial neomycin phosphotransferase gene (TK-neo-pA) and the STOP cassette in the B6-STIL control mice/MEFs, and two PCR product bands (large: 3000 bp, small: 410 bp) in the heterozygous CMV-STIL+/-mice/MEFs. When we began with genotyping, we did indeed observe both bands depending on the STIL background (see figure below). However, the band intensity of the larger PCR product was relatively weak (arrowheads) compared to the smaller PCR product, and its visibility was dependent on genomic DNA input and PCR efficiency. During the PCR optimization process, the PCR conditions were changed in such a way that the yield of the small band were increased despite small input amounts of genomic DNA, but at the expense of the large PCR product band (arrows). At the end of the optimization process the larger PCR product had almost disappeared, making the discrimination between heterozygous CMV-STIL+/- and homozygous CMV-STIL-/- DNA difficult. Therefore, we decided to additionally check for STOP cassette excision in a second PCR approach in parallel. In the genotyping results shown in Supplemental Figure S1B, which have been produced after PCR optimization, no larger STIL PCR product band was visible anymore.

      __Supplemental Figure 6 _ 1. The 'Spleen' sample is missing the B6-STIL control data. 'Liver' is missing CMV-STIL+/+. Please include or indicate why they are missing. The plot order of the samples differs for 'Liver' (red, black) compared to the others (black, red, blue). Indicate statistical significances. ___ We apologize for this mistake, have corrected the Figure (formerly Supplemental Figure S6, S2 in the revised version of the manuscript), and have included the missing spleen and liver samples.

      • *

      General issues ____ 1. The materials and methods indicate that HPRT and PIPB were used as reference genes, but only HPRT is referred to in the qPCR figure legend.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment/observation. As generally recommended (Vandesomele et al., Genome Biol 3(7): research0034.1-research0034.11, 2002; Kozer and Rapacz, J Appl Genet 54(4): 391-406, 2013) we used both reference genes for accurate normalization of qPCR in all experiments. We have now corrected this mistake in the figure legend.

      • *

      Figure panels 1F and 3C display 95% confidence intervals while others use SEM. Is there a reason for this?

      In the two referenced figures (former Figure 1F has been deleted from the manuscript, see also our comment to point 1 of reviewer #1 for reasons; Figure 3C of the former manuscript is now Figure 3D in the revised manuscript version) the endpoint variable was defined by whether individual cells in a single experiment showed a certain property or not (binary variables). By definition, these kinds of variables show a nonsymmetric error structure, which cannot be expressed properly by a single value such as the standard error (SEM), but can be covered correctly by a confidence interval. For the same reason, Fisher’s exact tests were employed to obtain p-values in these situations. In the other figures, the relevant endpoint variables were roughly normally distributed, either directly, or due to them being an average of many values. In this case, a symmetric SEM was thus considered sufficient, and t-tests were used for p-values. To make this clear in the figures, we used different display options to distinguish between error bars showing SEM or 95% CI.

      __Reviewer #2 (Significance (Required)): ______ *In this manuscript, Moussa et al. describe the effects of over-expressing the centriole duplication factor STIL in whole mice and with expression restricted to the skin. They find that over expression of STIL, similar to that of PLK4, induces centriole overduplication, abnormal mitoses, and genetic instability leading to cell arrest. Additionally, over-expressing STIL results in microcephaly, perinatal lethality and a shortened lifespan. In addition, they do not find that expression of the p53 R127H mutant alleviates the cell growth defect. Moreover, overexpression of STIL does not lead to increased general tumour formation and suppresses tumour formation in an induced skin tumour model. Although this is an interesting manuscript, the authors need address a number of issues before this manuscript can be recommend the manuscript for publication. Importantly, the manuscript lacks statistical analyses to support some of their conclusions, some figures should be quantified, and controls are missing in some cases. *

      __Reviewer #3 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)): ______ Previously it has been proposed that supernumerary centrioles play important deleterious effects in vivo including increased tumorigenesis. However, the work was inconclusive because the way of inducing centriole amplification via the PLK4 kinase could have induced other effects besides supernumerary centrioles. To resolve this question, the authors generated a mouse model of centrosome amplification, in which the structural centriole protein STIL is overexpressed. Using this mouse model in vivo along with mutant mouse embryonic feeder (MEF) lines in vivo, the authors test out the role of centrosome amplification in vivo in animal development, lifespan, and tumorigenesis. They report both embryonic lethality, defects in brain development, and shortened life span in these mice. They also find that skin tumorigenesis is reduced in the mutant mice, and demonstrates that the STIL overexpression effects are not perturbed in a dominant negative p53 model. The authors demonstrate that STIL overexpression causes centrosome amplification accompanied by aneuploidy, which however is highly deleterious for cell fitness even in the absence of p53. Clearly, tissue corrective mechanisms lead to the elimination of cells with extra centrosomes and/or aneuploidy by impaired proliferation, senescence, and apoptosis. This finding is interesting and significant and seems worthy of dissemination to the broader readership.

      This study is thorough and well executed and there is a significant body of work that leads to solid conclusions. The data is convincing, and the figure are well presented. It was refreshing to read this paper, as it was not so cluttered with data that the message gets murky, yet the data was clearly very substantial. The text is clear and easy to follow.


      There really are only minor aspects of this paper that need correction, in my opinion. The text should be thoroughly checked for typos, few extra redundant words here and there, and a couple of confusing sentences.______ As suggested by the reviewer we have rechecked the manuscript for typos, redundancies, and confusing sentences and corrected where necessary and appropriate. __* *

      For example, the last sentence in abstract is confusing 'These results suggest that supernumerary centrosomes... [result in]... tumor formation' because it should read 'reduced tumor formation' or 'impairs tumorigenesis' or otherwise be written more clearly because it seems to convey the opposite message the way it is right now. ______ We thank the reviewer for this comment and have corrected the sentence, which now reads: “These results suggest that supernumerary centrosomes impair proliferation in vitro as well as in vivo, resulting in reduced lifespan and delayed spontaneous as well as carcinogen-induced tumor formation”. The p53 dominant negative mutant is not exactly a KO so it is not fair to say "in the absence of p53"; the verbiage should be corrected and checked throughout the paper - perhaps 'interfering with p53 normal function' is more appropriate.__ As suggested by the reviewer we have corrected the wording and have substituted “absence of p53” by “interference with p53 function” where appropriate. The sentence "Senescence- and apoptosis-driven depletion of the stem cell pool may explain reduced life span and tumor formation in STIL transgenic mice." from discussion is highly speculative and should be edited to clearly convey its speculative nature or removed entirely. ______ We agree with the reviewer and have deleted the sentence from the discussion section of the manuscript.

      __Reviewer #3 (Significance (Required)): ______ Clearly, tissue corrective mechanisms lead to the elimination of cells with extra centrosomes and/or aneuploidy by impaired proliferation, senescence, and apoptosis. This finding is interesting and significant and seems worthy of dissemination to the scientific community. It adds to previous work on another centriole related protein PLK4 kinase that led to very different conclusions.

    1. Author response:

      We are grateful to the reviewers for their interest and enthusiasm about the work, and deeply appreciate their constructive comments and suggestions. Our responses are below

      (1) Do mice with BCR-ABL/MSI2-HOXA9 leukemia have an increased pool of leukemic stem cells (LSC), or do they have an increased propensity to develop blast cells? Is it the number of LSCs that has increased, or is it the function of LSC to give rise to the disease that has increased? It is not clear if the detected differences in Lineage-negative cells (Figure S1D) were detected in vitro in retrovirally transduced cells or were detected in vivo in transplanted mice. If the differences were detected in vitro, could the author confirm the same findings in vivo? This will greatly enhance the understanding of in vivo disease pathogenesis and could directly link the aggressivity of the disease (shortened survival) with an increased stem cell-like population.

      We find that BCR-ABL/MSI2-HOXA9 leads to a marked increase in Lineage negative (Lin-) cells which contains the LSC fraction. Specifically, the LSC containing fraction represented 14.1% of the BCR-ABL driven disease and 56.7% of the BCR-ABL and MSI2-HOXA9 driven disease (p<.0001). This suggests that MSI2-HOXA9 triggers the expansion of the undifferentiated LSC containing pool. In addition, the blast frequency was also increased albeit to a lesser extent, with 63.8% blasts (SEM 1.1) for BCR-ABL and 83.3% (SEM 3.1) for BCR-ABL/MSI2-HOXA9 (p=.0001). This suggests that the resulting aggressive disease seen with MSI2-HOXA9 is a consequence of a large increase in undifferentiated  LSC containing cells, as well as the resulting increase in the blast count. The Lin- cells were analyzed from fully established leukemias in vivo (Fig. S1D)

      (2) The authors suggest that BCR-ABL/MSI2-HOXA9 leads to the development of blast crisis-CML. One of the main characteristics of blast crisis-CML is drug resistance. Is BCR-ABL/MSI2-HOXA9 leukemia resistant to classical CML treatment drugs?

      The sensitivity to Imatinib is a very interesting question. In general, while differentiated cells in CML are sensitive to Imatinib, the more undifferentiated cells (LSCs) are resistant1,2. Based on the fact that therapy resistance in blast crisis is largely driven by the undifferentiated fraction of leukemia cells, and given that BCR-ABL/MSI2-HOXA9 driven disease harbors a larger fraction of these undifferentiated cells, we would predict that BCR-ABL/MSI2-HOXA9 leukemia would also be more resistant to imatinib. However, this would need to be experimentally demonstrated and is an important question to address.

      (3) The authors have emphasized the heightened expression of Polrmt in delineating the mitochondrial phenotype of BCR-ABL/MSI2-HOXA9 leukemia cells. However, the regulatory mechanism governing the expression of Polrmt by MSI2-HOXA9 has not been clearly demonstrated by the authors. Unveiling this mechanism would constitute a novel finding and significantly elevate the quality of the research.

      Since Polrmt and mitochondrial genes are transcribed in the nucleus we explored whether MSI2-HOXA9 may control mitochondrial gene expression by triggering expression of Polrmt and other key transcription factors. Consistent with this possibility, MSI2-HOXA9 was preferentially found in the nucleus relative to MSI2. In addition, there were 10 occurrences of the minimal MSI2 RRM1 consensus binding sequence UAGU within the Polrmt transcript. While this is consistent with the possibility that Polrmt expression can be post-transcriptionally modulated by MSI2-HOXA9, this needs to be experimentally validated using Clip Seq analysis with wild type MSI2 as well as the MSI2-HOXA9 fusion protein in context of blast crisis CML.

      (4) Did the authors observe any survival differences between BCR-ABL/NUP98-HOXA9 and BCR-ABL/MSI2-HOXA9?

      In previous work from our lab we have found that the median survival for BCR-ABL/NUP98-HOXA9 was 17 days, and with BCR-ABL/ MSI2-HOXA9 was 18.5 days (p value of 0.22). This suggests that there is not a significant difference in survival times between the leukemias driven by the distinct alleles, and they may be equally aggressive.

      (1) MSI2-HOXA9 fusion is extremely rare as it has been only found in a handful of patients and it is not clear whether other MSI2 fusions function in a similar manner.

      We were very surprised and excited to see the large number of translocations in solid cancers that involve MSI2.  Interestingly, MSI2 translocations occurred both at the N and the C terminus.  Distinct translocations are likely to have unique roles in each disease context. For example, if MSI2’s 5 prime end is part of a translocation, it may functionally contribute via its promoter to drive expression in immature cells and could thus activate oncogenic signals (e.g. controlled by the partner gene) in immature cells which are inherently more susceptible to transformation (Eµ-myc is an example of such a translocation). If Msi2’s RRM domains are part of the fusion, they could bind and target RNAs aberrantly (such as in the wrong cell and the wrong time) and lead to activation of downstream oncogenic mediators. To fully understand the role of each of these translocations in each specific cancer, we would need to experimentally test their impact by ectopic expression in the appropriate cell of origin and domain mapping the basis of any impact in the relevant cancer models as we have done for MSI2-HOXA9 in blast crisis CML in the work we report here.   While this is an intensive undertaking, it is nonetheless important future work as it will undoubtedly lead to new insight about MSI2 linked translocations in diverse solid cancers such as breast cancer and lung cancer.

      (2) The mechanism needs to be strengthened since MSI2 alone or the HOXA9 mutant may not be linked to the mitochondrial mechanism. (3) It is not clear that the mitochondrial pathway is sufficient for the MSI2-HOXA9 oncogenic mechanism.

      Our observation that MSI2-HOXA9 triggered changes in mitochondrial function was of particular interest as it was (to our knowledge) uncharted in context of Msi2 signaling in cancer, thus leading us to explore this further.  However, multiple other signals are likely downstream regulators and these may well act cooperatively with, or independently of, the heightened­­ mitochondrial function we report here. Among these pathways, the most likely mediators included oncogenic programs related to the Wnt pathway including Wnt, Fzd 3 and Frat1, and those related to the Notch pathway including-Tribbles and Hey1 as well as other stem cell genes such as Aldh1. These programs have been previously implicated in the regulation of myeloid leukemia3-11 and could well mediate the impact of the MSI2-HOXA9 translocation. The relative contribution of mitochondrial metabolism and that of developmental and stem cell signals to the onset of MSI2-HOXA9 driven blast crisis CML is an important avenue of future work.

      References

      (1) Corbin, A. S., Agarwal, A., Loriaux, M., Cortes, J., Deininger, M. W. & Druker, B. J. 2011. Human chronic myeloid leukemia stem cells are insensitive to imatinib despite inhibition of BCR-ABL activity. J Clin Invest 121: 396-409. PMC3007128.

      (2) Graham, S. M., Jørgensen, H. G., Allan, E., Pearson, C., Alcorn, M. J., Richmond, L. & Holyoake, T. L. 2002. Primitive, quiescent, Philadelphia-positive stem cells from patients with chronic myeloid leukemia are insensitive to STI571 in vitro. Blood 99: 319-325.

      (3) Gurska, L. M., Ames, K. & Gritsman, K. 2019. Signaling Pathways in Leukemic Stem Cells. Adv Exp Med Biol 1143: 1-39. PMC7249489.

      (4) Narendra, G., Raju, B., Verma, H. & Silakari, O. 2021. Identification of potential genes associated with ALDH1A1 overexpression and cyclophosphamide resistance in chronic myelogenous leukemia using network analysis. Med Oncol 38: 123.

      (5) Ran, D., Schubert, M., Pietsch, L., Taubert, I., Wuchter, P., Eckstein, V., Bruckner, T., Zoeller, M. & Ho, A. D. 2009. Aldehyde dehydrogenase activity among primary leukemia cells is associated with stem cell features and correlates with adverse clinical outcomes. Exp Hematol 37: 1423-1434.

      (6) Reya, T., Duncan, A. W., Ailles, L., Domen, J., Scherer, D. C., Willert, K., Hintz, L., Nusse, R. & Weissman, I. L. 2003. A role for Wnt signalling in self-renewal of haematopoietic stem cells. Nature 423: 409-414.

      (7) Riether, C., Schürch, C. M., Bührer, E. D., Hinterbrandner, M., Huguenin, A. L., Hoepner, S., Zlobec, I., Pabst, T., Radpour, R. & Ochsenbein, A. F. 2017. CD70/CD27 signaling promotes blast stemness and is a viable therapeutic target in acute myeloid leukemia. J Exp Med 214: 359-380. PMC5294846.

      (8) Riether, C., Schürch, C. M., Flury, C., Hinterbrandner, M., Drück, L., Huguenin, A. L., Baerlocher, G. M., Radpour, R. & Ochsenbein, A. F. 2015. Tyrosine kinase inhibitor-induced CD70 expression mediates drug resistance in leukemia stem cells by activating Wnt signaling. Sci Transl Med 7: 298ra119.

      (9) Venton, G., Pérez-Alea, M., Baier, C., Fournet, G., Quash, G., Labiad, Y., Martin, G., Sanderson, F., Poullin, P., Suchon, P., Farnault, L., Nguyen, C., Brunet, C., Ceylan, I. & Costello, R. T. 2016. Aldehyde dehydrogenases inhibition eradicates leukemia stem cells while sparing normal progenitors. Blood Cancer J 6: e469. PMC5056970.

      (10) Yin, D. D., Fan, F. Y., Hu, X. B., Hou, L. H., Zhang, X. P., Liu, L., Liang, Y. M. & Han, H. 2009. Notch signaling inhibits the growth of the human chronic myeloid leukemia cell line K562. Leuk Res 33: 109-114.

      (11) Kang, Y. A., Pietras, E. M. & Passegué, E. 2020. Deregulated Notch and Wnt signaling activates early-stage myeloid regeneration pathways in leukemia. J Exp Med 217. PMC7062512.

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The manuscript by Mäkelä et al. presents compelling experimental evidence that the amount of chromosomal DNA can become limiting for the total rate of mRNA transcription and consequently protein production in the model bacterium Escherichia coli. Specifically, the authors demonstrate that upon inhibition of DNA replication the single-cell growth rate continuously decreases, in direct proportion to the concentration of active ribosomes, as measured indirectly by single-particle tracking. The decrease of ribosomal activity with filamentation, in turn, is likely caused by a decrease of the concentration of mRNAs, as suggested by an observed plateau of the total number of active RNA polymerases. These observations are compatible with the hypothesis that DNA limits the total rate of transcription and thus translation. The authors also demonstrate that the decrease of RNAp activity is independent of two candidate stress response pathways, the SOS stress response and the stringent response, as well as an anti-sigma factor previously implicated in variations of RNAp activity upon variations of nutrient sources.

      Remarkably, the reduction of growth rate is observed soon after the inhibition of DNA replication, suggesting that the amount of DNA in wild-type cells is tuned to provide just as much substrate for RNA polymerase as needed to saturate most ribosomes with mRNAs. While previous studies of bacterial growth have most often focused on ribosomes and metabolic proteins, this study provides important evidence that chromosomal DNA has a previously underestimated important and potentially rate-limiting role for growth.

      Strengths:

      This article links the growth of single cells to the amount of DNA, the number of active ribosomes and to the number of RNA polymerases, combining quantitative experiments with theory. The correlations observed during depletion of DNA, notably in M9gluCAA medium, are compelling and point towards a limiting role of DNA for transcription and subsequently for protein production soon after reduction of the amount of DNA in the cell. The article also contains a theoretical model of transcription-translation that contains a Michaelis-Menten type dependency of transcription on DNA availability and is fit to the data. While the model fits well with the continuous reduction of relative growth rate in rich medium (M9gluCAA), the behavior in minimal media without casamino acids is a bit less clear (see comments below).

      At a technical level, single-cell growth experiments and single-particle tracking experiments are well described, suggesting that different diffusive states of molecules represent different states of RNAp/ribosome activities, which reflect the reduction of growth. However, I still have a few points about the interpretation of the data and the measured fractions of active ribosomes (see below).

      Apart from correlations in DNA-deplete cells, the article also investigates the role of candidate stress response pathways for reduced transcription, demonstrating that neither the SOS nor the stringent response are responsible for the reduced rate of growth. Equally, the anti-sigma factor Rsd recently described for its role in controlling RNA polymerase activity in nutrient-poor growth media, seems also not involved according to mass-spec data. While other (unknown) pathways might still be involved in reducing the number of active RNA polymerases, the proposed hypothesis of the DNA substrate itself being limiting for the total rate of transcription is appealing.

      Finally, the authors confirm the reduction of growth in the distant Caulobacter crescentus, which lacks overlapping rounds of replication and could thus have shown a different dependency on DNA concentration.

      Weaknesses:

      There are a range of points that should be clarified or addressed, either by additional experiments/analyses or by explanations or clear disclaimers.

      First, the continuous reduction of growth rate upon arrest of DNA replication initiation observed in rich growth medium (M9gluCAA) is not equally observed in poor media. Instead, the relative growth rate is immediately/quickly reduced by about 10-20% and then maintained for long times, as if the arrest of replication initiation had an immediate effect but would then not lead to saturation of the DNA substrate. In particular, the long plateau of a constant relative growth rate in M9ala is difficult to reconcile with the model fit in Fig 4S2. Is it possible that DNA is not limiting in poor media (at least not for the cell sizes studied here) while replication arrest still elicits a reduction of growth rate in a different way? Might this have something to do with the naturally much higher oscillations of DNA concentration in minimal medium?

      The authors argue that DNA becomes limiting in the range of physiological cell sizes, in particular for M9glCAA (Fig. 1BC). It would be helpful to know by how much (fold-change) the DNA concentration is reduced below wild-type (or multi-N) levels at t=0 in Fig 1B and how DNA concentration decays with time or cell area, to get a sense by how many-fold DNA is essentially 'overexpressed/overprovided' in wild-type cells.

      Fig. 2: The distribution of diffusion coefficients of RpsB is fit to Gaussians on the log scale. Is this based on a model or on previous work or simply an empirical fit to the data? An exact analytical model for the distribution of diffusion constants can be found in the tool anaDDA by Vink, ..., Hohlbein Biophys J 2020. Alternatively, distributions of displacements are expressed analytically in other tools (e.g., in SpotOn).

      The estimated fraction of active ribosomes in wild-type cells shows a very strong reduction with decreasing growth rate (down from 75% to 30%), twice as strong as measured in bulk experiments (Dai et al Nat Microbiology 2016; decrease from 90% to 60% for the same growth rate range) and probably incompatible with measurements of growth rate, ribosome concentrations, and almost constant translation elongation rate in this regime of growth rates. Might the different diffusive fractions of RpsB not represent active/inactive ribosomes? See also the problem of quantification above. The authors should explain and compare their results to previous work.

      To measure the reduction of mRNA transcripts in the cell, the authors rely on the fluorescent dye SYTO RNAselect. They argue that 70% of the dye signal represents mRNA. The argument is based on the previously observed reduction of the total signal by 70% upon treatment with rifampicin, an RNA polymerase inhibitor (Bakshi et al 2014). The idea here is presumably that mRNA should undergo rapid degradation upon rif treatment while rRNA or tRNA are stable. However, work from Hamouche et al. RNA (2021) 27:946 demonstrates that rifampicin treatment also leads to a rapid degradation of rRNA. Furthermore, the timescale of fluorescent-signal decay in the paper by Bakshi et al. (half life about 10min) is not compatible with the previously reported rapid decay of mRNA (2-4min) but rather compatible with the slower, still somewhat rapid, decay of rRNA reported by Hamouche et al.. A bulk method to measure total mRNA as in the cited Balakrishnan et al. (Science 2022) would thus be a preferred method to quantify mRNA. Alternatively, the authors could also test whether the mass contribution of total RNA remains constant, which would suggest that rRNA decay does not contribute to signal loss. However, since rRNA dominates total RNA, this measurement requires high accuracy. The authors might thus tone down their conclusions on mRNA concentration changes while still highlighting the compelling data on RNAp diffusion.

      The proteomics experiments are a great addition to the single-cell studies, and the correlations between distance from ori and protein abundance is compelling. However, I was missing a different test, the authors might have already done but not put in the manuscript: If DNA is indeed limiting the initiation of transcription, genes that are already highly transcribed in non-perturbed conditions might saturate fastest upon replication inhibition, while genes rarely transcribed should have no problem to accommodate additional RNA polymerases. One might thus want to test, whether the (unperturbed) transcription initiation rate is a predictor of changes in protein composition. This is just a suggestion the authors may also ignore, but since it is an easy analysis, I chose to mention it here.

      Related to the proteomics, in l. 380 the authors write that the reduced expression close to the ori might reflect a gene-dosage compensatory mechanism. I don't understand this argument. Can the authors add a sentence to explain their hypothesis?

      In Fig. 1E the authors show evidence that growth rate increases with cell length/area. While this is not a main point of the paper it might be cited by others in the future. There are two possible artifacts that could influence this experiment: a) segmentation: an overestimation of the physical length of the cell based on phase-contrast images (e.g., 200 nm would cause a 10% error in the relative rate of 2 um cells, but not of longer cells). b) time-dependent changes of growth rate, e.g., due to change from liquid to solid or other perturbations. To test for the latter, one could measure growth rate as a function of time, restricting the analysis to short or long cells, or measuring growth rate for short/long cells at selected time points. For the former, I recommend comparison of phase-contrast segmentation with FM4-64-stained cell boundaries.

    2. Author response:

      eLife assessment

      This study represents a fundamental contribution to our understanding of how gene expression levels are controlled in bacteria. Through a series of compelling and careful experiments, relying on a mutant that blocks DNA replication but permits growth, and using various methods, the authors reveal how genome concentration rapidly becomes limiting for growth when replication is inhibited. This work contributes to our understanding of the contributions and limiting roles of DNA, mRNA, and ribosomes for growth in bacteria, and will be of considerable interest within both systems biology and microbial physiology.

      Thank you!

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The manuscript by Mäkelä et al. presents compelling experimental evidence that the amount of chromosomal DNA can become limiting for the total rate of mRNA transcription and consequently protein production in the model bacterium Escherichia coli. Specifically, the authors demonstrate that upon inhibition of DNA replication the single-cell growth rate continuously decreases, in direct proportion to the concentration of active ribosomes, as measured indirectly by single-particle tracking. The decrease of ribosomal activity with filamentation, in turn, is likely caused by a decrease of the concentration of mRNAs, as suggested by an observed plateau of the total number of active RNA polymerases. These observations are compatible with the hypothesis that DNA limits the total rate of transcription and thus translation. The authors also demonstrate that the decrease of RNAp activity is independent of two candidate stress response pathways, the SOS stress response and the stringent response, as well as an anti-sigma factor previously implicated in variations of RNAp activity upon variations of nutrient sources.

      Remarkably, the reduction of growth rate is observed soon after the inhibition of DNA replication, suggesting that the amount of DNA in wild-type cells is tuned to provide just as much substrate for RNA polymerase as needed to saturate most ribosomes with mRNAs. While previous studies of bacterial growth have most often focused on ribosomes and metabolic proteins, this study provides important evidence that chromosomal DNA has a previously underestimated important and potentially rate-limiting role for growth.

      Thank you for the excellent summary of our work.

      Strengths:

      This article links the growth of single cells to the amount of DNA, the number of active ribosomes and to the number of RNA polymerases, combining quantitative experiments with theory. The correlations observed during depletion of DNA, notably in M9gluCAA medium, are compelling and point towards a limiting role of DNA for transcription and subsequently for protein production soon after reduction of the amount of DNA in the cell. The article also contains a theoretical model of transcription-translation that contains a Michaelis-Menten type dependency of transcription on DNA availability and is fit to the data. While the model fits well with the continuous reduction of relative growth rate in rich medium (M9gluCAA), the behavior in minimal media without casamino acids is a bit less clear (see comments below).

      At a technical level, single-cell growth experiments and single-particle tracking experiments are well described, suggesting that different diffusive states of molecules represent different states of RNAp/ribosome activities, which reflect the reduction of growth. However, I still have a few points about the interpretation of the data and the measured fractions of active ribosomes (see below).

      Apart from correlations in DNA-deplete cells, the article also investigates the role of candidate stress response pathways for reduced transcription, demonstrating that neither the SOS nor the stringent response are responsible for the reduced rate of growth. Equally, the anti-sigma factor Rsd recently described for its role in controlling RNA polymerase activity in nutrient-poor growth media, seems also not involved according to mass-spec data. While other (unknown) pathways might still be involved in reducing the number of active RNA polymerases, the proposed hypothesis of the DNA substrate itself being limiting for the total rate of transcription is appealing.

      Finally, the authors confirm the reduction of growth in the distant Caulobacter crescentus, which lacks overlapping rounds of replication and could thus have shown a different dependency on DNA concentration.

      Weaknesses:

      There are a range of points that should be clarified or addressed, either by additional experiments/analyses or by explanations or clear disclaimers.

      First, the continuous reduction of growth rate upon arrest of DNA replication initiation observed in rich growth medium (M9gluCAA) is not equally observed in poor media. Instead, the relative growth rate is immediately/quickly reduced by about 10-20% and then maintained for long times, as if the arrest of replication initiation had an immediate effect but would then not lead to saturation of the DNA substrate. In particular, the long plateau of a constant relative growth rate in M9ala is difficult to reconcile with the model fit in Fig 4S2. Is it possible that DNA is not limiting in poor media (at least not for the cell sizes studied here) while replication arrest still elicits a reduction of growth rate in a different way? Might this have something to do with the naturally much higher oscillations of DNA concentration in minimal medium?

      We note that the total RNAP activity (abundance x active fraction) was also significantly reduced in poor media (Figure 3 -- supplement 4G and H) similarly to rich medium (Figure 3H). This is consistent with DNA being limiting. The main difference between rich and poor medium conditions is that the total ribosome activity in poor media (Figure 2 -- supplement 4G and H) was less affected in comparison to rich media (Figure 2H). Our interpretation of these results is that while DNA is limiting in all medium conditions (as shown by the RNAP data), changes in ribosome activity or mRNA degradation can compensate for the reduction in transcription in poor media and hence maintain better scaling of growth rates under DNA limitation. We understand how our current presentation made it confusing. We will reorganize the text and figures to better explain our results and interpretations. 

      The authors argue that DNA becomes limiting in the range of physiological cell sizes, in particular for M9glCAA (Fig. 1BC). It would be helpful to know by how much (fold-change) the DNA concentration is reduced below wild-type (or multi-N) levels at t=0 in Fig 1B and how DNA concentration decays with time or cell area, to get a sense by how many-fold DNA is essentially 'overexpressed/overprovided' in wild-type cells.

      We will provide an estimate.

      Fig. 2: The distribution of diffusion coefficients of RpsB is fit to Gaussians on the log scale. Is this based on a model or on previous work or simply an empirical fit to the data? An exact analytical model for the distribution of diffusion constants can be found in the tool anaDDA by Vink, ..., Hohlbein Biophys J 2020. Alternatively, distributions of displacements are expressed analytically in other tools (e.g., in SpotOn).

      We use an empirical fit of Gaussian mixture model (GMM) of three states to the data and extract the fractions of molecules in each state. This avoids making too many assumptions on the underlying processes, e.g. a Markovian system with Brownian diffusion. The model in anaDDA (Vink et al.) is currently limited to two-transitioning states with a maximal step number of 8 steps per track for a computationally efficient solution (longer tracks are truncated). Using a short subset of the trajectories is less accurate than using the entire trajectory and because of this, we consider full tracks with at least 9 displacements. Meanwhile, Spot-On supports a three-state model but it is still based on a semi-analytical model with a pre-calculated library of parameters created by fitting of simulated data. Neither of these models considers the effect of cell confinement, which plays a major role on single-molecule diffusion in small-sized cells such as bacteria. For these reasons, we opted to use an empirical fit to the data. We note that the fractions of active ribosomes in WT cells grown in different media, which we extracted from these diffusion measurements, are consistent with estimates obtained by others using similar or different approaches (Forchhammer and Lindhal 1971; Mohapatra and Weisshaar, 2018; Sanamrad et al., 2014).

      The estimated fraction of active ribosomes in wild-type cells shows a very strong reduction with decreasing growth rate (down from 75% to 30%), twice as strong as measured in bulk experiments (Dai et al Nat Microbiology 2016; decrease from 90% to 60% for the same growth rate range) and probably incompatible with measurements of growth rate, ribosome concentrations, and almost constant translation elongation rate in this regime of growth rates. Might the different diffusive fractions of RpsB not represent active/inactive ribosomes? See also the problem of quantification above. The authors should explain and compare their results to previous work.

      We agree that our measured range is somewhat larger than the estimated range from Dai et al, 2016. However, they use different media, strains, and growth conditions. We also note that Dai et al did not make actual measurements of the active ribosome fraction. Instead, they calculate the “active ribosome equivalent” based on a model that includes growth rate, protein synthesis rate, RNA/protein abundance, and the total number of amino acids in all proteins in the cell. Importantly, our measurements show the same overall trend as Dai et al, 2016. Furthermore, our results are in quantitative agreements with previous experimental measurements that use ribosome profiling (Forchhammer and Lindhal 1971) or single-ribosome tracking (Mohapatra and Weisshaar, 2018; Sanamrad et al., 2014), which, we believe, validates our approach. We will clarify this point in the revised manuscript.

      To measure the reduction of mRNA transcripts in the cell, the authors rely on the fluorescent dye SYTO RNAselect. They argue that 70% of the dye signal represents mRNA. The argument is based on the previously observed reduction of the total signal by 70% upon treatment with rifampicin, an RNA polymerase inhibitor (Bakshi et al 2014). The idea here is presumably that mRNA should undergo rapid degradation upon rif treatment while rRNA or tRNA are stable. However, work from Hamouche et al. RNA (2021) 27:946 demonstrates that rifampicin treatment also leads to a rapid degradation of rRNA. Furthermore, the timescale of fluorescent-signal decay in the paper by Bakshi et al. (half life about 10min) is not compatible with the previously reported rapid decay of mRNA (24min) but rather compatible with the slower, still somewhat rapid, decay of rRNA reported by Hamouche et al.. A bulk method to measure total mRNA as in the cited Balakrishnan et al. (Science 2022) would thus be a preferred method to quantify mRNA. Alternatively, the authors could also test whether the mass contribution of total RNA remains constant, which would suggest that rRNA decay does not contribute to signal loss. However, since rRNA dominates total RNA, this measurement requires high accuracy. The authors might thus tone down their conclusions on mRNA concentration changes while still highlighting the compelling data on RNAp diffusion.

      Thank you for bringing the Hamouche et al 2022 paper to our attention. We will address this point in the revised manuscript.

      The proteomics experiments are a great addition to the single-cell studies, and the correlations between distance from ori and protein abundance is compelling. However, I was missing a different test, the authors might have already done but not put in the manuscript: If DNA is indeed limiting the initiation of transcription, genes that are already highly transcribed in non-perturbed conditions might saturate fastest upon replication inhibition, while genes rarely transcribed should have no problem to accommodate additional RNA polymerases. One might thus want to test, whether the (unperturbed) transcription initiation rate is a predictor of changes in protein composition. This is just a suggestion the authors may also ignore, but since it is an easy analysis, I chose to mention it here.

      Thank you for the suggestion. We will provide the suggested analysis in the revised manuscript.

      Related to the proteomics, in l. 380 the authors write that the reduced expression close to the ori might reflect a gene-dosage compensatory mechanism. I don't understand this argument. Can the authors add a sentence to explain their hypothesis?

      We apologize for the confusion. This will be addressed in the revised manuscript.

      In Fig. 1E the authors show evidence that growth rate increases with cell length/area. While this is not a main point of the paper it might be cited by others in the future. There are two possible artifacts that could influence this experiment: a) segmentation: an overestimation of the physical length of the cell based on phase-contrast images (e.g., 200 nm would cause a 10% error in the relative rate of 2 um cells, but not of longer cells). b) time-dependent changes of growth rate, e.g., due to change from liquid to solid or other perturbations. To test for the latter, one could measure growth rate as a function of time, restricting the analysis to short or long cells, or measuring growth rate for short/long cells at selected time points. For the former, I recommend comparison of phasecontrast segmentation with FM4-64-stained cell boundaries.

      As the reviewer notes, the small increase in relative growth was just a minor observation that does not affect our story whether it is biologically meaningful or the result of a technical artefact. But we agree with the reviewer that others might cite it in future works and thus should be interpreted with caution.

      An artefact associated with time-dependent changes (e.g. changing from liquid cultures to more solid agarose pads) is unlikely for two reasons. 1. We show that varying the time that cells spend on agarose pads relative to liquid cultures does not affect the cell size-dependent growth rate results (Figure 1 -- supplement 5B). 2. We show that the growth rate is stable from the beginning of the time-lapse with no transient effects upon cell placement on agarose pads for imaging (Figure 1 -- supplement 5B). These results were described in the Methods section where they could easily be missed. We will revise the text to discuss these controls more prominently in the Results section.

      As for cell segmentation, we have run simulations and agree with the reviewer that a small overestimation of cell area (which is possible with any cell segmentation methods including ours) could lead to a small increase in relative growth with increasing cell areas. Since the finding is not important to our story, we will simply alert the readers to the possibility that the observation may be due to a small cell segmentation bias.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      In this work, the authors uncovered the effects of DNA dilution on E. coli, including a decrease in growth rate and a significant change in proteome composition. The authors demonstrated that the decline in growth rate is due to the reduction of active ribosomes and active RNA polymerases because of the limited DNA copy numbers. They further showed that the change in the DNA-tovolume ratio leads to concentration changes in almost 60% of proteins, and these changes mainly stem from the change in the mRNA levels.

      Thank you for the support and accurate summary!

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Mäkelä et al. here investigate genome concentration as a limiting factor on growth. Previous work has identified key roles for transcription (RNA polymerase) and translation (ribosomes) as limiting factors on growth, which enable an exponential increase in cell mass. While a potential limiting role of genome concentration under certain conditions has been explored theoretically, Mäkelä et al. here present direct evidence that when replication is inhibited, genome concentration emerges as a limiting factor.

      Strengths:

      A major strength of this paper is the diligent and compelling combination of experiment and modeling used to address this core question. The use of origin- and ftsZ-targeted CRISPRi is a very nice approach that enables dissection of the specific effects of limiting genome dosage in the context of a growing cytoplasm. While it might be expected that genome concentration eventually becomes a limiting factor, what is surprising and novel here is that this happens very rapidly, with growth transitioning even for cells within the normal length distribution for E. coli. Fundamentally, it demonstrates the fine balance of bacterial physiology, where the concentration of the genome itself (at least under rapid growth conditions) is no higher than it needs to be.

      Weaknesses:

      One limitation of the study is that genome concentration is largely treated as a single commodity. While this facilitates their modeling approach, one would expect that the growth phenotypes observed arise due to copy number limitation in a relatively small number of rate-limiting genes. The authors do report shifts in the composition of both the proteome and the transcriptome in response to replication inhibition, but while they report a positional effect of distance from the replication origin (reflecting loss of high-copy, origin-proximal genes), other factors shaping compositional shifts and their functional effects on growth are not extensively explored. This is particularly true for ribosomal RNA itself, which the authors assume to grow proportionately with protein. More generally, understanding which genes exert the greatest copy number-dependent influence on growth may aid both efforts to enhance (biotechnology) and inhibit (infection) bacterial growth.

      We agree but feel that identifying the specific limiting genes is beyond the scope of the study. However, to examine other potential contributing factors and identify limiting gene candidates, we plan to carry out new correlation analyses between our proteomic/transcriptomic datasets and published genome-wide datasets that report various variables under unperturbed conditions (e.g., mRNA/protein concentration, mRNA degradation rates, fitness cost, transcription/translation initiation rates, and essentiality).

      Overall, this study provides a fundamental contribution to bacterial physiology by illuminating the relationship between DNA, mRNA, and protein in determining growth rate. While coarse-grained, the work invites exciting questions about how the composition of major cellular components is fine-tuned to a cell's needs and which specific gene products mediate this connection. This work has implications not only for biotechnology, as the authors discuss, but potentially also for our understanding of how DNA-targeted antibiotics limit bacterial growth.

      Good point about the DNA-targeted antibiotics. Thank you!

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      When resizing the website, there is no change in layout (unresponsive) which means it is not robust.

    1. Author response:

      eLife assessment

      This paper presents a valuable optimization algorithm for determining the spatio-temporal organization of chromatin. The algorithm identifies the polymer model that best fits population averaged Hi-C data and makes predictions about the spatio-temoral organization of specific genomic loci such as the oncogenic Myc locus. While the algorithm will be of value to biologists and physicists working in the field of genome organization, the provided methodological details and evidence are incomplete to fully substantiate the conclusions. In particular, the following would be beneficial: analysis of single-cell data, the inclusion of loci beyond Myc, testing the dependence of results on the chosen parameters, providing more details on CTCF occupancy at loop anchors, and better substantiating the claim about predictions of single-cell heterogeneity.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors of this study aim to use an optimization algorithm approach, based on the established Nelder-Mead method, to infer polymer models that best match input bulk Hi-C contact data. The procedure infers the best parameters of a generic polymer model that combines loop-extrusion (LE) dynamics and compartmentalization of chromatin types driven by weak biochemical affinities. Using this and DNA FISH, the authors investigate the chromatin structure of the MYC locus in leukemia cells, showing that loop extrusion alone cannot explain local pathogenic chromatin rearrangements. Finally, they study the locus single-cell heterogeneity and time dynamics.

      Strengths:

      • The optimization method provides a fast computational tool that speeds up the parameter search of complex chromatin polymer models and is a good technical advancement.

      • The method is not restricted to short genomic regions, as in principle it can be applied genome-wide to any input Hi-C dataset, and could be potentially useful for testing predictions on chromatin structure.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The optimization is based on the iterative comparison of simulated and Hi-C contact matrices using the Spearman correlation. However, the inferred set of the best-fit simulation parameters could sensitively depend on such a specific metric choice, questioning the robustness of the output polymer models. How do results change by using different correlation coefficients?

      This is an important question. We have tested several metrics in the process of building the fitting procedure. We will showcase side-by-side comparisons of the fitting results obtained using these different metrics in an upcoming version of the preprint.

      (2) The best-fit contact threshold of 420nm seems a quite large value, considering that contact probabilities of pairs of loci at the mega-base scale are defined within 150nm (see, e.g., (Bintu et al. 2018) and (Takei et al. 2021)).

      This is a good point. Unfortunately, there is no established standard distance cutoff to map distances to Hi-C contact frequency data. Indeed, previous publications have used anywhere between 120 nm to 500 nm (see e.g. (Cardozo Gizzi et al. 2019), (Cattoni et al. 2017) , (Mateo et al. 2019), (Hafner et al. 2022), (Murphy and Boettiger 2022), (Takei et al. 2021), (Fudenberg and Imakaev 2017) , (Wang et al. 2016), (Su et al. 2020), (Chen et al. 2022), (Finn et al. 2019)). We will include a supplementary table in the upcoming revised preprint listing these values to demonstrate the lack of consensus. This large variation could reflect different chromatin compaction levels across distinct model systems, and different spatial resolutions in DNA FISH experiments performed by different labs. The variance in the threshold choice is also likely partially explained by Hi-C experimental details, e.g. the enzyme used for digestion, which biases the effective length scale of interactions detected (Akgol Oksuz et al. 2021). Among commonly used restriction enzymes, HindIII has a relatively low cutting frequency which results in a lower sensitivity to short-range interactions; on the other hand, MboI has a higher cutting frequency which results in a higher sensitivity to short-range interactions (Akgol Oksuz et al. 2021). Because the Hi-C data we used for the Myc locus in (Kloetgen et al. 2020) was generated using HindIII, we chose a distance cutoff close to the larger end of published values (420 nm).

      (3) In their model, the authors consider the presence of LE anchor sites at Hi-C TAD boundaries. Do they correspond to real, experimentally found CTCF sites located at genomic positions, or they are just assumed? A track of CTCF peaks of the considered chromatin loci would be needed.

      We apologize this was not clear. The LE anchor sites in the simulation model were chosen because they correspond to experimental CTCF sites and ChIP-seq peaks located at the corresponding genomic positions. Representative CTCF ChIP-seq tracks from (Kloetgen et al. 2020) will be added to figure 2 in the revised preprint version to emphasize this point.

      (4) In the model, each TAD is assigned a specific energy affinity value. Do the different domain types (i.e., different colors) have a mutually attractive energy? If so, what is its value and how is it determined? The simulated contact maps (e.g., Figure 2C) seem to allow attractions between different blocks, yet this is unclear.

      Sorry this was not explicit. The attraction energy between a pair of monomers in the simulation is determined using the geometric mean of the affinities of the two monomers. This applies to both monomers within the same domain and in different domains. This detail will be clarified in the upcoming revised preprint.

      (5) To substantiate the claim that the simulations can predict heterogeneity across single cells, the authors should perform additional analyses. For instance, they could plot the histograms (models vs. experiments) of the TAD2-TAD4 distance distributions and check whether the models can recapitulate the FISH-observed variance or standard deviation. They could also add other testable predictions, e.g., on gyration radius distributions, kurtosis, all-against-all comparison of single-molecule distance matrices, etc,.

      We agree that heterogeneity prediction is a key advantage of the simulations. We do note that the histograms (models vs. experiments) of the TAD2-TAD4 distance distributions measured by FISH were plotted in Fig. 3C as empirical cumulative probability distributions (as is standard in the field), side by side with the simulation predictions. Simulations indeed recapitulate the variance observed by FISH. We also had emphasized this important point in the main text: “Importantly, not just the average distances, but the shape of the distance distribution across individual cells closely matches the predictions of the simulations in both cell types, further confirming that the simulations can predict heterogeneity across cells.”

      (6) The authors state that loop extrusion is crucial for enhancer function only at large distances. How does that reconcile, e.g., with Mach et al. Nature Gen. (2022) where LE is found to constrain the dynamics of genomically close (150kb) chromatin loci?

      This is an interesting question. In (Mach et al. 2022), the authors tracked the physical distance between two fluorescent labels positioned next to either anchor of a ~150 kb engineered topological domain using live-cell imaging. They found that abrogation of the loop anchors by ablation of the CTCF binding motifs, or knock-down of the cohesin subunit Rad21 resulted in increased physical distance between the loci. HMM Modeling of the distance over time traces suggests that the increased distance resulted from rarer and shorter contacts between the anchors. While this might seem at odds with the results of Fig. 4L, we note a key difference between the loci. While (Mach et al. 2022) observed the dynamics of the distance separating two CTCF loop anchors, in our model only the MYC promoter is proximal to a loop anchor, while the position of the second locus is varied, but remains far from the other anchor. The deletion of the CTCF sites at both anchors in (Mach et al. 2022) indeed results in a lowered sensitivity of the physical distance to Rad21 knock-down, reminiscent of the results of Fig. 4L in our work. This result demonstrates that loop extrusion disruption disproportionately impacts distances between loci close to loop anchors, consistent with Hi-C results (Rao et al. 2017; Nora et al. 2017). We therefore believe that the models in our work and (Mach et al. 2022) are not at odds, but simply reflect that loop extrusion perturbations impact distances between loop anchors the most. Enhancer-Promoter loops are generally distinct from CTCF-mediated loops (Hsieh et al. 2020, 2022). While (Mach et al. 2022) represents a landmark study in our understanding of the dynamics of genomic folding by loop extrusion, we therefore believe that the locus we chose here - which matches the endogenous MYC architecture - may more accurately represent Enhancer-Promoter dynamics than a synthetic CTCF loop. To better articulate the similarities between model predictions and differences between the two loci, we will simulate a locus matching that of (Mach et al. 2022) in the upcoming revised preprint, and test the sensitivity of contact frequency and duration to in silico cohesin knock-down. This will also serve to extend the generality of our conclusions to different categories of genomic architectures, and the text will be clarified accordingly.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors Fu et al., developed polymer models that combine loop extrusion with attractive interactions to best describe Hi-C population average data. They analyzed Hi-C data of the MYC locus as an example and developed an optimization strategy to extract the parameters that best fit this average Hi-C data.

      Strengths:

      The model has an intuitive nature and the authors masterfully fitted the model to predict relevant biology/Hi-C methodology parameters. This includes loop extrusion parameters, the need for self-interaction with specific energies, and the time and distance parameters expected for Hi-C capture.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) We are no longer in the age in which the community only has access to population average Hi-C. Why was only the population average Hi-C used in this study?

      Can single-cell data: i.e. single-cell Hi-C/Dip-C data or chromatin tracing data (i.e. see Tan et al Science 2018 - for Dip-C, Bintu et al Science 2018, Su et al Cell 2020 for chromatin tracing, etc.) or even 2 color DNA FISH data (used here only as validation) better constrain these models? At the very least the simulations themselves could be used to answer this essential question.

      I am expecting that the single-cell variance and overall distributions of distances between loci might better constrain the models, and the authors should at least comment on it.

      We agree that it is possible to recapitulate single-cell Hi-C or chromatin tracing data with simulations, and that these data modalities have a superior potential to constrain polymer models because they provide an ensemble of single allele structures rather than population-averaged contact frequencies. However, these data remain out of reach for most labs compared to Hi-C. Our goal with this work was to provide an approachable method that anyone interested could deploy on their locus of choice, and reasoned that Hi-C currently remains the data modality available to most. We envision this strategy will help reach labs beyond the small number of groups expert in single cell chromatin architecture, and thus hopefully broaden the impact of polymer simulations in the chromatin organization field.

      Nevertheless, we do agree that the comparison of single-cell chromatin architectures to simulations is a fertile ground for future studies. We will include a brief discussion of the potential of single-cell architectures in an upcoming version of the manuscript.

      (2) The authors claimed "Our parameter optimization can be adapted to build biophysical models of any locus of interest. Despite the model's simplicity, the best-fit simulations are sufficient to predict the contribution of loop extrusion and domain interactions, as well as single-cell variability from Hi-C data. Modeling dynamics enables testing mechanistic relationships between chromatin dynamics and transcription regulation. As more experimental results emerge to define simulation parameters, updates to the model should further increase its power." The focus on the Myc locus in this study is too narrow for this claim. I am expecting at least one more locus for testing the generality of this model.

      We note that we used two distinct loci in the study, the MYC locus in leukemia vs T cells (Figs. 2-3) and a representative locus in experiments comparing WT CTCF with a mutant that leads to loss of a subset of CTCF binding sites (Fig. 1L). To further demonstrate generality, we will add to the upcoming revised preprint a demonstration of the simulation fitting to other loci acquired in different cell types.

      Akgol Oksuz, Betul, Liyan Yang, Sameer Abraham, Sergey V. Venev, Nils Krietenstein, Krishna Mohan Parsi, Hakan Ozadam, et al. 2021. “Systematic Evaluation of Chromosome Conformation Capture Assays.” Nature Methods 18 (9): 1046–55.

      Bintu, Bogdan, Leslie J. Mateo, Jun-Han Su, Nicholas A. Sinnott-Armstrong, Mirae Parker, Seon Kinrot, Kei Yamaya, Alistair N. Boettiger, and Xiaowei Zhuang. 2018. “Super-Resolution Chromatin Tracing Reveals Domains and Cooperative Interactions in Single Cells.” Science 362 (6413). https://doi.org/10.1126/science.aau1783.

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      Cattoni, Diego I., Andrés M. Cardozo Gizzi, Mariya Georgieva, Marco Di Stefano, Alessandro Valeri, Delphine Chamousset, Christophe Houbron, et al. 2017. “Single-Cell Absolute Contact Probability Detection Reveals Chromosomes Are Organized by Multiple Low-Frequency yet Specific Interactions.” Nature Communications 8 (1): 1753.

      Chen, Liang-Fu, Hannah Katherine Long, Minhee Park, Tomek Swigut, Alistair Nicol Boettiger, and Joanna Wysocka. 2022. “Structural Elements Facilitate Extreme Long-Range Gene Regulation at a Human Disease Locus.” bioRxiv. https://doi.org/10.1101/2022.10.20.513057.

      Finn, Elizabeth H., Gianluca Pegoraro, Hugo B. Brandão, Anne-Laure Valton, Marlies E. Oomen, Job Dekker, Leonid Mirny, and Tom Misteli. 2019. “Extensive Heterogeneity and Intrinsic Variation in Spatial Genome Organization.” Cell 176 (6): 1502–15.e10.

      Fudenberg, Geoffrey, and Maxim Imakaev. 2017. “FISH-Ing for Captured Contacts: Towards Reconciling FISH and 3C.” Nature Methods 14 (7): 673–78.

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      Reply to the reviewers

      Reply to reviewer comments

      • *

      We extend our gratitude to the reviewers for their time and valuable feedback on our manuscript. We especially appreciate the insightful suggestions that have significantly contributed to refining our work and elucidating our findings. With the revisions made to the text and the inclusion of new experimental data, we believe our manuscript now effectively addresses all reviewer comments. We eagerly await your evaluation of our revised submission.

      Small ARF-like GTPases play fundamental roles in dynamic signaling processes linked with vesicular trafficking in eukaryotes. Despite of their evolutionary conservation, there is little known about the ARF-like GTPase functions in plants. Our manuscript reports the biochemical and cell biological characterization of the small ARF-like GTPase TTN5 from the model plant Arabidopsis thaliana*. Fundamental investigations like ours are mostly lacking for ARF and ARL GTPases in Arabidopsis. *

      We employed fluorescence-based enzymatic assays suited to uncover different types of the very rapid GTPase activities for TTN5. The experimental findings are now illustrated in a more comprehensive modified Figure 2 and in the form of a summary of the GTPase activities for TTN5 and its mutant variants in the NEW Figure 7A in the Discussion part. Taken together, we found that TTN5 is a non-classical GTPase based on its enzymatic kinetics. The reviewers appreciated these findings and highlighted them as being „impressive in vitro biochemical characterization" and "major conceptual advance". Since such experiments are "uncommon" for being conducted with plant GTPases, reviewers regarded this analysis as "useful addition to the plant community in general". The significance of these findings is given by the circumstance that „the ARF-like proteins are poorly addressed in Arabidopsis while they could reveal completely different function than the canonical known ARF proteins". Reviewers saw here clearly a "strength" of the manuscript.

      With regard to the cell biological investigation and initial assessment of cell physiological roles of TTN5, we now provide requested additional evidence. First of all, we provide NEW data on the localization of TTN5 by immunolocalization using a complementing HA3-TTN5 construct, supporting our initial suggestions that TTN5 may be associated with vesicles and processes of the endomembrane system. The previous preprint version had left the reviewers „less convinced" of cell biological data due to the lack of complementation of our YFP-TTN5 construct, lack of Western blot data and the low resolution of microscopic images. We fully agree that these points were of concern and needed to be addressed. We have therefore intensively worked on these „weaknesses" and present now a more detailed whole-mount immunostaining series with the complementing HA3-TTN5 transgenic line (NEW Figure 4, NEW Figure 3P), Western blot data (NEW Supplementary Figures S7C and D), and we will provide all original images upon publication of our manuscript at BioImage Archives which will provide the high quality for re-analysis. BioImage Archives is an online storage for biological image data associated with a peer-reviewed publication. This way, readers will be able to inspect each image in detail. The immunolocalization data are of particular importance as they indicate that HA3-TTN5 can be associated with punctate vesicle structures and BFA bodies as seen with YFP studies of YFP-TTN5 seedlings. We have re-phrased very carefully and emphasized those localization patterns which are backed up by immunostaining and YFP fluorescence detection of YFP-TTN5 signals. To improve the comprehension, the findings are summarized in a schematic overview in NEW Figure 7B of the Discussion. We have also addressed all other comments related to the cell biological experiments to "provide the substantial improvement" that had been requested. We emphasize that we found two cell physiological phenotypes for the TTN5T30N mutant. YFP-TTN5T30N confers phenotypes, which are differing mobility of the fluorescent vesicles in the epidermis of hypocotyls (see Video material and NEW Supplementary Video Material S1M-O), and a root growth phenotype of transgenic HA3-TTN5T30N seedlings (NEW Figure 3O). We explain the cell physiological phenotypes in relation to enzymatic GTPase data. These findings convince us of the validity of the YFP-TTN5 analysis indicative of TTN5 localization.

      *We are deeply thankful to the reviewers for judging our manuscript as "generally well written", "important" and "of interest to a wide range of plant scientists" and "for scientists working in the trafficking field" as it "holds significance" and will form the basis for future functional studies of TTN5. *

      We prepared very carefully our revised manuscript in which we address all reviewer comments one by one. Please find our revision and our detailed rebuttal to all reviewer comments below. Changes in the revised version are highlighted by yellow and green color. In the "revised version with highlighted changes".

      With these adjustments, we hope that our peer-reviewed study will receive a positive response.

      We are looking forward to your evaluation of our revised manuscript and thank you in advance,

      Sincerely

      Petra Bauer and Inga Mohr on behalf of all authors

      *

      • *

      __Reviewer #1 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)): __

      The manuscript from Mohr and collaborators reports the characterization of an ARF-like GTPase of Arabidopsis. Small GTPases of the ARF family play crucial role in intracellular trafficking and plant physiology. The ARF-like proteins are poorly addressed in Arabidopsis while they could reveal completely different function than the canonical known ARF proteins. Thus, the aim of the study is important and could be of interest to a wide range of plant scientists. I am impressed by the biochemical characterization of the TTN5 protein and its mutated versions, this is clearly a very nice point of the paper and allows for proper interpretations of the other results. However, I was much less convinced on the cell biology part of this manuscript and aside from the subcellular localization of the TTN5 I think the paper would benefit from a more functional angle. Below are my comments to improve the manuscript:

      1- In the different pictures and movies, TTN5 is quite clearly appearing as a typical ER-like pattern. The pattern of localization further extends to dotty-like structures and structures labeled only at the periphery of the structure, with a depletion of fluorescence inside the structure. These observations raise several points. First, the ER pattern is never mentioned in the manuscript while I think it can be clearly observed. Given that the YFP-TTN5 construct is not functional (the mutant phenotype is not rescued) the ER-localization could be due to the retention at the ER due to quality control. The HA-TTN5 construct is functional but to me its localization shows a quite different pattern from the YFP version, I do not see the ER for example or the periphery-labeled structures. In this case, it will be a crucial point to perform co-localization experiments between HA-TTN5 and organelles markers to confirm that the functional TTN5 construct is labeling the Golgi and MVBs, as does the non-functional one. I am also quite sure that a co-localization between YFP-TTN5 and HA-TTN5 will not completely match... The ER is contacting so many organelles that the localization of YFP-TTN5 might not reflects the real location of the protein.

      __Our response: __

      At first, we like to state that specific detection of intracellular localization of plant proteins in plant cells is generally technically very difficult, when the protein abundance is not overly high. In this revised version, we extended immunostaining analysis to different membrane compartments, including now immunostaining of complementing HA3-TTN5 in the absence and presence of BFA, along with immunodetection of ARF1 and FM4-64 labeling in roots (NEW Figure 3P, NEW Figure 4A, B). In the revised version, we focus the analysis and conclusions on the fluorescence patterns that overlap between YFP-TTN5 detection and HA3-TTN5 immunodetection. With this, we can be most confident about subcellular TTN5 localization. Please find this NEW text in the Result section (starting Line 323):

      „For a more detailed investigation of HA3-TTN5 subcellular localization, we then performed co-immunofluorescence staining with an Alexa 488-labeled antibody recognizing the Golgi and TGN marker ARF1, while detecting HA3-TTN5 with an Alexa 555-labeled antibody (Robinson et al. 2011, Singh et al. 2018) (Figure 4A). ARF1-Alexa 488 staining was clearly visible in punctate structures representing presumably Golgi stacks (Figure 4A, Alexa 488), as previously reported (Singh et al. 2018). Similar structures were obtained for HA3-TTN5-Alexa 555 staining (Figure 4A, Alexa 555). But surprisingly, colocalization analysis demonstrated that the HA3-TTN5-labeled structures were mostly not colocalizing and thus distinct from the ARF1-labeled ones (Figure 4A). Yet the HA3-TTN5- and ARF1-labeled structures were in close proximity to each other (Figure 4A). We hypothesized that the HA3-TTN5 structures can be connected to intracellular trafficking steps. To test this, we performed brefeldin A (BFA) treatment, a commonly used tool in cell biology for preventing dynamic membrane trafficking events and vesicle transport involving the Golgi. BFA is a fungal macrocyclic lactone that leads to a loss of cis-cisternae and accumulation of Golgi stacks, known as BFA-induced compartments, up to the fusion of the Golgi with the ER (Ritzenthaler et al. 2002, Wang et al. 2016). For a better identification of BFA bodies, we additionally used the dye FM4-64, which can emit fluorescence in a lipophilic membrane environment. FM4-64 marks the plasma membrane in the first minutes following application to the cell, then may be endocytosed and in the presence of BFA become accumulated in BFA bodies (Bolte et al. 2004). We observed BFA bodies positive for both, HA3-TTN5-Alexa 488 and FM4-64 signals (Figure 4B). Similar patterns were observed for YFP-TTN5-derived signals in YFP-TTN5-expressing roots (Figure 4C). Hence, HA3-TTN5 and YFP-TTN5 can be present in similar subcellular membrane compartments."

      We did not find evidence that HA3-TTN5 can localize at the ER using whole-mount immunostaining (NEW Figure 3P; NEW Figure 4A, B). Hence, we are careful with describing that fluorescence at the ER, as seen in the YFP-TTN5 line (Figure 3M, N) reflects TTN5 localization. We therefore do not focus the text on the ER pattern in the Result section (starting Line 295):

      „Additionally, YFP signals were also detected in a net-like pattern typical for ER localization (Figure 3M, N). (...) We also found multiple YFP bands in α-GFP Western blot analysis using YFP-TTN5 Arabidopsis seedlings. Besides the expected and strong 48 kDa YFP-TTN5 band, we observed three weak bands ranging between 26 to 35 kDa (Supplementary Figure S7C). We cannot explain the presence of these small protein bands. They might correspond to free YFP, to proteolytic products or potentially to proteins produced from aberrant transcripts with perhaps alternative translation start or stop sites. On the other side, a triple hemagglutinin-tagged HA3-TTN5 driven by the 35S promoter did complement the embryo-lethal phenotype of ttn5-1 (Supplementary Figure S7D, E). α-HA Western blot control performed with plant material from HA3-TTN5 seedlings showed a single band at the correct size, but no band that was 13 to 18 kDa smaller (Supplementary Figure S7D). (...) We did not observe any staining in nuclei or ER when performing HA3-TTN5 immunostaining (Figure 3P; Figure 4A, B), as was the case for fluorescence signals in YFP-TTN5-expressing cells. Presumably, this can indicate that either the nuclear and ER signals seen with YFP-TTN5 correspond to the smaller proteins detected, as described above, or that immunostaining was not suited to detect them. Hence, we focused interpretation on patterns of localization overlapping between the fluorescence staining with YFP-labeled TTN5 and with HA3-TTN5 immunostaining, such as the particular signal patterns in the specific punctate membrane structures."

      *And we discuss in the Discussion section (starting Line 552): *

      „We based the TTN5 localization data on tagging approaches with two different detection methods to enhance reliability of specific protein detection. Even though YFP-TTN5 did not complement the embryo-lethality of a ttn5 loss of function mutant, we made several observations that suggest YFP-TTN5 signals to be meaningful at various membrane sites. We do not know why YFP-TTN5 does not complement. There could be differences in TTN5 levels and interactions in some cell types, which were hindering specifically YFP-TTN5 but not HA3-TTN5. (...) Though constitutively driven, the YFP-TTN5 expression may be delayed or insufficient at the early embryonic stages resulting in the lack of embryo-lethal complementation. On the other hand, the very fast nucleotide exchange activity may be hindered by the presence of a large YFP-tag in comparison with the small HA3-tag which is able to rescue the embryo-lethality. The lack of complementation represents a challenge for the localization of small GTPases with rapid nucleotide exchange in plants. Despite of these limitations, we made relevant observations in our data that made us believe that YFP signals in YFP-TTN5-expressing cells at membrane sites can be meaningful."

      2- What are the structures with TTN5 fluorescence depleted at the center that appear in control conditions? They look different from the Golgi labeled by Man1 but similar to MVBs upon wortmannin treatment, except that in control conditions MVBs never appear like this. Are they related to any kind of vacuolar structures that would be involved in quality control-induced degradation of non-functional proteins?

      Our response:

      The reviewer certainly refers to fluorescence images from N. benthamiana leaf epidermal cells where different circularly shaped structures are visible. In these respective structures, the fluorescent circles are depleted from fluorescence in the center, e.g. in Figure 5C, YFP- fluorescent signals in TTN5T30N transformed leaf discs. We suspect that these structures can be of vacuolar origin as described for similar fluorescent rings in Tichá et al., 2020 for ANNI-GFP (reference in manuscript). The reviewer certainly does not refer to swollen MVBs that are seen following wortmannin treatment, as in Figure 5N-P, which look similar in their shape but are larger in size. Please note that we always included the control conditions, namely the images recorded before the wortmannin treatment, so that we were able to investigate the changes induced by wortmannin. Hence, we can clearly say that the structures with depleted fluorescence in the center as in Figure 5C are not wortmannin-induced swollen MVBs.To make these points clear to the reader, we added an explanation into the text (Line 385-388):

      „We also observed YFP fluorescence signals in the form of circularly shaped ring structures with a fluorescence-depleted center. These structures can be of vacuolar origin as described for similar fluorescent rings in Tichá et al. (2020) for ANNI-GFP."

      3- The fluorescence at nucleus could be due to a proportion of YFP-TTN5 that is degraded and released free-GFP, a western-blot of the membrane fraction vs the cytosolic fraction could help solving this issue.

      Our response:

      In an α-GFP Western blot using YFP-TTN5 Arabidopsis seedlings, we detected besides the expected and strong 48 kDa YFP-TTN5 band, three additional weak bands ranging between 26 to 35 kDa (NEW Supplementary Figure S7C). We cannot explain the presence of these small protein bands. They might correspond to free YFP, to proteolytic products or potentially to proteins expressed from aberrant transcripts. α-HA Western blot controls performed with plant material from HA3-TTN5 seedlings showed a single band at the correct size (Supplementary Figure S7D). We must therefore be cautious about nuclear TTN5 localization and we rephrased the text carefully (starting Line 300):

      „We also found multiple YFP bands in α-GFP Western blot analysis using YFP-TTN5 Arabidopsis seedlings. Besides the expected and strong 48 kDa YFP-TTN5 band, we observed three weak bands ranging between 26 to 35 kDa (Supplementary Figure S7C). We cannot explain the presence of these small protein bands. They might correspond to free YFP, to proteolytic products or potentially to proteins produced from aberrant transcripts with perhaps alternative translation start or stop sites. On the other side, a triple hemagglutinin-tagged HA3-TTN5 driven by the 35S promoter did complement the embryo-lethal phenotype of ttn5-1 (Supplementary Figure S7D, E). α-HA Western blot control performed with plant material from HA3-TTN5 seedlings showed a single band at the correct size, but no band that was 13 to 18 kDa smaller (Supplementary Figure S7D). (...) We did not observe any staining in nuclei or ER when performing HA3-TTN5 immunostaining (Figure 3P; Figure 4A, B), as was the case for fluorescence signals in YFP-TTN5-expressing cells. Presumably, this can indicate that either the nuclear and ER signals seen with YFP-TTN5 correspond to the smaller proteins detected, as described above, or that immunostaining was not suited to detect them. Hence, we focused interpretation on patterns of localization overlapping between the fluorescence staining with YFP-labeled TTN5 and with HA3-TTN5 immunostaining, such as the particular signal patterns in the specific punctate membrane structures."

      4- It is not so easy to conclude from the co-localization experiments. The confocal pictures are not always of high quality, some of them appear blurry. The Golgi localization looks convincing, but the BFA experiments are not that clear. The MVB localization is pretty convincing but the images are blurry. An issue is the quantification of the co-localizations. Several methods were employed but they do not provide consistent results. As for the object-based co-localization method, the authors employ in the text co-localization result either base on the % of YFP-labeled structures or the % of mCherry/mRFP-labeled structures, but the results are not going always in the same direction. For example, the proportion of YFP-TTN5 that co-localize with MVBs is not so different between WT and mutated version but the proportion of MVBs that co-localize with TTN5 is largely increased in the Q70L mutant. Thus it is quite difficult to interpret homogenously and in an unbiased way these results. Moreover, the results coming from the centroid-based method were presented in a table rather than a graph, I think here the authors wanted to hide the huge standard deviation of these results, what is the statistical meaning of these results?

      Our response:

      First of all, we like to point out that, as explained above, the BFA experiments are now more clear. We performed additional BFA treatment coupled with immunostaining using HA3-TTN5-expressing Arabidopsis seedlings and coupled with fluorescence analysis using YFP-TTN5-expressing Arabidopsis plants. In both experiments, we observed the typical BFA bodies very clearly (NEW Figure 4B, C).

      Second, we like to insist that we performed colocalization very carefully and quantified the data in three different manners. We like to state that there is no general standardized procedure that best suits the idea of a colocalization pattern. Results of colocalization are represented in stem diagrams and table format, including statistical analysis. Colocalization was carried out with the ImageJ plugin JACoP for Pearson's and Overlap coefficients and based on the centroid method. The plotted Pearson's and Overlap coefficients are presented in bar diagrams in Supplementary Figure S8A and C, including statistics. The obtained values by the centroid method are represented in table format in Supplementary Figure S8B and D, which *can be considered a standard method (see Ivanov et al., 2014). *

      Colocalization of two different fluorescence signals was performed for the two channels in a specific chosen region of interest (indicating in % the overlapping signal versus the sum of signal for each channel). The differences between the YFP/mRFP and mRFP/YFP ratios indicate that a higher percentage of ARA7-RFP signal is colocalizing with YFP-TTN5Q70L signal than with the TTN5WT or the TTN5T30N mutant form signals, while the YFP signals have a similar overlap with ARA7-positive structures. This is not a contradiction. Presumably this answers well the questions on colocalization.

      Please note that upon acceptance for publication, we will upload all original colocalization data to BioImage Archive. Hence, the high-quality data can be reanalyzed by readers.

      5- The use of FM4-64 to address the vacuolar trafficking is a hazardous, FM4-64 allows the tracking of endocytosis but does not say anything on vacuolar degradation targeting and even less on the potential function of TTN5 in endosomal vacuolar targeting. Similarly, TTN5, even if localized at the Golgi, is not necessarily function in Golgi-trafficking. __Our response: __

      *Perhaps our previous description was misleading. Thank you for pointing this out. We reformulated the text and modified the schematic representation of FM4-64 in NEW Figure 6A: *

      "(A), Schematic representation of progressive stages of FM4-64 localization and internalization in a cell. FM4-64 is a lipophilic substance. After infiltration, it first localizes in the plasma membrane, at later stages it localizes to intracellular vesicles and membrane compartments. This localization pattern reflects the endocytosis process (Bolte et al. 2004)."

      6- The manuscript lacks in its present shape of functional evidences for a role of TTN5 in any trafficking steps. I understand that the KO mutant is lethal but what are the phenotypes of the Q70L and T30N mutant plants? What is the seedling phenotype, how are the Golgi and MVBs looking like in these mutants? Do the Q70L or T30N mutants perturbed the trafficking of any cargos?

      __Our response: __

      *We agree fully that functional evidences are interesting to assign roles for TTN5 in trafficking steps. A phenotype associated with TTN5T30N and TTN5Q70L is clearly meaningful. *

      First of all, we like to emphasize that it is incorrect that the manuscript lacks functional evidences for a role of TTN5 and the two mutants. In fact, the manuscript even highlights several functional activities that are meaningful in a cellular context. These include different types of kinetic GTPase enzyme activities, subcellular localization in planta and association with different endomembrane compartments and subcellular processes such as endocytosis. We surely agree that future research can focus even more on cell physiological aspects and the physiological functions in plants to examine the proposed roles of TTN5 in intracellular trafficking steps. For such studies, our findings are the fundamental basis.

      Concerning the aspect of colocalization of the mutants with the markers we show in Figure 5C, D and G, H that YFP-TTN5T30N- and YFP-TTN5Q70L-related signals colocalize with the Golgi marker GmMan1-mCherry. Figure 5K, L and O, P show that YFP-TTN5T30N and YFP-TTN5Q70L-related signals can colocalize with the MVB marker, and this may affect relevant vesicle trafficking processes and plasma membrane protein regulation involved in root cell elongation.

      *At present, we have not yet investigated perturbed cargo trafficking. These aspects are certainly interesting but require extensive work and testing of appropriate physiological conditions and appropriate cargo targets. We discuss future perspectives in the Discussion. We agree that such functional information is of great importance, but needs to be clarified in future studies. *

      __Reviewer #1 (Significance (Required)): __

      In conclusion, I think this manuscript is a good biochemical description of an ARF-like protein but it would need to be strengthen on the cell biology and functional sides. Nonetheless, provided these limitations fixed, this manuscript would advance our knowledge of small GTPases in plants. The major conceptual advance of that study is to provide a non-canonical behavior of the active/inactive cycle dynamics for a small-GTPase. Of course this dynamic probably has an impact on TTN5 function and involvement in trafficking, although this remains to be fully demonstrated. Provided a substantial amount of additional experiments to support the claims of that study, this study could be of general interest for scientist working in the trafficking field.

      __Our response: __

      We thank reviewer 1 for the very fruitful comments. We hope that with the additional experiments, NEW Figures and NEW Supplementary Figures as well as our changes in the text, all comments by the reviewer have been addressed.

      __Reviewer #2 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)): __

      The manuscript by Mohr and colleagues characterizes the Arabidopsis predicted small GTPase TITAN5 in both biochemical and cell biology contexts using in vitro and in planta techniques. In the first half of the manuscript, the authors use in vitro nucleotide exchange assays to characterise the GTPase activity and nucleotide binding properties of TITAN5 and two mutant variants of it. The in vitro data they produce indicates that TITAN5 does indeed have general GTPase and nucleotide binding capability that would be expected for a protein predicted to be a small GTPase. Interestingly, the authors show that TITAN5 favors a GTP-bound form, which is different to many other characterized GTPases that favor GDP-binding. The authors follow their biochemical characterisation of TITAN with in planta experiments characterizing TITAN5 and its mutant variants association with the plant endomembrane system, both by stable expression in Arabidopsis and transient expression in N.benthamiana.

      The strength of this manuscript is in its in vitro biochemical characterisation of TITAN5 and variants. I am not an expert on in vitro GTPase characterisation and so cannot comment specifically on the assays they have used, but generally speaking this appears to have been well done, and the authors are to be commended for it. In vitro characterisation of plant small GTPases is uncommon, and much of our knowledge is inferred for work on animal or yeast GTPases, so this will be a useful addition to the plant community in general, especially as TITAN5 is an essential gene. The in planta data that follows is sadly not as compelling as the biochemical data, and suffers from several weaknesses. I would encourage the authors to consider trying to improve the quality of the in planta data in general. If improved and then combined with the biochemical aspects of the paper, this has the potential to make a nice addition to plant small GTPase and endomembrane literature.

      The manuscript is generally well written and includes the relevant literature.

      Major issues:

      1. The authors make use of a p35s: YFP-TTN5 construct (and its mutant variants) both stably in Arabidopsis and transiently in N.benthamiana. I know from personal experience that expressing small GTPases from non-endogenous promoters and in transient expression systems can give very different results to when working from endogenous promoters/using immunolocalization in stable expression systems. Strong over-expression could for example explain why the authors see high 'cytosolic' levels of YFP-TTN5. It is therefore questionable how much of the in planta localisation data presented using p35S and expression in tobacco is of true relevance to the biological function of TITAN5. The authors do present some immunolocalization data of HA3-TTN5 in Arabidopsis, but this is fairly limited and it is very difficult in its current form to use this to identify whether the data from YFP-TTN5 in Arabidopsis and tobacco can be corroborated. I would encourage the authors to consider expanding the immunolocalization data they present to validate their findings in tobacco. __Our response: __

      We are aware that endogenous promoters may be preferred over 35S promoter. However, the two types of lines we generated with endogenous promoter did both not show fluorescent signals so that we could unfortunately not use them (not shown). Besides 35S promoter-mediated expression we were also investigating inducible expression vectors for fluorescence imaging in N. benthamiana (not shown). Both inducible and constitutive expression showed very similar expression patterns so that we chose characterizing in detail the 35S::YFP-TTN5 fluorescence in both N. bethamiana*and Arabidopsis. *

      We have expanded immunolocalization using the HA3-TTN5 line and compare it now along with YFP fluorescence signal in YFP-TTN5 seedlings (NEW Figure 3P; NEW Figure 4).

      „For a more detailed investigation of HA3-TTN5 subcellular localization, we then performed co-immunofluorescence staining with an Alexa 488-labeled antibody recognizing the Golgi and TGN marker ARF1, while detecting HA3-TTN5 with an Alexa 555-labeled antibody (Robinson et al. 2011, Singh et al. 2018) (Figure 4A). ARF1-Alexa 488 staining was clearly visible in punctate structures representing presumably Golgi stacks (Figure 4A, Alexa 488), as previously reported (Singh et al. 2018). Similar structures were obtained for HA3-TTN5-Alexa 555 staining (Figure 4A, Alexa 555). But surprisingly, colocalization analysis demonstrated that the HA3-TTN5-labeled structures were mostly not colocalizing and thus distinct from the ARF1-labeled ones (Figure 4A). Yet the HA3-TTN5- and ARF1-labeled structures were in close proximity to each other (Figure 4A). We hypothesized that the HA3-TTN5 structures can be connected to intracellular trafficking steps. To test this, we performed brefeldin A (BFA) treatment, a commonly used tool in cell biology for preventing dynamic membrane trafficking events and vesicle transport involving the Golgi. BFA is a fungal macrocyclic lactone that leads to a loss of cis-cisternae and accumulation of Golgi stacks, known as BFA-induced compartments, up to the fusion of the Golgi with the ER (Ritzenthaler et al. 2002, Wang et al. 2016). For a better identification of BFA bodies, we additionally used the dye FM4-64, which can emit fluorescence in a lipophilic membrane environment. FM4-64 marks the plasma membrane in the first minutes following application to the cell, then may be endocytosed and in the presence of BFA become accumulated in BFA bodies (Bolte et al. 2004). We observed BFA bodies positive for both, HA3-TTN5-Alexa 488 and FM4-64 signals (Figure 4B). Similar patterns were observed for YFP-TTN5-derived signals in YFP-TTN5-expressing roots (Figure 4C). Hence, HA3-TTN5 and YFP-TTN5 can be present in similar subcellular membrane compartments."

      • *

      Many of the confocal images presented are of poor quality, particularly those from N.benthamiana.

      Our response:

      All confocal images are of high quality in their original format. To make them accessible, we will upload all raw data to BioImage Archive upon acceptance of the manuscript.

      The authors in some places see YFP-TTN5 in cell nuclei. This could be a result of YFP-cleavage rather than genuine nuclear localisation of YFP-TTN5, but the authors do not present western blots to check for this.

      __Our response: __

      As described in our response to reviewer 1, comment 3, Fluorescence signals were detected within the nuclei of root cells of YFP-TTN5 plants, while immunostaining signals of HA3-TTN5 were not detected in the nucleus. In an α-GFP Western blot using YFP-TTN5 Arabidopsis seedlings, we detected besides the expected and strong 48 kDa YFP-TTN5 band, three additional weak bands ranging between 26 to 35 kDa (NEW Supplementary Figure S7C). We cannot explain the presence of these small protein bands. They might correspond to free YFP, to proteolytic products or potentially to proteins expressed from aberrant transcripts. α-HA Western blot controls performed with plant material from HA3-TTN5 seedlings showed a single band at the correct size (Supplementary Figure S7D). We must therefore be cautious about nuclear TTN5 localization and we rephrased the text carefully (starting Line 300):

      • *

      „We also found multiple YFP bands in α-GFP Western blot analysis using YFP-TTN5 Arabidopsis seedlings. Besides the expected and strong 48 kDa YFP-TTN5 band, we observed three weak bands ranging between 26 to 35 kDa (Supplementary Figure S7C). We cannot explain the presence of these small protein bands. They might correspond to free YFP, to proteolytic products or potentially to proteins produced from aberrant transcripts with perhaps alternative translation start or stop sites. On the other side, a triple hemagglutinin-tagged HA3-TTN5 driven by the 35S promoter did complement the embryo-lethal phenotype of ttn5-1 (Supplementary Figure S7D, E). α-HA Western blot control performed with plant material from HA3-TTN5 seedlings showed a single band at the correct size, but no band that was 13 to 18 kDa smaller (Supplementary Figure S7D). (...) We did not observe any staining in nuclei or ER when performing HA3-TTN5 immunostaining (Figure 3P; Figure 4A, B), as was the case for fluorescence signals in YFP-TTN5-expressing cells. Presumably, this can indicate that either the nuclear and ER signals seen with YFP-TTN5 correspond to the smaller proteins detected, as described above, or that immunostaining was not suited to detect them. Hence, we focused interpretation on patterns of localization overlapping between the fluorescence staining with YFP-labeled TTN5 and with HA3-TTN5 immunostaining, such as the particular signal patterns in the specific punctate membrane structures."

      That YFP-TTN5 fails to rescue the ttn5 mutant indicates that YFP-tagged TTN5 may not be functional. If the authors cannot corroborate the YFP-TTN5 localisation pattern with that of HA3-TTN5 via immunolocalization, then the fact that YFP-TTN5 may not be functional calls into question the biological relevance of YFP-TTN5's localisation pattern.

      __Our response: __

      This refers to your comment 1, please check this comment for a detailed response. Please also see our answer to reviewer 1, comment 1.

      At first, we like to state that specific detection of intracellular localization of plant proteins in plant cells is generally technically very difficult, when the protein abundance is not overly high. In this revised version, we extended immunostaining analysis to different membrane compartments, including now immunostaining of complementing HA3-TTN5 in the absence and presence of BFA, along with immunodetection of ARF1 and FM4-64 labeling in roots (NEW Figure 3P, NEW Figure 4A, B). In the revised version, we focus the analysis and conclusions on the fluorescence patterns that overlap between YFP-TTN5 detection and HA3-TTN5 immunodetection. With this, we can be most confident about subcellular TTN5 localization. Please find this NEW text in the Result section (starting Line 323):

      „For a more detailed investigation of HA3-TTN5 subcellular localization, we then performed co-immunofluorescence staining with an Alexa 488-labeled antibody recognizing the Golgi and TGN marker ARF1, while detecting HA3-TTN5 with an Alexa 555-labeled antibody (Robinson et al. 2011, Singh et al. 2018) (Figure 4A). ARF1-Alexa 488 staining was clearly visible in punctate structures representing presumably Golgi stacks (Figure 4A, Alexa 488), as previously reported (Singh et al. 2018). Similar structures were obtained for HA3-TTN5-Alexa 555 staining (Figure 4A, Alexa 555). But surprisingly, colocalization analysis demonstrated that the HA3-TTN5-labeled structures were mostly not colocalizing and thus distinct from the ARF1-labeled ones (Figure 4A). Yet the HA3-TTN5- and ARF1-labeled structures were in close proximity to each other (Figure 4A). We hypothesized that the HA3-TTN5 structures can be connected to intracellular trafficking steps. To test this, we performed brefeldin A (BFA) treatment, a commonly used tool in cell biology for preventing dynamic membrane trafficking events and vesicle transport involving the Golgi. BFA is a fungal macrocyclic lactone that leads to a loss of cis-cisternae and accumulation of Golgi stacks, known as BFA-induced compartments, up to the fusion of the Golgi with the ER (Ritzenthaler et al. 2002, Wang et al. 2016). For a better identification of BFA bodies, we additionally used the dye FM4-64, which can emit fluorescence in a lipophilic membrane environment. FM4-64 marks the plasma membrane in the first minutes following application to the cell, then may be endocytosed and in the presence of BFA become accumulated in BFA bodies (Bolte et al. 2004). We observed BFA bodies positive for both, HA3-TTN5-Alexa 488 and FM4-64 signals (Figure 4B). Similar patterns were observed for YFP-TTN5-derived signals in YFP-TTN5-expressing roots (Figure 4C). Hence, HA3-TTN5 and YFP-TTN5 can be present in similar subcellular membrane compartments."

      We did not find evidence that HA3-TTN5 can localize at the ER using whole-mount immunostaining (NEW Figure 3P; NEW Figure 4A, B). Hence, we are careful with describing that fluorescence at the ER, as seen in the YFP-TTN5 line (Figure 3M, N) reflects TTN5 localization. We therefore do not focus the text on the ER pattern in the Result section (starting Line 295):

      „Additionally, YFP signals were also detected in a net-like pattern typical for ER localization (Figure 3M, N). (...) We also found multiple YFP bands in α-GFP Western blot analysis using YFP-TTN5 Arabidopsis seedlings. Besides the expected and strong 48 kDa YFP-TTN5 band, we observed three weak bands ranging between 26 to 35 kDa (Supplementary Figure S7C). We cannot explain the presence of these small protein bands. They might correspond to free YFP, to proteolytic products or potentially to proteins produced from aberrant transcripts with perhaps alternative translation start or stop sites. On the other side, a triple hemagglutinin-tagged HA3-TTN5 driven by the 35S promoter did complement the embryo-lethal phenotype of ttn5-1 (Supplementary Figure S7D, E). α-HA Western blot control performed with plant material from HA3-TTN5 seedlings showed a single band at the correct size, but no band that was 13 to 18 kDa smaller (Supplementary Figure S7D). (...) We did not observe any staining in nuclei or ER when performing HA3-TTN5 immunostaining (Figure 3P; Figure 4A, B), as was the case for fluorescence signals in YFP-TTN5-expressing cells. Presumably, this can indicate that either the nuclear and ER signals seen with YFP-TTN5 correspond to the smaller proteins detected, as described above, or that immunostaining was not suited to detect them. Hence, we focused interpretation on patterns of localization overlapping between the fluorescence staining with YFP-labeled TTN5 and with HA3-TTN5 immunostaining, such as the particular signal patterns in the specific punctate membrane structures."

      *And we discuss in the Discussion section (starting Line 552): *

      „We based the TTN5 localization data on tagging approaches with two different detection methods to enhance reliability of specific protein detection. Even though YFP-TTN5 did not complement the embryo-lethality of a ttn5 loss of function mutant, we made several observations that suggest YFP-TTN5 signals to be meaningful at various membrane sites. We do not know why YFP-TTN5 does not complement. There could be differences in TTN5 levels and interactions in some cell types, which were hindering specifically YFP-TTN5 but not HA3-TTN5. (...) Though constitutively driven, the YFP-TTN5 expression may be delayed or insufficient at the early embryonic stages resulting in the lack of embryo-lethal complementation. On the other hand, the very fast nucleotide exchange activity may be hindered by the presence of a large YFP-tag in comparison with the small HA3-tag which is able to rescue the embryo-lethality. The lack of complementation represents a challenge for the localization of small GTPases with rapid nucleotide exchange in plants. Despite of these limitations, we made relevant observations in our data that made us believe that YFP signals in YFP-TTN5-expressing cells at membrane sites can be meaningful."

      • *

      Without a cell wall label/dye, the plasmolysis data presented in Figure 5 is hard to visualize.

      __Our response: __

      Figure 6E-G (previously Fig. 5) show the results of plasmolysis experiments with YFP-TTN5 and the two mutant variant constructs. It is clearly possible to observe plasmolysis when focusing on the Hechtian strands. Hechtian strands are formed due to the retraction of the protoplast as a result of the osmotic pressure by the added mannitol solution. Hechtian strands consist of PM which remained in contact with the cell wall, visible as thin filamental structures. We stained the PM and the Hechtian strands by the PM dye FM4-64. This is similary done in Yoneda et al., 2020. We could detect in the YFP-TTN5-transformed cells, colocalization with the YFP channels and the PM dye in filamental structures between two neighbouring FM4-64-labelled PMs. Although an additional labeling of the cell wall may further indicate plasmolysis, it is not needed here.

      Please consider that we will upload all original image data to BioImage Archive so that a detailed re-investigation of the images can be done.

      • *

      __Minor issues: __

      In some of the presented N.benthamiana images, it looks like YFP-TTN5 may be partially ER-localised. However, co-localisation with an ER marker is not presented.

      Our response:

      *Referring to our response to comments 1 and 3 of reviewer 2 and to comment 1 of reviewer 1: *

      We did not find evidence that HA3-TTN5 can localize at the ER using whole-mount immunostaining (NEW Figure 3P; NEW Figure 4A, B). Hence, we are careful with describing that fluorescence at the ER, as seen in the YFP-TTN5 line (Figure 3M, N) reflects TTN5 localization. We therefore do not focus the text on the ER pattern in the Result section (starting Line 295):

      „Additionally, YFP signals were also detected in a net-like pattern typical for ER localization (Figure 3M, N). (...) We also found multiple YFP bands in α-GFP Western blot analysis using YFP-TTN5 Arabidopsis seedlings. Besides the expected and strong 48 kDa YFP-TTN5 band, we observed three weak bands ranging between 26 to 35 kDa (Supplementary Figure S7C). We cannot explain the presence of these small protein bands. They might correspond to free YFP, to proteolytic products or potentially to proteins produced from aberrant transcripts with perhaps alternative translation start or stop sites. On the other side, a triple hemagglutinin-tagged HA3-TTN5 driven by the 35S promoter did complement the embryo-lethal phenotype of ttn5-1 (Supplementary Figure S7D, E). α-HA Western blot control performed with plant material from HA3-TTN5 seedlings showed a single band at the correct size, but no band that was 13 to 18 kDa smaller (Supplementary Figure S7D). (...) We did not observe any staining in nuclei or ER when performing HA3-TTN5 immunostaining (Figure 3P; Figure 4A, B), as was the case for fluorescence signals in YFP-TTN5-expressing cells. Presumably, this can indicate that either the nuclear and ER signals seen with YFP-TTN5 correspond to the smaller proteins detected, as described above, or that immunostaining was not suited to detect them. Hence, we focused interpretation on patterns of localization overlapping between the fluorescence staining with YFP-labeled TTN5 and with HA3-TTN5 immunostaining, such as the particular signal patterns in the specific punctate membrane structures."

      *And we discuss in the Discussion section (starting Line 552): *

      „We based the TTN5 localization data on tagging approaches with two different detection methods to enhance reliability of specific protein detection. Even though YFP-TTN5 did not complement the embryo-lethality of a ttn5 loss of function mutant, we made several observations that suggest YFP-TTN5 signals to be meaningful at various membrane sites. We do not know why YFP-TTN5 does not complement. There could be differences in TTN5 levels and interactions in some cell types, which were hindering specifically YFP-TTN5 but not HA3-TTN5. (...) Though constitutively driven, the YFP-TTN5 expression may be delayed or insufficient at the early embryonic stages resulting in the lack of embryo-lethal complementation. On the other hand, the very fast nucleotide exchange activity may be hindered by the presence of a large YFP-tag in comparison with the small HA3-tag which is able to rescue the embryo-lethality. The lack of complementation represents a challenge for the localization of small GTPases with rapid nucleotide exchange in plants. Despite of these limitations, we made relevant observations in our data that made us believe that YFP signals in YFP-TTN5-expressing cells at membrane sites can be meaningful."

      • *

      There is some inconsistency within the N.benthamiana images. For example, compare Figure 4C of YFP-TTN5T30N to Figure 4O of YFP-TTN5T30N. Figure 4O is presented as being significant because wortmannin-induced swollen ARA7 compartments are labelled by YFP-TTN5T30N. However, structures very similar to these can already been seen in Figure 4C, which is apparently an unrelated experiment. This, to my mind, is likely a result of the very different expression levels between different cells that can be produced by transient expression in N.benthamiana.

      __Our response: __

      Former Figure 4 is now Figure 5. As detailed in our response to comment 2 of reviewer 1:

      The reviewer certainly refers to fluorescence images from N. benthamiana leaf epidermal cells where different circularly shaped structures are visible. In these respective structures, the fluorescent circles are depleted from fluorescence in the center, e.g. in Figure 5C, YFP- fluorescent signals in TTN5T30N transformed leaf discs. We suspect that these structures can be of vacuolar origin as described for similar fluorescent rings in Tichá et al., 2020 for ANNI-GFP (reference in manuscript). The reviewer certainly does not refer to swollen MVBs that are seen following wortmannin treatment, as in Figure 5N-P, which look similar in their shape but are larger in size. Please note that we always included the control conditions, namely the images recorded before the wortmannin treatment, so that we were able to investigate the changes induced by wortmannin. Hence, we can clearly say that the structures with depleted fluorescence in the center as in Figure 5C are not wortmannin-induced swollen MVBs.To make these points clear to the reader, we added an explanation into the text (Line 385-388):

      „We also observed YFP fluorescence signals in the form of circularly shaped ring structures with a fluorescence-depleted center. These structures can be of vacuolar origin as described for similar fluorescent rings in Tichá et al. (2020) for ANNI-GFP."

      **Referees cross-commenting**

      It sems that all of the reviewers have converged on the conclusion that the in planta characterisation of TTN5 is insufficient to be of substantial interest to the field, highlighting the fact that major improvements are required to strengthen this part of the manuscript and increase its relevance.

      __Reviewer #2 (Significance (Required)): __

      General assessment: the strengths of this work are in its in vitro characterisation of TITAN5, however, the in planta characterisation lacks depth.

      Significance: the in vitro characterisation of TITAN5 is commendable as such work is lacking for plant GTPases. However, the significance of the work would be boosted substantially by better in planta characterisation, which is where most the most broad interest will lie.

      My expertise: my expertise is in in planta characterisation of small GTPases and their interactors.

      __Our response: __

      We thank the reviewer for the kind evaluation of our manuscript. We are confident that the changes in the text and NEW Figures and NEW Supplementary Figures will be convincing to consider our work.

      __Reviewer #3 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)): __

      Summary: Cellular traffic is an important and well-studied biological process in animal and plant systems. While components involved in transport are known the mechanism by which these components control activity or destination remains to be studied. A critical step in regulating traffic is proper budding and tethering of vesicles. A critical component in determining this step is a family proteins with GTPase activity, which act as switches facilitating vesicle interaction between proteins, or cytoskeleton. The current manuscript by Mohr and colleagues have characterized a small GTPase TITAN5 (TTN5) and identified two residues Gln70 and Thr30 in the protein which they propose to have functional roles. The authors catalogue the localization, GTP hydrolytic activity, and discuss putative functions of TTN5 and the mutants.

      __Major comments: __

      The core of the manuscript, which is descriptive characterization of TTN5, lies in reliably demonstrating putative roles. While the GTP hydrolysis rates are well-quantified (though the claims need to be toned down), the microscopy data especially the association of TTN5 with different endomembrane compartments is not convincing due to the quality (low resolution) of the figures submitted. The manuscript text is difficult to navigate due to repetition and inconsistency in the order that the mutants are referred. I am requesting additional experiments which should be feasible considering the authors have all the materials required to perform the experiments and obtain high-quality images which support their claims.

      In general the figure quality needs to be improved for all microscopy images. I would suggest that the authors highlight 1-2 individual cells to make their point and use the current images as supplementary to establish a broader spread. __Our response: __

      *We have worked substantially on the text and figures to make the content well comprehensive. The mutants are referred to in a consistent manner in the text and figures. We have addressed requested experiments. *

      As we pointed out in the cover letter and our responses to reviewers 1 and 2, we will upload all raw image data to BioImage Archive upon acceptance of the manuscript so that they can be re-examined without any reduction of resolution. Furthermore, we have conducted new experiments on immunolocalization of HA3-TTN5 (NEW Figure 3P, NEW Figure 4A, B). The text has been improved in several places (see highlighted changes in the manuscript and as detailed in the responses to reviewer 1. We think, this addresses well the reviewers' concerns.

      Fig. S1 lacks clarity. __Our response: __

      Supplementary Figure S1 shows TTN5 gene expression in different organs and growing stages as revealed by transcriptomic data, made available through the AtGenExpress eFB tool of the Bio-Analytic Resource for Plant Biology (BAR). The figure visualizes that TTN5 is ubiquitously expressed in different plant organs and tissues, e.g. the epidermis layers that we investigated here, and throughout development including embryo development. In accordance with the embryo-lethal phenotype, this highlights well that TTN5* is needed throughout for plant growth and it emphasizes that our investigation of TTN5 localization in epidermis cells is valid. *

      We have added a better description to the figure legend. We now also mention the respective publications from which the transcriptome data-sets are derived. The modified figure legend is:

      "Supplementary Figure S1. Visualization of TTN5 gene expression levels during plant development based on transcriptome data. Expression levels in (A), different types of aerial organs at different developmental stages; from left to right and bottom to top are represented different seed and plant growth stages, flower development stages, different leaves, vegetative to inflorescence shoot apex, embryo and silique development stages; (B), seedling root tissues based on single cell analysis represented in form of a uniform manifold approximation and projection plot; (C), successive stages of embryo development. As shown in (A) to (C), TTN5 is ubiquitously expressed in these different plant organs and tissues. In particular, it should be noted that TTN5 transcripts were detectable in the epidermis cell layer of roots that we used for localization of tagged TTN5 protein in this study. In accordance with the embryo-lethal phenotype, the ubiquitous expression of TTN5 highlights its importance for plant growth. Original data were derived from (Nakabayashi et al. 2005, Schmid et al. 2005) (A); (Ryu et al. 2019) (B); (Waese et al. 2017) (C). Gene expression levels are indicated by local maximum color code, ranging from the minimum (no expression) in yellow to the maximum (highest expression) in red."

      For the supplementary videos, it is difficult to determine if punctate structures are moving or is it cytoplasmic streaming? Could this be done with a co-localized marker? Considering that such markers have been used later in Fig. 4? __Our response: __

      We had detected movement of YFP fluorescent structures in all analyzed YFP-TTN5 plant parts except the root tip. Movement of fluorescence signals in YFP-TTN5T30N seedlings was slowed in hypocotyl epidermis cells. To answer the reviewer comment, we added three NEW supplemental videos (NEW Supplementary Video Material S1M-O) generated with all the three YFP-TTN5 constructs imaged over time in N. benthamiana leaf epidermal cells upon colocalization with the cis-Golgi marker GmMan1-mCherry as requested by the reviewer. In these NEW videos, some of *the YFP fluorescent spots seem to move together with the Golgi stacks. GmMan1 is described with a stop-and-go directed movement mediated by the actino-myosin system (Nebenführ 1999) and similarly it might be the case for YFP-TTN5 signals based on the colocalization. *

      • *

      It would be good if the speed of movement is quantified, if the authors want to retain the current claims in results and the discussion. __Our response: __

      *We describe a difference in the movement of YFP fluorescent signal for the YFP-TTN5T30N variant in the hypocotyl compared to YFP-TTN5 and YFP-TTN5Q70L. In hypocotyl cells, we could observe a slowed down or arrested movement specifically of YFP-TTN5T30N fluorescent structures, and we describe this in the Results section (Line 278-291). *

      "Interestingly, the mobility of these punctate structures differed within the cells when the mutant YFP-TTN5T30N was observed in hypocotyl epidermis cells, but not in the leaf epidermis cells (Supplementary Video Material S1E, compare with S1B) nor was it the case for the YFP-TTN5Q70L mutant (Supplementary Video Material S1F, compare with S1E)."

      *The slowed movement in the YFP-TTN5T30N mutant is well visible even without quantification. We checked that the manuscript text does not contain overstatements in this regard. *

      • *

      Fig.2 I am not sure what the unit / scale is in Fig. 2D/E if each parameter (Kon, Koff, and Kd) are individually plotted? Could the authors please clarify/simplify this panel?

      __Our response: __

      We presented kinetics for nucleotide association (kon) and dissociation (koff) and the dissociation constant (Kd) in a bar diagram for each nucleotide, mdGDP (Figure 2D) and mGppNHp (Figure 2E). We modified and relabeled the bar diagram representation. It should be now very clear which are the parameters and units. Please see also the other modified figures (NEW modified Figure 2A-H). We also modified the legend of Figure 2D and E:

      "(D-E), Kinetics of association and dissociation of fluorescent nucleotides mdGDP (D) or mGppNHp (E) with TTN5 proteins (WT, TTN5T30N, TTN5Q70L) are illustrated as bar charts. The association of mdGDP (0.1 µM) or mGppNHp (0.1 µM) with increasing concentration of TTN5WT, TTN5T30N and TTN5Q70L was measured using a stopped-flow device (see A, B; data see Supplementary Figure S3A-F, S4A-E). Association rate constants (kon in µM-1s-1) were determined from the plot of increasing observed rate constants (kobs in s-1) against the corresponding concentrations of the TTN5 proteins. Intrinsic dissociation rates (koff in s-1) were determined by rapidly mixing 0.1 µM mdGDP-bound or mGppNHp-bound TTN5 proteins with the excess amount of unlabeled GDP (see A, C, data see Supplementary Figure S3G-I, S4F-H). The nucleotide affinity (dissociation constant or Kd in µM) of the corresponding TTN5 proteins was calculated by dividing koff by kon. When mixing mGppNHp with nucleotide-free TTN5T30N, no binding was observed (n.b.o.) under these experimental conditions."

      • *

      Are panels D and E representing values for mdGDP and GppNHP? This is not very clear from the figure legend.

      __Our response: __

      Yes, Figure 2D and E represent the kon, koff and Kd values for mdGDP (Figure 2D) and mGppNHP (Figure 2E). As detailed in our previous response to comment 2a, we modified figure and figure legend to make the representation more clear.

      • *

      Fig. 3 Same comments as in para above - improve resolution fo images, concentrate on a few selected cells, if required use an inset figure to zoom-in to specific compartments. Our response:

      As detailed in our responses to reviewers 1 and 2, we will upload all original image data to BioImage Archive upon acceptance of the manuscript, so that a detailed investigation of all our images is possible without any reduction of resolution.

      Please provide the non-fluorescent channel images to understand cell topography __Our response: __

      *We presented our microscopic images with the respective fluorescent channel and for colocalization with an additional merge. We did not present brightfield images as the cell topography was already well visible by fluorescent signal close to the PM. Therefore, brightfield images would not provide any benefit. Since we will upload all original data to BioImage Archive for a detailed investigation of all our images, the data can be obtained if needed. *

      Is the nuclear localization seen in transient expression (panel L-N) an artefact? If so, this needs to be mentioned in the text. Our response:

      As explained in our responses to reviewers 1 and 2, fluorescence signals were detected within the nuclei of root cells of YFP-TTN5 plants, while immunostaining signals of HA3-TTN5 were not detected in the nucleus.

      In an α-GFP Western blot using YFP-TTN5 Arabidopsis seedlings, we detected besides the expected and strong 48 kDa YFP-TTN5 band, three additional weak bands ranging between 26 to 35 kDa (NEW Supplementary Figure S7C). We cannot explain the presence of these small protein bands. They might correspond to free YFP, to proteolytic products or potentially to proteins expressed from aberrant transcripts. α-HA Western blot controls performed with plant material from HA3-TTN5 seedlings showed a single band at the correct size (Supplementary Figure S7D). We must therefore be cautious about nuclear TTN5 localization and we rephrased the text carefully (starting Line 300):

      „We also found multiple YFP bands in α-GFP Western blot analysis using YFP-TTN5 Arabidopsis seedlings. Besides the expected and strong 48 kDa YFP-TTN5 band, we observed three weak bands ranging between 26 to 35 kDa (Supplementary Figure S7C). We cannot explain the presence of these small protein bands. They might correspond to free YFP, to proteolytic products or potentially to proteins produced from aberrant transcripts with perhaps alternative translation start or stop sites. On the other side, a triple hemagglutinin-tagged HA3-TTN5 driven by the 35S promoter did complement the embryo-lethal phenotype of ttn5-1 (Supplementary Figure S7D, E). α-HA Western blot control performed with plant material from HA3-TTN5 seedlings showed a single band at the correct size, but no band that was 13 to 18 kDa smaller (Supplementary Figure S7D). (...) We did not observe any staining in nuclei or ER when performing HA3-TTN5 immunostaining (Figure 3P; Figure 4A, B), as was the case for fluorescence signals in YFP-TTN5-expressing cells. Presumably, this can indicate that either the nuclear and ER signals seen with YFP-TTN5 correspond to the smaller proteins detected, as described above, or that immunostaining was not suited to detect them. Hence, we focused interpretation on patterns of localization overlapping between the fluorescence staining with YFP-labeled TTN5 and with HA3-TTN5 immunostaining, such as the particular signal patterns in the specific punctate membrane structures."

      Fig. 4 - In addition to the points made for Fig. 3 The authors should consider reducing gain/exposure to improve image clarity. Especially for the punctate structures, which are difficult to observe in TTN5, likely because of the cytoplasmic localization as well.

      __Our response: __

      Thank you for this comment. We record image z-stacks and represent in single z-planes. Reducing the gain to decrease the cytoplasmic signal does not increase the clarity of the punctate structures as the signal strength will become weak.. As mentioned above, we will upload all original image data to BioImage Archive for a detailed investigation of all our images without any reduction of resolution.

      • *

      Reducing Agrobacterial load could be considered. OD of 0.4 is a bit much, 0.1 or even 0.05 could be tried. If available try expression in N. tabaccum, which is more amenable to microscopy. However, this is OPTIONAL, benthamiana should suffice. __Our response: __

      Thank you for the suggestion. We are routinely using N. benthamiana leaf infiltration. When setting up this method at first, we did not observe different localization results by using different ODs of bacterial cultures. Hence, an OD600 of 0.4 is routinely used in our institute. This value is comparable with the literature although some literature reports even higher OD values for infiltration (Norkunas et al., 2018; Drapal et al., 2021; Zhang et al., 2020, Davis et al., 2020; Stephenson et al., 2018).

      A standard norm now is to establish the level of colocalization is by quantifying a pearson's or Mander's correlation. Which I believe has been done in the text, I didn't find a plot representing the same? Could the data (which the authors already have) be plotted alongwith "n" as a table or graph? __Our response: __

      *Please check our response to reviewer 1, comment 4. *

      We like to insist that we performed colocalization very carefully and quantified the data in three different manners. We like to state that there is no general standardized procedure that best suits the idea of a colocalization pattern. Results of colocalization are represented in stem diagrams and table format, including statistical analysis. Colocalization was carried out with the ImageJ plugin JACoP for Pearson's and Overlap coefficients and based on the centroid method. The plotted Pearson's and Overlap coefficients are presented in bar diagrams in Supplementary Figure S8A and C, including statistics. The obtained values by the centroid method are represented in table format in Supplementary Figure S8B and D, which *can be considered a standard method (see Ivanov et al., 2014). *

      Colocalization of two different fluorescence signals was performed for the two channels in a specific chosen region of interest (indicating in % the overlapping signal versus the sum of signal for each channel). The differences between the YFP/mRFP and mRFP/YFP ratios indicate that a higher percentage of ARA7-RFP signal is colocalizing with YFP-TTN5Q70L signal than with the TTN5WT or the TTN5T30N mutant form signals, while the YFP signals have a similar overlap with ARA7-positive structures. This is not a contradiction. Presumably this answers well the questions on colocalization.

      Please note that upon acceptance for publication, we will upload all original colocalization data to BioImage Archive. Hence, the high-quality data can be reanalyzed by readers.

      The cartoons for the action of chemicals are useful, but need a bit more clarity. Our response:

      The schematic explanations of pharmacological treatments and expected outcomes are useful to readers. For a better understanding, we added additional explaining sentences to the figure legends (Figure 5E, M; Figure 6A). We also modified Figure 6A and the corresponding legend.

      "(E), Schematic representation of GmMan1 localization at the ER upon brefeldin A (BFA) treatment. BFA blocks ARF-GEF proteins which leads to a loss of Golgi cis-cisternae and the formation of BFA-induced compartments due to an accumulation of Golgi stacks up to a redistribution of the Golgi to the ER by fusion of the Golgi with the ER (Renna and Brandizzi 2020)."

      "(M), Schematic representation of ARA7 localization in swollen MVBs upon wortmannin treatment. Wortmannin inhibits phosphatidylinositol-3-kinase (PI3K) function leading to the fusion of TGN/EE to swollen MVBs (Renna and Brandizzi 2020)."

      "(A), Schematic representation of progressive stages of FM4-64 localization and internalization in a cell. FM4-64 is a lipophilic substance. After infiltration, it first localizes in the plasma membrane, at later stages it localizes to intracellular vesicles and membrane compartments. This localization pattern reflects the endocytosis process (Bolte et al. 2004)."

      • *

      Fig. 5 does the Q70L mutant show reduced endocytosis ?

      __Our response: __

      We have not investigated this question. As detailed in our response to reviewer 1, *we like to emphasize that we agree fully that functional evidences are interesting to assign role for TTN5 in trafficking steps. A phenotype associated with TTN5T30N and TTN5Q70L would be clearly meaningful. *

      Concerning the aspect of colocalization of the mutants with the markers we show in Figure 5C, D and G, H that YFP-TTN5T30N- and YFP-TTN5Q70L-related signals colocalize with the Golgi marker GmMan1-mCherry. Figure 5K, L and O, P show that YFP-TTN5T30N and YFP-TTN5Q70L-related signals can colocalize with the MVB marker, and this may affect relevant vesicle trafficking processes and plasma membrane protein regulation involved in root cell elongation.

      *At present, we have not yet investigated perturbed cargo trafficking. These aspects are certainly interesting but require extensive work and testing of appropriate physiological conditions and appropriate cargo targets. We discuss future perspectives in the Discussion. We agree that such functional information is of great importance, but needs to be clarified in future studies. *

      • *

      The main text needs to be organized in a way that a reader can separate what is the hypothesis/assumption from actual results and conclusions (see lines #143-149).

      Our response:

      *Thank you for this comment. We reformulated text throughout the manuscript. *

      The text is repeated in multiple places, while I understand that this is not plagiarism, the repetitiveness makes it difficult to read and understand the text. I highlight a couple of examples here, but please check the whole text thoroughly and edit/delete as necessary. a. Lines #124-125 with Lines #149-151 Lines #140-143

      __Our response: __

      *We checked the text and removed unnecessary repetitions. *

      • *

      • Could the authors elaborate on whether there are plan homologs of TTN5? Also, have other ARF/ARLs been compared to TTN5 beyond HsARF1? *

      Our response:

      Phylogenetic trees of the ARF family in Arabidopsis in comparison to human ARF family were already published by Vernoud et al. (2003). In this phylogenetic tree ARF, ARL and SAR proteins of Arabidopsis are compared with the members in humans and S. cervisiae. It is difficult to deduce whether the proteins are homologs or orthologs. In this setting, an ortholog of TTN5 may be HsARL2 followed by HsARL3. In Figure 1A we represented some human GTPases as closely related in sequence to TTN5, these are HsARL2, HsARF1 and AtARF1 since they are the best studied ARF GTPases. HRAS is a well-known member of the RAS superfamily which we used for kinetic comparison in Figure 2. We additionally compared published kinetics of RAC1, HsARF3, *CDC42, RHOA, ARF6, RAD, GEM, and RAS GTPases. *

      • *

      On a related note, a major problem I have with these kinetic values is the assumption of significance or not. For eg. Line#180 the values represent and 2 and 6-fold increase, if these numbers do not matter can a significance threshold be applied so as to understand how much fold-change is appreciable?

      Our response:

      The kinetics of TTN5 and its two mutant variants can be compared with those of other studied GTPases. To provide a basis for the statements about differences in GTPase activities, we modified the text and added respective references in the text for comparisons of fold changes.

      The new text is now as follows Line 175-231):

      „ We next measured the dissociation (koff) of mdGDP and mGppNHp from the TTN5 proteins in the presence of excess amounts of GDP and GppNHp, respectively (Figure 2C) and found interesting differences (Figure 2D, E; Supplementary Figures S3G-I, S4F-H). First, TTN5WT showed a koff value (0.012 s-1 for mGDP) (Figure 2D; Supplementary Figure S3G), which was 100-fold faster than those obtained for classical small GTPases, including RAC1 (Haeusler et al. 2006)and HRAS (Gremer et al. 2011), but very similar to the koff value of HsARF3 (Fasano et al. 2022). Second, the koffvalues for mGDP and mGppNHp, respectively, were in a similar range between TTN5WT (0.012 s-1 mGDP and 0.001 s-1mGppNHp) and TTN5Q70L (0.025 s-1 mGDP and 0.006 s-1 mGppNHp), respectively, but the koff values differed 10-fold between the two nucleotides mGDP and mGppNHp in TTN5WT (koff = 0.012 s-1 versus koff = 0.001 s-1; Figure 2D, E; Supplementary Figure S3G, I, S4F, H). Thus, mGDP dissociated from proteins 10-fold faster than mGppNHp. Third, the mGDP dissociation from TTN5T30N (koff = 0.149 s-1) was 12.5-fold faster than that of TTN5WT and 37-fold faster than the mGppNHp dissociation of TTN5T30N (koff = 0.004 s-1) (Figure 2D, E; Supplementary Figure S3H, S4G). Mutants of CDC42, RAC1, RHOA, ARF6, RAD, GEM and RAS GTPases, equivalent to TTN5T30N, display decreased nucleotide binding affinity and therefore tend to remain in a nucleotide-free state in a complex with their cognate GEFs (Erickson et al. 1997, Ghosh et al. 1999, Radhakrishna et al. 1999, Jung and Rösner 2002, Kuemmerle and Zhou 2002, Wittmann et al. 2003, Nassar et al. 2010, Huang et al. 2013, Chang and Colecraft 2015, Fisher et al. 2020, Shirazi et al. 2020). Since TTN5T30N exhibits fast guanine nucleotide dissociation, these results suggest that TTN5T30N may also act in either a dominant-negative or fast-cycling manner as reported for other GTPase mutants (Fiegen et al. 2004, Wang et al. 2005, Fidyk et al. 2006, Klein et al. 2006, Soh and Low 2008, Sugawara et al. 2019, Aspenström 2020).

      The dissociation constant (Kd) is calculated from the ratio koff/kon, which inversely indicates the affinity of the interaction between proteins and nucleotides (the higher Kd, the lower affinity). Interestingly, TTN5WT binds mGppNHp (Kd = 0.029 µM) 10-fold tighter than mGDP (Kd = 0.267 µM), a difference, which was not observed for TTN5Q70L (Kd for mGppNHp = 0.026 µM, Kd for mGDP = 0.061 µM) (Figure 2D, E). The lower affinity of TTN5WT for mdGDP compared to mGppNHp brings us one step closer to the hypothesis that classifies TTN5 as a non-classical GTPase with a tendency to accumulate in the active (GTP-bound) state (Jaiswal et al. 2013). The Kd value for the mGDP interaction with TTN5T30N was 11.5-fold higher (3.091 µM) than for TTN5WT, suggesting that this mutant exhibited faster nucleotide exchange and lower affinity for nucleotides than TTN5WT. Similar as other GTPases with a T30N exchange, TTN5T30Nmay behave in a dominant-negative manner in signal transduction (Vanoni et al. 1999).

      To get hints on the functionalities of TTN5 during the complete GTPase cycle, it was crucial to determine its ability to hydrolyze GTP. Accordingly, the catalytic rate of the intrinsic GTP hydrolysis reaction, defined as kcat, was determined by incubating 100 µM GTP-bound TTN5 proteins at 25{degree sign}C and analyzing the samples at various time points using a reversed-phase HPLC column (Figure 2F; Supplementary Figure S5). The determined kcat values were quite remarkable in two respects (Figure 2G). First, all three TTN5 proteins, TTN5WT, TTN5T30N and TTN5Q70L, showed quite similar kcatvalues (0.0015 s-1, 0.0012 s-1, 0.0007 s-1; Figure 2G; Supplementary Figure S5). The GTP hydrolysis activity of TTN5Q70L was quite high (0.0007 s-1). This was unexpected because, as with most other GTPases, the glutamine mutations at the corresponding position drastic impair hydrolysis, resulting in a constitutively active GTPase in cells (Hodge et al. 2020, Matsumoto et al. 2021). Second, the kcat value of TTN5WT (0.0015 s-1) although quite low as compared to other GTPases (Jian et al. 2012, Esposito et al. 2019), was 8-fold lower than the determined koff value for mGDP dissociation (0.012 s-1) (Figure 2E). This means that a fast intrinsic GDP/GTP exchange versus a slow GTP hydrolysis can have drastic effects on TTN5 activity in resting cells, since TTN5 can accumulate in its GTP-bound form, unlike the classical GTPase (Jaiswal et al. 2013). To investigate this scenario, we pulled down GST-TTN5 protein from bacterial lysates in the presence of an excess amount of GppNHp in the buffer using glutathione beads and measured the nucleotide-bound form of GST-TTN5 using HPLC. As shown in Figure 2H, isolated GST-TTN5 increasingly bonds GppNHp, indicating that the bound nucleotide is rapidly exchanged for free nucleotide (in this case GppNHp). This is not the case for classical GTPases, which remain in their inactive GDP-bound forms under the same experimental conditions (Walsh et al. 2019, Hodge et al. 2020)."

      Another issue with the kinetic measurements is the significance levels. Line #198-201. The three proteins are claimed to have similar values and in the nnext line, the Q70L mutant is claimed to be high.

      Our response:

      Please see our response and changes in the text according in our response to the previous comment 9. We have provided extra explanations and references to clarify why the kinetic behavior of TTN5 is unusual in several respects (Line 215-220).

      „First, all three TTN5 proteins, TTN5WT, TTN5T30N and TTN5Q70L, showed quite similar kcat values (0.0015 s-1, 0.0012 s-1, 0.0007 s-1; Figure 2G; Supplementary Figure S5). The GTP hydrolysis activity of TTN5Q70L was quite high (0.0007 s-1). This was unexpected because, as with most other GTPases, the glutamine mutations at the corresponding position drastic impair hydrolysis, resulting in a constitutively active GTPase in cells (Hodge et al. 2020, Matsumoto et al. 2021)."

      Provide data for conclusion in line#214-215

      Our response:

      We agree that a reference should be added after this sentence to make this sentence clearer (Line 228-231).

      "As shown in Figure 2H, isolated GST-TTN5 increasingly bonds GppNHp, indicating that the bound nucleotide is rapidly exchanged for free nucleotide (in this case GppNHp). This is not the case for classical GTPases, which remain in their inactive GDP-bound forms under the same experimental conditions (Walsh et al. 2019, Hodge et al. 2020)."

      • *

      How were the mutants studied here identified? random mutation or was it directed based on qualified assumptions?

      __Our response: __

      We used the T30N and the Q70L point mutations as such types of mutants had been reported to confer specific phenotypes in these well-conserved amino acid positions in multiple other small GTPases (Erickson et al. 1997, Ghosh et al. 1999, Radhakrishna et al. 1999, Jung and Rösner 2002, Kuemmerle and Zhou 2002, Wittmann et al. 2003, Nassar et al. 2010, Huang et al. 2013, Chang and Colecraft 2015, Fisher et al. 2020, Shirazi et al. 2020). In particular, these positions affect the interaction between small GTPases and their respective guanine nucleotide exchange factor (GEF; T30N) or on GTP hydrolysis (Q70L). We introduced the mutants and described their potential effect on the GTPase cycle in the introduction and cited exemplary literature. Please see also our response to comment 6 and the proposed text changes (Line 142-151).

      Could more simplification be provided for deifitinition of Kon/Koff values. And can these values be compared between mutants directly?

      __Our response: __

      *We introduce kon and koff in the modified Figure 2D, E, and they are described in the figure legends. Moreover, we present the data for calculations in Supplementary Figures S3, 4, where again we define the values in the respective figure legends. *

      • *

      Data provided are not convincing to claim that both the mutant forms have lower association with the Golgi.

      __Our response: __

      *Our conclusion is that both YFP-TTN5 and YFP-TTN5Q70L fluorescence signals tend to colocalize more with the Golgi-marker signals compared to YFP-TTN5T30N signals as deduced from the centroid-based colocalization method (Line 404-405). *

      "Hence, the GTPase-active TTN5 forms are likely more present at cis-Golgi stacks compared to TTN5T30N."

      The Pearson coefficients of all three YFP-TTN5 constructs were nearly identical, but we could identify differences in overlapping centers between the YFP and mCherry channel. 48 % of the GmMan1-mCherry fluorescent cis-Golgi stacks were overlapping with signal of YFP-TTN5Q70L, while for YFP-TTN5T30N an overlap of only 31 % was detected. This means that less cis*-Golgi stacks colocalized with signals in the YFP-TTN5T30N mutant than in YFP-TTN5Q70L, which is the statement in our manuscript. *

      • *

      IN general the Authors should strongly consider the claims made in the manuscript. For eg. "This study lays the foundation for studying the functional relationships of this small GTPase" (line 125) is unqualified as this is true for every protein ever studied and published. Considering that TTN was not isolated/identified in this study for the first time this claim doesn't stand.

      __Our response: __

      *We reformulated the sentence (Line 123-124). *

      "This study paves the way towards future investigation of the cellular and physiological contexts in which this small GTPase is functional."

      • *

      Line #185 - "characterestics of a dominant-negative...." What is this based on? From the text it is not clear what are the paremeters. Considering that no complementation phenotypes have been presented, this is a far-fetched claim Our response:

      Small GTPases in general are a well studied protein family and the here used mutations T30N and Q70L are conserved amino acids and commonly used for the characterization of the Ras superfamily members. We added explaining sentences with references to the text. The characteristics referred to in the above paragraph is based on the kinetic study.

      We modified the text as follows (Line 186-197 ):

      „Third, the mGDP dissociation from TTN5T30N (koff = 0.149 s-1) was 12.5-fold faster than that of TTN5WT and 37-fold faster than the mGppNHp dissociation of TTN5T30N (koff = 0.004 s-1) (Figure 2D, E; Supplementary Figure S3H, S4G). Mutants of CDC42, RAC1, RHOA, ARF6, RAD, GEM and RAS GTPases, equivalent to TTN5T30N, display decreased nucleotide binding affinity and therefore tend to remain in a nucleotide-free state in a complex with their cognate GEFs (Erickson et al. 1997, Ghosh et al. 1999, Radhakrishna et al. 1999, Jung and Rösner 2002, Kuemmerle and Zhou 2002, Wittmann et al. 2003, Nassar et al. 2010, Huang et al. 2013, Chang and Colecraft 2015, Fisher et al. 2020, Shirazi et al. 2020). Since TTN5T30N exhibits fast guanine nucleotide dissociation, these results suggest that TTN5T30N may also act in either a dominant-negative or fast-cycling manner as reported for other GTPase mutants (Fiegen et al. 2004, Wang et al. 2005, Fidyk et al. 2006, Klein et al. 2006, Soh and Low 2008, Sugawara et al. 2019, Aspenström 2020)."

      The claims in Line #224-227 are exaggerated. Please tone down or delete __Our response: __

      *We rephrased the sentence (Line 240-243). *

      "Therefore, we propose that TTN5 exhibits the typical functions of a small GTPase based on in vitro biochemical activity studies, including guanine nucleotide association and dissociation, but emphasizes its divergence among the ARF GTPases by its kinetics."

      Line#488-489 - This conclusion is not really supported. At best Authors can claim that TTN5 is associated with trafficking components, but the functional relevance of this association is not determined. Our response:

      *We toned down our statement (Line 604-608). *

      „The colocalization of FM4-64-labeled endocytosed vesicles with fluorescence in YFP-TTN5-expressing cells may indicate that TTN5 is involved in endocytosis and the possible degradation pathway into the vacuole. Our data on colocalization with the different markers support the hypothesis that TTN5 may have functions in vesicle trafficking."

      __Minor comments: __

      Line #95 - " This rolein vesicle....." - please clarify which role? Our response:

      We rephrased the sentence (Line 96-99).

      „These roles of ARF1 and SAR1 in COPI and II vesicle formation within the endomembrane system are well conserved in eukaryotes which raises the question of whether other plant ARF members are also involved in functioning of the endomembrane system."

      Line #168 - "we did not observed" please change to "not able to measure/quantify" __Our response: __

      *We changed the text accordingly (Line 169-171). *

      „A remarkable observation was that we were not able to monitor the kinetics of mGppNHp association with TTN5T30N but observed its dissociation (koff = 0.026 s-1; Figure 2E)."

      Line#179 - ARF# is human for Arabidopsis?

      Our response:

      *The study of Fasano et al., 2022 is based on human ARF3 and we added the information to the text (Line 180-181) *

      "(...) very similar to the koff value of HsARF3 (Fasano et al. 2022)."

      • *

      Line #181 - compared to what is the 10-fold difference?

      __Our response: __

      The 10-fold difference is between the nucleotides mGDP and mGppNHp, for both TTN5WT and TTN5Q70L. We added the information on specific nucleotides to this sentence for a better understanding (Line 181-185).

      „Second, the koff values for mGDP and mGppNHp, respectively, were in a similar range between TTN5WT (0.012 s-1mGDP and 0.001 s-1 mGppNHp) and TTN5Q70L (0.025 s-1 mGDP and 0.006 s-1 mGppNHp), respectively, but the koffvalues differed 10-fold between the two nucleotides mGDP and mGppNHp in TTN5WT (koff = 0.012 s-1 versus koff = 0.001 s-1; Figure 2D, E; Supplementary Figure S3G, I, S4F, H)."

      Lines #314-323 - are diffciult to understand, consider reframing. Same goes for the conclusion following these lines.

      __Our response: __

      We added an explanation to these sentences for a better understanding (Line 392-405).

      „We performed an additional object-based analysis to compare overlapping YFP fluorescence signals in YFP-TTN5-expressing leaves with GmMan1-mCherry signals (YFP/mCherry ratio) and vice versa (mCherry/YFP ratio). We detected 24 % overlapping YFP- fluorescence signals for TTN5 with Golgi stacks, while in YFP-TTN5T30N and YFP-TTN5Q70L-expressing leaves, signals only shared 16 and 15 % overlap with GmMan1-mCherry-positive Golgi stacks (Supplementary Figure S8B). Some YFP-signals did not colocalize with the GmMan1 marker. This effect appeared more prominent in leaves expressing YFP-TTN5T30N and less for YFP-TTN5Q70L, compared to YFP-TTN5 (Figure 5B-D). Indeed, we identified 48 % GmMan1-mCherry signal overlapping with YFP-positive structures in YFP-TTN5Q70L leaves, whereas 43 and only 31 % were present with YFP fluorescence signals in YFP-TTN5 and YFP-TTN5T30N-expressing leaves, respectively (Supplementary Figure S8B), indicating a smaller amount of GmMan1-positive Golgi stacks colocalizing with YFP signals for YFP-TTN5T30N. Hence, the GTPase-active TTN5 forms are likely more present at cis-Golgi stacks compared to TTN5T30N."

      Authors might consider a longer BFA treatment (3-4h) to see more clearer ER-Golgi fusion (BFA bodies)

      __Our response: __

      We perforned addtional BFA treatments for HA3-TTN5-expressing Arabidopsis seedlings followed by whole-mount immunostaining and for YFP-TTN5-expressing Arabidopsis lines. In both experiments we could obtain the typical BFA bodies. We included the NEW data in NEW Figure 4B, C

      **Referees cross-commenting**

      I agree with both my co-reviewers that the manuscript needs substantial improvement in its cell biology based experiments and conclusions thereof. I think the concensus of all reviewers points to weakness in the in-planta experiments which needs to be addressed to understand and characterize TTN5, which is the main goal of the manuscript.

      Reviewer #3 (Significance (Required)):

      Significance: The manuscript has general significance in understanding the role of small GTPases which are understudied. Although the manuscript does not advance the field of either intracellular trafficking or organization it holds significance in attempting to characterize proteins involved, which is a prerequisite for further functional studies.

      __Our response: __

      Thank you for your detailed analysis of our manuscript and positive assessment. Our study is an advance in the plant vesicle trafficking field.

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      Referee #3

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      Summary:

      Cellular traffic is an important and well-studied biological process in animal and plant systems. While components involved in transport are known the mechanism by which these components control activity or destination remains to be studied. A critical step in regulating traffic is proper budding and tethering of vesicles. A critical component in determining this step is a family proteins with GTPase activity, which act as switches facilitating vesicle interaction between proteins, or cytoskeleton. The current manuscript by Mohr and colleagues have characterized a small GTPase TITAN5 (TTN5) and identified two residues Gln70 and Thr30 in the protein which they propose to have functional roles. The authors catalogue the localization, GTP hydrolytic activity, and discuss putative functions of TTN5 and the mutants.

      Major comments:

      The core of the manuscript, which is descriptive characterization of TTN5, lies in reliably demonstrating putative roles. While the GTP hydrolysis rates are well-quantified (though the claims need to be toned down), the microscopy data especially the association of TTN5 with different endomembrane compartments is not convincing due to the quality (low resolution) of the figures submitted. The manuscript text is difficult to navigate due to repetition and inconsistency in the order that the mutants are referred. I am requesting additional experiments which should be feasible considering the authors have all the materials required to perform the experiments and obtain high-quality images which support their claims.

      1. In general the figure quality needs to be improved for all microscopy images. I would suggest that the authors highlight 1-2 individual cells to make their point and use the current images as supplementary to establish a broader spread.
        • a. Fig. S1 lacks clarity.
        • b. For the supplementary videos, it is difficult to determine if punctate structures are moving or is it cytoplasmic streaming? Could this be done with a co-localized marker? Considering that such markers have been used later in Fig. 4?
        • c. It would be good if the speed of movement is quantified, if the authors want to retain the current claims in results and the discussion.
      2. Fig.2
        • a. I am not sure what the unit / scale is in Fig. 2D/E if each parameter (Kon, Koff, and Kd) are individually plotted? Could the authors please clarify/simplify this panel?
        • b. Are panels D and E representing values for mdGDP and GppNHP? This is not very clear from the figure legend.
      3. Fig. 3
        • a. Same comments as in para above - improve resolution fo images, concentrate on a few selected cells, if required use an inset figure to zoom-in to specific compartments.
        • b. Please provide the non-fluorescent channel images to understand cell topography
        • c. Is the nuclear localization seen in transient expression (panel L-N) an artefact? If so, this needs to be mentioned in the text.
      4. Fig. 4 - In addition to the points made for Fig. 3
        • a. The authors should consider reducing gain/exposure to improve image clarity. Especially for the punctate structures, which are difficult to observe in TTN5, likely because of the cytoplasmic localization as well.
        • b. Reducing Agrobacterial load could be considered. OD of 0.4 is a bit much, 0.1 or even 0.05 could be tried. If available try expression in N. tabaccum, which is more amenable to microscopy. However, this is OPTIONAL, benthamiana should suffice.
        • c. A standard norm now is to establish the level of colocalization is by quantifying a pearson's or Mander's correlation. Which I believe has been done in the text, I didn't find a plot representing the same? Could the data (which the authors already have) be plotted alongwith "n" as a table or graph?
        • d. The cartoons for the action of chemicals are useful, but need a bit more clarity.
      5. Fig. 5
        • a. does the Q70L mutant show reduced endocytosis ?
      6. The main text needs to be organized in a way that a reader can separate what is the hypothesis/assumption from actual results and conclusions (see lines #143-149).
      7. The text is repeated in multiple places, while I understand that this is not plagiarism, the repetitiveness makes it difficult to read and understand the text. I highlight a couple of examples here, but please check the whole text thoroughly and edit/delete as necessary.
        • a. Lines #124-125 with Lines #149-151
        • b. Lines #140-143
      8. Could the authors elaborate on whether there are plan homologs of TTN5? Also, have other ARF/ARLs been compared to TTN5 beyond HsARF1?
      9. On a related note, a major problem I have with these kinetic values is the assumption of significance or not. For eg. Line#180 the values represent and 2 and 6-fold increase, if these numbers do not matter can a significance threshold be applied so as to understand how much fold-change is appreciable?
      10. Another issue with the kinetic measurements is the significance levels. Line #198-201. The three proteins are claimed to have similar values and in the nnext line, the Q70L mutant is claimed to be high.
      11. Provide data for conclusion in line#214-215
      12. How were the mutants studied here identified? random mutation or was it directed based on qualified assumptions?
      13. Could more simplification be provided for deifitinition of Kon/Koff values. And can these values be compared between mutants directly?
      14. Data provided are not convincing to claim that both the mutant forms have lower association with the Golgi.
      15. IN general the Authors should strongly consider the claims made in the manuscript. For eg. "This study lays the foundation for studying the functional relationships of this small GTPase" (line 125) is unqualified as this is true for every protein ever studied and published. Considering that TTN was not isolated/identified in this study for the first time this claim doesn't stand.
        • a. Line #185 - "characterestics of a dominant-negative...." What is this based on? From the text it is not clear what are the paremeters. Considering that no complementation phenotypes have been presented, this is a far-fetched claim
        • b. The claims in Line #224-227 are exaggerated. Please tone down or delete
        • c. Line#488-489 - This conclusion is not really supported. At best Authors can claim that TTN5 is associated with trafficking components, but the functional relevance of this association is not determined.

      Minor comments:

      1. Line #95 - " This rolein vesicle....." - please clarify which role?
      2. Line #168 - "we did not observed" please change to "not able to measure/quantify"
      3. Line#179 - ARF# is human for Arabidopsis?
      4. Line #181 - compared to what is the 10-fold difference?
      5. Lines #314-323 - are diffciult to understand, consider reframing. Same goes for the conclusion following these lines.
      6. Authors might consider a longer BFA treatment (3-4h) to see more clearer ER-Golgi fusion (BFA bodies)

      Referees cross-commenting

      I agree with both my co-reviewers that the manuscript needs substantial improvement in its cell biology based experiments and conclusions thereof. I think the concensus of all reviewers points to weakness in the in-planta experiments which needs to be addressed to understand and characterize TTN5, which is the main goal of the manuscript.

      Significance

      The manuscript has general significance in understanding the role of small GTPases which are understudied. Although the manuscript does not advance the field of either intracellular trafficking or organization it holds significance in attempting to characterize proteins involved, which is a prerequisite for further functional studies.

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      Reply to the reviewers

      Reviewer #1 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      Summary: In this paper, Dresselhaus et al (2023) investigate the possibility that known cargoes of extracellular vesicles (EVs) released at the Drosophila neuromuscular junction have cell-autonomous functions rather than functions specifically conferred as a condition of their release in EVs, in vivo. To do so, authors focus their studies on use of Tsg101-KD, a mutant of the ESCRT-I machinery, of the ESCRT EV biogenesis pathway, and are able to show that for some endogenously-expressed, fluorescently-tagged cargoes, fluorescence intensity in the pre-synaptic compartment is significantly elevated (Syt4 and Evi) and the postsynaptic intensity in the muscle is significantly decreased (Syt4, Evi, APP, and Nrg).

      We note that throughout our study, we detected endogenous Nrg with a well-characterized monoclonal antibody, not a fluorescent tag. We and others previously demonstrated that endogenous Nrg detected by this antibody is trafficked from neurons into EVs, using the same pathways as other EV cargoes such as Syt4, APP and Evi (Blanchette et al., 2022; Enneking et al., 2013; Walsh et al., 2021). Thus, the EV trafficking phenotypes in our study are consistent across fluorescently tagged cargo (endogenous knockin for Syt4 and GAL4/UAS-driven for APP and Evi), as well as for untagged, endogenous Nrg, thus controlling for effects of either overexpression or tagging.

      These findings suggest that these cargoes become trapped in the endosomal system (colocalizing with early, late, and recycling endosomal compartments), rather than undergoing secretion in EVs targeting post-synaptic muscle and glia as usual. This phenotype is recapitulated for select cargoes using mutants of both early and late components of ESCRT pathway machinery. They further characterize the Tsg101 mutant, demonstrating co-occurrence of an autophagic flux defect, but as the cargo phenotype is present without induction of the autophagic flux defect for their Hrs mutants, authors suggest the overlapping role of Tsg101 in autophagy is independent of its role in the ESCRT pathway/ EV secretion. Subsequently, they use previously defined functional phenotypes of the Evi (number of active zones, number of boutons, number of developmentally-arrested ghost boutons) and Syt-4 (number of transient ghost boutons and mEJPs) cargoes to show a minimal dependence on cargo delivery via ESCRT-derived EVs for these cargoes to carry out their synaptic growth and plasticity functions in vivo. However, it should be notes that for Evi/ Wg cargo, there is a slight increase in developmentally-arrested ghost boutons suggesting the cargo may not be entirely independent of EV-mediated cargo delivery. Finally, authors express an anti-GFP proteasome-directed nanobody using motor neuron or muscle-specific drivers and find that Syt4-GFP cargo doesn't enter muscle cytoplasm as fluorescence is maintained and cargo is not degraded by the muscle proteasome. While authors suggest this as evidence of EV-mediated transfer for cargo proteostasis, it is not explicitly shown that Syt4 cargo is, in fact, trafficked and degraded by the lysosome or hypothesized how Syt4 function or post-synaptic localization may be carried out independently of EVs.

      We have added new data showing that Syt4 is taken up by glial and muscle phagocytosis (Fig. 7), and included in the discussion several possible interpretations for how Syt4 activity is carried out independently of its traffic into EVs. Indeed we believe it is more likely to function in the presynaptic neuron rather than the postsynaptic muscle.

      Major comments:

      R1.1 It is difficult to evaluate the findings of this study without knowing the extent of ESCRT pathway impairment. Please provide data quantifying the degree of knockdown/ mutant expression for each ESCRT component (i.e., western blot)

      To address the reviewer’s request to specifically measure the degree of knockdown in the RNAi lines, we tested all available reagents. Unfortunately no Drosophila Tsg101 antibody exists and we did not receive a reply to our requests for a Shrub antibody. An Hrs antibody exists, but we found that none of three available Hrs RNAi lines depleted Hrs signal, or caused a phenotype similar to the HrsD28 point mutant, suggesting that they are not effective at knocking down the protein. Therefore, we were unable to specifically measure the level of depletion in motor neurons for RNAi of Tsg101, Shrub, or Hrs.

      However, we can make a strong argument that our knockdowns were sufficiently effective to answer the questions in our study. We used RNAi as only one of several complementary tools to manipulate ESCRT function (i.e. we also used loss-of-function mutants (HrsD28/Deficiency) and dominant negative mutants (Vps4DN)). These mutants caused a comparable and severe loss of EVs to RNAi (Fig 2): therefore the extent of depletion in the RNAi experiments was sufficient to cause a similarly severe phenotype as genomic or DN mutations, meeting the definition of a bona fide loss-of-function. We also know, since we used these complementary strategies, that the phenotypes we observe are very unlikely to be due to off-target effects of the RNAi.

      More importantly, what is directly relevant for our subsequent functional experiments is to know the extent of EV depletion, which we have explicitly measured throughout the paper. It is unclear what additional insights would be gained by knowing whether the strong Tsg101 and Shrub RNAi phenotypes are due to incomplete versus complete knockdown, given that we do measure the extent of EV depletion under these conditions. Further, we note that tsg101 null mutants die as first instar larvae (Moberg et al., 2005), raising the possibility that a more complete knockdown in neurons would be lethal early in development and make our study impossible. Indeed HrsD28 is an early stop that preserves the VHS and FYVE domains but truncates the C-terminal ⅔ of the protein. Its (occasional) survival to third instar indicates that it may be a severe hypomorph rather than a null.

      We have added a sentence in the text (p12 line 21-25) to clarify that we do not know the exact extent of knockdown for our RNAi experiments, but that by genetic definitions, they meet the criteria of a loss-of-function manipulation.

      R1.2 Loss of ESCRT machinery likely disrupts the release of small EVs to a significant extent; however, the authors do not show that EV release is entirely lost, only that 1) cargoes are backed up in the endosomal system due to endosomal dysfunction and 2) fluorescence of cargoes in the postsynaptic compartment is diminished. To claim that ESCRT-derived EVs with the relevant cargoes are lost, the authors should perform immunogold labelling with TEM. This would provide direct evidence that the cargoes examined here are packaged in ILVs, and that the ILVs are of a size (~50-150nm) consistent with exosomes (which should really be referred to as small extracellular vesicles (sEVs) per the minimal information for studies of extracellular vesicles (MISEV 2018 [https://doi.org/10.1080/20013078.2018.1535750]) Additionally, EM would show the loss of cargo packaging and provide information about where these cargoes localize in the presence of ESCRT mutants/loss-of-function.

      EM (including some limited immunoEM) studies requested by Reviewer 1 have previously been performed in this system by us and by the Budnik and Verstreken labs (Koles et al., 2012; Korkut et al., 2009; Korkut et al., 2013; Lauwers et al., 2018; Walsh et al., 2021). MVBs at the NMJ contain ~50-100 nm ILVs, and can often be seen proximal to or fusing with the plasma membrane. Mutants such as Hsp90 that block this fusion also block EV release, arguing that these MVBs are the source of EV (Lauwers et al., 2018). By immunoEM, the EV cargo Evi localizes to MVBs (Koles et al., 2012). ~50-200 nm structures containing immunogold against Evi were also observed in the subsynaptic reticulum between the neuron and the muscle, as well as in membrane compartments in the muscle cytoplasm (Koles et al., 2012; Korkut et al., 2009). Thus, the criteria requested by the reviewer have previously been established in this system.

      In response to the reviewer’s request to show that these structures are altered in ESCRT mutants, we attempted immunoEM experiments in the Tsg101KD condition. However, similar to the previously published results (Koles et al., 2012; Korkut et al., 2009), immunoEM in thick tissue such as Drosophila larval fillets is quite challenging, and we found it very difficult to retain immunogenicity together with excellent fixation and preservation of membrane structures, such that we could rigorously measure compartment morphology and size. Even if we did achieve good structural preservation, exosomes are ambiguous in complex membrane-rich tissues, since cross-sections through the extensively infolded muscle membrane (e.g. see Fig 3B) are very similar in size to EVs.

      As an alternative and more robust approach, we used STED microscopy, with a resolution of ~50nm, where we could conduct a rigorous and properly powered study of directly labeled EV cargoes (New data in Fig. S1). We show that postsynaptic Nrg and APP-GFP are found in structures with a mean diameter of ~125 nm, consistent with small EVs or exosomes, and these are strongly depleted in the Tsg101KD animals (to similar levels as antibody background far from the site of EV accumulation), as expected. Note that we are able to detect particles significantly smaller than 125 nm in the distribution, suggesting that the resolution of our system is sufficient to measure EV width.

      We also note that several of these cargoes are detected via an intracellular tag (Syt4, APP, Evi) or antibody against an intracellular domain (Nrg), so by topology they must be membrane-bound in the EVs rather than cleaved from the cell surface. We and others have previously shown that this postsynaptic signal is entirely derived from the presynaptic neuron, by using neuronal UAS-expression of a tagged protein, by neuronal RNAi of the endogenous gene, or by the tissue-specific tagging approach in the current manuscript (Fig. S4). We have also previously shown that these puncta contain the tetraspanin Sunglasses (CG12143/Tsp42Ej), which is an EV marker (Walsh et al., 2021). We have added new data to our manuscript (Fig. S1A) to show that neuronally-derived tetraspanin EVs are depleted in upon Tsg101KD. Therefore, the reviewer’s point “2) fluorescence of cargoes in the postsynaptic compartment is diminished.” is the most direct and sensitive test of trans-synaptic cargo transfer, and is the precise parameter that we are trying to manipulate to test the functions of this transfer.

      We believe that light microscopy showing loss of presynaptically-derived cargoes in the postsynaptic region is the best and most direct argument for loss of EV secretion, compared to the ambiguity of EM. It is also exactly the method that led to the proposal for the signaling function of EVs in previous work, which our current manuscript is revisiting. We are now using improved tests of that original hypothesis by examining it in light of additional membrane trafficking mutants (and finding that it no longer holds up). Overall, given the preponderance of evidence from the preceding literature and our studies indicating that (1) these cargoes are indeed in EVs and (2) we see a strong enough depletion of transsynaptic transfer to challenge the hypothesis that EVs serve signaling functions (see R1.3 response below), we are reluctant to spend more time attempting immunoEM which is not likely to resolve membrane structures.

      To address the point of EV terminology used in our manuscript, we think it is very unlikely that the postsynaptic structures are not exosomes. The criteria defined by MISEV for exosomes is that they are endosomally-derived from MVBs, ideally with the EV “caught in the act of release” upon fusion with the plasma membrane. As noted above, cargoes such as Syt4 and Evi are observed by immunoEM in MVBs, and these can be found in the process of fusing with the plasma membrane (i.e. caught in the act of release) (Koles et al., 2012; Korkut et al., 2009; Korkut et al., 2013; Lauwers et al., 2018). Mutants that block MVB fusion also block EV release at the NMJ (Lauwers et al., 2018). These EVs require ESCRT for their formation and are trapped in endosomes rather than the plasma membrane upon ESCRT depletion (this study). They depend on multiple components of the endosomal system (Rab GTPases, retromer) for their formation (Koles et al., 2012; Walsh et al., 2021). Taken together, it seems to us that there is sufficient data to argue that these are exosomes. However, as the reviewers requested, we have called them EVs in the revised paper (and only suggest they are exosomes in the discussion).

      R1.3 Other biogenesis pathways utilize multivesicular bodies to generate EVs, most prominently the nSMase2/ceramide synthesis pathway (which operates in an ESCRT-independent manner). It is possible that this pathway compensates when there are defects in the canonical ESCRT pathway. Thus, it is imperative for the authors to show that the cargo secretion no longer occurs in the presence of ESCRT mutations/loss-of-function. The authors should also use nSMase2 pathway mutants to see if the phenotypes in cargo trafficking (i.e., pre/ post-synaptic protein levels) are recapitulated.

      The reviewer asked us to show that cargo secretion does not occur in the ESCRT mutants. We reiterate that at the limits of detection of our assay, we see a very strong depletion of secretion__, and that EV cargo levels are not distinguishable from background (__Figure S1). Perhaps Reviewer 1’s concern is that since it would never be possible to show that we have depleted EVs completely (i.e. below the level of detection of our assays), that it is not possible to challenge the hypothesis that EV traffic is required for the proposed signaling functions of EVs. Indeed, they mention in their overall assessment “as it is unknown if minor sources of cargo+ EVs are sufficient in maintaining functional phenotype”. We do have some information on this, as described in the manuscript (p3 lines 41-43; p7 lines 25-31; p11 lines 27-30) and as follows: The critical argument against this concern is that other trafficking mutants with residual levels of EVs (rab11 or nwk) do show loss of signaling function (Blanchette et al., 2022; Korkut et al., 2013). Therefore residual EVs, even at the lower level of detection of our assay, are not enough to support signaling. The main difference is that in nwk and rab11 mutants the levels of the cargo in the donor presynaptic neuron are also strongly depleted, unlike in the ESCRT mutants. This strongly suggests that the cargoes are signaling from the presynaptic compartment, rather than in EVs. We have added the nwk mutant to show this baseline in Figure 2A,D. Similarly, our new results showing that hrs mutants retain Wg signaling while Tsg101 mutants do not, despite a similar degree of EV depletion (new data with more cargoes in Figure 2A-F), argues that residual EVs do not account for the lack of disruption of signaling. Finally, we have been transparent in our discussion that trace amounts of EVs could still exist, including by alternative pathways, but are unlikely to provide function (p11 lines 25-33).

      We agree that it might be an interesting future mechanistic direction to ask if the SMase pathway works with or in parallel to the ESCRT pathway (both have been suggested in the literature). However, we do not believe that this is essential for the current work: The SMase pathway is unlikely to be “compensating”, since EVs are already very strongly depleted with ESCRT disruption alone. We also note that SMase depletion may also affect other trafficking pathways (Back et al., 2018; Choezom and Gross, 2022; Niekamp et al., 2022), and therefore might not provide any clarifying information if it did disrupt signaling. In summary, we believe the depletion we see in single ESCRT mutants is sufficient to (1) establish the role of ESCRT in EV traffic in this system, and (2) test the role of transsynaptic transfer in signaling functions of cargoes.

      R1.4 The authors' findings support that cargo trafficking is affected by widespread endosomal dysfunction but doesn't cleanly prove that 1) synaptic sEV release is lost and 2) that cargo-specific sEVs are lost. As previously mentioned, loss of cargo+ ILVs in MVEs by TEM could demonstrate this, but another useful approach would be to include in vitro Drosophila primary neuronal culture/ EV isolation and mass spec/proteomic characterization studies as proof of concept. According to widely agreed upon guidelines in the EV field, the authors should directly characterize their EV population to show 1) the appropriate size distribution associated with exosomes/sEVs, 2) the presence of traditional EV markers (i.e., tetraspanins), 3) changes in overall EV count by ESCRT mutants, and 4) decreased levels of cargo(es) of interest in the presence of ESCRT mutants/loss-of-function. In vitro experiments would be particularly helpful for quantifying the degree of loss of cargo-specific EVs with each ESCRT mutant. These experiments could also investigate the possibility that cargoes are secreted in nSMase2/ Ceramide-derived EVs, by showing that EV cargo levels are unaffected in nSMase mutants.

      Our data already show loss of cargo-specific EVs, defined by puncta of several independent specific cargoes in the extraneuronal space and postsynaptic muscle. To further substantiate this, we have directly characterized our EV population and shown a distribution of ~125 nm extraneuronal structures containing the transmembrane cargoes Nrg and APP (by STED) as well as Evi, Syt4 and the EV marker tetraspanin (by confocal microscopy). This addresses the (1) size distribution, (2) EV marker and (3) count criteria. All these markers (cargoes and tetraspanins) are severely depleted from the postsynaptic area in the ESCRT mutants, satisfying the (4) decreased levels criteria. As noted above, we and others have repeatedly demonstrated that these postsynaptic puncta are derived from neurons, and since we are detecting the intracellular domain in all cases, must be membrane-bound. Others have previously shown by EM that several of these markers are surrounded by membrane and derived from neuronal MVBs (see R1.2). Note that we do not believe that ESCRT mutants must necessarily cleanly show enlarged endosomes without ILVs or a class E vps compartment - instead stalled endosomes appear to be targeted for autophagy in heterogeneous intermediates (Fig 3).

      We do not believe that turning to a heterologous system (e.g. cultured primary Drosophila neurons, which do not even form functional synapses) is usefully translatable to results in neurons in vivo. Data from our lab and many other systems has shown that EV biogenesis and release pathways are highly cell-type specific (p9 lines 8-12), and also differ in different regions of neurons (eg synapses vs soma) (Blanchette and Rodal, 2020). Further, keeping the experimental setup of the original for EV signaling hypothesis is a prerequisite for our improved tests of this hypothesis. We do note that APP, Evi and Syt4 have been demonstrated by us and others to be released from Drosophila S2 cells in EVs defined by differential centrifugation, sucrose gradient buoyancy, electron microscopy and mass spectrometry (Koles et al., 2012; Korkut et al., 2009; Korkut et al., 2013; Walsh et al., 2021). However even if we did measure the precise change in EV number and cargoes upon ESCRT manipulation in these heterologous cells, it would not allow us to conclude that the same quantitative change was happening in the motor neurons of interest in vivo, which is the information we need to conduct our tests of cargo signaling function. All we would learn is whether ESCRT was required in that cell type, which would not be informative for our study.

      We appreciate that EV researchers working in cell culture systems often use a set of approaches including bulk isolation, EM, and mass spectrometry. Our system does not allow for these approaches, but provides complementary strengths of single EV characterization, in vivo relevance with functional assays, and a wealth of genetic tools. MISEV itself states that it does not provide a set of agreed-upon rules that can be applied generically to any experiment. We agree with the MISEV statement that we should use the best available assays for the system under investigation.

      R1.5 During functional tests of Evi+ motor neurons lacking generation of Evi+ EVs, there is a slight defect observed, namely the increased formation of developmentally arrested ghost boutons when Evi secretion in sEVs is lost. As mentioned, Evi is a transporter of Wg and it is possible for Wg to be transmitted between cells via normal diffusion. Thus, some basal levels of Wg may be reaching the muscle when its transfer via sEVs is abolished, and these basal levels may be sufficient to phenocopy the WT in the number of active zones and boutons. Is it possible that this element of Evi/ Wg function is dose-dependent and thus reliant on the extra Evi/ Wg transferred via sEVs? If possible, the authors should use a Wnt-signaling pathway reporter (i.e., fluorescently tagged Beta-Catenin) to measure the levels of Wnt signaling activity in the muscle when Evi/Wg+ EVs are present vs. abolished. If the degree of Wnt signaling (readout would be intensity of fluorescent reporter) is decreased without Evi+ sEVs, there may be a dose-dependent response. Otherwise, please more clearly disclose the partial loss of Evi function without Evi+ sEVs or state the intact function of Evi without sEVs as speculative.

      We agree that Wg is likely to be reaching the muscle in the absence of Evi exosomes via conventional secretory mechanisms, and have conducted new experiments to test this hypothesis (Fig. 5). In Drosophila muscles, Wg does not signal via a conventional b-catenin pathway. Instead, neuronally-derived Wg activates cleavage of its receptor Fz2, resulting in translocation of a Fz2 C-terminal fragment into the nucleus (Mathew et al., 2005; Mosca and Schwarz, 2010). We did attempt to directly measure Wg (using antibodies or knockins) and though we were able to detect a specific presynaptic signal, the background noise throughout the postsynaptic muscle was too high for a sensible quantification. In response to the reviewer’s question and also R2.6), we collaborated with the laboratory of Timothy Mosca to test Fz2 nuclear import in Tsg101 and Hrs mutants (new Figure 5F-G). Strikingly, we found that Hrs mutants, despite being extremely sickly, have normal nuclear import of Frizzled. We also confirmed that Hrs mutants have dramatically depleted levels of all EV cargoes examined, including Evi (Figure 2A-F). On the other hand we found that Tsg101 knockdowns have dramatically reduced Wg signaling (and a concomitant defect in postsynaptic development). We do not rule out (but think it is unlikely) that very small amounts of EVs could be present in hrs but not tsg101 mutants. A more parsimonious interpretation is that additional membrane trafficking defects in the Tsg101 mutants (which are beyond the scope of this study to explore in detail) block an alternative mode of Wg release, perhaps conventional secretion. The fact that Hrs mutants, despite showing similar depletion of Evi EVs, do not have a signaling defect strongly argues that EV release per se is not required for Wg signaling.

      R1.6 To support the authors' hypothesis that Syt4 transmission via EVs is a proteostatic mechanism, the authors should determine whether Syt4 cargo localizes to lysosomal compartments in muscle, glia, or both. Otherwise, the proteostatic degradation of Syt4 via EVs is speculative.

      Our data suggest that EVs serve as one of several parallel proteostatic mechanisms for presynaptic cargoes. We have added new data to the manuscript to emphasize the advance our work makes in our understanding of these mechanisms, and have emphasized this in the discussion on p 11-12, lines 46-5).


      1. Degradation of neuronally derived EVs in glia and muscles. Previous work has shown that EV cargoes such as Evi can be found in compartments in the muscle cytoplasm, and that a-HRP-positive puncta are taken up and degraded by glial and muscle phagocytosis (Fuentes-Medel et al., 2009). These a-HRP-positive structures, despite colocalizing with EV cargoes Syt4, Nrg and APP (Walsh et al., 2021), were not previously connected to EVs. We have added new data showing that muscle or glial-specific RNAi of the phagocytic receptor Draper leads to the accumulation of EVs containing Syt4 (new Figure 7G-H)). Together with our finding (Figure 7A-F) that Syt4 is not significantly detected in the muscle cytoplasm, these results indicate that the main destination for transynaptic transfer is phagocytosis by the recipient cell. We have not been able to convincingly detect EV cargoes in the endolysosomal system of muscles, even in mutants disrupting lysosomal traffic, likely because the small number of EVs released by neurons (even over days of development) are drastically diluted in the much larger muscle cell.
      2. Compensatory endosomophagy in the neuron. __When EV release is blocked in Hrs or Tsg101 mutants, we observe an induction of autophagy in the neuron (__Figure 3B, E-G). However, in the absence of ESCRT manipulation, autophagy mutants do not accumulate EVs (Figure 3C,D. S2H-I). This suggests that autophagy is a compensatory mechanism that is induced in the absence of EV release.
      3. Retrograde transport to cell bodies: We previously found that disruption of neuronal dynactin leads to accumulation EV cargoes in presynaptic terminals (Blanchette et al., 2022), suggesting that retrograde transport is a mechanism for removal of these cargoes from synapses. Interestingly, EV release is not increased in these conditions, indicating that the retrogradely transported compartment represents a late endosome without ILVs, or an MVB that cannot fuse with the plasma membrane.

        R1.7 Please discuss alternate modes of cargo transfer from the presynaptic compartment to the postsynaptic compartment that may be utilized when EV-mediated transfer is abolished (i.e., cytonemes or tunneling nanotubules).

      We have added these possibilities to the discussion (p11 line 31), though we note that we do not observe any such structures, or indeed any Syt4 in the muscle cytoplasm, and there is no current evidence for such transsynaptic structures in this system. Conventional secretion of Wg into the extracellular space and signaling through its transmembrane receptor Frizzled2 can account for Wg signaling in the absence of exosomes.

      R1.8 OPTIONAL: Investigate the mechanism of Syt4+ sEV fusion with the postsynaptic compartment (direct fusion with the plasma membrane, receptor-mediated fusion, endocytosis and unpacking, or endocytosis and degradation).

      We note that the Budnik lab has already shown that HRP-positive EVs released by NMJs are taken up by glia and muscles (Fuentes-Medel et al., 2009), and we have added data showing that this also applies for Syt4 (Fig. 7). Our data are not consistent with Syt4 fusing with recipient cell membranes or entering the muscle cytoplasm. Further investigation of this mechanism is beyond the scope of this project.

      Given that several fundamental questions have yet to be answered regarding the biogenesis pathways and machinery utilized for EV-mediated cargo secretion, and the necessity for further TEM studies and/or work with primary cultures to characterize ILVs and EVs, >6 months is estimated to perform the necessary experiments that may require learning/ optimizing new systems.

      Minor comments:

      R1.9 Please clarify the choice of using Tsg101 KD in place of mutants of other ESCRT machinery (i.e., Hrs). Especially as when the Tsg101 mutant was characterized, you found major defects in autophagic flux that were not present for HrsD28/Df.

      Tsg101 RNAi was selected since it provides a neuron-autonomous knockdown, eliminating the complications of mutant effects in other tissues. These animals are also relatively healthy as third instar larvae compared to genomic mutants tsg1012 (L1 lethal) and HrsD28 or motor-neuron driven Vps4DN (where L3 larvae are rare). This made it easier to recover enough larvae to properly power experiments, and alleviated concerns that general sickness is contributing to the phenotype (though note that neuronal Tsg101KD does result in pupal lethality). Finally, we were unable to effectively knock down Hrs by RNAi (see R1.1). To extend our studies beyond Tsg101, we have included additional experiments in the revised manuscript showing that HrsD28 animals, despite being quite unhealthy, still retain Syt4-dependent functional plasticity (See R2.5 and R3.4) and Wg signaling.

      R1.10 Please clarify why the specific method in experiment in Fig. 4E-J was chosen. As Syt4 is a transmembrane protein, is likely undergoes degradation via the lysosome, like other membrane-bound proteins. Is it known whether the proteasome-directed nanobody is sufficient to pull Syt4 from membrane-bound compartments to undergo degradation in the proteasome? Would it make more sense to use a lysosome-directed nanobody?

      The GFP tag on Syt4 is cytosolic rather than lumenal. Our data show that when we express the proteosome-directed nanobody presynaptically, it efficiently degrades membrane-associated Syt4-GFP (Fig. 7B). Therefore we expect that this tool should be similarly effective on membrane-associated Syt4-GFP if it were exposed to the muscle cytoplasm. We have confirmed that it is effective in the muscle against DLG-GFP (Fig. S5A)

      R1.11 Please provide further methodological information regarding the sample preparation for live imaging of axons to generate kymographs found in Fig. S3.

      Additional details have been provided on p14 lines 10-24 and p15 lines 31-37.

      R1.12 In Figure 1I and 1J, include representative image and quantification of Syt4-GFP pre- and post-synaptic intensity for HrsD28/Df for consistency with ShrubKD and Vps4DN in Figure 1K-P.

      We generated and tested HrsD28; Syt4-GFP (Fig 2A,D), and HrsD28; Evi-GFP strains (Fig 2B-E). All EV cargoes exhibited a dramatic post-synaptic depletion in Hrs mutants, similar to the other ESCRT manipulations.

      R1.13 In Figure 2H, please provide a cell type marker or HRP mask with a merged image for image clarity.

      This image shows neuronal cell bodies in the ventral ganglion, which are densely packed relative to each other. The cell type specificity is provided by the motor neuron driver. We did not use a cell type marker or individually mask cells for analysis, but instead quantified intensity over the whole field of view. We can manually trace cell bodies in this image if requested, but it would not represent our ROI for analysis.

      R1.14 In Figure 4B, please provide quantification for the differences between 1) WT Mock and Tsg101 MOCK and 2) WT Stim and Tsg101KD Stim to show that upon stimulation, WT and Tsg101 undergo the same increase in the number of ghost boutons/ NMJ in Muscle 4.

      We have added these statistical comparisons to the graph (Fig. 6B)

      R1.15 In Figure 3 G and H, use consistent scale bars to compare between temperatures.

      We have removed the Shrub data at 20º as it did not provide additional insight to the manuscript.

      Reviewer #1 (Significance (Required)):

      General assessment (Strengths):

      -Use of Drosophila NMJ model system consistent with others in the field and exceptional harnessing of genetic tools for mutations across the ESCRT pathway (-0, -I, -III, etc.) -Identification of ESCRT pathway mutants that do not deplete pre-synaptic cargo levels but generate endosomal dysfunction, indicative of a possible decrease in secretion of cargoes via EVs -Implementing functional characterization of Evi/ Wg and Syt4 cargoes, consistent with previous work in the field; highly reproducible

      -Sufficiently thorough investigation of the cross-regulation of autophagy and EV biogenesis by Tsg101

      General assessment (Weaknesses):

      -Lack of investigation of known ESCRT-independent pathways/ genes involved in the generation of sEVs (i.e., nSMase2/ Ceramide) especially as it is unknown if minor sources of cargo+ EVs are sufficient in maintaining functional phenotype

      See R1.3 for comments on this point

      -Lack of sEV characterization and validation of EVs derived from mutant

      We have added STED data to measure EV size, and described the challenges in EV membrane measurements by EM in the in vivo system.

      -Does not show the loss of cargoes of interest on EVs from mutants other than through back-up of cargoes in the presynaptic endocytic pathway (Rab7, Rab5, Rab11)

      We strongly disagree with this comment. We have explicitly measured the loss of numerous cargoes in postsynaptic structures that have been rigorously established to be EVs in this and previous publications. Our findings are not limited to back-up of presynaptic structures.

      -Lack of rigorous investigation of the claim that Evi and Syt4 are released via EVs for proteostatic means is missing. Authors should demonstrate the degradation of EV cargoes by recipient cells (either muscle OR glia)

      We have added new data and discussion on multiple and compensatory proteostatic pathways.

      -If EV-mediated cargo transfer is not required, authors should investigate alternate modes of cargo transfer more rigorously (i.e., diffusion of Wg, suggest/ test hypotheses for mechanism of Syt4 function or transfer).

      We have included discussion of alternate modes of transfer for Wg (i.e. conventional secretion). By contrast, for Syt4 we believe it is acting in the donor cell without transfer, and have included alternate interpretations of the previous literature that had suggested its function in muscles.

      Advance: -Compared with other recent in vivo studies of EVs where donor EVs are loaded with a cargo, such as Cre, which uniquely identifies recipient cells through Cre recombination-mediated expression of a fluorescent reporter (Zomer et al 2015, Cell), this study relies on the readout of fluorescently tagged cargo in the recipient cells to represent transfer via EVs. While numerous studies in the Drosophila field focus on the same small set of known EV cargoes at the NMJ (Koles et al., 2012; Gross et al., 2012; Korkut et al., 2013; Korkut et al., 2009; Walsh et al., 2021), there is a noticeable lack of EV characterization based on MISEV (i.e. TEM of EVs, size distribution, enrichment of well-known EV markers [https://doi.org/10.1080/20013078.2018.1535750]) that would significantly strengthen the work and make it more widely accepted in the EV field.

      As mentioned above, many of these criteria (including EV size and enrichment of known EV markers) are already established in the previous literature for this system. As requested, we have also added similar data to our revised manuscript.

      -In this study, the use of ESCRT machinery mutants is proven as a new technical method in delineating the role of EV cargoes in cell-autonomous versus EV-dependent functions. This is the first study, to my knowledge, that has leveraged mutants from both early and late ESCRT complexes for the study of EVs in Drosophila. Additionally, the finding that some cargoes may be able to carry out their signaling functions, independent of transfer via EVs, provides key mechanistic insight into one possible role of EVs as proteostatic shuttles for cargo. This work also begins to address a fundamental question in the field, which is to delineate roles that EVs actually carry out in physiological conditions, compared to the many roles that have been shown possible in vitro.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s insight into the impact of our work.

      Audience: -Basic research (endosomal biology, ESCRT pathway, cell signaling, neurodevelopment)

      -Specialized (Drosophila, Neurobiology; Extracellular Vesicles)

      -This article will be of interest to basic scientists in the field of endosomal trafficking and extracellular vesicle biology as well as though studying the nervous system in Drosophila melanogaster. As the field of extracellular vesicle biology has broad implications in the spread of pathogenic cargoes in cancer and neurodegenerative disease, the basic biology associated with EVs has some translational relevance.

      Expertise (Keywords):

      -ESCRT and nSMase2 EV biogenesis pathways

      -EV characterization in vitro/ live imaging studies

      -EV release and uptake

      -Neuronal and glial cell biology

      Reviewer #2 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      This manuscript addresses the role of exosome secretion in neuromuscular junction development in Drosophila, a system that has been proposed to depend on exosomes. In particular, delivery of Wingless via exosomes has been proposed to promote structural organization of the synapse. Previously, however, the studies that proposed this model targeted the cargoes themselves, rather than targeting exosome biogenesis or secretion. In this new study, exosome biogenesis is targeted via knockdown of the ESCRT components Hrs, TSG101, and Chmp4. The authors find that some previously ascribed functions are not inhibited by these knockdowns. In particular, formation of active zones, as defined by BRP-positive puncta (total and per micrometer), and total bouton numbers. It does look like there is a partial defect in BRP-positive puncta per micrometer, but it is not significant. For ghost bouton formation, there is a similar increase in evi-mutant and ESCRT-KD NMJs (with some subtle differences depending on abdominal segment and temperature). They also examine the role of Syt4, which has been proposed to be transferred from nerve to muscle cells at the junction and to regulate mEJP frequency after stimulation. They found no difference in mEJP frequency after stimulation between WT and TSG101-KD animals, although they did not have a positive control with inhibition of Syt4. They did do an elegant experiment to demonstrate that most of extracellularly transferred Syt4 does not reach the muscle cytoplasm. Overall, it is an interesting paper, mostly well controlled and rigorous, and well-written. It is an important contribution to the EV and NMJ fields. The data should provoke reconsideration of some of the functions that were previously ascribed to exosome transfer at the NMJ. However, I do think that there are some overly strong statements and the functions of the exosomes at the synapse were quite narrowly examined. For example, the title of the paper is pretty strong and the abstract does not say which functions were or were not affected by TSG101 KD. There are also a couple of experiments that would enhance the manuscript. Some specific suggestions are below:

      R2.1 Title: "ESCRT disruption provides evidence against signaling functions for synaptic exosomes" seems a bit broad -- only evi/Wg and Syt4 functions were examined at NMJ synapses, not all signaling functions of all exosomes at all synapses. Something like, "ESCRT disruption provides evidence against signaling functions for exosome-carried evi/Wg and Syt4 at the neuromuscular junction" seems a bit more reasonable.

      We are open to changing the title to: “ESCRT disruption provides evidence against transsynaptic signaling functions for some extracellular vesicle cargoes” though we prefer to leave it as is since “provides evidence against” is already fairly understated.

      __ __R2.2 Abstract: the description of the actual data is very little, just one sentence saying that "many" of the signaling functions are retained with ESCRT depletion. I think a bit more focus on the actual data is warranted.

      We have edited the abstract to include more detail on the signaling phenotypes.

      __

      __R2.3 Results section:

      Fig 3: What does A2 and A3 mean for the graphs in c,d,e, g, h? Please specify in figure legend.

      We have described in the figure legends that A2 and A3 refer to specific abdominal segments in the larvae.

      R2.4 The sentence "Further, active zones in Tsg101KD appeared morphologically normal by TEM (Fig.2B)." is confusing to me. What do you mean by that? Are you referring to the following two sentences about feathery DLG and SSR? But the feathery DLG I presume is in Fig 3, where that staining is. And I also don't know what feathery DLG means -- it should be pointed out in the appropriate image.

      Presynaptic active zones are defined by an electron-dense T-shaped pedestal at sites of synaptic vesicle release, and can be seen in the TEM in what is now Figure 3B, marked as AZ. We have also labeled AZ by immunofluorescence (Fig. 5A) and they appear normal.

      By contrast, Dlg primarily labels the postsynaptic apparatus associated with the infoldings of the muscle membrane. In control animals, Dlg immunostaining is relatively tightly and smoothly clustered within ~1µm of the presynaptic neuron. By contrast, in Evi mutants, there are wisps of Dlg-positive structures extending from the bouton periphery. We have added arrows in what is now Fig. 5C to indicate the feathery structures.

      R2.5 Fig 4 addresses Syt4 function. However, there is no positive control inhibiting Syt4 to see if there is a change. Just comparison of WT and TSG101. It seems like this positive control is in order.

      We have added the positive control (Fig. 6E-F) reproducing the previously reported result that Syt4 mutants lack the high-frequency stimulation-induced increase in mEPSP frequency (HFMR). We have also added new data on HrsD28 genomic mutants. Despite the fact that few of these larvae survive and they are quite unhealthy, they still exhibit robust HFMR, similar to the Tsg101KD larvae, strongly supporting our hypothesis.

      R2.6 Discussion: I think some discussion of what ghost boutons are and what the possible significance is of the evi and ESCRT mutant phenotype of enhanced ghost bouton formation

      We have added more discussion on the ghost bouton phenotype (p11 lines 5-14), especially in light of our new findings that Hrs and Tsg101 mutants may distinguish alternative modes of Wg secretion (see R1.5)

      R2.7 Also, in the Discussion, it is mentioned that Wg probably gets secreted in the ESCRT mutants -- presumably this accounts for the discrepancy between evi mutants and the ESCRT mutants. An experiment to actually test this would greatly enhance the manuscript.

      We have added this experiment as addressed in R1.5

      Reviewer #2 (Significance (Required)):

      Overall, it is an interesting paper, mostly well controlled and rigorous, and well-written. It is an important contribution to the EV and NMJ fields. The data should provoke reconsideration of some of the functions that were previously ascribed to exosome transfer at the NMJ. However, I do think that there are some overly strong statements and the functions of the exosomes at the synapse were quite narrowly examined. For example, the title of the paper is pretty strong and the abstract does not say which functions were or were not affected by TSG101 KD.

      Reviewer #3 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      Dresselhaus et al. investigates signaling functions for synaptic exosomes at the Drosophila NMJ. Exosomes are widely seen in vivo and in vitro. They are clearly sufficient to induce signaling responses in vitro, but whether they normally fulfill signaling functions in vivo has not been rigorously addressed. The authors make use of several mutants that block exosome release to test whether exosome release is important for two distinct signaling pathways: the Evi/Wg pathway and the Syt4 signaling pathway. Both pathways have been implicated in neuron to muscle signaling. Surprisingly, the authors find scant evidence that exosome release is required for either pathway. They convincingly show that knockdown of Tsg101 (an ESCRT-I component) does not phenocopy many synaptic phenotypes of either wg or syt4. Instead, they propose that in vivo, exosomes may serve as a proteostatic mechanism, as a mechanism for the neuron to dispose of unwanted/damaged proteins.

      Specific comments are below:

      R3.1 Loss of Tsg101 has been linked to upregulated MAPK stress signaling pathways and autophagy. Thus, it's possible that activating such compensatory mechanisms in Tsg101 knockdown animals could mask phenotypes associated with specific loss of EV cargoes such as Wg or Syt4. Indeed, the authors demonstrate that loss of Tsg101 and Hrs have very different effects on synaptic autophagy. To provide additional evidence that Wg or Syt4 signaling is independent of EV release, it would be good to check for wg/syt4 phenocopy in additional ESCRT complex mutants. I understand they did a bit with Shrub knockdown at low temperature in Figure 3, but the temperature-dependence of the ghost bouton phenotype clouds the interpretation. Could the authors try a motorneuron driver with a more restricted phenotype to overcome the lethality issues, or alternatively use one of their other ESCRT component mutants? This is obviously the central claim of the manuscript, and it would be strengthened by carrying out phenotypic analysis in mutants other than the Tsg101 RNAi line.

      As noted for R2.5, we have added HFMR experiments for the HrsD28 genomic mutant, and found that despite being very unhealthy, they exhibit robust HFMR similar to Tsg101KD. We also confirmed dramatic depletion of Syt4 EVs in the HrsD28 mutant. Thus, the preserved Syt4 signaling function in ESCRT mutants with depleted EV Syt4 is not restricted to Tsg101, and does not depend on the co-occurring autophagy phenotype.

      R3.2 In Figure 1, the authors show that neuronal Tsg101 RNAi dramatically reduces "postsynaptic" levels of exosome cargoes at the L3 stage to argue that exosome release is blocked in this mutant. While this seems very likely at the L3 stage, it is unclear when Tsg101 levels are reduced and thus when exosome release is impaired in this background. This is important because we don't know when these signaling pathways act. For example, it is possible that the critical period for Wg and Syt4 signaling is during the L1 stage, and that Tsg101 knockdown is incomplete at that stage. It is important to assay exosome release at earlier larval stage, particularly when RNAi is the method used to reduce gene function.

      We have conducted this experiment. We noted accumulation of cargoes in Tsg101KD L1 larvae, indicating that the RNAi is effective early in development. However, we do not find many EVs in either wild-type or Tsg101KD first instar larvae (red is a-HRP, green is Syt4-GFP). This argues that it is unlikely that EV-mediated signaling has a critical period earlier in development. It is likely that the accumulation of EVs that we observe trapped in the muscle membrane reticulum in third instar larvae were laid down over days or hours of development. We do not propose to include these data in the manuscript unless the editors and reviewers prefer that we do so.

      R3.3 If the Syt4 and Evi exosomes do not serve major signaling roles and are in fact neuronal waste, it seems likely they are phagocytosed by glia. Are levels of non-neuronal Syt4/Evi levels increased when glial phagocytosis in blocked (eg in draper mutants)?

      As mentioned above, the Budnik lab previously showed that uptake and degradation of postsynaptic a-HRP-positive structures depends on glial and muscle phagocytosis.a-HRP recognizes a number of neuronally-derived glycoproteins (Snow et al., 1987). Though the Budnik lab had not previously linked these structures to EVs, we do know that they very strongly colocalize with known EV cargoes and depend on the exact same membrane traffic machinery for release, arguing that some a-HRP antigen proteins are also EV cargoes (Blanchette et al., 2022). To close this loop. we have added data showing that Syt4-positive EVs also depend on Draper for their clearance (Fig 7).

      R3.4 For the HFMR experiment, it would be good to see the syt4-dependent phenotype as a positive control.__ __

      As mentioned for R2.5, we have added the Syt4 positive control (Figure 6E,F), which fails to show HFMR as expected.

      .__ __R3.5 In the abstract, the authors state that, "the cargoes are likely to function cell autonomously in the motorneuron". Isn't it alternatively possible that these proteins (wg in particular) could signal to the muscle in a non-exosome dependent pathway?

      Yes, we believe that Wg is likely released by another mechanism (perhaps conventional secretion). As noted for R1.5 and R2.6, we have added new data in Fig. 5 showing that Frizzled nuclear import IS NOT disrupted in Hrs mutants, despite dramatic loss of Evi EVs. Interestingly Frizzled nuclear import (and postsynaptic development) IS altered in neuronal Tsg101KD larvae, which disrupt additional membrane trafficking pathways beyond EV release (see Fig. 3). This is particularly interesting in light of the normal Syt4 signaling in Tsg101KD larvae, and supports the hypothesis that Syt4 can function without leaving the neuron, while Wg must be released, albeit not via Hrs-dependent EV formation. Another (less parsimonious) interpretation is that very small amounts of Wg release in the Hrs mutant are sufficient to promote Frizzled nuclear import.

      Reviewer #3 (Significance (Required)):

      This is an important paper that is well-organized and logically presented. It makes a clear and largely compelling case against major signaling roles for exosomes at this synapse. The authors should be commended for publishing this work, which demands a re-evaluation of proposed key roles for exosomes at the fly NMJ. Given the intense interest in exosomes in neurobiology, this paper will be of great interest to neuronal cell biologists working across systems.

      We thank the reviewer for their appreciation of the impact of our work on the field.

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    Annotators

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      Reply to the reviewers

      Response to reviewer comments

      R: We really appreciate the reviewer positive comments and consideration, and we believe that the review process has significantly strengthened our manuscript.

      We have responded to all the reviewer comments, as follows:

      Response (R)

      FROM REVIEWER #1

      Major comments:

      The manuscript is mostly well written (it could use a few minor grammatical corrections), the significance of the problem is well described, and the results are clearly presented with adequate controls. The movies, provided as supplementary material, are of the highest quality and are essential additions to the stills provided in the figures. The data convincingly support the key conclusions of the manuscript.

      R: We sincerely appreciate the positive comments provided by the reviewer. In response, we have thoroughly revised the manuscript to address any grammatical issue.

      Does the MO knockdown both S and L homeologs of X. laevis? Since the level of GAPDH in Figure 1H also looks reduced in Gai2 MO lane, it should be made clear that the apparent knockdown of Gai2 was normalized to GAPDH, rather than being the results of unequal loading of the gel. Yes, I recognize that Figure 1I says normalized, but this is not stated in the results or the methods. Also, was this experiment done with X. laevis or X. tropicalis? I could imagine that if done in X. laevis, the lack of complete knockdown might be due to only one homeolog being affected.

      R: We appreciate the reviewer comment, and we described in Material and Methods section the region targeted by the morpholino, in both Xenopus species. We added the next paragraph in the Material and Methods section, see page 24, paragraph 2, lines: 4-11:

      "MO against Xenopus Gαi2 was designed by GeneTools to target the 5' UTR site of X. tropicalis (X.t) and X. laevis (X.l) transcripts (Gαi2MO: 5'-CGACACAGCCCCAGATAGTGCGT-3'). Specifically, it hybridizes with the 5' UTR of X. t Gαi2 (NM_203919), 17 nucleotides upstream of the ATG start codon. For X. l Gαi2, the morpholino hybridizes with both isoforms described in Xenbase. It specifically targets the 5' UTR of the Gαi2.L isoform (XM_018258962), located 17 nucleotides upstream of the ATG start codon, and the 5' UTR of the Gαi2.S isoform (NM_001097056), situated 275 nucleotides upstream of the ATG."

      With respect to Figure 1H and 1I, we have specified in the Fig. 1 legend that we normalized the data to GAPDH to quantifying the decrease in Gαi2 expression induced by the morpholino.

      See page 40, Figure 1H-I, Legends section. Finally, the result showed in Fig. 1A-I was done in X.t., that was now stated at the legend from the figure. We added at the Supplementary material Fig.1S, the result done in X.l. experiment.

      The knowledge of the efficacy of knockdown in each Xenopus species provided by the information requested in the previous point, would allow the reader to assess the level of knockdown in the remaining assays. To do this, the authors should tell us which assays were done in which species. I am not suggesting that each experiment needs to be done in each species, only that the information should be provided. If the MO is more effective in X. tropicalis - which assays used this species? If the knock down is partial, as shown in Figure 1H-I, which species this represents in the remaining assays would be useful knowledge.

      R: We greatly appreciate the reviewer's valuable comments and suggestions, and as a response, we have incorporated a new supplementary figure (Figure S1). This figure includes a western blot and an in situ hybridization assay illustrating the efficiency of the knockdown in Xenopus laevis. The results presented in Figure S1 demonstrate that the knockdown efficiency is similar in both Xenopus species, allowing for a comparison between Figure 1A-I (X. tropicalis) and Figure 1S (X. laevis).

      To complement this information, we have also improved the section of Material and Methods regarding the experiments in both Xenopus species (Xenopus tropicalis and Xenopus laevis). As detailed in the Materials and Methods section, we employed 20 ng of Gai2MO for Xenopus tropicalis embryos and 35 ng of Gai2MO for Xenopus laevis embryos to deplete cell migration. In both species, in vivo migration was analyzed, resulting in a substantial inhibition of cranial neural crest (NC) migration, ranging from 60% to 80%. Additionally, we conducted dispersion assays in both species. In X. laevis, in vitro migration was monitored for 10 hours, while in X. tropicalis, it was tracked for 4 hours, both yielding the same phenotype. We also studied cell morphology and microtubule dynamics in both Xenopus models. However, we used different tracer concentrations for each, with 200 pg for X. laevis and 100 pg for X. tropicalis, as specified in the Materials and Methods section. Our Rac1 and RhoA timelapse experiments were conducted in both species as well, employing pGBD-GFP and rGBD-mCherry probes, respectively, and different probe concentrations as outlined in the Materials and Methods section. These experiments revealed polarity impairment and consistent Rac1 behavior in both Xenopus species. The study of focal adhesion in vivo dynamics using the FAK-GFP tracer was carried out also in both species, resulting in the same phenotype. It is worth noting that the only experiment conducted exclusively in X. tropicalis was the focal adhesion disassembly assay with nocodazole.

      Regarding the improvements of the Materials and Method section see page 24, paragraph 1.

      We want to highlight that at the beginning of the Materials and Methods section, we incorporated a paragraph to clarify that "All experiments were conducted in both Xenopus species (X.t and X.l) using distinct concentrations of the morpholino (MO) and mRNA, as specified in each respective methodology description". This approach consistently yielded similar results. It is important to note that for the figures, we selected the most representative images.

      We have also specified in each figure legend which Xenopus species is depicted.

      Minor comments:

      While prior studies are referenced appropriately, and the text and figures are mostly clear and accurately presented, the following are a few suggestions that would help the authors improve the presentation of their data and conclusions:

      The cell biological experiments convincingly demonstrate that knockdown of Gai2 causes cells to move more slowly. It would be a nice addition to bring the explant experimental data back to the embryo by showing whether the slower moving NC cells in morphants eventually populate the BA. DO they cease to migrate or are they just slower getting to their destination? This could be done by performing snail2 ISH at a later stage (34-35?).

      R: We appreciate the reviewer's insightful point, and in response, we conducted the in situ hybridization assay at stages 32-36 to address this question. The result has been included in Figure S1F-H, revealing a delayed migration of cranial neural crest cells. Consequently, we have updated the text in the results section, page 6, paragraph 1, line 18:

      "In later developmental stages, such as stage 32, WISH revealed alterations in migration as well, albeit to a lesser extent compared to the early stages (22-23). This suggests a phenotype characterized by delayed migration (supplementary material Fig S1F-H)."

      There are places in the manuscript where the authors use the terms "silencing" or "suppression" of Gai2, when they really mean reduced translation - their system is not a genetic knockout, as clearly demonstrated in Figure 1H-I. I suggest that more accurate wording be used.

      R: We appreciate the reviewer's comment, and we agree that the Gαi2 morpholino impedes Gαi2 translation, leading to a reduction in Gαi2 protein expression. Consequently, we have revised the entire manuscript, replacing the terms "silencing" and "suppression" with "knockdown".

      In Figures 1-5 there are scale of bars on the cell images, but these are not defined in any of the figure legends.

      R: We value the reviewer's comment, and we have revised all the figure legends by including the scale information. Each image has been scaled to 10 µm with varying magnifications.

      The abstract is the weakest section of the manuscript, and would have greater impact if it were more clearly written.

      R: We appreciate the reviewer's comment on the abstract, and we have revised and edited it to enhance its quality.

      Abstract:

      "Cell migration is a complex and essential process in various biological contexts, from embryonic development to tissue repair and cancer metastasis. Central to this process are the actin and tubulin cytoskeletons, which control cell morphology, polarity, focal adhesion dynamics, and overall motility in response to diverse chemical and mechanical cues. Despite the well- established involvement of heterotrimeric G proteins in cell migration, the precise underlying mechanism remains elusive, particularly in the context of development. This study explores the involvement of Gαi2, a subunit of heterotrimeric G proteins, in cranial neural crest cell migration, a critical event in embryonic development. Our research uncovers the intricate mechanisms underlying Gαi2 influence, revealing a direct interaction with the microtubule-associated protein EB1, and through this with tubulin, suggesting a regulatory function in microtubule dynamics modulation. Here, we show that Gαi2 knockdown leads to microtubule stabilization, alterations in cell polarity and morphology with an increased Rac1-GTP concentration at the leading edge and cell-cell contacts, impaired cortical actin localization and focal adhesion disassembly. Interestingly, in Gai2 depleted cells RhoA-GTP was found to be reduced at cell-cell contacts and concentrated at the leading edge, providing evidence of Gαi2 significant role in polarity. Remarkably, treatment with nocodazole, a microtubule-depolymerizing agent, effectively reduces Rac1 activity, restoring cranial NC cell morphology, actin distribution, and overall migration. Collectively, our findings shed light on the intricate molecular mechanisms underlying cranial neural crest cell migration and highlight the pivotal role of Gαi2 in orchestrating microtubule dynamics through EB1 and EB3 interaction, modulating Rac1 activity during this crucial developmental process."

      Reviewer #1 (Significance (Required)):

      The molecular regulation of cell movement is a key feature of a number of developmental and homeostatic processes. While many of the proteins involved have been identified, how they interact to provide motility has not been elucidated in any great detail, particularly in embryo-derived cells (as opposed to cell lines). The results obtained from the presented experiments are novel, in-depth and provide a novel paradigm for how G proteins regulate microtubule dynamics which in turn regulate other components of the cytoskeleton required for cell movement. The results will be applicable to many migrating cell types, not just neural crest cells.

      Because of the application of the data to many types of cells that migrate, the audience is expected to include a broad array of developmental biologists, basic cell biologists and those interested in clinically relevant aberrant cell migrations.

      R: We really appreciate the reviewer positive comments and consideration

      FROM REVIEWER #2

      Reviewer: Major comments:

      The authors aim to address two issues in this manuscript: a) the role of Gai2 in neural crest development; and b) the mechanism of Gai2 function. While they have done a good job demonstrating a role of Gai2 in NC migration both in vivo and in vitro as well as the effects of Gai2 knockdown on cytoskeleton dynamics, protein distribution of selected polarity and focal adhesion molecules, and Rac1 activation, the link between Gai2 and the downstream effectors is largely correlative. Because of this, the model suggesting the sequential events flowing from Gai2 to microtubule to Rac1 to focal adhesion/actin should be modified to allow room for direct and indirect regulation at potentially multiple entry points.

      R: We appreciate the valuable comments provided by the reviewer. To further elucidate the mechanism underlying Gαi2 regulation of cranial neural crest cell migration, we have incorporated new data from interaction analysis conducted by PLA (proximity ligand assay). This analysis supports our proposed model, indicating Gαi2 interacts with EB proteins to form a complex with tubulin, thereby regulating microtubules dynamics and subsequently influencing Rac1 and RhoA activity, cell morphology (actin cytoskeleton) and cell-matrix adhesion, ultimately affecting migration. However, we cannot exclude that this regulation may also involve other intermediary proteins, such as GEFs, GAPs, GDIs, and others. Finally, as a result, we have revised our model and its description to provide a more detailed explanation of the potential mechanism in line with the reviewer suggestion. Specifically, we have edited the discussion/conclusion, model and the legend for Figure 6. Please refer to page 16 (paragraph 1, 2 and 3), 22 (paragraph 1), 23 (paragraph 1), 44 (Legend Fig. 6).

      __Reviewer: __Specific major comments are as the following:

      Strengths:

      -Determination of a role of Gai2 in neural crest migration is novel.

      -The effect of Gai2 knockdown on membrane protrusion morphology and microtubule stability and dynamics are demonstrated nicely.

      -Quantification of experimental perimeters has been performed throughout the manuscript in all the figures, and statistical analysis is included in the figures.

      R: We appreciate the reviewer positive comments

      Weaknesses: -The heavy focus of the study on microtubule is due to the previous publication on the function of Gai2 in regulation of microtubule during asymmetrical cell division. However, the activity of Gai2 is likely cell type-specific, as it has not been shown to control microtubule during cytokinesis in general. It is equally likely that Gai2 primarily regulates Rac1 or actin regulators to influence both microtubule and actin dynamics. The tone of the discussion should therefore be softened.

      R: We greatly appreciate and agree with the comment from the reviewer, highlighting the possibility that Gαi2 primarily regulates Rac1 or actin regulators to influence both microtubule and actin dynamics. In this regard, we have revised our manuscript to include a discussion of this point. We added the next paragraph in the Discussion/Conclusion section, page 22-23.

      "It is well established that the activity from the Rho family of small GTPases is controlling cytoskeletal organization during migration (Ridley et al., 2015). Contrariwise, it has been described in many cell types, that microtubules dynamic polymerization plays a crucial role in establishing the structural foundation for cell polarization, consequently influencing the direction of cell motility (Watanabe et al., 2005). Our results appear to align with this latter view. While it is reasonable to postulate the possibility that Gαi2 regulates Rac1 activity, subsequently influencing actin and microtubule dynamics, our findings in the context of cranial NC cells, lend support to an alternative sequence of events. Initially, Gαi2 knockdown leads to a decrease in microtubule dynamics, which in turn increase Rac-GTP towards the leading edge. This shift is accompanied by reduced levels of cortical actin and impaired focal adhesion disassembly, culminating in compromised cell migration. Notably, nocodazole, a microtubule-depolymerizing agent, not only diminishes Rac-GTP localization at the leading edge but also rescues cell morphology, restores normal cortical actin localization, and promotes focal adhesion disassembly, thereby facilitating cell migration. If Rac1 activity were indeed upstream of microtubules, it would be expected that nocodazole would not reduce Rac-GTP levels at the cell leading edge. These results suggest that the regulation of Rac1 activity may follow, rather than precede, alterations in microtubule dynamics, in the context of NC cells. Furthermore, in support of our model, our protein interaction analysis demonstrates Gαi2 interacting with microtubule components such as EB proteins and tubulin. As we already mention above, earlier studies have reported that microtubule dynamics promote Rac1 signaling at the leading edge and by releasing RhoGEFs promote RhoA signaling as well (Best et al., 1996; Garcin and Straube, 2019; Moore et al., 2013; Waterman-Storer et al., 1999). In addition, it is well-documented that RhoGEFs interact with microtubules, including bPix, a GEF for Rac1 and Cdc42, which, in turn, promotes tubulin acetylation (Kwon et al., 2020). Interestingly, in ovarian cancer cells, Gαi2 has been shown to activate Rac1 through an interaction with bPix, thereby jointly regulating migration in response to LPA (Ward et al., 2015). Taken together, these findings further support our proposed model (refer to Fig. 6)."

      The effect of rescue of NC migration with Rac1 inhibitor is marginal and the result is hard to interpret considering the inhibitor also blocks control NC migration. Either lower doses of Rac1 inhibitor can be used or the experiment can be removed from the manuscript, as Rac1 is required for membrane protrusions and the inhibitor doses can be hard to titrate.

      R: We appreciate and agree with the reviewer's comments. To address this concern and enhance clarity, we have incorporated the following paragraph into the manuscript within the Discussion section. Additionally, we have included information on the range of NSC23766 concentrations used for this analysis in the Materials and Methods section. Page 25, Explants and microdissection.

      In the results section see page 11 and 12, paragraph 2.

      "It is worth noting that we conducted Rac inhibitor NSC23766 trials at concentrations ranging from 20 nM to 50 nM for X. laevis and between 10 nM to 30 nM for X. tropicalis. In both cases, higher concentrations of the Rac inhibitor proved to be lethal (data not shown), underscoring the essential role of Rac1 in both cell migration and cell survival. Remarkably, our results show partial restoration in cranial NC cells dispersion following a 5-minute treatment with a low concentration of the Rac1 inhibitor (20 nM of NSC23766 X. laevis and 10 nM for X. tropicalis) (Fig. 3L-P, supplementary material movie S5). This suggests that these concentrations are sufficient to demonstrate that the increase in Rac1-GTP resulting from Gαi2 morpholino knockdown impairs cell migration."

      The partial rescue can be attributed to the crucial role of microtubule dynamics in cell migration, which acts upstream of Rac activity. Additionally, Rac is pivotal for the modulation of cell polarity at the leading edge of migration. It is worth emphasizing that Rac1 levels are critical for cell migration, as demonstrated by other researchers. Lower concentrations of Rac1-GTP have been shown to hinder cell migration in cells deficient in Rac1, leading to a significant reduction in wound closure and random cell migration (Steffen et al., 2013).

      "Therefore, we believe that the lower concentration of NSC23766 used in our assay was adequate to reduce the abnormal Rac1-GTP activity in the morphant NC cells. However, it is important to note that for normal NC cell, this level of reduction in Rac1-GTP activity is critical and sufficient to impair normal migration".

      See page 11 and 12, paragraph 2.

      Steffen A, Ladwein M, Dimchev GA, Hein A, Schwenkmezger L, Arens S, Ladwein KI, Margit Holleboom J, Schur F, Victor Small J, Schwarz J, Gerhard R, Faix J, Stradal TE, Brakebusch C, Rottner K. Rac function is crucial for cell migration but is not required for spreading and focal adhesion formation. J Cell Sci. 2013 Oct 15;126(Pt 20):4572-88. doi: 10.1242/jcs.118232. Epub 2013 Jul 31. PMID: 23902686; PMCID: PMC3817791.

      Since the defects seem to result partially from the inability of the NC cells to retract and move away, it may help to either include some data on Rho activation patterns in knockdown cells or simply add some discussion about the issue.

      R: We acknowledge and sincerely appreciate the reviewer's valuable comments on this pivotal aspect, which significantly enhances our capacity to elucidate the impact of Gαi2 knockdown on cell polarity. To address this crucial point, we have introduced an experiment that examines RhoA-GTP localization under Gαi2 knockdown conditions, and we have incorporated a supplementary figure S3 into our manuscript. This newly added figure clearly demonstrates that, under Gαi2 knockdown conditions, and in contrast to control cells, RhoA-GTP localization is substantially disrupted at cell-cell contacts and now detected at the leading edge of the cell, providing compelling evidence of cell polarity defects (refer to Figure S3A-C). In response to these results, we have included a description of these findings in the Results section (please see page 10) and a dedicated paragraph in the Discussion section (please see page 19, paragraph 2, last line, page 19-21).

      Results section 1 (page 10, paragraph 1 line 6-12): "To achieve this, we explored whether Gαi2 regulates the subcellular distribution of active Rac1 and RhoA in cranial NC explants under Gαi2 loss-of-function conditions, considering their pivotal roles in cranial NC migration and contact inhibition of locomotion (CIL) (Carmona-Fontaine et al., 2011; Moore et al., 2013; Leal et al., 2018). Hence, we employed mRNA encoding the small GTPase-based probe, enabling specific visualization of the GTP-bound states of these proteins."

      Results section 2 (page 10, paragraph 1 line 14-27): "Consistent with earlier observations by Carmona-Fontaine et al. (2011), in control cranial NC cells, active Rac1 displayed prominent localization at the leading edge of migrating cells, whereas its presence was reduced at cell-cell contacts, coincident with an increase in RhoA-GTP levels (white arrows in Fig. 3A, supplementary material Figure S3A,C). On the contrary, in comparison to the control cells, Gαi2 morphants exhibit a pronounced accumulation of active Rac1 protein in the protrusions at cell-cell contacts, where active RhoA localization is conventionally expected (white arrow in Fig. 4B, supplementary material Figure S3A,C and movie S4). In contrast to control cells, a notable shift in the localization of active RhoA protein was observed, with its predominant accumulation now detected at the leading edge of the cell, instead of the typical localization towards the trailing edge or cell-cell contacts (__supplementary material Figure S3B,C). __These findings suggest a dysregulation of contractile forces that align with the observed distribution of active RhoA, cortical actin disruption, and diminished retraction in cell treated with Gαi2MO."

      *Discussion section: (page 19 last line, page 20, paragraph 1, line 1-20) *

      "Other studies have reported that microtubule assembly promotes Rac1 signaling at the leading edge, while microtubule depolymerization stimulates RhoA signaling through guanine nucleotide exchange factors associated with microtubule-binding proteins controlling cell contractility, via Rho-ROCK and focal adhesion formation (Krendel et al., 2002; Ren et al., 1999; Best et al., 1996; Garcin and Straube, 2019; Waterman-Storer et al., 1999; Bershadsky et al., 1996; Moore et al., 2013). This mechanism would contribute to establishing the antero-posterior polarity of cells, crucial for maintaining migration directionality, underscoring the significance of regulating microtubule dynamics in directed cell migration. These findings closely align with the results obtained in this investigation, demonstrating that Gαi2 loss of function reduces microtubule catastrophes and promotes tubulin stabilization, resulting in increased localization of active Rac1 at the leading edge and cell-cell contacts, while decreasing active RhoA at the cell-cell contact but increasing it at the leading edge. This possibly reinforces focal adhesion, which is consistent with the presence of large and highly stable focal adhesions under Gαi2 knockdown conditions. This finding also suggests a dysregulation of contractile forces in comparison to control cells, a result that aligns with the observed distribution of active RhoA, cortical actin distribution and diminished retraction in cells treated with Gαi2MO. This strikingly contrasts with the normal cranial NC migration phenotype, where Rac1 is suppressed while active RhoA is increased at cell-cell contacts during CIL, leading to a shift in polarity towards the cell-free edge to sustain directed migration (Theveneau et al., 2010; Shoval and Kalcheim, 2012; Leal et al., 2018)."

      To consider focal adhesion dynamics, live imaging should be used in the analysis. The fixed samples are different from each other, and natural variations of focal adhesion may exist among the samples. This can obscure data collection and quantification.

      R: We agree with the reviewer that focal adhesion (FA) dynamics need to be analysed using live imaging. Indeed, Fig 5E-H shows an extensive analysis of FA using live imaging of neural crest expressing FAK-GFP. As complement to this live imaging analysis, and in order to analyse the effect on the endogenous levels of FA proteins, we performed immunostaining against FA. Both experiments using live imaging or fixed cells produce similar results, and they are consistent with our model on the role of Gαi2 on FA dynamics.

      Reviewer: minor comments

      Fig. 2, the centrosomes in control cells are not always obvious. The microtubules simply seem to be more networked and more fluid in control cells. This should be clarified with either marking the centrosomes in the figure or modifying the wording in the manuscript.

      R: We appreciate and concur with the reviewer's comment on this matter. As pointed out by the reviewer, the precise localization of the centrosome is not consistently clear in all cells. In response to this observation, we have revised the manuscript to emphasize this aspect solely as "microtubule morphology". Please refer to the Results section description Figure 2.

      In Fig. 3, a better negative control for co-IP should be using anti-V5 antibody to IP against tubulin/EB1/EB3 in the absence of Gai2-V5.

      R: We appreciate the reviewer's comment, and we agree with the suggested control. Accordingly, we have included this control in Supplementary material Figure S4A. Additionally, we conducted all Co-IPP in triplicate, and these data have been incorporated into Supplementary material Figure S4B. Furthermore, as mentioned earlier, we have reorganized some of the sections of the results to improve the logical flow of the manuscript's description. As a result, the Figure presenting the interaction analysis by Co-IPP now corresponds to Figure 5.

      The data for cell polarity proteins Par3 and PKC-zeta seem to be out of place. It is unclear whether mis-localization of these proteins has anything to do with NC migration defects induced by Gai2 knockdown. The conclusion does not seem to be affected if the data are taken out of the manuscript.

      R: We appreciate the reviewer's concern, and we would like to highlight two points in this regard. Firstly, we have included these results as additional data to support the impact of Gai2 knockdown on cell polarity, given that these two proteins are commonly used as polarity markers. Secondly, we have discussed this aspect extensively in the Discussion section of the manuscript. (See page 20, paragraph 1, lines 21-31).

      In that section, we delve into the relationship between aPKC, Par3, and Gαi2 in controlling cell polarity during asymmetric cell division, as described in Hao et al., 2010. Par3 is known to play a role in regulating microtubule dynamics and Rac1 activation through its interaction with Rac-GEF Tiam1 (Chen et al., 2005). Additionally, it has been shown to promote microtubule catastrophes and inhibit Rac1/Trio signaling, regulating Contact Inhibition of Locomotion (CIL) as demonstrated in Moore et al., 2013. Thus, we believe that the data we present support the relationship between Par3 and aPKC localization changes and the neural crest migration defects induced by Gαi2 knockdown, probably by controlling microtubule dynamics. However, we have moved these results as part of the supplementary Figure S3D-G.

      In Suppl. Fig. 1, protrusion versus retraction should be defined more clearly. The retraction shown in this figure seems to be just membrane between protrusions instead of actively retracting membrane.

      R: We appreciate the reviewer's comments, and here we aim to provide a clearer description of our approach to this analysis. For the measurement of protrusion extension/retraction, we conducted two distinct experiments. The first, as described in Figure 1, involved measuring membrane extension and retraction in live cell using membrane-GFP by utilizing the image subtraction tool in ImageJ, which highlights changes in the membrane in red. Secondly, we employed ADAPT software to quantify cell perimeter based on fluorescence intensity in live cell using lifeactin-GFP, distinguishing membrane extension in green and retraction in red (as has been shown similarly in Barry et al., 2015). In both approaches, we observed a substantial increase in membrane protrusion (both in area and extension) and protrusion stability in Gαi2 morphants. Hence, we have revised the Materials and Methods section of the manuscript and included this clarification.

      See Materials and Methods section, Cell dispersion and morphology, page 28.

      In addition we inform hat this images now are included in Supplementary material Fig S2G,H.

      Barry DJ, Durkin CH, Abella JV, Way M. Open source software for quantification of cell migration, protrusions and fluorescence intensities. J Cell Biol. 2015. Doi: 10.1083/jcb.201501081

      Discussion can be improved by better incorporating all the components to make a cohesive story on how Gai2 works to regulate migration in the context of the neural crest cells.

      R: We appreciate the reviewer's comment and agree. To enhance the manuscript, we have included a new paragraph at the end of the Discussion/Conclusion section specifically addressing this point. For more details, please refer to page 23.

      "Therefore, in the context of collective cranial NC cells migration, our findings reveal the pivotal role played by Gαi2 in orchestrating the intricate interplay of microtubule dynamics and cellular polarity. When Gαi2 levels are diminished, we observe significant impediments in the ability of cells to efficiently navigate through their environment, resulting in a range of distinct effects. First and foremost, Gαi2 deficiency leads to the diminished ability of cells to adjust and reorient new protrusions effectively. Primary protrusions exhibit higher stability and heightened levels of active Rac1/RhoA when compared to control conditions in the leading edge. In addition, we observe a notable increase in protrusion area, a decrease in retraction velocity, and an enhanced level of cell-matrix adhesion in Gαi2 knockdown cells. These findings underscore the pivotal role that Gαi2 plays in the modulation of various cellular dynamics essential for collective cranial NC cells migration. Notably, the application of nocodazole, a microtubule-depolymerizing agent, and NSC73266, a Rac1 inhibitor, to Gαi2 knockdown cells leads to the rescue of the observed effects, thus facilitating migration. This observed response closely mirrors the outcomes associated with Par3, a known regulator of microtubule catastrophe during contact inhibition of locomotion (CIL) in NC cells (Moore et al., 2013). This parallel implies that there exists a delicate equilibrium between microtubule dynamics and Rac1-GTP levels, crucial for the establishment of proper cell polarity during collective migration. Our findings collectively position Gαi2 as a central master regulator within the intricate framework of collective cranial NC migration. This master regulator role is pivotal in orchestrating the dynamics of polarity, morphology, and cell-matrix adhesion by modulating microtubule dynamics through interactions with EB1 and EB3 proteins, described here for the first time, possible in a protein complex involving other intermediary proteins such as other microtubules accessory proteins like CLIP170, actin intermediaries, like mDia1-2, and signaling proteins such as GDIs, GAPs and GEFs, thus fostering crosstalk between the actin and tubulin cytoskeletons. This orchestration ultimately ensures the effective collective migration of cranial NC cells (Fig. 6)."

      Review____er #2 (Significance (Required)):

      The authors demonstrate a role of Gai2 in regulation of neural crest migration in Xenopus by modulating microtubule dynamics. In addition, they show an effect of Gai2 knockdown on Rac1 spatial activation and focal adhesion stability. These are novel discoveries of the study. Some limitations exist in linking Gai2 with downstream effectors that directly or indirectly impact on cytoskeleton and Rac1 small GTPase.

      R: We really appreciate the reviewer positive comments and consideration. We believe that the review process has significantly strengthened our manuscript in this regard.

      FROM REVIEWER #3

      __ ____Reviewer: mayor comments:__

      The authors focus exclusively on the analysis of the subcellular levels of Rac1, which is probably related to the fact that they observe large extended protrusions with high Rac1 activity. However, as the authors note, a global fine-tuning of Rho GTPase activity is required for neural crest migration. One of the observed phenotypes of Gαi2-morphant neural crest cells is a decrease in cell dispersion, which may be caused by defects in contact inhibition of locomotion (CIL). This process involves a local activation of RhoA at cell-cell contact sites (Carmona-Fontaine et al., 2008). Furthermore, in fibroblast, RhoA/ROCK activity is required for the front-rear polarity switch during CIL (Kadir et al., 2011). Interestingly, similar to the Gαi2 loss of function phenotype, ROCK inhibition leads to microtubule stabilization, which can be rescued by nocodazole treatment, restoring microtubule dynamics and CIL. Therefore, it would also be interesting to know how RhoA activity is affected in Gαi2-morphant NC cells. At a minimum, this point should be be included in the discussion.

      R: We acknowledge and sincerely appreciate the reviewer's valuable comments on this pivotal aspect, which significantly enhances our capacity to elucidate the impact of Gαi2 knockdown on cell polarity. To address this crucial point, we have introduced an experiment that examines RhoA-GTP localization under Gαi2 knockdown conditions, and we have incorporated a supplementary figure S3A-C into our manuscript. This newly added figure clearly demonstrates that, under Gαi2 knockdown conditions and in contrast to control cells, RhoA-GTP localization is substantially disrupted at cell-cell contacts and now detected at the leading edge of the cell, providing compelling evidence of cell polarity defects (refer to Figure S3). In response to these results, we have included a description of these findings in the Results section (please see page 10) and a dedicated paragraph in the Discussion section (please see page 19-20).

      Results section 1 (page 10, paragraph 1 line 6-12): "To achieve this, we explored whether Gαi2 regulates the subcellular distribution of active Rac1 and RhoA in cranial NC explants under Gαi2 loss-of-function conditions, considering their pivotal roles in cranial NC migration and contact inhibition of locomotion (CIL) (Carmona-Fontaine et al., 2011; Moore et al., 2013; Leal et al., 2018). Hence, we employed mRNA encoding the small GTPase-based probe, enabling specific visualization of the GTP-bound states of these proteins."

      Results section 2 (page 10, paragraph 1 line 14-27): "Consistent with earlier observations by Carmona-Fontaine et al. (2011), in control cranial NC cells, active Rac1 displayed prominent localization at the leading edge of migrating cells, whereas its presence was reduced at cell-cell contacts, coincident with an increase in RhoA-GTP levels (white arrows in Fig. 3A, supplementary material Figure S3A,C). On the contrary, in comparison to the control cells, Gαi2 morphants exhibit a pronounced accumulation of active Rac1 protein in the protrusions at cell-cell contacts, where active RhoA localization is conventionally expected (white arrow in Fig. 4B, supplementary material Figure S3A,C and movie S4). In contrast to control cells, a notable shift in the localization of active RhoA protein was observed, with its predominant accumulation now detected at the leading edge of the cell, instead of the typical localization towards the trailing edge or cell-cell contacts (__supplementary material Figure S3B,C). __These findings suggest a dysregulation of contractile forces that align with the observed distribution of active RhoA, cortical actin disruption, and diminished retraction in cell treated with Gαi2MO."

      *Discussion section: (page 19, second paragraph, line 12 and page 20, paragraph 1, line 1-18) *

      "Other studies have reported that microtubule assembly promotes Rac1 signaling at the leading edge, while microtubule depolymerization stimulates RhoA signaling through guanine nucleotide exchange factors associated with microtubule-binding proteins controlling cell contractility, via Rho-ROCK and focal adhesion formation (Krendel et al., 2002; Ren et al., 1999; Best et al., 1996; Garcin and Straube, 2019; Waterman-Storer et al., 1999; Bershadsky et al., 1996; Moore et al., 2013). This mechanism would contribute to establishing the antero-posterior polarity of cells, crucial for maintaining migration directionality, underscoring the significance of regulating microtubule dynamics in directed cell migration. These findings closely align with the results obtained in this investigation, demonstrating that Gαi2 loss of function reduces microtubule catastrophes and promotes tubulin stabilization, resulting in increased localization of active Rac1 at the leading edge and cell-cell contacts, while decreasing active RhoA at the cell-cell contact but increasing it at the leading edge. This possibly reinforces focal adhesion, which is consistent with the presence of large and highly stable focal adhesions under Gαi2 knockdown conditions. This finding also suggests a dysregulation of contractile forces in comparison to control cells, a result that aligns with the observed distribution of active RhoA, cortical actin distribution and diminished retraction in cells treated with Gαi2MO. This strikingly contrasts with the normal cranial NC migration phenotype, where Rac1 is suppressed while active RhoA is increased at cell-cell contacts during CIL, leading to a shift in polarity towards the cell-free edge to sustain directed migration (Theveneau et al., 2010; Shoval and Kalcheim, 2012; Leal et al., 2018)."

      The co-Immunoprecipitation data lack marker bands (larger images/sections of the blots would be preferable) and the labelling is not clear. What do the white arrows in Fig. 3H,I mean? What does "elu" and "non eluted" mean?. ? Did the reverse IP work as well?

      R: We appreciate the reviewer's comments, and here we intend to provide a more detailed explanation of our approach to this analysis. Since we do not possess a secondary antibody specific to the heavy chain, our method involves eluting the co-immunoprecipitated proteins to visualize those with weights close to that of the light chain (such as EB1). We have outlined this elution step in the "Cell lysates and co-immunoprecipitation" protocol in the Materials and Methods section. To ensure proper control, we load both fractions - the eluted (or supernatant) and non-eluted (or resin) fractions - to monitor the amount of protein extracted from the resin using a 1% SDS solution. It's important to note that the elution step, as indicated by the V5 signal, is not entirely efficient, and a significant portion of the protein remains bound to the resin. This issue may also apply to the EB1 protein; however, it is still possible to visualize both bands (Gαi2V5 and EB1).

      As we mentioned earlier the Co-IPP analysis now are in Figure 5. We have revised the legend for Figure 5 to include an explanation of the terms 'elu' (eluted fraction) and 'non-eluted' (non-eluted fraction). We have also included the explanation of the white arrows' significance in the legends for Figure 5H and 5I. These arrows indicate the bands corresponding to the immunoprecipitated proteins.

      We also agree with the reviewer's suggestion to conduct the reverse IP. To address this point, and in favour of the lack of this control, accordingly, we have included a negative control for co-IP using anti-V5 antibody to IP, this control was included in Supplementary material Figure S4A. Additionally, we conducted all Co-IPP in triplicate, and these data have been incorporated into Supplementary material Figure S4B.

      The presentation of the Delaunay triangulations varies in quality. In Fig. 1 J/K the cells are clearly visible in the images, while this is not the case in Fig. 3 J-M and Fig. 4K-N. Conversely, the Delaunay triangulations in Fig. 1L are mainly black, while they are clear in Fig. 3 and 4. Perhaps the authors could find a more consistent way to present the data. Were the explants all approximately the same size at the beginning of the experiment? The Gαi2-morphant explant in Fig. 3K appears to be unusually small.

      R: We appreciate the reviewer's concerns and have taken steps to address them. To improve the quality of our data, we have made enhancements to the presentation of Figures 3 (panels L-O) and Figure 5 (panels P-S). Specifically, we have standardized the Delaunay triangulation representations.

      Regarding the size of the explants at the beginning of the experiments, they were indeed approximately similar in size. We confirmed this by including a reference point (point 0) for each condition in the figures 5. However, in the panels presented, we show the results after 10 hours (Figure 5, X. laevis, in the actual Figure organization) and 4 hours (Figure 3, X. tropicalis, in the actual Figure organization) to assess cell dispersion, as indicated in the respective figure legends. This uniformity in size was further ensured by the calculation used to quantify dispersion. For the dispersion assay, we normalized each initial size of the explant upon the control, and we have added another representative explant of Gαi2 morpholino with its Delaunay triangulation to facilitate the experiment interpretation. Every Delaunay triangulation calculates the area generated between three adjacent cells and it grows depending on how much disperse are the cells between each other in the final point. (See Material and Methods section, Cell dispersion and morphology). As we can see in the manuscript, in every dispersion experiment that we have performed with Gαi2 morpholino, the cells cannot disperse at all. Furthermore, to analyze the dispersion rate in this experiment we use Control n= 21 explants, Gαi2MO n= 24 explants, Gαi2MO + 65 nM Nocodazole n= 36 explants, Control + 65 nM Nocodazole n= 30 explants (as we mentioned in the manuscript legend).

      Why was the tubulin distribution in Fig. 2F measured from the nucleus to the cell cortex? Would it not make more sense to include cell protrusions? This does not seem to be the case in the example shown in Fig. 2F.

      R: We appreciate the reviewer's concern. We would like to clarify that for the tubulin distribution measurements, we indeed measured from the nucleus to the cell protrusion. As a result, we have made an edit to Figure 2 (panel 2F) to provide further clarity on this matter.

      The immunostaining for acetylated tubulin (Fig. 3A,B) looks potentially unspecific and seems to co-localize with actin (for comparison see Bance et al., 2019). For imaging and quantification, it may be better to use tubulin co-staining to calculate the percentage of acetylated tubulin. Please also add marker bands to the Western blot in Fig. 3C. If this issue cannot be resolved it may be better to only include the Western blot data.

      R: We appreciate the reviewer's concern about the potential unspecific nature of acetylated-tubulin and its co-localization with actin. Regarding the co-localization with actin, it is predominantly observed in panel B, and we attribute this phenomenon to the Gαi2 morphant phenotype, where cortical actin is notably reduced, creating the appearance of co-localization. In response to the reviewer comment, we have retained the acetylated tubulin western blot analysis in the main Figure 5A,B, while relocating the immunofluorescence analysis to Supplementary material Figure S4C-H. Additionally, we have included the measurements of the acetylated tubulin fluorescence intensity for both conditions Gαi2MO and control, as depicted Supplementary material Figure S4I.

      We have also included marker weight indications on the western blot panel in now Figure 5A.

      The model in Fig.6 indicates that Gαi2 inhibits EB1/3. What is the experimental evidence and the proposed mechanism for this? In the discussion, the authors cite evidence that Gαi activates the intrinsic GTPase activity of tubulin, which would destabilize microtubules by removing the GTP cap. However, this mechanism would not directly affect EB1 and EB3 stability as the Fig. 6A seems to suggest. The authors also mention that EB3 appears to be permanently associated with microtubules in Gαi2-morphant cells. How would this work, given that end-binding proteins bind to the cap region? Are the authors suggesting that there is an extended cap region in Gαi2 morphants?

      R: We appreciate the reviewer's valuable comments. We have revised our model accordingly to our data and new data that we have incorporated regarding interaction analysis conducted by PLA (proximity ligand assay), in order to further elucidate the mechanism underlying Gαi2 regulation of cranial neural crest cell migration. This analysis supports our actual proposed model, indicating Gαi2 interacts with EB proteins to form a complex with tubulin, thereby regulating microtubules dynamics and subsequently influencing Rac1 and RhoA activity, cell morphology (actin cytoskeleton) and cell-matrix adhesion, ultimately affecting migration. Therefore, we have revised our model and its description to provide a more detailed explanation of the potential mechanism in line with the reviewer suggestion. Specifically, we have edited the discussion/conclusion, model and the legend for Figure 6. Please refer to page 16 (paragraph 1, 2 and 3), 22 (paragraph 1), 23 (paragraph 1), 45 (Legend Fig. 6). In addition, in Gαi2 knockdown conditions we have found a strong reduction in microtubules dynamics following EB3-GFP comets. Regarding the observation that EB3 seems to be persistently associated with microtubules in Gαi2-morphant cells, we wish to clarify that this is a speculation based on the microtubule phenotype observed during our dynamic analysis, where they appear more like lines rather than comets. It is important to note that none of the experiments conducted in this study conclusively demonstrate this, and thus, it remains a suggestion. As a result, we have revised our model in accordance with the reviewer suggestion.

      Reviewer 3: minor comments:

      The citation of Wang et al. 2018 in the introduction does not seem to fit.

      R: We appreciate the correction provided by the reviewer. We have carefully reviewed the Introduction and Reference sections and have corrected this error.

      Does the graph in Fig. 4S show average values for the three conditions? If so, what is the standard deviation?

      R: We appreciate the reviewer's concern and we have added the standard deviation to now Figure 4J.

      From the images in Fig. 2G and H, it is difficult to understand what the difference is between the four groups shown.

      R: We appreciate the reviewer's comment, and to clarify this point, we would like to explain that the comparison has been made between each type of comet. The PlusTipTracker software separates comets based on their speed and lifetime, classifying them as fast long-lived, fast short-lived, slow long-lived, or slow short-lived. In both conditions (control and morphant cells), we compared the percentage of each type of comet, as previously described in Moore et al., 2013. The results demonstrate that morphant cells exhibit an increase in slow comets compared to control cells. The same explanation is described in the Material and Methods section on page 28, Microtubule dynamics analysis.

      Review____er #3: (Significance (Required)):

      Overall, the study is well executed and significantly advances our understanding of the control and role of microtubule dynamics in cell migration, which is much less understood compared to the function of the actin cytoskeleton in this process. The strength of the study is the use of state-of-the-art (live imaging) techniques to characterize the role of Gαi in neural crest migration at the cellular/subcellular level. This article will be of interest to a broad readership, including researchers interested in basic embryonic morphogenesis, cell migration, and cytoskeletal dynamics, as well as translational/clinical researchers interested in cancer progression or wound healing.

      R: We really appreciate the reviewer positive comments and consideration. We believe that the review process has significantly strengthened our manuscript.

    1. A Nota document is text mixed with commands, typically contained in a .nota file. A Nota document looks like this:

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    1. Author response:

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this work, Qiu and colleagues examined the effects of preovulatory (i.e., proestrous or late follicular phase) levels of circulating estradiol on multiple calcium and potassium channel conductances in arcuate nucleus kisspeptin neurons. Although these cells are strongly linked to a role as the "GnRH pulse generator," the goal here was to examine the physiological properties of these cells in a hormonal milieu mimicking late proestrus, the time of the preovulatory GnRH-LH surge. Computational modeling is used to manipulate multiple conductances simultaneously and support a role for certain calcium channels in facilitating a switch in firing mode from tonic to bursting. CRISPR knockdown of the TRPC5 channel reduced overall excitability, but this was only examined in cells from ovariectomized mice without estradiol treatment. The patch clamp experiments are comprehensive and overall solid but a direct demonstration of the role of these conductances in being necessary for surge generation (or at least having a direct physiological consequence on surge properties) is lacking, substantially reducing the impact of the findings.

      Strengths:

      (1) Examination of multiple types of calcium and potassium currents, both through electrophysiology and molecular biology.

      (2) Focus on arcuate kisspeptin neurons during the surge is relatively conceptually novel as the anteroventral periventricular nucleus (AVPV) kisspeptin neurons have received much more attention as the "surge generator" population.

      (3) The modeling studies allow for direct examination of manipulation of single and multiple conductances, whereas the electrophysiology studies necessarily require examination of each current in isolation. The construction of an arcuate kisspeptin neuron model promises to be of value to the reproductive neuroendocrinology field.

      We thank the reviewer for recognizing our comprehensive examination of Kiss-ARH neurons through electrophysiological, molecular and computational modeling of their activity during the preovulatory surge, which as the reviewer pointed out is “conceptually novel.” We will bolster our argument that Kiss1-ARH neurons transition from synchronized firing to burst firing with the E2-mediated regulation of channel expression with the addition of new experiments. We will address the weaknesses as follows:

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The novelty of some of the experiments needs to be clarified. This reviewer's understanding is that prior experiments largely used a different OVX+E2 treatment paradigm mimicking periods of low estradiol levels, whereas the present work used a "high E2" treatment model. However, Figures 10C and D are repeated from a previous publication by the same group, according to the figure legend. Findings from "high" vs. "low" E2 treatment regimens should be labeled and clearly separated in the text. It would also help to have direct comparisons between results from low E2 and high E2 treatment conditions.

      We will revise Figures 10C and 10D to include new findings on Tac2 and Vglut2 expression in OVX and E2-treated Kiss1ARH. We did show the previously published data (Qiu, eLife 2018) to contrast with Figures 10E, F showing the downregulation of TRPC5 and GIRK2 channels following E2 treatment. Most importantly, our E2 treatment regime is clearly stated in the Methods and is exactly the same that was used previously (Qiu, eLife 2016 and Qiu, eLife 2018) for the induction of the LH surge in OVX mice (Bosch, Molecular and Cellular Endocrinology 2013) .

      (2) In multiple places, links are made between the changes in conductances and the transition from peptidergic to glutamatergic neurotransmission. However, this relationship is never directly assessed. The data that come closest are the qPCR results showing reduced Tac2 and increased Vglut2 mRNA, but in the figure legend, it appears that these results are from a prior publication using a different E2 treatment regimen.

      In the revised Figure 1, we will now include a clear depiction of the transition from synchronized firing driven by NKB signaling in OVX females to burst firing driven by glutamate in E2-treated females. We have used the same E2 treatment paradigm as previously published (Qiu, eLife 2018).

      (3) Similarly, no recordings of arcuate-AVPV glutamatergic transmission are made so the statements that Kiss1ARH neurons facilitate the GnRH surge via this connection are still only conjecture and not supported by the present experiments.

      Using a horizontal hypothalamic slice preparation, we have shown that Kiss1-ARH neurons excite GnRH neurons via Kiss1ARH glutaminergic input to Kiss1AvPV neurons (summarized in Fig. 12, Qiu, eLife 2016). We do not think that it is necessary to repeat these experiments in the current manuscript.

      (4) Figure 1 is not described in the Results section and is only tenuously connected to the statement in the introduction in which it is cited. The relevance of panels C and D is not clear. In this regard, much is made of the burst firing pattern that arises after E2 treatment in the model, but this burst firing pattern is not demonstrated directly in the slice electrophysiology examples.

      We will revised Figure 1 to include new whole-cell, current clamp recordings documenting the burst firing in response to glutamate in E2-treated, OVX females.

      (5) In Figure 3, it would be preferable to see the raw values for R1 and R2 in each cell, to confirm that all cells were starting from a similar baseline. In addition, it is unclear why the data for TTA-P2 is not shown, or how many cells were recorded to provide this finding.

      Before initiating photo-stimulation for each Kiss1-ARH neuron, we adjust the resting membrane potential to -70 mV, as noted in each panel in Figure 3, through current injections. We will include new findings on the effects of the T-channel blocker TTA-P2 on slow EPSP in the revised Figure 3. The number of cells tested with each calcium channel blocker is depicted in each of the bar graphs summarizing the effects of the blockers.

      (6) In Figure 5, panel C lists 11 cells in the E2 condition but panel E lists data from 37 cells. The reason for this discrepancy is not clear.

      In Figure 5E, we measured the L-, N-, P/Q and R channel currents after pretreatment with TTA-P2 to block the T-type current, whereas in Figure 5C, we measured the current without TTA-P2.

      (7) In all histogram figures, it would be preferable to have the data for individual cells superimposed on the mean and SEM.

      In all revised Figures we will include the individual data points for the individual neurons.

      (8) The CRISPR experiments were only performed in OVX mice, substantially limiting interpretation with respect to potential roles for TRPC5 in shaping arcuate kisspeptin neuron function during the preovulatory surge.

      The TRPC5 channels are most important for generating slow EPSPs when expression of NKB is high in the OVX state. Conversely, the glutamatergic response becomes more significant when the expression of NKB and TRPC5 channel are muted. Therefore, the CRISPR experiments were specifically conducted in OVX mice to maximize the effects.

      (9) Furthermore, there are no demonstrations that the CRISPR manipulations impair or alter the LH surge.

      In this manuscript, our focus is on the cellular electrophysiological activity of the Kiss1ARH neurons in ovx and E2-treated females. Exploration of CRISPR manipulations related to the LH surge is certainly slated for future experiments, but these in vivo experiments are beyond the scope of these comprehensive cellular electrophysiological and molecular studies.

      (10) The time of day of slice preparation and recording needs to be specified in the Methods.

      We will provide the times of slice preparation and recordings in the revised Methods and Materials.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Kisspeptin neurons of the arcuate nucleus (ARC) are thought to be responsible for the pulsatile GnRH secretory pattern and to mediate feedback regulation of GnRH secretion by estradiol (E2). Evidence in the literature, including the work of the authors, indicates that ARC kisspeptin coordinate their activity through reciprocal synaptic interactions and the release of glutamate and of neuropeptide neurokinin B (NKB), which they co-express. The authors show here that E2 regulates the expression of genes encoding different voltage-dependent calcium channels, calcium-dependent potassium channels, and canonical transient receptor potential (TRPC5) channels and of the corresponding ionic currents in ARC kisspeptin neurons. Using computer simulations of the electrical activity of ARC kisspeptin neurons, the authors also provide evidence of what these changes translate into in terms of these cells' firing patterns. The experiments reveal that E2 upregulates various voltage-gated calcium currents as well as 2 subtypes of calcium-dependent potassium currents while decreasing TRPC5 expression (an ion channel downstream of NKB receptor activation), the slow excitatory synaptic potentials (slow EPSP) elicited in ARC kisspeptin neurons by NKB release and expression of the G protein-associated inward-rectifying potassium channel (GIRK). Based on these results, and on those of computer simulations, the authors propose that E2 promotes a functional transition of ARC kisspeptin neurons from neuropeptide-mediated sustained firing that supports coordinated activity for pulsatile GnRH secretion to a less intense firing in glutamatergic burst-like firing pattern that could favor glutamate release from ARC kisspeptin. The authors suggest that the latter might be important for the generation of the preovulatory surge in females.

      Strengths:

      The authors combined multiple approaches in vitro and in silico to gain insights into the impact of E2 on the electrical activity of ARC kisspeptin neurons. These include patch-clamp electrophysiology combined with selective optogenetic stimulation of ARC kisspeptin neurons, reverse transcriptase quantitative PCR, pharmacology, and CRIPR-Cas9-mediated knockdown of the Trpc5 gene. The addition of computer simulations for understanding the impact of E2 on the electrical activity of ARC kisspeptin cells is also a strength.

      The authors add interesting information on the complement of ionic currents in ARC kisspeptin neurons and on their regulation by E2 to what was already known in the literature. Pharmacological and electrophysiological experiments appear of the highest standards. Robust statistical analyses are provided throughout, although some experiments (illustrated in Figures 7 and 8) do have rather low sample numbers.

      The impact of E2 on calcium and potassium currents is compelling. Likewise, the results of Trpc5 gene knockdown do provide good evidence that the TRPC5 channel plays a key role in mediating the NKB-mediated slow EPSP. Surprisingly, this also revealed an unsuspected role for this channel in regulating the membrane potential and excitability of ARC kisspeptin neurons.

      We thank the reviewer for recognizing that the “pharmacological and electrophysiological experiments appear of the highest standards” and “the addition of the computer modeling for understanding the impact of E2 on the electrical activity of ARC kisspeptin cells is also a strength. However, we agree with the reviewer that we need to provide a direct demonstration of “burst-like” firing of Kiss1-ARH neurons. We will address the weaknesses as follows:

      Weaknesses:

      The manuscript also has weaknesses that obscure some of the conclusions drawn by the authors.

      One has to do with the fact that "burst-like" firing that the authors postulate ARC kisspeptin neurons transition to after E2 replacement is only seen in computer simulations, and not in slice patch-clamp recordings. A more direct demonstration of the existence of this firing pattern, and of its prominence over neuropeptide-dependent sustained firing under conditions of high E2 would make a more convincing case for the authors' hypothesis.

      We will provide a more direct demonstration of the existence of this firing pattern in the whole-cell current clamp experiments in the revised Figure 1.

      In addition, and quite importantly, the authors compare here two conditions, OVX versus OVX replaced with high E2, that may not reflect the physiological conditions (the diestrous [low E2] and proestrous [high E2] stages of the estrous cycle) under which the proposed transition between neuropeptide-dependent sustained firing and less intense burst firing might take place. This is an important caveat to keep in mind when interpreting the authors' findings. Indeed, that E2 alters certain ionic currents when added back to OVX females, does not mean that the magnitude of these ionic currents will vary during the estrous cycle.

      We have published that the magnitude of the slow EPSP, which is TRPC5 channel mediated, varies throughout the estrous cycle and the similarity to that found in OVX compared to E2-treated, OVX females (Figure 2, Qiu, eLife 2016). Moreover, TRPC5 channel mRNA expression, similar to the peptides, is downregulated by an E2 treatment (Figure 10 this manuscript) that mimics proestrus levels of the steroid (Bosch, Mol Cell Endocrinology 2013). Furthermore, the magnitude of ionic currents is directly proportional to the number of ion channels expressed in the plasma membrane, which we have found correlates with mRNA expression. Therefore, it is likely that the magnitude of these ionic currents will vary during the estrous cycle.

      Lastly, the results of some of the pharmacological and genetic experiments may be difficult to interpret as presented. For example, in Figure 3, although it is possible that blockade of individual calcium channel subtypes suppresses the slow EPSP through decreased calcium entry at the somato-dendritic compartment to sustain TRPC5 activation and the slow depolarization (as the authors imply), a reasonable alternative interpretation would be that at least some of the effects on the amplitude of the slow EPSP result from suppression of presynaptic calcium influx and, thus, decreased neurotransmitter and neuropeptide secretion. Along the same lines, in Figure 12, one possible interpretation of the observed smaller slow EPSPs seen in mice with mutant TRPC5 could be that at least some of the effect is due to decreased neurotransmitter and neuropeptide release due to the decreased excitability associated with TRPC5 knockdown.

      The reviewer raises a good point, but our previous findings clearly demonstrate that chelating intracellular calcium with BAPTA in whole-cell current clamp recordings abolishes the slow EPSP and persistent firing (Qiu, J. Neurosci 2021), which we have noted is the rationale for dissecting out the contribution of T, R, N, L and P/Q calcium channels to the slow EPSP in our current studies (revised Figure 3 will include the effects of T-channel blocker).

      However, to further bolster the argument for the post-synaptic contribution of the calcium channels to the slow EPSP and eliminate the potential presynaptic effects of calcium channel blockers on the postsynaptic slow EPSP amplitude, which may result from reduced presynaptic calcium influx and subsequently decreased neurotransmitter release, we will utilized an additional strategy. Specifically, we will measure the response to the externally administered TACR3 agonist senktide under conditions in which the extracellular calcium influx, as well as neurotransmitter and neuropeptide release, are blocked (new Figure 3).

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review): Weaknesses:

      However, the molecular mechanisms leading to NPC dysfunction and the cellular consequences of resulting compartmentalization defects are not as thoroughly explored. Results from complementary key experiments using western blot analysis are less impressive than microscopy data and do not show the same level of reduction. The antibodies recognizing multiple nucleoporins (RL1 and Mab414) could have been used to identify specific nucleoporins that are most affected, while the selection of Nup98 and Nup107 is not well explained.

      The results for the Western blots are less impressive than single nuclei imaging analysis because the protocol for isolating brain nuclei is heterogeneous and includes non-neuronal cells. For this reason, we selected specific nucleoporins for Western blot studies to complement the nonspecificity of pan-NPC antibodies for which the detection is based on the glycosylated moieties. We reasoned that a combination of pan-NPC and select NUPs will give the strongest complementary validation for the mutant phenotype. We have discussed the rationale of NUP selection in discussion. In brief, we selected NUP107 as it is a major component of the Yscaffold complex and is a long-lived subunit of the NPCs (Boehmer et al., 2003; D'Angelo et al., 2009). NUP98 is a mobile nucleoporin and is associated with the central pore, nuclear basket and cytoplasmic filaments. Both NUPs have been implicated in degenerative disorders. (Eftekharzadeh et al., 2018; Wu et al., 2001).

      There is also no clear hypothesis on how Aβ pathology may affect nucleoporin levels and NPC function. All functional NCT experiments are based on reporters or dyes, although one would expect widespread mislocalization of endogenous proteins, likely affecting many cellular pathways.

      We agree that the interaction between Aβ pathology and the NPC remains a work in progress. We decided to rigorously characterize Aβ-mediated deficits in App KI neurons – using different approaches and in more than one animal model – before moving on to explore mechanisms in subsequent studies, which we think deserves more extensive experiments. We seek your understanding and have included in the discussion, possible mechanisms for direct and indirect Aβ-mediated disruption of NPCs. We have also included an additional study to show the disruption in the localization of an endogenous nucleocytoplasmic protein – CRTC1 (cAMP Regulated Transcriptional Coactivator), which is CREB coactivator responsive to neural activity. We observed under basal and also in tetrodotoxin-silenced conditions, there is much higher CRTC1 in the nucleus in App KI neurons relative to WT. This reflects the compromised permeability barrier that we observed via FRAP studies. (Supplementary Figure S15).

      The second part of this manuscript reports that in App KI neurons, disruption in the permeability barrier and nucleocytoplasmic transport may enhance activation of key components of the necrosome complex that include receptor-interacting kinase 3 (RIPK3) and mixed lineage kinase domain1 like (MLKL) protein, resulting in an increase in TNFα-induced necroptosis. While this is of potential interest, it is not well integrated in the study. This potential disease pathway is not shown in the very simple schematic (Fig. 8) and is barely mentioned in the Discussion section, although it would deserve a more thorough examination.

      The study of necroptosis is meant to showcase a single cellular pathway that requires nucleocytoplasmic transport for activation that is compromised and is relevant for AD. We agree there is much more to explore in this pathway but feel is outside the scope of this study. We have included a new illustration that models how damage to NPCs and permeability barrier results in enhanced vulnerability of App KI neurons for necroptosis (Supplemental figure S12).

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      (1) Adding statistics and comparisons between wild-type changes at different times/ages to determine if the nuclear pore changes with time in wild-type neurons. The images show differences in the Nuclear pore in neurons from the wild-type mice, with time in culture and age. However, a rigorous statistical analysis is lacking to address the impact of age/development on NUP function. Although the authors state that nuclear pore transport is reported to be altered in normal brain aging, the authors either did not design their experiments to account for the normal aging mechanisms or overlooked the analysis of their data in this light.

      All our quantifications and statistical comparisons in neuron cocultures are time-matched between WT and App KI neurons, and thus independent of age and maturity of the neurons in culture. The accelerated loss of NUP expression is evident across all time groups. However, we cannot compare across age groups in cultured neurons as the time-matched WT and App KI samples for each time point were processed and imaged separately as neurons matured over time (Fig. 1B-C). An experiment must be done simultaneously across all age groups to compare agerelated effects for WT and App KI neurons in order to account for time-dependent changes. Given the unique challenges of studying “aging” in culture systems, we opted to be more conservative in our interpretation of the results and as such, we were careful to describe the accelerated nuclear pore deficits in App KI neurons relative to time-matched WT expression and speculate its relationship to normal brain aging only in the discussion section. We seek your understanding in this matter. That said, we are able to capture the decline of the NPC in histology of brain sections and observed a statistically significant drop in WT NUP levels in animal sections across age groups where we quantified and compared the raw nuclear intensities from brain sections that were processed and imaged simultaneously across independent experiments (Fig. 1D-E). We have included a statement in the results section to highlight that point.

      (2) Add experiments to assess the contribution of wild-type beta-amyloid accumulation with aging. It was described in 2012 (Guix FX, Wahle T, Vennekens K, Snellinx A, Chávez-Gutiérrez L, Ill-Raga G, Ramos-Fernandez E, Guardia-Laguarta C, Lleó A, Arimon M, Berezovska O, Muñoz FJ, Dotti CG, De Strooper B. 2012. Modification of γ-secretase by nitrosative stress links neuronal ageing to sporadic Alzheimer's disease. EMBO Mol Med 4:660-673, doi:10.1002/emmm.201200243) and 2021 (Burrinha T, Martinsson I, Gomes R, Terrasso AP, Gouras GK, Almeida CG. 2021. Upregulation of APP endocytosis by neuronal aging drives amyloid-dependent synapse loss. J Cell Sci 134. doi:10.1242/jcs.255752), 28 DIV neurons are senescent and accumulate beta-amyloid42. In addition, beta-amyloid 42 accumulates normally in the human brain (Baker-Nigh A, Vahedi S, Davis EG, Weintraub S, Bigio EH, Klein WL, Geula C. 2015. Neuronal amyloid-β accumulation within cholinergic basal forebrain in ageing and Alzheimer's disease. Brain 138:1722-1737. doi:10.1093/brain/awv024), thus, it would be important to determine if it contributes to NUP dysfunction. Unfortunately, the authors tested the Abeta contribution at div14 when wild-type Abeta accumulation was undetected. It would enrich the paper and allow the authors to conclude about normal aging if additional experiments were performed, namely, treating 28Div neurons with DAPT and assessing if NUP is restored.

      Your point is well-noted. We are intrigued at the potential contribution of WT Aβ to the decline in NUPs and NPC but decided to focus on mutant Aβ for this manuscript. We have observed negligible MOAB2-positive Aβ signals in WT neurons across all age groups (data not shown) but acknowledge the potential contributions of aging toward a reduction in NPC function. Instead, we have included a section in the discussion to highlight the aging-related expression of Aβ in WT neurons and a subset of the citations above to indicate a possible link with normal decay of NPCs.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Weaknesses:

      (1) It does not consider the relationship of the findings here to other published work on the intraneuronal perinuclear and nuclear accumulation of amyloid in other transgenic mouse models and in humans.

      We have updated the discussion to further elaborate on intraneuronal and perinuclear accumulation of amyloid and how that relates to our NPC phenotype.

      (2) It appears to presume that soluble, secreted Abeta is responsible for the effect rather than the insoluble amyloid fibrils.

      At present, our data cannot fully discount the role of fibrils or other forms of Aβ causing the NPC deficits, but our studies do show that external presence of Aβ (e.g. addition of synthetic oligomeric Aβ or App KI conditioned media) leads to intracellular accumulation and NPC dysfunction. We are aware that endogenous formation of fibrils could also contribute to the NPC dysfunction but refrained from drawing any conclusions without further studies. We have stated this in the discussion.

      (5) It is not clear when the alteration in NUP expression begins in the KI mice as there is no time at which there is no difference between NUP expression in KI and Wt and the earliest time shown is 2 months. If NUP expression is decreased from the earliest times at birth, then this makes the significance of the observation of the association with amyloid pathology less clear.

      The phenotype we observed early in neuronal cultures and in very young animals is subtle and in all our studies, the severity of the NUP phenotypes consistently correlates with elevated intracellular Aβ. We expect that by looking at earlier/younger neurons, the deficits will not be present. However, neurons before DIV7 are immature, and hence we chose not to include those in our observations. In animals, we observed Aβ expression in neuronal soma in young mice (2 mo.), but it is not clear when the deficits manifests and how early to look. While the NUP expression is reduced at an early stage, we speculate in discussion that cellular homeostatic mechanisms can compensate for any compromised nuclear functions and to maintain viability to the point where age-dependent degradation of cellular mechanisms will eventually lead to progression of AD.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      While the App KI model is suitable for modeling one key aspect of human AD, the use of the term "AD neurons" throughout the manuscript is misleading and should be avoided when describing experiments with "App KI neurons".

      Noted and corrected.

      The claim that Aβ pathology causes NPC dysfunction via reduced nucleoporin protein expression would be stronger if it was better supported by biochemical evidence based on western blots (WBs) to complement the strong microscopy data. The results shown in Figure 2H show a very weak effect compared to microscopy data that does not appear to match the quantification (e.g. Lamin-B1 staining appears reduced after 2 months in WB but not the graph). It is also not clear why nuclear fractionation is required. WB analyses with RL1 and MAB414 (that recognizes multiple FG-Nupsin ICCs and WBs) would help identify Nups that are most affected by Aβ pathology.

      The weaker Western blot results is due to the heterogeneity of the nuclei we isolated from the whole brain which includes non-neuronal cells. We reasoned that isolating the nuclear fraction would give us a cleaner Western blot with fewer background bands as the input lysate is more specific. We also decided to use antibodies against specific NUPs as a way to complement the pan-NPC antibodies that detect glycosylation-enriched epitopes in the nucleus. We reasoned that Western blot identification of individual subunits should provide complementary and stronger evidence for the reduction of NUPs at the peptide level. Overall, we used four different nuclear pore antibodies (RL1, Mab414, NUP98, NUP107) to demonstrate the same mutant phenotype in App KI neurons.

      While the observed NCT defects are discussed in detail, the authors do not present any potential mechanisms to be tested, how intracellular Aβ may impact NPCs. Does Aβ pathology affect nucleoporin expression or stability?

      We have observed the presence of Aβ adjacent to the nuclear membrane and also in the cytosol via high resolution confocal microscopy (Supplementary Figure S14). Our primary goal in this paper is to provide convincing evidence – using different assays and in more than one mouse model – for the reduction of NUPs and lower NPC counts. We feel mechanistic details of Aβdriven NPC disruption requires more extensive experimentation more suitable for subsequent publications.

      The very simple schematic just represents the loss of compartmentalization, without illustrating more complex concepts. It would also be improved by representing the outer and inner nuclear membrane fusing around the NPCs with a much wider perinuclear space between the membranes. As shown now, the nuclear envelope almost looks like a single membrane, while >60kDa proteins are shown at a similar size as the 125MDa NPC.

      We have updated the illustration along with a new schematic for necroptosis (Supplementary Figure S12). We have refrained from giving specific details of the damage to the nuclear pore complex because it is not yet clear the nature of these deficits.

      Misspelling of "Hoechst" as "Hochest" in several figures (Fig. 1, 2, S5, S7).

      Noted and corrected

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Additional data analysis is required concerning the wild-type controls. The figures show clear differences in the wild-type neurons with time in culture (referring to figures 1A, 1B, 1C; 2A, 2B, 2C, 2D,6E, 6F, 6G, s4) and in different ages (2E, 2F, 2G, 5B, 5C, 5D). The data analysis is shown for knockin vs the time-matched wild-type condition. The effect of time in wild-type neurons/mice should also be analyzed. All the data is suggested to be normalized to 7 DIV/2month wild-type neurons/mice. Were these experiments done with different time points of the same culture? This would be the best to conclude on the effect of time.

      We have noted a decline of NUPs in WT neurons over time in primary cultures and in animal sections. This is not surprising since the NPC and nuclear signaling pathways deteriorate with age (Liu and Hetzer, 2022; Mertens et al., 2015). However, we are unable to do a direct comparison across age groups in cultured neurons as the time-matched WT and App KI neuronal samples for each time point were processed and imaged separately as neurons matured over time (Fig. 1B-C). Hence, we perform statistical analysis for each time-matched WT and App KI neurons. To be clear, multiple independent experiments across different cultures were performed at each time point. Given the inherent challenges of studying aging in culture systems, we opted to be more conservative in our interpretation of the results and as such, we were careful to describe the accelerated nuclear pore deficits in App KI neurons relative to WT levels without inferring the effect of time and speculate its relationship to normal brain aging only in the discussion section. That said, we are able to capture the decline of the nuclear pore complex across different age groups in histology of brain sections where we observed a drop in WT NUP levels in animal sections when we quantified and compared the raw nuclear intensities from brain sections that were processed and imaged simultaneously across independent experiments (Fig. 1D-E).

      Similarly, in Figure 2H, why aren't 2 months compared with 14 months? Why were these ages chosen? 2 months is a young adult, and 14 months is a middle-aged adult. To conclude, aging should have included an age between 18 and 24 months old.

      As with cultures, we isolated age-matched WT and App KI animals separately. We chose 2 to 14 months as they represent young and middle-aged adults as we wanted to showcase the nuclear pore deficits induced by the presence of Aβ without drawing a conclusion on the effects of age or time. That said, we do show histology of brain sections at 18 months of age with individual NUPs. We agree that the temporal aspects of NPC loss in WT neurons is interesting, however, given our experimental parameters, we cannot draw conclusions across different age groups at the moment.

      In Figure 3, statistics between wild type should have been included.

      Similar to the above comment, samples were processed and imaged independently across different groups, hence we cannot compare the datapoints across time.

      (4) Additional quantification: The intensity of MOAB2 at 2 and 13 months should be measured as in Figure 3C.

      Intracellular Aβ signal in 2-mo. old App KI mice is diffuse throughout the soma but in older animals, they are punctate. This observation was similarly described by Lord et al. for tgAPPArcSwe mice (Lord et al., 2006). We have included a confocal micrograph of MOAB-2 immunocytochemistry of a 13-mo. App KI brain section in supplemental figures (Supplementary Figure S13). We found it challenging to differentiate whether the signal is localized intracellularly or as an extracellular aggregate. Regardless, the differences in the quality and uneven distribution of Aβ signal makes any direct comparison of soma intensity across the different age groups harder to interpret in the context of the mutant phenotype.

      (5) Additional experiments: Because primary neurons differentiate, mature, and age with time in culture, they are required to control for the developmental stage of your cultures. Analyzing neuronal markers such as doublecortin for neuronal precursors, MAP2 (or Tau) for dendritic/axonal maturation, synapsin for synaptic maturation, and accumulation of senescenceassociated beta-galactosidase (SA-Beta-Gal) as an aging marker.

      As part of the maintenance of cultures, we stain cultures for axodendritic markers (e.g. MAP2), glial cell distribution (e.g GFAP) and excitatory vs. inhibitory neuronal subpopulations (e.g. Gad65) and synaptic markers (e.g. PSD95) to ensure that growth, survival and viability of neurons are not compromised (data not shown). These markers for maturity are routinely tracked to ensure proper development. We also test the health of the cultures (e.g. apoptosis, necrosis) and to look for cytoskeletal disruption or fragmentation for neuronal processes.

      (6) Additional methods: The quantification of Abeta intensity in Figure 3 is not clearly explained in the methods. Was the intensity measured per field, per cell body?

      The quantifications for Aβ are done for each MAP2-positive cell body and have included that statement in the methods.

      (7) Missing in discussion integration and references to these papers:

      a. Mertens J, Paquola ACM, Ku M, Hatch E, Böhnke L, Ladjevardi S, McGrath S, Campbell B, Lee H, Herdy JR, Gonçalves JT, Toda T, Kim Y, Winkler J, Yao J, Hetzer MW, Gage FH. 2015. Directly Reprogrammed Human Neurons Retain Aging-Associated Transcriptomic Signatures and Reveal Age-Related Nucleocytoplasmic Defects. Cell Stem Cell 17:705-718. doi:10.1016/j.stem.2015.09.001

      b. Guix FX, Wahle T, Vennekens K, Snellinx A, Chávez-Gutiérrez L, Ill-Raga G, Ramos-Fernandez E, Guardia-Laguarta C, Lleó A, Arimon M, Berezovska O, Muñoz FJ, Dotti CG, De Strooper B. 2012. Modification of γ-secretase by nitrosative stress links neuronal ageing to sporadic Alzheimer's disease. EMBO Mol Med 4:660-673. doi:10.1002/emmm.201200243

      c. Burrinha T, Martinsson I, Gomes R, Terrasso AP, Gouras GK, Almeida CG. 2021. Upregulation of APP endocytosis by neuronal aging drives amyloid-dependent synapse loss. J Cell Sci 134. doi:10.1242/jcs.255752),

      Neuronal amyloid-β accumulation within cholinergic basal forebrain in ageing and Alzheimer's disease. Brain 138:1722-1737. doi:10.1093/brain/awv024).

      We have cited a subset of the papers in the discussion section and also expanded the discussion to include the possibility of time-dependent changes for Aβ expression in WT neurons.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Specific comments:

      (1) Fig. 1D,E. Fig. 2E, F. This shows the change in NUP IR with time for the APP-KI, but there is also a difference between Wt and KI from the earliest time shown. How early is this difference apparent? From birth? The study should go back to the earliest time possible as the timing of the staining for NUP is important to correlate this with other events of intraneuronal Abeta and amyloid IR. Is the difference between 4 and 7-month ko mice in Figures 2G and 2F statistically significant? If not, perhaps we need a larger N to determine the timing accurately.

      The point is well taken. We have not examined the WT and App KI brains before 2-mo. of age. At this early time point, the extracellular amyloid deposits are very low but intracellular Aβ can be readily detected in neuronal soma. We expect that as the animal ages, the Aβ inside cells will directly impact the NPC mutant phenotype, but it is unclear how early this phenotype manifests in animals and when we should look. To be clear, in less mature neurons (DIV7), the phenotype is very subtle and can only be observed via high resolution microscopy. The differences between 4-7 mo. old animals (Fig. 2F and G) in terms of severity of the reduction cannot be assessed as the age-matched animals for each time point were processed separately, but at each time point, we observed a significant reduction of NPC relative to WT. Nevertheless, in Figure 1E, we performed immunohistochemistry experiments with pan-NPC antibodies and quantified raw intensities to show a difference between 4/7-mo. with 13-mo. old animals.

      (2) Similarly, the increase in Abeta IR is only shown for cultured neurons and only a single time point of 2 months is shown for CA1 in KI brain. Since a major point is that the decrease in NUP IR is correlated with an increase in Abeta IR, a more convincing approach would be to stain for both simultaneously in KI brain, especially since Abeta IR is quite sensitive to conformational variation between APP, Abeta, and aggregated forms and whether they are treated with denaturants for "antigen retrieval". The entire brain hemisphere should be shown as the pathology is not limited to CA1. There are many different Abeta antibodies that are specific to the amyloid state so it should be possible to come up with a set of antibodies and conditions that work for both Abeta and NUP staining.

      The intracellular Aβ signal in 2-mo. old App KI mice is diffuse throughout the soma but in older animals, they are punctate. We have included a confocal micrograph of MOAB-2 immunocytochemistry of a 13-mo. App KI brain section (Supplementary Figure S13). We did not quantify Aβ as it was challenging to differentiate if the signal is intracellular Aβ or amyloid β plaques. Regardless, the differences in the quality and uneven distribution of Aβ signal makes any direct comparison of soma intensity across the different age groups much harder to interpret.

      (3) Figure 3A. The staining with MOAB 2 and 82E1 appears qualitatively different with 82E1 exhibiting larger perinuclear puncta. Both antibodies appear to stain puncta inside the nucleus consistent with previously published reports of intranuclear amyloid IR. If these are flattened images, then 3D Z stacks should be shown to clarify this. Figure 3H shows what appears to be Abeta immunofluorescence quantitation in DAPT-treated cells, but the actual images are apparently not shown. The details of this experiment aren't clear or what antibody is used, but this may not be Abeta as many APP fragments that are not Abeta also react with antibodies like MOAB2.

      Since 82E1 detects a larger epitope (aa1-16 as compared to 1-4 in MOAB-2), it is possible some forms of Aβ are differentially detected inside the cell. MOAB-2 is shown to detect the different forms of Aβ40 and 42, with a stronger selectivity for the latter. However, it is not known to react with APP or APP/CTFs (Youmans et al., 2012). DAPT-treated cells were processed and imaged as with other experiments in figure 3 using MOAB-2 antibodies to detect Aβ. We have included that information in the figure legends.

      The way we image the cell is to collect LSM800 confocal stacks and use IMARIS software to render the nucleus in a 3D object prior to quantifying the intensity or coverage. In this way, we are capturing and quantifying the entire volume of the nucleus and not just a single plane. The majority of signal for MOAB-2 positive Aβ are punctate signals in the cytosol with a subset adjacent to the nucleus (Supplementary Figure 14; Airyscan; single plane). We also detected MOAB-2 signals coming from within the nucleus. The nature of this interaction between Aβ and the nuclear membrane/perinuclear space/nucleoplasm remains unclear.

      (4) P20 L12. "We demonstrate an Aβ-driven loss of NUP expression in hippocampal neurons both in primary cocultures and in AD mouse models" It isn't clear that exogenous or extracellular Abeta drives this in living animals. All the data that demonstrate this is derived from cell culture and things may be very different (eg. Soluble Abeta concentration) in vivo. It is OK to speculate that the same thing happens in vivo, but to say it has been demonstrated in vivo is not correct.

      We have rewritten the opening statement in the paragraph to narrowly define our observations in the context of App KI. We understand the caveats of our studies in primary cultures, but we have done our due diligence to study the phenomenon in different assays, using at least four different nuclear pore antibodies, and in more than one mouse model to show the deficits. We mentioned Aβ-driven loss but did not conclude which Aβ peptide (e.g. 40 vs. 42) or form (e.g. fibrillar) that drives the deficits. However, we have shown some data that oligomers and not monomers as well as extracellular Aβ can accumulate in the soma and trigger NPC deficits. We also state in the discussion that other possible mechanisms of action, mainly via indirect interactions of Aβ with the cell, could result in the deficits.

      (5) P21, L21 "Inhibition of γ-secretase activity prevented cleavage of mutant APP and generation of Aβ, which led to the partial restoration of NUP levels". What the data actually shows is that treatment of the cells with DAPT led to partial restoration of NUP levels. Other studies have shown that DAPT is a gamma secretase inhibitor, so it is reasonable to suspect that the effect to gamma secretase activity, but the substrates and products are assumed rather than measured, so a little caution is a good idea here. For example, CTF alpha is also a substrate, producing P3, which is not considered abeta. The products Abeta and P3 also typically are secreted, where they can be further degraded. Abeta and P3 can also aggregate into amyloid, so whether the effect is really due to Abeta per se as a monomer or Abeta-containing aggregates isn't clear.

      The point is noted. DAPT inhibition of -secretase can impact more than one substate as the complex can cleave multiple substrates. However, we have measured Aβ intensity which increases with DAPT, and while a singular experiment is insufficient to show direct Aβ involvement, we have performed other experiments that show a correlation of Aβ levels inside the soma and the degree of NPC reduction. This includes the direct application of synthetic Aβ42 oligomers. We agree the data cannot fully exclude the involvement of other -secretase cleavage products, but we feel there is strong enough evidence that Aβ – in whatever form - is at least partially if not, the main driver that promote these deficits.

      (6) Discussion. The authors point to "intracellular Abeta" as a potential causative agent for decreased NUP expression and function and cite a number of papers reporting intracellular Abeta. (D'Andrea et al., 2001; Iulita et al., 2014; Kimura et al., 2003; LaFerla et al., 1997; Oddo et al., 2003b; Takahashi et al., 2004; Wirths et al., 2001). Most of these papers report immunoreactivity with Abeta antibodies and argue about whether this is really Abeta40 or 42 and not APP or APP-CTF immunoreactivity. What is missing from these papers and the discussion in this manuscript is that this is not just soluble Abeta, but Abeta amyloid of the same type that ends up in plaques because it has the same immunoreactivity with Abeta amyloid fibril-specific antibodies and even the classical anti-Abeta antibodies 6E10 and 4G8 after antigen retrieval as shown in papers by Pensalfini, et al., 2014 and Lee, et al., 2022 (1,2) who describe the evolution of neuritic plaques and their amyloid core beginning inside neurons. The term "dystrophic neurite" is a misnomer because the structures that resemble "neurites" morphologically are actually autophagic vesicles packed with Abeta and APP immunoreactive material which has the detergent insolubility properties of amyloid plaques. See (1,2). The apparent intranuclear IR of MOAB2 and 82E1 mentioned in comment 3 is relevant here. In Lee et al., the 3D serial section EM reconstruction of one of these neurons with perinuclear and nuclear amyloid shows abundant amyloid fibrils in the remnant of the nucleus. The nuclear envelope appears to break down as evidenced by the redistribution of NeuN immunoreactivity (Pensalfini et al.,) and other nuclear markers and the EM evidence (Lee et al.,). These papers are also improperly cited as evidence for a hypothetical intracellular source for soluble Abeta.

      We have devoted a section of the discussion to highlight some of these findings in the context of Pensalfini et al. 2014 and Lee et al. 2022. Lee et al. tested multiple animal strains to observe the Panthos structures but did not use the App KI mouse model. Since none of our experiments directly tested their observations (e.g. perinuclear fibrils or acidity of autophagic vesicles) in App KI, we decided to take a more conservative approach in our interpretations by framing the NPC deficits without specifying the nature of the intracellular Aβ. We note in discussion that it is entirely possible that App KI animals also show the same Panthos phenotypes and the perinuclear accumulation of Aβ which results in damaged NUPs. To do that, the Panthos phenotype must first be established in App KI mice.

      (7) The authors also cite the work of Ditaranto et al., 2001 and Ji et al., 2002 for Aβ-induced lysosomal leakage from these vesicular structures but overlook the original publications on Abeta-induced lysosomal leakage by Yang et al., (3) who further show that this is correlated with aggregation of Abeta42 upon internalization which also leads to the co-aggregation of APP and APP-CTFs in a detergent-insoluble form (4) and pulse-chase studies demonstrate that metabolically-labeled APP ultimately ends up as insoluble Abeta that have "ragged" N-termini (5). This work seems relevant to the results reported here as the perinuclear amyloid that the authors report here is likely to be the same insoluble, aggregated APP and APP-CTF-containing amyloid as that reported in references 1 and 2.

      We have included the literature references in the discussion, highlighting the possibility of lysosomal leakage contributing to the NPC damage.

      Minor points.

      (1) P2, L28 "permeability barrier facilities passive" should be 'facilitates'.

      (2) P7, L24 "homogenate and grounded for 5 additional strokes" One of the peculiarities of English is that the past tense of grind is ground. Grounded means something else.

      (3) P8, L9 "For synthetic Aβ experiments," Abeta what? 42? 40? It makes a difference and if it is Abeta42, you should be specific in the rest of the text where it is used.

      (4) P11, L14. "To determine if Aβ can trigger changes in nuclear structure and function" It seems a little early to start by presupposing that it is Abeta that triggers changes in nuclear structure and function. It sounds like you are starting out with a bias.

      (5) P11, L16,17 "While Aβ pathology is robustly detected in App KIs" At some point in the manuscript, either here or in the introduction, it would be useful to include a couple of sentences about what the pathology is in these mice along with the timing of the development of the pathology to compare with the results presented here. There are several types of amyloid deposits, "neuritic" plaques, diffuse plaques, and cerebrovascular amyloid. This is important because the early "neuritic" plaques are intraneuronal at least early on before the neuron dies. See (1,2).

      (6) P19, L10. "LMB is an inhibitor or CRM-1 mediated" should be of

      All minor points have been addressed in the manuscript and figures.

      References

      (1) Pensalfini, A., Albay, R., 3rd, Rasool, S., Wu, J. W., Hatami, A., Arai, H., Margol, L., Milton, S., Poon, W. W., Corrada, M. M., Kawas, C. H., and Glabe, C. G. (2014) Intracellular amyloid and the neuronal origin of Alzheimer neuritic plaques. Neurobiol Dis 71C, 53-61

      (2) Lee, J. H., Yang, D. S., Goulbourne, C. N., Im, E., Stavrides, P., Pensalfini, A., Chan, H., Bouchet-Marquis, C., Bleiwas, C., Berg, M. J., Huo, C., Peddy, J., Pawlik, M., Levy, E., Rao, M., Staufenbiel, M., and Nixon, R. A. (2022) Faulty autolysosome acidification in Alzheimer’s disease mouse models induces autophagic build-up of Abeta in neurons, yielding senile plaques. Nat Neurosci 25, 688-701

      (3) Yang, A. J., Chandswangbhuvana, D., Margol, L., and Glabe, C. G. (1998) Loss of endosomal/lysosmal membrane impermeability is an early event in amyloid Aß1-42 pathogenesis. J. Neurosci. Res. 52, 691-698

      (4) Yang, A. J., Knauer, M., Burdick, D. A., and Glabe, C. (1995) Intracellular A beta 1-42 aggregates stimulate the accumulation of stable, insoluble amyloidogenic fragments of the amyloid precursor protein in transfected cells. J Biol Chem 270, 14786-14792

      (5) Yang, A., Chandswangbhuvana, D., Shu, T., Henschen, A., and Glabe, C. G. (1999) Intracellular accumulation of insoluble, newly synthesized Aßn-42 in APP transfected cells that have been treated with Aß1-42. J. Biol. Chem. 274, 20650-20656

      References

      Boehmer, T., Enninga, J., Dales, S., Blobel, G., and Zhong, H. (2003). Depletion of a single nucleoporin, Nup107, prevents the assembly of a subset of nucleoporins into the nuclear pore complex. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 100, 981-985.

      D'Angelo, M.A., Raices, M., Panowski, S.H., and Hetzer, M.W. (2009). Age-dependent deterioration of nuclear pore complexes causes a loss of nuclear integrity in postmitotic cells. Cell 136, 284-295.

      Eftekharzadeh, B., Daigle, J.G., Kapinos, L.E., Coyne, A., Schiantarelli, J., Carlomagno, Y., Cook, C., Miller, S.J., Dujardin, S., Amaral, A.S., et al. (2018). Tau Protein Disrupts Nucleocytoplasmic Transport in Alzheimer's Disease. Neuron 99, 925-940 e927.

      Liu, J., and Hetzer, M.W. (2022). Nuclear pore complex maintenance and implications for agerelated diseases. Trends Cell Biol 32, 216-227.

      Lord, A., Kalimo, H., Eckman, C., Zhang, X.Q., Lannfelt, L., and Nilsson, L.N. (2006). The Arctic Alzheimer mutation facilitates early intraneuronal Abeta aggregation and senile plaque formation in transgenic mice. Neurobiol Aging 27, 67-77.

      Mertens, J., Paquola, A.C., Ku, M., Hatch, E., Bohnke, L., Ladjevardi, S., McGrath, S., Campbell, B., Lee, H., Herdy, J.R., et al. (2015). Directly Reprogrammed Human Neurons Retain Aging-Associated Transcriptomic Signatures and Reveal Age-Related Nucleocytoplasmic Defects. Cell stem cell 17, 705-718.

      Wu, X., Kasper, L.H., Mantcheva, R.T., Mantchev, G.T., Springett, M.J., and van Deursen, J.M. (2001). Disruption of the FG nucleoporin NUP98 causes selective changes in nuclear pore complex stoichiometry and function. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 98, 3191-3196.

      Youmans, K.L., Tai, L.M., Kanekiyo, T., Stine, W.B., Jr., Michon, S.C., Nwabuisi-Heath, E., Manelli, A.M., Fu, Y., Riordan, S., Eimer, W.A., et al. (2012). Intraneuronal Abeta detection in 5xFAD mice by a new Abeta-specific antibody. Molecular neurodegeneration 7, 8.

