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    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Life Assessment

      This valuable study builds on previous work by the authors by presenting a potentially key method for correcting optical aberrations in GRIN lens-based micro endoscopes used for imaging deep brain regions. By combining simulations and experiments, the authors show that the obtained field of view is significantly increased with corrected, versus uncorrected microendoscopes. The evidence supporting the claims of the authors is solid, although some aspects of the manuscript should be clarified and missing information provided. Because the approach described in this paper does not require any microscope or software modifications, it can be readily adopted by neuroscientists who wish to image neuronal activity deep in the brain.

      We thank the Referees for their interest in the paper and for the constructive feedback. We have taken the time necessary to address all of their comments, acquiring new data and performing additional analyses. With the inclusion of these new results, we modified four main figures (Figures 1, 6, 7, and 8), added three new Supplementary Figures (Supplementary Figures 1, 2, and 3), and significantly edited the text. Based on the additional work suggested by the Referees, we believe that we have improved our manuscript, provided missing information, and clarified some aspects of the manuscript, which the Referees pointed our attention to.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Referee’s comment: Sattin, Nardin, and colleagues designed and evaluated corrective microlenses that increase the useable field of view of two long (>6mm) thin (500 um diameter) GRIN lenses used in deep-tissue two-photon imaging. This paper closely follows the thread of earlier work from the same group (e.g. Antonini et al, 2020; eLife), filling out the quiver of available extended-fieldof-view 2P endoscopes with these longer lenses. The lenses are made by a molding process that appears practical and easy to adopt with conventional two-photon microscopes.

      Simulations are used to motivate the benefits of extended field of view, demonstrating that more cells can be recorded, with less mixing of signals in extracted traces, when recorded with higher optical resolution. In vivo tests were performed in the piriform cortex, which is difficult to access, especially in chronic preparations.

      The design, characterization, and simulations are clear and thorough, but not exhaustive (see below), and do not break new ground in optical design or biological application. However, the approach shows much promise, including for applications not mentioned in the present text such as miniaturized GRIN-based microscopes. Readers will largely be interested in this work for practical reasons: to apply the authors' corrected endoscopes.

      Strengths:

      The text is clearly written, the ex vivo analysis is thorough and well-supported, and the figures are clear. The authors achieved their aims, as evidenced by the images presented, and were able to make measurements from large numbers of cells simultaneously in vivo in a difficult preparation.

      Weaknesses:

      Referee’s comment: (1) The novelty of the present work over previous efforts from the same group is not well explained. What needed to be done differently to correct these longer GRIN lenses?

      We thank the Referee for the positive evaluation of our work. The optical properties of GRIN lenses depend on the geometrical and optical features of the specific GRIN lens type considered, i.e. its diameter, length, numerical aperture, pitch, and radial modulation of the refractive index. Our approach is based on the addition of a corrective optical element at the back end of the GRIN lens to compensate for aberrations that light encounters as it travels through the GRIN lens. The corrective optical element must, therefore, be specifically tailored to the specific GRIN lens type we aim to correct the aberrations of. The novelty of the present article lies in the successful execution of the ray-trace simulations and two-photon lithography fabrication of corrective optical elements necessary to achieve aberration correction in the two novel and long GRIN lens types, i.e. NEM-050-25-15-860-S-1.5p and NEM-050-23-15-860-S-2.0p (GRIN length, 6.4 mm and 8.8 mm, respectively). Our previous work (Antonini et al. eLife 2020) demonstrated aberration correction with GRIN lenses shorter than 4.1 mm. The design and fabrication of a single corrective optical element suitable to enlarge the field-of-view (FOV) in these longer GRIN lenses is not obvious, especially because longer GRIN lenses are affected by stronger aberrations. To better clarify this point, we revised the Introduction at page 5 (lines 3-10 from bottom) as follows:

      “Recently, a novel method based on 3D microprinting of polymer optics was developed to correct for GRIN aberrations by placing specifically designed aspherical corrective lenses at the back end of the GRIN lens 7. This approach is attractive because it is built-in on the GRIN lens and corrected microendoscopes are ready-to-use, requiring no change in the optical set-up. However, previous work demonstrated the feasibility of this method only for GRIN lenses of length < 4.1 mm 7, which are too short to reach the most ventral regions of the mouse brain. The applicability of this technology to longer GRIN lenses, which are affected by stronger optical aberrations 19, remained to be proven.”

      (2) Some strong motivations for the method are not presented. For example, the introduction (page 3) focuses on identifying neurons with different coding properties, but this can be done with electrophysiology (albeit with different strengths and weaknesses). Compared to electrophysiology, optical methods more clearly excel at genetic targeting, subcellular measurements, and molecular specificity; these could be mentioned.

      Thank you for the comment. We added a paragraph in the Introduction (page 3, lines 2-8) according to what suggested by the Reviewer:

      “High resolution 2P fluorescence imaging of the awake brain is a fundamental tool to investigate the relationship between the structure and the function of brain circuits 1. Compared to electrophysiological techniques, functional imaging in combination with genetically encoded indicators allows monitoring the activity of genetically targeted cell types, access to subcellular compartments, and tracking the dynamics of many biochemical signals in the brain (2). However, a critical limitation of multiphoton microscopy lies in its limited (< 1 mm) penetration depth in scattering biological media 3”.

      Another example, in comparing microfabricated lenses to other approaches, an unmentioned advantage is miniaturization and potential application to mini-2P microscopes, which use GRIN lenses.

      We added the concept suggested by the Reviewer in the Discussion (page 21, lines 4-7 from bottom). The text now reads:

      “Another advantage of long corrected microendoscopes described here over adaptive optics approaches is the possibility to couple corrected microendoscopes with portable 2P microscopes 42-44, allowing high resolution functional imaging of deep brain circuits on an enlarged FOV during naturalistic behavior in freely moving mice”.

      (3) Some potentially useful information is lacking, leaving critical questions for potential adopters:

      How sensitive is the assembly to decenter between the corrective optic and the GRIN lens?

      Following the Referee’s comment, we conducted new optical simulations to evaluate the decrease in optical performance of the corrected endoscopes as a function of the radial shift of the corrective lens from the optical axis of the GRIN rod (decentering, new Supplementary Figure 3), using light rays passing either off- or on-axis. For off-axis rays, we found that the Strehl ratio remained above 0.8 (Maréchal criterion) for positive translations in the range 6-11.5 microns and 16-50 microns for the 6.4 mm- and the 8.8 mm-long corrected microendoscope, respectively, while the Strehl ratio decreased below 0.8 for negative translations of amplitude ~ 5 microns. Please note that for the most marginal rays, a negative translation produces a mismatch between the corrective microlens and the GRIN lens such that the light rays no longer pass through the corrective lens. In contrast, rays passing near the optical axis were still focused by the corrected probe with Strehl ratio above 0.8 in a range of radial shifts of -40 – 40 microns for both microendoscope types. Altogether, these novel simulations suggest that decentering between the corrective microlens and the GRIN lens < 5 microns do not majorly affect the optical properties of the corrected endoscopes. These new results are now displayed in Supplementary Figure 3 and described on page 7 (lines 3-5 from bottom).

      What is the yield of fabrication and of assembly?

      The fabrication yield using molding was ~ 90% (N > 30 molded lenses). The main limitation of this procedure was the formation of air bubbles between the mold negative and the glass coverslip. Molded lenses were visually inspected with a stereomicrscope and, in case of air bubble formation, they were discarded.

      The assembly yield, i.e. correct positioning of the GRIN lens with respect to the coverslip, was 100 % (N = 27 endoscopes).

      We added this information in the Methods at page 29 (lines 1-12), as follows:

      “After UV curing, the microlens was visually inspected at the stereomicroscope. In case of formation of air bubbles, the microlens was discarded (yield of the molding procedure: ~ 90 %, N > 30 molded lenses). The coverslip with the attached corrective lens was sealed to a customized metal or plastic support ring of appropriate diameter (Fig. 2C). The support ring, the coverslip and the aspherical lens formed the upper part of the corrected microendoscope, to be subsequently coupled to the proper GRIN rod (Table 2) using a custom-built opto-mechanical stage and NOA63 (Fig. 2C) 7. The GRIN rod was positioned perpendicularly to the glass coverslip, on the other side of the coverslip compared to the corrective lens, and aligned to the aspherical lens perimeter (Fig. 2C) under the guidance of a wide field microscope equipped with a camera. The yield of the assembly procedure for the probes used in this work was 100 % (N = 27 endoscopes). For further details on the assembly of corrected microendoscope see(7)”. 

      Supplementary Figure 1: Is this really a good agreement between the design and measured profile? Does the figure error (~10 um in some cases on average) noticeably degrade the image?

      As the Reviewer correctly noticed, the discrepancy between the simulated profile and the experimentally measured profile can be up to 5-10 microns at specific radial positions. This discrepancy could be due to issues with: (i) the fabrication of the microlens; (ii) the experimental measurement of the lens profile with the stylus profilometer. To discriminate among these two possibilities, we asked what would be the expected optical properties of the corrected endoscope should the corrective lens have the experimentally measured (not the simulated) profile. To this aim, we performed new optical simulations of the point spread function (PSF) of the corrected probe using, as corrective microlens profile, the average, experimentally measured, profile of a fabricated corrective lens. For both microendoscope types, we first fitted the mean experimentally measured profile of the fabricated lens with the aspherical function reported in equation (1) of the main text:

      where:

      -                is the radial distance from the optical axis;

      -                is equal to 1⁄ , where R is the radius of curvature;

      -                is the conic constant;

      -                − are asphericity coefficients;

      -                is the height of the microlens profile on-axis.

      The fitting values of the parameters of equation (1) for the two lenses are reported for the Referee’s inspection here below (variables describing distances are expressed in mm):

      Author response table 1.

      Fitting values for the parameters of Equation (1) describing the profile of corrective microlens replicas measured with the stylus profilometer. Distances are expressed in mm.

      We then assumed that the profile of the corrective microlenses were equal to the mean experimentally measured profiles and used the aspherical fitting functions in the optical simulations to compute the performance of corrected microendoscopes. For both microendoscope types, we found that the Strehl ratio was lower than 0.35, well below the theoretical diffractionlimited threshold of 0.8 (Maréchal criterion) at moderate distances from the optical axis (68 μm94 μm and 67 μm-92 μm on the focal plane in the object space, after the front end of the GRIN lens, for the 6.4 mm- and the 8.8 mm-long corrected microendoscope, respectively, Author response image 1A, C), and the PSF was strongly distorted (Author response image 1B, D).

      Author response image 1.

      Simulated optical performance of corrected probes with profiles of corrective microlenses equal to the mean experimentally measured profiles of fabricated corrective lenses. A) The Strehl ratio for the 6.4 mm-long corrected microendoscope with measured microlens profile (black dots) is computed on-axis (distance from the center of the FOV d = 0 µm) and at two radial distances off-axis (d = 68 μm and 94 μm on the focal plane in the object space) and compared to the Strehl ratio of the uncorrected (red line) and corrected (blue line) microendoscopes. B) Lateral (x,y) and axial (x,z) fluorescence intensity (F) profiles of simulated PSFs on-axis (left) and off-axis (right, at the indicated distance d computed on the focal plane in the object space) for the 6.4 mm-long corrected microendoscope with measured microlens profile. C) Same as in (A) for the 8.8 mm-long corrected microendoscope (off-axis d = 67 μm and 92 μm on the focal plane in the object space). D) Same as in (B) for the 8.8 mm-long corrected microendoscope.

      These simulated findings are in contrast with the experimentally measured optical properties of our corrected endoscopes (Figure 3). In other words, these novel simulated results show that experimentally measured profiles of the corrected lenses are incompatible with the experimental measurements of the optical properties of the corrected endoscopes. Therefore, our experimental recording of the lens profile shown in Supplementary Figure 1 of the first submission (now Supplementary Figure 4) should be used only as a coarse measure of the lens shape and cannot be used to precisely compare simulated lens profiles with measured lens profiles.

      How do individual radial profiles compare to the presented means?

      We provide below a modified version of Supplementary Figure 4 (Supplementary Figure 1 in the first submission), where individual profiles measured with the stylus profilometer and the mean profile are displayed for both microendoscope types (Author response image 2). In the manuscript (Supplementary Figure 4), we would suggest to keep showing mean profiles ± standard errors of the mean, as we did in the original submission.

      Author response image 2.

      Characterization of polymeric corrective lens replicas. A) Stylus profilometer measurements were performed along the radius of the corrective polymer microlens replica for the 6.4 mm-long corrected microendoscope. Individual measured profiles (grey solid lines) obtained from n = 3 profile measurements on m = 3 different corrective lens replicas, plus the mean profile (black solid line) are displayed. B) Same as (A) for the 8.8 mm-long microendoscope.

      What is the practical effect of the strong field curvature? Are the edges of the field, which come very close to the lens surface, a practical limitation?

      A first practical effect of the field curvature is that structures at different z coordinates are sampled. The observed field curvature of corrected endoscopes may therefore impact imaging in brain regions characterized by strong axially organized anatomy (e.g., the pyramidal layer of the hippocampus), but would not significantly affect imaging in regions with homogeneous cell density within the axial extension of the field curvature (< 170 µm, see more details below). A second consequence of the field curvature, as the Referee correctly points out, is that cell at the border of the FOV are closer to the front end of the GRIN lens. In measurements of subresolved fluorescent layers (Figure 3A-D), we observed that the field curvature extends in the axial direction to ~ 110 μm and ~170 μm for the 6.4 mm- and the 8.8 mm-long microendoscopes, respectively. Considered that the nominal working distances on the object side of the 6.4 mm- and the 8.8 mm-long microendoscopes were, respectively, 210 μm and 178 μm (Table 3), structures positioned at the very edge of the FOV were ~ 100 μm and ~ 8 μm away from the GRIN front end for the 6.4 mm-long and for the 8.8 mm-long probe, respectively. Previous studies have shown that brain tissue within 50-100 μm from the GRIN front end may show signs of tissue reaction to the implant (Curreli et al. PLOS Biology 2022, Attardo et al. Nature 2015). Therefore, structures at the very edge of the FOV of the 8.8 mm-long endoscopes, but not those at the edge of the 6.4 mm-long endoscopes, may be within the volume showing tissue reaction. We added a paragraph in the text to discuss these points (page 18 lines 10-14).

      The lenses appear to be corrected for monochromatic light; high-performance microscopes are generally achromatic. Is the bandwidth of two-photon excitation sufficient to warrant optimization over multiple wavelengths?

      Thanks for this comment. All optical simulations described in the first submission were performed at a fixed wavelength (λ = 920 nm). Following the Referee’s request, we explored the effect of changing wavelength on the Strehl ratio using new optical simulations. We found that the Strehl ratio remains > 0.8 at least within ± 10 nm from λ = 920 nm (new Supplementary Figure 1A-D, left panels), which covers the limited bandwidth of our femtosecond laser. Moreover, these simulations demonstrate that, on a much wider wavelength range (800 - 1040 nm), high Strehl ratio is obtained, but at different z planes (new Supplementary Figure 1A-D, right panels). This means that the corrective lens is working as expected also for wavelengths which are different from 920 nm, with different wavelengths having the most enlarged FOV located at different working distances. These new results are now described on page 7 (lines 8-10).

      GRIN lenses are often used to access a 3D volume by scanning in z (including in this study). How does the corrective lens affect imaging performance over the 3D field of view?

      The optical simulations we did to design the corrective lenses were performed maximizing aberration correction only in the focal plane of the endoscope. Following the Referee’s comment, we explored the effect of aberration correction outside the focal plane using new optical simulations. In corrected endoscopes, we found that for off-axis rays (radial distance from the optical axis > 40 μm) the Strehl ratio was > 0.8 (Maréchal criterion) in a larger volume compared to uncorrected endoscopes (new Supplementary Figure 2), demonstrating that the aberration correction method developed in this study does extend beyond the focal plane for short distances. For example, at a radial distance of ~ 90 μm from the optical axis, the axial range in which the Strehl ratio was > 0.8 in corrected endoscopes was 28 μm and 19 μm for the 6.4 mm- and the 8.8 mm-long microendoscope, respectively. These new results are now described on page 7 (10-19).

      (4) The in vivo images (Figure 7D) have a less impressive resolution and field than the ex vivo images (Figure 4B), and the reason for this is not clear. Given the difference in performance, how does this compare to an uncorrected endoscope in the same preparation? Is the reduced performance related to uncorrected motion, field curvature, working distance, etc?

      In comparing images in Figure 4B with images shown in Figure 7D, the following points should be considered:

      (1) Figure 4B is a maximum fluorescence intensity projection of multiple axial planes of a z-stack acquired through a thin brain slice (slice thickness: 50 µm) using 8 frame averages for each plane. In contrast, images in Figure 7D are median projection of a t-series acquired on a single plane in the awake mouse at 30 Hz resonant scanning imaging (8 min, 14,400 frames).

      (2) Images of the fixed brain slice in Figure 4B were acquired at 1024 pixels x 1024 pixels resolution, nominal pixel size 0.45 µm/pixel, and with objective NA = 0.50, whereas in vivo images in Figure 7D were acquired at 512 pixels x 512 pixels resolution, nominal pixel size 0.72 - 0.84 µm/pixel, and with objective NA = 0.45.

      (3) In the in vivo preparation (Figure 7D), excitation and emission light travel through > 180 µm of scattering and absorbing brain tissue, reducing spatial resolution and the SNR of the collected fluorescence signal.

      (4) By shifting the sample in the x, y plane, in Figure 4B we could chose a FOV containing homogenously stained cells. x, y shifting and selecting across multiple FOVs was not possible in vivo, as the GRIN lens was cemented on the animal skull.

      (5) Images in Figure 7D were motion corrected, but we cannot exclude that part of the decrease in resolution observed in Figure 7D when compared to images in Figure 4B are due to incomplete correction of motion artifacts.

      For all the reasons listed above, we believe that it is expected to see smaller resolution and contrast in images recorded in vivo (Figure 7D) compared to images acquired in fixed tissue (Figure 4B).

      Regarding the question of how do images from an uncorrected and a corrected endoscopes compared in vivo, we think that this comparison is better performed in fixed tissue (Figure 4) or in simulated calcium data (Figure 5-6), rather than in vivo recordings (Figure 7). In fact, in the brain of living mice motion artifacts, changes in fluorophore expression level, variation in the optical properties of the brain (e.g., the presence of a blood vessel over the FOV) may make the comparison of images acquired with uncorrected and corrected microendoscopes difficult, requiring a large number of animals to cancel out the contributions of these factors. Comparing optical properties in fixed tissue is, in contrast, devoid of these confounding factors. Moreover, the major advantage of quantifying how the optical properties of uncorrected and corrected endoscopes impact on the ability to extract information about neuronal activity in simulated calcium data is that, under simulated conditions, we can count on a known ground truth as reference (e.g., how many neurons are in the FOV, where they are, and which is their electrical activity). This is clearly not possible in the in vivo recordings.

      Regarding Figure 7, there is no analysis of the biological significance of the calcium signals or even a description of where olfactory stimuli were presented.

      We appreciate the Reviewer pointing out the lack of detailed analysis regarding the biological significance of the calcium signals and the presentation of olfactory stimuli in Figure 7. Our initial focus was on demonstrating the effectiveness of the optimized GRIN lenses for imaging deep brain areas like the piriform cortex, with an emphasis on the improved signal-tonoise ratio (SNR) these lenses provide. However, we agree that including more context about the experimental conditions would enhance the manuscript. To address this point, we added a new panel (Figure 7F) showing calcium transients aligned with the onset of olfactory stimulus presentations, which are now indicated by shaded light blue areas. Additionally, we have specified the timing of each stimulus presented in Figure 7E. This revision allows readers to better understand the relationship between the calcium signals and the olfactory stimuli.

      The timescale of jGCaMP8f signals in Figure 7E is uncharacteristically slow for this indicator (compared to Zhang et al 2023 (Nature)), though perhaps this is related to the physiology of these cells or the stimuli.

      Regarding the timescale of the calcium signals observed in Figure 7E, we apologize for the confusion caused by a mislabeling we inserted in the original manuscript. The experiments presented in Figure 7 were conducted using jGCaMP7f, not jGCaMP8f as previously stated (both indicators were used in this study but in separate experiments). We have corrected this error in the Results section (caption of Figure 7D, E). It is important to note that jGCaMP7f has a longer half-decay time compared to jGCaMP8f, which could in part account for the slower decay kinetics observed in our data. Furthermore, the prolonged calcium signals can be attributed to the physiological properties of neurons in the piriform cortex. Upon olfactory stimulation, these neurons often fire multiple action potentials, resulting in extended calcium transients that can last several seconds. This sustained activity has been documented in previous studies, such as Roland et al. (eLife 2017, Figure 1C therein) in anesthetized animals and Wang et al. (Neuron 2020, Figure 1E therein) in awake animals, which report similar durations for calcium signals.

      (5) The claim of unprecedented spatial resolution across the FOV (page 18) is hard to evaluate and is not supported by references to quantitative comparisons. The promises of the method for future studies (pages 18-19) could also be better supported by analysis or experiment, but these are minor and to me, do not detract from the appeal of the work.

      GRIN lens-based imaging of piriform cortex in the awake mouse had already been done in Wang et al., Neuron 2020. The GRIN lens used in that work was NEM-050-50-00920-S-1.5p (GRINTECH, length: 6.4 mm; diameter: 0.5 mm), similar to the one that we used to design the 6.4 mm-long corrected microendoscope. Here we used a microendoscope specifically design to correct off-axis aberrations and enlarge the FOV, in order to maximize the number of neurons recorded with the highest possible spatial resolution, while keeping the tissue invasiveness to the minimum. Following the Referee’s comments, we revised the sentence at page 19 (lines 68 from bottom) as follows:

      “We used long corrected microendoscopes to measure population dynamics in the olfactory cortex of awake head-restrained mice with unprecedented combination of high spatial resolution across the FOV and minimal invasiveness(17)”.

      (6) The text is lengthy and the material is repeated, especially between the introduction and conclusion. Consolidating introductory material to the introduction would avoid diluting interesting points in the discussion.

      We thank the Reviewer for this comment. As suggested, we edited the Introduction and shortened the Discussion.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      In this manuscript, the authors present an approach to correct GRIN lens aberrations, which primarily cause a decrease in signal-to-noise ratio (SNR), particularly in the lateral regions of the field-of-view (FOV), thereby limiting the usable FOV. The authors propose to mitigate these aberrations by designing and fabricating aspherical corrective lenses using ray trace simulations and two-photon lithography, respectively; the corrective lenses are then mounted on the back aperture of the GRIN lens.

      This approach was previously demonstrated by the same lab for GRIN lenses shorter than 4.1 mm (Antonini et al., eLife, 2020). In the current work, the authors extend their method to a new class of GRIN lenses with lengths exceeding 6 mm, enabling access to deeper brain regions as most ventral regions of the mouse brain. Specifically, they designed and characterized corrective lenses for GRIN lenses measuring 6.4 mm and 8.8 mm in length. Finally, they applied these corrected long micro-endoscopes to perform high-precision calcium signal recordings in the olfactory cortex.

      Compared with alternative approaches using adaptive optics, the main strength of this method is that it does not require hardware or software modifications, nor does it limit the system's temporal resolution. The manuscript is well-written, the data are clearly presented, and the experiments convincingly demonstrate the advantages of the corrective lenses.

      The implementation of these long corrected micro-endoscopes, demonstrated here for deep imaging in the mouse olfactory bulb, will also enable deep imaging in larger mammals such as rats or marmosets.

      We thank the Referee for the positive comments on our study. We address the points indicated by the Referee in the “Recommendation to the authors” section below.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This work presents the development, characterization, and use of new thin microendoscopes (500µm diameter) whose accessible field of view has been extended by the addition of a corrective optical element glued to the entrance face. Two micro endoscopes of different lengths (6.4mm and 8.8mm) have been developed, allowing imaging of neuronal activity in brain regions >4mm deep. An alternative solution to increase the field of view could be to add an adaptive optics loop to the microscope to correct the aberrations of the GRIN lens. The solution presented in this paper does not require any modification of the optical microscope and can therefore be easily accessible to any neuroscience laboratory performing optical imaging of neuronal activity.

      Strengths:

      (1) The paper is generally clear and well-written. The scientific approach is well structured and numerous experiments and simulations are presented to evaluate the performance of corrected microendoscopes. In particular, we can highlight several consistent and convincing pieces of evidence for the improved performance of corrected micro endoscopes:

      a) PSFs measured with corrected micro endoscopes 75µm from the centre of the FOV show a significant reduction in optical aberrations compared to PSFs measured with uncorrected micro endoscopes.

      b) Morphological imaging of fixed brain slices shows that optical resolution is maintained over a larger field of view with corrected micro endoscopes compared to uncorrected ones, allowing neuronal processes to be revealed even close to the edge of the FOV.

      c) Using synthetic calcium data, the authors showed that the signals obtained with the corrected microendoscopes have a significantly stronger correlation with the ground truth signals than those obtained with uncorrected microendoscopes.

      (2) There is a strong need for high-quality micro endoscopes to image deep brain regions in vivo. The solution proposed by the authors is simple, efficient, and potentially easy to disseminate within the neuroscience community.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Many points need to be clarified/discussed. Here are a few examples:

      a) It is written in the methods: “The uncorrected microendoscopes were assembled either using different optical elements compared to the corrected ones or were obtained from the corrected

      probes after the mechanical removal of the corrective lens.”

      This is not very clear: the uncorrected microendoscopes are not simply the unmodified GRIN lenses?

      We apologize for not been clear enough on this point. Uncorrected microendoscopes are not simply unmodified GRIN lenses, rather they are GRIN lenses attached to a round glass coverslip (thickness: 100 μm). The glass coverslip was included in ray-trace optical simulations of the uncorrected system and this is the reason why commercial GRIN lenses and corresponding uncorrected microendoscopes have different working distances, as reported in Tables 2-3. To make the text clearer, we added the following sentence at page 27 (last 4 lines):

      “To evaluate the impact of corrective microlenses on the optical performance of GRIN-based microendoscopes, we also simulated uncorrected microendoscopes composed of the same optical elements of corrected probes (glass coverslip and GRIN rod), but in the absence of the corrective microlens”.

      b) In the results of the simulation of neuronal activity (Figure 5A, for example), the neurons in the center of the FOV have a very large diameter (of about 30µm). This should be discussed.

      Thanks for this comment. In synthetic calcium imaging t-series, cell radii were randomly sampled from a Gaussian distribution with mean = 10 µm and standard deviation (SD) = 3 µm. Both values were estimated from the literature (ref. no. 28: Suzuki & Bekkers, Journal of Neuroscience, 2011) as described in the Methods (page 35). In the image shown in Figure 5A, neurons near to the center of the FOV have radius of ~ 20 µm corresponding to the right tail of the distribution (mean + 3SD = 19 µm). It is also important to note that, for corrected microendoscopes, neurons in the central portion of the FOV appear larger than cells located near the edges of the FOV, because the magnification depends on the distance from the optical axis (see Figure 3E, F) and near the center the magnification is > 1 for both microendoscope types.

      Also, why is the optical resolution so low on these images?

      Images shown in Figure 5 are median fluorescence intensity projections of 5 minute-long simulated t-series. Simulated calcium data were generated with pixel size 0.8 μm/pixel and frame rate 30 Hz, similarly to in vivo recordings. In the simulations, pixels not belonging to any cell soma were assigned a value of background fluorescence randomly sampled from a normal distribution with mean and standard deviation estimated from experimental data, as described in the Methods section (page 37). To simulate activity, the mean spiking rate of neurons was set to 0.3 Hz, thus in a large fraction of frames neurons do not show calcium transients. Therefore, the median fluorescence intensity value of somata will be close to their baseline fluorescence value (_F_0). Since in simulations F0 values (~ 45-80 a.u.) were not much higher than the background fluorescence level (~ 45 a.u.), this may generate the appearance of low contrast image in Figure 5A. Finally, we suspect that PDF rendering also contributed to degrade the quality of those images. We will now submit high resolution images alongside the PDF file.

      c) It seems that we can't see the same neurons on the left and right panels of Figure 5D. This should be discussed.

      The Referee is correct. When we intersected the simulated 3D volume of ground truth neurons with the focal surface of microendoscopes, the center of the FOV for the 8.8 mmlong corrected microendoscope was located at a larger depth than the FOV of the 8.8 mm uncorrected microendoscope. This effect was due to the larger field curvature of corrected 8.8 mmlong endoscopes compared to 8.8 mm-long uncorrected endoscopes. This is the reason why different neurons were displayed for uncorrected and corrected endoscopes in Figure 5D. We added this explanation in the text at page 37 (lines 1-4). The text reads:

      “Due to the stronger field curvature of the 8.8 mm-long corrected microendoscope (Figure 1C) compared to 8.8 mm-long uncorrected microendoscopes, the center of the corrected imaging focal surface resulted at a larger depth in the simulated volume compared to the center of the uncorrected focal surface(s). Therefore, different simulated neurons were sampled in the two cases”.

      d) It is not very clear to me why in Figure 6A, F the fraction of adjacent cell pairs that are more correlated than expected increases as a function of the threshold on peak SNR. The authors showed in Supplementary Figure 3B that the mean purity index increases as a function of the threshold on peak SNR for all micro endoscopes. Therefore, I would have expected the correlation between adjacent cells to decrease as a function of the threshold on peak SNR. Similarly, the mean purity index for the corrected short microendoscope is close to 1 for high thresholds on peak SNR: therefore, I would have expected the fraction of adjacent cell pairs that are more correlated than expected to be close to 0 under these conditions. It would be interesting to clarify these points.

      Thanks for raising this point. We defined the fraction of adjacent cell pairs more correlated than expected as the number of adjacent cell pairs more correlated than expected divided by the number of adjacent cell pairs. The reason why this fraction raises as a function of the SNR threshold is shown in Supplementary Figure 2 in the first submission (now Supplementary Figure 5). There, we separately plotted the number of adjacent cell pairs more correlated than expected (numerator) and the number of adjacent cell pairs (denominator) as a function of the SNR threshold. For both microendoscope types, we observed that the denominator more rapidly decreased with peak SNR threshold than the numerator. Therefore, the fraction of adjacent cell pairs more correlated than expected increases with the peak SNR threshold.

      To understand why the denominator decreases with SNR threshold, it should be considered that, due to the deterioration of spatial resolution and attenuation of fluorescent signal collection as a function of the radial distance from the optical axis (see for example fluorescent film profiles in Figure 3A, C), increasing the threshold on the peak SNR of extracted calcium traces implies limiting cell detection to those cells located within smaller distance from the center of the FOV. This information is shown in Figure 5C, F.

      In the manuscript text, this point is discussed at page 12 (lines 1-3 from bottom) and page 13 (lines 1-4):

      “The fraction of pairs of adjacent cells (out of the total number of adjacent pairs) whose activity correlated significantly more than expected increased as a function of the SNR threshold for corrected and uncorrected microendoscopes of both lengths (Fig. 6A, F). This effect was due to a larger decrease of the total number of pairs of adjacent cells as a function of the SNR threshold compared to the decrease in the number of pairs of adjacent cells whose activity was more correlated than expected (Supplementary Figure 5)”.

      e) Figures 6C, H: I think it would be fairer to compare the uncorrected and corrected endomicroscopes using the same effective FOV.

      To address the Reviewer’s concern, we repeated the linear regression of purity index as a function of the radial distance using the same range of radial distances for the uncorrected and corrected case of both microendoscope types. Below, we provide an updated version of Figure 6C, H for the referee’s perusal. Please note that the maximum value displayed on the x-axis of both graphs is now corresponding to the minimum value between the two maximum radial distance values obtained in the uncorrected and corrected case (maximum radial distance displayed: 151.6 µm and 142.1 μm for the 6.4 mm- and the 8.8 mm-long GRIN rod, respectively). Using the same effective FOV, we found that the purity index drops significantly more rapidly with the radial distance for uncorrected microendoscopes compared to the corrected ones, similarly to what observed in the original version of Figure 6. The values of the linear regression parameters and statistical significance of the difference between the slopes in the uncorrected and corrected cases are stated in the Author response image 3 caption below for both microendoscope types. In the manuscript, we would suggest to keep showing data corresponding to all detected cells, as we did in the original submission.

      Author response image 3.

      Linear regression of purity index as a function of the radial distance. A) Purity index of extracted traces with peak SNR > 10 was estimated using a GLM of ground truth source contributions and plotted as a function of the radial distance of cell identities from the center of the FOV for n = 13 simulated experiments with the 6.4 mm-long uncorrected (red) and corrected (blue) microendoscope. Black lines represent the linear regression of data ± 95% confidence intervals (shaded colored areas). Maximum value of radial distance displayed: 151.6 μm. Slopes ± standard error (s.e.): uncorrected, (-0.0015 ± 0.0002) µm-1; corrected, (-0.0006 ± 0.0001) μm-1. Uncorrected, n = 991; corrected, n = 1156. Statistical comparison of slopes, p < 10<sup>-10</sup>, permutation test. B) Same as (A) for n = 15 simulated experiments with the 8.8 mm-long uncorrected and corrected microendoscope. Maximum value of radial distance displayed: 142.1 μm. Slopes ± s.e.: uncorrected, (-0.0014 ± 0.0003) μm-1; corrected, (-0.0010 ± 0.0002) µm-1. Uncorrected, n = 718; corrected, n = 1328. Statistical comparison of slopes, p = 0.0082, permutation test.

      f) Figure 7E: Many calcium transients have a strange shape, with a very fast decay following a plateau or a slower decay. Is this the result of motion artefacts or analysis artefacts?

      Thank you for raising this point about the unusual shapes of the calcium transients in Figure 7E. The observed rapid decay following a plateau or a slower decay is indeed a result of how the data were presented in the original submission. Our experimental protocol consisted of 22 s-long trials with an inter-trial interval of 10 s (see Methods section, page 44). In the original figure, data from multiple trials were concatenated, which led to artefactual time courses and apparent discontinuities in the calcium signals. To resolve this issue, we revised Figure 7E to accurately represent individual concatenated trials. We also added a new panel (please see new Figure 7F) showing examples of single cell calcium responses in individual trials without concatenation, with annotations indicating the timing and identity of presented olfactory stimuli.

      Also, the duration of many calcium transients seems to be long (several seconds) for GCaMP8f. These points should be discussed.

      Author response: regarding the timescale of the calcium signals observed in Figure 7E, we apologize for the confusion caused by a mislabeling we inserted in the manuscript. The experiments presented in Figure 7 were conducted using jGCaMP7f, not jGCaMP8f as previously stated (both indicators were used in this study, but in separate experiments). We have corrected this error in the Results section (caption of Figure 7D, E). It is important to note that jGCaMP7f has a longer half-decay time compared to jGCaMP8f, which could in part account for the slower decay kinetics observed in our data. Furthermore, the prolonged calcium signals can be attributed to the physiological properties of neurons in the piriform cortex. Upon olfactory stimulation, these neurons often fire multiple action potentials, resulting in extended calcium transients that can last several seconds. This sustained activity has been documented in previous studies, such as Roland et al. (eLife 2017, Figure 1C therein) in anesthetized animals and Wang et al. (Neuron 2020, Figure 1E therein) in awake animals, which report similar durations for calcium signals. We cite these references in the text. We believe that these revisions and clarifications address the Reviewer's concern and enhance the overall clarity of our manuscript.

      g) The authors do not mention the influence of the neuropil on their data. Did they subtract the neuropil's contribution to the signals from the somata? It is known from the literature that the presence of the neuropil creates artificial correlations between neurons, which decrease with the distance between the neurons (Grødem, S., Nymoen, I., Vatne, G.H. et al. An updated suite of viral vectors for in vivo calcium imaging using intracerebral and retro-orbital injections in male mice. Nat Commun 14, 608 (2023). https://doi.org/10.1038/s41467-023-363243; Keemink SW, Lowe SC, Pakan JMP, Dylda E, van Rossum MCW, Rochefort NL. FISSA: A neuropil decontamination toolbox for calcium imaging signals. Sci Rep. 2018 Feb 22;8(1):3493.

      doi: 10.1038/s41598-018-21640-2. PMID: 29472547; PMCID: PMC5823956)

      This point should be addressed.

      We apologize for not been clear enough in our previous version of the manuscript. The neuropil was subtracted from calcium traces both in simulated and experimental data. Please note that instead of using the term “neuropil”, we used the word “background”. We decided to use the more general term “background” because it also applies to the case of synthetic calcium tseries, where neurons were modeled as spheres devoid of processes. The background subtraction is described in the Methods on page 39:

      F(t) was computed frame-by-frame as the difference between the average signal of pixels in each ROI and the background signal. The background was calculated as the average signal of pixels that: i) did not belong to any bounding box; ii) had intensity values higher than the mean noise value measured in pixels located at the corners of the rectangular image, which do not belong to the circular FOV of the microendoscope; iii) had intensity values lower than the maximum value of pixels within the boxes”.

      h) Also, what are the expected correlations between neurons in the pyriform cortex? Are there measurements in the literature with which the authors could compare their data?

      We appreciate the reviewer's interest in the correlations between neurons in the piriform cortex. The overall low correlations between piriform neurons we observed (Figure 8) are consistent with a published study describing ‘near-zero noise correlations during odor inhalation’ in the anterior piriform cortex of rats, based on extracellular recordings (Miura et al., Neuron 2013). However, to the best of our knowledge, measurements directly comparable to ours have not been described in the literature. Recent analyses of the correlations between piriform neurons were restricted to odor exposure windows, with the goal to quantify odor-specific activation patterns (e.g. Roland et al., eLife 2017; Bolding et al., eLife 2017, Pashkovski et al., Nature 2020; Wang et al., Neuron 2020). Here, we used correlation analyses to characterize the technical advancement of the optimized GRIN lens-based endoscopes. We showed that correlations of pairs of adjacent neurons were independent from radial distance (Figure 8B), highlighting homogeneous spatial resolution in the field of view.

      (2) The way the data is presented doesn't always make it easy to compare the performance of corrected and uncorrected lenses. Here are two examples:

      a) In Figures 4 to 6, it would be easier to compare the FOVs of corrected and uncorrected lenses if the scale bars (at the centre of the FOV) were identical. In this way, the neurons at the centre of the FOV would appear the same size in the two images, and the distances between the neurons at the centre of the FOV would appear similar. Here, the scale bar is significantly larger for the corrected lenses, which may give the illusion of a larger effective FOV.

      We appreciate the Referee’s comment. Below, we explain why we believe that the way we currently present imaging data in the manuscript is preferable:

      (1) current figures show images of the acquired FOV as they are recorded from the microscope (raw data), without rescaling. In this way, we exactly show what potential users will obtain when using a corrected microendoscope.

      (2) In the current version of the figures, the fact that the pixel size is not homogeneous across the FOV, nor equal between uncorrected and corrected microendoscopes, is initially shown in Figure 3E, F and then explicitly stated throughout the manuscript when images acquired with a corrected microendoscope are shown.

      (3) Rescaling images acquired with the corrected endoscopes gives the impression that the acquisition parameters were different between acquisitions with the corrected and uncorrected microendoscopes, which was not the case.

      Importantly, the larger FOV of the corrected microendoscope, which is one of the important technological achievements presented in this study, can be appreciated in the images regardless of the presentation format.

      b) In Figures 3A-D it would be more informative to plot the distances in microns rather than pixels. This would also allow a better comparison of the micro endoscopes (as the pixel sizes seem to be different for the corrected and uncorrected micro endoscopes).

      The Referee is correct that the pixel size is different between the corrected and uncorrected probes. This is because of the different magnification factor introduced by the corrective microlens, as described in Figure 3E, F. The rationale for showing images in Figure 3AD in pixels rather than microns is the following:

      (1) Optical simulations in Figure 1 suggest that a corrective optical element is effective in compensating for some of the optical aberrations in GRIN microendoscopes.

      (2) After fabricating the corrective optical element (Figure 2), in Figure 3A-D we conduct a preliminary analysis of the effect of the corrective optical element on the optical properties of the GRIN lens. We observed that the microfabricated optical element corrected for some aberrations (e.g., astigmatism), but also that the microfabricated optical element was characterized by significant field curvature. This can be appreciated showing distances in pixels.

      (3) The observed field curvature and the aspherical profile of the corrected lens prompted us to characterize the magnification factor of the corrected endoscopes as a function of the radial distance. We found that the magnification factor changed as a function of the radial distance (Figure 3E-F) and that pixel size was different between uncorrected and corrected endoscopes. We also observed that, in corrected endoscopes, pixel size was a function of the radial distance (Figure 3E-F).

      (4) Once all of the above was established and quantified, we assigned precise pixel size to images of uncorrected and corrected endoscopes and we show all following images of the study (Figure 3G on) using a micron (rather than pixel) scale.

      (3) There seems to be a discrepancy between the performance of the long lenses (8.8 mm) in the different experiments, which should be discussed in the article. For example, the results in Figure 4 show a considerable enlargement of the FOV, whereas the results in Figure 6 show a very moderate enlargement of the distance at which the person's correlation with the first ground truth emitter starts to drop.

      Thanks for raising this point and helping us clarifying data presentation. Images in Figure 4B are average z-projections of z-stacks acquired through a mouse fixed brain slice and they were taken with the purpose of showing all the neurons that could be visualized from the same sample using an uncorrected and a corrected microendoscope. In Figure 4B, all illuminated neurons are visible regardless of whether they were imaged with high axial resolution (e.g., < 10 µm as defined in Figure 3J) or poor axial resolution. In contrast, in Figure 6J we evaluated the correlation between the calcium trace extracted from a given ROI and the real activity trace of the first simulated ground truth emitter for that specific ROI. The moderate increase in the correlation for the corrected microendoscope compared to the uncorrected microendoscope (Figure 6J) is consistent with the moderate improvement in the axial resolution of the corrected probe compared to the uncorrected probe at intermediate radial distances (60-100 µm from the optical axis, see Figure 3J). We added a paragraph in the Results section (page 14, lines 8-18) to summarize the points described above.

      a) There is also a significant discrepancy between measured and simulated optical performance, which is not discussed. Optical simulations (Figure 1) show that the useful FOV (defined as the radius for which the size of the PSF along the optical axis remains below 10µm) should be at least 90µm for the corrected microendoscopes of both lengths. However, for the long microendoscopes, Figure 3J shows that the axial resolution at 90µm is 17µm. It would be interesting to discuss the origin of this discrepancy: does it depend on the microendoscope used?

      As the Reviewer correctly pointed out, the size of simulated PSFs at a given radial distance (e.g., 90 µm) tends to be generally smaller than that of the experimentally measured PSFs. This might be due to multiple reasons:

      (1) simulated PSFs are excitation PSFs, i.e. they describe the intensity spatial distribution of focused excitation light. On the contrary, measured PSFs result from the excitation and emission process, thus they are also affected by aberrations of light emitted by fluorescent beads and collected by the microscope.

      (2) in the optical simulations, the Zemax file of the GRIN lenses contained first-order aberrations. High-order aberrations were therefore not included in simulated PSFs.

      (3) intrinsic variability of experimental measurements (e.g., intrinsic variability of the fabrication process, alignment of the microendoscope to the optical axis of the microscope, the distance between the GRIN back end and the objective…) are not considered in the simulations.

      We added a paragraph in the Discussion section (page 17, lines 9-18) summarizing the abovementioned points.

      Are there inaccuracies in the construction of the aspheric corrective lens or in the assembly with the GRIN lens? If there is variability between different lenses, how are the lenses selected for imaging experiments?

      The fabrication yield, i.e. the yield of generating the corrective lenses, using molding was ~ 90% (N > 30 molded lenses). The main limitation of this procedure was the formation of air bubbles between the mold negative and the glass coverslip. Molded lenses were visually inspected with the stereoscope and, in case of air bubble formation, they were discarded.

      The assembly yield, i.e. the yield of correct positioning of the GRIN lens with respect to the coverslip, was 100 % (N = 27 endoscopes).

      We added this information in the Methods at page 29 (lines 1-12), as follows:

      “After UV curing, the microlens was visually inspected at the stereomicroscope. In case of formation of air bubbles, the microlens was discarded (yield of the molding procedure: ~ 90 %, N > 30 molded lenses). The coverslip with the attached corrective lens was sealed to a customized metal or plastic support ring of appropriate diameter (Fig. 2C). The support ring, the coverslip and the aspherical lens formed the upper part of the corrected microendoscope, to be subsequently coupled to the proper GRIN rod (Table 2) using a custom-built opto-mechanical stage and NOA63 (Fig. 2C) 7. The GRIN rod was positioned perpendicularly to the glass coverslip, on the other side of the coverslip compared to the corrective lens, and aligned to the aspherical lens perimeter (Fig. 2C) under the guidance of a wide field microscope equipped with a camera. The yield of the assembly procedure for the probes used in this work was 100 % (N = 27 endoscopes). For further details on the assembly of corrected microendoscope see(7)”.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Page 4, what is meant by 'ad-hoc" in describing software control?

      With “ad-hoc” we meant “specifically designed”. We revised the text to make this clear.

      (2) It was hard to tell how the PSF was modeled for the simulations (especially on page 34, describing the two spherical shells of the astigmatic PSF and ellipsoids modeled along them). Images or especially videos that show the modeling would make this easier to follow.

      Simulated calcium t-series were generated following previous work by our group (Antonini et al., eLife 2020), as stated in the Methods on page 37 (line 5). In Figure 4A of Antonini et al. eLife 2020, we provided a schematic to visually describe the procedure of simulated data generation. In the present paper, we decided not to include a similar drawing and cite the eLife 2020 article to avoid redundancy.

      (3) Some math symbols are missing from the methods in my version of the text (page 36/37).

      We apologize for the inconvenience. This issue arose in the PDF conversion of our Word document and we did not spot it at the time of submission. We will now make sure the PDF version of our manuscript correctly reports symbols and equations.

      (4) The Z extent of stacks (i.e. number of steps) used to generate images in Figure 4 is missing.

      We thank the Reviewer for the comment and we now revised the caption of Figure 4 and the Methods section as follows:

      “Figure 4. Aberration correction in long GRIN lens-based microendoscopes enables highresolution imaging of biological structures over enlarged FOVs. A) jGCaMP7f-stained neurons in a fixed mouse brain slice were imaged using 2PLSM (λexc = 920 nm) through an uncorrected (left) and a corrected (right) microendoscope based on the 6.4 mm-long GRIN rod. Images are maximum fluorescence intensity (F) projections of a z-stack acquired with a 5 μm step size. Number of steps: 32 and 29 for uncorrected and corrected microendoscope, respectively. Scale bars: 50 μm. Left: the scale applies to the entire FOV. Right, the scale bar refers only to the center of the FOV; off-axis scale bar at any radial distance (x and y axes) is locally determined multiplying the length of the drawn scale bar on-axis by the corresponding normalized magnification factor shown in the horizontal color-coded bar placed below the image (see also Fig. 3, Supplementary Table 3, and Materials and Methods for more details). B) Same results for the microendoscope based on the 8.8 mm-long GRIN rod. Number of steps: 23 and 31 for uncorrected and corrected microendoscope, respectively”.

      We also modified the text in the Methods (page 35, lines 1-2):

      “(1024 pixels x 1024 pixels resolution; nominal pixel size: 0.45 µm/pixel; axial step: 5 µm; number of axial steps: 23-32; frame averaging = 8)”.

      (5) Overall, the text is wordy and a bit repetitive and could be cut down significantly in length without loss of clarity. This is true throughout, but especially when comparing the introduction and discussion.

      We edited the text (Discussion and Introduction), as suggested by the Reviewer.

      (6) Although I don't think it's necessary, I would advise including comparison data with an uncorrected endoscope in the same in vivo preparation.

      We thank the Referee for the suggestion. Below, we list the reasons why we decided not to perform the comparison between the uncorrected and corrected endoscopes in the in vivo preparation:

      (1) We believe that the comparison between uncorrected and corrected endoscopes is better performed in fixed tissue (Figure 4) or in simulated calcium data (Figure 5-6), rather than in vivo recordings (Figure 7). In fact, in the brain of living mice motion artifacts, changes in fluorophore expression level, variation in the optical properties of the brain (e.g., the presence of a blood vessel over the FOV) may make the comparison of images acquired with uncorrected and corrected microendoscopes difficult, requiring a large number of animals to cancel out the contributions of all these factors. Comparing optical properties in fixed tissue is, in contrast, devoid of these confounding factors.

      (2) A major advantage of quantifying how the optical properties of uncorrected and corrected endoscope impact on the ability to extract information about neuronal activity in simulated calcium data is that, under simulated conditions, we can count on a known ground truth as reference (e.g., how many neurons are in the FOV, where they are, and which is their electrical activity). This is clearly not possible under in vivo conditions.

      (3) The proposed experiment requires to perform imaging in the awake mouse with a corrected microendoscope, then anesthetize the animal to carefully remove the corrective microlens using forceps, and finally repeat the optical recordings in awake mice with the uncorrected microendoscope. Although this is feasible (we performed the proposed experiment in Antonini et al. eLife 2020 using a 4.1 mm-long microendoscope), the yield of success of these experiments is low. The low yield is due to the fact that the mechanical force applied on top of the microendoscope to remove the corrective microlens may induce movement of the GRIN lens inside the brain, both in vertical and horizontal directions. This can randomly result in change of the focal plane, death or damage of the cells, tissue inflammation, and bleeding. From our own experience, the number of animals used for this experiment is expected to be high.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Below, I provide a few minor corrections and suggestions for the authors to consider before final submission.

      (1) Page 5: when referring to Table 1 maybe add "Table 1 and Methods".

      Following the Reviewer’s comment, we revised the text at page 6 (lines 4-5 from bottom) as follows:

      “(see Supplementary Table 1 and Materials and Methods for details on simulation parameters)”.

      (2) Page 8: "We set a threshold of 10 µm on the axial resolution to define the radius of the effective FOV (corresponding to the black triangles in Fig. 3I, J) in uncorrected and corrected microendoscopes. We observed an enlargement of the effective FOV area of 4.7 times and 2.3 times for the 6.4 mm-long micro endoscope and the 8.8 mm-long micro endoscope, respectively (Table 1). These findings were in agreement with the results of the ray-trace simulations (Figure 1) and the measurement of the subresolved fluorescence layers (Figure 3AD)." I could not find the information given in this paragraph, specifically:

      a) Upon examining the black triangles in Figure 3I and J, the enlargement of the effective FOV does not appear to be 4.7 and 2.3 times.

      In Figure 3I, J, black triangles mark the intersections between the curves fitting the data and the threshold of 10 µm on the axial resolution. The values on the x-axis corresponding to the intersections (Table 1, “Effective FOV radius”) represent the estimated radius of the effective FOV of the probes, i.e. the radius within which the microendoscope has spatial resolution below the threshold of 10 μm. The ratios of the effective FOV radii are 2.17 and 1.53 for the 6.4 mm- and the 8.8 mm-long microendoscope, respectively, which correspond to 4.7 and 2.3 times larger FOV (Table 1). To make this point clearer, we modified the indicated sentence as follows (page 10, lines 3-11 from bottom):

      “We set a threshold of 10 µm on the axial resolution to define the radius of the effective FOV (corresponding to the black triangles in Fig. 3I, J) in uncorrected and corrected microendoscopes. We observed a relative increase of the effective FOV radius of 2.17 and 1.53 for the 6.4 mm- and the 8.8 mm-long microendoscope, respectively (Table 1). This corresponded to an enlargement of the effective FOV area of 4.7 times and 2.3 times for the 6.4 mm-long microendoscope and the 8.8

      mm-long microendoscope, respectively (Table 1). These findings were in agreement with the results of the ray-trace simulations (Figure 1) and the measurement of the subresolved fluorescence layers (Figure 3A-D)."

      b) I do not understand how the enlargements in Figure 3I and J align with the ray trace simulations in Figure 1, indicating an enlargement of 5.4 and 5.6.

      In Figure 1C, E of the first submission we showed the Strehl ratio of focal spots focalized after the microendoscope, in the object plane, as a function of radial distance from the optical axis of focal spots focalized in the focal plane at the back end of the GRIN rod (“Objective focal plane” in Figure 1A, B), before the light has traveled along the GRIN lens. After reading the Referee’s comment, we realized this choice does not facilitate the comparison between Figure 1 and Figure 3I, J. We therefore decided to modify Figure 1C, E by showing the Strehl ratio of focal spots focalized after the microendoscope as a function of their radial distance from the optical axis in the objet plane (where the Strehl ratio is computed), after the light has traveled through the GRIN lens (radial distances are still computed on a plane, not along the curved focal surface represented by the “imaging plane” in Figure 1 A, B). Computing radial distances in the object space, we found that the relative increase in the radius of the FOV due to the correction of aberrations was 3.50 and 3.35 for the 6.4 mm- and the 8.8 mm-long microendoscope, respectively. We also revised the manuscript text accordingly (page 7, lines 6-8):

      “The simulated increase in the radius of the diffraction-limited FOV was 3.50 times and 3.35 times for the 6.4 mm-long and 8.8 mm-long probe, respectively (Fig. 1C, E)”. We believe this change should facilitate the comparison of the data presented in Figure 1 and Figure 3.

      Moreover, in comparing results in Figure 1 and Figure 3, it is important to keep in mind that:

      (1) the definitions of the effective FOV radius were different in simulations (Figure 1) and real measurements (Figure 3). In simulations, we considered a theoretical criterion (Maréchal criterion) and set the lower threshold for a diffraction-limited FOV to a Strehl ratio value of 0.8. In real measures, the effective FOV radius obtained from fluorescent bead measurements was defined based on the empirical criterion of setting the upper threshold for the axial resolution to 10 µm.

      (2) the Zemax file of the GRIN lenses contained low-order aberrations and not high-order aberrations.

      (3) the small variability in some of the experimental parameters (e.g., the distance between the GRIN back end and the focusing objective) were not reflected in the simulations.

      Given the reasons listed above, it is expected that the prediction of the simulations do not perfectly match the experimental measurements and tend to predict larger improvements of aberration correction than the experimentally measured ones.

      c) Finally, how can the enlargement in Figure 3I be compared to the measurements of the sub-resolved fluorescence layers in Figures 3A-D? Could the authors please clarify these points?

      When comparing measurements of subresolved fluorescent films and beads it is important to keep in mind that the two measures have different purposes and spatial resolution. We used subresolved fluorescent films to visualize the shape and extent of the focal surface of microendoscopes in a continuous way along the radial dimension (in contrast to bead measurements that are quantized in space). This approach comes at the cost of spatial resolution, as we are using fluorescent layers, which are subresolved in the axial but not in the radial dimension. Therefore, fluorescent film profiles are not used in our study to extract relevant quantitative information about effective FOV enlargement or spatial resolution of corrected microendoscopes. In contrast, to quantitatively characterize axial and lateral resolutions we used measurements of 100 nm-diameter fluorescent beads (therefore subresolved in the x, y, and z dimensions) located at different radial distances from the center of the FOV, using a much smaller nominal pixel size compared to the fluorescent films (beads, lateral resolution: 0.049 µm/pixel, axial resolution: 0.5 µm/pixel; films, lateral resolution: 1.73 µm/pixel, axial resolution: 2 µm/pixel).

      (3) On page 15, the statement "significantly enlarge the FOV" should be more specific by providing the actual values for the increase. It would also be good to mention that this is not a xy lateral increase; rather, as one moves further from the center, more of the imaged cells belong to axially different planes.

      The values of the experimentally determined FOV enlargements (4.7 times and 2.3 times for 6.4 mm- and 8.8 mm-long microendoscope, respectively) are provided in Table 1 and are now referenced on page 10. Following the Referee’s request, we added the following sentence in the discussion (page 18, lines 10-14) to underline that the extended FOV samples on different axial positions because of the field curvature effect:

      “It must be considered, however, that the extended FOV achieved by our aberration correction method was characterized by a curved focal plane. Therefore, cells located in different radial positions within the image were located at different axial positions and cells at the border of the FOV were closer to the front end of the microendoscope”.

      (4) On page 36, most of the formulas appear to be corrupted. This may have occurred during the conversion to the merged PDF. Please verify this and check for similar problems in other equations throughout the text as well.

      We apologize for the inconvenience. This issue arose in the PDF conversion of our Word document and we did not spot it upon submission. We will now make sure the PDF version of our manuscript correctly reports symbols and equations.

      (5) In the discussion, the authors could potentially add comments on how the verified performance of the corrective lenses depends on the wavelength and mention the range within which the wavelength can be changed without the need to redesign a new corrective lens.

      Following this comments and those of other Reviewers, we explored the effect of changing wavelength on the Strehl ratio using new Zemax simulations. We found that the Strehl ratio remains > 0.8 within ± at least 10 nm from λ = 920 nm (new Supplementary Figure 1A-D, left panels), which covers the limited bandwidth of our femtosecond laser. Moreover, these simulations demonstrate that, on a much wider wavelength range (800 - 1040 nm), high Strehl ratio is obtained but at different z planes (new Supplementary Figure 1A-D, right panels). These new results are now described on page 7 (lines 8-10).

      (6) Also, they could discuss if and how the corrective lens could be integrated into fiberscopes for freely moving experiments.

      Following the Referee’s suggestion, we added a short text in the Discussion (page 21, lines 4-7 from bottom). It reads:

      “Another advantage of long corrected microendoscopes described here over adaptive optics approaches is the possibility to couple corrected microendoscopes with portable 2P microscopes(42-44), allowing high resolution functional imaging of deep brain circuits on an enlarged FOV during naturalistic behavior in freely moving mice”.

      (7) Finally, since the main advantage of this approach is its simplicity, the authors should also comment on or outline the steps to follow for potential users who are interested in using the corrective lenses in their systems.

      Thanks for this comment. The Materials and Methods section of this study and that of Antonini et al. eLife 2020 describe in details the experimental steps necessary to reproduce corrective lenses and apply them to their experimental configuration.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Suggestions for improved or additional experiments, data, or analyses, and Recommendations for improving the writing and presentation:

      See Public Review.

      Please see our point-by-point response above.

      (2) Minor corrections on text and figures: a) Figure 6A: is the fraction of cells expressed in %?

      Author response: yes, that is correct. Thank you for spotting it. We added the “%” symbol to the y label.

      b) Figurer 8A, left: The second line is blue and not red dashed. In addition, it could be interesting to also show a line corresponding to the 0 value.

      Thank you for the suggestions. We modified Figure 8 according to the Referee’s comments.

      c) Some parts of equation (1) and some variables in the Material and Methods section are missing

      We apologize for the inconvenience. This issue arose in the PDF conversion of our Word document and we did not spot it upon submission. We will now make sure the PDF version of our manuscript correctly reports symbols and equations.

      d) In the methods, the authors mention a calibration ruler with ticks spaced every 10 µm along two orthogonal directions and refer to the following product: 4-dot calibration slide, Cat. No. 1101002300142, Motic, Hong Kong. However, this product does not seem to correspond to a calibration ruler.

      We double check. The catalog number 1101002300142 is correct and product details can be found at the following link:

      https://moticmicroscopes.com/products/calibration-slide-4-dots-1101002300142?srsltid=AfmBOorGYx9PcXtAlIMmSs_tEpxS4nX21qIcV8Kfn4qGwizQK3LYOQn3

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this paper, Manley and Vaziri investigate whole-brain neural activity underlying behavioural variability in zebrafish larvae. They combine whole brain (single cell level) calcium imaging during the presentation of visual stimuli, triggering either approach or avoidance, and carry out whole brain population analyses to identify whole brain population patterns responsible for behavioural variability. They show that similar visual inputs can trigger large variability in behavioural responses. Though visual neurons are also variable across trials, they demonstrate that this neural variability does not degrade population stimulus decodability. Instead, they find that the neural variability across trials is in orthogonal population dimensions to stimulus encoding and is correlated with motor output (e.g. tail vigor). They then show that behavioural variability across trials is largely captured by a brain-wide population state prior to the trial beginning, which biases choice - especially on ambiguous stimulus trials. This study suggests that parts of stimulus-driven behaviour can be captured by brain-wide population states that bias choice, independently of stimulus encoding.

      Strengths:

      -The strength of the paper principally resides in the whole brain cellular level imaging in a well-known but variable behaviour.

      - The analyses are reasonable and largely answer the questions the authors ask.

      - Overall the conclusions are well warranted.

      Weaknesses:

      A more in-depth exploration of some of the findings could be provided, such as:

      - Given that thousands of neurons are recorded across the brain a more detailed parcelation of where the neurons contribute to different population coding dimensions would be useful to better understand the circuits involved in different computations.

      We thank the reviewer for noting the strengths of our study and agree that these findings have raised a number of additional avenues which we intend to explore in depth in future studies. In response to the reviewer’s comment above, we have added a number of additional figure panels (new Figures S1E, S3F-G, 4I(i), 4K(i), and S5F-G) and updated panels (Figures 4I(ii) and 4K(ii) in the revised manuscript) to show a more detailed parcellation of the visually-evoked neurons, noise modes, turn direction bias population, and responsiveness bias population. To do so. we have aligned our recordings to the Z-Brain atlas (Randlett et al., 2015) as shown in new Figure S1E. In addition, we provided a more detailed parcellation of the neuronal ensembles by providing projections of the full 3D volume along the xy and yz axes, in addition to the unregistered xy projection shown in Figures 4H and 4J in the revised manuscript. We also found that the distribution of neurons across our huc:h2b-gcamp6s recordings is very similar to the distribution of labeling in the huc:h2b-rfp reference image from the Z-Brain atlas (Figure S1E), which further supports our whole-brain imaging results.

      Overall, we find that this more detailed quantification and visualization is consistent with our interpretations. In particular, we show that the optimal visual decoding population (w<sub>opt</sub>) and the largest noise mode (e1) are localized to the midbrain (Figures S3F-G). This is expected, as in Figure 3 we first extracted a low-dimensional subspace of whole-brain neural activity that optimally preserved visual information. Additionally, we provide new evidence that the populations correlated with the turn bias and responsiveness bias are distributed throughout the brain, including a relatively dense localization to the cerebellum, telencephalon, and dorsal diencephalon (habenula, new Figures 4H-K and S5F-G).

      - Given that the behaviour on average can be predicted by stimulus type, how does the stimulus override the brain-wide choice bias on some trials? In other words, a better link between the findings in Figures 2 and 3 would be useful for better understanding how the behaviour ultimately arises.

      We agree with the reviewer that one of the most fundamental questions that this study has raised is how the identified neuronal populations predictive of decision variables (which we describe as an internal “bias”) interact with the well-studied, visually-evoked circuitry. A major limitation of our study is that the slow dynamics of the NL-GCaMP6s prevent clearly distinguishing any potential difference in the onset time of various neurons during the short trials, which might provide clues into which neurons drive versus later reflect the motor output. However, given that these ensembles were also found to be correlated with spontaneous turns, our hypothesis is that these populations reflect brain-wide drives that enable efficient exploration of the local environment (Dunn et al. 2016, doi.org/10.7554/eLife.12741). Further, we suspect that a sufficiently strong stimulus drive (e.g., large, looming stimuli) overrides these ongoing biases, which would explain the higher average pre-stimulus predictability in trials with small to intermediate-sized stimuli. An important follow-up line of experimentation could involve comparing the neuronal dynamics of specific components of the visual circuitry at distinct internal bias states, ideally utilizing emerging voltage indicators to maximize spatiotemporal specificity. For example, what is the difference between trials with a large looming stimulus in the left visual fields when the turn direction bias indicates a leftward versus rightward drive?

      - What other motor outputs do the noise dimensions correlate with?

      To better demonstrate the relationship between neural noise modes and motor activity that we described, we have provided a more detailed correlation analysis in new Figure S4A. We extracted additional features related to the larva’s tail kinematics, including tail vigor, curvature, principal components of curvature, angular velocity, and angular acceleration (S4A(i)). Some of these behavioral features were correlated with one another; for example, in the example traces, PC1 appears to capture nearly the same behavioral feature as tail vigor. The largest noise modes showed stronger correlations with motor output than the smaller noise modes, which is reminiscent recent work in the mouse showing that some of the neural dimensions with highest variance were correlated with various behavioral features (Musall et al. 2019; Stringer et al. 2019; Manley et al. 2024). We anticipate additional motor outputs would exhibit correlations with neural noise modes, such as pectoral fin movements (not possible to capture in our preparation due to immobilization) and eye movements.

      The dataset that the authors have collected is immensely valuable to the field, and the initial insights they have drawn are interesting and provide a good starting ground for a more expanded understanding of why a particular action is determined outside of the parameters experimenters set for their subjects.

      We thank the reviewer for noting the value of our dataset and look forward to future efforts motivated by the observations in our study.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Overview

      In this work, Manley and Vaziri investigate the neural basis for variability in the way an animal responds to visual stimuli evoking prey-capture or predator-avoidance decisions. This is an interesting problem and the authors have generated a potentially rich and relevant data set. To do so, the authors deployed Fourier light field microscopy (Flfm) of larval zebrafish, improving upon prior designs and image processing schemes to enable volumetric imaging of calcium signals in the brain at up to 10 Hz. They then examined associations between neural activity and tail movement to identify populations primarily related to the visual stimulus, responsiveness, or turn direction - moreover, they found that the activity of the latter two populations appears to predict upcoming responsiveness or turn direction even before the stimulus is presented. While these findings may be valuable for future more mechanistic studies, issues with resolution, rigor of analysis, clarity of presentation, and depth of connection to the prior literature significantly dampen enthusiasm.

      Imaging

      - Resolution: It is difficult to tell from the displayed images how good the imaging resolution is in the brain. Given scattering and lensing, it is important for data interpretation to have an understanding of how much PSF degrades with depth.

      We thank the reviewer for their comments and agree that the dependence of the PSF and resolution as a function of depth is an important consideration in light field imaging. To quantify this, we measured the lateral resolution of the fLFM as a function of distance from the native image plane (NIP) using a USAF target. The USAF target was positioned at various depths using an automated z-stage, and the slice of the reconstructed volume corresponding to that depth was analyzed. An element was considered resolved if the modulation transfer function (MTF) was greater than 30%.

      In new Figure S1A, we plot the resolution measurements of the fLFM as compared to the conventional LFM (Prevedel et al., 2014), which shows the increase in resolution across the axial extent of imaging. In particular, the fLFM does not exhibit the dramatic drop in lateral resolution near the NIP which is seen in conventional LFM. In addition, the expanded range of high-resolution imaging motivates our increase from an axial range of 200 microns in previous studies to 280 microns in this study.

      - Depth: In the methods it is indicated that the imaging depth was 280 microns, but from the images of Figure 1 it appears data was collected only up to 150 microns. This suggests regions like the hypothalamus, which may be important for controlling variation in internal states relevant to the behaviors being studied, were not included.

      The full axial range of imaging was 280 microns, i.e. spanning from 140 microns below to 140 microns above the native imaging plane. After aligning our recordings to the Z-Brain dataset, we have compared the 3D distribution of neurons in our data (new Figure S1E(i)) to the labeling of the reference brain (Figure S1E(ii)). This provides evidence that our imaging preparation largely captures the labeling seen in a dense, high-resolution reference image within the indicated 280 microns range.

      - Flfm data processing: It is important for data interpretation that the authors are clearer about how the raw images were processed. The de-noising process specifically needs to be explained in greater detail. What are the characteristics of the noise being removed? How is time-varying signal being distinguished from noise? Please provide a supplemental with images and algorithm specifics for each key step.

      We thank the reviewer for their comment. To address the reviewer’s point regarding the data processing pipeline utilized in our study, in our revised manuscript we have added a number of additional figure panels in Figure S1B-E to quantify and describe the various steps of the pipeline in greater depth.

      First, the raw fLFM images are denoised. The denoising approach utilized in the fLFM data processing pipeline is not novel, but rather a custom-trained variant of Lecoq et al.’s (2021) DeepInterpolation method. In our original manuscript, we also described the specific architecture and parameters utilized to train our specific variation of DeepInterpolation model. To make this procedure clearer, we have added the following details to the methods:

      “DeepInterpolation is a self-supervised approach to denoising, which denoises the data by learning to predict a given frame from a set of frames before and after it. Time-varying signal can be distinguished from shot noise because shot noise is independent across frames, but signal is not. Therefore, only the signal is able to be predicted from adjacent frames. This has been shown to provide a highly effective and efficient denoising method (Lecoq et al., 2021).”

      Therefore, time-varying signal is distinguished from noise based on the correlations of pixel intensity across consecutive imaging frames. To better visualize this process, in new Figure S1B we show example images and fluorescence traces before and after denoising.

      - Merging: It is noted that nearby pixels with a correlation greater than 0.7 were merged. Why was this done? Is this largely due to cross-contamination due to a drop in resolution? How common was this occurrence? What was the distribution of pixel volumes after aggregation? Should we interpret this to mean that a 'neuron' in this data set is really a small cluster of 10-20 neurons? This of course has great bearing on how we think about variability in the response shown later.

      First, to be clear, nearby pixels were not merged; instead neuronal ROIs identified by CNMF-E were merged, as we had described: “the CNMF-E algorithm was applied to each plane in parallel, after which the putative neuronal ROIs from each plane were collated and duplicate neurons across planes were merged.” If this merging was not performed, the number of neurons would be overestimated due to the relatively dense 3D reconstruction with voxels of 4 m axially. Therefore, this merging is a requisite component of the pipeline to avoid double counting of neurons, regardless of the resolution of the data.

      However, we agree with the reviewer that the practical consequences of this merging were not previously described in sufficient detail. Therefore, in our revision we have added additional quantification of the two critical components of the merging procedure: the number of putative neuronal ROIs merged and the volume of the final 3D neuronal ROIs, which demonstrate that a neuron in our data should not be interpreted as a cluster of 10-20 neurons.

      In new Figure S1C(i), we summarize the rate of occurrence of merging by assessing the number of putative 2D ROIs which were merged to form each final 3D neuronal ROI. Across n=10 recordings, approximately 75% of the final 3D neuronal ROIs involved no merging at all, and few instances involved merging more than 5 putative ROIs. Next, in Figure S1C(ii), we quantify the volume of the final 3D ROIs. To do so, we counted the number of voxels contributing to each final 3D neuronal ROI and multiplied that by the volume of a single voxel (2.4 x 2.4 x 4 µm<sup>3</sup>). The majority of neurons had a volume of less than 1000 µm<up>3</sup>, which corresponds to a spherical volume with a radius of roughly 6.2 m. In summary, both the merging statistics and volume distribution demonstrate that few neuronal ROIs could be consistent with “a small cluster of 10-20 neurons”.

      - Bleaching: Please give the time constants used in the fit for assessing bleaching.

      As described in the Methods, the photobleaching correction was performed by fitting a bi-exponential function to the mean fluorescence across all neurons. We have provided the time constants determined by these fits for n=10 recordings in new Figure S1D(i). In addition, we provided an example of raw mean activity, the corresponding bi-exponential fit, and the mean activity after correction in Figure S1D(ii). These data demonstrate that the dominant photobleaching effect is a steep decrease in mean signal at the beginning of the recording (represented by the estimated time constant τ<sub>1</sub>), followed by a slow decay (τ<sub>2</sub>).

      Analysis

      - Slow calcium dynamics: It does not appear that the authors properly account for the slow dynamics of calcium-sensing in their analysis. Nuclear-localized GCaMP6s will likely have a kernel with a multiple-second decay time constant for many of the cells being studied. The value used needs to be given and the authors should account for variability in this kernel time across cell types. Moreover, by not deconvolving their signals, the authors allow for contamination of their signal at any given time with a signal from multiple seconds prior. For example, in Figure 4A (left turns), it appears that much of the activity in the first half of the time-warped stimulus window began before stimulus presentation - without properly accounting for the kernel, we don't know if the stimulus-associated activity reported is really stimulus-associated firing or a mix of stimulus and pre-stimulus firing. This also suggests that in some cases the signals from the prior trial may contaminate the current trial.

      We would like to respond to each of the points raised here by the reviewer individually.

      (1) “It does not appear that the authors properly account for the slow dynamics of calcium-sensing in their analysis. Nuclear-localized GCaMP6s will likely have a kernel with a multiple-second decay time constant for many of the cells being studied. The value used needs to be given…”

      We disagree with the reviewer’s claim that the slow dynamics of the calcium indicator GCaMP were not accounted for. While we did not deconvolve the neuronal traces with the GCaMP response kernel, in every step in which we correlated neural activity with sensory or motor variables, we convolved the stimulus or motor timeseries with the GCaMP kernel, as described in the Methods. Therefore, the expected delay and smoothing effects were accounted for when analyzing the correlation structure between neural and behavioral or stimulus variables, as well as during our various classification approaches. To better describe this, we have added the following description of the kernel to our Methods:

      “The NL-GCaMP6s kernel was estimated empirically by aligning and averaging a number of calcium events. This kernel corresponds to a half-rise time of 400 ms and half-decay time of 4910 ms.”

      This approach accounts for the GCaMP kernel when relating the neuronal dynamics to stimuli and behavior, while avoiding any artifacts that could be introduced from improper deconvolution or other corrections directly to the calcium dynamics. Deconvolution of calcium imaging data, and in particular nuclear-localized (NL) GCaMP6s, is not always a robust procedure. In particular, GCaMP6s has a much more nonlinear response profile than newer GCaMP variants such as jGCaMP8 (Zhang et al. 2023, doi:10.1038/s41586-023-05828-9), as the reviewer notes later in their comments. The nuclear-localized nature of the indicator used in our study also provides an additional nonlinear effect. Accounting for a nonlinear relationship between calcium concentration and fluorescence readout is significantly more difficult because such nonlinearities remove the guarantee that the optimization approaches generally used in deconvolution will converge to global extrema. This means that deconvolution assuming nonlinearities is far less robust than deconvolution using the linear approximation (Vogelstein et al. 2010, doi: 10.1152/jn.01073.2009). Therefore, we argue that we are not currently aware of any appropriate methods for deconvolving our NL-GCaMP6s data, and take a more conservative approach in our study.

      We also argue that the natural smoothness of calcium imaging data is important for the analyses utilized in our study (Shen et al., 2022, doi:10.1016/j.jneumeth.2021.109431). Even if our data were deconvolved in order to estimate spike trains or more point-like activity patterns, such data are generally smoothed (e.g., by estimating firing rates) before dimensionality reduction, which is a core component of our neuronal population analyses. Further, Wei et al. (2020, doi:10.1371/journal.pcbi.1008198) showed in detail that deconvolved calcium data resulted in less accurate population decoding, whereas binned electrophysiological data and raw calcium data were equally accurate. When using other techniques, such as clustering of neuronal activity patterns (a method we do not employ in this study), spike and deconvolved calcium data were instead shown to be more accurate than raw calcium data. Therefore, we do not believe deconvolution of the neuronal traces is appropriate in this case without a better understanding of the NL-GCaMP6s response, and do not rely on the properties of deconvolution for our analyses. Still, we agree with the reviewer that one must be mindful of the GCaMP kernel when analyzing and interpreting these data, and therefore have noted the delayed and slow kinematics of the NL-GCaMP within our manuscript, for example: “To visualize the neuronal activity during a given trial while accounting for the delay and kinematics of the nuclear-localized GCaMP (NL-GCaMP) sensor, a duration of approximately 15 seconds is extracted beginning at the onset of the 3-second visual stimulus period.”

      (2) “… and the authors should account for variability in this kernel time across cell types.”

      In addition to the points raised above, we are not aware of any deconvolution procedures which have successfully shown the ability to account for variability in the response kernel across cell types in whole-brain imaging data when cell type is unknown a priori. Pachitariu et al. (2018, doi:10.1523/JNEUROSCI.3339-17.2018) showed that the best deconvolution procedures for calcium imaging data rely on a simple algorithm with a fixed kernel. Further, more complicated approaches either utilize either explicit priors about the calcium kernel or learn implicit priors using supervised learning, neither of which we would be able to confirm are appropriate for our dataset without ground truth electrophysiological spike data.

      However, we agree with the reviewer that we must interpret the data while being mindful that there could be variability in this kernel across neurons, which is not accounted for in our fixed calcium kernel. We have added the following sentence to our revised manuscript to highlight this limitation:

      “The used of a fixed calcium kernel does not account for any variability in the GCaMP response across cells, which could be due to differences such as cell type or expression level. Therefore, this analysis approach may not capture the full set of neurons which exhibit stimulus correlations but exhibit a different GCaMP response.”

      (3) “without properly accounting for the kernel, we don't know if the stimulus-associated activity reported is really stimulus-associated firing or a mix of stimulus and pre-stimulus firing”

      While we agree with the reviewer that the slow dynamics of the indicator will cause a delay and smoothing of the signal over time, we would like to point out that this effect is highly directional. In particular, we can be confident that pre-stimulus activity is not contaminated by the stimulus given the data we describe in the next point regarding the timing of visual stimuli relative to the GCaMP kernel. The reviewer is correct that post-stimulus firing can be mixed with pre-stimulus firing due to the GCaMP kernel. However, our key claims in Figure 4 center around turn direction and responsiveness biases, which are present even before the onset of the stimulus. Still, we have highlighted this delay and smoothing to readers in the updated version of our manuscript.

      (4) “This also suggests that in some cases the signals from the prior trial may contaminate the current trial”

      We have carefully chosen the inter-stimulus interval for maximum efficiency of stimulation, while ensuring that contamination from the previous stimulus is negligible. The inter-stimulus interval was chosen by empirically analyzing preliminary data of visual stimulation with our preparation. New Figure S3C shows the delay and slow kinematics due to our indicator; indeed, visually-evoked activity peaks after the end of the short stimulus period. Importantly, however, the visually-evoked activity is at or near baseline at the start of the next trial.

      Finally, we would like to note that our stimulation protocol is randomized, as described in the Methods. Therefore, the previous stimulus has no correlation with the current stimulus, which would prevent any contamination from providing predictive power that could be identified by our visual decoding methods.

      - Partial Least Squares (PLS) regression: The steps taken to identify stimulus coding and noise dimensions are not sufficiently clear. Please provide a mathematical description.

      We have updated the Results and Methods sections of our revised manuscript to describe in more mathematical detail the approach taken to identify the relevant dimensions of neuronal activity:

      “The comparison of the neural dimensions encoding visual stimuli versus trial-to-trial noise was modeled after Rumyantsev et al. (2020). Partial least squares (PLS) regression was used to find a low-dimensional space that optimally predicted the visual stimuli, which we refer to as the visually-evoked neuronal activity patterns. To perform regression, a visual stimulus kernel was constructed by summing the timeseries of each individual stimulus type, weighted by the stimulus size and negated for trials on the right visual field, thus providing a single response variable encoding both the location, size, and timing of all the stimulus presentations. This stimulus kernel was the convolved with the temporal response kernel of our calcium indicator (NL-GCaMP6s).

      PLS regression identifies the normalized dimensions and that maximize the covariance between paired observations and , respectively. In our case, the visual stimulus is represented by a single variable , simplifying the problem to identifying the subspace of neural activity that optimally preserves information about the visual stimulus (sometimes referred to as PLS1 regression). That is, the N x T neural time series matrix X is reduced to a d x T matrix spanned by a set of orthonormal vectors. PLS1 regression is performed as follows:

      PLS1 algorithm

      Let X<sub>i</sub> = X and . For i = 1…d,

      (1) 

      (2) 

      (3) 

      (4) 

      (5)  (note this is scalar)

      (6) 

      The projections of the neural data {p<sub>i</sub>} thus span a subspace that maximally preserves information about the visual stimulus . Stacking these projections into the N x d matrix P that represents the transform from the whole-brain neural state space to the visually-evoked subspace, the optimal decoding direction is given by the linear least squares solution . The dimensionality d of PLS regression was optimized using 6-fold cross-validation with 3 repeats and choosing the dimensionality between d = 1 and 20 with the lowest cross-validated mean squared error for each larva. Then, was computed using all time points.

      For each stimulus type, the noise covariance matrix  was computed in the low-dimensional PLS space, given that direct estimation of the noise covariances across many thousands of neurons would likely be unreliable. A noise covariance matrix was calculated separately for each stimulus, and then averaged across all stimuli. As before, the mean activity µ<sub>i</sub> for each neuron  was computed over each stimulus presentation period. The noise covariance then describes the correlated fluctuations δ<sub>i</sub> around this mean response for each pair of neurons i and j, where

      The noise modes for α = 1 …d were subsequently identified by eigendecomposition of the mean noise covariance matrix across all stimuli, . The angle between the optimal stimulus decoding direction and the noise modes is thus given by .”

      - No response: It is not clear from the methods description if cases where the animal has no tail response are being lumped with cases where the animal decides to swim forward and thus has a large absolute but small mean tail curvature. These should be treated separately. 

      We thank the reviewer for raising the potential for this confusion and agree that forward-motion trials should not treated the same as motionless trials. While these types of trial were indeed treated separately in our original manuscript, we have updated the Methods section of our revised manuscript to make this clear:

      “Left and right turn trials were extracted as described previously. Response trials included both left and right turn trials (i.e., the absolute value of mean tail curvature > σ<sub>active</sub>), whereas nonresponse trials were motionless (absolute mean tail curvature < σ<sub>active</sub>). In particular, forward-motion trials were excluded from these analyses.”

      While our study has focused specifically on left and right turns, we hypothesize that the responsiveness bias ensemble may also be involved in forward movements and look forward to future work exploring the relationship between whole-brain dynamics and the full range of motor outputs.

      - Behavioral variability: Related to Figure 2, within- and across-subject variability are confounded. Please disambiguate. It may also be informative on a per-fish basis to examine associations between reaction time and body movement.

      The reviewer is correct that our previously reported summary statistics in Figure 2D-F were aggregated across trials from multiple larvae. Following the reviewer’s suggestion to make the magnitudes of across-larvae and within-larva variability clear, in our revised manuscript we have added two additional figure panels to Figure S2.

      New Figure S2A highlights the across-larvae variability in mean head-directed behavioral responses to stimuli of various sizes. Overall, the relationship between stimulus size and the mean tail curvature across trials is largely consistent across larvae; however, the crossing-over point between leftward (positive curvature) and rightward (negative curvature) turns for a given side of the visual field exhibits some variability across larvae.

      New Figure S2B shows examples of within-larva variability by plotting the mean tail curvature during single trials for two example larvae. Consistent with Figure 2G which also demonstrates within-larva variability, responses to a given stimulus are variable across trials in both examples. However, this degree of within-larva variability can appear different across larvae. For example, the larva shown on the left of Figure S2B exhibits greater overlap between responses to stimuli presented on opposite visual fields, whereas the larva shown on the right exhibits greater distinction between responses.

      - Data presentation clarity: All figure panels need scale bars - for example, in Figure 3A there is no indication of timescale (or time of stimulus presentation). Figure 3I should also show the time series of the w_opt projection.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s attention to detail in this regard. We have added scalebars to Figures 3A, 3H-I, S4B(ii), 4H, 4J in the revised manuscript, and all new figure panels where relevant. In addition, the caption of Figure 3A has been updated to include a description of the time period plotted relative to the onset of the visual stimulus.

      Additionally, we appreciate the reviewer’s idea to show w<sub>opt</sub> in Figure 3J of the revised manuscript (previously Figure 3I). This clearly shows that the visual decoding project is inactive during the short baseline period before visual stimulation begins, whereas the noise mode is correlated with motor output throughout the recording.

      - Pixel locations: Given the poor quality of the brain images, it is difficult to tell the location of highlighted pixels relative to brain anatomy. In addition, given that the midbrain consists of much more than the tectum, it is not appropriate to put all highlighted pixels from the midbrain under the category of tectum. To aid in data interpretation and better connect this work with the literature, it is recommended that the authors register their data sets to standard brain atlases and determine if there is any clustering of relevant pixels in regions previously associated with prey-capture or predator-avoidance behavior.

      We agree with the reviewer that registration of our datasets to a standard brain atlas is a highly useful addition. While the dense, pan-neuronal labeling makes the isolation of highly specific circuit components difficult, we have shown in more detail the specific brain regions contributing to these populations by aligning our recordings to the Z-Brain atlas (Randlett et al., 2015) as shown in new Figures S1E, S3F-G, 4I, 4K, and S5F-G. In addition, we provided a more detailed parcellation of the neuronal ensembles by providing projections of the full 3D volume along the xy and yz axes, in addition to the unregistered xy projection shown in new Figures 4H and 4J. We also found that the distribution of neurons in our huc:H2B-GCaMP6s recordings is very similar to the distribution of labeling in the huc:H2B-RFP reference image from the Z-Brain atlas (new Figure S1E), which further supports our whole-brain imaging results.

      Overall, we find that this more detailed quantification and visualization is consistent with the interpretations in the previous version of our manuscript. In particular, we show that optimal visual decoding population (w<sub>opt</sub>) and largest noise mode (e1) are localized to the midbrain (new Figures S3F-G), which is expected since in Figure 3 we first extracted a low-dimensional subspace of whole-brain neural activity that optimally preserved visual information. Additionally, we provide additional evidence that the populations correlated with the turn bias and responsiveness bias are distributed throughout the brain, including a relatively dense localization to the cerebellum, telencephalon, and dorsal diencephalon (habenula, new Figures 4H-K and S5F-G).

      Finally, the reviewer is correct that our original label of “tectum” was a misnomer; the region analyzed corresponded to the midbrain, including the tegmentum, torus longitudinalis, and torus semicicularis in addition to the tectum. We have updated the brain regions shown and labels throughout the manuscript.

      Interpretation

      - W_opt and e_1 orthogonality: The statement that these two vectors, determined from analysis of the fluorescence data, are orthogonal, actually brings into question the idea that true signal and leading noise vectors in firing-rate state-space are orthogonal. First, the current analysis is confounding signals across different time periods - one could assume linearity all the way through the transformations, but this would only work if earlier sources of activation were being accounted for. Second, the transformation between firing rate and fluorescence is most likely not linear for GCaMP6s in most of the cells recorded. Thus, one would expect a change in the relationship between these vectors as one maps from fluorescence to firing rate.

      Unfortunately, we are not entirely sure we have understood the reviewer’s argument. We are assuming that the reviewer’s first sentence is suggesting that the observation of orthogonality in the neural state space measured in calcium imaging precludes the possibility (“actually brings into question”, as the reviewer states) that the same neural ensembles could be orthogonal in firing rate state space measured by electrophysiological data. If this is the reviewer’s conjecture, we respectfully disagree with it. Consider a toy example of a neural network containing N ensembles of neurons, where the neurons within an ensemble all fire simultaneously, and two populations never fire at the same time. As long as the “switching” of firing between ensembles is not fast relative to the resolution of the GCaMP kernel, the largest principal components would represent orthogonal dimensions differentiating the various ensembles, both when observing firing rates or observing timeseries convolved by the GCaMP kernel. This is a simple example where the observed orthogonality would appear similar in both calcium imaging and electrophysical data, demonstrating that we should not allow conclusions from fluorescence data to “bring into question” that the same result could be observed in firing rate data.

      We also disagree with the reviewer’s argument that we are “confounding signals across time periods”. Indeed, we must interpret the data in light of the GCaMP response kernel. However, all of the analyses presented here are performed on instantaneous measurements of population activity patterns. These activity patterns do represent a smoothed, likely nonlinear integration of recent neuronal activity, but unless the variability in the GCaMP response kernel (discussed above) is widely different across these populations (which has not been observed in the literature), we do not expect that the GCaMP transformations would artificially induce orthogonality in our analysis approach. Such smoothing operations tend to instead increase correlations across neurons and population decoding approaches generally benefit from this smoothness, as we have argued above. However, a much more problematic situation would be if we were comparing the activity of two neuronal populations at different points in time (which we do not include in this study), in which case the nonlinearities could overaccentuate orthogonality between non-time-matched activity patterns.

      Finally, we agree with the reviewer that the transformation between firing rate and fluorescence is very likely nonlinear and that these vectors of population activity do not perfectly represent what would be observed if one had access to whole-brain, cellular-resolution electrophysiology spike data. However, similar observations regarding the brain-wide, distributed encoding of behavior have been confirmed across recording modalities in the mouse (Stringer et al., 2019; Steinmetz et al., 2019), where large-scale electrophysiology utilizing highly invasive probes (e.g., Neuropixels) is more feasible than in the larval zebrafish. With the advent of whole-brain voltage imaging in the larval zebrafish, we expect any differences between calcium and voltage dynamics will be better understood, yet such techniques will likely continue to suffer to some extent from the nonlinearities described here.

      - Sources of variability: The authors do not take into account a fairly obvious source of variability in trial-to-trial response - eye position. We know that prey capture responsiveness is dependent on eye position during stimulus (see Figure 4 of PMID: 22203793). We also expect that neurons fairly early in the visual pathway with relatively narrow receptive fields will show variable responses to visual stimuli as the degree of overlap with the receptive field varies with eye movement. There can also be small eye-tracking movements ahead of the decision to engage in prey capture (Figure 1D, PMID: 31591961) that can serve as a drive to initiate movements in a particular direction. Given these possibilities indicating that the behavioral measure of interest is gaze, and the fact that eye movements were apparently monitored, it is surprising that the authors did not include eye movements in the analysis and interpretation of their data.

      We agree with the reviewer that eye movements, such as saccades and convergence, are important motor outputs that are well-known to play a role in the sequence of motor actions during prey capture and other behaviors. Therefore, we have added the following new eye tracking results to our revised manuscript:

      “In order to confirm that the observed neural variability in the visually-evoked populations was not predominantly due to eye movements, such as saccades or convergence, we tracked the angle of each eye. We utilized DeepLabCut, a deep learning tool for animal pose estimation (Mathis et al., 2018), to track keypoints on the eye which are visible in the raw fLFM images, including the retina and pigmentation (Figure S3D(i)). This approach enabled identification of various eye movements, such as convergence and the optokinetic reflex (Figure S3D(ii-iii)). Next, we extracted a number of various eye states, including those based on position (more leftward vs. rightward angles) and speed (high angular velocity vs. low or no motion). Figure S3E(i) provides example stimulus response profiles across trials of the same visual stimulus in each of these eye states, similar to a single column of traces in Figure 3A broken out into more detail. These data demonstrate that the magnitude and temporal dynamics of the stimulus-evoked responses show apparently similar levels of variability across eye states. If neural variability was driven by eye movement during the stimulus presentation, for example, one would expect to see much more variability during the high angular velocity trials than low, which is not apparent. Next, we asked whether the dominant neural noise modes vary across eye states, which would suggest that the geometry of neuronal variability is influenced by eye movements or states. To do so, the dominant noise modes were estimated in each of the individual eye conditions, as well as bootstrapped trials from across all eye conditions. The similarity of these noise modes estimated from different eye conditions (Figure S3E(ii), right)) was not significantly different from the similarity of noise modes estimated from bootstrapped random samples across all eye conditions (Figure S3E(ii), left)). Therefore, while movements of the eye likely contribute to aspects of the observed neural variability, they do not dominate the observed neural variability here, particularly given our observation that the largest noise mode represents a considerable fraction of the observed neural variance (Figure 3E).”

      While these results provide an important control in our study, we anticipate further study of the relationship between eye movements or states, visually-evoked neural activity, and neural noise modes would identify the additional neural ensembles which are correlated with and drive this additional motor output.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this study, Manley and Vaziri designed and built a Fourier light-field microscope (fLFM) inspired by previous implementations but improved and exclusively from commercially available components so others can more easily reproduce the design. They combined this with the design of novel algorithms to efficiently extract whole-brain activity from larval zebrafish brains.

      This new microscope was applied to the question of the origin of behavioral variability. In an assay in which larval zebrafish are exposed to visual dots of various sizes, the fish respond by turning left or right or not responding at all. Neural activity was decomposed into an activity that encodes the stimulus reliably across trials, a 'noise' mode that varies across trials, and a mode that predicts tail movements. A series of analyses showed that trial-to-trial variability was largely orthogonal to activity patterns that encoded the stimulus and that these noise modes were related to the larvae's behavior.

      To identify the origins of behavioral variability, classifiers were fit to the neural data to predict whether the larvae turned left or right or did not respond. A set of neurons that were highly distributed across the brain could be used to classify and predict behavior. These neurons could also predict spontaneous behavior that was not induced by stimuli above chance levels. The work concludes with findings on the distributed nature of single-trial decision-making and behavioral variability.

      Strengths:

      The design of the new fLFM microscope is a significant advance in light-field and computational microscopy, and the open-source design and software are promising to bring this technology into the hands of many neuroscientists.

      The study addresses a series of important questions in systems neuroscience related to sensory coding, trial-to-trial variability in sensory responses, and trial-to-trial variability in behavior. The study combines microscopy, behavior, dynamics, and analysis and produces a well-integrated analysis of brain dynamics for visual processing and behavior. The analyses are generally thoughtful and of high quality. This study also produces many follow-up questions and opportunities, such as using the methods to look at individual brain regions more carefully, applying multiple stimuli, investigating finer tail movements and how these are encoded in the brain, and the connectivity that gives rise to the observed activity. Answering questions about variability in neural activity in the entire brain and its relationship to behavior is important to neuroscience and this study has done that to an interesting and rigorous degree.

      Points of improvement and weaknesses:

      The results on noise modes may be a bit less surprising than they are portrayed. The orthogonality between neural activity patterns encoding the sensory stimulus and the noise modes should be interpreted within the confounds of orthogonality in high-dimensional spaces. In higher dimensional spaces, it becomes more likely that two random vectors are almost orthogonal. Since the neural activity measurements performed in this study are quite high dimensional, a more explicit discussion is warranted about the small chance that the modes are not almost orthogonal.

      We agree with the reviewer that orthogonality is less “surprising” in high-dimensional spaces, and we have added this important point of interpretation to our revised manuscript. Still, it is important to remember that while the full neural state space is very high-dimensional (we record that activity of up to tens of thousands of neurons simultaneously), our analyses regarding the relationship between the trial-to-trial noise modes and decoding dimensions were performed in a low-dimensional subspace (up to 20 dimensions) identified by PLS regression to that optimally preserved visual information. This is a key step in our analysis which serves two purposes: 1. it removes some of the confound described the reviewer regarding the dimensionality of the neural state space analyzed; and 2. it ensures that the noise modes we analyze are even relevant to sensorimotor processing. It would certainly not be surprising or interesting if we identified a neural dimension outside the midbrain which was orthogonal to the optimal visual decoding dimension. 

      Regardless, in order to better control for this confound, we estimated the distribution of angles between random vectors in this subspace. As we describe in the revised manuscript:

      “However, in high-dimensional spaces, it becomes increasingly common that two random vectors could appear orthogonal. While this is particularly a concern when analyzing a neural state space spanned by tens of thousands of neurons, our application of PLS regression to identify a low-dimensional subspace of relevant neuronal activity partially mitigates this concern. In order to control for this confound, we compared the angles between w<sub>opt</sub> and e1 across larvae to that computed with shuffled versions of w<sub>opt,shuff</sub> estimated by randomly shuffling the stimulus labels before identifying the optimal decoding direction. While it is possible to observe shuffled vectors which are nearly orthogonal to e<sub>1</sub>, the shuffled distribution spans a significantly greater range of angles than the observed data, demonstrating that this orthogonality is not simply a consequence of analyzing multi-dimensional activity patterns.”

      The conclusion that sparsely distributed sets of neurons produce behavioral variability needs more investigation because the way the results are shown could lead to some misinterpretations. The prediction of behavior from classifiers applied to neural activity is interesting, but the results are insufficiently presented for two reasons.

      (1) The neurons that contribute to the classifiers (Figures 4H and J) form a sufficient set of neurons that predict behavior, but this does not mean that neurons outside of that set cannot be used to predict behavior. Lasso regularization was used to create the classifiers and this induces sparsity. This means that if many neurons predict behavior but they do so similarly, the classifier may select only a few of them. This is not a problem in itself but it means that the distributions of neurons across the brain (Figures 4H and J) may appear sparser and more distributed than the full set of neurons that contribute to producing the behavior. This ought to be discussed better to avoid misinterpretation of the brain distribution results, and an alternative analysis that avoids the confound could help clarify.

      We thank the reviewer for raising this point, which we agree should be discussed in the manuscript. Lasso regularization was a key ingredient in our analysis; l2 regularization alone was not sufficient to prevent overfitting to the training trials, particularly when decoding turn direction and responsiveness. Previous studies have also found that sparse subsets of neurons better predict behavior than single neuron or non-sparse populations, for example Scholz et al. (2018).

      While showing l2 regularization would not be a fair comparison given the poor performance of the l2-regularized classifiers, we opted to identify a potentially “fuller” set of neurons correlated with these biases based on the correlation between each neuron’s activity over the recording and the projection along the turn direction or responsiveness dimension identified using l1 regularization. This procedure has the potential to identify all neurons correlated with the final ensemble dynamics, rather than just a “sufficient set” for lasso regression. In new Figures S5F-G, we show the 3D distribution of all neurons significantly correlated with these biases, which appear similar to those in Figures 4H-K and widely distributed across practically the entire labeled area of the brain.

      (2) The distribution of neurons is shown in an overly coarse manner in only a flattened brain seen from the top, and the brain is divided into four coarse regions (telencephalon, tectum, cerebellum, hindbrain). This makes it difficult to assess where the neurons are and whether those four coarse divisions are representative or whether the neurons are in other non-labeled deeper regions. For these two reasons, some of the statements about the distribution of neurons across the brain would benefit from a more thorough investigation.

      We agree with the reviewer that a more thorough description and visualization of these distributed populations is warranted.

      While the dense, pan-neuronal labeling makes the isolation of highly specific circuit components difficult, we have shown in more detail the specific brain regions contributing to these populations by aligning our recordings to the Z-Brain atlas (Randlett et al., 2015) as shown in new Figures S1E, S3F-G, 4I, 4K, and S5F-G. In addition, we provided a more detailed parcellation of the neuronal ensembles by providing projections of the full 3D volume along the xy and yz axes, in addition to the unregistered xy projection shown in new Figures 4H and 4J. We also found that the distribution of neurons in our huc:H2B-GCaMP6s recordings is very similar to the distribution of labeling in the huc:H2B-RFP reference image from the Z-Brain atlas (new Figure S1E), which further supports our whole-brain imaging results.

      Overall, we find that this more detailed quantification and visualization is consistent with the interpretations in the previous version of our manuscript. In particular, we show that optimal visual decoding population (w<sub>opt</sub>) and largest noise mode (e1) are localized to the midbrain (new Figures S3F-G), which is expected since in Figure 3 we first extracted a low-dimensional subspace of whole-brain neural activity that optimally preserved visual information. Additionally, we provide additional evidence that the populations correlated with the turn bias and responsiveness bias are distributed throughout the brain, including a relatively dense localization to the cerebellum, telencephalon, and dorsal diencephalon (habenula, new Figures 4H-K and S5F-G).

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      In addition to the overall strengths and weaknesses above, I have a few specific comments that I think could improve the study:

      (1) In lines 334-335 you write that 'We proceeded to build various logistic regression classifiers to decode'. Do you mean you tested this with other classifier types as well (e.g. SVM, Naive Bayes) or do you mean various because you trained the classifier described in the methods on each animal? This is not clear. If it is the first, more information is needed about what other classifiers you used.

      We appreciate the reviewer raising this point of clarification. Here, we simply meant that we fit the multiclass logistic regression classifier in the one-vs-rest scheme. In this sense, a single multiclass logistic regression classifier was fit for each larva. We have updated our revised manuscript with this clarification: “The visual stimuli were decoded using a one-versus-rest, multiclass logistic regression classifier with lasso regularization.”

      (2) In Figure 3 you train the decoder on all visually responsive cells identified across the brain. Does this reliability of stimulus decoding also hold for neurons sampled from specific brain regions? For example, does this reliable decoding come from stronger and more reliable responses in the optic tectum, whereas stimulus decodability is not as good in visual encoding neurons identified in other structures?

      In new Figure S5B, we show the performance of stimulus decoding from various brain regions. We find that stimulus classification is possible from the midbrain and cerebellum, very poor from the hindbrain, and not possible from the telencephalon during the period between stimulus onset and the decision.

      (3) In relation to point 2, it would be good to show in which brain areas the visually responsive neurons are located, and maybe the average coefficients per brain area. Plots like Figures 3G, and H would benefit from a quantification into areas. Similarly, a parcellation into more specific brain areas in Figure 4 would also be valuable.

      In addition to providing a more detailed parcellation of the turn direction and responsiveness bias populations in Figure 4, we have provided a similar visualization and quantification of the optimal stimulus decoding population and the dominant noise mode in new Figures S3F-G, respectively.

      (4) In Figure 3f, it is not clear to me how this shows that w<sub>opt</sub> and e1 are orthogonal. They appear correlated.

      The orthogonality we quantify is related to the pattern of coefficients across neurons, not necessarily the timeseries of their projections. The slight shift in the noise mode activations as you move from stimuli on the left visual field to the right actually comes from the motor outputs. Large left stimuli tend to evoke a rightward turn and vice versa, and the example noise mode shown encodes the directionality and vigor of tail movements, resulting in the slight shifts observed.

      (5) I think the wording of this conclusion is too strong for the results and a bit illogical:

      'Thus, our data suggest that the neural dynamics underlying single-trial action selection are the result of a widely-distributed circuit that contains subpopulations encoding internal time-varying biases related to both the larva's responsiveness and turn direction, yet distinct from the sensory encoding circuitry.'

      If that is the case, how is it even possible that the larvae can do a visually guided behaviour?

      Especially given Suppl Fig 4C it would be more appropriate to say something along the lines of: 'When stimuli are highly ambiguous, single trial action selection is dominated by widely-distributed circuit that contains subpopulations encoding internal time-varying biases related to both the larva's responsiveness and turn direction, that encode choice distinctly from the sensory encoding circuitry'.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s suggestion and have re-worded this line in the discussion in order to clarify that these time-varying biases are predominant in the case of ambiguous stimuli, as shown in Figure S5C in our revised manuscript (corresponding to Figure S4C in our original submission).

      (6) Line 599: typo: trial-to-trail

      We thank the reviewer for noting this error, which has been corrected in the revised text of the manuscript.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This work starts with the observation that embryo polarization is asynchronous starting at the early 8-cell stage, with early polarizing cells being biased towards producing the trophectoderm (TE) lineage. They further found that reduced CARM1 activity and upregulation of its substrate BAF155 promote early polarization and TE specification, this piece of evidence connects the previous finding that at Carm1 heterogeneity 4-cell stage guide later cell lineages - the higher Carm1-expressing blastomeres are biased towards ICM lineage. Thus, this work provides a link between asymmetries at the 4-cell stage and polarization at the 8-cell stage, providing a cohesive explanation regarding the first lineage allocation in mouse embryos.

      Strengths:

      In addition to what has been put in the summary, the advanced 3D image-based analysis has found that early polarization is associated with a change in cell geometry in blastomeres, regarding the ratio of the long axis to the short axis. This is considered a new observation that has not been identified.

      Weaknesses:

      For the microinjection-based method to overexpression/deletion of proteins, although it has been shown to be effective in the early embryo settings and has been widely used, it may not fully represent the in vivo situation in some cases, compared to other strategies such as the use of knock-in mice. This is a minor weakness; it would be good to include some sentences in the discussion on the potential caveats.

      We thank the reviewer for their insightful summary of our work, and their adjudication on the novelty of our research. We agree with the reviewer that microinjection-based methods, whilst being the standard and widely used in the field, have their weaknesses. In this study, we have primarily used microinjection of previously tested and known constructs which may help mitigate these concerns, and have referenced numerous studies in which these constructs have been used and tested. Nevertheless, the authors are aware of this drawback and have tried to address this previously in other research using novel artificial intelligence techniques (Shen and Lamba et al., 2022 – cited in the manuscript) and this continues to be an active area of investigation for us.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this study, Lamba and colleagues suggest a molecular mechanism to explain cell heterogeneity in cell specification during pre-implantation development. They show that embryo polarization is asynchronous. They propose that reduced CARM1 activity and upregulation of its substrate BAF155 promote early polarization and trophectoderm specification.

      Strengths:

      The authors use appropriate and validated methodology to address their scientific questions. They also report excellent live imaging. Most of the data are accompanied by careful quantifications.

      Weaknesses:

      I think this manuscript requires some more quantification, increased number of embryos in their evaluations and clearly stating the number of embryos evaluated per experiments.

      We thank the reviewer for these thoughtful comments on our work, their kind assessment of the strength of our research, and their notes on the weaknesses. We have replied to their points raised below.

      Here are some points:

      (1) It should be clearly stated in all figure legends and in the text how many cells from how many embryos were analyzed.

      We appreciate this comment to provide detailed quantification for every experiment in the paper and stating the numbers of embryos (if a whole embryo level experiment) or blastomeres used for statistical tests and displayed in the graph.

      (2) I think that the number of embryos sometimes are too low. These are mouse embryos easily accessible and the methods used are well established in this lab, so the authors should make an effort to have at least 10/15 embryos per experiment. For example "In agreement with this, hybridization chain reaction (HCR) RNA fluorescence in situ hybridization of early 8-cell stage embryos revealed that the number of CDX2 mRNA puncta was higher in polarized blastomeres with a PARD6-positive apical domain than in unpolarized blastomeres, for 5 out of 6 embryos with EP cells (Figure 3A, B)".. or the data for Figure 4, we know how many cells but now how many embryos.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment regarding the number of embryos used in the hybridization chain reaction (HCR) experiment. We agree that increasing the number of embryos could, in principle, further add statistical power. However, both first authors have since left the lab to begin their postdoctoral training or joining a company, and it is not feasible for us to generate additional embryos at this stage.

      Importantly, we believe the number of embryos included in the current manuscript is sufficient to support our conclusions, especially when considered in the context of the broader experimental design, the timing of the study, and our ethical commitment to minimizing animal use.

      Notably, the initial HCR experiment targeting Cdx2 mRNA served as a key indication that prompted further investigation of CDX2 at the protein level. These follow-up experiments were conducted with increased numbers of embryos and/or cells and are presented in Figure 3 and the associated supplementary figures (we now have 124 cells (including 23 EP cells) from 16 embryos), thereby strengthening and confirming the conclusion suggested by the HCR data.

      (3) It would be useful to see in Figure 4 an example of asymmetric cell division as done for symmetric cell division in panel 4B. This could really help the reader to understand how the authors assessed this.

      We used live imaging to track cell division patterns. Cells expressing RFP-tagged polarity proteins were observed during division to identify the resulting daughter cells. Immediately after cytokinesis, we assessed the polarity status of each daughter cell. If both daughter cells were polarized, the division was classified as symmetric; if only one was polarized, it was classified as asymmetric.

      Author response image 1.

      8-cell stage embryos expressing Ezrin-RFP (fire colour) was imaged during 8-16 cell stage division. Top panel arrows indicate a symmetric cell division in which polarity domain became partitioned into both daughter cells; bottom panel indicates asymmetric division in which the polarity domain only get inherited to one cell of the two daughter cells.

      (4) Figure 5C there is a big disproportion of the number of EP and LP identified. Could the authors increase the number of embryos quantified and see if they can increase EP numbers?

      We thank the reviewer for this comment and want to clarify an important detail: EP cells are a phenomenon with average cellular frequency of less than 10% as compared to LP cells (the other 90%). Therefore, when investigating natural embryo development without bias or exclusion, there will likely be an imbalance in the number of EP and LP cells as is the case for Figure 5C. In this case, morphological differences and clear statistical significance were seen between the shape of EP and LP cells within the cells quantified and therefore we decided not to expend further mice for this particular experiment – but we agree with the comment that in most cases additional embryos would help strength our conclusions further.

