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  1. Jan 2025
    1. Unit 1 Socratic Seminar: Is Social Media More Beneficial or Negative to Society? Directions: Read and Annotate the readings by making comments in the document, or the margins if you’re doing it on paper on the 2 articles listed below. Use a physical highlighter or highlighter tool for quotes/ideas you want to explore more and talk about. TYPE YOUR ANSWERS IN BLUE IF DOING THIS DIGITALLY.<br /> Fill out the Summaries at the bottom of Fill out the 6 questions you will use during the Socratic to drive the conversation. Do this part LAST!

      Write out the 6 Questions you will use during the Socratic Seminar. (Do this LAST IN BLUE FONT) 1. How will social media evolve in the future 2.How is social media affecting our outside interactions with others 3. 4. 5. 6.

      Reading #1: Supporters Argue: Social Media Is Beneficial Overall 1a Supporters argue that social networking is a phenomenon that is beneficial overall and has changed the world for the better. Perhaps the greatest measure of social media's success, they contend, is the role it played in ousting undemocratic governments in Tunisia and Egypt. Journalist Peter Beaumont of the British newspaper the Guardian argued in 2011 that "a young woman or a young man with a smartphone" was the "defining" image of the Arab Spring. "The instantaneous nature of how social media communicate self-broadcast ideas, unlimited by publication deadlines and broadcast news slots, explains in part the speed at which these revolutions have unraveled, their almost viral spread across a region," he contended. "It explains, too, the often loose and non-hierarchical organization of the protest movements unconsciously modeled on the networks of the web." 2a Indeed, supporters argue that social media can be extremely useful in encouraging people who would not typically be politically motivated to engage in various issues or causes. While such statements are sometimes derided by critics as "hashtag activism" or "slacktivism," defenders insist that such actions really can make a difference. "What is commonly called slacktivism is not at all about 'slacking activists,'" Harvard University sociology professor Zeynep Tufekci wrote on her blog in 2012. "[R]ather it is about non-activists taking symbolic action—often in spheres traditionally engaged only by activists or professionals (governments, NGOs, international institutions.). Since these so-called 'slacktivists' were never activists to begin with, they are not in dereliction of their activist duties. On the contrary, they are acting, symbolically and in a small way, in a sphere that has traditionally been closed off to 'the masses' in any meaningful fashion." 3a Social media has many other benefits, advocates contend, including the potential to assist during times of catastrophe. During and after the terrorist attacks that rocked Paris, France, in November 2015, supporters note, people took to Facebook, Twitter, and other social media to communicate to loved ones that they were safe, or to offer refuge to people stranded in the city. "The attacks which ravaged the French capital yesterday showed how social media can also play a much more positive role," Forbes contributor Federico Guerrini wrote. "Facebook activated its Safety Check tool…to help people in areas affected by a disaster let their Facebook friends know they are safe. Twitter was also helpful: residents used the hashtag #porteouverte [open doors] to offer shelter to people stranded in the city." Advocates of social networking contend that sites like Facebook and Twitter have brought people closer together. "It has never been easier to make friends than it is right now, mainly thanks to social networking sites," writer Dave Parrack argued on the technology website MakeUseOf.com in 2012. "Just a few decades ago it was pretty tough to connect with people unless you were the overly outgoing type able to make conversation with anyone at a party. The rise of mobile phones helped change this, connecting people in a new way, but then social networks sprang up and the whole idea of friendship changed once more and forever." 4a Supporters maintain that social networking sites increasingly function as a refuge where people can relax with their friends and family. "This is where social media become a powerful social force in the modern sphere," Taso Lagos of the University of Washington wrote in the Seattle Times in 2012. "Because we live in a world of constant anxiety and stress about our lives, our careers, the planet and the fate of our families and friends, trusted sites like Facebook and Twitter are places we turn to relieve this tension and allow us to live and express our humanity." Social media, he argued, are "the community centers of the future." 5a Such sites provide many valuable benefits, defenders argue, including enhancing people's sense of self-worth. The act of taking and posting selfies, they contend, helps people exert control over their self-image and the way they are viewed. "The harshly judged practice of self-picture taking," Huffington Post contributor Molly Fosco wrote in March 2014, "while perhaps excessive or annoying at times, can actually be a really simple way to feel really good about yourself…. Although our selfies might be veiled in narcissism, self-obsession, or boastfulness I think that for many it's a genuine attempt to boost self-esteem. Seeing a close-up picture of your own face and willingly showing it to thousands of people with one click is a form of self-confidence that I don't think should be quickly dismissed." 6a Supporters of social media discount many of the fears typically raised by opponents, noting that it is common for new technology to stir criticism. In the late 19th century, they note, some observers predicted that the telephone would severely damage interpersonal relationships, just as detractors of social media do today. The telephone "was going to bring down our society," Megan Moreno of the University of Wisconsin in Madison told the New York Times in 2012. "Men would be calling women and making lascivious comments, and women would be so vulnerable, and we'd never have civilized conversations again." She added, "When a new technology comes out that is something so important, there is this initial alarmist reaction." Write out a 100-word summary of your thoughts/ideas/opinions of the strengths and weaknesses of the Beneficial Side. (TYPE IN BLUE FONT) Social media supporters argue that it is a good thing for the world and there is proof that it helps the movements like Arab Spring to go on smoothly and global peace talks to be the most constructive. It leads to a lot of people and even calling on them to fight for their cause. It is useful for giving real time help like social media platforms and info at the time of an emergency and also brings people who don't live close to each other, closer to each other. Social media can also lead to the development of good self esteem through many apps. These benefits of the media source have risks which include being heavily dependent on technology, getting wrong info, and the threat of getting into harmful sites with people despite how useful it can be sometimes .

      Reading #2: Opponents Argue: Social Media Is Not Beneficial Overall 1b Opponents of social networking argue that such sites are not beneficial overall and that they gradually erode many essential aspects of communication and socialization. "The shortcomings of social media would not bother me awfully if I did not suspect that Facebook friendship and Twitter chatter are displacing real rapport and real conversation," New York Times commentator Bill Keller argued in 2011. "The things we may be unlearning, tweet by tweet—complexity, acuity, patience, wisdom, intimacy—are things that matter." 2b Indeed, critics contend, the rise of social networking has coincided with a decline in the quality of conversation. "As we ramp up the volume and velocity of online connections, we start to expect faster answers," MIT psychology professor Sherry Turkle wrote in the New York Times in 2012. "To get these, we ask one another simpler questions; we dumb down our communications, even on the most important matters." 3b Opponents argue that social media can contribute to feelings of sadness and loneliness. A study by researchers at the University of Michigan in 2013, they note, found that college-aged users felt worse the more they used Facebook. Because people's Facebook personas are often curated to make their lives seem fun or perfect, critics argue, that browsing social media can contribute to feelings of inadequacy. "When you're on a site like Facebook, you get lots of posts about what people are doing," co-author John Jonides, a cognitive neuroscientist at the Department of Psychology at the University of Michigan, told National Public Radio in 2013. "That sets up a social comparison — you maybe feel your life is not as full and rich as those people you see on Facebook." 4b Social media, critics charge, can lead people to obsess about themselves and their self-image to the point where it can be harmful. People need to look deeper for self-worth, they contend, than achieving "likes" by posting selfies on social media. "[I]if you've just spent half an hour editing a photo by blurring around your eyes with one app, adding eyelashes with another, then changing the colors with a third," Teen Vogue contributor Tiffany Perry wrote in March 2016, "chances are you're giving too much merit to how others perceive you." 5b Other critics claim that the impact of social media on political phenomena like the Arab Spring has been overstated. New Yorker columnist Malcolm Gladwell noted in 2011 that many revolutions took place throughout history before the advent of social networking. "People with a grievance will always find ways to communicate with each other," he wrote. "How they choose to do it is less interesting, in the end, than why they were driven to do it in the first place." 6b Opponents also assert that promoting political or social causes on social media has little real impact other than to make the person making the post feel good about themselves. In 2013, for example, the United Nations Children's Emergency Fund (UNICEF), a U.N. organization that raises money to help and protect children throughout the world, ran an ad campaign with a slogan that read "Like us on Facebook, and we will vaccinate zero children against polio." The point of the campaign, UNICEF explained, was not to disparage "likes" but to encourage more active support, such as contributing money to buy vaccines. "Slacktivism's inherent laziness disqualifies it as a real agent of progress because it does not possess the enthusiasm necessary for change," contributor Elias Tavaras wrote for the Hill in January 2016. "How can a post on Facebook inspire necessary action, especially when sitting down on a comfy computer chair? Indeed, the passion one may feel disappears, with a simple scroll or is drowned out by the other slacktivist posts." 7b Critics charge that social media users are in danger of having their online personas co-opted by corporations eager to collect the information users share and employ it for marketing purposes. Robert Barry of the pop culture website The Quietus argues that social media is turning people into "branded products." "Online businesses which seem to be promising something for nothing—from social networking to file sharing—are really offering you, their audience, as a readymade and fully packaged item for purchase," he argued, "be that by the ghost of advertising's future, or the investor whose faith gives that ghost substance." Write out a 100-word summary of your thoughts/ideas/opinions of the strengths and weaknesses of the Against Side. (TYPE IN BLUE FONT)

    1. Outram (2008, p.2) raises the argument that experimental archaeology does not actually recreate any aspect of the past, as we do not actually know what the past was like and so aspects of any experiment are purely hypothetical.

      I agree with this and am thinking about experimental archaeology in terms of recipes and their recreation. Each and every recipe, even if recorded, won't be the same twice. Even if a recipe is written down with exact measurements and instructions, differences such as quality of ingredients, environmental factors, tools used etc. will always make for subtle variations in the end product.

    1. Other map types include bathymetric maps (Figure 2.4.42.4.4\PageIndex{4}). These are similar to topographic maps for terrestrial locations, with lines connecting areas of equal depth.

      I wonder why that they chose to use the proximity of lines in order to measure the depth of the ocean? It seems to me like there are better ways to convey depth in the ocean, like heat maps where a color gradient represents depths.

  2. inst-fs-iad-prod.inscloudgate.net inst-fs-iad-prod.inscloudgate.net
    1. Given the impact of dominant and subordinate status, it is not surprising thar researchers have found that adolescents of color are more likely co be actively engaged in an exploration of their racial or ethnic identity than are White adolescents. 2

      This highlights the disproportionate burden placed on adolescents of color as they navigate identity development. While their peers may explore interests like hobbies or future careers, they must also confront systemic racism. Understanding this difference can help educators and peers support them better during this critical period.

    1. Systemic racism regularly creates alienated social relations on four different levels: (1) between whites and people of color; (2) between different racial minor-ity groups (i.e., black-Korean conflict since the 1990s); (3) within a racial/ethnic group (e.g., colorism); and (4) within an individual (internalized racism). While one can argue that some types of racism exist in other countries in the absence of whites, racism is a white-crafted system here in the United States.

      Systemic racism has been brought up to emphasizes the unfair treatment different races has undergo and is way common than people think it is.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Therefore, their tool may be useful for stimulating multiple populations using a blue excitatory opsin in neuron A and their tool for red excitation of neuron B… Yet, there are no data presented that showcases their new tool for this purpose

      We agree with the reviewer that in this manuscript we have not experimentally shown the applicability of our system for dual optical stimulation. However, the suppression of blue-light excitation of ZipV/T-IvfChr-expressing neurons strongly suggests this can be used in experiments exciting populations of neurons similarly shown for BiPOLES. We don’t see a theoretical basis where this experiment cannot be done if sufficient cell targeting mechanisms (such as the use of cre-lox or retroAAV) is utilized. We have started several projects pursuing these utilities in the meantime.

      While they do show that red light = excitation and blue light = inhibition, they neither show 1) all-optical on/off modulation of the same cell; nor 2) high-frequency inhibition or excitation (max stim rate of 20hz, which is the same as the BiPOLES paper used for their LC stimulation paradigm; Vierock, as above, Figure 7a-d).

      Regarding point 1, we understand that the reviewer asks if we have optically excited (with red light) and inhibited (with blue light) the same neurons. If so, figure 4B1 (optical excitation of ZipT-IvfCh with red light) and figure 5A (optical inhibition of  ZipT-IvfCh with blue light) represent largely the same set of neurons.

      Regarding point 2, we respectfully disagree with the reviewer’s interpretation of Figure 7a-d) in Vierock et al. As we understand, in this part the authors apply a 20 Hz optical stimulation protocol to the LC neurons in vivo. However, there is no data showing that individual neurons do follow this stimulation protocol. To be clear, we are not saying that BiPOLES cannot drive 20 Hz APs. Very likely it can. It is based on ChrimsonR which is capable of doing so (Klapoetke et al., Figure 2). Although, in this manuscript we have not shown data for optical stimulation above 20Hz, our system is based on vfChrimson, which is known to drive AP of 100Hz and above (Mager et al., figure 2 and 3).  

      they must revise the manuscript to show that their approach is both 1) different in some way when compared to BiPOLES (it is my understanding that they did not do this, as per the supplementary alignment of the BiPOLES sequence and the sequence of the BiPOLES-like construct that they did test) and 2) that the properties that the investigators specifically tailored their construct to have confer some sort of experimental advantage when compared to the existing standard.

      In the latest version of the manuscript, we have compared our ZipV-IvfChr and the BiPOLES construct adapted with vfChrimson (Fig. 2 Suppl 1). The mean photocurrent amplitude of IvfChr in the ZipV-IvfChr construct is ~2.7 x higher than BiPOLES adapted with vfChrimson (14 randomly selected HEK293 cells in each group) (Fig. 2 Suppl 1B). We conducted this experiment in HEK293 cells to ensure accurate voltage-clamping and less biased cell selection. Even adjusting for the smaller photocurrent of vfChrimson vs ChrimsonR, this would still translate to ~1.6 x greater photocurrent with ZipV-IvfChr compared to the original BiPOLES utilizing ChrimsonR. We believe the increased efficiency of excitation is an important aspect of adapting vfChrimson for red-light excitation of neurons.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      (1) In the Introduction or Discussion, the authors could better motivate the need for a red-shifted actuator that lacks blue crosstalk, by giving some specific examples of how the tool could be productively used, e.g. pairing with another blue-shifted excitatory opsin in a different population, or pairing with a GFP-based fluorescent indicator, e.g. GCaMP. The motivation for the current tool is not obvious to non-experts.

      In the discussion, we now provided examples for potential use of the tool. For example, one of the key aspects that can be manipulated by the existing tool is the induction of spike-timing dependent plasticity with 2 wavelengths of light with blue light channelrhodopsin such as oChIEF is used to evoke presynaptic release and ZipT-IvfChr expressed in postsynaptic neuron. In this situation, the rapid termination of inhibitory response is critical so it does not interfere with the induction of LTP or LTD. Another experiment is the alternate control of projection neurons and interneurons in cortical areas, independent controls of neurons of direct and indirect pathways in the striatum to manipulate behavior.

      (2) Simultaneous excitation and inhibition are not the same as non-excitation. The authors mentioned shunting briefly. Another possible issue is changes in osmotic balance. Activation of a Na+ channel and a Cl- channel will lead to net import of NaCl into the cell, possibly changing osmotic pressure. Please discuss.

      We agree with the notion that osmotic, ionic and pH changes in small neuronal structure can be disruptive to the physiology and this is the reason we developed our approach where the fastest channelrhodopsins are used so we can minimize the channel opening time and the flux of ions through the channels when brief light illuminations are applied. Not only the flux of protons, sodium ions and calcium ions are minimized, the flux of chloride should be minimal as well (as the membrane potential should be close to the reversal potential of chloride reversal potential hence low ion flow). Hence our approach should be minimally disruptive compared to most other existing channelrhodopsin-based approaches when short or minimal light pulses were used in conjunction with our tools. This recommendation is included in the updated manuscript .

      (3) The authors showed that in ZipT-IvfChr, orange light drives excitation and blue light does not. But what about simultaneous blue and orange light? Can the blue light overwhelm the effect of the orange light? Since the stated goal is to open the blue part of the spectrum for other applications, one is now worried about "negative" crosstalk. Please discuss and, ideally, characterize this phenomenon.

      We now have performed this experiment. Simultaneous blue (470nm) and red light (635nm) stimulation does not produce AP (Fig .4 Suppl 1A)). This suggests the inhibitory effect of ACR is more efficient than the excitatory effects of IvfChr due to their higher conductance, this re-emphasizes the rapid termination of the ACR effects is critical for minimal disruption of physiological effects in such pairing strategy.

      (3.1) Does the use of the new tool require careful balancing of the expression levels of the ZipT and the IvfChr? Does it require careful balancing of blue and orange light intensities?

      As with any optogenetic tool, the users should validate the efficacy of the tool in their own system. Our tool solely relies on the balanced expression of the 2A system, the efficiency of the two opsins and their degradation of the time-span of expression. These aspects of the tool would be better addressed in future versions of the tools or improvement of the BiPOLES-type of tandem expression in subsequent versions. From the instrumentation side, the light intensity and differential penetration depth requires careful consideration. However, this holds true in most optogenetic and fluorescence imaging-based approaches as well. In the current update of the manuscript, we have included further discussion on these aspects as well.

      (3.2) Also, many opsins show complex and nonlinear responses to dual-wavelength illumination, so each component should be characterized individually under simultaneous blue + orange light.

      We now have performed this experiment (please see our comment to point 3)

      (3.3) I was expecting to see photocurrents at different holding potentials as a function of illumination wavelength for the coexpressed construct (i.e. to see at what wavelength it switches from being excitatory to inhibitory); and also to see I-V curves of the photocurrent at blue and orange wavelengths for the co-expressed constructs (i.e. to see the reversal potential under blue excitation). Overall, the patch clamp and spectroscopic characterization of the individual constructs was stronger than that of the combined constructs.

      We have added the IV curves for the co-expressed construct at different holding potentials for 470nm and 635nm wavelengths. This shows reverse potential for the two wavelengths that are intended for in vitro and in vivo applications. Performing a similar experiment for a variety of wavelengths would not be as valuable, in part, due to the enormous amount of data generated. As we have shown in the study, the response of any channelrhodopsins vary with different light duration and light intensities in addition to the wavelengths and holding potentials. The results for each recorded cell could include stimulation by different wavelengths, stimulation by different illumination intensities, stimulation with different light duration in addition to different holding potentials. Not only would the results be highly variable from cell-to-cell, there will be potentially hundreds or thousands of combinations to be tested per cell (e.g., 5 light intensities @1, 2.5 , 5 , 10 and 20 mW/mm>sup>2</sup>, 8 different wavelengths @ 450nm, 475nm, 500nm, 525nm, 550nm, 575nm, 600nm and 625nm, 7 light durations @ 1ms, 5ms, 10ms, 50ms, 100ms, 500ms and 1s, and , and 6 holding potentials @ -80mV, -70mV, -60mV, -40mV, -20mV and 0mV would result in 1680 stimulation conditions per recorded cell).Technically, the significant lowering of membrane resistance when both IvfChr and ZipACR variants are activated simultaneously would compromise the quality of voltage-clamping even in HEK293 cells with series resistance compensation. We have yet to see any other studies that had included such ambitious electrophysiology experiment for the channelrhodopsin characterization, likely due to the feasibility of such experiment.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      (1) The enhanced vf-Chrimson could potentially be a highlight of the manuscript, serving broader applications. Yet, gauging the overall improvements of ivf-Chrimson in comparison to other Chrimson variants remains intricate due to several reasons. First, photocurrents from ivf-Chrimson seem smaller than those from C-Chrimson (Supplemental Figure 3), and a direct comparison with standard vf-Chrimson is absent.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s positive view of our modified variant. We did not emphasize this particular modification as it was identical to our previous published modification and similar to that previously published by others (CsChrimson and C1Chrimson). In all these cases, improved membrane expression was consistently detected. We believe that expression data and our comparison of C-Chrimson and IvfChr is sufficient to justify the improved membrane expression and function.

      Second, while membrane expression of ivf-Chrimson appears enhanced in provided brightfield recordings, the quantitative analysis would necessitate confocal microscopy and a membrane marker (Supplemental Figure)

      We have now quantified the results with a membrane palmitoylated mCherry using confocal microscopy shown in Fig 2 Suppl1 A. We measured the Pearson Correlation Coefficient of the mCherry with EGFP or Citrine signal for the 6 constructs (vfChrimson, vfChrimson with trafficking sequence, vfChrimson with N-terminal signaling peptide from oChIEF (C-vfChrimson), vfChrimson with trafficking sequence and N-terminal signaling peptide from oChIEF (IvfChr), BiPOLES with EGFP or citrine and vfChrimson) and the results were identical and consistent with the prior results using epifluorescence microscopy.

      (2) Finally, other N-terminal modified Chrimson variants, like CsChrimson by Klapoetke et al. in 2014 and C1Chrimson by Oda et al. in 2018, have been generated. Comparing ivf-Chrimson to vf-CsChrimson or vf-C1Chrimson would be important to evaluate the benefits of the applied N-terminal modification.

      Our development of IvfChrimson is similar to the approach of vf-CsChrimson and identical to that of vf-C1Chrimson and we do not claim these modifications to be unique or superior. However, we have developed our design independently of these other studies and we have more extensive functional comparison and characterization data of our IvfChrimson variant than the other studies.

      (2.1) The action spectra of ZipACR suggest peak absorption of ZipACR WT and its mutant at 525 - 550 nm (Fig. 3). This is even further red-shifted than previously reported by Govorunova et al. Further action spectra recordings differ for all constructs between recordings initiated with blue or red light (Supplementary Fig. 5). This discrepancy is unexpected and should be discussed.

      We thank the reviewer for the comment, this was a mistake in the traces used for the figure. The example traces were the spectral response measured from the 400 nm to 650 nm instead of the 650 nm to 400 nm order shown in the spectral data. This has now been corrected.

      Additionally, the representative photocurrents of Zip(151V) in Fig. 3D1 do not align with the corresponding action spectrum in Fig. 3D2 as they show maximal photocurrents for 400 nm excitation.

      Please, see point above.

      (3) The authors introduce two different bicistronic expression cassettes-ZipT-IvfChR and ZipV-IvfChR-without providing clear guidelines on their conditions of use. Although the authors assert that ZipT is slower and further red-shifted than ZipV, the differences in the data for both ACR mutants are small and the benefits of the different final constructs should be explained.

      In our testing in neurons, ZipT has less ‘escaped’ spikes after the termination of the light pulses in the cells we have tested. However, this is dependent on the membrane properties such as capacitance and resistance of the cells. ZipV has a faster termination time and in some situations may be necessary due to its faster termination time and reduced disruption of physiological processes.

      We have now included this discussion in our updated manuscript.

      (4) The ZipT/V-IvfChRs are designed as bicistronic constructs; yet, disparities in membrane trafficking and protein degradation between the two channels could lead to divergences in blue and red light photoresponses. For future applicants, understanding the extent of expression ratio variations across cells using the presented expression cassettes could be of significance and should be discussed.

      We now have included this discussion in our responses above.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) The Figure 1a mV cartoon traces for chloride are confusing. The chloride currents are depolarizing, not hyperpolarizing. As noted by the authors, these channels largely generate AP blockade through shunting inhibition (division), not hyperpolarization (subtraction).

      The figure has been corrected.

      (2) Figure 2A does not show where the light is applied. Why are some of the bars blue and some of them not filled?

      This has been corrected

      (3) Figure 2C1 does not show where the light is applied. There should be an inset to detail the blue-light-cessation-evoked AP. Also doesn't give the holding potential.

      The requested details are added.

      (4) Figure 2C2 inset is described as showing that "Light-induced currents with 470 nm illumination were initially outward but turned inward immediately following light offset." Is that correct? It looks to me like the current turns inward about half-way through the light pulse and then becomes even stronger after the light turns off. That is also consistent with the CC traces, which appear to show a transition toward depolarization during the light pulse before the AP initiation at light offset.

      Yes, the reviewer's observation is correct. There are blue light-induced outward and inward current peaks at the onset and offset of the light. Accordingly, we have modified the phrasing for Fig. 2C2.

      (5) Figure 3D1 shows that Zip(151V) has a peak current at 400nm, with a steady increase in current from red to blue, however, this is not the case in the summary data in 3D2. It's also not shown in Supplementary Figure 5B. What's going on?

      We apologize for the prior version of the figure associated with the first submission. The example traces from 400nm -> 650 nm were incorrectly included in the figure whereas the 650nm -> 400 nm example traces should be included. This has been corrected.

      (6) Figure 3D1 has no time scale.

      It is now been included

      (7) Figure 3E1 should read "Transduced" and not "Transfected"

      This has been corrected.

      (8) IvfChr fidelity drops off dramatically at 20hz...down to 50% efficiency of generating APs. This is described in the legend as "high frequency". Maybe the cart came before the horse in this figure...as it looks like in panel C that using less light power density improves fidelity in the dual opsin configuration with red light stimulation...why not use that power for the characterization? Did you try any higher frequencies? Or longer pulse widths? This is an important characterization to inform further use of the tool. This shortcoming isn't a cell-intrinsic limitation, as the 470nm stim with IVfChr was 100% successful at both 10hz and 20hz.

      It is known that red but not blue light pulses induce desensitization (optical fatigue) in red-shifted ChR variants. Indeed, one can reinstate the response to red light, by giving violet-blue light pulses (Fig 4. Suppl 2). We think this is the reason that the 470nm stimulation was more effective in inducing AP in cells expressing IvfChR. Higher light intensities induce greater desensitization, but are preferred for faster opening of channels and depolarization of neurons. This can explain why, in some situations, lower light intensities were more effective in producing APs when pulse trains were used. We have recordings from cells firing APs at 40Hz (not included). All these cells had high expression levels of the opsin.   

      (9) Figure 4D: why use 100ms pulse width? How do you know that this isn't causing depol block? Or some of the nefarious concerns that are raised in the discussion, such as "...disrupt[ion of] normal neuronal physiology and signal processing that occurs in millisecond time scale"?

      We used 100ms pulse duration to follow the published protocol that this experiment is based on (Lin et al., 2013, Nature Neuroscience). 

      (10) Figure 4E-bottom: What is the blue peak at light onset? Is the tool driving early activation before silencing?

      There seems to be an early, sharp and brief activation by blue light. We don’t know the definite cause of this, but we speculate this is driven by blue-light activation of ZipACR and not the IvfChr portion of the construct. The reason is that such a sharp rise is absent when only IvfChr is expressed (Fig. 4E, upper panel). Soma-targeted motif tethered to channelrhodopsins is known to result in preferential expression of channels close to soma but does not exclude the expression of channelrhodopsin in axonal and dendritic compartments, especially when animals are allow to recover for long period of time after viral injection. We believe that ZipACR at axonal terminals where the chloride concentration is high can still cause blue-light evoked depolarization and transmitter release. We observed this phenomenon in two mice in their first trial. The data for individual trials for each mouse are included in a supplementary table.

      (11) Figure 4G: Earlier in this same figure (B2, C), 470nm light was more effective at stimulating IvfChr than 635nm light. Is it unexpected that 638nm light would in this in vivo context be more effective at driving IvfChr responses than 450 nm light (at least as reflected by the AUC measurements)? Does this reflect fiber placement and light penetration/scattering?

      The spectral peaks of Chrimson-based variants including vfChrimson are all centered around 600 nm, and at 635 / 638 nm light, the amplitudes of photo-response decline, the channel onset slows, and the channels suffer greater desensitization. In isolated preparations where the light penetration is similar between 635 / 638 nm and 470 nm, 470 nm responses can outperform 635 / 638 nm responses due to its lack of desensitization and higher consistency in its response. This is also a strong reason that we have developed our current approach. In in vivo preparation shown in Fig. 4D-G, the much higher tissue penetration of 638nm light due to reduced absorption and reduced scattering can offset the performance of IvfChr to 450 nm light.  

      (12) In the methods, it is noted that different viral batches appear to generate different levels of neuronal toxicity. If that is the case, how did you differentiate between true differences between constructs vs. differential cell health effects?

      For figure 4D-F (whisker movement), we determined virus toxicity using NeuN staining. In slice recordings, we used the electrophysiological property of the neurons to assess their health. For this manuscript, we had one batch of virus that produced toxicity. We did not include any data from this batch.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      ● Define AUC on first use.

      It is now defined.

      ● Figure 3C2: Please explain how the photocurrents were normalized. As presented, it looks like under strong orange light, the ZipACR has higher photocurrent than the ivfChr.

      This is due to the fact vfChrimson and other Chrimson-based variants do not fully recover in the dark after 590 nm stimulation. We tested IvfChrimson with both reconditioning light pulse of 405 nm and without 405 nm and we can consistently reach a greater ‘maximal’ response from the same cell after 405 nm reconditioning (see Fig. 4 Suppl 2). We therefore normalize the response to the maximal recorded response of the cell often achieved with 10 or 20 mW/mm<sup>2</sup> 590 nm stimulation after 405 nm reconditioning. We understand this can be confusing and have now replaced the light-intensity response in Fig. 3C2 with the one with 405 nm reconditioning which is easier to interpret for the readers.

      ● P. 3: "As expected, blue light pulses induce transient membrane suppression..." Unclear what "suppression" means. Shunting? Hyperpolarization?

      We rephrased this to “As expected, blue light pulses transiently suppress APs…”

      ● P. 3: "illumination at 470 nm and 590 nm wavelengths led to similar amounts of courtship song (110.1 {plus minus} 12.8 and 78.5 {plus minus} 11.6,n = 16-17, respectively)". What are the units of "courtship song"?

      The unit for courtship song is the number of pulses per 10 seconds. This has been clarified in the figure.

      ● P. 5: The quantification of photocurrent in terms of pA/pF/A.U. is non-standard. I understand the impetus to normalize by expression to give something proportional to per-molecule conductance, but a user cares about overall photocurrent. Please also give the real photocurrents, either pA or pA/pF.

      We have provided the real photocurrent in pA or pA/pF where scientifically appropriate. To avoid selection and experimenter’s bias in our data, we did not set criteria for data elimination for cells with specific fluorescence intensity or photocurrent amplitude. Some resulting response can range from vary up to 20 folds from the same construct in many experiments. We do not believe that averaging absolute photocurrent amplitude would be justified due to the imbalance of weighing in the results. We do acknowledge that not selecting or eliminating data points would introduce higher noise in recordings with smaller responses but this is preferable over the selection or experimenter bias that is likely to be introduced otherwise.

      ● Please quote illumination intensities wherever possible.

      ● P. 7: why was the red light crosstalk into Zip(151T) tested at 635 nm instead of 590 nm? Isn't the relevant parameter 590 nm, since that will be used for the excitatory opsin?

      In all our characterizations of the constructs using slice electrophysiology recordings, we used 635nm instead of 590nm. The reason is that compared to 590nm wavelength, at 635nm the photocurrent for Zip(151T) and Zip(151V) is significantly reduced (Fig. 3D1,D2).

      ● P. 10: "we examined the power at which responses to 470 nm and 635 nm lights induce APs in neurons expressing ZipT-IvfChr, ZipV-IvfChr, or IvfChr", but the preceding sentence says you didn't test the ZipT-IvfChr. This is confusing, please clarify.

      The previous paragraph refers to the photocurrent recordings in HEK293 cells where our fast LED based illumination system is limited to 590 nm light, whereas the subsequent paragraph refers to the brain slice neuronal recordings. We have now emphasized the difference of the experiments in the rewrite.

      ● Fig. 4B1, top: Why don't the blue traces return to the same baseline after the stimulus epochs?

      We observed this shift in baseline (~4mV more depolarized) in cells expressing IvfChR (or vfChR) only with blue light stimulation. This was observed in the neurons recorded in the CA1 as well (data not shown). There was no such a change following red light stimulation (Fig. 4B1). Therefore, this should not affect the applicability of our construct. The original paper introducing vfChR did not test the responses of their constructs to blue light. There could be another photocycle state that is activated stronger by 470nm than 590nm and it has a slow off-rate, but this is only a speculation from our side. It must be noted we did not observe such a phenomenon in cells expressing ChrimsonR (Fig. 1 Suppl 1C).

      ● Fig. S3B, right: The two colors are barely distinguishable on the graph. Consider more distinct colors and/or different symbols.

      It has been changed accordingly.

      ● P. 15: "However, we do not recommend the use of orange light pulses, as we observed a significant photocurrent in this wavelength." Not clear what this is referring to. Which construct? Under which circumstances shouldn't one use orange light pulses? Where's the data showing this?

      This is referring to Fig. 3D1,D2 and Figure 4 suppl Fig. 2 which show a normalized ~40-50% photocurrent at 590nm. Now in the text, the reference figures for the data are added.

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      The text does not stand out against the background which may be extremely difficult for someone with vision problems. The text should either be larger or be a different, bolder colour in order to stand out.

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Audio et al. measured cerebral blood volume (CBV) across cortical areas and layers using high-resolution MRI with contrast agents in non-human primates. While the non-invasive CBV MRI methodology is often used to enhance fMRI sensitivity in NHPs, its application for baseline CBV measurement is rare due to the complexities of susceptibility contrast mechanisms. The authors determined the number of large vessels and the areal and laminar variations of CBV in NHP, and compared those with various other metrics.

      Strengths:

      Noninvasive mapping of relative cerebral blood volume is novel for non-human primates. A key finding was the observation of variations in CBV across regions; primary sensory cortices had high CBV, whereas other higher areas had low CBV. The measured CBV values correlated with previously reported neuronal and receptor densities.

      Weaknesses:

      A weakness of this manuscript is that the quantification of CBV with postprocessing approaches to remove susceptibility effects from pial and penetrating vessels is not fully validated, especially on a laminar scale. Further specific comments follow.

      (1) Baseline CBV indices were determined using contrast agent-enhanced MRI (deltaR2*). Although this approach is suitable for areal comparisons, its application at a laminar scale poses challenges due to significant contributions from large vessels including pial vessels. The primary concern is whether large-vessel contributions can be removed from the measured deltaR2* through processing techniques.

      (2) High-resolution MRI with a critical sampling frequency estimated from previous studies (Weber 2008, Zheng 1991) was performed to separate penetrating vessels. However, this approach is still insufficient to accurately identify the number of vessels due to the blooming effects of susceptibility and insufficient spatial resolution. The reported number of penetrating vessels is only applicable to the experimental and processing conditions used in this study, which cannot be generalized.

      (3) Baseline R2* is sensitive to baseline R2, vascular volume, iron content, and susceptibility gradients. Additionally, it is sensitive to imaging parameters; higher spatial resolution tends to result in lower R2* values (closer to the R2 value). Thus, it is difficult to correlate baseline R2* with physiological parameters.

      (4) CBV-weighted deltaR2* is correlated with various other metrics (cytoarchitectural parcellation, myelin/receptor density, cortical thickness, CO, cell-type specificity, etc.). While testing the correlation between deltaR2* and these other metrics may be acceptable as an exploratory analysis, it is challenging for readers to discern a causal relationship between them. A critical question is whether CBV-weighted deltaR2* can provide insights into other metrics in diseased or abnormal brain states.

    2. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Audio et al. measured cerebral blood volume (CBV) across cortical areas and layers using high-resolution MRI with contrast agents in non-human primates. While the non-invasive CBV MRI methodology is often used to enhance fMRI sensitivity in NHPs, its application for baseline CBV measurement is rare due to the complexities of susceptibility contrast mechanisms. The authors determined the number of large vessels and the areal and laminar variations of CBV in NHP and compared those with various other metrics.

      Strengths:

      Non-invasive mapping of relative cerebral blood volume is novel for non-human primates. A key finding was the observation of variations in CBV across regions; primary sensory cortices had high CBV, whereas other higher areas had low CBV. The measured CBV values correlated with previously reported neuronal and receptor densities.

      Weaknesses:

      A weakness of this manuscript is that the quantification of CBV with postprocessing approaches to remove susceptibility effects from pial and penetrating vessels, as well as orientation dependency, is not fully validated, especially on a laminar scale. Further specific comments follow.

      We suspect that the comment regarding the lack of validation on laminar level stems from an error made by the corresponding author in the original bioRxiv submission (v1, May 17th https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2024.05.16.594068v1?versioned=true), where Figure 3 which contains laminar validation was lost during pdf conversion. After submitting to E-Life, this mistake was quickly identified, and a corrected manuscript was re-uploaded to the bioRxiv (v2, June 5th, https://doi.org/10.1101/2024.05.16.594068). Although we informed the eLife staff about the update, it appears that the revised manuscript may not have reached reviewer #1 in time. We sincerely apologize for any confusion or inconvenience this may have caused.

      (1) Baseline CBV indices were determined using contrast agent-enhanced MRI (deltaR2*). Although this approach is suitable for areal comparisons, its application on a laminar scale has not been validated in the literature or in this study. By comparing with histological vascular information of V1, the authors attempted to validate their approach. However, the generalization of their method is questionable. The main issue is whether the large vessel contribution is minimized by processing approaches properly in various cortical areas (such as clusters 1-3 in Figure 5). It would be beneficial to compare deltaR2* with deltaR2 induced by contrast agents in a few selected slices, as deltaR2 is supposed to be sensitive to microvessels, not macrovessels. Please discuss this issue.

      The requested validation is presented in Figure 3F, which compares our deltaR2* measurements with previously invasive estimates of large vessel, capillary and cytochrome oxidase (CO) levels in V1 (Weber et al., 2008; doi.org/10.1093/cercor/bhm259). Our deltaR2* values show a stronger correspondence with microvascularity and CO levels than large vessels. Moreover, Figure 3D illustrates relative differences between V1 and V2, which closely align with the relative vascular volume differences reported by Zheng et al., 1991. It is important to note that Weber and colleagues averaged across V2-V5 due to similar vascularity across these areas. In our material, we also observed similar vascularity in these areas, though V5 (e.g., MT) has slightly denser vascularity, in agreement with reports of CO staining.

      Additionally, we report similar GM/WM vascular density, and high vascular density in primary sensory areas. Unfortunately, available ground-truth data on vascularity does not provide further (general) validation data for laminar vasculature in macaques (such as those in cluster 1-3; Fig. 5). That said, we have provided substantial evidence linking whole-brain vascular measures with variations in neuron (for data distribution, see Supp. Fig. 6F) and receptor densities, which we believe provides strong support for our approach.

      We would like to clarify that the authors do not assert that gradient-echo MRI is exclusively sensitive to microvessels and not macrovessels. This is not stated anywhere in the manuscript. If any sentence appears misleading, please let us know, and we will consider revising it. It is well-established that large vessels contribute to ΔR2* (Ogawa et al., 1993; Boxerman et al., 1995), and this is clearly stated in the manuscript (introduction, methods, results and discussion) and demonstrated in Figures 2A, B, and Supp. Figs. 2, 3, and 4. The primary concern, as the reviewer also noted, is whether we have sufficiently minimized the contribution of large vessels in our parcellated data analysis.

      At the parcellated level, we used the median value to avoid skewness in the data distribution, which primarily arises from large vessels, as regions near these vessels exhibit higher ΔR2*. The skewness of ΔR2* is also visible in Figure 1F, G. While this approach mitigates this large-small vessel issue, it does not entirely resolve it, as a slight linear increase toward the cortical surface remains (in all parcels). This is likely due to our inability to delineate all penetrating vessels as shown in Figure 2E and because contrast agents cumulatively accumulate toward superficial layers where blood originates and returns to the pial surface. To mitigate this issue, we detrended across layers the parcellated profiles, obtaining results similar to the ground-truth measures of vascularity in V1-V5 and CO histology in V1.

      (2) High-resolution MRI with a critical sampling frequency estimated from previous studies (Weber 2008, Zheng 1991) was performed to separate penetrating vessels, which is considered one of the major advancements in this study. However, this approach is still insufficient to accurately identify the number of vessels due to the blooming effects of susceptibility and insufficient spatial resolution. There was no detailed description of the detection criteria. More importantly, the number of observable penetrating vessels is dependent on imaging parameters and the dose of the contrast agent. If imaging slices were obtained in parallel to the cortex with higher in-plane resolution, it would likely improve the detection of penetrating vessels. Using higher-field MRI would further enhance the detection of penetrating vessels. Therefore, the reported value is only applicable to the experimental and processing conditions used in this study. Detailed selection criteria should be mentioned, and all potential pitfalls should be discussed.

      We believe that Figure 2 represents a significant conceptual and data analysis advancement in the field of vascular imaging. To the best of our knowledge, this is the first MRI study attempting to assess vessel density across cortical layers and compare the number of vessels to the known ground-truth. While we do not claim to have achieved a perfect solution (as shown in Figure 2), we offer a robust challenge to the imaging community by introducing this novel benchmarking approach. Our hope is that this conceptual framework will inspire the MR imaging community to tackle this challenge.

      Regarding imaging parameters, TE did not have much effect on our results, with a slight effect observed in the superficial layers due to the presence of large pial vessels (blooming effect; Fig. 2C). This also suggests that similar results could be achieved by changing the contrast agent dose, though there are, of course, CNR requirements and limitations at either end of the spectrum.

      We completely agree with the reviewer that spatial resolution is critical in resolving the arterio-venous networks, and we have dedicated significant attention to this topic in the introduction, results and discussion sections. We also agree with the reviewer that if imaging slices were obtained in parallel to the cortex with higher in-plane resolution, it would improve the detection of vessels. However, while this approach is ideal for counting vessels in a single plane and isolated region of cortex, it is less suited to the surface mapping of vessels, which is the focus of our study.

      Regarding the exclusion of vessels, based on visual comparison of vessels in volume space, Frangi-filter detection of vessels in volume space, and surface detection of vessels, we found no evidence to develop additional exclusion criteria (Supp. Fig. 3). On the contrary, we identified a number of false negatives in both the surface maps and volume maps. Notable exceptions to this rule seemed to occur at premotor areas F2 and F3 (Matelli et al., 1984; Patterns of cytochrome oxidase activity in the frontal agranular cortex of the macaque monkey). In these regions, we observed peculiar “pockets” of signal drop-out in equivolumetric layers 4-5. It is unclear what these signal-voids represent but it is interesting to note that these cortical areas F1-F5 were originally delineated by distinct CO+ positive large cells (Matelli et al., 1984).

      (3) Attempts to obtain pial vascular structures were made (Figure 2). As mentioned in this manuscript, the blooming effect of susceptibility contrasts is problematic. In the MRI community, T1-based Gd contrast agents have been used for mapping large vasculature, which is a better approach for obtaining pial vascular structures. Alternatively, computer tomography with a blood contrast agent can be used for mapping blood vasculature noninvasively. This issue should be discussed.

      We agree with the reviewer that T1-based contrast agents may offer more precise direct localization of large vessels in pial vasculature. However, the primary focus of our study was not on visualizing pial vascular structures, but rather on measuring vascular volume across cortical layers. For this purpose, we opted to use ferumoxytol, which provides superior T2*-contrast and about ten times longer plasma half-life compared to gadolinium. While we anticipated artifacts from the pial network, we developed a novel method to indirectly map these long-distance susceptibility artifacts arising from large vessels onto the cortical surface (Fig. 2A). If the goal would be to specifically visualize pial vessels, we applaud the high-resolution TOF angiography developed for direct vessel visualization (Bollman et al., 2022; https://doi.org/10.7554/eLife.71186)

      Changes in text:

      “4.1 Methodological considerations - vessel density informed MRI

      While the pial vessels can be directly visualized using high-resolution time-of-flight MRI (Bollmann et al., 2022), and computed tomography (Starosolski et al., 2015), imaging of the dense vascularity within the large and highly convoluted primate gray matter presents other formidable challenges. Here, we used a combination of ferumoxytol contrast agent and cortical layer resolution 3D gradient-echo MRI to map cerebrovascular architecture in macaque monkeys. These methods allowed us to indirectly delineate large vessels and indirectly estimate translaminar variations in cortical microvasculature.”

      (4) Since baseline R2* is related to baseline R2, vascular volume, iron content, and susceptibility gradients, it is difficult to correlate it with physiological parameters. Baseline R2* is also sensitive to imaging parameters; higher spatial resolution tends to result in lower R2* values (closer to the R2 value). Therefore, baseline R2* findings need to be emphasized.

      We agree with the reviewer's comment on the complexity of correlating baseline R2* with vasculature, given its sensitivity to multiple factors such as venous oxygenation, iron content, and imaging parameters such as image resolution. While our study focuses on vascular measurements, one could also highlight iron’s role in brain energy metabolism. Deoxygenated blood affects R2*, iron in oligodendrocytes supports myelination and neuronal signaling, and iron’s role in cytochrome c oxidase during electron transport impacts mitochondrial energy production. These metabolic factors collectively affect baseline R2* and link it to vasculature. Though quantitative susceptibility mapping (QSM) could help differentiate these different factors, it is beyond the scope of this study.

      (5) CBV-weighted deltaR2* is correlated with various other metrics (cytoarchitectural parcellation, myelin/receptor density, cortical thickness, CO, cell-type specificity, etc.). While testing the correlation between deltaR2* and these other metrics may be acceptable as an exploratory analysis, it is challenging for readers to discern a causal relationship between them. A critical question is whether CBV-weighted deltaR2* can provide insights into other metrics in diseased or abnormal brain states. If this is the case, then high-resolution deltaR2* will be useful. Please comment on this possibility.

      We agree with the reviewer that correlation deltaR2* with other metrics, such as myelin and cortical thickness, receptors and interneuron types, remains exploratory. Establishing causal relationships requires advanced multivariate analysis across cortical layers, but mapping histological stains to cortical layers is still under development. While this exploratory approach is promising, the ability to apply these insights to diseased or abnormal brain states is not yet clear. Layer-specific analysis of vasculature and function in disease is a future goal, and ongoing work aims to expand this line of inquiry. For now, while high-resolution deltaR2* may indeed offer diagnostic potential, we prefer to refrain from overstating its clinical utility at this stage. We agree that multimodal studies integrating neuroanatomy, function, and vascular metrics will be valuable for deeper insights into brain abnormalities.

      Changes in text:

      “4.3 The vascular network architecture is intricately connected to the neuroanatomical organization within cerebral cortex

      …To comprehensively understand the factors contributing to the vascular organization of the brain, experimental disentanglement through multivariate analysis of laminar cell types and receptor densities is needed (Hayashi et al., 2021, Froudist-Walsh et al., 2023).”

      (6) There is no discussion about the deltaR2* difference across subcortical areas (Figure 1). This finding is intriguing and warrants a thorough discussion in the context of the cortical findings.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. We have expanded discussion on subcortical structures:

      Section 4.3, 1st paragraph:

      “In the cerebral cortex, neurons account for a significant portion (≈80-90%) of energy demand, with most of this energy allocated to signaling (≈80%) and maintaining membrane resting potentials (≈20%) (Attwell and Laughlin, 2001; Howarth et al., 2012). Since firing frequency is modulatory and the neural networks utilize distributed coding, the maintenance of resting-state membrane potential determines the minimal energy budget and the lower-limit for cerebral perfusion. Based on neuronal variability and energy dedicated to maintaining surface potential, this suggest an approximate (4 × 20% ≈) 80% variation in CBF and a resultant 25% variation in CBV across the cortex, in line with Grubbs' law (CBV = 0.80 × CBF0.38) (Grubb et al., 1974). In the cerebellar cortex, neuron density is higher, and the resting potentials are thought to account for more than 50% of energy usage (Howarth et al., 2012), aligning with its higher vascular volume compared to the cerebral cortex (Fig. 1F). However, this is a simplified estimation, and a more comprehensive assessment would need to account for consider an aggregate of biophysical factors such as…”

      Section 4.3, 4th paragraph:

      “When viewed in terms of information flow, CBV appear to decrease along the canonical circuit pathway (e.g., L4→L2/3→L5) in the primary visual cortex (Douglas and Martin, 2007) and as one ascends the hierarchy (e.g., V1→V2→V3&4→MT→7A) from primary sensory areas (Fig. 3F, Supp. Fig. 8) (Felleman and Van Essen et al., 1991, Markov et al., 2014). A similar pattern is observed in the auditory hierarchy, where the inferior colliculus, an early processing hub, exhibits the highest vascular volume, followed by a gradual reduction along cortical auditory ‘where’ and ‘what’ pathways (Fig. 1F, Fig. 3B).”

      (7) Figure 3 is missing. Several statements in the manuscript require statistics (e.g., bimodality in Figure 2D, Figure 3F).

      We apologize to the reviewer for the absence of Figure 3 in the initial submission.

      As for statistical testing of bimodality, we respectfully disagree and feel that this would not add much value to the manuscript. We think a descriptive, rather than rigorous, approach is sufficient in this context.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This manuscript presents a new approach for non-invasive, MRI-based measurements of cerebral blood volume (CBV). Here, the authors use ferumoxytol, a high-contrast agent, and apply specific sequences to infer CBV. The authors then move to statistically compare measured regional CBV with the known distribution of different types of neurons, markers of metabolic load, and others. While the presented methodology captures an estimated 30% of the vasculature, the authors corroborated previous findings regarding the lack of vascular compartmentalization around functional neuronal units in the primary visual cortex.

      Strengths:

      Non-invasive methodology geared to map vascular properties in vivo.

      Implementation of a highly sensitive approach for measuring blood volume.

      Ability to map vascular structural and functional vascular metrics to other types of published data.

      Weaknesses:

      The key issue here is the underlying assumption about the appropriate spatial sampling frequency needed to capture the architecture of the brain vasculature. Namely, ~7 penetrating vessels / mm2 as derived from Weber et al 2008 (Cer Cor). The cited work begins by characterizing the spacing of penetrating arteries and ascending veins using a vascular cast of 7 monkeys (Macaca mulatta, same as in the current paper). The ~7 penetrating vessels / mm2 are computed by dividing the total number of identified vessels by the area imaged. The problem here is that all measurements were made in a "non-volumetric" manner and only in V1. Extrapolating from here to the entire brain seems like an over-assumption, particularly given the region-dependent heterogeneity that the current paper reports.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      - For broader readership, it would be beneficial to provide a guide on how to interpret baseline R2* versus ΔR2*.

      The text was edited as follows:

      “…For quantitative assessment, R<sub>2</sub>* values were estimated from multi-echo gradient-echo images acquired both before and after the administration of ferumoxytol contrast agent (Table 1). Subsequently, the baseline R<sub>2</sub>* and ΔR<sub>2</sub>*, an indirect proxy measure of CBV (Boxerman et al., 1995), volume maps for each subject were mapped onto the twelve native equivolumetric layers (ELs) (Fig. 1C). Each vertex was then corrected for normal of the cortex relative to B<sub>0</sub> direction (Supp. Fig. 1). Surface maps for each subject were registered onto a Mac25Rhesus average surface using cortical curvature landmarks and then averaged across the subjects (Fig. 1D, E). Around cortical midthickness, the distribution of R<sub>2</sub>*, an aggregate measure for ferritin-bound iron, myelin content and venous oxygenation levels (Langkammer et al., 2012), resembled the spatial pattern of ΔR<sub>2</sub>* vascular volume. However, across cortical layers, these measures exhibited reversed patterns: R<sub>2</sub>* increased toward the white matter surface, whereas ΔR<sub>2</sub> decreased (Fig. 1E, G).”

      - The legends in Figure 1 describe green/cyan arrows, which are not visible in the figure itself.

      We thank the reviewer for noting this discrepancy. The reference to green/cyan arrows was removed from the Figure 1 legend.

      - There are typos in Section 3.3: "(Figure 4A, E)" and "(cluster 3; Figure 3)" should be corrected to Figure 5.

      We thank the reviewer for noting this error. The references to the Figures were corrected.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      The work is elegantly presented and very easy to follow. The figures and the data presented there are compelling and well-organized. I have enjoyed reading the paper, despite my disagreement with the validity of the methodology presented.

      Validation against MRA methods (high resolution needed here, Bolan et al 2006, cited also by the authors). Certainly, that work used a much higher magnetic field. This could be done through collaboration if such a magnet is not available. In my humble opinion, the current arguments provided in the paper as validation fall short in convincing future readers. Other TOF approaches might be better suited (in combination with line scanning or single plane sequences) for the 3T used in this work.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s suggestion regarding time-of-flight (TOF) angiography at ultra-high magnetic fields, such as 9.4T for improved visualization of fast-flowing blood in arterial vessels, as elegantly demonstrated in Bolan et al., 2006. However, our focus was on mapping vasculature across cortical layers and TOF is not optimal for imaging slow capillary blood inflow. To enhance CNR also at capillary level, we used ferumoxytol-contrast agent to create quantitative CBV-weighted cortical layer maps (Boxerman et al., 1995).

      We are open to collaborative opportunities to revisit this work using ultra-high magnetic field strengths and more detailed neuroanatomical ground-truth measures. However, the recommended line scanning or single-plane sequences, at least on first impression, seem inadequate for whole-brain coverage and cortical surface mapping.

      Some of the methodology can be made more accessible to non-MRI readers. For example, a more elaborate explanation of R2* and ΔR2 could benefit future readers.

      Elaborated as requested (see above reply).

      A more detailed discussion of the limitations of the methodology could also be beneficial here. Explain the potential implications of under-sampling denser vascular areas (i.e. with potentially more than 7 penetrating vessels per mm2).

      V1, with its highest neuronal density, likely also has the highest feeding/draining vessel density. Based on this, we hypothesized that a 0.23 mm isotropic image resolution would sufficiently capture cortical arterio-venous networks, but we did not achieve the expected detection of 7 penetrating vessels per mm<sup>2</sup>. Consequently, we refrained from quantifying vessel density in other areas, albeit we did report the total vessel count.

      This under-sampling likely biases our ΔR2* estimates, skewing them toward larger vessels. To address this, we used median parcel values to avoid over-representing large vessels (the long-tail in ΔR2 parcels data distribution represents large vessels) and corrected for the cortical surface bias where blood originates from and returns to the pial network. These steps helped mitigate large vessel bias as described in the methods, results and discussion (see also our response to Reviewer #1, question #1).

      To improve clarity for readers, we further clarified:

      Methods:

      “The effect of blood accumulation in large feeding arteries and draining veins toward in the superficial layers was estimated using linear model and regressed out from the parcellated ΔR<sub>2</sub>* maps.”

      Results:

      “To mitigate bias resulting from undersampling the large-caliber vessels (Fig. 2A, B), median parcel values were obtained and M132 parcellated ΔR2* profiles were then detrended across ELs in each subject and then averaged.”

      Discussion:

      “This methodology, however, has known limitations. First, gradient-echo imaging is more sensitized toward large pial vessels running along the cortical surface and large penetrating vessels, which could differentially bias the estimation of Δ R<sub>2</sub>* across cortical layers (Fig. 2A, 2B) (Boxermann et al., 1995; Zhao et al., 2006). Additionally, vessel orientation relative to the B<sub>0</sub> direction introduce strong layer-specific biases in quantitative ΔR<sub>2</sub>* measurements (Supp. Fig. 1C) (Ogawa et al., 1993; Viessmann et al., 2019; Lauwers et al., 2008). To address these concerns, we conducted necessary corrections for B<sub>0</sub>-orientation, obtained parcel median values and regressed linear-trend thereby mitigating the effect of undersampling large-caliber vessels across ELs (Fig. 2C, Supp. Fig. 1).” 

      Please note, we are currently unable to create BALSA links to the figures due to maintenance issues at the data repository. As a result, we have opted to remove the links:

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This paper investigates the effects of the explicit recognition of statistical structure and sleep consolidation on the transfer of learned structure to novel stimuli. The results show a striking dissociation in transfer ability between explicit and implicit learning of structure, finding that only explicit learners transfer structure immediately. Implicit learners, on the other hand, show an intriguing immediate structural interference effect (better learning of novel structure) followed by successful transfer only after a period of sleep.

      Strengths:

      This paper is very well written and motivated, and the data are presented clearly with a logical flow. There are several replications and control experiments and analyses that make the pattern of results very compelling. The results are novel and intriguing, providing important constraints on theories of consolidation. The discussion of relevant literature is thorough. In summary, this work makes an exciting and important contribution to the literature.

      Weaknesses:

      There have been several recent papers that have identified issues with alternative forced choice (AFC) tests as a method of assessing statistical learning (e.g. Isbilen et al. 2020, Cognitive Science). A key argument is that while statistical learning is typically implicit, AFC involves explicit deliberation and therefore does not match the learning process well. The use of AFC in this study thus leaves open the question of whether the AFC measure benefits the explicit learners in particular, given the congruence between knowledge and testing format, and whether, more generally, the results would have been different had the method of assessing generalization been implicit. Prior work has shown that explicit and implicit measures of statistical learning do not always produce the same results (eg. Kiai & Melloni, 2021, bioRxiv; Liu et al. 2023, Cognition).

      We agree that numerous papers in the Statistical Learning literature discuss how different test measures can lead to different results and, in principle, using a different measure could have led to varying results in our study. In addition, we believe there are numerous additional factors relevant to this issue including the dichotomous vs. continuous nature of implicit vs. explicit learning and the complexity of the interactions between the (degree of) explicitness of the participants' knowledge and the applied test method that transcend a simple labeling of tests as implicit or explicit and that strongly constrains the type of variations the results of  different test would produce. Therefore, running the same experiments with different learning measures in future studies could provide additional interesting data with potentially different results.

      However, the most important aspect of our reply concerning the reviewer's comment is that although quantitative differences between the learning rate of explicit and implicit learners are reported in our study, they are not of central importance to our interpretations. What is central are the different qualitative patterns of performance shown by the explicit and the implicit learners, i.e., the opposite directions of learning differences for “novel” and “same” structure pairs, which are seen in comparisons within the explicit group vs. within the implicit group and in the reported interaction. Following the reviewer's concern, any advantage an explicit participant might have in responding to 2AFC trials using “novel” structure pairs should also be present in the replies of 2AFC trials using the “same” structure pairs and this effect, at best, could modulate the overall magnitude of the across groups (Expl/Impl.) effect but not the relative magnitudes within one group. Therefore, we see no parsimonious reason to believe that any additional interaction between the explicitness level of participants and the chosen test type would impede our results and their interpretation.

      Given that the explicit/implicit classification was based on an exit survey, it is unclear when participants who are labeled "explicit" gained that explicit knowledge. This might have occurred during or after either of the sessions, which could impact the interpretation of the effects.

      We agree that this is a shortcoming of the current design, and obtaining the information about participants’ learning immediately after Phase 1 would have been preferred. However, we made this choice deliberately as the disadvantage of assessing the level of learning at the end of the experiment is far less damaging than the alternative of exposing the participants to the exit survey question earlier and thereby letting them achieve explicitness or influence their mindset otherwise through contemplating the survey questions before Phase 2. Our Experiment 5 shows how realistic this danger of unwanted influence is: with a single sentence alluding to pairs in the instructions of Exp 5, we  could completely change participants' quantitative performance and qualitative response pattern. Unfortunately, there is no implicit assessment of explicitness we could use in our experimental setup. We also note that given the cumulative nature of statistical learning, we expect that the effect of using an exit survey for this assessment only shifts absolute magnitudes (i.e. the fraction of people who would fall into the explicit vs. implicit groups) but not aspects of the results that would influence our conclusions.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Sleep has not only been shown to support the strengthening of memory traces but also their transformation. A special form of such transformation is the abstraction of general rules from the presentation of individual exemplars. The current work used large online experiments with hundreds of participants to shed further light on this question. In the training phase, participants saw composite items (scenes) that were made up of pairs of spatially coupled (i.e., they were next to each other) abstract shapes. In the initial training, they saw scenes made up of six horizontally structured pairs, and in the second training phase, which took place after a retention phase (2 min awake, 12 h incl. sleep, 12 h only wake, 24 h incl. sleep), they saw pairs that were horizontally or vertically coupled. After the second training phase, a two-alternatives-forced-choice (2-AFC) paradigm, where participants had to identify true pairs versus randomly assembled foils, was used to measure the performance of all pairs. Finally, participants were asked five questions to identify, if they had insight into the pair structure, and post-hoc groups were assigned based on this. Mainly the authors find that participants in the 2-minute retention experiment without explicit knowledge of the task structure were at chance level performance for the same structure in the second training phase, but had above chance performance for the vertical structure. The opposite was true for both sleep conditions. In the 12 h wake condition these participants showed no ability to discriminate the pairs from the second training phase at all.

      Strengths:

      All in all, the study was performed to a high standard and the sample size in the implicit condition was large enough to draw robust conclusions. The authors make several important statistical comparisons and also report an interesting resampling approach. There is also a lot of supplemental data regarding robustness.

      Weaknesses:

      My main concern regards the small sample size in the explicit group and the lack of experimental control.

      The sample sizes of the explicit participants in our experiments are, indeed, much smaller than those of the implicit participants due to the process of how we obtain the members of the two groups. However, these sample sizes of the explicit groups are not small at all compared to typical experiments reported in Visual Statistical Learning studies, rather they tend to be average to large sizes. It is the sizes of the implicit subgroups that are unusually high due to the aforementioned data collecting process. Moreover, the explicit subgroups have significantly larger effect sizes than the implicit subgroup, bolstering the achieved power that is also confirmed by the reported Bayes Factors that support the “effect” or the “no effect” conclusions in the various tests ranging in value from substantial to very strong.  Based on these statistical measures,  we think the sample sizes of the explicit participants in our studies are adequate.

      As for the lack of experimental control, indeed, we could not fully randomize consolidation condition assignment. Instead, the assignment was a product of when the study was made available on the online platform Prolific. This method could, in theory, lead to an unobserved covariate, such as morningness, being unbalanced between conditions. We do not have any reasons to believe that such a condition would critically alter the effects reported in our study, but as it follows from the nature of unobserved variables, we obviously cannot state this with certainty. Therefore, we added an explicit discussion of these potential pitfalls in the revised version of the manuscript.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      In this project, Garber and Fiser examined how the structure of incidentally learned regularities influences subsequent learning of regularities, that either have the same structure or a different one. Over a series of six online experiments, it was found that the structure (spatial arrangement) of the first set of regularities affected the learning of the second set, indicating that it has indeed been abstracted away from the specific items that have been learned. The effect was found to depend on the explicitness of the original learning: Participants who noticed regularities in the stimuli were better at learning subsequent regularities of the same structure than of a different one. On the other hand, participants whose learning was only implicit had an opposite pattern: they were better in learning regularities of a novel structure than of the same one. This opposite effect was reversed and came to match the pattern of the explicit group when an overnight sleep separated the first and second learning phases, suggesting that the abstraction and transfer in the implicit case were aided by memory consolidation.

      These results are interesting and can bridge several open gaps between different areas of study in learning and memory. However, I feel that a few issues in the manuscript need addressing for the results to be completely convincing:

      (1) The reported studies have a wonderful and complex design. The complexity is warranted, as it aims to address several questions at once, and the data is robust enough to support such an endeavor. However, this work would benefit from more statistical rigor. First, the authors base their results on multiple t-tests conducted on different variables in the data. Analysis of a complex design should begin with a large model incorporating all variables of interest. Only then, significant findings would warrant further follow-up investigation into simple effects (e.g., first find an interaction effect between group and novelty, and only then dive into what drives that interaction). Furthermore, regardless of the statistical strategy used, a correction for multiple comparisons is needed here. Otherwise, it is hard to be convinced that none of these effects are spurious. Last, there is considerable variation in sample size between experiments. As the authors have conducted a power analysis, it would be good to report that information per each experiment, so readers know what power to expect in each.

      Answering the questions we were interested in required us to investigate two related but separate types of effects within our data: general above-chance performance in learning, and within- and across-group differences.

      Above-chance performance: As typical in SL studies, we needed to assess whether learning happened at all and which types of items were learned. For this, a comparison to the chance level is crucial and, therefore, one-sample t-test is the statistical test of choice. Note that all our t-tests were subject to experiment-wise correction for multiple comparisons using the Holm-Bonferroni procedure, as reported in the Supplementary Materials.

      Within- and across-group differences: To obtain our results regarding group and par-type differences and their interactions, we used mixed ANOVAs and appropriate post-hoc tests as the reviewer suggested. These results are reported in the method section.

      Concerning power analysis, in the revised version of the manuscript we added analysis of achieved power for the statistical tests most critical to our arguments.

      (2) Some methodological details in this manuscript I found murky, which makes it hard to interpret results. For example, the secondary results section of Exp1 (under Methods) states that phase 2 foils for one structure were made of items of the other structure. This is an important detail, as it may make testing in phase 2 easier, and tie learning of one structure to the other. As a result, the authors infer a "consistency effect", and only 8 test trials are said to be used in all subsequent analyses of all experiments. I found the details, interpretation, and decision in this paragraph to lack sufficient detail, justification, and visibility. I could not find either of these important design and analysis decisions reflected in the main text of the manuscript or in the design figure. I would also expect to see a report of results when using all the data as originally planned.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out these critical open questions our manuscript that need further clarification. The inferred “consistency effect” is based on patterns found in the data, which show an increase in negative correlation between test types during the test phase. As this is apparently an effect of the design of the test phase and not an effect of the training phase, which we were interested in, we decided to minimize this effect as far as possible by focusing on the early test trials. For the revised version of the manuscript, we revamped and expanded the discussion of how this issue was handled and also add a short comment in the main text, mentioning the use of only a subset of test trials and pointing the interested reader to the details.