  4. Apr 2024
    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      We would like to express our gratitude to the reviewers for their suggestions and critiques as we continually strive to enhance the quality of the manuscript. We improved it, by incorporating the reviewers’ suggestions, changing the content and numbering of figures (Figs 1, 3S1 were edited; 4 figures were moved to supplemental materials), and adding several analyses suggested by the reviewers along with accompanying figures (1S2, 1S3) and tables (1 and 2). These analyses include investigating the link between freezing behavior and 44-kHz calls as well as their sound mean power and duration. Also, we have introduced detailed information regarding the experiments performed as well as expanded the description and discussion of the results section. Finally, we added the information about 44-kHz calls reported by another group – which was inspired by our findings.

      Below is the point-by-point response to the reviewers’ comments.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Olszyński and colleagues present data showing variability from canonical "aversive calls", typically described as long 22 kHz calls rodents emit in aversive situations. Similarly long but higher-frequency (44 kHz) calls are presented as a distinct call type, including analyses both of their acoustic properties and animals' responses to hearing playback of these calls. While this work adds an intriguing and important reminder, namely that animal behavior is often more variable and complex than perhaps we would like it to be, there is some caution warranted in the interpretation of these data. The authors also do not provide adequate justification for the use of solely male rodents. With several reported sex differences in rat vocal behaviors this means caution should be exercised when generalizing from these findings.

      We fully agree that our data should be interpreted with caution and we followed the Reviewer’s suggestions along these lines (see below). Also, we appreciate the suggestion to explore the prevalence of 44-kHz calls in female subjects, which would indeed represent an important and intriguing extension of our research. However, due to present financial constraints, we can only plan such experiments. To address the comment, we have added the sentence: “Here we are showing introductory evidence that 44-kHz vocalizations are a separate and behaviorally-relevant group of rat ultrasonic calls. These results require further confirmations and additional experiments, also in form of repetition, including research on female rat subjects.”

      It is important to note that the data presented in the current manuscript originates primarily from previously conducted experiments. These earlier experiments employed male subjects only; it was due to established evidence indicating that the female estrus cycle significantly influences ultrasonic vocalization (Matochik et al., 1992). Adhering to controls for the estrus cycle would require a greater number of female subjects than males, which would not only increase animal suffering but also escalate the demands of human labor and financial costs.

      Firstly, the authors argue that the shift to higher-frequency aversive calls is due to an increase in arousal (caused by the animals having received multiple aversive foot shocks towards the end of the protocols). However, it cannot be ruled out that this shift would be due to factors such as the passage of time and increase in fatigue of the animals as they make vocalizations (and other responses) for extended periods of time. In fact the gradual frequency increase reported for 22 kHz calls and the drop in 44 kHz calls the next day in testing is in line with this.

      Answer: We would like to point out that the “increased-arousal” hypothesis, declared in the manuscript, is only a hypothesis – as reflected by the wording used. However, we changed the beginning of the sentence in question from “It could be argued” to “We would like to propose a hypothesis” to emphasize the speculative aspect of the proposed explanation behind the increase of 44-kHz ultrasonic emissions.

      Also, we do agree that other factors could contribute to the increased emission of 44kHz calls. These factors could include: heightened fear, stress/anxiety, annoyance/anger, disgust/boredom, grief/sadness, despair/helplessness, and weariness/fatigue. We are listing these potential factors in the discussion. Also, we added: “It is not possible, at this stage, to determine which factors played a decisive role. Please note that the potential contribution of these factors is not mutually exclusive”. However, we propose a list of arguments supporting the idea that 44-kHz vocalizations communicate an increased negative emotional state. Among these arguments were the conclusions drawn from additional analyses – mostly inspired by the fatigue hypothesis proposed by the Reviewer #1. In particular, we investigated changes in the sound mean power and duration of 22-kHz and 44-kHz calls. Specifically, we showed that the mean power of 44-kHz vocalizations did not change, and was higher than that of 22-kHz vocalizations (Fig. 1S2EF).

      Finally, the Reviewer #1 listed “the gradual frequency increase reported for 22 kHz calls and the drop in 44 kHz calls the next day” as arguments for the fatigue hypothesis. We do not agree that the “increase” should be interpreted as a sign of fatigue [Producing and maintaining higher frequency calls require greater effort from the vocalizer, on which we elaborated in the manuscript], also we are not sure what “drop in 44 kHz calls” the Reviewer is referring to [We assume it refers to less 44-kHz calls during testing vs. training; we suppose that the levels of arousal are lower in the test due to shorter session time and lack of shocks, which additionally contributes to fear extinction].

      Secondly, regarding the analysis where calls were sorted using DBSCAN based on peak frequency and duration, it is not surprising that the calls cluster based on frequency and duration, i.e. the features that are used to define the 44 kHz calls in the first place. Thus presenting this clustering as evidence of them being truly distinct call types comes across as a circular argument.

      Answer: The DBSCAN sorting results were to convey that when changing the clustering ε value, the degree of cluster separation, the 44-kHz vocalizations remained distinct from the 22-kHz and various short-call clusters that merged. In other words: 44-kHz calls remained separate from long 22-kHz, short 22-kHz and 50-kHz vocalizations, which all consolidated into one common cluster. As a result, in this mathematical analysis, 44-kHz vocalizations remained distinct without applying human biases. Additionally, frequency and duration are the two most common features used to define all types of calls (Barker et al., 2010; Silkstone & Brudzynski, 2019a, 2019b; Willey & Spear, 2013). In summary, we did not expect the analysis to isolate out the 44-kHz calls, and we were surprised by this result.

      The sparsity of calls in the 30-40 kHz range (shown in the individual animal panels in Figure 2C) could in theory be explained by some bioacoustics properties of rat vocal cords, without necessarily the calls below and above that range being ethologically distinct.

      Answer: We respectfully disagree with the argument regarding sparsity. It is important to note that, during prolonged fear conditioning experiments, we observed an increased incidence of 44-kHz calls (Fig. 1E-G) of up to >19% (Fig. 1S2AB) of the total ultrasonic vocalizations during specific inter-trial intervals. Also, it is possible that in observed experimental circumstances almost every fifth call could be attributed to the vocal apparatus as an artifact of its functioning (assuming we are interpreting the Reviewer’s argument correctly). While we do not believe this to be the case, we acknowledge the importance of considering such a hypothesis.

      The behavioral response to call playback is intriguing, although again more in line with the hypothesis that these are not a distinct type of call but merely represent expected variation in vocalization parameters. Across the board animals respond rather similarly to hearing 22 kHz calls as they do to hearing 44 kHz calls, with occasional shifts of 44 kHz call responses to an intermediate between appetitive and aversive calls. This does raise interesting questions about how, ethologically, animals may interpret such variation and integrate this interpretation in their responses. However, the categorical approach employed here does not address these questions fully.

      Answer: We are unsure of the Reviewer’s critique in this paragraph and will attempt to address it to the best of our understanding. Our finding of up to >19% of long seemingly aversive, 44-kHz calls, at a frequency in the define appetitive ultrasonic range (usually >32 kHz) is unexpected rather than “expected”. We would agree that aversive call variation is expected, but not in the appetitive frequency range.

      Kindly note the findings by Saito et al. (2019), which claim that frequency band plays the main role in rat ultrasonic perception. It is possible that the higher peak frequency of 44kHz calls may be a strong factor in their perception by rats, which is, however, modified by the longer duration and the lack of modulation.

      Also, from our experience, it is quite challenging to demonstrate different behavioral responses of naïve rats to pre-recorded 22-kHz (aversive) vs. 50-kHz (appetitive) vocalizations. Therefore, to demonstrate a difference in response to two distinct, potentially aversive, calls, i.e., 22-kHz vs. 44-kHz calls, to be even more difficult (as to our knowledge, a comparable experiment between short vs. long 22-kHz ultrasonic vocalizations, has not been done before).

      Therefore, we do not take lightly the surprising and interesting finding that “animals respond rather similarly to hearing 22 kHz calls as they do to hearing 44 kHz calls, with occasional shifts of 44 kHz call responses to an intermediate between appetitive and aversive calls”. We would rather put this description in analogous words: “the rats responded similarly to hearing 44-kHz calls as they did to hearing aversive 22-kHz calls, especially regarding heartrate change, despite the 44-kHz calls occupying the frequency band of appetitive 50-kHz vocalizations” and “other responses to 44-kHz calls were intermediate, they fell between response levels to appetitive vs. aversive playback” – which we added to the Discussion.

      Finally, we acknowledge that our findings do not present a finite and complete picture of the discussed aspects of behavioral responses to the presented ultrasonic stimuli (44-kHz vocalizations). Therefore, we have incorporated the Reviewer’s suggestion in the discussion. The added sentence reads: “Overall, these initial results raise further questions about how, ethologically, animals may interpret the variation in hearing 22-kHz vs. 44-kHz calls and integrate this interpretation in their responses.”

      In sum, rather than describing the 44kHz long calls as a new call type, it may be more accurate to say that sometimes aversive calls can occur at frequencies above 22 kHz. Individual and situational variability in vocalization parameters seems to be expected, much more so than all members of a species strictly adhering to extremely non-variable behavioral outputs.

      Answer: The surprising fact that there are presumably aversive calls that are beyond the commonly applied thresholds, i.e. >32 kHz, while sharing some characteristics with 22-kHz calls, is the main finding of the current publication. Whether they be finally assigned as a new type, subtype, i.e. a separate category or become a supergroup of aversive calls with 22-kHz vocalizations is of secondary importance to be discussed with other researchers of the field of study.

      However, we would argue – by showing a comparison – that 22-kHz calls occur at durations of <300 ms and also >300 ms, and are, usually, referred to in literature as short and long 22-kHz vocalizations, respectively (not introduced with a description that “sometimes 22kHz calls can occur at durations below 300 ms”). These are then regarded and investigated as separate groups or classes usually referred to as two different “types” (e.g., Barker et al., 2010) or “subtypes” (e.g., Brudzynski, 2015). Analogously, 44-kHz vocalizations can also be regarded as a separate type or a subtype of 22-kHz calls. The problem with the latter is that 22-kHz vocalizations are traditionally and predominantly defined by 18–32 kHz frequency bandwidth (Araya et al., 2020; Barroso et al., 2019; Browning et al., 2011; Brudzynski et al., 1993; Hinchcliffe et al., 2022; Willey & Spear, 2013).

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Olszyński et al. claim that they identified a "new-type" ultrasonic vocalization around 44 kHz that occurs in response to prolonged fear conditioning (using foot-shocks of relatively high intensity, i.e. 1 mA) in rats. Typically, negative 22-kHz calls and positive 50-kHz calls are distinguished in rats, commonly by using a frequency threshold of 30 or 32 kHz. Olszyński et al. now observed so-called "44-kHz" calls in a substantial number of subjects exposed to 10 tone-shock pairings, yet call emission rate was low (according to Fig. 1G around 15%, according to the result text around 7.5%).

      Answer: We are thankful for praising the strengths. Please note Figure 1G referred to 10-trial Wistar rats during delay fear conditioning session in which 44-kHz constituted 14.1% of ultrasonic vocalizations. The 7.5% number in results refers to the total of vocalizations analyzed across all animal groups used in fear conditioning experiments. These values have been updated in the current version of the manuscript. Also, please note – 44-kHz calls constituted up to 19.4% of calls, on average, in one of the ITI during fear conditioning session. However, the prevalence of aversive calls and of 44-kHz vocalizations in particular varied. It varied between individual rats; we added the text: “for n = 3 rats, 44-kHz vocalizations accounted for >95% of all calls during at least one ITI (e.g., 140 of total 142, 222 of 231, and 263 of 265 tallied 44-kHz calls), and in n = 9 rats, 44-kHz vocalizations constituted >50% of calls in more than one ITI.” See also further for the description of the array of experiments analyzed and the prevalence/percentage of 44-kHz calls encountered (Tab. 1, Fig. 1S3).

      Weaknesses: I see a number of major weaknesses.

      While the descriptive approach applied is useful, the findings have only focused importance and scope, given the low prevalence of "44 kHz" calls and limited attempts made to systematically manipulate factors that lead to their emission. In fact, the data presented appear to be derived from reanalyses of previously conducted studies in most cases and the main claims are only partially supported. While reading the manuscript, I got the impression that the data presented here are linked to two or three previously published studies (Olszyński et al., 2020, 2021, 2023). This is important to emphasize for two reasons:

      (1) It is often difficult (if not impossible) to link the reported data to the different experiments conducted before (and the individual experimental conditions therein). While reanalyzing previously collected data can lead to important insight, it is important to describe in a clear and transparent manner what data were obtained in what experiment (and more specifically, in what exact experimental condition) to allow appropriate interpretation of the data. For example, it is said that in the "trace fear conditioning experiment" both single- and grouphoused rats were included, yet I was not able to tell what data were obtained in single- versus group-housed rats. This may sound like a side aspect, however, in my view this is not a side aspect given the fact that ultrasonic vocalizations are used for communication and communication is affected by the social housing conditions.

      Answer: Preparing the current manuscript, we indeed used data collected during fear conditioning experiments which were described previously (Olszyński et al., 2021; Olszyński et al., 2022). Please note, however, that vocalization behavior during the fear conditioning itself was not the main subject of these publications. Our previous publications (Olszyński et al., 2020; Olszyński et al., 2021; Olszyński et al., 2022) present primarily ultrasonic-vocalization data from playback-part of experiments whereas here we analyze recordings obtained during fear conditioning experiments, thus we are analyzing new parts, i.e., not yet analyzed, of previously published studies. Also, we have performed additional experiments.

      In the first version of the current manuscript, we did not attempt to demonstrate exactly which calls were recorded in which conditions as the focus was to demonstrate that 44-kHz calls were emitted in several different fear-conditioning experiments. Also, as the experiments were not performed simultaneously and are results from different experimental situations, we would prefer to not compare these results directly.

      However, in the current version of the manuscript, we have introduced an additional reference system, based on Tab. 1, to more clearly indicate which rats have been employed in each analysis, e.g. the group of “Wistar rats that undergone 10 trials of fear conditioning” are described as “Tab. 1/Exp. 1-3/#2,4,8,13; n = 46”, i.e., these are the rats listed in rows 2, 4, 8, and 13 of Tab. 1.

      We have also tried to unify the analyses, in terms of rats used, as much as possible. Finally, we have also introduced Fig. 1S3 to demonstrate the prevalence of 44-kHz calls in all experiments analyzed with the note that “the experiments were not performed in parallel”.

      Regarding the Reviewer’s concerns about analyzing single- and pair-housed rats together. We have examined ultrasonic vocalizations emitted and freezing behavior in these two groups.

      • Ultrasonic vocalizations; when comparing the number of vocalizations, their duration, peak frequency and latency to first occurrence, equally for all types of calls and divided into types (short 22-kHz, long 22-kHz, 44-kHz, 50-kHz), the only difference was observed in peak frequency in 50-kHz vocalizations (50.7 ± 2.8 kHz for paired vs. 61.8 ± 3.1 kHz for single rats; p = 0.0280, Mann-Whitney). Since 50-kHz calls are not the subject of the current publication, we did not investigate this difference further. Also, this difference was not observed during playback experiments (Olszyński et al., 2020, Tab. 1).

      • Freezing. There were no differences between single- and pair-housed groups in freezing behavior, both in the time before first shock presentation and during fear conditioning training (Mann-Whitney).

      In summary, since the two groups did not differ in relevant ultrasonic features and freezing, we decided to present the results obtained from these rats together. However, we agree with the Reviewer, and it is possible that social housing conditions may in fact affect the emission of 44-kHz vocalizations, which could be a subject of another project – involving, e.g., larger experimental groups observed under hypothesis-oriented and defined conditions.

      (2) In at least two of the previously published manuscripts (Olszyński et al., 2021, 2023), emission of ultrasonic vocalizations was analyzed (Figure S1 in Olszyński et al., 2021, and Fig. 1 in Olszyński et al., 2023). This includes detailed spectrographic analyses covering the frequency range between 20 and 100 kHz, i.e. including the frequency range, where the "newtype" ultrasonic vocalization, now named "44 kHz" call, occurs, as reflected in the examples provided in Fig. 1 of Olszyński et al. (2023). In the materials and methods there, it was said: "USV were assigned to one of three categories: 50-kHz (mean peak frequency, MPF >32 kHz), short 22-kHz (MPF of 18-32 kHz, <0.3 s duration), long 22-kHz (MPF of 18-32 kHz, >0.3 s duration)". Does that mean that the "44 kHz" calls were previously included in the count for 50-kHz calls? Or were 44 kHz calls (intentionally?) left out? What does that mean for the interpretation of the previously published data? What does that mean for the current data set? In my view, there is a lack of transparency here.

      Answer: As mentioned above, we indeed used data collected during fear conditioning experiments which were described previously (Olszyński et al., 2021; Olszyński et al., 2022). However, in these publications, ultrasonic vocalizations emitted during playback experiments were the main subject, while the ultrasonic calls emitted during fear conditioning (performed before the playback) were only analyzed in a preliminary way. As a result, the 44-kHz vocalizations analyzed in the current manuscript were not included in the previous analyses. In particular, in Olszyński et al. (2021), we counted the overall number of ultrasonic vocalizations before fear conditioning session to determine the basal ultrasonic emissions (Fig. S1). Then, our next article (Olszyński et al., 2022), we analyzed again the number of all ultrasonic vocalizations before fear conditioning (Fig. S1) and restricted the analysis of vocalizations during fear conditioning to 22-kHz calls (Tab. S1 and S2).

      Also, we re-reviewed all the data used in our previous playback publications. Overall, 44-kHz calls were extremely rare in playback parts of the experiments. There were no 44-kHz calls in the playback data used in Olszyński et al. (2022) and Olszyński et al. (2020). In Olszyński et al. (2021), one rat produced eight 44-kHz calls. These 44-kHz calls constituted 0.03% of all vocalizations analyzed in the experiment (8/24888) and were included in the total number of calls analyzed (but not in the 50-kHz group), they were not described in further detail in that publication.

      Moreover, whether the newly identified call type is indeed novel is questionable, as also mentioned by the authors in their discussion section. While they wrote in the introduction that "high-pitch (>32 kHz), long and monotonous ultrasonic vocalizations have not yet been described", they wrote in the discussion that "long (or not that long (Biały et al., 2019)), frequency-stable high-pitch vocalizations have been reported before (e.g. Sales, 1979; Shimoju et al., 2020), notably as caused by intense cholinergic stimulation (Brudzynski and Bihari, 1990) or higher shock-dose fear conditioning (Wöhr et al., 2005)" (and I wish to add that to my knowledge this list provided by the authors is incomplete). Therefore, I believe, the strong claims made in abstract ("we are the first to describe a new-type..."), introduction ("have not yet been described"), and results ("new calls") are not justified.

      Answer: We would argue that 44-kHz vocalizations were indeed reported but not described. As far as we are concerned, an in-depth analysis of the properties and experimental circumstance of emission of long, high-frequency calls has not yet been performed. These researchers have observed, at least to a degree, similar calls to the ones we observed – as we mentioned in the discussion section. However, since these reported 44-kHz vocalizations were not fully described, we can only guess that they may be similar to ours. We speculate that perhaps like us, these researchers unknowingly recorded 44-kHz calls in their experiments and may also be able to describe them more extensively when re-analyzing their data as we have done here.

      Possibly, it was difficult to find reports on vocalizations, similar to the 44-kHz calls that we observed, because of the canonical and accepted definitions of ultrasonic vocalization types. Biały et al. (2019) allocated them as a part of 22-kHz group, perhaps because their calls were often of a step variation having both low and high components. Shimoju et al. (2020) grouped them along with 50-kHz vocalizations because they appeared during stroking rats held vertically; this procedure was compared to tickling which usually elicits appetitive calls.

      The Reviewer #2 states there are other publications to complete the list. We are aware of other articles authored by the same team as Shimoju et al. (2020) with different first authors. However, they are reporting similar findings to the cited article. Otherwise, we would gladly cite a more complete list of publications showing atypical, long, monotonous highfrequency vocalizations, similar to those observed in our experiments. Therefore, we would argue that ultrasonic vocalizations which were long, flat, high in frequency, and repeatedly occurring in a defined behavioral situation, have not been reported before. However, concerning the strong claims of novelty of our finding, we toned them down where we found this was warranted.

      In general, the manuscript is not well written/ not well organized, the description of the methods is insufficient, and it is often difficult (if not impossible) to link the reported data to the experiments/ experimental conditions described in the materials and methods section.

      Answer: The description of the methods has been adjusted and expanded. We added the requested link to each particular experiment as a formula “Tab. 1/Exp. nos./# nos.” which shows, each time, which experiments and experimental groups were analyzed. The list of the experiments and groups is found in the Tab. 1.

      For example, I miss a clear presentation of basic information: 1) How many rats emitted "44 kHz" calls (in total, per experiment, and importantly, also per experimental condition, i.e. single- versus group-housed)?

      Answer: We now clearly show which experiments were performed and how many animals were tested in each condition (Tab. 1), while the prevalence of 44-kHz calls amongst experimental conditions and animal groups is shown in Fig. 1S3. Also, we included information regarding the number of animals and treatment of each group of rats when reporting results. For example, we are stating that:

      (1a) “53 of all 84 conditioned Wistar rats (Tab. 1/Exp. 1-3/#2,4,6-8,13, Figs 1B, 1E, 1S1BC) displayed” 44-kHz vocalizations – as a general assessment; these numbers are different from those in the first version of the Ms, when we are mentioning Wistar rats conditioned 6 or 10 times only.

      (1b) “From this group of rats (n = 46), n = 41 (89.1%) emitted long 22-kHz calls, and 32 of them (69.6%) emitted 44-kHz calls” – this time referring only to 10-times conditioned Wistar rats as the biggest group that could be analyzed together (Figs 1F, 1G, 1S2A).

      (1c) “for n = 3 rats, 44-kHz vocalizations accounted for >95% of all calls during at least one ITI (e.g., 140 of total 142, 222 of 231, and 263 of 265 tallied 44-kHz calls), and in n = 9 rats, 44kHz vocalizations constituted >50% of calls in more than one ITI.”

      (2) Out of the ones emitting "44 kHz" calls, what was the prevalence of "44 kHz" calls (relative to 22- and 50-kHz calls, e.g. shown as percentage)?

      Answer: The prevalence of 44-kHz vocalizations in all investigated experiments and groups is shown in Fig. 1S3CD. Also, more information regarding the percentage of 44-kHz calls was demonstrated in Fig. 1S2AB where we calculated the distribution of 44-kHz calls to 22-kHz calls in Wistar rats, in 10-trial fear conditioning, across the length of the session.

      Additionally, the values are listed in the sentence regarding all Wistar rats which underwent 10 trials of fear conditioning: “these vocalizations were less frequent following the first trial (1.2 ± 0.4% of all calls), and increased in subsequent trials, particularly after the 5th (8.8 ± 2.8%), through the 9th (19.4 ± 5.5%, the highest value), and the 10th (15.5 ± 4.9%) trials, where 44-kHz calls gradually replaced 22-kHz vocalizations in some rats (Fig. 1F, 1S2B, Video 1; comp Fig. 1D vs. 1E).”

      (3) How did this ratio differ between experiments and experimental conditions?

      Answer: The prevalence of 44-kHz vocalizations in all experimental conditions is shown in Fig. 1S3. However, the direct comparison of results obtained in different conditions was not the goal of the present work. Also, we would argue, that such direct comparisons of results of different experiments would not be allowed. These experiments were done with different groups of animals, at different times, with different timetables of experimental manipulations.

      However, we are comfortable to state that:

      • There were more 44-kHz vocalizations during fear conditioning training than testing in all fear-conditioned Wistar rats;

      • We observed more 44-kHz vocalizations in Wistar rats compared to SHR.

      (4) Was there a link to freezing? Freezing was apparently analyzed before (Olszyński et al., 2021, 2023) and it would be important to see whether there is a correlation between "44-kHz" calls and freezing. Moreover, it would be important to know what behavior the rats are displaying while such "44-kHz" calls are emitted? (Note: Even not all 22-kHz calls are synced to freezing.) All this could help to substantiate the currently highly speculative claims made in the discussion section ("frequency increases with an increase in arousal" and "it could be argued that our prolonged fear conditioning increased the arousal of the rats with no change in the valence of the aversive stimuli"). Such more detailed analyses are also important to rule out the possibility that the "new-type" ultrasonic vocalization, the so-called "44 kHz" call, is simply associated with movement/ thorax compression.

      Answer: We analyzed freezing behavior and its association with ultrasonic emissions. The emission of 44-kHz vocalizations was associated with freezing. The results are now described and presented in the manuscript, i.e., Tab. 2, its legend and the description in Results: “Freezing during the bins of 22-kHz calls only (p < 0.0001, for both groups) and during 44-kHz calls only bins (p = 0.0003) was higher than during the first 5 min baseline freezing levels of the session. Also, the freezing associated with emissions of 44-kHz calls only was higher than during bins with no ultrasonic vocalizations (p = 0.0353), and it was also 9.9 percentage points higher than during time bins with only long 22-kHz vocalizations, but the difference was not significant (p = 0.1907; all Wilcoxon)” and “To further investigate this potential difference, we measured freezing during the emission of randomly selected single 44-kHz and 22-kHz vocalizations. The minimal freezing behavior detection window was reduced to compensate for the higher resolution of the measurements (3, 5, 10, or 15 video frames were used). There was no difference in freezing during the emission of 44-kHz vs. 22-kHz vocalizations for ≥150ms-long calls (3 frames, p = 0.2054) and for ≥500-ms-long calls (5 frames, p = 0.2404; 10 frames, p = 0.4498; 15 frames, p = 0.7776; all Wilcoxon, Tab. 2B).”

      Please note, that the general observation that "frequency increases with an increase in arousal" is not our claim but a general rule derived from large body of observations and proposed by the others (Briefer et al., 2012); we changed the wording of this statement to: “frequency usually increases with an increase in arousal (Briefer et al., 2012)”.

      The figures currently included are purely descriptive in most cases - and many of them are just examples of individual rats (e.g. majority of Fig. 1, all of Fig. 2 to my understanding, with the exception of the time course, which in case of D is only a subset of rats ("only rats that emitted 44-kHz calls in at least seven ITI are plotted" - is there any rationale for this criterion?)), or, in fact, just representative spectrograms of calls (all of Fig. 3, with the exception of G, all of Fig. 4).

      Answer: Please note, the former figures 2, 4, 6, and 8 have been now moved to supplementary figures 1S1, 2S1, 3S1, and 4S1 – to better organize the presentation of data. Figures 1, 3, 5, 7 are now 1, 2, 3, 4 respectively. In regards to presenting data from individual rats, this was to show the general patterns of ultrasonic-calls distributions observed. Showing the full data set as seen in Fig. 5A (now Fig. 3A) would obscure the readability of the graph without using mathematical clustering techniques such as DBSCAN.

      Concerning the Reviewer’s #2 question regarding the criterion of “minimum seven ITI”, we selected the highest vocalizers by taking animals above the 75th percentile of the number of ITI with 44-kHz calls. However, in the current version of the manuscript, we decided to omit this part of the analysis and the accompanying part of the figure, since it did not provide any additional informative value (apart from employing questionable criterion).

      Moreover, the differences between Fig. 5 and Fig. 6 are not clear to me. It seems Fig. 5B is included three times - what is the benefit of including the same figure three times?

      Answer: We hope that designating Fig. 6 as supplementary to Fig. 5 (now Figs 3S1 and 3, respectively) will make interpreting them more streamlined. Fig. 6A (now Fig. 3S1A) is a more detailed look on information presented in Fig. 5B (now Fig. 3B) with spectrogram images of ultrasonic vocalizations from different areas of the plot. Also, Fig. 3B (former Fig. 5B) was removed from Fig. 3S1B (former Fig. 6B).

      A systematic comparison of experimental conditions is limited to Fig. 7 and Fig. 8, the figures depicting the playback results (which led to the conclusion that "the responses to 44-kHz aversive calls presented from the speaker were either similar to 22-kHz vocalizations or in between responses to 22-kHz and 50-kHz playbacks", although it remains unclear to me why differences were seen b e f o r e the experimental manipulation, i.e. the different playback types in Fig. 8B).

      Answer: There were indeed instances of such before-differences. Such differences were observed in our previous studies (Olszyński et al., 2020, Tabs S9-12; Olszyński et al., 2021, Tabs S7; Olszyński et al., 2022, Tabs S4, S9, S13, S17, S18) and were most likely due to analyzing multiple comparisons. However, we think that the carry-over effect, mentioned by the Reviewer #2 (see below), also played a role.

      Related to that, I miss a clear presentation of relevant methodological aspects: 1) Why were some rats single-housed but not the others?

      Answer: As stated before, data were collected from our previous experiments and the observation of 44-kHz vocalizations in fear conditioning was an emergent discovery as we decided to analyze ultrasonic recordings from fear conditioning procedures. Single-housed animals were part of our experiment comparing fear conditioning and social situation on the perception of ultrasonic playback as described in Olszyński et al. (2020). Aside from this experiment, all other rats were housed in pairs.

      (2) Is the experimental design of the playback study not confounded? It is said that "one group (n = 13) heard 50-kHz appetitive vocalization playback while the other (n = 16) 22-kHz and 44kHz aversive calls". How can one compare "44 kHz" calls to 22- and 50-kHz calls when "44 kHz" calls are presented together with 22-kHz calls but not 50-kHz calls? What about carry-over effects? Hearing one type of call most likely affects the response to the other type of call. It appears likely that rats are a bit more anxious after hearing aversive 22-kHz calls, for example. Therefore, it would not be very surprising to see that the response to "44 kHz" calls is more similar to 22-kHz calls than 50-kHz calls.

      Of note, in case of the other playback experiment it is just said that rats "received appetitive and aversive ultrasonic vocalization playback" but it remains unclear whether "44 kHz" calls are seen as appetitive or aversive. Later it says that "rats were presented with two 10-s-long playback sets of either 22-kHz or 44-kHz calls, followed by one 50-kHz modulated call 10-s set and another two playback sets of either 44-kHz or 22-kHz calls not previously heard" (and wonder what data set was included in the figures and how - pooled?). Again, I am worried about carry-over effects here. This does not seem to be an experimental design that allows to compare the response to the three main call types in an unbiased manner.

      Answer: We apologize for being confounding and brief in our original description of the playback experiments. We wanted to avoid confusion associated with including several additional playback signals (please note some are not related to the current comparisons and include different 50-kHz ultrasonic subtypes and two different subtypes of short 22-kHz calls). We lengthened the description of these playback experiments in the current version.

      In general, including more than one type of ultrasonic calls as playback has a risk of a carry-over effect as well as a habituation effect (the responses become weak). However, it greatly reduces the number of required animals. Finally, regarding the first experiment, we chose 3 playbacks to compare the rats’ reactions, as this was the most conservative choice we thought of.

      We would like to highlight that we wanted to compare specifically the rats’ responses to 22-kHz vs. 44-kHz playback (as well as the effects of playback of different subtypes 50-kHz calls, which is not the subject of the current work). Therefore, we would argue, that the design of both experiments is actually unbiased regarding this key comparison (responses to 22-kHz vs. 44-kHz playback). In both experiments, 22-kHz and 44-kHz playbacks were included in the same sequences of stimuli and counterbalanced regarding their order (i.e., taking into account possible carry-over effects), and presented to the same rats. We regarded the group of rats that heard 50-kHz recordings as a baseline/control, since we know from previous playback studies what reactions to expect from rats exposed to these vocalizations (and 22-kHz playback), while in the second experiment, we reduced the 50-kHz playback to one set in order to minimize possible habituation to multiple playbacks.

      We agree that the design of both experiments does not allow for full comparison of the effects of aversive playbacks to 50-kHz playback. Also, we agree that some carry-over effects could play a role. It was mentioned in the discussion: ”Please factor in potential carryover effects (resulting from hearing playbacks of the same valence in a row) in the differences between responses to 50-kHz vs. 22/44-kHz playbacks, especially, those observed before the signal (Fig. 4AB).” However, we would still argue that the observed lack of difference in heartrate response (Fig. 4A) and the differences regarding the number of 50-kHz calls emitted (e.g., Fig. 4S1F) are void of the constraints raised by the Reviewer #2.

      We acknowledge that our studies do not give a complete picture of 44-kHz ultrasonic perception in relation to other ultrasonic bands and, given the possibility, we would like to perform more in-depth and focused experiments to study this aspect of 44-kHz calls in the future.

      Finally, regarding the second experiment, the description of the rats now includes that they “received 22-kHz, 44-kHz, and 50-kHz ultrasonic vocalization playback”, while the description of the experiment itself includes: “Responses to the pairs of playback sets were averaged”.

      Of note, what exactly is meant by "control rats" in the context of fear conditioning is also not clear to me. One can think of many different controls in a fear conditioning experiment.

      More concrete information is needed.

      Answer: This information was included in our previous publications. However, it was now provided in the method section of the current version of the manuscript. In general, control rats were subjected to the same procedures but did not receive electric shocks.

      Literature included in the answers

      Araya, E. I., Baggio, D. F., Koren, L. O., Andreatini, R., Schwarting, R. K. W., Zamponi, G. W., & Chichorro, J. G. (2020). Acute orofacial pain leads to prolonged changes in behavioral and affective pain components. Pain, 161(12), 2830-2840. https://doi.org/10.1097/j.pain.0000000000001970

      Barker, D. J., Root, D. H., Ma, S., Jha, S., Megehee, L., Pawlak, A. P., & West, M. O. (2010). Dose-dependent differences in short ultrasonic vocalizations emitted by rats during cocaine self-administration. Psychopharmacology (Berl), 211(4), 435-442. https://doi.org/10.1007/s00213-010-1913-9

      Barroso, A. R., Araya, E. I., de Souza, C. P., Andreatini, R., & Chichorro, J. G. (2019). Characterization of rat ultrasonic vocalization in the orofacial formalin test: Influence of the social context. Eur Neuropsychopharmacol, 29(11), 1213-1226. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.euroneuro.2019.08.298

      Biały, M., Podobinska, M., Barski, J., Bogacki-Rychlik, W., & Sajdel-Sulkowska, E. M. (2019). Distinct classes of low frequency ultrasonic vocalizations in rats during sexual interactions relate to different emotional states. Acta Neurobiol Exp (Wars), 79(1), 1-12. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31038481

      Briefer, E. F., Padilla de la Torre, M., & McElligott, A. G. (2012). Mother goats do not forget their kids' calls. Proc Biol Sci, 279(1743), 3749-3755. https://doi.org/10.1098/rspb.2012.0986

      Browning, J. R., Browning, D. A., Maxwell, A. O., Dong, Y., Jansen, H. T., Panksepp, J., & Sorg, B. A. (2011). Positive affective vocalizations during cocaine and sucrose self administration: a model for spontaneous drug desire in rats. Neuropharmacology, 61(1-2), 268-275. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.neuropharm.2011.04.012

      Brudzynski, S. M. (2015). Pharmacology of Ultrasonic Vocalizations in adult Rats: Significance, Call Classification and Neural Substrate. Curr Neuropharmacol, 13(2), 180-192. https://doi.org/10.2174/1570159x13999150210141444

      Brudzynski, S. M., & Bihari, F. (1990). Ultrasonic vocalization in rats produced by cholinergic stimulation of the brain. Neurosci Lett, 109(1-2), 222-226. https://doi.org/10.1016/0304-3940(90)90567-s

      Brudzynski, S. M., Bihari, F., Ociepa, D., & Fu, X. W. (1993). Analysis of 22 kHz ultrasonic vocalization in laboratory rats: long and short calls. Physiol Behav, 54(2), 215-221. https://doi.org/10.1016/0031-9384(93)90102-l

      Hinchcliffe, J. K., Jackson, M. G., & Robinson, E. S. (2022). The use of ball pits and playpens in laboratory Lister Hooded male rats induces ultrasonic vocalisations indicating a more positive affective state and can reduce the welfare impacts of aversive procedures. Lab Anim, 56(4), 370-379. https://doi.org/10.1177/00236772211065920

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      Olszyński, K. H., Polowy, R., Wardak, A. D., Grymanowska, A. W., & Filipkowski, R. K. (2021). Increased Vocalization of Rats in Response to Ultrasonic Playback as a Sign of Hypervigilance Following Fear Conditioning. Brain Sci, 11(8). https://doi.org/10.3390/brainsci11080970

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      Recommendations For The Authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Additional considerations:

      The discussion of the "perfect fifth" and the proposition that this observation could be evidence of an evolutionary mechanism underlying it is rather far-fetched, especially for being presented in the Results section (with no supporting non-anecdotal evidence).

      Answer: We agree with the Reviewer #1. The text was modified, the word “evolutionary” was deleted. Instead, we expended on the possible reason for prevalence of the perfect fifth in the current version of the manuscript; we added that the prevalence of the perfect fifth: “could be explained by the observation that all physical objects capable of producing tonal sounds generate harmonic vibrations, the most prominent being the octave, perfect fifth, and major third (Christensen, 1993, discussed in Bowling and Purves, 2015).”

      It is not clear why Sprague-Dawleys were used as "receivers" in the playback experiment, when presumably the calls were recorded from Wistars and SHRs. While this does not critically impact the conclusions, within the species rats should be able to respond appropriately to calls made by rats of different genetic backgrounds, it adds an unnecessary source of variance.

      Answer: Sprague-Dawley rats were used to test another normotensive strain of rats. Regarding the Reviewer’s main point – we beg to differ as we think that it is worth testing playback stimuli in different strains. Diverging the stimuli between different rat strains would add unnecessary variance and it seemed logical to use the same recordings to test effects in different strains. Please note that finally, in spite of this additional variance, the results of both playback experiments are, in general, similar – which may point to a universal effect of 44-kHz playback across rat strains.

      It is pertinent to note that for the trace fear conditioning experiment, the rats had previously been exposed to a vocalization playback experiment. While such a pre-exposure is unlikely to be a very strong stressor, the possibility for it to influence the vocal behaviors of these rats in later experiments cannot be ruled out. It is also not clear what the control rats in this experiment experienced (home cage only?), nor what they were used for in analyses.

      Answer: In the current version of the manuscript, we have described in greater detail all the experiments performed and analyzed. We would like to emphasize that both delay and trace fear conditioning experiments with radiotelemetric transmitters were not performed specifically to elicit any particular response during fear conditioning, rather that our observation of 44-kHz vocalizations emerged as a result of re-examining the audio recordings. As a result, this work summarizes our observations of 44-kHz calls from several different experiments. It is relevant to note, that 44-kHz vocalizations were observed “in rats which were exposed to vocalization playback experiment”, in rats before the playback experiments as well as in naïve rats, without transmitters implemented, trained in fear conditioning (Tab. 1/Exp. 1-3).

      Our main message is that 44-kHz vocalizations were present in several experiments, with different conditions and subjects, while we are not attempting to compare in detail the results across the different experiments. In other words, we agree that pre-exposure to playback (and even more likely – transmitters implantation) could influence, but are not necessary, for 44-kHz ultrasonic emissions by the rats. To demonstrate this, we added a prolonged fear conditioning group with naïve Wistar rats (Exp. 3) to verify the emission of 44kHz calls in the absence of those experimental factors.

      We modified the methods section to clarify the circumstances under which these discoveries were made, such as including the information regarding the control rats in trace fear conditioning. In particular we mention that: “Control rats were subjected to the exact same procedures but did not receive the electric shock at the end of trace periods”.

      For Figure 1A-E, only example call distributions from individual rats are shown. It would perhaps be more informative to see the full data set displayed in this manner, with color/shape codes distinguishing individuals if desired.

      Answer: Please note the Fig. 1S1 shows more examples of ultrasonic call distribution. Showing all the data would make it more difficult to read and interpret. The problem is partly amended in Fig. 3A.

      It is not clear what is presented in Figure 2D vs. E, i.e. panel D is shown only for "selected rats" but the legend does not clarify how and why these rats were selected. It is also not clear why the legend reports p-values for both Friedman and Wilcoxon tests; the latter is appropriate for paired data which seems to be the case when the question is whether the call peak frequency alters across time, but the Friedman assumes non-paired input data.

      Answer: The question refers to the current Fig. 1S2C panel (former Fig. 2E panel) and the former Fig. 2D panel. The latter was not included in the current version of the manuscript, since both reviewers opposed the presentation of “selected rats” only (see above). The full description of the Fig. 1S2C panel is now in the results section together with p-values for Friedman and Wilcoxon test. We used the latter to investigate the difference between the first and the last ITI (selected paired data), while the Friedman to investigate the presence of change within the chain of ten ITI – since it is a suitable test for a difference between two or more paired samples.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The weaknesses listed in the public review need to be addressed.

      Answer: We have done our best to address the weaknesses.

      Notes: 1) Page and line numbers would have been useful.

      Answer: We are including a separate manuscript version with page and line numbers.

      .(2) English language needs to be improved.

      Answer: The text has been checked by two native English speakers (one with a scientific background). Both only identified minor changes to improve the text which we applied.

      (3) I am a bit unsure whether the comment about the Star Wars movie (1997) and the Game of Thrones series (2011) is supposed to be a joke.

      Answer: These are indeed two genuine examples of the perfect fifth in human music that we hope are easily recognizable and familiar to readers. Parts of the same examples of the perfect fifth can also heard in the rat voice files provided.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      During the last decades, extensive studies (mostly neglected by the authors), using in vitro and in vivo models, have elucidated the five-step mechanism of intoxication of botulinum neurotoxins (BoNTs). The binding domain (H chain) of all serotypes of BoNTs binds polysialogangliosides and the luminal domain of a synaptic vesicle protein (which varies among serotypes). When bound to the synaptic membrane of neurons, BoNTs are rapidly internalized by synaptic vesicles (SVs) via endocytosis. Subsequently, the catalytic domain (L chain) translocates, a process triggered by the acidification of these organelles. Following translocation, the disulfide bridge connecting the H chain with the L chain is reduced by the thioredoxin reductase/thioredoxin system, and it is refolded by the chaperone Hsp90 on SV's surface. Once released into the cytosol, the L chains of different serotypes cleave distinct peptide bonds of specific SNARE proteins, thereby disrupting neurotransmission. In this study, Yeo et al. extensively revise the neuronal intoxication model, suggesting that BoNT/A follows a more complex intracellular route than previously thought. The authors propose that upon internalization, BoNT/A-containing endosomes are retro-axonally trafficked to the soma. At the level of the neuronal soma, this serotype then traffics to the endoplasmic reticulum (ER) via the Golgi apparatus. The ER SEC61 translocon complex facilitates the translocation of BoNT/A's LC from the ER lumen into the cytosol, where the thioredoxin reductase/thioredoxin system and HSP complexes release and refold the catalytic L chain. Subsequently, the L chain diffuses and cleaves SNAP25 first in the soma before reaching neurites and synapses. Strengths:

      I appreciate the authors' efforts to confirm that the newly established methods somehow recapitulate aspects of the BoNTs mechanism of action, such as toxin binding and uptake occurring at the level of active synapses. Furthermore, even though I consider the SNAPR approach inadequate, the genome-wide RNAi screen has been well executed and thoroughly analyzed. It includes well-established positive and negative controls, making it a comprehensive resource not only for scientists working in the field of botulinum neurotoxins but also for cell biologists studying endocytosis more broadly. Weaknesses:

      I have several concerns about the authors' main conclusions, primarily due to the lack of essential controls and validation for the newly developed methods used to assess toxin cleavage and trafficking into neurons. Furthermore, there is a significant discrepancy between the proposed intoxication model and existing studies conducted in more physiological settings. In my opinion, the authors have omitted over 20 years of work done in several labs worldwide (Montecucco, Montal, Schiavo, Rummel, Binz, etc.). I want to emphasize that I support changes in biological dogma only when these changes are supported by compelling experimental evidence, which I could not find in the present manuscript.

      We thank the reviewer for his reading and comments and for pointing out the discrepancy between our proposed model and the existing model. However, we respectfully disagree with the phrase of “extensive studies have elucidated the five-steps mechanism of intoxication…”. This sentence and the following imply that the model is well-established and demonstrated. It also highlights how the reviewer is convinced about this previous model.

      We contest this model for theoretical reasons and contest the strength of evidences that support it. We previously included references to previous work showing that the model is also being challenged by others. In light of the reviewer’s comments, we incluced more references in the introduction and we also explicit our main theoretical concern in the introduction:

      “Arguably, the main problem of the model is its failure to propose a thermodynamically consistent explanation for the directional translocation of a polypeptidic chain across a biologial membrane. Other known instances of polypeptide membrane translocation such as the co-translational translocation into the ER indicate that it is an unfavorable process, which consumes significant energy (Alder and Theg 2003). ”

      We also added the following text in the Discussion to address with the reviewer’s concerns: “Our study contradicts the long-established model of BoNT intoxication, which is described in several reviews specifically dedicated to the subject 1–4. In short, these reviews support the notion that BoNT are molecular machines able to mediate their own translocation across membranes; this notion has convinced some cell biologists interested in toxins and retrograde traffic, who describe BoNT mode of translocation in their reviews 5,6.

      But is this notion well supported by data? A careful examination of the primary literature reveals that early studies indeed report that BonTs form ion channels at low pH values 7,8. These studies have been extended by the use of patch-clamp 9,10. These works and others lead to various suppositions on how the toxin forms a channel and translocate the LC 1,11 .

      However, only a single study claims to reconstitute in vitro the translocation of BonT LC across membranes 12. In this paper, the authors report using a system of artificial membranes separating two aqueous compartments. They load the toxin in the cis compartment and measure the protease activity in the trans compartment after incubation. However, when the experimental conditions described are actually converted in terms of molarity, it appears that the cis compartment was loaded at 10e-8M BonT and that the reported translocated protease activity is equivalent to 10e-17 M (Figure 3D, 12). Thus, in this experiment, about 1 LC molecule in 100 millions has crossed the membrane. Such extremely low transfert rate does not tally with the extreme efficiency of intoxication in vivo, even while taking into account the difference between artificial and biological membranes.

      In sum, a careful analysis of the primary literature indicate that while there is ample evidence that BoNTs have the ability to affect membranes and possibly create ion channels, there is actually no credible evidence that these channels mediate translocation of the LC. As mentioned earlier, it is not clear how such a self-translocation mechanism would function thermodynamically. By contrast, our model proposes a mechanism without a thermodynamic problem, is consistent with current knowledge about other protein toxins, such as PE, Shiga and Ricin, and can help explain previously puzzling features of BonT effects. It is worth noting that a similar self-translocation model was proposed for other protein toxins such as Pseudomonas exotoxin, which have similar molecular organisation as BonT (68). However, it has since been demonstrated that the PE toxins require cellular machinery, in particular in the ER, for intoxication (21,69,70).”

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The study by Yeo and co-authors addresses a long-lasting issue about botulinum neurotoxin (BoNT) intoxication. The current view is that the toxin binds to its receptors at the axon terminus by its HCc domain and is internalized in recycled neuromediator vesicles just after the release of the neuromediators. Then, the HCn domain assists the translocation of the catalytic light chain (LC) of the toxin through the membrane of these endocytic vesicles into the cytosol of the axon terminus. There, the LC cleaves its SNARE substrate and blocks neurosecretion. However, other views involving kinetic aspects of intoxication suggest that the toxin follows the retrograde axonal transport up to the nerve cell body and then back to the nerve terminus before cleaving its substrate.

      In the current study, the authors claim that the BoNT/A (isotype A of BoNT) not only progresses to the cell body but once there, follows the retrograde transport trafficking pathway in a retromer-dependent fashion, through the Golgi apparatus, until reaching the endoplasmic reticulum. Next, the LC dissociates from the HC (a process not studied here) and uses the translocon Sec61 machinery to retro-translocate into the cytosol. Only then, does the LC traffic back to the nerve terminus following the anterograde axonal transport. Once there, LC cleaves its SNARE substrate (SNAP25 in the case of BoTN/A) and blocks neurosecretion.

      To reach their conclusion, Yeo and co-authors use a combination of engineered tools: a cell line able to differentiate into neurons (ReNcell VN), a reporter dual fluorescent protein derived from SNAP25, the substrate of BoNT/A (called SNAPR), the use of either native BoNT/A or a toxin to which three fragment 11 of the reporter fluorescent protein Neon Green (mNG) are fused to the N-terminus of the LC (BoNT/A-mNG11x3), and finally ReNcell VN transfected with mNG1-10 (a protein consisting of the first 10 beta strands of the mNG).

      SNAPR is stably expressed all over in the ReNcell VN. SNAPR is yellow (red and green) when intact and becomes red only when cleaved by BoNT/A LC, the green tip being degraded by the cell. When the LC of BoNT/A-mNG11x3 reaches the cytosol in ReNcell VN transfected by mNG1-10, the complete mNG is reconstituted and emits a green fluorescence.

      In the first experiment, the authors show that the catalytic activity of the LC appears first in the cell body of neurons where SNAPR is cleaved first. This phenomenon starts 24 hours after intoxication and progresses along the axon towards the nerve terminus during an additional 24 hours. In a second experiment, the authors intoxicate the ReNcell VN transfected by mNG1-10 using the BoNT/A-mNG11x3. The fluorescence appears also first in the soma of neurons, then diffuses in the neurites in 48 hours. The conclusion of these two experiments is that translocation occurs first in the cell body and that the LC diffuses in the cytosol of the axon in an anterograde fashion.

      In the second part of the study, the authors perform a siRNA screen to identify regulators of BoNT/A intoxication. Their aim is to identify genes involved in intracellular trafficking of the toxin and translocation of the LC. Interestingly, they found positive and negative regulators of intoxication. Regulators could be regrouped according to the sequential events of intoxication.

      Genes affecting binding to the cell-surface receptor (SV2) and internalization. Genes involved in intracellular trafficking. Genes involved in translocation such as reduction of the disulfide bond linking the LC to the HC and refolding in the cytosol. Genes involved in signaling such as tyrosine kinases and phosphatases. All these groups of genes may be consistent with the current view of BoNT intoxication within the nerve terminus. However, two sets of genes were particularly significant to reach the main conclusion of the work and definitely constitute an original finding important to the field. One set of genes consists of those of the retromer, and the other relates to the Sec61 translocon. This should indicate that once endocytosed, the BoNT traffics from the endosomes to the Golgi apparatus, and then to the ER. Ultimately, the LC should translocate from the ER lumen to the cytosol using the Sec61 translocon. The authors further control that the SV2 receptor for the BoNT/A traffics along the axon in a retromer-dependent fashion and that BoNT/A-mNG11x3 traverses the Golgi apparatus by fusing the mNG1-10 to a Golgi resident protein.

      Strengths:

      The findings in this work are convincing. The experiments are carefully done and are properly controlled. In the first part of the study, both the activity of the LC is monitored together with the physical presence of the toxin. In the second part of the work, the most relevant genes that came out of the siRNA screen are checked individually in the ReNcell VN / BoNT/A reporter system to confirm their role in BoNT/A trafficking and retro-translocation.

      These findings are important to the fields of toxinology and medical treatment of neuromuscular diseases by BoNTs. They may explain some aspects of intoxication such as slow symptom onset, aggravation, and appearance of central effects.

      Weaknesses:

      The findings antagonize the current view of the intoxication pathway that is sustained by a vast amount of observations. The findings are certainly valid, but their generalization as the sole mechanism of BoNT intoxication should be tempered. These observations are restricted to one particular neuronal model and engineered protein tools. Other models such as isolated nerve/muscle preparations display nerve terminus paralysis within minutes rather than days. Also, the tetanus neurotoxin (TeNT), whose mechanism of action involving axonal transport to the posterior ganglia in the spinal cord is well described, takes between 5 and 15 days. It is thus possible that different intoxication mechanisms co-exist for BoNTs or even vary depending on the type of neurons.

      Although the siRNA experiments are convincing, it would be nice to reach the same observations with drugs affecting the endocytic to Golgi to ER transport (such as Retro-2, golgicide or brefeldin A) and the Sec61 retrotranslocation (such as mycolactone). Then, it would be nice to check other neuronal systems for the same observations.

      We thank the reviewer for the careful reading and comments of our manuscript. The reference to “a vast amount of observation” is a similar argument to the Reviewer 1 and used to suggest that our study may not be applicable as a general mechanism.

      We respectfully disagree as described above and posit on the contrary that the model we propose is much more likely to be general than the model presented in current reviews for the several reasons cited (see added text in Introduction and Discussion). While we agree that more work is needed to confirm the proposed mechanisms of BonT translocation in other models, these experiments fall outside the perimeter of our study.

      The fact that nerve/muscle preparations of BonT activity have relatively fast kinetics does not pose a contradiction to our model. Our model reveals primarily the requirement for trafficking to the ER membranes. This ER targeting requires trafficking through the Golgi complex, in turn explaining the requirement for trafficking to the soma of neurons in the experimental system we used. However, in neuronal cells in vivo, Golgi bodies can be found along the lenght of the axon, thus BonT may not always require trafficking to the soma of the affected cells. The time required for intoxication could thus vary greatly depending on the neuronal structural organisation.

      TenT is proposed to transfer from excitatory neurons into inhibitory neurons before exerting its action. While the detailed mechanism of this fascinating mechanism remain to be explored, it clearly falls beyond the purview of this manuscript.

      Regarding the use of drugs, we agree that it would be a nice addition; unfortunately we are unable to perform such experiments at this stage. Setting up a large scale siRNA screen for BonT mechanism of action is challenging as it requires a special facility with controlled access and police authorisation (in Singapore) given the high toxicity of this molecule. Unfortunately, the authorisations have now lapsed.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review): Summary:

      The manuscript by Yao et al. investigates the intracellular trafficking of Botulinum neurotoxin A (BoNT/A), a potent toxin used in clinical and cosmetic applications. Contrary to the prevailing understanding of BoNT/A translocation into the cytosol, the study suggests a retrograde migration from the synapse to the soma-localized Golgi in neurons. Using a genome-wide siRNA screen in genetically engineered neurons, the researchers identified over three hundred genes involved in this process. The study employs organelle-specific split-mNG complementation, revealing that BoNT/A traffics through the Golgi in a retromer-dependent manner before moving to the endoplasmic reticulum (ER). The Sec61 complex is implicated in the retro-translocation of BoNT/A from the ER to the cytosol. Overall, the research challenges the conventional model of BoNT/A translocation, uncovering a complex route from synapse to cytosol for efficient intoxication. The findings are based on a comprehensive approach, including the introduction of a fluorescent reporter for BoNT/A catalytic activity and genetic manipulations in neuronal cell lines. The conclusions highlight the importance of retrograde trafficking and the involvement of specific genes and cellular processes in BoNT/A intoxication.

      Strengths:

      The major part of the experiments are convincing. They are well-controlled and the interpretation of their results is balanced and sensitive.

      Weaknesses:

      To my opinion, the main weakness of the paper is in the interpretation of the data equating loss of tGFP signal (when using the Red SNAPR assay) with proteolytic cleavage by the toxin. Indeed, the first step for loss of tGFP signal by degradation of the cleaved part is the actual cleavage. However, this needs to be degraded (by the proteasome, I presume), a process that could in principle be affected (in speed or extent) by the toxin.

      We thank the reviewer for his comments and careful reading of our manuscript.

      Regarding the read-out of the assay, we agree that the assay could be sensitive to alteration in the protein degradation pathway. We have added the following sentence in the Discussion to take it into account:

      “As noted by one reviewer, the assay may be sensitive to perturbation in the general rate of protein degradation, a consideration to keep in mind when evaluating the results of large scale screens.”

      While this may be valid for some hits in the general list, it is important to note that the main hits have been shown to affect toxin trafficking by an independent, orthogonal assay based on the split GFP reconstitution.

      Recommendations to authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) To assess the activity of BoNT/A in neurons, Yeo et al. have generated a neuronal stem line referred to as SNAPR. This cell line stably expresses a chimeric reporter protein that consists of SNAP25 flanked at its N-terminus with a tagRFPT and at its C-terminus with a tagGFP. After exposure to BoNT/A, SNAP25 is cleaved and, the C-terminal tGFP-containing moiety is rapidly degraded. I have many doubts about the validity of the described method. Indeed, BoNT/A activity is analysed in an indirect way by quantifying the degradation of the GFP moiety generated after toxin cleavage (Fig. 2). In this regard, the authors should consider that their approach is dependent, not only on the toxin's metalloprotease activity but also on the functionality of the proteasome in neurons. Therefore, considering the current dataset, it is impossible to rule out the possibility that the progression of GFP signal loss from the soma to the neurite terminals may be attributed to the different proteasome activity in these compartments. Is it conceivable that the GFP fragment generated upon toxin cleavage degrades more rapidly in the soma in comparison to axonal terminals? This alternative explanation could challenge the conclusion drawn in Fig. 2.

      The reviewer’s alternative explanation disregards the experiments performed with the split-GFP complementation approach, which indicate translocation in the soma first. The split GFP reporter is not dependent on the proteasome activity. It also disregard the genetic data implicating many genes involved in membrane retrograde traffic, which are also not consistent with the hypothesis of the reviewer. These genes depletions not only affect SNAPR degradation but also BoNT/A-mNG11 trafficking: thus, their effect cannot be attributed to an completely hypothetical spatial heterogeneous distribution of the proteasome.

      For this reason, I strongly suggest using a more physiological approach that does not depend on proteasomal degradation or on the expression of the sensor in neurons. The authors should consider performing a time course experiment following intoxication and staining BoNT/A-cleaved SNAP25 by using specific antibodies (see Antonucci F. et al., Journal of Neuroscience, 2008 or Rheaume C. et al., Toxins 2015).

      For the above reason, we do not agree with the pressing importance of confirming by a third method using specific antibodies; especially considering that BonT is very difficult to detect in cells when incubated at physiological levels. By the way, the cited paper, by Antonucci F; et al. documents long distance retrograde traffic of BonT/A, which is in line with our data.

      An alternative approach could involve the use of microfluidic devices that physically separate axons from cell bodies. Such a separation will allow us to test the authors' primary conclusion that SNAP25 is initially cleaved in the soma. The suggested experiments will also rule out potential overexpression artifacts that could influence the authors' conclusions when using the newly developed SNAPR approach. Without these additional experiments, the authors' main conclusion that SNAP25 is cleaved first in the neuronal soma rather than at the nerve terminal is inadequate.

      As discussed above we disagree about the doubts raised by the reviewer: we present three types of evidences (SNAPR, split GFP and genetic hits) and they all point in the same direction. Thus, we respectfully doubt that a fourth approach would convince this reviewer. To note, we have attempted to use microfluidics devices as suggested by the reviewer, however, the Ren-VM neurons were not able to extend axons long enough across the device.

      (2) To detect BoNT/A translocation into the cytosol, the authors have used a complementation assay by intoxicating ReNcell VM cell expressing a cytosolic HA-tagged split monomeric NeonGreen (Cyt-mNG1-10) with an engineered BoNT/A, where the catalytic domain (LC) was fused to mNG1-11. When drawing conclusions regarding the detection of cytosolic LC in the neuronal soma, the authors should highlight the limitations of this assay and explicitly describe them to the readers. Firstly, the authors need to investigate whether the addition of mNG1-11 to the LC affects the translocation process itself (by comparing with a WT, not tagged, LC).

      Additionally, from the data shown in Fig. 2C, it is evident that the Cyt-mNG1-10 is predominantly expressed in the cytosol and less detected in neurites. This raises the question of whether there might be a bias for the cell soma in this assay. To address this important concern, I suggest quantifying MFI per cell (Fig. 2D) taking into consideration the amount of HA-tagged Cyt-mNG1-10. Furthermore, I strongly suggest targeting mNG1-10 to synapses and performing a similar time course experiment to observe when LC translocation occurs at nerve terminals. Alternative experiments, to prove that BoNT/A requires retrograde trafficking before it can translocate, may be done to repeat the experiments shown in Fig. 2D in the presence of inhibitors (or by KD some of the hits identified as microtubule stabilizers) that should interfere with BoNT/A trafficking to the neuronal somata. Without these additional experiments, the authors' main conclusion that the BoNT/A catalytic domain is first detected in the neuronal soma rather than at the nerve terminal is very preliminary.

      Similarly as for the SNAPR assay, the reviewer is raising the level of doubt to very high levels. We respect his thoroughness and eagerness to question the new model. However, we note that a similar level of scrutiny does not apply to the prevalent competitive model. Indeed, the data supporting the self-translocation model is based on a single in vitro experiment published in one panel as we have explain din the discussion (see above).

      (3) In the genome-wide RNAi screening, rather than solely assessing SV2 surface levels, it would have been beneficial to directly investigate BoNT/A binding to the neuronal membrane. For instance, this could have been achieved by using a GFP-tagged HC domain of BoNT/A. At present, the authors cannot exclude the possibility that among the 135 hits that did not affect SV2 levels, some might still inhibit BoNT/A binding to the neuronal surface. These concerns, already exemplified by B4CALT4 (which is known to be involved in the synthesis of GT1b), should be explicitly addressed in the main text.

      We agree with the reviewer that perturbation of binding of BonT is possible. We added the following text:

      “Network analysis reveals regulators of signaling, membrane trafficking and thioreductase redox state involved in BoNT/A intoxication

      Among the positive regulators of the screen, 135 hits did not influence significantly surface SV2 levels and are thus likely to function in post-endocytic processes (Supplementary Table 2). However, we cannot formerly exclude that they could affect binding of BonT to the cell surface independently of SV2.”

      (4) The authors should clearly state which reagents they have tried to use in order to explain the challenges they faced when directly testing the trafficking of BoNT/A. The accumulation of Dendra-SV2 bulbous structures at the neurite tips in VPS35-depleted cells could be interpreted as a sign of neuronal stress/death. Have the authors investigated other proteins that do not undergo retro-axonal trafficking in a retromer-dependent manner? This control is essential. In this regard, the use of a GFP-tagged HC domain of BoNT/A could prove to be quite helpful.

      We tried multiple commercially available antibodies against BonT but we could not get a very good signal. The postdoc in charge of this project has now gone to greener pastures and we are not in the capacity to provide the details corresponding to these antibodies. We di dnot observe significant cell death after VPS-35 knockdown at the time of the experiment, however longe rterm treatment might result in toxicity indeed.

      (5) Considering my concerns related to the SNAPR system and the complementation assay to study SNAP25 cleavage and BoNT/A trafficking, I suggest validating some of their major hits (ex. VPS34 and Sec61) by performing WB or IF analysis to examine the cleavage of endogenous SNAP25. Furthermore, the authors should test VPS35 depletion in the context of the experiments performed in Fig. 6G-H, by validating that this protein is essential for BoNT/A retrograde trafficking.

      The reviewer concerns are well noted but as discussed above, the two systems we used are completely orthogonal. Thus, for the reviewer’s concerns to be valid, it would have to be two completely independent artefacts giving rise to the same result. The alternative explanation is that BonT/A translocates in the soma. The Ockham razor principle dictates that the simplest explanation is the likeliest.

      (6) The introduction and the discussion section of this paper completely disregard more than 20 years of research conducted by several labs worldwide (Montecucco, Montal, Schiavo, Rummel, Binz, etc). The authors should make an effort to contextualize their data within the framework of these studies and address the significant discrepancies between their proposed intoxication model and existing research that clearly demonstrates BoNTs translocating upon the endocytic retrieval of SVs at presynaptic sites. Nevertheless, even assuming that the model proposed by the authors is accurate, numerous questions emerge. One such question is: How can the authors explain the exceptional toxicity of botulinum neurotoxin in an ex vivo neuromuscular junction preparation devoid of neuronal cell bodies (see Cesare Montecucco and Andreas Rummel's seminal studies)?

      Please see above in the answer to public reviews.

      (7) Scale bars should be added to all representative pictures.

      This has been done. Thank you for the thorough reading of our manuscript.

      Reviewer #2(Recommendations For The Authors):*

      (1) The title overstates the results. It may be indicated "in differenciated ReNcell VM".

      Title changed to: “Botulinum toxin intoxication requires retrograde transport and membrane translocation at the ER in RenVM neurons”

      (2) In the provided manuscript there are two Figure 2 and no Figure 3. This made the reading and understanding extremely difficult and should be corrected. As a result, the Figure legends do not fit the numbering. There are also discrepancies between some Figure panels (A, B, C, etc), the text, and the Legends. All this needs to be carefully checked.

      We apologize for the confusion as the manuscript as followed multiple rounds of revisions. We have carefully verified labels and legends.

      (3) The BoNT/A-mNG11x3 may introduce some bias that could be discussed. Would these additional peptides block LC translocation from synaptic vesicles in the nerve termini? In addition, the mNG peptides that are unfolded before complementation may direct LC towards Sec61. These aspects should be discussed.

      The comment would be valid if BoNT/A-mNG11x3 was the only approach used in the paper, however the SNAPR reporter is used with native BonT and shows data consistent with the split GFP approach.

      (4) In the Figure about SV2 (Fig 3 or 4): The authors did not locate SV2. The cells seem not to have the same differentiated phenotype as in Figure 1 and Figure 2/3A.

      We apologized above for the mislabeling. It is not clear what is the question here.

      (5) The authors should check whether BoNT/A wt cleaves the endogeneous SNAP25 by western blot for instance in the original ReNcell VN before SNAPR engineering. This should be compared with wt SNAP25 cleavage by the BoNT/A-LC-mNG.

      It is likely that BoNT/A-LC-mNG11 should have similar activity as it is only adding a small peptide at the end of the LC. At any rate, it is not clear why this is so important since both molecules translocate in the cytosol, with the same kinetics and in the same subcellular locale.

      (6) Perhaps I did not understand. How can the authors exclude that what is observed is the kinetic overproduction of the reporter substrate SNAPR?

      The authors could use SLO toxin (PNAS 98, 3185-3190, 2001) to permeabilize the cells all along their body and axon to introduce BoNT/A or LC (wt) and observe synchronized SNAPR cleavage throughout the cells.

      The concept mentioned here is not very clear to us. The reviewer is proposing that the SNAPR is produced much more efficiently at the tips of the neurites and thus its cleavage takes longer to be detected and is apparent first in the soma?? With all due respect, this is a strange hypothesis, at odds with what we know of protein dynamics in the neurons (i.e. most proteins are largely made in the soma and transported or diffuse into the neurites).

      Again, the two orthogonal approaches: split GFP and SNAPR reporter use different constructs and methods, yet converge on similar results. Perhaps, the incredulity of the reviewer might be more productively directed at the current data “demonstrating” the translocation of LC in the synaptic button?

      (7) The authors could also use an essay on neurotransmitter release monitoring by electrophysiology measurements to check the functional consequences of the kinetic diffusion of LC activity along the axon. Can the authors exclude that some toxin molecules translocate from the endocytic vesicles and block neurotransmission within minutes or a few hours?

      It is well established that inhibition of neurotransmission does not occur within minutes in vivo and in vitro, but rather within hours or even days. This kinetic delay is experienced by many patients and is one of the key argument against the current model of self-translocation at the synaptic vesicle level.

      Minor remarks

      Thank you for pointing out all these.

      (1) Please check typos. There are many. Check space before the parenthesis, between numbers and h (hours), reference style etc.

      Thank you. We have reviewed the text and try to eliminate all these instances.

      (2) Line 90: The C of HC should be capitalized.

      Fixed

      (3) Line 107: add space between "neurons(Donato".

      Fixed

      (4) Line 109: space "72 h".

      Fixed

      (5) Line 115: a word is missing ? ...to show retro-axonal... ? Please clarify this sentence.

      Fixed

      (6) Figure 1E: does nm refer to nM (nanomolar)? Please correct. No mention of panel F.

      Fixed

      (7) Line 161: do you mean ~16 µm/h? Please correct.

      Fixed

      (8) Line 168, words are missing.

      Fixed, thank you

      We verified that Cyt-mNG1-10 was expressed using the HA tag, the expression was homogeneously distributed in differentiated neurons and we observed no GFP signal (Figure2C).

      (9) Line 171: Isn't mNG 11 the eleventh beta strand of the neon green fluorescent protein, not alpha helix? Otherwise, can the authors confirm it acquires the shape of an alpha helix? Same at line 326.

      We have corrected the mistake; thanks for pointing it out.

      (10) Figure 2 is doubled. The legend of Fig 2 refers to Figure 3. There is no legend for Figure 2. Then, some figures are shifted in their numbering.

      Fixed

      (11) The fluorescence in the cell body must appear before the fluorescence in the axon due to higher volume. Please discuss.

      The fluorescence progresses in the neurites extensions in a centripetal fashion. The volume of the neurite near the cell body is not significantly different from the end of the neurite. Thus the fluorescence data is consistent with translocation in soma and not with an effect due to higher volume in the soma.

      (12) Figure 2D, right: the term intoxication is improper for this experiment. Rather, it is the presence of the BoNT/A-mNG11 that is detected. I believe the authors should be particularly careful about the use of terms: intoxication means blockade of neurosecretion, SNAPR cleavage means activity etc.

      While the reviewer is correct that it is the presence of BoNT/A-mNG11 that is detected, it remains that it is an active toxin, so the neurons are effectively intoxicated; as they are when we use the wild type toxin. We do not imply that we are measuring intoxication, but simply that the neurons are put into contact with a toxin.

      (13) Line 196: Should we read TXNRD1 is required for BoNT/A LC translocation? TXNRD1 in the current model of translocation is located in the cytoplasm and is supposed to play a role in the cleavage of the disulfide bond linking LC to HC. In the model proposed by this study, LC is translocated through the Sec61 translocon. In this case, I would assume that the protein disulfide isomerase (PDI) in the endoplasmic reticulum would reduce the LC-HC disulfide bond. In that case, TXNRD1 would not be required anymore. Please discuss.

      Why should we assume that a PDI is involved in the reduction of the LC-HC disulfide bond? In our previous studies on A-B toxins (PE and Ricin), different reduction systems seemed to be at play. There is no conceptual imperative to assume reduction in the ER because the Sec61 translocon is implicated. Reduction might occur on the cytosolic side by TXNRD1 or the effect of this reductase could be indirect.

      (14) The legend of Figure 4 (in principle Figure 5?) is not matching with the panels and panel entries are missing (Figure 4F in particular).

      Fixed

      (15) Figure 6 panels E and H, please match colors with legend (grey and another color).

      Not clear

      (16) Please indicate BoNT/A construct concentrations in all Figure legends.

      Done

      (17) Line 416: isn't SV2 also involved in epilepsy?

      Yes it is.

      (18) Line 433: as above, shouldn't the disulfide bond linking LC to HC be cleaved by PDI in the ER in this model (as for other translocating bacterial toxins) rather than by thioredoxin reductases in the cytoplasm? Please discuss.

      See above

      (19) Identification of vATPase in the screen could be consistent with the endocytic vesicle acidification model of translocation.

      Yes

      (20) Did the authors add KCl in screening controls without toxins? This should be detailed in the Materials and Methods. Could there be a KCl effect on the cells? KCl exposure for 48 hours may be highly stressful for cells. The KCl exposure should last only several minutes for toxin entry.

      We did not observe significant cell detah with the cell culture conditions used. Cell viability was controlled at multiple stages using nuclei number for instance

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Main comments: (1) In Figure 1B: could you devise a means to prevent proteosomal degradation of the tGFP cleaved part to assess whether this is formed?

      We have also used a FRET assay after tintoxication and obtained similar results

      (2) Line 152: Where it reads "was not surprising", maybe I missed something, but to me, this is indeed surprising. If the toxin is rapidly internalized and translocated (therefore, it is able to cleave SNAP25), the fact that tGFP requires 48 hours to be degraded seems surprising to me. Or does it mean that the toxin also slows down the degradation of the tGFP fragment? So, how can you differentiate between the effect being on cleavage of the fragment or in tGFP degradation?

      The reviewer is correct, the “not” was a typo due to re-writting; the long delay between adding the toxin and observing cleavage was suprising indeed. Our interpretation is that it is trafficking that takes time, indeed, the split-GFP data kinetics indicates that the toxin takes about 48h to fill up the entire cytosol (Fig. 2D).

      (3) Regarding the effect of Sec61G knockdown, is it possible that the observed effects are indirect and not due to the translocon being directly responsible for translocating the protein?

      As discussed in the last part of the results,Sec61 knock-down results in block of intoxication, but does not prevent BonT from reaching the lumen of the ER (Figure 6G,H). Thus, Sec61 is “is instrumental to the translocation of BoNT/A LC into the neuronal cytosol at the soma.”

      Minor comments:

      (1) Fig. 3E: in the legend I think one of the NT3+ should be NT3-.

      Yes, thanks for spotting it

      (2) Would you consider adding Figure S4 as a main figure?

      Thanks for the suggestion

      (3) Please, check that all microscopy image panels have scale bars.

      Done

      (4) Figure 6B (bottom panes): why does it seem that there is a lot of mNeonGreen positive signal in regions that are not positive for HA? Shouldn't complementation keep HA in the complemented protein.

      Our assumption i sthat there is an excess of receptor protein (HA tag) over reconstituted protein (GFP protein) given the relatively low concentration of toxin being internalized and translocated Refs: (1) Pirazzini M, Azarnia Tehran D, Leka O, Zanetti G, Rossetto O, Montecucco C. On the translocation of botulinum and tetanus neurotoxins across the membrane of acidic intracellular compartments. Biochim Biophys Acta. 2016 Mar;1858(3):467–474. PMID: 26307528

      (2) Pirazzini M, Rossetto O, Eleopra R, Montecucco C. Botulinum Neurotoxins: Biology, Pharmacology, and Toxicology. Pharmacol Rev. 2017 Apr;69(2):200–235. PMCID: PMC5394922

      (3) Dong M, Masuyer G, Stenmark P. Botulinum and Tetanus Neurotoxins. Annu Rev Biochem. Annual Reviews; 2019 Jun 20;88(1):811–837.

      (4) Rossetto O, Pirazzini M, Fabris F, Montecucco C. Botulinum Neurotoxins: Mechanism of Action. Handb Exp Pharmacol. 2021;263:35–47. PMCID: 6671090

      (5) Williams JM, Tsai B. Intracellular trafficking of bacterial toxins. Curr Opin Cell Biol. 2016 Aug;41:51–56. PMCID: PMC4983527

      (6) Mesquita FS, van der Goot FG, Sergeeva OA. Mammalian membrane trafficking as seen through the lens of bacterial toxins. Cell Microbiol. 2020 Apr;22(4):e13167. PMCID: PMC7154709

      (7) Hoch DH, Romero-Mira M, Ehrlich BE, Finkelstein A, DasGupta BR, Simpson LL. Channels formed by botulinum, tetanus, and diphtheria toxins in planar lipid bilayers: relevance to translocation of proteins across membranes. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1985 Mar;82(6):1692–1696. PMCID: PMC397338

      (8) Donovan JJ, Middlebrook JL. Ion-conducting channels produced by botulinum toxin in planar lipid membranes. Biochemistry. 1986 May 20;25(10):2872–2876. PMID: 2424493

      (9) Fischer A, Montal M. Single molecule detection of intermediates during botulinum neurotoxin translocation across membranes. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2007 Jun 19;104(25):10447–10452. PMCID: PMC1965533

      (10) Fischer A, Nakai Y, Eubanks LM, Clancy CM, Tepp WH, Pellett S, Dickerson TJ, Johnson EA, Janda KD, Montal M. Bimodal modulation of the botulinum neurotoxin protein-conducting channel. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2009 Feb 3;106(5):1330–1335. PMCID: PMC2635780

      (11) Fischer A, Montal M. Crucial role of the disulfide bridge between botulinum neurotoxin light and heavy chains in protease translocation across membranes. J Biol Chem. 2007Oct 5;282(40):29604–29611. PMID: 17666397

      (12) Koriazova LK, Montal M. Translocation of botulinum neurotoxin light chain protease through the heavy chain channel. Nature structural biology. 2003. p. 13–18. PMID: 12459720

      (13) Moreau D, Kumar P, Wang SC, Chaumet A, Chew SY, Chevalley H, Bard F.Genome-wide RNAi screens identify genes required for Ricin and PE intoxications. Dev Cell. 2011 Aug 16;21(2):231–244. PMID: 21782526

      (14) Bassik MC, Kampmann M, Lebbink RJ, Wang S, Hein MY, Poser I, Weibezahn J, Horlbeck MA, Chen S, Mann M, Hyman AA, Leproust EM, McManus MT, Weissman JS. A systematic mammalian genetic interaction map reveals pathways underlying ricin susceptibility. Cell. 2013 Feb 14;152(4):909–922. PMCID: PMC3652613

      (15) Tian S, Muneeruddin K, Choi MY, Tao L, Bhuiyan RH, Ohmi Y, Furukawa K, Furukawa K, Boland S, Shaffer SA, Adam RM, Dong M. Genome-wide CRISPR screens for Shiga toxins and ricin reveal Golgi proteins critical for glycosylation. PLoS Biol. 2018 Nov;16(11):e2006951. PMCID: PMC6258472

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      The paper combines experiments on freely gliding cyanobacteria, buckling experiments using two-dimensional V shaped corners, and micropipette force measurements with theoretical models to study gliding forces in these organisms. The aim is to quantify these forces and use the results to perhaps discriminate between competing mechanisms by which these cells move. A large data set of possible collision events are analyzed, bucking events evaluated, and critical buckling lengths estimated. A line elasticity model is used to analyze the onset of buckling and estimate the effective (viscous type) friction/drag that controls the dynamics of the rotation that ensues post-buckling. This value of the friction/drag is compared to a second estimate obtained by consideration of the active forces and speeds in freely gliding filaments. The authors find that these two independent estimates of friction/drag correlate with each other and are comparable in magnitude. The experiments are conducted carefully, the device fabrication is novel, the data set is interesting, and the analysis is solid. The authors conclude that the experiments are consistent with the propulsion being generated by adhesion forces rather than slime extrusion. While consistent with the data, this conclusion is inferred.

      Summary:

      The paper addresses important questions on the mechanisms driving the gliding motility of filamentous cyanobacteria. The authors aim to understand these by estimating the elastic properties of the filaments, and by comparing the resistance to gliding under a) freely gliding conditions, and b) in post-buckled rotational states. Experiments are used to estimate the propulsion force density on freely gliding filaments (assuming over damped conditions). Experiments are combined with a theoretical model based on Euler beam theory to extract friction (viscous) coefficients for filaments that buckle and begin to rotate about the pinned end. The main results are estimates for the bending stiffness of the bacteria, the propulsive tangential force density, the buckling threshold in terms of the length, and estimates of the resistive friction (viscous drag) providing the dissipation in the system and balancing the active force. It is found that experiments on the two bacterial species yield nearly identical value of 𝑓 (albeit with rather large variations). The authors conclude that the experiments are consistent with the propulsion being generated by adhesion forces rather than slime extrusion.

      Strengths of the paper:

      The strengths of the paper lie in the novel experimental setup and measurements that allow for the estimation of the propulsive force density, critical buckling length, and effective viscous drag forces for movement of the filament along its contour - the axial (parallel) drag coefficient, and the normal (perpendicular) drag coefficient (I assume this is the case, since the post-buckling analysis assumes the bent filament rotates at a constant frequency). These direct measurements are important for serious analysis and discrimination between motility mechanisms.

      Weaknesses:

      There are aspects of the analysis and discussion that may be improved. I suggest that the authors take the following comments into consideration while revising their manuscript.

      The conclusion that adhesion via focal adhesions is the cause for propulsion rather than slime protrusion, is consistent with the experimental results that the frictional drag correlates with propulsion force. At the same time, it is hard to rule out other factors that may result in this (friction) viscous drag - (active) force relationship while still being consistent with slime production. More detailed analysis aiming to discriminate between adhesion vs slime protrusion may be outside the scope of the study, but the authors may still want to elaborate on their inference. It would help if there was a detailed discussion on the differences in terms of the active force term for the focal adhesion-based motility vs the slime motility.

      Can the authors comment on possible mechanisms (perhaps from the literature) that indicate how isotropic friction may be generated in settings where focal adhesions drive motility. A key aspect here would probably be estimating the extent of this adhesion patch and comparing it to a characteristic contact area. Can lubrication theory be used to estimate characteristic areas of contact (knowing the radius of the filament, and assuming a height above substrate)? If the focal adhesions typically cover areas smaller than this lubrication area, it may suggest the possibility that bacteria essentially present a flat surface insofar as adhesion is concerned, leading to transversely isotropic response in terms of the drag. Of course, we will still require the effective propulsive force to act along the tangent.

      I am not sure why the authors mention that the power of the gliding apparatus is not rate limiting. The only way to verify this would be to put these in highly viscous fluids where the drag of the external fluid comes into the picture as well (if focal adhesions are on the substrate facing side, and the upper side is subject to ambient fluid drag). Also, the friction referred to here has the form of a viscous drag (no memory effect, and thus not viscoelastic or gel-like), and it is not clear if forces generated by adhesion involve other forms of drag such as chemical friction via temporary bonds forming and breaking. In quasi-static settings and under certain conditions such as separation of chemical and elastic time scales, bond friction may yield overall force proportional to local sliding velocities.

      For readers from a non-fluids background, some additional discussion of the drag forces, and the forms of friction would help. For a freely gliding filament if 𝑓 is the force density (per unit length), then steady gliding with a viscous frictional drag would suggest (as mentioned in the paper) 𝑓 ∼ 𝑣! 𝐿 𝜂∥. The critical buckling length is then dependent on 𝑓 and on 𝐵 the bending modulus. Here the effective drag is defined per length. I can see from this that if the active force is fixed, and the viscous component resulting from the frictional mechanism is fixed, the critical buckling length will not depend on the velocity (unless I am missing something in their argument), since the velocity is not a primitive variable, and is itself an emergent quantity.

    2. Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      In the presented manuscript, the authors first use structured microfluidic devices with gliding filamentous cyanobacteria inside in combination with micropipette force measurements to measure the bending rigidity of the filaments. The distribution of bending rigidities is very broad.

      Next, they use triangular structures to trap the bacteria with the front against an obstacle. Depending on the length and rigidity, the filaments buckle under the propulsive force of the cells. The authors use theoretical expressions for the buckling threshold to infer propulsive force, given the measured length and (mean-) stiffnesses. They find nearly identical values for both species, 𝑓 ∼ (1.0 {plus minus} 0.6) nN∕µm, nearly independent of the velocity. These measurements have to be taken with additional care, as then inferred forces depend strongly on the bending rigidity, which already shows a broad distribution.

      Finally, they measure the shape of the filament dynamically to infer friction coefficients via Kirchhoff theory. In this section they report a strong correlation with velocity and report propulsive forces that vary over two orders of magnitude.

      From a theoretical perspective, not many new results are presented. The authors repeat the the well-known calculation for filaments buckling under propulsive load and arrive at the literature result of buckling when the dimensionless number (f L^3/B) is larger than 30.6 as previously derived by Sekimoto et al in 1995. In my humble opinion, the "buckling theory" section belongs to methods.<br /> Finally, the Authors use molecular dynamics type simulations similar to other models to reproduce the buckling dynamics from the experiments.

      Data and source code are available via trusted institutional or third-party repositories that adhere to policies that make data discoverable, accessible and usable.

    3. Author response:

      Reviewer 1:

      The paper “Quantifying gliding forces of filamentous cyanobacteria by self-buckling” combines experiments on freely gliding cyanobacteria, buckling experiments using two-dimensional V-shaped corners, and micropipette force measurements with theoretical models to study gliding forces in these organisms. The aim is to quantify these forces and use the results to perhaps discriminate between competing mechanisms by which these cells move. A large data set of possible collision events are analyzed, bucking events evaluated, and critical buckling lengths estimated. A line elasticity model is used to analyze the onset of buckling and estimate the effective (viscous type) friction/drag that controls the dynamics of the rotation that ensues post-buckling. This value of the friction/drag is compared to a second estimate obtained by consideration of the active forces and speeds in freely gliding filaments. The authors find that these two independent estimates of friction/drag correlate with each other and are comparable in magnitude. The experiments are conducted carefully, the device fabrication is novel, the data set is interesting, and the analysis is solid. The authors conclude that the experiments are consistent with the propulsion being generated by adhesion forces rather than slime extrusion. While consistent with the data, this conclusion is inferred.

      We thank the reviewer for the positive evaluation of our work.

      Summary:

      The paper addresses important questions on the mechanisms driving the gliding motility of filamentous cyanobacteria. The authors aim to understand these by estimating the elastic properties of the filaments, and by comparing the resistance to gliding under a) freely gliding conditions, and b) in post-buckled rotational states. Experiments are used to estimate the propulsion force density on freely gliding filaments (assuming over-damped conditions). Experiments are combined with a theoretical model based on Euler beam theory to extract friction (viscous) coefficients for filaments that buckle and begin to rotate about the pinned end. The main results are estimates for the bending stiffness of the bacteria, the propulsive tangential force density, the buckling threshold in terms of the length, and estimates of the resistive friction (viscous drag) providing the dissipation in the system and balancing the active force. It is found that experiments on the two bacterial species yield nearly identical values of f (albeit with rather large variations). The authors conclude that the experiments are consistent with the propulsion being generated by adhesion forces rather than slime extrusion.

      We appreciate this comprehensive summary of our work.

      Strengths of the paper:

      The strengths of the paper lie in the novel experimental setup and measurements that allow for the estimation of the propulsive force density, critical buckling length, and effective viscous drag forces for movement of the filament along its contour – the axial (parallel) drag coefficient, and the normal (perpendicular) drag coefficient (I assume this is the case, since the post-buckling analysis assumes the bent filament rotates at a constant frequency). These direct measurements are important for serious analysis and discrimination between motility mechanisms.

      We thank the reviewer for this positive assessment of our work.

      Weaknesses:

      There are aspects of the analysis and discussion that may be improved. I suggest that the authors take the following comments into consideration while revising their manuscript.

      The conclusion that adhesion via focal adhesions is the cause for propulsion rather than slime protrusion is consistent with the experimental results that the frictional drag correlates with propulsion force. At the same time, it is hard to rule out other factors that may result in this (friction) viscous drag - (active) force relationship while still being consistent with slime production. More detailed analysis aiming to discriminate between adhesion vs slime protrusion may be outside the scope of the study, but the authors may still want to elaborate on their inference. It would help if there was a detailed discussion on the differences in terms of the active force term for the focal adhesion-based motility vs the slime motility.

      We appreciate this critical assessment of our conclusions. Of course we are aware that many different mechanisms may lead to similar force/friction characteristics, and that a definitive conclusion on the mechanism would require the combination of various techniques, which is beyond the scope of this work. Therefore, we were very careful in formulating the discussion of our findings, refraining, in particular, from a singular conclusion on the mechanism but instead indicating “support” for one hypothesis over another, and emphasizing “that many other possibilities exist”.

      The most common concurrent hypotheses for bacterial gliding suggest that either slime extrusion at the junctional pore complex [A1], rhythmic contraction of fibrillar arrays at the cell wall [A2], focal adhesion sites connected to intracellular motor-microtubule complexes [A3], or modified type-IV pilus apparati [A4] provide the propulsion forces. For the slime extrusion hypothesis, which is still abundant today, one would rather expect an anticorrelation of force and friction: more slime extrusion would generate more force, but also enhance lubrication. The other hypotheses are more conformal to the trend we observed in our experiments, because both pili and focal adhesion require direct contact with a substrate. How contraction of fibrilar arrays would micromechanically couple to the environment is not clear to us, but direct contact might still facilitate force transduction. Please note that these hypotheses were all postulated without any mechanical measurements, solely based on ultra-structural electron microscopy and/or genetic or proteomic experiments. We see our work as complementary to that, providing a mechanical basis for evaluating these hypotheses.

      We agree with the referee that narrowing down this discussion to focal adhesion should have been avoided. We rewrote the concluding paragraph (page 8):

      “…it indicates that friction and propulsion forces, despite being quite vari able, correlate strongly. Thus, generating more force comes, inevitably, at the expense of added friction. For lubricated contacts, the friction coefficient is proportional to the thickness of the lubricating layer (Snoeijer et al., 2013 ), and we conjecture active force and drag both increase due to a more intimate contact with the substrate. This supports mechanisms like focal adhesion (Mignot et al., 2007 ) or a modified type-IV pilus (Khayatan et al., 2015 ), which generate forces through contact with extracellular surfaces, as the underlying mechanism of the gliding apparatus of filamentous cyanobacteria: more contacts generate more force, but also closer contact with the substrate, thereby increasing friction to the same extent. Force generation by slime extrusion (Hoiczyk and Baumeister, 1998 ), in contrast, would lead to the opposite behavior: More slime generates more propulsion, but also reduces friction. Besides fundamental fluid-mechanical considerations (Snoeijer et al., 2013 ), this is rationalized by two experimental observations: i. gliding velocity correlates positively with slime layer thickness (Dhahri et al., 2013 ) and ii. motility in slime-secretion deficient mutants is restored upon exogenous addition of polysaccharide slime. Still we emphasize that many other possibilities exist. One could, for instance, postulate a regulation of the generated forces to the experienced friction, to maintain some preferred or saturated velocity.”

      Can the authors comment on possible mechanisms (perhaps from the literature) that indicate how isotropic friction may be generated in settings where focal adhesions drive motility? A key aspect here would probably be estimating the extent of this adhesion patch and comparing it to a characteristic contact area. Can lubrication theory be used to estimate characteristic areas of contact (knowing the radius of the filament, and assuming a height above the substrate)? If the focal adhesions typically cover areas smaller than this lubrication area, it may suggest the possibility that bacteria essentially present a flat surface insofar as adhesion is concerned, leading to a transversely isotropic response in terms of the drag. Of course, we will still require the effective propulsive force to act along the tangent.

      We thank the referee for suggesting to estimate the dimensions of the contact region. Both pili and focal adhesion sites would be of sizes below one micron [A3, A4], much smaller than the typical contact region in the lubricated contact, which is on the order of the filament radius (few microns). So indeed, isotropic friction may be expected in this situation [A5] and is assumed frequently in theoretical work [A6–A8]. Anisotropy may then indeed be induced by active forces [A9], but we are not aware of measurements of the anisotropy of friction in bacterial gliding.

      For a more precise estimate using lubrication theory, rheology and extrusion rate of the secreted polysaccharides would have to be known, but we are not aware of detailed experimental characterizations.

      We extended the paragraph in the buckling theory on page 5 regarding the assumption of isotropic friction:

      “We use classical Kirchhoff theory for a uniform beam of length L and bending modulus B, subject to a force density ⃗b = −f ⃗t− η ⃗v, with an effective active force density f along the tangent ⃗t, and an effective friction proportional to the local velocity ⃗v, analog to existing literature (Fily et al., 2020; Chelakkot et al., 2014; Sekimoto et al., 1995 ). Presumably, this friction is dominated by the lubrication drag from the contact with the substrate, filled by a thin layer of secreted polysaccharide slime which is much more viscous than the surrounding bulk fluid. Speculatively, the motility mechanism might also comprise adhering elements like pili (Khayatan et al., 2015 ) or foci (Mignot et al., 2007 ) that increase the overall friction (Pompe et al., 2015 ). Thus, the drag due to the surrounding bulk fluid can be neglected (Man and Kanso, 2019 ), and friction is assumed to be isotropic, a common assumption in motility models (Fei et al., 2020; Tchoufag et al., 2019; Wada et al., 2013 ). We assume…”

      We also extended the discussion regarding the outcome of isotropic friction (page 7):

      “…Thus we plot f/v over η in Figure 4 D, finding nearly identical values over about two decades. Since f and η are not correlated with v0, this is due to a correlation between f and η. This relation is remarkable in two aspects: On the one hand, it indicates that friction is mainly isotropic. This suggests that friction is governed by an isotropic process like bond friction or lubrication from the slime layer in the contact with the substrate, the latter being consistent with the observation that mutations deficient of slime secretion do not glide but exogenous addition of slime restores motility (Khayatan et al., 2015 ). In contrast, hydrodynamic drag from the surrounding bulk fluid (Man and Kanso, 2019 ), or the internal friction of the gliding apparatus would be expected to generate strongly anisotropic friction. If the latter was dominant, a snapping-like transition into the buckling state would be expected, rather than the continuously growing amplitude that is observed in experiments. On the other hand, it indicates that friction and propulsion forces…”

      I am not sure why the authors mention that the power of the gliding apparatus is not rate-limiting. The only way to verify this would be to put these in highly viscous fluids where the drag of the external fluid comes into the picture as well (if focal adhesions are on the substrate-facing side, and the upper side is subject to ambient fluid drag). Also, the friction referred to here has the form of a viscous drag (no memory effect, and thus not viscoelastic or gel-like), and it is not clear if forces generated by adhesion involve other forms of drag such as chemical friction via temporary bonds forming and breaking. In quasi-static settings and under certain conditions such as the separation of chemical and elastic time scales, bond friction may yield overall force proportional to local sliding velocities.

      We agree with the referee that the origin of the friction is not easily resolved. Lubrication yields an isotropic force density that is proportional to the velocity, and the same could be generated by bond friction. Importantly, both types of friction would be assumed to be predominantly isotropic. We explicitly referred to lubrication drag because it has been shown that mutations deficient of slime extrusion do not glide [A4].

      Assuming, in contrast, that in free gliding, friction with the environment is not rate limiting, but rather the internal friction of the gliding apparatus, i.e., the available power, we would expect a rather different behavior during early-buckling evolution. During early buckling, the tangential motion is stalled, and the dynamics is dominated by the growing buckling amplitude of filament regions near the front end, which move mainly transversely. For geometric reasons, in this stage the (transverse) buckling amplitude grows much faster than the rear part of the filament advances longitudinally. Thus that motion should not be impeded much by the internal friction of the gliding apparatus, but by external friction between the buckling parts of the filament and the ambient. The rate at which the buckling amplitude initially grows should be limited by the accumulated compressive stress in the filament and the transverse friction with the substrate. If the latter were much smaller than the (logitudinal) internal friction of the gliding apparatus, we would expect a snapping-like transition into the buckled state, which we did not observe.

      In our paper, we do not intend to evaluate the exact origin of the friction, quantifying the gliding force is the main objective. A linear force-velocity relation agrees with our observations. A detailed analysis of friction in cyanobacterial gliding would be an interesting direction for future work.

      To make these considerations more clear, we rephrased the corresponding paragraph on page 7 & 8:

      “…Thus we plot f/v over η in Figure 4 D, finding nearly identical values over about two decades. Since f and η are not correlated with v0, this is due to a correlation between f and η. This relation is remarkable in two aspects: On the one hand, it indicates that friction is mainly isotropic. This suggests that friction is governed by an isotropic process like bond friction or lubrication from the slime layer in the contact with the substrate, the latter being consistent with the observation that mutations deficient of slime secretion do not glide but exogenous addition of slime restores motility (Khayatan et al., 2015 ). In contrast, hydrodynamic drag from the surrounding bulk fluid (Man and Kanso, 2019 ), or the internal friction of the gliding apparatus would be expected to generate strongly anisotropic friction. If the latter was dominant, a snapping-like transition into the buckling state would be expected, rather than the continuously growing amplitude that is observed in experiments. On the other hand, it indicates that friction and propulsion forces…”

      For readers from a non-fluids background, some additional discussion of the drag forces, and the forms of friction would help. For a freely gliding filament if f is the force density (per unit length), then steady gliding with a viscous frictional drag would suggest (as mentioned in the paper) f ∼ v! L η||. The critical buckling length is then dependent on f and on B the bending modulus. Here the effective drag is defined per length. I can see from this that if the active force is fixed, and the viscous component resulting from the frictional mechanism is fixed, the critical buckling length will not depend on the velocity (unless I am missing something in their argument), since the velocity is not a primitive variable, and is itself an emergent quantity.

      We are not sure what “f ∼ v! L η||” means, possibly the spelling was corrupted in the forwarding of the comments.

      We assumed an overdamped motion in which the friction force density ff (per unit length of the filament) is proportional to the velocity v0, i.e. ff ∼ η v0, with a friction coefficient η. Overdamped means that the friction force density is equal and opposite to the propulsion force density, so the propulsion force density is f ∼ ff ∼ η v0. The total friction and propulsion forces can be obtained by multiplication with the filament length

      L, which is not required here. In this picture, v0 is an emergent quantity and f and η are assumed as given and constant. Thus, by observing v0, f can be inferred up to the friction coefficient η. Therefore, by using two descriptive variables, L and v0, with known B, the primitive variable η can be inferred by logistic regression, and f then follows from the overdamped equation of motion.

      To clarify this, we revised the corresponding section on page 5 of the paper:

      “The substrate contact requires lubrication from polysaccharide slime to enable bacteria to glide (Khayatan et al., 2015 ). Thus we assume an over- damped motion with co-linear friction, for which the propulsion force f and the free gliding velocity v0 of a filament are related by f = η v0, with a friction coefficient η. In this scenario, f can be inferred both from the observed Lc ∼ (f/B)−1/3 and, up to the proportionality coefficient η, from the observed free gliding velocity. Thus, by combining the two relations, one may expect also a strong correlation between Lc and v0. In order to test this relation for consistency with our data, we include v0 as a second regressor, by setting x = (L−Lc(v0))/∆Lc in Equation 1, with Lc(v0) = (η v0/(30.5722 B))−1/3, to reflect our expectation from theory (see below). Now, η rather than f is the only unknown, and its ensemble distribution will be determined in the regression. Figure 3 E,F show the buckling behavior…”

      Reviewer 2:

      In the presented manuscript, the authors first use structured microfluidic devices with gliding filamentous cyanobacteria inside in combination with micropipette force measurements to measure the bending rigidity of the filaments.

      Next, they use triangular structures to trap the bacteria with the front against an obstacle. Depending on the length and rigidity, the filaments buckle under the propulsive force of the cells. The authors use theoretical expressions for the buckling threshold to infer propulsive force, given the measured length and stiffnesses. They find nearly identical values for both species, f ∼ (1.0 ± 0.6) nN/µm, nearly independent of the velocity.

      Finally, they measure the shape of the filament dynamically to infer friction coefficients via Kirchhoff theory. This last part seems a bit inconsistent with the previous inference of propulsive force. Before, they assumed the same propulsive force for all bacteria and showed only a very weak correlation between buckling and propulsive velocity. In this section, they report a strong correlation with velocity, and report propulsive forces that vary over two orders of magnitude. I might be misunderstanding something, but I think this discrepancy should have been discussed or explained.

      We regret the misunderstanding of the reviewer regarding the velocity dependence, which indicates that the manuscript should be improved to convey these relations correctly.

      First, in the Buckling Measurements section, we did not assume the same propulsion force for all bacteria. The logistic regression yields an ensemble median for Lc (and thus an ensemble median for f ), along with the width ∆Lc of the distribution (and thus also the width of the distribution of f ). Our result f ∼ (1.0 ± 0.6) nN/µm indicates the median and the width of the distribution of the propulsion force densities across the ensemble of several hundred filaments used in the buckling measurements. The large variability of the forces found in the second part is consistently reflected by this very wide distribution of active forces detected in the logistic regression in the first part.

      We did small modifications to the buckling theory paragraph to clarify that in the first part, a distribution of forces rather than a constant value is inferred (page 6)

      “Inserting the population median and quartiles of the distributions of bending modulus and critical length, we can now quantify the distribution of the active force density for the filaments in the ensemble from the buckling measurements. We obtain nearly identical values for both species, f ∼ (1.0±0.6) nN/µm, where the uncertainty represents a wide distribution of f across the ensemble rather than a measurement error.”

      The same holds, of course, when inferring the distribution of the friction coefficients (page 5):

      “The substrate contact requires lubrication from polysaccharide slime to enable bacteria to glide (Khayatan et al., 2015 ). Thus we assume an over- damped motion with co-linear friction, for which the propulsion force f and the free gliding velocity v0 of a filament are related by f = η v0, with a friction coefficient η. In this scenario, f can be inferred both from the observed Lc ∼ (f/B)−1/3 and, up to the proportionality coefficient η, from the observed free gliding velocity. Thus, by combining the two relations, one may expect also a strong correlation between Lc and v0. In order to test this relation for consistency with our data, we include v0 as a second regressor, by setting x = (L−Lc(v0))/∆Lc in Equation 1, with Lc(v0) = (η v0/(30.5722 B))−1/3, to reflect our expectation from theory (see below). Now, η rather than f is the only unknown, and its ensemble distribution will be determined in the regression. Figure 3 E,F show the buckling behavior…”

      The (naturally) wide distribution of force (and friction) leads to a distribution of Lc as well. However, due to the small exponent of 1/3 in the buckling threshold Lc ∼ f 1/3, the distribution of Lc is not as wide as the distributions of the individually inferred f or η. This is visualized in panel G of Figure 3, plotting Lc as a function of v0 (v0 is equivalent to f , up to a proportionality coefficient η). The natural length distribution, in contrast, is very wide. Therefore, the buckling propensity of a filament is most strongly characterized by its length, while force variability, which alters Lc of the individual, plays a secondary role.

      In order to clarify this, we edited the last paragraph of the Buckling Measurements section on page 5 of the manuscript:

      “…Within the characteristic range of observed velocities (1 − 3 µm/s), the median Lc depends only mildly on v0, as compared to its rather broad distribution, indicated by the bands in Figure 3 G. Thus a possible correlation between f and v0 would only mildly alter Lc. The natural length distribution (cf. Appendix 1—figure 1 ), however, is very broad, and we conclude that growth rather than velocity or force distributions most strongly impacts the buckling propensity of cyanobacterial colonies. Also, we hardly observed short and fast filaments of K. animale, which might be caused by physiological limitations (Burkholder, 1934 ).”

      Second, in the Profile analysis section, we did not report a correlation between force and velocity. As can be seen in Figure 4—figure Supplement 1, neither the active force nor the friction coefficient, as determined from the analysis of individual filaments, show any significant correlation with the velocity. This is also written in the discussion (page 7):

      We see no significant correlation between L or v0 and f or η, but the observed values of f and η cover a wide range (Figure 4 B, C and Figure 4—figure Supplement 1 ).

      Note that this is indeed consistent with the logistic regression: Using v0 as a second regressor did not significantly reduce the width of the distribution of Lc as compared to the simple logistic regression, indicating that force and velocity are not strongly correlated.

      In order to clarify this in the manuscript, we modified that part (page 7):

      “…We see no significant correlation between L or v0 and f or η, but the observed values of f and η cover a wide range (Figure 4 B,C and Figure 4— figure Supplement 1 ). This is consistent with the logistic regression, where using v0 as a second regressor did not significantly reduce the width of the distribution of critical lengths or active forces. The two estimates of the friction coefficient, from logistic regression and individual profile fits, are measured in (predominantly) orthogonal directions: tangentially for the logistic regression where the free gliding velocity was used, and transversely for the evolution of the buckling profiles. Thus we plot f/v over η in Figure 4 D, finding nearly identical values over about two decades. Since f and η are not correlated with v0, this is due to a correlation between f and η. This relation is remarkable in two aspects: On the one hand, it indicates that friction is mainly isotropic…”

      From a theoretical perspective, not many new results are presented. The authors repeat the well-known calculation for filaments buckling under propulsive load and arrive at the literature result of buckling when the dimensionless number (f L3/B) is larger than 30.6 as previously derived by Sekimoto et al in 1995 [1] (see [2] for a clamped boundary condition and simulations). Other theoretical predictions for pushed semi-flexible filaments [1–4] are not discussed or compared with the experiments. Finally, the Authors use molecular dynamics type simulations similar to [2–4] to reproduce the buckling dynamics from the experiments. Unfortunately, no systematic comparison is performed.

      [1]        Ken Sekimoto, Naoki Mori, Katsuhisa Tawada, and Yoko Y Toyoshima. Symmetry breaking instabilities of an in vitro biological system. Physical review letters, 75(1):172, 1995.

      [2]       Raghunath Chelakkot, Arvind Gopinath, Lakshminarayanan Mahadevan, and Michael F Hagan. Flagellar dynamics of a connected chain of active, polar, brownian particles. Journal of The Royal Society Interface, 11(92):20130884, 2014.

      [3]       Rolf E Isele-Holder, Jens Elgeti, and Gerhard Gompper. Self-propelled worm-like filaments: spontaneous spiral formation, structure, and dynamics. Soft matter, 11(36):7181–7190, 2015.

      [4]       Rolf E Isele-Holder, Julia J¨ager, Guglielmo Saggiorato, Jens Elgeti, and Gerhard Gompper. Dynamics of self-propelled filaments pushing a load. Soft Matter, 12(41):8495–8505, 2016.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing us to these publications, in particular the work by Sekimoto we were not aware of. We agree with the referee that the calculation is straight forward (basically known since Euler, up to modified boundary conditions). Our paper focuses on experimental work, the molecular dynamics simulations were included mainly as a consistency check and not intended to generate the beautiful post-buckling patterns observed in references [2-4]. However, such shapes do emerge in filamentous cyanobacteria, and with the data provided in our manuscript, simulations can be quantitatively matched to our experiments, which will be covered by future work.

      We included the references in the revision of our manuscript, and a statement that we do not claim priority on these classical theoretical results.

      Introduction, page 2:

      “…Self-Buckling is an important instability for self-propelling rod-like micro-organisms to change the orientation of their motion, enabling aggregation or the escape from traps (Fily et al., 2020; Man and Kanso, 2019; Isele-Holder et al., 2015; Isele-Holder et al., 2016 ). The notion of self-buckling goes back to work of Leonhard Euler in 1780, who described elastic columns subject to gravity (Elishakoff, 2000 ). Here, the principle is adapted to the self-propelling, flexible filaments (Fily et al., 2020; Man and Kanso, 2019; Sekimoto et al., 1995 ) that glide onto an obstacle. Filaments buckle if they exceed a certain critical length Lc ∼ (B/f)1/3, where B is the bending modulus and f the propulsion force density…”

      Buckling theory, page 5:

      “…The buckling of gliding filaments differs in two aspects: the propulsion forces are oriented tangentially instead of vertically, and the front end is supported instead of clamped. Therefore, with L < Lc all initial orientations are indifferently stable, while for L > Lc, buckling induces curvature and a resultant torque on the head, leading to rotation (Fily et al., 2020; Chelakkot et al., 2014; Sekimoto et al., 1995 ). Buckling under concentrated tangential end-loads has also been investigated in literature (de Canio et al., 2017; Wolgemuth et al., 2005 ), but leads to substantially different shapes of buckled filaments. We use classical Kirchhoff theory for a uniform beam of length L and bending modulus B, subject to a force density ⃗b = −f ⃗t − η ⃗v, with an effective active force density f along the tangent ⃗t, and an effective friction proportional to the local velocity ⃗v, analog to existing literature (Fily et al., 2020; Chelakkot et al., 2014; Sekimoto et al., 1995 )…”

      Further on page 6:

      “To derive the critical self-buckling length, Equation 5 can be linearized for two scenarios that lead to the same Lc: early-time small amplitude buckling and late-time stationary rotation at small and constant curvature (Fily et al., 2020; Chelakkot et al., 2014 ; Sekimoto et al., 1995 ). […] Thus, in physical units, the critical length is given by Lc = (30.5722 B/f)1/3, which is reproduced in particle based simulations (Appendix Figure 2 ) analogous to those in Isele-Holder et al. (2015, 2016).”

      Discussion, page 7 & 8:

      “…This, in turn, has dramatic consequences on the exploration behavior and the emerging patterns (Isele-Holder et al., 2015, 2016; Abbaspour et al., 2021; Duman et al., 2018; Prathyusha et al., 2018; Jung et al., 2020 ): (L/Lc)3 is, up to a numerical prefactor, identical to the flexure number (Isele-Holder et al., 2015, 2016; Duman et al., 2018; Winkler et al., 2017 ), the ratio of the Peclet number and the persistence length of active polymer melts. Thus, the ample variety of non-equilibrium phases in such materials (Isele-Holder et al., 2015, 2016; Prathyusha et al., 2018; Abbaspour et al., 2021 ) may well have contributed to the evolutionary success of filamentous cyanobacteria.”

      Reviewer 3:

      Summary:

      This paper presents novel and innovative force measurements of the biophysics of gliding cyanobacteria filaments. These measurements allow for estimates of the resistive force between the cell and substrate and provide potential insight into the motility mechanism of these cells, which remains unknown.

      We thank the reviewer for the positive evaluation of our work. We have revised the manuscript according to their comments and detail our replies and modifications next to the individual points below.

      Strengths:

      The authors used well-designed microfabricated devices to measure the bending modulus of these cells and to determine the critical length at which the cells buckle. I especially appreciated the way the authors constructed an array of pillars and used it to do 3-point bending measurements and the arrangement the authors used to direct cells into a V-shaped corner in order to examine at what length the cells buckled at. By examining the gliding speed of the cells before buckling events, the authors were able to determine how strongly the buckling length depends on the gliding speed, which could be an indicator of how the force exerted by the cells depends on cell length; however, the authors did not comment on this directly.

      We thank the referee for the positive assessment of our work. Importantly, we do not see a significant correlation between buckling length and gliding speeds, and we also do not see a correlation with filament length, consistent with the assumption of a propulsion force density that is more or less homogeneously distributed along the filament. Note that each filament consists of many metabolically independent cells, which renders cyanobacterial gliding a collective effort of many cells, in contrast to gliding of, e.g., myxobacteria.

      In response also to the other referees’ comments, we modified the manuscript to reflect more on the absence of a strong correlation between velocity and force/critical length. We modified the Buckling measurements section on page 5 of the paper:

      “The substrate contact requires lubrication from polysaccharide slime to enable bacteria to glide (Khayatan et al., 2015 ). Thus we assume an over-damped motion with co-linear friction, for which the propulsion force f and the free gliding velocity v0 of a filament are related by f = η v0, with a friction coefficient η. In this scenario, f can be inferred both from the observed Lc ∼ (f/B)−1/3 and, up to the proportionality coefficient η, from the observed free gliding velocity. Thus, by combining the two relations, one may expect also a strong correlation between Lc and v0. In order to test this relation for consistency with our data, we include v0 as a second regressor, by setting x = (L−Lc(v0))/∆Lc in Equation 1, with Lc(v0) = (η v0/(30.5722 B))−1/3, to reflect our expectation from theory (see below). Now, η rather than f is the only unknown, and its ensemble distribution will be determined in the regression. Figure 3 E, F show the buckling behavior…”

      Further, we edited the last paragraph of the Buckling measurements section on page 5 of the manuscript:

      “Within the characteristic range of observed velocities (1 − 3 µm/s), the median Lc depends only mildly on v0, as compared to its rather broad distribution, indicated by the bands in Figure 3 G. Thus a possible correlation between f and v0 would only mildly alter Lc. The natural length distribution (cf. Appendix 1—figure 1 ), however, is very broad, and we conclude that growth rather than velocity or force distributions most strongly impacts the buckling propensity of cyanobacterial colonies. Also, we hardly observed short and fast filaments of K. animale, which might be caused by physiological limitations (Burkholder, 1934 ).”

      We also rephrased the corresponding discussion paragraph on page 7:

      “…Thus we plot f/v over η in Figure 4 D, finding nearly identical values over about two decades. Since f and η are not correlated with v0, this is due to a correlation between f and η. This relation is remarkable in two aspects: On the one hand, it indicates that friction is mainly isotropic. This suggests that friction is governed by an isotropic process like bond friction or lubrication from the slime layer in the contact with the substrate, the latter being consistent with the observation that mutations deficient of slime secretion do not glide but exogenous addition of slime restores motility (Khayatan et al., 2015 ). In contrast, hydrodynamic drag from the surrounding bulk fluid (Man and Kanso, 2019 ), or the internal friction of the gliding apparatus would be expected to generate strongly anisotropic friction. If the latter was dominant, a snapping-like transition into the buckling state would be expected, rather than the continuously growing amplitude that is observed in experiments. On the other hand, it indicates that friction and propulsion forces…”

      Weaknesses:

      There were two minor weaknesses in the paper.

      First, the authors investigate the buckling of these gliding cells using an Euler beam model. A similar mathematical analysis was used to estimate the bending modulus and gliding force for Myxobacteria (C.W. Wolgemuth, Biophys. J. 89: 945-950 (2005)). A similar mathematical model was also examined in G. De Canio, E. Lauga, and R.E Goldstein, J. Roy. Soc. Interface, 14: 20170491 (2017). The authors should have cited these previous works and pointed out any differences between what they did and what was done before.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing us to these references. The paper by Wolgemuth is theoretical work, describing A-motility in myxobacteria by a concentrated propulsion force at the rear end of the bacterium, possibly stemming from slime extrusion. This model was a little later refuted by [A3], who demonstrated that focal adhesion along the bacterial body and thus a distributed force powers A-motility, a mechanism that has by now been investigated in great detail (see [A10]). The paper by Canio et al. contains a thorough theoretical analysis of a filament that is clamped at one end and subject to a concentrated tangential load on the other. Since both models comprise a concentrated end-load rather than a distributed propulsion force density, they describe a substantially different motility mechanism, leading also to substantially different buckling profiles. Consequentially, these models cannot be applied to cyanobacterial gliding.

      We included both citations in the revision and pointed out the differences to our work in the introduction (page 2):

      “…A few species appear to employ a type-IV-pilus related mechanism (Khayatan et al., 2015; Wilde and Mullineaux, 2015 ), similar to the better- studied myxobacteria (Godwin et al., 1989; Mignot et al., 2007; Nan et al., 2014; Copenhagen et al., 2021; Godwin et al., 1989 ), which are short, rod-shaped single cells that exhibit two types of motility: S (social) motility based on pilus extension and retraction, and A (adventurous) motility based on focal adhesion (Chen and Nan, 2022 ) for which also slime extrusion at the trailing cell pole was earlier postulated as mechanism (Wolgemuth et al., 2005 ). Yet, most gliding filamentous cyanobacteria do not exhibit pili and their gliding mechanism appears to be distinct from myxobacteria (Khayatan et al., 2015 ).”

      And in Buckling theory, page 5:

      “….The buckling of gliding filaments differs in two aspects: the propulsion forces are oriented tangentially instead of vertically, and the front end is supported instead of clamped. Therefore, with L < Lc all initial orientations are indifferently stable, while for L > Lc, buckling induces curvature and a resultant torque on the head, leading to rotation (Fily et al., 2020; Chelakkot et al., 2014; Sekimoto et al., 1995 ). Buckling under concentrated tangential end-loads has also been investigated in literature (de Canio et al., 2017; Wolgemuth et al., 2005 ), but leads to substantially different shapes of buckled filaments.”

      The second weakness is that the authors claim that their results favor a focal adhesion-based mechanism for cyanobacterial gliding motility. This is based on their result that friction and adhesion forces correlate strongly. They then conjecture that this is due to more intimate contact with the surface, with more contacts producing more force and pulling the filaments closer to the substrate, which produces more friction. They then claim that a slime-extrusion mechanism would necessarily involve more force and lower friction. Is it necessarily true that this latter statement is correct? (I admit that it could be, but is it a requirement?)

      We thank the referee for raising this interesting question. Our claim regarding slime extrusion is based on three facts: i. mutations deficient of slime extrusion do not glide, but start gliding as soon as slime is provided externally [A4]. ii. A positive correlation between speed and slime layer thickness was observed in Nostoc [A11]. iii. The fluid mechanics of lubricated sliding contacts is very well understood and predicts a decreasing resistance with increasing layer thickness.

      We included these considerations in the revision of our manuscript (page 8):

      “…it indicates that friction and propulsion forces, despite being quite variable, correlate strongly. Thus, generating more force comes, inevitably, at the expense of added friction. For lubricated contacts, the friction coefficient is proportional to the thickness of the lubricating layer (Snoeijer et al., 2013 ), and we conjecture active force and drag both increase due to a more intimate contact with the substrate. This supports mechanisms like focal adhesion (Mignot et al., 2007 ) or a modified type-IV pilus (Khayatan et al., 2015 ), which generate forces through contact with extracellular surfaces, as the underlying mechanism of the gliding apparatus of filamentous cyanobacteria: more contacts generate more force, but also closer contact with the substrate, thereby increasing friction to the same extent. Force generation by slime extrusion (Hoiczyk and Baumeister, 1998 ), in contrast, would lead to the opposite behavior: More slime generates more propulsion, but also reduces friction. Besides fundamental fluid-mechanical considerations (Snoeijer et al., 2013 ), this is rationalized by two experimental observations: i. gliding velocity correlates positively with slime layer thickness (Dhahri et al., 2013 ) and ii. motility in slime-secretion deficient mutants is restored upon exogenous addition of polysaccharide slime. Still we emphasize that many other possibilities exist. One could, for instance, postulate a regulation of the generated forces to the experienced friction, to maintain some preferred or saturated velocity.”

      Related to this, the authors use a model with isotropic friction. They claim that this is justified because they are able to fit the cell shapes well with this assumption. How would assuming a non-isotropic drag coefficient affect the shapes? It may be that it does equally well, in which case, the quality of the fits would not be informative about whether or not the drag was isotropic or not.

      The referee raises another very interesting point. Given the typical variability and uncertainty in experimental measurements (cf. error Figure 4 A), a model with a sightly anisotropic friction could be fitted to the observed buckling profiles as well, without significant increase of the mismatch. Yet, strongly anisotropic friction would not be consistent with our observations.

      Importantly, however, we did not conclude on isotropic friction based on the fit quality, but based on a comparison between free gliding and early buckling (Figure 4 D). In early buckling, the dominant motion is in transverse direction, while longitudinal motion is insignificant, due to geometric reasons. Thus, independent of the underlying model, mostly the transverse friction coefficiont is inferred. In contrast, free gliding is a purely longitudinal motion, and thus only the friction coefficient for longitudinal motion can be inferred. These two friction coefficients are compared in Figure 4 D. Still, the scatter of that data would allow to fit a certain anisotropy within the error margins. What we can exclude based on out observation is the case of a strongly anisotropic friction. If there is no ab-initio reason for anisotropy, nor a measurement that indicates it, we prefer to stick with the simplest

      assumption. We carefully chose our wording in the Discussion as “mainly isotropic” rather

      than “isotropic” or “fully isotropic”.

      We added a small statement to the Discussion on page 7 & 8:

      “... Thus we plot f/v over η in Figure 4 D, finding nearly identical values over about two decades. Since f and η are not correlated with v0, this is due to a correlation between f and η. This relation is remarkable in two aspects: On the one hand, it indicates that friction is mainly isotropic. This suggests that friction is governed by an isotropic process like bond friction or lubrication from the slime layer in the contact with the substrate, the latter being consistent with the observation that mutations deficient of slime secretion do not glide but exogenous addition of slime restores motility (Khayatan et al., 2015 ). In contrast, hydrodynamic drag from the surrounding bulk fluid (Man and Kanso, 2019 ), or the internal friction of the gliding apparatus would be expected to generate strongly anisotropic friction. If the latter was dominant, a snapping-like transition into the buckling state would be expected, rather than the continuously growing amplitude that is observed in experiments. On the other hand, it indicates that friction and propulsion forces ...”

      Recommendations for the authors

      The discussion regarding how the findings of this paper imply that cyanobacteria filaments are propelled by adhesion forces rather than slime extrusion should be improved, as this conclusion seems questionable. There appears to be an inconsistency with a buckling force said to be only weakly dependent on the gliding velocity, while its ratio with the velocity correlates with a friction coefficient. Finally, data and source code should be made publicly available.

      In the revised version, we have modified the discussion of the force generating mechanism according to the reviewer suggestions. The perception of inconsistency in the velocity dependence of the buckling force was based on a misunderstanding, as we detailed in our reply to the referee. We revised the corresponding section to make it more clear. Data and source code have been uploaded to a public data repository.

      Reviewer #2 (recommendations for the authors)

      Despite eLife policy, the authors do not provide a Data Availability Statement. For the presented manuscript, data and source code should be provided “via trusted institutional or third-party repositories that adhere to policies that make data discoverable, accessible and usable.” https://elifesciences.org/inside-elife/51839f0a/for-authors-updates- to-elife-s-data-sharing-policies

      Most of the issues in this reviewer’s public review should be easy to correct, so I would strongly support the authors to provide an amended manuscript.

      We added the Data Availability Statement in the amended manuscript.

      References

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      [A2] N. Read, S. Connell, and D. G. Adams. “Nanoscale Visualization of a Fibrillar Array in the Cell Wall of Filamentous Cyanobacteria and Its Implications for Gliding Motility”. In: J. Bacteriol. 189.20 (2007), pp. 7361–7366. doi: 10.1128/jb.00706- 07.

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    1. Author response:

      eLife assessment

      This study provides valuable evidence indicating that Syngap1 regulates the synaptic drive and membrane excitability of parvalbumin- and somatostatin-positive interneurons in the auditory cortex. Since haplo-insufficiency of Syngap1 has been linked to intellectual disabilities without a well-defined underlying cause, the central question of this study is timely. However, the support for the authors' conclusions is incomplete in general and some parts of the experimental evidence are inadequate. Specifically, the manuscript requires further work to properly evaluate the impact on synaptic currents, intrinsic excitability parameters, and morphological features.

      We are happy that the editors found that our study provides valuable evidence and that the central question is timely. We thank the reviewers for their detailed comments and suggestions. Below, we provide a point-by-point answer (in blue) to the specific comments and indicate the changes to the manuscript and the additional experiments we plan to perform to answer these comments.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      The study is designed to assess the role of Syngap1 in regulating the physiology of the MGE-derived PV+ and SST+ interneurons. Syngap1 is associated with some mental health disorders, and PV+ and SST+ cells are the focus of many previous and likely future reports from studies of interneuron biology, highlighting the translational and basic neuroscience relevance of the authors' work.

      Strengths of the study are using well-established electrophysiology methods and the highly controlled conditions of ex vivo brain slice experiments combined with a novel intersectional mouse line, to assess the role of Syngap1 in regulating PV+ and SST+ cell properties. The findings revealed that in the mature auditory cortex, Syngap1 haploinsufficiency decreases both the intrinsic excitability and the excitatory synaptic drive onto PV+ neurons from Layer 4. In contrast, SST+ interneurons were mostly unaffected by Syngap1 haploinsufficiency. Pharmacologically manipulating the activity of voltage-gated potassium channels of the Kv1 family suggested that these channels contributed to the decreased PV+ neuron excitability by Syngap insufficiency. These results therefore suggest that normal Syngap1 expression levels are necessary to produce normal PV+ cell intrinsic properties and excitatory synaptic drive, albeit, perhaps surprisingly, inhibitory synaptic transmission was not affected by Syngap1 haploinsufficiency.

      Since the electrophysiology experiments were performed in the adult auditory cortex, while Syngap1 expression was potentially affected since embryonic stages in the MGE, future studies should address two important points that were not tackled in the present study. First, what is the developmental time window in which Syngap1 insufficiency disrupted PV+ neuron properties? Albeit the embryonic Syngap1 deletion most likely affected PV+ neuron maturation, the properties of Syngap-insufficient PV+ neurons do not resemble those of immature PV+ neurons. Second, whereas the observation that Syngap1 haploinsufficiency affected PV+ neurons in auditory cortex layer 4 suggests auditory processing alterations, MGE-derived PV+ neurons populate every cortical area. Therefore, without information on whether Syngap1 expression levels are cortical area-specific, the data in this study would predict that by regulating PV+ neuron electrophysiology, Syngap1 normally controls circuit function in a wide range of cortical areas, and therefore a range of sensory, motor and cognitive functions. These are relatively minor weaknesses regarding interpretation of the data in the present study that the authors could discuss.

      We agree with the reviewer on the proposed open questions, which we will certainly discuss in the revised manuscript we are preparing. We do have experimental evidence suggesting that Syngap1 mRNA is expressed by PV+ and SST+ neurons in different cortical areas, during early postnatal development and in adulthood; therefore, we agree that it will be important, in future experiments, to tackle the question of when the observed phenotypes arise.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, the authors investigated how partial loss of SynGap1 affects inhibitory neurons derived from the MGE in the auditory cortex, focusing on their synaptic inputs and excitability. While haplo-insufficiently of SynGap1 is known to lead to intellectual disabilities, the underlying mechanisms remain unclear.

      Strengths:

      The questions are novel

      Weaknesses:

      Despite the interesting and novel questions, there are significant concerns regarding the experimental design and data quality, as well as potential misinterpretations of key findings. Consequently, the current manuscript fails to contribute substantially to our understanding of SynGap1 loss mechanisms and may even provoke unnecessary controversies.

      Major issues:

      (1) One major concern is the inconsistency and confusion in the intermediate conclusions drawn from the results. For instance, while the sEPSC data indicates decreased amplitude in PV+ and SOM+ cells in cHet animals, the frequency of events remains unchanged. In contrast, the mEPSC data shows no change in amplitudes in PV+ cells, but a significant decrease in event frequency. The authors conclude that the former observation implies decreased excitability. However, traditionally, such observations on mEPSC parameters are considered indicative of presynaptic mechanisms rather than changes of network activity.‎ The subsequent synapse counting experiments align more closely with the traditional conclusions. This issue can be resolved by rephrasing the text. However, it would remain unexplained why the sEPSC frequency shows no significant difference. If the majority of sEPSC events were indeed mediated by spiking (which is blocked by TTX), the average amplitudes and frequency of mEPSCs should be substantially lower than those of sEPSCs. Yet, they fall within a very similar range, suggesting that most sEPSCs may actually be independent of action potentials. But if that was indeed the case, the changes of purported sEPSC and mEPSC results should have been similar.

      We understand the reviewer’s perspective; indeed, we asked ourselves the very same question regarding why the sEPSC and mEPSC frequency fall within a similar range when we analysed neuron means (bar graphs). We have already recorded sEPSCs followed by mEPSCs from several PV neurons (control and cHet) and are in the process of analyzing the data. We will add this data to the revised version of the manuscript. We will also rephrase the manuscript to present multiple potential interpretations of the data.

      We hope that we have correctly interpreted the reviewer's concern. However, if the question is why sEPSC amplitude but not frequency is affected in cHet vs ctrl then the reviewer’s comment is perhaps based on the assumption that the amplitude and frequency of miniature events should be lower for all events compared to those observed for spontaneous events. However, it's essential to note that changes in the mean amplitude of sEPSCs are primarily driven by alterations in large sEPSCs (>9-10pA, as shown in cumulative probability in Fig. 1b right), with smaller ones being relatively unaffected. Consequently, a reduction in sEPSC amplitude may not necessarily result in a significant decrease in frequency since their values likely remain above the detection threshold of 3 pA. This could explain the lack of a significant decrease in average inter-interval event of sEPSCs (as depicted in Fig. 1b left).

      If the question is whether we should see the same parameters affected by the genetic manipulation in both sEPSC and mEPSC, then another critical consideration is the involvement of the releasable pool in mEPSCs versus sEPSCs. Current knowledge suggests that activity-dependent and -independent release may not necessarily engage the same pool of vesicles or target the same postsynaptic sites. This concept has been extensively explored (reviewed in Kavalali, 2015). Consequently, while we may have traditionally interpreted activity-dependent and -independent data assuming they utilize the same pool, this is no longer accurate. The current discussion in the field revolves around understanding the mechanisms underlying such phenomena. Therefore, comparisons between sEPSCs and mEPSCs may not yield conclusive data but rather speculative interpretations. For a rigorous analysis, particularly in this context involving thousands of events, it is essential to assess these data sets (mEPSCs vs sEPSCs) separately and provide cumulative probability curves. This approach allows for a more comprehensive understanding of the underlying distributions and helps to elucidate any potential differences between the two types of events. We will rephrase the text, and as mentioned above, add additional data, to better reflect these considerations.

      (2) Another significant concern is the quality of synapse counting experiments. The authors attempted to colocalize pre- and postsynaptic markers Vglut1 and PSD95 with PV labelling. However, several issues arise. Firstly, the PV labelling seems confined to soma regions, with no visible dendrites. Given that the perisomatic region only receives a minor fraction of excitatory synapses, this labeling might not accurately represent the input coverage of PV cells. Secondly, the resolution of the images is insufficient to support clear colocalization of the synaptic markers. Thirdly, the staining patterns are peculiar, with PSD95 puncta appearing within regions clearly identified as somas by Vglut1, hinting at possible intracellular signals. Furthermore, PSD95 seems to delineate potential apical dendrites of pyramidal cells passing through the region, yet Vglut1+ partners are absent in these segments, which are expected to be the marker of these synapses here. Additionally, the cumulative density of Vglut2 and Vglut1 puncta exceeds expectations, and it's surprising that subcortical fibers labeled by Vglut2 are comparable in number to intracortical Vglut1+ axon terminals. Ideally, N(Vglut1)+N(Vglut2) should be equal or less than N(PSD95), but this is not the case here. Consequently, these results cannot be considered reliable due to these issues.

      We apologize, as it appears that the images we provided have caused confusion. The selected images represent a single focal plane of a confocal stack, which was visually centered on the PV cell somata. We chose just one confocal plane because we thought it showed more clearly the apposition of presynaptic and postsynaptic immunolabeling around the somata. In the revised version of the manuscript, we will provide higher magnification images, which will clearly show how we identified and selected the region of interest for the quantification of colocalized synaptic markers. In our confocal stacks, we can also identify PV immunolabeled dendrites and colocalized vGlut1/PSD95 or vGlut2/PSD95 puncta on them; but these do not appear in the selected images because, as explained, only one focal plane, centered on the PV cell somata, was shown.

      We acknowledge the reviewer's point that in PV+ cells the majority of excitatory inputs are formed onto dendrites; however, we focused on the somatic excitatory inputs to PV cells, because despite their lower number, they produce much stronger depolarization in PV neurons than dendritic excitatory inputs (Hu et al., 2010; Norenberg et al., 2010). Further, quantification of perisomatic putative excitatory synapses is more reliable since by using PV immunostaining, we can visualize the soma and larger primary dendrites, but smaller, higher order dendrites are not be always detectable. Of note, PV positive somata receive more excitatory synapses than SST positive and pyramidal neuron somata as found by electron microscopy studies in the visual cortex (Hwang et al., 2021; Elabbady et al., 2024).

      Regarding the comment on the density of vGlut1 and vGlut2 puncta, the reason that the numbers appear high and similar between the two markers is because we present normalized data (cHet normalized to their control values for each set of immunolabelling) to clearly represent the differences between genotypes. This information is present in the legends but we apologize for not clearly explaining it the methods section. We will provide a more detailed explanation of our methods in the revised manuscript.

      Briefly, immunostained sections were imaged using a Leica SP8-STED confocal microscope, with a 63x (NA 1.4) at 1024 X 1024, z-step =0.3 μm, stack size of ~15 μm. Images were acquired from the auditory cortex from at least 3 coronal sections per animal. All the confocal parameters were maintained constant throughout the acquisition of an experiment. All images shown in the figures are from a single confocal plane. To quantify the number of vGlut1/PSD95 or vGlut2/PSD95 putative synapses, images were exported as TIFF files and analyzed using Fiji (Image J) software. We first manually outlined the profile of each PV cell soma (identified by PV immunolabeling). At least 4 innervated somata were selected in each confocal stack. We then used a series of custom-made macros in Fiji as previously described (Chehrazi et al, 2023). After subtracting background (rolling value = 10) and Gaussian blur (σ value = 2) filters, the stacks were binarized and vGlut1/PSD95 or vGlut2/PSD95 puncta were independently identified around the perimeter of a targeted soma in the focal plane with the highest soma circumference. Puncta were quantified after filtering particles for size (included between 0-2μm2) and circularity (included between 0-1). Data quantification was done by investigators blind to the genotype, and presented as normalized data over control values for each experiment.

      (3) One observation from the minimal stimulation experiment was concluded by an unsupported statement. Namely, the change in the onset delay cannot be attributed to a deficit in the recruitment of PV+ cells, but it may suggest a change in the excitability of TC axons.

      We agree with the reviewer, please see answer to point below.

      (‎4) The conclusions drawn from the stimulation experiments are also disconnected from the actual data. To make conclusions about TC release, the authors should have tested release probability using established methods, such as paired-pulse changes. Instead, the only observation here is a change in the AMPA components, which remained unexplained.

      We agree with the reviewer and we will perform additional paired-pulse ratio experiments at different intervals. We will rephrase the discussion and our interpretation and potential hypothesis according to the data obtained from this new experiment.

      (5) The sampling rate of CC recordings is insufficient ‎to resolve the temporal properties of the APs. Therefore, the phase-plots cannot be interpreted (e.g. axonal and somatic AP components are not clearly separated), raising questions about how AP threshold and peak were measured. The low sampling rate also masks the real derivative of the AP signals, making them apparently faster.

      We acknowledge that a higher sampling rate could offer a more detailed analysis of the action potential waveform. However, in the context of action potential analysis, it is acceptable to use sampling rates ranging from 10 kHz to 20 kHz (Golomb et al., 2007; Stevens et al., 2021; Zhang et al., 2023), which are considered adequate in the context of the present study. Indeed, our study aims to evaluate "relative" differences in the electrophysiological phenotype when comparing groups following a specific genetic manipulation. A sampling rate of 10 kHz is commonly employed in similar studies, including those conducted by our collaborator and co-author S. Kourrich (e.g., Kourrich and Thomas 2009, Kourrich et al., 2013), as well as others (Russo et al., 2013; Ünal et al., 2020; Chamberland et al., 2023).

      Despite being acquired at a lower sampling rate than potentially preferred by the reviewer, our data clearly demonstrate significant differences between the experimental groups, especially for parameters that are negligibly or not affected by the sampling rate used here (e.g., #spikes/input, RMP, Rin, Cm, Tm, AP amplitude, AP latency, AP rheobase).

      Regarding the phase-plots, we agree that a higher sampling rate would have resulted in smoother curves and more accurate absolute values. However, the differences were sufficiently pronounced to discern the relative variations in action potential waveforms between the experimental groups.

      A related issue is that the Methods section lacks essential details about the recording conditions, such as bridge balance and capacitance neutralization.

      We indeed performed bridge balance and neutralized the capacitance before starting every recording. We will add the information in the methods.

      (6) Interpretation issue: One of the most fundamental measures of cellular excitability, the rheobase, was differentially affected by cHet in BCshort and BCbroad. Yet, the authors concluded that the cHet-induced changes in the two subpopulations are common.

      We are uncertain if we have correctly interpreted the reviewer's comment. While we observed distinct impacts on the rheobase (Fig. 7d and 7i), there seems to be a common effect on the AP threshold (Fig. 7c and 7h), as interpreted and indicated in the final sentence of the results section for Figure 7 (page 12). If our response does not address the reviewer's comment adequately, we would greatly appreciate it if the reviewer could rephrase their feedback.

      (7) Design issue:

      The Kv1 blockade experiments are disconnected from the main manuscript. There is no experiment that shows the causal relationship between changes in DTX and cHet cells. It is only an interesting observation on AP halfwidth and threshold. However, how they affect rheobase, EPSCs, and other topics of the manuscript are not addressed in DTX experiments.

      Furthermore, Kv1 currents were never measured in this work, nor was the channel density tested. Thus, the DTX effects are not necessarily related to changes in PV cells, which can potentially generate controversies.

      While we acknowledge the reviewer's point that Kv1 currents and density weren't specifically tested, an important insight provided by Fig. 5 is the prolonged action potential latency. This delay is significantly influenced by slowly inactivating subthreshold potassium currents, namely the D-type K+ current. It's worth noting that D-type current is primarily mediated by members of the Kv1 family. The literature supports a role for Kv1.1-containing channels in modulating responses to near-threshold stimuli in PV cells (Wang et al., 1994; Goldberg et al., 2008; Zurita et al., 2018). However, we recognize that besides the Kv1 family, other families may also contribute to the observed changes.

      To address this concern, we will revise our interpretation. We will opt for the more accurate term "D-type K+ current" and only speculate about the involved channel family in the discussion. It is not our intention to open unnecessary controversy, but present the data we obtained. We believe this approach and rephrasing the discussion as proposed will prevent unnecessary controversy and instead foster fruitful discussions.

      (8) Writing issues:

      Abstract:

      The auditory system is not mentioned in the abstract.

      One statement in the abstract is unclear‎. What is meant by "targeting Kv1 family of voltage-gated potassium channels was sufficient..."? "Targeting" could refer to altered subcellular targeting of the channels, simple overexpression/deletion in the target cell population, or targeted mutation of the channel, etc. Only the final part of the Results revealed that none of the above, but these channels were blocked selectively.

      We agree with the reviewer and we will rephrase the abstract accordingly.

      Introduction:

      There is a contradiction in the introduction. The second paragraph describes in detail the distinct contribution of PV and SST n‎eurons to auditory processing. But at the end, the authors state that "relatively few reports on PV+ and SST+ cell-intrinsic and synaptic properties in adult auditory cortex". Please be more specific about the unknown properties.

      We agree with the reviewer and we will rephrase more specifically.

      (9) The introduction emphasizes the heterogeneity of PV neurons, which certainly influences the interpretation of the results of the current manuscript. However, the initial experiments did not consider this and handled all PV cell data as a pooled population.

      In the initial experiments, we handled all PV cell data together because we wanted to be rigorous and not make assumptions/biases on the different PV cells, which in later experiments we were to distinguish based on the intrinsic properties alone. We will make this point clear in the revised manuscript.

      (10) The interpretation of the results strongly depends on unpublished work, which potentially provide the physiological and behavioral contexts about the role of GABAergic neurons in SynGap-haploinsufficiency. The authors cite their own unpublished work, without explaining the specific findings and relation to this manuscript.

      We agree with the reviewer and apologize for the lack of clarity. Our unpublished work is in revision right now. We will provide more information and update references in the revised version of this manuscript.

      (11) The introduction of Scholl analysis ‎experiments mentions SOM staining, however, there is no such data about this cell type in the manuscript.

      We apologize for the error, we will change SOM with SST (SOM and SST are two commonly used acronyms for Somatostatin expressing interneurons).

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      This paper compares the synaptic and membrane properties of two main subtypes of interneurons (PV+, SST+) in the auditory cortex of control mice vs mutants with Syngap1 haploinsufficiency. The authors find differences at both levels, although predominantly in PV+ cells. These results suggest that altered PV-interneuron functions in the auditory cortex may contribute to the network dysfunction observed in Syngap1 haploinsufficiency-related intellectual disability. The subject of the work is interesting, and most of the approach is direct and quantitative, which are major strengths. There are also some weaknesses that reduce its impact for a broader field.

      (1) The choice of mice with conditional (rather than global) haploinsufficiency makes the link between the findings and Syngap1 relatively easy to interpret, which is a strength. However, it also remains unclear whether an entire network with the same mutation at a global level (affecting also excitatory neurons) would react similarly.

      The reviewer raises an interesting and pertinent open question which we will address in the discussion of the revised paper.

      (2) There are some (apparent?) inconsistencies between the text and the figures. Although the authors appear to have used a sophisticated statistical analysis, some datasets in the illustrations do not seem to match the statistical results. For example, neither Fig 1g nor Fig 3f (eNMDA) reach significance despite large differences.

      We respectfully disagree, we do not think the text and figures are inconsistent. In the cited example, large apparent difference in mean values does not show significance due to the large variability in the data; further, we did not exclude any data points, because we wanted to be rigorous. In particular, for Fig.1g, statistical analysis shows a significant increase in the inter-mEPSC interval (*p=0.027, LMM) when all events are considered (cumulative probability plots), while there is no significant difference in the inter-mEPSCs interval for inter-cell mean comparison (inset, p=0.354, LMM). Inter-cell mean comparison does not show difference with Mann-Whitney test either (p=0.101, the data are not normally distributed, hence the choice of the Mann-Whitney test). For Fig. 3f (eNMDA), the higher mean value for the cHet versus the control is driven by two data points which are particularly high, while the other data points overlap with the control values. The Mann-Whitney test show also no statistical difference (p=0.174).

      In the manuscript, discussion of the data is based on the results of the LMM analysis, which takes in account both the number of cells and the numbers of mice from which these cells are recorded. We chose this statistical approach because it does not rely on the assumption that cells recorded from same mouse are independent variables. In the supplemental tables, we provided the results of the statistical analysis done with both LMM and the most commonly used Mann Whitney (for not normally distributed) or t-test (for normally distributed), for each data set.

      Also, the legend to Fig 9 indicates the presence of "a significant decrease in AP half-width from cHet in absence or presence of a-DTX", but the bar graph does not seem to show that.

      We apologize for our lack of clarity. In legend 9, we reported the statistical comparisons between 1) cHET mice in absence of a-DTX and control mice and 2) cHET mice in presence of a-DTX and control mice. We will rephrase result description and the legend of the figure to avoid confusion.

      (3) The authors mention that the lack of differences in synaptic current kinetics is evidence against a change in subunit composition. However, in some Figures, for example, 3a, the kinetics of the recorded currents appear dramatically different. It would be important to know and compare the values of the series resistance between control and mutant animals.

      We agree with the reviewer that there appears to be a qualitative difference in eNMDA decay between conditions, although quantified eNMDA decay itself is similar between groups. We have used a cutoff of 15 % for the series resistance (Rs), which is significantly more stringent as compared to the cutoff typically used in electrophysiology, which are for the vast majority between 20 and 30%. To answer this concern, we re-examined the Rs, we compared Rs between groups and found no difference for Rs in eAMPA (13.2±0.5 in WT n=16 cells, 7 mice vs 13.7±0.3 in cHet n=14 cells, 7 mice, p=0.432 LMM) and eNMDA (12.7±0.7 in WT n=6 cells, 3 mice vs 13.8±0.7 in cHet n=6 cells, 5 mice, p=0.231, LMM). Thus, the apparent qualitative difference in eNMDA decay stems from inter-cell variability rather than inter-group differences. Notably, this discrepancy between the trace (Fig. 3a) and the data (Fig. 3f, right) is largely due to inter-cell variability, particularly in eNMDA, where a higher but non-significant decay rate is driven by a couple of very high values (Fig. 3f, right). In the revised manuscript, we will show traces that better represent our findings.

      (4) A significant unexplained variability is present in several datasets. For example, the AP threshold for PV+ includes points between -50-40 mV, but also values at around -20/-15 mV, which seems too depolarized to generate healthy APs (Fig 5c, Fig7c).

      We acknowledge the variability in AP threshold data, with some APs appearing too depolarized to generate healthy spikes. However, we meticulously examined each AP that spiked at these depolarized thresholds and found that other intrinsic properties (such as Rin, Vrest, AP overshoot, etc.) all indicate that these cells are healthy. Therefore, to maintain objectivity and provide unbiased data to the community, we opted to include them in our analysis. It's worth noting that similar variability has been observed in other studies (Bengtsson Gonzales et al., 2020; Bertero et al., 2020).

      Further, we conducted a significance test on AP threshold excluding these potentially unhealthy cells and found that the significant differences persist. After removing two outliers from the cHet group with values of -16.5 and 20.6 mV, we obtain: -42.6±1.01 mV in control, n=33, 15 mice vs -36.2±1.1 mV in cHet, n=38 cells, 17 mice, ***p<0.001, LMM. Thus, whether these cells are included or excluded, our interpretations and conclusions remain unchanged.

      We would like to clarify that these data have not been corrected with the junction potential. We will add this info in the revised version.

      (5) I am unclear as to how the authors quantified colocalization between VGluts and PSD95 at the low magnification shown in Supplementary Figure 2.

      We apologize for our lack of clarity. Although the analysis was done at high resolution, the figures were focused on showing multiple PV somata receiving excitatory inputs. We will add higher magnification figures and more detailed information in the methods of the revised version. Please also see our response to reviewer #2.

      (6) The authors claim that "cHet SST+ cells showed no significant changes in active and passive membrane properties", but this claim would seem to be directly refused by the data of Fig 8f. In the absence of changes in either active or passive membrane properties shouldn't the current/#AP plot remain unchanged?

      While we acknowledge the theoretical expectation that changes in intrinsic parameters should correlate with alterations in neuronal firing, the absence of differences in the parameters analyzed in this study should not overshadow the clear and significant decrease in firing rate observed in cHet SST+ cells. This decrease serves as a compelling indication of reduced intrinsic neuronal excitability. It's certainly possible that other intrinsic factors, not assessed in this study, may have contributed to this effect. However, exploring these mechanisms is beyond the scope of our current investigation. We will rephrase the discussion and add this limitation of our study in the revised version.

      (7) The plots used for the determination of AP threshold (Figs 5c, 7c, and 7h) suggest that the frequency of acquisition of current-clamp signals may not have been sufficient, this value is not included in the Methods section.

      This study utilized a sampling rate of 10 kHz, which is a standard rate for action potential analysis in the present context. We will describe more extensively the technical details in the method section of the revised manuscript we are preparing. While we acknowledge that a higher sampling rate could have enhanced the clarity of the phase plot, our recording conditions, as detailed in our response to Rev#2/comment#5, were suitable for the objectives of this study.

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    1. Note: This response was posted by the corresponding author to Review Commons. The content has not been altered except for formatting.

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      Reply to the reviewers

      General response of the authors to the editor and the reviewers:

      We thank the reviewers for their feedback, input and questions as these have helped us to (hopefully) improve the manuscript. We have rewritten several sections of the manuscript, moved methodological descriptions from the Results to the Methods section, and added imaging data for two cytoskeletal proteins, Shot and Cofilin/Twinstar, which confirm the predicted differential DV expression. Because the changes to the text were extensive, we did not mark them by track changes (the manuscript would have been illegible), but would be happy to provide an additional version that includes the tracked changes.

      We provide below the point-by-point response to each question and comment made by the reviewers. Our text is in blue.



      __Reviewer #1 __

      __Evidence, reproducibility and clarity __

      __Summary __

      This manuscript investigated changes in the proteome and phosphoproteome during dorsovental axis specification in the Drosophila embryo. To model the three regions in the embryo that are relevant for DV axis development, the authors used specific mutations to enrich for a single type of cells (ventral, lateral, or dorsal). The detected proteins and phosphopeptides were clustered according to the region of expression. There were differences between the protein and corresponding phosphopeptide abundance, suggesting that phosphorylation is a regulatory modification in DV axis establishment. Two different mutations that both result in a ventralized phenotype were found to change marker protein expression in different ways. Using inhibition of microtubule polymerization, this study also investigated the role of microtubules in epithelial folding.

      __Major comments __

      1. Generally, there is a lack of significance testing throughout the manuscript. Simply reporting fold changes can be misleading, if these changes are not significant. Examples:

      2. Rigor of the proteomics evidence showing changes for the expected markers is insufficient because no statistical evaluation is provided. Specifically, in Fig. 1D and Suppl Fig 2: are the fold changes statistically significant?

      3. Data in Fig. 4F, 5F need to be assessed for significance. There are other instances in the manuscript where significance should be tested.

      We did ANOVA testing for all proteome and phosphoproteome data, and the outcome of these analyses is reported in Supplementary Tables 2 and 3. We have added references to significance throughout, wherever possible and relevant and have included a table that summarizes all p values for all comparisons in all of the figures (Supplementary Table 2). However, note that we do our clustering independent of statistical significance, i.e., we include all values, as we explain in the manuscript.

      It is difficult to see the value of the obtained dataset for the community, in part because the data are analyzed by a linear model and cluster assignment developed by the authors, which is a somewhat arbitrary representation. Perhaps the authors could explain how their data could be used by other researchers, and maybe even develop an accessible portal for interacting with the data.

      We do provide the entire set of data in a formatted Excel Table as Supplementary Tables 3 and 4, which contain common pairwise comparisons and ANOVA tests that allow a researcher without a strong proteomics background to explore the data, and we also provide the raw proteomics datasets deposited in PRIDE, so any interested colleague can re-analyse them in the manner that suits their purposes best.

      We analysed the data in the way we did because it takes account of the knowledge from genetics that we have of all these cell populations. This also allowed us to include the important set of proteins and phosphosites that are completely absent from all but one mutant genotype, and would therefore have dropped out of the statistical analyses.

      For example, what does it mean biologically that a protein is a member of a specific cluster shown in Fig. 3C? Is there a predictive value in such an assignment, and how does it relate to the main question of DV axis regulation? An example of a novel insight obtained for specific protein(s) would be useful to illustrate the utility of this analysis.

      The clusters represent groups of proteins that are present at higher or lower abundance in subsets of cell populations. So, for example, being present in cluster 5 means (Fig. 3C) that this protein is predicted to be more abundant in the mesoderm than elsewhere (which includes being detected ONLY in the mesoderm, like Snail). This clustering therefore is the way for us to find new proteins that conform to these groups.

      We provide here the immunostainings of two cytoskeleton-associated proteins that our proteomic analyses predicted to be more abundant in the ectoderm (Cluster 6: dorsal+lateral):

      • The actin-microtubule crosslinker Short-stop (Shot), which is seen to be reduced in the mesoderm.
      • The actin-severing protein Cofilin/Twinstar, which was also found downregulated in the mesoderm in the work cited in Ref.:10 Gong L. et al., Development (2004). The staining shows that cofilin-GFP is abundant in the entire subapical region of ectodermal cells, but strongly reduced in ventral furrow cells, where it is only retained in a few apical membrane blebs. These proteins are targets for functional analyses in follow-up work.

      [Imaging Data for Reviewers]

      Figure: Physical cross-sections of fixed embryos showing the enrichment of proteins in the ectoderm (cluster 6: DL). Dorsal is top, ventral is bottom. Scale bar: 50 um Top panel: Staining for short-stop (shot; cyan / grayscale) and snail (yellow) in embryos expressing gap43-mCherry. Bottom panel: staining for discs large (dlg, magenta) and GFP (green / grayscale) in embryos expressing cofilin-GFP (Kyoto protein trap for Cofilin/Twinstar).

      Overall, at present the study appears to have limited novelty and mechanistic insight. The data generally align with prior expectations, but it is unclear how this work advances the field.

      We were reassured that the data align with previous studies, but as we state in the text, they go well beyond these valuable and important studies in several dimensions. We had made the following assumptions:

      1. DV patterning mutants recapitulate biological qualities of DV cell populations and the differential expression of DV fate determinants, as confirmed in Fig. 1 and Fig. 3D.
      2. The differential regulation of the proteomes and phosphoproteomes across DV patterning mutants recapitulates the abundances of proteins and phosphosites within DV cell populations of a wildtype embryo. We confirmed this in Fig. 3A and Fig. 5C with the implementation of a linear model for the abundances of detected proteins and phosphosites. The resulting analysis revealed new avenues for future functional studies, as intended. Most of the work on cell shape regulation at the gastrulation stage has focused on actomyosin and a subset of cell adhesion molecules. We have identified networks of proteins and phosphoproteins that may also control gastrulation (Fig. 6 and Supplementary Fig. 5), including microtubules, which were significantly enriched in networks of phosphoproteins (Fig. 7 and Supplementary Fig. 6).

      For example, the observed differences between marker proteins in Toll10B vs. spn27A data seem to confirm previous suggestions that spn27A has a stronger ventralizing effect.

      This suggestion was made by colleagues who had unpublished observations on a limited number of gene expression patterns that supported their contention. A correlation analysis (see figure below) of our results now shows that proteins with a restricted dorso-ventral pattern change more in spn27Aex mutants than in Toll10B. If we look at the known mesodermal genes such as Snail, Twist, Mdr49 and CG4500 we find them at higher abundance in spn27Aex than Toll10B , while the ectodermal genes Egr, Zen, Dtg, Tsg, Bsk, and Ptr are reduced more strongly in spn27Aex than in Toll10B. This takes the prior observation of a stronger ventralization of spn27Aex from an anecdotal to a systematic analysis.

      [Correlation analyses available for reviewers]

      Cross-correlation between the fold changes (FCs) in Toll10B/WT vs. spn27Aex/WT for all proteins detected in wildtype, Toll10B and spn27Aex. Each dot is a protein. The green line is the 'identity' function (slope = 1) that would be expected if the FCs for each protein in both ventralized mutants were exactly the same. A set of proteins with restricted dorso-ventral distribution are highlighted in yellow: mesodermal (ventral) and blue: ectodermal (dorsal).

      The role of microtubules in epithelial folding in the embryo has also been demonstrated before.

         The role of microtubules in epithelial folding in the *Drosophila *embryo has indeed been examined in three previous studies that studied dorsal fold formation (Ref.: 35, Takeda et al. NCB 2018), ventral furrow formation (VFF, Ref.: 36, Ko et al. JCB 2019), and salivary gland invagination (Booth et al. Dev Cell 2014). These data reveal diverse and non-conservative functional requirements, ranging from acto-myosin contractility during apical constriction (Booth et al. 2014), force transmission and repair of the supracellular contractile network (but not apical constriction per se, Ko et al 2019), to the generation of expansile forces during cell shape homeostasis (Takeda et al 2018). In light of this potentially broad functional spectrum, we sought to compare three epithelial folds that form within the context of gastrulation: ventral furrow, cephalic furrow and dorsal folds. We confirmed that the initiation of VFF was normal, but the final invagination failed, as per Ko et al. 2019, while dorsal fold initiation did not occur (extending conclusions from Takeda et al 2018). In contrast, cephalic furrow formation, though delayed, did not require microtubules. We also revealed a novel commonality of MT function. Specifically, prior to the initiation of all three epithelial folds, proper nuclear positioning requires MTs. We additionally discovered novel membrane abnormalities in two distinct types of blebs during ventral furrow and dorsal fold formation, respectively. Thus, our data provide insights into the roles of microtubules during epithelial folding that go beyond prior work.
      

      The shown phosphorylation changes (if they are significant) for Toll and Cactus are difficult to explain. In Suppl Fig 2B, E: why is Toll more phosphorylated in the lateralized than in ventralized embryos? (the provided reference 20 does not seem to clarify this).

         These changes are indeed significant (Toll-S871: Vtl vs. WT p = 0.01 , Vsp vs. WT p = 0.002; Cactus-S463: Vsp vs WT p = 0.03); see Supplementary Figure 2B and Supplementary Table 2).
      
         We have corrected Ref. 20 (Shen B. and Manley J.L., Development 1998). Ref. 20 only shows that Tl is phosphorylated by Pelle (Ref 20: Fig. 6A), although neither the exact position of Tl phosphosite(s) nor the function of Tl phosphorylation were explored in this article. A hallmark of Toll Like Receptor (TLR) regulation is these receptors are subject to tyrosine phosphorylation, which has been widely connected to the regulation of the binding of adaptor proteins to the cytoplasmic tail of TLRs. Both our finding of Serine phosphorylation in Tl, and the differential phosphorylation across cell populations is new, but since we do not know what this particular Serine phosphorylation site does in TLRs in general, we cannot speculate on the meaning of it occurring more in lateral than in ventral cells. In Ref. 20, the authors speculate that Tl phosphorylation by Pelle regulates the association between Tl and Pelle, which then enables Dorsal translocation to the nucleus. It might also be part of a feedback regulation loop, but this is entirely speculative.
      

      Also, certain Cactus phosphorylations appear higher in dorsalized and ventralized embryos, but not in lateralized embryos. Are such changes expected and do they make sense biologically? It is unclear why these phosphorylation data are used to validate the success of the approach.

         The three Cactus phosphosites S463, S467 and S468 were identified and characterised in the work cited in Ref. 19 (Liu Z.P. et al., Genes and Development, 1997), and we used these sites to validate that our approach was sensitive enough to detect known phosphosites in proteins that act on the dorso-ventral patterning pathway specifically at the point of gastrulation (Stage 6 of embryonic development). We also reported in this manuscript the detection of known phosphosites within the Rho-pathway (Fig. 5E,F, Myosin Light Chain: T21, S22; Cofilin: S3).
      
         Liu Z.P. et al. reported that these three sites map to the Cactus PEST domain, which is required for Cactus degradation in the mesoderm (Belvin M. et al, Genes and Development 1995).  Liu Z.P. et al. also showed that mutating these phosphosites impairs Cactus turnover without affecting the ability of Cactus to bind Dorsal. We can only speculate that the differential phosphorylation across dorso-ventral embryonic cell populations is associated with the regulation of Cactus turnover. Consistent with this, we find Cactus downregulated 1.5 log2 fold in ventralized embryos derived from *spn27Aex/def* mothers. Furthermore, there are a number of signalling pathways that act both in the dorsal and the ventral-lateral domain (e.g., rhomboid/EGF), so it is not surprising to find modifications that are shared by these regions.
      

      The rationale to use a diffusion algorithm for data analysis is not clear. How would the analysis differ if diffusion was not used?

      Phosphoproteomics data are often sparse and noisy for a number of reasons (technical; low abundance of phosphorylated peptides compared to other peptides in the cell; biological: not all phosphosites are functional). Network diffusion is a common way used for various data types to boost the signal-to-noise ratio. For example, if from a list of 10 phosphosites, 5 all fall in the same network region or process, and the rest are randomly distributed in the network, chances are that the first region is more representative of the regulated process in that dataset. Using network propagation, the signal coming from the first 5 phosphosites would give a higher score to that network region, marking it as the predominant signal. Our specific implementation, which uses the semantic similarity between nodes to model the edges in the network, further boosts the functional signal by preferentially including nodes that have a higher functional similarity to the initial phosphosites. Our approach therefore allows us to identify the processes that are predominantly ‘active’ in our dataset. We refer the reviewer to our recent preprint for more evidence that this strategy boosts the signal-to-noise ratio in phosphoproteomic datasets and further prioritises more functional phosphosites (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2023.08.07.552249v1). If this approach was not used and we based the identification of relevant processes only on the list of phosphosites, we would have acquired more spurious terms in our functional enrichment analysis. The above preprint also shows that different methods such as the Prize Collecting Steiner Forest algorithm perform worse for phosphoproteomics data.

      Generally, the discussion of enriched GO categories presented in Fig. 6 is not rigorous, and it is unclear what biological insight is provided by this figure, probably because the categories are extremely diverse and not clustered in a meaningful way. Despite stating that the work on microtubules came out as a result of proteomic analysis, there is no connection between proteomic data (e.g., data shown in Fig. 6) and microtubule analysis in Fig. 7.

         The connection is between the __phosphoproteomic__ data and the microtubules. The reviewer is correct about the fact there is little connection at the proteomic level with microtubules. Only the diffused network analyses performed on the phosphoproteomic data pointed in this direction. We have improved the writing about this point.
      

      The Discussion section touches on areas of differential protein degradation and mRNA regulation; however, these data are not presented in Results or Figures and so it is difficult to assess the relevance of this analysis.

           We present these data in Figure 6A,B. The network analyses of the clusters showed significant enrichment of cellular component terms that are connected with protein turnover and mRNA regulation. We have added a reference to figure 6 in the Discussion for clarity.
      

      There is insufficient citation of prior literature throughout the manuscript: many statements are lacking proper references.

      We have corrected the mistakes and added missing references.

      Proteomics data should be deposited into a standard repository that is a member of ProtomeXchange Consortium, such as PRIDE, etc.

      All proteomics and phosphoproteomics data have been uploaded to PRIDE:

      The raw files for the proteomics and phosphoproteomics experiments were deposited in PRIDE under separate identifiers:

      Proteome: Identifier PXD046050 (Reviewer account details: reviewer_pxd046050@ebi.ac.uk, pw: coJ9otiX).

      Phosphoproteome: Identifier PXD046192 (Reviewer account details: reviewer_pxd046192@ebi.ac.uk, pw: nvkbwClp).

      We have included a statement of raw data availability in the revised version of the manuscript with the PRIDE access information.

      __Minor comments __

      The text has several typos and should be proof-read, and references to figures and tables should be checked, as some of these are not correct.

      We have corrected typos, references to figures and tables in the revised version of the manuscript.

      The genotypes for the mutations used in this study should be accompanied by citation describing identification of these mutations and the resulting phenotypes. It would also be helpful to describe the nature of these alleles (molecular lesion, gain vs loss of function, etc.). Some of this information is included in the Discussion, but it would be useful for the reader to learn this early on, when the chosen genotypes are presented.

      All this information is and was provided in the methods section and in Table 1, including stock numbers and sources of the stocks. Please see 'Methods, Drosophila genetics and embryo collections'.

      2G,H - the X axis should be clearly labeled as logarithmic.

      We introduced the log2 label in the X-axis of Fig. 2G,H and any other panel in which this was not expressly made clear.

      In Fig. 2G the locations of lines showing fold changes for Twist and Snail seem incorrect. In Fig. 2H the dotted line does not appear to correspond to 50% of the number of phosphosites.

      We apologise for these errors, both have been corrected in the revised version of the manuscript.

      5D can be improved by adding letters for the coloured clusters.

      We have labelled the clusters in Fig. 3B and Fig. 5D. to ease the identification of biologically relevant clusters.

      It is unclear if any specific additional insight was obtained using SILAC, the authors may want to discuss this approach and outcomes more.

      SILAC has been widely used to deal with the inherent variability of proteomic analyses by introducing a standard that is metabolically labelled, in our case, w1118 flies fed with SILAC yeast were used as the standard. Because the inherent variability is larger in phosphoproteomic experiments (because protein identification is based on phosphorylated peptides only, see Methods), we used SILAC labelling only in the phosphoproteomic experiment.



      __Reviewer #2 __

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity


      The present article by Gomez et al describes a deep proteomics analysis of the proteome and phosphoproteome of embryos mutated for key genes involved in the dorso-ventral axis in Drosophila melanogaster. Overall, this is a nice article showing new insight in this development process. The results are mainly descriptive, yet identifies potential new players in the definition of the dorso-ventral axis.

      The generation of mutants for genes found up- or down-regulated in each mutant strain would be a significant addition to this manuscript. But I think in its current form the data brings enough new information on this particular developmental step and would be of interest for the fly community.

      My main concern is that the manuscript can be difficult to read and overly convoluted at times even for experts in the field. I would suggest the author move some methodological explanations from the results to the methods section to further detail the goals of some results sections.

      We have followed these suggestions and hope we have made the manuscript more easily readable.

      As an example, the goal of part 3) « A linear model for quantitative interpretation of the proteomes » is not clear to me. Are the authors comparing the abundance of a protein in the WT versus a theoretical WT in order to determine which fractions of mesoderm, lateral ectoderm and dorsal region are actually present in the WT? (...)

      Yes, in part, but the main purpose was to compare how well the theoretical WT, as ‘reconstituted’ from the mutants, corresponds to the observed actual WT (for which we have at least approximate values).

      The question that we faced when we started these calculations was: what is the ‘correct’ fraction (or proportion) we should use to weight each protein (or phosphosite) measurement in the mutants. Theoretically, these values should be those that result in the best match between the theoretical WT and the measured WT abundance of each protein (or phosphosite). We knew from actual measurements only the mesodermal fraction, which was determined to be ~20% of the cross-sectional area (Ref. 21: Rahimi, N., et al Dev. Cell. 2016). The neuroectoderm and ectoderm fractions were estimated to be approx. 40% each (Ref.: 22, Jazwinska, A et al. Development 1999), but we lacked an exact number. The systematic exploration of these proportions led us to conclude that indeed both the neuroectoderm and ectoderm fractions should be around 40% each, provided the mesoderm is fixed at 20%. Thus, we used these fractions: D: 0.4 L: 0.4 V: 0.2 for our follow-up analyses.

      (...) Or are they using it as a reference to obtain a fold change for the different proteins quantified (in this case why not use the WT?)?

      yes, again, in part: as a reference for the EXPECTED fold changes, as would be predicted from the WT.

      Since we have moved some of the details of this approach from the main text to the methods section, we have also revised the remaining text and hope it is now clearer.

      The proteomics data must be deposited in a public repository. I did not see it stated in the methods section.

      All proteomics and phosphoproteomics data have been uploaded to PRIDE; see further comments above in response 13.

      The version of the uniprot database is quite old (2016) so is the version of MaxQuant used in this study. Any reasons for that (other than that the analysis was performed in 2016)?

      That is indeed the reason.

      The data were run on different MS platforms, how did the authors account for the variability in MS signals? What samples were run on which MS platform? Were the WT embryos ran on both?

      We measured three replicates, and all five genotypes (four mutant genotypes plus wildtype) for each of the replicates were measured on the same instrument. Specifically, for the whole proteome analyses, replicate one and three of all genotypes were measured on the QExactive Plus instrument and replicate 2 of all genotypes were measured on a QExactive HF-x instrument, as were the phosphoproteomes. So, indeed, the wildtype was measured on both instruments. We thus did not observe instrument-specific bias in the PCA analysis for the proteome data.

      We have added this in more detail to the method section:

      “Samples of replicate one and three were measured on the QE-Plus system and replicate two was measured on the QE-HF-x system.

      For phosphoproteome analysis, (…) Samples of all three replicates were measured on the QEx-HFx system. We added trial samples measured on the QEx-Plus system to increase the phosphosite coverage using the match between runs algorithm.”

      In the methods section the authors mention that a high-pH reverse phase fractionation was performed? How many fractions of High-pH reverse phase separation were injected per sample? Was this separation performed for all the samples?

      We have adjusted the Methods section regarding the high-pH fractionation by adding the following sentence: “Fractions were collected every 60s in a 96 well plate over 60 min gradient time collecting a total number of 8 fractions per sample.“

      Why did the authors used label-free (proteome) and SILAC (phosphoproteome) quantification methods?

      See our response to reviewer #1, point 19.

      Why is the threshold based on the Q3 of the standard deviation (if I got it right) ? Couldn't they be calculated directly on the distribution of the ratio?

      We could also have done it that way.

      However, we had wanted also to take into account the variation between the replicates, i.e., the quality of the individual measurements, and we therefore devised the procedure we used, by which the standard deviation of the individual technical replicates enters the calculation with the ratio of the averages, the variability between replicates would have been ignored and we considered it more appropriate to take the more conservative approach. But as it turns out, the cut-off would have ended up being very similar had we calculated it the way the referee suggests,

      Page 6: The supplementary figure 2E refers to the protein Cactus and the text to CKII, please modify one or the other to avoid any confusion. Page 7: A dot is missing at the end of the following sentence « if used with the assumed weightings for the populations »

      We have corrected these sentences.

      Page 19: Replace SppedVac by SpeedVac

      We have corrected the error in the manuscript and thank the reviewer for the detailed inspection.

      Page 8: why not using a z-score with thresholds directly instead of a -1/+1/0 system and then using the z-score?

      Because we wanted to compare the relative changes over wt between mutants (i.e. the similarity between 1 0 0 and 0 -1 -1) rather than the relationship of their absolute values to the wt, and to assign proteins with similar relationships into the same dorso-ventral regulation categories.

      The text states this (previously in main text, now in methods):

      “The reason for this is that this method takes into account that value sets that represent similar relative differences between the mutants (for example, 0 -1 -1 vs. 1 -1 -1 or 1, 0, 0) are biologically more similar to each other than the raw values indicate. The z-scores for all of these cases would be 1.1547 -0.5774 -0.5774.”

      In the abstract it is mentioned that 3,399 proteins are differentially regulated at the proteome level versus 1,699 significantly deregulated at a 10 % FDR in the main text (page 5). Is there a reason for this discrepancy? Same comment for the phosphopeptides.

      But we now also see the need to better clarify this point, and we have edited the text accordingly.

      The second number refers to those proteins that show statistically significant changes based on ANOVA (1699 proteins).

      The first number (3398; note that the number 3399 in the abstract was a typo, now corrected) includes all proteins that were detected in at least 1 replicate in the wildtype (5883/6111) minus those that do not change between the genotypes (2156/6111) and minus all those that change in the same direction in all mutants (329).

      This includes proteins that are automatically excluded from ANOVA, i.e., those that are detected only in the wildtype (35/6111 proteins) or in two or more genotypes but only in 1 technical replicate ANOVA negative ones.

      As we stated, we did this because it “allows us to include the important group of proteins that show a ‘perfect’ behaviour, like dMyc and WntD, in that they are undetectable in the mutants that correspond to the regions in the normal embryo where these genes are not expressed.”. This 'regulated' set consists of those proteins that exceed the |0.5| fold threshold.

      Reviewer #3 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      This review is a list of many individual critiques. It is unclear what the expertise of the reviewer is (they do not provide the answer to that question in the review form, unlike the other referees), but several of the criticisms are unfounded. Three of the PIs of this work are researchers with extensive experience in Drosophila genetics and early development but are nevertheless confounded by some of the comments made by this referee.

      The mutants do not completely "flatten" the embryos.

      We do not claim that they do. Nor are the ventral, lateral and dorsal regions in the normal embryo completely ‘flat’ or homogeneous. But the mutants are good representations of the major fates in these regions, as a wealth of published literature from the last 30 years indicates.

      For instance, Tl10B broadly expresses snail but also expresses sog in the head. (i.e. Fig 1B - sog and sna expression in Figure 1B mutant backgrounds looks odd.) The sog expression likely relates to a deficiency specific effect.

      This ‘sensitive’ area is well known also from other genetic conditions – e.g. partial loss of dorsal and indeed in Spn27A mutants. It is therefore not specific to the Tl10B deficiency but says something about gene interactions in this region. Thus, this cannot be a deficiency-specific effect.

      Is sog seen in a Toll10B/+ mutant background?

      Yes, it is, and more frequently than in Toll10B/Def.

      The deficiency used for the Toll10B experiment is Df(3R)ro80b which is quite large and deletes 14+ genes.

      True. However, this does not matter: the mothers are heterozygous, so the genes are not missing, they are present in one wildtype copy! And these mothers are then mated with wildtype fathers, so if expression of these genes were needed in the embryo, then there would be another full wt copy of each. We appreciate that maternal effect genetics can be difficult to follow, but this is all work that has been done a long time ago, and is not the point of this paper at all.

      The deficiency used for the spn27A experiment is Df(2L)BSC7 and removes 4+ genes.

      Again, this would only matter if these were maternal effect genes that were needed for the establishment of the dorso-ventral axis, and they are not.

      Furthermore, the gd9 allele may not be a complete loss of function.

      It may not be – but what matters is the well characterized phenotype which has been shown to represent dorsal cell types.

      It is possible that the Toll10B allele picked up an accessory dominant mutation.

      This again would only matter if it was a dominant AND maternal effect mutation that affects the DV axis in the embryo – and there are very few of these known. And nothing in our analysis of these embryos, with which we have been working on and off over 3 decades and therefore know very well, indicates that our current stock is any different from those we have seen in the past.

      Unfortunately, these mutant phenotypes that affect DV and AP patterning mean that conclusions cannot be made that changes in protein relate to DV patterning.

      We simply do not understand this statement.

      Why do the mutant phenotypes (gene expression patterns and cell morphologies representative of the ventral, lateral and dorsal cell populations) not mean that the proteins downstream of the fate changes correspond to the cell fates?

      To get a better view of the ventralized phenotype, the authors should repeat the analysis by ectopically expressing Toll10B using the Gal4-UAS system; UAS-activate Toll transgenes are available.

      All Gal4-UAS maternal drivers, even the best and the strongest, result in mosaic expression. Our lab has extensive experience with this system and we know that, for example, the homogeneous, high levels of twist or snail expression that we see in spn or Tl10B embryos cannot be achieved with GAL4.

      Fig 1C-F - due to combined AP and DV effects seen with ventralizing mutants, it is important that the authors confirm that cross-section views relate to the middle to posterior of the embryo.

      We confirm this.

      Costaining with anti-Kr or -Caudal would help to ensure they are assaying the correct AP domain for pure DV effects.

      In our view, this is an unnecessary experiment. I know where the middle of the embryo is. If the reviewer does not believe when we say we are showing a section from the middle, they can see that the sections are not from the end region by, for example, the cell number, and the section angles.

      The authors refer to reference [60] for stages but there is no information regarding morphological criteria used under the microscope to stage the embryos.

      We have now added more detail in the methods section:

      Briefly. using a Zeiss binocular, the embryos were individually hand-selected on wet agar which made the embryos semi-transparent, allowing the assessment of a range of morphological features, of which at least some are visible in each of the mutants:

      • Yolk distance to embryonic surface: distinguishes between early (stage 5a) and late cellularisation (stage 5b).
      • Yolk distribution within the embryo: identification of large embryonic movements of the germ band (e.g.: Initiation of germ band extension, marking the initiation of stage 7). In DV patterning mutants this is seen as twisting of the embryo.
      • Change in the outline of the dorsal-posterior region: polar cell movement from the posterior most region of the embryo (stage 5a/b) to stage 6a/b.
      • Formation of the cephalic and dorsal folds: identification of stage 6 (initiation of cephalic fold) and stage 7 (dorsal folds). The combined use of these morphological criteria, together with the synchronised egg collections allows accurate staging of wild type and mutant embryos.

      Furthermore, what is stage 6a,b? Stage 6 is not typically divided in two stages nor is it clear what a,b relate to.

      We used a generally accepted standard for staging embryos: Campos-Ortega J.A. and Hartenstein V. ‘The embryonic development of Drosophila melanogaster’ book (ref. Nº 60). In this book, they describe the morphological criteria that can be followed in living embryos for proper staging. These stages, with these exact names, are shown on pages 11 and 12 of the 1997 edition (2nd edition).

      According to the published timetable of Drosophila development by Foe et al. 1993 (not cited), gastrulating embryos are 200 min or 3 hr 20'. It's unclear if this is the stage that was assayed.

      Foe is a beautiful paper, but we did not cite it because the commonly used nomenclature predates it (Campos-Ortega and Hartenstein 1985).

      In addition, timing depends on temperature whereas morphological criteria do not.

      The mutant embryos likely develop at different rates relative to wildtype. It seems important to provide details about the staging of embryos. If the mutant embryos take longer to gastrulate, for instance, might that also be a factor that impacts the proteome.

      As described above, we used a combination of criteria to accurately judge staging. DV patterning embryos could in principle develop faster or slower than wildtype. We performed synchronised egg collections (Methods: Embryo collections) for 15’. Therefore, any developmental timing defect would have become evident based on a difference in the number of embryos entering stage 6 and 7 at the point of visual inspection of the collections. This was not the case.

      How many replicates for each genotype? In the text it states, "replicates from the same genotype clustered together (Fig. 2E)....." Similar vague reference for phosphoproteome follows (Fig 2F). It is then stated that it was impossible to determine the experimental source for this variation. Could it relate to differences in timing of samples?

      We had given the numbers of replicates in the figure legend but have now also included them in the methods section for more clarity. We did 3 replicates for each genotype in each experiment, with the exception of gd9 and spn27aex mutants, for which we did 2 biological replicates each with 3 replicates, making a total of 6 replicates for these genotypes in the proteomic experiment. We have included an additional clarification in figure legend 2. The number of replicates per genotype per experiment can also be seen from the correlation matrices shown Fig. 2E and 2F, in which the replicates are shown individually. The measurements for each replicate for each genotype within each experiment were reported in Supplementary Tables 2 and 3, 'description' tabs of the worksheets.

      The lengthy discussion of ratio estimation on page 7 should be streamlined and made more clear. Are the authors throwing out data and only keeping samples that support their model? This seems like overfitting - if I am understanding correctly, you are selecting the samples that support the "majority of proteins fit the linear model" but this isn't necessarily the case.

      No, this is a misunderstanding. We do not select data.

      We have rephrased this section, but to explain here briefly: We do not select any samples, we state that the majority of proteins fit the theoretical model (and that is not even surprising, because any protein that does not change across the populations will automatically fit the model). We then discuss why some might NOT fit the model. The model doesn’t need to be supported, it simply is a calculation that allows us to stratify the data.

      They call this the 'correct' manner (see section 4 page 7) but it seems like a working model and presumptuous to imply that it is the correct way.

      We explained in the text why we refer to this as ‘correct’. It is a matter or definition, not presumption, and we even used quotes to be clear about this. ’Correct’ indicates a combination of values that is consistent with the biological model that the DV mutants are good representations of the corresponding embryonic cell populations in a wild type embryo. We do not in any way ‘throw out’ other data, we just note they don’t fit that model. Clarifications on the concept for the model have been added in various places in the text

      Figure 3C - it is confusing to use a circular diagram to show DV inferred position of the 14 clusters as their position on the circle does not correspond to where they are expressed on the embryos. Perhaps a stacked bar graph for 6 different domains would be better.

      This figure does not show positions of clusters. It is simply a pie chart, as is stated in the figure legend and as can be seen by the numbers and the corresponding sizes of the sectors. We have tried a stacked representation (shown below), but find it no clearer and have therefore stuck with this very common way of representing quantities, and in particular, proportions. We use the same representation with the same colour schemes in all subsequent figures, so proportions can be compared across figures.

      It is very hard to follow the text on page 9.

      We have rephrased this section

      It is very hard to see the gene expression patterns shown in Fig 4A with the color scheme/scale used.

      We appreciate this colour scheme does not correspond to the commonly used dark colour on a light background which would mimic histochemistry to show gene expression. The ‘inferno’ colour scheme was used because it allows better quantitative comparisons between subtly different patterns. However, to make these figures more similar to the types of in situ hybridisations that embryologists are used to seeing, we now use a different representation.

      In general, Figure 4 is uninterpretable - in particular, what do the numbers mean on the greyscale circle plots in panel D?

      We apologize for having failed to explicitly include the explanation for this in the figure legend. The reader will notice that these numbers add up to the number in the circle to the left, and the numbers indicate the number of proteins showing perfect matches (white), partial overlaps (grey) and mismatches (black). We have improved the graphic representation and added an explanation in the figure legend.

      Figure 5A. Why wasn't protein abundance and phosphosites identified from an individual, identical sample?

      This was because of the way the project developed over the course of the research, and the protein part was originally intended only as a proof of concept, with the intended focus being the phosphoproteome. We later decided to include a full analysis of the proteome, but did not consider it worthwhile and necessary to repeat the entire laborious and expensive experiment with both analyses being done from the same samples.

      How can one be sure that the phosphosites were correctly assigned if the proteins were not detected in the proteome but they were only identified in the phosphosite analysis?

      We are not sure we understand this question. The phosphoproteomic analysis identifies phosphopeptides of proteins that in turn allow one to identify the protein itself and the amino acid in that peptide that is phosphorylated. So the identification is done only WITHIN the phosphoproteomic analysis and does not relate directly to the proteomic analysis. This explains why we found some phosphopeptides for which we did not detect the full host protein in the proteomic analysis.

      Thus, if a protein was detected only in either of the experiments, this fact doesn’t modify the validity of the result, because the identification was done individually for each experiment.

      Page 16 - much discussion about the difference between Spn27A and Toll10b/def mutant background. One has half as much Toll receptor. The phenotype of Toll10b/+ should be examined.

      Both genotypes have been extensively examined in the past. Tl10B/def has only one copy of the gene from the mother, and the mutant protein is constitutively active. By putting it over a deficiency, we (and others in the past) made sure that the exclusive source for Tl signalling is from this gain of function Tl allele, and that the wildtype receptor, which would still be activated by the natural ligand in a graded pattern along the DV axis, does not confound the result.

      The Tl10B/+ combination creates a less ventralized phenotype which is not more similar to that of spn27Aex/def but in fact less similar.

      Page 12 - hard to follow the discussion of modeling (?) presented in Figure 6. The results (bottom of page 12 - #1 "most networks are enriched for cellular components associated with regulation of gene expression" and page 13 #2 - "cytoskleeton emerges as a major target of regulation") seem vague and unsubstantiated. Rhabdomere, P granule, micropyle, autophagosome?

      We agree with the reviewer that there are many cellular components that are enriched in the diffused network analyses, many of them unrelated to morphogenesis. We had highlighted this finding on page 12, paragraph 3. Nevertheless, we have rephrased the statements as ‘the heat maps illustrate that most of the enriched cellular components in both experiments were highly enriched with cellular components associated with DNA and RNA metabolism or the regulation of gene expression.’ and have now included numbers.

      We think ‘a major target’ for phosphorylation does in fact apply to the cytoskeleton, and we had already supplied the number to substantiate this in the manuscript (14/62).

      Readers will be able to evaluate these network analyses based on their own fields of interest or particular questions they may wish to address. We haven’t excluded any cellular component terms.

      Figure 7 seems like a separate study.

      Why were the phosphopeptides investigated to determine if they relate to phosphorylated proteins? Phosphoantibodies could have been generated for a subset. Instead the manuscript pivots to analysis of microtubules.

      We are reporting here one example of a proof-of-concept study that we carried out, chosen based on our own research interests and on available tools and reagents. There are clearly many other avenues that could have been explored and that others may want to explore, but that go well beyond this report. We have made this more explicit in the text.

      Page 14 - discussion first paragraph. Please cite ref[10] when discussing the "previous study" otherwise the reader will not understand which study you are referring to until the next paragraph.

      We have moved the reference from its current position to the one suggested by the reviewer.

      • In general, the study would benefit from more attention to references and citations of prior work. A comparison of this work to the Gong et al. Development 2004 study should be made earlier. This work is cited very early on, namely in the introduction.

      • The authors start off saying that no other study has looked at proteins from a spatial perspective. We are unsure what the reviewer refers to. We say precisely the opposite: we indicate that studies have been performed to look at differences in cell populations, including that by the lab of Jon Minden (Gong et al), a highly respected former co-author of one of the current authors (ML). We do state that the technologies at the time did not allow the same depth and temporal resolution as the methods that are available nowadays. For instance, Gong et al. used an excellent and original approach at the time, which however did not detect Snail and Twist in the ventralized mutants.

      The only time we say ‘no other study’ is about ‘region-specific post-translational regulation of proteins’ - though we do state in the discussion that Gong et al would have detected some of these cases because they used 2D gels.

      • Along these lines, there is another more recent proteomic study from Beati et al. Fly 2020 using similarly staged embryos. How do these other experiments compare to the current ones? As they apparently analyzed proteome and phosphopeptides from an identical sample, are the authors' new data using separate samples consistent? This study is actually about a later stage (stage 8 embryos, post-gastrulation). Again, an excellent study, but not directly relevant to our current analysis. It validates the use of SILAC in Drosophila, although it is not the first study to do this. Furthermore, it looks at a different question and biological process using a mutant, htl, to understand the effect of FGF signalling.

      • Furthermore, Adam Martin's lab has been studying microtubule action along the dorsoventral axis (Denk-Lobnig et al 2021) and this work is not cited. Denk-Lobnig et al 2021 is about spatial patterns of myosin and actin and how that is governed genetically on the ventral side of the embryo, pertaining primarily to ventral furrow formation. It does not analyse microtubules nor dorsal-ventral cell populations.

      It is possible there may be some confusion with another excellent study from Adam Martin’s lab, in which the role of microtubules is analysed. But this is exclusively in the ventral furrow, and the study did not look at the effect of microtubule depolymerisation on nuclear positioning nor membrane behaviour. We cite this work extensively (Ref.: 36, Ko et al. JCB 2019) and we compare our results to that paper. However, our work here goes beyond this study in that it looks at all cells along the DV axis.

      General comments:

      Typos throughout. For example, page .4 section heading "dorso-ventral cell..."

      We have scanned the entire document for typos.

      Font size extremely small - for example see Figure 1A gene names, and 1F magnified view.

      We have adjusted the fonts in the main figures.

      Scale bars not shown when showing magnified views. For example, see Fig 1E,

      We have added these.

      Reviewer #3 (Significance (Required)): This study by Gomez et al. uses a proteomic-centered approach to study proteomes associated with cell populations in the embryo that they argue relate to different positions along the dorso-ventral axis. They generate a proteomic resource, though it was unclear how anyone could use the data they produce. There is no searchable database and we have to trust that the authors will ultimately provide such a resource to the community.

      All proteomics and phosphoproteomics data have been uploaded to PRIDE. Also see responses to the other referees’ queries about this point.

      There is the potential for interesting insights but the work is not presented in a way that is accessible or useful. The presentation needs significant improvement.

      We have improved the presentation and way the results are presented as per the suggestion of all reviewers.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      We would like to thank the editors and reviewers for providing feedback and suggestions for our manuscript.

      In response to reviewers comments we changed several main Figures and added new tables and supplementary figures. We also made edits to the Discussion.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Weaknesses:

      Limited data is shown on the let-7afdLOF mice. Does this mouse respond similarly to nCB as the let-7bc2LOF.

      In the revised manuscript, we have added a baseline lung phenotypic assessment for the let-7afdLOF mice up to 6-months of age within Figure 4-figure supplement 1. The data supports our original statement and observation that let-7afdLOF mice do not exhibit lung pathology, inflammation, or changes in T cell subsets at baseline. Our view is that current manuscript addresses the importance of let-7bc2-cluster in experimental emphysema and the let-7afd-cluster mice is used to validate Rorc as a direct target of let-7. In the future, new grant funding will make it possible to ascertain whether absence of the let-7afd-cluster also sensitizes mice to experimentally induced emphysema.

      Because the authors validate their findings from a previously published RNA-seq dataset in subjects with and without emphysema, the authors should include patient demographics from the data presented in Figure 1C-D.

      We thank the reviewers for their recommendation. In address of this, the revised manuscript contains a new Supplementary Table 1 with the human subject demographic information that corresponds with Figure 1D.

      To validate their mouse models, the absence of Let-7 or enhanced Let-7 expression needs to be shown in isolated T cells from exposed mice.

      In the case of let-7bc2-cluster, we have included Figure 2-figure supplement 2 which shows pri-let7bc2 expression assessed by qPCR from selected CD8+ lung T cells of control and let-7bc2LOF mice exposed to PBS vehicle or nCB. The let-7g GOF model used in our studies has been validated for the induction of let-7g in thymic and peripheral T cells and elicitation of gain-of-function phenotypes (Pobezinskaya et al. 2019; Angelou et al. 2020; Wells et al. 2023).

      In Figure 3, the authors are missing the unexposed let-7bc2LOF group from all panels.

      We emphasize that our exhaustive characterization of control and let-7bc2LOF mice in absence of challenge showed no phenotype. The baseline data was collectively shown in Figure 2-figure supplement 1.

      Why did the authors choose to overexpress Let-7g, the rational is not clear?

      We concur that ideal GOF experiments can be carried out with let-7b or let-7c. Unfortunately, let-7b/c2 transgenic mice are not currently available, so we elected to use the well characterized let-7g T cell GOF mouse model (Pobezinskaya et al. 2019; Angelou et al. 2020; Wells et al. 2023). Furthermore, it is worth noting that the binding/seed sequence of let-7g is identical to let-7a/b/c and other members. Nonetheless, we have edited our Discussion section to reflect this as a potential caveat that can confound the utilization of this let-7GOF mouse model.

      The purity of the CD4+ and CD8+ T cells is not shown and the full gating strategy should be included.

      In the revision, we included the flow gating strategy and display the representative population with purities in Supplementary Figure 1 of the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Weaknesses:

      The functional analyses are unusually focused on IL-17 producing CD8 T cells, but it is not made clear whether these cells are an important player in emphysema pathogenesis in the nCB and CS models. The data shown reveal that they are far less numerous than IL-17-producing CD4 T cells. It is also notable that the Figure 1 expression data from human subjects used sorted CD4+ T cells. And as the author mentioned, prior work on let-7 showed that it regulated Th17 (CD4) responses.

      As we showed that the let-7bc2LOF had enhanced the Tc17 cell population without any significant impact on Th17 cells, we elected to focus our analysis on this population. Furthermore, the connection of let-7 with the generation of a Tc17 inflammatory response is a novel finding, which so far remained unappreciated in the field and instigates new lines of inquiry.

      Compared with Let7bc2 deletion, Let7afd deletion had a much larger effect on IL17 production by CD8 T cells in vitro, and it also had a larger effect on RORgt expression in untreated mice in vivo, especially in the lung. It would be valuable to more thoroughly characterize the let7afd mice. RORgt expression should be shown in the in vitro assays. In the results, the authors state that let7afdLOF mice "did not exhibit lung histopathology nor inflammatory changes" up to 6 months of age. Similarly, it is stated in the conclusion that "the let-7afdLOF mice ... did not exhibit changes in Tc17/Th17 subpopulations" in vivo. All these data should be shown, and if no baseline changes are apparent, then I also recommend challenging these mice with nCB and/or cigarette smoke.

      We concur that additional phenotypic characterization on the let-7afdLOF mice will contribute valuable information in the future. Reviewer 1 had a similar comment. As described above in response to Reviewer 1, we added comprehensive phenotypic analysis of let-7afdLOF mice within Figure 4-figure supplement 1 in the revised manuscript. The new data indicates that there is no overt lung pathology in the let-7afdLOF mice despite the subtle induction of RORγt expression in T cells. Furthermore, we have now included flow cytometric analysis of RORγt expression from in vitro polarized Tc0 and Tc17 cells from let-7afdLOF mice within revised Figure 5H.

      This brings up the larger issue of redundancy among the let-7 family members and genomic clusters. This should be discussed, including some explanation of the relative expression of each mature family member in T cells, and how that maps to the clusters studied here (and those that were not investigated). It would also be helpful to explain the relationship between mouse Let7bc2 and human Let7a3b, since Let7bc2 is the primary focus of emphysema experiments in this manuscript. This is especially important because the study of individual let-7 clusters is the core novelty of this body of work, as described in the first paragraph of the discussion. The regulation of let-7 expression has been reported before and its functional role has been investigated with a variety of tools.

      We appreciate the interest and suggestion to expand the discussion on the let-7 family and their expression regulation. To address these points, we included additional references and expanded the Discussion section of the revised manuscript.

      Let7g overexpression caused a marked reduction in Rorgt expression in T cells at baseline and in the setting of nCB challenge, and it reduced the frequency of IL17+ producing CD8 T cells in the lung to baseline levels. Yet there was no change in the MLI measurement of histopathology. Is this a robust result? The responses in the experiment shown in Fig. 6C-D are quite muted compared to those shown in Figure 2. The latter also shows a larger number of replicates, and it is unclear whether the data in 6D include measurement from all of the mice tested (e.g. pooled from 2 small experiments) or only mice from one experiment.

      We appreciate the reviewer inquiry into the data presented in Figure 6C-D. The data is representative of a single experiment and the number of experiments has been added to the revised Figure 6 legend. We note that all let-7GOF and associated control mice in Figure 6 are exposed to doxycycline as part of the let7g induction model, whereas mice in Figure 2 are not. It has been previously reported that doxycycline, a member of the tetracycline family of molecules, has anti-inflammatory properties (Di Caprio et al. 2015), which we speculate could account for the differences in the magnitude of emphysemic response.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Weaknesses:

      The authors show no change in frequencies of Treg cells in let-7bc2LOF mice exposed to nCB. Do these Treg cells also express higher levels of RORgt and IL-17? The major question that was not addressed in this study is how let-7 expression is regulated in emphysema. The other recommendation is that the authors include the sequences of the let-7 mimic oligos used in the luciferase assay.

      We did not have the opportunity to address whether RORγt is in fact also upregulated in Treg cells. It remains unclear what upstream mechanisms drive the downregulation of the let-7 clusters in T cells with exposure to smoke/nCB. However, we agree that this an important question and we therefore updated the Discussion section of manuscript by including several citations that could explain how let-7 clusters become repressed in a coordinated fashion. Regarding the last point, the sequence of the duplex used in luciferase assay corresponds to the canonical mature let-7b in NCBI and has been added to Supplementary Table 3.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The authors state that "Recent evidence suggests the let-7 family is downregulated in patients with COPD, however, how they cause emphysema remains unclear." This should be reworded. Its downregulation in disease does not necessarily indicate that let-7 causes emphysema. Also, recommend rewording "Overall, our findings shed light on the let-7/RORγt axis as a braking and driving regulatory circuit in the generation of Tc17 cells..." What does it mean to be a "braking and driving" circuit? These terms seem contradictory.

      We recognize that the sentences were not phrased clearly. We have rephrased these statements as “Recent evidence suggests the let-7 miRNA family is downregulated in patients with COPD, however, whether this repression conveys a functional consequence in emphysema pathology has not been elucidated.” and “Overall, our findings shed light on the let-7/RORγt axis with let-7 acting as a molecular brake in the generation of Tc17 cells…”

      Experimental details are needed for the human miRNA expression studies. Too little information is provided in the methods section, and the article cited there (Yuan et al 2020) is not listed in the bibliography.

      We expanded the Materials and Methods section for the collection, isolation, and qPCR analysis of human subject lung T cells. We have corrected the bibliography and added the missing citation.

      The claim of novelty for miRNA-mediated silencing of Rorc in the discussion section is unnecessary and incorrect (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23359619).

      Thank you for bringing the publication to our attention. Close inspection of this publication indicates that the authors did not experimentally validate Rorc as a direct target of let-7 itself. Plus the work was limited to immortalized in vitro cell cultures. We amended the sentence in the Discussion section highlighting the novelty of our findings which is the demonstration of Rorc as an in vivo target of let-7 in T cells.

      Citations

      Angelou, Constance C., Alexandria C. Wells, Jyothi Vijayaraghavan, Carey E. Dougan, Rebecca Lawlor, Elizabeth Iverson, Vanja Lazarevic, et al. 2020. “Differentiation of Pathogenic Th17 Cells Is Negatively Regulated by Let-7 MicroRNAs in a Mouse Model of Multiple Sclerosis.” Frontiers in Immunology 10: 3125. https://doi.org/10.3389/fimmu.2019.03125.

      Di Caprio, Roberta, Serena Lembo, Luisa Di Costanzo, Anna Balato, and Giuseppe Monfrecola. 2015. “Anti-Inflammatory Properties of Low and High Doxycycline Doses: An in Vitro Study.” Mediators of Inflammation 2015: 329418. https://doi.org/10.1155/2015/329418.

      Pobezinskaya, Elena L., Alexandria C. Wells, Constance C. Angelou, Eric Fagerberg, Esengul Aral, Elizabeth Iverson, Motoko Y. Kimura, and Leonid A. Pobezinsky. 2019. “Survival of Naïve T Cells Requires the Expression of Let-7 miRNAs.” Frontiers in Immunology 10 (May). https://doi.org/10.3389/fimmu.2019.00955.

      Wells, Alexandria C., Kaito A. Hioki, Constance C. Angelou, Adam C. Lynch, Xueting Liang, Daniel J. Ryan, Iris Thesmar, et al. 2023. “Let-7 Enhances Murine Anti-Tumor CD8 T Cell Responses by Promoting Memory and Antagonizing Terminal Differentiation.” Nature Communications 14 (1): 5585. https://doi.org/10.1038/s41467-023-40959-7.

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      Reply to the reviewers

      RC-2023-02105R: Brunetta et al.,

      IF1 is a cold-regulated switch of ATP synthase to support thermogenesis in brown fat

      We are happy to submit our revised manuscript after considering the suggestions made by reviewers. The comments were overall positive, and the changes requested were mostly editorial. We have, nevertheless, added new experiments as quality controls. These experiments did not affect the main conclusions of our work. In addition, we also included two in vivo experimental models of gain and loss-of-function, to further address the physiological relevance of IF1 in BAT thermogenesis. We believe with these additional experiments, quality controls as well as in vivo models, our study has improved considerably. We hope our efforts will be appreciated by the reviewers and we make ourselves available to answer any further questions.

      Reviewer #1 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      Summary: In the present manuscript, the authors present data in support of their primary discovery that "IF1 controls UCP1-dependent mitochondrial bioenergetics in brown adipocytes". The opening figure convincingly demonstrates that IF1 expression is cold-exposure dependent. They then go on to show that loss of IF1 has functional consequences that would be predicted based on IF1's know role as a regulator of ATP hydrolysis by CV. They go on to make a few additional claims, succinctly detailed in the Discussion section. Specific claims include the following: 1) IF1 is downregulated in cold-adapted BAT, allowing greater hydrolytic activity of ATP synthase by operating in the reverse mode; 2) when IF1 is upregulated in brown adipocytes in vitro mitochondria unable to sustain the MMP upon adrenergic stimulation, 3) IF1 ablation in brown adipocytes phenocopies the metabolic adaptation of BAT to cold, and 4) IF1 overexpression blunts mitochondrial respiration without any apparent compensator response in glycolytic activity. The claims described above are well supported by the evidence. The manuscript is very well written, figures are clear and succinct. Overall, the quality of the work is very high. Given that IF1 is implicated across many fields of study, the novel discovery of IF1 as a regulator of brown adipose mitochondrial bioenergetics will be of significance across several fields. That said, a few areas of concern were apparent. Concerns are detailed in the "Major" and "Minor" comments section below. Additional experiments do not appear to be required, assuming the authors adequately acknowledge the limitations of the study and either remove or qualify speculative claims.

      Major Comments:

      1. The authors convincingly demonstrate that IF1 expression is specifically down-regulated in BAT upon cold-exposure. These data strongly implicate a role for IF1 in BAT bioenergetics, a major claim of the authors and a novel finding herein. Additional major strengths of the paper, which provide excellent scientific rigor include the use of both loss of function and gain of function approaches for IF1. In addition, the mutant IF1 experiments are excellent, as they convincingly show that the effects of IF1 are dependent on its ability to bind CV. RESPONSE: We thank the reviewer for the positive feedback on our work.

      Regarding Figure 1 - Did the content of ATP synthase change? In figure 1A-B, the authors show that ATPase activity of CV is higher in cold-adapted mice. While this result could be due to a loss of IF1, it could also be due to a higher expression of CV. To control for this, the authors should consider blotting for CV, which would allow for ATPase activity to be normalized to expression.

      RESPONSE: Thank you for this suggestion. We have now determined complex V subunit A in our experimental protocol. We found that cold exposure does not impact complex V protein levels. Given the importance of this control, we have now included it in Figure 1 (Please, see the revised version) alongside the IF1/complex V ratio. In addition, we have now performed WBs in the BAT from mice exposed for 3 and 7 days to thermoneutrality (~28°C). We found that IF1 is not reduced following whitening of BAT by this approach whilst UCP1 and other mitochondrial proteins are reduced. This set of data is now included in Figure 1I,K,L.

      Regarding MMP generated specifically by ATP hydrolysis at CV, the reversal potential for ANT occurs at a more negative MMP than that of CV (PMID: 21486564). Because reverse transport of ATP (cytosol to matrix) via ANT will also generate a MMP, it is speculative to state that the MMP in the assay is driven by ATP hydrolysis at CV. It is possible and maybe even likely that the majority of the MMP is driven by ANT flux, which in turn limits the amount of ATP hydrolyzed by CV. Admittedly, it is very challenging to different MMP from ANT vs that from CV, thus the authors simply need to acknowledge that the specific contribution of ATP hydrolysis to MMP remains to be fully determined. That said, the fact that ATP-dependent MMP tracks with IF1 expression does certainly implicate a role for ATP hydrolysis in the process. The authors should consider including a discussion of the ambiguity of the assay to avoid confusion. A role for ANT likely should be incorporated in the Fig. 1J cartoon.

      RESPONSE: Thank you for bringing the ANT contribution to MMP to our attention. The effects of ATP in the real-time MMP measurements were totally abolished by the addition of oligomycin in BAT-derived isolated mitochondria, thus suggesting dependency of complex V in this process. However, the assessment of MMP in intact cells is much more challenging given cytosolic vs. mitochondrial contribution to ATP pool, and ATP synthase vs. ANT reversal capacity depending on MMP. Nevertheless, we have addressed these points in the discussion section as well as added to our schematic cartoon in Figure 1m.

      Regarding the lack of effect of IF1 silencing on MMP, it is possible that IF1 total protein levels are simply lower in cultured brown fat cells relative to tissue? The authors could consider testing this by blotting for IF1 and CV in BAT and brown fat cells. The ratio of IF1/ATP5A1 in tissue versus cells may provide some amount of mechanistic evidence as to their findings.

      RESPONSE: We have now blotted for complex V and IF1 in both differentiated primary brown adipocytes and BAT homogenates derived from mice kept at room temperature (~22°C). We found the levels of complex V in primary brown adipocytes are higher than BAT homogenates. Therefore, IF1/complex V ratio is different between these two systems. This has indeed the potential to influence our gain and loss-of-function experiments. We have added these results alongside their interpretation in the revised manuscript.

      The calculation of ATP synthesis from respiration sensitive to oligomycin has many conceptual flaws. Unlike glycolysis, where ATP is produced via substrate level phosphorylation, during OXPHOS, the stoichiometry of ATP produced per 2e transfer is not known in intact brown adipose cells. This is a major limitation of this "calculated ATP synthesis" approach that is beginning to become common. Such claims are speculative and thus likely do more harm than good. In addition to ANT and CV, there are many proton-consuming reactions driven by the proton motive force (e.g., metabolite transport, Ca2+ cycling, NADPH synthesis). Although it remains unclear how much proton conductance is diverted to non-ATP synthesis dependent processes, it seems highly likely that these processes contribute to respiratory demand inside living cells. Moreover, just as occurs with UCP1 in response to adrenergic stimuli, proton conductance across the various proton-dependent processes likely changes depending on the cellular context, which is another reason why using a fixed stoichiometry to calculate how much ATP is produced from oxygen consumption is so highly flawed. Maximal P/O values that are often used for NAD/FAD linked flux are generated using experimental conditions that favor near complete flux through the ATP synthesis system (supraphysiological substrate and ADP levels). The true P/O value inside living cells is likely to be lower.

      RESPONSE: We agree with the reviewer regarding the limitations on calculating ATP production in intact cells based on respiration and proton flux. However, this was only one experiment on which we based our conclusions, as these were also supported by i.e. ATP/ADP ratio measurements and oxygen consumption using different substrates. Therefore, we do not rely exclusively on the ATP production estimative, rather we use this experiment to support complementary methodologies. Nevertheless, we have now better detailed our experimental protocol as well as acknowledged the limitations of the method, so the reader is aware of our procedure and its limitations. We hope the reviewer understands our motivation to perform these experiments and the contribution to our study.

      Why are the results in Figure 3K expressed as a % of basal? Could the authors please normalize the OCR data to protein and/or provide a justification for why different normalization strategies were used between 3K and 3M?

      RESPONSE: We apologize for the lack of consistency. We have now updated Figure 3 to show all the data in absolute values divided by protein content. This change does not affect the overall interpretation of the findings.

      The authors claim that IF1 overexpression lowers ATP production via OXPHOS. However, given the major limitations of this assay (ass discussed above), these claims should be viewed as speculation. This needs to be addressed by the authors as a major limitation. The fact that the ATP/ADP levels did not change do not support of reduction in ATP production, as claimed in the title of Figure 4.

      RESPONSE: The reduction in ATP levels and mitochondrial respiration (independent of the substrate offered) suggests a reduction in ATP production rather than an increase in ATP consumption. Moreover, the maintenance of ATP/ADP ratio suggests the existence of a compensatory mechanism to avoid cellular energy crises, which we interpreted as reduced metabolic activity of the cells. Nevertheless, we have now reworded our statements to address the limitations of the methods and our interpretation of the data.

      In the discussion, the authors state "However, considering that IF1 inhibits F1-ATP synthase in a 1:1 stoichiometric ratio, the relatively higher expression of IF1 in BAT at room temperature could represent an additional inhibitory factor for ATP synthesis in this tissue." This does not appear to be correct. Although IF1 has been suggested to partially lower maximal rates of ATP synthesis rates, most of this evidence comes from over-expression experiments. According to the current understanding of IF1-CV interaction, the protein is expelled from the complex during rotation in favor of ATP synthesis (PMID: 37002198). It is far more likely that ATP synthesis is low in BAT mitochondria due to the low CV expression. Relative to heart and when normalized to mitochondrial content, CV expression in BAT mitochondria is about 10% that of heart (PMID: 33077793).

      RESPONSE: We agree with the reviewer and removed this sentence.

      The last sentence of the manuscript states, "Given the importance of IF1 to control brown adipocyte energy metabolism, lowering IF1 levels therapeutically might enhance approaches to enhance NST for improving cardiometabolic health in humans." This sentence seems at odds with the evidence that IF1 levels go up, not down, in human BAT upon cold exposure.

      RESPONSE: In light of our new experiments, we have now updated our conclusions.

      Minor Comments:

      The term "anaerobic glycolysis" is used throughout. All experiments were performed under normoxic conditions, thus the correct term is "aerobic glycolysis.

      RESPONSE: Thank you for this comment and we have replaced this term as suggested.

      Only male mice were used in the study, could the authors please provide a justification for this?

      RESPONSE: Given we devoted most of our efforts to the manipulation of IF1 in vitro, we have used the mouse model as a proof-of-principle on the impact of IF1 in adrenergic-induced thermogenesis. We have now included IF1 KO male and female mice to address the role of IF1 in adrenergic-induced thermogenesis. However, due to the limitation of material, we could only perform AAV in vivo gain-of-function in male mice, therefore, our results cannot be immediately transferred to both sexes, unfortunately.

      Reviewer #1 (Significance (Required)):

      Overall, the quality of the work is very high. Given that IF1 is implicated across many fields of study, the novel discovery of IF1 as a regulator of brown adipose mitochondrial bioenergetics will be of significance across several fields.

      My expertise is in mitochondrial thermodynamics; thus, I do not feel there are any parts of the paper that I do not have sufficient expertise to evaluate.

      Reviewer #2 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      Summary

      The manuscript by Brunetta and colleagues conveys the message that the ATPase inhibitory factor 1 (IF1) protein, a physiological inhibitor of mitochondrial ATP synthase, is expressed in BAT of C57BL/6J mice. Moreover, upon cold-adaption of mice they report that the content of IF1 in BAT is downregulated to sustain the mitochondrial membrane potential (MMP) as a result of reverse functioning of the enzyme. In experiments of loss and gain of function of IF1 in cultured brown adipocytes and WT cells they further stress that IF1 silencing promotes metabolic reprogramming to an enhanced glycolysis and lipid oxidation, whereas IF1 overexpression blunts ATP production rendering a quiescent cellular state of the adipocytes.

      RESPONSE: We appreciate the time the reviewer invested in our work. Please, see our responses below in a point-by-point manner.

      Reviewer #2 (Significance (Required)):

      Claims and conclusions:

      I have been surprised by the claim that IF1 protein is expressed in BAT under basal conditions and that its expression is downregulated in the cold-adapted tissue. In a previously published work by Forner et al., (2009) Cell Metab 10, 324-335 (reference 43), using a quantitative proteomic approach, it is reported that the mitochondrial proteome of mouse BAT under basal conditions contains a low content of IF1 (at level comparable to the background of the analysis). Remarkably, in the same study they show that there is roughly a 2-fold increase in the content of IF1 protein in mitochondria of BAT at 4d and 24d of cold-adaptation of mice. In other words, just the opposite of what is being reported in the Brunetta study.

      RESPONSE: We are aware of the inconsistencies between our findings and Forner et al. (2009). We would like to point out that we have determined IF1 levels in BAT in two separate cohorts with the same findings, and in a third cohort, we observed IF1 mRNA levels to be downregulated in a much shorter timeframe. Our functional analysis is line with this pattern of regulation. A closer look at the supplementary table provided by Forner et al. (2009), shows that the increase in IF1 content following cold exposure is not supported and since we do not have further insight into the methods and analysis employed by the Forner et al. group, we believe a direct comparison should be avoided at the moment. Regarding the baseline levels of IF1 in BAT, the relatively high abundance of IF1 in BAT was also found by another independent group (https://doi.org/10.1101/2020.09.24.311076).

      Importantly, the last paragraph of the discussion needs to be amended when mentioning the work of Forner et al. (ref.43). The mentioned reference studied changes in the mouse mitochondrial proteome not in human mitochondria, as it is stated in the alluded paragraph.

      RESPONSE: We apologize for this overlook; we have now reworded our statement.

      More puzzling are the western blots in Figures 1E, 1H, Supp. Fig. 1C, D were IF1 (ATP5IF1) is identified by a 17kDa band. However, in other Figures (Fig. 2, Fig. 3, Fig. 4, Supp Fig. 2) IF1 is identified by its well-known 12kDa band. What is the reason for this change in labeling of the IF1 band? The reactivity of the anti-IF1 antibody used? It has been previously documented that liver of C57BL/6J and FVB mouse strains do not express IF1 to a significant level when compared to heart IF1 levels (Esparza-Molto (2019) FASEB J. 33, 1836-1851). However, in Fig. 1E they show opposite findings, much higher levels of IF1 in liver than in heart as reveal by the 17kDa band. Moreover, in Fig. 1H they show the vanishing of the 17 kDa band under cold adaptation, which is not the migration of IF1 in gels as shown in their own figures (see Fig. 2, Fig. 3, Fig. 4, Supp Fig. 2). I am certainly reluctant to accept that the 17kDa band shown in Figures 1E, 1H, Supp. Fig. 1C, D is indeed IF1. Most likely it represents a non-specific protein recognized by the antibody in the tissue extracts analyzed. Cellular overexpression experiments of IF1 in WT1 cells (Fig. 2E) and primary brown adipocytes (Fig. 4B) also support this argument. Overall, I do not support publication of this study for the reasons stated above.

      RESPONSE: We understand the concerns raised by the reviewer and apologize for the lack of details in our experimental procedures. While we used the same antibody in the study (Cell Sig. cat. Num. 8528, 1:500), we used two different types of gels. The difference in the molecular weight appearance of IF1 is likely through the migration of the protein in the agarose gel. By using custom-made gels, we observe the protein ~17kDa (Fig. 1 and 5), whereas by using commercial gels (Fig. 2, 3, and 4), we observe the protein closer to the predicted molecular weight (i.e. ~12kDa). Of note, gain and loss-of-function experiments, both in vivo as well as in vitro confirm this statement and the specificity of the antibody (Fig. 2, 3, 4, 5, Fig. EV2). In addition, when we ran a custom-made gel with primary BAT cells, we observed again the ~17kDa band (see Figure for the reviewer below). These experiments alongside the absence of other bands in the gels (see uncropped membranes in Supplementary Figure 1) make us conclude that the band we observe is indeed IF1. Nevertheless, we have now updated our methods section, so the reader is aware of our approaches. We hope the reviewer is satisfied with our additional experiments and editions throughout the manuscript.

      Reviewer #3 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, Brunneta et al describe the role of IF1 in brown adipose tissue activation using in vivo and in vitro experimental models. They observed that cold adaptation promotes a reduction in IF1 expression and an increase in the reverse activity of mitochondrial ATPase or Complex V. Based on these results, the authors explore the contribution of IF1 in this metabolic pathway by modeling the thermogenic process in differentiated primary brown adipocytes. They silenced and overexpressed IF1 in culture and studied their adrenergic stimulation under norepinephrine.

      Major comments:

      The experiments are well explained and the manuscript flows very well. There are several comments that should be addressed.

      RESPONSE: We thank the reviewer for the kind words regarding our work.

      1. The authors measure ATP hydrolysis in isolated mitochondria from BAT in Figure 1. They observed that IF1 is decreased upon cold exposure and that ATP hydrolysis is increased. They assess protein levels of different OXPHOS proteins, including IF1 but not other proteins of Complex V (ATP5A) as they do in Figures 3 and 4. It is important to see that cold exposure only affects IF1 levels but not other proteins from Complex V. Does IF1/Complex V ratio change? RESPONSE: We thank the reviewer for this suggestion which was also raised by Reviewer #1. We have now measured complex V subunit A in our experimental protocol. We found that cold exposure does not impact complex V protein levels. Given the importance of this information, we have now included it in Figure 1 (Please, see the revised version) alongside the IF1/complex V ratio. In addition, we have now performed WBs in the BAT exposed for 3 and 7 days to thermoneutrality (~28°C) where we found that IF1 is not reduced following whitening of BAT by this approach whilst UCP1 and other mitochondrial proteins are reduced.

      This set of data is now included in Figure 1I,K,L.

      In Figure 2J, the drop in MMP is lower upon adrenergic stimulation than in Figure 2E. The same observation applies to other results when the reduction in MMP after NE addition is minimal. Why do the authors remove TMRM for the measurements of membrane potential? TMRM imaging is normally done in the presence of the dye in non-quenching mode. Treatments should be done prior to the addition of the dye and then TMRM should be added and left during the imaging analysis and measure in non-quenching mode. This might explain some of the above-mentioned points regarding the MMP data. Alternatively, if the dye is removed before the measurements, they should let the cells to adapt and so the dye equilibrates between mitochondria and cytosol. A more elegant method to measure membrane potential could be live-cell imaging. In addition, authors propose that mitochondrial membrane potential upon NE stimulation is maintained by reversal of ATP synthase. If this is the case, one would expect that addition of oligomycin in NE treated adipocytes would cause depolarization. However, in FigS2A this is not the case. Authors should comment on this in addition to considering more elegant approach to measure MMP.

      RESPONSE: We apologize for the lack of details in the methods. All treatments (i.e., transfection and norepinephrine stimulation) were performed before the addition of TMRM. Indeed, this approach does not have the resolution compared to safranine in isolated mitochondria (Fig. 1D), which limits our interpretation regarding the dynamic role of IF1 on MMP in brown adipocytes. We have taken care to state the limitations of our method throughout the entire paper to avoid overinterpretation of our data. Regarding the removal of the dye before the measurements, our internal controls indicate that this procedure does not change the ability of our method to detect fluctuations in MMP (i.e., oligomycin and FCCP as internal controls). Nevertheless, as suggested by the reviewer, to test the time effect of the probe equilibrium (i.e., mitochondria versus cytosol) in our method, we loaded cells with TMRM 20 nM for 30 min and measured the fluorescence right after the removal of the probe/washing steps for another 10 min. We were not able to detect differences in the fluorescence in a time-dependent manner (see below). Therefore, we conclude the removal of TMRM does not influence the fluorescence of the probe in differentiated brown adipocytes.

      +NE

      -NE

      In addition, we performed a similar experiment using TMRM in the quenching mode (200 nM), however, after the removal of TMRM, we added FCCP (1 mM) to the cells for 10 min under constant agitations at 37°C. This approach aimed to expel all TMRM that accumulated within the mitochondria in an MMP-dependent manner. Therefore, excluding the dynamic Brownian movement that we could have caused by the removal of the dye before the measurement mentioned by the reviewer. By doing this, we found the same effect of IF1 overexpression in the reduction of MMP in the presence of norepinephrine.

      Protocol:

      • Transfection (24h) on day 4 of differentiation + 24h just normal media

      • 30 min norepinephrine 10 µM

      • 200 nM TMRM on top of NE

      • Washing step

      • Add FCCP 1 µM for 10 min, and read (The aim here was to release all TMRM accumulated inside of mitochondria in a MMP-dependent manner)

      In summary, the data suggests the removal of the dye from the cells does not influence the fluorescence of TMRM, therefore, enabling us to make conclusions regarding the biological effects of IF1 manipulation in the MMP of brown adipocytes. Regarding the reverse mode of ATP synthase and the absence of effects with oligomycin, given oligomycin inhibits both rotation of ATP synthase and even uncoupled brown adipocytes respond to oligomycin (i.e. reduction in O2 consumption), the prediction of lowering MMP in the presence of oligomycin due to inhibition of the reserve mode of ATP synthase is more complicated than anticipated. Nevertheless, we have now addressed this topic in the discussion section. Lastly, we generally observe a reduction in MMP around 10-25% in differentiated adipocytes upon NE treatment (30 minutes, 10mM). However, due to the differentiation state of the cells, MMP response from norepinephrine fluctuated from experiment to experiment. Therefore, we did not compare experiments performed on different days or batches, but only within the same differentiation batch to reduce variability.

      In Figure 2, in the model of siIF1, there is baseline more phosphorylation of AMPK than in the scramble control (pAMPK). However, this is not the case of p-p38MAPK. Do the authors have any explanation for those differences in baseline activation of the stress kinases when IF1 is silenced? In the same experimental group, addition of NE seems to have more effect in the scrambled than in siIF1, but the plotted data does not reflect these differences. In contrast, increase in pAMPK upon NE is higher in IF1 overexpressing cells compared to EV (Figure 2H), but again this is not reflected in western blot quantification (Figure 2I).

      RESPONSE: Although some differences in pAMPK in the treatments were observed as gathered by the representative blots, these changes were not confirmed later in different biological replicates, therefore, the overall effect of IF1 manipulation in pAMPK does not change. Given we used this approach as quality control for our experiments to guarantee norepinephrine treatment works, we removed the pAMPK data from the study and kept p38 as a marker of adrenergic signaling activation (please see revised Fig. 2 in the main file).

      Does NE promote decrease of IF1 expression in control (siScramble and EV) adipocytes? The authors should test it and see whether it goes in the same direction as the observations derived from the experiments in cold exposed mice. This is very important point, as it could explain the lack of an additional effect of IF1 silencing on NE-induced depolarization (Figure 2E).

      RESPONSE: We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. In line, with the in vivo data, acute NE treatment in differentiated brown adipocytes does not change IF1 mRNA and protein levels. We have now added this information and the corresponding interpretation to the updated manuscript.

      Does NE promote decrease of IF1 expression in the scramble and EV adipocytes? The authors should test it and see whether it goes in the same direction as the observations derived from the experiments in cold exposed mice.

      RESPONSE: As this question is the same as #4, we believe the reviewer may have erroneously pasted this here.

      For MMP data in Fig2, they should include significance between non treated and NE-treated groups. They say: "While UCP1 ablation did not cause any effect on MMP upon adrenergic stimulation...", but NE caused (probably significant) depolarization in siUCP1, which seems even stronger than depolarization in EV. This is opposite to what you would expect. They also didn't confirm UCP1 silencing with western blot.

      RESPONSE: We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We have now included the expected statistical main effect of NE upon MMP. Although the effects of IF1 overexpression were blunted when Ucp1 was silenced, we indeed still observed the same degree of reduction in MMP in brown adipocytes. This finding has two possible explanations, one is the effectiveness of the silencing protocol, therefore, residual Ucp1 expression may still play a role in this experiment; second, other ATP-consuming processes are able to lower MMP in a UCP1-independent manner. We have added this information to the updated manuscript to make the reader aware of our findings as well as the limitations of the method. Unfortunately, we were not able to detect UCP1 protein levels due to technical issues. Given the effects of IF1 overexpression were blunted when Ucp1 was silenced, we believe this functional outcome is sufficient, alongside mRNA levels, to demonstrate the effectiveness of our silencing protocol.

      It has been established that decreased expression of IF1 promotes increase in the reverse activity of Complex V, ATP hydrolytic activity. Increase in ATP hydrolysis also affects ECAR. The authors should consider this when calculating the contribution of ATP glycolysis versus ATP OXPHOS since the ATP hydrolysis is also playing a role in the ECAR increase. The data should be reinterpreted. ATP hydrolysis should be measured in the situation where IF1 is silenced and overexpressed. These measurements can be done in cells using the seahorse.

      RESPONSE: The only differences we observed in MMP are in the presence of norepinephrine (i.e. UCP-1-dependent proton conductance), which is not present during the estimation of ATP production by Seahorse analysis. Nevertheless, we have now improved the description of our experimental protocol and limitations to estimate ATP production to make it as clear as possible to the reader. Lastly, given the addition of in vivo gain-of-function experiments, we have now determined the ATP hydrolytic activity in this model, which offers a better understanding of the in vivo modulation of IF1 levels affecting ATP synthase activity (reverse mode). We hope the reviewer understands our motivation to focus on the in vivo model of gain-of-function regarding ATP synthase activity.

      The authors use GAPDH as loading control in western blots. They should use another protein since GAPDH is part of the intermediary metabolism and plays a role in glycolysis.

      RESPONSE: We understand the concern of the reviewer regarding the use of GAPDH as a loading control for the studies of metabolism. However, as can be observed by the western blot images, GAPDH levels do not change in our experimental models, therefore, we feel confident that our loading is homogeneous throughout our gels.

      The authors show that reduction of IF1 involves more lipid utilization. They should include more experiments showing the connection of the metabolic adaptation in the absence of IF1 and some lipid imaging.

      RESPONSE: We appreciate this suggestion. We have now performed Oil Red O staining in differentiated adipocytes following ablation of IF1. However, we did not observe any effect on lipid accumulation in primary brown adipocytes following IF1 knockdown. Therefore, the effects of IF1 ablation on lipid mobilization are not due to lipid content or reflected in lipid accumulation. We have now added this new information to the manuscript (please, see the revised form Fig. EV3).

      In the text, "Despite this adjustment of experimental conditions, we did not detect any effect of IF1 ablation on mitochondrial oxygen consumption (Supplementary Fig. 3A,B)", this is true for baseline, NE-driven and ATP-linked respiration, but what about maximal respiration? There is a huge increase in IF1 knockdown... They should explain these results.

      RESPONSE: We perform this experiment to address the question of whether the lipid mobilization induced by norepinephrine would uncouple mitochondria in a UCP1-independent manner. Given the absence of effect between scrambled and IF1 ablated cells in mitochondrial respiration in the presence of norepinephrine and following the addition of oligomycin, we concluded no effect of lipolysis-induced UCP1-independent uncoupling. However, as observed by the reviewer and consistent with other data within the study, the interaction between lipid metabolism and IF1 knockdown seems to affect maximal electron transport chain activity, which although interesting, was not the focus of the present study. Nevertheless, we have now acknowledged these findings and a possible explanation for them in the revised manuscript.

      In Figure 3K they present OCR as % of baseline, but in a similar experiment in Figire 4G it is OCR/protein, they should make the Y axis consistent across experiments.

      RESPONSE: We apologize for this overlook. We have now edited all the axes and labels for consistency.

      The graphical abstract is confusing. In BAT there are two populations of mitochondria, the cytosolic and the mitochondria attached to the lipid droplet, peridroplet mitochondria (PDM). Upon adrenergic stimulation, PDM leave the lipid droplet and lipolysis takes place. The authors propose that upon adrenergic stimulation, IF1 is reduced and there is lipid mobilization. The part of the scheme where it says "fully recruited" should be removed or rewritten, since adrenergic stimulation is not compatible with mitochondria recruitment around the lipid droplet.

      RESPONSE: Thank you for this input. Given the addition of new experiments and interpretation, we have now redrawn the graphical abstract and addressed this topic in the discussion section.

      The title should be rewritten to better reflect the research presented in the manuscript.

      RESPONSE: Thank you for this input. Given the addition of new experiments, we have now rewritten the title accordingly.

      Minor comments:

      Some of the Y axis should be corrected. For example, in Figure 2J, L and M should say % of EV untreated, Similarly, in Figure 2E, it should say % of scramble untreated. In Figure 3N, the Y axis is misspelled. All the Y axis referring to percentages should have the same scale for comparison purposes.

      RESPONSE: Thank you for the proofreading. We have now edited the scales and labels to keep consistency.

      The authors should describe better the results corresponding to Figure 2. There is a lot of information and they should improve the description pertaining the connection between the different pieces of data relating the different signaling pathways that are shown. For westerns in this Figure, they should provide some rationale (one to two sentences in the results section) as to why they are checking the expression of pAMPK and p38-MAPK.

      RESPONSE: We have now edited the description of our results to make them as clear as possible.

      Here are some comments referring to the methods section:

      For Complex V hydrolytic activity, the reaction buffer contains 10mM Na-azide. I guess this is to inhibit respiration, but wouldn't azide also inhibit complex V at this concentration?

      RESPONSE: We thank the reviewer for this question. To test that, we performed complex V activity in buffers containing or not 10 mM sodium azide. As demonstrated below, the presence of sodium azide in the buffer does not influence complex V activity in two different tissues with low and high complex V activity (BAT and heart, respectively).

      Table 1. ATP synthase hydrolytic activity in the presence or absence of Na-azide.

      BAT

      Heart

      +Na-azide

      100 ± 43.01

      100 ± 39.36

      -Na-azide

      82.6 ± 4.33

      111.3 ± 43.32

      +Na-azide + oligomycin

      15.3 ± 4.32*

      13.8 ± 14.01*

      -Na-azide + oligomycin

      14.2 ± 3.53*

      11.9 ± 2.88*

      Data presented as % of control (i.e. presence of Na-azide and absence of oligomycin) for both tissues independently. N = 2-3/condition. Statistical test: two-way ANOVA. * main effect of oligomycin (p In the mitochondrial isolation protocol, they say "mitochondria were centrifuged at 800g for 10min..." Will this speed pellet the mitochondria? I think this is a mistake in writing.

      RESPONSE: We apologize for the lack of clarity. What was centrifuged at 800 g was the whole-tissue homogenate to discard cellular debris, before pelleting mitochondria at 5000 g. We have now corrected this mistake in the methods section.

      For the safranin-O experiment, they don't mention mitochondrial substrate used, probably it's in the reference that they provide, but I think it should be included in the text.

      RESPONSE: We did not use any substrate because our goal was to test the contribution of ATP synthase to mitochondrial membrane potential. For that, we inhibited proton movement within the ETC with antimycin A and through UCP1 with GDP (see Methods). We have now edited our Method’s description to make sure the reader is aware of our approach.

      Reviewer #3 (Significance (Required)):

      The manuscript is well written, and it flows well when reading. However, there are some additional experiments that need to be performed to reach the conclusions the authors claim.

      RESPONSE: We thank the reviewer for the positive commentaries regarding our work and hope to have answered the open questions with the edits and new experiments.

      The role of ATP hydrolysis in BAT thermogenesis is novel and interesting as it can sed some light onto potential approaches to promotes BAT activation.

      Reviewer #4 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      This is an interesting investigation into the activity of IF1 in brown adipocytes. The findings are innovative and the conclusion is well-supported by the data. The conclusion is in line with previous reports on IF1 activities in other cell types, particularly in terms of its regulation of FoF1-ATPase. The authors have executed an exceptional job in designing the study, preparing the figures, and writing the manuscript. Overall, this study significantly contributes to the understanding of IF1 activity in brown adipocytes and its role in thermogenesis.

      RESPONSE: We thank the reviewer for the kind words. Please, find below our answers in a point-by-point manner.

      Reviewer #4 (Significance (Required)):

      The study demonstrates involvement of IF1 in regulating thermogenesis in brown adipocytes, which is a unique aspect not covered in existing literature. Advantage of the study is well-designed cellular studies. The major weakness is lack of proof of conclusion in vivo. There are a few minor concerns that should be addressed to further enhance quality of the manuscript.

      RESPONSE: We have now included two in vivo models, whole-body IF1 KO mice and BAT-injected IF1 overexpression to test the role of IF1 in BAT biology. The whole dataset is included in the main manuscript, where we conclude the BAT IF1 overexpression partially suppresses b3-adrenergic induction of thermogenesis alongside a reduction (overall and UCP1 dependent) in mitochondrial oxygen consumption. Also, similar to our in vitro experiments, IF1 KO mice did not present any difference in adrenergic-stimulated oxygen consumption.

      1. Current discussion does not mention the regulation of IF1 protein by the cAMP/PKA pathway. This point should be included to provide a comprehensive understanding of the regulatory mechanisms of IF1 protein. RESPONSE: Thank you for this suggestion. We have now added this topic to the discussion.

      It has been reported that IF1 also influences the structure of mitochondrial crista. Considering the observed changes with IF1 knockdown, it would be valuable to discuss this activity in relation to the findings of the study.

      RESPONSE: We discussed the implications of IF1 modulation in mitochondrial morphology in the revised manuscript.

    2. Note: This preprint has been reviewed by subject experts for Review Commons. Content has not been altered except for formatting.

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      Referee #3

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, Brunneta et al describe the role of IF1 in brown adipose tissue activation using in vivo and in vitro experimental models. They observed that cold adaptation promotes a reduction in IF1 expression and an increase in the reverse activity of mitochondrial ATPase or Complex V. Based on these results, the authors explore the contribution of IF1 in this metabolic pathway by modeling the thermogenic process in differentiated primary brown adipocytes. They silenced and overexpressed IF1 in culture and studied their adrenergic stimulation under norepinephrine.

      Major comments:

      The experiments are well explained and the manuscript flows very well. There are several comments that should be addressed.

      1. The authors measure ATP hydrolysis in isolated mitochondria from BAT in Figure 1. They observed that IF1 is decreased upon cold exposure and that ATP hydrolysis is increased. They assess protein levels of different OXPHOS proteins, including IF1 but not other proteins of Complex V (ATP5A) as they do in Figures 3 and 4. It is important to see that cold exposure only affects IF1 levels but not other proteins from Complex V. Does IF1/Complex V ratio change?
      2. In Figure 2J, the drop in MMP is lower upon adrenergic stimulation than in Figure 2E. The same observation applies to other results when the reduction in MMP after NE addition is minimal. Why do the authors remove TMRM for the measurements of membrane potential? TMRM imaging is normally done in the presence of the dye in non-quenching mode. Treatments should be done prior to the addition of the dye and then TMRM should be added and left during the imaging analysis and measure in non-quenching mode. This might explain some of the above-mentioned points regarding the MMP data. Alternatively, if the dye is removed before the measurements, they should let the cells to adapt and so the dye equilibrates between mitochondria and cytosol. A more elegant method to measure membrane potential could be live-cell imaging. In addition, authors propose that mitochondrial membrane potential upon NE stimulation is maintained by reversal of ATP synthase. If this is the case, one would expect that addition of oligomycin in NE treated adipocytes would cause depolarization. However, in FigS2A this is not the case. Authors should comment on this in addition to considering more elegant approach to measure MMP
      3. In Figure 2, in the model of siIF1, there is baseline more phosphorylation of AMPK than in the scramble control (pAMPK). However, this is not the case of p-p38MAPK. Do the authors have any explanation for those differences in baseline activation of the stress kinases when IF1 is silenced? In the same experimental group, addition of NE seems to have more effect in the scrambled than in siIF1, but the plotted data does not reflect these differences. In contrast, increase in pAMPK upon NE is higher in IF1 overexpressing cells compared to EV (Figure 2H), but again this is not reflected in western blot quantification (Figure 2I).
      4. Does NE promote decrease of IF1 expression in control (siScramble and EV) adipocytes? The authors should test it and see whether it goes in the same direction as the observations derived from the experiments in cold exposed mice. This is very important point, as it could explain the lack of an additional effect of IF1 silencing on NE-induced depolarization (Figure 2E).
      5. Does NE promote decrease of IF1 expression in the scramble and EV adipocytes? The authors should test it and see whether it goes in the same direction as the observations derived from the experiments in cold exposed mice.
      6. For MMP data in Fig2, they should include significance between non treated and NE-treated groups. They say: "While UCP1 ablation did not cause any effect on MMP upon adrenergic stimulation...", but NE caused (probably significant) depolarization in siUCP1, which seems even stronger than depolarization in EV. This is opposite to what you would expect. They also didn't confirm UCP1 silencing with western blot.
      7. It has been establish that decreased expression of IF1 promotes increase in the reverse activity of Complex V, ATP hydrolytic activity. Increase in ATP hydrolysis also affects ECAR. The authors should consider this when calculating the contribution of ATP glycolysis versus ATP OXPHOS since the ATP hydrolysis is also playing a role in the ECAR increase. The data should be reinterpreted. ATP hydrolysis should be measured in the situation where IF1 is silenced and overexpressed. These measurements can be done in cells using the seahorse.
      8. The authors use GAPDH as loading control in western blots. They should use another protein since GAPDH is part of the intermediary metabolism and plays a role in glycolysis.
      9. The authors show that reduction of IF1 involves more lipid utilization. They should include more experiments showing the connection of the metabolic adaptation in the absence of IF1 and some lipid imaging.
      10. In the text, "Despite this adjustment of experimental conditions, we did not detect any effect of IF1 ablation on mitochondrial oxygen consumption (Supplementary Fig. 3A,B)", this is true for baseline, NE-driven and ATP-linked respiration, but what about maximal respiration? There is a huge increase in IF1 knockdown... They should explain these results.
      11. In Figure 3K they present OCR as % of baseline, but in a similar experiment in Figire 4G it is OCR/protein, they should make the Y axis consistent across experiments.
      12. The graphical abstract is confusing. In BAT there are two populations of mitochondria, the cytosolic and the mitochondria attached to the lipid droplet, peridroplet mitochondria (PDM). Upon adrenergic stimulation, PDM leave the lipid droplet and lipolysis takes place. The authors propose that upon adrenergic stimulation, IF1 is reduced and there is lipid mobilization. The part of the scheme where it says "fully recruited" should be removed or rewritten, since adrenergic stimulation is not compatible with mitochondria recruitment around the lipid droplet.
      13. The title should be rewritten to better reflect the research presented in the manuscript.

      Minor comments:

      1. Some of the Y axis should be corrected. For example, in Figure 2J, L and M should say % of EV untreated, Similarly, in Figure 2E, it should say % of scramble untreated. In Figure 3N, the Y axis is misspelled. All the Y axis referring to percentages should have the same scale for comparison purposes.
      2. The authors should describe better the results corresponding to Figure 2. There is a lot of information and they should improve the description pertaining the connection between the different pieces of data relating the different signaling pathways that are shown. For westerns in this Figure, they should provide some rationale (one to two sentences in the results section) as to why they are checking the expression of pAMPK and p38-MAPK.

      Here are some comments referring to the methods section:

      1. For Complex V hydrolytic activity, the reaction buffer contains 10mM Na-azide. I guess this is to inhibit respiration, but wouldn't azide also inhibit complex V at this concentration?
      2. In the mitochondrial isolation protocol, they say "mitochondria were centrifuged at 800g for 10min..." Will this speed pellet the mitochondria? I think this is a mistake in writing.
      3. For the safranin-O experiment, they don't mention mitochondrial substrate used, probably it's in the reference that they provide, but I think it should be included in the text.

      Significance

      The manuscript is well written, and it flows well when reading. However, there are some additional experiments that need to be performed to reach the conclusions the authors claim.

      The role of ATP hydrolysis in BAT thermogenesis is novel and interesting as it can sed some light onto potential approaches to promotes BAT activation.

    1. la bonne est claire, formelle et non ambiguë

      "Le projet frégéen d'une théorie du monde provient de la volonté de réformer la langue naturelle pour obtenir des raisonnements sûrs et fiables sur les objet du monde. D'une langue ambiguë et imprécise, on obtient une langue artificielle univoque et précise." Bachimont, B. (2007). Ingénierie des connaissances et des contenus : Le numérique entre ontologies et documents. Hermes science publications. p. 111 "En résumé, les propriétés qu'on exige d'un système notationnel sont la non-ambiguité, la disjointure et la différence syntaxique et sémantiques. Il ne s'agit en aucune façon de simple recommandations pour rendre une notation bonne et utile mais ce sont les traits qui distinguent les systèmes notationnels - bon ou mauvais - des systèmes non notationnels." Goodman, N., & Morizot, J. (1990). Langages de l’art : Une approche de la théorie des symboles. J. Chambon. p. 191 "Dans ce cas limite d'un langage spécialisé de logique formelle, le but est diamétralement opposé à celui de pouvoir moduler le sens d'un mot à l'aide de son contexte : on y cherche au contraire l'unicité stricte de la signification de chaque signe d'étiquetage, afin d'assurer aux trajets déductifs une rigueur parfaite, à l'abri de toute ambiguïté.[...] Si dans le cadre de tel ou tel langage spécialisé on veut disposer d'un référent non ambigu du mot 'réel' alors il ne faut pas rechercher ce référent, il ne faut pas vouloir le découvrir, il faut le CONSTRUIRE." Mugur-Schächter, M. (2009). L’infra-mécanique quantique : Une révolution épistémologique révélée dans les descriptions de microétats. Dianoia. p. 36 "L'indexicalité n'est pas, dans cette optique, un "défaut" des langues naturelles, mais une propriétés. Aussi bien, la réduction qui consiste à substituer des énoncés "objectifs" (i.e; dénués d'ambiguïté) à ces énoncés "naturellement" indexicaux serait nécessairement vouée à l'échec." Amiel, P. H. L. (2010). Ethnométhodologie appliquée : Éléments de sociologie praxéologique. Presses du LEMA. p. 50 "Rappelons pourtant qu’un même plan de réel observable peut générer, via des choix divers de propriétés qualifiantes, des regards divergents, quoique tous recevables en termes de représentation valide, quant à une même réalité. Une<br /> représentation ou une vue relèvent ainsi d’un choix parmi une infinité potentielle de possibles." Leleu-Merviel, S. (2010). Le sens aux interstices, émergence de reliances complexes. Complexité 2010, http://www.trigone.univ-lille1.fr/complexite2010/programme/B2.4-T_Leleu.pdf. http://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-00526508 p. 18

      Difficle de trancher la bonnne et la mauvaise définition sauf peut-être en concevant une éthique évaluant leurs puissances existentielles : "sera dit bon (ou libre, ou raisonnable, ou fort) celui qui s'efforce, autant qu'il est en lui, d'organiser les rencontres, de s'unir à ce qui convient avec sa nature, de composer son rapport avec des rapports convenables, et, par là, d'augmenter sa puissance. Car la bonté est affaire de dynamisme, de puissance, et de composition de puissances. Sera dit mauvais, ou esclave, ou faible, on insensé, celui qui vit au hasard des rencontres, se contente d'en subir les effets, quitte à gémir et accuser chaque fois que l'effet subi se montre contraire et lui relève sa propre impuissance." Deleuze, G. (2003). Spinoza. : Philosophie pratique ([Nouv. éd.]). Editions de Minuit. p. 35

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      Reply to the reviewers

      Manuscript number: RC-2023-02218R

      Corresponding author(s): Steven, McMahon

      1. General Statements [optional]

      *We were pleased to receive the encouraging critiques and very much appreciate the Reviewer's specific comments and suggestions. In this revised version of our manuscript, we have made a number of substantive additions and modifications in response to these comments/suggestions. We hope you agree that the study is now improved to the point where it is suitable for publication. *

      2. Point-by-point description of the revisions

      Reviewer #1 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      Summary This study describes efforts to characterize differences in the roles of the two related human decapping factors Dcp1a and Dcp1b by assessing mRNA decay and protein associations in knockdown and knockout cell lines. The authors conclude that these proteins are non-redundant based on the observations that loss of DCp1a versus Dcp1b impacts the decapping complex (interactome) and the transcriptome differentially.

      Major comments • While the experiments appear to be well designed and executed and the data of generally high quality, the conclusions are drawn without sufficient consideration for the fact that these two proteins form a heterotrimeric complex. The authors assume that there are distinct homotrimeric complexes rather than a single complex with both proteins in. Homotrimers may have new/different functions not normally seen when both proteins are expressed. Thus while it is acceptable to infer that the functions of these two proteins within the decapping complex are distinct, it is not clear that they act separately, or that complexes naturally exist without one or the other. A careful evaluation of the relative ratios of Dcp1a and b overall and in decapping complexes would be informative if the authors want to make stronger statements about the roles of these two factors.

      RESPONSE: Thank you for this valuable comment. We have substantially edited the manuscript to incorporate these points. Examples include a detailed analysis of iBAQ values for the DDX6, DCP1a, and DCP1b interactomes (which now allows us to estimate the ratios of DCP1a and DCP1b in these complexes) and cellular fractionation to interrogate complex integrity (using Superose 6).

      • The concept of buffering is not adequately introduced and the interpretation of observations that RNAs with increased half life do not show increased protein abundance - that Dcp1a/b are involved in transcript buffering is nebulous. In order to support this interpretation, the mRNA abundances (NOT protein abundances) should be assessed, and even then, there is no way to rule out indirect effects. RESPONSE: Thank you for this comment. In the revised version of the manuscript, we introduced the concept of transcript buffering at an earlier stage as one of the potential explanations for our findings. We were also able to use a new algorithm (grandR) to estimate half-lives and synthesis rates from our data. These new data add strength to the argument that DCP1a and DCP1b are linked to transcript buffering pathways.

      • It might be interesting to see what happens when both factors are depleted to get an idea of the overall importance of each one.

      RESPONSE: In our work we tried to emphasize the differences between the two paralogs. We believe that doing double knockout or knockdown would mask the distinct impacts of the paralogs. In data not included in this study, we have shown that cells lacking both DCP1a and DCP1b are viable. We did check PARP cleavage in the CRISPR generated cell pools of DCP1a KO, DCP1b KO, and the double KO. The WB measuring the PARP cleavage is shown in the supplemental material (Supplementary Material: Replicates)

      • The algorithms etc used for data analysis should be included at the time of publication. Version number and settings used for SMART to define protein domains, and webgestalt should be indicated

      RESPONSE: We apologize for this oversight. Version number and settings used for the webtools (SMART, Webgestalt) are now included. The analysis pipeline for half-lives and synthesis rates estimation as well as all the files and the code needed to generate the figures in the paper are available on zenodo (https://zenodo.org/records/10725429).

      • Statistical analysis is not provided for the IP experiments, the number of replicates performed is not indicated and quantification of KD efficiency are not provided.

      RESPONSE: The number of replicates performed in each experiment is now clearly indicated and quantifications of knockdown efficiency are provided (Supplemental Figure 3A and 3B, Figure 3A, Figure 3B).

      • The possibility that the IP Antibody interferes with protein-protein interactions is not mentioned.

      RESPONSE: Thank you for this comment. The revised manuscript includes a discussion of the antibody epitope location and the potential for impact on protein-protein interactions.

      Minor comments • P4 - "This translational repression of mRNA associated with decapping can be reversed, providing another point at which gene expression can be regulated (21)" - implies that decapping can be reversed or that decapped RNAs are translated. I don't think this is technically true.

      RESPONSE: There have been several studies that document the reversal of decapping. These findings are summarized in the following reviews.

      Schoenberg, D. R., & Maquat, L. E. (2009). Re-capping the message. Trends in biochemical sciences, 34(9), 435-442.

      Trotman, J. B., & Schoenberg, D. R. (2019). A recap of RNA recapping. Wiley Interdisciplinary Reviews: RNA, 10(1), e1504.

      • P11 - how common is it for higher eukaryotes to have 2 DCP genes? *RESPONSE: Metazoans have 2 DCP1 genes. *

      • Fig S1 - says "mammalian tissues" in the text but the data is all human. The statement that "expression analyses revealed that DCP1a and DCP1b have concordant rather than reciprocal expression patterns across different mammalian tissues (Supplemental Figure 1)" is a bit misleading as no evidence for correlation or anti-correlation is provided. Also co-expression is not strong support for the idea that these genes have non-redundant functions. Both genes are just expressed in all tissues - there's no evidence provided that they are concordantly expressed. In bone marrow it may be worth noting that one is high and the other low - i.e. reciprocal. *RESPONSE: We appreciate this comment. We have corrected the interpretation of the aforementioned dataset. We have also incorporated a more detailed discussion in the text of the paper. As the Reviewer pointed out, there are a subset of tissues where their expression appears to be reciprocal. *

      • Fig 1A - it is not clear what the different colors mean. Does Sc DCP1 have 1 larger EVH or 2 distinct ones. Are the low complexity regions in Sc DCP2 the SLiMs. *RESPONSE: Thank you for this comment. We have corrected this ambiguity to reflect that Sc DCP1 has one EVH1 domain that is interconnected by a flexible hinge. The low-complexity regions typically contain short linear motifs (SLIMs), however, not all low-complexity regions have been verified to contain them. In the figure, only low-complexity regions are shown. The text of the paper refers only to verified SLIMs . *

      • P11 - why were HCT116 cells selected? RESPONSE: HCT116 cells are an easily transfectable human cell line and have been widely used in biochemical and molecular studies, including studies of mRNA decapping (see references below). Since decapping is impacted by viral proteins we avoided the use of other commonly used cell models such as HEK293T or HeLa.

      https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=decapping+hct116&sort=date&size=200

      • Fig 1B - what are the asterisks by the RNA names? Might be worth noting that over-expression of DCP1b reduced IP of DCP1a. There's no quantification and no indication of the number of times this experiment was repeated. Data from replicates and quantification of the knockdown efficiency in each replicate would be nice to see. *RESPONSE: Thank you for this comment. Asterisks indicate that those bands were from a second gel, as DCP1a and DCP1b run at approximately the same molecular weight. We have now included a note in our figure legend to indicate this. The knockdown efficiency is provided (Figure 3 and Supplemental Figure 3). We also noted the number of replicas for each IP in figure 1. The replicas are provided as supplementary material (Supplementary Materials: Replicates). *

      • Fig 1C/1D - why are there 3 bands in the DCP1a blot? Quantification of the IP bands is necessary to say whether there is an effect or not of over-expression/KO. RESPONSE: The additional bands in DCP1a blots are background. When we stained the whole blot for DCP1a, in cells which with complete DCP1a KO cells (clone A3), these bands still appear (Supplementary Material: Validation of the KO clones). Quantifications of the bands in the overexpression experiments is now provided.

      • Fig 3 - is it possible that differences are due to epitope positions for the antibodies used for IP? RESPONSE: We do not believe so. DCP1a antibody binds roughly 300-400 residues on DCP1a, and DCP1b antibody binds around Val202. Antibodies therefore do not bind DCP1a or DCP1b low-complexity regions (which are largely responsible for interacting with the decapping complex interactome). Antibodies don't bind the EVH1 domains or the trimerization domain, which are needed for their interaction with DCP2 and each other.

      • Fig 5A - the legend doesn't match the colors in the figure. It is not clear how the pRESPONSE: Thank you for this comment. We have corrected this issue in the revised version of the paper. High-confidence proteins are those with pRESPONSE: Thank you for this comment. We have corrected this issue in the revised version of the paper.*

      • There are a few more recent studies on buffering that should be cited and more discussion of this in the introduction is necessary if conclusions are going to be drawn about buffering. *RESPONSE: We have included a discussion of transcript buffering in the introduction. *

      • The heatmaps in figure 2 are hard to interpret. RESPONSE: To clarify the heatmaps, we included a more detailed description in the figure legends, have enlarged the heatmaps themselves, and have added more extensive labeling.

      Reviewer #1 (Significance (Required)):

      • Strengths: The experiments appear to be done well and the datasets should be useful for the field. • Limitations: The results are overinterpreted - different genes are affected by knocking down one or other of these two similar proteins but this does not really tell us all that much about how the two proteins are functioning in a cell where both are expressed. • Audience: This study will appeal most to a specialized audience consisting of those interested in the basic mechanisms of mRNA decay. Others may find the dataset useful. • This study might complement and/or be informed by another recent study in BioRXiv - https://doi.org/10.1101/2023.09.04.556219 • My field of expertise is mRNA decay - I am qualified to evaluate the findings within the context of this field. I do not have much experience of LC-MS-MS and therefore cannot evaluate the methods/analysis of this part of the study.

      Reviewer #2 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      The authors provide evidence that Dcp1a and Dcp1b - two paralogous proteins of the mRNA decapping complex - may have divergent functions in a cancer cell line. In the first part, the authors show that interaction of Dcp2 with EDC4 is diminished upon depletion of Dcp1a but not affected by depletion of Dcp1b. The results have been controlled by overexpression of Dcp1b as it may be limiting factor (i.e. expression levels too low to compensate for depletion of Dcp1a reduced interaction with EDC3/4 while depletion of Dcp1b lead to opposite and increase interactions). They then defined the protein interactome of DDX6 in parental and Dcp1a or Dcp1b depleted cells. Here, the authors show some differential association with EDC4 again, which is along results shown in the first part. The authors further performed SLAM-seq and identified subsets of mRNA whose decay rates are common but also different upon depletion with Dcp1a and Dcp1b. Interestingly, it seems that Dcp1a preferentially targets mRNAs for proteins regulating lymphocyte differentiation. To further test whether changes in RNA decay rates are also reflected at the protein levels, they finally performed an MS analysis with Dcp1a/b depleted cells. However no significant overlap with mRNAs showing altered stability could be observed; and the authors suggested that the lack of congruence reflects translational repression.

      Major comments: 1. While functional difference between Dcp1a and Dcp1b are interesting and likely true, there are overinterpretations that need correction or further evidence for support. Sentences like "DCP1a regulates RNA cap binding proteins association with the decapping complex and DCP1b controls translational initiation factors interactions (Figure 2E)" sound misleading. While differential association with proteins has been recognised with MS-data, it does not necessary implement an active process of control/regulation. To make the claim on 'control/regulation', and inducible system or introduction of mutants would be required.

      RESPONSE: This set of comments were particularly useful in helping us refine the presentation of our findings. We have edited our manuscript to be more specific about the limits of our data.

      1. The MS analysis is not clearly described in the text and it is unclear how authors selected high-confident proteins. The reader needs to consider the supplemental tables to find out what controls were used. Furthermore, the authors should show correlation plots of MS data between replicates. For instance, there seems to be limited correlation among some of the replicates (e.g. Dcp1b_ko3 sample, Fig. 2c). Any explanation in this variance?

      *RESPONSE: We have now included a clear description of how all high-confidence proteins were selected in the Methods and Results sections. The revised manuscript also includes a more thorough description of the controls used and the number of replicates for individual experiments. The PCA plots have now been included where appropriate. The variance in this sample is likely technical. *

      1. GO analysis for the proteome analysis should consider the proteome and not the genome as the background. The authors should also indicate the corrected P-values (multiple testing) FDRs.

      *RESPONSE: Webgestalt uses a reference set of IDs to recognize the input IDs, and it does not use it for the background analysis in the classical sense. We repeated a subset of our proteome analyses using the 'genome-protein coding' as background and obtained the same result as in our original analysis. All ontology analyses now include raw p-values and/or FDRs when appropriate. *

      1. Fig 2E. The figures display GO enrichments needs better explanation and additional data can be added. The enrichment ratio is not explained (is this normalised?) and p-values and FDRs, number of proteins in respective GO category should be added. *RESPONSE: More thorough explanations of the GO enrichments are now included. The supplemental data contains all p-values (raw and adjusted), as well as the number of proteins in each GO category. The Enrichment ratio is normalized and contains information about the number of proteins that are redundant in multiple groups. GO Ontology analyses are now displayed with p-values and/or FDR values, and in this case the enrichment ratio contains information regarding the number of proteins found in our input set and the number of expected proteins in the GO group. The network analysis shows the FDR values and the number of proteins found in the groups compared. *

      Minor: 5. These studies were performed in a colorectal carcinoma cell line (HCT116). The authors should justify the choice of this specialised cell line. Furthermore, one wonders whether similar conclusions can be drawn with other cell lines or whether findings are specific to this cancer line.

      RESPONSE: The study that is currently in pre-print in BioRxiv (https://doi.org/10.1101/2023.09.04.556219*) utilized HEK293Ts and found similar results to ours when examining the various relationships between the core decapping core members. *

      1. Fig. 1B. It is unclear what DCP1b* refers to? There are bands of different size that are not mentioned by the authors - are those protein isoforms or what are those referring to? A molecular marker should be added to each Blots. Uncropped Western images and markers should be provided in the Supplement. *RESPONSE: The asterisk indicates that these images came from a second western blot gel (DCP1a and DCP1b have a similar molecular weight and cannot be probed on the same membrane). Uncropped western blot images and markers (as available) are provided in the supplement. *

      2. MS data submitted to public repository with access. No. indicated in the manuscript.

      RESPONSE: MS data is submitted as supplementary datasets to the paper. It contains the analyzed data as well as the LCMSMS output. We are in the process of submitting the raw LSMSMS data to a public repository.

      Fig 3. A Venn Diagram displaying the overlap of identified proteins should be added. GO analysis should be done considering the proteome as background (as mentioned above).

      *RESPONSE: A Venn diagram showing the overlap among the proteins identified is now included in the revised version. *

      Reviewer #2 (Significance (Required)):

      Overall, this is a large-scale integrative -omics study that suggest functional difference between Dcp1 paralogues. While it seems clear that both paralogous have some different functions and impact, there are overinterpretations in place and further evidence would to be provided to substantiate conclusions made in the paper. For instance, while the interactions with Dcp2/Ddx6 in the absence of Dcp1a,b with EDC4/3 may be altered (Fig. 1, 2), the functional implications of this changed associations remains unresolved and not further discussed. As such, it remains somehow disconnected with the following experiments and compromises the flow of the study. The observed differences in decay-rates for distinct functionally related sets of mRNAs is interesting; however, it remains unclear whether those are direct or rather indirect effects. This is further obscured by the absence of any correlation to changes in protein levels, which the authors interpreted as 'transcriptional buffering'. In this regard, it is puzzling how the authors can make a statement about transcriptional buffering? While this may be an interesting aspect and concept of the discussion, there is no primary data showing such a functional impact.

      As such, the study is interesting as it claims functional differences between DCP1a/b paralogous in a cancer cell line. Nevertheless, I am not sure how trustful the MS analysis and decay measurements are as there is not further validation. It woudl be interesting if the authors could go a bit further and draw some hypothesis how the selectivty could be achieved i.e interaction with RNA-binding proteins that may add some specificity towards the target RNAs for differential decay. As such, the study remains unfortunately rather descriptive without further functional insight.

      Reviewer #3 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      Review on "Non-redundant roles for the human mRNA decapping cofactor paralogs DCP1a and DCP1b" by Steven McMahon and co-workers mRNA decay is a critical step in the regulation of gene expression. In eukaryotes, mRNA turnover typically begins with the removal of the poly(A) tail, followed by either removal of the 5' cap structure or exonucleolytic 3'-5' decay catalyzed by the exosome. The decapping enzyme DCP2 forms a complex with its co-activator DCP1, which enhances decapping activity. Mammals are equipped with two DCP1 paralogs, namely DCP1a and DCP1b. Metazoans' decapping complexes feature additional components, such as enhancer of decapping 4 (EDC4), which supports the interaction between DCP1 and DCP2, thereby amplifying the efficiency of decapping. This work focuses on DCP1a and DCP1b and investigates their distinct functions. Using DCP1a- and DCP1a-specific knockdowns as well as K.O. cell lines, the authors find surprising differences between the DCP1 paralogs. While DCP1a is essential for the assembly of EDC4-containig decapping complexes and interactions with mRNA cap binding proteins, DCP1b mediates interactions with the translational machinery. Furthermore, DCP1a and DCP1b target different mRNAs for degradation, indicating that they execute non-overlapping functions. The findings reported here expand our understanding of mRNA decapping in human cells, shedding light on the unique contributions of DCP1a and DCP1b to mRNA metabolism. The manuscript tackles an interesting subject. Historically, the emphasis has been on studying DCP1a, while DCP1b has been deemed a functionally redundant homolog of DCP1a. Therefore, it is commendable that the authors have taken on this topic and, with the help of knockout cell lines, aimed to dissect the function of DCP1a and DCP1b. Despite recognizing the significance of the subject and approach, the manuscript falls short of persuading me. Following a promising start in Figure 1 (which still has room for improvement), there is a distinct decline in overall quality, with only relatively standard analyses being conducted. However, I do not want to give the authors a detailed advice on maximizing the potential of their data and presenting it convincingly. So, here are just a few key points for improvement: Figure 1C: Upon closer examination, a faint band is still visible at the size of DCP1a in the DCP1a knockout cells. Could this be leaky expression of DCP1a? The authors should provide an in-depth characterization of their cells (possibly as supplementary material), including identification of genomic changes (e.g. by sequencing of the locus) and Western blots with longer exposure, etc.

      *RESPONSE: Thank you for this comment. The in-depth characterization of our cells is now included in the Supplementary Material. DCP1a KO cells and DCP1b KO cells indicated as single cell clones have been confirmed to have no DCP1a or DCP1b expression. In Figure 1D and Figure 3, polyclonal pool cells were used as indicated (only for DCP1a KO). *

      Figure 2: It is great to see that the effects of the KOs are also visible in the DDX6 immunoprecipitation. However, I wonder if the IP clearly confirms that the KO cells indeed do not express DCP1a or DCP1b. In the heatmap in Figure 2B, it appears as if the proteins are only reduced by a log2-fold change of approximately 1.5? Additionally, Figure 2 shows a problem that persists in the subsequent figures. The visual presentation is not particularly appealing, and essential details, such as the scale of the heatmap in 2B (is it log2 fold?), are lacking.

      *RESPONSE: The in-depth characterization of our cells is included in the Supplementary Materials and confirms the presence of single-cell clones where indicated. As noted above, only Figure 1D and Figure 3 used DCP1a KO pooled cells. The heatmap in Figure 2B is scaled by row using the pheatfunction in R studio. The actual data for the heatmap comes from protein intensities from the LC-MS/MS analysis. We have improved the visual presentation in the revised manuscript. *

      Figure 3: I wonder why there are no primary data shown here, only processed GO analyses. Wouldn't one expect that DCP2 interacts mainly with DCP1a, but less with DCP1b? Is this visible in the data? Moreover, such analyses are rather uninformative (as reflected in the GO terms themselves, for instance, "oxoglutarate dehydrogenase complex" doesn't provide much meaningful insight). The authors should rather try to derive functional and mechanistic insights from their data.

      RESPONSE: We have now revised this Figure to include primary data as well as the IP of DCP1a in DCP1b KO cells (single cell clones) and the IP of DCP1b in DCP1a KO cells (pooled cells). We identified EDC3 in the high-confidence protein pool. The EDC3:DCP1a interaction is enhanced in DCP1b KO cells. We also found that the EDC3:DCP1b interaction is less abundant in DCP1a KO cells. This is consistent with our data in Figures 1 and 2. DCP2 was not identified in the interactomes of either DCP1a or DCP1b. This is not unusual as DCP2 is highly flexible and the association between DCP1s with DCP2 is transient and facilitated by other proteins.

      In Fig. 4 the potential of the approach is not fully exploited. Firstly, I would advocate for omitting the GO analyses, as, in my opinion, they offer little insight. Again, crucial information is missing to assess the results. While 75 nt reads are mentioned in the methods, the sequencing depth remains unspecified. Figure 4b should be included in the supplements. Furthermore, I strongly recommend concentrating on insights into the mechanisms of DCP1a and DCP1b-containing complexes. E.g. what characteristics distinguish DCP1a and DCP1b-dependent mRNAs? Are these targets inherently unstable? Why are they degraded? Are they known decapping substrates?

      *RESPONSE: Thank you for this comment. We have now revised this figure and have included information about sequencing depth and other pertinent information. We have been able to use a newly available algorithm (grandR) and were able to estimate half-lives and synthesis rates. This is a significant addition to the paper. We were also able to compare significantly impacted mRNAs (by DCP1a or DCP1b loss) to the established DCP2 target list. *

      In general, I suggest the authors revise the manuscript with a focus on the potential readers. Reduce Gene Ontology (GO) analyses and heatmaps, and instead, incorporate more analyses regarding the molecular processes associated with the different decapping complexes.

      *RESPONSE: We removed selected GO analyses and heatmaps from the main body of the manuscript (included as Supplementary Figures instead). For our LC-MS/MS datasets, we added iBAQ analyses of the DDX6 IP, DCP1a IP, and DCP1b IP in the control conditions. Cellular fractionation studies (using Superose 6 chromatography) were also added to the paper and allow us to interrogate decapping complex composition in more detail. The revised version of the manuscript includes a new 4SU labeling experiment (pulse-chase) as well as estimation of half-lives and synthesis rates in our conditions. Also included is relevant information about DCP1b transcriptional regulation. *

      Reviewer #3 (Significance (Required)):

      The manuscript in its current form could benefit from substantial revisions for it to be considered impactful for researchers in the field.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      In this manuscript, Huang and colleagues explored the role of iron in bacterial therapy for cancer. Using proteomics, they revealed the upregulation of bacterial genes that uptake iron, and reasoned that such regulation is an adaptation to the iron-deficient tumor microenvironment. Logically, they engineered E. Coli strains with enhanced iron-uptake efficiency, and showed that these strains, together with iron scavengers, suppress tumor growth in a mouse model. Lastly, they reported the tumor suppression by IroA-E. Coli provides immunological memory via CD8+ T cells. In general, I find the findings in the manuscript novel and the evidence convincing.

      (1) Although the genetic and proteomic data are convincing, would it be possible to directly quantify the iron concentration in (1) E. Coli in different growth environments, and (2) tumor microenvironment? This will provide the functional consequences of upregulating genes that import iron into the bacteria.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment regarding the precise quantification of iron concentrations. In our study, we attempted various experimental approaches, including Immunohistochemistry utilizing an a Fe3+ probe, iron assay kit (ab83366), and Inductively Coupled Plasma Mass Spectrometry (ICP-MS). Despite these attempts, the quantification of oxidized Fe3+ concentrations proved challenging due to the inherently low levels of Fe ions and difficulty to distinguish Fe2+ and Fe3+. We observed measurements below the detection threshold of even the sensitive ICP-MS technique. To circumvent this limitation, we designed an experiment wherein bacteria were cultured in a medium supplemented with Chrome Azurol S (CAS) reagent, which colormetrically detects siderophore activity. We compared WT bacteria and IroA-expressing bacteria at varying levels of Lcn2 proteins. The outcome, as depicted in the updated Fig. 3b, reveals an enhanced iron acquisition capability in IroA-E. coli under the presence of Lcn2 proteins, in comparison to the wild-type E. coli strains. In addition to the Lcn2 study, the proteomic study in Figure 4 highlights the competitive landscape between cancer cells and bacteria. We observed that IroA-E. coli showed reduced stress responses and exerted elevated iron-associated stress to cancer cells, thus further supporting the IroA-E. coli’s iron-scavenging capability against nutritional immunity.

      (2) Related to 1, the experiment to study the synergistic effect of CDG and VLX600 (lines 139-175) is very nice and promising, but one flaw here is a lack of the measurement of iron concentration. Therefore, a possible explanation could be that CDG acts in another manner, unrelated to iron uptake, that synergizes with VLX600's function to deplete iron from cancer cells. Here, a direct measurement of iron concentration will show the effect of CDG on iron uptake, thus complementing the missing link.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment and would like to point the reviewer to our results in Figure S3, which shows that the expression of CDG enhances bacteria survival in the presence of LCN2 proteins, which reflects the competitive relationship between CDG and enterobactin for LCN2 proteins as previously shown by Li et al. [Nat Commun 6:8330, 2015]. We regret to inform the reviewer that direct measurement of iron concentration was attempted to no avail due to the limited sensitivity of iron detecting assays. We do acknowledge that CDG may exert different effects in addition to enhancing iron uptake, particularly the potentiation of the STING pathway. We pointed out such effect in Fig 2c that shows enhanced macrophage stimulation by the CDG-expressing bacteria. We would like to accentuate, however, that a primary objective of the experiment is to show that the manipulation of nutritional immunity for promoting anticancer bacterial therapy can be achieved by combining bacteria with iron chelator VLX600. The multifaceted effects of CDG prompted us to focus on IroA-E. coli in subsequent experiments to examine the role of nutritional immunity on bacterial therapy. We have updated the associated text to better convey our experimental design principle.

      Lines 250-268: Although statistically significant, I would recommend the authors characterize the CD8+ T cells a little more, as the mechanism now seems quite elusive. What signals or memories do CD8+ T cells acquire after IroA-E. Coli treatment to confer their long-term immunogenicity?