      (5) Could the authors give more details about how they mount the embryos for live imaging? With agarose or another technique? In which dishes? Overlaid with how much medium and oil? This could help other labs that want to replicate the live imaging in their labs. Also, was it a z-stack analysis? If yes, how many um per stack? Ideally, if they also know the laser power used (at least a range) it would be extremely useful.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment and have provided additional detail here and in the Methods section. For live imaging our embryos, we used glass-bottom 35 mm dishes. We then fixed a small cut square of nylon mesh (5mm to 1cm width and height) onto this plate in the centre using silicon which was used as a grid (diameter of approximately 150 micrometres) for deposition of embryos. After drying of the silicon (overnight) and washing with water, the grid was overlaid with a drop of 100 microlitres of KSOM and then covered with mineral oil until this KSOM drop was submerged. After incubation under conditions for live imaging, single embryos were deposited in each ‘well’ of the grid before being placed in the microscope, which was equilibrated at the correct temperature and CO2.

    1. Author response:

      The issue of a control without blue light illumination was raised. Clearly without the light we will not obtain any signal in the fluorescence microscopy experiments, which would not be very informative. Instead, we changed the level of blue light illumination in the fluorescence microscopy experiments (figure 4A) and the response of the bacteria scales with dosage. It is very hard to find an alternative explanation, beyond that the blue light is stressing the bacteria and modulating their membrane potentials.

      One of the referees refuses to see wavefronts in our microscopy data. We struggle to understand whether it is an issue with definitions (Waigh has published a tutorial on the subject in Chapter 5 of his book ‘The physics of bacteria: from cells to biofilms’, T.A.Waigh, CUP, 2024 – figure 5.1 shows a sketch) or something subtler on diffusion in excitable systems. We stand by our claim that we observe wavefronts, similar to those observed by Prindle et al<sup>1</sup> and Blee et al<sup>2</sup> for B. subtilis biofilms.

      The referee is questioning our use of ThT to probe the membrane potential. We believe the Pilizota and Strahl groups are treating the E. coli as unexcitable cells, leading to their problems. Instead, we believe E. coli cells are excitable (containing the voltage-gated ion channel Kch) and we now clearly state this in the manuscript. Furthermore, we include a section here discussing some of the issues with ThT.


      Use of ThT as a voltage sensor in cells

      ThT is now used reasonably widely in the microbiology community as a voltage sensor in both bacterial [Prindle et al]1 and fungal cells [Pena et al]12. ThT is a small cationic fluorophore that loads into the cells in proportion to their membrane potential, thus allowing the membrane potential to be measured from fluorescence microscopy measurements.

      Previously ThT was widely used to quantify the growth of amyloids in molecular biology experiments (standardized protocols exist and dedicated software has been created)13 and there is a long history of its use14. ThT fluorescence is bright, stable and slow to photobleach.

      Author response image 1 shows a schematic diagram of the ThT loading in E. coli in our experiments in response to illumination with blue light. Similar results were previously presented by Mancini et al15, but regimes 2 and 3 were mistakenly labelled as artefacts.

      Author response image 1.

      Schematic diagram of ThT loading during an experiment with E. coli cells under blue light illumination i.e. ThT fluorescence as a function of time. Three empirical regimes for the fluorescence are shown (1, 2 and 3).

      The classic study of Prindle et al on bacterial biofilm electrophysiology established the use of ThT in B. subtilis biofilms by showing similar results occurred with DiSc3 which is widely used as a Nernstian voltage sensor in cellular biology1 e.g. with mitochondrial membrane potentials in eukaryotic organisms where there is a large literature. We repeated such a comparative calibration of ThT with DiSc3 in a previous publication with both B. subtilis and P. aeruginosa cells2. ThT thus functioned well in our previous publications with Gram positive and Gram negative cells.

      However, to our knowledge, there are now two groups questioning the use of ThT and DiSc3 as voltage sensors with E. coli cells15-16. The first by the Pilizota group claims ThT only works as a voltage sensor in regime 1 of Author response image 1 using a method based on the rate of rotation of flagellar motors. Another slightly contradictory study by the Strahl group claims DiSc316 only acts as a voltage sensor with the addition of an ionophore for potassium which allows free movement of potassium through the E. coli membranes.

      Our resolution to this contradiction is that ThT does indeed work reasonably well with E. coli. The Pilizota group’s model for rotating flagellar motors assumes the membrane voltage is not varying due to excitability of the membrane voltage (otherwise a non-linear Hodgkin Huxley type model would be needed to quantify their results) i.e. E. coli cells are unexcitable. We show clearly in our study that ThT loading in E. coli is a function of irradiation with blue light and is a stress response of the excitable cells. This is in contradiction to the Pilizota group’s model. The Pilizota group’s model also requires the awkward fiction of why cells decide to unload and then reload ThT in regimes 2 and 3 of Author response image 1 due to variable membrane partitioning of the ThT. Our simple explanation is that it is just due to the membrane voltage changing and no membrane permeability switch needs to be invoked. The Strahl group’s16 results with DiSc3 are also explained by a neglect of the excitable nature of E. coli cells that are reacting to blue light irradiation. Adding ionophores to the E. coli membranes makes the cells unexcitable, reduces their response to blue light and thus leads to simple loading of DiSc3 (the physiological control of K+ in the cells by voltage-gated ion channels has been short circuited by the addition of the ionophore).

      Further evidence of our model that ThT functions as a voltage sensor with E. coli include:

      1) The 3 regimes in Author response image 1 from ThT correlate well with measurements of extracellular potassium ion concentration using TMRM i.e. all 3 regimes in Author response image 1 are visible with this separate dye (figure 1d).

      2) We are able to switch regime 3 in Author response image 1, off and then on again by using knock downs of the potassium ion channel Kch in the membranes of the E. coli and then reinserting the gene back into the knock downs. This cannot be explained by the Pilizota model.

      We conclude that ThT works reasonably well as a sensor of membrane voltage in E. coli and the previous contradictory studies15-16 are because they neglect the excitable nature of the membrane voltage of E. coli cells in response to the light used to make the ThT fluoresce.

      Three further criticisms of the Mancini et al method15 for calibrating membrane voltages include:

      1) E. coli cells have clutches that are not included in their models. Otherwise the rotation of the flagella would be entirely enslaved to the membrane voltage allowing the bacteria no freedom to modulate their speed of motility.

      2) Ripping off the flagella may perturb the integrity of the cell membrane and lead to different loading of the ThT in the E. coli cells.

      3) Most seriously, the method ignores the activity of many other ion channels (beyond H+) on the membrane voltage that are known to exist with E. coli cells e.g. Kch for K+ ions. The Pilizota groups uses a simple Nernstian battery model developed for mitochondria in the 1960s. It is not adequate to explain our results.

      An additional criticism of the Winkel et al study17 from the Strahl group is that it indiscriminately switches between discussion of mitochondria and bacteria e.g. on page 8 ‘As a consequence the membrane potential is dominated by H+’. Mitochondria are slightly alkaline intracellular organelles with external ion concentrations in the cytoplasm that are carefully controlled by the eukaryotic cells. E. coli are not i.e. they have neutral internal pHs, with widely varying extracellular ionic concentrations and have reinforced outer membranes to resist osmotic shocks (in contrast mitochondria can easily swell in response to moderate changes in osmotic pressure).

      A quick calculation of the equilibrium membrane voltage of E. coli can be easily done using the Nernst equation dependent on the extracellular ion concentrations defined by the growth media (the intracellular ion concentrations in E. coli are 0.2 M K+ and 10-7 M H+ i.e. there is a factor of a million fewer H+ ions). Thus in contradiction to the claims of the groups of Pilizota15 and Strahl17, H+ is a minority determinant to the membrane voltage of E. coli. The main determinant is K+. For a textbook version of this point the authors can refer to Chapter 4 of D. White, et al’s ‘The physiology and biochemistry of prokaryotes’, OUP, 2012, 4th edition.

      Even in mitochondria the assumption that H+ dominates the membrane potential and the cells are unexcitable can be questioned e.g. people have observed pulsatile depolarization phenomena with mitochondria18-19. A large number of K+ channels are now known to occur in mitochondrial membranes (not to mention Ca2+ channels; mitochondria have extensive stores of Ca2+) and they are implicated in mitochondrial membrane potentials. In this respect the seminal Nobel prize winning research of Peter Mitchell (1961) on mitochondria needs to be amended20. Furthermore, the mitochondrial work is clearly inapplicable to bacteria (the proton motive force, PMF, will instead subtly depend on non-linear Hodgkin-Huxley equations for the excitable membrane potential, similar to those presented in the current article). A much more sophisticated framework has been developed to describe electrophysiology by the mathematical biology community to describe the activity of electrically excitable cells (e.g. with neurons, sensory cells and cardiac cells), beyond Mitchell’s use of the simple stationary equilibrium thermodynamics to define the Proton Motive Force via the electrochemical potential of a proton (the use of the word ‘force’ is unfortunate, since it is a potential). The tools developed in the field of mathematical electrophysiology8 should be more extensively applied to bacteria, fungi, mitochondria and chloroplasts if real progress is to be made.


      Related to the previous point, we now cite articles from the Pilizota and Strahl groups in the main text (one from each group). Unfortunately, the space constraints of eLife mean we cannot make a more detailed discussion in the main article.

      In terms of modelling the ion channels, the Hodgkin-Huxley type model proposes that the Kch ion channel can be modelled as a typical voltage-gated potassium ion channel i.e. with a 𝑛<sup>4</sup> term in its conductivity. The literature agrees that Kch is a voltage-gated potassium ion channel based on its primary sequence<sup>3</sup>. The protein has the typical 6 transmembrane helix motif for a voltage-gated ion channel. The agent-based model assumes little about the structure of ion channels in E. coli, other than they release potassium in response to a threshold potassium concentration in their environment. The agent based model is thus robust to the exact molecular details chosen and predicts the anomalous transport of the potassium wavefronts reasonably well (the modelling was extended in a recent Physical Review E article(<sup>4</sup>). Such a description of reaction-anomalous diffusion phenomena has not to our knowledge been previously achieved in the literature<sup>5</sup> and in general could be used to describe other signaling molecules.

      1. Prindle, A.; Liu, J.; Asally, M.; Ly, S.; Garcia-Ojalvo, J.; Sudel, G. M., Ion channels enable electrical communication in bacterial communities. Nature 2015, 527, 59.

      2. Blee, J. A.; Roberts, I. S.; Waigh, T. A., Membrane potentials, oxidative stress and the dispersal response of bacterial biofilms to 405 nm light. Physical Biology 2020, 17, 036001.

      3. Milkman, R., An E. col_i homologue of eukaryotic potassium channel proteins. _PNAS 1994, 91, 3510-3514.

      4. Martorelli, V.; Akabuogu, E. U.; Krasovec, R.; Roberts, I. S.; Waigh, T. A., Electrical signaling in three-dimensional bacterial biofilms using an agent-based fire-diffuse-fire model. Physical Review E 2024, 109, 054402.

      5. Waigh, T. A.; Korabel, N., Heterogeneous anomalous transport in cellular and molecular biology. Reports on Progress in Physics 2023, 86, 126601.

      6. Hodgkin, A. L.; Huxley, A. F., A quantitative description of membrane current and its application to conduction and excitation in nerve. Journal of Physiology 1952, 117, 500.

      7. Dawson, S. P.; Keizer, J.; Pearson, J. E., Fire-diffuse-fire model of dynamics of intracellular calcium waves. PNAS 1999, 96, 606.

      8. Keener, J.; Sneyd, J., Mathematical Physiology. Springer: 2009.

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      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Critical synopsis of the articles cited by referee 2:

      (1) ‘Generalized workflow for characterization of Nernstian dyes and their effects on bacterial physiology’, L.Mancini et al, Biophysical Journal, 2020, 118, 1, 4-14.

      This is the central article used by referee 2 to argue that there are issues with the calibration of ThT for the measurement of membrane potentials. The authors use a simple Nernstian battery (SNB) model and unfortunately it is wrong when voltage-gated ion channels occur. Huge oscillations occur in the membrane potentials of E. coli that cannot be described by the SNB model. Instead a Hodgkin Huxley model is needed, as shown in our eLife manuscript and multiple other studies (see above). Arrhenius kinetics are assumed in the SNB model for pumping with no real evidence and the generalized workflow involves ripping the flagella off the bacteria! The authors construct an elaborate ‘work flow’ to insure their ThT results can be interpreted using their erroneous SNB model over a limited range of parameters.

      (2) ‘Non-equivalence of membrane voltage and ion-gradient as driving forces for the bacterial flagellar motor at low load’, C.J.Lo, et al, Biophysical Journal, 2007, 93, 1, 294.

      An odd de novo chimeric species is developed using an E. coli  chassis which uses Na+ instead of H+ for the motility of its flagellar motor. It is not clear the relevance to wild type E. coli, due to the massive physiological perturbations involved. A SNB model is using to fit the data over a very limited parameter range with all the concomitant errors.

      (3) Single-cell bacterial electrophysiology reveals mechanisms of stress-induced damage’, E.Krasnopeeva, et al, Biophysical Journal, 2019, 116, 2390.

      The abstract says ‘PMF defines the physiological state of the cell’. This statement is hyperbolic. An extremely wide range of molecules contribute to the physiological state of a cell. PMF does not even define the electrophysiology of the cell e.g. via the membrane potential. There are 0.2 M of K+ compared with 0.0000001 M of H+ in E. coli, so K+ is arguably a million times more important for the membrane potential than H+ and thus the electrophysiology!

      Equation (1) in the manuscript assumes no other ions are exchanged during the experiments other than H+. This is a very bad approximation when voltage-gated potassium ion channels move the majority ion (K+) around!

      In our model Figure 4A is better explained by depolarisation due to K+ channels closing than direct irreversible photodamage. Why does the THT fluorescence increase again for the second hyperpolarization event if the THT is supposed to be damaged? It does not make sense.

      (4) ‘The proton motive force determines E. coli robustness to extracellular pH’, G.Terradot et al, 2024, preprint.

      This article expounds the SNB model once more. It still ignores the voltage-gated ion channels. Furthermore, it ignores the effect of the dominant ion in E. coli, K+. The manuscript is incorrect as a result and I would not recommend publication.

      In general, an important problem is being researched i.e. how the membrane potential of E. coli is related to motility, but there are serious flaws in the SNB approach and the experimental methodology appears tenuous.

      Answers to specific questions raised by the referees

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Cell-to-cell communication is essential for higher functions in bacterial biofilms. Electrical signals have proven effective in transmitting signals across biofilms. These signals are then used to coordinate cellular metabolisms or to increase antibiotic tolerance. Here, the authors have reported for the first time coordinated oscillation of membrane potential in E. coli biofilms that may have a functional role in photoprotection.

      Strengths:

      - The authors report original data.

      - For the first time, they showed that coordinated oscillations in membrane potential occur in E. Coli biofilms.

      - The authors revealed a complex two-phase dynamic involving distinct molecular response mechanisms.

      - The authors developed two rigorous models inspired by 1) Hodgkin-Huxley model for the temporal dynamics of membrane potential and 2) Fire-Diffuse-Fire model for the propagation of the electric signal.

      - Since its discovery by comparative genomics, the Kch ion channel has not been associated with any specific phenotype in E. coli. Here, the authors proposed a functional role for the putative K+ Kch channel : enhancing survival under photo-toxic conditions.

      We thank the referee for their positive evaluations and agree with these statements.

      Weaknesses:

      - Since the flow of fresh medium is stopped at the beginning of the acquisition, environmental parameters such as pH and RedOx potential are likely to vary significantly during the experiment. It is therefore important to exclude the contributions of these variations to ensure that the electrical response is only induced by light stimulation. Unfortunately, no control experiments were carried out to address this issue.

      The electrical responses occur almost instantaneously when the stimulation with blue light begins i.e. it is too fast to be a build of pH. We are not sure what the referee means by Redox potential since it is an attribute of all chemicals that are able to donate/receive electrons. The electrical response to stress appears to be caused by ROS, since when ROS scavengers are added the electrical response is removed i.e. pH plays a very small minority role if any.

      - Furthermore, the control parameter of the experiment (light stimulation) is the same as that used to measure the electrical response, i.e. through fluorescence excitation. The use of the PROPS system could solve this problem.

      >>We were enthusiastic at the start of the project to use the PROPs system in E. coli as presented by J.M.Krajl et al, ‘Electrical spiking in E. coli probed with a fluorescent voltage-indicating protein’, Science, 2011, 333, 6040, 345. However, the people we contacted in the microbiology community said that it had some technical issues and there have been no subsequent studies using PROPs in bacteria after the initial promising study. The fluorescent protein system recently presented in PNAS seems more promising, ‘Sensitive bacterial Vm sensors revealed the excitability of bacterial Vm and its role in antibiotic tolerance’, X.Jin et al, PNAS, 120, 3, e2208348120.

      - Electrical signal propagation is an important aspect of the manuscript. However, a detailed quantitative analysis of the spatial dynamics within the biofilm is lacking. In addition, it is unclear if the electrical signal propagates within the biofilm during the second peak regime, which is mediated by the Kch channel. This is an important question, given that the fire-diffuse-fire model is presented with emphasis on the role of K+ ions.

      We have presented a more detailed account of the electrical wavefront modelling work and it is currently under review in a physical journal, ‘Electrical signalling in three dimensional bacterial biofilms using an agent based fire-diffuse-fire model’, V.Martorelli, et al, 2024 https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2023.11.17.567515v1

      - Since deletion of the kch gene inhibits the long-term electrical response to light stimulation (regime II), the authors concluded that K+ ions play a role in the habituation response. However, Kch is a putative K+ ion channel. The use of specific drugs could help to clarify the role of K+ ions.

      Our recent electrical impedance spectroscopy publication provides further evidence that Kch is associated with large changes in conductivity as expected for a voltage-gated ion channel (https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.nanolett.3c04446, 'Electrical impedance spectroscopy with bacterial biofilms: neuronal-like behavior', E.Akabuogu et al, ACS Nanoletters, 2024, in print.

      - The manuscript as such does not allow us to properly conclude on the photo-protective role of the Kch ion channel.

      That Kch has a photoprotective role is our current working hypothesis. The hypothesis fits with the data, but we are not saying we have proven it beyond all possible doubt.

      - The link between membrane potential dynamics and mechanosensitivity is not captured in the equation for the Q-channel opening dynamics in the Hodgkin-Huxley model (Supp Eq 2).

      Our model is agnostic with respect to the mechanosensitivity of the ion channels, although we deduce that mechanosensitive ion channels contribute to ion channel Q.

      - Given the large number of parameters used in the models, it is hard to distinguish between prediction and fitting.

      This is always an issue with electrophysiological modelling (compared with most heart and brain modelling studies we are very conservative in the choice of parameters for the bacteria). In terms of predicting the different phenomena observed, we believe the model is very successful.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary of what the authors were trying to achieve:

      The authors thought they studied membrane potential dynamics in E.coli biofilms. They thought so because they were unaware that the dye they used to report that membrane potential in E.coli, has been previously shown not to report it. Because of this, the interpretation of the authors' results is not accurate.

      We believe the Pilizota work is scientifically flawed.

      Major strengths and weaknesses of the methods and results:

      The strength of this work is that all the data is presented clearly, and accurately, as far as I can tell.

      The major critical weakness of this paper is the use of ThT dye as a membrane potential dye in E.coli. The work is unaware of a publication from 2020 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0006349519308793 [sciencedirect.com] that demonstrates that ThT is not a membrane potential dye in E. coli. Therefore I think the results of this paper are misinterpreted. The same publication I reference above presents a protocol on how to carefully calibrate any candidate membrane potential dye in any given condition.

      We are aware of this study, but believe it to be scientifically flawed. We do not cite the article because we do not think it is a particularly useful contribution to the literature.

      I now go over each results section in the manuscript.

      Result section 1: Blue light triggers electrical spiking in single E. coli cells

      I do not think the title of the result section is correct for the following reasons. The above-referenced work demonstrates the loading profile one should expect from a Nernstian dye (Figure 1). It also demonstrates that ThT does not show that profile and explains why is this so. ThT only permeates the membrane under light exposure (Figure 5). This finding is consistent with blue light peroxidising the membrane (see also following work Figure 4 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0006349519303923 [sciencedirect.com] on light-induced damage to the electrochemical gradient of protons-I am sure there are more references for this).

      The Pilizota group invokes some elaborate artefacts to explain the lack of agreement with a simple Nernstian battery model. The model is incorrect not the fluorophore.

      Please note that the loading profile (only observed under light) in the current manuscript in Figure 1B as well as in the video S1 is identical to that in Figure 3 from the above-referenced paper (i.e. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0006349519308793 [sciencedirect.com]), and corresponding videos S3 and S4. This kind of profile is exactly what one would expect theoretically if the light is simultaneously lowering the membrane potential as the ThT is equilibrating, see Figure S12 of that previous work. There, it is also demonstrated by the means of monitoring the speed of bacterial flagellar motor that the electrochemical gradient of protons is being lowered by the light. The authors state that applying the blue light for different time periods and over different time scales did not change the peak profile. This is expected if the light is lowering the electrochemical gradient of protons. But, in Figure S1, it is clear that it affected the timing of the peak, which is again expected, because the light affects the timing of the decay, and thus of the decay profile of the electrochemical gradient of protons (Figure 4 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0006349519303923 [sciencedirect.com]).

      We think the proton effect is a million times weaker than that due to potasium i.e. 0.2 M K+ versus 10-7 M H+. We can comfortably neglect the influx of H+ in our experiments.

      If find Figure S1D interesting. There authors load TMRM, which is a membrane voltage dye that has been used extensively (as far as I am aware this is the first reference for that and it has not been cited https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1914430 [ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]/). As visible from the last TMRM reference I give, TMRM will only load the cells in Potassium Phosphate buffer with NaCl (and often we used EDTA to permeabilise the membrane). It is not fully clear (to me) whether here TMRM was prepared in rich media (it explicitly says so for ThT in Methods but not for TMRM), but it seems so. If this is the case, it likely also loads because of the damage to the membrane done with light, and therefore I am not surprised that the profiles are similar.

      The vast majority of cells continue to be viable. We do not think membrane damage is dominating.

      The authors then use CCCP. First, a small correction, as the authors state that it quenches membrane potential. CCCP is a protonophore (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/4962086 [pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]/), so it collapses electrochemical gradient of protons. This means that it is possible, and this will depend on the type of pumps present in the cell, that CCCP collapses electrochemical gradient of protons, but the membrane potential is equal and opposite in sign to the DeltapH. So using CCCP does not automatically mean membrane potential will collapse (e.g. in some mammalian cells it does not need to be the case, but in E.coli it is https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.11.19.469321v2 [biorxiv.org]). CCCP has also been recently found to be a substrate for TolC (https://journals.asm.org/doi/10.1128/mbio.00676-21 [journals.asm.org]), but at the concentrations the authors are using CCCP (100uM) that should not affect the results. However, the authors then state because they observed, in Figure S1E, a fast efflux of ions in all cells and no spiking dynamics this confirms that observed dynamics are membrane potential related. I do not agree that it does. First, Figure S1E, does not appear to show transients, instead, it is visible that after 50min treatment with 100uM CCCP, ThT dye shows no dynamics. The action of a Nernstian dye is defined. It is not sufficient that a charged molecule is affected in some way by electrical potential, this needs to be in a very specific way to be a Nernstian dye. Part of the profile of ThT loading observed in https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0006349519308793 [sciencedirect.com] is membrane potential related, but not in a way that is characteristic of Nernstian dye.

      Our understanding of the literature is CCCP poisons the whole metabolism of the bacterial cells. The ATP driven K+ channels will stop functioning and this is the dominant contributor to membrane potential.

      Result section 2: Membrane potential dynamics depend on the intercellular distance

      In this chapter, the authors report that the time to reach the first intensity peak during ThT loading is different when cells are in microclusters. They interpret this as electrical signalling in clusters because the peak is reached faster in microclusters (as opposed to slower because intuitively in these clusters cells could be shielded from light). However, shielding is one possibility. The other is that the membrane has changed in composition and/or the effective light power the cells can tolerate (with mechanisms to handle light-induced damage, some of which authors mention later in the paper) is lower. Given that these cells were left in a microfluidic chamber for 2h hours to attach in growth media according to Methods, there is sufficient time for that to happen. In Figure S12 C and D of that same paper from my group (https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0006349519308793-mmc6.pdf [ars.els-cdn.com]) one can see the effects of peak intensity and timing of the peak on the permeability of the membrane. Therefore I do not think the distance is the explanation for what authors observe.

      Shielding would provide the reverse effect, since hyperpolarization begins in the dense centres of the biofilms. For the initial 2 hours the cells receive negligible blue light. Neither of the referee’s comments thus seem tenable.

      Result section 3: Emergence of synchronized global wavefronts in E. coli biofilms

      In this section, the authors exposed a mature biofilm to blue light. They observe that the intensity peak is reached faster in the cells in the middle. They interpret this as the ion-channel-mediated wavefronts moved from the center of the biofilm. As above, cells in the middle can have different membrane permeability to those at the periphery, and probably even more importantly, there is no light profile shown anywhere in SI/Methods. I could be wrong, but the SI3 A profile is consistent with a potential Gaussian beam profile visible in the field of view. In Methods, I find the light source for the blue light and the type of microscope but no comments on how 'flat' the illumination is across their field of view. This is critical to assess what they are observing in this result section. I do find it interesting that the ThT intensity collapsed from the edges of the biofilms. In the publication I mentioned https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0006349519308793#app2 [sciencedirect.com], the collapse of fluorescence was not understood (other than it is not membrane potential related). It was observed in Figure 5A, C, and F, that at the point of peak, electrochemical gradient of protons is already collapsed, and that at the point of peak cell expands and cytoplasmic content leaks out. This means that this part of the ThT curve is not membrane potential related. The authors see that after the first peak collapsed there is a period of time where ThT does not stain the cells and then it starts again. If after the first peak the cellular content leaks, as we have observed, then staining that occurs much later could be simply staining of cytoplasmic positively charged content, and the timing of that depends on the dynamics of cytoplasmic content leakage (we observed this to be happening over 2h in individual cells). ThT is also a non-specific amyloid dye, and in starving E. coli cells formation of protein clusters has been observed (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30472191 [pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]/), so such cytoplasmic staining seems possible.

      >>It is very easy to see if the illumination is flat (Köhler illumination) by comparing the intensity of background pixels on the detector. It was flat in our case. Protons have little to do with our work for reasons highlighted before. Differential membrane permittivity is a speculative phenomenon not well supported by any evidence and with no clear molecular mechanism.

      Finally, I note that authors observe biofilms of different shapes and sizes and state that they observe similar intensity profiles, which could mean that my comment on 'flatness' of the field of view above is not a concern. However, the scale bar in Figure 2A is not legible, so I can't compare it to the variation of sizes of the biofilms in Figure 2C (67 to 280um). Based on this, I think that the illumination profile is still a concern.

      The referee now contradicts themselves and wants a scale bar to be more visible. We have changed the scale bar.

      Result section 4: Voltage-gated Kch potassium channels mediate ion-channel electrical oscillations in E. coli

      First I note at this point, given that I disagree that the data presented thus 'suggest that E. coli biofilms use electrical signaling to coordinate long-range responses to light stress' as the authors state, it gets harder to comment on the rest of the results.

      In this result section the authors look at the effect of Kch, a putative voltage-gated potassium channel, on ThT profile in E. coli cells. And they see a difference. It is worth noting that in the publication https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0006349519308793 [sciencedirect.com] it is found that ThT is also likely a substrate for TolC (Figure 4), but that scenario could not be distinguished from the one where TolC mutant has a different membrane permeability (and there is a publication that suggests the latter is happening https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2958.2010.07245.x [onlinelibrary.wiley.com]). Given this, it is also possible that Kch deletion affects the membrane permeability. I do note that in video S4 I seem to see more of, what appear to be, plasmolysed cells. The authors do not see the ThT intensity with this mutant that appears long after the initial peak has disappeared, as they see in WT. It is not clear how long they waited for this, as from Figure S3C it could simply be that the dynamics of this is a lot slower, e.g. Kch deletion changes membrane permeability.

      The work that TolC provides a possible passive pathway for ThT to leave cells seems slightly niche. It just demonstrates another mechanism for the cells to equilibriate the concentrations of ThT in a Nernstian manner i.e. driven by the membrane voltage.

      The authors themselves state that the evidence for Kch being a voltage-gated channel is indirect (line 54). I do not think there is a need to claim function from a ThT profile of E. coli mutants (nor do I believe it's good practice), given how accurate single-channel recordings are currently. To know the exact dependency on the membrane potential, ion channel recordings on this protein are needed first.

      We have good evidence form electrical impedance spectroscopy experiments that Kch increases the conductivity of biofilms  (https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.nanolett.3c04446, 'Electrical impedance spectroscopy with bacterial biofilms: neuronal-like behavior', E.Akabuogu et al, ACS Nanoletters, 2024, in print.

      Result section 5: Blue light influences ion-channel mediated membrane potential events in E. coli

      In this chapter the authors vary the light intensity and stain the cells with PI (this dye gets into the cells when the membrane becomes very permeable), and the extracellular environment with K+ dye (I have not yet worked carefully with this dye). They find that different amounts of light influence ThT dynamics. This is in line with previous literature (both papers I have been mentioning: Figure 4 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0006349519303923 [sciencedirect.com] and https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0006349519308793-mmc6.pdf [ars.els-cdn.com] especially SI12), but does not add anything new. I think the results presented here can be explained with previously published theory and do not indicate that the ion-channel mediated membrane potential dynamics is a light stress relief process.

      The simple Nernstian battery model proposed by Pilizota et al is erroneous in our opinion for reasons outlined above. We believe it will prove to be a dead end for bacterial electrophysiology studies.

      Result section 6: Development of a Hodgkin-Huxley model for the observed membrane potential dynamics

      This results section starts with the authors stating: 'our data provide evidence that E. coli manages light stress through well-controlled modulation of its membrane potential dynamics'. As stated above, I think they are instead observing the process of ThT loading while the light is damaging the membrane and thus simultaneously collapsing the electrochemical gradient of protons. As stated above, this has been modelled before. And then, they observe a ThT staining that is independent from membrane potential.

      This is an erroneous niche opinion. Protons have little say in the membrane potential since there are so few of them. The membrane potential is mostly determined by K+.

      I will briefly comment on the Hodgkin Huxley (HH) based model. First, I think there is no evidence for two channels with different activation profiles as authors propose. But also, the HH model has been developed for neurons. There, the leakage and the pumping fluxes are both described by a constant representing conductivity, times the difference between the membrane potential and Nernst potential for the given ion. The conductivity in the model is given as gK*n^4 for potassium, gNa*m^3*h sodium, and gL for leakage, where gK, gNa and gL were measured experimentally for neurons. And, n, m, and h are variables that describe the experimentally observed voltage-gated mechanism of neuronal sodium and potassium channels. (Please see Hodgkin AL, Huxley AF. 1952. Currents carried by sodium and potassium ions through the membrane of the giant axon of Loligo. J. Physiol. 116:449-72 and Hodgkin AL, Huxley AF. 1952. A quantitative description of membrane current and its application to conduction and excitation in nerve. J. Physiol. 117:500-44).

      In the 70 years since Hodgkin and Huxley first presented their model, a huge number of similar models have been proposed to describe cellular electrophysiology. We are not being hyperbolic when we state that the HH models for excitable cells are like the Schrödinger equation for molecules. We carefully adapted our HH model to reflect the currently understood electrophysiology of E. coli.

      Thus, in applying the model to describe bacterial electrophysiology one should ensure near equilibrium requirement holds (so that (V-VQ) etc terms in authors' equation Figure 5 B hold), and potassium and other channels in a given bacterium have similar gating properties to those found in neurons. I am not aware of such measurements in any bacteria, and therefore think the pump leak model of the electrophysiology of bacteria needs to start with fluxes that are more general (for example Keener JP, Sneyd J. 2009. Mathematical physiology: I: Cellular physiology. New York: Springer or https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0000144 [journals.plos.org])

      The reference is to a slightly more modern version of a simple Nernstian battery model. The model will not oscillate and thus will not help modelling membrane potentials in bacteria. We are unsure where the equilibrium requirement comes from (inadequate modelling of the dynamics?)

      Result section 7: Mechanosensitive ion channels (MS) are vital for the first hyperpolarization event in E. coli.

      The results that Mcs channels affect the profile of ThT dye are interesting. It is again possible that the membrane permeability of these mutants has changed and therefore the dynamics have changed, so this needs to be checked first. I also note that our results show that the peak of ThT coincides with cell expansion. For this to be understood a model is needed that also takes into account the link between maintenance of electrochemical gradients of ions in the cell and osmotic pressure.

      The evidence for permeability changes in the membranes seems to be tenuous.

      A side note is that the authors state that the Msc responds to stress-related voltage changes. I think this is an overstatement. Mscs respond to predominantly membrane tension and are mostly nonspecific (see how their action recovers cellular volume in this publication https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1522185113 [pnas.org]). Authors cite references 35-39 to support this statement. These publications still state that these channels are predominantly membrane tension-gated. Some of the references state that the presence of external ions is important for tension-related gating but sometimes they gate spontaneously in the presence of certain ions. Other publications cited don't really look at gating with respect to ions (39 is on clustering). This is why I think the statement is somewhat misleading.

      We have reworded the discussion of Mscs since the literature appears to be ambiguous. We will try to run some electrical impedance spectroscopy experiments on the Msc mutants in the future to attempt to remove the ambiguity.

      Result section 8: Anomalous ion-channel-mediated wavefronts propagate light stress signals in 3D E. coli biofilms.

      I am not commenting on this result section, as it would only be applicable if ThT was membrane potential dye in E. coli.

      Ok, but we disagree on the use of ThT.

      Aims achieved/results support their conclusions:

      The authors clearly present their data. I am convinced that they have accurately presented everything they observed. However, I think their interpretation of the data and conclusions is inaccurate in line with the discussion I provided above.

      Likely impact of the work on the field, and the utility of the methods and data to the community:

      I do not think this publication should be published in its current format. It should be revised in light of the previous literature as discussed in detail above. I believe presenting it in it's current form on eLife pages would create unnecessary confusion.

      We believe many of the Pilizota group articles are scientifically flawed and are causing the confusion in the literature.

      Any other comments:

      I note, that while this work studies E. coli, it references papers in other bacteria using ThT. For example, in lines 35-36 authors state that bacteria (Bacillus subtilis in this case) in biofilms have been recently found to modulate membrane potential citing the relevant literature from 2015. It is worth noting that the most recent paper https://journals.asm.org/doi/10.1128/mbio.02220-23 [journals.asm.org] found that ThT binds to one or more proteins in the spore coat, suggesting that it does not act as a membrane potential in Bacillus spores. It is possible that it still reports membrane potential in Bacillus cells and the recent results are strictly spore-specific, but these should be kept in mind when using ThT with Bacillus.

      >>ThT was used successfully in previous studies of normal B. subtilis cells (by our own group and A.Prindle, ‘Spatial propagation of electrical signal in circular biofilms’, J.A.Blee et al, Physical Review E, 2019, 100, 052401, J.A.Blee et al, ‘Membrane potentials, oxidative stress and the dispersal response of bacterial biofilms to 405 nm light’, Physical Biology, 2020, 17, 2, 036001, A.Prindle et al, ‘Ion channels enable electrical communication in bacterial communities’, Nature, 2015, 527, 59-63). The connection to low metabolism pore research seems speculative.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      It has recently been demonstrated that bacteria in biofilms show changes in membrane potential in response to changes in their environment, and that these can propagate signals through the biofilm to coordinate bacterial behavior. Akabuogu et al. contribute to this exciting research area with a study of blue light-induced membrane potential dynamics in E. coli biofilms. They demonstrate that Thioflavin-T (ThT) intensity (a proxy for membrane potential) displays multiphasic dynamics in response to blue light treatment. They additionally use genetic manipulations to implicate the potassium channel Kch in the latter part of these dynamics. Mechanosensitive ion channels may also be involved, although these channels seem to have blue light-independent effects on membrane potential as well. In addition, there are challenges to the quantitative interpretation of ThT microscopy data which require consideration. The authors then explore whether these dynamics are involved in signaling at the community level. The authors suggest that cell firing is both more coordinated when cells are clustered and happens in waves in larger, 3D biofilms; however, in both cases evidence for these claims is incomplete. The authors present two simulations to describe the ThT data. The first of these simulations, a Hodgkin-Huxley model, indicates that the data are consistent with the activity of two ion channels with different kinetics; the Kch channel mutant, which ablates a specific portion of the response curve, is consistent with this. The second model is a fire-diffuse-fire model to describe wavefront propagation of membrane potential changes in a 3D biofilm; because the wavefront data are not presented clearly, the results of this model are difficult to interpret. Finally, the authors discuss whether these membrane potential changes could be involved in generating a protective response to blue light exposure; increased death in a Kch ion channel mutant upon blue light exposure suggests that this may be the case, but a no-light control is needed to clarify this.

      In a few instances, the paper is missing key control experiments that are important to the interpretation of the data. This makes it difficult to judge the meaning of some of the presented experiments.

      (1) An additional control for the effects of autofluorescence is very important. The authors conduct an experiment where they treat cells with CCCP and see that Thioflavin-T (ThT) dynamics do not change over the course of the experiment. They suggest that this demonstrates that autofluorescence does not impact their measurements. However, cellular autofluorescence depends on the physiological state of the cell, which is impacted by CCCP treatment. A much simpler and more direct experiment would be to repeat the measurement in the absence of ThT or any other stain. This experiment should be performed both in the wild-type strain and in the ∆kch mutant.

      ThT is a very bright fluorophore (much brighter than a GFP). It is clear from the images of non-stained samples that autofluorescence provides a negligible contribution to the fluorescence intensity in an image.

      (2) The effects of photobleaching should be considered. Of course, the intensity varies a lot over the course of the experiment in a way that photobleaching alone cannot explain. However, photobleaching can still contribute to the kinetics observed. Photobleaching can be assessed by changing the intensity, duration, or frequency of exposure to excitation light during the experiment. Considerations about photobleaching become particularly important when considering the effect of catalase on ThT intensity. The authors find that the decrease in ThT signal after the initial "spike" is attenuated by the addition of catalase; this is what would be predicted by catalase protecting ThT from photobleaching (indeed, catalase can be used to reduce photobleaching in time lapse imaging).

      Photobleaching was negligible over the course of the experiments. We employed techniques such as reducing sample exposure time and using the appropriate light intensity to minimize photobleaching.

      (3) It would be helpful to have a baseline of membrane potential fluctuations in the absence of the proposed stimulus (in this case, blue light). Including traces of membrane potential recorded without light present would help support the claim that these changes in membrane potential represent a blue light-specific stress response, as the authors suggest. Of course, ThT is blue, so if the excitation light for ThT is problematic for this experiment the alternative dye tetramethylrhodamine methyl ester perchlorate (TMRM) can be used instead.

      Unfortunately the fluorescent baseline is too weak to measure cleanly in this experiment. It appears the collective response of all the bacteria hyperpolarization at the same time appears to dominate the signal (measurements in the eLife article and new potentiometry measurements).

      (4) The effects of ThT in combination with blue light should be more carefully considered. In mitochondria, a combination of high concentrations of blue light and ThT leads to disruption of the PMF (Skates et al. 2021 BioRXiv), and similarly, ThT treatment enhances the photodynamic effects of blue light in E. coli (Bondia et al. 2021 Chemical Communications). If present in this experiment, this effect could confound the interpretation of the PMF dynamics reported in the paper.

      We think the PMF plays a minority role in determining the membrane potential in E. coli. For reasons outlined before (H+ is a minority ion in E. coli compared with K+).

      (5) Figures 4D - E indicate that a ∆kch mutant has increased propidium iodide (PI) staining in the presence of blue light; this is interpreted to mean that Kch-mediated membrane potential dynamics help protect cells from blue light. However, Live/Dead staining results in these strains in the absence of blue light are not reported. This means that the possibility that the ∆kch mutant has a general decrease in survival (independent of any effects of blue light) cannot be ruled out.

      >>Both strains of bacterial has similar growth curve and also engaged in membrane potential dynamics for the duration of the experiment. We were interested in bacterial cells that observed membrane potential dynamics in the presence of the stress. Bacterial cells need to be alive to engage in membrane potential  dynamics (hyperpolarize) under stress conditions. Cells that engaged in membrane potential dynamics and later stained red were only counted after the entire duration. We believe that the wildtype handles the light stress better than the ∆kch mutant as measured with the PI.

      (6) Additionally in Figures 4D - E, the interpretation of this experiment can be confounded by the fact that PI uptake can sometimes be seen in bacterial cells with high membrane potential (Kirchhoff & Cypionka 2017 J Microbial Methods); the interpretation is that high membrane potential can lead to increased PI permeability. Because the membrane potential is largely higher throughout blue light treatment in the ∆kch mutant (Fig. 3AB), this complicates the interpretation of this experiment.

      Kirchhoff & Cypionka 2017 J Microbial Methods, using fluorescence microscopy, suggested that changes in membrane potential dynamics can introduce experimental bias when propidium iodide is used to confirm the viability of tge bacterial strains, B subtilis (DSM-10) and Dinoroseobacter shibae, that are starved of oxygen (via N2 gassing) for 2 hours. They attempted to support their findings by using CCCP in stopping the membrane potential dynamics (but never showed any pictoral or plotted data for this confirmatory experiment). In our experiment methodology, cell death was not forced on the cells by introducing an extra burden or via anoxia. We believe that the accumulation of PI in ∆kch mutant is not due to high membrane potential dynamics but is attributed to the PI, unbiasedly showing damaged/dead cells. We think that propidium iodide is good for this experiment. Propidium iodide is a dye that is extensively used in life sciences. PI has also been used in the study of bacterial electrophysiology (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32343961/, ) and no membrane potential related bias was reported.

      Throughout the paper, many ThT intensity traces are compared, and described as "similar" or "dissimilar", without detailed discussion or a clear standard for comparison. For example, the two membrane potential curves in Fig. S1C are described as "similar" although they have very different shapes, whereas the curves in Fig. 1B and 1D are discussed in terms of their differences although they are evidently much more similar to one another. Without metrics or statistics to compare these curves, it is hard to interpret these claims. These comparative interpretations are additionally challenging because many of the figures in which average trace data are presented do not indicate standard deviation.

      Comparison of small changes in the absolute intensities is problematic in such fluorescence experiments. We mean the shape of the traces is similar and they can be modelled using a HH model with similar parameters.

      The differences between the TMRM and ThT curves that the authors show in Fig. S1C warrant further consideration. Some of the key features of the response in the ThT curve (on which much of the modeling work in the paper relies) are not very apparent in the TMRM data. It is not obvious to me which of these traces will be more representative of the actual underlying membrane potential dynamics.

      In our experiment, TMRM was used to confirm the dynamics observed using ThT. However, ThT appear to be more photostable than TMRM (especially towars the 2nd peak). The most interesting observation is that with both dyes, all phases of the membrane potential dynamics were conspicuous (the first peak, the quiescent period and the second peak). The time periods for these three episodes were also similar.

      A key claim in this paper (that dynamics of firing differ depending on whether cells are alone or in a colony) is underpinned by "time-to-first peak" analysis, but there are some challenges in interpreting these results. The authors report an average time-to-first peak of 7.34 min for the data in Figure 1B, but the average curve in Figure 1B peaks earlier than this. In Figure 1E, it appears that there are a handful of outliers in the "sparse cell" condition that likely explain this discrepancy. Either an outlier analysis should be done and the mean recomputed accordingly, or a more outlier-robust method like the median should be used instead. Then, a statistical comparison of these results will indicate whether there is a significant difference between them.

      The key point is the comparison of standard errors on the standard deviation.

      In two different 3D biofilm experiments, the authors report the propagation of wavefronts of membrane potential; I am unable to discern these wavefronts in the imaging data, and they are not clearly demonstrated by analysis.

      The first data set is presented in Figures 2A, 2B, and Video S3. The images and video are very difficult to interpret because of how the images have been scaled: the center of the biofilm is highly saturated, and the zero value has also been set too high to consistently observe the single cells surrounding the biofilm. With the images scaled this way, it is very difficult to assess dynamics. The time stamps in Video S3 and on the panels in Figure 2A also do not correspond to one another although the same biofilm is shown (and the time course in 2B is also different from what is indicated in 2B). In either case, it appears that the center of the biofilm is consistently brighter than the edges, and the intensity of all cells in the biofilm increases in tandem; by eye, propagating wavefronts (either directed toward the edge or the center) are not evident to me. Increased brightness at the center of the biofilm could be explained by increased cell thickness there (as is typical in this type of biofilm). From the image legend, it is not clear whether the image presented is a single confocal slice or a projection. Even if this is a single confocal slice, in both Video S3 and Figure 2A there are regions of "haze" from out-of-focus light evident, suggesting that light from other focal planes is nonetheless present. This seems to me to be a simpler explanation for the fluorescence dynamics observed in this experiment: cells are all following the same trajectory that corresponds to that seen for single cells, and the center is brighter because of increased biofilm thickness.

      We appreciate the reviewer for this important observation. We have made changes to the figures to address this confusion. The cell cover has no influence on the observed membrane potential dynamics. The entire biofilm was exposed to the same blue light at each time. Therefore all parts of the biofilm received equal amounts of the blue light intensity. The membrane potential dynamics was not influenced by cell density (see Fig 2C). 

      The second data set is presented in Video S6B; I am similarly unable to see any wave propagation in this video. I observe only a consistent decrease in fluorescence intensity throughout the experiment that is spatially uniform (except for the bright, dynamic cells near the top; these presumably represent cells that are floating in the microfluidic and have newly arrived to the imaging region).

      A visual inspection of Video S6B shows a fast rise, a decrease in fluorescence and a second rise (supplementary figure 4B). The data for the fluorescence was carefully obtained using the imaris software. We created a curved geometry on each slice of the confocal stack. We analyzed the surfaces of this curved plane along the z-axis. This was carried out in imaris.

      3D imaging data can be difficult to interpret by eye, so it would perhaps be more helpful to demonstrate these propagating wavefronts by analysis; however, such analysis is not presented in a clear way. The legend in Figure 2B mentions a "wavefront trace", but there is no position information included - this trace instead seems to represent the average intensity trace of all cells. To demonstrate the propagation of a wavefront, this analysis should be shown for different subpopulations of cells at different positions from the center of the biofilm. Data is shown in Figure 8 that reflects the velocity of the wavefront as a function of biofilm position; however, because the wavefronts themselves are not evident in the data, it is difficult to interpret this analysis. The methods section additionally does not contain sufficient information about what these velocities represent and how they are calculated. Because of this, it is difficult for me to evaluate the section of the paper pertaining to wave propagation and the predicted biofilm critical size.

      The analysis is considered in more detail in a more expansive modelling article, currently under peer review in a physics journal, ‘Electrical signalling in three dimensional bacterial biofilms using an agent based fire-diffuse-fire model’, V.Martorelli, et al, 2024 https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2023.11.17.567515v1

      There are some instances in the paper where claims are made that do not have data shown or are not evident in the cited data:

      (1) In the first results section, "When CCCP was added, we observed a fast efflux of ions in all cells"- the data figure pertaining to this experiment is in Fig. S1E, which does not show any ion efflux. The methods section does not mention how ion efflux was measured during CCCP treatment.

      We have worded this differently to properly convey our results.

      (2) In the discussion of voltage-gated calcium channels, the authors refer to "spiking events", but these are not obvious in Figure S3E. Although the fluorescence intensity changes over time, it's hard to distinguish these fluctuations from measurement noise; a no-light control could help clarify this.

      The calcium transients observed were not due to noise or artefacts.

      (3) The authors state that the membrane potential dynamics simulated in Figure 7B are similar to those observed in 3D biofilms in Fig. S4B; however, the second peak is not clearly evident in Fig. S4B and it looks very different for the mature biofilm data reported in Fig. 2. I have some additional confusion about this data specifically: in the intensity trace shown in Fig. S4B, the intensity in the second frame is much higher than the first; this is not evident in Video S6B, in which the highest intensity is in the first frame at time 0. Similarly, the graph indicates that the intensity at 60 minutes is higher than the intensity at 4 minutes, but this is not the case in Fig. S4A or Video S6B.

      The confusion stated here has now been addressed. Also it should be noted that while Fig 2.1 was obtained with LED light source, Fig S4A was obtained using a laser light source. While obtaining the confocal images (for Fig S4A ), the light intensity was controlled to further minimize photobleaching. Most importantly, there is an evidence of slow rise to the 2nd peak in Fig S4B. The first peak, quiescence and slow rise to second peak are evident.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Scientific recommendations:

      - Although Fig 4A clearly shows that light stimulation has an influence on the dynamics of cell membrane potential in the biofilm, it is important to rule out the contribution of variations in environmental parameters. I understand that for technical reasons, the flow of fresh medium must be stopped during image acquisition. Therefore, I suggest performing control experiments, where the flow is stopped before image acquisition (15min, 30min, 45min, and 1h before). If there is no significant contribution from environmental variations (pH, RedOx), the dynamics of the electrical response should be superimposed whatever the delay between stopping the flow stop and switching on the light.

      In this current research study, we were focused on studying how E. coli cells and biofilms react to blue light stress via their membrane potential dynamics. This involved growing the cells and biofilms, stopping the media flow and obtaining data immediately. We believe that stopping the flow not only helped us to manage data acquisition, it also helped us reduce the effect of environmental factors. In our future study we will expand the work to include how the membrane potential dynamics evolve in the presence of changing environmental factors for example such induced by stopping the flow at varied times.

      - Since TMRM signal exhibits a linear increase after the first response peak (Supplementary Figure 1D), I recommend mitigating the statement at line 78.

      - To improve the spatial analysis of the electrical response, I suggest plotting kymographs of the intensity profiles across the biofilm. I have plotted this kymograph for Video S3 and it appears that there is no electrical propagation for the second peak. In addition, the authors should provide technical details of how R^2(t) is measured in the first regime (Figure 7E).

      See the dedicated simulation article for more details. https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2023.11.17.567515v1

      - Line 152: To assess the variability of the latency, the authors should consider measuring the variance divided by the mean instead of SD, which may depend on the average value.

      We are happy with our current use of standard error on the standard deviation. It shows what we claim to be true.

      - Line 154-155: To truly determine whether the amplitude of the "action potential" is independent of biofilm size, the authors should not normalise the signals.

      Good point. We qualitatively compared both normalized and unnormalized data. Recent electrical impedance spectroscopy measurements (unpublished) indicate that the electrical activity is an extensive quantity i.e. it scales with the size of the biofilms.

      - To precise the role of K+ in the habituation response, I suggest using valinomycin at sub-inhibitory concentrations (10µM). Besides, the high concentration of CCCP used in this study completely inhibits cell activity. Not surprisingly, no electrical response to light stimulation was observed in the presence of CCCP. Finally, the Kch complementation experiment exhibits a "drop after the first peak" on a single point. It would be more convincing to increase the temporal resolution (1min->10s) to show that there is indeed a first and a second peak.

      An interesting experiment for the future.

      - Line 237-238: There are only two points suggesting that the dynamics of hyperpolarization are faster at higher irradiance(Fig 4A). The authors should consider adding a third intermediate point at 17µW/mm^2 to confirm the statement made in this sentence.

      Multiple repeats were performed. We are confident of the robustness of our data.

      - Line 249 + Fig 4E: It seems that the data reported on Fig 4E are extracted from Fig 4D. If this is indeed the case, the data should be normalised by the total population size to compare survival probabilities under the two conditions. It would also be great to measure these probabilities (for WT and ∆kch) in the presence of ROS scavengers.

      - To distinguish between model fitting and model predictions, the authors should clearly state which parameters are taken from the literature and which parameters are adjusted to fit the experimental data.

      - Supplementary Figure 4A: why can't we see any wavefront in this series of images?

      For the experimental data, the wavefront was analyzed by employing the imaris software. We systematically created a ROI with a curved geometry within the confocal stack (the biofilm). The fluorescence of ThT was traced along the surface of the curved geometry was analyzed along the z-axis.

      - Fig 7B: Could the authors explain why the plateau is higher in the simulations than in the biofilm experiments? Could they add noise on the firing activities?

      See the dedicated Martorelli modelling article. In general we would need to approach stochastic Hodgkin-Huxley modelling and the fluorescence data (and electrical impedance spectroscopy data) presented does not have extensive noise (due to collective averaging over many bacteria cells).

      - Supplementary Figure 4B: Why can't we see the second peak in confocal images?

      The second peak is present although not as robust as in Fig 2B. The confocal images were obtained with a laser source. Therefore we tried to create a balance between applying sufficient light stress on the bacterial cells and mitigating photobleaching.

      Editing recommendations:

      The editing recommendations below has been applied where appropriate

      - Many important technical details are missing (e.g. R^2, curvature, and 445nm irradiance measurements). Error bars are missing from most graphs. The captions should clearly indicate if these are single-cell or biofilm experiments, strain name, illumination conditions, number of experiments, SD, or SE. Please indicate on all panels of all figures in the main text and in the supplements, which are the conditions: single cell vs. biofilm, strains, medium, centrifugal vs centripetal etc..., where relevant. Please also draw error bars everywhere.

      We have now made appropriate changes. We specifically use cells when we were dealing with single cells and biofilms when we worked on biofilms. We decided to describe the strain name either on the panel or the image description.

      - Line 47-51: The way the paragraph is written suggests that no coordinated electrical oscillations have been observed in Gram-negative biofilms. However, Hennes et al (referenced as 57 in this manuscript) have shown that a wave of hyperpolarized cells propagates in Neisseria gonorrhoea colony, which is a Gram-negative bacterium.

      We are now aware of this work. It was not published when we first submitted our work and the authors claim the waves of activity are due to ROS diffusion NOT propagating waves of ions (coordinated electrical wavefronts).

      - Line 59: "stressor" -> "stress" or "perturbation".

      The correction has been made.

      - Line 153: Please indicate in the Material&Methods how the size of the biofilm is measured.

      The biofilm size was obtained using BiofilmQ and the step by step guide for using BiofilmQ were stated..

      - Figure 2A: Please provide associated brightfield images to locate bacteria.

      - Line 186: Please remove "wavefront" from the caption. Fig2B only shows the average signal as a function of time.

      This correction has been implemented.

      - Fig 3B,C: Please indicate single cell and biofilm on the panels and also WT and ∆kch.

      - Line 289: I suggest adding "in single cell experiments" to the title of this section.

      - Fig 5A: blue light is always present at regular time intervals during regime I and II. The presence of blue light only in regime I could be misleading.

      - Fig 5C: The curve in Fig 5D seems to correspond to the biofilm case. The curve given by the model, should be compared with the average curve presented in Fig 1D.

      - Fig 6A, B, and C: These figures could be moved to supplements.

      - Line 392: Replace "turgidity" with "turgor pressure".

      - Fig 7C,E: Please use a log-log scale to represent these data and indicate the line of slope 1.

      - Fig 7E: The x-axis has been cropped.

      - Please provide a supplementary movie for the data presented in Fig 7E.

      - Line 455: E. Coli biofilms do not express ThT.

      - Line 466: "\gamma is the anomalous exponent". Please remove anomalous (\gamma can equal 1 at this stage).

      - Line 475: Please replace "section" with "projection".

      - Line 476: Please replace "spatiotemporal" with "temporal". There is no spatial dependency in either figure.

      - Line 500: Please define Eikonal approximation.

      - Fig 8 could be moved to supplements.

      - Line 553: "predicted" -> "predict".

      - Line 593: Could the authors explain why their model offers much better quantitative agreement?

      - Line 669: What does "universal" mean in that context?

      - Line 671: A volume can be pipetted but not a concentration.

      - Line 676: Are triplicates technical or biological replicates?

      - Sup Fig1: Please use minutes instead of seconds in panel A.

      - Model for membrane dynamics: "The fraction of time the Q+ channel is open" -> "The dynamics of Q+ channel activity can be written". Ditto for K+ channel...

      - Model for membrane dynamics: "the term ... is a threshold-linear". This function is not linear at all. Why is it called linear? Also, please describe what \sigma is.

      - ABFDF model: "releasing a given concentration" -> "releasing a local concentration" or "a given number" but it's not \sigma anymore. Besides, this \sigma is unlikely related to the previous \sigma used in the model of membrane potential dynamics in single cells. Please consider renaming one or the other. Also, ions are referred to as C+ in the text and C in equation 8. Am I missing something?

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I have included all my comments as one review. I have done so, despite the fact that some minor comments could have gone into this section, because I decided to review each Result section. I thus felt that not writing it as one review might be harder to follow. I have however highlighted which comments are minor suggestions or where I felt corrections.

      However, while I am happy with all my comments being public, given their nature I think they should be shown to authors first. Perhaps the authors want to go over them and think about it before deciding if they are happy for their manuscript to be published along with these comments, or not. I will highlight this in an email to the editor. I question whether in this case, given that I am raising major issues, publishing both the manuscript and the comments is the way to go as I think it might just generate confusion among the audience.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I was unable to find any legends for any of the supplemental videos in my review materials, and I could not open supplemental video 5.

      I made some comments in the public review about the analysis and interpretation of the time-to-fire data. One of the other challenges in this data set is that the time resolution is limited- it seems that a large proportion of cells have already fired after a single acquisition frame. It would be ideal to increase the time resolution on this measurement to improve precision. This could be done by imaging more quickly, but that would perhaps necessitate more blue light exposure; an alternative is to do this experiment under lower blue light irradiance where the first spike time is increased (Figure 4A).

      In the public review, I mentioned the possible impact of high membrane potential on PI permeability. To address this, the experiment could be repeated with other stains, or the viability of blue light-treated cells could be addressed more directly by outgrowth or colony-forming unit assays.

      In the public review, I mentioned the possible combined toxicity of ThT and blue light. Live/dead experiments after blue light exposure with and without ThT could be used to test for such effects, and/or the growth curve experiment in Figure 1F could be repeated with blue light exposure at a comparable irradiance used in the experiment.

      Throughout the paper and figure legends, it would help to have more methodological details in the main text, especially those that are critical for the interpretation of the experiment. The experimental details in the methods section are nicely described, but the data analysis section should be expanded significantly.

      At the end of the results section, the authors suggest a critical biofilm size of only 4 µm for wavefront propagation (not much larger than a single cell!). The authors show responses for various biofilm sizes in Fig. 2C, but these are all substantially larger. Are there data for cell clusters above and below this size that could support this claim more directly?

      The authors mention image registration as part of their analysis pipeline, but the 3D data sets in Video S6B and Fig. S4A do not appear to be registered- were these registered prior to the velocity analysis reported in Fig. 8?

      One of the most challenging claims to demonstrate in this paper is that these membrane potential wavefronts are involved in coordinating a large, biofilm-scale response to blue light. One possible way to test this might be to repeat the Live/Dead experiment in planktonic culture or the single-cell condition. If the protection from blue light specifically emerges due to coordinated activity of the biofilm, the Kch mutant would not be expected to show a change in Live/Dead staining in non-biofilm conditions.

      Line 140: How is "mature biofilm" defined? Also on this same line, what does "spontaneous" mean here?

      Line 151: "much smaller": Given that the reported time for 3D biofilms is 2.73 {plus minus} 0.85 min and in microclusters is 3.27 {plus minus} 1.77 min, this seems overly strong.

      Line 155: How is "biofilm density" characterized? Additionally, the data in Figure 2C are presented in distance units (µm), but the text refers to "areal coverage"- please define the meaning of these distance units in the legend and/or here in the text (is this the average radius?).

      Lines 161-162: These claims seem strong given the data presented before, and the logic is not very explicit. For example, in the second sentence, the idea that this signaling is used to "coordinate long-range responses to light stress" does not seem strongly evidenced at this point in the paper. What is meant by a long-range response to light stress- are there processes to respond to light that occur at long-length scales (rather than on the single-cell scale)? If so, is there evidence that these membrane potential changes could induce these responses? Please clarify the logic behind these conclusions.

      Lines 235-236: In the lower irradiance conditions, the responses are slower overall, and it looks like the ThT intensity is beginning to rise at the end of the measurement. Could a more prominent second peak be observed in these cases if the measurement time was extended?

      Line 242-243: The overall trajectories of extracellular potassium are indeed similar, but the kinetics of the second peak of potassium are different than those observed by ThT (it rises some minutes earlier)- is this consistent with the idea that Kch is responsible for that peak? Additionally, the potassium dynamics also reflect the first peak- is this surprising given that the Kch channel has no effect on this peak?

      Line 255-256: Again, this seems like a very strong claim. There are several possible interpretations of the catalase experiment (which should be discussed); this experiment perhaps suggests that ROS impacts membrane potential, but does not obviously indicate that these membrane potential fluctuations mitigate ROS levels or help the cells respond to ROS stress. The loss of viability in the ∆kch mutant might indicate a link between these membrane potential experiments and viability, but it is hard to interpret without the no-light control I mention in the public review.

      Lines 313-315: "The model predicts... the external light stress". Please clarify this section. Where this prediction arises from in the modeling work? Second, I am not sure what is meant by "modulates the light stress" or "keeps the cell dynamics robust to the intensity of external light stress" (especially since the dynamics clearly vary with irradiance, as seen in Figure 4A).

      Line 322: I am not sure what "handles the ROS by adjusting the profile of the membrane potential dynamics" means. What is meant by "handling" ROS? Is the hypothesis that membrane potential dynamics themselves are protective against ROS, or that they induce a ROS-protective response downstream, or something else? Later in lines 327-8 the authors write that changes in the response to ROS in the model agree with the hypothesis, but just showing that ROS impacts the membrane potential does not seem to demonstrate that this has a protective effect against ROS.

      Line 365-366: This section title seems confusing- mechanosensitive ion channels totally ablate membrane potential dynamics, they don't have a specific effect on the first hyperpolarization event. The claim that mechanonsensitive ion channels are specifically involved in the first event also appears in the abstract.

      Also, the apparent membrane potential is much lower even at the start of the experiment in these mutants- is this expected? This seems to imply that these ion channels also have a blue light independent effect.

      Lines 368, 371: Should be VGCCs rather than VGGCs.

      Line 477: I believe the figure reference here should be to Figure 7B, not 6B.

      Line 567-568: "The initial spike is key to registering the presence of the light stress." What is the evidence for this claim?

      Line 592-594: "We have presented much better quantitative agreement..." This is a strong claim; it is not immediately evident to me that the agreement between model and prediction is "much better" in this work than in the cited work. The model in Figure 4 of reference 57 seems to capture the key features of their data. Clarification is needed about this claim.

      Line 613: "...strains did not have any additional mutations." This seems to imply that whole genome sequencing was performed- is this the case?

      Line 627: I believe this should refer to Figure S2A-B rather than S1.

      Line 719: What percentage of cells did not hyperpolarize in these experiments?

      Lines 751-754: As I mentioned above, significant detail is missing here about how these measurements were made. How is "radius" defined in 3D biofilms like the one shown in Video S6B, which looks very flat? What is meant by the distance from the substrate to the core, since usually in this biofilm geometry, the core is directly on the substrate? Most importantly, this only describes the process of sectioning the data- how were these sections used to compute the velocity of ThT signal propagation?

      I also have some comments specifically on the figure presentation:

      Normalization from 0 to 1 has been done in some of the ThT traces in the paper, but not all. The claims in the paper would be easiest to evaluate if the non-normalized data were shown- this is important for the interpretation of some of the claims.

      Some indication of standard deviation (error bars or shading) should be added to all figures where mean traces are plotted.

      Throughout the paper, I am a bit confused by the time axis; the data consistently starts at 1 minute. This is not intuitive to me, because it seems that the blue light being applied to the cells is also the excitation laser for ThT- in that case, shouldn't the first imaging frame be at time 0 (when the blue light is first applied)? Or is there an additional exposure of blue light 1 minute before imaging starts? This is consequential because it impacts the measured time to the first spike. (Additionally, all of the video time stamps start at 0).

      Please increase the size of the scale bars and bar labels throughout, especially in Figure 2A and S4A.

      In Figure 1B and D, it would help to decrease the opacity on the individual traces so that more of them can be discerned. It would also improve clarity to have data from the different experiments shown with different colored lines, so that variability between experiments can be clearly visualized.

      Results in Figure 1E would be easier to interpret if the frequency were normalized to total N. It is hard to tell from this graph whether the edges and bin widths are the same between the data sets, but if not, they should be. Also, it would help to reduce the opacity of the sparse cell data set so that the full microcluster data set can be seen as well.

      Biofilm images are shown in Figures 2A, S3A, and Video S3- these are all of the same biofilm. Why not take the opportunity to show different experimental replicates in these different figures? The same goes for Figure S4A and Video S6B, which again are of the same biofilm.

      Figure 2C would be much easier to read if the curves were colored in order of their size; the same is true for Figure 4A and irradiance.

      The complementation data in Figure S3D should be moved to the main text figure 3 alongside the data about the corresponding knockout to make it easier to compare the curves.

      Fig.ure S3E: Is the Y-axis in this graph mislabeled? It is labeled as ThT fluorescence, but it seems that it is reporting fluorescence from the calcium indicator?

      Video S6B is very confusing - why does the video play first forwards and then backwards? Unless I am looking very carefully at the time stamps it is easy to misinterpret this as a rise in the intensity at the end of the experiment. Without a video legend, it's hard to understand this, but I think it would be much more straightforward to interpret if it only played forward. (Also, why is this video labeled 6B when there is no video 6A?)

  2. Oct 2025
    1. Here is no water but only rock

      Eliot constantly mentions tarot cards and myths with themes of fertility and sterility. There is also a big contrast between water and fire. In a poem filled with so many symbols and elements indicating destruction and//or a form of darkness, water has served as a palette cleanser and a symbol of life, spirit, and purification. And so, it is interesting how here, there is "no water but only rock." Eliot later writes on lines 338-339, "If there were only water amongst the rock / Dead mountain mouth of carious teeth that cannot spit." This image perfectly encapsulates the sterility in this section and the true "waste land." It's also interesting how the title of this section is literally "What the Thunder Said," and yet, there is only "dry sterile thunder without rain" (line 342). In Themis, Harrison explains that thunder was not just a sound, but a manifestation of divine power, or mana, a force that brought a life-giving rain. In contrast, the thunder in this section is empty and a form of revelation without its substance. It promises meaning but delivers none. In this way, it mirrors a modern world where ancient symbols have lost their power. Finally, from Hermit Thrush, Eliot states that the hermit thrush was "the sweetest singer of all American birds." Its song is not one of mere prettiness, but of "tranquil clearness of tone and exalted serenity." By introducing it here, Eliot holds up an ideal of pure, natural, spiritual music, a stark contrast to the "dry grass singing" and the "cicada." The thrush's song is inseparable from the "sound of water over a rock." The "Drip drop drip drop drop drop drop" is both the sound of water and the rhythm of the bird's song. This fusion creates a single, transcendent symbol for grace, creativity, and spiritual renewal.

    2. Here one can neither stand nor lie nor sit

      The final lines of Keats’ poem “What the Thrush Said” –“He who saddens/At thought of idleness cannot be idle,/And he's awake who thinks himself asleep” touches on, like many other past sources, a human concern with the senses. In my annotation on the “Fire Sermon Discourse" and Augustine’s confessions, I said that “to unite humanity, we must relinquish that which makes us so, embracing divinity and the word of our gods, though they may present differently across cultures.” taking the common thread between the two schools of thought as a divergence from our human-ness. Unlike these sources, however, Keats almost celebrates one's connection with their senses. Rather than an enforcing of separation (through fire sermons and such), where true spirituality can only be reached by purging oneself of all things that tie them to their humanity, Keats equates one's sense of purpose with emotions, with the lines “He who saddens/At thought of idleness cannot be idle,” suggesting that by existing, by living through one's emotions, that is proof enough of life and connection. Furthermore, he celebrates human knowledge in the lines “O fret not after knowledge -- I have none,/And yet the Evening listens.” In this line Keats finds himself celebrating that which makes us human. Though the speaker “I” doesn’t have all-encompassing knowledge and has not sacrificed themself to the divine, “the Evening listens.” The dual powerlessness and power held by humanity in this moment showcases the human’s place in existence. In a poem harkening the arrival of spring, after “the Winter's wind,” Keats doesn’t ask anything of humanity besides existence, allowing the world to revive itself while we sit and let the seasons change. Instead, taking direct inspiration from Keats in his own “What the Thunder Said,” Eliot places humanity back into a dead waste land, where there “is no water but only rock.” While humanity is passive, though they lack knowledge, they are celebrated with the arrival of spring in Keats’ work. Eliot’s world has no hope of spring, with not a drop of water in sight. Human agency is revoked, and they “can neither stand nor lie nor sit.” This “can” added in this line seems to be at odds with the “He who saddens/At thought of idleness cannot be idle,” of Keats. Though in both cases, there is the sense of inability to be idle. (with the definition of idle being dually “without purpose or effect; pointless” and “avoiding work; lazy). While in Keats’ case, he suggests that, by having emotion, even if lamenting on laziness, one can never truly be “pointless,” Eliot’s humans can never be idle, though perhaps lacking purpose, because they can never avoid the work of escaping or exploring the waste land.

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      (1) Significance of the findings:

      Cell-to-cell communication is essential for higher functions in bacterial biofilms. Electrical signals have proven effective in transmitting signals across biofilms. These signals are then used to coordinate cellular metabolisms or to increase antibiotic tolerance. Here, the authors have reported for the first time coordinated oscillation of membrane potential in E. coli biofilms that may have a functional role in photoprotection.

      (2) Strengths of the manuscript:

      - The authors report original data.<br /> - For the first time, they showed that coordinated oscillations in membrane potential occur in E. Coli biofilms.<br /> - The authors revealed a complex two-phase dynamic involving distinct molecular response mechanisms.<br /> - The authors developed two rigorous models inspired by 1) Hodgkin-Huxley model for the temporal dynamics of membrane potential and 2) Fire-Diffuse-Fire model for the propagation of the electric signal.<br /> - Since its discovery by comparative genomics, the Kch ion channel has not been associated with any specific phenotype in E. coli. Here, the authors proposed a functional role for the putative gated-voltage-gated K+ ion channel (Kch channel) : enhancing survival under photo-toxic conditions.

      (3) Weakness:

      - Contrarily to what is stated in the abstract, the group of B. Maier has already reported collective electrical oscillations in the Gram-negative bacterium Neisseria gonorrhoeae (Hennes et al., PLoS Biol, 2023).<br /> - The data presented in the manuscript are not sufficient to conclude on the photo-protective role of the Kch channel. The authors should perform the appropriate control experiments related to Fig4D,E, i.e. reproduce these experiments without ThT to rule out possible photo-conversion effects on ThT that would modify its toxicity. In addition, it looks like the data reported on Fig 4E are extracted from Fig 4D. If this is indeed the case, it would be more conclusive to report the percentage of PI-positive cells in the population for each condition. This percentage should be calculated independently for each replicate. The authors should then report the average value and standard deviation of the percentage of dead cells for each condition.<br /> - Although Fig 4A clearly shows that light stimulation has an influence on the dynamics of ThT signal in the biofilm, it is important to rule out possible contributions of other environmental variations that occur when the flow is stopped at the onset of light stimulation. I understand that for technical reasons, the flow of fresh medium must be stopped for the sake of imaging. Therefore, I suggest to perform control experiments consisting in stopping the flow at different time intervals before image acquisition (30min or 1h before). If there is no significant contribution from environmental variations due to medium perfusion arrest, the dynamics of ThT signal must be unchanged regardless of the delay between flow stop and the start of light stimulation.<br /> - To precise the role of K+ in the habituation response, I suggest using the ionophore valinomycin at sub-inhibitory concentrations (5 or 10µM). It should abolish the habituation response. In addition, the Kch complementation experiment exhibits a sharp drop after the first peak but on a single point. It would be more convincing to increase the temporal resolution (1min->10s) to show that there are indeed a first and a second peak. Finally, the high concentration (100µM) of CCCP used in this study completely inhibits cell activity. Therefore, it is not surprising that no ThT dynamics was observed upon light stimulation at such concentration of CCCP.<br /> - Since TMRM signal exhibits a linear increase after the first response peak (Supp Fig1D), I recommend to mitigate the statement at line 78.<br /> - Electrical signal propagation is an important aspect of the manuscript. However, a detailed quantitative analysis of the spatial dynamics within the biofilm is lacking. At minima, I recommend to plot the spatio-temporal diagram of ThT intensity profile averaged along the azimuthal direction in the biofilm. In addition, it is unclear if the electrical signal propagates within the biofilm during the second peak regime, which is mediated by the Kch channel: I have plotted the spatio-temporal diagram for Video S3 and no electrical propagation is evident at the second peak. In addition, the authors should provide technical details of how R^2(t) is measured in the first regime (Fig 7E).<br /> - In the series of images presented in supplementary Figure 4A, no wavefront is apparent. Although the microscopy technics used in this figure differs from other images (like in Fig2), the wavefront should be still present. In addition, there is no second peak in confocal images as well (Supp Fig4B) .<br /> - Many important technical details are missing (e.g. biofilm size, R^2, curvature and 445nm irradiance measurements). The description of how these quantitates are measured should be detailed in the Material & Methods section.<br /> - Fig 5C: The curve in Fig 5D seems to correspond to the biofilm case. Since the model is made for single cells, the curve obtained by the model should be compared with the average curve presented in Fig 1B (i.e. single cell experiments).<br /> - For clarity, I suggest to indicate on the panels if the experiments concern single cell or biofilm experiments. Finally, please provide bright-field images associated to ThT images to locate bacteria.<br /> - In Fig 7B, the plateau is higher in the simulations than in the biofilm experiments. The authors should add a comment in the paper to explain this discrepancy.

  3. Sep 2025
    1. An Antidote to Injustice by Jennifer M Morton Picture yourself as a young mother with two children. You enrol in university to obtain a bachelor’s degree, hoping to give yourself a better chance at a job that pays a living wage. Maybe you receive government loans to pay for tuition, and rely on your family’s help, but you still don’t have enough to pay for living expenses and childcare. So, you continue working at a job that pays slightly above minimum wage while taking a full load of courses. Every day you wake up early to get the children ready for school and commute an hour or more to university. After class, you pick up your children from school. If you’re lucky, you can drop them off with a relative while you go to work. By the time you return home in the evening, you are tired, but still have many pages to read and assignments to complete. This is your gruelling daily routine. Now, ask yourself: what could philosophy do for you?

      Reading the context of this article, we understand that we are acknowledging an every day circumstance of a human in the United States. The question at the end of paragraph one is great. What could philosophy do for you? Philosophy allows people to think accurately with self-mentoring. If parents with poor circumstances wants to get a University degree, they have to want it. Not just a little, but the most effort they can imagine. It is somewhat of a privilege to be in this space of mind, as this where you can create the sparks for the fire. It goes along with the saying, "If you are not changing it, you are choosing it." If a mother ends up not being able to go to University, she is choosing not to go to University.

  4. Aug 2025
    1. Author response:

      (1) Explore the temporal component of neural responses (instead of collapsing responses to a single number, i.e., the average response over 4s), and determine which of the three models can recapitulate the observed dynamics.

      (2) Expand the polar plot visualization to show all three slopes (changes in responses across all three successive concentrations) instead of only two slopes.

      (3) Attempt to collect and analyze, from published papers, data of: (a) first-order neuron responses to odors to determine the role of first-order inhibition towards generating non-monotonic responses, and (b) PN responses in Drosophila to properly compare with corresponding first-order neuron responses.

      (4) Further discuss: (a) why the brain may need to encode absolute concentration, (b) the distinction between non-monotonic responses and cross-over responses, and (c) potential limitations of the primacy model.

      (5) Expand the divisive normalization model by evaluating different values of k and R, and study the effects of divisive normalization on tufted cells.

      (6) Add discussion of other potential inhibitory mechanisms that could contribute towards the observed effects.

      Reviewer #1:

      The article starts from the premise that animals need to know the absolute concentration of an odor over many log units, but the need for this isn't obvious. The introduction cites an analogy to vision and audition. These are cases where we know for a fact that the absolute intensity of the stimulus is not relevant. Instead, sensory perception relies on processing small differences in intensity across space or time. And to maintain that sensitivity to small differences, the system discards the stimulus baseline. Humans are notoriously bad at judging the absolute light level. That information gets discarded even before light reaches the retina, namely through contraction of the pupil. Similarly, it seems plausible that a behavior like olfactory tracking relies on sensing small gradients across time (when weaving back and forth across the track) or space (across nostrils). It is important that the system function over many log units of concentration (e.g., far and close to a source) but not that it accurately represents what that current concentration is [see e.g., Wachowiak et al, 2025 Recalibrating Olfactory Neuroscience..].

      We thank the Reviewer for the insightful input and agree that gradients across time and space are important for various olfactory behaviors, such as tracking. At the same time, we think that absolute concentration is also needed for two reasons. First, in order to extract changes in concentration, the absolute concentration needs to be normalized out; i.e., change needs to be encoded with respect to some baseline, which is what divisive normalization computes. Second, while it is true that representing the exact number of odor molecules present is not important, this number directly relates to distance from the odor source, which does provide ethological value (e.g., is the tiger 100m or 1000m away?). Indeed, our decoding experiments focused on discriminating relative, and not on absolute, concentrations by classifying between each pair of concentrations (i.e., relative distances), which is effectively an assessment of the gradient. In our revision, we will make all of these points clearer.

      Still, many experiments in olfactory research have delivered square pulses of odor at concentrations spanning many log units, rather than the sorts of stimuli an animal might encounter during tracking. Even within that framework, though, it doesn't seem mysterious anymore how odor identity and odor concentration are represented differently. For example, Stopfer et al 2003 showed that the population response of locust PNs traces a dynamic trajectory. Trajectories for a given odor form a manifold, within which trajectories for different concentrations are distinct by their excursions on the manifold. To see this, one must recognize that the PN responds to an odor pulse with a time-varying firing rate, that different PNs have different dynamics, and that the dynamics can change with concentration. This is also well recognized in the mammalian systems. Much has been written about the topic of dynamic coding of identity and intensity - see the reviews of Laurent (2002) and Uchida (2014).

      Given the above comments on the dynamics of odor responses in first- and second-order neurons, it seems insufficient to capture the response of a neuron with a single number. Even if one somehow had to use a single number, the mean firing rate during the odor pulse may not be the best choice. For example, the rodent mitral cells fire in rhythm with the animal's sniffing cycle, and certain odors will just shift the phase of the rhythm without changing the total number of spikes (see e.g., Fantana et al, 2008). During olfactory search or tracking, the sub-second movements of the animal in the odor landscape get superposed on the sniffing cycle. Given all this, it seems unlikely that the total number of spikes from a neuron in a 4-second period is going to be a relevant variable for neural processing downstream.

      To our knowledge, it is not well understood how downstream brain regions read out mitral cell responses to guide olfactory behavior. The olfactory bulb projects to more than a dozen brain regions, and different regions could decode signals in different ways. We focused on the mean response because it is a simple, natural construct.

      The datasets we analyzed may not include all relevant timing information; for example, the mouse data is from calcium imaging studies that did not track sniff timing. Nonetheless, we plan to address this comment within our framework by binning time into smaller-sized windows (e.g., 0-0.2s, 0.2-0.4s, etc.) and repeating our analysis for each of these windows. Specifically, we will determine how each normalization method fares in recapitulating statistics of the population responses of each window, beyond simply assessing the population mean.

      Much of the analysis focuses on the mean activity of the entire population. Why is this an interesting quantity? Apparently, the mean stays similar because some neurons increase and others decrease their firing rate. It would be more revealing, perhaps, to show the distribution of firing rates at different concentrations and see how that distribution is predicted by different models of normalization. This could provide a stronger test than just the mean.

      We agree that mean activity is only one measure to summarize a rich data set and will perform the suggested analysis.

      The question "if concentration information is discarded in second-order neurons, which exclusively transmit odor information to the rest of the brain, how does the brain support olfactory behaviors, such as tracking and navigation?" is really not an open question anymore. For example, reference 23 reports in the abstract that "Odorant concentration had no systematic effect on spike counts, indicating that rate cannot encode intensity. Instead, odor intensity can be encoded by temporal features of the population response. We found a subpopulation of rapid, largely concentration-invariant responses was followed by another population of responses whose latencies systematically decreased at higher concentrations."

      Primacy coding does provide one plausible mechanism to decode concentration. Our manuscript demonstrated how such a code could emerge in second-order neurons with the help of divisive normalization, though it does require maintaining at least partial rank invariance across concentrations, which may not be robust. We also showed how concentration could be decoded via spike rates, even if average rates are constant, which provides an alternative hypothesis to that of ref 23.

      Further, ref 23 only considers the piriform cortex, which, as mentioned above, is one of many targets of the olfactory bulb, and it remains unclear what the decoding mechanisms are of each of these targets. In addition, work from the same authors of ref 23 found multiple potential decoding strategies in the piriform cortex itself, including changes in firing rate (see Fig. 2E of ref. 23 - Bolding & Franks, 2017; as well as Fig. 4 in Roland et al., 2017).

      It would be useful to state early in the manuscript what kinds of stimuli are being considered and how the response of a neuron is summarized by one number. There are many alternative ways to treat both stimuli and responses.

      We will add this explanation to the manuscript.

      "The change in response across consecutive concentration levels may not be robust due to experimental noise and the somewhat limited range of concentrations sampled": Yes, a number of the curves just look like "no response". It would help the reader to show some examples of raw data, e.g. the time course of one neuron's firing rate to 4 concentrations, and for the authors to illustrate how they compress those responses into single numbers.

      We agree and will add this information to the manuscript.

      "We then calculated the angle between these two slopes for each neuron and plotted a polar histogram of these angles." The methods suggest that this angle is the arctan of the ratio of the two slopes in the response curve. A ratio of 2 would result from a slope change from 0.0001 to 0.0002 (i.e., virtually no change in slope) or from 1 to 2 (a huge change). Those are completely different response curves. Is it reasonable to lump them into the same bin of the polar plot? This seems an unusual way to illustrate the diversity of response curve shapes.

      We agree that the two changes in the reviewer’s example will be categorized in the same quadrant in our analysis. We did not focus on the absolute changes because our analysis covers many log ratios of concentrations. Instead, we focused on the relative shapes of the concentration response curves, and more specifically, the direction of the change (i.e., the sign of the slope). We will better motivate this style of analysis in the revision. Moreover, in response to comments by Reviewer 2, we will compare response shapes between all three successive levels of concentration changes, as opposed to only two levels.

      The Drosophila OSN data are passed through normalization models and then compared to locust PN data. This seems dangerous, as flies and locusts are separated by about 300 M years of evolution, and we don't know that fly PNs act like locust PNs. Their antennal lobe anatomy differs in many ways, as does the olfactory physiology. To draw any conclusions about a change in neural representation, it would be preferable to have OSN and PN data from the same species.

      We are in the process of requesting PN response data in Drosophila from groups that have collected such data and will repeat the analysis once we get access to the data.

      One conclusion is that divisive normalization could account for some of the change in responses from receptors to 2nd order neurons. This seems to be well appreciated already [e.g., Olsen 2010, Papadopoulou 2011, minireview in Hong & Wilson 2013].

      While we agree that these manuscripts do study the effects of divisive normalization in insects and fish, here we show that this computation also generalizes to rodents. In addition, these previous studies do not focus on divisive normalization’s role towards concentration encoding/decoding, which is our focus. We will clarify this difference in the revision.

      Another claim is that subtractive normalization cannot perform that function. What model was used for subtractive normalization is unclear (there is an error in the Methods). It would be interesting if there were a categorical difference between divisive and subtractive normalization.

      We apologize for the mistake in the subtractive normalization equation and will correct it. Thank you for catching it.

      Looking closer at the divisive normalization model, it really has two components: (a) the "lateral inhibition" by which a neuron gets suppressed if other neurons fire (here scaled by the parameter k) , and (b) a nonlinear sigmoid transformation (determined by the parameters n and sigma). Both lateral inhibition and nonlinearity are known to contribute to decorrelation in a neural population (e.g., Pitkow 2012). The "intraglomerular gain control" contains only the nonlinearity. The "subtractive normalization" we don't know. But if one wanted to put divisive and subtractive inhibition on the same footing, one should add a sigmoid nonlinearity in both cases.

      Our intent was not to place all the methods on the “same footing” but rather to isolate the two primary components of normalization methods – non-linearity and lateral inhibition – and determine which of these, and in which combination, could generate the desired effects. Divisive normalization incorporates both components, whereas intraglomerular gain control and subtractive normalization only incorporate one of these components. We will clarify this reasoning in the revision.

      The response models could be made more realistic in other ways. For example, in both locusts and fish, the 2nd order neurons get inputs from multiple receptor types; presumably, that will affect their response functions. Also, lateral inhibition can take quite different forms. In locusts, the inhibitory neurons seem to collect from many glomeruli. But in rats, the inhibition by short axon cells may originate from just a few sparse glomeruli, and those might be different for every mitral cell (Fantana 2008).

      We thank the Reviewer for the input. Instead of fixing k for all second-order neurons, we will apply different k values for different neurons. We will also systematically vary the percentage of neurons used for the divisive normalization calculation in the denominator, and determine the regime under which the effects experimentally observed are reproducible. This approach takes into account the scenario that inter-glomerular inhibitory interactions are sparse.

      There are questions raised by the following statements: "traded-off energy for faster and finer concentration discrimination" and "an additional type of second-order neuron (tufted cells) that has evolved in land vertebrates and that outperforms mitral cells in concentration encoding" and later "These results suggest a trade-off between concentration decoding and normalization processes, which prevent saturation and reduce energy consumption.". Are the tufted cells inferior to the mitral cells in any respect? Do they suffer from saturation at high concentration? And do they then fail in their postulated role for odor tracking? If not, then what was the evolutionary driver for normalization in the mitral cell pathway? Certainly not lower energy consumption (50,000 mitral cells = 1% of rod photoreceptors, each of which consumes way more energy than a mitral cell).

      The question of what mitral cells are “good for”, compared to tufted cells, remains unclear in our view. We speculate that mitral cells provide superior context-dependent processing and are better for determining stimuli-reward contingencies, but this remains far from settled experimentally.

      We believe the mitral cell pathway evolved earlier than tufted cells, since the former appear akin to projection neurons in insects. Nonetheless, we agree that differences in energy consumption are unlikely to be the primary distinguishing factor, and in the revision, we will drop this argument.

      Reviewer #2:

      The main premise that divisive normalization generates this diversity of dose-response curves in the second-order neurons is a little problematic. … The analysis in [Figure 3] indicates that divisive normalization does what it is supposed to do, i.e., compresses concentration information and not alter the rank-order of neurons or the combinatorial patterns. Changes in the combinations of neurons activated with intensity arise directly from the fact that the first-order neurons did not have monotonic responses with odor intensity (i.e., crossovers). This was the necessary condition, and not the divisive normalization for changes in the combinatorial code. There seems to be a confusion/urge to attribute all coding properties found in the second-order neurons to 'divisive normalization.' If the input from sensory neurons is monotonic (i.e., no crossovers), then divisive normalization did not change the rank order, and the same combinations of neurons are activated in a similar fashion (same vector direction or combinatorial profile) to encode for different odor intensities. Concentration invariance is achieved, and concentration information is lost. However, when the first-order neurons are non-monotonic (i.e., with crossovers), that causes the second-order neurons to have different rank orders with different concentrations. Divisive normalization compresses information about concentrations, and rank-order differences preserve information about the odor concentration. Does this not mean that the non-monotonicity of sensory neuron response is vital for robustly maintaining information about odor concentration? Naturally, the question that arises is whether many of the important features of the second-order neuron's response simply seem to follow the input. Or is my understanding of the figures and the write-up flawed, and are there more ways in which divisive normalization contributes to reshaping the second-order neural response? This must be clarified. Lastly, the tufted cells in the mouse OB are also driven by this sensory input with crossovers. How does the OB circuit convert the input with crossovers into one that is monotonic with concentration? I think that is an important question that this computational effort could clarify.

      It appears that there is confusion about the definitions of “non-monotonicity” and “crossovers”.  These are two independent concepts – one does not necessarily lead to the other. Non-monotonicity concerns the response of a single neuron to different concentration levels. A neuron’s response is considered non-monotonic if its response goes up then down, or down then up, across increasing concentrations. A “cross-over” is defined based on the responses of multiple neurons. A cross-over occurs when the response of one neuron is lower than another neuron at one concentration, but higher than the other at a different concentration. For example, the responses of both neurons could increase monotonically with increasing concentration, but one neuron might start lower and grow faster, hence creating a cross-over. We will clarify this in the manuscript, which we believe will resolve the questions raised above.

      The way the decoding results and analysis are presented does not add a lot of information to what has already been presented. For example, based on the differences in rank-order with concentration, I would expect the combinatorial code to be different. Hence, a very simple classifier based on cosine or correlation distance would work well. However, since divisive normalization (DN) is applied, I would expect a simple classification scheme that uses the Euclidean distance metric to work equally as well after DN. Is this the case?

      Yes, we used a simple classification scheme, logistic regression with a linear kernel, which is essentially a Euclidean distance-based classification. This scheme works better for tufted cells because they are more monotonic; i.e., if neuron A and B both increase their responsiveness with concentration, then Euclidean distance would be fine. But if neuron A’s response amplitude goes up and neuron B’s response goes down – as often happens for mitral cells – then Euclidean distance does not work as well. We will add intuition about this in the manuscript.

      Leave-one-trial/sample-out seems too conservative. How robust are the combinatorial patterns across trials? Would just one or two training trials suffice for creating templates for robust classification? Based on my prior experience (https://elifesciences.org/reviewed-preprints/89330https://elifesciences.org/reviewed-preprints/89330), I do expect that the combinatorial patterns would be more robust to adaptation and hence also allow robust recognition of odor intensity across repeated encounters.

      As suggested, we will compute the correlation coefficient of the similarity of neural responses for each odor (across trials). We will repeat this analysis for both mitral and tufted cells. To determine the effect of adaptation, we will compute correlation coefficients of responses between the 1st and 2nd trials vs the 1st and final trial.

      Lastly, in the simulated data, since the affinity of the first-order sensory neurons to odorants is expected to be constant across concentration, and "Jaccard similarity between the sets of highest-affinity neurons for each pair of concentration levels was > 0.96," why would the rank-order change across concentration? DN should not alter the rank order.

      We agree that divisive normalization should not alter the rank order, but the rank order may change in first-order neurons, which carries through to second-order neurons. This confusion may be related to the one mentioned above re: cross-overs vs non-monotonicity. Moreover, in the simulated data (Fig. 4D-H), the Jaccard similarity was calculated based on only the 50 neurons with the highest affinity, not the entire population of neurons. As shown in Fig. 4H, most of the rank-order change happens in the remaining 150 neurons.

      Note that in response to a comment by Reviewer 3, we will change the presentation of Fig. 4H in the revision.

      If the set of early responders does change, how will the decoder need to change, and what precise predictions can be made that can be tested experimentally? The lack of exploration of this aspect of the results seems like a missed opportunity.

      In the Discussion, we wrote about how downstream circuits will need to learn which set of neurons are to be associated with each distinct concentration level. We will expand upon this point and include experimentally testable predictions.

      Based on the methods, for Figures 1 and 2, it appears the responses across time, trials, and odorants were averaged to get a single data point per neuron for each concentration. Would this averaging not severely dilute trends in the data? The one that particularly concerns me is the averaging across different odorants. If you do odor-by-odor analysis, is the flattening of second-order neural responses still observable? Because some odorants activate more globally and some locally, I would expect a wide variety of dose-response relationships that vary with odor identity (more compressed in second-order neurons, of course). It would be good to show some representative neural responses and show how the extracted values for each neuron are a faithful/good representation of its response variation across intensities.

      It appears there is some confusion here; we will clarify in the text and figure captions that we did not average across different odors in our analysis. We will also add figure panels showing some representative neural responses as suggested by the Reviewer.

      A lot of neurons seem to have responses that flat line closer to zero (both firing rate and dF/F in Figure 1). Are these responsive neurons? The mean dF/F also seems to hover not significantly above zero. Hence, I was wondering if the number of neurons is reducing the trend in the data significantly.

      Yes, if a neuron responds to at least one concentration level in at least 50% of the trials, it is considered responsive. So it is possible that some neurons respond to one concentration level and otherwise flatline near zero.  We will highlight a few example neurons to visualize this scenario.

      I did not fully understand the need to show the increase in the odor response across concentrations as a polar plot. I see potential issues with the same. For example, the following dose-response trend at four intensities (C4 being the highest concentration and C1 the lowest): response at C3 > response at C1 and response at C4 > response at C2. But response at C3 < response at C2. Hence, it will be in the top right segment of the polar plot. However, the responses are not monotonic with concentrations. So, I am not convinced that the polar plot is the right way to characterize the dose-response curves. Just my 2 cents.

      Your 2 cents are valuable! Thank you for raising this point. Instead of computing two slopes (C1-C3 and C2-C4), we will expand our analysis to include all three slopes (C1-C2, C2-C3, C3-C4). Consequently, there are 2^3 = 8 different response shapes, and we will list them and quantify the fraction of the responses that fall into each shape category.

      In many analyses, simulated data were used (Figures 3 and 4). However, there is no comparison of how well the simulated data fit the experimental data. For example, the Simulated 1st order neuron in Figure 3D does not show a change in rank-order for the first-order neuron. In Figure 3E, temporal response patterns in second-order neurons look unrealistic. Some objective comparison of simulated and experimental data would help bolster confidence in these results.

      We believe the Reviewer is referring to Figs. 4D and 4E, since Fig. 3D does not show a first-order neuron simulation, and there is no Fig 3E. In Fig. 4D there is no change of rank order because the simulation is for a single odor and single concentration level, and the change of rank-order (i.e., cross-overs) as we define occurs between concentration levels. We will clarify this in the manuscript.

      Reviewer #3:

      While the authors focus on concentration-dependent increases in first-order neuron activity, reflecting the majority of observed responses, recent work from the Imai group shows that odorants can also lead to direct first-order neuron inhibition (i.e., reduction in spontaneous activity), and within this subset, increasing odorant concentration tends to increase the degree of inhibition. Some discussion of these findings and how they may complement divisive normalization to contribute to the diverse second-order neuron concentration-dependence would be of interest and help expand the context of the current results.

      We thank the Reviewer for the suggestion. We will request datasets of first-order neuron responses from the groups who acquired them. We will analyze this data to determine the role of inhibition or antagonistic binding and quantify what percentage of first-order neurons respond less strongly with larger concentrations.

      Related to the above point, odorant-evoked inhibition of second-order neurons is widespread in mammalian mitral cells and significantly contributes to the flattened concentration-dependence of mitral cells at the population level. Such responses are clearly seen in Figure 1D. Some discussion of how odorant-evoked mitral cell inhibition may complement divisive normalization, and likewise relate to comparatively lower levels of odorant-evoked inhibition among tufted cells, would further expand the context of the current results. Toward this end, replication of analyses in Figures 1D and E following exclusion of mitral cell inhibitory responses would provide insight into the contribution of such inhibition to the flattening of the mitral cell population concentration dependence.

      We will perform the analysis suggested, specifically, we will set the negative mitral cell responses to 0 and assess whether the population mean remains flat.

      The idea of concentration-dependent crossover responses across the first-order population being required for divisive normalization to generate individually diverse concentration response functions across the second-order population is notable. The intuition of the crossover responses is that first-order neurons that respond most sensitively to any particular odorant (i.e., at the lowest concentration) respond with overall lower activity at higher concentrations than other first-order neurons less sensitively tuned to the odorant. Whether this is a consistent, generalizable property of odorant binding and first-order neuron responsiveness is not addressed by the authors, however. Biologically, one mechanism that may support such crossover events is intraglomerular presynaptic/feedback inhibition, which would be expected to increase with increasing first-order neuron activation such that the most-sensitively responding first-order neurons would also recruit the strongest inhibition as concentration increases, enabling other first-order neurons to begin to respond more strongly. Discussion of this and/or other biological mechanisms (e.g., first-order neuron depolarization block) supporting such crossover responses would strengthen these results.

      We thank the reviewer for providing additional mechanisms to consider. As suggested, we will add discussion of these alternatives to divisive normalization.

      It is unclear to what degree the latency analysis considered in Figures 4D-H works with the overall framework of divisive normalization, which in Figure 3 we see depends on first-order neuron crossover in concentration response functions. Figure 4D suggests that all first-order neurons respond with the same response amplitude (R in eq. 3), even though this is supposed to be pulled from a distribution. It's possible that Figure 4D is plotting normalized response functions to highlight the difference in latency, but this is not clear from the plot or caption. If response amplitudes are all the same, and the response curves are, as plotted in Figure 4D, identical except for their time to half-max, then it seems somewhat trivial that the resulting second-order neuron activation will follow the same latency ranking, regardless of whether divisive normalization exists or not. However, there is some small jitter in these rankings across concentrations (Figure 4G), suggesting there is some randomness to the simulations. It would be helpful if this were clarified (e.g., by showing a non-normalized Figure 4D, with different response amplitudes), and more broadly, it would be extremely helpful in evaluating the latency coding within the broader framework proposed if the authors clarified whether the simulated first-order neuron response timecourses, when factoring in potentially different amplitudes (R) and averaging across the entire response window, reproduces the concentration response crossovers observed experimentally. In summary, in the present manuscript, it remains unclear if concentration crossovers are captured in the latency simulations, and if not, the authors do not clearly address what impact such variation in response amplitudes across concentrations may have on the latency results. It is further unclear to what degree divisive normalization is necessary for the second-order neurons to establish and maintain their latency ranks across concentrations, or to exhibit concentration-dependent changes in latency.

      As suggested by the Reviewer, we will add another simulation scenario where the response amplitudes (R) are different for different neurons. For each concentration, we will then average each neuron’s response across the entire response window and determine if the simulation reproduces the cross-overs as observed experimentally.

      How the authors get from Figure 4G to 4H is not clear. Figure 4G shows second-order neuron response latencies across all latencies, with ordering based on their sorted latency to low concentration. This shows that very few neurons appear to change latency ranks going from low to high concentration, with a change in rank appearing as any deviation in a monotonically increasing trend. Focusing on the high concentration points, there appear to be 2 latency ranks switched in the first 10 responding neurons (reflecting the 1 downward dip in the points around neuron 8), rather than the 7 stated in the text. Across the first 50 responding neurons, I see only ~14 potential switches (reflecting the ~7 downward dips in the points around neurons 8, 20, 32, 33, 41, 44, 50), rather than the 32 stated in the text. It is possible that the unaccounted rank changes reflect fairly minute differences in latencies that are not visible in the plot in Figure 4G. This may be clarified by plotting each neuron's latency at low concentration vs. high concentration (i.e., similar to Figure 4H, but plotting absolute latency, not latency rank) to allow assessment of the absolute changes. If such minute differences are not driving latency rank changes in Fig. 4G, then a trend much closer to the unity line would be expected in Figure 4H. Instead, however, there are many massive deviations from unity, even within the first 50 responding neurons plotted in Figure 4G. These deviations include a jump in latency rank from 2 at low concentration to ~48 at high concentration. Such a jump is simply not seen in Figure 4G.

      We apologize that Fig. 4H was a poor choice for visualization. What is plotted in Fig. 4H is the sorted identity of neurons under low and high concentrations, and points on the y=x line indicate that the two corresponding neurons have the same rank under the two concentrations. We will replace this panel with a more intuitive visualization, where the x and y axes are the ranks of the neurons; and deviation from the y=x line indicates how different the ranks are of a neuron to the two concentrations.

      In the text, the authors state that "Odor identity can be encoded by the set of highest-affinity neurons (which remains invariant across concentrations)." Presumably, this is a restatement of the primacy model and refers to invariance in latency rank (since the authors have not shown that the highest-affinity neurons have invariant response amplitudes across concentration). To what degree this statement holds given the results in Figure 4H, however, which appear to show that some neurons with the earliest latency rank at low concentration jump to much later latency ranks at high concentration, remains unclear. Such changes in latency rank for only a few of the first responding neurons may be negligible for classifying odor identity among a small handful of odorants, but not among 1-2 orders of magnitude more odors, which may feasibly occur in a natural setting. Collectively, these issues with the execution and presentation of the latency analysis make it unclear how robust the latency results are.

      The original primacy model states that the latency of a neuron decreases with increasing concentration, while the ranks of neurons remain unaltered. Our results, on the other hand, suggest that the ranks do at least partially change across concentrations. This leads to two possible decoding mechanisms. First, if the top K responding neurons remain invariant across concentrations (even if their individual ranks change within the top K), then the brain could learn to associate a population of K neurons with a response latency; lower response latency means higher concentration. Second, if the top K responding neurons do not remain invariant across concentrations, then the brain would need to learn to associate a different set of neurons with each concentration level. The latter imposes additional constraints on the robustness of the primacy model and the corresponding read-out mechanism. We will include more discussion of these possibilities in the revision.

      Analysis in Figures 4A-C shows that concentration can be decoded from first-order neurons, second-order neurons, or first-order neurons with divisive normalization imposed (i.e., simulating second-order responses). This does not say that divisive normalization is necessary to encode concentration, however. Therefore, for the authors to say that divisive normalization is "a potential mechanism for generating odor-specific subsets of second-order neurons whose combinatorial activity or whose response latencies represent concentration information" seems too strong a conclusion. Divisive normalization is not generating the concentration information, since that can be decoded just as well from the first-order neurons. Rather, divisive normalization can account for the different population patterns in concentration response functions between first- and second-order neurons without discarding concentration-dependent information.

      We agree that the word “generating” is faulty. We thank the reviewer for their more precise wording, which we will adopt.

      Performing the same polar histogram analysis of tufted vs. mitral cell concentration response functions (Figure 5B) provides a compelling new visualization of how these two cell types differ in their concentration variance. The projected importance of tufted cells to navigation, emerging directly through the inverse relationship between average concentration and distance (Figure 5C), is not surprising, and is largely a conceptual analysis rather than new quantitative analysis per se, but nevertheless, this is an important point to make. Another important consideration absent from this section, however, is whether and how divisive normalization may impact tufted cell activity. Previous work from the authors, as well as from Schoppa, Shipley, and Westbrook labs, has compellingly demonstrated that a major circuit mediating divisive normalization of mitral cells (GABA/DAergic short-axon cells) directly targets external tufted cells, and is thus very likely to also influence projection tufted cells. Such analysis would additionally provide substantially more justification for the Discussion statement "we analyzed an additional type of second-order neuron (tufted cells)", which at present instead reflects fairly minimal analysis.

      We agree that tufted cells are subject to divisive normalization as well, albeit probably to a less degree than mitral cells. To determine the effect of this, we will alter the strength (and degree of sparseness of interglomerular interactions) of divisive normalization and determine if there is a regime where response features of tufted cells match those observed experimentally.

  5. Jun 2025
  6. May 2025
    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The paper addresses the knowledge gap between the representation of goal direction in the central complex and how motor systems stabilize movement toward that goal. The authors focused on two descending neurons, DNa01 and 02, and showed that they play different roles in steering the fly toward a goal. They also explored the connectome data to propose a model to explain how these DNs could mediate response to lateralized sensory inputs. They finally used lateralized optogenetic activation/inactivation experiments to test the roles of these neurons in mediating turnings in freely walking flies.

      Strengths:

      The experiments are well-designed and controlled. The experiment in Figure 4 is elegant, and the authors put a lot of effort into ensuring that ATP puffs do not accidentally activate the DNs. They also have explained complex experiments well. I only have minor comments for the authors.

      We are grateful for this positive feedback.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) I do not fully understand how the authors extracted the correlation functions from the population data in Figure 1. Since the ipsilateral DNs are anti-correlated with the contralateral ones, I expected that the average will drop to zero when they are pooled together (e.g., 1E-G). Of course, this will not be the case if all the data in Figure 1 are collected from the same brain hemisphere. It would be helpful if the authors could explain this.

      We regret that this information was not easy to find in our initial submission. As noted in the Figure 1D legend, Here and elsewhere, ipsi and contra are defined relative to the recorded DN(s). We have now added a sentence to the Results (right after we introduce Figure 1D) that also makes this point.

      (2) What constitutes the goal directions in Figures 1-3 and 8, as the authors could not use EPG activity as a proxy for goal directions? If these experiments were done in the dark, without landmarks, one would expect the fly's heading to drift randomly at times, and they would not engage the DNa01/02 for turning. Do the walking trajectories in these experiments qualify as menotactic bouts?

      Published work (Green et al., 2019) has shown that, even in the dark, flies will often walk for extended periods while holding the bump of EPG activity at a fixed location. During these epochs, the brain is essentially estimating that the fly is walking in a straight line in a fixed direction. (The fact that the fly is actually rotating a bit on the spherical treadmill is not something the fly can know, in the dark.) Thus, epochs where the EPG bump is held fixed are treated as menotactic bouts, even in darkness.

      Our results provide additional support for this interpretation. We find that, when flies are walking in darkness and holding the bump of EPG activity at a fixed location, they will make a corrective behavioral turning maneuver in response to an imposed bump-jump. This result argues that the flies are actually engaging in goal-directed straight-line walking, i.e. menotaxis, and it reproduces the findings of Green et al. (2019).

      To clarify this point, we have adjusted the wording of the Results pertaining to Figure 4.

      (3) In Figure 2B, the authors mentioned that DNa02 overpredicts and 01 underpredicts rapid turning and provided single examples. It would be nice to see more population-level quantification to support this claim.

      In this revision, we have reorganized Figures 1 and 2 (and associated text) to improve clarity. As part of this reorganization, we have removed this passage from the text, as it was a minor point in any event.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      The data is largely electrophysiological recordings coupled with behavioral measurements (technically impressive) and some gain-of-function experiments in freely walking flies. Loss-of-function was tested but had minimal effect, which is not surprising in a system with partially redundant control mechanisms. The data is also consistent with/complementary to subsequent manuscripts (Yang 2023, Feng 2024, and Ros 2024) showing additional descending neurons with contributions to steering in walking and flying.

      The experiments are well executed, the results interesting, and the description clear. Some hypotheses based on connectome anatomy are tested: the insights on the pre-synaptic side - how sensory and central complex heading circuits converge onto these DNs are stronger than the suggestions about biomechanical mechanisms for how turning happens on the motor side.

      Of particular interest is the idea that different sensory cues can converge on a common motor program. The turn-toward or turn-away mechanism is initiated by valence rather than whether the stimulus was odor or temperature or memory of heading. The idea that animals choose a direction based on external sensory information and then maintain that direction as a heading through a more internal, goal-based memory mechanism, is interesting but it is hard to separate conclusively.

      To clarify, we mention the role of memory in connection with two places in the manuscript. First, we note that the EPG/head direction system relies on learning and memory to construct a map of directional cues in the environment. These cues are, in principle, inherently neutral, i.e. without valence. Second, we note that specific mushroom body output neurons rely on learning and memory to store the valence associated with an odor. This information is not necessarily associated with an allocentric direction: it is simply the association of odor with value. Both of these ideas are well-attested by previous work.

      The reviewer may be suggesting a sequential scheme whereby the brain initializes an allocentric goal direction based on valence, and then maintains that goal direction in memory, based on that initialization. In other words, memory is used to associate valence with some allocentric direction. This seems plausible, but it is not a claim we make in our manuscript.

      The "see-saw", where left-right symmetry is broken to allow a turn, presumably by excitation on one side and inhibition of the other leg motor modules, is interesting but not well explained here. How hyperpolarization affects motor outputs is not clear.