      Similarly, the matched sample analysis is a great addition, but details are missing. Most importantly, it was not clear to me why the same matching method should be used for all experiments instead of choosing the best matching subgroup (regardless of how it was arrived at), and why the nearest-neighbor method with replacement was chosen, as it is not evident from the numbers in Supplementary Table 1 that it was indeed the best-performing method overall. Such omissions hinder interpreting the work.

      Since our approach provided four different balanced metrics (see Supp. Tables 1-4) for each matching method, it is not completely straightforward to make a principled decision across the methods. In addition, selecting the best method for each experiment separately carries the suspicion of cherry-picking the most suitable results for our purposes. For the revised version, we expanded on our description of the matching and decision process and added supplementary descriptive plots showing what our data looks like under each matching method for each experiment. These plots highlight that the matching techniques produce qualitatively roughly identical results and picking one of them over the other does not alter the conclusions of the test. The plots give the interested reader all the necessary information to assess the extent our design decisions influence our results.

      (3) To me, the most surprising result in this work relates to the performance of implicit participants when phase 2 followed phase 1 almost immediately (Experiment 1 and Supplementary Experiment 1). These participants had a deficit in learning the same structure but a benefit in learning the novel one. The first part is easier to reconcile, as primacy effects have been reported in statistical learning literature, and so new learning in this second phase could be expected to be worse. However, a simultaneous benefit in learning pairs of a new structure ("structural novelty effect") is harder to explain, and I could not find a satisfactory explanation in the manuscript.

      Although we might not have worded it clearly, we do not claim that our "structural novelty effect" comes from a “benefit” in learning pairs of the novel structure. Rather, we used the term “interference” and lack of this interference. In other words, we believe that one possible explanation is that there is no actual benefit for learning pairs of the novel structure but simply unhindered learning for pairs of the novel structure and simultaneous inference for learning pairs of the same structure. Stronger interference for the same compared to the novel structure items seems as a reasonable interpretation as similarity-based interference is well established in the general (not SL-specific) literature under the label of proactive interference.

      After possible design and statistical confounds (my previous comments) are ruled out, a deeper treatment of this finding would be warranted, both empirically (e.g., do explicit participants collapse across Experiments 1 and Supplementary Experiment 1 show the same effect?) and theoretically (e.g., why would this phenomenon be unique only to implicit learning, and why would it dissipate after a long awake break?).

      Across all experiments, the explicit participants showed the same pattern of results but no significant difference between pair types, probably due to insufficiency of the available  sample sizes. We already included in the main text the collapsed explicit results across Experiments 1-4 and Supplementary Experiment 1 (p. 16).  This analysis confirmed that, indeed, there was a significant generalization for explicit participants across the two learning phases. We could re-run the same analysis for only Experiment 1 and Supplementary Experiment 1, but due to the small sample of  N=12 in Suppl. Exp. 1, this test will be likely completely underpowered. Obtaining the sufficient sample size for this one test would require an excessive number (several hundreds) of new participants.

      In terms of theoretical treatment, we already presented our interpretation of our results in the discussion section, which we expanded on in the revised manuscript.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) It would be very useful to add individual data points (and/or another depiction of the distribution) to the bar plots. If not in the main figures, as added figures in the supplement.

      We added violin plots for all results in the Supplementary.

      (2) It would be helpful to include in the supplement some examples of responses that led to the 'explicit' or 'implicit' classification. Specifically, what kind of response was considered to contain a partial recognition of the underlying structure vs. no recognition?

      We added example responses used for classification in the Supplementary.

      (3) It would be useful to show the results of Experiment 5 as well as the diagonal version as supplemental figures.

      We added the requested figures in the Supplementary.

      Typos: page 10: "in in the tests", page 15: "rerun"

      Fixed.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) My strongest reservation relates to the small sample size in the explicit group. The authors do report stats for all experiments together in one analysis and I think this is the only robust finding for this group. I would suggest removing any comparisons between this smaller group and the larger implicit group since they do not make a lot of sense due to the imbalance in sample size in my opinion. If they do want to report the explicit group individually for each experiment, they should at least test for differences between the experiments also for this group using ANOVA.

      We do agree that the unbalanced nature of the sample sizes can be problematic for the between-group comparisons. The t-tests reported for between-group comparisons are in fact Welch’s t-test better suited for unequal sample sizes and variances. Previously, we failed to report that these t-tests were Welch’s t-test, which we fixed in the revised version.

      In the Supplementary, we previously reported an ANOVA including all explicit participants from all experiments. This showed a significant main effect of Experiment and test type, but no significant interaction. We take this as evidence that although specific levels of learning vary by experimental condition, the overall pattern of learning (i.e. which pairs are learned better) are the same across all experiments.

      (2) Moreover, the explicit group does not only differ in the explicitness of their memory but also regarding learning performance per se (as evidenced by performance differences for the first training). This important confound needs to be acknowledged and discussed more thoroughly!

      We agree that this topic is important, this is why the subsection “The Type of Transfer Depends on Quality of Knowledge, Not Quantity of Knowledge” deals exclusively with this issue. See our reply to the next point.

      (3) The resampling approach is somewhat interesting to solve the issue raised in 2. However, I doubt that the authors actually achieve what they are claiming. Since we have a 2-AFC task the possibility must be considered that participants who chose correctly in the implicit group did so by chance. This means that the assumption that the matched pairs actually have the same amount of memory for the first training period as the explicit group is likely false. Therefore, this analysis is still comparing apples and oranges.

      We address this idea in detail in the supplementary materials pointing out first that the matched results showed the same pattern as the full results suggesting that Phase 1 and Phase 2 results are independent for this group, and by arguing that randomly selected subset of participants should not show a significant deviation from null performance in the Same vs. Novel performance in Phase 2.

      (4) One important issue, when conducting online experiments is assuring random allocation of participants. How did the authors recruit participants to ensure they did not select participants for the different experiments that differed regarding their preference for wake vs. sleep retention intervals? If no care was taken in this regard, I would suggest reporting this and maybe briefly discussing it.

      This shortcoming was now reported and addressed in the discussion section of the revised manuscript.

      (5) I could not find any information about the exact questions that were asked about the task rules. Also, there was no information on how the answers were used to assign groups. Both should be added.

      The exact questions were added to the revised Supplementary.

      (6) I think that the literature on sleep and rule extraction is well-represented in the manuscript. However, I think also referring more thoroughly to the literature on how sleep leads to gist extraction, schemas, and insight would help understand the relevance of the present research.

      We subsumed references to the mentioned areas of research under the labels of abstraction and generalization. In the revised section, we listed the appropriate labels along with the already used references to make the connection to a vast literature treating generalization in related but distinct ways more explicit.

      (7) It is unclear to me why the items learned in the first learning phase interfere with those learned in the second learning phase (without sleep) and not vice versa. What is the author's explanation for this?

      We added a paragraph on this to our revised discussion section. In short, there may also be retroactive interference. However, we would need yet another variation of the paradigm to properly measure it, and this was outside the scope of the current work.

      (8) As far as I can tell the study lacks all of the usual control tasks that are used in the field of sleep and memory (especially subjective sleepiness and objective vigilance). In addition, this research has the circadian confound, and therefore additional controls would have been warranted, e.g., morningness-eveningness, retrieval capabilities. Also, performance immediately after training phase 1 was not tested, which would serve as an important control for circadian differences in initial learning of the rule.

      The study uses a number of the control measures established in the sleep and memory literature, such as habitual sleep quality and sleep quality during the night of and the night before the experiment. However, there are, of course, more potentially interesting measures, such as the ones named by the reviewer.

      Testing performance right after training phase 1 would have been very interesting indeed. However, due to the nature of statistical learning tasks, this would have completely confounded the implicitness of learning by presenting participants with segmented input; i.e. isolated pairs. Therefore, we opted for the lesser of two evils in our design decision.

      (9) As far as I can tell, there is no effect of sleep on correctly identifying pairs from training phase 1. This would be expected and thus should be discussed.

      As noted and referenced in the discussion section, the effect of sleep on statistical learning per se is a subject of controversy in the literature, where some studies apparently find effects, while others find no effect on statistical learning whatsoever.

      (10) The manuscript should explicitly mention if the study was preregistered.

      It was not.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The topic of this project is close to my heart, and I commend the authors for conducting numerous variations of the experiment with large sample sizes. I have some suggestions I feel will make the paper stronger, and a few minor comments that caught my eye during reading:

      (1) First and foremost, I found the paper's structure cumbersome. For instance, different aspects of Experiment 1 results are reported in (1) the main text, (2) under methods, and (3) in Supplementary. This makes reading unnecessarily difficult. This relates not only to the analysis results - the sample size is reported as 226 in the main text, 226+3 in Methods, and 226+3+19 in Supplementary. I strongly suggest removing all results from the Methods section and merging the supplementary results with the main results.

      We overhauled the structure of the paper, moving much more information into the proper method section and out of the Supplementary.

      (2) "Attention checks" and "response bias" appear first in Supplementary Experiment 1 but are explained only later under Experiment 1. The same thing for the experimental procedure. I therefore suggest placing Experiment 1 before Supplementary Experiment 1, but related to my previous comment - have one paragraph dedicated to Subject Exclusion of all experiments.

      The new structure of the Method sections solves this.

      (3) Figure 4 is mentioned but does not appear in the manuscript.

      This has been fixed. The paragraph in question now references the correct supplementary figure.

      (4) OSF project includes only data with no README file on how to understand the data. The work would also benefit from sharing the experimental and analysis codes.

      A README file was added.

      (5) This sentence is repeated in relation to four experiments: "Bayes Factors from Bayesian t-tests for implicit participants reported for experiments 1, 2, and 3 used an r-scale parameter of 0.5 instead of the default √2/2, reflecting that Experiment 1 found small effect sizes for this group". First, it is missing an explanation of what the r-scale means. Second, it sounds as if this was a product of the procedure, but in fact it was a decision by the researcher if I am correct. If so, it is missing a description of how and why this choice was made.

      This was indeed a decision by the researchers, in line with a Baysian logic of evidence accumulation. We made the explanation in the paper clearer.

      (6) Did I understand correctly that each pair was tested 4 times? Was it against the same foil? Did you make sure not to repeat the same pair in back-to-back trials? These details, in addition to what I noted in the public review, are needed.

      Each pair was tested 4 times. Each time against a different foil pair. Details have been added to the Method section.

      (7) Also in relation to my public review, I could not understand why the sample size was overshot by so much in Experiment 1 (229 instead of 198.15)?

      The calculated sample size of 198.15 was for the implicit subgroup alone, while 229 included explicit and implicit participants.

      (8) The correlation between phase 1 and phase 2 is only tested in explicit participants. Why is that? A test in implicit participants is needed for completeness.

      Correlations for implicit participants have been added.

      (9) There is known asymmetry between the horizontal and vertical plains in our visual system (with preference for horizontal stimuli). I was missing a comparison between learning in the two structures, and a report of how many participants received either in Phase 1.

      The allocation of participants to horizontal and vertical conditions was balanced. In the Method section we already report an ANOVA testing for a potential effect of orientation condition, which was not significant.

      Minor/aesthetic comments:

      (1) "In Phase 2, explicit participants performed above chance for learning pairs that shared their higher level orientation structure with that of pairs in Phase 1". This sounds as if there was a separate test following the two learning phases. Perhaps reword to "for phase 2 pairs".

      Fixed

      (2) "the two asleep-consolidation groups (Exp. 3 and 4)" - I think you mean Exp. 2 and 4.

      Fixed.

      (3) "acquiring explicitness in Experiment 5 as compared to 1" I think you mean Supplementary Experiment 1 as compared to 1.

      Fixed

      (4) "without such a redescription, the previously learned patterns in Phase 1 interfere with new ones in Phase 2, when redescription occurs..." The comma should be a dot.

      Fixed

      (5) In Experiment 4, did 168 or 169 participants survive exclusion? Both accounts exist, and so do reports of degrees of freedom that allow both 23 and 24 explicit participants.

      Fixed.

      (6) "Implicit learners also performed above chance.." in Experiment 2 is missing (n=XX).

      Fixed.

    1. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      The manuscript by Talbi R et al. generated transgenic mice to assess the reproduction function of MC4R in Kiss1 neurons in vivo and used electrophysiology to test how MC4R activation regulated Kiss1 neuronal firing in ARH and AVPV/PeN. This timely study is highly significant in neuroendocrinology research for the following reasons.

      (1) The authors' findings are significant in the field of reproductive research. Despite the known presence of MC4R signaling in Kiss1 neurons, the exact mechanisms of how MC4R signaling regulates different Kiss1 neuronal populations in the context of sex hormone fluctuations are not entirely understood. The authors reported that knocking out Mc4r from Kiss1 neurons replicates the reproductive impairment of MC4RKO mice, and Mc4r expression in Kiss1 neurons in the MC4R null background partially restored the reproductive impairment. MC4R activation excites Kiss1 ARH neurons and inhibits Kiss1 AVPV/PeN neurons (except for elevated estradiol).

      (2) Reproduction dysfunction is one of obesity comorbidities. MC4R loss-of-function mutations cause obesity phenotype and impaired reproduction. However, it is hard to determine the causality. The authors carefully measured the body weight of the different mouse models (Figure 1C, Figure 2A, Figure 3B). For example, the Kiss1-MC4RKO females showed no body weight difference at puberty onset. This clearly demonstrated the direct function of MC4R signaling in reproduction but was not a consequence of excessive adiposity.

      (3) Gene expression findings in the "KNDy" system align with the reproduction phenotype.

      (4) The electrophysiology results reported in this manuscript are innovative and provide more details of MC4R activation and Kiss1 neuronal activation.

      Overall, the authors have presented sufficient background in a clear, logical, and organized structure, clearly stated the key question to be addressed, used the appropriate methodology, produced significant and innovative main findings, and made a justified conclusion.

      Comments on revisions:

      The authors have addressed my comments.

    2. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public reviews:

      We are grateful to the reviewers and the editorial team for their feedback and thorough revisions of our paper. We also appreciate their acknowledgement that this study represents a significant advancement in the field of reproductive neuroendocrinology and offers insights on the contribution of obesity vs melanocortin signaling in women’s fertility. In the revised version, we will provide a more detailed clarification of the data and methodology and adhere to the reviewers’ suggestions.

      Please find below our answers to specific concerns in the public review:

      Given the fact that mice lacking MC4R in Kiss1 neurons remained fertile despite some reproductive irregularities, the overall tone and some of the conclusions of the manuscript (e.g., from the abstract: "... Mc4r expressed in Kiss1 neurons is required for fertility in females") were overstated. Perhaps this can be described as a contributing pathway, but other mechanisms must also be involved in conveying metabolic information to the reproductive system.

      We will tone down these statements throughout the manuscript to indicate that MC4R in Kiss1 neurons plays a role in the metabolic control of fertility (rather than “…is required for fertility”)

      The mechanistic studies evaluating melanocortin signalling in Kiss1 neurons were all completed in ovariectomised animals (with and without exogenous hormones) that do not experience cyclical hormone changes. Such cyclical changes are fundamental to how these neurons function in vivo and may dynamically alter the way they respond to neuropeptides. Therefore, eliminating this variable makes interpretation difficult.

      Mice lack true follicular and luteal phases and therefore it is impossible to separate estrogen-mediated changes from progesterone-mediated changes (e.g., in a proestrous female). Therefore, we use an ovariectomized female model in which we can generate a LH surge with an E2-replacement regimen [1]. This model enables us to focus on estrogen effects, exclude progesterone effects, and minimize variability. Inclusion of cycling females would make interpretation much more difficult.

      (1) Bosch et al., 2013 Mol & Cell Endo; https://doi.org/10.1016/j.mce.2012.12.021

      Use of the POMC-Cre to target ontogenetic inputs to Kiss1 neurons might have targeted a wider population of cells than intended.

      POMC is transiently expressed during embryonic development in a portion of cells fated to be Kiss1 or NPY/AgRP neurons [1-2]. Therefore, this is a valid concern when crossing with a floxed mouse. However, use of AAVs in adult animals avoids this issue and leads to specific expression in POMC neurons [3]. This POMC-Cre mouse has been used extensively with AAVs to drive specific expression in POMC neurons by other laboratories [4-7]. Therefore, we are confident that our optogenetic studies have narrowly targeted POMC inputs.

      (1) Padilla et al., 2010 Nat Med; https://doi.org/10.1038/nm.2126

      (2) Lam et al., 2017 Mol Metab; https://doi.org/10.1016/j.molmet.2017.02.007

      (3) Stincic et al., 2018 eNeuro; https://doi.org/10.1523/eneuro.0103-18.2018

      (4) Fenselau et al., 2017 Nat Neuro; https://doi.org/10.1038/nn.4442

      (5) Rau & Hentges, 2019 J Neuro; https://doi.org/10.1523/jneurosci.3193-18.2019

      (6) Fortin et al., 2021 Nutrients; https://doi.org/10.3390/nu13051642

      (7) Villa et al., 2024 J Neuro; https://doi.org/10.1523/jneurosci.0222-24.2024

      Recommendations for Authors

      We thank the reviewers and the editorial team for their comments and thorough revisions of our paper. We have now addressed their comments and edited the manuscript accordingly:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      L80 -This is an awkward sentence; it isn't an inverse agonist of the AgRP; this may read better just to say that the inverse agonist, AgRP.

      Thank you for this comment. This has now been changed in the text (L80).

      L86 - This text reads as if mice have an inherent obesity issue.

      This has also now been addressed in the text (L86).

      L131 - The numbers of digits past the decimal point should match for both mean and SEM.

      This has also now been addressed throughout the text.

      Figure 1D: Revise the bar graphs with distinct SEM bars, as these data are not generated within the same mice.

      The graphs are now changed, and they include distinct SEM and individual data points.

      Figure 2I-L - An n of 3 for controls is pretty minimal, though the clustering of data points is tight.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment, and we emphasize that while we agree that an n=3 for controls is minimal, the mRNA level values of this group are close, therefore the clustering of the data points is tight. We are happy to provide the raw data value for these groups if the reviewer wishes to.

      L159 - The role of reduced dynorphin mRNA is pretty speculative with regard to basal levels of LH, especially since no other indices of LH secretion were affected. It should also be recognized that mRNA levels do not always equate to activity.

      We agree with the reviewer that our explanation of the role of the reduced dynorphin with regards to the elevated basal LH is speculative, however, we only report that the higher LH levels correlates with the lower expression of the Pdyn gene expression, which is in line with the well documented role of Dynorphin on inhibiting LH secretion. We also recognize that mRNA levels don’t necessarily reflect activity. We have now added this statement to the text (L159).

      L164 - Given the ovary data, it seems that the increase seen in KO mice isn't quite sufficient, but is it known how much of a surge is necessary for ovulation in mice?

      We agree with the reviewer’s comment that the LH surge in Kiss1MC4RKO group is not enough to consistently induce ovulation, which is supported by the decrease in the numbers of corpora lutea data (Figure 2, O).

      According to literature, an LH surge in the female mice is estimated by a LH value >4 ng/ml (Bahougne et al., 2020). According to this rule, our data show that only two females out of six had LH surge in the KO group, while four females out of five had LH surge in the control group.  

      L211 - According to the figure, LH pulses were not recovered and remained similar to KO levels. Looking at the LH secretory patterns presented, it seems like the pulse frequency data should be interpreted with some caution, given that some of the pulses identified are tenuous at best.

      We agree that the LH pulses identified by our software (criteria described in the methods) are variable in shape (LH pulses are difficult to detect clearly in gonad intact females) and did not differ in number between groups; however, the reinsertion of Mc4r within Kiss1 neurons restored LH basal levels, amplitude and total secretory mass, which are clear indicatives of a significant improvement in the ability of these mice to release LH.

      L218 - Is there a reason why the surge was not looked at in these groups?

      Ovarian histology is the best indicator of ovulation. In these mice, corpora lutea were absent, indicating impaired ovulation, thus, we did not consider performing an LH surge protocol was necessary.

      L244 - This would also fit with previous findings in sheep that not all Kiss neurons express MC receptors

      We agree with this comment.

      L329 - Given the rapidity of its actions, how would this membrane ER function during a normal surge?

      Rapid estrogen signaling can act to ease transitions between states. Membrane delimited E2 actions can quickly attenuate or enhance coupling between receptors and signaling cascades. These effects will precede E2-driven changes in gene expression that produce more stable alterations in signaling. This combination of mechanisms will reduce any lag between rises in serum E2 and physiological effects. Considering the abbreviated mouse reproductive cycle, parallel mechanisms acting on different timescales are particularly important.

      L365 - I'm a little confused as to how this particular work sheds light on a role for MC3R. Is the relative distribution of the two isoforms within Kiss neurons known?

      In the present study, we report that hypothalamic Mc3r expression decreases leading up to the age of puberty onset (p30), in line with the profile of expression of Mc4r and a recent publication involving Mc3r in puberty onset (Lam et al., 2021), suggesting that both receptors may be involved in the control of reproductive function, potentially through the direct regulation of Kiss1 neurons as characterized in our present study.

      L422 - While I understand the nature of this statement, the receptor may simply reflect the activity of what binds to it, i.e., AgRP vs. alpha-MSH, suggesting that maybe the prepubertal period is more AgRP-dominated.

      We agree with this statement, and this needs to be further investigated.

      L495 - Reinsertion of Mc4R in Kiss1 neurons

      Thank you for this comment. This is now corrected in the text (L501).

      L524 - Bilateral ovariectomy of 6-month

      Thank you for this comment. This is now corrected in the text (L530).

      L538 - Is it known what stage of the cycle these mice were in when samples were collected?

      Yes, the samples were collected in diestrus. This is now mentioned in the text (L548)

      L556 - Pulse amplitude is usually measured relative to the preceding nadir.

      The method that we have been consistently using in our lab is the average of the 4 highest LH values in the samples collection period for each animal. We have found this to be consistent and representative of the overall amplitude (McCarthy et al., 2021; Talbi et al., 2021).

      L594 - This is a little confusing - the whole MBH would contain the ARH, but only the ARH was collected from the KO mice. If the whole MBH, dynorphin and Tac3, and Tac3 are expressed outside of the ARC, making interpretation of changes specifically within the ARH is difficult.

      Here (L592), we describe two different experiments, as mentioned by i) and ii).

      For experiment 1 (i): MBH was used in the WT mice at ages P10, P15, P22 and P30 to investigate the expression of the melanocortin genes (Agrp, Pomc, Mc3r and Mc4r).

      For experiment 2 (ii): In both KO and control groups, only the micro-dissected ARH was used to investigate genes expressions of Pdyn, Kiss1, Tac2, Tacr3.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The validation experiments for the various manipulations are currently presented in the supplementary data. Still, in my opinion, these are critically important for interpreting the data, and it should be considered to present these more comprehensively in the main body of the manuscript. In Figure S1, it seems that the exposure of the two images is not the same, with a higher background in the control. Has this image been adjusted to highlight the staining, while the other has not? It looks like there remains a low level of expression still present in at least some of the KO cells - this may reflect difficulties using RNAscope (with its extreme amplification) to detect the absence of a signal, or it could also be that the knockout is incomplete. A percentage of cells still express MC4R. I think this should be acknowledged or discussed.

      We thank the reviewer for the feedback. While we agree that the validation of the mouse model is critical, we would like to keep it in the supplemental data.

      We also agree that the exposure looks different between the KO and WT controls, and we thank the reviewer for this comment. The quality of the photograph decreased when transferring to the manuscript. This has now been improved in the revised figure.

      As for the MC4R expression in some of the KO cells, we believe that MC4R is expressed in non Kiss1 cells as shown in the merged figure. Therefore, we believe that the Knockout of Mc4r in Kiss1 neurons is complete in these mice.

      The clear difference from the PVN's lack of effect is convincing and indicates that a specific knockout has been achieved. Is equivalent data also available for the AVPV population of cells that are examined later in the manuscript? Do those Kiss1 neurons also express the MC4R? The same question applies to the knock-in experiment: Was the expression of MC4R also driven in the AVPV population using this approach

      Yes, Kiss1 neurons in the AVPV also express MC4R as indicated in this study, and thus Mc4r is removed/reinserted in the AVPV as well in this mouse model.

      The quantitative RT-qPCR data on developmental changes in metabolic signaling molecules are really peripheral to the paper's main question. Relative to the validation experiments (as discussed above), I think these are less important data and could be placed into a supplementary figure. The discussion of these data becomes problematic, e.g., on line 359, the changes are described as "a low melanocortin tone..." but this seems problematic when referring to reduced expression of AgRP, an inverse agonist at the MC4R. If you are going to present these data, individual data points should be shown. Similarly, the question about whether this is a PCOS-like phenotype is perhaps worth asking. Still, the simple assessment of T and AMH could also be reported in a sentence without necessarily showing the data (or placing it in a supplementary figure). Better to focus on the key question - which is the role of MC4R signaling in Kiss1 neurons.

      We understand this reviewer’s concerns, however, due to the impact of MC4R signaling (particularly in the context of AgRP) on puberty, we strongly believe that the reader will benefit from expression profile across ages so we will respectfully disagree and keep in the main figure.  

      Per this reviewer’s comment, we have now added individual data points to Figure 1D.

      We also agree with the reviewer that the T and AMH data are not in the main scope of the paper, but since we uncovered a PCOS-like phenotype in female mice with specific deletion of Mc4r from Kiss1 neurons, it is important to keep these data in the main figure to show that the phenotype does not fully resemble a PCOS model.

      Having praised the experimental design, I think it is fair to acknowledge that the reproductive data from these experiments remain difficult to interpret. I understand that it is difficult to illustrate estrous cycles, but the "quantitative" data on percentages of time spent in any one stage are not as informative as seeing the actual individual patterns in Figure 2B. Were all of the animals consistently like the one illustrated, with persistent diestrus and only occasional evidence of ovulation?

      We agree that Figure 2C may be difficult to interpret but it is the best way to capture the all the data points for each group.

      All the 5 Kiss1MC4RKO females had persistent diestrus phases with only one or two estrus phases over 15 days (except for one female who had 4 estrous days), compared to control females who had 7 to 9 days of estrous, as shown in the graph (except for one female who had 5 days of estrus over 15 days period).

      Given that LH pulses appear to be normal, does this, in fact, suggest an ovarian problem? Is that possible? Are MC4R and Kiss1 co-expressed in the ovary? Or do you think this suggests an ovulation problem, perhaps driven by the impaired LH surge?

      This reviewer is correct in that our findings suggest a central defect in ovulation based on the deficit observed in the preovulatory LH surge. Thus, it is possible to have normal LH pulses, which are driven by one population of Kiss1 neurons (ARH) and the LH surge, driven by a distinct population of Kiss1 neurons (AVPV).

      Similarly, the response to the "LH surge induction protocol" is impaired (why not look at endogenous LH surges?). It seems that ovulation should be an all-or-none phenomenon in that if the LH surge is sufficient to induce ovulation, then all available follicles would be ovulated. If it is not, then no follicles will be ovulated. Why fewer follicles are ovulated in the gene-targeted animals seems more likely to be due to impaired follicular development rather than a subthreshold LH surge. So, this again points back to the ovary. Or perhaps we need a more thorough assessment of the pattern of LH pulses throughout the cycles in these animals.

      An LH surge induction protocol allows us to submit all female mice to the same conditions and expect a similar response, which is then optimal to compare with animals with an expected ovulation deficit, as it eliminates   external factors. We disagree in that ovulation is an all-or-none phenomenon because in mice numerous follicles mature at the same time and thus a decrease in the number of ovulated oocytes may be significant between groups even if the animals are not completely infertile.

      Collectively, my assessment of these data is that there are effects on reproduction, but they are actually relatively subtle. There were abnormal cycles and impaired LH surge in response to exogenous estrogen. But the animals are not actually infertile, so can ovulate and express normal reproductive behavior. So while there is a role for MC4R signalling in Kiss1 neurons, it may be a contributing modulatory role rather than a major regulatory mechanism. I think the tone of the descriptions should reflect this. I like the way it is framed in some parts of the discussion ("reproductive impairments...mediated by MC4R in Kiss1 neurons and not by their obese phenotype"), but the overall significance of this is overstated in some places, such as the abstract and in other parts of the discussion ("this population is tightly controlled by melanocortins").

      As mentioned in previous responses, ovulation in mice is not all-or nothing, so while the mice can reproduce, the disruption in the central mechanisms that control ovulation and irregular estrous cycles are a significant advancement in the field with strong translational potential to species where only one oocyte is usually ovulated, like in humans, where reproductive disorders in MC4R patients had been attributed to the obesity phenotype rather than to a central action of MC4R (as the reviewer captured in their comment). This is one of the main findings of this study.

      The overstatement has been now addressed throughout the text.

      For in vitro studies, all mice were ovariectomized and given estradiol "replacement." What was the rationale for this? Wouldn't this suppress the basal activity of these neurons? Then it appears that some of the animals were studied as ovariectomised (for an unspecified time but apparently ">7 days", without hormone replacement. The basal activity of these cells would be dramatically different. I think these artificial manipulations make these data quite difficult to interpret. How does this reflect the situation in a normal (or abnormal) estrous cycle? My understanding is that the brain slice approach already compromises the ability of this population of cells to function as a coordinated network (i.e., coordinated episodes of activity that are seen in vivo have not been observed in vitro in brain slices). Ovariectomizing and providing exogenous hormones also removes the additional regulatory elements of the cyclical changes in hormone inputs, so the cells may or may not behave like they would in vivo. Perhaps the authors could justify their choice of experimental model.

      We have clarified that the mice were ovariectomized for 7-10 days. A group of 3 mice are OVXed at once and then used on subsequent days a week later. This delay is both for the recovery of the animal and to allow for “washout” of endogenous ovarian hormones. For optogenetic studies, we were not measuring basal activity. Rather, we prioritized the ability to detect a postsynaptic response. While E2 decreases the networked activity of Kiss1- ARH neurons, the Hcn channels, calcium channels, and Vglut2 expression are all increased. This leads to increased excitability and more glutamate release. Mice lack true follicular and luteal phases and therefore it is impossible to separate estrogen-mediated changes from progesterone-mediated changes (e.g., in a proestrous female). Therefore, we use an ovariectomized female model in which we can generate a LH surge with an E2-replacement regimen (Bosch et al., J Mol Cell Endocrinology 2013). This model enables us to focus on estrogen effects, exclude progesterone effects, and minimize variability. Finally, we have documented that Kiss1<sup>ARH</sup> neurons retain the synchronization of their neuronal firing in the hypothalamic slice preparation (Qiu et al., eLife 2016).

      Figure 4E shows neurons' staining after expressing a Cre-dependent channel rhodopsin vector into POMC-Cre mice. The number of labelled cells looks markedly larger than expected for adult POMC neurons. Was the specificity of this approach to neurons expressing POMC checked? I understand that the POMC-Cre mice have been criticised for ectopic expression of Cre during development in other populations of neurons in the arcuate nucleus that does not express POMC, such as the AgRP neurons (e.g., PMID: 22166984). Is it possible that this is not a problem in adult animals? Has that been validated in these animals? The description of the method suggests that it is acknowledged that some of the expression driven in these animals might be in AgRP neurons. Still, optogenetic activation of these cells will include all cells expressing Cre at the time of AAV administration.

      POMC is transiently expressed during embryonic development in a portion of cells fated to be Kiss1 or NPY/AgRP neurons. Therefore, this is a valid concern when crossing with a floxed mouse. However, use of AAVs in adult animals avoids this issue and leads to specific expression in POMC neurons. This POMC-Cre mouse has been used extensively with AAVs to drive specific expression in POMC neurons by other laboratories (Padilla et al., Nat Med 2010; Lam et al., Mol Metab 2017; Stincic et al., eNeuro 2018 eNeuro; Fenselau et al., Nat Neuro 2017). We have previously shown that AAV-driven mCherry expression is limited to cells labeled with a beta-endorphin antibody (Stincic et al., 2018 eNeuro). Therefore, we are confident that our optogenetic studies have narrowly targeted POMC inputs.

      Some additional explanation of the electrophysiology result may be required. For example, on Line 292, I'm confused by Fig 4M. Why is the response to 20Hz stimulation different in this cell (compared to the one in 4L) before administering naloxone? What proportion of cells showed this opposite response? On line 307: Is 5 cells sufficient for testing the POMC inputs onto AVPV and PeN Kiss1 neurons? How many slices/animals are included in collecting these 5 cells? The rapid action of STX illustrates the ability to modulate the response to MTII, but I am struggling to understand the implications of this in a physiological context. Suppose this response is desensitized by longer-term treatment with E2 (as indicated in the manuscript). Is it relevant to normal regulation during the cycle (particularly in the AVPV, where the key regulatory step seems to be the prolonged exposure to high estradiol as part of the preovulatory signals leading up to the LH surge)?

      As stated in the text, E2 has been shown to increase POMC expression and beta-Endorphin immunostaining. We do not know the effects of E2 on aMSH expression and release. E2 also tends to attenuate the coupling between inhibitory postsynaptic metabotropic (Gi,o-coupled) receptors and signaling cascades. So, there is likely a combination of pre- and post-synaptic mechanisms contributing to these responses. However, the focus of the current studies was on the predominant melanocortin signaling and, as such, we chose to eliminate the influence of opioid signaling. We have added two more cells to this group, both of which were successfully rescued for a total of 5 of 6 cells (6 slices, 5 animals). Between the labeling of b-endorphin fibers and high rate of rescue, we do believe that this is sufficient evidence to support a direct POMC input to Kiss1<sup>AVP/PeN</sup> neurons.

      Line 52: "Here, we show that Mc4r expressed in Kiss1 neurons is required for fertility in females." The knockout animals remain fertile, so this conclusion needs to be re-worded.

      Thank you for this comment. This has now been changed (L52).

      Line 80: "The melanocortin 4 receptor (MC4R) binds α-melanocyte stimulating hormone (αMSH), an agonist product of the pro-opiomelanocortin (Pomc) gene, and the inverse agonist of the agouti-related peptide (AgRP) to regulate food intake and energy expenditure" Is this the correct wording? I think it should be stated that AgRP is an inverse agonist at the MC4R, not that αMSH is the inverse agonist of AgRP. Re-work this sentence.

      Thank you for this comment. This has now been changed (L79-80).

      Line 88: "... however, conflicting reports exist". Describe what these conflicting reports show. Many MC4 variants ("mutations") are expressed in humans, but few will fully inactivate signalling like the mouse knockout.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. By conflicting data, we refer to the studies that report no reproductive impairments in women with MC4R mutations. Either because the metabolic impairments (obesity, hyperphagia, hyperinsulinemia, hyperleptinemia, etc) are so strong that the focus is skewed to these issues, without a full reproductive assessment in these women, or simply because the reviewer mentioned, not all MC4R mutations fully inactivate its signaling in humans - as opposed to mouse models where reproductive disruption has been described previously in full body MC4RKOs.

      Line 91: "...that largely affects females". Is this a genuine sex difference, or are reproductive deficits simply more overt in female rodents? I think the Coss paper (reference 19 in the manuscript) showed a greater effect of diet-induced obesity in males than in females.

      We believe that sex differences exist with regards to the role of MC4R in the regulation of fertility, as we show that most of this effect is mediated by MC4R signaling in Kiss1 AVPV neurons, a neuronal population that is specific to the female brain.

      As far as we can tell, the Coss paper (Villa et al., 2024) has only tested males but not females. Moreover, they investigated the effect of diet induced obesity in mice on their fertility (specifically LH secretion), while in this study we are specifically looking at the deletion of MC4R from Kiss1 neurons, and these mice were not obese (Figure 2A). While both these conditions induce impaired fertility, the mechanisms and signaling pathways are different (our mice lack MC4R signaling while the obese mice have a decrease in MC4R expression but the signaling is still functional).

      Line 392: also Hessler et al. PMID: 32337804.

      This reference is now added to the text (Line 393).

      Line 433. The discussion of how advanced puberty onset (seen in the Kiss1-specific KO animals) might be caused by MC4R signalling in AVPV Kiss1 neurons, which are sexually dimorphic, which might explain sex differences in puberty timing in mammals seems extremely speculative and based on limited data. More targeted experiments would be needed to address this, and I think this speculation should be removed here.

      This speculation has now been removed from the text.

      Line 438: "Furthermore, our findings suggest that metabolic cues, through the regulation of the melanocortin output onto Kiss1AVPV/PeN neurons, are essential for the timing and magnitude of the GnRH/LH surge." Again, I think this is overstating the present data, which has only looked at an artificial hormone administration regime. The animals are fertile and, thus, must be able to mount a sufficient LH surge. The major effect, in fact, seems to be on their cycle, perhaps leading to impaired follicular development. Please acknowledge that this will be one of the multiple pathways by which metabolic information is fed into the HPG axis.

      In addition to the effect on their cycles as mentioned by the reviewer, the Kiss1MC4RKO females also display impaired fertility (Figure 2, S-T) and fewer corpora lutea which is in line with the impaired mounting of LH surge (Figure 2, M). Even if the LH surge is induced by the hormone administration protocol, it only reflects the natural ability of the HPG axis to mount the surge, as this regimen is only there to mimic the endogenous hormonal changes leading to LH surge and therefore ovulation, in a controlled manner. Nonetheless, we agree with this reviewer that this is not the sole mechanism by which metabolism regulates reproductive function and this has been emphasized in the paper. (line 443)

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The decreased melanocortin tone drives puberty onset (Figure 1D), and this is correlative. The transgenic animals' hypothalamic expression of Agrp, Pomc, Mc4r, and Mc3r can be measured to strengthen the claim. Hprt expression should be demonstrated, as this housekeeping gene was used as a common denominator.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. While we think that indeed, measuring Agrp, Pomc, Mc4r, and Mc3r gene expressions in the transgenic mice will strengthen our claim and give more insights into the melanocortins tone during pubertal maturation, this is unfortunately not feasible as it will involve generating a lot of mice (at least n=40 pups for an n=5/group, KO and control littermates, females only -which will require setting up lots of breeding pairs-) during different ages throughout puberty.

      As for the gene expression of Hprt, because we have 6 mice per age, 4 ages total, every gene (Agrp, Pomc, Mc4r, Mc3r) was run in a separate plate with Hprt as its own housekeeping gene. Samples were run in duplicates for each Hprt and melanocortin genes in a 96 well = 48 wells for Hprt and 48 wells for each of the melanocortin genes. Therefore, it won’t be possible to represent one Hprt expression for all the four genes, however every gene was normalized to the Hprt gene expression that was ran in the same plate).

      In Figures 4 and 5, dot plots can be used (as opposed to the bar graphs) to better reflect the individual data points.

      Figures 4 and 5 have been revised to include individual data points.

      The electrophysiology experiment requires more details in the method section. In addition to the publication cited, a brief recap of the methodology used in this paper, such as the focal application of MTII (Figure 4B), is also needed.

      We have added more details to the Methods.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In the manuscript the authors describe a new pipeline to measure changes in vasculature diameter upon optogenetic stimulation of neurons. The work is useful to better understand the hemodynamic response on a network /graph level.

      Strengths:

      The manuscript provides a pipeline that allows to detect changes in the vessel diameter as well as simultaneously allows to locate the neurons driven by stimulation.

      The resulting data could provide interesting insights into the graph level mechanisms of regulating activity dependent blood flow.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The manuscript contains (new) wrong statements and (still) wrong mathematical formulas.

      The symbols in these formulas have been updated to disambiguate them, and the accompanying statements have been adjusted for clarity.

      (2) The manuscript does not compare results to existing pipelines for vasculature segmentation (opensource or commercial). Comparing performance of the pipeline to a random forest classifier (illastik) on images that are not preprocessed (i.e. corrected for background etc.) seems not a particularly useful comparison.

      We’ve now included comparisons to Imaris (a commercial) for segmentation and VesselVio (open-source) for graph extraction software.

      For the ilastik comparison, the images were preprocessed prior to ilastik segmentation, specifically by doing intensity normalization.

      Example segmentations utilizing Imaris have now been included. Imaris leaves gaps and discontinuities in the segmentation masks, as shown in Supplementary Figure 10. The Imaris segmentation masks also tend to be more circular in cross-section despite irregularities on the surface of the vessels observable in the raw data and identified in manual segmentation. This approach also requires days to months to generate per image stack.

      “Comparison with commercial and open-source vascular analysis pipelines

      To compare our results with those achievable on these data with other pipelines for segmentation and graph network extraction, we compared segmentation results qualitatively with Imaris version 9.2.1 (Bitplane) and vascular graph extraction with VesselVio [1]. For the Imaris comparison, three small volumes were annotated by hand to label vessels. Example slices of the segmentation results are shown in Supplementary Figure 10. Imaris tended to either over- or under-segment vessels, disregard fine details of the vascular boundaries, and produce jagged edges in the vascular segmentation masks. In addition to these issues with segmentation mask quality, manual segmentation of a single volume took days for a rater to annotate. To compare to VesselVio, binary segmentation masks (one before and one after photostimulation) generated with our deep learning models were loaded into VesselVio for graph extraction, as VesselVio does not have its own method for generating segmentation masks. This also facilitates a direct comparison of the benefits of our graph extraction pipeline to VesselVio. Visualizations of the two graphs are shown in Supplementary Figure 11. Vesselvio produced many hairs at both time points, and the total number of segments varied considerably between the two sequential stacks: while the baseline scan resulted in 546 vessel segments, the second scan had 642 vessel segments. These discrepancies are difficult to resolve in post-processing and preclude a direct comparison of individual vessel segments across time. As the segmentation masks we used in graph extraction derive from the union of multiple time points, we could better trace the vasculature and identify more connections in our extracted graph. Furthermore, VesselVio relies on the distance transform of the user supplied segmentation mask to estimate vascular radii; consequently, these estimates are highly susceptible to variations in the input segmentation masks.We repeatedly saw slight variations between boundary placements of all of the models we utilized (ilastik, UNet, and UNETR) and those produced by raters. Our pipeline mitigates this segmentation method bias by using intensity gradient-based boundary detection from centerlines in the image (as opposed to using the distance transform of the segmentation mask, as in VesselVio).”

      (3) The manuscript does not clearly visualize performance of the segmentation pipeline (e.g. via 2d sections, highlighting also errors etc.). Thus, it is unclear how good the pipeline is, under what conditions it fails or what kind of errors to expect.

      On reviewer’s comment, 2D slices have been added in the Supplementary Figure 4.

      (4) The pipeline is not fully open-source due to use of matlab. Also, the pipeline code was not made available during review contrary to the authors claims (the provided link did not lead to a repository). Thus, the utility of the pipeline was difficult to judge.

      All code has been uploaded to Github and is available at the following location: https://github.com/AICONSlab/novas3d

      The Matlab code for skeletonization is better at preserving centerline integrity during the pruning of hairs from centerlines than the currently available open-source methods.

      - Generalizability: The authors addressed the point of generalizability by applying the pipeline to other data sets. This demonstrates that their pipeline can be applied to other data sets and makes it more useful.  However, from the visualizations it's unclear to see the performance of the pipeline, where the pipelines fails etc. The 3d visualizations are not particularly helpful in this respect . In addition, the dice measure seems quite low, indicating roughly 20-40% of voxels do not overlap between inferred and ground truth. I did not notice this high discrepancy earlier. A thorough discussion of the errors appearing in the segmentation pipeline would be necessary in my view to better assess the quality of the pipeline.

      2D slices from the additional datasets have been added in the Supplementary Figure 13 to aid in visualizing the models’ ability to generalize to other datasets.

      The dice range we report on (0.7-0.8) is good when compared to those (0.56-86) of 3D segmentations of large datasets in microscopy [2], [3], [4], [5], [6]. Furthermore, we had two additional raters segment three images from the original training set. We found that the raters had a mean inter class correlation  of 0.73 [7]. Our model outperformed this Dice score on unseen data: Dice scores from our generalizability tests on C57 mice and Fischer rats on par or higher than this baseline.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):<br /> The authors have addressed most of my concerns sufficiently. There are still a few serious concerns I have. Primarily, the temporal resolution of the technique still makes me dubious about nearly all of the biological results. It is good that the authors have added some vessel diameter time courses generated by their model. But I still maintain that data sampling every 42 seconds - or even 21 seconds - is problematic. First, the evidence for long vascular responses is lacking. The authors cite several papers:

      Alarcon-Martinez et al. 2020 show and explicitly state that their responses (stimulus-evoked) returned to baseline within 30 seconds. The responses to ischemia are long lasting but this is irrelevant to the current study using activated local neurons to drive vessel signals.

      Mester et al. 2019 show responses that all seem to return to baseline by around 50 seconds post-stimulus.

      In Mester et al. 2019, diffuse stimulations with blue light showed a return to baseline around 50 seconds post-stimulus (cf. Figure 1E,2C,2D). However, focal stimulations where the stimulation light is raster scanned over a small region focused in the field of view show longer-lasting responses (cf. Figure 4) that have not returned to baseline by 70 seconds post-stimulus [8]. Alarcon-Martinez et al. do report that their responses return baseline within 30 seconds; however, their physiological stimulation may lead to different neuronal and vessel response kinetics than those elicited by the optogenetic stimulations as in current work.

      O'Herron et al. 2022 and Hartmann et al. 2021 use opsins expressed in vessel walls (not neurons as in the current study) and directly constrict vessels with light. So this is unrelated to neuronal activity-induced vascular signals in the current study.

      We agree that optogenetic activation of vessel-associated cells is distinct from optogenetic activation of neurons, but we do expect the effects of such perturbations on the vasculature to have some commonalities.

      There are other papers including Vazquez et al 2014 (PMID: 23761666) and Uhlirova et al 2016 (PMID: 27244241) and many others showing optogenetically-evoked neural activity drives vascular responses that return back to baseline within 30 seconds. The stimulation time and the cell types labeled may be different across these studies which can make a difference. But vascular responses lasting 300 seconds or more after a stimulus of a few seconds are just not common in the literature and so are very suspect - likely at least in part due to the limitations of the algorithm.

      The photostimulation in Vazquez et al. 2014 used diffuse photostimulation with a fiberoptic probe similar to Mester et al. 2019 as opposed to raster scanning focal stimulation we used in this study and in the study by Mester et al. 2019  where we observed the focal photostimulation to elicited longer than a minute vascular responses. Uhlirova et al. 2016 used photostimulation powers between 0.7 and 2.8 mW, likely lower than our 4.3 mW/mm2 photostimulation. Further, even with focal photostimulation, we do see light intensity dependence of the duration of the vascular responses. Indeed, in Supplementary Figure 2, 1.1 mW/mm2 photostimulation leads to briefer dilations/constrictions than does 4.3 mW/mm2; the 1.1 mW/mm2 responses are in line, duration wise, with those in Uhlirova et al. 2016.

      Critically, as per Supplementary Figure 2, the analysis of the experimental recordings acquired at 3-second temporal resolution did likewise show responses in many vessels lasting for tens of seconds and even hundreds of seconds in some vessels.

      Another major issue is that the time courses provided show that the same vessel constricts at certain points and dilates later. So where in the time course the data is sampled will have a major effect on the direction and amplitude of the vascular response. In fact, I could not find how the "response" window is calculated. Is it from the first volume collected after the stimulation - or an average of some number of volumes? But clearly down-sampling the provided data to 42 or even 21 second sampling will lead to problems. If the major benefit to the field is the full volume over large regions that the model can capture and describe, there needs to be a better way to capture the vessel diameter in a meaningful way.

      In the main experiment (i.e. excluding the additional experiments presented in the Supplementary Figure 2 that were collected over a limited FOV at 3s per stack), we have collected one stack every 42 seconds. The first slice of the volume starts following the photostimulation, and the last slice finishes at 42 seconds. Each slice takes ~0.44 seconds to acquire. The data analysis pipeline (as demonstrated by the Supplementary Figure 2) is not in any way limited to data acquired at this temporal resolution and - provided reasonable signal-to-noise ratio (cf. Figure 5) - is applicable, as is, to data acquired at much higher sampling rates.

      It still seems possible that if responses are bi-phasic, then depth dependencies of constrictors vs dilators may just be due to where in the response the data are being captured - maybe the constriction phase is captured in deeper planes of the volume and the dilation phase more superficially. This may also explain why nearly a third of vessels are not consistent across trials - if the direction the volume was acquired is different across trials, different phases of the response might be captured.

      Alternatively, like neuronal responses to physiological stimuli, the vascular responses elicited by increases in neuronal activity may themselves be variable in both space and time.

      I still have concerns about other aspects of the responses but these are less strong. Particularly, these bi-phasic responses are not something typically seen and I still maintain that constrictions are not common. The authors are right that some papers do show constriction. Leaving out the direct optogenetic constriction of vessels (O'Herron 2022 & Hartmann 2021), the Alarcon-Martinez et al. 2020 paper and others such as Gonzales et al 2020 (PMID: 33051294) show different capillary branches dilating and constricting. However, these are typically found either with spontaneous fluctuations or due to highly localized application of vasoactive compounds. I am not familiar with data showing activation of a large region of tissue - as in the current study - coupled with vessel constrictions in the same region. But as the authors point out, typically only a few vessels at a time are monitored so it is possible - even if this reviewer thinks it unlikely - that this effect is real and just hasn't been seen.

      Uhlirova et al. 2016 (PMID: 27244241) observed biphasic responses in the same vessel with optogenetic stimulation in anesthetized and unanesthetized animals (cf Fig 1b and Fig 2, and section “OG stimulation of INs reproduces the biphasic arteriolar response”). Devor et al. (2007) and Lindvere et al. (2013) also reported on constrictions and dilations being elicited by sensory stimuli.

      I also have concerns about the spatial resolution of the data. It looks like the data in Figure 7 and Supplementary Figure 7 have a resolution of about 1 micron/pixel. It isn't stated so I may be wrong. But detecting changes of less than 1 micron, especially given the noise of an in vivo prep (brain movement and so on), might just be noise in the model. This could also explain constrictions as just spurious outputs in the model's diameter estimation. The high variability in adjacent vessel segments seen in Figure 6C could also be explained the same way, since these also seem biologically and even physically unlikely.

      Thank you for your comment. To address this important issue, we performed an additional validation experiment where we placed a special order of fluorescent beads with a known diameter of 7.32 ± 0.27um, imaged them following our imaging protocol, and subsequently used our pipeline to estimate their diameter. Our analysis converged on the manufacturer-specified diameters, estimating the diameter to be 7.34 ± 0.32. The manuscript has been updated to detail this experiment, as below:

      Methods section insert

      “Second, our boundary detection algorithm was used to estimate the diameters of fluorescent beads of a known radius imaged under similar acquisition parameters. Polystyrene microspheres labelled with Flash Red (Bangs Laboratories, inc, CAT# FSFR007) with a nominal diameter of 7.32um and a specified range of 7.32 ± 0.27um as determined by the manufacturer using a Coulter counter were imaged on the same multiphoton fluorescence microscope set-up used in the experiment (identical light path, resonant scanner, objective, detector, excitation wavelength and nominal lateral and axial resolutions, with 5x averaging). The images of the beads had a higher SNR than our images of the vasculature, so Gaussian noise was added to the images to degrade the SNR to the same level of that of the blood vessels. The images of the beads were segmented with a threshold, centroids calculated for individual spheres, and planes with a random normal vector extracted from each bead and used to estimate the diameter of the beads. The same smoothing and PSF deconvolution steps were applied in this task. We then reported the mean and standard deviation of the distribution of the diameter estimates. A variety of planes were used to estimate the diameters.”

      Results Section Insert

      “Our boundary detection algorithm successfully estimated the radius of precisely specified fluorescent beads. The bead images had a signal-to-noise ratio of 6.79 ± 0.16 (about 35% higher than our in vivo images): to match their SNR to that of in vivo vessel data, following deconvolution, we added Gaussian noise with a standard deviation of 85 SU to the images, bringing the SNR down to 5.05 ± 0.15. The data processing pipeline was kept unaltered except for the bead segmentation, performed via image thresholding instead of our deep learning model (trained on vessel data). The bead boundary was computed following the same algorithm used on vessel data: i.e., by the average of the minimum intensity gradients computed along 36 radial spokes emanating from the centreline vertex in the orthogonal plane. To demonstrate an averaging-induced decrease in the uncertainty of the bead radius estimates on a scale that is finer than the nominal resolution of the imaging configuration, we tested four averaging levels in 289 beads. Three of these averaging levels were lower than that used on the vessels, and one matched that used on the vessels (36 spokes per orthogonal plane and a minimum of 10 orthogonal planes per vessel). As the amount of averaging increased, the uncertainty on the diameter of the beads decreased, and our estimate of the bead's diameter converged upon the manufacturer's Coulter counter-based specifications (7.32 ± 0.27um), as tabulated in Table 1.”

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Comments to the authors replies to the reviews:

      - Supplementary Figure 13:

      As indicated before the 3d images + scale makes it impossible to judge the quality of the outputs.

      As aforementioned, 2D slices have been added to the Supplementary Figure 13.

      - Supplementary Table 3:

      There is a significant increase in the Hausdorrf and Mean Surface Distance measures for the new data, why ?

      A single vessel being missed by either the rater or the model would significantly affect the Hausdorff distance (HD) and by extension Mean Surface Distance: this is particularly pertinent in the LSFM image with its much larger FOV and thus a potential for much larger max distances to result from missed vessels in the prediction or ground truth data. Large Hausdorff distances may indicate a vessel was missed in either the ground truth or the segmentation mask.

      Of note, a different rater annotated these additional datasets from the raters labeling the ground truth data. There is a high variability in boundary placements between raters. On a test where three raters segmented the same three images from the original dataset, we computed a ICC of 0.73 across their segmentations. Our model Dice scores on predictions in out-of-distribution data sets were on par with the inter-rater ICC on the Thy1ChR2 2PFM data.

      - Supplementary Figure 2: The authors provide useful data on the time responses. However, looking at those figures, it is puzzling why certain vessels were selected as responding as there seems almost no change after stimulation. In addition, some of the responses seem to actually start several tens of seconds before the actual stimulus (particularly in A).

      Only some traces in C and D (dark blue) seem to be actually responding vessels.

      This is not discussed and unclear.

      Supplementary Figure 2 displays the time courses of vessel calibre for all vessels in the FOV, not just those deemed responders.

      The aforementioned effects are due to the loess smoothing filter having been applied to the time courses for the preliminary response, which has been rectified in the updated figures. In particular, Supplementary Figure 2 has been updated with separate loess smoothing before and after photostimulation. The (pre-stimulation) effect is gone once the loess smoothing has been separated.

      - R Point 7: As indicated before and in agreement with the alternative reviewer, the quality of the results in 3d is difficult to judge. No 2d sections that compare 'ground truth' with inferred results are shown in the current manuscript which would enable a much better judgment. The provided video is still 3d and not a video going through 2d slices. Also, in the video the overlap of vasculature and raw data seems to be very good and near 100%, why is the dice measure reported earlier so low ? Is this a particularly good example ?

      Some examples, indicating where the pipeline fails (and why) would be helpful to see, to judge its performance better (ideally in 2d slices).

      As discussed in the public comments, the 2D slices are now included in Suppl. Fig. 4 and suppl. Fig 13 to facilitate visual assessment. The vessels are long and thin so that slight dilations or constrictions impact the Dice scores without being easily visualizable.

      - Author response images 6 and 7. From the presented data the constrictions measured in the smaller vessels may be a result (at least partly) of noise. This seems to be particularly the case in Author response image 7 left top and bottom for example. It would be helpful to show the actual estimates of the vessels radii overlaid in the (raw) images. In some of the pictures the noise level seems to reach higher values than the 10-20% of noise used in the tests by the authors in the revision.

      The vessel radii are estimated as averages across all vertices of the individual vessels: it is thus not possible to overlay them meaningfully in 2D slices: in Figure 2B, we do show a rendering of sample vessel-wise radii estimates.

      - "We tested the centerline detection in Python, scipy (1.9.3) and Matlab. We found that the Matlab implementation performed better due to its inclusion of a branch length parameter for the identification of terminal branches, which greatly reduced the number of false branches; the Python implementation does not include this feature (in any version) and its output had many more such "hair" artifacts. Clearmap skeletonization uses an algorithm by Palagyi & Kuba(1999) to thin segmentation masks, which does not include hair removal. Vesselvio uses a parallelized version of the scipy implementation of Lee et al. (1994) algorithm which does not do hair removal based on a terminal branch length filter; instead, Vesselvio performs a threshold-based hair removal that is frequently overly aggressive (it removes true positive vessel branches), as highlighted by the authors."

      This statement is wrong. The removal of small branches in skeletons is algorithmically independent of the skeletonization algorithm itself. The authors cite a reference concerned with the algorithm they are currently employing for the skeletonization. Careful assessment of that reference shows that this algorithm removes small length branches after skeletonization is performed. This feature is available in open-source packages as well, or could be easily implemented.

      We appreciate that skeletonization is distinct from hair removal and have reworded this paragraph for clarity. We are currently working with SciPy developers to implement hair removal in their image processing pipeline so as to render our pipeline fully open-source.

      The removal of hairs after skeletonization with length based thresholding leads to the possibility of removing parts of centerlines in the main part of vessels after branch points with hairs. The Matlab implementation does not do this and leaves the main branches intact.

      This text has been updated to:

      “Hair” segments shorter than 20 μm and terminal on one end were iteratively removed, starting with the shortest hairs and merging the longest hairs at junctions with 2 terminal branches with the main vessel branch to reduce false positive vascular branches and minimize the amount of centerlines removed. This iterative hair removal functionality of the skeletonization algorithm is currently unavailable in python, but is available in Matlab [9].

      - "On the reviewer's comment, we did try inputting normalized images into Ilastik, but this did not improve its results." This is surprising. Reasonable standard preprocessing (e.g. background removal, equalization, and vessel enhancement) would probably restore most of illastik's performance in the indicated panel.

      While the improvement may be present in a particular set of images, the generalizability of such improvement to other patches is often poor in our experience, as reflected by aforementioned results and the widespread uptake of DL approaches to image segmentation. The in vivo datasets also contain artifacts arising from eg. bleeding into the FOV that ilastik is highly sensitive to. This is an example of noise that is not easily removed by standard preprocessing.

      - "Typical pre-processing/standard computer vision techniques with parameter tuning do not generalize on out-of-distribution data with different image characteristics, motivating the shift to DL-based approaches."

      I disagree with this statement. DL approaches can generalize typically when trained with sufficient amount of diverse data. However, DL approaches can also fail with new out of distribution data. In that situation they only be 'rescued' via new time intensive data generation and retraining. Simple standard image pre-processing steps (e.g. to remove background or boost vessel structures) have well defined parameter that can be easily adapted to new out of distribution data as clear interpretations are available. The time to adapt those parameters is typically much smaller than retraining of DL frameworks.

      We find that the standard image processing approaches with parameter tuning work robustly only if fine-tuned on individual images; i.e., the fine-tuning does not generalize across datasets. This approach thus does not scale to experiments yielding large image sizes/having high throughput experiments. While DL models may not generalize to out-of-distribution data, fine-tuning DL models with a small subset of labels generally produce superior models to parameter tuning that can be applied to entire studies. Moreover, DL fine-tuning is typically an efficient process due to very limited labelling and training time required.

      - It is still unclear how the authors pipeline performs compared with other (open source or commercially) available pipelines. As indicated before, comparing to illastik, particularly when feeding non preprocessed data, does not seem to be a particularly high bar.

      This question has also been raised by the other reviewer who asked to compare to commercially available pipelines.

      This question was not answered by the authors, and instead the authors reply by claiming to provide an open source pipeline. In fact, the use of matlab in their pipeline does not make it fully open-source either. Moreover, as mentioned before, open-source pipelines for comparisons do exists.

      As discussed above, the manuscript now includes comparisons to Imaris for segmentation and Vesselvio for graph extraction. The pipeline is on github.

      -"We agree with the review that this question is interesting; however, it is not addressable using present data: activated neuronal firing will have effects on their postsynaptic neighbors, yet we have no means of measuring the spread of activation using the current experimental model."

      Distances to the closest neuron in the manuscript are measured without checking if it's active. Thus, distances to the first set of n neurons could be measured in the same way, ignoring activation effects.

      Shorter distances to an entire ensemble of neurons would still be (more) informative of metabolic demands.

      This could indeed be done within the existing framework. The connected-components-3d can be used to extract individual occurrences of neurons in the FOV from the neuron segmentation mask. Each neuron could then have its distance calculated to each point on the vessel centerlines.

      - model architecture:

      It is unclear from the description if any positional encoding was used for the image patches.

      It is unclear if the architecture / pipeline can handle any volume sizes or is trained on a fixed volume shapes? In the latter case how is the pipeline applied?

      The model includes positional encoding, as described in Hatamizadeh et al. 2021.

      The model can be applied to images of any size, as demonstrated on larger images in Supplementary Figure 9 and on smaller images in Supplementary Figure 2. The pipeline is applied in the same way. It will read in the size of an input image and output an image of the same size.

      - transformer models often show better results when using a learning rate scheduler that adjust the learning rate (up and down ramps typically). Did the authors test such approaches?

      We did not use a learning rate scheduler, as we found we were getting good results without using one.

      - formula (4): The 95% percentile of two numbers is the max, and thus (5) is certainly not what the HD95 metric is. The formula is simply wrong as displayed.

      Thank you. The formula has been updated.

      - formula (5): formula 5 is certainly wrong: n_X, n_y are either integer numbers as indicated by the sum indices or sets when used in the distances, but can't be both at the same time.

      Thank you for your comment. The Formula has been updated.

      - The statement:

      "this functionality of the skeletonization algorithm is currently unavailable in any python implementation, but is available in Matlab [56]."

      is not correct (see reply above)

      Please see the response above. This text has been updated to:

      “Hair” segments shorter than 20 μm and terminal on one end were iteratively removed, starting with the shortest hairs and merging the longest hairs at junctions with 2 terminal branches with the main vessel branch to reduce false positive vascular branches and minimize the amount of centerlines removed. This iterative hair removal functionality of the skeletonization algorithm is currently unavailable in Python, but is available in Matlab [9].

      - the centerline extraction is performed after taking the union of smoothed masks. The union operation can induce novel 'irregular' boundaries that degrade skeletonization performance. I would expect to apply smoothing after the union?

      Indeed the images were smoothed via dilation after taking the union, as described in the previous set of responses to private comments.

      - "The radius estimate defined the size of the Gaussian kernel that was convolved with the image to smooth the vessel: smaller vessels were thus convolved with narrower kernels."

      It's unclear what image were filtered ?

      We have updated this text for clarity:

      The radius estimate defined the size of the Gaussian kernel that was convolved with the 2D image slice to smooth the vessel: smaller vessels were thus convolved with narrower kernels.

      - Was deconvolution on the raw images applied or after Gaussian filtering ?

      The deconvolution was applied before Gaussian filtering.

      - ",we extracted image intensities in the orthogonal plane from the deconvolved raw registered image. A 2D Gaussian kernel with sigma equal to 80% of the estimated vessel-wise radius was used to low-pass filter the extracted orthogonal plane image and find the local signal intensity maximum searching, in 2D, from the center of the image to the radius of 10 pixels from the center."

      Would it not be better to filter the 3d image before extracting a 2d plane and filter then ?

      That could be done, but would incur a significant computational speed penalty. 2D convolutions are faster, and produced excellent accuracy when estimating radii in our bead experiment.

      What algorithm was used to obtain the 2d images.

      The 2d images were obtained using scipy.ndimage.map_coordinates.

      - Figure 2: H is this the filtered image or the raw data ?

      Panel H is raw data.

      - It would be good to see a few examples of the raw data overlaid with the radial estimates to evaluate the approach (beyond the example in K).

      Additional examples are shown in Figure 5.

      - Figure 2 K: Why are boundary points greater than 2 standard deviations away from the mean excluded ?

      They are excluded to account for irregularities as vessels approach junctions [10], [11] REF.

      - Figure 2 L: what exactly is plotted here ? What are vertex wise changes, is that the difference between the minimum and maximum of all the detected radii for a single vertex? Why do some vessels (red) show high values consistently throughout the vessel ?

      Figure 2L displays change in the radius of vertices - in this FOV- following photostimulation in relation to baseline.

      - Assortativity: to calculate the assortativity, are radius changes binned in any form to account for the fact that otherwise, $e_{xy}$ and related measures will be likely be based on single data points?

      Assortativity is not calculated from single data points. It can be calculated by either binning into categories or computing it on scalars i.e. average radius across a vessel segment:

      See here for info on calculating assortativity from binned categories (ie classifying a vessel as a constrictor, dilator or non-responder):

      https://networkx.org/documentation/stable/reference/algorithms/generated/networkx.algorithms.assortativity.attribute_assortativity_coefficient.html#networkx.algorithms.assortativity.attribute_assortativity_coefficient

      And see here for calculating assortativity from scalar values:

      https://networkx.org/documentation/stable/reference/algorithms/generated/networkx.algorithms.assortativity.numeric_assortativity_coefficient.html#networkx.algorithms.assortativity.numeric_assortativity_coefficient

      We calculated the assortativity using scalar values.