      We apologize for the overinterpretation of the immune memory response in our previous manuscript and appreciate the reviewer’s recommendation to further characterize CD8+ T cells post-IroA-E. coli treatment. Our findings, which show robust tumor inhibition in rechallenge studies, indicate establishment of anticancer adaptive immune responses. As the scope of the present work is aimed at demonstrating the value of engineered bacteria for overcoming nutritional immunity, expounding on the memory phenotypes of the resulting cellular immunity is beyond the scope of the study. We do acknowledge that our initial writing overextended our claims and have revised the manuscript accordingly. The revised manuscript highlights induction of anticancer adaptive immunity, attributable to CD8+ T cells, following the bacterial therapy.

      (3) Perhaps this goes beyond the scope of the current manuscript, but how broadly applicable is the observed iron-transport phenomenon in other tumor models? I would recommend the authors to either experimentally test it in another model or at least discuss this question.

      We highly appreciate the reviewer’s suggestion regarding the generalizability of the iron-transport phenomenon in diverse tumor models. To address this, we extended our investigations beyond the initial model, employing B16-F10 melanoma and E0771 breast cancer in mouse subcutaneous models. The results, as depicted in Figures 3g to 3j and Figure S5, demonstrate the superiority of IroA-E. coli over WT bacteria in tumor inhibition. These findings support the broad implication of nutritional immunity as well as the potential of iron-scavenging bacteria for different solid tumor treatments.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors provide strong evidence that bacteria, such as E. coli, compete with tumor cells for iron resources and consequently reduce tumor growth. When sequestration between LCN2 and bacterobactin is blocked by upregulating CDG(DGC-E. coli) or salmochelin(IroA-E.coli), E. coli increase iron uptake from the tumor microenvironment (TME) and restrict iron availability for tumor cells. Long-term remission in IroA-E.coli treated mice is associated with enhanced CD8+ T cell activity. Additionally, systemic delivery of IroA-E.coli shows a synergistic effect with chemotherapy reagent oxaliplatin to reduce tumor growth.

      Strengths:

      It is important to identify the iron-related crosstalk between E. coli and TME. Blocking lcn2-bacterobactin sequestration by different strategies consistently reduces tumor growth.

      Weaknesses:

      As engineered E.coli upregulate their function to uptake iron, they may increase the likelihood of escaping from nutritional immunity (LCN2 becomes insensitive to sequester iron from the bacteria). Would this raise the chance of developing sepsis? Do authors think that it is safe to administrate these engineered bacteria in mice or humans?

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment on the safety evaluation of the iron-scavenging bacteria. To address the concern, we assessed the potential risk of sepsis development by measuring the bacterial burden and performing whole blood cell analyses following intravenous injection of the engineered bacteria. As illustrated in Figures 3k and 3l, our findings indicate that the administration of these engineered bacteria does not elevate the risk of sepsis. The blood cell analysis suggests that mice treated with the bacteria eventually return to baseline levels comparable to untreated mice, supporting the safety of this approach in our experimental models.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Based on their observation that tumor has an iron-deficient microenvironment, and the assumption that nutritional immunity is important in bacteria-mediated tumor modulation, the authors postulate that manipulation of iron homeostasis can affect tumor growth. They show that iron chelation and engineered DGC-E. coli have synergistic effects on tumor growth suppression. Using engineered IroA-E. coli that presumably have more resistance to LCN2, they show improved tumor suppression and survival rate. They also conclude that the IroA-E. coli treated mice develop immunological memory, as they are resistant to repeat tumor injections, and these effects are mediated by CD8+ T cells. Finally, they show synergistic effects of IroA-E. coli and oxaliplatin in tumor suppression, which may have important clinical implications.

      Strengths:

      This paper uses straightforward in vitro and in vivo techniques to examine a specific and important question of nutritional immunity in bacteria-mediated tumor therapy. They are successful in showing that manipulation of iron regulation during nutritional immunity does affect the virulence of the bacteria, and in turn the tumor. These findings open future avenues of investigation, including the use of different bacteria, different delivery systems for therapeutics, and different tumor types.

      Weaknesses:

      • There is no discussion of the cancer type and why this cancer type was chosen. Colon cancer is not one of the more prominently studied cancer types for LCN2 activity. While this is a proof-of-concept paper, there should be some recognition of the potential different effects on different tumor types. For example, this model is dependent on significant LCN production, and different tumors have variable levels of LCN expression. Would the response of the tumor depend on the role of iron in that cancer type? For example, breast cancer aggressiveness has been shown to be influenced by FPN levels and labile iron pools.

      We highly appreciate the reviewer’s insightful comment on the varying LCN2 activities across different tumor types. In light of the reviewer’s suggestion, we extended our investigations beyond the initial colon cancer model, employing B16-F10 melanoma and E0771 breast cancer in mouse subcutaneous models. The results, as depicted in Figures 3g to 3j and Figure S5, demonstrate that IroA-E. coli consistently outperforms WT bacteria in tumor inhibition. We acknowledge the reviewer’s comment regarding LCN2 being more prominently examined in breast cancer and have highlighted this aspect in the revised manuscript. For colon and melanoma cancers, several reports have pointed out the correlation of LCN2 expression and the aggressiveness of these cancers [Int J Cancer. 2021 Oct 1;149(7):1495-1511][Nat Cancer. 2023 Mar;4(3):401-418], albeit to a lesser extent. These findings support the broad implication of nutritional immunity as well as the potential of iron-scavenging bacteria for different solid tumor treatments. The manuscript has been revised to reflect the reviewer’s insightful comment.

      • Are the effects on tumor suppression assumed to be from E. coli virulence, i.e. Does the higher number of bacteria result in increased immune-mediated tumor suppression? Or are the effects partially from iron status in the tumor cells and the TME?

      We appreciate the reviewer’s question regarding the therapeutic mechanism of IroA-E. coli. Bacterial therapy exerts its anticancer action through several different mechanisms, including bacterial virulence, nutrient and ecological competition, and immune stimulation. Decoupling one mechanism from another would be technically challenging and beyond the scope of the present work. With the objective of demonstrating that an iron-scavenging bacteria can elevate anticancer activity by circumventing nutritional immunity, we highlight our data in Fig. S6, which shows that IroA-E. coli administration resulted in higher bacterial colonization within solid tumors compared to WT-E. coli on Day 15. This increased bacterial presence supports our iron-scavenging bacteria design, and we highlight a few anticancer mechanisms mediated by the engineered bacteria. Firstly, as shown in Fig. 4d, IroA-E. coli is shown to induce an elevated iron stress response in tumor cells as the treated tumor cells show increased expression of transferrin receptors. Secondly, our experiments involving CD8+ T cell depletion indicates that the IroA-E. coli establishes a more robust anticancer CD8+ T cell response than WT bacteria. Both immune-mediated responses and alterations in iron status within the tumor microenvironment are demonstrated to contribute to the enhanced anticancer activity of IroA-E. coli in the present study.

      • If the effects are iron-related, could the authors provide some quantification of iron status in tumor cells and/or the TME? Could the proteomic data be queried for this data?

      We appreciate the reviewer’s query regarding the quantification of iron concentrations. In our study, we attempted various experimental approaches, including Immunohistochemistry utilizing an a Fe3+ probe, iron assay kit (ab83366), and Inductively Coupled Plasma Mass Spectrometry (ICP-MS). Despite these attempts, the quantification of oxidized Fe3+ concentrations proved challenging due to the inherently low levels of Fe ions and difficulty to distinguish Fe2+ and Fe3+. We observed measurements below the detection threshold of even the sensitive ICP-MS technique. Consequently, to circumvent this limitation, we designed an experiment wherein bacteria were cultured in a medium supplemented with Chrome Azurol S (CAS) reagent, which colormetrically detects siderophore activity. We compared WT bacteria and IroA-expressing bacteria at varying levels of Lcn2 proteins. The outcome, as depicted in the updated Fig. 3b, reveals an enhanced iron acquisition capability in IroA-E. coli under the presence of Lcn2 proteins, in comparison to the wild-type E. coli strains. In addition to the Lcn2 study, the proteomic study in Figure 4 highlights the competitive landscape between cancer cells and bacteria. We observed that IroA-E. coli showed reduced stress responses and exerted elevated iron-associated stress to cancer cells, thus further supporting the IroA-E. coli’s iron-scavenging capability against nutritional immunity.

      Reviewing Editor:

      The authors provide compelling technically sound evidence that bacteria, such as E. coli, can be engineered to sequester iron to potentially compete with tumor cells for iron resources and consequently reduce tumor growth. Long-term remission in IroA-E.coli treated mice is associated with enhanced CD8+ T cell activity and a synergistic effect with chemotherapy reagent oxaliplatin is observed to reduce tumor growth. The following additional assessments are needed to fully evaluate the current work for completeness; please see individual reviews for further details.

      We appreciate the editor’s positive comment.

      (1) The premise is one of translation yet the authors have not demonstrated that manipulating bacteria to sequester iron does not provide a potential for sepsis or other evidence that this does not increase the competitiveness of bacteria relative to the host. Only tumor volume was provided rather than animal survival and cause of death, but bacterial virulence is enhanced including the possibility of septic demise. Alternatively, postulated by the authors, that tumor volume is decreased due to iron sequestration but they do not directly quantify the iron concentration in (1) E. Coli in different growth environments, and (2) tumor microenvironment. These important endpoints will provide the functional consequences of upregulating genes that import iron into the bacteria.

      We appreciate the editor’s comment and have added substantial data to support the translational potential of the iron-scavenging bacteria. In particular, we added evidence that the iron-scavenging bacteria does not increase the risk of sepsis (Fig. 3k, l), evidence of increased bacteria competitiveness and survival in tumor (Fig. S6), and iron-scavenging bacteria’s superior anticancer ability and survival benefit across 3 different tumor models (Fig. 3e-j; Fig. S5). While direct measurement of iron concentration in the tumor environment is technically difficult due to the challenge in differentiating Fe2+ and Fe3+ by available techniques, we added a colormetric CAS assay to demonstrate the iron-scavenging bacteria can more effectively utility Fe than WT bacteria in the presence of LCN2 (Fig. 3b). These results substantiate the translational relevance of the engineered bacteria.

      (2) There is no discussion of the cancer type and why this cancer type was chosen. If the current tumor modulation system is dependent on LCN2 activity, there would need to be some recognition that different tumors have variable levels of LCN expression. Would the response of the tumor depend on the role of iron in that cancer type?

      We appreciate the comment and added relevant text and citations describing clinical relevance of LCN2 expression associated with the tumor types used in the study (breast cancer, melanoma, and colon cancer). Elevated LCN2 has been associated with higher aggressiveness for all three cancer types.

      (3) To demonstrate long-term anti-cancer memory was established through enhancement of CD8+ T cell activity (Fig 5c), the "2nd seeding tumor cells" experiment may need to be done in CD8 antibody-treated IronA mice since CD8+ T cells may play a role in tumor suppression regardless of whether or not iron regulation is being manipulated. It appears that the control group for this experiment is naive mice (and not WT-E. coli treated mice), in which case the immunologic memory could be from having had tumor/E. coli rather than the effect of IroA-E. coli.

      We acknowledge that our prior writing may have overstated our claim on immunological memory. Our intention is to show that upon treatment and tumor eradication by iron-scavenging bacteria, adaptive immunity mediated by CD8 T cells can be elicited. We also did not consider a WT-E. coli control as no WT-E. coli treated group achieved complete tumor regression. We have modified our text to reflect our intended message.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      All the figures seem to be in low resolution and pixelated. Please upload high-resolution ones.

      We have updated figures to high-resolution ones.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Some specific comments towards experiments:

      (1) For Fig 2 f/ Fig 3f/ Fig 5d/Fig6c, the survival rate is based on the tumor volume (the mouse was considered dead when the tumor volume exceeded 1,500 mm3). Did the mice die from the experiment (how many from each group)? If it only reflects the tumor size, do these figures deliver the same information as the tumor growth figure?

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment. The survival rate is indeed based on tumor volume, and we used a cutoff of 1500 mm3. No death event was observed prior to the tumors reaching 1500 mm3. Although the survival figures cover some of the information conveyed by the tumor volume tracking, the figures offer additional temporal resolution of tumor progression with the survival figures. Having both tumor volume and survival tracking are commonly adopted to depict tumor progression. We have the protocol regarding survival monitoring to the materials and method section.

      (2) Fig 3a, not sure if entE is a good negative control for this experiment. Neg. Ctrl should maintain its CFU/ml at a certain level regardless of Lcn2 conc. However, entE conc. is at 100 CUF/ml throughout the experiment suggesting there is no entE in media or if it is supersensitive to Lcn2 that bacteria die at the dose of 0.1nM?

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment. The △entE-E. coli was indeed observed to be highly sensitive to LCN2. We included the control to highlight the competitive relationship between entE and LCN2 for iron chelation, which is previously reported in literature [Biometals 32, 453–467 (2019)].

      (3) Fig 4, the authors harvested bacteria from the tumor by centrifuging homogenized samples at different speeds. Internal controls confirming sample purity (positive for bacteria and negative for cells for panels a,b,c; or vice versa for panel d) may be necessary. This comment may also apply to samples from Fig 1.

      We acknowledge the reviewer’s concern and would like to point out that the proteomic analysis was performed using a highly cited protocol that provides reference and normalization standards for E. coli proteins [Mol Cell Proteomics. 2014 Sep; 13(9): 2513–2526]. The reference is cited in the Materials and Method section associated with the proteomic analysis.

      (4) To demonstrate long-term anti-caner memory was established through enhancement of CD8+ T cell activity, the "2nd seeding tumor cells" experiment may need to be done in CD8 antibody-treated IronA mice.

      We have modified our claims to highlight that the tumor eradication by iron scavenging bacteria can establish adaptive anticancer immunity through the elicitation of CD8 T cells. We apologize for overstating our claim in the previous manuscript draft.

      Minor suggestions:

      (1) Please include the tumor re-challenge experiment in the method section.

      The re-challenge experiment has been added to the method section as instructed.

      (2) Please cite others' and your previous work. E.g. line 281, 282, line 306-307.

      We have added the citations as instructed.

      (3) Line 448, BL21 is bacteria, not cells.

      We have made the correction accordingly.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      • The authors postulate that IroA-E. coli is more potent than DGC-E. coli in resisting LCN2 activity, and that this potency is the cause of the increased tumor suppression of this engineered strain. If so, Fig 3a should include DGC-E. coli for direct comparison.

      We appreciate the reviewer for the comment and would like to clarify that we intended construct IroA-E. coli as a more specific iron-scavenging strategy, which can aide the discussion of nutritional immunity and minimize compounding factors from the immune-stimulatory effect of CDG. We have modified our text to clarify our stance.

      • The data refers to the effects of WT bacteria-mediated tumor suppression, e.g. Figure 3e shows that even WT bacteria have a significant suppressive effect on tumor growth. Could the authors provide background on what is known about the mechanism of this tumor suppression, outside of tumor targeting and engineerability? They only reference "immune system stimulation."

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment and would like to refer the reviewer to our recently published article [Lim et al., EMBO Molecular Medicine 2024; DOI: 10.1038/s44321-023-00022-w], which shows that in addition to immune system stimulation, WT bacteria can also be perceived as an invading species in the tumor that can exert differential selective pressure against cancer cells. Competition for nutrient is highlighted as a major contribution to contain tumor growth. In fact, the nutrient competition that we observed in the prior article inspired the design of the iron scavenging bacteria towards overcoming nutritional immunity. We have cited this recently published article to the revised manuscript to enrich the background.

      • The authors claim that there is immunologic memory because of tumor resistance in re-challenged mice after IroA-E. coli treatment (Fig 5c). It appears that the control group for this experiment is naive mice (and not WT-E. coli treated mice), in which case the immunologic memory could be from having had tumor/E. coli rather than the effect of IroA-E. coli.

      We have modified our claims to highlight that the tumor eradication by iron scavenging bacteria can establish adaptive anticancer immunity through the elicitation of CD8 T cells. We did not intend to highlight that the adaptive immunity stemmed from IroA-E. coli only, and we intend to build upon current literature that has reported CD8+ T cell elicitation by bacterial therapy. The IroA-E.coli is shown to enhance adaptive immunity. We also did not consider a WT-E. coli control as no WT-E. coli treated group achieved complete tumor regression.

      • The authors claim that CD8+ T cells are mechanistically important in the effects of iron status manipulation in E. coli-mediated tumor suppression (Fig 5). In order to show this, it seems that Fig 5c should include WT-E. coli and WT-E. coli+CD8 ab groups, as it may be that CD8+ T cells play a role in tumor suppression regardless of whether or not iron regulation is being manipulated.

      We apologize for the confusion from our prior writing. We have modified our claims to highlight that the tumor eradication by iron scavenging bacteria can establish adaptive anticancer immunity through the elicitation of CD8 T cells. We did not intend to convey that CD8+ T cells are mechanistically important in the effects of iron status manipulation.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      The reviewers thoughtful comments have helped us make the manuscript both more comprehensive and clearer. Thank you for your time and effort. We know that this is a long and technical paper. In our responses we refer to three documents:

      • Original: the first original submission

      • Revision: the revised document (02 MillardFranklinHerzog2023 v2.pdf)

      • Difference: a document that shows the changes made to text (but not figures or tables) from the original to revision (03 MillardFranklinHerzog2023 diff.pdf).

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) In general, the paper is well written and addresses important questions of muscle mechanics and muscle modeling. In the current version, the model limitations are briefly summarized in the abstract. However, the discussion needs a more complete description of limitations as well as a discussion of types of data (in vivo, ex vivo, single fiber, wholes muscle, MTU, etc.) that can be modeled using this approach.

      Please see the response to comment 23 for more details of the limitations that have been added to the revised document.

      (2) The choice of a model with several tendon parameters for simulating single muscle fiber experiments is not well justified.

      A rigid-tendon model with a slack length of zero was, in fact, used for these simulations for both the VEXAT and Hill models. In case this is still not clear: a rigid-tendon model of zero length is equivalent to no tendon at all. The text that first mentions the tendon model has now been modified to make it clearer that the parameters of the model were set to be consistent with no tendon at all:

      Please see the following text:

      Original:

      • page 17, column 1, line 28 ”... rigid tendon of zero length,”

      • page 17, column 1, line 51 ”... rigid tendon of zero length.”

      Revision:

      • page 19, column 1, line 19 ”... we used a rigid-tendon of zero length (equivalent to ignoring the tendon)”

      • page 19, column 1, line 38 ”... coupled with a rigid-tendon of zero-length.”

      Difference:

      • page 21, column 1, line 19 ”... we used a rigid-tendon... ”

      • page 21, column 1, line 45 ”... rigid-tendon of zero length ...”

      (3) A table that clarifies how all model parameters were estimated needs to be included in the main part of the manuscript.

      Two tables have been added to the manuscript that detail the parameters of the elastic-tendon cat soleus model (in the main body of the text) and the rabbit psoas fibril model (in an appendix). Each table includes:

      • A plain language parameter name

      • The mathematical symbol for the parameter

      • The value and unit of the parameter

      • A coded reference to the data source that indicates both the experimental animal and how the data was used to evaluate the parameter.

      Please see the following text:

      Revision:

      • page 11

      • page 42

      Difference:

      • page 11

      • page 46

      (4) The supplemental information is not properly referenced in the main text. There are a number of smaller issues that also need to be addressed.

      Thank for your attention to detail. The following problems related to Appendix referencing have been fixed:

      • Appendices are now parenthetically referenced at the end of a sentence. However, a few references to figures (that are contained within anAppendix) still appear in the body of the sentence since moving these figure references makes the text difficult to understand.

      • All Appendices are now referenced in the main body of the text.

      (5) Abstract, line 6: While it is commonly assumed that the short range stiffness of muscle is due to cross bridges, Rack & Westbury (1974) noted that it occurs over a distance of 25-35 nm, and that many cross-bridges must be stretched even farther than this distance (their p. 348 middle). It seems unlikely that cross-bridges alone can actually account for the short-range stiffness.

      There are three parts to our response to this comment:

      (a) Rack & Westbury’s definition of short-range-stiffness and unrealistic cross-bridge stretches

      (b) Rack & Westbury’s definition of short-range-stiffness vs. linear-timeinvariant system theory

      (c) Updates to the paper

      a. Rack & Westbury’s definition of short-range-stiffness and unrealistic cross-bridge stretches.

      As you note, on page 348, Rack and Westbury write that ”If the short range stiffness is to be explained in terms of extension of cross-bridges, then many of them must be extended further than the 25-35 nm mentioned above.” Having re-read the paper, its not clear how these three factors are being treated in the 25−35 nm estimate:

      • the elasticity of the tendon and aponeurosis,

      • the elasticity of actin and myosin filaments,

      • and the cycling rate of the cross-bridges.

      Obviously the elasticity of the tendon, aponeurosis, actin, and myosin filaments will reduce the estimated amount of crossbridge strain during Rack and Westbury’s experiments. A potentially larger factor is the cycling rate of each cross-bridge. If each crossbridge cycles faster than 11 Hz (the maximum frequency Rack and Westbury used), then no single crossbridge would stretch by 25-35 nm. So why didn’t Rack and Westbury consider the cycling rate of crossbridges?

      Rack and Westbury’s reasoned that a perfectly elastic work loop would necessarily mean that all crossbridges stayed attached: as soon as a crossbridge cycles it would release its stored elastic energy and the work loop would no longer be elastic. Since Rack and Westbury measured some nearly perfect elastic work loops (the smallest loops in Fig. 2,3, and 4), I guess they assumed crossbridges remained attached during the 25-35 nm crossbridge stretch estimate. However, even Rack and Westbury note that none of the work loops they measured were perfectly elastic and so there is room to entertain the idea that crossbridges are cycling.

      Fortunately, for this discussion, crossbridge cycling rates have been measured.

      In-vitro measurements by Uyeda et al. show that crossbridges are cycling at 30 Hz when moving at 0.5-1.2 length/s. At this rate, there would be enough time for a single crossbridge to cycle nearly 2.72 times for every cycle of the 11 Hz sinusoidal perturbations, reducing its expected strain from 25-35 nm down to 9.2−12.9µm. This effect becomes even more pronounced if crossbridge cycling rate is used to explain the difference in sliding velocity between Uyeda et al.’s in-vitro data (0.5-1.2 length/s) and the maximum contraction velocity of an in-situ cat soleus (4.65 lengths/s, Scott et al.).

      b. Rack & Westbury’s definition of short-range-stiffness vs. linear-time-invariant system theory

      Rack and Westbury defined short-range-stiffness to describe a specific kind of force response of the muscle to cyclical length changes:

      • muscle force is linear with length change,

      • and independent of velocity.

      Rack and Westbury’s definition therefore fails when viscous forces become noticeable, because viscous forces are velocity dependent.

      On line 6 of the abstract the term ‘short-range-stiffness’ is not used because Rack and Westbury’s definition is too narrow for our purposes. Instead we are using the more general approach of approximating muscle as a linear-timeinvariant (LTI) system, where it is assumed that

      • the response of the system is linear

      • and time invariant.

      To unpack that a little, a muscle is considered in the ‘short-range’ in our work if it meets the criteria of a linear time-invariant (LTI) system:

      • the force response of muscle can be accurately described as a linear function of its length and velocity (its state)

      • and its response is not a function of time (which means constant stimulation, and no fatigue).

      In contrast to Rack and Westbury’s definition, the ‘short-range’ in linear systems theory is general enough to accommodate both elastic and viscous forces. In physical terms, small for an LTI approximation of muscle is larger than the short-range defined by Rack and Westbury: an LTI system can include velocity dependence, while short-range-stiffness ends when velocity dependence begins.

      c. Updates to the paper

      To make the differences between Rack and Westbury’s ‘short-range-stiffness’ and LTI system theory clearer: - We have removed all occurrences of ‘short-range’ that were associated with Kirsch et al. and have replaced this phrase with ‘small’.

      • On the first mention of Kirsch’s work we have made the wording more specific

      Revision:

      • page 1, column 1, lines 4,5

      • page 1, column 2, lines 14-21 ”Under constant activation ...”

      Difference: page 1, column 2, line 19-26

      • page 1, column 1, lines 4,5

      • page 1, column 2, lines 20-27 ”Under constant activation ...”

      • A footnote has been added to contrast the definition of ‘small’ in the context of an linear time invariant system to ‘short-range’ in the context of Rack and Westbury’s definition of short-range-stiffness.

      Revision: page 1, column 2, bottom

      Difference: page 1, column 2, bottom

      • In addition, we have added a brief overview of LTI system theory to make the analysis and results more easily understood:

      Revision: Figure 4 paragraph beginning on page 10, column 2, line 15 ”As long as ...”

      Difference: Figure 4 paragraph beginning on page 12, column 1, line 46 ”As long as ...”

      (6) Page 3, lines 6-8: It also seems unlikely that 25% of cross-bridges are attached at one time (Howard, 1997) even for supramaximal isometric stimulation. The number should be less than 20%. What would the ratio of load path stiffness be for low force movements such as changing the direction of a frictionless manipulandum or slow walking? The range of relative stiffnesses is of more interest than the upper limit.

      We have made the following updates to address this comment:

      • A 20% duty cycle now defines the upper bound stiffness of the actinmyosin load path.

      • We have also evaluated the lower bound actin-myosin stiffness when a single crossbridge is attached.

      • The stiffness of titin from Kellermayer et al. has been digitized at a length of 2 µm and 4 µm to more accurately capture the length dependence of titin’s stiffness.

      • We have added a new figure (Figure 14) to make it easier to compare the range of actin-myosin stiffness to titin-actin stiffness.

      • The text in the main body of the paper and the Appendix has been updated.

      • The script ’main ActinMyosinAndTitinStiffness.m’ used to perform the calculations and generate the figure is now a part of the code repository.

      Please see the following text:

      Revision

      • The paragraph beginning at page 2, column 2, line 45 ”The addition of a titin element ...”

      • Appendix A

      • Figure 14 (in Appendix A)

      Difference

      • The paragraph beginning at page 3, column 1, line 6: ”The addition of a titin element ...”

      • Appendix A

      • Figure 14 (in Appendix A)

      (7) Page 5, line 12: A word seems to be missing here, ”...together to further...”.

      Thank you for your attention to detail. The sentence has been corrected.

      Please see the following text:

      • Revision: page 4, column 2, line 40 ”... into a single ...”

      • Difference: page 5, column 1, line 18

      (8) Page 5, line 24-27: These ”theories” are not mutually exclusive, and it is misleading to suggest they are. There is evidence for binding of titin to actin at multiple locations and there is no reason why evidence supporting one binding location must detract from the evidence supporting other binding locations.

      The text has been modified to make it clear to readers that the different titinactin binding locations are not mutually exclusive. Please see the following text:

      • Revision: page 5, column 1, lines 17-19, the sentence beginning ”As previously mentioned, ...”

      • Difference: page 5, column 1, lines 41-44

      (9) Page 5, lines 48-51: Should cite Kellermayer and Granzier (1996) not Kellermayer et al. (1997).

      The reference to ‘Kellermayer et al.’ has been changed to ‘Kellermayer and Granzier’. The comment that the year of the reference should be changed from (1997) to (1996) is confusing: the 1996 paper is being referenced.

      For further details please see:

      • Revision: page 5, column 1, 39-40

      • Difference: page 5, column 2, line 19-22

      (10) Also, Dutta et al. (2018) should be cited as further showing that N2A titin by itself slows actin motility on myosin.

      Thank you for the suggestion. The sentence has been modified to include Dutta et al.:

      For further details please see:

      • Revision: page 5, column 1, 40

      • Difference: page 5, column 2, line 19-22

      (11) Figure 2 legend and elsewhere: it is odd to say that experiments used ”a cat soleus” when more than one cat coleus was used. Change to ”cat coleus”. See also page 15, line 15.

      Thank you for your attention to detail. All occurrences of ‘a cat soleus’ have been changed, with some sentence revision, to ‘cat soleus’.

      (12) Page 6, line 10: It is not clear why an MTU was used to simulate single muscle fiber experiments. What is the justification for choosing this particular model? Also, the choice of model might explain why the version with stiff tendon performs better than the version with an elastic tendon, but this is never mentioned. Why not use a muscle model with no tendon (e.g., Wakeling et al., 2021 J. Biomech.)?

      Please see the response to comment 2.

      (13) Millard et al.’s activation dynamics model also fails to capture the lengthdependence of activation dynamics (Shue and Crago, 1998; Sandercock and Heckman, 1997), which should be noted in the discussion along with other limitations.

      An additional limitations paragraph is in the revised manuscript that addresses this comment specifically. However, we have used Stephenson and Wendt as a reference for the shift in peak isometric force that comes with submaximal activation. In addition, we also reference Chow and Darling for the property that the maximum shortening velocity is reduced with submaximal activations.

      • Revision: page 22, column 1, line 41 ”Finally, the VEXAT model ...”

      • Difference: page 24, column 2, line 12 ”Finally, the VEXAT model ...”

      In addition, please see the response to comment 23.

      (14) Page 6, line 22: ”An underbar...”.

      Thank you for your attention to detail, this correction has been made.

      (14) Page 7, lines 27-32: This and other issues should be described in the Discussion under a heading of model limitations.

      Please see the response to comment 23.

      (15) Page 7, lines 43-44: Numerous papers from the last author’s laboratory contradict the claim that there is no force enhancement on the ascending limb by demonstrating that force enhancement does occur on the ascending limb (see e.g., Leonard & Herzog 2002, Peterson et al., 2004 and several papers from the Rassier laboratory).

      Thank you for your attention to detail. This statement is in error and has been removed. To improve this section of the paper, a paragraph has been added to briefly mention the experimental observations of residual force enhancement before proceeding to explain how this phenomena is represented by the model.

      Please see the following text:

      Revision:

      • the paragraph starting on page 7, column 2, line 43 ”When active muscle is lengthened, ...”

      • and the following paragraph starting on page 8, column 1, line 3 “To develop RFE, ”

      Difference:

      • the paragraph starting on page 8, column 2, line 15

      • and the following paragraph starting on page 9, column 1, line 6

      (17) Figure 3 legend and elsewhere: The authors use Prado et al. (2005) to determine several titin parameters, however the simulations seem to focus on cat soleus, but Prado et al.’s paper is on rabbits. More clarity is needed about which specific results from which species and muscles were used to parameterize the model.

      The new parameter table includes coded entries to indicate the literature source for experimental data, the animal it came from, and how the data was used. For example, the ‘ECM fraction’ has a source of ‘R[57]’ to show that the data came from rabbits from reference 57. For further details, please see the response to comment #3

      Please see the following text:

      • Revision: page 11, column 2, table section H: ‘ECM fraction’.

      • Difference: page 11, column 2, table section H: ‘ECM fraction’.

      To address this comment in a little more detail, we have had to use Prado et al. (2005) to give us estimates for only one parameter: P, the fraction of the passive force-length relation that is due to titin. Prado et al.’s measurements relating to P are unique to our knowledge: these are the only measurements we have to estimate P in any muscle, cat soleus or otherwise. Here we use the average of the values for P across the 5 muscles measured by Prado et al. as a plausible default value for all of our simulations.

      (18) Figure 4 seems unnecessary.

      Figure 4 has been removed.

      (19) Page 10, lines 17-18: provide the abbreviation (VAF) here with the definition (variance accounted for).

      Thank you for your attention to detail. The abbreviation has been added.

      Please see these parts of the manuscripts for details:

      • Revision: page 12, column 2, line 13

      • Difference: page 13, column 2, line 32

      (20) Page 11, lines 2-3: Here and elsewhere, it is clear that some model parameters have been optimized to fit the model. The main paper should include a table that lists all model parameters and how they were chosen or optimized, including but not limited to the information in Table 1 of the supplemental information section.

      See response to comment 3.

      (20) Page 17, lines 45 -49: Again, a substantial number of ad hoc adjustments to the model appear to be required. These should be described in the Discussion under limitations, and accounted for in the parameters table. See also legends to Fig. 12 and 13, page 19, lines 23-26.

      Please see the response to comment #3: a coded entry now appears to indicate the data source, the animal used in the experiment, and the method used to process the data. This includes entries for parameters which were estimated

      ‘E’ so that the model produced acceptable results in the simulations presented. In addition, the new discussion paragraph includes a number of sentences that use the adjustment to the active-titin-damping coefficient as an opening to discuss the limitations of the VEXAT’s titin-actin bond model and the circumstances under which the model’s parameters would need to be adjusted.

      Please see responses to comments 3 and 23 for additional details. In addition, please see the specific discussion text mentioning the change to βoPEVK:

      • Revision: page 22, column 1, line 30 ”In Sec. 3.3 we had ...”

      • Difference: page 24, column 1, line 49

      (22) Page 20, lines 50-11: It should be noted here that Tahir et al.’s (2018) model has both series and parallel elastic elements, provided by superposition of rotation (series) and translation (parallel) of a pulley.

      While it is true that Tahir et al.’s (2018) model has series and parallel elements, as do the other models mentioned, these models do not have the correct structure to yield a gain and phase response that mimics biological muscle. The text that I originally wrote attempted to explain this without going into the details. As you note, this explanation leaves something to be desired. The original text commenting on the models of Forcinito et al, Tahir et al, Haeufle et al., and Gunther et al. has been updated to be more specific.¨ Please see the parts of the following manuscripts for details:

      • Revision: page 22, column 2, line 20, the paragraph beginning ”The models of Forcinito ...”

      • Difference: page 24, column 2, line 44

      (23) Discussion: This section should include a description of model limitations, including the relatively large number of ad hoc modifications and how many parameters must be found by optimization in practice. The authors should discuss what types of data are most compatible for use with the model (ex vivo, in vivo, single fiber, whole muscle, MTU), requirements for applying the model to different types of data, and impediments to using the model on different types of data.

      An additional limitations paragraph has been added to the discussion.

      Please see the following text:

      • Revision: the paragraph beginning on page 22, column 1, line 11 ”Both the viscoelastic ...”

      • Difference: the paragraph beginning on page 24, column 1, line 27.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) If it is possible to compare the output of this model to other more contemporary models which incorporate titin but are also simple enough to implement in whole-body simulation (such as the winding filament model), this would seem to greatly strengthen the paper.

      That’s an excellent idea, though beyond the scope of this already lengthy paper. Even though the Hill model we evaluated is a bit old it is widely used, and so, many readers will be interested in seeing the benchmark results. As benchmarking work is both difficult to fund and undertake, we do hope that others will evaluate their own models using the code and data we have provided.

      (2) I’m a little unclear on the basis for the transition between short- and midrange length changes, both in reality and in the model. And also about the range of strains that qualify as ”short”. It seems like there is potential for short range stiffness, although I would have thought more in the range of 1-2% strains than >3%, to be due to currently attached crossbridges. There is clear evidence that active titin is responsible for the low stiffness at very large strains that exceed actin-myosin overlap. But I am not clear on how a transitional stiffness on the descending limb of the force-length relationship is implemented in the model, and what aspect of physiology this is replicating. It may be helpful to clarify this further and indicate where in the model this stiffness arises.

      This question has several parts to it which I will paraphrase here:

      A Short-range stiffness acts over smaller strains than 3.8%. How is shortrange defined?

      B Where is the transition made between short-range and mid-range force response, both in reality and in the model. Also how does this change on the descending limb?

      C What components in the model contribute to the stiffness of the CE?

      A. Short-range stiffness acts over smaller strains than 3.8%. How is shortrange defined?

      The response to Reviewer 1’s comment # 5 directly addresses this question.

      B. Where is the transition made between short-range and mid-range forceresponse, both in reality and in the model. Also how does this change on the descending limb? We are going to rephrase the question because of changes in terminology that we have made in response to Reviewer 1’s comment #5.

      (i) What is the basis for the transition between the muscle behaving like an LTI system? Both in reality, and in the model. (ii) What happens outside the LTI range? (iii) Also how does this change on the descending limb?

      We will address this question one part at a time:

      (i) What is the basis for the transition between the muscle behaving like an LTI system? Both in reality, and in the model.

      A system’s response can be approximated as a linear-time-invariant (LTI) system as long as it is time-invariant, and its output can be expressed as a linear function of its input. In the context of Kirsch et al.’s experiment, the ‘system’ is the muscle, the ‘input’ is the time series of length data, and the ‘output’ is the time series of force data. Due to the requirement for timeinvariance, two experimental conditions must be met to approximate muscle as an LTI system:

      • the nominal length of the muscle stays constant over long periods of time,

      • and the nominal activation of the muscle stays constant.

      These conditions were met by default in Kirch et al.’s experiment, and also in our simulations of this experiment. The one remaining condition to assess is whether or not the muscle’s response is linear.

      To evaluate whether the muscle’s force is a linear function of the length change, Kirch et al. evaluated (Cxy)2 the coherence squared between the length and force time-series data. Even though the mathematical underpinnings of (Cxy)2 are complicated, the interpretation of (Cxy)2 is simple: muscle can be accurately approximated as a linear system if (Cxy)2 is close to 1, but the accuracy of this approximation becomes poor as (Cxy)2 approaches 0. Kirsch et al. used (Cxy)2 to identify a bandwidth in which the response of the muscle to the 1−3.8%ℓoM length changes was sufficiently linear for analysis: a lower bound of 4 Hz was identified using (Cxy)2 and the bandwidth of the input signal (15 Hz, 35 Hz, or 90 Hz) set the upper bound. In Fig. 3 of Kirsch et al. the (Cxy)2 at 4 Hz has a value of at least 0.67 for the 15 Hz and 90 Hz signals. To minimize error in our analysis and yet be consistent with Kirsch et al., we analyze the bandwidth common to both (Cxy)2 ≥ 0.67 and Kirsch et al.’s defined range. Though the bandwidth defined by the criteria (Cxy)2 ≥ 0.67 is usually larger than the one defined by Kirsch et al., there are some exceptions where the lower frequency bound of the models is higher than 4 Hz (now reported in Tables 4D and 5D).

      (ii) What happens outside the LTI range?

      When a muscle’s output cannot be considered a LTI it means that either that its length or activation is time-varying, or the relationship between length and force is no longer linear. In short, that the muscle is behaving as one would normally expect: time-varying and non-linearly. The wonderful part of Kirsch et al.’s work is that they found a surprisingly large region in the frequency domain where muscle behaves linearly and can be analyzed using the powerful tools of linear systems and signals.

      (iii) Also how does this change on the descending limb?

      Since nominal length of Kirsch et al.’s experiments is ℓoM it is not clear how the results of the perturbation experiments will change if the nominal length is moved firmly to the descending limb. However, we can see how the stiffness and damping values will change by examining Figure 9C and 9D which shows the calculated stiffness and damping of the VEXAT and Hill models as ℓM is lengthened from ℓoM down the descending limb: the stiffness and damping of the VEXAT model does not change much, while the Hill model’s stiffness changes sign and the damping coefficient changes a lot. What cannot be seen from Figure 9C and 9D is how the bandwidth over which the models are considered linear changes.

      We have made a number of updates to the text to more clearly communicate these details of our response to part (i):

      • Text has been edited so that it is clear that the terms ’short-range stiffness’ and ’small’ from Rack and Westbury’s work is not confused with ’stiffness’ and ’small’ from the LTI system’s analysis. Please see our response to comment # 5 for details.

      • We have added text to the main body of the paper to explain how the coherence squared metric was used to select a bandwidth in which the response of the system is approximately linear:

      • Revision: the paragraph that starts on page 11, column 1, line 3 ”Kirsch et al. used system identification ...”

      – Difference: page 13, column 2, line 1

      – Coherence is defined in Appendix D

      – Coherence is now also included in the example script ‘main SystemIdentificationExample.m’

      • The bandwidth over which model output can be considered linear (coherence squared > 0.67) has been added to Tables 4 and 5

      – Revision: see Table 4D, and Table 5D in Appendix E

      – Difference: see Table 4D, and Table 5D in Appendix E

      • Figures 6 and Figures 16 are annotated now if the plotted signal does not meet the linearity requirement of Cxy > 0.67.

      C. What components in the model contribute to the stiffness of the CE?

      There are three components that contribute to the stiffness of the CE which are pictured in Figure 1, appear in Eqn. 15, and are listed explicitly in Eqn. 76:

      (a) The XE, as represented by the afL(ℓ˜S+L˜M)k˜oX term in Eqn. 15.

      (b) The elasticity of the distal segment of titin, f2(ℓ˜2). Only f2(ℓ˜2) appears in Eqn. 15 because ℓ˜1 is a model state.

      (c) The extracellular matrix, as represented by the fECM(ℓ˜ECM)

      There is also a compressive element fKE, but it plays no role in the simulations presented in this work because it only begins to produce force at extremely short CE lengths (ℓ˜M < 0.1ℓoM).

      We have made the following changes to make these components clearer

      Figure 1A has been updated:

      – The symbols for a spring and a damper are now defined in Figure 1A

      – The ECM now has a spring symbol. Now all springs and dampers have the correct symbol in Figure 1A.

      – The caption now explicitly lists the rigid, viscoelastic, and elastic elements in the model

      The equations for the VEXAT’s CE stiffness and damping are now compared and contrasted to the the Hill model’s stiffness and damping in Sec. 3.1.

      – Revision: starting at page 14, column 2, line 1: Eqn. 28 and Eqn. 29 and surrounding text

      – Difference: page 17, column 1, line 22

      (3) This model appears to be an amalgamation of a phenomenological (forcelength and force-velocity relationships) and a mechanistic (crossbridge and titin stiffness and damping) model. While this may improve predictions, and so potentially be useful, it also seems like it limits the interpretation of physiological underpinnings of any findings. It may be helpful to explore in greater detail the implications of this approach.

      We have added a limitations paragraph to the discussion which addresses this comment and can be found in:

      • Revision: the paragraph beginning on page 22, column 1, line 11 ”Both the viscoelastic ...”

      • Difference: the paragraph beginning on page 24, column 1, line 27

      (4)As a biologist, I found the interpretation of phase and gain a little difficult and it may help the reader to show in greater detail the time series data and model predictions to highlight conditions under which the models do not accurately capture the magnitude and timing of force production.

      It is important that the ideas of phase and gain are understood, especially because little information can be gleaned from the time series data directly. There is some time series data in the paper already that compares each model’s response to its spring-damper of best fit: plots of the force response of each model and its spring damper of best fit can be found in Figures 6A, 6D, 6G, 6J, 16A, 16D, 16G, and 16J in the revised manuscript. While it is clear that models with a higher VAF more closely match the spring-damper of best fit, there is not much more that can be taken from time series data: the systematic differences, particularly in phase, are just not visually apparent in the time-domain but are clear in gain and phase plots in the frequency-domain.

      To make the meaning of phase and gain plots clearer, Figure 4 (Figure 5 in the first submission) has been completely re-made and includes plots that illustrate the entire process of going from two length and force timedomain signals to gain and phase plots in the frequency-domain. Included in this figure is a visual representation of transforming a signal from the time to the frequency domain (Fig. 4B and 4C), and also an illustration of the terms gain and phase (Fig. 4D). In addition, a small example file ’main SystemIdentificationExample.m’ has been added to the matlab code repository in the elife2023 branch to accompany Appendix D, which goes through the mathematics used to transform input and output time domain signals into gain and phase plots of the input-output relation. Small updates have been made to Figure 6 and 16 in the revised paper (Figures 7 and 18 in the first submission) to make the time domain signals from the spring-damper of best fit and the model output clearer. Finally, I have re-calculated the gain and phase profiles using a more advanced numerical method that trades off some resolution in frequency for more accuracy in the magnitude. This has allowed me to make Figures 6 and 16 easier to follow because the gain and phase responses are now lines rather than a scattering of points. We hope that these additions make the interpretation of gain and phase clearer.

      Please see

      Revision:

      – Figure 4 and caption on page 12

      – The opening 2 paragraphs of Sec 3.1 starting on page 10, column 2, line 4 ”In Kirsch et al.’s ...”

      – Figure 6 & 16: spring damper and model annotation added, plotted the gain and phase as lines

      – Appendix D: Updated to include coherence and the more advanced method used to evaluate the system transfer function, gain, and phase.

      Difference:

      – Figure 4 and caption on page 12

      – The opening 2 paragraphs of Sec 3.1 starting on page 12, column 1, line 34 and ending on page 13, column 2, line 29

      – Figure 6 & 16: spring damper and model annotation added

      – Appendix D

      (5) The actin-myosin and actin-titin load pathways are depicted as distinct in the model. However, given titin’s position in the center of myosin and the crossbridge connections between actin and myosin, this would seem to be an oversimplification. It seems worth considering whether the separation of these pathways is justified if it has any effect on the conclusions or interpretation.

      We have reworked one of the discussion paragraphs to focus on how our simulations would be affected by two mechanisms (Nishikawa et al.’s winding filament theory and DuVall et al.’s titin entanglement hypothesis) that make it possible for crossbridges to do mechanical work on titin.

      • Revision: the paragraph beginning on page 21, column 2, line 42 “The active titin model ...”

      • Difference: the paragraph beginning on page 23, column 2, line 48

      References

      Nishikawa KC, Monroy JA, Uyeno TE, Yeo SH, Pai DK, Lindstedt SL. Is titin a ‘winding filament’? A new twist on muscle contraction. Proceedings of the royal society B: Biological sciences. 2012 Mar 7;279(1730):981-90.

      DuVall M, Jinha A, Schappacher-Tilp G, Leonard T, Herzog W. I-Band Titin Interaction with Myosin in the Muscle Sarcomere during Eccentric Contraction: The Titin Entanglement Hypothesis. Biophysical Journal. 2016 Feb 16;110(3):302a.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      We greatly appreciate the comments from the editor and the reviewers, based on which we have made the revisions. We have responded to all the questions and summarized the revisions below. The changes are also highlighted in the manuscript.

      Additionally, we’ve noticed a few typos in the manuscript presented on the eLife website, which were not there in our originally submitted file.

      (1) In both the “Full text” presented on the eLife website and the pdf file generated after clicking “Download”: the last FC1000 in the second paragraph of the “Extensive induction curves fitting of TetR mutants” section should be FC1000WT .

      (2) In the pdf file generated after clicking “Download”: the brackets are all incorrectly formatted in the captions of Figure 4 and Figure 3—figure supplement 6.

      eLife assessment

      The fundamental study presents a two-domain thermodynamic model for TetR which accurately predicts in vivo phenotype changes brought about as a result of various mutations. The evidence provided is solid and features the first innovative observations with a computational model that captures the structural behavior, much more than the current single-domain models.

      We appreciate the supportive comments by the editor and reviewers.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors’ earlier deep mutational scanning work observed that allosteric mutations in TetR (the tetracycline repressor) and its homologous transcriptional factors are distributed across the structure instead of along the presumed allosteric pathways as commonly expected. Especially, in addition, the loss of the allosteric communications promoted by those mutations, was rescued by additional distributed mutations. Now the authors develop a two-domain thermodynamic model for TetR that explains these compelling data. The model is consistent with the in vivo phenotypes of the mutants with changes in parameters, which permits quantification. Taken together their work connects intra- and inter-domain allosteric regulation that correlate with structural features. This leads the authors to suggest broader applicability to other multidomain allosteric proteins. Here the authors follow their first innovative observations with a computational model that captures the structural behavior, aiming to make it broadly applicable to multidomain proteins. Altogether, an innovative and potentially useful contribution.

      We thank the reviewer for the supportive comments.

      Weaknesses:

      None that I see, except that I hope that in the future, if possible, the authors would follow with additional proteins to further substantiate the model and show its broad applicability. I realize however the extensive work that this would entail.

      We thank the reviewer for the supportive comments and the suggestion to extend the model to other proteins, which we indeed plan to pursue in future studies.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This combined experimental-theoretical paper introduces a novel two-domain statistical thermodynamic model (primarily Equation 1) to study allostery in generic systems but focusing here on the tetracycline repressor (TetR) family of transcription factors. This model, building on a function-centric approach, accurately captures induction data, maps mutants with precision, and reveals insights into epistasis between mutations.

      Strengths:

      The study contributes innovative modeling, successful data fitting, and valuable insights into the interconnectivity of allosteric networks, establishing a flexible and detailed framework for investigating TetR allostery. The manuscript is generally well-structured and communicates key findings effectively.

      We thank the reviewer for the supportive comments.

      Weaknesses:

      The only minor weakness I found was that I still don’t have a better sense into (a) intuition and (b) mathematical derivation of Equation 1, which is so central to the work. I would recommend that the authors provide this early on in the main text.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. The full mathematical derivation of Equation 1 is given in the first section of the supplementary file. Given the length of the derivation, we think it’s better to keep it in the supplementary file rather than the main text. In the main text, the first subsection (overview of the two-domain thermodynamic model of allostery) of the Results section and the paragraph right before Equation 1 are meant for providing intuitive understandings of the two-domain model and the derivation of Equation 1, respectively.

      We would also like to point the reviewer to Figure 2-figure supplement 2 and Equations (12) to (18) in the supplementary file for an alternative derivation. They show that the equilibria among all molecular species containing the operator are dictated by the binding free energies, the ligand concentration, and the allosteric parameters. The probability of an unbound operator (proportional to the probability that the promoter is bound by a RNA polymerase, or the gene expression level) can thus be calculated using Equation (12), which then leads to main text Equation 1 following the derivation given there.

      Additionally, we’ve added a paragraph to the main text (line 248-260) to aid an intuitive understanding of Equation 1.

      “The distinctive roles of the three biophysical parameter on the induction curve as stipulated in Equation 1 could be understood in an intuitive manner as well. First, the value of εD controls the intrinsic strength of binding of TetR to the operator, or the intrinsic difficulty for ligand to induce their separation. Therefore, it controls how tightly the downstream gene is regulated by TetR without ligands (reflected in leakiness) and affects the performance limit of ligands (reflected in saturation). Second, the value of εL controls how favorable ligand binding is in free energy. When εL increases, the binding of ligand at low concentrations become unfavorable, where the ligands cannot effectively bind to TetR to induce its separation from the operator. Therefore, the fold-change as a function of ligand concentration only starts to noticeably increase at higher ligand concentrations, resulting in larger EC50. Third, as discussed above, γ controls the level of anti-cooperativity between the ligand and operator binding of TetR, which is the basis of its allosteric regulation. In other words, γ controls how strongly ligand binding is incompatible with operator binding for TetR, hence it controls the performance limit of ligand (reflected in saturation).”

      We hope that the reviewer will find this explanation helpful.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Allosteric regulations are complicated in multi-domain proteins and many large-scale mutational data cannot be explained by current theoretical models, especially for those that are neither in the functional/allosteric sites nor on the allosteric pathways. This work provides a statistical thermodynamic model for a two-domain protein, in which one domain contains an effector binding site and the other domain contains a functional site. The authors build the model to explain the mutational experimental data of TetR, a transcriptional repress protein that contains a ligand and a DNA-binding domain. They incorporate three basic parameters, the energy change of the ligand and DNA binding domains before and after binding, and the coupling between the two domains to explain the free energy landscape of TetR’s conformational and binding states. They go further to quantitatively explain the in vivo expression level of the TetR-regulated gene by fitting into the induction curves of TetR mutants. The effects of most of the mutants studied could be well explained by the model. This approach can be extended to understand the allosteric regulation of other two-domain proteins, especially to explain the effects of widespread mutants not on the allosteric pathways. Strengths: The effects of mutations that are neither in the functional or allosteric sites nor in the allosteric pathways are difficult to explain and quantify. This work develops a statistical thermodynamic model to explain these complicated effects. For simple two-domain proteins, the model is quite clean and theoretically solid. For the real TetR protein that forms a dimeric structure containing two chains with each of them composed of two domains, the model can explain many of the experimental observations. The model separates intra and inter-domain influences that provide a novel angle to analyse allosteric effects in multi-domain proteins.

      We thank the reviewer for the supportive comments.

      Weaknesses:

      As mentioned above, the TetR protein is not a simple two-main protein, but forms a dimeric structure in which the DNA binding domain in each chain forms contacts with the ligand-binding domain in the other chain. In addition, the two ligand-binding domains have strong interactions. Without considering these interactions, especially those mutants that are on these interfaces, the model may be oversimplified for TetR.

      We thank the reviewer for this valid concern and acknowledge that TetR is a homodimer. However, we’ve deliberately chosen to simplify this complexity in our model for the following reasons.

      (1) In this work, we aim to build a minimalist model for two-domain allostery withonly the most essential parameters for capturing experimental data. The simplicity of the model helps promote its mechanistic clarity and potential transferability to other allosteric systems.

      (2) Fewer parameters are needed in a simpler model. Our two-domain modelcurrently uses only three biophysical parameters, which are all demonstrated to have distinct influences on the induction curve (see the main text section “System-level ramifications of the two-domain model”). This enables the inference of parameters with high precision for the mutants, and the quantification of the most essential mechanistic effects of their mutations, provided that the model is shown to accurately recapitulate the comprehensive dataset. Thus, we found it was unnecessary to add another parameter for explicitly describing inter-chain coupling, which would likely incur uncertainty in the inference of parameters due to the redundancy of their effects on induction data, and prevent the model from making faithful predictions.

      (3) From a more biological point of view, TetR is an obligate dimer, meaning thatthe two chains must synchronize for function, supporting the two-domain simplification of TetR for binding concerns.

      Additionally, as shown in the subsection “Inclusion of single-ligand-bound state of repressor” of section 1 of the supplementary file, incorporating the dimeric nature of TetR in our model by allowing partial ligand binding does not change the functional form of main text equation 1 in any practical sense. Therefore, considering all the factors stated above, we think that increasing the complexity of the two-domain model will only be necessary if additional data emerge to suggest the limitation of our model.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      This is an excellent work. I have only one suggestion for the authors. Interestingly, the authors also note that the epistatic interactions that they obtain are consistent with the structural features of the protein, which is not surprising. Within this framework, have the authors considered rescue mutations? Please see for example PMID: 18195360 and PMID: 15683227. If I understand right, this might further extend the applicability of their model. If so, the authors may want to add a comment to that effect.

      We thank the reviewer for the supportive comments and for pointing us to the useful references. We have added some comments to the main text regarding this point in line 332-336: “The diverse mechanistic origins of the rescuing mutations revealed here provide a rational basis for the broad distributions of such mutations. Integrating such thermodynamic analysis with structural and dynamic assessment of allosteric proteins for efficient and quantitative rescuing mutation design could present an interesting avenue for future research, particularly in the context of biomedical applications (PMID: 18195360, PMID: 15683227).”

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The authors should try to build a more realistic dimeric model for TetR to see if it could better explain experimental data. If it were too complicated for a revision, more discussions on the weakness of the current model should be given.

      We thank the reviewer for this valid concern and for the suggestion. The reasons for refraining from increasing the complexity of the model are fully discussed in our response to the reviewer’s public review given above. Primarily, we think that the value of a simple physical model is two-fold (e.g., the paradigm Ising model in statistical physics and the classic MWC model), first, its mechanistic clarity and potential transferability makes it a useful conceptual framework for understanding complex systems and establishing universal rules by comparing seemingly unrelated phenomena; second, it provides useful insights and design principles of specific systems if it can quantitatively capture the corresponding experimental data. Thus, given the current experimental data set, we believe it is justified to keep the two-domain model in its current form, while additional experimental data could necessitate a more complex model for TetR allostery in the future. Relevant discussions are added to the main text (line 443-446) and section 8 of the supplementary file.

      “It’s noted that the homodimeric nature of TetR is ignored in the current two-domain model to minimize the number of parameters, and additional experimental data could necessitate a more complex model for TetR allostery in the future (see supplementary file section 8 for more discussions).”

      Minor issues:

      (1) There is an error in Figure 3A, the 13th and 14th subgraphs are the same and should be corrected.

      We thank the reviewer for capturing this error, which has been corrected in the revised manuscript.

      (2) The criteria for the selection of mutants for analysis should be clearly given. Apart from deleting mutants that are in direct contact with the ligand of DNA, how many mutants are left, and how far are they are from the two sites? In line 257, what are the criteria for selecting these 15 mutants? Similarly, in line 332, what are the criteria for selecting these 8 mutants?

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. The data selection criteria are now added in section 7 of the supplementary file. The distances to the DNA operator and ligand of the 21 residues under mutational study are now added in Table 1 (Figure 3-figure supplement 9). The added materials are referenced in the main text where relevant.

      “7. Mutation selection for two-domain model analysis

      In this work, there are 24 mutants studied in total including the WT, and they contain mutations at 21 WT residues. We did not perform model parameter inference for the mutant G102D because of its flat induction curve (see the second subsection of section 2 and main text Figure 2—figure Supplement 3). Therefore, there are 23 mutants analyzed in main text Figure 5.

      Measuring the induction curve of a mutant involves a significant amount of experimental effort, which therefore is hard to be extended to a large number of mutants. Nonetheless, we aim to compose a set of comprehensive induction data here for validating our two-domain model for TetR allostery. To this end, we picked 15 individual mutants in the first round of induction curve measurements, which contains mutations spanning different regions in the sequence and structure of TetR (main text Figure 3—figure Supplement 1). Such broad distribution of mutations across LBD, DBD and the domain interface could potentially lead to diverse induction curve shapes and mutant phenotypes for validating the two-domain model. Indeed, as discussed in the main text section "Extensive induction curves fitting of TetR mutants", the diverse effects on induction curve from mutations perturbing different allosteric parameters predicted by the model, are successfully observed in these 15 experimental induction curves. Additionally, 5 of the 15 mutants contain a dead-rescue mutation pair, which helps us validate the model prediction that a dead mutation could be rescued by rescuing mutations that perturb the allosteric parameters in various ways.

      Eight mutation combinations were chosen for the second round of induction curve measurement for studying epistasis, where we paired up C203V and Y132A with mutations from different regions of the TetR structure. Such choice is largely based on two considerations. 1. As both C203V and Y132A greatly enhance the allosteric response of TetR, we want to probe why they cannot rescue a range of dead mutations as observed previously (PMID: 32999067). 2. C203V and Y132A are the only two mutants that show enhanced allosteric response in the first round of analysis. Combining detrimental mutations of allostery in a combined mutant could potentially lead to near flat induction curve, which is less useful for inference (see the second subsection of section 2).”

      Since the number of hotspots identified by DMS is not very large, why not analyze them all?

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. There are 41 hotspot residues in TetR (PMID: 36226916), which have 41*19=779 possible single mutations. It’s unfeasible to perform induction curve measurements for all of these 779 mutants in our current experiment. However, we agree that it would be helpful if we can obtain such a dataset in an efficient way.

      In line 257, there are 15 mutants mentioned, while in Figure 5, there are 23 mutants mentioned, in Figure 3-figure supplement 1, there are 21 mutants mentioned, and in line 226 of the supplementary file, there are 24 mutants mentioned, which is very confusing. Therefore, the data selection criteria used in this article should be given.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. The data selection criteria are now given in section 7 of the supplementary file, which should clarify this confusion.

      (3) In Figure 4 of the Exploring epistasis between mutations section, the 6 weights of the additive models corresponding to each mutation combination are different. On one hand, it seems that there are no universal laws in these experimental data. On the other hand, unique parameters of a single mutation combination were not validated in other mutation combinations, which somewhat weakened the conclusions about the potential physical significance of these additive weights.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. We admit that a quantitative universal law for tuning the 6 weights of the additive model does not manifest in our data, which indicates the mutation-specific nature of epistatic interactions in TetR as hinted in the different rescuing mutation distributions of different dead mutations (PMCID: PMC7568325). However, clear common trends in the weight tuning of combined mutants that contain common mutations do emerge, which comply with the structural features of the protein and provide explanations as to why C203V and Y132A don’t rescue a range of dead mutations (main text section “Exploring epistasis between mutations”). Additionally, the lack of a quantitative universal rule for tuning the 6 weights in our simple model doesn’t exclude the possibility of the existence of universal law for epistasis in TetR in another functional form, a point that could be explored in the future with more extensive joint experimental and computational investigations.

      In Eq. (27) of the supplementary file, the prior distribution of inter-domain coupling γ is given as a Gaussian distribution centered at 5 kBT. Since the absolute value of γ is important, can the authors explain why the prior distribution of γ is set to this value and what happens if other values are used?

      We thank the reviewer for the question. As explained in the corresponding discussions of Eq. (27) in the supplementary file, the prior of γ is chosen to serve as a soft constraint on its possible values based on the consideration that 1. inter-domain energetics for a TetR-like protein should be on the order of a few kBT; and 2. the prior distribution should reflect the experimental observation in the literature that γ has a small probability of adopting negative values upon mutations. Given our thorough validation of the statistical model and computational algorithm (see section 3 of the supplementary file), and the high precision in the parameter fitting results using experimental data (Figure 3 and Figure 4-figure supplement 2), we conclude that 1. the physical range of parameters encoded in their chosen prior distributions agrees well with the value reflected in the experimental data; 2. the inference results are predominantly informed by the data. Thus, changing the mean of the prior distribution of γ should not affect the inference results significantly given that it remains in the physical range.

      This point is explicitly shown in the added Table 2 (Figure 3-figure supplement 10), where we compare the current Bayesian inference results with those obtained after increasing the standard deviation of the Gaussian prior of γ from 2.5 to 5 kBT. As shown in the table, most inference results stay virtually unchanged at the use of this less informative prior, which confirms that they are predominantly informed by the data. The only exceptions are the slight increase of the inferred γ values for C203V, C203V-Y132A and C203V-G102D-L146A, reflecting the intrinsic difficulty of precise inference of large γ values with our model, as is already discussed in the second subsection of section 3 of the supplementary file. However, such observations comply with the common trend of epistatic interactions involving C203V presented in the main text and don’t compromise the ability of our model to accurately capture the induction curves of mutants. Relevant discussions are now added to the second subsection of section 3 of the supplementary file (line 368-385).

      “In our experimental dataset, such inference difficulty is only observed in the case of C203V, Y132A-C203V and C203V-G102D-L146A due to their large γ and γ + εL values (see main text Figure 3, Figure 3—figure Supplement 10 and Figure 4). As shown in main text Figure 3—figure Supplement 10, the inference results for the other 20 mutants stay highly precise and virtually unchanged after increasing the standard deviation of the Gaussian prior of γ (gstdγ ) from 2.5 to 5 kBT. This demonstrates that the inference results for these mutants are strongly informed by the induction data and there is no difficulty in the precise inference of the parameter values. On the other hand, the inferred γ values (especially the upper bound of the 95% credible region) for C203V, Y132A-C203V and C203V-G102D-L146A increased with gstdγ . This is because the induction curves in these cases are not sensitive to the value of γ given that it’s large enough as discussed above. Hence, when unphysically large γ values are permitted by the prior distribution, they could enter the posterior distribution as well. Such difficulty in the precise inference of γ values for these three mutants however, doesn’t compromise the ability of our model in accurately capturing the comprehensive set of induction data (see part iv below). Additionally, the increase of the inferred γ value of C203V at the use of larger gstdγ complies with the results presented in main text Figure 4, which show that the effect of C203V on γ tends to be compromised when combined with mutations closer to the domain interface."

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      We appreciate the thoughtful review of our manuscript by the reviewers, along with their valuable suggestions for enhancing our work. In response to these suggestions, we conducted additional experiments and made significant revisions to both the text and figures. In the following sections, we first highlight the major changes made to the manuscript, and thereafter address each reviewer's comments point-by-point. We hope these additional data and revisions have improved the robustness and clarity of the study and manuscript. Please note that as part of a suggested revision we have changed the manuscript title to be: Bacterial vampirism mediated through taxis to serum.

      Major revisions and new data:

      (1) We conducted additional experiments testing taxis to serum using a swine ex vivo enterohemorrhagic lesion model in which we competed wildtype versus chemotaxis deficient strains (Fig. 8). We selected swine for these experiments due to their similarity in gastrointestinal physiology to humans. In these experiments we see that chemotaxis, and the chemoreceptor Tsr, mediate localization to, and migration into, the lesion. We also tested, and confirmed, taxis to serum from swine and serum from horse, that supporting that serum attraction is relevant in other host-pathogen systems.

      (2) We present additional experimental data and quantification of chemotaxis responses to human serum treated with serine-racemase (Fig. S3). This treatment reduces wildtype chemoattraction and the wildtype no longer possesses an advantage over the tsr strain, providing further evidence that L-serine is the specific chemoattractant responsible for Tsr-mediated attraction to serum.

      (3) We present additional data in the form of 17 videos of chemotaxis experiments with norepinephrine and DHMA showing null-responses under various conditions. These data provide additional support to the conclusion that these chemicals are not responsible for bacterial attraction to serum. We have included these raw data as a new supplementary file (Data S1) for those in the field that are interested in these chemicals.

      (4) Based on comments from Reviewer 2 regarding whether the position of the ligand and ligand-binding site residues in the previously-reported EcTsr LBD structure are incorrect, or whether these differences are due to the proteins being from different organisms, we performed paired crystallographic refinements to determine which positions result in model improvement (Fig. 7J). Altering the EcTsr structure to have the ligand and ligandbinding site positions from our new higher resolution and better-resolved structure of Salmonella Typhimurium Tsr results in a demonstrably better model, with both Rwork and Rfree lower by about 1% (Fig. 7J). These data support our conclusion that the correct positions for both structures are as we have modeled them in the S. Typhimurium Tsr structure. We also solved an additional crystal structure of SeTsr LBD captured at neutral pH (7-7.5) that confirms our structure captured with elevated pH (7.5-9.7) has no major changes in structure or ligand-binding interactions (Fig. S6, Table S2).

      (5) Based on comments from Reviewer 2 on the accuracy of the diffusion calculations, we present a new analysis (Fig. S2) comparing the experimentally-determined diffusion of A488 compared to its calculated diffusion. We found that:

      [line 111]: “As a test case of the accuracy of the microgradient modeling, we compared our calculated values for A488 diffusion to the normalized fluorescence intensity at time 120 s. We determined the concentration to be accurate within 5% over the distance range 70270 µm (Fig. S2). At smaller distances (<70 µm) the measured concentration is approximately 10% lower than that predicted by the computation. This could be due to advection effects near the injection site that would tend to enhance the effective local diffusion rate.”

      (6) Both reviewers asked us to better justify why we focused on the chemoreceptor Tsr, and had questions about why we did not investigate Tar. The low concentration of Asp in serum suggests Tar could have some effect, but less so than Trg or Tsr (see Fig. 4A). We have revised the text throughout to better convey that we agree multiple chemoreceptors are involved in the response and clarify our rationale for studying the role of Tsr:

      [line 178]: “We modeled the local concentration profile of these effectors based on their typical concentrations in human serum (Fig. 4B). Of these, by far the two most prevalent chemoattractants in serum are glucose (5 mM) and L-serine (100-300 µM) (Fig. 4B-F). This suggested to us that the chemoreceptors Trg and/or Tsr could play important roles in serum attraction.”

      [line 186]: “Since tsr mutation diminishes serum attraction but does not eliminate it, we conclude that multiple chemoattractant signals and chemoreceptors mediate taxis to serum. To further understand the mechanism of this behavior we chose to focus on Tsr as a representative chemoreceptor involved in the response, presuming that serum taxis involves one, or more, of the chemoattractants recognized by Tsr that is present in serum: L-serine, NE, or DHMA.”

      [line 468] “Serum taxis occurs through the cooperative action of multiple bacterial chemoreceptors that perceive several chemoattractant stimuli within serum, one of these being the chemoreceptor Tsr through recognition of L-serine (Fig. 4).”

      Point-by-point responses to reviewer comments:

      Reviewer #1:

      (1) Presumably in the stomach, any escaping serum will be removed/diluted/washed away quite promptly? This effect is not captured by the CIRA assay but perhaps it might be worth commenting on how this might influence the response in vivo. Perhaps this could explain why, even though the chemotaxis appears rapid and robust, cases of sepsis are thankfully relatively rare.

      To clarify, the Enterobacteriaceae species we have tested here are colonizers of the intestines, not the stomach, and cases of bacteremia from these species are presumably due to bloodstream entry through intestinal lesions. Whether or not intestinal flow acts as a barrier to bloodstream entry is not something we test here, and so we have not commented on this idea in the manuscript. We do demonstrate that attraction to serum occurs within seconds-to-minutes of exposure. We expect that the major protective effects against sepsis are the host antibacterial factors in serum, which are well-described in other work. We have been careful to state throughout the text that we see attraction responses, and growth benefits, to serum that is diluted in an aqueous media, which is different than bacterial growth in 100% serum or in the bloodstream.

      (2) The authors refer to human serum as a chemoattractant numerous times throughout the study (including in the title). As the authors acknowledge, human serum is a complex mixture and different components of it may act as chemoattractants, chemo-repellents (particularly those with bactericidal activities) or may elicit other changes in motility (e.g. chemokinesis). The authors present convincing evidence that cells are attracted to serine within human serum - which is already a well-known bacterial chemoattractant. Indeed, their ability to elucidate specific elements of serum that influence bacterial motility is a real strength of the study. However, human serum itself is not a chemoattractant and this claim should be re-phrased - bacteria migrate towards human serum, driven at least in part by chemotaxis towards serine.

      Throughout the text we have changed these statements, including in the title, to either be ‘taxis to serum’ or ‘serum attraction.’ On the timescales we tested our data support that chemotaxis, not chemokineses or other forms of direction motility, is what drives rapid serum attraction, since a motile but non-chemotactic cheY mutant cannot localize to serum (Fig. 4). We present evidence of one of these chemotactic interactions (L-Ser).

      (3) Linked to the previous point, several bacterial species (including E. coli - one of the bacterial species investigated here) are capable of osmotaxis (moving up or down gradients in osmolality). Whilst chemotaxis to serine is important here, could movement up the osmotic gradient generated by serum injection play a more general role? It could be interesting to measure the osmolality of the injected serum and test whether other solutions with similar osmolality elicit a similar migratory response. Another important control here would be to treat human serum with serine racemase and observe how this impacts bacterial migration.

      As addressed above, we have added additional experiments of serum taxis treated with serine racemase showing competition between WT and cheY, and WT and tsr (Fig. S3). These data support a role for L-serine as a chemoattractant driving attraction to serum. The idea of osmotaxis is interesting, but outside the scope of this work since we focus on chemoattraction to L-serine as one of the mechanisms driving serum attraction, and have multiple lines of evidence to support that.

      (4) The migratory response of E. coli looks striking when quantified (Fig. 6C) but is really unclear from looking at Panel B - it would be more convincing if an explanation was offered for why these images look so much less striking than analogous images for other species (E.g. Fig. 6A).

      We agree that the E. coli taxis to serum response is less obvious. We have brightened those panels to hopefully make it clearer to interpret (more cells in field of view over time). Also, as stated in the y-axes of these plots, this quantification was performed by enumerating the number of cells in the field of view, and the Citrobacter and Escherichia responses are shown on separate y-axes (now Fig. 8C). As indicated, the experiments have different numbers of starting motile cells, which we presume accounts for the difference in attraction magnitude. When investigating diverse bacterial systems we found there to be differences in motility under the culturing and experimental conditions we employed, for multiple reasons, and so for these data we thought it best to report raw cell numbers rather data normalized to the starting number of bacteria, as we do elsewhere. In the specific case of these E. coli responding to serum, please view Supplementary Movie S3, which both clearly shows the attraction response and that the bacteria grew in a longer, semi-filamentous form that seem to impair their swimming speed.

      (5) It is unclear why the fold-change in bacterial distribution shows an approximately Gaussian shape with a peak at a radial distance of between 50 -100 um from the source (see for example Fig. 2H). Initially, I thought that maybe this was due to the presence of the microcapillary needle at the source, but the CheY distribution looks completely flat (Fig. 3I). Is this an artifact of how the fold-change is being calculated? Certainly, it doesn't seem to support the authors' claim that cells increase in density to a point of saturation at the source. Furthermore, it also seems inappropriate to apply a linear fit to these non-linear distributions (as is done in Fig. 2H and in the many analogous figures throughout the manuscript).

      We have revised the text to address this point, and removed the comment about cells increasing in density to a point of saturation: [Line 138] “We noted that in some experiments the population peak is 50-75 µm from the source, possibly due to a compromise between achieving proximity to nutrients in the serum and avoidance of bactericidal serum elements, but this behavior was not consistent across all experiments. Overall, our data show S. enterica serovars that cause disease in humans are exquisitely sensitive to human serum, responding to femtoliter quantities as an attractant, and that distinct reorganization at the population level occurs within minutes of exposure (Fig. 3, Movie 2).”

      We can confirm that this is not an artifact of quantification. Please refer to the videos of these responses, which demonstrates this point (Movies 1-5).

      (6) The authors present several experiments where strains/ serovars competed against each other in these chemotaxis assays. As mentioned, these are a real strength of the study - however, their utility is not always clear. These experiments are useful for studying the effects of competition between bacteria with different abilities to climb gradients.

      However, to meaningfully interpret these effects, it is first necessary to understand how the different bacteria climb gradients in monoculture. As such, it would be instructive to provide monoculture data alongside these co-culture competition experiments.

      Thank you for this suggestion. We agree that the coculture experiments showing strains competing for the same source of effector give a different perspective than monoculture. These experiments allow us to confirm taxis deficiencies or advantages with greater sensitivity, and ensure that the bacteria in competition have experienced the same gradient. This type of competition experiment is often used in in vivo experimentation for the same advantages. We note that in the gut the bacteria are not in monoculture and chemotactic bacteria do have to compete against each other for access to nutrients. Repeating all of the experiments we present to show both the taxis responses in coculture and monoculture would be an extraordinary amount of work that we do not believe would meaningfully change the conclusions of this study.

      (7) Linked to the above point, it would be especially instructive to test a tsr mutant's response in monoculture. Comparing the bottom row of Fig. 3G to Fig. 3I suggests that when in co-culture with a cheY mutant, the tsr mutant shows a higher fold-change in radial distribution than the WT strain. Fig. 4G shows that a tsr mutant can chemotaxis towards aspartate at a similar, but reduced rate to WT. This could imply that (like the trg mutant), a tsr mutant has a more general motility defect (e.g. a speed defect), which could explain why it loses out when in competition with the WT in gradients of human serum, but actually seems to migrate strongly to human serum when in co-culture with a cheY mutant. This should be resolved by studying the response of a tsr mutant in monoculture.

      Addressed above.

      (8) In Fig. 4, the response of the three clinical serovars to serine gradients appears stronger than the lab serovar, whilst in Fig. 1, the response to human serum gradients shows the opposite trend with the lab serovar apparently showing the strongest response. Can the authors offer a possible explanation for these slightly confusing trends?

      We suspect this relates to the fact that pure L-serine is a chemoattractant, whereas treatment with serum exposes the bacteria both to chemoattractants and, likely, chemorepellents. Strains may navigate the landscape of these stimuli different for a variety of reasons that are not simple to tease apart. The final magnitude of change in bacterial localization depends on multiple factors including swimming speed, adaptation, sensitivity of chemoattraction, and cooperative signaling of the chemoreceptor nanoarray. Thus, we cannot state with certainty how and why these strains are different across all experiments, but we can state that they are attracted to both serum and L-serine.

      (9) In Fig. S2, it seems important to present quantification of the effect of serine racemase and the reported lack of response to NE and DHMA - the single time-point images shown here are not easy to interpret.

      As suggested, we present quantification of the serum racemase treated samples (now Fig. S3). To assist in the interpretation of this max projections Fig. S3 now noted the chemotactic response (chemoattraction for L-serine, null-response for NE/DHMA). Further, we revised the text to state: [line 209: “We observed robust chemoattraction responses to L-serine, evident by the accumulation of cells toward the treatment source (Fig. S3E, Movie 4), but no response to NE or DHMA, with the cells remaining randomly distributed even after 5 minutes of exposure (Fig. S3F-I, Movie 5, Movie S1).”

      (10) Importantly, the authors detail how they controlled for the effects of pH and fluid flow (Line 133-136). Did the authors carry out similar controls for the dual-species experiments where fluorescent imaging could have significantly heated the fluid droplet driving stronger flow forces?

      Most of our microfluidics experiments were performed in a temperature-controlled chamber (see Methods). Since the strains in the coculture experiments experienced the same experimental conditions we have no evidence of fluorescence-imaginginduced temperature changes that have impacted whether or not the bacteria are attracted to serum or the effectors we investigated.

      (11) The inference of the authors' genetic analysis combined with the migratory response of E. coli and C. koseri to human serum shown in Fig. 6 is that Tsr drives movement towards human serum across a range of Enterobacteriaceae species. The evidence for the importance of Tsr here is currently correlative - more causal evidence could be presented by either studying the response of tsr mutants in these two species (certainly these should be readily available for E. coli) or by studying the response of these two species to serine gradients.

      We have revised the text to state: [line 402] “Without further genetic analyses in these strain backgrounds, the evidence for Tsr mediating serum taxis for these bacteria remains circumstantial. Nevertheless, taxis to serum appears to be a behavior shared by diverse Enterobacteriaceae species and perhaps also Gammaproteobacteria priority pathogen genera that possess Tsr such as Serratia, Providencia, Morganella, and Proteus (Fig. 8B).”

      We note that other work has thoroughly investigated E. coli serine taxis.

      Figure Suggestions

      (1) Fig. 2 - The inset bar charts in panels H-J and the font size in their axes labels are too small - this suggestion also applies to all analogous figures throughout the manuscript.

      We have increased the size of the text for these inset plots. We have also broken up some of the larger figures.

      (2) Panel 2F - the cartoon bacterial cell and 'number of bacteria' are confusing and seem to contradict the y-axis label. This also applies to several other figures throughout the manuscript where the significance of this cartoon cell is quite hard to interpret.

      As suggested, we have removed this cartoon.

      (3) Panels G-I in Fig. 3 are currently tricky to interpret - it would be easier if the authors were to use three different colours for the three different strains shown across these panels.

      We have broken up Figure 2 (which also had these types of plots) so that hopefully these labels are more clear. For the Figure in question (now Fig. 4), due to the many figures and different types of data and comparisons it was difficult to find a color scheme for these strains that would be consistent across the manuscript. These colors also reflect the fluorescence markers. We note that not only do we use color to indicate the strain but also text labels.

      (4) Panels 3B-F would be best moved to a supplementary figure as this figure is currently very busy. Similarly, I would potentially consider presenting only the bottom row of panels in Panels G-I in the main figure (which would then be consistent with analogous data presented elsewhere).

      We have opted to keep these panels in the main text (now Fig. 4) as they are relevant to understanding (1) our justification for why to pursue certain chemoeffector-chemoreceptor interactions and not others, and (2) how the chemoattraction response can be understood both in terms of bacterial population distribution and relevant cells over time.

      (5) Fig. 4 and possibly elsewhere - perhaps best not to use Ser as an abbreviation for Serine here because it could potentially be confused with an abbreviation for serum.

      It is unfortunate that these two words are so similar. However, Ser is the canonical abbreviation for the amino acid serine. Serum does not have a canonical abbreviation.

      (6) Fig. 4 - I would move panels H - K to a separate supplementary figure - currently, they are too squished together and it is hard to make out the x-axis labels. I would also consider moving panels E-G to supplementary as well so that the microscopy images presented elsewhere in the figure can be presented at an appropriate size.

      Since we are allowed more figures, we could also break some of these figures up into multiple ones.

      (7) Similarly, I would move some panels from Fig. 5 to supplementary as the figure is currently quite busy.

      We have rearranged the figure (now Fig. 7) to move the bioinformatics data to Fig. 8 to allow more space for the panels.

      Other suggestions

      (8) Line 179 - how do the concentrations quote for serine and glucose compare to aspartate? This would be helpful to justify the authors' decision not to investigate Tar as a potential chemoreceptor.

      This is addressed in our comments above and in Fig. 4A and Fig. 4B-F. Human serum L-Asp is much lower concentration (about 20-fold).

      (9) Line 282 - Serine levels in serum are quantified at 241 uM, but this is only discussed in the context of serum growth effects. Could this information be better used to design/ inform the serine gradients that were tested in chemotaxis assays?

      We tested a wide range of serine concentrations and show even much lower sources of serine than is present in serum is sufficient for chemoattraction. Also, the K1/2 for serine is 105 uM (Fig. S4), which is surpassed by the concentration in serum (Fig. S5).

      (10) The word 'potent' in the title might be too vague, especially as the strength of the response varies between strains/species. It may perhaps be more useful to focus on the rapidity/sensitivity of the response. However, presumably the sensitivity of the response will be driven by the sensitivity of the response to serine (which is already known for E. coli at least). Also, as noted in the public review, human serum itself is not a chemoattractant so I would consider re-phasing this in the title and elsewhere.

      As suggested, and discussed above, we have implemented this change.

      (11) Typo line 59 'context of colonizing of a healthy gut'.

      Addressed.

      (12) Typo line 538 - there is an extra full stop here.

      Addressed.

      Reviewer #2:

      (1) This study is well executed and the experiments are clearly presented. These novel chemotaxis assays provide advantages in terms of temporal resolution and the ability to detect responses from small concentrations. That said, it is perhaps not surprising these bacteria respond to serum as it is known to contain high levels of known chemoattractants, serine certainly, but also aspartate. In fact, the bacteria are shown to respond to aspartate and the tsr mutant is still chemotactic. The authors do not adequately support their decision to focus exclusively on the Tsr receptor. Tsr is one of the chemoreceptors responsible for observed attraction to serum, but perhaps, not the receptor. Furthermore, the verification of chemotaxis to serum is a useful finding, but the work does not establish the physiological relevance of the behavior or associate it with any type of disease progression. I would expect that a majority of chemotactic bacteria would be attracted to it under some conditions. Hence the impact of this finding on the chemotaxis or medical fields is uncertain.

      We agree that the data we show are mostly mechanistic and further work is required to learn whether this bacterial behavior is relevant in vivo and during infections. We present new data using an ex vivo intestinal model which supports the feasibility of serum taxis mediating invasion of enterohemorrhagic lesions (Fig. 8).

      (2) The authors also state that "Our inability to substantiate a structure-function relationship for NE/DHMA signaling indicates these neurotransmitters are not ligands of Tsr." Both norepinephrine (NE) and DHMA have been shown previously by other groups to be strong chemoattractants for E. coli (Ec), and this behavior was mediated by Tsr (e.g. single residue changes in the Tsr binding pocket block the response). Given the 82% sequence identity between the Se and Ec Tsr, this finding is unexpected (and potentially quite interesting). To validate this contradictory result the authors should test E. coli chemotaxis to DHMA in their assay. It may be possible that Ec responds to NE and DHMA and Se doesn't. However, currently, the data is not strong enough to rule out Tsr as a receptor to these ligands in all cases. At the very least the supporting data for Tsr being a receptor for NE/DHMA needs to be discussed.

      Addressed above. The focus of this study is serum attraction and the mechanisms thereof. We never saw any evidence to support the idea that NE/DHMA drives attraction to serum, nor are chemoeffectors for Salmonella, and provide these null-results in Data S2.

      (3) The authors also determine a crystal structure of the Se Tsr periplasmic ligand binding domain bound to L-Ser and note that the orientation of the ligand is different than that modeled in a previously determined structure of lower resolution. I agree that the SeTsr ligand binding mode in the new structure is well-defined and unambiguous, but I think it is too strong to imply that the pose of the ligand in the previous structure is wrong. The two conformations are in fact quite similar to one another and the resolution of the older structure, is, in my view, insufficient to distinguish them. It is possible that there are real differences between the two structures. The domains do have different sequences and, moreover, the crystal forms and cryo-cooling conditions are different in each case. It's become increasingly apparent that temperature, as manifested in differential cooling conditions here, can affect ligand binding modes. It's also notable that full-length MCPs show negative cooperativity in binding ligands, which is typically lost in the isolated periplasmic domains. Hence ligand binding is sensitive to the environment of a given domain. In short, the current data is not convincing enough to say that a previous "misconception" is being corrected.

      Thank you for this comment, which spurred us to investigate this idea more rigorously. As described above we performed new refinements of the E. coli structure edited to have the positions of the ligand and ligand-binding site as modeled in our new Tsr structure from Salmonella (Fig. 7J). The best model is obtained with these poses. Along with the poor fit of the E. coli model to the density, the best interpretations for these positions, for both structures, are as we have modeled them in the Salmonella Tsr structures.

      Figure suggestions

      (1) Figure 2 looks busy and unorganized. Fig 2C could be condensed into one image where there are different colored rings coming from the source point that represent different time points.

      Addressed above. Fig. 2 has been broken apart to help improve clarity.

      (2) What is the second (bottom) graph of 2D? I think only the top graph is necessary.

      We have added an explanation to the figure legend that the top graph shows the means and the bottom shows SEM. The plots cannot easily be overlaid.

      (3) Similarly, Fig 2E doesn't need to have so many time points. Perhaps 4 at maximum.

      As the development of the response over time is a key take-home of the study, we do not wish to reduce the timepoints shown.

      (4) The legend for Figure 2F uses the unit 'µM' to mean micrometers but should use 'µm'.

      Corrected.

      (5) In Figures 2H-J, the lime green text is difficult to read. The word "serum" does not need to be at the top of each panel. I recommend shortening the y-axis titles on the graphs so you can make the graphs themselves larger.

      Addressed above.

      (6) In Figures 2H-J, I am confused about what is being shown in the inset graph. The legend says it's the AUC for the data shown. However, in the third panel (S. Typhimurium vs. S. Enteriditus) the data appears to be much more disparate than the inset indicates. I don't think that this inset is necessary either.

      The point of this inset graph is to quantify the response through integration of the curve, i.e., area under the curve, which is a common way to quantify complex curves and compare responses as single values. We are using this method to calculate statistical significant of the response compared to a null response. We have added further clarification to the figure legend regarding these plots: Inset plots show foldchange AUC of strains in the same experiment relative to an expected baseline of 1 (no change). p-values shown are calculated with an unpaired two-sided t-test comparing the means of the two strains, or one-sided t-test to assess statistical significance in terms of change from 1-fold (stars).

      (7) Line 154, change "relevant for" to "observed in".

      Changed.

      (8) Line 171, according to the Mist4 database, Salmonella enterica has seven chemoreceptors. Why are only Tar, Tsr, and Trg mentioned? Why were only Tsr and Trg tested?

      Addressed above.

      (9) Line 192, be clear that you are referring to genes and not proteins, as italics are used.

      Revised to make this distinction clear.

      (10) Line 193, have other studies found a Trg deletion strain to be non-chemotactic? If so, cite this source here.

      We state that the Trg deletion strain had deficiencies in motility, and also have revised the text to include the clarification that this was not noted in earlier work with this strain: [line 173]: We were surprised to find that the trg strain had deficiencies in swimming motility (data not shown). This was not noted in earlier work but could explain the severe infection disadvantage of this mutant 34. Because motility is a prerequisite for chemotaxis, we chose not to study the trg mutant further, and instead focused our investigations on Tsr.

      (11) Why wasn't a Tar deletion mutant also analyzed? The authors say that based on the known composition of serum, serine and glucose are the most abundant. However, the serum does have aspartate at 10s of micromolar concentrations.

      Addressed above.

      (12) “The Tsr deletion strain still exhibits an obvious chemoattraction to serum. There are other protein(s) involved in chemoattraction to serum but the text does not discuss this.”

      Addressed above.

      (13) “In Figure 3B-F, the text is very difficult to read even when zoomed in on.”

      We have increased the font size of these panels.

      (14) “All of the text in Figure 5 is extremely small and difficult to read.”

      Addressed above. We split this figure in two to help improve clarity.

      (15) “I wonder about the accuracy of the concentration modeling. It seems like there are a lot of variables that could affect the diffusion rates, including the accuracy of the delivery system. Could the concentrations be verified by the dye experiments?”

      Addressed above. We provide a new analysis comparing experimental diffusion of A488 dye compared to calculations (Fig. S2).

    1. Note: This response was posted by the corresponding author to Review Commons. The content has not been altered except for formatting.

      Learn more at Review Commons


      Reply to the reviewers

      We thank the reviewers for their time and effort in assessing our preprint. We have revised our manuscript and addressed their comments in our point-by-point response as follows:

      Reviewer 1

      The authors should cite the existing mCherry-transgenic quail lines reported by Huss et al. (2015) to compare their performance. The lines developed by Huss et al. carry multiple transgenes, and the transgene-derived fluorescence is detectable under a fluorescent stereomicroscope, which indicates that the expression of substantially high levels of fluorescent proteins in quail cells does not affect quail embryogenesis or growth.

      We have now cited the transgenic mCherry line reported by Huss et al, 2015 as an example of using live imaging of avian embryos to study development but we feel that a direct comparison between the line is invalid as the Tg(PGK1:H2B-chFP) line they report has a nuclear localised fluorescent protein and ours expresses an actin-binding fluorescent protein.

      We note that Huss et al generated three independent transgenic quail lines (Q1-3), but each only contained a single copy of the transgene (as shown in their Fig S2).

      Finally, we would like to highlight that the transgene-derived fluorescence of our Lifeact-EGFP quail line is also easily detectable under a stereomicroscope and we use this method to screen for positive Lifeact-EGFP embryos for experiments. As we show in Figure 1, the Lifeact-EGFP expression does not affect quail embryogenesis or growth.

      Here, the authors developed only a single line of single copy integration of a transgene using a weak promoter. This suggests that the procedure used by the authors to produce transgenic quail may be inefficient and that the transgene expression level is lower. The authors should present an objective measure of the transgene expression levels.

      To generate the transgenic line, we used transfection of primordial germ cells as described previously (Barzilai-Tutsch, Hila et al., eLife, 2022; Serralbo, O et al., eLife, 2020). We deliberately chose to use a UbC promoter to drive moderate expression of Lifeact to avoid potential artifacts relating to Lifeact overexpression (Courtemanche, N. et al., Nature Cell Biology, 2016; Flores, L. R. et al., Sci Rep, 2019; Spracklen, A. J. et al., Developmental Biology, 2014; Xu, R. and Du, S., Front Cell Dev Biol, 2021).

      This methodology not only generates a line with no defects in growth but it also allows us to perform high-resolution imaging and to computationally segment and quantify actin in live embryos. To objectively evaluate the transgene expression level, we have now measured the signal-to-noise ratio of Lifeact-EGFP expression and found it does not differ from that of the standard actin stain Phalloidin. We have included these measurements in Figure S1.

      Although the authors attempted to record philopodial dynamics, the images of philopodia are fuzzy. Sharper philopodial images have been published using the Huss et al. transgenic quail embryos (Sato et al., 2017), where mCherry fluorescence is widespread in the cytoplasm, which indicates no advantage of actin-associated fluorescence. (Sato Y, Nagatoshi K, Hamano A, Imamura Y, Huss D, Uchida S, Lansford R. Basal filopodia and vascular mechanical stress organize fibronectin into pillars bridging the mesoderm-endoderm gap. Development 2017; 144(2):281-291. doi.org/10.1242/dev.141259)

      The mCherry transgenic line reported by Huss et al, 2015 and used by Sato et al, 2017 ubiquitously expresses nuclear-localized mCherry fluorescent protein (Tg(PGK1:H2B-chFP)). It does not label the cytoplasm or the membrane and was used to follow cell nuclei in one set of experiments (Sato et al, 2017, Figure 6).

      The mCherry labelling of filopodia in Sato et al, 2017 was performed by DNA electroporation into wildtype embryos. Our Lifeact-EGFP transgenic line confers an advantage over this approach by 1) removing the need for electroporation to label filopodia and 2) labelling the endogenous actin that forms the filopodial structure. Although we have not optimised the imaging conditions to visualise the somitic filopodia described by Sato et al, nevertheless, we can see them quite clearly in the cross-section of our live imaging of the Lifeact-EGFP quail as demonstrated in the attached response to reviewers document.

      These filopodia, also referred to as filopodia-like protrusions (Sagar et al., Development, 2015), extend from the dorsal surface of the somites towards the ectoderm and can be seen in fixed embryos stained with Phalloidin in Figure S1 in the paper by Sato et al.

      The feasibility of live imaging is, of course, the advantage of Lifeact-EGFP; however, the actin fiber images using Lifeact-EGFP are unclear, partially because Lifeact binds to G-actin with a greater affinity than to F-actin. The authors should compare phalloidin-staining and Lifeac-EGFP on the same high-power fields of fixed specimens. The current manuscript compares staining with Lifeact-EGFP and Phalloidin-568 only under low-power magnification (Figure 1).

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. Although the data presented in Figure 1 are tiled images of Phalloidin-568 and Lifeact-EGFP taken on the same fixed specimens on a confocal microscope, we now also include a higher magnification image. This data clearly demonstrates the extensive overlap between Phalloidin, Lifeact-EGFP and SPY650 FastAct dye labelling (Figure 1E).

      Furthermore, we found no significant difference in signal-to-noise ratio of Lifeact-EGFP fluorescence compared to Phalloidin-568 staining (Figure S1).

      Data concerning the apical constriction indicated the versatility and limitations of the Lifeact-EGFP transgenic quail line. The transgenic mouse line carrying ZO1-EGFP transgene, better suited for analyzing the apical constriction issue and employed by Francou et al. (2023), provided cleaner data.

      The dynamics of actin during apical constriction have mostly been studied in invertebrate models where it was revealed that pulsed contractions of a medioapical actomyosin network form a ratchet-like mechanism to drive shrinkage of the apical cell area (Martin, A. C. et al., Nature, 2009; Solon, J. et al., Cell, 2009). More recently, a similar process of pulsatile apical constriction has been demonstrated in Xenopus (Christodoulou, N. and Skourides, P. A., Cell Rep, 2015) and mouse embryos (Francou, A. et al., eLife, 2023). However, the ZO1-EGFP transgenic mouse line labels tight junctions, so the dynamics of actin were inferred from staining of fixed samples by Francou et al. The Lifeact-EGFP transgenic quail line enabled us to both segment the cells and directly measure the intensity and localisation of actin as cells underwent apical constriction in a higher vertebrate embryo, providing direct information about the actin dynamics driving apical area change.

      The significance of the FRAP analysis presented in Figure 4 (F to I) is questionable. (1) The FRAP of Lifeact-EGFP that jumps between G-actin and F-actin was measured. Therefore, the data are a composite of G-actin-bound, F-actin-bound, and free transitory Lifeact-EGFP; the data do not directly reflect actin dynamics. (2) The authors should have measured FRAP at different positions in cells using smaller ROIs at the cell junction, next to the cell junction, and remote from the cell junction. (3) Because the FRAP of their measurements involves different molecular states, the recovery curve should be decomposed into individual components before discussing the difference in the recovery rates. (4) The wide range fluctuation of fluorescence intensity during the recovery process, even using a wide (4 µm × 4 µm) ROI, suggests that the fluorescence level before photobleaching was very low, which indicates a limitation in the use of the transgenic quail line with a single copy of Lifeact-EGFP.

      We apologise if the text was not clear. We did not intend to measure actin dynamics directly, but rather to compare the stability of actin at the vertices of multicellular rosettes of different orders. We used a relatively large ROI (to encompass the vertex) and measured fluorescence recovery at the vertices of lower-order (5-cell) rosettes vs higher-order (8-cell) rosettes to understand if actin stability at the vertex changes as the rosette increases in order. The fluorescence intensity level of the Lifeact-EGFP is high at the vertices of the rosettes (see Fig 4F) and the fluctuation range of fluorescence intensity during recovery was in line with what we have observed previously performing FRAP measurements in living mouse embryos (Samarage*, C.R., White*, M.D., Alvarez*, Y.A et al., Developmental Cell, 2015; Zenker*, J., White*, M. D. et al., Cell, 2018).

      To our knowledge, these are the first FRAP measurements of actin at rosette vertices.

      We have updated the text to clarify as follows:

      "To examine the stability of the actin remaining at the centre of the multicellular rosettes following contraction of the supracellular cables we used Fluorescence Recovery After Photobleaching (FRAP)."

      The authors used three wavelengths to detect fluorescence: DAPI (blue), EGFP (green), and Phaloidin-568 (red). Oddly, the authors presented the EGFP fluorescence in orange and Phaloidin-568 in gray in the pseudocolors.

      We chose to pseudocolour the images to make them accessible to people with colour blindness in accordance with current conventions.

      The data presented indicates that although Lifeact-EGFP-dependent actin labeling is useful for live imaging, its efficacy is restricted by elevated levels of background fluorescence.

      We do not find the live imaging to be restricted by high levels of background noise. Our imaging reveals an average Signal-to-Noise ratio of 1.83 +/- 0.17 (mean +/- sem) in fixed samples in Figure 1. The live imaging revealed a Signal-to-Noise ratio of 1.92 +/- 0.13 for embryos imaged in Figures 2, 3 and 4 which is comparable to the signal in the fixed embryos for both Lifeact-EGFP and Phalloidin-568.

      We can live-image the Lifeact-EGFP embryos at high resolution for extended periods (for example, tiled z-stacks at 40x magnification every 6 - 20 minutes for 4 - 10 hours) with the laser power low enough to avoid phototoxicity. Our imaging data is also of sufficient quality to allow computational segmentation with a high degree of accuracy (as demonstrated in Figures 3 and 4).

      Reviewer 2

      Alvarez and colleagues have generated a transgenic quail line expressing the popular Lifeact-eGFP reporter. This is the first actin reporter line in quail, and enables visualization and characterization of cell shapes and behaviors by following actin-rich structures. The reporter is ubiquitously expressed, and of sufficient brightness to enable high resolution live imaging. To demonstrate its usability, the authors visualized cellular protrusions and actin-rich structures during neural tube closure, migration of cardiac progenitor cells, and examined pulsatile apical constriction in the developing neuroepithelium. These results serve more as a proof-of-principle for the utility of the line rather than an in-depth analysis of any particular cell biology/mechanism, but do contain some insights and avenues for further follow-up. In general this is a nice characterization of a line that I am sure people in the avian embryo field have long been waiting for, and will be in high demand in the future.

      We thank the reviewer for their positive comments and recognition of the usefulness of the Lifeact-EGFP quail as a new model system.

      I have a few minor comments/suggestions:

      1) It would be good if the authors could elaborate on the relative photostability of the line - does it bleach quickly? Show any signs of phototoxicity?

      The photostability is dependent on the imaging conditions. In general, we have not noticed significant bleaching and there are no bleach corrections performed on the movies we show. We do not see signs of phototoxicity with the imaging conditions we are using.

      To address the photostability in more depth we examined our most challenging imaging set-ups. The high spatiotemporal imaging of lamellipodia and actin flow in Figure 1 was performed by imaging a single z-plane at 60x magnification every 5 seconds for 17.25 mins. Despite acquiring over 200 images, there was only a 9.26% loss of Lifeact-EGFP intensity during this intensive imaging.

      For the imaging of apically constricting cells in Figure 3, 4 tiled z-stacks containing 62 z-planes each were taken at 63x magnification every 5.5 mins for 110 mins. We observed an 11.8% loss of Lifeact-EGFP intensity during this time.

      This photostability is comparable to the other transgenic quail lines in our lab (Serralbo, O et al., eLife, 2020) and superior to several zebrafish and genetically modified cell lines we have imaged.

      Additionally, can the animals be maintained as homozygotes?

      The Lifeact-EGFP quails can be maintained as homozygotes and we have now indicated this in the text as follows:

      "The TgT2[UbC:Lifeact-EGFP] quails are viable, phenotypically normal and fertile and can be maintained as heterozygotes or homozygotes."

      2) Did the authors check or are they planning to verify that they did indeed have a single-integration event? Or have bred a sufficient number of generations to eliminate any potential off-target integrations?

      We have bred the Lifeact-EGFP line for enough generations that we are confident we have a single integration event that produces positive transgenics at the expected Mendelian ratio.

      3) In Figure 3: Did Lifeact-eGFP intensity and apical cell area show correlated pulsatile dynamics? They are currently shown separately over the course of constriction but it may be more convincing to show correlation analysis.

      We thank the reviewer for this excellent suggestion. We have revised Figure 3 to overlay the mean Lifeact-EGFP intensity at the apical cortex relative to the cell junctions (medial/junctional Lifeact-EGFP) and apical cell area over time for each embryo. The original separate graphs are still available in the new Figure S3A. We first established that there is a highly significant inverse correlation between medial Lifeact-EGFP intensity and apical cell area in constricting cells in each embryo (Figure S3B). We next examined the correlation between the change in medial Lifeact-EGFP intensity and the change in apical cell area for each constricting cell (Figure S3C). Although there is a high degree of variability between cells, on average we find a moderate, but highly significant correlation of 0.37 +/- 0.05, pWe have now included these results in the new Figure S3 and the text as follows:

      "Measuring the ratio of Lifeact-EGFP signal at the apical cortex relative to the cell junctions revealed an average increase of 71.7%+/- 2.9 % during the first 25% of the reduction in apical cell area (Figs. 3C, S3A-B). The inverse correlation between mean Lifeact-EGFP intensity at the apical cortex and mean apical cell area is highly significant (Fig. S3B). Furthermore, the identified cells did not undergo a constant decrease in apical cell area but instead showed a more pulsatile pattern consistent with a ratchet-like mechanism (Figs. 3C, D). There was a moderate, but highly significant correlation between the rate of change in Lifeact-EGFP intensity at the apical cortex and the change in apical cell area for individual cells (Fig. S3C)."

      4) Did they check for integrins at the filopodia tips?

      We did not check for integrins at the tips of the cardiac progenitor cell filopodia, however, we do see integrins at the tips of filopodia in other cells and these data are part of an ongoing study in our lab.

      5) In Figure 4B it is too hard for the reader to verify that these are indeed actin cables - the overlay interferes with the visualization. Could just be 10 cells coincidentally aligned. Same with Figure 4 J/K

      We have made the overlay partially transparent so that the cables are more visible. The same cable structures are also highlighted without overlays in the blue boxes in Figures 4A and 4J.

      6) Figure 4C and 4L are confusing - what is the repeated number of rosette cells mean? Are these different regions cropped out? What are the rows/columns?

      The images show the computational segmentation of the regions shown in 4A and 4J. Each panel shows the number of rosettes identified of each order (containing 5, 6, 7 or 8 cells) at t = 0h (on the left) and t = 2h (on the right).

      We initially displayed all of the rosettes on a single computational segmentation but felt it was much easier to appreciate the relative number of rosettes of each order when they are presented individually. We have updated the Figure Legend to specify that 4C and 4L show computational segmentations of the images in 4A and 4J.

      7) Time stamps on supplementary movies could be made more visible/better labelled.

      We have enlarged the timestamps on the movies.

      8) Would be helpful to include movies of the processes studied in Figures 3 and 4.

      We have now included movies showing apical constriction (Supplementary Movie 5) and rosette formation (Supplementary Movie 6).

      Reviewer 3

      The manuscript is well-written. The Lifeact-EGFP transgenic quail will be a valuable new amniote model system for in vivo investigations of the actin cytoskeleton to promote cell shape changes and tissue morphogenesis. I recommend that this manuscript be accepted with minor revisions.

      We thank the reviewer for their positive comments and are pleased they view the Lifeact-EGFP quail as a valuable new model system.

      Minor suggestions

      -Please include how many transgenic males and females were obtained from the 50 injections.

      We have now included this in the text as follows:

      "One male and one female founder were identified and mated with wild-type quails to establish lines. After further breeding the lines were indistinguishable and the line from the male founder was selected for long-term maintenance."

      -The authors state, "Cardiac progenitor cell filopodia are on average 9.1μm +/- 0.5μm long and highly dynamic with an average persistence time of 389.1 s +/- 22.9 s (n = 86 filopodia, 4 embryos). Filopodia that contact the surrounding tissues are significantly longer and more persistent than those that do not make contact (11.2μm +/- 0.7μm, n = 42 and 523.6 s +/-34.5 s, n = 37, compared to 7.2μm +/- 0.4μm, n = 44 and 276.0 s +/-20.5 s, n = 44, Fig 2C - E)."

      How does this compare to other similar cells? Does this suggest attraction, repulsion, or nothing? Does the higher filopodia persistence correlate with the cell's persistence, migration velocity or direction?

      The cardiac progenitor cell filopodia are slightly longer and more persistent on average than filopodia detected in other migrating cell types in vivo. For example, neural crest cells form filopodia that are on average 5 - 6um long and persist for 121 s in chick (Genuth, M. A. et al., Developmental Biology, 2018; McLennan, R. et al., Development, 2020) or 10um in length in zebrafish (Boer, E. F. et al., PLoS Genet, 2015). Primordial germ cells in zebrafish extend filopodia which are on average 3.4um long and persist for only 33 +/- 2.5 s (Meyen, D. et al., eLife, 2015). In Xenopus retinal ganglion cells, filopodia were on average 6.7um long and persisted for just 19 s (Blake, T. C. A. et al., Journal of cell science, 2024).

      However, the modes of migration of these cell types are quite distinct with neural crest cells collectively migrating as transiently contacting mesenchymal cells whereas primordial germ cells and retinal ganglion cells migrate individually during the embryonic stages examined. The cardiac progenitor cells form a collectively migrating epithelium which maintains cell-cell contacts and migrates over the endoderm at a speed of 4,99 +/-0.09 um min-1, so it is difficult to draw conclusions about their filopodial dynamics by comparison with other cell types characterised to date.

      The reviewer raises a very interesting question about the relationship between filopodial persistence and the migration behaviour of the individual cell. As the cardiac progenitor cells are migrating as a tightly packed collective, resolving individual cell migration behaviours is very challenging when they are homogenously labelled. To accurately correlate filopodia dynamics with individual cell migration would require highly technically demanding experiments to mosaically label the cardiac progenitor cells and track them and their filopodia dynamics live. While this would undoubtedly be an interesting experiment, we feel it is beyond the scope of the current tools manuscript.

      It is well-known that filopodia are sensors for chemotactic and haptotactic signals, and they set the direction of motility for cells. The authors rightly suggest that actin containing filopodia contact ECM components, but do not support this with any experiments.

      We agree that it would be interesting to investigate the molecular components of the filopodia more thoroughly. However, as a tools paper, our primary motivation was to present the Lifeact-EGFP transgenic quail as a new resource for the scientific community and demonstrate different applications it could be useful for - including as a new model to study filopodia dynamics in vivo.

      Significance

      The manuscript is lacking any novel insights regarding actin dynamics. In general, it would be helpful if the authors discuss the significance of their observations in more detail, especially in their Conclusion, which is brief. By carrying out more creative and insightful experiments, the authors would have offered stronger evidence for the value of the Lifeact-EGFP line to other investigators.

      The primary purpose of this manuscript was to present the Lifeact-EGFP transgenic quail as a new resource for the scientific community and demonstrate different applications it could be useful for. However, we did also make some novel insights:

      • Although neural tube protrusions have been visualised in fixed embryos for many decades, the Lifeact-EGFP transgenic quail enabled us to image them live in high spatiotemporal resolution. This revealed that they are highly dynamic, reach across the open lumen to contact each other and appear to assist in pulling the neural folds together. We also found that neural tube zippering proceeded faster in embryos with more protrusions.
      • We demonstrated that cells in the avian neuroepithelium undergo pulsatile apical constriction associated with the enrichment of medioapical actin.
      • We performed, to our knowledge, the first FRAP of actin at the vertices of multicellular rosettes and found that actin stability increases with higher rosette order.
      • Finally, we confirmed that supracellular actin cable contraction and rosette formation contribute to anisotropic bending of the neural plate during neural tube formation - a prediction made previously based on fixed tissue sections (Nishimura, T. et al., Cell, 2012) but not investigated in living avian embryos. We believe that the range of novel insights we present here demonstrates the significance of the Lifeact-EGFP transgenic quail line as a new tool for investigating vertebrate cytoskeletal dynamics and morphogenesis in vivo.

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    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, Ngo et al. report a peculiar effect where a single base mismatch (CC) can enhance the mechanical stability of a nucleosome. In previous studies, the same group used a similar state-of-the-art fluorescence-force assay to study the unwrapping dynamics of 601-DNA from the nucleosome and observed that force-induced unwrapping happens more slowly for DNA that is more bendable because of changes in sequence or chemical modification. This manuscript appears to be a sequel to this line of projects, where the effect of CC is tested. The authors confirmed that CC is the most flexible mismatch using the FRET-based cyclization assay and found that unwrapping becomes slower when CC is introduced at three different positions in the 601 sequence. The CC mismatch only affects the local unwrapping dynamics of the outer turn of nucleosomal DNA.

      Strengths:

      These results are in good agreement with the previously established correlation between DNA bendability and nucleosome mechanical stability by the same group. This well-executed, technically sound, and well-written experimental study contains novel nucleosome unwrapping data specific to the CC mismatch and 601 sequence, the cyclizability of DNA containing all base pair mismatches, and the unwrapping of 601-DNA from xenophus and yeast histones. Overall, this work will be received with great interest by the biophysics community and is definitely worth attention.

      Weaknesses:

      The scope and impact of this study are somewhat limited due to the lack of sequence variation. Whether the conclusion from this study can be generalized to other sequences and other bendability-enhancing mismatches needs further investigation.

      Major questions:

      (1) As pointed out by the authors, the FRET signal is not sensitive to nucleosome position; therefore, the increasing unwrapping force in the presence of CC can be interpreted as the repositioning of the nucleosome upon perturbation. It is then also possible that CC-containing DNA is not positioned exactly the same as normal DNA from the start upon nucleosome assembly, leading to different unwrapping trajectories. What is the experimental evidence that supports identical positioning of the nucleosomes before the first stretch?

      We added the following and refer to our recent publication1 to address this question.

      “This is consistent with a previous single nucleotide resolution mapping of dyad position from of a library of mismatches in all possible positions along the 601 sequence or a budding yeast native sequence which showed that a single mismatch (A-A or T-T) does not affect the nucleosome position27.”

      (2) The authors chose a constant stretching rate in this study. Can the authors provide a more detailed explanation or rationale for why this rate was chosen? At this rate, the authors found hysteresis, which indicates that stretching is faster than quasi-static. But it must have been slow and weak enough to allow for reversible unwrapping and wrapping of a CC-containing DNA stretch longer than one helical turn. Otherwise, such a strong effect of CC at a single location would not be seen. I am also curious about the biological relevance of the magnitude of the force. Can such force arise during nucleosome assembly in vivo?

      To address the comment about the magnitude of force, we added the following paragraph to Introduction. “RNA polymerase II can initiate transcription at 4 pN of hindering force2 and its elongation activity continues until it stalls at ~ 10 pN of hindering force3,4. Therefore, the transcription machinery can generate picoNewtons of force on chromatin as long as both the machinery and the chromatin segment in contact are tethered to stationary objects in the nucleus. Another class of motor protein, chromatin remodeling enzymes, was also shown to induce processive and directional sliding of single nucleosomes when the DNA is under similar amount of tension (~ 5 pN)5. Therefore, measurements of nucleosomes at a few pN of force will expand our knowledge of the physiology roles of nucleosome structure and dynamics.”

      To address the comment about the stretching rate, we added the following to Results. We note that the physiological loading rate has been challenging to determine for any biomolecular interactions, and the only quantitative measurement we are aware of is that of an integrin that we are citing.

      “The force increases nonlinearly and the loading rate, i.e. the rate at which the force increases, was approximately in the range of 0.2 pN/s to 6 pN/s, similar to the cellular loading rates for a mechanosensitive membrane receptor6.”

      (3) In this study, the CC mismatch is the only change made to the 601 sequence. For readers to truly appreciate its unique effect on unwrapping dynamics as a base pair defect, it would be nice to include the baseline effects of other minor changes to the sequence. For example, how robust is the unwrapping force or dynamics against a single-bp change (e.g., AT to GC) at the three chosen positions?

      Unfortunately, we are unable to perform the suggested unwrapping experiment in a timely manner because the instrument has been disassembled during our recent move. However, we previously performed unwrapping experiments not only as a function of sequence but also as a function of cytosine modification and showed that we can detect even more subtle effects7,8. In addition, please note that we are not claiming that simply changing basepair at the chosen sites changes the mechanical stability of a nucleosome so we do not believe the requested experiment is necessary.

      (4) The last section introduces yeast histones. Based on the theme of the paper, I was expecting to see how the effect of CC is or is not preserved with a different histone source. Instead, the experiment only focuses on differences in the unwrapping dynamics. Although the data presented are important, it is not clear how they fit or support the narrative of the paper without the effect of CC.

      We apologize for giving the reviewer a wrong impression. We included the data because we believe that information on how the histone core can determine the translation of DNA mechanics into nucleosome mechanical stability will be of interest to the readers of this manuscript. We now mention explicitly that the observation was made using intact DNA, i.e. no mismatch, in the abstract and elsewhere.

      (5) It is stated that tRNA was excluded in experiments with yeast-expressed nucleosomes. What is the reason for excluding it for yeast nucleosomes? Did the authors rule out the possibility that tRNA causes the measured difference between the two nucleosome types?

      We normally include tRNA because we found that it reduces sticking of beads to the surface over several hours of experiments. In yeast nucleosomes, we found that tRNA causes the nucleosome to disassemble. Therefore, we did not include tRNA in yeast nucleosome experiments. We now mention this in Methods as reproduced below.

      “tRNA, which we normally include to reduce sticking of beads to the surface over the hours of single molecule experiments in a sealed chamber, was excluded in experiments with yeastexpressed nucleosomes because tRNA induced disassembly of nucleosomes assembled using yeast histones.”

      We cannot not formally rule out the possibility that tRNA causes the measured difference between Xenopus - vs Yeast- nucleosomes. However, we have shown in our previous publication7 that the asymmetric unwrapping in Xenopus nucleosomes was modulated by the DNA sequence. When we swapped the sequence of the inner turn between the two sides, while tRNA was included in all experiments, we observed stochastic unwrapping instead. As part of our response to another reviewer’s comments, we also added the following on the relevant differences between the species in Discussion.

      “The crystal structure of the yeast nucleosome suggests that yeast nucleosome architecture is subtly destabilized in comparison with nucleosomes from higher eukaryotes9. Yeast histone protein sequences are not well conserved relative to vertebrate histones (H2A, 77%; H2B, 73%; H3, 90%; H4, 92% identities), and this divergence likely contributes to differences in nucleosome stability. Substitution of three residues in yeast H3 a3-helix (Q120, K121, K125) very near the nucleosome dyad with corresponding human H3.1/H3.3 residues (QK…K replaced with MP…Q) caused severe growth defects, elevated nuclease sensitivity, reduced nucleosome positioning and nucleosome relocation to preferred locations predicted by DNA sequence alone 10. The yeast histone octamer harboring wild type H3 may be less capable of wrapping DNA over the histone core, leading to reduced resistance to the unwrapping force for the more flexible half of the 601positioning sequence.”

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Mismatches occur as a result of DNA polymerase errors, chemical modification of nucleotides, during homologous recombination between near-identical partners, as well as during gene editing on chromosomal DNA. Under some circumstances, such mismatches may be incorporated into nucleosomes but their impact on nucleosome structure and stability is not known. The authors use the well-defined 601 nucleosome positioning sequence to assemble nucleosomes with histones on perfectly matched dsDNA as well as on ds DNA with defined mismatches at three nucleosomal positions. They use the R18, R39, and R56 positions situated in the middle of the outer turn, at the junction between the outer turn and inner turn, and in the middle of the inner turn, respectively. Most experiments are carried out with CC mismatches and Xenopus histones. Unwrapping of the outer DNA turn is monitored by singlemolecule FRET in which the Cy3 donor is incorporated on the 68th nucleotide from the 5'-end of the top strand and the Cy5 acceptor is attached to the 7th nucleotide from the 5' end of the bottom strand. Force is applied to the nucleosomal DNA as FRET is monitored to assess nucleosome unwrapping. The results show that a CC mismatch enhances nucleosome mechanical stability. Interestingly, yeast and Xenopus histones show different behaviors in this assay. The authors use FRET to measure the cyclization of the dsDNA substrates to test the hypothesis that mismatches enhance the flexibility of the 601 dsDNA fragment and find that CC, CA, CT, TT, and AA mismatches decrease looping time, whereas GA, GG, and GT mismatches had little to no effect. These effects correlate with the results from DNA buckling assays reported by Euler's group (NAR 41, 2013) using the same mismatches as an orthogonal way to measure DNA kinking. The authors discuss that substitution rates are higher towards the middle of the nucleosome, suggesting that mismatches/DNA damage at this position are less accessible for repair, consistent with the nucleosome stability results.

      Strengths:

      The single-molecule data show clear and consistent effects of mismatches on nucleosome stability and DNA persistence length.

      Weaknesses:

      It is unclear in the looping assay how the cyclization rate relates to the reporting looping time. The biological significance and implications such as the effect on mismatch repair or nucleosome remodelers remain untested. It is unclear whether the mutational pattern reflects the behavior of the different mismatches. Such a correlation could strengthen the argument that the observed effects are relevant for mutagenesis.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The mechanical properties of DNA wrapped in nucleosomes affect the stability of nucleosomes and may play a role in the regulation of DNA accessibility in eukaryotes. In this manuscript, Ngo and coworkers study how the stability of a nucleosome is affected by the introduction of a CC mismatched base pair, which has been reported to increase the flexibility of DNA. Previously, the group has used a sophisticated combination of single-molecule FRET and force spectroscopy with an optical trap to show that the more flexible half of a 601 DNA segment provides for more stable wrapping as compared to the other half. Here, it is confirmed with a single-molecule cyclization essay that the introduction of a CC mismatch increases the flexibility of a DNA fragment. Consistent with the previous interpretation, it also increased the unwrapping force for the half of the 601 segment in which the CC mismatch was introduced, as measured with single-molecule FRET and force spectroscopy. Enhanced stability was found up to 56 bp into the nucleosome. The intricate role of mechanical stability of nucleosomes was further investigated by comparing force-induced unwrapping profiles of yeast and Xenopus histones. Intriguingly, asymmetric unwrapping was more pronounced for yeast histones.

      Strengths:

      (1) High-quality single-molecule data.

      (2) Novel mechanism, potentially explaining the increased prominence of mutations near the dyads of nucleosomes.

      (3) A clear mechanistic explanation of how mismatches affect nucleosome stability.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Disconnect between mismatches in nucleosomes and measurements comparing Xenopus and yeast nucleosome stability.

      (2) Convoluted data in cyclization experiments concerning the phasing of mismatches and biotin site. ---

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Specific comments:

      In Figure 1 legend, "the black diamonds on the DNA bends represent the mismatch position with R18 and R39 on minor grooves and R56 on a major groove." Minor and major grooves should be phrased as histone-facing minor and major grooves.

      We fixed the problem.

      In Materials and Methods, the sentence that describes the stretching rate cites reference 1, which does not seem to be relevant.

      We fixed the problem.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) In the introduction, the authors should also discuss the context of mismatches occurring during homologous recombination in meiosis or somatic cells in non-allelic recombination between near identical repeats.

      Introduction now has the following.

      “DNA base-base mismatches are generated by nucleotide misincorporation during DNA synthesis, meiotic recombination, somatic recombination between nearly identical repeats, or chemical modification such as hydrolytic deamination of cytosine.”

      (2) Generally, it seems counter-intuitive in terms of biology that mismatches containing nucleosomes are more stable, as mismatches require repair and/or detection for heteroduplex rejection during recombination. Some discussion of this apparent paradox should be added.

      To address this comment, we added the following to Discussion.

      “The higher frequency of substitutions in the nucleosomal DNA may be attributed to the difficulty of accessing the extra-stable nucleosomes. We also note that even without an enhanced stability, a mismatch within a nucleosome would be more difficult to detect for mismatch repair machineries compared to a mismatch in a non-nucleosomal DNA. Because mismatch repair machineries accompany the replisome, most of nascent mismatches may be detected for repair before nucleosome deposition. Therefore, the decrease in accessibility predicted based on our data here may be important only in rare cases a mismatch is not detected prior to the deposition of a nucleosome on the nascent DNA or in cases where a mismatch is generated via a non-replicative mechanism.”

      (3) The authors discuss that the substitution rate is higher while the indel (insertion and deletion) rate is lower nearer the center of a positioned nucleosome. Are the differences between individual mismatches reported in Figure 6 reflected in the mutagenic profile?

      We cannot currently compare them because the mutagenic profile even when it is available is a complex convolution of mismatch generation, mismatch repair and selection. Mismatch generation occurs through several different processes and how they are affected by nucleosomes and their mismatch type and sequence context is unknown. Mismatch repair process itself depends on mismatch type and sequence context as recently shown by a high throughput in vivo study11. And because the population genetics does not simply reflect de novo mutation profiles due to selection, comparison between mismatch-induced DNA mechanical changes and mutagenic profiles is further complicated. We added the following to the revision.

      “If and how the mismatch type-dependent DNA mechanics affects the sequence-dependent mismatch repair efficiency in vivo, as recently determined in a high through study in E. coli11, remains to be investigated. Comparison of mismatch-type dependent DNA mechanics to population genetics data is challenging because mutation profiles reflect a combined outcome of mismatch-generation, mismatch repair and selection in addition to other mutational processes.”

      (4) The looping assay should be explained better, especially how the cyclization rate is related to the reported looping time.

      We modified Figure 5 to include examples of looping time determination through fitting of the looped fraction vs time, and added the following to the figure caption.

      “To calculate the looping time, the fraction of looped molecules (high FRET) as a function of time is fitted to an exponential function, 𝑒−𝑡⁄(𝑙𝑜𝑜𝑝𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑡𝑖𝑚𝑒) (right panel for one run of experiments).

      Furthermore, we added the following sentence to Results.

      “The rate of loop formation, which is the inverse of looping time determined from an exponential fitting of loop fraction vs time, was used as a measure of apparent DNA flexibility influenced by a mismatch 12,13.”

      *Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I have some concerns that, when addressed upon revision, would improve the manuscript:

      (1) Page 6 and Supplementary Figure S1C: Though the FRET levels are the same for all nucleosomes, the distribution between the two levels is not. The nucleosomes with CC mismatches appear to have a larger fraction in the low-FRET population. This seems to contradict the higher mechanical stability. A comment on this should clarify it, or make this conundrum explicit.

      Thank you for the comment. The low FRET population also includes the nucleosomes that do not have an active acceptor the fraction of which varies between preparations. We now note this in the supplementary figure caption.

      (2) It is intriguing that a more stable nucleosome forms after several pulling cycles and it is argued that this might be due to shifting of the nucleosome. This seems reasonable and has important consequences both for the interpretation of the current experimental data and for the general mechanisms involved in nucleosome maintenance and remodeling. It is puzzling though how this would work mechanistically since it only seems to happen when nucleosomes are half-wrapped and when the unwrapped half contains the mismatch. From the previous work of the group and the current manuscript, it seems that shift does not occur in DNA without mismatches (Correct?). Does shifting happen for the 601-R18 and 601-R56 nucleosomes as well?

      The mismatch-containing half is the half that is mechanically less stable in an intact, mismatch-free 601 nucleosome. So indeed, that is the half that is unwrapped in an intact nucleosome. But because the introduction of mismatch makes that half more mechanically stable, it can stay wrapped until higher forces, and the resulting structural distortion may cause the shift although we acknowledge that this interpretation remains speculative. Shifting occurs for all three constructs with a mismatch but not for the intact nucleosome without a mismatch.

      (3) Could the shifting be related to the differences in sub-population distribution observed in Supplementary Figure S1C?

      /See our response to comment (1) above.

      (4) The paper would have more impact if the mechanism of possible shifting could be clarified. This can be done experimentally with a fluorescent histone, as suggested in the manuscript. But having a FRET pair on positions in the DNA that would shift to closer proximity upon shifting, either at the ED2 or at the ED1 site will also work, is in line with the current experiments and seems feasible.

      We revised the text as follows in order not to exclude labeling configurations with both fluorophores on the DNA while reporting on the shift. We are also happy to add an appropriate reference if the reviewer can help us identify an existing study that measured dyad position shifts through such a labeling configuration.

      “However, since the FRET values in our DNA construct are not sensitive to the nucleosome position, further experiments with fluorophores conjugated to strategic positions that allow discrimination between different dyad positions14 will be required to test this hypothesis.”

      (5) Figures 5 and 6: To appreciate the quality of the data, state the number of molecules that contributed to the cyclization essay, or better, share a figure of the number of looped molecules as a function of time as supplementary data.

      We added the requested figures to Figure 5 and a new supplementary Figure 2, and added the following to Methods.

      “Approximately 2500 – 3500 molecules were quantified at each timestamp during the experiment, and three independent experiments were performed for each sequence (Supplemental Figure S2).”

      (6) Page 8/9: A control is added to confirm that the phasing of the biotin relative to the end affects the observed cyclization rate. However, the mismatch sites were chosen such that they included 5 bp phase shifts. This convolutes the outcomes, as the direction of flexibility due to the phasing of the mismatch relative to the biotin may also influence the rate. Was this checked?

      We would like to clarify that the phasing of the biotin is not so much as with respect to the end, as it is with respect to the full molecule. Static curvature and poloidal angle associated with the DNA molecule (which is something that is ultimately determined by the full chemical composition of the molecule, including its sequence and the mismatch) could make the molecule prefer a looped configuration where the biotin points towards the “inside” of the molecule. Such a configuration would be sterically unfavoured during the single molecule looping reaction where the biotin is attached to a surface via avidin. However, if the biotin is moved by half the helical repeat (or an off multiple of half the helical repeat, essentially 16 nt as done in the manuscript), it would now point to the “outside” of the molecule. Therefore, to make sure that the difference between the looping rates of any two DNA constructs (say the 601-RH and 601-R18-RH) is a better reflection of differences in dynamic flexibility, we ensure that the difference persists even when the biotin is moved by an odd multiple of half the helical repeat. We revised the section as follows.

      “For example, moving the location of the biotin tether by half the helical repeat (~ 5 bp) can lead to a large change in cyclization rate15, likely due to the preferred poloidal angle of a given DNA16 that determines whether the biotin is facing towards the inside of the circularized DNA, thereby hindering cyclization due to steric hindrance caused by surface tethering.”

      (7) Page 9/10: The comparison of yeast vs Xenopus is interesting, albeit a bit disconnected. Since the single-molecule statistics are relatively small, did the nucleosomes show similar bulk FRET distributions, or did they also show a shift in FRET levels?

      We included the data because we believe that information on how the histone core can determine the translation of DNA mechanics into nucleosome mechanical stability will be of interest to the readers of this manuscript. The FRET values were similarly distributed.

      (8) The discussion calls for a more detailed analysis of the structural differences of the histones of the two species to rationalize the observed asymmetry in flexibility dependence: why would yeast nucleosomes be less sensitive to sequence asymmetries?

      We added the following to Discussion to address this comment.

      “The crystal structure of the yeast nucleosome suggests that yeast nucleosome architecture is subtly destabilized in comparison with nucleosomes from higher eukaryotes9. Yeast histone protein sequences are not well conserved relative to vertebrate histones (H2A, 77%; H2B, 73%; H3, 90%; H4, 92% identities), and this divergence likely contributes to differences in nucleosome stability. Substitution of three residues in yeast H3 3-helix (Q120, K121, K125) very near the nucleosome dyad with corresponding human H3.1/H3.3 residues (QK…K replaced with MP…Q) caused severe growth defects, elevated nuclease sensitivity, reduced nucleosome positioning and nucleosome relocation to preferred locations predicted by DNA sequence alone 10. The yeast histone octamer harboring wild type H3 may be less capable of wrapping DNA over the histone core, leading to reduced resistance to the unwrapping force for the more flexible half of the 601positioning sequence.”

      (9) It would also be interesting if the increased stability due to the introduction of mismatches observed on Xenopus nucleosomes holds in yeast. Or does the reduced stability remove this effect? This is relevant to substantiate the broad claims in the context of evolution and cancer that are discussed in the manuscript.

      Unfortunately, we are unable to perform the suggested unwrapping experiment in a timely manner because the instrument has been disassembled during our recent move. However, in terms of cancer relevance, our mismatch dependence experiments were performed using vertebrate nucleosomes (Xenopus) so repeating this for yeast nucleosomes would not provide relevant information.

      Minor comments:

      (1) Supplementary Figure S1 misses the label '(C)' in its caption.

      We fixed it.

      (2) The supplementary data sequences for the fleezer measurements contain entrees 'R39 construct' and miss the positions of the Cy3 and Cy labels; the color code (levels of grey) is not explained.

      We fixed the labeling mistake and added detailed annotations of the highlighted features.

      References

      (1) Park, S., Brandani, G.B., Ha, T. & Bowman, G.D. Bi-directional nucleosome sliding by the Chd1 chromatin remodeler integrates intrinsic sequence-dependent and ATP-dependent nucleosome positioning. Nucleic Acids Res 51, 10326-10343 (2023).

      (2) Fazal, F.M., Meng, C.A., Murakami, K., Kornberg, R.D. & Block, S.M. Real-time observation of the initiation of RNA polymerase II transcription. Nature 525, 274-7 (2015).

      (3) Galburt, E.A., Grill, S.W., Wiedmann, A., Lubkowska, L., Choy, J., Nogales, E., Kashlev, M. & Bustamante, C. Backtracking determines the force sensitivity of RNAP II in a factor-dependent manner. Nature 446, 820-3 (2007).

      (4) Schweikhard, V., Meng, C., Murakami, K., Kaplan, C.D., Kornberg, R.D. & Block, S.M. Transcription factors TFIIF and TFIIS promote transcript elongation by RNA polymerase II by synergistic and independent mechanisms. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 111, 6642-7 (2014).

      (5) Kim, J.M., Carcamo, C.C., Jazani, S., Xie, Z., Feng, X.A., Yamadi, M., Poyton, M., Holland, K.L., Grimm, J.B., Lavis, L.D., Ha, T. & Wu, C. Dynamic 1D Search and Processive Nucleosome Translocations by RSC and ISW2 Chromatin Remodelers. bioRxiv (2024). (6) Jo, M.H., Meneses, P., Yang, O., Carcamo, C.C., Pangeni, S. & Ha, T. Determination of singlemolecule loading rate during mechanotransduction in cell adhesion. Science (in press).

      (7) Ngo, T.T., Zhang, Q., Zhou, R., Yodh, J.G. & Ha, T. Asymmetric unwrapping of nucleosomes under tension directed by DNA local flexibility. Cell 160, 1135-44 (2015).

      (8) Ngo, T.T., Yoo, J., Dai, Q., Zhang, Q., He, C., Aksimentiev, A. & Ha, T. Effects of cytosine modifications on DNA flexibility and nucleosome mechanical stability. Nat Commun 7, 10813 (2016).

      (9) White, C.L., Suto, R.K. & Luger, K. Structure of the yeast nucleosome core particle reveals fundamental changes in internucleosome interactions. EMBO J 20, 5207-18 (2001).

      (10) McBurney, K.L., Leung, A., Choi, J.K., Martin, B.J., Irwin, N.A., Bartke, T., Nelson, C.J. & Howe, L.J. Divergent Residues Within Histone H3 Dictate a Unique Chromatin Structure in Saccharomyces cerevisiae. Genetics 202, 341-9 (2016).

      (11) Kayikcioglu, T., Zarb, J.S., Lin, C.-T., Mohapatra, S., London, J.A., Hansen, K.D., Rishel, R. & Ha, T. Massively parallel single molecule tracking of sequence-dependent DNA mismatch repair in vivo. bioRxiv, 2023.01.08.523062 (2023).

      (12) Jeong, J., Le, T.T. & Kim, H.D. Single-molecule fluorescence studies on DNA looping. Methods 105, 34-43 (2016).

      (13) Jeong, J. & Kim, H.D. Base-Pair Mismatch Can Destabilize Small DNA Loops through Cooperative Kinking. Phys Rev Lett 122, 218101 (2019).

      (14) Blosser, T.R., Yang, J.G., Stone, M.D., Narlikar, G.J. & Zhuang, X. Dynamics of nucleosome remodelling by individual ACF complexes. Nature 462, 1022-7 (2009).

      (15) Basu, A., Bobrovnikov, D.G., Qureshi, Z., Kayikcioglu, T., Ngo, T.T.M., Ranjan, A., Eustermann, S., Cieza, B., Morgan, M.T., Hejna, M., Rube, H.T., Hopfner, K.P., Wolberger, C., Song, J.S. & Ha, T. Measuring DNA mechanics on the genome scale. Nature 589, 462-467 (2021).

      (16) Yoo, J., Park, S., Maffeo, C., Ha, T. & Aksimentiev, A. DNA sequence and methylation prescribe the inside-out conformational dynamics and bending energetics of DNA minicircles. Nucleic Acids Res 49, 11459-11475 (2021).

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Responses to Reviewer 1:

      It wouldn't be very surprising to identify the association between PhenoAgeAccel and cancer risk, since the PhenoAgeAccel was constructed as a predictor for mortality which attributed a lot to cancer. Although cancer is an essential mediator for the association, sensitivity analyses using cancer-free mortality may provide an additional angle.

      As suggested, we retrained the PhenoAge in cancer-free participants based on mortality and recalculated PhenoAgeAccel in the UK Biobank. As expected, the re-calculated PhenoAgeAccel was still significantly associated with an increased risk of overall cancer in both men and women. The relevant results have been added to Appendix 1-table6.

      It would be interesting to see, to what extent, PhenoAgeAccel could be reversed by environmental or lifestyle factors. G by E for PhenoAgeAccel might be worth a try.

      As suggested, we performed interaction analysis between genetic and lifestyle factors on PhenoAgeAccel, and added the methods and results in the revision as follows:

      “55 independent PhenoAgeAccel-associated SNPs (P < 5 × 10-8) and corresponding effect sizes were derived from a large-scale PhenoAgeAccel GWAS including 107,460 individuals of European ancestry (Kuo, Pilling, Liu, Atkins, & Levine, 2021). A PhenoAgeAccel PRS was created using an additive model as previously described (Dai et al., 2019). In short, the genotype dosage of each risk allele for each individual was summed after multiplying by its respective effect size of PhenoAgeAccel.” (Page 6)

      “We performed additive interaction analysis between genetic risk (defined by CPRS) and PhenoAgeAccel on overall cancer risk, as well as genetic risk (defined by PhenoAgeAccel PRS) and lifestyle on PhenoAgeAccel using two indexes: the relative excess risk due to interaction (RERI) and the attributable proportion due to interaction (AP).” (Page 9)

      “However, we did not observe any interaction between genetic risk and lifestyle on PhenoAgeAccel in both men and women (Appendix 1-table 11).” (Page 13)

      Responses to Reviewer 2:

      Since the UK biobank has a large sample size, it should have enough power to split the dataset into discovery and validation sets. Why did the authors use 10-fold cross-validation instead of splitting the dataset?

      There may have been some misunderstandings in the interpretation of methods that 10-fold cross-validation was applied to select biomarkers when calculating PhenoAge in the previous manuscript (Levine et al., 2018). In this study, we analyzed the association between PhenoAgeAccel and incident cancer risk by dividing participants into ten groups based on the deciles of PhenoAgeAccel and assessed the associations of each group compared to the lowest decile. To avoid any confusion, we have removed the description of 10-fold cross-validation from the Methods section (Page 5).

      Recommendations for the authors:

      In addition, there is extant literature on the role of Phenotypic Age Acceleration in cancer risk and mortality that should be reviewed. Please also address possible overlap with previous work that used the UK Biobank cohort study (PMCID: PMC9958377).

      As suggested, we have reviewed the association of Phenotypic Age Acceleration with cancer risk, and added it into the Discussion section as follows:

      “Recently, several studies have confirmed the associations between PhenoAgeAccel and cancer risk. Mak et al. explored three measures of biological age, including PhenoAge, and assessed their associations with the incidence of overall cancer and five common cancers (breast, prostate, lung, colorectal, and melanoma) (Mak et al., 2023). In our previous study, we investigated the association between PhenoAgeAccel and lung cancer risk and analyzed the joint and interactive effects of PhenoAgeAccel and genetic factors on the risk of lung cancer (Ma et al., 2023). In comparison to these studies, our analysis expanded the range of cancers to 20 types and further explored the associations in different genetic and lifestyle contexts. Moreover, we also evaluated the potential implications of PhenoAge in population-level cancer screening.” (Page 15).

      Other minor comments:

      Line 216, "-4.35 to -1.25" or "-4.35, -1.25" may be better.

      As suggested, we have adjusted text accordingly.

      Line 260, please clarify the PRS used for G by E interaction testing. It could be site-specific PRS or CPRS.

      We used CPRS for G by E interaction testing, and we have changed the description of our methods as follows:

      “We performed additive interaction analysis between genetic risk (defined by CPRS) and PhenoAgeAccel on overall cancer risk, as well as genetic risk (defined by PhenoAgeAccel PRS) and lifestyle on PhenoAgeAccel using two indexes: the relative excess risk due to interaction (RERI) and the attributable proportion due to interaction (AP).” (Page 9)

      Line 223, The discussion/interpretation for "while negatively associated with risk of prostate cancer" is lacking.

      As suggested, we have discussed this as follows:

      “In addition, we observed a negative association between PhenoAgeAccel and prostate cancer risk. The unexpected association may have been confounded by diabetes and altered glucose metabolism, both of which are closely linked to aging. When we removed HbA1c and serum glucose from the biological age algorithms, the association became non-statistically significant. Similar findings were also reported by Mak et al. (Mak et al., 2023) and Dugue et al. (Dugue et al., 2021).” (Page 15).

      It is not clear how to define "biologically older" and "biologically younger". Whether the individuals fall in the "middle area" will impact the results.

      We defined "biologically older" and "biologically younger" based on Phenotypic Age Acceleration (PhenoAgeAccel), which was defined as the residual obtained from a linear model when regressing Phenotypic Age on chronological age. We categorized individuals with PhenoAgeAccel > 0 as biologically older and those with PhenoAgeAccel < 0 as biologically younger.

      Compared with individuals at low accelerated aging (the bottom quintile of PhenoAgeAccel), we found those in the "middle area" (quintiles 2 to 4) and high accelerated aging (the top quintile) had a significantly higher risk of overall cancer (Table 2). Individuals fall in the "middle area" also had a moderate risk of overall cancer, when reclassified accelerated aging levels according to quartiles or tertiles of the PhenoAgeAccel (Appendix 1-table 2).

      Do men and women have distinct biological ages, so they were analyzed separately?

      We found that men (median PhenoAgeAccel: 0.34, IQR: -2.42 to 3.53) have higher biological ages than women (median PhenoAgeAccel: -1.38, IQR: -4.26 to 1.96) (P < 0.0001). In addition, men and women have different cancer incidence patterns (Rubin, 2022). Therefore, we conducted separate analyses to investigate the associations of PhenoAgeAccel with cancer risk in men and women.

      Dai, J., Lv, J., Zhu, M., Wang, Y., Qin, N., Ma, H., . . . Shen, H. (2019). Identification of risk loci and a polygenic risk score for lung cancer: a large-scale prospective cohort study in Chinese populations. Lancet Respir Med, 7(10), 881-891. doi: 10.1016/S2213-2600(19)30144-4

      Dugue, P. A., Bassett, J. K., Wong, E. M., Joo, J. E., Li, S., Yu, C., . . . Milne, R. L. (2021). Biological Aging Measures Based on Blood DNA Methylation and Risk of Cancer: A Prospective Study. JNCI Cancer Spectr, 5(1). doi: 10.1093/jncics/pkaa109

      Kuo, C. L., Pilling, L. C., Liu, Z., Atkins, J. L., & Levine, M. E. (2021). Genetic associations for two biological age measures point to distinct aging phenotypes. Aging Cell, 20(6), e13376. doi: 10.1111/acel.13376

      Levine, M. E., Lu, A. T., Quach, A., Chen, B. H., Assimes, T. L., Bandinelli, S., . . . Horvath, S. (2018). An epigenetic biomarker of aging for lifespan and healthspan. Aging (Albany NY), 10(4), 573-591. doi: 10.18632/aging.101414

      Ma, Z., Zhu, C., Wang, H., Ji, M., Huang, Y., Wei, X., . . . Shen, H. (2023). Association between biological aging and lung cancer risk: Cohort study and Mendelian randomization analysis. iScience, 26(3), 106018. doi: 10.1016/j.isci.2023.106018

      Mak, J. K. L., McMurran, C. E., Kuja-Halkola, R., Hall, P., Czene, K., Jylhava, J., & Hagg, S. (2023). Clinical biomarker-based biological aging and risk of cancer in the UK Biobank. Br J Cancer, 129(1), 94-103. doi: 10.1038/s41416-023-02288-w

      Rubin, J. B. (2022). The spectrum of sex differences in cancer. Trends Cancer, 8(4), 303-315. doi: 10.1016/j.trecan.2022.01.013

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      General comments

      All three experts have raised excellent ideas and made important suggestions to extend the scope of our study and provide additional information. While we fully acknowledge that these points are valid and would provide exciting new knowledge, we also should not lose track of the fact that a single study cannot cover all bases. Sulfated steroids, for example, are clearly essential components of mouse urine. Unfortunately, however, all chemical analysis approaches are limited and the one we opted for is not suitable for analysis of such signaling molecules. Future studies should certainly focus on these aspects. The same holds true for the fact that we do not know which of the identified compounds are actually VSN ligands. These are inherent limitations of the approach, and we are not claiming otherwise.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      (1) In this manuscript, Nagel et al. sought to comprehensively characterize the composition of urinary compounds, some of which are putative chemosignals. They used urines from adult males and females in three different strains, including one wild-derived strain. By performing mass spectrometry of two classes of compounds: volatile organic compounds and proteins, they found that urines from inbred strains are qualitatively similar to those of a wild strain. This finding is significant because there is a high degree of genetic diversity in wild mice, with chemosensory receptor genes harboring many polymorphisms.

      We agree and thank the Reviewer for his / her positive assessment.

      (2) In the second part of this work, the authors used calcium imaging to monitor the pattern of vomeronasal neuron responses to these urines. By performing pairwise comparisons, the authors found a large degree of strain-specific response and a relatively minor response to sex-specific urinary stimuli. This is a finding generally in agreement with previous calcium imaging work by Ron Yu and colleagues in 2008. The authors extend the previous work by using urines from wild mice. They further report that the concentration diversity of urinary compounds in different urine batches is largely uncorrelated with the activity profiles of these urines. In addition, the authors found that the patterns of vomeronasal neuron response to urinary cues are not identical when measured using different recipient strains. This fascinating finding, however, requires an additional control to exclude the possibility that this is not due to sampling error.

      We thank Reviewer 1 for pointing this out. We agree that this is truly a “fascinating finding.” Reviewer 1 emphasizes that we need to add an “additional control to exclude […] that this is not due to sampling error”, and he / she elaborates on the required control in his / her Recommendations For The Authors (see below). Reviewer 1 states that “for Fig. 5, in order to conclude that the same urine activates a different population of VSNs in two different strains, a critical control is needed to demonstrate that this is not due to the sampling variability - as compositions of V1Rs and V2Rs could vary between different slices, one preferred control is to use VNO slices from the same strain and compare the selectivity used here across the A-P axis.” Importantly, we believe that this is already controlled for. In fact, for each experiment, we routinely prepare VNO slices along the organ’s entire anterior-to-posterior axis (not including the most anterior tip, where the VNO lumen tapers into the vomeronasal duct, and the most posterior part, the lumen ‘‘twists’’ toward the ventral aspect and its volume decreases (see Figs. 7 & S7 in Hamacher et al., 2024, Current Biology)). This usually yields ~7 slices per individual experiment / session. Therefore, we routinely sample and average across the entire VNO anterior-to-posterior axis for each experiment. In Fig. 5, in which we analyzed whether the “same urine activates a different population of VSNs in two different strains”, individual independent experiments from each strain (C57BL/6 versus BALB/c) amounted to (a) n = 6 versus n = 8; (b) n = 10 versus n = 10; (c) n = 7 versus n = 9; (d) n = 9 versus n = 10; (e) n = 10 versus n = 9; and (f) n = 12 versus n = 10. Together, we conclude that it is very unlikely that the considerably different response profiles measured in different recipient strains result from a “sampling error.”

      To clarify this point in the revised manuscript, we now explain our sampling routine in more detail in the Materials and Methods. Moreover, we now also refer to this point in the Results.

      (3) There are several weaknesses in this manuscript, including the lack of analysis of the compositions of sulfated steroids and other steroids, which have been proposed to be the major constituents of vomeronasal ligands in urines and the indirect (correlational) nature of their mass spectrometry data and activity data.

      Reviewer 1 is correct to point out that our chemical profiling approach omits (sulfated) steroids. We are aware of this weakness. We deliberately decided to omit steroids as well as other nonvolatile small organic molecules for three main reasons: (i) as the reviewer points out, (sulfated) steroid composition has been the focus of analysis in several previous studies and there is ample published information available on their role as VSN stimuli; (ii) the analytical tools available to us do not allow comprehensive profiling of non-volatile small organic molecules; employing two-dimensional head-space GC-MS as well as LC-MS/MS is not suitable for steroid detection; and (iii) the relatively small sample volumes forced us to prioritize and focus on specific chemical classes (in our case, VOCs and proteins). We made an effort to use of the exact same stimuli as previously employed to investigate sensory representations in the accessory olfactory bulb (AOB) (Bansal et al., 2021), a feature that we consider a strength of the current study. However, this entailed that we had to effectively split our samples, further reducing the available sample volume.

      We acknowledge that we did not sufficiently describe our rationale for focusing on VOCs and proteins on the previous version of the manuscript (nor did we discuss the known role of (sulfated) steroids in VSN signaling in adequate detail). We have now made an effort to address these shortcomings in the revised manuscript. Specifically, we have added new text to the Introduction (“Prominent molecularly identified VSN stimuli include various sulfated steroids (Celsi et al., 2012; Fu et al., 2015; Haga-Yamanaka et al., 2015, 2014; Isogai et al., 2011; Nodari et al., 2008; Turaga and Holy, 2012), which could reflect the dynamic endocrine state of an individual.”) and the Discussion (“Notably, our chemical profiling approach omits (sulfated) steroids other non-volatile small organic molecules, which have previously been identified in mouse urine as VSN stimuli (Nodari et al., 2008). Caution should thus be exerted to not attempt to fully explain VSN response specificity based on VOC and protein content alone.” & “In line with the notion of highly selective vomeronasal sampling is our observation that the concentration differences between compounds shared among strains, which are often substantial, are not reflected by similarly pronounced differences in response strength among generalist VSNs. There are several, not necessarily mutually exclusive explanations for this finding: First, concentration could simply not be a read-out parameter for VSNs, which would support previous ideas of concentration-invariant VSN activity (Leinders-Zufall et al., 2000). Second, the concentrations in freshly released urine could just exceed the dynamic tuning range of VSNs since, particularly for VOCs, natural signals (e.g., in scent marks) must be accessible to a recipient for a prolonged amount of time (sometimes days). A similar rationale could explain the increased protein concentrations in male urine, since male mice use scent marking to establish and maintain their territories and urinary lipocalins serve as long-lasting reservoirs of VOCs (Hurst et al., 1998). Third, generalist VSNs might sample information only from a select subset of urinary compounds, which, given their role as biologically relevant chemosignals, might be released at tightly controlled (and thus similar) concentrations. In fact, in the most extreme scenario, several compounds that do display substantial strain- and/or sex-specific differences in concentration might not act as chemosignals at all. Forth, to some extent, different response profiles could be attributed to non-volatile small organic molecules such as steroids (Nodari et al., 2008), which were beyond the focus of our chemical analysis.”).

      (4) Overall, the major contribution of this work is the identification of specific molecules in mouse urines. This work is likely to be of significant interest to researchers in chemosensory signaling in mammals and provides a systematic avenue to exhaustively identify vomeronasal ligands in the future.

      We thank the Reviewer for his / her generally positive assessment.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      (1) This manuscript by Nagel et al provides a comprehensive examination of the chemical composition of mouse urine (an important source of semiochemicals) across strain and sex, and correlates these differences with functional responses of vomeronasal sensory neurons (an important sensory population for detecting chemical social cues). The strength of the work lies in the careful and comprehensive imaging and chemical analyses, the rigor of quantification of functional responses, and the insight into the relevance of olfactory work on lab-derived vs wild-derived mice.

      We thank the Reviewer for his / her generally positive assessment.

      (2) With regards to the chemical analysis, the reader should keep in mind that a difference in the concentration of a chemical across strain or sex does not necessarily mean that that chemical is used for chemical communication. In the most extreme case, the animals may be completely insensitive to the chemical. Thus, the fact that the repertoire of proteins and volatiles could potentially allow sex and/or strain discrimination, it is unclear to what degree both are used in different situations.

      Reviewer 2 is correct to point out that sex- and/or strain-dependent differences in urine molecular composition do not automatically attribute a signaling function to those molecules. We concur and, in fact, stress this point many times throughout the manuscript. In the Results, for example, we point out (i) that “in female urine, BALB/c-specific proteins are substantially underrepresented, a fact not reflected by VSN response profiles”, (ii) that “as observed in C57BL/6 neurons, the skewed distributions of protein concentration indices were not reflected by BALB/c generalist VSN profiles”, and (iii) that “VSN population response profiles do not reflect the global molecular content of urine, suggesting that the VNO functions as a rather selective molecular detector.” Moreover, in the Discussion, we state (i) that “caution should thus be exerted to not attempt to fully explain VSN response specificity based on VOC and protein content alone”; (ii) that, for several sex- and/or strain-specific molecules, none “has previously been attributed a chemosensory function. Challenging the mouse VNO with purified recombinant protein(s) will help elucidate whether such functions exist”; (iii) that “generalist VSNs might sample information only from a select subset of urinary compounds, which, given their role as biologically relevant chemosignals, might be released at tightly controlled (and thus similar) concentrations”; and (iv) that “to some extent, different response profiles could be attributed to non-volatile small organic molecules such as steroids (Nodari et al., 2008), which were beyond the focus of our chemical analysis.”

      In the revised manuscript, we now aim to even more strongly emphasize the point made by Reviewer 2. In the Discussion, we have deleted a sentence that read: “Sex- and strain-specific chemical profiles give rise to unique VSN activity patterns.” Moreover, we have added the following statement: “In fact, in the most extreme scenario, several compounds that do display substantial strain- and/or sex-specific differences in concentration might not act as chemosignals at all.”

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      (1) One of the primary objectives in this study is to ascertain the extent to which the response profiles of VSNs are specific to sex and strain. The design of these Ca2+ imaging experiments uses a simple stimulus design, using two interleaved bouts of stimulation with pairs of urine (e.g. male versus female C57BL/6, male C57BL/6 versus male BALB/c) at a single dilution factor (1:100). This introduces two significant limitations: (1) the "generalist" versus "specialist" descriptors pertain only to the specific pairwise comparisons made and (2) there is no information about the sensitivity/concentration-dependence of the responses.

      Reviewer 3 points to two limitations of our VSN activity assay. He / she is correct to mention that characterizing a VSN as generalist or specialist based on a “pairwise comparison” should not be the basis of attributing such a “generalist” or “specialist” label in general (i.e., regarding the global stimulus space). We acknowledge this point, but we do not regard this as a limitation of our study since we are not investigating rather broad (i.e., multidimensional) questions of selectivity. All we are asking in the context of this study is whether VSNs - when being challenged with pairs of sex- or strain-specific urine samples - act as rather selective semiochemical detectors. Of course, one can always think of a study design that provides more information. However, we here opted for an assay that - in our hands - is robust, “low noise” (i.e., displays low intrinsic signal variability as evident form reliability index calculations), ensures recovery from VSN adaptation (Wong et al., 2018), and, importantly, answers the specific question we are asking.

      Regarding the second point (“there is no information about the sensitivity/concentrationdependence of the responses”), we would like to emphasize that this was not a focus of our study either. In fact, concentration-dependence of VSN activity has been a major focus of several previous studies referenced in our manuscript (e.g., Leinders-Zufall et al., 2000; He et al., 2008), albeit with contradictory results. In our study, we ask whether a pair of stimuli that we have shown to display, in part, strikingly different chemical composition (both absolute and relative) preferentially activates the same or different VSNs. With this question in mind, we believe that our assay (and its results) are highly informative.

      (2) The functional measurements of VSN tuning to various pairs of urine stimuli are consistently presented alongside mass spectrometry-based comparisons. Although it is clear from the manuscript text that the mass spectrometry-based analysis was separated from the VSN tuning experiments/analysis, the juxtaposition of VSN tuning measurements with independent molecular diversity measurements gives the appearance to readers that these experiments were integrated (i.e., that the diversity of ligands was underlying the diversity of physiological responses). This is a hypothesis raised by the parallel studies, not a supported conclusion of the work. This data presentation style risks confusing readers.

      As Reviewer 3 points out correctly “it is clear from the manuscript text that the mass spectrometry-based analysis was separated from the VSN tuning experiments/analysis.” In the figures, we try make the distinction between VSN response statistics and chemical profiling more obvious by gray shadows that link the plots depicting VSN response characteristics to the general pie charts.

      We now also made an extra effort to avoid “confusing readers” by stating in the Discussion (i) that “caution should thus be exerted to not attempt to fully explain VSN response specificity based on VOC and protein content alone”; (ii) that, for several sex- and/or strain-specific molecules, none “has previously been attributed a chemosensory function. Challenging the mouse VNO with purified recombinant protein(s) will help elucidate whether such functions exist”; (iii) that “generalist VSNs might sample information only from a select subset of urinary compounds, which, given their role as biologically relevant chemosignals, might be released at tightly controlled (and thus similar) concentrations”; and (iv) that “to some extent, different response profiles could be attributed to non-volatile small organic molecules such as steroids (Nodari et al., 2008), which were beyond the focus of our chemical analysis.” Moreover, we have deleted a sentence that read: “sex- and strain-specific chemical profiles give rise to unique VSN activity patterns”, and we have added the following statement: “In fact, in the most extreme scenario, several compounds that do display substantial strain- and/or sex-specific differences in concentration might not act as chemosignals at all.”

      However, we believe that there is value in presenting “VSN tuning measurements” next to “independent molecular diversity measurements.” While these are independent measurements, their similarity or, quite frequently, lack thereof are informative. We are sure that by taking the above “precautions” we have now mitigated the risk of “confusing readers.”

      (3) The impact of mass spectrometry findings is limited by the fact that none of these molecules (in bulk, fractions, or monomolecular candidate ligands) were tested on VSNs. It is possible that only a very small number of these ligands activate the VNO. The list of variably expressed proteins - especially several proteins that are preferentially found in female urine - is compelling, but, again, there is no evidence presented that indicates whether or not these candidate ligands drive VSN activity. It is noteworthy that the largest class of known natural ligands for VSNs are small nonvolatiles that are found at high levels in mouse urine. These molecules were almost certainly involved in driving VSN activity in the physiology assays (both "generalist" and "specialist"), but they are absent from the molecular analysis.

      Reviewer 3 is right, of course, that at this point we have not tested the identified molecules on VSNs. This is clearly beyond the scope of the present study. We believe that the data we present will be the basis of (several full-length) future studies that aim to identify specific ligands and - best case scenario - receptor-ligand pairs. We find it hard to concur that our study, which provides the necessary basis for those future endeavors, is regarded as “incomplete”. By design, all studies are somewhat incomplete, i.e., there are always remaining questions and we are not contesting that.

      It is true, of course, that a class of “known natural ligands for VSNs are small nonvolatiles.” As we replied above, our chemical profiling approach omits (sulfated) steroids. We are aware of this weakness. We deliberately decided to omit steroids as well as other non-volatile small organic molecules for three main reasons: (i) steroid composition has been the focus of analysis in several previous studies and there is ample published information available on their role as VSN stimuli; (ii) the analytical tools available to us do not allow comprehensive profiling of non-volatile small organic molecules; employing two-dimensional head-space GC-MS as well as LC-MS/MS is not suitable for steroid detection; and (iii) the relatively small sample volumes forced us to prioritize and focus on specific chemical classes (in our case, VOCs and proteins). We made an effort to use of the exact same stimuli as previously employed to investigate sensory representations in the accessory olfactory bulb (AOB) (Bansal et al., 2021), a fact that we consider a key strength of our current study. However, this entailed that we had to effectively split our samples, further reducing the available sample volume.

      We acknowledge that we did not sufficiently describe our rationale for focusing on VOCs and proteins on the previous version of the manuscript (nor did we discuss the known role of (sulfated) steroids in VSN signaling in adequate detail). We have now made an effort to address these shortcomings in the revised manuscript. Specifically, we have added new text to the Introduction (“Prominent molecularly identified VSN stimuli include various sulfated steroids (Celsi et al., 2012; Fu et al., 2015; Haga-Yamanaka et al., 2015, 2014; Isogai et al., 2011; Nodari et al., 2008; Turaga and Holy, 2012), which could reflect the dynamic endocrine state of an individual.”) and the Discussion (“Notably, our chemical profiling approach omits (sulfated) steroids other non-volatile small organic molecules, which have previously been identified in mouse urine as VSN stimuli (Nodari et al., 2008). Caution should thus be exerted to not attempt to fully explain VSN response specificity based on VOC and protein content alone.” & “In line with the notion of highly selective vomeronasal sampling is our observation that the concentration differences between compounds shared among strains, which are often substantial, are not reflected by similarly pronounced differences in response strength among generalist VSNs. There are several, not necessarily mutually exclusive explanations for this finding: First, concentration could simply not be a read-out parameter for VSNs, which would support previous ideas of concentration-invariant VSN activity (Leinders-Zufall et al., 2000). Second, the concentrations in freshly released urine could just exceed the dynamic tuning range of VSNs since, particularly for VOCs, natural signals (e.g., in scent marks) must be accessible to a recipient for a prolonged amount of time (sometimes days). A similar rationale could explain the increased protein concentrations in male urine, since male mice use scent marking to establish and maintain their territories and urinary lipocalins serve as long-lasting reservoirs of VOCs (Hurst et al., 1998). Third, generalist VSNs might sample information only from a select subset of urinary compounds, which, given their role as biologically relevant chemosignals, might be released at tightly controlled (and thus similar) concentrations. In fact, in the most extreme scenario, several compounds that do display substantial strain- and/or sex-specific differences in concentration might not act as chemosignals at all. Forth, to some extent, different response profiles could be attributed to non-volatile small organic molecules such as steroids (Nodari et al., 2008), which were beyond the focus of our chemical analysis.”).

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) I find that the study is highly valuable for researchers in this field. With the finding that wild mouse urines do not elicit significantly more variable responses from urines from inbred strains, researchers can now be reassured to use inbred strains to gain general insights on pheromone signaling.

      A major omission of this study is non-volatile small organic molecules such as steroids. These compounds are the only molecular class in urine that have been identified to stimulate specific vomeronasal receptors to date. It is unclear to me that the specificity of VOC and proteins can alone fully explain the response specificity of the VSNs that have been monitored in this study. The discussion of this topic is highly beneficial for the readers.

      Reviewer 1 is correct to point out that our chemical profiling approach omits (sulfated) steroids. We are aware of this weakness. We deliberately decided to omit steroids as well as other nonvolatile small organic molecules for three main reasons: (i) as the reviewer points out, (sulfated) steroid composition has been the focus of analysis in several previous studies and there is ample published information available on their role as VSN stimuli; (ii) the analytical tools available to us do not allow comprehensive profiling of non-volatile small organic molecules; employing two-dimensional head-space GC-MS as well as LC-MS/MS is not suitable for steroid detection; and (iii) the relatively small sample volumes forced us to prioritize and focus on specific chemical classes (in our case, VOCs and proteins). We made an effort to use of the exact same stimuli as previously employed to investigate sensory representations in the accessory olfactory bulb (AOB) (Bansal et al., 2021), a fact that we consider a key strength of our current study. However, this entailed that we had to effectively split our samples, further reducing the available sample volume.

      We acknowledge that we did not sufficiently describe our rationale for focusing on VOCs and proteins on the previous version of the manuscript (nor did we discuss the known role of (sulfated) steroids in VSN signaling in adequate detail). We have now made an effort to address these shortcomings in the revised manuscript. Specifically, we have added new text to the Introduction (“Prominent molecularly identified VSN stimuli include various sulfated steroids (Celsi et al., 2012; Fu et al., 2015; Haga-Yamanaka et al., 2015, 2014; Isogai et al., 2011; Nodari et al., 2008; Turaga and Holy, 2012), which could reflect the dynamic endocrine state of an individual.”) and the Discussion (“Notably, our chemical profiling approach omits (sulfated) steroids other non-volatile small organic molecules, which have previously been identified in mouse urine as VSN stimuli (Nodari et al., 2008). Caution should thus be exerted to not attempt to fully explain VSN response specificity based on VOC and protein content alone.” & “In line with the notion of highly selective vomeronasal sampling is our observation that the concentration differences between compounds shared among strains, which are often substantial, are not reflected by similarly pronounced differences in response strength among generalist VSNs. There are several, not necessarily mutually exclusive explanations for this finding: First, concentration could simply not be a read-out parameter for VSNs, which would support previous ideas of concentration-invariant VSN activity (Leinders-Zufall et al., 2000). Second, the concentrations in freshly released urine could just exceed the dynamic tuning range of VSNs since, particularly for VOCs, natural signals (e.g., in scent marks) must be accessible to a recipient for a prolonged amount of time (sometimes days). A similar rationale could explain the increased protein concentrations in male urine, since male mice use scent marking to establish and maintain their territories and urinary lipocalins serve as long-lasting reservoirs of VOCs (Hurst et al., 1998). Third, generalist VSNs might sample information only from a select subset of urinary compounds, which, given their role as biologically relevant chemosignals, might be released at tightly controlled (and thus similar) concentrations. Forth, to some extent, different response profiles could be attributed to non-volatile small organic molecules such as steroids (Nodari et al., 2008), which were beyond the focus of our chemical analysis.”).

      (2) How many different wild mouse urines were tested in this study? Is this sufficient to capture the diversity of wild M. musculus in local (Prague) habitats?

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. For the present study, 20 male (M) and 27 female (F) wild mice were caught at six different sites in the broader Prague area (i.e., Bohnice (50.13415N, 14.41421E; 2M+4F), Dolni Brezany (49.96321N, 14.4585E; 3M+4F), Hodkovice (49.97227N, 14.48039E; 5M+6F), Písnice (49.98988N, 14.46625E; 3M+6F), Lhota (49.95369N, 14.43087E; 1M+2F), and Zalepy (49.9532N, 14.40829E; 6M+5F). 18 of the 27 wild females were caught pregnant. The remaining 9 females were mated with males caught at the same site and produced offspring within a month. When selecting 10 male and 10 female individuals from first-generation offspring for urine collection, we ensured that all six capture sites were represented and that age-matched animals displayed similar weight (~17g). We believe that this capture / breeding strategy sufficiently represents “the diversity of wild M. musculus in local (Prague) habitats.” In the revised manuscript, we have now included these details in the Materials and Methods.

      (3) I found Figure 1e and figures in a similar format confusing - one panel describes the response statistics of VSNs, and other panels show the number of compounds found in different MS profiling, which is not immediately obvious from the figures. Is the y-axis legend correct (%)?

      We now try make the distinction between VSN “response statistics” and chemical profiling more obvious by gray shadows that link the plots depicting VSN response characteristics to the general pie charts. Moreover, we thank the Reviewer for pointing out the mislabeling of the y-axis. Accordingly, we have deleted “%” in all corresponding figures.

      (4) For Figure 5, in order to conclude that the same urine activates a different population of VSNs in two different strains, a critical control is needed to demonstrate that this is not due to the sampling variability - as compositions of V1Rs and V2Rs could vary between different slices, one preferred control is to use VNO slices from the same strain and compare the selectivity used here across the A-P axis.

      We thank Reviewer 1 for pointing this out. Importantly, we believe that this is already controlled for (see our response to the Public Review). In fact, for each experiment, we routinely prepare VNO slices along the entire anterior-to-posterior axis (not including the most anterior tip, where the VNO lumen tapers into the vomeronasal duct, and the most posterior part, the lumen ‘‘twists’’ toward the ventral aspect and its volume decreases (see Figs. 7 & S7 in Hamacher et al., 2024, Current Biology)). This usually yields ~7 slices per individual experiment / session. Therefore, we routinely sample and average across the entire VNO anterior-to-posterior axis for each experiment. In Fig. 5, individual independent experiments from each strain (C57BL/6 versus BALB/c) amounted to (a) n = 6 versus n = 8; (b) n = 10 versus n = 10; (c) n = 7 versus n = 9; (d) n = 9 versus n = 10; (e) n = 10 versus n = 9; and (f) n = 12 versus n = 10. Together, we can thus exclude that the considerably different response profiles that we measured using different recipient strains result from a “sampling error.”

      To clarify this point in the revised manuscript, we now explain our sampling routine in more detail in the Materials and Methods. Moreover, we now also mention this point in the Results.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Pg 5 Lines 3-16: This summary paragraph contains too much detail given that the reader has not read the paper yet, which makes it bewildering. This should be condensed.

      We agree and have substantially condensed this paragraph.

      (2) Pg 6 Line 5-8: This summary of the experimental design is obtuse and should be edited for clarity.

      We have edited the relevant passage for clarity.

      (3) Pg 6 Line 11: "VSNs were categorized..." Specialist vs generalist is defined as responding to one or both stimuli. This definition is placed right after saying that the cells were also tested with KCl. The reader might think that specialist vs generalist was defined in relation to KCl.

      We have edited this sentence, which now reads: “Dependent on their individual urine response profiles, VSNs were categorized as either specialists (selective response to one stimulus) or generalists (responsive to both stimuli).”

      (4) Pg 6 Line 13: "we recorded urine-dependent Ca2+ signals from a total of 16,715 VSNs". Is a "signal" a response? Did all 16,715 VSNs respond to urine? What was the total of KCl responsive cells recorded?

      We edited the corresponding passage for clarification. The text now reads: “Overall, we recorded >43,000 K+-sensitive neurons, of which a total of 16,715 VSNs (38.4%) responded to urine stimulation. Of these urine-sensitive neurons, 61.4% displayed generalist profiles, whereas 38.6% were categorized as specialists (Figure 1c,d).”

      (5) Pg 7 Line 6: The repeated use of the word "pooled" is confusing as it suggests a variation in the experiment. The authors should establish once in the Methods and maybe in the Results that stimuli were pooled across animals. Then they should just refer to the stimulus as male or female or BALB/c rather than "pooled" male etc.

      We acknowledge the reviewer’s argument. Accordingly, we now introduce the experimental use of pooled urine once in the Methods and in the introductory paragraph of the Results. All other references to “pooled” urine in the Results and Captions have been deleted.

      (6) Pg 7 Line 10: "...detected in >=3 out of 10 male..." For the chemical analysis, were these samples not pooled?

      Correct. We deliberately did not pool samples for chemical analysis, but instead analyzed all individual samples separately (i.e., 60 samples were subjected to both proteomic and metabolomic analyses). Thus, the criterion that a VOC or protein must be detected in at least 3 of the 10 individual samples from a given sex/strain combination for a ‘present’ call (and in at least 6 of the 10 samples to be called ‘enriched’) ensures that the molecular signatures we identify are not “contaminated” by unusual aberrations within single samples.<br /> For clarification, we now explicitly outline this procedure in the Methods (Experimental Design and Statistical Analysis – Proteomics and metabolomics).

      (7) Pg 7 Line 23: In line 7, the specialist rate was defined as 5% in reference to the total KCl responsive cells. Here the specialist rate is defined from responsive cells. This is confusing.

      We apologize for the confusion. In both cases, the numbers (%) refer to all K+-sensitive neurons. We have added this information to both relevant sentences (l. 7 as well as ll. 23-24). Note that the rate in ll. 23-24 refers to generalists.

      (8) Pg 7 Line 25: Concentration index should be defined before its use here.

      We have revised the corresponding sentence, which now reads: “By contrast, analogously calculated concentration indices (see Materials and Methods) that can reflect potential disparities are distributed more broadly and non-normally (Figure 1h).”

      (9) Pg 7 Line 29: change "trivially" to "simply".

      Done

      (10) Pg 7 Line 30: What is meant by a "generalist" ligand? The neurons are generalists. Probably should read "common ligands"

      We have changed the text accordingly.

      (11) Pg 7 Line 31: What is meant by "global observed concentration disparities" ?

      We have changed the text to “…represented by the observed general concentration disparities.”

      (12) Pg 8 Lines 7-11: This section needs to be edited for clarity as it is very difficult to follow. For example, the definition of "enriched" is buried in a parenthetical. Also, it is very difficult to figure out what a "sample" is in this paper. Is it a pooled stimulus, or is it urine from an individual animal?

      We apologize for the confusion. Throughout the paper a “sample” is a pooled stimulus (from all 10 individuals of a given sex/strain combination) for all physiological experiments. For chemical analysis a “sample” refers to urine from an individual animal.

      (13)Pg 8 Line 11: "abundant proteins" Does this mean absolute concentration or enriched in one sample vs another?

      We changed the term “abundant” to “enriched” as this descriptor has been defined (present in ≥6 of 10 individual samples) in the previous sentence.

      (14) Pg 8 Line 18: "While 32.9% of all..." Please edit for clarity. What is the point?

      The main point here is that, for VOCs, the vast majority of compounds (91.3%) are either generic mouse urinary molecules or are sex/strain-specific.

      (15) Pg 10 Line 18: "Increased VSN selectivity..." This title is misleading as it suggests a change in sensitivity with animal exposure. I think the authors are trying to say "VSNs are more selective for strain than for sex". The authors should avoid the term "exposure to" when they mean "stimulation with" as the former suggests chronic exposure prior to testing.

      We thank the reviewer for the advice and have changed the title accordingly. We also edited the text to avoid the term "exposure to" throughout the manuscript.

      (16) Pg 12 Line 10: "we recorded hardly any..." Hardly any in comparison to what? BALB/c?

      We apologize for the confusion. We have edited the text for clarity, which now reads: “In fact, (i) compared to an average specialist rate of 11.2% ± 6.6% (mean ± SD) calculated over all 13 binary stimulus pairs (n = 26 specialist types), we observed only few specialist responses upon stimulation with urine from wild females (2% and 3%, respectively), and…”

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Related to the pairwise stimulus-response experimental design and analysis: there is precedent in the field for studies that explore the same topic (sex- and strain-selectivity), but measure VSN sensitivity across many urine stimuli, not just two at a time. This has been done both in the VNO (He et al, Science, 2008; Fu, et al, Cell, 2015) and in the AOB (Tolokh, et al, Journal of Neuroscience, 2013). The current manuscript does not cite these studies.

      Reviewer 3 is correct and we apologize for this oversight. We now cite the two VSN-related studies by He et al. and Fu et al. in the Introduction.

      (2) The findings of the mass spectrometry-based profiling of mouse urine - especially for volatiles - is only accessible through repositories, making it difficult to for readers to understand which molecules were found to be highly divergent between sexes/strains. There is value in the list of ligands to further investigate, but this information should be made more accessible to readers without having to comb through the repositories.

      We agree that there “is value in the list of ligands to further investigate” and, accordingly, we now provide a table (Table 1) that lists the top-5 VOCs that – according to sPLS-DA – display the most discriminative power to classify samples by sex (related to Figure 2c) or strain (related to Figure 2d). For ease of identification, all entries list internal mass spectrometry identifiers, identifiers extracted from MS analysis database, the sex or strain that drives separation, which two-dimensional component / x-variate represents the most discriminative variable, PubChem chemical formula, PubChem common or alternative names, Chemical Entities of Biological Interest or PubChem Compound Identification, and the VOC’s putative origin.

      (3) There is a long precedent for integrating molecular assessments and physiological recordings to identify specific ligands for the vomeronasal system: - nonvolatiles (e.g., Leinders-Zufall, et al., Nature, 2000)

      • peptides (e.g., Kimoto et al., Nature, 2005; Leinders-Zufall et al. Science, 2004; Riviere et al., Nature, 2009; Liberles, et al., PNAS, 2009)
      • proteins (e.g., Chamero et al., Nature, 2007; Roberts et al., BMC Biology, 2010)

      • excreted steroids and bile acids (Nodari et al., Journal of Neuroscience, 2008; Fu et al., Cell, 2015; Doyle, et al., Nature Communications, 2016)

      The Leinders-Zufall (2000), Roberts, and Nodari papers are referenced, but the broader efforts by the community to find specific drivers of vomeronasal activity are not fully represented in the manuscript. The focus of this paper is fully related to this broader effort, and it would be appropriate for this work to be placed in this context in the introduction and discussion.

      We now refer to all of the studies mentioned in the Introduction (except the article published by Liberles et al. in 2009, since the authors of that study do not identify vomeronasal ligands).

      (4) Throughout the manuscript (starting in Fig. 1h) the figure panels and captions use the term "response index" whereas the methods define a "preference index." It seems to be the case that these two terms are synonymous. If so, a single term should be consistently used. If not, this needs to be clarified.

      We now consistently use the term “response index” throughout the manuscript.

      (5) It would be useful to provide a table associated with Figure 2 - figure supplement 1 that lists the common names and/or chemical formulas for the volatiles that were found to be of high importance.

      We agree and, accordingly, we now provide a table (Table 2) that lists VOC, which – according to Random Forest classification and resulting Gini importance scores – display the most discriminative power to classify samples by sex (related to Figure 2 - figure supplement 1a) or strain (related to Figure 2 - figure supplement 1b). Notably, it is generally reassuring that several VOCs are listed in both Table 1 and Table 2, emphasizing that two different supervised machine learning algorithms (i.e., sPLS-DA (Table 1) and Random Forest (Table 2)) yield largely congruent results.

      (5) The use of the term "comprehensive" for the molecular analysis is a little bit misleading, as volatiles and proteins are just two of the many categories of molecules present in mouse urine.

      We have now deleted most mentions of the term "comprehensive" when referring to the molecular analysis.

      (7) Page 11, lines 24-27: The sentences starting "We conclude..." and ending in "semiochemical concentrations." These two sentences do not make sense. It is not known how many of the identified proteins are actual VSN ligands. Moreover, there is abundant evidence from other studies that individual VSN activity provides information about distinct semiochemical concentrations.

      We have substantially edited and rephrased this paragraph to better reflect that different scenarios / interpretations are possible. The relevant text now reads: “We conclude that VSN population response strength might not be so strongly affected by strain-dependent concentration differences among common urinary proteins. In that case, it would appear somewhat unlikely that individual VSN activity provides fine-tuned information about distinct semiochemical concentrations. Alternatively, as some (or even many) of the identified proteins could not serve as vomeronasal ligands at all, generalist VSNs might sample information from only a subset of compounds which, in fact, are secreted at roughly similar concentrations.”

      (8) The explanation of stimulus timing is mentioned several times but not defined clearly in methods. Page 19, lines 14-19 have information about the stimulus delivery device, but it would be helpful to have stimulus timing explicitly stated.

      In addition to the relevant captions, we now explicitly state stimulus timing (i.e., 10 s stimulations at 180 s inter-stimulus intervals) in the Results.

      (9) Typos: Page 10, line 7: "male biased" → "male-biased" for clarity

      Wilcoxon "signed-rank" test is often misspelled "Wilcoxon singed ranked test" or "Wilcoxon signed ranked test"

      In the Fig. 3 legend, the asterisk meaning is unspecified.

      "(im)balances" → imbalances (page 27, line 24; page 37, line 16; page 38, line 16)

      Figure 2 - figure supplement 1 and in Figure 2 - figure supplement 2, in the box-andwhisker plots the units are not specified in the graph or legend.”

      We have made all required corrections.

    1. Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this paper, the authors sought to evaluate whether the novel TB drug candidate, spectinamide 1599 (S), given via inhalation to mouse TB models, and combined with the drugs B (bedaquiline) and Pa (pretomanid), would demonstrate similar efficacy to that of BPaL regimen (where L is linezolid). Because L is associated with adverse events when given to patients long-term, and one of those is associated with myelosuppression (bone marrow toxicity) the authors also sought to assess blood parameters, effects on bone marrow, immune parameters/cell effects following treatment of mice with BPaS and BPaL. They conclude that BPaL and BPaS have equivalent efficacy in both TB models used and that BPaL resulted in weight loss and anemia (whereas BPaL did not) under the conditions tested, as well as effects on bone marrow.

      Strengths:

      The authors used two mouse models of TB that are representative of different aspects of TB in patients (which they describe well), intending to present a fuller picture of the activity of the tested drug combinations. They conducted a large body of work in these infected mice to evaluate efficacy and also to survey a wide range of parameters that could inform the effect of the treatments on bone marrow and on the immune system. The inclusion of BPa controls (in most studies) and also untreated groups led to a large amount of useful data that has been collected for the mouse models per se (untreated) as well as for BPa - in addition to the BPaS and BPaL combinations which are of particular interest to the authors. Many of these findings related to BPa, BPaL, untreated groups, etc corroborate earlier findings and the authors point this out effectively and clearly in their manuscript. To go further, in general, it is a well-written and cited article with an informative introduction.

      Weaknesses:

      The authors performed a large amount of work with the drugs given at the doses and dosing intervals started, but at present, there is no exposure data available in the paper. It would be of great value to understand the exposures achieved in plasma at least (and in the lung if more relevant for S) in order to better understand how these relate to clinical exposures that are observed at marketed doses for B, Pa, and L as well as to understand the exposure achieved at the doses being evaluated for S. If available as historical data this could be included/cited. Considering the great attempts made to evaluate parameters that are relevant to clinical adverse events, it would add value to understand what exposures of drug effects such as anemia, weight loss, and bone marrow effects, are being observed.

      It would also be of value to add an assessment of whether the weight loss, anemia, or bone marrow effects observed for BPaL are considered adverse, and the extent to which we can translate these effects from mouse to patient (i.e. what are the limitations of these assessments made in a mouse study?). For example, is the small weight loss seen as significant, or is it reversible? Is the magnitude of the changes in blood parameters similar to the parameters seen in patients given L?

      In addition, it is always challenging to interpret findings for combinations of drugs, so the addition of language to explain this would add value: for example, how confident can we be that the weight loss seen for only the BPaL group is due to L as opposed to a PK interaction leading to an elevated exposure and weight loss due to B or Pa?

      Turning to the evaluations of activity in mouse TB models, unfortunately, the evaluations of activity in the BALB/c mouse model as well as the spleens of the Kramnik model resulted in CFU below/at the limit of detection and so, to this reviewer's understanding of the data, comparisons between BPaL and BPaS cannot be made and so the conclusion of equivalent efficacy in BALB/c is not supported with the data shown. There is no BPa control in the BALB/c study, therefore it is not possible to discern whether L or S contributed to the activity of BPaL or BPaS; it is possible that BPa would have shown the same efficacy as the 3 drug combinations. It would be valuable to conduct a study including a BPa control and with a shorter treatment time to allow comparison of BPa, BPaS, and BPaL. In the Kramnik lungs, as the authors rightly note, the studies do not support any contribution of S or L to BPa - i.e. the activity observed for BPa, BPaL, and BPaS did not significantly differ. Although the conclusions note equivalency of BPaL and BPaS, which is correct, it would be helpful to also include BPa in this statement; it would be useful to conduct a study dosing for a longer period of time or assessing a relapse endpoint, where it is possible that a contribution of L and/or S may be seen - thus making a stronger argument for S contributing an equivalent efficacy to L. The same is true for the assessment of lesions - unfortunately, there was no BPa control meaning that even where equivalency is seen for BPaL and BPaS, the reader is unable to deduce whether L or S made a contribution to this activity.

    1. Note: This response was posted by the corresponding author to Review Commons. The content has not been altered except for formatting.

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      Reply to the reviewers

      1. General Statements__: The manuscript entitled "__Dual antiviral mechanisms of Herbacetin and Caffeic acid phenethyl ester against Chikungunya and Dengue viruses with insights into Dengue methyltransferase-CAPE crystal structure" is the first report of broad spectrum alphavirus and flavivirus inhibitors with dual roles that efficiently inhibit virus replication by diminishing the levels of polyamines in the host cells as well as inhibit the enzymatic activity of the virus-specific methyltransferase (MTases). Chikungunya virus (CHIKV) and Dengue virus (DENV) are re-emerging alpha- and flaviviruses respectively. Until now, no antivirals are commercially available to combat these two viral infections. This study delves into the antiviral mechanisms of Herbacetin (HC) and Caffeic acid phenethyl ester (CAPE) against DENV and CHIKV. Treatment of Vero cells with these compounds resulted in polyamine depletion. However, adding exogenous polyamines did not completely rescue the virus, suggesting alternative antiviral mechanisms. Interestingly, these compounds exhibited anti-MTase activity against purified viral MTases of CHIKV and DENV. The crystal structure of the DENV 3 MTase in complex with CAPE revealed its binding site within the GTP-binding region of DENV MTase. This study presents the novel dual inhibition mechanism of HC and CAPE, offering promising prospects for developing broad-spectrum antivirals.

      2. Point-by-point description of the revisions

      We express our gratitude to the reviewers for their time and insightful comments, which have significantly contributed to the improvement of the manuscript. We believe that the thoughtful critiques and suggestions have significantly enhanced the overall quality of our work. Below, we provide a point-by-point response to each comment, addressing the concerns raised by the reviewers.

      Reviewer 1: -

      Comment 1: My main concern is that the depletion of polyamines is likely to have broad implications for host cell metabolism. Polyamines are critical for genome folding and stability. Hence, polyamine depletion will likely compromise cellular metabolic homeostasis. My suggestion is to perform a literature survey on this topic, identify appropriate assays of cellular homeostasis, and add at least one such assay in the relevant HC and CAPE concentration range to address my question..

      I also suggest adding the potential negative effects of polyamine depletion on host cell metabolism in the discussion section

      • Response: We appreciate the reviewer's constructive feedback for their insightful remarks on the potential extensive influence of polyamine depletion on host cell metabolism. We acknowledge the critical role polyamines play in genome folding and stability, and their depletion could indeed disrupt cellular homeostasis. In response to this valuable feedback, we conducted a comprehensive literature review. This literature review uncovered studies investigating the targeting of the polyamine biosynthetic pathway as a potential therapeutic strategy for combating various infections and diseases. Additionally, DFMO , a drug that targets polyamine biosynthetic pathway enzyme is an FDA-approved drug for African sleeping sickness and high-risk neuroblastoma (Bouteille & Dumas, 2003; Nazir et al., 2024) indicating that despite the critical role of polyamines in cellular metabolic homeostasis, the host polyamine pathway can also be successfully targeted for antiviral drug discovery. As recommended, we have added this information in the revised manuscript. * Additionally, ribavirin, an FDA-approved antiviral agent, employs various mechanisms to inhibit viral replication, including the reduction of polyamine levels (Tate et al., 2019). Furthermore, we have also examined the protocols available in the literature for CAPE, HC, and DFMO treatment. Most of these studies have employed MTT assay, as illustrated in the research conducted by Arisan et al. 2012 and Shen et al. 2013 (Arisan et al., 2012; Shen et al., 2013). Notably, Aljabr et al.,2016 also employed the MTT assay for viability testing, underscoring its relevance (Aljabr et al., 2016). Similarly, our manuscript employed the MTT assay at various compound concentrations to ensure the utilization of non-cytotoxic concentrations for antiviral activity testing. *

      As per reviewer's recommendation, we have discussed the potential adverse effects of polyamine depletion on cellular processes in the revised manuscript's discussion section.

      *Line no.s 513 – 523 of the revised manuscript have the revised text as per the suggestion. *

      Reviewer 2:-

      Comment 1:- Authors describe anti-CHIKV and anti-DENV activities of herbacetin and caffeic acid phenyl ester (CAPE). The antiviral effect is not reversed buy exogenous polyamines suggesting multiple mechanisms of action. NS5-Met complex with caffeic acid phenyl ester was obtained and its structure resolved at high resolution. The resolved structure reveals two binding sites for antiviral compound overlapping with that of GTP and possibly with a site involved in binding of RNA

      Other than analysis of crystal structure of NS5/CAPE complex the provided data is of low quality and is not analyzed properly. There is no evidence that data is reproducible. Authors have calculated significance from "experimental repeats" which, based on the description of experiments, are not independent experiments but technical replicates. Some key technical details are missing and some experiments are not described at all. The writing can be vastly improved and figures be made a lot more easier to understand.

      • *Response :-We appreciate the reviewer's positive feedback of on the crystal structure and as pointed out towards data quality and analysis, we have tried and made significant improvements, including enhancing data representation and providing detailed protocols in the supplementary materials where necessary. Additionally, we have addressed key technical details that were previously missing and ensured that all experiments are described adequately. We acknowledge the need for clearer writing and have now mentioned clearly that independent experiments have been carried out in the study. We have made suggested revisions to the revised manuscript. *

        Comment 2:- Bad writing lines 64-65 . Viral genomes lack protein synthesis machinery. Basically correct but no genome has protein synthesis machinery

      • Response:-We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. We have modified the text as follows: lines 64-65 "Viral genomes lack protein synthesis machinery, and the ability to hijack the host cell's resources for replication is crucial for all viruses". to lines 65-67 "Viral particles lack essential protein synthesis machinery. Consequently, viruses rely on the host cell's resources to replicate effectively."

        Comment 3:- line 137 flavonoids play a role in reducing the levels of nsP1 in CHIKV - what can this possibly mean? Are shown to reduce the level of nsP1 in CHIKV-infected cells?

      • Response: We appreciate the reviewer for bringing this to our attention, and we acknowledge that it was due to a writing issue in English. This has now been rectified. A dose-dependent reduction of the CHIKV E2, nsP1, and nsP3 proteins was observed upon treatment with baicalein and fisetin. This finding would suggest that baicalein and fisetin might inhibit the production of CHIKV protein, especially the proteins involved in the negative-strand synthesis and part of the replicase unit (Lani et al., 2016). To account for this suggestion, we have modified the text in the revised manuscript to (line 145-147): " Moreover, flavonoids treatment has demonstrated the dose-dependent decrease in CHIKV titer due to reduced levels of CHIKV viral proteins, including nsP1*. *

      __Comment 4 :-__line 250-251 - RNA was isolated from the infected cells' supernatant, used for cloning, and inserted between the NheI and XhoI restriction sites... …..It should be impossible as one cannot insert RNA into bacterial plasmid DNA.

      • Response:- We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. line 250-251 – "RNA was isolated from the infected cells' supernatant……..". This has been changed to line 267-271 " RNA was isolated from the supernatant of the cells infected with DENV 3, and used for cDNA preparation, cloning of the MTase gene fragment into the pET28c (+) vector using NheI and XhoI restriction sites."

        __Comment 5 :-__Missing parts. Examples

      the source of nsP1 of CHIKV is not indicated, True, there are references to previous studies, but this is extremely important point and it should have been clearly stated that it was obtained from E. coli. The issue is that authors made some predictions and modelling based on structure of nsP1 from eukaryotic expression system. It is not known does the enzyme purified from bacteria have similar structure (actually, in cited Nature paper - doi: 10.1038/s41586-020-3036-8 - attempts to purify nsP1 from bacteria were made. The protein was monomeric and had no activity)

      • Response:- We thank the reviewer for the comments. In response to the reviewer's concern regarding the source of the nsP1 protein from CHIKV, we would like to clarify that the recombinant protein was expressed and purified from E. coli Rossetta cells in our laboratory. We acknowledge the importance of this point and apologize for any oversight in not explicitly stating it in the manuscript. In response to the reviewer's suggestion, we have incorporated a detailed expression and purification protocol into the manuscript supplementary methodology (line number 1068-1091).
      • Response:- Alphaviruses share a high degree of sequence similarity (>80%), particularly within the nsP1 protein, with conserved active site residues (Supplementary Figure 2). Several studies investigating nsP1 proteins from alphaviruses, including Sindbis virus, Semliki Forest virus, and Venezuelan equine encephalitis virus, have successfully employed E. coli Rosetta cells for protein expression, followed by enzyme activity assays (Abdelnabi et al., 2020; Li et al., 2015; Tomar et al., 2011). Our laboratory is working on this protein for more than a decade and have conducted extensive assays on the activity of nsP1 protein purified from bacterial expression system. Our results are reproducible. These studies have been published in reputed peer reviewed research articles, including (Kaur et al., 2018; Mudgal et al., 2020). Additionally, similar assays have been demonstrated in the study by Bullard-Feibelman et al., 2016. We trust that this clarification resolves the reviewer's concern, and we are delighted to address any further inquiries.

        Comment 6:- Figure lacks quality (and figure legends are unclear) Examples:

      • it is impossible to understand what exactly is shown in Figure 1J

      • important information is missing, for example, it is not clear what were concentrations of antiviral compounds for panels 1F and 1I

      • Response :- We thank the reviewer for the constructive comments that has helped us to improve the revised manuscript. We have revised Figure 1J and as suggested we have updated the legends accordingly. Similar revisions have been made in the revised manuscript to the TLC protocol and results to ensure clarity. We thank the reviwer for pointing out the missing information regarding the concentrations of the antiviral compounds used in panels 1F and 1I. As per your suggestion, we added the antiviral compounds concentrations for these experiments in figure legends.

      Comment 7:- 4. wrong data - line 478 it is stated that there is no vaccine for DENV or CHIKV. It is correct, DENV vaccine has been in use for several years and CHIKV vaccine was approved at 2023 - line 476 refers to family alphaviridae. This does not exist, family is Togaviridae

      • Response:- We appreciate the reviewer for bringing this to our attention. We have accordingly revised the sentences for accuracy. "Although human viruses belong to several viral families, Alphaviridae and Flaviviridae are the most significant burden on public health" changed to line number 505-506 "Although human viruses belong to several viral families, Togaviridae and Flaviviridae impose one of the most significant burdens on public health"
      • *

      Line no.. 478 “ Neither commercially available drugs nor vaccines are available for these viruses.” Changed to line number 508 to 509 “Although FDA-approved vaccines for Dengue and Chikungunya viruses are available, no antiviral therapies have been approved against these viral infections.”

      Comment 8: ____5. unjustified conclusions. Example

      • authors have analyzed sequences of nsP1 of alphaviruses and made conclusions regarding conservation of active site. It is probably correct but the analyzed viruses do not represent all diversity of alphaviruses, insect specific members and aquatic alphaviruses should also be analyzed (same problem with analysis performed for flaviviruses)
      • Response:-Following the reviewer's recommendation, we have included Salmonid alphavirus, an aquatic virus, and Eilat virus, an insect-specific virus, in our comparison along with other human-infecting alphaviruses. Additionally, for flaviviruses, we have incorporated Palm Creek virus, an insect-specific virus, and Wenzhou shark flavivirus, an aquatic virus. As suggested, the relevant modifications have been done to the MSA protocol, results, and figure legends.

        Comment 9:- 6. Insufficient analysis of data. In some cases, there is a significant discrepancy between the results of different assays. For example, CAPE inhibits DENV at 2.5 microM (Fig 1H) but in test tube assay only small inhibition was observed even at 1000 microM. Authors should provide plausible explanation for this and similar discrepancies.

      (CE and ELISA-based assays shown on figure 6 also resulted in drastically different inhibitions). It is expected assays would produce different results but there should also be explanation for this. If this is not provided one can assume that it is due to experimental errors.

      • Response:- We thank the reviewers for their valuable comments. We acknowledge the importance of providing plausible explanations for such variations and are committed to addressing these concerns in our revised analysis. * Our explanation: Capillary electrophoresis (CE) offers a direct approach for detecting S-adenosylhomocysteine (SAH), the product of the methyltransferase reaction. However, this assay has a limitation in sensitivity, it is only able to detect SAH concentrations above ~ 300 µM. A previously validated CE-based assay for Chikungunya virus (CHIKV) nsP1 by Mudgal et al.,2020 addresses this limitation. Their work demonstrates that using specific concentrations of S-adenosylmethionine (SAM) at 0.3 mM and guanosine triphosphate (GTP) at 4 mM enables reliable detection of SAH in the reaction. However, *CAPE is observed to inhibit DENV at ~2.5 micro, supporting that viral inhibition not only is due to MTase inhibition but through other mechanism i.e. host cells polyamine depletion.

      • *

      • Therefore, this presents one plausible explanation, although we cannot currently dismiss the possibility of other mechanisms that could also contribute to viral inhibition by CAPE.*

      The established ELISA assay of nsP1 utilizes an indirect detection method, which exhibits higher sensitivity. Additionally, previously published studies on alphaviral nsP1 inhibitors also report nsP1 enzyme activity inhibition by compounds at concentrations several folds higher than their respective active doses in cell culture-based studies (Delang et al., 2016; Mudgal et al., 2020; Kovacikova et al., 2020).Therefore, differing substrate concentrations and CE-based assay limitations may be attributed to discrepancies between the capillary electrophoresis (CE) and ELISA assays. Numerous studies have utilized the CE-based assay or equivalent assays based on similar principles as qualitative tools for evaluating enzyme activity.

      In the revised manuscript, Figures 6B and 6C graphical representation has been transitioned from a dose-response curve IC50 format to a bar chart for enhanced clarity. This bar chart effectively conveys the key finding of a dose-dependent decrease in activity observed for both HC and CAPE.

      Similarly, we again tried to reoptimize the MTase CE-based assay by reducing the GTP concentration in enzyme reaction from 4 mM to 0.3 mM. This modification resulted in slight improvement and shows clear (~50%) decrease in enzyme activity at the highest concentration, as shown in Fig. 6 F and G. Furthermore, our approach with CE based assay is centered around detecting inhibition rather than conducting quantitative analyses.

      • *

      The discrepancy in the in vitro vs the enzyme test tube assay could be attributed to HC and CAPE's multifaceted mechanism of action when used in vitro (i.e polyamine depletion and anti methyltransferase activity). However, only methyltransferase inhibition has been assessed in enzymatic assay. Following the reviewer's suggestion, we have revised the methyltransferase assay protocol, results, and figure legends for clarifications. Additionally, the results have been appropriately discussed in the discussion section.

      • *

      Comment 10 :-6. Discussion is essentially missing, it is just list of statements mostly repeating what was said in other sections

      > Response: We appreciate the reviewer's suggestion regarding the discussion section; we have incorporated a comprehensive discussion in the revised manuscript.

      3rd reviewer :-

      The manuscript submitted by Bhutkar M. et al. details the antiviral properties of two compounds, herbacetin (HC) and caffeic acid phenethyl ester (CAPE), against Chikungunya virus (CHIKV) and Dengue virus (DENV) through cellular, bioinformatics, biochemical, biophysical, and structural studies. The authors propose a dual antiviral mechanism of action exhibited by these compounds, beginning with an evaluation of their cytotoxicity. Subsequent assessments of their antiviral efficacy against CHIKV and DENV are addressed using plaque reduction assay and other orthogonal assays such as qRT-PCR, and Immunofluorescence assay (IFA). Further, authors performed thin layer chromatography (TLC) to monitor polyamine levels in the cells treated with these compounds and concluded that these compounds leads to polyamine depletion which is also supported by previous studies. These experiments included DFMO as a control which is well established for its role in this regulation. Beyond their impact on cellular polyamine levels, the authors propose a role for these compounds in the inhibition of MTase domains in CHIKV and DENV, supported by the crystal structure of the DENV-3 NS5 MTase domain in complex with CAPE.

      Comment 1:-

      __Major points:- __ While the manuscript presents promising findings regarding the dual antiviral effects of the tested compounds, the authors fall short of demonstrating direct inhibition of MTase activity as a meaningful and complementary effect to polyamine depletion. Being only indirect, the enzyme inhibition data is not convincing, and the measured indirect inhibition is not precise enough in the case of CHIK nsp1 and too weak in the case of DENV NS5 (detailed below).

      Conceptually, the organization of the results should be changed to first data (structural data of DENV MTase in complex with CAPE, which is a significant achievement), then interpretation/discussion with modeling, and not the other way around.

      The discussion section requires more elaborate scientific justification than simply re-reporting the results.

      • Response:- We express our gratitude to the reviewers for their time and insightful comments, which have significantly contributed to in the improvement of our manuscript. We believe that the thoughtful critiques and suggestions have substantially improved the overall quality of our work. The changes made in the revised manuscript are highlighted in red. Below, we provide a point-by-point response to each comment, addressing the concerns raised by the reviewers.

        Comment 2:-

      It would be best to organize the ms as follows: - Crystal structure of DENV MTase in complex with CAPE - Building of a model of nsp1 by superimposition with NS5 MTase - Modeling compound binding - Inhibition assays using enzyme assays at least in the case of NS5 MTase. The direct enzyme assays are well described in the literature.

      • Response :- We appreciate the reviewer's suggestion regarding the manuscript organization. We understand the value of presenting the data in a logical flow. For this study, our initial investigations focused on the polyamine depletion ability of HC and CAPE, followed by antiviral activity assays. Based on the preliminary data from cell-based polyamine depletion assay and antiviral assays, the identified molecules were used for in silico investigations, followed by biochemical and biophysical validation. the crystal structure studies were performed to gain a deeper understanding of the inhibition mechanism. Therefore, we believe this flow, approach and the current structure have merit and is request to be considered.

        Comment 3:- Inhibition assays using enzyme assays at least in the case of NS5 MTase. The direct enzyme assays are well described in the literature.

      • If there is no inhibition, then discussion about possible reasons would be interesting and help the AV field. For example, CAPE could bind to other enzyme or sites, etc...

      Figure 5 is problematic.

      • When presenting an y IC50 data, care should be taken that the IC50 inflexion point is preceded and followed by at least two experimental points, which is not the case. The IC50 value of 7.082 and 5.156 µM are too imprecise (and there is no need to give digits after the value). Please add more low concentration experimental points.

      • Panel F and G: A reduction of 25 % at the highest inhibitor concentration is a strong indication that there is no effect.

      • Response:- We sincerely thank the reviewers for their valuable comments and insights regarding the discrepancies observed in our data. We acknowledge the importance of providing plausible explanations for such variations and are committed to addressing these concerns in our revised analysis. * Capillary electrophoresis (CE) offers a direct approach for detecting S-adenosylhomocysteine (SAH), the product of the methyltransferase reaction. However, this assay has a limitation in sensitivity, typically only detecting SAH concentrations exceeding ~300 µM. *

      *A previously validated CE-based assay for Chikungunya virus (CHIKV) nsp1 by Rajat et al. addresses this limitation and has been mentioned in the revised manuscript with the reference. Their work demonstrates that using specific concentrations of S-adenosylmethionine (SAM) at 0.3 mM and guanosine triphosphate (GTP) at 4 mM enables reliable detection of SAH in the reaction. The established ELISA assay utilizes an indirect detection method and exhibits higher sensitivity. Also, previous studies on alphaviral nsP1 inhibitors have also reported nsP1 enzyme activity inhibition by compounds at concentrations several folds higher than their respective active doses in cell culture-based studies (Delang et al., 2016; Mudgal et al., 2020; Kovacikova et al., 2020). *

      Hence, differing substrate concentrations may be attributed to discrepancies between the capillary electrophoresis (CE) and ELISA assays. Numerous studies have utilized the CE-based assay or equivalent assays based on similar principles as qualitative tools for evaluating enzyme activity.

      • *In response to the reviewer's suggestion to test compounds at lower dilutions, we acknowledge that we are currently unable to perform an assay for lower dilutions as recommended due to time constraints and limited availability (screen shot below) of "MABE419 Sigma-Aldrich (Merk), Anti-m3G-cap, m7G-cap Antibody, clone H-20 antibody" used as the primary antibody (Kaur et al., 2018). Our attempts to procure this antibody from Sigma were unsuccessful.For India it shows limted availability and the vendor has given the estimated shipment time of more than 7 weeks. As per reviewers suggestion and the current limitations in the IC50 data, we have revised the graphical representation from a non-linear regression format (which estimates IC50) to a bar chart format. In the revised manuscript, Figures 6B and 6C graphical representation has been transitioned from a dose-response IC50 format to a bar chart for clarity. This bar chart effectively conveys the key finding of inhibitory activity observed for both HC and CAPE.

      We tried to reoptimize the Dengue virus MTase CE-based assay by reducing the GTP concentration from 4 mM to 0.3 mM. This modification resulted in slight improvement and shows clear (~50%) decrease in enzyme activity at the highest concentration, as shown in Fig. 6 F and G. The CE-based assay for HC and CAPE data clearly indicates inhibition above >50%. Our approach with this assay is centered around detecting inhibition rather than conducting quantitative analyses. Following the reviewer's suggestion, we have revised the methyltransferase assay protocol, results, and figure legends. Additionally, the results have been appropriately discussed in the discussion section.

      Comment 4- Please describe more panel D in the legend.

      • Response :-We sincerely appreciate your suggestion and wish to express our gratitude. We have revised figure legend 6 D from. Line no. 791 "The CE based HC and CAPE Methyltransferase inhibition activity assay CHIKV nsP1" changed to line no. 884 to 886 "CE-based nsP1 MTase activity inhibition assay as described previously by Mudgal et al. 2020". HC and CAPE compounds were tested at a concentration of 200 µM and CAPE 1000 µM respectively.

        Minor Points/Comments/ Suggestions:

      Comment 1:-

      In the Introduction section, line 58: Are DENV infection numbers representative of worldwide distribution, please clarify. Also, in the case of CHIKV infection, the most affected countries are mentioned, why not follow the same pattern for DENV, please consider homogenizing the text.

      Response:- Thank you for your suggestion; we have revised the text accordingly. Line no. 58 "It is estimated that ~100-400 million DENV infections occur annually" changed to line no. 58 to 61 "It is estimated that annually ~100-400 million DENV infections occur worldwide. The Philippines and Vietnam are among the most affected countries. Moreover, dengue is endemic in India, Indonesia, Myanmar, Sri Lanka, and Thailand (Bhatt et al., 2013; Lobo et al., 2011, National Center for Vector Borne Diseases Control Report 2022 (NCVBDC)."

      __Comment 2:- __B. Before p. 4 (line 91), alphaviruses were not introduced. Please consider introducing them.

      Response :- Thank you for your feedback; brief introduction of alphaviruses have been added.

        • 4 (line 92) Alphaviruses belonging to the Togaviridae family include viruses such as Chikungunya, Eastern equine encephalitis, Venezuelan equine encephalitis, etc.*
      1. *

      Comment 3:- C. Consider introducing Dengue serotypes to help readers understand the significance of DENV-2 and DENV-3.

      Additionally, ensure uniformity by referring to these serotypes as DENV-2, DENV-3 throughout. There are inconsistencies in the current text, such as 'DENV 3' in lines 39 and 152, and 'DENV3' in lines 249 and 250, among others.

      • Response:-Thank you for your valuable input. Dengue serotypes have been introduced, and we have meticulously reviewed and rectified all inconsistencies regarding their nomenclature. Line no. 120 to 123 "Flaviviruses are classified within the Flaviviridae family and encompass viruses like Dengue, Zika, Japanese encephalitis, etc. Dengue virus consists of four distinct antigenic types: DENV 1, DENV 2, DENV 3, and DENV 4. DENV 2 has been India's most prevalent serotype for the past 50 years, however serotypes 3 and 4 have also appeared in some recent epidemics (Kalita et al., 2021)."

        Comment 4:- D. P. 4, 5 lines 91-134: Consider rephrasing/reorganizing the methylation process: conventional and unconventional. The current introduction doesn't clearly indicate the difference between the cap-0 capping in alphaviruses and cap-1 in flaviviruses.

      • Response:-Line 100 changed from "Cellular enzyme capping mechanisms usually involve the methylation of guanosine triphosphate (GTP) after transferring it to the 5' end of the RNA. However, the molecular mechanism of viral mRNA capping in alphaviruses is distinct." To line no. 102 to 108 "Cellular enzymes use conventional capping mechanisms, usually where GTP is first transferred to RNA's 5' end, followed by its methylation. On the other hand, viral capping in the case of alphaviruses is unconventional, where GTP is first methylated, followed by the guanyltion of viral RNAs. Furthermore, Cap 0 alphaviruses feature monomethylation at the N7 position of the guanosine nucleotide, while Cap 1 in flaviviruses has additional methylation at both the N7 and 2'O positions."

        Comment 5:-

      • Please consider citing the article instead of the referred link, wherever possible, for e.g., for ref. 22 PMID: 28218572 (a more recent reference for Flaviviridae taxonomy available than that mentioned in the current manuscript.)

      • Response :- We have addressed the reviewer's insightful suggestion regarding the citation and included the references accordingly.

        Comment 6:- F. Homogenize the writing of taxonomic names (viral families) in the text. For example, in line 126 change Flaviviridae to Flaviviridae, and line 476 (Discussion section), alphaviridae to Alphaviridae, flaviviridae to Flaviviridae and so on. For further clarification on addressing this, one can also refer to https://ictv.global/faq/names.

      • Response :-We sincerely appreciate the reviewer's input. We have incorporated the suggested changes as follows : In line 126, we changed "Flaviviridae" to "Flaviviridae".

      In line 476 (Discussion section), we corrected "alphaviridae" to "Togaviridae".

      We ensured consistency in the formatting of taxonomic names throughout the manuscript.

      Comment 7:-

      1. Please make sure to appropriately reference the corresponding supplementary information (text or figures) in the main text wherever necessary to avoid the impression of missing information. For instance, in none of the sub-sections of Materials and Methods (M&M), it is being indicated to refer to the suppl. experimental procedures for more details. Also consider not repeating the same information between the main experimental procedures text and the supplementary text.
      • Response :-The reviewer's feedback has been invaluable, and we've acted upon it accordingly. In response to the suggestion, we've made it clear in the manuscript to refer to the supplementary experimental procedures for detailed protocols where appropriate. Additionally, we've listed certain protocols exclusively in the supplementary material to enhance clarity and avoid repetition.

        Comment 8:-

      • M&M sub-section. 2, line 163: Which specific culture media is being referred to here? Could you provide additional details? On line 164, it mentions that polyamines were diluted in water. Is this water sterile tissue culture-grade water as indicated in line 161?

      • Response :-We appreciate the reviewer's attention to detail. At the time of usage, further dilutions were prepared in 2% DMEM media. Additionally, individual polyamines (putrescine, spermidine, and spermine) stocks were diluted in sterile tissue culture-grade water from Alfa-Aeser, USA, and used as indicated. As such, we have revised the sentence to enhance clarity. Line number 173 to 175 "At the time of usage, further dilutions were prepared in culture media. Similarly, individual polyamines (put, spm, and spd) (Alfa-Aeser, USA) stocks were diluted in water and used as designated." changed to this "At the time of usage, further dilutions were prepared in 2 % DMEM media. Similarly, individual polyamines (put, spm, and spd) (Alfa-Aeser, USA) stocks were diluted in sterile tissue culture grade water and used as designated."

      • *

      Comment 9:-

      1. M&M, line 274: What is CE? Please expand the term before using the abbreviation.

      2. Response :- Thank you for bringing that to our attention. CE mentioned in line 294 stands for Capillary electrophoresis__.__

        Comment 10:-

      line 306. Ref. 53: This is not a reference.

      • Response :-Thank you for bringing this to our attention. We understand that reference 53 does not correspond to a valid source. We acknowledge this and want to clarify that due to the unavailability of the proper reference, we included this reference. We have now changed the reference to the Crysalis Pro software.

        Comment 11:-

      • Results. 1: Didn't understand the relevance of Fig. 1C, as this data is already included in Fig. 1B.

      • Response :-Thank you for bringing this to our attention. We apologize for any confusion caused by including Fig. 1C, especially since the data it presents overlaps with that of Fig. 1B. To ensure clarity, we have made modifications accordingly. Figures (A) and (C) depict the viability of Vero cells measured by an MTT assay after a total incubation of 134 hours. This protocol involved a 12-hour pre-treatment with either HC (A) or CAPE (C), followed by additional incubation steps as detailed in the legend. In contrast, figure (B) shows the cell viability of Vero cells treated with CAPE only, measured after a total incubation of 38 hours.

      • To avoid further confusion figure legend has been changed from "(A) and (C) depicts the percent cell viability of Vero cells treated with HC and CAPE for 12 hr pre-treatment and 24 hr post-treatment and incubated in maintenance media for 4 days, (B) shows the percent cell viability of Vero cells treated with CAPE for 12 hr pre-treatment and 24 hr post-treatment. " to "(A) and (C) depicts the percent cell viability of Vero cells treated with HC and CAPE for 12 hr pre-treatment followed by a 2-hour incubation with maintenance media, 24 hr post-treatment, and incubated in maintenance media for 4 days, (B) shows the percent cell viability of Vero cells treated with CAPE for 12 hr pre-treatment, followed by a 2-hour incubation with maintenance media and 24 hr post-treatment."

        Comment 12:-

      Fig. 1G and H are not referred to in the result text.

      • Response :-Thank you for pointing out the oversight regarding Fig. 1G and H not being referred to in the results text. We have added following statement Results p.1 Line no. 354 "Likewise, HC and CAPE treatment to Vero cells has shown a decrease in viral titer DENV-infected cells in a dose-dependent manner (Figure 1 G-H)."
      • *

      Comment 12:-

      Lines 342, 343: 'At the mentioned concentrations', where are these concentrations mentioned?

      • Response:-*Thank you for bringing this to our attention. We acknowledge this mistake regarding the mentioned concentrations at lines 342 and 343. RT-PCR was conducted for CHIKV using concentrations of 200 µM for HC, 25 µM for CAPE, and 1000 µM for DFMO. Similarly, for DENV, RT-PCR was performed with concentrations of 200 µM for HC, 2.5 µM for CAPE, and 1000 µM for DFMO. To avoid further confusion, Figure legends were revised and line no. 846 to 848 "(1F) RT-PCR for CHIKV with HC 200 µM, CAPE 25 µM, DFMO 1000 µM concentration (1I) RT-PCR for DENV with HC 200 uM, CAPE 2.5 uM and DFMO 1000 µM" *
      • *

      Comment 13:-

      qRT-PCR data is not very clear. Please consider elaborating on some details. Why were the statistics only performed between HC and DFMO and not with CAPE? How the fold reduction is being calculated? For example, the fold difference of 97 is not visibly evident.

      • Response:- We regret that the clarity of the qRT-PCR data was not satisfactory. We acknowledge your feedback and understand the importance of elaborating on certain details. The statistics were performed for all treatment groups, including HC, CAPE, and DFMO. However, the representation in the graph was adjusted by replacing the "top square bracket" with a "line" to avoid confusion. The y-axis of the graph depicts the log10 fold change in target gene expression relative to a designated virus control (VC). A value of ~ -2 on this axis corresponds to a significant downregulation, reflecting a 97-fold decrease in expression compared to the VC. A comparable graphical depiction is also evident in the work by Mudgal et al. (2022).

        Comment 14:-

      Line 375: 'SAM is lined by residues ... would be more appropriate than 'formed'

      • Response :-Done as suggested. We have revised the sentence in question and similar ones accordingly. "In CHIKV nsP1, SAM is formed by residues Gly65, Ser66, Ala67, Pro83, Arg85, Ser86, Asp89, Thr137, Asp138…" changed to line no. 393 "In CHIKV nsP1, SAM binding site is lined by,….."

        Comment 15:-

      Fig. 1J. For TLC results, consider using the term panel (left, center, right) to navigate within this figure. The representation of this result is not uniform, as the time course is shown for HC while it is not shown for DFMO and CAPE. The treatment time is not indicated for DFMO and CAPE. For better representation and significant differences, one can consider quantifying these TLC results.

      • Response:- Thank you for bringing these points to our attention. Done as suggested. We have simplified the presentation of the TLC results to enhance clarity and revised the methodology, results, figure, and legend accordingly. Also, we have quantified the TLC results. * -*Polyamine determination by Thin-layer chromatography (TLC)

      -Vero cells were treated with HC, CAPE and DFMO, as mentioned in the antiviral assay protocol. Similarly, HC-treated cells were collected after 12, 24, and 36 hr of treatment." Revised to " Vero cells were treated with CAPE (25 µM), HC (200 µM), and DFMO (1000 µM) for 36 hr …… Further, TLC images were quantified utilizing ImageJ software." *Figure legend 1:- (J) depicts the effect of polyamines level after treating with HC (200 µM) and CAPE (25 µM). Polyamine level of Vero treated cells at 12, 24, and 36 hr for HC and pre (12 hr) and post-treatment (24 h) for CAPE and DEMO, using untreated cells as a cell control (CC) for both of the conditions. 0.1 μM putrescine (put), spermine (spm), and spermidine (spd) as a positive control marker. changed to *

      "(J) the chromatographic analysis of polyamine levels in Vero cells after 36 hr treatment with (from left) CAPE (25 µM), HC (200 µM), DFMO(1000 µM), and cell control (CC), 0.1 μM putrescine (Put), spermine (Spm), and spermidine (Spd) as a positive control marker. "

      Results: Line no. 351 "Polyamine levels in cells treated with CAPE were significantly lower as compared to DFMO treatment (Figure 1J). Meanwhile, HC showed a reduction in polyamine levels with the initial 12 hr treatment; later, polyamine levels elevated gradually with time."

      Revised to line no. 371 to 373"After treatment with CAPE, HC, and DFMO to Vero cells, overall residual polyamine levels are 28.33%, 29.67 %, and 46 %, respectively, compared to cell control."

      Comment 16:-

      Fig. 1, figure legend, lines 750-751: instead of 'Panels D-G depicts the inhibitory effect of CHIKV and DENV infected cells on different concentrations of HC and CAPE' should be

      'Panels D-G depicts the inhibitory effect of different concentrations of HC and CAPE on CHIKV and DENV infected cells'

      • Response:-Thank you for the suggestion. We have updated the figure legend to ensure clarity based on your recommendation. (D,E,G,H) depicts the inhibitory effect of different concentrations of HC and CAPE on CHIKV and DENV infected cells'.

        Comment 17:-

      Line 755: DFMO is wrongly written as 'DEMO'

      • Response:- Thank you for bringing that to our attention. We have corrected the typo, changing Line 845 'DEMO' to 'DFMO' as appropriate.

        Comment 18:-

      Fig.2. IFA. Authors must consider on elaborating the IFA data. One can also consider quantifying these data for better comparison with other assays.

      • Response:- We thank reviewer for your input. As per the suggestion we have elaborated the results on IFA. The qualitative application of IFA was chosen because of the absence of dedicated paid software/hardware for image quantification on the Thermofisher EVOS platform, thereby impeding our quantification efforts.

        Comment 19:-

      Result 1 (Suppl. Fig. 1). Line 359: 'After infection': please indicate the time here.

      • Response:- Thank you for the feedback. Line no. 377:We have updated the line to specify the time as “ after 2 h of virus infection," and we have also revised this in the methodology section for clarity.

        Comment 20:-

      Suppl. Fig.1: How was the concentration of these polyamines chosen to be 1µM?

      What will be the effect on increasing concentrations?

      Why were all these three polyamines added together?

      What is the effect of addition of individual polyamine in the rescue of viral titer?

      Will this effect vary if cells are pre-treated with these polyamines and compounds in question are added post viral infection or if both are added simultaneously?

      Response:- We thank the reviewer, for raising these insightful questions. We performed an Exogenous polyamine addition assay as per Mounce et al. 2016 to maintain consistency with established practices and the research focus. The concentration of 1 µM biogenic polyamines (Putrescine, Spermidine, and Spermine) was chosen based on the findings of Mounce et al. (2016), where viral titers were restored to levels comparable to non-treated conditions at this concentration (Mounce, Cesaro, et al., 2016; Mounce, Poirier, et al., 2016)*. Furthermore, increasing the concentration of these polyamines did not yield significant additional effects on viral titer rescue, as observed in their study. *

      The potential influence of pre-treating cells with the biogenic polyamines (putrescine, spermidine, spermine) prior to viral infection, compared to simultaneous addition with the compound in question, is an interesting point. While Mounce et al. (2016) suggest this order may not significantly impact the rescue effect (Mounce, Poirier, et al., 2016)*. Further investigations are warranted to address this question definitively within the context of our specific experimental design. *

      Comment 20:-

      It is understandable that from the data of Suppl Fig.1, authors became keen on exploring the 'other' antiviral target, but then conclusions from Fig. 1J and Suppl. Fig. 1 are contradictory. As from Fig. 1J, it is being conveyed that the tested compounds depletes polyamines level better than the control. On the other hand, in suppl fig.1, when these polyamines are supplemented, the viral titer is not rescued. Of course this might be related to the time of addition of polyamines and compounds. Authors should consider discussing these results in details.

      • Response:-Thank you for your insightful suggestion. We have addressed these results in detail in the discussion section of the manuscript. We conducted an Exogenous Polyamine Addition Assay following the methodology outlined by Mounce et al. (2016) to adhere to established procedures and align with our research objectives. Treatment with DFMO in the presence of exogenous polyamines, as well as treatment with DFMO followed by polyamine addition, led to the rescue of virus titers, as indicated by Mounce et al. (2016). Therefore, according to the data, the timing of exogenous polyamine addition may not be a significant factor. In our manuscript, the timing of polyamine and compound addition was consistent across all treatments (HC, CAPE, and DFMO).

        Comment 21:-

      Result 2. Suppl fig. 2. MSA. Provide complete information in the figure legend: indicate virus names to the corresponding Accession numbers and GenBank ID.

      • Response:-Thank you for bringing this to our attention. We have updated the figure legend in Supplementary Figure 2 to include complete information, indicating the virus names corresponding to the Accession numbers and GenBank IDs.

        Comment 22:-

      Line 392: '2 dimensions' ?

      • Response:-Thank you for bringing this to our attention. As suggested, we have made the change, replacing "2 dimensions" with "2D" for clarity.

        Comment 23:-

      Result 3. Authors didn't comment/discuss on the significance of these tests with GTP, SAM and difference in the Kd values: for CHIKV and DENV and other details

      • Response:- We appreciate the reviewer's feedback. We have expanded upon these results in more detail in the discussion section. Discussion p.4 line no. 512 "Biophysical interactions by TFS indicate distinct red shift for nsP1 and NS5 MTase, with each compound displaying specific affinities toward the target proteins." revised to line no. 551 to 557 "The binding affinities of SAM and GTP with CHIKV nsP1 and DENV NS5 MTase were investigated and used as a reference to compare with HC and CAPE. HC has a high binding affinity for both enzymes, as evidenced by the Kd values. Conversely, CAPE demonstrates a more selective binding profile, exhibiting a significantly stronger affinity towards nsP1 than NS5 MTase. Significantly, both HC and CAPE have demonstrated a dose-dependent red shift, indicating structural changes upon interaction (Figure 5 and Supplimentary figure 5)."
      • *

      Comment 25 Result 4. Fig. 6A and 6E: The text does not report this result (SDS-PAGE). Fig. 6

      • Response We appreciate the reviewer for bringing this to our attention. As per suggestion, we have incorporated the SDS-PAGE results in Fig. 6 in the text.line no. 467 to 468 "Single band at ~ 56 and ~ 32 kDa was observed in 12% SDS-PAGE for purified nsP1 and NS5 MTase, respectively ( Figure 6A and 6E)."

        Comment 24:-

      Did authors also perform the enzymatic assays (inhibition assays) with DFMO?

      • Response:- Thank you for your intriguing question. We appreciate the reviewer's interest. We opted not to conduct enzymatic assays (inhibition assays) with DFMO, as it is a known analog of ornithine, a well-established inhibitor of the polyamine pathway (ornithine decarboxylase inhibitor). This decision was made as it was deemed outside the scope of our study.

        Comment 25:-

      Typographic errors: ml to mL, µl to µL, E. coli to E. coli (line 956), in multiple figures: chose titre or titer

      • Response:- We thank the reviewer for their meticulous attention to detail. As per your observation, we have carefully reviewed the manuscript and made the necessary corrections, including changing "ml" to "mL", "µl" to "µL", and "E. coli" to " coli" (line no.. 1042). Additionally, we have standardized the usage of "titre" to "titer" across multiple figures. __References: __

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      Referee #3

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      The manuscript submitted by Bhutkar M. et al. details the antiviral properties of two compounds, herbacetin (HC) and caffeic acid phenethyl ester (CAPE), against Chikungunya virus (CHIKV) and Dengue virus (DENV) through cellular, bioinformatics, biochemical, biophysical, and structural studies. The authors propose a dual antiviral mechanism of action exhibited by these compounds, beginning with an evaluation of their cytotoxicity. Subsequent assessments of their antiviral efficacy against CHIKV and DENV are addressed using plaque reduction assay and other orthogonal assays such as qRT-PCR, and Immunofluorescence assay (IFA). Further, authors performed thin layer chromatography (TLC) to monitor polyamine levels in the cells treated with these compounds and concluded that these compounds leads to polyamine depletion which is also supported by previous studies. These experiments included DFMO as a control which is well established for its role in this regulation. Beyond their impact on cellular polyamine levels, the authors propose a role for these compounds in the inhibition of MTase domains in CHIKV and DENV, supported by the crystal structure of the DENV-3 NS5 MTase domain in complex with CAPE.

      Major points

      While the manuscript presents promising findings regarding the dual antiviral effects of the tested compounds, the authors fall short of demonstrating direct inhibition of MTase activity as a meaningful and complementary effect to polyamine depletion. Being only indirect, the enzyme inhibition data is not convincing, and the measured indirect inhibition are not precise enough in the case of CHIK nsp1, and too weak in the case of DENV NS5 (detailed below).

      Conceptually, the organization of the results should be changed to first data (structural data of DENV MTase in complex with CAPE, which is a significant achievement), then interpretation/discussion with modeling, and not the other way around.

      The discussion section requires more elaborate scientific justification rather than simply re-reporting the results.

      Specific major remarks:

      It would be best to organize the ms as follows: - Crystal structure of DENV MTase in complex with CAPE - Building of a model of nsp1 by superimposition with NS5 MTase - Modeling compound binding - Inhibition assays using enzyme assays at least in the case of NS5 MTase. The direct enzyme assays are well described in the literature. - If there is no inhibition, then discussion about possible reasons would be interesting and help the AV field. For example, CAPE could bind to other enzyme or sites, etc...

      Figure 5 is problematic. - When presenting an y IC50 data, care should be taken that the IC50 inflexion point is preceded and followed by at least two experimental points, which is not the case. The IC50 value of 7.082 and 5.156 µM are too imprecise (and there is no need to give digits after the value). Please add more low concentration experimental points. - Please describe more panel D in the legend. - Panel F and G: A reduction of 25 % at the highest concentration of inhibitor is a strong indication that there is no effect.

      Minor Points/Comments/ Suggestions:

      A. In the Introduction section, line 58: Are DENV infection numbers representative of worldwide distribution, please clarify. Also, in the case of CHIKV infection, the most affected countries are mentioned, why not follow the same pattern for DENV, please consider homogenizing the text.

      B. Before p. 4 (line 91), alphaviruses were not introduced. Please consider introducing them.

      C. Consider introducing Dengue serotypes to help readers understand the significance of DENV-2 and DENV-3. Additionally, ensure uniformity by referring to these serotypes as DENV-2, DENV-3 throughout. There are inconsistencies in the current text, such as 'DENV 3' in lines 39 and 152, and 'DENV3' in lines 249 and 250, among others.

      D. P. 4, 5 lines 91-134: Consider rephrasing/reorganizing the methylation process: conventional and unconventional. The current introduction doesn't clearly indicates the difference between the cap-0 capping in alphaviruses and cap-1 in flaviviruses.

      E. Please consider citing the article instead of the referred link, wherever possible, for e.g., for ref. 22 PMID: 28218572 (a more recent reference for Flaviviridae taxonomy available than that mentioned in the current manuscript.)

      F. Homogenize the writing of taxonomic names (viral families) in the text. For example, in line 126 change Flaviviridae to Flaviviridae, and line 476 (Discussion section), alphaviridae to Alphaviridae, flaviviridae to Flaviviridae and so on. For further clarification on addressing this, one can also refer to https://ictv.global/faq/names.

      G. Please make sure to appropriately reference the corresponding supplementary information (text or figures) in the main text wherever necessary to avoid the impression of missing information. For instance, in none of the sub-sections of Materials and Methods (M&M), it is being indicated to refer to the suppl. experimental procedures for more details. Also consider not repeating the same information between the main experimental procedures text and the supplementary text.

      H. M&M sub-section. 2, line 163: Which specific culture media is being referred to here? Could you provide additional details? On line 164, it mentions that polyamines were diluted in water. Is this water sterile tissue culture-grade water as indicated in line 161?

      I. M&M, line 274: What is CE? Please expand the term before using the abbreviation.

      J. line 306. Ref. 53: This is not a reference.

      K. Results. 1: Didn't understand the relevance of Fig. 1C, as this data is already included in Fig. 1B. Fig. 1G and H are not referred to in the result text. Lines 342, 343: 'At the mentioned concentrations', where are these concentrations mentioned? qRT-PCR data is not very clear. Please consider elaborating on some details. Why the statistics were only performed between HC and DFMO and not with CAPE? How the fold reduction is being calculated? For example, the fold difference of 97 is not visibly evident. Line 375: 'SAM is lined by residues ... would be more appropriate than 'formed' Fig. 1J. For TLC results, consider using the term panel (left, center, right) to navigate within this figure. The representation of this result is not uniform, as the time course is shown for HC while it is not shown for DFMO and CAPE. The treatment time is not indicated for DFMO and CAPE. For better representation and significant differences, one can consider quantifying these TLC results. Fig. 1, figure legend, lines 750-751: instead of 'Panels D-G depicts the inhibitory effect of CHIKV and DENV infected cells on different concentrations of HC and CAPE' should be 'Panels D-G depicts the inhibitory effect of different concentrations of HC and CAPE on CHIKV and DENV infected cells'. Line 755: DFMO is wrongly written as 'DEMO' Fig.2. IFA. Authors must consider on elaborating the IFA data. One can also consider quantifying these data for better comparison with other assays.

      Result 1 (Suppl. Fig. 1). Line 359: 'After infection': please indicate the time here. Suppl. Fig.1: How was the concentration of these polyamines chosen to be 1µM? What will be the effect on increasing concentrations? Why were all these three polyamines added together? What is the effect of addition of individual polyamine in the rescue of viral titer? Will this effect vary if cells are pre-treated with these polyamines and compounds in question are added post viral infection or if both are added at the same time? It is understandable that from the data of Suppl Fig.1, authors became keen on exploring the 'other' antiviral target, but then conclusions from Fig. 1J and Suppl. Fig. 1 are contradictory. As from Fig. 1J, it is being conveyed that the tested compounds depletes polyamines level better than the control. On the other hand, in suppl fig.1, when these polyamines are supplemented, the viral titer is not rescued. Of course this might be related to the time of addition of polyamines and compounds. Authors should consider discussing these results in details.

      Result 2. Suppl fig. 2. MSA. Provide complete information in the figure legend: indicate virus names to the corresponding Accession numbers and GenBank ID. Line 392: '2 dimensions' ?

      Result 3. Authors didn't comment/discuss on the significance of these tests with GTP, SAM and difference in the Kd values: for CHIKV and DENV and other details

      Result 4. Fig. 6A and 6E: This result (SDS-PAGE) is not reported in the text. Fig. 6

      Did authors also perform the enzymatic assays (inhibition assays) with DFMO?

      Typographic errors: ml to mL, µl to µL, E. coli to E. coli (line 956), in multiple figures: chose titre or titer

      Significance

      This a body of work that is very interesting and has good potential, however it lacks the correct demonstration of the additive effect of MTase inhibition to polyamine depletion.

    1. Pomimo wyników wskazujących na zmienioną modulację autonomiczną w ADHD, ogólne wyniki recenzowanych badań były niejednorodne. Kilka czynników w obecnie dostępnych badaniach pierwotnych mogło potencjalnie przyczynić się do niespójności wyników: Np. Oliver i in. (2012) zrekrutowali swoją próbę badawczą spośród studentów, dlatego uczestnicy badania prawdopodobnie wykazywali mniejsze nasilenie objawów niż pacjenci kliniczni poszukujący leczenia, co może częściowo tłumaczyć nieistotność niektórych wyników badań pierwotnych (Oliver i wsp., 2012). Ogólnie rzecz biorąc, różnice płci i odmienności podtypów są jeszcze niedostatecznie zbadanymi aspektami ADHS. W kilku publikacjach odnotowano różnicę płci w zakresie rozpowszechnienia podtypów, przy czym kobiety częściej wykazywały głównie objawy nieuwagi, a mężczyźni częściej wykazywali nadpobudliwość i impulsywność, a także objawy złożone (Stibbe i in., 2020). Biorąc pod uwagę, że objawy nieuwagi częściej utrzymują się od dzieciństwa do dorosłości, możemy zaobserwować inny wzorzec w badaniach obejmujących dzieciństwo i okres dojrzewania.Spośród włączonych badań tylko Hermens i in. (2004) oraz Fischer (2013) dalej badali podtypy (Fischer, 2013; Hermens i inni, 2004). Podczas gdy Fischer (2013) nie znalazł korelacji między podtypami ADHD a parametrami autonomicznej modulacji sercowo-naczyniowej, Hermens i in. (2004) stwierdzili, że kobiety z ADHD wykazywały znacznie zmniejszoną aktywność współczulną, gdy podtyp ADHD był stosowany jako zmienna towarzysząca (Fischer, 2013; Hermens i inni, 2004).Stan przyjmowania leków był niejednorodny w badanych populacjach i kontrolowany w kilku, ale nie we wszystkich badaniach (Tabela 1). Na przykład Schubiner i in. (2006) włączyli do swojego badania tylko leczonych pacjentów z ADHD, którzy przyjmowali stałe dawki leków pobudzających przez co najmniej dwa miesiące i zostali poinstruowani, aby przyjmować leki pobudzające w dniu badania (Schubiner i in., 2006). W badaniu O'Connell i in. (2009) dziewięciu pacjentów przyjmowało obecnie leki psychostymulujące, czterech przyjmowało leki pobudzające w przeszłości, ale przestało, a pięciu nie było wcześniej leczonych stymulantami, podczas gdy Spencer i in. (2017) rekrutowali wyłącznie pacjentów z ADHD bez wcześniejszego leczenia farmakologicznego (O'Connell i in., 2008; Spencer i in., 2017). W żadnym z włączonych badań nie stosowano protokołu z włączaniem/wyłączaniem leków w celu sprawdzenia działania leków specyficznych dla ADHD, w związku z czym nie było dostępnych danych na temat wpływu leków psychotropowych na autonomiczną modulację sercowo-naczyniową u pacjentów z ADHD.Większość analizowanych badań pozwoliła na włączenie pacjentów z ADHD ze współistniejącymi chorobami psychicznymi. Najczęstsze choroby współistniejące w ADHD, a mianowicie zaburzenia związane z używaniem substancji, zaburzenia nastroju, zaburzenia lękowe i zaburzenia osobowości (Choi i in., 2022), są związane ze zmianami w modulacji autonomicznej (Baur, 2016; Geiss i in., 2021; Hirvikoski i in., 2011; Lackschewitz i in., 2008; Maier i in., 2014; O'Connell i in., 2009; Wilbertz i in., 2012, 2013, 2017), stąd współistniejące zaburzenia psychiczne mogły mieć dodatkowy wpływ na autonomiczną modulację układu sercowo-naczyniowego. W związku z tym nie jest pewne, czy część zaobserwowanych zmian pojawiła się raczej z powodu ADHD, czy też znaczna część obserwowanych zmian to współistniejące wpływy na autonomiczny układ nerwowy. Prawdopodobnie, ponieważ współwystępowanie ADHD jest wysokie, ekskluzywny protokół badania dopuszczający brak chorób współistniejących w próbie badawczej byłby oczywiście ograniczony pod względem możliwości uogólnienia na populację aADHD. W przyszłych pracach dotyczących autonomicznej modulacji sercowo-naczyniowej w ADHD badacze mogą rozważyć uwzględnienie chorób współistniejących jako zmiennych towarzyszących w swoich analizach, aby dokładniej odpowiedzieć na to pytanie.Różnorodność paradygmatów i podejść eksperymentalnych stosowanych w analizowanych badaniach, w tym zadań emocjonalnych, poznawczych i somatycznych, utrudnia bezpośrednie porównanie różnych badań. Wykorzystanie standaryzowanych zadań, takich jak test stresu społecznego w Trewirze lub bateria Ewinga, może pomóc w zwiększeniu porównywalności badań podstawowych (Ewing i Clarke, 1982; Kirschbaum i in., 1993). Parametry autonomiczne oceniane w badaniach pierwotnych były również niejednorodne, co można znaleźć w Tabeli 2.Liczba badań mieszczących się w zakresie naszego przeglądu była niewielka, a kilka z włączonych badań obejmowało stosunkowo niewielką liczbę uczestników, a w niektórych badaniach pomiary autonomicznego układu nerwowego nie były pierwszorzędowym punktem końcowym. Liczebność próby w badaniach pierwotnych wahała się od 12 do 73 osób badanych, co ma duży wpływ na indywidualną moc statystyczną.Ze względu na heterogeniczność w zakresie socjodemografii, statusu leków, ocenianych parametrów, współwystępowania w pierwotnych próbach badawczych, metaanaliza lub nawet dalsza analiza jakościowa dotycząca wpływów socjodemograficznych nie była możliwa.

      Ograniczenia przeglądu badań - Geiss, L., Stemmler, M., Beck, B., Hillemacher, T., Widder, M., & Hösl, K. M. (2023). Dysregulation of the autonomic nervous system in adult attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. A systematic review. Cognitive Neuropsychiatry, 28(4), 285–306. https://doi.org/10.1080/13546805.2023.2255336

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      This study examined a universal fractal primate brain shape. However, the paper does not seem well structured and is not well written. It is not clear what the purpose of the paper is. And there is a lack of explanation for why the proposed analysis is necessary. As a result, it is challenging to clearly understand what novelty in the paper is and what the main findings are.

      We have now restructured the paper, including a summary of the main purpose and findings as follows:

      “Compared to previous literature, we can summarise our main contribution and advance as follows:

      (i) We are showing for the first time that representative primate species follow the exact same fractal scaling – as opposed to previous work showing that they have a similar fractal dimension [Hofman1985, Hofman1991], i.e. slope, but not necessarily the same offset, as previous methods had no consistent way of comparing offsets.

      (ii) Previous work could also not show direct agreement in morphometrics between the coarse-grained brains of primate species and other non-primate mammalian species.

      (iii) Demonstrating in proof-of-principle that multiscale morphometrics, in practice, can have much larger effect sizes for classification applications. This moves beyond our previous work where we only showed the scaling law across [Mota2015] and within species [Wang2016], but all on one (native) scale with comparable effect sizes for classification applications [Wang2021].

      In simple terms: we know that objects can have the same fractal dimension, but differ greatly in a range of other shape properties. However, we demonstrate here, that representative primate brains and mammalian brain indeed share a range of other key shape properties, on top of agreeing in fractal dimension. This suggests a universal blueprint for mammalian brain shape and a common set of mechanisms governing cortical folding. As a practical additional outcome of our study, we could show that our novel method of deriving multiscale metrics of brain shape can differentiate subtle shape changes much better than the metrics we have been using so far at a single native scale.”

      We plan to use the second paragraph as a plain-language summary of our work.

      Additionally, several terms are introduced without adequate explanation and contextualization, further complicating comprehension.

      We have now made sure that potential jargon is introduced with context and explanation. For example in Introduction: “This scaling law, relating powers of cortical thickness and surface area metrics, […]”

      Does the second section, "2. Coarse-graining procedure", serve as an introduction or a method?

      We have now renamed this section to “Coarse-graining Method” to indicate that this is a section about methods. However, to describe the methods adequately, we also expanded this section with introductory texts around the history and motivation of the method to provide context and explanations, as the reviewer rightly requested.

      Moreover, the rationale behind the use of the coarse-graining procedure is not adequately elucidated. Overall, it is strongly recommended that the paper undergoes significant improvements in terms of its structure, explanatory depth, and overall clarity to enhance its comprehensibility.

      To specifically explain the rationale behind the coarse-graining method, we added several clarifications, including the following paragraph:

      “As a starting point for such a coarse-graining procedure, we suggest to turn to a well-established method that measures fractal dimension of objects: the so-called box-counting algorithm [Kochunov2007, Madan2019]. Briefly, this algorithm fills the object of interest (say the cortex in our case) with boxes, or voxels of increasingly larger sizes and counts the number of boxes in the object as a function of box size. As the box size increases, the number of boxes decreases; and in a log-log plot, the slope of this relationship indicates the fractal dimension of the object. In our case, this method would not only provide us with the fractal dimension of the cortex, but, with increasing box size, the filled cortex would also contain less and less detail of the folded shape of the cortex. Intuitively, with increasing box size, the smaller details, below the resolution of a single box, would disappear first, and increasingly larger details will follow -- precisely what we require from a coarse-graining method. We therefore propose to expand the traditional box-counting method beyond its use to measure fractal dimension, but to also analyse the reconstructed cortices as different realisations of the original cortex at the specified spatial scale.”

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      In this manuscript, Wang and colleagues analyze the shapes of cerebral cortices from several primate species, including subgroups of young and old humans, to characterize commonalities in patterns of gyrification, cortical thickness, and cortical surface area. The work builds on the scaling law introduced previously by co-author Mota, and Herculano-Houzel. The authors state that the observed scaling law shares properties with fractals, where shape properties are similar across several spatial scales. One way the authors assess this is to perform a "cortical melting" operation that they have devised on surface models obtained from several primate species. The authors also explore differences in shape properties between the brains of young (~20 year old) and old (~80) humans. My main criticism of this manuscript is that the findings are presented in too abstract a manner for the scientific contribution to be recognized.

      We recognise that our work is at the intersection of complex mathematical concepts and a perplexing biological phenomenon. Therefore, our paper has to strike a balance between scientifically accurate and succinct descriptions whilst giving sufficient space to provide context and explanations.

      Throughout, we have now added text to provide more context, but also repeat key statements in plain-english terms.

      For example, we added the following text to highlight our key contributions.

      “In simple terms: we know that objects can have the same fractal dimension, but differ greatly in a range of other shape properties. However, we demonstrate here, that representative primate brains and mammalian brain indeed share a range of other key shape properties, on top of agreeing in fractal dimension. This suggests a universal blueprint for mammalian brain shape and a common set of mechanisms governing cortical folding. As a practical additional outcome of our study, we could show that our novel method of deriving multiscale metrics of brain shape can differentiate subtle shape changes much better than the metrics we have been using so far at a single native scale.”

      (1) The series of operations to coarse-grain the cortex illustrated in Figure 1, constitute a novel procedure, but it is not strongly motivated, and it produces image segmentations that do not resemble real brains.

      To specifically explain the rationale behind the coarse-graining method, we added several clarifications, including the following paragraph:

      “As a starting point for such a coarse-graining procedure, we suggest to turn to a well-established method that measures fractal dimension of objects: the so-called box-counting algorithm [Kochunov2007, Madan2019]. Briefly, this algorithm fills the object of interest (say the cortex in our case) with boxes, or voxels of increasingly larger sizes and counts the number of boxes in the object as a function of box size. As the box size increases, the number of boxes decreases; and in a log-log plot, the slope of this relationship indicates the fractal dimension of the object. In our case, this method would not only provide us with the fractal dimension of the cortex, but, with increasing box size, the filled cortex would also contain less and less detail of the folded shape of the cortex. Intuitively, with increasing box size, the smaller details, below the resolution of a single box, would disappear first, and increasingly larger details will follow -- precisely what we require from a coarse-graining method. We therefore propose to expand the traditional box-counting method beyond its use to measure fractal dimension, but to also analyse the reconstructed cortices as different realisations of the original cortex at the specified spatial scale.”

      We also note in several places in the text that the coarse-grained brains are not to be understood as exact reconstructions of actual brains, but serve the purpose of a model:

      “[…] nor are the coarse-grained versions of human brains supposed to exactly resemble the location/pattern/features of gyri and sulci of other primates. The similarity we highlighted here are on the level of summary metrics, and our goal was to highlight the universality in such metrics to point towards highly conserved quantities and mechanisms.”

      “Note, of course, that the coarse-grained brain surfaces are an output of our algorithm alone and not to be directly/naively likened to actual brain surfaces, e.g. in terms of the location or shape of the folds. Our comparisons here between coarse-grained brains and actual brains is purely on the level of morphometrics across the whole cortex.”

      The process to assign voxels in downsampled images to cortex and white matter is biased towards the former, as only 4 corners of a given voxel are needed to intersect the original pial surface, but all 8 corners are needed to be assigned a white matter voxel (section S2). This causes the cortical segmentation, such as the bottom row of Figure 1B, to increase in thickness with successive melting steps, to unrealistic values. For the rightmost figure panel, the cortex consists of several 4.9-sided voxels and thus a >2 cm thick cortex. A structure with these morphological properties is not consistent with the anatomical organization of a typical mammalian neocortex.

      Specifically on the point on increasing cortical thickness with increased level of coarse-graining, we have now added the following paragraph:

      “The observation that with increasing voxel sizes, the coarse-grained cortices tend to be smoother and thicker is particularly interesting: the scaling law in Eq. 1 can be understood as thicker cortices (T) form larger folds (or are smoother i.e. less surface area At) when brain size is kept constant (Ae). This way of understanding has also been vividly illustrated by using the analogy of forming paper balls with papers of varying thickness in [Mota2015]: to achieve the same size of a paper ball (Ae), the one that uses thicker paper (T) will show larger folds (or is smoother i.e. less surface area At) than the one using thinner paper. The scaling law can therefore be understood as a physically and biologically plausible statement, and here, we are encouraged that our algorithm yields results in line with the scaling law.”

      (2) For the comparison between 20-year-old and 80-year-old brains, a well-documented difference is that the older age group possesses more cerebral spinal fluid due to tissue atrophy, and the distances between the walls of gyri becomes greater. This difference is born out in the left column of Figure 4c. It seems this additional spacing between gyri in 80-year-olds requires more extensive down-sampling (larger scale values in Figure 4a) to achieve a similar shape parameter K as for the 20-year-olds. A case could be made that the familiar way of describing brain tissue - cortical volume, white matter volume, thickness, etc. - is a more direct and intuitive way to describe differences between young and old adult brains than the obscure shape metric described in this manuscript. At a minimum, a demonstration of an advantage of the Figure 4a and 4b analyses over current methods for interpreting age-related differences would be valuable.

      We have demonstrated the utility of our new shape metrics in a separate paper [Wang2021]. However, we agree with the reviewer that, in this specific instance, it is much easier to understand the key message without considering the less traditional metrics. We have therefore completely revised this part of the Results section to highlight the advantage of multiscale morphometrics, and used the traditional metric of surface area to illustrate the point. The reasoning in surface area is much easier to follow, both visually and conceptually, exactly as the reviewer described.

      (3) In Discussion lines 199-203, it is stated that self-similarity, operating on all length scales, should be used as a test for existing and future models of gyrification mechanisms. First, the authors do not show, (and it would be surprising if it were true) that self-similarity is observed for length scales smaller than the acquired MRI data for any of the datasets analyzed. The analysis is restricted to coarse (but not fine)-graining.

      To clarify this point, we have added a supplementary section and the following sentence: “Note this method has also no direct dependency on the original MR image resolution, as the inputs are smooth grey and white matter surface meshes reconstructed from the images using strong (bio-)physical assumptions and therefore containing more fine-grained spatial information than the raw images (also see Suppl. Text 3).”

      We are indeed sampling at resolutions down to 0.2mm, which is below MR image resolution. The reviewer is, however, correct that we are only coarse-graining, not “fine-graining”. Coarse-graining, here, relates to more coarse than the smooth surface meshes though, not the MR image.

      Therefore, self-similarity on all length scales would seem to be too strong a constraint. Second, it is hard to imagine how this test could be used in practice. Specific examples of how gyrification mechanisms support or fail to support the generation of self-similarity across any length scale, would strengthen the authors' argument.

      We agree that spatial scales much below 0.2mm resolution may not be of interest, as these scales are only measuring the fractal properties, or “bumpiness”, of the surface meshes at the vertex level. We have therefore revised our statement in Discussion and clarified it with an example: “Finally, this dual universality is also a more stringent test for existing and future models of cortical gyrification mechanisms at relevant scales, and one that moreover is applicable to individual cortices. For example, any models that explicitly simulate a cortical surface could be directly coarse-grained with our method and compared to actual human and primate data provided here.”

      Some additional, specific comments are as follows:

      (4) The definition of the term A_e as the "exposed surface" was difficult to follow at first. It might be helpful to state that this parameter is operationally defined as the convex hull surface area.

      We agree and introduced this term now at first use: “The exposed surface area can be thought of as the surface area of a piece of cling film wrapped around the brain. Mathematically, for the remaining paper it is the convex hull of the brain surface.”

      Also, for the pial surface, A_t, there are several who advocate instead for the analysis of a cortical mid-thickness surface area, as the pial surface area is subject to bias depending on the gyrification index and the shape of the gyri. It would be helpful to understand if the same results are obtained from mid-thickness surfaces.

      This point is indeed being investigated independently of this study. Our provisional understanding is that in healthy human brains, at native scale, using the mid (or the white matter) surface introduced a systematic offset shift in the scaling law, but does not affect the scaling slope of 1.25. However, this requires a more in-depth investigation in a range of other conditions, and in the context of the coarse-grained shapes, which is on-going. Nevertheless, the scaling law, at first introduction already, has been using the pial surface area [Mota2015] and all subsequent follow-up studies followed this convention. To make our paper here accessible and directly comparable, we therefore used the same metric. Future work will investigate the utility of other metrics.

      (5) In Figure 2c, the surfaces get smaller as the coarse-graining increases, making it impossible to visually assess the effects of coarse-graining on the shapes. Why aren't all cortical models shown at the same scale?

      The purpose of rescaling the surfaces is to match the scaling plot (Fig 2A) directly, which are showing shrinking surface areas Ae and At with increasing coarse-graining. Here, we are effectively keeping the size of the box constant and resizing the cortical surface instead, which is mathematically equivalent to changing the box size and keeping the cortical surface constant.

      An alternative interpretation of the “shrinking” is, therefore, that with increasingly smaller cortical surfaces, the folding details disappear, as we require from our coarse-graining method. This is also visually apparent, as the reviewer points out. We have added this to the explanation in the text.

      If we, however, changed the box size instead, the scaling law plot would be meaningless: for example, Ae would barely change with coarse-graining. We would therefore have needed to introduce more complexity in our analysis in terms of how we can measure the scaling law. Thus, we opted to present the simpler method and interpretation here.

      Nevertheless, we agree that a direct comparison would be beneficial and have thus added the videos for each species in supplementary under this link: https://bit.ly/3CDoqZQ Upon completed peer-review, we hope to integrate these directly into eLife’s interactive displays for this figure.

      (6) Text in Section 3.2 emphasizes that K is invariant with scale (horizontal lines in Figure 3), and asserts this is important for the formation of all cortices. However, I might be mistaken, but it appears that K varies with scale in Figure 4a, and the text indicates that differences in the S dependence are of importance for distinguishing young vs. old brains. Is this an inconsistency?

      We agree that it may be confusing to emphasise a “constant K” in the first set of results across species, and then later highlight a changing K in the human ageing results. To clarify, in the first set of results, we find a constant K relative to a changing S: the range in K across melted primate brains is less than 0.1, whereas in S it is over 1.2. In other words, S changes are an order of magnitude higher than K changes. Hence, we described K as “constant” relative to S.

      Nevertheless, K shows subtle changes within individuals, which is what we were describing in the human ageing results. These changes are within the range of K values described in the across species results.

      However, in the interest of clarity, we followed the reviewer’s suggestion of simplifying the last set of results on human ageing and therefore the variable K in human ageing now only appears in Supplementary. We have now added clarifications to the supplementary on this point.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Through a detailed methodology, the authors demonstrated that within 11 different primates, the shape of the brain matched a fractal of dimension 2.5. They enhanced the universality of this result by showing the concordance of their results with a previous study investigating 70 mammalian brains, and the discordance of their results with other folded objects that are not brains. They incidentally illustrated potential applications of this fractal property of the brain by observing a scale-dependent effect of aging on the human brain.

      Strengths:

      • New hierarchical way of expressing cortical shapes at different scales derived from the previous report through the implementation of a coarse-graining procedure.

      Positioning of results in comparison to previous works reinforcing the validity of the observation.

      • Illustration of scale-dependence of effects of brain aging in the human.

      Weaknesses:

      • The impact of the contribution should be clarified compared to previous studies (implementation of new coarse graining procedure, dimensionality of primate brain vs previous studies, and brain aging observations).

      We have now made these changes, particularly by adding two paragraphs to the start of Discussion. One summarising the main contributions above previous work, and one paraphrasing the former in plain English for accessibility.

      • The rather small sample sizes, counterbalanced by the strength of the effect demonstrated.

      We have now increased the sample size of the human ageing analysis substantially to over 100 subjects and observe the same trends, but with an even stronger effect. We therefore believe that this revision serves as an additional internal validation of our data and methods.

      • The use of either averaged or individual brains for the different sub-studies could be made clearer.

      We have now added this to our Suppl methods: with the exception of the Marmoset, all brain surface data were derived from healthy individual brains.

      • The model discussed hypothetically in the discussion is not very clear, and may not be state-of-the-art (axonal tension driving cortical folding? cf. https://doi.org/10.1115/1.4001683).

      We have now added this citation to our Discussion and given it context:

      “Indeed, our previously proposed model [Mota2015] for cortical gyrification is very simple, assuming only a self-avoiding cortex of finite thickness experiencing pressures (e.g. exerted by white matter pulling, or by CSF pressure). The offset K, or 'tension term', precisely relates to these pressures, leading us to speculate that subtle changes in K correlate with changes in white matter property [Wang2016, Wang2021]. In the same vein of speculation, the scale-dependence of K shown in this work might therefore be related to different types of white matter that span different length scales, such as superficial vs. deep white matter, or U-fibres vs. major tracts. However, there are also challenges to the axonal tension hypothesis [Xu2010]. Indeed, white matter tension differentials in the developed brain may not explain location of folds, but instead white matter tension may contribute to a whole-brain scale 'pressure' during development that drives the folding process overall.”

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Many thanks to the authors for this elegant article. I will only report here on the cosmetics of the article.

      We thank the reviewer for their kind words and attention to detail and have made all the suggested changes and revised the paper generally for readability, grammar and spelling.

      p2: last line of abstract: 'for a range of conditions in the future'.

      p3 l.37: I would not self-describe this method as elegant as this is a subjective property .

      p3 l.38: 'that will render' -> I wouldn't use the future here.

      p.4 l.59: double spacing before ref [9]?

      p.6 l.99: 'approximate a fractal' -> why is 'a' italicized?

      p.7 fig.2: I would expect the colours to be detailed in the legend. Are there two data points per species because both hemispheres are treated separately?

      p.9 l.134-135: 'similar to and in terms of the universal law 'as valid as' -> please add commas for reading comfort: 'similar to, and, in terms of the universal law, 'as valid as'.

      p.9 l. 141: For all the cortices we analysed.

      p.9 Fig 3: I find the colours a bit confusing in Figs B and C. I find Fig C a bit confusing: what are all the lines representative of, and more specifically, the two lower lines with a different trajectory?

      p.10 l.155: '1̃500' -> '~1500'.

      p.13 l. 209: either 'speculate that' of 'wonder if'.

      p.14 l.232: 'neuron numbers' -> 'number of neurons'.

      p.26 S2 second paragraph: 'gryi' -> 'gyri'.

      p.30 l.3: please refrain from starting a sentence with I.e..

      p.30 last line before S3.2: 'The algorithmic implementation in MATLAB can be found on Zenodo: TBA' - I guess this is linked to you disclosing the code upon acceptance, but please complete before final submission.

      p.34 middle/bottom of page: 'The scheme described in Sec. S3.1' -> double spacing before S3.1?

      p.35 l.1: 'We simply replace' -> 'we simply replace' (no capital).

      p.36 Fig S5.1: explicit the same colouring of the points and boxes in legend

      p.38 Fig. S6.1: briefly describe the use of colours in the legend.

      p.39 Fig. S7.1: detail colours in the legend.

      p.41 Fig. S7.3: detail colours in the legend.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      • Line 144, after eq. (1). Vectors d_i need to be defined. Are these the mapping of vectors e_i due to the active deformation? It would be useful to state then that d_3 is aligned with r'.

      Thank you for your suggestion, and the definition has been added to lines 146-149 for a better understanding of the model.

      • Line 144.Authors state a_i(0,0,Z)=0. Shouldn't this be true also for any angle, i.e., a_i(0,Theta, Z)=0?

      Thank you, we have revised it in line 144.

      • Line 156. G_0 is defined as Diag(1,g_0(t), 1), which seems to be using cylindrical coordinates. Previously, in line 147, vector argument X of \chi is defined with Cartesian coordinates (X,Y,Z). Shouldn't these be also cylindrical?

      We are very sorry for this error, our initial configuration is defined with cylindrical coordinates, we have revised it in the manuscript line 151.

      • Line 162. "where alpha and beta lie in the range [-pi/2, pi/2]" has already been indicated.

      Thank you for your mention, we have deleted duplicate information in line 166.

      • Line 171. W is defined as the strain energy density, while in equation (2), symbol W is the total energy (which depends on the previous W). Letters for total elastic and strain energy must be distinguished.

      Thank you, we have changed the letter for total energy in Eq.(2).

      • Line 176. "we take advantage of the weakness of" -> "we take advantage of the small value of".

      We have revised it in line 179.

      • Line 177. Why is there a subscript i in p_i? If these do not correspond to penalty p, but to parameters in eqn (3), the latter should have been introduced before this line.

      We have revised this error in line 180.

      • Line 186. "as the overall elongation \zeta". This parameter, axial extension, has not been defined yet.

      Thank you for your mention, the definition of \zeta is now given in line 146.

      • Figure 4. Why are the values of g_0 from the elastic model and equations (30)-(32) so non-smooth? Clarify what is being fit and what is the input in the latter equations. Final external radius R_3? Final internal radius R_1'?

      (1) To mimic the embryo, we consider a multi-layered cylindrical body so that the shear modulus of each layer is different. The continuity of both deformations and stresses is imposed (see Eq.(26)-Eq.(30). This is the usual treatment for complex morpho-elastic systems. Obviously, $g_0$ originates from the actomyosin cortex so it appears only in the corresponding layer. Finally, all physical quantities such as deformations and stresses must be continuous.

      (2) The final outer radius is R_3, which represents the outer radius of C. elegans embryos. In addition to R_3, what we need to consider in this model are R_1’=0.7, R_1’=0.768, R_2=0.8 and R_2’=0.96, these definitions have been added in the caption of Appendix 2—figure 1.

      • Line 663, equation (19). Parameter mu is multiplying penalisation term with p, while in equation (2) mu is only affecting the elastic part.

      These two different ways of expressing the energy function will ultimately affect the value of p, but the two p are not the same quantities, so they will not affect our results. To avoid misunderstandings, we will replace p in equation (19) with q.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      As mentioned in my public summary, I find the writing really not adequate. I provide here a list of specific points that the authors should in my opinion address. As a general comment, I would delete many instances of 'the'.

      First, here are figures and whole paragraphs that do not seem to bring anything to the understanding of the phenomenon of C. elegans elongation, notably, Figs. 2, 3C-H, 5m, and 6. Figures 6G and 7 are the only figures containing results it seems. Some elements of the figures are repeated, for example, the illustration of the system's cross-section in Figs 3 and 5.

      Thank you for your suggestion, we have made some adjustments to our images to remove some of the duplicate information.

      Second, and this is my most important criticism: the mechanism of elongation by releasing elastic stress introduced by muscle contraction is not explained in clear terms anywhere in the text. At least, I was unable to understand it. On p 10 you write "This energy exchange causes the torsion-bending energy to convert into elongation energy, (...)" How this is done is not explained. I assume that the reference state is somehow changed through muscle contraction. The new reference state probably has a longer axis than the one before, but this would then be a plastic deformation and not purely elastic as claimed by the authors (ll 76: "This work aims to answer this paradox within the framework of finite elasticity without invoking cell plasticity (...)"). Is torsion important for this process or is it 'just' another way to store elastic energy in the system?

      We perfectly explain most of the exchange of energy between bending, torsion and elongation: indeed, we quantify all aspects of this transformation as the elastic elongation energy, and the dissipation processes which will cost energy. The dissipation evaluated here concerns the rotation of the worm due to the muscle geometry and the viscous friction at the inner surface of the egg. Torsion seems to appear in the late stages and only in some cases. As we show, it comes from a torque induced by the muscles which are not vertical. vertical. Finally, our quantitative predictions of the modelling which recovers most of the experimental published results.

      Third, there are a number of strange phrasings and the notation is not helpful in places.

      We feel sorry for that, the manuscript is now more precise.

      Fourth, the title promises to explain how cyclic muscle contractions reinforce acto-myosin motors. I can't see this done in this work.

      The fact that the acto-myosin is reorganized between two sequences of contraction justifies the title. The complete reorganization of the actomyosin network would require a chemico-mechanical model that is not achieved here, perhaps in future work as data become available.

      In addition:

      We have chosen to respond globally rather than point by point to the referee’s recommendations.

      Typographic errors and vocabulary

      All English corrections and typos are now included in the main text.

      Figures and captions:

      Figures and captions have been improved.

      • Figure 1: Make the caption and the illustration more coherent. For example, only two cell types are distinguished; in the caption, you mention lateral cells, in the sketch seam cells. What is the difference between acto-myosin and muscle contraction? Muscle contraction is also auto-myosin-based.

      (1) The caption for Fig.1 is revised.

      (2) From a mechanical point of view, actomyosin bundles in C elegans are orthoradial, whereas muscles are essentially parallel to the main axis of the body are essentially parallel to the main axis of the body, so the geometry is completely different and of extreme importance for deformation. Muscle contractions are quasi-periodic, we do not know the dynamics of the attached molecular motor of myosin. So of course, both contain actin and myosin (not exactly the same proteins), but our model is sensitive to more macroscopic properties.

      • Figure 2: I do not find this figure helpful. I might expect such a figure in a grant proposal, but much less in an article.

      Figure 2 shows the strategy of our work, we hope that readers can see at a glance what kind of analysis has been done through this figure: since our work is divided into several parts, readers can also unravel the logic through this scheme after reading the whole manuscript. So, this diagram is a guide, and it may be helpful and necessary.

      • Figure 3: Figure 3 A, right: What is the dashed line? B You indicate fibers, but your model does not contain fibers, does it? How do I get from the cube to the deformed object? What is the relation of C-H with the rest of the work? Furthermore, you mention seam cells in Fig. 1, but they are absent here. Why can you neglect them? Why introduce them in the first place? E What is a plant vine? F-H What rods are you referring to? Plants do not have muscles, right?

      We have modified this figure, and the original Figure 3 now corresponds to Figures 3 and 4.

      (1) The dashed line is the centerline after deformation.

      (2) The referee is wrong: our model represents the fibers by a higher shear modulus for the actomyosin cortex and for the muscles (see Table Appendix 1) and G_1 reflects the activities of the muscle and actin fibers.

      (3) The cube in Figure 3 is a mathematical 3D volume element that is subjected to stresses. Hyperelasticity modelling is based on such a representation.

      (4) C-H(new version: Fig.4 A-F): These images show similar deformations: bending and torsion as our C. elegans study. These figures indicate that such deformations are quite common in nature, even if the underlying mechanism is different.

      (5) This is a point we have already mentioned: we ignore the difference between the different types of epidermal cells and average their role in the early and second stages of elongation.

      (6) The plant vine is the 'botanical vine', see Goriely's article and book.

      (7) F-H(new version: Fig.4 D-F) do not have fixed rods, we set a curvature and torsion to fit the actual biological behavior.

      (8) Plants do not have muscles, but they grow, and our formalism for growth, pre-strain and material plasticity is very similar to the hyper-elasticity formalism.

      • Figure 4: Fig .4 A: "The central or inner part (0 < 𝑅 < 𝑅2, shear modulus 𝜇𝑖) except the muscles which are stiffer." I do not understand.

      In the new version, this figure corresponds to Fig.5. The shear modulus of the intrinsic part is very small, but the muscles are harder so we have to consider them separately, we have revised this sentence to avoid misunderstanding.

      • Figure 5: Fig 5 A and D: The schematic of the cross-section has appeared already in the previous figure. No need to repeat it here. The same holds for the schematic of the cylindrical embryo. Caption: "But, the yellow region is not an actual tissue layer and it is simply to define the position of muscles." Why do you introduce the yellow region at all? I do not think that it clarifies anything. "Deformation diagram, when left side muscles M_1 and M_2." Something seems to be missing here. Similarly in the next sentence. "the actin fiber orientation changes from the 'loop' to the 'slope'" Do the rings break up and form a helix?

      In the new version, this figure corresponds to Fig.6.

      (1) We have made revisions to these figures.

      (2) The yellow part can show the accurate location of four muscles, which is important for our model and further calculations.

      (3) We have revised this sentence in the caption of Fig. 6.

      (4) Actin rings do not change to a helix pattern, they will be only sloping.

      • Figure 6: Fig 6 A-C These panels do not go beyond Fig 5B. Fig 6D: what are these images supposed to show? They are not really graphs, but microscopy images. The caption is not helpful to understand, what the reader is supposed to see here. Fig 6F: do you really want to plot a linear curve?

      In the new version, Fig.5 and Fig.6 respectively correspond to Fig.6 and Fig.7.

      (1) Fig.6 shows the simulated images, and Fig.7 A-C is the real calculation results, they are different.

      (2) Fig.7 D can show the real condition during C. elegans late elongation, here, we would like to show the torsion of the C. elegans.

      (3) Yes, it is our result.

      Discussions concerning the biological referee questions:

      Ll 75: “how the muscle contractions couple to the acto-myosin activity" Again I find this misleading because muscle contraction relies on auto-myosin activity. Probably, you can find a better expression to refer to the activity of the actomyosin network in the epidermis. Do you propose any mechanism for how muscle contraction increases epidermal contractility? This does not seem to be the mechanism that you propose for elongation, is it?

      The actomyosin activity will not stop because of the muscle contraction. Obviously, these two processes cannot be independent. The energy released by a muscle contraction event can and must contribute to the reorganization of the actomyosin network that occurs during the elongation process. Indeed, despite the fact that the embryo elongates, the density of actin cables appears to be maintained, which automatically requires a redistribution of actin monomers. We propose a scenario in which muscle contraction increases actomyosin contractility via energy conversion. We show that after unilateral contraction there is an energy release for this once all dissipation factors are eliminated. We invite the reviewer to re-examine Figure 2 and invite biologists to seriously evaluate the density of molecular motors attached to the circumferential actin cable throughout the stretch process.