      We have added several sentences to the Discussion to clarify this point. According to this see-saw model, steering can emerge from right/left asymmetries in excitation, or inhibition, or both. It may be nonintuitive to think that inhibitory input to a DN can produce an action. However, this becomes more plausible given our finding that DNa02 has a relatively high basal firing rate (Fig. 1D), and DNa02 hyperpolarization is associated with contraversive turning (Fig. 5A). It is also relevant to note that there are many inhibitory cell types that form strong unilateral connections onto DNa02 (e.g., AOTU019).

      The statement near Figure 5B that "DNa02 activity was higher on the side ipsilateral to the attractive stimulus, but contralateral to the aversive stimulus" is really important - and only possible to see because of the dual recordings.

      We thank the reviewer for this positive feedback.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Rayshubskiy et al. performed whole-cell recordings from descending neurons (DNs) of fruit flies to characterize their role in steering. Two DNs implicated in "walking control" and "steering control" by previous studies (Namiki et al., 2018, Cande et al., 2018, Chen et al., 2018) were chosen by the authors for further characterization. In-vivo whole-cell recordings from DNa01 and DNa02 showed that their activity predicts spontaneous ipsilateral turning events. The recordings also showed that while DNa02 predicts transient turns DNa01 predicts slow sustained turns. However, optogenetic activation or inactivation showed relatively subtle phenotypes for both neurons (consistent with data in other recent preprints, Yang et al 2023 and Feng et al 2024). The authors also further characterized DNa02 with respect to its inputs and showed a functional connection with olfactory and thermosensory inputs as well as with the head-direction system. DNa01 is not characterized to this extent.

      Strengths:

      (1) In-vivo recordings and especially dual recordings are extremely challenging in Drosophila and provide a much higher resolution DN characterization than other recent studies that have relied on behavior or calcium imaging. Especially impressive are the simultaneous recordings from bilateral DNs (Figure 3). These bilateral recordings show clearly that DNa02 cells not only fire more during ipsilateral turning events but that they get inhibited during contralateral turns. In line with this observation, the difference between left and right DNa02 neuronal activity is a much better predictor of turning events compared to individual DNa02 activity.

      (2) Another technical feat in this work is driving local excitation in the head-direction neuronal ensemble

      (PEN-1 neurons), while simultaneously imaging its activity and performing whole-cell recordings from DNa02

      (Figure 4). This impressive approach provided a way to causally relate changes in the head-direction system to DNa02 activity. Indeed, DNa02 activity could predict the rate at which an artificially triggered bump in the PEN-1 ring attractor returns to its previous stable point.

      (3) The authors also support the above observations with connectomics analysis and provide circuit motifs that can explain how the head direction system (as well as external olfactory/thermal stimuli) communicated with DNa02. All these results unequivocally put DNa02 as an essential DN in steering control, both during exploratory navigation as well as stimulus-directed turns.

      We are grateful for this detailed positive feedback.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) I understand that the first version of this preprint was already on biorxiv in 2020, and some of the "weaknesses" I list are likely a reflection of the fact that I'm tasked to review this manuscript in late 2024 (more than 4 years later). But given this is a 2024 updated version it suffers from laying out the results in contemporary terms. For instance, the manuscript lacks any reference to the DNp09 circuit implicated in object-directed turning and upstream to DNa02 even though the authors cite one of the papers where this was analyzed (Braun et al, 2024). More importantly, these studies (both Braun et al 2024 and Sapkal et al 2024) along with recent work from the authors' lab (Yang et al 2023) and other labs (Feng et al 2024) provide a view that the entire suite of leg kinematics changes required for turning are orchestrated by populations of heterogeneous interconnected DNs. Moreover, these studies also show that this DN-DN network has some degree of hierarchy with some DNs being upstream to other DNs. In this contemporary view of steering control, DNa02 (like DNg13 from Yang et al 2023) is a downstream DN that is recruited by hierarchically upstream DNs like DNa03, DNp09, etc. In this view, DNa02 is likely to be involved in most turning events, but by itself unable to drive all the motor outputs required for the said events. This reasoning could be used while discussing the lack of major phenotypes with DNa02 activation or inactivation observed in the current study, which is in stark contrast to strong phenotypes observed in the case of hierarchically upstream DNs like DNp09 or DNa03. In the section, "Contributions of single descending neuron types to steering behavior": the authors start off by asking if individual DNs can make measurable contributions to steering behavior. Once more, any citations to DNp09 or DNa03 - two DNs that are clearly shown to drive strong turning-on activation (Bidaye et al, 2020, Feng et al 2024) - are lacking. Besides misleading the reader, such statements also digress the results away from contemporary knowledge in the field. I appreciate that the brief discussion in the section titled "Ensemble codes for steering" tries to cover these recent updates. However, I think this would serve a better purpose in the introduction and help guide the results.

      We apologize for these omissions of relevant citations, which we have now fixed. Specifically, in our revised Discussion, we now point out that:

      - Braun et al. (2024) reported that bilateral optogenetic activation of either DNa02 or DNa01 can drive turning (in either direction). 

      - Braun et al. (2024) also identified DNb02 as a steering-related DN.

      - Bidaye et al. (2020), Sapkal et al. (2024), and Braun et al. (2024) all contributed to the identification of DNp09 as a broadcaster DN with the capacity to promote ipsiversive turning.

      We have also revised the beginning of the Results section titled “Contributions of single descending neuron types to steering behavior”, as suggested by the Reviewer.

      Finally, we agree with the Reviewer’s overall point that steering is influenced by multiple DNs. We have not claimed that any DN is solely responsible for steering. As we note in the Discussion: “We found that optogenetically inhibiting DNa01 produced only small defects in steering, and inhibiting DNa02 did not produce statistically significant effects on steering; these results make sense if DNa02 is just one of many steering DNs.”

      (2) The second major weakness is the lack of any immunohistochemistry (IHC) images quantifying the expression of the genetic tools used in these studies. Even though the main split-Gal4 tools for DNa01 and DNa02 were previously reported by Namiki et al, 2018, it is important to document the expression with the effectors used in this work and explicitly mention the expression in any ectopic neurons. Similarly, for any experiments where drivers were combined together (double recordings, functional connectivity) or modified for stochastic expression (Figure 8), IHC images are absolutely necessary. Without this evidence, it is difficult to trust many of the results (especially in the case of behavioral experiments in Figure 8). For example, the DNa01 genetic driver used by the authors is also expressed in some neurons in the nerve cord (as shown on the Flylight webpage of Janelia Research Campus). One wonders if all or part of the results described in Figure 8 are due to DNa01 manipulation or manipulation of the nerve cord neurons. The same applies for optic lobe neurons in the DNa02 driver.

      This is a reasonable request. We used DN split-Gal4 lines to express three types of UAS-linked transgenes:

      (1) GFP

      In these flies, we know that expression in DNs is restricted to the DN types in question, based on published work (Namki et al., 2018), as well as the fact that we see one labeled DN soma per hemisphere. When we label both cells with GFP, we use the spike waveform to identify DNa02 and DNa01, as described in Figure S1

      (2) ReaChR

      In these flies, expression patterns were different in different flies because ReaChR expression was stochastically sparsened using hs-FLP. Expression was validated in each fly after the experiment, as described in the Methods (“Stochastic ReaChR expression”). hs-FLP-mediated sparsening will necessarily produce stochastic patterns of expression in both DNa02 and off-target cells, and this is true of all the flies in this experiment. What makes the “unilateral” flies distinct from the “bilateral” flies is that unilateral flies express ReaChR in one copy of DNa02, whereas bilateral flies express ReaChR in both copies of DNa02. On average, off-target expression will be the same in both groups.

      (3) GtACR1

      In these flies, we initially assumed that GtACR1 expression was the same as GFP expression under control of the same driver. However, we agree with the reviewer’s point that these two expression patterns are not necessarily identical. Therefore, to address the reviewer’s question, we performed immunofluorescence microscopy to characterize GtACR1 patterns in the brain and VNC of both genotypes. These expression patterns are now shown in a new supplemental figure (Figure S8). This figure shows that, as it happens, expression of GtACR1 is indeed indistinguishable from the GFP expression patterns for the same lines (archived on the FlyLight website). Both DN split-Gal4 lines are largely selective for the DNs in question, with limited off-target labeling. We have now drawn attention to this off-target labeling in the last paragraph of the Results, where the GtACR1 results are discussed.

      (3) The paper starts off with a comparative analysis of the roles of DNa01 and DNa02 during steering. Unfortunately, after this initial analysis, DNa01 is largely ignored for further characterization (e.g. with respect to inputs, connectomics, etc.), only to return in the final figure for behavioral characterization where DNa01 seems to have a stronger silencing phenotype compared to DNa02. I couldn't find an explanation for this imbalance in the characterization of DNa01 versus DNa02. Is this due to technical reasons? Or was it an informed decision due to some results? In addition to being a biased characterization, this also results in the manuscript lacking a coherent thread, which in turn makes it a bit inaccessible to the non-specialist.

      Yes, the first portion of the manuscript focuses on DNa01 and DNa02. The latter part of the manuscript transitions to focus mainly on DNa02. 

      Our rationale is noted at the point in the manuscript where we make this transition, with the section titled “Steering toward internal goals”: “Having identified steering-related DNs, we proceeded to investigate the brain circuits that provide input to these DNs. Here we decided to focus on DNa02, as this cell’s activity is predictive of larger steering maneuvers.” When we say that DNa02 is predictive of larger steering maneuvers, we are referring to several specific results:

      - We obtain larger filter amplitudes for DNa02 versus DNa01 (Fig. 2A-C). This means that, just after a unit change in DN firing rate, we see on average a larger change in steering velocity for DNa02 versus DNa01.

      - The linear filter for DNa02 has a higher variance explained, as compared to DNa01 (Fig. 2D). This means that DNa02 is more predictive of steering.

      - The relationship between firing rate and rotational velocity (150 ms later) is steeper for DNa02 than for DNa01 (Fig. 2G). This means that, if we ignore dynamics and we just regress firing rate against subsequent rotational velocity, we see a higher-gain relationship for DNa02.

      Our focus on DNa02 was also driven by connectivity considerations. In the same paragraph (the first paragraph in the section titled “Steering toward internal goals”). We note that “there are strong anatomical pathways from the central complex to DNa02”; the same is not true of DNa01. This point has also been noted by other investigators (Hulse et al. 2021).

      We don’t think this focus on DNa02 makes our work biased or inaccessible. Any study must balance breadth with depth. A useful general way to balance these constraints is to begin a study with a somewhat broader scope, and then narrow the study’s focus to obtain more in-depth information. Here, we began with comparative study of two cell types, and we progressed to the cell type that we found more compelling.

      (4) There seems to be a discrepancy with regard to what is emphasized in the main text and what is shown in Figures S3/S4 in relation to the role of these DNs in backward walking. There are only two sentences in the main text where these figures are cited.

      a) "DNa01 and DNa02 firing rate increases were not consistently followed by large changes in forward velocity

      (Figs. 1G and S3)."

      b) "We found that rotational velocity was consistently related to the difference in right-left firing rates (Fig. 3B). This relationship was essentially linear through its entire dynamic range, and was consistent across paired recordings (Fig. 3C). It was also consistent during backward walking, as well as forward walking (Fig. S4)." These main text sentences imply the role of the difference between left and right DNa02 in turning. However, the actual plots in the Figures S3 and S4 and their respective legends seem to imply a role in "backward walking". For instance, see this sentence from the legend of Figure S3 "When (ΔvoltageDNa02>>ΔvoltageDNa01), the fly is typically moving backward. When (firing rateDNa02>>firing rateDNa01), the fly is also often moving backward, but forward movement is still more common overall, and so the net effect is that forward velocity is small but still positive when (firing rateDNa02>>firing rateDNa01). Note that when we condition our analysis on behavior rather than neural activity, we do see that backward walking is associated with a large firing rate differential (Fig. S4)." This sort of discrepancy in what is emphasized in the text, versus what is emphasized in the figures, ends up confusing the reader. More importantly, I do not agree with any of these conclusions regarding the implication of backward walking. Both Figures S3 and S4 are riddled with caveats, misinterpretations, and small sample sizes. As a result, I actually support the authors' decision to not infer too much from these figures in the "main text". In fact, I would recommend going one step further and removing/modifying these figures to focus on the role of "rotational velocity". Please find my concerns about these two figures below:

      a) In Figures S3 and S4, every heat map has a different scale for the same parameter: forward velocity. S3A is -10 to +10mm/s. S3B is -6 to +6 S4B (left) is -12 to +12 and S4B (right) is -4 to +4. Since the authors are trying to depict results based on the color-coding this is highly problematic.

      b) Figure S3A legend "When (ΔvoltageDNa02>>ΔvoltageDNa01), the fly is typically moving backward." There are also several instances when ΔvoltageDNa02= ΔvoltageDNa01 and both are low (lower left quadrant) when the fly is typically moving backwards. So in my opinion, this figure in fact suggests DNa02 has no role in backward velocity control.

      c) Based on the example traces in S4A, every time the fly walks backwards it is also turning. Based on this it is important to show absolute rotational velocity in Figure S4C. It could be that the fly is turning around the backward peak which would change the interpretation from Figure S4C. Also, it is important to note that the backward velocities in S4A are unprecedentedly high. No previous reports show flies walking backwards at such high velocities (for example see Chen et al 2018, Nat Comm. for backward walking velocities on a similar setup).

      d) In my opinion, Figure S4D showing that right-left DNa02 correlates with rotational velocity, regardless of whether the fly is in a forward or backward walking state, is the only important and conclusive result in Figures S3/S4. These figures should be rearranged to only emphasize this panel.

      We agree that it is difficult to interpret some of the correlations between DN activity and forward velocity, given that forward velocity and rotational velocity are themselves correlated to some degree. This is why we did not make claims based on these results in the main text. In response to these comments, we have taken the Reviewer’s suggestion to preserve Figure S4D (now Figure S3). The other components of these supplemental figures have been removed.

      (5) Figure 3 shows a really nice analysis of the bilateral DNa02 recordings data. While Figure S5 [now Figure S4] shows that authors have a similar dataset for DNa01, a similar level analysis (Figures 3D, E) is not done for DNa01 data. Is there a reason why this is not done?

      The reason we did not do the same analysis for DNa01 is that we only have two paired DNa01-DNa01 recordings. It turned out to be substantially more difficult to perform DNa01-DNa01 recordings, as compared to DNa02-DNa02 recordings. For this reason, we were not able to get more than two of these recordings.

      (6) In Figure 4 since the authors have trials where bump-jump led to turning in the opposite direction to the DNa02 being recorded, I wonder if the authors could quantify hyperpolarization in DNa02 as is predicted from connectomics data in Figure 7.

      We agree this is an interesting question. However, DNa02 firing rate and membrane potential are variable, and stimulus-evoked hyperpolarizations in these DNs tend to be relatively small (on the order of 1 mV, in the case of a contralateral fictive olfactory stimulus, Figure 5A). In the case of our fictive olfactory stimuli, we could look carefully for these hyperpolarizations because we had a very large number of trials, and we could align these trials precisely to stimulus onset. By contrast, for the bump-jump experiments, we have a more limited number of trials, and turning onset is not so tightly time-locked to the chemogenetic stimuli; for these reasons, we are hesitant to make claims about any bump-jump-related hyperpolarization in these trials.

      (7) Figure 6 suggests that DNa02 contains information about latent steering drives. This is really interesting. However, in order to unequivocally claim this, a higher-resolution postural analysis might be needed. Especially given that DNa02 activation does not reliably evoke ipsilateral turning, these "latent" steering events could actually contain significant postural changes driven by DNa02 (making them "not latent"). Without this information, at least the authors need to explicitly mention this caveat.

      This is a good point. We cannot exclude the possibility that DNa02 is driving postural changes when the fly is stopped, and these postural changes are so small we cannot detect them. In this case, however, there would still be an interesting mismatch between the stimulus-evoked change in DNa02 firing rate (which is large) and the stimulus-evoked postural response (which would be very small). We have added language to the relevant Results section in order to make this explicit.

      (8) Figure 7 would really benefit from connectome data with synapse numbers (or weighted arrows) and a corresponding analysis of DNa01.

      In response to this comment, we have added synapses number information (represented by weighted arrows) to Figures 7C, E, and F. We also added information to the Methods to explain how cells were chosen for inclusion in this diagram. (In brief: we thresholded these connections so as to discard connections with small numbers of synapses.)

      We did perform an analogous connectome circuit analysis for DNa01, but if we use the same thresholds as we do for DNa02, we obtain a much sparser connectivity graph. We now show this in a new supplemental figure (Figure S9). MBON32 makes no monosynaptic connections onto DNa01, and it only forms one disynaptic connection, via LAL018, which is relatively weak. PFL3 and PFL2 make no mono- or disynaptic connections onto DNa01 comparable in strength to what we find for DNa02. 

      The sparser connectivity graph for DNa01 is partly due to the fact that fewer cell types converge onto DNa01 as compared to DNa02 (110 cell types, versus 287 cell types). Also, it seems that DNa01 is simply less closely connected to the central complex and mushroom body, as compared to DNa02.

      (9) In Figure 8E, the most obvious neuronal silencing phenotype is decreased sideways velocity in the case of DNa01 optogenetic silencing. In Figure S2, the inverse filter for sideways velocity for DNa01 had a higher amplitude than the rotational velocity filter. Taken together, does this point at some role for DNa01 in sideways velocity specifically?

      No. The forward filters describe the average velocity impulse response, given a brief step change in firing rate.

      Figure 1 and Figure S2 show that the sideways velocity forward filter is actually smaller for DNa01 than for DNa02. This means that a brief step change in DNa01 firing rate is followed by only a very small sideways velocity response. Conversely, the reverse filters describe the average firing rate impulse response, given a brief step change in sideways velocity. Figure S2 shows that the sideways velocity reverse filter is larger for DNa01 than for DNa02, but this means that the relationship between DNa01 activity and sideways velocity is so weak that we would need to see a very large neural response in order to get a brief step change in sideways velocity. In other words, the reverse filter says that DNa01 likely has very little role in determining sideways velocity.

      (10) In Figure 8G, the effect on inner hind leg stance prolongation is very weak, and given the huge sample size, hard to interpret. Also, it is not clear how this fits with the role of DNa01 in slow sustained turning based on recordings.

      Yes, this effect is small in magnitude, which is not too surprising, given that many DNs seem to be involved in the control of steering in walking. To clarify the interpretation of these phenotypes, we have added a paragraph to the end of the Results:

      “All these effects are weak, and so they should be interpreted with caution. Also, both DN split-Gal4 lines drive expression in a few off-target cell types, which is another reason for caution (Fig. S8). However, they suggest that both DNs can lengthen the stance phase of the ipsilateral back leg, which would cause ipsiversive turning. These results are also compatible with a scenario where both DNs decrease the step length in the ipsilateral legs, which would also cause ipsiversive turning. Step frequency does not normally change asymmetrically during turning, so the observed decrease in step frequency during optogenetic inhibition may just be a by-product of increasing step length when these DNs are inhibited.” We have also added caveats and clarifications in a new Discussion paragraph:

      “Our study does not fully answer the question of how these DNs affect leg kinematics, because we were not able to simultaneously measure DN activity and leg movement. However, our optogenetic experiments suggest that both DNs can lengthen the stance phase of the ipsilateral back leg (Fig. 8G), and/or  decrease the step length in the ipsilateral legs (Fig. 8H), either of which would cause ipsiversive turning. If these DNs have similar qualitative effects on leg kinematics, then why does DNa02 precede larger and more rapid steering events? This may be due to the fact that DNa02 receives stronger and more direct input from key steering circuits in the brain (Fig. S9). It may also relate to the fact that DNa02 has more direct connections onto motor neurons (Fig. 1B).”

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) I found the sign conventions for rotational velocity particularly confusing. Figure 3 represents clockwise rotations as +ve values, but Figure 4H represents anticlockwise rotations as positive values. But for EPG bumps, anticlockwise rotations are given negative values. Please make them consistent unless I am missing something obvious.

      Different fields use different conventions for yaw velocity. In aeronautics, a clockwise turn is generally positive. In robotics and engineering of terrestrial vehicles, a counterclockwise turn is generally positive. Historically, most Drosophila studies that quantified rotational (yaw) velocity were focused on the behavior of flying flies, and these studies generally used the convention from aeronautics, where a clockwise turn is defined as a positive turn. When we began working in the field, we adopted this convention, in order to conform to previous literature. It might be argued that walking flies are more like robots than airplanes, but it seemed to us that it was confusing to have different conventions for different behaviors of the same animal. Thus, all of the published studies from our lab define clockwise rotation as having positive rotational velocity.

      Figure 4 focuses on the role of the central complex in steering. As the fly turns clockwise (rightward), the bump of activity in EPG neurons normally moves counterclockwise around the ellipsoid body, as viewed from the posterior side (Turner-Evans et al., 2017). The posterior view is the conventional way to represent these dynamics, because (1) we and others typically image the brain from the posterior side, not the anterior side, and (2) in a posterior view, the animal’s left is on the left side of the image, and vice versa. We have added a sentence to the Figure 4A legend to clarify these points.

      Previous work has shown that, when an experimenter artificially “jumps” the EPG bump, this causes the fly to make a compensatory turn that returns the bump to (approximately) its original location (Green et al., 2019). Our work supports this observation. Specifically, we find that clockwise bump jumps are generally followed by rightward turns (which drive the bump to return to its approximate original location via a counterclockwise path), and vice versa. This is noted in the Figure 4D legend. Note that Figure 4D plots the fly’s rotational velocity during the bump return, plotted against the initial bump jump. 

      Figure 4H shows that clockwise (blue) bump returns were typically preceded by leftward turning, counter-clockwise (green) bump returns were preceded by rightward turning, as expected. This is detailed in the Figure 4H legend, and it is consistent with the coordinate frame described above.

      (2) It would be helpful to have images of the DNa01 and DNa02 split lines used in this paper, considering this paper would most likely be used widely to describe the functions of these neurons. Similarly, images of their reconstructions would be a useful addition.

      High-quality three-dimensional confocal stacks of all the driver lines used in our study are publicly available. We have added this information to the Methods (under “Fly husbandry and genotypes”). Confocal images of the full morphologies of DNa01 and DNa02 have been previously published (Namiki et al., 2018). Figure 1A is a schematic that is intended to provide a quick visual summary of this information.

      EM reconstructions of DNa01 and DNa02 are publicly accessible in a whole-brain dataset (https://codex.flywire.ai/) and a whole-VNC dataset (https://neuprint.janelia.org/). Both datasets are referenced in our study. As these datasets are easy to search and browse via user-friendly web-based tools, we expect that interested readers will have no difficulty accessing the underlying datasets directly.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) The description of the activity of the DNs that they "PREDICT steering during walking". This is an interesting word choice. Not causes, not correlates with, not encodes... does that mean the activity always precedes the action? Does that mean when you see activity, you will get behavior? This is important for assessing whether the DN activity is a cause or an effect. It is good to be cautious but it might be worth expanding on exactly what kind of connection is implied to justify the use of the word 'predict'.

      Conventionally, “predict” means “to indicate in advance”. We write that DNs “predict” certain features of behavior. We use this term because (1) these DNs correlate with certain features of behavior, and (2) changes in DN activity precede changes in behavior.

      The notion that neurons can “predict” behavior is not original to our study. Whenever neuroscientists summarize the relationship between neural activity and behavior by fitting a mathematical model (which may be as simple as a linear regression), the fitted model can be said to represent a “prediction” of behavior. These models are evaluated by comparing their predictions with measured behaviors. A good model is predictive, but it also implies that the underlying neural signal is also predictive (Levenstein et al., 2023 Journal of Neuroscience 43: 1074-1088; DOI: 10.1523/JNEUROSCI.1179-22.2022). Here, prediction simply means correlation, without necessarily implying causation. We also use “prediction” to imply correlation.

      We do not think the term “prediction” implies determinism. Meteorologists are said to predict the weather, but it is understood that their predictions are probabilistic, not deterministic. Certainly, we would not claim that there is a deterministic relationship between DN activity and behavior. Figure 2D shows that neither DN type can explain all the variance in the fly’s rotational or sideways velocity. At the same time, both DNs have significant predictive power.

      We might equally say that these DNs “encode” behavior. We have chosen to use the word “predict” rather than “encode” because we do not think it is necessary to use the framework of symbolic communication in connection with these DNs.

      We agree with the Reviewer that it is helpful to test whether any neuron that “predicts” a behavior might also “cause” this behavior. In Figure 8, we show that directly perturbing these DNs can indeed alter locomotor behavior, which suggests a causal role. Connectome analyses also suggest a causal role for these DNs in locomotor behavior (Figure 1B, see especially also Cheong et al., 2024).

      At the same time, it is clear from our results that these DNs are not “command neurons” for turning: they do not deterministically cause turning. Therefore, to avoid misunderstanding, we have generally been careful to summarize the results of our perturbation experiments by avoiding the statement that “this DN causes this behavior”. Rather, we have generally tried to say that “this DN influences this behavior”, or “this DN promotes this behavior”.

      (2) There is some concern about how the linear filter models were developed and then used to predict the relationship between firing rate and steering behavior: how exactly were the build and test data separated to avoid re-extracting the input? It reads like a self-fulfilling prophecy/tautology.

      We used conventional cross-validation for model fitting and evaluation. We apologize that this was not made explicit in our original submission; this was due to an oversight on our part. To be clear: linear filters were computed using the data from the first 20% of a given experiment. We then convolved each cell’s firing rate estimate with the computed Neuron→Behavior filter (the “forward filter”) using the data from the final 80% of the experiment, in order to generate behavioral predictions. Thus, when a model has high variance explained, this is not attributable to overfitting: rather, it quantifies the bona fide predictive power of the model. We have added this information to the Methods (under “Data analysis - Linear filter analysis”).

      (3) Type-O right above Figure 2 [now Figure 1E]: I assume spike rate fluctuations in DNa02 precede DNa01?

      Fixed. Thank you for reading the manuscript carefully.

      (4) The description of the other manuscripts about neural control of the steering as "follow-up" papers is a bit diminishing. They were likely independent works on a similar theme that happened afterwards, rather than deliberate extensions of this paper, so "subsequent" might be a more accurate description.

      We apologize, as we did not intend this to be diminishing. Given this request, we have revised “follow-up” to “subsequent”.

      (5) The idea that DNa02 is high-gain because it is more directly connected to motor neurons is a hypothesis and this should be made clear. We really don't know the functional consequences of the directness of a path or the number of synapses, and which circuits you compare to would change this. DNa02 may be a higher gain than DNa01, but what about relative to the other DNs that enter pre-motor regions? How do you handle a few synapses and several neurons in a common class? All of these connectivity-based deductions await functional tests - like yours! I think it is better to make this clear so readers don't assume a higher level of certainty than we have.

      The Reviewer asks how we handled few-synapse connections, and how we combined neurons in the same class. We apologize for not making this explicit in our original submission. We have now added this information to the Methods. Briefly, to select cell types for inclusion in Figures 7C, we identified all individual cells postsynaptic to PFL3 and presynaptic to DNa02, discarding any unitary connections with <5 synapses. We then grouped unitary connections by cell type, and then summed all synapse numbers within each connection group (e.g., summing all synapses in all PFL3→LAL126 connections). We then discarded connection groups having <200 synapses or <1% of a cell type’s pre- or postsynaptic total. Reported connection weights are per hemisphere, i.e. half of the total within each connection group. For Figure 7F we did the same, but now discarding connection groups having <70 synapses or <0.4% of a cell type’s pre- or postsynaptic total. In Figure S9, we used the same procedures for analyzing connections onto DNa01. 

      We agree that it is tricky to infer function from connectome data, and this applies to motor neuron connectivity. We bring up DN connectivity onto motor neurons in two places. First, in the Results, we note that “steering filters (i.e., rotational and sideways velocity filters) were larger for DNa02 (Fig. 2A,B). This means that an impulse change in firing rate predicts a larger change in steering for this neuron. In other words, this result suggests that DNa02 operates with higher gain. This may be related to the fact that DNa02 makes more direct output synapses onto motor neurons (Fig. 1B) [emphasis added].” We feel this is a relatively conservative statement.

      Subsequently, in the Discussion, we ask, “why does DNa02 precede larger and more rapid steering events? This may be due to the fact that DNa02 receives stronger and more direct input from key steering circuits in the brain (Fig. S9). It may also relate to the fact that DNa02 has more direct connections onto motor neurons (Fig. 1B) [emphasis added].” Again, we feel this is a relatively conservative statement.

      To be sure, none of the motor neurons postsynaptic to DNa02 actually receive most of their synaptic input from DNa02 (or indeed any DN), and this is typical of motor neurons controlling leg muscles. Rather, leg motor neurons tend to get most of their input from interneurons rather than motor neurons (Cheong et al. 2024). Available data suggests that the walking rhythm originates with intrinsic VNC central pattern generators, and the DNs that influence walking do so, in large part, by acting on VNC interneurons. These points have been detailed in recent connectome analyses (see especially Cheong et al. 2024).

      We are reluctant to broaden the scope of our connectome analyses to include other DNs for comparison, because we think these analyses are most appropriate to full-central-nervous-system-(CNS)-connectomes (brain and VNC together), which are currently under construction. Without a full-CNS-connectome, many of the DN axons in the VNC cannot be identified. In the future, we expect that full-CNS-connectomes will allow a systematic comparison of the input and output connectivity of all DN types, and probably also the tentative identification of new steering DNs. Those future analyses should generate new hypotheses about the specializations of DNa02, DNa01, and other DNs. Our study aims to help lay a conceptual foundation for that future work.

      (6) Given the emphasis on the DNa02 to Motor Neuron connectivity shown (Figure 1B) and multiple text mentions, could you include more analyses of which motor neurons are downstream and how these might be expected to affect leg movements? I would like to see the synapse numbers (Figure 1B) as well as the fraction of total output synapses. These additions would help understand the evidence for the "see-saw" model.

      We agree this is interesting. In follow-up work from our lab (Yang et al., 2023), we describe the detailed VNC connectivity linking DNa02 to motor neurons. We refer the Reviewer specifically to Figure 7 of that study (https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(24)00962-0).

      We regret that the see-saw model was perhaps not clear in our original submission. Briefly, this model proposes that an increase in excitatory synaptic input to one DN (and/or a disinhibition of that DN) is often accompanied by an increase in inhibitory synaptic input to the contralateral DN. This model is motivated by connectome data on the brain inputs to DNa02 (Figure 7), along with our observation that excitation of one DN is often accompanied by inhibition of the contralateral DN (Figure 5). We have now added text to the Results in several places in order to clarify these points. 

      This model specifically pertains to the brain inputs to DNs, comparing the downstream targets of these DNs in the VNC would not be a test of this hypothesis. The Reviewer may be asking to see whether there is any connectivity in the brain from one DN to its contralateral partner. We do not find connections of this sort, aside from multisynaptic connections that rely on very weak links (~10 synapses per connection). Figure 7 depicts a much stronger basis for this hypothesis, involving feedforward see-saw connections from PFL3 and MBON32. 

      (7) The conclusions from the data in Figure 8 could be explained more clearly. These seem like small effect sizes on subtle differences in leg movements - maybe like what was seen in granular control by Moonwalker's circuits? Measuring joint angles or step parameters might help clarify, but a summary description would help the reader.

      We agree that these results were not explained very well in our original submission. 

      In our revised manuscript, we have added a new paragraph to the end of this Results section providing some summary and interpretation:

      “All these effects are weak, and so they should be interpreted with caution. However, they suggest that both DNs can lengthen the stance phase of the ipsilateral back leg, which would promote ipsiversive turning. These results are also compatible with a scenario where both DNs decrease the step length in the ipsilateral legs, which would also promote ipsiversive turning. Step frequency does not normally change asymmetrically during turning, so the observed decrease in step frequency during optogenetic inhibition may just be a by-product of increasing step length when these DNs are inhibited.”

      Moreover, in the Discussion, we have also added a new paragraph that synthesizes these results with other results in our study, while also noting the limitations of our study:

      “Our study does not fully answer the question of how these DNs affect leg kinematics, because we were not able to simultaneously measure DN activity and leg movement. However, our optogenetic experiments suggest that both DNs can lengthen the stance phase of the ipsilateral back leg (Fig. 8G), and/or  decrease the step length in the ipsilateral legs (Fig. 8H), either of which would promote ipsiversive turning. If these DNs have similar qualitative effects on leg kinematics, then why does DNa02 precede larger and more rapid steering events? This may be due to the fact that DNa02 receives stronger and more direct input from key steering circuits in the brain (Fig. S9). It may also relate to the fact that DNa02 has more direct connections onto motor neurons (Fig. 1B).”

      In Figure 8D-H, we measure step parameters in freely walking flies during acute optogenetic inhibition of DNa01 and DNa02. In experiments measuring neural activity in flies walking on a spherical treadmill, we did not have a way to measure step parameters. Subsequently, this methodology was developed by Yang et al. (2023) and results for DNa02 are described in that study. 

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Minor Points:

      (1) If space allows, actual membrane potential should be mentioned when raw recordings are shown (for example Figure 1D).

      We have now added absolute membrane potential information to Figure 1d.

      (2) Typo in the sentence "To address this issue directly, we looked closely at the timing of each cell's recruitment in our dual recordings, and found that spike rate fluctuations in DNa02 typically preceded the spike rate fluctuations in DNa02 (Fig. 2A)." The final word should be "DNa01".

      Fixed. Thank you for reading the manuscript carefully.

      (3) Figure 2A - although there aren't direct connections between a01 and a02 in the connectome, the authors never rule out functional connectivity between these two. Given a02 precedes a01, shouldn't this be addressed?

      In the full brain FAFB data set, there are two disynaptic connections from DNa02 onto the ipsilateral copy of DNa01. One connection is via CB0556 (which is GABAergic), and the other is via LAL018 (which is cholinergic). The relevant DNa02 output connections are very weak: each DNa02→CB0556 connection consists of 11 synapses, whereas each DNa02→LAL018 connection consists of 10 synapses (on average). Conversely, each CB0556→DNa01 connection consists of 29 synapses, whereas  each LAL018→DNa01 connection consists of 64 synapses. In short, LAL018 is a nontrivial source of excitatory input to DNa01, but DNa02 is not positioned to exert much influence over LAL018, and the two disynaptic connections from DNa02 onto DNa01 also have the opposite sign. Thus, it seems unlikely that DNa02 is a major driver of DNa01 activity. At the same time, it is difficult to completely exclude this possibility, because we do not understand the logic of the very complicated premotor inputs to these DNs in the brain. Thus, we are hesitant to make a strong statement on this point.

  7. Apr 2025
  8. pressbooks.library.torontomu.ca pressbooks.library.torontomu.ca
    1. carefully I managed to cook my hotdog just the right amount of time and didn’t burn it or drop it into the fire, the way I was afraid of doing. Then, when nobody was looking, I buried it in the sand.

      Metaphorical meaning?

  9. Jan 2025
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Get the morning and evening editions of our flagship newsletter in your inbox.US & Canada newsNew fires erupt in southern California ahead of Trump visit 3 hrs agoUS & CanadaOpening statements begin in A$AP Rocky's trial in Los Angeles6 hrs agoUS & CanadaTrump pardons anti-abortion activists ahead of rally9 hrs agoUS & CanadaEven before the LA fires, Californians fled for 'climate havens'Some are moving to so-called "climate havens" in the Great Lakes region to avoid climate disasters. 20 hrs agoUS & CanadaIsrael-Gaza warStories of the hostages taken by Hamas from Israel6 hrs agoMiddle EastWho are Israeli hostages released and rescued from Gaza?6 hrs agoMiddle EastWhy are Israel and Hamas fighting in Gaza?3 days agoMiddle EastKey events that led to Israel-Hamas ceasefire deal in GazaThe ceasefire agreement in the Gaza war follows 15 months of fighting between Israel and Hamas.6 days agoMiddle EastWar in UkraineUkraine claims drone strike on Russian oil refinery3 hrs agoEurope'I fled Ukraine as a refugee - now I've won investment on Dragons' Den'6 hrs agoWest Yorkshire'Unbelievable' race track convoy for Ukraine2 days agoEnglandDark humour for dark times: How comedy helps in UkraineUkrainian stand-up comedians say humour can help people cope and raise money for the war effort.2 days agoEuropeMore world newsMan dies after tree falls on his car during Storm Éowyn49 mins agoEuropeTens of thousands protest in Slovakia against PM Fico 1 hr agoEuropeBulgarian woman based in UK denies spying for Russia2 hrs agoEuropeRebels kill DR Congo governor as fighting intensifies Conflict in eastern DR Congo's has forced 400,000 people to flee their homes this year alone, the UN says.3 hrs agoAfricaVideoWhy being a 'loner' could be good for youEmerging research suggests that spending time alone is beneficial for our health and creativity.See moreSportMan City captain Walker completes AC Milan loan move2 hrs agoMan CityLIVEEFL: Hull City stun Sheffield United to move out of drop zoneDjokovic unsure of Australian Open return10 hrs agoTennisEmbracing the chaos - breaking down Bournemouth's riseWith Bournemouth challenging for a top-four place in the Premier League this season, BBC Sport analyses how the Cherries are doing it.5 hrs agoBournemouthBusinessTrump urged not to put massive tariffs on UK4 hrs agoBusinessBank of Japan raises rates to highest in 17 years15 hrs agoBusinessClampdown on fake Google reviews announced7 hrs agoTechnologyUS doesn't need Canadian energy or cars, says TrumpSpeaking to business leaders in Davos, Trump also repeated his jibe that Canada could become a US state and would avoid tariffs if it did. 1 day agoUS & CanadaTech'A mockery': Trump's new meme-coin sparks anger in crypto world1 day agoUS & CanadaHow to make oxygen on the moon22 hrs agoChatGPT back online after outage which hit thousands worldwide1 day agoTechnologyScammers using my face to con people, warns Namibia's ex-first ladyIn a video message Monica Geingos warns people not to be duped into investing in fake schemes.1 day agoAfricaScience & health'I had anti-government views so they treated me for schizophrenia'2 days agoAsiaUnitedHealthcare names new boss after former CEO killed21 hrs agoUS & CanadaPurdue and Sackler family agree $7.4bn opioid settlement1 day agoUS & CanadaHair loss drug finasteride 'biggest mistake of my life'Some online sites prescribe a potentially risky hair loss drug without consistent safety checks, BBC finds.21 hrs agoHealthCultureLola Young's Messy hits number one: My songs are as real as it gets4 hrs agoCultureHarry v the tabloids. 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      Perceivability Issue – Low Contrast

      The text on website lacks sufficient contrast against the white or light-coloured background. This makes it harder for users with visual impairments or low contrast sensitivity to read and navigate the website effectively. Improving the contrast between the text and background would align with WCAG standards and ensure that all users can perceive the content clearly.

  10. Dec 2024
    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife Assessment

      This valuable study provides in vivo evidence for the synchronization of projection neurons in the olfactory bulb at gamma frequency in an activity-dependent manner. This study uses optogenetics in combination with single-cell recordings to selectively activate sensory input channels within the olfactory bulb. The data are thoughtfully analyzed and presented; the evidence is solid, although some of the conclusions are only partially supported.

      We deeply thank all the reviewers for their time, effort, and insightful comments. Their revision led to a significant improvement of the paper.

      The reviewers suggested toning down our claim that we found a mechanism that synchronizes all odor-evoked MTC activities, as we do not directly show that. We concur and address this in our revised version to ensure a precise interpretation of our findings. In short, we state that we revealed a synchronization mechanism between two groups of active mitral and tufted cells (MTCs) and show that this synchronization is activity-dependent and distance-independent. This mechanism can enable the synchronization of all odor-activated MTCs.

      Another issue raised is the interpretation of the results obtained under Ketamine anesthesia. Ketamine is an NMDA receptor antagonist that plays a crucial role in the  MTC-GC reciprocal synapse. To address this, we include new analyses demonstrating that optogenetic activation of granule cells (GCs) can inhibit the recorded MTCs during baseline activity but does not substantially affect odor-evoked MTC firing rates. We show that this is correct in both Ketamine-induced anesthesia and awake mice (Dalal & Haddad, 2022). This indicates that GC-MTC connections are functional even under Ketamine anesthesia, however, they do not exert substantial suppression on odor-evoked MTC responses. We added a paragraph to the discussion section on the potential influence of Ketamine anesthesia on GC-MTC synapses and its implications on our findings.

      Finally, we discuss several recent studies that are particularly relevant to our research and expand the discussion on our hypothesis that parvalbumin-positive cells in the olfactory bulb may serve as key mediators of the activity- and distance-dependent lateral inhibition observed in our findings.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Dalal and Haddad investigated how neurons in the olfactory bulb are synchronized in oscillatory rhythms at gamma frequency. Temporal coordination of action potentials fired by projection neurons can facilitate information transmission to downstream areas. In a previous paper (Dalal and Haddad 2022, https://doi.org/10.1016/j.celrep.2022.110693), the authors showed that gamma frequency synchronization of mitral/tufted cells (MTCs) in the olfactory bulb enhances the response in the piriform cortex. The present study builds on these findings and takes a closer look at how gamma synchronization is restricted to a specific subset of MTCs in the olfactory bulb. They combined odor and optogenetic stimulations in anesthetized mice with extracellular recordings.<br /> The main findings are that lateral synchronization of MTCs at gamma frequency is mediated by granule cells (GCs), independent of the spatial distance, and strongest for MTCs with firing rates close to 40 Hz. The authors conclude that this reveals a simple mechanism by which spatially distributed neurons can form a synchronized ensemble. In contrast to lateral synchronization, they found no evidence for the involvement of GCs in lateral inhibition of nearby MTCs.

      Strengths:

      Investigating the mechanisms of rhythmic synchronization in vivo is difficult because of experimental limitations for the readout and manipulation of neuronal populations at fast timescales. Using spatially patterned light stimulation of opsin-expressing neurons in combination with extracellular recordings is a nice approach. The paper provides evidence for an activity-dependent synchronization of MTCs in gamma frequency that is mediated by GCs.

      Weaknesses:

      An important weakness of the study is the lack of direct evidence for the main conclusion - the synchronization of MTCs in gamma frequency. The data shows that paired optogenetic stimulation of MTCs in different parts of the olfactory bulb increases the rhythmicity of individual MTCs (Figure 1) and that combined odor stimulation and GC stimulation increases rhythmicity and gamma phase locking of individual MTCs (Figure 4). However, a direct comparison of the firing of different MTCs is missing. This could be addressed with extracellular recordings at two different locations in the olfactory bulb. The minimum requirement to support this conclusion would be to show that the MTCs lock to the same phase of the gamma cycle. Also, showing the evoked gamma oscillations would help to interpret the data.

      We agree with the reviewer that direct evidence of mutual synchronization between multiple recorded MTCs has not been shown in our study. Our study only shows a mechanism that can enable this synchronization. We now state this clearly in the manuscript. We based this on previous studies that tested MTC spike synchronization. Specifically, Schoppa 2006, reported that electrical OSN stimulation evokes MTC spikes synchronization in the gamma range, in-vitro. Kashiwadni et al., 1999 and Doucette et al., 2011 showed that odor-evoked MTC spike times are synchronized, in-vivo. Given these studies, we asked what is the underlying mechanism that can support such a synchronization. Our study demonstrates that activating a group of MTCs can entrain another MTC in an activity-dependent and distance-independent manner. We claim this could be the underlying mechanism for the odor-evoked synchronization as demonstrated by these previous studies.

      To make sure this is clearly stated in the manuscript we changed the title to “Activity-dependent lateral inhibition enables the synchronization of active olfactory bulb projection neurons”, and rephrased a sentence in the abstract to “This lateral synchronization was particularly effective when the recorded MTC fired at the gamma rhythm”. To further clarify this point, we made several other changes throughout the results and the discussion section.

      Another weakness is that all experiments are performed under anesthesia with ketamine/medetomidine. Ketamine is an antagonist of NMDA receptors and NMDA receptors are critically involved in the interactions of MTCs and GCs at the reciprocal synapses (see for example Lage-Rupprecht et al. 2020, https://doi.org/10.7554/eLife.63737; Egger and Kuner 2021, https://doi.org/10.1007/s00441-020-03402-7). This should be considered for the interpretation of the presented data.

      This issue has been raised by reviewers #1 and #2. We think, as also reviewer #2 acknowledged, that this issue does not compromise our results. However, to address this important point we added the below section to the Discussion:

      “Our experiments were performed under Ketamine anesthesia, an NMDA receptor antagonist that affects the reciprocal dendro-dendritic synapses between MTCs and GCs (Egger and Kuner, 2021; Lage-Rupprecht et al., 2020). Consistent with that, recent studies reported lower excitability of GC activity under anesthesia (Cazakoff et al., 2014; Kato et al., 2012).  This raises the concern that our result might not be valid in the awake state. We argue that this is unlikely. First, (Fukunaga et al., 2014) reported that GCs baseline activity in anesthetized and awake mice is similar, suggesting that MTC-GC synapses are functioning. Second, we show that light activation of GCL neurons strongly inhibits the MTC baseline activity (Figure 5) and increases MTC odor-evoked spike-LFP coupling in the gamma range (Figure 4). These experiments validate that GCL neurons can exert inhibition over MTCs in our experimental setup. Third, we have shown that light-activating all accessible GCL neurons has a minor effect on the MTC odor-evoked firing rates in an awake state (Dalal and Haddad, 2022), corroborating the finding that GCL neurons are unlikely to provide strong suppression to MTCs. Fourth, and most importantly, we showed that optogenetic stimulation of MTCs entrains other MTC spike times, which is achieved via the GCL neurons. This suggests that the lack of lateral suppression following MTC or GCL neuron opto-activation is not due to MTC-GC synapse blockage. That said, we cannot exclude the unlikely possibility that NMDA receptor blockage under anesthesia impairs MTC-to-MTC suppressive interactions but not the MTC-to-MTC mediated spike entrainment.”

      Figure 1A and D from Dalal & Haddad 2022 show the effect of GCL neurons opto-activation during odor stimulation on MTC firing rates in awake and anesthetized mice.

      Furthermore, the direct effect of optogenetic stimulation on GCs activity is not shown. This is particularly important because they use Gad2-cre mice with virus injection in the olfactory bulb and expression might not be restricted to granule cells and might not target all subtypes of granule cells (Wachowiak et al., 2013, https://doi.org/10.1523/JNEUROSCI.4824-12.2013). This should be considered for the interpretation of the data, particularly for the absence of an effect of GC stimulation on lateral inhibition.

      In this study we used Gad2-cre mice, and the protocol for viral transfection of GCL neurons reported in Fukunaga et al., 2014. They reported that: ‘more than 90% of Cre-expressing neurons in the GCL also expressed fluorescently tagged ArchT’. Consistently, when Fukunaga et al. expressed ChR2 in the GCL using the same viral infection as we used, they reported that: ”Light presentation in vivo resulted in rapid and strong depolarization of, and action potential (AP) discharges in, GCs (Fig. 3b), which in

      turn consistently and strongly hyperpolarized M/TCs (9 of 9 cells showed 100% AP suppression; Fig. 3c,d)”. This study shows clearly that this infection protocol is robust. Moreover, in new panels we added to the manuscript (Figure 5a-b), we show that optogenetic activation of GCL neurons strongly suppressed MTC activity during baseline conditions but not odor-evoked responses MTCs. This is consistent with the reports by Fukunaga et al, and indicates that GCL neurons are functional as they can suppress MTC baseline activity.

      Finally, since virus injection to the granule cell layer can target other GCL neuron types, we changed the reference in the text to GCL neurons (as was done in Gschwend et al., 2015) instead of ‘GCs’ when referring to GC. We replaced the image in Figure 4A, to show the expression of ChR2 is restricted to GCL neurons. That said, it is still possible that our protocol did not infect all GC subtypes. To address this, we added this line to the Discussion: “We also note that our viral transfection protocol in Gad2-Cre mice might not transfect all subtypes of GCs”

      Several conclusions are only supported by data from example neurons. The paper would benefit from a more detailed description of the analysis and the display of some additional analysis at the population level:

      - What were the criteria based on which the spots for light-activation were chosen from the receptive field map?

      In order to make this point clearer, we extended the explanation in the Methods on the selection criteria: “Spots were selected either randomly or manually. In the manual selection case, we selected spots that caused either significant or mild but insignificant inhibitory effect on the recorded MTC (e.g., local cold spots in the receptive-field map; see example in Figure 2a of example spots that were selected manually)”. We also add a reference in the text to the Methods: “see Methods for spots selection criteria”.

      - The absence of an effect on firing rate for paired stimulations is only shown for one example (Figure 1c). A quantification of the population level would be interesting.

      - Only one example neuron is shown to support the conclusion that "two different neural circuits mediate suppression and entrainment" in Figure 3. A population analysis would provide more evidence.

      Thank you very much for these comments. We added a population analysis in Figure 3. This analysis shows a dissociation between firing rate suppression and the entrainment groups (Figure 3c-d). This suggests that two different circuits mediate suppression and entrainment.

      - Only one example neuron is shown to illustrate the effect of GC stimulation on gamma rhythmicity of MTCs in Figures 4 f,g.

      In this figure, we show that the activation of subsets of GCL neurons elevated odor-evoked spike synchronization to the gamma rhythm. We thought it would be beneficial to demonstrate the change in spike entrainment following GCL neurons optogenetic activation regardless of the ongoing OB gamma oscillations, using the method presented by Fukunaga et al., 2014. However, this analysis requires that the neuron has a relatively high firing rate. As we describe in the figure legend of this panel, this neuron is probably a tufted cell based on the findings shown in Fukunaga et al., 2014 and Burton & Urban, 2021. Most of our recorded cells had a lower firing rate, which coincides with our typical recording depth, targeting mitral cells rather than tufted cells (~400µm deep). Since this analysis is shown only over a single neuron, we moved it to Supplementary Figure 4.

      - In Figure 5 and the corresponding text, "proximal" and "distal" GC activation are not clearly defined.

      We agree. Initially, we used these terms to refer to GC columns that include the recorded MTC (proximal) and columns that are away from it (distal). We decided that instead of using a coarse division, we would show the whole range of distances. We updated the analysis in Figure 5d to show the effect of GC optogenetic activation on MTC odor-evoked responses as a function of the distance from the recorded MTC.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary

      This study provides a detailed analysis and dissociation between two effects of activation of lateral inhibitory circuits in the olfactory bulb on ongoing single mitral/tufted cell (MTC) spiking activity, namely enhanced synchronization in the gamma frequency range or lateral inhibition of firing rate.

      The authors use a clever combination of single-cell recordings, optogenetics with variable spatial stimulation of MTCs and sensory stimulation in vivo, and established mathematical methods to describe changes in autocorrelation/synchronization of a single MTC's spiking activity upon activation of lateral glomerular MTC ensembles. This assay is rounded off by a gain-of-function experiment in which the authors enhance granule cell (GC) excitation to establish a causal relation between GC activation and enhanced synchronization to gamma (they had used this manipulation in their previous paper Dalal & Haddad 2022, but use a smaller illumination spot here for spatially restricted activation).

      Strengths

      This study is of high interest for olfactory processing - since it shows directly that interactions between only two selected active receptor channels are sufficient to enhance the synchronization of single neurons to gamma in one channel (and thus by inference most likely in both). These interactions are distance-independent over many 100s of µms and thus can allow for non-topographical inhibitory action across the bulb, in contrast to the center-surround lateral inhibition known from other sensory modalities.

      In my view, parallels between vision and olfaction might have been overemphasized so far, since the combinatorial encoding of olfactory stimuli across the glomerular map might require different mechanisms of lateral interaction versus vision. This result is indicative of such a major difference.

      Such enhanced local synchronization was observed in a subset of activated channel pairs; in addition, the authors report another type of lateral interaction that does involve the reduction of firing rates, drops off with distance and most likely is caused by a different circuit-mediated by PV+ neurons (PVN; the evidence for which is circumstantial).

      Weaknesses/Room for improvement

      Thus this study is an impressive proof of concept that however does not yet allow for broad generalization. Therefore the framing of results should be slightly more careful in my opinion.

      We agree with the reviewer. We copy here our response to reviewer #1, who raised the same issue.

      We agree that direct evidence of mutual synchronization between multiple recorded MTCs has not been shown in our study. Our study only shows a mechanism that can enable this synchronization. We now state this clearly in the manuscript. We relayed previous studies that tested MTC spike synchronization. Specifically, Schoppa 2006, reported that electrical OSN stimulation evokes MTC spikes synchronization in the gamma range, in-vitro. Kashiwadni et al., 1999 and Doucette et al., showed that odor-evoked MTC spike times are synchronized, in-vivo. Given these studies, we asked what is the underlying mechanism that can support such a synchronization. Our study demonstrates that activating a group of MTCs can entrain another MTC in an activity-dependent and distance-independent manner. We claim this could be the underlying mechanism for the odor-evoked synchronization as demonstrated by these previous studies.

      To make sure this is clearly stated in the manuscript we changed the title to “Activity-dependent lateral inhibition enables the synchronization of active olfactory bulb projection neurons”, and rephrased a sentence in the abstract to “This lateral synchronization was particularly effective when the recorded MTC fired at the gamma rhythm”. To further clarify this point, we made several other changes throughout the results and the discussion section.

      Along this line, the conclusions regarding two different circuits underlying lateral inhibition vs enhanced synchronization are not quite justified by the data, e.g.

      (1) The authors mention that their granule cell stimulation results in a local cold spot (l. 527 ff) - how can they then said to be not involved in the inhibition of firing rate (bullet point in Highlights)? Please elaborate further. In l.406 they also state that GCs can inhibit MTCs under certain conditions. The argument, that this stimulation is not physiological, makes sense, but still does not rule out anything. You might want to cite Aghvami et al 2022 on the very small amplitude of GC-mediated IPSPs, also McIntyre and Cleland 2015.

      We apologize for the lack of clarity. We reported that we found a local cold spot in the context of an additional experiment not presented in the manuscript and only described in the Methods section. Following the revision, we decided to add the analysis of this experiment to Figure 5. This experiment validated that optogenetic activation of GCs is potent and can affect the recorded MTC firing rates. This is particularly important as we performed all experiments under Ketamine anesthesia, which is a NMDA receptor antagonist. In this experiment, we recorded the activity of MTCs at baseline conditions (without odor presentation) under optogenetic activation of GCs. We divided the OB surface into a grid and optogenetically activated GC columns at a random order, one light spot in each trial, using light patches of size of size 330um2. We used the same light intensity as in the optogenetic GC activation during odor stimulation (reported in Figures 4-5). We show that the recorded MTC was strongly inhibited by GC light activation, mostly when activating GCs in its vicinity (within its column, i.e., local cold spot). This experiment validates that in our experimental setup, GCs can exert inhibition over MTCs at baseline conditions.

      (2) Even from the shown data, it appears that laterally increased synchronization might co-occur with lateral suppression (See also comment on Figures 1d,e and Figure S1c)

      We kindly note that the panels you referred to do not quantify the firing rate but the rhythmicity of MTC light-evoked responses. We should have explained these graphs better in the main text and not only in the Methods section. We added a panel to Supplementary Figure 1, which describes our analysis: In each of these examples, we performed a time-frequency Wavelet analysis over the average response of the neurons across trials (computed using a sliding Gaussian with a std of 2ms). The results of the Wavelet analysis allowed us to visually capture the enhanced spike alignment across trials under paired activation as a function of the stimulus duration (as, for example, in Figure 1c, middle panel). The response amplitude to light stimulation did not change in this example (shown in Figure 1c lower panel), and the spikes entrainment increased following paired activation of MTCs.

      To address the relations between lateral suppression and synchronization at the population level, we added additional analyses to Figure 3c-d.

      (3) There are no manipulations of PVN activity in this study, thus there is no direct evidence for the substrate of the second circuit.

      We completely agree with the reviewer. Using the current data, we can only claim that optogenetic activation of GCL neurons did not affect the MTC odor-evoked response. This finding is consistent with the loss-of-function experiment reported by Fukunaga et al., 2014, where GC suppression did not change odor-evoke responses in both anesthetized and awake mice. Therefore, we speculated that PVN might be a candidate OB interneuron to mediate lateral inhibition between MTCs. This hypothesis is based on their higher likelihood of interconnecting two MTCs compared with GCs (Burton, 2017). We elaborated on this in the discussion and made sure it is clearly stated as a hypothesis.

      (4) The manipulation of GC activity was performed in a transgenic line with viral transfection, which might result in a lower permeation of the population compared to the line used for optogenetic stimulation of MTCs.

      We used a previously validated protocol for optogenetic manipulation of GCs from Fukunaga et al., 2014 in order to minimize this caveat. As we cited previously from their paper, following the expression of ChR2 in the GCL, ‘Light presentation in vivo resulted in rapid and strong depolarization of, and action potential (AP) discharges in, GCs (Fig. 3b), which in turn consistently and strongly hyperpolarized M/TCs (9 of 9 cells showed 100% AP suppression; Fig. 3c,d)’. These results are consistent with the additional experiment we added to the manuscript, where optogenetic activation of GCL neurons strongly suppressed MTC activity during baseline conditions (without odor presentation). The high similarity between these two reports, in which, in the case of Fukunaga et al., GC activation was directly measured, suggests that lack of opsin expression or insufficient light intensity is unlikely to explain the lack of GCL neuron activation effect on lateral inhibition. Moreover, GCL neurons' optogenetic activation during odor stimulation increased MTC spike-LFP coupling in the gamma range. Therefore, the dissociation between the effects of GCL neurons on spike entrainment and lateral inhibition suggests that the lack of lateral inhibition following GC activation is unlikely due to low expression rates.

      In some instances, the authors tend to cite older literature - which was not yet aware of the prominent contribution of EPL neurons including PVN to recurrent and lateral inhibition of MT cells - as if roles that then were ascribed to granule cells for lack of better knowledge can still be unequivocally linked to granule cells now. For example, they should discuss Arevian et al (2006), Galan et al 2006, Giridhar et al., Yokoi et al. 1995, etc in the light of PVN action.

      Therefore it is also not quite justified to state that their result regarding the role of GCs specifically for synchronization, not suppression, is "in contrast to the field" (e.g. l.70 f.,, l.365, l. 400 ff).

      We changed several sentences in the discussion and introduction to explain that previous studies attributed lateral suppression to GC because they were not aware of the prominent contribution of EPL neurons as has been demonstrated by more recent studies (Burton 2024, Huang et al., 2016,  Kato et al., 2013, and more).

      We also toned down the statement that these findings are in contrast to the field. Instead, we state that our findings support the claim that GCs are not involved in affecting MTC odor-evoked firing rate.

      Why did the authors choose to use the term "lateral suppression", often interchangeably with lateral inhibition? If this term is intended to specifically reflect reductions of firing rates, it might be useful to clearly define it at first use (and cite earlier literature on it) and then use it consistently throughout.

      We agree and have changed the manuscript accordingly. We added the following in the introduction: “We use this phrase here to refer to a process that suppresses the firing rate of the post-synaptic neuron.”

      A discussion of anesthesia effects is missing - e.g. GC activity is known to be reportedly stronger in awake mice (Kato et al). This is not a contentious point at all since the authors themselves show that additional excitation of GCs enhances synchrony, but it should be mentioned.

      We completely agree and added a paragraph to the Discussion in this regard. Please see also the response to reviewer #1, who made a similar suggestion.

      Some citations should be added, in particular relevant recent preprints - e.g. Peace et al. BioRxiv 2024, Burton et al. BioRxiv 2024 and the direct evidence for a glutamate-dependent release of GABA from GCs (Lage-Rupprecht et al. 2020).

      We thank the reviewer for noting us these relevant recent manuscripts. We have now cited Peace et al., when discussing the spatial range of inhibition and gamma synchronization in the OB, Lage-Rupprecht et al in the context of the involvement of NMDA receptor in MTC-GC reciprocal synapse and Burton et al. when discussing PV neurons potential function.

      The introduction on the role of gamma oscillations in sensory systems (in particular vision) could be more elaborated.

      In our previous paper (Dalal & Haddad 2022) we had an elaborated introduction on the role of gamma oscillations in sensory processing, since we focused in this study in the effect of gamma synchronization on information transmission between brain regions. In the current study we looked at gamma rhythms as a mechanism that can facilitate ensemble synchronization.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This study by Dalal and Haddad analyzes two facets of cooperative recruitment of M/TCs as discerned through direct, ChR2-mediated spot stimulations:

      (1) mutual inhibition and

      (2) entrainment of action potential timing within the gamma frequency range.

      This investigation is conducted by contrasting the evoked activity elicited by a "central" stimulus spot, which induces an excitatory response alone, with that elicited when paired with stimulations of surrounding areas. Additionally, the effect of Gad2-expressing granule cells is examined.

      Based on the observed distance dependence and the impact of GC stimulations, the authors infer that mutual inhibition and gamma entrainment are mediated by distinct mechanisms.

      Strengths:

      The results presented in this study offer a nice in vivo validation of the significant in vitro findings previously reported by Arevian, Kapoor, and Urban in 2008. Additionally, the distance-dependent analysis provides some mechanistic insights.

      We thank the reviewer for his comments. Indeed, the current study provides in-vivo replication of the results reported in Arevian et al., 2008 in-vitro, and adds further insights by showing that lateral inhibition is distant-dependent. However, this is not the main focus of the current study. Following the findings reported by Dalal & Haddad 2022, the motivation for this study was to test the mechanism that allows co-activated MTCs to entrain their spike timing. By light-activating pairs of MTCs at varying distances, we detected a subset of pairs in which paired light-activation evoked activity-dependent lateral inhibition, as was reported by Arevian et al., 2008. Moreover, we think it is highly important to know that a previous result in an in-vitro study is fully reproducible in-vivo.

      Weaknesses:

      The results largely reproduce previously reported findings, including those from the authors' own work, such as Dalal and Haddad (2022), where a key highlight was "Modulating GC activities dissociates MTCs odor-evoked gamma synchrony from firing rates." Some interpretations, particularly the claim regarding the distance independence of the entrainment effect, may be considered over-interpretations.

      We kindly disagree with the reviewer. We think the current study extends rather than reproduces the findings reported in Dalal & Haddad 2022. The 2022 study mainly focused on the effect of OB gamma synchronization on odor representation in the Piriform cortex. We bidirectionally modulated the level of MTC gamma synchronization and found that it had bidirectional effects on odor representation in one of their downstream targets, the anterior piriform cortex. The current study, however, focuses on the question of how spatially distributed odor-activated MTCs can synchronize their spiking activity. Our current main finding is that paired activation of MTCs can enhance the spikes entrainment of the recorded MTC in an activity-dependent and spatially independent manner. We suggest that this mechanism is mediated by GCL neurons.

      The reviewer did not explain why he\she thinks that the distance independence of the entrainment effects is an over-interpretation. However, to make our claim more precise we added the following sentence to the corresponding results section:” Furthermore, within the distance range that we were able to measure, the increased phase-locking did not significantly correlate with the distance from the MTC”

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Minor comments:

      (1) Line 17f: "This lateral synchronization was particularly effective when both MTCs fired at the gamma rhythm, ..."

      This sentence implies a direct comparison of the simultaneously recorded firing of MTCs but I could not find evidence for this in this manuscript. I would suggest to change this.

      We thank the reviewer. The sentence was changed to “This lateral synchronization was particularly effective when the recorded MTC fired at the gamma rhythm”.

      (2) Line 43f: A brief description of what glomeruli are could help to avoid confusion for readers less familiar with the OB. The phrasing of "activated glomeruli" and "each glomerulus innervates" are somewhat misleading given that they do not contain the cell bodies of the projection neurons.

      We edited this part of the introduction so it briefly describes what glomeruli are: ‘Olfactory processing starts with the activity of odorant-activated olfactory sensory neurons. The axons of these sensory neurons terminate in one or two anatomical structures called glomeruli located on the surface of the olfactory bulb (OB). Each glomerulus is innervated by several mitral and tufted cells (MTCs), which then project the odor information to several cortical regions. ‘

      (3) Line 78ff: The text sounds as if glomeruli are activated by the light stimulation but ChR2 is expressed in MTCs, the postsynaptic component of the glomeruli. It would be clearer to refer to the stimulation as light activation of MTCs.

      We corrected this sentence to: ‘We first mapped each recorded cell's receptive field, i.e., the set of MTCs on the dorsal OB that affect its firing rates when they are light-stimulated.’

      (4) Line 90: It would be great to mention somewhere in this paragraph that you are analyzing single-unit data sorted from extracellular recordings with tungsten electrodes.

      We added that to the description of the experimental setup: ‘To investigate how MTCs interact, we expressed the light-gated channel rhodopsin (ChR2) exclusively in MTCs by crossing the Tbet-Cre and Ai32 mouse lines (Grobman et al., 2018; Haddad et al., 2013), and extracellularly recorded the spiking activity of MTCs in anesthetized mice during optogenetic stimulation using tungsten electrodes.’

      (5) Line 97: The term "delta entrainment" could be easily confused with the entrainment of MTCs to respiration in the delta frequency band. Maybe better to use a different term or stick to "change in entrainment" also used in the text.

      We completely agree. The term was changed to “change in entrainment” throughout the manuscript and figures.

      (6) Line 121f: "Light stimulation did not affect ..." . Should this be "Paired light stimulation did not affect ..."?

      Corrected, thank you.

      (7) Supplementary Figure 1a: The example is not very convincing. It looks a bit like a rhythmic bursting neuron mildly depending on the stimulation.

      This panel serves to present our light stimulation method. The potency of the light stimulation protocol can be seen in the receptive field maps.

      (8) Supplementary Figure 1c: Why is there no confidence interval for 'Paired'?

      This panel shows the power spectrum density of the average neuron response across trials computed over the entire stimulus window (100ms). We decided to remove this panel, as panel Figure 1d shows the evolution of the entrainment in time and, therefore, provides better insight into the effect.

      (9) Line 166f: "... across any light intensities". Maybe better "... for the four light intensities tested"?

      We agree, we changed the text in accordance.

      (10) Figure 2f: It would be more intuitive to have the x-axis in the same orientation as in 2e.

      Corrected, thank you.

      (11) Figure 4a: The image in this panel is identical to Figure 1a in Dalal and Haddad 2022 in Cell reports just with a different intensity. The reuse of items and data from previous publications should be indicated somewhere but I could not find it.

      We apologize for this replication. We replaced it with a photo showing a larger portion of the OB, demonstrating the restricted viral expression within the GCL.

      (12) Line 408ff: A brief explanation for the hypothesis of EPL parvalbumin interneurons as the ones mediating lateral inhibition would be great.

      We agree. We added the following paragraph to the discussion section: “We speculate that MTC-to-MTC suppression is mediated by EPL neurons, most likely the Parvalbumin neuron (PV). This hypothesis is based on their activity and connectivity properties with MTCs(Burton, 2017; Kato et al., 2013; Miyamichi et al., 2013; Burton, 2024). More studies are required to reveal how PV neurons affect MTC activity.”

      (13) Line 425ff: You show that only activity of high firing rate neurons is suppressed by lateral inhibition, whereas "low and noise MTC responses" are not affected. Wouldn't this rather support the conclusion that lateral inhibition prevents excess activity from the OB?

      We found lateral inhibition was mainly effective when the postsynaptic neurons fired at ~30-80Hz in response to light stimulation. That is, it affects MTC firing in this “intermediate” rate, and to a lesser extent when the MTC have low and very high firing rates. To prevent excess activity, one would expect a mechanism that affects more high firing rates than medium ones. This was demonstrated in Kato 2013 for PV-MTC inhibition

      (14) Line 387: "..., only ~20% of the tested MTC pairs exhibited significant lateral inhibition." This is higher than the 16% of neurons you reported to have lateral entrainment (line 100). Why do you consider the lateral inhibition as 'sparse' but the lateral entrainment as relevant?

      We apologize for this unclear statement. The papers we cited in this regard (Fantana et al., 2008; Lehmann et al., 2016; Pressler and Strowbridge, 2017) have tested lateral inhibition when the recorded MTC was not active, which resulted in a sparse MTC-MTC inhibition. We validated and replicated these findings in our setup, by systematically projecting light spots over the dorsal OB without simultaneous activation of the recorded MTC and found similar rates of largely scarce inhibition (data not shown). In this study, using spike-triggered average light stimulation protocol and paired activation of MTCs, we found higher rates of lateral inhibition, consistent with the reports by Isaacson and Strowbridge, 1998, Urban and Sakmann, 2002. We changed this paragraph to the following:

      “We found that in only ~20% of the tested MTC pairs exhibited significant lateral suppression. This rate is consistent with previous in-vitro studies that found lateral suppression between 10-20% of heterotypic MTC pairs (Isaacson and Strowbridge, 1998; Urban and Sakmann, 2002), and is higher compared to a case where the recorded MTC is not active (Lehmann et al., 2016).”

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Figure-by-figure comments:

      (1) Figures 1d,e: both these examples seem to show that the firing rate is decreased in the paired condition? From maxima at 110 to 58 Hz in d and 100 to 48 Hz in e. Please explain (see also comment on Figure S1c).

      Please see the response in the Public Review section, reviewer #2, bullet (2). We also added a panel to Supplementary Figure 1 to better explain this.

      (2) Figure 1 f The means and SEMs are hard to see. Why is the SEM bar plotted horizontally? Since this is a major finding of the paper, will there be a table provided that shows the distribution of ∆ shifts across animals?

      We apologize for the mistake. The horizontal bar was the marking of the mean. Since the SEM is small, we corrected the graph for better visualization of the SEM.

      (3) Figure 1g Showing the running average of data where there is almost none or no data points (beyond 50 Hz) seems not ideal. Is the enhanced entrainment around 40Hz significant? Perhaps the moving average should be replaced by binned data with indicated n?

      We prefer to show all data points instead of binning the data so the reader can see it all. We agree that such a wide range on the x-axis is unnecessary. We shorten this graph only to include the firing rate range in which the data points ranged.

      (4) Figure 1h Impressive result!

      Thank you!

      (5) Figure S1a: since the authors show the respiratory pattern here and there obviously was no alignment of light stimulation with inspiration, was there any correlation between the respiratory phase and efficiency of light stimulation with respect to lateral interactions?

      This is an interesting idea. In Haddad et al., 2013, figure 7, the authors performed a similar analysis, and showed that optogenetic activation of MTCs had a more pronounced effect on firing rate in the respiration phases where the neuron was less firing. However, we haven’t quantified the impact of lateral interactions with respect to the respiration phase. That being said, the data will be publicly available to test this question.

      (6) Figure S1c: Here the shift towards a lower firing rate seems to be obvious (see comment in Figures 1 d and e). Please also show the plot for Figure 1e.

      This panel shows the power spectrum density of the average neuron's response across trials computed over the entire stimulus window (100ms). We decided to remove this panel, as panel Figure 1d shows the evolution of the entrainment in time and, therefore, provides better insight into the effect.

      (7) Figure 2b: show the same plot also for pair 2? Why is it stated that there is no lateral suppression for lateral stimulation alone, if the MTC did not spike spontaneously in the first place and thus inhibition cannot be demonstrated?

      We use Figure 2b to demonstrate the effect of lateral inhibition, and in Figure 2c we detail the responses under each light intensity for both pairs. We think that showing the mean and SEM for one example is enough to give a sense of the effect, as in Figure 2c we show the average response across time together with significant assessment for each pair (panels without a p-value have no significant difference between the conditions).

      However, we agree with the comment on this specific example and therefore deleted this sentence. However, at the population level we found no inhibition when activating the lateral spots, regardless of their firing rates (shown in Supplementary Figure 2a).

      (8) Figure 2d: why is there no distance-dependent color coding for the significant data points? Or, alternatively, since the distance plot is shown in 2e, perhaps drop this information altogether? Again, the moving average is problematic.

      Distance-dependent color coding is applied to all data points in this panel. Significant data points are shown in full circles and have distance-dependent color coding, which is mainly restricted to the lower part of the distance scale (cold colors).

      We used a moving average to relate to the similar result reported in Arevian 2008.In Figure 2e, the actual distance for each data point is indicated on the x-axis.

      (9) Figure 2f: the diagonal averaging method seems to neglect a lot of the data in Figure S2b, why not use radial coordinates for averaging?

      Thank you for the great suggestion. We indeed performed radial coordinates for the averaging, and the results are more robust and better summarize the entire data.

      (10) Figure 3: These are interesting observations, but are there cumulative data on such types of pairs? Please describe and show, otherwise this can only be a supplemental observation. Regarding 3b was it always the lower light intensity that resulted in suppression and the higher in sync? Since Burton et al. 2024 have just shown that PVNs require very little input to fire!

      This figure shows several examples of entrainment and inhibition properties. As suggested, we added population analysis (Figure 3c-d). This analysis compares the firing rate changes in pairs that evoked significant suppression or entrainment. First, we found only a few pairs in which paired activation evoked both spikes entrainment and suppression. Second, the mean of firing rate changes of pairs that evoked significant entrainment (N=50, shown in Figure 1f in full circles) is significantly different from the mean of the pairs that evoked significant lateral inhibition (N=51, shown in Figure 2d in full circles).

      (11) Figure 4: This Figure and the corresponding section should be entitled "Additional GC activation... ", otherwise it might be confusing for the reader. A loss of function manipulation (local GC silencing) would be also great to have! You did this in the previous paper, why not here? Raw LFP data are not shown. In Figure 4e the reported odor response firing rate ranges only up to 40Hz, but the example in g shows a much higher frequency. Is the maximum in 4e significant? (same issue as for Figure 1g).

      We changed the phrase to ‘optogenetic GCL neurons activation’. Unfortunately, we haven’t performed experiments where we suppress GC columns. In the previous paper, we suppressed the activity of all accessible GCs, which resulted in reduced spike synchronization to the OB gamma oscillations. Silencing only the GC column is, we think, unlikely to have a substantial effect, especially if the GCs have low activity (but this needs to be tested). Furthermore, we added examples of raw LFP data for odor stimulation and odor combined with GCL column activation (see Supplementary Figure 4a).

      The instantaneous firing rate is high (~80Hz), however the firing rate values we report in Figure 4e is the average within a window of 2 seconds (the odor duration is 1.5 seconds and we extend the window to account for responses with late return to baseline). The average firing rate of this example neuron in this window was 28Hz.

      (12) Fig 5: what does "proximal" mean - does this mean stimulation of the GCs below the recorded MTC, that might actually belong to the same glomerular unit?

      Yes, by “proximal” we mean the activation of the GC in the column of the recorded MTC. However, we decided that instead of coarsely dividing the data into proximal and distal optogenetic activation of GCL neurons, we will show the data continuously to show that GC had no significant effect on MTC odor-evoked firing rates regardless of their location (Figure 5d).

      A comment on the title:

      Please tone it down: "Ensemble synchronization" is a hypothesis at this point, not directly shown in the paper. Also, the paper does not show lateral interactions between odor-activated neurons.

      We agree and have rephrased it to “Activity-dependent lateral inhibition enables the synchronization of active olfactory bulb projection neurons ”

      (1) Figure 1a, 2a scale bar missing.

      Corrected, thank you.

      (2) Figure 1 c is the "rebound" in the lateral stim trace (green) real or not significant?

      The activity during this rebound is not significantly different than the baseline activity before light stimulation.

      (3) Figure 2b legend: "lateral alone" instead of lateral?

      We appreciate the suggestion. For simplicity, we will keep it as “lateral”.

      (4) Figure 2c: some of the data plots seem to be breaking off, e.g. the blue line in the bottom third one.

      This line breaking is due to the lack of spikes in this period. The PSTHs used in all analyses result from the convolution of the spike train with a Gaussian window with a standard deviation of 50ms.

      (5) Figure 2f: Why is the x axis flopped vs 2d,e?

      This panel was mistakenly plotted that way, and was corrected.

      Comments on the text:

      Abstract - we had indicated suggestions by strike-throughs and color which are lost in the online submission system, please compare with your original text:

      Information in the brain is represented by the activity of neuronal ensembles. These ensembles are adaptive and dynamic, formed and truncated based on the animal`s experience. One mechanism by which spatially distributed neurons form an ensemble is via synchronization of their spiking activity in response to a sensory event. In the olfactory bulb, odor stimulation evokes rhythmic gamma activity in spatially distributed mitral and tufted cells (MTCs). This rhythmic activity is thought to enhance the relay of odor information to the downstream olfactory targets. However, how only specifically the odor-activated MTCs are synchronized is unknown. Here, we demonstrate that light optogenetic activation of activating one set of MTCs can gamma-entrain the spiking activity of another set. This lateral synchronization was particularly effective when both MTCs fired at the gamma rhythm, facilitating the synchronization of only the odor-activated MTCs. Furthermore, we show that lateral synchronization did not depend on the distance between the MTCs and is mediated by granule cells. In contrast, lateral inhibition between MTCs that reduced their firing rates was spatially restricted to adjacent MTCs and was not mediated by granule cells. Our findings reveal lead us to propose ? a simple yet robust mechanism by which spatially distributed neurons entrain each other's spiking activity to form an ensemble.

      Thank you. We adopted most of the changes and edited the abstract to reflect the reported results better.

      "both MTCs fired at the gamma rhythm"/this is at this point unwarranted since the mutual entrainment is not shown - tone down or present as hypothesis?

      We completely agree. This sentence was changed to “This lateral synchronization was particularly effective when the recorded MTC fired at the gamma rhythm, facilitating the synchronization of the active MTC”.

      l. 28: distance-independent instead of "spatially independent"?

      Corrected

      l. 46: are there inhibitory neurons in the ONL? Or which 6 layers are you referring to here?

      Corrected to “spanning all OB layers”.

      l. 49: "is mediated" => "likely to be mediated". Schoppa's work is in vitro and did not account for PVNs, see comment in Public Review.

      Corrected. Indeed Schoppa`s work was performed in-vitro. We cite it here since it showed that the synchronized firing of two MTC pairs depends on granule cells.

      l.52: "method"? rather "mechanism"? "specifically" instread of "only"?

      Corrected.

      l.52: perhaps more precise: a recent hypothesis is that GCs enable synchronization solely between odor-activated MTCs via an activity-dependent mechanism for GABA-release (Lage Rupprecht et al. 2020 - please cite the experimental paper here). Again. Galan has no direct evidence for GCs vs PVNs, see comment in Public Review.

      Thank you, we updated this sentence here and in the discussion and added the relevant citation.

      l. 66: spike timings instead of spike's timing?

      Corrected to spike timings

      l. 67 -71: this part could be dropped.

      We appreciate the suggestion; however, we think that it is convenient to briefly read the main results before the results section.

      l. 76 mouse instead of mice.

      Corrected.

      l. 77: for clarification: " a single MTC"?

      In some cases, we recorded more than one cell simultaneously.

      l. 89: just use "hotspot".

      Corrected

      l. 97 instead of "change", "positive change" or "increase"?

      We left the word change, since we wanted to report that the change between hotspot alone and paired stimulation was significantly higher than zero.

      l. 104: the postsyn MTC's firing rate.

      Corrected to MTC instead of MTCs

      l.108: "distributed on the OB surface" sounds misleading, perhaps "across the glomerular map"?

      Corrected.

      l. 254: "which the MTCs form with each other"- perhaps "which interconnect MTCs".

      Corrected.

      l. 270 Additional GC activation.

      Corrected to ‘optogenetic activation of GCL neurons’

      l. 284 somewhat unclear - please expand.

      Corrected to ‘This measure minimizes the bias of the neuron's firing rate on the spike-LFP synchrony value’.

      l. 371: no odors in Schoppa et al.

      Corrected to ‘It has been shown that two active MTCs can synchronize their stimulus-evoked and odor-evoked spike timings’

      l. 406 ff. good point - but where is the transition? How does this observation rule out that GCs can mediate lateral suppression?

      It is an important question. We tested two setups of GCs optogenetic activation, either column activation (in this paper) or the activation of all accessible GCs of the dorsal OB (Dalal & Haddad, 2022). Although the latter manipulation results in significant firing rate suppression, the effect of MTC suppression was relatively small in anesthetized mice and even smaller in awake mice. Optogenetically activating GCs at baseline conditions resulted in a strong suppression of only the adjacent MTCs. Taken together, we think that GCs are capable of strongly inhibit MTCs, but it is not their main function in natural olfactory sensation.

      l. 422 ff: again, this is a hypothesis, please frame accordingly.

      Corrected to ‘Activity-dependent synchronization can enables the synchronization of odor-activated MTCs that are dispersed across the glomerular map’

      l. 551 typo.

      Corrected.

      l 556 ff: Figure 2 does not show odor responses.

      Corrected.

      l 582: Mix up of above/below and low/high?

      Corrected to ‘The values in the STA map that were above or below these high and low percentile thresholds’

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Line 76: "Ai39" should be corrected to "Ai32".

      Corrected. Thank you.

      Figure Legends: The legends should describe the results rather than interpret the data. For instance, the legends for Figures 1f, g, and h contain interpretations. The authors should review all legends and revise them accordingly.

      We appreciate the comment. However, we kindly disagree. We don’t see these opening sentences as interpretations but as guidance to the reader. For example, ‘Paired stimulation increases spikes’ temporal precision’ is not an interpretation; instead, it describes the finding presented in this panel. We think that legends that only repeat what can already be deduced from the graph are not helpful and, in many cases, obsolete. Explaining what we think this graph shows is common, and we prefer it as it helps the reader.

      For Figures 1d and e, it may be beneficial to add the spectrograms for the second stimulation alone.

      We show the stimulation of the hotspot alone and when we stimulate both.<br /> The spectrogram of the lateral alone does not show anything of importance.

      Figures 1a and 2a: Please add color bars so that readers can understand the meaning of the colors plotted.

      Color bars were added.

      Figure 3: The purpose of this figure is unclear. Why does the baseline firing rate for the paired activation differ? Is this an isolated observation, or is it observed in other units as well?

      This issue has been raised also by reviewer #2. Attached here is our response to reviewer #2

      This figure shows several examples of entrainment and inhibition properties. As suggested, we added population analysis (Figure 3c-d). This analysis compares the firing rate changes in pairs that evoked significant suppression or entrainment. First, we found only a few pairs in which paired activation evoked both spikes entrainment and suppression. Second, the mean of firing rate changes of pairs that evoked significant entrainment (N=50, shown in Figure 1f in full circles) is significantly different from the mean of the pairs that evoked significant lateral inhibition (N=51, shown in Figure 2d in full circles).

      Figures 4 and 5 data seems to come from the same dataset as in Dalal and Haddad (2022) DOI: https://doi.org/10.1016/j.celrep.2022.110693. For example, the fluorescence image looks identical. If this is the case, the authors may want to state that that the image and and some of the data and analyses are reproduced.

      The recorded data shown in these figures are not reproduced from Dalal & Haddad 2022. We collected this data, using GC-columns activation instead of light activating the entire OB dorsal surface as was done in the 2022 paper.

      However, the histology image is the same and we now replaced it with a new image, which shows that the expression is restricted to the GCL.

      Figure 4d: the authors use the data plotted here to argue that the gamma entrainment is distance-independent. But there is a clear decrease over distance (e.g., delta PPC1 over 0.01 is not seen for distance beyond 1000 m). The claim of distance independence may be an over-interpretation of the data. Peace et al. (2024) also claimed that coupling via gamma oscillations occurs over a large spatial extent.

      From a statistical point of view, we can’t state that there is a dependency on distance as the correlation is insignificant (P = 0.86). PPC1 of value 0.01 can be found at 0, 500, and 700 microns. Lower values are found at far distances, but this can result from a smaller number of points. The reduced level of synchrony observed at distances above one mm could be the result of the reduced density of lateral interactions at these distances. That said, we rephrase the sentence to a more careful statement. Please see the rephrased sentence at the Public review section.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this study, Zhang et al., presented an electrophysiology method to identify the layers of macaque visual cortex with high density Neuropixels 1.0 electrode. They found several electrophysiology signal profiles for high-resolution laminar discrimination and described a set of signal metrics for fine cortical layer identification.

      Strengths:

      There are two major strengths. One is the use of high density electrodes. The Neuropixels 1.0 probe has 20 um spacing electrodes, which can provide high resolution for cortical laminar identification. The second strength is the analysis. They found multiple electrophysiology signal profiles which can be used for laminar discrimination. Using this new method, they could identify the most thin layer in macaque V1. The data support their conclusion.

      Weaknesses:

      While this electrophysiology strategy is much easier to perform even in awake animals compared to histological staining methods, it provides an indirect estimation of cortical layers. A parallel histological study can provide a direct matching between the electrode signal features and cortical laminar locations. However, there are technical challenges, for example the distortions in both electrode penetration and tissue preparation may prevent a precise matching between electrode locations and cortical layers. In this case, additional micro wires electrodes binding with Neuropixels probe can be used to inject current and mark the locations of different depths in cortical tissue after recording.

      While we agree that it would be helpful to adopt a more direct method for linking laminar changes observed with electrophysiology to anatomical layers observed in postmortem histology, we do not believe that the approach suggested by the reviewer would be particularly helpful. The approach suggested involves making lesions, which are known to be quite variable in size, asymmetric in shape, and do not have a predictable geometry relative to the location of the electrode tip. In contrast, our electrophysiology measures have identified clear boundaries which precisely match the known widths and relative positions of all the layers of V1, including layer 4A, which is only 50 microns thick, much smaller than the resolution of lesion methods.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This paper documents an attempt to accurately determine the locations and boundaries of the anatomically and functionally defined layers in macaque primary visual cortex using voltage signals recorded from a high-density electrode array that spans the full depth of cortex with contacts at 20 um spacing. First, the authors attempt to use current source density (CSD) analysis to determine layer locations, but they report a striking failure because the results vary greatly from one electrode penetration to the next and because the spatial resolution of the underlying local field potential (LFP) signal is coarse compared to the electrical contact spacing. The authors thus turn to examining higher frequency signals related to action potentials and provide evidence that these signals reflect changes in neuronal size and packing density, response latency and visual selectivity.

      Strengths:

      There is a lot of nice data to look at in this paper that shows interesting quantities as a function of depth in V1. Bringing all of these together offers the reader a rich data set: CSD, action potential shape, response power and coherence spectrum, and post-stimulus time response traces. Furthermore, data are displayed as a function of eye (dominant or non-dominant) and for achromatic and cone-isolating stimuli.

      This paper takes a strong stand in pointing out weaknesses in the ability of CSD analysis to make consistent determinations about cortical layering in V1. Many researchers have found CSD to be problematic, and the observations here may be important to motivate other researchers to carry out rigorous comparisons and publish their results, even if they reflect negatively on the value of CSD analysis.

      The paper provides a thoughtful, practical and comprehensive recipe for assigning traditional cortical layers based on easily-computed metrics from electrophysiological recordings in V1, and this is likely to be useful for electrophysiologists who are now more frequently using high-density electrode arrays.

      Weaknesses:

      Much effort is spent pointing out features that are well known, for example, the latency difference associated with different retinogeniculate pathways, the activity level differences associated with input layers, and the action potential shape differences associated with white vs. gray matter. These have been used for decades as indicators of depth and location of recordings in visual cortex as electrodes were carefully advanced. High density electrodes allow this type of data to now be collected in parallel, but at discrete, regular sampling points. Rather than showing examples of what is already accepted, the emphasis should be placed on developing a rigorous analysis of how variable vs. reproducible are quantitative metrics of these features across penetrations, as a function of distance or functional domain, and from animal to animal. Ultimately, a more quantitative approach to the question of consistency is needed to assess the value of the methods proposed here.

      We thank the reviewer for suggesting the addition of quantitative metrics to allow more substantive comparisons between various measures within and between penetrations. We have added quantification and describe this in the context of more specific comments made by this reviewer. We have retained descriptions of metrics that are well established because they provide an important validation of our approaches and laminar assignments.

      Another important piece of information for assessing the ability to determine layers from spiking activity is to carry out post-mortem histological processing so that the layer determination made in this paper could be compared to anatomical layering.

      We are not aware of any approach that would provide such information at sufficient resolution. For example, it is well known that electrolytic lesions often do not match to the locations expected from electrophysiological changes observed with single electrodes. As noted above, our observation that the laminar changes in electrophysiology precisely match the known widths and relative positions of all the layers of V1, including layer 4A, provides confidence in our laminar assignments.

      On line 162, the text states that there is a clear lack of consistency across penetrations, but why should there be consistency: how far apart in the cortex were the penetrations? How long were the electrodes allowed to settle before recording, how much damage was done to tissue during insertion? Do you have data taken over time - how consistent is the pattern across several hours, and how long was the time between the collection of the penetrations shown here?

      Answers to most of these questions can be found within the manuscript text. We have added text describing distance between electrode penetrations (at least 1mm, typically far more) and added a figure which shows a map of the penetration locations. The Methods section describes electrode penetration methods to minimize damage and settling times of penetrations. Data are provided regarding changes in recordings over time (see Methods, Drift Correction). The stimuli used to generate the data described are presented within a total of 30 minutes or less, minimizing any changes that might occur due to electrode drift. There is a minimum of 3 hours between different penetrations from the same animal.

      The impact of the paper is lessened because it emphasizes consistency but not in a consistent manner. Some demonstrations of consistency are shown for CSDs, but not quantified. Figure 4A is used to make a point about consistency in cell density, but across animals, whereas the previous text was pointing out inconsistency across penetrations. What if you took a 40 or 60 um column of tissue and computed cell density, then you would be comparing consistency across potentially similar scales. Overall, it is not clear how all of these different metrics compare quantitatively to each other in terms of consistency.

      As noted above, we have now added quantitative comparisons of consistency between different metrics. It is unclear why the reviewer felt that we use Figure 4A to describe consistency. That figure was a photograph from a previous publication simply showing the known differences in neuron density that are used to define layers in anatomical studies. This was intended to introduce the reader to known laminar differences. At any rate, we have been unable to contact the previous publishers of that work to obtain permission to use the figure. So we have removed that figure as it is unnecessary to illustrate the known differences in cell density that are used to define layers. We have kept the citation so that interested readers can refer to the publication.

      In many places, the text makes assertions that A is a consistent indicator of B, but then there appear to be clear counterexamples in the data shown in the figures. There is some sense that the reasoning is relying too much on examples, and not enough on statistical quantities.

      Without reference to specific examples we are not able to address this point.

      Overall

      Overall, this paper makes a solid argument in favor of using action potentials and stimulus driven responses, instead of CSD measurements, to assign cortical layers to electrode contacts in V1. It is nice to look at the data in this paper and to read the authors' highly educated interpretation and speculation about how useful such measurements will be in general to make layer assignments. It is easy to agree with much of what they say, and to hope that in the future there will be reliable, quantitative methods to make meaningful segmentations of neurons in terms of their differentiated roles in cortical computation. How much this will end up corresponding to the canonical layer numbering that has been used for many decades now remains unclear.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Zhang et al. explored strategies for aligning electrophysiological recordings from high-density laminar electrode arrays (Neuropixels) with the pattern of lamination across cortical depth in macaque primary visual cortex (V1), with the goal of improving the spatial resolution of layer identification based on electrophysiological signals alone. The authors compare the current commonly used standard in the field - current source density (CSD) analysis - with a new set of measures largely derived from action potential (AP) frequency band signals. Individual AP band measures provide distinct cues about different landmarks or potential laminar boundaries, and together they are used to subdivide the spatial extent of array recordings into discrete layers, including the very thin layer 4A, a level of resolution unavailable when relying on CSD analysis alone for laminar identification. The authors compare the widths of the resulting subdivisions with previously reported anatomical measurements as evidence that layers have been accurately identified. This is a bit circular, given that they also use these anatomical measurements as guidelines limiting the boundary assignments; however, the strategy is overall sensible and the electrophysiological signatures used to identify layers are generally convincing. Furthermore, by varying the pattern of visual stimulation to target chromatically sensitive inputs known to be partially segregated by layer in V1, they show localized response patterns that lend confidence to their identification of particular sublayers.

      The authors compellingly demonstrate the insufficiency of CSD analysis for precisely identifying fine laminar structure, and in some cases its limited accuracy at identifying coarse structure. CSD analysis produced inconsistent results across array penetrations and across visual stimulus conditions and was not improved in spatial resolution by sampling at high density with Neuropixels probes. Instead, in order to generate a typical, informative pattern of current sources and sinks across layers, the LFP signals from the Neuropixels arrays required spatial smoothing or subsampling to approximately match the coarser (50-100 µm) spacing of other laminar arrays. Even with smoothing, the resulting CSDs in some cases predicted laminar boundaries that were inconsistent with boundaries estimated using other measures and/or unlikely given the typical sizes of individual layers in macaque V1. This point alone provides an important insight for others seeking to link their own laminar array recordings to cortical layers.

      They next offer a set of measures based on analysis of AP band signals. These measures include analyses of the density, average signal spread, and spike waveforms of single- and multi-units identified through spike sorting, as well as analyses of AP band power spectra and local coherence profiles across recording depth. The power spectrum measures in particular yield compact peaks at particular depths, albeit with some variation across penetrations, whereas the waveform measures most convincingly identified the layer 6-white matter transition. In general, some of the new measures yield inconsistent patterns across penetrations, and some of the authors' explanations of these analyses draw intriguing but rather speculative connections to properties of anatomy and/or responsivity. However, taken as a group, the set of AP band analyses appear sufficient to determine the layer 6-white matter transition with precision and to delineate intermediate transition points likely to correspond to actual layer boundaries.

      Strengths:

      The authors convincingly demonstrate the potential to resolve putative laminar boundaries using only electrophysiological recordings from Neuropixels arrays. This is particularly useful given that histological information is often unavailable for chronic recordings. They make a clear case that CSD analysis is insufficient to resolve the lamination pattern with the desired precision and offer a thoughtful set of alternative analyses, along with an order in which to consider multiple cues in order to facilitate others' adoption of the strategy. The widths of the resulting layers bear a sensible resemblance to the expected widths identified by prior anatomical measurements, and at least in some cases there are satisfying signatures of chromatic visual sensitivity and latency differences across layers that are predicted by the known connectivity of the corresponding layers. Thus, the proposed analytical toolkit appears to work well for macaque V1 and has strong potential to generalize to use in other cortical regions, though area-targeted selection of stimuli may be required.

      Weaknesses:

      The waveform measures, and in particular the unit density distribution, are likely to be sensitive to the criteria used for spike sorting, which differ widely among experimenters/groups, and this may limit the usefulness of this particular measure for others in the community. The analysis of detected unit density yields fluctuations across cortical depth which the authors attribute to variations in neural density across layers; however, these patterns seemed particularly variable across penetrations and did not consistently yield peaks at depths that should have high neuronal density, such as layer 2. Therefore, this measure has limited interpretability.

      While we agree that our electrophysiological measure of unit density does not strictly reflect anatomical neuronal density, we would like to remind the reader that we use this measure only to roughly estimate the correspondence between changes in density and likely layer assignments. We rely on other measures (e.g. AP power, AP power changes in response to visual stimuli) that have sharp borders and more clear transitions to assign laminar boundaries. Further, as noted in the reviewer’s list of strengths, the laminar assignments made with these measures are cross validated by differences in response latencies and sensitivity to different types of stimuli that are observed at different electrode depths.

      More generally, although the sizes of identified layers comport with typical sizes identified anatomically, a more powerful confirmation would be a direct per-penetration comparison with histologically identified boundaries. Ultimately, the absence of this type of independent confirmation limits the strength of their claim that veridical laminar boundaries can be identified from electrophysiological signals alone.

      As we have noted in response to similar comments from other reviewers, we are not aware of a method that would make this possible with sufficient resolution.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewing Editor (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The reviewers have indicated that their assessment would potentially be stronger if their advice for quantitative, statistically validated comparisons was followed, for example, to demonstrate variability or consistency of certain measures that are currently only asserted. Also, if available, some histological confirmation would be beneficial. It was requested that the use and modification of the layering from Balaram & Kaas is addressed, as well as dealing with inconsistencies in the scale bars on those figures. There are two figure permission issues that need to be resolved prior to publication: Balaram & Kaas 2014 in Fig 1A, Kelly & Hawken 2017 in Fig. 4A.

      Please see detailed responses to reviewer comments below. We have added new supplemental figures to quantitatively compare variability among metrics. As noted above, the suggested addition of data linking the electrophysiology directly to anatomical observations of laminar borders from the same electrode penetration is not feasible. The figure reused in Figure 1A is from open-access (CC BY) publication (Balaram & Kaas 2014). After reexamining the figure in the original study, we found that the inferred scale bar would give an obviously inaccurate result. So, we decided to remove the scale bar in Figure 1A. We haven’t received any reply from Springer Nature for Figure 4A permission, so we decided to remove the reused figure from our article (Kelly & Hawken 2017).

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):<br /> Figure 4A has a different scale to Figure 4B-4F. It is better to add dashed lines to indicate the relationship between the cortical layers or overall range from Figure 4A to the corresponding layers in 4B to 4F.

      The reused figure in Figure 4A is removed due to permission issue. See also comments above.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      General comments

      This paper demonstrates that voltage signals in frequency bands higher than those used for LFP/CSD analysis can be used from high-density electrical contact recording to generate a map of cortical layering in macaque V1 at a higher spatial resolution than previously attained.

      My main concern is that much of this paper seems to show that properties of voltage signals recorded by electrodes change with depth in V1. This of course is well known and has been mapped by many who have advanced a single electrode micron-by-micron through the cortex, listening and recording as they go. Figure 4 shows that spike shapes can give a clear indication of GM to WM borders, and this is certainly true and well known. Figures 5 and 6 show that activity level on electrodes can indicate layers related to LGN input, and this is known. Figure 7 shows that latencies vary with layer, and this is certainly true as we know. A main point seems to be that CSD is highly inconsistent. This is important to know if CSD is simply never going to be a good measure for layering in V1, but it would require quantification and statistics to make a fair comparison.

      We are glad to see that the reviewer understands that changes in electrical signals across layers are well known and are expected to have particular traits that change across layers. We do not claim that have discovered anything that is unexpected or unknown. Instead, we introduce quantitative measures that are sensitive to these known differences (historically, often just heard with an audio monitor e.g. “LGN axon hash”). While the primary aim of this paper is not to show that Neuropixels probes can record some voltage signal properties that cannot be recorded with a single electrode before, we would like to point out that multi-electrode arrays have a very different sampling bias and also allow comparisons of simultaneous recordings across contacts with known fixed distances between them. For example our measure of “unit spread” could not be estimated with a single electrode.

      We’ve added Figure S3 to show quantitative comparison of variation between CSD and AP metrics. These figures add support to our prior, more anecdotal descriptions showing that CSDs are inconsistent and lack the resolution needed to identify thin layers.

      Some things are not explained very clearly. Like achromatic regions, and eye dominance - these are not quantified, and we don't know if they are mutually consistent - are achromatic/chromatic the same when tested through separate eyes? How consistent are these basic definitions? How definitive are they?

      The quantitative definitions of achromatic region/COFD and eye dominance column can be found in our previous paper (Li et al., 2022) cited in this article. The main theme of this study is to develop a strategy for accurately identifying layers, the more detailed functional analysis will be described in future publications.

      Specific comments

      The abstract refers to CSD analysis and CSD signals. Can you be more precise - do you aim to say that LFP signals in certain frequency bands are already known to lack spatial localization, or are you claiming to be showing that LFP signals lack spatial resolution? A major point of the results appears to be lack of consistency of CSD, but I do not see that in the Abstract. The first sentence in the abstract appears to be questionable based on the results shown here for V1.

      We have updated the Abstract to minimize confusion and misunderstanding.

      Scale bar on Fig 1A implies that layers 2-5 are nearly 3 mm thick. Can you explain this thickness? Other figures here suggest layers 1-6 is less than 2 mm thick. Note, in a paper by the same authors (Balaram et al) the scale bar (100 um, Figure 4) on similar macaque tissue suggests that the cortex is much thinner than this. Perhaps neither is correct, but you should attempt to determine an approximately accurate scale. The text defines granular as Layer 4, but the scale bar in A implies layer 4 is 1 mm thick, but this does not match the ~0.5 mm thickness consistent with Figure 1E, F. The text states that L4A is less then 100 um thick, but the markings and scale bar in Figure 1A suggests that it could be more than 100 um thick.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out that there are clearly errors in the scale bars used in these previously published figures from another group. In the original figure 1(Balaram & Kaas 2014), histological slices were all scaled to one of the samples (Chimpanzee) without scale bar. After reexamining the scale bar we derived based on figure 2 of the original study, we found the same problem. Since relative widths of layers are more important than absolute widths in our study, we decided to remove the scale bar that we had derived and added to the Figure 1A.

      Line 157. Fix "The most commonly visual stimulus"

      Text has been changed

      Line 161. Fix "through dominate eye"

      Text has been changed

      Line 166. Please specify if the methods established and validated below are histological, or tell something about their nature here.

      The Abstract and Introduction already described the nature of our methods

      Line 184. Text is mixing 'dominant' and 'dominate', the former is better.

      Text has been changed accordingly

      Line 188. Can you clarify "beyond the time before a new stimulus transition". Are you generally referring to the fact that neuronal responses outlast the time between changes in the stimulus?

      That is correct. We are referring to the fact that neuronal responses outlast the time between changes in the stimulus. We have edited the text for clarity.

      Line 196. Fix "dominate eye" in two places.

      Text has been changed

      Line 196. The text seems to imply it is striking to find different response patterns for the two eyes, but given the OD columns, why should this be surprising?

      Since we didn’t find systematic comparison for CSD depth profiles of dominant/non-dominant eyes, or black/white in the past studies, we just describe what we saw in our data. The rational for testing each eye is that it is known that LGN projections from two eyes remain separated in direct input layer of V1, so comparing CSDs from two eyes could potentially help identifying input layers, such as L4C. Here we provide evidence showing that CSD profiles from two eyes deviate from naive expectations. For example, CSDs from black stimulus show less variation between two eyes, whereas CSDs from white stimulus could range from similar profile to drastically different ones across eyes.

      Line 198. Text like, "The most consistent..." is stating overall conclusions drawn by the authors before pointing the reader specifically to the evidence or the quantification that supports the statement.

      We’ve adjusted the text pointing to Figure S2, where depth profiles of all penetrations are visualized, and a newly added Figure S3, where the coefficients of variation for several metric profiles were shown.

      Line 200. "white stimulus is more variable" - the text does not tell us where/how this is supported with quantitative analysis/statistics.

      We’ve adjusted the text pointing to Figure S2, S3

      The metric in 4B is not explained, the text mentions the plot but the reader is unable to make any judgement without knowledge of the method, nor any estimate of error bars.

      The figure is first mentioned in section: Unit Density, and text in this section already described the definition of neuron density and unit density.  We’ve also modified the text pointing to the method section for details.

      Line 236. The text states the peak corresponds to L4C, but does not explain how the layer lines were determined.

      As described early in the CSD section, all layer boundaries are determined following the guide which layouts the strategy for how to draw borders by combining all metrics.

      At Line 296 the spike metrics section ends without providing a clear quantification of how useful the metrics will be. It is clear that the GM to WM boundary can be identified, but that can be found with single electrodes as well, as neurophysiologists get to see/hear the change in waveform as the electrode is advanced in even finer spatial increments than the 20 um spacing of the contacts here.

      The aim of this study is to develop an approach for accurately delineating layers simultaneously. The metrics we explored are considered estimation of well-known properties, so they can provide support for the correctness we hope to achieve. Here we first demonstrate the usefulness and later show the average across penetrations (Figure 9C-F). We are less concerned in quantification of how different factors affect precision and consistency of these metrics or how useful a single metric is, but rather, as described in the guide section, whether we can delineate all layers given all metrics.

      Line 302-306. Why this statement is made here is unclear, it interrupts the flow for a reason that perhaps will be explained later.

      This statement notes the insensitivity of this measure to temporal differences, introducing the value of incorporating a measure of how AP powers changes over time in the next section of the manuscript.

      Line 311. What is the reason to speculate about no canceling because of temporal overlap? Are you assuming a very sparse multi unit firing rate such that collisions do not happen?

      Here we describe a simple theoretical model in which spike waveforms only add without cancelling, then the power would be proportional to the number of spikes. In reality, spike waveform sometimes cancels causing the theoretical relationship to deteriorate to some degree.

      Lines 327-346. There is a considerable amount of speculation and arguing based on particular examples and there is a lack of quantification. Neuron density is mentioned, but not firing rate. would responses from fewer neurons with higher firing rate not be similar to more neurons with lower firing rates?

      According to the theoretical model we described, power is proportional to numbers of spikes which then depend on both neuron density and firing rate. So fewer neurons with higher firing rate would generate similar power to more neurons with lower firing rate. We’ve expanded the explanation of the model and added Figure S4 about the depth profile of firing rate. Text has also been adjusted pointing to the Figure S2, S3 about quantitively comparisons of variability.

      Line 348 states there is a precise link between properties and cortical layers, but the manuscript has not, up to this point, shown how that link was determined or quantified it.

      Through our generative model of power and the similarity between depth profile of firing rate and depth profile of neuron density (Figure S4), depth profile of power can be used to approximate depth profile of neuron density which is known to be closely correlated to cortical layering.

      Line 350. What is meant by "stochastic variability"?

      The text essentially says distances from electrode contact to nearby cell bodies were random, so closer cells have higher spike amplitudes and in turn result in higher power on a channel.

      The figures showing the two metrics, Pf and Cf, should be shown for the same data sets. The markings indicate that Fig 5 and Fig 6 show results from non-overlapping data sets. This does not build confidence about the results in the paper.

      Here we use typical profiles to demonstrate the characteristics of the power spectrum/coherence spectrum because of the variation across penetrations. We show later, in the guide section, all metrics for one penetration (another two cases in supplemental figures) and how to combine all metrics to derive layer delineations.

      Line 375 the statement is somewhat vague, "there are nevertheless sometimes cases where they can resolve uncertainties," can you please provide some quantitative support?

      We provided 3 examples in Figure 6, and more examples are shown in Figure 8, Figure S5, S6.

      Line 379. I believe the change you want to describe here is a change associated with a transition in the visual stimulus. It would be good to clarify this in the first several sentences here. Baseline can mean different things. I got the impression that your stimuli flip between states at a rate fast enough that signals do not really have time to return to a baseline.

      We rephrased the sentence to describe the metric more precisely. A pair of uniform colors flipping in 1.5 second intervals is usually long enough for spiking activities to decay to a saturated level.

      This section (379 - 398) continues a qualitative show-and-tell feel. There appears to be a lot of variability across the examples in Figure 7. How could you try to quantify this variability versus the variability in LFP? And, in this section overall, the text and figure legend don't really describe what the baseline is.

      Text adjustments are made to briefly describe the baseline window and point to the Method section where definitions are described in detail. We’ve added Figure S3 together with Figure S2 to address the variability across penetrations, stimuli, and metrics.

      Line 405 - 415. The discussion here does not consider that layers may not have well defined boundaries, the text gives the impression that there is some ultimate ground truth to which the metrics are being compared, but that may not be accurate.

      Except for a few layers/sublayers, such as L2, L3A, L3B, most layer boundaries of neocortex are well defined (Figure 1A) and histological staining of neurons/density and correlated changes in chemical content show very sharp transitions. The best of these staining methods is cytochrome oxidase, which shows sharp borders at the top and bottom of layer 4A, top and bottom of layer 4C, and the layer 5/6 border. There is also a sharp transition in neuronal cell body size and density at the top and bottom of layer 4Cb. The definition and delineation of all possible layers are constantly being refined, especially by accumulated knowledge of genetic markers of different cell types and connection patterns. In our study, we develop metrics to estimate well known anatomical and functional properties of different layers. We have also discussed layer boundaries that have been ambiguous to date and explained the reason and criteria to resolve them.