      In both cases, one uses all nodes and calculates the correlation between each node and its neighbours with an attribute that can be binned or is a scalar. Binning the value on a given node would not affect the number of nodes in a graph.

      - "Ilastik tended to over-segment vessels, i.e. the model returned numerous false positives, having a high recall (0.89{plus minus}0.19) but low precision (0.37{plus minus}0.33) (Figure 3, Supplementary Table 3)."

      As indicated before, and looking at Figure 4, over segmentation seems due to too high background. A suggested preprocessing step on the raw images to remove background could have avoided this.

      The images were normalized in preprocessing.

      - Figure 4: The 3d panels are not much easier to read in the revised version. As suggested by other reviewers, 2d sections indicating the differences and errors would be much more helpful to judge the pipelines quality more appropriately.

      As discussed above, 2D sections are now available in a supplementary figure.

      - Figure 3: What would be the dice score (and other measures) between two ground truths extracted by two annotations by two humans (assisted e.g. by illastik).

      Two additional human rates annotated images. We observed a ICC of 0.73 across a total of three raters on the three images.

      - Figure 5: The authors only provide the absolute value of SU for the sigma noise levels. This only has some meaning when compared to the mean or median SU of the images. In the text the maximal intensity of 1023 SU is mentioned, but what are those values in images with weaker / smaller vessels (as provided in the constriction examples in the revision)/

      I am unclear why this validation figure should be part of the main manuscript while generalization performance is left out.

      The manuscript has been updated with the mean SNR value of 5.05 ± 0.15 to provide context for the quality of our images.

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    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Reviewer 1:

      The authors explain that an action potential that reach an axon terminal emits a small electrical field as it "annihilates". This happens even though there is no gap junction, at chemical synapses. The generated electrical field is simulated to show that it can affect a nearby, disconnected target membrane by tens of microvolts for tenths of a microsecond. Longer effects are simulated for target locations a few microns away.

      To simulate action potentials (APs), the paper does not use the standard HodgkinHuxley formalism because it fails to explain AP collision. Instead it uses the Tasaki and Matsumoto (TM) model which is simplified to only models APs with three parameters and as a membrane transition between two states of resting versus excited. The authors expand the strictly binary, discrete TM method to a Relaxing Tasaki Model (RTM) that models the relaxation of the membrane potential after an AP. They find that the membrane leak can be neglected in determining AP propagation and that the capacitive currents dominate the process.

      The strength of the work is that authors identified an important interaction between neurons that is neglected by the standard models. A weakness of the proposed approach is the assumptions that it makes. For instance, the external medium is modeled as a homogeneous conductive medium, which may be further explored to properly account for biological processes. To the authors’ credit, the external medium can be largely varying and could be left out from the general model, only to be modeled specific instances.

      The authors provide convincing evidence by performing experiments to record action potential propagation and collision properties and then developing a theoretical framework to simulate effect of their annihilation on nearby membranes. They provide both experimental evidence and rigorous mathematical and computer simulation findings to support their claims. The work has a potential of explaining significant electrical interaction between nerve centers that are connected via a large number of parallel fibers.

      Comments on revisions:

      The authors responded to all of my previous concerns and significantly improved the manuscript.

      We thank the reviewer for his comments and are pleased that we were able to adequately address all of his previous concerns. As a small comment to the remark of the reviewer “potential of explaining ... interaction ... via a large number of parallel fibers” we would like to add: The ephaptic coupling is prominent when APs annihilate at axon terminals, as we illustrate in Figure 4 and 5. Across parallel fibers, the impact of propagating APs is much lower but still may result in synchronization of APs.

      Reviewer 2:

      In this study, the authors measured extracellular electrical features of colliding APs travelling in different directions down an isolated earthworm axon. They then used these features to build a model of the potential ephaptic effects of AP annihilation, i.e. the electrical signals produced by colliding/annihilating APs that may influence neighbouring tissue. The model was then applied to some different hypothetical scenarios involving synaptic connections. In a revised version of the manuscript, it was also applied, with success, to published experimental data on the cerebellar basket cell-to-Purkinje cell pinceau connection. The conclusion is that an annihilating AP at a presynaptic terminal can emphatically influence the voltage of a postsynaptic cell (this is, presumably, the ’electrical coupling between neurons’ of the title), and that the nature of this influence depends on the physical configuration of the synapse.

      As an experimental neuroscientist who has never used computational approaches, I am unable to comment on the rigour of the analytical approaches that form the bulk of this paper. The experimental approaches appear very well carried out, and the data showing equal conduction velocity of anti- and orthodromically propagating APs in every preparation is now convincing.

      The conclusions drawn from the synaptic modelling have been considerably strengthened by the new Figure 5. Here, the authors’ model - including AP annihilation at a synaptic terminal - is used to predict the amplitude and direction of experimentally observed effects at the cerebellar basket cell-to-Purkinje cell synapse (Blot & Barbour 2014). One particular form of the model (RTM with tau=0.5ms and realistic non-excitability of the terminal) matches the experimental data extremely well. This is a much more convincing demonstration that the authors’ model of ephaptic effects can quantitatively explain key features of experimental data pertaining to synaptic function. As such, the implications for the relevance of ephaptic coupling at different synaptic contacts may be widespread and important.

      However, it appears that all of the models in the new Fig5 involve annihilating APs, yet only one fits the data closely. A key question, which should be addressed if at all possible, is what happens to the predictive power of the best-fitting model in Fig5 if the annihilation, and only the annihilation, is removed? In other words, can the authors show that it is specifically the ephaptic effects of AP annihilation, rather than other ephaptic effects of, say AP waveform/amplitude/propagation, that explain the synaptic effects measured in Blot & Barbour (2014)? This would appear to be a necessary demonstration to fully support the claims of the title.

      Reviewer 2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Can you clarify whether all models shown in Fig5 involve an annihilating AP? Is it possible to plot the predicted effects of the most successful model (RTM 0.5ms in B) with *only* the annihilation selectively removed?

      We are grateful for the reviewer’s comments and the specific suggestion for improvement (’...can the authors show that it is specifically the ephaptic effects of AP annihilation, rather than other ephaptic effects...’). For illustrating the importance of annihilation, we added the results of our calculation when no annihilation occurs, i.e. for propagating APs in the source neuron (Figure 5A) and we modified the geometry of the source neuron in Figure 5B such that only the annihilation takes place. Together with the source neuron with similar properties to the Basket cell (Figure 5C), we now show the effect of annihilation and the effect of Basket cell specific geometry and physiology. We added and edited in the main text the following 4 sentences:

      ll 271: In our two models (TM and RTM), the modulation of not terminating but propagating APs along the source axon on the AP rate of the target cell is minute (Figure 5A). Note that this geometry does not correspond to the Purkinje cell-Basket cell connectivity. For annihilating APs at the axon terminal, with excitable segments up to the very end, our models reveal a moderate modulation, and only about half of what was reported for the Purkinje cell by Blot and Barbour (2014). This illustrates the importance of AP annihilation for ephaptic coupling (Figure 5B). We added and edited the figure legend:

      Figure 5. ... (A) excluding the annihilation of an AP at the source neuron, i.e. a propagating AP, cause only minute modulation of the predicted AP rate in the target neuron. Note that this example does not represent the Basket cell terminal with annihilating APs. (B) annihilation of an AP at the terminal of the source neuron, with all segments being excitable in our calculation, cause moderate modulation. (C) source neuron with similar properties to the Basket cell, i.e. a bouton and last segments non-excitable (corresponding to 15 µm with no switch from resting state to excited state), cause inhibition and rebound that is very similar as described by Blot and Barbour (2014).

      In the discussion, we extended one sentence to refer to Figure 5:

      ll 346: This may cause synchronization of APs and our proposed model also can be used to study the observed phenomena of synchronization due to ephaptic coupling, even in the case of zero discharge (see Figure 4A, and local impact on the target, integrated on timescales >1 ms in Figure 5).

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      The authors observed a decline in autophagy and proteasome activity in the context of Milton knockdown. Through proteomic analysis, they identified an increase in the protein levels of eIF2β, subsequently pinpointing a novel interaction within eIF subunits where eIF2β contributes to the reduction of eIF2α phosphorylation levels. Furthermore, they demonstrated that overexpression of eIF2β suppresses autophagy and leads to diminished motor function. It was also shown that in a heterozygous mutant background of eIF2β, Milton knockdown could be rescued. This work represents a novel and significant contribution to the field, revealing for the first time that the loss of mitochondria from axons can lead to impaired autophagy function via eIF2β, potentially influencing the acceleration of aging. To further support the authors' claims, several improvements are necessary, particularly in the methods of quantification and the points that should be demonstrated quantitatively. It is crucial to investigate the correlation between aging and the proteins eIF2β and eIF2α.

      Thank you so much for your review and comments. We included analyses of protein levels of eIF2α, eIF2β, and eIF2γ at 7 days and 21 days (Figure 4D). The manuscript was revised as below;

      Lines 242-245 ‘As for the other subunits of eIF2 complex, proteome analysis did not detect a significant difference in the protein levels of eIF2α and eIF2γ between milton knockdown and control flies at 7 and 21 days (Figure 4D).’

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      In the manuscript, the authors aimed to elucidate the molecular mechanism that explains neurodegeneration caused by the depletion of axonal mitochondria. In Drosophila, starting with siRNA depletion of Milton and Miro, the authors attempted to demonstrate that the depletion of axonal mitochondria induces the defect in autophagy. From proteome analyses, the authors hypothesized that autophagy is impacted by the abundance of eIF2β and the phosphorylation of eIF2α. The authors followed up the proteome analyses by testing the effects of eIF2β overexpression and depletion on autophagy. With the results from those experiments, the authors proposed a novel role of eIF2β in proteostasis that underlies neurodegeneration derived from the depletion of axonal mitochondria.

      The manuscript has several weaknesses. The reader should take extra care while reading this manuscript and when acknowledging the findings and the model in this manuscript.

      The defect in autophagy by the depletion of axonal mitochondria is one of the main claims in the paper. The authors should work more on describing their results of LC3-II/LC3-I ratio, as there are multiple ways to interpret the LC3 blotting for the autophagy assessment. Lysosomal defects result in the accumulation of LC3-II thus the LC3-II/LC3-I ratio gets higher. On the other hand, the defect in the early steps of autophagosome formation could result in a lower LC3-II/LC3-I ratio. From the results of the actual blotting, the LC3-I abundance is the source of the major difference for all conditions (Milton RNAi and eIF2β overexpression and depletion). In the text, the authors simply state the observation of their LC3 blotting. The manuscript lacks an explanation of how to evaluate the LC3-II/LC3-I ratio. Also, the manuscript lacks an elaboration on what the results of the LC3 blotting indicate about the state of autophagy by the depletion of axonal mitochondria.

      Thank you for pointing it out, and we apologize for an insufficient description of the result. We included quantitation of the levels of LC3-I and LC3-II in Figure 2A, 2D, 3D, 6B and 7B. As the reviewer pointed out, changes in the LC3-II/LC3-I ratio do not necessarily indicate autophagy defects. However, since p62 accumulation (Figure 2B, 2E, 3E, 6C, 7C in the original manuscript), these results collectively suggest that autophagy is lowered. We revised the manuscript to include this discussion as below:

      Lines 174-186 ‘During autophagy progression, LC3 is conjugated with phosphatidylethanolamine to form LC3-II, which localizes to isolation membranes and autophagosomes. LC3-I accumulation occurs when autophagosome formation is impaired, and LC3-II accumulation is associated with lysosomal defects(31,32). p62 is an autophagy substrate, and its accumulation suggests autophagic defects(31,32). We found that milton knockdown increased LC3-I, and the LC3-II/LC3-I ratio was lower in milton knockdown flies than in control flies at 14-day-old (Figure 2A). We also analyzed p62 levels in head lysates sequentially extracted using detergents with different stringencies (1% Triton X-100 and 2% SDS). Western blotting revealed that p62 levels were increased in the brains of 14-day-old of milton knockdown flies (Figure 2B). The increase in the p62 level was significant in the Triton X-100-soluble fraction but not in the SDS-soluble fraction (Figure 2B), suggesting that depletion of axonal mitochondria impairs the degradation of less-aggregated proteins.’

      Line 189-190 : ‘At 30 day-old, LC3-I was still higher, and the LC3-II/LC3-I ratio was lower, in milton knockdown compared to the control (Figure 2D).’

      Line 199-201: ‘However, in contrast with milton knockdown, Pfk knockdown did not affect the levels of LC3-I, LC3-II or the LC3-II/LC3-I ratio (Figure 3D).’

      Line 275-281: ‘Neuronal overexpression of eIF2β increased LC3-II, while the LC3-II/LC3-I ratio was not significantly different (Figure 6A and B). Overexpression of eIF2β significantly increased the p62 level in the Triton X-100-soluble fraction (Figure 6C, 4-fold vs. control, p < 0.005 (1% Triton X-100)) but not in the SDS-soluble fraction (Figure 6C, 2-fold vs. control, p = 0.062 (2% SDS)), as observed in brains of milton knockdown flies (Figure 2B). These data suggest that neuronal overexpression of eIF2β accumulates autophagic substrates.’

      Line 307-315: ‘Neuronal knockdown of milton causes accumulation of autophagic substrate p62 in the Triton X-100-soluble fraction (Figure 2B), and we tested if lowering eIF2β ameliorates it. We found that eIF2β heterozygosity caused a mild increase in LC3-I levels and decreases in LC3-II levels, resulting in a significantly lower LC3-II/LC3-I ratio in milton knockdown flies (Figure 7B). eIF2β heterozygosity decreased the p62 level in the Triton X-100-soluble fraction in the brains of milton knockdown flies (Figure 7C). The p62 level in the SDS-soluble fraction, which is not sensitive to milton knockdown (Figure 2B), was not affected (Figure 7C). These results suggest that suppression of eIF2β ameliorates the impairment of autophagy caused by milton knockdown.’

      Another main point of the paper is the up-regulation of eIF2β by depleting the axonal mitochondria leads to the proteostasis crisis. This claim is formed by the findings from the proteome analyses. The authors should have presented their proteomic data with much thorough presentation and explanation. As in the experiment scheme shown in Figure 4A, the author did two proteome analyses: one from the 7-day-old sample and the other from the 21-day-old sample. The manuscript only shows a plot of the result from the 7-day-old sample, but that of the result from the 21-day-old sample. For the 21-day-old sample, the authors only provided data in the supplemental table, in which the abundance ratio of eIF2β from the 21-day-old sample is 0.753, meaning eIF2β is depleted in the 21-day-old sample. The authors should have explained the impact of the eIF2β depletion in the 21-day-old sample, so the reader could fully understand the authors' interpretation of the role of eIF2β on proteostasis.

      Thank you for pointing it out. We included plots of the results of 21-day-old proteome as a part of the main figure (Figure 4C). As the reviewer pointed out, eIF2β protein levels are reduced at the 21-day-old. Since a reduction in the eIF2_β_ ameliorated milton knockdown-induced locomotor defects in aged flies (Figure 7D), the reduction in eIF2β observed in the 21-day-old milton knockdown flies is not likely to negatively contribute to milton knockdown-induced defects. We included this discussion in the manuscript as below:

      Lines 337-341:‘eIF2β protein levels are reduced at the 21-day-old; however, since a reduction in the eIF2β ameliorated milton knockdown-induced locomotor defects in aged flies (Figure 7), the reduction in eIF2β observed in the 21-day-old is not likely to negatively contribute to milton knockdown-induced defects.’

      The manuscript consists of several weaknesses in its data and explanation regarding translation.

      (1) The authors are likely misunderstanding the effect of phosphorylation of eIF2α on translation. The P-eIF2α is inhibitory for translation initiation. However, the authors seem to be mistaken that the down-regulation of P-eIF2α inhibits translation.

      We are sorry for our insufficient explanation in the previous version. As the reviewer pointed out, it is well known that the phosphorylated form of eIF2α inhibits translation initiation. Neuronal knockdown of milton caused a reduction in p-eIF2α (Figure 4J and K), and it also lowered translation (Figure 5); the relationship between these two events is currently unclear. We do not think that a reduction in the p-eIF2α suppressed translation; rather, we propose that the unbalance of expression levels of the components of eIF2 complexes negatively affects translation. We revised discussion sections to describe our interpretation more in detail as below:

      Line 368-378: ‘eIF2β is a component of eIF2, which meditates translational regulation and ISR initiation. When ISR is activated, phosphorylated eIF2α suppresses global translation and induces translation of ATF4, which mediates transcription of autophagy-related genes(39,40). Since ISR can positively regulate autophagy, we suspected that suppression of ISR underlies a reduction in autophagic protein degradation. We found neuronal knockdown of milton reduced phosphorylated eIF2α, suggesting that ISR is reduced (Figure 4). However, we also found that global translation was reduced (Figure 5). It may be possible that increased levels of eIF2β disrupt the eIF2 complex or alter its functions. The stoichiometric mismatch caused by an imbalance of eIF2 components may inhibit ISR induction. Supporting this model, we found that eIF2β upregulation reduced the levels of p-eIF2α (Figure 6).’

      We have revised the graphical abstract and removed the eIF2 complex since its role in the loss of proteostasis caused by milton knockdown has not been elucidated yet.

      (2) The result of polysome profiling in Figure 4H is implausible. By 10%-25% sucrose density gradient, polysomes are not expected to be observed. The authors should have used a gradient with much denser sucrose, such as 10-50%.

      Thank you for pointing it out. It was a mistake of 10-50%, and we apologize for the oversight. It was corrected (Figure 5).

      (3) Also on the polysome profiling, as in the method section, the authors seemed to fractionate ultra-centrifuged samples from top to bottom and then measured A260 by a plate reader. In that case, the authors should have provided a line plot with individual data points, not the smoothly connected ones in the manuscript.

      Thank you for pointing it out. We revised the graph (Figure 5).

      (4) For both the results from polysome profiling and puromycin incorporation (Figure 4H and I), the difference between control siRNA and Milton siRNA are subtle, if not nonexistent. This might arise from the lack of spatial resolution in their experiment as the authors used head lysate for these data but the ratio of Phospho-eIF2α/eIF2α only changes in the axons, based on their results in Figure 4E-G. The authors could have attempted to capture the spatial resolution for the axonal translation to see the difference between control siRNA and Milton siRNA.

      Thank you for your comment. We agree that it would be an interesting experiment, but it will take a considerable amount of time to analyze axonal translation with spatial resolution. We will try to include such analyses in the future. For this manuscript, we revised the discussion section to include the reviewer's suggestion as below;

      Lines 351-353: ‘Further analyses to dissect the effects of milton knockdown on proteostasis and translation in the cell body and axon by experiments with spatial resolution would be needed.’

      Recommendations for the authors:

      From the Reviewing Editor:

      As the Reviewing Editor, I have read your manuscript and the associated peer reviews. I have concerns about publishing this work in its current form. I think that your manuscript cannot claim to have found a novel function of eIF2beta because of technical uncertainties and conceptual problems that should be addressed.

      Thank you so much for your review and comments. We addressed all the concerns raised by the reviewers. Point-by-point responses are listed below.

      First, your manuscript is based partly on what appears to be a mistaken understanding of the mechanistic basis of the ISR. Specifically, eIF2 is a heterotrimeric complex of alpha, beta, and gamma subunits. When eIF2a is phosphorylated, the heterotrimer adopts a new conformation. This conformation directly binds and inhibits eIF2B, the decameric GEF that exchanges the GDP bound to the gamma subunit of the eIF2 complex for GTP. Unless I misunderstood your paper, you seem to propose that decreasing levels of phospho-eIF2a will inhibit translation, but this is backward from what we know about the ISR.

      Thank you for your insightful comment, and we are sorry for the confusion. We did not mean to propose that decreasing levels of phospho-eIF2_a_ inhibits translation. We apologize for our insufficient explanation, which might have caused a misunderstanding (Lines 312-318 in the original version). We agree with the reviewer that ‘mismatch due to elevated eIF2-beta could change the behavior of the ISR’. We revised the text in the result section as follows:

      Lines 259-264 (in the Result section) ‘Phosphorylation of eIF2α induces conformational changes in the eIF2 complex and inhibits global translation(36). To analyze the effects of milton knockdown on translation, we performed polysome gradient centrifugation to examine the level of ribosome binding to mRNA. Since p-eIF2α was downregulated, we hypothesized that milton knockdown would enhance translation. However, unexpectedly, we found that milton knockdown significantly reduced the level of mRNAs associated with polysomes (Figure 5A and B).’

      Lines 368-378 (in the Discussion section): ‘eIF2β is a component of eIF2, which meditates translational regulation and ISR initiation. When ISR is activated, phosphorylated eIF2α suppresses global translation and induces translation of ATF4, which mediates transcription of autophagy-related genes(39,40). Since ISR can positively regulate autophagy, we suspected that suppression of ISR underlies a reduction in autophagic protein degradation. We found neuronal knockdown of milton reduced phosphorylated eIF2α, suggesting that ISR is reduced (Figure 4). However, we also found that global translation was reduced (Figure 5). It may be possible that increased levels of eIF2β disrupt the eIF2 complex or alter its functions. The stoichiometric mismatch caused by an imbalance of eIF2 components may inhibit ISR induction. Supporting this model, we found that eIF2β upregulation reduced the levels of p-eIF2α (Figure 6).’

      It may be possible that a stoichiometric mismatch due to elevated eIF2-beta could change the behavior of the ISR, but your paper doesn't adequately address the expression levels of all three eIF2 subunits: alpha, beta, and gamma. The proteomic data shown in Fig 4B is unconvincing on its own because the changes in the beta subunit are subtle. The Western blot in Figure 4C suggests that the KD changes the mass or mobility of the beta subunit, and most importantly, there are no Western blots measuring the levels of eIF2a, eIF2a-phospho, or eIF2-gamma.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment and agree that the stoichiometric mismatch due to elevated eIF2β may interfere with ISR. We found overexpression of eIF2β lowered p-eIF2 alpha (Figure S2 in V1), which supports this model. We included this data in the main figure in the revised manuscript (Figure 6D) and revised the text as below:

      Lines 279-281: ‘Since milton knockdown reduced the p-eIF2α level (Figure 4K), we asked whether an increase in eIF2β affects p-eIF2α. Neuronal overexpression of eIF2β did not affect the eIF2α level but significantly decreased the p-eIF2α level (Figure 6D, E).’

      Expression data of eIF2α and eIF2γ from proteomic analyses has been extracted from proteome analyses and included as a table (Figure 4D). Western blots of phospho-eIF2a (Figure S1 in V1) in the main figure (Figure 4G). The result section was revised as below;

      Lines 242-245: ‘As for the other subunits of eIF2 complex, proteome analysis did not detect a significant difference in the protein levels of eIF2α and eIF2γ between milton knockdown and control flies at 7 and 21 days (Figure 4D).’

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      L125-128: In this section, while the efficiency of Milton knockdown is referenced from a previous publication, it is necessary to also mention that the Miro knockdown has been similarly reported in the literature. Additionally, the Methods section lacks details on the Miro RNAi line used, and Table 2 does not include the genotype for Miro RNAi. This information should be included for clarity and completeness.

      Thank you for pointing it out. Knockdown efficiency with this strain has been reported (Iijima-Ando et al., PLoS Genet, 2012). We revised the text to include citation and knockdown efficiency as follows:

      Lines 139-147: ‘There was no significant increase in ubiquitinated proteins in milton knockdown flies at 1-day old, suggesting that the accumulation of ubiquitinated proteins caused by milton knockdown is age-dependent (Figure S1). We also analyzed the effect of the neuronal knockdown of Miro, a partner of milton, on the accumulation of ubiquitin-positive proteins. Since severe knockdown of Miro in neurons causes lethality, we used UAS-Miro RNAi strain with low knockdown efficiency, whose expression driven by elav-GAL4 caused 30% reduction of Miro mRNA in head extract(24). Although there was a tendency for increased ubiquitin-positive puncta in Miro knockdown brains, the difference was not significant (Figure 1B, p>0.05 between control RNAi and Miro RNAi). These data suggest that the depletion of axonal mitochondria induced by milton knockdown leads to the accumulation of ubiquitinated proteins before neurodegeneration occurs.’

      L132-L136: The current phrasing in this section suggests an increase in ubiquitinated proteins for both Milton and Miro knockdowns. However, since there is no significant difference noted for Miro, it is incorrect to state an increase in ubiquitin-positive puncta. Furthermore, combining the results of Milton knockdown to claim an increase in ubiquitinated proteins prior to neurodegeneration is misleading. At the very least, the expression here needs to be moderated to accurately reflect the findings.

      Thank you for pointing it out. We revised the text as above.

      L137-L141: Results in Figure 1 indicate that Milton knockdown leads to an increase in ubiquitinated proteins at 14 days, while Miro knockdown shows no difference from the control at either 14 or 30 days. Conversely, both the control and Miro exhibit an increase in ubiquitinated proteins with aging, but this trend does not seem to apply to Milton knockdown. This observation suggests that Milton KD may not affect the changes in protein quality control associated with aging. It implies that Milton's function might be more related to protein homeostasis in younger cells, or that changes due to aging might overshadow the effects of Milton knockdown. These interpretations should be included in the Results or Discussion sections for a more comprehensive analysis.

      Thank you for your insightful comment. We revised the text to include those points as follows:

      Lines 152-153: ‘These results suggest that depletion of axonal mitochondria may have more impact on proteostasis in young neurons than in old neurons.’

      Lines 355-362: ‘The depletion of axonal mitochondria and accumulation of abnormal proteins are both characteristics of aged brains(37,38). Our results suggest that the loss of axonal mitochondria is an event upstream of proteostasis collapse during aging. Neuronal knockdown of milton had more impact on proteostasis in young neurons than the old neurons (Figure 1). Proteome analyses also showed that age-related pathways, such as immune responses, are enhanced in young flies with milton knockdown (Table 2). The reduction in axonal transport of mitochondria may be one of the triggering events of age-related changes and accelerates the onset of aging in the brain.’

      L143 : Please remove the erroneously included quotation mark.

      Thank you for pointing it out. We corrected it.

      L145-L147:

      - While it is understood that Milton knockdown results in a reduction of mitochondria in axons, as reported previously and seemingly indicated in Figure 1E, this paper repeatedly refers to axonal depletion of mitochondria. Therefore, it would be beneficial to quantitatively assess the number of mitochondria in the axonal terminals located in the lamina via electron microscopy. Such quantification would robustly reinforce the argument that mitochondrial absence in axons is a consequence of Milton knockdown.

      Thank you for pointing it out. We included quantitation of the number of mitochondria in the synaptic terminals (Figure 1E).

      The text and figure legend was revised accordingly:

      Lines 156-157: ‘As previously reported(24), the number of mitochondria in presynaptic terminals decreased in milton knockdown (Figure 1E).’

      - The knockdown of Milton is known to reduce mitochondrial transport from an early stage, but what about swelling? By observing swelling at 1 day and 14 days, it may be possible to confirm the onset of swelling and discuss its correlation with the accumulation of ubiquitinated proteins.

      Quantitation of axonal swelling has also been included (Figure 1F).

      We appreciate reviewer’s comments on the correlation between the accumulation of ubiquitinated proteins and axonal swelling. Axonal swelling was not observed at 3-days-old (Iijima-Ando et al., PLoS Genetics, 2012), indicating that axonal swelling is an age-dependent event. Dense materials are found in swollen axons more often than in normal axons, suggesting a positive correlation between disruption of proteostasis and axonal damage. It would be interesting to analyze the time course of events further; however, we feel it is beyond the scope of this manuscript. We revised the text as below to include this discussion:

      Lines 157-159: ‘The swelling of presynaptic terminals, characterized by the enlargement and roundness, was not reported at 3-day-old(24) but observed at this age with about 4% of total presynaptic terminals (Figure 1F, asterisks).’

      Lines 162-167: ‘Dense materials are rarely found in age-matched control neurons, indicating that milton knockdown induces abnormal protein accumulation in the presynaptic terminals (Figure 1G and H). In milton knockdown neurons, dense materials are found in swollen presynaptic terminals more often than in presynaptic terminals without swelling, suggesting a positive correlation between the disruption of proteostasis and axonal damage (Figure 1G).’

      Lines 362-365: ‘Disruption of proteostasis is expected to contribute neurodegeneration(38), and it would be interesting to analyze the sequence of protein accumulation and axonal degeneration in milton knockdown ((24,29) and Figure 1) in detail with higher time resolution.’

      L147-L151: Though Figures 1F and 1G provide qualitative representations, it is advisable to quantitatively assess whether dense materials significantly accumulate. Such quantitative analysis would be required to verify the accumulation of dense materials in the context of the study.

      Thank you for pointing it out. We included quantitation of the number of neurons with dense material (Figure 1G). We revised the manuscript as follows:

      Line 161-163: ‘Dense materials are rarely found in age-matched control neurons, indicating that milton knockdown induces abnormal protein accumulation in the presynaptic terminals (Figure 1G and H).’

      Regarding Figure 1B, C:

      - Even though the count of puncta in the whole brain appears to be fewer than 400, the magnification of the optic lobe suggests a substantial presence of puncta. Please clarify in the Methods section what constitutes a puncta and whether the quantification in the whole brain is based on a 2D or 3D analysis. Detail the methodology used for quantification.

      Thank you for your comment. We revised the method section to include more details as below:

      Lines 434-437: ‘Quantitative analysis was performed using ImageJ (National Institutes of Health) with maximum projection images derived from Z-stack images acquired with same settings. Puncta was identified with mean intensity and area using ImageJ.’

      - What about 1-day-old specimens? Does Milton knockdown already show an increase in ubiquitinated protein accumulation at this early stage? Investigating whether ubiquitin-protein accumulation is involved in aging promotion or is already prevalent during developmental stages is a necessary experiment.

      Thank you for your comment. We carried out immunostaining with an anti-ubiquitin antibody in the brains at 1-day-old. No significant difference was detected between the control and milton knockdown. This result has been included as Figure S1 in the revised manuscript. The result section was revised as below:

      Line 136-139 ‘There was no significant increase in ubiquitinated proteins in milton knockdown flies at 1-day old, suggesting that the accumulation of ubiquitinated proteins caused by milton knockdown is age-dependent (Figure S1).’

      For Figure 1E: In the Electron Microscopy section of the Methods, define how swollen axons were identified and describe the quantification methodology used.

      Thank you for your comment. Swollen axons are, unlike normal axons, round in shape and enlarged. We revised the text as below;

      Lines 157-160: ‘The swelling of presynaptic terminals, characterized by the enlargement and roundness, was not reported at 3-day-old(24) but observed at this age with about 4% of total presynaptic terminals (Figure 1F, asterisks).’

      Lines 683-684, Figure 1 legend: ‘Swollen presynaptic terminals (asterisks in (F)), characterized by the enlargement and higher circularity, were found more frequently in milton knockdown neurons.’

      L218-L219: Throughout the text, the expression 'eIF2β is "upregulated" in response to Milton knockdown' is frequently used. However, considering the presented results, it might be more accurate to interpret that under the condition of Milton knockdown, eIF2β is not undergoing degradation but rather remains stable.

      Thank you for pointing it out. We replaced ‘upregulated’ with ‘increased’ throughout the text.

      L234-L235: On what basis is the conclusion drawn that there is a reduction? Given that three experiments have been conducted, it would be possible and more convincing to quantify the results to determine if there is a significant decrease.

      Thank you for pointing it out. We quantified the AUC of polysome fraction and carried out statistical analysis. There is a significant decrease in polysome in milton knockdown, and this result has been included in Figure 5B. We revised the figure and the legend accordingly.

      L236: 5H-> 4H

      Thank you for pointing it out, and we are sorry for the confusion. We corrected it.

      L238-L239: Since there is no significant difference observed, it may not be accurate to interpret a reduction in puromycin incorporation.

      Thank you for pointing it out. As described above, quantification of polysome fractions showed that milton knockdown significantly reduce polysome (Figure 5B). We revised the manuscript as below;

      Lines 263-264: ‘However, unexpectedly, we found that milton knockdown significantly reduced the level of mRNAs associated with polysomes (Figure 5A and B).’

      Figure 5D and Figure 6D: Climbing assays have been conducted, but I believe experiments should also be performed to examine whether overexpression or heterozygous mutants of eIF2β induce or suppress degeneration.

      Thank you for pointing it out. We analyzed the eyes with eIF2_β_ overexpression for neurodegeneration. Although there was a tendency of elevated neurodegeneration in the retina with eIF2_β_ overexpression, the difference between control and eIF2_β_ overexpression did not reach statistical significance (Figure S2). This result has been included as Figure S2 in the revised manuscript, and the following sentences have been included in the text:

      Lines 288-293: ‘We asked if eIF2β overexpression causes neurodegeneration, as depletion of axonal mitochondria in the photoreceptor neurons causes axon degeneration in an age-dependent manner(24). eIF2β overexpression in photoreceptor neurons tends to increase neurodegeneration in aged flies, while it was not statistically significant (p>0.05, Figure S2).’

      L271-L272: The results in Figure 6B are surprising. I anticipated a greater increase compared to the Milton knockdown alone. While p62 appears to be reduced, it is not clear why these results lead to the conclusion that lowering eIF2β rescues autophagic impairment. Please add a discussion section to address this point.

      Thank you for pointing it out. We apologize for the unclear description of the result. Milton knockdown flies show p62 accumulation (Figure 2), and deleting one copy of eIF2beta in milton knockdown background reduced p62 accumulation (Figure 7C). We revised the text as below:

      Lines 307-315: ‘Neuronal knockdown of milton causes accumulation of autophagic substrate p62 in the Triton X-100-soluble fraction (Figure 2B), and we tested if lowering eIF2β ameliorates it. We found that eIF2β heterozygosity caused a mild increase in LC3-I levels and decreases in LC3-II levels, resulting in a significantly lower LC3-II/LC3-I ratio in milton knockdown flies (Figure 7B). eIF2β heterozygosity decreased the p62 level in the Triton X-100-soluble fraction in the brains of milton knockdown flies (Figure 7C). The p62 level in the SDS-soluble fraction, which is not sensitive to milton knockdown (Figure 2B), was not affected (Figure 7C). These results suggest that suppression of eIF2β ameliorates the impairment of autophagy caused by milton knockdown.’

      L369: Please specify the source of the anti-ubiquitin antibody used.

      Thank you for pointing it out. We included the antibody information in the method section.

      Figure 7: While the relationship between Milton knockdown and the eIF2β and eIF2α proteins has been elucidated through the authors' efforts, I would like to see an investigation into whether eIF2β is upregulated and eIF2α phosphorylation is reduced in simply aged Drosophila. This would help us understand the correlation between aging and eIF2 protein dynamics.

      Thank you for your comment. We agree that it is an important question, and we are working on it. However, we feel that it is beyond the scope of the current manuscript.

      L645-L646: If the mushroom body is identified using mito-GFP, then include mito-GFP in the genotype listed in Supplementary Table 2.

      We are sorry for the oversight. We corrected it in Supplementary Table 2.

      Additionally, while it is presumed that the mito-GFP signal decreases in axons with Milton RNAi, how was the lobe tips area accurately selected for analysis? Please include these details along with a comprehensive description of the quantification methodology in the Methods section.

      Thank you for your comment. Although the mito-GFP signal in the axon is weak in the milton knockdown neurons, it is sufficient to distinguish the mushroom body structure from the background. We revised the method section to include this information in the method section:

      Line 437-438: ‘For eIF2α and p-eIF2α immunostaining, the mushroom body was detected by mitoGFP expression.’

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      Referee #3

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      Summary:

      Reported here is an elegant study on the role of GLE1 and its most common pathological variant through carefully constructed mouse models. GLE1 has been studied in cellular and zebrafish models as an important co-factor that regulates RNA processing and response to stress but investigations into the impact of the FinMajor mutation of GLE1 in mammalian in vivo models is lacking. Zárybnický et al. establish GLE1 KO and FinMajor variant mouse models through CRISPR/Cas9 gene editing and replicate early lethality of GLE1 KO models. The authors demonstrate this is due to augmented polarisation of blastocysts pre-gastrulation. The knock-in FinMajor mouse survives until mid-adulthood without complication but die suddenly. The rest of the study characterises the FinMajor mouse by examining known phenotypes of this model and more. Cell cycle arrest, augmented stress granule response and DNA damage repair are successfully replicated in MEFs. The authors reveal that MEFs display a prominent senescent state. Whilst polyA mRNA localisation is surprisingly unchanged, RNA and protein translation is disrupted as expected. In vivo, motor neuron number, organisation and branching is impaired, mirroring other studies, but the functional consequences of this in PFQ KI mice is unclear. The authors break ground by examining sympathetic nervous system development and identify neural crest-derived tissue as being selectively sensitive to the GLE1 mutation where increased mitotic arrest was apparent in mutant mice. Consequently, the authors identify cardiac innervation by sympathetic neurons, which are derived from neural crest tissue, to be augmented in FinMajor mice. It is unclear whether this is the cause of sudden death in mid-adulthood. The two mouse models presented here provide opportunity to study GLE1 absence or mutation in mammalian development at multiple levels. Overall, the FinMajor KI mouse model presents with milder phenotype than predicted but do display disease relevant phenotypes and the study has uncovered novel areas of research to pursue.

      Major comments:

      none

      Minor comments:

      1. Based on the RNA sequencing data, there appear to be issues with high variance and data normalization that need attention. The PCA results are a little concerning and the volcano plot shows an unusual shape-with massive fold changes dominating-suggesting that low-count genes may not have been adequately filtered out, potentially skewing the analysis. It's recommended to set a minimum count threshold (e.g., 5 or 10 counts) to exclude low-expression genes and to consider log₂ fold change shrinkage methods like apeglm to adjust for variability in low-count genes. Performing exploring methods like RUVSeq could help regress out unwanted variance, especially given the inherent variability in E3.5 embryos and if increasing replicates isn't feasible.
      2. Do the gene expression changes identified in GLE1 KO blastocysts hold significance in GLE1 KI mice? Augmented function of GLE1 may induce both loss of function as well as gain of toxic function and so transcriptionally they may appear as separate disorders. However, it would be worthwhile testing by qPCR the expression levels of the most differentially regulated genes.
      3. What is the expression profile of Kcnv2 in the developing spinal cord of PFQ KI mice? Or in the heart? Is the MN organisation / cardiac innervation a feature of neurotransmitter receptor misexpression or an issue of morphogen gradient as is mentioned in the discussion.
      4. MN disorganisation is seen in LCCS1 patients and in zebrafish model of GLE1FinMajor with dramatic consequences on development. MN organisation is changed in FinMajor KI mice but the functional consequences of these changes are not addressed. Do the mice display motor impairment?
      5. It is surprising that polyA mRNA localisation is not affected in PFQ KI cells. I'm glad the authors performed oligoDT FISH on embryonic spinal cords in addition to MEFs. However, in keeping with the selective vulnerabilities of TH+ chromaffin cells to cell cycle disruption, I am curious whether these cells would demonstrate RNA dysregulation. In addition to analysis of global mRNA localisation with oligoDT, it would be good to explore selective mRNA localisation-perhaps those genes implicated in GLE1 KO eg Vimentin, or genes implicated in cell cycle arrest.
      6. Please include a description of how PFQ knock in is predicted to impact oligomerisation of GLE1? Differential attributes have been given to the various GLE1 domains (PMID: 32981894). Are the specific phenotypes observed in-keeping with predicted changes to GLE1 function?
      7. Is there a sex bias to the sudden death phenotype observed in PFQ KI mice? Given the deficit of cardiac stroke volume in female mice, does this explain the trend for premature death? Additionally, please use 'sex' instead of 'gender' when referring to male and female mice.
      8. Other minor issues:

      a. Figure 1:

      i. Typo in figure 1f (OCT3/4 not /44).

      ii. What do white arrowheads indicate?

      b. Figure 2:

      i. The padjusted heat map is from 0 to 1. Please only include GO terms that were significant.

      c. Supp figure 4:

      i. why was adult heart chosen to measure protein expression of GLE1? What are the expression differences of GLE1 between heart and SC?

      Significance

      This is a carefully constructed study with thorough examination and well-presented data. The PFQ knock-in mouse model is an elegant solution to study the FinMajor variant of GLE1 that will be a useful resource for the community. The paper is of broad interest due the breadth and strength of experimentation including characterisation of blastocysts, MEFs, developing nervous system and of cardiac functions. The mouse model phenocopies many of the known phenotypes of GLE1 dysfunction and builds upon these thereby providing an excellent platform from which to undertake further examination. However, I feel that the manuscript is disconnected in parts (how does GLE1 KO signatures relate to GLE1 KI? How do MEF phenotypes relate to in vivo phenotypes?) and does not go far enough to describe how PFQ knock-in affects GLE1 function or how disrupted GLE1 function leads to the observed phenotypes in nervous system development. These questions may be beyond the scope of this paper, which successfully establishes the first mammalian model to study GLE1 dysfunction. As such, I have made minor comments that I hope can be addressed. Furthermore, given that this is a descriptive study and that the key phenotypes used in the current title have mostly been described before, I suggest that the authors use their running title of 'Modeling LCCS1 in mouse', or similar, to reflect the scope of this paper. The paper fills a gap in our understanding of mammalian GLE1 dysfunction, demonstrating that PFQ knock-in likely leads to augmented GLE1 function rather than loss of function and provides novel areas for exploring sympathetic nervous system development and cardiac innervation in the context of LCCS1. As such, it provides an incremental and methodological advance. The paper will be of interest to a broad audience of basic and clinical researchers.

      This reviewer's expertise is based in stem cell modelling of neurodevelopment and of neurodegenerative diseases.

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      Referee #2

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      Summary:

      Provide a short summary of the findings and key conclusions (including methodology and model system(s) where appropriate).

      In this manuscript, Zarybnicky et al characterize their two mouse models of GLE1 knockout, or knock-in of a disease-causing variant of GLE1. The authors show that knockout causes early embryonic lethality, while the GLE1 variant causes disturbed tissue and organ organization with induced mid-adulthood sudden death. In particular effects on neural crest-derived tissues, such as innervation of the heart, are detected. The authors use mainly immunocytochemistry to visualize their findings, complemented with bulk RNA sequencing, quantitative PCR, western blot, and electron microscopy. The study is extremely comprehensive and technically sound.

      Major comments:

      • Are the key conclusions convincing?

      Key conclusions and data are convincing. - Should the authors qualify some of their claims as preliminary or speculative, or remove them altogether?

      The authors' fifth 'Highlight' reads "Neural crest-derived tissues represent a new target of GLE1FinMajor and GLE1-related disorders". This is not shown or clearly touched upon in the manuscript and should be removed altogether.

      On page 6 (Last part of "Gle1-/- blastocyst show transcriptional...", the authors claim "This together with altered cellular adhesion suggests...". I cannot find that cellular adhesion is addressed or experimentally investigated in the present manuscript. Hence, this needs to be shown, or text needs to be re-written. - Would additional experiments be essential to support the claims of the paper? Request additional experiments only where necessary for the paper as it is, and do not ask authors to open new lines of experimentation.

      There are some quantifications as well as improved image quality that are needed to support their claims. - First of all, it looks like the adrenal medulla is smaller in GlePFQ/PFQ mice in Fig. 7A. Is this correct? The authors should quantify the size, since this could be of importance to understand Gle1, but also to determine if the decrease in number of chromaffin cells is due to the size of the medulla, or an actual decrease in the fraction of chromaffin cell number. Since the authors display their results as area or cell count per section, the size/total number of cells are not taken into account. - Is there a rationale for only investigating the chromaffin cells, and not the sympathoblasts in the adrenal gland? Albeit the population of sympathoblasts are profoundly smaller than that of chromaffin cells, it would be good to see if also this neural crest-derived cell population is affected. - Did the authors investigate the hearts of the mice that died suddenly during mid-adulthood? Since the sympathetic patterning of the heart is severely affected during development, analyzing the hearts to find the possible cause of death could improve the conclusions and add to the biology of this manuscript. I do understand that if hearts have not been investigated or preserved from experiments already done, it would be major work to do so, and not required. - Are the suggested experiments realistic in terms of time and resources? It would help if you could add an estimated cost and time investment for substantial experiments.

      Most edits suggested here are discussion points, image reconstructions and quantifications, hence, should not be particularly time consuming. - Are the data and the methods presented in such a way that they can be reproduced?

      There are a few places where some clarification is needed. However, for the majority of the manuscript, the data and methods are adequately presented.

      Figure 1E: "Individual data points generated from each embryo" - is n=4 from four different embryos? Or four blasts from one embryo? Or something else? Please clarify.

      Figure 3G: Is n=6 for both groups together? Or n=6 per group? - Are the experiments adequately replicated and statistical analysis adequate?

      To my ability to judge these points, experiments and statistical analysis are adequately replicated.

      Minor comments:

      • Specific experimental issues that are easily addressable.

      Fig. 2: It would be good with a heat map with top hits marked, to quickly visualize the core data and genes for the reader, without the need to open the supplemental file with full data list.

      Figure 4E: Why are there no p-values for the three F-action graphs, when such values are presented for all other markers?

      Figure 1E-F: For quantification, how many cells are double positive for CDX2/GATA6 and OCT3/4/GATA6/NANOG?

      Figure 5B: It is very difficult to assess the difference in perinuclear stress granules when presented in the same graph together with cytoplasmic and total. Would it be good to present separately to enable this, or is the difference so small that it is 'biologically irrelevant'?

      Figure 7C: T1-T4/SG quantification shows a big difference between the groups. This is not visible at all in the images. Are they not representative?

      Figure 6E: Are the arrowheads correct? Should they be at the exact same spot in both images? It is also extremely difficult to understand what the authors have assessed and measured. To my eye, there are no differences in appearance between the two groups/images.

      Figure 8 and corresponding text: In Fig. 8A, only results for the males are shown, however, in the text, only differences in the females are discussed. Could this be expanded/edited/clarified? - Are prior studies referenced appropriately?

      Yes. - Are the text and figures clear and accurate?

      A number of figure references are wrong. Double check and edit.

      Figure 7A: Are the SOX10+ cells quantified from a specific axis level of the embryo, i.e., is it a specific crest derivative?

      Text related to Figure 4E: The authors write "...slightly downregulated while Pai-1...". Since expression of the SASP genes are virtually absent in the mutant MEFs, the authors should remove or re-phrase from using 'slightly'.

      The authors write: "The cell morphology of Gle1PFQ/PFQ MEFs differed by eye from WT...". Clarify if this is referring to size, and/or something else?

      In Figure 3E, the authors show ZO-1. This marker is not mentioned or explained either in Figure legend or text. - Do you have suggestions that would help the authors improve the presentation of their data and conclusions?

      Figure 4D: The images are poor and it is very difficult to see the results.

      Supplementary Fig. 11 would benefit from providing some magnified/zoomed in images as well.

      Supplementary Figure 8: It is impossible to see which cells are positive and how they look. Magnifications/zoom is necessary.

      Significance

      • Describe the nature and significance of the advance (e.g. conceptual, technical, clinical) for the field.

      The authors create new models to study the biology of wild-type Gle1 as well as its disease-causing variant. These add to existing models and enables experiments and studies not previously possible to perform. Conceptuallt and biologically, the authors provide findings on Gle1 not previously presented. Since this gene is disease-causing, the knowledge provided in this manuscript can be used to build upon. - Place the work in the context of the existing literature (provide references, where appropriate).

      To my knowledge, the authors use existing literature and data to design their work, and their results add and complement. - State what audience might be interested in and influenced by the reported findings.

      This work is interesting for scientists working on Gle1-related biology, the very earliest time points of embryogenesis, heart development, neural crest and LCCS1. - Define your field of expertise with a few keywords to help the authors contextualize your point of view. Indicate if there are any parts of the paper that you do not have sufficient expertise to evaluate.

      Neural crest biology from delamination and onwards, and disease modeling using ex vitro methods.

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      Referee #1

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      Several severe diseases, in particular lethal congenital contracture syndrome type 1 (LCCS1), are caused by a mutation in the GLE1 gene that leads to the inclusion of three additional amino acids (PFQ) into the mutant gene product. GLE acts as a co-factor for RNA-dependent DEAD-box ATPases, and its function in nuclear RNA export and protein translation has been characterized by previous studies. However, the mechanisms how dysfunction of GLE1 leads to the specific cellular defects in diseases associated with GLE mutations are not well understood. The authors have generated both GLE1 full knockout and GLE1 knockin mice, in which the PFQ expansion is included. GLE1 knockout mice are embryonic lethal, and the knockin mice do not show major defects but die suddenly between 15 and 40 weeks of age.

      Specific comments:

      1. The data shown in Fig. 4D are not convincing. SA-β-Gal-expression is hardly detectable, the number of investigated cultures is low and it is unclear whether these data allow conclusions on pathological cellular senescence. This should be based on additional parameters such as altered proteasome function and altered protein turnover.
      2. Most of the cellular assays for investigating cellular defects in the GLE-PFQ/PFQ cells have been done with mouse embryonic fibroblasts, and unfortunately not with primary neuronal cells such as motoneurons or sympathetic neurons that seem to be prominently affected in human patients with the same mutation. Since the GLE1-PFQ/PFQ mice do not show defects in body size or any severe symptoms pointing to defects in connective tissue, it is unclear whether the alterations observed in MEFs are representative on the disease phenotype. In Fig. 5, the authors show that there are apparently no defects in nuclear export of mRNAs in the MEFs. This does not exclude the possibility that such defects occur in primary neurons. This should be adequately addressed, ideally with additional analyses using primary spinal motoneurons derived from this mouse model.
      3. The authors show by puromycinilation that protein synthesis is altered (Fig. S6A and B). The gel shown in Fig. S6B is not convincing, it appears as if differential blotting efficacies contribute to the appearance of the blot. This needs to be performed in a more convincing manner with higher n. Moreover, such analyses should also be done with primary neuronal cultures, in order to test whether neuronal cells are more severe or diffentially affected in comparison to fibroblasts by the GLE1 mutation.
      4. Previous studies, for example the manuscript by Bresson et al., Molecular Cell 80: 470-484, 2020, have shown that stress-induced translation inhibition involves DEAD-box translation initiation factor, in particular DED1, which interacts with eIF4A. The translation inhibition phenotype observed in this study appears very similar to that observed in these previous studies, and the question arises whether GLE1 can also modify the interaction with DED1 and its role in modulating translation via eIF4A. A clear analysis of the mechanisms how GLE1 is involved in modulating protein synthesis in fibroblasts and also in cells that seem to be more severely affected, such as neurons, would highly strengthen the impact of this paper.
      5. The data shown on the quantification of motoneurons and sympathetic neurons are not convincing. In Fig. S7B, a minor reduction of ISL1/2 positive cells is observed at E11.5, before the period of physiological cell death starts in mice. Since these mice day at postnatal stages, it appears essential that the authors quantify motoneuron numbers in the adult spinal cord in 20 week old mutant mice. Previous studies have shown that mice can live normally with loss of more than 50% of spinal motoneurons (for example Jablonka et al., HMG 9, 341-46, 2000), and it is unclear whether the mild loss of motoneurons is a cause of death in these animals.
      6. The same is true for the loss of the sympathetic fibers. Changes shown in Fig. 7C and D appear very low, and clear conclusions can only be drawn when the number of neurons are quantitated. Moreover, the data shown in Fig. 7 are from embryonic stages, whereas death of these mice occurs at postnatal stages between 15 and 40 weeks. Therefore, the morphology and cell numbers in sympathetic neurons at these critical postnatal stage might be much more relevant than the number of embryonic neurons before the stage of physiological cell death.
      7. The data shown on altered arborization in the periphery are not convincing. Such data have to be based on highly systematic 3D analyses, which have not been performed in this study. In addition, denervation of skeletal muscle or loss of sympathetic terminals in the heart ventricles appear much more relevant. These analyses need to be expanded. It would also be interesting to know how these mice at a stage when sudden death occurs, react to sympathomimetic drugs or inhibitors of noradrenergic receptors. I also do not understand which the authors have not measured adrenaline levels in the circulation of these mice, in order to find out whether the morphological changes in the adrenal gland, as shown in Fig. 7A, are of functional significance.

      Minor point: The data shown in Fig. S6A and B are highly important and should be shifted to the main part of the manuscript.

      Referees cross-commenting

      I agree with all comments that have been made by reviewer 2 and 3.

      Significance

      These mouse models will certainly be very useful for this research field, and the characterization of the knockout mouse and, at least in part, also of the knockin mouse model is well done and a significant contribution to understand the physiological function of GLE1. However, the manuscript falls short in explaining the cell type specificity of the disease mechanisms for several types of neurons. Moreover, some of the analyses on the losses of specific cell populations, in particular motoneurons and sympathetic neurons, are technically not sound and not convincing. The paper would highly benefit from revisions.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Point-by-point response to the public review:

      General Comment: “Using computational modeling, this manuscript explores the effect of growth feedback on the performance of gene networks capable of adaptation. The authors selected 425 hypothetical synthetic circuits that were shown to achieve nearly perfect adaptation in two earlier computational studies (see Ma et al. 2009, and Shi et al. 2017). They examined the effects of cell growth feedback by introducing additional terms to the ordinary differential equation-based models, and performed numerical simulations to check the retainment and the loss of the adaptation responses of the circuits in the presence of growth feedback. The authors show that growth feedback can disrupt the gene network adaptation dynamics in different ways, and report some exceptional core motifs which allow for robust performance in the presence of growth feedback. They also used a metric to establish a scaling law between a circuit robustness measure and the strength of growth feedback. These results have important implications in the field of synthetic biology, where unforeseen interactions between designed gene circuits and the host often disrupt the desired behavior. The paper’s conclusions are supported by their simulation results, although these are presented in their summary formats and it would be useful for the community if the detailed results for each topology were available as a supplementary file or through the authors’ GitHub repository.”

      We are grateful for the referee’s positive evaluation of our work. We have updated our GitHub and OSF repositories with detailed results for each topology. Additionally, we have included other simulation codes, result data, and detailed explanations in these two repositories that may be of interest to our readers.

      Strength 1: “This work included a detailed investigation of the reasons for adaptation failure upon introducing cell growth to the systems. The comprehensiveness of the analysis makes the work stand out among studies of functional screening of network topologies of gene regulation.”

      We are grateful for the referee’s positive assessment of our work, notably the recognition of the ‘detailed investigation’ we conducted, and the ‘comprehensiveness of the analysis’ we provided.

      Strength 2: “The authors’ approaches for assessment of robustness, such as the survival ratio Q, can be useful for a wide range of topologies beyond adaptation. The scaling law obtained with those approaches is interesting.”

      We are grateful for the referee’s positive evaluation of our defined factors for assessing circuit robustness. We also appreciate the acknowledgment of the “interesting” nature of the scaling law we discovered using the assessment factor R.

      Weaknesses 1: “The title suggests that the work investigates the ’effects of growth feedback on gene circuits’. However, the performance of ’nearly perfect adaptation’ was chosen for the majority of the work, leaving the question of whether the authors’ conclusion regarding the effects of growth feedback is applicable to other functional networks.”

      We agree that our present title can be too broad, and we have changed it from “Effects of growth feedback on gene circuits: A dynamical understanding” to “Effects of growth feedback on adaptive gene circuits: A dynamical understanding”. Although we have some brief results and discussions on the gene circuits with bistability, we admit that most of our results and discussions are focused on circuits that have adaptation.

      The new title is more specific and should be a more appropriate summary of the paper.

      Weaknesses 2: “This work relies extensively on an earlier study, evaluating only a selected set of 425 topologies that were shown to give adaptive responses (Shi et al., 2017). This limited selection has two potential issues. First, as the authors mentioned in the introduction, growth feedback can also induce emerging dynamics even without existing function-enabling gene circuits, as an example of the ”effects of growth feedback on gene circuits”. Limiting the investigation to only successful circuits for adaptation makes it unclear whether growth feedback can turn the circuits that failed to produce adaptation by themselves into adaptation-enabling circuits. Secondly, as the Shi et al. (2017) study also used numerical experiments to achieve their conclusions about successful topologies, it is unclear whether the numerical experiments in the present study are compatible with the earlier work regarding the choice of equation forms and ranges of parameter values. The authors also assumed that all readers have sufficient understanding of the 425 topologies and their derivation before reading this paper.”

      We agree with the reviewer that several issues need to be clarified in our new manuscript. We have added new discussions for all of them.

      We agree with the reviewer that growth feedback could turn the non-adaptive circuits into adaptationenabling circuits, and this indeed presents a compelling topic for future research. We have added the following discussions to our paper, talking about a relevant matter. We find that in our simulated dataset, there are cases where a higher degree of growth feedback can restore the adaptation that has been lost in a circuit. However, as we discussed in this new paragraph, a comprehensive study in the direction of turning non-adaptive circuits into adaptation-enabling circuits will “require entirely different approaches for sampling circuit parameters and selecting candidate network topologies, demanding significantly high computational costs.” Given that this topic extends beyond the scope of the current paper, we leave this matter to future research.

      “Although the primary focus of this paper is on how growth feedback can undermine an originally adaptive circuit and how to design circuits that are robust against such feedback, our simulated dataset reveals instances where growth feedback can benefit the circuit within certain ranges. Specifically, we identified 2,092 circuits across 306 different topologies where adaption, lost at an intermediate level of growth feedback, is restored at higher levels. This is 1.4% of all circuits tested. We anticipate that additional circuits exhibiting this loss-and-recovery behavior exist, as our sampling of six discrete levels of k<sub>g</sub> (0,0.2,0.4,0.6,0.8,1.0) might have overlooked numerous cases. This result again suggests the possible advantages of growth feedback in gene circuits (Tan et al., 2009; Nevozhay et al., 2012; Deris et al., 2013; Feng et al., 2014; Melendez-Alvarez and Tian, 2022). A comprehensive study into how growth feedback can endow or enhance adaption in circuits would require entirely different approaches for sampling circuit parameters and selecting candidate network topologies, demanding significantly high computational costs. Given that this topic extends beyond the scope of the current paper, we leave this matter to future research.”

      We have added the following discussions about the reasoning behind using the 425 network topologies selected from the study Shi et al. (2017).

      “We use these 425 network topologies from the study (Shi et al., 2017), avoiding redundancy with established results. Due to the unique focus of our research on the effects of growth feedback and the need to evaluate quantitative ratios of robust circuits among all functional ones, we have chosen to use a 20-fold increase in the number of random parameter sets for each network topology compared to the simulations in (Shi et al., 2017). This approach makes it computationally prohibitive to scan all possible 16,038 three-node circuits. We carefully follow the settings in (Shi et al., 2017), which also analyzed TRNs with the AND logic as in this paper. Detailed descriptions of our simulation experiments are provided in the Methods section. To make our results more convincing, we have adopted a set of adaptation criteria that are stricter than those used in (Shi et al., 2017). Consequently, the ratio of adaptive circuits is somewhat lower in our study, with 4 out of the 425 network topologies not demonstrating adaptation.”

      Other than the more strict adaptation criteria and much larger sampling sizes, as we mentioned in this paragraph, we have carefully followed the simulation details of the study Shi et al. (2017). This includes but is not limited to: the dynamical equations (when k<sub>g</sub> = 0), the input signals, the scales and ranges of the circuit parameters to be randomly sampled, and the sampling method (Latin hypercube sampling). One of the authors of the current paper was also the first author of the study Shi et al. (2017), who helped us verify the details of simulations (among many other contributions). These identical settings justify our usage of the established results with the 425 network topologies.

      To provide more information about these 425 network topologies, We have added the following introduction. It introduces the structural features of the networks, especially the shared core motifs for adaptation. In our GitHub and OSF repositories, we have also provided relevant data about the 425 topologies, including the topology structures and the parameter sets we scanned.

      “These topologies can be classified into two families based on the core topology: networks with a negative feedback loop (NFBL) and networks with an incoherent feed-forward loop (IFFL) (Shi et al., 2017). More specifically, there are 206 network topologies in the NFBL family. All of these NFBL topologies have a negative feedback loop for node B. This negative feedback loop can be formed by the loop from node B to A and back to B (such as the circuit shown in Fig. 1 (a)), by node B to C and back to B, or by a longer route, from node B to A and then to C and back to B. There is always a self-activation link from B to B in all these 206 NFBL networks. There are 219 network topologies in the IFFL family. All of them have two feed-forward pathways from the input node A to the output node C. One pathway goes from node A to C directly, while the other involves node B in the middle. One of the pathways is activating while the other one is inhibitory.”

      Weaknesses 3: “The authors’ model does not describe the impact of growth via a biological mechanism: they model growth as an additional dilution rate and calculate growth rate based on a phenomenological description with growth rate occurring at a maximum (k<sub>g</sub>) scaled by the circuit ’burden’ b(t). Therefore, the authors’ model does not capture potential growth rate changes in parameter values (e.g., synthetic protein production falls with increasing growth rate; see Scott & Hwa, 2023).”

      In our paper, we consider dilution due to cell growth as the dominant factor of growth feedback. Here we compared the adaptive circuits under no-growth conditions and their ability to maintain their adaptive behaviors after dilution into a fresh medium, which mediated a significant dilution to the circuits. This is based on our previous work, Zhang, et al. Nature chemical biology 16.6 (2020): 695-701. We agree that an increased growth rate can change synthetic protein production. However, the dynamic roles of the dilution and growthaffected production rate should be analogous, given that they both act as inhibitory factors arising from cell growth as mentioned by the reviewer. Still, we agree that taking the growth effect on the production rate into account would provide a more comprehensive study, but it is beyond the scope of the present work. We have added the following paragraph in the Discussion section of our paper.

      “In our paper, we consider dilution due to cell growth as the dominant factor of growth feedback. Here we compared the adaptive circuits under no-growth conditions and their ability to maintain their adaptive behaviors after dilution into a fresh medium, which mediated a significant dilution to the circuits. This is based on our previous work (Zhang et al. (2020)). However, growth feedback is inherently complex (Klumpp et al. (2009)). For instance, an increased growth rate can change protein synthesis rate (Hintsche and Klumpp (2013); Scott and Hwa (2023)), and cell growth rates can affect the distribution of protein expression in cell populations (Gouda et al. (2019)). In our paper, we concentrate on a simplified model with dilution, which we consider to have captured the dominant factor. The dynamic roles of the dilution and growth-affected production rate should be analogous, given that they both act as inhibitory factors arising from cell growth. Incorporating the impact of growth rate on protein synthesis into our model would offer a more comprehensive analysis, a task beyond the scope of this paper but presenting an intriguing opportunity for future research to address the complexities of growth feedback.”

      Weaknesses 4: “The authors made several claims about the bifurcations (infinite-period, saddle-node, etc) underlying the abrupt changes leading to failures of adaptations. There is a lack of evidence supporting these claims. Both local and global bifurcations can be demonstrated with semi-analytic approaches such as numerical continuation along with investigations of eigenvalues of the Jacobian matrix. The claims based on ODE solutions alone are not sound.”

      After our further simulations and verification, we found that most of the bifurcation-induced failures we mentioned in type-V and type-VI failures should be categorized as bistability or multistability-induced failures. They are still abrupt switching between adaptive and non-adaptive states, as we described in the previous version of the manuscript. However, they are actually still far away from the bifurcation points at the critical k<sub>g</sub>. We have corrected all relevant descriptions and figures, including panel Fig. 4 (c) and its captions. We have added the following paragraph in the paper to explain this issue.

      “One might expect bifurcations to play an important role in many type-V and type-VI failures. However, in our simulations, failures precisely at the bifurcation point are not observed. This is because the bifurcation points under consideration, such as fold bifurcations, are where one of the attraction basins diminishes to zero. For a failure to occur exactly at the bifurcation point, the initial condition would need to coincide precisely with the infinitesimally small basin just before it vanishes. More realistically, failures almost always largely precede the exact bifurcation point. They happen while the basin is still contracting and the basin boundary crosses the initial condition or O<sub>1</sub>. An example is shown in Fig. 4(b), where bistability persists, yet the lighter orange basin with a larger O<sub>1</sub>(C) cannot be reached as the boundary shifts away from the initial condition A<sub>0</sub> and B<sub>0</sub>. As another example, in Fig. 4 (c) from a different circuit, the higher O<sub>2</sub>(C) state disappears at k<sub>g</sub> ≈ 0.012 and switches to a lower O<sub>2</sub>(C), but this point is not a bifurcation.

      It is the point where the stable O<sub>1</sub> continuously crosses the basin boundary of O<sub>2</sub>.”

      Our further simulations have verified the existence of the oscillation-related bifurcations. We have added a new appendix discussing the phenomena associated with them in more detail.