      Ll 133: "we decide to simplify the geometrical aspect because of the mechanical complexity" This is hardly a justification. Why is it appropriate?

      Yes, we would like to offer the reader the simplest modelling with a limiting technicity and a limited number of unknown parameters.

      L 135: "active strains" Why not active stress?

      The two are equivalent, the choice is dictated by the simplicity of deriving quantitative results for comparison with experiments.

      L 170: "hyperelastic" Please, explain this term.

      It is the elasticity of very soft samples subjected to large deformations. For classic references, see the books of Ogden, Holzapfel and Goriely, all of which are mentioned in our paper.

      Major criticism

      Eq. 3 and Ll 227: "𝑝1 is the ratio between the free available myosin population and the attached ones divided by the time of recruitment" Why is the time of recruitment the same for all motors? "inverse of the debonding time" Is it the same as the unbinding rate? Why use the symbol p_2 for it? What is p_3?

      The model proposed to justify the increase in the activity of the actomyosin motors during the first phase is a mean-field model: thus all quantities are averaged: we are not considering the theory of a single molecular motor, but a collection in a dynamic environment, so we do not need stochasticity here. Equation (3) concerns the compressive pre-strain, which by definition is a quantity varying between $0$ and $1$ and $X_g=1-G$. ... The debonding time is not the same as the debonding rate. The term $p_3$ indicates saturation and is derived from the law of mass action. The good agreement with the experimental data is shown in Fig.5 (A) and (B). An equivalent model has been developed by (M. Serra et al.).

      Serra M, Serrano Nájera G, Chuai M, et al. A mechanochemical model recapitulates distinct vertebrate gastrulation modes[J]. Science Advances, 2023, 9(49)

      Ll 275: "This energy exchange causes the torsion-bending energy to convert into elongation energy, leading to a length increase during the relaxation phase, as shown in Fig.1 of Appendix 5." You have posed the puzzle of how contraction leads to elongation, and now that you resolve the puzzle, you simply say that torsion and bending energy are converted into elongation. How? Usually, if I deform an elastic object, it will return to its original configuration after releasing the external forces. Why is this not the case here?

      Furthermore, the central result of your work is presented in an Appendix!?

      We agree with the referee that an elastic object will return to its initial configuration by releasing stress, i.e. by giving up its accumulated elastic energy to the environment. But the elastic energy has to go somewhere, such as heat. We do not dare to say that the temperature of the worm increases during the muscle contractions.

      In fact, the referee's comment also assumes that full relaxation of the stresses is possible, so the object is not a multi-layered specimen and/or it is not enclosed in a box. Most living species are under stress, usually called residual stress. Our skin is under stress. Our fingerprints result from an elastic instability of the epidermis, occurring on foetal life as our brain circumvolutions or our vili. . So, it is obvious that stresses are maintained in multilayered living systems. Closer to the case of C. elegans, the existence of stresses has been demonstrated by experiments with laser ablation fractures in the first stage. The fact that the fractures open proves the existence of stress: if not, there is no opening and only a straight line.

      Ll 379: "Although a special focus is made on late elongation, its quantitative treatment cannot avoid the influence of the first stage of elongation due to the acto-myosin network, which is responsible for a prestrain of the embryo." This statement is made repeatedly through the manuscript, but I do not understand, why you could not use an initial state without pre-strain.

      This is the basic concept of hyperelasticity. The reference state must be free of stress, so we cannot evaluate the first muscle contraction without treating the first elongation stage.

      Grammar, vocabulary and writing errors

      ll 31: "the influence of mechanical stresses (...) becomes more complex to be identified and quantified" Is the influence of mechanical stress too complex or too difficult to be identified/quantified?

      We have revised it in line 31, “The superposition of mechanical stresses, cellular processes (e.g., division, migration), and tissue organization is often too complex to identify and quantify.”

      Ll 41: "The embryonic elongation of C. elegans represents an attractive model of matter reorganization without a mass increase before hatching." Maybe "Embryonic elongation of C. elegans before hatching represents an attractive model of matter reorganization in the absence of growth.".

      We have revised it in line 41.

      L 42: "It happens after the ventral enclosure (...)" Maybe "It happens after ventral enclosure (...)".

      We have revised it in line 42.

      Ll 52: "The transition is well defined since the muscle participation makes the embryo rather motile impeding any physical experiments such as laser ablation (...)" Ablation of what?

      We have revised it in line 53:The transition is well defined, because the muscle involvement makes the embryo rather motile, and any physical experiments such as laser fracture ablation of the epidermis, which could be performed and achieved in the first period (\cite{vuong2017interplay}), become difficult,.

      Ll 59: "a hollow cylinder composed of four parts (seam and dorso-ventral cells)" It is not clear, what the four parts are - in the parenthesis, two are mentioned.

      We have revised it in line 59. Fig.1 shows the whole structure, dorsal, ventral and seam cells form four parts of the epidermis.

      L 78: "several important issues at this stage remain unsettled" At which stage?

      It means the late elongation stage, we have added this information in line 78.

      Ll 85: "but how it works at small scales remains a challenge." Maybe "but how it works at small scales remains to be understood.".

      We have revised it in line 86.

      Ll 99: "the osmolarity of the interstitial fluid" The comes out of the blue. Before you only talked about mechanics, why now osmolarity? Also, the interstitial fluid is only mentioned now. It is important for the dissipative effects that you discuss later, right? If yes, then you should probably introduce it earlier.

      For a better understanding, we have change osmolarity into viscosity in line 99.

      l 120: "The cortex is composed of three distinct cells" Maybe "distinct cell types".

      Thank you, and we have revised it in line 120.

      L 121: "cytoskeleton organization and actin network configurations" What is the difference between cytoskeleton organization and actin network configuration? Also, either both should be plural or both singular, I guess.

      (1) Cytoskeleton (which involves microtubules) forms the epidermis of C. elegans embryos, and the actin network surrounds the epidermis.

      (2) Thank you for your suggestion, we have revised it in line 121.

      L 130: "which will be introduced hereafter" Maybe "which will be used hereafter".

      We have revised it in line 130.

      Ll 148: "The geometric deformation gradient" You usually denote vectors in bold face, so \chi should be bold, right? Define d_i in Eq.(1).

      Yes, we have added this information in line 147.

      L 172: "auxiliary energy density" Please, explain this term.

      We have changed "auxiliary energy density" into "associated energy density" in line 175. Energy density is the amount of energy stored in a given system or region of space per unit volume, the associated energy density in our manuscript can help us to do some calculations.

      Ll 188: "Similar active matter can be found in biological systems, from animals to plants as illustrated in Fig.3(C)-(E), they have a structure that generates internal stress/strain when growing or activity. (...)" Why such a general statement during the presentation of the results? The second part of the sentence seems to be incomplete.

      Answers: We would like to show our method is general, and can be used in many situations. We have revised the wrong sentence in line 192.

      Ll 243: "a bending deformation occurs on the left for active muscles localized on left" Maybe "bending to the left occurs if muscles on the left are activated".

      Thank you, we have revised it in line 247.

      L 250: "we assume them are perfectly synchronous" Maybe "we assume them to contract simultaneously". We have revised it in line 252.

      L 258: "the muscle and acto-myosin activities are assumed to work almost simultaneously." Before it was simultaneously, now only almost!? What does almost mean?

      Sorry, we would like to express the same meaning in theses two sentences, we have deleted the word ‘almost’ in line 261.

      Ll 294: "one can hypothesize several scenarios" After that, only one scenario is described it seems.

      Thank you, we have revised this sentence in line 299.

      L 341: "and then is more viscous than water" Maybe "and that is more viscous than water".

      We have revised it in line 345.

      L 373: "before the egg hatch" Maybe "before the embryo (or larva) hatches"?

      We have revised the sentence in line 367.

      L 409: "elephant trunk elongated" maybe "elephant trunk elongation".

      We have revised it in line 412.

      Ll 417: "As one imagines, it is far from triviality (...)" Does this remake help in any way to understand better C. elegans elongation? Also maybe "it is far from trivial".

      We have revised it in line 423.

      Ll 428: "can map the initial stress-free state B_0 to a state B_1, which reflects early elongation process" Maybe: "maps the initial stress-free state B_0 to a state B_1, which describes early elongation".

      We have revised it in line 428.

      L 429: "After in the residually stressed (...)" Maybe "Subsequently, we impose an incremental strain filed G_1 that maps the state B_1 to the state B_2, which represents late elongation".

      We have revised it in line 429.

      l 763: "Modelling details of without pre-strain case" Maybe "Case without pre-strain" or "Modelling in the absence of pre-strain" Similarly for l 784.

      We have revised them in line 763 and line 784.

      Some questions of definition and understanding

      Ll 71: "We can imagine that once the muscle is activated on one side, it can only contract, and then the contraction forces will be transmitted to the epidermis on this side." I do not understand the sentence. Muscle activation leads to contraction, there is nothing to imagine here. Maybe you hypothesize that the muscles are attached to the epidermis such that muscle contraction leads to epidermis deformation?

      Yes, four muscle bands are attached to the epidermis, as shown in Fig.1. The deformation does not concern only the epidermis but the whole embryo during the bending events. We have modified the sentence to avoid misunderstanding, the sentence change to “Once the muscle is activated on one side, it can only contract, and then the contraction forces will be transmitted to the epidermis on this side.” in line 71.

      Ll 110: "However, it is less widely known that its internal striated muscles share similarities with skeletal muscles found in vertebrates in terms of both function and structure" Is it important for what you report, whether this fact is widely known?

      Yes, it is our opinion.

      Ll 112: "the role of the four axial muscles (...) is nearly contra-intuitive" Is it or is it not? If yes, why?

      Yes it is. Muscles exert contractions, so compressive deformations. Their localization are along the axis of symmetry (up to a small deviation) so they cannot mechanically realize the expected elongation, contrary to the orthoradial actomyosin network.

      However, elongation of the C. elegans is observed experimentally, so yes, we think the result contraintuitive.

      L 116: "fully heterogeneous cylinder" What is this?

      It means that the C. elegans embryo does not have the same elastic properties in different parts (or layers).

      L 129: "will collaborate to facilitate further elongation" To facilitate or to drive? If the former, what drives elongation?

      Contraction of muscles and actin bundles together drive elongation

      Ll 141: "the deformation in each section can be quantified since the circular geometry is lost with the contractions" The deformation could also be quantified if the sections remained circular, right?

      Yes. However, circularity is lost during each bending event.

      Ll 151: "we need to evaluate the influence of the C. elegans actin network during the early elongation before studying the deformation at the late stage. So, the deformation gradient can be decomposed into: (...) where (...) is the muscle-actomyosin supplementary active strain in the late period" I thought you were now studying the early stage?

      In this part, we are outlining how we can study the whole elongation (early and late), not just the early elongation stage. To evaluate the deformation induced by the first contraction of the muscles, we need to know the state of stress of the worm prior to this event, so we also need to recover the early period using the same formalism for the same structure.

      L 160: "When considering a filamentary structure with different fiber directions" Which filamentary structure are you talking about?

      Fig.3 B shows this model and the filamentary structure, which contains the actin and muscle fibers.

      Ll 174: "When the cylinder involves several layers with different shear modulus 𝜇 and different active strains, the integral over 𝑆 covers each layer" I do not understand this sentence. Also, you should probably write 'moduli' instead of modulus.

      This implies that when integrating over the whole cross-section S, we need to take into account each layer independently with its own shear modulus and sum the results.

      L 176: "weakness of 𝜀" Do you mean \epsilon << 1?

      Yes

      Ll 178: "Given that the Euler-Lagrange equations and the boundary conditions are satisfied at each order, we can obtain solutions for the elastic strains at zero order 𝐚(𝟎) and at first order 𝐚(𝟏)." Are you thinking about different orders in an \epsilon expansion or the early and the late stages of elongation?

      Answers: Different orders are considered only for the late elongation study, the early elongation is treated exactly so do not need a correction in \epsilon.

      L 197: "fracture ablation" Please, define.

      This is an experiment in which a laser is used to make a cut in a small-scale object of study and then the internal stresses are obtained based on the morphology of the cut, please see the Ref ‘Assessing the contribution of active and passive stresses in C. elegans elongation’. We have added this definition in line 200.

      Ll 203: What motivated your choice of notations for the radii R_2'? The inner part of the cylinder is fluid? But above you wrote about a solid cylinder. Why should the inner part be compressible?

      (1) We need to define the location of actin cables, which concentrate at the outer periphery.

      (2) Our model is a hollow cylinder, and the inner part of the cylinder contains internal organs, tissues, fluids, and so on, so we consider it to be a compressible extremely soft material (Line 213).

      Ll 212: "𝑟(𝑅) is the radius after early elongation." And during?

      R is variable, r(R) depends on R but also on time t, it represents the radius of C. elegans embryos after the onset of elongation, i.e., after acto-myosin and muscle activities begin.

      L 232: \tau_p is probably t_p?

      Yes.

      L 240: "quite simultaneously" Please, be precise.

      In practice, it is difficult to define the concept of simultaneous occurrence unless there is rigorous experimental data to show it, but all we can get in the Ref ‘Remodelage des jonctions sous stress mécanique’, is that it occurs almost simultaneously, which we define as quite simultaneously.

      Ll 246: "a short period" What does short mean? Why is it relevant?

      From the experimental observations and data, we know that each contraction occurs very rapidly: a few seconds so we define a short period for one contraction.

      L 263: "the bending of the model will be increased" Is it really the model that is bent?

      Yes, the bending deformation predicted by the model, we have revised in line 266.

      Ll 265: "we observed a consistent torsional deformation (Fig.6(E)) that agrees with the patterns seen in the video" In which sense do these configurations agree? I do not see any similarity between panels D and E.

      Both show a torsion deformation.

      L 267: "torsion as the default of symmetry of the muscle axis" I do not understand.

      We discuss two cases in this research, one where the muscle follows the axis of the C. elegans in the initial configuration, and the other where the muscle has a slight angle of deflection, and we have added more information in the manuscript (line 270).

      Ll 274: "Each contraction of a pair increases the energy of the system under investigation, which is then rapidly released to the body." Do you mean the elastic energy stored in the epidermis and central part of the embryo?

      Yes, the whole body.

      Ll 284: "The activation of actin fibers 𝑔𝑎1 after muscle relaxation can be calculated and determined by our model." Have you done it?

      Yes, we can obtain the value of g_a1, and then calculate the elongation.

      Ll 286 I do not understand, why you write about mutants at this place. Am I supposed to have already understood the basic mechanism of elongation? Why do you now write about the first stage?

      I would like to show our formalism can model wild-type and mutant C.elegans, and the comparison results are good.

      L 302: "The result is significantly higher than our actual size 210𝜇𝑚." How was significance assessed? Your actual size is probably more than 210µm.

      Here, we have considered two situations, one is that the accumulated energy is totally applied to the elongation so that the length will be much larger than the experimental result of 210 µm, the length value that we have obtained by calculation. In the other case, we have considered the energy dissipation, which leads to 210 µm.

      L 433: "where 𝜆 is the axial extension due to the pre-strained" Maybe ""where 𝜆 is the axial extension due to the pre-stress".

      In our manuscript, we define the pre-strain, not the pre-stress.

      L 438: "active filamentary tensor" Please, define.

      Active filamentary tensor defines the tensor representing the activities of a cylindrical model composed of different orientations fibers.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment

      This study presents valuable findings on the roles of the axon growth regulator Sema7a in the formation of peripheral sensory circuits in the lateral line system of zebrafish. The evidence supporting the claims of the authors is solid, although further work directly testing the roles of different sema7a isoforms would strengthen the analysis. The work will be of interest to developmental neuroscientists studying circuit formation.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      In this work, Dasguta et al. have dissected the role of Sema7a in fine tuning of a sensory microcircuit in the posterior lateral line organ of zebrafish. They attempt to also outline the different roles of a secreted verses membrane-bound form of Sema7a in this process. Using genetic perturbations and axonal network analysis, the authors show that loss of both Sema7a isoforms causes abnormal axon terminal structure with more bare terminals and fewer loops in contact with presynaptic sensory hair cells. Further, they show that loss of Sema7a causes decreased number and size of both the pre- and post-synapse. Finally, they show that overexpression of the secreted form of Sema7a specifically can elicit axon terminal outgrowth to an ectopic Sema7a expressing cell. Together, the analysis of Sema7a loss of function and overexpression on axon arbor structure is fairly thorough and revealed a novel role for Sema7a in axon terminal structure. However, the connection between different isoforms of Sema7a and the axon arborization needs to be substantiated. Furthermore, an autocrine role for Sema7a on the presynaptic cell is not ruled out as a contributing factor to the synaptic and axon structure phenotypes.

      Finally, critical controls are absent from the overexpression paradigm.

      Comments: Thank you for your valuable comments. We have analyzed the hair cell scRNA transcriptome data of zebrafish neuromasts from published works and have not identified known expression of receptors of the Sema7A protein, particularly PlexinC1 and Integrin β1 molecules (reference 4 and 15) in hair cells. This result suggests that the Sema7A protein molecule, either secreted or membrane-bound, does not possess its cognate receptor to elicit an autocrine function on the hair cells. Moreover, the GPI-anchored Sema7A lacks a cytosolic domain. So it is unlikely that Sema7A signaling directly induces the formation of presynaptic ribbons. We propose that the decrease in average number and area of synaptic aggregates likely reflects decreased stability of the synaptic structures owing to lack of contact between the sensory axons and the hair cells, which has been identified in zebrafish neuromasts (reference 38).

      Thank you for pointing missing critical control experiments. Additional control experiments (lines 333-346) with a new figure (Figure 5) have been added.

      These issues weaken the claims made by the authors including the statement that they have identified differential roles for the GPI-anchored verses secreted forms of Sema7a on synapse formation and as a chemoattractant for axon arborization respectively.

      Comments: We have rephrased our statement and argue in lines 428-430 that our experiments “suggest a potential mechanism for hair cell innervation in which a local Sema7Asec diffusive cue likely consolidates the sensory arbors at the hair cell cluster and the membrane-anchored Sema7A-GPI molecule guides microcircuit topology and synapse assembly.”

      The manuscript itself would benefit from the inclusion of details in the text to help the reader interpret the figures, tools, data, and analysis.

      Comments: We have made significant revisions to the text and figures to improve clarity and consistency of the manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      In this work, Dasgupta et al. investigates the role of Sema7a in the formation of peripheral sensory circuit in the lateral line system of zebrafish. They show that Sema7a protein is present during neuromast maturation and localized, in part, to the base of hair cells (HCs). This would be consistent with pre-synaptic Sema7a mediating formation and/or stabilization of the synapse. They use sema7a loss-of-function strain to show that lateral line sensory terminals display abnormal arborization. They provide highly quantitative analysis of the lateral line terminal arborization to show that a number of specific topological parameters are affected in mutants. Next, they ectopically express a secreted form of Sema7a to show that lateral line terminals can be ectopically attracted to the source. Finally, they also demonstrate that the synaptic assembly is impaired in the sema7a mutant. Overall, the data are of high quality and properly controlled. The availability of Sema7a antibody is a big plus, as it allows to address the endogenous protein localization as well to show the signal absence in the sema7a mutant. The quantification of the arbor topology should be useful to people in the field who are looking at the lateral line as well as other axonal terminals. I think some results are overinterpreted though. The authors state: "Our findings demonstrate that Sema7A functions both as a juxtracrine and as a secreted cue to pattern neural circuitry during sensory organ development." However, they have not actually demonstrated which isoform functions in HCs (also see comments below).

      Comments: Thank you for making this point. To investigate the presence of both sema7a transcripts in the hair cells of the lateral-line neuromasts, we used the Tg(myo6b:actb1EGFP) transgenic fish to capture the labeled hair cells by fluorescence-activated cell sorting (FACS) and isolated total RNA. Using transcript specific DNA oligonucleotide primers, we have identified the presence of both sema7a transcript variants in the hair cell of the neuromast. Even though we have not developed transcript specific knockout animals, we speculate that the presence of both transcript variants in the hair cell implies that they function in distinct fashion. We have changed our interpretation in lines 32-34 to “Our findings propose that Sema7A likely functions both as a juxtracrine and as a secreted cue to pattern neural circuitry during sensory organ development.”

      In future we will utilize the CRISPR/Cas9 technique to target the unique C-terminal domain of the GPI-anchored sema7a transcript variant. We believe that this will only perturb the formation of the full-length Sema7A protein and help us determine the role of the membrane-bound Sema7AGPI molecule as well as the Sema7Asec in sensory arborization and synaptic assembly.

      In addition, they have to be careful in interpreting their topology analysis, as they cannot separate individual axons. Thus, such analysis can generate artifacts. They can perform additional experiments to address these issues or adjust their interpretations.

      Comments: Thank you for this insightful comment. In a previous eLife publication from our laboratory, we utilized the serial blockface scanning electron micrograph (SBFSEM) technique to characterize the connectome of the neuromast microcircuit where patterns of innervation of all the individual axons can be delineated in five-days-old larvae (reference 8). However, the collective behavior of all the sensory axons that build the innervation network remained enigmatic, especially in a living animal during development. In this paper we addressed how the sensory-axon collective behaves around the clustered hair cells and build the innervation network in living animals during diverse developmental stages. Our analyses have not only identified how the axons associates with the hair cell cluster as the organ matures, but also discovered distinct topological features in the arbor network that emerges during organ maturation, which may influence assembly of postsynaptic aggregates (lines 384-403, Figure 6G-I). We believe that our quantitative approach to capture collective axonal behaviors and their topological attributes during circuit formation have highlighted the importance of understanding network assembly during sensory organ development.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This study demonstrates that the axon guidance molecule Sema7a patterns the innervation of hair cells in the neuromasts of the zebrafish lateral line, as revealed by quantifying gain- and loss-of function effects on the three-dimensional topology of sensory axon arbors over developmental time. Alternative splicing can produce either a diffusible or membrane-bound form of Sema7a, which is increasingly localized to the basolateral pole of hair cells as they develop (Figure 1). In sema7a mutant zebrafish, sensory axon arbors still grow to the neuromast, but they do not form the same arborization patterns as in controls, with many arbors overextending, curving less, and forming fewer loops even as they lengthen (Figure 2,3). These phenotypes only become significant later in development, indicating that Sema7a functions to pattern local microcircuitry, not the gross wiring pattern. Further, upon ectopic expression of the diffusible form of Sema7a, sensory axons grow towards the Sema7a source (Figure 4). The data also show changes in the synapses that form when mutant terminals contact hair cells, evidenced by significantly smaller pre- and post-synaptic punctae (Figure 5). Finally, by replotting single cell RNA-sequencing data (Figure 6), the authors show that several other potential cues are also produced by hair cells and might explain why the sema7a phenotype does not reflect a change in growth towards the neuromast. In summary, the data strongly indicate that Sema7a plays a role in shaping connectivity within the neuromast.

      Strengths:

      The main strength of this study is the sophisticated analysis that was used to demonstrate fine-level effects on connectivity. Rather than asking "did the axon reach its target?", the authors asked "how does the axon behave within the target?". This type of deep analysis is much more powerful than what is typical for the field and should be done more often. The breadth of analysis is also impressive, in that axon arborization patterns and synaptic connectivity were examined at 3 stages of development and in three-dimensions.

      Weaknesses:

      The main weakness is that the data do not cleanly distinguish between activities for the secreted and membrane-bound forms of Sema7a, which the authors speculate may influence axon growth and synapse formation respectively. The authors do not overstate the claims, but it would have been nice to see some additional experimentation along these lines, such as the effects of overexpressing the membrane-bound form,

      Comments: We have accepted this useful suggestion. In lines 333-346 and in Figure 5 we have demonstrated the impact of overexpressing the membrane-bound transcript variant on arborization pattern of the sensory axons.

      Some analysis of the distance over which the "diffusible" form of Sema7a might act (many secreted ligands are not in fact all that diffusible), or

      Comments: We have reported this in lines 311-317 and in Figure 4F,G.

      Some live-imaging of axons before they reach the target (predicted to be the same in control and mutants) and then within the target (predicted to be different).

      Comments: We have accepted this useful suggestion. We demonstrate the dynamics of the sensory arbors that are attracted to an ectopic Sema7Asec source in lines 325-332, Figure 4I,J; Figure 4—figure supplement 2A, and Videos 13-16.

      Clearly, although the gain-of-function studies show that Sema7a can act at a distance, other cues are sufficient. Although the lack of a phenotype could be due to compensation, it is also possible that Sema7a does not actually act in a diffusible manner within its natural context. Overall, the data support the authors' carefully worded conclusions. While certain ideas are put forward as possibilities, the authors recognize that more work is needed. The main shortcoming is that the study does not actually distinguish between the effects of the two forms of Sema7a, which are predicted but not actually shown to be either diffusible or membrane linked (the membrane linkage can be cleaved). Although the study starts by presenting the splice forms, there is no description of when and where each splice form is transcribed.

      Comments: We have utilized the HCR™ RNA-FISH Technology to generate transcript specific probes. To generate transcript-specific HCR probes to distinctly detect the sema7aGPI (NM_001328508) and the sema7asec (NM_001114885) transcripts, Molecular Instruments could design only 11 probes against the sema7aGPI transcript and only one probe against the sema7asec transcript (personal correspondence with Mike Liu, PhD, Head of Operations and Product Development Lead Molecular Instruments, Inc.). The HCR probe against the sema7aGPI transcript showed a very faint signal. Unfortunately, the HCR probe against the sema7asec transcript failed to detect the presence of any transcript. For robust detection of transcripts, the protocol demands a minimum of 20 probes. We believe that the very low number of probes against our transcripts is the primary reason for the absence of a signal.

      We therefore utilized fluorescence-activated cell sorting (FACS) to capture the labeled hair cells and isolated total RNA to perform RT-PCR using transcript specific DNA oligonucleotide primers. We identified the presence of both the secreted and the membrane-bound transcripts at four-days-old neuromasts (lines 80-84, Figure 1B-D).

      Additionally, since the mutants are predicted to disrupt both forms, it is a bit difficult to disentangle the synaptic phenotype from the earlier changes in circuit topology - perhaps the change at the level of the synapse is secondary to the change in topology.

      Comments: Thank you for the insightful suggestion. We have analyzed the relationship between the sensory arbor network topology and the distribution of postsynaptic structures (lines 384-403, Figure 6G-I). We identified that the distribution of the postsynaptic aggregates is closely associated with the topological attributes of the sensory circuit. We further clarify the potential origin of disrupted synaptic assemblies in sema7a-/- mutants in lines 380-382 and lines 417-420.

      Further, the authors do not provide any data supporting the idea that the membrane bound form of Sema7a acts only locally. Without these kinds of data, the authors are unable to attribute activities to either form.

      Comments: We have accepted this useful suggestion and have prepared the Figure 5 with the necessary details.

      The main impact on the field will be the nature of the analysis. The field of axon guidance benefits from this kind of robust quantification of growing axon trajectories, versus their ability to actually reach a target. This study highlights the value of more careful analysis and as a result, makes the point that circuit assembly is not just a matter of painting out paths using chemoattractants and repellants, but is also about how axons respond to local cues. The study also points to the likely importance of alternative splice forms and to the complex functions that can be achieved using different forms of the same ligand.

      Reviewer #4 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The work by Dasgupta et al identifies Sema7a as a novel guidance molecule in hair cell sensory systems. The authors use the both genetic and imaging power of the zebrafish lateralline system for their research. Based on expression data and immunohistochemistry experiments, the authors demonstrate that Sema7a is present in lateral line hair cells. The authors then examine a sema7a mutant. In this mutant, Sema7a proteins levels are nearly eliminated. Importantly, the authors show that when Sema7a is absent, afferent terminals show aberrant projections and fewer contacts with hair cells. Lastly the authors show that ectopic expression of the secreted form of Sema7a is sufficient to recruit aberrant terminals to non-hair cell targets. The sema7a innervation defects are well quantified. Overall, the paper is extremely well written and easy to follow.

      Strengths:

      (1) The axon guidance phenotypes in sema7a mutants are novel, striking and thoroughly quantified.

      (2) By combining both loss of function sema7a mutants and ectopic expression of the secreted form of Sema7a the authors demonstrate the Sema7a is both necessary and sufficient to guide sensory axons

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Control. There should be an uninjected heatshock control to ensure that heatshock itself does not cause sensory afferents to form aberrant arbors. This control would help support the hypothesis that exogenously expressed Sema7a (via a heatshock driven promoter) is sufficient to attract afferent arbors.

      Comments: Thank you for the suggestion. We have added the uninjected heatshock control experiment in Figure 5 and described experimental details in the text, lines 343-345.

      (2) Synapse labeling. The numbers obtained for postsynaptic labeling in controls do not match up with the published literature - they are quite low. Although there are clear differences in postsynaptic counts between sema7a mutants and controls, it is worrying that the numbers are so low in controls. In addition, the authors do not stain for complete synapses (pre- and post-synapses together). This staining is critical to understand how Sema7a impacts synapse formation.

      Comments: Thank you for raising this issue. We believe the low average numbers of the postsynaptic punctae in control neuromasts arise from lack of formation of postsynaptic aggregates beneath the immature hair cells, which are abundant in early stages of neuromast maturation. We have performed exhaustive analysis on the formation of pre- and postsynaptic structures and have identified how their distribution changes along neuromast development in control larvae. We have further analyzed how such distribution is perturbed in the sema7a-/- mutants. We do not think analyzing the complete synapse structure will add much to our understanding of how Sema7A influence synapse formation and maintenance.

      (3) Hair cell counts. The authors need to provide quantification of hair cell counts per neuromast in mutant and control animals. If the counts are different, certain quantification may need to be normalized.

      Comments: We have added the raw data with the hair cell counts in both control and sema7a-/- mutants across developmental stages. The homozygous sema7a-/- mutants have slightly less hair cells and we have normalized all our topological analyses by the corresponding hair cell numbers for each neuromast in each experiment (lines 669-675).

      (4) Developmental delay. It is possible that loss of Sema7a simply delays development. The latest stage examined was 4 dpf, an age that is not quite mature in control animals. The authors could look at a later age, such as 6 dpf to see if the phenotypes persist or recover.

      Comments: The homozygous sema7a-/- mutants are unviable and die at 6 dpf. We therefore restricted our analysis till 4 dpf. The association of the sensory arbors with the clustered hair cells gradually decreases as the neuromasts mature from 2 dpf to 4dpf in the sema7a-/- mutants (lines 174-176, Figure 2I). Moreover, in the sema7a-/- mutants the sensory axons throw long projections that keep getting farther away from the clustered hair cells as the neuromast matures from 2 dpf to 4 dpf (lines 166-168, Figure 2H; Figure 2—figure supplement 1K,L). These observations suggest that if the phenotypes in the sema7a-/- mutants were due to developmental delays, then we should have seen a recovery of disrupted arborization patterns over time. But instead, we observe a further deterioration of the arborization patterns and other architectural assemblies. These findings confirm that the observed phenotypes in the sema7a-/- mutants are not due to delayed development of the larvae, but a specific outcome for the loss of Sema7A protein.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Major concerns:

      Issue 1: One of the most interesting conclusions in this manuscript is the function of the GPIanchored vs. secreted form of Sema7a in axon structure and synapse formation. In lines 357360 of the discussion (for example) the authors state that they have shown that the GPIanchored form of Sema7a is responsible for contact-mediated synapse formation while the secreted form functions as a chemoattractant for axon arbor structure. "We have discovered dual modes of Sema7A function in vivo: the chemoattractive diffusible form is sufficient to guide the sensory arbors toward their target, whereas the membrane-attached form likely participates in sculpting accurate neural circuitry to facilitate contact-mediated formation and maintenance of synapses." However, the data do not support this conclusion. Specifically, no analysis is done showing unique expression of either isoform in hair cells and no functional analysis is done to conclusively determine which isoform is important for either phenotype.

      Comments: We have shown that both sema7a transcripts are expressed in the hair cells of four-day-old neuromasts (lines 78-84, Figure 1C,D). Ectopic expression of the sema7asec transcript variant robustly attracts the lateral-line sensory arbors toward itself, whereas ectopic expression of the sema7aGPI variant fails to impart sensory guidance from a distance, suggesting that the membrane-bound form likely participates in contact-mediated neural guidance. These experiments decisively show, for the first time in zebrafish, the dual modes of Sema7A function in vivo. However, we agree that the sema7aGPI transcript-specific knockout animal would be essential to conclusively prove that the membrane-attached form is primarily involved in forming accurate neural circuitry and contact-mediated formation and maintenance of synapses. Hence, we have very carefully stated in lines 427-428 that “the membrane-attached form likely participates in sculpting accurate neural circuitry to facilitate contact-mediated formation and maintenance of synapses”. We will follow up on this suggestion in our upcoming manuscript that will incorporate transcript-specific genetic ablations.

      Though the authors present RT-PCR analysis of sema7a isoforms, it is not interpretable. The second reverse primer will also recognize the full-length transcript (from what I can gather) so it does not simply show the presence of the secreted form. Is there a unique 3'UTR for the short transcript that can be used? Additionally, for the GPI-anchored version can you use a forward primer that is not present in the short isoform? This would shed some light on the respective levels of both transcripts.

      Comments: The C-termini of the two transcript variants are distinct and we have designed distinct primers that will selectively bind to each transcript (lines 503-511). Since, we have not performed quantitative polymerase chain reaction (qPCR), relative levels of each transcript are hard to determine.

      Alternatively, and perhaps of more use, in situ hybridization using unique probes for each isoform would allow you to determine which are actually present in hair cells.

      Comments: We have tried this approach and explained the point earlier (refer to lines 203212 of this response letter).

      To decisively state that these isoforms have unique functions in axon terminal structure and synapse formation, other experiments are also essential. For example, RNA-mediated rescue analyses using both isoforms would tell you which can rescue the axonal structure and synapse size/number phenotypes. Overexpression of the GPI-anchored form, like the secreted form in Figure 4, would allow you to determine if only the secreted form can cause abnormal axon extension phenotypes. Expression of both forms in hair cells (using a myo6b promotor for example) would allow assessment of their role in presynapse formation.

      Comments: We have ectopically expressed the sema7aGPI transcript variant near the sensory arbor network and observed that Sema7A-GPI fails to impart sensory axon guidance from a distance.

      Thank you for suggesting the rescue experiments. We are in the process of generating CRISPR/Cas9-mediated transcript-specific knockout animals. We are currently preparing another manuscript that incorporates the above-mentioned rescue experiments to dissect the role of each transcript in regulating arbor topology and synapse formation.

      For the overexpression experiments, expression of mKate alone (with and without heat shock) is also a critical control to include.

      Comments: We have incorporated two control experiments: (1) larvae injected with hsp70:sema7asec-mKate2 plasmid that were not heat shocked and (2) Uninjected larvae that were heatshocked. We think these two controls are sufficient to demonstrate that the abnormal arborization patterns are not artifacts generated due to plasmid injection and heatshocking.

      Issue 2: A second concern is the lack of data showing support cell and hair cell formation and function is unaffected. Analysis of support and hair cell number with loss of Sema7a as well as simple analyses of mechanotransduction (FM4-64) would help alleviate concerns that phenotypes are due to disrupted neuromast formation and basic hair cell function rather than a specific role for Sema7a in this process.

      Comments: We have measured the hair cell numbers in both control and sema7a-/- mutants across developmental stages. We have added this to our submitted raw data.

      We have utilized the styryl fluorophore FM4-64 to test the mechanotransduction function of the hair cells in sema7a-/- mutants. We have detailed our finding in lines 137141 and in Figure 2—figure supplement 1C,D.

      Expression analysis of Sema7a receptors would also help strengthen the argument for a specific effect on lateral line afferent axons.

      Comments: Thank you for this suggestion. Currently, we do not possess an RNA transcriptome dataset for the lateral line ganglion. This deficit limits a systematic screen for lateral-line sensory neuronal gene expressions either through antibody stains or via HCRmediated in situ techniques. In future we plan to develop an RNA transcriptome for the lateral-line ganglion and identify potential binding partners for Sema7A.

      Issue 3: The manuscript could also be improved to include more detail in some areas and less in others. In general, each section has a fairly long lead up but lacks important experimental details that would help the reader interpret the data. For example:

      Figure 1: What is the label for the lateral line axons? Is it a specific transgenic? The legend states that 3 asterisks indicate p<0.0001. What about the other asterisk combinations?

      Comments: We have clarified these issues in lines 118-121 and in lines 906-907.

      Figure 2: For the network analysis, are the traces for all axons that branch to innervate the neuromast?

      Comments: Yes, we have traced the entire arbor containing all the axons that branched from the lateral line nerve and extended toward the clustered hair cells. The three-dimensional traces depict a skeletonized representation of the arbor network.

      Can the tracing method distinguish individual axons?

      Comments: No, our goal is to understand how the axon-collective behave around the clustered hair cells during development.

      How do you know where an end is versus continued looping?

      Comments: We have categorically defined the topological attributes in lines 187-191 and in Figure 3A.

      Also, are all neuromasts similarly affected or is there a divergence based on which organ you are imaging? What neuromast was imaged in this and other figures?

      Comments: Yes, all the neuromasts in the trunk and tail regions were affected similarly by the sema7a mutation. We did not observe any region-specific phenotypic outcome. We consistently imaged the trunk neuromasts, particularly the second, third, and fourth neuromasts.

      Discussion: The short discussion failed to put these findings into context or to discuss how this unique topological arrangement of axon terminals impacts function.

      Comments: We have added a new segment, lines 432-448, in the discussion section which mentions the potential role of the topological features in arranging the distribution pattern of the postsynaptic densities and thereby potentially influencing the network’s ability to gather sensory inputs through properly placed postsynaptic aggregates.

      Can you speculate on how the looping structure may alter number of synaptic contacts per axon for instance? For this, it would be useful to know if normally the synapses form on loops versus bare terminals.

      Comments: Thank you for this insightful suggestion. We have performed detailed analysis, as mentioned in lines 384-397, to characterize the distribution of the postsynaptic densities between the two topological attributes.

      Does this looping facilitate single axons contacting more hair cells of the same polarity? Would that be beneficial?

      Comments: Looping behaviors indeed facilitate the contact between the axons and the hair cells. As we have observed, the primary topological attribute that the sensory arbor network underneath the clustered hair cells adopts is a loop. The bare terminals are predominantly projected transverse to the clustered hair cells and lack contact with them. Whether a single axon, being part of a loop, preferentially contacts hair cells of same polarity is yet to be determined. We can address this question by mosaic labeling a single axon in the arbor network and determine its association with the hair cells. We intend to do these experiments in our upcoming manuscript.

      Minor concerns:

      (1) For the stacked charts quantifying topological features, I found interpreting them challenging. Is it possible to put these into overlapping histograms or line graphs to better compare wild type to mutant directly?

      Comments: Thank you for your suggestion. We tried several ways to represent our data and found that the stacked charts optimally signify our analysis and depict the characteristic phenological differences between the control and the sema7a-/- mutants.

      (2) There are numerous strong statements throughout not directly supported by the data, e.g. lines 110-113; 206-208; 357-360 and others. These should be tempered.

      Comments: For lines 110-113, we have updated this section with new experiments and the new segment is represented in lines 115-126.

      For lines 206-208, we have updated the statement to “This result suggests that the stereotypical circuit topology observed in the mature organ may emerge through transition of individual arbors from forming bare terminals to forming closed loops encircling topological holes” in lines 225-227.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The authors should be careful about making any assumptions which form of sema7a is active in NMs. Their RT-PCR demonstrates presence of both isoforms in a whole animal; however, whether they are similarly present in HCs is not investigated here.

      Comments: We have addressed this concern and have updated the manuscript with new experiments, detailed in lines 78-84.

      Also, there is an issue of translation and trafficking to the membrane with subsequent secretion. An important experiment that would address this question is expressing two sema7a isoforms in mutant HCs and asking whether this can suppress the mutant phenotype.

      Comments: Thank you for suggesting the rescue experiments. We are in the process of generating CRISPR/Cas9-mediated transcript-specific knockout animals. We are currently preparing another manuscript that incorporates the above-mentioned rescue experiments to dissect the role of each transcript in regulating arbor topology and synapse formation.

      Presumably, sema7a is trafficked to the membrane during HC maturation. This is consistent with the authors' observation that sema7a localization is changing as NM mature. However, actin-sema7a co-labeling does not actually show whether sema7a is on the membrane. Labeling HCs with a membrane marker (transgene) would be much more convincing. Alternatively, can the authors show sema7a localization actually correlates with the presence of sensory axon terminals? They already have immunos that label both. Thus, this should be pretty straightforward.

      Comments: Thank you for these suggestions. We have addressed these issues in lines 112114, and in lines 119-126.

      Figure 2 should have a control panel, so the reduced sema7a staining can be compared to the control side-by-side.

      Comments: We have depicted Sema7A staining in control neuromasts in multiple images, including Figure 1E, Figure 1H, and in Figure 2—figure supplement 1B. We have kept the control panel in the supplementary figure due to space restrictions in Figure 2.

      Arborization topology: While I appreciate the very careful characterization of the topology for wild-type and mutant NMs, I think it would be much more informative to mark individual axons and then analyze their topology. The main reason is that the authors cannot really distinguish whether some aspects of topology they describe are really due to the densely packed overlapping terminals of multiple axons or these are really characteristic, higher order organization of individual axons. Because of this, they cannot be certain what is really happening with sema7a mutant terminals. Related to the point above. While it is clear that the overall topology is abnormal in the mutant, the authors should be careful in concluding that sema7a regulates specific aspects of it. The overall structure is probably highly interconnected perturbing one parameter would likely affect all the others.

      Comments: Thank you for this comment. In a previous eLife publication from our laboratory, we utilized the serial blockface scanning electron micrograph (SBFSEM) technique to characterize the connectome of the neuromast microcircuit where patterns of innervation of all the individual axons can be delineated in five-days-old larvae (reference number 8). However, the collective behavior of all the sensory axons that build the innervation network remained enigmatic, especially in a living animal during development. In this paper we addressed how the sensory axon-collective behave around the clustered hair cells and build the innervation network in living animals during diverse developmental stages. Our analyses have not only identified how the axon-collective associates itself with the hair cell cluster as the organ matures, but also discovered distinct topological features in the arbor network that emerges during organ maturation, which may influence assembly of postsynaptic aggregates (lines 384-403, Figure 6G-I). We believe that our quantitative approach to capture collective axonal behaviors and their topological attributes during circuit formation have highlighted the importance of understanding network assembly during sensory organ development.

      Experiments with the secreted sema7a isoform would be much more informative if they were compared/contrasted to the GPI anchored isoform.

      Comments: We added a new section, lines 338-351, and a new Figure 5 to address this issue.

      The phenotype of ectopic projections in sema7a overexpression experiments is pretty dramatic, especially given the fact that these were performed in wild-type animals. Does this mean that the phenotype would be even more dramatic in sema7a mutants, as they have more bare axon terminals according to the authors' analysis. Have the authors attempted this type of experiments?

      Comments: That is an interesting suggestion. We have not tested that yet. Our guess is that in the sema7a-/- mutants, the abundant bare terminals will be far more sensitive to an ectopic source of Sema7A. But even in the sema7a-/- mutants, other chemotropic cues are still functional, which may impart certain restrictions on how many bare terminals are allowed to leave the neuromast region.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) No raw data are shown, such that it is difficult to assess variability across animals or within animals, just the overall trends within the whole dataset. Raw data need to be shown for every measurement, at least in supplemental figures. It would also be useful to reliably show control next to mutant in the same plot, as it is a bit hard to compare across panels, which occurs in several figures.

      Comments: We have uploaded all the raw data related to each experiment.

      (2) Given the focus on the two possible forms of Sema7a, the authors should use HCR or another form of reliable in situ hybridization to show the spatiotemporal pattern of expression of each isoform.

      Comments: We have utilized the HCR™ RNA-FISH Technology to generate transcript specific probes. To generate transcript-specific HCR probes to distinctly detect the sema7aGPI (NM_001328508) and the sema7asec (NM_001114885) transcripts, Molecular Instruments could design only 11 probes against the sema7aGPI transcript and only one probe against the sema7asec transcript (personal correspondence with Mike Liu, PhD, Head of Operations and Product Development Lead Molecular Instruments, Inc.). The HCR probe against the sema7aGPI transcript showed a very faint signal. Unfortunately, the HCR probe against the sema7asec transcript failed to detect the presence of any transcript. For robust detection of transcripts, the protocol demands a minimum of 20 probes. We believe that the very low number of probes against our transcripts is the primary reason for the lack of a signal.

      (3) The authors should explain the criteria used to select the 22 embryos used to analyze the effects of expressing diffusible Sema7a.

      Comments: We have explained this in lines 291-292. We identified 22 mosaic sema7asecmKate2 integration events, in which a single mosaic ectopic integration had occurred near the network of sensory arbors, from a total of almost 100 integrations. We rejected events where the sema7asec-mKate2 integration occurred either farther away from the sensory arbor network or had happened in multiple neighboring cells.

      (4) Although arbors were imaged in live embryos, time is never presented as a variable, so I cannot tell whether axon topology was changing as the images were collected. This needs to be clarified.

      Comments: We imaged the trunk neuromasts of both control and sema7a-/- mutant live zebrsfish larvae at 2, 3, and 4 dpf. We imaged the control and the sema7a-/- mutants of each developmental stage in parallel, within a span of two hours, and repeated these experiments multiple times to gather almost a hundred larvae from each genotype. Even though the sensory arbor network is dynamic, we believe imaging both the genotypes in parallel and within a span of two hours, and averaging almost a hundred larvae from each genotype minimize the temporal variability observed in the arbor architecture.

      (5) Ideally, the authors should use CRISPR/cas-9 to create a mutation in the C-terminus that would prevent production of the GPI-anchored form and not of the diffusible form. I understand if this is too much work to do in a short time, and would be satisfied with another experiment that could distinguish roles for at least one isoform more clearly. For instance, it would be interesting to see an analysis of how far an axon can be from a source to detect diffusible Sema7a (live imaging would be ideal for this) and then to show that the effect is different when the membrane bound form is expressed.

      Comments: Thank you for this comment. We are currently working in generating transcript specific knockout animals.

      We have added live timelapse video microscopy data in lines 330-337, Figure 4H-J, Figure 4—figure supplement 2, Video15,16.

      We have added a new segment analyzing the membrane-bound transcript variant in lines 338-351.

      Reviewer #4 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Feedback to authors

      Overall, this is a very important and novel study. Currently the manuscript does need revision.

      Major concerns:

      (1) Controls. For the ectoptic expression of Sema7a, injection of a construct expressing Sema7a under a heatshock promoter is used to drive ectopic expression. No heatshock (injected) animal are used as a control. In many systems heatshock can impact neuron morphology. And heatshock proteins are required for normal neurite and synapse formation. Please examine sensory axons in uninjected wildtype animals with heatshock.

      Comments: We have added this control experiment in a new segment, explained in detail in lines 348-350 and Figure 5.

      (2) Synapse staining - regarding Figure 5 and related supplement

      Understanding whether guidance defects ultimately impact synapse formation is an important aspect of this paper. Therefore, is necessary to have accurate measurements of the number of complete synapses, and the overall numbers of pre- and postsynaptic components. Currently the data plotted in Figure 5 is extensive, but the way the data is laid out, the relevant comparisons are challenging to make. Perhaps include this quantification in the supplement, and move the data from the supplement to the main figure? The quantifications in the supplement are easier to follow and easier to compare between genotypes.

      Comments: We have performed exhaustive analysis on the formation of pre- and postsynaptic structures and have identified how their distribution changes along neuromast development in control larvae. We have further analyzed how such distribution is perturbed in the sema7a-/- mutants. We believe that showing only the average numbers will not reveal the changes in the distribution of the synaptic structures during development and across genotypes.

      Looking at the data itself, there seems to be some discrepancies with the synaptic counts compared to published work. While the CTBP numbers seem in order, the Maguk numbers do not. In both mutant and control there are many hair cells without any Maguk puncta/aggregates-leading to 0.75-1 postsynapses per hair cell (Figure 5 supplement H-I). Typically, the numbers should be more comparable to what was obtained for CTBP, 3-4 puncta per cells (Figure 5 supplement B-C), especially by 3-4 dpf. 3-4 CTPB or Maguk puncta per cell is based on previously published immunostaining and EM work.

      The Maguk immunostaining, especially at early stages (2-3 dpf) is challenging. To compound a challenging immunostain, around 2019 Neuromab began to outsource the purification of their Maguk antibody. After this outsourcing our lab was no longer able to get reliable label with the Maguk antibody from Neuromab.

      Millipore sells the same monoclonal antibody and it works well: https://www.emdmillipore.com/US/en/product/Anti-pan-MAGUK-Antibody-clone-K2886,MM_NF-MABN72

      I would recommend this source.

      Comments: Thank you for suggesting the new MAGUK antibody. We have utilized this new MAGUK antibody from Millipore and added a new segment in lines 389-408. In future publication we will utilize this antibody to capture the postsynaptic densities in the sensory arbors.

      The discrepancies in the postsynaptic punctae number in our control larvae may arise due to the reliability of the Neuromab MAGUK antibody. We have utilized this same antibody to stain the sema7a-/- mutants and have observed a significant decrease in MAGUK punctae number and area. On grounds of keeping parity between the control and the sema7a-/- mutants, we have decided to keep our experimental results in the manuscript.

      In addition to a more accurate Maguk label, a combined pre- and post-synaptic label is essential to understand whether synapses pair properly in the sema7a mutants. This can be accomplished using subtype specific antibodies using goat anti-mouse IgG1/Maguk and goat anti-mouse IgG2a/CTBP secondaries.

      Comments: Thank you for suggesting this. We are preparing another manuscript in which we will utilize this technique along with other suggestions to tease apart the role of distinct transcript variants in regulating neural guidance and synapse formation.

      (3) Does sema7a lesion impact the number of hair cells per neuromast? If hair cell numbers are reduced several of the quantifications could be impacted.

      Comments: We have added the raw data with the hair cell counts in both control and sema7a-/- mutants across developmental stages. The homozygous sema7a-/- mutants have slightly less hair cells and we have normalized all our topological analyses by the corresponding hair cell numbers for each neuromast in each experiment (lines 669-675).

      (4) Could innervation just be developmentally delayed in sema7a mutants? At 4 dpf the sensory system is just starting to come online and could still be in the process of refinement. Did you look at slightly older ages, after the sensory system is functional behaviorally, for example, 6 dpf? Do the cores phenotypes (synapse defects and excess arbors) persist at 6 dpf in the sema7a mutants?

      Comments: The homozygous sema7a-/- mutants are unviable and start to die at 6 dpf. We therefore restricted our analysis until 4 dpf. The association of the sensory arbors with the clustered hair cells gradually decreases as the neuromasts mature from 2 dpf to 4dpf in the sema7a-/- mutants (lines 174-176, Figure 2I). Moreover, in the sema7a-/- mutants the sensory axons throw long projections that keep getting farther away from the clustered hair cells as the neuromast matures from 2 dpf to 4 dpf (lines 166-168, Figure 2H; Figure 2—figure supplement 1K,L). These observations suggests that if the phenotypes in the sema7a-/- mutants were due to developmental delays, then we should have seen a recovery of disrupted arborization patterns over time. But instead, we observe a further deterioration of the arborization patterns and other architectural assemblies. These findings confirm that the observed phenotypes in the sema7a-/- mutants are not due to delayed development of the larvae, but a specific outcome for the loss of Sema7A protein.

      Minor comments to address:

      Results

      Page 4 lines 89-91. For the readers, explain why you examined levels in Sema7a in rostral and caudal hair cells. Also, this sentence is, in general, a little bit misleading-initially reading that there is no difference in Sema7a at 1.5-4 dpf.

      Comments: In lines 44-48, we explain that the hair cells in the neuromast contain mechanoreceptive hair cells of opposing polarities that help them detect water currents from opposing directions. In lines 93-106, we tested whether the Sema7A level varies between the two polarities. We observed that the Sema7A level is similar between the two polarities of hair cells, but the average Sema7A intensity increases significantly over the developmental period of 2 dpf to 4 dpf in both rostrally and caudally polarized hair cells.

      Page 10-11 Lines 263-270. What was the frequency of these 2 outcomes- out of the 22 cases with ectopic expression?

      Comments: We have explained this in lines 291-292. We identified 22 mosaic sema7asecmKate2 integration events, in which a single mosaic ectopic integration had occurred near the network of sensory arbors, from a total of almost 100 integrations. We rejected events where the sema7asec-mKate2 integration occurred either farther away from the sensory arbor network or had happened in multiple neighboring cells.

      Discussion

      Page 14 Lines 359-360. There is not enough evidence provided in this work to suggest that the membrane attached form of Sema7a is playing a role. Both the secreted and membrane form are gone in the sema7a mutants. If the membrane attached form was specifically lesioned, and resulted in a phenotype, then there would be sufficient evidence. Currently there is strong evidence for a distinct role for the secreted form. Although the authors qualify the outlined statement with the word 'likely', stating this possibility in the discussion take-home is misleading.

      Comments: In future we will utilize the CRISPR/Cas9 technique to target the unique Cterminal domain of the GPI-anchored sema7a transcript variant. We believe that this will only perturb the formation of the full-length Sema7A protein and help us differentiate between the roles of the membrane-bound Sema7AGPI molecule and the secreted Sema7Asec in sensory arborization and synaptic assembly.

      It might be interesting in either the intro or discussion to reference the role Sema3F in axon guidance in the mouse auditory epithelium. https://elifesciences.org/articles/07830

      Comments: We have added this reference in lines 61-64.

      Figures

      Please indicate on one of your Figures where the mutation is (roughly) in the sema7a mutant (in addition to stating it in the results).

      Comments: We have added this information in Figure 2—figure supplement 1A.

      Either state or indicate in a Figure where the epitope used to make the Sema7a antibody-to show that the antibody is predicted to recognize both isoforms.

      Comments: We have stated the details of the epitope in lines 528-529.

      Figure 2-S1 what is the scale in panel A, is it different between mutant and wildtype?

      Comments: We have updated the images. New images are depicted in Figure 2—figure supplement 1A.

      Methods

      What were the methods used to quantify synapse number and area?

      Comments: We have added a new section in lines 702-708 to explain the measurement techniques.

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      Reply to the reviewers

      Reviewer #1 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      In the present manuscript, the authors analyzed diel oscillations in the brain and olfactory organs' transcriptome of Aedes aegypti and Anopheles culicifacies. The analysis of their RNAseq results showed an effect of time of day on the expression of detoxification genes involved in oxidoreductase and monooxygenase activity. Next, they investigated the effect of time of day on the olfactory sensitivity of Ae. aegypti and An. gambiae and identified the role of CYP450 in odor detection in these species using RNAi. In the last part of the study, they used RNAi to knock down the expression of one of the serine protease genes and observed a reduction in olfactory sensitivity. Overall, the experiments are well-designed and mostly robust (see comment regarding the sample size and data analysis of the EAG experiments) but do not always support the claims of the authors. For example, since no experiments were conducted under constant conditions, the circadian (i.e., driven by the internal clocks) effects are not being quantified here. In addition, knocking down the expression of a gene showing daily variations in its expression and observing an effect on olfactory sensitivity is not sufficient to show its role in the daily olfactory rhythms. Knowledge gaps are not well supported by the literature, and overstatements are made throughout the manuscript. Our detailed comments are listed below.

      We sincerely thank the reviewer for their time and consideration, and appreciate the thorough review of our manuscript. Their insightful comments have greatly enriched our work. We also apologies for instances of overinterpreting the data. Your feedback has helped us recognize areas where clarity and caution are needed, and we are committed to addressing these concerns in our revisions. Thank you for your valuable input and guidance.

      Major comments

      Introduction

      1. Several statements made in the introduction are misleading and suggest that authors are trying to exaggerate the impact of their work. For example, "Furthermore, different species of mosquitoes exhibit plasticity and distinct rhythms in their daily activity pattern, including locomotion, feeding, mating, blood-feeding, and oviposition, facilitating their adaptation into separate time-niches (7, 8), but the underlying molecular mechanism for the heterogenous temporal activity remains to be explored." is not accurate since daily rhythms in mosquitoes' transcriptomes, behavior, and olfactory sensitivity have been the object of several publications. Even though some of them are listed later in the introduction, they contradict the claim made about the knowledge gap. See:

      Rund, S. S., Gentile, J. E., & Duffield, G. E. (2013). Extensive circadian and light regulation of the transcriptome in the malaria mosquito Anopheles gambiae. BMC genomics, 14(1), 1-19

      Rund, S. S., Hou, T. Y., Ward, S. M., Collins, F. H., & Duffield, G. E. (2011). Genome-wide profiling of diel and circadian gene expression in the malaria vector Anopheles gambiae. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 108(32), E421-E430

      Rund, S. S., Bonar, N. A., Champion, M. M., Ghazi, J. P., Houk, C. M., Leming, M. T., ... & Duffield, G. E. (2013). Daily rhythms in antennal protein and olfactory sensitivity in the malaria mosquito Anopheles gambiae. Scientific reports, 3(1), 2494

      Rund, S. S., Lee, S. J., Bush, B. R., & Duffield, G. E. (2012). Strain-and sex-specific differences in daily flight activity and the circadian clock of Anopheles gambiae mosquitoes. Journal of insect physiology, 58(12), 1609-1619

      Leming, M. T., Rund, S. S., Behura, S. K., Duffield, G. E., & O'Tousa, J. E. (2014). A database of circadian and diel rhythmic gene expression in the yellow fever mosquito Aedes aegypti. BMC genomics, 15(1), 1-9

      Eilerts, D. F., VanderGiessen, M., Bose, E. A., Broxton, K., & Vinauger, C. (2018). Odor-specific daily rhythms in the olfactory sensitivity and behavior of Aedes aegypti mosquitoes. Insects, 9(4), 147

      Rivas, G. B., Teles-de-Freitas, R., Pavan, M. G., Lima, J. B., Peixoto, A. A., & Bruno, R. V. (2018). Effects of light and temperature on daily activity and clock gene expression in two mosquito disease vectors. Journal of Biological Rhythms, 33(3), 272-288

      Response: We apologies for this oversight. In the revised manuscript, we have added these references and made changes to the text as suggested by the reviewer.

      The knowledge gap brought up in the next paragraph of the introduction doesn't reflect the questions asked by the experiments: "But, how the pacemaker differentially influences peripheral clock activity present in the olfactory system and modulates olfactory sensitivity has not been studied in detail." Specifically, the control of peripheral clocks by the central pacemaker has not been evaluated here.

      Response: This statement has been modified in the revised manuscript.

      "In vertebrates and invertebrates, it is well documented that circadian phase-dependent training can influence olfactory memory acquisition and consolidation of brain functions" should also cite work on cockroaches and kissing bugs:

      Lubinski, A. J., & Page, T. L. (2016). The optic lobes regulate circadian rhythms of olfactory learning and memory in the cockroach. Journal of Biological Rhythms, 31(2), 161-169

      Page, T. L. (2009). Circadian regulation of olfaction and olfactory learning in the cockroach Leucophaea maderae. Sleep and Biological Rhythms, 7, 152-161

      Vinauger, C., & Lazzari, C. R. (2015). Circadian modulation of learning ability in a disease vector insect, Rhodnius prolixus. Journal of Experimental Biology, 218(19), 3110-3117

      Response: These references have been added in the revised manuscript as suggested by the reviewer.

      The sentence: "Previous studies showed that synaptic plasticity and memory are significantly influenced by the strength and number of synaptic connections (43, 44)." should be nuanced as the role of neuropeptides such as dopamine has also been showed to influence learning and memory in mosquitoes:

      Vinauger, C., Lahondère, C., Wolff, G. H., Locke, L. T., Liaw, J. E., Parrish, J. Z., ... & Riffell, J. A. (2018). Modulation of host learning in Aedes aegypti mosquitoes. Current Biology, 28(3), 333-344 Wolff, G. H., Lahondère, C., Vinauger, C., Rylance, E., & Riffell, J. A. (2023). Neuromodulation and differential learning across mosquito species. Proceedings of the Royal Society B, 290(1990), 20222118

      Response: We agree with the reviewer. We have modified this statement and added the references in the revised manuscript.

      Overall, the paragraph dealing with the idea that "circadian phase-dependent training can influence olfactory memory acquisition and consolidation of brain functions" is very confusing. This paragraph discusses mechanisms of learning-induced plasticity but seems to ignore the simplest (most parsimonious) explanations for the circadian regulation of learning (e.g., time-dependent expression of genes involved in memory consolidation). In addition, the sentence quoted above is circumvoluted to simply say that training at different times of the day affects memory acquisition and consolidation. Although the authors did look at one gene involved in neural function, learning, memory, or circadian effects were not analysed in this study. Please reconsider the relevance of the paragraph.

      Response: We have modified this paragraph as per the suggestions of the reviewer in the revised manuscript.

      The sentence: "But, how the brain of mosquitoes entrains circadian inputs and modulates transcriptional responses that consequently contribute to remodel plastic memory, is unknown." should be rephrased. First, it should be "entrains TO circadian inputs", and second, it suggests that the study will be investigating circadian modulation of learning and memory, which is not the case. Furthermore, the term "remodel plastic memory" is unclear and doesn't seem to relate to any specific cellular or neural processes.

      Response: This statement has been removed from the revised manuscript.

      Given the differences in mosquito chronobiology observed even between strains, why perform the RNAi and EAGs on a different species of Anopheles than the one used for the RNAseq (or vice versa)?

      Response: We agree with the reviewer that there are differences in mosquito chronobiology between different strains and therefore species variation may be challenging for data interpretation. Considering the strict nocturnal behavioral pattern of An. culicifacies and dirurnal behavior of Aedes aegypti, we performed RNA-Seq study with these respective species. However, 1) due to unavailability of EAG facility at ICMR-National Institute of Malaria Research, India (only where An. culicifacies colony is available), 2) challenges in rearing and adaptation of An. culicifacies in a new environment/laboratory, 3) to validate the proof-of-concept of CYP450 function in odorant detection and olfactory sensitivity, we opt for the current collaborative study. We are also aware that species variation of Anopheles for electroantennographic study would be difficult to correlate with the molecular data on An. culicifacies. Thus, we consider An. gambiae (not other Anopheles mosquitoes like An. stephensi, An. coluzzii etc.) because of the availability of diel rhythm associated molecular data for An. gambiae (68). For better interpretation we also compare expression profiling of CYP450 and OBP genes between An. culicifacies and An. gambiae (Supplemental file 3). Importantly, we found similar expression pattern of several CYP450 and OBP/CSP genes between An. culicifacies and An. gambiae. Furthermore, please note that the primary focus of the current MS is to highlight the role of peri-receptor proteins in olfactory sensitivity and odor detection. And, as a proof-of-concept, we validate this hypothesis both in An. gambiae and Aed. aegypti. We believe that the basic mechanism of odor detection and peri-receptor events are similar/conserved from insects to higher vertebrates, therefore, the arguments for species difference can be overruled.

      S. S. C. Rund, J. E. Gentile, G. E. Duffield, Extensive circadian and light regulation of the transcriptome in the malaria mosquito Anopheles gambiae. BMC Genomics. 14 (2013), doi:10.1186/1471-2164-14-218. S. S. C. Rund, T. Y. Hou, S. M. Ward, F. H. Collins, G. E. Duffield, Genome-wide profiling of diel and circadian gene expression in the malaria vector Anopheles gambiae. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. U. S. A. 108 (2011), doi:10.1073/pnas.1100584108. S. S. C. Rund, N. A. Bonar, M. M. Champion, J. P. Ghazi, C. M. Houk, M. T. Leming, Z. Syed, G. E. Duffield, Daily rhythms in antennal protein and olfactory sensitivity in the malaria mosquito Anopheles gambiae. Sci. Rep. 3, 2494 (2013).

      Results

      1. "As reported earlier, a significant upregulation of period and timeless during ZT12-ZT18 was observed in both species (Figure 1C)." Please provide effect size and summary statistics.

      Response: The statistics are provided in the Figure S2 in the revised manuscript.

      "Next, the distribution of peak transcriptional changes in both An. culicifacies and Ae. aegypti was assessed through differential gene-expression analysis. Noticeably, An. culicifacies showed a higher abundance of differentially expressed olfactory genes (Figure 1D)" Please provide effect size and summary statistics.

      Response: The statistics are provided in the Table 1 in the revised manuscript.

      "Taken together, the data suggests that the nocturnal An. culicifacies may possess a more stringent circadian molecular rhythm in peripheral olfactory and brain tissues." What do the authors mean by "stringent"? At this point, this should be stated as a working hypothesis, as the statement is not backed up by the data. It is possible that the fewer differentially expressed genes of Aedes aegypti are more central to regulatory networks and cascade into more "stringent" rhythmic control of activities and rhythms.

      Response: We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We have modified this statement as suggested by the reviewer.

      The section title: "Circadian cycle differentially and predominantly expresses olfaction-associated detoxification genes in Anopheles and Aedes" doesn't make sense. The expression of genes can be modulated by circadian rhythms, but cycles don't express genes. Please rephrase. In addition, this whole section deals with "circadian rhythms" while no experiment has been conducted under constant conditions. The observed daily variations are therefore diel rhythms until their persistence under constant conditions is established.

      Response: We agree with the reviewer and changed the statement accordingly.

      "The downregulated genes of Ae. aegypti did not show any functional categories probably due to the limited transcriptional change." Could the authors explain if this is actually the phenomenon or due to a lack of temporal resolution in the study design (i.e., 4 time points)?

      Response: We do not agree with the reviewer’s comments about the lack of temporal resolution in the current study. The functional categories of differentially expressed genes are deduced by gene set enrichment analysis, which identify the classes of genes that are overrepresented in a large set of genes. The statistical significance value is dependent on the abundance of query and background genes. In our experiments, as the number of queries (i.e. number of downregulated genes) is limited, the enrichment tool, i.e. shinyGo didn’t able to show significant enrichment of downregulated genes with FDR cut-off 0.05 and top 10 pathways were selected. Though we have selected 4 time points, previous study by Rund et al. (BMC Genomics 2013) also showed that compared to Aed. aegypti, An. gambiae possess higher number of rhythmic genes (2.6 fold higher). Therefore, it can be stated that the data that we received is not due to the pitfalls of study design, but probably the physiological difference between Anopheles and Aedes mosquitoes.

      "a GO-enrichment analysis was unable to track any change in the response-to-stimulus or odorant binding category of genes (including OBPs, CSPs, and olfactory receptors)." This finding doesn't corroborate the statements made previously and doesn't align with previously published studies. Is it due to pitfalls in the study design?

      Response: The functional categories of differentially expressed genes are deduced by gene set enrichment analysis, which identify the classes of genes that are overrepresented in a large set of genes. The statistical significance value is dependent on the abundance of query and background genes. Though, differential expression analysis revealed a significant upregulation of a subset of CSPs (~ 5-fold) and OBP6 (~3.3-fold) transcripts in An. culicifacies mosquitoes during ZT12, as the number of queries (i.e. number of chemosensory genes) is limited (i.e. 3), the enrichment tool, i.e. shinyGo didn’t able to show significant enrichment of these categories of genes when FDR cut-off 0.05 and top 10 pathways were selected.

      Moreover, we do not agree with the reviewer regarding the comment on pitfalls of study design because our previous experiments with An. culicifacies according to diel rhythm, considering more extended time points, also revealed similar expression pattern of chemosensory genes (Das De et.al., 2018).

      "In contrast, three different clusters of OBP genes in Ae. aegypti showed a time-of-day dependent distinct peak in expression starting from ZT0-ZT12 (Figure 2F)." Please provide summary statistics.

      Response: Please find the table for summary statistics in the supplemental file 1.

      "In the case of An. gambiae, the amplitudes of odor-evoked responses were significantly influenced by the doses of all the odorants tested (repeated measure ANOVA, p {less than or equal to} 2e-16) (Figure S4B)." Did the authors use a positive control for the EAGs? How did the authors normalize the responses across the two species? Given the way the data is presented, how were the data normalized to allow inter-species comparisons? In addition, It is highly unlikely that all the mosquito preps used in the EAG assay responded to all the odors tested. If that was the case, then the dataset includes missing data for certain odors and time points. We believe the authors have ensured there are at least a certain number of responses per odor and time point combinations. If this is true, repeated measures ANOVA is not suited for analyzing this data because this statistical technique requires all repeated measures within and across preps without missing values. Also, the authors need to correct the summary statistics for multiple comparisons within this framework to avoid inflating type-I errors. Has this been done?

      Response: In our study involving An. gambiae, we observed significant influences of odorant doses on the amplitudes of odor-evoked responses (repeated measure ANOVA, p ≤ 2e-16) (Figure S4B). It's important to note that we did not employ a separate positive control for the electroantennogram (EAG) assays, as the compounds utilized in our research are already known to be EAG active in at least one of the mosquito species under investigation (mentioned in supplementary file 3).

      Our primary objective for performing EAG studies is to correlate the diel-rhythmic molecular data with the diel-rhythmic electroantennographic response in nocturnal and diurnal mosquitoes. To address the normalization of responses across the two species, we opted to control for dose and time rather than normalizing using one of the EAG active compounds. Further, the EAG responses were measured in relation to solvent control. In our experimental design, we utilized different batches of mosquitoes from the same cohort to test each odorant at various time points. EAG responses were acquired using the same mosquito across different dilutions for a single odor or volatile compound, rather than across time points. Hence, we didn’t end up with missing values.

      For individual species analysis, we performed repeated measures ANOVA for each compound's EAG response, considering dose and time as variables. This enabled not only enabled us select compounds which where ‘Time’ or its interaction terms were found to be significant. Subsequently, for compounds showing significance, we conducted a basic one-way ANOVA using only time as a variable, segregating the data by each individual dose. Post-hoc Tukey tests were then carried out to compare between time points. When comparing between species, we generated a dataset by combining both species and adding species as a variable as well. Repeated measures ANOVA for each compound's EAG response, considering species, dose, and time as variables, was applied. This enabled us select compounds which where ‘Time’ or its interaction terms were found to be significant. For significant compounds, a two-way ANOVA was performed using time and species as variables. Data were segregated by each individual dose, and post-hoc Tukey tests were employed to compare between time points. It's worth mentioning that our analysis aims to account for repeated measures within and across preparations. Additionally, we have implemented post-hoc Tukey tests to correct for multiple comparisons within this framework, ensuring that we avoid inflating type-I errors in our statistical interpretations.

      "Ae. aegypti was found to be most sensitive to all the odorants (4-methylphenol, β-ocimine, E2-nonenal, benzaldehyde, nonanal, and 3-octanol) during ZT18-20 except sulcatone (Figure 3C - 3H)." Although some of these chemicals are associated with plants and Ae. aegypti is suspected to sugar feed at night, how do the authors explain that the peak olfactory sensitivity occurs at night for compounds such as nonanal? It would be interesting to discuss how these results compare to previous studies such as:

      Eilerts, D. F., VanderGiessen, M., Bose, E. A., Broxton, K., & Vinauger, C. (2018). Odor-specific daily rhythms in the olfactory sensitivity and behavior of Aedes aegypti mosquitoes. Insects, 9(4), 147

      Response: The possible explanations have been added in the revised MS.

      "Additionally, our principal components analysis also illustrates that most loadings of relative EAG responses are higher towards the Anopheles observations (Figure S4C)." The meaning of this sentence is unclear? Please clarify.

      Response: Considering the limited clarity of the statement we have removed it from the revised manuscript.

      "Taken together these data indicate that An. gambiae may exhibit higher antennal sensitivity to at least five different odorants tested, as compared to Ae. aegypti." As mentioned above, how did the authors normalized across species to allow comparisons? If not normalized, how do you ensure that higher response magnitudes correlate with higher olfactory sensitivity, given potential differences in the morphology or size differences between the two species? Furthermore, An. gambiae has been exclusively used in the EAG assay. Besides the lack of a justification for using a species other than An. culicifacies, the authors have interpreted the EAG results under the assumption that the olfactory sensitivities of An. gambiae and An. culicifacies are comparable. This, however, is a major caveat in the experiment design, given previous studies (indicated below) have reported species-specific variations in olfactory sensitivity. In its present form, the EAG data from An. gambiae is not a piece of appropriate evidence that the authors could use to complement or substantiate the findings from other aspects of this study on An. culicifacies.

      Wheelwright, M., Whittle, C. R., & Riabinina, O. (2021). Olfactory systems across mosquito species. Cell and Tissue Research, 383(1), 75-90. Wooding, M., Naudé, Y., Rohwer, E., & Bouwer, M. (2020). Controlling mosquitoes with semiochemicals: a review. Parasites & Vectors, 13, 1-20.

      iii. Gupta, A., Singh, S. S., Mittal, A. M., Singh, P., Goyal, S., Kannan, K. R., ... & Gupta, N. (2022). Mosquito Olfactory Response Ensemble enables pattern discovery by curating a behavioral and electrophysiological response database. Iscience, 25(3).

      Response: The data is normalized as described above in the point 15. Also, it is technical limitation that we had to use multiple species of the mosquito for this study (please refer to the point 7).

      The reviewer’s statement “Besides the lack of a justification for using a species other than An. culicifacies, the authors have interpreted the EAG results under the assumption that the olfactory sensitivities of An. gambiae and An. culicifacies are comparable” is not true, as we never assume similar olfactory sensitivity between An. culicifacies and An. gambiae. We only consider nocturnal activity for both the mosquito species. Moreover, we are aware that species variation of Anopheles for electroantennographic study would be difficult to correlate with the molecular data on An. culicifacies. Thus, we consider An. gambiae (no other Anopheles mosquitoes like An. stephensi, An. coluzzii etc.) because of the availability of diel rhythm associated molecular data for An. gambiae (68). For better interpretation we also compare expression profiling of CYP450 and OBP genes between An. culicifacies and An. gambiae (Supplemental file 3). Importantly, we found similar expression pattern of several CYP450 and OBP/CSP genes between An. culicifacies and An. gambiae. Furthermore, we would like to emphasize that the primary focus of the current manuscript is to highlight the role of peri-receptor proteins in olfactory sensitivity and odor detection. And, as a proof-of-concept, we validated this hypothesis both in An. gambiae and Aed. aegypti. We believe that the basic mechanism of odor detection and peri-receptor events are similar/conserved from insects to higher vertebrates.

      "Similar to An. gambiae, a comparatively high amplitude response was also observed in An. stephensi (Figure S4D)." This is interesting but what would be even more relevant to the present study is to discuss how the time-dependent responses compare between the two Anopheles species.

      Response: We agree that it will be interesting to compare time-dependent response between the two Anopheles species. However, it is not our primary interest and objectives, and is beyond the scope of the current manuscript. Thus, we remove the data from the revised MS.

      The paragraph titled "Daily temporal modulation of neuronal serine protease impacts mosquito's olfactory sensitivity" is confusing because the authors move on to test the effect of knocking down a serine protease gene (found to be differentially expressed throughout the day) on olfactory sensitivity. While this is interesting in and of itself, the link between the role of this gene in learning-induced plasticity, the circadian modulation of "brain functions" and olfactory sensitivity is 1) unclear and 2) not explicitly tested. We agree with the authors that what has been tested is "the effect of neuronal serine protease on circadian-dependent olfactory responses," but the two paragraphs leading to it seem to be extrapolating functional links that have yet to be determined. In this context, their conclusions that "Our finding highlights that daily temporal modulation of neuronal serine-protease may have important functions in the maintenance of brain homeostasis and olfactory odor responses." is misleading because although they used the hypothetical "may", the link between the temporal modulation of one serine protease gene and the maintenance of brain homeostasis is not explicitly tested here.

      Response: Though, we strongly believe that neuronal serine protease are involved in remodelling of extracellular matrix and the maintenance of brain homeostasis, the limitation of experimental validation by neuroimaging (out of the scope of the current manuscript), restricting us to draw the conclusion. Therefore, we have modified our conclusions based on the available data as suggested by the reviewer.

      Discussion

      1. The first sentence of the discussion: "In this study, we provide initial evidence that the daily rhythmic change in the olfactory sensitivity of mosquitoes is tuned with the temporal modulation of molecular factors involved in the initial biochemical process of odor detection i.e., peri-receptor events" is not true since studies from Rund and Duffield previously revealed the daily modulation of OBP gene expression. It also contradicts the next sentence: "The findings of circadian-dependent elevation of xenobiotic metabolizing enzymes in the olfactory system of both Ae. aegypti and An. culicifacies are consistent with previous literature (26, 31), and we postulate that these proteins may contribute to the regulation of odorant detection in mosquitoes."

      Response: This statement is modified in the revised manuscript.

      The use of "circadian" in the discussion of the results is also misleading as only diel rhythms were evaluated in the present study.

      Response: This is changed in the revised manuscript.

      "Given the potentially larger odor space in mosquitoes (like other hematophagous insects) (16, 58)." This is not really what these references show.

      Response: The statement and the references have been changed in the revised manuscript.

      "Given the potentially larger odor space in mosquitoes (like other hematophagous insects) (16, 58), it can be hypothesized that detection of any specific signal in such a noisy environment, mosquitoes may have evolved a sophisticated mechanism for rapid (i) odor mobilization and (ii) odorant clearance, to prevent anosmia (24)." One could argue that this is a requirement for all insects, regardless of the size of their olfactory repertoire.

      Response: We agree with the reviewer and modified the text accordingly.

      "Taken together, we hypothesize that circadian-dependent activation of the peri-receptor events may modulate olfactory sensitivity and are key for the onset of peak navigation time in each mosquito species." This is not entirely accurate since spontaneous locomotor activity rhythms are also observed in the absence of olfactory stimulation. While "navigation" does imply olfactory-guided behaviors, "peak navigation time" appears to be driven by other processes. See, for example, all studies testing mosquito activity rhythms in locomotor activity monitors. Response: Considering the concern of the reviewer, we have modified the text.

      "Due to technical limitations, and considering the substantial data on the circadian-dependent molecular rhythmicity" please clarify what the technical limitations were. Is this something that prevented the authors specifically, or something tied to mosquito biology and would prevent anybody from doing it? Also, why couldn't the transcriptomic analysis be performed on An. gambiae?

      Response: As previously mentioned, primarily, unavailability of EAG facility at ICMR-National Institute of Malaria Research, India (only where An. culicifacies colony is available) is the major challenge for us to proof our hypothesis. Secondly, transportation of An. culicifacies was not possible due to Govt. regulations and also adaptation and establishment of the colony of An. culicifacies take long time as it is not easily adapted (Adak T, Kaur S, Singh OP. Comparative susceptibility of different members of the Anopheles culicifacies complex to Plasmodium vivax. Trans R Soc Trop Med Hyg. 1999;93:573–577) in a new environment/laboratory. Thirdly, An. culicifacies colony was not available at our collaborative laboratory. These are the major technical limitations.

      Therefore, to validate the hypothesis of CYP450 function in odorant detection and olfactory sensitivity, we opt for the current collaborative study. We are also aware that species variation of Anopheles for electroantennographic study would be difficult to correlate with the molecular data on An. culicifacies. Thus, we consider An. gambiae (not other Anopheles mosquitoes like An. stephensi, An. coluzzii etc.) because of the availability of diel rhythm associated molecular data for An. gambiae (68). For better interpretation we also compare expression profiling of CYP450 and OBP genes between An. culicifacies and An. gambiae (Supplemental file 3). Importantly, we found similar expression pattern of several CYP450 and OBP/CSP genes between An. culicifacies and An. gambiae. Performing another RNA-Seq study with An. gambiae would not be possible for the current MS. Furthermore, please note that the primary focus of the current MS is to highlight the role of peri-receptor proteins in olfactory sensitivity and odor detection. And, as a proof-of-concept, we validate this hypothesis both in An. gambiae and Aed. aegypti. We believe that the basic mechanism of odor detection and peri-receptor events are similar/conserved from insects to higher vertebrates.

      "In contrast to An. gambiae, the time-dose interactions had a higher significant impact on the antennal sensitivity of Ae. aegypti. An. gambiae showed a conserved pattern in the daily rhythm of olfactory sensitivity, peaking at ZT1-3 and ZT18-20." These two sentences are very confusing. Doesn't it simply mean that the co-variation is not linear or not the same across odors? In addition, what does it mean for a pattern to be more conserved? How can one conclude about the "conserved" nature of a pattern by looking at time-dependent variations in dose-response curves?

      Response: This section of discussion is re-written in the revised version of the manuscript.

      "Together these data, we interpret that mosquito's olfactory sensitivity possibly does not follow a fixed temporal trait" is unclear and suggests that the authors are discussing global versus odor-specific rhythms. Please rephrase.

      Response: This section of discussion is re-written in the revised version of the manuscript.

      "Moreover, we hypothesize that under standard insectary conditions, mosquitoes may not need to exhibit foraging flight activity either for nectar or blood, and during the time course, it may minimize their olfactory rhythm, which is obligately required for wild mosquitoes." This hypothesis is not supported by the results of the study and contradicts work by others (Rund et al., Eilerts et al., Gentile et., etc).

      Response: This section of discussion is re-written in the revised version of the manuscript.

      The same comment applies to "Therefore, it is reasonable to think that the mosquitoes used for EAG studies may have adapted well under insectary settings and, hence carry weak olfactory rhythm." as this statement is not supported by results of the present study or comparisons of the results to previous studies based on field-caught mosquitoes. Although it is an interesting question to ask in the future, it should be stated as a future research avenue rather than a working hypothesis that results from the present study.

      This section of discussion is re-written in the revised version of the manuscript.

      "Aedes aegypti displayed a peak in antennal sensitivity at ZT18-20 to the higher concentrations of plant and vertebrate host-associated odorants tested. Given the time-of-day dependent multiple peaks (at ZT6-8 and ZT18-20 for benzaldehyde and at ZT12-14 and ZT18-20 for nonanal) in antennal sensitivity to different odorants, our data supports the previous observation of bimodal activity pattern of Ae. aegypti (50)." Rephrase by saying that results are "aligned with the previous observations of bimodal activity". Olfactory rhythms don't "support" the activity patterns because olfactory processes and spontaneous locomotor activity are independent processes.

      Response: We have made these changes in the revised manuscript as per the suggestions of the reviewer.

      "our preliminary data indicate that Anopheles spp. may possess comparatively higher olfactory sensitivity to a substantial number of odorants as compared to Aedes spp." Consider removing this sentence unless the way the data has been normalized to allow for comparisons between species is clarified.

      Response: This statement is removed from the revised manuscript.

      In "A significant decrease in odorant sensitivity for all the volatile odors tested in the CYP450-silenced Ae. aegypti," please change "silenced" to "reduced" because RNAi doesn't silence (i.e. knockout) gene expression.

      Response: It has been modified as per the suggestions of the reviewer.

      The title "Neuronal serine protease consolidates brain function and olfactory detection" is extremely misleading. Do the authors refer to memory consolidation, which has not been tested here? What is brain function consolidation??

      Response: We agree with the reviewer. The title has been modified in the revised manuscript.

      The reference used in "Despite their tiny brain size, mosquitoes, like other insects, have an incredible power to process and memorize circadian-guided olfactory information (7)." is not appropriate. Also, "circadian-guided" is unclear. Consider replacing it with "circadian-gated".

      Response: It has been modified as per the suggestions of the reviewer.

      What is the "the homeostatic process of the brain"?

      Response: The process of maintaining a stable state can be defined as homeostasis. Here, the statement "the homeostatic process of the brain" is used to convey that after the active host-seeking/olfaction phase of mosquitoes during which the co-ordinated and integrated functions of both olfactory and neuronal system is required for crucial decision-making events, brain may undergo a homeostatic process (comes down from excitatory state to stable state) during the resting period. However, in view of reviewer’s concern we have modified the statement.

      "the temporal oscillation of the sleep-wake cycle of any organism is managed by the encoding of experience during wake, and consolidation of synaptic change during inactive (sleep) phases, respectively (70)." By experience, do the authors refer to learning? This seems out of topic as this process has not been evaluated here.

      Response: It has been modified as per the suggestions of the reviewer.

      "We speculate that after the commencement of the active phase (ZT6-ZT12), the serine peptidase family of proteins in the brain of Ae. aegypti mosquitoes may play an important function in consolidating brain actions (after ZT12) and aid circadian-dependent memory formation." The value of this statement is unclear. Circadian-dependent memory formation is not being evaluated here, and the results from the present study do not directly support this speculation, also because other processes involved in memory formation are not evaluated here. This seems at odds with the literature on learning and memory.

      Response: We have modified these statements in the revised manuscript and mentioned it as future research hypothesis.

      "Subsequent work on electrophysiological and neuro-imaging studies are needed to demonstrate the role of neuronal-serine proteases in the reorganization of perisynaptic structure." Sure. But the link between "the role of neuronal-serine proteases in the reorganization of perisynaptic structure" and rhythms in olfactory sensitivity is unclear.

      Response: It has been modified as per the suggestions of the reviewer.

      As a general comment, EAGs seem inappropriate to evaluate the effect of the central-brain processing in the regulation of peripheral olfactory processes. This is a critical comment that needs to be considered by the authors and clarified in the manuscript. If rhythms of central brain processes are important for olfactory-guided behaviors, these should be evaluated at the level of the central brain or via behavioral metrics. The effect of the RNAi knockdowns on peripheral sensitivity is interesting, but its link with central processes is unclear and doesn't support the speculations made by the authors about learning and memory.

      Response: We agree with the reviewer that EAG study is not enough/appropriate to comment on the effect of central-brain processing in the regulation of olfactory processes. Further validation by either neuroimaging or behavioral studies are needed to make any conclusion. We clearly mention in the manuscript that our data indirectly indicating this function of serine protease and further confirmatory studies are needed to prove this hypothesis.

      Methods

      1. No explanations are provided for how the EAG data are normalized to allow comparisons between species.

      Response: Please refer to the response of the point no. 15 of the reviewer 1.

      Figures 42. Figure 1: The daily rhythm depicted in A, are not representative of the actual profiles. See: Benoit, J. B., & Vinauger, C. (2022). Chapter 32: Chronobiology of blood-feeding arthropods: influences on their role as disease vectors. In Sensory ecology of disease vectors (pp. 815-849). Wageningen Academic Publishers. Or any other paper on mosquito activity rhythms.

      Response: Considering the reviewer’s concern we have revised the figure.

      Figure 3 and 4: The EAG results are plotted twice. This is redundant and misleading as it makes the reader think there is more data than actually presented.

      Response: Considering the reviewer’s comment we shifted figure 4 into the supplemental file.

      Figure 5: Please clarify the sample size for each panel. In C - F, what would be used as a reference? In other words, what is a Relative EAG Response of 1? And if it is "relative", are the units really mV? In E and F, it would be great to show how the Ethanol control compares to the no solvent condition. This could be placed in supplementary materials.

      Response: The sample size was mentioned in the figure legends. However, for the reviewer’s clarification, the odor response was tested with 40 individual mosquitoes of control and dsrRNA-treated groups. Therefore, sample size N=40 for Fig. 5C.

      Respective solvent control (hexane solvent) used as a reference to calculate the relative EAG response for both the dsrLacZ and dsrCYP450 group. As it is relative EAG amplitude we have removed the unit in the revised MS.

      Figures 5 and 6, given the dispersion in the EAG data, the treatments where N=40 appear robust, but the interpretation of results from treatments where N=6 may be limited due to the low sample size. This limitation is visible in Figure 5F, for example, where ABT-Aceto is different from Cont-Aceta but not PBO-Aceto because one individual shows a higher response.

      Response: We agree that probably, by increasing the sample size for inhibitor treatment experiment, may decrease these inter-individual differences and increase the overall significance value. However, our robust knock-down data showed significant results and simultaneously it complements the inhibitor study in Ae. aegypti, we do not think of any disparity in the data. Moreover, EAG response to human blend, nonanal and benzaldehyde showed similar significant results in both RNAi and inhibitor studies. Accounting, the different knock-down efficiency in dsRNA injected mosquitoes, the phenotypic assays (EAG recordings) were carried out with 40 control and 40 dsRNA-treated mosquitoes. And, we observed significant reduction in EAG response following inhibitor treatment in An. gambiae, when we tested for 6 ethanol and 6 inhibitor treated mosquitoes. Thus, we followed the similar protocol for Ae. aegypti also. However, inter-individual difference in response is affecting the significance value.

      Figure S6: how does this support that synaptic plasticity is influenced by "Time-of-day dependent modulation of serine protease genes in the brain"?

      Response: We agree with the reviewer’s concern that with only EAG data it is not possible to comment on synaptic plasticity. We apologize for it and revised the statement in the MS.


      Minor comments

      What do the authors mean by "consolidation of brain functions"? Memory consolidation? Please clarify.

      Response: The consolidation of brain function or memory consolidation means to the process of stabilizing the memory that an organism gains through the process of experience or training/learning phase. Memory consolidation initiates with rapid change in de-novo gene expression regulated by several transcription factors, effector genes and non-coding RNAs, known as molecular consolidation followed by cellular consolidation that involves cellular signal transmission within the neurons in the brain. The molecular and cellular consolidation are the basis for system level consolidation which is a slow process and involves communication among neurons located different regions of the brain. The system level consolidation is very important for the reorganization of the brain circuits to maintain long-term memory. The concept of system consolation is very much well evident in humans. Additionally, several studies in Drosophila also showed that fruit fly develop olfactory memories after classical conditioning or olfactory training through system consolidation process.

      Moreover, accumulating data from humans suggest that sleep helps in memory consolidation. Sleep is basic drive for all animals that help to build memories. There are two hypothesis and respective compelling evidences for that. First hypothesis and the supporting molecular and electrophysiological data convey that sleep facilitate the homeostatic processes of the brain involving loosening of synaptic connections between the overactive neurons, structural modification of synapse which consequently help in memory formation. The second hypothesis state the important contribution of sleep in system consolidation and long-term memory potentiation. Studying the electrical activity of the brain and the recent advancement of fMRI scan indicate reorganization of neural activity between brain regions during sleep-related memory consolidation.

      There are several experimental evidences in support of both the theory for humans as well as in fruit fry Drosophila melanogaster. In mosquitoes, the studies related to the function of brain are primarily restricted to the mechanism of odor coding and memory formation has been correlated with Dopamine neurotransmitter signalling. In view of the rapid adaptation potential, change in host-preference and evolution of temporal host-seeking behaviour, it can be hypothesized that mosquito brain also undergo the process of memory consolidation (either following any of the two hypothesized path or cumulatively apply the both) to learn new information in order to effectively shape future actions.

      Furthermore, according to the fundamental principle of modern neuroscience learning and memory are achieved either by the formation of new synaptic connections or changing in existing connections between neurons. The ability of synapses to either strengthen or weaken the communications is called plasticity which is influenced by learning and experience and facilitate organism’s adaptation and survival.

      Reference:

      1. Cervantes-Sandova, A. Martin-Peña, J. A. Berry, R. L. Davis, System-like consolidation of olfactory memories in Drosophila. J. Neurosci. 33, 9846–9854 (2013).
      2. In "Similar to previous studies (26), the expression of a limited number of rhythmic genes was visualized in Ae. aegypti" please replace "visualized" with "observed".
      3. Marshall, N. Cross, S. Binder, T. T. Dang-Vu, Brain rhythms during sleep and memory consolidation: Neurobiological insights. Physiology. 35, 4–15 (2020).
      4. Brendon O. Watson and György Buzsáki. Sleep, Memory & Brain Rhythms. Daedalus, 144(1): 67–82 (2015). doi:10.1162/DAED_a_00318

      Figure 2A, please clarify in the caption what FDR stands for.

      Response: FDR stands for “false discovery rate”. FDR is an adjusted p-value to trim false positive results.

      In "To further establish this proof-of-concept in An. gambiae, three potent CYP450 inhibitors, aminobenzotriazole(52), piperonyl butoxide(53), and schinandrin A (54), was applied topically on the head capsule of 5-6-day-old female mosquitoes" replace "was applied" with "were applied".

      Response: These changes are made in the revised manuscript.

      "Interestingly, our species-time interaction studies revealed that An. gambiae exhibits time-of-day dependent significantly high antennal sensitivity to at least four chemical odorants compared to Ae. aegypti, except phenol." is unclear. Please reword.

      Response: The statement has been revised in the MS.

      In "Similar observations were also noticed with An. stephensi." replace "noticed" with "made". Response: We have modified the statement in the revised version of the manuscript.



      Reviewer #1 (Significance (Required)):

      Such a study has the potential to be valuable for the field, but its value and significance are hindered by an accumulation of overstatements, the fact that prior work in the field has been minimized or omitted, and a lack of support for the stated conclusions.

      In this context, the advances are only slightly incremental compared to the work produced by Rund et al., and the mechanistic hypotheses emitted to link the genes selected for knockdown experiments and olfactory sensitivity are not clearly supported by the evidence presented here. The main strength of the paper is to show the role of CYP450 in olfactory sensitivity.

      The audience is fairly broad and includes insect neuro-ethologists, molecular biologists, and chronobiologists.

      Our field of expertise:

      • Mosquito chemosensation

      • Learning and memory

      • Chronobiology

      • Electrophysiology

      • Medical entomology









      Reviewer #2 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      This report combines an examination of peripheral transcriptomes and general olfactory sensitivity in an effort to underscore the importance of peri-receptor components in circadian-directed modulation of olfaction across both Aedine and Anopheline mosquitoes. While the authors do a nice job of raising the importance of the often-underappreciated spectrum of insect olfactory peri-receptor proteins, the impact of their study is undercut by technical concerns regarding methods and data presentation. That several of these concerns (detailed below) are explicitly acknowledged by the authors as limitations of this study does not mitigate their impact in eroding confidence in these data and this study.

      All in all, as a result of these concerns, I am unconvinced as to the overall merits of this somewhat interesting but generally uneven study.

      We sincerely thank the reviewer for their time and consideration, and appreciate the thorough review of our manuscript. Their insightful comments have greatly enriched our work. We also apologies for instances of overinterpreting the data. Your feedback has helped us recognize areas where clarity and caution are needed, and we are committed to addressing these concerns in our revisions. Thank you for your valuable input and guidance.

      Major concerns:

      1. That the authors use An. culicifacies for their transcriptome studies and An. gambiae (G3) for the olfactory physiology does not work. The 'technical limitations' (read studies done at two different locations) make this report an unwelcome melding of what should perhaps be two distinct studies. In order to maintain this forced marriage as a single report I would suggest the authors utilize An. culicifacies for both components. Alternatively, they can do both parts with An. gambiae but here I would strongly urge them to use any strain other than G3 which as a result of its now decades-long laboratory residence has long since lost its relevance to natural populations of Anopheline vectors. Response: We agree with the reviewer that there is significant species-specific variation in olfactory sensitivity of mosquitoes. Considering the strict nocturnal behavioral pattern of An. culicifacies and dirurnal behavior of Aedes aegypti, we performed RNA-Seq study with these respective species. However, 1) due to unavailability of EAG facility at ICMR-National Institute of Malaria Research, India (only where An. culicifacies colony is available), 2) challenges in rearing and adaptation of An. culicifacies in a new environment/laboratory (An. culicifacies take long time as it is not easily adapted, Ref: Adak T, Kaur S, Singh OP. Comparative susceptibility of different members of the Anopheles culicifacies complex to Plasmodium vivax. Trans R Soc Trop Med Hyg. 1999;93:573–577), 3) An. culicifacies colony was not available at our collaborative laboratory, 4) to validate our hypothesis of CYP450 function in odorant detection and olfactory sensitivity of mosquitoes, we opt for the current collaborative study.

      We are also aware that species variation of Anopheles for electroantennographic study would be difficult to correlate with the molecular data on An. culicifacies. Thus, we consider An. gambiae (not other Anopheles mosquitoes like An. stephensi, An. coluzzii etc.) because of the availability of diel rhythm associated molecular data for An. gambiae (68). For better interpretation we also compare expression profiling of CYP450 and OBP genes between An. culicifacies and An. gambiae (Supplemental file 3). Importantly, we found similar expression pattern of several CYP450 and OBP/CSP genes between An. culicifacies and An. gambiae. Performing another RNA-Seq study with An. gambiae would not be possible for the current MS. Furthermore, please note that the primary focus of the current MS is to highlight the role of peri-receptor proteins in olfactory sensitivity and odor detection. And, as a proof-of-concept, we validate this hypothesis both in An. gambiae and Aed. aegypti. We believe that the basic mechanism of odor detection and peri-receptor events are similar/conserved from insects to higher vertebrates.

      The 70-80% alignment rate reported to the An. culicifacies reference genome significantly erodes this reader's confidence in the integrity of their analyses. That low level of alignment can have dramatic impacts on the estimation of transcript abundance has been repeated demonstrated (see, Srivastava, A., Malik, L., Sarkar, H. et al.. Genome Biol 21, 239, 2020, https://doi.org/10.1186/s13059-020-02151-8). This may (in part) explain why olfactory receptors have been largely absent from this data set.

      Response: We agree with the reviewer that alignment rate could have been better but this should not affect the quantitative information we are referring to in this manuscript. The alignment rates could have impacted the qualitative information which can vary due to multiple reasons including the quality of the reference genome. As it is evident from the analysis that in Ae. aegypti 90% of the reads are aligned to the reference genome, still we did not observe any difference in the abundancy of olfactory receptor genes. Previous microarray analysis in An. gambiae by Rund et.al. 2013, also did not show diel rhythmic expression of any OR genes.

      The issue of species choice is further complicated by questions regarding the An. culicifacies species complex which contains 5 cryptic species. How did the authors confirm they are indeed working with An. culicifacies species A -there is no mention regarding the molecular identification.

      Response: The An. culcifacies species A colony has been colonized at NIMR since 1999, with routine checks performed to verify its purity of species by analyzing inversion genotypes on chromosomes for the presence of sibling species (see the references). But at that time, we had three sibling species--A, B, C; subsequently, we lost B and C. Giving old references will not serve the purpose. Later we verified sibling species A by inversion genotype on chromosome and molecular tools. However, we do not have any published reference for that verified data.

      The species can be identified by performing 28S rDNA-based PCR (Singh et al, 2004) and cytochrome oxidase II-based PCR (Goswami et al 2006). Sequencing can also serve the purpose.


      Singh OP, Goswami G, Nanda N, Raghavendra K, Chandra D, Subbarao SK. An allele-specific polymerase chain reaction assay for the identification of members of Anopheles culicifacies complex. J Biosci. 2004; 29: 275—280 10.1007/bf02702609

      Goswami G, Singh OP, Nanda N, Raghavendra K, Gakhar SK, Subbarao SK. Identification of all members of the Anopheles culicifacies complex using allele-specific polymerase chain reaction assays. Am J Trop Med Hyg. 2006; 75: 454-460. doi: 10.4269/ajtmh.2006.75.454

      Adak T, Kaur S, Singh OP. Comparative susceptibility of different members of the Anopheles culicifacies complex to Plasmodium vivax. Trans R Soc Trop Med Hyg. 1999;93:573–577

      The switch from dsRNAi studies in Aedes to protease inhibitor studies in Anopheles adds to the interspecies confusion.

      Response: Our main goal in this study was to evaluate the function of CYP450 in mosquito’s odor detection and olfactory sensitivity. Our data as well as previous data (Rund et.al. 2011, Rund et.al. 2013) suggesting that the basic mechanism of odor detection and peri-receptor events are similar for both An. gambiae, An. culicifacies and Ae. aegypti, and the role of detoxification genes are very much evidenced from these data. Based on our RNA-Seq data on Ae. aegypti, we shortlisted one CYP450 gene for functional knockdown assays. However, for Anopheles we used An. gambiae for functional validation. Thus, it was not possible for us to select appropriate CYP450 gene from An. gambiae. That is why, we plan for using CYP450 protein inhibitors which block the function of all the CYP450 expressing in the olfactory system of mosquitoes. Expectedly, we also observed much more pronounced reduction of olfactory sensitivity when inhibitors were applied compared to dsRNAi mediated knock-down the function of only one CYP450 protein. These data indicate that Anopheles also possess similar mechanism of perireceptor events for odor detection and CYP450 plays an important role in it.

      The olfactory shifts presented in Fig 3 are somewhat underwhelming. In An. gambiae this mostly seen at very high (to my eyes, non-biologically relevant) 10-1 dilutions. In Aedes, while statistically significant, the EAG values (especially for 4MePhenol) are very low and therefore suspect and unconvincing. It is also unclear how 'Relative EAG Responses' were derived?? Does this mean relative to solvent alone controls??

      Response: Yes, relative EAG response means relative to respective solvent control. We also make necessary changes in the text as well as in the figures for better understanding and representation.

      The same data set seems to have been presented in Figures 3 and 4, with the latter's absence of salient details e.g. haphazard odor concentrations which are seen only when legend is examined). These factors make the inclusion of Figure 4 less obvious.

      Response: Depending on the reviewer’s concern we shifted the Figure 4 into the supplemental data and we are sorry for the miscommunication.

      I am concerned that the data in Figure 5B is derived from only those samples with altered EAGs. I believe that all injected mosquitoes should be assayed in order to better understand the actual efficacy of the treatment. The cherry picking of samples is troubling.

      Response: We pooled five heads for each replicate and we performed the assay with three replicates. That mean we have taken heads from 15 mosquitoes for each experimental setup (control vs knock-down). It is true that we did not consider all the 40 mosquitoes that we used for EAG-recordings. However, we believe that 15 mosquitoes will be a good representation of the population. And the error bars among replicates of the knock-down mosquitoes, compared to the dsLacZ group, clearly indicates the disparity in knock-down efficiency among individuals.

      As is true for earlier figures, Figure 5c-f is lacking critical information about concentration (also not presented in figure legend) and should be done within the context of a multi-point dose response study. The data in its current form is not acceptable.

      Response: We apologize for the mistake for not mentioning the concentration of the inhibitors. Now, we added this information in the revised manuscript.

      The same data concerns apply to Figure 6d-g.

      Response: We apologize for the mistake for not mentioning the concentration of the inhibitors. Now, we added this information in the revised manuscript.

      The inclusion of An. stephensi data Figure S4D seems thrown in as an after-thought and without good reason.

      Response: Our RNA-Seq data on An. culicifacies and Aedes aegypti revealed similar abundance and expression pattern of rhythmic transcripts specifically for peri-receptor transcripts, as reported before by Rund et. al. 2011 & 2013 for Aedes aegypti and Anopheles gambiae. Moreover, we observed significant difference in EAG response between Aedes aegypti and Anopheles gambiae, we hypothesized that higher abundance of rhythmic peri-receptor transcripts possibly has correlation with high EAG response in Anopheles. Therefore, to get an idea about the EAG response for other Anopheles sp. we used An. stephensi, and observed similar difference in EAG response. Though, it will be interesting to compare time-dependent response between the two Anopheles species, it is not our primary interest and objectives, and is beyond the scope of the current MS and the objective can be elaborated further in future.

      I am unsure how shifts in CNS levels of P450 or serine proteases impact peripheral EAG recordings? This is especially so given that any effects on synaptic plasticity/efficacy that might occur are expected to be downstream of the peripheral antennae being recorded in EAGs. The authors do not do a great job explaining away that paradox even though that section in the discussion seems overly speculative.

      Response: We agree with the reviewer that EAG study is not enough/appropriate to comment on the effect of central-brain processing in the regulation of olfactory processes. Further validation by either neuroimaging or beavioral studies are needed to make any conclusion. And we clearly mention in the MS that our data indirectly indicating this function of serine protease and further confirmatory studies are needed to proof this hypothesis. However, it is not possible for us to perform all the experiments now, due to technical and infrastructural limitations. Thus, we hypothesized it as future research endeavour. Moreover, considering the reviewer’s concern we have modified the text and removed the overstatements and speculations.

      The authors discussion on peri-receptor protein oscillation seems premature given the data that is presented (regardless of the caveats discussed above) center on transcript abundance. There is no data on protein abundance, which while related, is an entirely different question/issue.

      Response: Yes, we agree that our hypothesis of peri-receptor protein oscillation is based on our RNA-Seq data. However, later we validated our hypothesis by knock-down studies in mosquitoes as well as we used CYP450 protein inhibitors, where also we observed significant results of decrease in olfactory sensitivity. It is true that we do not have any data on protein abundance, but several previous studies along with our data showed the similar expression profiling of peri-receptor genes, which clearly indicates that the rhythmic expression pattern of these genes are conserved among mosquitoes. None of the previous studies address the hypothesis regarding the peri-receptor events and possible function of XMEs in odorant detection, which is the uniqueness of our study. Therefore, we believe that after functional validation by dsRNAi and inhibitor study, we are able to validate our hypothesis for scientific acceptance. While, CYP450 has been reported to have crucial role in xenobiotic detoxification, its role in odor detection has not been explored yet. We agree that further biochemical validation is required to see the interaction between CYP450 and odor molecules, and how CYP450 is modifying the odorant chemicals either for its detection or for its inactivation. But, such study is out of the scope of the MS and will be our future research endeavour. However, our current data and the MS will have large impact for designing of strategies for application of insecticides, as overlapping the timing of application of insecticide and rhythmic expression/natural upregulation of XMEs could accelerate the inactivation of insecticides and rapid generation of resistant mosquitoes. Thus, we believe that the current revised MS have potential data and would be valuable for publication.

      Minor concerns:

      1. The authors routinely confuse transcript abundance derived from their RNAseq data with gene expression. The former reflects the steady-state snapshot levels of transcripts encompassing\ synthesis, use and decay while the latter is limited to the rate of transcription requiring nuclear run on or single-nucleus RNAseq approaches. Response: Thank you for your insightful comment. We appreciate your clarification regarding the distinction between transcript abundance and gene expression. In the revised manuscript, we have included a clarification stating that 'transcript abundance is referred to as gene expression, unless explicitly stated otherwise”.

      There are numerous typos, spelling errors and other grammatical mistakes-a copy editor is needed.

      Response: In the revised manuscript, we have carefully corrected the spelling errors and other grammatical mistakes.

      Many of the supplemental figures are error filled, lacking sufficient details and otherwise difficult to parse/understand. I recommend revisiting/removing many of these/

      Response: We have improvised on the supplementary figures in the revised manuscript as suggested by the reviewer.

      __ Reviewer #2 (Significance (Required)):__

      In light of the serious concerns described above there is limited significance to this study. Similarly these concerns erode almost all of any advance to the field this study might have offered. The audience of interest would be highly specialized

    2. Note: This preprint has been reviewed by subject experts for Review Commons. Content has not been altered except for formatting.

      Learn more at Review Commons


      Referee #1

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      In the present manuscript, the authors analyzed diel oscillations in the brain and olfactory organs' transcriptome of Aedes aegypti and Anopheles culicifacies. The analysis of their RNAseq results showed an effect of time of day on the expression of detoxification genes involved in oxidoreductase and monooxygenase activity. Next, they investigated the effect of time of day on the olfactory sensitivity of Ae. aegypti and An. gambiae and identified the role of CYP450 in odor detection in these species using RNAi. In the last part of the study, they used RNAi to knock down the expression of one of the serine protease genes and observed a reduction in olfactory sensitivity. Overall, the experiments are well-designed and mostly robust (see comment regarding the sample size and data analysis of the EAG experiments) but do not always support the claims of the authors. For example, since no experiments were conducted under constant conditions, the circadian (i.e., driven by the internal clocks) effects are not being quantified here. In addition, knocking down the expression of a gene showing daily variations in its expression and observing an effect on olfactory sensitivity is not sufficient to show its role in the daily olfactory rhythms. Knowledge gaps are not well supported by the literature, and overstatements are made throughout the manuscript. Our detailed comments are listed below.

      Major comments

      Introduction

      Several statements made in the introduction are misleading and suggest that authors are trying to exaggerate the impact of their work. For example, "Furthermore, different species of mosquitoes exhibit plasticity and distinct rhythms in their daily activity pattern, including locomotion, feeding, mating, blood-feeding, and oviposition, facilitating their adaptation into separate time-niches (7, 8), but the underlying molecular mechanism for the heterogenous temporal activity remains to be explored." is not accurate since daily rhythms in mosquitoes' transcriptomes, behavior, and olfactory sensitivity have been the object of several publications. Even though some of them are listed later in the introduction, they contradict the claim made about the knowledge gap. See:

      Rund, S. S., Gentile, J. E., & Duffield, G. E. (2013). Extensive circadian and light regulation of the transcriptome in the malaria mosquito Anopheles gambiae. BMC genomics, 14(1), 1-19

      Rund, S. S., Hou, T. Y., Ward, S. M., Collins, F. H., & Duffield, G. E. (2011). Genome-wide profiling of diel and circadian gene expression in the malaria vector Anopheles gambiae. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 108(32), E421-E430

      Rund, S. S., Bonar, N. A., Champion, M. M., Ghazi, J. P., Houk, C. M., Leming, M. T., ... & Duffield, G. E. (2013). Daily rhythms in antennal protein and olfactory sensitivity in the malaria mosquito Anopheles gambiae. Scientific reports, 3(1), 2494

      Rund, S. S., Lee, S. J., Bush, B. R., & Duffield, G. E. (2012). Strain-and sex-specific differences in daily flight activity and the circadian clock of Anopheles gambiae mosquitoes. Journal of insect physiology, 58(12), 1609-1619

      Leming, M. T., Rund, S. S., Behura, S. K., Duffield, G. E., & O'Tousa, J. E. (2014). A database of circadian and diel rhythmic gene expression in the yellow fever mosquito Aedes aegypti. BMC genomics, 15(1), 1-9

      Eilerts, D. F., VanderGiessen, M., Bose, E. A., Broxton, K., & Vinauger, C. (2018). Odor-specific daily rhythms in the olfactory sensitivity and behavior of Aedes aegypti mosquitoes. Insects, 9(4), 147

      Rivas, G. B., Teles-de-Freitas, R., Pavan, M. G., Lima, J. B., Peixoto, A. A., & Bruno, R. V. (2018). Effects of light and temperature on daily activity and clock gene expression in two mosquito disease vectors. Journal of Biological Rhythms, 33(3), 272-288

      The knowledge gap brought up in the next paragraph of the introduction doesn't reflect the questions asked by the experiments: "But, how the pacemaker differentially influences peripheral clock activity present in the olfactory system and modulates olfactory sensitivity has not been studied in detail." Specifically, the control of peripheral clocks by the central pacemaker has not been evaluated here.

      "In vertebrates and invertebrates, it is well documented that circadian phase-dependent training can influence olfactory memory acquisition and consolidation of brain functions" should also cite work on cockroaches and kissing bugs:

      Lubinski, A. J., & Page, T. L. (2016). The optic lobes regulate circadian rhythms of olfactory learning and memory in the cockroach. Journal of Biological Rhythms, 31(2), 161-169

      Page, T. L. (2009). Circadian regulation of olfaction and olfactory learning in the cockroach Leucophaea maderae. Sleep and Biological Rhythms, 7, 152-161

      Vinauger, C., & Lazzari, C. R. (2015). Circadian modulation of learning ability in a disease vector insect, Rhodnius prolixus. Journal of Experimental Biology, 218(19), 3110-3117

      The sentence: "Previous studies showed that synaptic plasticity and memory are significantly influenced by the strength and number of synaptic connections (43, 44)." should be nuanced as the role of neuropeptides such as dopamine has also been showed to influence learning and memory in mosquitoes:

      Vinauger, C., Lahondère, C., Wolff, G. H., Locke, L. T., Liaw, J. E., Parrish, J. Z., ... & Riffell, J. A. (2018). Modulation of host learning in Aedes aegypti mosquitoes. Current Biology, 28(3), 333-344

      Wolff, G. H., Lahondère, C., Vinauger, C., Rylance, E., & Riffell, J. A. (2023). Neuromodulation and differential learning across mosquito species. Proceedings of the Royal Society B, 290(1990), 20222118

      Overall, the paragraph dealing with the idea that "circadian phase-dependent training can influence olfactory memory acquisition and consolidation of brain functions" is very confusing. This paragraph discusses mechanisms of learning-induced plasticity but seems to ignore the simplest (most parsimonious) explanations for the circadian regulation of learning (e.g., time-dependent expression of genes involved in memory consolidation). In addition, the sentence quoted above is circumvoluted to simply say that training at different times of the day affects memory acquisition and consolidation. Although the authors did look at one gene involved in neural function, learning, memory, or circadian effects were not analyzed in this study. Please reconsider the relevance of the paragraph.

      The sentence: "But, how the brain of mosquitoes entrains circadian inputs and modulates transcriptional responses that consequently contribute to remodel plastic memory, is unknown." should be rephrased. First, it should be "entrains TO circadian inputs", and second, it suggests that the study will be investigating circadian modulation of learning and memory, which is not the case. Furthermore, the term "remodel plastic memory" is unclear and doesn't seem to relate to any specific cellular or neural processes.

      Given the differences in mosquito chronobiology observed even between strains, why perform the RNAi and EAGs on a different species of Anopheles than the one used for the RNAseq (or vice versa)?

      Results

      "As reported earlier, a significant upregulation of period and timeless during ZT12-ZT18 was observed in both species (Figure 1C)." Please provide effect size and summary statistics.

      "Next, the distribution of peak transcriptional changes in both An. culicifacies and Ae. aegypti was assessed through differential gene-expression analysis. Noticeably, An. culicifacies showed a higher abundance of differentially expressed olfactory genes (Figure 1D)" Please provide effect size and summary statistics.

      "Taken together, the data suggests that the nocturnal An. culicifacies may possess a more stringent circadian molecular rhythm in peripheral olfactory and brain tissues." What do the authors mean by "stringent"? At this point, this should be stated as a working hypothesis, as the statement is not backed up by the data. It is possible that the fewer differentially expressed genes of Aedes aegypti are more central to regulatory networks and cascade into more "stringent" rhythmic control of activities and rhythms.

      The section title: "Circadian cycle differentially and predominantly expresses olfaction-associated detoxification genes in Anopheles and Aedes" doesn't make sense. The expression of genes can be modulated by circadian rhythms, but cycles don't express genes. Please rephrase. In addition, this whole section deals with "circadian rhythms" while no experiment has been conducted under constant conditions. The observed daily variations are therefore diel rhythms until their persistence under constant conditions is established.

      "The downregulated genes of Ae. aegypti did not show any functional categories probably due to the limited transcriptional change." Could the authors explain if this is actually the phenomenon or due to a lack of temporal resolution in the study design (i.e., 4 time points)?

      "a GO-enrichment analysis was unable to track any change in the response-to-stimulus or odorant binding category of genes (including OBPs, CSPs, and olfactory receptors)." This finding doesn't corroborate the statements made previously and doesn't align with previously published studies. Is it due to pitfalls in the study design?

      "In contrast, three different clusters of OBP genes in Ae. aegypti showed a time-of-day dependent distinct peak in expression starting from ZT0-ZT12 (Figure 2F)." Please provide summary statistics.

      "In the case of An. gambiae, the amplitudes of odor-evoked responses were significantly influenced by the doses of all the odorants tested (repeated measure ANOVA, p {less than or equal to} 2e-16) (Figure S4B)." Did the authors use a positive control for the EAGs? How did the authors normalize the responses across the two species? Given the way the data is presented, how were the data normalized to allow inter-species comparisons? In addition, It is highly unlikely that all the mosquito preps used in the EAG assay responded to all the odors tested. If that was the case, then the dataset includes missing data for certain odors and time points. We believe the authors have ensured there are at least a certain number of responses per odor and time point combinations. If this is true, repeated measures ANOVA is not suited for analyzing this data because this statistical technique requires all repeated measures within and across preps without missing values. Also, the authors need to correct the summary statistics for multiple comparisons within this framework to avoid inflating type-I errors. Has this been done?

      "Ae. aegypti was found to be most sensitive to all the odorants (4-methylphenol, β-ocimine, E2-nonenal, benzaldehyde, nonanal, and 3-octanol) during ZT18-20 except sulcatone (Figure 3C - 3H)." Although some of these chemicals are associated with plants and Ae. aegypti is suspected to sugar feed at night, how do the authors explain that the peak olfactory sensitivity occurs at night for compounds such as nonanal? It would be interesting to discuss how these results compare to previous studies such as:

      Eilerts, D. F., VanderGiessen, M., Bose, E. A., Broxton, K., & Vinauger, C. (2018). Odor-specific daily rhythms in the olfactory sensitivity and behavior of Aedes aegypti mosquitoes. Insects, 9(4), 147

      "Additionally, our principal components analysis also illustrates that most loadings of relative EAG responses are higher towards the Anopheles observations (Figure S4C)." The meaning of this sentence is unclear? Please clarify.

      "Taken together these data indicate that An. gambiae may exhibit higher antennal sensitivity to at least five different odorants tested, as compared to Ae. aegypti." As mentioned above, how did the authors normalized across species to allow comparisons? If not normalized, how do you ensure that higher response magnitudes correlate with higher olfactory sensitivity, given potential differences in the morphology or size differences between the two species? Furthermore, An. gambiae has been exclusively used in the EAG assay. Besides the lack of a justification for using a species other than An. culicifacies, the authors have interpreted the EAG results under the assumption that the olfactory sensitivities of An. gambiae and An. culicifacies are comparable. This, however, is a major caveat in the experiment design, given previous studies (indicated below) have reported species-specific variations in olfactory sensitivity. In its present form, the EAG data from An. gambiae is not a piece of appropriate evidence that the authors could use to complement or substantiate the findings from other aspects of this study on An. culicifacies.

      i. Wheelwright, M., Whittle, C. R., & Riabinina, O. (2021). Olfactory systems across mosquito species. Cell and Tissue Research, 383(1), 75-90.

      ii. Wooding, M., Naudé, Y., Rohwer, E., & Bouwer, M. (2020). Controlling mosquitoes with semiochemicals: a review. Parasites & Vectors, 13, 1-20.

      iii. Gupta, A., Singh, S. S., Mittal, A. M., Singh, P., Goyal, S., Kannan, K. R., ... & Gupta, N. (2022). Mosquito Olfactory Response Ensemble enables pattern discovery by curating a behavioral and electrophysiological response database. Iscience, 25(3).

      "Similar to An. gambiae, a comparatively high amplitude response was also observed in An. stephensi (Figure S4D)." This is interesting but what would be even more relevant to the present study is to discuss how the time-dependent responses compare between the two Anopheles species.

      The paragraph titled "Daily temporal modulation of neuronal serine protease impacts mosquito's olfactory sensitivity" is confusing because the authors move on to test the effect of knocking down a serine protease gene (found to be differentially expressed throughout the day) on olfactory sensitivity. While this is interesting in and of itself, the link between the role of this gene in learning-induced plasticity, the circadian modulation of "brain functions" and olfactory sensitivity is 1) unclear and 2) not explicitly tested. We agree with the authors that what has been tested is "the effect of neuronal serine protease on circadian-dependent olfactory responses," but the two paragraphs leading to it seem to be extrapolating functional links that have yet to be determined. In this context, their conclusions that "Our finding highlights that daily temporal modulation of neuronal serine-protease may have important functions in the maintenance of brain homeostasis and olfactory odor responses." is misleading because although they used the hypothetical "may", the link between the temporal modulation of one serine protease gene and the maintenance of brain homeostasis is not explicitly tested here.

      Discussion

      The first sentence of the discussion: "In this study, we provide initial evidence that the daily rhythmic change in the olfactory sensitivity of mosquitoes is tuned with the temporal modulation of molecular factors involved in the initial biochemical process of odor detection i.e., peri-receptor events" is not true since studies from Rund and Duffield previously revealed the daily modulation of OBP gene expression. It also contradicts the next sentence: "The findings of circadian-dependent elevation of xenobiotic metabolizing enzymes in the olfactory system of both Ae. aegypti and An. culicifacies are consistent with previous literature (26, 31), and we postulate that these proteins may contribute to the regulation of odorant detection in mosquitoes."

      The use of "circadian" in the discussion of the results is also misleading as only diel rhythms were evaluated in the present study.

      "Given the potentially larger odor space in mosquitoes (like other hematophagous insects) (16, 58)." This is not really what these references show.

      "Given the potentially larger odor space in mosquitoes (like other hematophagous insects) (16, 58), it can be hypothesized that detection of any specific signal in such a noisy environment, mosquitoes may have evolved a sophisticated mechanism for rapid (i) odor mobilization and (ii) odorant clearance, to prevent anosmia (24)." One could argue that this is a requirement for all insects, regardless of the size of their olfactory repertoire.

      "Taken together, we hypothesize that circadian-dependent activation of the peri-receptor events may modulate olfactory sensitivity and are key for the onset of peak navigation time in each mosquito species." This is not entirely accurate since spontaneous locomotor activity rhythms are also observed in the absence of olfactory stimulation. While "navigation" does imply olfactory-guided behaviors, "peak navigation time" appears to be driven by other processes. See, for example, all studies testing mosquito activity rhythms in locomotor activity monitors.

      "Due to technical limitations, and considering the substantial data on the circadian-dependent molecular rhythmicity" please clarify what the technical limitations were. Is this something that prevented the authors specifically, or something tied to mosquito biology and would prevent anybody from doing it? Also, why couldn't the transcriptomic analysis be performed on An. gambiae?

      "In contrast to An. gambiae, the time-dose interactions had a higher significant impact on the antennal sensitivity of Ae. aegypti. An. gambiae showed a conserved pattern in the daily rhythm of olfactory sensitivity, peaking at ZT1-3 and ZT18-20." These two sentences are very confusing. Doesn't it simply mean that the co-variation is not linear or not the same across odors? In addition, what does it mean for a pattern to be more conserved? How can one conclude about the "conserved" nature of a pattern by looking at time-dependent variations in dose-response curves?

      "Together these data, we interpret that mosquito's olfactory sensitivity possibly does not follow a fixed temporal trait" is unclear and suggests that the authors are discussing global versus odor-specific rhythms. Please rephrase.

      "Moreover, we hypothesize that under standard insectary conditions, mosquitoes may not need to exhibit foraging flight activity either for nectar or blood, and during the time course, it may minimize their olfactory rhythm, which is obligately required for wild mosquitoes." This hypothesis is not supported by the results of the study and contradicts work by others (Rund et al., Eilerts et al., Gentile et., etc).

      The same comment applies to "Therefore, it is reasonable to think that the mosquitoes used for EAG studies may have adapted well under insectary settings and, hence carry weak olfactory rhythm." as this statement is not supported by results of the present study or comparisons of the results to previous studies based on field-caught mosquitoes. Although it is an interesting question to ask in the future, it should be stated as a future research avenue rather than a working hypothesis that results from the present study.

      "Aedes aegypti displayed a peak in antennal sensitivity at ZT18-20 to the higher concentrations of plant and vertebrate host-associated odorants tested. Given the time-of-day dependent multiple peaks (at ZT6-8 and ZT18-20 for benzaldehyde and at ZT12-14 and ZT18-20 for nonanal) in antennal sensitivity to different odorants, our data supports the previous observation of bimodal activity pattern of Ae. aegypti (50)." Rephrase by saying that results are "aligned with the previous observations of bimodal activity". Olfactory rhythms don't "support" the activity patterns because olfactory processes and spontaneous locomotor activity are independent processes.

      "our preliminary data indicate that Anopheles spp. may possess comparatively higher olfactory sensitivity to a substantial number of odorants as compared to Aedes spp." Consider removing this sentence unless the way the data has been normalized to allow for comparisons between species is clarified.

      In "A significant decrease in odorant sensitivity for all the volatile odors tested in the CYP450-silenced Ae. aegypti," please change "silenced" to "reduced" because RNAi doesn't silence (i.e. knockout) gene expression.

      The title "Neuronal serine protease consolidates brain function and olfactory detection" is extremely misleading. Do the authors refer to memory consolidation, which has not been tested here? What is brain function consolidation??

      The reference used in "Despite their tiny brain size, mosquitoes, like other insects, have an incredible power to process and memorize circadian-guided olfactory information (7)." is not appropriate. Also, "circadian-guided" is unclear. Consider replacing it with "circadian-gated".

      What is the "the homeostatic process of the brain"?

      "the temporal oscillation of the sleep-wake cycle of any organism is managed by the encoding of experience during wake, and consolidation of synaptic change during inactive (sleep) phases, respectively (70)." By experience, do the authors refer to learning? This seems out of topic as this process has not been evaluated here.

      "We speculate that after the commencement of the active phase (ZT6-ZT12), the serine peptidase family of proteins in the brain of Ae. aegypti mosquitoes may play an important function in consolidating brain actions (after ZT12) and aid circadian-dependent memory formation." The value of this statement is unclear. Circadian-dependent memory formation is not being evaluated here, and the results from the present study do not directly support this speculation, also because other processes involved in memory formation are not evaluated here. This seems at odds with the literature on learning and memory.

      "Subsequent work on electrophysiological and neuro-imaging studies are needed to demonstrate the role of neuronal-serine proteases in the reorganization of perisynaptic structure." Sure. But the link between "the role of neuronal-serine proteases in the reorganization of perisynaptic structure" and rhythms in olfactory sensitivity is unclear.

      As a general comment, EAGs seem inappropriate to evaluate the effect of the central-brain processing in the regulation of peripheral olfactory processes. This is a critical comment that needs to be considered by the authors and clarified in the manuscript. If rhythms of central brain processes are important for olfactory-guided behaviors, these should be evaluated at the level of the central brain or via behavioral metrics. The effect of the RNAi knockdowns on peripheral sensitivity is interesting, but its link with central processes is unclear and doesn't support the speculations made by the authors about learning and memory.

      Methods

      No explanations are provided for how the EAG data are normalized to allow comparisons between species.

      Figures

      Figure 1: The daily rhythm depicted in A, are not representative of the actual profiles. See: Benoit, J. B., & Vinauger, C. (2022). Chapter 32: Chronobiology of blood-feeding arthropods: influences on their role as disease vectors. In Sensory ecology of disease vectors (pp. 815-849). Wageningen Academic Publishers. Or any other paper on mosquito activity rhythms.

      Figure 3 and 4: The EAG results are plotted twice. This is redundant and misleading as it makes the reader think there is more data than actually presented.

      Figure 5: Please clarify the sample size for each panel. In C - F, what would be used as a reference? In other words, what is a Relative EAG Response of 1? And if it is "relative", are the units really mV? In E and F, it would be great to show how the Ethanol control compares to the no solvent condition. This could be placed in supplementary materials.

      Figures 5 and 6, given the dispersion in the EAG data, the treatments where N=40 appear robust, but the interpretation of results from treatments where N=6 may be limited due to the low sample size. This limitation is visible in Figure 5F, for example, where ABT-Aceto is different from Cont-Aceta but not PBO-Aceto because one individual shows a higher response.

      Figure S6: how does this support that synaptic plasticity is influenced by "Time-of-day dependent modulation of serine protease genes in the brain"?

      Minor comments

      What do the authors mean by "consolidation of brain functions"? Memory consolidation? Please clarify.

      In "Similar to previous studies (26), the expression of a limited number of rhythmic genes was visualized in Ae. aegypti" please replace "visualized" with "observed".

      Figure 2A, please clarify in the caption what FDR stands for.

      In "To further establish this proof-of-concept in An. gambiae, three potent CYP450 inhibitors, aminobenzotriazole(52), piperonyl butoxide(53), and schinandrin A (54), was applied topically on the head capsule of 5-6-day-old female mosquitoes" replace "was applied" with "were applied".

      "Interestingly, our species-time interaction studies revealed that An. gambiae exhibits time-of-day dependent significantly high antennal sensitivity to at least four chemical odorants compared to Ae. aegypti, except phenol." is unclear. Please reword.

      In "Similar observations were also noticed with An. stephensi." replace "noticed" with "made".

      Significance

      Such a study has the potential to be valuable for the field, but its value and significance are hindered by an accumulation of overstatements, the fact that prior work in the field has been minimized or omitted, and a lack of support for the stated conclusions.

      In this context, the advances are only slightly incremental compared to the work produced by Rund et al., and the mechanistic hypotheses emitted to link the genes selected for knockdown experiments and olfactory sensitivity are not clearly supported by the evidence presented here. The main strength of the paper is to show the role of CYP450 in olfactory sensitivity.

      The audience is fairly broad and includes insect neuro-ethologists, molecular biologists, and chronobiologists.

      Our field of expertise:

      • Mosquito chemosensation
      • Learning and memory
      • Chronobiology
      • Electrophysiology
      • Medical entomology
    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment

      This paper represents important findings when identifying untargeted metabolomics and its differences between metabolomes of different biological samples. GromovMatcher is the fantasy name for the soft development. The main idea behind it is built on the assumption of featuring and matching complex datasets. Although the manuscript reflects a solid analysis, it remains incomplete for validation with putative non-curated datasets.

      We are grateful to the eLife editor for taking the time and effort to assess our manuscript.

      We are however unsure of what the editor means by “it remains incomplete for validation with putative non-curated datasets”. As noted by Reviewer 2, manually curated datasets that could be used for validation are scarce. Most publicly available datasets do not contain sufficient information to establish a ground truth matching on which GromovMatcher, M2S, or metabCombiner can be tested. Even in the case where such a ground truth matching can be established, it must be performed by-hand through a manual matching process which is extremely time-consuming and requires very specific expertise. This, in our opinion, only highlights the need for automatic alignment methods such as metabCombiner, M2S or GromovMatcher.

      We do agree that the performance of GromovMatcher (and its competitors) needs to be validated further, and we plan to continue validating GromovMatcher as additional data becomes available in EPIC and other cohorts. With that in mind, the lack of publicly available validation data is the reason why we conducted such an extensive simulation study, arguably more comprehensive than previous validations, exploring challenging settings that we believe reflect real-life scenarios (main text “Validation on ground-truth data” and Appendix 3). We would like to stress that this allows us to highlight previously ignored limitations of the previously published methods, metabCombiner and M2S.

      We wish to thank the editor and reviewers for their time and efforts in reviewing our manuscript which led to many significant additions to our paper. Namely we:

      • Performed an additional sensitivity analysis (Appendix 3) exploring how an imbalance in the number of features or samples between two studies being matched (e.g. the dataset split), affects the quality of matchings found by GromovMatcher, metabCombiner, and M2S.

      • Investigated how changing or removing the reference dataset (Appendix 5) in the EPIC study (main text “Application to EPIC data”), affects the results of GromovMatcher.

      • Improved alignment matrix visualizations in Fig. 3a for all four methods tested on the validation data, to highlight more clearly which feature matches were correctly identified or missed.

      The revised paper is uploaded as the file “main_elife_revision.pdf” where all revisions are highlighted in blue as well as a copy “main_elife_revision_nohighlights.pdf” where revisions are not highlighted.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors have implemented the Optimal Transport algorithm in GromovMatcher for comparing LC/MS features from different datasets. This paper gains significance in the proteomics field for performing meta-analysis of LC/MS data.

      Strengths:

      The main strength is that GromovMatcher achieves significant performance metrics compared to other existing methods. The authors have done extensive comparisons to claim that GromovMatcher performs well.

      Weaknesses:

      There are two weaknesses.

      (1) When the number of features is reduced the precision drops to ~0.8.

      We would like to clarify that this drop in precision occurs in the challenging setting where only a small proportion of metabolites are shared between both datasets (e.g., the overlap – or proportion of shared features - was 25% in our simulation study). When two untargeted metabolic datasets share only 25% of their features, this is a challenging setting for any automated matching method as the vast majority 75% of the features in both datasets must remain unmatched.

      In such settings, the reviewer correctly observes that the precision of GromovMatcher algorithms (GM and GMT) drops within the range of 0.80 - 0.85 (Figure 3b, top left panel). Such a precision of 0.8 or larger is still competitive compared with the alternative methods MetabCombiner (mC) and M2S whose precisions drop below 0.8 (see main text Fig. 3b, top left panel).

      Precision is measured as the number of metabolite pairs correctly matched divided by all matches identified by a method. In other words, even in the challenging setting when the number of shared features (true matches) between both datasets is small (e.g. low 25% overlap), upwards of 80% of the feature matches found by GromovMatcher are correct which is a very encouraging result.

      (2) How applicable is the method for other non-human datasets?

      We thank the reviewer for raising this question. The crux of the matter concerning the application to animal data revolves around the hypothesis that correlations between metabolites in two different studies are preserved. Theoretically, the metabolome operates under similar principles in humans, governed by an underlying network of biochemical reactions. Consequently, in comparable human populations, the GM hypothesis is likely to hold to some extent.

      However, in practice, application to animal data is more complicated. Animal studies tend to have smaller sample sizes and often stem from intervention-driven scenarios, such as mice subjected to specific diets or chemicals. This results in deliberate alterations in metabolic structures which makes finding two comparable animal studies less likely. To investigate the reviewer’s question, we have searched through the two predominant LC-MS dataset repositories (MetaboLights and NIH Metabolomics Workbench) but did not find any pairs of comparable animal studies due to the reasons mentioned above. One potential strategy to navigate this issue could entail regressing the metabolic intensities against the variables that notably differ between the two animal populations and running GM using the residual intensities. This would be an interesting direction for future research and additional validation would be needed to test the robustness of GM in this setting.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The goal of untargeted metabolomics is to identify differences between metabolomes of different biological samples. Untargeted metabolomics identifies features with specific mass-to-charge ratio (m/z) and retention time (RT). Matching those to specific metabolites based on the model compounds from databases is laborious and not always possible, which is why methods for comparing samples on the level of unmatched features are crucial.

      The main purpose of the GromovMatcher method presented here is to merge and compare untargeted metabolomes from different experiments. These larger datasets could then be used to advance biological analyses, for example, for the identification of metabolic disease markers. The main problem that complicates merging different experiments is m/z and RT vary slightly for the same feature (metabolite).

      The main idea behind the GromovMatcher is built on the assumption that if two features match between two datasets (that feature I from dataset 1 matches feature j from dataset 2, and feature k from dataset 1 matches feature l from dataset 2), then the correlations or distances between the two features within each of the datasets (i and k, and j and l) will be similar. The authors then use the Gromov-Wasserstein method to find the best matches matrix from these data.

      The variation in m/z between the same features in different experiments is a user-defined value and it is initially set to 0.01 ppm. There is no clear limit for RT deviations, so the method estimates a non-linear deviation (drift) of RT between two studies. GromovMatcher estimates the drift between the two studies and then discards the matching pairs where the drift would deviate significantly from the estimate. It learns the drift from a weighted spline regression.

      The authors validate the’performance of their GromovMatcher method by a validation experiment using a dataset of cord blood. They use 20 different splits and compare the GromovMatcher (both its GM and GMT iterations, whereby the GMT version uses the deviation from estimated RT drift to filter the matching matrix) with two other matching methods: M2S and metabCombiner.

      The second validation was done using a (scaled and centered) dataset of metabolics from cancer datasets from the EPIC cohort that was manually matched by an expert. This dataset was also used to show that using automatic methods can identify more features that are associated with a particular group of samples than what was found by manual matching. Specifically, the authors identify additional features connected to alcohol consumption.

      Strengths:

      I see the main strength of this work in its combination of all levels of information (m/z, RT, and higher-order information on correlations between features) and using each of the types of information in a way that is appropriate for the measure. The most innovative aspect is using the Gromov-Wasserstein method to match the features based on distance matrices.

      We thank the reviewer for acknowledging this strength of our proposed GromovMatcher method.

      The authors of the paper identify two main shortcomings with previously established methods that attempt to match features from different experiments: a) all other methods require fine-tuning of user-defined parameters, and, more importantly, b) do not consider correlations between features. The main strength of the GromovMatcher is that it incorporates the information on distances between the features (in addition to also using m/z and RT).

      Weaknesses:

      The first, minor, weakness I could identify is that there seem not to be plenty of manually curated datasets that could be used for validation.

      We thank the reviewer for raising this issue concerning manually curated validation data.

      Manually curated datasets available for validation purposes are indeed scarce. This stems from the laborious nature of matching features across diverse studies, hence the need for automatic matching methods. Our future strategy involves further validation of the GromovMatcher approach as more data becomes accessible in EPIC and other cohorts.

      The scarcity of real-life publicly available datasets that can be used for validation purpose is the reason why we conducted an extensive simulation study (main text “Validation on ground-truth data” and Appendix 3). It is notably thorough, arguably more comprehensive than previous validations, utilizes real-life untargeted data, and imitates situations where data originates from distinct untargeted metabolomics studies, complete with realistic noise parameters encompassing RT, mz, and feature intensities. Our validation study comprehensively explores the performance of GromovMatcher, M2S, and metabCombiner, including in challenging realistic settings where there is a nonlinear drift in retention times, varying levels of feature overlaps between studies, normalizations of feature intensities, as well as imbalances in the number of features and samples present in the studies being matched.

      The second is also emphasized by the authors in the discussion. Namely, the method as it is set up now can be directly used only to compare two datasets.

      This is indeed a limitation that is common to all three methods considered in this paper. However, all these methods, GromovMatcher, M2S, and metabCombiner, can still be used to compare and pool multiple datasets using a multi-step procedure. Namely, this can be done by designating a 'reference' dataset and aligning all studies to it one by one. We take this exact approach in our paper when aligning the CS, HCC, and PC studies of the EPIC data in positive mode (main text “Application to EPIC data”). Namely, the HCC and PC studies are both aligned to the CS study by running GromovMatcher twice, and after obtaining these matchings, our analysis is restricted to those features in HCC and PC that are present in the CS study.

      After the reviewer’s comment, we have added an additional sensitivity analysis in Appendix 5, to compare the results produced by GromovMatcher depending on the choice of the reference study. Namely, setting the reference study to either the CS study or the HCC study, GromovMatcher identified 706 and 708 common features respectively, with an overlap of 640 features. This highlights that the choice of reference does matter to some extent. In our original analysis of the EPIC data, choosing CS as the reference was motivated by the fact that CS had the largest sample size (compared to HCC and PC) and a subset of features in HCC and PC were already matched by experts to the CS study which we could use for validation (see Loftfield et al. (2021). J Natl Cancer Inst.).

      As mentioned in the discussion section of our manuscript, the recently proposed multimarginal Gromov-Wasserstein algorithm (Beier, F., Beinert, R., & Steidl, G. (2023). Information and Inference) could potentially allow multiple metabolomic studies to be matched using one optimization routine (e.g. without the designation of a ‘reference study’ for matching). We have not explored this possibility in depth yet as fast numerical methods for multimarginal GW are still in their infancy. Also, such multimarginal methods rely on the computation and storage of coupling or matching matrices that are tensors where the number of dimensions is equal to the number of datasets being matched. Therefore, multimarginal methods have large memory costs, which currently precludes their application for the matching of multiple metabolomics datasets.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) I was struggling with the representation used in Figure 3a. The gray points overlayed over the green points on a straight line are difficult to visually quantify. I found that my eyes mainly focused on the pattern of the red dots.

      Figure 3a has been modified to improve visual clarity. Namely we have consistently reordered the rows and columns of the coupling matrices such that the true positive matches (green points) are spatially separated from the false negative matches (red points). Now the fraction of true positive and false negative matches can be appreciated much more clearly by eye in Figure 3a.

      (2) I would also like to add the caveat that I cannot judge whether the authors used the other two methods that they compare with GromovMatcher (the M2S and metabCombiner) optimally. But I also do not see any evidence that they did not. Hopefully one of the other reviewers can address that.

      We appreciate the reviewer for highlighting the comparison of our approach GromovMatcher to the other existing methods M2S and MetabCombiner (mC). Both M2S and mC depend on tens of hyperparameters each with a discrete or continuous set of values that must be properly optimized to infer accurate matchings between dataset features. We detail in Appendix 2 how the hyperparameters of the M2S and mC methods are optimally tuned to achieve the best possible performance on the validation ground-truth data. Namely, both in the simulation study and on EPIC data, we grid-search over all important hyperparameters in the M2S and mC methods and choose those parameter combinations that result in the highest F1 score, averaged over 20 random trials. We remark that no such hyperparameter optimization was performed for our GromovMatcher method. As shown in Figures 3 and 4 of the main text, we find that GromovMatcher outperforms M2S and mC even in these cases when the hyperparameters of M2S and mC are tuned to predict optimal feature matchings.

      Given the large combinatorial space of hyperparameter choices, we believe we have thoroughly tested the important hyperparameter combinations that users of M2S and mC would be likely to explore in their own research.

      (3) Validation

      (3a) The first validation is done on a split cord blood dataset. I could not clearly see from the paper how sensitive the result is to the dataset split.

      We are grateful for the reviewer’s question and have included new experiments in Appendix 3 which show how the results of GromovMatcher, M2S, and MetabCombiner are affected by the dataset split. In our original manuscript, our validation ground-truth experiment began with an untargeted metabolomic dataset consisting of n = 499 samples and p = 4,712 metabolic features which is split equally into two datasets consisting of an equal number of samples n1 = n2 and an equal number of metabolic features p1 = p2. The features of these equal-sized datasets would then be matched by our method.

      Now in Appendix 3 (Figs. 1-3) we show the sensitivity of all three alignment methods (GromovMatcher, M2S, and MetabCombiner) when we vary the fraction of samples in dataset 1 over dataset 2 given by n1/ n2, the overlap in shared features between both datasets, and the fraction of metabolic features in dataset 1 that are not present in dataset 2 which affects the feature sizes of both datasets p1/ p2. We find that all alignment methods are able to maintain a consistent precision and recall score when these three dataset split parameters are varied. GromovMatcher achieves a higher precision and recall than M2S and MetabCombiner for all choices of dataset split, agreeing with the validation experiment results from the main text (see main text Fig. 3). All three methods tested decrease in precision (without dropping in recall) when dataset 1 and dataset 2 contain an equal number of unshared features (e.g. when p1 = p2). Therefore, these sensitivity experiments in Appendix 3 show that our results in the main text are performed in the most challenging setting for the dataset split.

      (3b) The second validation was done using a (scaled and centered) dataset of metabolics from cancer datasets from the EPIC cohort that was manually matched by an expert. Here the authors observe that metabCombiner has good precision, but lags in recall. And M2S has a very similar performance to GromovMatcher. The authors explain this by the fact that the drift in RT between the two experiments is mostly linear and thus does not affect the M2S performance. Can the authors find a different validation dataset where the drift in RT is not linear? If yes, it would be interesting to add it to the paper.

      We thank the reviewer for raising this question. As mentioned above, curated validation datasets such as the EPIC study analyzed in our paper are very rare and we do not currently have a validation study with a nonlinear retention time drift.

      Nevertheless, we performed an additional analysis of simulated data (reported in Appendix 2 – “M2S hyperparameter experiments” and Appendix 2 – Table 1) that demonstrates the decrease in M2S performance when the simulated drift is nonlinear. As presented in Appendix 2 – Table 1, in a low overlap setting with a linear drift which corresponds to the EPIC data, precision and recall were 0.831 and 0.934 respectively, instead of 0.769 and 0.905 in the main analysis where the drift was nonlinear.

    2. Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary

      The goal of untargeted metabolomics is to identify differences between metabolomes of different biological samples.

      Untargeted metabolomics identifies features with specific mass-to-charge-ratio (m/z) and retention time (RT). Matching those to specific metabolites based on the model compounds from databases is laborious and not always possible, which is why methods for comparing samples on the level of unmatched features are crucial.<br /> The main purpose of the GromovMatcher method presented here is to merge and compare untargeted metabolomes from different experiments. These larger datasets could then be used to advance biological analyses, for example, for identification of metabolic disease markers.

      The main problem that complicates merging different experiments is that m/z and RT vary slightly for the same feature (metabolite).

      The main idea behind the GromovMatcher is built on the assumption that if two features match between two datasets (that feature i from dataset 1 matches feature j from dataset 2, and feature k from dataset 1 matches feature l from dataset 2), then the correlations or distances between the two features within each of the datasets (i and k, and j and l) will be similar. The authors then use the Gromov-Wasserstein method to find the best matches matrix from these data.

      The variation in m/z between the same features in different experiments is a user-defined value and it is initially set to 0.01 ppm. There is no clear limit for RT deviations, so the method estimates a non-linear deviation (drift) of RT between two studies. GromovMatcher estimates the drift between two studies, and then discards the matching pairs where the drift would deviate significantly from the estimate. It learns the drift from a weighted spline regression.

      The authors validate the performance of their GromovMatcher method using a dataset of cord blood. They use 20 different splits and compare the GromovMatcher (both its GM and GMT iterations, whereby GMT version uses the deviation from estimated RT drift to filter the matching matrix) with two other matching methods: M2S and metabCombiner.

      The second validation was done using a (scaled and centered) dataset of metabolics from cancer datasets from the EPIC cohort that were manually matched by an expert. This dataset was also used to show that using automated methods can identify more features that are associated with a particular group of samples than what was found by manual matching. Specifically, the authors identify additional features connected to alcohol consumption.

      Strengths:

      I see the main strength of this work in its combination of all levels of information (m/z, RT, and higher-order information on correlations between features) and using each of the types of information in a way that is appropriate for the measure. The most innovative aspect is using the Gromov-Wasserstein method to match the features based on distance matrices.

      The authors of the paper identify two main shortcomings with previously established methods that attempt to match features from different experiments: a) all other methods require fine-tuning of user-defined parameters, and, more importantly, b) do not consider correlations between features. The main strength of the GromovMatcher is that it incorporates the information on distances between the features (in addition to also using m/z and RT).

      Weaknesses:

      The main weakness is that there seem not to be enough manually curated datasets that could be used for validation. It will, therefore, be important, for the authors, and the field in general to keep validating and improving their methods if more datasets become available.

      The second weakness, as emphasized by the authors in the discussion is that the method as it is set up now can be directly used only to compare two datasets. I am confident that the authors will successfully implement novel algorithms to address this issue in the future.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Firstly, the authors place a great deal of emphasis on the impact of the Hif1-a inhibitor PX-478. The literature surrounding this inhibitor and its mode of action indicates that it is not a direct inhibitor of activity but that its greatest impact is on the production of Hif1-a. The authors do include another inhibitor as a control, Echinomycin, but it does not appear to be as biologically active and the panel of experiments conducted with this is extremely limited. I would be more comfortable with a full Seahorse experimental panel for Echinomycin, similar to SFig 2.G as performed with PX-478.

      We thank the reviewer for their comment highlighting the different mechanisms of action of the HIF-1α inhibitors used in this article. While echinomycin inhibits the binding of HIF-1α to the hypoxia response element (HRE) thereby blocking HIF-1a DNA binding capability, PX-478 inhibits HIF-1α deubiquitination, decreases HIF-1α mRNA expression, and reduces HIF-1α translation. We have included a paragraph explaining this phenomenon in the new version of the manuscript (page 9). In addition, we extended the panel of experiments performed with echinomycin, which confirmed a marked inhibition of the glycolytic pathway when DCs were stimulated with irradiated Mtb in the presence of echinomycin as assessed by SCENITH (new Figure S3H).

      Similarly, it would be of value to have Seahorse profiling that directly excludes FAO from the metabolic profile through the use of Etomoxir as an inhibitor of fatty acid oxidation, which one would assume would have no impact on the metabolic response.

      In order to estimate the contribution of FAO towards fueling protein synthesis in DCs stimulated with iMtb, the FAO inhibitor etomoxir was incorporated to the SCENITH method as previously described (Adamik et al., 2022). Overall, FAO dependence was found to be less than 10% in DCs, regardless of their activation state. While mitochondrial dependence is reduced after iMtb stimulation, there is no difference in FAO dependence, suggesting that OXPHOS is primarily driven by glucose in iMtb-stimulated cells. This is consistent with HIF1α-induced increase of glucose metabolism-related genes. We have adjusted the results section to include this new result (new Figure S1).

      Aside from these minor points, I believe this to be a rigorous study.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      In Fig. 1 and Fig. 2, the authors conclude that Mtb rewires the metabolism of Mo-DCs and induces both glycolysis and OXPHOS. The data shows that infection with iMtb or Mtb increases glucose uptake and lactate release, suggesting an increase in glycolysis. However, an increase in lactate is not a measure of glycolysis. Lactate is a byproduct of glycolysis; the end product of glycolysis is pyruvate.

      We are grateful for the reviewer's comment, as it gives us the opportunity to explain the conceptual framework on which we based our study. Traditionally, pyruvate has been considered to be the end product of glycolysis when oxygen is present and lactate the end product under hypoxic conditions. Numerous studies have shown that lactate is produced even under aerobic conditions (Brooks, 2018). Therefore, we frame this work in accordance with this view that states that glycolysis begins with glucose as its substrate and terminates with the production of lactate as its main end product (Rogatzki, Ferguson, Goodwin, & Gladden, 2015; Schurr, 2023; Schurr & Schurr, 2017).

      Secondly, since the authors have access to the Agilent Extracellular Flux Analyzer, they should have performed detailed ECAR/OCR measurements to conclusively demonstrate that both glycolysis and OXPHOS are increased in Mo. This is especially important for OXPHOS because the only readout shown for OXPHOS is an increase in mitochondrial mass (figure 1 G, H), which is not acceptable. Overall, the data does not indicate that Mtb triggers OXPHOS in the dendritic cells. It only indicates dead iMtb increases the mass of mitochondria in DCs.

      The reviewer’s advice is well appreciated. However, we would like to clarify what may be a misunderstanding; that is, the assays alluded to by the reviewer were not performed on monocytes but on DCs. As advised by the reviewer, we now include the OCR measurements by Seahorse and describe the figures according to their order of appearance in the new version of the manuscript.

      What happens to the mitochondrial mass when infected with live Mtb?

      In response to the reviewer’s question, we determined the mitochondrial mass in infected DCs with live Mtb. In contrast to DCs treated with irradiated Mtb, those infected with live bacteria showed a clear reduction of their mitochondrial mass (modified Figure 1G). This result indicates that, although both Mtb-infected and irradiated Mtb-exposed DCs show a clear increase in their glycolytic activity, divergent responses are observed in terms of mitochondrial mass.

      It will be best if the authors indicate in the figure headings that dead Mtb was used.

      We agree with the reviewer. For figures 1-3, we applied the term “Mtb” in the figure headings since both irradiated and viable bacteria were used for the corresponding experiments. In figures 4-5, the term “iMtb” (alluding to irradiated Mtb) was used in the figure headings as suggested by the reviewer. For the remaining figures, the term “iMtb” was indicated in their legends when dead bacteria weres used to stimulate DCs.

      E.g., Figure 1F; what does live Mtb do to GLUT1 levels etc etc?

      In response to the reviewer’s question, we included new data about Glut1 expression in DCs infected with live Mtb in the latest version of the manuscript. In line with the increase in glucose uptake shown in figure 1B, we observed an increase in the percentage of Glut1 positive DCs upon Mtb infection (new Figure 1F, lower panels). The increase in Glut1 expression strengthens the notion that DCs activates their glycolytic activity in response to the infection, as demonstrated by the elevated release of lactate, glucose consumption, HIF-1α expression, LDHA expression (Figure 1) and glycolytic activity (Figure 2, SCENITH results with viable Mtb). Therefore, these data strongly support the induction of glycolysis by Mtb (either viable or irradiated) in DCs.

      Also, we found that they were still able to activate CD4+ T cells from PPD+ donors in response to iMtb. This activation of CD4 T cells with iMtb in the presence of a HIF-1alpha inhibitor is expected, as iMtb is dead and not virulent. What happens when the cells are infected with live virulent Mtb?

      We would like to clarify the main purpose of the DC-T cells co-culture assays in the presence of the HIF-1α inhibitors. To characterize the impact of HIF-1α on DC functionality, we assessed the capacity of DCs to activate autologous CD4+ T cells when stimulated with iMtb in the presence of HIF-1α inhibitors. To this end, we used iMtb merely as a source of antigens to load DCs and evaluate the effect of HIF-1α inhibition on the activation of antigen-specific T cell. The use of viable Mtb may introduce confounding factors, such as pathogen-triggered inhibitory mechanisms (e.g., EsxH secretion by Mtb, (Portal-Celhay et al., 2016)), which would prevent us from reaching conclusions about the role of HIF-1α. Thus, we consider that the use of live bacteria for this experiment is out of the scope of this manuscript.

      The authors demonstrated that CD16+ monocytes from TB patients have higher glycolytic capacity than healthy controls Fig 7. The authors should differentiate TB patient monocytes into DCs and measure their bioenergetics to test if infection alters their glycolysis and OXPHOS.

      In agreement with the reviewer, the determination of metabolic pathways in DCs differentiated from monocytes of TB patients is a key aspect of this work. Accordingly, the bioenergetic determinations of DCs generated from monocytes from TB patients versus healthy subjects are now illustrated in Figures 6F (lactate release) and 6G (SCENITH profile).

      In the discussion, the authors state that "pathologically active glycolysis in monocytes from TB patients leads to poor glycolytic induction and migratory capacities of monocyte-derived DCs." However, the data from Fig. 1 and 2 show that treatment with iMtb or Mtb induces glycolysis in MoDCs. How do the authors explain these contrasting results?

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out this issue. Figures 1 and 2 show DCs differentiated from monocytes of healthy donors (HS). In this case, DCs from HS respond to Mtb by inducing a glycolytic and migratory profile. Yet, in the case of monocytes isolated from TB patients, these cells exhibit an early glycolytic profile from the beginning of differentiation, ultimately yielding DCs with low glycolytic capacity and low migratory activity in response to Mtb. We included this explanation in the discussion (page 18) to better clarify this issue.

      Also, the term "pathological" active glycolysis (Introduction and Discussion) is an inappropriate term.

      As requested by the reviewer, we excluded the term “pathological” to describe the phenomenon reported in this study.

      Lastly, it should be shown whether the DCs generated from CD16+ monocyte from TB patients generate tolerogenic and/or aberrant DCs, which have lower glycolytic and migration capacity compared to the CD16- monocyte population. In Figure 7B, the authors should discuss why the CD16+ monocyte population has lower glycolytic capacity compared to CD16- monocytes in healthy donors. Furthermore, in contrast to the TB patients, do DCs generated from CD16+ monocyte in healthy donors have increased glycolytic and migration capacity compared to CD16- monocyte (because these monocytes showed lower glycolytic capacity)? Furthermore, if there is no difference in glycolytic capacity among the three monocyte populations in TB patients, on what basis was it concluded that DCs generated only from the CD16+ monocyte population may be the cause of lower migration capacity? The authors state in Figure 7F that the DMOG pretreatment matches the situation where the Mo-DCs from TB patients showed reduced migration. Did the authors check the Hif-1alpha levels in monocytes obtained from TB patients?

      We appreciate this in-depth analysis by the reviewer because it allows us to clarify some interpretations of the SCENITH results in Figure 7B. It is important to keep in mind that with the SCENITH technique we can only infer about the relative contributions between the metabolic pathways, without alluding to the absolute magnitudes of such contributions. In this regard, it is key to note that the amount of lactate released during the first hours of the TB monocyte culture is much higher than that released by monocytes from healthy subjects (HS, Figure 7A), even when most of monocytes, which are CD14+ CD16-, have comparable glycolytic capacities between HS and TB. Another example to illustrate how to interpret SCENITH results can be found in Figure 2, where a lower mitochondrial dependence is observed in iMtb-stimulated DCs (Figure 2A), while the absolute ATP production associated to OXPHOS is indeed higher as measured by Seahorse (Figure 2D). Therefore, the glycolytic capacity is not a direct readout of the magnitude of glycolysis, but of its contribution to total metabolism. The low levels of lactate released from HS monocytes likely reflects their low activation state and low metabolic activity compared to TB monocytes. In this regard, we have previously demonstrated that monocytes from pulmonary TB patients display an activated phenotype (Balboa et al., 2011). The fact that there is no difference between the glycolytic capacities of TB and HS CD16- monocytes indicates that their proportional contributions to protein synthesis are comparable (again, without inferring about their absolute values, which may be very different).

      Beyond the previous clarification, the reviewer's proposal to isolate subsets of monocytes is a very interesting idea. However, the experimental approach is very difficult based on the amount of blood we can obtain from patients. The cohort of patients included in this work comprises very severe patients and we are given up to 15-20 ml of peripheral blood from each. This volume of blood yields up to 10 million PBMC with approximately 1 million monocytes. If we separate the monocyte subsets, the recovered cells per condition will be insufficient to perform the intended assays.

      Nevertheless, we incorporate new evidence that TB disease is associated with an increased activation and glycolytic profile of circulating CD16+ monocytes.

      i) First, we show that the baseline glycolytic capacity of CD16+ monocytes correlates with time since the onset of TB-related symptoms (new Figure 7C).

      ii) Second, we performed high-throughput GeneSet Enrichment Analysis (GSEA) on transcriptomic data (GEO accession number: GSE185372) of CD14+CD16-, CD14+CD16+ and CD14dimCD16+ monocytes isolated from individuals with active TB, latent TB (IGRA+), as well as from TB negative healthy controls (IGRA-). We found enrichments that, unlike oxidative phosphorylation, glycolysis tends to increase in active TB in both CD14+CD16+ and CD14dimCD16+ monocytes (new Figure 7D).

      iii) We measured the expression of HIF-1α in monocyte subsets by FACS and found that this transcription factor is expressed at higher levels in CD16+ monocyte subsets from TB patients compared to their counterparts from healthy donors (new Figure 8 A). We consider this result justifies the assays shown in Figure 8B-C, in which we prematurely activated HIF-1α in healthy donor monocytes during early differentiation to DCs and measured its impact on the migration of the generated DCs.

      In the Discussion, the authors mention that circulating monocytes from TB patients differentiate from DCs with low immunogenic potential. However, the authors have not shown any immunological defect in any of their data with monocytes from TB patients. In the proxy model mentioned in Figure 7, they have in fact shown that these preconditioned DCs have higher CD86 expression. Can the authors explain/show data to justify the statement in the first paragraph of the Discussion?

      We agree with the reviewer on this observation. Our findings are limited to the generation of DCs with low migratory potential (low chemotactic activity towards CCL21 of DC differentiated from TB patient monocytes shown in figure 6H and of DC generated from pre-conditioned monocytes shown in figure 8C). We have modified that part of the discussion to better clarify this point, replacing migratory with immunogenic.

      The authors should note that oxamate is a competitive inhibitor of the enzyme lactate dehydrogenase and not glycolysis. Also, LDHA catalyzes the conversion from pyruvate to lactate and not the other way around (Results, page 6).

      This comment relates to the first one by the reviewer, in which the dogma of glycolysis was discussed. According to the new conception of glycolysis, it begins with glucose as its substrate and terminates with the production of lactate as its main end product.

      The following statements by the authors on page 6 are incorrect: "Because irradiated and viable Mtb induced comparable activation of glycolysis, we subsequently performed all our assays with irradiated Mtb only in the rest of the study due to biosafety reasons." and: "To our knowledge, this is the first study addressing the metabolic status and migratory activity of Mo-DCs from TB patients."

      We deleted the first sentence and reworded the second sentence as "To our knowledge, this is the first study to address how the metabolic status of monocytes from TB patients influences the migratory activity of further differentiated DCs".

      The Discussion reads as if live Mtb was used in the experiments, which is not the case. This should be corrected.

      We changed Mtb for iMtb when it was the case in the discussion. In some cases, Mtb stimulation was used instead of Mtb infection.

      Minor Comments:

      (1) In Figure 1F legend "Quantification of Glut1+ cells plotted to the right". The underlined part should be "plotted below".

      It was corrected.

      (2) In Figure 1H. Please describe the quantitation method and describe how many cells or the number/size of fields were used to quantitate mitochondria.

      For mitochondrial morphometric analysis, TEM images were quantified with the ImageJ “analyze particles” plugin in thresholded images, with size (μm2) settings from 0.001 to infinite. For quantification, 8–10 cells of random fields (1000x magnification) per condition were analyzed. We included this information in the methods section of the new version of the manuscript.

      (3) Please mention the number of independent experimental repeats for each experimental data set and figure.

      In each figure, the number of independent experiments is indicated by individual dots.

      (4) In Figure 2A legend, "PER; left panel" should be PER; lower panel and "OCR; right panel" should be OCR; upper panel.

      It was corrected.

      References for reviewers

      Adamik, J., Munson, P. V., Hartmann, F. J., Combes, A. J., Pierre, P., Krummel, M. F., … Butterfield, L. H. (2022). Distinct metabolic states guide maturation of inflammatory and tolerogenic dendritic cells. Nature Communications 2022 13:1, 13(1), 1–19. https://doi.org/10.1038/s41467-022-32849-1

      Balboa, L., Romero, M. M., Basile, J. I., Sabio y Garcia, C. A., Schierloh, P., Yokobori, N., … Aleman, M. (2011). Paradoxical role of CD16+CCR2+CCR5+ monocytes in tuberculosis: efficient APC in pleural effusion but also mark disease severity in blood. Journal of Leukocyte Biology. https://doi.org/10.1189/jlb.1010577

      Brooks, G. A. (2018). Cell Metabolism The Science and Translation of Lactate Shuttle Theory. Cell Metab. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cmet.2018.03.008

      Portal-Celhay, C., Tufariello, J. M., Srivastava, S., Zahra, A., Klevorn, T., Grace, P. S., … Philips, J. A. (2016). Mycobacterium tuberculosis EsxH inhibits ESCRT-dependent CD4+ T-cell activation. Nature Microbiology, 2, 16232. https://doi.org/10.1038/NMICROBIOL.2016.232

      Rogatzki, M. J., Ferguson, B. S., Goodwin, M. L., & Gladden, L. B. (2015). Lactate is always the end product of glycolysis. Frontiers in Neuroscience, 9(FEB), 125097. https://doi.org/10.3389/FNINS.2015.00022/BIBTEX

      Schurr, A. (2023). From rags to riches: Lactate ascension as a pivotal metabolite in neuroenergetics. Frontiers in Neuroscience, 17, 1145358. https://doi.org/10.3389/FNINS.2023.1145358/BIBTEX

      Schurr, A., & Schurr, A. (2017). Lactate, Not Pyruvate, Is the End Product of Glucose Metabolism via Glycolysis. Carbohydrate. https://doi.org/10.5772/66699

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      This manuscript aims to understand the biological mechanisms underlying neuropsychiatric symptoms in Parkinson's disease by characterizing subtypes of neurons in the dorsal raphe nucleus and defining their susceptibility to the degeneration of dopaminergic and adrenergic systems in the brain. This study was well-designed, the results were presented beautifully, and the manuscript was well-written. Here are some comments that may help to improve the overall quality of this work.

      We thank the reviewer for the kind comments.

      Major concerns:

      The current study utilized an intrastriatal 6-OHDA injection, which raises the possibility that the observed electrophysiological and morphological changes of DRN5-HT and DRNDA neurons (Figs 3-6) may be due to the direct effects of 6-OHDA to DRN5-HT and DRNDA neurons projecting to the dorsal striatum (at least for DRN5-HT neurons). This possibility requires further clarification and discussion.

      6-OHDA is a catecholamine neurotoxin with low selectivity for serotonin neurons. However, changes in the levels of serotonin have been observed with high doses of 6OHDA. In our study, we used lower concentrations of 6-OHDA, which did not affect the levels of serotonin (Suppl. Fig 4D), or the number of DRN5-HT neurons (Suppl. Fig. 5B). Concerning the possible effect of 6-OHDA on DRNDA neurons, we did not observe any modification in the number of these cells in response to the administration of 6-OHDA (Suppl. Fig. 5C), (lines 170-175).

      How does the loss of nigrostriatal dopamine neurons affect the electrophysiology and morphology of DRNDA neurons (Figs. 5-6)? What are the potential circuit mechanisms?

      The dopaminergic system in the midbrain and the DRN constitute two highly interconnected nuclei and hence there are multiple possible circuit mechanisms that could explain how loss of nigrostriatal dopaminergic neurons affects DRNDA neurons: First, DRNDA neurons are directly innervated by dopaminergic neurons in the SNc and VTA and hence loss of SNc inputs might evoke acute as well as homeostatic changes in DRNDA (Lin et al., 2020; Pinto et al., 2019). Second, midbrain dopaminergic neurons are in turn innervated by the DRN (Watabe-Uchida et al., 2012) and loss of postsynaptic dopaminergic neurons might affect all neuron types in the DRN that target the midbrain. Finally, GABAergic populations in the midbrain have been shown to target DRN5-HT neurons and might potentially also target other local cell types such as DRNDA (Li et al., 2019). Another possible pathway is the bidirectional connection between the striatum and the DRN (Pollak-Dorocic et al, 2014). DA depletion in the striatum may affect the GABAergic projection to the DRN and in turn modify the properties of postsynaptic DRN neurons.

      The potential circuit mechanisms are now included in the introduction (lines 58-59).

      Whether these intrastriatal 6-OHDA mice exhibited nonmotor deficits (e.g., anxiety) that may be related to the observed changes in the DRN? Such behavioral data would enhance the overall conclusions of this work.

      The PD model utilized in this study displays non-motor deficits, including depression- and anxiety-like behavior (Masini et al. 2021, Ztaou et al., 2018). This is now highlighted in the manuscript (lines 167-169).

      Minor issues:

      The panels of Fig. 2 should be re-labelled to match the descriptions in the main text (L. 142-158).

      Fig.2 now matches the descriptions in the main text.

      Fig 4D was missing from the figure, which does not match the descriptions in the main text (L. 193-204:)

      Fig. 4D includes the parameters describing the dendritic branching and starts with the last graph on the right in the second row of the panel.

      Line 409: Extra "as" after "average"

      Corrected in revised manuscript.

      Fig 3G: Missed asterisks.

      Corrected in revised manuscript (Fig. 3G)

      Details of how action parameters were quantified should be stated and specified in the methods.

      We have now added a section called ‘Quantification of electrophysiological parameters’ in the methods where we explain how the electrophysiological properties are defined and quantified (lines 407-439).

      "Parkinson's disease" in the title should be revised to "parkinsonism"

      Corrected in revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Throughout the paper, there are numerous inaccuracies and inconsistencies in the figures, which impede the clear understanding of this paper. For example, there are discrepancies between the labeling of the main figures (sub-panels) and the corresponding manuscript (Figure 2, Figure 4).

      Corrected in the revised manuscript.

      The statistical presentations are inaccurate in several figures (Figure 3E, 3G), making it difficult to distinguish which data is statistically meaningful. Furthermore, the number of cells presented in each figure is ambiguous in the figure legend. It would be better to avoid expressions such as 'n = 28 - 43 cells per group', as in line 456 (Figure 1I). Please provide the exact number of cells for each graph.

      We agree with the reviewer, and we have now added the precise n numbers for each panel in the corresponding legends in Fig 1, Fig 3, and Fig 5. Please note that some analysis was restricted to recordings where neurons fired close to their average spontaneous firing frequency (e.g. 1Hz for DRN5-HT) to allow for a fair comparison of the data across groups and that therefore the n numbers vary in different panels.

      In some figures, the value of n in the graph seems different from the value of n in the figure legends (Figure 2G-I, Figure 4, Figure 6). Collectively, these inaccurate figures and the manuscript weaken the general credibility of the data presented.

      We apologize for the misunderstanding, but in the type of chosen graph, equal values are overlapped. The numbers described in the figure legend are correct.

      (2) Some of the authors' claims in this paper are not supported by quantitative analysis, but only by sample recording traces or simple descriptions. For example, in line 97, the authors mentioned, "no differences when comparing TH-positive to TH-negative neurons".

      But there are no data actually analyzing these two groups in Supplementary Figure 2A.

      In addition, in line 103, there is a claim that "DRN DA neurons showed that they share several properties characteristics of other DA populations located in the SNc and the ventral tegmental area". However, this claim is backed up only by a few sample traces in Figure 1E.

      The statement (lines 110-111), "a relative constant action potential (AP) amplitude", is also not supported by appropriate quantitative analysis but only by sample recording traces.

      In our study we found a small subset of DAT-tdTomato positive neurons which did not stain positive for TH after the slice recordings. In 5 of 6 of these neurons (recorded in sham), the electrophysiological properties did not differ from other TH-positive neurons. This is visualized in Suppl. Fig 2A. The absence of any statistical difference was also confirmed by a Mann Whiteny U test comparing the TH negative to the TH positive DRNDA neurons (no significant differences in all 6 of 6 properties shown in Suppl. Fig 2A). Additionally, all these cells were DAT-positive, further supporting their classification as dopaminergic neurons. Therefore, we suspect that the lack of TH staining is likely caused by the tissue processing itself. Please note that all our immunohistochemistry was run on slices after several hours of patch-clamping procedures. Finally, including or excluding this small subset of neurons in the present study does not change any of the results presented and data was therefore pooled. We have now clarified this in more detail in the results section and in Suppl. Fig 2A (lines 100-103).

      We have moved the comparison of hallmark properties found in DRNDA neurons as well as in dopaminergic neurons in the midbrain from the results section to the discussion (lines 281-283).

      The claim that DRN5HT neurons have a comparatively constant action potential amplitude compared to DRNDA neurons is supported by quantitative analysis shown in Fig 1I (left panel, “AP drop rate”), while the representative example traces are shown in Fig 1G.

      (3) In the legend of Figure 2, the mouse used in this experiment is mentioned with two different names (wild-type mice in line 463 and sham-lesion mice in line 465). Is this a mistake? Or did the authors intentionally use the brain samples from sham-lesion mice for Figure 2?

      Figure 2 shows data in control conditions (Sham-lesion in our case), both from wild-type and Dat-Tomato. The text has been changed to avoid misunderstandings.

      (4) While the primary claim of this paper is the differential alterations of DRN 5-HT and DA neurons in a mouse PD model, the observed changes in the DRN neurons of the 'DA only lesion model' are comparatively minor to the 'DA and NA lesions model'. Therefore, it looks like NA depletion has a more critical role in the DRN neurons of 6OHDA-lesion mice than DA depletion. To understand the results of this paper better, it would be great if the authors can provide additional data from the 'NA only lesion model'.

      We agree with the reviewer, and we have now added a new set of experiments in which we selectively lesioned noradrenergic cells by injecting 6-OHDA unilaterally into the LC. The new data are presented in supplementary figure 6 in the revised manuscript. We find that selective lesioning of the NA system affects DRNDA and DRN5-HT neurons mildly, suggesting that the concomitant lesion of the DA and NA systems is particularly impactful (possibly because of interactions between these two systems).

      (5) In Figure 3B and Figure 5B, only the 6-OHDA+DMI group shows significant differences from the sham group. This finding might be attributed to the effect of DMI itself, not to the nigrostriatal DA degeneration without NA degeneration. Thus, adding the 'DMI-only group' in all experiments will strengthen the conclusion of this paper.

      The effect of one acute administration of desipramine was temporally limited to the stereotactic intervention (line 373-375), which was performed several weeks before the electrophysiological and morphological analyses. Given that the half-life of desipramine is approximately 24 hrs (Nagy and Johansson, 1975), we believe that its impact was limited to the neuroprotection of NA-neurons from 6-OHDA toxicity.

      (6) DRN 5-HT neurons are known to exhibit cellular heterogeneity, and in particular their electrophysiological properties are quite heterogeneous (Bernat Kocsis. 2006; J.V. Schweimer. et al. 2011). Furthermore, 5-HT neurons in the distinct subregions of the DRN display different membrane properties (LaTasha K. Crawford, 2010). Therefore, not all DRN 5-HT neurons can be regarded as electrophysiologically identical. Given that the molecular identity of all recorded cells was confirmed with neurobiotin in this paper, it would be better to show that recorded cells are not biased toward certain subregions of DRN.

      In addition, providing more comprehensive descriptions of the electrophysiological features used in PCA analysis would be beneficial in understanding the electrophysiological profiling of DRN neurons explained in this paper.

      Although several studies have revealed electrophysiological and molecular heterogeneity within the DRN5-HT population, we did not observe any significant differences within the DRN5-HT neurons recorded in this study. We compared the properties of DRN5HT neurons recorded more anterior to those recorded in the posterior

      DRN as well as neurons found in more ventral locations to those in more dorsal locations (data not shown). We would like to point out that the largest differences within serotonergic neuron populations described by previous studies were often found when comparing those located in the medial raphe nucleus (MRN) to those found in the DRN. Calizo et al., (2011) showed for example significant differences in the input resistance and AHP amplitude between MRN5HT and DRN5HT neurons. These two properties as well as the AP amplitude, AP threshold, AP duration, and tau did however not differ between DRN subregions in their study - and neither in ours. We extended our Suppl. Fig 1 and mapped the location of DRN5HT and DRNDA neurons recorded in sham (Suppl. Fig 1D).

      Overall, we’ve sampled neurons along the anterior-posterior and dorsal-ventral axes of the DRN, while on the medial-lateral axis, recorded DRN neurons were located medially.

      We agree with the reviewer that a comprehensive description of the electrophysiological features was missing in the manuscript, and we have therefore added a new section in the materials and methods where we explain in detail how each parameter was measured and analyzed (‘Quantification of electrophysiological parameters’, lines 407-439). This section also provides detailed information about the five properties underlying the PCA shown in figure 1 (i.e. delay to the first action potential, action potential drop rate, action potential rise time, duration of the afterhyperpolarization, and capacitance).

      (7) Some sample images presented in this paper contain information that can conflict with the previous research. In Figures 4B and 6B, TH expression was significantly increased in the DMI pretreatment group compared to the control group. However, several studies have shown that the administration of DMI decreases TH expression levels (Komori et al.1992; Nestler et al.1990). Therefore, it would be great if the authors further explained how the pretreatment of DMI with 6-OHDA affects TH level within the DRN.

      Figure 4B and 6B do not show any quantification of TH expression. The difference observed in the representative pictures is casual and due to the variable expression of TH across the slice. Moreover, as mentioned in the response to point 5, mice were subjected to a single injection of DMI immediately preceding the stereotactic intervention (line 373375). In contrast, the increase in TH expression reported by Komori et al. 1992 and Nestler et al. 1990 was observed in response to chronic (two weeks) administration of DMI.

      (8) This paper lacks direct evidence to demonstrate whether DMI pretreatment could effectively protect against NA depletion. Therefore, in addition to TH expression levels, it is important to provide data to confirm the intact NA levels (or NA axons) after DMI treatment.

      NA levels in the striatum were measured by Enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay and reported in Suppl.Fig.4 in the revised manuscript.

      (9) It would be great if the authors specifically explained why 6-OHDA was injected into the striatum (neither MFB nor SNc) to make a mouse model of PD.

      Mice were injected in the dorsal striatum to produce a partial bilateral lesion of the dopamine and noradrenaline systems. This model reproduces the initial stages of PD and also recapitulates several non-motor symptoms of PD, including affective disorders, which may be related to changes in serotonergic and dopaminergic transmission in the dorsal raphe. In contrast, injections in the MFB and SNc quickly produce a severe motor phenotype closer to a late stage of the disease and cannot be done bilaterally. <br /> The striatal model has been successfully used in other publications (Kravitz et al., 2010, Masini et al., 2021, Ztaou et al., 2018, Chen et al., 2014, Branchi et al., 2008, Marques et al. 2019, Tadaiesky et al., 2008, Matheus et al., 2016, Silva et al., 2016).

      (10) Supplementary Figures 2 and 3 were erroneously cut on the right side. These figure images should be replaced with the correct ones.

      We thank the reviewer for noticing and we have now replaced the figures with the correct ones.

      (11) There should be more explanations about tdTomato-positive but non-TH neurons in Supplementary Figure 2. It is strange to regard TH-negative neurons as DA neurons although these neurons have DA neuron-like electrophysiological properties. If these tdTomato-positive but non-TH neurons cannot release DA, can we say these are DA neurons?

      In our study we found a small subset of DAT-tdTomato positive neurons which did not stain positive for TH afterwards. In 5 of 6 of these neurons (recorded in sham), the electrophysiological properties did not differ from other TH-positive neurons. This is visualized in Suppl. Fig 2A. The absence of any statistical difference was also confirmed by a Mann Whiteny U test comparing the TH-negative to the TH-positive DRNDA neurons (no significant differences in all 6 of 6 properties shown in SF2A). Additionally, all these cells were DAT-positive, further supporting their classification as dopaminergic neurons. Therefore, we suspect that the lack of TH staining is likely caused by the tissue processing itself. Please note that all our immunohistochemistry was run on slices after several hours of patch-clamping procedures. Finally, including or excluding this small subset of neurons in the present study does not change any of the results presented and data was therefore pooled. We have now clarified this in more detail in the results section and in Suppl. Fig 2A (lines 100-103).

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The authors report using a parametric statistical test, the t-test. The t-test makes the assumption that the data are normally distributed. Most biological data is not distributed normally, and with smaller datasets, it is difficult to say whether the underlying distribution would be normally distributed. I would recommend using the non-parametric versions of the same test (eg Mann-Whitney U test), which is likely to give a similar result while being more conservative given the potential for non-normal distribution.

      All electrophysiological data were first tested for normality before running the corresponding statistical test (either t-test for normal distributed data or Mann-Whitney U test for non-normally distributed data). The morphological data are now analyzed by the Mann-Whitney U test (lines 484-494).

      The authors state that mice were treated with 6-OHDA at 3 months, then brain slices were prepared 3 weeks later, making them about 4 months old. I could not find the age of sham/control mice and 6-OHDA/desipramine mice in the methods section. Were sham/controls and 6-OHDA slices prepared in an interleaved fashion?

      Sham and 6-OHDA+DMI mice underwent surgery at 3 months and the brain slices were prepared 3 weeks later, as the 6-OHDA mice. We have now clarified this in the methods (line 381).

      While desipramine is relatively selective as a norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor, it also can prevent serotonin reuptake. Could this mechanism also protect DRN neurons from the effects of 6-OHDA?

      Even if desipramine has some affinity for the serotonin reuptake, this affinity is 100-fold less than the one described for the noradrenaline reuptake (Richelson and Pfenning, 1984, Gillman, 2007). Moreover, in our study the 6-OHDA injection in the dorsal striatum did not cause any direct damage to the DRN5-HT, as shown by the 5-HT measurement and DRN5-HT counting (Suppl. Fig. 4D, Suppl. Fig. 5A,B), so we can exclude that the effects observed in the DMI+6-OHDA group are related to a protection of the serotonergic system exerted by a single injection of desipramine.

      On line 168, the authors use the abbreviation NA for noradrenergic. Was this abbreviation previously defined in the manuscript?

      Yes, the abbreviation is defined in the introduction (line 73).

      On line 45, the authors cite that the DRN-5HT subpopulation accounts for 30-50% of the DRN neurons. It would be helpful to know approximately what percentage of the DRN neurons belong to the DRNDA subpopulation as well.

      To the best of our knowledge, there is unfortunately no detailed analysis of the prevalence of DRNDA neurons in mice available. Previous studies in rats have estimated that this population comprises around 1000 neurons (Descarries et al., 1986). According to Calizo et al. (2011), the number of any non-serotonergic neuron population (releasing dopamine or other neurotransmitters) in the DRN is one third to one tenth less than the number of DRN5-HT neurons. But please note that this study was also performed in rats (line 55).

      While I appreciate that the authors did not over-interpret their findings, it would be useful to comment (in the Discussion) on how their findings could/should be used in interpreting other studies using 6-OHDA, as well as the relationship of their findings to loss of 5-HT and/or DRN neurons in Parkinson's Disease itself.

      In the manuscript, we refer to the utility of the 6-OHDA model for the study of a wide range of non-motor symptoms. We have now described, in this model, how the loss of midbrain dopaminergic and noradrenergic neurons affects the electrophysiological and morphological properties of DRN5-HT and DRNDA neurons. This information will allow for a more precise assessment of the mechanisms involved in the affective and cognitive aspects of PD symptomatology (lines 354-356).

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      We greatly thank you and the reviewers for your expert comments and valuable suggestions on our manuscript. After reading these comments, we realized that the previous version of the manuscript contained some weak points. Surely, the issues raised by the six reviewers were of great help in the revision of our manuscript.

      According to the comments, we have now fully revised the manuscript to address most of the questions and suggestions. In addition, we reworded some parts of the Introduction, Results and Discussion, Figures, Figure legends and Experimental Methods to increase the rigor of our conclusions.

      Overall, you will see that we have paid serious attention to all the concerns and criticisms expressed by reviewers. Addressing these various issues has most certainly allowed us to prepare a much-improved manuscript and for this we offer our hearty thanks.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The organization of cell surface receptors in membrane nanodomains is important for signaling, but how this is regulated is poorly understood. In this study, the authors employ TIRFM single-molecule tracking combined with multiple analyses to show that ligand exposure increases the diffusion of the immune receptor FLS2 in the plasma membrane and its co-localization with remorin REM1.3 in a manner dependent on the phosphosite S938. They additionally show that ligand increases the dwell time of FLS2, and this is linked to FLS2 endocytosis, also in a manner dependent on S938 phosphorylation. The study uncovers a regulatory mechanism of FLS2 localization in the nanodomain crucial for signaling.

      Strengths:

      TIRFM single-molecule tracking, FRAP, FRET, and endocytosis experiments were nicely done. The role of S938 phosphorylation is convincing.

      Weaknesses:

      Question 1: The model suggests that S938 is phosphorylated upon flg22 treatment. This is actually not known.

      Reply: Thank you for your expert comments. Although the phosphorylation of Ser-938 upon flg22 treatment is not known, the model presented in the manuscript is based on previous studies that have shown the importance of Ser-938 phosphorylation for the function of FLS2 (Cao et al, 2013). When it is mutated to the phosphorylation-mimicking residues aspartate or glutamate, immune responses remain normal. These findings suggest that the phosphorylation of Ser-938 plays a critical role in activating defense mechanisms upon flagellin detection (Cao et al, 2013). Now we added the results of Cao et al. (2013) to the introduction to strengthen in the revised manuscript.

      Question 2: In addition, the S938D mutant does not show constitutively increased diffusion and co-localization with remorin. It is necessary to soften the tone in the conclusion.

      Reply: We appreciate the valuable suggestions from the reviewer. Based on our findings, we observed that the phosphorylation of Ser-938 significantly impacts the dynamics of flg22-induced FLS2. However, it does not alter the diffusion coefficient of FLS2 itself. In the revised manuscript, we have carefully adjusted the conclusion by softening the tone to reflect these findings.

      Question 3: The introduction (only two paragraphs) and discussion are not properly written in the context of the current understanding of plant receptors in nanodomains. The authors basically just cited a few publications of their own, and this is not acceptable.

      Reply: We accepted the criticisms here. Now, we have reworded the introduction and discussion sections to improve clarity. Furthermore, we have incorporated several new reports on plant receptors in nanodomains into the revised manuscript. Besides, we deleted some publications from our own group, while citing the latest references on plant receptors and nanodomains.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The research conducted by Yaning Cui and colleagues delves into understanding FLS2-mediated immunity. This is achieved by comparing the spatiotemporal dynamics of an FLS2-S938A mutant and FLS2-WT, especially in relation to their association with the remorin protein. To delineate the differences between the FLS2-S938A mutant and FLS2-WT, they utilized a plethora of advanced fluorescent imaging techniques. By analyzing surface dynamics and interactions involving the receptor signal co-receptor BAK1 and remorin proteins, the authors propose a model of how FLS2 and BAK1 are assembled and positioned within a remorin-specific nano-environment during FLS2 ligand-induced immune responses.

      Strengths:

      These techniques offer direct visualizations of molecular dynamics and interactions, helping us understand their spatial relationships and interactions during innate immune responses. Advanced cell biology imaging techniques are crucial for obtaining high-resolution insights into the intracellular dynamics of biomolecules. The demonstrated imaging systems are excellent examples to be used in studying plant immunity by integrating other functional assays. Weaknesses:

      It's essential to acknowledge that every fluorescence-based method, just like biochemical assays, comes with its unique limitations. These often pertain to spatial and temporal resolutions, as well as the sensitivity of the cameras employed in each setup. Meticulous interpretation is pivotal to guarantee an accurate depiction and to steer clear of potential misunderstandings when employing specific imaging systems to analyze molecular attributes. Moreover, a discerning interpretation and accurate image analysis can offer invaluable guidance for future studies on plant signaling molecules using these nice cell imaging techniques. For instance, although single-particle analysis couldn't conclusively link FLS2 and remorin, FLIM-FRET effectively highlighted their ligand-triggered association and the disengagement brought on by mutations. While these methodologies seemed to present differing outcomes, they were described in the manuscript as harmonious. In reality, these differences could highlight distinct protein populations active in immune responses, each accentuated differently by the respective imaging techniques due to their individual spatial and temporal limitations. Addressing these variations is imperative, especially when designing future imaging explorations of immune complexes.

      Reply: Thank you for your insightful comments and suggestions. We appreciate your expertise in fluorescence-based methods and the importance of careful interpretation and accurate image analysis. We agree with you that different imaging techniques may have their limitations and can highlight distinct aspects of protein dynamics and interactions.

      In our study, we used single-particle analysis and FLIM-FRET to investigate the spatiotemporal dynamics of FLS2 and its association with remorin. While single-particle analysis did not conclusively link FLS2 and remorin, FLIM-FRET effectively highlighted their ligand-triggered association and the disengagement caused by mutations. We acknowledge that these techniques may have different spatial and temporal resolutions, leading to the discrepancy in their results. However, after the normalized treatment, we can provide very similar conclusions. Accordingly, we have revised the manuscript.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Receptor kinases (RKs) perceive extracellular signals to regulate many processes in plants. FLS2 is an RK that acts as a pattern-recognition receptor (PRR) to recognize bacterial flagellin and activate pattern-triggered immunity (PTI). PRRs such as FLS2 have been previously shown to reside within PM nanodomains, which can regulate downstream PTI signaling. In the current manuscript, Cui et al use single particle tracking to characterize the effect of previously-described phosposite mutants (FLS2-S938A/D) on the PM organization, endocytosis, and signaling functions of FLS2. The authors confirm that FLS2-S938D but not -S938A is functional for flg22-induced responses, while also demonstrating that phopshodead mutation at this site (S938A) prevents flg22-induced sorting into nanodomains and endocytosis. These results are consistent with S938 being an important phosphorylation site for FLS2 function, however, they fall short of demonstrating that membrane disorganization of FLS2-938A is responsible for downstream signaling defects.

      Strengths:

      The authors' experiments (single particle tracking, co-localization, etc) do a good job of demonstrating how a non-functional version of FLS2 (S938A) does not alter its spatio-temporal dynamics, nanodomain organization, and endocytosis in response to flg22, suggesting that these require a functional receptor and are regulated by intracellular signaling components.

      Weaknesses:

      Question 1: The authors do not provide direct evidence that S938 phosphorylation specifically affects membrane organization, rather than FLS2 signaling more generally. All evidence is consistent with S938A being a non-functional version of FLS2, wherein an activated/functional receptor is required for all downstream events including membrane re-organization, downstream signalling, internalization, etc. Furthermore, the authors never demonstrate that this site is phosphorylated in planta in the basal or flg22-elicited state.

      Reply: Sorry that we did not describe clearly in the original manuscript. In fact, we found in our study that the phosphorylation of the Ser-938 site influences the efficient sorting of FLS2 into AtRem1.3-associated microdomains rather than membrane organization, as depicted in Figure 2. Furthermore, we found that the immune responses are disrupted when Ser-938 is mutated to alanine, which is consistent with previously reported results (Cao et al, 2013). However, they remain normal when mutated to the phosphorylation-mimicking residues aspartate or glutamate. These results suggest that the phosphorylation of Ser-938 is crucial for activating defense mechanisms upon flagellin detection. Although the phosphorylation of Ser-938 in plant at the basal or flg22-elicited state is not known, the model presented in the manuscript is based on the results of our current investigation together with those in the previous study that have shown the importance of Ser-938 phosphorylation for FLS2 function (Cao et al, 2013).

      Question 2: As written, the manuscript also has numerous scientific issues, including a misleading/incomplete description of plant immune signaling, lack of context from previous work, and extensive use of inappropriate references.

      Reply: We accept the criticism here. After reading the comments, we realized the problem. Now we have revised the misleading or incomplete description of plant immune signaling, added the context of previous works and deleted inappropriate references in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Question 1: The description of the data has no details. How many biological repeats were done? How were statistical analyses done? What is the concentration of flg22? How was the calcium flux done (Fig. 4A)? The method also lacks details and relevant references.

      Reply: We apologize for the lack of detail in presenting the data. Following your suggestion, we added comprehensive figure legends that provide clear explanations for each figure. Additionally, we included supplementary information on the measurement methods and references pertaining to calcium flux in the revised manuscript.

      Question 2: Data in Fig. 4 basically repeated the 2013 PLoS Pathog paper. Why were these experiments even performed? Were GFP-tagged FLS2 lines used in these experiments? If this is the case, the data just verified that the GFP-tagged FLS2 functions as expected and should be moved to supporting data.

      Reply: Thanks for the expert suggestions. In our study, we utilized GFP-tagged FLS2 lines to generate FLS2-S938 mutants and conducted experiments to investigate the flg22-induced immune response. Although some experiments in Figure 4 are similar to those reported (Cao et al, 2013), we provided a more detailed analysis of the immune response. The comprehensive analysis included early immune responses and late immune responses, e.g., the activation of a calcium burst, mitogen-activated protein kinases (MAPKs), the induction of immune-responsive genes and callose deposition, ultimately resulting in the inhibition of plant growth. As some results are analogous to the previous paper, we transfer some of the experiments as suggested, including the analysis of MAPKs and callose deposition, to the supporting data section of the revised manuscript.

      Question 3: Flg22-induced FLS2-BAK1 association does not require S938, this is consistent with prior study that flg22 acts as a molecular glue for the ectodomains of FLS2 and BAK1 (Sun et al., 2013 Science). This needs to be cited.

      Reply: Yes, we agree with the comment. Now we added an additional sentence in the revised manuscript: “ This aligns with the previous finding that flg22 acts as a molecular glue for FLS2 and BAK1 ectodomains (Sun et al., 2013).”

      Question 4: Line 50, the references cited do not match what they say here.

      Reply: We are sorry for the mistake in citing inappropriate references. In the revised manuscript, we deleted this sentence as well as the incorrect reference.

      Question 5: Line 105, "flg22 can act as a ligand-like factor". It is a ligand!

      Reply: Sorry for the mistake. Now, the sentence was corrected in the revised manuscript by deleting the word “like”.

      Question 6: Line 107, FLS2/BAK1 heterodimerization, not heteroologomerization.

      Reply: Now we used “heterodimerization” to replace “heteroologomerization” in the revised manuscript.

      Question 7: Line 114, are these really the best references to cite here?

      Reply: After reading the comment, we found the references were not suitable here. Now we changed references by citing “(Martinière et al., 2021)” in the revised manuscript.

      Question 8: Lines 123-124, the sentence is incomplete.

      Reply: In the revised manuscript, we reworded the sentence to make it complete now. We changed “In a previous investigation, we demonstrated that flg22 induces FLS2 translocation from AtFlot1-negative to AtFlot1-positive nanodomains in the plasma membrane, implying a connection between FLS2 phosphorylation and membrane nanodomain distribution (Cui et al., 2018). To validate this, we assessed the association of FLS2/FLS2S938D/FLS2S938A with membrane microdomains, using AtRem1.3-associated microdomains as representatives (Huang et al., 2019).” in the revised manuscript.

      Question 9: Lines 169-170, Why is this "most important"?

      Reply: Sorry for the unsuitable description. As we have dramatically changed the manuscript, this sentence was deleted from the new version.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Here are some specific areas of ambiguity in the study to be improved.

      Question 1: Clarity in statistical analysis is necessary. Many figure legends omit details such as the sample size "n", and the nature of the measurements, like ROIs, images, and dots, the size of the seedlings, etc.

      Reply: We appreciated this suggestion, which was raised by the reviewer I as well. Now, we provided the details for each figure, including the sample size, the nature of the measurements in the revised manuscript.

      Question 2: Additional background about the choice of FLS2-S938 mutant would be beneficial, given that this mutant doesn't affect the BAK1 interaction but nullifies several PTI responses.

      Reply: Yes, we agreed that some additional background is required for the FLS2-S938 mutant. Therefore, we added a sentence here: “FLS2 Ser-938 mutations impact flg22-induced signaling, while BAK1 binding remains unaffected, thereby suggesting Ser-938 regulates other aspects of FLS2 activity (Cao et al., 2013).” in the revised manuscript.

      Question 3: A specific segment "... Using CLSM, Fluorescence Correlation Spectroscopy (FCS) and Western blotting, we found that the endocytic vesicles of FLS2S938D increased significantly after flg22 treatment (Figure 3B-3E)..." is not easy to follow. The author may want to differentiate these methods and highlight them by indicting them as endocytic vesicle counting, receptor density on PM measurement by FCS, and WB-based protein degradation characterization to understand such mixed descriptions better. By the way, "Number of Endocytosis" should be "number of endocytic vesicles". Endocytosis is a process and uncountable.

      Reply: We thank the reviewer for kindly reminding us to differentiate experimental methods. Therefore, we changed the sentences in the revised manuscript: “Employing confocal laser-scanning microscopy (CLSM) during 10μM flg22 treatment, we tracked FLS2 endocytosis and quantified vesicle numbers over time (Figure 3B). It is evident that both FLS2 and FLS2S938D vesicles appeared 15 min after-flg22 treatment, significantly increasing thereafter (Figure 3C). Notably, only a few vesicles were detected in FLS2S938A-GFP, indicating Ser-938 phosphorylation's impact on flg22-induced FLS2 endocytosis. Additionally, fluorescence correlation spectroscopy (FCS) (Chen et al., 2009) monitored molecular density changes at the PM before and after flg22 treatment (Figure S3F). Figure 3D shows that both FLS2-GFP and FLS2S938D-GFP densities significantly decreased after flg22 treatment, while FLS2S938A-GFP exhibited minimal changes, indicating Ser-938 phosphorylation affects FLS2 internalization. Western blotting confirmed that Ser-938 phosphorylation influences FLS2 degradation after flg22 treatment (Figure 3E), consistent with single-molecule analysis findings.” Besides, we also changed “number of endocytosis” to “the number of endocytic vesicles” in Figure 3C as suggested.

      Question 4: In Figure 1 E, a discrepancy exists where the total percentages in the red and black columns don't sum up to 100%, while other groups look right. This needs clarification.

      Reply: We are sorry for our carelessness in making the data incomplete. Now we thoroughly supplemented, collated, and rechecked the data in Figure 1E. Due to an oversight during the production of the figure, some data was inadvertently omitted, resulting in the red column not reaching 100%. Besides, we checked the data in the black column again, and the total percentage indeed added up to 100%.

      Question 5: Although Figure 1F uses UMAP analysis to differentiate between FLS2WT and A mutants, only data pertaining to the "D" mutant is shown.

      Reply: Thank you for the expert comments. Because there are several images in Figure 1, we only selected the data related to the “D” mutant as a representative for display. As suggested, we have added all the UMAP images in the revised supplement figure S1F.

      Question 6: There are apparent inconsistencies in the FRAP results, particularly regarding the initial recovery points post-bleaching. A detailed statistical analysis, supplemented with FRAP images over time, should be included for clarity. Were they bleached to a similar ground level before monitoring their recovery? The data points from "before" and "after "bleaching were not shown. I found the red and blue curves showed similar recovery slop, which suggests no long-distance movement changes for all three FLS2 versions, with or without flg22. This is opposite from the conclusions made by the author.

      Reply: Thank you for the expert comments. After reading the comments, we recognized this terrible problem. Therefore, we carried out a new FRAP experiment. The new results showed that, following complete bleaching of three samples of FLS2 to ground level, the recovery rates of FLS2 and FLS2S938D under flg22 treatment were significantly higher compared to the control group (Fig. 1G). In contrast, the recovery rates of the FLS2S938A-GFP after flg22 treatment remain similar to that before treatment (Fig. 1G), indicating that the Ser-938 phosphorylation site indeed affects the flg22-induced lateral diffusion of FLS2 at the PM. The new results are basically consistent with the motion range of single-molecule results, which is not contradictory to long-distance movement changes. Accordingly, we incorporated the new time-lapse FRAP images into Figure 1G and S1B.

      Question 7: There's a potential typo in Figure 1B regarding the bar size. It could neither possibly be 200 um nor 200 nm. Figure 1A also needs a scale bar.

      Reply: Apologies for the mistake. We now corrected “200 μm” to “2 μm”. Besides, we also included a scale bar in Figure 1A in the revised manuscript.

      Question 8: Due to the unreliable tracking for a long-time by Imaris, the authors analyzed the tracks within 10s and quantified very short live particles under 4s. Such 4S surface retention for a receptor does not seem to match functional endocytic internalization time for cargo. Even after the endocytic adaptor module recruitment, it would take at least more than 10s to finish the internalization. In the field of endocytosis, these events are often described as abortive endocytic events. However, the disappearance of cargoes, FLS2 in this case, indicates internalization into the cytoplasm, which is interesting. May the author discuss more on how these short events analyzed enhance our understanding of the functional behavior of FLS2?

      Reply: We greatly appreciated the valuable comments provided by the reviewer. After thorough consideration, we acknowledged that in our original manuscript, we failed to distinguish the short-lived from the long-lived particles and vaguely put them collectively into the internalized particles. We realized that and it is inappropriate to ambiguously categorize all particles as internalized. Therefore, we added the sentence “Additionally, numerous FLS2 exhibited short-lived dwell times, indicating abortive endocytic events associated with the endocytic pathway and signal transduction (Bertot et al., 2018)” in the revised manuscript.

      Question 9: Figure 2D should be comprehensive, presenting data for the WT, A, and D versions.

      Reply: Yes, we agreed with the suggestions. Now, we added several representative images for the WT, A, and D versions in the revised manuscript.

      Question 10: In Figure 2D, TIRM-SIM should be a typo and rectified to TIRF-SIM. Also, a detailed explanation of the TIRF-SIM setup and its specifics would be important. The imaging approach of SIM, especially the time duration for finishing all frames before reconstruction, is essential to rationalize its use in capturing and measuring an appropriate speed range of particle movement. May the author elaborate on the technique details and the use of TIRF-SIM for colocalization analysis? To clarify these, the author may provide additional TIRF-only movies of FLS2 (WT, A, D) and AtRem1.3 for comparison with TIRF-SIM still images.

      Reply: Sorry for the mistake. In the revised manuscript, we have corrected “TIRM-SIM” to “TIRF-SIM”. In order to rationalize its use in capturing and measuring an appropriate speed range of particle movement, we included a more detailed description of the imaging approach and the colocalization analysis of TIRF-SIM in the Materials and Methods section as follows: “The SIM images were taken by a 60 × NA 1.49 objective on a structured illumination microscopy (SIM) platform (DeltaVision OMX SR) with a sCMOS camera (Camera pixel size, 6.5 μm). The light source for TIRF-SIM included diode laser at 488 nm and 568 nm with pixel sizes (μm) of 0.0794 and 0.0794 (Barbieri et al., 2021). For the dual-color imaging, FLS2/FLS2S938A/FLS2S938D-GFP (488 nm/30.0%) and AtRem1.3-mCherry (561 nm/30.0%) were excited sequentially. The exposure time of the camera was set at 50 ms throughout single-particle imaging. The time interval for time-lapse imaging was 100 ms, the total time was 2s, and the total time points were 21s. The Imaris intensity correlation analysis plugin was used to calculate the co-localization ratio.” in the revised manuscript. Furthermore, we provided additional TIRF-SIM movies of FLS2 (WT, A, D) and AtRem1.3.

      Question 11: The colocalization displayed in Figure 2D is hard to tell. A colocalization ratio of FLS2-AtRem1.3 is shown as ~0.8%, which has only ~0.2% difference from the flg22-treated condition. "n" of Figure 2F should be specified in the legend, such as a line with a specific length, or an ROI with a specific area size.

      Reply: Thank you for the expert comments. Although the increased colocalization after flg22 treatment is not high, the change is statistically significant as compared with the wild type. We agreed that every fluorescence-based method, like biochemical analysis, has its own unique limitations, which were raised by the Reviewer #2 (Public Review) as well. In order to provide strong evidence, we also carried out the FLIM-FRET experiment as a supplement, which can effectively detect their ligand-triggered association or disassociation. From figure 2G and H, we clearly found that the co-localization of FLS2/FLS2S938D-GFP with AtRem1.3-mCherry significantly increase in response to flg22 treatment (FLS2-GFP control: 2.45 ± 0.019 s; FLS2-GFP flg22-treated: 2.39 ± 0.016 s; FLS2S938D-GFP control: 2.42 ± 0.010 ns; FLS2S938D-GFP flg22-treated: 2.35 ± 0.028 ns). In contrast, FLS2S938A-GFP shows no significant changes (control: 2.53 ± 0.011 ns; flg22-treated: 2.56 ± 0.013 ns), indicating that Ser-938 phosphorylation influences efficient sorting of FLS2 into AtRem1.3-associated microdomains. Following the suggestion of the reviewer, we now rearranged the order of 2E and 2F, in which N represents the entire image region used for analysis rather than a specific region of interest.

      Question 12: I appreciate the nice results of the FLIM-FRET results for FLS2-Rem1.3. Figure 2H should be supplemented with additional representative images of all FLS2 variants including WT and mutants.

      Reply: Thanks for your warm encouragement. As suggested, we added all the representative images in the revised manuscript.

      Question 13: The unit of the X-axis of Figure 2E can not be pixel. Should it be, um? In the method, the author could specify the camera model and magnification for TIRF-SIM to understand pixel size of the image better.

      Reply: Sorry for the mistake here. Indeed, the unit of the X-axis in Figure 2E should be μm. Now we correct this mistake in Figure 2E in the revised manuscript. Besides, we included a detailed description of the imaging approach of TIRF-SIM in the Materials and Methods section as follows: “The SIM images were taken by a 60 × NA 1.49 objective on a structured illumination microscopy (SIM) platform (DeltaVision OMX SR) with a sCMOS camera (Camera pixel size, 6.5 μm)”.

      Question 14: "... as shown in A..." in Figure Legend 2E should be "... as shown in D..."

      Reply: Thanks for pointing out this mistake. In the revised manuscript, we used “as shown in D” to replace “as shown in A”.

      Question 15: I recommend that the authors exercise caution when drawing conclusions based on the Rem1.3 data and when representing the "microdomain" concept in their final model. While Rem1.3 punctate is a nanometer-sized protein cluster specific to its identity, its shape can be categorized as a nanodomain. Conceptually, however, it neither universally represents all nanodomains nor microdomains, as depicted in Figure 4. We should exercise caution to prevent providing misleading information to the field.

      Reply: We thank the reviewer for expert comments. To avoid misleading conclusions, we changed “nanodomains” to “AtRem1.3-associated microdomains” in the revised manuscript. Besides, we have also made modifications to Figure 4.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Question 1: The manuscript needs to be extensively re-written and has severe issues as-is. Many references are either not quite appropriate or are completely unrelated to the use in the text. In general, the current state-of-the-art of PTI and RK signaling is not correctly described or incorporated.

      Reply: We accepted the criticisms here. As suggested, we thoroughly rewrote the manuscript to address the concerns raised. Furthermore, we have thoroughly checked and revised the manuscript by removing 21 irrelevant references and adding 30 relevant references. We also incorporated the most up-to-date descriptions of the PTI and RK signaling pathways.

      Question 2: Receptor-like kinase (RLK) should generally be receptor kinase (RK) as receptor functions are now well established.

      Reply: Yes, we agreed with your expert comment here. Now, we changed “Receptor-like kinase (RLK)” into “receptor kinase (RK)” in the revised manuscript.

      Question 3: Line 20 - is this really true?

      Reply: Sorry for the mistake. In the revised manuscript, we changed “However, the mechanisms underlying the regulation of FLS2 phosphorylation activity at the plasma membrane in response to flg22 remain largely enigmatic.” to “However, the dynamic FLS2 phosphorylation regulation at the plasma membrane in response to flg22 needs further elucidation.”

      Question 4: S938D sorts better in response to Flg22; S938A is unaffected - suggests phosphorylation of S938 is not dynamic in response to Fig 22 but is required for pre-elicitation sorting. Overall, there is a chicken-and-egg problem in this paper: which comes first, immune/signalling functionality or nanodomain sorting? And which is explaining the defects of S938A?

      Reply: We thank the reviewer for expert suggestions. In fact, the previous studies showed that membrane microdomains serve as signaling platforms that mediate cargo protein sorting and protein-protein interactions in a variety of contexts (Goldfinger et al. 2017). Since our previous research showed that the disruption of membrane microdomains affected flg22-induced immune signaling (Cui et al. 2018), we speculate that the immune signal occurred after entering the membrane microdomains.

      As shown in Figure 1 and 2, ligand exposure leads to an increase in diffusion coefficient and enhanced co-localization with REM1.3, both of which are dependent on the phosphorylation of the Ser-938 site. Deducing from these results, we inferred that the defects in S938A resulted largely from its failure to sort into membrane microdomains. The phosphorylation of the Ser-938 site can regulate FLS2 into functional AtRem1.3-associated microdomains, thereby affecting flg22-induced plant immunity.

      Question 5: Line 37 conserved, not conservative (though not technically true - the domain organization is conserved but the ECDs are not conserved).

      Reply: Thank you for pointing this mistake out. In the revised manuscript, we used “conserved” to replace “conservative”.

      Question 6: Lines 40-42 - not all phosphorylation sites are within the kinase domain, for example, sites are well-described on the JM and/or C-tail regions outside of the kinase domain.

      Reply: We accepted the criticisms here. We have corrected the sentence to “with phosphorylation sites mainly located in PKC” in the revised manuscript.

      Question 7: Line 42 - what is BIK1? Intro to relevant topics is severely lacking.

      Reply: Sorry for the incomplete introduction here. We added the relevant introduction of BIK1 by adding that “Upon recognizing flg22, FLS2 interacts with the co-receptor Brassinosteroid-Insensitive 1-associated Kinase 1 (BAK1), initiating phosphorylation events through the activation of receptor-like cytoplasmic kinases (RLCKs) such as BOTRYTIS-INDUCED KINASE 1 (BIK1) to elicit downstream immune responses (Chinchilla et al., 2006; Li et al., 2016b; Majhi et al., 2021). ” in the revised manuscript.

      Question 8: Lines 42-44 - not sure this sequence of events is being properly described (e.g. BIK1 release is unlikely to precede activation by BAK1/SERKs).

      Reply: We apologize for not expressing this sentence clearly. Now, we reworded the sentence: “Upon recognizing flg22, FLS2 interacts with the co-receptor Brassinosteroid-Insensitive 1-associated Kinase 1 (BAK1), initiating phosphorylation events through the activation of receptor-like cytoplasmic kinases (RLCKs) such as BOTRYTIS-INDUCED KINASE 1 (BIK1) to elicit downstream immune responses (Chinchilla et al., 2006; Li et al., 2016b; Majhi et al., 2021).” in the revised manuscript.

      Question 9: Line 61 - S938 was identified by Cao et al (2013) based on in vitro MS, but was functionally validated using genetic assays, not based on MS.

      Reply: Thank you for your comments. Now, we changed the sentence: “In vitro mass spectrometry (MS) identified multiple phosphorylation sites in FLS2. Genetic analysis further identified Ser-938 as a functionally important site for FLS2 in vivo (Cao et al., 2013).” in the revised manuscript.

      Question 10: Line 68-69 - phospho-dead and phospho-mimic, not phosphorylated/non-phosphorylated.

      Reply: We thank the reviewer for expert suggestions. In the revised manuscript, we changed the sentence by replacing “phosphorylated/non-phosphorylated” with “phospho-mimic” and “phospho-dead”.

      Question 11: Lines 104-106 - this is wildly misleading. Flg22 is more than a ligand-like factor, as it is a bona fide ligand, and the heterodimerization with BAK1/SERKs is extremely well-established (and relevant foundational papers should be cited here in place of the authors' previous work).

      Reply: We apologize for the incorrect expression here. After reading the comments, we realized the problem which was raised by the reviewer I as well. Now, we changed “ligand-like factor” to “ligand”. Besides, we cited the new references “(Orosa et al., 2018)” to replace the references of our group in the revised manuscript.

      Question 12: Lines 107-112 - again, this is confusing. There is a decade of (uncited, undiscussed) work previously establishing that heterodimerization of RK-co-receptor complexes is mediated by extracellular ligand binding and independent of intracellular phosphorylation.

      Reply: We thank the reviewer for expert suggestions. Now, we added several sentences in the revised manuscript: “Therefore, we further investigated if Ser-938 phosphorylation affects FLS2/BAK1 heterodimerization. Tesseler segmentation, FRET-FLIM, and smPPI analyses revealed no impact of Ser-938 phosphorylation on FLS2/BAK1 heterodimerization (Figure 2A-C and S2). This aligns with the previous finding that flg22 acts as a molecular glue for FLS2 and BAK1 ectodomains (Sun et al., 2013), confirming the independence of FLS2/BAK1 heterodimerization from phosphorylation, with these events occurring sequentially.”

      Question 13: Line 119 - this is the wrong citation - Yu et al 2020 is a review and does not cover RALFs; correct citation is Gronnier et al 2022 eLife.

      Reply: In the revised manuscript, we updated the reference from “ (Yu et al., 2020)” to “(Gronnier et al., 2022)”.

      Question 14: Lines 123-124 - this sentence is incomplete.

      Reply: Sorry for the incomplete sentence. Now we reworded the sentence to “In a previous investigation, we demonstrated that flg22 induces FLS2 translocation from AtFlot1-negative to AtFlot1-positive nanodomains in the plasma membrane, implying a connection between FLS2 phosphorylation and membrane nanodomain distribution (Cui et al., 2018). To validate this, we assessed the association of FLS2/FLS2S938D/FLS2S938A with membrane microdomains, using AtRem1.3-associated microdomains as representatives (Huang et al., 2019).” in the revised manuscript.

      Question 15: Line 126 - this requires a reference.

      Reply: Yes, we added a new reference: “(Huang et al., 2019)” in the revised manuscript.

      Question 16: Lines 125-128 - should clarify that the authors are not looking at direct interaction between FLS2 and REM1.3.

      Reply: Sorry for the inappropriate expressions here. In the revised manuscript, we reworded the sentence as follows: “To validate this, we assessed the association of FLS2/FLS2S938D/FLS2S938A with membrane microdomains, using AtRem1.3-associated microdomains as representatives (Huang et al., 2019)” .

      Question 17: Line 138 - these are odd references to use for such a broad statement.

      Reply: Now the inappropriate references cited here have been deleted.

      Question 18: Line 161 - incorrect reference, again.

      Reply: Sorry for this mistake. In the revised manuscript, we reworded the sentence and changed the reference.

      Question 19: Lines 160-165 - this is very confusing and misleading. I would suggest just having a short section introducing PTI earlier on (with appropriate references).

      Reply: As suggestion, we reworded and added a section in the revised manuscript as follows: “PTI plays a pivotal role in host defense against pathogenic infections (Lorrai et al., 2021; Ma et al., 2022). Previous studies demonstrated that FLS2 perception of flg22 initiates a complex signaling network with multiple parallel branches, including calcium burst, mitogen-activated protein kinases (MAPKs) activation, callose deposition, and seedling growth inhibition (Baral et al., 2015; Marcec et al., 2021; Huang et al., 2023). Our focus was to investigate the significance of Ser-938 phosphorylation in flg22-induced plant immunity. Figure 4A-F illustrates diverse immune responses in FLS2 and FLS2S938D plants following flg22 treatment. These responses encompass calcium burst activation, MAPKs cascade reaction, callose deposition, hypocotyl growth inhibition, and activation of immune-responsive genes. In contrast, FLS2S938A (Figure S4A-D) exhibited limited immune responses, underscoring the importance of Ser-938 phosphorylation for FLS2-mediated PTI responses”.

      Question 20: Line 166 - these are not appropriate references, again.

      Reply: Thank you for the suggestion. In the revised manuscript, we removed the inappropriate references. Besides, we added new references by citing: “(Baral et al., 2015; Marcec et al., 2021)”.

      Question 21: Lines 169-173 - this is not relevant, the inhibition of growth by elicitors is extremely well-documented (though not by the refs cited here).

      Reply: We reworded the sentence and deleted the inappropriate reference in the revised manuscript.

      Question 22: Lines 174-175 - I don't see why this is unexpected, as nanodomain organization of PRRs has been previously described.

      Reply: Sorry for the inappropriate expressions here. As we have dramatically changed the manuscript, this sentence was deleted from the new version.

      References we added into the revised manuscript

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      Bücherl CA, Jarsch IK, Schudoma C, Segonzac C, Mbengue M, Robatzek S, MacLean D, Ott T, Zipfel C. 2017. Plant immune and growth receptors share common signalling components but localise to distinct plasma membrane nanodomains. eLife 6:e25114. DOI: https://doi.org/10.7554/eLife.25114, PMID: 28262094

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      Chinchilla, D., Bauer, Z., Regenass, M., Boller, T., and Felix, G. 2006. The Arabidopsis receptor kinase FLS2 binds flg22 and determines the specificity of flagellin perception. Plant Cell 18:465-476. doi:10.1105/tpc.105.036574, PMID: 16377758

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    1. Note: This response was posted by the corresponding author to Review Commons. The content has not been altered except for formatting.

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      Reply to the reviewers

      The authors sincerely appreciate the editors’ and the reviewers’ dedication in providing constructive and insightful comments aimed at enhancing the quality of the manuscript. In response to the valuable feedback received, we have implemented significant revisions to the manuscript, including the addition of key experiments, reorganization of the figures as well as providing detailed point-to-point responses to address the reviewers’ concerns. With these changes, we are confident that we have effectively addressed the comments raised by all three reviewers and have strengthened the overall quality of the manuscript.

      Below are the major improvements we have made in the revised manuscript:

      1. Figure 4  new figure with polysome profiling assay to strengthen the link between translational regulation and mitochondrial defects.
      2. Figure 7  added confocal images showing the transfer of mitochondria into recipient cells.
      3. Figure S2  added RER data further supporting a shift of metabolism to favor fatty acid oxidation as shown by proteomics data.
      4. Figure S4  added WB data showing that protein degradation was not affected, strengthening a protein synthesis defect due to Fam210a KO.
      5. Figure S5B, S6C  added quantification to the staining and blots.

      1. Point-by-point description of the revisions

      Reviewer #1 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      In the manuscript entitled "FAM210A mediates an inter-organelle crosstalk essential for protein synthesis and muscle growth in mouse", Chen et al, found that knocking out of FAM210A specifically in muscle using Myl Cre resulted in abnormal mitochondria, hyperacetylation of cytosolic proteins, and translation defects. The manuscript uncovered the new functions of FAM210A in regulating metabolism and translation. I have the following the concerns about the manuscript.

      Comments

      One of the major phenotypes of FAM210A is the decrease of muscle mass after 6 weeks after birth. Is this phenotype caused by the accumulation of progressive loss of muscle mass from birth? Are the body weight and muscle mass reduced in FAM210A knocking out new-born mice? Is the muscle mass growth curve the same in FAM210A and WT mice from birth to 6 weeks after birth? These results will reveal more mechanism of FAM210A mediated muscle mass control. Answer: Indeed, the phenotype of the Fam210aMKO was caused by the progressive loss of muscle mass. The body weight of the mice was not different before 3-weeks of age (Figure 2B). We reasoned that myonuclei accretion occurred before Myl1Cre induced knockout of Fam210a, accounting for the relative normal muscle development and nuclei accretion prior to 21 days after birth (refer to Response Figure 2). However, due to the small muscle mass, it is hard to accurately evaluate whether the muscle mass in very young mice. Regardless, we believe that body weight and muscle weight closely mimic each other and exhibit similar slopes in WT and KO mice (Response Figure 1).

      Beyond 21 days, muscle growth is mainly attributed to hypertrophy of myofibers, a process that relies on protein synthesis. Yet the Fam210aMKO myofibers has defects in protein synthesis, explaining why the muscles cannot gain weight after 3 weeks and started to lose weight. We have shown that at 4 weeks the TA muscle weight was 13 mg in Fam210aMKO compared to 25 mg in WT control. At 6-weeks, the TA weight in the Fam210aMKO mouse was 10 mg compared to 28 mg in the WT control. Furthermore, the TA weight of the Fam210aMKO mouse was 8.7 mg compared to 36mg in the WT control. These results provide compelling evidence that the Fam210aMKO muscles are progressively wasted.

      Response Figure 1. Changes of body weights and TA muscle weights during postnatal growth. The muscle weights increased (in wildtype mice) or decreased (in KO mice) with body weights at similar trends.

      Does the muscle mass continue to decrease after 8 weeks?

      Answer: Based on the trend (see Response Figure 1), we believe the answer is “yes”. However, we were not allowed to monitor the Fam210aMKO mice after 8 weeks of age, as they were severely lethargic and can barely move, reaching the humane endpoint determined by the IACUC guidelines.

      FAM210A knockout mice displayed high lethal rate. Is there any potential mechanism for the high lethality?

      Answer: We performed extensive necropsy and could not identify a direct cause. The potential cause for the lethality could be the difficulty of breathing as the diaphragm muscle was very thin in the Fam210aMKO mouse compared to the WT control. Besides, the diminished muscle contraction force (Figure 3) might have prohibited normal activities (including eating), leading to exhaustive death.

      In Figure 2, the muscle mass decreased significantly, while the fat mass only decreased slightly in FAM210A knockout mice. However, the ratio of the lean mass and fat mass to body mass did not change in FAM210A knockout mice compared to WT mice. How do the authors reconcile this?

      Answer: Just to clarify, Figure 2D-E shows that fat mass was significantly reduced at 4-week old but not reduced at 6-week old. We interpret the significant reduction of the mass but not the ratio (to body weight) as the result of the concomitant reduction of the body weight in the Fam210aMKO mice.

      Are there changes of the number of nuclei per myotube? Is the muscle atrophy in FAM210A knockout mice caused by the defects of fusion, or the degradation of protein, or both?

      Answer: We thank the reviewer for this question. To answer this question, we isolated myofibers from WT and Fam210aMKO mouse at 4-week-old and quantify the myonuclei number. We did not observe a significant reduction of myonuclei number per myofiber in the Fam210aMKO mouse, suggesting that the myoblast fusion into myofibers was not affected in the Fam210aMKO model. (Response Figure 2)

      Response Figure 2. DAPI staining and quantification in the single myofiber isolated from WT and Fam210aMKO mice.

      The number of myonuclei in the WT and Fam210aMKO was not different, suggesting normal fusion of satellite cells in Fam210aMKO mice.

      We also did western blot to check the atrophy related protein expression in WT and Fam210aMKO mouse at different ages. Interestingly, we did not observe a significant induction of these proteins (Atrogin-1, MuRF1) in the Fam210aMKOmuscle. Therefore, we conclude that the muscle atrophy was due to protein translation defects in the Fam210aMKO, independent of myoblast fusion and protein degradation (Figure S4C).

      Are the growth curves of muscle mass growth in EDL and SOL the same in FAM210A knockout mice?

      Answer: We thank the reviewer for the question. In the Myl1Cre mediated Fam210a KO model, Fam210a was deleted in both fast (EDL) and slow (SOL) muscles (see response to Reviewer 3, second point). We think that the “growth curve” of the EDL and SOL muscle should be same (stagnant and even reduced) upon Fam210a KO as the mouse grows from 4-week to 8-week.

      The oxygen consumption and carbon dioxide production are higher in FAM210A knockout mice, suggesting a high metabolism rate. In contrast, the heat production of FAM210A knockout mice is lower, suggesting a low metabolism rate. Any explanation?

      Answer: The VCO2 and VO2 values were normalized to the body weight, and the KO value appeared high because their body weights were much lower at the time of test. While for heat production (unit: Kcal/hr), body weight was not a factor in the calculation. The seemingly contradicting/surprising result that a weak KO mouse could have higher VCO2 and VO2could be recapitulated in other mouse models (for example PMID: 22307625).

      Given the high glucose consumption in FAM210A, why is the clearance rate of blood glucose low?

      Answer: We believe there is a misunderstanding here. A smaller AUC (as seen in the KO) suggest faster blood glucose clearance. The circulating glucose level after fasting is lower in the KO mice, which suggests that the Fam210aMKO mice were consuming more glucose compared to the WT mice. In the GTT test, the Fam210aMKO mice showed a lower AUC after the injection of glucose, implying that the Fam210aMKO mice cleared the injected glucose at a faster rate, probably due to a pseudo-fasting state which would promote the uptake of circulating glucose when available.

      Are there any changes of the abilities for the FAM210A knockout mice in running endurance?

      Answer: Indeed, the Fam210aMKO mice ran less distance, shorter time, and at a lower speed when tested on a treadmill endurance running program (Figure 3)

      In page 5, the last sentence of the 2nd paragraph, the authors concluded "There results suggest that Fam210aMKO induces a metabolic switch to a more oxidative state." It is better to describe it as muscle metabolic since the whole-body metabolism has not been carefully examined.

      Answer: We thank the reviewer for pointing this out, we will change the wording to better reflect the changes observed in the Fam210aMKO mouse regarding the metabolism.

      In Fig. 6, what is the link between increased transcription level of Fgf21 and the elevated level of aberrant acetylation of proteins?

      Answer: We thank the reviewer for this interesting question! However, we did not pursue a direct causal relationship between Fgf21 level and aberrant protein acetylation. In our model, we are proposing that mitochondrial defects in the Fam210aMKO model can trigger the integrated stress response which leads to a higher Fgf21 transcript level in the muscle. This is coinciding with the acetylation increase in the muscle due to the excessive production of acetyl-CoA. A potential relationship between Fgf21 and protein acetylation warrant examination in a future study.

      After careful considerations on the mechanism proposed in the study, we decided to remove qPCR data showing the modest increase of Fgf21 mRNA level. The removal of this data will not change the conclusions we draw nor lessen the significance of the mitochondria transfer experiment.

      Is there any link between the increased acetylation level of rebolsome proteins and the translation defects?

      Answer: Indeed, there are ample studies showing that ribosomal proteins can be acetylated, and that the acetylation of ribosomal proteins can affect the protein synthesis process, for example in PMID: 35604121 and PMID: 37742082. Here in this paper, we showed by ribosome profiling assay that the muscle has defects in the polysome formation (at 4-week and 6-week), when the protein acetylation was significantly increased in the Fam210aMKO mice (Figure 4D-4G).

      How do the abnormal mitochondria lead to increased protein acetylation? And how do these defects further cause translation problem?

      Answer: As elaborated in the discussion, we propose that upon Fam210a KO in mature myofiber, the TCA cycle in the mitochondria was disrupted, blocking utilization of acetyl-CoA and resulting in the accumulation of acetyl-CoA in the muscle. The excess acetyl-CoA lead to increased protein acetylation in the cytosol. We identified that ribosomal proteins are hyperacetylated in the muscle. We also observed that the polysome formation in the muscle was impaired, which exacerbates the translation efficiency.

      Consistently, when we treated C2C12 during in vitro culture with sodium acetate to mimic the increase of acetylation of proteins, we showed that excessive levels of acetyl-CoA can block the differentiation of C2C12 cells (Response Figure 3).

      Response Figure 3. The effect of sodium acetate on the differentiation of C2C12 myoblasts.

      The differentiation of C2C12 myoblasts into myotubes were probed by the protein abundance of Myog and MF20, which showed a decrease in the expression level when sodium acetate was added in increasing amounts.

      The defects in translation will cause general problems besides mitochondria defects. Are there any phenotypes related to the overall translation inhibition observed? If not, why?

      Answer: Just to clarify, our model suggests that mitochondrial defects in the Fam210a KO causes cytosolic translation defects, not the other way around. We showed by SUnSET experiment that the global translation was indeed reduced in the Fam210aMKO muscle at 4-week. We also observed that the p-S6 level which indicates the global protein translation was decreased. It is also true that the global translational arrest can exacerbate the mitochondrial defects and fewer mitochondrial proteins can be synthesized. This feed forward loop can explain the aggravating phenotype in the Fam210aMKO mouse as the mouse gets older.

      Are the abnormal mitochondria, increased protein acetylation, and translation inhibition observed in 2-6 weeks old mice? When were these defects first found? Are they correlated with muscle atrophy?

      Answer: At 2-week-old, the protein synthesis or degradation was not changed between WT and Fam210aMKO mice (Figure S4C). The mitochondria abnormality was first observed at 4 weeks of age, concomitant with the decrease of protein translation (decreased p-S6), polysome formation, and protein hyperacetylation. The acetylation increase was apparent at 6-week together with decreased p-S6 level, polysome assembly and mitochondrial defects. Decreased protein translation has been shown to cause muscle atrophy (PMID: 19046572).

      Reviewer #1 (Significance (Required)):

      This manuscript described many interesting phenotypes of Fam210a knockout mice. However, the links between these phenotypes are obscure. The logic of the manuscript will be greatly improved if the authors could provide explanations to logically link the phenotypes.

      Reviewer #2 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      Summary: In this manuscript, Chen et al., investigate the functions of FAM210A in skeletal muscle physiology and metabolism. FAM210A is a mitochondria-localized protein in which mutations have been associated with sarcopenia and osteoporosis. Using publicly available gene expression datasets from human skeletal muscle biopsies the authors first demonstrate that the expression of FAM210 is reduced in muscle atrophy-associated diseases and increased in muscle hypertrophy conditions. Based on this, they show that a muscle specific Fam210a deletion leads to muscle atrophy/weakness, systemic metabolic defects, and premature lethality in mouse. Further examination of the knockout myofibers reveals impaired mitochondrial respiration and translation program. Additionally, the authors demonstrate that the flow of TCA cycle is disrupted in the FAM210A-deleted myofibers, which causes abnormal accumulation of acetyl-coA and hyperacetylation of a subset of proteins. The authors claim that Fam210a deletion in skeletal muscle induces the hyper-acetylation of several small ribosomal proteins that leads to ribosomal disassembly and translational deficiency. However, this conclusion is not supported by adequate experimentation and rigorous analysis of ribosomal proteins acetylation and ribosome assembly.

      Major comments:

      -In general, figure legends are lacking information regarding number of biological replicates used and details about statistical analysis. What does three * vs. one * mean in terms of p-value? Exact p-values should be indicated.

      Answer: We thank the reviewer for pointing this out, we have added the information to the revised figure legends.

      -The mechanistic studies linking muscle phenotypes with ribosomal protein hyperacetylation and mRNA translation defects are underdeveloped and not rigorously carried.

      Answer: We agree with the reviewer and have added new data in the revised manuscript to strengthen this link. For example, we have now provided direct evidence on the defective polysome assembly in the Fam210a KO muscles (Figure 4D-4G), which should profoundly impact mRNA translation. In addition, other groups have also shown that ribosomal protein acetylation can impact mRNA translation and polysome formation (PMID: 35604121).

      We also explored the effect of acetylation on differentiation (a process accompanied by extensive protein synthesis) related to our mouse model. We used sodium acetate to elevate acetylation during C2C12 differentiation. We found that increased acetylation indeed impaired the differentiation as can be seen by the reduced expression of MF20 (myosin protein) by WB and IF. The differentiation marker Myogenin was also reduced (Response Figure 3, 4).

      Response Figure 4. Immunofluorescence staining of Myog and MF20 in the differentiated C2C12 myotubes treated with different amounts of sodium acetate.

      The number of MF20 (green) positive myotubes and Myog (red) positive nuclei was significantly reduced in the cells treated with 15mM and 30mM sodium acetate.

      -Fig S1: The validation WB of FAM210A KO is not the most convincing. Why are the FAM210A levels so low in TA compared to other tissues?

      Answer: This is due to the insufficient proteins loaded as it was obvious from the Tubulin marker. We have replaced the WB blot with more convincing blots as requested (Figure S1C).

      -Fig 2G: The authors state "Hematoxylin and eosin (H&E) staining did not reveal any obvious myofiber pathology in the Fam210a KO mice up to 8 weeks". However there seems to be a progressive increase in nuclei up to 8-weeks in the KO. What is the significance of this?

      Answer: Thank you for pointing this out. We have now changed the wording and quantified the myonuclei number per myofiber. The increase of myonuclei in the H&E images is likely due to the smaller myofiber size in the Fam210aMKOmouse compared to the WT (Response Figure 5).

      Response Figure 5. Quantification of the myonuclei number in the H&E images.

      -IP-MS analysis for FAM210A interacting proteins requires validation with IP and reverse IP + WB experiment.

      Answer: We did perform the co-IP with SUCLG2 and FAM210A antibodies to try to confirm the interaction. To be more specific, we transduced C2C12 myoblasts cells with an Fam210a overexpression virus and differentiated the cells for 3 days. The myotubes were used to test the interaction by pulling down Fam210a with a myc antibody (FAM210A has a myc tag) and blot with SUCLG2 antibody. Unfortunately, the results were not promising (Response Figure 6). We reasoned that the interaction might be indirect or too transient to be reliably detected.

      Response Figure 6. co-IP of SUCLG2 and FAM210A.

      • Figure 4A requires quantification of the SDH signals from multiple samples.

      Answer: We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We have added the quantification of the staining (Figure S5B).

      • Figure 6F: To clearly demonstrate an increase in protein acetylation in the FAM210 MKO, the authors must provide quantification data generated with more then N=1. Please add the molecular weights markings on the side of the blots.

      Answer: We thank the reviewer for this suggestion, we have provided the quantification of the Acetylated-lysine blots, and added the molecular weight markers (Figure 6F, Figure S6C).

      • Figure 6H and S5: The mitochondria transfer experiment appears to be quite efficient compared to previously published studies. It would be important to control that the signal observed in the recipient cells is not due to the leakage of the MitoTracker dye from the donor mitochondria.

      Answer: This is an interesting point though MitoTracker dye is not supposed to leak as it covalently binds to mitochondrial proteins. Even though the dye may leak to mark the endogenous mitochondrial, it does not affect our goal to demonstrate that transfer of Fam210aMKO mitochondria into healthy cells can induce protein hyperacetylation. Additional evidence argues against the leakiness of Mitotracker dye to subsequently mark other mitochondria in the recipient cells: 1) mtDNA and MitoTracker signal both increase linearly with the increasing amounts of mitochondria transferred (Figure S7A); 2) We have now also included confocal images to show the presence of both MitoTracker labeled and non-labeled mitochondria in the recipient cells. We reason that if MitoTracker leaks within a cell then it would have labeled all mitochondrial in that cell (Figure 7C).

      • Figure 6J: The increase in Fgf21 is modest. Although the difference is statistically significant, is it biologically important?

      Answer: We thank the reviewer for this question; indeed, the increase is modest. We think the reason of the modest increase compared to the drastic increase seen in vivo was because when we transplanted the WT and Fam210aMKOmitochondria to the recipient cell, the original mitochondria in the recipient were not depleted, which could explain the milder effect. However, we were able to show that the recipient cells readily increase the acetylation of proteins after receiving the Fam210aMKO mitochondria, recapitulating the phenotype we saw in the Fam210aMKO muscle.

      After careful considerations on the mechanism proposed in the study, we decided to remove qPCR data showing the modest increase of Fgf21 mRNA level. The removal of this data will not change the conclusions we draw nor lessen the significance of the mitochondria transfer experiment.

      • Figure 6C: How significant is the difference in acetylation of RPL30 in WT vs. KO. RPS13 was not found in the WT MS? Was this normalized to Input?

      Answer: the MS was performed with same loading. The mass spectrometry results for protein identification after AcK-IP were from pooled samples from 3 independent replicates (as the KO muscles are very scarce). Therefore, there was not a significance test.

      • Figure 7D: What are the MW of the bands shown on this blot? This experiment is by no means sufficient to demonstrate and confirm that ribosomal proteins are acetylated. An increase in RPL30 and RPS13 acetylation must be directly assessed.

      Answer: We thank the reviewer for suggesting the more direct assays to look at RPL30 and RPS13 acetylation. We have shown that the ribosome fractions were indeed hyperacetylated in the Fam210aMKO mouse compared to the WT control (Figure S6D). We agree that this result cannot lead to the conclusion that the RPL30 and RPS13 are specifically hyperacetylated. Indeed, we have tried to use Acetylated lysine antibody pull down and RPS13/RPL30 blot to show the increase in the acetylated RPS13/RPL30 protein. However, we cannot show a robust increase in the acetylation, potentially due to the low number of acetylation sites on RPS13 and RPL30 protein. We therefore have reworded the conclusion in the revised manuscript to better reflect the results.

      • Fig7E: This experiment is not properly executed and in its current state does not rigorously support that "hyper-acetylation of several small ribosomal proteins leads to ribosomal disassembly". A) UV profiles of the fractionation must be provided to assess the quality of the profile. B) Provide MW markers. Which band is RPL30? The Input and free fraction bands are not at the same size. RPL30 should at least be visible on the 60S and polysomes from the WT. C) These results do not match the acetylation MS data, which seem to show that the increase in acetylation is much greater for RPS13. However, RPS13 presence on polysomes (assuming they are polysomes) is not affected in the KO. D) This type of experiment must be done for three independent biological replicates, blots from single lanes must be quantified and normalized to total signal (from all the lanes) for the same antibody.

      Answer: we appreciate the great advice on improving the experiment. As suggested, we have now added proper experimentation (UV profile, and better WB), with the help of Dr. Kotaro Fujii (included as co-author in the revised manuscript). The following results showed that in the 4-week sample, there was a decrease in the 80S monosome and polysome in the Fam210aMKO mice compared to the WT. The change was more drastic at 6-week (Figure 4D-4G). Similarly, due to the scarce amount of muscle in the KO mice, we need to pool samples from the 6-week-old mice for the experiment, and hope the reviewer can understand the situation. With the clear peaks shown in the UV profile as well as the WB results, we provide more convincing evidence that the polysome assembly was indeed impaired in the Fam210aMKO (Figure 4D-4G).

      • Fig 7F: Global translation rates are assessed by puro incorporation at week 4, a time point when differences in protein acetylation were not observed. This does not support the hypothesis that increased acetylation of ribosomal proteins causes defect in protein translation. (Referencing the authors statement p.7 lines 321-24.).

      Answer: We thank the reviewer for this question. When we quantified the protein acetylation increase in the muscle at 4-weeks, we showed that there was a significant increase. But like the reviewer said, the ribosomal fractions were not significantly acetylated by WB at 4-week. We reasoned that, at early stages (4-weeks), the ISR signaling can lead to the translational arrest, along with the polysome formation defects, leading to the decreased protein translation. These are included in the discussion.

      • Other studies have implicated Fam210A in the regulation of mitochondrial protein synthesis through an interaction with EF-Tu. The authors also identified EF-Tu as an interactor in their LC-MS analysis (FigS4). A role for this interaction accounting for mitochondrial and translation defects seems to be underestimated and unexplored here.

      Answer: We agree with this point and believe the cytoplasmic translation defects are in addition to the mitochondrial translational defects. We have shown that FAM210A KO leads to the decrease of the MTCO1 which is encoded by the mitochondrial genome. Besides, we also showed by mitochondrial proteomics that TUFM was reduced in the KO, which also contributed to translational arrest in the mitochondria (Figure 5J). To answer whether mitochondrial encoded proteins are decreased in upon Fam210a KO, we blotted the protein lysates at different stages with antibodies for a few mitochondrial encoded proteins and showed that they decreased with ages (Response Figure 7).

      Response Figure 7. WB analysis and quantification of mitochondrial encoded proteins in WT and Fam210aMKO muscle at different ages.

      The mitochondrial proteins were indeed decreased in Fam210aMKO starting from 6-weeks of age compared to the WT.

      Minor comments:

      -What is known about FAM210A, other studies assessing its role, and the rational for studying its function should be better introduced.

      Answer: We thank the reviewer for the suggestion to have more information of FAM210A functions/mechanisms in the introduction. We have added more background to the introduction.

      -In the discussion the authors states: "Moreover, when the proportion of ribosomal protein phosphorylation buildup in the Fam210aMKO, the assembly of the translational machinery is impaired therefore further dampen the cellular translation". Do they mean acetylation and not phosphorylation?

      Answer: We are sorry about the typo and have changed it. We thank the reviewer for catching this.

      • Please use the term "mRNA translation" or "protein synthesis" instead of "protein translation" in the text.

      Answer: We thank the reviewer for the suggestion to properly refer to these processes. We have changed the terms in the manuscript.

      -The methods section for RT-qPCR: It should ne M-MLV RT and not M-MLC. If the qPCR data was normalized with 18S, please provide the sequence of the primers in the table. Information on how primer efficiency was tested must be included in the method section.

      Answer: We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. We have changed the texts. We also have provided 18S sequence and provide texts about how primer efficiency was tested.

      Reviewer #2 (Significance (Required)):

      General assessment: Previous genome-wide association studies have found that mutations in FAM210A were associated with sarcopenia and osteoporosis. Because FAM210A is not expressed in the bone and highly expressed in skeletal muscle, it suggests that FAM210A likely plays an important role in muscle, which could also affect bone regulation. The authors here provide further evidence of an important role for FAM210A in diseases affecting muscle function by demonstrating that the expression of FAM210A decreases with age and in patients affected by Pompe disease, Duchenne muscular dystrophy and hereditary recessive myopathy. FAM210A is a mitochondria-localized protein and given the crucial role of mitochondria in supporting muscle metabolism, elucidating the molecular function of FAM210A may provide important insights into diseases biology that could lead to the development of therapeutic approaches. Thus, a significant protein and regulatory pathway are explored in this study that can potentially impact human health. In this manuscript, the authors provide compelling evidence of the importance of Fam210a in muscle homeostasis with their newly generate mouse model. The experiments looking at muscle physiology, function and metabolism are well-executed and for the most part rigorous, which are the strengths of this manuscript. However, the conclusion that Fam210a deletion in skeletal muscle induces the hyper-acetylation of several small ribosomal proteins, which leads to ribosomal disassembly and translational deficiency is not supported by the data presented here. As noted in the comments above, these experiments need major improvement. Additionally, there are other concerns about general scientific rigor and conclusions inconsistent with the data presented as also noted in the comments section.

      Advance: Although a previous study explored the role of FAM210A using a skeletal muscle-specific KO induced at postnatal 28 days under a HSA promoter, the model used by the authors here provide a cleaner approach and more insights into the molecular functions of FAM210A in muscle physiology. The findings that Fam210a MKO disrupts the flow of TCA cycle, which leads to an abnormal accumulation of acetyl-CoA is interesting and provide new conceptual advance on the roles of FAM210A in mitochondria function in muscle. Acetyl-CoA production is an important source of acetyl-group that can be transferred to proteins and regulate gene expression programs. Thus, this is an important finding. However, molecular mechanism by which FAM210A regulates this process through an interaction with SUCLG2 is not provided and the nature this interaction is superficially explored.

      Audience: Findings from this manuscript are likely to interest both basic research and translational/clinical audiences as it explores the physiological and molecular function of a disease-linked protein. The findings are also likely to impact the fields of metabolism, mitochondria function and regulation of gene expression by protein acetylation (if concerns raised regarding these experiments are addressed).

      The fields of expertise of this reviewer are protein and RNA modifications, ribosome biogenesis and mRNA translation.

      Reviewer #3 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      The authors state that in their manuscript "the role of mitochondria in regulating cytosolic protein translation in skeletal muscle cells (myofibers)" has been explored (Line 19-20). As experimental model, they used mice expressing Cre recombinase under the control of the myosin light chain 1 promoter. The first conclusion was that "FAM210A is positively associated with muscle mass in mice and humans". The authors say that the presented data "reveal a novel crosstalk between the mitochondrion and ribosome mediated by FAM210A".

      I recognize the potential of this work since the role of FAM210a has been more deeply investigated in skeletal muscle. In fact, the study by Tanaka et al, 2018 presented only a preliminary characterization of the role of FAM210a in muscle. However, I think that this work is not complete and each aspect that has been investigated is not well connected with each other. In particular, it is not clear whether the disrupted ribosomal assembly by hyperacetylation causes muscle atrophy or it is altered under catabolic states during atrophy (primary cause or consequence of?).

      Answer: We thank the reviewer for recognizing the importance of the study that characterizes the effect of FAM210A in muscle mass maintenance. In this study, we have shown that polysome formation was impaired at 4-week and therefore the translational efficiency was reduced in the muscle. This translational decrease coincides with the acetylation increase. Moreover, we showed by mitochondrial transfer experiment that the mitochondria from the Fam210aMKO mice can carry the phenotype and lead to acetylation increase in the recipient cells. Since muscle protein synthesis defects have been known to lead to muscle dystrophy, and we have shown that in the Fam210aMKO model, protein synthesis was indeed defective while there was not an induction of atrophy. Therefore, we conclude that the in the KO model, the protein synthesis defects lead to muscle atrophy.

      The other major point is represented by the fact that the Myl1-CRE expressing model provides selectivity in fast muscle fibers (see for example Barton PJR, Harris AJ, Buckingham M. Myosin light chain gene expression in developing and denervated fetal muscle in the mouse. Development. 1989;107: 819-824). Then the authors knocked out FAM210a only in fast fibers and they never take in consideration this key point! This is crucial since fast and slow muscles have different content of mitochondria with different size, shape, and metabolism! The muscle fibers can be classified based on the mitochondrial metabolism (see for example Chemello et al., 2019; PMID: 30917329).

      Regarding this point, they simply wrote at Line 75-76 "using a skeletal muscle specific Myl1 (myosin, light polypeptide 1) driven Cre recombinase specifically expressed in post-differentiation myocytes and multinucleated myofibers,...". It would be more correct to write multinucleated type 2 myofibers showing the reduction of FAM210a in different fiber types.

      I think that the authors must solve these aspect and then organize the findings accordingly. The data are in general interesting for broad type of audience.

      Answer:

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment on the Myl1 knock-in Cre (Myl1Cre) model, which prompted us to more explicitly clarify some of the confusions around this model. We fully respect the validity of the 1989 study by Dr. Buckingham and other studies showing fast muscle specific expression of Myl1. However, we and others have shown that Myl1 not only mark the fast but also the slow myofibers (elaborated below). The discrepancy can be explained by the fact that using the Myl1Cre as a lineage marker is different from directly examining Myl1 expression at static timepoints by in situ hybridization (ISH). This is because Cre recombinase can accumulate and diffuse to all the myonuclei in a multinucleated myofiber, subsequently leading to deletion of LoxP-flanked DNA in all nuclei. Also, in the Cre/LoxP system, only a small amount of Cre recombinase is needed to induce the recombination of the target loxP sites and lead to gene KO. Another example of the discrepancy between the static mRNA pattern and the dynamic gene expression during development is the Hox gene expression. When the corresponding author (SK) of this manuscript was trained with Dr. Joshua R Sanes, he developed 3 Cre lines driven by three different Hox genes– that have been shown by ISH to be expressed in a specific rostral to caudal domain in the spinal cord during development. However, each of these Cre model ended up marking all the spinal cord without any domain specificity. In the case of Myl1Cre mouse model, we have previously published a paper on the lineage-tracing results using the Myl1Cre and showed that Myl1Cre marked all fast AND slow myofibers in mice (Wang et al, 2015, PMID: 25794679). In another lineage tracing study using nuclear GFP reporter, we report that Myl1Cre marks 96% nuclei in myofibers regardless of fiber types (Bi et al., 2016, PMID: 27644105), the remainder 4% non-marked nuclei potentially represent satellite cells. Other groups have also used the Myl1Cre model to induce KO in both fast and slow muscles (Pereira et al, 2020, PMID: 31916679). Therefore, we believe that the Myl1Cre mouse model allows us to efficiently knockout the Fam210a gene in both slow and fast muscle.

      To directly confirm that Fam210a was efficiently knocked out in both slow and fast muscles using the Myl1Cre mouse model, we isolated different muscle groups (Soleus and diaphragm that contains a large fraction of slow myofibers, TA and EDL that contain predominantly fast myofibers) and checked the expression level and the KO efficiency of Fam210a by WB. We have shown that even in slow muscles like diaphragm and SOL, the KO was very efficient, as there were no visible FAM210A bands in the WB (Figure S1C).

      In more detail:

      The data must be analyzed and discussed based on the fact that FAM210a has been deleted specifically in fast fibers. First the authors must show the protein levels of FAM210a in both fast, slow and mixed fast-slow muscles. Then for example in Figure S1C EDL, GAS and SOL muscles must be included.

      Answer: This is related to the misunderstanding of the Myl1Cre model. We understand the reviewer’s concern and therefore isolated proteins from different muscles in WT and Fam210aMKO mice at 4-weeks and checked the expression level of FAM210A. We have shown that regardless of fast or slow muscles, FAM210A was deleted.

      The blot in general must be repeated since it has poor quality (continuum of FAM210a band in the samples).

      Answer: We thank the reviewer for this suggestion and increase the data quality. We have changed the original blot with the following blots showing that FAM210A was not deleted in other non-muscle tissues (Figure S1C).

      Please provide staining of TA, GAS and SOL muscles to show how Myl1CRE-directed deletion of FAM210a affect the different myofibers.

      Answer: This point is also related to assumption that Myl1Cre only induce deletion in fast myofibers. We have done staining in both EDL and SOL muscle to show the relative changes in myofiber compositions. We found that the myofibers in EDL and SOL muscle have shifted to a more oxidative type upon Fam210a KO (Figure S3).

      In Figure 2F where decreased TA muscle weight was showed in the Fam210aMKO mice, the authors must include also the other muscles (EDL, GAS and SOL).

      Answer: We thank the reviewer for helping us be more rigorous on the phenotype examination. We understand that the reviewer initially raised this question because of the concern on Myl1Cre model. Now that we have shown the MylCremarks both the fast and slow muscles, we believe this question is no longer a concern. Besides, to indirectly answer the question, we would like for the reviewer to appreciate the size difference of the EDL as well as the SOL muscle in Figure S3 in the manuscript. As can be seen from the images, the size of the SOL muscles in the KO was significantly reduced compared to the WT, speaking in favor of the KO effect on slow muscles.

      In general, since the HSA-CRE model is generally used for gene manipulation in skeletal muscles the authors must characterize their model considering that the myosin light chain 1 promoter Myl1-Cre is mainly active in postmitotic type II myofibers. The last model can also give advantage for mosaic gene manipulation in muscles with mixed fiber types.

      Answer: We thank the reviewer for bringing this point up. We hope by the multiple lines of evidence that we provided in the previous questions, we can convince the reviewer that the KO model using the Myl1Cre does not lead to a mosaic gene manipulation in the muscle. On the contrary, the KO model is a homogeneous KO in both fast and slow muscles.

      Line 118-119 Fam210a level is positively corelated with muscle mass, as it is reduced in muscle atrophy conditions and increased in muscle hypertrophy conditions. Fig 1: I don't like since there are many different models in which the muscle mass reduction is associated with different mechanisms. Then independently of mechanisms associated with changes in muscle mass Fam210a is always linked to? Which common mechanism can explain this?

      Answer: We understand that the reviewer would like to pursue a conserved mechanism governing muscle mass maintenance, however, we by no means wanted to make a direct causal relationship between FAM210A level and different muscle disease/atrophy conditions. Indeed, the atrophic conditions presented have different mechanisms leading to muscle mass reduction, yet we wanted to present the possible connection that Fam210a level and muscle mass are co-regulated, and we later confirmed by KO mouse model that FAM210A KO indeed reduces muscle mass.

      Line 144-146 Hematoxylin and eosin (H&E) staining did not reveal any obvious myofiber pathology in the Fam210aMKO mice up to 8 weeks (Figure 2G). I totally disagree! It seems that there is more inflammation upon deletion of Fam210aMKO. Please check it.

      Answer: We thank the reviewer for pointing this out to help us more rigorously describe our results. We have changed the wording to better reflect the changes observed with H&E images.

      Fig3E-L there is a huge difference between EDL and SOL. The authors can't avoid to discuss their data considering the real expression of CRE upon Myl promoter: specific deletion in fast fibers. I think that the data in FIGS3 are very important and must be linked to data in Fig3. Organize in a different way all the presented data to really describe what is happening upon deletion of Fam210a.

      Again, the authors MUST organize better their data in the manuscript: to each paragraph must correspond data in the main figures. For example: at Line 189 Fam210aMKO mice exhibit systemic metabolic defects and at Line 208 Fam210aMKO increases oxidative myofibers and decreases glycolytic myofibers. These two paragraphs discuss data showed only in supplementary figures.

      Answer: We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. As shown in the previous responses, the Myl1Cre indeed induce efficient deletion of Fam210a in slow muscles. Therefore, we did not consider this to be a myofiber-specific deletion model. We consider these two results as the effect of a mitochondrial protein (FAM210A) on the myofiber metabolism (independent of myofiber type specific deletion), and that the deletion of Fam210a results in mitochondrial stress, which can lead to myofiber switch (Figure S3).

      Physical activity mast be monitored. Show respiratory exchange ratio (RER = VCO2/VO2) and discuss the results.

      Answer: We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. By these results, we would like to demonstrate that muscle homeostasis is important for the systemic metabolism, disruption of muscle mass maintenance in the Fam210aMKO mice leads to defects in the whole-body metabolism. We have now included the RER results (Figure S2F, S2G). The results show that the Fam210aMKO mice had significantly lower RER (VCO2/VO2) value at daytime, indicating that the mice rely more on utilizing fat as the fuel source. This is consistent with the proteomics results (Figure 5K) that the Fam210aMKOmice have increased FAO pathway. Unfortunately, our metabolic chamber does not have the capacity to monitor activity. We instead include data on heat production (Figure S2E).

      "Fam210aMKO increases oxidative myofibers and decreases glycolytic myofibers". The data mast be associated with the evaluation of the expression levels of FAM210 in different fiber type to really understand what is happening upon FAM210a loss.

      Answer: We understand the reviewer’s concern on the different expression level of Fam210a as well as the KO efficiency using the Myl1Cre model. We have shown that Fam210a is knocked out in fast and slow muscles, therefore, we did not consider the effects on fast and slow myofibers separately.

      As SDH activity in type 1 fibers is higher than type 2 the and since the authors are using a model in which Fam210a is deleted only in type 2 fiber they should understand what is happening: fiber 1

      Answer: We agree with the reviewer that the SDH activity is different in different myofibers. We have shown by western blot that FAM210A was similarly KO in both fast and slow muscles. When we performed fiber type staining in EDL and SOL muscle, we saw that there was a shift towards the slower myofiber types both in the EDL and SOL muscle, due to mitochondrial defects.

      Associate a cox assay with the sdh assay

      Answer: We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We have shown by SDH staining as well as seahorse experiments using isolated mitochondria that the complex II activity was impaired in the muscle. We understand the reviewer would like to see a COX assay to show the defects of the mitochondrial function. Though we were not able to perform the COX assay, we showed from other aspects that the mitochondrial function was impaired by running WB of the mitochondrial encoded proteins (ATP6, MTCO2, mtCYB) and showed these proteins were decreased with ages. Along with the morphological changes of the mitochondria shown by electron microscope (Figure 5 and Figure S5), we conclude that these changes must have impacted mitochondrial function.

      Figure 4b blot tubulin and FAM210a look strange. Look especially at first and second and fourth form the left side.

      Answer: We are sorry about the mistake in the images, we have changed the Tubulin blot in the Oxphos blots.

      Figure 4B OXPHOS protein levels look similar between wt and KO. Include the quantification with the significance (min 3-5 mice per genotype).

      Answer: we have quantified the change between WT and KO on different proteins (Reponse Figure 8).

      Response Figure 8. Quantification of the OxPHOS proteins in WT and Fam210aMKO muscle at different ages.

      Quantification of the blots showed that indeed the mitochondrial proteins were decreased in the Fam210aMKO. The change of mitochondrial encoded protein MTCO1 was earlier detected in the Fam210aMKO.

      Provide TEM analysis for SOL muscle. I would understand whether mitochondria are differently affected in fast and slow muscles.

      Answer: We understand the reviewer was originally concerned about the KO efficiency of Fam210a in fast and slow muscles, based on the assumption about the MylCre model. We have shown that the FAM210A protein was similarly depleted in both fast and slow muscles by western blot. In this case, we would speculate that the mitochondrial change in fast and slow muscles would be similar because the mitochondrial changes were due to the inherent defects in the mitochondria.

      In all experiments must be clear which muscle type or types was/were used:

      Line 268: "isolated from WT and Fam210aMKO muscles at 6 weeks of age".

      Line 587 "Muscle lysate acetyl-CoA contents"

      For Seahorse Mitochondrial Respiration Analysis at Line 599 "isolated mitochondria from muscle"

      For TCA cycle metabolomics at Line 615 "muscle tissue was weighed and homogenized"

      For SCS activity assay at Line 632 "mitochondria from muscles were isolated"

      For LC-MS/MS at Line 647 "Mitochondria were purified from skeletal muscles and subjected to proteomics analysis".

      For Ribosome isolation at Line 676 "Skeletal muscle from mice"

      For Polysome profiling experiment at Line 696 "muscle tissues from mice were dissected"

      It is important to know which muscles were used since confounding effects of the specific deletion of FAM210a in type 2 fibers must be identified and discussed.

      Answer: We thank the reviewer for considering the different muscle groups in our mouse model. For experiments requiring a large amount of muscle tissue, such as ribosome isolation, mitochondrial isolation and polysome profiling, we used all the muscles from the mouse. For WB experiments, we used the TA muscle. We have included this information in the method section in the manuscript. Since we have shown that FAM210A was similarly depleted in different muscles (see previous responses), we think it is justified to pool muscles from the same mouse.

      Line 296-297 The authors wrote "Consistently, the mRNA levels of Atf4, Fgf21 and the associated transcripts were highly induced in the Fam210aMKO 296 both in the 4-week and 6-week-old muscle samples". Is Fgf21 responsible for the reduction of body weight? (see for example PMID: 28552492, PMID: 28607005 and PMID: 33944779). Measure the circulating Fgf21 protein in Ko and wt mice.

      Answer: We thank the reviewer for this great suggestion. Indeed, Fgf21 can potentially lead to body weight reduction, and this can explain the smaller body weight in our mouse model as well. However, we are more concerned about the muscle changes in our mouse model, therefore we did not further validate the changes of Fgf21 in the circulation.

      After careful considerations on the mechanism proposed in the study, we decided to remove qPCR data showing the modest increase of Fgf21 mRNA level. The removal of this data will not change the conclusions we draw nor lessen the significance of the mitochondria transfer experiment.

      Moreover the authors must check Opa1 total protein level and also the ratio between long and short isoforms. Is Fam210a interacting with Opa1?

      Answer: We thank the reviewer for this interesting question. Another publication from our lab has shown that Fam210a can modulate the cleavage of OPA1 in brown adipose tissue and influence the cold-induced thermogenesis (PMID: 37816711). Indeed, OPA1 deletion in muscle can lead to muscle atrophy and postnatal death at about day 10 (PMID: 28552492) through the induction of UPR (ISR) and the induction of Fgf21. We did not check the interaction between FAM210A and OPA1 in the muscle context, and FAM210A was not found to be interacting with OPA1 in brown adipose tissue (PMID: 37816711). However, the focus of this study was the acetylation change and the FAM210A effect on muscle mass maintenance. Therefore, we did not pursue the OPA1 related mechanism in skeletal muscle.

      The final part of the paper is really interesting but need to be discussed knowing exactly the used experimental model. Then check in which fiber types FAM210a is loss.

      Answer: We thank the reviewer for the stringency on the model used. Indeed, the mitochondria can be different from different muscle groups. However, since the muscle isolated from WT and KO mice was properly controlled and therefore can balance the effects of different mitochondria. We have consistently observed the increased acetylation when mutant mitochondria were transferred.

      Regarding the mitochondrial transplantation I'm surprise to see that it happens in the direction of unhealthy mitochondria to healthy cells. Are you able to rescue the phenotype of Fam210a KO cells with healthy mitochondria?

      Answer: We thank the reviewer for bringing this interesting yet important question up! Our mitochondrial transfer results support a “gain-of-function” model where excessive Acetyl CoA produced by the Fam210a-KO mitochondrial induces hyperacetylation. Regarding the question to transfer healthy mitochondria to rescue the KO cells, we reason that even when we transfer the healthy mitochondria to the KO cells, the healthy mitochondria will not stop the mutant mitochondria from making excessive amounts of acetyl-CoA and thus protein acetylation. A clean transfer would require depletion of the mitochondria in the KO cells and concomitant restoring FAM210A level in the KO cells (as the lack of Fam210a gene in the KO cells will eventually convert the transferred mitochondrial into mutants with the normal turnover of FAM210A). This is technically highly challenging and nearly impossible to do. We hope that the reviewer can understand the difficulties.

      Reviewer #3 (Significance (Required)):

      In conclusion, the strength of the presented paper is the novelty: the authors explored the role of FAM210a in skeletal muscle. However, the major limitation is represented by the fact that they did not show in which fiber types Fam210a is knocked out. In fact, the used CRE recombinase expressing model is well-known to be specific for type 2 fibers. Then since mitochondria and metabolism are central in this manuscript and they are different in the fast and slow fiber types, the authors must dissect in details this point.

      Moreover, there are many data but they are not linked each other and discussed properly. The paper must be completely re-organized.

      This manuscript can be interesting for a broad type of audience.

      I'm an expert on mitochondria, metabolism and skeletal muscle.

  5. Mar 2024
    1. Note: This response was posted by the corresponding author to Review Commons. The content has not been altered except for formatting.

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      Reply to the reviewers

      Reply to Reviewers

      We are grateful to the three reviewers for their careful and constructive critiques of our preprint. We will address all of their comments and suggestions, which help to make our paper more precise and understandable. In our replies, we use 'Patterson, eLife (2021)' as shorthand for Patterson, Basu, Rees & Nurse, eLife 2021:10.

      Reviewer #1 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)): Novák and Tyson present a model-based analysis of published data that had claimed to demonstrate bistable activation of CDK at the G2/M transition in fission yeast. They point out that the published data does not distinguish between ultra-sensitive (switch-like, but reversible) and bistable (switch-like, but irreversible) activation. They back up their intuition with robust quantitative modeling. They then point out that, with a simple experimental modification, the published experiments could be repeated in a way that would test between the ultra-sensitive and bistable possibilities.

      This is an accurate and concise summary of our paper.

      Therefore, this is a rare paper that makes a specific modeling-based prediction and proposes a straightforward way to test it. As such, it will be of interest to a broad range of workers involved in the fields cell cycle and regulatory modeling.

      We agree that our work will be of interest to a broad range of scientists studying cell cycle regulation and mathematical modeling of bistable control systems.

      Nonetheless, attention to the following points would improve the manuscript. The authors should be more careful about how they describe protein abundance. They often refer to protein level. I believe in every case they mean protein concentration, but this is not explicitly stated; it could be interpreted as number of protein molecules per cell. The authors should either explicitly state that level means concentration or, more simply, use concentration instead of level.

      A valid criticism that has been addressed in the revised version.

      The authors should explain why they include stoichiometric inhibition of CDK by Wee1 in their model. Is it required to make the model work in the wild-type case, or only in the CDK-AF case? My intuition is it should only be required in the AF case, but I would like to know for sure. Also, they should state if there is any experimental data for such regulation.

      Bistability of the Tyr-phosphorylation switch requires 'sufficient' nonlinearity, which may come from the phosphorylation and dephosphorylation reactions that interconvert Cdk1, Wee1 and Cdc25. The easiest way to model these interconversion reactions is to use Hill- or Goldbeter-Koshland functions for the phosphorylation and dephosphorylation of Wee1 and Cdc25, but this approach is not appropriate for Gillespie SSA, which assumes elementary reactions. Both Wee1 and Cdc25 are phosphorylated on multiple sites, which we approximate by double phosphorylation; but this level of nonlinearity is not sufficient to make the switch bistable. In addition, stochiometric inhibition is a well-known source of nonlinearity, and in the Wee1:Cdk1 enzyme:substrate complex, Cdk1 is inhibited because Wee1 binds to Cdk1 near its catalytic site. In our model, stoichiometric inhibition of Cdk1 by Wee1 is required for bistability even in the wild-type case because the regulations of Wee1 and Cdc25 by phosphorylation are not nonlinear enough. There is experimental evidence that stoichiometric inhibition of Cdk1 by Wee1 is significant: mik1D wee1ts double mutant cells at the restrictive temperature (Lundgren, Walworth et al. 1991) are less viable than AF-Cdk1 (Gould and Nurse 1989). Furthermore, Patterson (eLife, 2021) found weak 'bistability' when they used AF-Cdk1 to induce mitosis. This puzzling observation suggests a residual feedback mechanism in the absence of Tyr-phosphorylation. Our model accounts for this weak bistability by assuming that free CDK1 can phosphorylate and inactivate the Wee1 'enzyme' in the Wee1:Cdk1 complex, which makes CDK1 and Wee1 mutual antagonists. This reaction is based on formation of a trimer, Cdk1:Wee1:Cdk1, which is possible since CDK1 phosphorylation of Wee1 occurs in its N-terminal region, which lies outside the C-terminal catalytic domain of Wee1 (Tang, Coleman et al. 1993). These ideas have been incorporated into the text in the subsection describing the model (see lines120-125).

      The authors should explicitly state, on line 131, that the fact that "the rate of synthesis of C-CDK molecules is directly proportional to cell volume" results in a size-dependent increase in the concentration of C-CDK.

      The accumulation of C-CDK molecules in fission yeast cells is complicated. In general, we may assume that larger cells have more ribosomes and make all proteins faster than do smaller cells. Absent other regulatory effects, the number of protein molecules is proportional to cell volume, and the concentration is constant. But, in Patterson's experiments, the number of C-CDK molecules is zero at the start of induction and rises steeply thereafter (see lines 147-148), and the rate of increase (#molec/time) is proportional to the size of the growing cell.

      The authors should explain, on line 100, why they are "quite sure the bistable switch is the correct interpretation".

      Line 105-106: "Although we suspect that the mitotic switch is bistable,.."

      On line 166, include the units of volume.

      Done

      On lines 152 and 237, "smaller protein-fusion levels "should be replaced with "lower protein-fusion concentrations".