      Line 423. The text references Figure 1A in stating that relative thickness and position is crucial, but FIgure 1A does not provide that information and does not explain how it might be determined, or how much of a consensus there is. Also, the text does not consider that the electrode may go through the cortex at oblique angles, and not the same angle in each layer, and the relative thickness may not be a dependable reference.

      There are numerous studies that describe criteria to delineate cortical layers, the referenced article (Balaram & Kaas 2014) is used here as an example. We are not aware of any publication that has systematically compared the relative thickness of layers across the V1 surface of a given animal or across animals. Nevertheless, it is clear from the literature that there is considerable similarity across animals. Accordingly, we cannot know what the source of variability in overall cortical thickness in our samples is, but we do see considerable consistency in the relative thickness of the layers we infer from our measures. We illustrate the differences that we see across penetrations and consider likely causes, such as the extent to which the coverslip pressing down on the cortex might differentially compress the cortex at different locations within the chamber.

      The angle deviation of probe from surface will not change the relative thickness of layers, and the rigid linear probe is unlikely to bend in the cortex.

      Line 433. The term "Coherence" is used, clarify is this is you Cf from Figure 6. The text states, "marked decrease at the bottom of layer 6". Please clarify this, I do not see that in Figure 6.

      Text has been adjusted.

      In Figure 6, the locations of the lines between L1 and 2 do not seem to be consistent with respect to the subtle changes in light blue shading, across all three examples, yet the text on line 436 states that there is a clear transition.

      We feel that the language used accurately reflects what is shown in the figure. While the transition is not sharp, it is clear that there is a transition. This transition is not used to define this laminar border. We have edited the text to clarify that the L1/2 border is better defined based on the change in AP power which shows a sharp transition (Figure 7). 

      The text states that the boundary is also "always clear" from metrics... and sites Figure 5, but I do not see that this boundary is clear for all three examples in Figure 5.

      Text has been adjusted.

      Line 438. The text states that "it is not unusual for unit density to fall to zero below the L1/2 border (Figure 8E)", but surprisingly, the line in Figure 8 E does not even cover the indicated boundary between L1 and L2.

      At this point, the number of statements in the text that do not clearly and precisely correlate to the data in the figures is worrisome, and I think you could lose the confidence of readers at this point.

      We do not see any inconstancy between what is stated in our text and what is noted by the reviewer. The termination of the blue line corresponds to the location where no units are detected. This is the location where “unit density falls to zero”.  In this example, no units resolved through spike sorting until ~100mm beneath the L1/L2 boundary, which is exactly zero unity density (Figure 8E). That there are electrical signals in this region is clear from the AP power change (Figure 8C) which also shows the location of the L1/L2 border.

      Line 448. Text states that the 6A/B border is defined by a sharp boundary in AP power, but Figure 8A "AP power spectrum" does not show a sharp change at the A/B line. There is a peak in this metric in the middle to upper middle of 6A, but nothing so sharp to define a boundary between distinct layers, at least for penetration A2.

      Text has been adjusted.

      In Figure 8, the layer labels are not clear, whereas they are reasonably clear in the other figures.

      This is a technical problem regarding vector graphics that were not properly converted in PDF generation. We will upload each high-quality vector graphics when we finalize the version of record.

      The text emphasizes differences in L4B and L4C with respect to average power and coherence, but the transition seems a bit gradual from layer 3B to 4C in some examples in Figure 6. And in Figure 5, A3, there doesn't appear to be any particular transition along the line between 4B and 4C.

      In this guide section, we pointed out early that some metrics are good for some boundaries and variation exists between penetrations. We’ve expanded text emphasizing the importance of timing differences in DP/P for differentiating sublayers in L4. Lastly, in case of several unresolvable boundaries given all the metrics, the prior knowledge of relative thickness should be used.

      Line 466 provides prescriptions in absolute linear distances, but this is unwise given that cortex may be crossed at oblique angles by electrodes, particularly for parts of V1 that are not on the surface of the brain. Other parts of the text have emphasized relative measurements.

      Text has been changed using relative measurements.

      Line 507. The text says 9C and 4A are a good match, but the match does not look that good (4A has substantial dips at 0.5 and 0.75, and substantial peaks), and there is no quantification of fit. The error bars on 9C do not help show the variability across penetrations, they appear to be SEM, which shows that error bars get smaller as you average more data. It would seem more important to understand what is the variance in the density from one penetration to the next compared to the variance in density across layers.

      We have replaced “good match” with “roughly corresponds”. We note that we do not use unit density as a metric for identification of laminar borders and instead show that the expected locations of layers with higher neuronal density correspond to the locations where there are similar changes in unit density. It should be noted that Figure 9C is an average across many penetrations so should not be expected to show transitions that are as sharp in individual penetrations. Because of the figure permission issue, we have removed Figure 4A, and changed the text accordingly.

      Figure 9C-F show a lot of variability in the individual curves (dim gray lines) compared to the overall average. Does this show that these metrics are not reliable indicators at the level of single penetration, but show some trends across larger averages?

      In the beginning of the guide, we emphasized that all metrics should be combined for individual penetration, because some metrics are only reliable for delineating certain layer boundaries and the quality of data for the various measures varies between penetrations. The penetration average serves the same purpose explained in the previous question as an indicator that our layer delineation was not far off.

      The discussion mentions improvements in layer identification made here. Did this work check the assignments for these penetration against assignments made based on some form of ground truth? Previous methods would advance electrodes steadily, and make lesions, and carry out histology. Is there any way to tell how this method would compare to that?

      Even electrolytic lesions do not necessarily reveal ground truth and can be quite misleading. And their resolution is limited by lesion size. Lesions are typically variable in size, asymmetric and have variable shape and position relative to the location of the electrode tip, likely affected by the quality and location of electrical grounding and variations in current flow due to locations of blood vessels. A review of the published literature with electrode lesions shows that electrophysiological transitions are likely a far more accurate indicator of recording locations than post-mortem histology from electrolytic lesions. It is extremely rare for the locations of lesions to be precisely aligned to expected laminar transitions. See for example Chatterjee et al (Nature 2004). Also see several manuscripts from the Shapley lab. The lone rare exception of which we are aware is Blasdel and Fitzpatrick1984 in which consistently small and round lesions were produced and even these would be too large (~100 microns) to accurately identify layers if it were not for the fact that the electrode penetrations were very long and tangential to the cortical layers. 

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      - The authors say (lines 360-362) that "Assuming spikes of a neuron spread to at least two adjacent recording channels, then the coherence between the two channels would be directly proportional to number of spikes, independent of spike amplitude." Has this been demonstrated? Very large amplitude spikes should show up on more channels than small amplitude spikes. Do waveform amplitudes and unit densities from the spike waveform analyses show consistent relationships to the power and/or coherence distributions over depth across penetrations?

      This part of the manuscript is providing a theoretical rational for what might be expected to affect the measures that we have derived. That is why we begin by stating that we are making an assumption. The answers to the reviewer’s questions are not known and have not been demonstrated. By beginning with this theoretical preface, we can point to cases where the data match these expectations as well as other cases where the data differ from the theoretical expectations.

      Coherence, by definition, is a normalized metric that is insensitive to amplitude. Spike amplitude mainly depends on how close the signal source is to electrode, and spike spread mainly depends on cell body size and shape given the same distance to electrode. Therefore, a very large spike amplitude could stem from a very close small cell to electrode, but would result in a small spike spread, especially axonal spikes (Figure 4B, red spike). Spike amplitudes on average are higher in L4C which matches the expectation that higher cell density would result, on average, closer cell body to electrode (Figure S4A). Nonetheless, the high-density small cell bodies in L4C result in a small spike spread (Figure 9D).

      - I suggest clarifying what is defined as the baseline window for the ΔP/P measure - is it the entire 10-150 ms response window used for the power spectrum analysis?

      Text adjustments are made in the Methods where the time windows are defined at the beginning of the CSD section. Only temporal change metrics (ΔCSD and ΔP/P) use the baseline window ([-40, 10]ms). The other two spectrum metrics (Power and Coherence) use the response window ([10, 150]ms).

      - Firing rate differs by cell type and, on average, differs by layer in V1. Many layer 2/3 neurons, for example, have low maximum firing rates when driven with optimized achromatic grating stimuli. To the extent that the generative models explaining the sources of power and coherence signals rely on the assumption that firing rates are matched across cortical depth, these models may be inaccurate. This assumption is declared only subtly, and late in the paper, but it is relevant to earlier claims.

      Text adjustments are made to explicitly describe the possibility that uneven depth profile of firing rate could counteract the depth profile of neuron density, resulting distorted or even a flat depth profile of power/coherence that deviates far from the depth profile of neuron density. In a newly added Figure S4, we first show the average firing rate profile during a set of stimuli (uniform color, static/drifting, achromatic/chromatic gratings), then specifically the PSTHs of the same stimuli shown in this study. It can be seen that layers receiving direct LGN inputs tend to fire at a higher rate (L4C, L6A). Firing rates in the PSTHs either roughly match across layers or are much higher in the densely packed layers. Therefore, the depth profile of firing rate contributes to rather than counteracting that of neuron density, enhancing the utility of the power/coherence profile for identification of correct layer boundaries.

      - Given the acute preparation used for recordings, I wonder whether tissue is available for histological evaluation. Although the layers identified are generally appropriate in relative size, it would be particularly compelling if the authors could demonstrate that the fraction of the cortical thickness occupied by each layer corresponded to the proportion occupied by that layer along the probe trajectory in histological sections. This would lend strength to the claim that these analyses can be used to identify layers in the absence of histology. Furthermore, variations in apparent cortical thickness could arise from different degrees of deviation from surface normal approach angles, which might be apparent by evaluation of histological material. I would add that variation in thickness on the scale shown in Fig. S4 is more likely to have an explanation of this kind.

      To serve other purposes unrelated to this study (identification of CO blobs), we cut the postmortem tissue in horizontal slices, so the histological comparison suggested cannot be made. The cortical thickness measured in this study had been affected not only by the angle deviation from the surface normal but also the swelling and compression of cortex. Nevertheless, evaluating the absolute thickness of cortex is not the main purpose of this study.

      Text and figure suggestions:

      - Fig 1A has been modified from Balaram & Kaas (2014) to revert to the Brodmann nomenclature scheme they argue against using in that paper; I wonder if they would object to this modification without explanation. Related, in the main text the authors initially refer to layers using Brodmann's labels with a secondary scheme (Hassler's) in parentheses and later drop the parenthetical labels; these conventions are not described or explained. Readers less familiar with the multiple nomenclature schemes for monkey V1 layers might be confused by the multiple labels without context, and could benefit from a brief description of the convention the authors have adopted.

      Throughout our article, we only used Brodmann’s naming convention because it has historically been adopted for old world monkey which we use in our study, whereas Hassler’s naming convention is more commonly used for new world monkey. Different naming conventions do not change our result, and it is out of scope for our study to discuss which nomenclature is more appropriate.

      - References to "dominate eye" throughout the text and figure legends should be replaced with "dominant eye."

      It has been changed throughout the article.

      - It is a bit odd to duplicate the same example in Fig. 2C and 2E. Perhaps a unique example would be a better use of the space.

      Here we first demonstrate the filtering effect, then compare profiles across different penetrations. The same example bridges the transition allowing side-by-side comparison.

      - The legend for Fig. 3 might be clearer if it simply listed the stimulus transitions for each column left to right, i.e. "black to white (non-dominant eye), white to black (non-dominant eye), black to white (dominant eye), ..."

      We feel that the icons are helpful. Here we want to show the stimulus colors directly to readers.

      - The misalignment between Fig. 4A vs. 4B-F, combined with the very small font size of the layer labels in Fig. 4B-F, make the visual comparison difficult. In Figs. 7 and 8, layer labels (and most labels in general) are much too small and/or low resolution to read easily. Overall, I would recommend increasing font size of labels in figures throughout the paper.

      The reused figure in Figure 4A is removed due to permission issue. Font sizes are adjusted.

      - Line 591 "using of high-density probes" should be "using high-density probes"

      Text has been changed accordingly

  11. Oct 2024
    1. even though its force is more advanced, better equipped, and far more numerous than the opposing Ukrainian Air Force.

      This is a remarkable thing about the war. Ukraine with only 72 fighters holds off 809 fighters. This is a simple matter of numbers. At a ratio of 11 Russian fighters to every 1 Ukrainian fighter, even higher in 2022, Russia has never been able to take over the Ukrainian air space beyond the occupied region.

      These numbers show that Ukraine MUST have far far better pilots than Russia. It would be impossible for one Mig-29 to fight off 11 Russian fighter jets many of them far more advanced than the Mig-29.

      Early in 2022 they just had the Stinger shoulder mounted ground to air missiles. Later on they got S-300 systems from Slovakia which forced the Russians to fly close to the ground.

      This is not because of one brave and extraordinary "Ghost of Kyiv". People make up explanations for Ukraine being able to hold back the vastly superior Russian air force and this was a popular fiction to explain it - such stories are common in war same happened in WW2. But it's not the real reason.

      It is because the Ukrainian air force have had training with NATO and have focused on changing how they do things since 2014 and are a modern airforce that uses modern ideas. It still is somewhat stuck in Soviet ideas but it is far more modern than Russia

      It is not so much that the Ukrainians are superior though they have also done a lot of innovation on top of what NATO taught them making stuff up for the war such as experience in how to fly very close to the ground and they way they distracted the Russian air defences with a simple drone to sink the Moskva with a Neptune.

      But the reason Ukraine could hold off Russia is because the Russians are so very weak in the air.

      It is because of endemic issues in the Russian airforce. Their pilots are not permitted to take initiative much but have to obey the orders of the general.

      If the general says "Fly from here to there and bomb that target" that is what they have to do.

      They mostly do point to point missions with a single fighter jet on a mission as in WW2.

      They are dependent on mobile air commands in the air, large expensive aircraft that fly far behind the front line because they can be shot down easily.

      The generals and the air command don't have a good idea of the situation.

      But most of all Russia clearly has not trained in combined operations where large groups of pilots work together to achieve an objective. All they can do is to do these point to point missions under the command of a general.

      Russian fighter pilots work on their own. They are not used to working with other pilots just to working with generals that tell them what to do.

      The details would be more complex but you can understand the basics with simple maths.

      100 fighter jets working together could surely easily overpower 10 Mig29s working together.

      But even 100 fighter jets coming one at a time on separate missions can surely be held back by 10 Mig29s working together using modern methods indeed they wouldn't even try as it would be a massacre with a 10 to 1 advantage for Ukraine.

      This is not theoretical. It happened all through 2022 before Ukraine got its advanced air defences.

      So that is the reason that experts give. This was a huge surprise to most Western analysts, they had no idea how very poor the training was for Russian pilots and given the huge ratio of numbers expected Russia to take over the Ukrainian air space in the first few days. It never happened.

      It is partly also that Putin didn't prioritize it.

      The experts expected that if Russia invaded, it would first spend a couple of days destroying the Ukrainian air force before any tanks enter Ukraine and they would have had far fewer aircraft left if he'd done that. Instead Putin just did it for a few hours which warned the Ukrainians. A Mig29 can fly off a short section of highway - so the pilots got into their remaining planes and dispersed all over Ukraine and then Ukraine rapidly built lots of secret runways hidden in woods etc and Russia lost that opportunity to destroy them.

      But it is also partly because the Russian airforce just don't have the training. Even with an 11 to 1 ratio and a few dozen fighter jets defending Ukraine, they should have been able to take over the Ukrainian air space very quickly. Especially in the first few weeks when Ukraine didn't even have the S-300 for air defences and the Russian pilots could fly too high to be hit by Stingers.

      But they didn't and they haven't been able to learn since then and still do these point to point missions.

      Things like this can't be fixed quickly because of the many years of training needed for a top quality pilot. After the war is over perhaps Russia can change. But changing it in the middle of an active war would be confusing with the pilots not knowing what to do as it would go against all their training for many years.

      Professor Phillips P. OBrien talks about this issue here

      https://web.archive.org/web/20220509173612/https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/05/russian-military-air-force-failure-Ukraine/629803/

      The article was later updated and the title changed and is now behind a paywall but the original version wasn't paywalled

      SUMMARY:

      Summary This article by Phillips Payson O’Brien and Edward Stringer, writing for The Atlantic, makes the following points:

      • Airpower should have been one of Russia’s greatest advantages over Ukraine, with almost 4,000 combat aircraft and extensive experience.
      • More than two months into the war, Russia’s air force is still fighting for control of the skies.
      • The failure of the Russian air force is the most important, but least discussed, story of the conflict so far.
      • The recent modernization of the Russian air force was mostly for show.
      • Money was wasted and the Russian air force continues to suffer from flawed logistics and lack of regular training.

      https://runway.airforce.gov.au/resources/link-article/overlooked-reason-russia-s-invasion-floundering

      Upated article behind a paywall which as far as I know is just the title changed. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/05/russian-military-air-force-failure-Ukraine/629803/

      As to why Putin didn't want to spend even 2 days destroying the airforce this is a guess but it may well be because he was persuaded by false information from his spies that he would be able to take over the Ukrainian government in a couple of days and didn't bother to do a proper military operation.

      He didn't even make sure the tanks had enough fuel to get from Belarus to Kyiv on the ground which is why the tanks kept running out of fuel in the first week or two.

      From leaked intelligence information since then, it was all just a distraction for the main operation which was to develop an air bridge to Hostomol airport, send in an elite group of tanks, soldiers etc and rapidly advance into Kyiv before the Ukrainians were able to defend themselves. Which of course failed.

      So perhaps he didn't want to spend 2 days destroying the planes because by 2 days of bombing he'd have lost the element of surprise which was what he was counting on for the Hostomel air bridge. Even though the air bridge would have been far easier to establish after those 2 days.

      The Ukrainians did have training from 2014 to 2022 this is not in any way secret it is public and there are lots of stories about it. The Ukrainians also did joint training with NATO and as recently as 2021 F-16 fighter jets landed in Ukraine as part of those exercises. But NATO did not give them any offensive equipment they just trained them. This was NOT and very CLEARLY NOT with the intent to try to attack Rsusia in any way just to train them to defend themselves which became a priority after Russia took ove rCrimea.

      With the pilots the results stand for themselves. If the Russian piliots were as good as the Ukrainian ones then 72 Ukrainian fighter jets would have no chance against 814 Russians. It is then a question of why that is.

      I didn't say it was because of corruption. Though that may be a factor. It is mainly that the Russians still use WW2 tactics where each fighter pilot is given its own separate mission and the pilots are not able to work wit each other on the field.

      At least that is what Western analysts that I follow say. There may be other reasons but what is absolutely certain is that the Ukrainians are far better pilots than the Russians. As to why that is then you can work on your own theories of course.

      According to Global Fire power, Ukraine has 72 fighter jets as of 2024 and Russia has 809, So it has 10 times as many. When you look at total aircraft it's an even bigger ratio,

      Ukraine will be getting 85 F-16s eventually promised by Netherlands, Denmark and Norway. Russia will still have many more fighter jets than Ukraine. Also the Ukrainians have only had a year to learn how to fly their jets and it takes a lot longer to really master them though they'd be able to fly them like a Mig-29 with more stealth quite quickly.

      Biden gave countries permission to send them to Ukraine in August 2023. So it is not new, all that's new is that they may arrive in Ukraine soon. Other countries gave Ukraine the Mig-29 fighter jets starting in March 2023 and Ukraine had about 50 fighter jets since soon after the war started. It had probably 98 when the war started. Russia destroyed about half of those in the first few days but it only did a short half-hearted attempt at destroying them so Ukraine was able to save half of them.

      Ever since then it's been flying them off remoter air fields hidden away in forests and from roads

      So Russia has 10 military aircraft for every 1 Ukrainian aircraft. Also the Ukrainian ones are ancient Soviet era ones mainly a legacy from when Ukraine split off from the Soviet Union. Russia has far more modern aircraft that Ukraine doesn't have which can fire missiles from the air and can spot Mig29s from far too far away for a Mig29 to see them and can fire air to air missiles to hit the Mig 29 with the Mig 29 not able to do anything back except hide by flying too low for the radar to spot.

      Western analysts expected Russia to take over Ukraine's air space quickly with waves of fighter jets. But it turned out that Russian pilots have never learnt how to do that, all they know is how to fly to a point set in advance by a commander and drop a bomb there and quickly fly back again. Russia is simply unable to win battles in the air even with an advantage of 10 to 1. The only explanation that makes sense is that the Russian pilots are simply not trained to do this. By NATO standards they are very badly trained and that can't be changed in the middle of a war, not easily. They have made some adaptations in their ability to drop bombs, e.g. to fly low and then throw the glide bombs into the air at the last minute and quickly turn back. But the Russian commanders are not prepared to give the pilots the initiative to make decisions by themselves in a quickly changing battle in the air so it is partly because the Russian approach is very hierarchical with the pilots not trained to be able to take any initiative themselves just do what the commanders tell them to do. They also can't work effectively with ground forces, often making mistakes and not trained in combined operations.

      Ukraine quickly got the ability to stop them dropping bombs easily on most of Ukraine and they kept control of the air space over most of Ukraine through to spring 2023 when NATO countries started giving them advanced air defences to protect themselves.

      So - NATO countries are going to give Ukraine a few dozen F-16 fighter jets. These are ancient technology for NATO as they are destined for scrap otherwise. NATO has far too many F-16s because they are replacing them by F-35s which are vastly superior to anything Russia has. But the F-16s are equivalent to the most modern Russian fighter jets.

      Russia still has many more modern fighter jets than the F-16s NATO is giving to Ukraine. It will still have a 5 to 1 ratio of fighter jets and with many modern fighter jets.

      So this donation would be of very little use if Russia was able to fight in the air like NATO. That's partly why NATO countries think this will hardly make any difference in the war.

      But Ukraine thinks it will make a big difference and they are the ones who have experience fighting Russian pilots in the air. If it does make a big difference this will be another confirmation that the Russian pilots are just not very well trained.

      So we'll see who was right. They are not magic weapons and to start with the Ukrainians will be very inexperienced at using therm in combat so they won't make a big difference on day 1. However by the end of the war the Ukrainians will be the only country in the world with experience fighting Russian fighter jets with F-16s.

      To start with the F-16s will fly far from the front line just shooting down drones and cruise missiles which they are able to do with air to air missiles. That will help protect the cities. The F-16s in turn would be protected by the Patriot air defences and shoot down missiles that get through.

      Later they may be able to fly closer to the front line and shoot down the bombers that fire glide bombs at Ukraine.

      Then as they get more experienced they will be able to fly along the front line and support any Ukrainian counteroffensives and a counteroffensive supported by their Mig29s along with a dozen or so F-16s will be much safer than one that has to try to fight with Russian military jets flying overhead until they can set up their air defences.

      So - the F-16s may make a big difference. But nothing like if NATO was to give them F-35s.

      And Putin is not going to attack NATO that makes no sense. If he is so bothered by F-16s that he worries this will mean he loses the war against Ukraine quickly it makes no sense to then attack NATO with its F-35s that have a radar cross section like a supersonic baked potato in size, and are effectively invisible to its radar and with its tomahawk cruise missiles and other missiles with a range of 2,400 km instead of the ATACMS with similar payload and a range of 300 km etc etc.

      An F-35 test pilot said that with a few F-35s Ukraine could quickly take over all the occupied air space and shoot out the radar systems from the air before Russia could see them and get total air control over the occupied regions of Ukraine quickly.

      But NATO is very very cautious. It's aim is to give Ukraine enough by way of equipment so that it can win, but not to give it enough capability so that it can win dramatically by e.g. sinking the entire Black Sea fleet in a few hours or taking over the air space over occupied Ukraine in a few hours like a NATO country could do. Ukraine isn't asking for that capability either.

      So that is not going to happen. But Ukraine CAN do major counteroffensives by blocking off the supply routes because Russia's war depends on a very few vulnerable supply routes such as the Azov coast road to supply the war. As we saw with Kherson city in the fall of 2022, if Ukraine can cut off the supply route - in that case the Antonovsky bridge across the Dnipro river - then Russian soldiers at the front line run out of fuel, and shells and missiles and their air defences run out of air interceptors. With no way to supply them then they have to retreat.

      So - Ukraine has opportunities to do that by cutting through the Azov sea coast road and the bridges from Crimea to Kherson oblast and the Kerch bridge. That would liberate half of the current occupied Ukraine and put Crimea at risk. It would then be very hard for Russia to supply Crimea once Ukraine has control of Kherson oblast and part of Zaporizhzhia oblast and perhaps has regained Mariupol.

      It is not impossible Ukraine gets that far even this year, but most likely in 2025. Then once that happens Putin is likely to be more in a mood for treaty negotiations.

      BLOG: Why F-16s will make such a difference to Ukraine - can fly from Ukraine - ancient technology by NATO standards - roughly equal in capability to Russia’s best fighter jets which currently dominate the air space over front lines https://debunkingdoomsday.quora.com/Why-F-16s-will-make-such-a-difference-to-Ukraine-can-fly-from-Ukraine-ancient-technology-by-NATO-standards-roughly

    1. Stores and homes were looted and set on fire. When Tulsa firefighters arrived, they were turned away by white vigilantes. A number of eyewitness accounts described private aircraft being used to shoot into black crowds and drop turpentine firebombs onto black-owned buildings, suggesting the well-organized attack might have been planned in advance.

      The racism and hate were so extreme that many deaths and many lives lost. The suggestion that this was an organized attack just go to show how much hate they had.

    2. A number of eyewitness accounts described private aircraft being used to shoot into black crowds and drop turpentine firebombs onto black-owned buildings, suggesting the well-organized attack might have been planned in advance.

      I find this very weird. To have access to private aircraft at the time is unheard of unless you were part of the very top of the economic classes. On top of that they had turpentine fire bombs? Not only did this have to planned in advance, people would have to spend tons and tons of money just for the set up to this plan, so to me it feels like either super rich people or tons of people grouped money together just for this.

  12. Sep 2024
    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife Assessment 

      This study is a detailed investigation of how chromatin structure influences replication origin function in yeast ribosomal DNA, with focus on the role of the histone deacetylase Sir2 and the chromatin remodeler Fun30. Convincing evidence shows that Sir2 does not affect origin licensing but rather affects local transcription and nucleosome positioning which correlates with increased origin firing. However, the evidence remains incomplete as the methods employed do not rigorously establish a key aspect of the mechanism, fully address some alternative models, or sufficiently relate to prior results. Overall, this is a valuable advance for the field that could be improved to establish a more robust paradigm. 

      We have added extensive new results to the manuscript that, we believe, address all three criticisms above, namely that the methods employed do not (1) rigorously establish a key aspect of the mechanism; (2) fully address some alternative models; or (3) sufficiently relate to prior results.

      Public Reviews: 

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      This paper presents a mechanistic study of rDNA origin regulation in yeast by SIR2. Each of the ~180 tandemly repeated rDNA gene copies contains a potential replication origin. Earlyefficient initiation of these origins is suppressed by Sir2, reducing competition with origins distributed throughout the genome for rate-limiting initiation factors. Previous studies by these authors showed that SIR2 deletion advances replication timing of rDNA origins by a complex mechanism of transcriptional de-repression of a local PolII promoter causing licensed origin proteins (MCMcomplexes) to re-localize (slide along the DNA) to a different (and altered) chromatin environment. In this study, they identify a chromatin remodeler, FUN30, that suppresses the sir2∆ effect, and remarkably, results in a contraction of the rDNA to about onequarter it's normal length/number of repeats, implicating replication defects of the rDNA. Through examination of replication timing, MCM occupancy and nucleosome occupancy on the chromatin in sir2, fun30, and double mutants, they propose a model where nucleosome position relative to the licensed origin (MCM complexes) intrinsically determines origin timing/efficiency. While their interpretations of the data are largely reasonable and can be interpreted to support their model, a key weakness is the connection between Mcm ChEC signal disappearance and origin firing.  

      Criticism: The reviewer expressed concern about the connection between Mcm ChEC signal disappearance and origin firing.

      To further support our claim that the disappearance of the MCM signal in our ChEC datasets reflects origin firing, we now present additional data using the well-established method of MCM Chromatin IP (ChIP).

      (1) New Supporting Evidence:  ChIP at genome-wide origins. In Figure 5 figure supplement 2, we demonstrate that the Mcm2 ChIP signal in cells released into hydroxyurea (HU) is significantly reduced at early origins compared to late origins, which mirrors the pattern observed with the MCM2 ChEC signal. This reduction in the ChIP signal at early origins supports the interpretation that the MCM signal disappearance is associated with origin firing.

      (2) New supporting based evidence:  ChIP at rDNA Origins. Our ChIP analysis also shows that the disappearance of the MCM signal at rDNA origins in sir2Δ cells released into HU is accompanied by signal accumulation at the replication fork barrier (RFB), indicative of stalled replication forks at this location (Figure 5 figure supplement 3). This pattern is consistent with the initiation of replication at these origins and fork stalling at the RFB.

      (3) New supporting evidence:  2D gels with quantification. Furthermore, additional 2D gel electrophoresis results provide ample independent evidence of rDNA origin firing in HU in sir2Δ mutants and suppression of origin firing in sir2 fun30 cells. These new data include 1) quantification of 2D gels in Figure 4D and 2) new 2D gels presented in Figure 4C as described below in greater detail. Collectively, these results demonstrate that rDNA origins fire prematurely in HU in sir2 cells and that firing is suppressed by FUN30 deletion. These additional data reinforce our model and support the association between MCM signal disappearance and replication initiation.

      While the cyclical chromatin association-dissociation of MCM proteins with potential origin sequences may be generally interpreted as licensing followed by firing, dissociation may also result from passive replication and as shown here, displacement by transcription and/or chromatin remodeling.

      The reviewer raised a concern that the cyclical chromatin association-dissociation of MCM proteins could be interpreted as licensing followed by firing, but might also result from passive replication or displacement by transcription and chromatin remodeling.

      Addressing Alternative Explanations:

      (1) Selective Disappearance of MCM Complexes: While transcription and passive replication can indeed cause the MCM-ChEC signal to disappear, these processes cannot selectively cause the disappearance of the displaced MCM complex without also affecting the non-displaced MCM complex. Specifically, RNA polymerase transcribing C-pro would first need to dislodge the normally positioned MCM complex before reaching the displaced complex, which is not observed in our data.

      (2) Role of FUN30 Deletion:  FUN30 deletion results in increased C-pro transcription and reduced disappearance of the displaced MCM complex. This observation supports our model, as transcription alone would not selectively affect the displaced MCM complex while leaving the normally positioned MCM complex unaffected.

      (3) Licensing Restrictions: It is crucial to note that continuous replenishment of displaced MCMs with newly loaded MCMs is not possible in our experimental conditions, as the cells are in S phase and licensing is restricted to G1. This temporal restriction further supports our interpretation that the disappearance of the MCM signal reflects origin firing rather than alternative processes.

      In summary, while alternative explanations such as transcription and passive replication could potentially account for MCM signal disappearance, our data indicate that these processes cannot selectively affect the displaced MCM complex without impacting the non-displaced complex. The selective disappearance observed in our experiments, along with the effects of FUN30 deletion and the temporal constraints on MCM loading, strongly support our interpretation that the disappearance of the MCM signal reflects origin firing.

      Moreover, linking its disappearance from chromatin in the ChEC method with such precise resolution needs to be validated against an independent method to determine the initiation site(s). Differences in rDNA copy number and relative transcription levels also are not directly accounted for, obscuring a clearer interpretation of the results. 

      The reviewer raised concerns about the need to validate the disappearance of MCM from chromatin observed using the ChEC method against an independent method to determine initiation sites. Additionally, they pointed out that differences in rDNA copy number and relative transcription levels are not directly accounted for, which may obscure the interpretation of the results.

      (1) Reduced rDNA Copy Number promotes Early Replication: Copy number reduction of the magnitude caused by deletion of both SIR2 and FUN30 is not expected to suppress early rDNA replication in sir2, but rather to exacerbate it. Specifically, deletion of SIR2 and FUN30 causes the rDNA to shrink to approximately 35 copies. Kwan et al., 2023 (PMID: 36842087) have shown that a reduction in rDNA copy number to 35 copies results in a dramatic acceleration of rDNA replication in a SIR2+ strain. Therefore, the effect of rDNA size on replication timing reinforces our conclusion that deletion of FUN30 suppresses rDNA replication.

      (2) New 2D Gels in sir2 and sir2 fun30 strains with equal number of rDNA repeats: To directly address the concern regarding differences in the number of rDNA repeats, we have included new 2D gel analyses in the revised manuscript. By using a fob1

      background, we were able to equalize the repeat number between the sir2 and sir2 fun30 strains (Figure 4E). The 2D gels conclusively show that the suppression of rDNA origin firing upon FUN30 deletion is independent of both rDNA size and FOB1.

      Nevertheless, this paper makes a valuable advance with the finding of Fun30 involvement, which substantially reduces rDNA repeat number in sir2∆ background. The model they develop is compelling and I am inclined to agree, but I think the evidence on this specific point is purely correlative and a better method is needed to address the initiation site question. The authors deserve credit for their efforts to elucidate our obscure understanding of the intricacies of chromatin regulation. At a minimum, I suggest their conclusions on these points of concern should be softened and caveats discussed. Statistical analysis is lacking for some claims. 

      Strengths are the identification of FUN30 as suppressor, examination of specific mutants of FUN30 to distinguish likely functional involvement. Use of multiple methods to analyze replication and protein occupancies on chromatin. Development of a coherent model. 

      Weaknesses are failure to address copy number as a variable; insufficient validation of ChEC method relationship to exact initiation locus; lack of statistical analysis in some cases. 

      With regard to "insufficient validation of ChEC method relationship to exact initiation locus":  The two potential initiation sites that one would monitor (non-displaced and displaced) are separated by less than 150 base pairs, and other techniques simply do not have the resolution necessary to distinguish such differences. Indeed, our new ChIP results presented in Figure 5 figure supplement 3 clearly demonstrate that while the resolution of ChIP is adequate to detect the reduction of MCM signal at the replication initiation site and its relocation to the RFB ( ~2 kb away), it lacks the resolution required to differentiate closely spaced MCM complexes.

      Furthermore, as we suggest in the manuscript, our results are consistent with a model in which it is only the displaced MCM complex that is activated, whether in sir2 or WT.  If no genotypedependent difference in initiation sites is even expected, it would be hard to interpret even the most precise replication-based assays.  

      We appreciate the reviewer pointing out that some statistical analyses were lacking: we have added statistical analysis for 2D gels (Figures 4D and 4E),  EdU incorporation experiments in Figure 4F and disappearance of MCM ChEC and ChIP signal upon release of cells into HU (Figure 5 supplement 1 and Supplement 2).  

      Additional background and discussion for public review: 

      This paper broadly addresses the mechanism(s) that regulate replication origin firing in different chromatin contexts. The rDNA origin is present in each of ~180 tandem repeats of the rDNA sequence, representing a high potential origin density per length of DNA (9.1kb repeat unit). However, the average origin efficiency of rDNA origins is relatively low (~20% in wild-type cells), which reduces the replication load on the overall genome by reducing competition with origins throughout the genome for limiting replication initiation factors. Deletion of histone deacetylase SIR2, which silences PolII transcription within the rDNA, results in increased early activation or the rDNA origins (and reduced rate of overall genome replication). Previous work by the authors showed that MCM complexes loaded onto the rDNA origins (origin licensing) were laterally displaced (sliding) along the rDNA, away from a well-positioned nucleosome on one side. The authors' major hypothesis throughout this work is that the new MCM location(s) are intrinsically more efficient configurations for origin firing. The authors identify a chromatin remodeling enzyme, FUN30, whose deletion appears to suppress the earlier activation of rDNA origins in sir2∆ cells. Indeed, it appears that the reduction of rDNA origin activity in sir2∆ fun30∆ cells is severe enough to results in a substantial reduction in the rDNA array repeat length (number of repeats); the reduced rDNA length presumably facilitates it's more stable replication and maintenance. 

      Analysis of replication by 2D gels is marginally convincing, using 2D gels for this purpose is very challenging and tricky to quantify. 

      We address this criticism by carefuly quantifying 2 D gel results using single rARS signal for normalizing bubble arc as discussed below.

      The more quantitative analysis by EdU incorporation is more convincing of the suppression of the earlier replication caused by SIR2 deletion. 

      We have also added quantification of EdU results to strengthen our arguments.  

      To address the mechanism of suppression, they analyze MCM positioning using ChEC, which in G1 cells shows partial displacement of MCM from normal position A to positions B and C in sir2∆ cells and similar but more complete displacement away from A to positions B and C in sir2fun30 cells. During S-phase in the presence of hydroxyurea, which slows replication progression considerably (and blocks later origin firing) MCM signals redistribute, which is interpreted to represent origin firing and bidirectional movement of MCMs (only one direction is shown), some of which accumulate near the replication fork barrier, consistent with their interpretation. They observe that MCMs displaced (in G1) to sites B or C in sir2∆ cells, disappear more rapidly during S-phase, whereas the similar dynamic is not observed in sir2∆fun30∆. This is the main basis for their conclusion that the B and C sites are more permissive than A. While this may be the simplest interpretation, there are limitations with this assay that undermine a rigorous conclusion (additional points below). The main problem is that we know the MCM complexes are mobile so disappearance may reflect displacement by other means including transcription which is high is the sir2∆ background. Indeed, the double mutant has greater level of transcription per repeat unit which might explain more displaced from A in G1. Thus, displacement might not always represent origin firing. Because the sir2 background profoundly changes transcription, and the double mutant has a much smaller array length associated with higher transcription, how can we rule out greater accessibility at site A, for example in sir2∆, leading to more firing, which is suppressed in sir2 fun30 due to greater MCM displacement away from A? 

      I think the critical missing data to solidly support their conclusions is a definitive determination of the site(s) of initiation using a more direct method, such as strand specific sequencing of EdU or nascent strand analysis. More direct comparisons of the strains with lower copy number to rule out this facet. As discussed in detail below, copy number reduction is known to suppress at least part of the sir2∆ effect so this looms over the interpretations. I think they are probably correct in their overall model based on the simplest interpretation of the data but I think it remains to be rigorously established. I think they should soften their conclusions in this respect. 

      Please see discussion below about these issues.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      In this manuscript, the authors follow up on their previous work showing that in the absence of the Sir2 deacetylase the MCM replicative helicase at the rDNA spacer region is repositioned to a region of low nucleosome occupancy. Here they show that the repositioned displaced MCMs have increased firing propensity relative to non-displaced MCMs. In addition, they show that activation of the repositioned MCMs and low nucleosome occupancy in the adjacent region depend on the chromatin remodeling activity of Fun30. 

      Strengths: 

      The paper provides new information on the role of a conserved chromatin remodeling protein in the regulation of origin firing and in addition provides evidence that not all loaded MCMs fire and that origin firing is regulated at a step downstream of MCM loading. 

      Weaknesses: 

      The relationship between the author's results and prior work on the role of Sir2 (and Fob1) in regulation of rDNA recombination and copy number maintenance is not explored, making it difficult to place the results in a broader context. Sir2 has previously been shown to be recruited by Fob1, which is also required for DSB formation and recombination-mediated changes in rDNA copy number. Are the changes that the authors observe specifically in fun30 sir2 cells related to this pathway? Is Fob1 required for the reduced rDNA copy number in fun30 sir2 double mutant cells? 

      We have conducted additional studies in the fob1 background to address how FOB1 and the replication fork barrier (RFB) influence the kinetics of rDNA size reduction upon FUN30 deletion (Figure 2 - figure supplement 2), rDNA replication timing (Figure 2 - figure supplement 3), and rDNA origin firing using 2D gels (Figure 4C).

      Strains lacking SIR2 exhibit unstable rDNA size, and FOB1 deletion stabilizes rDNA size in a sir2 background (and otherwise). Similarly, we found that FOB1 deletion influences the kinetics of rDNA size reduction in sir2 fun30 cells. Specifically, we were able to generate a fob1 sir2 fun30 strain with more than 150 copies. Nonetheless, and consistent with our model, this strain still exhibited delayed rDNA replication timing (Figure 2 - figure supplement 3), and its rDNA still shrank upon continuous culture (Figure 2 figure supplement 2). These results demonstrate that, although FOB1 affects the kinetics of rDNA size reduction in sir2 fun30 strains, the reduced rDNA array size or delayed replication timing upon FUN30 deletion size does not depend on FOB1.

      The use of the fob1 background allowed us to compare the activation of rDNA origins in sir2 and sir2 fun30 strains with equally short rDNA sizes. 2D gels demonstrate robust and reproducible suppression of rDNA origin activity upon deletion of FUN30 in sir2 fob1 strains with 35 rDNA copies (Figure 4C). These results indicate that the main effect we are interested in—FUN30-induced reduction in origin firing—is independent of both FOB1 and rDNA size.

      Our additional studies conclusively show that the FUN30-induced reduction in rDNA origin firing is independent of both FOB1 and rDNA size. These findings provide important insights into the mechanisms regulating rDNA copy number maintenance, placing our results within the broader context of existing knowledge on Sir2 and Fob1 functions.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      Heterochromatin is characterized by low transcription activity and late replication timing, both dependent on the NAD-dependent protein deacetylase Sir2, the founding member of the sirtuins. This manuscript addresses the mechanism by which Sir2 delays replication timing at the rDNA in budding yeast. Previous work from the same laboratory (Foss et al. PLoS Genetics 15, e1008138) showed that Sir2 represses transcription-dependent displacement of the Mcm helicase in the rDNA. In this manuscript, the authors show convincingly that the repositioned Mcms fire earlier and that this early firing partly depends on the ATPase activity of the nucleosome remodeler Fun30. Using read-depth analysis of sorted G1/S cells, fun30 was the only chromatin remodeler mutant that somewhat delayed replication timing in sir2 mutants, while nhp10, chd1, isw1, htl1, swr1, isw2, and irc3 had not effect. The conclusion was corroborated with orthogonal assays including two-dimensional gel electrophoresis and analysis of EdU incorporation at early origins. Using an insightful analysis with an Mcm-MNase fusion (Mcm-ChEC), the authors show that the repositioned Mcms in sir2 mutants fire earlier than the Mcm at the normal position in wild type. This early firing at the repositioned Mcms is partially suppressed by Fun30. In addition, the authors show Fun30 affects nucleosome occupancy at the sites of the repositioned Mcm, providing a plausible mechanism for the effect of Fun30 on Mcm firing at that position. However, the results from the MNAse-seq and ChEC-seq assays are not fully congruent for the fun30 single mutant. Overall, the results support the conclusions providing a much better mechanistic understanding how Sir2 affects replication timing at rDNA, 

      The observation that the MNase-seq plot in fun30 mutant shows a large signal at the +3 nucleosome and somewhat smaller at position +2, while the ChEC-seq plot exhibits negligible signals, is indeed an important point of consideration. This discrepancy arises because most of the MCM in fun30 mutant remains at its original site where it abuts +1 nucleosome. As a result, the MCM-MNase fusion protein fails to reach and “light up” the +3 nucleosome, which is, nonetheless, well-visualized with exogenous MNase.  The paucity of displaced MCMs, which is responsible for cutting +2 nucleosome, explains the discrepancy in the +2 nucleosome signal between exogenous MNase and CheC datasets in the fun30 mutant.  

      Despite this apparent discrepancy, the overall results support our conclusions and provide a much better mechanistic understanding of how Sir2 affects replication timing at rDNA. The MNaseseq data reflect nucleosome positioning and chromatin structure, while the ChEC-seq data specifically highlights the locations where MCM is bound and active.  

      Strengths 

      (1) The data clearly show that the repositioned Mcm helicase fires earlier than the Mcm in the wild type position. 

      (2) The study identifies a specific role for Fun30 in replication timing and an effect on nucleosome occupancy around the newly positioned Mcm helicase in sir2 cells. 

      Weaknesses 

      (1) It is unclear which strains were used in each experiment. 

      (2) The relevance of the fun30 phospho-site mutant (S20AS28A) is unclear. 

      We appreciate the reviewer pointing out places in which our manuscript omitted key pieces of information (items 1 and 3), we have included the strain numbers in our revision.  With regard to point 2, we had written:  

      Fun30 is also known to play a role in the DNA damage response; specifically, phosphorylation of Fun30 on S20 and S28 by CDK1 targets Fun30 to sites of DNA damage, where it promotes DNA resection (Chen et al. 2016; Bantele et al. 2017). To determine whether the replication phenotype that we observed might be a consequence of Fun30's role in the DNA damage response, we tested non-phosphorylatable mutants for the ability to suppress early replication of the rDNA in sir2; these mutations had no effect on the replication phenotype (Figure 2B), arguing against a primary role for Fun30 in DNA damage repair that somehow manifests itself in replication. 

      (3) For some experiments (Figs. 3, 4, 6) it is unclear whether the data are reproducible and the differences significant. Information about the number of independent experiments and quantitation is lacking. This affects the interpretation, as fun30 seems to affect the +3 nucleosome much more than let on in the description. 

      We have provided replicas and quantitation for the results in these figures.

      (Replica ChEC Southern blot with quantification (Figure 3 figure supplement 1), quantification and replicas for 2D gels in Figure 4 and replicas for nucleosome occupancy (Figure 6 supplement 1).

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      Fig. 3-Examination of MCM occupancy at the rDNA ARS region using a variation of ChEC.

      Presumably these are these G1-arrested cells but does not seem to be stated. Please confirm. 

      The 2D gels results are not very convincing of their conclusions. We are asked to compare bubble to fork arcs at 30 minutes, but this is not feasible. It is the author's job to quantify the data from multiple replicates, but none is given. After much careful examination, comparing the relative intensities of ascending bubble and Y-arcs, I think I can accept that 4A shows highest early efficiency for sir2 over WT and fun30, which are similar to each other, and lowest for sir2 fun30, at 60 and 90 min. 

      In the revision we provide a careful quantification of the 2D gels in Figure 4. For assessing rDNA origin activity, we normalized the bubble arc during the HU time course to a single rARS signal, that appears as large 24.4kb Nhe1I fragment originating from the  rightmost rDNA repeat (see Figures 4A and 4B). The description of the quantification in the text is provided below. 

      “Prior to separation on 2D gels, DNA was digested with NheI, which releases a 4.7 kb rARScontaining linear DNA fragment at the internal rDNA repeats (1N) and a much larger, 24.5 kb single-rARS-containing fragment originating from the rightmost repeat. In 2D gels, active origins generate replication bubble arc signals, whereas passive replication of an origin appears as a y-arc. Having a signal emanating from a single ARS-containing fragment simplifies the comparison of rDNA origin activity in strains with different numbers of rDNA repeats, such as in sir2 vs sir2 fun30 mutants. Origin activity is expressed as a ratio of the bubble to the single-ARS signal, effectively measuring the number of active rDNA origins per cell at a given time point. 

      As seen previously (Foss et al. 2019), deletion of SIR2 increased the number of activated rDNA origins, while deletion of FUN30 suppressed this effect. When analyzed in aggregate at 20, 30, 60 and 90 minutes following release into HU, the average number of activated rDNA origin activity in sir2 mutant was increased 6.3-fold compared to those in WT (5.0±2.3 in sir2 vs 0.8±0.4 in wt, p<0.05 by 2 tailed t-test), and the increased number was reduced upon FUN30 deletion (1.3±0.7 in sir2 fun30, p<0.05 by 2 tailed t-test vs sir2, NS for comparison to WT).”

      However, for part 4B, they state (p. 11) that deletion of FUN30 in a SIR2 background had no perceptible effect (on ARS305) but I think the data appear otherwise: the FUN30 cells show more Y-arc than WT.

      We now provide the assessment of ARS305 activity in HU cells as a ratio of bubble-arc to 1N signal. The reviewer is right that FUN30 has a more robust bubble arc signal compared to WT.

      However, after normalization to 1N this difference did not appear significant (3.7 vs 5.1). Overall the analysis of activity or ARS305 origins demonstrates a reciprocity with the activity of rDNA origins in each of the four genotypes.  Furthermore, this observation is confirmed in our EdU-based analysis of 111 genomic origins, with statistical analysis showing a very high level of significance (see below).  

      Ultimately, analysis of unsynchronized cells would give unambiguous results about origin efficiency. In this regard I note that analysis of rDNA origin firing by 2D gels with HU versus asynchronous gives different results in WT versus sir2∆, with no difference in unsynchronized cells (He et al. 2022). It would be interesting to test the strains here unsynchronized, though copy number size would still be a variable to address.

      Origin activity in log cultures is typically assessed by comparing replication initiation within an origin, presenting as a bubble arc, to passively replicated DNA (Y-arc). However, such an analysis at tandemly arrayed origins, such as rDNA, is not feasible, as both active and passive replication are the result of activation of the same origins. This explains the lack of difference between WT and sir2 cells previously reported (He et al. 2022), which we have also observed. Differences in activation of rDNA origins in WT vs sir2 cells is clearly reflected in HU experiments, as was the case in the earlier report (He et al. 2022). 

      To address the issue of differences in copy number between sir2 and sir2 fun30 cells we have now done experiments in a fob1 background where we can equalize the copy number among the two genotypes. These 2D gels are presented in Figure 4C. We address this issue in the revised manuscript as follows:

      “The overall impact of FUN30 deletion on rDNA origin activity in a sir2 background is expected to be a composite of two opposing effects: a suppression of rDNA origin activation and increased rDNA origin activation due to reduced rDNA size (Kwan et al. 2023). To evaluate the effect FUN30 on rDNA origin activation independently of rDNA size, we generated an isogenic set of strains in a fob1 background, all of which contain 35 copies of the rDNA repeat.  (Deletion of FOB1 is necessary to stabilize rDNA copy number.)  Comparing rDNA origin activity in sir2 versus sir2 fun30 genotypes, we observed a robust and reproducible reduction in rDNA origin activity upon FUN30 deletion. This finding confirms that the FUN30 suppresses rDNA origin firing in sir2 background independently of both rDNA size and FOB1 status.”

      -EdU analysis is more convincing regarding relative effects on genome versus rDNA, however, again, the effect of reduced rDNA array size in the sir2 fun30 cells may also be the proximal cause of the reduced effect on genome (early origins) replication rather than a direct effect on origin efficiency. No statistic provided to support that fun30 suppresses sir2 for rDNA activity. 

      This comment raises three distinct, but related, issues: 

      First, the reviewer is asking whether the reduced rDNA size, of the magnitude we observed in sir2 fun30 cells, could by itself be responsible for increased origin activity elsewhere in the genome, just because there is less rDNA that needs to be replicated. As noted earlier (Kwan et al. 2023), Kwan et al. examined the effect of rDNA size reduction and observed: 1) marked increased in rDNA origin activity and 2) reciprocal reduction in origin activity elsewhere in the genome. This counterintuitive finding suggests that a smaller rDNA size exerts more competition for limited replication resources compared to a larger rDNA size. In light of this, our findings with FUN30 deletion become even more compelling. The suppression of rDNA firing upon FUN30 deletion is so significant that it overrides the expected effects of rDNA size reduction.

      Second, the reviewer points out our lack of statistical analysis to support our contention that fun30 suppresses sir2 with regard to rDNA origin activity. We have now addressed this issue as well, by quantifying 2D gel signals, as described above in the text that begins with "Prior to separation on 2D gels, DNA was digested with NheI ...". 

      Third, we have now provided a statistical analysis to support our conclusion that EdU-based analysis of activity of 111 early origins shows suppression upon deletion of SIR2 that is largely reversed by additional deletion of FUN30. 

      "Deletion of FUN30 in a sir2 background partially restored EdU incorporation at early origins, concomitant with reduced EdU incorporation at rDNA origins. In particular, the median value of log10 of read depths at 111 early origins, as the data are shown in Figure 4F, dropped from 6.5 for wild type to 6.2 for sir2 but then returned almost to wild type levels (6.4) in sir2 fun30.  The p value obtained by Student's t test, comparing the drop in 111 origins from wild type to sir2 with that from wild type to sir2 fun30 was highly significant (<< 10-16)  In contrast, FUN30 deletion in the WT background did not reduce EdU incorporation at genomic origins (median 6.6). These findings highlight that FUN30 deletion-induced suppression of rDNA origins in sir2 is accompanied by the activation of genomic origins."

      Use loss of Mcm-ChEC signal as proxy for origin firing. Reasonably convincing that decrease correlates with origin firing on a one-to-one basis (Fig. 5B), though no statistic given. 

      We provide the statistical analysis in Figure 5-figure supplement 1.

      However, there is no demonstration of ability to observe this correlation with fine resolution as needed for the claims here. It seems equally possible that sir2 deletion causes more firing by repositioning MCMs to a better location or that the prior location, which still contains substantial MCM, becomes more permissive. The MCM signal appears to be mobile, so perhaps the role of FUN30 is to prevent to mobility of MCM away from the original site in WT cells; note that significantly less Mcm signal is at the original position in sir2 fun30. No accumulation of MCM occurs near the RFB in WT (and fun30) cells. I understand that origin firing is lower in WT but raises concerns about sensitivity and dynamic range of this assay and that MCM positions may reflect transcription versus replication. 

      Please see the section above labeled "Addressing Alternative Explanations".  

      Is Fig 6A Y-axis correctly labeled? I understand this figure to represent MNase-seq reads; is there any Mcm2-ChEC-seq in part A? 

      We have corrected the labeling. 6A represent MNase-seq reads. Thank you for pointing this out.

      I understand part B to represent nucleosome-sized fragments released by Mcm2-ChEC interpreted to be nucleosomes. But could they be large fragments potentially containing adjacent MCM-double hexamers?  

      Our representation of ChEC-seq data in Figure 1 supplement 1, where we can see the entire spectrum of fragment sizes, demonstrates two distinct populations of fragments: nucleosome size and MCM-size fragments.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      Suggestions for the authors to consider: 

      (1) The authors make a good case for the importance of replication balance between rDNA and euchromatin in ensuring that the genome is replicated in a timely fashion. This seems to be clearly regulated by Sir2. However, Sir2 also affects rDNA copy number and suppresses unequal cross over events, which are stimulates by Fob1. Does Fun30 suppress Fob1-dependent recombination events in sir2D cells? 

      It is unclear why FUN30 only affects rDNA repeat copy number in sir2 cells. Why doesn't Fun30 reduce copy number in wild-type cells? 

      Deletion of SIR2 causes rightward repositioning of MCMs to a position where they are more prone to fire, as shown by our HU ChEC datasets in which we show that the repositioned MCMs are more prone to activation than the non-repositioned ones. FUN30 deletion suppresses activation of these, activation-prone repositioned MCMs, as shown by HU ChEC. This suppression of rDNA origin activation in sir2 cells causes rDNA to shrink. In fun30 single mutants, due to the paucity of non-repositioned MCMs, we do not observe significant suppression of rDNA origin firing, and consequently, there is no reduction in rDNA size in fun30 cells.

      (2) The authors use Mcm-MNase to map the location of the MCM helicase. Can these results be confirmed using the more standard and direct ChIP assay to examine changes in MCM localization

      We carried out suggested MCM ChIP experiments and present these results in Figure 5 supplement 2 and supplement 3. These ChIP data demonstrate that: 

      (1) MCM signal disappears preferentially at early origins compared to late origins, as seen in our ChEC results.

      (2) The disappearance of ChEC signal at rDNA origins in sir2 mutant is accompanied by the signal accumulation at the RFB, consistent with fork stalling at the RFB mirroring the results we obtained by ChEC. While these results indicate that that ChIP has adequate resolution to detect MCM repositioning at 2 kb, scale, its resolution was insufficient for fine scale discrimination of repositioned and non-repositioned MCMs.

      In this regard, the specific role of Fun30 in regulation of MCM firing at rDNA is interesting. 

      Does Fun30 localize to the ARS region of rDNA? How is Fun30 specifically recruited to rDNA?  

      We carried out ChIP for Fun30 and observed, similarly to previous reports (Durand-Dubief et al. 2012), a wide distribution of Fun30 throughout the genome and at rDNA. We have elected not to include these results in the current manuscript.

      (3) The 2D gels in Figure 4 are difficult to interpret. The bubble to arc ratios in fun30D seem different from both wild-type and sir2D. It may be helpful to the reader to quantify the bubble to arc ratios. fun30D also seems to be affecting ARS305 by itself.

      We provide quantification of 2 D gels in Figure 4.

      (4) Figure 5. 

      (4.1) For examining origin firing based on the disappearance of the Mcm-MNase reads, is HU arrest necessary? HU may be causing indirect effects due to replication fork stalling. In principle, the authors should be able to perform this analysis without HU, since their cells are released from synchronized arrest in G1 (and at least for the first cell cycle should proceed synchronously on to S phase). In addition, validation of Mcm-ChEC results using ChIP for one of the subunits of the MCM complex would increase confidence in the results. 

      The HU arrest allows us to examine early events in DNA replication at much finer spatial and temporal resolution than it would be possible without it.

      We have now used Mcm2 ChIP to confirm that the signal disappears at the MCM loading site in HU in sir2 cells as discussed above (Figure 5 figure supplement 3). However, the resolution is inadequate to discriminate non-repositioned vs repositioned MCMs.

      (4.2) The non-displaced Mcm-ChEC signal in sir2D seems like it's decreasing more than in wildtype cells. Explain. It would be helpful to quantify these results by integrating the area under each peek (or based on read numbers). It looks like one of the displaced Mcm signals (the one more distal from the non-displaced) is changing at a similar rate to the non-displaced.  

      Integrating the area under each Mcm-ChEC peak or using read numbers is superfluous for the following reasons:  (1) The rectangular appearance of the peaks in Figure 5 clearly reflects signal intensity, making additional numerical integration redundant. (2) The visual differences between wild-type and sir2D cells are distinct and sufficient for drawing conclusions without further quantification.  (3) Keeping the analysis straightforward avoids unnecessary complexity and maintains clarity.

      (4.3) Can the authors explain why fun30D seems to be suppressing only one of the 2 displaced Mcms from firing? 

      We speculate that the local environment is more conductive for firing one of two displaced MCMs, but we do not understand why.

      (5) Figure 6. Why would the deletion of SIR2, a silencing factor, results in increased nucleosome occupancy at rDNA? 

      If we understand correctly, the reviewer is referring to a small increase in +2 and +3 signal in sir2 compared to the WT. In WT G1 cells, there is a single MCM between +1 and +3 nucleosome. This space cannot accommodate a +2 nucleosome in G1 cells because MCM is loaded at that position in most cells (in G2 cells however, this space is occupied by a nucleosome (Foss et al., 2019). MCM repositioning in sir2 mutant would displace MCM from this location making it possible for this space to be now occupied by a nucleosome.

      The changes in nuc density seem modest. Also, nucleosome density is similarly increased in sir2D and fun30D cells, but sir2 has a dramatic effect on origin firing but fun30D does not. Explain. 

      We believe that the FUN30 status makes most of the difference for firing of displaced MCMs.

      Since there are few displaced MCMs in SIR2 cells, there is not large impact on origin firing. Furthermore, the rDNA already fires late in WT cells, so our ability to detect further delay upon  FUN30 deletion could be more difficult.

      (6) Discussion. At rDNA Sir2 may simply act by deacetylating nucleosomes and decreasing their mobility. This is unrelated to compaction which is usually only invoked regarding the activities of the full SIR complex (Sir2/3/4) at telomeres and the mating type locus. The arguments regarding polymerase size, compaction etc may not be relevant to the main point since although the budding yeast Sir2 participates in heterochromatin formation at the mating type loci and telomeres, at rDNA it may act locally near its recruitment site at the RFB. 

      This is a valid point. We have added this sentence in the discussion to highlight the differences between silencing at rDNA and those at the silent mating loci and telomeres that SIR-complex dependent.

      “Steric arguments such as these are even less compelling when made for rDNA than for the silent mating type loci and telomeres, because chromatin compaction has been studied mostly in the context of the complete Sir complex (Sir1-4). In contrast, Sir1, 3, and 4 are not present at the rDNA.”

      Minor 

      It would be interesting to see if deletion of any histone acetyltranferases acts in a similar way to Fun30 to reduce rDNA copy number in sir2D cells. 

      Thank you for this suggestion.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      (1) The design of Figure 3 could be improved. A scheme could help understand the assay without flipping back to Figure 1. The numbers below the gel bands need definition. 

      We have included the scheme describing the restriction and MCM-MNase cut sites and the location of the probe for the Southern blot.

      (2) The design of Figure 4 could be improved by adding a scheme to help interpret the 2d gel picture. The figure also lacks quantitation. Are the results reproducible and the differences significant? 

      We have added the scheme, quantification and statistics in Figure 4.

      (3) Please list in each figure legend the exact strains from Table S1 which were used. 

      We have included the strain numbers in the Figure legend.

      Durand-Dubief M, Will WR, Petrini E, Theodorou D, Harris RR, Crawford MR, Paszkiewicz K, Krueger F, Correra RM, Vetter AT et al. 2012. SWI/SNF-like chromatin remodeling factor Fun30 supports point centromere function in S. cerevisiae. PLoS Genet 8: e1002974.

      Foss EJ, Gatbonton-Schwager T, Thiesen AH, Taylor E, Soriano R, Lao U, MacAlpine DM, Bedalov A. 2019. Sir2 suppresses transcription-mediated displacement of Mcm2-7 replicative helicases at the ribosomal DNA repeats. PLoS Genet 15: e1008138.

      He Y, Petrie MV, Zhang H, Peace JM, Aparicio OM. 2022. Rpd3 regulates single-copy origins independently of the rDNA array by opposing Fkh1-mediated origin stimulation. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 119: e2212134119.

      Kwan EX, Alvino GM, Lynch KL, Levan PF, Amemiya HM, Wang XS, Johnson SA, Sanchez JC, Miller MA, Croy M et al. 2023. Ribosomal DNA replication time coordinates completion of genome replication and anaphase in yeast. Cell Rep 42: 112161.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      We are grateful for the many positive comments. Moreover, we appreciate the recommendations to improve the manuscript; particularly, the important discussion points raised by reviewer 1 and the comments made by reviewer 2 concerning an extended quantification of how near-spike input conductances vary across individual spikes. We have performed several new detailed analyses to address reviewer 2’s comments. In particular, we now provide for all relevant postsynaptic cells the complete distributions of the excitatory and inhibitory input conductance changes that occur right before and after postsynaptic spiking, and we provide corresponding distributions of non-spiking regions as a reference. We performed these analyses separately for different baseline activity levels. Our new results largely support our previous conclusions but provide a much more nuanced picture of the synaptic basis of spiking. To the best of our knowledge, this is the first time that parallel information on input excitation, inhibition and postsynaptic spiking is provided for individual neurons in a biological network. We would argue that our new results further support the fundamental notion that even a reductionist neuronal culture model can give rise to sophisticated network dynamics with spiking – at least partially – triggered by rapid input fluctuations, as predicted by theory. Moreover, it appears that changes in input inhibition are a key mechanism to regulate spiking during spontaneous recurrent network activity. It will be exciting to test whether this holds true for neural circuits in vivo.

      In the following section, we address the reviewers’ comments individually.

      Reviewer 1:

      In this study the authors develop methods to interrogate cultured neuronal networks to learn about the contributions of multiple simultaneously active input neurons to postsynaptic activity. They then use these methods to ask how excitatory and inhibitory inputs combine to result in postsynaptic neuronal firing in a network context.

      The study uses a compelling combination of high-density multi-electrode array recordings with patch recordings. They make ingenious use of physiology tricks such as shifting the reversal potential of inhibitory inputs, and identifying inhibitory vs. excitatory neurons through their influence on other neurons, to tease apart the key parameters of synaptic connections.

      We thank the reviewer for acknowledging our efforts to develop an approach to investigate the synaptic basis of spiking in biological neurons and for appreciating the technical challenges that needed to be overcome.

      The method doesn't have complete coverage of all neurons in the culture, and it appears to work on rather low-density cultures so the size of the networks in the current study is in the low tens.

      (1) It would be valuable to see the caveats associated with the small size of the networks examined here.

      (2) It would be also helpful if there were a section to discuss how this approach might scale up, and how better network coverage might be achieved.

      These are indeed very important points that we should have discussed in more detail. Maximizing the coverage of neurons is critical to our approach, as it determines the number of potential synaptic connections that can be tested. The number of cells that we seeded onto our HD-MEA chip was chosen to achieve monolayer neuronal cultures. As detailed in ‘Materials and Methods -> Electrode selection and long-term extracellular recording of network spiking’, the entire HD-MEA chip (all 26'400 electrodes) was scanned for activity at the beginning of each experiment, and electrodes that recorded spiking activity were subsequently selected. While it is possible that some individual neurons escape detection, since they were not directly adjacent to an electrode, we estimate that a large majority of the active neurons in the culture was covered by our electrode selection method. New generations of CMOS HD-MEAs developed in our laboratory and other groups feature higher electrode densities, larger recording areas, and larger sets of electrodes that can be simultaneously recorded from (e.g., DOI:

      10.1109/JSSC.2017.2686580 & 10.1038/s41467-020-18620-4). These features will substantially improve the coverage of the network and also allow for using larger neuronal networks. As suggested by reviewer 1, we added these points to the Discussion section of the revised manuscript.

      The authors obtain a number of findings on the conditions in which the dynamics of excitatory and inhibitory inputs permit spiking, and the statistics of connectivity that result in this. This is of considerable interest, and clearly one would like to see how these findings map to larger networks, to non-cortical networks, and ideally to networks in-vivo. The suite of approaches discussed here could potentially serve as a basis for such further development.

      (3) It would be useful for the authors to suggest such approaches.

      We are confident that our suite of approaches will open important avenues to study the E & I input basis of postsynaptic spiking in other circuits beyond the in vitro cortical networks studied here. In fact, CMOS HD-MEA probes have been successfully combined with patch clamping in vivo (DIO: 10.1101/370080) and, in principle, the strategies and software tools introduced in our study would be equally applicable in an in vivo context. However, currently available in vitro CMOS HD-MEAs still surpass their in vivo counterparts (e.g., Neuropixels probes) in terms of electrode count. Moreover, using in vitro neural networks enables easy access and better network coverage compared to in vivo conditions. These are the main reasons why we chose an in vitro network for our investigation. We added these points to the Discussion section of the revised manuscript.

      (4) The authors report a range of synaptic conductance waveforms in time. Not surprisingly, E and I look broadly different. Could the authors comment on the implications of differences in time-course of conductance profiles even within E (or I) synapses? Is this functional or is it an outcome of analysis uncertainty?

      We are grateful to the reviewer for raising this interesting point. On the one hand, the onsets of the synaptic conductance waveform estimates were strikingly different between E and I synapses (see Fig. 8D). Furthermore, the rise and decay phases of synaptic currents were distinct for E vs. I inputs (Fig. 4C). We think that these differences are not just due to analysis uncertainty because both these observations are consistent with previously described properties of E and I inputs: Synaptic GABAergic I currents are typically slower compared to Glutamatergic E currents with respect to both rising and decay phase (DOI: 10.1126/science.abj586). Moreover, the relatively small onset latencies for I inputs that we observed are consistent with the well-known local action of inhibition. This finding was also consistent with smaller PRE-POST distances and general differences in neurite characteristics of E compared to I cells (Fig. S2).

      One of the challenges in doing such studies in a dish is that the network is simply ticking away without any neural or sensory context to work on, nor any clear idea of what its outputs might mean. Nevertheless, at a single-neuron level one expects that this system might provide a reasonable subset of the kinds of activity an individual cell might have to work on.

      (5) Could the authors comment on what subsets of network activity is, and is not, likely to be seen in the culture?

      (6) Could they indicate what this would mean for the conclusions about E-I summation, if the in-vivo activity follows different dynamics?

      We agree that there are natural limitations to a reductionist model, such as a dissociated cell culture. One may argue that neuronal cultures bear some similarities with neural networks formed during early brain development, where network formation is primarily driven by intrinsic, self-organizational capabilities. While such a self-organization is likely constrained in a 2D culture, it has been shown that several important circuit mechanisms that are observed in vivo are preserved in 2D dissociated cultures. For example, dissociated neuronal cultures can maintain E-I balance and achieve active decorrelation (DOI: 10.1038/nn.4415). In addition, in terms of activity levels, the sequences of heightened and more quiescent network spiking bear similarities with cortical Up-Down state oscillations observed during slow-wave sleep. To what extent individual circuit connectivity motifs and more nuanced network dynamics, found in vivo, can be recapitulated in vitro, is still not clear. However, combining our and previous work (especially DOI: 10.1038/nn.4415), we believe that there is sufficient evidence to justify work such as ours. On the one hand, identifying in simple cell culture models features of network dynamics and microcircuits known (or predicted) to exist in vivo is a testimony of neuronal self-organizing capabilities. On the other hand, our in vitro results will allow for more directed testing of equivalent mechanisms in vivo.

      Reviewer 2:

      The authors had two aims in this study. First, to develop a tool that lets them quantify the synaptic strength and sign of upstream neurons in a large network of cultured neurons. Second, they aimed at disentangling the contributions of excitatory and inhibitory inputs to spike generation.

      For the quantification of synaptic currents, their methods allows them to quantify excitatory and inhibitory currents simultaneously, as the sign of the current is determined by the neuron identity in the high-density extracellular recording. They further made sure that their method works for nonstationary firing rates, and they did a simulation to characterize what kind of connections their analysis does not capture. They did not include the possibility of (dendritic) nonlinearities or gap junctions or any kind of homeostatic processes.

      Thank you for the concise summary of our aims and of the features of our method. Indeed, we did not model nonlinear synaptic interactions, short-term plasticity etc., as there is likely a spectrum of possible interaction rules. Importantly, non-linear synaptic interactions were reduced by performing synaptic measurements in voltage-clamp mode.

      We do not anticipate that this would impact our connectivity inference per se. However, the presence of a significant number of nonlinear events would imply that some deviations between reconstructed and measured patch current traces were to be expected even if all incoming monosynaptic connections were identified. In the future, it will be exciting to add to our current experimental protocol a simultaneous HD-MEA & patch-clamp recording, in which the membrane potential is measured in current-clamp mode. Following application of our synaptic input-mapping procedure, one could, in this way, directly assess input-sequence dependent non-linear synaptic integration during spontaneous network activity.

      I see a clear weakness in the way that they quantify their goodness of fit, as they only report the explained variance, while their data are quite nonstationary. It could help to partition the explained variance into frequency bands, to at least separate the effects of a bias in baseline, the (around 100 Hz) band of synaptic frequencies and whatever high-frequency observation noise there may be. Another weak point is their explanation of unexplained variance by potential activation of extrasynaptic receptors without providing evidence. Given that these cultures are not a tissue and diffusion should be really high, this idea could easily be tested by adding a tiny amount of glutamate to the culture media.

      As suggested by the reviewer, we have now partitioned the current traces into frequency bands and separately assessed the goodness-of-fit. We have updated Fig. 3C accordingly:

      The following sentence was added to the main text:

      “We separately compared slow baseline changes (< 3 Hz), fast synaptic activity (3 - 200 Hz) and putative high-frequency noise (> 200 Hz), yielding a median variance explained of approximately 60% in the 3 - 200 Hz range (Fig. 3C).”

      Importantly, the variance explained in the frequency range of synaptic activity remains high. We would also like to point out that, even if all synaptic input connections were identified, one would expect some deviations between measured and reconstructed current trace. This is because the reconstructed trace is based on average input current waveforms and in the measured trace there may be synaptic transmission failures.

      We agree that the offered explanation for unexplained variance by activation of extrasynaptic receptors is fairly speculative. As it was not a crucial discussion point, we have therefore removed the statement.

      For the contributions of excitation and inhibition to neuronal spiking, the authors found a clear reduction of inhibitory inputs and increase of excitation associated with spiking when averaging across many spikes. And interestingly, the inhibition shows a reversal right after a spike and the timescale is faster during higher network activity. While these findings are great and provide further support that their method is working, they stop at this exciting point where I would really have liked to see more detail.

      Thank you for acknowledging our main results concerning the synaptic basis of spiking. We attempted to integrate in one manuscript a suite of new approaches, in addition to the respective applications. We, therefore, tried to strike the appropriate level of detail in presenting our findings. With regard to our analyses of which synaptic input events regulate postsynaptic spiking, we agree with reviewer 2’s assessment that more detail concerning the variability across individual spikes would be helpful. In the following parts, we detail multiple new analyses that we have included in the revised manuscript to address reviewer 2’s comments.

      A concern, of course, is that the network bursts in cultures are quite stereotypical, and that might cause averages across many bursts to show strange behaviour. So what I am missing here is a reference or baseline or null hypothesis. How does it look when using inputs from neurons that are not connected? And then, it looks like the E/(E+I) curve has lots of peaks of similar amplitude (that could be quantified...), so why does the neuron spike where it does? If I would compare to the peak (of similar amplitude) right before or right after (as a reference) are there some systematic changes? Is maybe the inhibition merely defining some general scaffold where spikes can happen and the excitation causes the spike as spiking is more irregular?

      The averaged trace reveals a different timescale for high and low activity states. But does that reflect a superposition of EPSCs in a single trial or rather a different jittering of a single EPSC across trials? For answering this question, it would be good to know the variance (and whether/ how much it changes over time). Maybe not all spikes are preceded by a decrease in inhibition. Could you quantitify (correlate, scatterplot?) how exactly excitation and inhibition contributions relate for single postsynaptic spikes (or single postsynaptic non-spikes)? After all, this would be the kind of detail that requires the large amount of data that this study provides.

      First of all, we are very grateful for the reviewer’s thorough assessment of our work and for the many valuable suggestions to improve it. We are convinced that we have addressed with our new analyses and the updated manuscript all issues raised here. One of the main findings from our original manuscript was that a rapid and brief change in input conductance (and particularly a reduction in inhibition) is an important spike trigger/regulator. We followed the reviewer’s suggestion and now provide scatter plots and distributions of the pre- (and post-spike) changes in input excitation and inhibition for individual postsynaptic spikes. A quantification of the peaks in the noisy E/(E+I) traces was not always trivial, which is why we reasoned that an assessment of the respective E and I changes is better suited. Moreover, as an unbiased reference, we generated separately for each postsynaptic cell a corresponding distribution of changes in input conductance in non-spiking periods (using random time points). We included our new results and updated figures in our responses to the specific reviewer comments below.

      For the first part, the authors achieved their goal in developing a tool to study synaptic inputs driving subthreshold activity at the soma, and characterizing such connections. For the second part, they found an effect of EPSCs on firing, but they barely did any quantification of its relevance due to the lack of a reference.

      With the availability of Neuropixels probes, there is certainly use for their tool in in vivo applications, and their statistical analysis provides a reference for future studies.

      The relevance of excitatory and inhibitory currents on spiking remains to be seen in an updated version of the manuscript.

      Thank you. Please see our new analyses below. Our new findings are in agreement with the main conclusions of the original manuscript. We provide evidence that rapid pre-spike changes in input conductance are observed across most individual spikes and that these rapid changes occur significantly more often before measured spikes than in non-spiking periods.

      I feel that specifically Figures 6 and 7 lack relevant detail and a consistent representation that would allow the reader to establish links between the different panels. The analysis shows very detailed examples, but then jumps into analyses that show population averages over averaged responses, losing or ignoring the variability across trials. In addition, while their results themselves pass a statistical test, it is crucial to establish some measure of how relevant these results are. For that, I would really want to know how much spiking would actually be restricted by the constraints that would be posed by these results, i.e. would this be reflected in tiny changes in spiking probabilities, or are there times when spiking probabilities are necessarily high, or do we see times when we would almost certainly get a spike, but neurons can fire during other times as well.

      I would agree that a detailed, quantitative analysis of this question is beyond the scope of this paper, but a qualitative analysis is feasible and should be done.

      Please see our revised Figure 6. We have rearranged some of the original panels and removed one example of mean conductance profiles. Moreover, we removed a panel with analysis results based on mean conductances that is now obsolete, as more detailed analyses are provided (which are in agreement with the original findings). Analyses from panels (A-F) are mostly unchanged. Panels (G-J) show the new results.

      The following paragraphs, which were added to the main text of the revised manuscript, describe our new findings:

      “For a more nuanced picture of which synaptic events are associated with postsynaptic spiking, we next quantified the changes in input excitation and inhibition that preceded individual postsynaptic spikes. In our analysis, we first focused on periods with high synaptic input activity. As previously discussed, cortical neurons in vivo typically receive and integrate barrages of input activation, similar to the high-activity events that we observed here (e.g., the event depicted in Fig. 6A, right). In Fig. 6G/H, individual pre-spike changes in input conductance are shown for two example postsynaptic neurons (plots labeled ‘spiking’, right). To assess how specific these conductance changes were to spiking periods, we also quantified the changes in input conductance that occurred during non-spiking periods as a reference (we used random time points from high-activity events excluding time points adjacent to measured spike times; we upscaled the number of measured spikes by 10x; the respective plots were labeled ‘non-spiking’). Spikes of both example neurons exhibited – compared to non-spiking regions – significantly more often a pre-spike decrease in inhibition, consistent with the mean conductance profiles. Precisely how an increase (top-right quadrants in Fig. 6G/H) or decrease (bottom-left quadrants) in both I and E conductance influenced the neuronal membrane potential is difficult to predict. However, if rapid changes in input conductance had a significant role in triggering spikes, one would expect that fewer spikes would exhibit a hyperpolarizing pre-spike increase in I and decrease in E (top-left quadrant) compared to the non-spiking period. Conversely, a decrease in I and an increase E (bottom-right quadrants) would likely result in a membrane potential depolarization so that more spikes should feature the corresponding pre-spike conductance changes compared to non-spiking periods. These relative shifts are precisely what can be observed in the plots of the two example neurons (Fig. 6G/H) and, in fact, across recordings (Fig. 6I). Finally, we compared the distributions of pre-spike changes in input inhibition and excitation of each postsynaptic neuron (Fig. 6J). Further indicating a pivotal role of inhibition in triggering spikes, 6 out of 7 neurons exhibited a clear decrease in the mean values (and medians) of pre-spike changes in inhibition compared to non-spiking periods. Interestingly, the 3 out of 7 neurons with an increase in excitation showed the smallest decrease in inhibition (or even an increase in inhibition in case of neuron #7). This latter observation suggests a matching of E and I inputs and cell-specific relative contributions of E and I conductance changes in triggering spikes.

      Theoretically, neuronal spiking could be driven by a prolonged suprathreshold depolarization (Petersen and Berg 2016; Renart et al. 2007) or, in more favorable subthreshold regimes, by fast synaptic input fluctuations (Ahmadian and Miller 2021; Amit and Brunel 1997; Brunel 2000; Van Vreeswijk and Sompolinsky 1996). In this section, we demonstrated that the majority of investigated neurons featured – during high-activity periods – a significant number of spikes that were associated with rapid pre-spike changes in input conductances. These findings suggest that even simple neuronal cultures can self-organize to form circuits exhibiting sophisticated spiking dynamics.”

      Our new analyses detailed in Fig. 6 show that there are also presumably depolarizing events (e.g., decrease in I and increase in E) in non-spiking regions. In future studies, it will be interesting to examine what distinguishes these events from spike-inducing events of similar magnitude – one possibility is a dependency on specific input-activation sequences.

      During the first days and weeks of developing neuronal cultures, spiking activity rapidly shifts from synapse-independent activity patterns to spiking dynamics that do depend on synaptic inputs and are progressively organized in network-wide high-activity events (DOI: 10.1016/j.brainres.2008.06.022). In our study, cultures at days-in-vitro 15-18 were used, and approximately 15% of the spikes occurred during high-activity events with relatively strong E and I input activity. In addition, spikes that occurred during low-activity events were at least partially regulated by synaptic input (see answers below related to Fig. 7).

      In the following, I am detailing what I would consider necessary to be done about these two Figures:

      Figure 6C is indeed great, though I don't see why the authors would characterize synchrony as low. When comparing with Figure 4B, I'd think that some of these values are quite high. And it wouldn't help me to imagine error bars in panel 6D.

      We have removed our characterization as ‘low’ from the text. One important difference between our synchrony measure (STTC) and the quantification of spike-transmission probability (STP) is the ‘lag’ of a few milliseconds for the STP quantification window to account for synaptic delay.

      Figure 6B is useful, but could be done better: The autocovariance of a shotnoise process is a convolution of the autocovariance of underlying point process and the autocovariance of the EPSC kernel. So one would want to separate those to obtain a better temporal resolution. But a shotnoise process has well defined peaks, and the time of these local maxima can be estimated quite precisely. Now if I would do a peak triggered average instead of the full convolution, I would do half of the deconvolution and obtain a temporally asymmetric curve of what is expected to happen around an EPSC. Importantly, one could directly see expected excitation after inhibition or expected inhibition after excitation, and this visualization could be much better and more intuitively compared to panel 6E.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s suggestion to present these results in a more sophisticated way. We would like to propose to stick with the original analysis to have it comparable with related analyses from the literature (e.g., DOI: 10.1038/nn.2105). Therefore, we hope the reviewer finds it acceptable that we leave the presentation of the data in its original form and potentially follow up in future work with the analysis strategy proposed by the reviewer.

      Panel D needs some variability estimate (i.e. standard deviation or interquartile range or even a probability density) for those traces.

      Figure 6E: Please use more visible colors. A sensitivity analysis to see traces for 2E/(2E+I) and E/(E+2I) would be great.

      Figure 6F: with an updated panel B, we should be able to have a slope for average inhibition after excitation for each of these cells. A second panel / third column showing those slopes would be of interest. It would serve as a reference for what could be expected from E-I interactions alone.

      With regard to the variability estimate in D, we now provide multiple panels characterizing the variability. For one, Fig. 6H contains a scatter plot of the pre-spike changes in input conductance across all individual postsynaptic spikes from the example cell shown in D. Moreover, in Fig. 7A, we show from the same example cell the standard deviations associated with the mean conductance traces separately for spikes that occurred during low- and high-activity states. For better visibility and because the separation according to activity states is more informative, we kept the original presentation of panel D (however, removing one example cell). In addition, we show the same mean traces from panel D with the respective standard deviations (across all spikes) in Supplementary Figure S3.

      Colors in Fig. 6E are adjusted, as requested.

      We have removed panel Fig. 6F as we now provide more detailed analyses at single-spike level (see Fig. 6G-J).

      Figure 6G: Could the authors provide an interquartile range here?

      With regard to the aligned input-output data from original panel Fig. 6G, now in panel Fig. 6F in the updated figure version, we show all individual traces that were averaged: the E/I traces from panel Fig. 6E and the three action potential waveforms from Supplementary Figure S5. Therefore, we chose to present the means only for better visibility.

      Figure 7A: it may be hard to squeeze in variability estimates here, but the information on whether and how much variance might be explained is essential. Maybe add another panel to provide a variability estimate? The variability estimate in panel 7B and 7D only reflect variability across connections, and it would be useful to add panels for the time courses of the variability of g (or E/(E+I) respectively).

      We now include the standard deviations across the input conductance traces in the updated Fig. 7A, as requested. We have also simplified Fig. 7 and performed the analysis using the 6 out of 7 neurons that, based on our new analysis (Fig. 6J) displayed a clear reduction in pre-spike inhibition, relative to the reference distribution. For a complete overview of the state-dependent changes in input conductance that are associated with individual postsynaptic spikes, we have included a new supplementary figure (Fig. S6). Fig. S6 also includes a characterization of the changes in input inhibition that occur right after postsynaptic spiking. In addition, Fig. S6D shows the standard deviations corresponding to the mean input conductance traces of all cells – separately for high- and low-activity periods.

      We added the following paragraph to the main text of the revised manuscript:

      “How can these deviations in the mean conductance profiles be explained? To answer this question, we further quantified – separately for low and high g states – the changes in input inhibition that occurred right before and after individual postsynaptic spikes (Fig. S6). This single-spike analysis suggested that, during high g states, most spikes experienced a post-spike increase and pre-spike decrease in inhibition (see also Fig. 6J). On the other hand, low g states were characterized by sparse synaptic input (e.g., see reconstruction in Fig. 6A). Therefore, many of the spikes that occurred during low g states were associated with little change in input conductance (note medians of approximately zero in Fig. S6A/C). Nevertheless, a considerable fraction of spikes (often > 25%) from low g states were also associated with a post-spike increase and pre-spike drop in inhibition. It, therefore, appears that even the sparse inhibitory inputs of low g states could influence spike timing. Moreover, the post-spike increases in input inhibition during low g states suggest that there were strong regulatory inhibitory circuits in place. However, limited activity levels during low g states presumably introduced an increased jitter of these spike-associated changes in input inhibition.

      In summary, the input inhibition of high-conductance states provides reliable and narrow windows-of-spiking opportunity. In addition, even during periods of sparse activity, there are rudimentary synaptic mechanisms in place to regulate spike timing.”

      As a suggestion for further analysis, though I am well aware that this is likely beyond the scope of this manuscript, I'd suggest the following analysis:

      I would split the data into the high and low activity states. Then I would compute the average of E/(E+I) values for spikes. Assuming that spikes tend to happen for local maxima of E/(E+I) I would find local maxima for periods without spike such that their average is equal to the value for actual spikes. Finally, I would test for a systematic difference in either excitation or inhibition.

      If there is no difference, you can make the claim that synaptic input does not guarantee a spike, and compare to a global average of E/(E+I).

      We are grateful for the fantastic suggestions for future analysis. We look forward to conducting these analyses in a more detailed follow-up characterization.

      In addition to the major alterations detailed above, we performed smaller corrections (e.g., spelling mistakes, inaccuracies) in some parts of the manuscript.

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  13. Aug 2024
    1. Welcome to this lesson where I'm going to be talking about high availability (HA), fault tolerance (FT), and disaster recovery (DR). It's essential that you understand all three of these to be an effective solutions architect and I want to make sure that you understand all of them correctly. Many of the best architects and consultants that I've worked with have misunderstood exactly what HA and FT mean. The best outcome of this misunderstanding is that you waste business funds and put a project at risk. Worst case, you can literally put lives at risk. So, let's jump in and get started and I promise to keep it as brief as possible, but this really is something you need to fully understand.

      Let's start with high availability. This is a term that most people think that they understand. Formally, the definition is that high availability aims to ensure an agreed level of operational performance, usually uptime, for a higher than normal period and I've highlighted the key parts of that definition. Most students that I initially teach have an assumption that making a system highly available means ensuring that the system never fails or that the user of a system never experiences any outages and that is not true. HA isn't aiming to stop failure, and it definitely doesn't mean that customers won't experience outages. A highly available system is one designed to be online and providing services as often as possible. It's a system designed so that when it fails, its components can be replaced or fixed as quickly as possible, often using automation to bring systems back into service. High availability is not about the user experience. If a system fails and a component is replaced and that disrupts service for a few seconds, that's okay. It's still highly available. High availability is about maximizing a system's online time and that's it.

      Let me give you an example. Let's say we have a system which has a customer, Winnie. Winnie is a data scientist and uses a bespoke application to identify complex data trends. Now, this application runs on a single server, let's say inside AWS. The application probably has other users in addition to Winnie. It's an important application to the business. If it's down, the staff can't work. If they can't work, they don't generate value to the business and of course, this costs the business money. If we have a failure, it means that the system is now suffering an outage, it's not available. System availability is generally expressed in the form of a percentage of uptime. So we might have 99.9 or three nines and this means that we can only have 8.77 hours of downtime per year. Imagine only being able to take a system down for 8.77 hours a year, that's less than one hour per month. It gets worse though, some systems need even higher levels of availability. We've got 99.999% availability or five nines and this only allows for 5.26 minutes per year of downtime. That means for all outages during a year, you have 5.26 minutes. That includes identifying that there's an outage, identifying the cause, devising a solution, and implementing a fix. An outage in this context is defined as something which impacts that server, so impacts your users.

      Now, fixing Winnie's application quickly can be done by swapping out the compute resource, probably a virtual server. Rather than using time to diagnose the issue, if you have a process ready to replace it, it can be fixed quickly and probably in an automated way, or you might improve this further by having two servers online constantly, one active and one standby. In the event of a failure, customers would move to the standby server with very close to zero downtime. But, and this is a key factor about high availability, when they migrate from the active server to the standby server, they might have to re-login or might have some small disruption. For high availability, user disruption, while not being ideal, is okay. It can happen because high availability is just about minimizing any outages.

      Now, this might explain it a little better. This is a real-world example of something which has high availability built in. It's a four by four. If you were driving in the desert with a normal urban-grade car and it got a flat tire, would you have a spare? Would you have the tools ready to repair it as quickly as possible? In a desert, an outage or delay could have major impacts. It's risky and it could impact getting to your destination. So an example of high availability is to carry a spare wheel and the tools required to replace it. You would of course, need to spend time changing the tire, which is a disruption, but it could be done and it minimizes the time that you're out of action. If you don't have a spare tire, then you'd need to call for assistance, which would substantially increase the time you're out of action. So, high availability is about keeping a system operational. It's about fast or automatic recovery of issues. It's not about preventing user disruption. While that's a bonus, a highly available system can still have disruption to your user base when there is a failure.

      Now, high availability has costs required to implement it. It needs some design decisions to be made in advance and it requires a certain level of automation. Sometimes, high availability needs redundant servers or redundant infrastructure to be in place ready to switch customers over to in the event of a disaster to minimize downtime.

      Now, let's take this a step further and talk about fault tolerance and how it differs from high availability. When most people think of high availability, they're actually mixing it up with fault tolerance. Fault tolerance in some ways is very similar to high availability, but it is much more. Fault tolerance is defined as the property that enables a system to continue operating properly in the event of a failure of some of its components, so one or more faults within the system. Fault tolerance means that if a system has faults, and this could be one fault or multiple faults, then it should continue to operate properly, even while those faults are present and being fixed. It means it has to continue operating through a failure without impacting customers.

      Imagine a scenario where we have somebody injured, so we've got Dr. Abbie and she's been told that she has an urgent case of an injured patient and we'll call this patient, Mike. Mike has been rushed to the hospital after injuring himself running. He's currently being prepped for a surgical procedure and is in the operating room and currently under general anesthetic. While he's unconscious, he's being monitored and this monitoring system indicates when to reduce or increase the levels of anesthetic that Mike gets. It's critical that this server is not to be interrupted ever. The system uses underlying infrastructure on-premises at the hospital. Now, in the event of a system failure, if it was just a highly available system, the server could be replaced or another server could be included in an active standby architecture. In either case, the swap between the servers would cause a system error, a disruption. However quick the fix, however small that disruption, in certain situations like this, any disruption can be life-threatening. This is an example of a situation where high availability isn't enough. Fault tolerance systems are designed to work through failure with no disruption. In this example, we might have the system's monitor communicating with two servers at the same time in an active, active configuration. The monitor is connected to both servers all of the time. So this is not just a simple fail-over configuration. If a server failed, it would drop down to just communicating with the remaining server and as long as one server remains active, the system is fully functional. Now, we could take this further adding a second monitoring system, itself with connections to both servers. That way, one monitor can fail, one server can fail and still the service would continue uninterrupted. We could even eliminate the human dependency in the system and add an extra surgeon, Dr. Abbie's twin.

      Most people think that HA means operating through failure, it's not. HA is just about maximizing uptime. Fault tolerance is what means to operate through failure. Fault tolerance can be expensive because it's much more complex to implement versus high availability. High availability can be accomplished by having spare equipment, so standby, physical or virtual components. As long as you automate things and have these spare components ready to go, you can minimize outages. With fault tolerance, it's about more than that. You first need to minimize outages, which is the same as HA, but then you also need to design the system to be able to tolerate the failure, which means levels of redundancy and system components, which can route traffic and sessions around any failed components.

      Now remember the example I used for high availability, the four by four in the desert. There are situations where we can't pull over to the side of the road and change a component. An example of this is a plane, which is in the air. A plane needs to operate through systems failure, so through an engine failure, for example. If an engine fails, the plane can't simply stop and effect repairs. So, a plane comes with more engines than it needs. It comes with duplicate electronic systems and duplicate hydraulic systems, so that when it has a problem, it just carries on running until it can safely land and effect repairs. AWS is no exception to this. Systems can be designed to only maximize uptime, which is high availability, or they can be designed for mission or life critical situations and so, designed to operate through that failure, which is fault tolerance.

      As a solutions architect, you need to understand what your customer requires. A customer might say that they need HA or fault tolerance while not understanding the difference. Fault tolerance is harder to design, harder to implement and costs much more. Implementing fault tolerance when you really needed high availability simply means you're wasting money. It costs more, and it takes longer to implement. But the reverse, implementing high availability when you need fault tolerance, means that you're potentially putting life at risk. A highly available plane is less than ideal. Understand the difference, if you don't, it can be disastrous.

      So, let's move on to the final concept, which is disaster recovery. The definition of disaster recovery is a set of policies, tools, and procedures to enable the recovery or continuation of vital technology infrastructure and systems following a natural or human-induced disaster. So, while high availability and fault tolerance are about designing systems to cope or operate through disaster, disaster recovery is about what to plan for and do when disaster occurs, which knocks out a system. So, if high availability and fault tolerance don't work, what then? What if your building catches fire, is flooded or explodes? Disaster recovery is a multiple-stage set of processes. So given a disaster, it's about what happens before, so the pre-planning and what happens afterwards, the DR process itself.

      The worst time for any business is recovering in the event of a major disaster. In that type of environment, bad decisions are made, decisions based on shock, lack of sleep, and fear of how to recover. So, a good set of DR processes need to preplan for everything in advance. Build a set of processes and documentation, plan for staffing and physical issues when a disaster happens. If you have a business premises with some staff, then part of a good DR plan might be to have a standby premises ready and this standby premises can be used in the event of a disaster. That way, done in advance, your staff unaffected by the disaster, know exactly where to go. You might need space for IT systems or you might use a cloud platform, such as AWS as a backup location, but in any case, you need the idea of a backup premises or a backup location that's ready to go in the event of a disaster.

      If you have local infrastructure, then make sure you have resilience. Make sure you have plans in place and ready during a disaster. This might be extra hardware sitting at the backup site ready to go, or it might be virtual machines or instances operating in a cloud environment ready when you need them. A good DR plan means taking regular backups, so this is essential. But the worst thing you can do is to store these backups at the same site as your systems, it's dangerous. If your main site is damaged, your primary data and your backups are damaged at the same time and that's a huge problem. You need to have plans in place for offsite backup storage. So, in the event of a disaster, the backups can be restored at the standby location. So, have the backups of your primary data offsite and ready to go and make sure that all of the staff know the location and the access requirements for these backups.

      Effective DR planning isn't just about the tech though, it's about knowledge. Make sure that you have copies of all your processes available. All your logins to key systems need to be available for the staff to use when they're at this standby site. Do this in advance and it won't be a chaotic process when an issue inevitably occurs. Ideally, you want to run periodic DR testing to make sure that you have everything you need and then if you identify anything missing, you can refine your processes and run the test again. If high availability is a four-by-four, if fault tolerance are the resilient systems on large planes, then effective DR processes are pilot or passenger ejection systems. DR is designed to keep the crucial and non-replaceable parts of your system safe, so that when a disaster occurs, you don't lose anything irreplaceable and can rebuild after the disaster. Historically, disaster recovery was very manual. Because of cloud and automation, DR can now be largely automated, reducing the time for recovery and the potential for any errors.

      As you go through the course, I'm going to help you understand how to implement high availability and fault tolerance systems in AWS using AWS products and services. So, you need to understand both of these terms really well and disaster recovery. So in summary, high availability is about minimizing any outages, so maximizing system availability. Fault tolerance extends this, building systems which operate through faults and failures. Don't confuse the two. Fault tolerance is much more complex and expensive. It takes a lot more time and effort to implement and manage. I'll help you as we go through the course by identifying how to implement systems which are highly available and how to implement systems which are fault tolerant. AWS provides products and services which help with both of those or just help with one or the other and you need to know the difference. Disaster recovery is how we recover. It's what we do when high availability and fault tolerance don't work and AWS also has many systems and features which help with disaster recovery and one of the things that the exam tests will be your knowledge of how quickly you can recover and how best to recover, given the various different products and services and I'll highlight all of this as we go through the course. At this point, that's everything I wanted to cover, so thanks for listening. Go ahead, complete this video and when you're ready, I'll see you in the next.

  14. Jun 2024
    1. The sound Viserys Targaryen made when that hideous iron helmetcovered his face was like nothing human. His feet hammered afrantic beat against the dirt oor, slowed, stopped. Thick globs ofmolten gold dripped down onto his chest, setting the scarlet silk tosmoldering ... yet no drop of blood was spilled.He was no dragon, Dany thought, curiously calm. Fire cannot kill adragon.

      tragic family

    Annotators

    1. Author response:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Reviewer #1, comment #1: The study is thorough and systematic, and in comparing three well-separated hypotheses about the mechanism leading from grid cells to hexasymmetry it takes a neutral stand above the fray which is to be particularly appreciated. Further, alternative models are considered for the most important additional factor, the type of trajectory taken by the agent whose neural activity is being recorded. Different sets of values, including both "ideal" and "realistic" ones, are considered for the parameters most relevant to each hypothesis. Each of the three hypotheses is found to be viable under some conditions, and less so in others. Having thus given a fair chance to each hypothesis, nevertheless, the study reaches the clear conclusion that the first one, based on conjunctive grid-by-head-direction cells, is much more plausible overall; the hypothesis based on firing rate adaptation has intermediate but rather weak plausibility; and the one based on clustering of cells with similar spatial phases in practice would not really work. I find this conclusion convincing, and the procedure to reach it, a fair comparison, to be the major strength of the study.

      Response: Thanks for your positive assessment of our manuscript.

      Reviewer #1, comment #2: What I find less convincing is the implicit a priori discarding of a fourth hypothesis, that is, that the hexasymmetry is unrelated to the presence of grid cells. Full disclosure: we have tried unsuccessfully to detect hexasymmetry in the EEG signal from vowel space and did not find any (Kaya, Soltanipour and Treves, 2020), so I may be ranting off my disappointment, here. I feel, however, that this fourth hypothesis should be at least aired, for a number of reasons. One is that a hexasymmetry signal has been reported also from several other cortical areas, beyond entorhinal cortex (Constantinescu et al, 2016); true, also grid cells in rodents have been reported in other cortical areas as well (Long and Zhang, 2021; Long et al, bioRxiv, 2021), but the exact phenomenology remains to be confirmed.

      Response: Thank you for the suggestion to add the hypothesis that the neural hexasymmetry observed in previous fMRI and intracranial EEG studies may be unrelated to grid cells. Following your suggestion, we have now mentioned at the end of the fourth paragraph of the Introduction that “the conjunctive grid by head-direction cell hypothesis does not necessarily depend on an alignment between the preferred head directions with the grid axes”. Furthermore, at the end of section “Potential mechanisms underlying hexadirectional population signals in the entorhinal cortex” (in the Discussion) we write: “However, none of the three hypotheses described here may be true and another mechanism may explain macroscopic grid-like representations. This includes the possibility that neural hexasymmetry is completely unrelated to grid-cell activity, previously summarized as the ‘independence hypothesis' (Kunz et al., 2019). For example, a population of head-direction cells whose preferred head directions occur at offsets of 60 degrees from each other could result in neural hexasymmetry in the absence of grid cells. The conjunctive grid by head-direction cell hypothesis thus also works without grid cells, which may explain why grid-like representations have been observed (using fMRI) in regions outside the entorhinal cortex, where rodent studies have not yet identified grid cells (Doeller et al., 2010; Constantinescu et al., 2016). In that case, however, another mechanism would be needed that could explain why the preferred head directions of different head-direction cells occur at multiples of 60 degrees. Attractor-network structures may be involved in such a mechanism, but this remains speculative at the current stage.” We now also mention the results from Long and Zhang (second paragraph of the Introduction): “Surprisingly, grid cells have also been observed in the primary somatosensory cortex in foraging rats (Long and Zhang, 2021).”

      Regarding your EEG study, we have added a reference to it in the manuscript and state that it is an example for a study that did not find evidence for neural hexasymmetry (end of first paragraph of the Discussion): “We note though that some studies did not find evidence for neural hexasymmetry. For example, a surface EEG study with participants “navigating” through an abstract vowel space did not observe hexasymmetry in the EEG signal as a function of the participants’ movement direction through vowel space (Kaya et al., 2020). Another fMRI study did not find evidence for grid-like representations in the ventromedial prefrontal cortex while participants performed value-based decision making (Lee et al., 2021). This raises the question whether the detection of macroscopic grid-like representations is limited to some recording techniques (e.g., fMRI and iEEG but not surface EEG) and to what extent they are present in different tasks.”

      Reviewer #1, comment #3: Second, as the authors note, the conjunctive mechanism is based on the tight coupling of a narrow head direction selectivity to one of the grid axes. They compare "ideal" with "Doeller" parameters, but to me the "Doeller" ones appear rather narrower than commonly observed and, crucially, they are applied to all cells in the simulations, whereas in reality only a proportion of cells in mEC are reported to be grid cells, only a proportion of them to be conjunctive, and only some of these to be narrowly conjunctive. Further, Gerlei et al (2020) find that conjunctive grid cells may have each of their fields modulated by different head directions, a truly surprising phenomenon that, if extensive, seems to me to cast doubts on the relation between mass activity hexasymmetry and single grid cells.

      Response: We have revised the manuscript in several ways to address the different aspects of this comment.

      Firstly, we agree with the reviewer that our “Doeller” parameter for the tuning width is narrower than commonly observed. We have therefore reevaluated the concentration parameter κ_c in the ‘realistic’ case from 10 rad-2 (corresponding to a tuning width of 18o) to 4 rad-2 (corresponding to a tuning width of 29o). We chose this value by referring to Supplementary Figure 3 of Doeller et al. (2010). In their figure, the tuning curves usually cover between one sixth and one third of a circle. Since stronger head-direction tuning contributes the most to the resulting hexasymmetry, we chose a value of κ_c=4 for the tuning parameter, which corresponds to a tuning width (= half width) of 29o (full width of roughly one sixth of a circle). Regarding the coupling of the preferred head directions to the grid axes, the specific value of the jitter σc = 3 degrees that quantifies the coupling of the head-direction preference to the grid axes was extracted from the 95% confidence interval given in the third row of the Table in Supplementary Figure 5b of Doeller et al. 2010. We now better explain the origin of these values in our new Methods section “Parameter estimation” and provide an overview of all parameter values in Table 1.

      Furthermore, in response to your comment, we have revised Figure 2E to show neural hexasymmetries for a larger range of values of the jitter (σc from 0 to 30 degrees), going way beyond the values that Doeller et al. suggested. We have also added a new supplementary figure (Figure 2 – figure supplement 1) where we further extend the range of tuning widths (parameter κ_c) to 60 degrees. This provides the reader with a comprehensive understanding of what parameter values are needed to reach a particular hexasymmetry.

      Regarding your comments on the prevalence of conjunctive grid by head-direction cells, we have revised the manuscript to make it explicit that the actual percentage of conjunctive cells with the necessary properties may be low in the entorhinal cortex (first paragraph of section “A note on our choice of the values of model parameters” of the Discussion): “Empirical studies in rodents found a wide range of tuning widths among grid cells ranging from broad to narrow (Doeller et al., 2010; Sargolini et al., 2006). The percentage of conjunctive cells in the entorhinal cortex with a sufficiently narrow tuning may thus be low. Such distributions (with a proportionally small amount of narrowly tuned conjunctive cells) lead to low values in the absolute hexasymmetry. The neural hexasymmetry in this case would be driven by the subset of cells with sufficiently narrow tuning widths. If this causes the neural hexasymmetry to drop below noise levels, the statistical evaluation of this hypothesis would change.” In addition, in Figure 5, we have applied the coupling between preferred head directions and grid axes to only one third of all grid cells (parameter pc= ⅓ in Table 1), following the values reported by Boccara et al. 2010 and Sargolini et al. 2006. To strengthen the link between Figure 5 and Figure 2, we now state the hexasymmetry when using pc= ⅓ along with a ‘realistic’ tuning width and jitter for head-direction modulated grid cells in Figure 2H. Additionally, we performed new simulations where we observed a linear relationship (above the noise floor) between the proportion of conjunctive cells and the hexasymmetry. This shall help the reader understand the effect of a reduced percentage of conjunctive cells on the absolute hexasymmetry values. We have added these results as a new supplementary figure (Figure 2 – figure supplement 2).

      Finally, regarding your comment on the findings by Gerlei et al. 2020, we now reference this study in our manuscript and discuss the possible implications (second paragraph of section “A note on our choice of the values of model parameters” of the Discussion): “Additionally, while we assumed that all conjunctive grid cells maintain the same preferred head direction between different firing fields, conjunctive grid cells have also been shown to exhibit different preferred head directions in different firing fields (Gerlei et al., 2020). This could lead to hexadirectional modulation if the different preferred head directions are offset by 60o from each other, but will not give rise to hexadirectional modulation if the preferred head directions are randomly distributed. To the best of our knowledge, the distribution of preferred head directions was not quantified by Gerlei et al. (2020), thus this remains an open question.”

      Reviewer #1, comment #4: Finally, a variant of the fourth hypothesis is that the hexasymmetry might be produced by a clustering of head direction preferences across head direction cells similar to that hypothesized in the first hypothesis, but without such cells having to fire in grid patterns. If head direction selectivity is so clustered, who needs the grids? This would explain why hexasymmetry is ubiquitous, and could easily be explored computationally by, in fact, a simplification of the models considered in this study.

      Response: We fully agree with you. We now explain this possibility in the Introduction where we introduce the conjunctive grid by head-direction cell hypothesis (fourth paragraph of the Introduction) and return to it in the Discussion (section “Potential mechanisms underlying hexadirectional population signals in the entorhinal cortex”). There, we now also explain that in such a case another mechanism would be needed to ensure that the preferred head directions of head-direction cells exhibit six-fold rotational symmetry.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Reviewer #2, comment #1: Grid cells - originally discovered in single-cell recordings from the rodent entorhinal cortex, and subsequently identified in single-cell recordings from the human brain - are believed to contribute to a range of cognitive functions including spatial navigation, long-term memory function, and inferential reasoning. Following a landmark study by Doeller et al. (Nature, 2010), a plethora of human neuroimaging studies have hypothesised that grid cell population activity might also be reflected in the six-fold (or 'hexadirectional') modulation of the BOLD signal (following the six-fold rotational symmetry exhibited by individual grid cell firing patterns), or in the amplitude of oscillatory activity recorded using MEG or intracranial EEG. The mechanism by which these network-level dynamics might arise from the firing patterns of individual grid cells remains unclear, however.

      In this study, Khalid and colleagues use a combination of computational modelling and mathematical analysis to evaluate three competing hypotheses that describe how the hexadirectional modulation of population firing rates (taken as a simple proxy for the BOLD, MEG, or iEEG signal) might arise from the firing patterns of individual grid cells. They demonstrate that all three mechanisms could account for these network-level dynamics if a specific set of conditions relating to the agent's movement trajectory and the underlying properties of grid cell firing patterns are satisfied.

      The computational modelling and mathematic analyses presented here are rigorous, clearly motivated, and intuitively described. In addition, these results are important both for the interpretation of hexadirectional modulation in existing data sets and for the design of future experiments and analyses that aim to probe grid cell population activity. As such, this study is likely to have a significant impact on the field by providing a firmer theoretical basis for the interpretation of neuroimaging data. To my mind, the only weakness is the relatively limited focus on the known properties of grid cells in rodent entorhinal cortex, and the network level activity that these firing patterns might be expected to produce under each hypothesis. Strengthening the link with existing neurobiology would further enhance the importance of these results for those hoping to assay grid cell firing patterns in recordings of ensemble-level neural activity.