      Weaknesses 5: “The impact of biochemical noise is not evaluated in this work; the author’s analysis is only carried out in a deterministic regime.”

      In this paper, we have not taken into account biochemical noise as we focus solely on scenarios where all protein concentrations are high. In these circumstances, the influence of noise is relatively minor. Incorporating biochemical noise, which originates from various sources and possesses diverse characteristics, would significantly complicate the analysis beyond the scope of our current work. However, exploring this aspect could be an intriguing avenue for future research. We have included the following discussions in our paper.

      “Our study focuses on scenarios where random noises are ignored. Realistically, gene circuits are subjected to diverse types of noise, which can complicate their predictable behavior and design. These noises can originate externally from a noisy input signal I, or intrinsically, directly affecting the circuit components. Further, these noises can be classified based on various mechanisms that cause them (Colin et al. (2017); Sartori and Tu (2011)) . And with different mechanisms, each type of noise can be characterized by different attributes such as frequency, amplitude, and noise color. These variances can lead to different impacts on the circuits, potentially necessitating unique mechanisms or designs for the attenuation of each category (Sartori and Tu (2011); Qiao et al. (2019) ). Given the extensive complexity and the need for thorough investigation, these noise-related challenges are beyond the scope of this paper and require a series of future studies.”

      Point-by-point response to the recommendations for the authors:

      Comment 1: - The authors’ github repository, detailed in their code availability statement, is currently unavailable and likely contains some of the answers to the queries here.

      We have updated our GitHub and OSF repositories with simulation codes, result data, and detailed explanations. The link to our GitHub repository in the previous version of the manuscript contained a format error, making it inaccessible to the referees. We apologize for this mistake and have corrected it.

      Comment 2:   - At present, it is not clear how the 425 topologies are created from the system of equations (Eq. 6-8) or from the circuit diagram in Fig 1a. This could do with being explicitly stated for the reader.

      We have added the following paragraph to discuss how the 425 topologies are selected and what the common motifs and connections they share.

      “Previous research identified 425 different three-node TRN network topologies that can achieve adaptation in the absence of growth feedback (Shi et al., 2017), providing the base of our computational study. These topologies can be classified into two families based on the core topology: networks with a negative feedback loop (NFBL) and networks with an incoherent feed-forward loop (IFFL) (Shi et al., 2017). More specifically, there are 206 network topologies in the NFBL family. All of these NFBL topologies have a negative feedback loop for node B. This negative feedback loop can be formed by the loop from node B to A and back to B (such as the circuit shown in Fig. 1 (a)), by node B to C and back to B, or by a longer route, from node B to A and then to C and back to B. There is always a self-activation link from B to B in all these 206 NFBL networks. There are 219 network topologies in the IFFL family. All of them have two feed-forward pathways from the input node A to the output node C. One pathway goes from node A to C directly, while the other involves node B in the middle. One of the pathways is activating while the other one is inhibitory. We use these 425 network topologies from the study (Shi et al., 2017), avoiding redundancy with established results. Due to the unique focus of our research on the effects of growth feedback and the need to evaluate quantitative ratios of robust circuits among all functional ones, we have chosen to use a 20-fold increase in the number of random parameter sets for each network topology compared to the simulations in (Shi et al., 2017). This approach makes it computationally prohibitive to scan all possible 16,038 three-node circuits. We carefully follow the settings in (Shi et al., 2017), which also analyzed TRNs with the AND logic as in this paper. Detailed descriptions of our simulation experiments are provided in the Methods section. To make our results more convincing, we have adopted a set of adaptation criteria that are stricter than those used in (Shi et al., 2017). Consequently, the ratio of adaptive circuits is somewhat lower in our study, with 4 out of the 425 network topologies not demonstrating adaptation.”

      Comment 3: - In the main text, the authors mentioned that they chose 425 network topologies for this study, whereas the number is 435 in the abstract. Please correct the error.

      The number 435 in our previous abstract referred to the 10 four-node circuits that we studied in the appendix, in addition to the 425 three-node network topologies. To avoid confusion and potential misunderstandings among readers, we have revised this expression of “435 distinct topological structures” to “more than four hundred topological structures”.

      Comment 4: - Please can the authors include the topologies they have studied in an appendix or as supplementary material. The impact of this work would increase significantly if for each topology the authors could include a pie chart similar to the one shown in Fig 2 so that others can use these results.

      We fully acknowledge the potential benefits of providing simulation results for each topology. However, including over four hundred more figures in this paper is not feasible. Moreover, we expect that many readers may also be interested in results not only for individual topologies but also for subsets sharing specific motifs or regulatory connections. Therefore, we have provided all the necessary data and codes in our GitHub repository to make these pie charts. We have included a detailed guide on how to generate these pie charts in the GitHub Readme file. These allow readers to plot the pie chart and extract distributions for any individual topology or use conditions to filter any subset of topologies as required. We believe this approach offers greater flexibility for our readers. We have also added the following explanation in the Methods section.

      “The codes implementing these criteria are available in our GitHub repository, with the link provided in the ”Code Availability” section. The failure type results for all circuits tested are available in our OSF repository, with the link provided in the ”Data Availability” section. An additional note is provided in the README file of our GitHub repository for further guidance on generating pie charts similar to Fig. 2 for any network topology or subset of topologies.”

      Comment 5: - At present, the authors have not given sufficient detail for their numerical methods (e.g. to identify bistability or oscillations) to enable the work to be repeated. I would appreciate it if the authors could expand their Methods section or provide a description of their method as an appendix. Additionally, the authors must clarify how many parameter sets per topology showed successful adaptation.

      In response to this comment, we have reorganized and expanded our Methods section, especially the new “Numerical simulations of circuit dynamics” and “Numerical criteria for functional adaptation and failure types” subsections. We added details on how we define and evaluate a “relatively steady state”, how to determine if there is an oscillation, how to determine the critical k<sub>g</sub> value, and how to determine if a failure is continuous or abrupt. Readers can also find the corresponding codes in our GitHub repository, where we provide a README file to help the readers locate the script file they need.

      The number of parameter sets per topology showed successful adaptation is precisely our definition of the Q-value. Q-values of most of the circuits we tested are shown in multiple figures in the paper. A complete table of Q-values with different topologies and different k<sub>growth</sub> values can be found in our OSF repository.

      Comment 6: - Looking at the Model Description, there seem to be multiple issues, as follows. The model should be rewritten and all simulations redone with the model corrected as described below:

      (a) The ”strength of growth feedback” is modeled by the maximal growth parameter k<sub>g</sub> in Equation (12). However, this rate does not represent growth feedback. In fact, this parameter must be present also for the system without growth feedback, Equations (6 - 8), because those cells grow as well! So Equation (12) with b(t)=0 should also be added to Equations (6 - 8), in addition to the dilution terms in each equation.

      (b) The dilution due to growth (dN/dt)*(B/N) is only added to Equations (9 - 11). This is wrong - growthaffects (dilutes) all protein concentrations, even without growth feedback, so similar terms must be added even to equations without growth feedback, i.e., to Equations (6 - 8).

      (c) The term representing growth feedback is actually the fraction 1/(1+b(t)). To adjust the strength ofgrowth feedback, some parameters should be introduced into this term. Specifically, the term currently has a Hill form with Hill coefficient = 1 and sensitivity = 1. The term should be converted into a general Hill function, and the parameters of that function should be altered to represent growth feedback. This Hill function is called a cellular (phenotypic) fitness landscape, see Nevozhay et al., 2012.

      Equations (6-8) only describe one part of the entire model we are studying. We are having these equations presented solely for the purpose of not overwhelming readers with a large number of parameters that are defined for the first time. They are not actually used in our simulations, but were only for explanations of the meaning of parameters. In our simulations throughout the paper, we only used Eqs. (9-13) (with various topologies). We have revised the texts to make this point clear. We have added the following descriptions in the section Model Description:

      “In order not to overwhelm readers with too many terms and parameters, we first describe a partial model (an isolated circuit without growth feedback) before introducing the complete model that we study in this work.”

      “Equations. (9) to (13) are the dynamical equations we actually use for simulating the circuit dynamics.”

      Additionaly, in the newly added subsection “Numerical simulations of circuit dynamics683” in the Methods, we explicitly mention that:

      “The dynamical equations we use are similar to Eqs. (9-13) but with different topologies.”

      We consider dilution due to cell growth as the dominant factor of growth feedback. In fact, we study the adaptive circuits without growth and their ability to maintain their adaptive behaviors after dilution into a fresh medium, based on a recent work [Zhang, et al., Nature Chemical Biology 16.6 (2020): 695-701]. The dynamic roles of the dilution and growth-affected production rate should be analogous, given that they both act as inhibitory factors arising from cell growth. The term mentioned in the comment is about how the burden of the circuit affects cell growth. We agree that it can be interesting to have a more comprehensive study on how different degrees of nonlinearity of this term can have different effects on the overall robustness towards the growth feedback problem, but this is not part of our primary focus and is beyond the scope of this paper. In this paper, we are mostly concerned with the variability of the strength of the growth feedback/dilution, controlled by the parameter k<sub>g</sub>, instead of the different types of nonlinearity.

      Comment 7:  - On the right side of Equation (7), the first term should be inhibitory, right?

      This is indeed an error. We accidentally reversed the regulation from A to B and B to A when inputting the formula. We have corrected both terms.

      Comment 8: - It seems to me that a better transition from Figs 6 and 7 to Fig 8 can be made. Did the authors choose the three circuits in Fig 8 based on the three distinct groups shown in Fig 6 and 7? The rationale for choosing the three topologies given the clusters identified earlier can be explained more clearly.

      We agree more explanation can be provided here. We have added the following descriptions, in the caption of Fig.8:

      “The other three curves represent circuits with different robustness levels: high (Circuit No. 98), moderate (Circuit No. 3), and low (Circuit No. 28) values of R, to demonstrate that this scaling behavior is generic. Each of these three circuit topologies is selected from one of the three groups illustrated in Fig. 6 and Fig. 7, and they have the highest Q(k<sub>g</sub> = 0) value within their respective groups.”

      and in the main text:

      “The three other curves represent circuit topologies that have a relatively high, moderate, and low value R among the 425 topologies tested, to demonstrate that this scaling behavior is generic. (These three topologies are the highest Q(k<sub>g</sub> = 0) topology in each of the three groups shown in Fig. 6 and Fig. 7.”

      Comment 9: - The insights from the neural network model seem to be very limited. It would be interesting to see if the model can predict the performance of network topologies that have not been exposed to the model during training.

      Machine learning is not a focus of this paper. For the section the comment was referring to, the main research question is on the relationship between circuit robustness and topology, and the point we are trying to make is that the robustness dependency varies across different connections — some connections are critical, while others are less impactful. The neural-network-based analysis was only used to provide further support to this point by demonstrating that through optimization, neural networks automatically assign different levels of weights to different connections in the circuits.

      We agree that it can be an interesting topic to study how machine learning can be used to help us design functional and robust circuits, as discussed in the final paragraph of the Discussion section. However, such an investigation would require a series of more comprehensive and carefully designed simulation experiments to validate if “neural networks can predict the performance of network topologies that have not been exposed to the model during training”. One point one should take extra care of is that many network topologies we study are very similar to many others, with shared motifs and links. These considerations extend beyond the scope of this paper.

      Other potential improvements or future work

      Comment 10: - The growth feedback examined in this paper comes from the effect of protein levels on the cell division rate (growth rate). However, the opposite effect can also occur; cell growth rates can affect the distribution of protein expression in cell populations. A good reference is Kheir Gouda et al., which is already on the list of references. These opposite effects should be described and discussed.

      We agree that growth feedback is inherently complex and has many biological effects, and in our paper, we are using a simplified model to study the dominant factor of growth feedback. We have added the following paragraph in the Discussion section, which involves the opposite effect mentioned in the comment.

      “In our paper, we consider dilution due to cell growth as the dominant factor of growth feedback. Here we compared the adaptive circuits under no-growth conditions and their ability to maintain their adaptive behaviors after dilution into a fresh medium, which mediated a significant dilution to the circuits. This is based on our previous work (Zhang et al. (2020)). However, growth feedback is inherently complex (Klumpp et al. (2009)). For instance, an increased growth rate can change protein synthesis rate (Hintsche and Klumpp (2013); Scott and Hwa (2023)), and cell growth rates can affect the distribution of protein expression in cell populations (Gouda et al. (2019)). In our paper, we concentrate on a simplified model with dilution, which we consider to have captured the dominant factor. The dynamic roles of the dilution and growth-affected production rate should be analogous, given that they both act as inhibitory factors arising from cell growth. Incorporating the impact of growth rate on protein synthesis into our model would offer a more comprehensive analysis, a task beyond the scope of this paper but presenting an intriguing opportunity for future research to address the complexities of growth feedback.”

      Comment11: - It may be worth mentioning that growth feedback can lead to persistence, see PMID:27010473.

      We have included this research as a citation.

      Comment 12: - While some other networks (two-node) are discussed, it would be worth doing this analysis for all one- and two-node networks, perhaps controlled by small molecules added externally. If not here, then as a future plan.

      We agree that this is an interesting idea for future studies.

      Comment 13: - The manuscript analyzes the deterministic dynamics of a set of gene networks. However, gene expression is always stochastic, and gene circuits have been designed to control stochastic gene expression. For example, gene expression distributions can be reshaped, or even new peaks can appear, which would be worth mentioning, PMID: 30341217. The effect of growth feedback on stochastic gene expression and future perspectives of systematically studying this should be discussed.

      We have added the following paragraph in the Discussion section to discuss the effects of noises and stochasticity. The research mentioned in the comment is also included.

      “Our study focuses on scenarios where random noises are ignored. Realistically, gene circuits are subjected to diverse types of noise, which can complicate their predictable behavior and design. These noises can originate externally from a noisy input signal I, or intrinsically, directly affecting the circuit components. Further, these noises can be classified based on various mechanisms that cause them (Colin et al. (2017); Sartori and Tu (2011)). And with different mechanisms, each type of noise can be characterized by different attributes such as frequency, amplitude, and noise color. These variances can lead to different impacts on the circuits, potentially necessitating unique mechanisms or designs for the attenuation of each category (Sartori and Tu (2011); Qiao et al. (2019)). Given the extensive complexity and the need for thorough investigation, these noise-related challenges are beyond the scope of this paper and require a series of future studies.”

    1. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In the manuscript 'Mapping kinase domain resistance mechanisms for the MET receptor tyrosine kinase via deep mutational scanning' by Estevam et al, deep mutational scanning is used to assess the impact of ~5,764 mutants in the MET kinase domain on the binding of 11 inhibitors. Analyses were divided by individual inhibitor and kinase inhibitor subtype (I,II, I 1/2, and III). While a number of mutants were consistent with previous clinical reports, novel potential resistance mutants were also described. This study has implications for the development of combination therapies, namely which combination of inhibitors to avoid based on overlapping resistance mutant profiles. While one suggested pair of inhibitors with least overlapping resistance mutation profiles was suggested, this manuscript presents a proof of concept toward a more systematic approach for improved selection of combination therapeutics. Furthermore, in a final part of this manuscript the data was used to train a machine learning model, the ESM-1b protein language model augmented with an XG Boost Regressor framework, and found that they could improve predictions of resistance mutations above the initial ESM-1b model.

      Strengths:

      Overall this paper is a tour-de-force of data collection and analysis to establish a more systematic approach for the design of combination therapies, especially in targeting MET and other kinases, a family of proteins significant to therapeutic intervention for a variety of diseases. The presentation of the work is mostly concise and clear with thousands of data points presented neatly and clearly. The discovery of novel resistance mutants for individual MET inhibitors, kinase inhibitor subtypes within the context of MET, and all resistance mutants across inhibitor subtypes for MET has clinical relevance. However, probably the most promising outcome of this paper is the proposal of the inhibitor combination of Crizotinib and Cabozantib as Type I and Type II inhibitors, respectively, with the least overlapping resistance mutation profiles and therefore potentially the most successful combination therapy for MET. While this specific combination is not necessarily the point, it illustrates a compelling systematic approach for deciding how to proceed in developing combination therapy schedules for kinases. In an insightful final section of this paper, the authors approach using their data to train a machine learning model, perhaps understanding that performing these experiments for every kinase for every inhibitor could be prohibitive to applying this method in practice.

      Weaknesses:

      This paper presents a clear set of experiments with a compelling justification. The content of the paper is overall of high quality. Below are mostly regarding clarifications in presentation.

      Two places could use more computational experiments and analysis, however. Both are presented as suggestions, but at least a discussion of these topics would improve the overall relevance of this work. In the first case it seems that while the analyses conducted on this dataset were chosen with care to be the most relevant to human health, further analyses of these results and their implications of our understanding of allosteric interactions and their effects on inhibitor binding would be a relevant addition. For example, for any given residue type found to be a resistance mutant are there consistent amino acid mutations to which a large or small or effect is found. For example is a mutation from alanine to phenylalanine always deleterious, though one can assume the exact location of a residue matters significantly. Some of this analysis is done in dividing resistance mutants by those that are near the inhibitor binding site and those that aren't, but more of these types of analyses could help the reader understand the large amount of data presented here. A mention at least of the existing literature in this area and the lack or presence of trends would be worthwhile. For example, is there any correlation with a simpler metric like the Grantham score to predict effects of mutations (in a way the ESM-1b model is a better version of this, so this is somewhat implicitly discussed).

      Indeed, this discussion relates to the second point this manuscript could improve upon: the machine learning section. The main actionable item here is that this results section seems the least polished and could do a better job describing what was done. In the figure it looks like results for certain inhibitors were held out as test data - was this all mutants for a single inhibitor, or some other scheme? Overall I think the implications of this section could be fleshed out, potentially with more experiments. As mentioned in the 'Strengths' section, one of the appealing aspects of this paper is indeed its potential wide applicability across kinases -- could you use this ML model to predict resistance mutants for an entirely different kinase? This doesn't seem far-fetched, and would be an extremely compelling addition to this paper to prove the value of this approach.

      Another area in which this paper could improve its clarity is in the description of caveats of the assay. The exact math used to define resistance mutants and its dependence on the DMSO control is interesting, it is worth discussing where the failure modes of this procedure might be. Could it be that the resistance mutants identified in this assay would differ significantly from those found in patients? That results here are consistent with those seen in the clinic is promising, but discrepancies could remain. Furthermore a more in depth discussion of the MetdelEx14 results is warranted. For example, why is the DMSO signature in Figure 1 - supplement 4 so different from that of Figure 1? And finally, there is a lot of emphasis put on the unexpected results of this assay for the tivantinib "type III" inhibitor - could this in fact be because the molecule "is highly selective for the inactive or unphosphorylated form of c-Met" according to Eathiraj et al JBC 2011? These points are addressed in previous work (Estevam et al 2024) or in the detailed methods section, but are not obvious in the main text of the paper.

      This paper is crisply written with beautiful figures, and the complexity of the data is easy to understand from an in depth discussion of the mutants that have been previously reported.

      Finally, the potential impacts and follow-ups of this excellent study could be used as a resource for the community both as a dataset and as a proof of concept. It is exciting that his approach can be altered and/or improved in the future to facilitate the general application of this approach for combination therapies and the understanding of mechanism for other targets.

      Comments on revisions:

      Thank you for your additions and changes - they have improved the quality of this paper.

    2. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this work, the authors present a cornucopia of data generated using deep mutational scanning (DMS) of variants in MET kinase, a protein target implicated in many different forms of cancer. The authors conducted a heroic amount of deep mutational scanning, using computational structural models to augment the interpretation of their DMS findings.

      Strengths:

      This powerful combination of computational models, experimental structures in the literature, dose-response curves, and DMS enables them to identify resistance and sensitizing mutations in the MET kinase domain, as well as consider inhibitors in the context of the clinically relevant exon-14 deletion. They then try to use the existing language model ESM1b augmented by an XGBoost regressor to identify key biophysical drivers of fitness. The authors provide an incredible study that has a treasure trove of data on a clinically relevant target that will appeal to many.

      We thank Reviewer 1 for their generous assessment of our manuscript!

      Weaknesses:

      However, the authors do not equally consider alternative possible mechanisms of resistance or sensitivity beyond the impact of mutation on binding, even though the measure used to discuss resistance and sensitivity is ultimately a resistance score derived from the increase or decrease of the presence of a variant during cell growth.

      For this resistance screen, Ba/F3 was a carefully chosen cellular selection system due to its addiction to exogenously provided IL-3, undetected expression of endogenous RTKs (including MET), and dependence on kinase transgenes to promote signaling and growth under IL-3 withdrawal. Together this allows for the readout of variants that alter kinase-driven proliferation without the caveat of bypass resistance. In our previous phenotypic screen (Estevam et al., 2024, eLife), we also carefully examined the impact of all possible MET kinase domain mutations both in the presence and absence of IL-3 withdrawal, but no inhibitors. There, we identified a small group of mutations that were associated with gain-of-function behavior located at conserved regulatory motifs outside of the catalytic site, yet these mutations were largely sensitive to inhibitors within this screen.

      Here, the majority of resistance mutations were located at or near the ATP-binding pocket, suggesting an impact on resistance through direct drug interactions. However, there was also a small population of distal mutations that met our statistical definitions of resistance. Within the crizotinib selection, sites such as T1293, L1272, T1261, amongst others, demonstrated resistance profiles but were located in C-lobe away from the catalytic site. While we did not experimentally validate these specific mutations, it is possible that non-direct drug binders instead promote resistance through allosteric or conformational mechanisms which preserve kinase activity and signaling. Indeed, our ML framework explicitly included conformational and stability effects as significant in improving predictions.

      We would be happy to further discuss any specific alternative resistance mechanisms Reviewer 1 has in mind! Thank you for highlighting this!

      There are also points of discussion and interpretation that rely heavily on docked models of kinase-inhibitor pairs without considering alternative binding modes or providing any validation of the docked pose. Lastly, the use of ESM1b is powerful but constrained heavily by the limited structural training data provided, which can lead to misleading interpretations without considering alternative conformations or poses.

      The majority of our interpretations are grounded in the X-ray structures of WT MET bound to the inhibitors studied (or close analogs). The use of docked models (note - to mutant structures predicted by UMol, not ESM, that can have conformational changes) is primarily in the ML part of the manuscript. Indeed, in our models, conformational and binding mode changes are taken into account as features (see Ligand RMSD, Residue RMSD). There are certainly improved methods (AF3 variants) emerging that might have even more power to model these changes, but they come with greater computational costs and are something we will be evaluating in the future.

      We added to the results section: “While our features can account for some changes in MET-mutant conformation and altered inhibitor binding pose, the prediction of these aspects can likely be improved with new methods.”

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This manuscript provides a comprehensive overview of potential resistance mutations within MET Receptor Tyrosine Kinase and defines how specific mutations affect different inhibitors and modes of target engagement. The goal is to identify inhibitor combinations with the lowest overlap in their sensitivity to resistant mutations and determine if certain resistance mutations/mechanisms are more prevalent for specific modes of ATP-binding site engagement. To achieve this, the authors measured the ability of ~6000 single mutants of MET's kinase domain (in the context of a cytosolic TPR fusion) to drive IL-3-independent proliferation (used as a proxy for activity) of Ba/F3 cells (deep mutational profiling) in the presence of 11 different inhibitors. The authors then used co-crystal and docked structures of inhibitor-bound MET complexes to define the mechanistic basis of resistance and applied a protein language model to develop a predictive model of inhibitor sensitivity/resistance.

      Strengths:

      The major strengths of this manuscript are the comprehensive nature of the study and the rigorous methods used to measure the sensitivity of ~6000 MET mutants in a pooled format. The dataset generated will be a valuable resource for researchers interested in understanding kinase inhibitor sensitivity and, more broadly, small molecule ligand/protein interactions. The structural analyses are systematic and comprehensive, providing interesting insights into resistance mechanisms. Furthermore, the use of machine learning to define inhibitor-specific fitness landscapes is a valuable addition to the narrative. Although the ESM1b protein language model is only moderately successful in identifying the underlying mechanistic basis of resistance, the authors' attempt to integrate systematic sequence/function datasets with machine learning serves as a foundation for future efforts.

      We thank Reviewer 2 for their thoughtful assessment of our manuscript!

      Weaknesses:

      The main limitation of this study is that the authors' efforts to define general mechanisms between inhibitor classes were only moderately successful due to the challenge of uncoupling inhibitor-specific interaction effects from more general mechanisms related to the mode of ATP-binding site engagement. However, this is a minor limitation that only minimally detracts from the impressive overall scope of the study.

      We agree. We have added to the discussion: “A full landscape of mutational effects can help to predict drug response and guide small molecule design to counteract acquired resistance. The ability to define molecular mechanisms towards that goal will likely require more purposefully chosen chemical inhibitors and combinatorial mutational libraries to be maximally informative.”

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In the manuscript 'Mapping kinase domain resistance mechanisms for the MET receptor tyrosine kinase via deep mutational scanning' by Estevam et al, deep mutational scanning is used to assess the impact of ~5,764 mutants in the MET kinase domain on the binding of 11 inhibitors. Analyses were divided by individual inhibitor and kinase inhibitor subtypes (I, II, I 1/2, and III). While a number of mutants were consistent with previous clinical reports, novel potential resistance mutants were also described. This study has implications for the development of combination therapies, namely which combination of inhibitors to avoid based on overlapping resistance mutant profiles. While one suggested pair of inhibitors with the least overlapping resistance mutation profiles was suggested, this manuscript presents a proof of concept toward a more systematic approach for improved selection of combination therapeutics. Furthermore, in a final part of this manuscript the data was used to train a machine learning model, the ESM-1b protein language model augmented with an XG Boost Regressor framework, and found that they could improve predictions of resistance mutations above the initial ESM-1b model.

      Strengths:

      Overall this paper is a tour-de-force of data collection and analysis to establish a more systematic approach for the design of combination therapies, especially in targeting MET and other kinases, a family of proteins significant to therapeutic intervention for a variety of diseases. The presentation of the work is mostly concise and clear with thousands of data points presented neatly and clearly. The discovery of novel resistance mutants for individual MET inhibitors, kinase inhibitor subtypes within the context of MET, and all resistance mutants across inhibitor subtypes for MET has clinical relevance. However, probably the most promising outcome of this paper is the proposal of the inhibitor combination of Crizotinib and Cabozantib as Type I and Type II inhibitors, respectively, with the least overlapping resistance mutation profiles and therefore potentially the most successful combination therapy for MET. While this specific combination is not necessarily the point, it illustrates a compelling systematic approach for deciding how to proceed in developing combination therapy schedules for kinases. In an insightful final section of this paper, the authors approach using their data to train a machine learning model, perhaps understanding that performing these experiments for every kinase for every inhibitor could be prohibitive to applying this method in practice.

      We thank Reviewer 3 for their assessment of our manuscript (we are very happy to have it described as a tour-de-force!)

      Weaknesses:

      This paper presents a clear set of experiments with a compelling justification. The content of the paper is overall of high quality. Below are mostly regarding clarifications in presentation.

      Two places could use more computational experiments and analysis, however. Both are presented as suggestions, but at least a discussion of these topics would improve the overall relevance of this work. In the first case it seems that while the analyses conducted on this dataset were chosen with care to be the most relevant to human health, further analyses of these results and their implications of our understanding of allosteric interactions and their effects on inhibitor binding would be a relevant addition. For example, for any given residue type found to be a resistance mutant are there consistent amino acid mutations to which a large or small or effect is found. For example is a mutation from alanine to phenylalanine always deleterious, though one can assume the exact location of a residue matters significantly. Some of this analysis is done in dividing resistance mutants by those that are near the inhibitor binding site and those that aren't, but more of these types of analyses could help the reader understand the large amount of data presented here. A mention at least of the existing literature in this area and the lack or presence of trends would be worthwhile. For example, is there any correlation with a simpler metric like the Grantham score to predict effects of mutations (in a way the ESM-1b model is a better version of this, so this is somewhat implicitly discussed).

      Indeed we experimented with including these types of features in the XGBoost scheme (particularly residue volume change and distance) to augment the predictive power of the ESM model - see Figure 8 - figure supplement 1; however, we didn’t find them as significant. Therefore, the signal is likely very small and/or incorporated into the baseline ESM model.

      Indeed, this discussion relates to the second point this manuscript could improve upon: the machine learning section. The main actionable item here is that this results section seems the least polished and could do a better job describing what was done. In the figure it looks like results for certain inhibitors were held out as test data - was this all mutants for a single inhibitor, or some other scheme? Overall I think the implications of this section could be fleshed out, potentially with more experiments.

      Figure 8A and the methods section contain a very detailed explanation of test data. We have thought about it and do not have any easy path to improve the description, which we reproduce here:

      “Experimental fitness scores of MET variants in the presence of DMSO and AMG458 were ignored in model training and testing since having just one set of data for a type I ½ inhibitor and DMSO leads to learning by simply memorizing the inhibitor type, without generalizability. The remaining dataset was split into training and test sets to further avoid overfitting (Figure 8A). The following data points were held out for testing - (a) all mutations in the presence of one type I (crizotinib) and one type II (glesatinib analog) inhibitor, (b) 20% of randomly chosen positions (columns) and (c) all mutations in two randomly selected amino acids (rows) (e.g. all mutations to Phe, Ser). After splitting the dataset into train and test sets, the train set was used for XGBoost hyperparameter tuning and cross-validation. For tuning the hyperparameters of each of the XGBoost models, we held out 20% of randomly sampled data points in the training set and used the remaining 80% data for Bayesian hyperparameter optimization of the models with Optuna (Akiba et al., 2019), with an objective to minimize the mean squared error between the fitness predictions on 20% held out split and the corresponding experimental fitness scores. The following hyperparameters were sampled and tuned: type of booster (booster - gbtree or dart), maximum tree depth (max_depth), number of trees (n_estimators), learning rate (eta), minimum leaf split loss (gamma), subsample ratio of columns when constructing each tree (colsample_bytree), L1 and L2 regularization terms (alpha and beta) and tree growth policy (grow_policy - depthwise or lossguide). After identifying the best combination of hyperparameters for each of the models, we performed 10-fold cross validation (with re-sampling) of the models on the full training set. The training set consists of data points corresponding to 230 positions and 18 amino acids. We split these into 10 parts such that each part corresponds to data from 23 positions and 2 amino acids. Then, at each of 10 iterations of cross-validation, models were trained on 9 of 10 parts (207 positions and 16 amino acids) and evaluated on the 1 held out part (23 positions and 2 amino acids). Through this protocol we ensure that we evaluate performance of the models with different subsets of positions and amino acids. The average Pearson correlation and mean squared error of the models from these 10 iterations were calculated and the best performing model out of 8192 models was chosen as the one with the highest cross-validation correlation. The final XGBoost models were obtained by training on the full training set and also used to obtain the fitness score predictions for the validation and test sets. These predictions were used to calculate the inhibitor-wise correlations shown in Figure 8B.“

      As mentioned in the 'Strengths' section, one of the appealing aspects of this paper is indeed its potential wide applicability across kinases -- could you use this ML model to predict resistance mutants for an entirely different kinase? This doesn't seem far-fetched, and would be an extremely compelling addition to this paper to prove the value of this approach.

      This is exactly where we want to go next! But as we see here, it is going to be hard and require more purposeful selection of chemicals and likely combinatorial mutations to be maximally informative (see also reviewer 2 response where we have added text)

      Another area in which this paper could improve its clarity is in the description of caveats of the assay. The exact math used to define resistance mutants and its dependence on the DMSO control is interesting, it is worth discussing where the failure modes of this procedure might be. Could it be that the resistance mutants identified in this assay would differ significantly from those found in patients? That results here are consistent with those seen in the clinic is promising, but discrepancies could remain.

      Thank you for pointing this out. The greatest trade-off of probing the intracellular MET kinase (juxtamembrane, kinase domain, c-tail) in the constitutively active TPR system is that while we gain cytoplasmic expression, constitutive oligomerization, and HGF-independent activation, other features like membrane-proximal effects are lost and translatability of some mutations in non-proliferative conditions may also be limited. Nevertheless, Ba/F3 allows IL-3 withdrawal to serve as an effective variant readout of transgenic kinase variant effects due to its undetectable expression of endogenous RTKs and addiction to exogenous interleukin-3 (IL-3).

      In our previous study, we were also interested in comparing the phenotypic results to available patient populations in cBioPortal. We observed that our DMS captured known oncogenic MET kinase variants, in addition to a population of gain-of-function variants within clinical residue positions that have not been clinically reported. Interestingly, the population of possible novel gain-of-function mutant codons were more distant in genetic space (2-3 Hamming distance) from wild type than the clinically reported variant codon (1-2 Hamming distance).

      For this inhibitor screen, we also carefully compared previously reported and validated resistance mutations across referenced publications to that of our inhibitor screen, and observed large agreement as noted in-text. While discrepancies could definitely remain, there is precedence for consistency.

      Furthermore a more in depth discussion of the MetdelEx14 results is warranted. For example, why is the DMSO signature in Figure 1 - supplement 4 so different from that of Figure 1?

      In our previous study (Estevam et al., 2024), we more directly compared MET and METΔExon14, and while observed several differences, especially at conserved regulatory motifs, the TPR expression system did not provide a robust differential. Therefore, we hypothesize that a membrane-bound context is likely necessary to obtain a differential that captures juxtamembrane regulatory effects for these two isoforms. For that reason, we did not place heavy emphasis on the differences between MET and METΔExon14 in this study. Nevertheless, we performed parallel analysis of the METΔExon14 inhibitor DMS and provided all source and analyzed data in our GitHub repository (https://github.com/fraser-lab/MET_kinase_Inhibitor_DMS).

      In our analysis of resistance, we used Rosace to score and compare DMSO and inhibitor landscapes. We present the full distribution of raw scores in Figure 1 for each condition. However, to visually highlight resistance mutations as a heatmap, we subtracted the scores of each variant in each inhibitor condition from the raw DMSO score, making the heatmaps in Figure 1 - supplement 4 appear more “blue.”

      And finally, there is a lot of emphasis put on the unexpected results of this assay for the tivantinib "type III" inhibitor - could this in fact be because the molecule "is highly selective for the inactive or unphosphorylated form of c-Met" according to Eathiraj et al JBC 2011?

      The work presented by Eathiraj et al JBC 2011 is a key study we reference and is foundational to tivantinib. While the point brought up about tivantinib’s selective preference for an inactive conformation is valid, this is also true for type II kinase inhibitors. In our study, regardless of inhibitor conformational preference, tivantinib was the only one with a nearly identical landscape to DMSO and exhibited selection even in the absence of Ba/F3 MET-addiction (Figure 1E). This result is in closer agreement with MET agnostic behavior reported by Basilico et al., 2013 and Katayama et al., 2013.

      While this paper is crisply written with beautiful figures, the complexity of the data warrants a bit more clarity in how the results are visualized. Namely, clearly highlighting mutants that have previously reported and those identified by this study across all figures could help significantly in understanding the more novel findings of the work.

      To better compare and contrast novel mutation identified in this study to others, we compiled a list of reported resistance mutations from recent clinical and experimental studies (Pecci et al 2024; Yao et al., 2023; Bahcall et al., 2022; Recondo et al., 2020; Rotow et al ., 2020; Fujino et al., 2019), since a direct database with resistance annotations does not exist for MET, to the best of our knowledge. In total, this amounted to 31 annotated resistance mutations across crizotinib, capmatinib, tepotinib, savolitinib, cabozantinib, merestinib, and glesatinib, which we have now tabulated in a new figure (Figure 4) and commentary in the main text:

      To assess the agreement between our DMS and previously annotated resistance mutations, we compiled a list of reported resistance mutations from recent clinical and experimental studies (Pecci et al 2024; Yao et al., 2023; Bahcall et al., 2022; Recondo et al., 2020; Rotow et al ., 2020; Fujino et al., 2019) (Figure 4A,B). Overall, previously discovered mutations are strongly shifted to a GOF distribution for the drugs where resistance is reported from treatment or experiment; in contrast, the distribution is centered around neutral for those sites for other drugs not reported in the literature (Figure 4C). However, even in cases such as L1195V, we observe GOF DMS scores indicative of resistance to previously reported inhibitors. Given this overall strong concordance with prior literature and clinical results, we can also provide hypotheses to clarify the role of mutations that are observed in combination with others. For example, H1094Y is a reported driver mutation that has been linked to resistance in METΔEx14 for glesatinib with either the secondary L1195V mutation or in isolation (Recodo et al., 2020). However, in our assay H1094Y demonstrated slight sensitivity to gelesatinib, suggesting that either resistance is linked to the exon14 deletion isoform, the L1195V mutation, or a cellular factor not modeled well by the BaF3 system.

      Finally, the potential impacts and follow-ups of this excellent study could be communicated better - it is recommended that they advertise better this paper as a resource for the community both as a dataset and as a proof of concept. In this realm I would encourage the authors to emphasize the multiple potential uses of this dataset by others to provide answers and insights on a variety of problems.

      Please see below

      Related to this, the decision to include the MetdelEx14 results, but not discuss them at all is interesting, do the authors expect future analyses to lead to useful insights? Is it surprising that trends are broadly the same to the data discussed?

      Our previous paper suggests that Ba/F3 isn’t a great model for measuring the differences between MET and METΔEx14, so we haven’t emphasized other than to point to our previous paper. We include the full analysis here nonetheless as a resource. Potentially where the greatest differences between resistance mutant behaviors would be observed is in the full-length, membrane-bound MET and METΔEx14 receptor isoforms. While outside of the scope of this study, there is great potential to use the resistance mutations identified in this study as a filtered group to test and map differential inhibitor sensitivities between receptor isoforms.

      And finally it could be valuable to have a small addition of introspection from the authors on how this approach could be altered and/or improved in the future to facilitate the general application of this approach for combination therapies for other targets.

      See also reviewer 2 response where we have added text.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Major points of revision:

      (1) It seems like much of the structural interpretation of the inhibitor binding mode, outside of crizotinib binding, appears to come from docked models of the inhibitor to the MET kinase domain. Given the potential variability of the docked structure to the kinase domain, it would be useful for the authors to consider alternative possible binding modes that their docking pipeline may have suggested. It could also be useful to provide some degree of validation or contextualization of their docking models.

      All individual figures are very carefully inspected based on either existing crystal structures of the inhibitor or closely related inhibitors (ATP, 3DKC; crizotinib, 2WGJ; tepotinib, 4R1V; tivantinib, 3RHK; AMG-458, 5T3Q; NVP-BVU972, 3QTI; merestinib, 4EEV; savolitinib, 6SDE). In total, four structural interpretations were the result of docking onto reference experimental structures (capmatinib, cabozantinib, glumetinib, glesatinib). As we wrote above, different conformations and binding modes are possible in predicted mutant structures (as we did here at scale) and included in the ML analysis already.

      (2) In the first section, the authors classify an inhibitor as Type Ia on docking models, but mention the conflicting literature describing it as type Ib - it would be helpful to provide a contextualization of why this distinction between Ia and Ib matters, and what difference it might make. It would also be useful to know if their docking score only suggested poses compatible with Ia or if other poses were provided as well. Validation using other method might be beneficial, especially since they acknowledge the conflicting literature for classification. Or at least recontextualization that more evidence would be needed.

      Kinase inhibitors have several canonical structural definitions we use to base the classifications in this study. Specifically, type I inhibitors are classified in MET by interactions with Y1230, D1228, K1110 in addition to its conformation in the ATP-binding site. Type I inhibitors are further subdivided into type 1a in MET if it leverages interactions with the solvent front and residue G1163. In prior literature referenced, tepotinib was classified as type 1b, which would imply it does not have solvent front interactions, like savolitinib (PDB 6SDE) or NVP-BVU972 (PDB 3QTI). However, in the tepotinib experimental structure (PDB 4R1V), we observed a greater structural resemblance to other type 1a inhibitors opposed to type 1b (Figure 1 - figure supplement 1b).

      (3) The measure used to discuss resistance and sensitivity is ultimately a resistance score derived from the increase or decrease of the presence of a variant during cell growth. This is not a measure of direct binding. It would be helpful if the authors discussed alternative mechanisms through which these variants may impact resistance and/or sensitivity, such as stability, protonation effects, or kinase activity. The score itself may be convolving over all these potential mechanisms to drive GOF and LOF observed behavior.

      See the response to the public review. Indeed, our ML framework explicitly included conformational and stability effects as significant in improving predictions.

      (4) While it is promising to try and improve the predictive properties of ESM1b, it is not exactly clear why the authors considered their structural data of 11 inhibitors a sufficient dataset with which to augment the model. It would be useful for the authors to provide some additional context for why they wished to augment ESM1b in particular with their dataset, and provide any metrics indicating that their training data of 11 inhibitors provided an adequate statistical sample.

      We don’t understand what this means. Sorry!

      (5) The authors use ESM-1b to predict the fitness impact of each mutation and augment it using protein structural data of drug-target interactions. However, using an XGBoost regressor on a single set of 11 kinase-inhibitor interaction pairs is an incredibly sparse dataset to train upon. It would be useful for the authors to consider the limitations of their model, as well as its extensibility in the context of alternate binding poses, alternate conformations, or changes in protonation states of ligand or inhibitor.

      On the contrary - this is 11 chemicals across 3000 mutations. We have discussed alternative interpretations above.

      Minor points:

      (1) It would also be useful for the authors to provide more context around their choice of regressor. XGBoost is a powerful regressor but can easily overfit high dimensional data when paired with language models such as ESM-1b. This would be particularly useful since some of the features to train on were also generated using existing models such as ThermoMPNN.

      Yes - we are quite concerned about overfitting and have tried to assess overfitting by careful design of test and validation sets.

      (2) The authors also mention excluding their DMSO and AMG458 scores in the model training and testing due to overfitting issues - it would be useful to have an SI figure pointing to this data.

      No - we exclude the DMSO because that is the reference (baseline) and AMG because it has a different binding mode. This isn’t related to overfitting.

      (3) The authors mention in their docking pipeline that 5 binding modes were used for each ligand docking, but it appears that only one binding mode is considered in the main figures. It would be useful for the authors to provide additional details about what were the other binding modes used for, how different were each binding mode, and how was the "primary" mode selected (and how much better was its score than the others).

      The reviewer misinterprets the difference between poses shown in figures, based on mostly crystal structures or carefully selected templates, and the use of docked models in feature engineering for the ML part of the study. Where existing crystal structures do not exist, we performed docking for capmatinib, cabozantinib, glumetinib, glesatinib onto reference structures bound to type I (2WGJ) and type II (4EEV) inhibitors. We selected one representative binding mode based on the reference inhibitor, and while not exact, at a minimum these models provide a basis for structural interpretation.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      My main suggestion is for the authors to add a few sentences (in non-technical language) to the results section, specifically before the results shown in Figure 3, defining gain-of-function, loss-of-function, resistance, and sensitivity. While these definitions are present in the materials and methods section, explicitly discussing them prior to the relevant results would significantly improve the overall readability of the manuscript.

      We defined “gain-of-function” and “loss-of-function” mutations as those with fitness scores statistically greater or lower than wild-type. Within the DMSO condition, gain-of-function and loss-of -function labels describe mutational perturbation to protein function, whereas within inhibitor conditions, the labels describe the difference in fitness introduced by an inhibitor.

      We have also clarified these definitions where the terms are first introduced: “As expected, the DMSO control population displayed a bimodal distribution with mutations exhibiting wild-type fitness centered around 0, with a wider distribution of mutations that exhibited loss- or gain-of-function effects, as defined by fitness scores with statistically significant lower or greater scores than wild-type, respectively.”

      Figure 7D. Please add a bit more detail to the legend on how fold change (y-axis) was calculated.

      Here, fold change represents the number of viable cells at each inhibitor concentration relative to the TKI control, measured with the CellTiter-Glo® Luminescent Cell Viability Assay (Promega) as an end point readout. We have updated the legend of Figure 7D with calculation details: “Dose-response for each inhibitor concentration is represented as the fraction of viable cells relative to the TKI free control.”

      I must admit, I did not understand what "Specific inhibitor fitness landscapes also aid in identifying mutations with potential drug sensitivity, such as R1086 and C1091 in the MET P-loop" means. These are positions where most mutations lead to greater sensitivity to crizotinib. Is the idea that there are potentially clinically-relevant MET mutations that can be targeted over wild type with crizotinib?

      Thank you for highlighting this! The P-loop (phosphate-binding loop) is a glycine-rich structural motif conserved in kinase domains. This motif is located in the N-lobe, where its primary role is to gate ATP entry into the active site and stabilize the phosphate groups of ATP when bound. Therefore, the P-loop is a common target region for ATP-competitive inhibitor design, but also a site where resistance can emerge (Roumiantsev et al., 2002). The idea we’d like to convey is that identifying residues that offer the potential for drug stabilization with the added benefit of having lower risk resistance, is an attractive consideration for novel inhibitor design.

      We have added to the text: “Individual inhibitor resistance landscapes also aid in identifying target residues for novel drug design by providing insights into mutability and known resistance cases. This enables the selection of vectors for chemical elaboration with potential lower risk of resistance development. Sites with mutational profiles such as R1086 and C1091, located in the common drug target P-loop of MET, could be likely candidates for crizotinib.”

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Suggested Improvements to the Figures:

      a)  Figure 4A - T1261 seems to be mislabeled

      b)  In Figure 3A it's suggested to highlight mutants determined to be resistance mutants by this scheme.

      c)  In Figure 3D it would be informative to highlight which of these resistance mutants have already been previously reported and which are novel to this study

      d)  Throughout figures 3A, 3D, and 4G the graphical choices on how to highlight synonymous mutations and mutations not performed in the assay needs improvement.

      The Green vs Grey 'TRUE' vs 'FALSE' boxes are confusing. Just a green box indicating synonymous mutations would be sufficient. Additionally these green boxes are hard to see, and often edges of this green box are currently missing making it even more difficult to see and interpret.

      * In Figure 4A mutants do not seem to be indicated by a line or plus sign, but this is not explained in the legend or the caption. Please add.

      * In 3D and 4G it is not clear if the mutants not performed are indicated at all - perhaps they are indicated in white, making them indistinguishable from scores with 0. Please clarify.

      T1261 and G1242 are now correctly labeled.

      In text we have also highlighted reported resistance mutations for crizotinib, which are inclusive of clinical reports and in vitro characterization: “These sites, and many of the individual mutations, have been noted in prior reports, such as: D1228N/H/V/Y, Y1230C/H/N/S, G1163R.”

      We have adjusted the heatmaps to improve visual clarity. Mutations with score 0 are white, as indicated by the scale bar, and mutations uncaptured by the screen are now in light yellow. The green outline distinguishing WT synonymous mutations have also been adjusted so edges are no longer cut off. In our representations, we only distinguished mutations by the score color scale bar and WT outline. What looked like a “plus” or “line” in the original figure was only the heatmap background, which now should be resolved in the updated figure and legends for Figure 3 and Figure 4.

      (2) Some Minor Suggested Improvements to the Text:

      a)  The abbreviation CBL for 'CBL docking site' is used without being defined.

      b)  Figure 3G is referenced, but it does not exist.

      c)  In the sentence 'Beyond these well characterized sites, regions with sensitivity occurred throughout the kinase, primarily in loop-regions which have the greatest mutational tolerance in DMSO, but do not provide a growth advantage in the presence of an inhibitor (Figure 1 - Figure Supplement 1; Figure 1 - Figure Supplement 2).'. It is not clear why these supplemental figures are being referenced.

      d)  In the supplement section 'Enrich2 Scoring' has what seem like placeholders for citations in [brackets]

      Cbl is a E3 ubiquitin ligase that plays a role in MET regulation through engagement with exon 14, specifically at Y1003 when phosphorylated. This mode of regulation was more highlighted in our previous study. However, since Cbl was only mentioned briefly in this study, we have removed reference to it to simplify the text.

      In addition, we have removed the figure 3G reference and corrected the in-text range. We have also removed references to figure supplements where unnecessary and edited the “Enrich2 scoring” method section to now reference missing citations.

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this study from Zhu and colleagues, a clear role for MED26 in mouse and human erythropoiesis is demonstrated that is also mapped to amino acids 88-480 of the human protein. The authors also show the unique expression of MED26 in later-stage erythropoiesis and propose transcriptional pausing and condensate formation mechanisms for MED26's role in promoting erythropoiesis. Despite the author's introductory claim that many questions regarding Pol II pausing in mammalian development remain unanswered, the importance of transcriptional pausing in erythropoiesis has actually already been demonstrated (Martell-Smart, et al. 2023, PMID: 37586368, which the authors notably did not cite in this manuscript). Here, the novelty and strength of this study is MED26 and its unique expression kinetics during erythroid development.

      Strengths:

      The widespread characterization of kinetics of mediator complex component expression throughout the erythropoietic timeline is excellent and shows the interesting divergence of MED26 expression pattern from many other mediator complex components. The genetic evidence in conditional knockout mice for erythropoiesis requiring MED26 is outstanding. These are completely new models from the investigators and are an impressive amount of work to have both EpoR-driven deletion and inducible deletion. The effect on red cell number is strong in both. The genetic over-expression experiments are also quite impressive, especially the investigators' structure-function mapping in primary cells. Overall the data is quite convincing regarding the genetic requirement for MED26. The authors should be commended for demonstrating this in multiple rigorous ways.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The authors state that MED26 was nominated for study based on RNA-seq analysis of a prior published dataset. They do not however display any of that RNA-seq analysis with regards to Mediator complex subunits. While they do a good job showing protein-level analysis during erythropoiesis for several subunits, the RNA-seq analysis would allow them to show the developmental expression dynamics of all subunit members.

      (2) The authors use an EpoR Cre for red cell-specific MED26 deletion. However, other studies have now shown that the EpoR Cre can also lead to recombination in the macrophage lineage, which clouds some of the in vivo conclusions for erythroid specificity. That being said, the in vitro erythropoiesis experiments here are convincing that there is a major erythroid-intrinsic effect.

      (3) The donor chimerism assessment of mice transplanted with MED26 knockout cells is a bit troubling. First, there are no staining controls shown and the full gating strategy is not shown. Furthermore, the authors use the CD45.1/CD45.2 system to differentiate between donor and recipient cells in erythroblasts. However, CD45 is not expressed from the CD235a+ stage of erythropoiesis onwards, so it is unclear how the authors are detecting essentially zero CD45-negative cells in the erythroblast compartment. This is quite odd and raises questions about the results. That being said, the red cell indices in the mice are the much more convincing data.

      (4) The authors make heavy use of defining "erythroid gene" sets and "non-erythroid gene" sets, but it is unclear what those lists of genes actually are. This makes it hard to assess any claims made about erythroid and non-erythroid genes.

      (5) Overall the data regarding condensate formation is difficult to interpret and is the weakest part of this paper. It is also unclear how studies of in vitro condensate formation or studies in 293T or K562 cells can truly relate to highly specialized erythroid biology. This does not detract from the major findings regarding genetic requirements of MED26 in erythropoiesis.

      (6) For many figures, there are some panels where conclusions are drawn, but no statistical quantification of whether a difference is significant or not.

    1. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      This study presents valuable insight on how neurons within the central amygdala may broadly encode the valence of emotional stimuli. The evidence supporting most of the authors' conclusion is solid, although some of the claims should be treated with caution due to potential alternative interpretation of the data.

      In this revised manuscript the authors have addressed the reviewers' critiques in a way that acknowledges the feedback but does not fully embrace or rigorously address the reviewers' core concerns. Here are the main observations that support this impression:

      (1) The authors repeatedly acknowledge the ambiguity in defining "valence" and "salience" in the literature, but their responses don't clarify how they address these terms more rigorously. They seem to justify their operational definitions by citing previous studies but do not address how their definitions impact the clarity and robustness of their findings.

      (2) The reviewers highlighted that using stimuli from different sensory modalities without scaling them or including neutral cues limits the ability to distinguish between valence and salience. The authors acknowledge this but argue that using same-modality stimuli would not produce distinct responses. This response doesn't address the reviewers' point about how these design limitations could weaken the conclusions. They seem to rely on citations of similar experimental designs instead of addressing the core critique or proposing additional experiments.

      (3) In response to the low number of cue-responsive units and the call for more rigorous behavioral measures (like licking or orienting), the authors provide some data but emphasize statistical rigor over behavioral insights, which was questioned during the initial review. They don't propose any methodological adjustments or consider alternative explanations.

      (4) The reviewers suggested clustering or other population-level analyses to understand functional diversity within the central amygdala. The authors argue that their statistical approach was sufficient and don't believe additional clustering analyses would add value. This response seems dismissive, as they don't consider whether population-level insights might reveal patterns that single-cell responses overlook.

      Overall, while the authors have responded to each concern, their rebuttals often reference other studies to justify their choices rather than addressing the specific limitations highlighted by the reviewers.

    2. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors have performed endoscopic calcium recordings of individual CeA neuron responses to food and shock, as well as to cues predicting food and shock. They claim that a majority of neurons encode valence, with a substantial minority encoding salience.

      Strengths:

      The use of endoscopic imaging is valuable, as it provides the ability to resolve signals from single cells, while also being able to track these cells across time (though the latter capability was not extensively utilized). Another strength is the use of a sophisticated circular shifting analysis to avoid statistical errors caused by correlations between neighboring image pixels.

      Weaknesses:

      In the first version of this manuscript, my main critique was that the authors didn't fully test whether neurons encode valence. In their rebuttal, the authors justify their use of the terms valence and salience by citing prior works from different labs:

      (1) Li et al., 2019, doi: 10.7554/eLife.41223<br /> (2) Yang et al., 2023, doi: 10.1038/s41586-023-05910-2<br /> (3) Huang et al., 2024, doi: 10.1038/s41586-024-07819<br /> (4) Lin and Nicolelis, 2008, doi: 10.1016/j.neuron.2008.04.031<br /> (5) Stephenson-Jones et al., 2020, doi: 10.1016/j.neuron.2019.12.006<br /> (6) Zhu et al., 2018, doi: 10.1126/science.aat0481<br /> (7) Comoli et al., 2003, doi: 10.1038/nn1113P

      Among these, items #1 and #3 primarily discuss valence, while #2, #4, #6, and #7 discuss salience, and #5 discusses both.

      Upon reviewing these references, the authors' identification of valence encoding patterns is still problematic, and indeed studies cited above show several lines of evidence for valence encoding that are absent here. For example, item #3 ranked behavioral responses to five different odors in drosophila, from most attractive to most repulsive, and saw neuronal responses correlated with the degree of attraction versus repulsion across all five odors. This is robust evidence for valence encoding that is absent here. Items #1 and #5 above are the other two valence-addressing studies cited, and although those only used one rewarding and one aversive stimulus (in rodents), both also added a neutral cue, and most critically, identified substantial subsets of neurons showing a rank-order response, e.g. either aversion > neutral > reward or aversion < neutral < reward. Again, that level of demonstration of valence encoding is not shown in the current study.

      Finally, two of the valence studies above tested responses to omission of reward/punishment, providing yet more evidence of valence encoding that is absent in the current study.

      While there is much to like about the current study, the claims of valence encoding appear hard to justify, and should be toned down.

    1. Article 14

      he passage you've provided explores how the Rome I Regulation and Rome II Regulation distinguish between contractual and non-contractual obligations, guiding the choice of applicable law in cross-border contractual disputes.

      Key points:

      1. Characterisation: Characterisation refers to determining whether a legal issue falls under contractual or non-contractual obligations. The subject matter and wording of the Rome I Regulation itself can guide this process. Provisions like Article 12 (scope of applicable law) and Article 14 (voluntary assignment) provide specific guidance on issues that fall under contractual obligations. For example:

      Insurance assignment: The issue of whether an insurer should pay the insurance proceeds to the assignee or the assignor (bank or vessel owner) falls under contractual obligations because it concerns the assignment of rights under a contract. Novation: The issue of whether a contract has been novated (replaced with a new contract) also falls under contractual obligations because it is about the freedom of parties to enter new agreements. 2. Contractual Obligations: The core principle of contractual obligations is party autonomy – the parties' ability to voluntarily agree to legal terms. The Regulation applies where an obligation is voluntarily assumed by agreement, such as in cases of novation, assignments, and third-party enforcement of rights under contracts.

      1. Non-Contractual Obligations: Tortious, equitable, or property obligations are non-contractual because they arise independently of a contractual agreement. These obligations do not result from parties' voluntary agreements but from external legal duties, such as the duty of care in tort or unjust enrichment.

      2. Restitutionary Claims: The classification of restitutionary claims (e.g., claims for unjust enrichment) can be tricky. Under the Rome I Regulation, the consequences of nullity (when a contract is void) are classified as contractual. However, other restitutionary remedies, like unjust enrichment or acts performed without due authority (negotiorum gestio), are classified under Rome II Regulation as non-contractual obligations.

      3. Concurrent Liability in Contract and Tort: Previously, under English law, a claimant could frame an action in either contract or tort, which gave them flexibility in choosing the law that applied. The introduction of Rome II Regulation now requires clearer classification of obligations as either contractual or non-contractual. The claimant can no longer choose both. This rethinking brings the classification process in line with the jurisdictional rules of the Brussels I Regulation (now Brussels I Recast), where each issue is classified into one category (contractual or non-contractual) but not both.

      Key Takeaway: The passage emphasizes how contractual obligations under the Rome I Regulation involve voluntary agreements between parties, while non-contractual obligations (such as torts, unjust enrichment, or restitution claims) are governed by the Rome II Regulation. When there's a potential overlap in contract and tort claims, both Rome I and Rome II will apply to determine which law governs the issue, with Rome II covering most non-contractual matters.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary: 

      In organisms with open mitosis, nuclear envelope breakdown at mitotic entry and re‐assembly of the nuclear envelope at the end of mitosis are important, highly regulated processes. One key regulator of nuclear envelope re‐assembly is the BAF (Barrier‐to‐Autointegration) protein, which contributes to cross‐linking of chromosomes to the nuclear envelope. Crucially, BAF has to be in a dephosphorylated form to carry out this function, and PP2A has been shown to be the phosphatase that dephosphorylates BAF. The Ankle2/LEM4 protein has previously been identified as an important regulator of PP2A in the dephosphorylation of BAF but its precise function is not fully understood, and Li and colleagues set out to investigate the function of Ankle2/LEM4 in both Drosophila flies and Drosophila cell lines.

      Strengths: 

      The authors use a combination of biochemical and imaging techniques to understand the biology of Ankle2/LEM4. On the whole, the experiments are well conducted and the results look convincing. A particular strength of this manuscript is that the authors are able to study both cellular phenotypes and organismal effects of their mutants by studying both Drosophila D‐mel cells and whole flies.

      The work presented in this manuscript significantly enhances our understanding of how Ankle2/LEM4 supports BAF dephosphorylation at the end of mitosis. Particularly interesting is the finding that Ankle2/LEM4 appears to be a bona fide PP2A regulatory protein in Drosophila, as well as the localisation of Ankle2/LEM4 and how this is influenced by the interaction between Ankle2 and the ER protein Vap33. It would be interesting to see, though, whether these insights are conserved in mammalian cells, e.g. does mammalian Vap33 also interact with LEM4? Is LEM4 also a part of the PP2A holoenzyme complex in mammalian cells? 

      We feel that conducting experiments to test the level of conservation of our findings in mammalian cells is outside the scope of our study, and we will leave it for other labs to investigate.

      Weaknesses: 

      This work is certainly impactful but more discussion and comparison of the Drosophila versus mammalian cell system would be helpful. Also, to attract the largest possible readership, the Ankle2 protein should be referred to as Ankle2/LEM4 throughout the paper to make it clear that this is the same molecule. 

      We have reinforced our presentation and discussion of similarities and differences between Ankle2 from Drosophila vs humans where relevant throughout the Introduction and Discussion sections. Additionally, we have added the mention that Ankle2 is also called LEM4 in humans in the Abstract and Introduction. However, when referring to Drosophila Ankle2, we do not use LEM4 because it is not listed as an alternate name for this gene/protein in FlyBase.

      A schematic model at the end of the final figure would be very useful to summarise the findings.

      We have already provided a schematic model in Figure S3, where we think it is better placed.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      The authors first identify Ankle2 as a regulatory subunit and direct interactor of PP2A, showing they interact both in vitro and in vivo to promote BAF dephosphorylation. The Ankyrin domain of Ankle2 is important for the interaction with PP2A. They then show Ankle2 also interacts with the ER protein Vap33 through FFAT motifs and they particularly co‐localize during mitosis. The recruitment of Ankle2 to Vap33 is essential to ER and nuclear envelop membrane in telophase while earlier in mitosis, it relies on the C terminus but not the FFAT motifs for recruitments to the nuclear membrane and spindle envelop in early mitosis. The molecular determinants and receptors are currently not known. The authors check the function of the PP2A recruitment to Ankle2/Vap33 in the context of embryos and show this recruitment pathway is functionally important. While the Ankle2/Vap33 interaction is dispensable in adult flies ‐looking at wing development, the PP2A/Ankle2 interaction is essential for correct wing and fly development. Overall, this is a very complete paper that reveals the molecular mechanism of PP2A recruitment to Ankle2 and studies both the cellular and the physiological effect of this interaction in the context of fly development.

      Strengths: 

      The paper is well written and the narrative is well‐developed. The figures are of high quality, wellcontrolled, clearly labelled, and easy to understand. They support the claims made by the authors. 

      Weaknesses: 

      The study would benefit from being discussed in the context of what is already known on Ankle2 biology in C.elegans and human cells. It is important to highlight the structures shown in the paper are alphafold models, rather than validated structures. 

      We have enhanced our presentation of what is known about LEM‐4L/Ankle2 in C. elegans and humans in the Introduction, and further developed comparisons of our findings regarding Drosophila Ankle2 with these orthologs in the Results and Discussion sections. We have also specified in all sections and figure legends that the structures shown are AlphaFold3 models.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review): 

      Summary: 

      The authors were interested in how Ankle2 regulates nuclear envelope reformation after cell division. Other published manuscripts, including those from the authors, show without a doubt that Ankle2 plays a role in this critical process. However, the mechanism by which Ankle2 functions was unclear. Previous work using worms and humans (Asencio et al., 2012) established that human ANKLE2 could bind endogenous PP2A subunits. The binding was direct and was mediated through a region before and including the first ankyrin repeat in human ANKLE2. In addition to its interaction with PP2A, Asencio et al., 2012 also show that ANKLE2 regulates VRK1 kinase activity. Together PP2A and VRK1 regulate BAF phosphorylation for proper nuclear envelope reformation. Here, the authors provide more evidence for interaction with PP2A by also mapping the domain of interaction to the ankyrin repeat in Drosophila. In addition, the ankyrin repeat is essential for nuclear envelope reformation after division. They show that Ankle2 can bind in a PP2A complex without other known regulatory subunits of PP2A. The authors also identify a novel interaction with ER protein Vap33, but functional relevance for this interaction in nuclear envelope reformation is not provided in the manuscript, which the authors explicitly state. This manuscript does not comment on the activity of Ballchen/VRK1 in relation to Ankle2 loss and BAF phosphorylation or nuclear envelope reformation, even though links were previously shown by multiple studies (Asencio et al., Link et al., Apridita Sebastian et al.,). Nuclear envelope defects were rescued by the reduction of VRK1 in two of these manuscripts. It is possible that BAF phosphorylation phenotypes can be contributed by both PP2A inactivity and VRK1 overactivity due to the loss of Ankle2.

      Strengths: 

      This manuscript is a useful finding linking Ankle2 function during nuclear envelope reformation to the PP2A complex. The authors present solid data showing that Ankle2 can form a complex with PP2A‐29B and Mts and generate a phosphoproteomic resource that is fundamentally important to understanding Ankle2 biology. 

      Weaknesses: 

      However, the main findings/conclusions about subcellular localization might be incomplete since they are drawn from overexpression experiments. In addition, throughout the text, some conclusions are overstated or are not supported by data. 

      It is true that all experiments studying subcellular localization were done with tagged proteins overexpressed in flies and cell culture. Nevertheless, we show that Ankle2‐GFP is functional since it rescues phenotypes resulting from the loss of endogenous Ankle2 in both flies and cultured cells. The antibodies we generated against Ankle2 were unable to reliably detect the endogenous protein by immunofluorescence. We have now stated this caveat in our manuscript. Regarding the validity of our conclusions in relation to our data, we address each point raised by the reviewer under the Recommendations for the authors. In some cases, we have adjusted our conclusions and in other cases, we have provided additional clarification or justification. 

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      There are a few experimental issues that should be addressed, specific comments are listed below: 

      (1) Figure 1F: In this experiment, the authors immunoprecipitate GFP‐PP2A‐29B or PP2A‐B29BGFP and Western blot for Ankle2 and Mts to demonstrate that both are co‐immunoprecipitated. To demonstrate that these interactions are specific, the authors should also blot for a protein that is expected to definitely NOT co‐immunoprecipitate with PP2A‐B29; e.g. tubulin. 