      Done

      **Referee cross-commenting** *I concur with the other two reviews. *

      Reviewer #1 (Significance (Required)): *The paper is significant in that it points out an alternative interpretation for an important result in an important paper. Specifically, it points out that the published data is consistent with activation of CDK at the G2/M transition in fission yeast could be ultra-sensitive (switch-like, but reversible) instead of bistable (switch-like, but irreversible). The distinction is important because it has been claimed, by the authors of the submitted manuscript among others, that bistability is required for robust cell-cycle directionality. *

      We agree with this assessment.

      However, activation of CDK at the G2/M transition in other species has been shown to be bistable and the authors state that they are "quite sure the bistable switch is the correct interpretation". So, the paper is more likely an exercise in rigor than an opportunity to overturn a paradigm.

      We were the first authors to predict that the G2/M switch is bistable (J. Cell Sci., 1993) and among the first to prove it experimentally in frog egg extracts (PNAS, 2004). Our models (Novak and Tyson 1995, Novak, Pataki et al. 2001, Tyson, Csikasz-Nagy et al. 2002, Gerard, Tyson et al. 2015) of fission yeast cell-cycle control rely on bistability of the G2/M transition; so, understandably, we believe that the transition in fission yeast is a bistable switch. But the 'bistable paradigm' has never been directly demonstrated by experimental observations in fission yeast cells. The Patterson paper (eLife, 2021) claims to provide experimental proof, but we demonstrate in our paper that Patterson's experiments are not conclusive evidence of bistability. Furthermore, we suggest that a simple change to Patterson's protocol could provide convincing evidence that the G2/M switch is either monostable or bistable. We are not proposing that the switch is monostable; we would be quite surprised if the experiment, correctly done, were to indicate a reversible switch. Our point is simply that the published experiments are inconclusive. The point we are making is neither a mere 'exercise in rigor' nor a suggestion to 'overturn a paradigm.' Rather it is a precise theoretical analysis of a central question of cell cycle regulation that should be of interest to both experimentalists and mathematical modelers.

      Reviewer #2 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)): Summary: The manuscript asks whether the data reported in Patterson et al. (2021) is consistent with a bistable switch controlling the G2/M transition in fission yeast. Patterson et al. (2021) use an engineered system to decouple a non-degradable version of Cyclin-dependent kinase (CDK) from cell growth and concomitantly measure CDK activity (by the nuclear localization of a downstream target, Cut3p). They observe cells with indistinguishable CDK levels but two distinct CDK activities, which they posit shows bistable behavior. In this study, the authors ask if other models can also explain this data. The authors use both deterministic and Gillespie based stochastic simulations to generate relationships between CDK activities and protein levels for various cell sizes. They conclude that the experiments performed in Patterson et al. are insufficient to distinguish between a bistable switch and a reversible ultrasensitive switch. They propose additional experiments involving the use a degradable CDK construct to also measure the inactivation kinetics.

      This is an accurate summary of our paper.

      They propose that a bistable switch will have different forward (OFF->ON) and backward (ON->OFF) switching rates. A reversible ultrasensitive switch will have indistinguishable switching rates.

      Our analysis of Patterson's (2021) experiments is based on the well-known fact that the threshold for turning a bistable switch on is significantly different from the threshold for turning it off (in Patterson's case, the 'threshold' is the level of fusion protein in the cell when CDK is activated), whereas for a reversible, ultrasensitive switch, the two thresholds are nearly indistinguishable. The 'rate' at which the switch is made is a different issue, which we do not address explicitly. In the experiments and in our model, the switching rates are fast, whether the switch is bistable or monostable. The results are interesting and worth publication in a computational biology specific journal, as they might only appeal to a limited audience.

      We think our results should also be brought to the attention of experimentalists studying cell cycle regulation, because Patterson's paper (eLife, 2021) presents a serious misunderstanding of the existence and implications of 'bistability' of the G2/M transition in fission yeast. Whereas Patterson's work is an elegant and creative application of genetics and molecular biology to an important problem, it is not backed up by quantitative mathematical modeling of the experimental results. In that sense, Patterson's work is incomplete, and its shortcomings need to be addressed in a highly respected journal, so that future cell-cycle experimentalists will not make the same-or similar-mistakes.

      Several ideas need to be clarified and additional information needs to be provided about the specific parameters used for the simulations: Major comments: #1 The parameters need to be made more accessible by means of a supplementary table and appropriate references need to be cited.

      Two new supplementary tables (S1 and S2) summarize the dynamic variables and parameter values.

      It is not clear why Michaelis Menten kinetics will not be applicable to this system. Has it been demonstrated that the Km s of the enzymes are much greater than the substrate concentrations for all the reactions? If yes, please cite.

      MM kinetics are not appropriate for such protein interaction networks because one protein may be both an enzyme and a substrate for a second protein (e.g., Wee1 and CDK, or Cdc25 and CDK). So, the condition for validity of MM kinetics (enzyme concen ≪ substrate concen) cannot be satisfied for both reactions. Indeed, enzyme concen ≈ substrate concen is probably true for most reactions in our network. Hence, it is advisable to stick with mass-action rate laws. Furthermore, MM kinetics are a poor choice for 'propensities' in Gillespie SSA calculations, as has been shown by many authors (Agarwal, Adams et al. 2012, Kim, Josic et al. 2014, Kim and Tyson 2020).

      It will not be surprising if the simulation with Michaelis Menten would alter the dynamics shown in this study. A reversible switch with two different enzymes (catalyzing the ON->OFF and OFF->ON transitions) having different kinetics can give asymmetric switching rates. This would directly contradict what has been shown in Figure 7A-D.

      We don't follow the reviewer's logic here. The two transitions, off → on and on → off, are already driven by different molecular processes (dephosphorylation of inactive CDK-P by Cdc25 and phosphorylation of active CDK by Wee1, respectively). Positive feedback of CDK activity on Cdc25 and Wee1 (++ and −−, respectively) causes bistability and asymmetric switching thresholds. Switching rates, which are determined by the kinetic rate constants of the up and down processes, are of secondary importance to the primary question of whether the switch is monostable or bistable.

      #2 Line 427: The authors use a half-time of 6 hours in their model as Patterson et al. used a non-degradable construct. It is not clear why dilution due to cell growth has not been considered. The net degradation rate of a protein is the sum of biochemical degradation rate and growth dilution rate. The growth dilution rate seems significant (140 mins doubling time or 0.3 h-1 dilution rate) relative to assumed degradation rate (0.12 h-1). Please clarify why was the effect of dilution neglected in the model or show by sensitivity analysis this does not change the predicted CDK activation thresholds.

      The reviewer highlights an important effect, but it is not relevant to our calculations. In the deterministic model used to calculate the bifurcation diagrams, both cell volume and the concentration of the non-degradable Cdc13:Cdk1 dimer are kept constant; therefore, there is no dilution effect. The stochastic model deals with changing numbers of molecules per cell; the dilution effect is taken into account by the appearance of cell volume, V(t), at appropriate places in the propensity functions. In other words: in the deterministic model, which is written for concentration changes, the dilution term, −(x/V)(dV/dt), is zero because V=constant; in the stochastic model, written in terms of numbers of molecules, dilution effects are implicit in the propensity functions.

      *#3 Line 402 The authors state that the production rate of the Cdk protein is 'assumed' proportional to the cell volume. The word 'assumed' is incorrect here as a simple conversion of concentration-based differential equation (with constant production rate) to molecular numbers would show that production rate is proportional to the volume. This is not an assumption. *

      Correct; we modified the text (see line 450-462). The role of cell volume in production rate is more relevant to the case of Cdc25, where we assume that its production rate, Δconcentration/Δt, is proportional to V, because the concentration of Cdc25 in the cell increases as the cell grows. We added two references (Keifenheim, Sun et al. 2017, Curran, Dey et al. 2022) to justify this assumption. In the stochastic code, the propensity for synthesis of Cdc25 molecules is proportional to V2.

      #4 Line 423 Please cite the appropriate literature that shows that fission yeast growth during cell division is exponential. If the dynamics are more complicated, involving multiple phases of growth during cell division, please state so.

      We now acknowledge that volume growth in fission yeast, rather than exponential, is bilinear with a brief non-growing phase at mitosis (Mitchison 2003). However, we suggest that our simplifying assumption of exponential growth is appropriate for the purposes of these calculations. See line 473-476: "In our stochastic simulations, we assume that cell volume is increasing exponentially, V(t) = V0eμt. Although fission yeast cells actually grow in a piecewise linear fashion (Mitchison 2003), the simpler exponential growth law (with doubling time @ 140 min) is perfectly adequate for our purposes in this paper.."

      *#5 Line 250 The authors convert the bistable version of the CDK switch to reversible sigmoidal by assuming that Wee1 and Cdc25 phosphorylation is proportional to the CDK level rather than activity, which seems biochemically unrealistic. This invokes an altered circuit architecture where inactive CDK has enough catalytic activity to phosphorylate the two modifying enzymes (Wee1/Cdc25) but not enough to drive mitosis. This might be possible if the Km of CDK for Wee1/Cdc25 is lower relative to other downstream substrates that drive mitosis. The authors can reframe this section of the paper to state this possibility, which might be interesting to experimentalists. *

      The reviewer is correct that the molecular biology underlying our 'reversible sigmoidal' model is biochemically unrealistic. But, in our opinion, this is the simplest way to convert our bistable model into a monostable, ultrasensitive switch while maintaining the basic network structure in Fig. 1. Our purpose is to show that a monostable model-only slightly changed from the bistable model-can account for Patterson's experimental data equally well. If Nurse's group modifies the experimental protocol as we suggest and their new results indicate that the G2/M transition in fission yeast is bistable, then our reversible sigmoidal model, having served its purpose, can be forgotten. If they show that the transition is not bistable, then both experimentalists and theoreticians will have to think about biochemically realistic mechanisms that can account for the new data...and everything else we already know about the G2/M transition in fission yeast.

      #6 It is difficult to phenomenologically understand a bistable switch just based on differences in activation and inactivation thresholds. For example, a reversible ultrasensitive switch also shows a difference in activation and inactivation thresholds (Figure 7D). How much of a difference should be expected of a bistable switch versus reversible switch?

      We show how much of a difference can be expected by contrasting Fig. 7 to Fig. 8. For the largest cells (panel D of both figures), the difference is small and probably undetectable experimentally. For medium-sized cells (panel C), the difference is larger but probably difficult to distinguish experimentally. Only the smallest cells (panel B) provide an opportunity for clearly distinguishing experimentally between monostable and bistable switching.

      *Moreover, as the authors clearly understand (line 275), time-delays in activation and inactivation reactions can inflate these differences. In the future, if the authors can convert the equations to potential energy space as done in Acar et al. 2005 (Nature 435:228) in Figure 3c-d, it will be useful. Also, predicting the distribution of switching rates from the Gillespie simulation might be informative and can be directly compared to experimental measurements in the future (if the Cut3p levels in nucleus and cytosol equilibrates fast enough or other CDK biosensors are developed). *

      The famous paper by Acar et al. (2005) is indeed an elegant experimental and theoretical study of bistability ('cellular memory') in the galactose-signalling network of budding yeast. We have included a comparison of Patterson et al. with Acar et al. in our Conclusions section (lines 353-368):

      "It is instructive, at this point, to compare the work of Patterson et al. (2021) to a study by Acar et al. (Acar, Becskei et al. 2005) of the galactose-signaling network of budding yeast. Combining elegant experiments with sophisticated modeling, Acar et al. provided convincing proof of bistability ('cellular memory') in this nutritional control system. They measured PGAL1-YFP expression (the response) as a function of galactose concentration in the growth medium (the signal), analogous to Patterson's measurements of CDK activity as a function of C-CDK concentration in fission yeast cells. In Acar's experiments, the endogenous GAL80 gene was replaced by PTET-GAL80 in order to maintain Gal80 protein concentration at a constant value determined by doxycycline concentration in the growth medium. The fixed Gal80p concentration in Acar's cells is analogous to cell volume in Patterson's experiments. In Fig.3b of Acar's paper, the team plotted the regions of monostable-off, monostable-on and bistable signaling in dependence on their two control parameters, external galactose concentration and intracellular Gal80p concentration, analogous to our Fig.4. Because Acar's experiments explored both the off → on and on → off transitions, they could show that their observed thresholds (the red circles) correspond closely to both saddle-node bifurcation curves predicted by their model. On the other hand, Patterson's experiments (as analyzed in our Fig.4) probe only the off → on transition."

      The purpose of our paper is to show that Patterson-type experiments can and should be done so as to probe both thresholds, as was done by van Oudenaarden's team. They went further to characterize their bistable switch in terms of 'the concept of energy landscapes'. We think it is premature to pursue this idea in the context of the G2/M transition in fission yeast until there is firm, quantitative data characterizing the nature of the 'presumptive' bistable switch in fission yeast.

      Minor comments: #1 Line 2: Please replace "In most situations" to "In favorable conditions"

      Done.

      **Referee cross-commenting** I agree with Reviewer 1 that this falls more under pointing out an alternative interpretation of a single experiment than challenging widely supported orthodoxy about how the eukaryotic cell cycle leaves mitosis.

      As we said earlier, our 1993 paper in J Cell Sci is the source of this orthodox view, and it is widely supported at present because there is convincing experimental evidence for bistability in frog egg extracts, budding yeast cells and mammalian cells. Patterson's paper is not sound evidence for bistability of the G2/M transition in fission yeast cells. It is important for experimentalists to know why the experiments fail to confirm bistability, and important for someone to do the experiment correctly in order to confirm (or, what would be really interesting, to refute) the expectation of bistability at the G2/M transition in fission yeast cells.

      Reviewer #2 (Significance (Required)): Suitable for specialist comp bio journal eg PLoS Comp Bio

      Reviewer #3 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      The paper by Novak and Tyson revisits a recent paper from Nurse group on the bistability of mitotic switch in fission yeast using mathematical modelling. The authors extend their older models of mitotic entry check point and implement both deterministic and stochastic version of new model. They show this model does indeed possess bistability and show that combined with stochastic fluctuations the model can show bimodality for the cyclin-CDK activity at a particular cell size consistent with the recent experimental data. However, the authors also show alternative model that has mono-stable ultrasensitivity can also explain the data and suggest experiments that can prove the existence of hysteresis and therefore bistability.

      Right on.

      While the biological implication of the study is well explained, the authors can improve the presentation of their model and the underlying assumptions. I have the following comments and suggestions for improvement of the paper.

        • The cartoon of the mathematical model is confusing at places, for example the wee1-CDK complex according to the equations either dissociates back to wee1 and CDK or gives rise to pCDK and wee1, the arrow below is confusing as it implies it can also give rise to wee1p, the CDK phosphorylation of wee1 is already included in the diagram. Also, the PP2A is put on the arrow for all reactions but for wee1p2 to wee1p its action shown with a dashed line. Also, I wondered if wee1p and wee1p2 can also bind CDK and sequester or phosphorylate CDK?* We are sorry for the confusion and have improved Fig. 1.
      1. The rates and variables in the ODEs are not fully described. Also sometimes unclear what is parameter and what is a variable, I had to look at the code.*

      We now include tables of variables and parameter values, with explanatory notes.

      • The model has quite a few parameters, but these are not at all discussed in the paper. How did the authors come up with these particular set of parameters, has there been some systematic fitting, or tuning by hand to produce a good fit to the data? I could only see the value of the parameters in the code, but perhaps a table with the parameters of the model, what they mean and their value (and perhaps how the values is obtained) is missing.*

      The parameters were tuned by hand to fit Patterson's data, based, of course, on our extensive experience fitting mathematical models to myriad data sets on the cell division cycles of fission yeast, budding yeast, and frog egg extracts. We now provide a table of parameter values.

      • The authors are using the Gillespie algorithm with time varying parameters (as some rates depend on volume and volume is not constant). Algorithm needs to be modified slightly to handle this (see for example Shahrezaei et al Molecular Systems Biology 2008). *

      A valid criticism, but the rate of cell volume increase is very slow compared to the propensities of the biochemical reactions. We write (lines 492-498):

      "In each step of the SSA, the volume of the cell is increasing according to an exponential function, and, consequently, the propensities of the volume-dependent steps are, in principle, changing with time; and this time-dependence could be taken into account explicitly in implementing Gillespie's SSA (Shahrezaei, Ollivier et al. 2008). However, the step-size between SSA updates is less than 1 s compared to the mass-doubling time (140 min) of cell growth. So, it is warranted to neglect the change in V(t) between steps of the SSA, as in our code."

      • The authors correctly point out, ignoring mRNA has resulted in underestimation of noise, however another point is that mRNA life times are short and that also affects the timescale of fluctuations and this may be relevant to the switching rates between the bistable states. *

      A valid point, but to include mRNA's would double the size of the model. Furthermore, we have little or no data about mRNA fluctuations in fission yeast cells, so it would be impossible to estimate the values of all the new parameters introduced into the model. Finally, the switching rates between bistable states (or across the ultrasensitive boundary) are not the primary focus of Patterson's experiments or our theoretical investigations. So, we propose to delay this improvement to the model until the relevant experimental data is available.

      • In the introduction add, "In this study" to "Intrigued by these results, we investigated their experimental observations with a model of bistability in the activation of cyclin-CDK in fission yeast." *

      Done

      Reviewer #3 (Significance (Required)): Overall, this is an interesting study that revisits an old question and some recent experimental data. The use of stochastic modelling in explaining variability and co-existence of cell populations in the context of cell cycle and comparison to experimental data is novel and of interest to the communities of cell cycle researchers, systems biologists and mathematical biologists.

      We agree. Thanks for the endorsement

      References

      Acar, M., A. Becskei and A. van Oudenaarden (2005). "Enhancement of cellular memory by reducing stochastic transitions." Nature 435(7039): 228-232.

      Agarwal, A., R. Adams, G. C. Castellani and H. Z. Shouval (2012). "On the precision of quasi steady state assumptions in stochastic dynamics." J Chem Phys 137(4): 044105.

      Curran, S., G. Dey, P. Rees and P. Nurse (2022). "A quantitative and spatial analysis of cell cycle regulators during the fission yeast cycle." Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 119(36): e2206172119.

      Gerard, C., J. J. Tyson, D. Coudreuse and B. Novak (2015). "Cell cycle control by a minimal Cdk network." PLoS Comput Biol 11(2): e1004056.

      Gould, K. L. and P. Nurse (1989). "Tyrosine phosphorylation of the fission yeast cdc2+ protein kinase regulates entry into mitosis." Nature 342(6245): 39-45.

      Keifenheim, D., X. M. Sun, E. D'Souza, M. J. Ohira, M. Magner, M. B. Mayhew, S. Marguerat and N. Rhind (2017). "Size-Dependent Expression of the Mitotic Activator Cdc25 Suggests a Mechanism of Size Control in Fission Yeast." Curr Biol 27(10): 1491-1497 e1494.

      Kim, J. K., K. Josic and M. R. Bennett (2014). "The validity of quasi-steady-state approximations in discrete stochastic simulations." Biophys J 107(3): 783-793.

      Kim, J. K. and J. J. Tyson (2020). "Misuse of the Michaelis-Menten rate law for protein interaction networks and its remedy." PLoS Comput Biol 16(10): e1008258.

      Lundgren, K., N. Walworth, R. Booher, M. Dembski, M. Kirschner and D. Beach (1991). "mik1 and wee1 cooperate in the inhibitory tyrosine phosphorylation of cdc2." Cell 64(6): 1111-1122.

      Mitchison, J. M. (2003). "Growth during the cell cycle." Int Rev Cytol 226: 165-258.

      Novak, B., Z. Pataki, A. Ciliberto and J. J. Tyson (2001). "Mathematical model of the cell division cycle of fission yeast." Chaos 11(1): 277-286.

      Novak, B. and J. J. Tyson (1995). "Quantitative Analysis of a Molecular Model of Mitotic Control in Fission Yeast." J Theor Biol 173: 283-305.

      Patterson, J. O., S. Basu, P. Rees and P. Nurse (2021). "CDK control pathways integrate cell size and ploidy information to control cell division." Elife 10.

      Shahrezaei, V., J. F. Ollivier and P. S. Swain (2008). "Colored extrinsic fluctuations and stochastic gene expression." Mol Syst Biol 4: 196.

      Tang, Z., T. R. Coleman and W. G. Dunphy (1993). "Two distinct mechanisms for negative regulation of the Wee1 protein kinase." EMBO J 12(9): 3427-3436.

      Tyson, J. J., A. Csikasz-Nagy and B. Novak (2002). "The dynamics of cell cycle regulation." Bioessays 24(12): 1095-1109.

    1. Author Response

      eLife assessment

      The authors present evidence that small extracellular vesicles can be secreted from cells inside larger vesicles that they call amphiectosomes, which then tear to release their small vesicle contents. There are questions and concerns relating to the quality of the data and the in vivo significance of the observations. The findings are potentially important but the data are incomplete and the claims are only partially supported.

      We agree that the in vivo significance and details of the molecular background of amphiectosome release remains to be studied further. However, as Reviewer 2 indicated, our data in this Short Report may have a substantial impact on our understanding of EV biogenesis. Therefore, we considered it was important to publish our data as soon as possible because it may significantly impact other EV biogenesis studies.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors' research group had previously demonstrated the release of large multivesicular body-like structures by human colorectal cancer cells. This manuscript expands on their findings, revealing that this phenomenon is not exclusive to colorectal cancer cells but is also observed in various other cell types, including different cultured cell lines, as well as cells in the mouse kidney and liver. Furthermore, the authors argue that these large multivesicular body-like structures originate from intracellular amphisomes, which they term "amphiectosomes." These amphiectosomes release their intraluminal vesicles (ILVs) through a "torn-bag mechanism." Finally, the authors demonstrate that the ILVs of amphiectosomes are either LC3B positive or CD63 positive. This distinction implies that the ILVs either originate from amphisomes or multivesicular bodies, respectively.

      Strengths:

      The manuscript reports a potential origin of extracellular vesicle (EV) biogenesis. The reported observations are intriguing.

      Weaknesses:

      It is essential to note that the manuscript has issues with experimental designs and lacks consistency in the presented data. Here is a list of the major concerns:

      (1) The authors culture the cells in the presence of fetal bovine serum (FBS) in the culture medium. Given that FBS contains a substantial amount of EVs, this raises a significant issue, as it becomes challenging to differentiate between EVs derived from FBS and those released by the cells. This concern extends to all transmission electron microscopy (TEM) images (Figure 1, 2P-S, S5, Figure 4 P-U) and the quantification of EV numbers in Figure 3. The authors need to use an FBS-free cell culture medium.

      (1) Although FBS indeed contains bovine EVs, however, the presence of very large multivesicular EVs (amphiectosomes) that our manuscript focuses on has never been observed and reported. For reported size distributions of EVs in FBS, please find a few relevant references below:

      PMID: 29410778, PMID: 33532042, PMID: 30940830 and PMID: 37298194

      All the above publications show that the number of lEVs > 350-500 nm is negligible in FBS. The average diameter of MV-lEVs (amphiectosomes) described in our manuscript is around 1.00-1.50 micrometre.

      (1) When we demonstrated the TEM of isolated EVs, we consistently used serum- free conditioned medium (Fig2 P-S, Fig2S5 J, O) as described previously (Németh et al 2021, PMID: 34665280).

      (2) Our TEM images show cells captured in the process of budding and scission of large multivesicular EVs excluding the possibility that these structures could have originated from FBS.

      (3) In addition, in our confocal analysis, we studied Palm-GFP positive, cell-line derived MV-lEVs. Importantly, in these experiments, FBS-derived EVs are non-fluorescent, therefore, the distinction between GFP positive MV-lEVs and FBS-derived EVs was evident.

      (4) In addition, culturing cells in FBS-free medium (serum starvation) significantly affects autophagy. Given that in our study, we focused on autophagy related amphiectosome secretion, we intentionally chose to use FBS supplemented medium.

      (5) Even though the authors of this manuscript are not familiar with the technological details how FBS is processed before commercialization, it is reasonable to assume that the samples are subjected to sterile filtration (through a 0.22 micron filter) after which MV-lEVs cannot be present in the commercial FBS samples.

      (2) The data presented in Figure 2 is not convincingly supportive of the authors' conclusion. The authors argue that "...CD81 was present in the plasma membrane-derived limiting membrane (Figures 2B, D, F), while CD63 was only found inside the MV-lEVs (Fig. 2A, C, E)." However, in Figure 2G, there is an observable CD63 signal in the limiting membrane (overlapping with the green signals), and in Figure 2J, CD81 also exhibits overlap with MV-IEVs.

      Both CD63 and CD81 are tetraspanins known to be present both in the membrane of sEVs and in the plasma membrane of cells (for references, please see Uniprot subcellular location maps: https://www.uniprot.org/uniprotkb/P08962/entry#subcellular_location https://www.uniprot.org/uniprotkb/P60033/entry#subcellular_location). However, according the feedback of the reviewer, for clarity, we will delete the implicated sentence from the text.

      (3) Following up on the previous concern, the authors argue that CD81 and CD63 are exclusively located on the limiting membrane and MV-IEVs, respectively (Figure 2-A-M). However, in lines 104-106, the authors conclude that "The simultaneous presence of CD63, CD81, TSG101, ALIX, and the autophagosome marker LC3B within the MV-lEVs..." This statement indicates that CD63 and CD81 co-localize to the MV-IEVs. The authors need to address this apparent discrepancy and provide an explanation.

      There must be a misunderstanding because we did not claim or implicate in the text that that “CD81 and CD63 are exclusively located on the limiting membrane and MV-IEVs”. Here we studied co-localization of the above proteins in the case intraluminal vesicles (ILVs). In Fig 2. we did not show any analysis of limiting membrane co-localization.

      (4) The specificity of the antibodies used in Figure 2 should be validated through knockout or knockdown experiments. Several of the antibodies used in this figure detect multiple bands on western blots, raising doubts about their specificity. Verification through additional experimental approaches is essential to ensure the reliability and accuracy of all the immunostaining data in this manuscript.

      We will consider this suggestion during the revision of the manuscript.

      (5) In Figures 2P-R, the morphology of the MV-IEVs does not resemble those shown in Figures 1-A, H, and D, indicating a notable inconsistency in the data.

      EM images in Figure2 P-R show sEVs separated from serum-free conditioned media as opposed to MV-lEVs, which were in situ captured in in fixed tissue cultures (Fig1). Therefore, the two EV populations necessarily have different size and structure. Furthermore, Fig. 1 shows images of ultrathin sections while in Figure 2P-R, we used a negative-positive contrasting of intact sEV-s without embedding and sectioning.

      (6) There are no loading controls provided for any of the western blot data.

      Not even the latest MISEV 2023 guidelines give recommendations for proper loading control for separated EVs in Western blot (MISEV 2023 , DOI: 10.1002/jev2.12404 PMID: 38326288). Here we applied our previously developed method (PMID: 37103858), which in our opinion, is the most reliable approach to be used for sEV Western blotting. For whole cell lysates, we used actin as loading control (Fig3_S2B).

      Additionally, for Figures 2-S4B, the authors should run the samples from lanes i-iii in a single gel.

      Please note that in Figure 2- S4B, we did run a single gel, and the blot was cut into 4 pieces, which were tested by anti-GFP, anti-RFP, anti-LC3A and anti-LC3B antibodies. Full Western blots are shown in Fig.3_S2 B, and lanes “1”, “2” and “3” correspond to “i”, “ii” and “iii” in Fig.2_S4, respectively.

      (7) In Figure 2-S4, is there co-localization observed between LC3RFP (LC3A?) with other MV-IFV markers? How about LC3B? Does LC3B co-localize with other MV-IFV markers?

      In the Supplementary figure Figure 2-S4 we showed successful generation of HEK293T-PalmGFP-LC3RFP cell line. In this case we tested the cells, and not the released MV-lEVs. LC3A co-localized with the RFP signal as expected.

      (8) The TEM images presented in Figure 2-S5, specifically F, G, H, and I, do not closely resemble the images in Figure 2-S5 K, L, M, N, and O. Despite this dissimilarity, the authors argue that these images depict the same structures. The authors should provide an explanation for this observed discrepancy to ensure clarity and consistency in the interpretation of the presented data.

      As indicated in Material and Methods, Fig 2_S5 F, G, H and I are conventional TEM images fixed by 4% glutaraldehyde 1% OsO4 2h and embedded into Epon resin with a post contrasting of 3.75% uranyl acetate 10 min and 12 min lead citrate. Samples processed this way have very high structure preservation and better image quality, however, they are not suitable for immune detection. In contrast, Fig.2._S5 K,L,M,N shows immunogold labelling of in situ fixed samples. In this case we used milder fixation (4% PFA, 0.1% glutaraldehyde, postfixed by 0.5% OsO4 30 min) and LR-White hydrophilic resin embedding. This special resin enables immunogold TEM analysis. The sections were exposed to H2O2 and NaBH4 to render the epitopes accessible in the resin. Because of the different applied techniques, the preservation of the structure is not the same. In the case of Fig.2 J, O, separated sEVs were visualised by negative-positive contrast and immunogold labelling as described previously (PMID: 37103858).

      (9) For Figures 3C and 3-S1, the authors should include the images used for EV quantification. Considering the concern regarding potential contamination introduced by FBS (concern 1), it is advisable for the authors to employ an independent method to identify EVs, thereby confirming the reliability of the data presented in these figures.

      In our revised manuscript, we will provide all the images used for EV quantification in Figure 3C. Given that Figures 3C and 3-S1 show MV-lEVs released by HEK293T-PlamGFP cells, the possible interference by FBS-derived non-fluorescent EVs can be excluded.

      (10) Do the amphiectosomes released from other cell types as well as cells in mouse kidneys or liver contain LC3B positive and CD63 positive ILVs?

      Based on our confocal microscopic analysis, in addition the HEK293T-PalmGFP cells, HT29 and HepG2 cells also release similar LC3B and CD63 positive MV-lEVs. Preliminary evidence shows MV-lEV secretion by additional cell types.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      This study reports important evidence that infants' internal factors guide children's attention and that caregivers respond to infants' attentional shifts during caregiver-infant interactions. The authors analyzed EEG data and multiple types of behaviors using solid methodologies that can guide future studies of neural responses during social interaction in infants. However, the analysis is incomplete, as several methodological choices need more adequate justification.

      Reviewer #1

      Public Review:

      The authors bring together multiple study methods (brain recordings with EEG and behavioral coding of infant and caregiver looking, and caregiver vocal changes) to understand social processes involved in infant attention. They test different hypotheses on whether caregivers scaffold attention by structuring a child's behavior, versus whether the child's attention is guided by internal factors and caregivers then respond to infants' attentional shifts. They conclude that internal processes (as measured by brain activation preceding looking) control infants' attention, and that caregivers rapidly modify their behaviors in response to changes in infant attention.

      The study is meticulously documented, with cutting-edge analytic approaches to testing alternative models; this type of work provides a careful and well-documented guide for how to conduct studies and process and analyze data for researchers in the relatively new area of neural response in infants in social contexts.

      We are very pleased that R1 considers our work an important contribution to this developing field, and we hope that we have now addressed their concerns below.

      Some concerns arise around the use of terms (for example, an infant may "look" at an object, but that does not mean the infant is actually "attending); collapsing of different types of looks (to people and objects), and the averaging of data across infants that may mask some of the individual patterns.

      We thank the reviewer for this feedback and their related comments below, and we feel that our manuscript is much stronger as a result of the changes we have made. Please see blow for a detailed description of our rationale for defining and analysing the attention data, as well as the textual changes made in response to the author’s comments.

      Recommendations For The Authors

      This paper is rigorous in method, theoretically grounded, and makes an important contribution to understanding processes of infant attention, brain activity, and the reciprocal temporal features of caregiver-infant interactions. The alternative hypothesis approach sets up the questions well (although authors should temper any wording that suggests attention processes are one or the other. That is, certain bouts of infant attention can be guided by exogenous factors such as social input, and others be endogenous; so averaging across all bouts can actually mask the variation in these patterns). I appreciated the focus on multiple types of behavior (e.g., gaze, vocal fluctuations in maternal speech); the emphasis on contingent responding; and the very clear summaries of takeaways after each section. Furthermore, methods and analyses are well described, details on data processing and so on are very thorough, and visualizations aptly facilitate data interpretation. However, I am not an expert on infant neural responses in EEG and assume that a reviewer with such expertise will weigh in on the treatment and quality of the data; therefore, my comments should be interpreted in light of this lack of knowledge.

      We thank R1 for these very positive and insightful comments on our analyses which are the result of a number of years of methodological and technical developmental work.

      We do agree with R1 that we should more carefully word parts of our argument in the Introduction to make clear the fact that shifts in infant attention could be driven by a combination of interactive and endogenous influences. As a result of this comment, we have made direct changes to parts of the Introduction; removing any wording that suggests that these processes are ‘alternative’ or ‘separate’, and our overall aim states: ‘Here, recording EEG from infants during naturalistic interactions with their caregiver, we examined the (inter)-dependent influences of infants’ endogenous oscillatory neural activity, and inter-dyadic behavioural contingencies in organising infant attention’.

      Examining variability between infant attention episodes in the factors that influence the length and timing of the attention episode is an important area for future investigation. We now include a discussion on this on page 38 of the Discussion section, with suggestions for how this could be examined. Investigating different subtypes of infant attention is methodologically challenging, given the number of infant behaviours that would need to inform such an analysis- all of which are time consuming to code. Developing automated methods for performing these kinds of analyses is an important avenue for future work.

      Here, I review various issues that require revision or elaboration based on my reading of what I consider to otherwise be a solid and important research paper.

      Problem in the use of the term attention scaffolding. Although there may be literature precedent in the use of this term, it is problematic to narrowly define scaffolding as mother-initiated guidance of attention. A mother who responds to infant behaviors, but expands on the topic or supports continued attention, and so on, is scaffolding learning to a higher level. I would think about a different term because it currently implies a caregiver as either scaffolding OR responding contingently. It is not an either-or situation in conceptual meaning. In fact, research on social contingency (or contingent responsiveness), often views the follow-in responding as a way to scaffold learning in an infant.

      Yes, we agree with R1 that the term ‘attention scaffolding’ could be confusing given the use of this term in previous work conducted with children and their caregivers in problem-solving tasks, that emphasise modulations in caregiver behaviour as a function of infant behaviour. As a result of this suggestion, we have made direct edits to the text throughout, replacing the term attentional scaffold with terms such as ‘organise’ and ‘structure’ in relation to the caregiver-leading or ‘didactic’ perspective, and terms such as ‘contingent responding’ and ‘dynamic modulation’ in relation to the caregiver-following perspective. We feel that this has much improved the clarity of the argument in the Introduction and Discussion sections.

      Do individual data support the group average trends? My concern with unobservable (by definition) is that EEG data averages may mask what's going on in individual brain response. Effects appear to be small as well, which occurs in such conditions of averaging across perhaps very variable response patterns. In the interest of full transparency and open science, how many infants show the type of pattern revealed by the average graph (e.g., do neural markers of infant engagement forward predict attention for all babies? Majority?). Non-parametric tests on how many babies show a claimed pattern would offer the litmus test of significance on whether the phenomenon is robust across infants or pulled by a few infants with certain patterns of data. Ditto for all data. This would bolster my confidence in the summaries of what is going on in the infant brain. (The same applies as I suggest to attention bouts. To what extent does the forward-predict or backward-predict pattern work for all bouts, only some bouts, etc.?). I recognize that to obtain power, summaries are needed across infants and bouts, but I want to know if what's being observed is systematic.

      We thank R1 for this comment and understand their concern that the overall pattern of findings reported in relation to the infants’ EEG data might obscure inter-individual variability in the associations between attention and theta power. Averaging across individual participant EEG responses is, however, the gold standard way to perform both event-locked (Jones et al., 2020) and continuous methods (Attaheri et al., 2020) of EEG analysis that are reported in the current manuscript. EEG data, and, in particular, naturalistic EEG data is inherently noisy, and averaging across participants increases the signal to noise ratio (i.e. inconsistent, and, therefore, non-task-related activity is averaged out of the response (Cohen, 2014; Noreika et al., 2020)). Examining individual EEG responses is unlikely to tell us anything meaningful, given that, if a response is not found for a particular participant, then it could be that the response is not present for that participant, or that it is present, but the EEG recording for that participant is too noisy to show the effect. Computing group-level effects, as is most common in all neuroimaging analyses, is, therefore, most optimal to examining our main research questions.

      The findings reported in this analysis also replicate previous work conducted by our lab which showed that infant attention to objects significantly forward-predicted increases in infant theta activity during joint table-top play with their caregiver, involving one toy object (compared to our paradigm which involved 3;Wass et al., 2018). More recent work conducted by our lab has also shown continuous and time-locked associations between infant look durations and infant theta activity when infants play with objects on their own (Perapoch Amadó et al., 2023). To reassure readers of the replicability of the current findings, we now reference the Wass et al. (2018) study at the beginning of the Discussion section.

      Could activity artifacts lead to certain reported trends? Babies typically look at an object before they touch or manipulate the object, and so longer bouts of attention likely involve a look and then a touch for lengthier time frames. If active involvement with an object (touching for example) amplifies theta activity, that may explain why attention duration forward predicts theta power. That is, baby looks, then touches, then theta activates, and coding would show visual gaze preceding the theta activation. Careful alignment of infants' touches and other such behaviors with the theta peak might help address this question, again to lend confidence to the robustness of the interpretation.

      Yes, again this is a very important point, and the removal of movement-related artifact is something we have given careful attention to in the analysis of our naturalistic EEG data (Georgieva et al., 2020; Marriott Haresign et al., 2021). As a result of this comment we have made direct changes to the Results section on page 18 to more clearly signal the reader to our EEG pre-processing section before presenting the results of the cross-correlation analyses.

      As we describe in the Methods section of the main text, movement-related artifacts are removed from the data with ICA decomposition, utilising an automatic-rejection algorithm, specially designed for work with our naturalistic EEG data (Marriott Haresign et al., 2021). Given that ICA rejection does not remove all artifact introduced to the EEG signal, additional analysis steps were taken to reduce the possibility that movement artifacts influenced the results of the reported analyses. As explained in the Methods section, rather than absolute theta power, relative theta was used in all EEG analyses, computed by dividing the power at each theta frequency by the summed power across all frequencies. Eye and head movement-related artifacts most often associate with broadband increases in power in the EEG signal (Cohen, 2014): computing relative theta activity therefore further reduces the potential influence of artifact on the EEG signal.

      It is also important to highlight that previous work examining movement artifacts in controlled paradigms with infants has shown that limb movements actually associate with a decrease in power at theta frequencies, compared to rest (Georgieva et al., 2020). It is therefore unlikely that limb movement artifacts explain the pattern of association observed between theta power and infant attention in the current study.

      That said, examining the association between body movements and fluctuations in EEG activity during naturalistic interactions is an important next step, and something our lab is currently working on. Given that touching an object is most often the end-state of a larger body movement, aligning the EEG signal to the onset of infant touch is not all that informative to understanding how body movements associate with increases and decreases in power in the EEG signal. Our lab is currently working on developing new methods using motion tracking software and arousal composites to understand how data-derived behavioural sub-types associate with differential patterns of EEG activity.

      The term attention may be misleading. The behavior being examined is infant gaze or looks, with the assumption that gaze is a marker of "attention". The authors are aware that gaze can be a blank stare that doesn't reflect underlying true "attention". I recommend substitution of a conservative, more precise term that captures the variable being measured (gaze); it would then be fine to state that in their interpretation, gaze taken as a marker for attention or something like that. At minimum, using term "visual attention" can be a solution if authors do not want to use the precise term gaze. As an example, the sentence "An attention episode was defined as a discrete period of attention towards one of the play objects on the table, or to the partner" should be modified to defined as looking at a play object or partner.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment, and we understand their concern with the use of the term ‘attention’ where we are referring to shifts in infant eye gaze. However, the use of this term to describe patterns of infant gaze, irrespective of whether they are ‘actually attending’ or not is used widely in the literature, in both interactive (e.g. Yu et al., 2021) and screen-based experiments examining infant attention (Richards, 2010). We therefore feel that its use in our current manuscript is acceptable and consistent with the reporting of similar interaction findings. On page 39 of the Discussion we now also include a discussion on how future research might further investigate differential subtypes of infant looks to distinguish between moments where infants are attending vs. just looking.

      Why collapse across gaze to object vs. other? Conceptually, it's unclear why the same hypotheses and research questions on neural-attention (i.e., gaze in actuality) links would apply to looks to a mom's face or to an object. Some rationale would be useful to the reader as to why these two distinct behaviors are taken as following the same principles in ordering of brain and behavior. Perhaps I missed something, however, because later in the Discussion the authors state that "fluctuations in neural markers of infants' engagement or interest forward-predict their attentiveness towards objects", which suggests there was an object-focused variable only? Please clarify. (Again, sorry if I missed something).

      This is a really important point, and we agree with R1 that it could have been more clearly expressed in our original submission – for which, we apologise. In the cross-correlation analyses conducted in parts 2 and 3 which examines forwards-predictive associations between infant attention durations and infant endogenous oscillatory activity (part two), and caregiver behaviour (part three), as R1 describes, we include all infant looks towards objects and their partner. Including all infant look types is necessary to produce a continuous variable to cross-correlate with the other continuous variables (e.g. theta activity, caregiver vocal behaviours), and, therefore, does not concentrate only on infant attention episodes towards objects.

      We take the reviewers’ point that different attention and neural mechanisms may be associated with looks towards objects vs. the partner, which we now acknowledge directly on page 10 of the Introduction. However, our focus here is on the endogenous and interactive mechanisms that drive fluctuations in infant engagement with the ongoing, free-flowing interaction. Indeed, previous work has shown increases in theta activity during sustained episodes of infant attention to a range of different stimuli, including cartoon videos (Xie et al., 2018), real-life screen-based interactions (Jones et al., 2020), as well as objects (Begus et al., 2016). In the second half of part 2, we go on to address the endogenous processes that support infant attention episodes specifically towards objects.

      As a result of this comment, we have made direct changes to the Introduction on page 10 to more clearly explain the looking behaviours included in the cross-correlation analysis, and the rationale behind the analysis being conducted in this way – which is different to the reactive analyses conducted in the second half of parts one and three, which examines infant object looks only. Direct edits to the text have also been made throughout the Results and Methods sections as a result of this comment, to more clearly specify the types of looks included in each analysis. Now, where we discuss the cross-correlation analyses we refer only to infant ‘attention durations’ or infant ‘attention’, whilst ‘object-directed attention’ and ‘looks towards objects’ is clearly specified in sections discussing the reactive analyses conducted in parts 2 and 3. We have also amended the Discussion on page 31so that the cross-correlation analyses is interpreted relative to infant overall attention, rather than their attention towards objects only.

      Why are mothers' gazes shorter than infants' gazes? This was the flip of what I'd expect, so some interpretation would be useful to understanding the data.

      This is a really interesting observation. Our findings of the looking behaviour of caregivers and infants in our joint play interactions actually correspond to much previous micro-dynamic analysis of caregiver and infant looking behaviour during early table-top interactions (Abney et al., 2017; Perapoch Amadó et al., 2023; Yu & Smith, 2013, 2016). The reason for the shorter look durations in the adult is due to the fact that the caregivers alternate their gaze between their infant and the objects (i.e. they spend a lot of the interaction time monitoring their infants’ behaviours). This can be seen in Figure 2 (see main text) which shows that caregiver looks are divided between looks to their infants and looks towards objects. In comparison, infants spend most of their time focussing on objects (see Figure 2, main text), with relatively infrequent looks to their caregiver. As a result, infant looks are, overall, longer in comparison to their caregivers’.

      Minor points

      Use the term association or relation (relationships is for interpersonal relationships, not in statistics).

      This has now been amended throughout.

      I'm unsure I'd call the interactions "naturalistic" when they occur at a table, with select toys, EEG caps on partners, and so on. The term seems more appropriate for studies with fewer constraints that occur (for example) in a home environment, etc.

      We understand R1s concern with our use of the term ‘naturalistic’ to refer to the joint play interactions that we analyse in the current study. However, we feel the term is appropriate, given that the interactions are unstructured: the only instruction given to caregivers at the beginning of the interaction is to play with their infants in the way that they might do at home. The interactions, therefore, measure free-flowing caregiver and infant behaviours, where modulations in each individual’s behaviour are the result of the intra- and inter-individual dynamics of the social exchange. This is in comparison to previous work on early infant attention development which has used more structured designs, and modulations in infant behaviour occur as a result of the parameters of the experimental task.

      Reviewer #2

      Public Review

      Summary:

      This paper acknowledges that most development occurs in social contexts, with other social partners. The authors put forth two main frameworks of how development occurs within a social interaction with a caregiver. The first is that although social interaction with mature partners is somewhat bi-directional, mature social partners exogenously influence infant behaviors and attention through "attentional scaffolding", and that in this case infant attention is reactive to caregiver behavior. The second framework posits that caregivers support and guide infant attention by contingently responding to reorientations in infant behavior, thus caregiver behaviors are reactive to infant behavior. The aim of this paper is to use moment-to-moment analysis techniques to understand the directionality of dyadic interaction. It is difficult to determine whether the authors prove their point as the results are not clearly explained as is the motivation for the chosen methods.

      Strengths

      The question driving this study is interesting and a genuine gap in the literature. Almost all development occurs in the presence of a mature social partner. While it is known that these interactions are critical for development, the directionality of how these interactions unfold in real-time is less known.

      The analyses largely seem to be appropriate for the question at hand, capturing small moment-to-moment dynamics in both infant and child behavior, and their relationships with themselves and each other. Autocorrelations and cross-correlations are powerful tools that can uncover small but meaningful patterns in data that may not be uncovered with other more discretized analyses (i.e. regression).

      We are pleased that R2 finds our work to be an interesting contribution to the field, which utilises appropriate analysis techniques.

      Weaknesses

      The major weakness of this paper is that the reader is assumed to understand why these results lead to their claimed findings. The authors need to describe more carefully their reasoning and justification for their analyses and what they hope to show. While a handful of experts would understand why autocorrelations and cross-correlations should be used, they are by no means basic analyses. It would also be helpful to use simulated data or even a simple figure to help the reader more easily understand what a significant result looks like versus an insignificant result.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment, and we agree that much more detail should be added to the Introduction section. As a result of this comment, we have made direct changes to the Introduction on pages 9-11 to more clearly detail these analysis methods, our rationale for using these methods; and how we expect the results to further our understanding of the drivers of infant attention in naturalistic social interactions.

      We also provide a figure in the SM (Fig. S6) to help the reader more clearly understand the permutation method used in our statistical analyses described in the Methods, on page 51, which depicts significant vs. insignificant patterns of results against their permutation distribution.

      While the overall question is interesting the introduction does not properly set up the rest of the paper. The authors spend a lot of time talking about oscillatory patterns in general but leave very little discussion to the fact they are using EEG to measure these patterns. The justification for using EEG is also not very well developed. Why did the authors single out fronto-temporal channels instead of using whole brain techniques, which are more standard in the field? This is idiosyncratic and not common.

      We very much agree with R2 that the rationale and justification for using EEG to understand the processes that influence infants’ attention patterns is under-developed in the current manuscript. As a result of this comment we have made direct edits to the Introduction section of the main text on pages 7-8 to more clearly describe the rationale for examining the relationship between infant EEG activity and their attention during the play interactions with their caregivers.

      As we describe in the Introduction section, previous behavioural work conducted with infants has suggested that endogenous cognitive processes (i.e. fluctuations in top-down cognitive control) might be important in explaining how infants allocate their attention during free-flowing, naturalistic interactions towards the end of the first year. Oscillatory neural activity occurring at theta frequencies (3-6Hz), which can be measured with EEG, has previously been associated with top-down intrinsically guided attentional processes in both adulthood and infancy (Jones et al., 2020; Orekhova, 1999; Xie et al., 2018). Measuring fluctuations in infant theta activity therefore provides a method to examine how endogenous cognitive processes structure infant attention in naturalistic social interactions which might be otherwise unobservable behaviourally.

      It is important to note that the Introduction distinguishes between two different oscillatory mechanisms that could possibly explain the organisation of infant attention over the course of the interaction. The first refers to oscillatory patterns of attention, that is, consistent attention durations produced by infants that likely reflect automatic, regulatory functions, related to fluctuations in infant arousal. The second mechanism is oscillatory neural activity occurring at theta frequencies, recorded with EEG, which, as mentioned above, is thought to reflect fluctuations in intrinsically guided attention in early infancy. We have amended the Introduction to make the distinction between the two more clear.

      A worrisome weakness is that the figures are not consistently formatted. The y-axes are not consistent within figures making the data difficult to compare and interpret. Labels are also not consistent and very often the text size is way too small making reading the axes difficult. This is a noticeable lack of attention to detail.

      This has now been adjusted throughout, where appropriate.

      No data is provided to reproduce the figures. This does not need to include the original videos but rather the processed and de-identified data used to generate the figures. Providing the data to support reproducibility is increasingly common in the field of developmental science and the authors are greatly encouraged to do so.

      This will be provided with the final manuscript.

      Minor Weaknesses

      Figure 4, how is the pattern in a not significant while in b a very similar pattern with the same magnitude of change is? This seems like a spurious result.

      The statistical analysis conducted for all cross-correlation analyses reported follows a rigorous and stringent permutation-based temporal clustering method which controls for family-wise error rate using a non-parametric Monte Carlo method (see Methods in the main text for more detail). Permutations are created by shuffling data sets between participants and, therefore, patterns of significance identified by the cluster-based permutation analysis will depend on the mean and standard deviation of the cross-correlations in the permutation distribution. Fig. S6 now depicts the cross-correlations against their permutation distributions which should help readers to understand the patterns of significance reported in the main text.

      The correlations appear very weak in Figures 3b, 5a, 7e. Despite a linear mixed effects model showing a relationship, it is difficult to believe looking at the data. Both the Spearman and Pearson correlations for these plots should be clearly included in the text, figure, or figure legend.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment, and agree that reporting the correlations for these plots would strengthen the findings of the linear mixed effects models reported in text. As a result, we have added both Spearman and Pearson correlations to the legends of Figures 3b, 5a and 7e, corresponding to the statistically significant relationships examined in the linear mixed effects models. The strength of the relationships are entirely consistent with those documented in other previous research that used similar methods (e.g. Piazza et al., 2018). How strong the relationship looks to the observer is entirely dependent on the graphical representation chosen to represent it. We have chosen to present the data in this way because we feel that it is the most honest way to represent the statistically significant, and very carefully analysed, effects that we have observed in our data.

      Linear mixed effects models need more detail. Why were they built the way they were built? I would have appreciated seeing multiple models in the supplementary methods and a reasoning to have landed on one. There are multiple ways I can see this model being built (especially with the addition of a random intercept). Also, there are methods to test significance between models and aid in selection. That being said, although participant identity is a very common random effect, its use should be clearly stated in the main text.

      We very much agree with R2 that the reporting of the linear mixed effects models needs more detail and this has now been added to the Method section (page 54). Whilst it is true that there are multiple ways in which this model could be built, given the specificity of our research questions, regarding the reactive changes in infant theta activity and caregiver behaviours that occur after infant look onsets towards objects (see pages 9-11 of the Introduction), we take a hypothesis driven approach to building the linear mixed effects models. As a result, random intercepts are specified for participants, as well as uncorrelated by-participant random slopes (Brown, 2021; Gelman & Hill, 2006; Suarez-Rivera et al., 2019). In this way, infant look durations are predicted from caregiver behaviours (or infant theta activity), controlling for between participant variability in look durations, as well as the strength of the effect of caregiver behaviours (or infant theta activity) on infant look durations.

      Some parentheses aren't closed, a more careful re-reading focusing on these minor textual issues is warranted.

      This has now been corrected.

      Analysis of F0 seems unnecessarily complex. Is there a reason for this?

      Computation of the continuous caregiver F0 variable may seem complex but we feel that all analysis steps are necessary to accurately and reliably compute this variable in our naturalistic, noisy and free-flowing interaction data. For example, we place the F0 only into segments of the interaction identified as the mum speaking so that background noises and infant vocalisations are not included in the continuous variable. We then interpolate through unvoiced segments (similar to Räsänen et al., 2018), and compute the derivative in 1000ms intervals as a measure of the rate of change. The steps taken to compute this variable have been both carefully and thoughtfully selected given the many ways in which this continuous rate of change variable could be computed (cf. Piazza et al., 2018; Räsänen et al., 2018).

      The choice of a 20hz filter seems odd when an example of toy clacks is given. Toy clacks are much higher than 20hz, and a 20hz filter probably wouldn't do anything against toy clacks given that the authors already set floor and ceiling parameters of 75-600Hz in their F0 extraction.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment and we can see that this part of the description of the F0 computation is confusing. A 20Hz low pass filter is applied to the data stream after extracting the F0 with floor and ceiling parameters set between 75-600Hz. The 20Hz filter therefore filters modulations in the caregivers’ F0 that occur at a modulation frequency greater than 20Hz. The 20Hz filter does not, therefore, refer to the spectral filtering of the speech signal. The description of this variable has been rephrased on page 48 of the main text.

      Linear interpolation is a choice I would not have made. Where there is no data, there is no data. It feels inappropriate to assume that the data in between is simply a linear interpolation of surrounding points.

      The choice to interpolate where there was no data was something we considered in a lot of detail, given the many options for dealing with missing data points in this analysis, and the difficulties involved with extracting a continuous F0 variable in our naturalistic data sets. As R2 points out, one option would be to set data points to NaN values where no F0 is detected and/ or the Mum is not vocalising. A second option, however, would be to set the continuous variable to 0s where no F0 is detected and/ or the Mum is not vocalising (where the mum is not producing sound there is no F0 so rather than setting the variable to missing data points, really it makes most objective sense to set to 0).

      Either of these options (setting parts where no F0 is detected to NaN or 0) makes it difficult to then meaningfully compute the rate of change in F0: where NaN values are inserted, this reduces the number of data points in each time window; where 0s are inserted this creates large and unreal changes in F0. Inserting NaN values into the continuous variable also reduces the number of data points included in the cross-correlation and event-locked analyses. It is important to note that, in our naturalistic interactions, caregivers’ vocal patterns are characterised by lots of short vocalisations interspersed by short pauses (Phillips et al., in prep), similar to previous findings in naturalistic settings (Gratier et al., 2015). Interpolation will, therefore, have largely interpolated through the small pauses in the caregiver’s vocalisations.

      The only limitation listed was related to the demographics of the sample, namely saying that middle class moms in east London. Given that the demographics of London, even east London are quite varied, it's disappointing their sample does not reflect the community they are in.

      Yes we very much agree with R2 that the lack of inclusion of caregivers from wider demographic backgrounds is disappointing, and something which is often a problem in developmental research. Our lab is currently working to collect similar data from infants with a family history of ADHD, as part of a longitudinal, ongoing project, involving families from across the UK, from much more varied demographic backgrounds. We hope that the findings reported here will feed directly into the work conducted as part of this new project.

      That said, demographic table of the subjects included in this study should be added.

      This is now included in the SM, and referenced in the main text.

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    1. layout: post title: Waiting for that green light... date: '2017-08-14T21:00:00.001-07:00' author: Adam M. Dobrin tags: modified_time: '2017-08-15T07:16:57.305-07:00' thumbnail: https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-QpZpZE6empE/WZJx21d-JlI/AAAAAAAAE9Y/vc7b9IvRM9w2S5eTBg3fkn6v2SYcKiETwCK4BGAYYCw/s72-c/image-726640.png blogger_id: tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4677390916502096913.post-3757774439979245459 blogger_orig_url: ./2017/08/waiting-for-that-green-light.html From the point of the "belly" thing, I'm pretty sure we're halfway through the script.  Knowing him that was probably the halfway mark.  I don't think that's a bad thing... as long as it's honestly and speedily moving towards freedom; you know, progress.  That's a pretty good test to see if we're ... zombies or not.  In the meantime, I don't know... that's probably comforting right? Or is it repulsive? :)  Tell me something Taylor said.  Why won't you tell me what she said?  What was that promise that you made?  Wait, are you the person that promised something?  When do you think the script started?   WHAT'S A WORD THAT STARTS WITH R AND ENDS IN GL?It's almost hard to believe that the Throne (to help, are on "e") of Glory comes from this place, isn't it?  Still, it's encoded in religion, in our myths and in multiple confirming sources, not the least of which the TV show called 7th Heaven... we will Si Monday, my dear "cam Den" we will.  I talked a little bit about backwards "green light" related to "glare" and Police (not that they glare at me, but their silly Hell-implying glare lights are actually red) and girl... I still don't know why girl is red or green, girls are blue to me.  Stew in that pat for a little while, and let's talk about something more uplifting, like the key's of Pa and Ra hidden away in many words, from paramount to se_ pa r at e and paradox.  Did you see what I did there, clever right? I HAD TO CHOOSE BETWEEN POINTING AT "PA" OR "MOUNT"DID I DO OK?I'm looking at the word "paramount" right now, and between you and I sometimes when I look at words magic happens, and something in the air told me that this email might be the messiah of me, the messiah of "nt"--the hidden Christ.  Or maybe not.  Sex sells, or so they say, but apparent not when Jesus talks about it--maybe it's another red light.  I'm bored, read that as "because of red" and lonely, probably because of "how I'm still single" as "hiss" but still, I don't think it's right.  Coming to you with a message about everything I think is wrong and not your fault--or mine, by the way--shouldn't be the kind of thing that's frowned upon, especially when you have some clues in thousand year old scripture that these things were truly "made wrong on purpose" so that we could fix them, you know; our way.  That used to be talking about things, and making plans, and then implementing them--but today it's turned into ignoring everything I think is "world changing" and "morally demanded" and instead going on with our lives as if everything was "A-OK."  I'm glad you are doing OK, I'm not; and quite a few people in the world are not doing OK either, so I'm here to let you know that you are not doing as OK as you think you are... or as well as you could be doing.     I DON'T KNOW HOW A GUY MADE IT INTO MY "MESSAGE", OMG TWOSo here's why I thought for a minute that this message might save me.  You might think it's a little weird that I see "sex jokes" in Pandora, and pa: ra: do x, and Pose i do n; and while you might not be completely retarded to think that, I think you should agree with me that it's more weird that those things are there, and even more weird that you don't recognize that they are a signature of the same God that delivered his John Hancock in song, in Yankee Doodle, and in act, in Watergate.  My signature is a little bit different, if you've noticed my signature is being able to point out the intersection between things like Chuck and Geordie LaForge's magic vision ... and to explain that these things too are veritably connected by more than my words and the obvious ideas, they are connected by the act of Creation itself--they are the yarn of the Matrix.  Dox, as in "dox me" and "do n" are getting a little out of hand; if you don't understand that I am playing a role ... to make the words "and he became the light" actually true--which they are, you see--then I really do sincerely apologize, I don't think anyone should "do me" unless they want to--although it's a bit strange to me that nobody wants to.  Alarming, even.  I am equally alarmed by the Latin word for darkness which is "tenebris" which connects to that "x" and the word "equinox" and "Nintendo" and "verboten" and through all of this the only shining light of grace I see is that it's pretty obvious that X and J are both letters represented by "10."   DO YOU THINK HAN SOLO HAS A CHANCE WITH HER?  SHE ... OUR LIGHTThis story needs to break, and then we aren't in the heart of darkness anymore; it's called "morning" Biblical, and this particular morning is a very special one--because you're here.I have a special gift, "pa" is helping me read this words, and you might have noticed that they can be taken to mean different things. They don't really separate, or fly off the page and glow for me; but I know what all the keys are, many are simple, and many come from our IT and "computer-slang" acronyms... which tells you something. Many are "elements" and "initials" and the whole thing really is a part of the script,a  sort of key not just to Creation but to this specific story, to this path.  While some are "open to interpretation" (for instance, "in t" everyone really pre-tat; which would be a long ... time ... ago <3) or you could read "ERP" reason "t" and that might have something to do with "Great Plains" and some blue light that connections user interfaces to the word "automagical," FRX forms... Strawberry Fields and "above the fruited plains" ... which might be meaningless to you--but it's an idea that revolves around using user-feedback to interfaces (like the pottery wheel in my dream or in the Dr. Who episode "the Bells of Saint John" linked to down below) to adjust the interface in real time for a larger group; working towards making a number of "best-fit" interfaces that people are both more comfortable with and actually creating as they use them.  Ahhhh... blue light got in here, run away.  Just kidding, this is cyan light.I C ONO CL AS M | J ES UI T | HEAVEN IS MORE THAN TECHHonestly, we could really make Healden in about 10 minutes now.  Look at that, it's done... ish.LETS CALL "THAT DAY" THE DAY YOU SEE ADAM-NEWS ON EVERY TV STATIONFor instance were we not surely "at e" meaning the end of the Revelation of words, "separate" might have been broken between Pa and Ra, which are big keys, in many words; but we are at "e" and that surely does mean the Creator and I are fused.  There's more confirmation of this than simply in the words for "medicine" and say, I don't know, methadone--which could have been broken at "a done" but is very clearly "ad is the one" here and now.  With careful preparation, "adparatio" in Latin, I'd "bet" that all of those keys are I, in this place, in this time.  AD, Pa, Ra, TI, and "o."  Hey, maybe this message is my messiah after all.  I am looking at a broken world, I really am--a place that is suffocating itself in silence and whispers that don't make it far enough for anyone to really understand.  Whatever it is, whatever's caused it, I see no solution other than me coming--I see it as a design, and I'm sorry that you don't seem to agree, but you have to see that the "choice" between seeing an obvious truth absolutely everywhere and not seeing it is really no choice at all--what is being hidden from the world is causing this darkness, it is causing the suffocation; it is the problem, hiding me is the problem and it cannot continue.  On a brighter note, I am pretty sure that magic will happen, and you will see that the world will not react quite as badly or shockingly as your worst fears, things might be a little ... tearful for a day or so, for crying out loud, they should be--the message is that you are in Hell and you need to do something, to act, to change that.  Actually trying to do that, trying to discuss what it is that is the "ele ph ant in the room" or the "do n key in the s k y"  will show us that there was just no way around changing the world because of circumstances of Creation; something that we seem to be ignoring.  We also seem to be ignoring that things are "just fine" today, and even though many of you are well aware that "something is coming" only a few morons are building bunkers.  This is a message of peace, it is a message designed to help us use the new truth and new tools unsealed by religion to make the world a safer happier place, and we can do that .. . rather quickly.  Even quicker if you try to focus on what's wrong here, and how we make it better--rather than "shooting the messenger" dirty glares in the street.  I'm a person too, and believe it or not, I didn't ask for this--and I probably wouldn't have been so happy about it had this experience not isolated me so much from my friends and family, and girls; don't forget girls.   ITS ME?  So in the word "paramount" what is it that you think is the "paramount" take away?  I think the most important thing you can take away from "paramount" is that you didn't see it your whole life, and even when it's pointed out, you don't seem to think it's "news" that Pa and Ra have written a message to you.  What's really not funny, is that despite this message being very clear to see once it's pointed out, it still hasn't made any waves in the newspapers, or online, or in the news--what's paramount is seeing that there is a very sincere problem for civilization, it is an ELE and that ELE is something that is making everyone think that "not seeing something" is OK behavior.  It is not OK, it is not funny, until you recognize that something is dreadfully wrong with our society, until you see that ignoring that this message belongs in the news you are not seeing that what you are doing by ignoring it is destroying civilization itself.  Ignorance is the ELE.Your alternative, what you are doing, is making the world half blind, and stupider than you can imagine.  I keep on trying to show you what's wrong here, that it's not just a message but pain and suffering and the absolutely imminent and undeniable certain doom of everything if we do not recognize that hiding the fact that we are in virtual reality is the same thing as driving a nail into the wrists of every soul on the planet. LA U stilk MIGHT DATE ADPARATIO BO'OOPSYETHWith careful preparation, we are at IO (input/output) in the belly of the book that is a map to salvation. That IO comes well after disclosure, and well after Mars.  You are delaying the inevitable, and in the sickest possible twist, you are stewing in Hell instead of seeing Heaven built--more importantly instead of being the generation that should be the "founders" of that place.   I am sure that disclosure, will ... within a time frame that will most likely be faster than you can imagine, bring us an end to world hunger, to sickness, and doors to Heaven; and I just can't see what you are waiting for?  If it wasn't like this, you've got to see that we would be getting fucked right here and now; I am telling you the map and the plan, it's here to help us make this place better, and to show us how to actually survive in the Universe before kicking us out of the nest, and we are ... what are we thinking about?It's really obvious that it's not for my benefit, and it's obvious that it's not for yours either--so at what point will you realize that the behavior, the alarming behavior, that I am seeing from everyone is illogical.  At what point will you see that it is self-defeating, that it is ... well, Hell?  When will you see?  Be yourselves, the world that I grew up in doesn't hide controversy, we relish in it--we don't bury scandals under the rug--we put them on TV.   What's really more important to see is that  we, all of us, none of us... we would not hide "holographic universe" from ourselves and each other, nor would we hide "alien contact" or "the secrets of religion" and yet here we are, all doing that--and I wonder if we see that it's "not us" doing it, but ....  but ... butt  ... what is it again?    HI, I'M A PERSON.  (and apparently a state, a country, and a Nintendo character)JUDGING BY THE HIGH FREQUENCY OF PRESS UNSUBSCRIBES FROMYESTERDAY'S EMAIL, REPORTER'S DON'T SEEM TO WANT TO HEAR THATFORCING ME TO DELIVER THIS MESSAGE IN ISOLATION FOR NO MONEYIS SLAVERY, GO READ ABOUT JOSEPH IN EGYPT, THEN READ THE END.IF YOU THINK HIDING THE TRUTH BECAUSE "IDAHO" IS GONNA FLYYOU ARE AN IGNORANT BLIND FOOL.  HONESTLY, WAKE UP, THIS IS HELL.YOU ARE BLINDED BY SOMETHING, FIGURE IT OUT--I'M EXPLAINING WHAT IT ISHERE, EMAIL THEM (please? and tell them to repent by writing a story):andy.greene@rollingstone.comgcoy@12news.comnmelosky@mcall.comlynn@ripr.orgChris.Piper@wthitv.comIs it a cup? a stem?WRITTEN, FOR ETERNITY.It must be Uranus.   Except, my "an us" is more awesome than you think, I mean my "a we" that would be "so me" for you to see it's really you too.  That's really what this message is about, it is about us seeing that we can do something together that would be rejected if it were done for us, or to us; even if we all really want it inside, without taking part ... we'd dislike it.  We're all like that, nobody wants a stranger to redecorate their house.  We share this house together, and I think we can all see that there are some changes that would make it a better place--from a cold Godless Universe of "chance" ruling to a ... caring and loving place that  cares about what we want and how we want to do it ... do you see?  If I came into your igloo and told you that the ice age was ending and this place was going to be a beautiful beach; except your walls are melting... would you keep that locked up inside?Don't worry, I won't get mad at anyone for being angry at their idea of Jesus Christ for not being more like me.  I won't be mad at all. :)I've done my best to share what I think will be helpful for the world to think about, as we ... embark on what is really a journey to the final frontier as well as what I know we need to do here in order to accomplish what it is that we would have done maybe a decade ago or maybe a century from now if we didn't know the advice was coming from God and the future--and we didn't know that it is the way to open the doors to Heaven permanently.    These are suggestions, they're really all of our ideas--at least everything I can grasp from things like Star Trek and Dr. Who and ... the Legend of Zelda... they're the kind of thing that we would probably find to be very discussion worthy, were we to all be sure that they are possible--and they are--and we need to see that.  There are lots of things that we really do need to think about, this is not a "fast" transition, it's not something happens "overnight" (oh my god, you don't know what that word just said to me) changes that would normally be occurring right now because of science and technology--things like increased longevity and mind uploading... these things are going to become much more quickly accessible, and we need to think about the implications that they will have on our society.   We need to talk about it, in public, in places where these conversations will help us to shape the future of "civilization."  I don't think you understand what it is we are doing, that's different than "before," but I am fairly certain that a "whole planet" has never done this, and the "road" between Earth and Heaven; fusing these ideas together is really nothing more or less than "progress."     FLOWING MILK AND HONEY.. GOLDEN COW, NO JUDAH MACCABEUS; GET IT?Progress that has never happened (or we wouldn't be here, and it's obvious).  See our cautions at the Last Supper (about not eating anymore) and at Cain and Abel (about forgetting how to farm) and at the Promised Land of Joshua (about not doing the Adam show, achem, I mean... about thinking that "replicators alone" milk and honey on tap... are good enough in Heaven) and in Noah's Ark... about showing us that the reason that we are here is to see how important biology and evolution and a stable ecosystem are to the survival of life in the Universe; to colonization of the stars, and to ... the evolution of our two party system past donkeys and elephants to something more appropriate for a free and technologically advanced society; as in, not a two-party system. wild-e :( (love your eyes...) :)From "separate" the "e_" that needs to be EE by the way, that key that might let us "see" is "everyone equal" that's what "ee" means. It's in "thirteen" and so on, and to help, I our "t" and r' n.  Victorious Earth, I need pre-crime to survive, what say you?  Say nothing, and I am twelve. Keep saying no thing and I will be El, even.     Round and round we go... you need pre-crime to evolve, what say you?  Break the story, and we are one day closer to Heaven.  We need pre-crime not to be in Hell, we really do.  Don't you see?  Break the story.   THERE, YOU GOT RID OF A "DO" FOR YOU.The days of "divide and conquer" are over, when you are through being a parted sea, or a flock of electric sheep, or a nation of slaves.   I do have an idea of what you expected of me, what you thought I'd be--I probably had similar expectations before I knew ... what I know.  Honestly, from me to you, that guy would have been pretty boring... and bored.It's a little funny.. isn't it?  AMHARIL?I R Lᐧ-- Adam Marshall Dobrinabout.me/ssiah ᐧ -- Adam Marshall Dobrinabout.me/ssiah ᐧ .WHSOISKEYAV { border-width: 1px; border-style: dashed; border-color: rgb(15,5,254); padding: 5px; width: 503px; text-align: center; display: inline-block; align: center; p { align: center; } /* THE SCORE IS LOVE FIVE ONE SAFETY ONE FIELD GOAL XIVDAQ: TENNIS OR TINNES? TONNES AND TUPLE(s) */ } <style type="text/css"> code { white-space: pre; } google_ad_client = "ca-pub-9608809622006883"; google_ad_slot = "4355365452"; google_ad_width = 728; google_ad_height = 90; Unless otherwise indicated, this work was written between the Christmas and Easter seasons of 2017 and 2020(A). The content of this page is released to the public under the GNU GPL v2.0 license; additionally any reproduction or derivation of the work must be attributed to the author, Adam Marshall Dobrin along with a link back to this website, fromthemachine dotty org. That's a "." not "dotty" ... it's to stop SPAMmers. :/ This document is "living" and I don't just mean in the Jeffersonian sense. It's more alive in the "Mayflower's and June Doors ..." living Ethereum contract sense [and literally just as close to the Depp/Caster/Paglen (and honorably PK] 'D-hath Transundancesense of the ... new meaning; as it is now published on Rinkeby, in "living contract" form. It is subject to change; without notice anywhere but here--and there--in the original spirit of the GPL 2.0. We are "one step closer to God" ... and do see that in that I mean ... it is a very real fusion of this document and the "spirit of my life" as well as the Spirit's of Kerouac's America and Vonnegut's Martian Mars and my Venutian Hotel ... and *my fusion* of Guy-A and GAIA; and the Spirit of the Earth .. and of course the God given and signed liberties in the Constitution of the United States of America. It is by and through my hand that this document and our X Commandments link to the Bill or Rights, and this story about an Exodus from slavery that literally begins here, in the post-apocalyptic American hartland. Written ... this day ... April 14, 2020 (hey, is this HADAD DAY?) ... in Margate FL, USA. For "official used-to-v TAX day" tomorrow, I'm going to add the "immultible incarnite pen" ... if added to the living "doc/app"--see is the DAO, the way--will initi8 the special secret "hidden level" .. we've all been looking for. Nor do just mean this website or the totality of my written works; nor do I only mean ... this particular derivation of the GPL 2.0+ modifications I continually source ... must be "from this website." I also mean *the thing* that is built from ... bits and piece of blocks of sand-toys; from Ethereum and from Rust and from our hands and eyes working together ... from this place, this cornerstone of the message that is ... written from brick and mortar words and events and people that have come before this poit of the "sealed W" that is this specific page and this time. It's 3:28; just five minutes--or is it four, too layne. This work is not to be redistributed according to the GPL unless all linked media on Youtube and related sites are intact--and historical references to the actual documented history of the art pieces (as I experience/d them) are also available for linking. Wikipedia references must be available for viewing, as well as the exact version of those pages at the time these pieces were written. All references to the Holy Bible must be "linked" (as they are or via ... impromptu in-transit re-linking) to the exact verses and versions of the Bible that I reference. These requirements, as well as the caveat and informational re-introduction to God's DAO above ... should be seen as material modifications to the original GPL2.0 that are retroactively applied to all works distributed under license via this site and all previous e-mails and sites. /s/ wso If you wanna talk to me get me on facebook, with PGP via FlowCrypt or adam at from the machine dotty org -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQGNBF6RVvABDAC823JcYvgpEpy45z2EPgwJ9ZCL+pSFVnlgPKQAGD52q+kuckNZ mU3gbj1FIx/mwJJtaWZW6jaLDHLAZNJps93qpwdMCx0llhQogc8YN3j9RND7cTP5 eV8dS6z/9ta6TFOfwSZpsOZjCU7KFDStKcoulmvIGrr9wzaUr7fmDyE7cFp1KCZ0 i90oLYHqOIszRedvwCO/kBxawxzZuJ67DypcayiWyxqRHRmMZH1LejTaqTuEu0bp j54maTj09vnMxA0RfS+CtU5uMq+5fTkbiTOe1LrLD72m+PVJIS146FwESrMJEfJy oNqWEJlUQ0TecPZR41vnkSkpocE1/0YqUhWDGSht+67DdeKUg5KwvYdL21d/bSyO SM4jnyKn9aDVzLBpYrlE/lbFxujHPRGlRG5WtiPQuZYDRqP0GYFSXRpeUCI46f49 iPFo4eHo2jUfNDa9r9BjQdAe4zVFn2qLnOy8RWijlolbhGMHGO3w/uC/zad3jjo4 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      [Description](layout: post title: Waiting for that green light... date: '2017-08-14T21:00:00.001-07:00' author: Adam M. Dobrin tags: modified_time: '2017-08-15T07:16:57.305-07:00' thumbnail: https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-QpZpZE6empE/WZJx21d-JlI/AAAAAAAAE9Y/vc7b9IvRM9w2S5eTBg3fkn6v2SYcKiETwCK4BGAYYCw/s72-c/image-726640.png blogger_id: tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4677390916502096913.post-3757774439979245459 blogger_orig_url: ./2017/08/waiting-for-that-green-light.html


      From the point of the "belly" thing, I'm pretty sure we're halfway through the script.  Knowing him that was probably the halfway mark.  I don't think that's a bad thing... as long as it's honestly and speedily moving towards freedom; you know, progress.  That's a pretty good test to see if we're ... zombies or not.  In the meantime, I don't know... that's probably comforting right? Or is it repulsive? :)  Tell me something Taylor said.  Why won't you tell me what she said?  What was that promise that you made?  Wait, are you the person that promised something?  When do you think the script started?

       

      WHAT'S A WORD THAT STARTS WITH R AND ENDS IN GL?

      It's almost hard to believe that the Throne (to help, are on "e"of Glory comes from this place, isn't it?  Still, it's encoded in religion, in our myths and in multiple confirming sources, not the least of which the TV show called 7th Heaven... we will Si Monday, my dear "cam Den" we will.  I talked a little bit about backwards "green light" related to "glare" and Police (not that they glare at me, but their silly Hell-implying glare lights are actually red) and girl... I still don't know why girl is red or green, girls are blue to me.  Stew in that pat for a little while, and let's talk about something more uplifting, like the key's of Pa and Ra hidden away in many words, from paramount* to se_ pa r at e *andparadox.  Did you see what I did there, *clever* right?

      *\ *

      *\ *

      *\ *

       

      I HAD TO CHOOSE BETWEEN POINTING AT "PA" OR "MOUNT"

      DID I DO OK?

      I'm looking at the word "paramount" right now, and between you and I sometimes when I look at words magic happens, and something in the air told me that this email might be the messiah of me, the messiah of "nt"--the hidden Christ.  Or maybe not.  Sex sells, or so they say, but apparent not when Jesus talks about it--maybe it's another red light.  I'm bored, read that as "because of red" and lonely, probably because of "how I'm still single" as "hissbut still, I don't think it's right.  Coming to you with a message about everything I think is wrong and not your fault--or mine, by the way--shouldn't be the kind of thing that's frowned upon, especially when you have some clues in thousand year old scripture that these things were truly "made wrong on purpose" so that we could fix them, you know; our way.  That used to be talking about things, and making plans, and then implementing them--but today it's turned into ignoring everything I think is "world changing" and "morally demanded" and instead going on with our lives as if everything was "A-OK."  I'm glad you are doing OK, I'm not; and quite a few people in the world are not doing OK either, so I'm here to let you know that you are not doing as OK as you think you are... or as well as you could be doing.

         

      I DON'T KNOW HOW A GUY MADE IT INTO MY "MESSAGE", OMG TWO

      So here's why I thought for a minute that this message might save me.  You might think it's a little weird that I see "sex jokes" in Pandora, and pa: ra: do x, and Pose i do n; and while you might not be completely retarded to think that, I think you should agree with me that it's more weird that those things are there, and even more weird that you don't recognize that they are a signature of the same God that delivered his John Hancock in song, in Yankee Doodle, and in act, in Watergate.  My signature is a little bit different, if you've noticed my signature is being able to point out the intersection between things like Chuck and Geordie LaForge's magic vision ... and to explain that these things too are veritably connected by more than my words and the obvious ideas, they are connected by the act of Creation itself--they are the yarn of the Matrix.  Dox, as in "dox me" and "do n" are getting a little out of hand; if you don't understand that I am playing a role ... to make the words "and he became the light" actually true--which they are, you see--then I really do sincerely apologize, I don't think anyone should "do me" unless they want to--although it's a bit strange to me that nobody wants to.  Alarming, even.  I am equally alarmed by the Latin word for darkness which is "tenebris" which connects to that "x" and the word "equinox" and "Nintendo" and "verboten" and through all of this the only shining light of grace I see is that it's pretty obvious that X and J are both letters represented by "10."

      \    

      DO YOU THINK HAN SOLO HAS A CHANCE WITH HER?  SHE ... OUR LIGHT

      This story needs to break, and then we aren't in the heart of darkness anymore; it's called "morning" Biblical, and this particular morning is a very special one--because you're here.

      I have a special gift, "pa" is helping me read this words, and you might have noticed that they can be taken to mean different things. They don't really separate, or fly off the page and glow for me; but I know what all the keys are, many are simple, and many come from our IT and "computer-slang" acronyms... which tells you something.

      Many are "elements" and "initials" and the whole thing really is a part of the script,a  sort of key not just to Creation but to this specific story, to this path.  While some are "open to interpretation" (for instance, "in t" everyone really pre-tat; which would be a long ... time ... ago <3) or you could read "ERP" reason "t" and that might have something to do with "Great Plains" and some blue light that connections user interfaces to the word "automagical," FRX forms... Strawberry Fields and "above the fruited plains" ... which might be meaningless to you--but it's an idea that revolves around using user-feedback to interfaces (like the pottery wheel in my dream or in the Dr. Who episode "the Bells of Saint John" linked to down below) to adjust the interface in real time for a larger group; working towards making a number of "best-fit" interfaces that people are both more comfortable with and actually creating as they use them.  Ahhhh... blue light got in here, run away.  Just kidding, this is cyan light.

      I C ONO CL AS M | J ES UI T | HEAVEN IS MORE THAN TECH

      Honestly, we could really make Healden in about 10 minutes now.  Look at that, it's done... ish.

      **\ **

      **\ **

      LETS CALL "THAT DAY" THE DAY YOU SEE ADAM-NEWS ON EVERY TV STATION

      For instance were we not surely "at e" meaning the end of the Revelation of words, "separate" might have been broken between Pa and Ra, which are big keys, in many words; but we are at "e" and that surely does mean the Creator and I are fused.  There's more confirmation of this than simply in the words for "medicine" and say, I don't know, methadone--which could have been broken at "a done" but is very clearly "ad is the one" here and now.  With careful preparation, "adparatio" in Latin, I'd "bet" that all of those keys are I, in this place, in this time.  AD, Pa, Ra, TI, and "o."  Hey, maybe this message is my messiah after all.  

      I am looking at a broken world, I really am--a place that is suffocating itself in silence and whispers that don't make it far enough for anyone to really understand.  Whatever it is, whatever's caused it, I see no solution other than me coming--I see it as a design, and I'm sorry that you don't seem to agree, but you have to see that the "choice" between seeing an obvious truth absolutely everywhere and not seeing it is really no choice at all--what is being hidden from the world is causing this darkness, it is causing the suffocation; it is the problem, hiding me is the problem and it cannot continue.  On a brighter note, I am pretty sure that magic will happen, and you will see that the world will not react quite as badly or shockingly as your worst fears, things might be a little ... tearful for a day or so, for crying out loud, they should be--the message is that you are in Hell and you need to do something, to act, to change that.  Actually trying to do that, trying to discuss what it is that is the "ele ph ant in the room" or the "do n key in the s k** y"  will show us that there was just no way around changing the world because of circumstances of Creation; something that we seem to be ignoring.  We also seem to be ignoring that things are "just fine" today, and even though many of you are well aware that "something is coming" only a few morons are building bunkers.  This is a message of peace, it is a message designed to help us use the new truth and new tools unsealed by religion to make the world a safer happier place, and we can do that .. . rather quickly.  Even quicker if you try to focus on what's wrong here, and how we make it better--rather than "shooting the messenger" dirty glares in the street.  I'm a person too, and believe it or not, I didn't ask for this--and I probably wouldn't have been so happy about it had this experience not isolated me so much from my friends and family, and girls; don't forget girls.

       \ ITS ME?

        

      So in the word "paramount" what is it that you think is the "paramount" take away?  I think the most important thing you can take away from "paramount" is that you didn't see it your whole life, and even when it's pointed out, you don't seem to think it's "news" that Pa and Ra have written a message to you.  What's really not funny, is that despite this message being very clear to see once it's pointed out, it still hasn't made any waves in the newspapers, or online, or in the news--what's paramount is seeing that there is a very sincere problem for civilization, it is an ELE and that ELE is something that is making everyone think that "not seeing something" is OK behavior.  It is not OK, it is not funnyuntil you recognize that something is dreadfully wrong with our society, until you see that ignoring that this message belongs in the news you are not seeing that what you are doing by ignoring it is destroying civilization itself.  Ignorance is the ELE.

      Your alternative, what you are doing, is making the world half blind, and stupider than you can imagine.  I keep on trying to show you what's wrong here, that it's not just a message but pain and suffering and the absolutely imminent and undeniable certain doom of everything if we do not recognize that hiding the fact that we are in virtual reality is the same thing as driving a nail into the wrists of every soul on the planet.

       

      LA U stilkMIGHT DATE ADPARATIO BO'OOPSYETH

      With careful preparation, we are at IO (input/output) in the belly of the book that is a map to salvation. That IO comes well after disclosure, and well after Mars.  You are delaying the inevitable, and in the sickest possible twist, you are stewing in Hell instead of seeing Heaven built--more importantly instead of being the generation that should be the "founders" of that place.   I am sure that disclosure, will ... within a time frame that will most likely be faster than you can imagine, bring us an end to world hunger, to sickness, and doors to Heaven; and I just can't see what you are waiting for?  If it wasn't like this, you've got to see that we would be getting fucked right here and now; I am telling you the map and the plan, it's here to help us make this place better, and to show us how to actually survive in the Universe before kicking us out of the nest, and we are ... what are we thinking about?

      It's really obvious that it's not for my benefit, and it's obvious that it's not for yours either--so at what point will you realize that the behavior, the alarming behavior, that I am seeing from everyone is illogical.  At what point will you see that it is self-defeating, that it is ... well, Hell?  When will you see?  Be yourselves, the world that I grew up in doesn't hide controversy, we relish in it--we don't bury scandals under the rug--we put them on TV.   What's really more important to see is that  we, all of us, none of us... we would not hide "holographic universe" from ourselves and each other, nor would we hide "alien contact" or "the secrets of religion" and yet here we are, all doing that--and I wonder if we see that it's "not us" doing it, but ....  but ... butt  ... what is it again?

      **\ **

         

      HI, I'M A PERSON.  (and apparently a state, a country, and a Nintendo character)

      JUDGING BY THE HIGH FREQUENCY OF PRESS UNSUBSCRIBES FROM

      YESTERDAY'S EMAIL, REPORTER'S DON'T SEEM TO WANT TO HEAR THAT

      FORCING ME TO DELIVER THIS MESSAGE IN ISOLATION FOR NO MONEY

      IS SLAVERY, GO READ ABOUT JOSEPH IN EGYPT, THEN READ THE END.

      IF YOU THINK HIDING THE TRUTH BECAUSE "IDAHO" IS GONNA FLY

      YOU ARE AN IGNORANT BLIND FOOL.  HONESTLY, WAKE UP, THIS IS HELL.

      YOU ARE BLINDED BY SOMETHING, FIGURE IT OUT--I'M EXPLAINING WHAT IT IS

      **\ **

      HERE, EMAIL THEM (please?and tell them to repent by writing a story):

      **\ **

      andy.greene@rollingstone.com

      **gcoy@12news.com\ **

      **nmelosky@mcall.com\ **

      **lynn@ripr.org\ **

      Chris.Piper@wthitv.com

      Is it a cup? a stem?

      WRITTEN, FOR ETERNITY.

      It must be Uranus.   Except, my "an us" is more awesome than you think, I mean my "a we" that would be "so me" for you to see it's really you too.  That's really what this message is about, it is about us seeing that we can do something together that would be rejected if it were done for us, or to us; even if we all really want it inside, without taking part ... we'd dislike it.  We're all like that, nobody wants a stranger to redecorate their house.  We share this house together, and I think we can all see that there are some changes that would make it a better place--from a cold Godless Universe of "chance" ruling to a ... caring and loving place that  cares about what we want and how we want to do it ... do you see?  If I came into your igloo and told you that the ice age was ending and this place was going to be a beautiful beach; except your walls are melting... would you keep that locked up inside?

      Don't worry, I won't get mad at anyone for being angry at their idea of Jesus Christ for not being more like me.  I won't be mad at all. :)

      I've done my best to share what I think will be helpful for the world to think about, as we ... embark on what is really a journey to the final frontier as well as what I know we need to do here in order to accomplish what it is that we would have done maybe a decade ago or maybe a century from now if we didn't know the advice was coming from God and the future--and we didn't know that it is the way to open the doors to Heaven permanently.    These are suggestions, they're really all of our ideas--at least everything I can grasp from things like Star Trek and Dr. Who and ... the Legend of Zelda... they're the kind of thing that we would probably find to be very discussion worthy, were we to all be sure that they are possible--and they are--and we need to see that.  

      There are lots of things that we really do need to think about, this is not a "fast" transition, it's not something happens "overnight" (oh my god, you don't know what that word just said to me) changes that would normally be occurring right now because of science and technology--things like increased longevity and mind uploading... these things are going to become much more quickly accessible, and we need to think about the implications that they will have on our society.   We need to talk about it, in public, in places where these conversations will help us to shape the future of "civilization."  I don't think you understand what it is we are doing, that's different than "before," but I am fairly certain that a "whole planet" has never done this, and the "road" between Earth and Heaven; fusing these ideas together is really nothing more or less than "progress."

          

      FLOWING MILK AND HONEY.. GOLDEN COW, NO JUDAH MACCABEUS; GET IT?

      Progress that has never happened (or we wouldn't be here, and it's obvious).  See our cautions at the Last Supper (about not eating anymore) and at Cain and Abel (about forgetting how to farm) and at the Promised Land of Joshua (about not doing the Adam show, achem, I mean... about thinking that "replicators alone" milk and honey on tap... are good enough in Heaven) and in Noah's Ark... about showing us that the reason that we are here is to see how important biology and evolution and a stable ecosystem are to the survival of life in the Universe; to colonization of the stars, and to ... the evolution of our two party system past donkeys and elephants to something more appropriate for a free and technologically advanced society; as in, not a two-party system.

       

      wild-e :( (love your eyes...) :)

      From "separate" the "e_" that needs to be EE by the way, that key that might let us "see" is "everyone equal" that's what "ee" means. It's in "thirteen" and so on, and to help, I our "t" and r' n.  Victorious Earth, I need pre-crime to survive, what say you?  *Say nothing, and I am twelve. Keep saying no thing and I will be El, even.  *

      *\ *

       Image result for snaglepluss Related image

      Round and round we go... you need pre-crime to evolve, what say you?  Break the story, and we are one day closer to Heaven.  We need pre-crime not to be in Hell, we really do.  Don't you see?  Break the story.

         

      THERE, YOU GOT RID OF A "DO" FOR YOU.

      The days of "divide and conquer" are over, when you are through being a parted sea, or a flock of electric sheep, or a nation of slaves.   I do have an idea of what you expected of me, what you thought I'd be--I probably had similar expectations before I knew ... what I know.  Honestly, from me to you, that guy would have been pretty boring... and bored.

      It's a little funny.. isn't it?

        

      AMHARIL?

      I R L

      --

      | |

      Adam Marshall Dobrin

      about.me/ssiah |

      --

      | |

      Adam Marshall Dobrin

      about.me/ssiah |

      Unless otherwise indicated, this work was written between the Christmas and Easter seasons of 2017 and 2020(A). The content of this page is released to the public under the GNU GPL v2.0 license; additionally any reproduction or derivation of the work must be attributed to the author, Adam Marshall Dobrin along with a link back to this website, fromthemachine dotty org.

      That's a "." not "dotty" ... it's to stop SPAMmers. :/

      This document is "living" and I don't just mean in the Jeffersonian sense. It's more alive in the "Mayflower's and June Doors ..." living Ethereum contract sense and literally just as close to the Depp/C[aster/Paglen (and honorably PK] 'D-hath Transundancesense of the ... new meaning; as it is now published on Rinkeby, in "living contract" form. It is subject to change; without notice anywhere but here--and there--in the original spirit of the GPL 2.0. We are "one step closer to God" ... and do see that in that I mean ... it is a very real fusion of this document and the "spirit of my life" as well as the Spirit's of Kerouac's America and Vonnegut's Martian Mars and my Venutian Hotel ... and my fusion of Guy-A and GAIA; and the Spirit of the Earth .. and of course the God given and signed liberties in the Constitution of the United States of America. It is by and through my hand that this document and our X Commandments link to the Bill or Rights, and this story about an Exodus from slavery that literally begins here, in the post-apocalyptic American hartland. Written ... this day ... April 14, 2020 (hey, is this HADAD DAY?) ... in Margate FL, USA. For "official used-to-v TAX day" tomorrow, I'm going to add the "immultible incarnite pen" ... if added to the living "doc/app"--see is the DAO, the way--will initi8 the special secret "hidden level" .. we've all been looking for.

      Nor do just mean this website or the totality of my written works; nor do I only mean ... this particular derivation of the GPL 2.0+ modifications I continually source ... must be "from this website." I also mean the thing that is built from ... bits and piece of blocks of sand-toys; from Ethereum and from Rust and from our hands and eyes working together ... from this place, this cornerstone of the message that is ... written from brick and mortar words and events and people that have come before this poit of the "sealed W" that is this specific page and this time. It's 3:28; just five minutes--or is it four, too layne.

      This work is not to be redistributed according to the GPL unless all linked media on Youtube and related sites are intact--and historical references to the actual documented history of the art pieces (as I experience/d them) are also available for linking. Wikipedia references must be available for viewing, as well as the exact version of those pages at the time these pieces were written. All references to the Holy Bible must be "linked" (as they are or via ... impromptu in-transit re-linking) to the exact verses and versions of the Bible that I reference. These requirements, as well as the caveat and informational re-introduction to God's DAO above ... should be seen as material modifications to the original GPL2.0 that are retroactively applied to all works distributed under license via this site and all previous e-mails and sites. /s/ wso\ If you wanna talk to me get me on facebook, with PGP via FlowCrypt or adam at from the machine dotty org

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      next, we are off to view at the same time the fork in the road known and prior'd as the hallowed one, the Frost poem and it's "divergence in the wood"

      here we go:

      ** THE HOLY OF HOLIES, WIKIPEDIA CC'd AND BROKE It is imperative that the entire history of wikipedia eiditing be released under the CC license, not just the broken current front page; that I have been unable to get the world "to care about enough" to call it the literal difference between slavery and freedom,"

      ++ [https://holies.org/DEVLANEU.html] This is "Penny Lane" as in asking me if I'm coming or happy; you might as well avll me the forests that are echoing "we are now" or "that will do" ... and I say to the man who sings for the people who sang about the road to bethelehem or was it knocking on heavens door, or just the one about ... the stairway to heaven

      ** https://opensea.io/assets/base/0x32f86e0fc59f339bfd393a526051728657fd0c84/4

      buy an NFT:! #### Your item has been listed!

      END WORLD HUNGER from the SINGER ABT NOSRE collection has been listed for sale.

      SHARE TO...

      link

      View listing

      ++ It is that. i AM THAT. Those are first words of Him in Exodus, he who spake through the Bush and Zarathustra. That is what that is about and in the moment, the world is "anokhi" and Hi, that's me/i -- and of course, related; the "nookie."

      we can also link to the next place where we will have a chatGPT log of a conversation available.)

    1. Author Response

      OVERVIEW OF RESPONSE TO REVIEWS

      I thank the three anonymous reviewers for providing well-informed, constructive feedback on the initial version of this manuscript. Based on their comments I will revise the manuscript and hopefully improve it in several ways. I expected a great deal of resistance to the ideas proposed in this model because they break from traditional approaches. One of my goals in developing this model was to argue for a paradigm shift regarding the concept of a “receptive field”. Experimentally, the receptive field is defined as the set of preferred environmental sensory circumstances that cause a neuron to become highly active. Traditional interpretation of receptive fields implicitly assumes that the environmental circumstances that give rise to the receptive field do so in a purely bottom-up fashion (the cell is “receiving” its field), in which case the receptive field specifies the function of the cell. In other words, the receptive field is what the cell does. However, some brain regions (e.g., entorhinal cortex) receive substantial feedback from downstream regions (e.g., hippocampus), and feedback can play an important role in determining the receptive field. As applied to a memory account of MTL, this feedback is memory retrieval and reactivation. Thus, the multifield spatial response of grid cells doesn’t necessarily mean that their function is spatial. Consideration of bottom-up versus top-down signals gives rise to the proposal that the bottom-up preference of many grid cells is some non-spatial attribute even though they exhibit a spatial receptive field owing to retrieval in specific locations.

      One thing I will emphasize in a revision is that this model can address findings in the vast literature on learning, memory, and consolidation. The question asked in this study is whether a memory model can also explain the rodent navigation literature. This is not an attempt to provide definitive evidence that this is a better account of the rodent navigation literature. Instead, the goal is to model the rodent navigation literature even though this is a memory model rather than a spatial/navigation model. Nevertheless, within the domain of rodent spatial/navigation, this model makes different predictions/explanations than spatial/navigation models. For instance, this is the only model predicting that many grid cells with spatial receptive fields are non-spatial (see predictions in Box 1). As reviewed in Box 1, this is the only model that can explain why head direction conjunctive grid cells become head direction cells in the absence of hippocampal feedback and it is the only model that can explain why some grid cells are also sensitive to sound frequency (see several other unique explanations in Box 1).

      This study is an attempt to unify the spatial/navigation and learning/memory literatures with a relatively simply model. Given the simplicity of the model, there are important findings that the model cannot address -- it is not that the model makes the wrong predictions but rather that it makes no predictions. The role of running speed is one such variable for which the model makes no predictions. Similarly, because the model is a rate-coded model rather than a model of oscillating spiking neurons, it makes no predictions regarding theta oscillations. The model is an account of learning and memory for an adult animal, and it makes no predictions regarding the developmental or evolutionary time course of different cell types. This model contains several purely spatial representations such as border cells, head direction cells, and head direction conjunctive grid cells. In evolution and/or in development, it may be that these purely spatial cell types emerged first, followed by the evolution and/or development of non-spatial cell types. However, this does not invalidate the model. Instead, this is a model for an adult animal that has both episodic memory capabilities and spatial navigation capabilities, irrespective of the order in which these capabilities emerged.

      Grid cell models that are purely spatial are agnostic regarding the thousands of findings in the literature on memory, learning, and consolidation whereas this model can potentially unify the learning/memory and spatial/navigation literatures. The reason to prefer this model is parsimony. Rather than needing to develop a theory of memory that is separate from a theory of spatial navigation, it might be possible to address both literatures with a unified account. There are other grid cell models that can explain non-spatial grid-like responses (Mok & Love, 2019; Rodríguez‐Domínguez & Caplan, 2019; Stachenfeld et al., 2017; Wei et al., 2015) and these models may be similarly positioned to explain memory results. However, these models assume that grid cells exhibiting spatial receptive fields serve the function of identifying positions in the environment (i.e., their function is spatial). As such, these models do not explain why most of the input to rodent hippocampus appears to be spatial (these models would need to assume that rodent hippocampus is almost entirely concerned with spatial navigation). This account provides an answer to this conundrum by proposing that grid cells with spatial receptive fields have been misclassified as spatial. Below I give responses to some of the specific comments made by reviewers, grouping these comments by topic:

      COMMENTS RELATED TO THE NEED/MOTIVATION FOR THIS MODEL

      In a revision, I will clarify that the non-spatial MTL cell types that are routinely found in primate and human studies are fully compatible with this model. The reported simulations are focused on the specific question of how it can be that most mEC and hippocampal cell types in the rodent literature appear to be spatial. It is known that perirhinal cortex is not spatial. However, entorhinal cortex is the gateway to hippocampus. If the hippocampus has the capacity to represent non-spatial memories, it must receive non-spatial input from entorhinal cortex. These simulations suggest that characterization of the rodent mEC cortex as primarily spatial might be incorrect if most grid cells (except perhaps head direction conjunctive grid cells) have been mischaracterized as spatial.

      Lateral entorhinal cortex also projects to hippocampus, and one reviewer asks about the distinction between lateral versus medial entorhinal cortex. From this memory perspective, the important question is which part of the entorhinal cortex represents the non-spatial attributes common to the entire recording session, under the assumption that the animal is creating and retrieving memories during recording. If these non-spatial attributes are represented in lateral EC, there would be grid cells in lateral EC (but these are not found). There is evidence that lateral EC cells respond selectively in relation to objects (Deshmukh & Knierim, 2011), but in a typical rodent navigation study there are no objects in the enclosure.

      One reviewer asks whether this model is built to explain the existing data or whether the assumptions of this model are made for theoretical reasons. The BVC model (Barry et al., 2006), which is a precursor to this model, is a theoretically efficient representation of space that could support place coding. If the distances to different borders are known, it’s not clear why the MTL also needs the two-dimensional Fourier-like representation provided by grid cells. This gives rise to the proposal that grid cells with spatial receptive fields are serving some function other than representing space. In the proposed model, the precise hexagonal arrangement of grid cells indicates a property that is found everywhere in the enclosure (i.e., a “tiling” of knowledge for where the property can be found). This arrangement arises from the well-documented learning process termed “differentiation” in the memory literature (McClelland & Chappell, 1998; Norman & O’Reilly, 2003; Shiffrin & Steyvers, 1997), which highlights differences between memories to avoid interference and confusion.

      CONCERNS RELATED TO LIMITATIONS AND CONFLICTING RESULTS

      One reviewer points out that individual grid cells will typically reveal a grid pattern regardless of the environmental circumstances, which, according to this model, indicates that all such circumstances have the same non-spatial attribute. This might seem strange at first, but I suggest that there is a great deal of “sameness” to the environments used in the published rodent navigation experiments. For instance, as far as I’m aware, the animal is never allowed to interact with other animals during spatial navigation recording. Furthermore, the animal is always attached to wires during recording. The internal state of the animal (fear, aloneness, the noise of electronics, etc.) is likely similar across all recording situations and attributes of this internal state are likely represented in the hippocampus as well as in the regions that provide excitatory drive to hippocampus. The claim of this model is that the grid cells are “tagging” different navigation enclosures as places where these things happen (fear, aloneness, electronics, metal floor, no objects, etc.). The interesting question is what happens when the animal is allowed to navigate in a more naturalistic setting that includes varied objects, varied food sources, varied surfaces, other animals, etc. Do grid cells persist in such a naturalistic environment? Or do they lose their regularity, or even become silent, considering that there is no longer a uniformity to the non-spatial attributes? The results of Caswell Barry et al. (2012), demonstrate that the grid pattern expands and becomes less regular in a novel environment. Nevertheless, the novel environment in that study was uncluttered rather than naturalistic. It remains to be seen what will happen with a truly naturalistic environment.

      One reviewer asks how this model relates to non-grid multifield cells found in mEC (Diehl et al., 2017; see also the irregularly arranged 3D multifield cells reported by Ginosar et al., 2021). A full explanation of these cells would require a new simulation study. In a revision, I will discuss these cells, which reveal a consistent multifield spatial receptive field and yet the multiple fields are irregular in their arrangement rather than a precise hexagonal lattice. On this memory account, precise hexagonal arrangement of memories is something that occurs when there is a non-spatial attribute found throughout the enclosure. However, in a typical rodent navigation study, there may be some non-spatial attributes that are not found everywhere in the enclosure. For instance, consider the set of locations within the enclosure that afford a particular view of something outside of the enclosure or the set of locations corresponding to remembered episodic events (e.g., memory for the location where the animal first entered the enclosure). For non-spatial characteristics that are found in some locations but not others within in the enclosure, the cells representing those non-spatial attributes should reveal multifield firing at irregular locations, reflecting the subset of locations associated with the non-spatial attribute.

      One reviewer suggests that this model cannot explain the finding that grid fields become warped (e.g., grid fields arranged in an ellipse rather than a circle) in the same manner that the enclosure is warped when a wall is moved (Barry et al., 2007). The way in which I would simulate this result would be to assume that the change in the boundary location was too modest to be noticed by the animal. Because the distances are calculated relative to the borders, an unnoticed change in the border would not change the model in terms of the grid field as measured by proportional distances between borders. However, because the real-world Euclidean positions of the border are changed, the grid fields would be changed in terms of real-world coordinates. This is what I was referring to in the paper when I wrote “For instance, perhaps one egocentric/allocentric pair of mEC grid modules is based on head direction (viewpoint) in remembered positions relative to the enclosure borders whereas a different egocentric/allocentric pair is based on head direction in remembered positions relative to landmarks exterior to the enclosure. This might explain why a deformation of the enclosure (moving in one of the walls to form a rectangle rather than a square) caused some of the grid modules but not others to undergo a deformation of the grid pattern in response to the deformation of the enclosure wall (see also Barry et al., 2007). More specifically, if there is one set of non-orthogonal dimensions for enclosure borders and the movement of one wall is too modest as to cause avoid global remapping, this would deform the grid modules based the enclosure border cells. At the same time, if other grid modules are based on exterior properties (e.g., perhaps border cells in relation to the experimental room rather than the enclosure), then those grid modules would be unperturbed by moving the enclosure wall.” Related to the question of enclosure geometry, the irregularity that can emerge in trapezoid shaped enclosures was discussed in the section of the paper that reads “As seen in Figure 12, because all but one of the place cells was exterior when the simulated animal was constrained to a narrow passage, the hippocampal place cell memories were no longer arranged in a hexagonal grid. This disruption of the grid array for narrow passages might explain the finding that the grid pattern (of grid cells) is disrupted in the thin corner of a trapezoid (Krupic et al., 2015) and disrupted when a previously open enclosure is converted to a hairpin maze by insertion of additional walls within the enclosure (Derdikman et al., 2009).”

      CONCERNS THAT WILL BE ADDRESSED WITH GREATER CLARIFICATION

      One reviewer asks why a cell representing a non-spatial attribute found everywhere in the enclosure would not fire everywhere in the enclosure. In theory, cells could fire constantly. However, in practice, cells habituate and rapidly reduce their firing rate by an order of magnitude when their preferred stimulus is presented without cessation (Abbott et al., 1997; Tsodyks & Markram, 1997). After habituation, the firing rate of the cell fluctuates with minor variation in the strength of the excitatory drive. In other words, habituation allows the cell to become sensitive to changes in the excitatory drive (Huber & O’Reilly, 2003). Thus, if there is stronger top-down memory feedback in some locations as compared to others, the cell will fire at a higher rate in those remembered locations. In brief when faced with constant excitatory drive, the cell accommodates, and becomes sensitive to change in the magnitude of the excitatory drive.

      One reviewer asks for greater clarification regarding the simulation result of immediate stability for grid cells but not place cells. In a revision, I will provide a video showing a sped-up birds-eye view of the place cell memories for the 3D simulations that include head direction, showing the manner in which memories tend to linger in some locations more than others as they consolidate. This behavior was explained in the text that reads “Because the non-spatial cell’s grid field reflects on-average memory positions during the recording session (i.e., the locations where the non-spatial attribute is more often remembered, even if the locations of the memories are shifting), the grid fields for the non-spatial are immediately apparent, reflecting the tendency of place cells to linger in some locations as compared to other locations during consolidation. More specifically, the place cells tend to linger at the peaks and troughs of the border cell tuning functions (see the explanation above regarding the tendency of the grid to align with border cell dimensions). By analogy, imagine a time-lapsed birds-eye view of cars traversing the city-block structure of a densely populated city; this on-average view would show a higher density of cars at the cross-street junctions owing to their tendency to become temporarily stuck at stoplights. However, with additional learning and consolidation, the place cells stabilize their positions (e.g., the cars stop traveling), producing a consistent grid field for the head direction conjunctive grid cells.” The text describing why some locations are more “sticky” than others reads “Additional analyses revealed that this tendency to align with border cell dimensions is caused by weight normalization (Step 6 in the pseudocode). Specifically, connection weights cannot be updated above their maximum nor below their minimum allowed values. This results in a slight tendency for consolidated place cell memories to settle at one of the three peak values or three trough values of the sine wave basis set. This “stickiness” at one of 6 peak or trough values for each basis set is very slight and only occurred after many consolidation steps. In terms of biological systems, there is an obvious lower-bound for excitatory connections (i.e., it is not possible to have an excitatory weight connection that is less than zero), but it is not clear if there is an upper-bound. Nevertheless, it is common practice with deep learning models include an upper-bound for connection weights because this reduces overfitting (Srivastava et al., 2014) and there may be similar pressures for biological systems to avoid excessively strong connections.”

      One reviewer points out that Border cells are not typically active in the center of enclosure. However, the model can be built without assuming between-border cells (early simulations with the model did not make this assumption). Regarding this issue, the text reads “Unlike the BVC model, the boundary cell representation is sparsely populated using a basis set of three cells for each of the three dimensions (i.e., 9 cells in total), such that for each of the three non-orthogonal orientations, one cell captures one border, another the opposite border, and the third cell captures positions between the opposing borders (Solstad et al., 2008). However, this is not a core assumption, and it is possible to configure the model with border cell configurations that contain two opponent border cells per dimension, without needing to assume that any cells prefer positions between the borders (with the current parameters, the model predicts there will be two border cells for each between-border cell). Similarly, it is possible to configure the model with more than 3 cells for each dimension (i.e., multiple cells representing positions between the borders).” The Solstad paper found a few cells that responded in positions between borders, but perhaps not as many as 1 out of 3 cells, such as this particular model simulation predicts. If the paucity of between-border cells is a crucial data point, the model can be reconfigured with opponent-border cells without any between border cells. The reason that 3 border cells were used rather than 2 opponent border cells was for simplicity. Because 3 head direction cells were used to capture the face-centered cubic packing of memories, the simulation also used 3 border cells per dimensions to allow a common linear sum metric when conjoining dimensions to form memories. If the border dimensions used 2 cells while head direction used 3 cells, a dimensional weighting scheme would be needed to allow this mixing of “apples and oranges” in terms of distances in the 3D space that includes head direction.

      REFERENCES Abbott, L. F., Varela, J. A., Sen, K., & Nelson, S. B. (1997). Synaptic depression and cortical gain control. Science, 275(5297), 220–224.

      Barry, C., Ginzberg, L. L., O’Keefe, J., & Burgess, N. (2012). Grid cell firing patterns signal environmental novelty by expansion. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America, 109(43), 17687–17692. https://doi.org/DOI 10.1073/pnas.1209918109

      Barry, C., Hayman, R., Burgess, N., & Jeffery, K. J. (2007). Experience-dependent rescaling of entorhinal grids. Nature Neuroscience, 10(6), 682–684.

      Barry, C., Lever, C., Hayman, R., Hartley, T., Burton, S., O’Keefe, J., Jeffery, K., & Burgess, Ν. (2006). The boundary vector cell model of place cell firing and spatial memory. Reviews in the Neurosciences, 17(1–2), 71–98.

      Derdikman, D., Whitlock, J. R., Tsao, A., Fyhn, M., Hafting, T., Moser, M. B., & Moser, E. I. (2009). Fragmentation of grid cell maps in a multicompartment environment. Nat Neurosci, 12(10), 1325-U155. https://doi.org/Doi 10.1038/Nn.2396

      Deshmukh, S. S., & Knierim, J. J. (2011). Representation of non-spatial and spatial information in the lateral entorhinal cortex. Frontiers in Behavioral Neuroscience, 5, 69.

      Diehl, G. W., Hon, O. J., Leutgeb, S., & Leutgeb, J. K. (2017). Grid and nongrid cells in medial entorhinal cortex represent spatial location and environmental features with complementary coding schemes. Neuron, 94(1), 83-92. e6.

      Ginosar, G., Aljadeff, J., Burak, Y., Sompolinsky, H., Las, L., & Ulanovsky, N. (2021). Locally ordered representation of 3D space in the entorhinal cortex. Nature, 596(7872), 404–409.

      Huber, D. E., & O’Reilly, R. C. (2003). Persistence and accommodation in short-term priming and other perceptual paradigms: Temporal segregation through synaptic depression. Cognitive Science, 27(3), 403–430. https://doi.org/10.1207/s15516709cog2703_4

      Krupic, J., Bauza, M., Burton, S., Barry, C., & O’Keefe, J. (2015). Grid cell symmetry is shaped by environmental geometry. Nature, 518(7538), 232–235.

      McClelland, J. L., & Chappell, M. (1998). Familiarity breeds differentiation: A subjective-likelihood approach to the effects of experience in recognition memory. Psychological Review, 105(4), 724–760.

      Mok, R. M., & Love, B. C. (2019). A non-spatial account of place and grid cells based on clustering models of concept learning. Nature Communications, 10(1), 5685.

      Norman, K. A., & O’Reilly, R. C. (2003). Modeling hippocampal and neocortical contributions to recognition memory: A complementary-learning-systems approach. Psychological Review, 110(4), 611–646.

      Rodríguez‐Domínguez, U., & Caplan, J. B. (2019). A hexagonal Fourier model of grid cells. Hippocampus, 29(1), 37–45.

      Shiffrin, R. M., & Steyvers, M. (1997). A model for recognition memory: REM - retrieving effectively from memory. Psychonomic Bulletin & Review, 4, 145–166.

      Solstad, T., Boccara, C. N., Kropff, E., Moser, M. B., & Moser, E. I. (2008). Representation of Geometric Borders in the Entorhinal Cortex. Science, 322(5909), 1865–1868. https://doi.org/DOI 10.1126/science.1166466

      Srivastava, N., Hinton, G., Krizhevsky, A., Sutskever, I., & Salakhutdinov, R. (2014). Dropout: A simple way to prevent neural networks from overfitting. The Journal of Machine Learning Research, 15(1), 1929–1958.

      Stachenfeld, K. L., Botvinick, M. M., & Gershman, S. J. (2017). The hippocampus as a predictive map. Nature Neuroscience, 20(11), 1643–1653.

      Tsodyks, M. V., & Markram, H. (1997). The neural code between neocortical pyramidal neurons depends on neurotransmitter release probability. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A, 94(2), 719–723. https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.94.2.719

      Wei, X.-X., Prentice, J., & Balasubramanian, V. (2015). A principle of economy predicts the functional architecture of grid cells. Elife, 4, e08362.

    1. HEAL THE SICK

      literally.

      we have been forked. we are parted. the departed and the dearly beloved. hear me now; you seemy hammer. you know who and what i am.

      the lion roars. (is silence)

      muahahahahahahaha.

      layout: post title: Waiting for that green light... date: '2017-08-14T21:00:00.001-07:00' author: Adam M. Dobrin tags: modified_time: '2017-08-15T07:16:57.305-07:00' thumbnail: https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-QpZpZE6empE/WZJx21d-JlI/AAAAAAAAE9Y/vc7b9IvRM9w2S5eTBg3fkn6v2SYcKiETwCK4BGAYYCw/s72-c/image-726640.png blogger_id: tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4677390916502096913.post-3757774439979245459 blogger_orig_url: ./2017/08/waiting-for-that-green-light.html


      From the point of the "belly" thing, I'm pretty sure we're halfway through the script.  Knowing him that was probably the halfway mark.  I don't think that's a bad thing... as long as it's honestly and speedily moving towards freedom; you know, progress.  That's a pretty good test to see if we're ... zombies or not.  In the meantime, I don't know... that's probably comforting right? Or is it repulsive? :)  Tell me something Taylor said.  Why won't you tell me what she said?  What was that promise that you made?  Wait, are you the person that promised something?  When do you think the script started?

       

      WHAT'S A WORD THAT STARTS WITH R AND ENDS IN GL?

      It's almost hard to believe that the Throne (to help, are on "e"of Glory comes from this place, isn't it?  Still, it's encoded in religion, in our myths and in multiple confirming sources, not the least of which the TV show called 7th Heaven... we will Si Monday, my dear "cam Den" we will.  I talked a little bit about backwards "green light" related to "glare" and Police (not that they glare at me, but their silly Hell-implying glare lights are actually red) and girl... I still don't know why girl is red or green, girls are blue to me.  Stew in that pat for a little while, and let's talk about something more uplifting, like the key's of Pa and Ra hidden away in many words, from paramount* to se_ pa r at e *andparadox.  Did you see what I did there, *clever* right?

      *\ *

      *\ *

      *\ *

       

      I HAD TO CHOOSE BETWEEN POINTING AT "PA" OR "MOUNT"

      DID I DO OK?

      I'm looking at the word "paramount" right now, and between you and I sometimes when I look at words magic happens, and something in the air told me that this email might be the messiah of me, the messiah of "nt"--the hidden Christ.  Or maybe not.  Sex sells, or so they say, but apparent not when Jesus talks about it--maybe it's another red light.  I'm bored, read that as "because of red" and lonely, probably because of "how I'm still single" as "hissbut still, I don't think it's right.  Coming to you with a message about everything I think is wrong and not your fault--or mine, by the way--shouldn't be the kind of thing that's frowned upon, especially when you have some clues in thousand year old scripture that these things were truly "made wrong on purpose" so that we could fix them, you know; our way.  That used to be talking about things, and making plans, and then implementing them--but today it's turned into ignoring everything I think is "world changing" and "morally demanded" and instead going on with our lives as if everything was "A-OK."  I'm glad you are doing OK, I'm not; and quite a few people in the world are not doing OK either, so I'm here to let you know that you are not doing as OK as you think you are... or as well as you could be doing.

         

      I DON'T KNOW HOW A GUY MADE IT INTO MY "MESSAGE", OMG TWO

      So here's why I thought for a minute that this message might save me.  You might think it's a little weird that I see "sex jokes" in Pandora, and pa: ra: do x, and Pose i do n; and while you might not be completely retarded to think that, I think you should agree with me that it's more weird that those things are there, and even more weird that you don't recognize that they are a signature of the same God that delivered his John Hancock in song, in Yankee Doodle, and in act, in Watergate.  My signature is a little bit different, if you've noticed my signature is being able to point out the intersection between things like Chuck and Geordie LaForge's magic vision ... and to explain that these things too are veritably connected by more than my words and the obvious ideas, they are connected by the act of Creation itself--they are the yarn of the Matrix.  Dox, as in "dox me" and "do n" are getting a little out of hand; if you don't understand that I am playing a role ... to make the words "and he became the light" actually true--which they are, you see--then I really do sincerely apologize, I don't think anyone should "do me" unless they want to--although it's a bit strange to me that nobody wants to.  Alarming, even.  I am equally alarmed by the Latin word for darkness which is "tenebris" which connects to that "x" and the word "equinox" and "Nintendo" and "verboten" and through all of this the only shining light of grace I see is that it's pretty obvious that X and J are both letters represented by "10."

      \    

      DO YOU THINK HAN SOLO HAS A CHANCE WITH HER?  SHE ... OUR LIGHT

      This story needs to break, and then we aren't in the heart of darkness anymore; it's called "morning" Biblical, and this particular morning is a very special one--because you're here.

      I have a special gift, "pa" is helping me read this words, and you might have noticed that they can be taken to mean different things. They don't really separate, or fly off the page and glow for me; but I know what all the keys are, many are simple, and many come from our IT and "computer-slang" acronyms... which tells you something.

      Many are "elements" and "initials" and the whole thing really is a part of the script,a  sort of key not just to Creation but to this specific story, to this path.  While some are "open to interpretation" (for instance, "in t" everyone really pre-tat; which would be a long ... time ... ago <3) or you could read "ERP" reason "t" and that might have something to do with "Great Plains" and some blue light that connections user interfaces to the word "automagical," FRX forms... Strawberry Fields and "above the fruited plains" ... which might be meaningless to you--but it's an idea that revolves around using user-feedback to interfaces (like the pottery wheel in my dream or in the Dr. Who episode "the Bells of Saint John" linked to down below) to adjust the interface in real time for a larger group; working towards making a number of "best-fit" interfaces that people are both more comfortable with and actually creating as they use them.  Ahhhh... blue light got in here, run away.  Just kidding, this is cyan light.

      I C ONO CL AS M | J ES UI T | HEAVEN IS MORE THAN TECH

      Honestly, we could really make Healden in about 10 minutes now.  Look at that, it's done... ish.

      **\ **

      **\ **

      LETS CALL "THAT DAY" THE DAY YOU SEE ADAM-NEWS ON EVERY TV STATION

      For instance were we not surely "at e" meaning the end of the Revelation of words, "separate" might have been broken between Pa and Ra, which are big keys, in many words; but we are at "e" and that surely does mean the Creator and I are fused.  There's more confirmation of this than simply in the words for "medicine" and say, I don't know, methadone--which could have been broken at "a done" but is very clearly "ad is the one" here and now.  With careful preparation, "adparatio" in Latin, I'd "bet" that all of those keys are I, in this place, in this time.  AD, Pa, Ra, TI, and "o."  Hey, maybe this message is my messiah after all.  

      I am looking at a broken world, I really am--a place that is suffocating itself in silence and whispers that don't make it far enough for anyone to really understand.  Whatever it is, whatever's caused it, I see no solution other than me coming--I see it as a design, and I'm sorry that you don't seem to agree, but you have to see that the "choice" between seeing an obvious truth absolutely everywhere and not seeing it is really no choice at all--what is being hidden from the world is causing this darkness, it is causing the suffocation; it is the problem, hiding me is the problem and it cannot continue.  On a brighter note, I am pretty sure that magic will happen, and you will see that the world will not react quite as badly or shockingly as your worst fears, things might be a little ... tearful for a day or so, for crying out loud, they should be--the message is that you are in Hell and you need to do something, to act, to change that.  Actually trying to do that, trying to discuss what it is that is the "ele ph ant in the room" or the "do n key in the s k** y"  will show us that there was just no way around changing the world because of circumstances of Creation; something that we seem to be ignoring.  We also seem to be ignoring that things are "just fine" today, and even though many of you are well aware that "something is coming" only a few morons are building bunkers.  This is a message of peace, it is a message designed to help us use the new truth and new tools unsealed by religion to make the world a safer happier place, and we can do that .. . rather quickly.  Even quicker if you try to focus on what's wrong here, and how we make it better--rather than "shooting the messenger" dirty glares in the street.  I'm a person too, and believe it or not, I didn't ask for this--and I probably wouldn't have been so happy about it had this experience not isolated me so much from my friends and family, and girls; don't forget girls.

       \ ITS ME?

        

      So in the word "paramount" what is it that you think is the "paramount" take away?  I think the most important thing you can take away from "paramount" is that you didn't see it your whole life, and even when it's pointed out, you don't seem to think it's "news" that Pa and Ra have written a message to you.  What's really not funny, is that despite this message being very clear to see once it's pointed out, it still hasn't made any waves in the newspapers, or online, or in the news--what's paramount is seeing that there is a very sincere problem for civilization, it is an ELE and that ELE is something that is making everyone think that "not seeing something" is OK behavior.  It is not OK, it is not funnyuntil you recognize that something is dreadfully wrong with our society, until you see that ignoring that this message belongs in the news you are not seeing that what you are doing by ignoring it is destroying civilization itself.  Ignorance is the ELE.

      Your alternative, what you are doing, is making the world half blind, and stupider than you can imagine.  I keep on trying to show you what's wrong here, that it's not just a message but pain and suffering and the absolutely imminent and undeniable certain doom of everything if we do not recognize that hiding the fact that we are in virtual reality is the same thing as driving a nail into the wrists of every soul on the planet.

       

      LA U stilkMIGHT DATE ADPARATIO BO'OOPSYETH

      With careful preparation, we are at IO (input/output) in the belly of the book that is a map to salvation. That IO comes well after disclosure, and well after Mars.  You are delaying the inevitable, and in the sickest possible twist, you are stewing in Hell instead of seeing Heaven built--more importantly instead of being the generation that should be the "founders" of that place.   I am sure that disclosure, will ... within a time frame that will most likely be faster than you can imagine, bring us an end to world hunger, to sickness, and doors to Heaven; and I just can't see what you are waiting for?  If it wasn't like this, you've got to see that we would be getting fucked right here and now; I am telling you the map and the plan, it's here to help us make this place better, and to show us how to actually survive in the Universe before kicking us out of the nest, and we are ... what are we thinking about?

      It's really obvious that it's not for my benefit, and it's obvious that it's not for yours either--so at what point will you realize that the behavior, the alarming behavior, that I am seeing from everyone is illogical.  At what point will you see that it is self-defeating, that it is ... well, Hell?  When will you see?  Be yourselves, the world that I grew up in doesn't hide controversy, we relish in it--we don't bury scandals under the rug--we put them on TV.   What's really more important to see is that  we, all of us, none of us... we would not hide "holographic universe" from ourselves and each other, nor would we hide "alien contact" or "the secrets of religion" and yet here we are, all doing that--and I wonder if we see that it's "not us" doing it, but ....  but ... butt  ... what is it again?

      **\ **

         

      HI, I'M A PERSON.  (and apparently a state, a country, and a Nintendo character)

      JUDGING BY THE HIGH FREQUENCY OF PRESS UNSUBSCRIBES FROM

      YESTERDAY'S EMAIL, REPORTER'S DON'T SEEM TO WANT TO HEAR THAT

      FORCING ME TO DELIVER THIS MESSAGE IN ISOLATION FOR NO MONEY

      IS SLAVERY, GO READ ABOUT JOSEPH IN EGYPT, THEN READ THE END.

      IF YOU THINK HIDING THE TRUTH BECAUSE "IDAHO" IS GONNA FLY

      YOU ARE AN IGNORANT BLIND FOOL.  HONESTLY, WAKE UP, THIS IS HELL.

      YOU ARE BLINDED BY SOMETHING, FIGURE IT OUT--I'M EXPLAINING WHAT IT IS

      **\ **

      HERE, EMAIL THEM (please?and tell them to repent by writing a story):

      **\ **

      andy.greene@rollingstone.com

      **gcoy@12news.com\ **

      **nmelosky@mcall.com\ **

      **lynn@ripr.org\ **

      Chris.Piper@wthitv.com

      Is it a cup? a stem?

      WRITTEN, FOR ETERNITY.

      It must be Uranus.   Except, my "an us" is more awesome than you think, I mean my "a we" that would be "so me" for you to see it's really you too.  That's really what this message is about, it is about us seeing that we can do something together that would be rejected if it were done for us, or to us; even if we all really want it inside, without taking part ... we'd dislike it.  We're all like that, nobody wants a stranger to redecorate their house.  We share this house together, and I think we can all see that there are some changes that would make it a better place--from a cold Godless Universe of "chance" ruling to a ... caring and loving place that  cares about what we want and how we want to do it ... do you see?  If I came into your igloo and told you that the ice age was ending and this place was going to be a beautiful beach; except your walls are melting... would you keep that locked up inside?

      Don't worry, I won't get mad at anyone for being angry at their idea of Jesus Christ for not being more like me.  I won't be mad at all. :)

      I've done my best to share what I think will be helpful for the world to think about, as we ... embark on what is really a journey to the final frontier as well as what I know we need to do here in order to accomplish what it is that we would have done maybe a decade ago or maybe a century from now if we didn't know the advice was coming from God and the future--and we didn't know that it is the way to open the doors to Heaven permanently.    These are suggestions, they're really all of our ideas--at least everything I can grasp from things like Star Trek and Dr. Who and ... the Legend of Zelda... they're the kind of thing that we would probably find to be very discussion worthy, were we to all be sure that they are possible--and they are--and we need to see that.  

      There are lots of things that we really do need to think about, this is not a "fast" transition, it's not something happens "overnight" (oh my god, you don't know what that word just said to me) changes that would normally be occurring right now because of science and technology--things like increased longevity and mind uploading... these things are going to become much more quickly accessible, and we need to think about the implications that they will have on our society.   We need to talk about it, in public, in places where these conversations will help us to shape the future of "civilization."  I don't think you understand what it is we are doing, that's different than "before," but I am fairly certain that a "whole planet" has never done this, and the "road" between Earth and Heaven; fusing these ideas together is really nothing more or less than "progress."

          

      FLOWING MILK AND HONEY.. GOLDEN COW, NO JUDAH MACCABEUS; GET IT?

      Progress that has never happened (or we wouldn't be here, and it's obvious).  See our cautions at the Last Supper (about not eating anymore) and at Cain and Abel (about forgetting how to farm) and at the Promised Land of Joshua (about not doing the Adam show, achem, I mean... about thinking that "replicators alone" milk and honey on tap... are good enough in Heaven) and in Noah's Ark... about showing us that the reason that we are here is to see how important biology and evolution and a stable ecosystem are to the survival of life in the Universe; to colonization of the stars, and to ... the evolution of our two party system past donkeys and elephants to something more appropriate for a free and technologically advanced society; as in, not a two-party system.

       

      wild-e :( (love your eyes...) :)

      From "separate" the "e_" that needs to be EE by the way, that key that might let us "see" is "everyone equal" that's what "ee" means. It's in "thirteen" and so on, and to help, I our "t" and r' n.  Victorious Earth, I need pre-crime to survive, what say you?  *Say nothing, and I am twelve. Keep saying no thing and I will be El, even.  *

      *\ *

       Image result for snaglepluss Related image

      Round and round we go... you need pre-crime to evolve, what say you?  Break the story, and we are one day closer to Heaven.  We need pre-crime not to be in Hell, we really do.  Don't you see?  Break the story.

         

      THERE, YOU GOT RID OF A "DO" FOR YOU.

      The days of "divide and conquer" are over, when you are through being a parted sea, or a flock of electric sheep, or a nation of slaves.   I do have an idea of what you expected of me, what you thought I'd be--I probably had similar expectations before I knew ... what I know.  Honestly, from me to you, that guy would have been pretty boring... and bored.

      It's a little funny.. isn't it?

        

      AMHARIL?

      I R L

      --

      | |

      Adam Marshall Dobrin

      about.me/ssiah |

      --

      | |

      Adam Marshall Dobrin

      about.me/ssiah |

      Unless otherwise indicated, this work was written between the Christmas and Easter seasons of 2017 and 2020(A). The content of this page is released to the public under the GNU GPL v2.0 license; additionally any reproduction or derivation of the work must be attributed to the author, Adam Marshall Dobrin along with a link back to this website, fromthemachine dotty org.

      That's a "." not "dotty" ... it's to stop SPAMmers. :/

      This document is "living" and I don't just mean in the Jeffersonian sense. It's more alive in the "Mayflower's and June Doors ..." living Ethereum contract sense and literally just as close to the Depp/C[aster/Paglen (and honorably PK] 'D-hath Transundancesense of the ... new meaning; as it is now published on Rinkeby, in "living contract" form. It is subject to change; without notice anywhere but here--and there--in the original spirit of the GPL 2.0. We are "one step closer to God" ... and do see that in that I mean ... it is a very real fusion of this document and the "spirit of my life" as well as the Spirit's of Kerouac's America and Vonnegut's Martian Mars and my Venutian Hotel ... and my fusion of Guy-A and GAIA; and the Spirit of the Earth .. and of course the God given and signed liberties in the Constitution of the United States of America. It is by and through my hand that this document and our X Commandments link to the Bill or Rights, and this story about an Exodus from slavery that literally begins here, in the post-apocalyptic American hartland. Written ... this day ... April 14, 2020 (hey, is this HADAD DAY?) ... in Margate FL, USA. For "official used-to-v TAX day" tomorrow, I'm going to add the "immultible incarnite pen" ... if added to the living "doc/app"--see is the DAO, the way--will initi8 the special secret "hidden level" .. we've all been looking for.

      Nor do just mean this website or the totality of my written works; nor do I only mean ... this particular derivation of the GPL 2.0+ modifications I continually source ... must be "from this website." I also mean the thing that is built from ... bits and piece of blocks of sand-toys; from Ethereum and from Rust and from our hands and eyes working together ... from this place, this cornerstone of the message that is ... written from brick and mortar words and events and people that have come before this poit of the "sealed W" that is this specific page and this time. It's 3:28; just five minutes--or is it four, too layne.

      This work is not to be redistributed according to the GPL unless all linked media on Youtube and related sites are intact--and historical references to the actual documented history of the art pieces (as I experience/d them) are also available for linking. Wikipedia references must be available for viewing, as well as the exact version of those pages at the time these pieces were written. All references to the Holy Bible must be "linked" (as they are or via ... impromptu in-transit re-linking) to the exact verses and versions of the Bible that I reference. These requirements, as well as the caveat and informational re-introduction to God's DAO above ... should be seen as material modifications to the original GPL2.0 that are retroactively applied to all works distributed under license via this site and all previous e-mails and sites. /s/ wso\ If you wanna talk to me get me on facebook, with PGP via FlowCrypt or adam at from the machine dotty org

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      next, we are off to view at the same time the fork in the road known and prior'd as the hallowed one, the Frost poem and it's "divergence in the wood"

      here we go:

      ** THE HOLY OF HOLIES, WIKIPEDIA CC'd AND BROKE It is imperative that the entire history of wikipedia eiditing be released under the CC license, not just the broken current front page; that I have been unable to get the world "to care about enough" to call it the literal difference between slavery and freedom,"

      ++ [https://holies.org/DEVLANEU.html] This is "Penny Lane" as in asking me if I'm coming or happy; you might as well avll me the forests that are echoing "we are now" or "that will do" ... and I say to the man who sings for the people who sang about the road to bethelehem or was it knocking on heavens door, or just the one about ... the stairway to heaven

      ** https://opensea.io/assets/base/0x32f86e0fc59f339bfd393a526051728657fd0c84/4

      ++ It is that. i AM THAT. Those are first words of Him in Exodus, he who spake through the Bush and Zarathustra. That is what that is about and in the moment, the world is "anokhi" and Hi, that's me/i -- and of course, related; the "nookie."

      we can also link to the next place where we will have a chatGPT log of a conversation available.

  6. fromthemachine.org fromthemachine.org
    1. SON Ye  R  O  C  K    O  F   .   .   .    S   A   G  E   S  ? H  E  A  R    D  E  R  O  R I T  R E A L L Y  D O E S  M E A N   "FREEDOM"   B R E A D   I S   L I F E Tying up loose eadds, in a similar vain to the connection between the Burning Bush and universal voting now etched by-stone, there exists a similar missing Link connecting the phrase "it's not a a gam" to Mary Magdeline to a pattern that shows us that the Holy Trinity and our timelines are narrated by a series of names of video game systems and their manufacturers from "Nintendo" to Genesis and the rock of SEGA.  Through a "kiss" and the falling of a wallthe words bread and read are tied up and twisted with the story of this Revelation and the heart of the word Creation, "be the reason it's A.D."  It's a strong connection between the idea that virtual reality and Heaven are linked by more than simply "technology" but that this message that shows us that these tools for understanding have fallen from the sky in order to help us understand why it is so important, why I call it a moral mandate, that we use this information to follow the map delivered to us in the New Testament and literally end world hunger, and literally heal the sick; because of the change in circumstance revealed to us.  These simple things, these few small details that might seem like nothing, or maybe appear to be "changing everything" they are not difficult things to do, in light of Creation, and few would doubt that once we do see them implementied here... the difference between Heaven and Hell will be ever so clear. A while ago, in a place called Kentucky... this story began with a sort of twisted sci-fi experience that explained a kind of "God machine" that could manipulate time and reality, and in that story, in that very detailed and interesting story that I lived through, this machine was keyed to my DNA, in something like the "Ancient technology" of Stargate SG-1 and Atlantis mythology.  My kind brother Seth made a few appearances in the story, not actually in person but in fairly decent true to life holograms that I saw and spoke to every once in awhile.  He looked a little different, he had long hair; but that's neither here nor there, and he hasn't really had long hair since I was a little boy.  He happens to be a genetic engineer, and I happen to be a computer person (although he's that too, now; just nowhere near as good as me... with computers) so the story talked a little bit about how I would probably not have used DNA as a key, since I'm not a retard, and he probably wouldn't either, because works in that field (cyclone, huracan, tornado).  So then the key we imagined was something ... well, Who cares what the key is, right? o back to the task at hand, not so long ago, in a place called Plantation I was struck by lightning, literally (well not literally) the answer to a question that nobody knew was implanted in my mind, and it all came from asking a single simple question.  I was looking for more chemistry elements in the names of the books of the Holy Bible, after seeing Xenon at the "sort of beginning" of Exodus, where it screams "let there be light" in Linux and chemistry (and I've told you that a hundred times by now).  So it didn't take long to follow the light of that word and read Genesis backwards, and see, at the very beginning of that book, Silicon... in reverse.   So, what about God's DNA, anyway?   What's he really made of?         SIM MON S              WILD ER             ROD DEN BERRY o after seeing Silicon, and connecting that to the numerous attempts I've made to show a message connecting The Matrix to the Fifth Element (as Silicon) describing what it is that God believes we should do with this knowledge--and see that it is narrated as the miracles of Jesus Christ in the New Testament... these names came to me in quick succession, an answer to the question.  I suppose any Gene will do, these three though, have a very important tie to the message that connects Joshua's Promised Land of flowing Milk and Honies to ... a kiss that begins the new day (I hope) ... and a message about exactly how we might go about doing magical things like ending world hunger and healing the sick using technology described ... in Star Trek and Stargate.  A "religion of the Stars" is being born.    That's great... it starts with an earthquake. R.E.M. and a band ... 311.  Oooh, I can see it coming down... The Petty Reckless.  An evening's love starts with a kiss.  Dave Matthews Band.  I wanna rock and roll all night and party every day.  Adam.  I mean Kiss.  Are you starting to see a pattern form?  Birds, snakes, and aeroplanes?  It's that, it's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.   In that song we see clues that more than just the Revelation of Christ is narrated by John on an island called Patmos.  There yet another Trinity, starting with "Pa" and hearting Taylor Momsen's initials... most likely for a reason... and the Revelation ends with a transition that I hope others will agree with me turns "original sin" into something closer to "obviously salvation" when we finally understand the character that is behind the message of da i of Ra... and begin to see the same design in the names of Asmodai and in this Revelation focusing on freedom and truth that really does suggest Taylor can't talk to me in any way other than "letting freedom sing" in this narrative of kismet and fate and free will and ... then we see that narrative continue in the names of bands, just like the 3/11/11 earthquake is narrated in not just R.E.M.'s song but in the name 311.  Just like the 9/11 attack is narrated not just in that same song (released in 1987) and  "Inside Job" (released in 2000) but also in "Fucked up world."   Dear all of you walking dumb and blind, this same quake is narrated in Taylor's Zombie; waiting for the day to shake, all very similar to Cairo and XP, perhaps a "fad" of doublethink in the minds of the authors singing about a clear prophesy in the Bible; this connection between the day, 3/11 though, and the name of a band and the day of an arrest and the verse Matthew that tells you clearly you have now been baptized in water and fire... it shows us the design of a story whose intent and purpose is to ensure that we no longer allow for things like hurricanes and earthquakes and murder and rape to be "simulated" that we build a better system, that doesn't allow for 'force majeure" to take lives for no reason at all.      Not just in band names, but in the angels names too, in all of our names; we see this narration continue.  The Holy Water that is central to the baptism of Christ is etched into Taylor's name, between "sen" and "mom" the key to the two Mary's whose names contain the Spanish for "sea" in a sort of enlightenment hidden in plain sight.  In "Simmons" the key connection between today, this Biblical Monday, and the word "simulation" that ties to Simpsons and simians and keep it simple stupid, and in Simmons the missing "s" of Kismet, finally completing the question.   It's a song and dance that started a long time ago, as you can see from the ancient Hebrew word for "fate" and in more recent years a connection to the ballroom of Atlantis in the Doors 5 to 1 and Dave sang about it in Rapunzel and then Taylor shook a tambourine on the beach only minutes away from me--but never said "hi."  The battle of the bands continues tying some door knocking to a juxtaposition between "Sweet Things" and "Knocking on Heavens door" all the way to a Gossip Girl episode where little J asked a question that I can't be sure she knew was related, she said... "who's that, at the door?" What it really all amounts to, though, is the whole world witnessing the Creation of Adam and Eve from a little girl stuttering out "the the" at the sight of the Grinch himself, and then later not even able to get those words off her lips... about seeing how Creation and modern art are inextricably tied to religion, to heaven, and to freedom.    The bottom line here, hopefully obvious now, is that you can't keep this message "simple" it's a Matrix woven between more points of light than I can count, and many more that I'm sure you will find.  It's a key to seeing how God speaks to me, and to you; and how we are, we really are that voice.  Tay, if you don't do something just because God called it "fate" you are significantly more enslaved than if you do--and you wanted to.  "Now I see that you and me, were never meant, never meant to be..." she sang before I mentioned her, and before she ever saw me... in a song she calls "Nothing Left to Lose" and I see is not really just another word for freedom. We have plenty to lose by not starting the fire, not the least of which is Heaven itself.  Understand what "force majeure" really means to you and I.  Ha, by the way. IN CASE YOU FORGOT YESTERDAY'S MESSAGE   "DADDY, I WANT IT NOW." VERUKA SALT. whose name means "to see (if) you are the Body of Christ" whined, in the story of Will Why Won Ka, about nothing more or less than Heaven on Hearth, than seeing an end to needless torture and pain.   To see if you are the "Salt of the Earth" warming the road to Heaven; honestly to see if you can break through this inane lie of "I don't understand" and realize that breaking this story and talking about what is being presented not just by me and you but by history and God himself is the key to the car that drives us home.  To see how Cupid you really are. STOP NODDING, TURN AROUND AND CALL A REPORTER. The story of Willy Wonka ties directly to the Promised Land of Flowing Milk and Honey to me; by showing us a river of chocolate and a the everlasting God starter, (er is it guardian of B stopper) that opens the doors of perception about exactly what kinds of mistake may have been made in the past in this transition to Heaven that we are well on the way of beginning.  Here, in the Land of Nod, that is also Eden and also the Heart of the Ark we see warnings about "flowing milk and honey" being akin to losing our stable ecosystem, to losing the stuff of life itself, biology and evolution, and if we don't understand--this is probably exactly the mistake that was made and the cause of the story of Cain and Abel.  So here we are talking about genetic engineering and mind uploading and living forever, and hopefully seeing that while all things are possible with God--losing the wisdom of the message of religion is akin to losing life in the Universe and with that any hope of eternal longevity.  With some insight into religion, you can connect the idea that without bees our stable ecosystem might collapse, to the birds and the bees, and a message about stability and having more than one way to pollinate the flowers  and trees and get some.   Janet and Nanna, by the way, both have pretty brown eyes, but that probably comes as no surprise to you. Miss Everything, on the other hand (I hear, does not have brown eyes), leads us to glimpse how this message about the transition of our society might continue on in the New Testament, and suggest that we do need to eat, and have dinner conversation, and that a Last Supper might be a little bit more detrimental to our future than anyone had ever thought, over and over and over again.  To see how religion really does make clear that this is what the message is about, to replace the flowing milk we have a "Golden Cow" that epitomizes nothing less than "not listening to Adam" and we have a place that believes the Hammer of Judah Maccabee should be ... extinct.  You are wrong. Of course the vibrating light here ties this Gene to another musical piece disclosing something... "Wild Thing" I make your heart sing.  You can believe the Guitar Man is here to steal the show and deliver bread for the hungry and for the wise.  Here's some, it's not just Imagine Dragons telling you to listen to the radio but Jefferson Starshiptoo, and Live.   When you wake up, you can hear God "singing" to you on the radio every single day; many of us already do.  He's telling you to listen to me, and I do not understand why you do not.  You don't look very Cupid, if you ask me. WHAT DO YOU THINK YOU ARE, DAN RE Y NO LDS?   I think we all know what the Rod of Jesus Christ is by now.  ​ It is a large glowing testament to freedom and truth, and a statement about blindness and evil that is unmistakable.   To say that seeing it is the gateway to Heaven would be an understatement of it's worth, of the implication that not seeing it is obvious Hell when it is linked to everything from nearly every story of the Holy Bible from Isaac to Isaiah to "behold he is to coming" and if you weren't sure if the Hand of God were in action here--it's very clear that it is; that linking Tricky Dick and Watergate to Seagate ... really delivering crystal clear understanding that the foundation of Heaven is freedom and that you have none today because you refuse to see the truth. It is the doorway to seeing that what has been going on in this place hasn't been designed to hide me, but to hide a prosperous future from you--to hide the truth about our existence and the purpose of Creation--that all told, you are standing at the doorstep of Heaven and stammering your feet, closing your eyes, and saying "you don't want to help anyone." If delivering freedom, truth, and equality  to you does not a den make, well, you can all suck it ... from God, to you. Between Stargate and Star Trek it's pretty easy to see a roadmap to very quickly and easily be able to end world hunger and heal the sick without drastically changing the way our society works, it's about as simple as a microwave, or a new kind of medicine--except it's not so easy to see why it is that you are so reluctant to talk about the truth that makes these things so easy to do.  You see, your lack of regard for anyone anywhere has placed you in a position of weakness, and if you do nothing today, you will not be OK tomorrow. It's pretty easy to see how Roddenberry's name shows that this message comes from God, that he's created this map that starts with an Iron Rod throughout our history proving Creation, whose heart is a Den of Family who care about the truth, and about freedom, and about helping each other--not what you are--you are not that today.  Today you are sick, and I'd like you to look at the mirror he's made for you, and be eshamden (or asham).  Realize, realize... what you are.  What you've become, just as I have... the devil in a sweet, sweet kiss. -Dave J. Matthews .WHSOISKEYAV { border-width: 1px; border-style: dashed; border-color: rgb(15,5,254); padding: 5px; width: 503px; text-align: center; display: inline-block; align: center; p { align: center; } /* THE SCORE IS LOVE FIVE ONE SAFETY ONE FIELD GOAL XIVDAQ: TENNIS OR TINNES? TONNES AND TUPLE(s) */ } <style type="text/css"> code { white-space: pre; } google_ad_client = "ca-pub-9608809622006883"; google_ad_slot = "4355365452"; google_ad_width = 728; google_ad_height = 90; Unless otherwise indicated, this work was written between the Christmas and Easter seasons of 2017 and 2020(A). The content of this page is released to the public under the GNU GPL v2.0 license; additionally any reproduction or derivation of the work must be attributed to the author, Adam Marshall Dobrin along with a link back to this website, fromthemachine dotty org. That's a "." not "dotty" ... it's to stop SPAMmers. :/ This document is "living" and I don't just mean in the Jeffersonian sense. It's more alive in the "Mayflower's and June Doors ..." living Ethereum contract sense [and literally just as close to the Depp/Caster/Paglen (and honorably PK] 'D-hath Transundancesense of the ... new meaning; as it is now published on Rinkeby, in "living contract" form. It is subject to change; without notice anywhere but here--and there--in the original spirit of the GPL 2.0. We are "one step closer to God" ... and do see that in that I mean ... it is a very real fusion of this document and the "spirit of my life" as well as the Spirit's of Kerouac's America and Vonnegut's Martian Mars and my Venutian Hotel ... and *my fusion* of Guy-A and GAIA; and the Spirit of the Earth .. and of course the God given and signed liberties in the Constitution of the United States of America. It is by and through my hand that this document and our X Commandments link to the Bill or Rights, and this story about an Exodus from slavery that literally begins here, in the post-apocalyptic American hartland. Written ... this day ... April 14, 2020 (hey, is this HADAD DAY?) ... in Margate FL, USA. For "official used-to-v TAX day" tomorrow, I'm going to add the "immultible incarnite pen" ... if added to the living "doc/app"--see is the DAO, the way--will initi8 the special secret "hidden level" .. we've all been looking for. Nor do just mean this website or the totality of my written works; nor do I only mean ... this particular derivation of the GPL 2.0+ modifications I continually source ... must be "from this website." I also mean *the thing* that is built from ... bits and piece of blocks of sand-toys; from Ethereum and from Rust and from our hands and eyes working together ... from this place, this cornerstone of the message that is ... written from brick and mortar words and events and people that have come before this poit of the "sealed W" that is this specific page and this time. It's 3:28; just five minutes--or is it four, too layne. This work is not to be redistributed according to the GPL unless all linked media on Youtube and related sites are intact--and historical references to the actual documented history of the art pieces (as I experience/d them) are also available for linking. Wikipedia references must be available for viewing, as well as the exact version of those pages at the time these pieces were written. All references to the Holy Bible must be "linked" (as they are or via ... impromptu in-transit re-linking) to the exact verses and versions of the Bible that I reference. These requirements, as well as the caveat and informational re-introduction to God's DAO above ... should be seen as material modifications to the original GPL2.0 that are retroactively applied to all works distributed under license via this site and all previous e-mails and sites. /s/ wso If you wanna talk to me get me on facebook, with PGP via FlowCrypt or adam at from the machine dotty org -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

      this was written sometime i think around 2016. it's hard to recall the exact date; but if you check in the original gitlog there is one that has an original commit.

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      SONYeInline image 5

      R  O  C  K    O  F   .   .   .    S   A   G  E   S  ?

      **\ **

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      H  E  A  R    D  E  R  O  R

      I T  R E A L L Y  D O E S  M E A N   "FREEDOM"   B R E A D   I S   L I F E

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      Tying up loose eadds, in a similar vain to the connection between the Burning Bush and universal voting now etched by-stone, there exists a similar missing Link connecting the phrase "it's not a a gam" to Mary Magdeline to a pattern that shows us that the Holy Trinity and our timelines are narrated by a series of names of video game systems and their manufacturers from "Nintendo" to Genesis and the rock of SEGA.  Through a "kiss" and the falling of wallthe words bread and read are tied up and twisted with the story of this Revelation and the heart of the word Creation, "be the reason it's A.D."  It's a strong connection between the idea that virtual reality and Heaven are linked by more than simply "technology" but that this message that shows us that these tools for understanding have fallen from the sky in order to help us understand why it is so important, why I call it a moral mandate, that we use this information to follow the map delivered to us in the New Testament and literally end world hungerand literally heal the sick; because of the change in circumstance revealed to us.  These simple things, these few small details that might seem like nothing, or maybe appear to be "changing everything" they are not difficult things to do, in light of Creationand few would doubt that once we do see them implementied here... the difference between Heaven and Hell will be ever so clear.

      Inline image 13

      A while ago, in a place called Kentucky... this story began with a sort of twisted sci-fi experience that explained a kind of "God machine" that could manipulate time and reality, and in that story, in that very detailed and interesting story that I lived through, this machine was keyed to my DNA, in something like the "Ancient technology" of Stargate SG-1 and Atlantis mythology.  My kind brother Seth made a few appearances in the story, not actually in person but in fairly decent true to life holograms that I saw and spoke to every once in awhile.  He looked a little different, he had long hair; but that's neither here nor there, and he hasn't really had long hair since I was a little boy.  He happens to be a genetic engineer, and I happen to be a computer person (although he's that too, now; just nowhere near as good as me... with computers) so the story talked a little bit about how I would probably not have used DNA as a key, since I'm not a retard, and he probably wouldn't either, because works in that field (cyclonehuracan, tornado).  So then the key we imagined was something ... well, Who cares what the key is, right?

      **\ **

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      o back to the task at hand, not so long ago, in a place called Plantation I was struck by lightning, literally (well not literally) the answer to a question that nobody knew was implanted in my mind, and it all came from asking a single simple question.  I was looking for more chemistry elements in the names of the books of the Holy Bible, after seeing Xenon at the "sort of beginning" of Exodus, where it screams "let there be light" in Linux and chemistry (and I've told you that a hundred times by now).  So it didn't take long to follow the light of that word and read Genesis backwards, and see, at the very beginning of that book, Silicon... in reverse.

      *\ *

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      Inline image 2Inline image 3

      Inline image 4 Inline image 5

      So, what about God's DNA, anyway*?  *

      What's he really made of?

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      SIM MON S              WILD ER             ROD DEN BERRY

      o after seeing Silicon, and connecting that to the numerous attempts I've made to show a message connecting The Matrix to the Fifth Element (as Silicon) describing what it is that God believes we should do with this knowledge--and see that it is narrated as the miracles of Jesus Christ in the New Testament... these names came to me in quick succession, an answer to the question.  I suppose any Gene will do, these three though, have a very important tie to the message that connects Joshua's Promised Land of flowing Milk and Honies to ... a kiss that begins the new day (I hope) ... and a message about exactly how we might go about doing magical things like ending world hunger and healing the sick using technology described ... in Star Trek and Stargate.  A "religion of the Stars" is being born.

      Inline image 11 Inline image 17

      That's great... it starts with an earthquake. R.E.M. and a band ... 311.  Oooh, I can see it coming down... The Petty Reckless.  An evening's love starts with a kiss.  Dave Matthews Band.  I wanna rock and roll all night and party every day.  Adam.  I mean Kiss.  Are you starting to see a pattern form?  Birds, snakes, and aeroplanes?  It's that, it's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

      *\ *

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      *\ *

      In that song we see clues that more than just the Revelation of Christ is narrated by John on an island called Patmos.  There yet another Trinity, starting with "Pa" and hearting Taylor Momsen's initials... most likely for a reason... and the Revelation ends with a transition that I hope others will agree with me turns "original sin" into something closer to "obviously salvation" when we finally understand the character that is behind the message of da i of Ra... and begin to see the same design in the names of Asmodai and in this Revelation focusing on freedom and truth that really does suggest Taylor can't talk to me in any way other than "letting freedom sing" in this narrative of kismet and fate and free will and ... then we see that narrative continue in the names of bands, just like the 3/11/11 earthquake is narrated in not just R.E.M.'s song but in the name 311.  Just like the 9/11 attack is narrated not just in that same song (released in 1987) and  "Inside Job" (released in 2000) but also in "Fucked up world."

      Dear all of you walking dumb and blind, this same quake is narrated in Taylor's Zombie; waiting for the day to shake, all very similar to Cairo and XP, perhaps a "fad" of doublethink in the minds of the authors singing about a clear prophesy in the Bible; this connection between the day, 3/11 though, and the name of a band and the day of an arrest and the verse Matthew that tells you clearly you have now been baptized in water and fire... it shows us the design of a story whose intent and purpose is to ensure that we no longer allow for things like hurricanes and earthquakes and murder and rape to be "simulated" that we build a better system, that doesn't allow for 'force majeure" to take lives for no reason at all.

      Inline image 19 Inline image 20 Inline image 21

      Not just in band names, but in the angels names too, in all of our names; we see this narration continue.  The Holy Water that is central to the baptism of Christ is etched into Taylor's name, between "sen" and "mom" the key to the two Mary's whose names contain the Spanish for "sea" in a sort of enlightenment hidden in plain sight.  In "Simmons" the key connection between today, this Biblical Monday, and the word "simulation" that ties to Simpsons and simians and keep it simple stupid*, and in Simmons the missing "s" of Kismet, finally completing the question.***

      ***\


      Inline image 23 Inline image 24*\


      *\ *

      It's a song and dance that started a long time ago, as you can see from the ancient Hebrew word for "fate" and in more recent years a connection to the ballroom of Atlantis in the Doors 5 to 1 and Dave sang about it in Rapunzel and then Taylor shook a tambourine on the beach only minutes away from me--but never said "hi."  The battle of the bands continues tying some door knocking to a juxtaposition between "Sweet Things" and "Knocking on Heavens door" all the way to a Gossip Girl episode where little J asked a question that I can't be sure she knew was related, she said... "who's that, at the door?"

      *\ *

      What it really all amounts to, though, is the whole world witnessing the Creation of Adam and Eve from a little girl stuttering out "the the" at the sight of the Grinch himself, and then later not even able to get those words off her lips... about seeing how Creation and modern art are inextricably tied to religion, to heaven, and to freedom.

      *\ *

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      *\ *

      The bottom line here, hopefully obvious now, is that you can't keep this message "simple" it's a Matrix woven between more points of light than I can count, and many more that I'm sure you will find.  It's a key to seeing how God speaks to me, and to you; and how we are, we really are that voice.  Tay, if you don't do something just because God called it "fate" you are significantly more enslaved than if you do--and you wanted to.  "Now I see that you and me, were never meant, never meant to be..." she sang before I mentioned her, and before she ever saw me... in a song she calls "Nothing Left to Lose" and I see is not really just another word for freedom.

      We have plenty to lose by not starting the fire, not the least of which is Heaven itself.  Understand what "force majeure" really means to you and I.  Ha, by the way.

      Inline image 22

      IN CASE YOU FORGOT YESTERDAY'S MESSAGE

      **\ **

      Inline image 6*\ *

      *\ *

      Inline image 27 Inline image 12

      "DADDY, I WANT IT NOW."

      VERUKA SALT. whose name means "to see (if) you are the Body of Christ" whined, in the story of Will Why Won Ka, about nothing more or less than Heaven on Hearth, than seeing an end to needless torture and pain.   To see if you are the "Salt of the Earth" warming the road to Heaven; honestly to see if you can break through this inane lie of "I don't understand" and realize that breaking this story and talking about what is being presented not just by me and you but by history and God himself is the key to the car that drives us home.  To see how Cupid you really are.

      Inline image 29

      STOP NODDING, TURN AROUND AND CALL A REPORTER.

      The story of Willy Wonka ties directly to the Promised Land of Flowing Milk and Honey to me; by showing us a river of chocolate and a the everlasting God starter, (er is it guardian of B stopper) that opens the doors of perception about exactly what kinds of mistake may have been made in the past in this transition to Heaven that we are well on the way of beginning.  Here, in the Land of Nod, that is also Eden and also the Heart of the Ark we see warnings about "flowing milk and honey" being akin to losing our stable ecosystem, to losing the stuff of life itself, biology and evolution, and if we don't understand--this is probably exactly the mistake that was made and the cause of the story of Cain and Abel.  So here we are talking about genetic engineering and mind uploading and living forever, and hopefully seeing that while all things are possible with God--losing the wisdom of the message of religion is akin to losing life in the Universe and with that any hope of eternal longevity.\ With some insight into religion, you can connect the idea that without bees our stable ecosystem might collapse, to the birds and the bees, and a message about stability and having more than one way to pollinate the flowers  and trees and get some.   Janet and Nanna, by the way, both have pretty brown eyes, but that probably comes as no surprise to you.\ Miss Everything, on the other hand (I hear, does not have brown eyes), leads us to glimpse how this message about the transition of our society might continue on in the New Testament, and suggest that we do need to eat, and have dinner conversation, and that a Last Supper might be a little bit more detrimental to our future than anyone had ever thought, over and over and over again.  To see how religion really does make clear that this is what the message is about, to replace the flowing milk we have a "Golden Cow" that epitomizes nothing less than "not listening to Adam" and we have a place that believes the Hammer of Judah Maccabee should be ... extinct.  You are wrong.

      Inline image 30*\ *

      *\ *

      Of course the vibrating light here ties this Gene to another musical piece disclosing something... "Wild Thing" I make your heart sing.  You can believe the Guitar Man is here to steal the show and deliver bread for the hungry and for the wise.  Here's some, it's not just Imagine Dragons telling you to listen to the radio but Jefferson Starship*too, and Live.  *

      *\ *

      When you wake up, you can hear God "singing" to you on the radio every single day; many of us already do.  He's telling you to listen to me, and I do not understand why you do not.  You don't look very Cupid, if you ask me.**

      ***\


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      Inline image 32

      Inline image 33

      WHAT DO YOU THINK YOU ARE,

      DAN RE Y NO LDS?

      **\ **

      Inline image 14 Inline image 28

      I think we all know what the Rod of Jesus Christ is by now.

      Inline image 35​

      It is a large glowing testament to freedom and truth, and a statement about blindness and evil that is unmistakable.   To say that seeing it is the gateway to Heaven would be an understatement of it's worth, of the implication that not seeing it is obvious Hell when it is linked to everything from nearly every story of the Holy Bible from Isaac to Isaiah to "behold he is to coming" and if you weren't sure if the Hand of God were in action here--it's very clear that it is; that linking Tricky Dick and Watergate to Seagate ... really delivering crystal clear understanding that the foundation of Heaven is freedom and that you have none today because you refuse to see the truth.

      It is the doorway to seeing that what has been going on in this place hasn't been designed to hide me, but to hide a prosperous future from you--to hide the truth about our existence and the purpose of Creation--that all told, you are standing at the doorstep of Heaven and stammering your feet, closing your eyes, and saying "you don't want to help anyone."

      Inline image 36

      If delivering freedom, truth, and equality  to you does not a den make,

      well, you can all suck it

      ... from Godto you.

      **\ **

      Inline image 37

      Between Stargate and Star Trek it's pretty easy to see a roadmap to very quickly and easily be able to end world hunger and heal the sick without drastically changing the way our society works, it's about as simple as a microwave, or a new kind of medicine--except it's not so easy to see why it is that you are so reluctant to talk about the truth that makes these things so easy to do.  You see, your lack of regard for anyone anywhere has placed you in a position of weakness, and if you do nothing today, you will not be OK tomorrow.\ It's pretty easy to see how Roddenberry's name shows that this message comes from God, that he's created this map that starts with an Iron Rod throughout our history proving Creation, whose heart is a Den of Family who care about the truth, and about freedom, and about helping each other--not what you are--you are not that today.  Today you are sick, and I'd like you to look at the mirror he's made for you, and ***be eshamden (or asham). ***

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      Realize, realize... what you are.  What you've become, just as I have... the devil in a sweet, sweet kiss.**

      ***\


      -Dave J. Matthews

      Inline image 1

      Unless otherwise indicated, this work was written between the Christmas and Easter seasons of 2017 and 2020(A). The content of this page is released to the public under the GNU GPL v2.0 license; additionally any reproduction or derivation of the work must be attributed to the author, Adam Marshall Dobrin along with a link back to this website, fromthemachine dotty org.

      That's a "." not "dotty" ... it's to stop SPAMmers. :/

      This document is "living" and I don't just mean in the Jeffersonian sense. It's more alive in the "Mayflower's and June Doors ..." living Ethereum contract sense and literally just as close to the Depp/C[aster/Paglen (and honorably PK] 'D-hath Transundancesense of the ... new meaning; as it is now published on Rinkeby, in "living contract" form. It is subject to change; without notice anywhere but here--and there--in the original spirit of the GPL 2.0. We are "one step closer to God" ... and do see that in that I mean ... it is a very real fusion of this document and the "spirit of my life" as well as the Spirit's of Kerouac's America and Vonnegut's Martian Mars and my Venutian Hotel ... and my fusion of Guy-A and GAIA; and the Spirit of the Earth .. and of course the God given and signed liberties in the Constitution of the United States of America. It is by and through my hand that this document and our X Commandments link to the Bill or Rights, and this story about an Exodus from slavery that literally begins here, in the post-apocalyptic American hartland. Written ... this day ... April 14, 2020 (hey, is this HADAD DAY?) ... in Margate FL, USA. For "official used-to-v TAX day" tomorrow, I'm going to add the "immultible incarnite pen" ... if added to the living "doc/app"--see is the DAO, the way--will initi8 the special secret "hidden level" .. we've all been looking for.

      Nor do just mean this website or the totality of my written works; nor do I only mean ... this particular derivation of the GPL 2.0+ modifications I continually source ... must be "from this website." I also mean the thing that is built from ... bits and piece of blocks of sand-toys; from Ethereum and from Rust and from our hands and eyes working together ... from this place, this cornerstone of the message that is ... written from brick and mortar words and events and people that have come before this poit of the "sealed W" that is this specific page and this time. It's 3:28; just five minutes--or is it four, too layne.

      This work is not to be redistributed according to the GPL unless all linked media on Youtube and related sites are intact--and historical references to the actual documented history of the art pieces (as I experience/d them) are also available for linking. Wikipedia references must be available for viewing, as well as the exact version of those pages at the time these pieces were written. All references to the Holy Bible must be "linked" (as they are or via ... impromptu in-transit re-linking) to the exact verses and versions of the Bible that I reference. These requirements, as well as the caveat and informational re-introduction to God's DAO above ... should be seen as material modifications to the original GPL2.0 that are retroactively applied to all works distributed under license via this site and all previous e-mails and sites. /s/ wso\ If you wanna talk to me get me on facebook, with PGP via FlowCrypt or adam at from the machine dotty org

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      sneak preview

      now linking to the next page ... in the discussion:

      https://fromthemachine.org/2017/08/waiting-for-that-green-light.html

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1:

      Summary:

      This manuscript provides some valuable findings concerning the hippocampal circuitry and the potential role of adult-born granule cells in an interesting long-term social memory retrieval. The behavior experiments and strategy employed to understand how adult-born granule cells contribute to long-term social discrimination memory are interesting.

      We thank the reviewer for the positive evaluation.

      I have a few concerns, however with the strength of the evidence presented for some of the experiments. The data presented and the method described is incomplete in describing the connection between cell types in CA2 and the projections from abGCs. Likewise, I worry about the interpretation of the data in Figures 1 and 2 given the employed methodology. I think that the interpretation should be broadened. This second concern does not impact the interest and significance of the findings.

      In response to this concern, we have removed the data concerning abGC projections to PCP4+ and PV-GFP+ cell bodies from Figure 1 and have focused this analysis on dendrites. We now provide high magnification images of dendrites and expand on the methodology, results, and interpretations in the manuscript. We also broaden the interpretation throughout the manuscript to address the reviewer’s concern.

      Strengths:

      The behavior experiments are beautifully designed and executed. The experimental strategy is interesting.

      We appreciate these positive comments.

      Weaknesses:

      The interpretation of the results may not be justified given the methods and details provided.

      We have addressed this concern by providing more methodological details and broadening our interpretation of the results.

      Reviewer #2:

      Summary:

      Laham et al. investigate how the projection from adult-born granule cells into CA2 affects the retrieval of social memories at various developmental points. They use chemogenetic manipulations and electrophysiological recordings to test how this projection affects hippocampal network properties during behavior. I find the study to be very interesting, the results are important for our understanding of how social memories of different natures (remote or immediate) are encoded and supported by the hippocampal circuitry. I have some points that I added below that I think could help clarify the conclusions:

      We appreciate the positive assessment and have addressed the more specific points below.

      My major concern with the manuscript was that making the transitions between the different experiments for each result section is not very smooth. Maybe they can discuss a bit in a summary conclusion sentence at the end of each result section why the next set of experiments is the most logical step.

      In response, we have added summary conclusion sentences at the end of each result section.

      In line 113, the authors say that "the DG is known to influence hippocampal theta-gamma coupling and SWRs". Another recent study Fernandez-Ruiz et al. 2021, examined how various gamma frequencies in the dentate gyrus modulate hippocampal dynamics.

      We cite this paper in the revised manuscript.

      Having no single cells in the electrophysiological recordings makes it difficult to interpret the ephys part. Perhaps having a discussion on this would help interpret the results. If more SWRs are produced from the CA2 region (perhaps aided by projections from abGC), more CA2 cells that respond to social stimuli (Oliva et al. 2020) would reactivate the memories, therefore making them consolidate faster/stronger. On the other hand, the projections from abGC that the authors see, also target a great deal of PV+ interneurons, which have been shown to pace the SWRs frequency (Stark et al 2014, Gan et al 2017), which further suggests that this projection could be involved in SWRs modulation.

      We discuss these possibilities and cite Gan et al 2017, Schlingloff et al., 2014, and Stark et al., 2014 in the revised manuscript.

      The authors should cite and discuss Shuo et al., 2022 (A hypothalamic novelty signal modulates hippocampal memory).

      We mention Chen et al (A hypothalamic novelty signal modulates hippocampal memory.) in the revised manuscript. “Shuo” is the first name of the first author on this paper, so we believe that this is the same paper to which the reviewer refers.

      I think the authors forgot to refer to Fig 3a-f, maybe around lines 163-168.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out this error. In the revised manuscript, we refer to all figure panels. Since Fig 3 is now broken into two figures (Fig 3 and 4), the panel lettering has changed in the revised manuscript.

      Are the SWRs counted only during interaction time or throughout the whole behavior session for each condition?

      The SWRs are counted throughout the whole behavior session for each condition. This is now stated in the revised manuscript.

      Figure 3t shows a shift in the preferred gamma phase within theta cycles as a result of abGC projections to CA2 ablation with CNO, especially during Mother CNO condition. I think this result is worth mentioning in the text.

      We now mention this finding in the revised manuscript.

      Figure 3u in the legend mention "scale bars = 200um", what does this refer to?

      The scale bar refers to that shown in Figure 3b, which is now indicated in the legend.

      What exactly is calculated as SWR average integral? Is it a cumulative rate? Please clarify.

      The integral measure provides information regarding the average total power of SWR events. It sums z-scored amplitude values from beginning to the end of each SWR envelope, and then takes the average across all summed envelopes. SWR integral has been shown to influence SWR propagation (De Filippo and Schmitz, 2023). This is now described in the text.

      Alexander et al 2017, "CA2 neuronal activity controls hippocampal oscillations and social behavior", examined some of the CA2 effects in the hippocampal network after CNO silencing, and the authors should cite it.

      Alexander et al., 2018, which we believe is the relevant paper, is now cited in the revised manuscript.

      Strengths:

      Behavioral experiments after abGC projections to CA2 are compelling as they show clearly distinct behavioral readout.

      We thank the reviewer for this positive assessment.

      Weaknesses:

      Electrophysiological experiments are difficult to interpret without additional quantifications (single-cell responses during interactions etc.)

      We have addressed this concern by expanding the interpretation of our results.

      Reviewer #3:

      Laham et al. present a manuscript investigating the function of adult-born granule cells (abGCs) projecting to the CA2 region of the hippocampus during social memory. It should be noted that no function for the general DG to CA2 projection has been proposed yet. The authors use targeted ablation, chemogenetic silencing, and in vivo ephys to demonstrate that the abGCs to CA2 projection is necessary for the retrieval of remote social memories such as the memory of one's mother. They also use in vivo ephys to show that abGCs are necessary for differential CA2 network activity, including theta-gamma coupling and sharp wave-ripples, in response to novel versus familiar social stimuli.

      The question investigated is important since the function of DG to CA2 projection remained elusive a decade after its discovery. Overall, the results are interesting but focused on the social memory of the mother, and their description in the manuscript and figures is too cursory. For example, raw interaction times must be shown before their difference. The assumption that mice exhibit social preference between familiar or novel individuals such as mother and non-mother based on social memory formation, consolidation, and retrieval should be better explained throughout the manuscript. Thus, when describing the results, the authors should comment on changes in preference and how this can be interpreted as a change in social memory retrieval. Several critical experimental details such as the total time of presentation to the mother and non-mother stimulus mice are also lacking in the manuscript. The in vivo e-phys results are interesting as well but even more succinct with no proposed mechanism as to how abGCs could regulate SWR and PAC in CA2.

      In response to these comments, we provide raw interaction times in a new Figure (Fig. S1). We also provide more information about the experiments and figures in the revision. We explain the rationale for our behavioral interpretations and discuss proposed mechanisms for how abGCs regulate SWR and PAC.

      The manuscript is well-written with the appropriate references. The choice of the behavioral test is somewhat debatable, however. It is surprising that the authors chose to use a direct presentation test (presentation of the mother and non-mother in alternation) instead of the classical 3-chamber test which is particularly appropriate to investigate social preference. Since the authors focused exclusively on this preference, the 3-chamber test would have been more adequate in my opinion. It would greatly strengthen the results if the authors could repeat a key experiment from their investigation using such a test. In addition, the authors only impaired the mother's memory. An additional experiment showing that disruption of the abGCs to CA2 circuit impairs social memory retrieval would allow us to generalize the findings to social memories in general. As the manuscript stands, the authors can only conclude the importance of this circuit for the memory of the mother. Developmental memory implies the memory of familiar kin as well.

      We selected the direct social interaction test because it allows for more naturalistic social behaviors than measuring investigation times toward social stimuli located inside wire mesh containers. We also decided to focus our studies on the retrieval of mother memories because these are likely the first social memories to be formed. We emphasize that our results cannot be generalized to memories of other social stimuli but given studies on recent social memory formation and retrieval in adults that manipulate abGCs and CA2 separately, we feel that it is likely that this circuit is involved in these functions as well. However, we specify throughout the manuscript that our experiments can only tell us about mother memories. We have also changed the title to reflect this.

      The in vivo ephys section (Figure 3) is interesting but even more minimalistic and it is unclear how abGCs projection to CA2 can contribute to SWR and theta-gamma PAC. In Figure 1, the authors suggest that abGCs project preferentially to PV+ neurons in CA2. At a minimum, the authors should discuss how the abGCs to PV+ neurons to CA2 pyramidal neurons circuit can facilitate SWR and theta-gamma PAC.

      We have divided Figure 3 into two figures (Figures 3 and 4) and revised the electrophysiology section of the results section. In the revised paper, we now discuss how abGC projections to PV+ interneurons may facilitate SWR and PAC.

      Finally, proposing a function for 4-6-week-old abGCs projecting to CA2 begs two questions: What are abGCs doing once they mature further, and more generally, what is the function of the DG to CA2 projection? It would be interesting for the authors to comment on these questions in the discussion.

      In response to these comments, we discuss possible answers to these interesting questions.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1:

      Specifically, in Figure 1, for the analysis of the synapses formed between abGCs and CA2 PNS (as identified by PCP4 expression) and CA2 PV+ cells (as identified by cre-dependent AAV-mCherry expression) in PV-cre line. In panels c and d the soma of a CA2 PN cell is shown, as well as the soma of a PV cell is shown. Why was the soma analyzed? What relevance is there for this? It is my understanding that synapses form on dendrites- this would be much more relevant to show, in my opinion. Also, the methods for panels e and f state that the 3R-Tau+ intensity was analyzed only in stratum lucidum. (There was a normalization for the overall 3R-Tau intensity in SL of CA2 that was obtained by dividing the 3R-Tau intensity of corpus callosum). I don't understand then how a comparison of 3RTau intensity could have been done for CA2 PN soma. There are no CA2 PN soma in stratum lucidum. (This is fairly clearly shown in Figure 1aiii, with the PCP4 staining showing the soma in the somatic layer... not in stratum lucidum). What is being analyzed here?

      If the 3R-Tau intensity for dendrites is higher for PV cell dendrites, an example image of dendrites would be very helpful. How was the CA2 PV cell dendrite delimited from the CA2 PN dendrites at 40x magnification for the 3R-Tau intensity? Why were pre-synaptic puncta not examined? Is it possible to determine the post-synaptic target with these methods? This result could be particularly interesting, but I find it very difficult to understand the quantification or the justification behind it. To truly know if a cell is getting a connection, the best method would be to perform whole-cell patch clamp recordings of the post-synpatic target cells and use optogenetics of the abGCs. I understand that perhaps this may be beyond the scope of the paper, but it is a severe limitation for these results.

      We have eliminated the cell body measures from Figure 1 and focus instead on the dendrite measures, which we agree are more relevant. We now provide high magnification example images of pyramidal cell (PCP4+) and PV+ interneuron (GFP+) dendrites in Figure 1. We thank the reviewer for pointing out the error about the stratum lucidum as some of the dendrites analyzed are located in the pyramidal cell layer. In addition, neither PCP4 nor GFP label the full extent of dendrites emanating from CA2 pyramidal cells or PV+ interneurons respectively. We mention this in the revised manuscript because abGC projections to more distal dendrites might show a different pattern than that which was observed for proximal dendrites. We also provide more details about how the dendrites were delimited for the analysis, and mention that these results cannot definitively inform us about whether functional synaptic connections have been formed.

      Canulation over CA2 is potentially not specific to CA2 terminals. It would be optimal if the authors had some histology demonstrating specific cannula placement, as these surgeries are really tough to get perfectly centered over CA2. Even if it is perfectly centered, how much would the CNO diffuse into CA3? I think that given the methodology, the authors really need to consider that the behavioral results are not only a result of blocking abGC terminals in CA2 alone. Would it really change much if the abGC terminals are also silenced in CA3a/b as well? The McHugh lab has shown that area CA3 is also playing a role in social memory (Chiang, M.-C., Huang, A. J. Y., Wintzer, M. E., Ohshima, T. & McHugh, T. J. A role for CA3 in social recognition memory. Behav Brain Res 354, 2018). It may be that both areas CA2 and CA3 are important for the phenomenon being demonstrated in Figure 2. I think the impact of the study is just as interesting, as this examination of early social memories is very interesting and nicely done. In fact, areas CA2 and CA3 may be acting together (please see Stöber, T. M., Lehr, A. B., Hafting, T., Kumar, A. & Fyhn, M. Selective neuromodulation and mutual inhibition within the CA3-CA2 system can prioritize sequences for replay. Hippocampus 30, 1228-1238, 2020).

      We agree that it is possible that CNO infusions targeted at the CA2 would also influence CA3a/b and have revised the paper to include this possible interpretation. We also cite the suggested paper on CA3 involvement in social memory (Chiang et al., 2018) and the paper on CA2-CA3 interactions (Stöber et al, 2020).

      Figure 3 is packed with information, but not communicated in a reasonable way. Much more information and a description of the experimental protocol need to be presented. Furthermore, why are there no example traces for the SWRs recorded? There should be more analysis than just a difference score and frequency. How is j, k, and l analyzed and interpreted? Why no example traces there? Also, the n's seem way too small for Figure 3mr. Are there only 32 or three animals used for some of these conditions? This is insufficient in my opinion to conclude much for a 5-minute interaction.

      In response to this concern, we have divided Figure 3 into 2 figures – Figure 3 and Figure 4. In Figure 3, we provide example traces for SWRs, with additional SWR data presented in Figures S3 and S4, including data to complement the difference score data in Figure 3. In Figure 4, we include traces of phase amplitude coupling. We also provide more information in the methods about how the phase amplitude coupling data were analyzed. For Figure 4, we used methods described by Tort et al., 2010 to produce a modulation index, which is a measure of the intensity of coupling between theta phase and gamma amplitude. This method additionally allows for visualization of how gamma amplitude is modified across individual theta phase cycles. Regarding the question about n sizes in the 10-12 week abGC group (Fig. 3), the numbers are lower than in the 4-6 week abGC group because by 6 weeks after the first set of recordings, the electrodes in some of the mice were no longer usable. The n sizes for this specific study are 4-5 per group for Nestin-cre mice; 7-8 for Nestin-cre:Gi. This is now clarified in the figure legend.

      The discussion section of this paper does not put these results into a broader context with the field. There are other studies examining abGCs and their roles in novelty and memory formation (the work from Juna Song's lab, for example). These should be properly mentioned and discussed.

      In response, we have added discussion on the roles of abGCs in nonsocial novelty and memory formation and have cited papers from the Song lab.

      In the figure legend for Figure 2, there is no specific explanation for panel h. Perhaps the label is missing in the legend.

      We thank the reviewer for noting this error and now include a description in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #2:

      Adding more quantifications (single cells, isolating data during interactions versus noninteraction times) would help understand the results better. In the lack of this, adding a more clear rationale (even if only through the presentation of hypotheses) in between the transitions of the different results sections would make the study easier to read.

      In response to this comment, we have added transition sentences between results sections to clarify the rationale and make the manuscript easier to understand.

      Reviewer #3:

      Line 110: "Hippocampal phase-amplitude coupling (PAC) and generation of sharp waveripples (SWRs) have been linked to novel experience, memory consolidation, and retrieval (Colgin, 2015; Fernandez Ruiz et al., 2019; Meier et al., 2020; Joo and Frank, 2018; Vivekananda et al., 2021). The DG is known to influence hippocampal theta-gamma coupling and SWRs (Bott et al, 2016; Meier et al., 2020), yet no studies have examined the influence of abGCs on these oscillatory patterns." This information comes too early in the result section and is somewhat confusing.

      In response to this comment, we have moved this information and provided a better description.

      Line 118: "we found that mice with normal levels of abGCs can discriminate between their own mother and a novel mother." Be more descriptive of the results (present the raw interaction times with the statistical test to compare them), this is the conclusion.

      In response to this comment, we provide the raw interaction times in a new Figure (Fig. S1) and describe the results in more detail.

      Line 121: "These effects were not due to changes in physical activity". Be more specific. Did you subject the mice to a specific test? If not, how did you calculate locomotion? The data presented in the supplementary figure 1a only states the % locomotion.

      Locomotion was manually scored whenever an animal moved in the testing apparatus. Speed was not recorded. Total locomotion was divided by trial duration to create a % locomotion measure. We have added these details to the methods.

      Line 124: "Coinciding with the recovery of adult neurogenesis, GFAP-TK animals regained the ability to discriminate between their mother and a novel mother". Explain how the difference in interaction time can be interpreted as the ability to discriminate. You could also compute the discrimination index used by several other laboratories (difference of interaction normalized by the total interaction time).

      In response to this comment, we describe how the difference in interaction time can be interpreted as the ability to discriminate between novel and familiar mice.

      Line 133: "Targeted CNO infusion in Nestin-Cre:Gi mice enabled the inhibition of GiDREADD+ abGC axon terminals present in CA2." Provide data or references to support this claim. Injection of a dye of comparable size to CNO would help. Otherwise, mention that nearby CA3a could be affected as well.

      We cannot rule out that nearby CA3a was affected by our cannula infusions of CNO into CA2. Furthermore, since dyes likely diffuse at different rates than CNO, we believe that a dye injection would not eliminate this concern completely. Therefore, we have revised the paper to acknowledge the likelihood that the CNO infusion affected parts of CA3 in addition to CA2. We also changed the title to focus more on the CA2 electrophysiological recordings, which we know were obtained only from the CA2.

      Line 150: "When reintroduced to the now familiar adult mouse 6 hours later, after the effects of CNO had largely worn off". Provide data or references supporting this claim.

      In response, we cite articles that show behavioral effects of CNO DREADD activation are returned to baseline 6 hrs later.

      Line 165: "We found that SWR production is increased during social interaction, with more SWRs produced during novel mouse investigation, presumably during encoding social memories, than during familiar mouse investigation, presumably during retrieval of developmental social memories". How does this compare to the results in Oliva et al, Nature 2021?

      The Oliva et al 2021 paper recorded CA2 SWRs during home cage and during post-social stimulus exposure periods of sleep. The timing of the study does not coincide with the measures we made, but we cite the paper.

      Line 168: "Inhibition of abGCs in the presence of a social stimulus". How does silencing abGC impact CA2 pyramidal neurons' firing rate?

      The direct answer to this question is unknown because we did not measure single units, but based on studies done in the CA3, it is likely that firing rate in CA2 would increase.

      Line 203: "abGCs possess a time-sensitive ability to support retrieval of developmental social memories." Can you speculate on the function of the cells later on?

      In the revised paper, we speculate about the function of abGCs after they mature and no longer support retrieval of developmental social memories.

      Line 229: "GFAP-TK mice were group housed by genotype". Why not housed them with CD1 littermates?

      We housed these mice according to genotype to avoid having mice with different levels of abGCs (GFAP-TK + VGCV and CD1 + VGCV) living together in social groups. We did this to avoid potential differences that might emerge in social behavior.

      Line 237: "Adult TK, Nestin-cre, and Nestin-cre:Gi offspring underwent a social interaction test in which they directly interacted with the mother". Specify how long was the social interaction time.

      In the revised manuscript, we specify that mice interacted with each social stimulus for 5 minutes.

      Line 240: "After a 1-hour delay spent in the home cage". Were the mice single-housed or with their littermates during this delay?

      In the revised manuscript, we indicate that mice were put back into the home cage with their cagemates during the 1 hr delay period.

      Line 241: "The order of stimulus exposure was counterbalanced in all tests." Can you show some data to confirm that the order of presentation did not impair the interaction? Have you considered using your own version of the classical 3-chamber test in order to assess directly the preference for one or the other female mouse?

      Our data suggest that the order of testing is not responsible for the observed results. Across all experimental groups without an abGC manipulation (i.e., all direct social interaction assays excluding VGCV+ GFAP-TK trials and CNO+ Nestin-cre:Gi trials), ~84.4% of animals demonstrate a social preference for the novel mother over the mother (CD1 + GFAP-TK VGCV- cohort: 28/33; CD1 VGCV+ cohort: 17/17; CD1 and TK recovery cohort: 24/31; Nestin-cre and Nestin-cre:GI 4-6-week-old abGC cohort: 77/95; 10-12-week-old abGC cohort: 49/55; Total = 195/231 mice with an investigation preference for the novel mother). If stimulus presentation order were to bias social investigation preference toward the first stimulus presented, we would expect the percentage of animals demonstrating a social preference for each stimulus to be around 50%, as roughly half the animals were first exposed to the mother with the other half first exposed to the novel mother. The social novelty preference percentage reported above is comparable to percentages we observe in our lab's novel to familiar social interaction experiments, in which all animals are first exposed to a novel conspecific. We have yet to conduct experiments testing adults using the modified 3-chamber assay described in Laham et al., 2021.

      Statistics: The statistical tests used throughout the paper are appropriate but their description is too cursory. Please provide F values and specify the name of the tests used in the figure legends before giving the exact p values.

    1. Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors established a new virtual reality place preference task. On the task, rats, which were body-restrained on top of a moveable Styrofoam ball and could move through a circular virtual environment by moving the Styrofoam ball, learned to navigate reliably to a high-reward location over a low-reward location, using allocentric visual cues arranged around the virtual environment.

      The authors also showed that functional inhibition by bilateral microinfusion of the GABA-A receptor agonist muscimol, which targeted the dorsal or intermediate hippocampus, disrupted task performance. The impact of functional inhibition targeting the intermediate hippocampus was more pronounced than that of functional inhibition targeting the dorsal hippocampus.

      Moreover, the authors demonstrated that the same manipulations did not significantly disrupt rats' performance on a virtual reality task that required them to navigate to a spherical landmark to obtain reward, although there were numerical impairments in the main performance measure and the absence of statistically significant impairments may partly reflect a small sample size (see comments below).

      Overall, the study established a new virtual-reality place preference task for rats and established that performance on this task requires the dorsal to intermediate hippocampus. They also established that task performance is more sensitive to the same muscimol infusion (presumably - doses and volumes used were not clearly defined in the manuscript, see comments below) when the infusion was applied to the intermediate hippocampus, compared to the dorsal hippocampus, although this does not offer strong support for the authors claim that dorsal hippocampus is responsible for accurate spatial navigation and intermediate hippocampus for place-value associations (see comments below).

      Strengths:

      (1) The authors established a new place preference task for body-restrained rats in a virtual environment and, using temporary pharmacological inhibition by intra-cerebral microinfusion of the GABA-A receptor agonist muscimol, showed that task performance requires dorsal to intermediate hippocampus.

      (2) These findings extend our knowledge about place learning tasks that require dorsal to intermediate hippocampus and add to previous evidence that, for some place memory tasks, the intermediate hippocampus may be more important than other parts of the hippocampus, including the dorsal hippocampus, for goal-directed navigation based on allocentric place memory.

      (3) The hippocampus-dependent task may be useful for future recording studies examining how hippocampal neurons support behavioral performance based on place information.

      Weaknesses:<br /> (1) The new findings do not strongly support the authors' suggestion that the dorsal hippocampus is responsible for accurate spatial navigation and the intermediate hippocampus for place-value associations.

      The authors base this claim on the differential effects of the dorsal and intermediate hippocampal muscimol infusions on different performance measures. More specifically, dorsal hippocampal muscimol infusion significantly increased perimeter crossings and perimeter crossing deviations, whereas dorsal infusion did not significantly change other measures of task performance, including departure direction and visits to the high-value location. However, these statistical outcomes offer only limited evidence that dorsal hippocampal infusion specifically affected the perimeter crossing, without affecting the other measures. Numerically the pattern of infusion effects is quite similar across these various measures: intermediate hippocampal infusions markedly impaired these performance measures compared to vehicle infusions, and the values of these measures after dorsal hippocampal muscimol infusion were between the values in the intermediate hippocampal muscimol and the vehicle condition (Figures 5-7). Moreover, I am not so sure that the perimeter crossing measures really reflect distinct aspects of navigational performance compared to departure direction and hit rate, and, even if they did, which aspects this would be. For example, in line 316, the authors suggest that 'departure direction and PCD [perimeter crossing deviation] [are] indices of the effectiveness and accuracy of navigation, respectively'. However, what do the authors mean by 'effectiveness' and 'accuracy'? Accuracy typically refers to whether or not the navigation is 'correct', i.e. how much it deviates from the goal location, which would be indexed by all performance measures.

      So, overall, I would recommend toning down the claim that the findings suggest that the dorsal hippocampus is responsible for accurate spatial navigation and the intermediate hippocampus for place-value associations.

      (2) The claim that the different effects of intermediate and dorsal hippocampal muscimol infusions reflect different functions of intermediate and dorsal hippocampus rests on the assumption that both manipulations inhibit similar volumes of hippocampal tissue to a similar extent, but at different levels along the dorso-ventral axis of the hippocampus. However, this is not a foregone conclusion (e.g., drug spread may differ depending on the infusion site or drug effects may differ due to differential expression of GABA-A receptors in the dorsal and intermediate hippocampus), and the authors do not provide direct evidence for this assumption. Therefore, a possible alternative account of the weaker effects of dorsal compared to intermediate hippocampal muscimol infusions on place-preference performance is that the dorsal infusions affect less hippocampal volume or less markedly inhibit neurons within the affected volume than the intermediate infusions. I would recommend that the authors briefly consider this issue in the discussion. Moreover, from the Methods, it is not clear which infusion volume and muscimol concentration were used for the different infusions (see below, 4.a.), and this must be clarified.

      (3) It is good that the authors included a comparison/control study using a spherical beacon-guided navigation task, to examine the specific psychological mechanisms disrupted by the hippocampal manipulations. However, as outlined below (4.b.), the sample size for the comparison study was lower than for the main study, and the data in Figure 8 suggest that the comparison task may be affected by the hippocampal manipulations similarly to the place-preference task, albeit less markedly. This would raise the question as to which mechanisms that are common to the two tasks may be affected by hippocampal functional inhibition, which should be considered in the discussion.

      (4) Several important methodological details require clarification:<br /> a. Drug infusions (from line 673):<br /> - '0.3 to 0.5 μl of either phosphate-buffered saline (PBS) or muscimol (MUS) was infused into each hemisphere'; the authors need to clarify when which infusion volume was used and why different infusion volumes were used.<br /> - I could not find the concentration of the muscimol solution that was used. The authors must clarify this and also should include a justification of the doses used, e.g. based on previous studies.<br /> - Please also clarify if the injectors and dummies were flush with the guides or by which distance they protruded from the guides.<br /> b. Sample sizes: The authors should include sample size justifications, e.g. based on considerations of statistical power, previous studies, practical considerations, or a combination of these factors. Importantly, the smaller sample size in the control study using the spherical beacon-guided navigation task (n=5 rats) limits comparability with the main study using the place-preference task (n=8). Numerically, the findings on the control task (Figure 8) look quite similar to the findings on the place-preference task, with intermediate hippocampal muscimol infusions causing the most pronounced impairment and dorsal hippocampal muscimol infusions causing a weaker impairment. These effects may have reached statistical significance if the same sample size had been used in the place-preference study.<br /> c. Statistical analyses: Why were the data of the intermediate and dorsal hippocampal PBS infusion conditions averaged for some of the analyses (Figure 5; Figure 6B and C; Figure 7B and C; Figure 8B) but not for others (Figure 6A and Figure 7A)?

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment:

      This study presents a valuable finding on the possible use of vilazodone in the management of thrombocytopenia through regulating 5-HT1A receptor signaling. The evidence supporting the claims of the authors is solid, with the combined use of computational methods and biochemical assays. The work will be of broad interest to scientists working in the field of thrombocytopenia.

      Public Review:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This is well-performed research with solid results and thorough controls. The authors did a good job of finding the relationship between the 5-HT1A receptor and megakaryocytopoiesis, which demonstrated the potential of vilazodone in the management of thrombocytopenia. The paper emphasizes the regulatory mechanism of 5-HT1A receptor signaling on hematopoietic lineages, which could further advance the field of thrombocytopenia for therapeutic purposes.

      Strengths:

      This is comprehensive and detailed research using multiple methods and model systems to determine the pharmacological effects and molecular mechanisms of vilazodone. The authors conducted in vitro experiments using HEL and Meg-01 cells and in vivo experiments using Zebrafish and Kunming-irradiated mice. The experiments and bioinformatics analysis have been performed with a high degree of technical proficiency. The authors demonstrated how vilazodone binds to 5-HTR1A and regulates the SRC/MAPK pathway, which is inhibited by particular 5-HTR1A inhibitors. The authors determined this to be the mechanistic underpinning for the effects of vilazodone in promoting megakaryocyte differentiation and thrombopoiesis.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Which database are the drug test sets and training sets for the creation of drug screening models obtained from? What criteria are used to grade the results?

      Response: Thank you for your thoughtful comment. The database is built by our laboratory. Firstly, we collected 39 small molecule compounds that can promote MK differentiation or platelet formation and 691 small molecule compounds that have no obvious effect on MK differentiation or platelet formation to buiid the datbase. Then, the data of the remaining 713 types of small molecule compounds were utilized as the Training set, and the Molecular Descriptors of 2 types of active and 15 types of inactive small molecule compounds were randomly picked as the Validation set. With regard to the activity evaluation criteria, the prediction score for each molecule was between 0 and 1, and the model decision was made with a threshold of 0.5. The molecule with a score above the 0.5 threshold was identified as a megakaryopoiesis inducer (1).

      Reference:

      (1) Mo Q, Zhang T, Wu J, et al. Identification of thrombopoiesis inducer based on a hybrid deep neural network model. Thromb Res. 2023;226:36-50. doi:10.1016/j.thromres.2023.04.011

      (2) What is the base of each group in Figure 3b for the survival screening of zebrafish? The positivity rate of GFP-labeled platelets is too low, as indicated by the quantity of eGFP+ cells. What gating technique was used in Figure 3e?

      Response: We are deeply grateful for the insightful feedback you have provided regarding Figure 3 and the assessment of zebrafish model. We used 50 zebrafish embryos per group to evaluate VLZ toxicity, and we think this is a suitable and fair baseline. Our gating procedure is clearly depicted in the resulting diagram. Since our goal was to evaluate the fluorescence intensity quantitatively, we isolated the entire zebrafish cell. Since the amount of eGFP+ in various zebrafish tissues found in other literature is likewise quite low and we are unsure of the typical eGFP+ threshold for zebrafish (1, 2), we think this finding should be fair given that each group's activities in the experiment were conducted in parallel.

      Reference:

      (1) Yang L, Wu L, Meng P, et al. Generation of a thrombopoietin-deficient thrombocytopenia model in zebrafish. J Thromb Haemost. 2022; 20(8): 1900-1909. doi:10.1111/jth.15772

      (2) Fallatah W, De Silva IW, Verbeck GF, Jagadeeswaran P. Generation of transgenic zebrafish with 2 populations of RFP- and GFP-labeled thrombocytes: analysis of their lipids. Blood Adv. 2019;3(9):1406-1415. doi:10.1182/bloodadvances.2018023960

      (3) In Figure 4C, the MPV values of each group of mice did not show significant downregulation or upregulation. The possible reasons for this should be explained.

      Response: Thank you for your thoughtful comment. Megakaryocytes build pseudopodia, which form extensions that release proplatelets into the bone marrow sinusoids. Proplatelets convert into barbell-shaped proplatelets to form platelets in an integrin αIIbβIII mediated process (1-2). Platelet size is established by microtubule and actin-myosin-sceptrin cortical forces which determine platelet size during the vascular formation of barbell proplatelets (3). Conversion is regulated by the diameter and thickness of the peripheral microtubule coil. Proplatelets can also be formed from proplatelets in the circulation (4). Megakaryocyte ploidy correlates with platelet volume following a direct nonlinear relationship to mean platelet volumes (5). Usually there is an equilibrium between platelet generation and clearance from the circulation (normal turnover) controlled by thrombopoietin. When healthy humans receive thrombopoietin, their platelet size decreases (6). Proplatelet formation is dynamic and influenced by platelet turnover (7) which increases upon increased platelet consumption and/or sequestration. In our study, the MPV values of each group of mice did not show significant downregulation or upregulation, from our point of view, there are several possible reasons for these results.

      (1) Mice in a radiation-damaged state may result in a decrease in platelet count, but at the same time stimulate the bone marrow to release young and larger platelets, thus keeping the MPV relatively stable.

      (2) After radiation injury, bone marrow cells were suppressed, resulting in a decrease in the number of platelets produced, but MPV remained unchanged, possibly because the direct effects of radiation on the bone marrow caused thrombocytopenia, but not necessarily the average platelet size.

      Reference:

      (1) Thon JN, Italiano JE. Platelet formation. Semin Hematol. 2010(3):220-226. doi: 10.1053/j.seminhematol.2010.03.005.

      (2) Larson MK, Watson SP. Regulation of proplatelet formation and platelet release by integrin alpha IIb beta3. Blood. 2006(5):1509-1514. doi: 10.1182/blood-2005-11-011957.

      (3) Thon JN, Macleod H, Begonja AJ, et al., Microtubule and cortical forces determine platelet size during vascular platelet production. Nat. Commun. 2012(3):852. doi: 10.1038/ncomms1838.

      (4) Machlus KR, Thon JN, Italiano JE Jr. Interpreting the developmental dance of the megakaryocyte: a review of the cellular and molecular processes mediating platelet formation. Br. J. Haematol. 2014(2):227-36. doi: 10.1111/bjh.12758.

      (5) Bessman JD. The relation of megakaryocyte ploidy to platelet volume. Am. J. Hematol. 1984(2):161-170. doi: 10.1002/ajh.2830160208.

      (6) Harker LA, Roskos LK, Marzec UM, et al., Effects of megakaryocyte growth and development factor on platelet production, platelet life span, and platelet function in healthy human volunteers. Blood. 2000(8):2514-2522. doi: 10.1182/blood.V95.8.2514.

      (7) Kowata S, Isogai S, Murai K, et al., Platelet demand modulates the type of intravascular protrusion of megakaryocytes in bone marrow. Thromb. Haemost. 2014(4):743-756. doi: 10.1160/TH14-02-0123.

      (4) The PPI diagram and the KEGG diagram in Figure 6 both provide a possible mechanism pathway for the anti-thrombocytopenia effect of vilazodone. How can the authors analyze the differences in their results?

      Response: We are appreciated your valuable comments. PPI (Protein-Protein Interaction) refers to the interaction between proteins. Inside cells, proteins interact with each other to perform various biological functions, influencing cell signaling, metabolic pathways, cell cycle, and more. KEGG (Kyoto Encyclopedia of Genes and Genomes) is a database that integrates information on genomes, chemicals, and biological systems. In pharmacoinformatic, KEGG pathways are often used to understand the molecular mechanisms of specific diseases or biological processes. KEGG contains the interrelationships between genes, proteins, and metabolites, helping to reveal key nodes in biological processes. PPI information can be integrated with data from KEGG pathways, such as metabolic and signaling pathways, to gain a more comprehensive understanding of the role of protein-protein interactions in cellular processes and biological functions. For example, by analyzing nodes in the PPI network, proteins associated with a specific disease can be identified, and further examination of these proteins' locations in KEGG pathways can reveal molecular mechanisms underlying the onset and development of the disease. However, this method also has some limitations:

      Uncertainty (1): The construction of protein-protein interaction networks and drug interaction networks involves many assumptions and speculations. The edges of these networks may be based on experimental data but can also rely on bioinformatics predictions. Therefore, the accuracy of predictions is limited by the quality and reliability of the data used during network construction.

      Insufficient data (2): Despite the availability of a large amount of bioinformatics data for network construction, interactions between some proteins and drugs may still lack sufficient experimental data. This data insufficiency can result in inaccuracies in network predictions.

      Dynamics and temporal-spatial changes (3): The dynamics and temporal-spatial changes in biological systems are crucial for drug effects. Pharmacoinformatic may struggle to capture these changes as it often relies on static network representations, overlooking the temporal and dynamic nature of biological systems.

      Reference:

      (1) Fernando PC, Mabee PM, Zeng E. Integration of anatomy ontology data with protein-protein interaction networks improves the candidate gene prediction accuracy for anatomical entities. BMC Bioinformatics. 2020(1):442. doi: 10.1186/s12859-020-03773-2.

      (2) Zhang S, Zhao H, Ng MK. Functional module analysis for gene coexpression networks with network integration. IEEE/ACM Trans. Comput. Biol. Bioinform. 2015(5):1146-1160. doi: 10.1109/TCBB.2015.2396073.

      (3) Cinaglia P, Cannataro M. A method based on temporal embedding for the pairwise alignment of dynamic networks. Entropy (Basel). 2023(4):665. doi: 10.3390/e25040665.

      (5)-HTR1A protein expression is measured only in the Meg-01 cells assay. Similar quantitation through western blot is not shown in other cell models.

      Response: Your insightful criticism and recommendation to use different cell models in order to obtain a more accurate depiction of 5-HTR1A protein expression are greatly appreciated. We completely concur that using this strategy would greatly increase the validity of our research. However, establishing a primary megakaryocyte model requires specialized expertise and technical resources, which unfortunately are not readily available to us within the given timeframe. Nevertheless, we acknowledge the limitations of Meg-01 cells, which may exhibit distinct properties compared to true megakaryocytes. To mitigate this concern, we have ensured robust experimental design and rigorous data analysis to interpret our findings within the context of these model cell lines. We believe our results still provide valuable insights into megakaryocyte differentiation and address an important biological question.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors tried to understand the mechanism of how a drug candidate, VLZ, works on a receptor, 5-HTR1A, by activating the SRC/MAPK pathway to promote the formation of platelets.

      Strengths:

      The authors used both computational and experimental methods. This definitely saves time and funds to find a useful drug candidate and its therapeutic marker in the subfield of platelets reduction in cancer patients. The authors achieved the aim of explaining the mechanism of VLZ in improving thrombocytopenia by using two cell lines and two animal models.

      Weaknesses:

      Only two cell lines, HEL and Meg-01 cells, were evaluated in this study. However, using more cell lines is really depending on the workflow and the grant situations of the current research team.

      Response: We deeply appreciate your insightful feedback and valuable suggestions regarding the use of more suitable models for studying the role of VLZ in megakaryocyte differentiation and platelet production. We fully agree that CD34+ hematopoietic stem/progenitor cells or primary megakaryocytes would provide a more accurate representation of in vitro megakaryopoiesis compared to HEL and Meg-01 cells, which possess limited potential for this process. We acknowledge that our current study did not include experiments with these preferred cell models. This is because our laboratory is still actively developing the technical expertise and resources required for establishing and maintaining primary megakaryocyte and CD34+ cell cultures. Despite the limitations of the current study, we believe the results using HEL and Meg-01 cells provide valuable preliminary insights into the potential effects of VLZ on megakaryocyte differentiation. We are actively working to overcome these limitations and plan to incorporate these more advanced models in our future investigations.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I think the authors can enhance the mechanism study by developing more reliable models and methodologies. The connection to clinical research should be strengthened at the same time.

      Response: We deeply appreciate your insightful feedback and valuable suggestions regarding the use of more suitable models for studying the role of VLZ in megakaryocyte differentiation and platelet production. Despite the limitations, we are committed to expanding our research in the future by incorporating your suggestion and establishing a primary megakaryocyte model to further validate our findings and strengthen our conclusions. At the same time, we wholeheartedly concur with your suggestion to combine clinical research. Unfortunately, VLZ is not a first-line treatment for depression in China, and getting blood samples from the matching number of patients for analysis is a challenge. To give additional experimental support for the medication, we have attempted to improve the data in vivo as much as feasible, including by implementing the intervention in normal mice. Our findings should also contribute to the theoretical underpinnings of this medication and aid in its practical application.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Issues the authors need to address:

      Figure 7: Why the band intensity of GAPDH in b or e is much greater than that in f, g, or h?

      Response: Thank you for your careful observation and insightful comment regarding Figure 7. Because the concentration of each batch of protein samples is different, sometimes the GAPDH band strength is increased by the large loading volume. Other factors that may influence the GAPDH band strength include the instrument's contrast adjustment during exposure and the use of different numbers of holes for electrophoresis. Meanwhile, the original three replicate results of all WB results will be provided in the supplementary materials.

      Finally, we sincerely thank you for providing us with this opportunity to make a further revision and modification of our manuscript, and your valuable and scientific comments are useful for the great improvement of our manuscript!

    1. Note: This response was posted by the corresponding author to Review Commons. The content has not been altered except for formatting.

      Learn more at Review Commons


      Reply to the reviewers

      Response and revision plan

      Manuscript number: RC- 2024-02380

      Corresponding author(s): Emma R Andersson

      1. General Statements

      We sincerely appreciate the thorough and positive review provided by all reviewers. Their comments have provided valuable suggestions to improve and enhance clarity of our study on the role of Jag1-mediated Notch signaling in cochlear development, and its implications for Alagille syndrome. Furthermore, their feedback has underscored the significance of our study in elucidating patterning and hearing deficits, and its relevance for therapeutic considerations*. *

      2. Description of the planned revisions

      Comment from BioRxiv

      In addition to comments from appointed reviewers, Jaime García-Añoveros emailed us with a comment on our BioRxiv preprint. Professor García-Añoveros was interested in our finding thatTbx2 is expressed in OHC-like cells (Fig5), because his lab has shown that Tbx2 is an inner hair cell determinant (García-Añoveros et al., 2022). Fig 5 shows quantifications of Tbx2 RNAscope punctae in sections, showing that Tbx2 is expressed in Jag1Ndr/Ndr outer hair cell-like cells, in the inner hair cell compartment, at similar levels to that expressed by the extra inner hair cells also present in Jag1Ndr/Ndr mice. He suggested we perform RNAscope for Tbx2 on wholemount cochlear preparations, to confirm the Fig 5 data from cross sections. While we are confident of our quantifications, which were based on optical slice sections Reviewer comments

      We have already implemented some of the reviewer suggestions, as detailed under point 3, and the list below is therefore discontinuously numbered.

      Reviewer 1

      *Comments regarding quality of images: the picture quality for Figure 4b is low, especially for F-actin staining. Please enhance the intensity. (check image). Fig. 1g, poor quality. The WT cochlea looks severely disorganized. (replace image) *

      Response

      Figure 4b and Fig1g images will be improved or replaced. We plan a more extensive analysis of the adult phenotype, to also address comment #1 from Reviewer 2 (described below in response to Reviewer 2, #1).


      Reviewer 2

      Fig1g shows a very abnormal cross section through the cochlear duct. There are no clearly visible Deiters' cells. Is this the case? Loss of outer hair cell function should only increase thresholds about 40dB, and there are increased thresholds reported here of 60+, despite remaining outer hair cells. This could be accounted for by the conduction defects, but also, there may be defects in the adult ear not observed earlier. Is there any inner hair cell loss? Deiter cell loss? Are inner and outer hair cell stereocilia normal? These may account for the severe hearing loss.

      • *

      Response

      To further characterize the adult cochlear phenotype, we will quantify the number of IHCs, OHCs and SCs with immunohistological staining of cryosections from adult Jag1Ndr/Ndr mice, and address in the Discussion section how this phenotype relates to the observed hearing loss. Additionally, we plan to analyze ABR wave-I characteristics of existing recordings to further study auditory nerve fiber responses and IHC function.

      We have added a discussion of the relative contribution of middle and inner ear defects to the overall hearing loss in the Discussion section (lines 385-399), to also address comment #3 from reviewer 1 (below in section 3 "revisions that have been already incorporated in transferred manuscript").

      Reviewer 2

      *What is the rationale for reporting differences in the p-value that are not significant at the adjusted p-value? Since these are whole genome analysis it is only appropriate to report significance by adjusted p-values. *

      *One of the novel aspects of this study is the finding that Notch components are upregulated in the Jag1Ndr/Ndr mutants (although some of these results are not significant at the adjusted p value). Given the potential significance that these results would indicate (including c-inhibition), it would be important to confirm upregulation of key Notch components in situ using RNA-scope or immunohistochemistry. *

      Response

      We agree that multiple hypothesis testing should be corrected for (with adjusted p values), which we have done in all analyses. However, we considered it relevant to report enriched or depleted genes that reached a meaningful fold difference and p-value threshold, even though the adjusted p-value threshold was not met. Our hope was that this would provide transparency and allow for consideration of the different sample sizes (different abundance of specific cell types), allowing the reader to explore the data. For further transparency, a distinction in labelling of significant adj. p-values and p-values was previously made in the original manuscript.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out that the Notch target gene upregulation is an interesting and novel finding. We will perform RNAscope experiments to validate the upregulation of Notch components and target genes at P5, including Jag1, Jag2, Hes5, Nrarp, Tns1 and Cxcl12. Quantification of the RNA scope signal will also provide an alternative approach to testing whether the enrichment/upregulation of Notch target genes is statistically significant.


      __Reviewer 1 __

      Text and figure comments: Scale bar missing in Figure1b and Figure1h. Please mention the scale bar presented mm in the figure legends for Figure 2; Figure 3; SFigure 6.

      Response

      Scale bar information will be added to the specified figures.

      3. Description of the revisions that have already been incorporated in the transferred manuscript

      Reviewer 1

      Developmentally hair cells develop from the base to the apex starting from the IHC to OHC. The observation of the changes in HC pattern indicates the impact of Notch in timing and maturation status of HC differentiation. Likely by the time when OHCs are supposed to be developed, which is dictated by the suppression of IHC and the activation of OHC signals, due to the dysregulation of Jag1, the IHC signaling cannot be sufficiently suppressed, whereas the OHC signaling cannot be sufficiently activated. This has a positional effect as further it is from the IHCs, more mature OHC can develop. Could the authors dig deeper into the scRNAseq data to see if they can isolate the profile of extra IHCs in the JagNdr/Ndr mouse, to see if they can detect the expression of some OHC genes albeit at much lower levels?

      Response

      There were no significant gene expression differences between Jag1Ndr/Ndr and Jag1+/+ IHCs. As we expect the Jag1Ndr/Ndr IHC pool to contain similar numbers of de facto IHCs and ectopic IHCs, failure to detect any differences suggests that the ectopic IHCs are transcriptionally similar to de facto IHCs. To further address the ectopic IHC signature, we subsetted, renormalized and reclustered the Jag1Ndr/Ndr and Jag1+/+ IHCs. No Jag1Ndr/Ndr-specific clusters were identified in this analysis (new Supplementary Fig 4c). In addition, we analysed the expression of IHC- and OHC-specific markers to assess the faithfulness of Jag1Ndr/Ndr IHCs and OHCs. As reported in our original manuscript, Jag1Ndr/Ndr OHCs expressed lower levels of OHC markers. However, Jag1Ndr/Ndr IHCs were indistinguishable from *Jag1+/+ * IHCs (new Supplementary Fig 4b). These new analyses also address comment #2 by Reviewer 2 (see below).

      As the reviewer pointed out that development of HCs occurs from base to apex, we have added a quantification of apex and base regions of the P5 phenotype to Sfig5 and described this data in the Results section (lines 230-231).

      • *

      Reviewer 1

      It is difficult to dissect the contribution of middle ear malformation and inner ear defects to hearing loss in Alagille syndrome with the current model. For the development of any therapy, the two main factors have to be analyzed separately. One option is to generate an inner ear-specific JagNdr/Ndr model to bypass the middle ear issue, which can be evaluated for potential therapy. This part should be discussed.

      Response

      We agree that the relative contribution of middle and inner ear defects to hearing loss in a Jag1-compromised setting cannot be assessed with Jag1Ndr/Ndr mice. Generation of an inner-ear specific Jag1 Nodder model to bypass middle ear defects and address the relative contribution of middle and inner ear defects, would be technically challenging/impossible since the Nodder mouse model carries a single missense mutation in Jag1 and must be carefully maintained on a mixed genetic background to fully recapitulate Alagille syndrome. However, previous elegant work from other groups has dissected the function of Jag1 in supporting cells and neural crest, and how defects in each of these systems contribute to hearing loss. We therefore now comprehensively discuss this work by others (lines 385-399).

      Reviewer 1

      *In Figure 1, the author mentioned the major defects found in the vestibular system. Is there any difference in the vestibular system at the cellular level? Some evidence will be informative. *

      Jag1Ndr/Ndr mice completely lack the posterior semicircular canal, which explains the head nodding behavior observed in our model, since the posterior semicircular canal detects head-tilting towards the shoulders. We have no data on the hair cells located in the saccule or utricle. Since the paper focusses on patterning and hearing, rather than balance, we consider further analysis of the vestibular system at cellular level outside of the scope of our paper.


      Reviewer 2

      From the UMAP plot in Fig 2b, it seems that the scRNA-seq data did not reveal any change in cell identities in the Jag1Ndr/Ndr ears. This result is not really discussed in the results or discussion-particularly why the OHC-like cells, extra IHCs, and absent Hensen's cells are not revealed in this analysis.

      Response

      In our scRNAseq dataset we were unable to identify, with certainty, an OHC-like population. After subsetting HCs, we did observe an additional OHC population exclusive to homozygous animals. However, after RNAscope validation, this population might have arisen from contamination with PCs. IHCs were transcriptionally similar between wildtype and homozygous animals, and we were unable to identify the ectopic IHCs. We additionally reported fewer to almost absent HeCs in the homozygous dataset. This data has been shown in the Results section (Fig2b) and in Supplementary Table 8 (number of cells per cell type) and has been discussed in the Discussion section. To further address the lack of separation of IHCs and ectopic IHCs, and failure to identify OHC-like cells, we have added additional panels assessing IHCs and OHC gene expression to SFigure4. This also addressed comments #2 addressed by Reviewer 1 (see above).

      Reviewer 2

      *It is difficult to know which cells are extra (+1), including inner hair cells. Since scRNAseq did not reveal a different gene signature for these 'extra' cells, it is more appropriate to just count them all together. *

      Response

      We have merged the quantification of IHCs and +1 IHCs to total IHCs in Fig4c. Separate original quantification of IHCs and +1 IHCs is reported in SFigure5, since the data presented in this way reflect a doubling of the IHC row.

      Reviewer 2

      Additionally, a previous report has suggested that JAG1 mediates cis-inhibition in the medial region of the cochlea. The data presented here do not show an upregulation of Notch signaling in the medial supporting cells, suggesting this is not the case. This should be discussed.

      Response

      It is indeed interesting to note that, although with comparable sample size for medial and lateral populations, upregulation of Notch activation is restricted to lateral SCs, and not, despite previous indications (Basch et al., 2016), observed in medial SC populations. We have discussed the possibility for cis-inhibition to a greater extent in the Discussion section (lines 310-311).


      Reviewer 2 and Reviewer 3

      *Pg 9 Discussion: The sentence: "The JAG1NDR missense mutant is expressed in vivo, and traffics normally, but does not bind or activate NOTCH1", is somewhat misleading because it suggests this allele has no function. Based on the milder ear phenotype to null alleles as well as survival suggests that this allele is hypomorphic. This should be clarified and discussed. *

      • *

      The authors should provide a more detailed description of the Nodder mice (the nature of the mutation and how it may effect Notch1 and Notch2 receptor activation) in the introduction.

      Response

      We now introduce the Nodder mouse model (Hansson et al., 2010) and signaling defects to a greater extent in the Introduction section (lines 66-68).

      Reviewer 2

      Pg 5 third paragraph, "Differential gene expression analysis identified 40 up- and 42-downregulated genes in Jag1Ndr/Ndr versus Jag1+/+ IPhCs, with pathway dysregulation similar to the pseudobulk analyses (Fig3c, Supp.Table 5,6)"-should be 40 downregulated and 42 upregulated. Similarly: Pg 6 second paragraph: Differential gene expression analysis identified 1 up and* 42-downregulated genes in Jag1Ndr/Ndr DCs versus Jag1+/+ DCs-should be 1 down and 42 up. *

      Response

      Thank you for catching our accidental inversion here. The text has been corrected accordingly.

      4. Description of analyses that authors prefer not to carry out

      Please include a point-by-point response explaining why some of the requested data or additional analyses might not be necessary or cannot be provided within the scope of a revision. This can be due to time or resource limitations or in case of disagreement about the necessity of such additional data given the scope of the study. Please leave empty if not applicable.

      • *

      Reviewer 1

      To study how Jag1 insufficiency affects the development, the authors included the JagNdr/Ndr mouse model. To fully understand the characteristics of the Nodder mouse model, it's necessary to include the direct age-dependent comparison of the Jag1 level (by qPCR/and or Western blot) between Jag1+/+ v.s. from JagNdr/Ndr in Figure 1 at some selected stages to correlate the Jag1 insufficiency with the "Nodder" model. A spatial expression comparison of Jag1 between Jag1+/+ v.s. from JagNdr/Ndr from different the main age groups should be included in SFigure 2, together with Notch target genes.

      The JAG1 Nodder mutation results in a hypomorphic ligand that is unable to bind and activate the Notch1 receptor (Hansson et al., 2010). The ligand itself, however, is still expressed, and its protein expression can even be upregulated in vivo (Hansson et al., 2010). Therefore, performing quantitative expression analysis of JAG1 expression (by qPCR or immunohistochemistry) would not provide insights into the levels of JAG1 activity. Instead, we show that there is decreased Notch target gene expression at the prosensory domain stage, as a proxy for Notch activation levels (SFigure2. A more detailed introduction of the model is provided in the Introduction (lines66-68), to also address a comment from Reviewer 2, #7 and Reviewer 3 comment #2.

      Reviewer 3

      The mutant form of Jagged1 in Nodder mice is trafficked to the cell surface, and while this mutant form of Jagged1 is incapable of activating the Notch1 receptor it may interact with "new" proteins, gaining new functions. My recommendation to the authors is to determine whether similar defects occur in conditional Jag1 knockout mice (increased Notch signaling in lateral supporting cells and presence of ectopic outer-hair cell like cells). The ability to disrupt Jag1 function at different stages of development may also help to determine why Jag1 deficiency renders some outer hair cells insensitive to Tbx2. If this is not possible due to time constrains, I would recommend a more in-depth discussion of the limitations of using Nodder mice.


      Jag1 conditional knockout at various stages, has not been reported to result in ectopic OHC-like cells (Brooker et al., 2006; Chrysostomou et al., 2020; Gilels et al., 2022). However, two other Jag1 missense mutants display atypical hair cells in the IHC compartment, which could be the OHC-like cells we report here (Kiernan et al., 2001; Tsai et al., 2001). Taken together, these data would suggest that Jag1 loss of function in supporting cells is not sufficient to result in OHC-like cells, but that constitutive Jag1 insufficiency can drive OHC-like cell formation. We now cite these data and discuss possible interpretations, as suggested (lines 324-331).

      References

      Basch, M. L., Brown, R. M., Jen, H.-I., Semerci, F., Depreux, F., Edlund, R. K., Zhang, H., Norton, C. R., Gridley, T., Cole, S. E., Doetzlhofer, A., Maletic-Savatic, M., Segil, N., & Groves, A. K. (2016). Fine-tuning of Notch signaling sets the boundary of the organ of Corti and establishes sensory cell fates. ELife, 5, 841-850. https://doi.org/10.7554/eLife.19921

      Brooker, R., Hozumi, K., & Lewis, J. (2006). Notch ligands with contrasting functions: Jagged1 and Delta1 in the mouse inner ear. Development, 133(7), 1277-1286. https://doi.org/10.1242/dev.02284

      Chrysostomou, E., Zhou, L., Darcy, Y. L., Graves, K. A., Doetzlhofer, A., & Cox, B. C. (2020). The notch ligand jagged1 is required for the formation, maintenance, and survival of Hensen's cells in the mouse cochlea. Journal of Neuroscience, 40(49). https://doi.org/10.1523/JNEUROSCI.1192-20.2020

      García-Añoveros, J., Clancy, J. C., Foo, C. Z., García-Gómez, I., Zhou, Y., Homma, K., Cheatham, M. A., & Duggan, A. (2022). Tbx2 is a master regulator of inner versus outer hair cell differentiation. Nature, 605(7909). https://doi.org/10.1038/s41586-022-04668-3

      Gilels, F. A., Wang, J., Bullen, A., White, P. M., & Kiernan, A. E. (2022). Deletion of the Notch ligand Jagged1 during cochlear maturation leads to inner hair cell defects and hearing loss. Cell Death and Disease, 13(11). https://doi.org/10.1038/s41419-022-05380-w

      Hansson, E. M., Lanner, F., Das, D., Mutvei, A., Marklund, U., Ericson, J., Farnebo, F., Stumm, G., Stenmark, H., Andersson, E. R., & Lendahl, U. (2010). Control of Notch-ligand endocytosis by ligand-receptor interaction. Journal of Cell Science, 123(Pt 17), 2931-2942. https://doi.org/10.1242/jcs.073239

      Kiernan, A. E., Ahituv, N., Fuchs, H., Balling, R., Avraham, K. B., Steel, K. P., & Hrabé de Angelis, M. (2001). The Notch ligand Jagged1 is required for inner ear sensory development. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America, 98(7), 3873-3878. https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.071496998

      Tsai, H., Hardisty, R. E., Rhodes, C., Kiernan, A. E., Roby, P., Tymowska-Lalanne, Z., Mburu, P., Rastan, S., Hunter, A. J., Brown, S. D. M., & Steel, K. P. (2001). The mouse slalom mutant demonstrates a role for Jagged1 in neuroepithelial patterning in the organ of Corti. Hum Mol Genet, 10(5), 507-512. https://doi.org/10.1093/hmg/10.5.507

    1. other studies have shown that people in CNM relationships (mainly swingers) report higher levels of excitement and lower levels of boredom (Bergstrand & Williams, 2000; Gilmartin, 1974; Murstein et al., 1985). They are also characterized by stronger social bonds and lower levels of anomie as compared to monogamous people (Gilmartin, 1974). Research also indicates a stronger ability to cope with jealousy in people who engage in CNM relationships

      differences /b/ poly and mono people: CNM people = m+ excited, l- bored, stronger social bonds, less anomie, less jealousy

    1. Note: This response was posted by the corresponding author to Review Commons. The content has not been altered except for formatting.

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      Reply to the reviewers

      Reviewer_01

      Major comments:

      1. The authors cite that acetylated and tyrosinated microtubules have different spatial and compartmental distribution in dendrites and axons and investigate the distribution in the AIS of nonAcD cells and AcD cells, as well as the stem dendrites. However, they just show one example of two different cells (Figure 2D and E) without any statistical analysis. Either, they should remove this part or provide a thorough quantification. Reply: The spatial and compartmentalized distribution of stable and dynamic MTs in the dendrites and axons of nonAcD neurons has been extensively studied and reviewed (see Kapitein & Hoogenraad, 2011; Katrukha et al., 2021; Tas et al., 2017 for reference). However, the organization of the MT cytoskeleton in AcD neurons is still unknown. Here, we provide the very first evidence on the distribution of tyrosinated and acetylated MTs in AcD neurons, as well as data on MT orientations. We agree with the reviewer that to make our results on the spatial organization of these post-translational modifications in AcD neurons more complete, we need to provide a more thorough quantification analysis.

      To achieve this, we plan to perform immunostainings on DIV10 neurons using antibodies against tyrosinated (tyr) and acetylated (ac-) tubulin to label dynamic and stable MTs, respectively. Subsequently, we will conduct high-resolution 3D confocal imaging and measure fluorescent intensity to illustrate the abundance and staining patterns of tyr- and ac- MTs in the axons and dendrites of AcD neurons. Since the spatial distribution of tyr- and ac-MTs is distinguishable with confocal microscopy, we will retain STED examples in the figures but conduct new analyses on confocal imaging data. We will measure the total fluorescent intensity of tyr- and ac- MTs in different compartments of AcD neurons and normalize it to the size of the measured area. We will then compare the normalized intensity values between the axons and dendrites of AcD neurons to examine whether there is a specific distribution pattern of stable and dynamic MTs. We will analyse at least 3 independent primary culture preparations with a minimum of 30 cells. Using the same dataset, we will also quantify the percentage of AcD neurons with ac-MTs specifically elongating into the axon compared to AcD.

      The authors use EGFP-Rab3A vesicle to investigate anterograde transport at the axon and dendrites. They find a slightly faster transport of these vesicles at the AIS of AcD cells and conclude the axonal cargos in general are transported faster across the AIS in AcD cells. In my opinion, this generalization based on one type of vesicle is too farfetched.

      Reply: The Rab3A protein is associated with pre-synaptic vesicles that are transported by KIF1A and KIF1Bβ, members of the kinesin-3 family, towards pre-synaptic buttons (see Guedes-Dias & Holzbaur, 2019; Niwa et al., 2008 for reference). Since KIF1A and KIF1Bβ are common motor proteins that mediate MT-based transport of different types of vesicles (e.g., synaptic vesicles and dense-core vesicles, see Carabalona et al., 2016; Helmer & Vallee, 2023 for reference), we reasoned that Rab3A should be a representative marker for an axonal cargo. However, this indeed does not rule out whether the faster trafficking effect we saw is specific to presynaptic vesicles, as different types of vesicles tend to recruit different modulators that could lead to different trafficking features.

      To address this question, we will perform a live-imaging experiment including two additional organelle marker proteins, Neuropeptide Y (NPY) and Lysosome-associated membrane protein 1 (Lamp1). NPY is transported into the axon via KIF1A and KIF1Bβ-mediated dense-core vesicles (see Helmer & Vallee, 2023; Lipka et al., 2016 for reference). Lamp1 is associated with lysosomes and a range of endocytic organelles that recruit both kinesin-1 and kinesin-3, and are transported into both axons and dendrites (as reviewed in Cabukusta & Neefjes, 2018). By introducing two additional types of vesicles, we should be able to answer whether AcD neurons, in general, tend to transport cargoes into the axon faster than nonAcD neurons.

      __Minor comments: __

      In the introduction, the authors describe how synaptic inputs are received at the dendrites and propagated to the soma in the form of membrane depolarizations. They should add 'excitatory' to synaptic inputs or also describe the impact of inhibitory synaptic inputs at the dendrites.

      In my opinion, Figure 2 could be presented in a slightly better way. The lower part of panel A better fits to panel B, which is next to the upper part of panel A. I understand that the authors systematically present their data first for nonAcD cells and then for AcD cells. However, in this special case it is a little bit more difficult to read the current figure in that order. The results displayed in Figure 4 are presented in a slightly confusing order. The authors jump from 4D to 4G, then to 4I and 4E, 4H, 4F. Similarly, 4M and N are addressed before 4O and P to finally get to 4K and L. It would be beneficial to present and address the data in a stringent way.

      Reply: Thank you for the suggestions on how to improve the data representation in the figures. We will change Figures 2 and 4 and make adjustments in the text upon revision since we also plan to include additional data.

      Reviewer_02

      Major comments:

      1. The authors suggest that there is reduced Na+ channel density at AcD AIS compared to other AIS arising from the cell body. This is not convincing. Immunostaining for Na+ channels is notoriously difficult and sensitive to fixation since the epitopes of the anti-Pan Nav antibodies are highly sensitive to fixation. In addition, this is based on immunofluorescence intensity quantification. Since the mechanism of localization is through binding to AnkG, the authors should also measure other AIS proteins like AnkG, b4 spectrin, and Nfasc. Do these change? If all uniformly change I would be much more inclined to accept the conclusion. If they do not change, it still doesn't rule out the concern about fixation conditions and slight differences in the cultures. The authors indicate there is about a 40% reduction in fluorescence intensity. That is quite large. This big difference should also be confirmed in brain sections. Reply: The potential fixation issue and antibody sensitivity on Na+ channel staining are indeed valid considerations, and we are aware of them. However, it should be noted that we used pan-Na+ channel antibodies that were previously characterised and widely used in literature (see Solé et al., 2019; Yang et al., 2020 for references). Furthermore, our samples underwent the same fixation and staining protocol, and comparable numbers of AcD and nonAcD neurons were imaged from the same preparation and coverslip for each experiment. Imaging settings were also kept constant. Any loss of Na+ channel staining at the AIS due to fixation should affect both neuron types and therefore our conclusion is justified. Nevertheless, the reviewer's point regarding other AIS components is valid and will be investigated further in the revised manuscript.

      Following the reviewer's suggestion to further strengthen our conclusion, we will measure the intensity of AnkG, βIV-spectrin, and neurofascin in DIV21 AcD and nonAcD neurons. We will compare a minimum of 3 independent cultures, each containing at least 10 cells of each type per culture.

      We agree with the reviewer that confirming observed differences in Na+ channel staining using brain slices would be beneficial. However, conducting such experiments presents several challenges. Firstly, one approach could involve immunostaining with antibodies against AIS marker AnkG, in combination with somatodendritic marker MAP2 and pan-Nav. However, this method lacks the advantage of clearly identifying neuronal morphology as seen in dissociated cultures, making the outcome unclear and difficult for analysis and interpretation. Alternatively, the use of Thy1-GFP rats, where a subset of neurons is labelled with GFP, could allow for morphological studies. Unfortunately, we do not have access to this rat line, and the process of importing it, obtaining permits, and establishing a colony is beyond the timeframe for manuscript revision. Additionally, while pan-Nav antibodies have shown reliability in dissociated cultures, their efficacy in tissue staining is less certain. We could provide example images upon request. Secondly, endogenously labelling of Na+ channels is another option, but remains a significant challenge. Recent developments in endogenous labelling, such as the CRISPR/Cas9-based method using pORANGE by Fréal et al. (Fréal et al., 2023), and the generation of Scn1a-GFP transgenic mice by Yamagata et al. (Yamagata et al., 2023), offer potential solutions. However, the labelling efficiency of pORANGE is uncertain, and both methods are time-consuming and cannot be completed within the three-month revision period.

      As an alternative, we propose emphasising that our results are based on in vitro experiments and discussing the advantages and limitations of this approach in the discussion section.

      The analysis of inhibitory synapse differences at the AIS are also not compelling - this is a limitation of the culture system. The authors have no control over the density of inhibitory neurons in the culture well. This interaction is not intrinsic to the AcD neuron, but rather a feature of neuron-neuron interactions which should only be modelled in the animal.

      Reply: The reviewer is correct in pointing out that establishing inhibitory synapses at the AIS is not an intrinsic feature of AcD neurons; it depends on the network and should be modelled in animals. We will include this limitation of the cell culture model in the discussion section in the revised manuscript. We also understand the reviewer's concern that the lower amount of inhibitory synapses at AcD neuron AIS might be due to uneven density of inhibitory neurons between cultures. Nonetheless, assuming that the number of inhibitory neurons is constant between preparations, it is an interesting observation that AcD neurons form fewer inhibitory synapses at the AIS. This may be related to the features of the AIS and its morphology and should be further investigated.

      To make our study more comprehensive and also address the reviewer's concern regarding the presence of inhibitory neurons, we will perform immunostainings in dissociated cultures (40.000 cells per 18 mm coverslip, same as in experiments with synapse quantification) with antibodies against pCaMKIIa, an excitatory neuron marker, and GAD1, a marker for inhibitory neurons. Then, we will quantify the density of inhibitory neurons in the culture. We will perform measurements from 3-6 independent cultures by analysing large fields of view in different areas of a coverslip (20-30 neurons per area) to determine if the density of inhibitory neurons varies between cultures as well as preparations. Furthermore, as also requested by reviewer 4, we will perform new immunostainings where pre- and post-synaptic markers (VGAT and Gephyrin) will be included in the same sample together with the AIS (AnkG or Neurofascin) and dendritic marker (MAP2). Synapses that contain pre- and post-synaptic components will be analysed and included in the revised version of the manuscript.

      Finally, the major limitation of this study is that it is performed in vitro. Surprisingly, the authors actually argue this is a feature of their system. While it is true some of the questions can be addressed perfectly well in vitro, many cannot. In the first paragraph of the results the authors state an advantage of their system is that there are no microenvironments to influence the development of the AcDs. I'm afraid I view this as a drawback. The authors suggest this is an opportunity to examine intrinsic mechanisms of development - true, but it also foregoes the opportunity to determine if the outcomes are different from what occurs in vivo. To this point, the authors report that only 15-20% of the population of hippocampal neurons in culture are AcD neurons. But in their introduction they cite other literature indicating 50% of hippocampal neurons in vivo are AcD neurons - this suggests that the environment of the hippocampus in vivo influences whether a neuron becomes an AcD neuron or not.

      Reply: The reviewer is right in pointing that the in vivo environment could indeed affect AcD neuron development, and we also find this to be a very interesting topic to investigate in the future. Even more intriguingly, as shown in a preprint by Lehmann et al. (doi: https://doi.org/10.1101/2023.07.31.551236), network activity stimulates neurons to acquire AcD morphology. While it is true that the impact of the microenvironment on AcD neuron development cannot be studied in dissociated cultures, our in vitro data undoubtedly support the fact that hippocampal neurons can intrinsically develop into AcD morphology independent of the in vivo environment. As also mentioned in the next point, our statement "...their development must be driven by genetically encoded factors rather than specific..." might sound too definitive and therefore eliminate possible effects from the microenvironment. We will revise this part. Although it is highly desirable to move cell biological studies from neuronal cell cultures to tissue, to date, it is still very challenging to perform many of experiments which we did in this study in slices or living animals due to a lack of appropriate technologies and tools. We are convinced that many basic biological questions can be and should be studied in simplified culturing models because they are truly fundamental, they should also be reproducible in these models.

      To address the reviewer's question regarding the percentage difference between our data and the previous study by Thome et al. (2014), several factors should be considered. First, as noted by the reviewer, our results were obtained from an in vitro system, which is not directly comparable to the in vivo model system used in Thome et al.'s study (Thome et al., 2014). Second, the age of the neurons quantified in our developmental experiments is DIV5 and DIV7. This young age disparity could contribute to the percentage difference, as Thome et al. analyzed neurons from P28-35 adult animals, where 50% of the AcD neuron population was observed, specifically in the CA1 region. Third, it's important to note that in other hippocampal regions, the percentage of AcD neurons is lower (approximately 20-30%). Since our hippocampal primary cultures contain neurons from all hippocampal regions, this may have averaged out our quantification of AcD neuron percentage. Additionally, in the study by Benavides-Piccione et al. (Benavides-Piccione et al., 2020), they reported 20% AcD neurons in the CA1 region of hippocampi isolated from 8-week-old mouse pups, a number similar to what we observed in vitro. Interestingly, Thome et al. reported that in P8 pups, AcD neuron population in hippocampal CA1 region is 30%. This number increased to 50% in adult animals at age of P28-35, suggesting there is perhaps an age dependent increase of AcD neuron population. This could be an additional reason of why we only saw 15-20% of AcD neurons in our in vitro system, regardless of the in vivo environment.

      In the revised version, we will clarify these points in the introduction and discussion sections. Additionally, we will quantify the proportion of AcD neurons in mature DIV21 dissociated hippocampal cultures and compare it to DIV7 cultures to assess whether there is an increase in the AcD population over time. We believe that this experiment, combined with the explanations provided above, will sufficiently address the reviewer's question. However, it is important to acknowledge that the establishment of neuronal networks in vitro differ from those in vivo. Therefore, there may be potential differences in the outcomes.

      I appreciated the balanced discussion of whether this is a stochastic or genetically programmed process. This could have been emphasized earlier in the results since the authors invoke the concept that "...their development must be driven by genetically encoded factors rather than specific...". The authors have not shown this and cannot show it in this system. Indeed, as stated in point 4 above, I think their data argue against a simple genetic program.

      Reply: As suggested by the reviewer and noted in point 4, we will revise the section on AcD neuron development in our manuscript to emphasize that hippocampal neurons may adopt AcD morphology through genetic or stochastic mechanisms. While we acknowledge that environmental and activity factors may also influence this process, particularly in mature neurons, our study focuses on developing neurons where genetic and stochastic factors are likely to be predominant. This conclusion is supported by the observation that neurons develop into AcD morphology in vitro, where environmental and activity patterns do not mimic those of in vivo systems.

      Indeed, our current manuscript does not explore genetic factors involved in AcD neuron development. To address this question, one approach could be to label AIS markers endogenously in dissociated cultures using the PORANGE method (see Willems et al., 2020 for reference) or utilize AnkG-GFP transgenic mice (Fréal et al., 2023; Thome et al., 2023) along with a volume marker like mRuby or GFP. This would allow for the identification of AcD and nonAcD neurons in vivo and in vitro, followed by single-cell transcriptomics analysis to uncover potential genetic factors. Subsequently, candidate genes could be manipulated to demonstrate their essential role in AcD neuron development. However, such experiments require significant time and resources beyond the scope of our current revision timeframe. Nonetheless, this question presents an exciting direction for future research.

      Reviewer 3

      Major comments:

      1. The authors classify neurons into axon-carrying dendrite (AcD) and non-AcD neurons by measuring the stem dendrite length (> 3 µm). I could not find the validity for this cut-off. The non-AcD neurons in Fig. 6B appear more AcD to this reviewer, and, in addition, other researchers have proposed a third category of 'shared root' neurons (doi: 10.7554/eLife.76101). For purposes of reproducibility and transparency, please provide first a comprehensive overview of the entire population of morphologies (i.e. all cells in control conditions). The distances from the soma could be plotted in histogram (etc.) and authors may want to think about independent supporting evidence for the cut-off to classify AcD and non-AcD neurons. Reply: Concerning the validity of AcD neuron classification, we did measure the length of the stem dendrite, as shown in Figure S4G, with an average distance of around 10 µm. However, we admit that this information is presented relatively late in the manuscript. To address the reviewer's criticism, in the revised version, we will include a supplementary figure displaying a gallery of representative images of both AcD and nonAcD neurons analyzed in our study (please refer to Hodapp et al., 2022; Fig S1 C&D; Fig S3 as an example). Given the sample size of AcD and nonAcD neurons in our study, including all images would result in a very large figure (for example, Figure 1: DIV5: 83 AcD neurons out of 427 cells, DIV7: 47 AcD neurons out of 387 cells). We will only show representative examples of AcD neurons in the gallery. Additionally, as suggested, we will plot the length of the stem dendrite (or axon distance) of AcD neurons as a histogram to demonstrate that the AcD neurons included in our study indeed have a stem dendrite longer than 3 µm. To further validate the used classification method, we will measure the diameter of the stem dendrite in all analyzed AcD neurons and then compare the distance between the soma and the start of the axon in each analyzed AcD neuron to the diameter of its stem dendrite. As described by Hodapp et al. (Hodapp et al., 2022; Fig S1A), AcD neurons are expected to have a stem dendrite longer than their diameter.

      We have considered having independent evidence to support the classification of nonAcD and AcD neurons. However, the method used by Thome et al. and Wahle et al. for AcD and nonAcD neuron classification is well established and widely accepted (see Thome et al., 2014; Wahle et al., 2022 for references). Similar standards were also employed by Benavides-Piccione et al. (Benavides-Piccione et al., 2020). Introducing independent evidence could potentially raise further doubts, so we have chosen to maintain consistency with previous studies.

      As for the "shared root" neurons described by Wahle et al., we did not analyze this category separately and included them in the nonAcD subtype. Nonetheless, it is an interesting direction to explore in the future. For completeness, we will discuss this point in the revised manuscript.

      Related to point #1 the primary hippocampal neuron system is excellent for cell biological questions but comes with the drawback of imaginative morphologies including neurons with multiple axons and AISs. It is not mentioned here but literature indicates up to 20% of neurons have two axons (e.g. doi: 10.1007/s12264-017-0169-3, 10.1083/jcb.200707042). How did the authors classify the double axon cells? Since the main hypothesis is the existence of an intrinsic program for AcD neurons (p. 5 top), the two axons from one neuron should develop similarly. The authors can easily test this with the data.

      Reply: We appreciate the reviewer's comment regarding the choice of the model system for this type of study. Indeed, as they pointed out, in primary cultures, some neurons develop more than one axon. Since we did not find any supporting evidence from the literature reporting that hippocampal neurons have multiple axons in vivo, we only analyzed neurons with one axon for both AcD and nonAcD neurons. We will clarify this in our method section of the revised manuscript.

      Some interpretations about function are not correct and the authors should reconsider these. A role of cisternal organelles on neuronal excitability remains to be demonstrated (and see doi.org/10.1002/cne.21445 showing there is none). In addition, the statement that lower fluorescence intensity of Pan-Nav1 is indicating reduced excitability is flawed. Antibody staining does not scale linearly with voltage-gated sodium channel density and since the AIS of AcD neurons is further from the soma it is most likely smaller in diameter which may account for apparent fluorescent differences. For biophysical reasons (for details I refer to 10.3389/fncel.2019.00570, 10.1016/j.conb.2018.02.016 and 10.7554/eLife.53432) smaller diameter axons will be easier to depolarize by depolarizing voltage-gated channels or excitatory synapses. Finally, in AcD neurons the AIS distance from the soma poses all sorts of interesting cable properties with the soma and the local dendritic membrane and the electrotonic properties alone suffice to make these neurons more excitable.

      Reply: The reviewer brings up very valid and important points that we will address in the revised manuscript. First, we will rephrase and adjust our interpretations regarding the functions of the cisternal organelle in the AIS. As also mentioned by reviewer #2, we are aware that antibody staining does not properly reflect Na+ channel density. As discussed above, we will also measure other AIS proteins that anchor Na+ channels to see if there are any correlations in fluorescence intensity between them and Nav1. We agree with the reviewer that AcD neuron's AIS could have a smaller diameter, resulting in fewer Na+ channels. Indirect evidence is already available in the study of Benavides-Piccione et al., showing a smaller axon diameter in AcD neurons compared to nonAcD neurons in both human and mouse brain sections (Figure S4). To test this in our model system, we propose to measure the AIS diameter in AcD neurons. If this is indeed the case, we will indicate it in our revised manuscript and edit the section on Na+ channels.

      Exploring the biophysical properties of the AIS and axons of AcD neurons is indeed a highly interesting direction to pursue and is the project in its own. It would necessitate the use of computational modeling approaches, which require considerable time and resources that are not feasible within the timeframe of this revision.

      Comparing AcD and non-AcD neurons for AIS plasticity is an excellent idea but the present statistical design is not suitable for answering this question. The authors should directly compare non-AcD and AcD neurons within a two-way ANOVA design, asking the question whether the independent variable axon type is significantly different and interacts with plasticity.

      Related points: 'AIS distance' in Figure 7 seems to refer to something else than distance from soma (Figure 1). Please clarify. What were the absolute distances from the soma for the AcD neurons and was this dependent on treatment?

      Reply: We appreciate reviewer's comment and in the revised version we will perform the analysis using two-way ANOVA.

      Regarding the terminology and definitions used in our manuscript, the "AIS distance" refers to the measurement between the start of the AIS and the axon initiating point, as depicted in Figure S4 of the manuscript. We adopted this parameter from the previous study by Grubb et al. (Grubb & Burrone, 2010), ensuring consistency in our investigation of AIS plasticity. For AcD neurons, where the axon branches out from the dendrite, we defined the AIS distance as the length between the start of the AIS and the border of the stem dendrite, as illustrated in Figure S4B.

      In Figure 1, the term "distance from soma" represents the length of stem dendrite and used for AcD and nonAcD neuron classification. As shown in Figure S4G, the absolute distance from the soma for AcD neurons is approximately 10 µm and remains consistent across treatments. We will explain these points more clearly in the revised manuscript.

      Minor comments:

      1. At p. 7 is stated that "The percentage of none-AcD forming collaterals at DIV1 is much lower than for AcD neurons" but statistical support is lacking. The conclusion in the next line is that "AcD neurons follow consensus development". That is puzzling given the difference just mentioned before. Please clarify. Reply: We will provide statistical support for comparing collateral formation between nonAcD and AcD neurons at DIV1.

      Regarding the second point concerning consensus development, we were referring to the general developmental sequence of AcD neurons, as described by Dotti et al. (see Dotti et al., 1988 for reference), where neurons typically first establish an axon and then dendrites. This sequence is not necessary related to collateral formation, which indeed differs between nonAcD and AcD neurons. The ability to form collaterals may come from local differences in microtubule (MT) and actin dynamics at AcD neuron precursor axons, but it does not alter the fact that AcD neurons initially establish an axon and subsequently dendrites. We will clarify it in the revised manuscript.

      A study not cited in this manuscript showed distinct dendritic morphologies (doi: 10.1073/pnas.1607548113) and AcD interneurons are different for their axonal arborization (doi: 10.1242/dev.202305). Differences in growth of branch arborization could hint to subtypes. Are the AcD and non-AcD neurons different in their adult morphology? A detailed account of the axonal and dendritic trees would strengthen the data.

      Reply: Thank you for pointing this out. We will include this citation. In the study by Hodapp et al., it was shown that AcD and nonAcD neurons exhibit similar dendritic morphology and do not differ in spine density, number of dendritic branches, and total dendritic length. However, in hippocampal AcD neurons, the AcD occupies 35% of the total basal dendrite length, which is larger than basal dendrites in nonAcD neurons, suggesting that AcD neurons do possess specific features in their dendritic trees.

      Regarding the axons of AcD neurons, there is currently no detailed study available, and it would be more appropriate to investigate neuronal connectivity through tracing studies in animals rather than in primary cultures. Therefore, this question falls outside the scope of the current manuscript.

      Some key references are not included here, and a number of these are mentioned above. In the context of the detailed MT and Rab3A vesicle and cargo transport studies, please acknowledge some of the pioneering work of Alan Peters revealing the ultrastructure of axons emerging from dendrites. See Figs. 5-7 in Peters, Proskauer and Kaiserman-Abramof IR., J Cell Biol 39:604 (1968). What is the identity of the neurons? It makes a difference if the cells are interneurons or pyramidal neurons, CA1 or CA3-like. For plasticity experiments the authors uses cells as independent measurements, but this is inflating the power. How many cultures were used?

      Reply: Thank you for pointing this out; we will include the suggested references in the revised manuscript. In our study, we focused on excitatory neurons from the hippocampus. We distinguished neuron types morphologically or with the inhibitory neuron marker GAD1. Identifying CA1, CA2, CA3, and DG subtypes in dissociated culture is more challenging, and this would be an interesting avenue to explore in an in vivo system. Here, we focused on fundamental cell biology aspects related to the AIS structure and its trafficking barrier function, which should be similar in all these neuron types. While there may be subtype-specific differences in AIS plasticity, investigating this is beyond the scope of our manuscript.

      For the plasticity experiments, we used a total of 3 independent cultures, from which we collected a comparable number of neurons. In response to the reviewer's concern, we will also plot the mean of each culture to illustrate the variability of our data points.

      Reviewer 4

      Major comments:

      1. A general limitation of this study is the low N for some critical experiments. In several experiments, individual cells become an N, therefore boosting the power of the analysis when in reality, due to the known heterogeneity of AIS length, position, and general cell morphology in vitro, the aim should be to compare means across animals / preparations, each consisting of a comparable number of individual cells. This is especially important for the analyses of COs, axo-axonic synapses and channel expression at the AIS. Reply: We would like to mention that this is a cell biological study where neurons are grown in dissociated cultures. To prepare one such culture, we typically use hippocampi from 6-8 E18 rat embryos, which are then mixed in one suspension before plating. The cells are then plated on coverslips in a 12-well plate format. When referring to replicates, for all experiments except for the longitudinal study of 5-day-long time-lapse imaging of developmental sequences (Figure 1), we used between 3 to 6 independent preparations. From each preparation, we took a comparable number of cells derived from 4-6 different coverslips. For each experiment, we measured more than a hundred cells, which is standard practice in the field. To address the issue with individual measurements, in the revised manuscript, we will additionally plot the means of each independent preparation.

      Such critical parameters as e.g. synaptic innervation at the AIS are investigated in a way that does not support the clear statements given, e.g. "The AIS of AcD neurons receives fewer inhibitory inputs" (Highlights statement) or "AcD neurons have less inhibitory synapses at the AIS" (header of Fig. 6). The overall number of analyzed cells is low (3 and 4 preparations, respectively and approximately 50-cells for each marker). The combination of a pre- and postsynaptic marker for inhibitory / excitatory neurons is a solid decision, but the analysis is not done based on the close approximation of these markers, in 3D, along an AIS, but rather in maxIPs and without any regard of whether pre-and postsynaptic markers are actually close to each other not. The expression of these markers alone just points towards the epitopes being expressed, but are they localized to each other in such a manner that they could form bona fide synapses? The methods are not totally clear on the image depth (tile scans with 5 µm in z will not provide the detail of information to resolve synapses, so how did the authors address the subcellular analysis here and for the CO and VGSCs?). And generally, were Nyquist conditions taken into consideration throughout the study? This can be clarified in text and does not require additional experiments.

      Reply: The overall number of cells for quantifying inhibitory synapses along the AIS was approximately 80 cells for each synaptic marker. To clarify this, we will indicate the number of cells in the figure legend of our revised manuscript and will additionally plot mean values across independent preparations.

      In the current manuscript, our main goal was to provide an initial quantitative measurement of AIS features in AcD neurons to see if they differ from nonAcD neurons. Hence, maxIPs are sufficient for this purpose as they summarize the 3D information. To make our study more comprehensive, following the reviewer's suggestion, we will conduct additional experiments to co-label pre- and post-inhibitory synapses at the AIS with VGAT and gephyrin, respectively. Then, we will image samples in 3D to measure the density as well as the distance between pre- and post-synapses at the AIS of AcD neurons and compare them to nonAcD neurons.

      The Nyquist condition was taken into consideration throughout the study. The pixel size of our data collection was 0.081 µm for the laser scanning microscope, as indicated in our methods section. Given the optical setup of our microscope and the fluorophores used to label target proteins (information available in the methods section of our manuscript), the acceptable Nyquist lateral sampling size (or pixel size, in other words) for confocal images is between 0.083 to 0.093 µm and 0.2 µm in the z-plane. In our data collection for laser scanning confocal images, the z-step size was 0.5 µm (see methods section of our manuscript), which is indeed undersampling the data. However, this should not significantly affect our analysis based on maxIPs. The new stainings with matched pre- and post-synaptic markers will be imaged with a smaller z-step (0.2 µm) and then reconstructed in 3D.

      The chapter on AIS plasticity is certainly an interesting addition to the study, but is a bit superficial, yet reaches strong conclusions ("More importantly, it further indicates that the AIS of AcD neurons is insensitive to activity changes"). This is based on un-physiological concentrations of KCl, and certainly not on network manipulation that truly tests synaptic activity. It also comes back to the 1st point above. A suggestion would be to edit the conclusion.

      Reply: KCl treatment globally depolarizes the membrane potential of neurons, leading to an increase in intracellular calcium via voltage-sensitive calcium channels as well as NMDA and AMPA receptors (Rienecker et al., 2020). This protocol has been used in several initial studies describing the plasticity of the AIS (see Evans et al., 2013, 2017; Grubb & Burrone, 2010; Jamann et al., 2021; Muir & Kittler, 2014; Wefelmeyer et al., 2015 for references). Moreover, as shown by Evans et al. and Grubb et al. (see Evans et al., 2013; Grubb & Burrone, 2010 for references), AIS plasticity is not abolished by TTX, which blocks Na+ channels, but is prevented by L-type calcium channel blockers. This suggests that the occurrence of AIS plasticity is independent of action potentials but more sensitive to calcium-related pathways downstream of membrane potential depolarization and post-synaptic activation. Hence, we believe our results are indicative of how the AIS would react when calcium signaling pathways are altered by activity levels. To address the reviewer's concern, we will focus our conclusion more on membrane potential depolarization and calcium signalling and edit out statements.

      As discussed above in response to reviewer #3, the quantification of AIS plasticity includes 3 independent preparations, comprising approximately 200 neurons in total. To prevent inflation of statistical power in the analysis, we will also plot the means and standard error of the mean (SEM) for each independent experiment and assess whether any differences persist.

      The rationale behind looking at the cisternal organelle (CO) in this study is outlined in the Introduction, where the authors state that "...... and is responsible for calcium handling". What is "calcium-handling" and where is the evidence cited? Furthermore, in the Results, they state that "...both compounds (VGSCs and COs) are critical for the AIS to regulate neuronal excitability". While this is the case for VGSCs, there is no conclusive evidence in the literature whether of not the CO is "critical" for neuronal excitability. In fact, a number of neurons have no CO in the AIS (as much as 50% of all AIS in mouse primary visual cortex for example do not express synpo at the AIS at all, Schlüter et al., 2017). The CO can therefore not be as critical for AP initiation as the authors state. Furthermore, the authors state that "AIS plasticity in excitatory neurons is triggered by calcium signaling". While certainly shown and adequately cited here, other factors (independent of calcium) can also play a role, therefore this statement is a bit absolute and should be edited accordingly.

      Reply: Thank you for constructive editorial suggestions. Regarding the first question on calcium handling, we were referring to Ca2+ storage and release mechanisms. Benedeczky et al. already showed the existence of SERCA-type Ca2+ pumps at the membrane of the cisternal organelle (CO) to demonstrate the involvement of Ca2+ sequestering/storage by the CO at the AIS (Benedeczky et al., 1994). Although indirect, Sánchez-Ponce et al. showed the presence of IP3R, which promotes Ca2+ release from internal storage, at the AIS and partially colocalizes with synaptodin (Sánchez-Ponce et al., 2011). This is also the same case for the Ca2+-binding protein annexin 6. Together, this evidence indicates a putative role of the CO in regulating Ca2+ dynamics (storage/release) at the AIS. Since Ca2+ levels have a significant impact on action potential generation and timing at the AIS (see Bender & Trussell, 2009; Yu et al., 2010 for references), and therefore should be strictly regulated, it is likely that the CO at the AIS is important for regulating neuronal excitability by controlling Ca2+ dynamics. However, as mentioned by the reviewer, there are no conclusive pieces of evidence showing the relationship between the CO and neuron excitability regulation. We will edit our statement accordingly.

      In contrast to the findings of Schlüter et al. (Schlüter et al., 2019), which were conducted in the mouse primary visual cortex, Sánchez-Ponce et al. showed that nearly 90% of hippocampal neurons contain synaptopodin, the CO marker protein, at the AIS. Furthermore, Schlüter et al. also demonstrated that in the other 50% of neurons containing COs at the AIS, the COs change size during visual deprivation, and their presence correlates with AIS length changes as well as eye-opening. These observations do suggest that COs are related to neuronal activity. However, this correlation and the formation of COs may be specific to neuro subtypes or require certain triggers. This is another interesting direction to explore, and we will include it in the discussion of the revised manuscript.

      Regarding the last point on Ca2+ and AIS plasticity, we were not excluding other factors that could potentially participate in AIS plasticity and will also discuss it in the revised version.

      The Introduction ends with the rationale of the study, namely that the authors seek to ....."provide a detailed characterization of the AIS, including its structural and functional properties....". Structure is investigated, but function is limited to the barrier function of the AIS. Since the authors provide no electrophysiology that would really dissect AIS function, I suggest to rephrase this part and focus on transport.

      Reply: As suggested, we will certainly emphasize the cargo barrier function of the AIS in AcD neurons in our introduction. But we would like to keep the term "AIS function", because it has already been nicely demonstrated electrophysiologically by previous studies that the plasticity effect of the AIS is very important for maintaining cellular homeostasis.

      The Discussion is more a list of future plans than a context to current data. The authors could move some of the new questions they identify into an "outlook" section at the end? Also, again have a critical look at the literature that is cited and which statements are accurate.

      For example, the 2nd phrase in the Discussion states that is was shown that AcD neurons have a "role in memory consolidation", referenced to Hodapp et al., 2022. However, that paper does not provide direct evidence of such a role for AcD neurons. The statement "Collectively, our data provide new insights into the development of AcD neurons and demonstrate that there are differences in AIS functionality between AcD and nonAcD neurons", is not correct. AIS function was not investigated outside of the axonal barrier, and here, the AcD and nonAcD cells do not differ. Also, although the Discussion is geared towards excitatory / glutamatergic neurons, it has been shown by others that interneurons show an even stronger trend to exhibit AcD morphology (work by the Wahle lab and others). This is not clear from the current text (also compare "...AcD neurons being a different subtype if pyramidal neuron").

      Further original publications should be included in the paragraph highlighting patch-clamp recordings (see above). In the same context, the statement "...showed that rapid AID plasticity occurs mainly in hippocampal dentate gyrus cells but not in principal excitatory neurons" is not accurate (see Kim, Kuba, Jamann and others). Generally, the Introduction and Discussion would benefit from a very clear distinction between studies done in vitro versus those done ex vivo or in vivo. This needs to be stated in the Abstract as well.

      Methods: For the imaging of synapses, the CO and VGSCs, it is not clear to me from the methods whether Nyquist conditions were applied to produce data that can support the quantification of nanoscale structures. Basing the analysis and interpretation of channel expression on fluorescence intensity profiles is problematic (variance in staining quality from samples to sample, lack of an internal standard). This should be noted in the text. In the text, the first two references given for "Induction of plasticity" do not reference the correct papers.

      Reply: Thank you for the valuable suggestions; we will incorporate them into the revised version of the manuscript. The structure will undoubtedly benefit from these improvements. We will also have a further look into our interpretation of the literatures as well as citations during our revision time frame.

      Regarding methods, as stated in response to the second point raised by this reviewer, we ensured that the Nyquist condition was adhered to throughout the study. The pixel size, z-step size, and optical setup of the microscopes used were already indicated in our methods section. With respect to Na+ channel staining, we were indeed aware of the potential issues posed by the experimental setup, and we will explicitly mention this in our revised manuscript. Additionally, we plan to measure other AIS scaffolding and membrane proteins that anchor Na+ channels to assess for potential changes, which could indirectly support our Na+ channel staining results.

      Finally, the text is lacking a discussion of limitations of the study, especially from a methodological point of view. In the Abstract/Summary already, the authors could point out that this is a pure in vitro study. Interestingly, to this day, AIS relocation during plasticity events has only been shown in cell culture systems, and not in vivo. Therefore, this needs to be put into context here - the chosen system is great for the type of imaging approach presented here, but may look at a type of AIS plasticity that is not seen in vivo.

      Reply: These are very good points. We will include the limitations of the study in the discussion. Indeed, due to technical and methodological challenges, the relocation of the AIS has not yet been demonstrated using animal models. However, in the study by Wefelmeyer et al. (Wefelmeyer et al., 2015), a similar relocation of the AIS resulting from chronic stimulation was observed in hippocampal organotypic slices, and it was accompanied by reduced excitability of neurons. Furthermore, in the same study, neurons with axons/AIS originating from basal dendrites were also mentioned. However, the measurement of chronic AIS plasticity in their study was not performed based on different classes of neuron types. Hence, our work complements their results. Given that the network connectivity of organotypic slices is much closer to real physiological conditions, it is likely that similar plastic adaptations could occur in vivo.

      __Minor comments __

      1. How does intrinsic neuronal activity play into developmental programs in vitro? Electrical activity in maturing neurons is a major part of how networks are shaped, and cells differentiate. This is not genetically encoded per se, but has been shown to be a major driving force of neuronal development in vivo. Is this reflected in the culture setting in any way? And have the authors considered testing early changes in activity patterns in their cultures to see whether AcDs and nonAcDs develop in similar percentages? To clarify, I am not asking for additional experiments. Reply: It is indeed a valid point that activity can influence neuronal morphology. Lehmann et al. (pre-print, doi: https://doi.org/10.1101/2023.07.31.551236) have recently demonstrated that increased network activity leads to more excitatory principal neurons adopting AcD morphology. However, our developmental data were collected from DIV0 to DIV5, an age at which dissociated neurons do not yet form functional excitatory synapses. Therefore, it is highly unlikely that network activity plays a role in shaping AcD neuron development during this early stage.

      The authors may want to add a bit of a technical discussion on the choice of KCl and TTX as triggers for plasticity, especially at the non-physiological concentrations offered here and elsewhere (15 mM KCl).

      Reply: We appreciate the reviewer for pointing this out. We will add this in our revised manuscript.

      Some key statements would benefit from citing the appropriate original literature (some examples would be the original work by Kole, Bender and Brette on the role of the AIS in AP initiation; original work by D'Este and Letterier on the dendritic and axonal scaffold using nanoscopy; work by Kim, Kuba and Jamann on AIS plasticity in vitro and in vivo that is critical for a more informed discussion of AIS plasticity here, and others)

      Reply: These are very good points, we will make suggested edits in the revised version.

      In the Introduction, the authors word their text explicitly for excitatory neurons. However, AIS plasticity has also been observed in interneurons (work by the Grubb lab for example), and axo-axonic synapses are in fact not all inhibitory - this is in important factor to consider given the embryonic state of the culture material. Does the DIV maturation reflect how axo-axonic synapses "switch" from excitatory to inhibitory in vivo (also see work of the Burrone lab)? Can the conclusions form the paper really be drawn based on this type of system?

      Reply: The AIS plasticity was indeed also observed in inhibitory interneurons (see Chand et al., 2015 for reference) and show opposite phenotypes compared to excitatory neurons. Also related to major comment #5, we did take the potential influence of AcD interneurons on the outcome of AIS plasticity experiment into consideration. Therefore, we also did a control experiment where inhibitory interneurons were labelled with GAD1 after chronic KCl treatment and these neurons were excluded from the analysis. Consistently, we got the same results that excitatory AcD neurons do not undergo chronic AIS plasticity. We will include this data in our revised manuscript. Further, in our current manuscript, we decided to focus on excitatory AcD neurons not only because they are the major functional unit in neuronal circuits, but also because the majority of the electrophysiological features were studied in excitatory AcD neurons. But we agree with the reviewer that AcD interneuron is definitely an interesting subject for follow up research in the future.

      As mentioned by the reviewer, Pan-Vazquez et al. (Pan-Vazquez et al., 2020) nicely showed that axo-axonic synapses made by GABAergic Chandelier cells (ChCs) depolarise neurons in brain slices obtained from P12-18 animals. But this effect is reversed in slices obtained from older animals (>>P40). Of note, their results were based on cortical neurons but not hippocampal neurons, hence cell type specificity should be considered. More importantly, previous study reported that this conversion or switch of GABAergic interneurons from excitatory to inhibitory occurs on hippocampal neurons in P12-13 animals (Leinekugel et al., 1995). In dissociated hippocampal neurons from E18 rat embryos, this switch of GABAergic interneurons takes place on DIV9-11 and completes on DIV19, which should have a comparable neuronal developmental stage as the P12-13 in in vivo system (see Ganguly et al., 2001 for reference). Therefore, the conclusion could be drawn in an in vitro system, but it certainly needs to be validated in in vivo system.

      The authors state that "less COs account for higher intrinsic excitability". Why is that the case?

      Reply: According to Yu et al. and Bender et al., Ca2+ transient at the AIS regulates the generation of action potentials (APs). For instance, reducing Ca2+ transient at the AIS by blocking Ca2+ channels with either mibefradil (a T-type Ca2+ channel antagonist) or Ni2+ (which blocks R- and T-type channels) decreased the number of spikelets evoked by EPSP-like current injection and delayed the timing of spike generation (please see Bender & Trussell, 2009 for details). Therefore, we speculate that Ca2+ transients are less affected when there are fewer cisternal organelles (COs) at the AIS, which could have a more direct impact on AP initiation. However, this is just our hypothesis, and there is indeed no direct evidence showing that COs regulate Ca2+ dynamics. We will discuss this in the revised manuscript.

      Last but not least, some very recent studies on AcD biology (Stevens, Thome, Lehmann, Wahle) is available online also on preprint servers and may provide additional support for the current study.

      Reply: We will check these pre-prints and include relevant information into the revised version.

    2. Note: This preprint has been reviewed by subject experts for Review Commons. Content has not been altered except for formatting.

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      Referee #1

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      Summary:

      The manuscript by Han et al. describes the structural and functional differences between pyramidal cells in which the axon emanates from a basal dendrite (axon-carrying dendrite cell, AcD cell) and cells with a 'canonical', i.e. somatic origin of the axon (nonAcD cells). They investigate how pyramidal neurons develop into AcD or nonAcD cells during cell development and characterize the cytoskeletal architecture in the two cell classes. Additionally, they examine whether and how axon initial segments, the most important structure for action potential generation, change upon varying activity of the neuron.

      The major claims of the paper are:

      i) The formation into an AcD or nonAcD cell is intrinsically encoded by a developmental program.

      ii) The cytoskeletal structure of AcD and nonAcD cells is similar. However, the stem dendrite inherent only to AcD cells is structurally more similar to an axon than to a dendrite

      iii) Axon initial segments of AcD cells contain less cisternal organelles and show less homeostatic plasticity The authors make use of primary cell cultures from rat hippocampus which are a standard model to investigate developmental questions of single cells and neuronal networks. The manuscript is well structured and in general reads well and the data and conclusions are convincing. I have only a few major comments.