      Response: Thank you very much for reviewing our manuscript and your positive assessment. Following your comments, we have revised the manuscript to more closely link our simulations to known properties of grid cells in the rodent entorhinal cortex.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Reviewer #3, comment #1: This is an interesting and carefully carried out theoretical analysis of potential explanations for hexadirectional modulation of neural population activity that has been reported in the human entorhinal cortex and some other cortical regions. The previously reported hexadirectional modulation is of considerable interest as it has been proposed to be a proxy for the activation of grid cell networks. However, the extent to which this proposal is consistent with the known firing properties of grids hasn't received the attention it perhaps deserves. By comparing the predictions of three different models this study imposes constraints on possible mechanisms and generates predictions that can be tested through future experimentation.

      Overall, while the conclusions of the study are convincing, I think the usefulness to the field would be increased if null hypotheses were more carefully considered and if the authors' new metric for hexadirectional modulation (H) could be directly contrasted with previously used metrics. For example, if the effect sizes for hexadirectional modulation in the previous fMRI and EEG data could be more directly compared with those of the models here, then this could help in establishing the extent to which the experimental hexadirectional modulation stands out from path hexasymmetry and how close it comes to the striking modulation observed with the conjunctive models. It could also be helpful to consider scenarios in which hexadirectional modulation is independent of grid firing, for example perhaps with appropriate coordination of head direction cell firing.

      Response: Thanks for reviewing our manuscript and for the overall positive assessment. The new Methods section “Implementation of previously used metrics” starts with the following sentences: “We applied three previously used metrics to our framework: the Generalized Linear Model (GLM) method by Doeller et al. 2010; the GLM method with binning by Kunz et al. 2015; and the circular-linear correlation method by Maidenbaum et al. 2018.” We have created a new supplementary figure (Figure 5 – figure supplement 4) in which we compare the results from these other methods to the results of our new method. Overall, the results are highly similar, indicating that all these methods are equally suited to test for a hexadirectional modulation of neural activity.

      In section “Implementation of previously used metrics” we then explain: “In brief, in the GLM method (e.g. used in Doeller et al., 2010), the hexasymmetry is found in two steps: the orientation of the hexadirectional modulation is first estimated on the first half of the data by using the regressors and on the time-discrete fMRI activity (Equation 9), with θt being the movement direction of the subject in time step t. The amplitude of the signal is then estimated on the second half of the data using the single regressor , where . The hexasymmetry is then evaluated as .

      The GLM method with binning (e.g. used in Kunz et al., 2015) uses the same procedure as the GLM method for estimating the grid orientation in the first half of the data, but the amplitude is estimated differently on the second half by a regressor that has a value 1 if θt is aligned with a peak of the hexadirectional modulation (aligned if , modulo operator) and a value of -1 if θt is misaligned. The hexasymmetry is then calculated from the amplitude in the same way as in the GLM method.

      The circular-linear correlation method (e.g. used in Maidenbaum et al., 2018) is similar to the GLM method in that it uses the regressors β1 cos(6θ_t) and β2 on the time-discrete mean activity, but instead of using β1 and β2 to estimate the orientation of the hexadirectional modulation, the beta values are directly used to estimate the hexasymmetry using the relation .”

      For each of the three previously used metrics and our new method, we estimated the resulting hexasymmetry (new Figure 5 – figure supplement 4 in the manuscript). In the Methods section “Implementation of previously used metrics” we then continue with our explanations: “Regarding the statistical evaluation, each method evaluates the size of the neural hexasymmetry differently. Specifically, the new method developed in our manuscript compares the neural hexasymmetry to path hexasymmetry to test whether neural hexasymmetry is significantly above path hexasymmetry. For the two generalized linear model (GLM) methods, we compare the hexasymmetry to zero (using the Mann-Whitney U test) to establish significance. Hexasymmetry values can be negative in these approaches, allowing the statistical comparison against 0. Negative values occur when the estimated grid orientation from the first data half does not match the grid orientation from the second data half. Regarding the statistical evaluation of the circular-linear correlation method, we calculated a z-score by comparing each empirical observation of the hexasymmetry to hexasymmetries from a set of surrogate distributions (as in Maidenbaum et al., 2018). We then calculate a p-value by comparing the distribution of z-scores versus zero using a Mann-Whitney U test. We use the z-scores instead of the hexasymmetry for the circular-linear correlation method to match the procedure used in Maidenbaum et al. (2018). We obtained the surrogate distributions by circularly shifting the vector of movement directions relative to the time dependent vector of firing rates. For random walks, the vector is shifted by a random number drawn from a uniform distribution defined with the same length as the number of time points in the vector of movement directions. For the star-like walks and piecewise linear walks, the shift is a random integer multiplied by the number of time points in a linear segment. Circularly shifting the vector of movement directions scrambles the correlations between movement direction and neural activity while preserving their temporal structure.”

      The results of these simulations, i.e. the comparison of our new method to previously used metrics, are summarized in Figure 5 – figure supplement 4 and show qualitatively identical findings when using the different methods. We have added this information also to the manuscript in the third paragraph of section “Quantification of hexasymmetry of neural activity and trajectories” of the Methods: “Empirical (fMRI/iEEG) studies (e.g. Doeller et al., 2010; Kunz et al., 2015; Maidenbaum et al., 2018) addressed this problem of trajectories spuriously contributing to hexasymmetry by fitting a Generalized Linear Model (GLM) to the time discrete fMRI/iEEG activity. In contrast, our new approach to hexasymmetry in Equation (12) quantifies the contribution of the path to the neural hexasymmetry explicitly, and has the advantage that it allows an analytical treatment (see next section). Comparing our new method with previous methods for evaluating hexasymmetry led to qualitatively identical statistical effects (Figure 5 – figure supplement 4).” We have also added a pointer to this new supplementary figure in the caption of Figure 5 in the manuscript: “For a comparison between our method and previously used methods for evaluating hexasymmetry, see Figure 5 – figure supplement 4.”

  15. Jan 2024
    1. Another part in Squadrons and gross Bands, [ 570 ] On bold adventure to discover wide That dismal world, if any Clime perhaps Might yield them easier habitation, bend Four ways thir flying March, along the Banks Of four infernal Rivers that disgorge [ 575 ] Into the burning Lake thir baleful streams; Abhorred Styx the flood of deadly hate, Sad Acheron of sorrow, black and deep; Cocytus, nam'd of lamentation loud Heard on the ruful stream; fierce Phlegeton [ 580 ] Whose waves of torrent fire inflame with rage. Farr off from these a slow and silent stream, Lethe the River of Oblivion roules Her watrie Labyrinth, whereof who drinks, Forthwith his former state and being forgets, [ 585 ] Forgets both joy and grief, pleasure and pain. Beyond this flood a frozen Continent Lies dark and wilde, beat with perpetual storms Of Whirlwind and dire Hail, which on firm land Thaws not, but gathers heap, and ruin seems [ 590 ] Of ancient pile; all else deep snow and ice, A gulf profound as that Serbonian Bog Betwixt Damiata and Mount Casius old, Where Armies whole have sunk: the parching Air Burns frore, and cold performs th' effect of Fire. [ 595 ] Thither by harpy-footed Furies hail'd, At certain revolutions all the damn'd Are brought: and feel by turns the bitter change Of fierce extreams, extreams by change more fierce, From Beds of raging Fire to starve in Ice [ 600 ] Thir soft Ethereal warmth, and there to pine Immovable, infixt, and frozen round, Periods of time, thence hurried back to fire. They ferry over this Lethean Sound Both to and fro, thir sorrow to augment, [ 605 ] And wish and struggle, as they pass, to reach The tempting stream, with one small drop to loose In sweet forgetfulness all pain and woe, All in one moment, and so neer the brink; But fate withstands, and to oppose th' attempt [ 610 ] Medusa with Gorgonian terror guards The Ford, and of it self the water flies All taste of living wight, as once it fled The lip of Tantalus. Thus roving on In confus'd march forlorn, th' adventrous Bands [ 615 ] With shuddring horror pale, and eyes agast View'd first thir lamentable lot, and found No rest: through many a dark and drearie Vaile They pass'd, and many a Region dolorous, O'er many a Frozen, many a fierie Alpe, [ 620 ] Rocks, Caves, Lakes, Fens, Bogs, Dens, and shades of death, A Universe of death, which God by curse Created evil, for evil only good, Where all life dies, death lives, and Nature breeds, Perverse, all monstrous, all prodigious things, [ 625 ] Abominable, inutterable, and worse Then Fables yet have feign'd, or fear conceiv'd, Gorgons and Hydra's, and Chimera's dire.

      In lines 520-628 of book 2, another group goes to find a better climate for them to live where four very dark and dismal rivers empty into a lake: Styx, Acheron, Cocytus and Phlegeton. Then off to the side is a smaller stream: Lethe. It goes on to say that the group is horrified at what they see, giving essentially a description of the underworld and all the trapped souls found there, “a universe of death” (625) and “perverse, all monstrous, all prodigious things, Abominable, inutterable” (625). It made a reference to Fables and how this place comes nowhere close to anything you could imagine.

  16. Oct 2023
    1. Thank you. If you see dear Mrs. Equitone, Tell her I bring the horoscope myself: One must be so careful these days.     Unreal City, Under the brown fog of a winter dawn, A crowd flowed over London Bridge, so many, I had not thought death had undone so many. Sighs, short and infrequent, were exhaled, And each man fixed his eyes before his feet. Flowed up the hill and down King William Street, To where Saint Mary Woolnoth kept the hours With a dead sound on the final stroke of nine. There I saw one I knew, and stopped him, crying: “Stetson! “You who were with me in the ships at Mylae! “That corpse you planted last year in your garden, “Has it begun to sprout? Will it bloom this year? “Or has the sudden frost disturbed its bed? “Oh keep the Dog far hence, that’s friend to men, “Or with his nails he’ll dig it up again! “You! hypocrite lecteur!—mon semblable,—mon frère!”                 II. A Game of Chess   The Chair she sat in, like a burnished throne, Glowed on the marble, where the glass Held up by standards wrought with fruited vines From which a golden Cupidon peeped out (Another hid his eyes behind his wing) Doubled the flames of sevenbranched candelabra Reflecting light upon the table as The glitter of her jewels rose to meet it, From satin cases poured in rich profusion; In vials of ivory and coloured glass Unstoppered, lurked her strange synthetic perfumes, Unguent, powdered, or liquid—troubled, confused And drowned the sense in odours; stirred by the air That freshened from the window, these ascended In fattening the prolonged candle-flames, Flung their smoke into the laquearia, Stirring the pattern on the coffered ceiling. Huge sea-wood fed with copper Burned green and orange, framed by the coloured stone, In which sad light a carvéd dolphin swam. Above the antique mantel was displayed As though a window gave upon the sylvan scene The change of Philomel, by the barbarous king So rudely forced; yet there the nightingale Filled all the desert with inviolable voice And still she cried, and still the world pursues, “Jug Jug” to dirty ears. And other withered stumps of time Were told upon the walls; staring forms Leaned out, leaning, hushing the room enclosed. Footsteps shuffled on the stair. Under the firelight, under the brush, her hair Spread out in fiery points Glowed into words, then would be savagely still.     “My nerves are bad tonight. Yes, bad. Stay with me. “Speak to me. Why do you never speak. Speak.   “What are you thinking of? What thinking? What? “I never know what you are thinking. Think.”     I think we are in rats’ alley Where the dead men lost their bones.     “What is that noise?”                           The wind under the door. “What is that noise now? What is the wind doing?”                            Nothing again nothing.                                                         “Do “You know nothing? Do you see nothing? Do you remember “Nothing?”          I remember Those are pearls that were his eyes. “Are you alive, or not? Is there nothing in your head?”                                                                            But O O O O that Shakespeherian Rag— It’s so elegant So intelligent “What shall I do now? What shall I do?” “I shall rush out as I am, and walk the street “With my hair down, so. What shall we do tomorrow? “What shall we ever do?”                                                The hot water at ten. And if it rains, a closed car at four. And we shall play a game of chess, Pressing lidless eyes and waiting for a knock upon the door.     When Lil’s husband got demobbed, I said— I didn’t mince my words, I said to her myself, HURRY UP PLEASE ITS TIME Now Albert’s coming back, make yourself a bit smart. He’ll want to know what you done with that money he gave you To get yourself some teeth. He did, I was there. You have them all out, Lil, and get a nice set, He said, I swear, I can’t bear to look at you. And no more can’t I, I said, and think of poor Albert, He’s been in the army four years, he wants a good time, And if you don’t give it him, there’s others will, I said. Oh is there, she said. Something o’ that, I said. Then I’ll know who to thank, she said, and give me a straight look. HURRY UP PLEASE ITS TIME If you don’t like it you can get on with it, I said. Others can pick and choose if you can’t. But if Albert makes off, it won’t be for lack of telling. You ought to be ashamed, I said, to look so antique. (And her only thirty-one.) I can’t help it, she said, pulling a long face, It’s them pills I took, to bring it off, she said. (She’s had five already, and nearly died of young George.) The chemist said it would be all right, but I’ve never been the same. You are a proper fool, I said. Well, if Albert won’t leave you alone, there it is, I said, What you get married for if you don’t want children? HURRY UP PLEASE ITS TIME Well, that Sunday Albert was home, they had a hot gammon, And they asked me in to dinner, to get the beauty of it hot— HURRY UP PLEASE ITS TIME HURRY UP PLEASE ITS TIME Goonight Bill. Goonight Lou. Goonight May. Goonight. Ta ta. Goonight. Goonight. Good night, ladies, good night, sweet ladies, good night, good night.                 III. The Fire Sermon     The river’s tent is broken: the last fingers of leaf Clutch and sink into the wet bank. The wind Crosses the brown land, unheard. The nymphs are departed. Sweet Thames, run softly, till I end my song. The river bears no empty bottles, sandwich papers, Silk handkerchiefs, cardboard boxes, cigarette ends Or other testimony of summer nights. The nymphs are departed. And their friends, the loitering heirs of city directors; Departed, have left no addresses. By the waters of Leman I sat down and wept . . . Sweet Thames, run softly till I end my song, Sweet Thames, run softly, for I speak not loud or long. But at my back in a cold blast I hear The rattle of the bones, and chuckle spread from ear to ear.   A rat crept softly through the vegetation Dragging its slimy belly on the bank While I was fishing in the dull canal On a winter evening round behind the gashouse Musing upon the king my brother’s wreck And on the king my father’s death before him. White bodies naked on the low damp ground And bones cast in a little low dry garret, Rattled by the rat’s foot only, year to year. But at my back from time to time I hear The sound of horns and motors, which shall bring Sweeney to Mrs. Porter in the spring. O the moon shone bright on Mrs. Porter And on her daughter They wash their feet in soda water Et O ces voix d’enfants, chantant dans la coupole!   Twit twit twit Jug jug jug jug jug jug So rudely forc’d. Tereu   Unreal City Under the brown fog of a winter noon Mr. Eugenides, the Smyrna merchant Unshaven, with a pocket full of currants C.i.f. London: documents at sight, Asked me in demotic French To luncheon at the Cannon Street Hotel Followed by a weekend at the Metropole.   At the violet hour, when the eyes and back Turn upward from the desk, when the human engine waits Like a taxi throbbing waiting, I Tiresias, though blind, throbbing between two lives, Old man with wrinkled female breasts, can see At the violet hour, the evening hour that strives Homeward, and brings the sailor home from sea, The typist home at teatime, clears her breakfast, lights Her stove, and lays out food in tins. Out of the window perilously spread Her drying combinations touched by the sun’s last rays, On the divan are piled (at night her bed) Stockings, slippers, camisoles, and stays. I Tiresias, old man with wrinkled dugs Perceived the scene, and foretold the rest— I too awaited the expected guest. He, the young man carbuncular, arrives, A small house agent’s clerk, with one bold stare, One of the low on whom assurance sits As a silk hat on a Bradford millionaire. The time is now propitious, as he guesses, The meal is ended, she is bored and tired, Endeavours to engage her in caresses Which still are unreproved, if undesired. Flushed and decided, he assaults at once; Exploring hands encounter no defence; His vanity requires no response, And makes a welcome of indifference. (And I Tiresias have foresuffered all Enacted on this same divan or bed; I who have sat by Thebes below the wall And walked among the lowest of the dead.) Bestows one final patronising kiss, And gropes his way, finding the stairs unlit . . .   She turns and looks a moment in the glass, Hardly aware of her departed lover; Her brain allows one half-formed thought to pass: “Well now that’s done: and I’m glad it’s over.” When lovely woman stoops to folly and Paces about her room again, alone, She smoothes her hair with automatic hand, And puts a record on the gramophone.   “This music crept by me upon the waters” And along the Strand, up Queen Victoria Street. O City city, I can sometimes hear Beside a public bar in Lower Thames Street, The pleasant whining of a mandoline And a clatter and a chatter from within Where fishmen lounge at noon: where the walls Of Magnus Martyr hold Inexplicable splendour of Ionian white and gold.                  The river sweats                Oil and tar                The barges drift                With the turning tide                Red sails                Wide                To leeward, swing on the heavy spar.                The barges wash                Drifting logs                Down Greenwich reach                Past the Isle of Dogs.                                  Weialala leia                                  Wallala leialala                  Elizabeth and Leicester                Beating oars                The stern was formed                A gilded shell                Red and gold                The brisk swell                Rippled both shores                Southwest wind                Carried down stream                The peal of bells                White towers                                 Weialala leia                                 Wallala leialala   “Trams and dusty trees. Highbury bore me. Richmond and Kew Undid me. By Richmond I raised my knees Supine on the floor of a narrow canoe.”   “My feet are at Moorgate, and my heart Under my feet. After the event He wept. He promised a ‘new start.’ I made no comment. What should I resent?”   “On Margate Sands. I can connect Nothing with nothing. The broken fingernails of dirty hands. My people humble people who expect Nothing.”                        la la   To Carthage then I came   Burning burning burning burning O Lord Thou pluckest me out O Lord Thou pluckest   burning                 IV. Death by Water   Phlebas the Phoenician, a fortnight dead, Forgot the cry of gulls, and the deep sea swell And the profit and loss.                                    A current under sea Picked his bones in whispers. As he rose and fell He passed the stages of his age and youth Entering the whirlpool.                                    Gentile or Jew O you who turn the wheel and look to windward, Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.                 V. What the Thunder Said     After the torchlight red on sweaty faces After the frosty silence in the gardens After the agony in stony places The shouting and the crying Prison and palace and reverberation Of thunder of spring over distant mountains He who was living is now dead We who were living are now dying With a little patience   Here is no water but only rock Rock and no water and the sandy road The road winding above among the mountains Which are mountains of rock without water If there were water we should stop and drink Amongst the rock one cannot stop or think Sweat is dry and feet are in the sand If there were only water amongst the rock Dead mountain mouth of carious teeth that cannot spit Here one can neither stand nor lie nor sit There is not even silence in the mountains But dry sterile thunder without rain There is not even solitude in the mountains But red sullen faces sneer and snarl From doors of mudcracked houses                                       If there were water    And no rock    If there were rock    And also water    And water    A spring    A pool among the rock    If there were the sound of water only    Not the cicada    And dry grass singing    But sound of water over a rock    Where the hermit-thrush sings in the pine trees    Drip drop drip drop drop drop drop    But there is no water   Who is the third who walks always beside you? When I count, there are only you and I together But when I look ahead up the white road There is always another one walking beside you Gliding wrapt in a brown mantle, hooded I do not know whether a man or a woman —But who is that on the other side of you?   What is that sound high in the air Murmur of maternal lamentation Who are those hooded hordes swarming Over endless plains, stumbling in cracked earth Ringed by the flat horizon only What is the city over the mountains Cracks and reforms and bursts in the violet air Falling towers Jerusalem Athens Alexandria Vienna London Unreal   A woman drew her long black hair out tight And fiddled whisper music on those strings And bats with baby faces in the violet light Whistled, and beat their wings And crawled head downward down a blackened wall And upside down in air were towers Tolling reminiscent bells, that kept the hours And voices singing out of empty cisterns and exhausted wells.   In this decayed hole among the mountains In the faint moonlight, the grass is singing Over the tumbled graves, about the chapel There is the empty chapel, only the wind’s home. It has no windows, and the door swings, Dry bones can harm no one. Only a cock stood on the rooftree Co co rico co co rico In a flash of lightning. Then a damp gust Bringing rain   Ganga was sunken, and the limp leaves Waited for rain, while the black clouds Gathered far distant, over Himavant. The jungle crouched, humped in silence. Then spoke the thunder DA Datta: what have we given? My friend, blood shaking my heart The awful daring of a moment’s surrender Which an age of prudence can never retract By this, and this only, we have existed Which is not to be found in our obituaries Or in memories draped by the beneficent spider Or under seals broken by the lean solicitor In our empty rooms DA Dayadhvam: I have heard the key Turn in the door once and turn once only We think of the key, each in his prison Thinking of the key, each confirms a prison Only at nightfall, aethereal rumours Revive for a moment a broken Coriolanus DA Damyata: The boat responded Gaily, to the hand expert with sail and oar The sea was calm, your heart would have responded Gaily, when invited, beating obedient To controlling hands                                     I sat upon the shore Fishing, with the arid plain behind me Shall I at least set my lands in order? London Bridge is falling down falling down falling down Poi s’ascose nel foco che gli affina Quando fiam uti chelidon—O swallow swallow Le Prince d’Aquitaine à la tour abolie These fragments I have shored against my ruins Why then Ile fit you. Hieronymo’s mad againe. Datta. Dayadhvam. Damyata.                   Shantih     shantih     shantih Archives October 2023 September 2023 August 2023 Categories Uncategorized Course Info Mystery Text Assignment (Due: 9/26) Syllabus General Info How to annotate Texts Texts Alain Locke Alice Dunbar-Nelson Allen Ginsberg, “Howl” (1956) Charlotte Perkins Gilman, “The Yellow Wallpaper” (1892) Claude McKay Edgar Lee Masters Edna St. Vincent Millay Edwin Arlington Robinson Ernest Hemingway, In Our Time Ezra Pound Georgia Douglas Johnson Gertrude Stein Gwendolyn B. Bennett Helene Johnson Henry Adams, “The Dynamo and the Virgin” John Dos Passos, “The Body of an American” Langston Hughes Langston Hughes, “The Negro Artist and the Racial Mountain” (1926) Lawrence Ferlinghetti Paul Laurence Dunbar Philip Levine, “They Feed They Lion” (1972) Radical Poetry Robert Frost Sterling Brown T.S. Eliot “The Waste Land” (1922) W.E.B. Du Bois, “Of Our Spiritual Strivings” William Carlos Williams

      Has this entire poem been the conversation of the speaker receiving a taro card reading?

  17. May 2023
    1. I’ve had debates with friends where they advanced the notion that the world’s degraded state — climate change, regular school shootings, political strife — might be a primary reason younger generations are so miserable. Or, to go with an angle I find more plausible: The news isn’t necessarily worse, but the internet, with its inherent negativity bias, spins things as bleaker than ever.I think that’s exactly it. In Generations, I spent a lot of time on this, because it was a theme that just came up over and over and over — this really pervasive negativity, sometimes crossing over into denialism, especially online. And I think you have to take a step back from that and ask the question: Is 2023 really worse than boomers getting drafted into Vietnam? And I’ll keep going. Is it really worse than the ’80s when we thought the USSR was going to drop the bomb any second and the world was going to end? Is it really worse than millennials graduating into the Great Recession? To be fair, the late ’90s, when I was coming of age, was pretty untroubled in a world-on-fire sense.There are times that are better and worse, but every time has its challenges. And are the challenges we face right now really worse than the challenges of previous eras? I think that’s an extremely subjective question.

      Yeah, it is a subjective question. Part of the subjectiveness: values make a difference. If no one gives a shit about climate change and species extinction, then I bet everything looks rosier. So it's easier to blame people for caring

  18. Oct 2022
    1. Rollercoasters have triggered some new iPhones to make emergency calls.According to the Wall Street Journal, at one US amusement park the plummeting rides activated the phones' crash detection system.Apple told the newspaper the technology was intended to provide "peace of mind" and would continue to improve over time.
      1. trigger /ˈtrɪɡər/ v. 触发,引发,引起(cause) · trigger the fire alarm 触发火警 · trigger a fight 引发一场斗争

      2. emergency /ɪˈmɜːrdʒ(ə)nsi/ n. 紧急(情况),突发(事件) · emergency room 急诊室 · emergency contact 紧急联系人 · emergency call 紧急呼叫

      3. amusement /əˈmjuːzmənt/ n. 娱乐,消遣 · amusement park 主题乐园,游乐园

      4. plummet /ˈplʌmɪt/ v. 垂直高速下落(to drop straight down at high speed)

      5. activate /ˈæktɪveɪt/ v. 触发,启动(trigger)

      6. improve /ɪmˈpruːv/ vt. 改进 vi. 朝着更好的方向发展 · My English improves. 我的英语越来越好。
    1. Drip drop drip drop drop drop drop

      This line reminds me of an earlier line in TWL, which was 308, when Eliot references the Buddha’s Fire Sermon, and writes “burning burning burning burning.” Physically, the two lines have similar repetition styles. In terms of their place in the poem, however, the significance that I see is the differing natural phenomena of fire and water. The Fire Sermon seeks to explain what the sensation of enlightenment and inner peace can feel, after letting go of all physical sensations. The water heater is dripping as part of the “water-dripping song” from Turdus aonalaschkae pallasii, which is a hermit-thrush in Quebec. This reference is a little practical for Eliot, considering his past attachment to works of literary or anthropological significance. In the footnote, Eliot quotes Chapman’s writing that “Its notes are not remarkable for variety or volume, but in purity and sweetness of tone and exquisite modulation they are unequaled.” The sheer language of this quote brings me back to Buddhism, for the specific words of purity, sweetness, tone, and modulation all construct a very peaceful and zen atmosphere. In this way, fire and water somehow connect, with both of them bringing humans inner peace.

  19. Sep 2022
    1. SyrupArcade Sep 23, 2022 | 4:30 PM EDT Sony confirms Marvel’s Spider-Man: Miles Morales PC port is coming in Fall 2022 Sep 23, 2022 | 11:38 AM EDT Hacker behind GTA VI hack reportedly 17-year-old from London Sep 23, 2022 | 8:04 AM EDT Ed Sheeran teams up with The Pokémon Company on ‘Celestial’ song Sep 22, 2022 | 6:44 PM EDT Valve temporarily pausing Steam Deck order emails in Canada due to backlog Sep 21, 2022 | 9:03 PM EDT Fanatical offering 14 Star Wars PC games for under $25 Sep 21, 2022 | 5:55 PM EDT Twitch cracks down on gambling streams, shifts monetization Gaming Sep 23, 2022 | 4:30 PM EDT Sony confirms Marvel’s Spider-Man: Miles Morales PC port is coming in Fall 2022 Sep 23, 2022 | 11:38 AM EDT Hacker behind GTA VI hack reportedly 17-year-old from London Sep 23, 2022 | 8:04 AM EDT Ed Sheeran teams up with The Pokémon Company on ‘Celestial’ song Sep 22, 2022 | 6:44 PM EDT Valve temporarily pausing Steam Deck order emails in Canada due to backlog Sep 21, 2022 | 9:03 PM EDT Fanatical offering 14 Star Wars PC games for under $25 Sep 21, 2022 | 5:55 PM EDT Twitch cracks down on gambling streams, shifts monetization News Sep 23, 2022 | 5:30 PM EDT Apple Music replaces Pepsi as Super Bowl Halftime Show sponsor Sep 23, 2022 | 4:30 PM EDT Sony confirms Marvel’s Spider-Man: Miles Morales PC port is coming in Fall 2022 Sep 23, 2022 | 4:23 PM EDT Fitbit users will need to sign in with a Google account starting in 2023 Sep 23, 2022 | 4:04 PM EDT WhatsApp Beta adds multi-device support for Android tablets Sep 23, 2022 | 3:38 PM EDT Save on smart lights with Best Buy’s Top Deals of the week Sep 23, 2022 | 3:29 PM EDT Bell asks CRTC to review $7.5 million fine stemming from telephone pole dispute with Vidéotron Carriers Sep 23, 2022 | 3:29 PM EDT Bell asks CRTC to review $7.5 million fine stemming from telephone pole dispute with Vidéotron Sep 22, 2022 | 5:02 PM EDT Xplore now offers 100Mbps download speeds to 124 rural New Brunswick communities Sep 21, 2022 | 6:39 PM EDT Here are the changes to Canadian mobile rate plans this week [September 22-28] Sep 20, 2022 | 3:34 PM EDT SpaceX’s Starlink to gain more ground in Canada later this year Sep 20, 2022 | 12:18 PM EDT ISED denies request to transfer Telus Xplore Mobile’s spectrum Sep 16, 2022 | 4:35 PM EDT Telus emails customers about incoming credit card fee before CRTC decision Smartphones Sep 22, 2022 | 4:29 PM EDT Apple’s iOS 16.0.2 update fixes camera shake and copy and paste permission issue Sep 22, 2022 | 3:45 PM EDT iPhone 14 Pro features hidden setting enabling black-and-white always-on display Sep 22, 2022 | 2:55 PM EDT Microsoft plans to ‘update and innovate’ Surface Duo form factor Sep 22, 2022 | 1:15 PM EDT Pixel 7, 7 Pro leak suggests same pricing as last-gen Pixel flagship Sep 22, 2022 | 11:10 AM EDT Front of Pixel 7 Pro shows up in official Google render for first time Sep 21, 2022 | 2:06 PM EDT Apple likely ignored keyboard haptics for years due to battery concerns Tablets & Computers Sep 23, 2022 | 12:11 PM EDT Google’s upcoming Pixel Tablet will reportedly feature an 11-inch display Sep 22, 2022 | 11:39 AM EDT Steam to soon become more accessible to ChromeOS gamers Sep 21, 2022 | 3:43 PM EDT Framework, Google partner on modular Chromebook Sep 21, 2022 | 1:42 PM EDT Microsoft announces October 12 Surface event following leaks Sep 21, 2022 | 12:14 PM EDT Surface hardware, pricing rumours emerge ahead of possible October event Sep 21, 2022 | 9:00 AM EDT Amazon unveils a ‘thinner, lighter and faster’ Fire HD 8 tablet Apps & Software Sep 23, 2022 | 4:23 PM EDT Fitbit users will need to sign in with a Google account starting in 2023 Sep 23, 2022 | 4:04 PM EDT WhatsApp Beta adds multi-device support for Android tablets Sep 22, 2022 | 4:36 PM EDT This Android app brings the ‘Dynamic Island’ to Android Sep 22, 2022 | 2:50 PM EDT A ‘Tonight Show’ experience is live in Fortnite Sep 22, 2022 | 2:44 PM EDT Affirm launches in Canada with Amazon partnership Sep 22, 2022 | 1:59 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      There is no visual indication of which button I am on when using just my keyboard to navigate. I've seen other websites have a box around the link / word that I am on.

  20. Aug 2022
    1. George. Zoe, I love you none the less; this knowledge brings no revolt to my heart, and I can overcome the obstacle.

      It's so interesting that this 1/8 drop of slave blood that Zoe has is viewed to differently by the two men. George is frankly quite forward thinking in not letting this matter to him one bit, and doesn't fire her any differently. HIs affection is pure and sweet this confession doesn't deter him. M'Closky on the other hand views this fraction of blackness as a means of control, focusing more on this than the 7/8 of a free white person others see her as. His infatuation is greedy, controlling, and possessive. His mindset of her heritage is so old school and more normal to the time, as he can get what he wants with no regard to her. This one drop is what's going to allow him to possibly literally own her, while it only emphasizes to George that this is something he would/could never do and doesn't even really acknowledge.

  21. Apr 2022
    1. Note: This rebuttal was posted by the corresponding author to Review Commons. Content has not been altered except for formatting.

      Learn more at Review Commons


      Reply to the reviewers

      Major comments:

      Are the key conclusions convincing?

      We discuss 4 key conclusions.

      __# 1 __A PRC of the segmentation clock was constructed.

      Although the authors have produced an interesting phase map, the regulation function F(\phi) of the circle map does not give the phase response curve (PRC) (Hoppensteadt & Keener 1982, Guevara & Glass 1982). This holds only when the system is stimulated with very short pulses (ideally Dirac delta), but the experimental pulses here are a quarter of the intrinsic period.

      There are several definitions of the PRC (Dirac pulses PRCs, linear PRCs, etc.). We use the general definition from Izhikievich, 2007: “In contrast to the common folklore, the function PRC (θ) can be measured for an arbitrary stimulus, not necessarily weak or brief. The only caveat is that to measure the new phase of oscillation perturbed by a stimulus, we must wait long enough for transients to subside“.

      The corresponding equation from Izhikievich (section 10.1.3) is

      PRC(θ)= θ_new-θ

      which is equivalent to our Equation 1.

      Hence, the key assumption we make is that after perturbing the system, we are back on the limit cycle as pointed out by Izhikievich. We think this is a reasonable assumption, because the perturbation we impose is relatively weak, despite pulsing for almost one quarter of the intrinsic period. The concentrations of DAPT we used in this current study are just enough to elicit a measurable response, and further lowering the concentration does not result in entrainment within our experiment time (0.5uM, Figure S7B in submitted version of the manuscript). Additionally, we previously reported that periodic pulsing with 2uM DAPT did not result in change of the Notch signaling activity with respect to control samples (Sonnen et al., 2018). Along similar lines, the DAPT drug concentrations we used are much lower compared to what has been used in previous studies aiming to perturb signaling levels, e.g. 100uM and 50uM used in study of segmentation clock in zebrafish embryos (Özbudak and Lewis, 2008 and Liao et al., 2016, respectively), and 25uM used in study of the segmentation clock in mouse PSM cells (Hubaud et al., 2017). Combined, we reason that we apply weak perturbations that allow to extract the PRC of the segmentation clock during entrainment. Additional evidence that indeed we have revealed a meaningful PRC is provided below, please see our response to point #3.

      __# 2 __Furthermore, in eq. 1 T_ext must be the winding number, and the modulus must be in units of

      phase, either one or two pi, for the circle map to be correct. Thus, calling the measured response of the system a PRC is not convincing.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. We indeed rescaled everything to express the PRC in units of phase. We made this more explicit and updated equations throughout the text.

      __# 3 __The system is being entrained. Technically, It would also be easier to get the stroboscopic maps

      in the quasi-periodic regime since all the points in the circle will be sampled. Since no quasi-periodic response was demonstrated, the claim of entrainment is not convincing.

      While, in principle, PRC can be indeed obtained from responses in the “quasi-periodic” regime, such an approach is, in practice, challenging due to the intrinsic noise. The closest approximation to this is the phase response after the first pulse, that we reproduce below and compare to our inferred PRC, where we indeed clearly see a high noise level. Nevertheless, also the PRC based on the 1st pulse is in agreement with the PRC we derived from the entrainment data.

      In the entrained regime, one can get a much more reliable estimate of the phase response despite the noise. The level of noise in the stroboscopic map lowers as the samples approach entrainment (Figure S12), and the entrainment phase itself is a reliable statistical quantity that can be used to infer regions of the PRC as the detuning is varied.

      In addition, and maybe even more importantly, we identify several key features characteristics of entrainment, such as the change of entrainment phase as a function of detuning (Figure 7, Figure S6-S7 in submitted version of the manuscript) and the dependency of the time to entrainment as a function of initial phase (Figure 6). While additional features can be linked, in theory, with entrainment, i.e. period-doubling, higher harmonics (Figure 5), quasi-periodicity, we do not agree with the reviewer that all of these need, or in fact, can be found in the experimental data, in particular because of the influence of the noise. Conversely the positive experimental evidence that we provide for the presence of entrainment, combined with the theoretical framework we develop, justifies, in our view, the conclusions we make.

      __# 4 __The response of the system to external pulses is compatible with a SNIC. This is compatible, but

      it is equally compatible with other explanations. Assuming that the PRC is the same as the regulation function F(\phi), the PRC in Kotani 2012 (PRL 2012 fig. 3C) would be a similar shape as that shown by the authors. Similar models to that in Kotani et al., have been studied, but a SNIC has not been found (an der Heiden & Mackey 1982). It is relatively straightforward to construct a phenomenological model with a SNIC, but having underlying biological insight is not guaranteed. No argument for choosing a SNIC is given, so this emphasis of the paper is not convincing.

      It is true that the mapping of PRCs to oscillators is undetermined, in the sense that many systems could potentially give rise to similar PRCs. That said, there is value in parsimonious models, which often generalize very well despite their simplicity. This explains why in neuroscience, constant sign PRCs are generally associated with SNIC. There is a mathematical reason for this : 1-D oscillators with resetting (such as the quadratic fire-and-integrate model) are the simplest models displaying constant sign PRCs, and are the “normal” form for SNICs. In other words, SNIC bifurcations are among the simplest ones compatible with constant sign PRCs, and we think it is informative to point this out. In our manuscript, we go one step further by actually fitting the experimental PRC with a simple, analytical model that allows us to compute Arnold tongue for any values of the perturbation (contrary to more complex models).

      Other models such as Kotani 2012 can display similar PRC shapes, but they are of mathematically higher complexity, and furthermore it is not clear how such systems might behave when entrained. For instance that model in particular uses delayed differential equations, and as such contains long term couplings, so that a perturbation might have effects over many cycles, which is not consistent with the hypothesis we here make of a relatively rapid return to the limit cycle. Furthermore, for more complex models, PRCs are analytical only in the linear regime, while our model is analytical for all perturbations. That said, we agree that other types of oscillators can be associated with constant sign PRCs, and we have given more details in this part, in particular we better emphasize the Class I vs Class II oscillators as a way to broaden our discussion on PRC, and emphasize the “infinite period” bifurcation category which is more intuitive and further includes saddle node homoclinic bifurcations.

      __# 5 __The work demonstrates coarse graining of complex systems.

      This conclusion is correct, but coarse graining theory-driven analysis and control of dynamical systems has been established for many years. What is new here is that it is applied specifically to the in vitro culture system of the mouse segmentation clock.

      We agree it is new to successfully apply coarse-graining analysis and, importantly, control, to the in vitro culture system of the mouse segmentation clock. We also agree that such an approach has been pioneered and established for many years, especially in (theoretical) physics, but indeed, the key question is whether and how this can be applied to complex biological systems. Insights coming from theoretical considerations on idealized physical systems might not necessarily apply to biology, as already pointed out by Winfree.

      There are still very few examples in biology with coarse graining similar to what we do here. We think there is immense value in demonstrating that quantitative insights, and control of the biological systems, can be obtained without precise knowledge of molecular details, which is still counter-intuitive to many biologists. In this sense, we think our report will be of interest to both colleagues within the field of the segmentation clock and also to anyone interested to in the question, how theory and physics guided approaches can enable novel insight into biological complexity.

      Should the authors qualify some of their claims as preliminary or speculative, or remove them altogether?

      Following on the points above, each of these needs to be corrected or re-done, and/or the conclusions need to be modified accordingly.

      We have modified the manuscript in response to all those points.

      # 6 Would additional experiments be essential to support the claims of the paper? Request additional experiments only where necessary for the paper as it is, and do not ask authors to open new lines of experimentation. If the authors wish to make the strong claim of determining a true PRC, Dirac delta-like perturbation needs to be applied, or approximated by short time duration pulses compared to the intrinsic period.

      Please refer to our response to point #1 and #3..

      # 7 *Are the suggested experiments realistic in terms of time and resources? It would help if you could *

      add an estimated cost and time investment for substantial experiments.

      It's not clear to this reviewer if it is feasible to deliver a very short pulse and record a response. But this may not be relevant, see above.

      Please refer to our response to point #1 and #3 .

      Are the data and the methods presented in such a way that they can be reproduced?

      Yes.

      Are the experiments adequately replicated and statistical analysis adequate?

      Yes.

      Minor comments:

      Specific experimental issues that are easily addressable.

      No issues.

      Are prior studies referenced appropriately?

      Yes.

      # 8 Are the text and figures clear and accurate?

      Figure 1D illustrates how a PRC should be obtained, but doesn't show the experimental protocol applied in the paper.

      Figure 1D is a general introduction on the phase description of oscillators and phase response. It demonstrates how a perturbation can change the phase and is not supposed to represent the experimental protocol. We describe how data are analyzed and how phases are extracted in Supplementary Note 1.

      __# 9 __In Figure 5B, 10 uM DAPT, the traces are already synchronized before the pulse train starts,

      which makes the subsequent behavior difficult to interpret.

      It appears here that by chance, the samples were already almost synchronized. We notice however that the establishment of a stable rhythm with the pulses (which here is not a multiple of the natural period) supports entrainment, and is already evident when looking at the timeseries with respect to the perturbation. The temporal evolution of the instantaneous period further confirms this, showing a change in period close to ½ zeitgeber period (which is very different from the natural period of ~140 mins). This also relates to point #35, in reply to both comments we have further expanded this figure to better show the 2:1 entrainment, adding statistics on the measured period and period evolution for a zeitgeber period of 300 mins.

      # 10 Do you have suggestions that would help the authors improve the presentation of their data and Conclusions? The text includes several paragraphs reviewing broad principles of coarse graining and making general conclusions. This is confusing, because, as mentioned above, there is no new general advance in this paper. The interesting contributions here are specific to the applications to the segmentation clock, and the text should be focused on this aspect.

      As commented above for #3 , we respectfully disagree that there is no “new general advance” in this paper. It is far from obvious that a complex ensemble of coupled oscillators implicated in embryonic development would be amenable to such coarse-graining theory. Of note, we still do not have a full understanding of neither the core oscillators in individual cells, nor what slows these down and eventually stops the oscillations, and multiple recent works suggest that both phenomena are under transient nonlinear control (e.g. our own work in Lauschke 2013). It is remarkable that despite this lack of detailed mechanistic insight, general entrainment theory can be applied to the segmentation process at the tissue level. We further show that classical entrainment theory alone is not sufficient to account for the experimental findings. Specifically, we need to account for a period change that we interpret as an internal feedback, an insight that would be impossible without our coarse-graining approach. While the results might of course be specific to the segmentation process, we think our approach motivated by coarse-graining theory and leading to new insights into the process is of general interest. We tried to make these points explicit in our conclusion.

      Reviewer #1 (Significance (Required)):

      Describe the nature and significance of the advance (e.g. conceptual, technical, clinical) for the field.

      Description of the complex mouse segmentation clock in terms of a simple model and its PRC is an interesting, original and non-trivial result. The proposal that the segmentation clock is close to a SNIC bifurcation provides a consistent dynamical explanation of slowing behavior that has been recognized for some time, but not fully understood. This proposal also raises a hypothesis about the behavior of the underlying molecular regulatory networks, which may be tested in the future. The increase or decrease of the intrinsic period due to the zeitgeber period is not expected from theory, pointing to structures in internal biochemical feedback loops, an idea which again may be tested in the future. Also surprising from a theoretical perspective, the spatial gradient of period in the system persisted after entrainment. Although the categorization of the generic behavior is interesting, by its nature there is little from this that might give a typical developmental biologist any conclusions about pathways or molecules. The successes and limits of the theoretical description do nevertheless focus future attention on interesting behaviors.

      # 11 Place the work in the context of the existing literature (provide references, where appropriate).

      Such an analysis of the segmentation clock is based strongly on the experimental system and results in Sonnen et al., 2018, and goes well beyond it in terms of the dynamical analysis. It provisionally categorizes the mouse segmentation clock as a Class I excitable system, allowing its dynamics at a coarse grained level to be compared to other oscillatory systems. In this aspect of simplification, it is similar to approach of Riedel-Kruse et al., 2007 who used a mean-field model of oscillator coupling to explain the synchrony dynamics observed in the zebrafish segmentation clock in response to blockade of coupling pathways, thereby allowing a high-level comparison to other synchronizing systems.

      It is interesting the reviewer sees similarities with the work of Riedel-Kruse et al, which uses a mean-field variable Z that corresponds to a classical approach, as described in Pikovsky’s textbook, to quantify synchronization of oscillators. In our view, while of course we work in the same context of coupled oscillators in the PSM, our approach based on perturbing and monitoring the system’s PRC in real-time provides a novel strategy to gain insight. This is evidenced by the fact that our quantifications of synchronization and insight into the PRC is the basis to exert precise control of the pace and rhythm of segmentation.

      State what audience might be interested in and influenced by the reported findings.

      Developmental biologists, biophysicists

      Define your field of expertise with a few keywords to help the authors contextualize your point of view. Indicate if there are any parts of the paper that you do not have sufficient expertise to evaluate.

      Developmental biology, somitogenesis, dynamical systems theory, biophysics, cell signaling


      Reviewer #2 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      Summary: This is a beautifully elegant study that tests how previously published theoretical predictions about entraining nonlinear oscillators applies to a biological oscillator, the segmentation clock. The authors use a combination of state of the art experimental techniques, signal processing and analytical theory to reach a series of interesting and novel conclusions.

      They show that the segmentation clock period can be entrained through Notch inhibitor (DAPT) pulses acting as an external clock (referred to as zeitgeber) using a previously developed and sophisticated microfluidic perfusion system. Pulsing DAPT every 120 to 180min can change the internal clock period while entrainment beyond this range leads to higher order coupling to the zeitgeber period, i.e. entrainment of every other pulse. They then perform entrainment experiments where the concentration of DAPT is changed to elicit a change in the strength of interaction between the internal clock and the external stimulus (referred to as zeitgeber strength); interestingly at low strength response to entrainment is more variable leading to entrainment occurring in some samples while others remain unaffected (Figure 4A); overall, higher concentration leads to faster entrainment (Figure 4C). The experimental data is then analysed using stroboscopic maps to reveal that a stable entrainment phase shift is achieved between the internal clock and the external zeitgeber. Phase response curve (PRC) analysis indicates that the system response is not sinusoidal but predominantly characterised by negative PRC, a behaviour consistent with saddle-node on invariant cycle (SNIC); it also reveals that the intrinsic period changes in a non-linear way and that this effect is reversible when external stimulation stops. Finally, a theoretical model is proposed to represent the segmentation clock as a dynamical system; this is based upon Radial Isochron Cycle with Acceleration (ERICA), an extension motivated by the PRC analysis results which are incompatible with a Radial Isochron Cycle (RIC); this model has predictive capability and could be used to design new control strategies for entrainment of the segmentation clock.

      This study makes a series of key conclusions which are of particular importance in understanding the dynamic response of a biological oscillators. Firstly, given it's the characteristics of the dynamic response to entrainment, the segmentation clock is likely close to a SNIC bifurcation and this can explain the tendency for relaxation of the period over time. Secondly, the clock period was changed in a non-linear way in the direction of the zeitgeber period, a finding which is interpreted to indicate the presence of feedback of the segmentation clock onto itself, potentially via Wnt. This makes an excellent prediction that if tested experimentally would greatly improve the impact of the study. It is also noted that the entrainment of the segmentation clock does not abolish spatial periodicity and phase wave emergence suggesting that single cell oscillators can adjust to periodic perturbation while maintaining emergent properties. This is also a significant result that would need to be followed up with experiments and computation however would be best suited to a separate study.

      Major comments:

      __# 12 __The coarse graining is a major point that would need to be clarified since the rest of the analysis

      and theoretical modelling in the paper flow from this. Firstly, the interpretation of the schematic in Figure 1A on experimental data collection is not immediately obvious to the reader, lacks a clear flow between the different panels or steps (which could be numbered for example) and does not have a legend to indicate the different colour mapping.

      We are grateful to the reviewer for this comment. We have implemented in Figure 1A all the changes suggested by the reviewer: we numbered the different steps and have added a colour mapping. In addition we have rephrased the caption of Fig 1A to better connect the experimental steps.

      __# 13 __Secondly, Figure 2A which explicitly addresses coarse graining is not clear enough. Is the

      message here that by excluding the inner parts of the sample with a radial ROI, a similar dynamic response is observed over time?

      Yes, indeed this is the point and we have adjusted the figure and text to explain this better. Our goal is to focus on the quantification of segmentation pace and rhythm. This is best captured by reporters such as LuVeLu, which has maximum intensity in regions where segment forms, and which dynamics is known to be strongly correlated to segmentation (Aulehla et al., 2007; Lauschke and Tsiairis et al., 20132). The global ROI is thus expected to precisely capture these segmentation and clock dynamics and we have now included more validation data and have also edited the text to make this very important point clearer:

      “To perform a systematic analysis of entrainment dynamics, we first introduced a single oscillator description of the segmentation clock. We used the segmentation clock reporter LuVeLu, which shows highest signal levels in regions where segments form \cite{Aulehla_A_2007}. Hence, we reasoned that a global ROI quantification, averaging LuVeLu intensities over the entire sample, should faithfully report on the segmentation rate and rhythm, essentially quantifying 'wave arrival' and segment formation in the periphery of the sample.”

      Figure 2A indeed shows that the dynamics (from the timeseries) is very similar when considering the entire field of view (global ROI) or when considering only the periphery of the 2D-assay (excluding central regions). We modified Figure 2A to clarify this point by indicating each measurement as either global ROI or global ROI minus the diameter of the excluded circular region (e.g. global ROI - 50px). We also emphasized in the caption that timeseries are obtained using global ROI, unless otherwise specified. We included a link (https://youtu.be/fRHsHYU_H2Q) in the caption to a movie of 2D-assay subjected to periodic pulses of DAPT (or DMSO) and corresponding timeseries from global ROI.

      Since the inner part of the sample corresponds to the posterior side how do we interpret similarities and differences between signals with different ROIs?

      As stated above, the global ROI measurements essentially capture the signal at the periphery where segments form and faithfully mirrors segmentation rate and rhythm. We have now included a comparison to the center ROI, also in response to reviewer’s comments, see our response #34.

      The result shows that the period and PRC in the center matches the one found in the periphery, i.e. global ROI. We have shown previously that center and periphery differ in their oscillation phase by 2pi, i.e., one full cycle (Lauschke et al., 2013). We interpret these findings as confirmation of our analysis strategy, i.e. the global ROI allows a very reproducible, unbiased quantification that reports on segmentation clock and period.

      __# 14 __A quantitative analysis of essential coarse-grained properties such as period and amplitude

      should be performed for different ROIs and across multiple samples. As this effectively masks any spatial differences, limitations of this approach should be clearly stated in the Discussion. For example in lines 466-470 where it is difficult to interpret the slowing down tendency and relate back to single cell level.

      As outlined in our response to comment #13 and also #34, we chose an analysis that allows to determine the segmentation pace and rhythm, i.e. segment formation, which is well captured by LuVeLu signal and a global ROI analysis. We agree that a spatially resolved analysis of dynamic behaviour is important (and indeed a gradient of amplitude might be relevant in such context), but we think this is beyond the scope of the current study focused on the system level segmentation clock behaviour. We have revised the discussion as suggested by the reviewer to make this point approach and the need for future studies clearer.

      __# 15 __The functional characterisation of the sample using LFNG, AXIN2 and MESP2 is unclear. The

      images included in Figure 2D representing expression observed when tissue explants are grown within the microfluidic chip are difficult to interpret and would require a more detailed description of anterior-posterior, pillars etc; it is also difficult to view the bright-field since it is presented as a merged image.

      It is particularly difficult to see the somite boundaries for the same reason. In lines 113-117 the authors state that the global oscillation period matches the periodic boundary formation. How do we reach this conclusion from these images? What is the variability between samples?

      If these two issues would be addressed it would increase confidence in the coarse graining argument and thus would strengthen the importance of the findings in the study.

      We thank the reviewer for this feedback, and we have added more quantifications to address this point directly in the modified Figure 2. Importantly, we added the quantification of the rate of segmentation in multiple samples based on segment boundary formation (new Figure 2D) and compared this to the global ROI quantifications using the reporter lines LuVeLu. This data provides clear evidence that the quantification of global ROI reporter intensities closely matches the rate of morphological segment boundary formation. In addition, we show that segment formation and also Wnt-signaling oscillations (Axin2-Achilles) and the segmentation marker Mesp2 (Mesp2-GFP) are all entrained to the zeitgeber period. We have also revised the text to clarify this important validation of our quantitative approach.

      In addition, we provide, in the revised Figure Suppl. 2, details of entrained samples, focusing on the segmenting regions. The brightfield and reporter channels were separated, emphasizing the segment boundaries and the expression pattern of the reporters. For ease of visualization, these samples were also re-oriented so that the tissue periphery (corresponding to anterior PSM) is at the top while the tissue center (corresponding to the posterior PSM) is at the bottom. This now additionally better shows the localization of the different reporters with respect to the segment boundary. We also included supplementary movies showing timelapse of samples expressing either Axin2-GSAGS-Achilles or Mesp2-GFP that were subjected to periodic DAPT pulses, with their respective controls.

      Several minor points could be addressed to improve the manuscript and are listed below:

      # 16 Figure 1 A the colormap and axes for the oscillatory traces should be defined

      We thank the reviewer, and we have modified the figure accordingly (related to point # 12). A colormap and axes for the illustrated timeseries are now included.

      # 17 Strength of zeitgeber is not defined and there is no analytical expression provided; how does it

      relate to DAPT concentration? Is the fact that low DAPT concentration corresponds to weak strength expected or is it a result?

      Zeitgeber strength generally refers to the magnitude of the perturbation periodically applied to an oscillator. With DAPT pulses, our expectation was that both the duration of the pulse and the drug concentration could influence the strength. Practically, the pulse duration was kept constant for all experiments and the concentration was varied. We thus expected that DAPT concentration would indeed be correlated to zeitgeber strength. We have discussed multiple evidence supporting this assumption in the main text, and this is indeed a result. In particular, as explained in the section “The pace of segmentation clock can be locked to a wide range of entrainment periods”, higher DAPT concentration gives rise to faster and better entrainment, as expected from classical theory. In the context of Arnold tongue, weaker zeitgeber strength corresponds to narrower entrainment region, which is experimentally observed (Fig 8F, showing regions where the clock is entrained).

      From a modelling standpoint, Zeitgeber strength corresponds to parameter A which is the amplitude of the perturbation. Possible zeitgeber strength was inferred from the model by matching the experimental entrainment phase with that obtained from the model isophases. As explained in Supplementary Note 2, we tested four concentrations of DAPT (0.5, 1, 2, and 3 uM) respectively corresponding to A values of 0.13, 0.31,0.43, 0.55. As we can see, those A values are not linear in DAPT concentrations, which is expected since multiple effects (such as saturation) can occur.

      __# 18 __In some figures it looks like the amplitude of oscillations may change with DAPT concentration

      and hence zeitgeber strength? Is this expected?

      We have not systematically analyzed the amplitude effect and have, intentionally, focused on the period and phase readout as most robust and faithful parameters to be quantified. Regarding the amplitude of LuVeLu reporter, we are cautious given that it is influenced, potentially, by the (artificial) degradation system that we included in LuVeLu, i.e. a PEST domain. This effect concerns the amplitude, but not the phase and period, explaining our strategy.

      That said, we agree with the referee that DAPT concentrations might change the amplitude of oscillations. Such change could even play a role in the change of intrinsic period (in fact a similar mechanism drives overdrive suppression for cardiac oscillators, Kunysz et al., 1995). But since the change of period can be more easily measured and inferred, we prefer to directly model it instead of introducing a new hypothesis on amplitude/period coupling, at least for this first study of entrainment.

      __# 19 __Figure 2A including the black area creates confusion and it is unclear which ROI is used in the

      rest of the study; consider moving this to a supplementary figure perhaps

      We thank the reviewer for this feedback (related to point #13), and we have modified the figure accordingly. As we responded to point # 13: We modified Figure 2A, by indicating each measurement as either global ROI or global ROI minus the diameter of the excluded circular region (e.g. global ROI - 50px). We also emphasized in the caption that timeseries are obtained using global ROI, unless otherwise specified.

      __# 20 __What type of detrending is used in Figure 2 and throughout (include info in the figure legend)?

      We used sinc-filter detrending, described and validated in detail previously (Mönke et al., 2020), as specified in Supplementary Note 1: Materials and methods > H. Data analysis > Monitoring period-locking and phase-locking: In this workflow, timeseries was first detrended using a sinc filter and then subjected to continuous wavelet transform. We thank the reviewer for pointing out that this detail is lacking in the figure captions, and we have modified the captions accordingly.

      __# 21 __Figure 2D merged images are difficult to read/interpret (see major comments)

      We thank the reviewer for this comment, and we have modified the figure accordingly (please see response to related point #15).

      __# 22 __Kuramoto order parameter is used to quantify the level of synchrony across the different samples

      however it is not defined in the text. Is it also possible to assess variability in each sample? For example how quickly does entrained occur in each sample? How faithfully the peaks of expression beyond 80min (to exclude initial unsynchronised state) match with zeitgeber time? This would help make the point that weak strength leads to a more variable response which is an interesting finding.

      We have now added a mathematical definition of the Kuramoto parameter in Supplementary Note 1.

      A high order parameter corresponds to coherence between samples, as also elaborated in respective figure captions (e.g. in the caption for polar plots in Figure 4D).

      In terms of variability in response to entrainment, we thank the reviewer for the comments, which has prompted us to perform an additional analysis, now included as Figure S13 in the Supplement.

      Briefly, we represent below figures showing how different samples get synchronized with the zeitgeber. To do this, we first represent the zeitgeber signal as a continuous uniformly increasing phase (“zeitgeber time”) with period : . The initial condition for is chosen so that the zeitgeber phase at the moment of last pulse is matching the experimental entrainment phase for each . We plot for each sample (dotted lines) and the zeitgeber phase (magenta line). To quantify how well each sample is following the zeitgeber time, we compute the Kuramoto parameter: . By the end of experiment most samples reach , indicating entrainment. Most samples need zeitgeber cycles to become entrained. For min the entrainment takes much longer (edge of the Arnold tongue). For min there is much variability, which can be explained by the horizontal region in the PRC around the entrainment phase. As suggested by the referee, synchronization is faster for higher DAPT concentration. So those dynamics are indeed consistent with the expectation from classical PRC theory.

      # 23 Do samples change period to Tzeit in similar ways - i.e. patterns over time. It looks like the

      kuramoto order parameter and period drop initially - why?

      We do not have a direct answer as to why the Kuramoto first order parameter and the period drop for the condition the reviewer specified. It has to be noted though that because of how wavelet analysis is done (cross-correlation of the timeseries with wavelets), the period and phase determination at the boundaries of the time series are less reliable (edge effects, see Mönke et al., 2020). Because of this, we should take caution when considering data to and from the first and last pulses, respectively. This was explicitly stated in the generation of stroboscopic maps: “As wavelets only partially overlap the signal at the edges of the timeseries, resulting in deviations from true phase values (Mönke et al., 2020), the first and last pulse pairs were not considered in the generation of stroboscopic maps.

      # 24 In Figure 4C why is the Kuramoto order parameter already higher in the 2uM DAPT conditions at

      the start of the experiment?

      Samples can, by chance, start synchronously and this results in a high Kuramoto first order parameter. Because of this likelihood, it is thus important to interpret the entrainment behaviour of multiple samples using various readouts, in addition to a high Kuramoto first order parameter. We investigated entrainment of the samples based on several measures: multiple samples remaining (or becoming more) synchronous (because each sample actively synchronizes with the zeitgeber), period-locking (where the pace of the samples match the pace of the zeitgeber, which can be distinct from natural pace), and phase-locking (where there is an establishment of a stable phase relationship between the samples and the zeitgeber).

      # 25 Figure 3C and Figure S2 require statistical testing between CTRL and DAPT in each condition

      p-values were calculated for the specified conditions and were added in the caption of the figures. These values are enumerated here:

      • Figure 3C
      • 170-min 2uM DAPT (vs DMSO control): p
      • Figure S2
      • 120-min 2uM DAPT (vs DMSO control): p = 0.064
      • 130-min 2uM DAPT (vs DMSO control): p = 0.003
      • 140-min 2uM DAPT (vs DMSO control): p = 0.272
      • 150-min 2uM DAPT (vs DMSO control): p = 0.001
      • 160-min 2uM DAPT (vs DMSO control): p To calculate p-values, two-tailed test for absolute difference between medians was done via a randomization method (Goedhart, 2019). This confirms that the period of samples subjected to pulses of DAPT is not equal to the controls, except for the 140-min condition (where the zeitgeber period is equal to the natural period, i.e. 140 mins).

      # 26 Figure 3A gray shaded area not clearly visible on the graph

      We have decided to remove the interquartile range (IQR) in the specified figure as it does not serve a crucial purpose in this case. By removing it in Figure 3A, the timeseries of individual samples are now clearer.

      # 27 Figure 6C colour maping of time progression is not clearly visible on the graph; the interpretation

      of this observation is unclear in the text and the figure

      We agree that the low quality of the image is unfortunate, and it seems that our file was greatly compressed upon submission. We have checked the proper quality of figures in the resubmitted version of the manuscript.

      Regarding the interpretation of Figure 6C, we conclude that in our experiments the entrainment phase is an attractor or stable fixed point, in line with theory (Granada and Herzel, 2009; Granada et al., 2009),. We had elaborated this in the text (lines 248-252 of the submitted version of the manuscript): at the same zeitgeber strength and zeitgeber period, faster (or slower) convergence towards this fixed point (i.e. entrainment) was achieved when the initial phase of the endogenous oscillation (φinit) was closer or farther to φent.

      # 28 Figure 7A circular spread not clearly visible on the graph

      Similar to point #27, we have provided a high resolution graph for the re-submission and hopefully resolved this issue.

      # 29 Figure S7A difficult to see the difference between colours

      See point #28.

      # 30 Is it possible to compare the PRC and the plots of period over time during entrainment? The PRC

      is mainly negative (Fig 8A1,A2), in my understanding this means a delay, however the periods seem to decrease over time before entraining to the Tzeit (Fig 3B). Is this reflective of a decrease in Kuramoto parameter and potential de-synchronisation of single cells before re-synchronisation at Tzeit?

      To address this question, we now plot the Phase response with colors indicating pulse number in new Supplementary Figure S13. While capturing the entire PRC as a function of time would require many more experiments (in particular to sample the phases far from entrainment phase), we still clearly see that the PRCs appear to translate vertically as the oscillator is being entrained, i.e. the latter time points are shifted up (down) for T_zeit = 120 (170) min, respectively.

      # 31 Fig 8A What is the importance/meaning of the PRC being similar shape between different

      entrainment periods? Does this reflect that the underlying gene network is the same?

      If one single gene network is responsible for oscillations, we expect from dynamical systems theory that the PRC are not only of similar shape but actually the same, independent of the entrainment period. What is surprising is that the PRC for different entrainment periods do not overlap, and the simplest explanation for this is that the intrinsic period changes with entrainment, all things being kept equal (including the underlying gene networks). This relates to the previous point since we indeed observe that the PRC “translates” vertically with the pulse number for longer periods. The change of period might be due to a long-term regulation as detailed in the discussion.

      # 32 The spatial period gradient and wave propagation under DAPT (Figure S8) should be included in

      the results and not just the discussion.

      We fully agree with the reviewer that both the establishment and the maintenance of a spatial phase gradient is of great interest. However, many more experiments would be required to fully quantify and understand the processes at play here, which we believe to be out of the scope of the current manuscript. To keep the focus of the paper on the global segmentation clock itself, we prefer to keep this figure in Supplement.

      Reviewer #2 (Significance (Required)):

      We currently do not have a detailed understanding of how biological oscillators integrate local signals from their neighbours as well global external signals to give rise to complex patterning that is important for embryonic development. Main bottlenecks that hinder our understanding are lack of real-time endogenous dynamic response together with known global inputs as well as comprehensive models that can explain emergent behaviour in a variety of tissues.

      This study goes a long way in addressing these bottlenecks in the embryonic tissue responsible for somite formation, a dynamical and oscillatory system also known as the segmentation clock. Firstly, they rely on a state-of-the-art previously developed system to entrain endogenous response in live tissue explants using precise microfluidic control. They test the complete range of exogenous perturbation periods and use an existing live reporter (LuVeLu) to monitor endogenous response. They also identify higher order coupling relationships whereby every other LuVeLu peak is entrained through external stimulation.

      As the stimulation system does not control but rather perturb the endogenous response, the observations from LuVeLu provide a unique opportunity in understanding input-output relationships and thus describing the dynamic response of the segmentation clock. Authors propose to study dynamic behaviour of the clock using coarse-graining and focus on describing the overall response over time while amalgamating spatial information. Appropriate coarse-graining is an important strategy in addressing complex problems and is widely used. They use sophisticated methodology such as phase response curves and Arnold tongue mapping to make several important observations. For example the nonlinear shortening and elongation of the period in response to stimulation is particularly interesting since this may indicates a feedback of the clock onto itself potentially via Wnt. Another key observation is that the spatial periodicity and phase wave activity persists in the perturbed conditions suggesting that individual single cell oscillators can adjust their behaviour to external input while retaining coordination with their neighbours. Finally, the authors go on to construct a general dynamical model of the segmentation clock and use this to conclude that the intrinsic period of the oscillator is altered and that the oscillator can be considered excitable.

      This work sheds light onto mechanisms of coordination of Notch activity in assemblies of cells observed in living tissue, an area of research that is important not only for somitogenesis but also for understanding gene expression patterning in many other tissues where Notch plays a critical role, for example in the development of the neural system and organs. As a study of a real-world nonlinear oscillator this work is directly of interest to theoreticians and synthetic biology experts interested in understanding complex patterning and emergence.


      Reviewer #3 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      In this manuscript, authors studied the system-level responses of the somite segmentation clock by the coarse-grained theoretical-experimental approach, applying the theory of entrainment to understanding the phase responses of mouse pre-somitic mesoderm (PSM) tissues in the presence of periodic perturbation of Notch inhibitor DAPT generated by micro-fluidics technique. It was demonstrated that the segmentation clock is responsive to diverse range of the perturbation-periods from 120 to 180 min, can be period- and phase-locked, and the efficiency is dependent of the DAPT concentration (input-strength). The authors also observed two cycles of the segmentation-clock ticking in single cycles of 300 or 350 min period-perturbation, suggesting that higher order (2:1 mode) entrainment. They also applied stroboscopic maps to analysis and found that entrainment-phases are dependent of period of DAPT pulses, which is recapitulating theoretical predictions. The estimation of the phase response curve (PRC) of the segmentation clock revealed that the inferred PRC is an asymmetrical and mainly negative function, which represents characteristic features in oscillators that emerge after saddle-node on invariant cycle (SNIC) bifurcation. These results also indicated that the the segmentation clock changed the intrinsic period during entrainment.

      Major comments:

      # 33 I have major concerns about the relevance of the global time-series analysis proposed in Fig.2

      and conclusion about the changes of the intrinsic period during entrainment. The validity of the global time-series analysis should be carefully analyzed, because it could bring artifacts in estimated values of the intrinsic period. The authors concluded (page 3, line 172) that the period calculated by the global analysis represents similar values with the rate of segment formation, but there is no data about the quantification of the periods of segmentation, such as the frequency of Mesp2 reporter expression.

      We thank the reviewer for this feedback. We have now added the quantification of the period of segment formation (new Figure 2E) and show its strong correspondence to the dynamics of reporters used (Lfng, Axin2, and Mesp2). Please see also our response to point #15 with additional comments regarding the validation of the global time-series analysis.

      # 34 Another related issue is the presence of spatial period gradient as mentioned (page 13, line 524).

      One possible approach to circumvent this issue would be "local" time-series analysis; for instance, just focusing on the "putative posterior" regions that are close to source-positions of waves. Authors can re-compute and estimate PRCs by using such a method.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion and have accordingly now included the analysis of a localized ROI at the center (center ROI) of the 2D-assays (new Figures S5-S6). We also computed the PRC from center ROIs as shown below. We note strong correspondence between the global ROI and the center ROI.

      # 35 I have another major concern about the evidence of higher order entrainment shown in Fig.5. If

      the 1:2 entrainment is successful, we can expect that the values of observed period is close to the half of the period of pulses; However, the period shown in Fig.5B looks like 185 min longer than the half of 350 min. Is this gap due to the temporal accuracy of time-lapse movies?

      We do not think the discrepancy comes from a problem of temporal accuracy as the temporal accuracy is the same for all movies and there is no reason why there would be a specific issue for this set of experiments. In addition, we have re-analyzed the data to calculate the period from the stroboscopic maps. Mathematically speaking, we take the stroboscopic map as (see PDF) and use this to estimate the period of oscillation in entrained samples , in particular inverting the formula for 1:2 entrainment we have : see PDF.

      The advantage of this method is that it gives a more ``instantaneous” estimation of the period.

      The results are as follows:

      350 10uM: 187 +- 8 min (average across entrained samples from the last zeitgeber period)

      350 5uM: 193 +- 13 min (average across entrained samples from the last zeitgeber period)

      300 2uM: 148 +- 8 min (averaged across entrained samples and from two last periods)

      This additional analysis is in agreement with the wavelet analysis.

      The reviewer is right that for 350 minutes, entrained samples show an observed period that is higher than expected, also based on this new additional analysis. The reason for this is not known. One explanation is the relatively short observation time, especially considering for pulses separated by as much as 350-minutes, i.e. only 3 pulses are applied. [We notice that for 300 minutes pulses, the period converges to 150 mins between the 3rd and the 4th pulse]. We have adjusted the text in the results section to reflect that for 350min entrained samples, the observed period ‘approaches’ the predicted value, while for 300min entrained samples, the observed period is very close to it, i.e. 147mins In addition, we comment that the phase distribution narrows with time, another indication supporting higher order entrainment.

      # 36 Also, authors showed the period evolution towards 1:2 locking with just one condition (350 min).

      Authors can show the data for multiple conditions as in Fig. 3D, at least for 300 min and 325 min pulses and add the data about final entrained period with statistic analysis that supports the difference between the entrained period and the natural period (140 min).

      We thank the reviewer for this feedback and have modified the figure accordingly. In particular, in Figure 5A, we have added the period evolution plot for samples subjected to 300-min periodic pulses of 2uM DAPT (or DMSO for control). Additionally, we have added Figure 5D, which plots the average period in the 300-min and 350-min conditions. We summarize the median average period here with computed p-values:

      • 300-min pulses of 2uM DAPT (or DMSO for control): p-value = 0.191
      • CTRL: 130.39 mins
      • DAPT: 146.45 mins

      • 350-min pulses of 5uM DAPT (or DMSO for control): p-value = 0.049

      • CTRL: 127 mins
      • DAPT: 174.86 mins

      • 350-min pulses of 10uM DAPT (or DMSO for control): p-value = 0.016

      • CTRL: 142.82 mins
      • DAPT: 185.12 mins

      Minor comments:

      # 37 The authors can draw vertical lines indicating the T_zeit in Fig.3B, Fig.4B and Fig.5B in order to

      help comparisons between T_zeit and patterns of period (solid lines).

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. We have accordingly added a horizontal line indicating Tzeit in Figures 3B, 4B, S4A, and S5A (figure panel numbers based on the submitted version of the manuscript). We similarly added a horizontal line indicating 0.5Tzeit in the period evolution plots of 300-min and 350-min conditions in Figures 5A and 5B, respectively.

      # 38 In Fig.5A, the authors can show period evolution in the case of 300 min DAPT-pulses as shown

      in Fig.5B.

      We thank the reviewer for this feedback (related to point #36), and we have modified the figure accordingly.

      # 39 In Fig.6B DAPT panel, the authors can draw the points of phi_ent as shown in Fig.7A.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment, and we have modified the figure accordingly.

      # 40 In Fig. 8F, authors can put the information about DAPT concentration at the right y-axis.

      This is a similar comment as point #17, see above. In brief, we do not know the precise relation between the strength of the perturbation in our model and DAPT concentration, zeitgeber strength was inferred from the model by matching the experimental entrainment phase with that obtained from the model isophases.

      # 41 In Fig. 8G, the PRC in the panel "170 mins" does not have any fixed point (cross sections with

      horizontal lines of "0" phase response). If entrainment is successful, there should be stable and unstable fixed points, but those are absent, although 170 min pulses succeeded in the entrainment as shown in Fig.3D. Authors can explain where the fixed points are.

      The fixed points are indeed defined by the intersection with a horizontal line, but not with the ‘0’ line. They are found where the phase response compensates for the detuning/period mismatch, not at ‘0’ phase response. (See PDF for more details).

      Note however on Fig 8G that we further observe a vertical shift of the PRC, which prompted us to propose a change of the intrinsic period with (as explained in the text when we introduce Figs 8A1-2).

      Another way to visualize fixed points is offered in Fig 16 D-E, where we plot the inferred corrected PTC and the stroboscopic maps: there, fixed points correspond to intersections with the diagonal.

      Reviewer #3 (Significance (Required)):

      Although the phase-analysis has been widely applied to various biological systems, such as circadian clocks, cardiac tissues and neurons, this paper represents the first detailed experimental analysis of the segmentation clock based on the theory of phase dynamics. The major results are inline with theoretical predictions, whereas the suggestion about the SNIC bifurcation is attractive not only to the theoretical researchers but also to the experimental biologists; it has been believed that the segmentation clock consists of negative-feedback oscillator that emerge by Hopf bifurcation, whereas this paper proposes another possibility of the molecular network structure for the clockwork. This issue is related to recently proposed hypothesis about the excitable system in the segmentation clock based on the Yap signaling (Hubaud et al. Cell 171, 668 (2017)). However, unfortunately, discussion about detailed molecular networks are not abundant.

      # 42 Thus, maybe the main readers are computational biologists and systems biologists.

      We thank the reviewer for his/her significance comment. We have added comments on the bifurcation structure of the segmentation clock and on excitable systems in the discussion. While our focus is on coarse-graining so that we do not and cannot infer precise molecular details, we can still infer some properties of the underlying networks. In particular we now cite several papers explaining how systems with tunable periods/excitable are indicative of the interplay between positive and negative feedbacks. We think those considerations are of interest to a broad range of biologists interested in connecting experiments to theory.

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      The paper by Ichiyama et al. characterizes how CRH-expressing neurons of the paraventricular nucleus of hypothalamus (PVN) alter their firing characteristics during an acutely stressful experience. The authors first use in vivo single-unit extracellular recordings from optogenetically identified CRH neurons in PVN, before and during noxious stimulation of the sciatic nerve. CRH neurons fire in bursts during basal conditions that included long interburst non-spiking periods. During the stressful stimulus, instead, these cells stopped bursting, became tonically active and had increased overall firing rates. An in silico network model simulated the PVn network and used realistic synaptic currents injected into CRH cells. This model illustrated how simple recurrent inhibition can act as a switch changing the cells from one firing pattern to the other.

      The experiments are carried out with care and the data are of high quality. This manuscript represents the first time to my knowledge that electrophysiological recordings have been used in vivo to track the firing of individual CRH neurons before and during acute stress. The authors then created a network model to test the idea that synaptic currents may shift the firing patterns of these cells from a bursting to a tonic firing state, and present evidence that a drop in GABAergic inhibition coupled with an increase in spike-triggered adaptation mimicked the effects seen in vivo after stress. Taking this information back to neurons in brain slices, the authors use their model to drive similar changes in spike patterns by altering relevant synaptic and intrinsic currents.

      There is some concern that previous work examining the role of other intrinsic currents in burst behavior as well as in vitro data from CRH neurons in slices after stress are not discussed or considered.

    1. set them in a Dish under theLeg of Mutton when it is half roastedand so let the gravy drop into them

      A feature of early modern cooking was the move from cooking food in a large pot over a fire to the innovation of the side hearth, which allowed the cook to hang multiple vessels over the fire at once. See Buxton (2015), p. 118.

  22. Mar 2022
    1. This quote from G.R.R. Martin, the author of A Song of Ice and Fire and other novels, offers a good illustration of the key difference between Roam and Notion: “I think there are two types of writers, the architects and the gardeners. The architects plan everything ahead of time, like an architect building a house. They know how many rooms are going to be in the house, what kind of roof they’re going to have, where the wires are going to run, what kind of plumbing there’s going to be. They have the whole thing designed and blueprinted out before they even nail the first board up. The gardeners dig a hole, drop in a seed and water it. They kind of know what seed it is, they know if planted a fantasy seed or mystery seed or whatever. But as the plant comes up and they water it, they don’t know how many branches it’s going to have, they find out as it grows. And I’m much more a gardener than an architect.”

      A good way to think about Roam vs. Notion.

      Notion is more for the "architects" and Roam is better suited for the "gardeners."

      The thing is, we ALL have parts of our life that require precision and parts where we need creativity. Both tools might be used successfully.

  23. Feb 2022
    1. The Great Salt Lake is set to drop below its all-time low. That adds dangerous dust to existing air pollution, costing us both health and dollars. Lake Powell is at a critically low water level, as are many of our water supplies.

      A lot of water also being used to put out wild fires and help fire containment . - need to look into that

  24. Oct 2021
    1. The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect, over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked; his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire; he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight; you are ten thousand times so abominable in his eyes as the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours. You have offended him infinitely more than ever a stubborn rebel did his prince: and yet ’tis nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment; ’tis to be ascribed to nothing else, that you did not go to hell the last night; that you was suffered to awake again in this world, after you closed your eyes to sleep: and there is no other reason to be given why you have not dropped into hell since you arose in the morning, but that God’s hand has held you up; there is no other reason to be given why you han’t gone to hell since you have sat here in the house of God, provoking his pure eyes by your sinful wicked manner of attending his solemn worship: yea, there is nothing else that is to be given as a reason why you don’t this very moment drop down into hell.

      he's warning people if that they anger God than God will sent them to hell

  25. Sep 2021
    1. D0 Soil is dry; irrigation delivery begins earlyDryland crop germination is stuntedActive fire season beginsWinter resort visitation is low; snowpack is minimal D1 Dryland pasture growth is stunted; producers give supplemental feed to cattleLandscaping and gardens need irrigation earlier; wildlife patterns begin to changeStock ponds and creeks are lower than usual D2 Grazing land is inadequateProducers increase water efficiency methods and drought-resistant cropsFire season is longer, with high burn intensity, dry fuels, and large fire spatial extent; more fire crews are on staffWine country tourism increases; lake- and river-based tourism declines; boat ramps closeTrees are stressed; plants increase reproductive mechanisms; wildlife diseases increaseWater temperature increases; programs to divert water to protect fish beginRiver flows decrease; reservoir levels are low and banks are exposed D3 Livestock need expensive supplemental feed, cattle and horses are sold; little pasture remains, producers find it difficult to maintain organic meat requirementsFruit trees bud early; producers begin irrigating in the winterFederal water is not adequate to meet irrigation contracts; extracting supplemental groundwater is expensiveDairy operations closeFire season lasts year-round; fires occur in typically wet parts of state; burn bans are implementedSki and rafting business is low, mountain communities sufferOrchard removal and well drilling company business increase; panning for gold increasesLow river levels impede fish migration and cause lower survival ratesWildlife encroach on developed areas; little native food and water is available for bears, which hibernate lessWater sanitation is a concern, reservoir levels drop significantly, surface water is nearly dry, flows are very low; water theft occursWells and aquifer levels decrease; homeowners drill new wellsWater conservation rebate programs increase; water use restrictions are implemented; water transfers increaseWater is inadequate for agriculture, wildlife, and urban needs; reservoirs are extremely low; hydropower is restricted D4 Fields are left fallow; orchards are removed; vegetable yields are low; honey harvest is smallFire season is very costly; number of fires and area burned are extensiveMany recreational activities are affectedFish rescue and relocation begins; pine beetle infestation occurs; forest mortality is high; wetlands dry up; survival of native plants and animals is low; fewer wildflowers bloom; wildlife death is widespread; algae blooms appearPolicy change; agriculture unemployment is high, food aid is neededPoor air quality affects health; greenhouse gas emissions increase as hydropower production decreases; West Nile Virus outbreaks riseWater shortages are widespread; surface water is depleted; federal irrigation water deliveries are extremely low; junior water rights are curtailed; water prices are extremely high; wells are dry, more and deeper wells are drilled; water quality is poo

      A found poem, via Meg Bernhard.

  26. May 2021
    1. Away from the masonry wall and let her drop.

      People were better off jumping hoping to live because there was no chance of escaping the fire through the building.

    2. Away from the masonry wall and let her drop. And then another. As if he were helping them up To enter a streetcar, and not eternity.

      Oh so he dropped her out of the window. Probably hoping she would live rather than go down with the fire....?

    3. The witness in a building across the street Who watched how a young man helped a girl to step Up to the windowsill, then held her out Away from the masonry wall and let her drop.

      People across the street saw the sweatshop catch fire. They witnessed someone drop a girl out of the window to avoid the fire.

  27. Mar 2021
    1. Note: This rebuttal was posted by the corresponding author to Review Commons. Content has not been altered except for formatting.

      Learn more at Review Commons


      Reply to the reviewers

      Response to all reviewers

      We thank all the reviewers for carefully considering our manuscript and providing useful comments and suggestions. We agree with the general comment that testing our key findings in breast cancer cells is important. We will therefore carry out this work over the coming months and include this data in the revision. The other specific comments we address individually in the point-by-point responses below, which provides an outline of the other new experiments we plan to carry out prior to revision.

      In addition to this, we would like to just highlight one general point that we only picked up when considering these responses. It is important to highlight this to all reviewers now, since we believe it adds clinical weight to our conclusions. This relates to the issue of P53, which our manuscript shows drives resistance to CDK4/6 inhibition in cells by inhibiting long-term cell cycle withdrawal following genotoxic damage.

      P53 loss has been implicated in abemaciclib resistance in breast cancer patients (P53 mutation was detected in 2/18 responsive patients and 10/13 non-responsive patents (Patnaik et al., 2016)). This was recently corroborated in a larger scale study in breast cancer: the first whole exome sequencing study aimed at characterising intrinsic and acquired resistance to CDK4/6 inhibitors (Wander et al., 2020). In this recent study, P53 loss/mutation was identified in 0/18 sensitive tumours, 14/28 intrinsically resistant tumours, and 9/13 tumour with acquired resistance**. This was the most frequent single genetic change associated with resistance (58.5%), although 8 other genetic changes were also associated with resistance to differing degrees (7-27%).

      Most of these other resistance events occurred in pathways known previously to help drive G1/S progression following CDK4/6 inhibition: i.e. fully predictable resistance mechanism (RB loss, CCNE2 amplification, ER loss, RAS/AKT1 activation, FGFR2/ERB22 mutation/amplification). Importantly, when the authors attempted to recapitulate these resistance event in breast cancer cell lines, they could demonstrate the expected increase in proliferation following CDK4/6 inhibition in all situation tested, except for P53 loss. This caused the authors to conclude that “loss of P53 function is not sufficient to drive CDK4/6i resistance”. This would appear to us to be an unsatisfactory explanation given the clinical data. However, the authors speculated further that: “Enrichment of TP53 mutation in resistant specimens may result from heavier pre-treatment (including chemotherapies), may be permissive for the development of other resistance-promoting alterations, or may cooperate with secondary alterations to drive CDK4/6i resistance in vivo.”

      We believe that our data provide a crucial alternative explanation for these clinical findings. P53 does not affect the efficiency of a G1 arrest (fig.2), but rather it prevents the resulting genotoxic damage from inducing long-term cell cycle withdrawal (figs.2,3). Therefore, this could explain why it drives resistance in clinical disease but not in the in vitro cell growth assays employed by Wander et al. This highlights a crucial general point of our paper – important effects like this can be missed or misinterpreted until the true nature of long-term cell cycle withdrawal is appreciated.

      As part of our breast cancer work at revision we will analyse this closely by comparing the effect of p53 loss on long-term cell cycle withdrawal. If the current RPE1 data holds true in breast cancer, then we believe that out study would provide a crucial explanation for these clinical findings, and in turn, these clinical data would throw weight behind our conclusion that genotoxic damage and p53 loss is a clinically important consequence of CDK4/6 inhibition in patients.


      Reviewer #1 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)): Comments on 'CDK4/6 inhibitors induce replication stress to cause long-term cell cycle withdrawal' The rationale for this work is to understand the mechanism by which Cdk4/6 inhibitors inhibit tumour cell growth, specifically via senescence which seems to be a frequent outcome of Cdk4/6 inhibition. Although several mechanisms by which Cdk4/6 inhibition induce senescence have been proposed these have varied with the cancer cell model studied. To examine the mechanism for the cytostatic effect of cdk4/6i in therapy without potential confounding effects of different cancer cell line backgrounds, Crozier et al tackle this question in the non-transformed, immortalised diploid human cell line, RPE1. They use live cell imaging and colony formation to track the impact of G1 arrests of different lengths induced by a range of clinically relevant cdk4/6 inhibitors. They also use CRISPR-mediated removal of p53 to examine the role of p53 in the observed cell cycle responses. After noting that G1 arrest of over 2 days leads to a pronounced failure in continued cell cycle and proliferation that is associated with features of replication stress, they perform a proteomics analysis to determine the factors responsible for this. They discover that MCM complex components and some other replicative proteins are downregulated and overall suggest a mechanism whereby downregulation of these essential replication components during a prolonged G1 induce replication stress and ultimate failure of proliferation. They show the impact of cdk4/6 inhibition can be increased by combining with either aneuploidy induction (to indirectly elevate replication stress), aphidicolin (to directly elevate replication stress) or chemotherapy agents that damage DNA. Overall this is a well written and presented manuscript. Data are extremely clearly presented and described clearly within the text. Most appropriate controls were included and the work is performed to a high standard. I have a few comments about the proteomic analysis, and the link between MCM component deregulation and the induction of replication stress:

      - We thank the reviewer for this careful, detailed review, and for their kind comments about our work.

      **Major points:**

      1. Relevance to cancer. I appreciate that examining the mechanism in a diploid line is a sensible place to start. However it remains a bit unclear precisely which aspects of this mechanism might be conserved in cancer. It could be helpful to provide evidence (if it exists) of the impact of cdk4/6 inhibition in tumour cells. For example, are catastrophic mitosis, senescence, etc observed? And is there anything further known about the relationship between tumour mutations such as p53 and clinical response to Cdk4/6i?

      - It is important to point out that senescence is a common outcome of CDK4/6 inhibition in tumour cells, but exactly why tumour cells become senescent is still unclear. There have been many possible explanations proposed (see introduction), but so far, none of these implicate DNA damage. This is surprising for us, considering that DNA damage remains the best-known inducer of senescence and this is how most other broad-spectrum anti-cancer drugs induce permanent cell cycle exit. P53 loss has been associated with CDK4/6i resistance in the clinic, but this has also not previously been linked to genotoxic stress or senescence following CDK4/6 inhibition (see detailed description of this in comment to all reviewers above).** Therefore, our data could help to explain both of these key findings. However, we appreciate the importance of testing these results in breast cancer cells, therefore we will perform these experiments and include the data after revision.

      Also - many of the phenotypes followed in this manuscript vary considerably with the length of G1 and the length of release. Which of these scenarios might mimic in vivo conditions?

      - We see that a prolonged arrest (> 2 days) is necessary to see genotoxic effects in RPE cells. Clinically, palbociclib is administered in 3-week on/1-week off cycles, therefore this is consistent with the possibility that replication stress is induced during the off periods to cause genotoxic damage and cell cycle withdrawal.

      Relating to the downregulation of MCM complex members, and the potential impact on origin licensing, how would this mechanism be manifest in cancer cells that have already deregulated gene transcription programs, and are already experiencing replication stress?

      - We hypothesise that cancer cells with ongoing replication stress maybe more sensitive to the MCM downregulation caused by CDK4/6 inhibition. The rationale is that a reduction in licenced origins would impair the ability of dormant origins to fire in response to replication problems, therefore making elevated levels of replication stress less tolerable. This is consistent with the enhanced effect of CDK4/6 inhibition seen when replication stress is elevated in RPE cells. Moreover, others have shown that experimentally reducing MCM protein levels induces hypersensitivity to replication stress in transformed cell lines such as U2OS and HeLa (Ge et al., 2007; Ibarra et al., 2008). Thus, low MCM levels and reduced origin licensing can contribute to replication failure in cancer cells.

      1. MCM protein levels and proposed impact on chromatin loading and origin licensing. Several MCM components are clearly reduced at the protein level. A chromatin assay (assaying fluorescence of signal remaining after pre-extraction of cytosolic proteins) suggests that MCM loading on chromatin is reduced, and this is taken to suggest a reduction in origin licensing. This is quite an indirect method - and it is difficult to conclude that the reduced chromatin bound fraction really represents a meaningful reduction in origin licensing. It would be more convincing if either positive and negative controls for this assay were included. Moreover it is not clear if this MCM reduction and proposed reduction in licensed origins would actually impact replication in an otherwise unperturbed state? Many more origins are licensed than actually fire during a normal S-phase, so it is not entirely clear that MCM levels could lead directly to replication stress here.

      - Quantifying the non-extractable MCM proteins is in truth the most direct assay for origin licensing (not origin firing) available in human cells. To our knowledge, there are no reports of MCM loading by this or similar assays that are not strongly correlated with origin licensing per se. The reviewer is correct that modest reductions in MCM loading are well-tolerated in the absence of other perturbations. Specifically, Ge et al found no proliferation effects after 50% MCM loading reduction, but any further reduction introduced a proliferation delay (Ge et al., 2007). Of note, the U2OS cells used in that study also have a functional p53 response.

      - Another important point that is worth emphasizing, is that many of the differentially downregulated proteins only function at replication forks (fig.4c). Therefore, we believe that the replication stress is a combined result of poor licencing and reduced levels of replication fork proteins that are needed after the origins fire. We will clarify this point in the revised manuscript.

      1. Loss of MCM protein levels and chromatin loading occurs after 1 day, not 4 days, of Cdk4/6 inhibition. The current proposal (based on evidence from the live cell imaging, and the induction of hallmarks of replication stress in figures 1-3) seems to be that something occurs between 2 and 7 days of cdk4/6i to prevent cells from resuming a normal cell cycle. Thus the proteomics was performed between 2 and 7 days, and MCM proteins identified as major changed proteins between those times. However, according to Western blots and FACS profiles in Figure 4, the major reduction in MCM protein levels, and chromatin loading occurs already at 1 day of of cdk4/6i (Figure 4d,e,f). However, replication stress is not observed after this timepoint (Figure 3) - so this seems to decouple the timings of MCM reduction from induction of replication stress. How can this be reconciled?

      - We agree that some of the observed changes to replisome components are quite considerable after just 1 day of arrest (some of these downregulations such as Cdc6 or phospho-Rb can be attributed to the cell cycle arrest itself - Cdc6 is unstable in G1 - but others, such MCM proteins, are not typically lost during G1). We were initially surprised by this too, considering that the phenotype clearly appears later than 1 day of arrest. It is important to state though, that the levels of almost all replisome components continue to decline as the duration of arrest is extended, eventually falling to considerably lower levels than seen after just 1 day. This is observed for MCM2, MCM3 and PCNA by western (fig.4e,e) and a large number of other replisome components by proteomics (fig.4c, 2 vs 7 days). Even MCM loading, which is 58% reduced after just 1-day arrest, is still reduced even further to just 20% of controls after 7 days (p- Our interpretation of the phenotypic data in light of this, is that replication problems become apparent when the number of licensed origins and the function of the replisome is compromised below a certain threshold; which most likely depends on cell type and, in particular, the levels of endogenous replication stress. So, in RPE cells, 1-day treatment is clearly tolerable, perhaps because there are still enough origins to complete DNA replication successfully. But, importantly, if replication stress is enhanced in these cells then 1-day of palbociclib arrest now starts to cause observable defects. This is evident in Figure 5h, where 1-day palbociclib treatment causes minimal effect on long-term growth on its own, but growth is reduced considerably when replication stress is elevated with genotoxic drugs. We interpret this to mean that the reduction in licenced origins and replisome components observed after 1 day of arrest, starts to become problematic in situations when replication stress is elevated.*

      - This is actually an important point that we will highlight this at revision, because one prediction is that other cells with elevated replication stress (e.g. tumour cells with oncogene-induced replication stress) may begin to see defects after as little as 1-day palbociclib arrest.

      **Minor points:**

      1. All the live cell tracking figures would be even more informative if a quantification of key features (such as a cumulative frequency of S-phase entry, or a mean+SD of time in G1, S and G2) were also presented.

      - We agree this will be useful, and we will include this information after revision.

      1. In Figure 2D the cells released from palbociclib seem to delay longer in G1 until they start to enter S phase, compared to cells co-treated with STLC (Figure 2B). Why would this be? It is difficult to tell if other subtle effects might be present in between the +STCL and -STLC conditions, so additional graphs such as those suggested above might be informative here in particular.

      - Fig.2d shows a representative experiment (50 cells) because it is difficult to interpret these individual cell cycle profiles when more than 50 cells are presented. However, we have all the data from 3 experiments (150 cells), therefore we will also calculate timings as suggested and present this information after revision.

      1. Figure 4f It would be helpful to see the FACS plot for at least one of the conditions quantified in the graph as a comparison.

      - These plots will be included after revision

      1. MCM2 protein is not down in p53 wt, but is reduced in p53 KO cells - why is this? And why is MCM2 not impacted when the other MCM complex members are?

      - We think perhaps there has been a mistake in interpreting these graphs. MCM2 is actually slightly lower in WT than KO cells at 1 days, and similar at 4 and 7 days (Fig.4d,e). MCM2 is also reduced slightly more than MCM3 (fig.4d,e) and MCM2, 3, 4, and 5 are all reduced by similar extents between 2 and 7 days palbociclib arrest (30-40% reductions; Fig.4c).

      Inducing aneuploidy with reversine to elevate replication stress may result in additional aneuploidy-related stresses that confound this interpretation. For example, aneuploidy per se is known to elevate p21 and p53 levels, and chromosome mis-segregation could elevate DNA damage. For these reasons these experiments are not as compelling as the direct elevation of replication stress using aphidicolin.

      - We agree that the aneuploidy experiment could have many different interpretations, and only one of these relates specifically to replication stress. This was also commented on by reviewer 3, so we feel it is best to remove this data and just keep the data on drugs that affect replication stress or DNA damage directly. We will address the effects of aneuploidy more extensively in a separate study.

      **Interesting points to follow up/add more mechanism**

      1. What is mechanism of protein downregulation of MCM etc? Was gene transcription impacted, or is this a question of protein stability? Depletion of one subunit can destabilise the complex leading to protein loss of the other MCM subunits, so perhaps this effect could be due to downregulation of a single MCM complex member.
      2. Are these findings specific to Cdk4/6 inhibitors, or would another means or arresting cells in G1 have the same impact?

      Both of these points are interesting questions and they are actually the focus of an entirely separate study that is ongoing. In particular, we are working on the mechanism(s) of MCM and replisome downregulation.

      Reviewer #1 (Significance (Required)): The central question of the paper is an important one so this work would be of interest to many in the clinical and preclinical fields, and also to the cell cycle and replication stress fields.

      - We thank the reviewer for this, and we agree that linking CDK4/6 inhibitors to genotoxic stress is important both for our understanding of cell cycle control and for cancer treatment. We are actually amazed that these drugs have not previously been linked to genotoxic stress, given that they appear to have broad pan-cancer activity and all other broad-spectrum anti-cancer drug work by causing genotoxic stress.

      Reviewer #2 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)): In this paper, Saurin and colleagues investigate the effects of CDK4/6 inhibitors on cell cycle arrest and re-entry. The authors report that long-term G1 arrest induced by CDK4/6i interferes with DNA replication during the next cell cycle, leading to DNA damage and mitotic catastrophe. Additionally, this compromised replication state sensitizes cells to chemotherapeutics that enhance replication stress. The major claims advanced in this paper are well-supported by the presented evidence. Well I have several questions regarding the significance (see below), I have only a few minor points regarding the methodology. 1) Regarding the down-regulation of MCM components induced by long-term palbo treatment shown in Figure 4: MCM levels are tightly regulated by cell cycle phase. I could imagine that this gene expression change may be a consequence of, for instance, 2 days CDK4/6i treatment arresting 95% of cells in G1 while 7 days of CDK4/6i treatment causes a 99.9% G1 arrest. The data in Figure 1B seems to argue against this hypothesis, but how was that data generated? Can the authors rule out a subtle change in S-phase % over 7 days in palbo? Alternately, is the down-regulation of MCM genes a consequence of cells entering senescence?

      - We have performed extensive long-term movies with these cells, and we never see cells dividing or exiting G1 after the first day of palbociclib treatment. This is illustrated in fig.1b which demonstrates that 100% of FUCCI cells are in G1 (Red) at each of the timepoints. This will be clarified in the legend. In addition, MCM protein levels do not actually oscillate with cell cycle phase (Matson et al., 2017; Méndez and Stillman, 2000), although their mRNA levels certainly do (Leone et al., 1998; Whitfield et al., 2002). Furthermore, RPE and mammalian fibroblasts retain MCM proteins after 2 days of growth factor withdrawal despite transcriptional repression of their respective genes **(Cook et al., 2002; Matson et al., 2019)

      - We see significant changes in MCM levels at a time when cells are still permissive to enter the cell cycle following drug release. Therefore, MCM reduction is not a consequence of senescence. Rather, we believe that it is one of the causes of cell cycle withdrawal following the subsequent S-phase.

      2) For the drug studies presented in figure 5, it is important that the authors perform the appropriate statistical comparisons and analyses to demonstrate true synergy. The authors show that combining palbo and certain chemotherapies causes a greater decrease in clonogenicity than palbo alone. This may or may not be surprising (see below) - but this by itself is insufficient to support the claim that palbo "sensitizes" cells to genotoxins. If you treat cells with two poisons, in 9 out of 10 cases, you'll kill more cells than if you treat cells with one poison alone. But that could be due to totally independent effects - see, for instance, Palmer and Sorger Cell 2017. There are several well-established statistical methods for investigating drug synergy - like Loewe Additivity or Bliss Independence - and one of these methods should be used to analyze the drug-combination studies presented in Figure 5.

      - This analysis will be performed at revision

      Reviewer #2 (Significance (Required)): While this study is a comprehensive analysis of the effects of CDK4/6i in RPE1 cells in 2d culture, I am not convinced of its broader significance. 1) So far as I can tell, the authors do not cite any studies establishing that CDK4/6i results in a significant increase in G1-arrested cells in treated patients. What evidence is there for this claim? I am aware that this has been demonstrated in xenografts and in mouse models, but I could not find evidence for this from actual clinical studies. Here, I am reminded of the very interesting work from Beth Weaver's group on paclitaxel - Zasadil STM 2014. While it had been widely assumed that paclitaxel causes a mitotic arrest, they actually show that this drug kills tumor cells by promoting mitotic catastrophe without inducing a complete mitotic arrest. Similarly, in the absence of existing clinical data, the underlying assumption regarding the effects of CDK4/6i that motivates this paper may not be accurate. For instance, if CDK4/6i acts through the immune system (as suggested by Jean Zhao and others), then this G1 arrest phenotype could be entirely secondary to the drug's actual mechanism-of-action.

      - We are very surprised by the suggestion that CDK4/6 inhibitors may not need to cause a G1 arrest in patient tumours. We appreciate that that these inhibitors effect the immune system in many different ways to combat tumourigenesis, but there is also an overwhelming amount of evidence that a G1 arrest in patient tumours is critical for the overall response. Perhaps the most striking evidence is the fact that RB loss in tumours is one of the best-characterised mechanism of resistance in breast cancer patients (Condorelli et al., 2018; Costa et al., 2020; Li et al., 2018; O'Leary et al., 2018; Wander et al., 2020). In addition, tumours types that typically achieve a poor CDK4/6i-induced G1 arrest in preclinical models, such as TNBCs, also exhibit a poor response to CDK4/6i therapy in patients. Recently a luminal androgen receptor subtype of TNBCs has been identified that responds to CDK4/6 inhibition, due to low CDK2 activity which can otherwise drive G1 progression independently of CDK4/6 in basal-like TNBCs (Asghar et al., 2017; Liu et al., 2017). This rationalises combination therapies that converge to inhibit G1 more effectively in this subtype (e.g. AR antagonist + CDK4/6 inhibition (Christenson et al., 2021)), which is akin to the oestrogen receptor and CDK4/6 combinations that have proven so successful at treating HR+ breast cancer. Many other combinations are also currently in trials based on the same premise that inhibiting upstream G1/S regulators can enhancing the response by inducing a more efficient G1 arrest (MEK, PI3K, AKT, mTOR) (Klein et al., 2018).

      - In response to the specific question about clinical G1 arrest in patients, tumour samples from breast cancer patients shows a decrease in S-phase specific markers pRB and TopoIIa following abemaciclib treatment (Patnaik et al., 2016) and there is extensive evidence of a profound cell cycle arrest following CDK4/6 inhibition as judged by staining with the mitotic marker Ki67 (Hurvitz et al., 2020; Johnston et al., 2019; Ma et al., 2017; Prat et al., 2020). Whilst this does not formally prove a G1-arrest is specifical responsible for this overall cell cycle arrest, that is the implicit assumption given the known mechanism of action of CDK4/6 inhibitors in cells.

      2) How relevant are RPE1 cells? Clinically, CDK4/6 inhibitors are combined with fulvestrant (which would not have an effect in RPE1), and the activity that they exhibit in breast cancer has not been matched in any other cancer types. The underlying biology of HR+ breast cancer (particularly regarding the regulation of CCND1 expression and the G1/S transition by estrogen) may not be recapitulated by other cell types. Moreover, the artificial media used in cell culture experiments may alter the regulation of the G1/S transition. I do not believe that these experiments conducted in RPE1 cells in 2d cell culture are generalizable.

      - Fulvestrant/tamoxifen are effective because they enhance the efficiency of a CDK4/6i arrest by reducing Cyclin D expression to enhance Cyclin D-CDK4/6 inhibition. That convergence onto the G1/S transition is why ER antagonists enhance the CDK4/6 response. i.e. CDK activity is inhibited and CycD transcription is reduced, therefore this double hit allows breast cancer cells to arrest in G1 more efficiently than healthy tissue which is not oestrogen-responsive (this provides yet more evidence the G1 arrest in tumours is crucial for the clinical response). It is true that RPE1 cells do not respond to the oestrogen treatment, but that is not really relevant here in our opinion. We are not testing the efficiency of a G1 arrest beyond the initial characterisation in figure 1. We are mainly examining how cells respond to that G1 arrest afterwards. It could be that components of the cell culture media affect that downstream response in unanticipated ways, but we feel that is very unlikely.

      - Having said that, we agree that the general point on the relevance of RPE cells is a valid one, and we will repeat key experiment in breast cancer cells. We suspect that the reason replisome components become widely downregulated during a G1 arrest will not be a specific phenomenon that is characteristic of one particular cell type. Nevertheless, it is important to validate that assumption.

      3) I am confused about the effects of CDK4/6i on genotoxin sensitivity. Replogle and Amon PNAS 2020 and several citations contained therein report that CDK4/6i protects cells from DNA damage. Moreover, trilaciclib has recently received FDA approval for its ability to protect the bone marrow from cytotoxic chemotherapy! Is this a question of dose timing/intensity? The FDA approval of trilaciclib for this indication should certainly be discussed. This underscores my concern that certain findings in this paper are RPE1/tissue culture artifacts, with limited generalizability.

      - The studies the reviewer refers to demonstrate that halting cell cycle progression can protect cells from genotoxic drugs that cause DNA damage during S-phase. However, we can only think that the reviewer must have missed the critical point here: The genotoxic agents in figure 5 were added after washout from CDK4/6 inhibition (we will highlight this more clearly in the revised manuscript). After drug removal, cells enter S-phase with replication competence problems (as a result of the CDK4/6 arrest) and they then experience additional problems during S-phase (as a result of the genotoxic agents included following washout). These effects synergise to enhance replication stress, a key conclusion of figure 5.

      - This does is in no way support that notion that “findings in this paper are RPE1/tissue culture artefacts with limited generalizability”. Experiments in 2D tissue culture have furnished some of the most important fundamental discoveries in cancer research. It remains to be seen whether our study will cause a paradigm shift in our thinking about how CDK4/6 inhibitors work, but we believe that it may do. We appreciate that this will not become clear until our findings are followed up and validated in preclinical models and human disease, but that does not, in our opinion, make them any less valid at this stage. As stated earlier, we will confirm this is not a RPE1 cell phenomenon, but if this holds up in breast cancer cells then we believe our data will have an important impact on future preclinical and clinical work in this area.

      **Referees cross-commenting** I think that we largely agree that RPE1 is not a great model for this study, and repeating certain key experiments in an ER+ BC line like MCF7 may be warranted.

      - We agree that it would add value to examine our findings in BC cells, therefore we will address this point at revision by repeating key experiments in BC cells.

      Additionally, I wanted to draw attention to the fact that, to my knowledge, the evidence for palbociclib inducing a G1 arrest in patients is incredibly spotty. For early-stage breast tumors where palbo is most effective, nearly all tumor cells are in G1 anyway. I think that it makes the most sense that palbo is actually working through immune modulation or through some secondary mechanism, rather than enforcing a G1 arrest. So I'm not sure about the premise of this study.

      - As discussed above, there is extensive evidence that proliferation is reduced in response to CDK4/6 inhibition in patients (Hurvitz et al., 2020; Johnston et al., 2019; Ma et al., 2017; Patnaik et al., 2016; Prat et al., 2020). We agree that proliferation in patient tumours can be slower than observed in preclinical models, and there can be many reasons for this, especially within solid tumour where hypoxia is a major factor that limits proliferation. However, we do not agree that this implies that drugs that target these tumours do not act on proliferating cells. In fact, most other broad-spectrum non-targeted chemotherapies used to treat cancer also work by targeting dividing cells, and many of these are also more effective in early stage breast cancer. In addition, and as discussed extensively above, there are many studies supporting the interpretation that a G1 arrest is critical for CDK4/6i response in breast cancer patients. Considering all of these points, we strongly believe that the premise of our study – to characterise why a G1 arrest becomes irreversible – is valid and important. This point Is also made in numerous recent reviews which also highlight that this key mechanistic information is currently lacking (Goel et al., 2018; Klein et al., 2018; Knudsen and Witkiewicz, 2017; Wagner and Gil, 2020).

      - We do not disagree that the immune effects are important in patients – indeed, we cited and discussed these studies in our manuscript. However, we would argue that this works together with a G1 arrest in tumour cells. The G1 arrest most likely induces a senescent response that stimulates immune engagement and tumour clearance. These multifactorial effect of CDK4/6 inhibition, on both the tumour and the immune system, are discussed at length in these reviews: (Goel et al., 2018; Klein et al., 2018; Wagner and Gil, 2020).

      Reviewer #3 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)): The authors clearly demonstrate, with appropriate techniques, that cells treated with clinically relevant CDK4/6 inhibitors lead to a cell cycle arrest, that is only partly reversible. The authors also demonstrate clearly that release from a cdk4/6i arrest leads to two phenomena: the inability to initiate S-phase, and a cell cycle exit in G2. The inability to initiate S-phase is partly dependent on p53, the cell cycle exit is fully dependent on p53. In the absence of p53, cells that are released from a CDK4/6i block frequently enter mitosis with unrepaired DNA lesions. The authors clearly demonstrate that cdk4/6 inhibition leads to down regulation of key replication genes. Combined treatment with genotoxic agents further exaggerates the phenotype of cell cycle exit upon cdk4/6 inhibition. **Specific comments:** Figure 1B: the loss of reversibility remains at approximately 50%. Does the phenotype of replication protein depletion not happen in the 50% of cells that do restart the cell cycle? it would be good if the authors could experimentally address the heterogeneity that is observed.