      Our conclusion that GFP‐PP2A‐29B and PP2A‐29B‐GFP specifically interact with Ankle2 and Mts is also based on mass spectrometry analysis of the purification products from embryos and cells in culture, comparing with products of purification of GFP alone (Fig 1E‐F, S1C‐D and Tables S2, S3). The lists of identified proteins reveal that most proteins (including tubulins) are not enriched with GFP‐PP2A‐29B or PP2A‐29B‐GFP like Ankle2 and Mts are.

      (2) Figure 2A: The colour coding of the dots is not explained in the figure legend. 

      We have now added the explanation.

      (3) Figure 2B: The competition experiment is a good idea. Do the authors get the same results when they conduct the experiment the other way round, i.e. keep the concentration of Tws the same but increase the concentration of Ankle2? 

      We have tried this reverse experiment but saw little effect. The failure to observe displacement of Tws by Ankle2 in this context could be due to a higher affinity of Tws than Ankle2 in the PP2A complex, or to lower expression levels achieved for Ankle2 (a larger protein) relative to Tws.

      (4) Figure 5D: The hyperphosphorylation of BAF is very difficult to see, and it is impossible to tell whether the hyperphosphorylation has been rescued or not by the different Ankle2 constructs. Can the phosphorylated and the hyperphosphorylated bands be separated better? This panel needs significant improvements to support the claims in the text.

      In our opinion, the hyperphosphorylated (upper band) and unphosphorylated (lower band) forms of BAF are well resolved and readily distinguishable. The fainter band in the middle could correspond to a partially phosphorylated form of BAF but we do not venture to speculate on its precise identity nor do we need it to draw our conclusions. The important information from this blot is that the level of unphosphorylated BAF after Ankle2 RNAi increases when Ankle2WT‐GFP and Ankle2Fm+FL1‐GFP are expressed but not when Flag‐GFP or Ankle2ANK‐GFP are expressed. In these experiments, the rescue of unphosphorylated BAF is incomplete because not all cells express the GFP‐tagged protein in our non‐clonal stable cell lines.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) The alphafold models need to be labelled as such better on the figures, to distinguish them from X‐ray crystallography structures. Alphafold will always propose a solution but it is not necessarily correct. 

      We have added the note “MODEL” directly in Figures 2C, 2D, 4F and S3B, in addition to the information already provided in the text and figure legends specifying that these are models generated by AlphaFold3.

      (2) Figure 4 F. Annotate the Ankle2 FL1 peptide. 

      We have indicated the amino acid residues in the figure.

      (3) Problems with the statistical tests. T‐tests cannot be used for comparing multiple groups, as this favors error propagation. 

      All of our t‐tests compare only two groups at a time, as indicated. In this regard, our labeling in Fig 5C may have been misleading. We have now changed it.

      (4) Close‐ups of ring canal in Figure S2. In Figure S2, there seem to be lots of GFP‐Ankle2 vesicles in the cytoplasm of the oocyte. 

      We agree that the image showing Ankle2‐GFP alone in the RNAi Vap33 condition suggested a cytoplasmic granular localization of unknown nature. However, upon examination, we realized that this image did not correspond to the same z‐step as the matching merged image (which also

      included DNA staining). We have now replaced the image with the correct one.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      Be more accurate about what conclusions can be made from reported data, particularly from overexpression and deletion studies. 

      (1) The domain analysis for physical interaction is quite thorough. However, localization information is taken from overexpressed constructs. While these data show what could happen, the authors are not using endogenous levels of Ankle2 in cells or tissues that are known to require Ankle2. As a result, it is difficult to determine whether localization results are biologically meaningful. 

      We have added the following text at the end of the third Results section:

      “We were unable to examine the localization of endogenous Ankle2 because the antibodies that we generated gave inconclusive results in immunofluorescence. For the remainder of our study, we relied on the overexpression of Ankle2‐GFP, which may not perfectly reflect the localization and function of endogenous Ankle2. However, Ankle2‐GFP is functional as it can rescue phenotypes observed when endogenous Ankle2 is depleted (see below).”

      (2) The data showing that Ankle2 is a regulator unit of the PP2A complex also relies on in vitro binding assays in an over‐expression context. Data certainly show Ankle2 can bind proteins in the PP2A complex when overexpressed. However, the authors could not isolate enough of the complex from the animal to test function, so Ankle2 acting as a regulatory subunit isn't functionally shown. There are other possibilities, such as Ankle2 acts as a scaffold for complex assembly.  

      The competition experiments shown in Fig 2 are based on complexes assembling in cells and are not in vitro binding assays. We show 4 lines of evidence supporting the idea that Ankle2 functions as a regulatory subunit of PP2A: 1) Ankle2 interacts with the structural (PP2A‐29B) and catalytic (Mts) subunits of PP2A without any known regulatory subunit of PP2A. 2) Depletion of Ankle2 leads to the hyperphosphorylation of the known PP2A substrate BAF. 3) The PP2A regulatory subunit Tws/B55 competes with Ankle2 for formation of a complex with PP2A. 4) AlphaFold3 predicts that Ankle2 engages in a complex with PP2A at a position similar to that of known regulatory subunits of PP2A including Tws/B55, and consistent with their mutually exclusive presence in PP2A complexes. If Ankle2 acted as a scaffold for the formation of a PP2A complex containing other regulatory subunits, we would expect to detect Ankle2 and another regulatory subunit in the same complex.

      (3) Throughout the text, some conclusions are overstated or are not supported by data. Examples are below: 

      a. Page 1: "we show for the first time that Ankle2 is a regulatory subunit of PP2A"  The authors show binding and changes in BAF phosphorylation levels, but changes in PP2A activity with modulation of Ankle2 weren't shown. 

      We have replaced this phrase with this one:

      “…we provide several lines of evidence that suggest that Ankle2 is a regulatory subunit of PP2A…”

      b. Page 3: "The requirement for Ankle2 in the development of the central nervous system was initially discovered through its targeting by the microcephaly‐causing Zika virus (Shah et al.,

      2018)." 

      This is not the first paper showing ANKLE2 plays a role in the development of the CNS. Yamamoto et al., 2014 identified mutants in Ankle2 with defects in CNS development in flies and humans, establishing it as a human microcephaly‐causing gene. 

      We are sorry for this oversight. We have now cited this important work.

      c. Page 6: "Moreover, BAF appears to be the only obligatory substrate of Ankle2‐dependent dephosphorylation for cell proliferation as lowering the dose of the BAF kinase NHK‐1/Ballchen rescues wing development defects caused by the partial depletion of Ankle2 (Li et al., 2024)."  It is unclear why the authors conclude this since Ballchen/VRK1 can phosphorylate many things besides BAF. 

      Although the conclusion cannot be drawn categorically, it seems to be by far the most likely scenario. However, we agree that in principle, other mechanisms could also account for these genetic observations, such as the dephosphorylation of another, still unidentified obligatory substrate of PP2A‐Ankle2 that would also be phosphorylated by NHK‐1/Ballchen. However, we have also shown that expression of an unphosphorylatable mutant form of BAF rescues phenotypes observed upon loss of Ankle2 function (Li et al, 2024). We have changed our sentence as follows:

      "Moreover, BAF could be the only obligatory substrate of Ankle2‐dependent dephosphorylation for cell proliferation as lowering the dose of the BAF kinase NHK‐1/Ballchen or expression of an unphosphorylatable mutant form of BAF rescues wing development defects caused by the partial depletion of Ankle2 (Li et al., 2024).”

      d. Page 10: "These results suggest that a Vap33‐Ankle2‐PP2A complex can mediate the recruitment of a pool of PP2A at the NE."

      There is insufficient evidence to indicate that Vap33‐Ankle2‐PP2A exists in a stable state in the cell and that this complex mediates recruitment of PP2A at the NE. The images do not include Vap33, showing no evidence it is present when PP2A is at the NE and the complex could only be detected with overexpression. 

      We agree with this caveat and recognize the need to be cautious when proposing our model. In this regard, we feel that our wording is reasonable and appropriate, using “suggest” rather than “prove”, “show” or “indicate”.

      e. Page 11: These results suggest that the interaction of Ankle2 with PP2A is essential for its function in BAF dephosphorylation and nuclear reassembly." Page 14: "these results indicate that the interaction of Ankle2 with PP2A is essential during embryo". Page 14: "These results indicate that the interaction of Ankle2 with PP2A but not with Vap33 is essential for its function during cell proliferation in imaginal wing disc development." 

      These experiments show that the ankyrin repeat in Ankle2 is necessary for these processes. It does not say PP2A interaction with Ankle2 is necessary because other things could bind the domain. 

      We have revised the segments of the text mentioned, taking the reviewer’s legitimate concerns into consideration. We have also added the following sentence to the Discussion:

      “However, it remains formally possible that the deletion of Ankyrin repeats used to disrupt the Ankle2‐PP2A interaction abrogated another, unknown aspect of Ankle2 function.”

      f. Page 12: "Overall, we conclude that in addition to its N‐terminal PP2A‐interacting Ankyrin domain, Ankle2 requires the integrity of its C‐terminal portion for its essential function in nuclear reassembly." 

      No data was shown for differences in nuclear reassembly, only the ability for ANKLE2 truncation mutants to localize to the nuclear envelope. It isn't clear whether the nuclear envelope reformation is normal in Figure S6 which the authors refer to. Lamin staining could help determine and conclude the C‐terminal region is important for nuclear envelope reformation. 

      Our conclusion is drawn from the results shown in Figures S4 and S5 (described in the same section), where a rescue assay in cells was performed to assess the functionality of different variants of Ankle2‐GFP when endogenous Ankle2 was depleted. In this assay, Lamin and DNA staining were used to examine nuclear reassembly (as in Figure 5). Figure S6 shows the localizations of the different variants of Ankle2‐GFP, but endogenous Ankle2 is not depleted in these cells.

      g. Page 13: "We conclude that the ability of Ankle2 to interact with PP2A is required for the timely recruitment of BAF at reassembling nuclei and ensuing NE reassembly."

      It's possible the Ankyrin domain in ANKLE2 is interacting with proteins other than PP2A to recruit BAF at reassembling nuclei, especially since ANKLE2 is found to regulate VRK1 (Link 2019) which has been found to phosphorylate BAF during the cell cycle (Molitor 2014). Additionally, the images in Figure 6A appear to show fully reassembled nuclear envelopes in all mutants by 180s. 

      This point relates to point e, raised above by this reviewer. We have re‐written the sentence as follows:

      “We conclude that the Ankyrin domain, required for the ability of Ankle2 to interact with PP2A, is necessary for the timely recruitment of BAF at reassembling nuclei and ensuing NE reassembly.”

      Please note that in this paragraph, we discuss a delay in RFP‐BAF recruitment, rather than the complete elimination of this recruitment. 

      h. Page 16: "Our unbiased phosphoproteomic analysis confirmed that BAF dephosphorylation depends on Ankle2, despite the absence of a detectable interaction between Drosophila Ankle2 and BAF, which may be due to the lack of a LEM domain in the former (Fishburn et al., 2024). Moreover, while Ankle2 was shown to bind and inhibit the BAF counteracting kinase VRK1 in humans (Asencio et al., 2012), we detected no interaction between Ankle2 and NHK‐1/Ballchen (VRK1 ortholog) in Drosophila. This suggests that the loss of Ankle2 causes BAF hyperphosphorylation by preventing PP2A‐dependent dephosphorylation rather than by preventing inhibition of NHK‐1"

      There could be transient binding between Ankle2 and Ballchen/VRK1/NHK‐1 or activity can be indirect, but that doesn't mean there is not a contribution of BAF phosphorylation by Ballchen/VRK1/NHK‐1. Genetic evidence from three model systems, including Drosophila, indicates there is a strong genetic interaction between Ankle2 and Ballchen/VRK1/NHK‐1 that includes rescue of lethality.

      We agree and we have re‐written in this way:

      “While a putative interaction between Ankle2 and NHK‐1 in Drosophila could occur transiently, thereby escaping detection, the simplest interpretation of our results is that the loss of Ankle2 causes BAF hyperphosphorylation by preventing PP2A‐dependent dephosphorylation rather than by preventing inhibition of NHK‐1.”

      We do not question the fact that Ballchen/VRK1/NHK‐1 phosphorylates BAF and genetically interacts with Ankle2. The antagonistic relationship between Ballchen/VRK1/NHK‐1 and Ankle2 observed genetically can be explained by the fact that the kinase phosphorylates BAF while PP2AAnkle2 dephosphorylates it, without the need to invoke an additional inhibition of the kinase by Ankle2.

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    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the current reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      The hypothesis is based on the idea that inversions capture genetic variants that have antagonistic effects on male sexual success (via some display traits) and survival of females (or both sexes) until reproduction. Furthermore, a sufficiently skewed distribution of male sexual success will tend to generate synergistic epistasis for male fitness even if the individual loci contribute to sexually selected traits in an additive way. This should favor inversions that keep these male-beneficial alleles at different loci together at a cis-LD. A series of simulations are presented and show that the scenario works at least under some conditions. While a polymorphism at a single locus with large antagonistic effects can be maintained for a certain range of parameters, a second such variant with somewhat smaller effects tends to be lost unless closely linked. It becomes much more likely for genomically distant variants that add to the antagonism to spread if they get trapped in an inversion; the model predicts this should drive accumulation of sexually antagonistic variants on the inversion versus standard haplotype, leading to the evolution of haplotypes with very strong cumulative antagonistic pleiotropic effects. This idea has some analogies with one of predominant hypotheses for the evolution of sex chromosomes, and the authors discuss these similarities. The model is quite specific, but the basic idea is intuitive and thus should be robust to the details of model assumption. It makes perfect sense in the context of the geographic pattern of inversion frequencies. One prediction of the models (notably that leads to the evolution of nearly homozygously lethal haplotypes) does not seem to reflect the reality of chromosomal inversions in Drosophila, as the authors carefully discuss, but it is the case of some other "supergenes", notably in ants. So the theoretical part is a strong novel contribution.

      We appreciate the detailed and accurate summary of our main theoretic results.

      To provide empirical support for this idea, the authors study the dynamics of inversions in population cages over one generation, tracking their frequencies through amplicon sequencing at three time points: (young adults), embryos and very old adult offspring of either sex (>2 months from adult emergence). Out of four inversions included in the experiment, two show patterns consistent with antagonistic effects on male sexual success (competitive paternity) and the survival of offspring, especially females, until an old age, which the authors interpret as consistent with their theory.

      As I have argued in my comments on previous versions, the experiment only addresses one of the elements of the theoretical hypothesis, namely antagonistic effects of inversions on male reproductive success and other fitness components, in particular of females. Furthermore, the design of this experiment is not ideal from the viewpoint of the biological hypothesis it is aiming to test. This is in part because, rather than testing for the effects of inversion on male reproductive success versus the key fitness components of survival to maturity and female reproductive output, it looks at the effects on male reproductive success versus survival to a rather old age of 2 months. The relevance of survival until old age to fitness under natural conditions is unclear, as the authors now acknowledge. Furthermore, up to 15% of males that may have contributed to the next generation did not survive until genotyping, and thus the difference between these males' inversion frequency and that in their offspring may be confounded by this potential survival-based sampling bias. The experiment does not test for two other key elements of the proposed theory: the assumption of frequency-dependence of selection on male sexual success, and the prediction of synergistic epistasis for male fitness among genetic variants in the inversion. To be fair, particularly testing for synergistic epistasis would be exceedingly difficult, and the authors have now included a discussion of the above caveats and limitations, making their conclusions more tentative. This is good but of course does not make these limitations of the experiment go away. These limitations mean that the paper is stronger as a theoretical than as an empirical contribution.

      We discuss the choice to focus on exploring the potential antagonistic effects of the inversion karyotype on male reproductive success and survival in our general response above. Primarily, this prediction seemed to be the most specific to the proposed model as compared to other alternate models. Still, further studies are clearly needed to elucidate the potential frequency dependence and genetic architecture of the inversions.

      Regarding the choice of age at collection, it is unknown to what degree our selected collection age of 10 weeks correlates with survival in the wild, but we feel confident that there will be some positive correlation.

      We now further clarify that across our experiments, a minimum of 5% and a mean of 9% of the males used in the parental generation died before collection. These proportions do not appear sufficient to explain the differences between paternal and embryo inversion frequencies shown in Figure 9.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In their manuscript the authors address the question whether the inversion polymorphism in D. melanogaster can be explained by sexually antagonistic selection. They designed a new simulation tool to perform computer simulations, which confirmed their hypothesis. They also show a tradeoff between male reproduction and survival. Furthermore, some inversions display sex-specific survival.

      Strengths:

      It is an interesting idea on how chromosomal inversions may be maintained

      Weaknesses:

      The authors motivate their study by the observation that inversions are maintained in D. melanogaster and because inversions are more frequent closer to the equator, the authors conclude that it is unlikely that the inversion contributes to adaptation in more stressful environments. Rather the inversion seems to be more common in habitats that are closer to the native environment of ancestral Drosophila populations.

      While I do agree with the authors that this observation is interesting, I do not think that it rules out a role in local adaptation. After all, the inversion is common in Africa, so it is perfectly conceivable that the non-inverted chromosome may have acquired a mutation contributing to the novel environment.

      Based on their hypothesis, the authors propose an alternative strategy, which could maintain the inversion in a population. They perform some computer simulations, which are in line with the predicted behavior. Finally, the authors perform experiments and interpret the results as empirical evidence for their hypothesis. While the reviewer is not fully convinced about the empirical support, the key problem is that the proposed model does not explain the patterns of clinal variation observed for inversions in D. melanogaster. According to the proposed model, the inversions should have a similar frequency along latitudinal clines. So in essence, the authors develop a complicated theory because they felt that the current models do not explain the patterns of clinal variation, but this model also fails to explain the pattern of clinal variation.

      To the contrary – in the Discussion paragraph beginning on Line 671, we explain why we would predict that a tradeoff between survival and reproduction should lead to clinal inversion frequencies. We suggest that a karyotype associated with a survival penalty should be increasingly disadvantageous in more challenging environments (such as high altitudes and latitudes for this species). Furthermore, an advantage in male reproductive competition conferred by that same haplotype may be reduced by the lower population densities that we would expect in more challenging environments (meaning that each female should encounter fewer males). Individually or jointly, these two factors predict that the equilibrium frequency of a balanced inversion frequency polymorphism should depend on a local population’s environmental harshness and population density, with the ensuing prediction that inversion frequency should correlate with certain environmental variables.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this study, McAllester and Pool develop a new model to explain the maintenance of balanced inversion polymorphism, based on (sexually) antagonistic alleles and a trade-off between male reproduction and survival (in females or both sexes). Simulations of this model support the plausibility of this mechanism. In addition, the authors use experiments on four naturally occurring inversion polymorphisms in D. melanogaster and find tentative evidence for one aspect of their theoretical model, namely the existence of the above-mentioned trade-off in two out of the four inversions.

      Strengths:

      (1) The study develops and analyzes a new (Drosophila melanogaster-inspired) model for the maintenance of balanced inversion polymorphism, combining elements of (sexually) antagonistically (pleiotropic) alleles, negative frequency-dependent selection and synergistic epistasis. Simulations of the model suggest that the hypothesized mechanism might be plausible.

      (2) The above-mentioned model assumes, as a specific example, a trade-off between male reproductive display and survival; in the second part of their study, the authors perform laboratory experiments on four common D. melanogaster inversions to study whether these polymorphisms may be subject to such a trade-off. The authors observe that two of the four inversions show suggestive evidence that is consistent with a trade-off between male reproduction and survival.

      Open issues:

      (1) A gap in the current modeling is that, while a diploid situation is being studied, the model does not investigate the effects of varying degrees of dominance. It would thus be important and interesting, as the authors mention, to fill this gap in future work.

      (2) It will also be important to further explore and corroborate the potential importance and generality of trade-offs between different fitness components in maintaining inversion polymorphisms in future work.

      We appreciate the work put in to evaluating, improving, and summarizing our study. We agree that further work studying the effects of dominance and of the fitness components of the inversions is important.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      l. 354 : I don't understand what the authors mean by "an antagonistic and non-antagonistic allele". If there is a antagonistic polymorphism at a locus, then both alleles have antagonistic effects; i.e., allele B increases trait 1 and reduced trait 2 relative to allele A and vice versa.

      Edited, agreed that the terminology used here was sub-optimal.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      The motivation for their model is their claim that the clinal inversion frequencies are not compatible with local adaptation. The reviewer doubts this strong statement. Furthermore, the proposed model also fails to explain the inversion frequencies in natural populations.

      Hence, rather than building a straw man, it would be better if the authors first show their experiments and then present their model as an explanation for the empirical results. Nevertheless, it is also clear that the empirical data are not very strong and cannot be fully explained by the proposed model.

      This claim that we reject any role of local adaptation in clinal variation and selection upon inversion polymorphism does not hold up in a reading of our manuscript. We even suggest that locally varying selective pressures must be playing some role, although that does not imply that local adaptation is the ultimate driver of inversion frequencies. Indeed, we suggest that local adaptation alone is an insufficient explanation for inversion frequency clines in D. melanogaster, including because (1) these frequency clines do not approach the alternate fixed genotypes predicted by local directional selection, (2) these derived inversions tend to be more frequent in more ancestral environments (l.113-158).

      In our public review response above, and in the Discussion section of our paper, we explain why our model can predict both the clinal frequencies of many Drosophila inversions and their intermediate maximal frequencies. Of course, we do not predict that most inversions in this species should follow the specific tradeoff investigated here. In fact, we were surprised to find even two inversions that experimentally supported our predicted tradeoff. Still, it remains possible that other inversions in this species are subject to other balanced tradeoffs not investigated here, which could help explain why they rarely reach high local frequencies.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      My previous comments have been adequately addressed.


      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      […]

      To provide empirical support for this idea, the authors study the dynamics of inversions in population cages over one generation, tracking their frequencies through amplicon sequencing at three time points: (young adults), embryos and very old adult offspring of either sex (>2 months from adult emergence). Out of four inversions included in the experiment, two show patterns consistent with antagonistic effects on male sexual success (competitive paternity) and the survival of offspring, especially females, until an old age, which the authors interpret as consistent with their theory.

      There are several reasons why the support from these data for the proposed theory is not waterproof.

      (1) As I have already pointed out in my previous review, survival until 2 months (in fact, it is 10 weeks and so 2.3 months) of age is of little direct relevance to fitness, whether under natural conditions or under typical lab conditions.

      The authors argue this objection away with two arguments

      First, citing Pool (2015) they claim that the average generation time (i.e. the average age at which flies reproduce) in nature is 24 days. That paper made an estimate of 14.7 generations per year under the North Carolina climate. As also stated in Pool (2015), the conditions in that locality for Drosophila reproduction and development are not suitable during three months of the year. This yields an average generation length of about 19.5 days during the 9 months during which the flies can reproduce. On the highly nutritional food used in the lab and at the optimal temperature of 25 C, Drosophila need about 11-12 days to develop from egg to adult. Even assuming these perfect conditions, the average age (counted from adult eclosion) would be about 8 days. In practice, larval development in nature is likely longer for nutritional and temperature reasons, and thus the genomic data analyzed by Pool imply that the average adult age of reproducing flies in nature would be about 5 days, and not 24 days, and even less 10 weeks. This corresponds neatly to the 2-6 days median life expectancy of Drosophila adults in the field based on capture-recapture (e.g., Rosewell and Shorrocks 1987).

      Second, the authors also claim that survival over a period of 2 month is highly relevant because flies have to survive long periods where reproduction is not possible. However, to survive the winter flies enter a reproductive diapause, which involves profound physiological changes that indeed allow them to survive for months, remaining mostly inactive, stress resistant and hidden from predators. Flies in the authors' experiment were not diapausing, given that they were given plentiful food and kept warm. It is still possible that survival to the ripe old age of 10 weeks under these conditions still correlates well with surviving diapause under harsh conditions, but if so, the authors should cite relevant data. Even then, I do not think this allows the authors to conclude that longevity is "the main selective pressure" on Drosophila (l. 936).

      This is overall a thoughtfully presented critique and we have endeavored to improve our discussion of Pool (2015) and to clarify some of the language used about survival elsewhere. While we agree that challenges other than survival to 10 weeks are very relevant to Drosophila melanogaster, collection at 10 weeks does encompass some of these other challenges. Egg to adult viability still contributes to the frequencies of the inversions at collection and is not separable from longevity in this data. Collection at longevity was chosen in part to encompass all lifetime fitness challenges that might influence the inversion frequency at collection, albeit still within permissive laboratory conditions. Future experiments exploring specific stressors independently and beyond permissive lab conditions would generate a clearer picture.

      In addition to general edits, the specific phrase mentioned at 1. 936 [now line 1003] has been revised from “In many such cases females are in reproductive diapause, and so longevity is the main selective pressure.” to “While longevity is a key selective pressure underlying overwintering, the relationship between longevity in permissive lab conditions without diapause and in natural conditions under diapause is unclear (Schmidt et al. 2005; Flatt 2020), and our experiment represents just one of many possible ways to examine tradeoffs involving survival.”

      (2) It appears that the "parental" (in fact, paternal) inversion frequency was estimated by sequencing sires that survived until the end of the two-week mating period. No information is provided on male mortality during the mating period, but substantial mortality is likely given constant courtship and mating opportunities. If so, the difference between the parental and embryo inversion frequency could reflect the differential survival of males until the point of sampling rather than / in addition to sexual selection.

      We have further clarified that when referenced as parental frequency, the frequency presented is ½ the paternal frequency as the mothers were homokaryotypic for the standard arrangement. We chose to present both due to considerations in representing the frequency change from paternal to embryo frequencies, where a hypothetical change from 0.20 frequency in fathers to 0.15 frequency in embryos represents a selective benefit (a frequency increase in the population), despite the reality that this is a decrease in allele frequency between paternal and embryo cohorts.

      We mentioned a maximum 15% paternal mortality at line 827 [now l.1056], but have now added complete data on the counts of flies in the experiment as a supplemental table (Table S1) and have added or corrected further references to this in the results and methods [lines 555, 638, 975]. It is true that this may influence the observed frequency changes to some degree, and while we adjusted our sampling method to account for the effects of this mortality on statistical power [l.1056ff], we have now edited the manuscript to better highlight potential effects of this phenomenon on the recorded frequency changes.

      It is also worth noting that, if mortality among fathers over the mating period is codirectional with mortality among aged offspring, this would bias the results against detecting an opposing antagonistic selective effect of the inversions on paternity share. This is now also mentioned in the manuscript, l.639ff.

      (3) Finally, irrespective of the above caveats, the experimental data only address one of the elements of the theoretical hypothesis, namely antagonistic effects of inversions on reproduction and survival, notably that of females. It does not test for two other key elements of the proposed theory: the assumption of frequency-dependence of selection on male sexual success, and the prediction of synergistic epistasis for male fitness among genetic variants in the inversion. To be fair, particularly testing the latter prediction would be exceedingly difficult. Nonetheless, these limitations of the experiment mean that the paper is much stronger theoretical than empirical contribution.

      This is a fair criticism of the limitations of our results, and we now summarize such caveats more directly in the discussion summary, lines 876ff.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review): 

      […]

      Comments on the latest version:

      I would like to give an example of the confusing terminology of the authors:

      "Additionally, fitness conveyed by an allele favoring display quality is also frequency-dependent: since mating success depends on the display qualities of other males, the relative advantage of a display trait will be diminished as more males carry it..."

      I do not understand the difference to an advantageous allele, as it increases in frequency the frequency increase of this allele decreases, but this has nothing to do with frequency dependent selection. In my opinion, the authors re-define frequency dependent selection, as for frequency dependent selection needs to change with frequency, but from their verbal description this is not clear.

      We have edited this text for greater clarity, now line 232ff. We did not seek to redefine frequency dependence, and did mean by “the relative advantage of a display trait will be diminished” that an equivalent s would diminish with frequency. We have now remedied terminological issues introduced in the prior revision with regard to frequency dependent selection.

      One example of how challenging the style of the manuscript is comes from their description of the DNA extraction procedure. In principle a straightforward method, but even here the authors provide a convoluted uninformative description of the procedure.

      We have edited for clarity the text on lines 1016-1020. Citing a published protocol and mentioning our modifications seems an appropriate trade-off between representing what was done accurately, citing the sources we relied on in doing it, and limiting the volume of information in the main text for such a straightforward and common method. 

      It is not apparent to the reviewer why the authors have not invested more effort to make their manuscript digestible.

      We have invested a great deal of effort in making this manuscript as clear as we are able to.  We regret that our writing has not been to this reviewer’s liking. We believe we have been highly responsive to all specific criticisms, including revising all passages cited as unclear. In this round, we have again scrutinized the entire manuscript for any opportunity to clarify it, and we have made further changes throughout.  Although our subject matter is conceptually nuanced, we nevertheless remain optimistic that a careful, fresh reading of our revised manuscript would yield a more favorable impression.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      […]

      Weaknesses:

      A gap in the current modeling is that, while a diploid situation is being studied, the model does not investigate the effects of varying degrees of dominance. It would be important and interesting to fill this gap in future work.

      Agreed, and now reinforced at lines 892ff.

      Comments on the latest version:

      Most of the comments which I have made in my public review have been adequately addressed.

      Some of the writing still seems somewhat verbose and perhaps not yet maximally succinct; some additional line-by-line polishing might still be helpful at this stage in terms of further improving clarity and flow (for the authors to consider and decide).

      We have made further changes and some polishing in this draft, and greatly appreciate the guidance provided in improving the draft so far. 

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) While the model results are convincing, some of the verbal interpretation is confusing. In particular, the authors state that in their model the allele favoring male display quality shows a negative frequency dependence whereas the alternative allele has a positive frequency dependence. This does not make sense to me in the context of population genetics theory. For a one-locus, two-allele model the change of allele frequency under selection depends on the fitness of the genotypes concerned relative to each other. Thus, at least under no dominance assumed in this model, if the relative fitness of AA decreases with the frequency of allele A, the relative fitness of aa must decrease with the frequency of allele a. I.e., if selection is negatively frequency dependent, then it is so for both alleles.

      This phrasing was wrong, and we have edited the relevant section.

      (2) I am still not entirely sure that the synergistic epistasis assumed in the verbal model is actually generated in the simulations; this would be easy enough to check by extracting the mating success of males with different genotypes from the simulation output should be reported, e.g., as a figure supplement.

      Our new Figure S2, which depicts haplotype frequencies for a set of the simulations presented in Figure 4, should demonstrate a necessary presence of synergistic epistasis. These results further clarify that the weaker allele B is only kept when linked to A. The same fitness classes of genotype are present in the simulations with and without the inversion, so the only mechanical difference is the rate of recombination, and the only way this might change selection on the alleles is if a variant has a different fitness in one haplotype background than another – i.e. epistasis. The maintenance of haplotypes AB and ab to the exclusion of Ab and aB relies on the lesser relative fitness of Ab and aB. And since survival values are multiplicative, this additional contribution must come from the mate success of AB being disproportionately larger than Ab or aB, indicating the emergent synergistic epistasis posited by our model. We have clarified this point in the text at line 363ff.

      (3) l. 318ff: What was this set number of males? I could not find this information anywhere. Also, this model of the mating system is commonly referred to as "best of N", so the authors may want to include this label in the description.

      We indicate this detail just after the referenced line, now reworded and on l. 338-340 as “For each female’s mating competition, 100 males were sampled, though see Figure S1 for plots with varying encounter number.”  Among these edits, “one hundred” has been changed to a numeral for easier skimming, and Figure S1 is now referenced here earlier in the text. Several edits have also been made in the caption of Figures 2 and 3, and in the relevant methods section to clarify the number of encountered males simulated, mention best of N terminology, and clarify how the quality score is used in the mate competition.

      (4) The description of the experiment is still confusing. The number of individuals of each sex entered in each mating cage is missing from the Methods (l. 914); although I did finally find it in the Results. These flies were laying over 2 weeks - does this mean that offspring from the entire period were used to obtain the embryo and aged offspring frequencies, or only from a particular egg collection? If the former, does this mean that the offspring obtained from different egg batches were aged separately? Were the offspring aged in cages or bottles, at what density? Given that only those males that survived until the end of the two-week mating period were sequenced, it is important to know what % of the initial number of males these survivors were. A substantial mortality of the parental males could bias the estimate of parental frequencies. How many parental males, embryos and aged offspring were sequenced? Were all individuals of a given cage and stage extracted and sequenced as a single pool or were there multiple pools? The description could also be structured better. For example, the food and grape agar recipes and cage construction are inserted at random points of the description of the crossing design, which does not help.

      We have now reorganized and edited these portions of the Methods text. Portions of this comment overlap with edits responding to (2) of the Public Review and below for l. 921 in Details. Offspring from different laying periods were aged in different bottles, further separated by the time at which they eclosed. They were then pooled for DNA extraction and library preparation by sex and a binary early or late eclosion time. This data was present in the “D. mel. Sample Size” column of supplemental tables S6 and S7 (now S7 and S8), but we have added and referenced a new table to specifically collate the sample sizes of different experimental stages, table S1. Now referenced at lines 555, 638, 975, 1057.

      (5) The caption of figure 9 and the discussion of its results should be clear and explicit about the fact that "adult offspring" in Fig 9A and "female" and "male" refers to adults surviving to old age (whereas "parental" in Fig 9A refers to young adults in their reproductive prime. This has consequences for the interpretation of the difference between "parental" and "adult offspring", as it combines one generation of usual selection as it occurs under the conditions of the lab culture (young adult at generation t -> young adult in generation t+1) with an additional step of selection for longevity. Thus, a marked change in allele frequency does not imply that the "parental" frequency does not represent an equilibrium frequency of the inversions under the lab culture conditions. Furthermore, it would be useful to state explicitly that Figure 9B represents the same results as figure 9A, but with the aged offspring split by sex.

      Figure caption edited to provide further clarity on the age of cohorts and presented data, along with the relevant results section (2.3) referencing this figure.

      We avoid making any statements about the equilibrium frequencies of inversions under lab conditions, and whether or not any step of our experiment reflects such equilibria, because our investigation does not rely upon or test for such conditions. Instead, our analysis focuses on whether inversions have contrasting effects (as indicated by frequency changes that are incompatible with neutral sampling) between different life history components.  Under our model, such frequency reversals might be detectable both at equilibrium balanced inversion frequencies and also at frequencies some distance away from equilibria. We have now clarified this point at l. 970-972.

      Details:

      l. 211: this should be modified as male-only costs are now included.

      Edited. “survival likelihood (of either or both sexes).”

      l. 343: misplaced period

      Edited.

      l. 814: "We confirmed model predictions...": This sounds like it refers to an empirical confirmation of a theory prediction, but I think the authors just want to say that their simulations predicted antagonistic variants can be maintained at an intermediate equilibrium frequency. So the wording should be changed to avoid ambiguity.

      Edited. Now line 869.

      l. 853: How can a genome be "empty"? Do the authors mean an absence of any polymorphism?

      Edited to: “In SAIsim, a population is instantiated as a python object, and populated with individuals which are also represented by python objects. These individuals may be instantiated using genomes specified by the user, or by default carry no genomic variation.” Lines 913ff.

      l. 853: I do not see this diagramed in Figure 5

      Apologies, fixed to Fig. 2

      l. 864: is crossing-over in the model limited to female gametogenesis (reflecting the Drosophila case) or does it occur in both sexes?

      There is a variable in the simulator to make crossover female-specific. All simulations were performed with female-only crossover. Edited for clarity. “While the simulator can allow recombination in both sexes, all simulations presented only generate crossovers and gene conversion events for female gametes, in accordance with the biology of D. melanogaster.” Lines 928-929.

      l. 906: "F2" is ambiguous; does this mean that the mix of lines was allowed to breed for two generations? Also, in other places in the manuscript these flies appear to be referred to are "parental". So do not use F2.

      Edited, F2 language removed and replaced with being allowed to breed for two generations. Now lines 967ff.

      l. 910: this is incorrect/imprecise; what can be inferred is the frequency of the inversions in male gametes that contributed to fertilization. This would correspond to the frequency in successful males only if each successful male genotype had the same paternity share.

      Edited, now “Since no inversions could be inherited through the mothers, inversion frequencies among successful male gametes could be inferred from their pooled offspring.” Now line 994.

      l. 912: "without a controlled day/night cycle" meaning what? Constant light? Constant darkness? Daylight falling through the windows?

      Edited to “Unless otherwise noted, all flies were kept in a lab space of 23°C with around a degree of temperature fluctuation and without a controlled day/night cycle. Light exposure was dependent on the varying use of the space by laboratory workers but amounted to near constant exposure to at least a minimal level of lighting, with some variable light due to indirect lighting from adjacent rooms with exterior windows.” Now lines 1007-1010.

      l. 921: I cannot parse this sentence. Were the offspring isolated as virgins?

      No, the logistics of collecting virgins would have been prohibitive, and it did not seem essential for our experiment. Hopefully the edits to this section are clearer, now lines 978ff.

    1. 平台还可以针对特定人群进行定制,例如针对印度低收入盲人的社交媒体平台 [ b6 ]。 此外,一些网站主要用于其他目的,但也有社交媒体组件,例如具有用户评论和客户问答的亚马逊在线商店,或具有评论部分的新闻网站。

      In order to help low-income blind people in India, a special social networking platform can be designed with the following key features:

      1. Voice-activated: users can easily listen to messages, post and chat by speaking instead of clicking.
      2. Traffic Saving: the platform is designed to be simple, consumes less traffic and can be used on regular mobile phones.
      3. Help each other: Blind people can make friends and chat through the platform, as well as learn new skills and find jobs.
      4. Support more people: Collaborate with organisations of the blind, share their stories and let the society support them more.

      The platform is simple and practical, making it easier for blind people to connect to the world and find new opportunities!

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      We appreciate the positive assessment and agree that the experimental data offer valuable insights into HBV capsid assembly inhibition. Based on the reviewers' suggestions, we have clarified the cryo-EM data and added structural and mechanistic details throughout the manuscript, which we believe significantly enhance its overall clarity and impact. The manuscript now better reflects a promising strategy to interfere with the HBV life cycle. We have carefully addressed all comments to improve both the clarity and quality of the manuscript.

      Response to Public Reviews

      We greatly appreciate the insightful comments and suggestions from the reviewers. Below, we provide responses to the points raised in the public reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this paper, the authors present an interesting strategy to interfere with the HBV life cycle: the preparation of geranyl and peptides' dimers that could impede the correct assembly of hepatitis B core protein HBc into viable capsids. These dimers are of different nature, depending on the HBc site the authors plan to target. A preliminary study with geranyl dimers (targeting a hydrophobic site of HBc) was first investigated. The second series deals with peptide-PEG linker-peptide dimers, targeting the tips of HBc dimer spikes.

      Strengths:

      This work is very well conducted, combining ITC experiments (for determination of dimers' KD), cellular effects (thanks to the grafting of previously developed dimers with polyarginine-based cell penetrating peptide) HBV infected HEK293 cells and Cryo-EM studies.

      The findings of these research teams unambiguously demonstrated the interest of such dimeric structures in impeding the correct HBV life cycle and thus, could bring solutions in the control of its development. Ultimately, a new class of HBV Capside Assembly Modulators could arise from this study.

      There is no doubt that this work could bring very interesting information for people working on VHB.

      Weaknesses:

      Some minor corrections must be made, especially for a more precise description of the strategy and the chemical structure of the designed new VHB capsid assembly modulators.

      We are grateful for the positive feedback on the experimental design, the combination of ITC, cellular effects, and Cryo-EM studies, and the potential for developing new classes of HBV Capsid Assembly Modulators (CAMs). In the revised version we have clarified the design rationale for the choice of the PEG linker length in the Supplementary Information, linking it to the structural measurements of the capsid. Chemical structures and detailed molecular formulas were added and terms have been corrected. A scrambled dimeric peptide served as a negative control, which showed no binding, confirming the specificity of our designed peptide and ruling out non-specific interactions from other elements of the molecules such as the linkers. Finally, we have revised the nomenclature for the geranyl dimers to better reflect the chemical structure. All figures, including Figure 3, have been updated to high-resolution. All mentioned typos have been corrected. Consultation dates have been added to the website references. HPLC terminology was corrected.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Vladimir Khayenko et al. discovered two novel binding pockets on HBc with in vitro binding and electron microscopy experiments. While the geranyl dimer targeting a central hydrophobic pocket displayed a micromolar affinity, the P1-dimer binding to the spike tip of HBc has a nanomolar affinity. In the turbidity assay and at the cellular level, an HBc aggregation from peptide crosslinking was demonstrated.

      Strengths:

      The study identifies two previously unexplored binding pockets on HBc capsids and develops novel binders targeting these sites with promising affinities.

      Weaknesses:

      While the in vitro and cellular HBc aggregation effects are demonstrated, the antiviral potential against HBV infection is not directly evaluated in this study.

      Thank you for recognizing the innovative approach of our work and the potential for developing novel antivirals targeting HBc. We have now included additional discussion on potential future experiments aimed at evaluating the compounds' effects on cellular physiology and viral infectivity.

      Reviewer #3 (public Review):

      Summary:

      HBV is a continuing public health problem and new therapeutics would be of great value. Khayenko et al examine two sites in the HBc dimer as possible targets for new therapeutics. Older drugs that target HBc bind at a pocket between two HBc dimers. In this study Khayenko et al examine sites located in the four helix bundle at the dimer interface.

      The first site is a pocket first identified as a triton100 binding site. The authors suggest it might bind terpenes and use geraniol as an example. They also test a decyl maltose detergent and a geraniol dimer intended for bivalent binding. The KDs were all in the 100µM range. Cryo-EM shows that geraniol binds the targeted site.

      The second site is at the tip of the spike. Peptides based on a 1995 study (reference 43) were investigated. The authors test a core peptide, two longer peptides, and a dimer of the longest peptide. A deep scan of the longest monomer sequence shows the importance of a core amino acid sequence. The dimeric peptide (P1-dimer) binds almost 100 fold better than the monomer parent (P1). Cryo-EM structures confirm the binding site. The dimeric peptide caused HBc capsid aggregation When HBc expressing cells were treated with active peptide attached to a cell penetrating peptide, the peptide caused aggregation of HBc antigen mirroring experiments with purified proteins.

      Strengths:

      The two sites have not been well investigated. This paper marks a start. The small collection of substrates investigated led to discovery of a dimeric peptide that leads to capsid aggregation, presumably by non-covalent crosslinking. The structures determined could be very useful for future investigations.

      Weaknesses:

      In this draft, the rational for targets for the triton x100 site is not well laid out. The target molecules bind with KDs weaker that 50µM. The way the structural results are displayed, one cannot be sure of the important features of binding site with respect to the the substrate. The peptide site and substrates are better developed, but structural and mechanistic details need to be described in greater detail.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s positive comments on identifying and targeting previously unexplored sites on HBc, and the potential utility of our dimeric peptides in future studies. We have revised the Results section to better explain the rationale behind targeting the hydrophobic binding site. Additionally, the structures have been revised for clearer presentation, and we now emphasize the key features of the binding site and the role of substrate specificity.

      Recommendations For The Authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      For clarity, the chemical structure of SLLGRM peptide, geraniol and HAP molecules must be indicated, preferably in Fig. 1 (at least in the Supplementary Information section).

      We have now included the chemical structures of the SLLGRM peptide, geraniol, and HAP molecules for clarity in Figure 1 and in the main manuscript to ensure they are easily accessible for reference and to provide further detail and context.

      In the same idea, in Fig. 1 (and in the text): The molecular formula of heteroaryldihydropyrimidine HAP must be clearly indicated, as the nature of the heteroatom (S, O, N?) in this "heteroaryl" derivative is not indicated.

      The full molecular formula of HAP (((2S)-1-[[(4R)-4-(2-chloranyl-4-fluoranyl-phenyl)-5-methoxycarbonyl-2-(1,3-thiazol-2-yl)-1,4-dihydropyrimidin-6-yl]methyl]-4,4-bis(fluoranyl)-pyrrolidine-2-carboxylic acid), is now included the figure legend.

      with a polyethylene glycol (PEG) linker that could bridge the distance of 38 Å between the two opposing hydrophobic pockets": what is the rationale of the design of this linker? Authors must explain briefly why/how they have chosen this linker length and nature (please indicate a reference for the appropriate choice of PEG linker). Same remarks for dimers targeting the capsid spike tips, having 50 angstroms PEG linkers. So, the choice of the linker length must be clearly explained and not be only mentioned in the sentence of the discussion part "Using our structural knowledge of the capsid, particularly the distances between the spikes.

      We have now better clarified the rationale for the design of the PEG linker length. The linker lengths were specifically chosen based on structural knowledge of the capsid, particularly the measured distances between the spike tips (60 Å) and the hydrophobic pockets (40 Å). In the Supplementary Information (Supplementary Figure 1), we now clearly explain how these measurements guided the choice of PEG linker length, allowing for optimal bridging and interaction between the binding sites. This supplementary figure now explicitly connects the design rationale to the specific structural features of the capsid.

      I do not agree with the authors when they claim a "nanomolar affinity of 312 nM". To me, a nanomolar affinity would require several of few tens of nanoM (but not three hundreds) ... So, please correct with "sub-micromolar affinity of 312 nM" and all the other parts of the manuscript (title and caption of Figure 3..., "the peptide dimer (P1dC) with nanomolar affinity" "nanomolar levels"...).

      We thank the Rev#1 for pointing this out. Since the term "nanomolar affinity" can indeed be interpreted as referring to the lower end of the nanomolar range, rather than values close to 300 nM we have revised the manuscript to refer to the "sub-micromolar affinity" where applicable. This change has been made throughout the manuscript, including the subtitles and figure captions, and the text.

      The drug design strategy was to combine two peptides showing low affinity, attached by a PEG linker with an appropriate length and appears obvious to me. But a control experiment is anyway missing: the peptide-PEG linker derivative (not the dimer peptide-PEG linker-peptide...) should have been evaluated for an unambiguous proof of concept of these dimeric peptides. To my opinion, for the publication of this work, these experiments should be brought (eg, when describing the affinities of SLLGR dimers). I agree that Cryo-EM experiments bring evidences of the dimer binding but the affinity values for (peptide-PEG linker) derivatives would bring an additional proof (as the PEG flexible linkers was not resolved by Cryo-EM).

      Thank you for your thoughtful comment regarding the use of a monovalent control for the peptide-PEG linker. A scrambled dimeric peptide serves as a negative control. In ITC it showed no binding at all. Thereby ruling out possibly unspecific interactions mediated by the introduced PEG linker or handle itself.

      Given the complete lack of binding with the scrambled dimeric peptide, we believe this thoroughly excludes the need for an additional monovalent control, as it provides strong evidence that the observed binding is driven specifically by the designed peptide sequence and not by the linker or other structural components. We have now made this clarification more explicit in the revised manuscript to avoid any ambiguity. We hope this addresses your concern, and we appreciate your suggestion to further strengthen the rigor of the work. Despite its identical charge, molecular weight and atom composition the scrambled control did not cause HBc aggregation in living cells, thus indicating sequence specific action of the aggregating dimer.

      The nomenclature of the dimers must be modified because there is no logic between the name "long dimer" and the chemical structure. Particularly, the number of ethylene glycol motifs must be indicated: authors have to find an appropriate nomenclature indicating both the linker length and nature (small molecule or peptide) of the bivalent parts (and hence, do not mention anymore "short geranyl dimer" "long geranyl dimer").

      Thank you for your valuable suggestion regarding the nomenclature of the dimers. We agree that the terms "short geranyl dimer" and "long geranyl dimer" do not fully reflect the chemical structure of the molecules. In response, we have revised the nomenclature to provide a clearer indication of both the linker length and the nature of the bivalent parts. We now refer to the dimers as (Geranyl)<sub>2</sub>-Lys for the dimer with two geranyl groups attached to lysine and (Geranyl-PEG3)<sub>2</sub>-Lys for the dimer with a PEG3 linker (three ethylene glycol units) between the lysine amine and the geranyl groups. These revised names more accurately describe the structural differences and should avoid any ambiguity.

      Lines 198-199: "Among these, the dimerized P1 exhibited a higher 198 occupation of the binding site, as illustrated in Supplementary Figure 9." But in Supp. Fig. 9, dimer P1dC (10) is described. As the text above is describing P1-dimer (9), the Supp. Fig. 9 must be provided, if available. If not, please modify this conclusion accordingly. In the text, when mentioning dimerized P1 peptide, authors must indicate with which compound it deals: (9) or (10)?

      Thank you for your careful reading of the manuscript and for pointing out the discrepancy. In Supplementary Figure 9, the dimer described is P1dC, not P1d. The text has been revised to clarify this. We appreciate your attention to detail.

      Please note that the graphic quality of Figure 3 is bad as it results in pixelized drawings (especially for the chemical structures).

      Thank you for your feedback regarding the quality of Figure 3. We have now updated all figures, including Figure 3, to high-resolution PNG format with 300-500 dpi to ensure optimal graphic quality. This should resolve the pixelization issue, particularly for the chemical structures.

      Minor typos: "clinical studies, a third are CAMs.[6]" "to the spike base hydrophobic pocket" "geraniol affinity to the central hydrophobic pocket, we designed"

      We have corrected the punctuation in the mentioned sentences and appreciate your careful review of the manuscript.

      Concerning the citation of a website (references 5 and 6), I guess that the consultation date should be mentioned.

      We have now updated the references accordingly, including the consultation dates.

      In the Materials and Methods part, Peptide synthesis paragraph, authors must write "semi-preparative HPLC.

      It’s now corrected to "semi-preparative HPLC".

      In the supplementary information file, 1H and 13C NMR spectrum for the small molecule "Short Geranyl Dimer (SGD)" should be provided.

      The purity and identity of this Geranyl derivate were confirmed through UV detection in LC-MS and supported by the mass spectra, which provide robust and clear evidence of the compound's structure and well-accepted method for confirming the structure in this context. While we understand the value of NMR in structural analysis, we believe that additional analytical evidence is not critical for this study.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Overall, this study presents an innovative approach to target the HBV core protein and paves the way for developing new classes of antivirals with a distinct mechanism of action. The findings expand the current knowledge of druggable sites on HBc capsids and provide promising lead compounds. Future studies exploring the antiviral effects and optimizing the binders for therapeutic applications would be valuable next steps.

      We sincerely thank the reviewer for the positive assessment of our work and for highlighting its innovative approach to targeting the HBV core protein. We appreciate your recognition of the study's potential in paving the way for developing new classes of antivirals with distinct mechanisms of action. Below, we provide responses to each of the points raised.

      The significance of the central hydrophobic pocket as a target may require additional experiments for validation. Currently, the substrate binding activity is relatively low and appears to have a non-significant impact on HBc.

      We agree that the central hydrophobic pocket exhibits relatively weak binding affinity with the ligands tested in this study. However, we have provided additional structural evidence and affinity data to support its relevance as a druggable site. In recognition of the weak affinity of these small molecules, we expanded our focus to include peptide-based binders, which yielded higher affinities, particularly when dimerized.

      It might be more effective to present Figure 1B after summarizing all the results.

      We understand the reviewer’s suggestion. However, we decided to highlight and summarize the major findings early in the manuscript. We included Figure 1B at the beginning to allow readers to quickly grasp the core concepts and outcomes of our study.

      The labels for P1/P2 are presented in Figure 1A, yet their definitions are not provided until the second part of the Results section.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s observation. While see a benefit of showing three trackable sites on HBV early and as an overview but we also agree that the early presentation of P1/P2 could lead to some confusion. To resolve this, we have revised the figure to introduce only on the minimal peptide to avoid any ambiguity. The full dimer sequences and names are introduced later.

      Further investigation of the cytotoxic potential of peptide-induced HBc aggregation is necessary.

      Investigating the cytotoxicity together with infectivity is an important future direction but outside the scope of this study. We now elaborate on this point in the discussion.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Two sites in the dimer interface are shown to bind ligands. It is not shown that filling these regions will change infection. The exhaustive studies by Bruss showed point mutations directly alter infection and would be of value to discuss.

      We thank Rev#3 for this very helpful comment. We now highlight how point mutations in these regions were shown to affect HBV infectivity. Thereby providing a link between our findings and how ligand binding might influence the viral life cycle.

      It is not shown whether the two sites interact. Molecular dynamics by Hadden or Gumbart may be informative. The failure to look for a connection between these sites is an oversight.

      We thank Rev#3 for the insightful suggestion to explore potential interactions between the two binding sites. We acknowledge that molecular dynamics (MD) simulations, such as those performed by Gumbart et al. and Hadden et al., could indeed provide valuable insights into the structural dynamics and potential cooperativity between these sites. Indeed, molecular dynamics of the HBV capsid by Perilla and Hadden has demonstrated significant flexibility in the capsid spikes and their interactions with neighboring subunits suggesting that the dynamics of binding sites could influence ligand accessibility and potential crosstalk.

      We believe that our own previous structural studies together with data in this work provide substantial experimental evidence on this topic. In Makbul et al. 2021a (doi.org/10.3390/microorganisms9050956) we observed that peptide binding (particularly P2) did not stabilize the spikes; instead, the upper part of the spikes exhibited considerable wobbling. This variability mirrored the conformational diversity reported in MD simulations. Using local classification, we noted that the variability in the spike's upper region was greater when P2 was bound than in its absence. Additionally, in Makbul et al. 2021b (doi.org/10.3390/v13112115), we showed that peptide binding had little effect on the hydrophobic pocket beneath the mobile spike region, located in the more rigid part of the capsid. While we observed F97 in the D-monomer adopting two alternate rotamer orientations upon P2 binding this was not exclusive to P2, as similar changes were noted in the L60V mutant even without bound peptide.

      We have updated the manuscript to briefly discuss this crosstalk, that provides additional context to our findings. Interestingly, only TX100—but not geraniol—completely flipped F97 into an alternate orientation, forming a new π-π stacking interaction with the mobile region of the spike. This finding suggests that interactions within the hydrophobic pocket are transmitted based on ligand specific interactions to the tips of the spikes. Thus, supporting and refining the concept of a crosstalk between binding sites, primarily initiated from the hydrophobic pocket in a ligand specific fashion.

      The logic for proposing a terpene ligand is strained. Comparisons are made to HBs and the HDV delta antigen. However, HBs is myristoylated not farnesylated and delta antigen binds HBs not HBc.

      We have revised the text to clarify the rationale for testing terpenes as ligands, focusing instead on the specific properties of the hydrophobic pocket targeted by geraniol.

      The authors suggest larger terpenes as binding agents, but there does not appear to be room for a longer molecule in the binding site. The authors do not discuss whether a longer molecule could be modeled in the site based on their density.

      We appreciate this observation and agree that the potential for larger terpenes to bind this site is not obvious from the structural data presented in this work. We have now included a more detailed visualization (Fig2D) and discussion of the hydrophobic binding pocket, based on the density observed in the presented geraniol structure and the previous triton structure and discuss its implications of the binding of larger hydrophobic molecules into the site (Fig 2D).

      The authors note that the structure could explain molecular details of this site, but these are not discussed. A more complete analysis of the geraniol protein is necessary, including an estimate of the resolution of that density.

      We agree that a more complete analysis of the hydrophobic binding site was warranted. We have now expanded the discussion of the structural details of this binding site based on the geraniol-bound structure, the density and occupancy accounted by this ligand. These additional details (Fig 2C,D and Fig 5) should provide a clearer understanding of the binding interactions observed.

      The dimeric geraniol is marginally better binding than the monomer, two-fold, but this could be due to doubling the number of geraniols per ligand or due to an undefined interaction of the extended molecule with the surface of the capsid. A geraniol linker should be tested.

      The modest improvement in binding may indeed only reflect the doubled number of geraniols rather than linker-mediated avidity effects. Interaction of the linker with the capsid surface is ruled-out by the scrambled control that included the same linkers but did not show any capacity to bind.

      Is the enhanced binding of dimer due to bivalent binding of dimer to one capsid? Is it a chance interaction of the linker with the surface of HBc, which is easily tested? Is it an avidity effect due to aggregation of capsids?

      Thank you for this insightful question. Our data suggest that the enhanced binding is due to bivalent interactions. To address the possibility of non-specific interactions from either the handle or the linker, we included a scrambled dimeric peptide as a negative control, which showed no binding. This rules out non-specific interactions from the linker or handle. Given this, we believe an additional monovalent control is unnecessary, as the scrambled control confirms that the binding is driven by the geraniol and peptide warheads alone. We have clarified this in the revised manuscript and appreciate your suggestion to strengthen the study.

      The experimental analysis of point mutation of P1 is not analyzed beyond stating that it shows the importance of the core peptide sequence. Is there rationale for the effect of R3 to E and K10 to E mutation?

      We appreciate the reviewer's curiosity and request for a more detailed discussion of the P1 deep mutational scan data and its implications. The observed low mutation tolerance of the core peptide sequence SLLGRM regarding HBc binding is highly consistent with our prior structural data and binding studies in solutions (https://doi.org/10.3390/microorganisms9050956) as well as the results from the original phage library screening (M. R. Dyson, K. Murray, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 1995, 92, 2194–2198), and the binding data presented here. Notably, the data set does not suggest that additional binding interfaces contribute to the aggregation seen with N-terminal elongated P1 and P2 versus the non-aggregating shorter SLLGRM. While the positional scan largely aligns with previous phage binding hierarchy and quantified ligands, we were previously prompted by surprising affinity gains for positive to negative amino exchanges in related peptides in same way as Rev#3: Specifically, “SLLGEM” has been predicted previously and here to show enhanced affinity over “SLLGRM”. Quantification in solution, however, could not confirm this enhanced HBV binding affinity (Makbul et al. 2021 Microorganisms), which could not be recapitulated by in solution quantification. In the revised version of the manuscript we now highlight the possible limited predictive power of this assay for positions where positively charged residues are exchanged by negatively charged residues (Figure legend of Fig 3D).

      The fluctuations in Figure 3B could be largely magnification of noise due to changing the y-axis. The fluctuations can be characterized as standard variation, excluding the injections, to allow a quantitative judgment.

      Isothermal titration calorimetry heat fluctuations without injections are now shown in the supplementary information scaled to the same y-axis (Supplementary Figure 3D). 

      Molecular graphics throughout are too small and poorly labeled.

      We have revised the molecular graphics throughout the manuscript to increase their size and improve labeling for clarity. All figures are now provided in 500dpi.

      In Figure 2, compounds 1 and 2 are pyrophosphates. The label in the figure should be corrected.

      Thank you for pointing this out. These compounds were removed for clarity.

      In the introduction, the phrase "discontinuation frequently leads to relapse" should be changed to something less ambiguous.

      Thank you for highlighting this point regarding the phrasing in the introduction. We have revised the statement to more accurately reflect the clinical situation by specifying that stopping treatment often results in viral rebound and disease recurrence in many patients. This adjustment clarifies the intended meaning and addresses the ambiguity you identified. We hope this revision better aligns with the clinical context of HBV management and improves the overall clarity of the manuscript.

      Define "functional cure" in the introduction.

      Thank you for your suggestion to clarify the term 'functional cure.' We have revised the manuscript and instead of ”functional cure” we mention the goal of sustained viral suppression without detectable HBV DNA and loss of hepatitis B surface antigen (HBsAg) without the need for continuous therapy. This should provide greater clarity for readers and improve the overall comprehensibility of the introduction.

      The sentence beginning line 92 is not clear unless one has already read the paper. Figure 1 is not well described.

      Thank you for your valuable feedback regarding the clarity of this sentence and the legend of Figure 1. We have revised the text and legend to provide more context and improve the flow for readers who are unfamiliar with the specifics of the study. The revised version now clearly explains the targeted binding sites and the purpose of the bivalent binders at the beginning of the results section.

      In line 235 the meaning is not clear. What is in excess? Is there free CPP in solution? Is it the charge on the CPP?

      We have clarified the passage as requested.

      When describing peptide-induced aggregation, Figures 5 and 6, figure 1B is never referred to. Figure 1B would work better as part of Figure 6.

      We understand the reviewer’s suggestion. However, we decided to highlight and summarize the major findings and the underlying hypothesis early in the manuscript. We included Figure 1B at the beginning to allow readers to quickly grasp a core concept and outcome of our study.

      We now however refer to Figure 1B and together with all the other changes hope that we have improved the clarity and quality of the manuscript.

      We appreciate your constructive feedback and the opportunity to further refine the work.

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, "PAbFold: Linear Antibody Epitope Prediction using AlphaFold2", the authors generate a python wrapper for the screening of antibody-peptide interactions using AlphaFold, and test the performance of AlphaFold on 3 antibody-peptide complexes. In line with previous observations regarding the ability of AlphaFold to predict antibody structures and antigen binding, the results are mixed. While the authors are able to use AlphaFold to identify and experimentally validate a previously characterized broad binding epitope with impressive precision, they are unable to consistently identify the proper binding registers for their control [Myc-tag, HA-tag] peptides. Further, it appears that the reproducibility and generality of these results are low, with new versions of AlphaFold negatively impacting the predictive power. However, if this reproducibility issue is solved, and the test set is greatly increased, this manuscript could contribute strongly towards our ability to predict antibody-antigen interactions.

      Strengths:

      Due to the high significance, but difficulty, of the prediction of antibody-antigen interactions, any attempts to break down these predictions into more tractable problems should be applauded. The authors' approach of focusing on linear epitopes (peptides) is clever, reducing some of the complexities inherent to antibody binding. Further, the ability of AlphaFold to narrow down a previously broadly identified experimental epitope is impressive. The subsequent experimental validation of this more precisely identified epitope makes for a nice data point in the assessment of AlphaFold's ability to predict antibody-antigen interactions.

      Weaknesses:

      Without a larger set of test antibody-peptide interactions, it is unclear whether or not AlphaFold can precisely identify the binding register of a given antibody to a given peptide antigen. Even within the small test set of 3 antibody-peptide complexes, performance is variable and depends upon the scFv scaffold used for unclear reasons. Lastly, the apparent poor reproducibility is concerning, and it is not clear why the results should rely so strongly on which multi-sequence alignment (MSA) version is used, when neither the antibody CDR loops nor the peptide are likely to strongly rely on these MSAs for contact prediction.

      Major Point-by-Point Comments:

      (1) The central concern for this manuscript is the apparent lack of reproducibility. The way the authors discuss the issue (lines 523-554) it sounds as though they are unable to reproduce their initial results (which are reported in the main text), even when previous versions of AlphaFold2 are used. If this is the case, it does not seem that AlphaFold can be a reliable tool for predicting antibody-peptide interactions.

      (2) Aside from the fundamental issue of reproducibility, the number of validating tests is insufficient to assess the ability of AlphaFold to predict antibody-peptide interactions. Given the authors' use of AlphaFold to identify antibody binding to a linear epitope within a whole protein (in the mBG17:SARS-Cov-2 nucleocapsid protein interaction), they should expand their test set well beyond Myc- and HA-tags using antibody-antigen interactions from existing large structural databases.

      (3) As discussed in lines 358-361, the authors are unsure if their primary control tests (antibody binding to Myc-tag and HA-tag) are included in the training data. Lines 324-330 suggest that even if the peptides are not included in the AlphaFold training data because they contain fewer than 10 amino acids, the antibody structures may very well be included, with an obvious "void" that would be best filled by a peptide. The authors must confirm that their tests are not included in the AlphaFold training data, or re-run the analysis with these templates removed.

      (4) The ability of AlphaFold to refine the linear epitope of antibody mBG17 is quite impressive and robust to the reproducibility issues the authors have run into. However, Figure 4 seems to suggest that the target epitope adopts an alpha-helical structure. This may be why the score is so high and the prediction is so robust. It would be very useful to see along with the pLDDT by residue plots a structure prediction by residue plot. This would help to see if the high confidence pLDDT is coming more from confidence in the docking of the peptide or confidence in the structure of the peptide.

      (5) Related to the above comment, pLDDT is insufficient as a metric for assessing antibody-antigen interactions. There is a chance (as is nicely shown in Figure S3C) that AlphaFold can be confident and wrong. Here we see two orange-yellow dots (fairly high confidence) that place the peptide COM far from the true binding region. While running the recommended larger validation above, the authors should also include a peptide RMSD or COM distance metric, to show that the peptide identity is confident, and the peptide placement is roughly correct. These predictions are not nearly as valuable if AlphaFold is getting the right answer for the wrong reasons (i.e. high pLDDT but peptide binding to a non-CDR loop region). Eventual users of the software will likely want to make point mutations or perturb the binding regions identified by the structural predictions (as the authors do in Figure 4).

      Comments on revisions:

      I have read the author's responses and the revised manuscript. The authors did not sufficiently address my comments, nor the fundamental issue with the manuscript.