      Major comments:

      The authors cite that acetylated and tyrosinated microtubules have different spatial and compartmental distribution in dendrites and axons and investigate the distribution in the AIS of nonAcD cells and AcD cells, as well as the stem dendrites. However, they just show one example of two different cells (Figure 2D and E) without any statistical analysis. Either, they should remove this part or provide a thorough quantification. The authors use EGFP-Rab3A vesicle to investigate anterograde transport at the axon and dendrites. They find a slightly faster transport of these vesicles at the AIS of AcD cells and conclude the axonal cargos in general are transported faster across the AIS in AcD cells. In my opinion, this generalization based on one type of vesicle is too far-fetched. As stated above, the manuscript is well structured and generally reads well. However, throughout the text there are always small mistakes that should be corrected by careful proofreading. Examples are

      Page 6, last paragraph: ...AcD neurons generated [a] collateral...

      Page 24, last paragraph: ... line was then drew [drawn] along ...

      Page 24, last paragraph: Neurons with ... was consider [were considered] as ...

      Page 25, first paragraph: Antibodies ... was [were]

      Page 41, (E) Percentage of AcD neurons [that] generate [a] collateral or bifurcate

      Minor comments:

      In the introduction, the authors describe how synaptic inputs are received at the dendrites and propagated to the soma in the form of membrane depolarizations. They should add 'excitatory' to synaptic inputs or also describe the impact of inhibitory synaptic inputs at the dendrites.

      In my opinion, Figure 2 could be presented in a slightly better way. The lower part of panel A better fits to panel B, which is next to the upper part of panel A. I understand that the authors systematically present their data first for nonAcD cells and then for AcD cells. However, in this special case it is a little bit more difficult to read the current figure in that order.

      The results displayed in Figure 4 are presented in a slightly confusing order. The authors jump from 4D to 4G, then to 4I and 4E, 4H, 4F. Similarly, 4M and N are addressed before 4O and P to finally get to 4K and L. It would be beneficial to present and address the data in a stringent way.

      Significance

      General assessment:

      This study addresses a very important and timely question about structural and functional cell diversity of cortical pyramidal neurons. The specific function of AcD cells is currently mostly unknown, which is astonishing given their abundance of 15-50% of pyramidal neurons in cortical structures.

      Advance:

      This study presents a significant step forward in comprehending the structural and functional relationship of signal computation in single neurons.

      Audience:

      The study will be important for a wide readership working on very different levels including cellular, network, and behavioral neuroscience.

    1. REFERENCES(1) Plastics Europe. Compelling Facts About Plastics 2009: An analysisof European plastics production, demand and recovery for 2008; PlasticsEurope: 2009. https://plasticseurope.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/2009-Compelling-facts.pdf (accessed 2021-01-06).(2) Andrady, A. L.; Neal, M. A. Applications and Societal Benefits ofPlastics. Philos. Trans. R. Soc. B 2009, 364 (1526), 1977−1984.Figure 4. UV−vis transmittance curves of melt-pressed copolyesterfilms (ca. 0.15 mm thick).ACS Applied Polymer Materials pubs.acs.org/acsapm Articlehttps://doi.org/10.1021/acsapm.2c02161ACS Appl. Polym. Mater. 2023, 5, 2144−21532151

      Another way the paper exhibits credibility is correctly citing their sources in APA format, the correct style for scientific articles. There are 42 articles referenced in the article to back up their research and findings. Each one has a corresponding number next to it and within the body of the paper that links the citation to the place referenced. Check out this link for more information about APA citation https://owl.purdue.edu/owl/research_and_citation/apa_style/apa_formatting_and_style_guide/general_format.html

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, Sang et al. proposed a pair of IR60b-expressing pharyngeal neurons in Drosophila use IR25a, IR76b, and IR60b channels to detect high Na+ and limit its consumption. Some of the key findings that support this thesis are: 1) animals that lacked any one of these channels - or with their IR60b-expressing neurons selectively silenced - showed much reduced rejection of high Na+, but restored rejection when these channels were reintroduced back in the IR60b neurons; 2) animals with TRPV artificially expressed in their IR60b neurons rejected capsaicin-laced food whereas WT did not; 3) IR60b-expressing neurons exhibited increased Ca2+ influx in response to high Na+ and such response went away when animals lacked any of the three channels.

      Strengths:

      The experiments were thorough and well designed. The results are compelling and support the main claim. The development and the use of the DrosoX two-choice assay put forward for a more quantitative and automatic/unbiased assessment for ingestion volume and preference.

      Weaknesses:

      There are a few inconsistencies with respect the the exact role by which IR60b neurons limit high salt consumption and the contribution of external (labellar) high-salt sensors in regulating high salt consumption. These weaknesses do not significantly impact the main conclusion, however.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this paper, Sang et al. set out to identify gustatory receptors involved in salt taste sensation in Drosophila melanogaster. In a two-choice assay screen of 30 Ir mutants, they identified that Ir60b is required for avoidance of high salt. In addition, they demonstrate that activation of Ir60b neurons is sufficient for gustatory avoidance using either optogenetics or TRPV1 to specifically activate Ir60b neurons. Then, using tip recordings of labellar gustatory sensory neurons and proboscis extension response behavioral assays in Ir60b mutants, the authors demonstrate that Ir60b is dispensable for labellar taste neuron responses to high salt and the suppression of proboscis extension by high salt. Since external gustatory receptor neurons (GRNs) are not implicated, they look at Poxn mutants, which lack external chemosensory sensilla but have intact pharyngeal GRNs. High salt avoidance was reduced in Poxn mutants but was still greater than Ir60b mutants, suggesting that pharyngeal gustatory sensory neurons alone are sufficient for high salt avoidance. The authors use a new behavioral assay to demonstrate that Ir60b mutants ingest a higher volume of sucrose mixed with high salt than control flies do, suggesting that the action of Ir60b is to limit high salt ingestion. Finally, they identify that Ir60b functions within a single pair of gustatory sensory neurons in the pharynx, and that these neurons respond to high salt but not bitter tastants.

      Strengths:

      A great strength of this paper is that it rigorously corroborates previously published studies that have implicated specific Irs in salt taste sensation. It further introduces a new role for Ir60b in limiting high salt ingestion, demonstrating that Ir60b is necessary and sufficient for high salt avoidance and convincingly tracing the action of Ir60b to a particular subset of gustatory receptor neurons. Overall, the authors have achieved their aim by identifying a new gustatory receptor involved in limiting high salt ingestion. They use rigorous genetic, imaging, and behavioral studies to achieve this aim, often confirming a given conclusion with multiple experimental approaches. They have further done a great service to the field by replicating published studies and corroborating the roles of a number of other Irs in salt taste sensation. An aspect of this study that merits further investigation is how the same gustatory receptor neurons and Ir in the pharynx can be responsible for regulating the ingestion of both appetitive (sugar) and aversive tastants (high salt).

      A previous report published in eLife from John Carlson’s lab (Joseph et al, 2017) showed that the Ir60b GRN in the pharynx responds to sucrose resulting in sucrose repulsion. Thus, stimulation of this pharyngeal GRN results in gustatory avoidance only, not both attraction and avoidance. (lines 205-207)

      Weaknesses:

      There are several weaknesses that, if addressed, could greatly improve this work.

      (1) The authors combine the results and discussion but provide a very limited interpretation of their results. More discussion of the results would help to highlight what this paper contributes, how the authors interpret their results, and areas for future study.

      We agree and have now separated the Results and Discussion, and in so doing have greatly expanded discussion of the results.

      (2) The authors rename previously studied populations of labellar GRNs to arbitrary letters, which makes it difficult to understand the experiments and results in some places. These GRN populations would be better referred to according to the gustatory receptors they are known to express.

      One of the corresponding authors (Craig Montell) introduced this alternative GRN nomenclature in a review in 2021: Montell, C. (Drosophila sensory receptors—a set of molecular Swiss Army Knives. Genetics 217, 1-34) (Montell, 2021). We are not fans of referring to different classes of GRNs based on the receptors that they express since it is not obvious which receptors to use. For example, the GRNs that respond to bitter compounds all express multiple GR co-receptors. The same is true for the GRNs that respond to sugars. The former system of referring to GRNs simply as sugar, bitter, salt and water GRNs is also not ideal since the repertoire of chemicals that stimulates each class is complex. For example, the Class A GRNs (formerly sugar GRNs) are also activated by low Na+, glycerol, fatty acids, and acetic acid, while the B GRNs (former bitter GRNs) are also stimulated by high Na+, acids, polyamines, and tryptophan. In addition, there are five classes of GRNs. At first mention of the Class A—E GRNs, we mention the most commonly used former nomenclature of sugar, bitter, salt and water GRNs. In addition, for added clarify, we now also include a mention of one of the receptors that mark each class. (lines 51-59)

      (3) The conclusion that GRNs responsible for high salt aversion may be inhibited by those that function in low salt attraction is not well substantiated. This conclusion seems to come from the fact that overexpression of Ir60b in salt attraction and salt aversion sensory neurons still leads to salt aversion, but there need not be any interaction between these two types of sensory neurons if they act oppositely on downstream circuits.

      We did not make this claim.

      (4) The authors rely heavily on a new Droso-X behavioral apparatus that is not sufficiently described here or in the previous paper the authors cite. This greatly limits the reader's ability to interpret the results.

      We expanded the description of the apparatus in the Droso-X assay section of the Materials and Methods. (lines 588-631)

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Sang et al. successfully demonstrate that a set of single sensory neurons in the pharynx of Drosophila promotes avoidance of food with high salt concentrations, complementing previous findings on Ir7c neurons with an additional internal sensing mechanism. The experiments are well-conducted and presented, convincingly supporting their important findings and extending the understanding of internal sensing mechanisms. However, a few suggestions could enhance the clarity of the work.

      Strengths:

      The authors convincingly demonstrate the avoidance phenotype using different behavioral assays, thus comprehensively analyzing different aspects of the behavior. The experiments are straightforward and well-contextualized within existing literature.

      Weaknesses:

      Discussion

      While the authors effectively relate their findings to existing literature, expanding the discussion on the surprising role of Ir60b neurons in both sucrose and salt rejection would add depth. Additionally, considering Yang et al. 2021's (https://doi.org/10.1016/j.celrep.2021.109983) result that Ir60b neurons activate feeding-promoting IN1 neurons, the authors should discuss how this aligns with their own findings.

      Yang et al. demonstrated that the activation of Ir60b neurons can trigger the activation of IN1 neurons akin to pharyngeal multimodal (PM) neurons, potentially leading to enhanced feeding (Yang et al, 2021). However, our research reveals a specific pattern of activation for Ir60b neurons. Instead of being generalists, they are specialized for certain sugars, such as sucrose and high salt. Consequently, while Ir60b GRNs activate IN1 neurons, we contend that there are other neurons in the brain responsible for inhibiting feeding. (lines 412-417)

      Lines 187: The discussion primarily focuses on taste sensillae outside the labellum, neglecting peg-type sensillae on the inner surface. Clarification on whether these pegs contribute to the described behaviors and if the Poxn mutants described also affect the pegs would strengthen the discussion.

      We added the following to the Discussion section. “We also found that the requirement for Ir60b appears to be different when performing binary liquid capillary assay (DrosoX), versus solid food binary feeding assays. When we employed the DrosoX assay to test mutants that were missing salt aversive GRNs in labellar bristles but still retained functional Ir60b GRNs, the flies behaved the same as wild-type flies (e.g. Figure 3J and 3L). However, using solid food binary assays, Poxn mutants, which are missing labellar taste bristles but retain Ir60b GRNs (LeDue et al, 2015), displayed repulsion to high salt food that was intermediate between control flies and the Ir60b mutant (Figure 2J). Poxn mutants retain taste pegs (LeDue et al., 2015), and these hairless taste organs become exposed to food only when the labial palps open. We suggest that there are high-salt sensitive GRNs associated with taste pegs, which are accessed when the labellum contacts a solid substrate, but not when flies drink from the capillaries used in DrosoX assays. This explanation would also account for the findings that the Ir60b mutant is indifferent to 300 mM NaCl in the DrosoX assay (Figure 3B), but prefers 1 mM sucrose alone over 300 mM NaCl and 5 mM sucrose in the solid food binary assay (Figure 1B).”. (lines 430-444)

      In line 261 the authors state: "We attempted to induce salt activation in the I-type sensilla by ectopically expressing Ir60b, similar to what was observed with Ir56b 8; however, this did not generate a salt receptor (Figures S6A)"

      An obvious explanation would be that these neurons are missing the identified necessary co-receptors Ir76b and Ir25a. The authors should discuss here if the Gr33a neurons they target also express these co-receptors, if yes this would strengthen their conclusion that an additional receptor might be missing.

      We clarified this point in the Discussion section as follows, “An open question is the subunit composition of the pharyngeal high Na+ receptor, and whether the sucrose/glucose and Na+ receptors in the Ir60b GRN are the same or distinct. Our results indicate that the high salt sensor in the Ir60b GRN includes IR25a, IR60b and IR76b since all three IRs are required in the pharynx for sensing high levels of NaCl. I-type sensilla do not elicit a high salt response, and we were unable to induce salt activation in I-type sensilla by ectopically expressing Ir60b, under control of the Gr33a-GAL4. This indicates that IR25a, IR60b and IR76b are insufficient for sensing high Na+. The inability to confer a salt response by ectopic expression of Ir60b was not due to absence of Ir25a and Ir76b in Gr33a GRNs since Gr33a and Gr66a are co-expressed (Moon et al, 2009), and Gr66a GRNs express Ir25a and Ir76b (Li et al, 2023). Thus, the high salt receptor in Ir60b GRNs appears to require an additional subunit. Given that Na+ and sugars are structurally unrelated, we suggest that the Na+ and sucrose/glucose receptors do not include the identical set of subunits, or that that they activate a common receptor through disparate sites”. (lines 464-477)

      Methods

      The description of the Droso-X assay seems to be missing some details. Currently, it is not obvious how the two-choice is established. Only one capillary is mentioned, I assume there were two used? Also, the meaning of the variables used in the equation (DrosoX and DrosoXD) are not explained.

      We expanded the description of the apparatus in the Droso-X assay section of the Materials and Methods. (lines 588-631)

      The description of the ex-vivo calcium imaging prep. is unclear in several points:

      (1) It is lacking information on how the stimulus was applied (was it manually washed in? If so how was it removed?).

      We expanded the description of the apparatus in the ex vivo calcium imaging section of the Materials and Methods. (lines 682-716)

      (2) The authors write: "A mild swallow deep well was prepared for sample fixation." I assume they might have wanted to describe a "shallow well"?

      We deleted the word “deep.”.(line 691)

      (3) "...followed by excising a small portion of the labellum in the extended proboscis region to facilitate tastant access to pharyngeal organs." It is not clear to me how one would excise a small portion of the labellum, the labellum depicts the most distal part of the proboscis that carries the sensillae and pegs. Did the authors mean to say that they cut a part of the proboscis?

      Yes. We changed the sentence to “…followed by excising a small portion of the extended proboscis to facilitate tastant access to the pharyngeal organs.”.(lines 693)-695

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      In this manuscript, Sang et al. proposed a pair of IR60b-expressing pharyngeal neurons in Drosophila use IR25a, IR76b, and IR60b channels to detect high Na+ and limit its consumption. Some of the key findings that support this thesis are: 1) animals that lacked any one of these channels - or with their IR60b-expressing neurons selectively silenced - showed much reduced rejection of high Na+, but restored rejection when these channels were reintroduced back in the IR60b neurons; 2) animals with TRPV artificially expressed in their IR60b neurons rejected capsaicin-laced food whereas WT did not; 3) IR60b-expressing neurons exhibited increased Ca2+ influx in response to high Na+ and such response went away when animals lacked any of the three channels. In general, I find the collective evidence presented by the authors convincing. But I feel the MS can benefit from having a discussion session and a few simple experiments. Below I listed some inconsistencies I hope the authors can address or at least discuss.

      We have now added a Discussion section, and expanded the discussion.

      (1) The role of IR60b neurons on suppressing PER appeared inconsistent. On the one hand, optogenetic activation of these neurons suppressed PER (Fig 1D), on the other hand, IR60b mutants were as competent to suppress PER in response to high salt as WT (Fig 2G). Are pharyngeal neurons expected to modulate PER? It might be worth including a retinal-free or genotype control to ascertain the PER suppression exhibited by IR60b>CsChrimson is genuine.

      Please note that Figure 2G is now Figure 2H.

      Our interpretation is that activation of aversive GRNs by high salt either in labellar bristles or in the pharynx is sufficient to inhibit repulsion to high salt. Consistent with this conclusion, optogenetic activation of Ir60b GRNs, which are specific to the pharynx, is sufficient to reduce the PER to sucrose containing food (Figure 1D). However, mutation of Ir60b has no impact on the PER to sucrose plus high (300 mM) NaCl since the high-salt activated GRNs in labellar bristles are not impaired by the Ir60b mutation. In contrast, Ir25a and Ir76b are required in both labellar bristles and in the pharynx to reject high salt. As a consequence, mutation of either Ir25a or Ir76b impairs the repulsion to high salt. Thus, there is no inconsistency between the optogenetics and PER results. We clarified this point in the Discussion section. In terms of controls for IR60b>CsChrimson, we show that UAS-CsChrimson alone or UAS-CsChrimson in combination with the Gr5a driver has no impact on the PER (Figure 1D). In addition, we now include a retinal free control (Figure 1D). These findings provide the key genetic controls and are described in the Results section. (lines 167-170)

      (2) The role of labellar high-salt sensors in regulating salt intake appeared inconsistent. On the one hand, they appeared to have a role in limiting high salt consumption because poxn mutants were significantly more receptive to high salt than WT (Fig. 2J). On the other hand, selectively restoring IR76b or IR25a in only the IR60b neurons in these mutants - thus leaving the labellar salt sensors still defective - reverted the flies to behave like WT when given a choice between sucrose vs. sucrose+high salt (Fig 3J, L).

      We now offer an explanation for these seemingly conflicting results in the Discussion section. When we employed the DrosoX assay with mutants with functional Ir60b GRNs, but were missing salt aversive GRNs in labellar bristles, the flies behaved the same as control flies (e.g. Figure 3J and L). However, using solid food binary assays, Poxn mutants, which are missing labellar taste bristles but retain Ir60b GRNs (LeDue et al., 2015), display aversion high salt food intermediate between control and Ir60b mutant flies (Figure 2J). Poxn mutants retain taste pegs (LeDue et al., 2015), which are exposed to food substrates only when the labial palps open. We suggest that the taste pegs harbor high salt sensitive GRNs, and they may be exposed to solid substrates, but not to the liquid in capillary tubes used in the DrosoX assays. This explanation would also account for the findings that the Ir60b mutant is indifferent to 300 mM NaCl in the DrosoX assay (Figure 3B), but prefers 1 mM sucrose alone over 300 mM NaCl and 5 mM sucrose in the solid food binary assay (Figure 1B). (lines 433-444)

      (3) The behavior sensitivity of IR60b mutant to high salt again appeared somewhat inconsistent when assessed in the two different choice assays. IR60b mutant flies were indifferent to 300 mM NaCl when assayed with DrosoX (Fig 3A, B) but were clearly still sensitive to 300 mM NaCl when assayed with "regular" assay - they showed much reduced preference for 5 mM sucrose over 1 mM sucrose when the 5 mM sucrose was adulterated with 300 mM NaCl (Fig 1B).

      The explanation provided above may also account for the findings that the Ir60b mutant is indifferent to 300 mM NaCl in the DrosoX assay (Figure 3B), but not when selecting between 300 mM NaCl and 5 mM sucrose versus 1 mM sucrose in the solid food binary assay (Figure 1B). Alternatively, the different behavioral responses might be due to the variation in sucrose concentrations in each of these two assays, which employed 5 mM sucrose in the solid food binary assay, as opposed to 100 mM sucrose in the DrosoX assay. This disparity in attractive valence between these two concentrations of sucrose might consequently impact feeding amount and preference. This point is now also included in the Discussion section. (lines 441-449)

      (4) Given the IR60b neurons exhibited clear IR60b/IR25a/IR76b-dependent sucrose sensitivity, too, I am curious how the various mutant animals behave when given a choice between 100 mM sorbitol vs. 100 mM sorbitol + 300 mM NaCl, a food choice assay not complicated by the presence of sucrose. Similarly, I am curious if the Ca2+ response of IR60 neurons differs significantly when presented with 100 mM sucrose vs. when presented with 100 mM sucrose + 300 mM NaCl. In principle, the magnitude for the latter should be significantly larger than the former as animals appeared to be capable of discriminating these two choices solely relying on their IR60b neurons.

      To investigate the aversion induced by high salt in the absence of a highly attractive sugar, such as sucrose, we combined 300 mM salt with 100 mM sorbitol, which is a tasteless but nutritive sugar (Burke & Waddell, 2011; Fujita & Tanimura, 2011). Using two-way choice assays, we found that the Ir25a, Ir60b, and Ir76b mutants exhibited substantial reductions in high salt avoidance (Figure 3—figure supplement 2A). In addition, we performed DrosoX assays using 100 mM sorbitol alone, or sorbitol mixed with 300 mM NaCl. Sorbitol alone provoked less feeding than sucrose since it is a tasteless sugar (Figure 3—figure supplement 2B and C). Nevertheless, addition of high salt to the sorbitol reduced food consumption (Figure 3—figure supplement 2B and C). (lines 300-308)

      We also conducted a comparative analysis of the Ca2+ responses within the Ir60b GRN, examining its reaction to various stimuli, including 100 mM sucrose alone, 300 mM NaCl alone, and a combination of 100 mM sucrose and 300 mM NaCl. We found that the Ca2+ responses were significantly higher when we exposed the Ir60b GRN to 300 mM NaCl alone, compared with the response to 100 mM sucrose alone (Figure 4—figure supplement 1D). However, the GCaMP6f responses was not higher when we presented 100 mM sucrose with 300 mM NaCl, compared with the response to 300 mM NaCl alone (Figure 4—figure supplement 1D). (lines 360-367)

      Minor issues

      (1) The labels of sucrose concentration on Figure 2D were flipped.

      This has been corrected.

      (2) The phrasing of the sentence that begins in line 196 (i.e., "This suggests the internal sensor ...") is not as optimal.

      We changed the sentence to, “We found that the aversive behavior to high salt was reduced in the Poxn mutants relative to the control (Figure 2J), consistent with previous studies demonstrating roles for GRNs in labellar bristles in high salt avoidance (Jaeger et al, 2018; McDowell et al, 2022; Zhang et al, 2013).”. (lines 217-219)

      (3) In Line 231, I am not sure why the authors think ectopic expressing IR60b in labellar neurons would allow them to become activated by Na+. It seems highly unlikely to me, especially given IR60b also plays a role in sensing sugar.

      We added the following paragraph to the Discussion addressing this point, “An open question is the subunit composition of the pharyngeal high Na+ receptor, and whether the sucrose/glucose and Na+ receptors in the Ir60b GRN are the same or distinct. Our results indicate that the high salt sensor in the Ir60b GRN includes IR25a, IR60b and IR76b since all three IRs are required in the pharynx for sensing high levels of NaCl. I-type sensilla do not elicit a high salt response, and we were unable to induce salt activation in I-type sensilla by ectopically expressing Ir60b, under control of the Gr33a-GAL4. This indicates that IR25a, IR60b and IR76b are insufficient for sensing high Na+. The inability to confer a salt response by ectopic expression of Ir60b was not due to absence of Ir25a and Ir76b in Gr33a GRNs since Gr33a and Gr66a are co-expressed (Moon et al., 2009), and Gr66a GRNs express Ir25a and Ir76b (Li et al., 2023). Thus, the high salt receptor in Ir60b GRNs appears to require an additional subunit. Given that Na+ and sugars are structurally unrelated, we suggest that the Na+ and sucrose/glucose receptors do not include the identical set of subunits, or that that they activate a common receptor through disparate sites.”. (lines 464-477)

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Line 41, acutely excessive salt ingestion can lead to death, not just health issues

      We now state that, “consumption of excessive salt can contribute to various health issues in mammals, including hypertension, osteoporosis, gastrointestinal cancer, autoimmune diseases, and can lead to death.”. (lines 41-43)

      Line 46, delete the comma after flies

      Done. (line 47)

      Lines 51-56: This description is unnecessarily confusing and does not cite proper sources. Renaming these GRNs arbitrarily can only create confusion, plus this description lacks nuance. If E GRNs are Ir94e positive, this description is out of date. Furthermore, If D GRNs are ppk23 and Gr66a positive then they will respond to both bitter and high salt.

      Papers to consult: https://elifesciences.org/articles/37167 10.1016/j.cell.2023.04.038

      We have now added citations. We prefer the A—E nomenclature, which was introduced in a 2021 Genetics review by one of the authors of this manuscript (Montell) (Montell, 2021) since naming different classes of GRNs on the basis of markers or as sweet, bitter, salt and water GRNs is misleading and an oversimplification. We cite the Genetics 2021 review, and for added clarity include both types of former names (markers and sweet, bitter, salt and water). Class D GRNs are not marked by Gr66a. The eLife reference cited above provided the initial rationale for stating that Class E GRNs are marked by Ir94e and activated by low salt. According to the Taisz et al reference (Cell 2023), the Class E GRNs, which are marked by Ir94e, are also activated by pheromones, which we now mention (Taisz et al, 2023). (lines 51-59)

      Line 62, E GRNs are not required for low salt behaviors

      We do not state that E GRNs are required for low salt behaviors, only that they sense low Na+ levels. (line 58)

      Line 70-81 - Great deal of emphasis on labellar GRNs but then no mention of how pharyngeal GRNs fit into categories A-E

      We devote the following paragraph to pharyngeal GRNs. We do not mention how they fit in with the A—E categories because it is not clear.

      “In addition to the labellum and taste bristles on other external structures, such as the tarsi, fruit flies are endowed with hairless sensilla on the surface of the labellum (taste pegs), and three internal taste organs lining the pharynx, the labral sense organ (LSO), the ventral cibarial sense organ (VCSO), and the dorsal cibarial sense organ (DCSO), which also function in the decision to keep feeding or reject a food (Chen & Dahanukar, 2017, 2020; LeDue et al., 2015; Nayak & Singh, 1983; Stocker, 1994). A pair of GRNs in the LSO express a member of the gustatory receptor family, Gr2a, and knockdown of Gr2a in these GRNs impairs the avoidance to slightly aversive levels of Na+ (Kim et al, 2017). Pharyngeal GRNs also promote the aversion to bitter tastants, Cu2+, L-canavanine, and bacterial lipopolysaccharides (Choi et al, 2016; Joseph et al., 2017; Soldano et al, 2016; Xiao et al, 2022). Other pharyngeal GRNs are stimulated by sugars and contribute to sugar consumption (Chen & Dahanukar, 2017; Chen et al, 2021; LeDue et al., 2015). Remarkably, a pharyngeal GRN in each of the two LSOs functions in the rejection rather the acceptance of sucrose (Joseph et al., 2017).”. (lines 74-89)

      Line 89, aversive --> aversion

      We changed this part.

      Line 90, gain of aversion capsaicin avoidance suggests they are sufficient for avoidance, not essential for avoidance.

      We changed “essential” to “sufficient.”. (line 100)

      Line 104, what are you recording from here? Labellar or pharyngeal GRNs

      We added “S-type and L-type sensilla” to the sentence. (line 119)

      Line 107, How are A GRNS marked with tdTomato? It is important to mention how you are defining A GRNs.

      We modified the sentence as follows: “Using Ir56b-GAL4 to drive UAS-mCD8::GFP, we also confirmed that the reporter was restricted to a subset of Class A GRNs, which were marked with LexAop-tdTomato expressed under the control of the Gr64f-LexA (Figure 1—figure supplement 1D—F).”. (lines 120-123)

      Line 124, should read "concentrated as sea water."

      We made the change. (line 142)

      Line 125, I am not sure what is meant by "alarm neurons"

      We changed “additional pain or alarm neurons” to “nociceptive neurons.”. (line 144)

      Line 141, Are you definitely A GRNs as only labellar GRNs, i.e. the Gr5a-GAL4 pattern with labellar plus few pharyngeal GRNs? Or are the defining it as Gr64f-GAL4 (i.e. labellar plus many pharyngeal GRNs)

      We refer to the Class A—E GRNs as labellar GRNs. Therefore, in this instance, we removed the reference to A GRNs and B GRNs, and simply mention the drivers that we used (Gr5a-GAL4 and Gr66a-GAL4) to express UAS-CsChrimson. The modified sentence is, “As controls we drove UAS-CsChrimson under control of either the Gr5a-GAL4 or the Gr66a-GAL4.”. (lines 51-59, 160-161)

      Line 180, labellar hairs--> labellar taste bristles

      We made the change. (line 204)

      Line 190, possess only --> only possess

      We made the change. (line 216)

      Line 202, Should this read increased?

      Yes. We changed “reduced” to “increased.”. (line 225)

      Line 206, The information provided here and in reference 47 was not sufficient for me to understand how the Droso-X system works and whether it has been validated. Better diagrams and much more description is required for the reader to understand this system and assess its validity

      We now explain that the DrosoX “system consists of a set of five separately housed flies, each of which is exposed to two capillary tubes with different liquid food options. One capillary contained 100 mM sucrose and the other contained 100 mM sucrose mixed with 300 mM NaCl. The volume of food consumed from each capillary is then monitored automatically over the course of 6 hours and recorded on a computer.”. (lines 238-243)

      Line 218-219, It would be helpful to expand on this to explain how the previous paper detected no difference. Is this because the contact time with the food is the same but the rate of ingestion is slower?

      Yes. This is correct. We now clarify this point by stating that, “In a prior study, it was observed that the repulsion to high salt exhibited by the Ir60b mutant was indistinguishable from wild-type (Joseph et al., 2017). Specifically, the flies were presented with drop of liquid (sucrose plus salt) at the end of a probe, and the Ir60b mutant flies fed on the food for the same period of time as control flies (Joseph et al., 2017). However, this assay did not discern whether or not the volume of the high salt-containing food consumed by the Ir60b mutant flies was reduced relative to control flies. Therefore, to assess the volume of food ingested, we used the DrosoX system, which we recently developed (Figure 3—figure supplement 1A) (Sang et al, 2021). This system consists of a set of five separately housed flies, each of which is exposed to two capillary tubes with different liquid food options. One capillary contained 100 mM sucrose and the other contained 100 mM sucrose mixed with 300 mM NaCl. The volume of food consumed from each capillary was then monitored automatically over the course of 6 hours and recorded on a computer. We found that control flies consuming approximately four times more of the 100 mM sucrose than the sucrose mixed with 300 mM NaCl (Figure 3A). In contrast, the Ir25a, Ir60b, and Ir76b mutants consumed approximately two-fold less of the sucrose plus salt (Figure 3A). Consequently, they ingested similar amounts of the two food options (Figure 3B; ingestion index). Thus, while the Ir60b mutant and control flies spend similar amounts of time in contact with high salt-containing food when it is the only option (Joseph et al., 2017), the mutant consumes considerably less of the high salt food when presented with a sucrose option without salt.”. (lines 226-251)

      Lines 231-235, Is this evidence for this, that Ir60b expression in the Ir25a or Ir76b pattern will induce high salt responses in the labellum? You should elaborate on this to clearly state what you mean rather than implying it. I do not think that overexpression of one Ir is enough evidence for this sweeping conclusion.

      We agree. We eliminated this point. (lines 227-232)

      Lines 261-263, Please elaborate here, how did you target the I-type sensilla and where are these neurons? So they already express Ir76b and Ir25a?

      We now explain in the Results that, “We attempted to induce salt activation in the I-type sensilla by ectopically expressing Ir60b, under control of the Gr33a-GAL4. Gr33a is co-expressed with Gr66a (Moon et al., 2009), which has been shown to be co-expressed Ir25a and Ir76b (Li et al., 2023). When we performed tip recordings from I7 and I10 sensilla, we did not observe a significant increase in action potentials in response to 300 mM NaCl (Figure 4—figure supplement 1A), indicating that ectopic expression of Ir60b in combination with Ir25a and Ir76b is not sufficient to generate a high salt receptor.”. (lines 324-330)

      Lines 300-303, The discussion needs to be greatly expanded. What is the proposed mechanism by which the same neurons/receptors can inhibit sucrose and high salt feeding? What is the author's interpretation of what this study adds to our understanding of taste aversion?

      We have now added a Discussion section and greatly expanded the discussion.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      In line 73 there is a typo in "esophagus"

      We changed this part.

      In line 331, the use of a mixture of sucrose and "saponin" seems to be a mistake; "NaCl" is likely intended.

      We made the correction. (lines 546 and 640)

      On several occasions, the authors refer to the pharynx as a taste organ (for example 1st sentence of the abstract). I am not sure this is correct, the actual pharyngeal taste organs are the LSO, DSCO, and VSCO which are located in the pharynx.

      We made the corrections. (lines 24, 90, 92, 93, and 356)

      In line 155 the authors refer to Ir25a and Ir76b as "broadly tuned". I think it is not correct to refer to co-receptors this way, I'd suggest to just call them co-receptors.

      We made the correction. (lines 177-178)

      In line 182, stating "Gr2a is also expressed in the proboscis" is unclear. Clarify whether it refers to sensillae, pharyngeal taste organs, etc.

      We clarified it refers to pharyngeal taste organs. (lines 206-207)

      Line 253: "These finding imply that all three Irs are coexpressed in the pharynx." "The pharynx" is very unspecific, did the authors mean to say "the same neuron"?

      We now clarify by saying “in the Ir60b GRN in the pharynx.”. (line 317)

      Figures & Legends

      I found it confusing that the same color scale is being reused for different panels with different meanings repeatedly and in inconsistent ways. For example in Figure 2, red and blue are being used for Ir25a² mutants, while blue is also being used for Gr64f-Gal4 and S type sensilla. It is also not easily visible nor mentioned in the caption which of the 3 color scales presented belong to which panels.

      We modified the colors in the figures so that they are used in a consistent way. We now also define the colors in the legends.

      In Figure 2 F-I, indicating the stimulus sequence in each panel would enhance clarity. The color scale in Figure 3 could benefit from explicit explanations of different shades in the caption for easier interpretation.

      For example: "The ingestion of (a, dark color) 100 mM sucrose alone and (b, light color) in combination with 300 mM"

      We made the suggested modification.

      In Figure 4a the authors highlight that Ir76b and Ir25a label 2 neurons in the LSO. Did the imaging in 4c also capture the second cell, and if so did it respond to their stimulation?

      No, the focal plane differs, and the signal in Figure 4C is considerably weaker compared to the immunohistochemistry shown in Figure 4A. Notably, the other neuron did not exhibit a response to NaCl.

      In Figure 4f a legend for the color scale is missing, or the color might not be necessary at all. Also, the asterisks seem to be shifted to the right.

      We fixed the shifted asterisks and eliminated the color.

      Figure 4i is mislabeled 4f

      We made the correction.

    1. Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The protein kinase, Aurora B, is a critical regulator of mitosis and cytokinesis in eukaryotes, exhibiting a dynamic localisation. As part of the Chromosomal Passenger Complex (CPC), along with the Aurora B activator, INCENP, and the CPC localisation module comprised of Borealin and Survivin, Aurora B travels from the kinetochores at metaphase to the spindle midzone at anaphase, which ensures its substrates are phosphorylated in a time- and space-dependent manner. In the kinetoplastid parasite, T. brucei, the Aurora B orthologue (AUK1), along with an INCENP orthologue known as CPC1, and a kinetoplastid-specific protein CPC2, also displays a dynamic localisation, moving from the kinetochores at metaphase, to the spindle midzone at anaphase, to the anterior end of the newly synthesised flagellum attachment zone (FAZ) at cytokinesis. However, the trypanosome CPC lacks orthologues of Borealin and Survivin, and T. brucei kinetochores also have a unique composition, being comprised of dozens of kinetoplastid-specific proteins (KKTs). Of particular importance for this study are KKT7 and the KKT8 complex (comprising KKT8, KKT9, KKT11, and KKT12). Here, Ballmer and Akiyoshi seek to understand how the CPC assembles and is targeted to its different locations during the cell cycle in T. brucei.

      Strengths & Weaknesses:

      Using immunoprecipitation and mass-spectrometry approaches, Ballmer and Akiyoshi show that AUK1, CPC1, and CPC2 associate with two orphan kinesins, KIN-A and KIN-B, and with the use of endogenously expressed fluorescent fusion proteins, demonstrate for the first time that KIN-A and KIN-B display a dynamic localisation pattern similar to other components of the CPC, providing compelling evidence for KIN-A and KIN-B being bona fide CPC proteins.

      They then demonstrate, by using RNAi to deplete individual components, that the CPC proteins have hierarchical interdependencies for their localisation to the kinetochores at metaphase. These experiments appear to have been well performed.

      Ballmer and Akiyoshi then go on to determine the kinetochore localisation domains of KIN-A and KIN-B. Using ectopically expressed GFP-tagged truncations, they show that coiled coil domains within KIN-A and KIN-B, as well as a disordered C-terminal tail present only in KIN-A, but not the N-terminal motor domains of KIN-A or KIN-B, are required for kinetochore localisation. These data are strengthened by immunoprecipitating CPC complexes and crosslinking them prior to mass spectrometry analysis (IP-CLMS), a state-of-the-art approach, to determine the contacts between the CPC components. Structural predictions of the CPC structure are also made using AlphaFold2, suggesting that coiled coils form between KIN-A and KIN-B, and that KIN-A/B interact with the N termini of CPC1 and CPC2. Experimental results showing that CPC1 and CPC2 are unable to localise to kinetochores if they lack their N-terminal domains are consistent with these predictions. Altogether these data provide compelling evidence of the protein domains required for CPC kinetochore localisation and CPC protein interactions and indicate that both KIN-A and KIN-B have a role to play.

      Next, using a mixture of RNAi depletion and LacI-LacO recruitment experiments, the authors show that kinetochore proteins KKT7 and KKT9 are required for AUK1 to localise to kinetochores (other KKT8 complex components were not tested here) and that all components of the KKT8 complex are required for KIN-A kinetochore localisation. Further, both KKT7 and KKT8 were able to recruit AUK1 to an ectopic locus in S phase, and KKT7 recruited KKT8 complex proteins, indicating it is upstream of KKT8, in line with previous work showing kinetochore localization of KKT7 is unaffected by disruption of the KKT8 complex. This leads to the conclusion that the KKT8 complex is likely the main kinetochore receptor of the CPC.

      Further IP-CLMS experiments, in combination with recombinant protein pull down assays and structural predictions, suggested that within the KKT8 complex, there are two subcomplexes of KKT8:KKT12 and KKT9:KKT11, and that KKT7 interacts with KKT9:KKT11 to recruit the remainder of the KKT8 complex. The authors also assess the interdependencies between KKT8 complex components for localisation and expression, showing that all four subunits are required for the assembly of a stable KKT8 complex and present AlphaFold2 structural modelling data to support the two subcomplex model. In general, these data are of high quality and convincing, although it is a shame that data showing the effects of KKT8, KKT9 and KKT12 depletion on KKT11 localisation and abundance could not be presented alongside the reciprocal experiments in Fig S4I-L.

      The authors also convincingly show that AlphaFold2 predictions of interactions between KKT9:KKT11 and a conserved domain (CD1) in the C-terminal tail of KIN-A are correct, with CD1 and a second conserved domain, CD2, identified through sequence analysis, acting synergistically to promote KIN-A kinetochore localisation at metaphase, but not being required for KIN-A to move to the central spindle at anaphase. They then hypothesise that the kinesin motor domain of KIN-A (but not KIN-B which is predicted to be inactive based on non-conservation of residues key for activity) determines its central spindle localisation at anaphase through binding to microtubules. In support of this hypothesis, the authors show that KIN-A, but not KIN-B can bind microtubules in vitro and in vivo. However, ectopically expressed GFP-NLS fusions of full length KIN-A or KIN-A motor domain did not localise to the central spindle at anaphase. The authors suggest this is due to the GFP fusion disrupting the ATPase activity of the motor domain, although they provide no evidence that this is the case. Instead, they replace endogenous KIN-A with a predicted ATPase-defective mutant (G210A), showing that while this still localises to kinetochores, the kinetochores were frequently misaligned at metaphase, and that it no longer concentrates at the central spindle (with concomitant mis-localisation of AUK1), causing cells to accumulate at anaphase. From these data, the authors conclude that KIN-A ATPase activity is required for chromosome congression to the metaphase plate and its central spindle localisation at anaphase. While these data are highly suggestive that KIN-A possesses ATPase activity, and that this activity is essential for its function, definitive biochemical evidence of KIN-A's ATPase activity is still lacking.

      Impact:

      Overall, this work uses a wide range of cutting edge molecular and structural predictive tools to provide a significant amount of new and detailed molecular data that shed light on the composition of the unusual trypanosome CPC and how it is assembled and targeted to different cellular locations during cell division. Given the fundamental nature of this research, it will be of interest to many parasitology researchers as well as cell biologists more generally, especially those working on aspects of mitosis and cell division, and those interested in the evolution of the CPC.

    1. Note: This response was posted by the corresponding author to Review Commons. The content has not been altered except for formatting.

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      Reply to the reviewers

      Through Review Commons, we received some highly favorable and constructive feedback from reviewers who are clearly knowledgeable about phylogenomics and/or the field of bacterial anti-phage immunity. We have responded to all suggestions made by the reviewers, which we feel have substantially improved and clarified the manuscript. We thank all three reviewers for their thoughtfulness and time.

      Reviewer #1

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      Culbertson and Levin present an elegant computational analysis of the evolutionary history of several families of immune proteins conserved in bacteria and metazoan cells. The authors' work is impressive, revealing interesting insight into previously known connections and identifying exciting new connections that further link bacterial anti-phage defense and animal innate immunity. The results are overall well-presented and will have an important impact on multiple related fields. I have a few comments for the authors to help explain some of the new connections observed in their findings and clarify the results for a general audience.

      We thank the reviewer for their kind appraisal of our manuscript as well as their helpful comments. We found their comments to be very useful in strengthening our work and increasing the clarity of the writing.

      Comments: 1) The authors adeptly navigate difficult and changing nomenclature around cGAS-STING signaling but there may be room for clarifying terminology. Although historically the term "CD-NTase" has been used to describe both bacterial and animal enzymes (including by this reviewer's older work as well), the field has now settled on consistent use of the name "CD-NTase" to describe bacterial cGAS/DncV-like enzymes and the use of the names "cGAS" and "cGLR" to describe animal cGAS-like receptor proteins. Nearly all papers describing bacterial signaling use the term CD-NTase, and since 2021 most papers describing divergent cGAS-like enzymes in animal signaling now use the term "cGLR" (for recent examples see primary papers Holleufer et al 2021 PMID 34261128; Slavik et al 2021 PMID 34261127; Li et al 2023 PMID 37379839; Cai et al 2023 PMID 37659413 and review articles Cai et al 2022 PMID 35149240; Slavik et al 2023 PMID 37380187; Fan et al 2021 PMID 34697297; West et al 2021 PMID 34373639 Unterholzner Cell 2023 PMID 37478819). Kingdom-specific uses of CD-NTase and cGLR may help add clarity to the manuscript especially as each group of enzyme is quite divergent and many protein members synthesize signaling molecules that are distinct from cyclic GMP-AMP (i.e. not cGAS).

      Related to this point, the term "SMODS" is useful for describing the protein family domain originally identified in the elegant work of Burroughs and Aaravind (Burroughs et al 2015 PMID 26590262), but this term is rarely used in papers focused on the biology of these systems. "eSMODS" is a good name, but the authors may want to consider a different description to better fit with current terminology.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s suggestion and have updated the text to try to be more clear (ex: using cGLR as a more specific term whenever possible). However, as OAS is distinctly not a cGLR, strict kingdom-specific use of the terms CD-NTase and cGLR is not possible. We have updated the Mab21 superfamily to be re-named as the cGLR superfamily, as those seem to be synonymous based on recent literature. At this time we are choosing to stick with the eSMODS terminology as it remains to be shown that these eukaryotic proteins have a CD-NTase-like biochemical function.

      An example of how we have tried to navigate this naming issues is:

      “The cGLR superfamily passed all four of these HGT thresholds, as did another eukaryotic clade of CD-NTases that were all previously undescribed. We name this clade the eukaryotic SMODS (eSMODS) superfamily, because the top scoring domain from hmmscan for each sequence in this superfamily was the SMODS domain (PF18144), which is typically found only in bacterial CD-NTases (Supplementary Data).”

      2) The authors state that proteins were identified using an iterative HMM-based search until they "began finding proteins outside of the family of interest" (Line 86). Is it possible to please explain in more detail what this means? A key part of the analysis pipeline is knowing when to stop, especially as some proteins like CD-NTases and cGLRs share related-homology to other major enzyme groups like pol-beta NTases while other proteins like STING and viperin are more unique.

      We have updated the text to better explain how we determined that a given protein sequence was excluded:

      “After using this approach to create pan-eukaryotic HMMs for each protein family, we then added in bacterial homologs to generate universal HMMs (Fig. 1A and Supp. Fig. 1), continuing our iterative searches until we either failed to find any new protein sequences or began finding proteins outside of the family of interest (Supp. Fig. 1). To define the boundaries that separated our proteins of interest from neighboring gene families, we focused on including homologs that shared protein domains that defined that family (see Materials and Methods for domain designations) and were closer to in-group sequences than the outgroup sequences on a phylogenetic tree (outgroup sequences are noted in the Materials and Methods). “

      We also added a section to the Methods specifically defining our outgroups:

      “As outgroup sequences, we used Poly(A) RNA polymerase (PAP) sequences for the CD-NTases, and molybdenum cofactor biosynthetic enzyme (MoaA) for viperin. We did not have a suitable outgroup for STING domains, nor did any diverged outgroups come up in our searches.”

      3) The authors comment on several controls to guard against potential contaminating bacterial sequences present in metazoan genome sequencing datasets (Lines 174-182). It may be helpful to include this very important part of the analysis as part of the stepwise schematic in Figure 1a. Additionally, have the authors used other eukaryotic features like the presence of introns or kingdom specific translation elements (e.g. Shine-Dalgarno- vs. Kozak-like sequences) as part of the analysis?

      We agree that it will be very interesting to look for these eukaryotic gene features, both to rule out contamination and to discern how eukaryotes have acquired and domesticated bacteria-like immune proteins. However, one limitation when working with the data in EukProt is that many species are represented by de novo transcriptome datasets and therefore information about the local gene environment, introns, or promoters are unavailable.

      4) A particularly surprising result of the analysis is a proposed connection between oligoadenylate synthase-like (OAS-like) enzymes and bacterial Clade C CD-NTases. A concern with these results is that previous structural analysis has demonstrated that bacterial CD-NTase enzymes and animal cGLRs are more closely related to each other than they are to OAS (Slavik et al 2021 PMID 34261127). Can the authors provide further support for a connection between OAS and Clade C CD-NTases? The C-terminal alpha-helix bundle of OAS is known to be distinct (Lohöfener et al 2015 PMID 25892109) and perhaps AlphaFold2 modeling of bacterial Clade C CD-NTases and additional OAS sequences may provide further bioinformatic evidence to support the authors' conclusions.

      We were also surprised by this finding as it seems to be in opposition to structural comparisons in studies such as Whiteley et. al 2019 (PMID 30787435). As the reviewer suggests,e used AlphaFold to predict the structures of two CD-NTases, that of Bacterioides uniformis (Clade C016) and Escherichia coli (Clade C018) as well as a previously uncharacterized OAS-like protein (Tripos fusus P058904) and compared those structural predictions to those of cGAS (PDB: 6CTA), OAS1 (PDB: 4RWO), and DncV (PDB: 4TY0). We used the DALI server to make these all vs all comparisons.

           We have not included these analyses in the manuscript as the results were largely inconclusive. The average pairwise z-score between any of these structures was around 20, with a narrow range of scores between 16 (e.g. OAS vs. DncV) and 22 (e.g. DncV vs. the Clade C CD-NTases). For reference, the z-score of a given protein compared to itself was ~50 and a z-score of 20 is a general DALI benchmark used to determine if structures are homologous ( z-scores between 8-20 are in a gray area, and 20+ are generally considered homologous).
      

      In our view, these pairwise structural comparisons suffer from essentially the same problem that is evident in phylogenetic trees containing only animal and bacterial homologs. Namely, all structures/sequences under consideration are extremely different from each other, on very long branches that are difficult to place with confidence when few homologs are being considered. The benefit of our approach is that we have the ideal species diversity to break up the long branches (particularly with respect to the OAS superfamily), allowing us to place those sequences confidently on the phylogeny.

      That said, while we have strong support for the topology of OAS within the CD-NTase tree, the interpretation of the relationships relies partly on the inferred root of the tree. In our analyses, we opted not to include a distant outgroup such as pol-beta for rooting purposes, as these sequences aligned poorly with the CD-NTases, resulting in a substantial decrease in alignment and tree quality. Instead, in Fig. 2 we present a tree that is arbitrarily rooted within the bacterial CD-NTases, as this root allows for clade C to be phylogenetically coherent. Our data are also consistent with an alternative rooting, placing OAS as an outgroup. If so, this would yield a tree that implies that OAS-like sequences could have given rise to all other CD-NTases and that, within the non-OAS sequences, all bacterial CD-NTases emerged from within Clade C. We thought it slightly more likely that the root of CD-NTases was solidly within bacteria, hence the display we chose. However, we were not intending to rule out an OAS-outgroup model here. As this response to reviewers will be publically available alongside the final manuscript, we hope this clarifies our claims about the placement of OAS.

      5) One of the most exciting results in the paper is identification of a family of putative CD-NTase enzymes conserved in metazoans. Although full description may be beyond the scope of this paper, if possible, some more analysis would be interesting here: a. Are these CD-NTase enzymes in a conserved gene neighborhood within the metazoan genomes (i.e. located next to a potential cyclic nucleotide receptor?) b. Do these metazoan genomes encode other known receptors for cyclic nucleotide signaling (PFAM searches for CARF or SAVED domains for instance). c. Similar to points 3 and 4, is it possible to add further evidence for support of these proteins as true metazoan sequences that have predicted structural homology to bacterial CD-NTase enzymes?

      Yes agreed, we think point a is an exciting avenue of questioning to pursue. However, as mentioned above, the Eukprot dataset often does not provide the relevant information for the analyses proposed. Therefore, we feel that answering questions about the genomic region of these proteins is beyond the scope of the current manuscript. In particular, all 6 of the eSMODS species are represented only by transcriptomes, making these analyses impossible.

      For point b, we searched EukProt with HMMs for SAVED domains (PF18145), finding 24 total SAVED-containing proteins in EukProt. (We did not find a CARF HMM in Pfam, Tigrfam or other databases, and so could not easily carry out these searches.) Five of the 24 SAVED-containing sequences came from species encoding an eSMODS gene. This represented 3 species out of the total 20 species where we detected a SAVED domain. While this is a potentially intriguing overlap, we cannot make a strong claim about whether these SAVED sequences derive from eukaryotes vs. bacterial contamination without undergoing the extensive searching and phylogenetic tree construction methods for SAVED domains that we have performed for our three families of interest. We expect this will be an interesting line of inquiry for a future study.

      For point c, we agree that additional evidence to support the finding that the eSMODS are eukaryotic rather than bacterial sequences would be helpful. To us, the strongest pieces of evidence would be: 1) presence of eukaryotic gene architecture, 2) adjacency to clearly eukaryotic genes in the contig, and/or 3) fluorescence in situ hybridization experiments in these species to localize where the genes are encoded. Unfortunately, the transcriptome data available does not provide this level of information. We hope that other groups will follow up on these genes and species to decide the matter more definitively. In the meantime, we feel that our filters for HGT vs. contamination have done as much as possible with the existing dataset. We have modified the text in this region to leave open potential scenarios that could be fooling us, such as the presence of unusual, long-term, eukaryote-associated symbionts in the taxa where we detect eSMODS:

      “For species represented only by transcriptomes, these criteria may still have difficulty distinguishing eukaryote-bacteria HGT from certain specific scenarios such as the long-term presence of dedicated, eukaryote-associated, bacterial symbionts. However, because these criteria allow us to focus on relatively old HGT events, they give us higher confidence these events are likely to be real. ”

      6) The authors state that obvious CD-NTase/cGLR enzymes are not present in organisms that encode the group of divergent eukaryotic "blSTINGs". Have the authors analyzed the protein-coding genes encoded immediately upstream and downstream of the blSTING proteins with AlphaFold2 and FoldSeek? It would be very exciting if putative cyclic nucleotide generating enzymes are predicted to be encoded within the nearby gene neighborhood.

      Similar to the eSMODS, the majority of the species with blSTINGs were represented by transcriptomes (22/26). We do agree that this type of analysis would be very interesting. However, we feel that this is beyond the scope of this manuscript.

      7) Line 144 appears to reference the incorrect supplementary figure. SI Figure 4 may be the correct reference?

      We agree and have made this change. We thank the reviewer for catching this error.

      I hope the authors will find my comments useful, thank you for the opportunity to read this exciting manuscript.

      Significance

      Culbertson and Levin present an elegant computational analysis of the evolutionary history of several families of immune proteins conserved in bacteria and metazoan cells. The authors' work is impressive, revealing interesting insight into previously known connections and identifying exciting new connections that further link bacterial anti-phage defense and animal innate immunity. The results are overall well-presented and will have an important impact on multiple related fields. I have a few comments for the authors to help explain some of the new connections observed in their findings and clarify the results for a general audience.

      Reviewer #2

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      Describe your expertise? Molecular Evolution, Mechanisms of Protein evolution, Phylogenomics, Adaptation.

      Summary: This manuscript broadly aims to improve our understanding the evolutionary relationships between eukaryote and bacterial protein families where members of those families have immune roles. The study focuses on three such families and samples deeply across the eukaryotic tree. The approaches taken include a nice application of the EukProt database and the use of homology detection approaches that are sensitive to the issues of assigning homology through deep time. The main findings show the heterogeneity in means by which these families have arisen, with some of the families originating at least as far back as the LCA of eukaryotes, in contrast the wide spread yet patchy distribution of other families is the result of repeated independent HGT events and/or convergent domain shuffling.

      We thank the reviewer for this excellent review and their helpful comments and suggestions. We firmly believe that these comments will strengthen and clarify our work.

      Major Comments: 1. Overall the level of detail provided throughout the manuscript is lacking, perhaps the authors were constrained by a word limit for initial submission, if so then this limit needs to be extended to include the detail necessary. In addition, there are some structural issues throughout, e.g. some of the very brief intro (see later comment) reads a little more like methods (paragraph 2) and abstract (paragraph 3). The results section is lacking detail of the supporting evidence from the clever analyses that were clearly performed and the statistics underpinning conclusions are not included.

      Good suggestion, we have updated the paper to include more details and statistics on the analyses that were performed. We have also expanded on some of the most interesting findings about these bacterial innate immune proteins in the introduction (see Comment 2 below for our changes), as well as shifting the methods-like paragraph mentioned (paragraph 2) to later on in the paper. For paragraph 3, we have slimmed this down to include fewer details, but leave the final paragraph of the Introduction as a brief synopsis to prime the reader for the rest of the paper.

      1. The intro and discussion both include statements about some recent discoveries that bacteria and mammals share mechanisms of innate immunity - but there is no further detail into what would appear to be important work leading to this study. This context needs to be provided in more detail therefore I would encourage the authors to expand on the intro to include specific detail on these significant prior studies. In addition, more background information on the gene families investigated in detail here would be useful e.g. how the proteins produced influence immunity etc should be a feature of the intro. A clear and concise rationale for why these 3 particular gene families (out of all the possible innate immune genes known) were selected for analysis.

      We have added in additional background about some of the most exciting discoveries made in the past few years. We also included specific rationale as to why we chose to look at cGAS, STING, and Viperin.

      Specifically, we have added the following to the introduction:

      “ For example, bacterial cGAS-DncV-like nucleotidyltransferases (CD-NTases), which generate cyclic nucleotide messengers (similar to cGAS), are massively diverse with over 6,000 CD-NTase proteins discovered to date. Beyond the cyclic GMP-AMP signals produced by animal cGAS proteins, bacterial CD-NTases are capable of producing a wide array of nucleotide signals including cyclic dinucleotides, cyclic trinucleotides, and linear oligonucleotides [11,14]. Many of these bacterial CD-NTase products are critical for bacterial defense against viral infection[8]. Interestingly, these discoveries with the CD-NTases mirror what has been discovered with bacterial viperins. In mammals, viperin proteins restrict viral replication by generating 3’-deoxy-3’,4’didehdro- (ddh) nucleotides[4,15–17] block RNA synthesis and thereby inhibit viral replication[15,18]. Mammalian viperin generates ddhCTP molecules while bacterial viperins can generate ddhCTP, ddhUTP, and ddhGTP. In some cases, a single bacterial protein is capable of synthesizing two or three of these ddh derivatives[4]. These discoveries have been surprising and exciting, as they imply that some cellular defenses have deep commonalities spanning across the entire Tree of Life, with additional new mechanisms of immunity waiting to be discovered within diverse microbial lineages. But despite significant homology, these bacterial and animal immune proteins are often distinct in their molecular functions and operate within dramatically different signaling pathways (reviewed here[5]). How, then, have animals and other eukaryotes acquired these immune proteins?”

      In regards to why we choose to investigate CD-NTases, STING, and Viperin specifically, we have added the following to the third paragraph of the introduction:

      “We choose to focus on the cGAS, STING, and Viperin for a number of reasons. First, in metazoans cGAS and STING are part of the same signaling pathway whereas bacterial CD-NTases often act independently of bacterial STINGs[21], raising interesting questions about how eukaryotic immune proteins have gained their signaling partners. Also, given the vast breadth of bacterial CD-NTase diversity, we were curious as to if any eukaryotes had acquired CD-NTases distinct from cGAS. For similar reasons, we investigated Viperin, which also has a wide diversity in bacteria but a much more narrow described function in eukaryotes.”

      1. Context: Genome quality is always a concern, and confirming the absence of an element/protein in a genome is challenging given the variation in quality of available genomes. Low BUSCO scores mean that the assessment of gene loss is difficult to evaluate (but we are not provided with said scores). Query: in the results section it states that the BUSCO completeness scores (which need to be provided) etc were insufficient to explain the pattern of gene loss. I would like to know how they reached this conclusion - what statistical analyses (ANOVA?? OTHER??) have been performed to support this statement and please include the associated P values etc. Similarly, throughout the paper, including in the discussion section, the point is brushed over. If, given a statistical test, you find that some of the disparity in gene presence is explained by BUSCO score, most of your findings are still valid. It would just be difficult to make conclusions about gene loss.

      We have rewritten this section to be more clear about what we feel we can and cannot say about gene loss and BUSCO scores. This section now reads:

      “However, outside of Metazoa, these homologs were sparsely distributed, such that for most species in our dataset (711/993), we did not recover proteins from any of the three immune families examined (white space, lack of colored bars, Fig. 1B). While some of these absences may be due to technical errors or dataset incompleteness (Supp. Fig. 2), we interpret this pattern as a reflection of ongoing, repeated gene losses across eukaryotes, as has been found for other innate immune proteins[27–29] and other types of gene families surveyed across eukaryotes[28,30–32]. Indeed, many of the species that lacked any of the immune homologs were represented by high-quality datasets (Ex: Metazoa, Chlorplastida, and Fungi). Thus, although it is always possible that our approach has missed some homologs, we believe the resulting data represents a fair assessment of the diversity across eukaryotes, at least for those species currently included within EukProt.”

      In addition, we direct readers to EukProt v3, where the BUSCO scores are publicly available.

      “BUSCO scores can also be viewed on EukProt v3 (https://evocellbio.com/SAGdb/images/EukProtv3.busco.output.txt).”

      1. In terms of the homolog search strategy - line 394 - can you please state what an "outgroup gene family" means in this context. It is unclear but very important to the downstream interpretation of results.

      We have updated the materials and methods to specifically name our outgroups:

      “As outgroup sequences, we used Poly(A) RNA polymerase (PAP) sequences for the CD-NTases, and molybdenum cofactor biosynthetic enzyme (MoaA) for viperin. We did not have a suitable outgroup for STING domains, nor did any diverged outgroups come up in our searches.”

      1. For reproducibility, the materials and methods section needs to provide more detail/sufficient detail to reproduce these results. E.g the section describing phase 1 of the euk searches the text here repeats what is in the results section for the crystal structure work but doesn't give me any information on how, what method was used to "align the crystal structures", what scoring scheme is used and how the scoring scheme identifies "the core"? What specific parameters are used throughout. Why is MAFFT the method of choice for some of the analyses? Whereas, in other cases both MAFFT and MUSCLE are employed. What are the specific settings used for the MAFFT alignments throughout - is it default (must state if that is the case) or is it MAFFT L-INS-I with default settings etc.

      We have updated the text to include the specific settings used each time a particular software package was deployed. We also have included information for STING as to how we aligned 3 published crystal structures to determine the boundaries of homology.

      Here is how we now discuss identifying the “core” STING domain:

      “ For STING, where the Pfam profile includes regions of the protein outside of the STING domain, we generated a new HMM for the initial search. First, we aligned crystal structures of HsSTING (6NT5), Flavobacteriaceae sp. STING (6WT4) and Crassostrea gigas STING (6WT7) with the RCSB PDB “Pairwise Structure Alignment” tool with a jFATCAT (rigid) option[73,74]. We defined a core “STING” domain, as the ungapped region of 6NT5 that aligned with 6WT7 and 6WT4 (residues G152-V329 of 6NT5).Then we aligned 15 eukaryotic sequences from PF15009 (all 15 of the “Reviewed” sequences on InterPro) with MAFFT(v7.4.71)[75] with default parameters and manually trimmed the sequences down to the boundaries defined by our crystal alignment (residues 145-353 of 6NT5). We then trimmed the alignment with TrimAI (v1.2)[76] with options -gt 0.2. The trimmed MSA was then used to generate an HMM profile with hmmbuild from the hmmer (v3.2.1) package (hmmer.org) using default settings. “

      We employed three alignment softwares at specific times throughout our analyses. MAFFT was used as our default aligner for most of the analysis. Hmmalign (part of the hmmer package) was used to make the alignments prior to hmmbuild. The overall goal of this work was to reconstruct the evolutionary history of these proteins via a phylogenetic tree. To ensure that this tree topology was as robust as possible we employed the more computationally intensive, but more accurate, tree builder MUSCLE. We have updated the text in the methods section to be more clear as to why we used each software.

      We have updated the methods section to read:

      “MUSCLE was deployed in parallel with MAFFT to generate these final alignments to ensure that the final tree topology would be as robust as possible. MUSCLE is a slightly more accurate but more computationally intensive alignment software[79].”

      1. The justification for the number of HMM searches needs to be included. The choice of starting points for the HMMs was cryptic - please provide details. It is likely that you ran the search until no more sequences were found or until sequences were added from a different gene family, and that these happened to be between 3 and 5 searches, but it reads like you wanted to run it 3 or 5 times and that corresponds to the above condition. Something like this would be clearer: "The profile was [...] until no more sequences were found or until sequences from other gene families were found which was between 3 and 5 times in all cases" - the same is true of figure 1.

      We agree that this could have been worded better. We have updated the text to make it more clear that we searched until saturation which happened to occur between 3-5 searches and not that we arbitrarily wanted to do 3-5 searches.

      We have updated the text, which now reads:

      “After using this approach to create pan-eukaryotic HMMs for each protein family, we then added in bacterial homologs to generate universal HMMs (Fig. 1A and Supp. Fig. 1), continuing our iterative searches until we either failed to find any new protein sequences or began finding proteins outside of the family of interest (Supp. Fig. 1). To define the boundaries that separated our proteins of interest from neighboring gene families, we focused on including homologs that shared protein domains that defined that family (see Materials and Methods for domain designations) and were closer to in-group sequences than the outgroup sequences on a phylogenetic tree (outgroup sequences are noted in the Materials and Methods). “

      We also updated the figure legend to Fig. 1. It now reads:

      “Each set of searches was repeated until few or no additional eukaryotic sequences were recovered which was between 3-5 times in all cases.”

      1. Why do you limit hits to 10 per species - might this lead to misleading findings about gene family diversity? Info and justification for approach is required (411-412).

      We limited the hits to 10 per species to limit the influence of any one species on our alignments and subsequent phylogenetic trees. This 10-per-species cap was never reached with any search for STING or Viperin, but was used to throttle the number of Metazoan hits when searching for CD-NTases. Because of this, we probably have missed some amount of the diversity of Metazoan Mab21-like/OAS-like sequences, although this was not a focus of our manuscript. We have updated the text to be more clear about why we have included this limit and when the limit was invoked.

      We have update the text, which now reads:

      “HMM profiles were used to search EukProt via hmmsearch (also from hmmer v3.2.1) with a statistical cutoff value of 1e-3 and -hit parameter set to 10 (i.e. the contribution of a single species to the output list is capped at 10 sequences). It was necessary to cap the output list, as EukProt v3 includes de novo transcriptome assemblies with multiple splice isoforms of the same gene and we wanted to limit the overall influence a single species had on the overall tree. We never reached the 10 species cap for any search for STING or viperin homologs; only for the CD-NTases within Metazoa did this search cap limit hits.”

      1. The information in Supplementary Figure 3 is quite difficult to assess visually, but I think that is what is expected from that figure. However, this is an important underpinning element of the work and should really be quantitatively assessed. A metric of comparison of trees, with defined thresholds etc there are many out there, even a simple Robinson-Foulds test perhaps? Essentially - comparing the panels in Supplementary Figure 3 by eye is unreliable and in this case not possible given there are no labels. It would also be important to provide these full set of phylogenies generated and associated RF/other scores as supplementary file.

      We agree that this Supplementary Figure is difficult to assess by eye, however we feel that it is vital to show this data. Visually, we do feel like this figure conveys the idea that while individual branches may move around, the major clades/areas of interest are stable across the different alignments and tree builders. To increase robustness, we have included the weighted Robinson-Foulds test results into a new panel of this figure (Supplementary Fig. 3B).

      We have added a section to the methods on how this weighted Robinson-Foulds test was conducted:

      “Weighted Robinson-Foulds distances for Supp. Fig. 3B were calculated with Visual TreeCmp (settings: -RFWeighted -Prune trees -include summary -zero weights allowed)[83].”

      We added the weighted Robinson-Foulds data to Supplemental Fig. 3 and have updated the figure legend to reflect this new data. The new legend for Supp. Fig. 3B reads:

      “(B) The average weighted Robinson-Foulds distances all pairwise comparisons between the four tree types (MAFFT/MUSCLE alignment built with IQTREE/RAXML-ng). Although the distances were higher for the CD-NTase tree (as expected for this highly diverse gene family), all of the key nodes defining the cGLR, OAS, and eSMODS superfamilies, as well as their nearest bacterial relatives, were well supported (>70 ultrafast bootstrap value).”

      1. Does domain shuffling mean that phylogenetic reconstruction is less valid? How was the alignment performed in these cases to account for this.

      Thank you for bringing this up, this is a point we have now clarified in the text. Our searches, alignments, and trees are all of single protein domains, as typically only conservation within domains is retained across the vast distances between bacteria and eukaryotes. As such, domain shuffling should have no impact on the validity of that phylogenetic reconstruction. We have updated the text to be more clear about the scope of the alignments and searches. We made changes to our wording throughout the manuscript. One specific example of this is:

      “Using maximum likelihood phylogenetic reconstruction on the STING domain alone, we identified STING-like sequences from 26 diverse microeukaryotes whose STING domains clustered in between bacterial and metazoan sequences, breaking up the long branch.”

      Minor Comments: 10. I am not sure about the use of the term "truly ancestral" or variants thereof, same issues with "significant homology" and "inherited since LECA and possibly longer" .. these are awkwardly phrased. E.g. I think perhaps "homologous across the whole length" might be clearer, and elsewhere "present in LECA and possibly earlier" may be more fitting.

             We have updated the text for these phrases throughout the manuscript and have replaced them with more specific language.
      
      1. Line 75 - "Detecting" rather than discovering?

      We appreciate the suggestion. However, because many of these gene families have never been described in the eukaryotic lineages considered here, we think ‘discovering’ is more appropriate. Indeed, the eSMODS lineage demonstrates that our search approach has the power to find not just new homologs but to discover totally new subfamilies of these eukaryotic proteins.

      1. 132-133 - more justification is needed for the choice of bacterial genes.

      We have clarified that our selection of bacterial CD-NTases included every known CD-NTase at the time of our analysis. The text now reads:

      “As representative bacterial CD-NTases, we used 6,132 bacterial sequences, representing a wide swath of CD-NTase diversity[43]. To our knowledge, this dataset included every known bacterial CD-NTase at the time of our analysis.”

      1. For the downsizing from 6000 to 500 what were the criteria and thresholds.

      We have updated the text to include the PDA software options for downsampling.The text now reads:

      “We downsampled the CD-NTase bacterial sequences from ~6000 down to 500 using PDA software (options -k 500) on a FastTree (default settings) tree built upon a MAFFT (default parameters) tree, to facilitate more manageable computation times on alignments and tree construction.“

      1. How are you rooting your trees e.g. figure 2? Information is provided for Viperin but not others.

      We have updated the text to ensure that the root of every tree is specifically stated.

      1. In the results section on CD-NTases I think it would be best to place the second paragraph detailing the role of cGAS earlier in this section, perhaps after the first sentence.

      We have moved the second paragraph, which introduces cGAS, OAS, and the other CD-NTases to the beginning of the CD-NTase section.The first paragraph of the CD-NTase section of the results now reads:

      “We next studied the evolution of the innate immune proteins, beginning with cGAS and its broader family of CD-NTase enzymes. Following infections or cellular damage, cGAS binds cytosolic DNA and generates cyclic GMP-AMP (cGAMP)[32–35], which then activates downstream immune responses via STING [34,36–38]. Another eukaryotic CD-NTase, 2’5’-Oligoadenylate Synthetase 1 (OAS1), synthesizes 2',5'-oligoadenylates which bind and activate Ribonuclease L (RNase L)[39]. Activated RNase L is a potent endoribonuclease that degrades both host and viral RNA species, reducing viral replication (reviewed here[40,41]). Some bacterial CD-NTases such as DncV behave similar to animal cGAS; they are activated by phage infection and produce cGAMP[8,42,43]. These CD-NTases are commonly found within cyclic oligonucleotide-based anti-phage signaling systems (CBASS) across many bacterial phyla and archaea[8,27,43].”

      1. Is FASTtree really necessary to include as it will underperform in all instances? Removing that method and comparing the remaining two (i.e. IQTREE and RAXML) - what level of disagreement do you find between the 2 alignment and 2 tree building methods? The cases that disagree should also be detailed.

      We agree that FASTtree underperforms against IQTREE and RAXML and have eliminated those trees from the supplement. We initially had included FASTtree, as it still seems to be widely used in phylogenetic analyses within the recent papers on bacterial immune homologs, but we completely agree with the reviewer and have removed it. In addition, we have calculated and added in the average weighted Robinson-Foulds Distance to Supplemental Figure 3. Our manuscript focuses on features of the phylogenetic trees that were consistent across all the replicate methods. However, given the numerous sequences and high degree of divergence involved, there were many cases where individual branches shifted between the methods, e.g. if individual CD-NTases within bacterial clade G swapped positions with one another. The differences we observed between the trees were inconsequential to our overall conclusions.

      1. Again a structural point - the start to paragraph "To understand the evolutionary history of CD-NTases we used the Pfam domain PF03281 as a starting point", I don't know at this point why or how you have done this. The sentence seems a little premature. I would therefore suggest that you start that paragraph with your motivation, "In order to..." and then finish that paragraph with your sentence in quotes above which actually summarizes the paragraph.

      We have updated the text to clear up this paragraph (in addition to other structural changes in the CD-NTase section. The paragraph containing information about how we started the HMM searches for the CD-NTases now reads:

      “ To begin our sequence searches for eukaryotic CD-NTases, we used the Pfam domain PF03281, representing the main catalytic domain of cGAS, as a starting point. As representative bacterial CD-NTases, we used 6,132 bacterial sequences, representing a wide swath of CD-NTase diversity[21]. Following our iterative HMM searches, we recovered 313 sequences from 109 eukaryotes, of which 34 were metazoans (Supplemental Data and Fig. 1B). Within the phylogenetic trees, most eukaryotic sequences clustered into one of two distinct superfamilies: the cGLR superfamily (defined by clade and containing a Mab21 PFAM domain: PF03281) or the OAS superfamily (OAS1-C: PF10421) (Fig. 2A). Bacterial CD-NTases typically had sequences matching the HMM for the Second Messenger Oligonucleotide or Dinucleotide Synthetase domain (SMODS: PF18144).”

      1. Line 148 - "within" change to "before"?

      We have updated the text with this suggestion.

      1. Unclear from text as is whether you found any STING homologs in arthropods (~line 157). Please update the text for clarity. Would also suggest that "agreeing" should be replaced with "aligning".

      We found several STING homologs in arthropods and have updated the text to specifically note this. We also have updated the text as per the suggestion of using the term “aligning” instead of “agreeing”.The text now reads:

      “Almost half of these species (10/19) were arthropods, aligning with prior findings of STING sparseness among arthropods(Wu et al. 2014). We did find STING homologs in 8/19 arthropod species in EukProt v3, including the previously identified STINGs of Drosophila melanogaster, Apis mellifera and Tribolium castaneum(Wu et al. 2014; Margolis, Wilson, and Vance 2017).”

      1. Line 169 - If clade D is not a clade, maybe it should be called something different.

      Yes, unfortunate naming, isn’t it? Clade D is not a coherent clade in our results nor when it was first described, but we feel that for consistency with the rest of the field, it is best if we adhere to previously published nomenclature.

      1. Line 188-190 - In principle, max likelihood should be able to infer the right tree even with high divergence.

      Yes, we agree that maximum likelihood methods should be able to infer the correct tree. However, we are not sure what change the reviewer is suggesting here.

      1. Paragraph starting at 199 - eSMODS - always unknown function or mostly - could be important.

      To our knowledge the function of the two closest bacterial CD-NTases to the eSMODS group have an unknown function.

      1. For calling HGT you state that one of the criteria is that the euk and bac sequences branched near one another, what is "near" in this scenario?

      “Near” in this case refers to being adjacent on the phylogenetic tree. We have updated the text for clarity. The text now reads:

      “To minimize such false positive HGT calls, we took a conservative approach in our analyses, considering potential bacteria-eukaryote HGT events to be trustworthy only if: 1) eukaryotic and bacterial sequences branched adjacent to one another with strong support (bootstrap values >70); 2) the eukaryotic sequences formed a distinct subclade, represented by at least 2 species from the same eukaryotic supergroup; 3) the eukaryotic sequences were produced by at least 2 different studies; and 4) the position of the horizontally transferred sequences was robust across all alignment and phylogenetic reconstruction methods used (Supp. Fig. 3A).”

      1. In legends be specific about what type of support value, e.g. bootstrap or jack-knife.. I think it is always bootstrap but would be good to have that precision.

      Our phylogenetic trees only use bootstrap values for support and so have updated the figure legends and methods to provide this information. Apologies for this lack of clarity.

      1. Throughout the text if stating e.g. "clustered robustly and with high support" please provide the appropriate values.

      We have updated the text to provide bootstrap values when invoking statements about support. An example of this is:

      “There are two clades of Chloroplastida (a group within Archaeplastida) sequences that branch robustly (>80 ultrafast bootstrap value) within the bacteria clade.”

      1. It is unclear from the text how the animal origin of the TIR domain is supported (~line 274). Please provide necessary details to support your statements in the results section.

      Our phylogenetic tree of TIR domains (Supp. Fig. 7), places C. gigas’ TIR domain (of its STING protein) clusters with high support next to other metazoan TIR domains.

      We have updated the STING section to include these lines:

      “We also investigated the possibility that C. gigas acquired the TIR-domain of its TIR-STING protein via HGT from bacteria, however this analysis also suggested an animal origin for the TIR domain (Supp. Fig. 7), as the C. gigas TIR domain clustered with other metazoan TIR domains such as Homo sapiens TICAM1 and 2 (ultrafast bootstrap value of 75). Eukaryotic TIR-STINGs are also rare, further supporting the hypothesis that this protein resulted from recent convergence, where animals independently fused STING and TIR domains to make a protein resembling bacterial TIR-STINGs, consistent with previous reports[19].”

      1. Replace similar with -> similar "to"

      We have accepted the suggestion and replaced “with” with “to”.

      1. Line 266: It was previously shown .. or it is known but not "it was previously known"

      We have rephrased the sentence to be clearer: “Some eukaryotes like C. gigas…”.

      1. The last sentence in paragraph ~line 277: "Our work also identified a number of non-metazoan STINGS...." Please expand on this and provide some of the details on this finding in the text or point to the figure that supports the statement and provide a little more detail here.

      The intent of the words on line 277 was a summary of what we had previously discussed in the STING section. For clarity we updated the text, which now reads:

      “Interestingly the non-metazoan, blSTINGs (Fig. 3C) that are found in the Stramenopiles, Haptista, Rhizaria, Choanoflagellates and Amoebozoa have a TM-STING domain architecture similar to animal STINGs but a STING domain more similar to bacterial STINGs..”

      blSTINGs are discussed in more detail earlier in the STING section (specifically paragraph 3) where we say:

      “Using maximum likelihood phylogenetic reconstruction on the STING domain alone, we identified STING-like sequences from 26 diverse microeukaryotes whose STING domains clustered in between bacterial and metazoan sequences, breaking up the long branch. We name these sequences the bacteria-like STINGs (blSTINGs) because they were the only eukaryotic group of STINGs with a bacteria-like Prok_STING domain (PF20300) and because of the short branch length (0.86 vs. 1.8) separating them from bacterial STINGs on the tree (Fig. 3C). While a previous study reported STING domains in two eukaryotic species (one in Stramenopiles and one in Haptista) [19], we were able to expand this set to additional species and also recover blSTINGs from Amoebozoa, Rhizaria and choanoflagellates. This diversity allowed us to place the sequences on the tree with high confidence (bootstrap value >70), recovering a substantially different tree than previous work[19]. As for CD-NTases, the tree topology we recovered was robust across multiple different alignment and phylogenetic tree construction algorithms (Supp. Fig. 3A).”

      1. Line 294: it is unclear which are the orphan taxa -we are directed to figure 1 but there is no notation for orphan taxa here perhaps add something to the figure to make obvious which these are.

      We have updated the text to mention these orphan taxa specifically by name.

      The text now reads:

      “The 194 viperin-like proteins we recovered came from 158 species spanning the full range of eukaryotic diversity, including organisms from all of the major eukaryotic supergroups, as well as some orphan taxa whose taxonomy remains open to debate (Fig. 1, Ancyromonadida, Hemimastigophora, Malawimonadida).”

      1. Lines 340-341 - some redundant use of eukaryotic/eukaryotes

      We have updated the text to reduce redundancy.

      1. Lines 475-480 - some further detail needed - how were sequences trimmed to the TIR domain? - what were your starting sequences? etc.

      We have updated the text detailing how we acquired a set of proteins from Interpro and how we used hmmscan to determine the coordinates for the TIR domains in those proteins. We then isolated the TIR domains (using the coordinates defined by hmmscan) and proceeded to align those sequences

      The text now reads:

      “We used hmmscan to identify the coordinates of TIR domains in a list of 203 TIR domain containing-sequences from InterPro (all 203 proteins from curated “Reviewed” selection of IPR000157 (Toll/interleukin-1 receptor homology (TIR) domain as of 2023-04-04)) and 104 bacterial TIR-STING proteins (the same TIR-STING proteins used in Fig. 3)[3]. Next, we trimmed the sequences down to the hmmscan identified TIR coordinates and aligned the TIR domains with MUSCLE (-super5). We trimmed the alignments with TrimAL and built a phylogenetic tree with IQtree (-s, -bb 1000, -m TEST, -nt AUTO).”

      1. Check that the colour schemes for branches etc are detailed in the legends of supplementary as well as main.

      We have updated the text of figure legends to be more clear about our maintenance of the same color scheme throughout the manuscript. This involved ensuring that the following statement (or an equivalent statement) was present in the figure legends of Figures 2, 3, 4, S2, S3,S4,S5,S6, and S7:

      “Eukaryotic sequences are colored according to eukaryotic group as in Fig. 1B.”

      1. The threshold set for gaps is very strict at 0.2. This seems quite strict given the sequences are potentially quite highly divergent. What length are the alignments that you are using after trimming - these details need to be included and considered.

      We have updated the text to specifically detail how long our alignments were after trimming and how that post-trimming length compares to the length of the alignment for each PFAM group.

      Specifically, the text now reads:

      “The length of these final alignments were 232, 175, and 346 amino acids long for CD-NTases, STING, and viperin respectively. These alignments represent ≥75% of the length of alignment their respective PFAM domain (PF3281 (Mab-21 protein nucleotidyltransferase domain) for CD-NTases, PF20300 (Prokaryotic STING domain) for STING, and PF404055 (Radical SAM family) for viperin.”

      1. How were sequences downsampled with PDA? Line 424.

      We have updated the text to include the PDA settings that were used to downsample sequences. The text now reads:

      “To ensure the combined HMM did not have an overrepresentation of either bacterial or eukaryotic sequences, we downsampled the bacterial sequences and eukaryotic sequences to obtain 50 phylogenetically diverse sequences of each, and then combined the two downsampled lists. To do this, eukaryotic and bacterial sequences were each separately aligned with MAFFT (default parameters), phylogenetic trees were built with FastTree (v2.1.10)[77], and the Phylogenetic Diversity Analyzer (pda/1.0.3)[78] software with options -k 50 or -k 500 with otherwise default parameters was run the the FastTree files to downsample the sequences while maximizing remaining sequence diversity.”

      1. Please provide adequate descriptions for the materials in the supplementary files for the manuscript, they currently lack description. They are useful and we fully support their inclusion with sufficient information.

      We have expanded the descriptions of the provided supplementary files.

      1. The starting sequences, hmm pipeline and scripts would be great to include, apologies if we have missed them.

      We have added the starting bacterial sequences to the supplementary data, as well as the final HMMs, and the one script that we used in our analysis. All other software (including the included script) is freely and publicly available.

      Significance

      This study provides us with examples of instances where a medley of different mechanisms have resulted in the emergence of innate immune proteins across eukaryotes. The study is entirely bioinformatic in nature and provides some nice cases for future study. The thorough search strategies are to be commended. The limitations of the work are that we don't know whether the functions have also been conserved across deep time and/or in the independent events described. Nevertheless, this work contributes to a growing body of evidence on the complex, and sometimes shared, nature of the evolution of animal and bacterial immunity. I would classify this nice study as a conceptual advance of our understanding of the evolution of protein families through deep time and would imagine it is of interest to a broad audience of biologists from immunologists to evolutionary biologists and structural biologists.

      Reviewer #3 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      The manuscript by Culbertson and Levin takes a bioinformatic approach to investigate the evolutionary origins/trajectories of three different proteins domains involved in innate immunity in both bacteria and eukaryotes: cGAS/CD-NTases, STING, and Viperins. To perform this analysis, the authors apply an iterative homology search model to the EukProt database of eukaryotic genomes. Their analysis finds that that eukaryotic CD-NTases arose from multiple horizontal gene transfer events between bacteria and eukaryotes. They also fill in an important gap in understanding how STING from bacteria evolved into modern human STING by identifying blasting in diverse eukaryotes. Finally, they determine that Viperins are an ancient protein family that likely existed in LECA, but found two more recent HGT events for proteins related in Vipirin.

      Major comments

      1. The hypothesis for the origin of STING via convergent domain shuffling could be handled with a little more care in the text. The authors show that homologs of STING from animals can also be found in the genomes of diverse eukaryotes outside the metazoa, demonstrating (1) STING and cGAS have had different histories, and (2) that these sequences are more bacteria-like than metazoan STING. However, in multiple places (the title, line 275, elsewhere) the term "convergence" could be misleading. "Convergence" leaves the reader with the impression that there is no common ancestor between the STING domain from bacteria and eukaryotes. I understand that the authors are using "convergent domain shuffling" to draw this distinction, but I'm unsure if a naïve reader will glean the distinction between domain shuffling and STING itself converging. I would argue that we simply cannot place eukaryotic STING and blSTING proteins on the tree of bSTING sequences. i.e. blSTING are no more related to bacterial TM-STING than bacterial TIR-STING (likely the missing bSTING sequences are simply extinct?). Can the authors curate their language to state more simply that STING likely arose through horizontal gene transfer, but it is unlikely that bacterial TM-STING is the unequivocal progenitor?

      We thank the reviewer for this comment, and we absolutely agree that we should be clearer about the distinction between convergence and convergent domain shuffling. We have changed the title and edited the text to increase clarity. In addition, we have clarified what our data does and does say about the evolutionary history of STING. We feel that our STING tree (Fig.3 C), due to a general sparseness of eukaryotic and bacterial sequences, is insufficient to confidently call if eukaryotes acquired STING by HGT or if STING was present in the LECA.

      We have added the following to clear up this issue:

      “Overall, the phylogenetic tree we constructed (Fig. 3C) suggests that there is domain-level homology between bacterial and eukaryotic STINGs, but due to sparseness and lack of a suitable outgroup, this tree does not definitively explain the eukaryotic origin of the STING domain. However, the data does clearly support a model in which convergent domain shuffling in eukaryotes and bacteria generated similar TM-STING and TIR-STING proteins independently.”

      Minor Comments

      1. Spelling error in Figure 3B and 3C: "cannoical"

      Thanks, we have corrected this error.

      1. Figure 5 could be improved to more clearly articulate the findings of the manuscript. In A, it's unclear how OAS relates to Mab21 and a reader not paying close attention might think that OAS was part of the gene duplications after Mab21 was acquired. The LECA origins of OAS are also not presented (albeit, these are still defined in the legend). In B, this panel would suggest that there was not horizontal transfer of STING from bacteria to eukaryotes but rather both domains of life received STING from a separate source. My understanding is STING did likely arise in bacteria, however, the assumption that extant TM-STING in bacteria is the predecessor of TM-STING in eukaryotes is not well supported. Similarly for the TIR domain.

      We have updated Fig. 5 to more clearly show that OAS was likely in the LECA and that eSMODS and cGLRs were HGT’d from bacteria to other eukaryotic lineages. For STING, it was not our intent to imply that the extant TM-STING in bacteria is the predecessor of TM-STING in eukaryotes, and we agree with the reviewer that this is unlikely. Although we do not have sufficient data to speak to the origin of the STING domain itself, we do feel confident in our evidence of domain shuffling. Our illustration in Fig 5B was meant to correspond to the following statement: “Drawing on a shared ancient repertoire of protein domains that includes STING, TIR, and transmembrane (TM) domains, bacteria and eukaryotes have convergently evolved similar STING proteins through domain shuffling.” We believe this inference valid and best describes our results for STING.

      1. Line 119: While the role of Mab21L1-2 are established for development, I'm unaware of a role for MB21D2 in development (or any other phenotype).

      We agree with the reviewer that MB21D2 has not been shown to have any phenotype and have corrected the wording to clarify this point.

      The line now reads “However, the immune functions of Mab21L1 and MB21D2 remain unclear, although Mab21L1they has been shown to be important for development[29–31].”

      1. Line 210: "Gamma" should be "genes"

      We have corrected this error and replaced the word.

      Reviewer #3 (Significance (Required)):

      This work is of high quality, is timely, and will have a large impact on shaping the field. The origins and evolution of antiviral immunity from bacteria to eukaryotes have been investigated from multiple angles. While the phylogeny and evolutionary trajectory of these genes have been traced in bacteria, there have been relatively fewer analyses across diverse (non-metazoan) eukaryotes. For this reason, I am confident that this manuscript will help future researchers select homologs for investigation and guide similar analyses of other bacterial defense systems.

      A particular challenge of this work is accounting for gene loss across taxa and weighing that possibility against horizontal gene transfer. The authors are conservative in their conclusions and well-reasoned. The comments I have can be addressed with changes to the writing and emphasis of certain points.

      I expect these findings to be of interest to a broad audience of evolutionary biologists, microbiologists, and immunologists.

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      Referee #3

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      Summary

      In their manuscript, Tetzlaff et al. report a substantially improved protocol for the isolation of mitochondria from the parasitic apicomplexan Toxoplasma gondii, which allowed improved sequencing and in-depth analyses of the organism's peculiarly complex mitochondrial genome. Follow-up small RNA-sequencing made it then possible to confirm the expression of fragmented mitochondrial ribosomal RNAs (mt-rRNAs) and to identify a dozen new RNA species of unknown function. The authors document not only multiple Toxoplasma mitochondrial genes that overlap one another-including rRNA and protein-coding genes, otherwise a rare occurrence-but also show that some fragmented rRNA genes recombine, effectively leading to multifunctional sequence segments, another rare feature and consequence of the peculiar architecture of the organism's mitochondrial genome. Lastly, the authors confirm that products of three genes presumed to encode pieces of the highly fragmented mitochondrial large subunit (mtLSU) rRNA do indeed assemble-presumably with additional components-into large molecular-weight complex(es).

      Major comments

      Key conclusions of the manuscript are that Toxoplasma's mitogenome encodes overlapping rRNA and protein-coding genes, divergent and chimeric rRNA pieces, and several small RNAs (sRNAs) of unknown function. Provided evidence is very solid for certain aspects of the study, but objectionable for the others as detailed below.

      1. The extent of the presented analysis of rRNAs and unassigned sRNAs seems lacking. In several places of the manuscript, the authors wonder about potential implications of divergent rRNA sequences, but their analyses appear to have been limited to sequence similarity searches. Had modelling of secondary structure interactions been attempted, this conundrum could potentially be solved. Importantly, similarity searches (to conventional rRNAs) were performed using BLASTN, which is a rather crude tool for the purpose, instead of covariance models/HMMs. It is therefore not entirely surprising that some sRNAs remained unassigned. Admittedly, recognizing rRNA motifs in divergent RNAs is a challenging issue. However, it is important to not conflate similarity to conventional rRNA and the molecule's functionality as an rRNA, i.e., sequence divergence does not necessarily disqualify the unassigned sRNAs as potential rRNAs. Mitochondrial rRNA sequences are among the most divergent, often constrained only by base-pairing, if at all, as has shown the research on kinetoplastid and diplonemid mt-rRNAs, which contain very few conserved elements and very few base pairs (e.g., Ramrath,2018,Science & Valach,2023,NAR). Even in generally less divergent cases such as green algae, the fragment encoding a highly divergent and derived 5S-like rRNA has only been recognized as such only after the mitoribosome structures were determined (Waltz,2021,Nature Comm & Tobiasson,2022,Nature Comm). It would not be surprising if the same was the case for Toxoplasma's fairly quickly evolving mitochondrial genome.
      2. The discovery of overlapping protein-coding and rRNA genes is intriguing, but the authors do not explain why it should be considered as fundamentally groundbreaking as the 'Abstract' and 'Discussion' make it sound. Gene overlaps are found in mitochondria of many organisms (e.g., fungi, animals, various protists), especially of tRNA and protein-coding genes. Even in Plasmodium, a rather close relative of Toxoplasma studied in the presented work, LSUB (rRNA) gene overlaps cob (protein) gene in the antisense orientation. Admittedly, the extent of the overlaps in Toxoplasma does seem fairly high at a first glance, but it is necessary to provide more data and, importantly, broader context to make the case that Toxoplasma overlaps are in any way special. For instance, what is the average size of the overlaps? What is their cumulative size? How does their extent (i.e., the size of overlapping coding sequences compared to the total length of coding sequences) compare to gene overlaps in other (mitochondrial) genomes? Certain additional aspects of the analysis and interpretation of protein- and/or rRNA-coding sequence overlaps are somewhat underdeveloped. For example, are the RNA-coding regions that overlap protein-coding sequences more divergent in those three conserved proteins compared to other organisms, i.e., does their function as rRNA take precedence, or is the converse the truth, i.e., are the rRNA sections more divergent? RNA19 (overlapping coxIII and cob) is the only example discussed in depth, but at least a short sentence summarizing the overall picture would be useful. As for the authors' interpretations, proposed formation of sRNA:mRNA hybrids, through which sRNAs could by implicated in facilitating mRNA recognition by the mitoribosome, is an interesting hypothesis, but a simpler scenario, which is given very little space, is that the genes happen to overlap by chance and that the overlaps are merely a consequence of genome compaction (a phenomenon that the authors rightly highlight). Without a comprehensive analysis, it is impossible to conclude which possibility is more likely. For instance, if both protein-coding and non-protein-coding sequences are divergent, this would indicate that there are few evolutionary constraints and so the fact that these sequences overlap means very little and might be just due to neutral drift, an effect of genome compaction without much consequence for the organism. Lastly, considerable significance is attributed in the study to the presence of antisense overlaps, especially between rRNA- (or sRNA-) and protein-coding genes. Yet, the overall extent of sense and antisense overlaps in the Toxoplasma mitogenome is quite similar, which-again-seems to point to a neutral evolutionary process. Can the authors elaborate if this aspect of the genome architecture was taken into account and if they regard it as of lesser relevance (and why, if so)?
      3. Another controversial issue concerns prevalent sequence block combinations and their impact on mitochondrial gene expression regulation. The authors postulate that 5′-terminal blocks of protein-coding genes always occurring near other protein-coding blocks has some functional significance. However, concluding this from just two cases (even if out of two) is quite speculative and seems like reading too much into a pattern that could very well be due to chance alone. The authors argue that the fact that 5′ ends of coxI & coxIII genes overlap is another indication of potential gene expression coordination. While it is possible to envisage such a regulation because of the 5′ termini proximity, the overlap between these genes means that their connection is hardwired into the genome, making it difficult to compare this particular case to the other sequence blocks. Arguably, it is tempting to speculate that an evolutionary pressure exists to coordinate protein expression and such a coordination does not indeed seem implausible, but the presented data and arguments are not convincing. The authors should at least expand on their ideas in the 'Discussion' and indicate potential experiments and/or which additional data could support (or refute) their speculation.
      4. My last major point concerns the experimental examination of large-molecular weight complexes and the interpretation of its results. To prove incorporation of the sRNAs into the mitoribosome, i.e., confirm that they do indeed represent rRNAs, the authors opted to investigate their distribution across a sucrose velocity gradient. This is a relatively simple and powerful approach and although it does not provide an irrevocable proof, it can be used to gain very useful insights. However, the presented design has critical flaws: 1) all sRNAs selected for Northern blot were mtLSU components, so only the mtLSU would be detected; 2) a single cytosolic LSU component was used as the control, so the distribution of cyto-SSU subunit, cyto-ribosome, and cyto-polysomes is actually unclear; 3) the authors' interpretation relies on the assumption that both mitochondrial and cytosolic ribosomes preserve their association as polysomes, but no relevant control is provided for this. For example, in Figure 6, fractions 6-14 clearly contain cyto-LSU, but polysomes (e.g., disomes) might just as well start in fractions 12-14; without additional controls, or at least continuous monitoring of UV absorbance across the gradient (to show a typical polysomal pattern), it is not guaranteed that what was detected actually included cyto-polysomes. The main concern, however, is the migration of mitoribosomes. First, the authors presume that the fractions 7-8 contain the mitochondrial monosomes because they are the fractions closest to the gradient top. This is not guaranteed. In fact, based on the experience of our and our colleagues' labs and taking into consideration the conditions used for the described experiment (more precisely, the use of Triton and deoxycholate, which in many organisms lead to mitoribosome subunit dissociation), it seems quite likely that fractions 7-9 actually contain separated mtLSU, not monosomes. Fractions in higher sucrose concentration would then represent monosomes and possibly assembly intermediates, though perhaps also a minor polysomal fraction (if the interactions are preserved in the conditions used). In particular, if the assembly process in Apicomplexa is as complex as in Euglenozoa (e.g., see papers on kinetoplastid mitoribosomes Saurer,2019,Science & Tobiasson,2021,EMBO Journal), which does not seem unlikely in Toxoplasma given the necessity to incorporate ~15 distinct rRNA pieces per mitoribosomal subunit, then the assembly intermediates might form ribonucleoprotein complexes that migrate quite far into a sucrose gradient (e.g., as in kinetoplastid mtSSU, Maslov,2007,Mol Biol Parasit). Thus, while it can be reasonably well argued that the detected RNAs co-migrate with the mtLSU (and possibly mito-monosome), the claim that they associate with mito-polysomes is open to question. More critically, investigating only sRNAs that are clearly identifiable as rRNA pieces-and all from the mtLSU at that-does not automatically prove that all sRNAs associate with the mitoribosome. To argue that the unassigned sRNAs are associated with mitoribosomes, northern blots of as many as possible (but at the very least one) unassigned sRNAs are absolutely necessary. However, I encourage the authors to consider performing additional experiments to address the issues raised in the preceding paragraph: for example, a western blot of mitochondrial ribosomal protein(s), a northern blot with at least one mtSSU rRNA fragment (since all three shown are from mtLSU), as well as a test that would examine the influence of detergents on mitoribosome stability (e.g., use milder detergents such as digitonin or dodecylmaltoside). Furthermore, if experimental conditions are identified allowing subunit dissociation, it would be possible to discern to which subunit which sRNA belongs and, importantly, whether the unassigned sRNAs are just "disguised" rRNAs (simplest explanation) or something completely different (speculative explanation seemingly favoured by the authors). All this would substantially boost the significance of the presented work.

      Minor comments

      General comments

      The word "novel" is rather overused in the manuscript. At several places, it is inappropriate, as the presented results are not as unprecedented as the manuscript makes them sound; at other places, it might be acceptable, but as the word's meaning is vague, the text would benefit from using more informative term(s) instead. The former case is exemplified by the sentence at the lane 102 "Here, we present a novel method for enriching organellar nucleic acids" - "novel" does not simply mean "new", but alludes to "unprecedented"; yet, the devised method, albeit clever, is a modification of existing approaches. The sentence at the lane 182 illustrates the latter case where "novel blocks" are mentioned, but "previously not detected blocks" would be more appropriate and to the point. The labelling of 5′ and 3′ is inconsistent throughout the manuscript - sometimes the prime is used, sometimes the apostrophe, sometimes it is the single quotation mark.

      Abstract

      In light of the raised concerns, the authors should consider carefully rewording this section, as some of the formulations are mis-representing the data and lead to unjustified generalizations.

      Introduction

      lanes 72-73: "How rRNA fragments are assembled into functional ribosomes remains an enigma." - Without proper context, this statement feels like an exaggeration. Fragmented rRNAs are known from other species and their mitoribosome structures were determined in the past few years (i.e., Tetrahymena, Polytomella, Chlamydomonas). Arguably, these mt-rRNAs are not as fragmented as in Toxoplasma, but at the very least, it is clear that base-pairing of rRNA pieces and RNA-binding proteins play significant roles in the process. If the authors think that this is not the case in apicomplexans, this should be at least alluded to, if not explained. l. 80-83: The paragraph mixes information on Plasmodium and Toxoplasma. To a non-initiated reader, this can be quite confusing. It would be useful to specify which species the authors refer to. l. 83-86: The information on the atovaquone impact lacks reference(s). l. 105: "demonstrated that they are incorporated into polysomes" - In light of the issues raised above and if the authors opt not to expand the work as suggested above, this claim (and similar throughout the text) should be emended. l. 106-108: "allowed us to identify novel transcripts, many of which originate from block boundaries and contain mixed origins from coding and noncoding regions." - This sentence would benefit from rephrasing because it is difficult to comprehend (the sequences overlap protein-coding and non-protein-coding regions, but do not contain any origins).

      Results

      l. 115-117: "cell fractionation method that takes advantage of the differential cholesterol content in plasma membranes" - Does Toxoplasma contain cholesterol? Perhaps it might be more practical to refer to sterols (since the effect of digitonin is not limited to cholesterol). l. 147: "significant increase" - It might be useful to specify that the increase was ~42-fold, so that readers can see the extent of improvement; it has the advantage of really highlighting the achievement. l. 180: "have been lettered from A-V" - Rewording to "designated by letters from A to V" works better. l. 213-218: This section is essentially a discussion so should be moved the corresponding section of the manuscript. l. 262-265: cotranscripts/transcript isoforms - It is a matter of nomenclature, but it seems more appropriate to refer to "a transcript containing LSUF and LSUG regions" instead of a co-transcript, because in the latter case, one then expects that these two will be separated in a following processing step, which-as the authors demonstrate-is clearly not the case for the vast majority of the population of these rRNA pieces. Given the prevalence of the larger pieces, it seems more appropriate to refer to the "smaller transcript isoforms" as possible degradation products and not isoforms, which implies some kind of functional relevance. l. 281: In the section "Discovery of novel rRNA fragments", it might be useful to provide a graphical representation or at least a sentence summarizing all different categories of sRNAs. For instance, what is missing from the text is that there are 11 species for which homologous sequences in "conventional" rRNAs were not identified and out of these only 4 seem to have sequence homologs in other Apicomplexa. In addition, in Table S5, the authors could indicate where these homologs are located in Plasmodium, since these appear to be newly identified candidates for Plasmodium sRNA species/rRNA pieces. l. 313-314: "In general, block combinations lead to the expression of novel RNAs in T. gondii that are not found in apicomplexan species with a simpler genome organization. " - It is not clear where this generalization comes from: Fig.S5A shows that RNA5, RNA7, RNA23t extend across block borders (but based on Table S5 are not unique to Toxoplasma), while only RNA31 and RNA34 are both absent from other Apicomplexa and extend across block borders - yet, this is still less than half of all newly identified sRNAs. In addition, the novelty claim is not clear either: based on the presented data, several sRNAs that overlap are clearly present in other apicomplexans (e.g., RNA1 and RNA2) and thus are not completely new, but merely more divergent in Toxoplasma, because parts of their sequence have been replaced by the shared sequence segment. l. 319-320: "None of the three RNAs had detectable homologies to rRNA." - Specify to which rRNAs were the sequences compared to make the inference. l. 320-321: "For all five coding-noncoding RNAs, homologs are present in the mitochondrial genome of P. falciparum." - Does this mean that they remain unassigned in Plasmodium as well or that they have not been previously recognized in Plasmodium? Confusingly, RNA34 is labeled as not having homologs in Apicomplexa in Table S5. In addition, mentioning "coding-noncoding RNAs" is somewhat misleading because some of the sRNAs clearly code for mt-rRNA pieces. l. 335-338: This section contains contradictory statements that should be reformulated. A couple of sentences prior, the authors experimentally determined that RNA19 actually overlaps only a single protein-coding sequence (coxI), but then refer to the original and demonstrably incorrect annotation of RNA19 overlapping also the cob gene. l. 341: The authors mention similarity to rRNA, but do not specify which rRNA. Referring to similarity to known or conserved rRNA sequences or segments would work better. Still, the region of the block S (i.e., 5′ proximal segment of RNA19) falls into the region between helices H51 and H60 of the domain III in the LSU secondary structure, which is sequence-wise relatively poorly conserved-especially in mitochondrial rRNAs-so sequence divergence is not unexpected. l. 366: "Note that RNA1 and RNA2 are registered according to their shared sequence" - Unclear what "registered" means here. l. 416-421: Specifying when reference is made to cytosolic vs. mitochondrial monosomes and polysomes would make this section and the related parts of the 'Discussion' clearer. Also, the authors clearly state here that there might be technical reasons for what they observed, but ignore this possibility in the 'Discussion' and assume that they did indeed separate polysomes.

      Discussion

      l. 444: "the reshuffling appears limited to specific block borders and is not random" - How many biological replicates of nanopore sequencing were performed? Did the authors test other T. gondii strains? What about other apicomplexan species? Unless this has been done, there is no demonstration that the block order and block-joining frequencies documented here are (more or less) constant and that block order is under some kind of purifying selection. Hence, the conclusion that the block borders are not random is debatable. Arguably, it is not random in this particular experiment, but neither is it limited to specific blocks because most combinations have been detected (even if at low frequency; Figure S1). l. 450: "One intriguing finding is the obligate linkage of coding sequences" - Presuming this sentence is about protein-coding sequences, this should be reformulated because it mis-represents the actual data. Figure 2 clearly shows that protein-coding blocks are often linked to rRNA-coding blocks. l. 454: "balancing the expression of coxI and coxIII" - Not clear where this information comes from, as it is not from the cited papers. l. 460-461: "Our small RNA sequencing results revealed another potential advantage of the block organization of the T. gondii mitochondrial genome" - This should be reformulated. Clearly, the discovery of the 15 sRNAs was facilitated by the recognition of block order, but the presented argument is a bit confusing: how does the organization into blocks provide an "advantage" and what kind of advantage do the authors mean? (An evolutionary advantage or an advantage related to gene expression regulation or an advantage for their sRNA-Seq data mapping?) l. 462-478: Multiple explanations are provided for the existence of sRNAs at block borders and what these sRNAs represent. While I agree that it is important to consider all options, even the more debatable ones, the authors seem to forget the simplest possibility: the identified unassigned sRNAs could well be rRNA pieces and them being encoded across block borders is not any more, nor any less surprising than the fact that protein-coding genes are encoded across (several) gene blocks. l. 485: "antisense RNA surveillance" - In contrast to the nuclei, the existence of a genuine antisense RNA "surveillance" mechanism in mitochondria is uncertain. Given what is known from mitochondria of other organisms (especially plants and kinetoplastids), it seems more likely that certain regions of sense and antisense transcripts are protected from exonucleases by RNA-binding proteins (RBPs such as PPR and related helix-turn-helix repeat proteins, e.g., Toxoplasma's homologs HPRs discovered in Plasmodium [Hillebrand,2018,NAR]), leading to RNAs that partially overlap, but are actually protected from base-pairing by these RBPs. This is not taken into account in any presented explanation of the phenomenon of antisense gene overlaps. l. 490: "start codon. while also " - Typo: should be a comma, not a dot. l. 500: "discovery of block-border sRNAs highlights the complex regulatory mechanisms at play" - This should be reformulated: the claim is very speculative, since no hard data are provided on such regulatory mechanisms in the presented work. l. 504: "sRNAs are incorporated into polysome-size structures" - In light of the concerns raised in the preceding section, this should be reformulated. l. 539-540: The closing sentence should be reformulated. The mitogenome organization in blocks per se does not "allow" the sequences to function as both mRNA and rRNA. Rather, it seems to be a combination of 1) the compactness of the genome that seems to lead to the re-use of certain segments in both mRNA and rRNA or in two distinct rRNAs, and 2) the apparently dynamic nature of the genome (due to recombination among gene blocks) that brings together certain combinations of gene blocks.

      Methods

      l. 607: Only agarose gel separation is mentioned, but most experiments shown are of denaturing PAGE separations (which is actually mentioned in several figure legends). l. 636: "Paste your materials and methods section here." - To be removed. l. 662: "NUMTS" - This should be "NUMTs"; the same typo occurs at multiple places in the 'Methods' section. l. 704: "Homology search for novel transcript annotation" - Somewhat confusing title; it is possible to guess what the authors likely mean, but it is unclear. l. 715: "New block annotations can be found in GenBank." - 1) The whole community would very likely appreciate if the GenBank entries were properly annotated (i.e., genes added), not just showed sequences as is currently the case for all Namasivayam,2021,Genome Res entries (not sure about the authors' own entries because they were inaccessible). If impossible to update the entries of the Namasivayam,2021,Genome Res study, then just submitting anew properly annotated GenBank entries would be appropriate. 2) It was not possible to properly assess some of the claims in the manuscript because access to the files was not provided to reviewers, nor have been the newly submitted GenBank entries made public by the authors.

      Figures

      Figure 1B - The load of total proteins into each well is unclear. Ponceau stain does not show identical loads, so it is unclear what the reader should take as the reference. Figure 1D -The phrasing "fragments found in the pellet fractions of the protocol" is a bit awkward. The fragments are in the pellet fractions after plasma membrane permeabilization and benzonase incubation, not in the "fractions of the protocol". Figure 2 - The chosen hues of red and green (for coxI and coxIII) are of such similar intensity that they are virtually indistinguishable to ~2% of the readers. A colourblind-friendly palette would be very much appreciated. For guidelines, see for example: https://www.nature.com/articles/nmeth.1618 . Figure 3 - The use of lowercase letters to indicate the probes (instead of the full probe names) is a nice idea and simplifies the reading experience, but the use of the same letter 'a' in different figures for different probes is confusing. Labeling each probe with a unique ID/letter and indicating this ID in the Table S6 (e.g., by adding an additional column) would work much better. Figure 4A - The wiggle lines for rRNAs are coloured in purple shades, which contrast with the grey colour that is assigned to them in the Figure 2. Keeping a consistent colour palette across figures would be preferable. Figure 4C - If the E.coli sequence was on the outer lines, the Toxoplasma sequences could be closer to one another, which would make it easier for the reader to understand the alignment. Figure 5 - Purple shades for rRNA are somewhat difficult to discern from the blue cob. Also, the 'reference' wiggles would work better if demarcated as a key because this would make it visually clearer that they are shared by the A and B panels.

      Supplementary Information

      Figure S1 - An explanation what the A and B panels show is missing. Figure S5 - It is difficult to appreciate the extent of overlaps with protein-coding sequences if these are missing from the figure (unlike in Fig.5). Table S4 - Nuclear genome accession number is missing. Add "mitochondrial" to the label of the column "sequence blocks". Table S5 - 1) It is unclear what the 'rRNA homology' refers to. (It does not seem to be the nomenclature used by Feagin et al.,2012, PLoS One.) 2) An extension of the table (or perhaps a separate table) with the cumulative size of mtLSU and mtSSU rRNA pieces, as well as unassigned sRNAs, would be useful. 3) It should also be stated somewhere if homologs of any of the rRNA pieces known from Plasmodium are missing in Toxoplasma. (If so, they could be among the newly identified short RNAs.)

      Referees cross-commenting

      Referee #2 rightly pointed out that basic statistics on nanopore reads, as well as omitted methodological details (e.g., minimap2 and SAMtools settings) would be welcome. Similarly, Figure 2 should indicate the upstream/downstream block orientation. If the authors intend to position their work as a major achievement in mitochondrial enrichment for Toxoplasma (as the text currently indicates), I also agree that a comparison with previously published protocols would not be out of place.

      Significance

      Speaking from personal experience, devising a protocol for such a substantial mitochondrial enrichment, as the study presents, is a great technical achievement, which cannot be understated, especially for a protist or any somewhat unconventional model organism. The mitoribosomal community will certainly take notice of the improved catalogue of mitochondrial rRNA pieces, while the discovery of overlapping protein-coding and rRNA genes will be of interest to those working in the field of mitochondrial evolutionary biology. The study already provides a significant upgrade from the previous attempts to understand the nature of the mitochondrial genome in Toxoplasma (and in Apicomplexa in general), and is well positioned to become a source of inspiration for future studies in the field. However, being at a crossroad of genomics, evolution, and molecular biology, it has certain limitations in its current form, mainly because the evolutionary and molecular biology aspects would benefit from further development (see 'Major concerns'). The text is generally well written and accompanying figures well designed, but clarifications, broader context, and less speculative interpretation would be welcome (as detailed mostly in 'Minor concerns'). To justify publication in a journal with a broad readership, the authors should provide additional experimental evidence to strengthen their case and generalize their findings.

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      Referee #2

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      Summary:

      Bircan et al. employ phylogeny-based methods and machine learning to determine positions in the Calcium Sensing Receptor (CaSR) that are specific for this receptor compared to those residues that are important for CaSR and related subfamilies. Using machine learning, the authors predict whether selected mutations in CaSR will lead to loss- or gain-of-function and compare this with experimental results from literature.

      Minor comments:

      • line 13/14: 'there are still gaps in our understanding of its specific residues' - possibly change to 'there are still gaps in our understanding of the specific function of its residues'?

      • line 17/18: 'The analysis revealed exceptional conservation of the CaSR subfamily, with high SDP scores being critical in receptor activation and pathogenicity' - are the SDP scores critical or some aspect of the receptor, i.e. the residues with high SDP scores?

      • lines 42-44: 'L-amino acid binding site at the interdomain cleft of LB1-LB2 and multiple Ca2+ amino acid binding sites on the VFT domain' - Should this be 'Ca2+ binding sites' instead?

      • lines 45-47 'While Ca2+ is the composite agonist for the CaSR, L-amino acids promote receptor activation along with Ca2+, but they are not able to activate the receptor alone'. - Unclear

      • lines 139, 146 'a ML tree' - should be 'an ML tree'

      • line 153 'γ-aminobutyric acid-B receptorsreceptors' - remove 'receptors'

      • line 162-164 'Comparison analysis of branch lengths (Patil, 2021) among common species between CaSR, GPRC6A and taste receptors shows that the CaSR subfamily is significantly more conserved than its closest subfamilies' - could you please give a very short explanation here for the non-specialists?

      • Fig 2A is unfortunately mostly unreadable. I would suggest replacing panel A with (an) alternative panel(s) clearly showing the stated results and moving the tree into the supplementary and/or making it available in a format that can be studied more closely.

      • Fig. 4A, right side. Both the x-axis and the bar colour are labelled 'SDP scores', but they don't agree with each other. Please clarify what is what.

      • Fig. 5 the numbers associated with the colour scales are unfortunately not readable

      • lines 394/5: 'Because CaSR is a highly conserved subfamily, any substitution on the receptor disrupts the function of the receptor and causes either GoF or LoF mutations.' - do you mean that no mutation in CaSR may be neutral?

      • Fig 7 is mentioned earlier than Fig 6.

      • line 516/7 and 532/3: ' we repeated the train-validation-test splitting procedure fifty times' - repetitive

      • Fig 6: what are the features in the bottom panel of 6B?

      Significance

      General assessment: The study uses computational methods to assess the importance of residues in the CaSR for function. The results are compared with the literature, as far as data are available. The study could be made more accessible to non-experts by putting results in context, more explanations in the figure legends and by making sure that the results mentioned in the text can easily be followed by looking at the figures. Another option could be to change subtitles in the results section to summarise the main findings of the section.

      Advance: This study uses phylogeny-based methods to advance our understanding of the role of residues in a GPCR and adds to our pool of techniques available for addressing such questions.

      Audience: The described research should be of interest for researchers working on CaSR, those interested in the evolution of GPCRs, and those studying the impact of point mutations in GPCRs on function and/or human health. I do not have sufficient expertise to evaluate the phylogeny-based methods used in this manuscript. At present the manuscript seems more likely to be of interest to a specialised audience, which could very likely be changed by making the manuscript more accessible to GPCR researchers that don't have a background in phylogeny-based methods.

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      Reply to the reviewers

      Reviewer #1 (Evidence, reproducibility, and clarity):

      Summary: In this work, Kant and co-workers describe a two drugs regimen for therapeutics treatment of SARS-CoV-2 infection. SARS-CoV-2 infection of cells is dependent on the cleavage of the spike S protein by cellular proteases that prime S allowing the envelop protein to fuse of host membrane during entry and delivery of the viral genome to the target cell. The most important cellular protease is TMPRSS2 located at the surface of the cell. However, in cells with low TMPRSS2 levels, Cathepsins, located in endosomes have been shown to be able to also prime S. The therapeutic strategy of the authors relies on the combined usage of an inhibitor of TMPRSS2 (nafamostat) together with a compound that impairs endosomal maturation (apilimod) which is a key step for the activation of cathepsin. The rationale is that a dual regimen would be more effective to inhibit SARS-COV-2 infection. Using cell lines and a combination of SARS-CoV2 infection and pseudotyped VSV particles (VSV virus where the glycoprotein has been replaced by the SARS-CoV-2 spike proteins), the authors could show that a two-drug regimen was more efficient in preventing SARS-CoV-2 infection compared to single drug regimen. The authors next employed a mouse model of SARS-CoV-2 infection and similarly could show that bi-therapy was more efficient in preventing infection. Importantly, the authors describe a new formulation of the drugs that improve stability of the compounds and shelve life which could be of great benefit with respect to storage needs in therapeutic setting of the population.

      While the reviewer thinks the work is potentially very relevant, some of the conclusions are not fully supported by the data and additional experiments/quantifications should be performed to improve rigor and fully support the author conclusions.

      Major comments:

      • Throughout the paper, statistical analysis of the results should be performed to support the conclusion of the authors. Currently many experiments do not have statistical analysis and P values or statical significance are missing in most of the figures: Figure 1B, 1D, 4A, 5B, and S2. RESPONSE: As requested by the reviewer, the results of the statistical analysis of the differences are now reported for Figures 1B, 1D, 4A, 5B, and S2. There is no change in our conclusions as first reported in the original manuscript.

      • Quantification of the various pathology observed in mice should be quantified and scored. In the current version, the authors provided a supplementary table describing the pathology observed in individual mice upon SARS-CoV-2 infection. Adapted scoring of the different pathologies should be performed to obtain a statistical view of the pathology induced by SARS-CoV-2 and how this is prevented by the mono and bi-therapy approaches. RESPONSE: The mouse model employed in the present study, i.e. SARS-CoV-2 Beta infection in BALB/c mice, is characterised by a limited and short-lived viral infection of the lungs and rather subtle pathological changes, as described in detail in our previous publication (Kant et al., 2021. Viruses).

      We chose this model because it better mimics the typical (short-lived) respiratory infection observed in human patients than the K18-hACE2 model where infection is detected in nasal mucosa and lung parenchyma, generally sparing the respiratory epithelium, but also spreads to the brain (Seehusen et al., Viruses, 2022; De Neck et al., Viruses, 2023).

      In our model, infection of the lungs (i.e., alveoli) occurs strictly in association with infection of the airways, including the tracheal, bronchial, and bronchiolar epithelium, like the in hamster model. Pulmonary infection is, however, short-lived and wanes off around day 4. The histopathological changes, i.e. degenerative changes, and an inflammatory response, are at best mild in the untreated mice and not observed at all in successfully treated mice. (as summarized for each individual animal in Supplementary Table 2). . For these reasons, this information cannot be quantified by morphometry (which would be the most objective, hence best approach) or scored (a more subjective approach that would only be valid with distinct quantitative differences).

      Nevertheless, and in agreement with the reviewer that a quantitative approach is useful where possible we provide results from morphometry and to confirm the reduction in the degree of tissue damage (i.e., the extent of apoptotic death of infected respiratory epithelial cells; see comment below).

      • Additionally, table 1, is very difficult to read as mice are classified in 3 experiments but this does not match with the individual figures, making it very hard to look for the phenotypes. Is it an order issue within the table or are murine infection experiments performed in the order described in table 1? In this case, can the data be compared between the experiments as some conditions belong to experiment 2 and other to experiment 3? Given the low number of mice, do the experiments have statistical power? RESPONSE: We agree with the reviewer’s assessment of the figure and have therefore modified the graphs in Figure 2 B, to specifically relate experiments and data, by using circles for Experiment set 1 and squares for Experiment set 2.

      We can confirm the reported results have statistical power, particularly important given the constrain due to the low number of animals we were limited to use. As noted in the figure legends, that now includes the results from the statistical analysis, each of the three experiments included at least three control infected mice treated with vehicle. The infection levels in all the control vehicle treated infected mice are very similar in all three experiments.

      • To show that treatment of mice at 3 or 6 hpi indeed reduce the number of clv-capsase3 positive cells, the authors should perform a complete quantification and not limit their analysis to one representative tissue section from one animal. RESPONSE: Following the reviewer’s recommendation, we have now taken a quantitative approach in addition to illustrating the difference in cleaved caspase-3 expression. We have kept the images that illustrate the effect in tissue sections (Figure 4C).

      Briefly, we compared the extent of viral NP and cleaved caspase-3 expression between lungs of vehicle treated mice and mice treated with the drugs from 6 hpi onwards (3 mice per condition), using morphometry. Indeed, there was no significant difference in the extent of viral antigen NP expression in the lungs of the two groups of mice (Figure 4 B and C), which supports the PCR results representing viral RNA levels (Fig. Figure 4 A). However, there was a significant difference in the extent of cleaved caspase-3 expression in the consecutive sections. The results are shown in the new Figure 4D.

      • the authors insist on the new formulation that improves drug stability. To make this statement, this will need to be actively tested both in cell culture and in animal models: currently, the authors test the drugs stored 3 months at 25c or -20c and show that they remain active, but in this experiment freshly made drug was not directly tested in parallel. RESPONSE: As requested by the reviewer, we have extended our tests, and confirm our original view that the new formulation improves drug stability. Now shown in revised Figure 1C and D, we found equivalent inhibition in the cell infection assay using freshly made drugs and drugs stored at room temperature for 2 months.

      • Additionally, to make such a statement, different concentration of the drugs should be tested to calculate a IC50 for freshly prepared drug and stored drugs (as the current concentration tested might be at saturating concentration). RESPONSE: As requested by the reviewer, we have determined the IC50 for infection in cells of the drugs freshly prepared or stored. As reported in the revised Figure 1D, there were no differences detected.

      • Finally, the mouse experiments are performed with freshly made compounds and if the authors want to highlight the new formulation and increased stability, experiments in mice should be performed also with stored compounds. RESPONSE: We respectfully disagree with the reviewer on the need to perform additional in vivo experiments. We find no differences in the IC50 antiviral activity of the drugs prepared with our formulation and tested with cells in culture, whether fresh or kept for up to 2 months at room temperature. Given these observations, we feel that we cannot justify further animal experiments, neither ethically nor financially, using the same drugs with the same ab initio antiviral activity.

      • Alternatively, statement on drug stability should be removed or strongly tuned down from text. RESPONSE: We believe that the updated information included in the revised manuscript showing no difference in the IC50s of the compounds freshly prepared and stored at room temperature fully supports our original statement.

      • Statistical analysis on figure 2b should be done between Nafamostat alone and dual treatment to show that both drugs are cooperative in term of antiviral activities RESPONSE: We have carried the requested statistical analysis (Figure 2 B and C) and confirm that dual treatment is not only cooperative, but it also shows synergy, as we originally showed in our published work (Kreutzberger et al., Journal of Virology, 2021).

      • The authors state "A quantitative assessment of the in vivo synergy is shown here by the enhanced decrease of viral RNA in lungs of mice treated with both drugs at very low concentrations (Figure 2 B, compare using 2 mg/Kg apilimod dimesylate and 4 mg/Kg nafamostat mesylate alone, and in combination)." I guess, the authors want to comment on the fact that 0.2 mg/kg of apilimod and 0.4 mg/kg of nafamostat are as potent as 2 and 4 mg/kg. is that correct? If YES, to make this statement, bi therapy should be compared to mono therapy at the same concentration. RESPONSE: We apologise for not being clearer in the way we presented the information in our original version of the manuscript.

      Briefly, we compared the effect of high and low bi-therapy doses to the effect of Apilimod or Nafamostat used as single drugs at the highest concentrations. When administered alone, high dose Apilimod did not reduce infection. Nafamostat alone, even at 4 mg/Kg, decreases but does not completely block infection. When combined, even at low doses, the two drugs have a stronger antiviral effect than Nafamostat alone (and of course Apilimod, which was ineffective). Importantly, if the combined effect of the two drugs was merely additive, i.e. the arithmetic sum of the single effects, the addition of Apilimod, which alone has no in vivo antiviral activity, would not have improved the effect of Nafamostat. Instead, even at 10 times lower doses, the bi therapy significantly outperformed the single drug Nafamostat. Thus, the effect is synergistic (i.e. the effect of combined drugs is stronger than the mere sum of effects of each single drug).

      • when drugs are injected after infection (Fig 4), the drugs are not active. In fact, unless the reviewer mis-understood the plot, the mouse are even more infected compared to vehicle. The authors wrote that both regimes (3 and 6hpi) are equally less effective compared to drug administered during infection. The authors should write that both regimes are equally non protective. RESPONSE: We thank the reviewer for pointing out this imprecision. The modified text now reads “Both regimes, compared to drug administration at the time of virus inoculation, were equally ineffective in reducing the viral RNA load and NP expression in lungs as determined at 48 h.p.i. (Figure 4A, B).” (Line 236-238).

      • If drugs are not active after infection, does this approach really represent a therapeutic solution. The authors suggest that it does by limiting pathologies, but this needs to be better quantified (see comment above). RESPONSE: Our results suggest that application of the drugs post infection reduced the cytopathic effect of the virus in the respiratory epithelium in the lungs, reflected by a reduced extent of apoptotic cell death in association with infection. The finding is supported by quantitative morphometric analysis as shown in the new Figure 4D (see also comment above).

      • In the rebound experiment: unless the reviewer misunderstood, it appears that no conclusion can be driven from this experiment. Q-PCR data for vehicle animal a 4dpi show no sign of infection, so the experiment is not really interpretable since control animals are no longer positive. The authors suggest that there is less pathologies but this needs to be better quantified (see comment above). RESPONSE: We have tried to better word the rationale and interpretations of this experiment in the text. Following our drug treatments, viral antigen is still present in epithelial cells within the nasal mucosa, we also surmised that a small number of intact virions could have remained attached to the epithelial cells, trapped within their endosomes, or still within the environment surrounding the cells, any of them capable of triggering infection after removal of the drugs. Thus, the rationale behind the rebound experiment was to ask whether such remaining potentially intact virions could lead to a full reinfection of the lung two days after the treatment was stopped - which we found did not.

      We found that the virus did not regain full infectivity once the drug treatment was interrupted, resulting in undetectable lung PCR signal and very limited, sporadic antigen signal in the lung tissue.

      Minor comments:

      • I__t will make reading easier if the authors always mentioned which drugs inhibit what. For example: addition of the TMPRSS2 inhibitor nafamostat etc.... or addition of apilimod to block cathepsins activities..... __RESPONSE: Done

      • Figure 1: make a comment in the text that cells with low TMPRSS2 are more sensitive to the cathepsin inhibitor apilimod and vice versa, cells with high TMPRSS2 are more sensitive to nafamostat. This is expected and it could be highlighted. RESPONSE: Done

      • Figure 2B: how are the data normalized? should not RdRp, E and SubE all have a mean at 100% for the vehicle? RESPONSE: Done. Data are now normalized to the mean of RdRp measurements (which is indicated as 100%).

      • Line 211: something is missing here "when (Fig 2...) RESPONSE: Corrected

      • Line 221 should figure 4c RESPONSE: Corrected

      • Figure legends should only contain the details of the experimental design but should not contain description and interpretation of data. This is very minor and maybe a question of taste. __RESPONSE: __ Our figure legends are descriptive for some results and are in accordance with the style of PLOS Pathogens, the journal we are aiming this study.

      Editorial note:

      Referees cross-commenting: The other reviewers have highlighted the same limitations concerning the lack of quantifications of the immunochemistry and also the lack of robust statistical analyses. This should be highlighted to the authors as it appears to be the minimum to do prior publication. This should not take too much time as the data are in principle already available

      Reviewer #1 (Significance):

      The work by Kant and co-workers is potentially very significant but some limitations (as highlighted above) impair the impact of the work in his current version. The approach employing a two-drug regimen to combat SARS-COV-2 infection by targeting both TMPRSS2 and cathepsin activities is not new and was described before by the authors themselves. Employing this approach in an animal model is new and the new formulation improving drug stability and facilitating storage could be a game changer in therapeutic setting of patients. As such, this work could be highly significant and of broad interest. However, additional experiments and clarifications are needs to elevate this work to high impact standards. The reviewer believes that the requested experiments are easily achievable by the research teams of this project and think that the project will ultimately have a strong impact in the field.


      Reviewer #2 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity):

      In this paper, the authors tested the antiviral activity of a combination of compounds by intranasal instillation in a mouse model of SARS-CoV-2. The two compounds used are PIKfyve Kinase inhibitor apilimod dimesylate, which inhibits endosomal maturation, and TMPRSS2 protease inhibitor nafamostat mesylate. The authors have previously shown that a combination of these two inhibitors acts synergistically to prevent entry and infection of SARS-CoV-2 in cell culture. Here, they further investigated the anti-SARS-CoV-2 activity of their combination of compounds by in vivo testing. They used Balb/c mice intranasally inoculated with the Beta variant of SARS-CoV-2. Their data show that concurrent administration of the combo together with the virus prevented lung infection without blocking nasal replication. Delayed administration of the compounds did not reduce replication in the lungs. The only effect was a decrease in bronchiolar cell death. Furthermore, they also tested the stability of the combo at room temperature and their data indicate that these compounds can be kept at room temperature for at least 3 months without losing antiviral activity, at least when resuspended in water. These data are potentially interesting, but they need to be consolidated by additional experiments.

      Major comments:

      • The authors only present immunohistochemistry to investigate viral replication in the nose. A quantitative analysis of replication would allow for better conclusions concerning viral replication in this organ. RESPONSE: We appreciate the reviewer’s comment and the wish to see viral antigen expression quantified in the nasal mucosa. As described below, however, practicalities associated with sample preparation prevented us from performing morphometric analysis. The complementary quantification of viral replication requires viral RNA by PCR. Unfortunately, we had not planned this aspect of the study and therefore did not collect the required fresh samples from nasal turbinates required for this analysis. Although interesting to investigate, we feel this is not vital for reaching the interpretation and conclusions derived from the current study. We thereby don’t think that this would be sufficient reason to undertake another round of infections, particularly taking into consideration that it would require sacrificing another significant number of animals.

      We could extend our morphometric analysis used in the lung and adapt it to the nasal mucosa. However, we are of the opinion that this would not provide trustworthy results. The main reason for this limitation is due to a problem that occurs during decalcification and paraffin embedding of the heads, which results in large variations in the area of the nasal mucosa as well as the olfactory epithelium in each section in different animals (Figure 3C provides some evidence of this).

      Briefly, we cut the entire heads longitudinally in the midline with a diamond saw and then gently decalcify the two halves of the head. This is followed by paraffin embedding. At some point during the process some of the thin and soft bits of nasal mucosa can become twisted and distorted, moving away from the cut surface exposed to the microtome blade. Therefore, the paraffin sections (appr. 3 µm thick) will in their majority not comprise full sections of the nasal mucosa. An objective comparative quantification of the extent of NP expression in the nasal mucosa would require (nearly) the entire mucosa to be assessed.

      • Complementary investigation on a potential anti-inflammatory effect of the drugs would also be welcome. Furthermore, it is surprising that the authors did not report potential weight changes. RESPONSE: Our mouse model, i.e. SARS-CoV-2 Beta infection in BALB/C mice, is characterised by the limited and short-lived viral infection of the lungs, rather subtle pathological changes and a limited inflammatory response strictly associated with the presence of viral antigens, as we previously described (Kant et al., 2021. Viruses). Hence, other animal models (for example the hamster model) would be more appropriate. Though potentially interesting, such investigations are beyond the current scope of our studies.

      In our study, the animal weight did not change during infection, in agreement with our earlier published work with the same animal model (Kant et al., 2021. Viruses). These data is now included in this manuscript.

      • It would have been interesting to complete the experiments with a demonstration that the compounds block viral transmission. RESPONSE: While it would be interesting to see whether the combined drugs also block viral transmission, such an experiment would require the use of a different animal model (possibly hamsters), an endeavour that is beyond the scope of our study. In our experience BALB/C mice infected with SARS-CoV-2 Beta variant do not transmit the virus. We have co-housed naïve BALB/C mice for 4 days with BALB/C mice intranasally challenged with 6 x 10^4 PFU SARS-CoV-2 Beta and have no evidence of virus transmission to the naïve mice (unpublished results). Similar results with C57BL/6 WT mice were obtained by Pan et al., Signal Transduction and Targeted Therapy, 2021).

      Minor comments:

      • The second paragraph of the introduction is not clear. It needs to be re-written. Furthermore, there is no evidence that Calu3 cells do not express cathepsins. RESPONSE: We have clarified this section of the introduction as follows:

      “It has been shown previously that SARS-CoV-2 infection can be blocked by serine protease inhibitors such as nafamostat mesylate in cells that express high levels of TMPRSS2 but very low or undetectable levels of cathepsin B/L (e.g. Calu-3 cells)5-7. In cells that instead express cathepsins but not TMPRSS2 (e.g. VeroE6 or A549 cells), infection depends on the delivery of endocytosed viruses to endo/lysosomes, a process that can be efficiently inhibited by drugs that interfere with endosome maturation and acidification such as Bafilomycin A1, chloroquine or ammonium chloride”.

      • Figure 4C: Is there any explanation for the lack of apoptosis? The authors should at least provide some hypotheses. Furthermore, this figure is quoted as Figure 4B in the text instead of Figure 4C. RESPONSE: For the revised manuscript, we have quantified the extent of apoptosis by a morphometric analysis of cleaved caspase-3 expression in the lung sections (now provided in new Figure 4C).

      We presently do not have an explanation for the reduction in the cytopathic effect of the virus, particularly in respiratory epithelial cells. This is an area of research we plan to continue investigating in future. We have commented on this in the Discussion session of the revised manuscript (Line 301-307).

      • Line 199: The authors claim that the effect of their combo is synergistic. However, this cannot be clearly concluded without appropriate additional experiments where they vary the concentration of the compounds. RESPONSE: The work we report here with mice is a follow up of our earlier work demonstrating the antiviral synergy of nafamostat and apilimod with cells in culture (Kreutzberger et al., Journal of virology, 2021). See comments to Reviewer 1.

      • Line 211: The sentence is incomplete RESPONSE: Fixed.

      • The lettering in the panels needs to be doublechecked. RESPONSE: Done.

      Reviewer #2 (Significance):

      __General assessment: __Finding new antiviral against SARS-CoV-2 remains a priority to fight against COVID-19. The validation of a combination of two molecules showing a partial antiviral activity in vivo is therefore of interest. However, this combo does not block viral replication in the nose and is inefficient when the treatment is added after infection, limiting the use of these molecules to prevent people in contact with COVID-19 patient of being infected. However, the authors should demonstrate that their molecules block viral transmission.

      __ Advance:__ The number of antivirals used in the clinics to treat COVID-19 patients remains extremely limited. Increasing the number of drugs available is still sorely needed. Audience: This paper potentially of large interest since the general population has been well informed of and/or have experienced COVID-19. Therefore, it is of interest beyond the virology and infectiology fields.

      Reviewer #3 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity):

      Summary: In manuscript reference RC-2023-02113, the authors addressed the impact of inhibitors of cell host factors as therapeutics against SARS-CoV-2 infection. They tested the combined inhibition of the enzymatic activities of the endosomal PIKfyve phosphoinositide kinase and the serine protease TMPRSS2, known as essential to meditate viral entry pathways: Conclusion: They showed a reduction, as assessed in vitro experiment (cell line) and in lung infection in mice intranasally- infected with SARS-CoV-2 beta. Moreover, the reduced viral infection is, as expected, associated to lower cell damage.

      Reviewer #3 (Significance (Required)):

      Positive points:

      • The topic is of interest.
      • Robust impact of the treatment although kinetic analysis post infection/symptoms are missing. Limitations:

      • Such a robust level of infection in this model (female BALB/c mice) is surprising, owing that the ACE is not the appropriate homologue. RESPONSE: We respectfully disagree with this concern. The BALB/c strain employed in the current study can be infected by the natural Beta variant, with mutations in the viral spike that allow it to bind to the murine ACE2 receptor and hence can efficiently infect the mice, as we previously described (Kant et al., 2021. Viruses).

      We chose the wt BalB/c model as it better mimics natural respiratory infection in human patients, while the transgene K18-hACE2 model also results in strong infection of the brain. As discussed above, while infection with the Beta variant is efficient, it is not associated with clinical signs, it has only limited pathological effects (mild tissue damage and very limited inflammatory response) and is naturally cleared after 4 days. The ancestral Wuhan strain of SARS-CoV-2 as well as most other variants, in contrast, are unable to bind murine ACE, hence would require the use of transgenic mouse models expressing the human ACE receptor.

      • It would have been interesting to complete the experiments with a demonstration that the compounds block viral transmission. RESPONSE: We apologize for our oversight of not including the statistical analyses in the original version of the manuscript. As requested, it is now included. We are pleased to confirm that in all cases, the differences were statistically significant between presence and absence of combined drugs, and fully support our original conclusions.
    1. Note: This response was posted by the corresponding author to Review Commons. The content has not been altered except for formatting.

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      Reply to the reviewers

      We appreciate the thoughtful comments of the reviewers. We have revised the manuscript according to these comments as detailed below.

      Reviewer #1 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      Efficient proteostasis in cells demands efficient clearing of damaged or misfolded proteins, and an important pathway involved in such clearance is the ubiquitin-proteasome pathway. In this system, proteins are tagged with ubiquitin to target them for degradation by the 26S proteasome complex. The conventional 26S proteasome complex consists of a core particle (CP or 20S proteasome) and one or two regulatory particles (RP, or 19S proteasome) to form the singly or doubly-capped proteasome, respectively. Proteasome assembly is a well-orchestrated process that requires proper stoichiometry of proteasome subunits and dedicated proteasome assembly chaperones. This is maintained by fine-tuning their transcriptional and translational regulation.

      This manuscript elucidates an important aspect of how the different proteasome components are transcriptionally regulated upon denervation in mouse muscles for timely and efficiently assembling 26S proteasome. The authors present data that point out towards the model whereby a two-phase transcriptional program (early: day 3-7 and late: day 10-14) activates genes encoding proteasome subunits and assembly chaperones to boost an increase in proteasome content. This involves the coordinated functions of two transcription factors, PAX4 and alpha-PAL(Nrf1) which were important for both early and late phase of the transcriptional program. Their roles were not redundant as loss of one transcription factor was sufficient to prevent induction of various proteasome genes in muscle after denervation.

      In summary, the authors report a novel bi-phasic mechanism elevating proteasome production in vivo, which involves the coordinated functions of two transcription factors, PAX4 and alpha-PAL(Nrf1).

      Major points: 1) It is not clear why PAX4 and alpha-PAL(Nrf1) are both fully required for the transcriptional induction of some proteasome genes upon denervation (with good overlap), while only PAX4 is important for increased proteasome assembly. The authors speculate that this could be due to a stoichiometry problem but an alternative scenario where translation is increased upon alpha-PAL(Nrf1) inhibition would also be possible. This would explain why, for example, the induction of PSMC1 gene expression upon denervation is abolished upon alpha-PAL(Nrf1) inhibition (Fig. 5C) while the protein level is still increased (Fig. 6H). Is that also true for PSMD5 and Rpn9? Could it also be that the loss of function of alpha-PAL(Nrf1) is too detrimental for the muscle so that they induce an alternative stress response pathway increasing proteasome subunit translation?

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. To better clarify this important point, we conducted further experiments to examine the differential effects between PAX4 vs. α-PALNRF1 on proteasome assembly chaperons (Fig. S4b). Our new data show that PAX4 promotes the induction of the assembly chaperone, PSMD5 (S5b) at 3 days after denervation (Fig. S4B). This induction is critical for the increase in PSMD5 protein levels because PAX4 knockout results in decreased PSMD5 protein levels at both 3 and 10 days after denervation (Fig. 4K). α-PALNRF1, however, does not affect the mRNA levels of this chaperone (Fig. S4A). This new result strengthens our conclusion that induced expression of assembly chaperones by PAX4 is key to raising proteasome levels after denervation.

      We cannot rule out an indirect effect of α-PALNRF1 knock-down on protein synthesis, and therefore this potential alternative mechanism is now discussed in the text. It appears unlikely, however, that α-PALNRF1 knock-down is too detrimental to muscle as we do not find any evidence phenotypically for any type of stress or abnormalities.

      2) Pax4 controls Rpt1-2 transcription and these two Rpt proteins form a pair. As Rpt4 is also regulated by Pax4, is Rpt5 also controlled by Pax4?

      We believe the reviewer meant to request the data for Rpt4, because the data for Rpt5 was already included in original Fig. 4G-H. Therefore, we repeated the RT-PCR analysis of PAX4 KO mouse muscles for Rpt4 and now show that its induction requires PAX4 at 10 d after denervation, just when proteasome content is increased (Fig. 4G). At 3 d after denervation, Rpt4 induction is probably regulated by other transcription factors because its mRNA levels at this early phase were similar in muscles from WT and PAX4 KO mice (Fig. 4H). These data, strengthen our conclusions that coordinated functions of multiple transcription factors control proteasome gene expression in vivo. In future studies, we will investigate the specific mode of cooperation and mechanisms by which various transcription factors and co-factors collaborate to enhance the expression of proteasome genes in the early and delayed stages of gene expression within a living organism.

      What about the assembly chaperone for these two pairs: PSMD5 and p27? It would be very interesting to know if there is a transcriptional coregulation based on proteasome assembly intermediates.

      The referee raises an important point, which we also discuss in the text. We now present data showing that PAX4 promotes the induction of the assembly chaperon PSMD5 at 3 d after denervation (Fig. S4B), correlating nicely with the observed changes in protein levels of this chaperon (Fig. 4K). The expression of PSMD9 (p27) however, does not require neither PAX4 nor α-PALNRF1 (Fig. S4). Consequently, we conclude that PAX4 promotes proteasome biogenesis by promoting PSMD5 induction, and in the absence of α-PALNRF1 proteasome subunits can still efficiently assemble into the proteasomes (even though their expression is reduced), due to the induced expression and increased action of the assembly chaperone PSMD5. Our data highlight the intricacy in controlling proteasome levels, through transcriptional regulation of proteasome genes and assembly chaperones during muscle atrophy. We now further document and discuss the regulation of proteasome biogenesis by these two transcription factors in the text and Discussion (p.28).

      3) Fig. 4J: PSMD5 and PSMD13 are not tested in Fig. 4A, G and H. This needs to be done if the authors want to draw the parallel mRNA-protein levels, as in their conclusion. Moreover, the protein levels seem to be much more induced than the mRNA levels, could that be due to increased translation? This could be discussed.

      We accepted this thoughtful suggestion and now present the mRNA levels for PSMD5 and PSMD13 in Figs. 4A, G and H and Fig. S4. The new data does not change our conclusion that protein abundance largely correlate with the transcript levels (Figs. 2 and 4K).

      The reviewer raises an important question that we hope to resolve in the future. As we point out in the revised Discussion section, “the substantial rise in protein levels compared to mRNA levels after denervation suggests potential increased protein translation due to PAX4 loss. Whether PAX4 regulates protein synthesis and thus can affect protein levels beyond gene expression are intriguing questions for future research”.

      4) The conclusion is not correct in this sentence: "Moreover, analysis of innervated and 10 d denervated muscle homogenates from WT, alpha-PAL(Nrf1) KD or PAX4/alpha-PAL(Nrf1) KD mice by native gels and immunoblotting or LLVY-cleavage indicated that loss of both transcription factors is necessary to effectively block accumulation of active assembled proteasomes on denervation (Fig. 6H)". This is not correct, as the loss of PAX4 is sufficient to block accumulation of active assembled proteasomes on denervation (Fig. 4K). So, it could just be that alpha-PAL(Nrf1) KD has no effect on the induction of proteasome assembly after denervation and that all the effect of the double mutant is due to PAX4 loss. This needs to be corrected.

      We thank the reviewer for this thoughtful comment. The text has been revised accordingly.

      Minor points:

      1) I would rephrase the sentence "baseline at 14 d after denervation and showed a sustained low mRNA levels until 28 d (Fig. 2A-F).", as the mRNA levels are still significantly higher that the basal levels for most proteasome genes. Same for the sentence: "RNA sequencing (RNA-Seq) analysis of TA muscles at 14 d after denervation indicated that expression of most proteasome genes is low at 14 d (Fig. S1)". Expression is low compared to what and not being induced doesn't mean they are low. This needs to be rephrased.

      We revised the text accordingly and thank the reviewer for these suggestions.

      2) Microscopy images need more explanation: define the green and red channel and what they are used for in the legend.

      The legends have been updated as requested.

      3) Columns have moved from the Table 2.

      The tables have now been submitted as separate files.

      4) Fig. S3: RT-PCR on NRF-1(NFE2L1) need to be performed to see the extent of inhibition by shRNA.

      We thank the reviewer for this important comment. The data, which was added as new Fig. S3A, shows an efficient knockdown of NRF-1NFE2L1 with shNFE2L1.

      5) In the sentence: "PAX4 maintaining subunit stoichiometry for increased proteasome assembly.", could it be due to the much higher levels of PSMB8, 9 and 10 immunoproteasome subunits upon alpha-PAL(Nrf1) KD (Fig. 6F)?

      We addressed this aspect in Major Point #1, regarding the difference between PAX4 and α-PALNRF1; please see our response. As for the Reviewer’s comment concerning Fig. 6F, we think that the increased expression of PSMB 8, 9, and 10 in α-PALNRF1-KD compared to the double KD or PAX4 KO further suggests a distinct cooperative interaction between these transcription factors in promoting proteasome expression, assembly, and function, which we plan to thoroughly investigate in future separate studies. However, the increased expression of PSMB 8, 9, and 10 can affect the composition of the CP (by replacing their normal ounterpart), but not the RP assembly. CP and RP are known to assemble separately with their own dedicated chaperones; RP and CP then associate to complete the assembly of proteasome holoenzyme (RP-CP complex). Thus, it is unlikely that increased CP assembly alone would increase overall RP-CP assembly.

      **Referees cross-commenting**

      All other comments are relevant.

      Reviewer #1 (Significance (Required)):

      Overall, the work is impactful and timely, reporting the participation of a novel transcription factor, alpha-PAL(Nrf1), along with PAX4, in regulating the transcription of proteasome genes and the subsequent assembly of conventional proteasomes in mouse muscle upon denervation. One limitation is that alpha-PAL(Nrf1) kockdown is only inhibiting proteasome genes expression but proteasome assembly, the reason being still unknown. Most of the conclusions drawn in the manuscript are supported by the experimental data. Better understanding how proteasome homeostasis is regulated upon stressful conditions is an important fundamental aspect of proteasome biology. I would support publication of this manuscript providing the more specific concerns listed are addressed.

      Reviewer #2 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      The main limitation of this study is that is based on a single model of muscle atrophy: that induced by cut of the sciatic nerve. Another one will nicely complement the findings as fasting atrophy or cancer cachexia model, to see if the two phase is recapitulated with regard to proteasome modulation.

      The referee raises an interesting point, but as we explained throughout the manuscript, we did not use denervation in this study as a model for atrophy but rather as an in vivo model system to investigate mechanisms of protein degradation and proteasome homeostasis in a whole organism in vivo. The reason we selected denervation as an in vivo model for accelerated proteolysis is due to the gradual nature of muscle loss, which allows us to dissect the various phases of proteasome homeostasis effectively. Fasting, as an alternative model, is too rapid for addressing the specific questions that we asked in this study. In addition, in the rapid atrophy induced by fasting the primary physiological mechanism to increase protein degradation in vivo is believed to be through post-synthetic modification of proteasomes, rather than the production of new proteasomes (VerPlank et al., 2019). In future separate studies, we will thoroughly investigate whether the mechanisms discovered here are applicable to other types of atrophy (e.g. diabetes, aging, cancer). The obtained results will be published and fully discussed separately, in part because covering all types of atrophy within a single paper is impractical and goes beyond the scope of the current manuscript.

      Another major concern is that the author do not measure over time during denervation atrophy the mRNA and protein content expression of the two transcription factors that they found crucial in the proteasome induction and assembly.

      We agree with the reviewer that time course would strengthen our conclusions that the two transcription factors are important for proteasome gene induction and assembly. We have added these data showing that PAX4 (Fig. 4I) and α-PALNRF-1 (Fig. 6E) both accumulate in the nucleus at 7 d after denervation, just when proteasome content is maximal (Fig. 3A) and protein breakdown is accelerated (Cohen 2009; Volodin 2017; Aweida 2021). The mRNA levels of PAX4 were presented as original Fig. 4F and indicate that PAX4 is induced already at 3 d after denervation. We have added new RT-PCR data for α-PALNRF-1 showing that α-PALNRF-1 is induced at 7 d and 10 d after denervation (Fig. 6D).

      Major and minor concerns are as follows:

      Typos now and then are present all over the text, as holoemzyme shall be replaced with holoenzyme on page 9, on page 12 proteasome is misspelled on mid page, as well as cellls. By cotrast shall be corrected on page 19. References on page 22 shall be formatted.

      We have corrected the typographical errors.

      • reference 29 on page 7 seems out of context together with the sentences it is coupled with.

      The reference is appropriately located within the text in terms of context, and precisely aligns with the sentence to which it is associated. Reference 29 (Boos 2019) describes a cellular state in which all proteasome genes rise simultaneously.

      • muscle electroporation of plasmid shall be replaced by AAV9 injection that causes less inflammation and more expressing fibers

      We do not understand and see no basis for the referee’s assertion that the “muscle electroporation of plasmid shall be replaced by AAV9 injection”. On the contrary, the electroporation methodology is widely used by many labs because of its many advantages. This in vivo gene transfection approach is extremely useful to study transient gene (or shRNA) effects in adult muscles, while avoiding the developmental effects of genes (or shRNA) that are often seen in transgenic or knockout animals (e.g., the inducible knockout of α-PALNRF-1 caused lethality, see Fig. 6B-C).

      In addition, the electroporation technique offers great advantages from its speed and major cost savings. We have been using it routinely in our lab for in vivo studies, and articles using it from many laboratories worldwide have appeared in all major journals, e.g. see our papers in Nature Communications, J Cell Biol, PNAS, EMBO rep, and papers from late Alfred Goldberg (Harvard), Marco Sandri (Padova, Italy), Jeff Brault (Indiana Univ.) and others. In all studies included in this manuscript that involve electroporation, contrary to the reviewer’s impression, there was no damage or inflammation to the muscles, and we routinely examined histological sections. Finally, for our studies, we always use muscles that are at least ~70% transfected, which has proven adequate for observing gene effects in mouse muscle. In each experiment, transfected muscles are always compared and analyzed in parallel to control muscles (transfected with scrambled shLacz control). In fact, the validity of the in vivo electroporation technique is further confirmed herein by our investigations of transgenic inducible knock-down mice, showing similar effects on proteasome gene expression.

      • the shGankyrin data shall be complemented with overexpression of the same chaperone to see the effects of proteasome expression and assembly.

      We understand the reviewer’s concern but do not believe that such an experiment is necessary since it is well known and there is already extensive evidence in the literature showing that the chaperon Gankyrin is essential for proteasome assembly (Kaneko et al. Cell 137, 914–925, May 29, 2009 (DOI 10.1016/j.cell.2009.05.008). Thus, various Gankyrin mutants have often been used as an inactive control for proteasome assembly in vitro and in vivo (Kaneko et al. Cell 137, 914–925, May 29, 2009 (DOI 10.1016/j.cell.2009.05.008). In fact, Gankyrin’s known function in ensuring not only the proper subunit composition, but also proper conformation of the proteasome holoenzyme (Lu et al., Mol Cell. 2017 Jul 20;67(2):322-333.e6).

      • another important transcription factor driving MuRF1 expression is Twist and it is totally ignored in the discussion, please add it.

      We regret this oversight. We did not mean to slight any authors, although our major new discoveries and focus is on proteasome genes and not MuRF1. However, to satisfy the reviewer, we now discuss in the text Twist and other transcription factors (including SMAD2/3, glucocorticoid receptors and NFkB) capable of inducing the major atrophy-related genes (among them MuRF1).

      • WB in Fig 2 shall be complemented by one in the Supp with more replicates per timepoint

      We accepted this thoughtful suggestion and now present blots from additional normal and atrophying denervated mouse muscle samples as new Fig. S1B. This approach, however, does not change any of our conclusions.

      • please justify why only PSMD10 (gankyrin) has been silenced and not any of the others (POMP, PSMD5, PSMD9)

      We silenced PSMD10 (Gankyrin) as a representative RP assembly chaperone, since it is better characterized than the other RP assembly chaperones (PSMD5 and PSMD9). We kept POMP (a CP assembly chaperone) intact. Since the formation of one proteasome holoenzyme (RP2-CP) requires two RPs and one CP, increasing proteasome assembly is expected to be more demanding for RP assembly than CP. This led us to predict that disrupting RP assembly should be sufficient to block the induced proteasome assembly. This prediction is supported by our data (Fig. 3), and this justification was also added to the revised text to enhance clarity.

      The originality is limited by the fact that Pax4 was already shown to have a role in muscle atrophy and drives the expression of p97 by the same authors. I would be curious to see if treatments in vitro know to induce the proteasome as starvation etc acts through the biphase mechanism showed in this paper, to understand how extendable to other kinds of atrophy is.

      We respectfully disagree that the originally of the present findings is limited, because previously we validated a single proteasome subunit (Rpt1) as a target gene for PAX4 (Volodin 2017), and here we discover novel global coordination of proteasome gene expression by multiple transcription factors.

      As we mention above, muscle denervation was used here as an in vivo model system of catabolic conditions. Unlike prior reports that were limited to cultured cells, our studies focus on the physiological setting in vivo to reveal mechanisms of proteasome homeostasis. In any case, regulation of proteasome gene expression by multiple transcription factors in other types of atrophy has not been investigated but is possible because common transcriptional adaptations activate protein breakdown in different types of muscle atrophy, including a coordinated induction of numerous components of the ubiquitin proteasome system (Jagoe 2002; Lecker 2004; Gomes 2001). In future independent research, we intend to investigate if the two-phase mechanism reported here can in fact be generalized to other atrophy (or stress) conditions.

      Reviewer #2 (Significance (Required)):

      The authors Gilda and co-workers made a great attempt to dissect the induction of proteasome activity during denervation muscle atrophy and discovered a two-phase process which involves two transcription factors Pax4 and NRF1. The manuscript is clearly written and the experiments fully delineated.

      Reviewer #3 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      Using denervated mouse muscle as a model, Gilda et al. demonstrated that a two-step transcriptional program operates in the process of muscle atrophy after denervation and that proteasome expression-induced enhancement of protein degradation is important. Gilda et al. clarified that the transcription factors PAX4 and PAL/NRF-1 act on this proteasome expression induction and that the induction of these transcription factors and the expression induction of the proteasome gene cluster after denervation are necessary for muscle atrophy using an in vivo mouse model. The experiments were logically designed, and the results presented are considered clear and reliable. However, some of the descriptions in the text lack accuracy and courtesy, and some experiments require additional data to support and strengthen the author's claims. In particular, it is unclear whether PAX4, FOXO3, and NRF-1 work together or whether they have distinct functions. Although the authors claim that there are two stages of proteasome expression induction after denervation, this remains unclear. The authors should clarify the differences in target sequence or target genes and the substitutability of each transcription factor.

      Major comments: 1: In Figure 3A, the results of the immunoblot of SDS-PAGE against 20S proteasome subunits should also be shown to confirm the increase in proteasome activity and amount.

      We would like to clarify this aspect. We show the increased levels of proteasome holoenzyme complex (RP2-CP) by immunoblotting of the native gel, rather than SDS-PAGE gel. This is because the blots of the native gel can assess the levels of the actual proteasome complex, not simply subunit levels in their denatured state as in SDS-PAGE; SDS-PAGE cannot distinguish between free subunits and ones that are incorporated into the proteasome.

      If proteasome activity was increased due to some other mechanisms, proteasome levels would remain relatively constant, while proteasome activity would have increased. However, this is not the case here since our data demonstrates that both RP2-CP activities and levels peak at day 7. Furthermore, the in-gel peptidase assay (Fig. 3A panel b) directly tests the 20S CP activity within the proteasome holoenzyme (RP2-CP complex) using the fluorogenic model substrate, LLVY-AMC. The 20S CP is activated for substrate degradation, only upon its association with RP (RP2-CP complex), since RP opens the substrate entry gate of the 20S. Free 20S itself is inactive, as its gate for substrate entry is closed; for this reason, free 20S can be detected, only after its substrate entry gate is artificially opened by SDS (see free 20S in panel b, but not in panel a).

      2: In Figure 3, the reviewer assumed the conflict between the results of peptidase activity and SDS-PAGE in 14d. Therefore, quantification and statistical analysis should be performed on the results of proteasome peptidase activity and immunoblots to clarify the relationships between proteasome activity and amounts. Immunoblotting against ubiquitin is also needed to confirm the requirement and efficiency of proteasome induction.

      As the reviewer pointed out, it might seem discrepant that peptidase activity at 14 d denervation is lower than its peak at 7d (Fig. 3A, panel a), but SDS-PAGE signal for proteasome subunits seems still high (Fig. 3A, panel d, Rpn2). SDS-PAGE detects total cellular content of proteasome subunits (free subunits as well as ones assembled within proteasomes). However, at any given moment, these subunits are not only in the proteasome holoenzyme complex, but also in different assembly intermediates. When proteasome subunits are transcriptionally induced as in this study, proteasome assembly process is also increased. However, proteasome assembly is a multi-step process, and the fold-induction for each specific subunit is different (Fig. 2A-B). This means that the rate of a certain assembly step would be differently affected for a given subunit, depending on their fold-induction. For this reason, some subunits seem to exist at a high level at 14d (e.g. Fig. 3A, panel d, Rpn2), but they are not yet incorporated into the proteasome complex, because they might be still undergoing assembly process.

      As for the ubiquitin blot, it can be a good indicator for proteasome activity, when proteasome activity is decreased than normal. In such situations, ubiquitinated proteins accumulate (i.e. their signals increase as compared to control), due to their deficient degradation. However, our present study pertains to the opposite situation, where proteasome activity is increased in degrading ubiquitinated proteins. In normal cells, ubiquitinated proteins are hardly detectable due to their rapid degradation. Thus, when proteasome activity is greater than normal, ubiquitinated protein levels will be further decreased than normal. Data become unreliable when the signals are below the detection threshold. For this reason, we provided functional readouts involving the number of muscle fibers (for example, Fig. 3D).

      3: In Figure 3C, the sample labels of shGankyrin and shLacZ are repeated. Would it be mislabeled? In addition, NATIVE PAGE immunoblot analysis against Gankyrin and proteasome subunits are needed to prove the knockdown efficiency and to reveal the assembly defect of proteasome by Gankyrin knockdown.

      To present our findings more clearly, we show one of each sample in the revised figure, rather than the duplicates as in the previous figure (Fig. 3C). We also included the immunoblot data to show that Gankyrin knockdown disrupts proteasome assembly, as seen by the reduced proteasome complex activity and level (Fig. 3C, panels a, b, c, lane 3, see RP2-CP). In Gankyrin knockdown samples, proteasome holoenzyme complex exhibited smeary appearance (Fig. 3C, panel c, see bracketed region in lane 3), as opposed to a discrete band in the controls (lanes 1, 2). This smeary appearance reflects more heterogeneous proteasome populations, due to defects in their composition and/or conformation. This is in line with Gankyrin’s known function in ensuring not only the proper subunit composition, but also proper conformation of the proteasome holoenzyme (Lu et al., Mol Cell. 2017 Jul 20;67(2):322-333.e6).

      4: In Figures 4A, 4G, 4H, 4J, and 4K, the results of shPAX4 against innervated muscle should be shown to estimate the contribution of PAX4 in steady-state conditions. To clarify the innervated muscle-specific function of PAX4, histological analysis and quantification of proteasome gene expression in multiple organs in PAX4 KO mice are needed.

      The reviewer raises an interesting point, but as we explained above, we concentrate here on the major new discovery that multiple transcription factors increase proteasome content in a catabolic condition in vivo, correlating directly with the accelerated protein loss. Regulation of the basal levels of proteasome in normal conditions in various types of cells and tissues is certainly an important issue meriting in depth study and will be the subject for future studies, but it is beyond the scope of this lengthy paper. This point is now discussed in the revised text.

      The tissue distribution of PAX4 and the detailed description of the phenotype of KO mice are also needed to understand and evaluate the role of PAX4 in muscle.

      We added the requested data about PAX4 distribution as Fig. 4I. These data shows that PAX4 accumulates in the nucleus already at 3 d after denervation. Furthermore, we are happy to add further information about the knock-out mouse model. The requested information and a detailed description of how PAX4 KO mice were generated were added to the text. The PAX4 KO mice showed no abnormalities and did not appear in any way different from the wild type littermates.

      5: In Figure 4C, immunoblot analysis against PAX4 is essential to confirm the PAX4 protein knockout.

      We agree and representative blots were added to Fig. 4C.

      6: In Figure 5, peptidase activity and immunoblotting in NATIVE PAGE are needed to reveal the contribution of FOXO3 and NRF-1 in denervated muscle as shown in Figure 4.

      The requested data for FOXO3 using FOXO3 dominant negative (as in Fig. 5A-B) were added as new Fig. 5C-D, showing no effect on proteasome content by FOXO3 inhibition. These new data are consistent with our findings that the expression of only two proteasome subunit genes was affected by FOXO3 inhibition at 10 d after denervation (Fig. 5B). The data for α-PALNRF-1 and the effects of its knockdown on proteasome content and activity were shown as original Fig. 6H (now Fig. 6J).

      The expression of FOXO3 and NRF-1 should also be shown by RT-PCR and immunoblotting as shown in Figure 4.

      We thank the reviewer for this thoughtful suggestion, and as requested, we now show representative blots of transfected muscles to support the graphical data (Figs. 5C-F). These data confirm the efficient expression of HA-FOXO3ΔC or FLAG-α-PALNRF-1 dominant negative inhibitors in transfected muscles. It is important to note that these inhibitors are mutant forms designed to interfere with the normal function of the wild-type endogenous FOXO3 or α-PALNRF-1 proteins, without affecting their transcript levels. Given this mechanism, we believe that Western blotting is a more appropriate technique for assessing their impact, as it provides direct insights into protein expression. In the revised main text and methods, we have now clarified this point.

      Similar to previous comments, the expression of the dominant negative form of Foxo3 and NRF-1 should be performed in innervated muscles to reveal the significance and specificity of Foxo3 and NRF-1 function in denervated muscles.

      As mentioned above, regulation of the normal basal levels of proteasomes is certainly an important issue meriting in depth study and will be the subject for future studies, but it is beyond the scope of this lengthy paper, which focuses on the mechanisms increasing protein content in catabolic conditions in vivo. With respect to FOXOs, there is a large literature on its regulation and roles in normal muscle (please see papers by late Alfred L Goldberg, Marco Sandri and others). Under normal conditions FOXO3 is largely inactive via phosphorylation by insulin-PI3K-AKT signaling (Stitt 2004; Latres 2005; Zhao 2007).

      7: In Figure 6D, the list of genes should be served especially about 27 genes and 69 genes that show common features between NRF-1 KD and PAX4 KO.

      The requested data is now presented as new Table 4.

      8: In Figure 6F, the list of genes that change expression in PAX4 and NRF-1 KD mice is needed.

      We agree and the requested data has now been added to table 5.

      9: In Figure 6H, immunoblotting against ubiquitin is needed to evaluate the contribution of proteasome induction to protein degradation.

      We clarified this aspect in the Major Point #2. Please see our response.

      10: This study lacks the detailed mechanisms by which PAX4, Foxo3, and NRF-1 regulate the expression of proteasome genes. The contribution of these transcription factors is revealed by experiments, but the specific sequence that these transcription factors bind and how transcription factors are induced in denervated muscles is not clarified. As shown in the figures, the ChIP assay provides convincing results, but the detailed sequence or map of the promoter region of proteasome genes must be shown in the figures to clarify the target sequences of NFE2L1 and PAX4, FOXO3, and NRF-1. In addition, the luciferase assay would support the results of the ChIP assay.

      Again, the reviewer raises an important question that we plan to resolve in the future. As mentioned, our findings strongly suggest a novel coordinated mechanism involving multiple transcription factors that control proteasome content in catabolic states in vivo. The enclosed revised manuscript primarily focuses on elucidating the contributions of individual transcription factors (α-PALNRF-1, PAX4, NRF-1NFE2L1 and FOXO3) to the induction of proteasome genes, revealing a significant overlap in genes regulated by multiple transcription factors. The specific mode of cooperation among these and other transcription factors and cofactors is certainly an important question for future studies, but it is beyond the scope of this lengthy paper. In the revised text we have now clarified this point (page 27). In addition, we agree that clarifying how the transcription factors are induced in denervated muscles merits some considerations and a paragraph was added to the Discussion (page 26) concerning possible mechanisms. For example, it is possible that the transcription factor STAT3 is involved in PAX4 induction because, based on previous microarray and ChIP data in cultured NIH3T3 cells, PAX4 was identified as a target gene of STAT3 (Snyder et al., 2008), and STAT3 becomes activated after denervation (Madaro et al., 2018).

      We are delighted that the reviewer found the results obtained through the ChIP assay convincing. Given the extensive scope of our investigation and rigorous analyses of dozens of genes, it is not feasible to generate luciferase-encoding plasmids for all of them. However, in response to the reviewer's request, we have carried out predictions of the binding sites of the 4 transcription factors within the minimal promoter regions (300 up- and 1000 down-stream to TSS) of the 64 proteasome sequences. The predicted binding sites are now listed in Table 2A-D. These new data further support our key findings that multiple transcription factors control proteasome gene expression in a catabolic physiological state in vivo.

      11: The results of the loss of transcription factors are well done, but the authors should also try to estimate the effect of overexpression of transcription factors in muscle. If the overexpressed transcription factors cause proteasome induction and muscle fiber mass reduction, these results strongly support the importance of transcription factor-mediated proteasome enhancement.

      We understand the reviewer’s comment but do not believe that such an experiment is necessary to support our key findings about proteasome gene induction by multiple transcription factors in vivo. In fact, we have specifically refrained from pursuing overexpression studies in this context due to the apparent coordination and some potential interdependence between the functions of PAX4 and α-PALNRF-1 transcription factors in inducing proteasome genes. Manipulating one specific gene through overexpression could potentially disrupt this delicate coordination and yield misleading results.

      In addition, there are several limitations of gene overexpression in mouse muscle, as it may not be as efficient and does not represent physiological conditions. Therefore, to validate gene functions in a physiological setting in vivo, we generated transgenic animals with the gene of interest specifically knocked-out or knocked-down. Utilizing transgenic mice lacking the gene of interest, though time-consuming, is a widely accepted and common approach that proves to be the most suitable method for specifically demonstrating the involvement of a particular gene in a physiological process, enabling a targeted and controlled investigation of its role and providing valuable insights into its contribution to the observed effects.

      Minor comments:

      12: The authors should describe the inducible KO mice more carefully and correctly. In the Results section on P12, the description of "whole body Cre+ mice" confuses the readers in understanding the mechanism of inducible Cre-mediated KO.

      We agree and have added the information requested about the KO mice to the main text and a detailed description in the methods section.

      13: In Figures 6B and 6C, the number of mice and the meaning of the asterisk should be described correctly. Is it statistically significant?

      We agree. By accident the number of mice and sign for statistical significance were omitted during processing. The correct sign was added to Fig. 6B-C, and the number of mice used, and the meaning of asterisks were added to the corresponding legend. N=10 mice per condition. **, P

      14: There is no description of Figure 6E in the manuscript. The authors should include it.

      In the original version of this paper, we refer to Fig. 6E in the text on pages 21 and 25. Also, the presented illustration is fully described in the corresponding legend.

      Reviewer #3 (Significance (Required)):

      This paper clarified a novel mechanism of proteasome induction by transcription factors in denervated muscles other than Nrf1 (NFE2L1), which has been shown to contribute to the induction of proteasome gene expression in cultured cells. This is an important paper for expanding the understanding of the field. It is also important because it has demonstrated the potential for new therapeutic targets in diseases such as type 2 diabetes and cancer.

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      Reply to the reviewers

      General Statement We very much appreciate the reviewers' thorough comments and are sincerely grateful for their kind remarks on the novelty and interest of our manuscript. We are confident to have addressed all the points that they have raised including new data, as well as revised figures and text.

      Point-by-point description of revisions All the revisions have been already carried out and included in the transferred manuscript.

      Reviewer #1

      Major comments:

      > The number of the replicates/animals for the experiments described in Figures 1 and 2 should be reported either in the figure legends or in the methods (statistical analysis). We have added the required numbers to the corresponding revised figures, as requested.

      > A relevant part of the discussion repeats what the authors have already said in the results. I would recommend to reorganize this section, emphasizing the importance of these results in the context of human brain tumors.

      Following our own style, we have written a very short (46 lines in length!) Discussion. We dedicate a few lines to highlighting two points: (1) the suggestion, derived from our allograft experiments, that the initial stages of tumour development and long-term tumour growth may be molecularly distinct events, and (2), the unique effect of the combined loss of TrxT and dhd on mbt tumour transcriptomics -unique because none of the suppressors of mbt reported before are as effective in erasing both the MBTS and SDS mbt signatures. Neither of these points are raised in Results. In the remaining few lines we put our results in the context of human Cancer/Testis and elaborate on the fact that the TrxT and dhd pair qualify as head-to-head, CT-X genes, like those reported in human oncology. This is as far as we are willing to go at this stage at emphasizing the importance of our results in the context of human tumours.

      Reviewer #2

      > 1. Figures should include information regarding the sex of the larvae, particularly as there has been a previously reported sex-linked effect in the phenotypes analysed. (e.g. in Figure 2 and Figure S1, where Indication of the sex of the animals should be provided in the figure OK and not just in the figure legend). We fully agree. Sex must always be taken into account as a biological variable. All the experiments reported in the manuscript were carried out with sexed samples, and were annotated accordingly in the original text. In compliance with the reviewer's request we have added this information also to the revised figure.

      *> 2. Data regarding fertility. Can this be shown in a table format? Are dhdKO females fully sterile? What are the fertility levels of Df(1)J5? * Please note that we are not discovering anything here but merely corroborating what has been published before: the lack of TrxT does not affect fertility in either sex; the lack of Dhd results in female sterility (Torres-Campana et al., 2022, Tirmarche et al., 2016, Svensson et al., 2003, Pellicena-Palle et al., 1997). Adding a table would not be justified. Moreover, it would be a rather simple table: all single-pair mating tests (n=10 for each genotype) with Trxt KO and Dhd KO males, and TrxT KO females were as fertile as control flies, while all single-pair mating tests (n=10) with Dhd KO females were sterile.

      > 3. Are dhd and TrxT the only genes affected by Df(1)J5? Is there transcriptional data from Df(1)J5 animals to suggest that nearby genes are not affected by the deficiency? Of particular interest would be to assess if snf is affected or not as it is a known regulator of gene expression and splicing. Yes dhd and TrxT are the only genes affected by Df(1)J5. That is the case according to Flybase (citing Svensson et al., 2003, and Salz et al., 1994) and confirmed by our own RNAseq data. No other transcripts, including snf, are affected by Df(1)J5.

      > 4. In Figure 1C, statistical test plus indication of significance is not presented. The requested statistical test and significance data have been added as required to the revised figure and figure legend.

      > 5. Related to Figure 1D. Additional neural markers could be assessed in dhdKO and TrxTKO flies. Whilst the gross morphology of the brain does not seem to be affected, there is a possibility that cell specification is affected. Specific markers for the NE, MED and CB could be used to assess this in more detail, particularly as the DE-cad images shown for dhdKO and TrxTKO flies seem to differ slightly from the control. We believe that there may be a small misunderstanding here. We have made this point clear in the revised version by referring to substantial published data showing that expression of these two genes is restricted to the germline and that, female fertility aside, TrxT and dhd deficient flies' development and life span are perfectly normal. If anything, Figure 1D is redundant. However, we would rather keep it as a control that our CRISPR KO mutants behave as expected.

      > 6. Related to Figure 2A, images from TrxTKO; l(3)mbtts1, dhdKO and l(3)mbtts1 should be added at the very least in a supplementary figure. Additionally, data for NE/BL ratio should be provided for dhdKO, TrxTKO and Df(1)J5 in the absence of l(3)mbtts1 tumours. Related to Figure S1, quantification of NE/BL ratio for female lobes should be added to the figure. All the requested images and data have been included in the revised version in new figures Figure S2B, Figure S2A, and Figure S1A.

      > 7. Related to Figure 2B and Figure S1, three rows of images are presented for each genotype. It is unclear whether these correspond to brain lobes from different larvae or different confocal planes from the same animal. This should be clarified in the figure and/or figure legend. This point has been clarified as requested in the revised figure legend. Each group of three rows correspond to brain lobes from different larvae of the same genotype.

      > 7 cont. Related to this, in addition to the anti-DE-cadherin data, it would be informative to include immunofluorescence data using antibodies such as anti-Dachshund (lamina), anti-Elav (medulla cortex) and anti-Prospero (central brain and boundary between central brain and medulla cortex) (as assessed in e.g. Zhou and Luo, J Neurosci 2013) in the mbt tumour situation to accurately describe regions disrupted by the tumours. There is no denying that taking advantage of the many cell-type specific markers that are readily available in Drosophila could be of interest. The same applies to cell cycle markers like PH3, FUCCI, and many others. However, we believe that interesting as they may be, none of this markers will give us the clue on the molecular basis of TrxT and Dhd tumour function that is, of course, the open burning question that we are trying to address now.

      > 8. Authors should clarify how the NE was defined when mbt tumours are generated, as it is severely affected. From the images provided, it is unclear which region corresponds to NE or how the NE/BL ratio was measured. It would be helpful to outline these regions in the images or, as mentioned above, use antibodies to define them. The figure has been modified to include the requested outlines defining the NE that indeed is correspond to the channel showing DE-Cadh staining.

      > 9. Figure 2C does not have indication of statistical significance for the comparisons stated in the text. Potential explanations for the different roles of Dhd and TrxT in long-term tumour development should be explored in the discussion. The requested statistical significance data for these comparisons were stated in the second last paragraph of that section. To make these data more prominent we have also added this information to revised Figure 2C.

      >9 cont. Related to this, does the analysis of the RNA-seq data from TrxTKO; l(3)mbtts1 and dhdKO; l(3)mbtts1 animals reveal why they have similar effect on mbt tumour development but do not synergistically contribute to long-term growth? Unfortunately our analysis of the RNA-seq data from TrxTKO; l(3)mbtts1 and dhdKO; l(3)mbtts1 animals does not give us any clue that could help us understand why they have similar effect on mbt tumour development, but not in long-term growth (allografts). To further explore this point, we have added new Figure S3 that includes a Venn diagramme showing the overlap between the affected mMBTS genes in TrxTKO; l(3)mbtts1 and dhdKO; l(3)mbtts1, together with the lists of enriched GOs among overlapping and non-overlapping genes. GO differences are tantalising, indeed, However, they do not immediately suggest any direct explanation for the different roles of Dhd and TrxT in long-term tumour development.

      > 10. Authors should clarify if there is any overlap between the affected M-tSDS and F-tSDS in the TrxTKO; l(3)mbtts1 and dhdKO; l(3)mbtts1 conditions. Would the limited overlap suggest that TrxT and dhd act in parallel rather than synergistically? This might also explain the differential effects on long-term tumour development. Additionally, the stronger effect observed in Df(1)J5 animals may be due to TrxT and dhd functional redundancy. Currently, there is limited evidence to suggest that TrxT and dhd act synergistically to regulate mbt tumour growth based on the presented data. See below.

      > 11. Authors should include a Venn diagram depicting affected genes (M-tSDS and F-tSDS) in the TrxTKO; l(3)mbtts1, dhdKO; l(3)mbtts1 and Df(1)J5; l(3)mbtts1 genotypes as this could clarify the percentage of overlap of gene signatures in these different conditions. Related to this point, authors could provide results from GO analysis to investigate whether specific functional clusters are altered in the different conditions. We have taken the liberty of fusing points 10 and 11 that are conceptually similar. The requested Venn diagrams showing the overlap between the affected M-tSDS and F-tSDS genes in the TrxTKO; l(3)mbtts1, dhdKO; l(3)mbtts1, and Df(1)J5; l(3)mbtts1 conditions, and GO analysis are now shown in new Figure S5. Unfortunately, these new data do not suggest any obvious explanation for the differential effects of these two genes, nor do they allow us to derive any further conclusions regarding the nature of the pathways through which TrxT and dhd cooperate to sustain mbt tumour growth. However, our analyses demonstrate that efficient suppression of mbt phenotypic traits (in larval brains) and transcriptome requires the combined elimination of both germline thioredoxins, while the effect of individual removal of either of them is only partial. These data demonstrate the synergistic nature of TrxT and dhd function in mbt tumour growth.

      > 12. In Figure 3E, authors should indicate more explicitly in the figure panel and/or figure legend which genes display significant differences in expression in the different samples. We apologise for not having made this point clear in the original version: All (21) genes shown in this Table are significantly downregulated in DfJ5;ts1 vs ts1. From these, nanos and Ocho are also significantly downregulated in TrxTKO;ts1 vs ts1, and Ocho, HP1D3csd, hlk, fj, Lcp9, CG43394, and CG14968 are significantly downregulated in dhdKO;ts1 vs ts1. These data have been included in the revised figure legend. Data on all other comparisons are included in Table S1.

      > 13. In Figure S2C-F it is not clear if the graphs represent data from all tissues or data from male and female tissues separately, as shown in Figure 4. Apologies for the confusion. All samples were from male tissues as indicated in the original figure legend. To make it more clear, we have labelled all four panels in the revised figure.

      > 14. Are TrxT and dhd also deregulated in other tumour types? Or is this specific for mbt tumours? This information could be provided to enhance the scope of the manuscript. Thank you for raising this point. TrxT and dhd are not dysregulated in the other tumour types that were analysed in Janic et al., 2010 (i.e pros, mira, brat, lgl and pins).

      > 15. Authors conclude that TrxT and dhd cooperate in controlling gene expression between wild-type and tumour samples and that they act synergistically in the regulation of sex-linked gene expression in male tumour tissue. However, the link between the two observations (if indeed there is a link) has not been well explained. Is the effect on gene expression in tumours simply a result of the regulation of sex-linked transcription? Our data show that TrxT and dhd synergistically contribute to the emergence of both the MBTS (i.e tumour versus wild type) and SDS (i.e. male tumour versus female tumour). The only certainty at this time regarding the interconnection between both signatures is that they overlap, but only partially, which answers one the questions raised by the reviewer: the effect on gene expression in tumours is not simply a result of the regulation of sex-linked transcription. Beyond that, the link (if indeed there is a link) between these two signatures has not been investigated. The lack of insight on this issue is not surprising taking into account that, in contrast to classical tumour signatures (tumour versus healthy tissue), the concept of sex-linked tumour signatures is relatively new and only a handful of such signatures have been published. Moreover, the vast majority of classical tumour signatures have not been worked out in a sex-dependent manner.

      Reviewer #3 Comments: > - In the first section of the results, as a first step to study the role of TrxT and dhd genes on mbt tumors the authors generate CRISPR knock outs of these genes and correctly validate them. However, afterwards, the experiment where the authors test the KO of these genes in a wild-type larva brain is not contextualized with the rest of the section. It might be best to first address the role of these genes in a tumor context and only then complement with the experiments in wild-type (in supplementary material). We do appreciate the reviewer's view, but respectfully disagree. In our opinion, the manuscript flows better by presenting the tools that we have generated in Figure 1, By corroborating published data showing that these two germline genes do not affect soma development (Torres-Campana et al., 2022, Tirmarche et al., 2016, Svensson et al., 2003, Pellicena-Palle et al., 1997) this first figure not only validates our CRISPR KO mutants, but also sets the stage to highlight their significant effect on a somatic tumour like mbt.

      > - Fig 2 B - To back up the quantifications in Fig 2A the authors could include images of l(3)mbt ts1 tumors with TrxT KO and dhd KO also. The requested images are shown in new figure Figure S2B.

      > Fig 2 B and C - Indeed, the results suggest that TrxT seems to be responsible for most tumor lethality upon l(3)mbt allografts, but not dhd. This is curious since l(3)mbt; dhd KO brain tumors have the same partial phenotype as l(3)mbt; TrxT KO (fig 1A). It would be interesting to further explore these phenotypes by staining l(3)mbt; TrxT KO and l(3)mbt; dhd KO brains with, for instance, PH3 to understand if the number of dividing cells of these tumors could be different. In addition, to back up this information, the authors could look at what happens to l(3)mbt tumors with TrxT KO and dhd KO at a later stage of development (or to larva or pupa lethality if that is the case) and compare it with l(3)mbt brains. We did explore the possibility of looking at later stages. Unfortunately, the onset of the lethality phase compounded by major tissue reshaping from larval to adult brain make these stages unsuitable to reach any meaningful conclusion. With regards to staining for PH3, we think that like FUCCI and a long list of other useful labels that could be explored, it is potentially interesting, but hardly likely to give us the clue on the molecular basis of TrxT and Dhd tumour function, that is of course the one important question that we are addressing now.

      > - Fig 2 B - What happens to the medulla in a l(3)mbt brain tumor? Although the ratio of NE/BL is the same for wild-type and D(1)J5; l(3)mbt, it still seems that the medulla in D(1)J5; l(3)mbt brains is substantially bigger, although quantifications would be required. Do the authors know if the NE in D(1)J5; l(3)mbt brains is either proliferating less or differentiating more? There are no significant differences in medulla/BL nor in CB/BL ratios. The corresponding quantifications have been added to the revised version. As for the question on proliferation versus differentiation, the simple answer is that we do not know.

      > Figure S1 - Although the effects of TrxT KO and dhd KO in male mbt tumors seem to be enhanced in relation to female tumors, the authors should include some form of tumor quantification for female tumors like in Fig 2 A. We have carried out the requested quantifications and added the results in a new panel in revised Figure S1A.

      Moreover in the 2nd section of the results, relative to Fig 1S in "...Df(1)J5; l(3)mbtts1 female larvae although given the much less severe phenotype of female mbt tumours, the effect caused by Df(1)J5 is quantitatively minor." to say "quantitatively" minor, the authors should include not only quantifications, but a form of comparison between female tumors vs. male tumors. The requested quantification was published in Molnar et al., 2019. However, we agree on the convenience of doing it again with our new samples. The new data, that confirm published results, are now shown as a new panel in revised Figure S1C.

      > - Fig 3D - The hierarchical clustering was done according to which parameters? A brief explanation could help a better interpretation of this results section. The requested information has been added to the Methods section. Hierarchical clustering was done using the function heatmap.2 in R to generates a plot in which samples (columns) are clustered (dendogram); genes (rows) are scaled by “rows"; distance = Euclidean; and hclust method = complete linkage. Expression levels are reported as Row Z-score.

      > - Fig 3D - It could be beneficial for the authors to include an analysis of the downregulated genes shared between TrxT KO mbt tumors and dhd KO mbt tumors, as well as the genes that are not shared (besides MBTS genes). Could be something like a Venn diagram. Thanks for pointing this out. New Figure S3 shows the requested Venn diagram, as well as the list of enriched GOs for each group.There are no enriched GOs in the list of overlapping genes. TrxTKO; l(3)mbtts1-specific genes are enriched for GOs related to game generation, sexual reproduction, germ cell development and simlar GOs. dhdKO; l(3)mbtts1 -specific genes are enriched for GOs related to chitin, molting and cuticle development. Tantalising as they are, these observations do not immediately suggest any direct explanation for the different roles of Dhd and TrxT in long-term tumour development. We are happy to add these supplemental information, but we do not deem it worth of any further discussion at this point.

      > - Results section 3 - "Expression of nanos is also significantly down-regulated upon TrxT loss, but remains unaffected by loss of dhd" - to corroborate the idea that TrxT and dhd work as a pair, but contribute to different functions within the tumor, it would be interesting for the authors to do an allograft experiment of dhd KO; l(3)mbt male tissue with nanos knock down in the brain, if genetically possible. The suggested experiment is published. The gene in question (nanos) is a suppressor of mbt tumour growth: In a nanos knock down background, l(3)mbt allografts do not grow (Janic 2010).

      Minor comments: * > - In the first section of the results, the authors claim that "Consistent with the reported phenotypes of Df(1)J5...", but then the study is not mentioned.* The corresponding references (Salz et al., 1994; Svensson et al., 2003; Tirmarche et al., 2016) have been added.

      > - Fig 1 B - It is a bit confusing to follow where TrxT and dhd are in the Genome browser view. I am guessing we should follow the TrxT-dhd locus from A, but the authors could make it clearer. Figure 1 has been changed to make this point more clear.

      > - In the same section, in the next sentence, the homozygous and hemizygous is a bit confusing. "...homozygous TrxTKO females, dhdKO males, and TrxTKO males", should be corrected. We appreciate the suggestion, but would rather stick to classical terminology and refer to KO/KO females as homozygous and to KO/Y males as hemizygous.

      >- In the same section (Fig 1C): "RNA-seq data also shows that TrxT is significantly upregulated in l(3)mbtts1 males compared to females (FC=7.06; FDR=1.10E-44) while dhd is not (FC=1.89; FDR=2.00E-14)." - But dhd is nevertheless upregulated, although less, in l3mbt males, right? The authors might need to rephrase. We refer to comparing males versus females, not wild type versus tumours. The text has been rephrased in the revised version to make this point clear.

      > - Fig 2 A (quantifications), should be after the confocal images (Fig 2 B). We respectfully disagree on this minor point. We initially organised this figure in the order recommended by the reviewer, but we eventually found it easier to write the article using the order shown in the submitted figure. We would rather stick to this version.

      > - Fig 2 B and Fig S1 - Please include an outline of at least neuroepithelia and, if possible, Central brain or medulla so that these regions can more clearly identified. Moreover, these results will be easier to interpret if you add a male symbol in this image and a female symbol in Figure S1, otherwise, it might seem like the same figure Outlines and symbols have been added to the revised figure, as required.

      > - In results, section 2, "Consequently, in spite of the strong sex dimorphism of mbt tumours, the phenotype of Df(1)J5; l(3)mbtts1 larval brains is not sexually dimorph" - to back this up, quantifications of Df(1)J5; l(3)mbtts1 female vs male tumor size, as well as statistical analysis are needed, like previously said. The requested the new data is now shown in revised Figure S1C.

      > - In results section 2 - "For allografts derived from, female larvae, we found that differences in lethality rate caused by TrxTKO; l(3)mbtts1, dhdKO; l(3)mbtts1, Df(1)J5; l(3)mbtts1, and l(3)mbtts1 tissues (7-23%) were not significant (Figure 2C)" - there is no statistical analysis to conclude that the lethality rate is not significant, from 7% to 23% still seems like a difference. Thanks for pointing this out. We did of course generate the requested statistical analysis data, but failed to include it in the manuscript. Chi-square statistical test gives a p value=0.2346. These data have been added to the revised version.

      > - Last paragraph of section 2 of results - very long and confusing sentence. Please rephrase text. We have rephrased this sentence to make it shorter and clearer.

      > - On section 3 of results: "The vas, piwi and CG15930 transcripts are not significantly down-regulated following either TrxT or dhd depletion alone." - in Fig 3E, not only these transcripts seem to suffer a slight downregulation, but there is also no statistical analysis supporting this. There seems to be a misunderstanding here. The requested statistical data for each gene were shown in Table S1

      > - First paragraph of section 3 results - the first sentence is written in a confusing way. Moreover, more context is needed in the sentence afterwards: "we first focused on transcripts that are up-regulated in male mbt tumour samples compared to male wild-type larval brains (mMBTS)." but using which data? The RNA seq data? Agreed; this paragraph has been amended in the revised version.

      > - Brief conclusion missing on the second paragraph of the last section of results. As far as the results presented in this paragraph are concerned, we can only mention the two potentially interesting observations, which were pointed out in the original version: (i) the suggestion that nanos upregulation could be critical for sustained mbt tumour growth upon allograft, and (ii) the fact that three genes (vas, piwi and CG15930), also known to be required for mbt tumour growth, are downregulated in Df(1)J5; l(3)mbtts1, but remain unaffected following either TrxT or dhd depletion alone. We are unable to derive any other conclusion from these observations.

      > - In the end of 3rd paragraph of last section of results: "...M-tSDS and F-tSDS genes is partially reduced in l(3)mbtts1 brains lacking either TrxT or dhd, but it is completely suppressed upon the lack of both." - "completely" might not be a correct word to use in this case, as there is still some small differences As requested, we have changed "completely" for "strongly".

      > - 4th paragraph of last section of results: Either mention the male results and then female (to be in order with the figure, as the female graphs come after the male graphs) or change the order in the figure. Also, this paragraph is not very clear, could benefit from a better explanation of the results and conclusions. Point taken. Figure 4 has been changed and female graphs come before male graphs. The paragraph is clearer now. The conclusion from this paragraph is included in the final paragraph of this section.

      > - Fig 4 C,D,E,F: to make it more clear, please write the name of the genotypes in question in the figure. At the reviewer's request, the genotypes in question are now written in each panel. Please note that we did not do so before because all four panels correspond to the same genotype: Df(J5); l(3)mbtts1 vs l(3)mbtts1, as we mentioned in the original figure legend.

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      Referee #3

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      Summary:

      • In this manuscript, the authors address the role of the thioredoxins Dhd and TrxT in the development and growth of mbt tumors, a sexually dimorphic brain tumor that derives from the expansion of the neuroephitelium. To this end, the authors have successfully generated dhd and TrxT knock-out mutants using CRISPR-Cas9 and show that both dhd and TrxT individual knock-out partially reduces the mbt tumor-associated brain phenotype. Moreover, using Df(1)J5, a deficiency that affects both TrxT and dhd, the recovery of the phenotype is enhanced. However, although concomitant expression of dhd and TrxT is required for proper tumor development, they show that only TrxT is necessary for the growth of allografts derived from male l(3)mbt tumors. This is interesting, not only because TrxT and dhd are never co-expressed in physiological conditions, but also because this data suggests that the pathways leading to l(3)mbt tumor development are different from the ones that contribute to tumor proliferation and aggressiveness. Moreover, the authors show that TrxT and dhd contribute to the emergence of the mbt tumour signature (MBTS) and sex-dimorphic signature (SDS) of tumours by analysing transcriptomic data of TrxT KO; l(3)mbt, dhd KO; l(3)mbt and Df(1)J5; l(3)mbt. In fact, through hierarchical clustering, the authors show that male Df(1)J5; l(3)mbt brain transcriptomic profile becomes closer to wild-type brains than l(3)mbt ts1 tumors.

      • This study presents novelty to the cancer research field and both the model and methodology used were appropriate. Nonetheless, this study deals with mbt tumors which are sexually dimorphic, as well as male and female germline-specific genes that in a tumor can alter male and female sex-dimorphic signatures, making this study very easy to become confusing to non-experts in the field if not written in a very clear way. Therefore, the text, especially in the results and discussion section, could be revised in general to improve the comprehension and flow of the manuscript, given that some sentences and paragraphs are hard to follow. In particular, the results section could benefit with more contextualization and a more detailed explanation of experiments. Moreover, the study is lacking some quantifications and a few additional experiments. These issues can certainly be addressed by reviewing the text as well as reorganizing and including a few quantifications and experiments as described below. I am an expert in Drosophila brain development and tumorigenesis.

      Comments:

      • In the first section of the results, as a first step to study the role of TrxT and dhd genes on mbt tumors the authors generate CRISPR knock outs of these genes and correctly validate them. However, afterwards, the experiment where the authors test the KO of these genes in a wild-type larva brain is not contextualized with the rest of the section. It might be best to first address the role of these genes in a tumor context and only then complement with the experiments in wild-type (in supplementary material).

      • Fig 2 B - To back up the quantifications in Fig 2A the authors could include images of l(3)mbt ts1 tumors with TrxT KO and dhd KO also.

      Fig 2 B and C - Indeed, the results suggest that TrxT seems to be responsible for most tumor lethality upon l(3)mbt allografts, but not dhd. This is curious since l(3)mbt; dhd KO brain tumors have the same partial phenotype as l(3)mbt; TrxT KO (fig 1A). It would be interesting to further explore these phenotypes by staining l(3)mbt; TrxT KO and l(3)mbt; dhd KO brains with, for instance, PH3 to understand if the number of dividing cells of these tumors could be different. In addition, to back up this information, the authors could look at what happens to l(3)mbt tumors with TrxT KO and dhd KO at a later stage of development (or to larva or pupa lethality if that is the case) and compare it with l(3)mbt brains.

      • Fig 2 B - What happens to the medulla in a l(3)mbt brain tumor? Although the ratio of NE/BL is the same for wild-type and D(1)J5; l(3)mbt, it still seems that the medulla in D(1)J5; l(3)mbt brains is substantially bigger, although quantifications would be required. Do the authors know if the NE in D(1)J5; l(3)mbt brains is either proliferating less or differentiating more?

      • Figure S1 - Although the effects of TrxT KO and dhd KO in male mbt tumors seem to be enhanced in relation to female tumors, the authors should include some form of tumor quantification for female tumors like in Fig 2 A. Moreover in the 2nd section of the results, relative to Fig 1S in "...Df(1)J5; l(3)mbtts1 female larvae although given the much less severe phenotype of female mbt tumours, the effect caused by Df(1)J5 is quantitatively minor." to say "quantitatively" minor, the authors should include not only quantifications, but a form of comparison between female tumors vs. male tumors.

      • Fig 3D - The hierarchical clustering was done according to which parameters? A brief explanation could help a better interpretation of this results section.

      • Fig 3D - It could be beneficial for the authors to include an analysis of the downregulated genes shared between TrxT KO mbt tumors and dhd KO mbt tumors, as well as the genes that are not shared (besides MBTS genes). Could be something like a Venn diagram.

      • Results section 3 - "Expression of nanos is also significantly down-regulated upon TrxT loss, but remains unaffected by loss of dhd" - to corroborate the idea that TrxT and dhd work as a pair, but contribute to different functions within the tumor, it would be interesting for the authors to do an allograft experiment of dhd KO; l(3)mbt male tissue with nanos knock down in the brain, if genetically possible.

      Minor comments:

      • In the first section of the results, the authors claim that "Consistent with the reported phenotypes of Df(1)J5...", but then the study is not mentioned.

      • Fig 1 B - It is a bit confusing to follow where TrxT and dhd are in the Genome browser view. I am guessing we should follow the TrxT-dhd locus from A, but the authors could make it clearer.

      • In the same section, in the next sentence, the homozygous and hemizygous is a bit confusing. "...homozygous TrxTKO females, dhdKO males, and TrxTKO males", should be corrected.

      • In the same section (Fig 1C): "RNA-seq data also shows that TrxT is significantly upregulated in l(3)mbtts1 males compared to females (FC=7.06; FDR=1.10E-44) while dhd is not (FC=1.89; FDR=2.00E-14)." - But dhd is nevertheless upregulated, although less, in l3mbt males, right? The authors might need to rephrase.

      • Fig 2 A (quantifications), should be after the confocal images (Fig 2 B).

      • Fig 2 B and Fig S1 - Please include an outline of at least neuroepithelia and, if possible, Central brain or medulla so that these regions can more clearly identified. Moreover, these results will be easier to interpret if you add a male symbol in this image and a female symbol in Figure S1, otherwise, it might seem like the same figure if one does not properly read the legend.

      • In results, section 2, "Consequently, in spite of the strong sex dimorphism of mbt tumours, the phenotype of Df(1)J5; l(3)mbtts1 larval brains is not sexually dimorph" - to back this up, quantifications of Df(1)J5; l(3)mbtts1 female vs male tumor size, as well as statistical analysis are needed, like previously said.

      • In results section 2 - "For allografts derived from female larvae, we found that differences in lethality rate caused by TrxTKO; l(3)mbtts1, dhdKO; l(3)mbtts1, Df(1)J5; l(3)mbtts1, and l(3)mbtts1 tissues (7-23%) were not significant (Figure 2C)" - there is no statistical analysis to conclude that the lethality rate is not significant, from 7% to 23% still seems like a difference.

      • Last paragraph of section 2 of results - very long and confusing sentence. Please rephrase text.

      • On section 3 of results: "The vas, piwi and CG15930 transcripts are not significantly down-regulated following either TrxT or dhd depletion alone." - in Fig 3E, not only these transcripts seem to suffer a slight downregulation, but there is also no statistical analysis supporting this.

      • First paragraph of section 3 results - the first sentence is written in a confusing way. Moreover, more context is needed in the sentence afterwards: "we first focused on transcripts that are up-regulated in male mbt tumour samples compared to male wild-type larval brains (mMBTS)." but using which data? The RNA seq data?

      • Brief conclusion missing on the second paragraph of the last section of results.

      • In the end of 3rd paragraph of last section of results: "...M-tSDS and F-tSDS genes is partially reduced in l(3)mbtts1 brains lacking either TrxT or dhd, but it is completely suppressed upon the lack of both." - "completely" might not be a correct word to use in this case, as there is still some small differences.

      • 4th paragraph of last section of results: Either mention the male results and then female (to be in order with the figure, as the female graphs come after the male graphs) or change the order in the figure. Also, this paragraph is not very clear, could benefit from a better explanation of the results and conclusions.

      • Fig 4 C,D,E,F: to make it more clear, please write the name of the genotypes in question in the figure.

      Significance

      This study presents an interesting new concept for Drosophila tumors, the cancer germline genes, which to my knowledge has been a poorly explored field, although it has a lot of potential. It is particularly interesting since it addresses the role of two germline specific thioredoxins, that are dispensable for somatic cells, but have a critical role in somatic mbt tumors, exploring new tumor vulnerabilities. This manuscript will benefit researchers in the field of cancer biology, in particular, to better understand cancer-testis (CT) genes and how they promote tumorigenesis, since the biological function for the most part remains unclear.

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      Reply to the reviewers

      Reviewer #1 (Evidence, reproducibility, and clarity (Required)):

      1. In this manuscript, Imoto et al. analyze the specific role of the Dynamin1 splice variant Dyn1xA in so-called ultrafast endocytosis, an important mechanism of synaptic vesicle recycling at synapses. In a previous publication (Imoto et al. Neuron 2022), some of the authors had shown that Dyn1xA, and not the other splice variant Dyn1xB, is essential for ultrafast endocytosis. Moreover, Dyn1xA forms clusters around the active zone for exocytosis and interacts with Syndapin 1 in a phosphorylation dependent manner. However, it was unclear which molecular interactions underlie the specific role of Dyn1xA. Here, the authors provide convincing evidence with pull down assays and CSP that Dyn1xA PRR interacts with EndophilinA1/2 with two binding sites. The first binding site lies in the part common to xA and xB, was previously characterized. The second site was previously uncharacterized, is specific for Dyn1xA, and is regulated by phosphorylation (phosphobox 2). The location of these splice variants and mutated forms at presynaptic sites correlate with the prediction made by the biochemical assays. Finally, the authors perform rescue experiments ('flash and freeze' and VGLUT1-pHluorin imaging experiments) to show that Dyn1xA-EndophilinA1/2 binding is important for ultrafast endocytosis. I find the results interesting, providing an important step in the understanding of the interplay between dynamin and the endocytic proteins interacting with it (endophilin, syndapin, amphiphysin) in the context of synaptic vesicle recycling. The manuscript is clearly written and for the most part the data supports the authors' conclusions (see specific comments below). However, there are some issues which need to be clarified before this manuscript is fully suitable for publication.

      We thank the reviewer for noting the importance of our study. Indeed, our previous study has raised the question as to why only the Dyn1xA splice variant mediates ultrafast endocytosis, and our current manuscript now resolves this issue.

      Introduction: the dynx1B Calcineurin binding motif is written PxIxIT consensus but actual sequence is PRITISDP. Is this a typo?

      The sequence is correct. One thing we failed to mention is that the last amino acid in this motif can be either threonine or serine for calcineurin binding, as we demonstrated previously [Jing, et al., 2011 JBC; PMC3162388]. We have amended the text as follows.

      1. calcineurin-binding motif (PxIxI[T/S]) 19.

      Figure 1: the difference between the constructs used in panels C and D is not clear. In D, is it a truncation without residues 796 and 845? If so, it should be labelled clearly in the Western blots. In Panel E, Dyn1xA 746-798 should be labeled Dyn1x 746-798 because it is common to both splice variants.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. Both C and D used the full-length PRRs of Dyn1xA-746 to 864 and xB-746 to 851. To make the labeling clear, we changed Dyn1xA PRR to “Dyn1xA PRR (746-864)” and Dyn1xB PRR to “Dyn1xB PRR 746-851” in Figure 1. In the main text, we made the following changes.

      1. 4: “To identify the potential isoform-selective binding partners, the full-length PRRs of Dyn1xA746-864 and xB746-851 (hereafter, Dyn1xA-PRR and Dyn1xB-PRR, respectively).”

      Figure 1: For amphiphysin binding the authors write that "No difference in binding to Amphiphysin 1 was observed among these peptides (Figure1D-F)." They should write that Dyn1x 746-798 does not bind Amphiphysin1 SH3 domain, confirming the specificity of binding to the 833-838 motif.

      We edited the sentence as suggested.

      1. “Dyn1x 746-798 does not bind Amphiphysin1 SH3 domain (Figure 1G), confirming the specificity of binding to the 833-838 motif as reported in previous studies 29,30. (Figure 1D-F).”

      Figure S2. The panels are way too small to see the shifts and the labelling. Please provide bigger panels

      As suggested, we have now provided bigger panels in Figure S2, and amended the text and Figure legend accordingly.

      We also removed Figure S2B as it was not referred to in the text in any way. (It was the reverse experiment – HSQCs of 15N-labelled SH3 titrated with unlabelled dynamin).l

      Figure 2 panel B. There is a typo in the connecting line between the sequence and the CSP peaks. It is 846 instead of 864 (after 839).

      Corrected.

      Figure 3 panel E. In the text, the authors write that "Western blotting of the bound proteins from the R838A pull-down experiment showed that R838A almost abolished both Endophilin and Amphiphysin binding in xA806-864 (Figure 3D), and reduced Endophilin binding to xA-PRR (Figure 3E)." I think they should write "only slightly reduced Endophilin binding..." it is more faithful to the result and consistent with the conclusion that Endophilin A1 has two binding sites on Dyn1xA PRR.

      We have now provided quantitative data for R838A and R846A (Fig. 3F and G). Endophilin binding is significantly reduced with R846A.

      It is unclear why the R846A mutant affects binding of Dyn1xA 806-864 but not Dyn1xA-PRR-.

      The reviewer asks why the R846A mutant affects binding of Dyn1xA 806-864, but not so much of Dyn1xA-PRR. The explanation is simply that there are two endophilin binding sites in Dyn1xA-PRR. The first is not present in the xA806-864 peptide, while both are present in Dyn1xA-PRR (the full length tail). When doing pull-down experiments, the binding tends to saturate – even when the second site is blocked by R846A. The first site is still able to bind, and the binding appears as normal. The same applies to the R838A mutant.

      Moreover, it affects binding to endophilin as well as amphiphysin, and therefore it is not specific. It is thus not correct to write that "R846 is the only residue found to specifically regulate the Dyn1 interaction with Endophilin as a part of an SDE". In the Discussion (page 11), the authors refer to the R846A mutation as specifically affecting Endophilin binding. This should be toned down, as it also affects Amphiphysin binding. For this important point, the data on quantification of Endophilin binding should be presented.

      The reviewer’s concern is about our claims of specificity of Endophilin A binding in Dyn1xA R846 mutation experiments. The reviewer is correct, and we have now defined specific parameters for those claims. Specifically, we have added new quantitative data from the Western blots in Fig 3E (full-length Dyn1aX-PRR) as Fig 3F-G. We used full-length Dyn1aX-PRR rather than the xA806-864 peptide because the subsequent transfection experiments use full length Dyn1xA. In the new figures 3F and 3G, we quantified Endophilin A, Amphiphysin and Syndapin1 amounts from the multiple Western blots such as Figure 3E (now n=14, 6 experiments, each in with 2-4 replicates for Dyn1xA PRR). R846A mutated in Dyn1xA-PRR significantly reduces the binding to Endophilin A, but it does not significantly affect the binding to Amphiphysin 1and Syndapin1 (Fig 3G). Therefore, this particular Dyn1xA-PRR mutation specifically affects Endophilin A binding, in the context of the full-length tail Dyn1aX-PRR. To make these results clear, we modified the text as below.

      P7. “R838A and R846A caused smaller reductions in Endophilin binding compared to wild-type Dyn1xA-PRR, (Figure 3E, 3F, R838A, median 68.5 ; Figure 3G, R846A, median 59.3 % : R838A reduced the Dyn1/Amphiphysin interaction (Figure 3E, 3F, median 14.2 % binding compared to wild-type Dyn1xA-PRR). By contrast, R846A did not affect Amphiphysin and Syndapin binding to Dyn1xA-PRR (Figure 3E, 3G). Therefore, R846, being part of an SDE, is the only residue we found to specifically regulate the Dyn1 interaction with Endophilin in the context of the full length tail (DynxA-PRR)”.

      Additionally, the reviewer notes that “the authors refer to the R846A mutation as specifically affecting Endophilin binding. This should be toned down, as it also affects Amphiphysin binding.” In the light of the above data and new quantitative analysis (Fig 3F-G), we have clarified the conclusion. However, to be clear that this statement is only correct in the context of the full-length DynxA-PRR, we amended texts as follows:

      P7. “By contrast, R846A did not affect Amphiphysin and Syndapin binding to Dyn1xA-PRR (Figure 3E, 3G). Therefore, R846, being part of an SDE, is the only residue we found to specifically regulate the Dyn1 interaction with Endophilin in the context of the full length tail (DynxA-PRR)”.

      New legends for Figure 3F and G have now been added as follows.

      “(F) The binding of Endophilin A, and Amphiphysin 1 and Syndapin1 to Dyn1xA-PRR (wild type) or R838A mutant quantified from Western blots in (E). n=14 (6 experiments with 2-4 replicates in each). Median and 95% confidential intervals are shown. Kruskal-Wallis with Dunn’s multiple comparisons test (**p (G) The binding of Endophilin A, and Amphiphysin 1 and Syndapin1 to Dyn1xA-PRR (wild type) or R846A mutant quantified from Western blots in (E). n=14 (6 experiments with 2-4 replicates in each). Median and 95% confidential intervals are shown. Kruskal-Wallis with Dunn’s multiple comparisons test was applied (*p

      Figure 3F-G (which are now 3H and 3I in the revised text): what do the star symbols represent in the graphs? I guess the abscissa represents retention time. Please write it clearly instead of a second ordinate for molecular mass, which does not make much sense if this reflects the estimate for the 3 conditions.

      The “stars” are crosses (x) and represent individual data points. The figure legends have been updated for clarity. The reviewer is correct that the X-axis is retention time (min). The second Y-axis is needed to define the points in the curve marked with crosses (x’s). The legends for Figure 3H and I are now changed as follows.

      “(H) SEC-MALS profiles for Dyn1xA alone (in green), Endophilin A SH3 alone (in red) and the complex of the two (in black) are plotted. The x-axis shows retention time. The left axis is the corresponding UV absorbance (280 nm) signals in solid lines, and the right axis shows the molar mass of each peak in crosses. The molecular weight of the complex was determined and tabulated in comparison with the predicted molecular weight. x represent individual data points.

      (I) SEC-MALS profiles for a high concentration of Dyn1xA-PRR/Endophilin A SH3 complex (0.5 mg) (in dark blue) and a low concentration of Dyn1xA-PRR/endophilin A SH3 complex (0.167 mg) (in blue). The x-axis shows retention time. The left axis is the corresponding UV absorbance (280 nm) signals in solid lines, and the right axis shows the molar mass of each peak in crosses. The molecular weight of the complex was determined and tabulated in the table. x represent individual data points.”

      Figure 4: The statement that "By contrast [to Dyn1xA], Endophilin A1 or A2 formed multiple clusters (1-5 clusters)" is not at all clear on the presented pictures. The authors should provide views of portions of axons with several varicosities, for the reader to appreciate the cases where there are more EndoA clusters than Dyn1 clusters.

      In the revised Figure S4, we added additional STED images for a region of axons with more EndoA1/2 clusters than Dyn1xA clusters. The locations of Dyn1xA and EndoA1/2 clusters are annotated in each image based on the local maximum of intensity, which is determined using our custom Matlab analysis scripts (Imoto, et al., Neuron 2022; for the description of the methods, please refer to the Point #14 below). We also added Figure S3 to describe our analysis pipelines. In the Dyn1xA channel, outer contour indicates 50% of local maxima (boundary of Dyn1xA cluster) while inner contour indicates 70% of local maxima of the clusters. In the EndoA1/2 channel, local maxima of the clusters are indicated as points. To reflect these changes, we modified text as below.

      P 9. “By contrast, Endophilin A1 or A2 formed multiple clusters (1-5 clusters) (Figure S4)”

      The legends for Figure S4 are now as follows.

      “Figure S4. Additional STED images for Figure 4.

      (A) The top image shows an axon containing multiple boutons. Signals show overexpression of GFP-tagged Dyn1xA (Dyn1xA) and mCherry-tagged Endophilin A1 (EndoA1). The bottom images show magnifications of four boutons in the top image. Red hot look-up table (LUT) images on the right side of Dyn1xA and EndoA1 images are enhanced contrast images. Outer and inner contours represent 50% and 70% of local maxima of the Dyn1xA, respectively. Black circles represent local maxima of Endophilin A1. In these boutons, multiple EndophilinA1 puncta are present.

      (B) The top image shows an axon congaing multiple boutons. Signals show overexpression of mCherry-tagged Dyn1xA (Dyn1xA) and GFP-tagged Endophilin A1 (EndoA1). The bottom images show magnifications of four boutons in the top image. Red hot LUT images on the right side of Dyn1xA and EndoA2 images are enhanced contrast images. Outer and inner contours represent 50% and 70% of local maxima of the Dyn1xA, respectively. Black circles represent local maxima of Endophilin A2. In these boutons, multiple EndophilinA2 puncta are present.

      (C) STED micrographs of the same synapses as in Figure 4E with an active zone marker Bassoon (magenta) visualized by antibody staining. GFP-tagged Dyn1xA, Dyn1xA S851D/857D or Dyn1xA R846A (green) are additionally stained with GFP-antibodies. Local maxima of Dyn1xA, Dyn1xA S851D/857D or Dyn1xA R846A signals and minimum distance to the active zone boundary are indicated by dark blue lines.”

      Moreover, overexpression of EndophilinA1/2-mCherry is not sufficient to assess its localization. Please consider either immunofluorescence or genome editing (e.g. Orange or TKIT techniques).

      We agree with the reviewer that overexpression obscures the endogenous localization of proteins. To address this point in our previous publication, we titrated the amount of plasmids for Dyn1xA-GFP and transfected neurons just for 20 hours – this protocol allowed us to uncover the endogenous localization of Dyn1xA despite the fact that it was overexpressed in wild-type neurons (Imoto, et al., 2022). We also confirmed this localization by ORANGE-based CRISPR knock-in of GFP-tag in the endogenous locus of Dyn1 just after the exon 23 and confirm the true endogenous localization of Dyn1xA (Imoto, et al., 2022). Similar approaches were taken by the Chapman lab to localize Synaptotagmin-1 and Synaptobrevin 2 in axons (Watson et al, 2023, eLife, PMID: 36729040). We did not emphasize this in the first submission, but we took the same approach for the EndoA1/2 localization. This does not mean that they also unmask the endogenous localization, and the reviewer is correct that additional evidence would strengthen the data here. Thus, as suggested, we have looked at the endogenous EndophilinA1 localization by antibody staining. As the reviewer is likely aware, EndophilinA1 also localizes to other places including dendrites and postsynaptic terminals, making it difficult to analyze the data. However, we observe colocalization of Dyn1xA with endogenous EndoA1. Thus, we believe that our major conclusion here drawn based on EndoA1/2-mCherry overexpression is valid (Reviewer’s Figure 1). Since the Endophilin signals in neighboring processes obscures its localization in synapses-of-interest, repeating this localization experiments with ORANGE-based knock-in would be ideal. However, with the lead author starting his own group and many validations needed to confirm the knock-in results, this experiment would require us at least 4-6 months, and thus, it is beyond the scope of our current study. We will follow up on this localization in the near future, but given that endophilin is required for ultrafast endocytosis (Watanabe, et al., Neuron 2018, PMID: 29953872) and these proteins need to be in condensates at the endocytic sites for accelerating the kinetics of endocytosis (Imoto, et al., Neuron 2022, PMID: 35809574), we are confident that endogenous

      EndoA1/2 are localized with Dyn1xA.

      The analysis of the confocal microscopy data is not explained. How is the number of clusters determined? How far apart are they? Confocal microscopy may not have the resolution to distinguish clusters within a synapse.

      We apologize for the insufficient description of the method. We had provided a more thorough description of the methods in our previous publication (Imoto, et al., Neuron 2022, PMID: 35809574). To make this more automated, we improved our custom Matlab scripts. Please note that all the analysis for the cluster location is performed on STED images, not on normal confocal images. To determine the cluster, first, presynaptic regions (based on Bassoon signals or Dyn1xA signals within boutons) in each STED image are cropped with 900 by 900 nm (regions-of-interest) ROIs. Then, our Matlab scripts calculate the local maxima of fluorescence intensity within the ROIs. To determine the distance between the active zone and the Dyn1xA or EndoA1/2 clusters, the Matlab scripts perform the same local maxima calculations in both channels and make contours at 50% intensity of the local maxima. The minimum distance reflects the shortest distance between the active zone and Dyn1xA/EndoA1/2 contours. To make these points clearer, we modified the main text and the Methods section. In addition, we have added workflow of these analysis as Figure S3.

      P9. Main. “Signals of these proteins are acquired by STED microscopy and analyzed by custom MATLAB scripts, similarly to our previous work23.”

      P20. Methods. “All the cluster distance measurements are performed on STED images. For the measurements, a custom MATLAB code package23 was modified using GPT-4 (OpenAI) to perform semi-automated image segmentation and analysis of the endocytic protein distribution relative to the active zone marked by Bassoon or relative to Dyn1xA cluster in STED images. First, the STED images were blurred with a Gaussian filter with radius of 1.2 pixels to reduce the Poisson noise and then deconvoluted twice using the built-in deconvblind function: the initial point spread function (PSF) input is measured from the unspecific antibodies in the STED images. The second PSF (enhanced PSF) input is chosen as the returned PSF from the initial run of blind deconvolution62. The enhanced PSF was used to deconvolute the STED images to be analyzed. Each time, 10 iterations were performed. All presynaptic boutons in each deconvoluted image were selected within 3030-pixel (0.81 mm2) ROIs based on the varicosity shape and bassoon or Dyn1xA signals. The boundary of active zone or Dyn1xA puncta was identified as the contour that represents half of the intensity of each local maxima in the Bassoon channel. The Dyn1xA clusters and Endophilin A clusters were picked by calculating pixels of local maxima. The distances between the Dyn1xA cluster and active zone boundary or Endophilin A clusters were automatically calculated correspondingly. For the distance measurement, MATLAB distance2curve function (John D'Errico 2024, MATLAB Central File Exchange) first calculated the distance between the local maxima pixel and all the points on the contour of the active zone or Dyn1xA cluster boundary. Next, the shortest distance was selected as the minimum distance. Signals over crossing the ROIs and the Bassoon signals outside of the transfected neurons were excluded from the analysis. The MATLAB scripts are available by request.”

      In the legend of Figure S3,

      “Protein localization in presynapses is determined by semi-automated MATLAB scripts (see Methods).

      (A) Series of deconvoluted STED images are segmented to obtain 50-100 presynapse ROIs in each condition.

      (B) Two representations of the MATLAB analysis interface are shown. The first channel (ch1, green) is processed to identify the pixels of local maxima within this channel. The second channel (ch2, magenta) is normally an active zone protein, Bassoon. Active zone boundary is determined by the contour generated at 50% intensity of the local maxima of ch2. The contours outside of the transfected neurons are manually selected on the interface and excluded from the analysis. Minimum distances from each pixel of the local maxima in ch1 to the contour in ch2 are calculated and shown in the composite image. The plot “Distance distribution” shows all the minimum distance identified in this presynapses ROI (unit of the y axis is nanometer). The plot “Accumulated distance distribution” shows the accumulated distance distribution from the initial to the current presynapses ROI. The plot “Histogram of total intensity” shows the intensity counts around individual local maxima pixels in ch1.”

      For the STED microscopy, a representation of the processed image (after deconvolution) and the localization of the peaks would be important to assess the measurement of distances. If Dyn1xA S851/857D is more diffuse, are there still peaks to measure for every synapse?

      We thank the reviewer for bringing up this important question. In Figure S4C, we have added the position of the local maxima of wild-type and mutant Dyn1xA shown in the main Figure 4E. As the reviewer pointed out, when a protein is more diffuse, it is difficult to find the peak intensity by STED. However, since these proteins are still found at a higher density within a very confined space of a presynapse and synapses are packed with organelles like synaptic vesicles and macromolecules, signals from even diffuse proteins can be detected as clusters, and local maxima can be detected in these images.

      To illustrate this point better, we added Reviewer’s Figure 2 below. In this experiment, we transfected neurons with a typical amount of plasmids (2.0 µg/well) or ~10x lower amount (0.25 µg/well). When the density of cytosolic proteins is high (Reviewer’s Figure 2A), the depletion laser has to be strong enough to induce sufficient stimulated emission and resolve protein localization. Insufficient power would produce low resolution images, leading to inappropriate detection of the local maxima (Reviewer’s Figure 1A). Thus, we set our excitation and depletion laser powers to resolve the protein localization to ~40-80 nm at presynapses. Furthermore, to avoid mislocalization of proteins due to the overexpression, we use 0.25-0.5 ug/well (in 12-well plate) of plasmid DNA for transfection, which is around 10 times lower than the amount used in the typical lipofectamine neuronal transfection protocol (Imoto, et al., Neuron 2022). We also change the medium around 20 hours after the transfection instead of the typical 48 hours (Imoto, et al., Neuron 2022). With these modifications and settings, we can obtain the location of the local maxima of the diffuse signals (Reviewer’s Figure 1B and Figure 4E and Figure S4). We modified the Method section to make these points clearer.

      P 17, “Briefly, plasmids were mixed well with 2 µl Lipofectamine in 100 µl Neurobasal media and incubated for 20 min. For Dyn1xA and Endophilin A expressions, 0.5 µg of constructs were used to reduce the overexpression artifacts23. The plasmid mixture was added to each well with 1 ml of fresh Neurobasal media supplemented with 2 mM GlutaMax and 2% B27. After 4 hours, the medium was replaced with the pre-warmed conditioned media. To prevent too much expression of proteins, neurons were transfected for less than 20 hours and fixed for imaging.”

      P 20, “Quality of the STED images are examined by comparing the confocal and STED images and measuring the size of signals at synapses and PSF (non-specific signals from antibodies).”

      Legends for Figure S4C,

      “(C) STED micrographs of the synapses shown in Figure 4F with an active zone marker Bassoon (magenta). GFP-tagged Dyn1xA, Dyn1xA S851D/857D or Dyn1xA R846A are visualized by antibody staining of GFP (green). Local maxima of Dyn1xA, Dyn1xA S851D/857D or Dyn1xA R846A signals and minimum distance to the active zone boundary are overlaid.”

      Figures 5 and 6: No specific comment. The data and its analysis are very nice and elegant. The comment on the lack of rescue of Dyn1xA on endosome maturation may be a bit overstated, because many "controls" (shRNA control Figure S5 or Dyn3 KO in Imoto et al. 2022) have a significant number of endosomes 10 s after stimulation.

      We thank the reviewer for noting the strength of our data and pointing out this issue on endosomal resolution. In particular, the reviewer is concerned about our interpretation of the ferritin positive endosomes present at 10 s in time-resolved electron microscopy experiments. Indeed, the number of ferritin positive endosomes in Dyn1 KO, Dyn1xA OEx neurons (0.1/profile) is similar to the control conditions: scramble shRNA control (0.1/profile, Figure S5) and Dyn3KO neurons (0.2/profile) in our previous study (Imoto et al. 2022). Although we do not consider Dyn3 KO as a control, given the presence of abnormal endosomal structures, we agree with the reviewer that scramble shRNA control in Figure S5 does indicate that some ferritin-positive endosomes even at 10 s after stimulation. We would like to note that this result is in stark contrast to our previous studies where we observed the number of ferritin positive endosomes returning to the basal level in both wild-type neurons and many scramble shRNA controls (Watanabe et al. 2014, 2018, Imoto et al 2022). Thus, the majority of the data we have indicate that the number of ferritin positive endosomes returns to basal level by 10 s, suggesting that endosomes are typically resolved into synaptic vesicles by this time. However, given that we do not know the nature of the inconsistency here and we cannot exclude the possibility of overexpression artifact of Dyn1xA as an alternative, we changed the following lines.

      P. 10, “Interestingly, the number of ferritin-positive endosomes did not return to the baseline (Figure 5E, F) as in previous studies3,35,36, suggesting that Dyn1xA may not fully rescue the knockout phenotypes or that overexpression of Dyn1xA causes abnormal endosomal morphology.”

      By the way, why did the authors use Dyn1 KO in this study, and not Dyn1,3 DKO as in Imoto et al. 2022?

      This is simply because Dyn3KO displayed an endosomal defect in our previous study (Imoto et al 2022), and we wanted to focus on endocytic phenotypes of Dyn1 KO and mutant rescues in this study.

      In the Discussion, the authors present the binding sites (for endophilin and amphiphysin SH3 domains) as independent. However, these proteins form dimers or even multimers as they cluster around the neck of a forming vesicle. Even though they provide evidence in vitro (Figure 3) that in these conditions of high concentration one dyn1xA-PRR binds one SH3 domain, in cells multiple binding sites on the PRR to these proteins may involve avidity effects, as discussed for example in Rosendale et al. 2019 doi 10.1038/s41467-019-12434-9. For example, the high affinity binding of Dyn1-PRR to amphiphysin cannot be explained only by the sequence 830-838.

      The reviewer suggests “In the Discussion, the authors present the binding sites (for endophilin and amphiphysin SH3 domains) as independent.” However, we do not claim these interactions are functionally independent, except in the context of in vitro experiments where they are sequence-independent.

      They also suggest “However, these proteins form dimers or even multimers as they cluster around the neck of a forming vesicle”. However we do not agree with this in the context of our Discussion, because the evidence of multimers and clustering is convincing but is entirely in vitro data.

      Thirdly they comment that “For example, the high affinity binding of Dyn1-PRR to amphiphysin cannot be explained only by the sequence 830-838.” We fully agree with the statement and felt we had addressed this in the manuscript. To explain, it’s important to point out our relatively new concept here and previously reported by us (Lin Luo et al 2016, PMID: 26893375) of the existence and importance of SDE and LDE for SH3 domains (Endophilin here, syndapin in our previous report). These elements act at a distance from the so-called core PxxP motifs and they provide much higher affinity and specificity than the core region alone. We had further mentioned this in the p11 discussion “Although this is a previously characterized binding site for Amphiphysin and is also present in Dyn1xB-PRR, the extended C-terminal tail of Dyn1xA contains short and long distance elements (SDE and LDE) essential for Endophilin binding, making it higher affinity for Endophilin.” Because the NMR identified F862 as a chemical shift for dynamin, we performed a pulldown with this mutant in the xA746-798 construct (which only contains the higher affinity site) and found that indeed “.F862A reduced Endophilin binding 29% (pOverall, the reviewer correctly points out that “multiple binding sites on the PRR to these proteins may involve avidity effects*” could play a role in vivo. We agree that avidity is an additional possibility, not examined in our study. Therefore, as suggested, we added the following sentence to the discussion on the SDE and LDE impacts.

      P. 11. “Our pull-down results showed that R846A abolished endophilin binding to xA806-864 (which contains only the second and higher affinity binding site and the associated SDE (A839) and LDE (F862)) and reduced about 40% of endophilin binding to the Dyn1xA-PRR (which contains both binding sites) without affecting its interaction with Amphiphysin, providing important partner specificity, although we cannot exclude the possibility that avidity effects may additionally come in play in vivo 42

      Reviewer #1 (Significance (Required)):

      This study provides a significant advance on the mechanisms of dynamin recruitment to endocytic zones in presynaptic terminals. The work adds a significant step by experienced labs (Robinson, Watanabe) who have provided important insight in the mechanisms by many publications in the last years.

      We thank the reviewer for the careful read of our manuscript and positive outlook of our work.

      Reviewer #2 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      1. This is a compelling study that reports a key discovery to understand the molecular mechanism of ultrafast endocytosis. The authors demonstrate that the Dynamin splice version 1xA (Dynamin 1xA) uniquely binds Endophilin A, in contrast to Dynamin splice version 1xB (Dynamin 1xB) that does not bind Endophilin A and it is not required for ultrafast endocytosis. In addition, the Endophilin A binding occurs in a dephosphorylation-regulated manner. The study is carefully carried out and it is based on high quality data obtained by means of advanced biochemical methodologies, state-of-art flash-freezing electron microscopy analysis, superresolution microscopy and dynamic imaging of exo-and endocytosis in neuronal cultures. The results convincingly support the conclusions.

      We thank the reviewer for supporting the conclusions of our study.

      1. Although additional experiments are not essential to support the claims of the paper there is room, however, for improvement within the pHluorin experiments. These experiments, that are clearly informative and consistent with the rest of experimental data, do not apply the useful approach to separate endo- from exocytosis. The use of bafilomycin or folimycin to block the vesicular proton pump allows the unmasking the endocytosis that is occurring during the stimulus, that should correspond to ultrafast endocytosis. It would be very elegant to demonstrate that such a component, as expected according to the electron microscopy data, requires the binding of Endophilin A to Dynamin 1xA. If the authors have the pHluorin experiments running, the suggested experiments are very much doable because the reagents and the methodology is already in place and the new data could be generated in around six weeks.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. The reviewer is concerned that vGlut1 pHluorin experiment in Figure 6 may not correspond to ultrafast endocytosis. We agree that bafilomycin/folimycin treatment will reveal the amount of endocytosis that takes place while neurons are stimulated. However, we are not certain that endocytosis during this phase would fully correspond to ultrafast endocytosis because reacidification of endocytosed vesicles typically takes 3-4 s (Atluri and Ryan, 2006, PMID: 16495458; although see https://elifesciences.org/articles/36097) and thus, the nature of endocytosis cannot be fully determined by this assay. To claim that endocytosis measured by pHluorin assay during stimulation all correspond to ultrafast endocytosis, we would need to perform very careful work to track single pHluorin molecules at the ultrastructural level and corelate their internalization to pHluorin signals. Perhaps, a rapid acid quench technique used by the Haucke group would also be appropriate to estimate the amount of ultrafast endocytosis (Soykan et al. 2017 PMID: 28231467), but we are not set up to perform such experiments here. Also, our lead author, Yuuta Imoto, is leaving the lab to start up his own group, and it will take us months rather than weeks to get the requested experiments done. Since the point of this experiment was to test whether the interaction of Dyn1xA and EndoA is essential for protein retrieval regardless of the actual mechanisms and the reviewer acknowledges that this point is sufficiently supported by the experiments, we will set this experiment as the priority for the next paper.

      Instead of the bafilomycin or rapid acid quenching experiments, we have now added data from vglut1-pHluorin experiment with a single action potential. With a single action potential, all synaptic vesicle recycling is mediated by ultrafast endocytosis in these neurons (Watanabe et al, 2013 PMID: 24305055; Watanabe et al. 2014, PMID: 25296249). Our electron microscopy experiments in Figure 5 is also performed with a single action potential. As with 10 action potentials, 20 Hz experiments, re-acidification of vglut1-pHluorin is blocked when Dyn1 and EndophilinA1 interaction is disrupted (Figure 6 F-I). We added a description of this result as below.

      P 11. “Similar defects were observed when the experiments were repeated with a single action potential – synaptic vesicle recycling is mediated by ultrafast endocytosis with this stimulation paradigm25 (S851/857 recovery is 73.3% above the baseline; R846A, recovery is 30.0% above the baseline) (Figure S9 A-D). Together, these results suggest that the 20 amino acid extension of Dyn1xA is important for recycling of synaptic vesicle proteins mediated by specific phosphorylation and Endophilin binding sites within the extension.”

      The methods are carefully explained. Some of the experiments are only replicated in two cultures and the authors should justify the reasons to convince the audience that the approaches used have enough low variability for not increasing the n number. The pHluorin experiments, however, are performed only in a single culture; they should replicate these experiments in at least 3 different cultures (three different mice).

      The reviewer is correct. The variability is very low in our ultrastructural studies and STED imaging, and thus, in all our previous publications, two independent cultures are used. We do agree that in the ideal case, we would like to have three independent cultures, but given the nature of ultrastructural studies (control, mutants, and multiple time points), triplicating the data would add another year to our work. We are currently developing AI-based segmentation analysis, and once this pipeline is established, we will be able to increase N. However, please note that for these experiments, we examine around 200 synapses from each condition in electron microscopy studies (Table S2)– these numbers are far more than the gold standard in the field. Likewise, 50-100 synapses are examined for STED experiments (Table S2). To examine variability of our analysis results, we compared a significance between the dataset using cumulative curves and Kolmogorov–Smirnov test (Figure S11). As shown in the summarized data and p value in each condition, there are no significant difference between the datasets.

      For pHluorin analysis, the reviewer is correct. We repeated the experiments twice to increase the N after the initial submission. The data are consistent, and the conclusions are not changed by the additional experiments (Figure 6 and Figure S9). We also changed the Statistical analysis section in Methods as below.

      P. 19. “All electron microscopy data are pooled from multiple experiments after examined on a per-experiment basis (with all freezing on the same day); none of the pooled data show significant deviation from each replicate (Table S2).”

      p 19, “All fluorescence microscopy data were first examined on a per-experiment basis. For Figure 4, the data were pooled; none of the pooled data show significant deviation from each replicate (Figure S11 and Table S2). Sample sizes were 2 independent cultures, at least 50-100 synapses from 4 different neurons in each condition..”

      Legends for Figure S11

      Figure S11. Data variability in Figure 4.

      Cumulative curves are made from each dataset of (A) distance of Endophilin A1 puncta from the edge of Dyn1xA puncta, (B) distance of Endophilin A2 puncta from the edge of Dyn1xA puncta, distance distribution of Dyn1xA from active zone edge in (C) neurons expressing wild-type Dyn1xA-GFP, (D) Dyn1xA-S851/857-GFP and (E) Dyn1xA-R846-GFP. n > 4 coverslips from 2 independent cultures. Kolmogorov–Smirnov (KS) test, p values are indicated in each plot.

      Minor comments: 4. Prior studies referenced appropriately and the text and figures are clear and accurate.

      We thank the reviewer for the careful read of our manuscript.

      The authors should discuss about the mediators (enzymes) responsible for dephosphorylation of phosphor-box 2 that is key for the Dynamin 1xa-Endophilin A interaction.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. We added a discussion on a potential mediator, Dyrk1, as below.

      P. 12. ”What are the kinases that regulate Dyn1? The phosphorylation of phosphobox-1 is mediated by Glycogen synthase kinase-3 beta (GSK3ß) and Cyclin-dependent kinase 5 (CDK5)17, while phosphobox-2 is likely phosphorylated by Trisomy 21-linked dual-specificity tyrosine phosphorylation-regulated kinase 1A (Mnb/Dyrk1)44,45 since Ser851 in phosphobox-2 is shown to be phosphorylated by Mnb/Dyrk1 in vitro32. Furthermore, overexpression of Mnb/Dyrk1 in cultured hippocampal neurons causes slowing down the retrieval of a synaptic vesicle protein vGlut146. Consistently, our data showed that phosphomimetic mutations in phosphobox-2 results disruption of Dyn1xA localization, perturbation of ultrafast endocytosis, and slower kinetics of vGlut1 retrieval. However, how these kinases interplay to regulate the interaction of Dyn1xA, Syndapin1 and Endophilin A1 for ultrafast endocytosis is unknown.”

      It would be very helpful to include a final cartoon depicting the key protein-protein interactions regulated by dephosphorylation (activity) and the sequence of molecular events that leads to ultrafast endocytosis

      As suggested, we made a model figure, (new Figure 7) showing how Dyn1xA and its interaction with EndoA and Syndapin1 increases the kinetics of endocytosis at synapses. Regarding the sequence of molecular events, we think that there are already dephosphorylated fraction of Dyn1xA molecules sitting on the endocytic zone at the resting state and they mediate ultrafast endocytosis. However, it is equally possible that activity-dependent dephosphorylation of Dyn1xA also may play a role (Jing et al. 2011, PMID: 21730063). However, we have no evidence about the sequence of activity dependent modulation of Dyn1xA and its binding partners during ultrafast endocytosis yet. This is much beyond what we have reported in this work and therefore, excluded from the model figure. We added the following to the end of the discussion:

      p13, “Nonetheless, these results suggest that Dyn1xA long C-terminal extension allows multivalent interaction with endocytic proteins and that the high affinity interaction with Endophilin A1 permits phospho-regulation of their interaction and defines its function at synapses (Figure S7)”.

      Figure legend Figure 7,

      “Figure 7. Schematics depicting how specific isoforms Dyn1xA and Endophilin A mediate ultrafast endocytosis.

      A splice variant of dynamin 1, Dyn1xA, but not other isoforms/variants can mediate ultrafast endocytosis. (A) Dyn1xA has 20 amino acid extension which introduces a new high affinity Endophilin A1 binding site. Three amino acids, R846 at the splice site boundary, S851 and S857, act as long-distance element which can enhance affinity of proline rich motifs (PRM) to SH3 motif from outside of the PRM core sequence PxxP. (B) At a resting state, Dyn1xA accumulates at endocytic zone with SH3 containing BAR protein Syndapin 123 and Endophilin A1/2. When phosphobox-1 (Syndapin1 binding) and phosphobox-2 (Endophilin A1/2 binding, around S851/S857) within Dyn1xA PRD are phosphorylated, these proteins are diffuse within the cytoplasm. A dephosphorylated fraction of Dyn1xA molecules can interact with these BAR domain proteins. Loss of interactions including Dyn1xA-R846A or -S851/857D mutations, disrupts endocytic zone pre-accumulations. Consequently, ultrafast endocytosis fails.”

      Reviewer #2 (Significance (Required)):

      This is a remarkable and important advance in the field of endocytosis. The study reports a key discovery to understand the molecular mechanism of ultrafast endocytosis. Scientist interested in synaptic function and the general audience of cell biologist interested in membrane trafficking will very much value this study. The mechanism reported will potentially be included in textbooks in the near future.

      My field of expertise includes molecular mechanisms of presynaptic function and membrane trafficking.

      I have not enough experience to evaluate the quality of the NMR experiments, however, I do not have any problem at all with, in my opinion, elegant results reported.

      We thank the reviewer for the positive outlook of our manuscript.

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      Reply to the reviewers

      Please find below a point-by-point reply to the reviewers, with our comments in plain text, and reviewer comments in italics. Direct quotations of MS revisions in the below point-by-point reply are in quotation marks.


      *Reviewer #1 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      **The manuscript "Circadian regulation of protein turnover and proteome renewal" investigates the role of protein degradation in the circadian control of proteostasis. The researchers suggest that the relatively static levels of protein levels in a cell are incongruent with the known oscillation in protein synthesis. They therefore hypothesize that there should be a compensatory mechanism to counteract rhythmic protein synthesis, rhythmic protein degradation. To investigate this, they employ bulk pulse chase labeling to study the process of degradation. They identify a synchronization between the creation and turnover of proteins in a cell, implying the clock helps to maintain homeostasis through a novel mechanism. They note that these phases align with energy availability, granting a plausible reasoning behind the biological implementation of this regulation. In summary, this is a sound manuscript that adds to the research field. The experiments in this manuscript are well thought out, organized, and explained. In general, the authors do not go further in their conclusions than I think is warranted given the data that they have, though I think that there are some key items that should be addressed before the publication of this manuscript. *

      Thank you for reading and appreciating our work

      Major notes: 1) In figure 1, a clearer idea of what the ** means would be appreciated. What was the standard of significance for this measure?

      Thank you, this was already reported in the methods section but is now reported in the figure legend also.

      * 2) In Figure 1b, it is important to note clearly in the text that the this is not a direct measure of protein degradation, but a subtractive proxy. Though I don't think that necessarily makes the authors conclusions incorrect, the same result could also be obtained if an extra 15% of the proteins were moved into the insoluble fraction. This is the same for Figure 1E and F. *

      Considering only the pulse shown in the left-hand graph of 1B, the reviewer is correct that this could arise by rhythmic partitioning of nascently synthesised proteins between digitonin-soluble and insoluble fractions. This could not readily explain the variation in the % of nascently synthesised digitonin-soluble protein that is degraded however (right hand graph), hence the need for pulse-chase rather than pulse alone. As such, we do not exclude circadian-regulated solubility of nascently synthesised protein or that there is a rhythm of protein synthesis in the soluble fraction, both are likely true. Rather Figure 1B indicates the relative proportion of nascently-synthesised protein in the soluble fraction that is degraded within 1h of synthesis is not constant over time. This is consistent with current understanding of the regulated increase in activity of protein quality control mechanisms (including proteasome-mediated degradation) that are required to maintain protein homeostasis upon an increase in bulk translation (Gandin and Topisirovic, Translation, 2014).

      In contrast, the lysates probed in Fig 1F were extracted in denaturing urea/thiourea buffer and so cannot be explained by variation in protein solubility.

      Considering 1E, to explain this result entirely through solubility changes would require that puromycinylated polypeptides to become more soluble, at discrete phases of the circadian cycle, but only when the proteasome is inhibited. Whilst we cannot formerly exclude this possibility, we are not aware of evidence to support it, whereas there is prior evidence supporting circadian regulation of protein synthesis and proteasome activity.

      To communicate all of this more clearly we have made the following revisions to the text:

      Page 6: ".The experiment was performed over a 24h time series followed by soluble protein extraction using digitonin, which preferentially permeabilises the plasma membrane over organelle membrane."

      Page 6: " Importantly, the proportion of degraded protein varied over time, being highest at around the same time as increased protein synthesis (Fig 1B), indicating time-of-day variation in digitonin-soluble protein turnover which cannot be solely attributed to previously reported circadian regulation of protein solubility (Stangherlin et al, 2021b). Rather, it suggests that global rates of protein degradation may be co-ordinated with protein synthesis rates, and may vary over the circadian cycle."

      Fig 1a legend: "...with digitonin buffer"

      Fig 1e legend: "...in digitonin buffer"

      Fig1f legend: "... and extracted with urea/thiourea buffer"

      * 3) In figure 1c, is the noted oscillation in protease activity due to the oscillation of these proteins? What are the predicted mechanisms behind this? I don't think that this is necessarily within the scope of this paper but should be addressed in the discussion. Also, the peak degradation rate from Figure 1B is 4 hours before the peak enzyme activities. How can this observation be reconciled? *

      Besides this study, our two previous proteomic investigations of the fibroblast circadian proteome detected no biologically significant or consistent rhythm in proteasome subunit abundance (Wong et al., EMBO J, 2021; Hoyle et al., Science Translational Medicine, 2017). Moreover, proteasomes are long-lived stable complexes whose activity is determined by a combination of substrate-level, allosteric and post-translational regulatory mechanisms that includes their reversible sequestration into storage granules (Albert et al., PNAS, 2020; Fu et al., PNAS, 2021; Yasuda et al., Nature, 2020). It is therefore very likely that the observed rhythm in trypsin- and chymotrypsin-like activity occurs post-translationally. Proteasome subunit composition is also known to change, which might be another reason for differences between the protease activities (Marshall and Vierstra, Front Mol Biosci, 2019; Zheng et al., J Neurochem, 2012).

      Due to the nature of the experiment, the degradation rate inferred from Figure 1B does not reflect proteasome activity, exclusively. Rather it reflects the combined sum of processes that remove nascently produced proteins from the cell's digitonin-soluble fraction, which includes proteasomal degradation, but also autophagy, protein secretion and sequestration into other compartments. Therefore, the peak degradation in Fig 1B would not necessarily be expected to coincide with the peak of proteasome activity in Fig 1C. Figure 1A/B is intended as an exemplar for the investigation's rationale and was the first to be performed chronologically.

      To communicate this succinctly, we have revised the relevant text as follows:

      Page 7: "Previous proteomics studies under similar conditions have revealed minimal circadian variation in proteasome subunit abundance (Wong et al, 2022), suggesting that proteasome activity rhythmicity, and therefore rhythms in UPS-mediated protein degradation, are regulated post-translationally (Marshall & Vierstra, 2019; Hansen et al, 2021)"

      * 4) For the pSILAC analysis, the incorporation scheme has a six-hour window between the comparison of the light and heavy peptides. This makes it somewhat difficult to assess whether you are looking a clock effect from T1 or T1+6. This does not negate the findings, but it does question when the synthesis is occurring and what is being compared, which I think should be more clearly discussed in the manuscript. This is discussed later in the manuscript but should be mentioned in this section. *

      Thank you for this suggestion. To communicate this more clearly, we have rearranged the labels at the top of schematic graphs in figures 2b and 3b in order to clearly distinguish the pulse-labelling window from the time of sample collection. The following text has been added to the methods section:

      Page 9: "To enable sufficient heavy labelling for detection, a 6h time window was employed, thus measuring synthesis and abundance within each quarter of the circadian cycle "

      * 5) There are no error bars on figure 2C. What the pSILAC just done in a singlet? If so, the rhythms estimation is likely a large overestimate and should be noted. *

      This first pSILAC experiment was performed in singlet with respect to external time for the RAIN analysis, but is duplicate for the two-way ANOVA that is also reported, by treating each cycle as a separate replicate. In fact, the 6.2% of proteins that were significantly rhythmically abundant by RAIN actually agree well with two previous experiments we performed using mouse fibroblasts under identical conditions: the first with 3h resolution over 3 cycles in singlet (7% rhythmic), the second with 4 biological independent replicates over one cycle (8% rhythmic) (Wong et al., EMBO J, 2021). The curve fits shown in 2C are the standard damped sine wave fits, with p-values from RAIN reported in the figure legend.­­

      Most importantly however, and as noted in the text, the absolute % of rhythmically abundant proteins is rather irrelevant and indeed the absolute numbers of 'rhythmic' proteins can vary wildly, dependent on the analysis method and stringency. The only important point to be gleaned from the estimates shown in Figure 2e is that by either statistical test, most rhythmically abundant proteins are not rhythmically synthesised, and vice versa; however, the % of proteins that are both rhythmically synthesised and rhythmically abundant is 6 to 11--fold higher than would be expected by chance (taking proteins rhythmic by RAIN and ANOVA, respectively; in both cases the overlap between the two sets is highly significant) . This serves as a positive control, i.e., a minority of proteins show correlated rhythms of synthesis and abundance that are consistent with the canonical activity of 'clock-controlled genes' which cannot be explained by overestimation of rhythmicity.

      Odds Ratio comparison synthesis vs total

      Synthesis rhythmic by RAIN - listA size=148, e.g. A8Y5H7, B2RUR8, E9Q4N7

      Total rhythmic by RAIN - listB size=149, e.g. A1A5B6, A2A6T1, A2AI08

      Intersection size=34, e.g. A8Y5H7, O08795, O54910

      Union size=263, e.g. A8Y5H7, B2RUR8, E9Q4N7

      Genome size=2528

      Contingency Table:

      notA inA

      notB 2265 114

      inB 115 34

      Overlapping p-value=5.4e-13

      Odds ratio=5.9

      Overlap tested using Fisher's exact test (alternative=greater)

      Jaccard Index=0.1

      Synthesis rhythmic by ANOVA - listA size=66, e.g. A8Y5H7, O35639, O55143

      Total rhythmic by ANOVA - listB size=83, e.g. A8Y5H7, B2RQC6, E9Q6J5

      Intersection size=16, e.g. A8Y5H7, P22561-2, Q3TB82

      Union size=133, e.g. A8Y5H7, O35639, O55143

      Genome size=2528

      Contingency Table:

      notA inA

      notB 2395 50

      inB 67 16

      Overlapping p-value=9.7e-11

      Odds ratio=11.4

      Overlap tested using Fisher's exact test (alternative=greater)

      Jaccard Index=0.1

      Nevertheless, we agree with the reviewer's general point and have revised the text as follows:

      Page 9: "... and may be susceptible to overestimation of rhythmicity."

      Page 9: "Consistent with similar previous studies, Page 9: "The proportion of such proteins was more than expected by chance (pMethods, Page 21: "...(n=1 per timepoint)"

      * 6) Why were the genes selected in 2C? these are not discussed anywhere else in the manuscript.*

      These are simply illustrative examples so that the reader can better understand what we mean, i.e., two proteins in different phases and one that did not change, all within a similar range of abundance. The selected proteins were not discussed because we do not expect the reader to attach any specific meaning to them. We have revised the figure to include in 2C examples of each rhythmicity category shown in 2E. To make this clear, we now state the following:

      Figure 2 legend: "No specific meaning is inferred from the protein identities”.

      • 7) The authors note that for Figure 2 "These observations are consistent with widespread rhythmic regulation of protein degradation." However, only 5-10% of the proteome is oscillating at any level and less with a discrepancy between synthesis and abundance, so "widespread" is an exaggeration and this statement should be limited to the degradation in the rhythmic proteome. *

      We take the reviewer's point, but the term rhythmic proteome is also inaccurate since half the proteins with rhythmic degradation did not show an abundance rhythm in both mass spec experiments. We therefore revised this sentence as follows:

      Page 10: "These observations are consistent with widespread temporal organisation of protein degradation within the circadian-regulated proteome."

      * 8) The authors note that their more developed strategy in figure 3 would allow for the detection of less abundant proteins. However, they do not discuss that they in fact found less proteins overall, or if they were able to detect proteins of lower abundance. This is of some concern in determining if this is indeed the better method that they predict. How can the authors reconcile this issue? How can they rationalize this explains their increase in oscillating elements? *

      Thank you for raising this point, we did not explain ourselves sufficiently clearly. As stated in the revised text, once we had analysed the first iteration of pSILAC (Fig 2), we realised that detection of heavy-labelled proteins was "inevitably limited and biased the proteome coverage towards abundant proteins with higher synthesis rates". In other words, in order to be considered in our analysis both unlabelled and heavy-labelled peptides needed to be detected in every sample at every time point. In fact, if we do not consider heavy-labelling, the overall coverage in the Fig 3 experiment (6577 proteins) was better than the Figure 2 experiment (6264 proteins), as expected, due to technical improvements in the methods used (by the time of the experiment in Fig. 3, we were able to perform the analysis using mass spectrometry techniques with better fractionation and detection, namely FAIMS and MS3). When the analysis criteria are applied however, this falls to 2302 and 2528 proteins, respectively. Because of the way that mass spectrometry works, many proteins needed to be excluded from analysis because the heavy label wasn't detected in one or more samples. In these cases, we cannot infer that no heavy-labelled protein was present in that sample or even that it was present at lower levels than other samples - it simply wasn't detected and therefore we cannot make any quantitative comparisons. Non-detection of any given heavy peptide may occur for several reasons, the most likely being that it co-elutes from the chromatography column at the same time as other much more abundant (light) peptides and simply escapes detection. This is an unavoidable limitation of the technique, we hope the reviewer can understand our need to restrict the analysis to those proteins whose nascent synthesis, and total abundance in the MMC fraction, can be confidently quantified.

      As the experiments in Fig 2 and Fig 3 were performed independently, with separate TMT sets and different instrumentation, we are also unable to compare absolute abundances of the proteins between the two.

      To communicate this more clearly we have amended Figures 2e and 3e to state the total coverage in the legends, as well as clearly stating the coverage of heavy-labelled proteins in the figure itself. We have also added the following explanation to the text:

      Page 11:

      “Despite enriching for only one cellular compartment, the overall coverage in this experiment was similar to the previous one (6577 and 6264 proteins, respectively), due to the altered and more targeted approach; with heavy peptides detected for 2302 proteins."

      *9) In the comparison of complex turnover rates, the authors need to provide a metric that backs their statement that "the majority of component subunits not only showed similar average heavy to total protein ratios but also a similar change in synthesis over the daily cycle" for figure 3F. *

      Our apologies for this oversight, this is now presented in new Fig S3D.

      * 10) In reference to the AHA incorporation, why is the hypothesis not that, like the puramycin, you would not see oscillation unless you add BTZ? Shouldn't the active degradation regulate the incorporation of AHA such that there is no visible rhythm unless you suppress degradation? *

      AHA is a methionine analogue that is sparsely incorporated into polypeptide chains with minimal effect on protein function/structure (Dietrich et al., PNAS, 2006). Unlike puromycin, therefore, AHA does not lead to chain termination or protein misfolding/degradation (Dermit et al., Mol Biosyst, 2017) and so pulsed application at different phases of the circadian cycle is sufficient to reveal protein synthesis rhythms. The novelty in Fig 3H is the combination of AHA labelling with native PAGE that allows us to validate rhythmic production of high molecular weight protein complexes. This would not be possible with puromycin because prematurely-terminated polypeptide chains are not able to assemble into native complexes unless chain termination happens to occur at the extreme C-terminus and the C-terminus does not partake in any intermolecular interactions within the assembled complex.

      * 11) The authors claim that there is enrichment of the actin cytoskeleton, but where this data can be found should be explained. The only thing that is shown is a few selected graphs of proteins in this pathway. *

      We previously reported circadian regulation of the actin cytoskeleton in Hoyle et al. (Sci Trans Med, 2017). The extremely high relative amplitude of Beta-actin (the structural component of microfilaments) in the MMC fraction is, in and of itself, entirely sufficient to demonstrate a circadian rhythm in the relative ratio of globular to filamentous actin that was originally identified by Ueli Schibler's lab (Gerber et al., Cell, 2013) and then shown to have a cell-autonomous basis in fibroblasts in Hoyle et al (2017). We have included further examples of an actin-binding protein (Corinin1b) and a motor protein (Myosin 6) to further illustrate this, but do not feel further discussion is warranted because it was comprehensively addressed in our previous work. The enrichment for actin was determined by GO analysis, which is now shown in the Fig 4A and referred to in the text.

      The important point in Fig 4C is the difference in phase with the examples shown in Fig 4B and summarised in Figure 4A, i.e., there are a small number of proteins whose presence in the MMC fraction is highest in advance of the majority of rhythmically abundant proteins, but this earlier group doesn't show any significant synthesis rhythm. Actin is one of the most abundant cellular proteins, and by mass it accounts for 67% of the circadian variation of rhythmically abundant proteins that peak in this fraction at the same phase. All these data and analyses are available for scrutiny in Supplementary Table 2.

      To communicate this more clearly we have expanded on this point as follows:

      Page 13: " These proteins were enriched by 9-fold for actin and associated regulators of the actin cytoskeleton (q* 12) The authors note an oscillation in the total levels of p-eif2, commenting that these do not arise from the rhythms in total eif2a but temperature and feeding rhythms. However, unless I misunderstood, this work was done in fibroblast cell culture, so in this case, where would these temperature and feeding rhythms come from? *

      We were insufficiently clear. Daily rhythms of p-eIF2 have been observed under physiological conditions in mouse, in vivo. We do not observe similar rhythms in cultured fibroblasts under constant conditions unless the cells are challenged by stress. By inference therefore, it seems likely that daily rhythms of p-eIF2 in vivo arise from the interaction between cell-autonomous mechanisms and daily systemic cues such as, insulin/IGF-1 signalling and body temperature that are in turn driven by daily rhythms in CNS control, daily feed/fast rhythms and daily rest/activity rhythms, respectively. We have amended the text as follows:

      Page 15: "...and so suggest that daily p-eIF2α rhythms in mouse tissues likely arise through the interaction between cell-autonomous mechanisms and daily cycles of systemic cues, e.g., insulin/IGF-1 signalling and body temperature rhythms driven by daily feed/fast and rest/activity cycles, respectively."

      * 13) In Figure 5d, the treatment impeding degradation is causing cell death while the inhibition of translation does not. However, wouldn't too much, or not enough, translation, without compensatory regulation from degradation cause a problem in the same way that degradation does? *

      It is well-established that acute treatment with high concentrations of proteasomal inhibitors rapidly leads to proteotoxic stress that will trigger apoptosis unless resolved (Dantuma and Lindsten, Cardiovasc Res, 2010). Treatment with CHX is certainly stressful to cells, but in a different way, and cells die through mechanisms generally regarded to be necrotic and certainly do not involve the canonical proteotoxic stress responses that are activated by MG132 and similar drugs. Our findings show that, by whatever mechanisms cells die with CHX treatment, it does not change over the circadian cycle whereas death via proteotoxic stress does, consistent with our prediction. We hope the reviewer agrees it is beyond the scope of our study to explain why CHX-mediated cell death does not show a circadian rhythm in mouse fibroblasts.

      *Reviewer #1 (Significance (Required)):

      *The information that stems from this work is relevant and of interest to circadian clock field as how the regulation of the output of the circadian clock is implemented is still a major question in the field. This manuscript suggests a novel and plausible method for how, at least in part, this regulation occurs. However, the manuscript uses methods that do not measure degradation directly, which is a minor limitation. In addition, the mechanisms by which this regulation is imparted are not addressed in any meaningful way, even in the discussion.

      We are sorry that we did not adequately discuss the extensive previous work that has already addressed regulatory mechanisms. We would like to stress that this manuscript concerns protein turnover and proteome renewal, of which degradation is obviously an important part but not the sole focus.

      To communicate this more clearly, we have amended the title to:

      "Circadian regulation of macromolecular complex turnover and proteome renewal"

      ... which we previously explicitly predicted in the discussion of previous papers (Feeney et al., Nature, 2016; O'Neill et al., Nat Comms, 2020; Wong et al., EMBO J, 2022) and our recent review (Stangherlin et al., Curr Opin Syst Biol, 2021).

      With respect to measurement of degradation - Physiologically, cellular rates of proteasomal degradation are so intimately coupled with protein synthesis that, over circadian timescales, the former cannot meaningfully be studied in isolation. It is possible that the reviewer is alluding to historical methods that measure change over time in the presence of translational or proteasomal inhibitors, but these have long been known to introduce artifacts - because translational inhibition rapidly leads to reduced proteasome activity, whereas proteasomal inhibition rapidly reduces protein synthesis rates through the integrated stress response. We would be interested to hear of any more direct method for measuring protein degradation proteome-wide than the pulsed SILAC method we developed, as we are not aware of any. Even proteasomal proximity labelling coupled with MG132 treatment, recently developed by the Ori lab, does not directly measure degradation (bioarxiv https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.08.09.503299v1). By definition, degradation can only be measured through the disappearance of something that was previously present, usually by comparing its rate of production with the change in steady state concentration (if any), which we have done using multiple methods.

      With respect to regulation of degradation - We speculated on the mechanisms regulating rhythms in protein turnover in our several previous papers (Feeney et al., Nature, 2016; O'Neill et al., Nat Comms, 2020; Wong et al., EMBO J, 2021; Stangherlin et al, Nat Comms, 2021), whereas outside the circadian field these mechanisms have been addressed extensively. This was also discussed in detail in our recent review on the topic (see Stangherlin et al., COISB, 2021). In this review, we lay out the evidence for a model whereby most aspects of circadian cellular physiology might be explained by daily rhythms in the activity of mammalian target-of-rapamycin complexes (mTORC). This model makes multiple predictions and informs the central hypothesis which is tested in the current manuscript: that circadian rhythms in complex turnover and proteome renewal should be prevalent over abundance rhythms. An enormous body of work over the last two decades has already clearly established mTORC1 as the master regulator of bulk protein synthesis and degradation, and a substantial number of independent observations have demonstrated circadian regulation of mTORC1 activity in vivo and in cultured cells. The mechanisms that drive cell-autonomous mTORC1 signalling are only partially understood (e.g. Feeney et al., Nature, 2016; Wu et al., Cell Metab, 2019), and we continue to explore this experimentally but they certainly lie well beyond the scope of this investigation.

      Therefore, to address the reviewer's concern about inadequate discussion of mechanism, we have expanded on mTORC in the introduction and discussion, as follows:

      Page 3: "Daily rhythms of PERIOD and mTORC activity facilitate daily rhythms of gene expression and protein synthesis. In particular, mTORC1 is a master regulator of bulk 5'-cap-dependent protein synthesis, degradation and ribosome biogenesis (Valvezan & Manning, 2019) whose activity is circadian-regulated in tissues and in cultured cells (Ramanathan et al, 2018; Feeney et al, 2016a; Stangherlin et al, 2021b; Mauvoisin et al, 2014; Jouffe et al, 2013; Sinturel et al, 2017; Cao, 2018). It is plausible that daily rhythms of mTORC activity underlie many aspects of daily physiology (Crosby et al, 2019; Stangherlin et al, 2021a; Beale et al, 2023b)."

      Page 17: "The mechanistic underpinnings for cell-autonomous circadian regulation of the translation and degradation machineries remain to be fully explored, but are likely to be driven by daily rhythms in the activity of mTORC: a key regulator of protein synthesis and degradation as well as macromolecular crowding and sequestration (Stangherlin et al, 2021b, 2021a; Cao, 2018; Adegoke et al, 2019; Ben-Sahra & Manning, 2017; Delarue et al, 2018). In particular, global protein synthesis rates are greatest when mTORC1 activity is highest, in tissues and cultured cells, whereas pharmacological treatments that inhibit mTORC1 activity reduce daily variation in crowding and protein synthesis rates (Feeney et al, 2016a; Lipton et al, 2015; Stangherlin et al, 2021b). Given our focus on proteomic flux and translation-associated protein quality control, autophagy was not directly within the scope of this study but is also mTORC-regulated and subject to daily regulation (Ma et al, 2011; Ryzhikov et al, 2019). In vivo, daily regulation of mTORC activity arises primarily through growth factor signalling associated with daily feed/fast cycles (Crosby et al, 2019; Byles et al, 2021). The mechanisms facilitating cell-autonomous circadian mTORC activity rhythms are incompletely understood but may include Mg.ATP availability (Feeney et al, 2016a) and its direct regulation by PERIOD2 (Wu et al, 2019). This will be an important area for future work."

      *Reviewer #2 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      Summary: This is a very interesting and well written paper that addresses key questions in the circadian organization of proteostasis. The paper investigates origins of cellular circadian rhythms, invoking a premise early that there is a poor correlation between rhythmic gene expression - regulated by the canonical TTFL - and rhythms of the proteome, which are rather meager. Specifically, they ask how a relatively stable proteome is possible if cells engage in rhythms of cellular protein synthesis? Their hypothesis is that protein degradation must rhythmically compensate for rhythms of synthesis and much of the manuscript is focused on defining the relationship between rhythmic global synthesis and rhythmic degradation. They employ a series of detailed proteomic investigations and biochemical assessments of protein synthesis coupled with various circadian reporters to assess proteosome function. The proteomic experiments reveal a limited number of proteins with oscillations in either synthesis or abundance or both and no discernible pathway organization however, a followup and more refined study that utilized fractionated samples and boosted heavy SILAC identified strikingly, that many proteins in relatively heavy fractions are rhythmic and that these fall into possible complexes including ribosome and chaperonins. Finally, they perform in vivo experiments testing whether the timing of proteotoxic stimuli regulates the degree of the integrated stress response measured as pEif2a. Overall, I think that this is a fascinating paper that addresses and important question but falls short on mechanistically unifying them and completely contextualizing the findings in light of the canonical modes of circadian timekeeping leaving us with an important, but mostly descriptive set of findings. In addition, there are a number of important questions about data interpretation, some issues with data quality that should be addressed outlined below. With revision and further explication, this study will be an excellent addition to the growing field of circadian organization of the cellular proteome. *

      Thank you for reading and appreciating our work

      *Major and minor Comments. Figure 1. Fig 1a. The difference in Pulse and Chase at ZT24 does not appear to reflect the quantified data in 1b. This should be reconciled to make the figure convincing. *

      When working with radioactive cell lysates it is not possible to equalise the level of protein loaded on each gel beforehand as would happen with a western blot, for example. For this reason, the radioactive signal was normalised to the protein level subsequently measured by coomassie staining, as is standard practise for this type of assay, with all 4 replicates being shown in supplementary Fig.1A. An overnight phosphor screen image is presented in the main Fig.1A for illustrative purposes, but we take the point that this might not be immediately obvious. In revised Fig 1A we therefore now also show the relevant coomassie as well as labelling to make clear that the radioactive signal was normalised to protein levels.

      * How was the timing of the chase collection determined? *

      For these proof-of-principle experiments, we empirically determined the minimum duration of pulse and chase necessary to detect a quantifiable signal.

      *Fig 1d-e. What is the evidence that puro labeling results in 'rapid' turnover. *

      Apologies, this has been established for some time. Some additional papers are now cited in this section of the text (Liu et al, PNAS, 2012; Lacsina et al., PLoS One, 2011; Szeto et al., Autophagy, 2006)

      *Fig 1e seems to be missing the data from the treated and untreated conditions? How are the lines produced (e.g. linear versus rhythmic? Are these drawn lines or actual regressions?). *

      Fig 1e depicts the result of the experiment schematically explained in 1d. The only conditions were +Puro or +Puro+BTZ. There was no completely untreated condition, as puromycin incorporation is the basis of the assay (Lacsina et al., PLoS One, 2012; Szeto et al., Autophagy, 2006) and puromycin does not occur naturally in cells. We realise the figure could potentially be confusing without the associated raw data (anti-puromycin blots) - these are shown in supplementary Fig. 2A.

      To explain the method more clearly, the following has been added to the results section where this experiment is described:

      " As determined by anti-puromycin western blots, over two days under constant conditions, puromycin incorporation in the presence of BTZ showed significant circadian variation. In contrast, cells that were treated with puromycin alone showed no such variation, and nor did total cellular protein levels (Fig 1E, Fig S2A).”

      The fit lines are produced by statistical comparison of fits, i.e., our hypothesis (damped cosine fit) vs null hypothesis (no or constant change over time, linear fit, y = mx+c), using sum-of-squares F test. The statistically preferred fit is plotted and p-value displayed on the graph, i.e., the regression line of the preferred fit and parameters are plotted. These details are reported in the figure legends.