      - This is actually a result of the fixed analysis use in fig.1B. The irreversibility is much higher than 50% after long durations of arrest, but at the 24h timepoint used in this fixed assay many cells have exited G1 but not yet had a chance to revert back into G1 from S/G2 phase. We will reinforce this point in the legend. This highlights the value of our extensive live cell assays that can fully capture cell cycle profiles, and accurately determine when cell do/don’t enter or withdraw from different stages of the cell cycle. We believe that an overreliance of fixed endpoints in previous studies may have contributed to the genotoxic effects in S-phase being missed previously: many studies show senescence after drug washout, but the cause of that senescence only becomes apparent when you observe that cells withdraw with defects after the first S-phase.

      Figure 1C: the G1 state after S-phase. The read-out here is loss of the Fucci reporter geminin. Does observation reflect p53-dependent activation of the APC/C-Cdh1 prematerely? this is a known effect of persistent DNA damage in G2 cells.

      - Yes, we expect that APC/C-Cdh1 activation causes geminin and cyclin degradation when cells permanently withdraw from the cell cycle from G2. This is likely caused by p53-dependent p21 activation in response to DNA replication defects, as has been shown previously in direct response to DNA damage.

      Figure 2: there seem to be two distinct phenotypes when comparing p53-wt and p53-KO: the ability to initiate S-phase after CDK4/6i removal (which is largely gone in p53 KO, only slight number after 7d treatment). And cell cycle-drop-out after S-phase (this seems to be fully p53 dependent). I am not sure if a single mechanisms explains both.

      - We agree that there are p53-dependent effects on speed/extent of S-phase entry and on the resulting withdrawal from G2. It may not be a single mechanism that connected these effects, although they may be related. Our manuscript mainly focusses on the DNA replication defects and cell cycle withdrawal, but in the future, it will be important to also characterise what causes the delay in cell cycle re-entry following CDK4/6 inhibition. We suspect that this could reflect differing depths of quiescence, potentially caused by p21, which would explain the p53-dependence.

      Figure 3a: related to the proviso point. it is unclear if the p21 up regulation happens in G1 or G2 cells, and related to the inability of cells to initiate S-phase, or the cell cycle exit in G2.

      - This is a good point, and as discussed above, we suspect both maybe related to p21. We will examine p21 levels during a G1 arrest to compare to the levels seen following release, and we will include this data after revision.

      It is stated that a combined action of the p53 pathways and ATR signaling prevent mitotic entry in RPE-wt cells. However, ATR should also be able to do this in p53-KO cells. Does cdk4/6i inhibiton also down-regulation of ATR pathway components?

      - We do not detect downregulation of any ATRi components in the mass spec data comparing 2 and 7 day palbociclib arrest.

      Following the observation that CDK4/6i leads to replication stress, I would hypothesise that these cells would be very sensitive to agents that inhibit the response to replication stress (inhibitors of Wee1, ATR or Chk1). Yet, these agents work preferentially in p53-deficient cells, and require cell cycle progression. Sequential treatment with CDK4/6 inhibition followed by cell cycle checkpoint inhibition may help in uncovering the phenotype.

      - This is a good point and we will perform experiments with ATR inhibitors after release from CDK4/6 inhibition to examine if this enhances the phenotype.

      The authors increase the amount of replication stress using chemotherapeutic approaches or MPS1 inhibitors. The chemotherapeutic approaches are relevant clinically, but mechanistically it don't understand this beyond adding up treatments that lead to replication defects.

      - We agree that the main value of these experiments is not to provide mechanistic insight, but rather to demonstrate that CDK4/6 inhibition can enhance the effect of current genotoxic drugs. Considering CDK4/6 inhibitors are well-tolerated, this could represent an effective way to enhance the tumour-selectivity of current genotoxic therapeutics. This has been suggested previously in a pancreatic cancer study (Salvador-Barbero et al., 2020), but the reasons given for synergy were different (DNA damage repair) and the order of drugs exposure was reversed (genotoxic before CDK4/6i). This underscores the potential importance of our new data.

      - From a mechanistic point of view, these data do still suggest that CDK4/6i and genotoxic drugs converge onto the same replication stress phenotype, thereby supporting our overall conclusions. One interpretation is that a reduction in replisome levels and licenced replication origins impairs the ability of cells to overcome replication problems induced by chemotherapy drugs. Conceptualising how these drugs may synergize in this way will be important in designing new studies and trials to address this synergy more broadly.

      The aneuploidy treatment is a bit weird, because it may trigger a p53 response, before the cells are released from a cdk4.6i arrest. besides, mps1 inhibition does more than just cause replication stress and is not very clinically relevant in this context.

      - We agree that the aneuploidy experiment could have many different interpretations, and only one of these relates specifically to replication stress. This was also commented on by reviewer 1, so we feel it is best to remove this data and just keep the data on drugs that affect replication stress or DNA damage directly. We will address the effects of aneuploidy more extensively in a separate study.

      Reviewer #3 (Significance (Required)): In their manuscript entitled: Crozier and co-workers studied the effects of CDK4/6 inhibition on cell growth. CDK4/6 inhibitors are currently used in the treatment for hormone-positive breast cancers, but their cell biological effects on tumor cells remain incompletely clear, which may hamper the further clinical development of these drugs for breast cancer or other cancers. Inhibition of CDK4/6 is known to trigger a cell cycle arrest, and it is currently unclear how this could lead to long-term tumor control. This manuscript addresses the question why cdk4/6 inhibitors cause long-term cell cycle exit.

      - We thank the reviewer for this simple description of our work, which we think pitches the significance very clearly. There are currently 15 different CDK4/6 inhibitors in clinical trials, and more than 100 further trials using the 3 currently licenced inhibitors in a wide variety of tumour types and drug combinations. Although the clinical work on these drugs is huge, it is unclear how they cause long-term cell cycle arrest and we now link this to genotoxic stress for the first time. This explains clearly why this work is potentially very significant. We agree, however, that the main caveat is the need to demonstrate our findings are also applicable to breast cancer cells. But, if this is the case, we believe this would represent a paradigm shift in our understanding of how these drugs work, especially considering that genomic damage is an universal route to prolonged cell cycle exit in response to almost all other broad-spectrum anti-cancer drugs.

      There are two issues that affect the significance of the findings: the authors start their manuscript with a strong translational/clinical issue, but solely use RPE1 cell lines to address this issue2. it remains unclear if their observations hold true in breast cancer models. it would be advised to repeat key findings in a hormone receptor-positive breast cancer model.

      - We will examine the applicability of our findings in breast cancer cells and include this work at revision.

      the effects of CDK4/6 inhibitors are observed in clinically relevant doses. however, the effects are observed upon switch-like wash out. this does not per se reflect the pharmacodynamics of more gradual increase and decrease of drug concentrations in tuner cells. by washing out the CDK4/6 inhibitors. the significant of this work would be greater if cell cycle exit with replication stress would be observed either in clinical samples or in vivo treated cancer cells.

      - We agree that the significance of this work will ultimately only become fully apparent if replication stress is confirmed in clinical samples or in vivo. We envisage that our study will stimulate exactly this type of analysis in future. However, we would also add that the gradual increase/decrease in drug concentrations seen in patients is still likely to lead to switch like cell cycle re-entry given the switch-like nature of cell cycle controls at the G1/S transition. So, the timing may be different, but we would not predict that the downstream response in S-phase would be. However, whether replication stress is seen during drug-free washout periods in patients is clearly a critical future question, as we highlight in the discussion.

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  28. Feb 2021
    1. There's just dirt and shit and urine and blood and smashed brains. There's dust and fleas and bloody whites and roaches and dogs trained to bite black people in the arse. There's venereal disease and beer and lunacy and just causes. 74 There's technology to drop on your head wherever you stop to take a leak. There's white shit in our leaders and white shit in our dreams and white shit in our history and white shit on our hands in anything we build or pray for. Even if that was okay there's still sell-outs and informers and stuck-up students and get-rich-fast bastards and live-now-think-Iater punks who are just as bad, man. Just as bad as white shit. There's a lot of these bastards hanging around in London waiting to come back here and become cabinet ministers. The only cabinet they'll be in is a coffin. Don't get me wrong. I'm a pessimist, but I still add two and two and walk to the seven, smiling. You find friends and things happen to them, and the thunderstorm in their minds is staring incredibly out of their eyes. You mind your own business and the business springs up and hits you right between the eyes. You bang your head on the wall and the wall crumbles and there's another wall and you wake up with the whole Earth one big headache inside your head. You tuck your tail between your legs and some enterprising vandal sets fire to your fur, as you streak through the dry grass of your fears. And when you stop by that wall to figure out the next poem some character empties a heavy chamberpot of slogans right on top of your head. There's a lot of anger gets you nowhere.

      (pg. 74, 75) This is one of the most intriguing passages throughout the story. It seems that so many important details, intricacies, and descriptions are mentioned that they almost fully describe the way that Rhodesians (most particularly young ones, with bright futures, and dreams) felt throughout this period of Oppression and White Supremacy. A thing that caught my attention almost immediately is the use of the word "shit" numerous times. It is very intriguing as to why Philip starts this monologue with differentiating people from animals and why there is nothing that special to being human. Afterwards, he mentions the word "shit" in regards to the leaders, the dreams of the people, the history, their hands, etc. I am pretty sure that this whole passage is what Rhodesians despised the most about their situation – not that they were unable to do anything about their future, but rather the idea that their future couldn't do anything for them – they are just trapped in an endless cycle of coping with outside factors that no citizen should be forced to deal with. He continues to describe basically why their situation would not change anytime soon: "There's a lot of bastards hanging around in London waiting to come back here and become cabinet ministers." (pg. 75). Honestly, this is very true, even nowadays. However, what is more interesting is what he says afterwards: "The only cabinet they'll be in is a coffin." (pg. 75). Thus, this makes me believe that people indeed are ready for change and that they will not cope with being oppressed or ruled by anyone anymore, whether the leaders are Black or White. What he continues to say about how people mind their own business, but they still can't be left alone and how there is always another obstacle you have to pass until the day you die. This represent the tragedy, helplessness, and anger that people have towards the life they have to live. As Philip says: "There's a lot of anger that gets you nowhere.". Thus, this represents a feeling of both giving up or trying to find a more rational solution for the people to deal with their situation. Overall, I think there is a lot of significance in this passage, and the fact that very central ideas are stated explicitly makes it both unique to the whole story, yet fitting perfectly into the timeline and natural course of events of the story.

  29. Dec 2020
    1. Maurice Richard, left, played with a fire that made him one of hockey's all-time greats but could also land him in trouble — most dramatically in March of 1955. (The Canadian Press)0 commentsEditor's note: This is part of a series of stories remembering some of Canada's WB_wombat_top sports heroes and moments as the country marks its 150th birthday in 2017. We've also revisited the lives of baseball hall of famer Ferguson Jenkins, speed skater Gaetan Boucher, skier Nancy Greene, figure skater Barbara Ann Scott, distance runner Tom Longboat, Kentucky Derby winner Northern Dancer, sprinter Harry Jerome and auto racing's Villeneuve family. We've also explored Babe Ruth's Canadian origins. Find all of CBC Sports' Canada 150 stories here. Maurice Richard said many times that, in order to understand the events leading up to the riot of March 17, 1955 that forever bears his name, it was crucial to know how violent the National Hockey League was in those days. Sticks were high, fists flew, blood often smeared the ice, and the owners thought this was all manly and a great way to sell tickets. It's also crucial to accept that you cannot really comprehend the Richard Riot unless you lived through and knew: The power of the English seigneurs in Montreal, who many angry French believed to be modern economic descendants of New France's landowners that treated their farmers as serfs before the system was abolished in 1854. How Francophone players in the NHL, almost exclusively the property of the Montreal Canadiens, believed they were more harshly treated by league president Clarence Campbell — especially Richard — when it came time to dish out suspensions and fines. How Richard himself, the Rocket, was so much a part of Quebec society that he transcended even organized religion. Red Storey, a former referee and long-time hockey commentator, once said of him that, in Quebec, "hockey was bigger than the Church, and Rocket Richard was bigger than the Pope." Roch Carrier perhaps explained it best in his famous book The Hockey Sweater. What we can know today are the basic facts. The NHL was a provincial, parochial six-team affair in 1955, featuring barely over 100 players. Many of them hated each other with the type of passion only love can understand, as paleontologist Steven Jay Gould once observed of 1950s New York baseball. Hockey's greatest player at that time was Richard, who in 1945 became the first to score 50 goals in a season (in 50 games, no less). He was a talent so large that Conn Smythe, owner of the Toronto Maple Leafs, offered a million dollars to the Canadiens for him (about $10 million today). Richard's coal-black eyes glowed with defiance, danger and pure disgust for losing. At the Boston Garden on March 13, 1955, bespectacled Bruins defender Hal Laycoe had another of his endless run-ins with Richard, leaving the Habs' star cut on the head after a high stick. A brawl ensued, and the Rocket broke his CCM stick over Laycoe's back. So far, pretty normal for those days. The rest will always be disputed. Conspiracy theories Richard's story had linesman Cliff Thompson holding him back, arms pinned, while Laycoe was allowed to smack away. Rocket said he warned the linesman three times to let him go before he finally clocked the official.  Laycoe's story had Thompson trying to wrestle both of them and, in order to get at the Bruins player, Richard smacked the official. Either way, Maurice Richard was in trouble.  Campbell was already infuriated with the Montreal star, who had a column (Le Tour de Chapeau) ghost written for a French weekly in Montreal that regularly attacked the NHL boss (he was forced to drop it by the league), and No. 9 had already previously walloped a referee. The president really worked for the six owners, five of whom wanted the book thrown at Richard for the Boston incident.  Detroit's Jack Adams knew the road to the Stanley Cup ran that year up St. Catherine Street and, earlier in the season, his forward Ted Lindsay had been dispatched for four games after punching a Toronto fan. Therefore, there was precedent. Conspiracy theories now abound, especially one that says the "hearing" with the players involved a few days later was a sham because the decision had been made. But the fact was the Rocket was suspended for the final three games of the season plus the entire Stanley Cup playoffs.  137 arrests Montreal went nuts, both French and English, and with Detroit coming in for a St. Patrick's Day game at the Forum, revenge was on some fans' minds. However, nothing may have happened if Campbell hadn't made a tactical error — he showed up to the game (10 minutes late) with his secretary (future wife) and took his regular place. Les Habitants trailed 4-1 at this point as the home side had their minds on something else, and that didn't help matters either. Garbage and various fruit rained down on the NHL boss, one man raced up and smeared a tomato on Campbell, and less than a minute later a homemade tear gas bomb went off. "I have often seen Rocket Richard fill the Forum," said Dick Irvin, Jr., later the legendary Montreal play-by-play and colour man, and at that time the son of the team's coach. "But that's the first time I've ever seen him empty it." Out on the street, the largest riot since Conscription was passed in 1944 (bringing in the draft for the final year of the Second World War) broke out along a seven-block length of Rue Ste. Catherine, featuring overturned cars, smashed windows, a shot fired from somewhere and 137 arrests. CBC Radio Archive: The Richard Riot It went on most of the night with fears of a repeat a few hours later as it grew dark again — only quelled when Richard went on radio and TV, asking for calm. He would reluctantly take his punishment. Since then, larger thinkers on the Quebec scene have argued whether this was the beginning of Quebec's Quiet Revolution — officially pegged for 1960 with the election of Jean Lesage as Premier — or perhaps just the end of a time when hockey was more important than politics, as the latter began to take hold among French Canadian youth. Millions of words have been written. Millions more will be. These final words, however, are of the sport.  After the riot, the NHL began to crack down on all-out brawls (especially carrying your stick into one), though it would take another 25 years for the changes to take effect with the institution of the third-man-in rule.  And the Rocket, who always refused to align himself with a political party, would lead his teammates to five straight Stanley Cup victories until retiring in the spring of 1960 with 544 regular-season goals to his credit.  Unbeaten, unbowed, unrepentant — still forever proud. CBC's Journalistic Standards and Practices|About CBC SportsReport Typo or ErrorRelated StoriesCanada 150 Babe Ruth: Made in Canada?Canada 150 The Villeneuves: In the name of the fatherCanada 150 Harry Jerome: Race against timeCanada 150 Northern Dancer: Canadian stallionCanada 150 Tom Longboat: A man called EverythingCanada 150 Barbara Ann Scott: Queen of the iceCanada 150 Nancy Greene: Ahead by a centuryCanada 150 Gaetan Boucher: Memories of SarajevoCanada 150 Ferguson Jenkins: A life of wins and loss

      I find the differences in the hockey uniforms from then until now pretty interesting.

  30. Oct 2020
    1. The first time I opened Peter Singer’s “Animal Liberation,” I was dining alone at the Palm, trying to enjoy a rib-eye steak cooked medium-rare. If this sounds like a good recipe for cognitive dissonance (if not indigestion), that was sort of the idea. Preposterous as it might seem, to supporters of animal rights, what I was doing was tantamount to reading “Uncle Tom’s Cabin” on a plantation in the Deep South in 1852. Singer and the swelling ranks of his followers ask us to imagine a future in which people will look back on my meal, and this steakhouse, as relics of an equally backward age. Eating animals, wearing animals, experimenting on animals, killing animals for sport: all these practices, so resolutely normal to us, will be seen as the barbarities they are, and we will come to view “speciesism”–a neologism I had encountered before only in jokes–as a form of discrimination as indefensible as racism or anti-Semitism. Even in 1975, when “Animal Liberation” was first published, Singer, an Australian philosopher now teaching at Princeton, was confident that he had the wind of history at his back. The recent civil rights past was prologue, as one liberation movement followed on the heels of another. Slowly but surely, the white man’s circle of moral consideration was expanded to admit first blacks, then women, then homosexuals. In each case, a group once thought to be so different from the prevailing “we” as to be undeserving of civil rights was, after a struggle, admitted to the club. Now it was animals’ turn. That animal liberation is the logical next step in the forward march of moral progress is no longer the fringe idea it was back in 1975. A growing and increasingly influential movement of philosophers, ethicists, law professors and activists are convinced that the great moral struggle of our time will be for the rights of animals. So far the movement has scored some of its biggest victories in Europe. Earlier this year, Germany became the first nation to grant animals a constitutional right: the words “and animals” were added to a provision obliging the state to respect and protect the dignity of human beings. The farming of animals for fur was recently banned in England. In several European nations, sows may no longer be confined to crates nor laying hens to “battery cages”–stacked wired cages so small the birds cannot stretch their wings. The Swiss are amending their laws to change the status of animals from “things” to “beings.” Though animals are still very much “things” in the eyes of American law, change is in the air. Thirty-seven states have recently passed laws making some forms of animal cruelty a crime, 21 of them by ballot initiative. Following protests by activists, McDonald’s and Burger King forced significant improvements in the way the U.S. meat industry slaughters animals. Agribusiness and the cosmetics and apparel industries are all struggling to defuse mounting public concerns over animal welfare. Once thought of as a left-wing concern, the movement now cuts across ideological lines. Perhaps the most eloquent recent plea on behalf of animals, a new book called “Dominion,” was written by a former speechwriter for President Bush. And once outlandish ideas are finding their way into mainstream opinion. A recent Zogby poll found that 51 percent of Americans believe that primates are entitled to the same rights as human children. What is going on here? A certain amount of cultural confusion, for one thing. For at the same time many people seem eager to extend the circle of our moral consideration to animals, in our factory farms and laboratories we are inflicting more suffering on more animals than at any time in history. One by one, science is dismantling our claims to uniqueness as a species, discovering that such things as culture, tool making, language and even possibly self-consciousness are not the exclusive domain of Homo sapiens. Yet most of the animals we kill lead lives organized very much in the spirit of Descartes, who famously claimed that animals were mere machines, incapable of thought or feeling. There’s a schizoid quality to our relationship with animals, in which sentiment and brutality exist side by side. Half the dogs in America will receive Christmas presents this year, yet few of us pause to consider the miserable life of the pig–an animal easily as intelligent as a dog–that becomes the Christmas ham. We tolerate this disconnect because the life of the pig has moved out of view. When’s the last time you saw a pig? (Babe doesn’t count.) Except for our pets, real animals–animals living and dying–no longer figure in our everyday lives. Meat comes from the grocery store, where it is cut and packaged to look as little like parts of animals as possible. The disappearance of animals from our lives has opened a space in which there’s no reality check, either on the sentiment or the brutality. This is pretty much where we live now, with respect to animals, and it is a space in which the Peter Singers and Frank Perdues of the world can evidently thrive equally well. Several years ago, the English critic John Berger wrote an essay, “Why Look at Animals?” in which he suggested that the loss of everyday contact between ourselves and animals–and specifically the loss of eye contact–has left us deeply confused about the terms of our relationship to other species. That eye contact, always slightly uncanny, had provided a vivid daily reminder that animals were at once crucially like and unlike us; in their eyes we glimpsed something unmistakably familiar (pain, fear, tenderness) and something irretrievably alien. Upon this paradox people built a relationship in which they felt they could both honor and eat animals without looking away. But that accommodation has pretty much broken down; nowadays, it seems, we either look away or become vegetarians. For my own part, neither option seemed especially appetizing. Which might explain how I found myself reading “Animal Liberation” in a steakhouse. This is not something I’d recommend if you’re determined to continue eating meat. Combining rigorous philosophical argument with journalistic description, “Animal Liberation” is one of those rare books that demand that you either defend the way you live or change it. Because Singer is so skilled in argument, for many readers it is easier to change. His book has converted countless thousands to vegetarianism, and it didn’t take long for me to see why: within a few pages, he had succeeded in throwing me on the defensive. Singer’s argument is disarmingly simple and, if you accept its premises, difficult to refute. Take the premise of equality, which most people readily accept. Yet what do we really mean by it? People are not, as a matter of fact, equal at all–some are smarter than others, better looking, more gifted. “Equality is a moral idea,” Singer points out, “not an assertion of fact.” The moral idea is that everyone’s interests ought to receive equal consideration, regardless of “what abilities they may possess.” Fair enough; many philosophers have gone this far. But fewer have taken the next logical step. “If possessing a higher degree of intelligence does not entitle one human to use another for his or her own ends, how can it entitle humans to exploit nonhumans for the same purpose?” This is the nub of Singer’s argument, and right around here I began scribbling objections in the margin. But humans differ from animals in morally significant ways. Yes they do, Singer acknowledges, which is why we shouldn’t treat pigs and children alike. Equal consideration of interests is not the same as equal treatment, he points out: children have an interest in being educated; pigs, in rooting around in the dirt. But where their interests are the same, the principle of equality demands they receive the same consideration. And the one all-important interest that we share with pigs, as with all sentient creatures, is an interest in avoiding pain. Here Singer quotes a famous passage from Jeremy Bentham, the 18th-century utilitarian philosopher, that is the wellspring of the animal rights movement. Bentham was writing in 1789, soon after the French colonies freed black slaves, granting them fundamental rights. “The day may come,” he speculates, “when the rest of the animal creation may acquire those rights.” Bentham then asks what characteristic entitles any being to moral consideration. “Is it the faculty of reason or perhaps the faculty of discourse?” Obviously not, since “a full-grown horse or dog is beyond comparison a more rational, as well as a more conversable animal, than an infant.” He concludes: “The question is not, Can they reason? nor, Can they talk? but, Can they suffer?” Bentham here is playing a powerful card philosophers call the “argument from marginal cases,” or A.M.C. for short. It goes like this: there are humans–infants, the severely retarded, the demented–whose mental function cannot match that of a chimpanzee. Even though these people cannot reciprocate our moral attentions, we nevertheless include them in the circle of our moral consideration. So on what basis do we exclude the chimpanzee? Because he’s a chimp, I furiously scribbled in the margin, and they’re human! For Singer that’s not good enough. To exclude the chimp from moral consideration simply because he’s not human is no different from excluding the slave simply because he’s not white. In the same way we’d call that exclusion racist, the animal rightist contends that it is speciesist to discriminate against the chimpanzee solely because he’s not human. But the differences between blacks and whites are trivial compared with the differences between my son and a chimp. Singer counters by asking us to imagine a hypothetical society that discriminates against people on the basis of something nontrivial–say, intelligence. If that scheme offends our sense of equality, then why is the fact that animals lack certain human characteristics any more just as a basis for discrimination? Either we do not owe any justice to the severely retarded, he concludes, or we do owe it to animals with higher capabilities. This is where I put down my fork. If I believe in equality, and equality is based on interests rather than characteristics, then either I have to take the interests of the steer I’m eating into account or concede that I am a speciesist. For the time being, I decided to plead guilty as charged. I finished my steak. But Singer had planted a troubling notion, and in the days afterward, it grew and grew, watered by the other animal rights thinkers I began reading: the philosophers Tom Regan and James Rachels; the legal theorist Steven M. Wise; the writers Joy Williams and Matthew Scully. I didn’t think I minded being a speciesist, but could it be, as several of these writers suggest, that we will someday come to regard speciesism as an evil comparable to racism? Will history someday judge us as harshly as it judges the Germans who went about their ordinary lives in the shadow of Treblinka? Precisely that question was recently posed by J.M. Coetzee, the South African novelist, in a lecture delivered at Princeton; he answered it in the affirmative. If animal rightists are right, “a crime of stupefying proportions” (in Coetzee’s words) is going on all around us every day, just beneath our notice. It’s an idea almost impossible to entertain seriously, much less to accept, and in the weeks following my restaurant face-off between Singer and the steak, I found myself marshaling whatever mental power I could muster to try to refute it. Yet Singer and his allies managed to trump almost all my objections. My first line of defense was obvious. Animals kill one another all the time. Why treat animals more ethically than they treat one another? (Ben Franklin tried this one long before me: during a fishing trip, he wondered, “If you eat one another, I don’t see why we may not eat you.” He admits, however, that the rationale didn’t occur to him until the fish were in the frying pan, smelling “admirably well.” The advantage of being a “reasonable creature,” Franklin remarks, is that you can find a reason for whatever you want to do.) To the “they do it, too” defense, the animal rightist has a devastating reply: do you really want to base your morality on the natural order? Murder and rape are natural, too. Besides, humans don’t need to kill other creatures in order to survive; animals do. (Though if my cat, Otis, is any guide, animals sometimes kill for sheer pleasure.) This suggests another defense. Wouldn’t life in the wild be worse for these farm animals? “Defenders of slavery imposed on black Africans often made a similar point,” Singer retorts. “The life of freedom is to be preferred.” But domesticated animals can’t survive in the wild; in fact, without us they wouldn’t exist at all. Or as one 19th-century political philosopher put it, “The pig has a stronger interest than anyone in the demand for bacon. If all the world were Jewish, there would be no pigs at all.” But it turns out that this would be fine by the animal rightists: for if pigs don’t exist, they can’t be wronged. Animals on factory farms have never known any other life. Singer replies that “animals feel a need to exercise, stretch their limbs or wings, groom themselves and turn around, whether or not they have ever lived in conditions that permit this.” The measure of their suffering is not their prior experiences but the unremitting daily frustration of their instincts. O.K., the suffering of animals is a legitimate problem, but the world is full of problems, and surely human problems must come first! Sounds good, and yet all the animal people are asking me to do is to stop eating meat and wearing animal furs and hides. There’s no reason I can’t devote myself to solving humankind’s problems while being a vegetarian who wears synthetics. But doesn’t the fact that we could choose to forgo meat for moral reasons point to a crucial moral difference between animals and humans? As Kant pointed out, the human being is the only moral animal, the only one even capable of entertaining a concept of “rights.” What’s wrong with reserving moral consideration for those able to reciprocate it? Right here is where you run smack into the A.M.C.: the moral status of the retarded, the insane, the infant and the Alzheimer’s patient. Such “marginal cases,” in the detestable argot of modern moral philosophy, cannot participate in moral decision making any more than a monkey can, yet we nevertheless grant them rights. That’s right, I respond, for the simple reason that they’re one of us. And all of us have been, and will probably once again be, marginal cases ourselves. What’s more, these people have fathers and mothers, daughters and sons, which makes our interest in their welfare deeper than our interest in the welfare of even the most brilliant ape. Alas, none of these arguments evade the charge of speciesism; the racist, too, claims that it’s natural to give special consideration to one’s own kind. A utilitarian like Singer would agree, however, that the feelings of relatives do count for something. Yet the principle of equal consideration of interests demands that, given the choice between performing a painful medical experiment on a severely retarded orphan and on a normal ape, we must sacrifice the child. Why? Because the ape has a greater capacity for pain. Here in a nutshell is the problem with the A.M.C.: it can be used to help the animals, but just as often it winds up hurting the marginal cases. Giving up our speciesism will bring us to a moral cliff from which we may not be prepared to jump, even when logic is pushing us. And yet this isn’t the moral choice I am being asked to make. (Too bad; it would be so much easier!) In everyday life, the choice is not between babies and chimps but between the pork and the tofu. Even if we reject the “hard utilitarianism” of a Peter Singer, there remains the question of whether we owe animals that can feel pain any moral consideration, and this seems impossible to deny. And if we do owe them moral consideration, how can we justify eating them? This is why killing animals for meat (and clothing) poses the most difficult animal rights challenge. In the case of animal testing, all but the most radical animal rightists are willing to balance the human benefit against the cost to the animals. That’s because the unique qualities of human consciousness carry weight in the utilitarian calculus: human pain counts for more than that of a mouse, since our pain is amplified by emotions like dread; similarly, our deaths are worse than an animal’s because we understand what death is in a way they don’t. So the argument over animal testing is really in the details: is this particular procedure or test really necessary to save human lives? (Very often it’s not, in which case we probably shouldn’t do it.) But if humans no longer need to eat meat or wear skins, then what exactly are we putting on the human side of the scale to outweigh the interests of the animal? I suspect that this is finally why the animal people managed to throw me on the defensive. It’s one thing to choose between the chimp and the retarded child or to accept the sacrifice of all those pigs surgeons practiced on to develop heart-bypass surgery. But what happens when the choice is between “a lifetime of suffering for a nonhuman animal and the gastronomic preference of a human being?” You look away–or you stop eating animals. And if you don’t want to do either? Then you have to try to determine if the animals you’re eating have really endured “a lifetime of suffering.” Whether our interest in eating animals outweighs their interest in not being eaten (assuming for the moment that is their interest) turns on the vexed question of animal suffering. Vexed, because it is impossible to know what really goes on in the mind of a cow or a pig or even an ape. Strictly speaking, this is true of other humans, too, but since humans are all basically wired the same way, we have excellent reason to assume that other people’s experience of pain feels much like our own. Can we say that about animals? Yes and no. I have yet to find anyone who still subscribes to Descartes’s belief that animals cannot feel pain because they lack a soul. The general consensus among scientists and philosophers is that when it comes to pain, the higher animals are wired much like we are for the same evolutionary reasons, so we should take the writhings of the kicked dog at face value. Indeed, the very premise of a great deal of animal testing–the reason it has value–is that animals’ experience of physical and even some psychological pain closely resembles our own. Otherwise, why would cosmetics testers drip chemicals into the eyes of rabbits to see if they sting? Why would researchers study head trauma by traumatizing chimpanzee heads? Why would psychologists attempt to induce depression and “learned helplessness” in dogs by exposing them to ceaseless random patterns of electrical shock? That said, it can be argued that human pain differs from animal pain by an order of magnitude. This qualitative difference is largely the result of our possession of language and, by virtue of language, an ability to have thoughts about thoughts and to imagine alternatives to our current reality. The philosopher Daniel C. Dennett suggests that we would do well to draw a distinction between pain, which a great many animals experience, and suffering, which depends on a degree of self-consciousness only a few animals appear to command. Suffering in this view is not just lots of pain but pain intensified by human emotions like loss, sadness, worry, regret, self-pity, shame, humiliation and dread. Consider castration. No one would deny the procedure is painful to animals, yet animals appear to get over it in a way humans do not. (Some rhesus monkeys competing for mates will bite off a rival’s testicle; the very next day the victim may be observed mating, seemingly little the worse for wear.) Surely the suffering of a man able to comprehend the full implications of castration, to anticipate the event and contemplate its aftermath, represents an agony of another order. By the same token, however, language and all that comes with it can also make certain kinds of pain more bearable. A trip to the dentist would be a torment for an ape that couldn’t be made to understand the purpose and duration of the procedure. As humans contemplating the pain and suffering of animals, we do need to guard against projecting on to them what the same experience would feel like to us. Watching a steer force-marched up the ramp to the kill-floor door, as I have done, I need to remind myself that this is not Sean Penn in “Dead Man Walking,” that in a bovine brain the concept of nonexistence is blissfully absent. “If we fail to find suffering in the animal lives we can see,” Dennett writes in “Kinds of Minds,” “we can rest assured there is no invisible suffering somewhere in their brains. If we find suffering, we will recognize it without difficulty.” Which brings us–reluctantly, necessarily–to the American factory farm, the place where all such distinctions turn to dust. It’s not easy to draw lines between pain and suffering in a modern egg or confinement hog operation. These are places where the subtleties of moral philosophy and animal cognition mean less than nothing, where everything we’ve learned about animals at least since Darwin has been simply . . . set aside. To visit a modern CAFO (Confined Animal Feeding Operation) is to enter a world that, for all its technological sophistication, is still designed according to Cartesian principles: animals are machines incapable of feeling pain. Since no thinking person can possibly believe this any more, industrial animal agriculture depends on a suspension of disbelief on the part of the people who operate it and a willingness to avert your eyes on the part of everyone else. From everything I’ve read, egg and hog operations are the worst. Beef cattle in America at least still live outdoors, albeit standing ankle deep in their own waste eating a diet that makes them sick. And broiler chickens, although they do get their beaks snipped off with a hot knife to keep them from cannibalizing one another under the stress of their confinement, at least don’t spend their eight-week lives in cages too small to ever stretch a wing. That fate is reserved for the American laying hen, who passes her brief span piled together with a half-dozen other hens in a wire cage whose floor a single page of this magazine could carpet. Every natural instinct of this animal is thwarted, leading to a range of behavioral “vices” that can include cannibalizing her cagemates and rubbing her body against the wire mesh until it is featherless and bleeding. Pain? Suffering? Madness? The operative suspension of disbelief depends on more neutral descriptors, like “vices” and “stress.” Whatever you want to call what’s going on in those cages, the 10 percent or so of hens that can’t bear it and simply die is built into the cost of production. And when the output of the others begins to ebb, the hens will be “force-molted”–starved of food and water and light for several days in order to stimulate a final bout of egg laying before their life’s work is done. Simply reciting these facts, most of which are drawn from poultry-trade magazines, makes me sound like one of those animal people, doesn’t it? I don’t mean to, but this is what can happen when . . . you look. It certainly wasn’t my intention to ruin anyone’s breakfast. But now that I probably have spoiled the eggs, I do want to say one thing about the bacon, mention a single practice (by no means the worst) in modern hog production that points to the compound madness of an impeccable industrial logic. Piglets in confinement operations are weaned from their mothers 10 days after birth (compared with 13 weeks in nature) because they gain weight faster on their hormone- and antibiotic-fortified feed. This premature weaning leaves the pigs with a lifelong craving to suck and chew, a desire they gratify in confinement by biting the tail of the animal in front of them. A normal pig would fight off his molester, but a demoralized pig has stopped caring. “Learned helplessness” is the psychological term, and it’s not uncommon in confinement operations, where tens of thousands of hogs spend their entire lives ignorant of sunshine or earth or straw, crowded together beneath a metal roof upon metal slats suspended over a manure pit. So it’s not surprising that an animal as sensitive and intelligent as a pig would get depressed, and a depressed pig will allow his tail to be chewed on to the point of infection. Sick pigs, being underperforming “production units,” are clubbed to death on the spot. The U.S.D.A.’s recommended solution to the problem is called “tail docking.” Using a pair of pliers (and no anesthetic), most but not all of the tail is snipped off. Why the little stump? Because the whole point of the exercise is not to remove the object of tail-biting so much as to render it more sensitive. Now, a bite on the tail is so painful that even the most demoralized pig will mount a struggle to avoid it. Much of this description is drawn from “Dominion,” Matthew Scully’s recent book in which he offers a harrowing description of a North Carolina hog operation. Scully, a Christian conservative, has no patience for lefty rights talk, arguing instead that while God did give man “dominion” over animals (“Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you”), he also admonished us to show them mercy. “We are called to treat them with kindness, not because they have rights or power or some claim to equality but . . . because they stand unequal and powerless before us.” Scully calls the contemporary factory farm “our own worst nightmare” and, to his credit, doesn’t shrink from naming the root cause of this evil: unfettered capitalism. (Perhaps this explains why he resigned from the Bush administration just before his book’s publication.) A tension has always existed between the capitalist imperative to maximize efficiency and the moral imperatives of religion or community, which have historically served as a counterweight to the moral blindness of the market. This is one of “the cultural contradictions of capitalism”–the tendency of the economic impulse to erode the moral underpinnings of society. Mercy toward animals is one such casualty. More than any other institution, the American industrial animal farm offers a nightmarish glimpse of what capitalism can look like in the absence of moral or regulatory constraint. Here in these places life itself is redefined–as protein production–and with it suffering. That venerable word becomes “stress,” an economic problem in search of a cost-effective solution, like tail-docking or beak-clipping or, in the industry’s latest plan, by simply engineering the “stress gene” out of pigs and chickens. “Our own worst nightmare” such a place may well be; it is also real life for the billions of animals unlucky enough to have been born beneath these grim steel roofs, into the brief, pitiless life of a “production unit” in the days before the suffering gene was found. Vegetarianism doesn’t seem an unreasonable response to such an evil. Who would want to be made complicit in the agony of these animals by eating them? You want to throw something against the walls of those infernal sheds, whether it’s the Bible, a new constitutional right or a whole platoon of animal rightists bent on breaking in and liberating the inmates. In the shadow of these factory farms, Coetzee’s notion of a “stupefying crime” doesn’t seem far-fetched at all. But before you swear off meat entirely, let me describe a very different sort of animal farm. It is typical of nothing, and yet its very existence puts the whole moral question of animal agriculture in a different light. Polyface Farm occupies 550 acres of rolling grassland and forest in the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia. Here, Joel Salatin and his family raise six different food animals–cattle, pigs, chickens, rabbits, turkeys and sheep–in an intricate dance of symbiosis designed to allow each species, in Salatin’s words, “to fully express its physiological distinctiveness.” What this means in practice is that Salatin’s chickens live like chickens; his cows, like cows; pigs, pigs. As in nature, where birds tend to follow herbivores, once Salatin’s cows have finished grazing a pasture, he moves them out and tows in his “eggmobile,” a portable chicken coop that houses several hundred laying hens–roughly the natural size of a flock. The hens fan out over the pasture, eating the short grass and picking insect larvae out of the cowpats–all the while spreading the cow manure and eliminating the farm’s parasite problem. A diet of grubs and grass makes for exceptionally tasty eggs and contented chickens, and their nitrogenous manure feeds the pasture. A few weeks later, the chickens move out, and the sheep come in, dining on the lush new growth, as well as on the weed species (nettles, nightshade) that the cattle and chickens won’t touch. Meanwhile, the pigs are in the barn turning the compost. All winter long, while the cattle were indoors, Salatin layered their manure with straw, wood chips–and corn. By March, this steaming compost layer cake stands three feet high, and the pigs, whose powerful snouts can sniff out and retrieve the fermented corn at the bottom, get to spend a few happy weeks rooting through the pile, aerating it as they work. All you can see of these pigs, intently nosing out the tasty alcoholic morsels, are their upturned pink hams and corkscrew tails churning the air. The finished compost will go to feed the grass; the grass, the cattle; the cattle, the chickens; and eventually all of these animals will feed us. I thought a lot about vegetarianism and animal rights during the day I spent on Joel Salatin’s extraordinary farm. So much of what I’d read, so much of what I’d accepted, looked very different from here. To many animal rightists, even Polyface Farm is a death camp. But to look at these animals is to see this for the sentimental conceit it is. In the same way that we can probably recognize animal suffering when we see it, animal happiness is unmistakable, too, and here I was seeing it in abundance. For any animal, happiness seems to consist in the opportunity to express its creaturely character–its essential pigness or wolfness or chickenness. Aristotle speaks of each creature’s “characteristic form of life.” For domesticated species, the good life, if we can call it that, cannot be achieved apart from humans–apart from our farms and, therefore, our meat eating. This, it seems to me, is where animal rightists betray a profound ignorance about the workings of nature. To think of domestication as a form of enslavement or even exploitation is to misconstrue the whole relationship, to project a human idea of power onto what is, in fact, an instance of mutualism between species. Domestication is an evolutionary, rather than a political, development. It is certainly not a regime humans imposed on animals some 10,000 years ago. Rather, domestication happened when a small handful of especially opportunistic species discovered through Darwinian trial and error that they were more likely to survive and prosper in an alliance with humans than on their own. Humans provided the animals with food and protection, in exchange for which the animals provided the humans their milk and eggs and–yes–their flesh. Both parties were transformed by the relationship: animals grew tame and lost their ability to fend for themselves (evolution tends to edit out unneeded traits), and the humans gave up their hunter-gatherer ways for the settled life of agriculturists. (Humans changed biologically, too, evolving such new traits as a tolerance for lactose as adults.) From the animals’ point of view, the bargain with humanity has been a great success, at least until our own time. Cows, pigs, dogs, cats and chickens have thrived, while their wild ancestors have languished. (There are 10,000 wolves in North America, 50,000,000 dogs.) Nor does their loss of autonomy seem to trouble these creatures. It is wrong, the rightists say, to treat animals as “means” rather than “ends,” yet the happiness of a working animal like the dog consists precisely in serving as a “means.” Liberation is the last thing such a creature wants. To say of one of Joel Salatin’s caged chickens that “the life of freedom is to be preferred” betrays an ignorance about chicken preferences–which on this farm are heavily focused on not getting their heads bitten off by weasels. But haven’t these chickens simply traded one predator for another–weasels for humans? True enough, and for the chickens this is probably not a bad deal. For brief as it is, the life expectancy of a farm animal would be considerably briefer in the world beyond the pasture fence or chicken coop. A sheep farmer told me that a bear will eat a lactating ewe alive, starting with her udders. “As a rule,” he explained, “animals don’t get ‘good deaths’ surrounded by their loved ones.” The very existence of predation–animals eating animals–is the cause of much anguished hand-wringing in animal rights circles. “It must be admitted,” Singer writes, “that the existence of carnivorous animals does pose one problem for the ethics of Animal Liberation, and that is whether we should do anything about it.” Some animal rightists train their dogs and cats to become vegetarians. (Note: cats will require nutritional supplements to stay healthy.) Matthew Scully calls predation “the intrinsic evil in nature’s design . . . among the hardest of all things to fathom.” Really? A deep Puritan streak pervades animal rights activists, an abiding discomfort not only with our animality, but with the animals’ animality too. However it may appear to us, predation is not a matter of morality or politics; it, also, is a matter of symbiosis. Hard as the wolf may be on the deer he eats, the herd depends on him for its well-being; without predators to cull the herd, deer overrun their habitat and starve. In many places, human hunters have taken over the predator’s ecological role. Chickens also depend for their continued well-being on their human predators–not individual chickens, but chickens as a species. The surest way to achieve the extinction of the chicken would be to grant chickens a “right to life.” Yet here’s the rub: the animal rightist is not concerned with species, only individuals. Tom Regan, author of “The Case for Animal Rights,” bluntly asserts that because “species are not individuals . . . the rights view does not recognize the moral rights of species to anything, including survival.” Singer concurs, insisting that only sentient individuals have interests. But surely a species can have interests–in its survival, say–just as a nation or community or a corporation can. The animal rights movement’s exclusive concern with individual animals makes perfect sense given its roots in a culture of liberal individualism, but does it make any sense in nature? Consider this hypothetical scenario: In 1611 Juan da Goma (aka Juan the Disoriented) made accidental landfall on Wrightson Island, a six-square-mile rock in the Indian Ocean. The island’s sole distinction is as the only known home of the Arcania tree and the bird that nests in it, the Wrightson giant sea sparrow. Da Goma and his crew stayed a week, much of that time spent in a failed bid to recapture the ship’s escaped goat — who happened to be pregnant. Nearly four centuries later, Wrightson Island is home to 380 goats that have consumed virtually every scrap of vegetation in their reach. The youngest Arcania tree on the island is more than 300 years old, and only 52 sea sparrows remain. In the animal rights view, any one of those goats have at least as much right to life as the last Wrightson sparrow on earth, and the trees, because they are not sentient, warrant no moral consideration whatsoever. (In the mid-80’s a British environmental group set out to shoot the goats, but was forced to cancel the expedition after the Mammal Liberation Front bombed its offices.) The story of Wrightson Island (recounted by the biologist David Ehrenfeld in “Beginning Again”) suggests at the very least that a human morality based on individual rights makes for an awkward fit when applied to the natural world. This should come as no surprise: morality is an artifact of human culture, devised to help us negotiate social relations. It’s very good for that. But just as we recognize that nature doesn’t provide an adequate guide for human social conduct, isn’t it anthropocentric to assume that our moral system offers an adequate guide for nature? We may require a different set of ethics to guide our dealings with the natural world, one as well suited to the particular needs of plants and animals and habitats (where sentience counts for little) as rights suit us humans today. To contemplate such questions from the vantage of a farm is to appreciate just how parochial and urban an ideology animals rights really is. It could thrive only in a world where people have lost contact with the natural world, where animals no longer pose a threat to us and human mastery of nature seems absolute. “In our normal life,” Singer writes, “there is no serious clash of interests between human and nonhuman animals.” Such a statement assumes a decidedly urbanized “normal life,” one that certainly no farmer would recognize. The farmer would point out that even vegans have a “serious clash of interests” with other animals. The grain that the vegan eats is harvested with a combine that shreds field mice, while the farmer’s tractor crushes woodchucks in their burrows, and his pesticides drop songbirds from the sky. Steve Davis, an animal scientist at Oregon State University, has estimated that if America were to adopt a strictly vegetarian diet, the total number of animals killed every year would actually increase, as animal pasture gave way to row crops. Davis contends that if our goal is to kill as few animals as possible, then people should eat the largest possible animal that can live on the least intensively cultivated land: grass-fed beef for everybody. It would appear that killing animals is unavoidable no matter what we choose to eat. When I talked to Joel Salatin about the vegetarian utopia, he pointed out that it would also condemn him and his neighbors to importing their food from distant places, since the Shenandoah Valley receives too little rainfall to grow many row crops. Much the same would hold true where I live, in New England. We get plenty of rain, but the hilliness of the land has dictated an agriculture based on animals since the time of the Pilgrims. The world is full of places where the best, if not the only, way to obtain food from the land is by grazing animals on it–especially ruminants, which alone can transform grass into protein and whose presence can actually improve the health of the land. The vegetarian utopia would make us even more dependent than we already are on an industrialized national food chain. That food chain would in turn be even more dependent than it already is on fossil fuels and chemical fertilizer, since food would need to travel farther and manure would be in short supply. Indeed, it is doubtful that you can build a more sustainable agriculture without animals to cycle nutrients and support local food production. If our concern is for the health of nature–rather than, say, the internal consistency of our moral code or the condition of our souls–then eating animals may sometimes be the most ethical thing to do. There is, too, the fact that we humans have been eating animals as long as we have lived on this earth. Humans may not need to eat meat in order to survive, yet doing so is part of our evolutionary heritage, reflected in the design of our teeth and the structure of our digestion. Eating meat helped make us what we are, in a social and biological sense. Under the pressure of the hunt, the human brain grew in size and complexity, and around the fire where the meat was cooked, human culture first flourished. Granting rights to animals may lift us up from the brutal world of predation, but it will entail the sacrifice of part of our identity–our own animality. Surely this is one of the odder paradoxes of animal rights doctrine. It asks us to recognize all that we share with animals and then demands that we act toward them in a most unanimalistic way. Whether or not this is a good idea, we should at least acknowledge that our desire to eat meat is not a trivial matter, no mere “gastronomic preference.” We might as well call sex–also now technically unnecessary–a mere “recreational preference.” Whatever else it is, our meat eating is something very deep indeed. Are any of these good enough reasons to eat animals? I’m mindful of Ben Franklin’s definition of the reasonable creature as one who can come up with reasons for whatever he wants to do. So I decided I would track down Peter Singer and ask him what he thought. In an e-mail message, I described Polyface and asked him about the implications for his position of the Good Farm–one where animals got to live according to their nature and to all appearances did not suffer. “I agree with you that it is better for these animals to have lived and died than not to have lived at all,” Singer wrote back. Since the utilitarian is concerned exclusively with the sum of happiness and suffering and the slaughter of an animal that doesn’t comprehend that death need not involve suffering, the Good Farm adds to the total of animal happiness, provided you replace the slaughtered animal with a new one. However, he added, this line of thinking doesn’t obviate the wrongness of killing an animal that “has a sense of its own existence over time and can have preferences for its own future.” In other words, it’s O.K. to eat the chicken, but he’s not so sure about the pig. Yet, he wrote, “I would not be sufficiently confident of my arguments to condemn someone who purchased meat from one of these farms.” Singer went on to express serious doubts that such farms could be practical on a large scale, since the pressures of the marketplace will lead their owners to cut costs and corners at the expense of the animals. He suggested, too, that killing animals is not conducive to treating them with respect. Also, since humanely raised food will be more expensive, only the well-to-do can afford morally defensible animal protein. These are important considerations, but they don’t alter my essential point: what’s wrong with animal agriculture–with eating animals–is the practice, not the principle. What this suggests to me is that people who care should be working not for animal rights but animal welfare–to ensure that farm animals don’t suffer and that their deaths are swift and painless. In fact, the decent-life-merciful-death line is how Jeremy Bentham justified his own meat eating. Yes, the philosophical father of animal rights was himself a carnivore. In a passage rather less frequently quoted by animal rightists, Bentham defended eating animals on the grounds that “we are the better for it, and they are never the worse. . . . The death they suffer in our hands commonly is, and always may be, a speedier and, by that means, a less painful one than that which would await them in the inevitable course of nature.” My guess is that Bentham never looked too closely at what happens in a slaughterhouse, but the argument suggests that, in theory at least, a utilitarian can justify the killing of humanely treated animals–for meat or, presumably, for clothing. (Though leather and fur pose distinct moral problems. Leather is a byproduct of raising domestic animals for food, which can be done humanely. However, furs are usually made from wild animals that die brutal deaths–usually in leg-hold traps–and since most fur species aren’t domesticated, raising them on farms isn’t necessarily more humane.) But whether the issue is food or fur or hunting, what should concern us is the suffering, not the killing. All of which I was feeling pretty good about–until I remembered that utilitarians can also justify killing retarded orphans. Killing just isn’t the problem for them that it is for other people, including me. During my visit to Polyface Farm, I asked Salatin where his animals were slaughtered. He does the chickens and rabbits right on the farm, and would do the cattle, pigs and sheep there too if only the U.S.D.A. would let him. Salatin showed me the open-air abattoir he built behind the farmhouse–a sort of outdoor kitchen on a concrete slab, with stainless-steel sinks, scalding tanks, a feather-plucking machine and metal cones to hold the birds upside down while they’re being bled. Processing chickens is not a pleasant job, but Salatin insists on doing it himself because he’s convinced he can do it more humanely and cleanly than any processing plant. He slaughters every other Saturday through the summer. Anyone’s welcome to watch. I asked Salatin how he could bring himself to kill a chicken. “People have a soul; animals don’t,” he said. “It’s a bedrock belief of mine.” Salatin is a devout Christian. “Unlike us, animals are not created in God’s image, so when they die, they just die.” The notion that only in modern times have people grown uneasy about killing animals is a flattering conceit. Taking a life is momentous, and people have been working to justify the slaughter of animals for thousands of years. Religion and especially ritual has played a crucial part in helping us reckon the moral costs. Native Americans and other hunter-gathers would give thanks to their prey for giving up its life so the eater might live (sort of like saying grace). Many cultures have offered sacrificial animals to the gods, perhaps as a way to convince themselves that it was the gods’ desires that demanded the slaughter, not their own. In ancient Greece, the priests responsible for the slaughter (priests!–now we entrust the job to minimum-wage workers) would sprinkle holy water on the sacrificial animal’s brow. The beast would promptly shake its head, and this was taken as a sign of assent. Slaughter doesn’t necessarily preclude respect. For all these people, it was the ceremony that allowed them to look, then to eat. Apart from a few surviving religious practices, we no longer have any rituals governing the slaughter or eating of animals, which perhaps helps to explain why we find ourselves where we do, feeling that our only choice is to either look away or give up meat. Frank Perdue is happy to serve the first customer; Peter Singer, the second. Until my visit to Polyface Farm, I had assumed these were the only two options. But on Salatin’s farm, the eye contact between people and animals whose loss John Berger mourned is still a fact of life–and of death, for neither the lives nor the deaths of these animals have been secreted behind steel walls. “Food with a face,” Salatin likes to call what he’s selling, a slogan that probably scares off some customers. People see very different things when they look into the eyes of a pig or a chicken or a steer–a being without a soul, a “subject of a life” entitled to rights, a link in a food chain, a vessel for pain and pleasure, a tasty lunch. But figuring out what we do think, and what we can eat, might begin with the looking. We certainly won’t philosophize our way to an answer. Salatin told me the story of a man who showed up at the farm one Saturday morning. When Salatin noticed a PETA bumper sticker on the man’s car, he figured he was in for it. But the man had a different agenda. He explained that after 16 years as a vegetarian, he had decided that the only way he could ever eat meat again was if he killed the animal himself. He had come to look. “Ten minutes later we were in the processing shed with a chicken,” Salatin recalled. “He slit the bird’s throat and watched it die. He saw that the animal did not look at him accusingly, didn’t do a Disney double take. The animal had been treated with respect when it was alive, and he saw that it could also have a respectful death–that it wasn’t being treated as a pile of protoplasm.” Salatin’s open-air abattoir is a morally powerful idea. Someone slaughtering a chicken in a place where he can be watched is apt to do it scrupulously, with consideration for the animal as well as for the eater. This is going to sound quixotic, but maybe all we need to do to redeem industrial animal agriculture in this country is to pass a law requiring that the steel and concrete walls of the CAFO’s and slaughterhouses be replaced with . . . glass. If there’s any new “right” we need to establish, maybe it’s this one: the right to look. No doubt the sight of some of these places would turn many people into vegetarians. Many others would look elsewhere for their meat, to farmers like Salatin. There are more of them than I would have imagined. Despite the relentless consolidation of the American meat industry, there has been a revival of small farms where animals still live their “characteristic form of life.” I’m thinking of the ranches where cattle still spend their lives on grass, the poultry farms where chickens still go outside and the hog farms where pigs live as they did 50 years ago–in contact with the sun, the earth and the gaze of a farmer. For my own part, I’ve discovered that if you’re willing to make the effort, it’s entirely possible to limit the meat you eat to nonindustrial animals. I’m tempted to think that we need a new dietary category, to go with the vegan and lactovegetarian and piscatorian. I don’t have a catchy name for it yet (humanocarnivore?), but this is the only sort of meat eating I feel comfortable with these days. I’ve become the sort of shopper who looks for labels indicating that his meat and eggs have been humanely grown (the American Humane Association’s new “Free Farmed” label seems to be catching on), who visits the farms where his chicken and pork come from and who asks kinky-sounding questions about touring slaughterhouses. I’ve actually found a couple of small processing plants willing to let a customer onto the kill floor, including one, in Cannon Falls, Minn., with a glass abattoir. The industrialization–and dehumanization–of American animal farming is a relatively new, evitable and local phenomenon: no other country raises and slaughters its food animals quite as intensively or as brutally as we do. Were the walls of our meat industry to become transparent, literally or even figuratively, we would not long continue to do it this way. Tail-docking and sow crates and beak-clipping would disappear overnight, and the days of slaughtering 400 head of cattle an hour would come to an end. For who could stand the sight? Yes, meat would get more expensive. We’d probably eat less of it, too, but maybe when we did eat animals, we’d eat them with the consciousness, ceremony and respect they deserve.  

      I think that Pollan did an amazing job in this piece here. He showed signs of reading with the grain while alos arguing against the animal topic by preaching his own beleifs.

    1. The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect, over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked; his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire; he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight; you are ten thousand times so abominable in his eyes as the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours. You have offended him infinitely more than ever a stubborn rebel did his prince: and yet ’tis nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment; ’tis to be ascribed to nothing else, that you did not go to hell the last night; that you was suffered to awake again in this world, after you closed your eyes to sleep: and there is no other reason to be given why you have not dropped into hell since you arose in the morning, but that God’s hand has held you up; there is no other reason to be given why you han’t gone to hell since you have sat here in the house of God, provoking his pure eyes by your sinful wicked manner of attending his solemn worship: yea, there is nothing else that is to be given as a reason why you don’t this very moment drop down into hell.

      This whole paragraph was pretty menacing to read. It makes you question about your own life. If this were true, what is the reason that he hasn't dropped sinners into hell?

    2. you have sat here in the house of God, provoking his pure eyes by your sinful wicked manner of attending his solemn worship: yea, there is nothing else that is to be given as a reason why you don’t this very moment drop down into hell. O sinner! Consider the fearful danger you are in: ’tis a great furnace of wrath, a wide and bottomless pit, full of the fire of wrath, that you are held over in the hand of that God, whose wrath is provoked and incensed as much against you as against many of the damned in hell;

      Further, Edwards pleas with the people to change their ways. He shows his disgust with them and explains how God shares greater disgust. This is a pathos fear appeal to scare the people into conforming to his morals.

    3. Jonathan Edwards catalyzed the revivals known as the Great Awakening. While Edwards was not the most prolific revivalist of the era—that honor belonged to George Whitefield—he did deliver the most famous sermon of the eighteenth century, commonly called “Sinners in the Hands of Angry God.” This excerpt is drawn from the final portion of the sermon, known as the application, where hearers were called to take action.     That world of misery, that lake of burning brimstone is extended abroad under you. There is the dreadful pit of the glowing flames of the wrath of God; there is hell’s wide gaping mouth open; and you have nothing to stand upon, nor anything to take hold of: there is nothing between you and hell but the air; ’tis only the power and mere pleasure of God that holds you up. You probably are not sensible of this; you find you are kept out of hell, but don’t see the hand of God in it, but look at other things, as the good state of your bodily constitution, your care of your own life, and the means you use for your own preservation. But indeed these things are nothing; if God should withdraw his hand, they would avail no more to keep you from falling, than the thin air to hold up a person that is suspended in it…. The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect, over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked; his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire; he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight; you are ten thousand times so abominable in his eyes as the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours. You have offended him infinitely more than ever a stubborn rebel did his prince: and yet ’tis nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment; ’tis to be ascribed to nothing else, that you did not go to hell the last night; that you was suffered to awake again in this world, after you closed your eyes to sleep: and there is no other reason to be given why you have not dropped into hell since you arose in the morning, but that God’s hand has held you up; there is no other reason to be given why you han’t gone to hell since you have sat here in the house of God, provoking his pure eyes by your sinful wicked manner of attending his solemn worship: yea, there is nothing else that is to be given as a reason why you don’t this very moment drop down into hell. O sinner! Consider the fearful danger you are in: ’tis a great furnace of wrath, a wide and bottomless pit, full of the fire of wrath, that you are held over in the hand of that God, whose wrath is provoked and incensed as much against you as against many of the damned in hell; you hang by a slender thread, with the flames of divine wrath flashing about it, and ready every moment to singe it, and burn it asunder; and you have no interest in any mediator, and nothing to lay hold of to save yourself, nothing to keep off the flames of wrath, nothing of your own, nothing that you ever have done, nothing that you can do, to induce God to spare you one moment… Consider this, you that are here present, that yet remain in an unregenerate state. That God will execute the fierceness of his anger, implies that he will inflict wrath without any pity… you will be a vessel of wrath fitted to destruction; and there will be no other use of this vessel but only to be filled full of wrath: God will be so far from pitying you when you cry to him, that ’tis said he will only laugh and mock (Proverbs 1:25-32)… How dreadful is the state of those that are daily and hourly in danger of this great wrath, and infinite misery! But this is the dismal case of every soul in this congregation, that has not been born again, however moral and strict, sober and religious they may otherwise be. Oh that you would consider it, whether you be young or old. There is reason to think, that there are many in this congregation now hearing this discourse, that will actually be the subjects of this very misery to all eternity. We know not who they are, or in what seats they sit, or what thoughts they now have: it may be they are now at ease, and hear all these things without much disturbance, and are now flattering themselves that they are not the persons, promising themselves that they shall escape. If we knew that there was one person, and but one, in the whole congregation that was to be the subject of this misery, what an awful thing would it be to think of! If we knew who it was, what an awful sight would it be to see such a person! How might all the rest of the congregation lift up a lamentable and bitter cry over him! But alas! instead of one, how many is it likely will remember this discourse in hell? And it would be a wonder if some that are now present, should not be in hell in a very short time, before this year is out. And it would be no wonder if some person that now sits here in some seat of this meeting house in health, and quiet and secure, should be there before tomorrow morning. Those of you that finally continue in a natural condition, that shall keep out of hell longest, will be there in a little time! your damnation don’t slumber; it will come swiftly, and in all probability very suddenly upon many of you. You have reason to wonder, that you are not already in hell. ‘Tis doubtless the case of some that heretofore you have seen and known, that never deserved hell more than you, and that heretofore appeared as likely to have been now alive as you: their case is past all hope; they are crying in extreme misery and perfect despair; but here you are in the land of the living, and in the house of God, and have an opportunity to obtain salvation. What would not those poor damned, hopeless souls give for one day’s such opportunity as you now enjoy! And now you have an extraordinary opportunity, a day wherein Christ has flung the door of mercy wide open, and stands in the door calling and crying with a loud voice to poor sinners; a day wherein many are flocking to him, and pressing into the kingdom of God; many are daily coming from the east, west, north and south; many that were very lately in the same miserable condition that you are in, are in now an happy state, with their hearts filled with love to him that has loved them and washed them from their sins in his own blood, and rejoicing in hope of the glory of God. How awful is it to be left behind at such a day! To see so many others feasting, while you are pining and perishing! To see so many rejoicing and singing for joy of heart, while you have cause to mourn for sorrow of heart, and howl for vexation of spirit! How can you rest one moment in such a condition? Are not your souls as precious as the souls of the people at Suffield,7 where they are flocking from day to day to Christ? … And you children that are unconverted, don’t you know that you are going down to hell, to bear the dreadful wrath of that God that is now angry with you every day, and every night? Will you be content to be the children of the devil, when so many other children in the land are converted, and are become the holy and happy children of the King of kings? And let everyone that is yet out of Christ, and hanging over the pit of hell, whether they be old men and women, or middle aged, or young people, or little children, now hearken to the loud calls of God’s Word and providence. This acceptable year of the Lord, that is a day of such great favor to some, will doubtless be a day of as remarkable vengeance to others… Therefore let everyone that is out of Christ, now awake and fly from the wrath to come. The wrath of almighty God is now undoubtedly hanging over great part of this congregation: let everyone fly out of Sodom. Haste and escape for your lives, look not behind you, escape to the mountain, lest you be consumed [Genesis 19:17].

      This sermon is truly eye opening to those who have never read it before. I have never seen such bold, outright wording in a religious setting and am somewhat shocked by the abrasiveness of the pastor. Edwards warns the audience that they will go to hell if they don't repent for their sins and find their way back to God. The audience is obviously church-goers yet Edwards is fervent in his accusations that they are not righteous people. The message was well-received due to the impact it left and may have been well-intended. However, the pastor could have shown more care in his more outrageous accusations. Religion is very important to some people but it is not something that should consume ones whole life. God is meant to be fair and loving therefore presenting him as a being that is dangling people and waiting for them to drop into hell is quite shocking and somewhat dramatic. God would not abandon one of his creations because they don't worship the same way as someone else.

    4. You have offended him infinitely more than ever a stubborn rebel did his prince: and yet ’tis nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment; ’tis to be ascribed to nothing else, that you did not go to hell the last night; that you was suffered to awake again in this world, after you closed your eyes to sleep: and there is no other reason to be given why you have not dropped into hell since you arose in the morning, but that God’s hand has held you up; there is no other reason to be given why you han’t gone to hell since you have sat here in the house of God, provoking his pure eyes by your sinful wicked manner of attending his solemn worship: yea, there is nothing else that is to be given as a reason why you don’t this very moment drop down into hell.

      Lindsey Jones:

      This is imagry is a great example of the how the Great Awakening shifted the view of how people percieved god. Before the Great Awakening. Before the Great Awakening, it was believed that someone could not have a personal relationship with God by themselves. In this passage, it streses the fact that the reader is only not in hell because of their relationship with God. Another issue this passage brings up is the fact that how people attend service is wicked, possibly alluding to the decline in church attendences at this time.

    5. The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect, over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked; his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire; he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight; you are ten thousand times so abominable in his eyes as the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours. You have offended him infinitely more than ever a stubborn rebel did his prince: and yet ’tis nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment; ’tis to be ascribed to nothing else, that you did not go to hell the last night; that you was suffered to awake again in this world, after you closed your eyes to sleep: and there is no other reason to be given why you have not dropped into hell since you arose in the morning, but that God’s hand has held you up; there is no other reason to be given why you han’t gone to hell since you have sat here in the house of God, provoking his pure eyes by your sinful wicked manner of attending his solemn worship: yea, there is nothing else that is to be given as a reason why you don’t this very moment drop down into hell.

      The lines of this piece indicate that God is angered by the "sinful wicked manner" the reader is acting. From this I observe that Edwards is scolding those who are not dedicating enough time to praise and worship, instead they are preoccupied by things other than religion or losing their religious stronghold. It implies that the reader is barely kept from being in hell due to the mercy of God and therefore owes God their life.

    6. The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect, over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked; his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire; he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight; you are ten thousand times so abominable in his eyes as the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours. You have offended him infinitely more than ever a stubborn rebel did his prince: and yet ’tis nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment; ’tis to be ascribed to nothing else, that you did not go to hell the last night; that you was suffered to awake again in this world, after you closed your eyes to sleep: and there is no other reason to be given why you have not dropped into hell since you arose in the morning, but that God’s hand has held you up; there is no other reason to be given why you han’t gone to hell since you have sat here in the house of God, provoking his pure eyes by your sinful wicked manner of attending his solemn worship: yea, there is nothing else that is to be given as a reason why you don’t this very moment drop down into hell.

      In this paragraph Edwards tells his congregation that they are nothing but sinners whose existence serves only to offend God, who is the only reason that they continue exiting. By reminding them of their worthlessness he is able to strike fear into the hearts of his congregates.

    7. The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect, over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked; his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire; he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight; you are ten thousand times so abominable in his eyes as the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours. You have offended him infinitely more than ever a stubborn rebel did his prince: and yet ’tis nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment; ’tis to be ascribed to nothing else, that you did not go to hell the last night; that you was suffered to awake again in this world, after you closed your eyes to sleep: and there is no other reason to be given why you have not dropped into hell since you arose in the morning, but that God’s hand has held you up; there is no other reason to be given why you han’t gone to hell since you have sat here in the house of God, provoking his pure eyes by your sinful wicked manner of attending his solemn worship: yea, there is nothing else that is to be given as a reason why you don’t this very moment drop down into hell.

      The stance taken in this sermon is far different from what I usually expect to hear in a sermon today. Rather than suggesting to the reader that one should take God's hand to repay him because he has offered so much, Jonathan Edwards' approach is far more degrading. Starting with the fact that God does not care for us and how we owe ourselves to him because he has allowed us to live another day when he could kill us whenever he so pleases is an interesting approach. The usual idea that God loves all of his creations is stripped away and now his role in a person's life and death is exemplified while accompanied with the idea that God is not only willing to end our lives, but he is waiting for the day to come so he can. During the 1700s, religion played a larger role in peoples lives compared to today's standards. Putting this sermon into that context, it would make sense that this more radical approach would be taken to convert as many people as the possibly could through fear.

    8. The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect, over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked; his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire; he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight; you are ten thousand times so abominable in his eyes as the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours. You have offended him infinitely more than ever a stubborn rebel did his prince: and yet ’tis nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment; ’tis to be ascribed to nothing else, that you did not go to hell the last night; that you was suffered to awake again in this world, after you closed your eyes to sleep: and there is no other reason to be given why you have not dropped into hell since you arose in the morning, but that God’s hand has held you up; there is no other reason to be given why you han’t gone to hell since you have sat here in the house of God, provoking his pure eyes by your sinful wicked manner of attending his solemn worship: yea, there is nothing else that is to be given as a reason why you don’t this very moment drop down into hell.

      In this passage, Jonathan Edwards explained to people that God will punish people who have committed sins. They are not as merciful as usual and become very angry. This warns people whether they should stay away from those sinful things. Otherwise it will bring you pain every day. During the colonial era, I believe that Jonathan Edwards wrote this in his article, hoping that people can feel that God is fair and just through God’s attitude towards evil things.

    9. The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect, over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked; his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire; he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight; you are ten thousand times so abominable in his eyes as the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours. You have offended him infinitely more than ever a stubborn rebel did his prince: and yet ’tis nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment; ’tis to be ascribed to nothing else, that you did not go to hell the last night; that you was suffered to awake again in this world, after you closed your eyes to sleep: and there is no other reason to be given why you have not dropped into hell since you arose in the morning, but that God’s hand has held you up; there is no other reason to be given why you han’t gone to hell since you have sat here in the house of God, provoking his pure eyes by your sinful wicked manner of attending his solemn worship: yea, there is nothing else that is to be given as a reason why you don’t this very moment drop down into hell.

      Kendall Hershman The imagery here does the job of describing what is going on, that God is holding you in his hand and to describes the pitot hell and the burning flames beneath you. Jonathan Edwards expresses here that God is indeed very merciful. God is described by Edwards being so mad and fruited with his people. Jonathan Edwards is telling people that God is made with them and mad at all who do not believe in him. He shows what will happen and where you will go if you do not believe in God but here Jonathan really expresses Gods disappointment. The imagery he uses just shows the strong angry and disappointed emotions that God has right here. He shows that God has no reason to hold the people that do not follow him up but he still does it because he is that merciful. If the people do not take advantage of this last chance to repent their sins and ask God for forgiveness then they will be dropped.

  31. Sep 2020
    1. The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect, over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked; his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire; he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight; you are ten thousand times so abominable in his eyes as the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours. You have offended him infinitely more than ever a stubborn rebel did his prince: and yet ’tis nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment; ’tis to be ascribed to nothing else, that you did not go to hell the last night; that you was suffered to awake again in this world, after you closed your eyes to sleep: and there is no other reason to be given why you have not dropped into hell since you arose in the morning, but that God’s hand has held you up; there is no other reason to be given why you han’t gone to hell since you have sat here in the house of God, provoking his pure eyes by your sinful wicked manner of attending his solemn worship: yea, there is nothing else that is to be given as a reason why you don’t this very moment drop down into hell.

      This portion struck me as surprising and contrary to modern Christian teaching. Growing up Catholic, God was always presented as loving and compassionate. This speech seems to paint a completely different picture. Edwards seems to view God as loathsome towards humans because of their sins against him and that they have "offended" him. You could almost infer that he is possibly suggesting that God wants to "drop" us into hell instead of bringing us salvation. I believe modern theologians would consider this a radical theology that would be disputed by all modern Christian faiths.

    2. The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect, over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked; his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire; he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight; you are ten thousand times so abominable in his eyes as the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours. You have offended him infinitely more than ever a stubborn rebel did his prince: and yet ’tis nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment; ’tis to be ascribed to nothing else, that you did not go to hell the last night; that you was suffered to awake again in this world, after you closed your eyes to sleep: and there is no other reason to be given why you have not dropped into hell since you arose in the morning, but that God’s hand has held you up; there is no other reason to be given why you han’t gone to hell since you have sat here in the house of God, provoking his pure eyes by your sinful wicked manner of attending his solemn worship: yea, there is nothing else that is to be given as a reason why you don’t this very moment drop down into hell.

      From this part of the text it shows that God is just tolerating his people. It is like Jonathan Edwards is instilling fear into the people so they would go to church or blindly follow religion therefor not going to Hell. Also we should appreciate the little mercy God has give us by supporting us away from Hell. The author's tone is praising God for putting very little effort in the process of keeping us alive/not in Hell because we, as humanity, disgust Him and degrading us for being sinners/disgusting. I think Jonathan Edward is holding himself higher than others when he is also a human being, his tone is very arrogant as if he is blaming others and he is absolved of all sin and considers himself perfect and able to do no wrong. This leads to my question, if God created everything, shouldn't he love(not tolerate) his Creation? Because of this sermon, fear of an angry God, and Hell, is this why some people devote themselves to religion? Has this passed through time and imbed itself in religion? Why does it seem like a toxic relationship hen it's supposed to be a loving relationship?

    3. The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect, over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked; his wrath towards you burns like fire;

      This preacher paints a picture of an angry spiteful God, just waiting for you to mess up so that he can drop you into hell as a person could drop a spider into a flame. This imagery is in direct contrast of what most people imagine. A benevolent God, who cares about all of his children and wants the best for them, while acknowledging free will. I'm sure this sermon was uncomfortable and scary for many.

    4. God’s hand has held you up; there is no other reason to be given why you han’t gone to hell since you have sat here in the house of God, provoking his pure eyes by your sinful wicked manner of attending his solemn worship: yea, there is nothing else that is to be given as a reason why you don’t this very moment drop down into hell.

      I think this portion of the sermon is actually speaking of God's mercy. God is continuing to hold them up even when they have sat in the sanctuary of the church and have not really had a heart experience with God. That would also horrify some persons. In a "fire and brimstone" sermon such as this one, it would be very much in contrast to the usual church services of that time and could cause the people listening to be very frightened and to really search themselves as to their relationship with God. In my opinion, this is one of the main reasons why The Great Awakening was such a major movement in history.

    5. The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect, over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked; his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire; he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight; you are ten thousand times so abominable in his eyes as the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours. You have offended him infinitely more than ever a stubborn rebel did his prince: and yet ’tis nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment; ’tis to be ascribed to nothing else, that you did not go to hell the last night; that you was suffered to awake again in this world, after you closed your eyes to sleep: and there is no other reason to be given why you have not dropped into hell since you arose in the morning, but that God’s hand has held you up; there is no other reason to be given why you han’t gone to hell since you have sat here in the house of God, provoking his pure eyes by your sinful wicked manner of attending his solemn worship: yea, there is nothing else that is to be given as a reason why you don’t this very moment drop down into hell.

      The picture here of God holding a person as I would hold a disgusting, repulsive insect,(I wouldn't hold a spider as I'm afraid of them) speaks volumes to me. I can well imagine that a Puritan, whose main religious directive is to purify the Anglican church, would have been very shocked to consider themselves impure and that repulsive. Another creature that I'm terrified of is snakes and my only thought when I see one is of evil incarnate. That also must have shocked them very much to be considered as a serpent; the Devil as it were, as the King James Bible calls Satan a serpent.

    6. The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect, over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked; his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire; he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight; you are ten thousand times so abominable in his eyes as the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours. You have offended him infinitely more than ever a stubborn rebel did his prince: and yet ’tis nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment; ’tis to be ascribed to nothing else, that you did not go to hell the last night; that you was suffered to awake again in this world, after you closed your eyes to sleep: and there is no other reason to be given why you have not dropped into hell since you arose in the morning, but that God’s hand has held you up; there is no other reason to be given why you han’t gone to hell since you have sat here in the house of God, provoking his pure eyes by your sinful wicked manner of attending his solemn worship: yea, there is nothing else that is to be given as a reason why you don’t this very moment drop down into hell.

      This paragraph is quite deep and striking due to the way the writer elaborates and analogizes a sinner in the eyes of God and the Church. There is definitely passion in his words as he describes how sinful individuals could have potentially been during this time. To read the passage, it seems like some kind of a warning. I interpret it as one needing to take head to sinful actions as God see's all that you do and he judges your actions daily. Therefore, if he chooses not to allow you to wake the next day be mindful your actions on Earth could potentially lead you to the gates of hell. I had to read this passage twice because it really struck me. In this day in age, sermons aren't as straight forward as this one in some congregations. The topics of sin are touched on a more lighter note rather than straight forward such as this. I wonder what actions and or public sins were taking place that caused for such sermon to be written? The sermon definitely brought fear to me in this one section so I can only image how the people felt then.

    7. You have offended him infinitely more than ever a stubborn rebel did his prince: and yet ’tis nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment; ’tis to be ascribed to nothing else, that you did not go to hell the last night; that you was suffered to awake again in this world, after you closed your eyes to sleep: and there is no other reason to be given why you have not dropped into hell since you arose in the morning, but that God’s hand has held you up; there is no other reason to be given why you han’t gone to hell since you have sat here in the house of God, provoking his pure eyes by your sinful wicked manner of attending his solemn worship: yea, there is nothing else that is to be given as a reason why you don’t this very moment drop down into hell.

      In today's world, I find this sermon to be over the top and invalid of what we have been taught in current day about Jesus Christ and his message of God being spread over the world. Current teachings state that we have a loving God who would assist anyone in need. This particular passage states that the congregants are held over "the pit of hell" and that you as a parishoner were grossly sinful and you were not a true follower of God as you needed to be "pure". Again, this sermon must have been quite upsetting for the faithful to hear that they were in essensce, not able to live up to what God needed and expected of them. It is quite excited language that is used and some of the most angry references could sit with a parishoner for some time!

    8. The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect, over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked; his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire; he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight; you are ten thousand times so abominable in his eyes as the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours. You have offended him infinitely more than ever a stubborn rebel did his prince: and yet ’tis nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment; ’tis to be ascribed to nothing else, that you did not go to hell the last night; that you was suffered to awake again in this world, after you closed your eyes to sleep: and there is no other reason to be given why you have not dropped into hell since you arose in the morning, but that God’s hand has held you up; there is no other reason to be given why you han’t gone to hell since you have sat here in the house of God, provoking his pure eyes by your sinful wicked manner of attending his solemn worship: yea, there is nothing else that is to be given as a reason why you don’t this very moment drop down into hell. O sinner! Consider the fearful danger you are in: ’tis a great furnace of wrath, a wide and bottomless pit, full of the fire of wrath, that you are held over in the hand of that God, whose wrath is provoked and incensed as much against you as against many of the damned in hell; you hang by a slender thread, with the flames of divine wrath flashing about it, and ready every moment to singe it, and burn it asunder; and you have no interest in any mediator, and nothing to lay hold of to save yourself, nothing to keep off the flames of wrath, nothing of your own, nothing that you ever have done, nothing that you can do, to induce God to spare you one moment… Consider this, you that are here present, that yet remain in an unregenerate state. That God will execute the fierceness of his anger, implies that he will inflict wrath without any pity… you will be a vessel of wrath fitted to destruction; and there will be no other use of this vessel but only to be filled full of wrath: God will be so far from pitying you when you cry to him, that ’tis said he will only laugh and mock

      The power of repetition is shown throughout. Repetition of how terrifying hell is, how almighty God is, and how we are all sinners; all for Edwards to instill fear, make people believe that hell is real, and possibly renew people in the faith of God.

    9. That world of misery, that lake of burning brimstone is extended abroad under you. There is the dreadful pit of the glowing flames of the wrath of God; there is hell’s wide gaping mouth open; and you have nothing to stand upon, nor anything to take hold of: there is nothing between you and hell but the air; ’tis only the power and mere pleasure of God that holds you up. You probably are not sensible of this; you find you are kept out of hell, but don’t see the hand of God in it, but look at other things, as the good state of your bodily constitution, your care of your own life, and the means you use for your own preservation. But indeed these things are nothing; if God should withdraw his hand, they would avail no more to keep you from falling, than the thin air to hold up a person that is suspended in it…. The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect, over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked; his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire; he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight; you are ten thousand times so abominable in his eyes as the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours. You have offended him infinitely more than ever a stubborn rebel did his prince: and yet ’tis nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment; ’tis to be ascribed to nothing else, that you did not go to hell the last night; that you was suffered to awake again in this world, after you closed your eyes to sleep: and there is no other reason to be given why you have not dropped into hell since you arose in the morning, but that God’s hand has held you up; there is no other reason to be given why you han’t gone to hell since you have sat here in the house of God, provoking his pure eyes by your sinful wicked manner of attending his solemn worship: yea, there is nothing else that is to be given as a reason why you don’t this very moment drop down into hell. O sinner! Consider the fearful danger you are in: ’tis a great furnace of wrath, a wide and bottomless pit, full of the fire of wrath, that you are held over in the hand of that God, whose wrath is provoked and incensed as much against you as against many of the damned in hell; you hang by a slender thread, with the flames of divine wrath flashing about it, and ready every moment to singe it, and burn it asunder; and you have no interest in any mediator, and nothing to lay hold of to save yourself, nothing to keep off the flames of wrath, nothing of your own, nothing that you ever have done, nothing that you can do, to induce God to spare you one moment… Consider this, you that are here present, that yet remain in an unregenerate state. That God will execute the fierceness of his anger, implies that he will inflict wrath without any pity… you will be a vessel of wrath fitted to destruction; and there will be no other use of this vessel but only to be filled full of wrath: God will be so far from pitying you when you cry to him, that ’tis said he will only laugh and mock (Proverbs 1:25-32)… How dreadful is the state of those that are daily and hourly in danger of this great wrath, and infinite misery! But this is the dismal case of every soul in this congregation, that has not been born again, however moral and strict, sober and religious they may otherwise be. Oh that you would consider it, whether you be young or old. There is reason to think, that there are many in this congregation now hearing this discourse, that will actually be the subjects of this very misery to all eternity. We know not who they are, or in what seats they sit, or what thoughts they now have: it may be they are now at ease, and hear all these things without much disturbance, and are now flattering themselves that they are not the persons, promising themselves that they shall escape. If we knew that there was one person, and but one, in the whole congregation that was to be the subject of this misery, what an awful thing would it be to think of! If we knew who it was, what an awful sight would it be to see such a person! How might all the rest of the congregation lift up a lamentable and bitter cry over him! But alas! instead of one, how many is it likely will remember this discourse in hell? And it would be a wonder if some that are now present, should not be in hell in a very short time, before this year is out. And it would be no wonder if some person that now sits here in some seat of this meeting house in health, and quiet and secure, should be there before tomorrow morning. Those of you that finally continue in a natural condition, that shall keep out of hell longest, will be there in a little time! your damnation don’t slumber; it will come swiftly, and in all probability very suddenly upon many of you. You have reason to wonder, that you are not already in hell. ‘Tis doubtless the case of some that heretofore you have seen and known, that never deserved hell more than you, and that heretofore appeared as likely to have been now alive as you: their case is past all hope; they are crying in extreme misery and perfect despair; but here you are in the land of the living, and in the house of God, and have an opportunity to obtain salvation. What would not those poor damned, hopeless souls give for one day’s such opportunity as you now enjoy! And now you have an extraordinary opportunity, a day wherein Christ has flung the door of mercy wide open, and stands in the door calling and crying with a loud voice to poor sinners; a day wherein many are flocking to him, and pressing into the kingdom of God; many are daily coming from the east, west, north and south; many that were very lately in the same miserable condition that you are in, are in now an happy state, with their hearts filled with love to him that has loved them and washed them from their sins in his own blood, and rejoicing in hope of the glory of God. How awful is it to be left behind at such a day! To see so many others feasting, while you are pining and perishing! To see so many rejoicing and singing for joy of heart, while you have cause to mourn for sorrow of heart, and howl for vexation of spirit! How can you rest one moment in such a condition? Are not your souls as precious as the souls of the people at Suffield,7 where they are flocking from day to day to Christ? … And you children that are unconverted, don’t you know that you are going down to hell, to bear the dreadful wrath of that God that is now angry with you every day, and every night? Will you be content to be the children of the devil, when so many other children in the land are converted, and are become the holy and happy children of the King of kings? And let everyone that is yet out of Christ, and hanging over the pit of hell, whether they be old men and women, or middle aged, or young people, or little children, now hearken to the loud calls of God’s Word and providence. This acceptable year of the Lord, that is a day of such great favor to some, will doubtless be a day of as remarkable vengeance to others… Therefore let everyone that is out of Christ, now awake and fly from the wrath to come. The wrath of almighty God is now undoubtedly hanging over great part of this congregation: let everyone fly out of Sodom. Haste and escape for your lives, look not behind you, escape to the mountain, lest you be consumed [Genesis 19:17].

      While I agree with the overall message, the actual delivery is much different than what we would encounter today. In today's society, we are encouraged to be politically correct and avoid offending others; sometimes, that is not the most effective. When matters are sugar-coated, there is room for people to find some margin to justify their wrong-doings. For example, how many times after you've done something wrong, i.e., frivolously spent money, told a small lie, etc. and later found yourself trying to justify it? Edwards is leaving little room for justification and explicitly details what will happen if people do not live by God's Word. Though fear was the prevailing tactic, the goal was to have as many conversions to Christianity as possible in a time where many were desensitized to the church and beginning to lean on their own understanding. A majority of the congregation was in tears during the sermon; this can be counted as a victory for Edwards. Their reactions show that members felt convicted, which in turn, may compel them to form or strengthen their relationship with God so that they may have salvation.

    10. you are ten thousand times so abominable in his eyes as the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours. You have offended him infinitely more than ever a stubborn rebel did his prince: and yet ’tis nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment;

      He hates you, he doesn't even want to look at you, but he protects you from falling into hell. Paint a bleak picture and a potential drop into hell, and offer them a way to escape that fate. I would imagine at the time it was very successful in getting the message across.

    11. The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect, over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked; his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire; he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight; you are ten thousand times so abominable in his eyes as the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours. You have offended him infinitely more than ever a stubborn rebel did his prince: and yet ’tis nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment; ’tis to be ascribed to nothing else, that you did not go to hell the last night; that you was suffered to awake again in this world, after you closed your eyes to sleep: and there is no other reason to be given why you have not dropped into hell since you arose in the morning, but that God’s hand has held you up; there is no other reason to be given why you han’t gone to hell since you have sat here in the house of God, provoking his pure eyes by your sinful wicked manner of attending his solemn worship: yea, there is nothing else that is to be given as a reason why you don’t this very moment drop down into hell.

      I am not at all a religious person. I have attended church in the past as a child, but never consistently. I'm not sure if it matters because according this sermon, we were all born hanging on by a thread. At God's will, we could just burn for all eternity just because he feels like it. This is not meant to be inspiring, but more threatening. Either worship God or burn in hell, even though you are already destined to be there! No matter your religious beliefs, this sermon is alarming. The intent is to install fear and ensure of devotion to the church.

    12. and yet ’tis nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment; ’tis to be ascribed to nothing else, that you did not go to hell the last night; that you was suffered to awake again in this world, after you closed your eyes to sleep: and there is no other reason to be given why you have not dropped into hell since you arose in the morning, but that God’s hand has held you up; there is no other reason to be given why you han’t gone to hell since you have sat here in the house of God, provoking his pure eyes by your sinful wicked manner of attending his solemn worship: yea, there is nothing else that is to be given as a reason why you don’t this very moment drop down into hell.

      Edwards is depicting the image that God is the only thing keeping you alive. God is the only thing that allowed you to wake up this morning and allowed you to stay alive throughout the day. God is what kept you alive, because he has the ability to cause your death and sentence to hell immediately afterwards.

    13. The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect, over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked; his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire; he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight; you are ten thousand times so abominable in his eyes as the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours. You have offended him infinitely more than ever a stubborn rebel did his prince: and yet ’tis nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment; ’tis to be ascribed to nothing else, that you did not go to hell the last night; that you was suffered to awake again in this world, after you closed your eyes to sleep: and there is no other reason to be given why you have not dropped into hell since you arose in the morning, but that God’s hand has held you up; there is no other reason to be given why you han’t gone to hell since you have sat here in the house of God, provoking his pure eyes by your sinful wicked manner of attending his solemn worship: yea, there is nothing else that is to be given as a reason why you don’t this very moment drop down into hell. O sinner! Consider the fearful danger you are in: ’tis a great furnace of wrath, a wide and bottomless pit, full of the fire of wrath, that you are held over in the hand of that God, whose wrath is provoked and incensed as much against you as against many of the damned in hell; you hang by a slender thread, with the flames of divine wrath flashing about it, and ready every moment to singe it, and burn it asunder; and you have no interest in any mediator, and nothing to lay hold of to save yourself, nothing to keep off the flames of wrath, nothing of your own, nothing that you ever have done, nothing that you can do, to induce God to spare you one moment…
           Religions are meant to instill morality into people’s mindset. Understanding the basic concept of morality may facilitate in analyzing this piece of the excerpt of the sermon. In this section, Jonathan Edwards used punishment to convince people to convert. He described how angry god is for our sins, and later he described the risk of us being thrown into the hell fire for eternity unless we repented. If you recall in Philosophy class, Kohlberg’s 3 stages of moral concept ranging from pre-convention, convention, and post-convention. The first stage is what Jonathan Edwards used here, in this stage it claimed that people abide by rules due to fear of punishment. The second stage, Kohlberg believes that, people abide by rules to conform to society or to be accepted. The last stage, the most advanced stage that most people do not reach, claimed that people choose to practice morality based on their personal abstract principles. 
      
           It is challenging to objectively determine that converting or repenting makes a person ‘good’, or not doing so means a person is sinful. It is, however, part of the main goal the Europeans initially intended to do to spread the words of god. Edwards worked towards this goal by using fear of punishment, the least complex level of the moral concept, to gain the cooperation of the community. The fact that this piece of the sermon was well known and accepted by the society during its time led me to believe that the rise in Christianity was occurring during the 18th century. 
      
    14. The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect, over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked; his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire; he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight; you are ten thousand times so abominable in his eyes as the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours. You have offended him infinitely more than ever a stubborn rebel did his prince: and yet ’tis nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment; ’tis to be ascribed to nothing else, that you did not go to hell the last night; that you was suffered to awake again in this world, after you closed your eyes to sleep: and there is no other reason to be given why you have not dropped into hell since you arose in the morning, but that God’s hand has held you up; there is no other reason to be given why you han’t gone to hell since you have sat here in the house of God, provoking his pure eyes by your sinful wicked manner of attending his solemn worship: yea, there is nothing else that is to be given as a reason why you don’t this very moment drop down into hell.

      Jonathan Edwards presents God as being so angry that He's just waiting to cast the listeners into hell. The imagery accomplishes the goal; to provoke fear and a sense of helplessness. The message was to create an understanding that salvation and regeneration was an individual matter; not obtained by being in the church or having an elite status The Puritan church was a product of the Catholic and Anglican churches,so the intimidation factor is understandable. . The Christian church had drifted so far from the original gospel message and I find the sermon tone to be a stark contrast to the famous New Testament verse, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whoever believes in Him will be saved." (John 3:16).

    15. The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect, over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked; his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire; he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight; you are ten thousand times so abominable in his eyes as the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours. You have offended him infinitely more than ever a stubborn rebel did his prince: and yet ’tis nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment; ’tis to be ascribed to nothing else, that you did not go to hell the last night; that you was suffered to awake again in this world, after you closed your eyes to sleep: and there is no other reason to be given why you have not dropped into hell since you arose in the morning, but that God’s hand has held you up; there is no other reason to be given why you han’t gone to hell since you have sat here in the house of God, provoking his pure eyes by your sinful wicked manner of attending his solemn worship: yea, there is nothing else that is to be given as a reason why you don’t this very moment drop down into hell.

      His interpretation of God is very hostile and threatening. Jonathan Edwards seems to be doing all he can to regain a fearful and meek congregation. He sounds very condescending by paralleling the listener as a spider. Edwards seems to be regain power to the church by striking fear.

    16. ’tis nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment; ’tis to be ascribed to nothing else, that you did not go to hell the last night; that you was suffered to awake again in this world, after you closed your eyes to sleep: and there is no other reason to be given why you have not dropped into hell since you arose in the morning, but that God’s hand has held you up; there is no other reason to be given why you han’t gone to hell since you have sat here in the house of God, provoking his pure eyes by your sinful wicked manner of attending his solemn worship: yea, there is nothing else that is to be given as a reason why you don’t this very moment drop down into hell.

      I feel like this is where most people started fainting and convulsing. This part may not have been on his side well in terms of getting people to be more passionate about their relationship with God. This part either instilled fear or made people start to listen. Extremely expressive and vivid.

    1. don’t have to drop to a command line, build the DNA, configure your conductor, fire up a DNA instance, and open your web browser. Press the ‘build’ button and the app just appears in the interface, ready to use.

      press the build button and the interface the app appears on the interface ready to use

    1. You needn't be afraid of them Wh . . en you see them, JUSt remember that you, too, like all other human bemgs, were once a monster in one of your previous lives Neither hate them nor do battle with them, just continu~ on your way. There is only one thing you must remember: when you are in the city where the Fire Bird lives, you must not drink a single drop of water:'

      Has anyone ever seen Guillermo del Toro's "Pan's Labyrinth"? This section reminds me of a specific scene where the fawn instructs Ofelia to journey into a "monster's" lair and he tells her she cannot touch the banquet that lies before her. Not to mention, she creates her own door to the lair using a piece of chalk (creating her own crossing). The importance of journeying to a new land but maintaining a non-presence evokes the same imagery as not drinking any water where the Fire-bird lives.

  32. Jul 2020
    1. So my conceptualization of “the heavens” and Heaven … it’s changed quite a bit in the last year or so. I’ve come to believe … through the telling and retelling of this story of “dsiconvering it” … that we are actually living inside some kind of graphene or carbon nanotube structure (probably with a DNA/RNA like … secondary structure), literally submerged inside something like pools or compression chambers of liquid gas–like oxygen, nitrogen, and hydrogen. It’s kind of like … the negative connotation of “lakes” in Kaleb’s “don’t be the lake” turned upsidown on it’s head–obviously in the original … vision you would imagine fresh water lakes were something like “milk” … (as opposed to meat) … the stuff of life and birth. You can see how those gases would deliver “liquid cooling” like we’d need for super fast Cray and Sun super compvters … and also stored energy for … things like propulsion as well as the creation of “human life habitable environments.” I’d like to [say I came up with the whole thing miraculously and solo (it’s Monday, btw), like Newton invented gravity and Einstein … the blackhole. what came first … the chicken or the egg? the road or the maize? … is theQ: “can we it ourselves to Acts?” On and on, the circle of Ourorobus turns; who then, came first … Adam or Abraham? Cain or Abel? Adam past Lincoln or … Link of Zelda? And the Legend; marred and mired toto end by spelling errors and bad grammar. round and round we go … truly the question here is “do you think you, yourselves, are civilized?” and my answer … the less you think that, the more civilzed you are. this place is sick, it needs some “medicine.” What is a Gremlar? What does pillows and sheets have to do with Q&A and … and Room 101? Does “dirty pillows” win the award and accolades for the most informative chosen name? Does Yehuda Berg? Would anyone object to calling it “O’riordian Way” … is it Monceres or are we already wondering if Betheljoos must already have some kind of connection to Orion? Did Dolores know the whole time? The whole fucking time? I satyed up practically all night tonight … almost stone cold sober … to finish writing this before our final “Northeasterer.” THE **MONO**LOGUE **C**ONTINUES, **UNDERSTAND ME**. It doesn’t take much “thought” to see these star charts–our Astrological road maps to ‘wisdom of the Ancients’ might actually be something closer to road maps than I could have previously fathomed–let alone imagined. I’m staring at “Monoceros” and seeing it’s definately connected to “the kissing disease” and to Eros and to Cupid–and seeing … this one not for the first time that character linked to Orion and to the “Speare” of Sagittarius. I’ve commented … ‘on the show in my head’ that it seems the entirety of the Milky Way might be something like our world … it could be a microcosmic map to something much larger–it could be the seed of “galaxies” in this place that might very well be the “thing” that connects the end and the beginning; rather than the beginning and the end as I once … commented was the original “glyph” i read in the letter “H.” Today though, this is all “sci-fi conjecture” we have a very real problem–one that we aren’t dealing with well, and it’s a hidden sickness that’s turned the whole of the world to seeing my “nightmare of isolation.” It’s no accident that most of European and South American culture … “kisses” friends and family “on greeting” … hello, we today are shunning ‘social contact’ … a think that’s responsible for sharing antibodies and using social structure to naturally battle outbreaks of diseases … exactly like this “Sun virus” today. I imagine it’s no accident I’m writing this “Norther” about “no Passover” and … “no east from here” and hoping you understand that means something–it means we’ve got stop lying, and stop pretending this place doesn’t matter. This place matters, this is the source of Heaven, and the future, and … whatever it is that you apparently think you “covet in secret” and … has allowed you to stand by idylly … and do nothing as the fabric of our social structure simply “disappears.” That’s civilization, society, the rule of law and order – “it’s kissing” – and those aren’t the only things we are apparently “losing in the fire.” I’ve previously written and spoken numerous times about DNA storag e; it’s benefits and … the slow assimilation of this clearly “Heavenly” technology … which I saw in the most ironic of tones–looking around clearly you see this place is the hearth of creation, and “biology” itself is tantamount to absolute and unequivocal proof that Heaven itself does indeed come from something almost exactly like this rock, right down to graphene and tertiary logic and molecular storage–of course I didn’t awlays “think” or know that fact, but upon inspection and with the eye’s aid, it’s very–I mean very–obvious/clear. [LOOK MA … NEWS. IT’S REALLY ACTUAL NEWSWORTHY NEWS] I’ve previously also written about “the game” (for the non goyim among us, game-yah-him on the Epic of Gilgamesh and its historical connection to the story of the flood and Noah’s ark… as it was in the days of…) of the colonization of the red planet Mars; as well as the map that does very much exist in our “SOL” and it’s orbiting simulated rocks… here taking this one step further and suggesting that our “military key way from wall” (and/or see the M and the IL … the IT the CIA and the IR (what a poet I am)) … to assume that things like the “Mono/c/Eros” constellation might very well “overlay in a metalcosmic way” over say, the link between Beetlejuice and RIGELA … and that something like the Crab Nebula might very well become … something like Andromeda is not beyond the imagination or the fathom-ability of our new “raelity.” Along those same lines, the “kissing disease” and it’s link to the Unicycle of “verses” about Versailles in a Tale of Two Heavens … begin to suggest the Fire of Saint Anthony is nearly fully aflame–even if it is still those “invisible flames” of not speaking and … quenching our desire to “get a word or two in” might just … douse the whole thing in Holy Water. Hi Kate. :) I mean, Stillwater, and “still… water.” The point here, that we might be in the place where Yosef Stalin’s middle name and the “o no” of … that’s a failsafe that might very well use time travel to wipe out the … post Orion/Eros star … “O’riordan”'s which only turned from Roads leaning towards abandoning Rome to … rivers of magical anti-matter autopropulsion (re-y-rios) … in the past few months … story. Of course the “Naqueducts” as I’ve come to expand the NT appreviation to become … after of course my personal (for obvious reasons, right?) distaste for things like “Easter” and Crucifixion … having anything at all do with a religion or a society of morality or “truth.” That’s “kissing the ‘o no’” which … heralds from “ME-V-AT-HI to MISSISSIPPI and CONNETICUT and KANSAS and IOWA.” … in Florida today, Flux Capacitor engaged; and literally staring at Netflix and … Pauline; **wondering.**x Before …or maybe during or after or even up until … just this past day … we might have had another kind of military microcosm; or perhaps your truth, connecting the Hebrew for Heaven, which is “shamayim” … for “fiery waters” or “really hot girls” or … maybe Heaven existed on nuclear “u-boats” puttering around the Dark Side of the Moon or maybe even just our dark Pacific, Atlantic, and Arctic … oh sea; do sea the oceans here have something about Pa linking to “see if I see the C” missing from the Indian–the one ocean standing out here without that particular letter, or perhaps “concept.” Stargate turned me on to the idea of a subterrainian similar “bunker like” facility in the Arctic; and you can probably also see how that’s something like an ocean or a wilderness … another place we wouldn’t necessarily be looking – or noticing these are “disaster plan” style locations for something like a network of computers … something like the mesh-net that might very well be in orbit around the Earth … in that thing that sets “the sky’s the limit” as yet another “special place” in the hearts of those that … want to survive the original problem: being stuck in one place, on one tiny little planet succeptible to self destruction or an asteroid or … a collision of galaxies or … who knows–it could just be an eternity with not enough oil to reach gravitational escape velocity (keep burning it all!!!) and roads so backwards and archaic when I mention they should have “electrical power to inductively charge my Tesla” someone actually overheard me and had the nerve to call me a “genius.” Which of course I am; I definately am that. What I am describing is something like … well, it’s basically WarGames meets Battleship … meets the very real connection between Vietnam and NamCo and Pac-Man, and the reason this “book” has this particular name–connection the Revolution of Nero’s Symphony … to … I mean, I called it “Pax Abraxis” here–but it’s really got very little to do with Jupiter Ascending and much more to do with … the rest of the world doing something other than descending far and fast into the central syllable of Jupiter. It … doesn’t take a genius to point out or see Pac-Man is simply missing the “SE” of … turn around this southeast miserable spectacle of immorality and nearly “instantly” we see “space” and … a world that doesn’t have to guess whether or not this is aqua-rious business or not. Who I am is … this guy and that Wikipedia page and it’s log of touches and changes is probably almost if not mroe important that my Facebook page [if you achem, follow me I’ll be sure to send a friend request] … though that’s best way to get in contact with me; and if anyone was actually interested in “working on the Sword/Round Table” of Arthur … with “Arthor” you’d probably find eventually it’s that communication and that "assistance’ that turns out to be way more fruitful and … “Sliding Doors” and “Go” and … nothing compares to the change wrought by seeing … what you truly are, having your mind opened to the “hive’s nasty side” … as the new American Standard for “X-Caliber” and “what’s liberty worth, anyway?” glooms out from behind the dark clouds of Kish’s night time “it’s not a right, nor a rite” what we are looking at, I’ve always called “pantomiming the end of time” … it could be that, we could be “not going back.” THE DEVLIN ME … “IS THE DEVIL IN YOU, OR ARE YOU IN IT?” T’was cues like “and your husband wants to be a girl” … and the sincerely overgrown thread of “homosexuality” in this story … that lead me to ascertain that it was “many years in Heaven” and many (fewer) years “as not just one person” that probably would make those things almost … certain to come true. It is true, today; I think it probably still would be fun to be a girl for a day; or walking through a special gate into a special “room” in my holodeck dreams–it’s that kind of understanding that gleans light into … how it is that we might, in that same place and same circumstances become "more open to things like ‘violence’ that we today, still here in this place do abhor–and very well should. Gnosis … maybe something like instant enlightenment … I think that’s the fun stuff that heaven .,., should be alla bout; and frankly I’m sick and tired of having to dream about it, and not start playing with it here and now. Seeing my old “win the sun dance” sticker my computer … and hearing Taylor sing about “you’re never gonna dance with me” and Brit too … connect it to “drinking from the Devil’s cup” and the real “stuff of the pool of Bethesda” … it’s a Holy thing; a … kind of like sparring with a sex partner; in my mind anyway–like experiencing whatever it is that girls call “multiple orgasms” if there ever was such a thing before we could … you know, like MCO … or Azriel’s “forklift moment” wherever I was between Scottsdale and New Mexico; you can see I … see we have it. Or … something like it … and instead of those things, instead of bliss and … making more fun more exciting and more … intelligent message … We're stuck here talking about violence, and "will we ever have school again" not because of a song about "out for summer" or "blown to pieces" but because you're really zombies--you don't talk, you don't seem to think this place is important; and you're wrong everywhere is important, and if you leave one stone unturned; or ignore the pain and suffering of ... one small place ... it festers and grows and really proves you don't deserve the "sun dance" or the ability to decide "right and wrong" anywhere, really ever--in your current state. See that, see this sickness needs to change; and I do mean your response to the "Corona Virus" as much as I mean your response to "Sandy Hook" and ... well, it must all be my fault, are you fucking retarded? Just to "put it out there" ... I'm not wandering the cold streets looking for warm water, or somewhere "main eventish" to swim or hang out all day--I'm looking for a girl that wants to go skinny dipping with me ... on like, call it "Universal TV ..."  Just once, or ... I mean the book says twice, but I'll do it first alone, just to make sure it's safe. … the jaya-jaya … EARTHENE, THEY HAVE NEWS … the Heavenues of our heroads; heroes and yes, we the Terrans; we can do that. I mean be heroes, I hope you click on my links and really get the “gist” of what it means to read things with your eyes and type them with your hands; and how that differs from “the thing” I’m trying to build here, which is a … “I know kung fu” for … pretty much everything … that’s a plug in … into your head (don’t drop out, but tune in) … to pretty much “know everything” so long as you understand that really does mean know everything … someone or some “other thing” wnats you to know and believe. I think we know … or we should that we build “truth tables” … as in some system that allows for truth to be verified and lies to be verified and the large tertiary “opinion” in between to be gauged and colored (my word for … weighting of value) … individually. This is the “crux” of the whole of the system of … “it’s not voting, but information about what we’re voting about” which in other circles would be “colored as propaganda” and that’s basically what it is–it’s what I called it … before and now. That’s not to turn you off from it–on the contrary it’s to help you get excited about being involved in it–even if it’s oinly in some “group-think” or (ARCHIVE: arxiv.org) passive … I don’t read the papers, but I look at statistics, and I know how to guage whether or not … some group is “interested” or … acting appropriately. You’re not, none of you are acting appropriately here and now. You want to blame me–or torture me–or worse, torture yourselves by thinking … yoiu have something you don’t; and perhaps blame … anything other than not acting (its a verb, it means “literally doing something” not “prewtending” in this context) and reading and writing … conversing. That’s the thing that ends school shootings and world hunger–which we should be able to do nearly instantly–it’s just a matter of … time and chance … or how we want to proceed; and whether or not you want to proceed at all, and I mean if you dont want to end world hunger, you don’t want to proceed with “living.” Hear me; I’m roaring … these things are not optional. Your survival here; that’s optional. Mine is not. Sorry; b1ow me. There is something very wrong here–I’ve been thrust into the center of it … I see it and I’ve written about it, tried as hard as I possibly could to “see you in the best light possible” to find your excuses and to find real honest solutions … with the amazing amount of hidden secrets that I’ve been shown–handed–given for no reason at all … or so it appears today. Instead of fun things, and “safe things” and … “helping others things” you appear to be focused on “negative things” like how bad can you be, and how much … sickness can you spread–I spent the last several years fighting a war against “attrition” and "charrming (in the most negative sense) … mind control and lies and secrets and I’m surrounded by a group of people, everyone I see everywhere that’s become almost convinced that they can do pretty much whatever they want–and they’re dead wrong. This place is sick–this world is disgusting; it always was so, but we didn’t always know it and that… that makes a big difference. The children here–“gen Z” appears to have been born in tandem, in two places; here and there; and that’s an interesting observation and a guess, and it ties to their name and how they interacat with me specifically. I can tell you categorically I wasn’t and … many in my generation probably were not. It’s Earthene; the three sets of “E” that actually to me, in special code stand for “angels” over the coarse of time that is our … lifetime here in this place I’ve called and still believe is something like the “syslog of Heaven” in newage geek-speak … to the sages and the Ages, that’s the Rock of Ages; and it’s the thing that comes before and after Heaven, all the time; over and over … in whatever story or place Heaven “does that.” Heaven of course has a similar connotation in mythology and religion, the thing that travels through or “pervades” or makes “time itself” obsolete. Or so they think, or whatever; I don’t understand much of what it’s like to be … “timeless” or a tyemporal and I dont think that far ahead when I play chess; but I’ve got the help of God, and he’s on my side … believe that, receive that. I can tell you categorically that … the first time I was here; and “in the beginning of this place” the generation before me was not … was not at all born in two places; or even “ascended” at the same time as Generation X … the one that I … am sure is marked as the crossroads and the “sweet spot” for a good reason. I have … “markers” in my memory and in my history, the phrase “my parents love(d) you” … spoken to me by numerous people at my high school, in this sort of … “mechanical and methodical way” to explain that of course, they had faith in Jesus Chrsit and they were upset that they weren’t ascended … at the same time as their children; I imagine they felt “unsaved … by me” and … their kids probably didn’t … know how upset I must have been, not to have been around to explain. Here it’s clear that the reason … the reason for this place and the entirety of our timeline and our wonderful “crash course” in understanding sandbox computing and the building of Heaven is just that; that before us there was a world mired in “might and magic” and they believed … incantations and sorcerers and witches … those were things they needed–that’s the stuff of the beginning of salvation, in truth. Of course it’s the hidden part, before hidden part about “salvaging” it’s the “non-civilization” that was … destroyed–I think in the book we say “from the ashes of Edom.” I watched my generation lead the way; we were the pivot point, the difference between “cell phones and instant messaging” and that was a big deal back then; when there was no SMS or texting and there were no keyboards on your phone; it was a big deal to know how to type, and a big deal to know how to write … before that. dot dot dot I write to you … every day I do it; with an informal style; I am writing to friends, in a way that you should understand is literally the thing that I call “praying” … I am praying to you, and hoping you understand I don’t believe in prayer, but I do believe in the power of this group, I believe in the power of humanity, and I believe that we should literally force the entirety of everthing to instantly become “humane” in this place where I believe Heaven itself and “uncivilization in the sky” and the prospect of “immortality” has created a disgusting monster that bleieves that thing to be “guaranteed” and … their “right” and to look at you today, I am very sure none of you have that right, guaranteed–none of you. You look at me here; and honestly to tell me to uhh, “El Shaddai” with the purpose of saving me from the torture you see mimmicked or pantamimed; that mightr be a holy thing, if that’s what you said and meant–i don’t see it often though, most of the time … “should I though?” … has some other (it’s shaddai, "should die or…’) sort of sick double entendre; double speak meaning. You should learn here–you are children and you are weak and you are blind and you are wrong; and when you know those things … you should “seek something more.” Kennedy spoke decades ago about the world being invaded; something coming from the sky, a “vast conspiracy that took the minds of our people right out from under us” … he spoke about it’s difference from the human way, aqnd the way of our civilzation and he was appalled, rightfully so. He spoke about it fighting with hidden tactics, “night” over “day” and he spoke about our need to fight secrecy. He was a genius that day, and in that time; literally a genius. In a few days I’ll talk about the joint Russian and American response to this invasion, it’s part of our history and it’s part of religion–it was literally a gigantic nuclear attack on … on “the darkness” … it was not successful–as you can very clearly see. So this whole email was supposed to be about “sliding doors” and showing you the perspective change … the thing I’ve been trying to explain is something that Heaven does–it changes everything. The prospect of living forever; of becoming younger, of “turning sex into a fun … four hour game” … it changes everything. On the other side of the coin it also turns “grave danger” into a key phrase, and a key movie–A Few Good Men–must be all who understand. You see before Heaven “grave danger” was the worst kind, it was the kind that would quickly “show you to your grave” as in kill you. After … this thing and this place; the prospects of something far worse than that are not just “looming” or … “hiding under the surface” they are immediately obvious and scarier than shit. I’m sure there’s a plan–something to ensure that we never … ever again … have that kind of danger actually looking at us, and saying “it’s for you–I’m doing this for you.” I think this … this experience and this message … this is the beginning of that thing–the solution to ths scary problem. In between this and you … that’s the continuation of the solution, and it’s got something to do with the “Kinghts of Hyrosol;” and it’s got quite a bit to do with all the work that’s gone into shoving me onto this pedistal; and that word; it’s got almost nothing to do with … pornography or even pediatricians; though as the Pope says … in half speak … you need a vetrinarian. Janet Devlin’s got some great music and some great insight. I heard this song “Chandeliers” and it was almost the same feeling as my “my parents really loved you” … experience. It was a … a message about a world that was hidden … and to me at first that world was Heaven; it was a message from her parents sort of telling her about it–that they’d seen it and that she will in the future. I recently re-heard this song, and it’s only one small “connotation change” or colouring of … understanding … it’s just seeing the words “hidden world” as … actually about this world–that changes everything. My change in understanding; that there’s a large … “other place” looking at this tiny gem that literally is my totality it’s everything i’ve ever seen or ever known and it’s this logical place with math and science and art and it’s a great world–it’s a great place I’ve seen devistated and destroyed by a large group … … literally all of you … of ignorant people that can’t say one honest word to me–an entire planet full of fucking liars; all pretending they … are something they know they aren’t in some kind of thing they think is a game. This is not a game; this is the … “judge jury and … coroner” … this place; this place is the one that’s sort of “pre and post judgement” all in one strange story of “it was all here the whole time, we’ve had the answer … we just, didn’t understand.” It’s a place of death and of rebirth, it’s a place of love and of … the end of hate–it’s a place where if you understand; you are being reborn, as I speak, as you read–as the world turns we are being changed into something … God, I hope it’s not to something scary and horrible and not worthy of my … "attention. Understand, not being able to communicate honestly, that’s not worthy of my attention. Thinking “singing a song about Eros” is communicating with me; that’s not worthy of … “honesty” or “reality” or … think about it. She’s got some other songs; “things we lost in the fire” and I thought myself very clever to think “hands and speaking” were a good … answer to her question; I didn’t realize it was going to add (i mean the place, the story; the holy shit) stores and democracy and voting and … jobs and … friends. I didn’t know that safety was on the chopping block; I thought we were in the “ICS” land of that means … walking with him with “oh no, not me–we never lost control” … the God that wrote those lyrics; it means I see … “God’s total control of everything” and that’s kind of what the silence and the smiles and my continued happiness through this war of attrition and shunning and sickness … that’s really what it means to me. this is not a t3st. janet, "get" w/me ... "i" mean it. #anokhi I owe Janet some more loving; so you might also want to listen to her song “House of Cards” and … I don’t really like the new one, the “Saint of the Sinners)” of course she knows what I think about the word “saint” it’s one I get rid of; Reyagnost" … #lol. Janet, I’m curious if you were born here, and … only here first. I can’t guess–I’d say others I know were, some others weren’t … I’d say most of the generation I … I think you’re a Millennial; to me that’s basically Gen X2; but we’ll see, you might just be better liars, or “two-place-people version 7.0” instead of the current XP2000CHIROWERA–anyway; … really see Heaven has done something horrible to “you all” and our “all reason” … that’s the problem–we have “all” problem and our “all is sick” and that’s a problem. We’re all in “multiverse idiocy land” looking at lllllllllllllll and not seeing that these tools have a good purpose, and we’re (i mean you all) are using them wrong. I don’t see it, or understand what you’re telling me … well enough to expound more than; just to say you should probably try to use the stuff you have … “with more holiness” or more altruism or … maybe we should stick a governor on everything (which is actually my plan). Of course, I don’t understand why we’d build a virtual shotgun without a safety … si.ystem … not just a child-guard. Whatever. The problem with this whole “perspective argument” and the Go/Sliding Doors … thing; it’s that there really is only one way to see this event and this world and this problem; and that’s the solution. It’s my way; it’s the truth and it’s with a history and accuracy of … “not some other person in some other time” and “not through the control of some other entity” … it’s actually doing this right, not your way. Literally, your way is bullshit. HEINOUS, EPIMETHEUS … BURPHAGUS … MY PEROGEE ;) HEY BRITNEY; DOES “A PIECE OF ME” MEAN … “LIKE … A PIECE OF ASS)?” IFI YESSM, PLZ just asking, or adding … is this “piece of me” and the … “momma don’t cry” one-- are they from another timeline? like, “to and fro” or … was I just out of it? honestly, I do think … Taylor’s “Far From Never” is … actually … from another timeline–like I think it was previous “mega-hit” just imported here as some kind of “early, unlabeled work.” and here; to continue my thread of “what’s new and exciting–I mean different and … scarily new” … it was in Kentucky when I first noticed through re-reading the ancient mythology that I’d studied in grade school, high school, college, and on my own (over and over) the character I assumed was newly added there, the brother of Prometheus–“lack of forethought” and with the special Eye of Enoch walking with God ascertained these brothers were one; and today link again to Vegas, to the ancient story of the founding of Rome and the brothers Romulus(t) and Remus(nt). Menoitius (read: i know it, I shush us; or “i know it, I am us”) didn’t show up in my reading until 2017 in Cali; and that one sort of parallels this message … it appears to be something like an Olympian sent “back in time” to become the parent or progenitor of the brothers. He’s called a Titan; though, you’d think the generation birthing Titans would be … maybe not. We have a new candidate for “newest addition to the Great Olympian Ogdoad Descending” … it’s this character; and whoa, it’s a little scary for me to see: In Greek mythology, Iapetus (/aɪˈæpɪtəs/)[1] (also Japetus (Ancient Greek: Ἰαπετός Iapetos))[2] was a Titan, the son of Uranus and Gaia[3][4][5][6] and father of Atlas, Prometheus, Epimetheus, and Menoetius. He was also called the father of Buphagus[7] and Anchiale[8] in other sources. Iapetus has been equated with Japheth (יֶפֶת) the son of Noah as the progenitor of mankind based on the similarity of their names and the tradition. Iapetus was linked to Japheth by 17th-century theologian Matthew Poole,[9] Robert Graves,[10] and John Pairman Brown.[11] Though in the style of the Cali changes; I actually was sure that name was “Burphagus.” Brrr. It’s frankly difficult to understand “what you all see” from the few words and the idiotic things you actually do manage to say–but things like “my truth” and … the entirety of my life and the world we live in … “don’t jive with a gay-a” … and I’m not sure just how stupid you’d have to be to “see another me” acting completely different from me, and have no logical ‘a-ha’ linking it to mind control and … say, charrrr-ming or vampiric glamouring or rape. ALL

      This program and comments are part of the website and constitution

      -a

      INTA KE CRK SOKAR Y

  33. Jun 2020
    1. Example: An officer is dispatched to an assault and upon arrival observes a person actively stabbing another person. The officer would not start at the bottom with verbal commands and then move onto empty handed controls etc.