      By the authors' own admission, many of the results presented in the current version of the manuscript cannot be reproduced without relying on locally saved MSAs. In other words, there is almost no evidence presented that this pipeline will predict antibody-antigen interactions using currently publicly available software. This manuscript is reduced to essentially a case study (N=1) in how one might go about making such predictions coupled with pretty good experimental evidence backing up this singular prediction.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Rigor in the design and application of scientific experiments is an ongoing concern in preclinical (animal) research. Because findings from these studies are often used in the design of clinical (human) studies, it is critical that the results of the preclinical studies are valid and replicable. However, several recent peer-reviewed published papers have shown that some of the research results in cardiovascular research literature may not be valid because their use of key design elements is unacceptably low. The current study is designed to expand on and replicate previous preclinical studies in nine leading scientific research journals. Cardiovascular research articles that were used for examination were obtained from a PubMed Search. These articles were carefully examined for four elements that are important in the design of animal experiments: use of both biological sexes, randomization of subjects for experimental groups, blinding of the experimenters, and estimating the proper size of samples for the experimental groups. The findings of the current study indicate that the use of these four design elements in the reported research in preclinical research is unacceptably low. Therefore, the results replicate previous studies and demonstrate once again that there is an ongoing problem in the experimental design of preclinical cardiovascular research.

      Strengths:

      This study selected four important design elements for study. The descriptions in the text and figures of this paper clearly demonstrate that the rate of use of all four design elements in the examined research articles was unacceptably low. The current study is important because it replicates previous studies and continues to call attention once again to serious problems in the design of preclinical studies, and the problem does not seem to lessen over time.

      Weaknesses:

      The current study uses both descriptive and inferential statistics extensively in describing the results. The descriptive statistics are clear and strong, demonstrating the main point of the study, that the use of these design elements is quite low, which may invalidate many of the reported studies. In addition, inferential statistical tests were used to compare the use of the four design elements against each other and to compare some of the journals. The use of inferential statistical tests appears weak because the wrong tests may have been used in some cases. However, the overall descriptive findings are very strong and make the major points of the study.

      We sincerely appreciate the reviewer’s comments and detailed feedback and their recognition of the importance of this work in replicating previous studies and calling attention to the problems in preclinical study design. In response to the reviewer’s suggestions, we have recalculated our inferential statistics. In place of our previous inferential statistics, we have used an alternative correction calculation for p-values (Holm-Bonferroni corrections) and used median-based linear model analyses and nonparametric Kruskal-Wallis tests that are more appropriate for analyzing this dataset. Our overall trends in results remain the same.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary

      This study replicates a 2017 study in which the authors reviewed papers for four key elements of rigor: inclusion of sex as a biological variable, randomization of subjects, blinding outcomes, and pre-specified sample size estimation. Here they screened 298 published papers for the four elements. Over a 10 year period, rigor (defined as including any of the 4 elements) failed to improve. They could not detect any differences across the journals they surveyed, nor across models. They focused primarily on cardiovascular disease, which both helps focus the research but limits the potential generalizability to a broader range of scientific investigation. There is no reason, however, to believe rigor is any better or worse in other fields, and hence this study is a good 'snapshot' of the progress of improving rigor over time.

      Strengths

      The authors randomly selected papers from leading journals, e.g., PNAS). Each paper was reviewed by 2 investigators. They pulled papers over a 10-year period, 2011 to 2021, and have a good sample of time over which to look for changes. The analysis followed generally accepted guidelines for a structured review.

      Weaknesses

      The authors did not use the exact same journals as they did in the 2017 study. This makes comparing the results complicated. Also, they pulled papers from 2011 to 2021, and hence cannot assess the impact of their own prior paper.

      The authors write "the proportion of studies including animals of both biological sexes generally increased between 2011 and 2021, though not significantly (R2= 0.0762, F(1,9)= 0.742, p= 0.411 (corrected p=8.2". This statement is not rigorous because the regression result is not statistically significant. Their data supports neither a claim of an increase nor a decrease over time. A similar problem repeats several times in the remainder of their results presentation.

      I think the Introduction and the Discussion are somewhat repetitive and the wording could be reduced.

      Impact and Context

      Lack of reproducibility remains an enormous problem in science, plaguing both basic and translational investigations. With the increased scrutiny on rigor, and requirements at NIH and other funding agencies for more rigor and transparency, one would expect to find increasing rigor, as evidenced by authors including more study design elements (SDEs) that are recommended. This review found no such change, and this is quite disheartening. The data implies that journals-editors and reviewers-will have to increase their scrutiny and standards applied to preclinical and basic studies. This work could also serve as a call to action to investigators outside of cardiovascular science to reflect on their own experiences and when planning future projects.

      We sincerely appreciate the reviewer’s insights and comments and recognition of our work contributing to the growing body of evidence on the lack of rigor in preclinical cardiovascular research study design. Regarding the weaknesses the reviewer noted; the referenced 2017 publication details a study by Ramirez et al, and was not conducted by our group. Our study aimed to expand upon their findings by using a more recent timeframe and an alternative list of highly respected cardiovascular research journals. We have now better clarified this distinction in the manuscript. We have also addressed our phrasing regarding the lack of statistical significance in the increase of the proportion of studies including animals of both sexes from 2011-2021.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Many of the methods in this study were strong or adequate. Although the descriptive statistics appear solid, there are significant problems that need to be addressed in the selection and use of inferential statistics.

      (1) One of the design elements that was studied was sample size estimation. This is usually done by a power analysis. The authors should consider what group size for the examined journals is adequate for their statistics to be valid. Or they could report the power of their studies to achieve a given meaningful difference.

      We thank the reviewer for this excellent observation. We unfortunately failed to conduct an a priori power analysis. Previous research (Gupta, et al. 2016) suggests that post-hoc power calculations should not be carried out after the study has been conducted. We acknowledge the importance of establishing a sufficient sample size to draw sound conclusions based on an adequate effect size, and we regret that we did not carry out the appropriate estimations. We are very appreciative of the reviewer’s suggestions and aim to implement such an appropriate study design element in future studies.

      Gupta KK, Attri JP, Singh A, Kaur H, Kaur G. Basic concepts for sample size calculation: Critical step for any clinical trials!. Saudi J Anaesth. 2016;10(3):328-331. doi:10.4103/1658-354X.174918

      (2) A Bonferroni correction was used extensively. Because of its use, the corrected p values often appear much too high. The Bonferroni test becomes much too conservative for more than 3 or 4 tests. I suggest using a different test for multiple comparisons.

      We thank the reviewer for their insightful suggestion. We have updated all p-values to reflect a Holm-Bonferroni correction instead. All p-values have been corrected and updated.

      (3) The use of the chi-square test for categorical data is appropriate. However, the t-test and multiple regression tests are designed for continuous variables. Here, it appears that they were used for the nominal variables (Table 1). For these nominal data, other nonparametric tests should be used.

      We thank the reviewer for this valuable insight. We have updated our statistical analysis methods and now use nonparametric Kruskal-Wallis tests to analyze differences in SDE reporting across journals, instead of chi-square test. Our reported p-values have been adjusted accordingly.

      (4) It is not clear exactly when each test is used. The stats section in Methods should better delineate when each test is used. In addition, it would be helpful to include the test used in the figure legends.

      We thank the reviewer for bringing up this important point. We have now updated the methods section to better delineate which tests were used, and also included the specific tests in the figure legends.

      (5) You will need to rewrite some sections of the text to reflect the changes due to changing your use of statistics.

      We have rewritten the sections of the text to reflect the changes in our use of statistics.

      Here are a few comments on the presentation.

      (1) Some of the figure legends are almost impossible to read. They are too congested.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. We have edited the figure legends to make them more readable. We will also attach a pdf with the graphs to allow for easier formatting.

      (2) Also, is it possible to drop some of the panels in Figure 1?

      The panels in figure 1 have been rearranged to make them more readable. We believe that each panel provides valuable visual summaries of our data, that will aid readers in understanding our results.

      (3) It is not mandatory that values of y-axis on the graphs go up 100% (Figs 2 and 3). Using a maximum value of 100% clumps the lines visually. I suggest a max value on the y-axis of the graph of 50% or 60%. That will spread the lines better visually so differences can better be seen.

      We thank the reviewer for considering the experience of our paper’s readers. The y-axes of Figures 2 and 3 have been truncated to 50%. The trend lines in each Figure now appear more separated and differences can better be seen.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The authors did not use the exact same journals as they did in the 2017 study. This makes comparing the results complicated. Also, they pulled papers from 2011 to 2021, and hence cannot assess the impact of their own prior paper.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s concern in maintaining consistency with the paper published by Ramirez, et al. in 2017. To clarify, our efforts focused on providing a replication study that expanded upon the original Ramirez publication - which we have no affiliation with. For our study, we used different academic journals than those used by Ramirez, et al, and also a different time-frame. We have updated the language in the manuscript to better-clarify the purpose and parameters of our study relative to the previous, unaffiliated, study.

      The authors write "the proportion of studies including animals of both biological sexes generally increased between 2011 and 2021, though not significantly (R2= 0.0762, F(1,9)= 0.742, p= 0.411 (corrected p=8.2". This statement is not rigorous because the regression result is not statistically significant. Their data supports neither a claim of an increase nor a decrease over time. A similar problem repeats several times in the remainder of their results presentation.

      Thank you for bringing this information to our attention. We agree with the concern regarding the statement, “the proportion of studies including animals of both biological sexes generally increased between 2011 and 2021, though not significantly (R2= 0.0762, F(1,9)= 0.742, p= 0.411 (corrected p=8.2.” We have rephrased the statement. Our updated Holm-Bonferroni corrected p-value is now noted in this more appropriately worded description of our results. Lastly, we have addressed the wording and redundancy seen in both the introduction and discussion and have made both more concise.

      I think the Introduction and the Discussion are somewhat repetitive and the wording could be reduced.

      We thank the reviewer for bringing this to our attention. We have addressed the redundancy across the Introduction and the Discussion. We have also altered the wording to reflect a more concise explanation of our study.

      The 'trends' are not statistically significant. A non-significant trend does not exist and no claim of a 'trend' is justified by the data.

      We thank the reviewer for this observation. We have updated the phrasing of ‘trends’ in all areas of the manuscript.

    1. Author response:

      Public Reviews: 

      Reviewer #1 (Public review): 

      Summary: 

      Authors of this article have previously shown the involvement of the transcription factor Zinc finger homeobox-3 (ZFHX3) in the function of the circadian clock and the development/differentiation of the central circadian clock in the suprachiasmatic nucleus (SCN) of the hypothalamus. Here, they show that ZFHX3 plays a critical role in the transcriptional regulation of numerous genes in the SCN. Using inducible knockout mice, they further demonstrate that the deletion Of Zfhx3 induces a phase advance of the circadian clock, both at the molecular and behavioral levels. 

      Strengths: 

      - Inducible deletion of Zfhx3 in adults 

      - Behavioral analysis 

      - Properly designed and analyzed ChIP-Seq and RNA-Seq supporting the conclusion of the behavioral analysis 

      Weaknesses: 

      - Further characterization of the disruption of the activity of the SCN is required. 

      (1) We thank the reviewer for their valuable inputs. Indeed, a comprehensive behavioral assessment of mice of this genotype was executed in Wilcox et al. ;2017 study. In Wilcox et al.; 2017, Figure 4, 6-h phase advance (jetlag) clearly showed faster reentrainment in ZFHX3-KO mice when compared to the controls.

      - The description of the controls needs some clarification. 

      (2) We agree with the reviewer and will modify the text to clearly describe the controls wherever mentioned.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review): 

      Summary: 

      ZFHX3 is a transcription factor expressed in discrete populations of adult SCN and was shown by the authors previously to control circadian behavioral rhythms using either a dominant missense mutation in Zfhx3 or conditional null Zfhx3 mutation using the Ubc-Cre line (Wilcox et al., 2017). In the current manuscript, the authors assess the function of ZFHX3 by using a multi-omics approach including ChIPSeq in wildtype SCNs and RNAseq of SCN tissues from both wildtype and conditional null mice. RNAseq analysis showed a loss of oscillation in Bmal1 and changes in expression levels of other clock output genes. Moreover, a phase advance gene transcriptional profile using the TimeTeller algorithm suggests the presence of a regulatory network that could underlie the observed pattern of advanced activity onset in locomotor behavior in knockout mice. 

      In figure1, the authors identified the ZFHX3 bound sites using ChIPseq and compared the loci with other histone marks that occur at promoters, TSS, enhancers and intergenic regions. And the analysis broadly points to a role for ZFHX3 in transcriptional regulation. The vast majority of nearly 40000 peaks overlapped H3K4me3 and K27ac marks, active promoters which also included genes falling under the GO category circadian rhythms. However, no significant differential ZFHX3 bound peaks were detected between ZT3 and ZT15. In these experiments, it is not clear if and how the different ChIP samples (ZFHX3 and histone PTM ChIPs) were normalized/downsampled for analysis. Moreover, it seems that ZFHX3 binding or recruitment has little to do with whether the promoters are active.

      (3) We thank the reviewer for their valuable comment. Different ChIP samples. (ZFHX3 and histone PTM ChIPs) were treated in the same manner from preprocessing (quality control by FastQC, Trimming, Alignment to mm10 genome and Peak calling) using MACS2 as mentioned in Methods. The data was normalized using bamCoverage tools and bigwig files were generated for visual inspection using USCS Genome Browser. These additional details will be added to Methods. Finally, BEDTools was employed to study overlapping peaks between ZFHX3 and histone PTMs.

      We agree that, alone, the current data does not make any claim for ZFHX3 being crucial for promoter to be active. Our data clearly suggests that a vast majority of ZFHX3 genomic binding in the SCN was observed at active promoters marked by H3K4me3 and H3K27ac and potentially regulating gene transcription. 

      Based on a enrichment of ARNT domains next to K4Me3 and K27ac PTMs, the authors propose a model where the core-clock TFs and ZFHX3 interact. If the authors develop other assays beyond just predictions to test their hypothesis, it would strengthen the argument for role in circadian transcription in the SCN. It would be important in this context to perform a ChIP-seq experiment for ZFHX3 in the knockout animal (described from Figure 2 onwards) to eliminate the possibility of non-specific enrichment of signal from "open chromatin'. Alternatively, a ChIPseq analysis for BMAL1 or CLOCK could also strengthen this argument to identify the sites co-occupied by ZFHX3 and core-clock TFs. 

      (4a) We agree that follow-up experiments such as BMAL1/CLOCK ChIPseq suggested by the reviewer will further confirm the proposed interaction of ZFHX3 with core-clock TFs. However, this is beyond the scope of the current study. 

      (4b) Again, conducting complementary ChIPseq in ZFHX3 knockout mice will strengthen the findings, but conducting TF-ChIPseq in a specific brain tissue such as the SCN (unlike peripheral tissues such as liver) does not only warrant use of multiple animals per sample but is also technically challenging and time-consuming to ensure specificity of the sample. For these reasons, datasets such as ours on the SCN are uncommon. Furthermore, in this particular context, we are certain that, based on current dataset, the ZFHX3 peaks (narrow) we observed were well-defined and met the specified statistical criteria mitigating any risk of signal arising from non-specific enrichment from open-chromatin regions. 

      Next, they compared locomotor activity rhythms in floxed mice with or without tamoxifen treatment. As reported before in Wilcox et al 2017, the loss of ZFHX3 led to a shorter free running period and reduced amplitude and earlier onset of activity. Overall, the behavioral data in Figure 2 and supplementary figure 2 has been reported before and are not novel.

      (5) We recognise that a detailed circadian behavior assessment from adult mice lacking ZFHX3 has been conducted previously by Nolan lab (Wilcox et al; 2017). In the current study, however, we used a separate cohort of mice, to focus on the behavioral advance noted in 24-h LD cycle and generate a more refined assessment. Importantly, these mice were also used for transcriptomic studies as detailed in Figure 3, which we consider to be a positive feature of our experimental design: behavior and molecular analyses were performed on the same animals. 

      Next, the authors performed RNAseq at 4hr intervals on wildtype and knockout animals maintained in light/dark cycles to determine the impact of loss of ZFHX3. Overall transcriptomic analysis indicated changes in gene expression in nearly 36% of expressed genes, with nearly half being upregulated while an equal fraction was downregulated. Pathways affected included mostly neureopeptide neurotransmitter pathways. Surprisingly, there was no correlation between the direction in change in expression and TF binding since nearly all the sites were bound by ZFHX3 and the active histone PTMs. The ChIP-seq experiment for ZFHX3 in the UBC-Cre+Tam mice again could help resolve the real targets of ZFHX3 and the transcriptional state in knockout animals. 

      (6) We agree with the reviewer that most of the differentially expressed genes showed ZFHX3 binding at active promoter sites. That said, the current dataset is in line with recently published ZFHX3-CHIPseq data by Baca et al; 2024 [PMID: 38412861] in human neural stem cells and Hu et al; 2024 [PMID: 38871709] in human prostate cancer cells that clearly suggests ZFHX3 binds at active promoters and act as chromatin remodellers/mediators that modulate gene transcription depending on the accessory TFs assembled at target genes. Therefore, finding no correlation in the direction of change in expression is not striking.  

      To determine the fraction of rhythmic transcripts, Using dryR, the authors categorise the rhythmic transcriptome into modules that include genes that lose rhythmicity in the KO, gain rhythmicity in the KO or remain unaffected or partially affected. The analysis indicates that a large fraction of the rhythmic transcriptome is affected in the KO model. However, among core-clock genes only Bmal1 expression is affected showing a complete loss of rhythm. The authors state a decrease in Clock mRNA expression (line 294) but the panel figure 4A does not show this data. Instead it depicts the loss in Avp expression - {{ misstated in line 321 ( we noted severe loss in 24-h rhythm for crucial SCN neuropeptides such as Avp (Fig. 3a).}} 

      (7a) Indeed, among the core-clock genes rhythmic expression is lost after ZFHX3 knockout only for Bmal1. However, given the mice were rhythmic (as assessed by wheel-running activity) in LD conditions, the observed 24-h gene expression rhythm in the majority of core-clock genes (Pers and Crys)  is consistent with behavior data,  and suggests towards a molecular clock with plausible scenarios as explained at line 439. That said, the unique and well-defined changes (amplitude and phase) observed as demonstrated in Figure 5 highlights a model in which ZFHX3 exerts differential control, for example in case of Per2 noted advance in molecular rhythm (~2-h), but no such change in Cry, presents an opportunity to delineate further the regulation of TTFL genes. 

      (7b) Line 294 states- loss of Bmal1 rhythm and reduction in Clock mRNA . Figure 4a is in support of former. We shall revise the text for clarity. 

      (7c) As rightly pointed out by the reviewer, line 321 is referring to loss of Avp expression and we shall correct the typo by replacing “Figure 3a to 4a”. Thank you.  

      However, core-clock genes such as Pers and Crys show minor or no change in expression patterns while Per2 and Per3 show a ~2hr phase advance. While these could only weakly account for the behavioral phase advance, the authors used TimeTeller to assess circadian phase in wildtype and ZFHX3 deficient mice. This approach clearly indicated that while the clock is not disrupted in the knockout animals, the phase advance can be correctly predicted from a network of gene expression patterns. 

      Strengths: 

      The authors use a multiomic strategy in order to reveal the role of the ZFHX3 transcription factor with a combination of TF and histone PTM ChIPseq, time-resolved RNAseq from wildtype and knockout mice and modeling the transcriptomic data using TimeTeller. The RNAseq experiments are nicely controlled and the analysis of the data indicates a clear impact on gene-expression levels in the knockout mice and the presence of a regulatory network that could underlie the advanced activity onset behavior. 

      Weaknesses: 

      It is not clear whether ZFHX3 has a direct role in any of the processes and seems to be a general factor that marks H3K4me3 and K27ac marked chromatin. Why it would specifically impact the core-clock TTFL clock gene expression or indeed daily gene expression rhythms is not clear either. Details for treatment of different ChIP samples (ZFHX3 and histone PTM ChIPs) on data normalization for analysis are needed. The loss of complete rhythmicity of Avp and other neuropeptides or indeed other TFs could instead account for the transcriptional deregulation noted in the knockout mice.

      (8) We thank the reviewer for the constructive feedback.  The current data suggests ZFHX3 acts as a mediating factor, occupying targeted active promoter sites and regulating gene expression by partnering with other key TFs in the SCN. Please see point 7 for clarification. The binding sites of ZFHX3 clearly showed enrichment for E-box(CACGTG) motif bound by CLOCK/BMAL1 along with binding sites for key SCN-specific TFs such as RFX (please see Supplementary Fig1). Our data thereby shows that it affects both core-clock and clock output genes (at varied levels) thereby exercising a pervasive control over the SCN transcriptome. 

      For treatment of ChIP samples please see point 4. We followed ENCODE guidelines strictly.

    1. Frankfurt

      There are a number of things entertaining about this brief and inadequate discussion of Peirce's notion of abduction.

      First of all, there is no reason to require that 'A' must be a pre-existing explanatory hypothesis in the characterization that Frankfurt offers. The reading here is incorrect: one could impose here an additional step that would better capture (abduct) Peirce's thinking:

      1. Surprising fact C is observed
      2. What would be the set of conditions that would account for this rupture of our understanding of reality?
      3. Imaginatively, a set of conditions 'A' might make C seem commonplace
      4. Hence there is some plausibility for A

      In this case, the surprising fact forms an event that requires explanation and hence sends the philosopher back to the metaphysical drawing board, as it were. The metaphysics must be adequate to reality: a new reality requires the invention of a new metaphysics.

      The interpretation does not account for the fact that, in Peirce's explanation, the new fact is unexplainable according to accepted understandings. Furthermore, Douven neglects the status of imagination and speculative reasoning in Peirce's understanding of abduction (a kind of theft, etymologically) and in his understanding of value-laden epistemology. The author's subsequent shift from inventing to adopting pre-existing hypothesis (as if all hypotheses were already pre-existing) fails to recognize the philosophical question that Peirce was grappling with, namely where do ideas come from? How is it that we have hunches that turn out to be pretty good, even if we can't explain why we intuited a particular idea? And more fundamentally, through what activities can our metaphysics conform to diverse realities?

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Migration of the primordial germ cells (PGCs) in mice is asynchronous, such that leading and lagging populations of migrating PGCs emerge. Prior studies found that interactions between the cells the PGCs encounter along their migration routes regulates their proliferation. In this study, the authors used single cell RNAseq to investigate PGC heterogeneity and to characterize their niches during their migration along the AP axis. Unlike prior scRNAseq studies of mammalian PGCs, the authors conducted a time course covering 3 distinct stages of PGC migration (pre, mid, and post migration) and isolated PGCs from defined somite positions along the AP axis. In doing so, this allowed the authors to uncover differences in gene expression between leading and lagging PGCs and their niches and to investigate how their transcript profiles change over time. Among the pathways with the biggest differences were regulators of actin polymerization and epigenetic programming factors and Nodal response genes. In addition, the authors report changes in somatic niches, specifically greater non-canonical WNT in posterior PGCs compared to anterior PGCs. This relationship between the hindgut epithelium and migrating PGCs was also detected in reanalysis of a previously published dataset of human PGCs. Using whole mount immunofluorescence, the authors confirmed elevated Nodal signaling based on detection of the LEFTY antagonists and targets of Nodal during late stage PGC migration. Taken together, the authors have assembled a temporal and spatial atlas of mouse PGCs and their niches. This resource and the data herein provide support for the model that interactions of migrating mouse PGCs with their niches influences their proliferation, cytoskeletal regulation, epigenetic state and pluripotent state.

      Overall, the findings provide new insights into heterogeneity among leading and lagging PGC populations and their niches along the AP axis, as well as comparisons between mouse and human migrating PGCs. The data are clearly presented, and the text is clear and well-written. This atlas resource will be valuable to reproductive and developmental biologists as a tool for generating hypotheses and for comparisons of PGCs across species.

      Strengths:

      (1) High quality atlas of individual PGCs prior to, during and post migration and their niches at defined positions along the AP axis.<br /> (2) Comparisons to available datasets, including human embryos, provide insight into potentially conserved relationships among PGCs and the identified pathways and gene expression changes.<br /> (3) Detailed picture of PGC heterogeneity.<br /> (4) Valuable resource for the field.<br /> (5) Some validation of Nodal results and further support for models in the literature based on less comprehensive expression analysis.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) No indication of which sex(es) were used for the mouse data and whether or not sex-related differences exist or can excluded at the stages examined. This should be clarified.

    2. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This work addresses the question of how 'leading' and 'lagging' PGCs differ, molecularly, during their migration to the mouse genital ridges/gonads during fetal life (E9.5, E10.5, E11.5), and how this is regulated by different somatic environments encountered during the process of migration. E9.5 and E10.5 cells differed in expression of genes involved in canonical WNT signaling and focal adhesions. Differences in cell adhesion, actin cytoskeletal dynamics were identified between leading and lagging cells, at E9.5, before migration into the gonads. At E10.5, when some PGCs have reached the genital ridges, differences in Nodal signaling response genes and reprogramming factors were identified. This last point was verified by whole mount IF for proteins downstream of Nodal signaling, Lefty1/2. At E11.5, there was upregulation of genes associated with chromatin remodeling and oxidative phosphorylation. Some aspects of the findings were also found to be likely true in human development, established via analysis of a dataset previously published by others.

      Strengths:

      The work is strong in that a large number of PGCs were isolated and sequenced, along with associated somatic cells. The authors dealt with problem of very small number of migrating mouse PGCs by pooling cells from embryos (after ascertaining age matching using somite counting). 'Leading' and 'lagging' populations were separated by anterior and posterior embryo halves and the well-established Oct4-deltaPE-eGFP reporter mouse line was used.

      Weaknesses:

      The work seems to have been carefully done, but I do not feel the manuscript is very accessible, and I do not consider it well written. The novel findings are not easy to find. The addition of at least one figure to show the locations of putative signaling etc. would be welcome.

      (1) The initial discussion of CellRank analysis (under 'Transcriptomic shifts over developmental time...' heading) is somewhat confusing - e.g. If CellRank's 'pseudotime analysis' produces a result that seems surprising (some E9.5 cells remain in a terminal state with other E9.5 cells) and 'realtime analysis' produces something that makes more sense, is there any point including the pseudotime analysis (since you have cells from known timepoints)? Perhaps the 'batch effects' possible explanation (in Discussion) should be introduced here. Do we learn anything novel from this CellRank analysis? The 'genetic drivers' identified seem to be genes already known to be key to cell transitions during this period of development.

      (2) In Discussion - with respect to Y-chromosome correlation, it is not clear why this analysis would be done at E10.5, when E11.5 data is available (because some testis-specific effect might be more apparent at the later stage).

      (3) Figure 2A - it seems surprising that there are two clusters of E9.5 anterior cells

      (4) Figure 5F - there does seem to be more LEFTY1/2 staining in the anterior region, but also more germ cells as highlighted by GFP

    1. Author response:

      We sincerely appreciate the insightful feedback and constructive suggestions provided by the reviewers. We thank reviewers for their valuable support in improving our manuscript.

      In response to the public reviews raised by reviewers, we plan to make the following revisions:

      (1) Most metadata have been rectified through collaborative review of original literature sources rather than automated processes. We intend to incorporate a detailed discussion on this matter in the revised manuscript.

      (2) We will include a corrections table for entries to provide clarity and transparency regarding any amendments made.

      (3) Additional references will be included to elucidate the rationale behind the selection of interact residues definition methods and the set threshold. The threshold is not fixed. In fact, we utilized a 5Å cutoff in current version, listing all residues with distances less than 5Å alongside the corresponding distances. The researchers could screen the residues through distance according to their custom cutoff. To offer researchers flexibility, we will also provide interact residues and corresponding distances with higher cutoffs for custom screening. These enhancements will be detailed in the revised manuscript.

      (4)We acknowledge the importance of expanding the database to include a wider range of experimental information and complexes with diverse target sizes. Regrettably, immediate updates to address these limitations are not feasible at this time. Thus, we will give an illustration in the later detail response to reviewers.

    1. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, Mackie et al. investigate gustatory behavior and the neural basis of gustation in the predatory nematode Pristionchus pacificus. First, they show that the behavioral preferences of P. pacificus for gustatory cues differ from those reported for C. elegans. Next, they investigate the molecular mechanisms of salt sensing in P. pacificus. They show that although the C. elegans transcription factor gene che-1 is expressed specifically in the ASE neurons, the P. pacificus che-1 gene is expressed in the Ppa-ASE and Ppa-AFD neurons. Moreover, che-1 plays a less critical role in salt chemotaxis in P. pacificus than C. elegans. Chemogenetic silencing of Ppa-ASE and Ppa-AFD neurons results in more severe chemotaxis defects. The authors then use calcium imaging to show that both Ppa-ASE and Ppa-AFD neurons respond to salt stimuli. Calcium imaging experiments also reveal that the left and right Ppa-ASE neurons respond differently to salts, despite the fact that P. pacificus lacks lsy-6, a microRNA that is important for ASE left/right asymmetry in C. elegans. Finally, the authors show that the receptor guanylate cyclase gene Ppa-gcy-23.3 is expressed in the right Ppa-ASE neuron (Ppa-ASER) but not the left Ppa-ASE neuron (Ppa-ASEL) and is required for some of the gustatory responses of Ppa-ASER, further confirming that the Ppa-ASE neurons are asymmetric and suggesting that Ppa-GCY-23.3 is a gustatory receptor. Overall, this work provides insight into the evolution of gustation across nematode species. It illustrates how sensory neuron response properties and molecular mechanisms of cell fate determination can evolve to mediate species-specific behaviors. However, the paper would be greatly strengthened by a direct comparison of calcium responses to gustatory cues in C. elegans and P. pacificus, since the comparison currently relies entirely on published data for C. elegans, where the imaging parameters likely differ. In addition, the conclusions regarding Ppa-AFD neuron function would benefit from additional confirmation of AFD neuron identity. Finally, how prior salt exposure influences gustatory behavior and neural activity in P. pacificus is not discussed.

      Strengths:

      (1) This study provides exciting new insights into how gustatory behaviors and mechanisms differ in nematode species with different lifestyles and ecological niches. The results from salt chemotaxis experiments suggest that P. pacificus shows distinct gustatory preferences from C. elegans. Calcium imaging from Ppa-ASE neurons suggests that the response properties of the ASE neurons differ between the two species. In addition, an analysis of the expression and function of the transcription factor Ppa-che-1 reveals that mechanisms of ASE cell fate determination differ in C. elegans and P. pacificus, although the ASE neurons play a critical role in salt sensing in both species. Thus, the authors identify several differences in gustatory system development and function across nematode species.

      (2) This is the first calcium imaging study of P. pacificus, and it offers some of the first insights into the evolution of gustatory neuron function across nematode species.

      (3) This study addresses the mechanisms that lead to left/right asymmetry in nematodes. It reveals that the ASER and ASEL neurons differ in their response properties, but this asymmetry is achieved by molecular mechanisms that are at least partly distinct from those that operate in C. elegans. Notably, ASEL/R asymmetry in P. pacificus is achieved despite the lack of a P. pacificus lsy-6 homolog.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The authors observe only weak attraction of C. elegans to NaCl. These results raise the question of whether the weak attraction observed is the result of the prior salt environment experienced by the worms. More generally, this study does not address how prior exposure to gustatory cues shapes gustatory responses in P. pacificus. Is salt sensing in P. pacificus subject to the same type of experience-dependent modulation as salt sensing in C. elegans?

      (2) A key finding of this paper is that the Ppa-CHE-1 transcription factor is expressed in the Ppa-AFD neurons as well as the Ppa-ASE neurons, despite the fact that Ce-CHE-1 is expressed specifically in Ce-ASE. However, additional verification of Ppa-AFD neuron identity is required. Based on the image shown in the manuscript, it is difficult to unequivocally identify the second pair of CHE-1-positive head neurons as the Ppa-AFD neurons. Ppa-AFD neuron identity could be verified by confocal imaging of the CHE-1-positive neurons, co-expression of Ppa-che-1p::GFP with a likely AFD reporter, thermotaxis assays with Ppa-che-1 mutants, and/or calcium imaging from the putative Ppa-AFD neurons.

      (3) Loss of Ppa-che-1 causes a less severe phenotype than loss of Ce-che-1. However, the loss of Ppa-che-1::RFP expression in ASE but not AFD raises the question of whether there might be additional start sites in the Ppa-che-1 gene downstream of the mutation sites. It would be helpful to know whether there are multiple isoforms of Ppa-che-1, and if so, whether the exon with the introduced frameshift is present in all isoforms and results in complete loss of Ppa-CHE-1 protein.

      (4) The authors show that silencing Ppa-ASE has a dramatic effect on salt chemotaxis behavior. However, these data lack control with histamine-treated wild-type animals, with the result that the phenotype of Ppa-ASE-silenced animals could result from exposure to histamine dihydrochloride. This is an especially important control in the context of salt sensing, where histamine dihydrochloride could alter behavioral responses to other salts.

      (5) The calcium imaging data in the paper suggest that the Ppa-ASE and Ce-ASE neurons respond differently to salt solutions. However, to make this point, a direct comparison of calcium responses in C. elegans and P. pacificus using the same calcium indicator is required. By relying on previously published C. elegans data, it is difficult to know how differences in growth conditions or imaging conditions affect ASE responses. In addition, the paper would be strengthened by additional quantitative analysis of the calcium imaging data. For example, the paper states that 25 mM NH4Cl evokes a greater response in ASEL than 250 mM NH4Cl, but a quantitative comparison of the maximum responses to the two stimuli is not shown.

      (6) It would be helpful to examine, or at least discuss, the other P. pacificus paralogs of Ce-gcy-22. Are they expressed in Ppa-ASER? How similar are the different paralogs? Additional discussion of the Ppa-gcy-22 gene expansion in P. pacificus would be especially helpful with respect to understanding the relatively minor phenotype of the Ppa-gcy-22.3 mutants.

      (7) The calcium imaging data from Ppa-ASE is quite variable. It would be helpful to discuss this variability. It would also be helpful to clarify how the ASEL and ASER neurons are being conclusively identified during calcium imaging.

      (8) More information about how the animals were treated prior to calcium imaging would be helpful. In particular, were they exposed to salt solutions prior to imaging? In addition, the animals are in an M9 buffer during imaging - does this affect calcium responses in Ppa-ASE and Ppa-AFD? More information about salt exposure, and how this affects neuron responses, would be very helpful.

      (9) In Figure 6, the authors say that Ppa-gcy-22.3::GFP expression is absent in the Ppa-che-1(ot5012) mutant. However, based on the figure, it looks like there is some expression remaining. Is there a residual expression of Ppa-gcy-22.3::GFP in ASE or possibly ectopic expression in AFD? Does Ppa-che-1 regulate rGC expression in AFD? It would be helpful to address the role of Ppa-che-1 in AFD neuron differentiation.

    2. Author response:

      We very much appreciate the reviewers’ and editor’s overall positive responses to our manuscript "Evolution of lateralized gustation in nematodes".

      Reviewer #1:

      The mechanism of lsy-6-independent establishment of ASEL/R asymmetry in P. pacificus remains uncharacterized. 

      We thank the reviewer for recognizing the novel contributions of our work in revealing the existence of alternative pathways for establishing neuronal lateral asymmetry despite the absence of the lsy-6 miRNA in a divergent nematode species. We are certainly encouraged now to search for genetic factors that abolish asymmetric expression of gcy-22.3.

      Reviewer #2:

      (1) The authors observe only weak attraction of C. elegans to NaCl. These results raise the question of whether the weak attraction observed is the result of the prior salt environment experienced by the worms. More generally, this study does not address how prior exposure to gustatory cues shapes gustatory responses in P. pacificus. Is salt sensing in P. pacificus subject to the same type of experience-dependent modulation as salt sensing in C. elegans? 

      Proposed revision: For our live imaging experiments, we had not considered if starved P. pacificus animals in the presence of salt may exhibit responses different from a well-fed state. However, we will venture to address the effect of experience-dependent modulation in P. pacificus chemotaxis behavior using NH4Cl.

      (2) A key finding of this paper is that the Ppa-CHE-1 transcription factor is expressed in the Ppa-AFD neurons as well as the Ppa-ASE neurons, despite the fact that Ce-CHE-1 is expressed specifically in Ce-ASE. However, additional verification of Ppa-AFD neuron identity is required. Based on the image shown in the manuscript, it is difficult to unequivocally identify the second pair of CHE-1-positive head neurons as the Ppa-AFD neurons. Ppa-AFD neuron identity could be verified by confocal imaging of the CHE-1-positive neurons, co-expression of Ppa-che-1p::GFP with a likely AFD reporter, thermotaxis assays with Ppa-che-1 mutants, and/or calcium imaging from the putative Ppa-AFD neurons. 

      We are happy to provide additional evidence to confirm Ppa-AFD neuron identity since the expression of Ppa-CHE-1 in non-ASE amphid neurons is one of the major differences between the two nematode specie

      Proposed revision: We will provide results showing the Ppa-ttx-1::gfp reporter expression in finger-like neuronal endings and Ppa-_TTX-1::ALFA co-localization with _Ppa-che-1::gfp in the putative AFD neurons and discuss the possible role of Ppa-CHE-1 in AFD differentiation. We attempted to obtain AFD markers using several reporter strains. However, Ppa-gcy-8.1p::gfp(csuEx101) (PPA24212) showed no expression while Ppa-gcy-8.2p::gfp(csuEx100) (PPA41407) showed only expression in pharyngeal cells.

      (4) The authors show that silencing Ppa-ASE has a dramatic effect on salt chemotaxis behavior. However, these data lack control with histamine-treated wild-type animals, with the result that the phenotype of Ppa-ASE-silenced animals could result from exposure to histamine dihydrochloride. This is an especially important control in the context of salt sensing, where histamine dihydrochloride could alter behavioral responses to other salts. 

      Proposed revision: Thank you for noticing this oversight. The control for histamine-treated wild-type worms in the Ppa-ASE silencing experiments was inadvertently left out in the original submission. Because the HisCl transgene is on a randomly segregating transgene array, we have scored worms with and without the transgene expressing the co-injection marker (Ppa-egl-20p::rfp expressed in the tail) to show that the presence of the transgene is necessary for the knockdown of NH4Br attraction.

      We will also address most of the other more minor suggestions and clarifications sought by the reviewers.

    1. Author response:

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this paper Kawasaki et al describe a regulatory role for the PIWI/piRNA pathway in rRNA regulation in Zebrafish. This regulatory role was uncovered through a screen for gonadogenesis defective mutants, which identified a mutation in the meioc gene, a coiled-coil germ granule protein. Loss of this gene leads to redistribution of Piwil1 from germ granules to the nucleolus, resulting in silencing of rRNA transcription.

      Strengths:

      Most of the experimental data provided in this paper is compelling. It is clear that in the absence of meioc, PiwiL1 translocates in to the nucleolus and results in down regulation of rRNA transcription. the genetic compensation of meioc mutant phenotypes (both organismal and molecular) through reduction in PiwiL1 levels are evidence for a direct role for PiwiL1 in mediating the phenotypes of meioc mutant.

      Weaknesses:

      Questions remain on the mechanistic details by which PiwiL1 mediated rRNA down regulation, and whether this is a function of Piwi in an unperturbed/wildtype setting. There is certainly some evidence provided in support of the natural function for piwi in regulating rRNA transcription (figure 5A+5B). However, the de-enrichment of H3K9me3 in the heterozygous (Figure 6F) is very modest and in my opinion not convincingly different relative to the control provided. It is certainly possible that PiwiL1 is regulating levels through cleavage of nascent transcripts. Another aspect I found confounding here is the reduction in rRNA small RNAs in the meioc mutant; I would have assumed that the interaction of PiwiL1 with the rRNA is mediated through small RNAs but the reduction in numbers do not support this model. But perhaps it is simply a redistribution of small RNAs that is occurring. Finally, the ability to reduce PiwiL1 in the nucleolus through polI inhibition with actD and BMH-21 is surprising. What drives the accumulation of PiwiL1 in the nucleolus then if in the meioc mutant there is less transcription anyway?

      Despite the weaknesses outlined, overall I find this paper to be solid and valuable, providing evidence for a consistent link between PIWI systems and ribosomal biogenesis. Their results are likely to be of interest to people in the community, and provide tools for further elucidating the reasons for this link.

      The amount of cytoplasmic rRNA in piwi+/- was increased by 26% on average (figure 5A+5B), the amount of ChiP-qPCR of H3K9 was decreased by about 26% (Figure 6F), and ChiP-qPCR of Piwil1 was decreased by 35% (Figure 6G), so we don't think there is a big discrepancy. On the other hand, the amount of ChiP-qPCR of H3K9 in meioc<sup>mo/mo</sup> was increased by about 130% (Figure 6F), while ChiP-qPCR of Piwil1 was increased by 50%, so there may be a mechanism for H3K9 regulation of Meioc that is not mediated by Piwil1. As for what drives the accumulation of Piwil1 in the nucleolus, although we have found that Piwil1 has affinity for rRNA (Fig. 6A), we do not know what recruits it. Significant increases in the 18-35nt small RNA of 18S, 28S rRNA and R2 were not detected in meioc<sup>mo/mo</sup> testes enriched for 1-8 cell spermatogonia, compared with meioc<sup>+/mo</sup> testes. The nucleolar localization of Piwil1 has revealed in this study, which will be a new topic for future research.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this study, the authors report that Meioc is required to upregulate rRNA transcription and promote differentiation of spermatogonial stem cells in zebrafish. The authors show that upregulated protein synthesis is required to support spermatogonial stem cells' differentiation into multi-celled cysts of spermatogonia. Coiled coil protein Meioc is required for this upregulated protein synthesis and for increasing rRNA transcription, such that the Meioc knockout accumulates 1-2 cell spermatogonia and fails to produce cysts with more than 8 spermatogonia. The Meioc knockout exhibits continued transcriptional repression of rDNA. Meioc interacts with and sequesters Piwil1 to the cytoplasm. Loss of Meioc increases Piwil1 localization to the nucleolus, where Piwil1 interacts with transcriptional silencers that repress rRNA transcription.

      Strengths:

      This is a fundamental study that expands our understanding of how ribosome biogenesis contributes to differentiation and demonstrates that zebrafish Meioc plays a role in this process during spermatogenesis. This work also expands our evolutionary understanding of Meioc and Ythdc2's molecular roles in germline differentiation. In mouse, the Meioc knockout phenocopies the Ythdc2 knockout, and studies thus far have indicated that Meioc and Ythdc2 act together to regulate germline differentiation. Here, in zebrafish, Meioc has acquired a Ythdc2-independent function. This study also identifies a new role for Piwil1 in directing transcriptional silencing of rDNA.

      Weaknesses:

      There are limited details on the stem cell-enriched hyperplastic testes used as a tool for mass spec experiments, and additional information is needed to fully evaluate the mass spec results. What mutation do these testes carry? Does this protein interact with Meioc in the wildtype testes? How could this mutation affect the results from the Meioc immunoprecipitation?

      Stem cell-enriched hyperplastic testes came from wild-type adult sox17::GFP transgenic zebrafish. Sperm were found in these hyperplastic testes, and when stem cells were transplanted, they self-renewed and differentiated into sperm. It is not known if the hyperplasias develop due to a genetic variant in the line. We will add the following comment.

      “The stem cell-enriched hyperplastic testes, which are occasionally found in adult wildtype zebrafish, contain cells at all stages of spermatogenesis. Hyperplasia-derived SSCs self-renewed and differentiated in the same manner as SSCs of normal testes in transplants of aggregates mixed with normal testicular cells.”

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The paper describes the molecular pathway to regulate germ cell differentiation in zebrafish through ribosomal RNA biogenesis. Meioc sequesters Piwil1, a Piwi homolog, which suppresses the transcription of the 45S pre-rDNA by the formation of heterochromatin, to the perinuclear bodies. The key results are solid and useful to researchers in the field of germ cell/meiosis as well as RNA biosynthesis and chromatin.

      Strengths:

      The authors nicely provided the molecular evidence on the antagonism of Meioc to Piwil1 in the rRNA synthesis, which supported by the genetic evidence that the inability of the meioc mutant to enter meiosis is suppressed by the piwil1 heterozygosity.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Although the paper provides very convincing evidence for the authors' claim, the scientific contents are poorly written and incorrectly described. As a result, it is hard to read the text. Checking by scientific experts would be highly recommended. For example, on line 38, "the global translation activity is generally [inhibited]", is incorrect and, rather, a sentence like "the activity is lowered relative to other cells" is more appropriate here. See minor points for more examples.

      Thank you for pointing that out. I will correct the parts pointed out.

      (2) In some figures, it is hard for readers outside of zebrafish meiosis to evaluate the results without more explanation and drawing.

      We will refine Figure 1A and add schema of spermatogonia culture system in a supplemental figure. 

      (3) Figure 1E, F, cycloheximide experiments: Please mention the toxicity of the concentration of the drug in cell proliferation and viability.

      When testicular tissue culture was performed at 0.1, 1, 10, 100, 250, and 500mM, abnormal strong OP-puro signals including nuclei were found in cells at 10mM or more. We will add the results in the Supplemental Material. In addition, at 1mM, growth was perturbed in fast-growing 32≤-cell cysts of spermatogonia, but not in 1-4-cell spermatogonia, as described in L122-125.

    1. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This work assesses the genetic interaction between the Bmp signaling pathway and the factor Numb, which can inhibit Notch signalling. It follows up on the previous studies of the group (Tian, Elife, 2014; Tian, PNAS, 2014) regarding BMP signaling in controlling stem cell fate decision as well as on the work of another group (Sallé, EMBO, 2017) that investigated the function of Numb on enteroendocrine fate in the midgut. This is an important study providing evidence of a Numb-mediated back up mechanism for stem cell maintenance.

      Strengths:

      (1) Experiments are consistent with these previous publications while also extending our understanding of how Numb functions in the ISC.<br /> (2) Provides an interesting model of a "back up" protection mechanism for ISC maintenance.

      Weaknesses:<br /> (1) Aspects of the experiments could be better controlled or annotated:<br /> (a) As they "randomly chose" the regions analyzed, it would be better to have all from a defined region (R4 or R2, for example) or to at least note the region as there are important regional differences for some aspects of midgut biology.<br /> (b) It is not clear to me why MARCM clones were induced and then flies grown at 18{degree sign}C? It would help to explain why they used this unconventional protocol.

      (2) There are technical limitations with trying to conclude from double-knockdown experiments in the ISC lineage, such as those in Figure 1 where Dl and put are both being knocked down: depending on how fast both proteins are depleted, it may be that only one of them (put, for example) is inactivated and affects the fate decision prior to the other one (Dl) being depleted. Therefore, it is difficult to definitively conclude that the decision is independent of Dl ligand.

      (3) Additional quantification of many phenotypes would be desired.<br /> (a) It would be useful to see esg-GFP cells/total cells and not just field as the density might change (2E for example).<br /> (b) Similarly, for 2F and 2G, it would be nice to see the % of ISC/ total cell and EB/total cell and not only per esgGFP+ cell.<br /> (c) Fig1: There is no quantification - specifically it would be interesting to know how many esg+ are su(H)lacZ positive in Put- Dl- condition compared to WT or Put- alone. What is the n?<br /> (d) Fig2: Pros + cells are not seen in the image? Are they all DllacZ+?<br /> (e) Fig3: it would be nice to have the size clone quantification instead of the distribution between groups of 2 cell 3 cells 4 cell clones.<br /> (f) How many times were experiments performed?

      (4) The authors do not comment on the reduction of clone size in DSS treatment in Figure 6K. How do they interpret this? Does it conflict with their model of Bleo vs DSS?

      (5) There is probably a mistake on sentence line 314 -316 "Indeed, previous studies indicate that endogenous Numb was not undetectable by Numb antibodies that could detect Numb expression in the nervous system".

    2. Author response:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      By way of background, the Jiang lab has previously shown that loss of the type II BMP receptor Punt (Put) from intestinal progenitors (ISCs and EBs) caused them to differentiate into EBs, with a concomitant loss of ISCs (Tian and Jiang, eLife 2014). The mechanism by which this occurs was activation of Notch in Put-deficient progenitors. How Notch was upregulated in Put-deficient ISCs was not established in this prior work. In the current study, the authors test whether a very low level of Dl was responsible. But co-depletion of Dl and Put led to a similar phenotype as depletion of Put alone. This result suggested that Dl was not the mechanism. They next investigate genetic interactions between BMP signaling and Numb, an inhibitor of Notch signaling. Prior work from Bardin, Schweisguth and other labs has shown that Numb is not required for ISC self-renewal. However the authors wanted to know whether loss of both the BMP signal transducer Mad and Numb would cause ISC loss. This result was observed for RNAi depletion from progenitors and for mad, numb double mutant clones. Of note, ISC loss was observed in 40% of mad, numb double mutant clones, whereas 60% of these clones had an ISC. They then employed a two-color tracing system called RGT to look at the outcome of ISC divisions (asymmetric (ISC/EB) or symmetric (ISC/ISC or EB/EB)). Control clones had 69%, 15% and 16%, respectively, whereas mad, numb double mutant clones had much lower ISC/ISC (11%) and much higher EB/EB (37%). They conclude that loss of Numb in moderate BMP loss of function mutants increased symmetric differentiation which lead caused ISC loss. They also reported that Numb<sup>15</sup> and numb<sup>4</sup> clones had a moderate but significant increase in ISC-lacking clones compared to control clones, supporting the model that Numb plays a role in ISC maintenance. Finally, they investigated the relevance of these observation during regeneration. After bleomycin treatment, there was a significant increase in ISC-lacking clones and a significant decrease in clone size in numb<sup>4</sup> and Numb<sup>15</sup> clones compared to control clones. Because bleomycin treatment has been shown to cause variation in BMP ligand production, the authors interpret the numb clone under bleomycin results as demonstrating an essential role of Numb in ISC maintenance during regeneration.

      Strengths:

      (i) Most data is quantified with statistical analysis

      (ii) Experiments have appropriate controls and large numbers of samples

      (iii) Results demonstrate an important role of Numb in maintaining ISC number during regeneration and a genetic interaction between Mad and Numb during homeostasis.

      Weaknesses:

      (i) No quantification for Fig. 1

      Thank you for your suggestion. Quantification of Fig.1 will be added.  

      (ii) The premise is a bit unclear. Under homeostasis, strong loss of BMP (Put) leads to loss of ISCs, presumably regardless of Numb level (which was not tested). But moderate loss of BMP (Mad) does not show ISC loss unless Numb is also reduced. I am confused as to why numb does not play a role in Put mutants. Did the authors test whether concomitant loss of Put and Numb leads to even more ISC loss than Put-mutation alone.

      Thank you for your comment. We have tested the genetic interaction between punt and numb using punt RNAi and numb RNAi driven by esg<sup>ts</sup>. According to the results in this study and our previously published data, punt mutant clone or esg<sup>ts</sup>> punt RNAi could induce a rapid loss of ISC (whin 8 days). We did not observe further enhancement of stem cell loss phenotype caused punt RNAi by numb RNAi.

      (iii) I think that the use of the word "essential" is a bit strong here. Numb plays an important role but in either during homeostasis or regeneration, most numb clones or mad, numb double mutant clones still have ISCs. Therefore, I think that the authors should temper their language about the role of Numb in ISC maintenance.

      Thank you. We will revise the language.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This work assesses the genetic interaction between the Bmp signaling pathway and the factor Numb, which can inhibit Notch signalling. It follows up on the previous studies of the group (Tian, Elife, 2014; Tian, PNAS, 2014) regarding BMP signaling in controlling stem cell fate decision as well as on the work of another group (Sallé, EMBO, 2017) that investigated the function of Numb on enteroendocrine fate in the midgut. This is an important study providing evidence of a Numb-mediated back up mechanism for stem cell maintenance.

      Strengths:

      (1) Experiments are consistent with these previous publications while also extending our understanding of how Numb functions in the ISC.

      (2) Provides an interesting model of a "back up" protection mechanism for ISC maintenance.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Aspects of the experiments could be better controlled or annotated:

      (a) As they "randomly chose" the regions analyzed, it would be better to have all from a defined region (R4 or R2, for example) or to at least note the region as there are important regional differences for some aspects of midgut biology.

      Thank you. Since we mainly focus on region 4, we have added the clarification in the manuscript.

      (b) It is not clear to me why MARCM clones were induced and then flies grown at 18{degree sign}C? It would help to explain why they used this unconventional protocol.

      To avoid spontaneous clone, we kept the flies under 18°C.

      (2) There are technical limitations with trying to conclude from double-knockdown experiments in the ISC lineage, such as those in Figure 1 where Dl and put are both being knocked down: depending on how fast both proteins are depleted, it may be that only one of them (put, for example) is inactivated and affects the fate decision prior to the other one (Dl) being depleted. Therefore, it is difficult to definitively conclude that the decision is independent of Dl ligand.

      In our hand, Dl-RNAi is very effective and exhibited loss of N pathway activity as determined by the N pathway reporter Su(H)-lacZ (Fig. 1D). Therefore, the ectopic Su(H)-lacZ expression in Punt Dl double RNAi (fig. 1E) is unlikely due to residual Dl expression. Nevertheless, we will change the statement “BMP signaling blocks ligand-independent N activity” to” Loss of BMP signaling results in ectopic N pathway activity even when Dl is depleted”

      (3) Additional quantification of many phenotypes would be desired.

      (a) It would be useful to see esg-GFP cells/total cells and not just field as the density might change (2E for example).

      We focused on R4 region for quantification where the cell density did not exhibit apparent change in different experimental groups. In addition, we have examined many guts for quantification. It is unlikely that the difference in the esg+ cell number is caused by change in cell density.

      (b) Similarly, for 2F and 2G, it would be nice to see the % of ISC/ total cell and EB/total cell and not only per esgGFP+ cell.

      Unfortunately, we didn’t have the suggested quantification. However, we believe that quantification of the percentage of ISC or EB among all progenitor cells, as we did here, provides a faithful measurement of the self-renewal status of each experimental group.

      (c) Fig1: There is no quantification - specifically it would be interesting to know how many esg+ are su(H)lacZ positive in Put- Dl- condition compared to WT or Put- alone. What is the n?

      Quantification will be added.

      (d) Fig2: Pros + cells are not seen in the image? Are they all DllacZ+?

      Anti-Pros and anti-E(spl)mβ-CD2 were stained in the same channel (magenta).  Pros+ is nuclear dot-like staining, while CD2 outlined the cell membrane of EB cell.

      (e) Fig3: it would be nice to have the size clone quantification instead of the distribution between groups of 2 cell 3 cells 4 cell clones.

      Thank you for your suggestion. In this study, we have quantified the clone size of each clone and calculated the average size for each genotype. However, the frequency distribution analysis was chosen because it highlights the significance of the clone size differences among genotypes.

      (f) How many times were experiments performed?

      All experiments are performed 3 times.

      (4) The authors do not comment on the reduction of clone size in DSS treatment in Figure 6K. How do they interpret this? Does it conflict with their model of Bleo vs DSS?

      numb<sup>4</sup> clone containing guts treated with DSS exhibited a slight reduction of clone size, evident by a higher percentage of 2-cell clones and lower percentage of > 8 cell clones. This reduction is less significant in guts containing numb<sup>15</sup> clones. However, the percentage of Dl<sup>+</sup>-containing clones is similar between DSS and mock-treated guts. It is possible that ISC proliferation is lightly reduced due to numb<sup>4</sup> mutation or the genetic background.

      (5) There is probably a mistake on sentence line 314 -316 "Indeed, previous studies indicate that endogenous Numb was not undetectable by Numb antibodies that could detect Numb expression in the nervous system".

      We will make a correction of the sentence.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors provide an in-depth analysis of the function of Numb in adult Drosophila midgut. Based on RNAi combinations and double mutant clonal analyses, they propose that Numb has a function in inhibiting Notch pathway to maintain intestinal stem cells, and is a backup mechanism with BMP pathway in maintaining midgut stem cell mediated homeostasis.

      Strengths:

      Overall, this is a carefully constructed series of experiments, and the results and statistical analyses provides believable evidence that Numb has a role, albeit weak compared to other pathways, in sustaining ISC and in promoting regeneration especially after damage by bleomycin, which may damage enterocytes and therefore disrupt BMP pathway more. The results overall support their claim.

      The data are highly coherent, and support a genetic function of Numb, in collaborating with BMP signaling, to maintain the number and proliferative function of ISCs in adult midguts. The authors used appropriate and sophisticated genetic tools of double RNAi, mutant clonal analysis and dual marker stem cell tracing approaches to ensure the results are reproducible and consistent. The statistical analyses provide confidence that the phenotypic changes are reliable albeit weaker than many other mutants previously studied.

      Weaknesses:

      In the absence of Numb itself, the midgut has a weak reduction of ISC number (Fig. 3 and 5), as well as weak albeit not statistically significant reduction of ISC clone size/proliferation. I think the authors published similar experiments with BMP pathway mutants. The mad<sup>1-2</sup> allele used here as stated below may not be very representative of other BMP pathway mutants. Therefore, it could be beneficial to compare the number of ISC number and clone sizes between other BMP experiments to provide the readers with a clearer picture of how these two pathways individually contribute (stronger/weaker effects) to the ISC number and gut homeostasis.

      Thank you for your comment. We have tested other components of BMP pathway in our previously study (Tian et al., 2014). More complete loss of BMP signaling (for example, Put clones, Put RNAi, Tkv/Sax double mutant clones or double RNAi) resulted in ISC loss regardless of the status of numb, suggesting a more predominant role of BMP signaling in ISC self-renewal compared with Numb. We speculate that the weak stem cell loss phenotype associated with numb mutant clones in otherwise wild type background could be due to fluctuation of BMP signaling in homeostatic guts.

      The main weakness of this manuscript is the analysis of the BMP pathway components, especially the mad<sup>1-2</sup> allele. The mad RNAi and mad<sup>1-2</sup> alleles (P insertion) are supposed to be weak alleles and that might be suitable for genetic enhancement assays here together with numb RNAi. However, the mad<sup>1-2</sup> allele, and sometimes the mad RNAi, showed weakly increased ISC clone size. This is kind of counter-intuitive that they should have a similar ISC loss and ISC clone size reduction.

      We used mad<sup>1-2</sup> and mad RNAi here to test the genetic interaction with numb because our previous studies showed that partial loss of BMP signaling under these conditions did not cause stem cell loss, therefore, may provide a sensitized background to determine the role of Numb in ISC self-renewal. The increased proliferation of ISC/ clone size in associated with mad<sup>1-2</sup> and mad RNAi is due to the fact that the reduction of BMP signaling in either EC or EB will non-autonomously induce stem cell proliferation. However, in mad numb double mutant clones, there was a reduction in clone size, which correlated with loss of ISC.

      A much stronger phenotype was observed when numb mutants were subject to treatment of tissue damaging agents Bleomycin, which causes damage in different ways than DSS. Bleomycin as previously shown to be causing mainly enterocyte damage,  and therefore disrupt BMP signaling from ECs more likely. Therefore, this treatment together with loss of numb led to a highly significant reduction of ISC in clones and reduction of clone size/proliferation. One improvement is that it is not clear whether the authors discussed the nature of the two numb mutant alleles used in this study and the comparison to the strength of the RNAi allele. Because the phenotypes are weak and more variable, the use of specific reagents is important.

      Numb<sup>15</sup> is a null allele, and the nature of numb<sup>4</sup> has not been elucidated. According to Domingos, P.M. et al., numb<sup>15</sup> induced a more severe phenotype than numb<sup>4</sup> did. Consistently, we also found that more numb<sup>15</sup> mutant clones were void of stem cell than numb<sup>4</sup>.

      Furthermore, the use of possible activating alleles of either or both pathways to test genetic enhancement or synergistic activation will provide strong support for the claims.

      Activation of BMP (Tkv<sup>CA</sup>) also induced stem cell tumor (Tian et al., 2014), which is not suitable for synergistic activation experiment.

    1. Briefing Doc: 4 expériences sociales pour comprendre les RUMEURS

      Source: Vidéo Youtube "4 expériences sociales pour comprendre les RUMEURS" de Fouloscopie

      Thèmes principaux:

      Propagation des rumeurs: La vidéo explore comment les rumeurs se propagent et se transforment en utilisant des expériences sociales.

      Distorsion de l'information: L'accent est mis sur la manière dont l'information se déforme au fur et à mesure qu'elle est transmise, s'éloignant souvent du message original.

      Dissonance cognitive: La vidéo explore comment le biais humain et les préjugés influencent la transformation de l'information pour s'adapter aux conceptions préexistantes.

      Réseaux de propagation: La vidéo utilise l'exemple des cascades de propagation pour illustrer la propagation des rumeurs dans un groupe et les facteurs influençant sa vitesse et sa précision.

      Expériences et résultats clés:

      1. Chaîne de transmission gestuelle:

      Objectif: Démontrer la simplification et la distorsion de l'information dans une chaîne de transmission. Déroulement: Un geste complexe est transmis de personne à personne.

      Résultats: Le geste se simplifie rapidement, perdant des éléments et se transformant jusqu'à devenir méconnaissable.

      Citation: "Après 4, 5 personnes c'était déjà n'importe quoi ! C'est plutôt un spectacle de cirque."

      2. Chaîne de transmission de dessins:

      Objectif: Étudier la transformation d'une information visuelle complexe. Déroulement: Des dessins difficiles à reproduire sont copiés successivement par les participants.

      Résultats: Les dessins perdent rapidement leur signification d'origine, évoluant vers des formes plus simples et reconnaissables, comme des chiffres.

      Citation: "Clairement, c'est la deuxième hypothèse qui s'avère juste : on a complètement perdu le chien pour une sorte de gribouillage sans signification."

      3. Chaîne de transmission d'une histoire:

      Objectif: Analyser la distorsion narrative et l'influence des dissonances cognitives.

      Déroulement: Une histoire tirée des contes des mille et une nuits, modifiée pour introduire une dissonance, est transmise entre les participants.

      Résultats: L'histoire se simplifie et se modifie, la marchande riche et avare se transformant souvent en une vieille dame pauvre, conformément aux stéréotypes.

      Citation: "Alors tout ça c'est rigolo, mais maintenant on va analyser les données..."

      4. Réseau de propagation d'une histoire courte :

      Objectif: Étudier la diffusion d'une information dans un groupe et l'influence de l'organisation sur la vitesse et la précision.

      Déroulement: Une courte histoire est diffusée le plus rapidement possible au sein d'un groupe, en utilisant des casquettes pour indiquer la réception du message.

      Résultats: L'organisation en petits groupes permet d'accélérer la diffusion, mais la précision de l'information peut en souffrir.

      Citation: "L'organisation est parfaite et il leur faut seulement 30 secondes pour terminer toutes les transmissions... La cascade de propagation qui a seulement 2 niveaux de profondeur, donc c'est probablement le plus rapide qu'on puisse faire."

      Conclusion:

      La vidéo met en évidence la fragilité de l'information lors de sa transmission et l'importance de la vérification des sources.

      Les rumeurs se propagent et se transforment rapidement, influencées par la simplification, la distorsion et les biais cognitifs.

      La compréhension de ces mécanismes est essentielle pour lutter contre la désinformation.

    2. La vidéo "4 expériences sociales pour comprendre les RUMEURS" offre un cadre pertinent pour analyser la diffusion d'une rumeur au sein d'un établissement scolaire.

      Les expériences et concepts présentés peuvent être directement transposés à ce contexte.

      La propagation d'une rumeur en milieu scolaire peut être assimilée à une chaîne de transmission, comme illustré par les expériences de la vidéo.

      La rumeur, initialement concise, se propage de personne à personne, subissant des modifications à chaque étape.

      Prenons l'exemple de la chaîne de transmission gestuelle (0:00-2:50). Imaginez un élève inventant un geste pour se moquer d'un professeur.

      Ce geste, transmis de camarade à camarade, se simplifie et se transforme, perdant son sens initial pour devenir une simple grimace.

      La rumeur, initialement liée à un geste précis, s'est transformée en une information déformée.

      L'expérience du dessin (2:50-5:40) illustre également la déformation de l'information.

      Un dessin complexe, représentant un événement précis, peut se transformer en une image abstraite, voire une nouvelle représentation.

      La rumeur initiale, ancrée dans un fait, devient méconnaissable.

      L'expérience de la transmission verbale (5:40-9:10) souligne l'influence de la dissonance cognitive.

      Face à une information inattendue ou incompatible avec ses croyances, l'individu la modifie pour la rendre plus acceptable.

      Appliqué au contexte scolaire, une rumeur concernant un élève populaire commettant un acte répréhensible sera modifiée pour préserver son image positive.

      Enfin, l'expérience de la diffusion en réseau (12:00-16:45) met en lumière la rapidité et la complexité de la propagation d'une rumeur.

      La rumeur se diffuse rapidement à travers des réseaux d'amis, de classes, de groupes.

      La structure de ces réseaux, l'organisation des individus et la qualité de la communication influencent la diffusion de la rumeur.

      En conclusion, la vidéo "4 expériences sociales pour comprendre les RUMEURS" offre des clés de compréhension de la diffusion d'une rumeur en milieu scolaire.