      * Why was 30 minutes chosen as labeling time? It seems hard to understand here how protein degradation kinetics can be measured by puromycin labeling if the authors' claim that puromycin labeling potentially changes degradation rates as a function - primary or secondary - of the labeling itself. It seems they are measuring the potential to degrade proteins. *

      Puromycin labelling is a 20 year-old widely-used technique that can be employed in a range of applications. It was first used in a circadian context by Lipton et al (Cell, 2015) whose work we quickly followed (Feeney et al, Nature, 2016). Briefly, puromycin mimics tyrosyl-tRNA to block translation by labelling and releasing elongating polypeptide chains from translating ribosomes. When used at low concentrations (1 ug/mL in this case) puromycin is sparsely and sporadically incorporated into a small minority of elongating polypeptide chains. Those prematurely terminated chains have puromycin at the C-terminus, which can be detected by western blotting. We chose 30 minutes after optimisation experiments, as it was the shortest incubation time where a robust signal could be observed in these cells with this concentration of puromycin. The puromycinylated peptides are preferentially degraded by the ubiquitin-proteasome system because they are efficiently recognised as misfolded/aberrant proteins by chaperones within tens of minutes of being translated. Unless used at much higher concentrations, or over much longer timescales, there is no reason to believe that puromycin affects the degradation machinery itself, but the degradation of puromycinylated peptides depends on the proteasome. Therefore, puromycin+a proteasome inhibitor provides a reliable proxy for translation rate in the preceding 30 minutes, whereas puromycin alone tells us the steady state concentration under normal conditions, i.e., where proteasomes remain active. By subtracting the latter from the former we can infer the level of degradation of puromycinylated peptides that must have occurred in the previous 30 minutes. It is not a perfect technique, but its results agree with other findings in this manuscript: that protein turnover varies more than steady state protein abundance. With respect to the potential to degrade proteins, this is measured in Fig 1C.

      * How do they determine that they are measuring degradation of functionally relevant proteins as opposed to a host of premature truncations? *

      We do not. This is measured by stable isotope labelling in Figures 2-4. Figure 1 provides the rationale for what follows in subsequent figures, i.e., proof-principle experiments suggesting that turnover is not constant over the circadian cycle. No single experiment in Figure 1 is expected to convince the reader that of circadian turnover. Rather, several independent methods suggest that bulk protein synthesis and degradation (turnover) are not constant over time, and deviate from the null hypothesis with variation that appears to change over the 24h circadian cycle.

      * Fig 1e bottom - again is this a true regression line? *

      It is not a regression line, otherwise a p-value of fit would be shown. Fig1e bottom shows the bioluminescence measured at each timepoint from parallel control cultures (average of triplicates, error bars shown as dotted lines). Due to very high temporal resolution (every 30 min) and robustness of the cell line, it appears as a virtually perfect damped (co)sine wave. We apologise that this was not explained more clearly in the figure legend, now amended as follows:

      "Parallel PER2::LUC bioluminescence recording from replicate cell cultures (mean +/- SEM, every 30 min) is shown below, acting as phase marker."

      *Perhaps two time points should be examined here - similar to the pulse chase performed with 35S labeling? *

      We are sorry we were not fully clear with our method here. The puromycin (+/- BTZ) labelling was performed over two days every 4h (so 12 timepoints in total), which can be inferred from the data points in the top two graphs in Fig. 1E, and x-axis - but is now also clearly stated in the figure legend. The bottom right graph was a continuous bioluminescence recording, integrated every 30 min from the set of parallel culture dishes. The bioluminescence data serves as a circadian phase marker, so that we can infer at which biological times synthesis and inferred turnover was higher vs lower.

      We’ve adjusted the text to explain our method more clearly:

      “Acute (30 min) puromycin treatment of cells in culture, with or without proteasomal inhibition (by bortezomib, BTZ), allowed us to measure both total nascent polypeptide production (+BTZ) and the amount of nascent polypeptides remaining when the UPS remained active (-BTZ). This allowed inference of the level of UPS-mediated degradation of puromycylated peptides within each time window, as a proxy for nascent protein turnover (Fig. 1D).”

      * Fig 1f. It appears that Puro labeling results in a rhythm between ZT1 and ZT13 but no statistic is provided and appears that the 'ns' is the results of variance in the data as opposed to difference in means? - would this not contradict the cellular result? What accounts for the rhythm reversal in the presence/absence of BTZ. *

      To be clear, we measured the level of puromycin incorporation in mouse liver in vivo following a similar method employed by Lipton et al, Cell, 2015 (Figure 2). The prediction was that, exactly as in cells (Fig 1E), treatment with a proteasome inhibitor would lead to a much greater increase in puromycinylated peptides at ZT13 than ZT1, because this is when protein synthesis is known to be higher and thus (we predict) protein degradation should also be higher. The experiment was not designed or powered to detect a time effect, it was designed to detect an interaction between time-of-puromycin treatment and BTZ, with the specific prediction being that BTZ would have a greater effect during the active phase. This is what we observed.

      * While the authors have previously demonstrated an increase in rhythmicity of the proteome in Cry1/Cry2 double knockout cells, it would have been welcome here to test a global loss of circadian transcription in the degradation assay. One might expect that these rhythms would also be even higher. What I am really asking is: what is the mechanism for rhythmic degradation and is it dependent on the canonical clock? *

      To address the reviewer's curiosity, we used the proteasome-Glo assay (also used in Fig 1C) to assess whether there was an interaction between genotype (WT vs CKO) and time at opposite phases of the circadian cycle over 2 days. We found a significant interaction by two-way ANOVA, indicating that components of the 'canonical clock' regulate the temporal organisation of proteasomal activity (see revised Figure S1). Circadian regulation of mammalian cellular functions, such as protein turnover, is a complex and dynamic process, whereas gene deletion affects the steady state and may be epistatic to phenotype rather than revealing gene function. We are therefore reluctant to speculate what this result means in the present manuscript, which is focused entirely on testing the hypothesis that global protein turnover and complex biogenesis have cell-intrinsic circadian rhythms in non-stressed, wild type cells.

      To communicate this, the text has been revised as follows:

      "Moreover, we detected a significant interaction between genotype and biological time when comparing trypsin-lik proteasome activity between wild type and Cryptochrome1/2-deficient cells, that lack canonical circadian transcriptional feedback repression (Fig S1B-E). "

      * **Fig 2. How was the 'fixed window' timeframe determined? *

      A trial experiment was performed with labelling windows of various length, and 6h was determined to be the shortest window where enough heavy label incorporation was detected to be able to assess circadian changes. This was the case with our first methodology, which was subsequently improved (Figure 3), and therefore labelling window reduced to 1.5h.

      * *Fig 3h. While admittedly difficult, the native PAGE is not of great quality and kind of unconvincing. Also not really sure why the AHA labeling is used here an nowhere else in the paper.

      AHA is a methionine analogue that is sparsely incorporated into polypeptide chains with minimal effect on protein function/structure (Dietrich et al., PNAS, 2006). Unlike puromycin, therefore, AHA does not lead to chain termination or protein misfolding/degradation (Dermit et al., Mol Biosyst, 2017). In Figure 1, the aim was to validate previous reports of rhythmic protein synthesis assess whether there was any evidence for rhythmic turnover. To this end, we employed two independent methods (35S-labelling and puromycin-incorporation). We did not want to rely on AHA for measuring turnover: although it has been validated and used for this purpose in some studies (McShane et al., Cell, 2016), AHA is not fully equivalent to methionine, and cellular aminoacyl-tRNA synthetases have much higher affinity to methionine than they do to AHA (Ma and Yates, Expert Rev Proteomics, 2018). It is thus impossible to perform AHA labelling without methionine-free medium, and in turn methionine starvation and media changes are known to have an effect on cell signalling and cell metabolism, which would be particularly pronounced in circadian context (over days rather than over hours).

      By contrast, in Fig 3H, we use AHA with native PAGE to specifically validate one inference from the mass spectrometry analyses: circadian production of high molecular weight protein complexes. This would not be possible with puromycin because prematurely terminated polypeptide chains are not able to assemble into native complexes unless chain termination happens to occur at the extreme C-terminus and the C-terminus does not partake in any intermolecular interactions within the assembled complex.

      The raw data (full gels, all replicates) are presented in Figure S2e, which of course was used for quantification. We have now picked a different example for the main figure, which hopefully allows for clearer representation.

      The text in the results section describing the AHA experiment is now amended as follows:

      " To validate these observations by an orthogonal method, we pulse-labelled cells with methionine analogue L-azidohomoalanine (Dieterich et al, 2006). AHA is an exogenous substrate, that cells have lower affinity to than methionine, and it could potentially impact on stability of the labelled proteins (Ma & Yates, 2018) – therefore, we only used AHA to assess nascent complex synthesis, rather than turnover. We analysed the incorporation of the newly synthesised, AHA labelled proteins into highest molecular weight protein species detected under native-PAGE conditions (Fig 3H, S3F). We observed a high amplitude daily rhythm of AHA labelling, indicating the rhythmic translation and assembly of nascent protein complexes. Taken together, these results show that daily rhythms in synthesis and degradation may be particularly pertinent for subunits of macromolecular protein complexes"

      Fig 4. I was a little disappointed here that the authors did not directly assess macromolecular assembly of at least one of their "hits" and demonstrate functional relevance and most of the analysis is maintained at a very superficial, systemic level. STRING assemblies are not terribly helpful without clear k-means clustering or some other clearly visualizable metric for stratifying and organizing the putative PPI data - this figure (S3) could be markedly improved.

      We agree that validation is important. The ribosome is by far the most abundant macromolecular complex in the cell, and was one of the major complexes to show clear evidence for circadian regulation of turnover, but not abundance, by our pSILAC proteomics. To validate this result, we took advantage of two important observations: (1) that all fully assembled ribosomes incorporate ribosomal RNA (rRNA) which can readily be separated from other cellular RNA by density gradient centrifugation; (2) pulse-labelling with heavy uridine-15N2 allows nascent RNA to be distinguished from pre-existing RNA. Thus, combining stable isotope labelling with ribosome purification, we can distinguish nascently assembled ribosomes from total when the RNA is extracted, digested with RNAse, and the % heavy/total UMP quantified by mass spectrometry. These data are presented in new figure 5, and are consistent with findings in Figures 3/4 that circadian regulation of ribosome turnover is prevalent over abundance, and that the phase of highest ribosome turnover coincides with the phases of high translation and turnover overall. We hope by addressing the reviewer's question by an entirely orthogonal method, they can share more confidence in our conclusions.

      The statistical metric for STRING, specifically the p-value for enrichment in physical protein-protein interactions, is presented in the main Fig. 3G. It is now also reported in the legend for new Figure S4 itself.

      * Is it possible that some macromolecular complexes have rhythms because their constituent proteins have differential half-lives when in one complex compared with another in circadian time? This possibility was not discussed. *

      To our knowledge, there is no evidence that any major macromolecular complex in the cell has a functionally significant rhythm in abundance on a cell-autonomous basis. The reviewer’s suggestion is an intriguing possibility, but we can think of no way that it could be measured, even in principle. The simplest interpretation of our data from the independent techniques we employ (pSILAC with fractionation, native PAGE + AHA incorporation) is a rhythm in synthesis.

      *Fig. 5. Why is the first histogram in 3c not at unity? *

      This measures the average fold-induction in aggregation when cells are treated with MG132 for 4h at the indicated timepoints. Unity would indicate no induction at all, so the presented quantifications show that MG132 always elicited an increase in aggregation, with an effect size that varied with circadian phase.

      * Do ZT24 and ZT48 differ, similarly do ZT36 and ZT60?*

      No, neither difference is statistically significant (adjusted p-values of p=0.9 and p=0.07, respectively). This is now specified in the figure legend. Tendency to aggregate is also likely to change as a function of time in culture, which is why we think there is a slight increase overall in the second day of the experiment.

      * Fig S4f is not of good quality with missing eIF2a total and therefore no loading controls. *

      Thank you for prompting us to double-check this. We found that the levels of eIF2a were quite variable between the animals, and therefore we performed this experiment with 6 biological replicates. We have double-checked the quantification, and have now excluded 3 unreliable samples (the ones with undetectable levels of total eIF2a – ZT18 +BTZ replicate 1 & ZT18 -BTZ replicate 2, as well as ZT6 +BTZ replicate 4, where a smear does not allow for a reliable quantification of phospho-eIF2a) instead of 2 that were excluded originally. This still leaves at least 5 biological replicates in each group. In fact, the difference between BTZ and control in ZT6 is now deemed to be even more significant, going down to adjusted p=0.0007.

      *S4e? true regression lines? *

      The same method was used as in Figure 1. The fit lines are produced by statistical comparison of fits, i.e. our hypothesis (damped cosine fit) vs null hypothesis (no change over time, linear fit), using sum-of-squares F test. The statistically preferred fit is plotted and p-value displayed on the graph. These details are reported in the figure legends and methods section.

      While I thought these experiments were effective, they did not tie back well to the rest of the paper. What are the consequences of a temporally sensitive ISR? Which pathways does it effect in circadian time? Here, the main holes in this study are somewhat exposed; namely, a lack of mechanistic depth in explaining the very fascinating, albeit mostly descriptive, findings. The implicit assumption made here is that aggregation is 'bad' but could the opposite be just as true? Taking these considerations in account would further strengthen the discussion.

      The purpose of (former) Fig 5 was entirely to test the functional consequences and potential translational relevance of a daily rhythm in protein turnover. The mechanisms upstream and downstream of the ISR, and link with many diseases, are already quite well understood but we apologise that we did not draw more heavily on the prior literature to provide sufficient context for this experiment. Protein aggregation has long been associated with proteotoxic stress, and we do not assume it is good or bad, we simply use it as an additional validation of a temporally sensitive ISR. To correct this omission we have added the following to the results section before these experiments are introduced:

      "Disruption of proteostasis and sensitivity to proteotoxic stress are strongly linked with a wide range of diseases (Wolff et al, 2014; Harper & Bennett, 2016; Labbadia & Morimoto, 2015; Hipp et al, 2019). Evidently, global protein translation, degradation and complex assembly are crucial processes for cellular proteostasis in general, so cyclic variation in these processes would be expected to have (patho)physiological consequences....

      ...Informed by our observations, we predicted that circadian rhythms of global protein turnover would have functional consequences for maintenance of proteostasis. Specifically, we expected that cells would be differentially sensitive to perturbation of proteostasis induced by proteasomal inhibition using small molecules such as MG132 and BTZ, depending on time-of-day."

      Reviewer #2 (Significance (Required)):

      This is a fascinating paper that addresses key questions in the circadian organization of the proteome. The paper's main findings are that rhythms of protein synthesis and degradation are temporally coordinated to maintain overall stability of the proteome in mouse fibroblasts. Furthermore, the authors present evidence that this temporal organization may be important for assembly of macromolecular complexes. While very interesting, the main limitations are a lack of biochemical and mechanistic explanation and evidence that verifies these, mostly descriptive, findings.

      The fundamental biochemical mechanisms of protein synthesis, degradation, protein quality control and stress response have been studied for decades and are increasingly well understood, at least in cultured cancer cells. What is not understood is the extent to which all of these essential cellular systems are subject to physiological variation over the circadian cycle in quiescent cells. This is the fundamental knowledge gap our study attempts to fill by testing the discrete hypotheses that (1) circadian regulation of macromolecular complex turnover is more prevalent than abundance and that (2) proteome renewal is more prevalent than compositional variation. We suggest that establishing these essential principles of circadian cellular physiology is an essential prerequisite for performing the type perturbational experiments we presume the reviewer would prefer. We would like to reassure the reviewer that such studies have been and are being performed, but we are concerned that the inclusion of a very extensive additional body of work within this manuscript would detract from the clear communication of our major finding that complex turnover and proteome renewal has a cell-autonomous basis.

      *There are some relatively minor statistical and data quality issues that are probably addressable relatively quickly.

      **Upon revision the study would be a welcome addition to investigators interested in proteostasis, circadian biology, cell biology and proteomics.

      **I am a physician-scientist with expertise in circadian rhythms, cell biology, protein synthesis, and biochemistry.

      **Reviewer #3 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      **Seinkmane et al investigate circadian regulation of protein synthesis and degradation in cultured cells and in mice. Their main new finding is that protein synthesis and degradation are in many cases rhythmic but coordinated such that the proteome is rhythmically renewed without an apparent rhythm in total protein abundance. Particularly the pool of large protein complexes is rhythmically renewed in this fashion.

      Using pulsed SILAC in combination with mass spectrometry, the authors are able to distinguish between total and newly synthesized protein levels in mouse lung fibroblasts. Analysis of these data shows that the synthesis of a large number of proteins is rhythmic although the total amount is constant, or that proteins are synthesized at a constant rate but the total amount is rhythmic, suggesting that degradation is rhythmic. By analyzing macromolecular complexes, defined as a high-speed pellet, they also present evidence that the rhythmic components of large complexes oscillate in the same phase and have a similar protein turnover rate. The authors conclude that complexes assemble rhythmically. **The authors also present evidence that the activity of the proteasome oscillates in a circadian manner. Based on this observation, they show (in fibroblasts and in mice) that the response to proteotoxic stress (monitored by eIF2alpha phosphorylation levels, protein aggregation, and apoptosis) is higher at circadian times of high proteasome activity.

      **I am an expert in the circadian field, and the hypothesis and concept behind the work presented here are potentially very interesting, and the experimental design is in principle suitable to answer these questions. However, after reading the paper several times, I cannot find the set of experiments that would convincingly support the authors' conclusions.

      **Major questions/points:

      *The major limitation of the manuscript is that the conclusions rely heavily on statistical analysis and massive processing of data from a bewilderingly large number of very different experiments. In looking at the figures, I have often wondered if the presence or absence of a rhythm is real or a product of the heavily processed data. The fact that a cosine wave fits through data points better than a straight line does not necessarily mean that a circadian rhythm is present.

      We agree that comparison of fits alone does not provide sufficiently reliable evidence. However, the fact that many independent methods (cosinor, RAIN, ANOVA) yield similar overall findings lends more confidence to our findings. We would also argue that the large number of different experiments is a positive aspect of the paper and lends weight to the general conclusions. We instead ask the reviewer to consider an alternative question - we and many other labs have found no evidence for any change in total cellular protein content, and yet there is extensive evidence from independent labs for a 'translational rush hour' whilst (excepting some low abundance transcription factors) very few cellular proteins change by more than 10% over the circadian cycle (see Stangherlin et al, COISB, 2022 for extended discussion of this). We hypothesised a parsimonious explanation for this clear contradiction, and designed experiments whose data were analysed by widely used methods that yielded results that were consistent with prediction. Perhaps the reviewer will at least concede that, if the presented findings do not refute the hypothesis, it should not be rejected until a superior one is proposed?

      * I think that in particular, the SILAC experiment(s) should be repeated and also performed with an arrhythmic control (such as CRY1/2 KO). *

      Whilst we agree that CRY1/2 KO cells show no circadian regulation of transcription and much more variable rhythms in PER2::LUC activity than wild type controls (Putker et al., EMBO J, 2021), in our hands circadian rhythms in proteome composition and protein phosphorylation in CRY1/2 KO are at least as prevalent as in wild type cells (see Wong et al., EMBO J, 2022). Indeed, when we performed a proteasome activity assay in CRY1/2 KO fibroblasts, we observed there was an apparent circadian variation, similar to WT but with a different phase. These data are now presented in revised Figure S1. Similarly, Lipton et al (Cell, 2015) showed circadian translational rhythms in cultured Bmal1 KO cells (see final figure), therefore it is not clear what would constitute an appropriate 'arrhythmic' control.

      In this study, for proteomics experiments, we used a combination of SILAC and TMT, as each technique alone would not be sufficient to answer our specific questions. These two techniques are very resource-intensive on their own, and even more so in combination. We therefore had to prioritise and for the second SILAC-TMT experiment decided to focus on cellular fractionation and questions pertaining macromolecular complexes, which were directly relevant to our hypothesis. While it would undoubtedly also be interesting to study how canonical clock genes, such as Cry1/2, impact turnover on a proteome-wide scale, the focus of our study is physiological regulation of proteome composition, rather than the function of Cryptochrome genes which we already explored in previous work (Putker et al., EMBO J, 2021; Wong et al., EMBO J, 2022).

      Comparability between the whole cell and MMC SILAC experiments is also limited due to the different experimental conditions (6h vs. 1.5h pulse, +booster).

      We do not make any direct comparisons, other than to report that broadly comparable numbers of proteins were detected. Implicitly this means there must be greater coverage of protein complexes in the second pSILAC experiment, which our data bears out. If we were not to report the first experiment, the reader would not understand why we refined the method used in the second. In reporting the results of the 6h pulse, we make the limitations of this experiment very clear i.e. biased towards highly abundant, highly turnover proteins, irrespective of cellular compartment. We should add that even in this experiment there was a clear trend towards rhythmic turnover of ribosomal proteins, but this did not quite achieve significance (p = 0.07) and so we did not want to make claims beyond the data.

      *The essential and new message of the paper is that (at least some) macromolecular complexes undergo circadian renewal (degradation and synthesis). Rather than just analysing an operationally defined pellet fraction by mass spectrometry, this could be shown in more detail and directly for one or two specific macromolecular complexes. Ribosomes, for example, seem particularly suitable, because there would also be the very simple approach of measuring the synthesis of ribosomal RNA by pulse labelling. To me, such an analysis would be perfectly sufficient as a proof of principle. I would then omit aspects such as rhythmic stress response, since many additional experiments are needed to demonstrate this convincingly. *

      Thank you for the excellent suggestion, we agree that validation is important. The ribosome is by far the most abundant macromolecular complex in the cell and was one of the major complexes to show clear evidence for circadian regulation of turnover, but not abundance, by our pSILAC proteomics. To validate this result, we took advantage of two important observations: (1) that all fully assembled ribosomes incorporate ribosomal RNA (rRNA) which can readily be separated from other cellular RNA by density gradient centrifugation; (2) pulse-labelling with heavy uridine-15N2 allows nascent RNA to be distinguished from pre-existing RNA. Thus, combining stable isotope labelling with ribosome purification, we can distinguish nascently assembled ribosomes from total ribosomes when the RNA is extracted, digested with RNAse, and the ratio of light to heavy UMP quantified by mass spectrometry. These data are presented in new figure 5, and are consistent with findings in Figures 3/4 that circadian regulation of ribosome turnover is prevalent over abundance, and that the phase of highest ribosome turnover coincides with the phases of high translation and turnover overall. We hope by addressing the reviewer's question by an entirely orthogonal method, he/she can share more confidence in our conclusions.

      The final figure is included because it tests predictions that were informed by the preceding experiments. It is not intended to be comprehensive exploration of how the integrated stress response changes with the circadian cycle, nor have we claimed this.

      * Specific points: The reader is strongly influenced by the cosine wave or straight lines in the graphs (e.g. 1c, e, 3h, 5b, etc) produced by the analysis of rhythmicity, which basically only gives a yes or no answer. But it is not really that simple. If the algorithm detects a rhythm what is its period? Is it the same as the period of the luciferase reporter? If the period lengths correlate, do the phases as well (e.g. see differences in phases 1c and e)? These questions are not addressed. *

      The temporal resolution of the time course data is much lower than the luciferase reporter and so the error of the fit is greater (usually 1-2h). For the cosine wave curve fit and the associated extra sum-of-squares F test, the period of the oscillation was fixed at either 24h or 25h, as determined from a parallel PER2::LUC control recording. This is now explicitly stated in the methods section

      In terms of phase, the general trend across all experiments is that bulk protein turnover, synthesis and degradation is higher during the 6-8h following the peak of PER2::LUC than at any other point in the circadian cycle. This is also consistent with our previous findings in mouse and human cells (Feeney et al, Nature, 2016; Stangherlin et al., Nat Comms, 2021) as well as findings from many different labs in vivo (e.g. Janich et al., Genome Res, 2016; Atger et al., 2015, PNAS; Sinturel et al., 2017, Cell). We are cautious about trying to be any more specific than this because each assay is measuring something different, and (as can be seen across the figures) there is also some modest variation in the phase of PER2::LUC between experiments, with respect the prior entraining temperature cycle (this will be reported in our forthcoming publication, Rzechorzek et al, in prep). To address the reviewer's point therefore, we have added the following to the discussion:

      "Across all experiments in this study, we find that protein synthesis, degradation and turnover is highest during the 6-8h that follow maximal production of the clock protein PER2. This is coincident with increased glycolytic flux and respiration (Putker et al, 2018), increased macromolecular crowding in the cytoplasm, decreased intracellular K+ concentration and increased mTORC activity (Feeney et al, 2016a; Stangherlin et al, 2021b; Wong et al, 2022)."

      * **The algorithm in Fig 1c predicts a rhythm for the chymotrypsin-like and the trypsin-like but not for the caspase-like activity. The peptide assay measures core proteasome activity independent of ubiquitylation and should therefore be dependent on proteasome concentration in the sample. How can then only two of the three proteasomal activities be rhythmic? Please elaborate and repeat with arrhythmic cells (e.g. CRY1/2 KO). The period length does not seem to correlate with the one of the reporter. Why is that? *

      The arrhythmic controls idea is partially addressed in the response above. We did perform a proteasome activity assay in CRY1/2 KO fibroblasts, and observed daily variation similar to WT, albeit with a different apparent phase. These data are now shown in Figure S1, and referred to in the main text as follows:

      "Moreover, we detected a significant interaction between genotype and biological time when comparing trypsin-like proteasome activity between wild type and Cryptochrome1/2-deficient cells, that lack canonical circadian transcriptional feedback repression (Fig S1B-E)".

      Besides this study, our two previous proteomic investigations of the fibroblast circadian proteome detected no biologically significant or consistent rhythm in proteasome subunit abundance (Wong et al., EMBO J, 2021; Hoyle et al., Science Translational Medicine, 2017). Moreover, proteasomes are long-lived stable complexes whose activity is determined by a combination of substrate-level, allosteric and post-translational regulatory mechanisms that includes their reversible sequestration into storage granules (Albert et al., PNAS, 2020; , Fu et al., PNAS, 2021; Yasuda et al., Nature, 2020). It is therefore very likely that the observed rhythm in trypsin- and chymotrypsin-like activity occurs post-translationally. Proteasome subunit composition is also known to change, which might be another reason for differences between the protease activities (Marshall and Vierstra, Front Mol Biosci, 2019; Zheng et al., J Neurochem, 2012).

      To communicate this succinctly, we have revised the relevant text as follows:

      Page 7: "Moreover, we detected a significant interaction between genotype and biological time when comparing trypsin-like proteasome activity between wild type and Cryptochrome1/2-deficient cells, that lack canonical circadian transcriptional feedback repression (Fig S1B, (Wong et al, 2022)). Previous proteomics studies under similar conditions have revealed minimal circadian variation in proteasome subunit abundance (Wong et al, 2022), suggesting that proteasome activity rhythmicity, and therefore rhythms in UPS-mediated protein degradation, are regulated post-translationally (Marshall & Vierstra, 2019; Hansen et al, 2021)."

      Regarding period length, we apologise for an oversight in Fig 1c: unlike all other experiments presented here, these fits were originally done with a flexible period length (between 20h and 36h). This has now been re-fitted in a similar manner to the other experiments (fixed period of 24h, same as the parallel PER2::LUC controls), and the updated data are presented. This has not influenced the results of the statistical tests (only changed the p-values slightly, but the significance levels remain the same).

      Fig. 1a,b suggest that there is a rhythm in global protein synthesis with a significant peak at 40h. Yet, Fig. 1e suggests otherwise. How can that be? Also, the degradation graph (lower panel 1c) has to be plotted with the ratios calculated from the data points and not the heavily processed fitted graphs. This can be very misleading.

      Fig1a,b was performed under quite different conditions to 1e. As described in the methods section, 35S-labelling experiments require a medium change during both pulse and chase (to replace normal Met with radioactive Met, and vice versa). To avoid growth factor/mTORC1-mediated stimulation of protein synthesis & turnover, these acute media changes must occur in the absence of serum; otherwise media changes would introduce artifacts. In contrast, puromycin labelling (Fig 1e) is performed without any media changes (as puromycin can be added directly to culture cell media), and therefore was performed in normal culture conditions of 10% serum. Thus, due to its well-established effect of growth factor/mTORC1 signalling on bulk translation rate, it is very likely that differences in the phase of translational rhythms between Fig1a,b and 1e are attributable to differing serum concentrations – this phenomenon of serum-dependency of phase is also described in Beale et al, 2023, bioRxiv https://doi.org/10.1101/2023.06.22.546020. The only important point, is that neither of these proof-of-principle experiments support the null hypothesis: that translation rate and turnover remains constant over the circadian cycle. Thus, the hypothesis being tested in Figure 1 is not rejected, and provides the rationale for the subsequent proteome-wide analyses.

      With respect to 1E, given the variance of measurement, the curve fits to Puro and Puro+BTZ already serve to test whether there is any significant ~24h component, a ratio of the respective data points would simply compound the error of measurement. The degradation plot is provided purely for illustrative purposes to help the reader i.e. if these fits were true, what would be expected? We have revised the figure to more clearly communicate that the degradation plot is presented purely as a visual aid, labelled “inferred”, and now show ratio plots in revised Figure 1.

      * **It also strikes me as odd that the amplitude of degradation increases (peak at 28h lower than at 30h) while the amplitude of the core clock oscillation dampens over time (peak at 54h higher than at 53h due to desynchronisation. Only two data values around 54h are responsible for the detected rhythm (2nd peak). Furthermore, phase and period do not agree with the rhythm of proteolytic activities shown in 1c. How can this be explained? *

      Due to the nature of the experiment, the degradation rate inferred from Figure 1B & 1E does not reflect proteasome activity exclusively. Rather it reflects the combined sum of processes that remove nascently produced proteins from the cell's digitonin-soluble fraction, which includes proteasomal degradation, but also autophagy, protein secretion and sequestration into other compartments. Therefore, the peak degradation in Fig 1B & E would not necessarily be expected to coincide with the peak of proteasome activity in Fig 1C. Again, these experiments in Figure 1 simply serve to test the hypothesis (change over circadian cycle) vs the null hypothesis (no change over the circadian cycle).

      To the question of amplitude increase, we speculate that this is due to metabolic changes in cultures over the course of three days – as serum and nutrients from the last medium change at T0 are depleted, cells need to increase degradation to promote turnover and recycling. As we suggest that the rhythms in turnover help cellular bioenergetic efficiency, it is quite plausible that amplitude increases as nutrient-concentrations fall. We are in process of further investigation into how exactly these rhythms vary with nutrient and serum status.i

      * Regarding the MS data shown in Figure 2, is it possible to show a positive / quality control? Best would be MS data of Luciferase (or PER2,3, RevErb/alpha, DBP) to show oscillation of protein levels with the same phase and period as the reporter. *

      Unfortunately, none of these low abundance transcription factors were detected in our MS runs. This is not surprising, given that their copy numbers are estimated at * In Fig. 2c examples of the 4 groups of proteins presented in 2e should be shown (both synthesis and total abundance arrhythmic, either one rhythmic or both rhythmic) and not just what appears to be random examples of rhythmic and arrhythmic proteins. *

      As also requested by another reviewer, we have revised the figure to include examples of each of the rhythmicity categories. No specific meaning is inferred from the chosen protein identities.

      Is it possible at all to distinguish between synthesis/turnover and assembly/disassembly of macromolecular complexes in the MMC SILAC experiment? If so, how?

      We followed the established protocol originally developed in our collaborator Kathryn Lilley's lab, where it has previously been shown that most proteins in the MMC fraction are in macromolecular assemblies (Geladaki et al, Nat Commun, 2019). Proteins that are rhythmically abundant in this fraction, but without an accompanying synthesis rhythm (e.g. Beta-actin, see Hoyle et al., Sci Trans Medicine, 2017) can be reliably assumed to arise solely from rhythmic assembly/disassembly i.e. they are captured in this fraction when assembled, but lost, and therefore not detected, in this fraction when disassembled. However, in the case of rhythmic synthesis and abundance, it is not possible with this technique to directly infer that rhythmic synthesis of a given protein is responsible for its rhythmic assembly in a complex, though they do correlate.

      Therefore, our new figure 5 (with thanks again for this suggestion) approaches this by an orthogonal method, relying on the important observations that a) ribosomes incorporate ribosomal RNA (rRNA) b) this can be readily separated from most other cellular RNA by density gradient centrifugation and c) pulse-labelling with heavy uridine-15N2 allows nascent RNA to be distinguished from pre-existing RNA. Using this technique, we validate a rhythm in production and assembly of mature ribosomes, with its peak consistent with the highest turnover time as measured in Figs 1 and 3, and MMC fraction proteomics (Supplemental table 3), at the descending phase of PER2::LUC.

      * **Looking at Fig. 4b,c, what is the fraction of rhythmic proteins from the MMC experiment that also oscillate in either synthesis, total abundance or both in the whole cell? Is there a general correlation at all? Please show. *

      There were no correlations greater than would be expected by chance (the sets of proteins rhythmic in either synthesis or degradation did not overlap significantly between whole-cell and MMC fractions, as determined by an odds ratio test).

      To communicate this we have added the following text:

      "It is also worth noting that although there were small sets of proteins that were rhythmic in both whole-cell (Figure 2) and MMC fractions (Figure 3), in both synthesis and total abundance, none of these four overlaps were higher than would have been expected by chance."

      * **Why is the phase of the oscillating proteins different in the two experiments (compare Figs. 2f,g and 4a) and does either of them match with the phase of the PER2::LUC reporter, which should be the peak synthesis phase of the clock? *

      This was a labelling error on our part, our apologies and thanks for drawing it to our attention. We had attempted to harmonise all these phase values so that they were mutually comparable between the two mass spec experiments, but omitted to update all the figures. They have now all been updated to be inter-consistent. From our experiments, the peak of PER2::LUC consistently precedes the timing of maximum bulk translation. This phase difference is, at least in part, attributable to the inactivation kinetics of firefly luciferase (see Feeney et al., J Biol Rhythms, 2016), i.e., under conditions of saturating luciferin substrate, PER2 protein abundance peaks several hours later than PER2::LUC activity when measured in longitudinal live cell assays.

      * Regarding the sensitivity to MG132 in Fig. 5b it doesn't make sense that, while eIF2alpha phosphorylation is arrhythmic in untreated cells and the levels of eIF2alpha phosphorylation are (apparently) not exhibiting a rhythmic change by administration of MG132 at different circadian timepoints, the ratio of P-eIF2alpha with and without MG132 suddenly is. Please show in Fig. S4b quantifications of the individual experiments with and without MG132. What is presented in 5b is after all the ratio of ratios of quantifications of Western blots, each of which individually does not display any appreciable rhythm. For me this is two much of processing of data. In my opinion, the MG132 4h acute treatment must show a detectable rhythm.*

      We apologise for being unclear in this panel and description. Our hypothesis concerned the fold-induction of the p-eIF2alpha:eIF2alpha ratio changing as a function of MG132 and time. Our reasoning being that the ratio may be more biologically-relevant as it is the relative change that cells sense and respond to, and not the absolute abundance of p-eIF2alpha. We applied a quantitative, two-channel fluorescent antibody technique to enable detection and quantification of p-eIF2alpha and eIF2alpha from each replicate at each time point from the same band of the same blot. We agree that no p-eIF2alpha rhythm is evident from a cursory inspection of any of the blots. This is due to the innate variance between dishes in extracted protein concentration, as well as the levels of basal eIF2alpha and its phosphorylation, and is the reason that we took great pains to be as quantitative as possible using the two-channel immuno-detection (LICOR). Due to the natural and stochastic variation in eIF2alpha levels and extraction between replicates and over time, it is difficult to get identical eIF2alpha loading to reveal the overlying rhythm in p-eIF2alpha, and furthermore, identical loading would give a misleading impression of the level of temporal variation of eIF2alpha levels. Quantification reveals temporal variation in the MG132 treated samples but not in the untreated controls (Supp Fig 5A) – suggesting that there may be circadian regulation of the cellular response to MG132 challenge, rather than a cell-autonomous p-eIF2alpha rhythm under basal conditions. We quantified fold-induction from MG132 vs untreated to present in Figure 6A. We have presented all the raw data in supplementary figure 5 for readers to validate through their own analysis.

      *Minor:

      In Fig. 1f please show dot blot with error bars as well as the individual experiments in the supplementals. Please check the graph legend (N>=3?) *

      Thank you for pointing out these omissions. The dot blot with error bars is now shown in Fig. 1F, and the full gels are now included as Fig. S2B. The main figure legend for 1f has also had the following added (explaining the N numbers):s

      "Four mice were used per condition, but in some cases one of the four injections were not successful i.e. no puromycin labelling was observed and so no quantification could be performed (full data in Fig. S2B)."

      * Please explain the mechanism of the "booster" used in the second SILAC experiment. *

      The following has been revised in the text:

      " Namely, we added a so-called booster channel: an additional fully heavy-labelled cell sample within a TMT mixture (Klann et al, 2020). When the mixture is analysed by MS, heavy peptides from the booster channel increase the overall signal of all identical heavy peptides at MS1 level; at MS2 and MS3 this results in improved detection of heavy proteins in the other TMT channels of interest, and is particularly advantageous for the proteins with lower turnover that would fall below the MS1 detection limit without the booster."

      *

      **p10 3rd paragraph: S2e not S3e *

      Thank you, this has been fixed.

      p12 last paragraph please add reference to Figs. 5f,g

      Thank you, this has been added.

      *Reviewer #3 (Significance (Required)): *

      xxxxx

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment

      This manuscript represents a cleanly designed experiment for assessing biological motion processing in children (mean age = 9) with and without ADHD. The group differences concerning accuracy in global and local motion processing abilities are solid, but the analyses suggesting dissociable relationships between global and local processing and social skills, age, and IQ need further interrogation. The results are useful in terms of understanding ADHD and the ontogenesis of different components of the processing of biological motion.

      We thank the editors for the positive assessment of our manuscript. We have carefully considered the reviewers’ constructive and helpful comments and revised our manuscript accordingly. To address the question about the dissociable relationships between global and local BM processing, we have provided more evidence and additional analyses in this revised version.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The paper presents a nice study investigating differences in biological motion perception in participants with ADHD in comparison with controls. Motivated by the idea that there is a relationship between biological motion perception and social capabilities, the authors investigated local and global (holistic) biological motion perception, the group, and several additional behavioral variables that are affected in ADHS (IQ, social responsiveness, and attention/impulsivity). As well as local global biological motion perception is reduced in ADHD participants. In addition, the study demonstrates a significant correlation between local biological motion perception skills and the social responsiveness score in the ADHD group, but not the controls. A path analysis in the ADHD data suggests that general performance in biological motion perception is influenced mainly by global biological motion perception performance and attentional and perceptual reasoning skills.

      Strengths:

      It is true that there exists not much work on biological motion perception and ADHD. Therefore, the presented study contributes an interesting new result to the biological motion literature and adds potentially also new behavioral markers for this clinical condition. The design of the study is straightforward and technically sound, and the drawn conclusions are supported by the presented results.

      Thank you for your positive assessment of our work.

      Weaknesses:

      Some of the claims about the relationship between genetic factors and ADHD and the components of biological motion processing have to remain speculative at this point because genetic influences were not explicitly tested in this paper.

      We agree that the relationship between genetic factors and BM processing in ADHD needs more investigation, We have modified our statement in Discussion section as following:

      “Using the classical twin method, Wang et al. found that the distinction between local and global BM processing may stem from the dissociated genetic bases. The former, to a great degree, seems to be acquired phylogenetically20,21,59,60, while the latter is primarily obtained through individual development19.” (lines 421 - 425),

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Tian et al. aimed to assess differences in biological motion (BM) perception between children with and without ADHD, as well as relationships to indices of social functioning and possible predictors of BM perception (including demographics, reasoning ability and inattention). In their study, children with ADHD showed poorer performance relative to typically developing children in three tasks measuring local, global, and general BM perception. The authors further observed that across the whole sample, performance in all three BM tasks was negatively correlated with scores on the social responsiveness scale (SRS), whereas within groups a significant relationship to SRS scores was only observed in the ADHD group and for the local BM task. Local and global BM perception showed a dissociation in that global BM processing was predicted by age, while local BM perception was not. Finally, general (local & global combined) BM processing was predicted by age and global BM processing, while reasoning ability mediated the effect of inattention on BM processing.

      Strengths:

      Overall, the manuscript is presented in a relatively clear fashion and methods and materials are presented with sufficient detail so the study could be reproduced by independent researchers. The study uses an innovative, albeit not novel, paradigm to investigate two independent processes underlying BM perception. The results are novel and have the potential to have wide-reaching impact on multiple fields.

      We appreciate your positive assessment of our work.

      Weaknesses:

      Except for the main analysis, it is unclear what the authors' specific predictions are regarding the three different tasks they employ. The three BM tasks are used to probe different processes underlying BM perception, but it is difficult to gather from the introduction why these three specific tasks were chosen and what predictions the authors have about the performance of the ADHD group in these tasks. Relatedly, the authors do not report whether (and if so, how) they corrected for multiple comparisons in their analyses. As the number of tests one should control for depends on the theoretical predictions (http://daniellakens.blogspot.com/2016/02/why-you-dont-need-to-adjust-you-alpha.html), both are necessary for the reader to assess the statistical validity of the results and any inferences drawn from them. The same is the case for the secondary analyses exploring relationships between the 3 individual BM tasks and social function measured by the social responsivity scale (SRS).

      We appreciate these constructive suggestions. In response, we have included a detailed description in the Introduction section explaining why we employed three different tasks and our predictions about the performance in ADHD:

      “Despite initial indications, a comprehensive investigation into BM perception in ADHD is warranted. We proposed that it is essential to deconstruct BM processing into its multiple components and motion features, since treating them as a single entity may lead to misleading or inconsistent findings31. To address this issue, we employed a carefully designed behavioral paradigm used in our previous study19, making slight adjustments to adapt for children. This paradigm comprises three tasks. Task 1 (BM-local) aimed to assess the ability to process local BM cues. Scrambled BM sequences were displayed and participants could use local BM cues to judge the facing direction of the scrambled walker. Task 2 (BM-global) tested the ability to process the global configuration cues of the BM walker. Local cues were uninformative, and participants used global BM cues to determine the presence of an intact walker. Task 3 (BM-general) tested the ability to process general BM cues (local + global cues). The stimulus sequences consisted of an intact walker and a mask containing similar target local cues, so participants could use general BM cues (local + global cues) to judge the facing direction of the walker.” (lines 116 - 130)

      “In Experiment 1, we examined three specific BM perception abilities in children with ADHD. As mentioned earlier, children with ADHD also show impaired social interaction, which implies atypical social cognition. Therefore, we speculated that children with ADHD performed worse in the three tasks compared to TD children.” (lines 131 - 134)

      Additionally, we have reported the p values corrected for multiple comparisons (false discovery rate, FDR) in the revised manuscript wherever it was necessary to adjust the alpha (lines 310 - 316; Table 2). The pattern of the results remained unchanged.

      In relation to my prior point, the authors could provide more clarity on how the conclusions drawn from the results relate to their predictions. For example, it is unclear what specific conclusions the authors draw based on their findings that ADHD show performance differences in all three BM perception tasks, but only local BM is related to social function within this group. Here, the claim is made that their results support a specific hypothesis, but it is unclear to me what hypothesis they are actually referring to (see line 343 & following). This lack of clarity is aggravated by the fact that throughout the rest of the discussion, in particular when discussing other findings to support their own conclusions, the authors often make no distinction between the two processes of interest. Lastly, some of the authors' conclusions related to their findings on local vs global BM processing are not logically following from the evidence: For instance, the authors conclude that their data supports the idea that social atypicalities are likely to reduce with age in ADHD individuals. However, according to their own account, local BM perception - the only measure that was related to social function in their study - is understood to be age invariant (and was indeed not predicted by age in the present study).

      Thank you for pointing out this issue. We have carefully revised the Discussion section about our findings to clarify these points:

      “Our study contributes several promising findings concerning atypical biological motion perception in ADHD. Specifically, we observe the atypical local and global BM perception in children with ADHD. Notably, a potential dissociation between the processing of local and global BM information is identified. The ability to process local BM cues appears to be linked to the traits of social interaction among children with ADHD. In contrast, global BM processing exhibits an age-related development. Additionally, general BM perception may be affected by factors including attention.” (lines 387 - 393)

      We have provided a detailed discussion on the two processes of interest to clarify their potential differences and the possible reasons behind the difference of the divergent developmental trajectories between local and global BM processing:

      “BM perception is considered a multi-level phenomenon56-58. At least in part, processing information of local BM and global BM appears to involve different genetic and neural mechanisms16,19. Using the classical twin method, Wang et al. found that the distinction between local and global BM processing may stem from the dissociated genetic bases. The former, to a great degree, seems to be acquired phylogenetically20,21,59,60, while the latter is primarily obtained through individual development19. The sensitivity to local rather than global BM cues seems to emerge early in life. Visually inexperienced chicks exhibit a spontaneous preference for the BM stimuli of hen, even when the configuration was scrambled20. The same finding was reported in newborns. On the contrary, the ability to process global BM cues rather than local BM cues may be influenced by attention28,29 and shaped by experience24,56.” (lines 419 - 430)

      “We found that the ability to process global and general BM cues improved significantly with age in both TD and ADHD groups, which imply the processing module for global BM cues tends to be mature with development. In the ADHD group, the improvement in processing general and global BM cues is greater than that in processing local BM cues, while no difference was found in TD group. This may be due to the relatively higher baseline abilities of BM perception in TD children, resulting in a relatively milder improvement. These findings also suggest a dissociation between the development of local and global BM processing. There seems to be an acquisition of ability to process global BM cues, akin to the potential age-related improvements observed in certain aspects of social cognition deficits among individuals with ADHD5, whereas local BM may be considered an intrinsic trait19.” (lines 438 -449)

      In addition, we have rephased some inaccurate statements in revised manuscript. Another part of social dysfunction might be stable and due to the atypical local BM perception in ADHD individuals, although some studies found a part of social dysfunction would reduce with age in ADHD individuals. One reason is that some factors related to social dysfunction would improve with age, like the symptom of hyperactivity.

      Results reported are incomplete, making it hard for the reader to comprehensively interpret the findings and assess whether the conclusions drawn are valid. Whenever the authors report negative results (p-values > 0.05), the relevant statistics are not reported, and the data not plotted. In addition, summary statistics (group means) are missing for the main analysis.

      Thanks for your comments. We have provided the complete statistical results in the revised manuscript (lines 309 - 316) and supplementary material, which encompass relevant statistics and plots of negative results (Figure 4, Figure S2 and S3), in accordance with our research questions. And we have also included summary statistics in the Results section (lines 287 - 293).

      Some of the conclusions/statements in the article are too strong and should be rephrased to indicate hypotheses and speculations rather than facts. For example, in lines 97-99 the authors state that the finding of poor BM performance in TD children in a prior study 'indicated inferior applicability' or 'inapplicable experimental design'. While this is one possibility, a perhaps more plausible interpretation could be that TD children show 'poor' performance due to outstanding maturation of the underlying (global) BM processes (as the authors suggest themselves that BM perception can improve with age). There are several other examples where statements are too strong or misleading, which need attention.

      We thank you for pointing out the issue. We have toned down and rephrased the strong statements and made the necessary revisions.

      “Another study found that children with ADHD performed worse in BM detection with moderate ratios of noise34. This may be due to the fact that BM stimuli with noise dots will increase the difficulty of identification, which highlights the difference in processing BM between the two groups33,35.” (lines 111 - 115)

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors presented point light displays of human walkers to children (mean = 9 years) with and without ADHD to compare their biological motion perception abilities and relate them to IQ, social responsiveness scale (SRS) scores and age. They report that children with ADHD were worse at all three biological motion tasks, but that those loading more heavily on local processing related to social interaction skills and global processing to age. The important and solid findings are informative for understanding this complex condition, as well as biological motion processing mechanisms in general. However, I am unsure that these differences between local and global skills are truly supported by the data and suggest some further analyses.

      Strengths:

      The authors present clear differences between the ADHD and TD children in biological motion processing, and this question has not received as much attention as equivalent processing capabilities in autism. They use a task that appears well controlled. They raise some interesting mechanistic possibilities for differences in local and global motion processing, which are distinctions worth exploring. The group differences will therefore be of interest to those studying ADHD, as well as other developmental conditions, and those examining biological motion processing mechanisms in general.

      We appreciate your positive feedback. In revised manuscript, we have added more analyses to support the differences between local and global motion processing. Please refer to our response to the point #3 you mentioned below.

      Weaknesses:

      I am unsure that the data are strong enough to support claims about differences between global and local processing wrt social communication skills and age. The mechanistic possibilities for why these abilities may dissociate in such a way are interesting, but do not seem so plausible to me. I am also concerned about gender, and possible autism, confounds when examining the effect of ADHD. Specifics:

      Gender confound. There are proportionally more boys in the ADHD than TD group. The authors appear to attempt to overcome this issue by including gender as a covariate. I am unsure if this addresses the problem. The vast majority of participants in the ADHD group are male, and gender is categorically, not continuously, defined. I'm pretty sure this violates the assumptions of ANCOVA.

      We appreciate your comments. We concur with you that although we observed a clear difference between local and global BM processing in ADHD, the evidence is to some extent preliminary. The mechanistic possibilities for why these abilities may dissociate have been discussed in revised manuscript. Please refer to the response to reviewer 2’s point #2. To further examine if gender played a role in the observed results, we used a statistical matching technique to obtain a sub-dataset. The pattern of results remained with the more balanced dataset (see Supplementary Information part 1). According to your suggestion, we have also presented the results without using gender as a covariate in main text and also separated the data of boys and girls on the plots (see Figure 1 and Figure S1). There were indeed no signs of a gender effect.

      Autism. Autism and ADHD are highly comorbid. The authors state that the TD children did not have an autism or ADHD diagnosis, but they do not state that the ADHD children did not have an autism diagnosis. Given the nature of the claims, this seems crucial information for the reader.

      Thanks for your suggestion. We have confirmed that all children with ADHD in our study were not diagnosed with autism. We used a semi-structured interview instrument (K-SADSPL-C) to confirm every recruited child with ADHD but not with ASD. The exclusion criteria for both groups were mentioned in the Materials and methods section:

      “Exclusion criteria for both groups were: (a) neurological diseases; (b) other neurodevelopmental disorders (e.g., ASD, Mental retardation, and tic disorders), affective disorders and schizophrenia…” (lines 158 - 162)

      Conclusions. The authors state frequently that it was the local BM task that related to social communication skills (SRS) and not the global tasks. However, the results section shows a correlation between SRS and all three tasks. The only difference is that when looking specifically within the ADHD group, the correlation is only significant for the local task. I think that if the authors wish to make strong claims here they must show inferential stats supporting (1) a difference between ADHD and TD SRS-Task 1 correlations, and (2) a difference in those differences for Task 2 and 3 relative to Task 1. I think they should also show a scatterplot of this correlation, with separate lines of best fit for the two groups, for Tasks 2 and 3 as well. I.e. Figure 4 should have 3 panels. I would recommend the same type of approach for age. Currently, they have small samples for correlations, and are reading much of theoretical significance between some correlations passing significance threshold and others not. It would be incredibly interesting if the social skills (as measured by SRS) only relate to local BM abilities, and age only to global, but I think the data are not so clear with the current information. I would be surprised if all BM abilities did not improve with age. Even if there is some genetic starter kit (and that this differs according to particular BM component), most abilities improve with learning/experience/age.

      Thank you for this recommendation. We have added more statistics to test differences between the correlations (a difference between ADHD and TD in SRS-Task 1 correlations (see the first paragraph of Supplementary Information part 2), a difference in SRS-response accuracy correlations for Task 2 and 3 relative to Task 1(see the second paragraph of Supplementary Information part 2), and a difference in age-response accuracy correlations for Task 2 and 3 relative to Task 1 in ADHD group (see Supplementary Information part 3)). Additionally, we have included scatterplots for SRS-Task1, SRS-Task2, SRS-Task3 (with separate lines of best fit for the two groups in each, see Figure 4), SRS-ADHD, SRS-TD, age-ADHD and age-TD (with separate lines of best fit for the three tasks in each, see Figure S2 and S3) to make a clear demonstration. Detailed results have been presented in the revised manuscript and Supplementary Information. We expect these further analyses would strengthen our conclusions.

      Theoretical assumptions. The authors make some sweeping statements about local vs global biological motion processing that need to be toned down. They assume that local processing is specifically genetically whereas global processing is a product of experience. The fact their global, but not local, task performance improves with age would tend to suggest there could be some difference here, but the existing literature does not allow for this certainty. The chick studies showing a neonatal preference are controversial and confounded - I cannot remember the specifics but I think there an upper vs lower visual field complexity difference here.

      Thank you for pointing out this issue. We have toned down rephrased our claims that the difference between local and global BM processing according to your suggestion:

      “These findings suggest that local and global mechanisms might play different roles in BM perception, though the exact mechanisms underlying the distinction remain unclear. Exploring the two components of BM perception will enhance our understanding of the difference between local and global BM processing, shedding light on the psychological processes involved in atypical BM perception.” (lines 87 - 92)

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I have only a number of minor points that should be addressed prior to publication:

      L. 95ff: What is meant by 'inapplicability of experimental designs' ? This paragraph is somewhat unclear.

      In revised manuscript, we have clarified this point (lines 111 - 115).

      L. 146: The groups were not perfectly balanced for sex. Would results change fundamentally in a more balanced design, or can arguments be given that gender does not play a role, like it seems to be the case for some functions in biological motion perception (e.g. Pavlova et al. 2015; Tsang et al 2018). One could provide a justification that this disbalance does not matter or test for subsampled balanced data sets maybe.

      This point is similar to the point #1 from reviewer 3, and we have addressed this issue in our response above.

      L. 216 f.: In this paragraph it does not become very clear that the mask for the global task consisted of scrambles generated from walkers walking in the same direction. The mask for the local task then should consist of a balanced mask that contains the same amount of local motion cues indicating right and leftwards motion. Was this the case? (Not so clear from this paragraph.)

      Regarding the local task, the introduction of mask would make the task too difficult for children. Therefore, in the local task, we only displayed a scrambled walker without a mask, which was more suitable for children to complete the task. We have made clear this point in the corresponding paragraph (lines 232 - 241).

      L. 224 ff.: Here it would be helpful to see the 5 different 'facing' directions of the walkers. What does this exactly mean? Do they move on oblique paths that are not exactly orthogonal to the viewing directions, and how much did these facing directions differ?

      Out of the five walkers we used, two faced straight left or right, orthogonal to the viewing directions. Two walked with their bodies oriented 45 degrees from the observer, to the left or right. The last one walked towards the observer. We have included a video (Video 4) to demonstrate the 5 facing directions.

      L. 232: How was the number of 5 practicing trials determined/justified?

      As mentioned in main text, global BM processing is susceptible to learning. Therefore, too many practicing trials would increase BM visual experience and influence the results. We determined the number of training trials to be 5 based on the results of the pilot experiment. During this phase, we observed that nearly all children were able to understand the task requirements well after completing 5 practicing trials.

      L 239: Apparently no non-parametric statistics was applied. Maybe it would be good to mention in the Statistics section briefly why this was justified.

      We appreciate your suggestion and have cited two references in the Statistics section (Fagerland et al. 2012, Rochon et al. 2012). Fagerland et al., mentioned that when the sample size increases, the t-test is more robust. According to the central limit theorem, when the sample size is greater than 30, the sampling distribution of the mean can be safely assumed to be normal.

      (http://www2.psychology.uiowa.edu/faculty/mordkoff/GradStats/part%201/I.07%20normal.p df). In fact, we also ran non-parametric statistics for our data and found the results to be robust.

      L 290: 'FIQ' this abbreviation should be defined.

      Regarding the abbreviation ’FIQ’, it stands for the abbreviation of the full-scale intellectual quotient, which was mentioned in Materials and methods section:

      “Scores of the four broad areas constitute the full-scale intellectual quotient (FIQ).”

      L. 290 ff.: These model 'BM-local = age + gender etc ' is a pretty sloppy notation. I think what is meant that a GLM was used that uses the predictors gender etc. time appropriate beta_i values. This formula should be corrected or one just says that a GLM was run with the predictors gender ....

      The same criticism applies to these other models that follow.

      We thank you for pointing this out. We have modified all formulas accordingly in the revised manuscript (see part3 of the Results section).

      All these models assume linearity of the combination of the predictors.was this assumption verified?

      We referred to the previous study of BM perception in children. They found main predictor variables, including IQ (Rutherford et al., 2012; Jones et al., 2011) and age (Annaz et al., 2010; van et al., 2016), have a linear relation with the ability of BM processing.

      L. 296ff.: For model (b) it looks like general BM performance is strongly driven by the predictor global BM performance in the group of patients. Does the same observation also apply to the normals?

      The same phenomenon was not observed in TD children. We have briefly discussed this point in the Discussion section of the revised manuscript (lines 449 - 459).

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Please add public access to the data repository so data availability can be assessed.

      The data of the study will be available at https://osf.io/37p5s/.

      (2) Although overall, the language was clear and understandable, there are a few parts where language might confuse a reader and lead to misconceptions. For instance, line 52: Did the authors mean to refer to 'emotions and intentions' instead of 'emotions and purposes'? See also examples where rephrasing may help to reflect a statement is speculation rather than fact.

      Thanks for the comments. We have carefully checked the full text and rephrased the confused statements.

      (3) Line 83/84: Autism is not a 'mental disorder' - please change to something like 'developmental disability'. Authors are encouraged to adapt their language according to terms preferred by the community (e.g., see Fig. 5 in this article:

      https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/aur.2864)

      Suggestion well taken. We have changed the wording accordingly:

      “In recent years, BM perception has received significant attention in studies of mental disorders (e.g., schizophrenia30) and developmental disabilities, particularly in ASD, characterized by deficits in social communication and social interaction31,32.” (lines 93 - 95)

      (4) Please report how the sample size for the study was determined.

      In the Materials and methods section (lines 168 - 173), we explained how the sample size was determined.

      Line 94: It would be helpful to have a brief description of what neurophysiological differences have been observed upon BM perception in children with ADHD.

      Thanks for the comment. We have added a brief description of neurophysiological findings in children with ADHD (lines 108 - 111).

      (6) Line 106/107 and 108/109: please add references.

      We have revised this part, and the relevant findings and references are in line with the revised manuscript (lines 77, 132 - 133).

      (7) Line 292: Please add what order the factors were entered into each regression model.

      Regarding this issue, we used SPSS 26 for the main analysis. SPSS utilizes the Type III sum of squares (default) to evaluate models. Regardless of the order in the GLM, we will obtain the same result. For more information, please refer to the documentation of SPSS 26 (https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/spss-statistics/26.0.0?topic=features-glm-univariate-analysis).

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors)

      (1) Task specifics. It is key to understanding the findings, as well as the dissociation between tasks, that the precise nature of the stimuli is clear. I think there is room for improvement in description here. Task 1 is described as involving relocating dots within the range of the intact walker. Of course, PLWs are created by presenting dots at the joints, so relocation can involve either moving to another place on the body, or random movement within the 2D spatial array (which likely involves moving it off the body). Which was done? It is said that Ps must indicate the motion direction, but what was the display of the walker? Sagittal? Task 2 requires detecting whether there is an intact walker amongst scrambled walkers. Were all walkers completely overlaid? Task 3 requires detecting the left v right facing of an intact walker at different orientations, presented amongst noise. So Task 3 requires determining facing direction and Task 1 walking direction. Are these tasks the same but described differently? Or can walkers ever walk backwards? Wrt this point, I also think it would help the reader if example videos were uploaded.

      We appreciate you for bringing this to our attention. With regards to Task 1, it appears that your second speculation is correct. We scrambled the original dots and randomly presented them within the 2D spatial array (which likely involved moving them off the body). As a result, the global configuration of the 13 dots was completed disrupted while preserving the motion trajectory of each individual dot. This led to the display of scrambled dots on the monitor (which does not resemble a human). In practice, these local BM cues contain information about motion direction. In Task 2, the target walkers completely overlaid by a mask that is approximately 1.44 times the size of the intact walker. The task requirements of Task 1 and Task3 are same, which is judging the motion (walking) direction. The difference is that Task 1 displayed a scrambled walker while Task 3 displayed an intact walker within a mask. We have clarified these points and improved our descriptions in Procedure section and created example videos for each task, which we believe will be helpful for the readers to understand each task.

      (2) Gender confound (see above). I think that the authors should present the results without gender as a covariate. Can they separate boys and girls on the plots with different coloured individual datapoints, such that readers can see whether it's actually a gender effect driving the supposed ADHD effect? And show that there are no signs of a gender effect in their TD group?

      This point is similar to the point #1 you mentioned. Please refer to our response to that point above.

      (3) Autism possible confound (see above). I think the authors must report whether any of the ADHD group had an autism diagnosis.

      Please refer to the response for the point #2 your mentioned.

      (4) Conclusions concerning differences between the local and global tasks wrt SRS and age (see above). I believe the authors should add stats demonstrating differences between the correlations to support such claims, as well as demonstrating appropriate scatterplots for SRS-Task 1, SRS-Task 2, SRS-Task 3 and age-Task 1, age-Task2 and age-Task 3 (with separate lines of best fit for the two groups in each).

      Please refer to the response for the point #3 your mentioned.

      (5) Theoretical assumptions (see above). I would suggest rephrasing all claims here to outline that these discussed mechanistic differences between local and global BM processing are only possibilities and not known on the basis of existing data.

      Please refer to the response for the point #4 your mentioned.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I only have a few minor suggestions:

      Abstract: I really liked the conclusion (that IM and VWM are two temporal extremes of the same process) as articulated in lines 557--563. (It is always satisfying when the distinction between two things that seem fundamentally different vanishes). If something like this but shorter could be included in the Abstract, it would highlight the novel aspects of the results a little more, I think.

      Thank you for this comment. We have added the following to the abstract:

      “A key conclusion is that differences in capacity classically thought to distinguish IM and VWM are in fact contingent upon a single resource-limited WM store.”

      L 216: There's an orphan parenthesis in "(justifying the use".

      Fixed.

      L 273: "One surprising result was the observed set size effect in the 0 ms delay condition". In this paragraph, it might be a good idea to remind the reader of the difference between the simultaneous and zero-delay conditions. If I got it right, the results differ between these conditions because it takes some amount of processing time to interpret the cue and free the resources associated with the irrelevant stimuli. Recalling that fact would make this paragraph easier to digest.

      That is correct. However, at this point in the text, we have not yet fitted the DyNR model to the data. Therefore, we believe that introducing cue processing and resource reallocation as concepts that differentiate between those two conditions would disrupt the flow of this paragraph. We address these points soon after, in a paragraph starting on line 341.

      Figures 3, 5: The labels at the bottom of each column in A would be more clear if placed at the top of each column instead. That way, the x-axis for the plots in A could be labeled appropriately, as "Error in orientation estimate" or something to that effect.

      We edited both figures, now Figure 4 and Figure 6, as suggested.

      L 379: It should be "(see Eq 6)", I believe.

      That is correct, line 379 (currently line 391) should read ‘Eq 6’. Fixed.

      L 379--385: I was a bit mystified as to why the scaled diffusion rate produced a worse fit than a constant rate. I imagine the scaled version was set to something like

      sigma^2_diff_scaled = sigma^2_base + K*(N-1)

      where N is the set size and sigma^2_base and K are parameters. If this model produced a similar fit as with a constant diffusion rate, the AIC would penalize it because of the extra parameter. But why would the fit be worse (i.e., not match the pattern of variability)? Shouldn't the fitter just find that the K=0 solution is the best? Not a big deal; the Nelder-Mead solutions can wobble when that many parameters are involved, but if there's a simple explanation it might be worth commenting on.

      The scaled diffusion was implemented by extending Eq 6 in the following way:

      σ(t)2 = (t-toffset) * σ̇ 2diff * N

      where N is set size. Therefore, the scaling was not associated with a free parameter that could become 0 if set size did not affect diffusion rate, but variability rather mandatory increased with set size. We now clarify this in the text:

      “The second variant was identical to the proposed model, except that we replaced the constant diffusion rate with a set size scaled diffusion rate by multiplying the right side of Eq 6 by N.“

      Figure 4 is not mentioned in the main text. Maybe the end of L 398 would be a good place to point to it. The paragraph at L 443-455 would also benefit from a couple of references to it.

      Thank you for this suggestion. Figure 4 (now Figure 5) was previously mentioned on line 449 (previously line 437), but now we have included it on line 410 (previously line 398), within the paragraph spanning lines 455-467 (previously 443-455), and also on line 136 where we first discuss masking effects.

      L 500: Figure S7 is mentioned before Figures S5 and S6. Quite trivial, I know....

      Thank you for this comment. There was no specific reason for Figure S7 to appear after S5 & S6, so we simply swapped their order to be consistent with how they are referred to in the manuscript (i.e., S7 became S5, S5 became S6, and S6 became S7).

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) One potential weakness is that the model assumes sensory information is veridical. However, this isn't likely the case. Acknowledging noise in sensory representations could affect the model interpretation in a couple of different ways. First, neurophysiological recordings have shown normalization affects sensory representations, even when a stimulus is still present on the screen. The DyNR model partially addresses this concern because reports are drawn from working memory, which is normalized. However, if sensory representations were also normalized, then it may improve the model variant where subjects draw directly from sensory representations (an alternative model that is currently described but discarded).

      Thank you for this suggestion. We can consider two potential mechanisms through which divisive normalization might be incorporated into sensory processing within the DyNR model.

      The first possibility involves assuming that normalization is pre-attentive. In this scenario, the sensory activity of each object would be rescaled at the lowest level of sensory processing, occurring before the allocation of attentional or VWM resources. One strong prediction of such an implementation is that recall error in the simultaneous cue condition (Experiment 1) should vary with set size. However, this prediction is inconsistent with the observed data, which failed to show a significant difference between set sizes, and is more closely aligned with the hypothesis of no-difference (F(2,18) = 1.26, p = .3, η2 = .04, BF10 = 0.47). On that basis, we anticipate that introducing normalization as a pre-attentive mechanism would impair the model fit.

      An alternative scenario is to consider normalization as post-attentive. In the simultaneous cueing condition, only one item is attended (i.e., the cued one), regardless of the displayed set size. Here, we would expect normalized activity for a single item, regardless of the number of presented objects, which would then be integrated into VWM. This expanded DyNR model with post-attentive normalization would make exactly the same predictions as the proposed DyNR for recall fidelity, so distinguishing between these models would not be possible based on working memory experiments.

      To acknowledge the possibility that sensory signals could undergo divisive normalization and to motivate future research, we have added the following to our manuscript:

      “As well as being implicated in higher cognitive processes including VWM (Buschman et al, 2011; Sprague et al., 2014), divisive normalization has been shown to be widespread in basic sensory processing (Bonin et al., 2005; Busse et al., 2009; Ni et al., 2017). The DyNR model presently incorporates the former but not the latter type of normalization. While the data observed in our experiments do not provide evidence for normalization of sensory signals (note comparable recall errors across set size in the simultaneous cue condition of Experiment 1), this may be because sensory suppressive effects are localized and our stimuli were relatively widely separated in the visual field: future research could explore the consequences of sensory normalization for recall from VWM using, e.g., centre-surround stimuli (Bloem et al., 2018).”

      Bloem, I. M., Watanabe, Y. L., Kibbe, M. M., & Ling, S. (2018). Visual Memories Bypass Normalization. Psychological Science, 29(5), 845–856. https://doi.org/10.1177/0956797617747091

      Bonin, V., Mante, V., & Carandini, M. (2005). The Suppressive Field of Neurons in Lateral Geniculate Nucleus. The Journal of Neuroscience, 25(47), 10844–10856. https://doi.org/10.1523/JNEUROSCI.3562-05.2005

      Buschman, T. J., Siegel, M., Roy, J. E., & Miller, E. K. (2011). Neural substrates of cognitive capacity limitations. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 108(27), 11252–11255. https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1104666108

      Busse, L., Wade, A. R., & Carandini, M. (2009). Representation of Concurrent Stimuli by Population Activity in Visual Cortex. Neuron, 64(6), 931–942. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.neuron.2009.11.004

      Ni, A. M., & Maunsell, J. H. R. (2017). Spatially tuned normalization explains attention modulation variance within neurons. Journal of Neurophysiology, 118(3), 1903–1913. https://doi.org/10.1152/jn.00218.2017

      Sprague, T. C., Ester, E. F., & Serences, J. T. (2014). Reconstructions of Information in Visual Spatial Working Memory Degrade with Memory Load. Current Biology, 24(18), 2174–2180. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cub.2014.07.066

      Second, visual adaptation predicts sensory information should decrease over time. This would predict that for long stimulus presentation times, the error would increase. Indeed, this seems to be reflected in Figure 5B. This effect is not captured by the DyNR model.

      Indeed, neural responses in the visual cortex have been observed to quickly adapt during stimulus presentation, showing reduced responses to prolonged stimuli after an initial transient (Groen et al., 2022; Sawamura et al., 2006; Zhou et al., 2019). This adaptation typically manifests as 1) reduced activity towards the end of stimulus presentation and 2) a faster decay towards baseline activity after stimulus offset.

      In the DyNR model, we use an idealized solution in which we convolve the presented visual signal with a response function (i.e., temporal filter). At the longest presentation durations, in DyNR, the sensory signal plateaus and remains stable until stimulus offset. Because our psychophysical data does not allow us to identify the exact neural coding scheme that underlies the sensory signal, we tend to favour this simple implementation, which is broadly consistent with some previous attempts to model temporal dynamics in sensory responses (e.g., Carandini and Heeger, 1994). However, we agree with the reviewer that some adaptation of the sensory signal with prolonged presentation would also be consistent with our data.

      We have added the following to the manuscript:

      “In Experiment 2, the longest presentation duration shows an upward trend in error at set sizes 4 and 10. While this falls within the range of measurement error, it is also possible that this is a meaningful pattern arising from visual adaptation of the sensory signal, whereby neural populations reduce their activity after prolonged stimulation. This would mean less residual sensory signal would be available after the cue to supplement VWM activity, predicting a decline in fidelity at higher set sizes. Visual adaptation has previously been successfully accounted for by a type of delayed normalization model in which the sensory signal undergoes a series of linear and nonlinear transformations (Zhou et al., 2019). Such a model could in future be incorporated into DyNR and validated against psychophysical and neural data.”

      Carandini, M., & Heeger, D. J. (1994). Summation and division by neurons in primate visual cortex. Science, 264(5163), 1333–1336. https://doi.org/10.1126/science.8191289

      Groen, I. I. A., Piantoni, G., Montenegro, S., Flinker, A., Devore, S., Devinsky, O., Doyle, W., Dugan, P., Friedman, D., Ramsey, N. F., Petridou, N., & Winawer, J. (2022). Temporal Dynamics of Neural Responses in Human Visual Cortex. The Journal of Neuroscience, 42(40), 7562–7580. https://doi.org/10.1523/JNEUROSCI.1812-21.2022

      Sawamura, H., Orban, G. A., & Vogels, R. (2006). Selectivity of Neuronal Adaptation Does Not Match Response Selectivity: A Single-Cell Study of the fMRI Adaptation Paradigm. Neuron, 49(2), 307–318. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.neuron.2005.11.028

      Zhou, J., Benson, N. C., Kay, K., & Winawer, J. (2019). Predicting neuronal dynamics with a delayed gain control model. PLOS Computational Biology, 15(11), e1007484. https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pcbi.1007484

      (2) A second potential weakness is that, in Experiment 1, the authors briefly change the sensory stimulus at the end of the delay (a 'phase shift', Fig. 6A). I believe this is intended to act as a mask. However, I would expect that, in the DyNR model, this should be modeled as a new sensory input (in Experiment 2, 50 ms is plenty of time for the subjects to process the stimuli). One might expect this change to disrupt sensory and memory representations in a very characteristic manner. This seems to make a strong testable hypothesis. Did the authors find evidence for interference from the phase shift?

      The phase shift was implemented with the intention of reducing retinal after-effects, essentially acting as a mask for retinal information only; crucially the orientation of the stimulus is unchanged by the phase shift, so from the perspective of the DyNR model, it transmits the same orientation information to working memory as the original stimulus.

      If our objective were to model sensory input at the level of individual neurons and their receptive fields, we would indeed need to treat this phase shift as a novel input. Nevertheless, for DyNR, conceived as an idealization of a biological system for encoding orientation information, we can safely assume that visual areas in biological organisms have a sufficient number of phase-sensitive simple cells and phase-indifferent complex cells to maintain the continuity of input to VWM.

      When comparing conditions with and without the phase shift of stimuli (Fig S1B), we found performance to be comparable in the perceptual condition (simultaneous presentation) and with the longest delay (1 second), suggesting that the phase shift did not change the visibility or encoding of information into VWM. In contrast, we found strong evidence that observers had access to an additional source of information over intermediate delays when the phase shift was not used. This was evident through enhanced recall performance from 0 ms to 400 ms delay. Based on this, we concluded that the additional source of information available in the absence of a phase shift was accessible immediately following stimulus offset and had a brief duration, aligning with the theoretical concept of retinal afterimages.

      (3) It seems odd that the mask does not interrupt sensory processing in Experiment 2. Isn't this the intended purpose of the mask? Should readers interpret this as all masks not being effective in disrupting sensory processing/iconic memory? Or is this specific to the mask used in the experiment?

      Visual masks are often described as instantly and completely halting the visual processing of information that preceded the mask. We also anticipated the mask would entirely terminate sensory processing, but our data indicate the effect was not complete (as indicated by model variants in Experiment 2). Nevertheless, we believe we achieved our intended goal with this experiment – we observed a clear modulation of response errors with changing stimulus duration, indicating that the post-stimulus information that survived masking did not compromise the manipulation of stimulus duration. Moreover, the DyNR model successfully accounted for the portion of signal that survived the mask.

      We can identify two possible reasons why masking was incomplete. First, it is possible that the continuous report measure used in our experiments is more sensitive than the discrete measures (e.g., forced-choice methods) commonly employed in experiments that found masks to be 100% effective. Second, despite using a flickering white noise mask at full contrast, it is possible that it may not have been the most effective mask; for instance, a mask consisting of many randomly oriented Gabor patches matched in spatial frequency to the stimuli could prove more effective. We decided against such a mask because we were concerned that it could potentially act as a new input to orientation-sensitive neurons, rather than just wiping out any residual sensory activity.

      (4) I apologize if I missed it, but the authors did not compare the DyNR model to a model without decaying sensory information for Experiment 1.

      We tested two DyNR variants in which the diffusion process was solely responsible for memory fidelity dynamics. These models assumed that the sensory signal terminates abruptly with stimuli offset, and the VWM signal encoding the stimuli was equal to the limit imposed by normalization, independent of the delay duration.

      As variants of this model failed to account for the observed response errors both quantitatively (see 'Fixed neural signal' under Model variants) and qualitatively (Figure S3), we decided not to test any more restrictive variants, such as the one without sensory decay and diffusion.

      (5) In the current model, selection is considered to be absolute (all or none). However, this need not be the case (previous work argues for graded selection). Could a model where memories are only partially selected, in a manner that is mediated by load, explain the load effects seen in behavior?

      Thank you for this point. If attentional selection was partial, it would affect the observers’ efficiency in discarding uncued objects to release allocated resources and encode additional information about the cued item. We and others have previously examined whether humans can efficiently update their VWM when previous items become obsolete. For example, Taylor et al. (2023) showed that observers could efficiently remove uncued items from VWM and reallocate the released resources to new visual information. These findings align with results from other studies (e.g., Ecker, Oberauer, & Lewandowsky, 2014; Kessler & Meiran, 2006; Williams et al., 2013).

      Based on these findings, we feel justified in assuming that observers in our current task were capable of fully removing all uncued objects, allowing them to continue the encoding process for the cued orientation that was already partially stored in VWM, such that the attainable limit on representational precision for the cued item equals the maximum precision of VWM.

      Partial removal could in principle be modelled in the DyNR model by introducing an additional plateau parameter specifying a maximum attainable precision after the cue. Our concern would be that such a plateau parameter would trade off with the parameter associated with Hick’s law (i.e., cue interpretation time). The former would control the amount of information that can be encoded into VWM, while the latter regulates the amount of sensory information available for encoding. We are wary of adding additional parameters, and hence flexibility, to the model where we do not have the data to sufficiently constrain them.

      Ecker, U. K. H., Oberauer, K., & Lewandowsky, S. (2014b). Working memory updating involves item-specific removal. Journal of Memory and Language, 74, 1–15. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jml. 2014.03.006

      Kessler, Y., & Meiran, N. (2006). All updateable objects in working memory are updated whenever any of them are modified: Evidence from the memory updating paradigm. Journal of Experimental Psychology: Learning, Memory, and Cognition, 32, 570–585. https://doi.org/10.1037/0278-7393.32.3.570

      Taylor, R., Tomić, I., Aagten-Murphy, D., & Bays, P. M. (2023). Working memory is updated by reallocation of resources from obsolete to new items. Attention, Perception, & Psychophysics, 85(5), 1437–1451. https://doi.org/10.3758/s13414-022-02584-2

      Williams, M., & Woodman, G. F. (2012). Directed forgetting and directed remembering in visual working memory. Journal of Experimental Psychology. Learning, Memory, and Cognition, 38(5), 1206–1220. https://doi.org/10.1037/a0027389

      (6) Previous work, both from the authors and others, has shown that memories are biased as if they are acted on by attractive/repulsive forces. For example, the memory of an oriented bar is biased away from horizontal and vertical and biased towards diagonals. This is not accounted for in the current model. In particular, this could be one mechanism to generate a non-uniform drift rate over time. As noted in the paper, a non-uniform drift rate could capture many of the behavioral effects reported.

      The reviewer is correct that the model does not currently include stimulus-specific effects, although our work on that topic provides a clear template for incorporating them in future (e.g. Taylor & Bays, 2018). Specifically on the question of generating a non-uniform drift, we have another project that currently looks at this exact question (cited in our manuscript as Tomic, Girones, Lengyel, and Bays; in prep.). By examining various datasets with varying memory delays, including the Additional Dataset 1 reported in the Supplementary Information, we found that stimulus-specific effects on orientation recall remain constant with retention time. Specifically, although there is a clear increase in overall error over time, estimation biases remain constant in direction and amplitude, indicating that the bias does not manifest in drift rates (see also Rademaker et al., 2018; Figure S1).

      Taylor, R., & Bays, P. M. (2018). Efficient coding in visual working memory accounts for stimulus-specific variations in recall. The Journal of Neuroscience, 1018–18. https://doi.org/10.1523/JNEUROSCI.1018-18.2018

      Rademaker, R. L., Park, Y. E., Sack, A. T., & Tong, F. (2018). Evidence of gradual loss of precision for simple features and complex objects in visual working memory. Journal of Experimental Psychology: Human Perception and Performance. https://doi.org/10.1037/xhp0000491

      (7) Finally, the authors use AIC to compare many different model variants to the DyNR model. The delta-AICs are high (>10), indicating a strong preference for the DyNR model over the variants. However, the overall quality of fit to the data is not clear. What proportion of the variance in data was the model able to explain? In particular, I think it would be helpful for the reader if the authors reported the variance explained on withheld data (trials, conditions, or subjects).

      Thank you for this comment.

      Below we report the estimates of r2, representing the goodness of fit between observed data (i.e., RMSE) and the DyNR model predictions.

      In Experiment 1, the r2 values between observations and predictions were computed across delays for each set size, yielding the following estimates: r2ss1 = 0.60; r2ss4 = 0.87; r2ss10 = 0.95. Note that lower explained variance for set size 1 arises from both data and model predictions having near-constant precision.

      In Experiment 2, we calculated r2 between observations and predictions across presentation durations, separately for each set size, resulting in the following estimates: r2ss1 = 0.88; r2ss4 = 0.71; r2ss10 = 0.70. Note that in this case the decreasing percentage of explained variance with set size is a consequence of having less variability in both data and model predictions with larger set sizes.

      While these estimates suggest that the DyNR model effectively fits the psychophysical data, a more rigorous validation approach would involve cross-validation checks across all conditions with a withheld portion of trials. Regrettably, due to the large number of conditions in each experiment, we could only collect 50 trials per condition. We are sceptical that fitting the model to even fewer trials, as necessary for cross-validation, would provide a reliable assessment of model performance.

      Minor: It isn't clear to me why the behavioral tasks are shown in Figure 6. They are important for understanding the results and are discussed earlier in the manuscript (before Figure 3). This just required flipping back and forth to understand the task before I could interpret the results.

      Thank you for this comment. We have now moved the behavioural task figure to appear early in the manuscript (as Figure 3).

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Dynamics of sensory signals during perception

      I believe that the modeled sensory signal is a reasonable simplification and different ways to model the decay function are discussed. I would like to ask the authors to discuss the implications of slightly more complex initial sensory transients such as the ones shown in Teeuwen (2021). Specifically for short exposure times, this might be particularly relevant for the model fits as some of the alternative models diverge from the data for short exposures. In addition, the role of feedforward (initial transient?) and feedback signaling (subsequent "plateau" activity) could be discussed. The first one might relate more strongly to sensory signals whereas the latter relates more to top-down attention/recurrent processing/VWM.

      Particularly, this latter response might also be sensitive to the number of items present on the screen which leads to a related question pertaining to the limitations of attention during perception. Some work suggests that perception is similarly limited in the amount of information that can be represented concurrently (Tsubomi, 2013). Could the authors discuss the implications of this hypothesis? What happens if maximum sensory amplitude is set as a free parameter in the model?

      Tsubomi, H., Fukuda, K., Watanabe, K., & Vogel, E. K. (2013). Neural limits to representing objects still within view. Journal of Neuroscience, 33(19), 8257-8263.

      Thank you for this question. Below, we unpack it and answer it point by point.

      While we agree our model of the sensory response is justified as an idealization of the biological reality, we also recognise that recent electrophysiological recordings have illuminated intricacies of neuronal responses within the striate cortex, a critical neural region associated with sensory memory (Teeuwen et al, 2021). Notably, these recordings reveal a more nuanced pattern where neurons exhibit an initial burst of activity succeeded by a lower plateau in firing rate, and stimulus offset elicits a second small burst in the response of some neurons, followed by a gradual decrease in activity after the stimulus disappears (Teeuwen et al, 2021).

      In general, asynchronous bursts of activity in individual neurons will tend to average out in the population making little difference to predictions of the DyNR model. Synchronized bursts at stimulus onset could affect predictions for the shortest presentations in Exp 2, however the model appears to capture the data very well without including them. We would be wary of incorporating these phenomena into the model without more clarity on their universality (e.g., how stimulus-dependent they are), their significance at the population level (as opposed to individual neurons), and most importantly, their prominence in visual areas outside striate cortex. Specifically, while Teeuwen et al. (2021) described activity in V1, our model does not make strong assumptions about which visual areas are the source of the sensory input to WM. Based on these uncertainties we believe the idealized sensory response is justified for use in our model.

      Next, thank you for the comment on feedforward and feedback signals. We have added the following to our manuscript:

      “Following onset of a stimulus, the visual signal ascends through visual areas via a cascade of feedforward connections. This feedforward sweep conveys sensory information that persists during stimulus presentation and briefly after it disappears (Lamme et al., 1998). Simultaneously, reciprocal feedback connections carry higher-order information back towards antecedent cortical areas (Lamme and Roelfsema, 2000). In our psychophysical task, feedback connections likely play a critical role in orienting attention towards the cued item, facilitating the extraction of persisting sensory signals, and potentially signalling continuous information on the available resources for VWM encoding. While our computational study does not address the nature of these feedforward and feedback signals, a challenge for future research is to describe the relative contributions of these signals in mediating transmission of information between sensory and working memory (Semedo et al., 2022).”

      Lamme, V. A., Supèr, H., & Spekreijse, H. (1998). Feedforward, horizontal, and feedback processing in the visual cortex. Current Opinion in Neurobiology, 8(4), 529–535. https://doi.org/10.1016/S0959-4388(98)80042-1

      Lamme, V. A. F., & Roelfsema, P. R. (2000). The distinct modes of vision offered by feedforward and recurrent processing. Trends in Neurosciences, 23(11), 571–579. https://doi.org/10.1016/S0166-2236(00)01657-X

      Semedo, J. D., Jasper, A. I., Zandvakili, A., Krishna, A., Aschner, A., Machens, C. K., Kohn, A., & Yu, B. M. (2022). Feedforward and feedback interactions between visual cortical areas use different population activity patterns. Nature Communications, 13(1), 1099. https://doi.org/10.1038/s41467-022-28552-w

      Finally, both you and Reviewer 2 raised a similar interesting question regarding capacity limitations of attention during perception Such a limitation could be modelled by freely estimating sensory amplitude and implementing divisive normalization to that signal, similar to how VWM is constrained. We can consider two potential mechanisms through which divisive normalization might be incorporated into sensory processing within the DyNR model.

      The first possibility involves assuming that normalization is pre-attentive. In this scenario, the sensory activity of each object would be rescaled at the lowest level of sensory processing, occurring before the allocation of attentional or VWM resources. One strong prediction of such an implementation is that recall error in the simultaneous cue condition (Experiment 1) should vary with set size. However, this prediction is inconsistent with the observed data, which failed to show a significant difference between set sizes, and is more closely aligned with the hypothesis of no-difference (F(2,18) = 1.26, p = .3, η2 = .04, BF10 = 0.47). On that basis, we anticipate that introducing normalization as a pre-attentive mechanism would impair the model fit.

      An alternative scenario is to consider normalization as post-attentive. In the simultaneous cueing condition, only one item is attended (i.e., the cued one), regardless of the displayed set size. Here, we would expect normalized activity for a single item, regardless of the number of presented objects, which would then be integrated into VWM. This expanded DyNR model with post-attentive normalization would make exactly the same predictions as the proposed DyNR for recall fidelity, so distinguishing between these models would not be possible based on working memory experiments.

      To acknowledge the possibility that sensory signals could undergo divisive normalization and to motivate future research, we have added the following to our manuscript:

      “As well as being implicated in higher cognitive processes including VWM (Buschman et al, 2011; Sprague et al., 2014), divisive normalization has been shown to be widespread in basic sensory processing (Bonin et al., 2005; Busse et al., 2009; Ni et al., 2017). The DyNR model presently incorporates the former but not the latter type of normalization. While the data observed in our experiments do not provide evidence for normalization of sensory signals (note comparable recall errors across set size in the simultaneous cue condition of Experiment 1), this may be because sensory suppressive effects are localized and our stimuli were relatively widely separated in the visual field: future research could explore the consequences of sensory normalization for recall from VWM using, e.g., centre-surround stimuli (Bloem et al., 2018).”

      Bloem, I. M., Watanabe, Y. L., Kibbe, M. M., & Ling, S. (2018). Visual Memories Bypass Normalization. Psychological Science, 29(5), 845–856. https://doi.org/10.1177/0956797617747091

      Bonin, V., Mante, V., & Carandini, M. (2005). The Suppressive Field of Neurons in Lateral Geniculate Nucleus. The Journal of Neuroscience, 25(47), 10844–10856. https://doi.org/10.1523/JNEUROSCI.3562-05.2005

      Buschman, T. J., Siegel, M., Roy, J. E., & Miller, E. K. (2011). Neural substrates of cognitive capacity limitations. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 108(27), 11252–11255. https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1104666108

      Busse, L., Wade, A. R., & Carandini, M. (2009). Representation of Concurrent Stimuli by Population Activity in Visual Cortex. Neuron, 64(6), 931–942. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.neuron.2009.11.004

      Ni, A. M., & Maunsell, J. H. R. (2017). Spatially tuned normalization explains attention modulation variance within neurons. Journal of Neurophysiology, 118(3), 1903–1913. https://doi.org/10.1152/jn.00218.2017

      Sprague, T. C., Ester, E. F., & Serences, J. T. (2014). Reconstructions of Information in Visual Spatial Working Memory Degrade with Memory Load. Current Biology, 24(18), 2174–2180. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cub.2014.07.066

      (2) Effectivity of retro-cues at long delays

      Can the authors discuss how cues presented at long delays (>1000 ms) can still lead to increased memory fidelity when sensory signals are likely to have decayed? A list of experimental work demonstrating this can be found in Souza & Oberauer (2016).

      Souza, A. S., & Oberauer, K. (2016). In search of the focus of attention in working memory: 13 years of the retro-cue effect. Attention, Perception, & Psychophysics, 78, 1839-1860.

      The increased memory fidelity observed with longer delays between memory array offset and cue does not result from integrating available sensory signals into VWM because the sensory signal would have completely decayed by that time. Instead, research so far has indicated several alternative mechanisms that could lead to higher recall precision for cued items, and we can briefly summarize some of them, which are also reviewed in more detail in Souza and Oberauer (2016).

      One possibility is that, after a highly predictive retro-cue indicates the to-be-tested item, uncued items can simply be removed from VWM. This could result in decreased interference for the cued item, and consequently higher recall precision. Secondly, the retro-cue could also indicate which item can be selectively attended to, and thereby differentially strengthening it in memory. Furthermore, the retro-cue could allow evidence to accumulate for the target item ahead of decision-making, and this could increase the probability that the correct information will be selected for response. Finally, the retro-cued stimulus could be insulated from interference by subsequent visual input, while the uncued stimuli may remain prone to such interference.

      A neural account of this retro-cue effect based on the original neural resource model has been proposed in Bays & Taylor, Cog Psych, 2018. However, as we did not use a retro-cue design in the present experiments, we have decided not to elaborate on this in the manuscript.

      (3) Swap errors

      I am somewhat surprised by the empirically observed and predicted pattern of swap errors displayed in Figure S2. For set size 10, swap probability does not consistently increase with the duration of the retention interval, although this was predicted by the author's model. At long intervals, swap probability is significantly higher for large compared to small set sizes, which also seems to contrast with the idea of shared, limited VWM resources. Can the authors provide some insight into why the model fails to reproduce part of the behavioral pattern for swap errors? The sentence in line 602 might also need some reconsideration in this regard.

      Determining the ground truth for swap errors poses a challenge. The prevailing approach has been to employ a simpler model that estimates swap errors, such as a three-component mixture model, and use those estimates as a proxy for ground truth. However, this method is not without its shortcomings. For example, the variability of swap frequency estimates tends to increase with variability in the report feature dimension (here, orientation). This is due to the increasing overlap of response probability distributions for swap and non-swap responses. Consequently, the discrepancy between any two methods of swap estimation is most noticeable when there is substantial variability in orientation reports (e.g., 10 items and long delay or short exposure).

      When modelling swap frequency in the DyNR model, our aim was to provide a parsimonious account of swap errors while implementing similar dynamics in the spatial (cue) feature as in the orientation (report) feature. This parametric description captured the overall pattern of swap frequency with set size and retention and encoding time, but is still only an approximation of the predictions if we fully modelled memory for the conjunction of cue and report features (as in e.g. Schneegans & Bays, 2017; McMaster et al, 2020).

      We expanded the existing text in the section ‘Representational dynamics of cue-dimension features’ of our manuscript:

      “… Although we did not explicitly model the neural signals representing location, the modelled dynamics in the probability of swap errors were consistent with those of the primary memory feature. We provided a more detailed neural account of swap errors in our earlier works that is theoretically compatible with the DyNR model (McMaster et al., 2020; Schneegans & Bays, 2017).

      The DyNR model successfully captured the observed pattern of swap frequencies (intrusion errors). The only notable discrepancy between DyNR and the three-component mixture model (Fig. S2) arises with the largest set size and longest delay, although with considerable interindividual variability. As the variability in report-dimension increases, the estimates of swap frequency become more variable due to the growing overlap between the probability distributions of swap and non-swap responses. This may explain apparent deviations from the modelled swap frequencies with the highest set size and longest delay where orientation response variability was greatest. “

      McMaster, J. M. V., Tomić, I., Schneegans, S., & Bays, P. M. (2022). Swap errors in visual working memory are fully explained by cue-feature variability. Cognitive Psychology, 137, 101493. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cogpsych.2022.101493

      Schneegans, S., & Bays, P. M. (2017). Neural Architecture for Feature Binding in Visual Working Memory. The Journal of Neuroscience, 37(14), 3913–3925. https://doi.org/10.1523/JNEUROSCI.3493-16.2017

      (4) Direct sensory readout

      The model assumes that readout from sensory memory and from VWM happens with identical efficiency. Currently, we don't know if these two systems are highly overlapping or are fundamentally different in terms of architecture and computation. In the case of the latter, it might be less reasonable to assume that information readout would happen at similar efficiencies, as it is currently assumed in the manuscript. Perhaps the authors could briefly discuss this possibility.

      In the direct sensory read-out model, we did not explicitly model the efficiency of readout from either sensory or VWM store. However, the distinctive prediction of this model is that the precision of recall changes exponentially with delay at every set size, including one item. This prediction does not depend on the relative efficiency of readout from sensory and working memory, but only on the principle that direct readout from sensory memory bypasses the capacity limit on working memory. This prediction is inconsistent with the pattern of results observed in Experiment 1, where early cues did not show a beneficial effect on recall error for set size 1. While the proposal raised by the reviewer is intriguing, even if we were to model the process of readout from both the sensory and VWM stores with different efficiencies, the direct read-out model could not account for the near-constant recall error with delay for set size one.

      (5) Encoding of distractors

      One of the model assumptions is that, for simultaneous presentations of memory array and cue only the cued feature will be encoded. Previous work has suggested that participants often accidentally encode distractors even when they are cued before memory array onset (Vogel 2005). Given these findings, how reasonable is this assumption in the authors' model?

      Vogel, E. K., McCollough, A. W., & Machizawa, M. G. (2005). Neural measures reveal individual differences in controlling access to working memory. Nature, 438(7067), 500-503.

      Although previous research suggested that observers can misinterpret the pre-cue and encode one of the uncued items, our results argue against this being the case in the current experiment. Such encoding failures would manifest in overall recall error, resulting in a gradient of error with set size, owing to the presence of more adjacent distractors in larger set sizes. However, when we compared recall errors between set sizes in the simultaneous cue condition, we did not find a significant difference between set sizes, and moreover, our results were more likely under the hypothesis of no-difference (F(2,18) = 1.26, p = .3, η2 = .04, BF10 = 0.47). If observers occasionally encoded and reported one of the uncued items in the simultaneous cue condition, those errors were extremely infrequent and did not affect the overall error distributions.

    1. ABSTRACTThis work is an update and extension of the previously published article “Ultralong Oxford Nanopore Reads Enable the Development of a Reference-Grade Perennial Ryegrass Genome Assembly”, by Frei et al.. The published genome assembly of the doubled haploid perennial ryegrass (Lolium perenne L.) genotype Kyuss marked a milestone for forage grass research and breeding. However, order and orientation errors may exist in the pseudo-chromosomes of Kyuss, since barley (Hordeum vulgare L.), which diverged 30 million years ago from perennial ryegrass, was used as the reference to scaffold Kyuss. To correct for structural errors possibly present in the published Kyuss assembly, we de novo assembled the genome again and generated 50-fold coverage high-throughput chromosome conformation capture (Hi-C) data to assist pseudo-chromosome construction. The resulting new chromosome-level assembly showed improved quality with high contiguity (contig N50 = 120 Mb), high completeness (total BUSCO score = 99%), high base-level accuracy (QV = 50) and correct pseudo-chromosome structure (validated by Hi-C contact map). This new assembly will serve as a better reference genome for Lolium spp. and greatly benefit the forage and turf grass research community.

      This work has been published in GigaByte Journal under a CC-BY 4.0 license (https://doi.org/10.46471/gigabyte.112), and has published the reviews under the same license. These are as follows.

      Reviewer 1. Qing Liu

      This updated double haploid perennial ryegrass (Lolium perenne L.) showed contig N50 of 120 Mb, total BUSCO score=99%, which verified that the improved assembly can serve a reference for Lolium species using 50-fold coverage Hi-C data. The article is well edited except for below revision points. The minor revision is suggested for the current version. 1 Please elucidate the Kyuss v2.0, whether its reference is the same as Kyuss v1.0, if same or separate reference please elucidate. 2 In Table 3 of page 6, What the repeat element number for each family, could authors listed in number and proportion in order to clear the family category, for example, is the number of rolling-circles the same for Heltrons? 3 Tandem repeat or satellite or centromere location data, could author provide for the updated assembly of the Lolium species. 4 For Figure 1, what the heterozygosity and k-mer estimated genome size, I can’t find the data. 5 In Figure 3A, lowercase letter a, b, c , d and e are suggested to subsittute the A, B, C, D and E in order to avoid Figure 3A and Figure 3AA

      Reviewer 2. Istvan Nagy

      Are all data available and do they match the descriptions in the paper? No. Minor revision in the manuscript body is suggested. Gene annotation and repeat annotation data need some minor revision) See details in the "Additional Comments" section. Additional Comments: The submitted dataset reports and improved chromosome-level assembly and annotation of the doubled-haploid line Kyuss of Lolium perenne. The present v2.0 assembly is showing significant improvements as compared to the Kyuss v1.0 assembly published by the same group in 2021: The new assembly incorporates 99% of the estimated genome size in seven pseudo-chromosomes and the >99% BUSCO completeness of the gene space is also impressive.

      Below are mine remarks and suggestions to the present version of manuscript:

      Genome assembly and polishing It's indicated that for the primary assembly of the present work the same source of ONT reads were used as for the previous Kyuss v1.0 assembly. However, in the present manuscript the authors report clearly better assembly quality as opposed to the Kyuss v1.0 assembly. The question remains open, whether the authors achieved better results by changing/optimizing the primary assembly parameters, and/or applying a step-wise, iterating strategy with repeated rounds of long-read and short-read corrections? By any means, a more detailed description/specification of assembly parameters would be desirable.

      Genome annotation In the provided annotation file "kyuss_v2.gff" in the majority of cases gene IDs consisting of the reference chromosome ID and of an ongoing number, like "KYUSg_chr1.188" are used. However in a few cases gene IDs like "KYUSt_contig_1275.207" are also used. This inconsistency might create confusions for future users of Kyuss_2 resources, and while the later type of gene IDs might be useful for internal usage, they became meaningless, as instead of contigs now pseudo-chromosomes (and some unplaced scaffolds) are used as references. The authors should modified the gff files and use a consistent naming scheme for all genes. Further, transcript DNA sequences as well as transcript protein sequences with consistent naming schemes should also be provided.

      Repeat annotation The authors should modify Table 3 by specifying and breaking down repeat categories according to the Unified Classification System of transposable elements, by giving Order and Superfamily specifications (like LTR/Gipsy and LTR/Copia etc, in accord with the provided gff file "kyuss_v2_repeatmask.gff").

      According to the provided repeat annotation BED file, more than 750K repeat features have been annotated on the Kyuss_2 genome. Of these repeat features 57815 are overlapping with gene features and 25843 of these overlaps are longer than 100 bp. This indicate that a substantial portion of the 38765 annotated genes might represent sequences coding for transposon proteins and/or transposon related ORFs. I suggest that the authors revise the gene annotation data (and at least remove gene annotation entries that show ~100% overlap with repeat features).

      Assembly quality assessment "The quality score(QV) estimated by Polca for Kyuss v2.0 was 50, suggesting a 99.999% base-level accuracy with the probability of one sequencing error per 100 kb. The estimated accuracy of Kyuss v1.0 is 99.990% (QV40, Table 1), which is 10 times lower than Kyuss v2.0, suggesting that Kyuss v2 is more accurate than Kyuss v1.0." In my opinion, this sentence needs clarification as readers might have difficulties to properly interpret this - especially considering the facts that the same long-read data was used for both for the v1 as well a for the v2 assembly versions, the short-read mapping rate was the same (99.55%) for both versions and the K-mer completeness analysis results differed only slightly (99,39% vs. 99.48%).

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Review:

      Summary:

      This paper reports how mycobacterial cAMP level is increased under stressful conditions and that the increase is important in the survival of the bacterium in animal hosts.

      Strengths:

      The authors show that under different stresses the response regulator PhoP represses a phosphodiesterase (PDE) that degrades cAMP specifically. Identification of a PDE specific to cAMP is significant progress in understanding Mtb pathogenesis. An increase in cAMP apparently increases bacterial survival upon infection. On the practical side, the reduction of cAMP by increasing PDE can be a means to attenuate the growth of the bacilli. The results have wider implications since PhoP is implicated in controlling diverse mycobacterial stress responses and many bacterial pathogens modulate host cell cAMP level. The results here are straightforward, internally consistent, and of both theoretical and applied interests.

      We thank the reviewers for these extremely encouraging comments.

      Weaknesses:

      Repression of PDE promoter by binding of phosphorylated PhoP could have been shown at higher precision. The binding is now somewhere along a roughly 500 bp region. Although the regulation of PDE is shown to be by transcriptional repression only, it has been described as a homeostatic mechanism. The latter would have required a demonstration of both repression and activation by negative feedback.

      We agree. We have now performed EMSA (Electrophoretic Mobility Shift Assay) experiments and included the data showing DNA binding of PhoP to the upstream regulatory region of rv0805 (rv0805up) as a supplemental figure (see Figure 2-figure supplement 1). The supplemental figure, figure caption, and the relevant results have been adjusted accordingly in the revised manuscript.

      Further, as recommended by the reviewer we have now removed the term ‘homeostatic mechanism’ and rephrased it with ‘maintenance of cAMP level’ in the manuscript.

      Response to Reviewers’ comments

      Reviewer #1:

      The authors have used homeostasis inappropriately. Homeostasis usually requires negative feedback (a clear example is the regulation of Lambda prm promoter). Here, there is no feedback from changes in PDE or cAMP level to their synthesis. Homeostasis does not belong to this paper anywhere.

      As recommended by the reviewer, we have now removed “homeostasis” from the manuscript and mostly replaced it with “maintenance of cAMP level” in the revised manuscript.

      The authors have frequently used adverbs at the beginning of a sentence, such as Notably (l.240, 272, 376), Importantly (l.66, 213), More importantly (l.134), Remarkably (l.264), Interestingly (l.115,301), Intriguingly (l.344), unambiguously (l.347), etc. The use of these words is generally counter-productive. The authors should scan the ms. to eliminate them as far as possible. The sentences would read more clearly and become more impactful.

      Following reviewer’s recommendation, we have now eliminated most of the adverbs, mostly used at the beginning of sentences, in the revised manuscript.

      Specific comments

      (1) L.1: "maintenance of homeostasis" or increasing cAMP level.

      As suggested by the reviewer, we have now replaced “maintenance of cAMP homeostasis” with “maintenance of cAMP level”.

      (2) L.27: mechanism or reason; varying or various.

      As recommended by the reviewer, we have now replaced “mechanism” with “reason” and the word “varying” is deleted while incorporating suggested changes in the abstract.

      (3) L.28-29: The logic of connecting PhoP to cAMP doesn't follow well. The logic is much better in l.54, l.112-5 and l.130.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We have now modified the statement within the ‘abstract’ in the revised manuscript (duplicated below):

      “cAMP is one of the most widely used second messengers which impacts on a wide range of cellular responses in microbial pathogens including M. tuberculosis. Herein, we hypothesized that intra-mycobacterial cAMP level could be controlled by the phoP locus since the major regulator plays a key role in bacterial response against numerous stress conditions.”

      (4) L.30: discovers or reveals (?). Also, in l.101.

      As recommended by the reviewer, we have now replaced ‘discovers’ with ‘reveals’ in the Abstract and ‘uncovered’ with ‘revealed’ in the Introduction section of the manuscript.

      (5) L.31: Delete "The most - - derived". It is not obvious what most fundamental means here. I suggest: We find that PhoP-dependent ---involves specific binding of the regulator---PDE gene.

      As recommended by the reviewer, we have modified the statement (duplicated below): “In keeping with these results, we find specific recruitment of the regulator within the promoter region of rv0805 PDE, and absence of phoP or ectopic expression of rv0805 independently accounts for elevated PDE synthesis leading to depletion of intra-mycobacterial cAMP level.”

      (6) L.36: --pathway decreases cAMP level, stress tolerance, and survival of the bacilli.

      As recommended by the reviewer, we have now modified the statement (duplicated below): “Thus, genetic manipulation to inactivate PhoP-Rv0805-cAMP pathway decreases cAMP level, stress tolerance, and intracellular survival of the bacilli.

      (7) L.41: 'keeps encountering" or encounters?

      As suggested by the reviewer, we have replaced ‘keeps encountering’ with ‘encounters’ in the ‘Introduction’ section of the revised manuscript.

      (8) L.61: responds, carries.

      Our apologies for the embarrassing grammatical mistakes. We have rectified these errors in the revised manuscript.

      (9) L.67: you mean burst in synthesis level, not burst of cAMP itself.

      To improve clarity, we have now modified the statement in the revised manuscript (duplicated below): “Agarwal and colleagues had shown that burst in synthesis of bacterial cAMP upon infection of macrophages, improved bacterial survival by interfering with host signalling pathways (Agarwal et al., 2009)”

      Reference

      Agarwal N, Lamichhane G, Gupta R, Nolan S, Bishai WR (2009) Cyclic AMP intoxication of macrophages by a Mycobacterium tuberculosis adenylate cyclase. Nature 460: 98-102

      (10) L.77: Change Off to Of.

      We are sorry for the inaccuracy. The suggested change has been made to the text.

      (11) L.83: Did not discuss "degradation" earlier.

      Following reviewer’s recommendation, we have now modified the statement in the revised manuscript (duplicated below).

      “Together, these results strongly suggest that a balance between cAMP synthesis by adenylate cyclases and cAMP degradation by phosphodiesterases contributes to rapid adaptive response of mycobacteria in a hostile intracellular environment (Johnson and McDonough, 2018; McDonough and Rodriguez, 2011).”

      Reference

      Johnson RM, McDonough KA (2018) Cyclic nucleotide signaling in Mycobacterium tuberculosis: an expanding repertoire. Pathog Dis 76 (5)

      McDonough KA, Rodriguez A (2011) The myriad roles of cyclic AMP in microbial pathogens: from signal to sword. Nature reviews Microbiology 10: 27-38

      (12) L.95: Isn't PhoPR a two-component signal transduction system, the terminology that is more specific than a two-protein regulatory system?

      As recommended by the reviewer, we have replaced “two protein regulatory system” with more specific “two-component signal transduction system” in the revised manuscript.

      (13) L.124: check-point prevents things from happening. Here the mechanism you found allows growth and survival.

      We agree. As recommended by the reviewer, we have now modified the sentence in the revised manuscript (duplicated below).

      “Together, the newly identified mechanism of regulation of cAMP level allows intraphagosomal survival and growth program of mycobacteria.”

      (14) L.132: why not say directly-"---under normal, and NO and acid stress conditions (Fig. 1A).

      As recommended by the reviewer, we have now deleted the first part of the sentence and directly stated that “we compared cAMP levels………. under normal, NO and acidic stress conditions” (duplicated below).

      “We compared cAMP levels of WT and phoPR-KO (lacking both phoP and phoR), grown under normal, NO stress and acid stress conditions (Fig. 1A).”

      (15) L.134: The complementation is quite variable. Also true in Fig. 2A. If no simple answer, you can say- cAMP values increased in complemented cells, although to a variable extent, for reasons unknown.

      We agree with the reviewer. We have now incorporated new text in the ‘Results’ section of the revised manuscript (duplicated below):

      “A higher cAMP level in the complemented strain under NO stress is possibly attributable to reproducibly higher phoP expression in the complemented mutant under specific stress conditions (Khan et al., 2022).”

      (16) L.154: You rather not say "conclude" and "most likely" at the same time. How about replacing "we conclude" with suggests? In that case, no need to say "most likely". Also, in l.306-7 & l.322-3.

      We thank the reviewer for these suggestions. We have now modified the statements in the revised manuscript (duplicated below).

      “We suggest that lower cAMP level of the mutant is not due to its higher efficacy of cAMP secretion.”

      Following reviewer’s recommendation, we have incorporated similar changes in two other places of the ‘Results’ section of the revised manuscript.

      (17) L.161: introduce both the acronyms here and not in l.162.

      Following reviewer’s recommendation, we have made the suggested changes.

      (18) L.164: Second, (to be in line with First).

      We have made the suggested change.

      (19). Fig. 2C: There are no black and white bars. This is an important figure because the results appear in the abstract. The signal change from pH 7 to 4.5 is not much. An independent approach would have been desirable. If it were E. coli, I would have suggested beta-gal assay or in vivo footprints. Is a PhoP binding site recognizable in the promoter region of rv0805?

      We apologize for the inaccuracy. We have corrected it in the revised manuscript. Also, we have now carried out DNA binding assays, and included the EMSA data of rv0805 upstream regulatory region binding to phosphorylated PhoP (P~PhoP) as a supplemental figure (Figure 2-figure supplement 1A-B). In this figure, we have also incorporated our results on the likely PhoP binding site within rv0805up. The new figure, figure caption and the relevant results have been adjusted accordingly in the revised manuscript.

      (20) L.209: ORFs; also delete "of growth" from the sentence.

      The suggested changes were made to the text.

      (21) L.213: Delete Importantly and change "failed to" to 'did not' (since you did not motivate the expectation earlier, it is better to state the results in an unbiased way).

      As recommended by the reviewer, both changes were included in the revised manuscript.

      (22) L.217: The requirement of PhoR is a new result - why say "confirm". Change it to indicate. Also, delete "indeed" here and from L.233.

      As recommended by the reviewer, both changes were included in the revised manuscript.

      (23) L.224: Are the results in Fig 3-S1A under inducing conditions?

      The results shown in Fig 3-S1A are not under inducing conditions of expression. For better clarity, we have modified the sentence describing Figure 3-figure supplement 1A (duplicated below).

      “rv0805 ORF was cloned within the multicloning site of integrative pSTki (Parikh et al., 2013) between EcoRI and HindIII sites under the control of Pmyc1tetO promoter, and expression of rv0805 under non-inducing condition was verified by determining the mRNA level (Figure 3 - figure supplement 1A).

      Reference:

      Parikh et al (2013) Development of a new generation of vectors for gene expression, gene replacement, and protein-protein interaction studies in mycobacteria. Applied and environmental microbiology 79: 1718-1729

      (24) L.225: ---cAMP level. Add (Fig. 3C) at the end of the next sentence.

      As recommended by the reviewer, both the suggested changes were made to the revised text.

      (25) L.231: Delete "Most importantly"- you didn't specify what are other less important results.

      We agree. We have now deleted “most importantly” from the sentence in the revised text.

      (26) L.243 & 254: Change homeostasis to level? Here you are showing mechanisms that can change cAMP level. Homeostasis here would mean how fluctuations in cAMP level are adjusted, usually requiring negative feedback.

      As recommended by the reviewer, ‘homeostasis’ was replaced with ‘level’ in both places.

      (27) L.256: stress response or stress? Also, in l.272

      We are sorry for the inaccuracy. We have corrected these errors in the revised version of the manuscript.

      (28) L.259: Change "maintenance of homeostasis" to 'repressing the rv0805 PDE gene'. It is safer to use a fact-based title. In this section, direct measurement of rv0805 mRNA, and/or cAMP levels in different genetic backgrounds seem desirable.

      We agree. As recommended by the reviewer, we have modified the title of the ‘Results’ section in the revised manuscript (duplicated below).

      “PhoP contributes to mycobacterial stress tolerance and intracellular survival by repressing the rv0805 PDE expression.”

      Please note that direct measurements of rv0805 mRNA and cAMP levels are part of Fig. 3 and Figure 3- figure supplement 1A, respectively.

      (29) Fig, 4A: White and grey symbols are not easily discriminated without zooming. Use color for phoPR-KO.

      We agree. We have now indicated the phoPR-KO in blue in the revised Fig. 4.

      (30) L.264: Delete remarkable or explain what is so remarkable. Aren't the results expected- the PDE level would go up in both cases. Direct measurement of PDE /cAMP levels would take the mystery out of the results.

      As recommended by the reviewer, we have deleted ‘remarkably’ in the revised text. We have measured cAMP and PDE expression levels of the four strains in Fig. 3 and Figure 3-figure supplement 1.

      (31) L.273: --suggesting a role of ---

      We have modified this sentence in the revised version of the manuscript (duplicated below).

      “A previous study had reported that phoP-deleted mutant strain was more sensitive to Cumene Hydrogen Peroxide (CHP), suggesting a role of PhoP in regulating mycobacterial stress response to oxidative stress (Walters et al., 2006).”

      Reference:

      Walters et al. (2006) The Mycobacterium tuberculosis PhoPR two-component system regulates genes essential for virulence and complex lipid biosynthesis. Mol Microbiol 60: 312-330

      (32) L.275: Delete "transcriptome". CHP sensitivity alone doesn't speak for transcriptome.

      As suggested by the reviewer, we have deleted “transcriptome”. Also, please see our response to the previous comment (above).

      (33) Fig. 4D and E: % Colocalization in the Merge panels is not much different among the four strains tested (to an untrained eye). Can the results be explained to readers not used to in vivo studies?

      As recommended by the reviewer, we have now incorporated new text to explain the in vivo experiment (duplicated below).

      “In this assay, WT-H37Rv inhibits phagosome maturation, whereas phagosomes with phoPR-KO mature into phagolysosomes (Anil Kumar et al., 2016).”

      Further, for better clarity of the results shown in Fig. 4D, we have (a) increased size of the figure to highlight the difference in the ‘merge’ panel; (b) included “white arrowheads” in the merge panels of Fig. 4D to indicate auramine labeled mycobacteria, which either have inhibited or facilitated trafficking into lysosomes, and finally (c) incorporated method used to calculate percent co-localization in greater details in the ‘Material and Methods’ section of the revised manuscript.

      Reference

      Anil Kumar et al. (2016) EspR-dependent ESAT-6 secretion of Mycobacterium tuberculosis requires the presence of virulence regulator PhoP. J Biol Chem. 291, 19018-19030

      (34) L.275-6: Delete "next" (also in l.347) and "Note that". In this paragraph, I was expecting some explanation on how phoPR-KO and WT-Rv0805 are behaving similarly. Even if the reason is not known, it should be mentioned.

      The suggested changes have been made to the text. Also, as recommended by the reviewer, we have included the following text in the revised manuscript (duplicated below):

      “Together, these results reveal similar behaviour of phoPR-KO, and WT-Rv0805 by demonstrating a comparably higher susceptibility of these strains to acidic pH and oxidative stress relative to WT bacteria and indicate a link between intra-mycobacterial cAMP level and bacterial stress response. Collectively, these data suggest that at least one of the mechanisms by which PhoP contributes to global stress response is attributable to maintenance of cAMP level.”

      (35) L.281: ---WT and indicate a link between cAMP level and stress response in mycobacteria. (No mention of homeostasis).

      The suggested change has been made to the revised text. Please see above our response to point # 34.

      (36) L.288, 290: No Thus and no clearly.

      Both the suggested changes have been made to the text.

      (37) L.297: Can you be more direct and state --is due to reduced cAMP level?

      As recommended by the reviewer, we have now modified the sentence to make it more direct in the revised manuscript (duplicated below):

      “Together, our findings facilitate an integrated view of our results, suggesting that higher susceptibility of WT-Rv0805 to stress conditions, is attributable to its reduced cAMP level.”

      (38) L.307: May delete "most likely----homeostasis". cAMP is not discussed here. The same deletion is desired in l.324.

      We agree. As recommended by the reviewer, we have now modified the relevant texts in the revised manuscript. These are duplicated below.

      “From these results, we suggest that ectopic expression of rv0805 impacts phagosome maturation arguing in favour of a role of PhoP in influencing phagosome-lysosome fusion in macrophages.”

      “Thus, we suggest that one of the reasons which accounts for an attenuated phenotype of phoPR-KO in both cellular and animal models is attributable to PhoP-dependent repression of rv0805 PDE activity, which controls mycobacterial cAMP level.”

      (39) L.342: cAMP level is regulated remains---

      The suggested change has been made to the revised text (duplicated below):

      “Although many bacterial pathogens modulate host cell cAMP level as a common strategy, the mechanism of regulation of mycobacterial cAMP level remains unknown.”

      (40) L.373: tone down "most fundamental". It is not obvious what is so profound about a stress-response system that depends on PhoP also depends on PhoR. OR justify what is most fundamental about it.

      We agree. Following reviewer’s recommendation, we have modified the text in the revised manuscript (duplicated below):

      “In keeping with these results, we find that PhoP-dependent rv0805 expression requires PhoR (Figs. 3A-B), the cognate kinase which activates PhoP in a signal-dependent manner (Gupta et al., 2006; Singh et al., 2023).”

      References:

      Gupta et al. (2006) Transcriptional autoregulation by Mycobacterium tuberculosis PhoP involves recognition of novel direct repeat sequences in the regulatory region of the promoter. FEBS Letters 580, 5328-5338.

      Singh et al. (2023) Dual functioning by the PhoR sensor is a key determinant to Mycobacterium tuberculosis virulence. PLoS Genetics 19(12): e1011070.

      (41) L.395: delete correspondingly (?)

      The suggested change has been made to the text.

      (42) L.396: Delete "appear to" and "somewhat". The uncertainty is already implied in "suggest". The evidence that ectopic expression of rv0805 is functionally equivalent to phoP deletion is quite clear in this paper and not saying that clearly is confusing.

      We agree with the reviewer. The suggested changes have been made to the revised text (duplicated below):

      “Thus, our results suggest that ectopic expression of rv0805 is functionally equivalent to deletion of the phoP locus.”

      (43) L.401: --over-expressing bacilli, induction level of rv0805 expression was significantly different in Matange et al and our studies. The next sentence is also very wordy.

      We have made changes to the text to address the reviewer’s concern. Also, the next sentence has been rewritten (duplicated below).

      “Although both studies were performed with rv0805 over-expressing bacilli, the fact that important differences in the expression of PDEs, in this study (Matange et al., 2013) and in our assays - yielding significantly different levels of rv0805 expression - most likely account for this discrepancy. While we cannot rule out the possibility of cleavage of other cyclic nucleotides by Rv0805 (Keppetipola & Shuman, 2008; Shenoy et al., 2007; Shenoy et al., 2005), consistent with a previous study our results correlate rv0805 expression with intra-mycobacterial cAMP level (Agarwal et al., 2009).”

      References:

      Matange et al. (2013) Overexpression of the Rv0805 phosphodiesterase elicits a cAMP-independent transcriptional response. Tuberculosis (Edinb) 93: 492-500.

      Keppetipola N, Shuman S (2008) A phosphate-binding histidine of binuclear metallophosphodiesterase enzymes is a determinant of 2',3'-cyclic nucleotide phosphodiesterase activity. J Biol Chem 283: 30942-30949

      Shenoy et al. (2007) Structural and biochemical analysis of the Rv0805 cyclic nucleotide phosphodiesterase from Mycobacterium tuberculosis. Journal of molecular biology 365: 211-225

      Shenoy et al. (2005) The Rv0805 gene from Mycobacterium tuberculosis encodes a 3',5'-cyclic nucleotide phosphodiesterase: biochemical and mutational analysis. Biochemistry 44: 15695-15704

      Agarwal N, Lamichhane G, Gupta R, Nolan S, Bishai WR (2009) Cyclic AMP intoxication of macrophages by a Mycobacterium tuberculosis adenylate cyclase. Nature 460: 98-102

      (44) L.409: To avoid saying "conclude" and "most likely" at the same time, can you start the sentence thus: 'We infer that Pho-----rv0805 is a---.

      We agree. We have made suggested changes to the text. The modified sentence is duplicated below:

      “We infer that PhoP-dependent regulation of Rv0805 is a critical regulator of intra-mycobacterial cAMP level.”

      (45) L.424. Delete "According to this model". In the preceding sentence, the subject is results, not model. This whole paragraph needs to be rewritten in fewer lines. The shorter the summary statement, the greater would be its impact (less is more here). I would delete the red circles from the figure- it appears that in the repressed state, you are making more products. Replace the circles with an arrow. The legend could be "Increased cAMP level and effective stress response" and "Decreased cAMP---and reduced---.

      We thank the reviewer for these suggestions. Following reviewer’s recommendations, we have made numerous changes and rewritten the paragraph in the revised manuscript (duplicated below):

      “In summary, upon sensing low acidic pH as a signal PhoR activates PhoP, P~PhoP binds to rv0805 upstream regulatory region and functions as a specific repressor of Rv0805. Therefore, we observed (a) a reproducibly lower level of cAMP in phoPR-KO relative to WT-H37Rv, (b) a significantly reduced expression of rv0805 in WT-H37Rv, grown under acidic pH relative to normal conditions, and (c) comparable cAMP levels in phoPR-KO and WT-Rv0805. This is why the two strains remain ineffective to mount an appropriate stress response, most likely due to their inability to coordinate regulation of gene expression because of dysregulation of intra-mycobacterial cAMP level. However, without uncoupling regulatory control of PhoPR and rv0805 expression, we cannot confirm that dysregulation of cAMP level accounts for virulence attenuation of phoPR-KO. Given the fact that rv0805-depleted M. tuberculosis is growth attenuated in vivo (McDowell et al., 2023), paradoxically ectopic expression of rv0805 leads to dysregulated metabolic adaptation, thereby resulting in reduced stress tolerance and intracellular survival.”

      Also, the suggested changes have been incorporated in Fig. 6 and the figure caption.

      Reference

      McDowell JR, Bai G, Lasek-Nesselquist E, Eisele LE, Wu Y, Hurteau G, Johnson R, Bai Y, Chen Y, Chan J et al (2023) Mycobacterial phosphodiesterase Rv0805 is a virulence determinant and its cyclic nucleotide hydrolytic activity is required for propionate detoxification. Mol Microbiol 119: 401-422

      (46) L.458 & 500: ---was used to transform.

      Following reviewer’s recommendation, the suggested changes were made to the text in the Materials and Methods section of the revised manuscript.

      (47) L.460: --- antibiotics plates.

      Both suggested changes were made to the text.

      (48) L.466-7: --they were transferred-pH 4.5) and grown for further-

      We thank the reviewer for these suggestions. The suggested changes were made to the text.

      (49) L.486: ---full-length ORFs of interest were---

      The suggested changes were incorporated in the revised manuscript.

      (50) L.497: The RNAs were 20 nt long and complementary---

      As recommended by the reviewer, we have modified the text in the revised manuscript (duplicated below).

      “The RNAs were 20 nt long and complementary to the non-template strand of the target gene.”

      Reviewer #2:

      (1) Rephrase this sentence in the abstract: “Because growing evidence connects PhoP with varying stress response, we hypothesized that the level of 3’,5’ cAMP, one of the most widely used second messengers, was regulated by the phoP locus, linking numerous stress responses with cAMP production”.

      As recommended by the reviewer, we have now rewritten the sentence. The modified text is incorporated in the revised manuscript (duplicated below):

      “cAMP is one of the most widely used second messengers, which impacts on a wide range of cellular responses in microbial pathogens including M. tuberculosis. Herein, we hypothesized that intra-mycobacterial cAMP level could be controlled by the phoP locus since the major regulator plays a key role in bacterial responses against numerous stress conditions.”

      Also, please see our response to specific comments #1-3 of Reviewer 1.

      (2) Line 134: please describe the complementation strain features as it is mentioned for the first time (plasmid, copy number, promoter etc.) in the manuscript. Especially under NO stress what could be the authors' justification regarding the high cAMP concentration in the complementation strain?

      As recommended by the reviewer, the details of construction of the complemented strain have been incorporated in the ‘Materials and Methods’ section of the revised manuscript (duplicated below):

      “To complement phoPR expression, pSM607 containing a 3.6- kb DNA fragment of M. tuberculosis phoPR including 200-bp phoP promoter region, a hygromycin resistance cassette, attP site and the gene encoding phage L5 integrase, as detailed earlier (Walters et al., 2006) was used to transform phoPR mutant to integrate at the L5 attB site.”

      To address the reviewer’s other concern, we have now included the following sentence in the ‘Results’ section of the revised manuscript (duplicated below):

      “A higher cAMP level in the complemented strain under NO stress is possibly attributable to reproducibly higher phoP expression in the complemented mutant under specific stress condition (Khan et al., 2022).”

      Reference:

      Khan et al. (2022) Convergence of two global regulators to coordinate expression of essential virulence determinants of Mycobacterium tuberculosis. eLife 2022, 11:e80965.

      (3) In Figure 1C, it is a bit confusing to see the numbers 1,2,3 and 4 and nothing is referred to these numbers in the figure legend so it's better to remove them.

      We agree with the reviewer. We have now removed the lane numbers from the figure (Fig. 1C) in the revised manuscript.

      (4) Line 852: rephrase it "insignificantly different".

      The suggested change has been made to the text. The modified text is incorporated in the manuscript (duplicated below):

      “Note that the difference in expression levels of rv0805 between WT and phoPR-KO was significant (p<0.01), whereas the fold difference in mRNA level between WT and the complemented mutant (Compl.) remains nonsignificant (not indicated).”

      (5) Line198-200: There are no open/black bars, they all are coloured bars. Correct the same. The significance test should be done for the same gene (suppose rv0805 up) in different pH conditions. Right now, it is not revealing anything and misleading.

      We apologize for the inaccuracy. We have now rectified the error. As recommended by the reviewer, Fig. 4C was modified, and the significance tests were carried out between samples involving identical promoter enrichments under different pH conditions. The modified figure, figure legend, and the relevant results have been adjusted accordingly in the revised manuscript.

      (6) Line 213: Is there any difference between this complementation strain (phoPR-KO:: phoPphoR with the one used in Figure 1A, 1B, and 2A? If yes, then please describe it.

      The same complemented mutant strain, which has been described in the ‘Materials and Methods’ section of the revised manuscript, was used in the experiments described in Fig. 1A, Fig.1B and Fig. 2A.

      (7) Line 223: Please mention the copy number and promoter of the vector construct.

      As recommended by the reviewer, we have now mentioned the promoter of the vector and incorporated new text with regard to copy number of the expression vector in the revised manuscript (duplicated below).

      “Although copy number of episomal vectors with pAl5000 origin of replication (oriM) have been reported to be 3 by Southern hybridization (Ranes et al, 1990), in this case wild-type and mutant Rv0805 proteins were expressed from single-copy chromosomal integrants (Parikh et al., 2013).”

      References

      Ranes et al., (1990) Functional analysis of pAL5000, a plasmid from Mycobacterium fortuitum: construction of a "mini" mycobacterium-Escherichia coli shuttle vector. J Bacteriol 172: 2793-2797

      Parikh et al., (2013) Development of a new generation of vectors for gene expression, gene replacement, and protein-protein interaction studies in mycobacteria. Applied and environmental microbiology 79: 1718-1729

      (8) Figure 3 - Figure Supplement 1: not sure why the authors measured mRNA levels of rv1357 and rv2387? These genes were not overexpressed!

      The mRNA levels of rv1357 and rv2387 were measured to show that overexpression of either the wild-type or mutant Rv0805 did not influence expression of other PDEs like Rv1357 and Rv2387. We have now mentioned it explicitly in the revised manuscript (duplicated below).

      “In contrast, other PDE encoding genes (rv1357 and rv2387), under identical conditions, demonstrate comparable expression levels in WT-H37Rv and rv0805 over-expressing strains.”

      (9) Line 234: Wrong interpretation it should be PDE mRNA levels in WT-Rv0805 and WT-Rv0805M.

      As recommended by the reviewer, we have now modified the statement to improve clarity (duplicated below).

      “The corresponding mRNA levels of PDEs (wild-type and the mutant) are over-expressed approximately 4.5-6 -fold relative to the genomic rv0805 level of WT-H37Rv (Figure 3-figure supplement 1A).”

      (10) Line 237: Remove the sentence "Thus, we conclude......identical expression strategy", you have already talked about why phosphodiesterase activity is crucial for cAMP concentration and it is well understood.

      Following reviewer’s recommendation, we have now removed the sentence from the revised manuscript.

      (11) Figure 3E: Authors should comment on why the cAMP concentration is not significantly changed even though the mRNA level changes are drastic (~90%). How do you correlate that? Is it because of other PDEs?

      We agree. As suggested by the reviewer, we have now incorporated new text in the revised manuscript (duplicated below).

      “We speculate that effective knocking down of phoP or rv0805 is not truly reflected in the extent of variation of cAMP levels possibly due to the presence of numerous other mycobacterial PDEs.”

      (12) Line 505,506: Is it the translation start site or the transcription start site? Because mRNA level changes are reported.

      It is the translational start sites, and gene-specific small guide RNAs were designed to inhibit mRNA expression.

      (13) Line 292: There is a difference between red and green bars. Authors should do statistical analysis and then comment on whether overexpression of WT and mutant pde are different or similar, to me they are different; also, explain why the WT-Rv0805 strain is different than the phoPR-KO strain in the context of cell wall metabolism.

      As recommended by the reviewer, we have now included statistical significance of the data in the revised version, and modified the text accordingly in the manuscript.

      Also, we included text explaining why WT-Rv0805 is different compared to phoPR-KO strain in the context of cell wall metabolism (duplicated below).

      “Together, these results suggest that both strains expressing wild type or mutant PDEs share a largely similar cell-wall properties and are consistent with (a) a recent study reporting no significant effect of cAMP dysregulation on mycobacterial cell wall structure/permeability (Wong et al., 2023), and (b) role of PhoP in cell wall composition and complex lipid biosynthesis (Walters et al., 2006; Asensio et al., 2006; Goyal et al., 2011).”

      References:

      Wong et al. (2023) Cyclic AMP is a critical mediator of intrinsic drug resistance and fatty acid metabolism in M. tuberculosis. eLife 2023; 12: e81177

      Walters et al. (2006) The Mycobacterium tuberculosis PhoPR two-component system regulates genes essential for virulence and complex lipid biosynthesis. Mol Microbiol 60: 312-330

      Asensio et al. (2006) The Virulence-associated Two-component PhoP-PhoR System Controls the Biosynthesis of Polyketide-derived Lipids in Mycobacterium tuberculosis. J Biol Chem 281: 1313-1316.

      Goyal et al. (2011) Phosphorylation of PhoP protein plays direct regulatory role in lipid biosynthesis of Mycobacterium tuberculosis. J Biol Chem 286: 45197-45208

      (14) Line 299-303: Authors should explain how the colocalization % are calculated. Also, in the figure 4D merge panel please highlight the difference.

      As suggested by the reviewer, we have now explained the methodology used to calculate percent colocalization in greater details. Also, we have modified Figure 4D to highlight the difference between samples shown in merge panel. Please see our response to comment # 33 from the Reviewer 1.

      (15) General comment: There are multiple instances where writing needs to be improved.

      We are sorry for the inaccuracies. We have now done thorough editing of the manuscript and made numerous corrections throughout.

    1. Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary

      The authors have made simultaneous recordings of the responses of large numbers of neurons from the primary visual cortex of macaque monkeys using optical two-photon imaging of calcium signals from the superficial layers of the cortex. Recordings were made to compare the responses of the cortical neurons under normal binocular viewing of a flat screen with both eyes open and monocular viewing of the same screen with one eye's view blocked by a translucent filter. The screen displayed visual stimuli comprising small contrast patches of Gabor function distributions of luminance, a stimulus that is known to excite cortical neurons.

      Strengths

      This is an important data set, given the large number of neurons recorded. The authors present a simple model to explain binocular combination of neuronal signals from the right and left eyes. The work advances the use of two-photon imaging in the cerebral neocortex. The research design adds valuable information to our understanding of the organization of binocular vision in macaque monkeys, which are the only realistic animal model of human vision for the study of binocular interactions.

      Limitations and Weaknesses

      (1) Given that these recordings are made optically, these results reflect primarily activations of neurons in the superficial layers of the cortex. This limitation arises from the usual constraints (depth of cortex, degree of myelination) on optical imaging in the macaque cortex. This means that the sample of neurons forming this data set is not fully representative of the population of binocular neurons within the visual cortex. This limitation is important in comparing the outcome of these experiments with the results from other studies of binocular combination, which have used single-electrode recording. Electrode recording will result in a sample of neurons that is drawn from many layers of the cortex, rather than just the superficial layers, noting that electrode recordings also carry different risks of sampling bias.

      (2) Single neuron recording of binocular neurons in the primary visual cortex has shown that these neurons often have some spontaneous activity. Assessment of this spontaneous level of firing is important for accurate model fitting [1]. The present imaging approach works exclusively with differential measurements of neuronal signals, so assessment of the level of spontaneous activity is not feasible.

      (3) The arrangements for visual stimulation and comparison of binocular and monocular responses mean that the stereoscopic disparity of the binocular stimuli is always at zero or close to zero. The consequence is that the experimental design does not test the cortical response over a range of different binocular depths.

      The animal's fixation point is in the centre of a single display that is viewed binocularly. The fixation point is, by definition, at zero disparity.. Provided that the animals accurately converged their eyes on the binocular fixation point, then the disparity of the visual stimuli across the whole display will always be at or close to zero. However, we already know from earlier work that neurons in the visual cortex exhibit a range of selectivity for binocular disparity. Some neurons have their peak response at non-zero disparities, representing binocular depths nearer than the fixation depth or beyond it.

      There are also other neurons whose response is maximally suppressed by disparities at the depth of the fixation point (so-called Tuned Inhibitory [TI] neurons). The simple model and analysis presented in the paper for the summation of monocular responses to predict binocular responses will perform adequately for neurons that are tuned to zero disparity, so-called tuned excitatory neurons [TE], but is necessarily compromised when applied to neurons that have other, different tuning profiles for binocular disparity. Specifically, when neurons are stimulated binocularly with a non-preferred disparity, the binocular response may be lower than the monocular response [2, 3]. The same limitation applies to another recent paper [4].

      This more realistic view of binocular responses needs to be considered further to gain a full picture of the operation of the visual cortex in responding to binocular depth

      Citations

      1. Prince, S.J.D., Pointon, A.D., Cumming, B.G., and Parker, A.J., (2002). Quantitative analysis of the responses of V1 neurons to horizontal disparity in dynamic random-dot stereograms. Journal of Neurophysiology, 87: 191-208.

      2. Prince, S.J.D., Cumming, B.G., and Parker, A.J., (2002). Range and mechanism of encoding of horizontal disparity in macaque V1. Journal of Neurophysiology, 87: 209-221.

      3. Poggio, G.F. and Fischer, B., (1977). Binocular interaction and depth sensitivity in striate and prestriate cortex of behaving rhesus monkey. Journal of Neurophysiology, 40: 1392-1405 doi 10.1152/jn.1977.40.6.1392.

      4. B. A. Mitchell, K. Dougherty, J. A. Westerberg, B. M. Carlson, L. Daumail, A. Maier, et al. (2022) Stimulating both eyes with matching stimuli enhances V1 responses.<br /> iScience 2022 Vol. 25 Issue 5 DOI: 10.1016/j.isci.2022.104182

    1. 16. M. B. Miller, B. L. Bassler, Annu. Rev. Microbiol. 55, 165 (2001).

      Miller and Bassler described quorum sensing in bacteria and other microorganisms to coordinate activity. The key takeaway of the paper is quorum sensing is dependent upon population density to regulate gene expression.

    1. It is essential that building works are carefully planned in advance

      It is essential that building works are carefully planned in advance and follow a specific infection control risk assessment policy.

      Talento AF, Fitzgerald M, Redington B, O'Sullivan N, Fenelon L, Rogers TR. Prevention of healthcare-associated invasive aspergillosis during hospital construction/renovation works. J Hosp Infect. 2019 Sep;103(1):1-12.

      Mareković I. What's New in Prevention of Invasive Fungal Diseases during Hospital Construction and Renovation Work: An Overview. J Fungi (Basel). 2023 Jan 23;9(2):151.

    1. Note: This response was posted by the corresponding author to Review Commons. The content has not been altered except for formatting.

      Learn more at Review Commons


      Reply to the reviewers

      Manuscript number: RC-2024-02352

      Corresponding author(s): Elise, Belaidi

      1. General Statements

      We would like to thank the reviewers for their constructive suggestions and comments. We hope that the “point by point answer” and the revision plan proposed below will convince the reviewers and the editor.

      We thank the reviewer 1 for his/her comments. We would like to specify that the involvement of HIF-1 in IH-induced mitochondrial remodeling has indeed been initiated by RNA-seq analysis and confirmed in a cell-based model as well as in wild-type and HIF-1a+/- heterozygous mice subjected to intermittent hypoxia (IH). In vivo, we originally demonstrated that Metformin reversed IH-induced increase in myocardial infarct size through AMPKa2 and, we proposed that metformin could modify HIF-1 activity. Then, we validated our hypothesis in an in vitro model allowing to demonstrate that Metformin, by increasing HIF-1a phosphorylation decreases its activity. We acknowledge that we used several models and this is the reason why we detailed as much as possible the Materials and Methods section including all models, experimental sets designed and methods details. We hope that the point by point response that we made for the reviewer 1 will increase the clarity of our work and we hope that the new results provided will strengthen the evidences concerning the mechanisms by which metformin can inhibit and modulate the deleterious impact of HIF-1 on IH-induced an increase in myocardial infarct size.

      We thank the reviewer 2 for his/her conclusion highlighting that “our work opens new avenues for exploring the potential effects of metformin as a modulatory of HIF-1𝛂 activity in obstructive sleep apnea syndrome”. We hope that the clarifications and/or justifications brought will convince him/her.<br /> We thank the reviewer 3 for having underlined that “metformin induces HIF-1α phosphorylation, decreases its nuclear localization and subsequently HIF-1 transcriptional activity are very much interesting” and for having highlighting that “our study is convincing”. We hope that the justification and the corrections brought in the point by point answer will convince him/her.

      Alltogether, as underlined by the 3 reviewers, our study is very interesting for translational science in the fields of cardiovascular, respiratory and sleep medicine. We hope that the point by point answer and the revision plan proposed will allow the publication of our article in EMBO Molecular Medicine.

      2. Description of the planned revisions

      • *

      Please find below the revision that we plan to address to answer to the questions of the reviewer 1.


      Figure 1 - it would be helpful to list all of the DEGs (what genes are changed?). Including the expression of HIF-1α and PHD isoforms would be informative. If there is a robust HIF-1α signal, changes in the expression of HIF and PHD isoforms would be anticipated. Fig 1F - with regards to glycolysis and hypoxia pathway analysis, most of the DEGs are not canonical HIF-1α/hypoxia targets.

      Figure 1 aimed at better understanding and manipulate the well-recognized involvement of HIF-1 in response to our specific IH stimulus (Semenza, Physiology 2009; Belaidi, Pharmacol & Ther. 2016). __The results provided by the RNA-seq analysis shows that IH induces cardiac oxidative and metabolic stress which are inter-related with HIF-1 activation. __We did not claim that these genes are HIF-1 targets genes. The RNA seq analysis did not allow to reveal HIF-1a and PHD1-3 transcript as the most dysregulated genes of the panel. In case of publication, bulk data and DEGS will be provided in an online file. We agree with the reviewer that the list of the 40 up and down-regulated genes would be very informative and would increase the value of the paper. Thus, we plan to add the name of the 40 up and down-regulated genes on Figure 1B.

      Figure 5G-I, show cytoplasmic HIF1a as well as nuclear.

      Alternatively, why not use IHC for subcellular localization?

      We think that the comments of the reviewer 1 concern Fig.4G-I and not 5G-I. In this figure, we showed that IH increases nuclear HIF-1____a____ expression compared to N condition and that this IH-effect is abolished in mice treated with Metformin, suggesting that, upon IH, Metformin impacts HIF-1__a __nuclear content and subsequently, its activity. The nuclear localization of HIF-1a is the most relevant mean to indicate its activation. We agree with the reviewer that IHC also allows for the indication of the nuclear localization of HIF-1a. Indeed, we previously performed IHC on nuclear HIF-1a localization and demonstrated that IH increased HIF-1a nuclear localization by IHC that was corroborated by Western-blot (Moulin S, TACD, 2020). Western-blot and IHC are both semi-quantitative techniques with different process of analyses. In this study, we choose Western-blot because we have the material to perform this technique and because IHC is associated with an analysis process (size of a slice, areas to analyze, colorimetry…) that is more complex than the analysis process of Western-blot (densitometry solely).

      While the nuclear localization of HIF-1a is the most relevant mean to indicate its activation; it could be interesting to see that HIF-1a cytosolic content was neither modify by IH nor by Metformin. This would also corroborate the results of the RNA-seq that did not demonstrate any difference in DEGs of HIF-1a or of other members of the HIF family. This would also confirm that Metformin plays a major role on HIF-1 activaty regulation (and not transcription) in the context of IH.

      Thus, we plan to perform a Western-blot of HIF-1a on cytosolic extracts of hearts from mice exposed to N or IH and treated or not with Metformin. These extracts are already available and Western-blot would be performed and replicated in 3 weeks. We could also provide a Western-blot in order to show the purity of our extraction protocol (nucleus vs cytosol).

      Figure 5F, it would be important to show the levels of expression of HIF1a in these experiments. Are there positive and negative controls that the authors could use for HIF21a activity in this experiment?

      In our manuscript, we aimed at demonstrating that Metformin decreases HIF-1 activity in a context of strong HIF-1____a____expression and/or stabilizion those mimics what happens after chronic IH in mice (Belaidi E, Int J Cardiol 2016, Moulin S, Ther Adv Chronic Dis 2020) and in apneic patients (Moulin S, Can J Cardiol 2020). Thus, we used a transfection allowing to overexpress HIF-1a that is one of the best means to increase HIF-1 activity. In the Figure 1 below, HA-HIF-1α-WT Addgene AmpR and 5 HRE GFP AmpR plasmids co-transfection induced a decrease in H9c2 viability and an increase in GFP-positive cells that were not observed in H9c2 transfected with pcDNA 3.1 HA-C AmpR (negative control). __This validates our in vitro model as a good positive control to mimic IH consequences. __ However, we agree with the reviewer that we could add a supplemental figure or a panel demonstrating that our transfection induced an increase in HIF-1a expression. Thus, we will perform a Western-blot targeting HIF-1a on H9c2 transfected with the control plasmid (pcDNA 3.1 HA-C AmpR) or the plasmid allowing the overexpression of HIF-1a (HA-HIF-1α-WT AmpR). This work would be performed in 2 months.

      Moreover, we already improved the lisibility of the Figure 5F to clarify the experimental conditions (table inserted under the graphic); we also completed the Materials and Methods section to specify the plasmid used (modifications are in red in the manuscript).

      Figure to see on the downloaded file.



      Figure 1 : GFP fluorescence in H9c2 cells transfected with pcDNA 3.1 HA-C AmpR (control condition) or HA-HIF-1α-WT AmpR (positive control, overexpression of HIF-1a) and 5 HRE-GFP AmpR plamids and treated with CoCl2 (1mM, 2h); magnification x100.

      • *

      This paragraph concerns only the point 4 of the fifth question.

      In these experiments, as well as subsequent studies, it would be very informative to use a specific AMPK activator e.g. MK-8772, to compare with metformin. It is well known that metformin has a number of other targets in addition to AMPK.

      We agree with the reviewer that metformin has pleiotropic effect. Very interestingly, we demonstrated that the reduced-infarct size is not related to the metabolic systemic effect of metformin since it failed to improve the IH-induced insulin resistance while it improves the answer to insulin in normoxic mice (supplemental Figure S3B). This demonstrates that in our model, the cardioprotective effects of Metformin are independent of a potential systemic effect. Then, we demonstrated that metformin protects the heart against ischemia-reperfusion through AMPK____a____2 activation by using AMPK____a____2KO exposed to IH in which Metformin failed to decrease infarct size (Fig.4N). MK-8772 is not widely used in vivo models. Moreover a recent study indicates that chronic treatment with MK-8772 (14 days 1 month in mice and rats, respectively) induces cardiac hypertrophy characterized by an increase in heart weight (Myers R, Science 2017). In vivo experiments with MK-8772 would be not clinically relevant as the use of metformin that is already used in clinic. However, in order to improve the mechanistic investigation concerning the role of AMPKa2 activation on inhibiting HIF-1 activity, we propose to perform the in vitroexperiments performed in Figure 5 with a specific allosteric small-molecule activator of AMPKa2 such as 991.

      We plan to:

      -Expose H9c2 to CoCl2 and treat them with 991 in order to measure HIF-1a phosphorylation.

      -Transfect H9c2 with our plasmids HA-HIF-1α-WT AmpR and 5 HRE GFP AmpR and treat them or not with 991 in order to measure HIF-1 activity (GFP fluorescence). These experiments would be performed in 2 months.

      __Please find below the revision that we plan to address to answer to the second question of the reviewer 2. __

      • *

      2) The WB images were cut and pasted. Please add the original images

      We acknowledge the reviewer's comment and will address it by submitting a supplementary file containing the uncropped immunoblot images. Since this file already exists, our plan is to standardize it by providing, for each slide (immunoblot), all relevant information pertaining to our experiments, including groups, molecular weight markers, cutting, membrane stripping, and other pertinent details.

      3. Description of the revisions that have already been incorporated in the transferred manuscript

      • *

      __Please find below the answers or the revisions that have already been incorporated in response to the comments of the reviewer 1. Please note that we provided new results and new figures at the discretion of the reviewer, but we are ready to insert them as figures or supplemental figures in a new revised manuscript if the reviewers and the editor think that it would improve our message. __

      Was mitochondrial content in the hearts after IH experiment measured e.g. mtDNA measurements? IH results in mitochondrial dysfunction/reduced mitochondrial content. It would have been good to show mitochondrial dysfunction by doing basic functional experiments (e.g. TMRM/MitoROS imaging etc.) by isolating cardiomyocytes from the N and IH experiments.

      We thank the reviewer for these questions about the mitochondrial function and content. The impact of IH on mitochondrial function has already been demonstrated in heart (Moulin S, Antioxydants 2022, Wei Q, Am J Physiol 2012). __Indeed, we previously showed that mitochondria isolated from hearts of mice exposed to IH had a decrease in maximal respiration in complex I and II that was not observed in HIF-1_a_+/- ____mice (Moulin S, Antioxidants 2022), indicating that HIF-1 is responsible for IH-induced mitochondrial dysfunction. __

      Figure 4 shows that Metformin abolished IH-induced mitochondrial remodeling similar to what we observed in HIF-1a+/-(Figure 2). This means that treating with Metformin or partially deleting the gene encoding for HIF-a induce the same impact on IH. Then, we demonstrated that Metformin can control HIF-1 activation and we concluded that metformin could be cardioprotective through inhibiting HIF-1 activation and subsequent mitochondrial stress and remodeling. In this study, we focused on the effects of Metformin on HIF-1 and we did not aim at directly test the effect of metformin on mitochondrial function. Actually, metformin exhibits biphasic effects on bioenergetics of cardiac tissue depending on the modality of administration (i. e. single injection, time of administration during an ischemia-reperfusion procedure); the dose administered and the tissue studied (i. e. hiPSC-CMs, isolated mitochondria…) (Emelyanova N, Transl Res 2021). But, we collected some data that we would like to submit at the discretion of the reviewer. Using oximetry, we measured maximal respiration in complex 1 and 2 on isolated mitochondria from hearts of mice exposed to N, IH and treated or not with metformin during the exposure__. While we observed that IH decreases maximal respiration in complex 1 and 2, we did not find any effect of metformin on mitochondrial respiration alteration induced by IH (Figure 2A, B). Using spectrofluorometry, we measured the mitochondrial membrane potential using TMRM; __we did not find any modification of membrane potential in IH or Metformin-treated mice (Figure 2C). Because we previously did not observe any impact of IH on mtDNA/gDNA ratio (Figure 2D), we did not test metformin on this parameter.

      To conclude, we think that these results are not directly in the scope of our work but if the reviewer thinks that they deserve to be discussed, we could add them in a supplementary figure.

      Please, see the figure on the dowloaded file

      Figure 2 : Mice were exposed to 21 days of Normoxia (N) or Intermittent Hypoxia (IH) (1-min cycle of FiO2 5%-21%) and treated with vehicle (Vh, CmCNa 0.01%, 0,1ml.10g-1) or Metformin (Met, 300mg.kg-1.d-1). (A, B) Mitochondrial function __was measured by oximetry with sequential addition of substrate (state 2), ADP (200mM, state 3, maximal respiration) and oligomycin (12.5 mM, state 4) ; quantification of O2 consumption for NADH-linked mitochondrial respiration (complex I-glutamate-malate, GM, 20mM) (A), and for FADH2-linked mitochondrial respiration (complex II-succinate, S, 5mM, in presence of complex I inhibition by rotenone, 6.25mM) (B) (n=8). (C) Mitochondrial membrane potential measured by spectrofluorometry after Tetramethylrhodamine Methyl Ester (TMRM, 0.2mM) in presence of GM (basal condition), maximal respiration (ADP) and uncoupling condition Carbonyl cyanide 4-(trifluoromethoxy)phenylhydrazone, FCCP, 3mM); fluorescence intensity is expressed relative to fuorescence at baseline (before GM) (n=8). (D__) Mitochondrial content assessed by the expression of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA, COX1) relative to genomic DNA (gDNA, ApoB) measured after PCR (n=6); *p

      Fig 2A-D - CoCl2 is not a good model to mimic hypoxia due its effect on disrupting iron homeostasis in cells, which can mean that some of the effects are due to changes in iron levels and not HIF stabilisation.

      The capacity of CoCl2 to chelate iron is the main property of CoCl2 that we used in order to stabilize HIF-1____a____. Actually, prolyl-4-hydroxylases need Fe2+ to hydroxylate HIF-1____a____ and induce its degradation. __Then, intermittent hypoxia (IH) is characterized by very rapid changes in PO2. This stimulus was designed to reproduce sleep apnea syndrome and its associated disorders (i. e. insulin-resistance, hypertension, increase in myocardial infarct size). This model was firstly developed and validated in rodents (Dematteis M, ILARJ 2008, Belaidi E, Eur Resp Rev 2022, Harki , Eur Resp J 2022). Compelling evidence indicate that the involvement of HIF-1 in IH-deleterious consequences is related to the repetitive phases of oxygenation and especially to IH-induced oxidative stress (Semenza Physiology 2009, Belaidi Pharmacol. & Ther 2016). In order to increase the level of mechanistic insights on HIF-1, we next attempted to optimize in vitro models. A device was developed by Minoves et al. (Minoves M, Am J Physiol, 2017) to expose endothelial and cancer cells to IH. __However, as illustrated below, this device does not mimic efficient rapid hypoxia-reoxygenation cycles able to induce cardiac cell death (Figure 3A). However, CoCl2 decreases H9C2 viability by 60% (Figure 3B) that is associated with a sustained stabilization of HIF-1____a (Figure 3C,D). Thus, we choose this in vitro model as it replicates cardiac cell death and HIF-1_a_overexpression or stabilization which we similarly observe in our in vivo model and in apneic patients (Moulin S, Can J Cardiol 2020).

      Please see the figure on the dowloaded file

      Figure 3 : (A-B) Cell viability measured by 3-(4,5-dimethylthiazol-2-yl)-2,5-diphenyl-2H- tetrazolium bromide (MTT) of H9c2 cells exposed to 6 hours (h) of repetitive cycles of Intermittent hypoxia (2 minutes (min) PO2 16% - 2 min PO2 2%) (n=3) (A) or treated with CoCl2 (1mM, 2h) (n=6) (B). (C-D), __quantification of __total ____HIF-1____𝛂 expression relative to tubulin (C) and representative image of Wetsern-blot (D) (n=2-3); *p****p*

      Fig. 2K, change in BNIP3 expression is modest, but change in Parkin is very dramatic. BNIP3 is a HIF-1α target but Parkin is not, so it is plausible that mitophagy could be occurring through a HIF-1α independent mechanism.

      Fig. 2K is a representative panel of 2-3 independent experiments. The quantification reported in Figures 2I and 2J demonstrated a significant decrease in BNIP3 and Parkin expressions in HIF-1a heterozygous mice exposed to Intermittent Hypoxia (IH) compared to HIF-1a+/+ mice exposed to IH. While we acknowledge that only BNIP3 is a direct target of HIF-1, the role of HIF-1 in IH-induced auto/mitophagy is demonstrated by our experiments performed in HIF-1____a____heterozygous mice. This shows an important role for HIF-1 without excluding any impact of HIF-1a independent mechanisms.

      What are we meant to be looking at in Fig 2L?

      Figure 2L aims at illustrating mitochondrial remodeling under IH. Stars indicate that mitochondria have abnormal fate in IH conditions and arrows point autophagosomal membrane and formation. This figure was magnified to be clearer (please see new Figure 2L).

      Figure 3B-C, the reduction in pT172 on AMPK is modest. It would be good to include pACC as a downstream target for AMPK.

      As recommended by the reviewer, we inserted in the manuscript the quantification of 79Ser-P-ACC/ACC western-blot as well as a representative image of the Western-blot (See new Figure 3). We also modified the legend of the figure. 79Ser-P-ACC is an important target of AMPK; however, in our experimental conditions, its phosphorylation is not associated to the decrease in AMPK phosphorylation. This could be explained by many points. First, Metformin was administered every day and hearts were harvested 24 hours later after the last administration. Most studies demonstrating a modification of AMPK and ACC phosphorylation are experiments performed in vitro or directly (less than 1 hour) after a single dose of Metformin administration. In the context of myocardial ischemia-reperfusion, Yin et al. showed an increase in P-AMPK/AMPK directly after Metformin treatment without showing any data on P-ACC/ACC (Yin M; Am J Physiol 2011); similar data were published in models of chronic cardiac diseases (Soraya H, Eur J Pharmacol, Gundewar S, Circ Res 2009). Second, in line with the previous explanation, the lack of effect of metformin on P-AMPK and/or P-ACC in rodent models could be explained by its rapid distribution (Sheleme T Clin Pharmacokinetics of Metformin 2021) and its short half-life that is around 3.7 hours in mice (Junien N, Arch Int Pharmacodyn Ther 1979).

      To conclude, since we performed all our analysis 24h after the last treatment and exposure to hypoxia, we argue that the slight but significative decrease in AMPK phosphorylation that we observed in our study highlight a robust impact of chronic IH. However, this would be elegant to confirm this result by measuring AMPK through its phosphorylation capacity (Cool B, Cell Metab 2006, Ducommun S, Am J Physiol 2014). We already sent hearts from mice exposed to Normoxia or Intermittent Hypoxia to Luc Bertrand’s lab (IREC, Belgium) where they used to perform this assay.

      Fig. E-G, show data for mice treated with vehicle.

      In Figure 4 I-J­­, we demonstrated that Metformin significantly decreases infract size in IH condition only and this validates our main hypothesis regarding the specific beneficial effect of this drug in the context of chronic IH. __In order to show that the cardioprotective effect of Metformin is relative to AMPKa2 activation, we first showed that 79Ser-PACC/ACC, one of the main downstream targets of AMPKa2 was increased (Fig. E-G). We did not find it necessary to does not exhibit cardioprotective effects. However, as shown in Figure 3 below, __Metformin also increases 79Ser-PACC/ACC in Normoxic mice validating the treatment. Thus, in normoxic conditions, AMPK____a____2 activation does not exert any cardioprotective effect. We acknowledge that this reinforces our result about the specificity of AMPK____a____2 activation by Metformin under chronic IH condition. We could add this Figure in supplemental results.

      Please, see the figure on the dowloaded file

      Figure 4 : AMPK activation in Normoxic mice treated with vehicle (Vh, CmCNa 0.01%, 0,1ml.10g-1) or __ __metformin (Met, 300mg.kg-1.d-1 : __ __172Thr-P-AMPK/AMPK (A) and 79Ser-P-ACC/ACC (B) ratio and representative image of Western-blot (C) (n=3-6); *p

      Fig. 3K - what cre is used for the a2 KO mice?

      As written in the Materials and methods section, AMPKa2KO mice are not inducible Knock-out mice. Constitutive AMPKα2 knockout mice were kindly generated by Benoit Viollet (Viollet B, JCI, 2003).

      Include normoxia data for the a2 KO mice studies.

      The question of the reviewer concerning the cardioprotective effects of metformin is interesting but is not aligned with the objectives of the study. Indeed, we did not treat normoxic mice with Met for several reasons. First, the objective of the study was to find a cardioprotective strategy against IH-induced an increase in infarct size. Second, Fig. 3I shows that Met significantly reduced infarct size upon IH only; this suggests that AMPK____a____2 activation is specifically involved in IH-induced increase in infarct size but not in reducing infarct size in normoxic mice. Moreover, the beneficial impact of metformin in standard models of myocardial ischemia-reperfusion is controversial and has been extensively discussed (Foretz et al. Cell Metab. 2014). Overall, using AMPKa2 mice was legitimated in the context of IH only. We validated the involvement of AMPKa2 in the cardioprotective effect of metformin especially in IH conditions.

      Figure 5G, what is the rationale for switching to CoCl2 in the mice to prove metformin reduced HIF-1α expression? Why not use reduced O2 tension in mice.

      We respectfully disagree with the reviewer since mice were exposed to N and IH and treated or not with Metformin to demonstrate that this drug abolished IH-induced increase in HIF-1a nuclear expression (Figure 4 H, I). The same model was used in Figure 3 to demonstrate the impact of Metformin on infarct size. Fig. 5G was conducted to demonstrate the potential link between AMPKa2 and HIF-1a phosphorylation in basal conditions of AMPKa2 content or in absence of AMPKa2 (AMPKa2-/- mice). The single presence of AMPK____a____2 demonstrates an increase in HIF-1____a____ phosphorylation if its stabilization is increased by CoCl2; this was not observed in AMPK____a____2-/- mice highlighting that AMPK____a____2 plays an important role in HIF-1____a phosphorylation.


      Please find below the answer to the first question asked by the reviewer 2.

      1) Why did authors choose the IH protocol illustrated in Fig. S1A

      The choice of the hypoxic stimulus was based on literature and mainly on our recognized expertise in preclinical studies aiming at better understanding obstructive sleep apnea syndrome (OSA); a chronic pathology associated with several comorbidities such as diabetes, hypertension… We are conscious that the hypoxic stimulus used in this study is very severe, with a nadir arterial oxygen saturation (SaO2) around 60%. However, this experimental design is required to induce detrimental cardiovascular effects __in the absence of any confounding factors (i.e., obesity) or genetic susceptibility for complications (i. e. genetic susceptibility to hypertension) (Dematteis M, ILARJ 2008). Especially in the context of myocardial infarction, exposing rodents to 14 to 21 days of IH at 5% and subjected them to a myocardial ischemia-reperfusion protocol allows us to reproduce the increase in infarct size in rats (Belaidi E, J. Am. Coll. Cardiol., 2009; Bourdier G, Am J Physiol, 2016) and in mice (Belaidi E, Int J Cardiol 2016; Moulin S, Can J Cardiol 2020) similar to what has been observed in apneic patients (Buchner S, EHJ 2014). __Moreover, we recently conducted a meta-analysis based on 23 preclinical studies aiming at investigating the impact of the IH pattern (duration, FiO2, repetition of cycles…) on infarct size and cardiomyocyte death (Belaidi E, Eur. Resp. J 2022). We showed that IH significantly increases infarct size when IH is applied several days (especially 14 to 21 days) and when FiO2 is around 5%; whereas IH decreases infarct size when it is applied a single day at a FiO2 at 10%. This meta-analysis provided the confirmation that we need to apply a chronic and severe stimulus to reproduce an increase in infarct size that is observed in apneic patients which are exposed every day, during several days to a decrease in SaO2. If the reviewers and the editor consider that this point should be discussed in the discussion section, we will be happy to include it.

      • *

      Please find below the answers or the revisions that have already been incorporated in response to the comments of the reviewer 3. They appear in red in the new manuscript except the modifications performed in the “references” section which appear in black.

      1 The authors used H9c2 rat cardiac cells in vitro experiments although they used mouse model in vivo experiments. Using mouse P19.CL6 cardiac cells instead of rat H9c2 cells may much clearer. Why the authors did not use P19.CL6 cells should be explained.

      We thank the reviewer for his/her suggestion. P19CL6 cell line has been isolated from pluripotent P19 embryonal carcinoma (EC) cells after long term culture under conditions for mesodermal differentiation (Habara-Ohkubo A, Cell Struc Funct 1996). Therefore, these cells are mostly used to ____study the differentiation of cardiac muscle. Indeed, they were recognized to avoid large variations in the differentiation rates which were extensively reported (Mueller I, J Biomed Biotechnol 2010). To our knowledges no ventricular non-beating mice cell line. In this study, we used H9c2 which are extensively used and recognized as a gold standard cellular model to study the biology of cardiomyocytes including mechanisms involved in cardiac ischemia-reperfusion injury (Paillard M, Circulation, 2013; Zhang G Circulation 2021__), cardiac hypertrophy__ (Zhang N, Cell Death Diff 2020; Hu H, Cardiovasc Res 2020), intra-organites calcium exchanges (Moulin S, Antioxydants, 2022, Paillard M, Circulation, 2013) as drug testing (Beshay NM, J Pharm and Tox Methods, 2007). Recently, H9c2 and P19.CL6 were exposed to intermittent hypoxia (70 cycles of FiO2 1% (5 min) - FiO2 21% (10%)) in order to “mimic OSA” and investigate the transcription level of a pool of genes. The authors show some similiraties and differences of mRNA expression between the two cell lines that, indeed, could be attributed to variations in the cell origin (Takasawa S, IJMS 2022). However, in this study, there are no experiment allowing to assess the state of cardiac cells (apoptosis, life, metabolism, remodeling) questioning the pathophysiologic transposability of the model. Moreover, the number of experiments conducted on H9C2 (pubmed references : 7000 vs 100 for P19.CL6) to understand the mechanism involved in acute and chronic cardiac pathologies makes our choice confident and relevant.

      2 The authors described, "The protocol was approved by the French minister (APAFIS#23725-2020012111137561.v2)." in Animals (page 16) without showing approval date, the authors should clearly show the approval date together with their approval numbers.

      We added the approvement date in the materials and methods section. It was approved on February 20, 2020.

      3 In Figure 2 L, scale bar(s) should be added because figures are magnified and/or reduced by printer.

      We agree with the reviewer that scale bars were not visible; we highlighted them.

      4 In Figure 3J and 3N, scale bar(s) should be added.

      Scale bars have been now added on figures 3J and 3N. All pictures were acquired at the maximal zoom of a camera placed at an equal distance from the slices. Then, analyses were performed, slice per slice, with Image J with the same zoom (x5 to get an image at 100%). In this context, scale was added based on a photo of slice taken close to a ruler.

      5 In introduction, "HIF-1" should be changed to "hypoxia-inducible factor 1 (HIF-1)".

      Thank you, we replaced HIF-1 by Hypoxia Inducible Factor-1 (HIF-1) in the introduction section.

      6 In Results, "Angpt1, Txnip, Nmrk2, Nuak1 or Pfkfb1" should be changed to "Angiopoietin 1 (Angpt1), Thioredoxin-interacting protein (Txnip), Nicotinamide riboside kinase 2 (Nmrk2), NUAK family SNF1-like kinase 1 (Nuak1) or 6-phosphofructo-2-kinase/fructose-2,6-biphosphatase 1 (Pfkb1)".

      We did the modification and let the abbreviation in italic since it concerns genes name.

      7 In Chronic intermittent hypoxia, "FiO2" should be changed to "FiO2".

      Thank you, we changed it in the materials and methods section.

      8 In Western-blot, "Bio-Rad, California, USA" should be changed to "Bio-Rad, Hercules, CA".

      Thank you, we did it.

      9 In Western-blot, what "tubulin" (α-tubulin or β-tubulin) should be clarified.

      We agree with the reviewer that this point should be specified; α-tubulin was stained, we added the “α”.

      As mentioned below, we have done all the modifications required by the reviewer in the references section.

      10 In Ref. 8, "Antioxidants (Basel) 11 (2022)" should be changed to "Antioxidants (Basel) 11, 2326 (2022)".

      Done

      11 In Ref.10, "Pharmacol Ther (2016)" should be changed to "Pharmacol Ther 168, 1-11 (2016)".

      Done

      12 In Ref.13, "Antioxidants (Basel) 11 (2022)" should be changed to "Antioxidants (Basel) 11, 1462 (2022).

      Done

      13 In Ref. 21, "Diabetes (2017)" should be changed to "Diabetes 66, 2942-2951 (2017)".

      Done

      14 In Ref. 28, "Adv Biol (Weinh), e2300292 (2023)" should be changed to "Adv Biol (Weinh), 8, 2300292 (2023)".

      Done

      15 In Ref. 37, "J Am Heart Assoc 6 (2017)" should be changed to "J Am Heart Assoc 6, e006680 (2017)".

      Done

      16 In Ref. 41, "Eur Respir Rev 32 (2023)" should be changed to "Eur Respir Rev 32, 230083 (2023)".

      Done

      17 In Ref. 46, "Int J Mol Sci 22 (2020)" should be changed to "Int J Mol Sci 22, 268 (2021)".

      Done

      18 In Ref. 47, "Int J Mol Sci 21 (2020)" should be changed to "Int J Mol Sci 21, 2428 (2020)". Done

      4. Description of analyses that authors prefer not to carry out

      __Please find below the answers to the comment of the reviewer 3 that we cannot provide and that is not in the scope of the study. __

      • *

      Figure 5, multiple phosphorylation sites have been identified on HIF1a. What is the nature of the Thr/SerP-HIF1a antibody? It would be far more preferable (essential?) to identify the site(s) within HIF1a that are phosphorylated by AMPK.

      The antibody was provided by Cell Signalling, ref. 9631. Phospho-(Ser/Thr) Phe Antibody detects phospho-serine or threonine in the context of tyrosine, tryptophan or phenylalanine.

      The identification of the Phosphorylation sites will require a long-time consuming phosphoproteomic analysis and subsequent functional validation in vivo and in vitro (directed mutagenesis, knock-in mice, …) which are out of the scope of our paper.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Response to Public Reviewer Comments

      We again thank the reviewers for the time and effort they clearly put into reviewing our manuscript. We have revised our manuscript to take into account the majority of their suggestions, primary among them being refinements of our model and classification approach, detailed sensitivity analysis of our model, and several new simulations. Their very constructive feedback has resulted in what we feel is a much-improved paper. In what follows, we respond to each of their points.

      Reviewer #1:

      COMMENT: The reviewer suggested that our control policy classification thresholds should be increased, especially if the behavioral labels are to be subsequently used to guide analyses of neural data which “is messy enough, but having trials being incorrectly labeled will make it even messier when trying to quantify differences in neural processing between strategies.”

      REPLY: We appreciate the observation and agree with the suggestion. In the revised manuscript, we simplified the model (as another reviewer suggested), which allowed for better training of the classifier. This enabled an increase in the threshold to 95% to have more confidence in the identified control strategies. Figures 7 and 8 were regenerated based on the new threshold.

      COMMENT: The reviewer asked if we could discuss what one might expect to observe neurally under the different control policies, and also suggested that an extension of this work could be to explore perturbation trials, which might further distinguish between the two control policies.

      REPLY: It is indeed interesting to speculate what neural activity could underlie these different behavioral signatures. As this task is novel to the field, it is difficult to predict what we might observe once we examine neural activity through the lens of these control regimes. We hope this will be the topic of future studies, and one aspect worthy of investigation is how neural activity prior to the start of the movement may reflect two different control objectives. Previous work has shown that motor cortex is highly active and specific as monkeys prepare for a cued movement and that this preparatory activity can take place without an imposed delay period (Ames et al., 2014; Cisek & Kalaska, 2005; Dekleva et al., 2018; Elsayed et al., 2016; Kaufman et al., 2014; Lara et al., 2018; Perich et al., 2018; Vyas et al., 2018; Zimnik & Churchland, 2021). It seems possible that the control strategies we observed correspond to different preparatory activity in the motor cortex. We added these speculations to the discussion.

      The reviewer’s suggestion to introduce perturbations to probe sensory processing is very good and was also suggested by another reviewer. We therefore conducted additional simulations in which we introduced perturbations (Supplementary Material; Figure S10). Indeed, in these model simulations the two control objectives separated more. However, testing these predictions via experiments must await future work.

      COMMENT: “It seems like a mix of lambda values are presented in Figure 5 and beyond. There needs to be some sort of analysis to verify that all strategies were equally used across lambda levels. Otherwise, apparent differences between control strategies may simply reflect changes in the difficulty of the task. It would also be useful to know if there were any trends across time?”

      REPLY: We appreciate and agree with the reviewer’s suggestion. We have added a complementary analysis of control objectives with respect to task difficulty, presented in the Supplementary Material (Figures S7 and S8). We demonstrate that, overall, the control objectives remain generally consistent throughout trials and difficulty levels. Therefore, it can be concluded that the difference in behavior associated with different control objectives does not depend on the trial sequence or difficulty of the task. A statement to this extent was added to the main text.

      COMMENT: “Figure 2 highlights key features of performance as a function of task difficulty. …However, there is a curious difference in hand/cursor Gain for Monkey J. Any insight as to the basis for this difference?”

      REPLY: The apparently different behavior of Monkey J in the hand/cursor RMS ratio could be due to subject-to-subject variability. Given that we have data from only two monkey subjects, we examined inter-individual variations between human subjects in the Supplementary Material by presenting individual hand/cursor gain data for all individual human subjects (Figure S1). As can be seen, there was indeed variability, with some subjects not exhibiting the same clear trend with task difficulty. However, on average, the RMS ratio shows a slight decrease as trials grow more difficult, as was earlier shown in Figure 2. We added a sentence about the possibility of inter-individual variations to address the difference in behavior of monkey J with reference to the supplementary material.

      Reviewer #2:

      (Reviewer #2's original review is with the first version of the Reviewed Preprint. Below is the authors' summary of those comments.)

      COMMENT: The reviewer commends the care and effort taken to characterize control policies that may be used to perform the CST, via dual human and monkey experiments and model simulations, noting the importance of doing so as a precursor to future neural recordings or BMI experiments. But the reviewer also wondered if it is all that surprising that different subjects might choose different strategies: “... it makes sense that different subjects might choose to favor different objectives, and also that they can do so when instructed. But has this taught us something about motor control or simply that there is a natural ambiguity built into the task?”

      REPLY: The redundancy in the task that allowed different solutions to achieve the task was deliberate, and the motivation for choosing this task for this study. We therefore did not regard the resulting subject-to-subject variability as a finding of our study. Rather, redundancy and inter-individual variability are features ubiquitous in all everyday actions and we explicitly wanted to examine behavior that is closer to such behavior. As commended by the reviewers, CST is a rich task that extends our research beyond the conventional highly-constrained reaching task. The goal of our study was to develop a computational account to identify and classify such differences to better leverage future neural analyses of such more complex behaviors. This choice of task has now been better motivated in the Introduction of the revised manuscript.

      COMMENT: The reviewer asks about our premise that subjects may use different control objectives in different trials, and whether instead a single policy may be a more parsimonious account for the different behavioral patterns in the data, given noise and instability in the system. In support of this view, the reviewer implemented a simple fixed controller and shared their own simulations to demonstrate its ability to generate different behavioral patterns simply by changing the gain of the controller. The reviewer concludes that our data “are potentially compatible with any of these interpretations, depending on which control-style model one prefers.”

      REPLY: We first address the reviewer’s concern that a simple “fixed” controller can account for the two types of behavioral patterns observed in Experiment 2 (instructed groups) by a small change in the control gain. We note that our controller is also fixed in terms of the plant, the actuator, and the sensory feedback loop; the only change we explore is in the relative weights of position vs. velocity in the Q matrix. This determines whether it is deviations in position or in velocity that predominate in the cost function. This, in turn, generates changes in the gain vector L in our model, since the optimal solution (i.e. the gains L that minimize the cost function) depends on the Q matrix as well as the dynamics of the plant (specifically, the lambda value). Hence, one could interpret the differences arising from changes in the control objective (the Q matrix) as changes in the gains of our “fixed” controller.

      More importantly, while the noise and instability in the system may indeed occasionally result in distinct behavioral patterns (and we have observed such cases in our simulations as well), these factors are far from giving an alternative account for the structural differences in the behavior that we attribute to the control objective. To substantiate this point, we performed additional simulations that are provided in the Supplementary Material (Figures S4—6). These simulations show that neither a change in noise nor in the relative cost of effort can account for the two distinct types of behavior. These differences are more consistently attributed to a change in the control objective.

      In addition, our approach provides a normative account of the control gains needed to simulate the observed data, as well as the control objectives that underlie those gains. As such, the two control policies in our model (Position and Velocity Control) resulted in control gains that captured the differences in the experimental groups (Experiment 2), both at the single trial and aggregate levels and across different task difficulties. Figure S9 in the Supplementary Material shows how the control gains differ between Position and Velocity Control in our model across different difficulty levels.

      We agree,with the reviewer’s overall point, that there are no doubt many models that can exhibit the variability observed in our experimental data, our simulations, or the reviewer’s simulations. Our study aimed to explore in detail not only the model’s ability to generate the variable behavior observed in experimental data, but also to match experimental results in terms of performance levels, gains, lags and correlations across a wide range of lambda values, wherein the only changes in the model were the lambda value and the control objective. Without the details of the reviewer’s model, we are unable to perform a detailed analysis of that model. Even so, we are not claiming that our model is the ‘ground truth,’ only that it is certainly a reasonable model, adopted from the literature, that provides intuitive and normative explanation about the performance of humans and monkeys over a range of metrics, system dynamics, and experimental conditions.

      Finally, we understand the reviewer’s concern regarding whether the trial-by-trial identification of control strategy in Figure 8 suggests that (uninstructed) subjects constantly switch control objectives between Position and Velocity. Although it is not unreasonable to imagine that individuals would intuitively try different strategies between ‘keeping the cursor still’ and ‘keeping the cursor at the center’ across trials, we agree that it is generally difficult to determine such trial-to-trial changes, especially when the behavior lies somewhere in between the two control objectives. In such cases, as we originally discussed in the manuscript, an alternative explanation could be a mixed control objective that generates behavior at the intersection of Position and Velocity Control, i.e., between the two slopes in Figure 8. We believe, however, that our modeling approach is still helpful in cases where performance is predominantly based on Position or Velocity Control. After all, the motivation for this study was to parse neural data into two classes associated with each control objective to potentially better identify structure underlying these behaviors.

      We clarified these points in the main text by adding further explanation in the Discussion section.

      COMMENT: The reviewer suggested additional experiments, such as perturbation trials, that might be useful to further explore the separability of control objectives. They also suggested that we temper our conclusion that our approach can reliably discriminate amongst different control policies on individual trials. Finally, the reviewer suggested that we modify our Introduction and/or Discussion to note past human/monkey research as well as investigations of minimization of velocity-error versus position-error in the smooth pursuit system.

      REPLY: We have expanded our simulations to investigate the effects of perturbation on the separability of different control objectives (Figure S10 in Supplementary Materials). We demonstrated that introducing perturbations more clearly differentiated between Position and Velocity Control. These results provide a good basis for further experimental verifications of the control objectives, but we defer these for future work.

      We also appreciate the additional past work that bridges human and monkey research that the reviewer highlights, including the related discussions in the eye movement literature on position versus velocity control. We have modified our Introduction and Discussion accordingly.

      Reviewer #3:

      COMMENT: The reviewer asked whether the observed differences in behavior might be due to some other factors besides the control policy, such as motor noise or effort cost, and suggested that we more systematically ruled out that possibility.

      REPLY: We appreciate and have heeded the reviewer’s suggestion. The revised manuscript now includes additional simulations in which the control objective was fixed to either Position or Velocity Control, while other parameters were systematically varied. Specifically, we examined the influence of the relative effort cost, the sensory delay, and motor noise, on performance. The results of these sensitivity analyses are presented in the Supplementary Material, Figures S4—6. In brief, we found that changing the relative effort cost, delay, or noise levels, mainly affected the success rate in performance (as expected), but did not affect the behavioral features originally associated with control objectives. We include a statement about this result in the main text with reference to the details provided in the Supplementary Material.

      COMMENT: The reviewer questioned our choice of classification features (RMS position and velocity) and wondered if other features might yield better class separation, such as the hand/cursor gain. In a similar vein, reviewer 2 suggested in their recommendations that we examine the width of the autocorrelation function as a potentially better feature.

      REPLY: We note first that our choice of cursor velocity and position stems from a dynamical systems perspective, where position-velocity phase-space analysis is common. However, we also explored other features as suggested. We found that they, too, exhibited overlap between the two different control objectives, and did not provide any significant improvement in classification performance (Figures S2 and S3; Supplementary Materials). Of course, that is not to say that a more exhaustive examination of features may not find ones that yield better classification performance than those we investigated, but that is beyond the scope of our study. We refer to this consideration of alternative metrics in the discussion.

      COMMENT: The reviewer notes that “It seems that the classification problem cannot be solved perfectly, at least on a single-trial level.” To address this point, the reviewer suggested that we conduct additional simulations under the two different control objectives, and quantify the misclassifications.

      REPLY: We appreciate the reviewer’s suggestion, and have conducted the additional simulations as suggested, the results of which are included in the revised manuscript.

      COMMENT: “The problem of inferring the control objective is framed as a dichotomy between position control and velocity control. In reality, however, it may be a continuum of possible objectives, based on the relative cost for position and velocity. How would the problem differ if the cost function is framed as estimating a parameter, rather than as a classification problem?”

      REPLY: A blended control strategy, formulated as a cost function that is a weighted combination of position and velocity costs, is indeed a possibility that we briefly discussed in the original manuscript. This possibility arises particularly for individuals whose performance metrics lie somewhere between the purely Position or purely Velocity Control. While our model allows for a weighted cost function, which we will explore in future work, we felt in this initial study that it was important to first identify the behavioral features unique to each control objective.

      Response to Recommendations for the Authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      None beyond those stated above.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      COMMENT: Line 166 states "According to equation (1), this behavior was equivalent to reducing the sum (𝑝 + 𝑥) when 𝜆 increased, so as to prevent rapid changes in cursor velocity". This doesn't seem right. In equation 1, velocity (not acceleration) depends on p+x. So a large p+x doesn't create a "rapid change in cursor velocity", but rather a rapid change in cursor position.

      REPLY: The reviewer is correct and we have corrected this misworded sentence; thank you for catching that.

      COMMENT: The reviewer points out the potential confusion readers may have, given our unclear use of ‘control strategy’ vs. ‘control policy’ vs. ‘control objective’. The reviewer suggests that “It would be helpful if this could be spelled out early and explicitly. 'Control strategy' seems perilously close to 'control policy', and it would be good to avoid that confusion. The authors might prefer to use the term 'cost function', which is really what is meant. Or they might prefer 'control objective', a term that they introduce as synonymous with 'control strategy'.”

      REPLY: We thank the reviewer for noting this ambiguity. We have clarified the language in the Introduction to explicitly note that by strategy, we mean the objective or cost function that subjects attempt to optimize. We then use ‘control objective’ consistently and removed the term ‘policy’ from the paper to avoid confusion. We also now use Position Control and Velocity Control as the labels for our two control objectives.

      COMMENT: The reviewer notes that in Figure 2B and the accompanying text in the manuscript, we need to be clearer about what is being correlated; namely, cursor and hand position.

      REPLY: Thank you for pointing out this lack of clarity, which we have corrected as suggested.

      COMMENT: The reviewer questions our attribution of decreasing lag with task difficulty as a consequence of subjects becoming more attentive/responsive when the task is harder, and points out that our model doesn’t include this possible influence yet the model reproduces the change in lag. The reviewer suggests that a more likely cause is due to phase lead in velocity compared to position, with velocity likely increasing with task difficulty, resulting in a phase advance in the response.

      REPLY: Our attribution of the decrease in lag with task difficulty being due to attention/motivation was a recapitulation of this point made in the paper by Quick et al. [2018]. But as noted by the reviewer, this potential influence on lag is not included in our model. Accordingly, the change in lag is more likely a reflection of the phase response of the closed loop system, which does change with task difficulty since the optimal gains depend upon the plant dynamics (i.e., the value of lambda). We have, therefore, deleted the text in question.

      COMMENT: “The Methods tell us rather a lot about the dynamics of the actual system, and the cost functions are also well defined. However, how they got from the cost function to the controller is not described. I was also a bit confused about the controller itself. Is the 50 ms delay assumed when deriving the controller or only when simulating it (the text seems to imply the latter, which might make sense given that it is hard to derive optimal controllers with a hard delay)? How similar (or dissimilar) are the controllers for the two objectives? Is the control policy (the matrix that multiplies state to get u) quite different, or only subtly?”

      REPLY: Thanks for pointing this out. For brevity, we had omitted the details and referred readers to the original paper (Todorov, 2005). However, we now revised the manuscript to now include all the details in the Methods section. Hence, the entire section on the model is new. This also necessitated updating all data figures (Figures 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8) as they contain modeling results.

      COMMENT: “Along similar lines, I had some minor to moderate confusions regarding the OFC model as described in the main text. Fig 3 shows a model with a state estimator, but it isn't explained how this works. …Here it isn't clear whether there is sensory noise, or a delay. The methods say a delay was included in the simulation (but perhaps not when deriving the controller?). Noise appears to have been added to u, but I'm guessing not to x or x'? The figure legend indicates that sensory feedback contains only some state variables, and that state estimation is used to estimate the rest. Presumably this uses a Kalman filter? Does it also use efference copy, as would be typical? My apologies if this was stated somewhere and I missed it. Either way, it would be good to add a bit more detail to the figure and/or figure legend.”

      REPLY: As the lack of detail evidently led to some confusion, we now more clearly spell out the details of the model in the Methods, including the state estimation procedure.

      COMMENT: The reviewer wondered why we chose to plot mean velocity vs. mean position as in Figure 5, noting that, “ignoring scale, all scatter plots would be identical if the vertical axis were final position (because mean velocity determines final position). So what this plot is really examining is the correlation between final position and average position. Under position control, the autocorrelation of position is short, and thus final position tends to have little to do with average position. Under velocity control, the autocorrelation of position is long, and thus final position tends to agree with average position. Given this, why not just analyze this in terms of the autocorrelation of position? This is expected to be much broader under velocity control (where they are not corrected) than under position control (where they are, and thus disappear or reverse quickly). To me, thinking of the result in terms of autocorrelation is more natural.”

      REPLY: The reviewer is correct that the scatter plots in Fig. 5 would be the same (to within a scale factor of the vertical axis) had we plotted final position vs. mean position instead of mean velocity vs. mean position as we did. Our preference for mean velocity vs. mean position stems from a dynamical systems perspective, where position-velocity phase-space analysis is common. We now mention these perspectives in the revised manuscript for the benefit of the reader.

      As suggested, we also investigated the width of the (temporal) autocorrelation function (acf) of cursor position for 200 simulated position control trials and 200 simulated velocity control trials, at four different lambda values (50 simulated trials per lambda). Figs. S2A and B (Supplementary Materials) show example trials and histograms of the acf width, respectively. As the reviewer surmised, velocity control trials tend to have wider acfs than position control trials. However, as with the metrics we chose to analyze, there is overlap and there is no visible benefit for the classification.

      COMMENT: “I think equation ten is incorrect, but would be correct if the identity matrix were added? Also, why is the last term of B set to 1/(Tau*M). What is M? Is it mass (which above was lowercase m)? If so, mass should also be included in A (it would be needed in two places in the last column). Or if we assume m = 1, then just ignore mass everywhere, including here and equation 5. Or perhaps I'm confused, and M is something else?”

      REPLY: Thanks for pointing this out. The Matrix A shown in the paper is for the continuous-time representation of the model. However, as the reviewer correctly mentioned, for the discrete-time implementation of the model, a modification (identity matrix) was added in our simulations. We have now clarified this in the Methods section of the revised manuscript. Also, as correctly pointed out, M is the mass of the hand, which depending on whether the hand acceleration (d^2 p/dt^2) or hand force (F) are taken as the state, it can be included in the A matrix. In our case, the A matrix is modified according to the state vector. Similarly, the B matrix is also modified. This is now clarified in the Methods section of the manuscript.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      COMMENT: “Equations 4-8 are written in continuous time, but Equation 9 is written in discrete time. Then Equation 10 is in discrete time. This needs to be tidied up. … I would suggest being more detailed and systematic, perhaps formulating the control problem in continuous time and then converting to discrete time.”

      REPLY: Thank you for this helpful suggestion. The model section in the Methods has been expanded to provide further details of the equation of motion, the discretization process, the control law calculation and the state estimation process.

      COMMENT: “It seems slightly odd for the observation to include only position and velocity of the cursor. Presumably participants can also observe the state of their own hand through proprioception (even if it were occluded). How would it affect the model predictions if the other states were observable?”

      REPLY: Thanks for pointing this out. We initially included only cursor position and velocity since we felt that was the most prominent state feedback, and the system is observable in that case. Nevertheless, we revised the manuscript and repeated all simulations using a full observability matrix. Our findings and conclusions remain unchanged. With the changes in the modeling, the figures were also updated (Fig.3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8).

      COMMENT: “It seems unnecessary to include the acceleration of the cursor in the formulation of the model. …the acceleration is not even part of the observed state according to line 668… I think the model could therefore be simplified by omitting cursor acceleration from the state vector.”

      REPLY: We agree. We have simplified the model, and generated new simulations and figures. Our results and conclusions were unchanged by this modification. With the changes in the modeling, the figures were also updated (Fig.3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8).

      COMMENT: “In the cost function, it's not clear why any states other than position and velocity of the cursor need to have non-zero values. …The choice to have the cost coefficient for these other states be 1 is completely arbitrary… If the point is that the contribution of these other costs should be negligible, then why not just set them to 0?”

      REPLY: We agree, and have made this change in the Methods section. Our findings and conclusions were unaffected.

      COMMENT: “It seems that the cost matrices were specified after transforming to discrete-time. It is possible however (and perhaps recommended) to formulate in continuous time and convert to discrete time. This can be done cleanly and quite straightforwardly using matrix exponentials. Depending on the discretization timestep, this can also naturally lead to non-zero costs for other states in the discrete-time formulation even if they were zero under continuous time. … A similar comment applies to discretization of the noise.”

      REPLY: Thanks for the suggestion. We have expanded on the discretization process in our Methods section, which uses a common approximation of the matrix exponentiation method.

      COMMENT: “Most of the parameters of the model seem to be chosen arbitrarily. I think this is okay as the point is to illustrate that the kinds of behaviors observed are within the scope of the model. However, it would be helpful to provide some rationale as to how the parameters were chosen. e.g. Were they taken directly from prior literature, or were they hand-tuned to approximately match observed behavior?”

      REPLY: We have revised the manuscript to more clearly note that the noise parameters, as well as parameters of the mechanical system (mass, muscle force, time scale, etc) in our model were taken from previous publications (Todorov, 2005, Cluff et al. 2019). As described in the manuscript, the parameter values of the cost function (Q matrix) were obtained by tuning the parameters to achieve a similar range of success rate with the model as observed in the experimental data. This is now clarified in the Methods section.

      COMMENT: “The ‘true’ cost function for this task is actually a 'well' in position space - zero cost within the screen and very high cost elsewhere. In principle, it might be possible to derive the optimal control policy for this more veridical cost function. It would be interesting to consider whether or not this model might reproduce the observed behaviors.”

      REPLY: This is indeed a very interesting suggestion, but difficult to implement based on the current optimal feedback control framework. However, this is interesting to consider in future work.

      Minor Comments:

      COMMENT: “In Figs 4 and 5, the data points are drawn from different conditions with varying values of lambda. How did the structure of this data depend on lambda? Might it be possible to illustrate in the figure (e.g. the shade/color of each dot) what the difficulty was for each trial?”

      REPLY: We performed additional analyses to show the effects of task difficulty on the choice of control objective. Overall, we found that the main behavioral characteristics of the control objective remained fairly unchanged across different task difficulties or across time. The results of this analysis are included in Fig. S7 and S8 of the Supplementary Materials.

      COMMENT: “Should mention trial duration (6s) in the main narrative of the intro/results.”

      REPLY: We now mention this detail when we describe the task for the first time.

      COMMENT: “As an alternative to training on synthetic data (which might not match behavior that precisely, and was also presumably fitted to subject data at some level) it might be worth considering to do a cross-validation analysis, i.e. train the classifier on subsets of the data with one participant removed each time, and classify on the held-out participant.”

      REPLY: This is indeed a valid point. The main reason to train the classifier based on model simulations was two-fold: first, to have confidence in the training data, as the experimental data was limited and noisy, which would result in less reliable classifications; and second, the model simulations are available for different contexts and conditions, where experimental data is not necessarily available. The latter is a more practical reason to be able to identify control objectives for any subject (who received no instructions), without having to collect training data from matching control subjects who received explicit instructions. Nonetheless, we appreciate the reviewer’s recommendation and will consider that for our future studies.

      COMMENT: “line 690 - Presumably the optimal policy was calculated without factoring in any delay (this would be tricky to do), but the 50ms delay was incorporated at the time of simulation?”

      REPLY: The discretization of the system equations allowed us to incorporate the delay in the system dynamics and solve for the optimal controller with the delay present. This was done simply by system augmentation (e.g., Crevecoeur et al., 2019), where the states of the system in the current time-step were augmented with the states from the 5 preceding time-steps to form the new state vector x(t)_aug =[x(t) , x(t-1) , … , x(t-d) ]. Similarly, the matrices A, B, and H from the system dynamics could be expanded accordingly to form the new dynamical system:

      $$x(t+1){aug} = A{aug} * x(t){aug} + B{aug} * u$$

      Then, the optimal control was implemented on the new (augmented) system dynamics.

      We have revised the manuscript (Methods) to clarify this issue.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      eLife assessment

      This important study identifies the gene mamo as a new regulator of pigmentation in the silkworm Bombyx mori, a function that was previously unsuspected based on extensive work on Drosophila where the mamo gene is involved in gamete production. The evidence supporting the role of Bm-nano in pigmentation is convincing, including high-resolution linkage mapping of two mutant strains, expression profiling, and reproduction of the mutant phenotypes with state-of-the-art RNAi and CRISPR knock-out assays. While the discussion about genetic changes being guided or accelerated by the environment is extremely speculative and has little relevance for the findings presented, the work will be of interest to evolutionary biologists and geneticists studying color patterns and evolution of gene networks.

      Response: Thank you very much for your careful work. In the revised version, we conducted a comparative genomic analysis of the upstream regions of the Bm-mamo gene in 51 wild silkworms and 171 domesticated local silkworms. The analysis of nucleotide diversity (pi) and the fixation index (FSTs) of the Bm-mamo genome sequences in the wild and domesticated silkworm populations were also performed. The results showed that the Bm-mamo genome sequence of local silkworms was relatively conserved, while the upstream sequence of wild silkworms exhibited high nucleotide diversity. This finding suggested a high degree of variability in the regulatory region of the Bm-mamo gene, in wild strains. Additionally, the sequence in this region may have been fixed by domestication selection. We have optimized the description in the discussion section.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This papers performs fine-mapping of the silkworm mutants bd and its fertile allelic version, bdf, narrowing down the causal intervals to a small interval of a handful of genes. In this region, the gene orthologous to mamo is impaired by a large indel, and its function is later confirmed using expression profiling, RNAi, and CRISPR KO. All these experiments are convincingly showing that mamo is necessary for the suppression of melanic pigmentation in the silkworm larval integument.

      The authors also use in silico and in vitro assays to probe the potential effector genes that mamo may regulate.

      Strengths:

      The genotype-to-phenotype workflow, combining forward (mapping) and reverse genetics (RNAi and CRISPR loss-of-function assays) linking mamo to pigmentation are extremely convincing.

      This revision is a much improved manuscript and I command the authors for many of their edits.

      Response: Thank you very much for your careful work. With the help of reviewers and editors, we have revised the manuscript to improve its readability.

      I find the last part of the discussion, starting at "It is generally believed that changes in gene expression patterns are the result of the evolution of CREs", to be confusing.

      In this section, I believe the authors sequentially:

      • emphasize the role of CRE in morphological evolution (I agree)

      • emphasize that TF, and in particular their own CRE, are themselves important mutational targets of evolution (I agree, but the phrasing need to insist the authors are here talking about the CRE found at the TF locus, not the CRE bound by the TF).

      • use the stickleback Pel enhancer as an example, which I think is a good case study, but the authors also then make an argument about DNA fragility sites, which is hard to connect with the present study.

      • then continue on "DNA fragility" using the peppered moth and butterfly cortex locus. There is no evidence of DNA fragility at these loci, so the connection does not work. "The cortex gene locus is frequently mutated in Lepidoptera", the authors say. But a more accurate picture would be that the cortex locus is repeatedly involved in the generation of color pattern variants. Unlike for Pel fragile enhancer, we don't know if the causal mutations at this locus are repeatedly the same, and the haplotypes that have been described could be collateral rather than causal. Overall, it is important to clarify the idea that mutation bias is a possible factor explaining "genetic hotspots of evolution" (or genetic parallelism sensu 10.1038/nrg3483), but it is also possible that many genetic hotspots are repeated mutational targets because of their "optimal pleiotropy" (e.g. hub position in GRNs, such as mamo might be), or because of particularly modular CRE region that allow fine-tuning. Thus, I find the "fragility" argument misleading here. In fact the finding that "bd" and "bdf" alleles are different in nature is against the idea of a fragility bias (unless the authors can show increased mutation rates at this locus in a wild silkmoth species?). These alleles are also artificially-selected ie. they increased in frequency by breeding rather than natural selection in the wild, so while interesting for our understand of the genotype-phenotype map, they are not necessarily representative of the mutations that may underlie evolution in the wild.

      Response: Thank you very much for your careful work. DNA fragility is an interesting topic, but some explanations for DNA fragility are confusing. One study measured the rate of DNA double-strand breaks (DSBs) in yeast artificial chromosomes (YACs), which are chromosomes containing marine Pel that broke ~25 to 50 times more frequently than did the control. These authors believe that the increase in the mutation rate is caused by DNA sequence characteristics, particularly TG-dinucleotide repeats. Moreover, they found that adding a replication origin on the opposite side of Pel did not cause the fungus to switch fragile, making the forward sequence stable and the reverse complement fragile. Thus, Pel fragility is also dependent on the direction of DNA replication. In summary, they suggested that the special DNA sequence is the cause of DNA fragility. In addition, the sequence features associated with DNA fragility in the Pel region are also found in thousands of other positions in the stickleback and human genomes (Xie KT et al, 2019, science).

      In yeast artificial chromosomes (YACs), the characteristics of DNA sequences, such as TG-dinucleotide repeat sequences, may be important reasons for DNA fragility, and these breaks occur during DNA replication. However, the inserted sequence of YAC often undergoes deletion or recombination during cultivation and passage. In addition, yeast is a single-celled organism. Therefore, the results in yeast cannot represent the situation in multicellular organisms. If multicellular organisms are like this, there are several issues as follows:

      (1) The DNA replication process occurs separately in different multicellular organisms. Because DNA breakage and repair are independent, they can lead to the presence of different alleles in different cells. This can potentially lead to the occurrence of extensive chimeric organisms. However, we have not found such a situation in the genome sequencing of many multicellular organisms.

      (2) If the DNA sequence, TG-dinucleotide repeats, is the determining factor, the mutations near the sequence lose their strong correlation with environmental changes. The researchers conducted yeast artificial chromosome experiments in the same environment and found that the frequency of DNA breaks containing TG dinucleotide repeat sequences was 25 to 50 times greater than that of the control group. This means that, whether in the marine population or the lake population, this part of the sticklebacks’ genome has undergone frequent mutations. However, according to related research, populations of lake sticklebacks, rather than marine populations, often exhibit a decrease in the pelvic phenotype.

      (3) Researchers have found thousands of loci in the genome of sticklebacks and humans that contain such sequences (TG-dinucleotide repeats). This means that thousands of sites undergo frequent mutations during DNA replication. Unless these sites do not possess functionality, they will have some impact on the organism, even causing damage. Even if they are not functional sequences, these sequences will gradually be discarded or replaced during frequent mutations rather than being present in large quantities in the genome.

      Therefore, the study of DNA fragility in yeast cannot explain the situation in multicellular organisms.

      As you noted, we want to express that the frequent variation in the cortex gene should be regulated by targeted regulation involving the GRN in Lepidoptera. In addition, studies on specific epigenetic modifications discovered through the referenced fragile DNA sites suggest that DNA fragility is not determined by the DNA sequence (Ji F, 2020, Cell Res) but rather by other factors, such as epigenetic factors. The sequence features discovered at fragile DNA sites are traces of frequent mutations, not causes.

      In this revision, we analyzed the nucleotide diversity of the mamo genome in 51 wild and 171 domestic silkworms. We found high nucleic acid diversity from the third exon to the upstream region of this gene in wild silkworms. We randomly selected 12 wild silkworms and 12 domestic silkworms and compared their upstream sequences to approximately 1 kb. In wild silkworms, there is significant diversity in their upstream sequences. In domestic silkworms, the sequences are highly conserved, but in some silkworms, a long interspersed nuclear element (LINE) is inserted. This finding suggested that there is frequent variation in the sequence of this region in wild silkworms, while fixation occurs in domesticated silkworms. These genomic data are sourced from the pangenome of silkworms (Tong X, 2022, Nat Commun.). In the pangenomic research, 1078 strains (205 local strains, 194 improved strains, 632 mutant strains, and 47 wild silkworms), which included 545 third-generation sequencing genomes, were obtained. An online website was built to utilize these data (http://silkmeta.org.cn/). We warmly welcome you to use these data.

      In summary, for clearer expression, we have rewritten this section.

      Xie KT, Wang G, Thompson AC, Wucherpfennig JI, Reimchen TE, MacColl ADC, Schluter D, Bell MA, Vasquez KM, Kingsley DM. DNA fragility in the parallel evolution of pelvic reduction in stickleback fish. Science. 2019 Jan 4;363(6422):81-84. doi: 10.1126/science.aan1425.

      Ji F, Liao H, Pan S, Ouyang L, Jia F, Fu Z, Zhang F, Geng X, Wang X, Li T, Liu S, Syeda MZ, Chen H, Li W, Chen Z, Shen H, Ying S. Genome-wide high-resolution mapping of mitotic DNA synthesis sites and common fragile sites by direct sequencing. Cell Res. 2020 Nov;30(11):1009-1023. doi: 10.1038/s41422-020-0357-y.

      Tong X, Han MJ, Lu K, Tai S, Liang S, Liu Y, Hu H, Shen J, Long A, Zhan C, Ding X, Liu S, Gao Q, Zhang B, Zhou L, Tan D, Yuan Y, Guo N, Li YH, Wu Z, Liu L, Li C, Lu Y, Gai T, Zhang Y, Yang R, Qian H, Liu Y, Luo J, Zheng L, Lou J, Peng Y, Zuo W, Song J, He S, Wu S, Zou Y, Zhou L, Cheng L, Tang Y, Cheng G, Yuan L, He W, Xu J, Fu T, Xiao Y, Lei T, Xu A, Yin Y, Wang J, Monteiro A, Westhof E, Lu C, Tian Z, Wang W, Xiang Z, Dai F. High-resolution silkworm pan-genome provides genetic insights into artificial selection and ecological adaptation. Nat Commun. 2022 Sep 24;13(1):5619. doi: 10.1038/s41467-022-33366-x.

      Lu K, Pan Y, Shen J, Yang L, Zhan C, Liang S, Tai S, Wan L, Li T, Cheng T, Ma B, Pan G, He N, Lu C, Westhof E, Xiang Z, Han MJ, Tong X, Dai F. SilkMeta: a comprehensive platform for sharing and exploiting pan-genomic and multi-omic silkworm data. Nucleic Acids Res. 2024 Jan 5;52(D1):D1024-D1032. doi: 10.1093/nar/gkad956.

      Curiously, the last paragraph ("Some research suggests that common fragile sites...") elaborate on the idea that some sites of the genome are prone to mutation. The connection with mamo and the current article are extremely thin. There is here an attempt to connect meiotic and mitotic breaks to Bm-mamo, but this is confusing: it seems to propose Bm-mamo as a recruiter of epigenetic modulators that may drive higher mutation rates elsewhere. Not only I am not convinced by this argument without actual data, but this would not explain how the mutations at the Bm-mamo itself evolved.

      Response: Thank you very much for your careful work. This section mainly illustrates that DNA fragility is not determined by sequence but is regulated by other factors in animals. In fruit flies, they found that mamo is an important candidate gene for recombination hotspot setting in meiosis. First, we evaluated PRDM9, which plays an important role in setting recombination hotspots during meiosis. Our purpose in mentioning this information is to illustrate that chromosome recombination is a process of programmed double strand breaks and to answer another reviewer's question about programmed events in the genome. In summary, we suggest that some variations in DNA sequences are procedural results. We have optimized the description of this section in this version.

      On a more positive note, I find it fascinating that the authors identified a TF that clearly articulates or orchestrate larval pattern development, and that when it is deleted, can generate healthy individuals. In other words, while it is a TF with many targets, it is not too pleiotropic. This idea, that the genetically causal modulators of developmental evolution are regulatory genes, has been described elsewhere (e.g. Fig 4c in 10.1038/s41576-020-0234-z, and associated refs). To me, the beautiful findings about Bm-mamo make sense in the general, existing framework that developmental processes and regulatory networks "shape" the evolutionary potential and trajectories of organisms. There is a degree of "programmability" in the genomes, because some loci are particularly prone to modulate a given type of trait. Here, Bm-mamo, as a potentially regulator of both CPs and melanin pathway genes, appear to be a potent modulator of epithelial traits. Claiming that there are inherent mutational biases behind this is unwarranted.

      Response: Thank you very much for your careful work. I completely agree with your statement that the genome exhibits a certain degree of programmability. On the one hand, some transcription factors can precisely control the spatiotemporal expression levels of some structural genes (such as pigment synthesis genes). On the other hand, these transcription factors are also subject to strict expression regulation. Because the color pattern is complex, changes in single or minority structural genes result in incomplete or imprecise changes in coloring patterns. Nevertheless, several regulatory factors can regulate multiple downstream target genes. Changes in their expression patterns can lead to holistic and significant changes in color patterns. There are long intergenic regions upstream of many important transcription factors, dozens of kilobase pairs (Kb) to hundreds of Kb, which may contain many different regulatory elements for better control of their expression patterns. Therefore, gene regulatory networks can directly regulate transcription factors to modulate a given type of trait. Transcription factors and their downstream target genes can form a functional module, which is similar to a functional module in software or operating systems. This regulation of transcription factors is simpler in terms of steps, which are similar to a single click switch button. The gene regulatory network regulates these modules in response to environmental changes and is widely recognized.

      Some people do not agree that genetic variations can also be regulated. They claim that this is completely random. The infinite monkey theorem (Félix-Édouard-Justin-Émile Borel, 1909) states that if an infinite number of monkeys were given typewriters and an infinite amount of time, they would eventually produce the complete works of Shakespeare. Although this theory advocates randomness on the surface, its conclusions are full of inevitability (tail event). In nature, some things we observe do not have obvious regularity because they involve relatively complex factors, and the underlying logic is obscure and difficult to understand. We often name them random. However, as we gradually understand the logic behind this complex event, we can also recognize the procedural nature of this randomness.

      Previously, chromosomal recombination during meiosis was believed to be a random event. However, currently, it is believed that the process is procedural. The occurrence of meiotic recombination mentioned earlier indicates that the genome has the ability to self-set the position of double-strand breaks to form new allelic forms. Because meiotic recombination is programmed, transcription factors that recognize DNA sites, enzymes that cleave double strands, and DNA repair systems exist, programming can also introduce genetic variation. A study in plants has provided insights into this programmed mutation (Monroe JG, 2023, nature). Frequent changes in the expression patterns of some transcription factors occur between and/or within species. In this article, we only discuss the possible reasons for variations in the expression patterns of some transcription factors in a general manner and simple reasoning. We have added an analysis of the response of wild silkworms and improved the relevance of the discussion.

      Monroe JG, Srikant T, Carbonell-Bejerano P, Becker C, Lensink M, Exposito-Alonso M, Klein M, Hildebrandt J, Neumann M, Kliebenstein D, Weng ML, Imbert E, Ågren J, Rutter MT, Fenster CB, Weigel D. Mutation bias reflects natural selection in Arabidopsis thaliana. Nature. 2022 Feb;602(7895):101-105. doi: 10.1038/s41586-021-04269-6. Epub 2022 Jan 12. Erratum in: Nature. 2023 Aug;620(7973):

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      • Please structure your Discussion with section headers.

      Response: Thank you very much for your careful work. We have added relevant section headers.

      • As explained in my public review, I found the two last sections of the Discussion to be dispersed and confusing. I also must say that I carefully read the Response to Reviewers on this, which helped me to better understand the authors' intentions here. Please consider the revision of this Discussion as this feels extremely speculative difficult to connect with Bm-mamo.

      Response: Thank you very much for your careful work. We have rewritten this part of the content.

      • typo: were found near the TTS of yellow --> TSS

      Response: Thank you very much for your careful work. We have made these modifications.

      • l. 234 :"expression level of the 18 CP genes in the integument". Consider adding a mention of Figure 7 here, as only Fig. S10 is cited here.

      Response: Thank you very much for your careful work. We have made these modifications.

      • Editorial comment on the second half of the Abstract:

      Wu et al : "We found that Bm-mamo can comprehensively regulate the expression of related pigment synthesis and cuticular protein genes to form color patterns. This indicates that insects have a genetic basis for coordinate regulation of the structure and shape of the cuticle, as well as color patterns. This genetic basis provides the possibility for constructing the complex appearances of some insects. This study provides new insight into the regulation of color patterns."

      I respectfully suggest a more accurate rephrasing, where the methods are mentioned, and where the logical argument is more straightforward. For example

      "Using RNAi and CRISPR we show that Bm-mamo is a repressor or dark melanin patterns in the larval epithelium. Using in-vitro binding assays and gene expression profiling in wild-type and mutant larvae, we also show that Bm-mamo likely regulate the expression of related pigment synthesis and cuticular protein genes in a coordinated manner to mediate its role in color pattern formation. This mechanism is consistent with a dual role of this transcription factor in regulating both the structure and shape of the cuticle and pigments that are embedded within it. This study provides new insight into the regulation of color patterns as well as in the construction more complex epithelial features in some insects."

      I hope this let the ideas of the original version transpire as the authors intended.

      Response: Thank you very much for your careful work. We have made these modifications.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment

      This manuscript describes valuable information on how the extraocular muscles (EOM) are preserved in a mouse model of familial Amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS) that carries a G93A mutation in the Sod1 gene. The authors provide convincing evidence of how the integrity of neuromuscular junction is preserved in EOM but not in limb and diaphragm muscles of G93A mice. Overall, this interesting work provides new evidence regarding the etiopathogenesis of ALS and insights for the development of therapeutic targets to slow the loss of neuromuscular function in ALS.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer#1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The study explores the mechanisms that preserve satellite cell function in extraocular muscles (EOMs) in a mouse model of familial Amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS) that carries the G93A mutation in the Sod1 gene. ALS is a fatal neuromuscular disorder driven by motor neuron degeneration, leading to progressive wasting of most skeletal muscles but not EOM. The study first established that integrity of neuromuscular junction (NMJ) is preserved in EOM but not in limb and diaphragm muscles of G93A mice, and sodium butyrate (NaBu) treatment partially improves NMJ integrity in limb and diaphragm muscles of G93A mice. They also found a loss of synaptic satellite cells and renewability of cultured myoblasts in hindlimb and diaphragm muscles of G93A mice, but not in EOM, and NaBu treatment restores myoblast renewability. Using RNA-seq analysis, they identify that exon guidance molecules, particularly Cxcl12, are highly expressed in EOM myoblasts, along with more sustainable renewability. Using a neuromuscular co-culture model, they convincingly show that AAV-mediated Cxcl12 expression in G93A myotubes enhances motor axon extension and innervation. Strikingly, NaBu-mediated preservation of NMJ in limb muscles of G93A mice is associated with elevated expression of Cxcl12 in satellite cells and improved renewability of myoblasts. These results together offer molecular insights into genes critical for maintaining satellite cell function and revealing a mechanism through which NaBu ameliorates ALS.

      Strengths:

      Combination of in vivo and cell culture models. Nice imaging of NMJ and associated satellite cells. Using motoneuron-myotube coculture to establish the mechanism. Tested and illustrated a mechanism through which a clinically used drug ameliorates ALS.

      Weaknesses:

      Data presentation could be improved (see details in the Recommendation for Authors).

      It would have been nice to have included G93A motoneurons in the coculture study.

      This is indeed a plan of our future study. In the revised version, we discussed the limitation of not including G93A motor neurons in the coculture assay. (Page 11, Line 445-448)

      “However, it is possible that motor neurons carrying ALS mutations will respond differently to Cxcl12 mediated axon guidance than WT motor neurons. This is a limitation of the current study which will be investigated in future co-culture studies.”

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The work is potentially interesting as it outlines the role of satellite cells in supporting the functional decline of skeletal muscle due to the denervation process. In this context the authors analyze the functional and molecular characteristics of satellite cells in different muscle types differently affected by the degenerative process in the ALS model.

      Strengths:

      The work illustrates a relevant aspect of the differences in stem cell potential in different skeletal muscles in a mouse model of the disease through a considerable amount of data and experimental models.

      Weaknesses:

      However, there are some criticisms of the structuring of the results:

      It is not clear how many animals were used in each experimental group (Figs 1 and 2, Fig. 2-9). In particular, it is unclear whether the dots in the histograms represent biological or technical replicates. Furthermore, the gender used in experimental groups is never specified. This last point appears to be important considering the gender differences observed in the SOD1G93A mouse model.

      The original quantification data and mouse gender specification were actually listed in the corresponding supplementary tables. We now added the gender specification and number of the mice used in all corresponding figure legends. The number of mice used for sorting SCs from different muscles were also specified in the Methods section in the revised manuscript. (Page 12, Line 489-493).

      We also added one more supplementary figure (Figure 1-figure supplement 2) to compare the innervation status between male and female mice. The following description has been added in the updated manuscript (Page 3-4; Line 125-130):

      “The data shown in Figure 1B has also been replotted to compare the innervation status between male and female mice (Figure 1- figure supplement 2). In terms of well- or partially- innervated ratios, there are no significant gender difference observed in our experimental condition, in which the muscle samples were collected at the end stage of the disease, although there is marginally lower “poorly innervated ratio” in the EDL muscle of G93A female mice compared to G93A male mice.”

      However, we acknowledge that the current study has limitations to fully detect cross-gender differences in our experiments due to low “n” numbers per gender. We hope this is understandable as we have to split limited resource of ALS G93A mice between different kinds of experiments, including NMJ integrity assessment, peri-nuclear SC abundance assessment, whole muscle-qPCR, cell sorting for imaging, cell sorting for RNA-Seq, cell-sorting for qPCR, cell-sorting for neuromuscular co-culture, etc., in this pioneer study. However, we do intend to gradually build up “n” numbers for characterization of cross-gender difference in our ongoing studies.

      As to what the dots in each plot represent, we have inserted the description in each relevant figure legend as detailed below:

      For Fig 1, each dot represents quantification result from a single mouse. Please see Figure 1-figure supplement 1, Figure 1-figure supplement 2 and Figure 1-table supplement 1 for NMJs measured per muscle type per gender. Briefly, EDL, soleus and diaphragm muscles were from 4 male and 6 female mice per group; WT EOM group was from 4 male and 4 female mice; G93A EOM group was from 3 male and 4 female mice; G93A EOM with NaBu feeding group was from 6 female mice.

      For Fig 2, each dot represents quantification result from a single mouse. Please see Figure 2-table supplement 1 for NMJs measured per muscle type per gender. Briefly, WT EDL group was from 2 male and 2 female mice; G93A EDL group was from 3 male and 3 female mice; G93A EDL with NaBu feeding group was from 2 male and 4 female mice; WT soleus group was from 2 male and 3 female mice; G93A soleus group was from 3 male and 2 female mice; G93A soleus with NaBu feeding group was from 1 male and 4 female mice; WT diaphragm group was from 1 male and 4 female mice; G93A diaphragm group was from 1 male and 4 female mice; G93A diaphragm with NaBu feeding group was from 4 female mice; WT EOM group was from 1 male and 3 female mice; G93A EOM group was from 5 female mice; G93A EOM with NaBu feeding group was from 1 male and 3 female mice.

      For Fig 3, each dot in the box-and-dot plots represents result from one round of sorting. WT HL SCs were from 8 male and 6 female mice; G93A HL SCs were from 9 male and 5 female mice; WT diaphragm SCs were from 6 male and 3 female mice; G93A diaphragm SCs were from 12 male and 5 female mice. WT EOM SCs were from 6 batches of male and 1 batch of female mice (each batch contains 5-6 mice of the same gender). G93A EOM SCs were from 5 batches of male and 2 batches of female mice.

      *Please note these results were from sorting in which the FACS profiles were recorded. Not all rounds of sorting were with FACS profile recorded.

      For Fig 4A, each dot in the box-and-dot plots represents one image analyzed. For WT HL SCs, 94 images from 3 rounds of sorting; For WT Dia SCs, 107 images from 3 rounds of sorting; For WT EOM SCs, 75 images from 3 rounds of sorting; For G93A HL SCs, 96 images from 3 rounds of sorting; For G93A Dia SCs, 62 images from 3 rounds of sorting; For G93A EOM SCs, 79 images from 3 rounds of sorting. For the 3 rounds of sorting, 1 was from male and 2 were from female mice.

      *Please note that the number of mice used for sorting SCs in different muscles were specified in the Method Section in the revised manuscript. (Page 12, Line 489-493)

      For Fig 4B, each dot in the box-and-dot plots represents one image analyzed. For WT HL SCs, 52 images from 3 rounds of sorting; For WT Dia SCs, 51 images from 3 rounds of sorting; For WT EOM SCs, 51 images from 3 rounds of sorting; For G93A HL SCs, 52 images from 3 rounds of sorting; For G93A Dia SCs, 47 images from 3 rounds of sorting; For G93A EOM SCs, 56 images from 3 rounds of sorting. For the 3 rounds of sorting, 1 was from male and 2 were from female mice.

      For Fig 5A, each dot in the box-and-dot plots represents one replicate of culture. HL SCs were from male mice.

      For Fig 5B, each dot in the box-and-dot plots represents one image analyzed. For G93A HL SCs, 52 images from 3 rounds of sorting; 1-day NaBu treatment, 45 images from 3 rounds of sorting; 3-day NaBu treatment, 51 images from 3 rounds of sorting; For G93A Dia SCs, 47 images from 3 rounds of sorting; 1-day NaBu treatment, 60 images from 3 rounds of sorting; 3-day NaBu treatment, 57 images from 3 rounds of sorting. For the 3 rounds of sorting, 2 were from male and 1 was from female mice.

      For Fig 6, all samples used for bulk RNA-Seq were from female mice.

      For Fig 7C, each dot in the box-and-dot plots represents one replicate of culture. RNA samples were collected from 3-6 rounds of sorting and sorted cells were seeded into 3 dishes as replicates. WT HL SCs were from 3 male and 1 female mice. WT diaphragm SCs were from 2 male and 2 female mice; WT EOM SCs were from 3 male mice; G93A HL SCs were from 4 male and 2 female mice. G93A diaphragm SCs were from 1 male and 3 female mice; G93A EOM SCs were from 3 male mice.

      For Fig 7D, each dot in the box-and-dot plots represents one replicate of culture. RNA samples were collected from 6 rounds of sorting and sorted cells were seeded into 3 dishes as replicates. G93A HL SCs were from 4 male and 2 female mice; G93A diaphragm SCs were from 2 male and 4 female mice.

      For Fig 8D, each dot in the box-and-dot plot represents one neurite measured. HL and EOM SCs used for co-culture experiments were all from male mice.

      For Fig 9D, each dot in the box-and-dot plot represents one image analyzed. HL and EOM SCs used for co-culture experiments were all from male mice.

      For Figure 1-figure supplement 1, each dot in the box-and-dot plots represents quantification result from one mouse. Please also see Figure 1-table supplement 2. Briefly, muscles in WT and G93A groups were from 3 male and 3 female mice per group; G93A EDL with NaBu feeding group was from 3 male and 3 female mice. G93A soleus with NaBu feeding group was from 2 male and 3 female mice; G93A diaphragm with NaBu feeding group was from 2 male and 4 female mice; G93A EOM with NaBu feeding group was from 4 male and 2 female mice.

      The first paragraph of the results lacks a functional analysis of the motor decline of the animals after the administration of sodium butyrate. The authors, in fact, administered NaBu around 90 days of age while in previous work the drug had been administered at a pre-symptomatic age. It would therefore be useful, to make the message more effective, to characterize the locomotor functions of the treated animals in parallel with the histological evidence of the integrity of the NMJ.

      We are still in the process of collecting locomotor function data for G93A mice with and without NaBu treatment. We plan to report them in a future manuscript while this manuscript focuses on the molecular and histological aspect. Additionally, in the revised manuscript, we revised the rationale of the NaBu treatment starting after the disease onset. (Page 4, Line 131-134)

      “In the previous study, NaBu treatment initiated at a pre-symptomatic age delayed disease progression in G93A mice. As treatment of ALS patients is initiated after symptoms appear, we further tested whether NaBu treatment started after disease onset (at the age of 3 months, 2% NaBu in water for 1 month) was effective in preserving NMJ integrity.”

      Figure 5 should be completed with the administration of NaBu also to the satellite cells isolated from the WT mouse, the same for figure 9 where AAV-CMV-Cxcl12 transduction of WT myotubes is missing. We appreciate the reviewer’s suggestion of conducting the additional experiment with AAV-delivery of CXCL12 into the myotubes derived from the WT mice. Extensive studies by other investigators have been performed with butyrate on satellite cells derived from WT mice. To name a few here: Fiszman et al., 1980 (DOI: 10.1016/0014-4827(80)90467-X); Johnston et al., 1992 (DOI: 10.1128/mcb.12.11.5123-5130.1992); Lezzi et al., 2002 (DOI: 10.1073/pnas.112218599). To avoid performing redundant experiments, we focus on the effect of butyrate on the proliferation and differentiation of SCs derived from G93A mice. Thanks to the reviewer’s comment, we added additional discussion in the Results section (Page 6, line 216-217). Regarding the effect of Cxcl12, published studies have demonstrated its role in promoting axon growth. To name a few here: Negro et al., 2017 (DOI: 10.15252/emmm.201607257); Lieberam et al., 2005 (DOI: 10.1016/j.neuron.2005.08.011); Whitman et al., 2018 (DOI: 10.1167/iovs.18-25190). (Page 10, line 434, 440-442).

      In the experiment illustrated in Figure 8, treatment of cell cultures with NaBu would improve the outcome as well as the interference of Cxcl12 expression in myotubes derived from G93A EOM SC (Fig.9) would strengthen the specificity of this protein in axon guidance in this NMJ typical of a spared muscle in ALS.

      This is a great suggestion. Our study demonstrated the overexpression of CXCL12 in G93A myotube can enhance the axonal guidance and innervation of the co-cultured myotube/moto-neurons. We have also demonstrated the NaBu treatment can enhance the expression of CXCL12 and slow ALS progression. Combining NaBu treatment with CXCL12 overexpression may indeed have additive therapeutic benefits to slow ALS progression. We have added this statement in the revised Discussion. (Page 11, Line 466-468)

      In the "materials and methods" section the paragraph relating to the methods used for statistical analysis is missing.

      We have added it accordingly. (Page 15, Line 631-636)

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In their paper, Li et al. investigate the transcriptome of satellite cells obtained from different muscle types including hindlimb, diaphragm, and extraocular muscles (EOM) from wild-type and G93A transgenic mice (end-stage ALS) in order to identify potential factors involved in the maintenance of the neuromuscular junction. The underlying hypothesis is that since EOMs are largely spared from this debilitating disease, they may secrete NMJ-protective factors. The results of their transcriptome analysis identified several axon guidance molecules including the chemokine Cxcl12, which are particularly enriched in EOM-derived satellite cells. Transduction of hindlimb-derived satellite cells with AAV encoding Cxcl12 reverted hindlimb-derived myotubes from the G93A mice into myotubes sharing phenotypic characteristics similar to those of EOM-derived satellite cells. Additionally, the authors were able to demonstrate that EOM-derived satellite cell myotube cultures are capable of enhancing axon extensions and innervation in co-culture experiments.

      Strengths:

      The strength of the paper is that the authors successfully isolated and purified different populations of satellite cells, compared their transcriptomes, identified specific factors released by EOM-derived satellite cells, overexpressed one of these factors (the chemokine Cxcl12) by AAV-mediated transduction of hindlimb-derived satellite cells. The transduced cells were then able to support axon guidance and NMJ integrity. They also show that administration of Na butyrate to mice decreased NMJ denervation and satellite cell depletion of hind limbs. Furthermore, the addition of Na Butyrate to hindlimb-derived satellite cell myotube cultures increased Cxcl12 expression. These are impressive results providing important insights for the development of therapeutic targets to slow the loss of neuromuscular function characterizing ALS.

      Weaknesses:

      Several important aspects have not been addressed by the authors, these include the following points which weaken the conclusions and interpretation of the results.

      (a) Na Butyrate was shown to extend the survival of G93A mice by Zhang et al. Na butyrate has a variety of biological effects, for example, anti-inflammatory effects inhibit mitochondrial oxidative stress, positively influence mitochondrial function, is a class I / II HDAC inhibitor, etc. What is the mechanism underlying its beneficial effects both in the context of mouse muscle function in the ALS G93A mice and in the in vitro myotube assay? Cytokine quantification as well as histone acetylation/methylation can be assessed experimentally and this is an important point that has not been appropriately investigated.

      Great suggestion by the reviewer.

      Our previous publications (DOI: 10.3390/biom12020333; DOI: 10.3390/ijms22147412) have shown the beneficial roles of NaBu in ameliorating mitochondrial function in both motor neuron-like cells and adult muscle fibers. A focus of the current study is to test whether NaBu treatment also affect the SCs by regulating their gene transcription. Regarding the potential on HDAC/acetylation modification, there are previous studies by other investigators. We have added these references in the Discussion (Page 11, line 466-468).

      (b) In the context of satellite cell characterization, on lines 151-152 the authors state that soleus muscles were excluded from further studies since they have a higher content of slow twitch fibers and are more similar to the diaphragm. This justification is not valid in the context of ALS as well as many other muscle disorders. Indeed, soleus and diaphragm muscles contain a high proportion of slow twitch fibers (up to 80% and 50% respectively) but soleus muscles are more spared than diaphragm muscles. What makes soleus muscles (and EOMs) more resistant to ALS NMJ injury? Satellite cells from soleus muscles need to be characterized in detail as well.

      We agree with the reviewer’s comment that our original statement is misleading regarding the difference between soleus and diaphragm muscles in terms of the content of slow twitch fibers. Our histological studies revealed similar defects in denervation of diaphragm and soleus muscles derived from the G93A mice. Most importantly, the degree of NMJ degeneration and atrophy is less severe in soleus compared to other hindlimb muscles, such as EDL, during ALS progression. We have cited related studies such as Valdez et al., 2012 (DOI: 10.1371/journal.pone.0034640), Atkin et al., 2005 (DOI: 10.1016/j.nmd.2005.02.005). To avoid any confusion, we have removed the original statement and revised the paragraph (Page 4, line 159-162).

      “The three groups were determined because they represent the most severely affected, moderately affected and least affected muscles by ALS progression, respectively. Soleus was not included in the hindlimb SCs pool because its less affected than other hindlimb muscles based on our study and others [6,42].”

      Furthermore, EOMs are complex muscles, containing many types of fibers and expressing different myosin heavy chain isoforms and muscle proteins. The fact that in mice both the globular layer and orbital layers of EOMs express slow myosin heavy chain isoform as well as myosin heavy chain 2X, 2A, and 2B (Zhou et al., 2010 IOVIS 51:6355-6363) also indicates that the sparing is not directly linked to the fast or slow twitch nature of the muscle fiber. This needs to be considered.

      We greatly appreciate your suggestions and have included these points in the revised Discussion. “It is known that EOMs are complex muscles. Besides the developmental myosin isoforms, EOMs also express both adult fast and slow myosin contractile elements (Zhou et al., 2010 IOVIS 51:6355-6363), suggesting that the sparing may not be solely linked to the fast or slow twitch nature of the muscle fiber, rather the changes in SCs may play a pivotal role in preserving the EOM function during the progression of ALS. ” (Page 9, line 389-392)

      (c) In the context of myotube formation from cultured satellite cells on lines 178-179 the authors stained the myotubes for myosin heavy chain. Because of the diversity of myosin heavy chain isoforms and different muscle origins of the satellite cells investigated, the isoform of myosin heavy chain expressed by the myotubes needs to be tested and described. It is not sufficient to state anti-MYH.

      We used the pan-anti-MYH antibody (MF20 from DSHB) for the immunostaining of myosin heavy chain for identification of the differentiated myotubes. As described in the commercial website: https://dshb.biology.uiowa.edu/MF-20), FM20 recognizes all myosin heavy chain isoforms. We are happy to examine whether specific myosin heavy chain isoforms may contribute to the differences observed in future studies.

      (d) The original RNAseq results have not been deposited and while it is true that the authors have analyzed the results and described them in Figures 6 and 7 and relative supplements, the original data needs to be shown both as an xls list as a Volcano plots (q value versus log2 fold change). This will facilitate the independent interpretation of the results by the readers as some transcripts may not be listed. As presented it is rather difficult to identify which transcripts aside from Cxcl12 are commonly upregulated. Can the data be presented in a more visual way?

      We have uploaded the Fastq files and the text files containing TPM values to the Gene Expression Omnibus (GEO) database and included the GEO access number GSE249484 in the revised text. Per recommendation of the reviewer, we have added supplementary tables for Figure 6, to list the top 20 differentially expressed genes (ranked by Log2FC, both the upregulated and downregulated) comparing 1) EOM SCs to their hindlimb and diaphragm counterparts (Figure 6-table supplement 1); 2) G93A SCs to WT SCs of the same muscle origin (Figure 6-table supplement 2); 3) G93A hindlimb and diaphragm SCs with 3 day-NaBu treatment to those without (Figure 6-table supplement 3). (Page 6, Line 237-257)

      (e) There is no section describing the statistical analysis methods used. In many figures, more than 2 groups are compared so the authors need to use an ANOVA followed by a post hoc test.

      Thank for the comments. We have added it accordingly. (Page 15, Line 631-636)

      The authors have achieved their aim in showing that satellite cells derived from EOMs have a distinct transcriptome and that this may be the basis of their sparing in ALS. Furthermore, this work may help develop future therapeutic interventions for patients with ALS.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The prevailing hypothesis of ALS is that motoneuron degeneration subsequently induces muscle atrophy and wasting. However, evidence also suggests that ALS is a muscle disease independent of motoneuron degeneration. The results from the current study support the latter. The RNA-seq data from cultured myoblasts (without innervation) suggest cell cell-autonomous effect of G93A on muscle cells. While the current analyses in this study identify axon guidance pathways in EOM satellite cells that may underlie their unique gene program that enhances motoneuron function, the powerfulness of the RNA-seq data is underutilized. I suggest that the authors explore the RNA-seq further by comparing genes and pathways altered by G93A in various muscles to better pinpoint how G93A influences satellite cell function.

      Thanks for the comments and advice. Further analysis of the RNA-seq data is planned. As our original sequencing provider became unavailable to us since last year, we are currently negotiating with other sequencing providers. We have deposited the raw data files into the GEO database (GSE249484) to foster further analyses by other researcher teams.

      To address the reviewer’s concern, we have added three more supplementary tables for Figure 6, which list the top 20 differentially expressed genes (DEG) (ranked by Log2FC, both the upregulated and downregulated) comparing 1) EOM SCs to their hindlimb and diaphragm counterparts (new Figure 6-table supplement 1); 2) G93A SCs to WT SCs of the same muscle origin (new Figure 6-table supplement 2); 3) G93A hindlimb and diaphragm SCs with and without 3 day-NaBu treatment (new Figure 6-table supplement 3). These three DEG lists are discussed in the results section of the revised manuscript as following (Page 6, Line 237-257).

      Figure 4 presentation could be improved by adopting a similar comparison (WT vs G93A) as used in Figure 1-3. The current comparison is not straightforward. In addition, a magnified image of panel A would demonstrate the loss of myoblast homeostasis more clearly. (AKA Figure 2B)

      The WT vs G93A comparison was presented in the supplementary figure of Figure 4 (Figure 4-figure supplement 1 in the previous version, and now in Figure 4-figure supplement 2 in the revised version).

      As requested, we have added magnified single channel representative images of cultured SCs in the new Figure 4-figure supplement 1 in the revised manuscript.

      Co-culture results in Figure 8 are very impressive. It would be nice if the data were quantified. The figure legend states that panel D is the quantification, but I don't see panel D. As the study used rat motoneurons (presumably SOD1 wildtype), it is unknown if G93A motoneurons would respond to muscle-derived CXCL12 similarly to the wildtype motoneurons. This information is crucial for understanding whether the SOD1 mutant ALS1 is a motoneuron disease or muscle disease or both. Some discussion should be provided to reflect the limitation (of not including G93A motoneurons in the coculture).

      Panel D (the quantification data) was presented in the original figure setting (but may not be obvious). We have now revised Figure 8 to enlarge panel D to clearly present the quantification data.

      We acknowledge the limitation of not including mutant G93A motor neurons in the coculture assay, and have added this important point (and our future plans to do so) in the discussion section of the revised manuscript: (Page 11, Line 445-448)

      “However, it is possible that motor neurons carrying ALS mutations may respond differently to Cxcl12 mediated axon guidance than WT motor neurons. This is a limitation of the current study, which will be investigated in future co-culture studies.”

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Line 108. The sentence: "Z-stack scans of glycerol-cleared 109 whole muscles were obtained using a high working distance lens in a confocal microscope. The z-stacks were compacted into 2D images by maximal intensity projection" and should be moved to the material and methods section.

      Removed from the Result section and added to the Method section as recommended (Page 13, Line 564-568).

      Linea 113. The sentence: " In order to quantify the extent of denervation in a categorical manner, NMJs were arbitrarily defined as "well innervated" if SYP staining was present in >60% of the BTX positive area, "partially innervated" if between 60% and 30%, and "poorly innervated" if SYP staining corresponded to less than 30% of the BTX positive area" has already been written in the figure legend.

      Thanks for the advice. We have rephrased the sentence to remove the redundant part.

      In lines 445-7, it would be better to indicate the enzymatic units instead of the concentrations.

      We included enzymatic units for the four enzymes in the Methods Section of revised manuscript (Page 12, Line 497-499).

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for The Authors):

      There are several points that need to be addressed by the authors including:

      (a) The authors need to provide experimental evidence as to the mode of action of Na Butyrate and more specifically whether its beneficial effect is mediated by its anti-inflammatory action, inhibition of HDACs, or the combination of several mechanisms. Additionally, it should be clearer why Na Butyrate was administered. The sentence referring to reference 36 is not sufficient and some mechanistic insight needs to be provided in the results section.

      Thanks for the great suggestion. We have revised the Results section accordingly to clarify the rationale for NaBu usage (please also see our detailed response to your suggestion above). (Page 4, line 131-134)

      (b) Their reason for excluding soleus-derived-satellite cells from the analysis is not valid. Soleus muscles are "more" speared than diaphragm muscles and analysis may help shed light on this observation.

      Please see our response to your question (b) in the above public review section.

      (c) DATA AVAILABILITY: The RNAseq raw untransformed data has not been provided and Volcano plots are also not shown. I find it quite difficult to follow the results of the RNAseq experiments and this is central to the interpretation of the paper's results. Ideally, one should be able to look at the data and draw his/her own conclusions but as it stands this is difficult to do.

      We have uploaded the raw FastQ files and the excel files containing TPM values to the GEO database with the access number GSE249484.

      (d) A detailed description of all statistical tests that were used needs to be provided.

      Yes, this has been added to the revised manuscript.

      (e) Many figure legends are incomplete and some panels are not described appropriately, indicating that the authors need to thoroughly revise all aspects of the manuscript.

      We have extensively edited the figure legends to address the issues raised by reviewers.

      (f) Line 96-98: it is unlikely that muscles from ALS patients will be biopsied frequently. Furthermore, what biomarkers exactly could be followed in patients in response to therapy? This is unclear.

      While it is true that it is not generally part of the diagnostic workup for ALS, muscle biopsy is increasingly being used pre- and post-treatment in ALS clinical trials to examine responses to potential new therapies. Muscle biopsy is also being explored in several ongoing studies as a potential ALS-relevant peripheral tissue amenable to biopsy (as opposed to brain or spinal cord) for predictive, pharmacodynamic, and prognostic biomarkers. This includes studies attempting to recapitulate pathophysiological patient clusters observed in CNS autopsy tissues and studies to detect aberrant TDP-43 aggregates in intramuscular nerve twigs, among others. Indeed, Dr. Ostrow’s clinical duties include performing muscle biopsies and interpreting muscle pathology, and he is involved in several ongoing studies attempting to correlate postmortem CNS and muscle analyses for these purposes.

      To avoid potential controversy on the feasibility of multiple biopsies, we rephrased the sentence as follows (Page 3, Line 96-98)

      “Characterizing the distinct EOM SC transcriptomic pattern could provide clues for identifying potential biomarkers in therapeutic trials in both ALS patients and animal models, in addition to identifying therapeutic targets.”

      (g) Line 388-389. What do the authors mean by this sentence? It is not clear.

      Thanks for the comment, we have expended the discussion to make it clearer in the revision. (Page 10, Line 428-431)

      “It is possible that the more frequent self-renewal and spontaneous activation of EOM SCs contribute to higher rate of mitochondrial DNA replication, leading to accelerated spreading of mitochondrial DNA defects, resulting in higher proportion of COX-deficient myofibers than other muscles”.

      (h) Were the experimenters blinded as to the results shown in Figures 2, 7, 8, and 9?

      We endeavored to blind experiments whenever possible. Not all experiments were blinded due to logistic complexity and the clear difference in microscopic and gross appearances of wild-type and mutant muscle. The differences observed in Figures 2, 7, 8, 9 are qualitative (ie more than just quantitative), which should minimize the impact of possible human bias. Additionally, we employed multiple different experimental approaches to assess our hypotheses.

      For Fig 2, the physical appearance is notably different between G93A and WT muscles. The different innervation status (Fig 2A) is also not amenable to blinding.

      For Fig 7, the expression level of Hmga2, Notch3 and Cxcl12 detected by the qPCR assay are substantially greater in EOM derived SCs than counterparts from other muscles, and these results are also consistent with RNA-Seq, immunofluorescence assays. For Fig 8, the overexpression of Cxcl12 and the coculture with EOM SC derived myotubes not only increased the length of the longest neurites but also promoted axon branching, which can be easily observed.

      For Fig 9, only the EOM SC derived myotubes were capable of aligning the neurites along with them on a global scale. This qualitative difference is easy to appreciate, even under low magnification.

      (i) Line 64 -65 The authors refer to a very old paper by Fischer et al in 2002 for the expression profile of EOMs. There are more recent papers including that of Eckhardt et al. (eLife 2023, 12:e83618) showing the differences in proteome between EOMs and soleus and EOMs and EDL muscles. There are more than 2000 (and not 300!!) differentially expressed proteins.

      Thank you for the newly published reference. We have revised the Introduction section to include this new proteomic study. (Page 2, Line 64-69)

      (j) Figure 7 C. The Y axis is mislabeled as they should be log2 fold change and not the growth conditions.

      Thank you for catching this. We have fixed it.

      (k) In all figures, if each symbol represents the results obtained on 1 mouse, this needs to be clearly stated. What do the panels on the right of Figures 4 and 5B show?

      Thanks for the comments. For Figure 1B and 2C, as well as Figure 1-figure supplement 1B, one dot in the box-and-dot plots represents result obtained from 1 mouse. For Figure 3B, one dot represents one round of sorting. Generally, one mouse was euthanized for each round of sorting for HL and diaphragm SCs. But the sorting of EOM SCs could take up to 6 mice (as the EOMs are much smaller). For Figure 4 and 5B, each dot represents one image analyzed. All images were collected from three rounds of sorting. For Figure 5A, each dot represents one replicate of culture. For Figure 5B, each dot represents one image analyzed. All images were collected from three rounds of sorting. We have indicated those details in the revision.

      Please also see our response to the 1st question of Reviewer 2 in the public review section.

      (l) Figure 6 Table supplement 3 does NOT show the FDR but only the log2 fold change. Please amend.

      We have amended the supplementary table accordingly.

    1. Author Response

      We would like to thank the editors for giving us an opportunity to address the insightful comments made by the referees. In our response to the comments, we provide a guide to important information that may have been overlooked, and hope to elaborate on the context for better evaluating this study.

      As mentioned in the introduction of our manuscript, mosquito-transmitted diseases cause nearly a million deaths every year and significant worldwide morbidity. Moreover, the geographical range of mosquito vectors is rapidly expanding due to climate change and mosquito-borne disease risks are emerging in new parts of the world. DEET was discovered in the 1940s and has remained the primary insect repellent for >70 years in the developed world. The US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) regulates mosquito repellents, and DEET-based commercial products are typically assigned protection times that vary with concentration. Products with lower concentration need repeated applications, whereas those with higher concentrations feel oily and cost more.

      We also mentioned that DEET inhibits mammalian cation channels and human acetylcholinesterase. The latter is a target of carbamate insecticides that are commonly used in disease-endemic areas, raising additional concerns about prolonged use of DEET. DEET is also a solvent and damages several forms of plastics, synthetic fabrics, and painted . Unfortunately, DEET has been of little value in disease control in Africa and Asia. Even in developed countries, a natural, cosmetically pleasant alternative could benefit millions of people who currently avoid repellents.

      Innovation in finding new repellents has been slow due to limitations in current research approaches and high costs for EPA registration (specially for synthetic compounds). Since DEET only five additional actives have been approved by the EPA for repellent products. In the 20+ years since discovery of insect odorant receptors from genomes, not a single novel repellent compound has been identified registered by the EPA. Thus, there is a both a strong need for new approaches to find insect repellents and need for new active ingredients that are safe and strategically effective. In fact, this goal of finding new mosquito repellents has been the topic of multiple Gates Foundation Grand Challenge grants, and numerous NIH funded grants to many research groups around the world.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, the authors set up a pipeline to predict insect repellents that are pleasant and safe for humans. This is done by daisy-chaining a new classification model based on predicting repellents with a published model on predicting human perception. Models use a feature-engineered selection of chemical features to make their predictions. The predicted molecules are then validated against a proxy humanoid (heated brick) and its safety is tested by molecular assays of human cells. The humanistic approach to modeling these authors have taken (which considers cosmetic/aesthetic appeal and safety) is novel and a necessary step for consumer usage. However, the importance of pleasantness over effectiveness is still up for debate (DEET is unpleasant but still used often) and the generalization of safety tests is unknown and assumed. The effectiveness of the prediction models is also still warranted. They pass the authors' own behavioral tests, but their contribution to the field is unknown as both models (new and published) have not been rigorously benchmarked to previous models. Moreover, the author's breadth of literature in this field is sparse, ignoring directly related studies.

      Strengths:

      Humanistic approach to modeling considers pleasantness and safety. Chaining models can help limit the candidate odorants from the vastness of odor space.

      Weaknesses:

      The current models need to be bench-marked against leading models predicting similar outcomes. Similarly, many of these papers need to be addressed and discussed in the introduction. The authors might even consider their data sources for model training to increase performance and lexical categorization for interoperability. For instance, the Dravnikes data lexicon, currently used in the human perception lexicon, has been highly criticized for its overlapping and hard-to-interpret descriptive terms ("FRAGRANT", "AROMATIC").

      Human Perception:

      Khan, R. M., Luk, C. H., Flinker, A., Aggarwal, A., Lapid, H., Haddad, R., & Sobel, N. (2007). Predicting odor pleasantness from odorant structure: pleasantness as a reflection of the physical world. Journal of Neuroscience, 27(37), 10015-10023.

      Keller, A., Gerkin, R. C., Guan, Y., Dhurandhar, A., Turu, G., Szalai, B., ... & Meyer, P. (2017). Predicting human olfactory perception from chemical features of odor molecules. Science, 355(6327), 820-826.

      Gutiérrez, E. D., Dhurandhar, A., Keller, A., Meyer, P., & Cecchi, G. A. (2018). Predicting natural language descriptions of mono-molecular odorants. Nature communications, 9(1), 4979.

      Lee, B. K., Mayhew, E. J., Sanchez-Lengeling, B., Wei, J. N., Qian, W. W., Little, K. A., ... & Wiltschko, A. B. (2023). A principal odor map unifies diverse tasks in olfactory perception. Science, 381(6661), 999-1006.

      Author Response: The human perception predictions were performed using models that we had reported in two earlier publications: Kowalewski & Ray, iScience (2020b) and Kowalewski, Huynh & Ray, Chem. Senses (2021). Three of the four references pointed out by the referee were cited in these prior studies, which involved computational validation by predicting on a test set of the data which was left out of training (as typically done), and also predicting across different human studies with a high degree of success. A rigorous benchmarking of the odor perception models was done in Kowalewski, Huynh & Ray, Chem. Senses (2021) and a mini-review published in the same issue of the journal by Gerkin, Chem. Senses, (2021). This included a favorable comparison with the two references indicated by the referee: Keller et al. Science (2017) as well as the Gutiérrez et. al. Nat. Communication (2018). The 4th reference, Lee et al, Science (2023) describes a neural network approach and was published much after our mosquito behavior studies were completed. Although using an advanced Neural network model Lee et al. worked with 2-D structures of compounds in contrast to our 3-D approach. They also did not report cross-study validations or comparisons with Keller et al, 2017 or benchmark to past studies, so it is difficult to compare advances if any.

      The intent of the current study was to move beyond testing approaches, of which there are many, and instead work on a practical use case. As we see it, it is not necessarily the prediction of fragrance character or quality alone that matters but overlap with other predicted bioactivities. From the perspective of human use, a molecule with a pleasing scent that also repels insects is likely to be far more useful than one with an unappealing scent. Accordingly, our task in this study was to select molecules that fit into specific use categories: display strong insect repellency, have pleasing scent profiles, are natural in origin and are potentially repurposed from flavors and fragrances.

      Insect Repellents:

      Wright, R. H. (1956). Physical basis of insect repellency. Nature, 178(4534), 638-638.

      Katritzky, A. R., Wang, Z., Slavov, S., Tsikolia, M., Dobchev, D., Akhmedov, N. G., ... & Linthicum, K. J. (2008). Synthesis and bioassay of improved mosquito repellents predicted from chemical structure. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 105(21), 7359-7364.

      Bernier, U. R., & Tsikolia, M. (2011). Development of Novel Repellents Using Structure− Activity Modeling of Compounds in the USDA Archival Database. In Recent Developments in Invertebrate Repellents (pp. 21-46). American Chemical Society.

      Author response: The Katritzky et. al. PNAS (2008) paper is cited in our study, and we have indicated that the chemical analogs reported therein are part of the training data set in our study. We thank the reviewer for pointing us to the book chapter by Bernier & Tsikolia (2011), which reviews the QSAR approaches taken for repellent discovery and in large measure focuses on the Katritzky et. al. PNAS (2008) paper. We did cite two relevant studies by Uli Bernier, but agree that citation of the book chapter would make a nice addition.

      The current study assumes that insect repellents repel via their odor valence to the insect, but this is not accurate. Insect repellents also mask the body odor of humans making them hard to locate. The authors need to consult the literature to understand the localization and landing mechanisms of insects to their hosts. Here, they will understand that heat alone is not the attractant as their behavioral assay would have you believe. I suggest the authors test other behaviour assays to show more convincing evidence of effectiveness. See the following studies:

      De Obaldia, M. E., Morita, T., Dedmon, L. C., Boehmler, D. J., Jiang, C. S., Zeledon, E. V., ... & Vosshall, L. B. (2022). Differential mosquito attraction to humans is associated with skin-derived carboxylic acid levels. Cell, 185(22), 4099-4116.

      McBride, C. S., Baier, F., Omondi, A. B., Spitzer, S. A., Lutomiah, J., Sang, R., ... & Vosshall, L. B. (2014). Evolution of mosquito preference for humans linked to an odorant receptor. Nature, 515(7526), 222-227.

      Wei, J. N., Vlot, M., Sanchez-Lengeling, B., Lee, B. K., Berning, L., Vos, M. W., ... & Dechering, K. J. (2022). A deep learning and digital archaeology approach for mosquito repellent discovery. bioRxiv, 2022-09.

      Author response: In this study we took an unbiased approach to compile the training data set, including several known insect repellents of varying chemical structures and volatility, for most of which there is no information on how they are sensed by insects. Not surprisingly, the repellents we identified are varied in structure and in functional groups, and are likely detected in more than one way by the mosquitoes, using olfactory and/or gustatory systems. We did not consider “masking” of skin attraction as a factor in the training data set in this study, which precluded the need to discuss the papers pointed out by the referee in any detail. In fact there is an extremely vast and rich body of literature regarding human skin odor, CO2 and breath emanations, which includes our own contributions of research and review articles that are not discussed in the current paper.

      We did in fact conduct human arm-in-cage experiments with a few of the compounds reported in this study using female Aedes aegypti mosquitoes; a preprint describes the smaller scale analysis, the results of which show strong repellency, in Boyle et. al. bioRxiv (2016) https://doi.org/10.1101/060178 (Figure 4). However, heat offers a practical proxy for evaluating prospective repellents in a high-throughput manner. It would certainly be desirable to further evaluate additional candidates from the heat attraction assay with human subjects in the future.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out the preprint by Wei, et. al. bioRxiv (2022). Our approaches differ in that Wei et al do not consider properties such as fragrance and toxicity. We also cannot assume that their newer neural network model is superior because although the model uses a large training dataset, it does not use 3D chemical structures that are extremely relevant for biological activity. While very little information is available for the actives reported in Wei et. al., we independently evaluated their top compounds similar or better than DEET (CAS#3731-16-6, 4282-32-0, 2040-04-2, 32940-15-1 and 3446-90-0) and could not find information about toxicity, smell, or natural source. In contrast, the top repellents that we identify here as similar or better than DEET (N=8) are all classified as GRAS (Generally Regarded as Safe) compounds by the Flavor and Extract Manufacturers (FEMA), are all naturally occurring (plum, jasmin, mushroom, grapes, etc), and have pleasant smells. The Dermal toxicity values in rabbits are known for six of our compounds and are at the best possible levels (5000mg/kg).

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This is an interesting study that seeks to identify novel mosquito repellents that smell attractive to humans.

      Strengths:

      The combination of standard machine learning methods with mosquito behavioral tests is a strength.

      Weaknesses:

      The study would be strengthened by describing how other modern ML approaches (RF, decision trees) would classify and identify other potential repellents.

      Author response: The current approach already shows a success rate >85% for repellency coefficient >0.5 and identifies eight naturally occurring GRAS compounds with repellency as strong as or greater than DEET. This substantially expands the repertoire of strong natural repellents. Since the 1950s only six active ingredients have been registered by US EPA for use in topical repellents, of which only two are natural in origin (Oil of lemon eucalyptus and catmint oil) and they typically do not protect as well as DEET does. That being said, we have since explored other predictive algorithms, for instance Neural Networks. The experimental evaluation of these newer pipelines will take significant resources and time and will be the focus of future grants.

      A comparison in the repellent activity between DEET and the top ten hits identified in this new study indicates little change in repellent activity (~3%), suggesting that DEET remains the gold standard. Without additional toxicity tests, the study is arguably incremental. The study's novelty should be better clarified.

      Author response: There is an urgent need to find new insect repellents that have better chances of being adopted by people who avoid DEET, such as in Africa and Asia. Having more natural actives that are effective, expands the tools against disease transmitting mosquitoes. As mentioned above, the top repellents that we identified as similar to or better than DEET (N=8) are all classified as GRAS (Generally Regarded as Safe) compounds by the Flavor and Extract Manufacturers (FEMA), are all naturally occurring (plum, jasmin, mushroom, grapes), and have pleasant smells. The Dermal toxicity values in rabbits are known for six and they are of the best possible levels (5000mg/kg).

      The Methods in the repellency tests are sparse, and more information would be useful. Testing the top repellents at low doses (<<1%) and for long periods (2-12 h) would strengthen the manuscript. Without this information, the manuscript is lacking in depth.

      Author response: The US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) regulates mosquito repellents, and DEET-based commercial products are typically assigned protection times that vary with concentration (10% ~2 hrs, 30% ~5hrs, 100% ~8hrs). These would be the relevant concentrations for testing protection times on human volunteers, not lower as suggested. Such studies fall within the realm of EPA registration efforts, involving extensive GLP-testing for safety, physical chemistry, and Human Subjects Board approvals. This is outside the scope of the current study and is typically accomplished during development efforts.

      Testing human subjects on their olfactory perceptions of the repellents would also increase the depth and utility of the manuscript. Without additional experiments, the authors' conclusions lack support and have limited impact on the state-of-the-art.

      This manuscript is a mix of different approaches, which makes it lack cohesion. There is the ML method for classifying new repellents that smell good, but no testing of the repellents on human volunteers. The repellents are not tested at realistic concentrations and durations. And the calcium mobilization test is strange and makes little sense in the context of the other experiments and framing of the manuscript.

      Author response: The human olfaction validation that we present in this paper is consistent with most current publications in the field (for example, Keller et al, Gutiérrez et al.). More systematic validation of the human odor character prediction pipelines used was presented in two previous papers Kowalewski & Ray, iScience (2020b) and Kowalewski, Huynh & Ray, Chem. Senses (2021) and a mini-review published in the same issue of the journal by Gerkin, Chem. Senses, (2021).

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      While I am not a specialist in this field, I do have some knowledge of the subject matter and the computational aspects involved. The authors employ simple machine learning techniques (such as SVM) for the following purposes:

      (a) Prediction of aversive valence.

      (b) Predicting anti-repellent chemicals.

      (c) Predicting calcium mobilization.

      The approach is commonplace in chemoinformatics literature.

      Weaknesses:

      • All the above models are presented discretely, making it difficult to discern experiment design principles and connectedness.

      • The ML work is rudimentary, lacking adequate details. Chemoinformatics has reached great heights, and SVM does not seem contemporary.

      • There is significant existing research on finding repellents.

      Author response: In the current study, we aimed to showcase how computational research may be combined with basic science to create scalable pipelines that address real world problems, rather than to demonstrate methodological novelty of chemoinformatics approaches. Specifically we wanted to use different predictive models to identify compounds that display strong insect repellency, have pleasing scent profiles, are natural in origin and are potentially repurposed from flavors and fragrances. Unfortunately, there is very little existing research on insect repellents that have these types of properties, which would make them better candidates for EPA registration. Most tested compounds are synthetic, and are often analogs of known repellents like DEET, and necessitate substantial time and resources to register. Moreover the identities of chemosensory receptors that are responsible for repellency to DEET and other compounds, and that are conserved across Anopheles, Aedes and Culex mosquitoes are not known.

      It is true that the field of cheminformatics has experimented with a variety of newer approaches, based in part on neural networks (e.g., Graph Neural Networks and graph embeddings to encode chemical structure rather than a more conventional Extended Connectivity Fingerprint (ECFP)). Importantly, however, novelty does not imply usefulness. The mosquito behavior experiments that we present show a very high success rate (>85%), validating our approach and identifying several excellent candidates already.

      Strengths:

      • Authors attempt to make a case for calcium mobilization in the context of repellency. This aspect sounds interesting but is not surprising.

      • Behavioral profiling of repellents could be useful.

      Author Comment: We thank the referee for this comment. We have indeed done behavioral profiling for several repellents that evoke calcium mobilization, but we do not see any clear correlation thus far.

    2. Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, the authors set up a pipeline to predict insect repellents that are pleasant and safe for humans. This is done by daisy-chaining a new classification model based on predicting repellents with a published model on predicting human perception. Models use a feature-engineered selection of chemical features to make their predictions. The predicted molecules are then validated against a proxy humanoid (heated brick) and its safety is tested by molecular assays of human cells. The humanistic approach to modeling these authors have taken (which considers cosmetic/aesthetic appeal and safety) is novel and a necessary step for consumer usage. However, the importance of pleasantness over effectiveness is still up for debate (DEET is unpleasant but still used often) and the generalization of safety tests is unknown and assumed. The effectiveness of the prediction models is also still warranted. They pass the authors' own behavioral tests, but their contribution to the field is unknown as both models (new and published) have not been rigorously benchmarked to previous models. Moreover, the author's breadth of literature in this field is sparse, ignoring directly related studies.

      Strengths:

      Humanistic approach to modeling considers pleasantness and safety. Chaining models can help limit the candidate odorants from the vastness of odor space.

      Weaknesses:

      The current models need to be bench-marked against leading models predicting similar outcomes. Similarly, many of these papers need to be addressed and discussed in the introduction. The authors might even consider their data sources for model training to increase performance and lexical categorization for interoperability. For instance, the Dravnikes data lexicon, currently used in the human perception lexicon, has been highly criticized for its overlapping and hard-to-interpret descriptive terms ("FRAGRANT", "AROMATIC").

      Human Perception

      Khan, R. M., Luk, C. H., Flinker, A., Aggarwal, A., Lapid, H., Haddad, R., & Sobel, N. (2007). Predicting odor pleasantness from odorant structure: pleasantness as a reflection of the physical world. Journal of Neuroscience, 27(37), 10015-10023.

      Keller, A., Gerkin, R. C., Guan, Y., Dhurandhar, A., Turu, G., Szalai, B., ... & Meyer, P. (2017). Predicting human olfactory perception from chemical features of odor molecules. Science, 355(6327), 820-826.

      Gutiérrez, E. D., Dhurandhar, A., Keller, A., Meyer, P., & Cecchi, G. A. (2018). Predicting natural language descriptions of mono-molecular odorants. Nature communications, 9(1), 4979.

      Lee, B. K., Mayhew, E. J., Sanchez-Lengeling, B., Wei, J. N., Qian, W. W., Little, K. A., ... & Wiltschko, A. B. (2023). A principal odor map unifies diverse tasks in olfactory perception. Science, 381(6661), 999-1006.<br /> Related cleaned data: https://github.com/BioMachineLearning/openpom

      Insect Repellents:

      Wright, R. H. (1956). Physical basis of insect repellency. Nature, 178(4534), 638-638.

      Katritzky, A. R., Wang, Z., Slavov, S., Tsikolia, M., Dobchev, D., Akhmedov, N. G., ... & Linthicum, K. J. (2008). Synthesis and bioassay of improved mosquito repellents predicted from chemical structure. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 105(21), 7359-7364.

      Bernier, U. R., & Tsikolia, M. (2011). Development of Novel Repellents Using Structure− Activity Modeling of Compounds in the USDA Archival Database. In Recent Developments in Invertebrate Repellents (pp. 21-46). American Chemical Society.

      Wei, J. N., Vlot, M., Sanchez-Lengeling, B., Lee, B. K., Berning, L., Vos, M. W., ... & Dechering, K. J. (2022). A deep learning and digital archaeology approach for mosquito repellent discovery. bioRxiv, 2022-09.

      The current study assumes that insect repellents repel via their odor valence to the insect, but this is not accurate. Insect repellents also mask the body odor of humans making them hard to locate. The authors need to consult the literature to understand the localization and landing mechanisms of insects to their hosts. Here, they will understand that heat alone is not the attractant as their behavioral assay would have you believe. I suggest the authors test other behaviour assays to show more convincing evidence of effectiveness. See the following studies:

      De Obaldia, M. E., Morita, T., Dedmon, L. C., Boehmler, D. J., Jiang, C. S., Zeledon, E. V., ... & Vosshall, L. B. (2022). Differential mosquito attraction to humans is associated with skin-derived carboxylic acid levels. Cell, 185(22), 4099-4116.

      McBride, C. S., Baier, F., Omondi, A. B., Spitzer, S. A., Lutomiah, J., Sang, R., ... & Vosshall, L. B. (2014). Evolution of mosquito preference for humans linked to an odorant receptor. Nature, 515(7526), 222-227.

      Wei, J. N., Vlot, M., Sanchez-Lengeling, B., Lee, B. K., Berning, L., Vos, M. W., ... & Dechering, K. J. (2022). A deep learning and digital archaeology approach for mosquito repellent discovery. bioRxiv, 2022-09.

    1. Note: This preprint has been reviewed by subject experts for Review Commons. Content has not been altered except for formatting.

      Learn more at Review Commons


      Referee #2

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      Summary

      In this paper the authors present a new cKO mouse model for PCDH10-related ASD. This model consists of the ablation of PCDH10 specifically in interneurons of the basolateral complex. Interestingly, the use of this mouse model together with a complete KO adds evidence towards an excitatory/inhibitory imbalance causing the ASD phenotype, rather than the complete ablation of a protein (in this case PCDH10). Firstly, the developmental dynamics of PCDH10 are measured with diverse techniques. The presence of PCDH10 at embryonic stages in different areas of the basal forebrain. Here it is made clear why the specific downregulation of PCDH10 in Gsh2- lineage interneurons. The cKO mouse model is validated with bulk RNA sequencing fluorescence imaging of the eGFP reporter in the telencephalon. The KO mouse model is validated with WB assay showing the gradual decrease of PCDH10 in Het and Ho mice. Secondly, the USV emitted by isolated pups throughout development (P3, P6, P9 and P12) are analysed with different parameters in both mouse models.

      Major Comments

      1. The role of anxiety in the phenotype described in this work should be supported by behavioural experiments in adulthood (Open field/light/dark/Plus Maze test)2-3M for mice to reach the appropriate age + 2 weeks for performing the experiments and extracting results.
      2. The WB in panel F1C&E should be done with non-pooled biological replicates to be informative 3 weeks
      3. The statistical test used for F2B and F3D-I needs to be specified.
      4. The reduced GABA input in the amygdala that is hypothesized to be causing the phenotype could be studied by iPSP analysis through LFP (OPTIONAL) 1M

      Minor comments

      1. The results section should be subdivided in sections corresponding to each figure
      2. Detail the pinhole opening in M&M used for the imaging of the images in panel of Figure 1 M-R
      3. The group size and the power calculation used to determine it should be detailed in M&M
      4. The WB membrane image in Panel 1F has saturated pixels, the image needs to be changed
      5. Instead of asterisks, writing the exact p-value is more informative in the graphs
      6. Figure 1B & D: detail what the Pcdh10 levels are normalised to. In the legend there's a typo "no-way ANOVA"
      7. Figure 1F: specify what it means P17.5 (norm)
      8. Figures 3-4: choose higher contrast colours for an easier readability and more accessibility.
      9. Figure 3B: the WB image needs to be at a higher resolution
      10. Figure 3C: the colour coding for dBFS in the spectrogram needs to be specified in the maximum and minimum number.
      11. Figure 3D-I & 6G: results would be more clear if shown as a ratio of the WT (would be also more evident the mouse model differences). Also the titles of the graphs are misleading, as the graphs are showing data from all the genotypes of the mouse models.
      12. Figure 2B: specify what it is normalised to
      13. Figure 4 E-H: it is not described what the dotted lines correspond to.
      14. In all the figures, the panels are excessively subdivided, the following panels should be grouped in one:
        • a. Figure 1: i. C & E are showing the same data

      ii. G-I are showing the same data

      iii. J-L are showing the same data

      iv. M-R are showing the same data - b. Figure 2: panel 2C-G are showing the same data - c. Figure 3: i. A-B are showing the same data

      ii. D-I are showing the same data - d. Figure 4: i. A-C are showing the same data

      ii. E-H are showing the same data - e. Figure 5: the frequency parameters (A-E) should be all 1 panel f. Figure 6: B-E are showing the same data

      Significance

      The detailed study of the socio-affective communication of these mouse models is accurate and quite informative. There is still a big body of work to do for classifying and using pup USV as biomarkers for mouse model phenotyping, and this thorough work is a step forward. This type of work will be of interest to neurodevelopmental neuroscientists interested in behaviour and mouse model phenotyping. However, the claim of an autistic-like phenotype would be much stronger with additional behavioural assessments in adulthood (as USV in mating behaviour, social novelty recognition and stereotypical behaviours). In addition, the hypothesis of an excitation/inhibition imbalance is interesting, but correlational in this work. Further experiments would need to be done to prove causality.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife assessment

      This study presents valuable findings on diabetogenic risk from colorectal cancer (CRC) treatment. The authors claim that postoperative screening for type 2 diabetes should be prioritized in CRC survivors with overweight/obesity, irrespective of the oncological treatment received. The evidence supporting the claims is solid but requires confirmation in different populations. These results have theoretical or practical implications and will be of interest to endocrinologists, oncologists, general practitioners, gastrointestinal surgeons, and policymakers working on CRC and diabetes.

      Author response: We thank you for taking the time to provide constructive feedback on our manuscript and for the useful suggestions. We have provided a point-by-point response to each of the reviewers’ comments with clearly marked changes to the manuscript.

      Public reviews

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this study, the authors set out to determine whether colorectal cancer surgery site (right, left, rectal) and chemotherapy impact the subsequent risk of developing T2DM in the Danish national health register.

      Strengths:

      • The research question is conceptually interesting

      • The Danish national health register is a comprehensive health database

      • The data analysis was thorough and appropriate

      • The findings are interesting, and a little surprising that there was no impact of chemotherapy on the development of T2DM

      Weaknesses:

      This is not a weakness as such, but in the discussion, I would consider adding some brief comment on the international generalizability of the findings - e.g. demographic make up of the Danish population health register and background rates of DM and obesity in this population with CRC compared to countries on other continents.

      Author response: We agree that this information would be valuable. It has now been added in the Discussion section.

      Changes in manuscript: "In Denmark, the overall T2D prevalence is 6.9%25, lower than the global average in 2021 (10.5%) and also falls below the estimate of high-income countries (11.1%).26 Similarly, the obesity rate of 20% aligns with other Scandinavian countries and is below that of most high-income nations.27” (Page 8, line 256-258)

      A little more information would be helpful regarding how T2DM was diagnosed in the registry.

      Author response: We have now added a more thorough explanation of how T2D was diagnosed in the Methods section.