      First, this is a misleading example. How frequently does an officer enter a scene and happen upon an assailant actively stabbing another person at the moment they arrive? How would they know, if the conflict is happening behind a closed door? And, even in that surely rare scenario of walking into a live stabbing, is it really the case that officers would not be required to shout "Stop, police, drop your weapon" before just opening fire? Even in this extremely dramatic edge case it seems like this should be required!

    1. Anyway! Your only responsibility is to do stuff that’s actually in Japanese; the remainder of the responsibility rests entirely with the Japanese stuff — media — itself. The media has a responsibility to entertain you. You don’t have to find the value in it; it has to demonstrate its value to you by being so much fun that you don’t notice time going by — by sucking you in. It has to make you wish that eating and sleep and bodily hygiene could take care of themselves because they cut into your media time. And if it doesn’t do that or it stops doing that, then you “fire” it by changing to something else. You are the boss and there are no labor laws. Fire the mother. You do the work of setting up and showing up to the environment, but after that the environment must work for you.

      This strategy reminds me of Niklas Luhmann who allegedly said that he never did anything that he didn't feel like doing.

      This is like following your curiosity 100% and it goes against a lot of the other advice out there e.g. like sitting down every day and writing.

      This also reminds me of this idea of starting as many books as possible. Drop them when they're no longer interesting to you.

  34. Apr 2020
    1. No, not an oath.  If not the face of men, The sufferance of our souls, the time's abuse — If these be motives weak, break off betimes, And every man hence to his idle bed; So let high-sighted tyranny range on,Wordplay"high-sighted"This line contains a double meaning:Caesar's tyranny is aimed at even the highest nobles of Rome.Caesar is like a hawk that flies high in order to have a good view of all the creatures it can prey upon.Wordplay"high-sighted"[Click to see note.] Till each man drop by lottery. But if these —  As I am sure they do — bear fire enough BrutusNo, not an oath. If we can't be motivated by the sad faces of our fellow men, the suffering of our souls, and the oppression of this time, let's break off and go back to our beds; so let ambitious tyranny rage on until each of us dies according to Caesar's whims. But if these reasons are enough, which I'm sure they are, to inflame cowards, and to strengthen our effeminate sprits with valor, what other spur do we need to prod us to redress the wrongs? What other bond do we need than being discreet Romans who have given their word and would never renege? What other oath do we need than honest men committed to each other, knowing that they will either triumph together or die trying? To kindle cowards, and to steel with valor The melting spirits of women, then, countrymen, What need we any spur but our own cause, To prick us to redress?  What other bond Than secret Romans, that have spoke the word, And will not palter? And what other oath Than honesty to honesty engaged, That this shall be, or we will fall for it?

      After seeing how they acted this part of the play out, it made me notice the emotion coming from Brutus

  35. Mar 2020
    1. Boulder Journey School, 2010. •Children have a right to plant flowers and plants with other people •Children have a right to grow taller•Children have a right to run or walk, to choose which one, if it's safe •Children have a right to have friends •Children have a right to touch everything, but gently, but not birds because that can scare them very much •Children have a right to pretend thatthere's a beach anywhere •Children have a right to pretend everything•Children have a right to pretend withglass, but not a right to drop it 'cause that's not safe •Children have a right to climb mountains, ski on the mountains(when there is snow), and play on the mountains (because the mountains are there for all of us to use) •Children have a right to take off theirclothes when they are hot, but not their socks •Children have a right to have fun •Children have a right to read books when they are crying (so they don'thave to talk about it right away) •Children have a right to sing, and to sing to other people •Children have a right to help otherpeople and even birds with broken wings (so it's okay for people to touch them) •Children have a right to play all day •Children have a right to twist theirown ears, but not a right to twistother people's ears (a child must ask the other person first) •Children have a right to be asked ifsomeone wants to twist their ears •Children have a right to guess how things work•Children have a right to be in love and love each other•Children have a right to eat grapes whichever way they choose, like peeling them first, if they want •Children have a right to make ideas with other people •Children have a right to be safe from fires and have firefighters ready tohelp them if there is a fire •Children have a right to fall down when they feel like being crazy •Children have a right to sleep when they are tired, or not to sleep when they are not tired, like just resting •Children have a right to have their hair look like they want, but not a rightto cut it unless they ask first •Children have a right to choose theirown clothes (and parents have aright to buy clothes for children if they want, but parents do not have a right to steal clothes) •Children have a right to never, never go to jail•Children have a right to pretend being dead and think about what it means to be dead •Children have a right to eat some cheese or an apple when they are hungry •Children have a right to good stuff thatmakes them happy •Children have a right to clean air •Children have a right to clean, fresh food to eat and if the food is dirty,they can say, 'NO!' •Children have a right to clean, cold water or clean, hot water or clean, warm water •Children have a right to chew soft gum, especially if it's the kind that cleans your teeth, but not a right to hard gum, like one might find at Copper Mountain's gumball machine •Children have a right to talk, as long as they do not inte

      This list of rights has inspired us to create a list in our school.

    2. 8 Seen and Heard FIGURE 1.2. Boulder Journey School Charter on Children's Rights.© Boulder Journey School, 2010. •Children have a right to plant flowers and plants with other people •Children have a right to grow taller•Children have a right to run or walk, to choose which one, if it's safe •Children have a right to have friends •Children have a right to touch everything, but gently, but not birds because that can scare them very much •Children have a right to pretend thatthere's a beach anywhere •Children have a right to pretend everything•Children have a right to pretend withglass, but not a right to drop it 'cause that's not safe •Children have a right to climb mountains, ski on the mountains(when there is snow), and play on the mountains (because the mountains are there for all of us to use) •Children have a right to take off theirclothes when they are hot, but not their socks •Children have a right to have fun •Children have a right to read books when they are crying (so they don'thave to talk about it right away) •Children have a right to sing, and to sing to other people •Children have a right to help otherpeople and even birds with broken wings (so it's okay for people to touch them) •Children have a right to play all day •Children have a right to twist theirown ears, but not a right to twistother people's ears (a child must ask the other person first) •Children have a right to be asked ifsomeone wants to twist their ears •Children have a right to guess how things work•Children have a right to be in love and love each other•Children have a right to eat grapes whichever way they choose, like peeling them first, if they want •Children have a right to make ideas with other people •Children have a right to be safe from fires and have firefighters ready tohelp them if there is a fire •Children have a right to fall down when they feel like being crazy •Children have a right to sleep when they are tired, or not to sleep when they are not tired, like just resting •Children have a right to have their hair look like they want, but not a rightto cut it unless they ask first •Children have a right to choose theirown clothes (and parents have aright to buy clothes for children if they want, but parents do not have a right to steal clothes) •Children have a right to never, never go to jail•Children have a right to pretend being dead and think about what it means to be dead •Children have a right to eat some cheese or an apple when they are hungry •Children have a right to good stuff thatmakes them happy •Children have a right to clean air •Children have a right to clean, fresh food to eat and if the food is dirty,they can say, 'NO!' •Children have a right to clean, cold water or clean, hot water or clean, warm water •Children have a right to chew soft gum, especially if it's the kind that cleans your teeth, but not a right to hard gum, like one might find at Copper Mountain's gumball machine •Children have a right to talk, as long as they do not interrupt someone else who is talking first, but children have a right to wait for their turn to talk

      I love each and every one of these! I believe that many adults in our culture don't take the time to listen to the ideas of children. Each of these statements gives such an insight into the minds of the children!

  36. Aug 2019
  37. Jul 2019
    1.   BRUTUS. No, not an oath. If not the face of men,    The sufferance of our souls, the time’s abuse-    If these be motives weak, break off betimes,    And every man hence to his idle bed;    So let high-sighted tyranny range on    Till each man drop by lottery. But if these,    As I am sure they do, bear fire enough    To kindle cowards and to steel with valor    The melting spirits of women, then, countrymen,    What need we any spur but our own cause    To prick us to redress? What other bond    Than secret Romans that have spoke the word    And will not palter? And what other oath    Than honesty to honesty engaged    That this shall be or we will fall for it?    Swear priests and cowards and men cautelous,    Old feeble carrions and such suffering souls    That welcome wrongs; unto bad causes swear    Such creatures as men doubt; but do not stain    The even virtue of our enterprise,    Nor the insuppressive mettle of our spirits,    To think that or our cause or our performance    Did need an oath; when every drop of blood    That every Roman bears, and nobly bears,    Is guilty of a several bastardy    If he do break the smallest particle    Of any promise that hath pass’d from him

      In the production, Ben Whishaw portrays Brutus as arrogant and authoritative; the soliloquy starts due to Brutus ruthlessly overruling Cassius' suggestion to 'swear our resolution'. During his soliloquy, Whishaw stands in the middle of the stage while the other conspirators sit and listen to him speak, alluding to his status as the leader. Whishaw delivers his lines with both emphasis and authority, and his reasoning is accepted without question by the other conspirators.

  38. Apr 2019
    1. I'd have thought that that is exactly the sort of thing for which discovery is needed.

      And he would be right. Legal process actually makes a great deal of sense, usually. That's "common law." Discovery is mandated by court rules, largely intended to facilitate the "discovery" of evidence by an orderly process, to reduce surprise at trial, to make the whole affair more reliable as to genuine fact-finding.

      It is actually possible, in California, to file interrogatories prior to filing a lawsuit, at least that was the rule when I was in California. In a case where I was not personally involved, but was assisting a close friend (ah, give me a moment to remember how drop-dead beautiful she was!), I wrote interrogatories that were then served on the plaintiff. When the plaintiff saw them, they suddenly became amenable to settlement, and the case quickly settled for far, far less than they had been demanding. (this was a case where the plaintiff was an insurance company under subrogation from a landlord, for a fire accident claim, and the attorneys had a fixed-fee arrangement that did not contemplate extended litigation. It became obvious that this was going to involve much more than they expected.

  39. Mar 2019
    1. Flint or magnesium firestarter

      Try this....

      A great fire starter is commonly found right in you house!

      Flint or magnesium fire starters are the number one choice, but a great option is also dryer lint!

      Yes, dryer lint! If you're feeling crafty, we can make some together!

      Grab a cardboard egg carton or empty toilet paper rolls. Ball up dryer lint, and put the balls of dryer lint in each egg space or roll. Drop some melted candle wax around it to keep the ball of dryer lint and cardboard together... And voila - fire starter!

      The wax also helps slow down the burn when using the fire starter.

      This is also a great way to keep that dryer lint out of your dryer, eliminating an in house fire risk - two birds, one stone!

    1. claimed that “a better, cheaper and more effective service for the commuter” beckoned. Rail fares: unions and Labour condemn 'staggering' increase Read more Fast forward 25 years, and commuters are facing average fare hikes of 3.4% – with season tickets jumping by 3.6%: the biggest increase since 2013. And this, in a county where workers have suffered the longest squeeze in wages in generations. While the cheapest single ticket to the capital will cost a British commuter 50p per mile, German passengers are paying just 19p a mile. According to TUC research, British passengers commuting from Chelmsford to London are shelling out 13% of their salary on travel; a French worker travelling from Étampes to Paris will see only 2% of their wage packet eaten up by the cost. And for so many Britons, their miserable lot is paying extortionate sums for an overcrowded commute, pressed against the bodies of other understandably grumpy passengers. Government plans to consider linking future price hikes to a lower level of inflation is a woefully inadequate response. Other wealthy nations manage to provide decent quality rail travel at an affordable price: but then, rather than flog this critical national service to profiteers, they’ve maintained them under public ownership. The government does allow state ownership of some rail and energy services – but only if they are foreign governments who are not accountable to British citizens. 'Weight is a lifelong struggle': your best comments today Read more The answer is to bring the rail franchises back under public control – as was successfully done with East Coast before it was idiotically sold off – as part of an integrated, modernised system. No more dividends for shareholders: all the money to be reinvested back into this critical service. This disastrous experiment sums up so many of the Tories’ woes. Their fundamentalist pro-market dogma keeps colliding with the lived experience of millions of people: from the terrible cuts to living standards which followed the financial crash, to the failed privatisation of the utilities. The miserable state of our railways is another reminder that the economic system has failed – and must be replaced. • Owen Jones is a Guardian columnist Topics Rail fares First thoughts Transport policy Transport comment Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share via Email Share on LinkedIn Share on Pinterest Share on WhatsApp Share on Messenger Reuse this content Advertisement First thoughts Quick takes on big stories from Comment is free columnists Children are dying on our streets – May’s response is not good enough Gaby Hinsliff Conservative governments fail because they cut and cut, and for a long time we don’t notice. Then we feel the impact, writes Guardian columnist Gaby Hinsliff 3h 3h Children are dying on our streets – May’s response is not good enough May’s Brexit bung to the north is pathetic. It changes nothing Simon Jenkins The £1.6bn the PM has promised to secure Labour support for her deal is no match for years of systematic neglect, says Guardian columnist Simon Jenkins 1d 1d May’s Brexit bung to the north is pathetic. It changes nothing There is no magic ‘stop Brexit’ button for Labour. There never has been Owen Jones There are simply not enough Labour MPs in leave areas who are willing pass the Kyle-Wilson amendment and trigger another referendum, says Guardian columnist Owen Jones 4d 4d There is no magic ‘stop Brexit’ button for Labour. There never has been The fight for EU citizens’ rights could become another Windrush Polly Toynbee The Tory MP Alberto Costa wants to secure post-Brexit rights. But nothing is certain in the face of a hostile Home Office, says Guardian columnist Polly Toynbee 5d 5d The fight for EU citizens’ rights could become another Windrush View all comments > comments (752)Sign in or create your Guardian account to join the discussion. Guardian Pick The taxpayer is already subsidising the rail system to a large degree. Privatisation hasn't got rid of that, which is one reason it's failed. Jump to comment SnowyJohn 2 Jan 2018 196 197 Guardian Pick East Coast wasn't "sold off" and would generate money under any ownership. Ending dividends for shareholders would not necessarily release any of the 3 percent margin as it would also remove incentives to maximize revenue (eg by encouraging off peak usage). This "disastrous experiment" is a victim of its own success, doubling passenger numbers after years of stagnation. British Rail used to solve overcrowding by increasing fares. Just because a p… Jump to comment Mick James 2 Jan 2018 46 47 Guardian Pick In Northern Ireland, the NI Railways network is still publicly owned by Translink. To get A day return from Belfast to Derry at the station it costs £18.50. This is a 2 hour journey and the longest journey possible on the NI rail network. (It’s as little as £12.50 if prebooked online with a railcard) On the other hand An equivalent length 2 hour journey in England going from London to Liverpool today would cost you £85 for just a single ticket. Jump to comment Ernekid 2 Jan 2018 91 92 Guardian Pick For the tories, the free market has become such an ideological nirvana that they keep throwing money at it to make it work. Whatever your politics, that's both amazing and stupid (and, in fairness, many grassroots tories afaict are just as appalled). Jump to comment tomandlu 2 Jan 2018 162 163 Order by oldest newest oldest recommendations Show 25 25 50 100 All Threads collapsed collapsed expanded unthreaded 1 2 3 4 … next Loading comments… Trouble loading? Plataea 2 Jan 2018 12:13 187 188 The Tories buy their cognitive dissonace by the truck load - you can wheel out the evidence till the cows come home - won't make a blind bit of difference - they don't giove a stuff.Tories: shafting british peasants & serfs since the 18th century. Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report fishplate Plataea 2 Jan 2018 13:27 32 33 Serfdom was long gone (in England and Wales at least) by the 18th century. Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report Watered fishplate 2 Jan 2018 13:31 78 79 I disagree.Serfing is still very popular on the south coast. Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report RDUK123 Plataea 2 Jan 2018 13:37 25 26 What evidence has been wheeled out in this article? That its possible for a country to reduce its rail fares by throwing money at the system to subsidise it, like Germany? I travel by rail a lot, my biggest annoyance is the poor mobile signal whilst travelling. Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report Show 6 more replies tomandlu 2 Jan 2018 12:14 Guardian Pick 162 163 For the tories, the free market has become such an ideological nirvana that they keep throwing money at it to make it work. Whatever your politics, that's both amazing and stupid (and, in fairness, many grassroots tories afaict are just as appalled). Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Unpick Report TragicomedyBeholder tomandlu 2 Jan 2018 13:40 32 33 Whatever your politics, that's both amazing and stupid That may be the natural reaction, but it’s the wrong reaction. In actual fact, everything is going exactly according to plan – for the plutonomy that is. For the rest of us, the commuting precariat, it is another case of like it or lump it. Just as worker insecurity helps the economy to grow and satisfies the needs of the 1 percent, so too inefficient and expensive railways. Why should they change a systems that is working perfectly……. for them? Of course, we can expect some lip service, the usual pledges, and perhaps the odd patch-up job or gimmick here and there, but that will be about it. It wouldn’t surprise me if they were now to argue a case for total privatisation of the railways in order to encourage competition and produce competitive prices. That would be the logical conclusion within fundamentalist free-market dogma. Then, whatever the outcome, there would be no one to blame since the free market sets its own rules and prices. End of story. Government absolved of all future responsibility. Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report Simon Cohen tomandlu 2 Jan 2018 13:42 76 77 'and, in fairness, many grassroots tories afaict are just as appalled' Yes but they still keep voting for them which is why we have a rigid 40% support for these incompetents. The problem is, the public have been conned for the last 40 years that 'there's no money' and Britain will go bankrupt and we'll be like Weimar Germany/Zimbabwe/Venezuela (take your pick of the unfounded cliches). When will the British wake up to the fact that we're in the fifth decade of a dreadful experiment involving the financial industry catheterising whole populations levaing people staggering around with massive debt, poor quality jobs and atrocious infrastructure and lack of public services? There is NO shortage of money because the Goverment issues the currency just as it did when we had QE. There is also no chance of inflation from this spending because we are operating well under capacity and have massive levels of uderemployment and ropey jobs combined with private debt of nearly 2 trillion. Get the financialised industry off our backs-they do nothing but 'shuffle wealth' around a limited circuit. Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report Mauvegrail tomandlu 2 Jan 2018 14:04 20 21 The ideological nirvana that you talk about is (excepting the content) identical to the reverence shown by Americans for their constitution and Muslims for the Koran. Nothing is allowed to change because it is the received wisdom from an earlier age. The franchises given to these groups or individuals are virtually the same as the monopolies bestowed by royalty in the past. They are a licence to print money. Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report Show 2 more replies Mongost 2 Jan 2018 12:14 112 113 Fast forward 25 years, and commuters are facing average fare hikes of 3.4% – with season tickets jumping by 3.6% It's the government that sets the annual increase in regulated fares. German passengers are paying just 19p a mile German taxpayers pay EUR 17b a year for Germany's railways. Our taxpayers pay GBP 5b a year. The answer is to bring the rail franchises back under public control How would that make the government change their policy on annual regulated fare increases? It isn't at all clear. Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report Wally Mooney Mongost 2 Jan 2018 13:34 62 63 Our taxpayers pay GBP 5b a year. That’s not really the case though. The government is the origin of it’s own currency and neither taxation nor borrowing are required to finance government spending in sterling. The act of government spending creates the money which is then later partially removed via taxation. So the UK government does not ever have to worry about how to ‘pay for’ things in terms of pounds and pennies. The actual limitation is whether or not the UK has enough real resources (human skills and non-human materials, energy, steel, concrete, water, land, machines etc.) to achieve its policy objectives.http://www.huffingtonpost.com/warren-mosler/taxes-for-revenue-are-obs_b_542134.html Any shortages of funding for public transport, the NHS, social housing etc is purely an ideological choice of those that govern us. Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report matt h Wally Mooney 2 Jan 2018 14:29 52 53 Wally by name - wally by nature. The government can print all the money it wants - as it does so it loses its value. The government can issue bonds this is technically a loan from people who buy the bonds. But alas these need paying back with interest.Then there is good old spending within your means.... Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report Gcorbs Wally Mooney 2 Jan 2018 14:29 This comment was removed by a moderator because it didn't abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted. For more detail see our FAQs. Show 8 more replies Roger ERRINGTON 2 Jan 2018 12:15 132 133 Spot on! Rail privatisation was one step too far even for Thatcher. It was an early example of a weak PM (Major) caving in to the Tory far right. An unmitigated disaster - like the vast majority of private sell-offs. Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report TheGribbler Roger ERRINGTON 2 Jan 2018 13:42 38 39 An unmitigated disaster which a study by Imperial College London estimates has saved 150 lives in improved safety. Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report towel TheGribbler 2 Jan 2018 13:49 64 65 How did privatisation in itself improve safety? Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report TheGribbler towel 2 Jan 2018 13:52 45 46 Investment. It's increased ninefold since privatisation. Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report Show 4 more replies feeling 2 Jan 2018 12:16 70 71 The answer is to bring the rail franchises back under public control No, sack the greedy drivers on their £80,000 salaries and track staff on £800 a day and let the market decide how much staff get paid - Pay them the same as bus drivers - £25,000 a year max. Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report Redblair feeling 2 Jan 2018 13:28 159 160 Yes mate, it's the workers' fault... Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report Norsked feeling 2 Jan 2018 13:29 90 91 Why don't you think anyone should earn more than £25k a year? I assume you believe no-one should earn more than that and aren't just singling out train drivers, because the latter would be ridiculous... Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report excathedra feeling 2 Jan 2018 13:31 89 90 Another example of when you haven't a clue just lie and hope dome of it sticks. Here's a truth for you. Brian Souter, who used a variety of unpleasant tactics to establish his business in the first place, took out £400 million as dividends ensuring that he paid very little tax on a business that he shouldn't own, hasn't built up and makes money on the backs of very poorly paid workers. Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report Show 13 more replies shangani 2 Jan 2018 12:16 38 39 No it doesn't...why should people who never use a train subsidise people who do...I don't expect people who use a train to subsidise me driving a car. Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report Nepthsolem shangani 2 Jan 2018 13:29 136 137 why should people who never use a train subsidise people who do Because that's how infrastructure works in society. I don't expect people who use a train to subsidise me driving a car. Yet that is exactly what happens. The roads you drive on, the lights that light them and the people who repair them are paid for out of general taxation. Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report fishworld shangani 2 Jan 2018 13:29 83 84 But you do expect there to be a non-toll-based road network, right? Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report WelshPaul shangani 2 Jan 2018 13:30 104 105 Why should people who don't have children subsidise those who do? Why do I have to pay council tax to the fire brigade when my home has never burned down? Taxation doesn't work that way. Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report Show 31 more replies Mick James 2 Jan 2018 12:20 Guardian Pick 46 47 East Coast wasn't "sold off" and would generate money under any ownership. Ending dividends for shareholders would not necessarily release any of the 3 percent margin as it would also remove incentives to maximize revenue (eg by encouraging off peak usage). This "disastrous experiment" is a victim of its own success, doubling passenger numbers after years of stagnation. British Rail used to solve overcrowding by increasing fares. Just because a privatised rail system has problems Durant mean they will go away if it is nationalised. Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Unpick Report LeftOrRightSameShite Mick James 2 Jan 2018 14:46 38 39 Ending dividends for shareholders would not necessarily release any of the 3 percent margin as it would also remove incentives to maximize revenue Interesting you write "would not necessarily" release the 3% margin yet are much more certain when you write "it would" remove revenue incentives. Pull your trousers up chap...your ideology is showing. Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report Paul1977 2 Jan 2018 12:25 21 22 The way to properly deal with this is to end the current franchise system that replaces a public monopoly with several private ones. OK is wrong to claim this as an example of the free market gone wrong as there is no free market here. In fact the best way to solve this problem is to create some genuine competition between the TOCs - it is competition that drives down prices and drives up standards, not mere private ownership. The current franchise system should be ripped up and something that creates genuine competition to replace it. Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report Paul1977 Paul1977 2 Jan 2018 12:26 0 1 OK should read OJ (Owen Jones!) Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report SnowyJohn Paul1977 2 Jan 2018 13:29 31 32 I think this was always the fundamental problem with rail privatisation: privatisation only leads to improvements if there is genuine competition, and the franchise system for rail doesn't really produce that. Rather than "privatisation", we should really call it what it is: a modern day form of selling monopolies. Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report treebranches Paul1977 2 Jan 2018 13:33 9 10 The current franchise system should be ripped up and something that creates genuine competition to replace it. How could such a system work? Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report Show 11 more replies andrew ward 2 Jan 2018 12:26 202 203 Owen, you might not fully grasp this, but it's the taxpayer (not that magic money tree again) who ends up paying for those wonderful cheaper rail fares in Germany, France etc etc. So do you actually support cross subsidisation of the commuter rail network by people who may never use it - or perhaps due to geographical location, can never use it? If so I think you should set that case out here rather than come out with meaningless propagandist nonsense about rail fares being a failure of 'pro market dogma'. (I appreciate that such an approach involves some real mental effort rather than a simple 'cut and paste' - not great with a New Year's hangover.. ) You end with that ringing phrase - 'the economic system has failed - and must be replaced'. With what exactly??? If you could offer one example - yes, just one - of a centrally planned socialist economy anywhere in the world that has worked better than our own 'failed' free market system you might be taken a little more seriously. Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report Redblair andrew ward 2 Jan 2018 13:29 68 69 Any of the Scandinavian countries? Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report DiBosco andrew ward 2 Jan 2018 13:32 151 152 That's right, ignore how the shareholders get paid and the rail companies still get subsidies. Tory and rail shareholder are we? Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report SnowyJohn andrew ward 2 Jan 2018 13:33 Guardian Pick 196 197 The taxpayer is already subsidising the rail system to a large degree. Privatisation hasn't got rid of that, which is one reason it's failed. Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Unpick Report Show 18 more replies dunn31 2 Jan 2018 12:27 19 20 According to a comprehensive survey carried out in 2012 our rail services are above the European average for cost efficiency.The cost for train drivers was 40% higher in the UK then the European average.This suggests that the existing system is extremely efficient given that its cost per mile good and it salaries high.If the article by Mr Jones is accurate all that needs to happen is for everyone to pay more tax so that rail fares can have a greater subsidy. I think he forgot to mention that was the case in the examples he was quoting. Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report DiBosco dunn31 2 Jan 2018 13:30 5 6 Source please. Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report RDUK123 dunn31 2 Jan 2018 13:31 21 22 Correct. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_subsidies#Europe According to this, Germany subsidises its rail by 17 Billion Euro, the UK by 4.4 Billion Euro. German passengers are being massively subsided at the expense of people who never use the system. Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report Kingkerouac dunn31 2 Jan 2018 13:31 14 15 How much more was the cost of executives?And how many more of them?Train drivers should be paid decently - they do the work.Executives. Well what do they do to deserve their huge wages? Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report Show 3 more replies PrakashShah 2 Jan 2018 13:25 5 6 Outsource it to Uber. We can all limousine to work like Grayling. Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report fishplate 2 Jan 2018 13:25 5 6 Other wealthy nations manage to provide decent quality rail travel at an affordable price: but then, rather than flog this critical national service to profiteers, they’ve maintained them under public ownership. Are Germany, Denmark, Sweden, the Netherlands, Australia, New Zealand and Canada - to take some examples of places where commuter services are operated by contractors - not "wealthy nations"? Anyway, if the trains get any busier, no-one will use them. Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report Giuseppa_Acciaio fishplate 2 Jan 2018 13:43 8 9 "operated by contractors" doesn't equate to "privatised": in Germany for example the railways are owned by Deutsche Bahn (which has the State as its only shareholder) and operated by Deutsche Bahn and other companies. Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report fishplate Giuseppa_Acciaio 2 Jan 2018 14:03 7 8 You mean like in Great Britain, where the railways are owned by Network Rail (which has the state as its only shareholder) and services are operated various companies? Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report greenwichite 2 Jan 2018 13:25 19 20 Brilliantly written piece from OJ. Not a word wasted. Re-nationalise the railways. It's a winning policy for Labour. They can privatise the motorways to keep the Blairites happy, with French-style tolls. Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report zippymosquito 2 Jan 2018 13:26 4 5 I don't think people would mind quite so much if the trains regularly appeared on time (or ran at all, for that matter) - and you had some chance of getting a seat. Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report Dufftime75 zippymosquito 2 Jan 2018 13:36 3 4 Well this is it isn't it? They've lowered our expectations so much we're grateful for scraps. Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report Ernekid 2 Jan 2018 13:26 Guardian Pick 91 92 In Northern Ireland, the NI Railways network is still publicly owned by Translink. To get A day return from Belfast to Derry at the station it costs £18.50. This is a 2 hour journey and the longest journey possible on the NI rail network. (It’s as little as £12.50 if prebooked online with a railcard) On the other hand An equivalent length 2 hour journey in England going from London to Liverpool today would cost you £85 for just a single ticket. Nationalised railways exist in the UK and they work. Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Unpick Report fishplate Ernekid 2 Jan 2018 13:41 27 28 Belfast Central - Londonderry Waterside 151 km, 2 h 02 min on little diesel trains.London Euston - Liverpool Lime Street 312 km 2 h 12 min on intercity electric trains. If you are willing to travel this evening rather than now, you can do it for £33. The NI network was in such a state a few years ago, and ridership was so low, that there was serious talk of just giving up and abandoning it (although the Republic might have been willing to take over Dublin - Belfast at least). Instead the government agreed to throw buckets full of money at it. Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report FTRH Ernekid 2 Jan 2018 15:12 4 5 Belfast to Londonderry 71 miles if you care to deal in facts! Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report SteveYates Ernekid 2 Jan 2018 15:18 18 19 Strangely, the value of a train journey is in the distance, not the time. If the Belfast - Derry journey took four hours, your analysis would suggest you'd happily pay twice as much for it, despite it being obviously worse. Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report Nepthsolem 2 Jan 2018 13:27 85 86 While the cheapest single ticket to the capital will cost a British commuter 50p per mile, German passengers are paying just 19p a mile The solution is simple then. Pretend to be German when you buy your ticket. Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report Frenske Nepthsolem 2 Jan 2018 14:55 24 25 Gutday, Ich want a ticket von Cambridge to London mit Deutsche discount. Klop. Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report rustyowl 2 Jan 2018 13:27 7 8 No misery related to all the strikes? Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report marziPANIC 2 Jan 2018 13:28 89 90 Those of us old enough to recall British Rail respectfully disagree Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report Trumbledon marziPANIC 2 Jan 2018 13:32 36 37 The thing is that Owen isn't, really. Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report odstjackson marziPANIC 2 Jan 2018 13:32 5 6 As a 30 something, I only know the privatized version, My parents hate both. Some new paradigm altogether is apparently needed. Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report Nepthsolem marziPANIC 2 Jan 2018 13:33 57 58 British Rail meant vast amounts of public money pumped into a system of late, dirty trains. Post-BR, we now have vast amounts of public money pumped into a system of late, dirty trains only with private companies managing to profit from it. Progress! Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report Show 15 more replies jjsalmo 2 Jan 2018 13:28 46 47 Owen appears to have only one solution to all problems, namely 'Nationalisation'.Rather than those that use the service being responsible, he suggests that the general taxpayer, many who do not use the train would subsidise those that do.The other issue he fails to mention, is that the least efficient element and cause of much of the delays etc is already nationalised. Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report ID4469239 jjsalmo 2 Jan 2018 13:44 25 26 Why do we pay the nationalised French companies to run our transport and subsidise French passengers from our fares ? Why should I have to subsidise those people deluded enough to think that Trident provides some sort of defence to me and my family. Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report jjsalmo ID4469239 2 Jan 2018 13:59 8 9 You shouldn't, no argument there, but going back to the days of BR will achieve nothing. There needs to be greater genuine competition coupled with real sanctions for non-delivery. Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report Kingkerouac 2 Jan 2018 13:30 13 14 Everything Thatcher dogmatised, electric, gas, rail travel, football, poll-tax/rates has shot up in price when 'choice' was supposed to reduce prices. What happened? Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report YEverKnot Kingkerouac 2 Jan 2018 13:40 7 8 Thatcher was responsible for football tickets? Well, I never. Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report StephenHawking Kingkerouac 2 Jan 2018 13:44 3 4 Football? Don't disagree its become very expensive, but I am not sure Thatcher can be blamed for that. Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report ChipKennedy Kingkerouac 2 Jan 2018 13:47 4 5 Bait and Switch . Heads you lose Tails they win . Socialism for the 1% Austerity and Rail price increases for the 99% . Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report Show 2 more replies TheSpecialNeedsOne 2 Jan 2018 13:31 4 5 Good to hear you agree with Lord Adonis, Owen. Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report odstjackson 2 Jan 2018 13:31 3 4 Our entire Produce/Consume society we are enslaved to is a problem. Any way of life that puts greed, selfishness and power at the forefront should not exist. Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report rodmclaughlin 2 Jan 2018 13:32 1 2 The railway disaster doesn't prove that privatisation is a bad thing. It only shows that privatisation of the railways - in which companies have an inbuilt monopoly, because you can't have rival companies competing at the same times on the same lines - is a bad thing. Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report Trumbledon 2 Jan 2018 13:32 5 6 John Major claimed that “a better, cheaper and more effective service for the commuter” beckoned. He got two of those right, he was only wrong on cost. Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report YEverKnot Trumbledon 2 Jan 2018 13:40 6 7 You really think fares would go down under nationalisation? Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report Trumbledon YEverKnot 2 Jan 2018 13:46 5 6 No, not necessarily. All I'm saying is that services are now better and more effective than they were under BR. If you want a reminder of what BR was like, take a ride on one of the Class 156's which still operate in Scotland. Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report DiBosco Trumbledon 2 Jan 2018 13:58 18 19 I'm willing to bet in the 70s the rail system, were it privatised, would have been absolutely no better. The world is a very different place now and renationalised railways would be nothing like 70s BR. There is no inherent reason nationalised industry can't be good. Noticed any improvement in gas, electricity and water since they started lining the pockets of the insanely rich? Do other countries' nationalised railways work a treat? Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report HonestJo 2 Jan 2018 13:32 21 22 Whatever our thoughts on privatisation please don't expect hard pressed tax payers outside London to subsidise jobs in London at the expense of their local poor services. If people can't afford to commute to these London jobs then frankly these jobs should move to places where people can afford to live and don't need to commute. Simple really. Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report ID4469239 HonestJo 2 Jan 2018 13:41 5 6 The companies should pay taxes which subsidise public transport. It's not rocket science (which is why this happens in other countries such as France) Reply Share Share on Facebook Facebook Share on Twitter Twitter | Pick Report 1 2 3 4 … next Sorry there was an error. Please try again later. 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      claimed that " a better, cheaper more effective service for the commuter", what is the ideology in there?

  40. Feb 2019
    1. “Small towns like ours are losing our young adult populations,”

      In a small town it is harder to find younger hard working individuals. This is why the numbers are continuing to drop. The volunteers that are part of the fire companies already are becoming to old to do all the required work.

  41. Dec 2018
    1. I chose this article to provide an example of both excessive force by an officer and why a citizen may be scared of police. In this incident officers responded to a call that a woman was acting crazy with a kitchen knife. When the officers arrived they saw Sharon Chadwick outside and then her roommate Amy Hughes came outside holding a kitchen knife. The cops told her to drop it, and not knowing if she heard them or not began to fire. The woman survived and later sued the officer for excessive force. She wasn’t posing a threat to anyone even though it did look like it when she walked out with a kitchen knife. This was just bad judgment in my opinion, the officers saw a weapon and just shot thinking she was going to harm someone. Mistakes happen, but when a cop makes a mistake it can be fatal and luckily this time it wasn’t. The officer ultimately got away with it because of laws protecting him. This shows citizens that an officer can shoot first, and then think if it was right or not later. Also, this puts the picture in their mind that no matter what an officer does he can get away with it. Like the article says, this teaches people that an officer can shoot you, even if you’re doing nothing wrong, and get away with it.

      not sure what I'm reading: is this the news article? It doesn't seem to read like one. I'm confused.

  42. May 2018
    1. Our men shot at the copter and that started a firefight which lasted almost two hours. Frank Clearwater had ar-rived the day before with his pregnant wife Morning Star. She was Apache and he was Cherokee. He was resting on a bed inside the church when a bullet crashed through the wall and smashed into his head. When it became known that one of our brothers had been badly hurt we used the two-way radio to ask the marshals for a cease-fire. They promised to hold their fire and two of our men and some nurses went up the hill to get him. They were waving a white flag. T~e nurses wore arm bands and had a red cross painted on thelf helmets, but they were immediately shot at by the marshals

      Her account of what happened is such tragedy. I cannot fathom a word that is appropriate in this drop of my stomach in reading what these people went through. Casualties isn't a clear enough description. There is no humanity to a loss that great. From false pretenses no less.