      La rumeur subit des transformations à chaque étape de sa transmission, influencée par la simplification, la distorsion, la dissonance cognitive et la structure des réseaux sociaux.

    3. Cette vidéo de Fouloscopie explore la propagation des rumeurs à travers plusieurs expériences. On observe d'abord la transmission déformée d'un geste simple, puis d'un dessin, illustrant comment l'information se simplifie et se distord au fur et à mesure qu'elle est transmise, perdant parfois son sens initial.

      L'expérience principale utilise une histoire issue des Mille et une nuits, modifiée pour introduire une dissonance cognitive, démontrant comment les participants modifient l'histoire pour la rendre plus familière et cohérente avec leurs propres biais culturels.

      Finalement, l'expérience des casquettes rouges illustre la propagation en réseau d'une information, analysée via le concept de "cascade de propagation", soulignant l'impact de l'organisation et de l'efficacité de la communication sur la transmission de l'information.

      Le but est de démontrer les mécanismes psychologiques et sociaux à l'œuvre dans la diffusion et la transformation des rumeurs.

      Voici un sommaire minuté de la vidéo "4 expériences sociales pour comprendre les RUMEURS" :

      0:00-2:50 : Introduction et première expérience : la chaîne de transmission gestuelle. * Cette expérience utilise un geste complexe qui se simplifie et se transforme à mesure qu'il est transmis entre les participants. * L'objectif est d'illustrer comment les rumeurs se propagent et se déforment. * Deux concepts clés sont introduits : la simplification et la distorsion de l'information. * Trois exemples de chaînes de transmission gestuelle sont montrés pour illustrer ces concepts.

      2:50-5:40 : Deuxième expérience : la chaîne de transmission avec un dessin. * Un dessin complexe est utilisé comme point de départ. * Deux hypothèses sont présentées : simplification vers un dessin minimaliste ou distorsion vers une nouvelle signification. * Le résultat de l'expérience montre une perte rapide de la signification d'origine et l'émergence d'une nouvelle signification stable (des chiffres). * Une deuxième chaîne de transmission avec un dessin différent confirme la tendance à la distorsion.

      5:40-9:10 : Troisième expérience : la chaîne de transmission verbale avec une histoire. * Introduction de Frederic Bartlett et de ses recherches sur les rumeurs. * Explication du concept de dissonance cognitive et de son influence sur la distorsion des informations. * Présentation de l'histoire des "Babouches d'Abou Kassem" adaptée pour l'expérience. * Mise en place de quatre chaînes de transmission pour l'histoire.

      9:10-12:00 : Analyse des résultats de la troisième expérience. * Décomposition de l'histoire en 23 unités d'information pour le suivi. * Présentation d'un diagramme pour visualiser la propagation et la déformation des informations. * Confirmation de la théorie de la simplification et de la distorsion de l'information. * Vérification de l'hypothèse de Frederic Bartlett sur la transformation de l'élément de surprise (le personnage féminin).

      12:00-16:45 : Quatrième expérience : la diffusion en réseau d'une histoire. * Introduction du concept de réseau de propagation et de sa rapidité. * Mise en place d'un défi de diffusion d'une histoire avec des casquettes rouges pour identifier les participants informés. * Introduction du concept de cascade de propagation et de sa profondeur. * Deuxième défi de diffusion avec une nouvelle histoire et analyse de la cascade de propagation. * Troisième défi de diffusion avec une organisation en groupes pour optimiser la propagation. * Quatrième défi de diffusion avec un focus sur la rapidité et la précision.

      16:45-17:40 : Conclusion et message principal de la vidéo. * Récapitulation du concept de cascade de propagation et de son importance pour la compréhension de la propagation des rumeurs. * Appel à la vigilance face aux informations trop simples ou sensationnelles et à la vérification des sources. * Remerciements et conclusion de la vidéo.

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, the authors set out to determine how a DNA demethylation enzyme TET2 regulates beta cell senescence in the context of Type 2 Diabetes and aging. They analyze public RNA-seq data and found upregulation of TET2 coincident with downregulation of MOF and PTEN, genes involved in chromatin regulation and cell cycle. TET2 is upregulated during aging, high-fat diet feeding, high glucose on rat beta cell line INS1E, and in leptin receptor deficient (db/db) mice islets. This was not found for TET1 and TET3. TET2 global KO mice show improved glucose tolerance during aging, but not TET1 or TET3. The authors show improved beta cell identity genes in TET2 KO islets. They they performed DNA methyalation/hydroxymethylation analyses of TET2 KO transformed rat beta cell line INS1E followed by ChIP-seq of Histone H4K16 acetylation to find this mark relies on TET2 expression. Finally they demonstrate in the cell lines that overexpressing TET2 leads to loss of MOF and increased PTEN and p16, linking TET2 to a regulatory mechanism with these factors that may influence senescence.

      Strengths:

      The study uses a number of orthogonal approaches and evidence from cell lines and the genetic TET2 KO as well as primary islets. The concept is interesting and potentially useful to the field. Efforts were made to examine TET1 and TET3 paralogues to rule out their compensation.

      Weaknesses:

      The study has several major weaknesses that mean the data presented did not fully support the main conclusions. These include the following:

      (1) From the beginning of the manuscript the authors first sentence does not seem to indicate which datasets were analysed, the rationale behind why public datasets were used and what the main conclusions are being drawn from the plots shown throughout Fig. 1. This section of the manuscript was very hard to follow, and lacked rationale and explanation as to what these data show.

      (2) All of the metabolic phenotypic data come from global TET2 KO mice, where TET2 is lost from all cells. The authors need to use a beta cell-specific KO of TET2 to ensure that metabolic changes are not due to cross-talk with other tissues (e.g. liver, adipose, even effects on central control of metabolism). No insulin tolerance tests were done to ascertain phenotypes in other metabolic tissues. This was a major weakness of the study. The authors should also provide clear validation of their global TET2 KO mice demonstrating a total lack of protein in islets and metabolic tissues.

      (3) TET2 localization and expression pattern in islets was not clearly demonstrated and the data shown are not convincing from Fig 3 and Fig 4. In Fig 3e the staining for TET2 in green looks ubiquitous in acinar tissue (not nuclear) and not in the islet. In Fig 4d there is an increase in nuclear stain shown during aging, but no INS stain is used to show specificity to beta cells. Thus there is not sufficient data to support the expression pattern and localization of TET2 and specificity of the antibody.

      (4) In Fig. 5: The effect sizes for the beta cell identity gene expression differences by qRT-PCR between WT and TET2 KO islets shown in Fig 5 are extremely modest so as to be questionable whether they are biologically meaningful. The same is true of the senescence markers quantified from isolated islets by qRT-PCR in Fig 5f. The immunostains for Pdx1 are hard to see and signal should be quantified. The SA-Bgal staining is quantified but no representative image is shown. The p16 immunostaining is not clear and should be quantified. Given that a lack of truly specific p16 antibodies in mouse immunostainings have been a major issue for the field, the authors would be advised to demonstrate specificity of the antibody if possible on mouse KO tissue, or to at least validate the predicted increase in p16 staining comparing young versus old pancreas as has been shown in other studies.

      (5) Throughout the manuscript the figures colors are difficult to see and text difficult to read. Text in the p-values above the bars on most Figures is not legible (particularly Figs 4, 5, and 9). The legends simply do not contain sufficient information to interpret the data panels. This is true from Figures 1 through 9. P-value and specific statistical tests are missing from legends as well. For instance, in Fig 6c, what is being shown in LV-Ctrl vs LV-TET2 and why are these sample labels the same for two sets of images with two different outcomes of the staining? How many cells were quantified here?

      (6) There is an over-reliance on cell lines throughout the manuscript. INS1E and BTC6 are not truly representative of mature adult mouse or rat beta cells, and hence the connections between H4K16ac/MOF/PTEN and TET2 must be assessed in primary mouse or rat islets to confirm these phenotypes.

      (7) In the in vitro studies of senescence markers, it is not convincingly shown that the cells are actually senescent. Even though there changes found in expression of p16 and SA-Bgal in the cultures, the authors did not evaluate key senescence phenotypes such as the actual cell cycle arrest, SASP proteins or apoptosis resistance. Are the cells actually senescent or are these markers simply increasing? Hence much of the changes driven by TET2 overexpression in the in vitro cell lines could likely changes in p16 protein but not actually a senescence phenotype. BTC6, INS1E, and MIN6 are cell lines that are transformed, and while they can undergo some senescence-like changes in response to specific stressors like lipotoxicity, DNA damage, or oxidative stress, the authors did not evaluate these, only senescence genes/proteins in otherwise unstressed cells. Thus the claim that TET2 modifies senescence of beta cells remains unsubstantiated from the in vitro studies. It was not clear how any of these studies related to beta cell senescence in T2DM where there is metabolic and/or gluco-lipotoxic stress. Although it is claimed from Fig 9 that TET2 regulates PTEN/MOF axis to regulate beta cell function, no functional data (e.g. GSIS) are shown.

      (8) There were issues and difficulties with the writing in the introduction and discussion in that they did not clearly or adequately describe, discuss or interpret the main conclusions and their significance. The work is not positioned within the current state of the field and it is very difficult to follow the rationales for the study and the advances in knowledge provided.

    2. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:<br /> Epigenetic regulation is critical for maintaining cellular function, and its dysregulation contributes to senescence and disease. This manuscript investigates the role of TET2 in β cell aging, proposing that TET2-mediated PTEN DNA methylation promotes H4K16 acetylation (H4K16ac) through MOF, driving β cell senescence. Using TET2 inhibitors, RNA interference, lentiviral overexpression, and knockout mouse models, the authors aim to establish TET2 as a key player in β cell aging and a potential therapeutic target in type 2 diabetes mellitus (T2DM).<br /> However, significant limitations reduce the manuscript's impact. Figures are poorly presented, with illegible fonts and unquantified staining panels, while key analyses, such as β cell specificity and senescence inducers, are missing. The rationale for focusing on H4K16ac and MOF is unclear, and the authors fail to address whether β cell identity gene changes reflect altered gene expression or mass. Additionally, critical controls, such as low-fat diet cohorts, are absent, and the writing lacks clarity and coherence. Together, these weaknesses undermine the validity of the findings.

      Main Comments<br /> Figures 1 and 2:<br /> The fonts in Figures 1 and 2 are barely visible and should be improved for readability. Additionally, do TET2 protein levels change in mouse and human β cells with aging? Is there evidence from regression analyses using single-cell RNA sequencing on human islets that TET2 expression correlates with age-associated gene signatures in β cells? Are these correlations specific to β cells, or do they extend to other islet cell types? It would also be informative to assess whether TET2 levels increase with senescence inducers such as DNA damage agents (e.g., bleomycin, doxorubicin) or reactive oxygen species (e.g., H₂O₂).<br /> Figure 3:<br /> Why do TET2 protein levels appear stronger in acinar cells? Additionally, the predominant cellular localization of TET2 seems to be cytoplasmic. Can the authors clarify or expand on this observation?<br /> Figure 4:<br /> The data on the impact of TET2 insufficiency in vivo is compelling. There are several quality control experiments to validate their model and main hypothesis (That T2t2 expression increases with aging in beta-cells). Here, authors have the right system to validate their initial Tet2 protein dynamics in the mouse, since they have a KO mouse model. Here, it would be useful to co-stain Tet2 with insulin and glucagon, to infer the dynamics of Tet2 in the two most abundant islet cell types.<br /> Figure 5:<br /> The upregulation of β-cell identity genes in the KO mouse model raises an important question: Is this effect due to an actual increase in gene expression or simply a higher proportion of β cells? Quantifying β-cell mass and performing gene expression analyses on FACS-sorted β cells would help address this. Additionally, the staining panels lack quantification. For instance, GLUT2 staining appears cytoplasmic when it should be membranous. The authors focus on cellular senescence, but does apoptosis increase in wild-type mice under a high-fat diet (HFD)? Including animals on a low-fat diet (LFD) for comparison would add valuable context.<br /> Figure 6:<br /> The data suggest an increase in cell numbers in TET2-overexpressing cells. Does this indicate an effect on β-cell proliferation? Quantification would provide clarity.<br /> Figure 8:<br /> The rationale for focusing on H4K16ac is insufficiently discussed. What is the mechanism linking TET2-induced changes to decreased H4K16ac levels? Including a more thorough explanation in the introduction and discussion would enhance the manuscript.<br /> Figure 9:<br /> The introduction lacks any discussion of H4K16ac or MOF. The discussion paragraph (lines 530-540) that elaborates on these points should instead be moved to the introduction to improve the manuscript's flow. Furthermore, the authors should cite their 2022 paper on H4K16ac as part of the rationale for focusing on this histone modification.

      Minor Comments:<br /> The manuscript would benefit from language refinement. Examples include:<br /> Line 183: Replace "the blood included" with a more precise description.<br /> Line 315: "treated with RNA seq" should be rephrased to clarify methodology (e.g., "analyzed via RNA sequencing").<br /> Line 456: Replace "expression of H4K16ac" with "levels of H4K16ac."<br /> Line 496: The phrase "can solve scientific problems from multiple dimensions" sounds vague and overly broad; consider rephrasing to be more specific.

    1. UNIT TOPIC REFLECTIONWrite a narrative about the focus of your unit. ●What do you already know about the content? ●How do you remember learning about this yourself? ●How does this theme or concept exist in your own life, and how do you utilize it in your day-to-day activities?Standards ReferencesStandards Reference:Colorado Academic Standards(CAS), Common Core Standards(CCSS) Strand or Domain, Next Generation Science Standards(NGSS) Domain●Identify the Evidence Outcomes from the CAS, providing a reference to the standards document and the number of the statement, (e.g., CCSS.MATH.CONTENT.4.OA.A.1, or CAS MU09-GR.7-S.4-GLE.1, 2).●If using CCSS, provide the “standard statements” related to your unit.●If using NGSS, provide the “performance expectations.”Unit Learning ObjectivesUnit Learning ObjectivesIdentify the learning objectives for the unit. Unit Learning Objectives should be based upon the standards referenced above with clear connections between Cognitive Process(es)Identify the types of thinking required by the learning objectives (categorized using the revised Bloom’s Taxonomy). Consider the diversity of cognitive processes address through your unit.

      Should we lean into unit that we haven't learned ourselves by saying we haven't or always approach with a lens of teacher expert even if learning together? I lean on the former but I wonder if there are scenarios where you may want to gloss over

  3. inst-fs-iad-prod.inscloudgate.net inst-fs-iad-prod.inscloudgate.net
    1. The study first assessed the children shortly after they began kinder-garten, providing a picture of their skills at the starting line of their for-mal schooling. It shows that children from families in the top 20 percent of the income distribution already outscore children from the bottom 20 percent by 106 points in early literacy. This difference is nearly twice the size of the gap between the average reading skills of white and both black and Hispanic children at that age, and nearly equal to the amount that the typical child learns during kindergarten. Moreover, the reading gap was even larger when the same children were tested in fifth grade. Gaps in mathematics achievement are also substantial. 2 Children are more successful in school when they are able to pay at-tention, when they get along with peers and teachers, and when they are not preoccupied or depressed because of troubles at home. Using the same SAT-type metric as for reading scores, figure 3.1 shows that, according to teachers, children from more affluent families are more engaged than their low-income peers. Also, children from low-income families are more likely to engage in antisocial behavior and to have mental health problems. These differences are smaller than the differences in reading skills. None of these advantages for high-income children shrinks over the course of elementary school, nor do they decline as children move to high school. Indeed, another national data set focusing on eighth graders in 1988 shows that 95 percent of students from families in the top quarter of the income distribution graduated from high school, as compared with only 64 percent of those from the bottom quarter.3 As we saw in chapter 2, the income-based gap in college graduation rates is even larger and has grown sharply over the last three decades. Why might growing gaps in family income cause an increasing gap between the school success of low-income and higher-income children? According to economic theory, families with higher incomes are better able to purchase or produce important "inputs" into their young chil-dren's development-for example, nutritious meals, enriched home learn-ing environments and child-care settings outside the home, and safe and stimulating neighborhood environments.4 Alternatively, psychologists and sociologists focus on how economic disadvantage impairs the quality of family relationships. 5 We consider each of these explanations in turn.

      It’s striking to me how deeply income disparities shape academic readiness, even before formal education begins. The fact that the literacy gap between income groups surpasses racial disparities speaks volumes about the profound impact of economic inequality on opportunity, and the troubling reality that these gaps widen as children grow older.

    1. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this work, the authors present a biologically plausible, efficient E-I spiking network model and study various aspects of the model and its relation to experimental observations. This includes a derivation of the network into two (E-I) populations, the study of single-neuron perturbations and lateral-inhibition, the study of the effects of adaptation and metabolic cost, and considerations of optimal parameters. From this, they conclude that their work puts forth a plausible implementation of efficient coding that matches several experimental findings, including feature-specific inhibition, tight instantaneous balance, a 4 to 1 ratio of excitatory to inhibitory neurons, and a 3 to 1 ratio of I-I to E-I connectivity strength.

      Strengths:

      While many network implementations of efficient coding have been developed, such normative models are often abstract and lacking sufficient detail to compare directly to experiments. The intention of this work to produce a more plausible and efficient spiking model and compare it with experimental data is important and necessary in order to test these models. In rigorously deriving the model with real physical units, this work maps efficient spiking networks onto other more classical biophysical spiking neuron models. It also attempts to compare the model to recent single-neuron perturbation experiments, as well as some long-standing puzzles about neural circuits, such as the presence of separate excitatory and inhibitory neurons, the ratio of excitatory to inhibitory neurons, and E/I balance. One of the primary goals of this paper, to determine if these are merely biological constraints or come from some normative efficient coding objective, is also important. Lastly, though several of the observations have been reported and studied before, this work arguably studies them in more depth, which could be useful for comparing more directly to experiments.

      Weaknesses:

      This work is the latest among a line of research papers studying the properties of efficient spiking networks. Many of the characteristics and findings here have been discussed before, thereby limiting the new insights that this work can provide. Thus, the conclusions of this work should be considered and understood in the context of those previous works, as the authors state. Furthermore, the number of assumptions and free parameters in the model, though necessary to bring the model closer to biophysical reality, make it more difficult to understand and to draw clear conclusions from. As the authors state, many of the optimality claims depend on these free parameters, such as the dimensionality of the input signal (M=3), the relative weighting of encoding error and metabolic cost, and several others. This raises the possibility that it is not the case that the set of biophysical properties measured in the brain are accounted for by efficient coding, but rather that theories of efficient coding are flexible enough to be consistent with this regime. With this in mind, some of the conclusions made in the text may be overstated and should be considered in this light.

      Conclusions, Impact, and additional context:

      Notions of optimality are important for normative theories, but they are often studied in simple models with as few free parameters as possible. Biophysically detailed and mechanistic models, on the other hand, will often have many free parameters by their very nature, thereby muddying the connection to optimality. This tradeoff is an important concern in neuroscientific models. Previous efficient spiking models have often been criticized for their lack of biophysically-plausible characteristics, such as large synaptic weights, dense connectivity, and instantaneous communication. This work is an important contribution in showing that such networks can be modified to be much closer to biophysical reality without losing their essential properties. Though the model presented does suffer from complexity issues which raise questions about its connections to "optimal" efficient coding, the extensive study of various parameter dependencies offers a good characterization of the model and puts its conclusions in context.

    2. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife Assessment

      This study offers a useful treatment of how the population of excitatory and inhibitory neurons integrates principles of energy efficiency in their coding strategies. The analysis provides a comprehensive characterisation of the model, highlighting the structured connectivity between excitatory and inhibitory neurons. However, the manuscript provides an incomplete motivation for parameter choices. Furthermore, the work is insufficiently contextualized within the literature, and some of the findings appear overlapping and incremental given previous work.

      We are genuinely grateful to the Editors and Reviewers for taking time to provide extremely valuable suggestions and comments, which will help us to substantially improve our paper. We decided to do our very best to implement all suggestions, as detailed in the point-by-point rebuttal letter below. We feel that our paper has improved considerably as a result. 

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review): 

      Summary: Koren et al. derive and analyse a spiking network model optimised to represent external signals using the minimum number of spikes. Unlike most prior work using a similar setup, the network includes separate populations of excitatory and inhibitory neurons. The authors show that the optimised connectivity has a like-to-like structure, leading to the experimentally observed phenomenon of feature competition. They also characterise the impact of various (hyper)parameters, such as adaptation timescale, ratio of excitatory to inhibitory cells, regularisation strength, and background current. These results add useful biological realism to a particular model of efficient coding. However, not all claims seem fully supported by the evidence. Specifically, several biological features, such as the ratio of excitatory to inhibitory neurons, which the authors claim to explain through efficient coding, might be contingent on arbitrary modelling choices. In addition, earlier work has already established the importance of structured connectivity for feature competition. A clearer presentation of modelling choices, limitations, and prior work could improve the manuscript.

      Thanks for these insights and for this summary of our work.  

      Major comments:

      (1) Much is made of the 4:1 ratio between excitatory and inhibitory neurons, which the authors claim to explain through efficient coding. I see two issues with this conclusion: (i) The 4:1 ratio is specific to rodents; humans have an approximate 2:1 ratio (see Fang & Xia et al., Science 2022 and references therein); (ii) the optimal ratio in the model depends on a seemingly arbitrary choice of hyperparameters, particularly the weighting of encoding error versus metabolic cost. This second concern applies to several other results, including the strength of inhibitory versus excitatory synapses. While the model can, therefore, be made consistent with biological data, this requires auxiliary assumptions.

      We now describe better the ratio of numbers of E and I neurons found in real data, as suggested. The first submission already contained an analysis of how the optimal ratio of E vs I neuron numbers depends in our model on the relative weighting of the loss of E and I neurons and on the relative weighting of the encoding error vs the metabolic cost in the loss function (see Fig. 7E). We revised the text on page 12 describing Fig. 7E. 

      To allow readers to form easily a clear idea of how the weighting of the error vs the cost may influence the optimal network configuration, we now present how optimal parameters depend on the weighting in a systematic way, by always including this type of analysis when studying all other model parameters (time constants of single E and I neurons, noise intensity, metabolic constant, ratio of mean I-I to E-I connectivity). These results are shown on the Supplementary Fig. S4 A-D and H, and we comment briefly on each of them in Results sections (pages 9, 10, 11 and 12) that analyze each of these parameters.  

      Following this Reviewer’s comment, we now included a joint analysis of network performance relative to the ratio of E-I neuron numbers and the ratio of mean I-I to E-I connectivity (Fig. 7J). We found a positive correlation between optima values of these two ratios. This implies that a lower ratio of E-I neuron numbers, such as a 2:1 ratio in human cortex mentioned by the reviewer, predicts lower optimal ratio of I-I to E-I connectivity and thus weaker inhibition in the network. We made sure that this finding is suitably described in revision (page 13).

      (2) A growing body of evidence supports the importance of structured E-I and I-E connectivity for feature selectivity and response to perturbations. For example, this is a major conclusion from the Oldenburg paper (reference 62 in the manuscript), which includes extensive modelling work. Similar conclusions can be found in work from Znamenskiy and colleagues (experiments and spiking network model; bioRxiv 2018, Neuron 2023 (ref. 82)), Sadeh & Clopath (rate network; eLife, 2020), and Mackwood et al. (rate network with plasticity; eLife, 2021). The current manuscript adds to this evidence by showing that (a particular implementation of) efficient coding in spiking networks leads to structured connectivity. The fact that this structured connectivity then explains perturbation responses is, in the light of earlier findings, not new.

      We agree that the main contribution of our manuscript in this respect is to show how efficient coding in spiking networks can lead to structured connectivity implementing lateral inhibition similar to that proposed in the recent studies mentioned by the Reviewer. We apologize if this was not clear enough in the previous version. We streamlined the presentation to make it clearer in revision.  We nevertheless think it useful to report the effects of perturbations within this network because these results give information about how lateral inhibition works in our network. Thus, we kept presenting it in the revised version, although we de-emphasized and simplified its presentation. We now give more emphasis to the novelty of the derivation of this connectivity rule from the principles of efficient coding (pages 4 and 6). We also describe better (page 8) what the specific results of our simulated perturbation experiments add to the existing literature.

      (3) The model's limitations are hard to discern, being relegated to the manuscript's last and rather equivocal paragraph. For instance, the lack of recurrent excitation, crucial in neural dynamics and computation, likely influences the results: neuronal time constants must be as large as the target readout (Figure 4), presumably because the network cannot integrate the signal without recurrent excitation. However, this and other results are not presented in tandem with relevant caveats.

      We improved the Limitations paragraph in Discussion, and also anticipated caveats in tandem with results when needed, as suggested. 

      We now mention the assumption of equal time constants between the targets and readouts in the Abstract. 

      We now added the analysis of the network performance and dynamics as a function of the time constant of the target (t<sub>x</sub>) to the Supplementary Fig S5 (C-E). These results are briefly discussed in text on page 13. The only measure sensitive to t<sub>x</sub> is the encoding error of E neurons, with a minimum at t<sub>x</sub> =9 ms, while I neurons and metabolic cost show no dependency. Firing rates, variability of spiking as well as the average and instantaneous balance show no dependency on t<sub>x</sub>. We note that t<sub>x</sub> = t, with t=1/l the time constant of the population readout (Eq. 9), is an assumption we use when we derive the model from the efficiency objective (Eq. 18 to 23). In our new and preliminary work (Koren, Emanuel, Panzeri, Biorxiv 2024), we derived a more general class of models where this assumption is relaxed, which gives a network with E-E connectivity that adapts to the time constant of the stimulus. Thus, the reviewer is correct in the intuition that the network requires E-E connectivity to better integrate target signals with a different time constant than the time constant of the membrane. We now better emphasize this limitation in Discussion (page 16).

      (4) On repeated occasions, results from the model are referred to as predictions claimed to match the data. A prediction is a statement about what will happen in the future – but most of the “predictions” from the model are actually findings that broadly match earlier experimental results, making them “postdictions”.

      This distinction is important: compared to postdictions, predictions are a much stronger test because they are falsifiable. This is especially relevant given (my impression) that key parameters of the model were tweaked to match the data.

      We now comment on every result from the model as either matching earlier experimental results, or being a prediction for experiments. 

      In Section “Assumptions and emergent properties of the efficient E-I network derived from first principles”, we report (page 4) that neural networks have connectivity structure that relates to tuning similarity of neurons (postdiction). 

      In Section “Encoding performance and neural dynamics in an optimally efficient E-I network” we report (page 5) that in a network with optimal parameters, I neurons have higher firing rate than E neurons (postdiction), that single neurons show temporally correlated synaptic currents (postdiction) and that the distribution of firing rates across neurons is log-normal (postdiction). 

      In Section “Competition across neurons with similar stimulus tuning emerging in efficient spiking networks” we report (page 6)  that the activity perturbation of E neurons induces lateral inhibition on other E neurons, and that the strength of lateral inhibition depends on tuning similarity (postdiction). We show that activity perturbation of E neurons induces lateral excitation in I neurons (prediction). We moreover show that the specific effects of the perturbation of neural activity rely on structured E-I-E connectivity (prediction for experiments, but similar result in Sadeh and Clopath, 2020). We show strong voltage correlations but weak spike-timing correlations in our network (prediction for experiments, but similar result in Boerlin et al. 2013). 

      In Section “The effect of structured connectivity on coding efficiency and neural dynamics”, we report (page 7) that our model predicts a number of differences between networks with structured and unstructured (random) connectivity. In particular, structured networks differ from unstructured ones by showing better encoding performance, lower metabolic cost, weaker variance over time in the membrane potential of each neuron, lower firing rates and weaker average and instantaneous balance of synaptic currents.

      In Section “Weak or no spike-triggered adaptation optimizes network efficiency”, we report (page 9) that our model predicts better encoding performance in networks with adaptation compared to facilitation. Our results suggest that adaptation should be stronger in E compared to I (PV+) neurons (postdiction). In the same section, we report (page 10) that our results suggest that the instantaneous balance is a better predictor of model efficiency than average balance (prediction).

      In Section “Non-specific currents regulate network coding properties”, we report (page 10) that our model predicts that more than half of the distance between the resting potential and firing threshold is taken by external currents that are unrelated to feedforward processing (postdiction). We also report (page 11) that our model predicts that moderate levels of uncorrelated (additive) noise is beneficial for efficiency (prediction for experiments, but similar results in Chalk et al., 2016, Koren et al., 2017, Timcheck et al. 2022).

      In Section “Optimal ratio of E-I neuron numbers and of mean I-I to E-I synaptic efficacy coincide with biophysical measurements”, we predict the optimal ratio of E to I neuron numbers to be 4:1 (postdiction) and the optimal ratio of mean I-I to E-I connectivity to be 3:1 (postdiction). Further, we report (page 13) that our results predict that a decrease in the ratio of E-I neuron numbers is accompanied with the decrease in the ratio of mean I-I to E-I connectivity. 

      Finally, in Section “Dependence of efficient coding and neural dynamics on the stimulus statistics”, we report (page 13) that our model predicts that the efficiency of the network has almost no dependence on the time scale of the stimulus (prediction). 

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this work, the authors present a biologically plausible, efficient E-I spiking network model and study various aspects of the model and its relation to experimental observations. This includes a derivation of the network into two (E-I) populations, the study of single-neuron perturbations and lateral-inhibition, the study of the effects of adaptation and metabolic cost, and considerations of optimal parameters. From this, they conclude that their work puts forth a plausible implementation of efficient coding that matches several experimental findings, including feature-specific inhibition, tight instantaneous balance, a 4 to 1 ratio of excitatory to inhibitory neurons, and a 3 to 1 ratio of I-I to E-I connectivity strength. It thus argues that some of these observations may come as a direct consequence of efficient coding.

      Strengths:

      While many network implementations of efficient coding have been developed, such normative models are often abstract and lacking sufficient detail to compare directly to experiments. The intention of this work to produce a more plausible and efficient spiking model and compare it with experimental data is important and necessary in order to test these models.

      In rigorously deriving the model with real physical units, this work maps efficient spiking networks onto other more classical biophysical spiking neuron models. It also attempts to compare the model to recent single-neuron perturbation experiments, as well as some longstanding puzzles about neural circuits, such as the presence of separate excitatory and inhibitory neurons, the ratio of excitatory to inhibitory neurons, and E/I balance. One of the primary goals of this paper, to determine if these are merely biological constraints or come from some normative efficient coding objective, is also important.

      Though several of the observations have been reported and studied before (see below), this work arguably studies them in more depth, which could be useful for comparing more directly to experiments.

      Thanks for these insights and for the kind words of appreciation of the strengths of our work.  

      Weaknesses:

      Though the text of the paper may suggest otherwise, many of the modeling choices and observations found in the paper have been introduced in previous work on efficient spiking models, thereby making this work somewhat repetitive and incremental at times. This includes the derivation of the network into separate excitatory and inhibitory populations, discussion of physical units, comparison of voltage versus spike-timing correlations, and instantaneous E/I balance, all of which can be found in one of the first efficient spiking network papers (Boerlin et al. 2013), as well as in subsequent papers. Metabolic cost and slow adaptation currents were also presented in a previous study (Gutierrez & Deneve 2019). Though it is perfectly fine and reasonable to build upon these previous studies, the language of the text gives them insufficient credit.

      We indeed built our work on these important previous studies, and we apologize if this was not clear enough. We thus improved the text to make sure that credit to previous studies is more precisely and more clearly given (see detailed reply for the list of changes made). 

      To facilitate the understanding on how we built on previous work, we expanded the comparison of our results with the results of Boerlin et al. (2013) about voltage correlations and uncorrelated spiking (page 7), comparison with the derivation of physical units of Boerlin et al. (2013) (page 3), discussion of how results on the ratio of the number of E to I neurons relate  to Calaim et al (2022) and Barrett et al. (2016) (page 16), and comment on the previous work by Gutierrez and Deneve about adaptation (page 8).  

      Furthermore, the paper makes several claims of optimality that are not convincing enough, as they are only verified by a limited parameter sweep of single parameters at a time, are unintuitive and may be in conflict with previous findings of efficient spiking networks. This includes the following. 

      Coding error (RMSE) has a minimum at intermediate metabolic cost (Figure 5B), despite the fact that intuitively, zero metabolic cost would indicate that the network is solely minimizing coding error and that previous work has suggested that additional costs bias the output. 

      Coding error also appears to have a minimum at intermediate values of the ratio of E to I neurons (effectively the number of I neurons) and the number of encoded variables (Figures 6D, 7B). These both have to do with the redundancy in the network (number of neurons for each encoded variable), and previous work suggests that networks can code for arbitrary numbers of variables provided the redundancy is high enough (e.g., Calaim et al. 2022). 

      Lastly, the performance of the E-I variant of the network is shown to be better than that of a single cell type (1CT: Figure 7C, D). Given that the E-I network is performing a similar computation as to the 1CT model but with more neurons (i.e., instead of an E neuron directly providing lateral inhibition to its neighbor, it goes through an interneuron), this is unintuitive and again not supported by previous work. These may be valid emergent properties of the E-I spiking network derived here, but their presentation and description are not sufficient to determine this.

      With regard to the concern that our previous analyses considered optimal parameter sets determined with a sweep of a single parameter at a time, we have addressed this issue in two ways. First, we presented (Figure 6I and 7J and text on pages 11 and 13) results of joint sweeps of variations of pairs of parameters whose joint variations are expected to influence optimality in a way that cannot be understood varying one parameter at a time. These new analyses complement the joint parameter sweep of the time constants of single E and I neurons (t<sub>r</sub><sup>E</sup> and t<sub>r</sub><sup>I</sup>) that has already been presented in Fig. 5A (former Fig. 4A). Second, we conducted, within a reasonable/realistic range of possible variations of each individual parameter, a Monte-Carlo random joint sampling (10000 simulations with 20 trials each) of all 6 model parameters that we explored in the paper. We presented these new results on Fig. 2 and discuss it on pages 5-6. 

      The Reviewer is correct in stating that the error (RMSE) exhibits a counterintuitive minimum as a function of the metabolic constant despite the fact that, intuitively, for vanishing metabolic constant the network is solely minimizing the coding error (Fig. 6B). In our understanding, this counterintuitive finding is due to the presence of noise in the membrane potential dynamics. In the presence of noise, a non-vanishing metabolic constant is needed to suppress “inefficient” spikes purely induced by noise that do not contribute to coding and increase the error. This gives rise to a form of “stochastic resonance”, where the noise improves detection of the signal coming from the feedforward currents. We note that the metabolic constant and the noise variance both appear in the non-specific external current (Eq. 29f in Methods), and, thus, a covariation in their optimal values is expected. Indeed, we find that the optimal metabolic constant monotonically increases as a function of the noise variance, with stronger regularization (larger beta) required to compensate for larger variability (larger sigma) (Fig. 6I). Finally, we note that a moderate level of noise (which, in turn, induces a non-trivial minimum of the coding error as a function of beta) in the network is optimal. The beneficial effect of moderate levels of noise on performance in networks with efficient coding has been shown in different contexts in previous work (Chalk et al. 2016, Koren and Deneve, 2017). The intuition is that the noise prevents the excessive synchronization of the network and insufficient single neuron variability that decrease the performance. The points above are now explained in the revised text on page 11.

      The Reviewer is also correct in stating that the network exhibits an optimal performance for intermediate values of the number of I neurons and the number of encoded features. In our understanding, the optimal number of encoded features of M=3 arises simply because all the other parameters were optimized for those values of M. The purpose of those analyses was not to state that a network optimally encodes only a given number of features, but how a network whose parameters are optimized for a given M perform reasonably well when M is varied. We clarify this on page 13 of Results in Discussion on page 16. In the same Discussion paragraph we refer also to the results of Calaim et al mentioned by the Reviewer. 

      To address the concern about the comparison of efficiency between the E-I and the 1CT model, we took advantage of the Reviewer’s suggestions to consider this issue more deeply. In revision, we now compare the efficiency of the 1CT model with the E population of the E-I model (Fig. 8H). This new comparison changes the conclusion about which model is more efficient, as it shows the 1CT model is slightly more efficient than the E-I model. Nevertheless, the E-I model performance is more robust to small variations of optimal parameters, e.g., it exhibits biologically plausible firing rates for non-optimal values of the metabolic constant. See also the reply to point 3 of the Public Review of Reviewer 2 for more detail. We added these results and the ensuing caveats for the interpretation of this comparison on Page 14, and also revised the title of the last subsection of Results.  

      Alternatively, the methodology of the model suggests that ad hoc modeling choices may be playing a role. For example, an arbitrary weighting of coding error and metabolic cost of 0.7 to 0.3, respectively, is chosen without mention of how this affects the results. Furthermore, the scaling of synaptic weights appears to be controlled separately for each connection type in the network (Table 1), despite the fact that some of these quantities are likely linked in the optimal network derivation. Finally, the optimal threshold and metabolic constants are an order of magnitude larger than the synaptic weights (Table 1). All of these considerations suggest one of the following two possibilities. One, the model has a substantial number of unconstrained parameters to tune, in which case more parameter sweeps would be necessary to definitively make claims of optimality. Or two, parameters are being decoupled from those constrained by the optimal derivation, and the optima simply corresponds to the values that should come out of the derivation.

      We thank the reviewer for bringing about these important questions.

      In the first submission, we presented both the encoding error and the metabolic cost separately as a function of the parameters, so that readers could get an understanding of how stable optimal parameters would be to the change of the relative weighting of encoding error and metabolic cost. We specified this in Results (page 5) and we kept presenting separately encoding and metabolic terms in the revision.

      However, we agree that it is important to present the explicit quantification on how the optimal parameters may depend on g<sub>L</sub>. In the first submission, we showed the analysis for all possible weightings in case of two parameters for which we found this analysis was the most relevant – the ratio of neuron numbers (Fig. 7E, Fig. 6E in first submission) and the optimal number of input features M (see last paragraph on page 13 and Fig. 8D). We now show this analysis also for the rest of studied model parameters in the Supplementary Fig. S4 (A-D and H). This is discussed on pages 9, 10,11 and 12.

      With regard to the concern that the scaling of synaptic weights should not be controlled separately for each connection type in the network, we agree and we would like to clarify that we did not control such scaling separately. Apologies if this was not clear enough. From the optimal analytical solution, we obtained that the connectivity scales with the standard deviation of decoding weights (s<sub>w</sub><sup>E</sup> and s<sub>w</sub><sup>I</sup>) of the pre and postsynaptic populations (Methods, Eq. 32). We studied the network properties as a function of the ratio of average I-I to E-I connectivity (Fig. 7 F-I; Supplementary Fig. S4 D-H), which is equivalent to the ratio of standard deviations s<sub>w</sub><sup>I</sup> /s<sub>w</sub><sup>E</sup> (see Methods, Eq. 35). We clarified this in text on page 12.

      Next, it is correct that our synaptic weights are an order of magnitude smaller than the metabolic constant. We analysed a simpler version of the network that has the coding and dynamics identical to our full model (Methods, Eq. 25) but without the external currents. We found that the optimal parameters determining the firing threshold in such a simpler network were biologically implausible (see Supplementary Text 2 and Supplementary Table S1). We considered as another simple solution the rescaling of the synaptic efficacy such as to have biologically plausible threshold. However, that gave implausible mean synaptic efficacy (see Supplementary Text 2).  Thus, to be able to define a network with biologically plausible firing threshold and mean synaptic efficacy, we introduced the non-specific external current. After introducing such current, we were able to shift the firing threshold to biologically plausible values while keeping realistic values of mean synaptic efficacy. Biologically plausible values for the firing threshold are around 15 -– 20 mV above the resting potential (Constantinople and Bruno, 2013), which is the value that we have in our model. A plausible value for the average synaptic strength is between a fraction of one millivolt to a couple of millivolts (Constantinople & Bruno, 2013, Campagnola et al. 2022), which also corresponds to values that the synaptic weights take. The above results are briefly explained in the revised text on page 4.

      Finally, to study the optimality of the network when changing multiple parameters at a time, we added a new analysis with Monte-Carlo random joint sampling (10.000 parameter sets with 20 trials for each set) of all 6 model parameters that we explored in the paper. We compared (Fig 2) the so-obtained results of each simulation with those obtained from the understanding gained from varying one or two parameters at a time (optimal parameters reported in Table 1 and used throughout the paper).  We found (Fig. 2) that the optimal configuration in Table 1 was never improved by any other simulations we performed, and that the first three random simulations that came the closest to the optimal one of Table 1 had stronger noise intensity but also stronger metabolic cost than the configuration on Table 1. The second, third and fourth configurations had longer time constants of both E and I single neurons (adaptation time constants). Ratio of E-I neuron numbers and of I-I to E-I connectivity in the second, third and fourth best configuration were either jointly increased or decreased with respect to our configuration. These results are reported on Fig. 2 and in Tables 2-3 and they are discussed in Results (page 5).

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In their paper the authors tackle three things at once in a theoretical model: how can spiking neural networks perform efficient coding, how can such networks limit the energy use at the same time, and how can this be done in a more biologically realistic way than previous work?

      They start by working from a long-running theory on how networks operating in a precisely balanced state can perform efficient coding. First, they assume split networks of excitatory (E) and inhibitory (I) neurons. The E neurons have the task to represent some lower dimensional input signal, and the I neurons have the task to represent the signal represented by the E neurons. Additionally, the E and I populations should minimize an energy cost represented by the sum of all spikes. All this results in two loss functions for the E and I populations, and the networks are then derived by assuming E and I neurons should only spike if this improves their respective loss. This results in networks of spiking neurons that live in a balanced state, and can accurately represent the network inputs.

      They then investigate in-depth different aspects of the resulting networks, such as responses to perturbations, the effect of following Dale's law, spiking statistics, the excitation (E)/inhibition (I) balance, optimal E/I cell ratios, and others. Overall, they expand on previous work by taking a more biological angle on the theory and showing the networks can operate in a biologically realistic regime.

      Strengths:

      (1) The authors take a much more biological angle on the efficient spiking networks theory than previous work, which is an essential contribution to the field.

      (2) They make a very extensive investigation of many aspects of the network in this context, and do so thoroughly.

      (3) They put sensible constraints on their networks, while still maintaining the good properties these networks should have.

      Thanks for this summary and for these kind words of appreciation of the strengths of our work.  

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The paper has somewhat overstated the significance of their theoretical contributions, and should make much clearer what aspects of the derivations are novel. Large parts were done in very similar ways in previous papers. Specifically: the split into E and I neurons was also done in Boerlin et al (2008) and in Barrett et al (2016). Defining the networks in terms of realistic units was already done by Boerlin et al (2008). It would also be worth it to discuss Barrett et al (2016) specifically more, as there they also use split E/I networks and perform biologically relevant experiments.

      We improved the text to make sure that credit to previous studies is more precisely and more clearly given (see rebuttal to the specific suggestions of Reviewer 2 for a full list).

      We apologize if this was not clear enough in the previous version. 

      With regard to the specific point raised here about the E-I split, we revised the text on page 2. With regard to the realistic units, we revised the text on page 3. Finally, we commented on relation between our results and results of the study by Barrett et al. (2016) on page 16.

      (2) It is not clear from an optimization perspective why the split into E and I neurons and following Dale's law would be beneficial. While the constraints of Dale's law are sensible (splitting the population in E and I neurons, and removing any non-Dalian connection), they are imposed from biology and not from any coding principles. A discussion of how this could be done would be much appreciated, and in the main text, this should be made clear.

      We indeed removed non-Dalian connections because Dale’s law is a major constraint for biological plausibility. Our logic was to consider efficient coding within the space of networks that satisfy this (and other) biological plausibility constraints. We did not intend to claim that removing the non-Dalian connections was the result of an analytical optimization. We clarified this in revision (page 4).

      (3) Related to the previous point, the claim that the network with split E and I neurons has a lower average loss than a 1 cell-type (1-CT) network seems incorrect to me. Only the E population coding error should be compared to the 1-CT network loss, or the sum of the E and I populations (not their average). In my author recommendations, I go more in-depth on this point.

      We carefully considered these possibilities and decided to compare only the E population of the E-I model with the 1-CT model. On Fig.8G (7C of the first submission), E neurons have a slightly higher error and cost compared to the 1CT network. In the revision, we compared the loss of E neurons of the E-I model with the loss of the 1-CT model. Using such comparison, we found that the 1CT network has lower loss and is more efficient compared to E neurons of the E-I model. We revised Figure 8H and text on page 14 to address this point. 

      (4) While the paper is supposed to bring the balanced spiking networks they consider in a more experimentally relevant context, for experimental audiences I don't think it is easy to follow how the model works, and I recommend reworking both the main text and methods to improve on that aspect.

      We tried to make the presentation of the model more accessible to a non-computational audience in the revised paper. We carefully edited the text throughout to make it as accessible as possible. 

      Assessment and context:

      Overall, although much of the underlying theory is not necessarily new, the work provides an important addition to the field. The authors succeeded well in their goal of making the networks more biologically realistic, and incorporating aspects of energy efficiency. For computational neuroscientists, this paper is a good example of how to build models that link well to experimental knowledge and constraints, while still being computationally and mathematically tractable. For experimental readers, the model provides a clearer link between efficient coding spiking networks to known experimental constraints and provides a few predictions.

      Thanks for these kind words. We revised the paper to make sure that these points emerge more clearly and in a more accessible way from the revised paper.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Referring to the major comments:

      (1) Be upfront about particular modelling choices and why you made them; avoid talk of a "striking/surprising", etc. ability to explain data when this actually requires otherwise-arbitrary choices and auxiliary assumptions. Ideally, this nuance is already clear from the abstract.

      We removed all the "striking/surprising" and similar expressions from the text. 

      We added to the Abstract the assumption of equal time constants of the stimulus and of the membrane of E and I neurons and the assumption of the independence of encoded stimulus features.

      In revision, we performed additional analyses (joint parameter sweeps, Monte-Carlo joint sampling of all 6 model parameters) providing additional evidence that the network parameters in Table 1 capture reasonably well the optimal solution. These are reported on Figs. 2, 6I and 7J and in Results (pages 5, 11 and 13). See rebuttal to weaknesses of the public review of the Referee 2 for details.

      (2) Make even more of an effort to acknowledge prior work on the importance of structured E-I and I-E connectivity.

      We have revised the text (page 4) to better place our results within previous work on structured E-I and I-E connectivity.

      (3) Be clear about the model's limitations and mention them throughout the text. This will allow readers to interpret your results appropriately.

      We now comment more on model's limitations, in particular the simplifying assumption about the network's computation (page 16), the lack of E-E connectivity (page 3), the absence of long-term adaptation (page 10), and the simplification of only having one type of inhibitory neurons (page 16). 

      (4) Present your "predictions" for what they are: aspects of the model that can be made consistent with the existing data after some fitting. Except in the few cases where you make actual predictions, which deserve to be highlighted.

      We followed the suggestion of the reviewer and distinguished cases where the model is consistent with the data (postdictions) from actual predictions, where empirical measurements are not available or not conclusive. We compiled a list of predictions and postdictions in response to the point 4 of Reviewer 1. In revision, we now comment about every property of the model as either reproducing a known property of biological networks (postdiction) or being a prediction. We improved the text in Results on pages 4, 5, 6, 7, 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13 to accommodate these requests.

      Minor comments and recommendations

      It's a sizable list, but most can be addressed with some text edits.

      (1) The image captions should give more details about the simulations and analyses, particularly regarding sample sizes and statistical tests. In Figure 5, for example, it is unclear if the lines represent averages over multiple signals and, if so, how many. It's probably not a single realization, but if it is, this might explain the otherwise puzzling optimal number of three stimuli. Box plots visualize the distribution across simulation trials, but it's not clear how many. In Figure 7d, a star suggests statistical significance, but the caption does not mention the test or its results; the y-axis should also have larger limits.

      All statistical results were computed on 100 or 200 simulation trials, depending on the figure, with duration of the trial of 1 second of simulated time. To compute statistical results in Fig. 1, we used 10 trials with duration of 10 seconds for each trial. Each trial consisted of M independent realizations of Ornstein-Uhlenbeck (OU) processes as stimuli, independent noise in the membrane potential and an independent draw of tuning parameters, such that the results are general over specific realization of these random variables. Realizations of the OU processes were independent across stimulus dimensions and across trials. We added this information in the caption of each figure. 

      The optimal number of M=3 stimuli is the result of measuring the performance of the network in 100 simulation trials (for each parameter value), thus following the same procedure as for all other parameters. Boxplots on Fig. 8G-H were also generated from results computed in 100 simulation trials, which we have now specified in the caption of the figure, together with the statistical test used for assessing the significance (twotailed t-test). We also enlarged the limits of Fig. 8H (7D in the previous version).

      (2) The Oldenburg paper (reference 62) finds suppression of all but nearby neurons in response to two- photon stimulation of small neural ensembles (instead of single neurons, as in Chettih & Harvey). This isn't perfectly consistent with the model's results, even though the Oldenburg experiments seem more relevant given the model's small size, and strong connectivity/high connection probability between similarly tuned neurons. What might explain the potential mismatch?

      We sincerely apologize for not having been precise enough on this point when comparing our model against Chettih & Harvey and Oldenburg et al. We corrected the sentence (page 6) to remove the claim that our model reproduces both. 

      We speculate that the discrepancy between perturbing our model and the Oldenburg data may arise from the lack of E-E connectivity in our model. Synaptic connections between E neurons with similar selectivity could create an enhancement instead of suppression between neuronal pairs with very similar tuning. We added a sentence about this in the section with perturbation experiments “Competition across neurons with similar stimulus tuning emerging in efficient spiking networks” (page 7) where we discuss this limitation of our model. We feel that this example shows the utility to derive some perturbation results from our model, as not all networks with some degree of lateral inhibition will show the same perturbation results. Comparing our model's perturbation with real data perturbation results has thus some value to better appreciate strengths and limitations of our approach. 

      (3) "Previous studies optogenetically stimulated E neurons but did not determine whether the recorded neurons were excitatory or inhibitory " (p. 11). I believe Oldenburg et al. did specifically image excitatory neurons.

      The reviewer is correct about Oldenburg et al. imaging specifically excitatory neurons. We have revised this part of the Discussion (page 15). 

      (4) The authors write that efficiency is particularly achieved where adaptation is stronger in E compared to I neurons (p. 7; Figure 4). Although this would be consistent with experimental data (the I neurons in the model seem akin to fast-spiking Pv+ cells), I struggle to see it in the figure. Instead, it seems like there are roughly two regimes. If either of the neuronal timescales is faster than the stimulus timescale, the optimisation fails. If both are at least as slow, optimisation succeeds.

      We agree with the reviewer that the adaptation properties of our inhibitory neurons are compatible with Pv+ cells. What is essential for determining the dynamical regime of the network is less the relation to the time constant of the stimulus (t<sub>x</sub>) but rather the relation between the time constant of the population readout (t, which is also the membrane time constant) and the time constant of the single neuron (t<sub>r</sub><sup>y</sup> for y=E and y=I; see Eq. 23, 25 or 29e). The relation between t and t<sub>r</sub><sup>y</sup> determines if single neurons generate spike-triggered adaptation (t<sub>r</sub><sup>y</sup> > t) or spike-triggered facilitation (t<sub>r</sub><sup>y</sup> < t; see Table 4). In regimes with facilitation in either E or I neurons (or both), the network performance strongly deteriorates compared to regimes with adaptation (Fig. 5A). 

      Beyond adaptation leading to better performance, we also found different effects of adaptation in E and I neurons. We acknowledge that the difference of these effects was difficult to see from the Fig. 4B in the first submission. We have now replotted results from previously shown Fig. 4B to focus on the adaptation regime only, (since the Fig. 5A already establishes that this is the regime with better performance). We also added figures showing the differential effect of adaptation in E and I cell type on the firing rate and on the average loss (Fig. 5C-D). Fig. 5B and C (top plots) show that with adaptation in E neurons, the error and the loss increase more slowly than with adaptation in I neurons. Moreover, the firing rate in both cell types decreases with adaptation in E neurons, while this is not the case with adaptation in I neurons (Fig. 5D). These results are added to the figure panels specified above and discussed in text on page 9.

      To clarify the relation between neuronal and stimulus timescale, we now also added the analysis of network performance as a function of the time constant of the stimulus t<sub>x</sub> (Supplementary Fig. S5 C-E). We found that the model's performance is optimal when the time constant of the stimulus is close to the membrane time constant t. This result is expected, because the equality of these time constants was imposed in our analytical derivation of the model (t<sub>x</sub>  = t). We see a similar decrease in performance for values of t<sub>x</sub>  that are faster and slower with respect to the membrane time constant (Supplementary Fig. S5C, top). These results are added to the figure panels specified above and discussed in text on page 13.

      (5) A key functional property of cortical interneurons is their lower stimulus selectivity. Does the model replicate this feature?

      We think that whether I neurons are less selective than E neurons is still an open question. A number of recent empirical studies reported that the selectivity of I neurons is comparable to the selectivity of E neurons (see., e.g., Kuan et al. Nature 2024, Runyan et al. Neuron 2010, Najafi et al. Neuron 2020). In our model, the optimal solution prescribes a precise structure in recurrent connectivity (see Eq. 24 and Fig. 1C(ii)) and structured connectivity endows I neurons with stimulus selectivity. To show this, we added plots of example tuning curves and the distribution of the selectivity index across E and I neurons (Fig. 8E-F) and described these new results in Results (page 14). Tuning curves in our network were similar to those computed in a previous work that addressed stimulus tuning in efficient spiking networks (Barrett et al. 2016). We evaluated tuning curves using M=3 constant stimulus features and we varied one of the features while the two others were kept fixed. We provided details on how the tuning curves and the selectivity index were computed in a new Methods subsection (“Tuning curves and selectivity index”) on page 50.

      (6) The final panels of Figure 4 are presented as an approach to test the efficiency of biological networks. The authors seem to measure the instantaneous (and time-averaged) E-I balance while varying the adaptation parameter and then correlate this with the loss. If that is indeed the approach (it's difficult to tell), this doesn't seem to suggest a tractable experiment. Also, the conclusion is somewhat obvious: the tighter the single neuron balance, the fewer unnecessary spikes are fired. I recommend that the authors clearly explain their analysis and how they envision its application to biological data.

      We indeed measured the instantaneous (and time-averaged) E-I balance while varying the adaptation parameters and then correlating this with the loss. We did not want to imply that the latter panels of Figure 4 are a means to test the efficiency or biological networks or that we are suggesting new and possibly unfeasible experiments. We see it as a way to better conceptually understand how spike triggered adaptation helps the network’s coding efficiency, by tightening the E I balance in a way that it reduces the number of unnecessary spikes. We apologize if the previous text was confusing in this respect.   We have now removed the initial paragraph of former Results Subsection (including removing the subsection title) and added new text about different effect of adaptation in E and I neurons on Page 9. We also thoroughly revised Figure 5.

      (7) The external stimuli are repeatedly said to vary (or be tracked) across "multiple time scales", which might inadvertently be interpreted as (i) a single stimulus containing multiple timescales or (ii) simultaneously presented stimuli containing different timescales. These scenarios are potential targets for efficient coding through neuronal adaptation (reference 21 in the manuscript and Pozzorini et al. Nat. Neuro. 2013), but they are not addressed in the current model. I recommend the authors clarify their statements regarding timescales (and if they're up for it, acknowledge this as a limitation).

      We thank the reviewer for bringing up this interesting point. To address the second point raised by the Reviewer (simultaneously presented stimuli containing multiple timescales), we performed new analyses to test the model with simultaneously presented stimuli that have different timescales. We found that the model encodes efficiently such stimuli.  We tested the case with a 3-dimensional stimulus where each dimension is an Ornstein-Uhlenbeck process with a different time constant. More precisely, we kept the time constant in the first dimension fixed (at 10 ms), and varied the time constant in the second and third dimension such that the time constant in the third dimension is doubled with respect to the second dimension. We plotted the encoding error in every stimulus dimension for E and I neurons (Fig. 8B, left plot) as well as the encoding error and the metabolic cost averaged across stimulus dimensions (Fig. 8B, right plot). The results are briefly described with text on page 13.

      Regarding the case i) (single stimulus containing multiple timescales), we considered two possibilities. One possibility is that timescales of the stimulus are separable, and in this case a single stimulus containing several time scales can be decomposed in several stimuli with a single time scale each. As we assign a new set of weights for each dimension of the decomposed stimulus, this case is similar to the case ii) that we already addressed. Another possibility is that timescales of the stimulus cannot be separated. This case is not covered in the present analysis and we listed it among the limitations of the model. We revised the text (page 13) around the question of multiple time scales and included the citation of Pozzorini et al. (2013). 

      (8) It is claimed that the model uses a mixed code to represent signals, citing reference 47 (Rigotti et al., Nature 2013). But whereas the model seems to use linear mixed selectivity, the Rigotti reference highlights the virtues of nonlinear mixed selectivity. In my understanding, a linearly mixed code does not enjoy the same benefits since it’s mathematically equivalent to a non-mixed code (simply rotate the readout matrix). I recommend that the authors clarify the type of selectivity used by their model and how it relates to the paper(s) they cite.

      The reviewer is correct that our selectivity is a linear mixing of input variables, and differs from the selectivity in Rigotti et al. (2013) which is non-linear. We revised the sentence on page 4 to clarify better that the mixed selectivity we consider is linear and we removed Rigotti’s citation. 

      (9) Reference 46 is cited as evidence that leaky integration of sensory features is a relevant computation for sensory areas. I don’t think this is quite what the reference shows. Instead, it finds certain morphological and electrophysiological differences between single pyramidal neurons in the primary visual cortex compared to the prefrontal cortex. Reference 46’ then goes on to speculate that these are differences relevant to sensory computation. This may seem like a quibble, but given the centrality of the objectivee function in normative theories, I think it's important to clarify why a particular objective is chosen.

      We agree that our reference of Amatrudo et al was not the best reference and that the previous text was confusing. We thus tried to improve on its clarity. We looked at the previous theoretical efficient coding papers introducing this leaky integration and we could not find in the previous theoretical work a justification of this assumption based on experimental papers. However, there is evidence that neurons in sensory structures, and in cortical association areas respond to time varying sensory evidence by summing stimuli over time with a weight that decreases steadily going back in time from the time of firing, which suggests that neurons integrate time-varying sensory features. In many cases, these integration kernels decay approximately exponentially going back in time, and several models explaining successfully perceptual readouts of neural activity work assuming leaky integration. This suggests that the mathematical approximation of leaky integration of sensory evidence, though possibly simplistic, is reasonable.  We revised the text in this respect (page 2).  

      (10) The definition of the objective function uses beta as a tuning parameter, but later parts of the text and figures refer to a parameter g_L which might only be introduced in the convex combination of Eq. 40a.

      This is correct. Parameter optimization has been performed on a weighted sum of the average encoding error and cost as given by the Eq. 39a (40a in first submission), with the weighting g<sub>L</sub> for the error versus the cost, and not the beta that is part of the objective in Eq.10. The convex combination in Eq. 39a allowed us to find a set of optimal parameters that is within biologically realistic parameter ranges, which includes realistic values for the firing threshold. The average encoding error and metabolic cost (the two terms on the right-hand side of Eq. 39a, without weighting with g<sub>L</sub>) in our network are of the same order (see Fig 8G for the E-I model where these values are plotted separately for the optimal network). Weighing the cost with optimal beta that is in the range of ~10 would have yielded a network that optimizes almost exclusively the metabolic cost and would bias the results towards solutions with poor encoding accuracy.

      To document more fully how the choice of weighting of the error with the cost (g<sub>L</sub>) affects the optimal parameters, we now added new analysis (Fig. 8D and Supplementary Fig. S4 A-D and H) showing optimal parameters as a function of this weighting. We commented on these results in the text on pages 9-11 and 12. For further details, please see also the reply to point 1 or Reviewer 1.

      (11) Figure 1J: "In E neurons, the distribution of inhibitory and of net synaptic inputs overlap". In my understanding, they are in fact identical, and this is by construction. It might help the reader to state this.

      We apologize for an unclear statement. In E neurons, net synaptic current is the sum of the feedforward current and of recurrent inhibition (Eq. 29c and Eq. 42). With our choice of tuning parameters that are symmetric around zero and with stimulus features that have vanishing mean, the mean of the feedforward current is close to zero. Because of this, the mean of the net current is negative and is close to the mean of the inhibitory current. We have clarified this in the text (page 5).

      (12) A few typos:

      -  p1. "Minimizes the encoding accuracy" should be "maximizes..."

      -  p1: "as well the progress" should be something like "as well as the progress"

      -  p.11 In recorded neurons where excitatory or inhibitory. ", "where" should be "were" - Fig3: missing parentheses (B)

      -  Fig4B: the 200 ticks on the y-scale are cut off.

      -  Panel Fig. 5a: "stimulus" should be "stimuli".

      -  Ref 24 "Efficient andadaptive sensory codes" is missing a space.

      -  p. 26: "requires" should be "required".

      -  On several occasions, the article "the" is missing.

      We thank the reviewer for kindly pointing out the typos that we now corrected.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I would like to give the authors more details about the two main weaknesses discussed above, so that they may address specific points in the paper. First, there is the relation to previous work. Several published articles have presented very similar results to those discussed here, including references 5, 26, 28, 32, 33, 42, 43, 48, and an additional reference not cited by the authors (Calaim et al. 2022 eLife e73276). This includes:

      (1) Derivation of an E-I efficient spiking network, which is found in refs. 28, 42, 43, and 48. This is not reflected in the text: e.g., "These previous implementations, however, had neurons that did not respect Dale's law" (Introduction, pg. 1); "Unlike previous approaches (28, 48), we hypothesize that E and I neurons have distinct normative objectives...". The authors should discuss how their derivation compares to these.

      We have now fully clarified on page 3 that our model builds on the seminal previous works that introduced E-I networks with efficient coding (Supplementary text in Boerlin et al. 2013, Chalk et al. 2016, Barrett et al. 2016). 

      (2) Inclusion of a slow adaptation current: I believe this also appears in a previous paper (Gutierrez & Deneve 2019, ref. 33) in almost the exact same form, and is again not reflected in the text: "The strength of the current is proportional to the difference in inverse time constants ... and is thus absent in previous studies assuming that these time constants are equal (... ref. 33). Again, the authors should compare their derivation to this previous work.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. We sincerely apologize if our previous version did not recognize sufficiently clearly that the previous work of Gutierrez and Deneve (eLife 2019; ref 33) introduced first the slow adaptation current that is similar to spike-triggered adaptation in our model. We have made sure that the revised text recognizes it more clearly. We also explained better what we changed or added with respect to this previous work (see revised text on page 8). 

      The work by Gutierrez and Deneve (2019) emphasizes the interplay between single neuron property (an adapting current in single neurons) and network property (networklevel coding through structured recurrent connections). They use a network that does not distinguish E and I neurons. Our contribution instead focuses on the adaptation in an E-I network. To improve the presentation following the Reviewer’s comment, we now better emphasize the differential effect of adaptation in E and in I neurons in revision (Fig. 5 B-D). Moreover, Gutierrez and Deneve studied the effect of adaptation on slower time scales (1 or 2 seconds) while we study the adaptation on a finer time scale of tens of milliseconds. The revised text detailed this is reported on Page 8.

      (3) Background currents and physical units: Pg. 26: "these models did not contain any synaptic current unrelated to feedforward and recurrent processing" and "Moreover previous models on efficient coding did not thoroughly consider physical units of variables" - this was briefly described in ref. 28 (Boerlin et al. 2013), in which the voltage and threshold are transformed by adding a common constant, and additional aspects of physical units are discussed.

      It is correct that Boerlin et al (2013) suggested adding a common constant to introduce physical units. We now revised the text to make clearer the relation between our results and the results of Boerlin et al. (2013) (page 3). In our paper, we built on Boerlin et al. (2013) and assigned physical units to computational variables that define the model's objective (the targets, the estimates, the metabolic constant, etc.). We assigned units to computational variables in such a way that physical variables (such as membrane potential, transmembrane currents, firing thresholds and resets) have the correct physical units.  We have now clarified how we derived physical units in the section of Results where we introduce the biophysical model (page 3) and specified how this derivation relates to the results in Boerlin et al. (2013).

      (4) Voltage correlations, spike correlations, and instantaneous E/I balance: this was already pointed out in Boerlin et al. 2013 (ref 28; from that paper: "Despite these strong correlations of the membrane potentials, the neurons fire rarely and asynchronously") and others including ref. 32. The authors mention this briefly in the Discussion, but it should be more prominent that this work presents a more thorough study of this well-known characteristic of the network.