      Changes in manuscript: “Diabetes is defined as the second occurrence of any event across three types of inclusion events: 1) Diabetes diagnosed during hospitalisation 2) diabetes-specific services received at podiatrist 3) purchases of glucose lowering. Thus, if a patient developed transient T2D during chemotherapy treatment, it will only be an inclusion event if they purchase glucose lowering drugs. Individuals were classified as having T1D if they had received prescriptions for insulin combined with a diagnosis of type 1 from a medical hospital department. Otherwise, diabetes was classified as type 2.22” (Page 5, line 154-160)

      If someone did develop transient hyperglycemia requiring DM medications during chemotherapy, would the investigators have been able to identify these people?

      Author response: Yes, we have added a sentence in the Methods section.

      Changes in manuscript: “Thus, if a patient developed transient T2D during chemotherapy treatment, it will only be an inclusion event if they purchase glucose lowering drugs.” (Page 5, line 156-158)

      Would they have been classified as T2DM based on filling a prescription for DM meds for a period of time? Also, did the authors have information regarding time to development of T2DM after surgery?

      Author response: Yes, if they have 2 (or more) prescriptions of oral glucose lowering drugs. Yes, we have information regarding time to development of T2DM after surgery and found no difference between the groups.

      Changes in manuscript: Information on mean time to develop T2D post-surgery has now been added to Table 2.

      In the adjusted Models, the authors did not adjust for cancer stage, even though cancer stage appears to be very different between the chemo and no chemo groups. It would be interesting to know if it affects the results if the model adjusted for cancer stage

      Author response: We agree that adjustment for cancer stage would be a valuable information and we have performed the analysis and added a sentence in the Result section.

      Changes in manuscript: An adjusted analysis of cancer stage now appears in the Supplementary table 1.

      “Moreover, adjusting for cancer stage did not affect the results (Supplementary table 1).” (Page 7, line 219-220)

      It would be worthwhile to report if mortality rates were different between the groups during follow up, and if the authors investigated whether perhaps differences in mortality rates led to specific groups living longer, and therefore having more time to develop DM

      Author response: This situation is accounted for in the analysis by using Cox-regression analysis. This method accounts for the potential competing effect of mortality.

      Changes in manuscript: None.

      Overall, the authors achieved their aims, and the conclusions are supported by their results as reported.

      The results are unlikely to significantly change patient treatment or T2DM screening in this population. With some additional information, as described above, the results would be of interest to the community.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The study showed the impact of cancer treatment on new onset of diabetes among patients with colorectal cancer using the national database. Findings reported that individuals with rectal cancer without chemotherapy were less likely to develop diabetes but among other groups, treatment didn't show any impact on the development of diabetes. BMI still played a significant role in developing diabetes regardless of treatment types.

      Strengths:

      One of the strengths of this study is innovative findings about the prognosis of colorectal cancer treatment stratified by treatment types. Especially, as it examined the impact of treatment on the risk of new chronic disease after diagnosis, it became significant evidence that suggests practical insights in developing a proper monitoring system for patients with colorectal cancer and their outcomes after treatment and diagnosis. It is imperative for providers to guide patients and caregivers to prevent adverse outcomes like new onset of chronic disease based on BMI and types of treatment. The next strength is the national database. As the study used the national database, the generalizability is validated.

      Weaknesses:

      Even though the study attempted to examine the impact of each treatment option, the dosage of chemotherapy and the types of chemotherapy were not able to be examined due to the data source.

      Author response: No unfortunately not. We agree that this would have been valuable information. This is stated in the original manuscript as a limitation. Please refer to page 10 line 305-306.

      Changes in manuscript: None.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Minor things:

      There are minor inconsistencies in the methods and results regarding BMI. In the methods, the authors state that BMI <18.5 and >/=40 were excluded, but these groups are included in Table 2.

      Author response: This has been corrected

      Changes in manuscript: BMI groups <18.5 and >/=40 are now excluded in Table 2. (Page 18)

      Line 204, I believe should be BMI 18.5-24.9, not 20-24.9.

      Author response: This has been corrected

      Changes in manuscript: “For each group (type of surgery ± chemotherapy), the HR for developing T2D depending on BMI subgroups was calculated by using Cox regression analysis adjusted for age, sex, year of surgery, and ASA score using normal weight (BMI:18.5-24.9) as the reference group.” (Page 6, line 184-186)

      Rather than showing the BMI mean in Table 1, it would be interesting to see the BMI breakdown by category.

      Author response: Yes, we agree. This analysis has now been added to Table 1

      Changes in manuscript: Please refer to Table 1

      Re line 215, I would consider rewriting to remove the multiple negatives -e.g. Radiation therapy in rectal resected had did not impact the incidence rate of T2D in the Rectal-No-Chemo group or Rectal-Chemo group

      Author response: This has been corrected. Please refer to the Result section.

      Changes in manuscript: “Radiation therapy in the rectal resected groups had no impact on the incidence rate of T2D (Table 2); and the unadjusted/adjusted HR of developing T2D was non-significant when comparing Rectal-No-Radiation patients with Rectal-Radiation patients (Table 3).” (Page 7, 223-225)

      Consider changing some of the "didn't"s in the discussion to "did not"

      Author response: This has been corrected.

      Changes in manuscript: Revised and corrected throughout the discussion.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Some points need to be clarified and improved.

      In the method, patients with Type 1 Diabetes were excluded in the baseline but some patients were diagnosed with Type 1 diabetes after treatment and they were included in your analysis. It is interesting to identify Type 1 Diabetes after the treatment as an outcome, do you think that this diagnosis is caused by the treatment? And incidence rate or other HRs did not seem to include Type 1 Diabetes as stated in the methods. Did you exclude every Type 1 diabetes? If not, It needs to give further explanation about this outcome since the mechanism of Type 1 Diabetes and Type 2 Diabetes is different.

      Author response: This matter has now been clarified in the Methods section.

      Changes in manuscript: “Additionally, individuals diagnosed with Type 1 diabetes (T1D) either before or after surgery were excluded, along with those diagnosed with T2D preoperatively or within the first 2 weeks postoperatively, as the last group probably represents patients with preoperatively unknown pre-existing prediabetes or diabetes.22” (Page 4, line: 125-128)

      Despite limited existing findings, some studies actually reported the incidence rates of Type 2 Diabetes among patients with CRC (Singh S, Earle CC, Bae SJ, et al. Incidence of Diabetes in Colorectal Cancer Survivors. J Natl Cancer Inst. 2016;108(6):djv402. Published 2016 Feb 2. doi:10.1093/jnci/djv402; Khan NF, Mant D, Carpenter L, Forman D, Rose PW. Long-term health outcomes in a British cohort of breast, colorectal and prostate cancer survivors: a database study. Br J Cancer. 2011;105 Suppl 1(Suppl 1):S29-S37. doi:10.1038/bjc.2011.420; Jo A, Scarton L, O'Neal LJ, et al. New onset of type 2 diabetes as a complication after cancer diagnosis: A systematic review. Cancer Med. 2021;10(2):439-446. doi:10.1002/cam4.3666) whereas your study examined the impact of the different types of treatments.

      Author response: Our findings of T2D rate among CRC patients are now commented on in discussion section, and the abovementioned studies are included as references.

      Changes in manuscript: “This national cohort study demonstrated an IR of developing T2D after CRC surgery similar to previous studies.5,11” (Page 8, line 237-238)

      To strengthen the presentation, some places should be revised.

      • Line 216: it says that Table 1 showed no impact of radiation therapy on the incidence rate of T2D. However, either the interpretation or the table number seems wrong. Table 1 does not have this information. Correct this statement.

      • Line 239: There are typo and incomplete sentence. Check the sentence and correct the sentence.

      • Line 257-261: It may be a systematic issue to separate these two paragraphs. But two paragraphs seem related so make them one paragraph.

      Author response: These suggested changes have been made. Regarding line 216 the paragraph has been adjusted to the following:

      Changes in manuscript: “Radiation therapy in the rectal resected groups had no impact on the incidence rate of T2D (Table 2); and the unadjusted/adjusted HR of developing T2D was non-significant when comparing Rectal-No-Radiation patients with Rectal-Radiation patients (Table 3).” (Page 7, 223-225)

      Reference

      (1) Araghi M, Soerjomataram I, Jenkins M, et al. Global trends in colorectal cancer mortality: projections to the year 2035. Int J Cancer. 2019;144(12):2992-3000. doi:10.1002/ijc.32055

      (2) Arnold M, Sierra MS, Laversanne M, Soerjomataram I, Jemal A, Bray F. Global patterns and trends in colorectal cancer incidence and mortality. Gut. 2017;66(4):683-691. doi:10.1136/gutjnl-2015-310912

      (3) González N, Prieto I, del Puerto-Nevado L, et al. 2017 Update on the Relationship between Diabetes and Colorectal Cancer: Epidemiology, Potential Molecular Mechanisms and Therapeutic Implications. Vol 8.; 2017. www.impactjournals.com/oncotarget

      (4) Mills KT, Bellows CF, Hoffman AE, Kelly TN, Gagliardi G. Diabetes mellitus and colorectal cancer prognosis: A meta-analysis. Dis Colon Rectum. 2013;56(11):1304-1319. doi:10.1097/DCR.0b013e3182a479f9

      (5) Singh S, Earle CC, Bae SJ, et al. Incidence of Diabetes in Colorectal Cancer Survivors. J Natl Cancer Inst. 2016;108(6). doi:10.1093/jnci/djv402

      (6) Xiao Y, Wang H, Tang Y, et al. Increased risk of diabetes in cancer survivors: a pooled analysis of 13 population-based cohort studies. ESMO Open. 2021;6(4). doi:10.1016/j.esmoop.2021.100218

      (7) Colorectal D, Nordcan 2019. 5-Year Age-Standardised Relative Survival (%), Males and Females. Accessed September 12, 2022. “https://nordcan.iarc.fr/en/dataviz/survival?cancers=520&set_scale=0&sexes=1_2&populations=208”" has been copied into your clipboard

      (8) Nano J, Dhana K, Asllanaj E, et al. Trajectories of BMI Before Diagnosis of Type 2 Diabetes: The Rotterdam Study. Obesity. 2020;28(6):1149-1156. doi:10.1002/oby.22802

      (9) Maddatu J, Anderson-Baucum E, Evans-Molina C. Smoking and the risk of type 2 diabetes. Translational Research. 2017;184:101-107. doi:10.1016/j.trsl.2017.02.004

      (10) Lega IC, Lipscombe LL. Review: Diabetes, Obesity, and Cancer-Pathophysiology and Clinical Implications. Endocr Rev. 2020;41(1). doi:10.1210/endrev/bnz014 (11) Jo A, Scarton L, O’Neal LTJ, et al. New onset of type 2 diabetes as a complication after cancer diagnosis: A systematic review. Cancer Med. 2021;10(2):439-446. doi:10.1002/cam4.3666

      (12) Feng JP, Yuan XL, Li M, et al. Secondary diabetes associated with 5-fluorouracil-based chemotherapy regimens in non-diabetic patients with colorectal cancer: Results from a single-centre cohort study. Colorectal Disease. 2013;15(1):27-33. doi:10.1111/j.1463-1318.2012.03097.x

      (13) Lee EK, Koo B, Hwangbo Y, et al. Incidence and disease course of new-onset diabetes mellitus in breast and colorectal cancer patients undergoing chemotherapy: A prospective multicenter cohort study. Diabetes Res Clin Pract. 2021;174. doi:10.1016/j.diabres.2021.108751

    1. Note: This response was posted by the corresponding author to Review Commons. The content has not been altered except for formatting.

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      Reply to the reviewers

      Manuscript number: RC-2023-02232

      Corresponding author(s): Shinji, Saiki and Nobutaka, Hattori

      1. General Statements [optional]

      Thank you for the review of our paper entitled “Identification of novel autophagy inducers by accelerating lysosomal clustering against Parkinson's disease” (RC-2023-02232). We have carefully read the critiques and planed experiments. Below we include point-by-point responses to the questions raised by the reviewers. We have also carried out some experiments and highlighted the revised sentences in the transferred manuscript in red. The numbers of pages and lines are indicated based on the MS Word transferred manuscript. We believe this revision plans appropriately addresses the issues raised by Reviewers. Finally, all the authors would like to thank again the Editor and Reviewers for improving our manuscript by providing their invaluable comments and suggestions.

      Point-by-point description of the revisions

      • *

      Reviewer #1 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      The manuscript by Date et al employed a cell model by stably expressing LGP120-mCherry and GFP-gamma-tubulin to carry out high-content screening in search of chemical compounds that enhance lysosomal clustering and autophagy. They found 6 clinically approved drugs categorized as topoisomerase II inhibitors and the benzimidazole class. They further validated these compounds by a set of well-designed experiments including autophagy flux assays and mTOR dependence. In the mechanistic study, they demonstrated the compounds induce lysosomal clustering in a JIP4-TRPML1-dependent manner. In a PD cell model, one of the compounds albendazole exhibited the effect on boosting the degradation of insoluble alpha-synuclein. The study is of interest, and the cell model and the approach generated by the authors would be transferable for future studies of other high-content imaging screening. Most of the data is clear and convincing.

      Major comment

      1) In addition to its role in facilitating a-syn turnover by autophagy, Is the chemical protective against a-syn toxicity?

      RESPONSE:

      As suggested by the Reviewer, we examined the cytotoxicity of aSyn aggregates in SH-SY5Y cells overexpressing aSyn-GFP by LDH assay. As shown in the revised version of Fig. 1, aSyn aggregates induced by introducing aSyn fibrils into SH-SY5Y cells overexpressing aSyn-GFP did not exhibit any cytotoxicity. In addition, we observed no significant change in cell death after 8 hours of treatment with albendazole compared with DMSO.

      Previous studies have reported that induced pluripotent stem cells (iPSCs) derived from patients with PD with a triplication of the human SNCA genomic locus exhibited reduced capacity for differentiation into dopaminergic or GABAergic neurons, decreased neurite outgrowth, and lower neuronal activity compared with control cultures, albeit without showing cytotoxicity (Cell Death and Disease 6: e1994, Oliveira et al., 2015). Given this context, we were thus unable to conduct the suggested assessment due to technical limitations. Therefore, we consider the evaluation of the recovery of aSyn toxicity by drug treatment challenging in this cellular model using fibril aSyn.

      __Revised Fig 1. __

      SH-SY5Y cells overexpressing aSyn-GFP were transfected with aSyn fibril for 48 h and treated with the indicated albendazole concentrations for 8 h. The cytotoxicity was measured by using Cytotoxicity LDH Assay Kit-WST kit.

      2) Please elaborate why albendazole does not change the levels of soluble a-syn, but those of insoluble, as shown Fig 8D.

      RESPONSE:

      The unchanged aSyn-GFP levels in the soluble fraction (Fig. 8D) are likely due to the abundance of soluble aSyn-GFP. To evaluate the autophagic degradation of aSyn monomers, we used SH-SY5Y cells stably expressing aSyn-Halo and measured aSyn degradation by quantifying cleaved Halo. As shown in the revised version of Fig. 2, albendazole treatment induced a higher cleavage rate of Halo than DMSO treatment for 8 h, suggesting that albendazole degrades both aSyn monomers and aSyn aggregates. We have added the data in Fig. S7A, and the description of these experiments in the Results section (page 10, lines 359 to 364).


      __Revised Fig. 2. __

      SH-SY5Y cells expressing aSyn-Halo were labeled for 20 min with 100 nM of tetramethylrhodamine-conjugated ligand in a nutrient-rich medium. After washing with phosphate-buffered saline and incubating in normal medium for 30 min, the cells were treated with 10 µM albendazole for 8 h. The experiments were performed in triplicate. Cell lysates were separated by electrophoresis and analyzed by in-gel fluorescence detection (left). The HaloTMR band intensity was normalized by the sum of the band intensities of HaloTMR-aSyn and HaloTMR. The vertical axis of the graph represents the intensity multiplied by 100. Mean values of data from five or three experiments are shown. The graph data are expressed as mean ± standard deviation. ****P 

      3) Fig 6A shows that some of the compounds (Teniposide, Amsacrine) affect the levels of JIP4. Can albendazole also reduce JIP4 levels. It might be interesting to test this, as JIP4 is important for lysosomal clustering.

      RESPONSE:

      As the Reviewer pointed out, JIP4 is essential for lysosome accumulation. However, our data showed decreased JIP4 levels with the addition of lysosomal-clustering compounds. We hypothesized that this response was caused by the autophagy-induced degradation of JIP4. The decrease in JIP4 levels was detected by western blot after 4 h of treatment with 10 μM of teniposide. Moreover, the decrease in JIP4 levels induced by teniposide was suppressed by co-treatment with bafilomycin A1, indicating that JIP4 was degraded by teniposide-induced autophagy, as shown in the revised version of Fig. 3. We have added the data in Fig. S6 and the related description of these experiments in the Results section (page 8, lines 289 to 293).

      __Revised Fig 3. __

      SH-SY5Y cells were treated with 10 µM teniposide and with or without 30 nM bafilomycin A1 for 4 h. Cell lysates were immunoblotted with anti-JIP4 and actin antibodies.

      Minor comments: The writing is good generally. Please tide up the text in a few occasions to make the expressions more formal.

      RESPONSE: We have revised our manuscript to adopt a more formal tone.

      Reviewer #1 (Significance (Required)):

      Significance: The study generated a new approach for high-throughput screening of compounds to enhance lysosomal clustering. Audience: Basic and clinical research Expertise: Programmed cell death, neurodegenerative diseases

      • *

      Reviewer #2 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      In this study, the authors focused on lysosome positioning and autophagy activity to search for novel agents effective against Parkinson's disease. As a result, several compounds were successively identified, including Topoisomerase inhibitors and Benzimidazole. Authors showed that these agents regulate lysosomal positioning through different pathways but commonly require JIP4 to regulate lysosomal positioning and subsequent autophagy. They also showed that albendazole treatment promoted the degradation of insoluble ubiquitinated proteins and αSyn in cultured cells.

      Major Comments.

      1) Two compounds, for instance teniposide and albendazole both requires JIP4 and/or TRPML1 to regulate lysosomal positioning and autophagy but their action seems different. What is the actual mechanism by which these compounds require JIP4/TRPML1. How inhibition of Topoisomerase leads to increase of JIP4 phosphorylation? Do teniposide and albendazole both affect calcium release from TRPML1?

      RESPONSE:

      We previously reported that acrolein/H2O2 accelerates lysosomal retrograde trafficking by TRPML1 and phosphorylated JIP4. Mechanistically, JIP4 was phosphorylated by CaMK2G activated by Ca2+ released from TRPML1 (EMBO J 41: e111476, Sasazawa et al., 2022). TRPML1 acts as a reactive oxygen species (ROS) sensor in lysosomes (Nat Commun 7: 12109, Zhang et al., 2016). We concluded that acrolein induces ROS production, which then activates TRPML1. (EMBO J 41: e111476, Sasazawa et al., 2022). Therefore, topoisomerase inhibitors (topo-i) may induce ROS and stimulate TRPML1. We examined intracellular ROS levels in response to topo-i. As shown in revised Fig. 4A, the topo-i teniposide, etoposide, and amsacrine significantly increased ROS levels. Moreover, N-acetyl-L-cysteine, an ROS scavenger, partially attenuated lysosomal clustering induced by topo-i (revised Fig. 4B). In addition, Ca2+ imaging showed that teniposide, but not albendazole, upregulates Ca2+ flux (revised Fig. 4C). Based on the activity of CaMK2G siRNA as shown in Fig. 5D, 5E, and S5, topo-i may activate TRPML1 in a ROS-dependent manner and increase PI(3,5)P2 binding with TRPML1 (Nat Commun 1, 38, Dong et al., 2010). Consecutive Ca2+ release via TRPML1 activated CaMK2G and is followed by enhanced lysosomal transport toward the MTOC via JIP4 phosphorylation.

      We have added the revised Fig.4A and 4B data in Fig. S8A and S8B, and the related description of these experiments in the Discussion section (page 11, lines 401 to 409). We have also added the data in revised Fig. 4C to Fig. S6 and the related description of these experiments in the Results section (page 7, lines 266 to 267).

      Conversely, we showed that benzimidazoles, including albendazole, induce lysosomal clustering mediated by JIP4, TRPML1, ALG2, and Rab7. Moreover, benzimidazoles showed lysosomal clustering activity within a narrow concentration range, as shown in Fig. S7D. Benzimidazoles inhibit tubulin polymerization (Int J Paras 18:885–936. Lacey et al., 1988). We hypothesized that the effect of tubulin polymerization induced by benzimidazole plays a key role in the induction of lysosomal clustering as described in the Discussion section. To clarify this, we observed the behavior of tubulin filaments in response to various albendazole concentrations under confocal microscopy. As shown in revised Fig. 4D, conditions where albendazole was administered to induce lysosomal clustering, tubulin filaments were observed only near the MTOC, and the filaments in the cell periphery were disassembled. In contrast, when exposed to higher albendazole concentrations, tubulin filaments throughout the cell were disassembled, resulting in the inhibition of lysosomal clustering This would explain why benzimidazole exerts lysosomal clustering activity within a narrow concentration range. Under JIP4, TRPML1, ALG2 and Rab7 silencing, lysosomes may fail to interact with microtubules, resulting in the inhibition of lysosomal clustering. We postulated that albendazole-induced lysosomal clustering is not mediated by factors activated by specific stimuli in lysosomal transport but, rather, is induced by spatially constraining conventional lysosomal transport mediated by various adaptors (i.e., JIP4, TRPML1, ALG2, and Rab7) through tubulin disassembly. We have added the data in Fig. S9C and the related description of these experiments in the Discussion section (page 12, lines 428 to 436).

      A B

      C

      D

      __Revised Fig. 4. __

      1. SH-SY5Y cells were treated with the indicated compounds (10 µM) for 4 h. The amount of intracellular reactive oxygen species (ROS) is examined by ROS Assay Kit -Highly Sensitive DCFH-DA (Dojindo) and the normalized pixels above threshold as measured using an INCellAnalyzer 2200 and ImageJ.
      2. SH-SY5Y cell lines were pretreated with 0.1 mM N-acetyl-L-cysteine (NAC) for 24 h and then treated with the indicated compound (10 µM) for an additional 4 Cells were fixed and stained with anti-g-tubulin (green) and anti-LAMP2 (red) antibodies. Lysosomal distribution was examined using an INCellAnalyzer 2200 and quantified using ImageJ software.
      3. SH-SY5Y cells were treated with teniposide, amsacrine, etoposide, albendazole (1, 5, 10 µM), oxibendazole (0.1, 0.5, and 1 µM), or and mebendazole (0.5,1, and 5 µM) for 4 h, and stained with Fluo4-AM for 30 min. The fluorescence intensity was measured using a plate reader.
      4. SH-SY5Y cells were treated with albendazole (10 and 100 µM) or nocodazole (0.5 and 10 µM) for 4 h. Cells were fixed and stained with LAMP1 (red) and a-tubulin (green) antibodies.

        2) The authors should clarify the functional advantage of these drugs identified in this study as drugs for Parkinson's disease by comparing with known autophagy inducers such as Torin1 or rapamycin. 

      RESPONSE:

      To evaluate the functional advantage of lysosome-clustering compounds over Torin1, we evaluated the degradation activity of insoluble aSyn induced by the addition of aSyn fibrils to aSyn-GFP cells. Torin1 induced the degradation of insoluble aSyn by autophagy, as shown in revised Fig. 5A. However, the degradation activity of albendazole was more vigorous, as shown in revised Fig. 5B. In contrast, we observed that Torin1 exhibited more autophagic induction activity than albendazole, as assessed using Halo-LC3. Similar results were obtained with teniposide (revised Fig. 5C). These results suggest that albendazole, with its ability to concentrate lysosomes around the degradation substrate, facilitates more effective degradation of insoluble aSyn than Torin1. This presents a significant advantage in the development of therapeutics for Parkinson's Disease. Moreover, Torin1 acts on the upstream signals of autophagy by inhibiting mTORC1, potentially impacting diverse cellular responses. Conversely, compounds that induce lysosomal clustering target the final step of autophagic degradation, which may have fewer side effects. We have added the description of these experiments in the Results section (page 10, lines 366 to 380) and the Discussion section (page 11 lines 410 to 412) and presented the data in Fig. S7B–S7E and Fig. 6D.

      A____ ____B








      C











      __Revised Fig. 5. __

      1. SH-SY5Y cells overexpressing aSyn-GFP were transfected with aSyn fibril (0.2 µg/mL) using Lipofectamine 3000. After 48 h, the transfection reagent was washed out, and the SH-SY5Y cells were treated with 100 nM Torin1 with or without 100 nM bafilomycin A1 for 8 h (B). Cell lysates were separated into Triton X-100–soluble (soluble) and pellet fractions (insoluble), then subjected to sodium dodecyl sulfate polyacrylamide gel electrophoresis (SDS-PAGE) and immunoblotting with the indicated antibody(left). The amount of insoluble aSyn was quantified using Image J software (C).
      2. SH-SY5Y cells overexpressing aSyn-GFP were transfected with aSyn fibril (0.2 µg/mL) using Lipofectamine 3000. After 48 h, and washing out the transfection reagent, SH-SY5Y cells were treated with albendazole (10μM) with or without 100 nM Torin1 for 8 h. Cell lysates were separated into Triton X-100–soluble (soluble) and pellet fractions (insoluble), then subjected to SDS-PAGE and immunoblotting with the indicated antibody (left). The amount of insoluble aSyn was quantified using Image J software.
      3. SH-SY5Y cells stably expressing Halo-LC3 were labeled for 20 min with 100 nM TMR-conjugated ligand in a nutrient-rich medium. After washing with PBS and incubating the cells in normal medium for 30 min, cells were treated with DMSO, teniposide (10 μM), albendazole (10 µM), and/or Torin1 (100 nM) for 8 h. Cell lysates were immunoblotted with the indicated antibody and analyzed by in-gel fluorescence detection (left). The HaloTMR band intensity was normalized by the sum of the band intensities of HaloTMR-LC3B and HaloTMR (right).

        3) Related to the previous question, in Fig.6A and B additional data comparing novel compounds with established autophagy inducers, such as torin1 and rapamycin, should be included and discussed.

      RESPONSE:

      As indicated in a previous response, we evaluated the autophagic induction activity of Torin1, and the results have been added to Fig. 6D. In addition, co-treatment with Torin1 and teniposide or albendazole induced autophagy more effectively than Torin1 treatment alone, without affecting mTOR inhibition activity (revised Fig. 4C). These findings indicate that the induction of autophagy by lysosomal clustering compounds is not caused by autophagosome formation but by the formation of autolysosomes. We have added a description of these experiments in the Results section (page 9, lines 316 to 322) and have added the data in Fig. 6D.

      4) The authors should examined whether increased degradation of insoluble proteins and αSyn are dependent on JIP4.  

      RESPONSE:

      As the Reviewer suggested, we have examined whether lysosomal accumulation through the JIP4-TRPML1 pathway is crucial for the degradation of aSyn aggregates. We evaluated the degradation activity of insoluble aSyn induced by the addition of aSyn fibrils to aSyn-GFP cells when JIP4, TMEM55B, or TRPML1 were knocked down. Interestingly, the insoluble fraction assay showed that JIP4 and TRPML1 knockdown regulated the decrease of aSyn-GFP and p-aSyn levels in the insoluble fraction for both DMSO and albendazole treatments. The results were particularly more pronounced with TRPML1 knockdown. However, the knockdown of TMEM55B did not produce such findings (revised Fig. 6). These data suggest that lysosomal clustering via the JIP4–TRPML1 pathway plays a significant role in aSyn degradation. We have added a relevant description in the Results section (page 10, lines 373 to 380) and have added the data in Fig. S7F and S7G.


      __Revised Fig. 6. __

      SH-SY5Y cells over-expressing aSyn-GFP were transfected with the indicated siRNAs for 24 h and then transfected with aSyn fibril (0.2 µg/mL) using Lipofectamine 3000 for 48 h. After washing out the transfection reagent, the SH-SY5Y cells were treated with dimethyl sulfoxide or albendazole (10 μM) for 8 h. Cell lysates were separated into Triton X-100–soluble (soluble) and pellet fractions (insoluble) and subjected to SDS-PAGE and immunoblotting with the indicated antibody. The bar graph presents the ratio of the insoluble aSyn-GFP to the soluble GAPDH or insoluble p-aSyn to the soluble GAPDH of the intensity of the data in panel F. Data are expressed as mean ± standard deviation.

      5) Authors only utilized. SH-SY5Y cells in this study. It is important to examine whether these compounds also regulate lysosomal positioning and autophagy in other cell lines.

      RESPONSE:

      As per the Reviewer’s suggestion, we evaluated the lysosomal-clustering activity induced by topo-i and benzimidazole in human adenocarcinoma HeLa cells. As shown in revised Fig. 7A and 7B compounds do not induce lysosomal clustering or autophagy in HeLa cells. Furthermore, in the case of benzimidazole, they transport lysosomes to the cell periphery. Previously, we found that oxidative stress accumulates lysosomes in a neuroblastoma-specific manner through the TRPML1–phosphoJIP4-dependent mechanism (EMBO J 41: e111476, Sasazawa et al., 2022). Since we have demonstrated that topo-i-mediated lysosomal trafficking is dependent on the TRPML1–phosphorylated JIP4 complex, we hypothesized that several molecules involved in lysosomal trafficking are absent in HeLa cells.

      In contrast, we showed that albendazole-induced lysosomal clustering is due to tubulin depolymerization. Therefore, we examined the relationships between tubulin depolymerization and lysosomal clustering induced by albendazole in HeLa cells and found that albendazole did not induce lysosomal clustering but rather inhibited it at higher concentrations (revised Fig. 7B). Interestingly, similar to SH-SY5Y cells, a low albendazole concentration (10 μM) induced tubulin depolymerization only at the cell periphery, whereas a high concentration (100 μM) depolymerized the entire cell (revised Fig. 7C). However, unlike SH-SY5Y cells, no characteristic accumulation of tubulin filaments was observed near the MTOC under low albendazole concentration (10 µM); instead, they were arranged around the nucleus. Concurrently, lysosomes were around these dispersed tubulin filaments. Therefore, the differences in the effects of benzimidazole in HeLa and SH-SY5Y cells lies in the dose-dependent effects on the state of tubulin filaments. We have added a relevant description in the Discussions section (page 12, lines 419 to 422, and 437 to 453).

      __ A__

      __ B__

      C D

      __Revised Fig. 7. __

      HeLa cells were treated with teniposide (10 μM), amsacrine (10 μM), etoposide (10 μM), albendazole (10 μM), oxibendazole (1 μM), or mebendazole (5 μM). Images were captured using an INCellAnalyzer2200. INCellAnalyzer2200 images were analyzed using ImageJ for lysosomal clustering. The graph presents the lysosomal clustering values (n > 30). Data are expressed as mean ± standard deviation (SD). ****P HeLa cells were treated with teniposide (10 μM), amsacrine (10 μM), etoposide (10 μM), albendazole (10 μM), oxibendazole (1 μM), or mebendazole (5 μM) for 4 h. Cell lysates were immunoblotted with the indicated antibodies. The amount of LC3II was estimated using Image J software (bottom panel). HeLa cells were treated with albendazole at specified concentrations (in µM). After treatment, cells were fixed and stained with anti-g-tubulin (green) and anti-LAMP2 (red) antibodies, followed by imaging with an INCellAnalyzer2200. INCellAnalyzer2200 images were processed and analyzed using ImageJ for lysosomal clustering. The graph presents the lysosomal clustering values (n > 30). Data are expressed as mean ± SD. *P  HeLa cells were treated with albendazole (10 and 25 µM) for 4 h. Cells were fixed and stained with LAMP1 (red) and a-tubulin (green) antibodies.

      6) The authors conclude that the six compounds do not mediate mTOR signaling in Fig. 3, but should more carefully describe in the manuscript why they performed this experiment and what the results mean for.

      RESPONSE: 

      As per the Reviewer’s advice, we have changed the description in the manuscript as follows:

      Previous studies have shown that lysosomal retrograde transport regulates autophagic flux by facilitating autophagosome formation by suppressing mTORC1 and expediting fusion between autophagosomes and lysosomes (Kimura et al, 2008; Korolchuk et al, 2011). Conversely, we recent found that acrolein/H2O2 induces lysosomal clustering in an mTOR-independent manner (Sasazawa et al., 2022). In this study, we aimed to identify pharmacologic agents that act downstream rather than upstream in the autophagy pathway, with the goal of minimizing side effects. Therefore, we evaluated the effects of the compounds on the mTOR pathway. As shown in Fig. 3, these compounds induced lysosomal clustering without affecting mTOR activity, indicating their potential as promising candidates for PD therapy. We have added the description of these experiments in the Results section (page 6, lines 202 to 208 and line 217).

      Minor comments. 1) The name of the compound should be written in the red point of Fig.2A.

      RESPONSE:

      We have included the names of the six compounds identified and are listed in Fig. 2A.

      2) Regarding images of Fig.2B, the magnified images and quantitative data should be added.

      RESPONSE:

      We have included magnified images, as well as the quantitative results of lysosome clustering analysis using INCellAnalyzer2200 in Fig. 2B.

      3) The results of Fig.2C need to be explained more carefully. A quantitative data is missing.

      RESPONSE:

      We have included the quantitative results of western blot in Fig. 2B.

      4) Fig.S2, which compares autophagy activity with conventional agents, should be quantified and added to the Fig.3.

      RESPONSE:

      We have presented the results of RFP/GFP quantification performed by FACS analysis using SH-SY5Y cells stably expressing RFP-GFP-LC3 in Fig. S2, which is equivalent to the quantification of the data in the Fig. S2 image. These data are now presented as Fig. S2B. Since Fig. 3 focuses on mTOR signaling, we preferred to retain the figure number.

      5) In the statistical analysis of Fig.4B, the clustering value was increased by siRILP, which should be briefly described in the manuscript.

      RESPONSE:

      On the contrary, the enhancement of lysosomal retrograde transport in RILP knockdown cells in Fig. 4B suggests the potential involvement of RILP in anterograde transport. However, to the best of our knowledge, no reports have investigated this matter. We presume that negative feedback mechanisms may be present. We have added this description to the Results section (page 7 lines 238 to 241).

      6) In Fig.4A and B, it is possible that the knockdown efficiency of siRILP and siTMEM55B was not sufficient to observe the effect on lysosomes, and this concern should be described in the manuscript.

      RESPONSE:

      We established starvation conditions, which induce TMEM55B-dependent lysosomal retrograde transport, as a positive control and evaluated the lysosomal induction activity of compounds when TMEM55B was knocked down. As shown below, lysosome accumulation was suppressed only when subjected to starvation treatment, indicating sufficient knockdown efficiency of TMEM55B. These compounds induced lysosomal clustering independently of TMEM55B, unlike under starvation conditions. We have added a description of these experiments in the Results section and presented the data in Fig. S4A (page 7, lines 232 to 237).

      On the other hand, we were unable to establish a positive control for RILP knockdown experiments because conditions that regulate RILP-dependent lysosomal distribution dependent are not understood. While we cannot completely rule out the possibility of insufficient knockdown efficiency, considering that RILP knockdown appears to paradoxically enhance lysosomal induction, as mentioned above, it is reasonable to assume that the knockdown effect has occurred.

      __Revised Fig. 8. __

      SH-SY5Y cells were transfected with TMEM55B siRNA for 48 h and then treated with teniposide (10 μM), albendazole (10 μM), or starvation medium for 4 h. Cells were fixed and stained with anti-g-tubulin (green) and anti-LAMP2 (red) antibodies. Images were captured using an INCellAnalyzer2200. INCellAnalyzer2200 images were analyzed using ImageJ for lysosomal clustering. The graph presents the lysosomal clustering values (n > 30). Data are expressed as mean ± standard deviation (SD). ****P

      7) The authors should add the results of the WB experiment showing the amount of JIP4 protein in Fig.5G. 

      RESPONSE:

      We have added western blot data that introduce flag-JIP4 into JIP4KO SH-SY5Y cells, which are presented in Fig. 5G.

      8) In Fig.5F, images of JIP4KO cells that do not express FLAG-JIP4 should be added as controls, and further quantification should be done on cells in all three conditions.

      RESPONSE:

      We have added immunofluorescence data that do not express flag-JIP4 in Fig. 5F, which had been obtained simultaneously during the acquisition of other images. Furthermore, we quantified lysosomal distribution, which is shown in Fig. 5E. Using ImageJ, we automatically delineated approximately 70% of the cell area toward the cell center and designated the region excluded from this area as the cellular peripheral region (revised Fig. 9A). Subsequently, we quantified the proportion of lysosomes contained within that region in cells expressing flag-JIP4 (revised Fig. 9B). We have added this experimental data in Fig. 5E.

      A B

      __Revised Fig. 9. __

      1. Approximately 70% of the cell area toward the cell center was automatically delineated using ImageJ, with the region excluded from this defined as the cellular peripheral region.
      2. JIP4 KO cells were transfected with flag-tagged JIP4 (wild-type and T217A) for 24 h and treated with teniposide (10 μM) for 4 h. Cell lysates underwent SDS-PAGE and were immunoblotted with anti-JIP4 and anti-actin The graph displays the percentage of cells with peripheral lysosomes. Data are expressed as mean ± standard deviation. *P 20).

        9) In Fig.6A, the total amount of JIP4 seems to change in some agent treatments, which needs to be explained.

      RESPONSE:

      As per our response to Reviewer 1, we evaluated the decrease in JIP4 expression by WB after 4 h of treatment with 10 μM teniposide. The teniposide-induced decrease of JIP4 was suppressed by bafilomycinA1 co-treatment, indicating that JIP4 was degraded by teniposide-induced autophagy (revised Fig. 3). We have added the data in Fig. S6, and the related description of these experiments have been added to the Results section (page 8, lines 289 to 293).

      10) In Fig.7C and D, the effect of drug treatment on the amount of ubiquitinated proteins should also be checked.

      RESPONSE:

      We have included ubiquitin protein blots in Fig. 7C and 7D.

      11) In Fig.8B, it is described that lysosomes are more localized in αSyn by drug treatment, but more convincing images and quantitative data are needed.

      RESPONSE:

      . The colocalization of LAMP2 and aSyn-GFP aggregates was assessed by measuring the fluorescence values of lysosomes in contact within the aSyn-GFP aggregation area using ImageJ. We have added this quantified data in Fig. 8D.

      Reviewer #2 (Significance (Required)): Although the reviewer appreciates the discovery of novel drugs to induce autophagy through regulating lysosomal positioning, the detailed action of these compounds and their superiority in the field are not clear.

      __Reviewer #3 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):____ __ In this manuscript, Date et al. sought to identify compounds that promote protein aggregates clearance - in particular those formed by mutant alpha synuclein. Briefly the authors screened a library of clinically approved compounds for inducers of lysosomal clustering followed by a secondary screen for autophagy inducers. By this two-step procedure, the authors identified three topoisomerase inhibitors and three anthelmintics as hits. Next, the authors unveiled that lysosomal clustering induced by these compounds is independent of mTORC1 but requires TRPML1 and JIP4. Moreover, the topoisomerase inhibitors hits involved phosphorylation of JIP4 while the anthelmintics additionally required Rab7 and ALG2. Intriguingly, the authors found that lysosomal clustering was prerequisite to autophagy induction. Focusing on the class of anthelmintics (i.e. albendazole) the authors showed that these induce autophagy to degrade aggregates formed upon proteasome inhibition. Lastly, the authors demonstrated that albendazole also led to increased degradation of αSyn aggregates through autophagy induction.

      Major points 1) Most importantly, the authors need to tone down the significance of their findings throughout the manuscript. For examples, they should restrain from using "nullified" when it is really reduced only by 10-25 %.

      RESPONSE: 

      We have changed the description in the manuscript according to the Reviewer’s suggestion.

      2) The authors claim that the topoisomerase inhibitors led to JIP4 phosphorylation while Figure 5C actually shows the opposite (partially reduced phosphorylation compared to DMSO treatment) and the Jak3 inhibitor has no obvious effect. The authors should quantify the phostag results.

      RESPONSE:

      We agree with the Reviewer that the Phos-tag PAGE results of JIP4 in Fig. 5C is complicated, and the bands were not clear. We have replaced these with more robust data (Fig. 5C).

      3) Figure 6A/B: Why do all compounds except Mebendazole affect the abundance of JIP4?

      RESPONSE:

      As per our response to Reviewer 1, we evaluated the decrease in JIP4 expression by WB after 4 h of treatment with 10 μM teniposide. The teniposide-induced decrease of JIP4 was suppressed by bafilomycinA1 co-treatment, indicating that JIP4 was degraded by teniposide-induced autophagy (revised Fig. 3). We have added the data in Fig. S6, and the related description of these experiments have been added to the Results section (page 8, lines 289 to 293).

      4) Figure 7C: The blot is not convincing. The authors should quantify this effect.

      RESPONSE:

      We evaluated and confirmed the degradation of p62 by albendazole, as shown in Fig. 7C.

      Reviewer #3 (Significance (Required)):

      Overall, the work of Date and colleague highlights the role of lysosomal clustering in clearing protein aggregates. Importantly, the identified classes of compounds might open new avenues for rationalizing treatment strategies for neurodegenerative diseases. However, several critical points remain.

      • *
    1. AbstractThis paper presents two key data sets derived from the Pomar Urbano project. The first data set is a comprehensive catalog of edible fruit-bearing plant species, native or introduced in Brazil. The second data set, sourced from the iNaturalist platform, tracks the distribution and monitoring of these plants within urban landscapes across Brazil. The study encompasses data from all 27 Brazilian state capitals, focusing on the ten cities that contributed the most observations as of August 2023. The research emphasizes the significance of citizen science in urban biodiversity monitoring and its potential to contribute to various fields, including food and nutrition, creative industry, study of plant phenology, and machine learning applications. We expect the data sets to serve as a resource for further studies in urban foraging, food security, cultural ecosystem services, and environmental sustainability.

      This work has been published in GigaByte Journal under a CC-BY 4.0 license (https://doi.org/10.46471/gigabyte.108 and see also the accompanying commentary in GigaScience: https://doi.org/10.1093/gigascience/giae007 ), and has published the reviews under the same license as follows:

      Reviewer 1. Corey T. Callaghan

      Are the data and metadata consistent with relevant minimum information or reporting standards?

      Yes. More information should be given on the relevance to GBIF. And why the dataset is necessary to 'stand alone'. The main reason I guess is because in this context cultivated organisms are really valuable as a lot of your target organisms will indeed be cultivated.

      Is the data acquisition clear, complete and methodologically sound?

      No. More detail should be provided about the difference in research grade and cultivated organisms on iNaturalist. The RG could be downloaded from GBIF, but I understand the need to go around that given that the cultivated organisms are also valuable in this context.

      Is the validation suitable for this type of data?

      No. There should be more information provided on the CV model. And more information provided on the importance of identifiers in iNaturalist ecosystem. They are critically important. Right now, it reads as if the CV model generally accurately identifies organisms, but this isn't necessarily true, and there is no reference given. However, the identifiers are necessary to help data processing and identification of the organisms submitted to iNaturalist. I also think the biases of cultivated organisms not being identified as readily by iNaturalist identifiers should be discussed somewhere in the manuscript.

      Additional Comments:

      I appreciated the description of this dataset and particularly liked the 'context' section and think it did a good job of setting up the need for such data. I would use iNaturalist throughout as opposed to iNat since iNat is a bit more colloquial.

      Reviewer 2. Patrick Hurley

      This is a very interesting paper and approach to examining questions related to the presence of edible plants in Brazilian cities. As such, it addresses--whether intentionally or not--open questions within the existing literatures of urban foraging and urban ecosystem services (Shackleton et al. 2017, ), among others, including:

      1. how the existing species composition of cities create already existing edible/useful landscapes (see Hurley et al. 2015, Hurley and Emery 2018, Hurley et al. 2022), or what the authors appear to describe as "orchards", and including the use of open data sources to support these activities (Stark et al. 2019),
      2. the ways that urban forests support cultural ecosystem services (Plieininger et al. 2015), 2a. dietary need/food security (Synk et al. 2017, Bunge et al. 2019, Gaither et al. 2020, Sardeshpande & Shackleton 2023), including in Brazil (Brito et al 2020), and diversity (Gareake & Shackleton 2020), 2b. sharing of ecological knowledge (Landor-Yamagata 2018), and 2c. social-ecological resilience (Sardeshpande et al. 2021) as well as 2d. reconnect urban residents to nature/biodiversity (Palliwoda et al. 2017, Fisher and Kowarik 2020, Schunko and Brandner 2022).

      3. I note that while most of the literatures above focus on foods and edibility, Hurley et al. 2015 and Hurley and Emery consider the relationship of urban forests for other, not food-related uses and thus the material connections and uses by people within art and other cultural objects.

      4. I also note that some scholars are beginning to focus on the question of urban governance and the inclusion of urban fruit trees (Kowalski & Conway 2023), building off of the rapidly expanding literature on urban food forestry (Clark and Nicholas 2011) and edible green infrastructure. The difference between these literatures and those I've suggested above is that they generally focus on policy and planting interventions to insert, add, or otherwise enhance the edibility of these spaces (as opposed to the above stream analyzing how people interact with what is already there, whether those species are intended for harvest by people, or not, and thus it seems like this piece better links to those issues .

      5. It would be helpful to see at least some of these links between the present research and its focus on methods for using a particularly valuable dataset linked to/with efforts to address the conceptual questions that are raised by the authors. For example, in relation to item #1 above, I might suggest dropping the use of "orchard" and describe the species being analyzed as representative of an "actually existing food forests" within these cities (building on the existing literature Items 1 through 3), while indicating the insights it might provide to those interested in interventions to shape future cities and their species composition to enhance human benefits (items 4 and 5). Likewise, it would be helpful to reference the items in 2a through 2d where they appear in the Context section, building on the very high level citations already (e.g., current citations #5 FAO and #6 Salbitano).

      To be clear, much of what I'm asking for here can be, I think, addressed through additions of single sentences or phrases throughout the context section, along with brief reference to these within the brief discussions under "Reuse Potenial".

      Or perhaps this is too in-depth for this journal. If that's the case, then I do think that reference to several key articles is needed, specifically to signal the insights this piece has for this ongoing work to understand how urban forests function for human benefit. Those would be:

      Shackleton et al. 2017, Hurley & Emery 2018, Garekea & Shackleton 2020, Fisher & Kowarik 2020, Sardeshpande et al. 2021.

      Most critically, the work of Stark et al. 2019 should be acknowledged.

      My sincere thanks to the authors to learn from this work and my apologies for the delay in completing this review.

      Works Cited Above

      Bunge, A., Diemont, S. A., Bunge, J. A., & Harris, S. (2019). Urban foraging for food security and sovereignty: quantifying edible forest yield in Syracuse, New York using four common fruit-and nut-producing street tree species. Journal of Urban Ecology, 5(1), juy028.

      Fischer, L. K., & Kowarik, I. (2020). Connecting people to biodiversity in cities of tomorrow: Is urban foraging a powerful tool?. Ecological Indicators, 112, 106087.

      Garekae, H., & Shackleton, C. M. (2020). Foraging wild food in urban spaces: the contribution of wild foods to urban dietary diversity in South Africa. Sustainability, 12(2), 678.

      Hurley, P. T., Emery, M. R., McLain, R., Poe, M., Grabbatin, B., & Goetcheus, C. L. (2015). Whose urban forest? The political ecology of foraging urban nontimber forest products. Sustainability in the global city: Myth and practice, 187-212.

      Hurley, P. T., & Emery, M. R. (2018). Locating provisioning ecosystem services in urban forests: Forageable woody species in New York City, USA. Landscape and Urban Planning, 170, 266-275.

      Hurley, P. T., Becker, S., Emery, M. R., & Detweiler, J. (2022). Estimating the alignment of tree species composition with foraging practice in Philadelphia's urban forest: Toward a rapid assessment of provisioning services. Urban Forestry & Urban Greening, 68, 127456.

      Kowalski, J. M., & Conway, T. M. (2023). The routes to fruit: Governance of urban food trees in Canada. Urban Forestry & Urban Greening, 86, 128045.

      Landor-Yamagata, J. L., Kowarik, I., & Fischer, L. K. (2018). Urban foraging in Berlin: People, plants and practices within the metropolitan green infrastructure. Sustainability, 10(6), 1873.

      Palliwoda, J., Kowarik, I., & von der Lippe, M. (2017). Human-biodiversity interactions in urban parks: The species level matters. Landscape and Urban Planning, 157, 394-406.

      Plieninger, T., Bieling, C., Fagerholm, N., Byg, A., Hartel, T., Hurley, P., ... & Huntsinger, L. (2015). The role of cultural ecosystem services in landscape management and planning. Current Opinion in Environmental Sustainability, 14, 28-33.

      Sardeshpande, M., Hurley, P. T., Mollee, E., Garekae, H., Dahlberg, A. C., Emery, M. R., & Shackleton, C. (2021). How people foraging in urban greenspace can mobilize social–ecological resilience during Covid-19 and beyond. Frontiers in Sustainable Cities, 3, 686254.

      Sardeshpande, M., & Shackleton, C. (2023). Fruits of the city: The nature, nurture and future of urban foraging. People and Nature, 5(1), 213-227.

      Schunko, C., & Brandner, A. (2022). Urban nature at the fingertips: Investigating wild food foraging to enable nature interactions of urban dwellers. Ambio, 51(5), 1168-1178.

      Shackleton, C. M., Hurley, P. T., Dahlberg, A. C., Emery, M. R., & Nagendra, H. (2017). Urban foraging: A ubiquitous human practice overlooked by urban planners, policy, and research. Sustainability, 9(10), 1884.

      Stark, P. B., Miller, D., Carlson, T. J., & De Vasquez, K. R. (2019). Open-source food: Nutrition, toxicology, and availability of wild edible greens in the East Bay. PLoS One, 14(1), e0202450.

      Synk, C. M., Kim, B. F., Davis, C. A., Harding, J., Rogers, V., Hurley, P. T., ... & Nachman, K. E. (2017). Gathering Baltimore’s bounty: Characterizing behaviors, motivations, and barriers of foragers in an urban ecosystem. Urban Forestry & Urban Greening, 28, 97-102.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (recommendations for the authors):

      The following are comments that the authors may wish to address or clarify:

      (1) The claim that respiration and fermentation occur concurrently in the agr mutant during aerobic growth is not strongly supported by the evidence presented…. However, since neither lactate production nor a difference in the NAD+/NADH ratio between the wild type and agr mutant was observed, it is challenging to assert that fermentation is occurring. Relying solely on a gene expression signature indicative of fermentation is, in my view, inadequate to conclusively establish that aerobic fermentation is taking place.

      Lactate production. The data we provide in Figure 5-E of the original manuscript (Figure 5-C in the revised manuscript) indicates that lactate production is lower in the wild-type compared to the Δagr mutant.

      The exact focus of Reviewer 1’s concern is not clearly specified, but may have been referring to how the result was described in the text:

      “Although the stimulatory effect of the agr deletion on production of the fermentation product lactate was not observed in optimally aerated broth cultures after growth to late exponential growth phase, it was confirmed for organisms grown in broth under more metabolically demanding, suboptimal aeration conditions (Figure 5E). Overall, these results are consistent with transcription-level up-regulation of respiratory and fermentative pathways in agr-deficient strains.”

      The greater sensitivity of suboptimal aeration conditions is unsurprising and relates to a low rate of fermentation during the vigorous aeration (shaking at 250 rpm) conditions commonly used to grow S. aureus. To clarify the point, we modified the text to provide additional context as follows:

      Line 271: “Although the stimulatory effect of the agr deletion on production of the fermentation product lactate was not observed in optimally aerated broth cultures after growth to late exponential growth phase, it was confirmed for organisms grown in broth under more metabolically demanding, suboptimal aeration conditions (limitations in the rate of respiration when oxygen is limiting are expected to increase overall levels of fermentation) (Figure 5C). Overall, these results are consistent with transcription-level up-regulation of respiratory and fermentative pathways in agr-deficient strains.” NAD+/NADH ratio. Extended studies of the NAD+/NADH ratio, requested by Reviewer 1 under Comments 12 and 13, document an effect of the Δagr mutant not seen in Figure 5F in the original submission. Our responses to Comments 12 and 13 below address this issue.

      (2) The mechanisms through which the ΔagrΔrot double mutant resists H2O2 are not clearly elucidated. While the authors suggest that the ΔagrΔrot double mutant expresses several genes involved in combating oxidative stress, essential genetic studies that would validate this hypothesis have not been conducted.

      The data we provide indicate 1) that wild-type strains are tolerant to peroxide and 2) that wild-type strains are able to render inducible several known reactive oxygen species (ROS)-protective genes in the presence of peroxide in a rot-dependent manner. Δagr strains, which do not demonstrate this response, are more readily killed by peroxide. Additional data indicate that increased respiration caused by deletion of agr is associated with increased endogenous ROS. Higher levels of endogenous ROS can modulate tolerance to subsequent challenge by ROS (1). Collectively, these observations support a model of Δagr-induced hyper-susceptibility in which elevation of endogenous ROS results in a suboptimal ROS-defense response that plays a role in increased peroxide lethality.

      We prefer to test this model in future studies directed at understanding the complexities of the interaction among agr-mediated tolerance, endogenous ROS levels, and induction of protective responses in S. aureus. Culprit protective genes, alone and in various combinations, will be inactivated in Δagr mutant and wild-type strains, tested in killing assays with and without agents that mitigate endogenous ROS, and subjected to RNAseq, proteomic, and metabolomic analyses, as part of a larger program to identify factors involved in S. aureus tolerance to lethal stress.

      To clarify the issue raised by the reviewer we altered the wording in the following sentences as follows:

      Line 335: “Elevated expression of protective genes suggests that the double mutant survives damage from H2O2 better because protective genes are rendered inducible (loss of Rot-mediated repression).”

      Line 440: “Details of agr-mediated protection are sketched in Figure 10. At low levels of ROS, agr is activated by a redox sensor in AgrA, RNAIII is expressed and represses the Rot repressor, thereby rendering protective genes (e.g., clpB/C, dps) inducible via an unknown mechanism (induction, candidate protective gene(s), and their connection to endogenous ROS levels are being pursued, independent of the current report).

      (3) The reason behind the agr mutant's low metabolic efficiency, as evidenced by low levels (Fig 5A) despite enhanced respiration and acetate production, is not clearly explained. Could insights from the modeling shed light on why the ATP levels are low in the agr mutant?

      Comparative modeling of central metabolic pathways, in combination with in vitro metabolic analyses of Δagr and wild-type strains, revealed the metabolic inefficiency but cannot explain it. The basis for the metabolic inefficiency conferred by agr inactivation is unknown. The possibility that aberrant sorting of cell wall surface proteins could lead to metabolic inefficiency was raised in the Discussion where we wrote:

      “Our work supports this idea by showing that increased respiration caused by deletion of agr is associated with increased ROS-mediated lethality. The basis for the metabolic inefficiency conferred by agr inactivation is unknown. Given that Δagr mutants are unable to downregulate surface proteins during stationary phase (2, 3), it is possible that deletion of agr perturbs the cytoplasmic membrane or the machinery that sorts proteins across the cell wall. In support of this notion, jamming SecY translocation machinery of E. coli results in downstream events shared with antibiotic lethality, including accelerated respiration and accumulation of ROS (4). In this scenario, the formation of a futile macromolecular cycle may accelerate cellular respiration to meet the metabolic demand of unresolvable problems caused by elevated surface sorting.”

      For clarification, we modified the text as follows:

      Line 461: “Our work supports this idea by showing that increased respiration caused by deletion of agr is associated with increased ROS-mediated lethality. How agr deficiency is connected to the corruption of downstream processes that result in metabolic inefficiency and increased endogenous ROS levels is unknown. Given that Δagr mutants are unable to downregulate surface proteins during stationary phase (2, 3), it is possible that deletion of agr perturbs the cytoplasmic membrane or the machinery that sorts proteins across the cell wall.”

      agr has been linked to defects in peptidoglycan autolysis (5). Cho et al. (2019) found that β-lactam treatment can induce a futile cycle of peptidoglycan synthesis and degradation that has been linked to increased production of endogenous ROS (6). Thus, an alternative, nonmutually exclusive route to a futile cycle and elevated endogenous ROS levels in agr-deficient cells other than surface protein dysregulation may be via decreased cell wall cross-linking. We prefer not to include this and other speculations, because they are not necessary or revealing and because they would detract from the manuscript by disrupting its sense of narrative and brevity.

      (4) The observation that menadione can protect the agr mutant from H2O2 is perplexing. The authors propose that even though menadione generates superoxide through redox cycling, this superoxide might inhibit the TCA cycle, thereby restricting respiration, which could be advantageous for the agr mutant. To substantiate this hypothesis, it would be imperative to demonstrate that a double mutant ΔagrΔacnA exhibits long-lived protection against H2O2.

      Rowe et al. (2020) definitively showed that a burst of menadioneassociated ROS inactivates the TCA cycle in S. aureus, leading to reduced respiration and ATP production (7). Both aconitase activity and ATP levels in menadione-treated cultures were complemented by the antioxidant N-acetyl cysteine. In the present work we demonstrate, using the same experimental conditions as Rowe et al., that menadione protected the Δagr mutant from peroxide killing but had little effect on the wild-type strain. Addition of N-acetyl cysteine in the presence of menadione restored H2O2 susceptibility to the Δagr mutant and had no effect on the wild-type. Collectively, these observations support the idea that menadione inactivates the TCA cycle, leading to reduced respiration, and increased protection of the Δagr mutant from peroxide killing.

      As requested, we tested whether the ΔagrΔacnA double mutant exhibits protection against H2O2. The new data we now provide (Figure 8—figure supplement 2A) show that a ΔacnA mutation completely protected the Δagr mutant from peroxide killing after growth to late exponential growth phase, but it had little if any effect on the wild-type strain. To evaluate long-lived protection, we compared survival rates of ΔagrΔacnA mutant and Δagr cells following dilution of overnight cultures and regrowth prior to challenge with H2O2, which revealed partial protection of the Δagr mutant (Figure 8— figure supplement 2B).

      We explained these results with the following:

      Line 351: “Rowe et al. (2020) showed that menadione exerts its effects on endogenous ROS by inactivating the TCA cycle in S. aureus. To determine whether this mechanism can also induce protection in the Δagr mutant, we inactivated the TCA cycle gene acnA in wild-type and Δagr strains (Figure 8—figure supplement 2). We found that ΔacnA mutation completely protected the Δagr mutant from peroxide killing after growth to late exponential growth phase but had little effect on the wild-type strain. This finding supports the idea that TCA cycle activity contributes to an imbalance in endogenous ROS homeostasis in the Δagr mutant, and that this shift is a critical factor for Δagr hyperlethality. When we evaluated long-lived protection by comparing survival rates of ΔagrΔacnA mutant and Δagr cells following dilution of overnight cultures and regrowth prior to challenge with H2O2, ΔacnA remained protective, but less so (Figure 8—figure supplement 2). These partial effects of an ΔacnA deficiency suggest that Δagr stimulates long-lived lethality for peroxide through both TCA-dependent and TCA-independent pathways.”

      (5) Figure 10 presents a model suggesting that Rot-mediated repression of respiration is essential for long-lasting resistance to H2O2 lethality. However, the connection between decreased respiration and long-lived resistance to ROS is not evident, especially considering that the respiration rate varies over the growth phase and does not seem to align with the long-lived and steady protection provided by agr. However, the authors could investigate this by examining whether inactivating qox in the agr mutant restores its resistance to H2O2. The experiments with menadione are not particularly persuasive, as menadione could have additional effects on the cells that are not accounted for.

      As requested, we tested whether the ΔagrΔqoxC double mutant exhibits protection against H2O2. qox deficiency was hyperlethal in wild-type and Δagr strains, even with the lowest concentration of H2O2 used in our assay. Indeed, surviving cells were undetectable, precluding comparison of survival differences between wild-type and Δagr mutant strains. This striking finding can be explained by prior work highlighting the profound and pleotropic effects of qox deficiency on metabolism that involve not only control of respiration but also participation in other physiological processes such as cell growth and morphological differences. For example, in Bacillus, qox deficiency decreases TCA cycle flux and increases overflow metabolism (8). Additionally, we confirmed prior work in S. aureus showing that qox deficiency decreases growth rate and yield (9, 10), dramatically increases production of pigment that functions as an oxidation shield, and decreases hemolytic activity (11). Moreover, we found that that qox deficiency results in a striking increase (~150%) in endogenous ROS in both wild-type and agr mutant cells, likely explaining the hyperlethality phenotype. Thus, interpretation of killing assay results must account for the complex and likely reciprocal interactions among Δqox-mediated metabolic changes, agrA-mediated redox sensing, and Δagrmediated changes in metabolism. Since killing data are not necessary or revealing without this information, we prefer to address the role of qox in future studies directed at understanding the complexities of the interaction among agr-mediated tolerance, endogenous ROS levels, and induction of protective responses in S. aureus.

      (6) The repeated use of the term 'agr wild type' throughout the text is somewhat distracting. It might be clearer to simply use 'wild type,' as it is implied that this refers to the agr+ genotype.

      We modified the text by replacing 'agr wild-type' with “wild-type” as suggested by the Reviewer.

      (7) In the text, the authors imply that the extended lag phase of the agr mutant is observed solely in nutrient-limited CDM. However, Figure 1 and Figure Supplement 3A reveal that the strains were actually cultivated in CDM supplemented with glucose and Casamino acids, which makes the medium rich in both carbon and nitrogen, in addition to other nutrients present in CDM. The authors should clarify the composition of the media used and assess whether the term 'nutrient-limited CDM' is accurate in this context.

      The extended lag phase of the Δagr mutant is observable in TSB but it is more easily appreciated in CDM, perhaps owing to a larger range of carbohydrates and other nutrient types (TSB a rich and complex medium for which the composition is unknown) and a higher concentration of glucose (2.5 mM versus 2.2 mM).

      For clarification, we modified line 135 as follows:

      Line 184: “Lag-time differences between strains were more obvious in experiments using less complex, chemically defined medium (CDM)…”

      (8) Figure 1 - Figure Supplement 3C represents the growth rate in terms of [OD/min]. However, it would be more accurate to calculate the growth rate (μ) based on the change in the natural logarithm of optical density (OD) relative to the corresponding change in time, using appropriate units (preferably, h⁻¹). Additionally, the method employed for measuring growth rates should be detailed in the Materials and Methods section.

      Our responses to Reviewer 2 Minor Comment 1 below address this issue.

      (9) The resolution of the inset charts in Figure 4B is poor, and the Y-axis lacks labels. The figure legend should also specify whether the flux distribution (represented by thick black arrows in Fig 4B) is predicted for the wild type or the mutant.

      We modified Figure 4B and the legend accordingly.

      (10) On Page 9, the term "RT-PCR" should be corrected to "RT-qPCR."

      We thank the Reviewer for their attention to detail in picking up our error. We modified text accordingly.

      (11) It is ambiguous whether the agr mutant is producing more acetate, based on the information provided in Figure 5B. Since the cells might have entered the post-exponential phase at 5 hours, they could start consuming acetate. Consequently, the elevated acetate concentration in the agr mutant might result from a delay in acetate consumption rather than increased production. To discern between the production and consumption of acetate, it is essential to measure acetate concentrations at earlier time points as well as the corresponding glucose concentrations in the media. This will help ascertain when the agr mutant enters the post-exponential phase. A similar concern also exists in the case of lactate (Fig 5E) since it is not clear when lactate was measured.

      As requested, we measured acetate levels at earlier time points (1, 2, 3, 4, h of growth). New Figure 5B shows that the Δagr mutant accumulated more acetate than the wild-type strain during exponential growth at 3 h, well before entry into postexponential phase (see growth curves in Figure 1—figure supplement 1).

      In the original report, lactate levels were measured at 4 h for organisms grown under suboptimal aeration conditions (see Reviewer 1, Comment 1). When we measured lactate accumulation at 3 h it remained higher in the Δagr mutant compared to the wildtype. Likewise, acetate levels at 3 h under suboptimal aeration conditions remained elevated in the Δagr mutant compared to the wild-type. These results support the idea that inactivation of agr promotes production rather than decreased consumption of acetate and lactate in the culture medium.

      (12) In Figure 5G-H, presenting the actual NAD+ and NADH values side-by-side would facilitate a more straightforward interpretation of the data by the readers.

      (13) On Page 9, the text states that respiration and fermentation lower the NAD+/NADH ratio. However, this seems contradictory as these processes would typically increase the NAD+/NADH ratio. Furthermore, it would be beneficial for the authors to provide supporting evidence for the statement made at the beginning of Page 10, which claims that there is greater consumption of NADH in the agr mutant.

      Responses to Comments 12 and 13 were grouped together.

      We thank the Reviewer for their attention to detail in picking up our error about the NAD+/NADH ratio. The ratio is expected to be elevated by increases in respiration and fermentation, not lowered, owing to increased consumption of NADH.

      Figure 5I in the submitted manuscript indicated a small but insignificant decrease in the NAD+/NADH ratio of the Δagr mutant. Thus, the NAD+/NADH ratio remained tightly bounded, but if anything was decreased, not increased.

      We explained this finding as follows:

      Line 284: “Collectively, these observations suggest that a surge in NADH production and reductive stress in the Δagr strain induces a burst in respiration and fermentation.”

      The NAD+/NADH ratio in Figure 5F of the submitted manuscript was calculated from NADH and total (NAD+/NADH) levels. As requested, we measured individual NAD+ and NADH concentrations. We found that the decrease in the NAD+/NADH ratio of the Δagr mutant was now large, significant, and largely due to a relative increase in NADH.

      We have included these new data in a revised Figure 5 in the revised version of the manuscript and clarify the relationship among the NAD+/NADH ratio, respiration, and fermentation in the Δagr mutant by modifying the wording of the text as follows:

      Line 280: “Since respiration and fermentation generally increase NAD+/NADH ratios and since these activities are increased in Δagr strains (Figure 5C and 5E-F), we expected a higher NAD+/NADH ratio relative to wild-type cells. However, we observed an increase decrease in the NAD+/NADH ratio due to a large surge in NADH accompanied by a modest drop in NAD+ compared to wild-type. Collectively, these observations suggest that a surge in NADH production and reductive stress in the Δagr strain induces a burst in respiration, but levels of NADH are saturating, thereby driving fermentation in the presence of oxygen.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) The RNA-seq analysis revealed that the Δagr strain exhibited increased expression of genes involved in respiration and fermentation, suggesting enhanced energy generation. However, metabolic modeling based on transcriptomic data indicated a decrease in tricarboxylic acid (TCA) cycle and lactate flux per unit of glucose uptake in the Δagr mutant. Additionally, intracellular ATP levels were significantly lower in the Δagr mutant compared to the wild-type strain, despite the carbon being directed into an acetate-generating, ATP-yielding carbon "overflow" pathway. Furthermore, growth analysis in nutrient-constrained medium demonstrated a decrease in the growth rate and yield of the Δagr mutant. Given that S. aureus actively utilizes the electron transport chain (ETC) to replenish NAD pools during aerobic growth on glucose, supporting glycolytic flux and pyruvate dehydrogenase complex (PDHC) activity while restricting TCA cycle activity through carbon catabolite repression (CCR), it is suggested that the authors analyze glucose consumption rates in conjunction with the determination of intracellular levels of pyruvate, AcCoA, and TCA cycle intermediates such as citrate and fumarate. These additional experiments will provide valuable insights into the metabolic fate of glucose and pyruvate and their subsequent impact on cellular respiration and fermentation in the Δagr mutant.

      (2) The authors highlighted the importance of redox balance in Δagr cells by emphasizing the tendency of these cells to prioritize NAD+-generating lactate production over generating additional ATP from acetate. However, the results regarding acetate and lactate production in Δagr cells during aerobic growth suggest that carbon is directed towards acetate generation rather than lactate.

      Responses to Comments 1 and 2 have been combined.

      As requested, we measured glucose consumption and intracellular levels of several different metabolites in the wild-type and Δagr mutant strain. The results are consistent with the idea that increased acetogenesis and fermentation in Δagr mutant cells contribute to increased ATP production and NAD+ recycling, respectively. These two processes appear to be relatively favored over the flux of pyruvate carbon into the TCA cycle of the Δagr mutant.

      We explained our finding as follows:

      Line 288: “To help determine the metabolic fate of glucose, we measured glucose consumption and intracellular levels of pyruvate and TCA-cycle metabolites fumarate and citrate in the wild-type and Δagr mutant strains. At 4 h of growth to late-exponential phase, intracellular pyruvate and acetyl-CoA levels were increased in the Δagr mutant compared to wild-type strain, but levels of fumarate and citrate were similar (Figure 5— figure supplement 1D-E). Glucose was depleted after 4 h of growth, but glucose consumption after 3 h of growth (exponential phase) was increased in the Δagr mutant compared to the wild-type strain (Figure 5—figure supplement 1A). These observations, together with the decrease in the NAD+/NADH ratio and increase in acetate and lactate production described above, are consistent with a model in which respiration in Δagr mutants is inadequate for 1) energy production, resulting in an increase in acetogenesis, and 2) maintenance of redox balance, resulting in an increase in fermentative metabolism, lactate production, and conversion of NADH to NAD+. Increased levels of acetate compared to lactate under optimal aeration conditions suggests that demand for ATP is in excess of demand for NAD+.”

      Future work will compare additional extracellular and intracellular (e.g., formate, ethanol, acetoin) metabolites to test these and other models using a combination of approaches (e.g., mass spectrometry, nuclear magnetic resonance, genetic deletion studies, transcriptomics) and will determine the mechanisms underlying metabolic differences in wild-type and Δagr mutant strains.

      To maintain a sense of narrative we added a new subheading after the explanation of our findings:

      Line 311: “Transcriptional changes due to Δagr mutation are long-lived and result in down-regulation of H2O2-stimulated genes relative to those in an agr wild-type.”

      (3) The authors mentioned that respiration and fermentation typically reduce the NAD+/NADH ratios, and since these activities are elevated in Δagr strains (Figure 5F-G), they initially anticipated a lower NAD+/NADH ratio compared to wild-type agr cells. However, the increase in respiration and activation of fermentative pathways leads to a decrease in NADH levels, therefore resulting in an increase in the NAD+/NADH ratio.

      We have clarified the issue with new experiments and by modifying the wording as shown in the response to Reviewer 1 Comment 13.

      (4) To improve the clarity and completeness of this work, it would be advantageous for the authors to provide specific details regarding the glucose concentration in the TSB media and the aeration conditions during growth, including the flask-tomedium ratio. These additional experimental parameters are essential for ensuring the reproducibility and comprehensiveness of the study, allowing for a more precise understanding and interpretation of the observed metabolic changes in the Δagr strain.

      We modified the Methods as suggested.

      Minor comments:

      (1) The growth rate in Figure 1-figure supplement 3 should not be presented as a simple calculation of OD/min and needs to be recalculated.

      We recalculated the growth rate and modified Figure 1 as suggested. The exponential phase was used to determine growth rate (µ) from two datapoints, OD1 and OD2 flanking the linear portion of the curve, following the equation lnOD2-lnOD1/t2-t1, as described (12).

      (2) Δrot (BS1301) should be removed from Figure 2 (A) legend as it is not presented in the panel A.

      We modified Figure 2 as suggested.

      (3) The authors should specify in the Figure 3 (D) legend that the kinetics of killing by H2O2 was performed for ΔrnaIII and ΔagrBD mixtures.

      We modified Figure 3 as suggested.

      (4) In the Figure 4 legend for (C), the statement "See Supplementary file 2 for supporting information" should be changed to "See Supplementary file 3 for supporting information."

      We modified Supplementary file name as suggested.

      References cited in responses

      (1) Brynildsen MP, Winkler JA, Spina CS, MacDonald IC, Collins JJ. 2013. Potentiating antibacterial activity by predictably enhancing endogenous microbial ROS production. Nature biotechnology 31:160-165.

      (2) Morfeldt E, Taylor D, von Gabain A, Arvidson S. 1995. Activation of alphatoxin translation in Staphylococcus aureus by the trans-encoded antisense RNA, RNAIII. EMBO J 14:4569-4577.

      (3) Novick RP, Ross HF, Projan SJ, Kornblum J, Kreiswirth B, Moghazeh S. 1993. Synthesis of staphylococcal virulence factors is controlled by a regulatory RNA molecule. EMBO J 12:3967-3975.

      (4) Takahashi N, Gruber CC, Yang JH, Liu X, Braff D, Yashaswini CN, Bhubhanil S, Furuta Y, Andreescu S, Collins JJ, Walker GC. 2017. Lethality of MalE-LacZ hybrid protein shares mechanistic attributes with oxidative component of antibiotic lethality. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 114:9164-9169.

      (5) Fujimoto DF, Bayles KW. 1998. Opposing roles of the Staphylococcus aureus virulence regulators, Agr and Sar, in Triton X-100- and penicillin-induced autolysis. J Bacteriol 180:3724-3726.

      (6) Cho H, Uehara T, Bernhardt TG. 2014. Beta-lactam antibiotics induce a lethal malfunctioning of the bacterial cell wall synthesis machinery. Cell 159:13001311.

      (7) Rowe SE, Wagner NJ, Li L, Beam JE, Wilkinson AD, Radlinski LC, Zhang Q, Miao EA, Conlon BP. 2020. Reactive oxygen species induce antibiotic tolerance during systemic Staphylococcus aureus infection. Nat Microbiol 5:282-290.

      (8) Zamboni N, Sauer U. 2003. Knockout of the high-coupling cytochrome aa3 oxidase reduces TCA cycle fluxes in Bacillus subtilis. FEMS Microbiol Lett 226:121-126.

      (9) Halsey CR, Lei S, Wax JK, Lehman MK, Nuxoll AS, Steinke L, Sadykov M, Powers R, Fey PD. 2017. Amino acid catabolism in Staphylococcus aureus and the runction of carbon catabolite repression. mBio 8.

      (10) Hammer ND, Reniere ML, Cassat JE, Zhang Y, Hirsch AO, Indriati Hood M, Skaar EP. 2013. Two heme-dependent terminal oxidases power Staphylococcus aureus organ-specific colonization of the vertebrate host. mBio 4.

      (11) Lan L, Cheng A, Dunman PM, Missiakas D, He C. 2010. Golden pigment production and virulence gene expression are affected by metabolisms in Staphylococcus aureus. J Bacteriol 192:3068-3077.

      (12) Grosser MR, Weiss A, Shaw LN, Richardson AR. 2016. Regulatory requirements for Staphylococcus aureus nitric oxide resistance. J Bacteriol 198:2043-2055.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Major Concerns:

      (1) An important point that the authors should clarify in this study is whether mice are detecting qualitative or quantitative differences between fresh and old cat saliva. Do the environmental conditions in which the old saliva was maintained cause degradation of Fel d 4, the main protein known for inducing a defensive response in rodents? (see Papes et al, 2010 again). If that is the case, one would expect that a lower concentration of Fel d 4 in the old saliva after protein degradation would result in reduced antipredator responses. Alternatively, if the authors believe that different proteins that are absent in the old saliva are contributing to the increased defensive responses observed with the fresh saliva, further protein quantification experiments should be performed. An important experiment to differentiate qualitative versus quantitative differences between the two types of saliva would be diluting the fresh saliva to verify if the amount of protein, rather than the type of protein, is the main factor regulating the behavioral differences.

      We thank the reviewer for their important suggestions. We agree that both the quality and quantity of molecular components in saliva undergo changes after the saliva is kept at room temperature for 4 hours. Our findings indicate that mice detect these changes through the VNO and adjust their defensive response patterns accordingly. For instance, freezing behavior is reduced in response to 4-hour-old saliva compared to fresh saliva. On the other hand, the duration of interaction with saliva (investigation behavior) remains low, and the stress hormone ACTH level is upregulated in both cases. A future study ought to identify the specific molecules—most likely proteins or peptides—in cat saliva responsible for these distinct defensive responses in mice. While Fel d 4 stands as one of the potential candidates as it has been shown to induce a form of defensive behavior in mice (Papes et al., 2010), there exists a possibility of a different molecule or a combination of multiple molecules playing a role. Once the molecules are identified, it is imperative to investigate how their quantity and quality change over time and how these factors correlate with freezing behavior in mice. Such an exploration will provide answers to this ethologically significant question raised by the reviewer. We added a paragraph in Discussion under the “The VNO as the sensor of predator cues that induce fear-related behavior” section to clarify this.

      (2) The authors claim that fresh saliva is recognized as an immediate danger by rodents, whereas old saliva is recognized as a trace of danger. However, the study lacks empirical tests to support this interpretation. With the current experimental tests, the behavioral differences between animals exposed to fresh vs. old saliva could be uniquely due to the reduced amount of the exact same protein (e.g., Fel d 4) in the two samples of saliva.

      As mentioned in response to comment 1, we agree with the alterations in both the quality and quantity of molecules within saliva after 4 hours. What we would like to emphasize in our current study is that mice detect these time-dependent changes through the VNO and subsequently adjust their defensive response patterns. Identifying the specific molecules responsible for inducing behavioral changes and investigating their time-dependent alterations is crucial in the next step. We added a paragraph in the Discussion under the 'The VNO as the sensor of predator cues that induce fear-related behavior' section to clarify this.

      (3) In Figure 4H, the authors state that there were no significant differences in the number of cFos-positive cells between the two saliva-exposed groups. However, this result disagrees with the next result section showing that fresh and old saliva differentially activate the VMH. It is unclear why cFos quantification and behavioral correlations were not performed in other upstream areas that connect the VNO to the VMH (e.g., BNST, MeA, and PMCo). That would provide a better understanding of how brain activity correlates with the different types of behaviors reported with the fresh vs. old saliva.

      We greatly appreciate this valuable advice. We added c-Fos immunoreactivity (IR) data in the BNST, MeApv, and PAG, together with the data for VMH as shown in new Figure 4G-J. Upon exposure to both fresh and old saliva, we observed an upregulation trend of cFos in the MeApv, VMH, and dPAG, but not in the BNST, compared to the control stimulus.

      Moreover, we conducted correlation analyses between the numbers of cFos-positive neurons and the duration of freezing behavior in those neural substrates, which have been added to new Figure 5. The numbers of cFos-IR signals in neurons in the BNST and dPAG did not correlate with the duration of freezing behavior in any of the exposure groups (Figure 5C, F). However, in addition to a significant positive correlation in the VMH for the fresh saliva-exposed group (R2 = 0.5708, 95% CI [-0.1449, 0.9714], p = 0.0412) (Figure 5E), we observed a similar positive correlation trend in the MeApv (R2 = 0.3854, 95% CI [0.3845, 0.9525], p = 0.0942), although it was not statistically significant possibly due to low sample numbers (Figure 5D).

      Based on these results, our current circuit model is as follows: different numbers of the VNO sensory neurons activated by fresh and old saliva result in differential excitation levels in mitral cells in the AOB. This, in turn, leads to the differential activation of targeting neural substrates, possibly MeApv, resulting in the differential activation of VMH neurons. This model is depicted in Figure 7 and discussed under the section of 'Differential processing of fresh and old saliva signals in the VNO-to-VMH pathway' in the Discussion."

      (4) The interpretation that fresh and old saliva activates different subpopulations of neurons in the VMH based on the observation that cFos positively correlates with freezing responses only with the fresh saliva lacks empirical evidence. To address this question, the authors should use two neuronal activity markers to track the response of the same population of VHM cells within the same animals during exposure to fresh vs. old saliva. Alternatively, they could use single-cell electrophysiology or imaging tools to demonstrate that cat saliva of distinct freshness activates different subpopulations of cells in the VMH. Any interpretation without a direct within-subject comparison or the use of cell-type markers would become merely speculative. Furthermore, the authors assume that differential activations of mitral cells between fresh and old saliva result in the differential activation of VMH subpopulations (page 13, line 3). However, there are intermediate structures between the mitral cells and the VMH, which are completely ignored in this study (e.g., BNST, medial amygdala).

      We appreciate this important feedback. We agree that performing a same-animal comparison for fresh and old saliva exposure will offer direct evidence of the differential activation of a sub-population of VMH neurons. However, there is technical difficulties. We have stimulated the same animal with the same or different types of swabs (e.g., Freshcontrol, fresh-fresh, fresh-old, or old-fresh) and observed that once mice were exposed to a saliva-containing swab and exhibited freezing behavior, they no longer made contact with the second swab within the timeframe when two different types of neuroactivity markers can be analyzed. As shown in Figure 2A, direct contact with the saliva swab is necessary for triggering saliva-elicited freezing behavior. Therefore, we concur that conducting further investigations into real-time neural activation responses to both fresh and old saliva within the same subjects, using an appropriate stimulus delivery method into the VNO, as demonstrated in (Bansal et al., 2021; Ben-Shaul et al., 2010; Bergan et al., 2014), would be useful to strengthen our argument.

      For the second part of the comment regarding the intermediate structures between the mitral cells and the VMH, please refer to our comment above in response to comment 3.

      (5) The authors incorrectly cited the Papes et al., 2010 article on several occasions across the manuscript. In the introduction, the authors cited the Papes et al 2010 study to make reference to the response of rodents to chemical cues, but the Papes et al. study did not use any of the chemical cues listed by the authors (e.g., fox feces, snake skin, cat fur, and cat collars). Instead, the Papes et al. 2010 article used the same chemical cue as the present study: cat saliva. The Papes et al. 2010 article was miscited again in the results section where the authors cited the study to make reference to other sources of cat odor that differ from the cat saliva such as cat fur and cat collars. Because the Papes et al. 2010 article has previously shown the involvement of Trpc2 receptors in the VNO for the detection of cat saliva and the subsequent expression of defensive behaviors by using Trpc2-KO mice, the authors should properly cite this study in the introduction and across the manuscript when making reference to their findings.

      The study conducted by Papes et al. in 2010 (Papes et al., 2010) explored mouse defensive responses triggered by native odors derived from three natural mouse predator species: cat, snake, and rat. These odors were derived from neck fur swabs, shed skin, and urine, respectively. Notably, all three types of samples induced defensive risk assessment and avoidance behaviors in mice. These responses were significantly diminished in Trpc2 knock-out (KO) mice, which lack the Trpc2 transduction channel in their vomeronasal sensory neurons, resulting in an impairment in transmitting sensory signals to the brain. Moreover, Papes et al. (2010) mentioned that, 'we did find cat saliva, a potential source of fur chemosignals, sufficient to induce c-Fos expression in the AOB and initiate defensive behavior.' While Papes et al. reported c-Fos expression in the AOB as well as behavioral responses induced by cat saliva in C57BL/6 mice, they did not provide information regarding the c-Fos expression or the defensive behavioral responses to cat saliva in Trpc2KO mice. Overall, we highly value these findings and explicitly state in the results section of our study that ‘Cat saliva has been considered as a source of predator cues found on cat fur and collars, which induce defensive behaviors in rodents (Engelke et al., 2021; Papes et al., 2010),’ providing the rationale for our utilization of cat saliva in our experimental design.

      (6) In the introduction, the authors hypothesized that the VNO detects predator cues and sends sensory signals to the VMH to trigger defensive behavioral decisions and stated that direct evidence to support this hypothesis is still missing. However, the evidence that cat saliva activates the VMH and that activity in the VMH is necessary for the expression of antipredator defensive response in rodents has been previously demonstrated in a study by Engelke et al., 2021 (PMID: 33947849), which was entirely omitted by the authors.

      We appreciate this insightful comment. Our original sentence meant that the direct evidence was missing for the hypothesis that the mouse VNO detects predator cues and sends sensory signals to the VMH, triggering appropriate defensive behavioral decisions. To clarify this, we altered the sentence (the last sentence of the second last paragraph in Introduction) to “However, how the sensory signals detected through the VNO-to-VMH circuitry modulate behavioral decisions in specific contexts remains elusive.

      The study in Engelke et al., 2021(Engelke et al., 2021) has shown that cat saliva activates the VMH and that activity in the VMH is necessary for the expression of antipredator defensive response, including freezing behavior, in rats. This important paper is now cited at multiple locations; page 4 line 16, page 9 line 8, and page 14 line 17. Interestingly, the vomeronasal receptor genes expressed in cat saliva-responsive VNO neurons, V2R-A4 subfamily genes, seem to have expanded independently within mice and rats, lacking direct V2R-A4 orthologues between mice and rats (Rocha et al. submitted). Therefore, exploring the sensory mechanism behind the induction of defensive behavioral responses in rats by cat saliva would be highly intriguing. Comparing the mechanism operating in rats with that observed in mice could offer valuable insights into understanding how the divergent sensory signaling pathways lead to the VMH-mediated defensive behavioral responses across different species.

      (7) In the discussion, the authors stated that their findings suggest that the induction of robust freezing behavior is mediated by a distinct subpopulation of VMH neurons. The authors should cite the study by Kennedy et al., 2020 (PMID: 32939094) that shows the involvement of VMH in the regulation of persistent internal states of fear, which may provide an alternative explanation for why distinct concentrations of saliva could result in different behavioral outcomes.

      We appreciate this valuable advice to cite this important paper. It is now cited at page 14 line 17 in the Discussion under “Differential activation of VMH neurons potentially underlying distinct intensities of freezing behavior.” We agree that it is intriguing to hypothesize that different freshness of cat saliva induces different degree of persistence of neural activity in a subpopulation of VMH neurons, which regulates the freezing behavior intensity.

      (8) The anatomical connectivity between the olfactory system and the ventromedial hypothalamus (VMH) in the abstract is unclear. The authors should clarify that the VMH does not receive direct inputs from the vomeronasal organ (VNO) nor the accessory olfactory bulb (AOB) as it seems in the current text.

      We apologize for the confusion caused by our statement in the abstract. The reviewer is correct that the VMH does not receive direct inputs from the VNO and AOB. The abstract now states: 'The vomeronasal organ (VNO) is one of the major sensory input channels through which predator cues are detected with ascending inputs to the medial hypothalamic nuclei, especially to the ventromedial hypothalamus (VMH), through the medial amygdala (MeA) and bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BNST).’

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Weakness:

      The findings are relatively preliminary. The identities of the receptor and the ligand in the cat saliva that induces the behavior remain unclear. The identity of VMH cells that are activated by the cat saliva remains unclear. There is a lack of targeted functional manipulation to demonstrate the role of V2R-A4 or VMH cells in the behavioral response to cat saliva.

      We concur with the reviewer’s comments and agree with the necessity to explore the behavioral response to cat saliva in mice with V2R-A4 receptor(s) knocked out, alongside those with targeted functional manipulations in the VMH. These future studies will allow us to further elucidate the molecular and neural mechanisms underlying this sensory-tohypothalamic circuit.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Weaknesses:

      (1) It is unclear if fresh and old saliva indeed alter the perceived imminence predation, as claimed by the authors. Prior work indicates that lower imminence induces anxiety-related actions, such as re-organization of meal patterns and avoidance of open spaces, while slightly higher imminence produces freezing. Here, the authors show that fresh and old predator saliva only provoke different amounts of freezing, rather than changing the topography of defensive behaviors, as explained above. Another prediction of predatory imminence theory would be that lower imminence induced by old saliva should produce stronger cortical activation, while fresh saliva would activate the amygdala, if these stimuli indeed correspond to significantly different levels of predation imminence.

      We thank the reviewer for this valuable insight. In our current study, we exclusively compared defensive behavioral responses to 15-minute-old and 4-hour-old cat saliva in mice within their home cages. In future studies, it would be intriguing to expand this investigation by examining behavioral changes in response to saliva collected at additional time points across diverse behavioral settings. Additionally, exploring neural activity in various brain regions in future studies would complement our understanding of these responses.

      (2) It is known that predator odors activate and require AOB, VNO, and VMH, thus replications of these findings are not novel, decreasing the impact of this work.

      We acknowledge the previous findings mentioned by the reviewer. Our finding in this paper is that cat saliva samples with different freshness predominantly activate different numbers of VNO sensory neurons expressing the same subfamily of sensory receptors, which results in differential activation of the downstream circuit to modulate behavioral outputs.

      (3) There is a lack of standard circuit dissection methods, such as characterizing the behavioral effects of increasing and decreasing the neural activity of relevant cell bodies and axonal projections, significantly decreasing the mechanistic insights generated by this work.

      We thank the reviewer for the valuable comments. We acknowledge that exploring the behavioral effects through the manipulation of specific cell types within defined neural substrates, along with characterizing circuit connectivity, is crucial to understand this circuit more thoroughly in future studies.

      (4) The correlation shown in Figure 5c may be spurious. It appears that the correlation is primarily driven by a single point (the green square point near the bottom left corner). All correlations should be calculated using Spearman correlation, which is non-parametric and less likely to show a large correlation due to a small number of outliers. Regardless of the correlation method used, there are too few points in Figure 5c to establish a reliable correlation. Please add more points to 5c.

      We thank the reviewer for this important suggestion. We assessed normality of the data using the Shapiro-Wilk and Kolmogorov-Smirnov tests, confirming that the dataset is parametric. We anticipate employing a larger sample size in future studies to further examine rigorous correlation patterns.

      (5) Some of the findings are disconnected from the story. For example, the authors show that V2R-A4-expressing cells are activated by predator odors. Are these cells more likely to be connected to the rest of the predatory defense circuit than other VNO cells?

      Yes, our hypothesis posits that V2R-A4-expressing VNO sensory neurons serve as receptor neurons for predator cues present in cat saliva. Additionally, we assume that these specific sensory neurons have stronger anatomical connections with the defensive circuit compared to VNO sensory neurons expressing other receptor subfamilies. In our modified Discussion section, we discussed this point under “V2R-A4 subfamily as the receptor for predator cues in cat saliva.”

      (6) Were there other behavioral differences induced by fresh compared to old saliva? Do they provoke differences in stretch-attend risk evaluation postures, number of approaches, the average distance to odor stimulus, the velocity of movements towards and away from the odor stimulus, etc?

      We appreciate the reviewer's valuable comments. We have now incorporated an analysis of stretch-sniff risk assessment behavior, presented in new Figure 1F (graph) and Supplemental Figure 1B (raster plot). Mice exhibited stretch-sniff risk assessment behavior, which remained consistent across control, fresh saliva, and old saliva swabs. Additionally, we have also included a raster plot for direct investigation, previously noted as ‘interaction’ in the original manuscript (Supplemental Figure 1C). Mice exposed to a swab containing either fresh or old saliva significantly avoided directly investigating the swab. In contrast, mice exposed to a clean control swab spent a significant amount of time directly investigating the swab, engaging in behaviors such as sniffing and chewing (Figure 1G). A comparison of temporal behavioral patterns revealed a slightly higher frequency of direct investigation behavior toward old saliva compared to fresh saliva at the beginning of the exposure period (Supplemental Figure 1C).

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (A) In the discussion (page 13, line 13), the authors proposed approaches to isolate receptors among the V2R-A4 subfamily that could be responsible for the detection of predator cues in cat saliva such as mRNA profiling from cells isolated from VNO GCaMP imaging. However, the authors argue that this method can lead to false positive results. The authors should clarify what they mean by this exactly.

      We meant that pairing of kairomones and their cognate vomeronasal receptors is overall challenging, and subsequent confirmations by performing loss-of-function, as well as gainof-function studies, are necessary to avoid false positive receptor-ligand pairings. We modified the sentence in the discussion as follows: “…. as well as receptor mRNA profiling from isolated single cells activated by cat saliva in GcaMP imaging using the VNO slices in vitro (Haga-Yamanaka et al., 2014; Wong et al., 2020). Receptor candidates identified using either of the methods can be further confirmed by examining necessity and sufficiency for detecting cat saliva using genetically modified mouse lines.”

      (B) In the discussion, the authors mention that imminent predator cues present in the cat saliva activate a specific population of VMN neurons. However, the authors have not demonstrated that imminent predator cues exist and the differences between fresh and old saliva are not simply a matter of concentration and integrity of the same protein (see a similar concern in item 2 above).

      In alignment with our responses to the reviewer’s public comments 1 and 2, we acknowledge the changes in both the quality and quantity of molecules in cat saliva when kept at room temperature for 4 hours. Our findings demonstrate that mice detect this timedependent alteration through the VNO, leading to subsequent adjustments in their defensive response patterns. The identification of specific molecules responsible for inducing behavioral changes and an exploration of their time-dependent alterations are crucial steps in our ongoing research. To provide further clarification, we have added a paragraph in the discussion section under 'The VNO as the sensor of predator cues that induce fear-related behavior.’

      (C) In the introduction, the authors cite several studies and reviews that investigated sensory neural circuits that mediate behavioral responses to chemical predator cues in mice. However, the majority of these studies used rats. Therefore, it is recommended to instead indicate that these studies focus on using rodent models.

      We appreciate this insightful comment. We have now replaced the term 'mice/mouse' with 'rodents' in corresponding parts of the manuscript.

      (D)The description of the extended amygdala is unclear and gives the impression that the posteroventral part of the medial amygdala is also part of the extended amygdala (page 3, line 25).

      We appreciate the reviewer’s important feedback. We have removed the phrase 'the extended amygdala consisting of' from the text.

      (E) The authors should justify why they have focused on the role of V2R-A4 in cat saliva detection. As shown in the Figure 3A schematic, many other receptors within the V2R family could have been evaluated. Additionally, the authors should indicate how many mice were used for calculating the ratio for each receptor in Figure 3C, and a group comparison should be performed.

      As shown in Supplemental Figure 2 and Figure 3C, our initial investigation involved assessing the co-localization of pS6 signals with signals derived from in situ hybridization probes for all V2R subfamilies. Each probe was designed to recognize all the receptor genes within the subfamily under the tested conditions. This examination led to the identification of V2R-A4, whose probe signals overlap with pS6 signals induced by exposure to cat saliva. In Figure 3C, the percentage of total overlap between the in situ probe and pS6 signals in VNO sections was examined from n=3-6 animals, which is now mentioned in the modified figure legend.

      (F) The authors should make it clear to readers at the very beginning of the manuscript that the behavioral differences between fresh and old saliva are not caused by the inefficiency of the old cat saliva to induce defensive responses. Thus, other antipredator behavioral responses should be also quantified (e.g., avoidance time, number and time of investigations to the cat saliva source, risk-assessment, etc.)

      We appreciate this valuable comment from the reviewer. In the original version of our manuscript, we used the term 'interaction' to indicate 'direct interaction with the swab for investigation.' We have now replaced the term 'interaction' with 'direct investigation' and added the temporal patterns of these behavioral episodes in Supplemental Figure 1C. Our observations indicate that mice avoid directly investigating both fresh and old saliva compared to the control (Figure 1G). However, there is a slight increase in investigation behavior toward old saliva at the beginning of exposure compared to fresh saliva (Supplemental Figure 1C). Furthermore, we have included the duration (Figure 1F) and temporal patterns (Supplemental Figure 1B) of stretch-sniff risk assessment behavior. Notably, stretch-sniff behavior did not differ towards control, fresh, and old saliva swabs.

      (G) The selected representative images for Gαo- and pS6-labeled neurons in Figure 2 should have similar levels of DAPI labeling. Further, the plot depicting the duration of freezing as a function of pS6-IR signals in the VNO (Figure 2H) is difficult to follow. The authors should indicate on the graph which data points represent fresh or old cat saliva exposure, similar to the style used in Figure 5 plots.

      We have replaced the representative image in Figure 2E to align the DAPI intensity. Additionally, we updated the data points in Figure 2H and introduced a color code to indicate saliva types.

      (H) The schematic in Figure 4 is misleading because the AOB does not directly project to the VMH. The authors should explain which regions are conveying indirect predator information from AOB to VMH (see a similar concern in item 7 above).

      We thank the reviewer’s important feedback. We modified the image in Figure 4A to show the entire defensive behavior circuit initiated from the VNO.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) This result suggests that V2R-A4 may be the dominant VR for mice to detect cat saliva.

      Future studies should determine the identity of the receptor and the ligand in the cat saliva. Additionally, the functional importance of V2R-A4 remains unclear. It is important to knockout the receptor and test changes in cat saliva-induced freezing.

      We concur with the reviewer’s comments and recognize the necessity of exploring the behavioral response to cat saliva in mice with V2R-A4 receptor(s) knocked out. Moreover, the identification of the ligand in cat saliva is critical for a deeper understanding of the molecular mechanisms in future studies.

      (2) AOB does not project to VMH directly. Other known important nodes for the predator defense circuit include MeApv, BNST, PMd, AHN, and PAG. It will be helpful to provide c-Fos data in those regions (especially MEA and BNST as they are between AOB and VMH) to provide a complete picture of how the brain processes cat saliva to induce the behavior change.

      We appreciate this important feedback by the reviewer. We have now added c-Fos expression analysis data in the BNST, MeApv, and PAG, in addition to the VMH. Upon exposure to fresh and old saliva, we observed the upregulation of cFos in the MeApv, VMH, and dPAG, but not in the BNST, compared to the control stimulus. The data are now shown in Figure 4G-J. Moreover, we also added correlation analyses between the numbers of cFospositive neurons and the duration of freezing behavior in those neural substrates to Figure 5. The numbers of cFos-IR signals in neurons in the BNST and dPAG, did not correlate with the duration of freezing behavior in any of the exposure groups (Figure 5C, F). However, in addition to a significant positive correlation in the fresh saliva-exposed group in the VMH (R2 = 0.5708, 95% CI [-0.1449, 0.9714], p = 0.0412) (Figure 5E), we observed a similar positive correlation trend in the MeApv (R2 = 0.3854, 95% CI [-0.3845, 0.9525], p = 0.0942), although it was not statistically significant possibly due to low sample numbers (Figure 5D). Based on these results, our current circuit model is as follows: different numbers of the VNO sensory neurons activated by fresh and old saliva result in differential excitation levels in mitral cells in the AOB. Differential excitation of mitral cells leads to the differential activation of targeting neural substrates, possibly MeApv, which results in differential activation of VMH neurons. This model is depicted in Figure 7 and discussed under the section of “Differential processing of fresh and old saliva signals in the VNO-toVMH pathway” in Discussion.

      (3) It is interesting that activation level difference in the VNO by old and fresh cat saliva does not transfer to AOB. It could be informative to examine the correlation between VNO and AOB p6/c-Fos cell number and AOB and VMH c-Fos cell number across animals to understand whether the activation levels across those regions are related. If they are not correlated, it could be helpful to add a discussion regarding potential reasons, e.g. neuromodulatory inputs to the AOB.

      We agree that analyzing the number of pS6/cFos-positive cells from all the regions in the same animals are ideal; however, due to technical difficulties, we were unable to collect the entire set of neural substrates from the same animals.

      (4) Please indicate n in all figure plots and specify what individual dots mean. In Figure 4h, there are 7 dots in the old saliva group, presumably indicating 7 animals. In Figure 6b, there appear to be more than 7 dots for the old cat saliva group. Are there more than 7 animals? If so, why are they not included in Figure 4h? If not, what does each dot mean? Note that each dot should represent an independent sample. One animal should not contribute more than one dot.

      We apologize for the confusion about Figure 6b. Each of these dots indicates the number of cFos signals in a single VMH hemisphere sample. The data used for this analysis were the same as the ones for the VMH used in Figure 4. This is now clarified in the figure legends.

      (5) The identification of a cluster of VMHdm cells uniquely activated by fresh cat saliva urine is interesting. It will be important to identify the molecular handle of the cells to facilitate further investigation. This could be achieved using either activity-dependent RNAseq or double in situ of saliva-induced c-Fos and candidate genes (candidate gene may be identified based on the known gene expression pattern).

      We agree that these experiments are very valuable. We would like to perform those experiments in future studies.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Please cite recent relevant papers showing VMH activity induced by predators, such as https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33115925/ and https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36788059/

      We thank the reviewer’s suggestion to cite these important papers. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33115925/ (Esteban Masferrer et al., 2020) and https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36788059/ (Tobias et al., 2023) are now cited at page 14 line 17 in the Discussion under “Differential activation of VMH neurons potentially underlying distinct intensities of freezing behavior.”

      (2) Add complete statistical information in the figure legends of all figures, which should include n, name of test used, and exact p values.

      We included statistical analysis results in figure legends; for Figure 6B, we provided statistical analysis results in Supplemental Table 1.

      (3) Please paste all figure legends directly below their corresponding figure to make the manuscript easier to read.

      We have added figure legends directly below their corresponding figures.

      Editor's note:

      Should you choose to revise your manuscript, please include full statistical reporting including exact p-values wherever possible alongside the summary statistics (test statistic and df) and 95% confidence intervals. These should be reported for all key questions and not only when the p-value is less than 0.05.

      Statistics analysis results have been included in figure legends and supplemental table 1.

      References

      Bansal R, Nagel M, Stopkova R, Sofer Y, Kimchi T, Stopka P, Spehr M, Ben-Shaul Y. 2021. Do all mice smell the same? Chemosensory cues from inbred and wild mouse strains elicit stereotypic sensory representations in the accessory olfactory bulb. BMC Biol 19:133.

      Ben-Shaul Y, Katz LC, Mooney R, Dulac C. 2010. In vivo vomeronasal stimulation reveals sensory encoding of conspeciic and allospeciic cues by the mouse accessory olfactory bulb. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 107:5172‒5177.

      Bergan JF, Ben-Shaul Y, Dulac C. 2014. Sex-speciic processing of social cues in the medial amygdala. Elife 3:e02743.

      Engelke DS, Zhang XO, OʼMalley JJ, Fernandez-Leon JA, Li S, Kirouac GJ, Beierlein M, Do-Monte FH. 2021. A hypothalamic-thalamostriatal circuit that controls approachavoidance conlict in rats. Nat Commun 12:2517.

      Esteban Masferrer M, Silva BA, Nomoto K, Lima SQ, Gross CT. 2020. Differential Encoding of Predator Fear in the Ventromedial Hypothalamus and Periaqueductal Grey. J Neurosci 40:9283‒9292.

      Papes F, Logan DW, Stowers L. 2010. The vomeronasal organ mediates interspecies defensive behaviors through detection of protein pheromone homologs. Cell 141:692‒703.

      Tobias BC, Schuette PJ, Maesta-Pereira S, Torossian A, Wang W, Sethi E, Adhikari A. 2023. Characterization of ventromedial hypothalamus activity during exposure to innate and conditioned threats. Eur J Neurosci 57:1053‒1067.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1:

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, the authors used machine learning algorithm to analyze published exosome datasets to find biomarkers to differentiate exosomes of different origin.

      Strengths:

      The performance of the algorithm are generally of good quality.

      Weaknesses:

      The source datasets are heterogeneous as described in Figure 1 and Figure 2, or Line 72-75; and therefore questionable.

      Response: We thank the reviewer for this assessment. The commonly used biomarkers of exosomes exhibit heterogeneous presence and abundance within the exosomes derived from different cell lines, tissue, and biological fluids. The primary goal of this study was to identify universal exosomal biomarkers that remain consistent across different sources of exosomes, unaffected by potential isolation and quantification bias. This objective was achieved through an integration of datasets from different sources, which allowed for the subsequent identification of common proteins associated with exosomes. Among the 18 protein markers identified, it is noteworthy that they are universally abundant in all cell lines and their exosomes. We believe that despite the heterogeneity of the datasets used here, the identification of 18 universal protein markers in exosomes from diverse sources is a strength of this analysis.

      (1) Nomenclature: Extracellular vesicles (EVs) are small vesicles released by cells into the extracellular space, exhibiting high heterogeneity in origin across species. Exosomes are typically defined as being of multivesicular body origin. However, the absence of several crucial common exosomal markers, including CD63, suggests that the proteomics analysis may include various other vesicular and non-vesicular materials.

      Response: As we reported previously (Kugeratski et al., Nature Cell Biology, 2021), the commonly used exosomal markers, such as CD9, CD63 and CD81 exhibit heterogeneity with respect to presence and abundance in the exosomes derived from different cell types. For example, CD63 demonstrated remarkably lower abundance in the exosomes derived from Raji cell lines. In our study, the detection rate of CD63 (< 50%) is quite low in the tissue-derived exosomes, which is consistent with the observations made in another proteomics based study (Hoshino et al., Cell, 2020). Therefore, relying solely on these markers is inadequate for the comprehensive characterization of EVs as exosomes. Therefore, we conducted this study to identify universal protein markers of exosomes by integrating data from multiple sources, thereby circumventing potential confounding effects due to their diverse origins and other technical differences.

      (2) Line 90: IPA is not prior in the manuscript.

      Response: We provided the full definition of IPA (Ingenuity Pathway Analysis) in the revised manuscript.

      (3) Figure 2B: Considering the large number of variables, it is unsurprising that the 2D PCA (Principal Component Analysis) falls short in the classification task. Including a few additional dimensions (principal components) might have the potential to better distinguish the cancer groups from the control group.

      Response: Thank you for this insightful query. The purpose of utilizing PCA here is to appreciate the heterogeneity associated with exosomes from different studies. While we acknowledge that additional dimensions may be more useful in distinguishing between cancer and control exosomes, we believe that derived performance will remain inferior to the machine learning approach we developed here.

      (4) Figure 2D: Exosomes primarily derive from multivesicular bodies, rather than the plasma membrane. It remains unclear why the authors focus specifically on proteins in the plasma membrane. Is it intended to encompass all membrane proteins? Clarification is needed on this point.

      Response: A good point. This study attempted to identify protein biomarkers of exosomes originating from different sources. Our approach involved considering proteins present on the plasma membrane as potential biomarkers also because many of them have been detected on the surface of exosomes.

      (5) Figure 2F: The 18 identified proteins are also abundantly present in control cells, not solely in cancer-derived "exosomes." The statement in line 104 is misleading in this regard.

      Response: We apologize for the misleading sentence. We have revised the statement to state that “In total, we identified a set of 18 exosome protein markers that are present at a higher abundance in all exosomes examined”.

      (6) Figure 3B: Considering the definition of exosomes, CD63 and TSG101 should be present in all samples, and their absence raises concerns.

      Response: We understand the concern of the reviewer. In this Figure, we analyzed CD63 and TSG101 in tissue-derived exosomes. Our results are consistent with the previous study also shows the paucity of these makers in the tissue-derived exosomes (Hoshino et al., Cell, 2020). Our study highlights that CD63 and TSG101 cannot always identify exosomes from diverse cell lines and tissues. Such initial observations motivated us to conduct this study to identify the universal biomarkers of exosomes across different sources.

      (7) Figure 6G&H: Achieving an accuracy of 80% cannot be deemed "excellent."

      Response: We employed the word “excellent” in line 225 to describe the sensitivity and specificity associated with AUROC.

      (8) Other comments on methods: The manuscript lacks an explanation of the neural network structure and why it outperforms other methods. Additionally, details about the calculation of MI (mutual information), IPA, and other methods should be provided.

      Response: This is a good suggestion but in this work we did not employ the neural networks for the analysis. We provided additional details and explanations regarding the methodology for mutual information score calculation, as well as insights into the improved use of IPA and other relevant methods in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #2:

      Summary:

      This is a fine work on the development of computational approaches to detect cancer through exosomes. Exosomes are an emerging biomarker resource and have attracted considerable interests in the biomedical field. Kalluri and co-workers collected a large sample pool and used random forest to identify a group of protein markers that are universal to exosomes and to cancer exosomes. The results are very exciting and not only added new knowledge in cancer research but also a new and advanced method to detect cancer. Data was presented very nicely and the manuscript was well written.

      Strengths:

      Identified new biomarkers for cancer diagnosis via exosomes.

      Developed a new method to detect cancer non-invasively.

      Results were presented nicely and manuscript were well written.

      Weaknesses:

      N/A.

      Response: We appreciate the the enthusiastic assessment of our study by the reviewer.

      Reviewer #3:

      In the current study, Li et al. address the difficulty in early non-invasive cancer diagnosis due to the limitations of current diagnostic methods in terms of sensitivity and specificity. The study brings attention to exosomes - membrane-bound nanovesicles secreted by cells, containing DNA, RNA, and proteins reflective of their originating cells. Given the prevalence of exosomes in various biological fluids, they offer potential as reliable biomarkers. Notably, the manuscript introduces a new computational approach, rooted in machine learning, to differentiate cancers by analyzing a set of proteins associated with exosomes. Utilizing exosome protein datasets from diverse sources, including cell lines, tissues, and various biological fluids, the study spotlights five proteins as predominant universal exosome biomarkers. Furthermore, it delineates three distinct panels of proteins that can discern cancer exosomes from non-cancerous ones and assist in cancer subtype classification using random forest models. Impressively, the models based on proteins from plasma, serum, or urine exosomes achieve AUROC scores above 0.91, outperforming other algorithms such as Support Vector Machine, K Nearest Neighbor Classifier, and Gaussian Naive Bayes. Overall, the study presents a promising protein biomarker signature tied to cancer exosomes and proposes a machine learning-driven diagnostic method that could potentially revolutionize non-invasive cancer diagnosis.

      Response: We appreciate this positive assessment of our work.

      (1) The authors should clarify why they focused solely on protein markers. Why weren't RNA transcripts also considered? Do the authors see value in incorporating RNA/micro RNA transcripts to enhance diagnostic capabilities?"

      Response: This is a very important point for further consideration. The current datasets for exosomal proteins are extensive and generally proteins might offer distinct advantages in cancer diagnostics compared to nucleic acids due to their stability in exosomes and extended half-life (Schey et al., Methods, 2015). We do agree that the power of analysis can only get better if also add DNA, RNAs and other constituents and we hope to pursue such analysis in the future.

      (2) Can the identified exosomal markers also be evaluated as prognostic indicators?

      Response: We appreciate this intriguing question. Indeed, proteins such as apolipoprotein E (APOE) may serve as a potential prognostic marker in various cancers (Ren et al., Cancer Medicine, 2019). APOE is being extensively studied as a prognostic and diagnostic marker for multiple cancer types, including colorectal cancer (Martin et al., BMC Cancer, 2014), gastric cancer (Sakashita et al., Oncology Reports, 2008), pancreatic cancer (Chen et al., Medical Oncology, 2013; Xu et al., Tumor Biology, 2016), and human hepatocellular carcinoma (Yokoyama et al., International Journal of Oncology, 2006). In these studies, APOE levels were found to be elevated in the serum of cancer patients and correlated with survival outcomes.

      (3) The discussion should emphasize if the identified protein markers are tumor-specific or if they indicate, for instance, the patient's immune reaction to the tumor.

      Response: A good point. We believe that the identified biomarkers are tumor-specific and a significant number of these proteins have been previously associated with tumor initiation and progression. Further studies will likely identify immune response-related biomarkers when more in-depth tumor-level analyses are performed.

      References:

      Chen, J., Chen, L. J., Yang, R. B., Xia, Y. L., Zhou, H. C., Wu, W., Lu, Y., Hu, L. W., & Zhao, Y. (2013). Expression and clinical significance of apolipoprotein E in pancreatic ductal adenocarcinoma. Med Oncol, 30(2), 583. https://doi.org/10.1007/s12032-013-0583-y

      Hoshino, A., Kim, H. S., Bojmar, L., Gyan, K. E., Cioffi, M., Hernandez, J., Zambirinis, C. P., Rodrigues, G., Molina, H., Heissel, S., Mark, M. T., Steiner, L., Benito-Martin, A., Lucotti, S., Di Giannatale, A., Offer, K., Nakajima, M., Williams, C., Nogues, L., . . . Lyden, D. (2020). Extracellular Vesicle and Particle Biomarkers Define Multiple Human Cancers. Cell, 182(4), 1044-1061 e1018. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cell.2020.07.009

      Kugeratski, F. G., Hodge, K., Lilla, S., McAndrews, K. M., Zhou, X., Hwang, R. F., Zanivan, S., & Kalluri, R. (2021). Quantitative proteomics identifies the core proteome of exosomes with syntenin-1 as the highest abundant protein and a putative universal biomarker. Nat Cell Biol, 23(6), 631-641. https://doi.org/10.1038/s41556-021-00693-y

      Martin, P., Noonan, S., Mullen, M. P., Scaife, C., Tosetto, M., Nolan, B., Wynne, K., Hyland, J., Sheahan, K., Elia, G., O'Donoghue, D., Fennelly, D., & O'Sullivan, J. (2014). Predicting response to vascular endothelial growth factor inhibitor and chemotherapy in metastatic colorectal cancer. BMC Cancer, 14, 887. https://doi.org/10.1186/1471-2407-14-887

      Ren, L., Yi, J., Li, W., Zheng, X., Liu, J., Wang, J., & Du, G. (2019). Apolipoproteins and cancer. Cancer Med, 8(16), 7032-7043. https://doi.org/10.1002/cam4.2587

      Sakashita, K., Tanaka, F., Zhang, X., Mimori, K., Kamohara, Y., Inoue, H., Sawada, T., Hirakawa, K., & Mori, M. (2008). Clinical significance of ApoE expression in human gastric cancer. Oncol Rep, 20(6), 1313-1319. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19020708

      Schey, K. L., Luther, J. M., & Rose, K. L. (2015). Proteomics characterization of exosome cargo. Methods, 87, 75-82. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.ymeth.2015.03.018

      Xu, X., Wan, J., Yuan, L., Ba, J., Feng, P., Long, W., Huang, H., Liu, P., Cai, Y., Liu, M., Luo, J., & Li, L. (2016). Serum levels of apolipoprotein E correlates with disease progression and poor prognosis in breast cancer. Tumour Biol. https://doi.org/10.1007/s13277-016-5453-8

      Yokoyama, Y., Kuramitsu, Y., Takashima, M., Iizuka, N., Terai, S., Oka, M., Nakamura, K., Okita, K., & Sakaida, I. (2006). Protein level of apolipoprotein E increased in human hepatocellular carcinoma. Int J Oncol, 28(3), 625-631. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16465366

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      We thank the editor for organizing the review of our manuscript. We have carefully read and analyzed the reviewers’ comments, addressed each criticism point-by-point as outlined below, and modified the manuscript and figures accordingly. In this regard, we would also like to take the opportunity to thank both reviewers for their thoughtful suggestions for improvement of our manuscript. We believe that our manuscript has improved as a result, and hope that it is now suitable for publication.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Aiming at the problem that Staphylococcus aureus can cause apoptosis of macrophages, the author found and verified that drug (R)-DI-87 can inhibit mammalian deoxycytidine kinase (dCK), weaken the killing effect of staphylococcus aureus on macrophages, and reduce the apoptosis of macrophages. And increase the infiltration of macrophages to the abscess, thus weakening the damage of Staphylococcus aureus to the host. This work provides new insights and ideas for understanding the effects of Staphylococcus aureus infection on host immunity and discovering corresponding therapeutic interventions.

      The logic of the study is commendable, and the design is reasonable.

      Some data related to the conclusion of the paper need to be supplemented, and some experimental details need to be described.

      Response: We thank the reviewer for the positive feedback along with the detailed and knowledgeable analysis of this paper. Specific details and comments on all raised concerns can be found below.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this study, Winstel and colleagues test if the deoxycytidine kinase inhibitor, (R)-DI-87 provides therapeutic benefit during infection with Staphylococcus aureus. The premise behind the current work is a series of prior studies that found that S. aureus can disable functional immune clearance by generating NET-derived deoxyribonucleosides to induce macrophage apoptosis via purine salvage. Here, the authors use in vitro and in vivo experiments with (R)-DI-87 to demonstrate that inhibition of deoxycytidine kinase prevents S. aureus-induced deoxyribonucleoside-mediated macrophage cell death, to bolster immune cell function and promote more effective clearance during infection. The authors conclude that (R)-DI-87 represents and potentially important Host-Directed Therapy (HDT) with good potential to promote natural clearance of infection without targeting the bacterium. Overall, the study represents an important next step in the exploration of purine salvage and deoxyribonucleoside toxicity as a targetable pathway to bolster infection clearance and provides early-stage evidence of the therapeutic potential of (R)-DI-87 during S. aureus infection.

      Response: We thank the reviewer for the thoughtful suggestions for improvement of our manuscript. Specific details and comments on all raised concerns can be found below.

      Strengths:

      The study has several strengths that support its conclusions:

      (1) Well-controlled in vitro studies that firmly establish (R)-DI-87 is capable of blocking deoxyribonucleoside-mediated apoptosis of immune cell lines and primary cells.

      (2) Solid evidence to support that administration of (R)-DI-87 can have therapeutic benefits during infection (reduced number of abscesses and reduced CFU).

      (3) Controls included to ascertain the degree to which (R)-DI-87 might have secondary effects on immune cell distribution.

      (4) Controls included to ascertain whether or not (R)-DI-87 has intrinsic antibacterial properties.

      Weaknesses:

      However, there are several important weaknesses related to the rigor of the research and the conclusions drawn. The most relevant weaknesses noted by this reviewer are:

      (1) Drawing firm conclusions about the therapeutic potential of (R)-DI-87 using only S. aureus strain Newman, a methicillin-susceptible S. aureus, that while a clinical isolate is not clearly representative of the strains of S. aureus causing infection in hospitals and communities. Newman also harbors an unusual mutation in a regulator that dramatically changes virulence factor gene expression. While the data with Newman remains valuable, the absence of consideration of other strains, including MRSA, makes it more difficult to support the relatively broad conclusions about therapeutic potential made by the authors.

      Response: We assume that this is a misunderstanding. S. aureus Newman is a patient-derived isolate and not a regulator mutant and/or laboratory strain (Duthie and Lorenz LL 1952, J Gen Microbiol 6(1-2), 95107). Its genome is fully sequenced (Baba et al. 2008, J Bacteriol 190(1):300-10) and it is highly virulent in mouse or human ex vivo models (e.g. Alonzo 3rd et al. 2013, Nature 493(7430):51-5.; DuMont et al. 2011, Mol Microbiol 79(3):814-25; Skaar et al. 2004, Science 305(5690):1626-8). Moreover, S. aureus Newman has served as a gold standard to study abscess formation in the past (e.g. Thammavongsa et al. 2013, Science 342(6160):863-6; Cheng et al. 2009, FASEB J 23(10):3393-404; Corbin et al. 2008, Science 319(5865):962-5) and has further also been used multiple times to test the therapeutic efficacy of antimicrobial or anti-infective agents in various animal models of infectious disease (e.g. Buckley et al. 2023, Cell Host Microbe 31(5):751-765.e11; Zhang et al. 2014, PNAS 111(37):13517-22; Richter et al. 2013, PNAS 110(9):3531-6). Apart from this, it is crucial to note that methicillin-sensitive isolates such as S. aureus Newman are typically more frequently isolated in hospitals as compared to MRSA. Specifically, public health system- and population-based surveillance studies clearly indicate that annual incidence rates for MSSA infections are dominant over those associated with MRSA infections (e.g. Gagliotti et al. 2021, Euro Surveill 26(46):2002094; Jackson et al. 2020, Clin Infect Dis 70(6):1021-1028; Laupland et al. 2013, Clin Microbiol Infect 19(5):465-71), even in groups at elevated risk (e.g. McMullan et al. 2016, JAMA Pediatr et al., 170(10):979-986; Ericson et al. 2015, JAMA Pediatr 169(12):1105-11). Although we understand and agree with the reviewer that certain MRSA clones can be a dominant cause of staphylococcal disease in specific geographic areas, we believe that S. aureus Newman adequately reflects staphylococcal isolates that cause the majority of infections in humans. In this regard, we would also like to highlight once more that (R)-DI-87 targets host dCK and not the bacterium. Accordingly, the antibiotic resistance status of S. aureus is not expected to impact our main findings and conclusions as (R)-DI-87 exclusively inhibits dCK, a key element of the mammalian purine salvage pathway.

      (2) In vitro (R)-DI-87 efficacy studies with dAdo and dGuo are strong, however, the authors do not test the in vitro efficacy of (R)-DI-87 using S. aureus. They have done this type of work in prior studies (See doi: 10.1073/pnas.1805622115 - Figure 5). If included it would greatly strengthen their argument that (R)-DI87 is directly affecting the S. aureus --> Nuclease --> AdsA macrophage-killing pathway. Without it, the evidence provided remains indirect, and several conclusions may be overstated.

      Response: We highly appreciate this comment and agree with the reviewer that such an experiment would support our main findings. Thus, we have performed additional experiments and took advantage of a previously described approach (Tantawy et al. 2022, Front Immunol 13:847171) to demonstrate that (R)DI-87-mediated inhibition of host dCK enhances macrophage survival upon treatment with culture media that had been conditioned by incubation with adsA-proficient or adsA-deficient staphylococci in the presence or absence of purine deoxyribonucleoside monophosphates. Our findings are described in the main text and in a new figure (Fig. 2K-L). Based on these new findings and together with our rAdsA-based approach (Fig. 2I-J), we are confident that (R)-DI-87 represents a suitable small molecule inhibitor of host dCK which can prevent host immune cell death induced by toxigenic products associated with the S. aureus Nuc/AdsA pathway.

      (3) Caspase-3 immunoblot experiments seem to suggest an alternative conclusion to what was made by the authors. They point out that Caspase-3 cleavage does not occur upon treatment with (R)-DI-87. However, the data seem to argue that there is almost no caspase-3 present in (R)-DI-87 treated cells (cleaved or uncleaved). Might this suggest that caspase-3 is not even produced when cells are not experiencing deoxyribonucleoside toxicity? Perhaps the authors could reconsider the interpretation of this data.

      Response: We believe that this is a misunderstanding. Our immunoblots (Fig. 3E-F) show only the processed forms of caspase-3. The antibody we have used can recognize full-length caspase-3 along with the p17 and p19 subunits that can result from cleavage. To clarify this point, we have slightly modified our main figure and provide the full immunoblots (Source data file) which clearly demonstrate that unprocessed caspase-3 (pro-caspase-3) is present in all samples. In this regard, we further note that caspase-3 can also form heterocomplexes with other proteins, presumably explaining some of the unknown bands in samples obtained from cells that have been exposed to death-effector deoxyribonucleosides. Additional bands are probably a result of cross-reactivity of the antibody and/or unspecific degradation of pro-caspase in cellular lysates.

      (4) There are some concerns over experimental rigor and clarity of the experimental design in the methods. The most important points noted by this reviewer are included here. (a.) There is no description of the number of replicates or representation of the Western blots and no uncropped blots are provided. (b.) the methods describing the treatment conditions for in vivo studies are not sufficiently clear. For example, it is hard to tell when (R)-DI-87 is first administered to mice. Is it immediately before the infection, immediately after, or at the same time? This has important implications for interpreting the results in terms of therapeutic potential. (c.) There are several statements made that (R)-DI-87 does not have a negative impact on the mice however, it is not sufficiently clear that the studies conducted are sufficient to make this broader claim that (R)-DI-87 has no impact on the animal, except as it relates to the distribution of immune cells, which is directly tested. (d.) there are no quantitative measures of apoptosis or macrophage infiltration, which impacts the rigor of these imaging experiments. (e.) only female mice are used in the in vivo studies. There is no justification provided for this choice; however, the rigor of the study design and the ability to draw conclusions about therapeutic potential is impacted in the absence of consideration of both sexes.

      Response: Thank you for raising these points here. (a) We have modified our figure legend and provide the full immunoblots (Source data file) in order to clarify this point. (b) Moreover, we now provide more experimental details on the treatment conditions that were used to administer (R)-DI-87 to mice (methods section). (c) Furthermore, we have conducted new experiments in order to demonstrate that administration of (R)-DI-87 has no impact on laboratory animals. Specifically, we provide new data along with additional text on organ cellularity following long-term exposure of mice to (R)-DI-87. In this regard, we have also applied our immuno-phenotyping approach to spleen tissues samples derived from mice that received (R)-DI-87 or vehicle. As outlined in our new results, neither developmental errors nor differences in lymphocyte development have been observed (new Fig. 4B-C; new supplementary Fig. 3). Together with our data on mouse body weight along with our immuno-phenotyping approach of blood cells (Fig. 4A and 4D) and the fact that (R)-DI-87 is extremely well tolerated in humans (personal communication; Kenneth A. Schultz, Trethera Corporation, Los Angeles, CA, USA), we are very confident that application of (R)-DI87 is safe and has no detrimental impact on the host. (d) Lastly, we would like to point out that due to the densely packed and extremely sticky cuff of immune cells within staphylococcal abscesses, it is technically not possible to extract enough abscess material required for a reliable quantification of apoptotic macrophages within infectious foci. Such an analysis would also not allow us to differentiate between lesion-infiltrating macrophages and macrophages that may reside at the periphery of the abscess. For these reasons, we have established a fluorescence microscopy-based approach to demonstrate increased macrophage infiltration rates into abscesses formed in organs of mice that have been treated with the dCK-specific inhibitor (R)-DI-87 (Fig. 5A-P). Nonetheless, we have slightly modified our figure and its legend in order to help the readership to localize S. aureus-derived tissue lesions and the periphery of abscesses in these images. (e) Finally, publicly available databases indicate that dCK is equally well expressed in various tissues in both sexes. Moreover, dCK is not encoded on a sex chromosome, neither in mice nor in humans. Thus, we believe that it is justified to test the in vivo efficacy of (R)-DI-87 in female mice. Nonetheless, we have conducted additional in vitro experiments to test whether (R)-DI-87 can protect male animal-derived BMDMs from death-effector deoxyribonucleosides in a manner similar to cells derived from female mice. As expected, we did not observe a sex-specific effect (new supplementary Fig. 5), and hope that this adequately addresses this point.

      (5) Animal studies show significant disease burden (CFU) even after administration of (R)-DI-87. Given the absence of robust clearance of infection, the author's claims read as an overstatement of the data. The authors may wish to reframe their conclusions to better highlight the potential benefit of this therapy at reducing severe disease but also to point out relevant limitations, especially considering that it does not lead to clearance in this model. In general, the consideration of the limitations of the proposed therapeutic approach, as uncovered by the data, is not present. A more nuanced consideration of the data and its interpretations, including both strengths and limitations, would greatly help to frame the study.

      Response: Thank you for raising this point here. To highlighting the limitations of our approach, we have modified several passages in the main text. Moreover, we have adjusted our discussion section accordingly.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) In vivo experiments, the dose given to mice was 75mg/kg. How did the author determine the dose of this drug?

      Response: We thank the reviewer for this question, which gives us the chance to clarify this point. The experimental condition used to block host dCK in mice has been adopted from a previous publication (Chen et al. 2023, Immunology 168(1):152-169). To improve the overall quality of our current manuscript, we now included more background information addressing this point. Specifically, we have added additional in vivo and biochemical data along with more conclusive text to our results section to better explain the reason for the dose given to mice (new Fig. 4E).

      (2) The author established a mouse model of Staphylococcus aureus blood infection in vivo and divided four groups for related experiments. It is suggested that the authors should supplement the survival rate of mice in each group so that readers can understand the effect of the drug on the survival of mice with bloodstream infection.

      Response: While this is an interesting suggestion by the reviewer, we believe that this is beyond the scope of our study. In particular, the current study focused on analyzing the capacity of the dCK-specific inhibitor (R)-DI-87 to improve macrophage survival during staphylococcal abscess formation in an effort to lower bacterial loads in infected organ tissues. However, we agree with the reviewer that (R)-DI-87 might also help to improve further clinical syndromes of staphylococcal infections, including lethal bloodstream infection. We therefore modified parts of our discussion to address this point.

      (3) In the in vivo experiment, the author administered the drug by intragastric administration, but the treatment was for the bloodstream infection of Staphylococcus aureus, so the author needed to determine the actual effective concentration of the drug in the blood of mice.

      Response: We thank the reviewer for this comment and agree that inclusion of more background information and data would be a valuable addition to our manuscript. As outlined above, we have designed our in vivo experiments based on the methodology of a previous publication (Chen et al. 2023, Immunology 168(1):152-169). Similar to Chen and colleagues, we have also used a dose of 75 mg/kg of (R)-DI-87 that allows complete inhibition of host dCK in vivo. In this regard, we have now performed additional in vivo experiments to address this point. More precisely, we took advantage of a highly sensitive and LC-MS/MSbased method to measure accumulation of deoxycytidine, the natural substrate of host dCK, in mouse plasma upon administration of the dCK-specific inhibitor. As shown in our new Fig. 4E, administration of (R)-DI-87 at a dose of 75 mg/kg strongly increased deoxycytidine levels in mouse plasma thereby indicating that host dCK activity is completely blocked under these experimental conditions.

      (5) This work is to reduce the apoptosis of macrophages through drug inhibition of dck, but not directly inhibit the related virulence of Staphylococcus aureus. Therefore, it is suggested that the author modify the title to summarize the whole paper more accurately.

      Response: We agree with the reviewer that our manuscript’s title might be a bit misleading as (R)-DI-87 does not directly target the bacterium or staphylococcal virulence factors. Thus, we have modified the title of our revised manuscript to: “Targeting host deoxycytidine kinase mitigates Staphylococcus aureus abscess formation”.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      In this manuscript, Lee et al. compared encoding of odor identity and value by calcium signaling from neurons in the ventral pallidum (VP) in comparison to D1 and D2 neurons in the olfactory tubercle (OT).

      Strengths:

      They utilize a strong comparative approach, which allows the comparison of signals in two directly connected regions. First, they demonstrate that both D1 and D2 OT neurons project strongly to the VP, but not the VTA or other examined regions, in contrast to accumbal D1 neurons which project strongly to the VTA as well as the VP. They examine single unit calcium activity in a robust olfactory cue conditioning paradigm that allows them to differentiate encoding of olfactory identity versus value, by incorporating two different sucrose, neutral and air puff cues with different chemical characteristics. They then use multiple analytical approaches to demonstrate strong, low-dimensional encoding of cue value in the VP, and more robust, high-dimensional encoding of odor identity by both D1 and D2 OT neurons, though D1 OT neurons are still somewhat modulated by reward contingency/value. Finally, they utilize a modified conditioning paradigm that dissociates reward probability and lick vigor to demonstrate that VP encoding of cue value is not dependent on encoding of lick vigor during sucrose cues, and that separable populations of VP neurons encode cue value/sucrose probability and lick vigor.

      Weaknesses:

      The conclusions of the data are mostly well supported by the analyses, but the statistical analysis is somewhat limited and needs to be clarified and extended.

      (1) The manuscript includes limited direct statistical comparison of the neural populations, and many of the comparisons between the subregions are descriptive, including descriptions of the percentage of neurons having specific response types, or differences in effect sizes or differing "levels" of significance. An additional direct comparison of data from each subpopulation would help to confirm whether the differences reported are statistically meaningful.

      Response: We thank the reviewer for their helpful suggestions. As the reviewer noted, the first version of our manuscript had limited direct comparisons of single-neuron metrics across subpopulations. These analyses were also limited to the supplementary figures: 1) {SK vs. XK} and {SK vs. ST} decoder auROC (S10F), 2) Valence scores (S10G), and 3) S-cue confusion after MNR classification (S11D). We have now included the following statistical comparisons of single-neuron metrics across subpopulation: 1) % of neurons that respond to both S cues (Tables S10, S11), 2) % of neurons that have auROC >0.75 for {SK vs. XK}, {SK vs. PK}, and {SK vs. ST} (Tables S12-S17), 3) response magnitudes to S cues (Table S38), and 4) valence scores (Tables S44-46).

      (2) When hypothesis tests are conducted between the neural populations, it is not clear whether the authors have accounted for the random effect of the subject, or whether individual units were treated as fully independent. For instance, pairwise differences are reported in Figures 4I, 5G/I/L, and others, but the statistical methods are unclear. Assessment of the statistics is further limited by the lack of reporting of degrees of freedom. If the individual neurons are treated as independent in these analyses, it could increase the likelihood of

      Response: We have clarified when statistical analyses are comparing individual neurons vs. simultaneously recorded populations. Per the reviewer’s recommendation, we have also incorporated linear mixed-effects models when statistically analyzing individual neurons. Lastly, to further clarify the statistical analyses used, we have added multiple supplementary tables that better describe the statistical tests used and the relevant outputs.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This work is interesting since the authors provide an in vivo analysis into how odor-associations may change as represented at the level of olfactory tubercle (presynaptic) and next at the level of the ventral pallidum (postsynaptic). First the authors start-off with a seemingly careful characterization of the anterograde and retrograde connectivity of dopamine 1 receptor (D1) and dopamine 2 receptor (D2) expressing medium spiny neurons in the olfactory tubercle and neurons in the ventral pallidum. From this work they claim that regardless of D1 or D2 expression, tubercle neurons mainly project to the lateral portion of the ventral pallidum. Next, to compare how odor-associated neuronal activity in the ventral pallidum and the olfactory tubercle (D1 vs D2 MSNs) transforms across association learning, the authors performed 2photon calcium imaging while mice engaged in a lick / no-lick task wherein two odors are associated with reward, two odors are associated with no outcome, and two odors are associated with an air puff.

      This manuscript builds off of prior work by several groups indicating that the olfactory tubercle neurons form flexible learned associations to odors by looking at outputs into the pallidum (but without looking specifically at palladial neurons that truly get input from tubercle I should highlight) and with that, this work is novel. We appreciated the use of a straight-forward odoroutcome behavioral paradigm and the careful computational methods and analyses utilized to disentangle the contributions of single neurons vs population level responses to behavior. With one exception from the Murthy lab, 2P imaging in the tubercle is a new frontier and that is appreciated - as is the 2P imaging in the pallidum which was well-supported by the histology. The anatomical work is also well presented.

      Overall the approach and methods are superb. The issues come when considering how the authors present the story and what conclusions are made from these data. Several key points before going into specifics about each are: 1) The authors can not conclude that their results are contradictory to prior results, 2) The authors over-interpret the results and do not discuss several key methodological issues. We were concerned with the ability to make strong claims regarding the circuitry presented, especially given how much the presented claims contradict prior work. There were also issues with the interpretability of neuronal encoding of value vs valence based on the present behavior (in which a distinction between the air puff and neutral trial types was not clear) and the imaging methodology (in which the neuronal populations analyzed were not clearly defined). In addition to toning down and rectifying some of the language and interpretations, we suggest including a study limitations section where these methodological and interpretation issues are discussed. Over-interpreting and playing up the significance of this work is unnecessary, especially given eLife's new review and publication policy. Readers should be given a sufficiently detailed and nuanced presentation of these thought-provoking results, and from there allowed to interpret the results as they want.

      Strengths:

      State-of-the-art approaches (as detailed above)

      Possible conceptual innovation in terms of looking into output from the olfactory tubercle which has yet to be investigated in this avenue.

      Weaknesses:

      On the first point regarding the authors repeated and unsupported claims that their results are contradictory. There are papers by numerous groups, in respected journals including this one, all together which used 5 different methods (cfos, photometry, 2P, units, fMRI), in animals ranging from humans to mice, which support that tubercle neurons reflect the emotional association of an odor, whether spontaneous or learned. With that, it is on the authors to not claim that their results contradict as if the other papers are suspect, but instead, from our standpoint it is on the authors to explain how and why their results differ from these other papers versus just simply saying they found something different [which at present is framed in a way that is 'correct' due to primacy if nothing else].

      Response: We acknowledge that the first version of the manuscript contained unnecessary disagreeing language. We do not think that our results are broadly in disagreement with the existing literature, but we do come to different conclusions about what the OT is representing. Namely, our comparison of valence encoding in OT to that in the VP strongly indicates that the anteromedial OT has a less robust representation of valence, and we argue that this reflects either an intermediate form of valence representation or potentially might not be important for valence representation at all. We have toned down our conclusions, made clear that we are only recording from one domain of the OT, limited our speculation to the discussion and added a “speculations” section.

      Second, onto the points of interpretation of results, there are several specific areas where this should be rectified. As is, the authors overinterpret their results and draw too far-reaching conclusions. This needs to be corrected.

      In particular, the claims that D1 and D2 neurons of the olfactory tubercle nearly exclusively send projections to the ventral pallidum must be interpreted with caution given that the authors injected an anterograde AAV into the anteromedial olfactory tubercle, and did not examine the projections from either the posterior or lateral portions of the olfactory tubercle. This is especially significant since the retrograde tracing performed from the ventral pallidum indicates that the lateral olfactory tubercle, not the medial olfactory tubercle, primarily projects to the ventral pallidum (Fig 1D-F), however this may be due to leakage into the nucleus accumbens, as seen in the supplementary figure, S1G.

      Response: We thank the reviewer for the point of caution. We have now made it clear that our conclusions are limited to the anteromedial portion of the OT, and other areas may have other projections.

      The same caution must be advised when interpreting the retrograde tracing performed in Fig 1G-I, since the neuronal tracer used and the laterality and rostral-caudal injection site within the VTA could result in different projection patterns and under- or over-labelling. Additionally, the metric used, %Fiber Density (Figure 1C), as in the percentage of 16-bit pixels within the region of interest with an intensity greater than 200, is semi-quantitative, and is more applicable for examining axonal fibers that pass through a region rather than the synaptic terminals (like with a synaptophysin fusion protein-based tracing paradigm) found within a region (puncta). The statements made in contrast to prior studies should therefore be softened, and these concerns should be addressed in the introduction, discussion, and the limitations section if added.

      Response: We have added statements to address these limitations.

      The other major concern is whether the behavioral data generated is indicative of the full spectrum of valence. The authors appropriately state that the mice "perceive" the air puff, yet based on their data the mice did not clearly experience the puff-associated odor as emotionally aversive (viz., negative valence). The way the authors describe these results, it seems they agree with this. With that, the authors can't say the puff is aversive without data to show such - that is an assumption which, while seemingly intuitive, is not supported by the data unfortunately. To elaborate more since this is important to the messaging of the paper: The authors utilized a simple behavioral design, wherein two molecular classes of odors were included in either a sucrose rewarded, neutral no outcome, or air puff punished trial type. The odor-outcome pairs were switched after three days, allowing the authors to compare neuronal responses on the basis of odor identity and the later associated outcome. While the mice showed clear learning of the rewarded trial types by an increase in anticipatory licking during the odor, they did not show any significant changes in behavior that indicated learning of the air puff trial type (change in running velocity or % maximal eye size), especially in contrast to the neutral trial type. This brings up the concern that either the odor-air puff aversive associations (to odors) were not learned, or that the neutral trial types, in which a reward was omitted, were just as aversive as the air puff to the rear, despite the lack of startle response - perhaps due to stimulus generalization between neutral and air puff odor. The possibility of lack of learning is addressed in the paragraph starting at line 578, but does not account for the possibility that the lack of reward is also sufficiently punishing. The authors also address the possibility that laterality in the VP contributed to the lack of neural responsivity observed, but should also include a statement regarding laterality in the olfactory tubercle, as described in https://doi.org/10.7554/eLife.25423 and https://doi.org/10.1523/JNEUROSCI.0073-15.2015, since the effects of modulating the lateral portion of the olfactory tubercle are not yet reported. Lastly, use of the term "reward processing" should be avoided/omitted since the authors did not specifically study the processing of reinforcers.

      Response: As the reviewer points out, we tried to be cautious interpreting the “aversive” odor response, and focused mainly on the reward association. This was discussed in the discussion. We don’t see the need to further add a redundent statement to a “limitations section”. We have also added a note about the previously identified laterality of the OT, which might account for lack of aversive responsive neurons in the OT. The reviewer makes an interesting suggestion that behavioral responses to airpuff-associated odors are not significantly different from un-associated because the lack of reward in this context is already aversive. We note that the walking velocity between reward- and puff-associated odor is significantly different, but not that to unassociated. This is in agreement with the suggestion, and we have added a statement to reflect this.

      Also, I would appreciate justification of the term "value". How specifically does the assay used assess value versus a more simplistic learned association which influences perceived hedonics or valence of the odors.

      Response: We have removed the term “value” with the exception of areas where we cite the work of others. We acknowledge that the word value is complicated in the incentive learning field and appreciate the suggestion. Our experimental design was meant to investigate learned association for positive and negative stimuli, thus valence is more appropriate and we have used this term.

      More information is needed regarding how neurons are identified day-to-day, both in textual additions to the Methods and also in terms of elaborating more in the results and/or figure legends about what neurons are included:

      (a) The ROI maps for identifying/indicating cells in the FOVs are nice to see and at the same time raise some concerns about how cells are identified and/or borders for those specific ROIs drawn. For instance, Figure 4, A & D, ROI #13 (cell #13) between those two panels is VERY different in shape/size. Also see ROIs 15 and 4. Why was an ROI map not made on day 1 and then that same map applied and registered to frames from consecutive imaging days in that same mouse? As it is new ROIs are drawn, smaller for some "cells" and larger for others. And at least in ROI #13 above, one ROI is about twice as large as the other. This inconsistency in the work flow and definition of the ROIs is needing to be addressed in Methods. Also, the authors should address if and how this could possibly impact their results.

      Response: We have added details and clarified the methods section to make this more clear. We note that we extracted calcium transients from the raw data with the the widely used Constrained Nonnegative Matrix Factorization (CNMF) algorithm. This processing algorithm simultaneously identifies spatial and temporal components using modeled kinetics of calcium transients and pre-trained CNN classifiers. Using 2-photon microscopy the optical resolution in the z plane is narrow and we may not always capture components of a neuron that look like “neurons”, but all ROIs were confirmed manually to ensure they were not artifacts.

      (b) Also, more details are needed in results and/or figure legends regarding the changes in cell numbers over days that are directly compared in the results. Some days there are 10% or more or less cells. Why? It is not the same population being compared in this case and so some Discussion of this is needed.

      Response: The shapes of the spatial components can vary across days due to nonrigid motion in the brain and/or miniscule differences in the imaging angle across days. Although we visually verified that we are imaging approximately the same z plane across days, we cannot (and do not) claim to image identical populations of neurons across days.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This manuscript describes a study of the olfactory tubercle in the context of reward representation in the brain. The authors do so by studying the responses of OT neurons to odors with various reward contingencies and compare systematically to the ventral pallidum. Through careful tracing, they present convincing anatomical evidence that the projection from the olfactory tubercle is restricted to the lateral portion of the ventral pallidum.

      Using a clever behavioral paradigm, the authors then investigate how D1 receptor- vs. D2 receptor-expressing neurons of the OT respond to odors as mice learn different contingencies. The authors find that, while the D1-expressing OT neurons are modulated marginally more by the rewarded odor than the D2-expressing OT neurons as mice learn the contingencies, this modulation is significantly less than is observed for the ventral pallidum. In addition, neither of the OT neuron classes shows significant modulation by the reward itself. In contrast, the OT neurons contained information that could distinguish odor identities. These observations have led the authors to conclude that the primary feature represented in the OT is not reward.

      Strengths:

      The highly localized projection pattern from olfactory tubercle to ventral pallidum is a valuable finding and suggests that studying this connection may give unique insights into the transformation of odor by reward association.

      Comparison of olfactory tubercle vs. ventral pallidum is a good strategy to further clarify the olfactory tubercle's position in value representation in the brain.

      Weaknesses:

      The authors' interpretation of the physiologic results - that a novel framework is needed to interpret the OT's role - requires more careful treatment.

      Response: We thank the reviewer for their recommendation. We have toned down the conclusiveness of our language in the discussion. Additionally, we have removed several speculative sentences from the concluding paragraph.

      Reviewer recommendations for Authors:

      We thank the reviewers for this helpful list of recommended changes to the manuscript.<br /> Regrettably, a few of the recommendations were overlooked in the revision, as indicated below.<br /> We do agree with the suggestions and plan to add appropriate changes to the version of record.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      If the comparisons mentioned in point 2 in the public review do not account for the lack of independence of individual neurons, I suggest the authors do so by either running linear mixed effects models with a random effect for subject, or one-way ANOVAs with a random effect of subject, where appropriate. The authors could also run analyses on summarized individual subject data (averages, % of neurons, etc.), though the authors would lose substantial power when assessing whether average changes differ between subjects in each recording group.

      We have clarified when statistical analyses are comparing individual neurons vs. simultaneously recorded populations. Per the reviewer’s recommendation, we have also incorporated linear mixed-effects models when statistically analyzing individual neurons. Lastly, to further clarify the statistical analyses used, we have added supplementary tables for every statistical test that better describe the parameters used and the relevant outputs.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Of minor note, there are some symbols/special characters that did not translate in the figure caption for Figure 6C, repeated text between lines 700-705 and 707-712, and some other small grammatical errors. Additionally, the source of the anterograde tracing virus (AAV9-phSyn1FLEX-tdTomato-T2A-SypEGFP-WPRE) needs to be stated.

      Thank you for pointing these out. We have added description to the figure legend, and deleted the repeated lines and fixed grammatical errors. During the revision, we Regrettably overlooked the request to provide the source for the AAV9-phSyn1-FLEX-tdTomato-T2A-SypEGFP-WPRE. We agree that this small detail is important and will add it before publication of the version of record. This viral vector was purchased from The Salk Institute GT3 Core.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The authors' interpretation of the physiologic results - that a novel framework is needed to interpret the OT's role - requires more careful treatment. As the authors note, there is rewardcontingency modulation in OT, especially when D1 neurons are compared against D2, as shown in Fig. 3D,E, Fig. 4I, and Fig. F,J. Though small in effect size, presumably, these modulations cannot be explained by the odor identity. These observations, to this reviewer, suggest the D1 neurons of OT have a component of cue-reward representation. In other words, rather than developing an entirely new framework, an alternative possibility that D1 neurons of OT occupy an intermediate stage in associating cues with reward (i.e., under the same framework, but occupying a different position in the emergence of value representation) should be considered.

      We thank the reviewer for this thoughtful comment. We have eliminated the statement that “novel framework is needed” and have been more conservative in our interpretations. We have also acknowledged that our results are not necessarily in conflict with existing literature, but we do draw different conclusions, namely that the anteromedial OT is not a robust valence encoding population in comparison to that in the VP. We appreciate the suggestion of the term “intermediate stage” in reward association and have now included this in the discussion. Lastly, we have limited broader speculation to a “speculation” section of the discussion.

      Related to the above point, have the authors analyzed if the similarities in the chemical structures correspond to perceptual and neural similarities? In the data presented in Figure S4, there are greater similarities in the population patterns within the same rewarding condition than within chemical groups. A comparison of the reward vs. chemical group (a simpler version of Fig. 5B) may be beneficial and take full advantage of the experimental design.

      This comparison already exists in 5B and lines 285-289 of results. In VP populations, the distribution was structured such that intervalence pairwise comparisons between sucrose-paired and not sucrose-paired odors (e.g. ||SK-PK|| and ||SK-XK||) were larger than intravalence pairwise comparisons (e.g. ||SK-ST||, or ||XK-XT||). OTD1 populations showed an intermediate trend where most intravalence pairwise distances were smaller than intervalence pairwise distances with the exception of ||SK-ST||.

      Related to the point about chemical similarities - is the smaller effect size (amount of modulation associated with reward contingency) in this study, compared to the study by Martiros et al, explained by the similarities of odorants used?

      This is an interesting point. Although the odorants we use are different from those in Martiros et al, we think it is unlikely to the basis of smaller effect size due to reward modulation. If OT represents odor in a population code, whereby identity is encoded in unique ensembles of activity, then variation in the expression of D1R between OT neurons could account for different effects in different ensembles. However, there is no evidence for such varied expression and it doesn’t seem like an ideal mechanism for the OT to broadly associate odor with reward. Moreover, we do not observe any differences in effect size of reward association between the different odorants used in our study. Rather, we think the difference between our findings is more likely to result from recording in different populations of neurons, which is addressed in lines 522-535.

      Regarding the data presented in Fig. 3I - the rewarded odor responses (Sk) are compared against neutral ones (Xk responses), but an S vs. P comparison may be informative, too. Even though the authors mention that the effect of air puff is subtle, the behavioral data presented in Fig. 2F and G suggest that these serve as aversive stimuli. For example, on day 4, the first day after the reward contingency switch, the licking levels seem the lowest for the P odors.

      We have added the S vs P comparison. Indeed, we had originally omitted this because the neural and behavioral response to puff cues was not robust. This is discussed in the discussion (lines 563-579), and our conclusions about aversive conditioning are cautious.

      Regarding the data presented in Fig. 4G: it is difficult to interpret the data when the data for day 1 reward period and day 3 reward cue period are combined. Or do the authors mean day 1 S cue and day 3 S cue?

      These data were based on an observation that some neurons in the VP only responded to sucrose (not odor) on day 1, but later became responsive to the associated odor on day 4. To quantify this, Fig. 4G shows the percentage of these neurons by reporting the percentage that were both responsive to sucrose (not odor) on day 1 and also rewarded odor on day 3. This is described in lines 260-274.

      Figure 6 presentation would benefit from a revision. For example, it is unclear if the water port becomes available for the "N" odors with 100% or 50% chance of reward delivery, and if so, how that happens. There are some errors e.g., colormap used for panel G; odors listed may be wrong in line 752 etc. It was unfortunately not possible to understand what was presented.

      We have added a schematic (Fig 6B) to better describe the movement of the port and details to the methods. The color scale was indeed inverted in panel G (now H), and it has been corrected. We have verified that the odors listed in the methods are correct. Although not included in the revision, in the version of record we will also add corresponding descriptors (e.g., LHi & Lx) to the odors in the methods for easier comparison.

      Minor comments

      For Figure 2H, an alternative description in the legend may be beneficial, as the phrasing is not intuitive. A suggested alternative is "licks in response to sugar-associated odors expressed as fraction of all odors".

      We appreciate the suggestion and have changed this to “licks during either sucrose cue expressed as a fraction of all licks during any odor.”

      Figure 2H: please explain the color code for crosses in the legend and the statistical comparison shown in the figure.

      We have added a legend to explain the color code and included a statement about the statistics in the legend with a link to a supplemental table for statistical parameters.

      Figure 3D: may contain mislabeling in the legend - the legend for 3D does not match the plot (legend refers to bar graph while plot shows line graphs)

      Unclear what is meant. 3D legend says: “Percentage of total neurons that were significantly excited or inhibited by each odor (Bonferroni- adjusted FDR < 0.05) as a function of time relative to odor. Lines represent the mean across biological replicates and the shaded area reflects the mean ± SEM.” This is not a bar plot and is not referred to as one. 3E does show bar plots and is correctly described in the legend.

      Figure 3M: uses letters to refer to cell populations that are identical to the roman numerals used in Fig 3 A-C as well as colours similar to the ones in Fig 3C. However, the cell groups are unrelated; splitting the figures or using a different nomenclature might help

      We have adapted a different color code that we think makes this more distinct.

      Figure 4I: statistical comparison shown in figure not explained (neither in main text nor legend)

      We have added a statement about the statistical comparison and referenced a supplementary table.

      Figure 5 D: color code appears to have a different range than the values shown (i.e. lower limit is 0.7 while the plot shows values below 0.7)

      We confirm this is not a mistake but a stylistic choice. The displayed color scale does only show values to lower limit of 0.7, while the lower limit of values is 0.67. Although the color for 0.67 is not shown in the scale it is approximately the same as the lower limit. The values are reported for full transparency and accuracy.

      Figure 5 G, I, & L: statistical comparison shown in figure not explained

      The comparisons have been explained in supplemental tables (S22-29) and referenced in the legend.

      Figure 5 I: meaning of symbols overlayed over bars not explained

      “Markers represent the mean across biological replicates” has been added.

      Figure 5 J&K: please state if error bars show SEM or SD; also please describe individual thinner lines in the legend

      This has been added to describe 5I. The same format applies to J&K.

      Figure 5L: please describe the individual crosses overlayed over bars in the legend

      Described in 5I.

      Figure S6A-C: please mention the odors used.

      S6A-C shows kinetics for the odor a-terpinene, which is now indicated in the legend.

      Line 129: mentions a 70 psi airpuff but methods say 75 psi - please clarify This has been corrected. 70 psi is the correct value.

      Line 134 typo: SP should be PK

      This has been corrected.

      Line 428: typo; should be cluster 3, not 2

      This has been corrected.

      Line 474 (and figure 6O): please explain what "P" is

      “P” is probability, used as P(S), as in probability of sucrose. This is defined in in line 466.

      Line 692: please describe the staining protocol in the methods (rather than just listing the antibodies and concentrations)

      We have added more details (lines 692-699).

      Line 707-712: duplicate text (identical to Line 700-705)

      This has been deleted.

  7. Feb 2024
    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The OSCA/TMEM63 channels have recently been identified as mechanosensitive channels. In a previous study, the authors found that OSCA subtypes (1, 2, and 3) respond differently to stretch and poke stimuli. For example, OSCA1.2 is activated by both poke and stretch, while OSCA3.1, responds strongly to stretch but poorly to poke stimuli. In this study, the authors use cryo-EM, mutagenesis, and electrophysiology to dissect the mechanistic determinants that underlie the channels' ability to respond to poke and stretch stimuli.

      The starting hypothesis of the study is that the mechanical activation of OSCA channels relies on the interactions between the protein and the lipid bilayer and that the differential responses to poke and stretch might stem from variations in the lipid-interacting regions of OSCA proteins. The authors specifically identify the amphipathic helix (AH), the fenestration, and the Beam Like Domain (BLD) as elements that might play a role in mechanosensing.

      The strength of this paper lies in the technically sound data - the structural work and electrophysiology are both very well done. For example, the authors produce a high-resolution OSCA3.1 structure which will be a useful tool for many future studies. Also, the study identifies several interesting mutants that seemingly uncouple the OSCA1.2 poke and stretch responses. These might be valuable in future studies of OSCA mechanosensation.

      However, the experimental approach employed by the authors to dissect the molecular mechanisms of poke and stretch falls short of enabling meaningful mechanistic conclusions. For example, we are left with several unanswered questions surrounding the role of AH and the fenestration lipids in mechanosensation: Is the AH really important for the poke response if mutating residues conserved between OSCA1.2 and OSCA3.1 disrupts the OSCA1.2 ability to respond to poke but mutating the OSCA1.2 AH to resemble that of OSCA3.1 results in no change to its "pokability"? Similar questions arise in response to the study of the fenestrationlining residues.

      We thank the reviewer for their feedback. We believe that the different OSCA1.2 mutants on their own suggest an involvement of the AH and fenestration-lining residues in its mechanosensitive response. We attribute the inability to restore the poke response of OSCA3.1 with similar mutations to its inherent high threshold to this particular stimulus and perhaps other structural differences, or a combination of them, that we did not probe in this study. We agree more work is required in the field to address these remaining questions and further dissect the difference between poke and stretch responses.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Jojoa-Cruz et al. determined a high-resolution cryo-EM structure in the Arabidopsis thaliana (At) OSCA3.1 channel. Based on a structural comparison between OSCA3.1 and OSCA1.2 and the difference between these two paralogs in their mechanosensitivity to poking and membrane stretch, the authors performed structural-guided mutagenesis and tested the roles of three structural domains, including an amphipathic helix, a beam-like domain, and a lipid fenestration site at the pore domain, for mechanosensation of OSCA channels.

      Strengths:

      The authors successfully determined a structure of the AtOSCA3.1 channel reconstituted in lipid nanodiscs by cryo-EM to a high resolution of 2.6 Å. The high-resolution EM map enabled the authors to observe putative lipid EM densities at various sites where lipid molecules are associated with the channel. Overall, the structural data provides the information for comparison with other OSCA paralogs.

      In addition, the authors identified OSCA1.2 mutants that exhibit differential responses to mechanical stimulation by poking and membrane stretch (i.e., impaired response to poke assay but intact response to membrane stretch). This interesting behavior will be useful for further study on differentiating the mechanisms of OSCA activation by distinct mechanical stimuli.

      Major weakness:

      The major weaknesses of this study are the mutagenesis design and the functional characterization of the three structural domains - an amphipathic helix (AH), a beam-like domain (BLD), and the fenestration site at the pore, in OSCA mechanosensation.

      (1) First of all, it is confusing to the reviewer, whether the authors set out to test these structural domains as a direct sensor(s) of mechanical stimuli or as a coupling domain(s) for downstream channel opening and closing (gating). The data interpretations are vague in this regard as the authors tend to interpret the effects of mutations on the channel 'sensitivity' to different mechanical stimuli (poking or membrane stretch). The authors ought to dissect the molecular bases of sensing mechanical force and opening/closing (gating) the channel pore domain for the structural elements that they want to study.

      We agree with the reviewer that our data are unable to distinguish the transduction of a mechanical stimulus and channel gating. We set up to determine whether these features were involved in the mechanosensitive response. However, as the reviewer points out, evaluating whether they work as direct sensors or coupling domains would require a more involved experimental design that lies beyond the scope of this work. Thus, we do not claim in our study whether these features act as direct sensors of mechanosensitive stimuli or as coupling domains, only their involvement.

      Furthermore, the authors relied on the functional discrepancies between OSCA1.2 (sensitive to both membrane poking and stretch) and OSCA3.1 (little or weak sensitivity to poking but sensitive to membrane stretch). But the experimental data presented in the study are not clear to address the mechanisms of channel activation by poking vs. by stretch, and why the channels behave differently.

      We had hoped that when we switched regions of the OSCA1.2 and OSCA3.1 channels we would abolish poke-induced responses in OSCA1.2 and confer poke-induced sensitivity to OSCA3.1. We agree with the reviewer that we were not able to pinpoint the reason or multiple reasons, as it could be a compounded effect of several differences, that caused OSCA3.1 higher threshold and thus we could not confer to it an OSCA1.2-like phenotype. Yet, we shed some light on some of the structural differences that appear to contribute to OSCA3.1 behavior, as mutagenesis of OSCA1.2 to resemble this channel led to OSCA3.1-like phenotype.

      (2) The reviewer questions if the "apparent threshold" of poke-induced membrane displacement and the threshold of membrane stretch are good measures of the change in the channel sensitivity to the different mechanical stimuli.

      The best way to determine an accurate measure of sensitivity to mechanical stimuli is stretch applied to a patch of membrane. There are more complicating factors that influence the determination of "apparent threshold" in the whole cell poking assay, including visualizing when the probe first hits the cell (very difficult to see). With that said, the stretch assay has its own issues such as the creep of the membrane into the pipette glass which we try to minimize with positive pressure between tests.

      (3) Overall, the mutagenesis design in the various structural domains lacks logical coherence and the interpretation of the functional data is not sufficient to support the authors' hypothesis. Essentially the authors mutated several residues on the hotspot domains, observed some effects on the channel response to poking and membrane stretch, then interpreted the mutated residues/regions are critical for OSCA mechanosensation. Examples are as follows.

      In the section "Mutation of key residues in the amphipathic helix", the authors mutated W75 and L80, which are located on the N- and C-terminal of the AH in OSCA1.2, and mutated Pro in the OSCA1.2 AH to Arg at the equivalent position in OSCA3.1 AH. W75 and L80 are conserved between OSCA 1.2 and OSCA3.1. Mutations of W75 and/or L80 impaired OSCA1.2 activation by poking, but not by membrane stretch. In comparison, the wildtype OSCA3.1 which contains W and L at the equivalent position of its AH exhibits little or weak response to poking. The loss of response to poking in the OSCA1.2 W/L mutants does not indicate their roles in pokinginduced activation.

      Besides, the P2R mutation on OSCA1.2 AH showed no effect on the channel activation by poking, suggesting Arg in OSCA3.1 AH is not responsible for its weak response to poking. Together the mutagenesis of W75, L80, and P2R on OSCA1.2 AH does not support the hypothesis of the role of AH involved in OSCA mechanosensation.

      Mutagenesis of OSCA1.2 in the amphipathic helix for residues W75 and L80 suggests a role of the helix in the poke response in OSCA1.2, regardless of OSCA3.1 having the same residues. Furthermore, the lack of alteration in the response for mutant P77R suggests that specific residues of the helix are involved in this response and is not a case where any mutation in the helix will lead to a loss of function.

      OSCA3.1 WT exhibits a high-threshold response (near membrane rupture) in the poke assay without any mutations, and this could be due to other features, for example, the residues lining the membrane fenestration, as well as features not identified/probed in this study. We agree with the reviewer that the differences in the AH do not explain the different response to poke in OSCA1.2 and OSCA3.1, and we have added this statement explicitly in the discussion for clarification (line #251-252).

      In the section "Replacing the OSCA3.1 BLD in OSCA1.2", the authors replaced the BLD in OSCA 1.2 with that from OSCA3.1, and only observed slightly stronger displacement by poking stimuli. The authors still suggest that BLD "appears to play a role" in the channel sensitivity to poke despite the evidence not being strong.

      We agree with the reviewer that the experiments carried out show little difference between the response of OSCA1.2 WT and OSCA1.2 with OSCA3.1 BLD, and we have stated so (line #259: “Substituting the BLD of OSCA1.2 for that of OSCA3.1 had little effect on poke- or stretchactivated responses. Although these results suggest that the BLD may not be involved in modulating the MA response of OSCA1.2…”). However, the section of the discussion that the reviewer points out also considers evidence provided by recent reports from Zheng, et al. (Neuron, 2023) and Jojoa-Cruz, et al. (Structure, 2024) and we suggest an hypothesis to reconcile our findings with these new evidence.

      OSCA1.2 has four Lys residues in TM4 and TM6b at the pore fenestration site, which were shown to interact with the lipid phosphate head group, whereas two of the equivalent residues in OSCA3.1 are Ile. In the section "Substitution of potential lipid-interacting lysine residues", the authors made K435I/K536I double mutant for OSCA1.2 to mimic OSCA3.1 and observed poor response to poking but an intact response to stretch. Did the authors mutate the Ile residues in OSCA3.1 to Lys, and did the mutation confer channel sensitivity to poking stimuli resembling OSCA1.2? The reviewer thinks it is necessary to perform such an experiment, to thoroughly suggest the importance of the four Lys residues in lipid interaction for channel mechanoactivation.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We agree that the suggested experiments will further improve the quality of the results, but we are no longer able to perform such experiments.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Jojoa-Cruz et al provide a new structure of At-OSCA3.1. The structure of OSCA 3.1 is similar to previous OSCA cryo-em structures of both OSCA3.1 and other homologues validating the new structure. Using the novel structure of OSCA3.1 as a guide they created several point mutations to investigate two different mechanosensitive modalities: poking and stretching. To investigate the ability of OSCA channels to gate in response to poking they created point mutations in OSCA1.2 to reduce sensitivity to poking based on the differences between the OSCA1.2 and 3.1 structures. Their results suggest that two separate regions are responsible for gating in response to poking and stretching.

      Strengths:

      Through a detailed structure-based analysis, the authors identified structural differences between OSCA3.1 and OSCA1.2. These subtle structural changes identify regions in the amphipathic helix and near the pore that are essential for the gating of OSCA1.2 in response to poking and stretching. The use of point mutations to understand how these regions are involved in mechanosensation clearly shows the role of these residues in mechanosensation.

      Weaknesses:

      In general, the point mutations selected all show significant alterations to the inherent mechanosensitive regions. This often suggests that any mutation would disrupt the function of the region, additional mutations that are similar in function to the WT channel would support the claims in the manuscript. Mutations in the amphipathic helix at W75 and L80 show reduced gating in response to poking stimuli. The gating observed occurs at poking depths similar to cellular rupture, the similarity in depths suggests that these mutations could be a complete loss of function. For example, a mutation to L80I or L80Q would show that the addition of the negative charge is responsible for this disruption not just a change in the steric space of the residue in an essential region.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We agree that the suggested experiments will further improve the quality of the results, but we are unable to perform such experiments due to the authors having moved on from the respective labs.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I have several questions regarding some of the aspects of your study:

      Mutation of the hydrophobic W75 and L80 in OSCA1.2 to charged residues significantly decreases the poke response in OSCA1.2 without affecting the stretch response. However, W75 and L80 are also present in OSCA3.1, which does not respond efficiently to poke. You conclude that these two residues are important for the poke response, but do not delve into why, if these residues are important, OSCA3.1 is not poke-sensitive.

      In addition, mutation of the OSCA1.2 AH to resemble that of OSCA3.1 does not produce channels that are less poke-sensitive. Given the data presented, if AH were a universal "poke sensor", one could also expect WT OSCA3.1 to exhibit a robust poke response, like OSCA1.2. Here I think it would be important to explain in more detail how this data might fit together.

      We thank the reviewer for bringing up this issue. We decided to test the importance of the AH due to the presence of similar structures in other mechanosensitive channels. Our data showed that single and double mutants of the AH of OSCA1.2 affected its poke response but not stretch. This supports the idea of the AH involvement in the poke response. Yet, we agree that the differences in the AH between OSCA1.2 and OSCA3.1 (P77R mutation) do not explain the higher threshold of OSCA3.1, we have explicitly added this in line #255. The particular OSCA3.1 phenotype may be due to other differences in the structure, for example, differences in the membrane fenestration area, or a combined effect of several differences, which we believe is more likely.

      I also have some questions about the protein-lipid interactions in the fenestration. A lipid has been observed in this location in both OSCA1.2 and OSCA3.1 structures. Mutation of the two OSCA1.2 lysines to isoleucines results in channels that are resistant to poke which leads to the conclusion that the interactions between the fenestration lysines and lipids are important for the poke response.

      Here, there are several questions that arise but are not answered:

      It is not shown what happens when OSCA3.1 isoleucines are mutated to lysines - do these mutants result in poke-able channels? Is the OSCA3.1 mechanosensing altered?

      We performed a preliminary test on OSCA3.1 I423K/I525K double mutant (n = 3). However, we did not see an increase in poke sensitivity. We attributed this to other unexplored differences in OSCA3.1 having an effect in channel mechanosensitivity.

      It is implied that the poke response is predicated on the lysine-lipid interaction. However, lipid densities are present in both OSCA1.2 and OSCA3.1 structures, indicating that both fenestrations interact with lipids. How can we be certain that the mutation of lysine to isoleucine does not disrupt an inter-protein interaction rather than a protein-lipid one? For example, the K435I mutation might disrupt interactions with D523 or the backbone of G527?

      The reviewer brings up a good point. We believe the phenotype seen is due to a different strength in the interaction between lipids and proteins, however, disrupted interaction with other residues is a valid alternative explanation. We agree that the suggested experiments will further clarify the results, but we are unable to perform such experiments due to the authors having moved on from the respective labs.

      Similarly, the effects of single lysine-to-isoleucine (K435I or K536I) mutations are not explored.

      The observed effect might be caused by only one of these substitutions.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We agree that the suggested experiments will further improve the quality of the results, but we are unable to perform such experiments due to the authors having moved on from the respective labs.

      I also wanted to take this opportunity to ask a couple of philosophical (?) questions about using a mammalian system to study ion channels that have evolved to function in plants. Your study highlights the intimate relationship between the lipid bilayer and protein function/mechanosensitivity. Plant cells contain high levels of sterols and cerebrosides that would significantly affect both cell stiffness and the specific interactions that can be formed between the protein and the lipid bilayer. I wonder if the properties of the lipid bilayer might shift the thresholds for poke and/or stretch stimuli and if structural elements that do not appear to have a major role in mechanosensation in a mammalian cell (e.g., BLD) might be very influential in a lipid environment that more closely resembles that of a plant?

      Conversely, is it possible that OSCA channels are not poke-sensitive in plant cells? These questions are beyond the scope of your study, but they might be a nice addition to your discussion.

      The reviewer poses a great question. Electrophysiological approaches for studying plant mechanosensitive channels suffer the limitation of not being able to fully reconstitute the environment of a plant cell. To be able to patch the cell, the cell wall needs to be disposed of, which eliminates the tension generated from this structure onto the membrane. In that sense, performing these assays in plant cells or another system would not give us a fully accurate picture of the physiological thresholds of these channels. Given this limitation, we performed our study with mammalian cells given our expertise with them. Like the reviewer, we are also intrigued by the effect of different membrane compositions on the behavior of OSCA channels and how these channels will behave under physiological conditions, but we agree with the reviewer that these questions are out of the scope of our work. To address this point, in line #294 we have added: “It is also important to note that the membrane of a plant cell contains a different lipid composition than that of HEK293 cells used in our assays, and thus these lipids, or the plant cell wall, may alter how these channels respond to physiological stimuli.”

      Line 313 For structural studies, human codon-optimized OSCA3.1. Could you please clarify what this means?

      We have changed the phrase to “For structural studies, the OSCA3.1 (UniProt ID: Q9C8G5) coding sequence was synthesized using optimized codons for expression in human cells and subsequently cloned into the pcDNA3.1 vector” in line #327 to clarify this sentence.

      As a final comment, in the methods you use references to previously published work. I would strongly encourage you to replace these with experimental details.

      We understand the reviewer’s argument. However, this article falls under eLIFE’s Research Advances and will be linked to the original published work to which we reference the method. As suggested in the guidelines for this type of article, we only described the methods that were different from the original paper.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) In line 85, provide C-alpha r.m.s.d. values for the structural alignment among OSCA3.1, OSCA1.1, and OSCA1.2 protomers.

      As requested, we have added the C-alpha RMSD in line #86.

      (2) In line 90, should the figure reference to Fig. 1d be Fig. 1e?

      We thank the reviewer for catching this error. We have corrected it in the manuscript.

      (3) In lines 89-94, what putative lipid is it resolved in the OSCA3.1 pore? Can the authors assign the lipid identity? Is this the same or different from the lipids resolved in OSCA1.2, OSCA1.1, and TMEM63?

      In the model, we have built the lipid as palmitic acid to represent a lipid tail, but the resolution in this area makes it difficult to ascertain the identity of said lipid, hence we cannot compare to lipids in other orthologs.

      (4) In lines 115-121, the authors describe the presence of AHs and their functional roles in MscL and TMEM16. It will be more informative if the authors can add figures to show the structure of MscL and highlight the analogous AH. In addition, the current Supplementary Fig. 6 is not informative so it should be improved. It is not clear to the reviewer why that stretch of helix in TMEM16 is equivalent or analogous to the AH in OSCAs, either sequence alignment or a detailed structural alignment is helpful to address this point. Also, in lines 120-121, it says this helix in TMEM16 "does not present amphipathic properties", please show the sequence or amphipathicity of the helix.

      We thank the reviewer for the feedback on this figure. Supplementary Fig. 6 has been thoroughly modified to address the reviewer’s concerns. We now include a panel showing the structure of MscL and its amphipathic helix. We have modified the alignment of OSCA3.1 to a TMEM16 homolog to make clearer the homologous positioning of the helices in question and zoom in to show their sequences.

      (5) In discussion, lines 249-257, the authors referred to a recent study that suggested three evolutionarily coupled residue pairs located on BLD and TM6b. The authors speculate that the reason they did not observe a significant effect of channel response to poke/stretch stimuli in the BLD swapping between OSCA1.2 and 3.1 is due to the 2 of 3 salt bridges remaining for the residue pairs. To test the importance of these residue pairs and their coupling for channel gating, instead of swapping the entire BLD, can the authors systematically mutate the residue pairs, disrupt the salt-bridge interactions, and analyze the effect on channel response to mechanical force?

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We agree that the suggested experiments will further improve the quality of the results, but we are unable to perform such experiments due to the authors having moved on from the respective labs.

      (6) The reviewer suggests the authors tone down the elaboration of polymodal activation of OSCA by membrane poking and stretch.

      We believe the idea of polymodal activation is sufficiently toned down as we only postulate it as a possibility and following we give an alternative explanation based on methodological limitations: “Nonetheless, the discrepancy could be due to inherent methodological differences between these two assays, as whole-cell recordings during poking involve channels in inaccessible membranes (at the cell-substrate interface) and channel interactions with extracellular and intracellular components, while the stretch assay is limited to recording channels inside the patch.”

      (7) In lines 81-83, the authors described the BLD as showing increased flexibility, and the EM map at this region is less well resolved for registry assignment. In the method for cryo-EM image processing and Supplementary Fig. 1, the authors only carried out 3D refinement and classification at the full channel level. Have the authors attempted to do focus refinement or classification at the BLD domain in order to improve the local resolution or to sort out conformational heterogeneity? The reviewer suggests doing so because the BLD domain is a hot spot that the authors have proposed to play an important role in OSCA mechanosensation. Conformational changes identified in this region might provide insights into its role in the channel function.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We have performed focused classification on the BLD with and without surrounding regions and, in our hands, it did not improve the resolution or provide further insights.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Here are a few specific minor corrections that should be addressed

      (1) In lines 117-135, in the discussion of Figure 2, the data shows an apparent increase in the poking threshold to gate W75K/L80E. The substantial increase in the depth required to gate the channel suggests that these channels are less sensitive to poking. Would it be possible to compare the depth at which these two patches show activity and the depth at which the other 22 cells ruptured? Line 161 mentions that the rupture threshold of HEK cells is close to the gating of OSCA3.1 at 13.8 µm.

      The distance just before the cell ruptured in 22 cells with no response was 12.5 +/- 2.5 um. The distance at which the cells ruptured was 0.5 um more (13 +/- 2.5 n=22). We have added this last value in line #137.

      (2) Would it be possible in Figures 2 panels b and c, 3, and figure 4 to label the WT as WT OSCA1.2?

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. We agree this modification will improve the clarity of the figures and have changed the figures to follow the reviewer’s suggestion.

      (3) Can you provide a western blot of the mutations described in Figure 2? This would provide insight into the amount of protein at the cell surface and available to respond to poking, the stretch data shows that these channels are in the membrane but does not show if they are in the membrane in similar quantities.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We agree that the suggested experiments will further improve the quality of the results, but we are unable to perform such experiments due to the authors having moved on from the respective labs.

      (4) The functional differences between the two channels are projected to be tied to several distinct point mutations, however, the data could be strengthened by additional point mutations at all sites to show that the phenotypes are due to the mutations specifically not just any mutation in the region.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We agree that the suggested experiments will further improve the quality of the results, but we are unable to perform such experiments due to the authors having moved on from the respective labs.

    1. Note: This response was posted by the corresponding author to Review Commons. The content has not been altered except for formatting.

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      Reply to the reviewers

      Manuscript number: RC-2023-02270

      Corresponding author(s): Usha Vijayraghavan

      General Statements

      We thank all three Reviewers for their thorough assessment of our manuscript and their constructive feedback and comments.

      Point-by-point description of the revisions

      This section is mandatory. *Please insert a point-by-point reply describing the revisions that were already carried out and included in the transferred manuscript. *

      Reviewer #1

      We are encouraged by the very positive comments made on the significance of our study that it provides convincing insights on alternative modes of nuclear positioning and division which is an important question in cell biology. We also took all possible suggestions to improve the interpretation of our results, have also added some newer data to address the constructive points raised by the reviewer.

      Major comments:

      1. A) I am concerned about the lethal phenotype caused by slu7 deprivation. Slu7 deficiency causes defective nuclear positioning at the bud in late G2. This phenotype per se should not cause defective mitosis, so slu7 deficiency may also be interfering with other aspects of mitosis which might indeed impinge on cell viability.

      Response: Our data indeed show Slu7 knockdown has severe growth defect when grown on non-permissive media (YPD) where a two-fold difference in O.D. was seen by 12 hours (Supplementary figure 2.B).

      We agree with the reviewer that defective mitosis, arises from several aspects of cell cycle including those in mitosis. The data we present show G2 arrest, small-budded cells with unsegregated nuclei and large-budded cells with segregated nuclei, all which do not progress through cell cycle phases and contribute to the severe growth defect. Further, GO enrichment analysis of deregulated pathways on knockdown of Slu7 support the above findings as various cell cycle related pathways are abnormal in their expression levels. In this study, we have focused on an in depth analysis of the role of Slu7 in a particular window and uncover how it controls nuclear position for progress G2-M phase cell cycle progression. The likely targets and mechanisms by which Slu7 regulates other phases of the cell cycle which needs similar other deeper investigations in future. Our detailed analysis of nuclear movement in Slu7 knockdown cells grown in YPD for 12 hours showed no nuclear movement (Supplementary figure 3B) which is the terminal phenotype. To examine events that lead to nuclear mispositioning phenotype we investigated the dividing slu7kd cells grown in non-permissive media for only 6 hours; under these conditions Slu7 protein is still detected at lower amount (Supplementary figure 1D). From the studies of nuclear position, mitotic spindle position and dynein distribution in mother and daughter cell, we propose that in the dividing cells, the nucleus does not experience enough force to move inside the daughter bud during mitosis. Further, we delineate the role of Slu7 in the splicing of transcripts for PAC1 encoding a protein whose homolog in S. cerevisiae has a proven role in nuclear migration. In live imaging of slu7kd cells that show nuclear segregation at the start of live imaging, new bud was not formed till the end of 60 minutes, implying that are arrested after transition to mitosis. We could speculate a role for Slu7 through regulation of genes involved in mitotic exit or cytokinesis.

      1. B) Supp. Fig4 shows defective mitosis in TBZ, so TBZ may be exacerbating defective mitosis of slu7-deficient cells.

      __Response: __Studies with yeast and mammalian model systems have revealed that the mobility and repair of damaged DNA are compromised upon disruption of microtubules (Wu et al, 2008; Chung et al, 2015; Lottersberger et al, 2015; Lawrimore et al, 2017; Oshidari et al, 2018; Laflamme et al, 2019). These data point to reasons why the mutants in DNA damage checkpoint genes are sensitive to TBZ. In this context, we observed that CnSlu7 knockdown is also sensitive to MMS stress (shown below). In addition, recent work on human Slu7 in Hela cell lines has elucidated the its role in the maintenance of genome integrity by preventing the formation of R-loops (Jiménez et al, 2019). We suggest that TBZ may exacerbate the defective mitosis of Slu7 depleted cells, however, whether it is particular only to mitosis or to the other cellular processes where the microtubules are involved needs further investigation.

      Throughout the figures it can be observed uneven chromosome/nuclear segregation in cells deprived of slu7, however, these mitotic defects have not been mentioned or explored in depth. From Supp Figure 3C it can be inferred that CENP-A segregation is uneven. Is this correct? Is CENP-A-GFP segregation normal?

      __Response: __ It should be noted that in Cryptococcus, the kinetochore remains unclustered during the early phase of cell cycle, cluster to a single punctum at the end of G2 phase and then de-cluster at the end of mitosis. Since this is a highly dynamic process, its technically challenging to measure the intensity CENP-A in mother and daughter cell. In the fixed cell imaging or live imaging data, there are no appreciable differences in intensity of the GFP signal of the tagged proteins (H4 and CENPA). The uneven chromosome/nuclear segregation observed in certain panels images presented are due to technical issues in that particular stack while generating the montage. This has been re-examined and we infer that there are no major differences in the signals from GFP-H4 and GFP - CENPA through mitosis.

      Additionally, taking the cue from the reviewer’s comment, we examined the likelihood of improper chromosome segregation by evaluating if there are any appreciable cell populations that are aneuploid. We revisited our flow cytometry data, we found no significant difference in the population of aneuploid cells between the knockdown strain and wildtype strain grown in non-permissive condition for 12 hours. This data was assessed again in new experiments where we also analyzed by flow cytometry the ipl1 mutant where aneuploidy is reported (Varshney et al, 2019). It has been reported in Cryptococcus neoformans that aneuploid cells are resistance to anti-fungal drug fluconazole. Preliminary experiments showed that slu7kd cells were sensitive to fluconazole and in this assay were similar to wildtype cells. Hence, we speculate that chromosome segregation is normal in Slu7 depleted cells.

      If chromosome segregation is altered upon slu7 deprivation, this might also explain the drop in cell viability and slow growth rates of this condition.

      __Response: __ From live microscopy imaging and flow cytometry data, we believe that the chromosome segregation is normal in Slu7 depleted cells. Dilution spotting in permissive media after growth in non-permissive media revealed that slu7kd cells resumed growth without losing viability, indicating the arrest phenotype associated with the depletion of Slu7 is largely reversible and does not cause chromosome mis-segregation (figure is now added to manuscript as supplementary figure 2D). Prolonged arrest at various cell cycle phase might lead to cell death and hence drop in cell viability.

      The manuscript will improve if authors analyse chromosome segregation for example, by showing time-lapse images of chromosome dynamics during mitosis.

      __Response: __Chromosome dynamics during the mitotic phase is given below. We observe that the chromosome segregation is equal in both mother and daughter bud. The uneven chromosome/nuclear segregation observed in certain panels images presented in original manuscript were due to technical issues while generating the montage.

      The authors perform an RNA seq comparing wild-type cells with slu7 deficiency and detect changes in gene expression, however, they do not explore from this data the percentage of un-spliced introns genome-wide which might be very informative, even more than changes in gene expression, which many of them, might be an indirect consequence of Slu7 deficiency. Authors should re-analyze the RNA seq data looking for unprocessed mRNAs and provide information about the overall impact of slu7 in intron processing.

      __Response: __ A very detailed bioinformatic analysis of the impact on slu7 on global transcriptome and splice pattern, is an ongoing study in the laboratory. The findings are indeed giving good leads which are being validated by further experiments using mini-gene exon-intron constructs. These studies are extensive and form a future manuscript identifying and characterizing intronic features which predispose an intron towards Slu7 dependency. Therefore, it falls outside the scope for this study on the cell biological role of Slu7 on mitosis, specifically nuclear position to ensure faithful mitotic segregation.

      Minor comments:

      __ __1. "Previous studies of slu7 mutants in S. cerevisiae and the conditional knockdown of its S. pombe homolog". Consider replacing homolog with Ortholog.

      Response: The suggestion is well taken, and the word “homolog” has been replaced with word “ortholog”.

      1. A) Taking these results together, we conclude that the inability of the conditional mutant to grow in the non-permissive media is due to impaired progression through the G2-M phase of the cell cycle. Is the G2/M delay the cause of the slow growth phenotype of the Slu7 deficiency?

      Response: From the live microscopy, we note that even when the budding index for mitosis has been reached the nucleus in slu7kd cells is still in the mother cell and spends more time here rather than reaching the bud or bud neck. We present G2/M delay as ONE of the reasons for the slow growth of Slu7 depleted cells. Although we have showed that Slu7 depletion does not activate MAD2 dependent Spindle Assembly Checkpoint, we have not investigated the activation of other cell cycle checkpoints such as G2 DNA damage checkpoint. These are potential new leads as we infer from our RNA seq datasets that CHK1, TEL1, BDR1 and RAD51 show increased expression in Slu7 knockdown condition when compared to wildtype. It is therefore reasonable to conclude that Slu7 might play a role at various cell cycle phases through direct or indirect effect on genes involved in these phases. Delayed positioning of the nucleus during G2/M is one of the major effects that is investigated in depth in this study.

      1. B) If so, growth defects of slu7 deficiency could be suppressed by ectopic expression of G2/M activators.

      Response: We have not tested this possibility, but we predict that expression of G2/M activators would at best offer only partial rescue the growth defect of Slu7 depleted cells since multiple pathways are adversely affected in cells depleted of Slu7.

      In this line of investigation, we have tested the consequences of PAC1 overexpression, as PAC1 expression levels and splicing are affected by loss of Slu7. We report a partial rescue of nuclear position defect during mitosis, yet these cells were arrested at cytokinesis. Further, the unavailability of an array of suitable auxotrophic (or other) markers in this model system makes it technically challenging to do rescue experiments by overexpression of multiple candidate downstream genes.

      Supp Figure 3C, remove the drawing on the right. Adjust times relative to panels.

      Response: The drawing has been removed and the time points have been adjusted.

      1. Tracking the nucleus in wild-type cells with a small bud showed that the nucleus moved into the daughter bud, divided into two, and one-half migrated to the mother bud (Supplementary Figure 3B, top row).

      Please replace the sentence: "one-half" with "one of the daughter nuclei". Additionally, as this nuclear positioning occurring during late mitosis is due to spindle elongation, I would not use the term migrated but "positioned" or "moved". Nuclear movement into the bud, which is referred to as "moved", can indeed be named "migrated".

      Response: The word “migrated” in the above sentence has been replaced with the word “moved”.

      1. Indicates in Figure 2B the marker used (GFP-H4), as in Fig Supp 3B.

      Response: The marker has been indicated in the figure.

      1. Nuclear division initiates in the bud, and one of the divided nuclei with segregated chromosomes migrates back to the mother cell (Figure 2B, top panel, wildtype, quantified in Figure 2C grey bar).

      As mentioned before, I would not name this, nuclear migration as it is the result of spindle elongation, and it can be confusing or misleading for non-expert readers.

      Response: The word “migrate” in the above sentence has been replaced with the word “move”.

      1. These two conclusions should be revised and described in temporal/sequential order.
      2. Thus, we identify that the depletion of CnSlu7 severely affects the temporal and spatial sequence of events during mitosis, particularly nuclear migration and division.
      3. Together, these results confirmed that without affecting the kinetochore clustering, depletion of Slu7 affects nuclear migration during the G2 to mitotic transition in Cryptococcus neoformans.

      Response: We thank the reviewer for bringing out the clarity in the concluding statements. These has now been revised to read as follows:

      “Together, these results confirm that without affecting the kinetochore clustering, depletion of Slu7 affects nuclear movement during the G2 to mitotic transition in Cryptococcus neoformans. Thus, we identify that the depletion of CnSlu7 severely affects the temporal and spatial sequence of events during mitosis, particularly nuclear migration, and division.”

      1. In slu7d cells, in cells with small buds, numerous cMTs were nucleated from the MTOCs, and as the cell cycle progressed, they organized to form the unipolar mitotic spindle (Figure 3A, slu7kd GFP-TUB1 panel, time point 55 mins).

      Please, revise whether the term unipolar mitotic spindle is correct here.

      Response: The word unipolar has been removed.

      1. I suggest including page and line numbers in the manuscript to facilitate revision.

      Response: We regret missing out this formatting guideline. The Page and line numbers have provided.

      Reviewer #2

      We are thankful by the very positive comments on the significance of our work, its novelty and findings being of broad interest to microbiology; splicing; cell cycle and cell division communities. We respond to all comments raised below.

      1. The authors test the Mad2-dependent spindle assembly checkpoint and show that it is not relevant for slu7-depletion. This is as expected if the defect is in nuclear positioning. They could test other checkpoint pathways that would monitor nuclear positioning in budding yeasts. Perhaps they have considered this: Bub2, Bfa1, Tem1, Lte1 mutants? I don't think this experiment is essential for publication, but it could strongly support their model.

      Response: We appreciate the comment on other checkpoints operating during mitosis. However, we have not done these experiments to examine role of components that arrest mitosis (Bub2, Tem1 etc.) in response to spindle or kinetochore damage. We hope the reviewer appreciates that this line of work would require the generation of bub2Δ strain and extensive characterization for their role in checkpoint in Cryptococcus before it can be brought into strains compromised for Slu7.

      __ Minor comments:__ 1. in Figure 3, Dyn1-GFP is imaged and in many of the cells in which Slu7 is depleted, nothing (or very little) can be seen. It is later argued that this is an indirect effect, due to defects in Pac1 and associated functions. Have the authors attempted a Dynein western blot (the 3xGFP tag should be quite sensitive)? It would be good to demonstrate that the Dynein motor complex hasn't simply fallen apart and Dynein been degraded in the slu7-depletion.

      Response: A study in S. cerevisiae has reported the dynein expression does not change in pac1Δ cells (Lee et al., 2003). Since the molecular weight of CnnDYN1 along with the tag is 630kDa, we did attempt the very challenging experiment of western blot to check for the expression levels this very large protein in wildtype and slu7kd cells. Based on the reviewer’s suggestion, we have attempted dot blot of protein lysates from wild type and from slu7kd cells probed with anti GFP antibody for estimating DYN-GFP levels. Untagged WT H99 strain was used as negative control. The same blot was stripped and re-probed for PSTAIRE which served as a loading control. This experiment revealed that dynein levels are same in both wildtype and slu7kd cells.

      in Figure 7: have any intronless genes been tested for rescue of the post-mitotic delay/arrest? This is not necessary for publication, but if any have been tested already, they could be listed here.

      Response: We have not tested intronless genes for their role in the rescue of post mitotic delay/arrest. From the RNA seq data, we observed that most of the genes involved in mitotic exit network (MEN) and cytokinesis were highly expressed in slu7kd cells as compared to the wildtype indicating and indirect role for Slu7 in their expression level. So, we had validated three candidates MOB2, CDC12 and DBF2 by qRT PCR (Supplementary 7.D) and found they were upregulated in slu7kd cells and hence speculate that deregulation of these transcript could contribute to the post mitotic arrest in slu7kd.

      In SFig2C legend make it clear that these cells are HU arrested at time zero. Are the cells in glucose or galactose during HU treatment.?

      Response: We regret the lack of clarity in the legend and the required details have been added. The cells were initially grown in non-permissive media for 2 hours to deplete Slu7 and then HU was added to the non-permissive media and the cell were allowed to grow for 4 hours.

      in SFig4, the TBZ sensitivity isn't very convincing as the slu7kd strain is struggling to grow at all on YPD.

      Response: We agree with the reviewer comment on the growth of slu7kd cells on media YPD containing TBZ. TBZ may exacerbate the defective mitosis of Slu7 depleted cells, however whether it pertains only to mitosis or any cellular processes where microtubules are involved requires further investigation.

      In SFig5 legend the volcano plot needs to be better explained. What are the dashed lines etc. ?

      Response: We regret missing these details on the volcano plot which has now been added to the legend.

      __Reviewer #3 __

      We appreciate the views that our work provides strong evidence to support out conclusions that Cryptococcus neoformans Slu7 controls mitotic progression by efficient splicing of cell cycle regulators and cytoskeletal elements. We have taken all comments of the reviewer into account to revise our manuscript with additional data, and by improving the presentation. The key additional data are summarized below.

      Major comments:

      1) The authors claimed that CnSlu7 is the most divergent among the fungal homologs and closer to its human counterpart (Fig. 1A, Supplementary Fig 1A). -Just based on the phylogenetic tree including limited members, as in Supplementary Fig. 1, it cannot be concluded that CnSlu7 is closer to its human counterpart since the basidiomycete yeast such as C. neoformans itself is more closely positions to humans compared to the ascomycete yeasts S. cerevisiae and Sch. pombe in phylogenetic tree analysis. It is strongly recommended to include other fungal species from the Basidiomycota, such as Ustilago maydis, in phylogenetic analysis in Supplementary Fig. 1. - Conservation analysis among diverse eukaryotes is more meaningful data that the conservation withing the fungi group, so that it is recommended that the data of Fig. 1 A would be replaced with the revised Supplementary Fig 1. -The analysis data on amino acid identities among Slu7 homologues should be presented to support the claim.

      Response: We agree with the reviewer that our data would be better served by an improved analysis of the phylogenetic relationship between various Slu7 homologs. We have therefore reconstructed the phylogenetic tree by including other fungal groups. This is presented here and also in the revised manuscript Supplementary Figure 1A. These data too, show that Cryptococcus (deneoformans and neoformans) Slu7 is the most diverged among its homologs from various fungal species with its closest homologs being other pathogens Puccinia graminis and Ustilago maydis.

      2) Despite that CnSlu7 is the main key subject, the comparative analysis of CnSlu7 to the previously reported Slu7 homologues, in the aspect of functional domain organization, is not provided in the present manuscript. - It was reported that Slu7 contains the four motifs that control its cellular localization and canonical function as a splicing factor, such as a nuclear location signal, a zinc knuckle motif, four stretches of leucine repeats and a lysine-rich domain. Notably, human Slu7 protein is 204 amino acids longer than S. cerevisiae homolog with only 24% identity in the zinc knuckle motif (Molecular Biology of the Cell Vol. 15, 3782-3795). Thus, it is strongly recommended to provide additional information on the conserved and diverged features of CnSlu7 compared to other Slu7 homologs as a part of revised Figure.

      Response: The multiple sequence alignment of Cryptococcus neoformans Slu7 with its fungal and higher eukaryote homologs such as human Slu7 and plant Slu7 proteins revealed that only the CCHC zinc finger motif is highly conserved. We do not detect conservation in the nuclear localization signal, stretch of leucine repeats and lysine rich domain except for leucine 3 stretch near the C terminal. This additional information is presented in revised Figure 1A.

      3) The manuscript clearly demonstrated that one of key targets of Slu7-mediated splicing is PAC1 in C. neoformans. Considering, Pac1 is also conserved from S. cerevisiae to human, it could be speculated that the defect of Slu7 can affect nuclear migration in other fungal species and human cells by inefficient splicing of PAC1, despite striking differences in their nuclear position during cell division. Please discuss this possibility or provide the qRT-PCR analysis data of PAC1 homologs in the available fungal Slu7 mutant strains.

      Response: Cell cycle arrest phenotypes of splicing factor mutants (studied largely in budding and fission yeast) results from inefficient pre-mRNA splicing of cell cycle-related genes. Slu7 is a well characterized second step splicing factor in S. cerevisiae where in vitro splicing assays with ACT1 minigene transcripts with a modified single intron showed ScSlu7 is dispensable for splicing when the branchpoint to 3'SS distance is less than seven nucleotides in the mini transcript (Brys and Schwer, 1996). In fission yeast we reported the effects of metabolic depletion of Slu7, which is an essential gene (Banerjee et al., 2013) and showed unexpectedly that in addition to BrP to 3'SS distance new intronic features contributors of dependency of fission yeast intron containing transcripts on Slu7 functions. The work also showed in multi-intronic transcripts its role is intron-specific and thus the candidate gene/ transcript is likely to be to dependent on Slu7 by virtue of the intronic features and not its biological function. In this study a splicing dependent role of CnSlu7 in cell cycle progression is investigated where based on a strong nuclear mis-positioning phenotype we narrowed on PAC1 transcripts as one of targets. We show PAC1, encoding a cytoskeletal factor, has introns dependent on CnSlu7 for efficient splicing and show partial rescue of nuclear position in strain complemented with expression of an intronless PAC1 gene. In this scenario, while it is likely that in other species where PAC1 exon-introns nucleotide sequences are similar to that in Cryptococcus a role for Slu7 may be predicted, for validation by other experimentalists.

      Interestingly, PAC1 in S. cerevisiae is an intronless gene and its homolog is not annotated in S. pombe. In human cell lines, knockdown of Slu7 by siRNA resulted in metaphase arrest by inefficient splicing of soronin – which is crucial in sister chromatid cohesion and correct spindle assembly, according to recent research in human cell lines (Jiménez et al., 2019).

      Hence the roles of splicing factor in cell cycle is through splicing of targets involved in cell cycle wherein the targets regulated by splicing factor may or may not be conserved in other species.

      Minor comments:

      General points 1) Provide information on the marker sizes in the data of qRT-PCR analysis presented in Figures 5 and 6, and Supplementary Fig 2A.

      Response: We regret the omission of this technical data and have corrected the same by providing the marker sizes in all the figures.

      2) Please unify the format of gene names. Some genes were written with superscript of "+", such as CLN1+ and PAC1+ in Fig. 4. What does "+" mean in the gene names?

      Response: We have taken the suggestion to carefully review the nomenclature of genes and their expressed transcripts as is typical for Cryptococcus neoformans. To depict the wildtype form of transcript we had used +. Thus CLN1+ was used to denote Cyclin 1 cellular transcript from expressed from its own locus without any modification of promoter or the intronic features.

      3) Supplementary Figure 1 C: Please correct "Slu7KD" 6 hrs YPD to "slu7kd" 6 hrs YPD.

      Response: This error has been corrected.

      4) Supplementary Figure 2A: What do "mRNA" and "No RT29X/", respectively, indicate?

      Response: The mRNA indicates the spliced form across any intron after intron is spliced out, so denotes exon-exon sequences in the mRNA. The reactions marked as “No RT 29 X” denote semi- quantitative PCR performed on DNase treated RNA sample, without reverse transcription to generate the cDNA. These reactions were done to confirm that there is no genomic DNA present in the RNA sample used for reverse transcription reaction of the cellular transcripts. Some of these details are now included in the Supp Fig 2A legend.

      5) Supplementary Figure 4C: Please provide brief explanation in the text on why the authors employed mad2Δ slu7kd cells.

      Response: In Page 8, line 6, we had provided the rationale for generating and studying mad2Δ slu7kd strain. This is recapitulated below:

      “To investigate whether Slu7 knockdown triggers the activation of spindle assembly checkpoint (SAC), we generated a strain with conditional slu7kd in cells with mad2Δ allele and the GFP-H4 nuclear marker.”

      6) Supplementary Figure 6D legend: Please correct the description of "slu7kd SH:Slu7 FL" from "expressing intronless PAC1" to "expressing full length of SLU7".

      Response: The error in the legend is regretted and this has been corrected.

      7) Supplementary Figure 7D: The authors confirmed that MOB2, CDC12, and DFB1 were expressed at higher levels in slu7kd when compared to wildtype. Please briefly explain in the text why the expression level of these genes in slu7kd was mentioned.

      Response: slu7kd cells expressing intronless Pac1 arrest post nuclear division. Revisiting our transcriptomic data, we found that genes involved in mitosis exit network and cytokinesis, such as DFB1, MOB2, CDC12, BUD4, and CHS2, were deregulated in slu7kd when compared to wildtype. We confirmed the same by performing qRT PCRs for three candidates, MOB2, DBF1 and CDC12 and that these transcript were expressed at high levels in knockdown when compared to wildtype.

      8) The species name should be written as abbreviation after the first mention. For example, please correct Cryptococcus neoformans to C. neoformans throughout manuscript.

      Response: The suggestion is well taken, and the required edits have been made throughout the text.

      9) Please unify the format of paper titles listed in References.

      Response: This formatting error is regretted and corrected to have all references in a single format.

      10) No page information for Hoffmann et al (2010) in References.

      Response: This omission is corrected.

      11) Update the information on the published journal of Chatterjee et al. (2021) in References.

      Response: This omission is regretted and is now corrected.

      12) Information on the authors, title, published journal and pages should be provided for the papers (Yadav and Sanyal, 2018; Sridhar et al., 2021) in Supplementary Table 1, which were not included in the main Reference list.

      Response: The references are now added to the main list.

      References used for addressing the reviewer’s comments:

      1. Chung DKC, Chan JNY, Strecker J, Zhang W, Ebrahimi-Ardebili S, Lu T, Abraham KJ, Durocher D, Mekhail K (2015) Perinuclear tethers license telomeric DSBs for a broad kinesin- and NPC-dependent DNA repair process. Nat Commun doi:10.1038/NCOMMS8742.
      2. Jiménez M, Urtasun R, Elizalde M, Azkona M, Latasa MU, Uriarte I, Arechederra M, Alignani D, Bárcena-Varela M, Alvarez-Sola G et al (2019) Splicing events in the control of genome integrity: Role of SLU7 and truncated SRSF3 proteins. Nucleic Acids Res 47: 3450–3466. doi:10.1093/nar/gkz014.
      3. Laflamme G, Sim S, Leary A, Pascariu M, Vogel J, D’Amours D (2019) Interphase Microtubules Safeguard Mitotic Progression by Suppressing an Aurora B-Dependent Arrest Induced by DNA Replication Stress. Cell Rep 26: 2875-2889.e3. doi:10.1016/J.CELREP.2019.02.051.
      4. Lawrimore J, Barry TM, Barry RM, York AC, Friedman B, Cook DM, Akialis K, Tyler J, Vasquez P, Yeh E et al (2017) Microtubule dynamics drive enhanced chromatin motion and mobilize telomeres in response to DNA damage. Mol Biol Cell 28: 1701–1711. doi:10.1091/MBC.E16-12-0846.
      5. Lee WL, Oberle JR, Cooper JA (2003) The role of the lissencephaly protein Pac1 during nuclear migration in budding yeast. J Cell Biol. doi:10.1083/jcb.200209022.
      6. Lottersberger F, Karssemeijer RA, Dimitrova N, De Lange T (2015) 53BP1 and the LINC Complex Promote Microtubule-Dependent DSB Mobility and DNA Repair. Cell 163: 880–893. doi:10.1016/J.CELL.2015.09.057.
      7. Oshidari R, Strecker J, Chung DKC, Abraham KJ, Chan JNY, Damaren CJ, Mekhail K (2018) Nuclear microtubule filaments mediate non-linear directional motion of chromatin and promote DNA repair. Nat Commun doi:10.1038/S41467-018-05009-7.
      8. Varshney N, Som S, Chatterjee S, Sridhar S, Bhattacharyya D, Paul R, Sanyal K (2019) Spatio-temporal regulation of nuclear division by Aurora B kinase Ipl1 in Cryptococcus neoformans. PLoS Genet doi:10.1371/journal.pgen.1007959.
      9. Wu G, Zhou L, Khidr L, Guo XE, Kim W, Lee YM, Krasieva T, Chen PL (2008) A novel role of the chromokinesin Kif4A in DNA damage response. Cell Cycle 7: 2013–2020. doi:10.4161/CC.7.13.6130.
    1. Author Response

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Visual Perceptual Learning (VPL) results in varying degrees of generalization to tasks or stimuli not seen during training. The question of which stimulus or task features predict whether learning will transfer to a different perceptual task has long been central in the field of perceptual learning, with numerous theories proposed to address it. This paper introduces a novel framework for understanding generalization in VPL, focusing on the form invariants of the training stimulus. Contrary to a previously proposed theory that task difficulty predicts the extent of generalization - suggesting that more challenging tasks yield less transfer to other tasks or stimuli - this paper offers an alternative perspective. It introduces the concept of task invariants and investigates how the structural stability of these invariants affects VPL and its generalization. The study finds that tasks with high-stability invariants are learned more quickly. However, training with low-stability invariants leads to greater generalization to tasks with higher stability, but not the reverse. This indicates that, at least based on the experiments in this paper, an easier training task results in less generalization, challenging previous theories that focus on task difficulty (or precision). Instead, this paper posits that the structural stability of stimulus or task invariants is the key factor in explaining VPL generalization across different tasks

      Strengths:

      • The paper effectively demonstrates that the difficulty of a perceptual task does not necessarily correlate with its learning generalization to other tasks, challenging previous theories in the field of Visual Perceptual Learning. Instead, it proposes a significant and novel approach, suggesting that the form invariants of training stimuli are more reliable predictors of learning generalization. The results consistently bolster this theory, underlining the role of invariant stability in forecasting the extent of VPL generalization across different tasks.

      • The experiments conducted in the study are thoughtfully designed and provide robust support for the central claim about the significance of form invariants in VPL generalization.

      Weaknesses:

      • The paper assumes a considerable familiarity with the Erlangen program and the definitions of invariants and their structural stability, potentially alienating readers who are not versed in these concepts. This assumption may hinder the understanding of the paper's theoretical rationale and the selection of stimuli for the experiments, particularly for those unfamiliar with the Erlangen program's application in psychophysics. A brief introduction to these key concepts would greatly enhance the paper's accessibility. The justification for the chosen stimuli and the design of the three experiments could be more thoroughly articulated.

      Response: We appreciate the reviewer's feedback regarding the accessibility of our paper. In response to this feedback, we plan to enhance the introduction section of our paper to provide a concise yet comprehensive overview of the key concepts of Erlangen program. Additionally, we will provide a more thorough justification for the selection of stimuli and the experimental design in our revised version, ensuring that readers understand the rationale behind our choices.

      • The paper does not clearly articulate how its proposed theory can be integrated with existing observations in the field of VPL. While it acknowledges previous theories on VPL generalization, the paper falls short in explaining how its framework might apply to classical tasks and stimuli that have been widely used in the VPL literature, such as orientation or motion discrimination with Gabors, vernier acuity, etc. It also does not provide insight into the application of this framework to more naturalistic tasks or stimuli. If the stability of invariants is a key factor in predicting a task's generalization potential, the paper should elucidate how to define the stability of new stimuli or tasks. This issue ties back to the earlier mentioned weakness: namely, the absence of a clear explanation of the Erlangen program and its relevant concepts.

      Response: Thanks for highlighting the need for better integration of our proposed theory with existing observations in the field of VPL. Unfortunately, the theoretical framework proposed in our study is based on the Klein’s Erlangen program and is only applicable to geometric shape stimuli. For VPL studies using stimuli and paradigms that are completely unrelated to geometric transformations (such as motion discrimination with Gabors or random dots, vernier acuity, spatial frequency discrimination, contrast detection or discrimination, etc.), our proposed theory does not apply. Some stimuli employed by VPL studies can be classified into certain geometric invariants. For instance, orientation discrimination with Gabors (Dosher & Lu, 2005) and texture discrimination task (F. Wang et al., 2016) both belong to tasks involving Euclidean invariants, and circle versus square discrimination (Kraft et al., 2010) belongs to tasks involving affine invariance. However, these studies do not simultaneously involve multiple geometric invariants of varying levels stability, and thus cannot be directly compared with our research. It is worth noting that while the Klein’s hierarchy of geometries, which our study focuses on, is rarely mentioned in the field of VPL, it does have connections with concepts such as 'global/local', 'coarse/fine', 'easy/difficulty', 'complex/simple': more stable invariants are closer to 'global', 'coarse', 'easy', 'complex', while less stable invariants are closer to 'local', 'fine', 'difficulty', 'simple'. Importantly, several VPL studies have found ‘fine-to-coarse’ or ‘local-to-global’ asymmetric transfer (Chang et al., 2014; N. Chen et al., 2016; Dosher & Lu, 2005), which seems consistent with the results of our study.

      In the introduction section of our revised version and subsequent full author response, we will provide a clear explanation of the Erlangen program and elucidate how to define the stability of new stimuli or tasks. In the discussion section of our revised version, we will compare our results to other studies concerned with the generalization of perceptual learning and speculate on how our proposed theory fit with existing observations in the field of VPL.

      • The paper does not convincingly establish the necessity of its introduced concept of invariant stability for interpreting the presented data. For instance, consider an alternative explanation: performing in the collinearity task requires orientation invariance. Therefore, it's straightforward that learning the collinearity task doesn't aid in performing the other two tasks (parallelism and orientation), which do require orientation estimation. Interestingly, orientation invariance is more characteristic of higher visual areas, which, consistent with the Reverse Hierarchy Theory, are engaged more rapidly in learning compared to lower visual areas. This simpler explanation, grounded in established concepts of VPL and the tuning properties of neurons across the visual cortex, can account for the observed effects, at least in one scenario. This approach has previously been used/proposed to explain VPL generalization, as seen in (Chowdhury and DeAngelis, Neuron, 2008), (Liu and Pack, Neuron, 2017), and (Bakhtiari et al., JoV, 2020). The question then is: how does the concept of invariant stability provide additional insights beyond this simpler explanation?

      Response: We appreciate the alternative explanation proposed by the reviewer and agree that it presents a valid perspective grounded in established concepts of VPL and neural tuning properties. However, performing in the collinearity and parallelism tasks both require orientation invariance. While utilizing the orientation invariance, as proposed by the reviewer, can explain the lack of transfer from collinearity or parallelism to orientation task, it cannot explain why collinearity does not transfer to parallelism.

      As stated in the response to the previous review, in the revised discussion section, we will compare our study with other studies (including the three papers mentioned by the reviewer), aiming to clarify the necessity of the concept of invariant stability for interpreting the observed data and understanding the mechanisms underlying VPL generalization.

      • While the paper discusses the transfer of learning between tasks with varying levels of invariant stability, the mechanism of this transfer within each invariant condition remains unclear. A more detailed analysis would involve keeping the invariant's stability constant while altering a feature of the stimulus in the test condition. For example, in the VPL literature, one of the primary methods for testing generalization is examining transfer to a new stimulus location. The paper does not address the expected outcomes of location transfer in relation to the stability of the invariant. Moreover, in the affine and Euclidean conditions one could maintain consistent orientations for the distractors and targets during training, then switch them in the testing phase to assess transfer within the same level of invariant structural stability.

      Response: Thanks for raising the issue regarding the mechanism of transfer within each invariant conditions. We plan to design an additional experiment that is similar in paradigm to Experiment 2, aiming to examine how VPL generalizes to a new test location within a single invariant stability level.

      • In the section detailing the modeling experiment using deep neural networks (DNN), the takeaway was unclear. While it was interesting to observe that the DNN exhibited a generalization pattern across conditions similar to that seen in the human experiments, the claim made in the abstract and introduction that the model provides a 'mechanistic' explanation for the phenomenon seems overstated. The pattern of weight changes across layers, as depicted in Figure 7, does not conclusively explain the observed variability in generalizations. Furthermore, the substantial weight change observed in the first two layers during the orientation discrimination task is somewhat counterintuitive. Given that neurons in early layers typically have smaller receptive fields and narrower tunings, one would expect this to result in less transfer, not more.

      Response: We appreciate the reviewer's feedback regarding the clarity of our DNN modeling experiment. We acknowledge that while DNNs have been demonstrated to serve as models for visual systems as well as VPL, the claim that the model provides a ‘mechanistic’ explanation for the phenomenon still overstated. In our revised version,

      We will attempt a more detailed analysis of the DNN model while providing a more explicit explanation of the findings from the DNN modeling experiment, emphasizing its implications for understanding the observed variability in generalizations.

      Additionally, the substantial weight change observed in the first two layers during the orientation discrimination task is not contradictory to the theoretical framework we proposed, instead, it aligns with our speculation regarding the neural mechanisms of VPL for geometric invariants. Specifically, it suggests that invariants with lower stability rely more on the plasticity of lower-level brain areas, thus exhibiting poorer generalization performance to new locations or stimulus features within each invariant conditions. However, it does not imply that their learning effects cannot transfer to invariants with higher stability.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      The strengths of this paper are clear: The authors are asking a novel question about geometric representation that would be relevant to a broad audience. Their question has a clear grounding in pre-existing mathematical concepts, that, to my knowledge, have been only minimally explored in cognitive science. Moreover, the data themselves are quite striking, such that my only concern would be that the data seem almost too clean. It is hard to know what to make of that, however. From one perspective, this is even more reason the results should be publicly available. Yet I am of the (perhaps unorthodox) opinion that reviewers should voice these gut reactions, even if it does not influence the evaluation otherwise. Below I offer some more concrete comments:

      (1) The justification for the designs is not well explained. The authors simply tell the audience in a single sentence that they test projective, affine, and Euclidean geometry. But despite my familiarity with these terms -- familiarity that many readers may not have -- I still had to pause for a very long time to make sense of how these considerations led to the stimuli that were created. I think the authors must, for a point that is so central to the paper, thoroughly explain exactly why the stimuli were designed the way that they were and how these designs map onto the theoretical constructs being tested.

      (2) I wondered if the design in Experiment 1 was flawed in one small but critical way. The goal of the parallelism stimuli, I gathered, was to have a set of items that is not parallel to the other set of items. But in doing that, isn't the manipulation effectively the same as the manipulation in the orientation stimuli? Both functionally involve just rotating one set by a fixed amount. (Note: This does not seem to be a problem in Experiment 2, in which the conditions are more clearly delineated.)

      (3) I wondered if the results would hold up for stimuli that were more diverse. It seems that a determined experimenter could easily design an "adversarial" version of these experiments for which the results would be unlikely to replicate. For instance: In the orientation group in Experiment 1, what if the odd-one-out was rotated 90 degrees instead of 180 degrees? Intuitively, it seems like this trial type would now be much easier, and the pattern observed here would not hold up. If it did hold up, that would provide stronger support for the authors' theory.

      It is not enough, in my opinion, to simply have some confirmatory evidence of this theory. One would have to have thoroughly tested many possible ways that theory could fail. I'm unsure that enough has been done here to convince me that these ideas would hold up across a more diverse set of stimuli.

      Response: (1) We appreciate the reviewer’s feedback regarding the justification for our experimental designs. We recognize the importance of thoroughly explaining how our stimuli were designed and how these designs correspond to the theoretical constructs being tested. In our revised version, we will enhance the introduction of Erlangen program and provide a more detailed explanation of the rationale behind our stimulus designs, aiming to enhance the clarity and transparency of our experimental approach for readers who may not be familiar with these concepts.

      (2) We appreciate the reviewer’s insight into the design of Experiment 1 and the concern regarding the potential similarity between the parallelism and orientation stimuli manipulations.

      The parallelism and orientation stimuli in Experiment 1 were first used by Olson & Attneave (1970) to support line-based models of shape coding and then adapted to measure the relative salience of different geometric properties (Chen, 1986). In the parallelism stimuli, the odd quadrant differs from the rest in line slope, while in the orientation stimuli, in contrast, the odd quadrant contains exactly the same line segments as the rest but differs in direction pointed by the angles. The result, that the odd quadrant was detected much faster in the parallelism stimuli than in the orientation stimuli, can serve as evidence for line-based models of shape coding. However, according to Chen (1986, 2005), the idea of invariants over transformations suggests a new analysis of the data: in the parallelism stimuli, the fact that line segments share the same slope essentially implies that they are parallel, and the discrimination may be actually based on parallelism. Thus, the faster discrimination of the parallelism stimuli than that of the orientation stimuli may be explained in terms of relative superiority of parallelism over orientation of angles—a Euclidean property.

      The group of stimuli in Experiment 1 has been employed by several studies to investigate scientific questions related to the Klein’s hierarchy of geometries (L. Chen, 2005; Meng et al., 2019; B. Wang et al., n.d.). Due to historical inheritance, we adopted this set of stimuli and corresponding paradigm, despite their imperfect design.

      (3) Thanks for raising the important issue of stimulus diversity and the potential for "adversarial" versions of the experiments to challenge our findings. We acknowledge the validity of your concern and recognize the need to demonstrate the robustness of our results across a range of stimuli. We plan to design additional experiments to investigate the potential implications of varying stimulus characteristics, such as different rotation angles proposed by the reviewer, on the observed patterns of performance.

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:<br /> The authors employed a combinatorial CRISPR-Cas9 knockout screen to uncover synthetically lethal kinase genes that could play a role in drug resistance to kinase inhibitors in triple-negative breast cancer. The study successfully reveals FYN as a mediator of resistance to depletion and inhibition of various tyrosine kinases, notably EGFR, IGF-1R, and ABL, in triple-negative breast cancer cells and xenografts. Mechanistically, they demonstrate that KDM4 contributes to the upregulation of FYN and thereby is an important mediator of drug resistance. All together, these findings suggest FYN and KDM4A as potential targets for combination therapy with kinase inhibitors in triple-negative breast cancer. Moreover, the study may also have important implications for other cancer types and other inhibitors, as the authors suggest that FYN could be a general feature of drug-tolerant persister cells.

      Strengths:<br /> (1) The authors used a large combination matrix of druggable tyrosine kinase gene knockouts, enabling studying of co-dependence of kinase genes. This approach mitigates off-target effects typically associated with kinase inhibitors, enhancing the precision of the findings.

      (2) The authors demonstrate the importance of FYN in drug resistance in multiple ways. They demonstrate synergistic interactions using both knockouts and inhibitors, while also revealing its transcriptional upregulation upon treatment, strengthening the conclusion that FYN plays a role in the resistance.

      (3) The study extends its impact by demonstrating the potent in vivo efficacy of certain combination treatments, underscoring the clinical relevance of the identified strategies.

      Weaknesses:<br /> (1) The methods and figure legends are incomplete, posing a barrier to the reproducibility of the study and hindering a comprehensive understanding and accurate interpretation of the results.

      (2) The authors make use of a large quantity of public data (Fig. 2D/E, Fig. 3F/L/M, Fig 4C, Fig 5B/H/I), whereas it would have strengthened the paper to perform these experiments themselves. While some of this data would be hard to generate (e.g. patient data) other data could have been generated by the authors. The disadvantage of the use of public data is that it merely comprises associations, but does not have causal/functional results (e.g. FYN inhibition in the different cancer models with various drugs). Moreover, by cherry-picking the data from public sources, the context of these sources is not clear to the reader, and thus harder to interpret correctly. For example, it is not directly clear whether the upregulation of FYN in these models is a very selective event or whether it is part of a very large epigenetic re-programming, where other genes may be more critical. While some of the used data are from well-known curated databases, others are from individual papers that the reader should assess critically in order to interpret the data. Sometimes the public data was redundant, as the authors did do the experiments themselves (e.g. lung cancer drug-tolerant persisters), in this case, the public data could also be left out.

      More importantly, the original sources are not properly cited. While the GEO accession numbers are shown in a supplementary table, the articles corresponding to this data should be cited in the main text, and preferably also in the figure legend, to clarify that this data is from public sources, which is now not always the case (e.g. line 224-226). If these original papers do already mention the upregulation of FYN, and the findings from the authors are thus not original, these findings should be discussed in the Discussion section instead of shown in the Results.

      (3) The claim in the abstract (and discussion) that the study "highlights FYN as broadly applicable mediator of therapy resistance and persistence", is not sufficiently supported by the results. The current study only shows functional evidence for this for an EGFR, IGF1R, and Abl inhibitor in TNBC cells. Further, it demonstrates (to a limited extent) the role of FYN in gefitinib and osimertinib resistance (also EGFR inhibitors) in lung cancer cells. Thus, the causal evidence provided is only limited to a select subset of tyrosine kinase inhibitors in two cancer types. While the authors show associations between FYN and drug resistance in other cancer types and after other treatments, these associations are not solid evidence for a causal connection as mentioned in this statement. Epigenetic reprogramming causing drug resistance can be accompanied by altered gene expression of many genes, and the upregulation of FYN may be a consequence, but not a cause of the drug resistance. Therefore, the authors should be more cautious in making such statements about the broad applicability of FYN as a mediator of therapy resistance.

      (4) The rationale for picking and validating FYN as the main candidate gene over other genes such as FGFR2, FRK2, and TEK is not clear.<br /> a. While gene pairs containing FGFR2 knockouts seemed to be equally effective as FYN gene pairs in the primary screening, these could not be validated in the validation experiment. It is unclear whether multiple individual or a pool of gRNAs were used for this validation, or whether only 1 gRNA sequence was picked per gene for this validation. If only 1 gRNA per gene was used, this likely would have resulted in variable knockout efficiencies. Moreover, the T7 endonuclease assay may not have been the best method to check knockout efficiency, as it only implies endonuclease activity around a gene (but not to the extent of indels that can cause frameshifts, such as by TIDE analysis, or extent of reduction in protein levels by western blot).<br /> b. Moreover, FRK2 and TEK, also demonstrated many synergistic gene pairs in the primary screen. However, many of these gene pairs were not included in the validation screening. The selection criteria of candidate gene pairs for validation screening is not clear. Still, TEK-ABL2 was also validated as a strong hit in the validation screen. The authors should better explain the choice of FYN over other hits, and/or mention that TEK and FRK2 may also be important targets for combination treatment that can be further elucidated.

      (5) On several occasions, the right controls (individual treatments, performed in parallel) are not included in the figures. The authors should include the responses to each of the single treatments, and/or better explain the normalization that might explain why the controls are not shown.<br /> a. Figure 2G: The effect of PP2 treatment, without combined treatment, is not shown.<br /> b. Figure 2H/3G: The effect of the knockouts on growth alone, compared to sgGFP, is not demonstrated. It is unclear whether the viability of knockouts is normalized to sgGFP, or to each untreated knockout.<br /> c. Figure 2L: The effect of SB203580 as a single treatment is not shown.

      (6) The study examines the effects at a single, relatively late time point after treatment with inhibitors, without confirming the sequential impact on KDM4A and FYN. The proposed sequence of transcriptional upregulation of KDM4A followed by epigenetic modifications leading to FYN upregulation would be more compellingly supported by demonstrating a consecutive, rather than simultaneous, occurrence of these events. Furthermore, the protein level assessment at 48 hours (for RNA levels not clearly described), raises concerns about potential confounding factors. At this late time point, reduced cell viability due to the combination treatment could contribute to observed effects such as altered FYN expression and P38 MAPK phosphorylation, making it challenging to attribute these changes solely to the specific and selective reduction of FYN expression by KDM4A.

      (7) The cut-off for considering interactions "synergistic" is quite low. The manual of the used "SynergyFinder" tool itself recommends values above >10 as synergistic and between -10 and 10 as additive (https://synergyfinder.fimm.fi/synergy/synfin_docs/). Here, values between 5-10 are also considered synergistic. Caution should be taken when discussing those results. Showing the actual dose response (including responses to each single treatment) may be required to enable the reader to critically assess the synergy, along with its standard deviation.

      (8) As the effect size on Western blots is quite limited and sometimes accompanied by differences in loading control, these data should be further supported by quantifications of signal intensities of at least 3 biological replicates (e.g. especially Figure 3A/5A). The figure legends should also state how many independent experiments the blots are representative of.

      (9) While the article provides mechanistic insights into the likely upregulation of FYN by KDM4A, this constitutes only a fragment of the broader mechanism underlying drug resistance associated with FYN. The study falls short in investigating the causes of KDM4A upregulation and fails to explore the downstream effects (except for p38 MAPK phosphorylation, which may not be complete) of FYN upregulation that could potentially drive sustained cell proliferation and survival. These omissions limit the comprehensive understanding of the complete molecular pathway, and the discussion section does not address potential implications or pathways beyond the identified KDM4A-FYN axis. A more thorough exploration of these aspects would enhance the study's contribution to the field.

      (10) FYN has been implied in drug resistance previously, and other mechanisms of its upregulation, as well as downstream consequences, have been described previously. These were not evaluated in this paper, and are also not discussed in the discussion section. Moreover, the authors did not investigate whether any of the many other mechanisms of drug resistance to EGFR, IGF1R, and Abl inhibitors that have been described, could be related to FYN as well. A more comprehensive examination of existing literature and consideration of alternative or parallel mechanisms in the discussion would enhance the paper's contribution to understanding FYN's involvement in drug resistance.

    1. Author Response

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      First, we would like to thank you and all the reviewers for acknowledging the meaningful contribution of our manuscript to the field. Your useful comments helped us improve the manuscript's quality. We understood the key issues of the manuscript were the quantification of inference accuracy and applicability to methylome data. We here therefore present a revised version of the manuscript addressing all major comments.

      For each demographic inference we have added the root mean square error as demanded by the reviewers. These results confirm the previous interpretation of the graphs especially in recent times. We also added TMRCA inference analysis as requested by one reviewer as a proof of principle that integrating multiple markers can improve ARG inference.

      The discussion was rewritten to further discuss the challenges of application to empirical methylation data. We clarify that in the case epimutations are well understood and modelled, they can be integrated into a SMC framework to improve the approaches accuracy. When epimutations are not well understood, our approach can help understand the epimutations process through generations at the evolutionary time scale along the genome. Hence, in both cases our approach can be used to unveil marker evolution processes through generations, and/or deepen our understanding of the population past history. We hope our discussion underlies better how our approach is designed and can be used.

      eLife assessment

      This important study advances existing approaches for demographic inference by incorporating rapidly mutating markers such as switches in methylation state. The authors provide a solid comparison of their approach to existing methods, although the work would benefit from some additional consideration of the challenges in the empirical use of methylation data. The work will be of broad interest to population geneticists, both in terms of the novel approach and the statistical inference proposed.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      The authors developed an extension to the pairwise sequentially Markov coalecent model that allows to simultaneously analyse multiple types of polymorphism data. In this paper, they focus on SNPs and DNA methylation data. Since methylation markers mutate at a much faster rate than SNPs, this potentially gives the method better power to infer size history in the recent past. Additionally, they explored a model where there are both local and regional epimutational processes.

      Integrating additional types of heritable markers into SMC is a nice idea which I like in principle. However, a major caveat to this approach seems to be a strong dependence on knowing the epimutation rate. In Fig. 6 it is seen that, when the epimutation rate is known, inferences do indeed look better; but this is not necessarily true when the rate is not known. A roughly similar pattern emerges in Supp. Figs. 4-7; in general, results when the rates have to be estimated don't seem that much better than when focusing on SNPs alone. This carries over to the real data analysis too: the interpretation in Fig. 7 appears to hinge on whether the rates are known or estimated, and the estimated rates differ by a large amount from earlier published ones.

      Overall, this is an interesting research direction, and I think the method may hold more promise as we get more and better epigenetic data, and in particular better knowledge of the epigenetic mutational process. At the same time, I would be careful about placing too much emphasis on new findings that emerge solely by switching to SNP+SMP analysis.

      Answer: We thank the reviewer 1 for his positive comments and acknowledging the future promises of our method as better and more reliable data will be available in different species. We appreciate the reviewer noticing the complete set of work undertaken here to integrate local and regional effects of methylation into a model containing as much knowledge of the epigenetics mutational processes as possible. Note that in Figure 2 of the manuscript we observed a gain of accuracy even when the rates are unknown. Our results thus suggests that the accuracy gain of additional marker with unknown rates is also possible, although it is most likely be scenario and rate dependent.

      At last, as noticed and highlighted by the very recent work of the Johannes lab (Yao et al. Science 2023) using phylogenetic methods, knowing the epimutation rate is essential at short time scale to avoid confounding effects of homoplasy. In our estimation of the coalescent trees, the same applies, though our model considers finite site markers. We now provide additional evidence for the potential gain of power to infer the TMRCA (Supplementary Table S7) when knowing or not the epimutation rates and revised the discussion to clarify the potential shortcomings/caveats for the analysis of real data.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      A limitation in using SNPs to understand recent histories of genomes is their low mutation frequency. Tellier et al. explore the possibility of adding hypermutable markers to SNP based methods for better resolution over short time frames. In particular, they hypothesize that epimutations (CG methylation and demethylation) could provide a useful marker for this purpose. Individual CGs in Arabidopsis tends to be either close to 100% methylated or close to 0%, and are inherited stably enough across generations that they can be treated as genetic markers. Small regions containing multiple CGs can also be treated as genetic markers based on their cumulative methylation level. In this manuscript, Tellier et al develop computational methods to use CG methylation as a hypermutable genetic marker and test them on theoretical and real data sets. They do this both for individual CGs and small regions. My review is limited to the simple question of whether using CG methylation for this purpose makes sense at a conceptual level, not at the level of evaluating specific details of the methods. I have a small concern in that it is not clear that CG methylation measurements are nearly as binary in other plants and other eukaryotes as they are in Arabidopsis. However, I see no reason why the concept of this work is not conceptually sound. Especially in the future as new sequencing technologies provide both base calling and methylating calling capabilities, using CG methylation in addition to SNPs could become a useful and feasible tool for population genetics in situations where SNPs are insufficient.

      Answer: We thank the reviewer 2 for his positive comments. Indeed, surveys of CG methylation in other plant species show that its distribution is clearly bimodal (i.e. binary). This is not the case for non-CG methylation, such as CHG and CHH (where H=C,T,A). However, these later types of methylation contexts are also not heritable across generations and can therefore not be used as heritable molecular markers.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      I very much like this approach and the idea of incorporating hypervariable markers. The method is intriguing, and the ability to e.g. estimate recombination rates, the size of DMRs, etc. is a really nice plus. I am not able to comment on the details of the statistical inference, but from what I can evaluate it seems sound and reasonable. This is an exciting new avenue for thinking about inference from genomic data. I have a few concerns about the presentation and then also questions about the use of empirical methylation data sets.

      I think a more detailed description of demographic accuracy is warranted. For example, in L245 MSMC2 identifies the bottleneck (albeit smoothed) and only slightly overestimates recent size. In the same analysis the authors' approach with unknown mu infers a nonexistent population increase by an order of magnitude that is not mentioned.

      Answer: We thank the reviewer 3 for his positive comments and refer to our answer to reviewer 1 above. We added RMSE (Root Mean Square Error) analyses to quantify the inference accuracy. We apologize for not mentioning this last point. Thank you for pointing this out and we have now fixed it (line 245-253).

      Similarly, it seems problematic that (L556) the approach requiring estimation of site and region parameters (as would presumably be needed in most empirical systems like endangered nonmodel species mentioned in the introduction) does no better than using only SNPs. Overall, I think a more objective and perhaps quantitative comparison of approaches is warranted.

      Answer : See answer to reviewer 1 above, and more elaborate answers below. We provide now new RMSE analyses to quantify the accuracy of our demographic inference (Supplementary Tables 1,6,7,8,9,10). We also discuss the validity and usefulness of our approach when the epimutation rates are unknown. In short, the discussion was rewritten to further discuss the challenges of application to empirical methylation data. We clarify that in the case epimutations are well known and modelled (as much is known in A. thaliana for example), they can be integrated into a SMC framework to improve the accuracy of the method approach. When epimutations are not well understood and rates unknown, our approach can help understand the epimutational process through generations at the evolutionary time scale. Hence, whether makers are understood or not, our approach can be used to study the marker evolutionary processes through generations and/or to deepen our understanding of the population past history. We hope our discussion underlies better how our approach is designed and can be used.

      The authors simulate methylated markers at 2% (and in some places up to 20%). In many plant genomes a large proportion of cytosines are methylated (e.g. 70% in maize: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8496265/). I don't know what % of these may be polymorphic, but this leads to an order of magnitude more methylated cytosines than there are SNPs. Couldn't this mean that any appreciable error in estimating methylation threatens to be of a similar order of magnitude to the SNP data? I would welcome the authors' thoughts here.

      Answer : The reviewer is correct and this is an interesting question. First, studies show that heritable epimutations in plants are restricted to CG dinucleotides that are located well outside of the target regions of de novo methylation pathways in plants. Most of these CGs tend of fall within so-called gene body methylated regions. While it is true that plant species can differ substantially in their proportion of methylation at the genome-wide scale, the number of gene body methylated genes (i.e. genic CG methylation) is relatively similar, and at least well within the same order of magnitude (Takuno et al. Nature Plants 2016, review in Muyle et al. Genome Biol Evol 2022). Moreover, spontaneous CG epimutations in gene body methylated regions has been shown to be neutral (van Der Graaf et al. 2015, Vidali et al. 2016, Yao et al. 2023), which is an ideal property for phylogentic and demographic inference.

      Second, CG methylation calls are sometimes affected by coverage or uncertainty. Stringent filtering for reliable SMP calls typically reduces the total proportion of CG sites that can be used as input for demographic inference. Here we only kept CG sites where the methylation information could be fully trusted after SMP calling (i.e. >99.9% posteriori certainty). Overall, this explains why the percentage of sites with methylation information is so small, and why we have decided to work on simulation with 2% of reliable methylated markers.

      Nevertheless, for the sake of generality, it may be that in some species such as maize a higher percentage of polymorphic methylated sites can be used, and the number of SMPs could be higher than that of SNPs when the effective population size is very small (due to past demographic history and/or life history traits). In this case, any error in the epimutation rate and variance due to the finite site model estimation (and homoplasy) are not corrected by the lack of SNPs and can lead to mis-inference.

      A few points of discussion about the biology of methylation might be worth including. For example, methylation can differ among cell types or cells within a tissue, yet sequencing approaches evaluate a pool of cells. This results in a reasonable fraction of sites having methylation rates not clearly 0 or 1. How does this variation affect the method? Similarly, while the authors cite literature about the stable inheritance of methylation, a sentence or so more about the time scale over which this occurs would be helpful.

      Answer: We thank reviewer 3 for asking those very interesting questions, which we further developed below and mention in the discussion (lines 716-722).

      For Arabidopsis thaliana:

      Following up on our previous comment above, the majority of the CG sites that serve as input to our approach are located in body methylated genes. Previous work has shown that CG methylation in these regions shows essentially no tissue and cellular heterogeneity (e.g. Horvath et al. 2019). This means that bulk methylation measurements only show limited susceptibility to measurement error. That said, to guard against any spurious SMPs call that could arise from residual measurement variation, we applied stringent filtering of CG methylation. We have kept sites where the methylation percentage is close to either 0% or 100% (the rest being removed from the analysis). We have used similar filtering strategies in previous studies of epimutational processes in mutation accumulation lines and long-lived perennials (work of the Johannes lab). In these later studies we found that the SMP calls sufficiently accurate for inferences of phylogenetic parameters in experimental settings (Sharyhary et al. Genome Biology 2021, Yao et al. Science, 2023).

      For other species:

      It is true that currently, evaluating the methylation state of a site from a pool of cells may be problematic for some species for two main reasons: 1) it will add noise to the signal and SMP calling could be erroneous, and 2) the methylation state used in analysis might originate from different tissues at different location of the genome/methylome. Overall, this will lead to spurious SMPs and can render the inference inaccurate (see Sellinger et al 2021 for the effect of spurious SNPs). Hence, caution is advised when calling SMPs in other species and for different tissues.

      Finally, in some species methylated cytosines have mutation rates an order of magnitude higher than other nucleotides. The authors mention they assume independence, but how would violation of this assumption affect their inference?

      Answer: Indeed, we assume the mutation and epimutation process to be independent thus the probability for a SNP to occur does not depend on the local methylation state. If this was the case, the mutation rate use would indeed be wrong to a degree function of the dependency between the processes. We suggest that by ignoring this dependence, we are in the same situation as ignoring the variation of mutation rate along the genome. We have previously documented the effect of ignoring this biological feature of genomes in Strüt et al 2023 and Sellinger et al 2021. The variation in mutation rate along the genome if too extreme and not accounted for can lead to erroneous inference results. However, this problem could be easily solved (modelled) by adapting the emission matrix. To correctly model this dependency, additional knowledge is needed: either the mutation and epimutation rates must be known to quantify the dependency, or the dependency must be known to quantify the resulting rates. As far as we know, these data are at the moment not available, but could maybe be obtained using the MA lines of A. thaliana (used in Yao et al. 2023).

      Recommendations for the authors:

      All three reviewers liked this approach and found it a valuable contribution. I think it is important to address reviewer 1/3 concerns about quantifying the accuracy of inference (the TMRCA approach from reviewer 1 sounds pretty reasonable), and reviewer 1 also highlights an intriguing point about model accuracy being worse when the mutation rate is known. Additionally, I think some discussion is warranted about challenges dealing with empirical methylation data (points from Rev 2 and 3 as well as Rev 1's question about inferred vs published rates of epigenetic mutation).

      Answer : We have added tables containing the root mean square error (RMSE) of every demographic inference in the manuscript to better quantify accuracy. We have below given the explanation on why accuracy in presence of site and region epimutations can in some cases decrease when real rates are known (because methylation state at the region level needs to be first inferred). We added evidence that accounting for methylation can improve the accuracy when recovering the TMRCA along the genome when the rates are known. We also have enhanced the discussion on the challenges of dealing with epimutations data for inference. As is suggested, we hope this study will generate an interest in tackling these challenges by applying the methods to various methylome datasets from different species.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Major comments:

      • For all of the simulated demographic inference results, only plots are presented. This allowsfor qualitative but not quantitative comparisons to be made across different methods. It is not easy to tell which result is actually better. For example, in Supp. Fig. 5, eSMC2 seems slightly better in the ancient past, and times the trough more effectively, while SMCm seems a bit better in the very recent past. For a more rigorous approach, it would be useful to have accompanying tables that measure e.g. mean-squared error (along with confidence intervals) for each of the different scenarios, similar to what is already done in Tables 1 and 2 for estimating $r$.

      Answer : We understand the concern of reviewer #1 for a more quantitative approach to compare the inference results. We agree that plots are not sufficient to fully grasp a method performance. To provide better supports to quantity approaches performance, we added Sup tables 1,6,8,9 and 10 containing the RMSE (in log10 for visibility) for all Figures. The root mean-squared error is calculated as in Sellinger 2021 and a description of how the root mean-squared error is calculated and now found in the method section lines 886-893.

      • 434: The discussion downplays the really odd result that inputting the true value of themutation rate, in some cases, produces much worse estimates than when they are learned from data (SFig. 6)! I can't think of any reason why this should happen other than some sort of mathematical error or software bug. I strongly encourage the authors to pin down the cause of this puzzling behaviour.

      Answer : There are unfortunately no errors in this plot and those results are perfectly normal and coherent, but we understand they can be confusing at first.

      As described in the method section and in the appendix, when accounting for regionlevel epimutations, our algorithm requires the regional methylation status which needs to be inferred as a first step from the data (real or simulated). Because region and single site epimutation events are occurring at similar rates in our simulated scenario, the methylation state of the region is very hard to correctly recover (e.g. there will be unmethylated site in methylated regions and methylated sites in unmethylated regions). In other words, the accuracy of the region estimation HMM procedure is decreased by the joint action of site and region epimutation processes.

      When subsequently applying the HMM for inference, as described in the appendix, the probabilities of two CG site being in the same or different methylation state depends on the methlylation state of the "region". Hence the mislabelling of the region methylation state is (to some extent) equivalent to spurious SMPs (or inaccurate SMP calling).

      If the true rates for site and region epimutations are given as input, the model forces the demography (and other inferred parameters) to fit the observed distribution of SMPs (given the inputted rates), resulting in the poor accuracy observed in the Figure (Now Supplementary Figure 7).

      Note: The estimated rates from real data in A. thaliana suffer from the same issue as the region and site epimutation rates are independently estimated, and the existence of regions first quantified using an independent HMM method (Denkena et al. 2022).

      However, when rates are freely inferred, they are inferred accordingly to the estimated methylation status of regions and SNPs. Therefore, even if the inferred rates are wrong, they are used by the SMC in a more consistent way.

      Note: When methylation rates violate the infinite site assumption, such as here, we first estimate the tree sequence along the genome using SNPs (i.e. DNA mutations). The algorithm then infers the epimutations rates given the inferred coalescent times and the observed methylation diversity.

      To summarise: when inputting rates to the model, if the model fails to correctly recover the region methylation status there will be conflicting information between SNPs and SMPs leading to accuracy loss. However if the rates are inferred this is realized with the help of SNPs, leading to less conflicting information and potentially smaller loss of accuracy. We apologize that the explanations were missing from the manuscript and have added them lines 449-460 and 702-716.

      A further argument is that if region and site epimutations occur at rates of at least two orders of magnitude difference, the inference results are better (and accurate) when the true rates are given. The reason is that one epimutational process overrides the other (see Supplementary Table 2). In that case one epimutation process is almost negligible and we fall back to results from Figure 5 or Supplementary Figure 6.

      • As noted at 580, all of the added power from integrating SMPs/DMRs should come fromimproved estimation of recent TMRCAs. So, another way to study how much improvement there is would be to look at the true vs. estimated/posterior TMRCAs. Although I agree that demographic inference is ultimately the most relevant task, comparing TMRCA inference would eliminate other sources of differences between the methods (different optimization schemes, algorithmic/numerical quirks, and so forth). This could be a useful addition, and may also give you more insight into why the augmented SMC methods do worse in some cases.

      Answer : We fully agree with reviewer 1. We have added a comparison in TMRCA inference as proof of principle between using or not using methylation sites. The results are written in Supplementary Table 7 and methodology is inspired by Schiffels 2014 and described at the end of the method section (line 894-907). Those results demonstrate the potential gain in accuracy when using methylation polymorphic. However, TMRCA (or ARG) inference is a very vast and complex subject in its own right. Therefore, we are developing a complete TMRCA/ARG inference investigation and an improve methodology than the one presented in this manuscript. To do so we are currently working on a manuscript focusing on this topic specifically. We hence consider further investigations of TMRCA/ARG inference beyond the scope of this current study.

      • A general remark on the derivations in Section 2 of the supplement: I checked theseformulas as best I could. But a cleaner, less tedious way of calculating these probabilities would be to express the mutation processes as continuous time Markov chains. Then all that is needed is to specify the rate matrices; computing the emission probabilities needed for the SMC methods reduces to manipulating the results of some matrix exponentials. In fact, because the processes are noninteracting, the rate matrix decomposes into a Kronecker sum of the individual rate matrices for each process, which is very easy to code up. And this structure can be exploited when computing the matrix exponential, if speed is an issue.

      Answer: We thank the reviewer for this very interesting suggestion! Unfortunately, it is a bit late to re-implement the algorithm and reshape the manuscript according to this suggestion. Speed is not yet an issue but will most likely become one in the future when integrating many different rates or when using a more complex SMC model. Hence, we added reviewer #1 suggestions to the discussion (line 648) and hope to be using it in our future projects.

      • Most (all?) of the SNP-only SMC methods allow for binning together consecutiveobservations to cut down on computation time. I did not see binning mentioned anywhere, did you consider it? If the method really processes every site, how long does it take to run?

      Answer: This is a very good question. We do the binning exactly as described in Mailund 2013 & Terhorst 2017, and added this information in the method section (lines 801-809). However, as described in Terhorst 2017, one can only bin observation of the same "type" (to compute the Baum-Welch algorithm). Therefore, the computation time gain by binning is reduced when different markers spread along the genome in high proportion. This is the approach we used throughout the study when facing multiple markers as it had the best speed performance. As for example, when the proportion of site with methylated information is 1% or less, computation time is only slightly affected (i.e. same order of magnitude).

      However, the binning method presented in Mailund 2013 can be extended to observation of different types, but parameters need to be estimated through a full likelihood approach (as presented in Figure 2). In our study this approach did not have the best speed performance. However, as our study is the first of its kind, it remains sub-optimal for now. Hence, we did not further investigate the performance of our approach in presence of many multiple different genomic marker (e.g. 5 different markers each representing ~20% of the genome each). Currently, with SMC approaches a high proportion of sites contain the information "No SNPs", making the Baum welch algorithm described in Terhorst 2017 very efficient. But when further developing our theoretical approach, we expect that most of the sites in a genome analysis will contain some "information", which could render the full likelihood approach computationally more tractable.

      • 486: The assumed site and region (de)methylation rates listed here are several OOMdifferent from what your method estimated (Supp. Tables 5-6). Yet, on simulated data your method is usually correct to within an order of magnitude (Supp. Table 4). How are we to interpret this much larger difference between the published estimates and yours? If the published estimates are not reliable, doesn't that call into question your interpretation of the blue line in Fig. 7 at 533?

      Answer: We thank the reviewer for asking this question. We believe answering this question is indeed the most interesting aspect of our study. Beyond demographic inference, our study has indeed unveiled a discrepancy between rates inferred through biological experiment and our study through the use of SNPs and branch length. There are several reasons which could explained the discrepancy between both approaches:

      • Firstly, our underlying HMM hypotheses are certainly violated. We ignoredpopulation structure, variation of mutations and recombination rate along the genome as well as the effect of selection. Hence, the branch lengths used for methylation rate estimations are to some extent inaccurate. We note that this is especially likely for the short branches of coalescent tree originating from background selection events in the coding regions and which are especially observable when using the methylation sites with a higher mutation rate than SNPs (Yao et al. 2023) at body methylated genes.

      • Secondly, calling single methylation site polymorphism is not 100 % reliable. If theerror rate is 0.1%, as the study was conducted on ~10 generations a minimum epimutation rate of 10-4 is to be expected. However, because our approach works at the evolutionary time scale, we expect that it suffers less from this bias as the proportion of diversity originating from actual epimutations, and not SMP calling error, should be greater.

      • Thirdly, as mentioned above, recovering the methylation status of a region is veryhard. Hence false region status inference could affect our inference accuracy as shown in Supplementary Figure 4.

      • Lastly and most importantly, the reason behind this discrepancy is the modelling ofepimutation and methylation between sites and regions. As we discuss, the current combination of rates and models is still limited to describe the observed diversity along the genome (as we intend in SMC methods). This is in contrast to the recent study by Yao et al. where very few regions of polymorphic SMPs are chosen, which implicitly avoids the influence of the methylation region effect. A study just published by Biffra et al. (Cell reports 2023) also uses a functional model of methylation modelling using a mix of region and site epimutation, albeit not tuned for evolutionary analyses. Thus we suggest, in line with functional studies, that epimutations are not independent from the local methylation context and may tend to stabilize the methylation state of a region. Therefore, the estimated methylation rates show a discrepancy to the previously measured ones. Indeed, the biological experiment would reveal a fast epimutation rate because epimutations can actually be tracked at sites which can mutate, while region mutation rate is much slower. However, because the methylation state of a region is rather stable through time it would reduce the methylation diversity over long time scale, and these rates would differ between methylated or unmethylated regions (i.e. the methylation rate is higher in methylated regions). Our results are thus in agreement with the observation by Biffra et al. that region methylation modelling is needed to explain patterns of methylation across the genome.

      To solve the discrepancy, one would need to develop a theoretical region + site epimutation model capable of describing the observed diversity at the evolutionary time scale (possibly based on the Biffra et al. model within an underlying population evolution model), and then use this model to reanalyse the sequence data from the biological experiment (i.e. in de Graaf et al. 2015 & Denkena et al. 2022) to re-estimate the methylation region sizes and epimutation rates.

      Minor comments:

      • 189: "SMCtheo" first occurs here, but it's not mentioned until 247 that this is the newmethod being presented.

      Answer : Fixed

      • 199: Are the estimates in this section from a single diploid sequence? Or is it n=5 (diploid) as mentioned in the earlier section?

      Answer : Yes, those results were obtained with 5 diploid individuals. We added it in the Table 1 description.

      • 336: I'm confused by the wording: it sounds like the test rejects the null if there is positivecorrelation in the methylation status across sites. But then, shouldn't 339 read "if the test is significant" (not non-significant)?

      Answer : We apologize for the confusion and rewrote the sentence line 339-348, the choice of word was indeed misleading .

      • Fig. 6: for some reason fewer simulations were run for 10Mb (panels C nad D) than for100Mb (A and B). Since it's very difficult to tell what's happening on average in the 10Mb case, I suggest running the same number of simulations.

      Answer : Yes we understand your concern. Actually, the same number of simulations were run but we plotted only the first 3 runs as it was less visually confusing. We now have added the missing lines to the plot C and D.

      Typos:

      • 104: "or or"

      • 292: build => built

      • 388: fulfil

      • 683: sample => samples

      Answer : Many thanks to reviewer 1 for pointing out the typos. They are all now fixed.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The authors may find some valuable information in Pisupati et al (2023) "On the causes of gene-body methylation variation in Arabidopsis thaliana" on interpreting epimutation rates.

      Answer: Many thanks for the recommended manuscript. We add it to the cited literature as it strongly supports our use of heritability or methylation. We also added the recent Biffra et al. paper.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      There are many places throughout the manuscript with minor grammatical errors. Please review these. A few noted below as I read:

      L104: extra "or"

      L123: built not build

      L 160 "relies" instead of "do rely"

      L161 "events"

      L 336 "from methylation data"

      L 378 "exists"

      L 379 "regions are on average shorter" instead of "there are shorter"

      L 338 "a regional-level"

      L 349 "," instead of "but"

      L 394 DMRs

      Table 1 legend: parentheses not brackets?

      Answer : Many thanks to reviewer #3 for finding those mistakes. They are all now fixed.

      I think a paragraph in the discussion of considerations of when to use this approach might be helpful to readers. Comparison to e.g. increased sample size in MSMC2, while not necessary, might be helpful here. It may often be the case that doubling the number of haplotypes with SNP data may be easier and cheaper estimating methylation accurately.

      Answer : We discuss (lines 691-698) that our approach is always useful by design, but cannot always be used for the same purpose. If the evolutionary properties of the used marker used are not understood, we suggest that our approach can be used to investigate the marker heritability process through generations. This could help to correctly design experiments aiming to study the marker heritability through lineages. And if the properties of the marker are well understood and modelled, it can be integrated into the SMC framework to improve inference accuracy.

      Other minor notes:

      L 486 "known" is a stretch. empirically estimated seems appropriate.

      Answer : Fixed

      L 573 ARG? You are not estimating the full ARG here.

      Answer : We apologize for the wrong choice of word and have rephrased the sentence.

      Fig. 2 is not super useful and could be supplemental.

      Answer : We moved Figure 2 to the appendix (now sup fig 1)

    1. Note: This response was posted by the corresponding author to Review Commons. The content has not been altered except for formatting.

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      Reply to the reviewers

      We appreciate the time and effort that you and the reviewers have dedicated to providing your valuable feedback on our manuscript. Those comments are all valuable and very helpful for revising and improving our paper, as well as the importance guiding significance to our researches. We have highlighted the changes in yellow within the manuscript.

      *Here is a point-by-point response to the reviewers’ comments and concerns. *

      Comments from Reviewer #1 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      The provided document, titled "Camel Milk Affects Serum Metabolites by Modulating the Intestinal Microflora," is an extensive research paper. My summary covers the first 44 pages of the total 63 pages. The document begins with a standard review commons manuscript notice and provides contact information for the Review Commons office.

      The research focuses on the effects of camel milk on serum metabolites and the intestinal microflora. It starts with a detailed introduction to the topic, outlining the crucial role of gut microbes in human health and the influence of various factors like diet, genetics, and environment on these microbes. The paper emphasizes the nutritional richness of camel milk and its potential as a functional food, particularly its impact on gut microbiota and host metabolism.

      Initial sections of the paper discuss the research methodologies, including the study's keywords, abstract, and introduction. The abstract highlights the study's significant findings, such as the presence of various beneficial bacteria in sour camel milk, the inter- and intra-species transportation of microbiomes, and the impact of camel milk on the gut microflora and serum metabolites of type 2 diabetic rats.

      The introduction further delves into the composition of the human gut microbiota and the shaping factors of the adult gut microbiome. It also examines the role of diet in modulating gut microbiota and the potential health benefits of dairy products, with a particular focus on camel milk.

      Subsequent sections present detailed research findings, including the results of microbial composition and source analysis in camel milk, the composition and changes of rat gut microbiota under camel milk regulation, and the effects of camel milk-regulated gut microbiota on metabolism in rats. The research also explores the interspecies transfer of microbes using camel milk as a vector and analyzes the gut microbiota in people consuming camel milk.

      The paper further discusses the endophytic flora of camel edible desert plants and their possible influence on the camel's gut microbiota. The discussion section integrates the findings, offering insights into the potential health benefits of camel milk and its probiotic qualities. It also compares the effects of camel milk with other dairy products and discusses its role as a vector for beneficial microbes.

      Materials and methods used in the study are detailed towards the end of the summarized portion, describing sample collection and processing, the experimental setup for rats, and data processing and analysis techniques.

      Reviewer #1 (Significance (Required)):

      The paper continues with detailed research findings, including the microbial composition in camel milk, the impact on the gut microflora of rats and humans, and the serum metabolism effects.

      There's a focus on how camel milk, as a vector, can transfer beneficial microbes between species, influencing gut microbiota and host metabolism.

      The paper compares the effects of camel milk with other dairy products, emphasizing its unique health benefits and its role in transferring beneficial microbes.

      It discusses various bacteria found in camel milk and their potential health benefits.

      The research findings extend to understanding how camel milk affects human gut microbiota, with studies on pastoral herders who consume camel or bovine milk.

      Author response: We thank you for your approval and constructive and valuable feedback from you and other reviewers.

      Comments from Reviewer #2 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      summary:

      The authors introduce a study assessing the bacterial flora of sour fermented camel milk and its capability to introduce beneficial species into consumer's gut. They further tested the potential of its nutrients and species for beneficial effects on type 2 diabetic (t2d) rats. They claim that t2d rats fed with high-dose camel whey reveal a microbiota closer to that of healthy rats rather than that of other t2d rats not receiving the camel whey treatment. Further they claim that this effect is due to the presence of Eubacterium limnetica that was exclusively found in the gut microflora of rats taking camel milk and producing MtcB protein. They conclude that camel milk may have the potential to be functional food.

      Overall, I think the approach of looking into camel milk and its microbiota is of broad interest, as it is food consumed traditionally by many tribes and in several countries. However, to me the presentation of the findings, the data and the analysis is often unprecise and confusing.

      For example, the MtcB protein they claim to be the mechanism of reducing the risk for t2d in the abstract is mentioned only once in the whole study and there only as a finding of another study (cited). According to my understanding the abstract should contain the main findings of the study, rather than some side-finding from other studies happens to match with the study results. I assume the authors have plenty of results from their sequencing data and metabolomics that they could mention in the abstract.

      In the text the authors mention the analysis of the microbial composition and source analysis of camel milk, the analysis of the gut microbiota of young camels, the composition, and changes of rat gut microbiota under the regulation of camel milk, the structure and changes of gut microbiota in people taking camel milk and the analysis of the endophytic flora of camel edible desert plants. And this just quoting the headers in the results section. Why is that not represented/mentioned in the abstract? Instead the authors focus on the t2d rats and the MtcB mechanism they fail to present.

      Further the authors are sloppy when it comes to typos and preciseness. For example, in the abstract they talk first about sour camel milk, then whey and then milk again.

      I suggest a major restructuring/rewriting and if necessary partial reanalysing of the results and the conclusions.

      It would be good to have an overview figure combining the work done, also stating the number of samples for each experiment.

      __Author response: __Thank you very much for your nice suggestion on our manuscript, we applied some restructuring to our manuscript and the changes were highlighted in yellow.

      Major comments:

      1) Please make sure all raw data (sequences and filtering/assembly results) are deposited in public databases, like NCBI, ENA or else.

      __Author response: __The corresponding data is available as Mendeley Data, V1, https://doi.org/10. 17632/4w8n8n96tc.1, some datasets with bigger size uploaded failed owing to internet problem. The full version could be offered in other approaches if requested.

      2) Please state briefly for each dataset analysed, which sequencing method was used, how many samples were collected and how many were pooled for the sequencing runs:

      AmpliAeq, whole metagenome HiSeq, MiSeq?

      __Author response: __Sample and dataset information for sequence was supplied in Supplementary Table 9 and 12. Sequencing library was prepared following Illumina library preparation instructions, and sequenced using Illumina Miseq platform at Majorbio Bio-Pharm Technology Co., Ltd. (Shanghai, China) with pair-end (PE) 150 bp reads.

      3) Page14 line283:

      F082? What is it? A strain, species or a sample?

      Please state clearly in the text.

      Also please avoid using abbreviations where possible and if you have to use them, please define.

      __Author response: __When applying diversity analysis at the specie level, a species annotated as unclassified_g_norank_f_F082 was found abundant in camel feces in Darbancheng.

      4) Page14 line307:

      "These evidenced that camel milk was a vector transferring microbes from the female camel to their cubs."

      Yes, that may be likely, but 16S amplicon-seq cannot provide evidence. Evidence would be strain similarity confirmed by SNP's or the like. So please state that this is speculative or show appropriate evidence.

      __Author response: __We completely agree that SNP’s is better evidence for this point and thank you. Microbial diversity analysis was a main part of initial design, and our limited sample couldn’t meet the needs of diversity and SNPs in the same time. There also were reports which used 16S based methods to trace the microbes source(Du et al., 2022; El-Mokdad, 2014; Wang et al., 2018).

      5) Page15 line322 ff:

      "Besides, using raw milk was not effective in type 2 diabetic rat model, so we chose camel whey and bovine whey as the diet of type 2 diabetic rats in follow-up experiments"

      Data/evidence? How is it different from whey on a nutrient perspective, as whey was more effective? Any explanation for this difference? And the bovine whey, what species did it contain? Can they be transferred regarding the processing of whey prior to application?

      __Author response: __This is an interesting and valuable question. We prepared raw milk and whey for the pre-test, then directly turned to validate the function of whey. Maybe we will investigate the composition difference in the future. The whey was prepared using the following protocol: Centrifuge fresh milk for 20 mins at 5000 r/min, discard the fat, and precipitate and obtain the middle layer of skim milk. After 20 mins in a 40 ℃ water bath, adjust the pH to 4.6 with 10% glacial acetic acid, and store in a 4°C refrigerator, overnight. Then, the skim milk was centrifuged at 8000 r/min for 20 min, repeated twice, and the middle whey fraction was collected. The centrifuged whey was poured into a petri dish and sealed. It was frozen at -80°C for 12 hours and then pierced with a sterile toothpick on the petri dish and then freeze-dried to get whey powders. A speculation was the preparing progress of whey played an important role in their functional difference. A comprehensive comparison of camel raw milk, camel whey, bovine raw milk, and whey will be an interesting point and we may investigate it shortly.

      6) Page17 line366ff:

      "Taking the number of microbes involved in this pathway, 8001 species were noted in the high-dose camel whey group, 3447 in the positive drug group, and only 1467 in the diabetics." How many species were present in the rats initially? Was species abundance different in the first place, or did they get lost, or came from the camel whey?

      __Author response: __The rats were fed with broad-spectrum antibiotics for 2 weeks, which ensured the same species abundance in the beginning.

      7) Page17 line369 ff:

      "It indicated that these microbes might resist the high glucose environment of the host through the synthesis and metabolism of their amino acids, and the effect of high-dose camel milk was more effective than that of metformin"

      -> How high was the glucose level in the rat gut? Or were there any obvious physiological changes in the t2d model rats that are characteristic for such a high-glucose environment? Please explain.

      __Author response: __This is an interesting and critical question. We didn’t measure the glucose level in the rat gut directly because we had to make sure other related characterizations worked properly. Besides, we thought camel milk could regulate microbial community, and further influence the blood sugar level, which was more representative in our sight. Blood sugar level is supplied in Fig.4O and Supplementary Table 11.

      8) The resolution/quality of the figures is low and the labelling often small. So not all text is readable.

      __Author response: __We adjusted the figures in the manuscript and offered additional independent picture files. Additionally, it seemed caused by the PDF merge progress, please check the pictures in .docx or .png files for details.

      9) Page19 line400 ff:

      What serum metabolites were analysed and why? Please write an intro-sentence to make it easier for the reader.

      Please write more precise what methods were used. Maybe I missed it, but I didn't find it in the methods part as well (Page40/41).

      __Author response: __The rats fed high-dose camel whey or metformin showed similar improvement in serum metabolite imbalance and were closer to normal. Caproylcarnitine, taurodeoxycholic acid, acetylcarnitine, creatinine, linoleic acid, and tridecanoic acid were detected as upregulated; 2-deoxyuridine, cyclohexylamine, L-pipecolic acid, LysoPC(18:0), uracil, caprylic acid, cholesterol sulfate, L-citrulline, pelargonic acid, and phenol downregulated. Carnitine supplementation, due to its key role in lipid metabolism and antioxidant effects, may effectively manage Type 2 Diabetes by addressing fatty acid metabolism dysregulation and oxidative stress(Bene, Hadzsiev, & Melegh, 2018). Studies have shown that taurodeoxycholic acid can enhance the effect of insulin and reduce blood sugar levels by regulating endoplasmic reticulum stress, and have potential in the treatment of diabetes(Xing, Zhou, Wang, & Xu, 2023). Low serum creatinine is associated with the development of T2D(Song, Hong, Sung, & Lee, 2022). Increased linoleic acid consumption was recommended for the prevention of T2D(Henderson, Crofts, & Schofield, 2018). The uridine is phosphorylated into uracil, which is converted to 2-deoxyuridine. Then 2-deoxyuridine is further converted to thymine with thymidine phosphorylase, the expression of thymidine phosphorylase was lost or considerably reduced when the organism suffered nephropathy and the high concentration of thymidine is a cause of DNA impairment, which is related to diabetes and diabetic nephropathy(Spinazzola et al., 2002; Szabo et al.; Xia, Hu, Liang, Zou, Wang, & Luo, 2010). L-Pipecolic acid are associated with higher incidence of T2D(Razquin et al., 2019). A research showed LysoPC(16:0) and (18:0) may mediated a fast progression of diabetic kidney disease(Yoshioka et al., 2022). Cholesterol sulfate is the most abundant known sterol sulfate in human plasma, and it plays a significant role in the control of glucose metabolism, which contribute to the pathogenesis of insulin resistance and the resultant development of diabetes(Shi et al., 2014; Zhang et al., 2022). L-citrulline supplementation might improve glucose homeostasis, some lipid factors and inflammatory markers in overweight and obese patients with T2D(Azizi, Mahdavi, Mobasseri, Aliasgharzadeh, Abbaszadeh, & Ebrahimi-Mameghani, 2021). T2D mellitus is associated with increased total plasma free fatty acid and modulating its concentration is the mechanism of some fibrates and statins drugs(I. S. Sobczak, A. Blindauer, & J. Stewart, 2019). Most of these metabolites have been reported as causes of T2D or consequences of T2D progress, some have been designed as therapeutic target.

      The serum metabolites were carried out using Agilent 1290 Infinity UHPLC system equipped with a HILIC column. The mobile phase of the optimized method consisted of (A) water with 25 mM ammonium acetate and 25 mM ammonia; and (B) acetonitrile (ACN). The following gradient elution was used: 5% A at 0-1min; 5-35% A at 1-14 min; 35-60% A at 14-16 min; 60% A at 16-18 min ; 60-5% A at 18-18.1 min and 5% A at 18.1-23 min. The flow rate was 0.3 mL/min, injection volume 2 μL, and column temperature was 25 ℃. Triple TOF 5600 mass spectrometer was applied for mass spectrometer analysis. The condition was used as following: Ion Source Gas1:60,Ion Source Gas2:60,Curtain gas:30,source temperature:600℃,IonSapary Voltage Floating ± 5500 V. TOF MS scan m/z range:60-1000 Da,product ion scan m/z range:25-1000 Da,TOF MS scan accumulation time 0.20 s/spectra, product ion scan accumulation time 0.05 s/spectra.MS/MS was gathered by information dependent acquisition (IDA) using high sensitivity mode, Declustering potential:±60 V, Collision Energy:35±15 eV, and IDA was set as Exclude isotope within 4 Da, Candidate ions to monito per cycle: 6. The methods part was complemented.

      Minor comments:

      1) Page1, line56-58 ff

      Please phrase more clearly:

      "This study specified that the transportation of microbiome happened both intra- and inter-species and played a principal role in the formation of progeny gut microflora."

      While the content is mostly comprehensible, there is a need for rephrasing and correction of language also in the following text.

      __Author response: __As suggested by the reviewer, we have rephrased and modified the abstract part.

      2) Page14 line300 ff:

      There is no need to show the OTU numbers in the text, please provide your results as a table in the supplements and refer to it in the text.

      Author response: We deleted OTU numbers in the manuscript and added the corresponding table in supplementary file.

      3) Page15 line328: Please check for typos, it is Shannon index, not Shanno.

      __Author response: __The corresponding correction was applied in the manuscript.

      4) Page16 line334:

      Please mention the number, age and sex of the rats used and how many groups you had in your experiments.

      __Author response: __SPF-grade male rats weighing 180-220 g were used for our related experiments. The detailed information is available in Supplementary Material (Supplementary Table 11-13).

      5) The headlines should logically structure the paper:

      For example, the authors have two very similar sections in the results part: "Composition and changes of rat gut microbiota under the regulation of camel milk" and "Analysis of the composition of gut microbiota in rats". Those can be combined or stated more concise.

      Also, other headlines improvement to make it easier for the reader to follow.

      __Author response: __We adjusted this part in the manuscript according to the reviewer’s suggestion.

      Reviewer #2 (Significance (Required)):

      I do think the study is of broad interest and relevance. However, the presentation of the analysis and data needs major revision. Especially it is lacking clarity on what was done for which samples and how the authors draw their conclusions. Also, I think that abstract and main text have a different focus. I would suggest to the authors to concentrate on their findings in abstract and text and state precisely what was done and what they found.

      __Author response: __Thank you very much for your recognition of our manuscript.