  43. Feb 2018
    1. I put it in the coffin.  It was in there when you was crying there, away in the night.  I was behind the door, and I was mighty sorry for you, Miss Mary Jane.” It made my eyes water a little to remember her crying there all by herself in the night, and them devils laying there right under her own roof, shaming her and robbing her; and when I folded it up and give it to her I see the water come into her eyes, too; and she shook me by the hand, hard, and says: “Good-bye.  I'm going to do everything just as you've told me; and if I don't ever see you again, I sha'n't ever forget you and I'll think of you a many and a many a time, and I'll pray for you, too!”—and she was gone. Pray for me!  I reckoned if she knowed me she'd take a job that was more nearer her size.  But I bet she done it, just the same—she was just that kind.  She had the grit to pray for Judus if she took the notion—there warn't no back-down to her, I judge.  You may say what you want to, but in my opinion she had more sand in her than any girl I ever see; in my opinion she was just full of sand.  It sounds like flattery, but it ain't no flattery.  And when it comes to beauty—and goodness, too—she lays over them all.  I hain't ever seen her since that time that I see her go out of that door; no, I hain't ever seen her since, but I reckon I've thought of her a many and a many a million times, and of her saying she would pray for me; and if ever I'd a thought it would do any good for me to pray for her, blamed if I wouldn't a done it or bust. Well, Mary Jane she lit out the back way, I reckon; because nobody see her go.  When I struck Susan and the hare-lip, I says: “What's the name of them people over on t'other side of the river that you all goes to see sometimes?” They says: “There's several; but it's the Proctors, mainly.” “That's the name,” I says; “I most forgot it.  Well, Miss Mary Jane she told me to tell you she's gone over there in a dreadful hurry—one of them's sick.” “Which one?” “I don't know; leastways, I kinder forget; but I thinks it's—” “Sakes alive, I hope it ain't Hanner?” “I'm sorry to say it,” I says, “but Hanner's the very one.” “My goodness, and she so well only last week!  Is she took bad?” “It ain't no name for it.  They set up with her all night, Miss Mary Jane said, and they don't think she'll last many hours.” “Only think of that, now!  What's the matter with her?” I couldn't think of anything reasonable, right off that way, so I says: “Mumps.” “Mumps your granny!  They don't set up with people that's got the mumps.” “They don't, don't they?  You better bet they do with these mumps.  These mumps is different.  It's a new kind, Miss Mary Jane said.” “How's it a new kind?” “Because it's mixed up with other things.” “What other things?” “Well, measles, and whooping-cough, and erysiplas, and consumption, and yaller janders, and brain-fever, and I don't know what all.” “My land!  And they call it the mumps?” “That's what Miss Mary Jane said.” “Well, what in the nation do they call it the mumps for?” “Why, because it is the mumps.  That's what it starts with.” “Well, ther' ain't no sense in it.  A body might stump his toe, and take pison, and fall down the well, and break his neck, and bust his brains out, and somebody come along and ask what killed him, and some numskull up and say, 'Why, he stumped his toe.'  Would ther' be any sense in that? No.  And ther' ain't no sense in this, nuther.  Is it ketching?” “Is it ketching?  Why, how you talk.  Is a harrow catching—in the dark? If you don't hitch on to one tooth, you're bound to on another, ain't you? And you can't get away with that tooth without fetching the whole harrow along, can you?  Well, these kind of mumps is a kind of a harrow, as you may say—and it ain't no slouch of a harrow, nuther, you come to get it hitched on good.” “Well, it's awful, I think,” says the hare-lip.  "I'll go to Uncle Harvey and—” “Oh, yes,” I says, “I would.  Of course I would.  I wouldn't lose no time.” “Well, why wouldn't you?” “Just look at it a minute, and maybe you can see.  Hain't your uncles obleegd to get along home to England as fast as they can?  And do you reckon they'd be mean enough to go off and leave you to go all that journey by yourselves?  you know they'll wait for you.  So fur, so good. Your uncle Harvey's a preacher, ain't he?  Very well, then; is a preacher going to deceive a steamboat clerk? is he going to deceive a ship clerk?—so as to get them to let Miss Mary Jane go aboard?  Now you know he ain't.  What will he do, then?  Why, he'll say, 'It's a great pity, but my church matters has got to get along the best way they can; for my niece has been exposed to the dreadful pluribus-unum mumps, and so it's my bounden duty to set down here and wait the three months it takes to show on her if she's got it.'  But never mind, if you think it's best to tell your uncle Harvey—” “Shucks, and stay fooling around here when we could all be having good times in England whilst we was waiting to find out whether Mary Jane's got it or not?  Why, you talk like a muggins.” “Well, anyway, maybe you'd better tell some of the neighbors.” “Listen at that, now.  You do beat all for natural stupidness.  Can't you see that they'd go and tell?  Ther' ain't no way but just to not tell anybody at all.” “Well, maybe you're right—yes, I judge you are right.” “But I reckon we ought to tell Uncle Harvey she's gone out a while, anyway, so he won't be uneasy about her?” “Yes, Miss Mary Jane she wanted you to do that.  She says, 'Tell them to give Uncle Harvey and William my love and a kiss, and say I've run over the river to see Mr.'—Mr.—what is the name of that rich family your uncle Peter used to think so much of?—I mean the one that—” “Why, you must mean the Apthorps, ain't it?” “Of course; bother them kind of names, a body can't ever seem to remember them, half the time, somehow.  Yes, she said, say she has run over for to ask the Apthorps to be sure and come to the auction and buy this house, because she allowed her uncle Peter would ruther they had it than anybody else; and she's going to stick to them till they say they'll come, and then, if she ain't too tired, she's coming home; and if she is, she'll be home in the morning anyway.  She said, don't say nothing about the Proctors, but only about the Apthorps—which 'll be perfectly true, because she is going there to speak about their buying the house; I know it, because she told me so herself.” “All right,” they said, and cleared out to lay for their uncles, and give them the love and the kisses, and tell them the message. Everything was all right now.  The girls wouldn't say nothing because they wanted to go to England; and the king and the duke would ruther Mary Jane was off working for the auction than around in reach of Doctor Robinson.  I felt very good; I judged I had done it pretty neat—I reckoned Tom Sawyer couldn't a done it no neater himself.  Of course he would a throwed more style into it, but I can't do that very handy, not being brung up to it. Well, they held the auction in the public square, along towards the end of the afternoon, and it strung along, and strung along, and the old man he was on hand and looking his level pisonest, up there longside of the auctioneer, and chipping in a little Scripture now and then, or a little goody-goody saying of some kind, and the duke he was around goo-gooing for sympathy all he knowed how, and just spreading himself generly. But by and by the thing dragged through, and everything was sold—everything but a little old trifling lot in the graveyard.  So they'd got to work that off—I never see such a girafft as the king was for wanting to swallow everything.  Well, whilst they was at it a steamboat landed, and in about two minutes up comes a crowd a-whooping and yelling and laughing and carrying on, and singing out: “Here's your opposition line! here's your two sets o' heirs to old Peter Wilks—and you pays your money and you takes your choice!” CHAPTER XXIX. THEY was fetching a very nice-looking old gentleman along, and a nice-looking younger one, with his right arm in a sling.  And, my souls, how the people yelled and laughed, and kept it up.  But I didn't see no joke about it, and I judged it would strain the duke and the king some to see any.  I reckoned they'd turn pale.  But no, nary a pale did they turn. The duke he never let on he suspicioned what was up, but just went a goo-gooing around, happy and satisfied, like a jug that's googling out buttermilk; and as for the king, he just gazed and gazed down sorrowful on them new-comers like it give him the stomach-ache in his very heart to think there could be such frauds and rascals in the world.  Oh, he done it admirable.  Lots of the principal people gethered around the king, to let him see they was on his side.  That old gentleman that had just come looked all puzzled to death.  Pretty soon he begun to speak, and I see straight off he pronounced like an Englishman—not the king's way, though the king's was pretty good for an imitation.  I can't give the old gent's words, nor I can't imitate him; but he turned around to the crowd, and says, about like this: “This is a surprise to me which I wasn't looking for; and I'll acknowledge, candid and frank, I ain't very well fixed to meet it and answer it; for my brother and me has had misfortunes; he's broke his arm, and our baggage got put off at a town above here last night in the night by a mistake.  I am Peter Wilks' brother Harvey, and this is his brother William, which can't hear nor speak—and can't even make signs to amount to much, now't he's only got one hand to work them with.  We are who we say we are; and in a day or two, when I get the baggage, I can prove it. But up till then I won't say nothing more, but go to the hotel and wait.” So him and the new dummy started off; and the king he laughs, and blethers out: “Broke his arm—very likely, ain't it?—and very convenient, too, for a fraud that's got to make signs, and ain't learnt how.  Lost their baggage! That's mighty good!—and mighty ingenious—under the circumstances!” So he laughed again; and so did everybody else, except three or four, or maybe half a dozen.  One of these was that doctor; another one was a sharp-looking gentleman, with a carpet-bag of the old-fashioned kind made out of carpet-stuff, that had just come off of the steamboat and was talking to him in a low voice, and glancing towards the king now and then and nodding their heads—it was Levi Bell, the lawyer that was gone up to Louisville; and another one was a big rough husky that come along and listened to all the old gentleman said, and was listening to the king now. And when the king got done this husky up and says: “Say, looky here; if you are Harvey Wilks, when'd you come to this town?” “The day before the funeral, friend,” says the king. “But what time o' day?” “In the evenin'—'bout an hour er two before sundown.” “How'd you come?” “I come down on the Susan Powell from Cincinnati.” “Well, then, how'd you come to be up at the Pint in the mornin'—in a canoe?” “I warn't up at the Pint in the mornin'.” “It's a lie.” Several of them jumped for him and begged him not to talk that way to an old man and a preacher. “Preacher be hanged, he's a fraud and a liar.  He was up at the Pint that mornin'.  I live up there, don't I?  Well, I was up there, and he was up there.  I see him there.  He come in a canoe, along with Tim Collins and a boy.” The doctor he up and says: “Would you know the boy again if you was to see him, Hines?” “I reckon I would, but I don't know.  Why, yonder he is, now.  I know him perfectly easy.” It was me he pointed at.  The doctor says: “Neighbors, I don't know whether the new couple is frauds or not; but if these two ain't frauds, I am an idiot, that's all.  I think it's our duty to see that they don't get away from here till we've looked into this thing. Come along, Hines; come along, the rest of you.  We'll take these fellows to the tavern and affront them with t'other couple, and I reckon we'll find out something before we get through.” It was nuts for the crowd, though maybe not for the king's friends; so we all started.  It was about sundown.  The doctor he led me along by the hand, and was plenty kind enough, but he never let go my hand. We all got in a big room in the hotel, and lit up some candles, and fetched in the new couple.  First, the doctor says: “I don't wish to be too hard on these two men, but I think they're frauds, and they may have complices that we don't know nothing about.  If they have, won't the complices get away with that bag of gold Peter Wilks left?  It ain't unlikely.  If these men ain't frauds, they won't object to sending for that money and letting us keep it till they prove they're all right—ain't that so?” Everybody agreed to that.  So I judged they had our gang in a pretty tight place right at the outstart.  But the king he only looked sorrowful, and says: “Gentlemen, I wish the money was there, for I ain't got no disposition to throw anything in the way of a fair, open, out-and-out investigation o' this misable business; but, alas, the money ain't there; you k'n send and see, if you want to.” “Where is it, then?” “Well, when my niece give it to me to keep for her I took and hid it inside o' the straw tick o' my bed, not wishin' to bank it for the few days we'd be here, and considerin' the bed a safe place, we not bein' used to niggers, and suppos'n' 'em honest, like servants in England.  The niggers stole it the very next mornin' after I had went down stairs; and when I sold 'em I hadn't missed the money yit, so they got clean away with it.  My servant here k'n tell you 'bout it, gentlemen.” The doctor and several said “Shucks!” and I see nobody didn't altogether believe him.  One man asked me if I see the niggers steal it.  I said no, but I see them sneaking out of the room and hustling away, and I never thought nothing, only I reckoned they was afraid they had waked up my master and was trying to get away before he made trouble with them.  That was all they asked me.  Then the doctor whirls on me and says: “Are you English, too?” I says yes; and him and some others laughed, and said, “Stuff!” Well, then they sailed in on the general investigation, and there we had it, up and down, hour in, hour out, and nobody never said a word about supper, nor ever seemed to think about it—and so they kept it up, and kept it up; and it was the worst mixed-up thing you ever see.  They made the king tell his yarn, and they made the old gentleman tell his'n; and anybody but a lot of prejudiced chuckleheads would a seen that the old gentleman was spinning truth and t'other one lies.  And by and by they had me up to tell what I knowed.  The king he give me a left-handed look out of the corner of his eye, and so I knowed enough to talk on the right side.  I begun to tell about Sheffield, and how we lived there, and all about the English Wilkses, and so on; but I didn't get pretty fur till the doctor begun to laugh; and Levi Bell, the lawyer, says: “Set down, my boy; I wouldn't strain myself if I was you.  I reckon you ain't used to lying, it don't seem to come handy; what you want is practice.  You do it pretty awkward.” I didn't care nothing for the compliment, but I was glad to be let off, anyway. The doctor he started to say something, and turns and says: “If you'd been in town at first, Levi Bell—” The king broke in and reached out his hand, and says: “Why, is this my poor dead brother's old friend that he's wrote so often about?” The lawyer and him shook hands, and the lawyer smiled and looked pleased, and they talked right along awhile, and then got to one side and talked low; and at last the lawyer speaks up and says: “That 'll fix it.  I'll take the order and send it, along with your brother's, and then they'll know it's all right.” So they got some paper and a pen, and the king he set down and twisted his head to one side, and chawed his tongue, and scrawled off something; and then they give the pen to the duke—and then for the first time the duke looked sick.  But he took the pen and wrote.  So then the lawyer turns to the new old gentleman and says: “You and your brother please write a line or two and sign your names.” The old gentleman wrote, but nobody couldn't read it.  The lawyer looked powerful astonished, and says: “Well, it beats me”—and snaked a lot of old letters out of his pocket, and examined them, and then examined the old man's writing, and then them again; and then says:  "These old letters is from Harvey Wilks; and here's these two handwritings, and anybody can see they didn't write them” (the king and the duke looked sold and foolish, I tell you, to see how the lawyer had took them in), “and here's this old gentleman's hand writing, and anybody can tell, easy enough, he didn't write them—fact is, the scratches he makes ain't properly writing at all.  Now, here's some letters from—” The new old gentleman says: “If you please, let me explain.  Nobody can read my hand but my brother there—so he copies for me.  It's his hand you've got there, not mine.” “Well!” says the lawyer, “this is a state of things.  I've got some of William's letters, too; so if you'll get him to write a line or so we can com—” “He can't write with his left hand,” says the old gentleman.  "If he could use his right hand, you would see that he wrote his own letters and mine too.  Look at both, please—they're by the same hand.” The lawyer done it, and says: “I believe it's so—and if it ain't so, there's a heap stronger resemblance than I'd noticed before, anyway.  Well, well, well!  I thought we was right on the track of a solution, but it's gone to grass, partly.  But anyway, one thing is proved—these two ain't either of 'em Wilkses”—and he wagged his head towards the king and the duke. Well, what do you think?  That muleheaded old fool wouldn't give in then! Indeed he wouldn't.  Said it warn't no fair test.  Said his brother William was the cussedest joker in the world, and hadn't tried to write—he see William was going to play one of his jokes the minute he put the pen to paper.  And so he warmed up and went warbling and warbling right along till he was actuly beginning to believe what he was saying himself; but pretty soon the new gentleman broke in, and says: “I've thought of something.  Is there anybody here that helped to lay out my br—helped to lay out the late Peter Wilks for burying?” “Yes,” says somebody, “me and Ab Turner done it.  We're both here.” Then the old man turns towards the king, and says: “Perhaps this gentleman can tell me what was tattooed on his breast?” Blamed if the king didn't have to brace up mighty quick, or he'd a squshed down like a bluff bank that the river has cut under, it took him so sudden; and, mind you, it was a thing that was calculated to make most anybody sqush to get fetched such a solid one as that without any notice, because how was he going to know what was tattooed on the man?  He whitened a little; he couldn't help it; and it was mighty still in there, and everybody bending a little forwards and gazing at him.  Says I to myself, now he'll throw up the sponge—there ain't no more use.  Well, did he?  A body can't hardly believe it, but he didn't.  I reckon he thought he'd keep the thing up till he tired them people out, so they'd thin out, and him and the duke could break loose and get away.  Anyway, he set there, and pretty soon he begun to smile, and says: “Mf!  It's a very tough question, ain't it!  yes, sir, I k'n tell you what's tattooed on his breast.  It's jest a small, thin, blue arrow—that's what it is; and if you don't look clost, you can't see it.  now what do you say—hey?” Well, I never see anything like that old blister for clean out-and-out cheek. The new old gentleman turns brisk towards Ab Turner and his pard, and his eye lights up like he judged he'd got the king this time, and says: “There—you've heard what he said!  Was there any such mark on Peter Wilks' breast?” Both of them spoke up and says: “We didn't see no such mark.” “Good!” says the old gentleman.  "Now, what you did see on his breast was a small dim P, and a B (which is an initial he dropped when he was young), and a W, with dashes between them, so:  P—B—W”—and he marked them that way on a piece of paper.  "Come, ain't that what you saw?” Both of them spoke up again, and says: “No, we didn't.  We never seen any marks at all.” Well, everybody was in a state of mind now, and they sings out: “The whole bilin' of 'm 's frauds!  Le's duck 'em! le's drown 'em! le's ride 'em on a rail!” and everybody was whooping at once, and there was a rattling powwow.  But the lawyer he jumps on the table and yells, and says: “Gentlemen—gentlemen!  Hear me just a word—just a single word—if you please!  There's one way yet—let's go and dig up the corpse and look.” That took them. “Hooray!” they all shouted, and was starting right off; but the lawyer and the doctor sung out: “Hold on, hold on!  Collar all these four men and the boy, and fetch them along, too!” “We'll do it!” they all shouted; “and if we don't find them marks we'll lynch the whole gang!” I was scared, now, I tell you.  But there warn't no getting away, you know. They gripped us all, and marched us right along, straight for the graveyard, which was a mile and a half down the river, and the whole town at our heels, for we made noise enough, and it was only nine in the evening. As we went by our house I wished I hadn't sent Mary Jane out of town; because now if I could tip her the wink she'd light out and save me, and blow on our dead-beats. Well, we swarmed along down the river road, just carrying on like wildcats; and to make it more scary the sky was darking up, and the lightning beginning to wink and flitter, and the wind to shiver amongst the leaves. This was the most awful trouble and most dangersome I ever was in; and I was kinder stunned; everything was going so different from what I had allowed for; stead of being fixed so I could take my own time if I wanted to, and see all the fun, and have Mary Jane at my back to save me and set me free when the close-fit come, here was nothing in the world betwixt me and sudden death but just them tattoo-marks.  If they didn't find them— I couldn't bear to think about it; and yet, somehow, I couldn't think about nothing else.  It got darker and darker, and it was a beautiful time to give the crowd the slip; but that big husky had me by the wrist—Hines—and a body might as well try to give Goliar the slip.  He dragged me right along, he was so excited, and I had to run to keep up. When they got there they swarmed into the graveyard and washed over it like an overflow.  And when they got to the grave they found they had about a hundred times as many shovels as they wanted, but nobody hadn't thought to fetch a lantern.  But they sailed into digging anyway by the flicker of the lightning, and sent a man to the nearest house, a half a mile off, to borrow one. So they dug and dug like everything; and it got awful dark, and the rain started, and the wind swished and swushed along, and the lightning come brisker and brisker, and the thunder boomed; but them people never took no notice of it, they was so full of this business; and one minute you could see everything and every face in that big crowd, and the shovelfuls of dirt sailing up out of the grave, and the next second the dark wiped it all out, and you couldn't see nothing at all. At last they got out the coffin and begun to unscrew the lid, and then such another crowding and shouldering and shoving as there was, to scrouge in and get a sight, you never see; and in the dark, that way, it was awful.  Hines he hurt my wrist dreadful pulling and tugging so, and I reckon he clean forgot I was in the world, he was so excited and panting. All of a sudden the lightning let go a perfect sluice of white glare, and somebody sings out: “By the living jingo, here's the bag of gold on his breast!” Hines let out a whoop, like everybody else, and dropped my wrist and give a big surge to bust his way in and get a look, and the way I lit out and shinned for the road in the dark there ain't nobody can tell. I had the road all to myself, and I fairly flew—leastways, I had it all to myself except the solid dark, and the now-and-then glares, and the buzzing of the rain, and the thrashing of the wind, and the splitting of the thunder; and sure as you are born I did clip it along! When I struck the town I see there warn't nobody out in the storm, so I never hunted for no back streets, but humped it straight through the main one; and when I begun to get towards our house I aimed my eye and set it. No light there; the house all dark—which made me feel sorry and disappointed, I didn't know why.  But at last, just as I was sailing by, flash comes the light in Mary Jane's window! and my heart swelled up sudden, like to bust; and the same second the house and all was behind me in the dark, and wasn't ever going to be before me no more in this world. She was the best girl I ever see, and had the most sand. The minute I was far enough above the town to see I could make the towhead, I begun to look sharp for a boat to borrow, and the first time the lightning showed me one that wasn't chained I snatched it and shoved. It was a canoe, and warn't fastened with nothing but a rope.  The towhead was a rattling big distance off, away out there in the middle of the river, but I didn't lose no time; and when I struck the raft at last I was so fagged I would a just laid down to blow and gasp if I could afforded it.  But I didn't.  As I sprung aboard I sung out: “Out with you, Jim, and set her loose!  Glory be to goodness, we're shut of them!” Jim lit out, and was a-coming for me with both arms spread, he was so full of joy; but when I glimpsed him in the lightning my heart shot up in my mouth and I went overboard backwards; for I forgot he was old King Lear and a drownded A-rab all in one, and it most scared the livers and lights out of me.  But Jim fished me out, and was going to hug me and bless me, and so on, he was so glad I was back and we was shut of the king and the duke, but I says: “Not now; have it for breakfast, have it for breakfast!  Cut loose and let her slide!” So in two seconds away we went a-sliding down the river, and it did seem so good to be free again and all by ourselves on the big river, and nobody to bother us.  I had to skip around a bit, and jump up and crack my heels a few times—I couldn't help it; but about the third crack I noticed a sound that I knowed mighty well, and held my breath and listened and waited; and sure enough, when the next flash busted out over the water, here they come!—and just a-laying to their oars and making their skiff hum!  It was the king and the duke. So I wilted right down on to the planks then, and give up; and it was all I could do to keep from crying. CHAPTER XXX. WHEN they got aboard the king went for me, and shook me by the collar, and says: “Tryin' to give us the slip, was ye, you pup!  Tired of our company, hey?” I says: “No, your majesty, we warn't—please don't, your majesty!” “Quick, then, and tell us what was your idea, or I'll shake the insides out o' you!” “Honest, I'll tell you everything just as it happened, your majesty.  The man that had a-holt of me was very good to me, and kept saying he had a boy about as big as me that died last year, and he was sorry to see a boy in such a dangerous fix; and when they was all took by surprise by finding the gold, and made a rush for the coffin, he lets go of me and whispers, 'Heel it now, or they'll hang ye, sure!' and I lit out.  It didn't seem no good for me to stay—I couldn't do nothing, and I didn't want to be hung if I could get away.  So I never stopped running till I found the canoe; and when I got here I told Jim to hurry, or they'd catch me and hang me yet, and said I was afeard you and the duke wasn't alive now, and I was awful sorry, and so was Jim, and was awful glad when we see you coming; you may ask Jim if I didn't.” Jim said it was so; and the king told him to shut up, and said, “Oh, yes, it's mighty likely!” and shook me up again, and said he reckoned he'd drownd me.  But the duke says: “Leggo the boy, you old idiot!  Would you a done any different?  Did you inquire around for him when you got loose?  I don't remember it.” So the king let go of me, and begun to cuss that town and everybody in it. But the duke says: “You better a blame' sight give yourself a good cussing, for you're the one that's entitled to it most.  You hain't done a thing from the start that had any sense in it, except coming out so cool and cheeky with that imaginary blue-arrow mark.  That was bright—it was right down bully; and it was the thing that saved us.  For if it hadn't been for that they'd a jailed us till them Englishmen's baggage come—and then—the penitentiary, you bet! But that trick took 'em to the graveyard, and the gold done us a still bigger kindness; for if the excited fools hadn't let go all holts and made that rush to get a look we'd a slept in our cravats to-night—cravats warranted to wear, too—longer than we'd need 'em.” They was still a minute—thinking; then the king says, kind of absent-minded like: “Mf!  And we reckoned the niggers stole it!” That made me squirm! “Yes,” says the duke, kinder slow and deliberate and sarcastic, “we did.” After about a half a minute the king drawls out: “Leastways, I did.” The duke says, the same way: “On the contrary, I did.” The king kind of ruffles up, and says: “Looky here, Bilgewater, what'r you referrin' to?” The duke says, pretty brisk: “When it comes to that, maybe you'll let me ask, what was you referring to?” “Shucks!” says the king, very sarcastic; “but I don't know—maybe you was asleep, and didn't know what you was about.” The duke bristles up now, and says: “Oh, let up on this cussed nonsense; do you take me for a blame' fool? Don't you reckon I know who hid that money in that coffin?” “Yes, sir!  I know you do know, because you done it yourself!” “It's a lie!”—and the duke went for him.  The king sings out: “Take y'r hands off!—leggo my throat!—I take it all back!” The duke says: “Well, you just own up, first, that you did hide that money there, intending to give me the slip one of these days, and come back and dig it up, and have it all to yourself.” “Wait jest a minute, duke—answer me this one question, honest and fair; if you didn't put the money there, say it, and I'll b'lieve you, and take back everything I said.” “You old scoundrel, I didn't, and you know I didn't.  There, now!” “Well, then, I b'lieve you.  But answer me only jest this one more—now don't git mad; didn't you have it in your mind to hook the money and hide it?” The duke never said nothing for a little bit; then he says: “Well, I don't care if I did, I didn't do it, anyway.  But you not only had it in mind to do it, but you done it.” “I wisht I never die if I done it, duke, and that's honest.  I won't say I warn't goin' to do it, because I was; but you—I mean somebody—got in ahead o' me.” “It's a lie!  You done it, and you got to say you done it, or—” The king began to gurgle, and then he gasps out: “'Nough!—I own up!” I was very glad to hear him say that; it made me feel much more easier than what I was feeling before.  So the duke took his hands off and says: “If you ever deny it again I'll drown you.  It's well for you to set there and blubber like a baby—it's fitten for you, after the way you've acted. I never see such an old ostrich for wanting to gobble everything—and I a-trusting you all the time, like you was my own father.  You ought to been ashamed of yourself to stand by and hear it saddled on to a lot of poor niggers, and you never say a word for 'em.  It makes me feel ridiculous to think I was soft enough to believe that rubbage.  Cuss you, I can see now why you was so anxious to make up the deffisit—you wanted to get what money I'd got out of the Nonesuch and one thing or another, and scoop it all!” The king says, timid, and still a-snuffling: “Why, duke, it was you that said make up the deffisit; it warn't me.” “Dry up!  I don't want to hear no more out of you!” says the duke.  "And now you see what you GOT by it.  They've got all their own money back, and all of ourn but a shekel or two besides.  G'long to bed, and don't you deffersit me no more deffersits, long 's you live!” So the king sneaked into the wigwam and took to his bottle for comfort, and before long the duke tackled HIS bottle; and so in about a half an hour they was as thick as thieves again, and the tighter they got the lovinger they got, and went off a-snoring in each other's arms.  They both got powerful mellow, but I noticed the king didn't get mellow enough to forget to remember to not deny about hiding the money-bag again.  That made me feel easy and satisfied.  Of course when they got to snoring we had a long gabble, and I told Jim everything. CHAPTER XXXI. WE dasn't stop again at any town for days and days; kept right along down the river.  We was down south in the warm weather now, and a mighty long ways from home.  We begun to come to trees with Spanish moss on them, hanging down from the limbs like long, gray beards.  It was the first I ever see it growing, and it made the woods look solemn and dismal.  So now the frauds reckoned they was out of danger, and they begun to work the villages again. First they done a lecture on temperance; but they didn't make enough for them both to get drunk on.  Then in another village they started a dancing-school; but they didn't know no more how to dance than a kangaroo does; so the first prance they made the general public jumped in and pranced them out of town.  Another time they tried to go at yellocution; but they didn't yellocute long till the audience got up and give them a solid good cussing, and made them skip out.  They tackled missionarying, and mesmerizing, and doctoring, and telling fortunes, and a little of everything; but they couldn't seem to have no luck.  So at last they got just about dead broke, and laid around the raft as she floated along, thinking and thinking, and never saying nothing, by the half a day at a time, and dreadful blue and desperate. And at last they took a change and begun to lay their heads together in the wigwam and talk low and confidential two or three hours at a time. Jim and me got uneasy.  We didn't like the look of it.  We judged they was studying up some kind of worse deviltry than ever.  We turned it over and over, and at last we made up our minds they was going to break into somebody's house or store, or was going into the counterfeit-money business, or something. So then we was pretty scared, and made up an agreement that we wouldn't have nothing in the world to do with such actions, and if we ever got the least show we would give them the cold shake and clear out and leave them behind. Well, early one morning we hid the raft in a good, safe place about two mile below a little bit of a shabby village named Pikesville, and the king he went ashore and told us all to stay hid whilst he went up to town and smelt around to see if anybody had got any wind of the Royal Nonesuch there yet. (“House to rob, you mean,” says I to myself; “and when you get through robbing it you'll come back here and wonder what has become of me and Jim and the raft—and you'll have to take it out in wondering.”) And he said if he warn't back by midday the duke and me would know it was all right, and we was to come along. So we stayed where we was.  The duke he fretted and sweated around, and was in a mighty sour way.  He scolded us for everything, and we couldn't seem to do nothing right; he found fault with every little thing. Something was a-brewing, sure.  I was good and glad when midday come and no king; we could have a change, anyway—and maybe a chance for the change on top of it.  So me and the duke went up to the village, and hunted around there for the king, and by and by we found him in the back room of a little low doggery, very tight, and a lot of loafers bullyragging him for sport, and he a-cussing and a-threatening with all his might, and so tight he couldn't walk, and couldn't do nothing to them.  The duke he begun to abuse him for an old fool, and the king begun to sass back, and the minute they was fairly at it I lit out and shook the reefs out of my hind legs, and spun down the river road like a deer, for I see our chance; and I made up my mind that it would be a long day before they ever see me and Jim again.  I got down there all out of breath but loaded up with joy, and sung out: “Set her loose, Jim! we're all right now!” But there warn't no answer, and nobody come out of the wigwam.  Jim was gone!  I set up a shout—and then another—and then another one; and run this way and that in the woods, whooping and screeching; but it warn't no use—old Jim was gone.  Then I set down and cried; I couldn't help it. But I couldn't set still long.  Pretty soon I went out on the road, trying to think what I better do, and I run across a boy walking, and asked him if he'd seen a strange nigger dressed so and so, and he says: “Yes.” “Whereabouts?” says I. “Down to Silas Phelps' place, two mile below here.  He's a runaway nigger, and they've got him.  Was you looking for him?” “You bet I ain't!  I run across him in the woods about an hour or two ago, and he said if I hollered he'd cut my livers out—and told me to lay down and stay where I was; and I done it.  Been there ever since; afeard to come out.” “Well,” he says, “you needn't be afeard no more, becuz they've got him. He run off f'm down South, som'ers.” “It's a good job they got him.” “Well, I reckon!  There's two hunderd dollars reward on him.  It's like picking up money out'n the road.” “Yes, it is—and I could a had it if I'd been big enough; I see him first. Who nailed him?” “It was an old fellow—a stranger—and he sold out his chance in him for forty dollars, becuz he's got to go up the river and can't wait.  Think o' that, now!  You bet I'd wait, if it was seven year.” “That's me, every time,” says I.  "But maybe his chance ain't worth no more than that, if he'll sell it so cheap.  Maybe there's something ain't straight about it.” “But it is, though—straight as a string.  I see the handbill myself.  It tells all about him, to a dot—paints him like a picture, and tells the plantation he's frum, below Newrleans.  No-sirree-bob, they ain't no trouble 'bout that speculation, you bet you.  Say, gimme a chaw tobacker, won't ye?” I didn't have none, so he left.  I went to the raft, and set down in the wigwam to think.  But I couldn't come to nothing.  I thought till I wore my head sore, but I couldn't see no way out of the trouble.  After all this long journey, and after all we'd done for them scoundrels, here it was all come to nothing, everything all busted up and ruined, because they could have the heart to serve Jim such a trick as that, and make him a slave again all his life, and amongst strangers, too, for forty dirty dollars. Once I said to myself it would be a thousand times better for Jim to be a slave at home where his family was, as long as he'd got to be a slave, and so I'd better write a letter to Tom Sawyer and tell him to tell Miss Watson where he was.  But I soon give up that notion for two things: she'd be mad and disgusted at his rascality and ungratefulness for leaving her, and so she'd sell him straight down the river again; and if she didn't, everybody naturally despises an ungrateful nigger, and they'd make Jim feel it all the time, and so he'd feel ornery and disgraced. And then think of me!  It would get all around that Huck Finn helped a nigger to get his freedom; and if I was ever to see anybody from that town again I'd be ready to get down and lick his boots for shame.  That's just the way:  a person does a low-down thing, and then he don't want to take no consequences of it. Thinks as long as he can hide it, it ain't no disgrace.  That was my fix exactly. The more I studied about this the more my conscience went to grinding me, and the more wicked and low-down and ornery I got to feeling. And at last, when it hit me all of a sudden that here was the plain hand of Providence slapping me in the face and letting me know my wickedness was being watched all the time from up there in heaven, whilst I was stealing a poor old woman's nigger that hadn't ever done me no harm, and now was showing me there's One that's always on the lookout, and ain't a-going to allow no such miserable doings to go only just so fur and no further, I most dropped in my tracks I was so scared.  Well, I tried the best I could to kinder soften it up somehow for myself by saying I was brung up wicked, and so I warn't so much to blame; but something inside of me kept saying, “There was the Sunday-school, you could a gone to it; and if you'd a done it they'd a learnt you there that people that acts as I'd been acting about that nigger goes to everlasting fire.” It made me shiver.  And I about made up my mind to pray, and see if I couldn't try to quit being the kind of a boy I was and be better.  So I kneeled down.  But the words wouldn't come.  Why wouldn't they?  It warn't no use to try and hide it from Him.  Nor from me, neither.  I knowed very well why they wouldn't come.  It was because my heart warn't right; it was because I warn't square; it was because I was playing double.  I was letting on to give up sin, but away inside of me I was holding on to the biggest one of all.  I was trying to make my mouth say I would do the right thing and the clean thing, and go and write to that nigger's owner and tell where he was; but deep down in me I knowed it was a lie, and He knowed it.  You can't pray a lie—I found that out. So I was full of trouble, full as I could be; and didn't know what to do. At last I had an idea; and I says, I'll go and write the letter—and then see if I can pray.  Why, it was astonishing, the way I felt as light as a feather right straight off, and my troubles all gone.  So I got a piece of paper and a pencil, all glad and excited, and set down and wrote: Miss Watson, your runaway nigger Jim is down here two mile below Pikesville, and Mr. Phelps has got him and he will give him up for the reward if you send. Huck Finn. I felt good and all washed clean of sin for the first time I had ever felt so in my life, and I knowed I could pray now.  But I didn't do it straight off, but laid the paper down and set there thinking—thinking how good it was all this happened so, and how near I come to being lost and going to hell.  And went on thinking.  And got to thinking over our trip down the river; and I see Jim before me all the time:  in the day and in the night-time, sometimes moonlight, sometimes storms, and we a-floating along, talking and singing and laughing.  But somehow I couldn't seem to strike no places to harden me against him, but only the other kind.  I'd see him standing my watch on top of his'n, 'stead of calling me, so I could go on sleeping; and see him how glad he was when I come back out of the fog; and when I come to him again in the swamp, up there where the feud was; and such-like times; and would always call me honey, and pet me and do everything he could think of for me, and how good he always was; and at last I struck the time I saved him by telling the men we had small-pox aboard, and he was so grateful, and said I was the best friend old Jim ever had in the world, and the only one he's got now; and then I happened to look around and see that paper. It was a close place.  I took it up, and held it in my hand.  I was a-trembling, because I'd got to decide, forever, betwixt two things, and I knowed it.  I studied a minute, sort of holding my breath, and then says to myself: “All right, then, I'll go to hell”—and tore it up. It was awful thoughts and awful words, but they was said.  And I let them stay said; and never thought no more about reforming.  I shoved the whole thing out of my head, and said I would take up wickedness again, which was in my line, being brung up to it, and the other warn't.  And for a starter I would go to work and steal Jim out of slavery again; and if I could think up anything worse, I would do that, too; because as long as I was in, and in for good, I might as well go the whole hog. Then I set to thinking over how to get at it, and turned over some considerable many ways in my mind; and at last fixed up a plan that suited me.  So then I took the bearings of a woody island that was down the river a piece, and as soon as it was fairly dark I crept out with my raft and went for it, and hid it there, and then turned in.  I slept the night through, and got up before it was light, and had my breakfast, and put on my store clothes, and tied up some others and one thing or another in a bundle, and took the canoe and cleared for shore.  I landed below where I judged was Phelps's place, and hid my bundle in the woods, and then filled up the canoe with water, and loaded rocks into her and sunk her where I could find her again when I wanted her, about a quarter of a mile below a little steam sawmill that was on the bank. Then I struck up the road, and when I passed the mill I see a sign on it, “Phelps's Sawmill,” and when I come to the farm-houses, two or three hundred yards further along, I kept my eyes peeled, but didn't see nobody around, though it was good daylight now.  But I didn't mind, because I didn't want to see nobody just yet—I only wanted to get the lay of the land. According to my plan, I was going to turn up there from the village, not from below.  So I just took a look, and shoved along, straight for town. Well, the very first man I see when I got there was the duke.  He was sticking up a bill for the Royal Nonesuch—three-night performance—like that other time.  They had the cheek, them frauds!  I was right on him before I could shirk.  He looked astonished, and says: “Hel-lo!  Where'd you come from?”  Then he says, kind of glad and eager, “Where's the raft?—got her in a good place?” I says: “Why, that's just what I was going to ask your grace.” Then he didn't look so joyful, and says: “What was your idea for asking me?” he says. “Well,” I says, “when I see the king in that doggery yesterday I says to myself, we can't get him home for hours, till he's soberer; so I went a-loafing around town to put in the time and wait.  A man up and offered me ten cents to help him pull a skiff over the river and back to fetch a sheep, and so I went along; but when we was dragging him to the boat, and the man left me a-holt of the rope and went behind him to shove him along, he was too strong for me and jerked loose and run, and we after him.  We didn't have no dog, and so we had to chase him all over the country till we tired him out.  We never got him till dark; then we fetched him over, and I started down for the raft.  When I got there and see it was gone, I says to myself, 'They've got into trouble and had to leave; and they've took my nigger, which is the only nigger I've got in the world, and now I'm in a strange country, and ain't got no property no more, nor nothing, and no way to make my living;' so I set down and cried.  I slept in the woods all night.  But what did become of the raft, then?—and Jim—poor Jim!” “Blamed if I know—that is, what's become of the raft.  That old fool had made a trade and got forty dollars, and when we found him in the doggery the loafers had matched half-dollars with him and got every cent but what he'd spent for whisky; and when I got him home late last night and found the raft gone, we said, 'That little rascal has stole our raft and shook us, and run off down the river.'” “I wouldn't shake my nigger, would I?—the only nigger I had in the world, and the only property.” “We never thought of that.  Fact is, I reckon we'd come to consider him our nigger; yes, we did consider him so—goodness knows we had trouble enough for him.  So when we see the raft was gone and we flat broke, there warn't anything for it but to try the Royal Nonesuch another shake. And I've pegged along ever since, dry as a powder-horn.  Where's that ten cents? Give it here.” I had considerable money, so I give him ten cents, but begged him to spend it for something to eat, and give me some, because it was all the money I had, and I hadn't had nothing to eat since yesterday.  He never said nothing.  The next minute he whirls on me and says: “Do you reckon that nigger would blow on us?  We'd skin him if he done that!” “How can he blow?  Hain't he run off?” “No!  That old fool sold him, and never divided with me, and the money's gone.” “Sold him?”  I says, and begun to cry; “why, he was my nigger, and that was my money.  Where is he?—I want my nigger.” “Well, you can't get your nigger, that's all—so dry up your blubbering. Looky here—do you think you'd venture to blow on us?  Blamed if I think I'd trust you.  Why, if you was to blow on us—” He stopped, but I never see the duke look so ugly out of his eyes before. I went on a-whimpering, and says: “I don't want to blow on nobody; and I ain't got no time to blow, nohow. I got to turn out and find my nigger.” He looked kinder bothered, and stood there with his bills fluttering on his arm, thinking, and wrinkling up his forehead.  At last he says: “I'll tell you something.  We got to be here three days.  If you'll promise you won't blow, and won't let the nigger blow, I'll tell you where to find him.” So I promised, and he says: “A farmer by the name of Silas Ph—” and then he stopped.  You see, he started to tell me the truth; but when he stopped that way, and begun to study and think again, I reckoned he was changing his mind.  And so he was. He wouldn't trust me; he wanted to make sure of having me out of the way the whole three days.  So pretty soon he says: “The man that bought him is named Abram Foster—Abram G. Foster—and he lives forty mile back here in the country, on the road to Lafayette.” “All right,” I says, “I can walk it in three days.  And I'll start this very afternoon.” “No you wont, you'll start now; and don't you lose any time about it, neither, nor do any gabbling by the way.  Just keep a tight tongue in your head and move right along, and then you won't get into trouble with us, d'ye hear?” That was the order I wanted, and that was the one I played for.  I wanted to be left free to work my plans. “So clear out,” he says; “and you can tell Mr. Foster whatever you want to. Maybe you can get him to believe that Jim is your nigger—some idiots don't require documents—leastways I've heard there's such down South here.  And when you tell him the handbill and the reward's bogus, maybe he'll believe you when you explain to him what the idea was for getting 'em out.  Go 'long now, and tell him anything you want to; but mind you don't work your jaw any between here and there.” So I left, and struck for the back country.  I didn't look around, but I kinder felt like he was watching me.  But I knowed I could tire him out at that.  I went straight out in the country as much as a mile before I stopped; then I doubled back through the woods towards Phelps'.  I reckoned I better start in on my plan straight off without fooling around, because I wanted to stop Jim's mouth till these fellows could get away.  I didn't want no trouble with their kind.  I'd seen all I wanted to of them, and wanted to get entirely shut of them. CHAPTER XXXII. WHEN I got there it was all still and Sunday-like, and hot and sunshiny; the hands was gone to the fields; and there was them kind of faint dronings of bugs and flies in the air that makes it seem so lonesome and like everybody's dead and gone; and if a breeze fans along and quivers the leaves it makes you feel mournful, because you feel like it's spirits whispering—spirits that's been dead ever so many years—and you always think they're talking about you.  As a general thing it makes a body wish he was dead, too, and done with it all. Phelps' was one of these little one-horse cotton plantations, and they all look alike.  A rail fence round a two-acre yard; a stile made out of logs sawed off and up-ended in steps, like barrels of a different length, to climb over the fence with, and for the women to stand on when they are going to jump on to a horse; some sickly grass-patches in the big yard, but mostly it was bare and smooth, like an old hat with the nap rubbed off; big double log-house for the white folks—hewed logs, with the chinks stopped up with mud or mortar, and these mud-stripes been whitewashed some time or another; round-log kitchen, with a big broad, open but roofed passage joining it to the house; log smoke-house back of the kitchen; three little log nigger-cabins in a row t'other side the smoke-house; one little hut all by itself away down against the back fence, and some outbuildings down a piece the other side; ash-hopper and big kettle to bile soap in by the little hut; bench by the kitchen door, with bucket of water and a gourd; hound asleep there in the sun; more hounds asleep round about; about three shade trees away off in a corner; some currant bushes and gooseberry bushes in one place by the fence; outside of the fence a garden and a watermelon patch; then the cotton fields begins, and after the fields the woods. I went around and clumb over the back stile by the ash-hopper, and started for the kitchen.  When I got a little ways I heard the dim hum of a spinning-wheel wailing along up and sinking along down again; and then I knowed for certain I wished I was dead—for that is the lonesomest sound in the whole world. I went right along, not fixing up any particular plan, but just trusting to Providence to put the right words in my mouth when the time come; for I'd noticed that Providence always did put the right words in my mouth if I left it alone. When I got half-way, first one hound and then another got up and went for me, and of course I stopped and faced them, and kept still.  And such another powwow as they made!  In a quarter of a minute I was a kind of a hub of a wheel, as you may say—spokes made out of dogs—circle of fifteen of them packed together around me, with their necks and noses stretched up towards me, a-barking and howling; and more a-coming; you could see them sailing over fences and around corners from everywheres. A nigger woman come tearing out of the kitchen with a rolling-pin in her hand, singing out, “Begone you Tige! you Spot! begone sah!” and she fetched first one and then another of them a clip and sent them howling, and then the rest followed; and the next second half of them come back, wagging their tails around me, and making friends with me.  There ain't no harm in a hound, nohow. And behind the woman comes a little nigger girl and two little nigger boys without anything on but tow-linen shirts, and they hung on to their mother's gown, and peeped out from behind her at me, bashful, the way they always do.  And here comes the white woman running from the house, about forty-five or fifty year old, bareheaded, and her spinning-stick in her hand; and behind her comes her little white children, acting the same way the little niggers was doing.  She was smiling all over so she could hardly stand—and says: “It's you, at last!—ain't it?” I out with a “Yes'm” before I thought. She grabbed me and hugged me tight; and then gripped me by both hands and shook and shook; and the tears come in her eyes, and run down over; and she couldn't seem to hug and shake enough, and kept saying, “You don't look as much like your mother as I reckoned you would; but law sakes, I don't care for that, I'm so glad to see you!  Dear, dear, it does seem like I could eat you up!  Children, it's your cousin Tom!—tell him howdy.” But they ducked their heads, and put their fingers in their mouths, and hid behind her.  So she run on: “Lize, hurry up and get him a hot breakfast right away—or did you get your breakfast on the boat?” I said I had got it on the boat.  So then she started for the house, leading me by the hand, and the children tagging after.  When we got there she set me down in a split-bottomed chair, and set herself down on a little low stool in front of me, holding both of my hands, and says: “Now I can have a good look at you; and, laws-a-me, I've been hungry for it a many and a many a time, all these long years, and it's come at last! We been expecting you a couple of days and more.  What kep' you?—boat get aground?” “Yes'm—she—” “Don't say yes'm—say Aunt Sally.  Where'd she get aground?” I didn't rightly know what to say, because I didn't know whether the boat would be coming up the river or down.  But I go a good deal on instinct; and my instinct said she would be coming up—from down towards Orleans. That didn't help me much, though; for I didn't know the names of bars down that way.  I see I'd got to invent a bar, or forget the name of the one we got aground on—or—Now I struck an idea, and fetched it out: “It warn't the grounding—that didn't keep us back but a little.  We blowed out a cylinder-head.” “Good gracious! anybody hurt?” “No'm.  Killed a nigger.” “Well, it's lucky; because sometimes people do get hurt.  Two years ago last Christmas your uncle Silas was coming up from Newrleans on the old Lally Rook, and she blowed out a cylinder-head and crippled a man.  And I think he died afterwards.  He was a Baptist.  Your uncle Silas knowed a family in Baton Rouge that knowed his people very well.  Yes, I remember now, he did die.  Mortification set in, and they had to amputate him. But it didn't save him.  Yes, it was mortification—that was it.  He turned blue all over, and died in the hope of a glorious resurrection. They say he was a sight to look at.  Your uncle's been up to the town every day to fetch you. And he's gone again, not more'n an hour ago; he'll be back any minute now. You must a met him on the road, didn't you?—oldish man, with a—” “No, I didn't see nobody, Aunt Sally.  The boat landed just at daylight, and I left my baggage on the wharf-boat and went looking around the town and out a piece in the country, to put in the time and not get here too soon; and so I come down the back way.” “Who'd you give the baggage to?” “Nobody.” “Why, child, it 'll be stole!” “Not where I hid it I reckon it won't,” I says. “How'd you get your breakfast so early on the boat?” It was kinder thin ice, but I says: “The captain see me standing around, and told me I better have something to eat before I went ashore; so he took me in the texas to the officers' lunch, and give me all I wanted.” I was getting so uneasy I couldn't listen good.  I had my mind on the children all the time; I wanted to get them out to one side and pump them a little, and find out who I was.  But I couldn't get no show, Mrs. Phelps kept it up and run on so.  Pretty soon she made the cold chills streak all down my back, because she says: “But here we're a-running on this way, and you hain't told me a word about Sis, nor any of them.  Now I'll rest my works a little, and you start up yourn; just tell me everything—tell me all about 'm all every one of 'm; and how they are, and what they're doing, and what they told you to tell me; and every last thing you can think of.” Well, I see I was up a stump—and up it good.  Providence had stood by me this fur all right, but I was hard and tight aground now.  I see it warn't a bit of use to try to go ahead—I'd got to throw up my hand.  So I says to myself, here's another place where I got to resk the truth.  I opened my mouth to begin; but she grabbed me and hustled me in behind the bed, and says: “Here he comes!  Stick your head down lower—there, that'll do; you can't be seen now.  Don't you let on you're here.  I'll play a joke on him. Children, don't you say a word.” I see I was in a fix now.  But it warn't no use to worry; there warn't nothing to do but just hold still, and try and be ready to stand from under when the lightning struck. I had just one little glimpse of the old gentleman when he come in; then the bed hid him.  Mrs. Phelps she jumps for him, and says: “Has he come?” “No,” says her husband. “Good-ness gracious!” she says, “what in the warld can have become of him?” “I can't imagine,” says the old gentleman; “and I must say it makes me dreadful uneasy.” “Uneasy!” she says; “I'm ready to go distracted!  He must a come; and you've missed him along the road.  I know it's so—something tells me so.” “Why, Sally, I couldn't miss him along the road—you know that.” “But oh, dear, dear, what will Sis say!  He must a come!  You must a missed him.  He—” “Oh, don't distress me any more'n I'm already distressed.  I don't know what in the world to make of it.  I'm at my wit's end, and I don't mind acknowledging 't I'm right down scared.  But there's no hope that he's come; for he couldn't come and me miss him.  Sally, it's terrible—just terrible—something's happened to the boat, sure!” “Why, Silas!  Look yonder!—up the road!—ain't that somebody coming?” He sprung to the window at the head of the bed, and that give Mrs. Phelps the chance she wanted.  She stooped down quick at the foot of the bed and give me a pull, and out I come; and when he turned back from the window there she stood, a-beaming and a-smiling like a house afire, and I standing pretty meek and sweaty alongside.  The old gentleman stared, and says: “Why, who's that?” “Who do you reckon 't is?” “I hain't no idea.  Who is it?” “It's Tom Sawyer!” By jings, I most slumped through the floor!  But there warn't no time to swap knives; the old man grabbed me by the hand and shook, and kept on shaking; and all the time how the woman did dance around and laugh and cry; and then how they both did fire off questions about Sid, and Mary, and the rest of the tribe. But if they was joyful, it warn't nothing to what I was; for it was like being born again, I was so glad to find out who I was.  Well, they froze to me for two hours; and at last, when my chin was so tired it couldn't hardly go any more, I had told them more about my family—I mean the Sawyer family—than ever happened to any six Sawyer families.  And I explained all about how we blowed out a cylinder-head at the mouth of White River, and it took us three days to fix it.  Which was all right, and worked first-rate; because they didn't know but what it would take three days to fix it.  If I'd a called it a bolthead it would a done just as well. Now I was feeling pretty comfortable all down one side, and pretty uncomfortable all up the other.  Being Tom Sawyer was easy and comfortable, and it stayed easy and comfortable till by and by I hear a steamboat coughing along down the river.  Then I says to myself, s'pose Tom Sawyer comes down on that boat?  And s'pose he steps in here any minute, and sings out my name before I can throw him a wink to keep quiet? Well, I couldn't have it that way; it wouldn't do at all.  I must go up the road and waylay him.  So I told the folks I reckoned I would go up to the town and fetch down my baggage.  The old gentleman was for going along with me, but I said no, I could drive the horse myself, and I druther he wouldn't take no trouble about me. CHAPTER XXXIII. SO I started for town in the wagon, and when I was half-way I see a wagon coming, and sure enough it was Tom Sawyer, and I stopped and waited till he come along.  I says “Hold on!” and it stopped alongside, and his mouth opened up like a trunk, and stayed so; and he swallowed two or three times like a person that's got a dry throat, and then says: “I hain't ever done you no harm.  You know that.  So, then, what you want to come back and ha'nt me for?” I says: “I hain't come back—I hain't been gone.” When he heard my voice it righted him up some, but he warn't quite satisfied yet.  He says: “Don't you play nothing on me, because I wouldn't on you.  Honest injun now, you ain't a ghost?” “Honest injun, I ain't,” I says. “Well—I—I—well, that ought to settle it, of course; but I can't somehow seem to understand it no way.  Looky here, warn't you ever murdered at all?” “No.  I warn't ever murdered at all—I played it on them.  You come in here and feel of me if you don't believe me.” So he done it; and it satisfied him; and he was that glad to see me again he didn't know what to do.  And he wanted to know all about it right off, because it was a grand adventure, and mysterious, and so it hit him where he lived.  But I said, leave it alone till by and by; and told his driver to wait, and we drove off a little piece, and I told him the kind of a fix I was in, and what did he reckon we better do?  He said, let him alone a minute, and don't disturb him.  So he thought and thought, and pretty soon he says: “It's all right; I've got it.  Take my trunk in your wagon, and let on it's your'n; and you turn back and fool along slow, so as to get to the house about the time you ought to; and I'll go towards town a piece, and take a fresh start, and get there a quarter or a half an hour after you; and you needn't let on to know me at first.” I says: “All right; but wait a minute.  There's one more thing—a thing that nobody don't know but me.  And that is, there's a nigger here that I'm a-trying to steal out of slavery, and his name is Jim—old Miss Watson's Jim.” He says: “What!  Why, Jim is—” He stopped and went to studying.  I says: “I know what you'll say.  You'll say it's dirty, low-down business; but what if it is?  I'm low down; and I'm a-going to steal him, and I want you keep mum and not let on.  Will you?” His eye lit up, and he says: “I'll help you steal him!” Well, I let go all holts then, like I was shot.  It was the most astonishing speech I ever heard—and I'm bound to say Tom Sawyer fell considerable in my estimation.  Only I couldn't believe it.  Tom Sawyer a nigger-stealer! “Oh, shucks!”  I says; “you're joking.” “I ain't joking, either.” “Well, then,” I says, “joking or no joking, if you hear anything said about a runaway nigger, don't forget to remember that you don't know nothing about him, and I don't know nothing about him.” Then we took the trunk and put it in my wagon, and he drove off his way and I drove mine.  But of course I forgot all about driving slow on accounts of being glad and full of thinking; so I got home a heap too quick for that length of a trip.  The old gentleman was at the door, and he says: “Why, this is wonderful!  Whoever would a thought it was in that mare to do it?  I wish we'd a timed her.  And she hain't sweated a hair—not a hair. It's wonderful.  Why, I wouldn't take a hundred dollars for that horse now—I wouldn't, honest; and yet I'd a sold her for fifteen before, and thought 'twas all she was worth.” That's all he said.  He was the innocentest, best old soul I ever see. But it warn't surprising; because he warn't only just a farmer, he was a preacher, too, and had a little one-horse log church down back of the plantation, which he built it himself at his own expense, for a church and schoolhouse, and never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too.  There was plenty other farmer-preachers like that, and done the same way, down South. In about half an hour Tom's wagon drove up to the front stile, and Aunt Sally she see it through the window, because it was only about fifty yards, and says: “Why, there's somebody come!  I wonder who 'tis?  Why, I do believe it's a stranger.  Jimmy” (that's one of the children) “run and tell Lize to put on another plate for dinner.” Everybody made a rush for the front door, because, of course, a stranger don't come every year, and so he lays over the yaller-fever, for interest, when he does come.  Tom was over the stile and starting for the house; the wagon was spinning up the road for the village, and we was all bunched in the front door.  Tom had his store clothes on, and an audience—and that was always nuts for Tom Sawyer.  In them circumstances it warn't no trouble to him to throw in an amount of style that was suitable.  He warn't a boy to meeky along up that yard like a sheep; no, he come ca'm and important, like the ram.  When he got a-front of us he lifts his hat ever so gracious and dainty, like it was the lid of a box that had butterflies asleep in it and he didn't want to disturb them, and says: “Mr. Archibald Nichols, I presume?” “No, my boy,” says the old gentleman, “I'm sorry to say 't your driver has deceived you; Nichols's place is down a matter of three mile more. Come in, come in.” Tom he took a look back over his shoulder, and says, “Too late—he's out of sight.” “Yes, he's gone, my son, and you must come in and eat your dinner with us; and then we'll hitch up and take you down to Nichols's.” “Oh, I can't make you so much trouble; I couldn't think of it.  I'll walk—I don't mind the distance.” “But we won't let you walk—it wouldn't be Southern hospitality to do it. Come right in.” “Oh, do,” says Aunt Sally; “it ain't a bit of trouble to us, not a bit in the world.  You must stay.  It's a long, dusty three mile, and we can't let you walk.  And, besides, I've already told 'em to put on another plate when I see you coming; so you mustn't disappoint us.  Come right in and make yourself at home.” So Tom he thanked them very hearty and handsome, and let himself be persuaded, and come in; and when he was in he said he was a stranger from Hicksville, Ohio, and his name was William Thompson—and he made another bow. Well, he run on, and on, and on, making up stuff about Hicksville and everybody in it he could invent, and I getting a little nervious, and wondering how this was going to help me out of my scrape; and at last, still talking along, he reached over and kissed Aunt Sally right on the mouth, and then settled back again in his chair comfortable, and was going on talking; but she jumped up and wiped it off with the back of her hand, and says: “You owdacious puppy!” He looked kind of hurt, and says: “I'm surprised at you, m'am.” “You're s'rp—Why, what do you reckon I am?  I've a good notion to take and—Say, what do you mean by kissing me?” He looked kind of humble, and says: “I didn't mean nothing, m'am.  I didn't mean no harm.  I—I—thought you'd like it.” “Why, you born fool!”  She took up the spinning stick, and it looked like it was all she could do to keep from giving him a crack with it.  "What made you think I'd like it?” “Well, I don't know.  Only, they—they—told me you would.” “They told you I would.  Whoever told you's another lunatic.  I never heard the beat of it.  Who's they?” “Why, everybody.  They all said so, m'am.” It was all she could do to hold in; and her eyes snapped, and her fingers worked like she wanted to scratch him; and she says: “Who's 'everybody'?  Out with their names, or ther'll be an idiot short.” He got up and looked distressed, and fumbled his hat, and says: “I'm sorry, and I warn't expecting it.  They told me to.  They all told me to.  They all said, kiss her; and said she'd like it.  They all said it—every one of them.  But I'm sorry, m'am, and I won't do it no more—I won't, honest.” “You won't, won't you?  Well, I sh'd reckon you won't!” “No'm, I'm honest about it; I won't ever do it again—till you ask me.” “Till I ask you!  Well, I never see the beat of it in my born days!  I lay you'll be the Methusalem-numskull of creation before ever I ask you—or the likes of you.” “Well,” he says, “it does surprise me so.  I can't make it out, somehow. They said you would, and I thought you would.  But—” He stopped and looked around slow, like he wished he could run across a friendly eye somewheres, and fetched up on the old gentleman's, and says, “Didn't you think she'd like me to kiss her, sir?” “Why, no; I—I—well, no, I b'lieve I didn't.” Then he looks on around the same way to me, and says: “Tom, didn't you think Aunt Sally 'd open out her arms and say, 'Sid Sawyer—'” “My land!” she says, breaking in and jumping for him, “you impudent young rascal, to fool a body so—” and was going to hug him, but he fended her off, and says: “No, not till you've asked me first.” So she didn't lose no time, but asked him; and hugged him and kissed him over and over again, and then turned him over to the old man, and he took what was left.  And after they got a little quiet again she says: “Why, dear me, I never see such a surprise.  We warn't looking for you at all, but only Tom.  Sis never wrote to me about anybody coming but him.” “It's because it warn't intended for any of us to come but Tom,” he says; “but I begged and begged, and at the last minute she let me come, too; so, coming down the river, me and Tom thought it would be a first-rate surprise for him to come here to the house first, and for me to by and by tag along and drop in, and let on to be a stranger.  But it was a mistake, Aunt Sally.  This ain't no healthy place for a stranger to come.” “No—not impudent whelps, Sid.  You ought to had your jaws boxed; I hain't been so put out since I don't know when.  But I don't care, I don't mind the terms—I'd be willing to stand a thousand such jokes to have you here. Well, to think of that performance!  I don't deny it, I was most putrified with astonishment when you give me that smack.” We had dinner out in that broad open passage betwixt the house and the kitchen; and there was things enough on that table for seven families—and all hot, too; none of your flabby, tough meat that's laid in a cupboard in a damp cellar all night and tastes like a hunk of old cold cannibal in the morning.  Uncle Silas he asked a pretty long blessing over it, but it was worth it; and it didn't cool it a bit, neither, the way I've seen them kind of interruptions do lots of times.  There was a considerable good deal of talk all the afternoon, and me and Tom was on the lookout all the time; but it warn't no use, they didn't happen to say nothing about any runaway nigger, and we was afraid to try to work up to it.  But at supper, at night, one of the little boys says: “Pa, mayn't Tom and Sid and me go to the show?” “No,” says the old man, “I reckon there ain't going to be any; and you couldn't go if there was; because the runaway nigger told Burton and me all about that scandalous show, and Burton said he would tell the people; so I reckon they've drove the owdacious loafers out of town before this time.” So there it was!—but I couldn't help it.  Tom and me was to sleep in the same room and bed; so, being tired, we bid good-night and went up to bed right after supper, and clumb out of the window and down the lightning-rod, and shoved for the town; for I didn't believe anybody was going to give the king and the duke a hint, and so if I didn't hurry up and give them one they'd get into trouble sure. On the road Tom he told me all about how it was reckoned I was murdered, and how pap disappeared pretty soon, and didn't come back no more, and what a stir there was when Jim run away; and I told Tom all about our Royal Nonesuch rapscallions, and as much of the raft voyage as I had time to; and as we struck into the town and up through the the middle of it--it was as much as half-after eight, then—here comes a raging rush of people with torches, and an awful whooping and yelling, and banging tin pans and blowing horns; and we jumped to one side to let them go by; and as they went by I see they had the king and the duke astraddle of a rail—that is, I knowed it was the king and the duke, though they was all over tar and feathers, and didn't look like nothing in the world that was human—just looked like a couple of monstrous big soldier-plumes.  Well, it made me sick to see it; and I was sorry for them poor pitiful rascals, it seemed like I couldn't ever feel any hardness against them any more in the world.  It was a dreadful thing to see.  Human beings can be awful cruel to one another. We see we was too late—couldn't do no good.  We asked some stragglers about it, and they said everybody went to the show looking very innocent; and laid low and kept dark till the poor old king was in the middle of his cavortings on the stage; then somebody give a signal, and the house rose up and went for them. So we poked along back home, and I warn't feeling so brash as I was before, but kind of ornery, and humble, and to blame, somehow—though I hadn't done nothing.  But that's always the way; it don't make no difference whether you do right or wrong, a person's conscience ain't got no sense, and just goes for him anyway.  If I had a yaller dog that didn't know no more than a person's conscience does I would pison him. It takes up more room than all the rest of a person's insides, and yet ain't no good, nohow.  Tom Sawyer he says the same. CHAPTER XXXIV. WE stopped talking, and got to thinking.  By and by Tom says: “Looky here, Huck, what fools we are to not think of it before!  I bet I know where Jim is.” “No!  Where?” “In that hut down by the ash-hopper.  Why, looky here.  When we was at dinner, didn't you see a nigger man go in there with some vittles?” “Yes.” “What did you think the vittles was for?” “For a dog.” “So 'd I. Well, it wasn't for a dog.” “Why?” “Because part of it was watermelon.” “So it was—I noticed it.  Well, it does beat all that I never thought about a dog not eating watermelon.  It shows how a body can see and don't see at the same time.” “Well, the nigger unlocked the padlock when he went in, and he locked it again when he came out.  He fetched uncle a key about the time we got up from table—same key, I bet.  Watermelon shows man, lock shows prisoner; and it ain't likely there's two prisoners on such a little plantation, and where the people's all so kind and good.  Jim's the prisoner.  All right—I'm glad we found it out detective fashion; I wouldn't give shucks for any other way.  Now you work your mind, and study out a plan to steal Jim, and I will study out one, too; and we'll take the one we like the best.” What a head for just a boy to have!  If I had Tom Sawyer's head I wouldn't trade it off to be a duke, nor mate of a steamboat, nor clown in a circus, nor nothing I can think of.  I went to thinking out a plan, but only just to be doing something; I knowed very well where the right plan was going to come from.  Pretty soon Tom says: “Ready?” “Yes,” I says. “All right—bring it out.” “My plan is this,” I says.  "We can easy find out if it's Jim in there. Then get up my canoe to-morrow night, and fetch my raft over from the island.  Then the first dark night that comes steal the key out of the old man's britches after he goes to bed, and shove off down the river on the raft with Jim, hiding daytimes and running nights, the way me and Jim used to do before.  Wouldn't that plan work?” “Work?  Why, cert'nly it would work, like rats a-fighting.  But it's too blame' simple; there ain't nothing to it.  What's the good of a plan that ain't no more trouble than that?  It's as mild as goose-milk.  Why, Huck, it wouldn't make no more talk than breaking into a soap factory.” I never said nothing, because I warn't expecting nothing different; but I knowed mighty well that whenever he got his plan ready it wouldn't have none of them objections to it. And it didn't.  He told me what it was, and I see in a minute it was worth fifteen of mine for style, and would make Jim just as free a man as mine would, and maybe get us all killed besides.  So I was satisfied, and said we would waltz in on it.  I needn't tell what it was here, because I knowed it wouldn't stay the way, it was.  I knowed he would be changing it around every which way as we went along, and heaving in new bullinesses wherever he got a chance.  And that is what he done. Well, one thing was dead sure, and that was that Tom Sawyer was in earnest, and was actuly going to help steal that nigger out of slavery. That was the thing that was too many for me.  Here was a boy that was respectable and well brung up; and had a character to lose; and folks at home that had characters; and he was bright and not leather-headed; and knowing and not ignorant; and not mean, but kind; and yet here he was, without any more pride, or rightness, or feeling, than to stoop to this business, and make himself a shame, and his family a shame, before everybody.  I couldn't understand it no way at all.  It was outrageous, and I knowed I ought to just up and tell him so; and so be his true friend, and let him quit the thing right where he was and save himself. And I did start to tell him; but he shut me up, and says: “Don't you reckon I know what I'm about?  Don't I generly know what I'm about?” “Yes.” “Didn't I say I was going to help steal the nigger?” “Yes.” “Well, then.” That's all he said, and that's all I said.  It warn't no use to say any more; because when he said he'd do a thing, he always done it.  But I couldn't make out how he was willing to go into this thing; so I just let it go, and never bothered no more about it.  If he was bound to have it so, I couldn't help it. When we got home the house was all dark and still; so we went on down to the hut by the ash-hopper for to examine it.  We went through the yard so as to see what the hounds would do.  They knowed us, and didn't make no more noise than country dogs is always doing when anything comes by in the night.  When we got to the cabin we took a look at the front and the two sides; and on the side I warn't acquainted with—which was the north side—we found a square window-hole, up tolerable high, with just one stout board nailed across it.  I says: “Here's the ticket.  This hole's big enough for Jim to get through if we wrench off the board.” Tom says: “It's as simple as tit-tat-toe, three-in-a-row, and as easy as playing hooky.  I should hope we can find a way that's a little more complicated than that, Huck Finn.” “Well, then,” I says, “how 'll it do to saw him out, the way I done before I was murdered that time?” “That's more like,” he says.  "It's real mysterious, and troublesome, and good,” he says; “but I bet we can find a way that's twice as long.  There ain't no hurry; le's keep on looking around.” Betwixt the hut and the fence, on the back side, was a lean-to that joined the hut at the eaves, and was made out of plank.  It was as long as the hut, but narrow—only about six foot wide.  The door to it was at the south end, and was padlocked.  Tom he went to the soap-kettle and searched around, and fetched back the iron thing they lift the lid with; so he took it and prized out one of the staples.  The chain fell down, and we opened the door and went in, and shut it, and struck a match, and see the shed was only built against a cabin and hadn't no connection with it; and there warn't no floor to the shed, nor nothing in it but some old rusty played-out hoes and spades and picks and a crippled plow.  The match went out, and so did we, and shoved in the staple again, and the door was locked as good as ever. Tom was joyful.  He says; “Now we're all right.  We'll dig him out.  It 'll take about a week!” Then we started for the house, and I went in the back door—you only have to pull a buckskin latch-string, they don't fasten the doors—but that warn't romantical enough for Tom Sawyer; no way would do him but he must climb up the lightning-rod.  But after he got up half way about three times, and missed fire and fell every time, and the last time most busted his brains out, he thought he'd got to give it up; but after he was rested he allowed he would give her one more turn for luck, and this time he made the trip. In the morning we was up at break of day, and down to the nigger cabins to pet the dogs and make friends with the nigger that fed Jim—if it was Jim that was being fed.  The niggers was just getting through breakfast and starting for the fields; and Jim's nigger was piling up a tin pan with bread and meat and things; and whilst the others was leaving, the key come from the house. This nigger had a good-natured, chuckle-headed face, and his wool was all tied up in little bunches with thread.  That was to keep witches off.  He said the witches was pestering him awful these nights, and making him see all kinds of strange things, and hear all kinds of strange words and noises, and he didn't believe he was ever witched so long before in his life.  He got so worked up, and got to running on so about his troubles, he forgot all about what he'd been a-going to do.  So Tom says: “What's the vittles for?  Going to feed the dogs?” The nigger kind of smiled around gradually over his face, like when you heave a brickbat in a mud-puddle, and he says: “Yes, Mars Sid, A dog.  Cur'us dog, too.  Does you want to go en look at 'im?” “Yes.” I hunched Tom, and whispers: “You going, right here in the daybreak?  that warn't the plan.” “No, it warn't; but it's the plan now.” So, drat him, we went along, but I didn't like it much.  When we got in we couldn't hardly see anything, it was so dark; but Jim was there, sure enough, and could see us; and he sings out: “Why, Huck!  En good lan'! ain' dat Misto Tom?” I just knowed how it would be; I just expected it.  I didn't know nothing to do; and if I had I couldn't a done it, because that nigger busted in and says: “Why, de gracious sakes! do he know you genlmen?” We could see pretty well now.  Tom he looked at the nigger, steady and kind of wondering, and says: “Does who know us?” “Why, dis-yer runaway nigger.” “I don't reckon he does; but what put that into your head?” “What put it dar?  Didn' he jis' dis minute sing out like he knowed you?” Tom says, in a puzzled-up kind of way: “Well, that's mighty curious.  Who sung out? when did he sing out?  what did he sing out?” And turns to me, perfectly ca'm, and says, “Did you hear anybody sing out?” Of course there warn't nothing to be said but the one thing; so I says: “No; I ain't heard nobody say nothing.” Then he turns to Jim, and looks him over like he never see him before, and says: “Did you sing out?” “No, sah,” says Jim; “I hain't said nothing, sah.” “Not a word?” “No, sah, I hain't said a word.” “Did you ever see us before?” “No, sah; not as I knows on.” So Tom turns to the nigger, which was looking wild and distressed, and says, kind of severe: “What do you reckon's the matter with you, anyway?  What made you think somebody sung out?” “Oh, it's de dad-blame' witches, sah, en I wisht I was dead, I do.  Dey's awluz at it, sah, en dey do mos' kill me, dey sk'yers me so.  Please to don't tell nobody 'bout it sah, er ole Mars Silas he'll scole me; 'kase he say dey ain't no witches.  I jis' wish to goodness he was heah now—den what would he say!  I jis' bet he couldn' fine no way to git aroun' it dis time.  But it's awluz jis' so; people dat's sot, stays sot; dey won't look into noth'n'en fine it out f'r deyselves, en when you fine it out en tell um 'bout it, dey doan' b'lieve you.” Tom give him a dime, and said we wouldn't tell nobody; and told him to buy some more thread to tie up his wool with; and then looks at Jim, and says: “I wonder if Uncle Silas is going to hang this nigger.  If I was to catch a nigger that was ungrateful enough to run away, I wouldn't give him up, I'd hang him.”  And whilst the nigger stepped to the door to look at the dime and bite it to see if it was good, he whispers to Jim and says: “Don't ever let on to know us.  And if you hear any digging going on nights, it's us; we're going to set you free.” Jim only had time to grab us by the hand and squeeze it; then the nigger come back, and we said we'd come again some time if the nigger wanted us to; and he said he would, more particular if it was dark, because the witches went for him mostly in the dark, and it was good to have folks around then. CHAPTER XXXV. IT would be most an hour yet till breakfast, so we left and struck down into the woods; because Tom said we got to have some light to see how to dig by, and a lantern makes too much, and might get us into trouble; what we must have was a lot of them rotten chunks that's called fox-fire, and just makes a soft kind of a glow when you lay them in a dark place.  We fetched an armful and hid it in the weeds, and set down to rest, and Tom says, kind of dissatisfied: “Blame it, this whole thing is just as easy and awkward as it can be. And so it makes it so rotten difficult to get up a difficult plan.  There ain't no watchman to be drugged—now there ought to be a watchman.  There ain't even a dog to give a sleeping-mixture to.  And there's Jim chained by one leg, with a ten-foot chain, to the leg of his bed:  why, all you got to do is to lift up the bedstead and slip off the chain.  And Uncle Silas he trusts everybody; sends the key to the punkin-headed nigger, and don't send nobody to watch the nigger.  Jim could a got out of that window-hole before this, only there wouldn't be no use trying to travel with a ten-foot chain on his leg.  Why, drat it, Huck, it's the stupidest arrangement I ever see. You got to invent all the difficulties.  Well, we can't help it; we got to do the best we can with the materials we've got. Anyhow, there's one thing—there's more honor in getting him out through a lot of difficulties and dangers, where there warn't one of them furnished to you by the people who it was their duty to furnish them, and you had to contrive them all out of your own head.  Now look at just that one thing of the lantern.  When you come down to the cold facts, we simply got to let on that a lantern's resky.  Why, we could work with a torchlight procession if we wanted to, I believe.  Now, whilst I think of it, we got to hunt up something to make a saw out of the first chance we get.” “What do we want of a saw?” “What do we want of it?  Hain't we got to saw the leg of Jim's bed off, so as to get the chain loose?” “Why, you just said a body could lift up the bedstead and slip the chain off.” “Well, if that ain't just like you, Huck Finn.  You can get up the infant-schooliest ways of going at a thing.  Why, hain't you ever read any books at all?—Baron Trenck, nor Casanova, nor Benvenuto Chelleeny, nor Henri IV., nor none of them heroes?  Who ever heard of getting a prisoner loose in such an old-maidy way as that?  No; the way all the best authorities does is to saw the bed-leg in two, and leave it just so, and swallow the sawdust, so it can't be found, and put some dirt and grease around the sawed place so the very keenest seneskal can't see no sign of it's being sawed, and thinks the bed-leg is perfectly sound. Then, the night you're ready, fetch the leg a kick, down she goes; slip off your chain, and there you are.  Nothing to do but hitch your rope ladder to the battlements, shin down it, break your leg in the moat—because a rope ladder is nineteen foot too short, you know—and there's your horses and your trusty vassles, and they scoop you up and fling you across a saddle, and away you go to your native Langudoc, or Navarre, or wherever it is. It's gaudy, Huck.  I wish there was a moat to this cabin. If we get time, the night of the escape, we'll dig one.” I says: “What do we want of a moat when we're going to snake him out from under the cabin?” But he never heard me.  He had forgot me and everything else.  He had his chin in his hand, thinking.  Pretty soon he sighs and shakes his head; then sighs again, and says: “No, it wouldn't do—there ain't necessity enough for it.” “For what?”  I says. “Why, to saw Jim's leg off,” he says. “Good land!”  I says; “why, there ain't no necessity for it.  And what would you want to saw his leg off for, anyway?” “Well, some of the best authorities has done it.  They couldn't get the chain off, so they just cut their hand off and shoved.  And a leg would be better still.  But we got to let that go.  There ain't necessity enough in this case; and, besides, Jim's a nigger, and wouldn't understand the reasons for it, and how it's the custom in Europe; so we'll let it go.  But there's one thing—he can have a rope ladder; we can tear up our sheets and make him a rope ladder easy enough.  And we can send it to him in a pie; it's mostly done that way.  And I've et worse pies.” “Why, Tom Sawyer, how you talk,” I says; “Jim ain't got no use for a rope ladder.” “He has got use for it.  How you talk, you better say; you don't know nothing about it.  He's got to have a rope ladder; they all do.” “What in the nation can he do with it?” “Do with it?  He can hide it in his bed, can't he?”  That's what they all do; and he's got to, too.  Huck, you don't ever seem to want to do anything that's regular; you want to be starting something fresh all the time. S'pose he don't do nothing with it? ain't it there in his bed, for a clew, after he's gone? and don't you reckon they'll want clews?  Of course they will.  And you wouldn't leave them any?  That would be a pretty howdy-do, wouldn't it!  I never heard of such a thing.” “Well,” I says, “if it's in the regulations, and he's got to have it, all right, let him have it; because I don't wish to go back on no regulations; but there's one thing, Tom Sawyer—if we go to tearing up our sheets to make Jim a rope ladder, we're going to get into trouble with Aunt Sally, just as sure as you're born.  Now, the way I look at it, a hickry-bark ladder don't cost nothing, and don't waste nothing, and is just as good to load up a pie with, and hide in a straw tick, as any rag ladder you can start; and as for Jim, he ain't had no experience, and so he don't care what kind of a—” “Oh, shucks, Huck Finn, if I was as ignorant as you I'd keep still—that's what I'D do.  Who ever heard of a state prisoner escaping by a hickry-bark ladder?  Why, it's perfectly ridiculous.” “Well, all right, Tom, fix it your own way; but if you'll take my advice, you'll let me borrow a sheet off of the clothesline.” He said that would do.  And that gave him another idea, and he says: “Borrow a shirt, too.” “What do we want of a shirt, Tom?” “Want it for Jim to keep a journal on.” “Journal your granny—Jim can't write.” “S'pose he can't write—he can make marks on the shirt, can't he, if we make him a pen out of an old pewter spoon or a piece of an old iron barrel-hoop?” “Why, Tom, we can pull a feather out of a goose and make him a better one; and quicker, too.” “Prisoners don't have geese running around the donjon-keep to pull pens out of, you muggins.  They always make their pens out of the hardest, toughest, troublesomest piece of old brass candlestick or something like that they can get their hands on; and it takes them weeks and weeks and months and months to file it out, too, because they've got to do it by rubbing it on the wall.  They wouldn't use a goose-quill if they had it. It ain't regular.” “Well, then, what'll we make him the ink out of?” “Many makes it out of iron-rust and tears; but that's the common sort and women; the best authorities uses their own blood.  Jim can do that; and when he wants to send any little common ordinary mysterious message to let the world know where he's captivated, he can write it on the bottom of a tin plate with a fork and throw it out of the window.  The Iron Mask always done that, and it's a blame' good way, too.” “Jim ain't got no tin plates.  They feed him in a pan.” “That ain't nothing; we can get him some.” “Can't nobody read his plates.” “That ain't got anything to do with it, Huck Finn.  All he's got to do is to write on the plate and throw it out.  You don't have to be able to read it. Why, half the time you can't read anything a prisoner writes on a tin plate, or anywhere else.” “Well, then, what's the sense in wasting the plates?” “Why, blame it all, it ain't the prisoner's plates.” “But it's somebody's plates, ain't it?” “Well, spos'n it is?  What does the prisoner care whose—” He broke off there, because we heard the breakfast-horn blowing.  So we cleared out for the house. Along during the morning I borrowed a sheet and a white shirt off of the clothes-line; and I found an old sack and put them in it, and we went down and got the fox-fire, and put that in too.  I called it borrowing, because that was what pap always called it; but Tom said it warn't borrowing, it was stealing.  He said we was representing prisoners; and prisoners don't care how they get a thing so they get it, and nobody don't blame them for it, either.  It ain't no crime in a prisoner to steal the thing he needs to get away with, Tom said; it's his right; and so, as long as we was representing a prisoner, we had a perfect right to steal anything on this place we had the least use for to get ourselves out of prison with.  He said if we warn't prisoners it would be a very different thing, and nobody but a mean, ornery person would steal when he warn't a prisoner.  So we allowed we would steal everything there was that come handy.  And yet he made a mighty fuss, one day, after that, when I stole a watermelon out of the nigger-patch and eat it; and he made me go and give the niggers a dime without telling them what it was for. Tom said that what he meant was, we could steal anything we needed. Well, I says, I needed the watermelon.  But he said I didn't need it to get out of prison with; there's where the difference was.  He said if I'd a wanted it to hide a knife in, and smuggle it to Jim to kill the seneskal with, it would a been all right.  So I let it go at that, though I couldn't see no advantage in my representing a prisoner if I got to set down and chaw over a lot of gold-leaf distinctions like that every time I see a chance to hog a watermelon. Well, as I was saying, we waited that morning till everybody was settled down to business, and nobody in sight around the yard; then Tom he carried the sack into the lean-to whilst I stood off a piece to keep watch.  By and by he come out, and we went and set down on the woodpile to talk.  He says: “Everything's all right now except tools; and that's easy fixed.” “Tools?”  I says. “Yes.” “Tools for what?” “Why, to dig with.  We ain't a-going to gnaw him out, are we?” “Ain't them old crippled picks and things in there good enough to dig a nigger out with?”  I says. He turns on me, looking pitying enough to make a body cry, and says: “Huck Finn, did you ever hear of a prisoner having picks and shovels, and all the modern conveniences in his wardrobe to dig himself out with?  Now I want to ask you—if you got any reasonableness in you at all—what kind of a show would that give him to be a hero?  Why, they might as well lend him the key and done with it.  Picks and shovels—why, they wouldn't furnish 'em to a king.” “Well, then,” I says, “if we don't want the picks and shovels, what do we want?” “A couple of case-knives.” “To dig the foundations out from under that cabin with?” “Yes.” “Confound it, it's foolish, Tom.” “It don't make no difference how foolish it is, it's the right way—and it's the regular way.  And there ain't no other way, that ever I heard of, and I've read all the books that gives any information about these things. They always dig out with a case-knife—and not through dirt, mind you; generly it's through solid rock.  And it takes them weeks and weeks and weeks, and for ever and ever.  Why, look at one of them prisoners in the bottom dungeon of the Castle Deef, in the harbor of Marseilles, that dug himself out that way; how long was he at it, you reckon?” “I don't know.” “Well, guess.” “I don't know.  A month and a half.” “Thirty-seven year—and he come out in China.  That's the kind.  I wish the bottom of this fortress was solid rock.” “Jim don't know nobody in China.” “What's that got to do with it?  Neither did that other fellow.  But you're always a-wandering off on a side issue.  Why can't you stick to the main point?” “All right—I don't care where he comes out, so he comes out; and Jim don't, either, I reckon.  But there's one thing, anyway—Jim's too old to be dug out with a case-knife.  He won't last.” “Yes he will last, too.  You don't reckon it's going to take thirty-seven years to dig out through a dirt foundation, do you?” “How long will it take, Tom?” “Well, we can't resk being as long as we ought to, because it mayn't take very long for Uncle Silas to hear from down there by New Orleans.  He'll hear Jim ain't from there.  Then his next move will be to advertise Jim, or something like that.  So we can't resk being as long digging him out as we ought to.  By rights I reckon we ought to be a couple of years; but we can't.  Things being so uncertain, what I recommend is this:  that we really dig right in, as quick as we can; and after that, we can let on, to ourselves, that we was at it thirty-seven years.  Then we can snatch him out and rush him away the first time there's an alarm.  Yes, I reckon that 'll be the best way.” “Now, there's sense in that,” I says.  "Letting on don't cost nothing; letting on ain't no trouble; and if it's any object, I don't mind letting on we was at it a hundred and fifty year.  It wouldn't strain me none, after I got my hand in.  So I'll mosey along now, and smouch a couple of case-knives.” “Smouch three,” he says; “we want one to make a saw out of.” “Tom, if it ain't unregular and irreligious to sejest it,” I says, “there's an old rusty saw-blade around yonder sticking under the weather-boarding behind the smoke-house.” He looked kind of weary and discouraged-like, and says: “It ain't no use to try to learn you nothing, Huck.  Run along and smouch the knives—three of them.”  So I done it. CHAPTER XXXVI. AS soon as we reckoned everybody was asleep that night we went down the lightning-rod, and shut ourselves up in the lean-to, and got out our pile of fox-fire, and went to work.  We cleared everything out of the way, about four or five foot along the middle of the bottom log.  Tom said he was right behind Jim's bed now, and we'd dig in under it, and when we got through there couldn't nobody in the cabin ever know there was any hole there, because Jim's counter-pin hung down most to the ground, and you'd have to raise it up and look under to see the hole.  So we dug and dug with the case-knives till most midnight; and then we was dog-tired, and our hands was blistered, and yet you couldn't see we'd done anything hardly.  At last I says: “This ain't no thirty-seven year job; this is a thirty-eight year job, Tom Sawyer.” He never said nothing.  But he sighed, and pretty soon he stopped digging, and then for a good little while I knowed that he was thinking. Then he says: “It ain't no use, Huck, it ain't a-going to work.  If we was prisoners it would, because then we'd have as many years as we wanted, and no hurry; and we wouldn't get but a few minutes to dig, every day, while they was changing watches, and so our hands wouldn't get blistered, and we could keep it up right along, year in and year out, and do it right, and the way it ought to be done.  But we can't fool along; we got to rush; we ain't got no time to spare.  If we was to put in another night this way we'd have to knock off for a week to let our hands get well—couldn't touch a case-knife with them sooner.” “Well, then, what we going to do, Tom?” “I'll tell you.  It ain't right, and it ain't moral, and I wouldn't like it to get out; but there ain't only just the one way:  we got to dig him out with the picks, and let on it's case-knives.” “Now you're talking!”  I says; “your head gets leveler and leveler all the time, Tom Sawyer,” I says.  "Picks is the thing, moral or no moral; and as for me, I don't care shucks for the morality of it, nohow.  When I start in to steal a nigger, or a watermelon, or a Sunday-school book, I ain't no ways particular how it's done so it's done.  What I want is my nigger; or what I want is my watermelon; or what I want is my Sunday-school book; and if a pick's the handiest thing, that's the thing I'm a-going to dig that nigger or that watermelon or that Sunday-school book out with; and I don't give a dead rat what the authorities thinks about it nuther.” “Well,” he says, “there's excuse for picks and letting-on in a case like this; if it warn't so, I wouldn't approve of it, nor I wouldn't stand by and see the rules broke—because right is right, and wrong is wrong, and a body ain't got no business doing wrong when he ain't ignorant and knows better.  It might answer for you to dig Jim out with a pick, without any letting on, because you don't know no better; but it wouldn't for me, because I do know better.  Gimme a case-knife.” He had his own by him, but I handed him mine.  He flung it down, and says: “Gimme a case-knife.” I didn't know just what to do—but then I thought.  I scratched around amongst the old tools, and got a pickaxe and give it to him, and he took it and went to work, and never said a word. He was always just that particular.  Full of principle. So then I got a shovel, and then we picked and shoveled, turn about, and made the fur fly.  We stuck to it about a half an hour, which was as long as we could stand up; but we had a good deal of a hole to show for it. When I got up stairs I looked out at the window and see Tom doing his level best with the lightning-rod, but he couldn't come it, his hands was so sore.  At last he says: “It ain't no use, it can't be done.  What you reckon I better do?  Can't you think of no way?” “Yes,” I says, “but I reckon it ain't regular.  Come up the stairs, and let on it's a lightning-rod.” So he done it. Next day Tom stole a pewter spoon and a brass candlestick in the house, for to make some pens for Jim out of, and six tallow candles; and I hung around the nigger cabins and laid for a chance, and stole three tin plates.  Tom says it wasn't enough; but I said nobody wouldn't ever see the plates that Jim throwed out, because they'd fall in the dog-fennel and jimpson weeds under the window-hole—then we could tote them back and he could use them over again.  So Tom was satisfied.  Then he says: “Now, the thing to study out is, how to get the things to Jim.” “Take them in through the hole,” I says, “when we get it done.” He only just looked scornful, and said something about nobody ever heard of such an idiotic idea, and then he went to studying.  By and by he said he had ciphered out two or three ways, but there warn't no need to decide on any of them yet.  Said we'd got to post Jim first. That night we went down the lightning-rod a little after ten, and took one of the candles along, and listened under the window-hole, and heard Jim snoring; so we pitched it in, and it didn't wake him.  Then we whirled in with the pick and shovel, and in about two hours and a half the job was done.  We crept in under Jim's bed and into the cabin, and pawed around and found the candle and lit it, and stood over Jim awhile, and found him looking hearty and healthy, and then we woke him up gentle and gradual.  He was so glad to see us he most cried; and called us honey, and all the pet names he could think of; and was for having us hunt up a cold-chisel to cut the chain off of his leg with right away, and clearing out without losing any time.  But Tom he showed him how unregular it would be, and set down and told him all about our plans, and how we could alter them in a minute any time there was an alarm; and not to be the least afraid, because we would see he got away, sure.  So Jim he said it was all right, and we set there and talked over old times awhile, and then Tom asked a lot of questions, and when Jim told him Uncle Silas come in every day or two to pray with him, and Aunt Sally come in to see if he was comfortable and had plenty to eat, and both of them was kind as they could be, Tom says: “Now I know how to fix it.  We'll send you some things by them.” I said, “Don't do nothing of the kind; it's one of the most jackass ideas I ever struck;” but he never paid no attention to me; went right on.  It was his way when he'd got his plans set. So he told Jim how we'd have to smuggle in the rope-ladder pie and other large things by Nat, the nigger that fed him, and he must be on the lookout, and not be surprised, and not let Nat see him open them; and we would put small things in uncle's coat-pockets and he must steal them out; and we would tie things to aunt's apron-strings or put them in her apron-pocket, if we got a chance; and told him what they would be and what they was for.  And told him how to keep a journal on the shirt with his blood, and all that. He told him everything.  Jim he couldn't see no sense in the most of it, but he allowed we was white folks and knowed better than him; so he was satisfied, and said he would do it all just as Tom said. Jim had plenty corn-cob pipes and tobacco; so we had a right down good sociable time; then we crawled out through the hole, and so home to bed, with hands that looked like they'd been chawed.  Tom was in high spirits. He said it was the best fun he ever had in his life, and the most intellectural; and said if he only could see his way to it we would keep it up all the rest of our lives and leave Jim to our children to get out; for he believed Jim would come to like it better and better the more he got used to it.  He said that in that way it could be strung out to as much as eighty year, and would be the best time on record.  And he said it would make us all celebrated that had a hand in it. In the morning we went out to the woodpile and chopped up the brass candlestick into handy sizes, and Tom put them and the pewter spoon in his pocket.  Then we went to the nigger cabins, and while I got Nat's notice off, Tom shoved a piece of candlestick into the middle of a corn-pone that was in Jim's pan, and we went along with Nat to see how it would work, and it just worked noble; when Jim bit into it it most mashed all his teeth out; and there warn't ever anything could a worked better. Tom said so himself. Jim he never let on but what it was only just a piece of rock or something like that that's always getting into bread, you know; but after that he never bit into nothing but what he jabbed his fork into it in three or four places first. And whilst we was a-standing there in the dimmish light, here comes a couple of the hounds bulging in from under Jim's bed; and they kept on piling in till there was eleven of them, and there warn't hardly room in there to get your breath.  By jings, we forgot to fasten that lean-to door!  The nigger Nat he only just hollered “Witches” once, and keeled over on to the floor amongst the dogs, and begun to groan like he was dying.  Tom jerked the door open and flung out a slab of Jim's meat, and the dogs went for it, and in two seconds he was out himself and back again and shut the door, and I knowed he'd fixed the other door too. Then he went to work on the nigger, coaxing him and petting him, and asking him if he'd been imagining he saw something again.  He raised up, and blinked his eyes around, and says: “Mars Sid, you'll say I's a fool, but if I didn't b'lieve I see most a million dogs, er devils, er some'n, I wisht I may die right heah in dese tracks.  I did, mos' sholy.  Mars Sid, I felt um—I felt um, sah; dey was all over me.  Dad fetch it, I jis' wisht I could git my han's on one er dem witches jis' wunst—on'y jis' wunst—it's all I'd ast.  But mos'ly I wisht dey'd lemme 'lone, I does.” Tom says: “Well, I tell you what I think.  What makes them come here just at this runaway nigger's breakfast-time?  It's because they're hungry; that's the reason.  You make them a witch pie; that's the thing for you to do.” “But my lan', Mars Sid, how's I gwyne to make 'm a witch pie?  I doan' know how to make it.  I hain't ever hearn er sich a thing b'fo'.” “Well, then, I'll have to make it myself.” “Will you do it, honey?—will you?  I'll wusshup de groun' und' yo' foot, I will!” “All right, I'll do it, seeing it's you, and you've been good to us and showed us the runaway nigger.  But you got to be mighty careful.  When we come around, you turn your back; and then whatever we've put in the pan, don't you let on you see it at all.  And don't you look when Jim unloads the pan—something might happen, I don't know what.  And above all, don't you handle the witch-things.” “Hannel 'M, Mars Sid?  What is you a-talkin' 'bout?  I wouldn' lay de weight er my finger on um, not f'r ten hund'd thous'n billion dollars, I wouldn't.” CHAPTER XXXVII. THAT was all fixed.  So then we went away and went to the rubbage-pile in the back yard, where they keep the old boots, and rags, and pieces of bottles, and wore-out tin things, and all such truck, and scratched around and found an old tin washpan, and stopped up the holes as well as we could, to bake the pie in, and took it down cellar and stole it full of flour and started for breakfast, and found a couple of shingle-nails that Tom said would be handy for a prisoner to scrabble his name and sorrows on the dungeon walls with, and dropped one of them in Aunt Sally's apron-pocket which was hanging on a chair, and t'other we stuck in the band of Uncle Silas's hat, which was on the bureau, because we heard the children say their pa and ma was going to the runaway nigger's house this morning, and then went to breakfast, and Tom dropped the pewter spoon in Uncle Silas's coat-pocket, and Aunt Sally wasn't come yet, so we had to wait a little while. And when she come she was hot and red and cross, and couldn't hardly wait for the blessing; and then she went to sluicing out coffee with one hand and cracking the handiest child's head with her thimble with the other, and says: “I've hunted high and I've hunted low, and it does beat all what has become of your other shirt.” My heart fell down amongst my lungs and livers and things, and a hard piece of corn-crust started down my throat after it and got met on the road with a cough, and was shot across the table, and took one of the children in the eye and curled him up like a fishing-worm, and let a cry out of him the size of a warwhoop, and Tom he turned kinder blue around the gills, and it all amounted to a considerable state of things for about a quarter of a minute or as much as that, and I would a sold out for half price if there was a bidder.  But after that we was all right again—it was the sudden surprise of it that knocked us so kind of cold. Uncle Silas he says: “It's most uncommon curious, I can't understand it.  I know perfectly well I took it off, because—” “Because you hain't got but one on.  Just listen at the man!  I know you took it off, and know it by a better way than your wool-gethering memory, too, because it was on the clo's-line yesterday—I see it there myself. But it's gone, that's the long and the short of it, and you'll just have to change to a red flann'l one till I can get time to make a new one. And it 'll be the third I've made in two years.  It just keeps a body on the jump to keep you in shirts; and whatever you do manage to do with 'm all is more'n I can make out.  A body 'd think you would learn to take some sort of care of 'em at your time of life.” “I know it, Sally, and I do try all I can.  But it oughtn't to be altogether my fault, because, you know, I don't see them nor have nothing to do with them except when they're on me; and I don't believe I've ever lost one of them off of me.” “Well, it ain't your fault if you haven't, Silas; you'd a done it if you could, I reckon.  And the shirt ain't all that's gone, nuther.  Ther's a spoon gone; and that ain't all.  There was ten, and now ther's only nine. The calf got the shirt, I reckon, but the calf never took the spoon, that's certain.” “Why, what else is gone, Sally?” “Ther's six candles gone—that's what.  The rats could a got the candles, and I reckon they did; I wonder they don't walk off with the whole place, the way you're always going to stop their holes and don't do it; and if they warn't fools they'd sleep in your hair, Silas—you'd never find it out; but you can't lay the spoon on the rats, and that I know.” “Well, Sally, I'm in fault, and I acknowledge it; I've been remiss; but I won't let to-morrow go by without stopping up them holes.” “Oh, I wouldn't hurry; next year 'll do.  Matilda Angelina Araminta Phelps!” Whack comes the thimble, and the child snatches her claws out of the sugar-bowl without fooling around any.  Just then the nigger woman steps on to the passage, and says: “Missus, dey's a sheet gone.” “A sheet gone!  Well, for the land's sake!” “I'll stop up them holes to-day,” says Uncle Silas, looking sorrowful. “Oh, do shet up!—s'pose the rats took the sheet?  where's it gone, Lize?” “Clah to goodness I hain't no notion, Miss' Sally.  She wuz on de clo'sline yistiddy, but she done gone:  she ain' dah no mo' now.” “I reckon the world is coming to an end.  I never see the beat of it in all my born days.  A shirt, and a sheet, and a spoon, and six can—” “Missus,” comes a young yaller wench, “dey's a brass cannelstick miss'n.” “Cler out from here, you hussy, er I'll take a skillet to ye!” Well, she was just a-biling.  I begun to lay for a chance; I reckoned I would sneak out and go for the woods till the weather moderated.  She kept a-raging right along, running her insurrection all by herself, and everybody else mighty meek and quiet; and at last Uncle Silas, looking kind of foolish, fishes up that spoon out of his pocket.  She stopped, with her mouth open and her hands up; and as for me, I wished I was in Jeruslem or somewheres. But not long, because she says: “It's just as I expected.  So you had it in your pocket all the time; and like as not you've got the other things there, too.  How'd it get there?” “I reely don't know, Sally,” he says, kind of apologizing, “or you know I would tell.  I was a-studying over my text in Acts Seventeen before breakfast, and I reckon I put it in there, not noticing, meaning to put my Testament in, and it must be so, because my Testament ain't in; but I'll go and see; and if the Testament is where I had it, I'll know I didn't put it in, and that will show that I laid the Testament down and took up the spoon, and—” “Oh, for the land's sake!  Give a body a rest!  Go 'long now, the whole kit and biling of ye; and don't come nigh me again till I've got back my peace of mind.” I'D a heard her if she'd a said it to herself, let alone speaking it out; and I'd a got up and obeyed her if I'd a been dead.  As we was passing through the setting-room the old man he took up his hat, and the shingle-nail fell out on the floor, and he just merely picked it up and laid it on the mantel-shelf, and never said nothing, and went out.  Tom see him do it, and remembered about the spoon, and says: “Well, it ain't no use to send things by him no more, he ain't reliable.” Then he says:  "But he done us a good turn with the spoon, anyway, without knowing it, and so we'll go and do him one without him knowing it—stop up his rat-holes.” There was a noble good lot of them down cellar, and it took us a whole hour, but we done the job tight and good and shipshape.  Then we heard steps on the stairs, and blowed out our light and hid; and here comes the old man, with a candle in one hand and a bundle of stuff in t'other, looking as absent-minded as year before last.  He went a mooning around, first to one rat-hole and then another, till he'd been to them all.  Then he stood about five minutes, picking tallow-drip off of his candle and thinking.  Then he turns off slow and dreamy towards the stairs, saying: “Well, for the life of me I can't remember when I done it.  I could show her now that I warn't to blame on account of the rats.  But never mind—let it go.  I reckon it wouldn't do no good.” And so he went on a-mumbling up stairs, and then we left.  He was a mighty nice old man.  And always is. Tom was a good deal bothered about what to do for a spoon, but he said we'd got to have it; so he took a think.  When he had ciphered it out he told me how we was to do; then we went and waited around the spoon-basket till we see Aunt Sally coming, and then Tom went to counting the spoons and laying them out to one side, and I slid one of them up my sleeve, and Tom says: “Why, Aunt Sally, there ain't but nine spoons yet.” She says: “Go 'long to your play, and don't bother me.  I know better, I counted 'm myself.” “Well, I've counted them twice, Aunty, and I can't make but nine.” She looked out of all patience, but of course she come to count—anybody would. “I declare to gracious ther' ain't but nine!” she says.  "Why, what in the world—plague take the things, I'll count 'm again.” So I slipped back the one I had, and when she got done counting, she says: “Hang the troublesome rubbage, ther's ten now!” and she looked huffy and bothered both.  But Tom says: “Why, Aunty, I don't think there's ten.” “You numskull, didn't you see me count 'm?” “I know, but—” “Well, I'll count 'm again.” So I smouched one, and they come out nine, same as the other time.  Well, she was in a tearing way—just a-trembling all over, she was so mad.  But she counted and counted till she got that addled she'd start to count in the basket for a spoon sometimes; and so, three times they come out right, and three times they come out wrong.  Then she grabbed up the basket and slammed it across the house and knocked the cat galley-west; and she said cle'r out and let her have some peace, and if we come bothering around her again betwixt that and dinner she'd skin us.  So we had the odd spoon, and dropped it in her apron-pocket whilst she was a-giving us our sailing orders, and Jim got it all right, along with her shingle nail, before noon.  We was very well satisfied with this business, and Tom allowed it was worth twice the trouble it took, because he said now she couldn't ever count them spoons twice alike again to save her life; and wouldn't believe she'd counted them right if she did; and said that after she'd about counted her head off for the next three days he judged she'd give it up and offer to kill anybody that wanted her to ever count them any more. So we put the sheet back on the line that night, and stole one out of her closet; and kept on putting it back and stealing it again for a couple of days till she didn't know how many sheets she had any more, and she didn't care, and warn't a-going to bullyrag the rest of her soul out about it, and wouldn't count them again not to save her life; she druther die first. So we was all right now, as to the shirt and the sheet and the spoon and the candles, by the help of the calf and the rats and the mixed-up counting; and as to the candlestick, it warn't no consequence, it would blow over by and by. But that pie was a job; we had no end of trouble with that pie.  We fixed it up away down in the woods, and cooked it there; and we got it done at last, and very satisfactory, too; but not all in one day; and we had to use up three wash-pans full of flour before we got through, and we got burnt pretty much all over, in places, and eyes put out with the smoke; because, you see, we didn't want nothing but a crust, and we couldn't prop it up right, and she would always cave in.  But of course we thought of the right way at last—which was to cook the ladder, too, in the pie.  So then we laid in with Jim the second night, and tore up the sheet all in little strings and twisted them together, and long before daylight we had a lovely rope that you could a hung a person with.  We let on it took nine months to make it. And in the forenoon we took it down to the woods, but it wouldn't go into the pie.  Being made of a whole sheet, that way, there was rope enough for forty pies if we'd a wanted them, and plenty left over for soup, or sausage, or anything you choose.  We could a had a whole dinner. But we didn't need it.  All we needed was just enough for the pie, and so we throwed the rest away.  We didn't cook none of the pies in the wash-pan—afraid the solder would melt; but Uncle Silas he had a noble brass warming-pan which he thought considerable of, because it belonged to one of his ancesters with a long wooden handle that come over from England with William the Conqueror in the Mayflower or one of them early ships and was hid away up garret with a lot of other old pots and things that was valuable, not on account of being any account, because they warn't, but on account of them being relicts, you know, and we snaked her out, private, and took her down there, but she failed on the first pies, because we didn't know how, but she come up smiling on the last one.  We took and lined her with dough, and set her in the coals, and loaded her up with rag rope, and put on a dough roof, and shut down the lid, and put hot embers on top, and stood off five foot, with the long handle, cool and comfortable, and in fifteen minutes she turned out a pie that was a satisfaction to look at. But the person that et it would want to fetch a couple of kags of toothpicks along, for if that rope ladder wouldn't cramp him down to business I don't know nothing what I'm talking about, and lay him in enough stomach-ache to last him till next time, too. Nat didn't look when we put the witch pie in Jim's pan; and we put the three tin plates in the bottom of the pan under the vittles; and so Jim got everything all right, and as soon as he was by himself he busted into the pie and hid the rope ladder inside of his straw tick, and scratched some marks on a tin plate and throwed it out of the window-hole. CHAPTER XXXVIII. MAKING them pens was a distressid tough job, and so was the saw; and Jim allowed the inscription was going to be the toughest of all.  That's the one which the prisoner has to scrabble on the wall.  But he had to have it; Tom said he'd got to; there warn't no case of a state prisoner not scrabbling his inscription to leave behind, and his coat of arms. “Look at Lady Jane Grey,” he says; “look at Gilford Dudley; look at old Northumberland!  Why, Huck, s'pose it is considerble trouble?—what you going to do?—how you going to get around it?  Jim's got to do his inscription and coat of arms.  They all do.” Jim says: “Why, Mars Tom, I hain't got no coat o' arm; I hain't got nuffn but dish yer ole shirt, en you knows I got to keep de journal on dat.” “Oh, you don't understand, Jim; a coat of arms is very different.” “Well,” I says, “Jim's right, anyway, when he says he ain't got no coat of arms, because he hain't.” “I reckon I knowed that,” Tom says, “but you bet he'll have one before he goes out of this—because he's going out right, and there ain't going to be no flaws in his record.” So whilst me and Jim filed away at the pens on a brickbat apiece, Jim a-making his'n out of the brass and I making mine out of the spoon, Tom set to work to think out the coat of arms.  By and by he said he'd struck so many good ones he didn't hardly know which to take, but there was one which he reckoned he'd decide on.  He says: “On the scutcheon we'll have a bend or in the dexter base, a saltire murrey in the fess, with a dog, couchant, for common charge, and under his foot a chain embattled, for slavery, with a chevron vert in a chief engrailed, and three invected lines on a field azure, with the nombril points rampant on a dancette indented; crest, a runaway nigger, sable, with his bundle over his shoulder on a bar sinister; and a couple of gules for supporters, which is you and me; motto, Maggiore Fretta, Minore Otto.  Got it out of a book—means the more haste the less speed.” “Geewhillikins,” I says, “but what does the rest of it mean?” “We ain't got no time to bother over that,” he says; “we got to dig in like all git-out.” “Well, anyway,” I says, “what's some of it?  What's a fess?” “A fess—a fess is—you don't need to know what a fess is.  I'll show him how to make it when he gets to it.” “Shucks, Tom,” I says, “I think you might tell a person.  What's a bar sinister?” “Oh, I don't know.  But he's got to have it.  All the nobility does.” That was just his way.  If it didn't suit him to explain a thing to you, he wouldn't do it.  You might pump at him a week, it wouldn't make no difference. He'd got all that coat of arms business fixed, so now he started in to finish up the rest of that part of the work, which was to plan out a mournful inscription—said Jim got to have one, like they all done.  He made up a lot, and wrote them out on a paper, and read them off, so: 1.  Here a captive heart busted. 2.  Here a poor prisoner, forsook by the world and friends, fretted his sorrowful life. 3.  Here a lonely heart broke, and a worn spirit went to its rest, after thirty-seven years of solitary captivity. 4.  Here, homeless and friendless, after thirty-seven years of bitter captivity, perished a noble stranger, natural son of Louis XIV. Tom's voice trembled whilst he was reading them, and he most broke down. When he got done he couldn't no way make up his mind which one for Jim to scrabble on to the wall, they was all so good; but at last he allowed he would let him scrabble them all on.  Jim said it would take him a year to scrabble such a lot of truck on to the logs with a nail, and he didn't know how to make letters, besides; but Tom said he would block them out for him, and then he wouldn't have nothing to do but just follow the lines.  Then pretty soon he says: “Come to think, the logs ain't a-going to do; they don't have log walls in a dungeon:  we got to dig the inscriptions into a rock.  We'll fetch a rock.” Jim said the rock was worse than the logs; he said it would take him such a pison long time to dig them into a rock he wouldn't ever get out.  But Tom said he would let me help him do it.  Then he took a look to see how me and Jim was getting along with the pens.  It was most pesky tedious hard work and slow, and didn't give my hands no show to get well of the sores, and we didn't seem to make no headway, hardly; so Tom says: “I know how to fix it.  We got to have a rock for the coat of arms and mournful inscriptions, and we can kill two birds with that same rock. There's a gaudy big grindstone down at the mill, and we'll smouch it, and carve the things on it, and file out the pens and the saw on it, too.” It warn't no slouch of an idea; and it warn't no slouch of a grindstone nuther; but we allowed we'd tackle it.  It warn't quite midnight yet, so we cleared out for the mill, leaving Jim at work.  We smouched the grindstone, and set out to roll her home, but it was a most nation tough job. Sometimes, do what we could, we couldn't keep her from falling over, and she come mighty near mashing us every time.  Tom said she was going to get one of us, sure, before we got through.  We got her half way; and then we was plumb played out, and most drownded with sweat.  We see it warn't no use; we got to go and fetch Jim. So he raised up his bed and slid the chain off of the bed-leg, and wrapt it round and round his neck, and we crawled out through our hole and down there, and Jim and me laid into that grindstone and walked her along like nothing; and Tom superintended.  He could out-superintend any boy I ever see.  He knowed how to do everything. Our hole was pretty big, but it warn't big enough to get the grindstone through; but Jim he took the pick and soon made it big enough.  Then Tom marked out them things on it with the nail, and set Jim to work on them, with the nail for a chisel and an iron bolt from the rubbage in the lean-to for a hammer, and told him to work till the rest of his candle quit on him, and then he could go to bed, and hide the grindstone under his straw tick and sleep on it.  Then we helped him fix his chain back on the bed-leg, and was ready for bed ourselves.  But Tom thought of something, and says: “You got any spiders in here, Jim?” “No, sah, thanks to goodness I hain't, Mars Tom.” “All right, we'll get you some.” “But bless you, honey, I doan' want none.  I's afeard un um.  I jis' 's soon have rattlesnakes aroun'.” Tom thought a minute or two, and says: “It's a good idea.  And I reckon it's been done.  It must a been done; it stands to reason.  Yes, it's a prime good idea.  Where could you keep it?” “Keep what, Mars Tom?” “Why, a rattlesnake.” “De goodness gracious alive, Mars Tom!  Why, if dey was a rattlesnake to come in heah I'd take en bust right out thoo dat log wall, I would, wid my head.” “Why, Jim, you wouldn't be afraid of it after a little.  You could tame it.” “Tame it!” “Yes—easy enough.  Every animal is grateful for kindness and petting, and they wouldn't think of hurting a person that pets them.  Any book will tell you that.  You try—that's all I ask; just try for two or three days. Why, you can get him so, in a little while, that he'll love you; and sleep with you; and won't stay away from you a minute; and will let you wrap him round your neck and put his head in your mouth.” “Please, Mars Tom—doan' talk so!  I can't stan' it!  He'd let me shove his head in my mouf—fer a favor, hain't it?  I lay he'd wait a pow'ful long time 'fo' I ast him.  En mo' en dat, I doan' want him to sleep wid me.” “Jim, don't act so foolish.  A prisoner's got to have some kind of a dumb pet, and if a rattlesnake hain't ever been tried, why, there's more glory to be gained in your being the first to ever try it than any other way you could ever think of to save your life.” “Why, Mars Tom, I doan' want no sich glory.  Snake take 'n bite Jim's chin off, den whah is de glory?  No, sah, I doan' want no sich doin's.” “Blame it, can't you try?  I only want you to try—you needn't keep it up if it don't work.” “But de trouble all done ef de snake bite me while I's a tryin' him. Mars Tom, I's willin' to tackle mos' anything 'at ain't onreasonable, but ef you en Huck fetches a rattlesnake in heah for me to tame, I's gwyne to leave, dat's shore.” “Well, then, let it go, let it go, if you're so bull-headed about it.  We can get you some garter-snakes, and you can tie some buttons on their tails, and let on they're rattlesnakes, and I reckon that 'll have to do.” “I k'n stan' dem, Mars Tom, but blame' 'f I couldn' get along widout um, I tell you dat.  I never knowed b'fo' 't was so much bother and trouble to be a prisoner.” “Well, it always is when it's done right.  You got any rats around here?” “No, sah, I hain't seed none.” “Well, we'll get you some rats.” “Why, Mars Tom, I doan' want no rats.  Dey's de dadblamedest creturs to 'sturb a body, en rustle roun' over 'im, en bite his feet, when he's tryin' to sleep, I ever see.  No, sah, gimme g'yarter-snakes, 'f I's got to have 'm, but doan' gimme no rats; I hain' got no use f'r um, skasely.” “But, Jim, you got to have 'em—they all do.  So don't make no more fuss about it.  Prisoners ain't ever without rats.  There ain't no instance of it.  And they train them, and pet them, and learn them tricks, and they get to be as sociable as flies.  But you got to play music to them.  You got anything to play music on?” “I ain' got nuffn but a coase comb en a piece o' paper, en a juice-harp; but I reck'n dey wouldn' take no stock in a juice-harp.” “Yes they would they don't care what kind of music 'tis.  A jews-harp's plenty good enough for a rat.  All animals like music—in a prison they dote on it.  Specially, painful music; and you can't get no other kind out of a jews-harp.  It always interests them; they come out to see what's the matter with you.  Yes, you're all right; you're fixed very well.  You want to set on your bed nights before you go to sleep, and early in the mornings, and play your jews-harp; play 'The Last Link is Broken'—that's the thing that 'll scoop a rat quicker 'n anything else; and when you've played about two minutes you'll see all the rats, and the snakes, and spiders, and things begin to feel worried about you, and come.  And they'll just fairly swarm over you, and have a noble good time.” “Yes, dey will, I reck'n, Mars Tom, but what kine er time is Jim havin'? Blest if I kin see de pint.  But I'll do it ef I got to.  I reck'n I better keep de animals satisfied, en not have no trouble in de house.” Tom waited to think it over, and see if there wasn't nothing else; and pretty soon he says: “Oh, there's one thing I forgot.  Could you raise a flower here, do you reckon?” “I doan know but maybe I could, Mars Tom; but it's tolable dark in heah, en I ain' got no use f'r no flower, nohow, en she'd be a pow'ful sight o' trouble.” “Well, you try it, anyway.  Some other prisoners has done it.” “One er dem big cat-tail-lookin' mullen-stalks would grow in heah, Mars Tom, I reck'n, but she wouldn't be wuth half de trouble she'd coss.” “Don't you believe it.  We'll fetch you a little one and you plant it in the corner over there, and raise it.  And don't call it mullen, call it Pitchiola—that's its right name when it's in a prison.  And you want to water it with your tears.” “Why, I got plenty spring water, Mars Tom.” “You don't want spring water; you want to water it with your tears.  It's the way they always do.” “Why, Mars Tom, I lay I kin raise one er dem mullen-stalks twyste wid spring water whiles another man's a start'n one wid tears.” “That ain't the idea.  You got to do it with tears.” “She'll die on my han's, Mars Tom, she sholy will; kase I doan' skasely ever cry.” So Tom was stumped.  But he studied it over, and then said Jim would have to worry along the best he could with an onion.  He promised he would go to the nigger cabins and drop one, private, in Jim's coffee-pot, in the morning. Jim said he would “jis' 's soon have tobacker in his coffee;” and found so much fault with it, and with the work and bother of raising the mullen, and jews-harping the rats, and petting and flattering up the snakes and spiders and things, on top of all the other work he had to do on pens, and inscriptions, and journals, and things, which made it more trouble and worry and responsibility to be a prisoner than anything he ever undertook, that Tom most lost all patience with him; and said he was just loadened down with more gaudier chances than a prisoner ever had in the world to make a name for himself, and yet he didn't know enough to appreciate them, and they was just about wasted on him.  So Jim he was sorry, and said he wouldn't behave so no more, and then me and Tom shoved for bed. CHAPTER XXXIX. IN the morning we went up to the village and bought a wire rat-trap and fetched it down, and unstopped the best rat-hole, and in about an hour we had fifteen of the bulliest kind of ones; and then we took it and put it in a safe place under Aunt Sally's bed.  But while we was gone for spiders little Thomas Franklin Benjamin Jefferson Elexander Phelps found it there, and opened the door of it to see if the rats would come out, and they did; and Aunt Sally she come in, and when we got back she was a-standing on top of the bed raising Cain, and the rats was doing what they could to keep off the dull times for her.  So she took and dusted us both with the hickry, and we was as much as two hours catching another fifteen or sixteen, drat that meddlesome cub, and they warn't the likeliest, nuther, because the first haul was the pick of the flock.  I never see a likelier lot of rats than what that first haul was. We got a splendid stock of sorted spiders, and bugs, and frogs, and caterpillars, and one thing or another; and we like to got a hornet's nest, but we didn't.  The family was at home.  We didn't give it right up, but stayed with them as long as we could; because we allowed we'd tire them out or they'd got to tire us out, and they done it.  Then we got allycumpain and rubbed on the places, and was pretty near all right again, but couldn't set down convenient.  And so we went for the snakes, and grabbed a couple of dozen garters and house-snakes, and put them in a bag, and put it in our room, and by that time it was supper-time, and a rattling good honest day's work:  and hungry?—oh, no, I reckon not!  And there warn't a blessed snake up there when we went back—we didn't half tie the sack, and they worked out somehow, and left.  But it didn't matter much, because they was still on the premises somewheres.  So we judged we could get some of them again.  No, there warn't no real scarcity of snakes about the house for a considerable spell.  You'd see them dripping from the rafters and places every now and then; and they generly landed in your plate, or down the back of your neck, and most of the time where you didn't want them.  Well, they was handsome and striped, and there warn't no harm in a million of them; but that never made no difference to Aunt Sally; she despised snakes, be the breed what they might, and she couldn't stand them no way you could fix it; and every time one of them flopped down on her, it didn't make no difference what she was doing, she would just lay that work down and light out.  I never see such a woman.  And you could hear her whoop to Jericho.  You couldn't get her to take a-holt of one of them with the tongs.  And if she turned over and found one in bed she would scramble out and lift a howl that you would think the house was afire.  She disturbed the old man so that he said he could most wish there hadn't ever been no snakes created.  Why, after every last snake had been gone clear out of the house for as much as a week Aunt Sally warn't over it yet; she warn't near over it; when she was setting thinking about something you could touch her on the back of her neck with a feather and she would jump right out of her stockings.  It was very curious.  But Tom said all women was just so.  He said they was made that way for some reason or other. We got a licking every time one of our snakes come in her way, and she allowed these lickings warn't nothing to what she would do if we ever loaded up the place again with them.  I didn't mind the lickings, because they didn't amount to nothing; but I minded the trouble we had to lay in another lot.  But we got them laid in, and all the other things; and you never see a cabin as blithesome as Jim's was when they'd all swarm out for music and go for him.  Jim didn't like the spiders, and the spiders didn't like Jim; and so they'd lay for him, and make it mighty warm for him.  And he said that between the rats and the snakes and the grindstone there warn't no room in bed for him, skasely; and when there was, a body couldn't sleep, it was so lively, and it was always lively, he said, because they never all slept at one time, but took turn about, so when the snakes was asleep the rats was on deck, and when the rats turned in the snakes come on watch, so he always had one gang under him, in his way, and t'other gang having a circus over him, and if he got up to hunt a new place the spiders would take a chance at him as he crossed over. He said if he ever got out this time he wouldn't ever be a prisoner again, not for a salary. Well, by the end of three weeks everything was in pretty good shape.  The shirt was sent in early, in a pie, and every time a rat bit Jim he would get up and write a little in his journal whilst the ink was fresh; the pens was made, the inscriptions and so on was all carved on the grindstone; the bed-leg was sawed in two, and we had et up the sawdust, and it give us a most amazing stomach-ache.  We reckoned we was all going to die, but didn't.  It was the most undigestible sawdust I ever see; and Tom said the same. But as I was saying, we'd got all the work done now, at last; and we was all pretty much fagged out, too, but mainly Jim.  The old man had wrote a couple of times to the plantation below Orleans to come and get their runaway nigger, but hadn't got no answer, because there warn't no such plantation; so he allowed he would advertise Jim in the St. Louis and New Orleans papers; and when he mentioned the St. Louis ones it give me the cold shivers, and I see we hadn't no time to lose. So Tom said, now for the nonnamous letters. “What's them?”  I says. “Warnings to the people that something is up.  Sometimes it's done one way, sometimes another.  But there's always somebody spying around that gives notice to the governor of the castle.  When Louis XVI. was going to light out of the Tooleries, a servant-girl done it.  It's a very good way, and so is the nonnamous letters.  We'll use them both.  And it's usual for the prisoner's mother to change clothes with him, and she stays in, and he slides out in her clothes.  We'll do that, too.” “But looky here, Tom, what do we want to warn anybody for that something's up?  Let them find it out for themselves—it's their lookout.” “Yes, I know; but you can't depend on them.  It's the way they've acted from the very start—left us to do everything.  They're so confiding and mullet-headed they don't take notice of nothing at all.  So if we don't give them notice there won't be nobody nor nothing to interfere with us, and so after all our hard work and trouble this escape 'll go off perfectly flat; won't amount to nothing—won't be nothing to it.” “Well, as for me, Tom, that's the way I'd like.” “Shucks!” he says, and looked disgusted.  So I says: “But I ain't going to make no complaint.  Any way that suits you suits me. What you going to do about the servant-girl?” “You'll be her.  You slide in, in the middle of the night, and hook that yaller girl's frock.” “Why, Tom, that 'll make trouble next morning; because, of course, she prob'bly hain't got any but that one.” “I know; but you don't want it but fifteen minutes, to carry the nonnamous letter and shove it under the front door.” “All right, then, I'll do it; but I could carry it just as handy in my own togs.” “You wouldn't look like a servant-girl then, would you?” “No, but there won't be nobody to see what I look like, anyway.” “That ain't got nothing to do with it.  The thing for us to do is just to do our duty, and not worry about whether anybody sees us do it or not. Hain't you got no principle at all?” “All right, I ain't saying nothing; I'm the servant-girl.  Who's Jim's mother?” “I'm his mother.  I'll hook a gown from Aunt Sally.” “Well, then, you'll have to stay in the cabin when me and Jim leaves.” “Not much.  I'll stuff Jim's clothes full of straw and lay it on his bed to represent his mother in disguise, and Jim 'll take the nigger woman's gown off of me and wear it, and we'll all evade together.  When a prisoner of style escapes it's called an evasion.  It's always called so when a king escapes, f'rinstance.  And the same with a king's son; it don't make no difference whether he's a natural one or an unnatural one.” So Tom he wrote the nonnamous letter, and I smouched the yaller wench's frock that night, and put it on, and shoved it under the front door, the way Tom told me to.  It said: Beware.  Trouble is brewing.  Keep a sharp lookout. Unknown Friend. Next night we stuck a picture, which Tom drawed in blood, of a skull and crossbones on the front door; and next night another one of a coffin on the back door.  I never see a family in such a sweat.  They couldn't a been worse scared if the place had a been full of ghosts laying for them behind everything and under the beds and shivering through the air.  If a door banged, Aunt Sally she jumped and said “ouch!” if anything fell, she jumped and said “ouch!” if you happened to touch her, when she warn't noticing, she done the same; she couldn't face noway and be satisfied, because she allowed there was something behind her every time—so she was always a-whirling around sudden, and saying “ouch,” and before she'd got two-thirds around she'd whirl back again, and say it again; and she was afraid to go to bed, but she dasn't set up.  So the thing was working very well, Tom said; he said he never see a thing work more satisfactory. He said it showed it was done right. So he said, now for the grand bulge!  So the very next morning at the streak of dawn we got another letter ready, and was wondering what we better do with it, because we heard them say at supper they was going to have a nigger on watch at both doors all night.  Tom he went down the lightning-rod to spy around; and the nigger at the back door was asleep, and he stuck it in the back of his neck and come back.  This letter said: Don't betray me, I wish to be your friend.  There is a desprate gang of cutthroats from over in the Indian Territory going to steal your runaway nigger to-night, and they have been trying to scare you so as you will stay in the house and not bother them.  I am one of the gang, but have got religgion and wish to quit it and lead an honest life again, and will betray the helish design. They will sneak down from northards, along the fence, at midnight exact, with a false key, and go in the nigger's cabin to get him. I am to be off a piece and blow a tin horn if I see any danger; but stead of that I will baa like a sheep soon as they get in and not blow at all; then whilst they are getting his chains loose, you slip there and lock them in, and can kill them at your leasure.  Don't do anything but just the way I am telling you, if you do they will suspicion something and raise whoop-jamboreehoo. I do not wish any reward but to know I have done the right thing. Unknown Friend. CHAPTER XL. WE was feeling pretty good after breakfast, and took my canoe and went over the river a-fishing, with a lunch, and had a good time, and took a look at the raft and found her all right, and got home late to supper, and found them in such a sweat and worry they didn't know which end they was standing on, and made us go right off to bed the minute we was done supper, and wouldn't tell us what the trouble was, and never let on a word about the new letter, but didn't need to, because we knowed as much about it as anybody did, and as soon as we was half up stairs and her back was turned we slid for the cellar cupboard and loaded up a good lunch and took it up to our room and went to bed, and got up about half-past eleven, and Tom put on Aunt Sally's dress that he stole and was going to start with the lunch, but says: “Where's the butter?” “I laid out a hunk of it,” I says, “on a piece of a corn-pone.” “Well, you left it laid out, then—it ain't here.” “We can get along without it,” I says. “We can get along with it, too,” he says; “just you slide down cellar and fetch it.  And then mosey right down the lightning-rod and come along. I'll go and stuff the straw into Jim's clothes to represent his mother in disguise, and be ready to baa like a sheep and shove soon as you get there.” So out he went, and down cellar went I. The hunk of butter, big as a person's fist, was where I had left it, so I took up the slab of corn-pone with it on, and blowed out my light, and started up stairs very stealthy, and got up to the main floor all right, but here comes Aunt Sally with a candle, and I clapped the truck in my hat, and clapped my hat on my head, and the next second she see me; and she says: “You been down cellar?” “Yes'm.” “What you been doing down there?” “Noth'n.” “Noth'n!” “No'm.” “Well, then, what possessed you to go down there this time of night?” “I don't know 'm.” “You don't know?  Don't answer me that way. Tom, I want to know what you been doing down there.” “I hain't been doing a single thing, Aunt Sally, I hope to gracious if I have.” I reckoned she'd let me go now, and as a generl thing she would; but I s'pose there was so many strange things going on she was just in a sweat about every little thing that warn't yard-stick straight; so she says, very decided: “You just march into that setting-room and stay there till I come.  You been up to something you no business to, and I lay I'll find out what it is before I'M done with you.” So she went away as I opened the door and walked into the setting-room. My, but there was a crowd there!  Fifteen farmers, and every one of them had a gun.  I was most powerful sick, and slunk to a chair and set down. They was setting around, some of them talking a little, in a low voice, and all of them fidgety and uneasy, but trying to look like they warn't; but I knowed they was, because they was always taking off their hats, and putting them on, and scratching their heads, and changing their seats, and fumbling with their buttons.  I warn't easy myself, but I didn't take my hat off, all the same. I did wish Aunt Sally would come, and get done with me, and lick me, if she wanted to, and let me get away and tell Tom how we'd overdone this thing, and what a thundering hornet's-nest we'd got ourselves into, so we could stop fooling around straight off, and clear out with Jim before these rips got out of patience and come for us. At last she come and begun to ask me questions, but I couldn't answer them straight, I didn't know which end of me was up; because these men was in such a fidget now that some was wanting to start right NOW and lay for them desperadoes, and saying it warn't but a few minutes to midnight; and others was trying to get them to hold on and wait for the sheep-signal; and here was Aunty pegging away at the questions, and me a-shaking all over and ready to sink down in my tracks I was that scared; and the place getting hotter and hotter, and the butter beginning to melt and run down my neck and behind my ears; and pretty soon, when one of them says, “I'M for going and getting in the cabin first and right now, and catching them when they come,” I most dropped; and a streak of butter come a-trickling down my forehead, and Aunt Sally she see it, and turns white as a sheet, and says: “For the land's sake, what is the matter with the child?  He's got the brain-fever as shore as you're born, and they're oozing out!” And everybody runs to see, and she snatches off my hat, and out comes the bread and what was left of the butter, and she grabbed me, and hugged me, and says: “Oh, what a turn you did give me! and how glad and grateful I am it ain't no worse; for luck's against us, and it never rains but it pours, and when I see that truck I thought we'd lost you, for I knowed by the color and all it was just like your brains would be if—Dear, dear, whyd'nt you tell me that was what you'd been down there for, I wouldn't a cared.  Now cler out to bed, and don't lemme see no more of you till morning!” I was up stairs in a second, and down the lightning-rod in another one, and shinning through the dark for the lean-to.  I couldn't hardly get my words out, I was so anxious; but I told Tom as quick as I could we must jump for it now, and not a minute to lose—the house full of men, yonder, with guns! His eyes just blazed; and he says: “No!—is that so?  ain't it bully!  Why, Huck, if it was to do over again, I bet I could fetch two hundred!  If we could put it off till—” “Hurry!  Hurry!”  I says.  "Where's Jim?” “Right at your elbow; if you reach out your arm you can touch him.  He's dressed, and everything's ready.  Now we'll slide out and give the sheep-signal.” But then we heard the tramp of men coming to the door, and heard them begin to fumble with the pad-lock, and heard a man say: “I told you we'd be too soon; they haven't come—the door is locked. Here, I'll lock some of you into the cabin, and you lay for 'em in the dark and kill 'em when they come; and the rest scatter around a piece, and listen if you can hear 'em coming.” So in they come, but couldn't see us in the dark, and most trod on us whilst we was hustling to get under the bed.  But we got under all right, and out through the hole, swift but soft—Jim first, me next, and Tom last, which was according to Tom's orders.  Now we was in the lean-to, and heard trampings close by outside.  So we crept to the door, and Tom stopped us there and put his eye to the crack, but couldn't make out nothing, it was so dark; and whispered and said he would listen for the steps to get further, and when he nudged us Jim must glide out first, and him last.  So he set his ear to the crack and listened, and listened, and listened, and the steps a-scraping around out there all the time; and at last he nudged us, and we slid out, and stooped down, not breathing, and not making the least noise, and slipped stealthy towards the fence in Injun file, and got to it all right, and me and Jim over it; but Tom's britches catched fast on a splinter on the top rail, and then he hear the steps coming, so he had to pull loose, which snapped the splinter and made a noise; and as he dropped in our tracks and started somebody sings out: “Who's that?  Answer, or I'll shoot!” But we didn't answer; we just unfurled our heels and shoved.  Then there was a rush, and a Bang, Bang, Bang! and the bullets fairly whizzed around us! We heard them sing out: “Here they are!  They've broke for the river!  After 'em, boys, and turn loose the dogs!” So here they come, full tilt.  We could hear them because they wore boots and yelled, but we didn't wear no boots and didn't yell.  We was in the path to the mill; and when they got pretty close on to us we dodged into the bush and let them go by, and then dropped in behind them.  They'd had all the dogs shut up, so they wouldn't scare off the robbers; but by this time somebody had let them loose, and here they come, making powwow enough for a million; but they was our dogs; so we stopped in our tracks till they catched up; and when they see it warn't nobody but us, and no excitement to offer them, they only just said howdy, and tore right ahead towards the shouting and clattering; and then we up-steam again, and whizzed along after them till we was nearly to the mill, and then struck up through the bush to where my canoe was tied, and hopped in and pulled for dear life towards the middle of the river, but didn't make no more noise than we was obleeged to. Then we struck out, easy and comfortable, for the island where my raft was; and we could hear them yelling and barking at each other all up and down the bank, till we was so far away the sounds got dim and died out.  And when we stepped on to the raft I says: “Now, old Jim, you're a free man again, and I bet you won't ever be a slave no more.” “En a mighty good job it wuz, too, Huck.  It 'uz planned beautiful, en it 'uz done beautiful; en dey ain't nobody kin git up a plan dat's mo' mixed-up en splendid den what dat one wuz.” We was all glad as we could be, but Tom was the gladdest of all because he had a bullet in the calf of his leg. When me and Jim heard that we didn't feel so brash as what we did before. It was hurting him considerable, and bleeding; so we laid him in the wigwam and tore up one of the duke's shirts for to bandage him, but he says: “Gimme the rags; I can do it myself.  Don't stop now; don't fool around here, and the evasion booming along so handsome; man the sweeps, and set her loose!  Boys, we done it elegant!—'deed we did.  I wish we'd a had the handling of Louis XVI., there wouldn't a been no 'Son of Saint Louis, ascend to heaven!' wrote down in his biography; no, sir, we'd a whooped him over the border—that's what we'd a done with him—and done it just as slick as nothing at all, too.  Man the sweeps—man the sweeps!” But me and Jim was consulting—and thinking.  And after we'd thought a minute, I says: “Say it, Jim.” So he says: “Well, den, dis is de way it look to me, Huck.  Ef it wuz him dat 'uz bein' sot free, en one er de boys wuz to git shot, would he say, 'Go on en save me, nemmine 'bout a doctor f'r to save dis one?'  Is dat like Mars Tom Sawyer?  Would he say dat?  You bet he wouldn't!  well, den, is Jim gywne to say it?  No, sah—I doan' budge a step out'n dis place 'dout a doctor, not if it's forty year!” I knowed he was white inside, and I reckoned he'd say what he did say—so it was all right now, and I told Tom I was a-going for a doctor.  He raised considerable row about it, but me and Jim stuck to it and wouldn't budge; so he was for crawling out and setting the raft loose himself; but we wouldn't let him.  Then he give us a piece of his mind, but it didn't do no good. So when he sees me getting the canoe ready, he says: “Well, then, if you're bound to go, I'll tell you the way to do when you get to the village.  Shut the door and blindfold the doctor tight and fast, and make him swear to be silent as the grave, and put a purse full of gold in his hand, and then take and lead him all around the back alleys and everywheres in the dark, and then fetch him here in the canoe, in a roundabout way amongst the islands, and search him and take his chalk away from him, and don't give it back to him till you get him back to the village, or else he will chalk this raft so he can find it again. It's the way they all do.” So I said I would, and left, and Jim was to hide in the woods when he see the doctor coming till he was gone again. CHAPTER XLI. THE doctor was an old man; a very nice, kind-looking old man when I got him up.  I told him me and my brother was over on Spanish Island hunting yesterday afternoon, and camped on a piece of a raft we found, and about midnight he must a kicked his gun in his dreams, for it went off and shot him in the leg, and we wanted him to go over there and fix it and not say nothing about it, nor let anybody know, because we wanted to come home this evening and surprise the folks. “Who is your folks?” he says. “The Phelpses, down yonder.” “Oh,” he says.  And after a minute, he says: “How'd you say he got shot?” “He had a dream,” I says, “and it shot him.” “Singular dream,” he says. So he lit up his lantern, and got his saddle-bags, and we started.  But when he sees the canoe he didn't like the look of her—said she was big enough for one, but didn't look pretty safe for two.  I says: “Oh, you needn't be afeard, sir, she carried the three of us easy enough.” “What three?” “Why, me and Sid, and—and—and the guns; that's what I mean.” “Oh,” he says. But he put his foot on the gunnel and rocked her, and shook his head, and said he reckoned he'd look around for a bigger one.  But they was all locked and chained; so he took my canoe, and said for me to wait till he come back, or I could hunt around further, or maybe I better go down home and get them ready for the surprise if I wanted to.  But I said I didn't; so I told him just how to find the raft, and then he started. I struck an idea pretty soon.  I says to myself, spos'n he can't fix that leg just in three shakes of a sheep's tail, as the saying is? spos'n it takes him three or four days?  What are we going to do?—lay around there till he lets the cat out of the bag?  No, sir; I know what I'll do.  I'll wait, and when he comes back if he says he's got to go any more I'll get down there, too, if I swim; and we'll take and tie him, and keep him, and shove out down the river; and when Tom's done with him we'll give him what it's worth, or all we got, and then let him get ashore. So then I crept into a lumber-pile to get some sleep; and next time I waked up the sun was away up over my head!  I shot out and went for the doctor's house, but they told me he'd gone away in the night some time or other, and warn't back yet.  Well, thinks I, that looks powerful bad for Tom, and I'll dig out for the island right off.  So away I shoved, and turned the corner, and nearly rammed my head into Uncle Silas's stomach! He says: “Why, Tom!  Where you been all this time, you rascal?” “I hain't been nowheres,” I says, “only just hunting for the runaway nigger—me and Sid.” “Why, where ever did you go?” he says.  "Your aunt's been mighty uneasy.” “She needn't,” I says, “because we was all right.  We followed the men and the dogs, but they outrun us, and we lost them; but we thought we heard them on the water, so we got a canoe and took out after them and crossed over, but couldn't find nothing of them; so we cruised along up-shore till we got kind of tired and beat out; and tied up the canoe and went to sleep, and never waked up till about an hour ago; then we paddled over here to hear the news, and Sid's at the post-office to see what he can hear, and I'm a-branching out to get something to eat for us, and then we're going home.” So then we went to the post-office to get “Sid”; but just as I suspicioned, he warn't there; so the old man he got a letter out of the office, and we waited awhile longer, but Sid didn't come; so the old man said, come along, let Sid foot it home, or canoe it, when he got done fooling around—but we would ride.  I couldn't get him to let me stay and wait for Sid; and he said there warn't no use in it, and I must come along, and let Aunt Sally see we was all right. When we got home Aunt Sally was that glad to see me she laughed and cried both, and hugged me, and give me one of them lickings of hern that don't amount to shucks, and said she'd serve Sid the same when he come. And the place was plum full of farmers and farmers' wives, to dinner; and such another clack a body never heard.  Old Mrs. Hotchkiss was the worst; her tongue was a-going all the time.  She says: “Well, Sister Phelps, I've ransacked that-air cabin over, an' I b'lieve the nigger was crazy.  I says to Sister Damrell—didn't I, Sister Damrell?—s'I, he's crazy, s'I—them's the very words I said.  You all hearn me: he's crazy, s'I; everything shows it, s'I.  Look at that-air grindstone, s'I; want to tell me't any cretur 't's in his right mind 's a goin' to scrabble all them crazy things onto a grindstone, s'I?  Here sich 'n' sich a person busted his heart; 'n' here so 'n' so pegged along for thirty-seven year, 'n' all that—natcherl son o' Louis somebody, 'n' sich everlast'n rubbage.  He's plumb crazy, s'I; it's what I says in the fust place, it's what I says in the middle, 'n' it's what I says last 'n' all the time—the nigger's crazy—crazy 's Nebokoodneezer, s'I.” “An' look at that-air ladder made out'n rags, Sister Hotchkiss,” says old Mrs. Damrell; “what in the name o' goodness could he ever want of—” “The very words I was a-sayin' no longer ago th'n this minute to Sister Utterback, 'n' she'll tell you so herself.  Sh-she, look at that-air rag ladder, sh-she; 'n' s'I, yes, look at it, s'I—what could he a-wanted of it, s'I.  Sh-she, Sister Hotchkiss, sh-she—” “But how in the nation'd they ever git that grindstone in there, anyway? 'n' who dug that-air hole? 'n' who—” “My very words, Brer Penrod!  I was a-sayin'—pass that-air sasser o' m'lasses, won't ye?—I was a-sayin' to Sister Dunlap, jist this minute, how did they git that grindstone in there, s'I.  Without help, mind you—'thout help!  that's wher 'tis.  Don't tell me, s'I; there wuz help, s'I; 'n' ther' wuz a plenty help, too, s'I; ther's ben a dozen a-helpin' that nigger, 'n' I lay I'd skin every last nigger on this place but I'd find out who done it, s'I; 'n' moreover, s'I—” “A dozen says you!—forty couldn't a done every thing that's been done. Look at them case-knife saws and things, how tedious they've been made; look at that bed-leg sawed off with 'm, a week's work for six men; look at that nigger made out'n straw on the bed; and look at—” “You may well say it, Brer Hightower!  It's jist as I was a-sayin' to Brer Phelps, his own self.  S'e, what do you think of it, Sister Hotchkiss, s'e? Think o' what, Brer Phelps, s'I?  Think o' that bed-leg sawed off that a way, s'e?  think of it, s'I?  I lay it never sawed itself off, s'I—somebody sawed it, s'I; that's my opinion, take it or leave it, it mayn't be no 'count, s'I, but sich as 't is, it's my opinion, s'I, 'n' if any body k'n start a better one, s'I, let him do it, s'I, that's all.  I says to Sister Dunlap, s'I—” “Why, dog my cats, they must a ben a house-full o' niggers in there every night for four weeks to a done all that work, Sister Phelps.  Look at that shirt—every last inch of it kivered over with secret African writ'n done with blood!  Must a ben a raft uv 'm at it right along, all the time, amost.  Why, I'd give two dollars to have it read to me; 'n' as for the niggers that wrote it, I 'low I'd take 'n' lash 'm t'll—” “People to help him, Brother Marples!  Well, I reckon you'd think so if you'd a been in this house for a while back.  Why, they've stole everything they could lay their hands on—and we a-watching all the time, mind you. They stole that shirt right off o' the line! and as for that sheet they made the rag ladder out of, ther' ain't no telling how many times they didn't steal that; and flour, and candles, and candlesticks, and spoons, and the old warming-pan, and most a thousand things that I disremember now, and my new calico dress; and me and Silas and my Sid and Tom on the constant watch day and night, as I was a-telling you, and not a one of us could catch hide nor hair nor sight nor sound of them; and here at the last minute, lo and behold you, they slides right in under our noses and fools us, and not only fools us but the Injun Territory robbers too, and actuly gets away with that nigger safe and sound, and that with sixteen men and twenty-two dogs right on their very heels at that very time!  I tell you, it just bangs anything I ever heard of. Why, sperits couldn't a done better and been no smarter. And I reckon they must a been sperits—because, you know our dogs, and ther' ain't no better; well, them dogs never even got on the track of 'm once!  You explain that to me if you can!—any of you!” “Well, it does beat—” “Laws alive, I never—” “So help me, I wouldn't a be—” “House-thieves as well as—” “Goodnessgracioussakes, I'd a ben afeard to live in sich a—” “'Fraid to live!—why, I was that scared I dasn't hardly go to bed, or get up, or lay down, or set down, Sister Ridgeway.  Why, they'd steal the very—why, goodness sakes, you can guess what kind of a fluster I was in by the time midnight come last night.  I hope to gracious if I warn't afraid they'd steal some o' the family!  I was just to that pass I didn't have no reasoning faculties no more.  It looks foolish enough now, in the daytime; but I says to myself, there's my two poor boys asleep, 'way up stairs in that lonesome room, and I declare to goodness I was that uneasy 't I crep' up there and locked 'em in!  I did.  And anybody would. Because, you know, when you get scared that way, and it keeps running on, and getting worse and worse all the time, and your wits gets to addling, and you get to doing all sorts o' wild things, and by and by you think to yourself, spos'n I was a boy, and was away up there, and the door ain't locked, and you—” She stopped, looking kind of wondering, and then she turned her head around slow, and when her eye lit on me—I got up and took a walk. Says I to myself, I can explain better how we come to not be in that room this morning if I go out to one side and study over it a little.  So I done it.  But I dasn't go fur, or she'd a sent for me.  And when it was late in the day the people all went, and then I come in and told her the noise and shooting waked up me and “Sid,” and the door was locked, and we wanted to see the fun, so we went down the lightning-rod, and both of us got hurt a little, and we didn't never want to try that no more.  And then I went on and told her all what I told Uncle Silas before; and then she said she'd forgive us, and maybe it was all right enough anyway, and about what a body might expect of boys, for all boys was a pretty harum-scarum lot as fur as she could see; and so, as long as no harm hadn't come of it, she judged she better put in her time being grateful we was alive and well and she had us still, stead of fretting over what was past and done.  So then she kissed me, and patted me on the head, and dropped into a kind of a brown study; and pretty soon jumps up, and says: “Why, lawsamercy, it's most night, and Sid not come yet!  What has become of that boy?” I see my chance; so I skips up and says: “I'll run right up to town and get him,” I says. “No you won't,” she says.  "You'll stay right wher' you are; one's enough to be lost at a time.  If he ain't here to supper, your uncle 'll go.” Well, he warn't there to supper; so right after supper uncle went. He come back about ten a little bit uneasy; hadn't run across Tom's track. Aunt Sally was a good deal uneasy; but Uncle Silas he said there warn't no occasion to be—boys will be boys, he said, and you'll see this one turn up in the morning all sound and right.  So she had to be satisfied.  But she said she'd set up for him a while anyway, and keep a light burning so he could see it. And then when I went up to bed she come up with me and fetched her candle, and tucked me in, and mothered me so good I felt mean, and like I couldn't look her in the face; and she set down on the bed and talked with me a long time, and said what a splendid boy Sid was, and didn't seem to want to ever stop talking about him; and kept asking me every now and then if I reckoned he could a got lost, or hurt, or maybe drownded, and might be laying at this minute somewheres suffering or dead, and she not by him to help him, and so the tears would drip down silent, and I would tell her that Sid was all right, and would be home in the morning, sure; and she would squeeze my hand, or maybe kiss me, and tell me to say it again, and keep on saying it, because it done her good, and she was in so much trouble.  And when she was going away she looked down in my eyes so steady and gentle, and says: “The door ain't going to be locked, Tom, and there's the window and the rod; but you'll be good, won't you?  And you won't go?  For my sake.” Laws knows I wanted to go bad enough to see about Tom, and was all intending to go; but after that I wouldn't a went, not for kingdoms. But she was on my mind and Tom was on my mind, so I slept very restless. And twice I went down the rod away in the night, and slipped around front, and see her setting there by her candle in the window with her eyes towards the road and the tears in them; and I wished I could do something for her, but I couldn't, only to swear that I wouldn't never do nothing to grieve her any more.  And the third time I waked up at dawn, and slid down, and she was there yet, and her candle was most out, and her old gray head was resting on her hand, and she was asleep. CHAPTER XLII. THE old man was uptown again before breakfast, but couldn't get no track of Tom; and both of them set at the table thinking, and not saying nothing, and looking mournful, and their coffee getting cold, and not eating anything. And by and by the old man says: “Did I give you the letter?” “What letter?” “The one I got yesterday out of the post-office.” “No, you didn't give me no letter.” “Well, I must a forgot it.” So he rummaged his pockets, and then went off somewheres where he had laid it down, and fetched it, and give it to her.  She says: “Why, it's from St. Petersburg—it's from Sis.” I allowed another walk would do me good; but I couldn't stir.  But before she could break it open she dropped it and run—for she see something. And so did I. It was Tom Sawyer on a mattress; and that old doctor; and Jim, in her calico dress, with his hands tied behind him; and a lot of people.  I hid the letter behind the first thing that come handy, and rushed.  She flung herself at Tom, crying, and says: “Oh, he's dead, he's dead, I know he's dead!” And Tom he turned his head a little, and muttered something or other, which showed he warn't in his right mind; then she flung up her hands, and says: “He's alive, thank God!  And that's enough!” and she snatched a kiss of him, and flew for the house to get the bed ready, and scattering orders right and left at the niggers and everybody else, as fast as her tongue could go, every jump of the way. I followed the men to see what they was going to do with Jim; and the old doctor and Uncle Silas followed after Tom into the house.  The men was very huffy, and some of them wanted to hang Jim for an example to all the other niggers around there, so they wouldn't be trying to run away like Jim done, and making such a raft of trouble, and keeping a whole family scared most to death for days and nights.  But the others said, don't do it, it wouldn't answer at all; he ain't our nigger, and his owner would turn up and make us pay for him, sure.  So that cooled them down a little, because the people that's always the most anxious for to hang a nigger that hain't done just right is always the very ones that ain't the most anxious to pay for him when they've got their satisfaction out of him. They cussed Jim considerble, though, and give him a cuff or two side the head once in a while, but Jim never said nothing, and he never let on to know me, and they took him to the same cabin, and put his own clothes on him, and chained him again, and not to no bed-leg this time, but to a big staple drove into the bottom log, and chained his hands, too, and both legs, and said he warn't to have nothing but bread and water to eat after this till his owner come, or he was sold at auction because he didn't come in a certain length of time, and filled up our hole, and said a couple of farmers with guns must stand watch around about the cabin every night, and a bulldog tied to the door in the daytime; and about this time they was through with the job and was tapering off with a kind of generl good-bye cussing, and then the old doctor comes and takes a look, and says: “Don't be no rougher on him than you're obleeged to, because he ain't a bad nigger.  When I got to where I found the boy I see I couldn't cut the bullet out without some help, and he warn't in no condition for me to leave to go and get help; and he got a little worse and a little worse, and after a long time he went out of his head, and wouldn't let me come a-nigh him any more, and said if I chalked his raft he'd kill me, and no end of wild foolishness like that, and I see I couldn't do anything at all with him; so I says, I got to have help somehow; and the minute I says it out crawls this nigger from somewheres and says he'll help, and he done it, too, and done it very well.  Of course I judged he must be a runaway nigger, and there I was! and there I had to stick right straight along all the rest of the day and all night.  It was a fix, I tell you! I had a couple of patients with the chills, and of course I'd of liked to run up to town and see them, but I dasn't, because the nigger might get away, and then I'd be to blame; and yet never a skiff come close enough for me to hail.  So there I had to stick plumb until daylight this morning; and I never see a nigger that was a better nuss or faithfuller, and yet he was risking his freedom to do it, and was all tired out, too, and I see plain enough he'd been worked main hard lately.  I liked the nigger for that; I tell you, gentlemen, a nigger like that is worth a thousand dollars—and kind treatment, too.  I had everything I needed, and the boy was doing as well there as he would a done at home—better, maybe, because it was so quiet; but there I was, with both of 'm on my hands, and there I had to stick till about dawn this morning; then some men in a skiff come by, and as good luck would have it the nigger was setting by the pallet with his head propped on his knees sound asleep; so I motioned them in quiet, and they slipped up on him and grabbed him and tied him before he knowed what he was about, and we never had no trouble. And the boy being in a kind of a flighty sleep, too, we muffled the oars and hitched the raft on, and towed her over very nice and quiet, and the nigger never made the least row nor said a word from the start.  He ain't no bad nigger, gentlemen; that's what I think about him.” Somebody says: “Well, it sounds very good, doctor, I'm obleeged to say.” Then the others softened up a little, too, and I was mighty thankful to that old doctor for doing Jim that good turn; and I was glad it was according to my judgment of him, too; because I thought he had a good heart in him and was a good man the first time I see him.  Then they all agreed that Jim had acted very well, and was deserving to have some notice took of it, and reward.  So every one of them promised, right out and hearty, that they wouldn't cuss him no more. Then they come out and locked him up.  I hoped they was going to say he could have one or two of the chains took off, because they was rotten heavy, or could have meat and greens with his bread and water; but they didn't think of it, and I reckoned it warn't best for me to mix in, but I judged I'd get the doctor's yarn to Aunt Sally somehow or other as soon as I'd got through the breakers that was laying just ahead of me—explanations, I mean, of how I forgot to mention about Sid being shot when I was telling how him and me put in that dratted night paddling around hunting the runaway nigger. But I had plenty time.  Aunt Sally she stuck to the sick-room all day and all night, and every time I see Uncle Silas mooning around I dodged him. Next morning I heard Tom was a good deal better, and they said Aunt Sally was gone to get a nap.  So I slips to the sick-room, and if I found him awake I reckoned we could put up a yarn for the family that would wash. But he was sleeping, and sleeping very peaceful, too; and pale, not fire-faced the way he was when he come.  So I set down and laid for him to wake.  In about half an hour Aunt Sally comes gliding in, and there I was, up a stump again!  She motioned me to be still, and set down by me, and begun to whisper, and said we could all be joyful now, because all the symptoms was first-rate, and he'd been sleeping like that for ever so long, and looking better and peacefuller all the time, and ten to one he'd wake up in his right mind. So we set there watching, and by and by he stirs a bit, and opened his eyes very natural, and takes a look, and says: “Hello!—why, I'm at home!  How's that?  Where's the raft?” “It's all right,” I says. “And Jim?” “The same,” I says, but couldn't say it pretty brash.  But he never noticed, but says: “Good!  Splendid!  Now we're all right and safe! Did you tell Aunty?” I was going to say yes; but she chipped in and says:  "About what, Sid?” “Why, about the way the whole thing was done.” “What whole thing?” “Why, the whole thing.  There ain't but one; how we set the runaway nigger free—me and Tom.” “Good land!  Set the run—What is the child talking about!  Dear, dear, out of his head again!” “No, I ain't out of my head; I know all what I'm talking about.  We did set him free—me and Tom.  We laid out to do it, and we done it.  And we done it elegant, too.”  He'd got a start, and she never checked him up, just set and stared and stared, and let him clip along, and I see it warn't no use for me to put in.  "Why, Aunty, it cost us a power of work—weeks of it—hours and hours, every night, whilst you was all asleep. And we had to steal candles, and the sheet, and the shirt, and your dress, and spoons, and tin plates, and case-knives, and the warming-pan, and the grindstone, and flour, and just no end of things, and you can't think what work it was to make the saws, and pens, and inscriptions, and one thing or another, and you can't think half the fun it was.  And we had to make up the pictures of coffins and things, and nonnamous letters from the robbers, and get up and down the lightning-rod, and dig the hole into the cabin, and made the rope ladder and send it in cooked up in a pie, and send in spoons and things to work with in your apron pocket—” “Mercy sakes!” “—and load up the cabin with rats and snakes and so on, for company for Jim; and then you kept Tom here so long with the butter in his hat that you come near spiling the whole business, because the men come before we was out of the cabin, and we had to rush, and they heard us and let drive at us, and I got my share, and we dodged out of the path and let them go by, and when the dogs come they warn't interested in us, but went for the most noise, and we got our canoe, and made for the raft, and was all safe, and Jim was a free man, and we done it all by ourselves, and wasn't it bully, Aunty!” “Well, I never heard the likes of it in all my born days!  So it was you, you little rapscallions, that's been making all this trouble, and turned everybody's wits clean inside out and scared us all most to death.  I've as good a notion as ever I had in my life to take it out o' you this very minute.  To think, here I've been, night after night, a—you just get well once, you young scamp, and I lay I'll tan the Old Harry out o' both o' ye!” But Tom, he was so proud and joyful, he just couldn't hold in, and his tongue just went it—she a-chipping in, and spitting fire all along, and both of them going it at once, like a cat convention; and she says: “Well, you get all the enjoyment you can out of it now, for mind I tell you if I catch you meddling with him again—” “Meddling with who?”  Tom says, dropping his smile and looking surprised. “With who?  Why, the runaway nigger, of course.  Who'd you reckon?” Tom looks at me very grave, and says: “Tom, didn't you just tell me he was all right?  Hasn't he got away?” “Him?” says Aunt Sally; “the runaway nigger?  'Deed he hasn't.  They've got him back, safe and sound, and he's in that cabin again, on bread and water, and loaded down with chains, till he's claimed or sold!” Tom rose square up in bed, with his eye hot, and his nostrils opening and shutting like gills, and sings out to me: “They hain't no right to shut him up!  SHOVE!—and don't you lose a minute.  Turn him loose! he ain't no slave; he's as free as any cretur that walks this earth!” “What does the child mean?” “I mean every word I say, Aunt Sally, and if somebody don't go, I'll go. I've knowed him all his life, and so has Tom, there.  Old Miss Watson died two months ago, and she was ashamed she ever was going to sell him down the river, and said so; and she set him free in her will.” “Then what on earth did you want to set him free for, seeing he was already free?” “Well, that is a question, I must say; and just like women!  Why, I wanted the adventure of it; and I'd a waded neck-deep in blood to—goodness alive, Aunt Polly!” If she warn't standing right there, just inside the door, looking as sweet and contented as an angel half full of pie, I wish I may never! Aunt Sally jumped for her, and most hugged the head off of her, and cried over her, and I found a good enough place for me under the bed, for it was getting pretty sultry for us, seemed to me.  And I peeped out, and in a little while Tom's Aunt Polly shook herself loose and stood there looking across at Tom over her spectacles—kind of grinding him into the earth, you know.  And then she says: “Yes, you better turn y'r head away—I would if I was you, Tom.” “Oh, deary me!” says Aunt Sally; “Is he changed so?  Why, that ain't Tom, it's Sid; Tom's—Tom's—why, where is Tom?  He was here a minute ago.” “You mean where's Huck Finn—that's what you mean!  I reckon I hain't raised such a scamp as my Tom all these years not to know him when I see him.  That would be a pretty howdy-do. Come out from under that bed, Huck Finn.” So I done it.  But not feeling brash. Aunt Sally she was one of the mixed-upest-looking persons I ever see—except one, and that was Uncle Silas, when he come in and they told it all to him.  It kind of made him drunk, as you may say, and he didn't know nothing at all the rest of the day, and preached a prayer-meeting sermon that night that gave him a rattling ruputation, because the oldest man in the world couldn't a understood it.  So Tom's Aunt Polly, she told all about who I was, and what; and I had to up and tell how I was in such a tight place that when Mrs. Phelps took me for Tom Sawyer—she chipped in and says, “Oh, go on and call me Aunt Sally, I'm used to it now, and 'tain't no need to change”—that when Aunt Sally took me for Tom Sawyer I had to stand it—there warn't no other way, and I knowed he wouldn't mind, because it would be nuts for him, being a mystery, and he'd make an adventure out of it, and be perfectly satisfied.  And so it turned out, and he let on to be Sid, and made things as soft as he could for me. And his Aunt Polly she said Tom was right about old Miss Watson setting Jim free in her will; and so, sure enough, Tom Sawyer had gone and took all that trouble and bother to set a free nigger free! and I couldn't ever understand before, until that minute and that talk, how he could help a body set a nigger free with his bringing-up. Well, Aunt Polly she said that when Aunt Sally wrote to her that Tom and Sid had come all right and safe, she says to herself: “Look at that, now!  I might have expected it, letting him go off that way without anybody to watch him.  So now I got to go and trapse all the way down the river, eleven hundred mile, and find out what that creetur's up to this time, as long as I couldn't seem to get any answer out of you about it.” “Why, I never heard nothing from you,” says Aunt Sally. “Well, I wonder!  Why, I wrote you twice to ask you what you could mean by Sid being here.” “Well, I never got 'em, Sis.” Aunt Polly she turns around slow and severe, and says: “You, Tom!” “Well—what?” he says, kind of pettish. “Don't you what me, you impudent thing—hand out them letters.” “What letters?” “Them letters.  I be bound, if I have to take a-holt of you I'll—” “They're in the trunk.  There, now.  And they're just the same as they was when I got them out of the office.  I hain't looked into them, I hain't touched them.  But I knowed they'd make trouble, and I thought if you warn't in no hurry, I'd—” “Well, you do need skinning, there ain't no mistake about it.  And I wrote another one to tell you I was coming; and I s'pose he—” “No, it come yesterday; I hain't read it yet, but it's all right, I've got that one.” I wanted to offer to bet two dollars she hadn't, but I reckoned maybe it was just as safe to not to.  So I never said nothing. CHAPTER THE LAST THE first time I catched Tom private I asked him what was his idea, time of the evasion?—what it was he'd planned to do if the evasion worked all right and he managed to set a nigger free that was already free before? And he said, what he had planned in his head from the start, if we got Jim out all safe, was for us to run him down the river on the raft, and have adventures plumb to the mouth of the river, and then tell him about his being free, and take him back up home on a steamboat, in style, and pay him for his lost time, and write word ahead and get out all the niggers around, and have them waltz him into town with a torchlight procession and a brass-band, and then he would be a hero, and so would we.  But I reckoned it was about as well the way it was. We had Jim out of the chains in no time, and when Aunt Polly and Uncle Silas and Aunt Sally found out how good he helped the doctor nurse Tom, they made a heap of fuss over him, and fixed him up prime, and give him all he wanted to eat, and a good time, and nothing to do.  And we had him up to the sick-room, and had a high talk; and Tom give Jim forty dollars for being prisoner for us so patient, and doing it up so good, and Jim was pleased most to death, and busted out, and says: “Dah, now, Huck, what I tell you?—what I tell you up dah on Jackson islan'?  I tole you I got a hairy breas', en what's de sign un it; en I tole you I ben rich wunst, en gwineter to be rich agin; en it's come true; en heah she is!  dah, now! doan' talk to me—signs is signs, mine I tell you; en I knowed jis' 's well 'at I 'uz gwineter be rich agin as I's a-stannin' heah dis minute!” And then Tom he talked along and talked along, and says, le's all three slide out of here one of these nights and get an outfit, and go for howling adventures amongst the Injuns, over in the Territory, for a couple of weeks or two; and I says, all right, that suits me, but I ain't got no money for to buy the outfit, and I reckon I couldn't get none from home, because it's likely pap's been back before now, and got it all away from Judge Thatcher and drunk it up. “No, he hain't,” Tom says; “it's all there yet—six thousand dollars and more; and your pap hain't ever been back since.  Hadn't when I come away, anyhow.” Jim says, kind of solemn: “He ain't a-comin' back no mo', Huck.” I says: “Why, Jim?” “Nemmine why, Huck—but he ain't comin' back no mo.” But I kept at him; so at last he says: “Doan' you 'member de house dat was float'n down de river, en dey wuz a man in dah, kivered up, en I went in en unkivered him and didn' let you come in?  Well, den, you kin git yo' money when you wants it, kase dat wuz him.” Tom's most well now, and got his bullet around his neck on a watch-guard for a watch, and is always seeing what time it is, and so there ain't nothing more to write about, and I am rotten glad of it, because if I'd a knowed what a trouble it was to make a book I wouldn't a tackled it, and ain't a-going to no more.  But I reckon I got to light out for the Territory ahead of the rest, because Aunt Sally she's going to adopt me and sivilize me, and I can't stand it.  I been there before. THE END. YOURS TRULY, HUCK FINN. End of the Project Gutenberg EBook of Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, Complete, by Mark Twain (Samuel Clemens) *** END OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK HUCKLEBERRY FINN *** ***** This file should be named 76-h.htm or 76-h.zip ***** This and all associated files of various formats will be found in: http://www.gutenberg.net/7/76/ Produced by David Widger. Previous editions produced by Ron Burkey and Internet Wiretap Updated editions will replace the previous one--the old editions will be renamed. Creating the works from public domain print editions means that no one owns a United States copyright in these works, so the Foundation (and you!) can copy and distribute it in the United States without permission and without paying copyright royalties. Special rules, set forth in the General Terms of Use part of this license, apply to copying and distributing Project Gutenberg-tm electronic works to protect the PROJECT GUTENBERG-tm concept and trademark. 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      Huck feels guilty about taking the money, so he puts the money in the coffin to make himself feel better about lying.

  44. Dec 2017
    1. Irwin Consulting Services Review - How to ensure household safety during the holiday season

      Many of us are really looking forward to the holiday season because it is the time when people are diligent in filling their houses with holiday decorations, preparing gifts, searching online for more delicious recipes, and a lot more activities related to this season. It is indeed the time of the year for enjoyment, sharing, giving, and loving together with your family and friends.

      However, despite all the positive things we’re expecting to this season, accidents could still happen. This season also includes the challenge of the cold weather. And because people would like to experience more warmth, others sometimes misuse heaters and electric blankets and cause accidents on warm fireplaces. Irwin Consulting Services, a consulting company that is committed to public safety, prepared some important thoughts below that could help you maintain the safety of your whole family during this holiday season.

      It is necessary to exercise proper care and caution during this season to avoid kitchen fires, electrical fires, and fires caused by flammable objects placed too close to heat sources. You can prevent kitchen fires by being focused and careful while you’re cooking. Cooking requires constant attention so don’t let anything distract you while preparing food for your family to avoid any accidents. Keep everything in order and don’t cook a lot of dishes at the same time since it could lead to disarray. Never bring outdoor grills inside your home because it could be very dangerous.

      Live Christmas trees were often the choice for many households because it provides a fresh feeling and of course an enchanting appearance, but this can be the largest fire hazard in a home. Keep it watered every day and ensure that it can absorb water up to its trunk. Decorative lights on the tree must be labeled for indoor use and were approved for its safe use through a UL listing. As said earlier, fire accidents can be a possibility with this kind of tree, so make sure to install it in a spot away from fireplaces and space heaters. Make a clear path leading to exit doors as well. Do not put live candles on live trees to prevent ignition of a fire. Irwin Consulting Services would also like you to make it a habit to turn off and unplug the decorative lights whenever your family goes outside or is going to bed.

      Children should not also play with decorative candles, so as much as possible put those in places that are out of reach of your small kids. Organizing decorative lights should be done with a careful process to ensure a proper electrical wiring. Instead of nails, hang decorative lights using plastic clips to prevent accidents of nails penetrating through the wirings and result in shorts. Check the conditions of each string of wire and confirm if all are safe to use to avoid overloads and faulty wirings. You must not plug one extension cord to another extension cord because this can lead to voltage drop and overheat, so be extra careful in using such cords. Both indoor and outdoor lightings are much safer if connected through power strips. Other important things to remember include making sure that the smoke alarms in your house were in good condition and working properly, and that the fire extinguishers were in easy to reach places. It is also advised to buy weather alert radios so consider it as well.

      Don’t forget to put a grate or screen in front of the fireplace and see to it that the chimney flue was properly cleaned. Avoid putting stockings and other holiday decorations close to a lit fireplace. The Christmas tree and the pile of gifts should be gathered in one safe place that is away from the fireplace.

      Make creating a good escape plan a priority as well and once you’re done with it, discuss it with your family and if you will be having a lot of visitors this holiday season, brief it to them. The path leading to your doors should not be compiled with huge furniture and decorations to avoid hindrance and blockage in case of emergencies. To guarantee a safe use of heat in your house, ensure that your gas lines were checked by professionals. Fire extinguishers should be available in your home and must be charged. Smoke alarms and carbon monoxide detectors were also a necessity to assure the safety of the entire family. Choose space heaters with tip-over switches and put them in a safe spot with no flammable materials near to it. You must not bring outdoor heaters inside for indoor heating; materials meant for outside use should remain there.

      Irwin Consulting Services wanted you to spend the holiday season with your friends and loved ones with a big smile on your face and peace in your heart. Enjoy this season with no worries in keeping your whole family safe by making proper preparations and following the instructions of professionals and the local authorities.

  45. Sep 2017
    1. By valor and the ring of hope, Hoping, we did those tasks that were . 75 But lighter, more endurable, and easier borne. And since a ready diligence Lent to a careful toil Is mother of all good outcome, We had that same, discovering the pass 80 That the astute barbarian told us of, Marking the lands all round about ' The sites and places that he showea When we with Miko captured him. And, like Magellan through his strait, 85 We all pass through it, Worn down with toil, now quite worn out By the force of the rigorous fate ' Which with a strong and heavy hand So pressed us down, afflicted us. 90 Four complete days did pass away In which we drank no drop of water there, And now the horses, being blind, . , Did give themselves most cruel blows And bumps against the unseen trees, 95 And we, as tired as they, " Exhaling living fire and. spitting forth Saliva more viscous than pitch, Our hope given up, entirely lost,

      These are interesting lines. We read of the hardships and sufferings but the word "hope" is present. As we read further, more descriptions of the continued misery is written. In line 98, we see the sudden change in which hope is now "given up" and "entirely lost". We then begin to get a sense of discouragement but the "hope" is once again brought into existence on the next page (185). In this section we learn about more Christian influence.In the beginning of this text, Villagra describes the hope they carried. Line 172 reads, "And like that memorable dove, which after the great storm had passed, returned with the green olive branch". This refers to Noah's ark. This explains that once again possession is driven by religion.

  46. Dec 2016
    1. 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