      We agree that it would be important to comment on how our results relate to these results in Boerlin et al. (2013). It is correct that in Boerlin et al. (2013) neurons have strong correlations in the membrane potentials, but fire asynchronously, similarly to what we observe in our model. However, asynchronous dynamics in Boerlin et al. (2013) strongly depends on the assumption of instantaneous synaptic transmission and time discretization, with a “one spike per time bin” rule in numerical implementation. This rule enforces that at most one spike is fired in each time bin, thus actively preventing any synchronization across neurons. If this rule is removed, their network synchronizes, unless the metabolic constant is strong enough to control such synchronization to bring it back to asynchronous regime (see ref. 36). Our implementation does not contain any specific rule that would prevent synchronization across neurons. We now cite the paper by Boerlin and colleagues and briefly summarize this discussion when we describe the result of Fig. 3D on page 7. 

      (5) Perturbations and parameters sweep: I found one previous paper on efficient spiking networks (Calaim et al. 2022) which the authors did not cite, but appears to be highly relevant to the work presented here. Though the authors perform different perturbations from this previous study, they should ideally discuss how their findings relate to this one. Furthermore, this previous study performs extensive sweeps over various network parameters, which the authors might discuss here, when relevant. For example, on pg. 8, the authors write “We predict that, if number of neurons within the population decreases, neurons have to fire more spikes to achieve an optimal population readout” – this was already shown in Calaim et al. 2022 Figure 5, and the authors should mention if their results are consistent.

      We apologize for not being aware of Calaim et al. (2022) when we submitted the first version of our paper. This important study is now cited in the revised version. We have now, as suggested, performed sweeps of multiple parameters inspired by the work of Calaim. This new analysis is described extensively in reply to Weaknesses in the Public Review of reviewer 2 and is found in Fig 2, 6I and 7J and described on pages 5,11 and 13.

      The Reviewer is also correct that the compensation mechanism that applies when changing the ratio of E-I neuron numbers is similar to the one described in Barrett et al. (2016) and related to our claim “if number of neurons within the population decreases, neurons have to fire more spikes to achieve an optimal population readout”. We have now added (page 11) that this prediction is consistent with the finding of Barrett et al. (2016).

      With regard to the dependence of optimal coding properties on the number of neurons, we have tried to better describe similarities and differences with our work and that of Calaim et al as well as with the work of Barrett et al. (2016) which reports highly relevant results. These additional considerations are summarized in a paragraph in Discussion (page 16).

      (6) Overall, the authors should distinguish which of their results are novel, which ones are consistent with previous work on efficient spiking networks, and which ones are consistent in general with network implementations of efficient and sparse coding. In many of the above cases, this manuscript goes into much more depth and study of each of the network characteristics, which is interesting and commendable, but this should be made clear. In clarifying the points listed above, I hope that the authors can better contextualize their work in relation to previous studies, and highlight what are the unique characteristics of the model presented here.

      We made a number of clarifications of the text to provide better contextualization of our model within existing literature and to credit more precisely previous publications. This includes commenting on previous studies that introduced separate objective functions of E and I neurons (page 2), spike-triggered adaptation (page 8), physical units (page 3), and changes in the number of neurons in the network (page 16). 

      Next, there are the claims of optimal parameters. As explained on pg. 35 (criterion for determining optimal model parameters), it appears to me that they simply vary each parameter one at a time around the optimal value. This argument appears somewhat circular, as they would need to know the optimal parameters before starting this sweep. In general, I find these optimality considerations to be the most interesting and novel part of the paper, but the simulations are relatively limited, so I would ask the authors to either back them up with more extensive parameter sweeps that consider covariations in different parameters simultaneously (as in Calaim et al. 2022). Furthermore, the authors should make sure that they are not breaking any of the required relationships between parameters necessary for the optimization of the loss function. Again, some of the results (such as coding error not being minimized with zero metabolic cost) suggests that there might be issues here. 

      We thank the reviewer for this insightful suggestion. We have now added a joint sweep of all relevant model parameters using Monte-Carlo parameter search with 10.000 iterations. We randomly drew parameter configurations from predetermined parameter ranges that are detailed in the newly added Table 2. Parameters were sampled from a uniform distribution. We varied all the six model parameters studied in the paper (metabolic constant, noise intensity, time constant of single E and I neurons, ratio of E to I neurons and ratio of the mean I-I to E-I connectivity).  We now present these results on a new Figure 2. We did not find any set of parameters with lower loss than the parameters in Table 1 when the weighting of the error with the cost was in the following range: 0.4<g<sub>L</sub><0.81 (Fig. 2C). While our large but finite Monte-Carlo random sampling does not fully prove that the configuration we selected as optimal (on Table 1) is a global optimum, it shows that this configuration is highly efficient. Further, and as detailed in the rebuttal to the Weaknesses of the Public Review of Referee 2, analyses of the near optimal solutions are compatible with the notion (resulting from the join parameter sweep studies that we added to Figures 6 and 7) that network optimality may be influenced by joint covariations in parameters. These new results are reported in Results (page 5, 11 and 13) and in Figure 2, 6I an 7J.

      Some more specific points:

      (1) In general, I find it difficult to understand the scaling of the RMSE, cost, and loss values in Figures 4-7. Why are RMSE values in the range of 1-10, whereas loss and cost values are in the range of 0-1? Perhaps the authors can explicitly write the values of the RMSE and loss for the simulation in Figure 1G as a reference point.

      Encoding error (RMSE), metabolic cost (MC) and average loss for a well performing network are within the range of 1-10 (see Fig. 8G or 7C in the first submission). To ease the visualization of results, we normalized the cost and the loss on Figs. 6-8 in order to plot them on the same figure (while the computation of the optima is done following the Eq. 39 and is without normalization). We have now explicitly written the values of RMSE, MC and the average loss (non-normalized) for the simulation in Fig. 1D on page 5, as suggested by the reviewer. We have also revised Fig. 4 and now show the absolute and not the relative values of the RMSE and the MC (metabolic cost). 

      (2) Optimal E-I neuron ratio of 4:1 and efficacy ratio of 3:1: besides being unintuitive in relation to previous work, are these two optimal settings related to one another? If there are 4x more excitatory neurons than inhibitory neurons, won't this affect the efficacy ratio of the weights of the two populations? What happens if these two parameters are varied together?

      Thanks for this insightful point. Indeed, the optima of these two parameters are interdependent and positively correlated - if we decrease the E-I neuron ratio, the optimal efficacy ratio decreases as well. To better show this relation we added figures with 2dimensional parameter search (Fig. 7J) where we varied jointly the two ratios. The red cross on the right figure marks the optimal ratios used as optimal parameters in our study. These finding are discussed on page 13.

      (3) Optimal dimensionality of M=[1,4]: Again, previous work (Calaim et al. 2022) would suggest that efficient spiking networks can code for arbitrary dimensional signals, but that performance depends on the redundancy in the network - the more neurons, the better the coding. From this, I don't understand how or why the authors find a minimum in Figure 7B. Why does coding performance get worse for small M?

      We optimized all model parameters with M=3 and this is the reason why M=3 is the optimal number of inputs when we vary this parameter. Our network shows a distinct minimum of the encoding error as a function of the stimulus dimensionality for both E and I neurons (Fig. 8C, top). This minimum is reflected in the minimum of the average loss (Fig. 8C, bottom). The minimum of the loss is shifted (or biased) by the metabolic cost, with strong weighting of the cost lowering the optimal number of inputs. This is discussed on pages 13-14.

      Here are a list of other, more minor points, that the authors can consider addressing to make the results and text more clear:

      (1) Feedforward efficient coding models: in the introduction (pg. 1) and discussion (pg. 11) it is mentioned that early efficient coding models, such as that of Olshausen & Field 96, were purely feedforward, which I believe to be untrue (e.g., see Eq. 2 of O&F 96). Later models made this even more explicit (Rozell et al. 2008). Perhaps the authors can either clarify what they meant by this, or downplay this point.

      We sincerely apologize for the oversight present in the previous version of the text. We agree with the reviewer that the model in Olshausen and Field (1996) indeed defines a network with recurrent connections, and the same type of recurrent connectivity has been used by Rozell et al. (2008, 2013). The structure of the connectivity in Olshausen and Field (as well as in Rozell et al (2008)) is closely related to the structure of connectivity that we derived in our model. We have corrected the text in the introduction (page 1) to remove these errors.

      (2) Pg. 2 - The authors state: "We draw tuning parameters from a normal distribution...", but in the methods, it states that these are then normalized across neurons, so perhaps the authors could add this here, or rephrase it to say that weights are drawn uniformly on the hypersphere.

      We rephrased the description of how weights were determined (page 2).

      (3) Pg. 2 - "We hypothesize the time-resolved metabolic cost to be proportional to the estimate of a momentary firing rate of the neural population" - from what I can see, this is not the usual population rate, which would be an average or sum of rates across the population.

      Indeed, the time-dependent metabolic cost is not the population rate (in the sense of the sum of instantaneous firing rates across neurons), but is proportional to it by a factor of 1/t. More precisely, we can define the instantaneous estimate of the firing rate of a single neuron i as z<sub>i</sub>(t) = 1/t<sub>r</sub> r<sub>i</sub>(t) with r<sub>i</sub>(t) as in Eq. 7. We have clarified this in the revised text on page 3. 

      (4) Pg. 3: "The synaptic strength between two neurons is proportional to their tuning similarity if the tuning similarity is positive" - based on the figure and results, this appears to be the case for I-E, E-I, and I-I connections, but not for E-E connections. This should be clarified in the text. Furthermore, one reference given in the subsequent sentence (Ko et al. 2011, ref. 51), is specifically about E-E connections, so doesn't appear to be relevant here.

      We have now specified that the Eq. 24 does not describe E-E connections. We also agree that the reference (Ko et al. 2011) did not adequately support our claim and we thus removed it and revised the text on page 3 accordingly.

      (5) Pg. 3: "the relative weight of the metabolic cost over the encoding error controls the operating regime of the network" and "and an operating regime controlled by the metabolic constant" - what do you mean by operating regime here?

      We used the expression “operating regime” in the sense of a dynamical regime of the network.  However, we agree that this expression may be confusing and we removed it in revision. 

      (6) Pg. 3: "Previous studies interpreted changes of the metabolic constant beta as changes to the firing thresholds, which has less biological plausibility" - can the authors explain why this is less plausible, or ideally provide a reference for it?

      In biological networks, global variables such as brain state can strongly modulate the way neural networks respond to a feedforward stimulus. These variables influence neural activity in at least two distinct ways. One is by changing non-specific synaptic inputs to neurons, which is a network-wide effect (Destexhe and Pare, Nature Reviews Neurosci. 2003). This is captured in our model by changing the strength of the mean and fluctuations in the external currents. Beyond modulating synaptic currents, another way of modulating neural activity is by changing cell-intrinsic factors that modulate the firing threshold in biological neurons (Pozzorini et al. 2013). Previous studies on spiking networks with efficient coding interpreted the effect of the metabolic constant as changes to the firing threshold (Koren and Deneve, 2017, Gutierrez and Deneve 2019), which corresponds to cell-intrinsic factors. Here we instead propose that the metabolic constant modulates the neural activity by changing the non-specific synaptic input, homogeneously across all neurons in the network. Interpreting the metabolic constant as setting the mean of the non-specific synaptic input was necessary in our model to find an optimal set of parameters (as in Table 1) that is also biologically plausible. We revised the text accordingly (page 4).

      (7) Pg. 4: Competition across neurons: since the model lacks E-E connectivity, it seems trivial to conclude that there is competition through lateral inhibition, and it can be directly determined from the connectivity. What is gained from running these perturbation experiments?

      We agree that a reader with a good understanding of sparse / efficient coding theory can tell that there is competition across neurons with similar tuning already from the equation for the recurrent connectivity (Eq. 24). However, we presume that not all readers can see this from the equations and that it is worth showing this with simulations.

      Following the reviewer's comment, we have now downplayed the result about the model manifesting lateral inhibition in general on page 6. We have also removed its extensive elaboration in Discussion.

      One reason to run perturbation experiments was to test to what extent the optimal model qualitatively replicates empirical findings, in particular, single neuron perturbation experiments in Chettih and Harvey, 2019, without specifically tuning any of the model parameters. We found that the model reproduces qualitatively the main empirical findings, without tuning the model to replicate the data. We revised the text on page 5 accordingly.

      Further reason to run these experiments was to refine predictions about the minimal amount of connectivity structure that generates perturbation response profiles that are qualitatively compatible with empirical observations. To establish this, we did perturbation experiments while removing the connectivity structure of a particular connectivity sub-matrices (E-I, I-I or I-E; Fig. S3 F). This allowed us to determine which connectivity matrix has to be structured to observe results that qualitatively match empirical findings. We found that the structure of E-I and I-E connectivity is necessary, but not the structure of I-I connectivity. Finally, we tested partial removal of the connectivity structure where we replaced the precise (and optimal) connectivity structure and imposed a simpler connectivity rule. In the optimal connectivity, the connection strength is proportional to the tuning similarity. A simpler connectivity rule, in contrast, only specifies that neurons with similar tuning share a connection, and beyond this the connection strength is random. Running perturbation experiments in such a network obeying a simpler connectivity rule still qualitatively replicated empirical results from Chettih and Harvey (2019). This is shown on the Supplementary Fig. S2F on described on page 8.

      (8) Pg. 4: "the optimal E-I network provided a precise and unbiased estimator of the multidimensional and time-dependent target signal" - from previous work (e.g., Calaim et al. 2022), I would guess that the estimator is indeed biased by the metabolic cost. Why is this not the case here? Did you tune the output weights to remove this bias?

      Output weights were not tuned to remove the bias. On Fig. 1H in the first submission we plotted the bias for the network that minimizes the encoding error. We forgot to specify this in the text and figure caption, for which we apologize. We now replaced this figure with a new one (Fig. 1E) where we plot the bias of the network minimizing the average loss (with parameters as in Table 1). The bias of the network minimizing the error is close to zero, B^E = 0.02 and B^I = 0.03.  The bias of the network minimizing the loss is stronger and negative, B^E = -0.15 and B^I=-0.34. In the text of Results, we now report the bias of both networks (i.e., optimizing the encoding error and optimizing the loss). We also added a plot showing trial-averaged estimates and a time-dependent bias in each stimulus dimension (Supplementary figure S1 F). Note that the network minimizing the encoding error requires a lower metabolic constant (β = 6) than the network optimizing the loss (β=14), however, the optimal metabolic cost in both networks is nonzero. We revised the text and explained these points on page 5.

      (9) Pg. 4: "The distribution of firing rates was well described by a log-normal distribution" - I find this quite interesting, but it isn't clear to me how much this is due to the simulation of a finitetime noisy input. If the neurons all have equal tuning on the hypersphere, I would expect that the variability in firing is primarily due to how much the input correlates with their tuning. If this is true, I would guess that if you extend the duration of the simulation, the distribution would become tighter. Can you confirm that this is the stationary distribution of the firing rates?

      We now simulated the network with longer simulation time (10 seconds of simulated time instead of 2 seconds used previously) and also iterated the simulation across 10 trials to report a result that is general across random draws of tuning parameters (previously a single set of tuning parameters was used). The reviewer is correct that the distribution of firing rates of E neurons has become tighter with longer simulation time, but distributions remain log-normal. We also recomputed the coefficient of variation (CV) using the same procedure. We updated these plots on Fig. 1F.

      (10) Pg. 4: "We observed a strong average E-I balance" - based on the plots in Figure 1J, the inputs appear to be inhibition-dominated, especially for excitatory neurons. So by what criterion are you calling this strong average balance?

      The reviewer is correct about the fact that the net synaptic input to single neurons in our optimal network shows excess inhibition and the network is inhibition-dominated, so we revised this sentence (page 5) accordingly.  

      (11) Pg. 4: Stronger instantaneous balance in I neurons compared to E neurons - this is curious, and I have two questions: (1) can the authors provide any intuition or explanation for why this is the case in the model? and (2) does this relate to any literature on balance that might suggest inhibitory neurons are more balanced than excitatory neurons?

      In our model, I neurons receive excitatory and inhibitory synaptic currents through synaptic connections that are precisely structured. E neurons receive structured inhibition and a feedforward current. The feedforward current consists of M=3 independent OU processes projected on the tuning vectors of E neurons w<sub>i</sub><sup>E</sup>. We speculate that because the synaptic inhibition and feedforward current are different processes and the 3 OU inputs are independent, it is harder for E neurons to achieve the instantaneous balance that would be as precise as in I neurons. While we think that the feedforward current in our model reflects biologically plausible sensory processing, it is not a mechanistic model of feedforward processing. In biological neurons, real feedforward signals are implemented as a series of complex feedforward synaptic inputs from downstream areas, while the feedforward current in our model is a sum of stimulus features, and is thus a simplification of a biological process that generates feedforward signals. We speculate that a mechanistic implementation of the feedforward current could increase the instantaneous balance in E neurons.  Furthermore, the presence of EE connections could potentially also increase the instantaneous balance in E neurons. We revised the Discussion about these important questions that lie on the side of model limitations and could be advanced in future work. We could not find any empirical evidence directly comparing the instantaneous balance in E versus I neurons.  We have reported these considerations in the revised Discussion (page 16).

      (12) Pg. 5, comparison with random connectivity: "Randomizing E-I and I-E connectivity led to several-fold increases in the encoding error as well as to significant increases in the metabolic cost" and Discussion, pg. 11: "the structured network exhibits several fold lower encoding error compared to unstructured networks": I'm wondering if these comparisons are fair. First, regarding activity changes that affect the metabolic cost - it is known that random balanced networks can have global activity control, so it is not straightforward that randomizing the connectivity will change the metabolic cost. What about shuffling the weights but keeping an average balance for each neuron's input weights? Second, regarding coding error, it is trivial that random weights will not map onto the correct readout. A fairer comparison, in my opinion, would at least be to retrain the output weights to find the best-fitting decoder for the threedimensional signal, something more akin to a reservoir network.

      Thank you for raising these interesting questions. The purpose of comparing networks with and without connectivity structure was to observe causal effects of the connectivity structure on the neural activity. We agree that the effect on the encoding error is close to trivial, because shuffling of connectivity weights decouples neural dynamics from decoding weights. We have carefully considered Reviewer's suggestions to better compare the performance of structured and unstructured networks. 

      In reply to the first point, we followed the reviewer's suggestion and compared the optimal network with a shuffled network that matched the optimal network in its average balance. This was achieved by increasing the metabolic constant, decreasing the noise intensity and slightly decreasing the feedforward stimulus (we did not find a way to match the net current in both cell types by changing a single parameter). As we compared the metabolic cost between the optimal and the shuffled network with matched average balance, we still found lower metabolic cost in the optimal network, even though the difference was now smaller. We replaced Fig. 3B from the first submission with these new results in Fig. 4B and commented on them in the text (page 7).

      In reply to the second point, we followed reviewer’s suggestion and compared the encoding error (RMSE) of the optimal network and the network with shuffled connectivity where decoding weights are trained such as to optimally reconstruct the target signal. As suggested, we now analyzed the encoding error of the networks using decoding weights trained on the set of spike trains generated by the network using linear least square regression to minimize the decoding error. For a fair and quantitative comparison and because we did not train decoding weights of our structured model, we performed this same analysis using spike trains generated by networks with structured and shuffled recurrent connectivity. We found that the encoding error is smaller in the E population and much smaller in the I population in the structured compared to the random network. Decoding weights found numerically in the optimal network approach uniform distribution of weights that we used in our model (Fig. 4A, right). In contrast, decoding weights obtained from the random network do not converge to a uniform distribution, but instead form a much sparser distribution, in particular in I neurons (Supplementary Fig. S3 A). These additional results reported in the above mentioned figures are discussed in text on page 14.  

      (13) Pg. 5: "a shift from mean-driven to fluctuation-driven spiking" and Pg. 11 "a network structured as in our efficient coding solution operates in a dynamical regime that is more stimulus-driven, compared to an unstructured network that is more fluctuation driven" - I would expect that the balanced condition dictates that spiking is always fluctuation driven. I'm wondering if the authors can clarify this.

      We agree with the reviewer that networks with and without connectivity structure are fluctuation-driven, because in a mean-driven network the mean current must be suprathreshold (Ahmadian and Miller, 2021), which is not the case of either network. We removed the claim of the change from mean to fluctuation driven regime in the revised paper. We are grateful to the Reviewer for helping us tighten the elaboration of our findings.

      (14) Pg. 5: "suggesting that variability of spiking is independent of the connectivity structure" - the literature of balanced networks argues against this. Is this not simply because you have a noisy input? Can you test this claim?

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. We tested this claim by measuring the coefficient of variation in networks receiving a constant stimulus. In particular, we set the same strength in each of the M=3 stimulus dimensions and set the stimulus amplitude such as to match the firing rate of the optimal network in response to the OU stimulus. We computed the coefficient of variation in 200 simulation trials.  The removal of connectivity structure did not cause significant change of the coefficient of variation in a network driven by a constant stimulus (Fig. 4E). These additional results are discussed in text on page 7. 

      We also taken the suggestion about variability of spiking being independent of the connectivity structure. We removed this claim in the revision, because we only tested a couple of specific cases where the connectivity is structured with respect to tuning similarity (fully structured, fully unstructured and partially unstructured networks). This is not exhaustive of all possible structures that recurrent connectivity may have.

      (15) Pg. 6: "we also removed the connectivity structure only partially, keeping like-to-like connectivity structure and removing all structure beyond like-to-like" - can you clarify what this means, perhaps using an equation? What connectivity structure is there besides like-to-like?

      In the optimal model, the strength of the synapse between a pair of neurons is proportional to the tuning similarity of the two neurons, Y<sub>ij</sub> proportional to J<sub>ij</sub> for Y<sub>ij</sub> >0 (see Eq. 24 and Fig. 1C(ii)). Besides networks with optimal connectivity, we also tested networks with a simpler connectivity rule. Such a simpler rule prescribes a connection if the pair of neurons has similar tuning (Y<sub>ij</sub> >0), and no connection otherwise. The strength of the connection following this simpler connectivity rule is otherwise random (and not proportional to pairwise tuning similarity Y<sub>ij</sub> as it is in the optimal network). We clarified this in the revision (page 8), also by avoiding the term “like-to-like” for the second type of networks, which could indeed be prone to confusion.

      (16) Pgs. 6-7: "we indeed found that optimal coding efficiency is achieved with weak adaptation in both cell types" and "adaptation in E neurons promotes efficient coding because it enforces every spike to be error- correcting" - this was not clear to me. First, it appears as though optimal efficiency is achieved without adaptation nor facilitation, i.e., when the time constants are all equal. Indeed, this is what is stated in Table 1. So is there really a weak adaptation present in the optimal case? Second, it seems that the network already enforces each spike to be errorcorrecting without adaptation, so why and how would adaptation help with this?

      We agree with the Reviewer that the network without adaptation in E and I neurons is already optimal. It is also true that most spikes in an optimal network should already be error-correcting (besides some spikes that might be caused by the noise). However, regimes with weak adaptation in E neurons remain close to optimality. Spike-triggered facilitation, meanwhile, ads spikes that are unnecessary and decrease network efficiency. We revised the Fig.5 (Fig. 4 in first submission) and replaced 2-dimensional plots in Fig.4 C-F with plots that show the differential effect of adaptation in E neurons (top) and in I neurons (bottom plots) for the measures of the encoding error (RMSE), the efficiency (average loss) and the firing rate (Fig. 5B-D). On the new Fig. 5C it is evident that the loss of E and I population grows slowly with adaptation in E neurons (top) while it grows faster with adaptation in I neurons (bottom). These considerations are explained in revised text on page 9.

      (17) Pg. 7: "adaptation in E neurons resulted in an increase of the encoding error in E neurons and a decrease in I neurons" - it would be nice if the authors could provide any explanation or intuition for why this is the case. Could it perhaps be because the E population has fewer spikes, making the signal easier to track for the I population?

      We agree that this could indeed be the case. We commented on it in revision (page 9).

      (18) Pg. 7: "The average balance was precise...with strong adaptation in E neurons, and it got weaker when increasing the adaptation in I neurons (Figure 4E)" - I found the wording of this a bit confusing. Didn't the balance get stronger with larger I time constants?

      By increasing the time constant of I neurons, the average imbalance got weaker (closer to zero) in E neurons (Fig. 5G, left), but stronger (further away from zero) in I neurons (Fig. 5G, right). We have revised the text on page 9 to make this clearer.

      (19) Pg. 7: Figure 4F is not directly described in the text.

      We have now added text (page 9) commenting on this figure in revision.

      (20) Pg. 8: "indicating that the recurrent network dynamics generates substantial variability even in the absence of variability in the external current" -- how does this observation relate to your earlier claim (which I noted above) that "variability of spiking is independent of connectivity structure"?

      We agree that the claim about variability of spiking being independent of connectivity structure was overstated and we thus removed it. The observation that we wanted to report is that both structured and unstructured networks have very similar levels of variability of spiking of single neurons. The fact that much of the variability of the optimal network is generated by recurrent connections is not incompatible. We revised the related text (page 11) for clarity.

      (21) Pg. 9: "We found that in the optimally efficient network, the mean E-I and I-E synaptic efficacy are exactly balanced" - isn't this by design based on the derivation of the network?

      True, the I-E connectivity matrix is the transpose of the E-I connectivity matrix, and their means are the same by the analytical solution. This however remains a finding of our study. We have clarified this in the revised text (page 12).

      (22) Pg. 30, eq. 25: the authors should verify if they include all possible connectivity here, or if they exclude EE connectivity beforehand.

      We now specify that the equation for recurrent connectivity (Eq. 24, Eq. 25 in first submission) does not include the E-E connectivity in the revised text (page 41).

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Essential

      (1)  Currently, they measure the RMSE and cost of the E and I population separately, and the 1CT model. Then, they average the losses of the E and I populations, and compare that to the 1CT model, with the conclusion that the 1CT model has a higher average loss. However, it seems to me that only the E population should be compared to the 1CT model. The I population loss determines how well the I population can represent the E population representation (which it can do extremely well). But the overall coding accuracy of the network of the input signal itself is only represented by the E population. Even if you do combine the E and I losses, they should be summed, not averaged. I believe a more fair conclusion would be that the E/I networks have generally slightly worse performance because of needing to follow Dale's law, but are still highly efficient and precise nonetheless. Of course, I might be making a critical error somewhere above, and happy to be convinced otherwise!

      We carefully considered the reviewer's comment and tested different ways of combining the losses of the E and I population. We decided to follow the reviewer's suggestion and to compare the loss of the E population of the E-I model with the loss of the one cell type model. As evident already from the Fig. 8G, such comparison indeed changes the result to make the 1CT model more efficient. Also, the sum of losses of E and I neurons results in the 1CT model being more efficient than the E-I model. Note, however, the robustness of the E-I model to changes in the metabolic constant (Fig. 6C, top). The firing rates of the E-I model stay within physiological ranges for any value of the metabolic constant, while the firing rate of the 1CT model skyrocket for the metabolic constant that is lower than optimal (Fig. 8I).

      We added to Results (page 14) a summary of these findings.

      (2) The methods and main text should make much clearer what aspects of the derivation are novel, and which are not novel (see review weaknesses for specifics).

      We specified these aspects, as discussed in more detail in the above reply to point 4 of the public review of Reviewer 1.

      Request:

      If possible, I would like to see the code before publication and give recommendations on that (is it easy to parse and reproduce, etc.)

      We are happy to share the computer code with the reviewer and the community. We added a link to our public repository containing the computer code that we used for simulations and analysis to the preprint and submission (section “Code availability” on page 17). 

      Suggestions:

      (1) I believe that for an eLife audience, the main text is too math-heavy at the beginning, and it could be much simplified, or more effort could be made to guide the reader through the math.

      We tried to do our best to improve the clarity of description of mathematical expressions in the main text.

      (2) Generally vector notation makes network equations for spiking neurons much clearer and easier to parse, I would recommend using that throughout the paper (and not just in the supplementary methods).

      We now use vector notation throughout the paper whenever we think that this improves the intelligibility of the text. 

      (3) In the discussion or at the end of the results adding a clear section summarizing what the minimal requirements or essential assumptions are for biological networks to implement this theory would be helpful for experimentalists and theorists alike.

      We have added such a section in Discussion (page 15). 

      (5) I think the title is a bit too cumbersome and hard to parse. Might I suggest something like 'Efficient coding and energy use in biophysically realistic excitatory-inhibitory spiking networks' or 'Biophysically constrained excitatory-inhibitory spiking networks can efficiently implement efficient coding'.

      We followed reviewer’s suggestion and changed the title to “Efficient coding in biophysically realistic excitatory-inhibitory spiking networks.”

      (6) How the connections were shuffled exactly was not clear to me in how it was described now. Did they just take the derived connectivity, and shuffle the connections around? I recommend a more explicit methods section on it (I might have missed it).

      Indeed, the connections of the optimal network were randomly shuffled, without repetition, between all neuronal pairs of a specific connectivity matrix. This allows to preserve all properties of the distribution of connectivity weights and only removes the structure of the connectivity, which is precisely what we wanted to test. We now added a section in Methods (“Removal of connectivity structure”) on pages 51-52 where we explain how the connectivity structure is removed.

      (7) Figure 1 sub-panel ordering was confusing to read (first up down, then left right). Not sure if re- arranging is possible, but perhaps it could be A, B, and C at the top, with subsublabels (i) and (ii). Might become too busy though.

      We followed this suggestion and rearranged the Fig. 1 as suggested by the reviewer. 

      (8) Equation 3 in the main text should specify that 'y' stands for either E or I.

      This has been specified in the revision (page 3). 

      (9) Figure 1D shows a rough sketch of the types of connectivities that exist, but I would find it very useful to also see the actual connection strengths and the effect of enforcing Dale's law.

      We revised this figure (now Fig. 1B (ii)) and added connection strengths as well as a sketch of a connection that was removed because of Dale’s law.

      (10) The main text mentions how the readout weights are defined (normal distributions), but I think this should also be mentioned in the methods.

      Agreed. We indeed had Methods section “Parametrization of synaptic connectivity (page 46), where we explain how readout weights are defined. We apologize if a call on this section was not salient enough in the first submission. We made sure that the revised main text contains a clear pointer to this Methods section for details. 

      (11) The text seems to mix ‘decoding weights’ and ‘readout weights’.

      Thanks for this suggestion to use consistent language. We opted for ‘decoding weights’ and removed ‘readout weights’.

      (12) The way the paper is written makes it quite hard to parse what are new experimental predictions, and what results reproduce known features. I wonder if some sort of 'box' is possible with novel predictions that experimentalists could easily look at and design an experiment around.

      We now revised the text. We clarified for every property of the model if this property is a prediction of facts that were not yet experimentally tested or if it accounts for previously observed properties of biological neurons. Please see the reply to point 4 of Reviewer 1. 

      (13) Typo's etc.:

      Page 5 bottom -- ("all") should have one of the quotes change direction (common latex typo, seems to be the only place with the issue).

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out this typo that has been removed in revision.

      1. Compounded Annually A = P (1 + r)^t Where: • A: Future value • P: Principal amount • r: Annual interest rate (decimal form, e.g., 5% = 0.05) • t: Time in years
      2. Compounded Quarterly A = P (1 + r / 4)^{4t} Where 4 is the number of quarters in a year.
      3. Compounded Monthly A = P (1 + r / 12)^{12t} Where 12 is the number of months in a year.
      4. Compounded Daily A = P (1 + r / 365)^{365t} Where 365 is the number of days in a year.
      5. Compounded Continuously A = P e^{rt} Where e is Euler’s number (approximately 2.71828).
      6. General Formula for Periodic Compounding For n compounding periods per year: A = P (1 + r / n)^{nt} Where n is the number of compounding periods (e.g., n = 1 for annual, n = 12 for monthly, etc.). Would you like me to adjust this further for your specific tool or platform? Here’s a simplified, copy-paste-friendly version of the study guide: Evaluate Logarithms (Level 1 and Level 2)
        1. Definition of a Logarithm: log_b(a) = c means b^c = a • b = Base (must be positive and not equal to 1) • a = Result (must be positive) • c = Exponent
        2. Common Logarithms: • log(a) means log_10(a). • ln(a) means log_e(a), where e ≈ 2.718.
        3. Properties of Logarithms: • log_b(1) = 0 • log_b(b) = 1 • log_b(b^c) = c • b^(log_b(a)) = a
        4. Examples: • log_2(8) = 3 (because 2^3 = 8) • ln(e^4) = 4 • log(100) = 2 (because 10^2 = 100) Convert Exponential Equation to Logarithmic Form
        5. Start with an exponential equation: b^c = a
        6. Convert to logarithmic form: log_b(a) = c Example: • Exponential: 3^4 = 81 • Logarithmic: log_3(81) = 4 Convert Logarithmic Equation to Exponential Form
        7. Start with a logarithmic equation: log_b(a) = c
        8. Convert to exponential form: b^c = a Example: • Logarithmic: log_2(16) = 4 • Exponential: 2^4 = 16 Features of Exponential and Logarithmic Functions Exponential Functions:
        9. Form: f(x) = a * b^x • a = Initial value • b = Base (growth if b > 1, decay if 0 < b < 1)
        10. Key Features: • Domain: (-∞, ∞) • Range: (0, ∞) • Asymptote: y = 0 Logarithmic Functions:
        11. Form: f(x) = log_b(x) • Inverse of b^x
        12. Key Features: • Domain: (0, ∞) • Range: (-∞, ∞) • Asymptote: x = 0 Practice Problems:
        13. Evaluate: log_5(25), log_2(32), ln(e^3).
        14. Convert 2^3 = 8 to logarithmic form.
        15. Convert log_4(16) = 2 to exponential form.
        16. Identify the domain and range of f(x) = 3^x and f(x) = log_3(x). Let me know if you need additional clarifications!

      1. Compounded Annually A = P (1 + r)^t Where: • A: Future value • P: Principal amount • r: Annual interest rate (decimal form, e.g., 5% = 0.05) • t: Time in years
      2. Compounded Quarterly A = P (1 + r / 4)^{4t} Where 4 is the number of quarters in a year.
      3. Compounded Monthly A = P (1 + r / 12)^{12t} Where 12 is the number of months in a year.
      4. Compounded Daily A = P (1 + r / 365)^{365t} Where 365 is the number of days in a year.
      5. Compounded Continuously A = P e^{rt} Where e is Euler’s number (approximately 2.71828).
      6. General Formula for Periodic Compounding For n compounding periods per year: A = P (1 + r / n)^{nt} Where n is the number of compounding periods (e.g., n = 1 for annual, n = 12 for monthly, etc.). Would you like me to adjust this further for your specific tool or platform? Here’s a simplified, copy-paste-friendly version of the study guide: Evaluate Logarithms (Level 1 and Level 2)
        1. Definition of a Logarithm: log_b(a) = c means b^c = a • b = Base (must be positive and not equal to 1) • a = Result (must be positive) • c = Exponent
        2. Common Logarithms: • log(a) means log_10(a). • ln(a) means log_e(a), where e ≈ 2.718.
        3. Properties of Logarithms: • log_b(1) = 0 • log_b(b) = 1 • log_b(b^c) = c • b^(log_b(a)) = a
        4. Examples: • log_2(8) = 3 (because 2^3 = 8) • ln(e^4) = 4 • log(100) = 2 (because 10^2 = 100) Convert Exponential Equation to Logarithmic Form
        5. Start with an exponential equation: b^c = a
        6. Convert to logarithmic form: log_b(a) = c Example: • Exponential: 3^4 = 81 • Logarithmic: log_3(81) = 4 Convert Logarithmic Equation to Exponential Form
        7. Start with a logarithmic equation: log_b(a) = c
        8. Convert to exponential form: b^c = a Example: • Logarithmic: log_2(16) = 4 • Exponential: 2^4 = 16 Features of Exponential and Logarithmic Functions Exponential Functions:
        9. Form: f(x) = a * b^x • a = Initial value • b = Base (growth if b > 1, decay if 0 < b < 1)
        10. Key Features: • Domain: (-∞, ∞) • Range: (0, ∞) • Asymptote: y = 0 Logarithmic Functions:
        11. Form: f(x) = log_b(x) • Inverse of b^x
        12. Key Features: • Domain: (0, ∞) • Range: (-∞, ∞) • Asymptote: x = 0 Practice Problems:
        13. Evaluate: log_5(25), log_2(32), ln(e^3).
        14. Convert 2^3 = 8 to logarithmic form.
        15. Convert log_4(16) = 2 to exponential form.
        16. Identify the domain and range of f(x) = 3^x and f(x) = log_3(x). Let me know if you need additional clarifications!

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    1. You can use Personal Voice only to create a voice on your device that sounds like you using your own voice for your personal, noncommercial use. Personal Voice can be created using iPhone, iPad, and Mac with Apple silicon and is available in English for all locales. Detection Mode requires devices with the LiDAR Scanner. The LiDAR Scanner is available only on iPhone 12 Pro, iPhone 12 Pro Max, iPhone 13 Pro, iPhone 13 Pro Max, iPhone 14 Pro, iPhone 14 Pro Max, iPhone 15 Pro, iPhone 15 Pro Max, iPhone 16 Pro, iPhone 16 Pro Max, iPad Pro 11-inch (M4), iPad Pro 13‑inch (M4), iPad Pro 12.9‑inch (4th generation or later), and iPad Pro 11‑inch (2nd generation or later). Door Detection and Point and Speak can read signs and labels in Cantonese (Simplified, Traditional), Chinese (Simplified, Traditional), English (U.S.), French (France), German (Germany), Italian (Italy), Japanese (Japan), Korean (South Korea), Portuguese (Brazil), Russian (Russia), Spanish (Spain), and Ukrainian (Ukraine). Detection Mode should not be relied on in circumstances where you may be harmed or injured or in high-risk or emergency situations. Detection Mode with Action button is supported by iPhone 15 Pro, iPhone 15 Pro Max, iPhone 16 Pro, and iPhone 16 Pro Max. Supports Arabic (World), Bangla (India), Basque, Bhojpuri (India), Bulgarian, Cantonese (Hong Kong), Catalan, Croatian, Czech, Danish, Dutch (Belgium, Netherlands), English (Australia, India, Ireland, Scotland, South Africa, UK, U.S.), Farsi, Finnish, French (Belgium, Canada, France), Galician, German, Greek, Hebrew, Hindi, Hungarian, Indonesian, Italian, Japanese, Kannada, Kazakh, Korean, Lithuanian, Malay, Mandarin (China mainland, Liaoning, Shaanxi, Sichuan, Taiwan), Marathi, Norwegian, Polish, Portuguese (Brazil, Portugal), Romanian, Russian, Shanghainese (China mainland), Slovak, Slovenian, Spanish (Argentina, Chile, Colombia, Mexico, Spain), Swedish, Tamil, Telugu, Thai, Turkish, Ukrainian, Valencian, and Vietnamese. VoiceOver Image Recognition works with iPad Pro with iPadOS 14 or later and iPhone XR or later with iOS 14 or later. For Mac, Image Recognition requires macOS Big Sur or later. Music Haptics are available on iPhone 12 and later (excluding iPhone SE). Sound Recognition should not be relied on in circumstances where you may be harmed or injured, in high-risk or emergency situations, or for navigation. The Hearing Aid feature has received FDA authorization. The Hearing Test and Hearing Aid features are supported on AirPods Pro 2 with the latest firmware paired with a compatible iPhone or iPad with iOS 18 or iPadOS 18 and later and are intended for people 18 years or older. The Hearing Aid feature is also supported on a compatible Mac with macOS Sequoia and later. It is intended for people with perceived mild to moderate hearing loss. The Hearing Protection feature works with AirPods Pro 2 with the latest firmware when paired with a compatible iPhone, iPad, or Mac with iOS 18, iPadOS 18, or macOS Sequoia and later. Feature is available only in the U.S. and Canada. See support.apple.com/120850 for total attenuation and more information. The Hearing Protection feature is not suitable for protection against extremely loud impulse sounds, such as gunfire, fireworks, or jackhammers, or against sustained sounds louder that 110 dBA. AssistiveTouch for Apple Watch requires Apple Watch Series 4 or later. Eye Tracking is available on iPhone 12 and later, iPhone SE (3rd generation), iPad Pro (M4), iPad Pro 12.9-inch (5th generation and later), iPad Pro 11-inch (3rd generation and later), iPad (10th generation), iPad Air (M2), iPad Air (4th generation and later), and iPad mini (6th generation). Voice Control spelling mode is available when users have their system language set to English (U.S.). Voice Control is not available in all areas and on all Apple software. Voice Control uses the Siri speech recognition engine for Cantonese (Hong Kong), Chinese (China mainland), English (Australia, Canada, India, UK, U.S.), French (France), German (Germany), Japanese (Japan), and Spanish (Mexico, Spain, U.S.). Hearing Health features are subject to change. Some features may not be available in all regions or all languages. View complete list

      Bad Practice: This text has low contrast against the background, which can make it difficult to read for users with visual impairments.

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The Authors investigated the anatomical features of the excitatory synaptic boutons in layer 1 of the human temporal neocortex. They examined the size of the synapse, the macular or the perforated appearance and the size of the synaptic active zone, the number and volume of the mitochondria, the number of the synaptic and the dense core vesicles, also differentiating between the readily releasable, the recycling and the resting pool of synaptic vesicles. The coverage of the synapse by astrocytic processes was also assessed, and all the above parameters were compared to other layers of the human temporal neocortex. The Authors conclude that the subcellular morphology of the layer 1 synapses is suitable for the functions of the neocortical layer, i.e. the synaptic integration within the cortical column. The low glial coverage of the synapses might allow the glutamate spillover from the synapses enhancing synpatic crosstalk within this cortical layer.

      Strengths:

      The strengths of this paper are the abundant and very precious data about the fine structure of the human neocortical layer 1. Quantitative electron microscopy data (especially that derived from the human brain) are very valuable, since this is a highly time- and energy consuming work. The techniques used to obtain the data, as well as the analyses and the statistics performed by the Authors are all solid, strengthen this manuscript, and mainly support the conclusions drawn in the discussion.

      Comments on latest version:

      The corrected version of the article titled „Ultrastructural sublaminar specific diversity of excitatory synaptic boutons in layer 1 of the adult human temporal lobe neocortex" has been improved thanks to the comments and suggestions of the reviewers. The Authors implemented several of my comments and suggestions. However, many of them were not completed. It is understandable that the Authors did not start a whole new series of experiment investigating inhibitory synapses (as it was a misunderstanding affecting 2 reviewers from the three). But the English text is still very hard to understand and has many mistakes, although I suggested to extensively review the use of English. Furthermore, my suggestion about avoiding many abbreviations in the abstract, analyse and discuss more the perforated synapses, the figure presentation (Figure 3) and including data about the astrocytic coverage in the Results section were not implemented. My questions about the number of docked vesicles and p10 vesicles, as well as about the different categories of the vesicle pools have not been answered neither. Many other minor comments and suggestions were answered, corrected and implemented, but I think it could have been improved more if the Authors take into account all of the reviewers' suggestions, not only some of them. I still have several main and minor concerns, with a few new ones as well I did not realized earlier, but still think it is important.

      Main concerns:

      (1) Epileptic patients:<br /> As all patients were epileptic, it is not correct to state in the abstract that non-epileptic tissue was investigated. Even if the seizure onset zone was not in the region investigated, seizures usually invade the temporal lobe in TLE. If you can prove that no spiking activity occured in the sample you investigated and the seizures did not invade that region, then you can write that it is presumably non-epileptic. I would suggest to write „L1 of the human temporal lobe neocortical biopsy tissue". See also Methods lines 608-612. Write only „non-epileptic" or „non-affected" if you verified it with EcoG. If this was the case, please write a few sentences about it in the Methods.

      (2) About the inhibitory/excitatory synapses.<br /> Since our focus was on excitatory synaptic boutons as already stated in the title we have not analyzed inhibitory SBs.<br /> Now, I do understand that only excitatory synapses were investigated. Although it was written in the title, I did not realized, since all over the manuscript the Authors were writing synapses, and were distinguishing between inhibitory and excitatory syanpses in the text and showing numerous excitatory and inhibitory synapses on Figure 2 and discussing inhibitory interneurons in the Discussion as well. Maybe this was the reason why two reviewers out of the three (including myself) thought you investigated both types of synapses but did not differentiated between them. So, please, emphasize in the Abstract (line 40), Introduction (for ex. line 92-97) and the Discussion (line 369) that only excitatory synaptic boutons were investigated.<br /> As this paper investigated only excitatory synaptic boutons, I think it is irrelevant to write such a long section in the Discussion about inhibitory interneurons and their functions in the L1 of the human temporal lobe neocortex. Same applies to the schematic drawing of the possible wiring of L1 (Figure 7). As no inhibitory interneurons were examined, neither the connection of the different excitatory cells, only the morphology of single synaptic boutons without any reference on their origin, I think this figure does not illustrate the work done in this paper. This could be a figure of a review paper about the human L1, but is is inappropriate in this study.

      (3) Perforated synapses<br /> "the findings of the Geinismann group suggesting that perforated synapses are more efficient than non-perforated ones is nowadays very controversially discussed"<br /> I did not ask the Authors to say that perforated synapses are more efficient. However, based on the literature (for ex. Harris et al, 1992; Carlin and Siekievitz, 1982; Nieto-Sampedro et al., 1982) the presence of perforated synapses is indeed a good sign of synapse division/formation - which in turn might be coupled to synaptic plasticity (Geinisman et al, 1993), increased synaptic activity (Vrensen and Cardozo, 1981), LTP (Geinisman et al, 1991, Harris et al, 2003), pathological axonal sprouting (Frotscher et al, 2006), etc. I think it is worth mentioning this at least in the Discussion.

      (4) Question about the vesicle pools<br /> Results, Line 271: Still not understandable, why the RRP was defined as {less than or equal to}10 nm and {less than or equal to}20nm. Why did you use two categories? One would be sufficient (for example {less than or equal to}20nm). Or the vesicles between 10 and 20nm were considered to be part of RRP? In this case there is a typo, it should be {greater than or equal to}10 nm and {less than or equal to}20nm.<br /> The answer of the Authors was to my question raised: We decided that also those very close within 10 and 20 nm away from the PreAZ, which is less than a SV diameter may also contribute to the RRP since it was shown that SVs are quite mobile.<br /> This does not clarify why did you use two categories. Furthermore, I did not receive answer (such as Referee #2) for my question on how could you have 3x as many docked vesicles than vesicles {less than or equal to}10nm. The category {less than or equal to}10nm should also contain the docked vesicles. Or if this is not the case, please, clarify better what were your categories.

      (5) Astrocytic coverage<br /> On Fig. 6 data are presented on the astrocytic coverage derived from L1 and L4. In my previous review I asked to include this in the text of the Results as well, but I still do not see it. It is also lacking from the Results how many samples from which layer were investigated in this analysis. Only percentages are given, and only for L1 (but how many patients, L1a and/or L1b and/or L4 is not provided). In contrast, Figure 6 and Supplementary Table 2 (patient table) contains the information that this analysis has been made in L4 as well. Please, include this information in the text as well (around lines 348-360).<br /> About how to determine glial elements. I cannot agree with the Authors that glial elements can be determined with high certainty based only on the anatomical features of the profiles seen in the EM. „With 25 years of experience in (serial) EM work" I would say, that glial elements can be very similar to spine necks and axonal profiles.<br /> All in all, if similar methods were used to determine the glial coverage in the different layers of the human neocortex, than it can be compared (I guess this is the case). However, I would say in the text that proper determination would need immunostaining and a new analysis. This only gives an estimatation with the possibility of a certain degree of error.

      (6) Large interindividual differences in the synapse density should be discussed in the Discussion.

    2. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The study of Rollenhagen et al examines the ultrastructural features of Layer 1 of human temporal cortex. The tissue was derived from drug-resistant epileptic patients undergoing surgery, and was selected as further from the epilepsy focus, and as such considered to be non-epileptic. The analyses has included 4 patients with different age, sex, medication and onset of epilepsy. The MS is a follow-on study with 3 previous publications from the same authors on different layers of the temporal cortex:

      Layer 4 - Yakoubi et al 2019 eLife<br /> Layer 5 - Yakoubi et al 2019 Cerebral Cortex,<br /> Layer 6 - Schmuhl-Giesen et al 2022 Cerebral Cortex

      They find, the L1 synaptic boutons mainly have single active zone a very large pool of synaptic vesicles and are mostly devoid of astrocytic coverage.

      Strengths:

      The MS is well written easy to read. Result section gives a detailed set of figures showing many morphological parameters of synaptic boutons and surrounding glial elements. The authors provide comparative data of all the layers examined by them so far in the Discussion. Given that anatomical data in human brain are still very limited, the current MS has substantial relevance.<br /> The work appears to be generally well done, the EM and EM tomography images are of very good quality. The analyses is clear and precise.

      Weaknesses:

      The authors made all the corrections required, answered most of my concerns, included additional data sets, and clarified statements where needed.

      My remaining points are:

      Synaptic vesicle diameter (that has been established to be ~40nm independent of species) can properly be measured with EM tomography only, as it provides the possibility to find the largest diameter of every given vesicle. Measuring it in 50 nm thick sections result in underestimation (just like here the values are ~25 nm) as the measured diameter will be smaller than the true diameter if the vesicle is not cut in the middle, (which is the least probable scenario). The authors have the EM tomography data set for measuring the vesicle diameter properly.

      It is a bit misleading to call vesicle populations at certain arbitrary distances from the presynaptic active zone as readily releasable pool, recycling pool and resting pool, as these are functional categories, and cannot directly be translated to vesicles at certain distances. Even it is debated whether the morphologically docked vesicles are the ones, that are readily releasable, as further molecular steps, such as proper priming is also a prerequisite for release.<br /> It would help to call these pools as "putative" correlates of the morphological categories.

    3. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors investigated the anatomical features of the synaptic boutons in layer 1 of the human temporal neocortex. They examined the size of each synapse, the macular or perforated appearance, the size of the synaptic active zone, the number and volume of the mitochondria, and the number of synaptic and dense core vesicles, also differentiating between the readily releasable, the recycling, and the resting pool of synaptic vesicles. The coverage of the synapse by astrocytic processes was also assessed, and all the above parameters were compared to other layers of the human temporal neocortex. The authors conclude that the subcellular morphology of the layer 1 synapses are suitable for the functions of the neocortical layer, i.e. the synaptic integration within the cortical column. The low glial coverage of the synapses might allow increased glutamate spillover from the synapses, enhancing synaptic crosstalk within this cortical layer.

      Strengths:

      The strengths of this paper are the abundant and very precious data about the fine structure of the human neocortical layer 1. Quantitative electron microscopy data (especially that derived from the human brain) are very valuable since this is a highly time- and energy-consuming work. The techniques used to obtain the data, as well as the analyses and the statistics performed by the authors are all solid, strengthen this manuscript, and mainly support the conclusions drawn in the discussion.

      We would like to thank reviewer#1 for his very positive comments on our manuscript stating that such data about the fine structure of the human neocortex are are highly relevant.

      Weaknesses:

      There are several weaknesses in this work. First, the authors should check and review extensively for improvements to the use of English. Second, several additional analyses performed on the existing data could substantially elevate the value of the data presented. Much more information could be gained from the existing data about the functions of the investigated layer, of the cortical column, and about the information processing of the human neocortex. Third, several methodological concerns weaken the conclusions drawn from the results.

      We would like to thank the reviewer for his critical and thus helpful comments on our manuscript. We took the first comment of the reviewer concerning the English and have thus improved our manuscript by rephrasing and shortening sentences. Secondly, according to the reviewer several additional analyses should be performed on the existing data, which could substantially elevate the value of the data presented. We will implement some of the suggestions in the improved version of the manuscript where appropriate. We will address a more detailed answer to the reviewer’s queries in her/his suggestions to the authors (see below). However, the reviewer states himself: “The techniques used to obtain the data, as well as the analyses and the statistics performed by the authors are all solid, strengthen this manuscript, and mainly support the conclusions drawn in the discussion”.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The study of Rollenhagen et al. examines the ultrastructural features of Layer 1 of the human temporal cortex. The tissue was derived from drug-resistant epileptic patients undergoing surgery, and was selected as far as possible from the epilepsy focus, and as such considered to be non-epileptic. The analyses included 4 patients with different ages, sex, medication, and onset of epilepsy. The manuscript is a follow-on study with 3 previous publications from the same authors on different layers of the temporal cortex:

      Layer 4 - Yakoubi et al 2019 eLife

      Layer 5 - Yakoubi et al 2019 Cerebral Cortex

      Layer 6 - Schmuhl-Giesen et al 2022 Cerebral Cortex.

      They find, that the L1 synaptic boutons mainly have a single active zone, a very large pool of synaptic vesicles, and are mostly devoid of astrocytic coverage.

      Strengths:

      The manuscript is well-written and easy to read. The Results section gives a detailed set of figures showing many morphological parameters of synaptic boutons and glial elements. The authors provide comparative data of all the layers examined by them so far in the Discussion. Given that anatomical data in the human brain are still very limited, the current manuscript has substantial relevance. The work appears to be generally well done, the EM and EM tomography images are of very good quality. The analysis is clear and precise.

      We would like to thank the reviewer for his very positive evaluation of our paper and the comments that such data have a substantial relevance, in particular in the human neocortex. In contrast to reviewer#1, this reviewer’s opinion is that the manuscript is well written and easy to read.

      Weaknesses:

      One of the main findings of this paper is that "low degree of astrocytic coverage of L1 SBs suggests that glutamate spillover and as a consequence synaptic cross-talk may occur at the majority of synaptic complexes in L1". However, the authors only quantified the volume ratio of astrocytes in all 6 layers, which is not necessarily the same as the glial coverage of synapses. In order to strengthen this statement, the authors could provide 3D data (that they have from the aligned serial sections) detailing the percentage of synapses that have glial processes in close proximity to the synaptic cleft, that would prevent spillover.

      We agree with the reviewer that we only quantified the volume ratio of the astrocytic coverage but not necessarily the percentage of synapses that may or not contribute to the formation of the ‘tripartite’ synapse. As suggested, we will re-analyze our material with respect to the percentage of coverage for individual synaptic boutons in each layer and will implement the results in the improved version of the manuscript. However, since this is a completely new analysis that is time-consuming we would like to ask the reviewer for additional time to perform this task.

      A specific statement is missing on whether only glutamatergic boutons were analyzed in this MS, or GABAergic boutons were also included. There is a statement, that they can be distinguished from glutamatergic ones, but it would be useful to state it clearly in the Abstract, Results, and Methods section what sort of boutons were analyzed. Also, what is the percentage of those boutons from the total bouton population in L1?

      We would like to thank the reviewer for this comment. Although our title clearly states, we focused on quantitative 3D-models of excitatory synaptic boutons, we will point out that more clearly in the Methods and Result chapters. Our data support recent findings by others (see for example Cano-Astorga et al. 2023, 2024; Shapson-Coe et al. 2024) that have evaluated the ratio between excitatory vs. inhibitory synaptic boutons in the temporal lobe neocortex, the same area as in our study, which was between 10-15% inhibitory terminals but with a significant layer and region specific difference. We will include the excitatory vs. inhibitory ratio and the corresponding citations in the Results section.

      Synaptic vesicle diameter (that has been established to be ~40nm independent of species) can properly be measured with EM tomography only, as it provides the possibility to find the largest diameter of every given vesicle. Measuring it in 50 nm thick sections results in underestimation (just like here the values are ~25 nm) as the measured diameter will be smaller than the true diameter if the vesicle is not cut in the middle, (which is the least probable scenario). The authors have the EM tomography data set for measuring the vesicle diameter properly.

      We partially disagree with the reviewer on this point. Using high-resolution transmission electron microscopy, we measured the distance from the outer-to-outer membrane only on those synaptic vesicles that were round in shape with a clear ring-like structure to avoid double counts and discarded all those that were only partially cut according to criteria developed by Abercrombie (1946) and Boissonnat (1988). We assumed that within a 55±5 nm thick ultrathin section (silver to gray interference contrast) all clear-ring-like vesicles were distributed in this section assuming a vesicle diameter between 25 to 40nm. For large DCVs, double-counts were excluded by careful examination of adjacent images and were only counted in the image where they appeared largest.

      In addition, we have measured synaptic vesicles using TEM tomography and came to similar results. We will address this in Material and Methods that both methods were used.

      It is a bit misleading to call vesicle populations at certain arbitrary distances from the presynaptic active zone as readily releasable pool, recycling pool, and resting pool, as these are functional categories, and cannot directly be translated to vesicles at certain distances. Indeed, it is debated whether the morphologically docked vesicles are the ones, that are readily releasable, as further molecular steps, such as proper priming are also a prerequisite for release.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. However, nobody before us tried to define a morphological correlate for the three functionally defined pools of synaptic vesicles since synaptic vesicles normally are distributed over the entire nerve terminal. As already mentioned above, after long and thorough discussions with Profs. Bill Betz, Chuck Stevens, Thomas Schikorski and other experts in this field we tried to define the readily releasable (RRP), recycling (RP) and resting pools by measuring the distance of each synaptic vesicle to the presynaptic density (PreAZ). Using distance as a criterion, we defined the RRP including all vesicles that were located within a distance (perimeter) of 10 to 20 nm from the PreAZ that is less than an average vesicle diameter (between 25 to 40 nm). The RP was defined as vesicles within a distance of 60-200 nm away, still quite close but also rapidly available on demand and the remaining ones beyond 200 nm were suggested to belong to the resting pool. This concept was developed for our first publication (Sätzler et al. 2002) and this approximation since then is very much acknowledged by scientist working in the field of synaptic neuroscience and computational neuroscientist. We were asked by several labs worldwide whether they can use our data of the perimeter analysis for modeling. We agree that our definition of the three pools can be seen as arbitrary but we never claimed that our approach is the truth but nothing as the truth. Concerning the debate whether only docked vesicles or also those very close the PreAZ should constitute the RRP we have a paper in preparation using our perimeter analysis, EM tomography and simulations trying to clarify this debate. Our preliminary results suggest that the size of the RRP should be reconsidered.

      Tissue shrinkage due to aldehyde fixation is a well-documented phenomenon that needs compensation when dealing with density values. The authors cite Korogod et al 2015 - which actually draws attention to the problem comparing aldehyde fixed and non-fixed tissue, still the data is non-compensated in the manuscript. Since all the previous publications from this lab are based on aldehyde fixed non-compensated data, and for this sake, this dataset should be kept as it is for comparative purposes, it would be important to provide a scaling factor applicable to be able to compare these data to other publications.

      We thank the reviewer for his suggestion. However, for several reasons we did not correct for shrinkage caused by aldehyde fixation. There are papers by Eyre et al. (2007) and the mentioned paper by Korogod et al. 2015 that have demonstrated that cryo-fixation reveals larger numbers of docked synaptic vesicles, a smaller glial volume, and a less intimate glial coverage of synapses and blood vessels compared to chemical fixation. Other structural subelements such as active zone size and shape and the total number of synaptic vesicles remained unaffected. In two further publications Zhao et al. (2012a, b) investigating hippocampal mossy fiber boutons using cryo-fixation and substitutions came to similar results with respect to bouton and active zone size and number and diameter of synaptic vesicles compared to aldehyde-fixation as described by Rollenhagen et al. 2007 for the same nerve terminal. This was one of the reasons not correcting for shrinkage. In addition, all cited papers state that chemical fixation in general provides a much better ultrastructural preservation of tissue samples when compared with cryo-fixation and substitution where optimal preservation is only regional within a block of tissue and therefore less suitable for large-scale ultrastructural analyses as we performed.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Rollenhagen et al. offer a detailed description of layer 1 of the human neocortex. They use electron microscopy to assess the morphological parameters of presynaptic terminals, active zones, vesicle density/distribution, mitochondrial morphology, and astrocytic coverage. The data is collected from tissue from four patients undergoing epilepsy surgery. As the epileptic focus was localized in all patients to the hippocampus, the tissue examined in this manuscript is considered non-epileptic (access) tissue.

      Strengths:

      The quality of the electron microscopic images is very high, and the data is analyzed carefully. Data from human tissue is always precious and the authors here provide a detailed analysis using adequate approaches, and the data is clearly presented.

      We are very thankful to the reviewer upon his very positive comments about our data analysis and presentation.

      Weaknesses:

      The study provides only morphological details, these can be useful in the future when combined with functional assessments or computational approaches. The authors emphasize the importance of their findings on astrocytic coverage and suggest important implications for glutamate spillover. However, the percentage of synapses that form tripartite synapses has not been quantified, the authors' functional claims are based solely on volumetric fraction measurements.

      We thank the reviewer for his critical comments on our findings concerning the layer-specific astrocytic coverage as also suggested by reviewer#2. As already stated above we will analyze the astrocytic coverage and the layer-specific percentage of astrocytic contribution to the ‘tripartite’ synapse in more detail. We are, however, a bit puzzled about the comment that structural anatomists usually receive that our study only provides morphological details. Our thorough analysis of structural and synaptic parameters of synaptic boutons underlie and might even predict the function of synaptic boutons in a given microcircuit or network and will thus very much improve our understanding and knowledge about the functional properties of these structures, in particular in the human brain where such studies are still quite rare. The main goal of our studies in the human neocortex was the quantitative morphology of synaptic boutons and thus the synaptic organization of the cortical column, layer by layer which to our knowledge is the first such detailed study undertaken in the human brain. Our efforts have set a golden standard in the analysis of synaptic boutons embedded in different microcircuits und is meanwhile internationally very well accepted.

      The distinction between excitatory and inhibitory synapses is not clear, they should be analyzed separately.

      As already stated above in response to reviewer#1 our study focused on excitatory synaptic boutons since they represent the majority of synapses. However, in the improved version of our manuscript in the Material and Method section we included a paragraph with structural criteria to distinguish excitatory from inhibitory terminals (see also our comment to reviewer#1 concerning this point) including appropriate citations.

      The text connects functional and morphological characteristics in a very direct way. For example, connecting plasticity to any measurement the authors present would be rather difficult without any additional functional experiments. References to various vesicle pools based on the location of the vesicles are also more complex than suggested in the manuscript. The text should better reflect the limitations of the conclusions that can be drawn from the authors' data.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. However, it has been shown by meanwhile numerous publications that the shape and size of the active zone together with the pool of synaptic vesicles and the astrocytic coverage critically determines synaptic transmission and synaptic strength, but can also contribute to the modulation of synaptic plasticity (see also citations within the text). It has been shown that synaptic boutons can switch upon certain stimulation conditions to different modes of release (uni- vs. multiquantal, uni- vs multivesicular release) and from asynchronous to synchronous release leading also to the modulation of synaptic short- and long-term plasticity. To the second comment: When we started with our first paper about the Calyx of Held – principal neuron synapse in the MNTB (Sätzler et al. 2002) we tried to define a morphological correlate for the three functionally defined pools. As already mentioned above in our reply to the other two reviewers, this is rather difficult since synaptic vesicles are normally distributed over the entire nerve terminal. After long and thorough discussions with Bill Betz, Chuck Stevens and other leading scientist in the field of synaptic neuroscience, we together with Bert Sakmann tried to define a morphological correlate for the functionally defined pools using a perimeter analysis. We defined the readily releasable pool as vesicles 10 to 20 nm away from the presynaptic active zone, the recycling pool as those in 60-200 nm distance and the remaining as those belonging to the resting pool. However, it has been shown by capacitance measurements (see for example Hallermann et al 2003), FM1-43 investigations (see for example Henkel et al. 1996) and high-resolution electron microscopy (see for example Schikorski and Stevens 2001; Schikorski 2014) that our estimate of the RRP nearly perfectly matches with the functionally defined pools at hippocampal and cortical synapses (Silver et al. 2003). In addition, in one of our own papers (Rollenhagen et al. 2018) we also estimated the RP functionally from trains of EPSPs using an exponential fit analysis and came to similar results upon its size using the perimeter analysis.

      Of course, as stated by the reviewer the scenario could be more complex, using other criteria but we never claimed that our morphologically defined pools are the truth but nothing as the truth but we believe it offers a quite good approximation.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Abstract:

      Avoid the numerous abbreviations in the abstract. The paragraph describing the results obtained in this study is too short. Include more results, such as the size of the active zone, the proportion of perforated synapses, the ratio of synapses terminating on dendrites/spines, the percentage of volume occupied by mitochondria, etc. In the last paragraph, compare the layer-specific data to other layers of the neocortex before writing the concluding sentence.

      To meet the word limits of the abstract (150 words) defined by eLife we had to use abbreviations. We followed the suggestions by the reviewer and expanded our abstract by adding the proportion of macular vs. perforated active zone and the percentage of mitochondria within an SB. However, we did not include the comparison of structural parameters in the Abstract since this is discussed thoroughly in the MS at other places (see Results and Discussion).

      Results:

      First of all, wonderful data! Lots of work, very valuable quantitative electron microscopy results.

      Main concerns:

      Adding several analyses would give much more information about the cortical synaptic organization. It would be very useful to differentiate between excitatory and inhibitory terminals (and give their ratio) and include this information in all different analyses, such as in the SV number, SV pool analysis, mitochondrion analysis, etc., that would give functional information as well. You have all the data for this, and you know how to differentiate between inhibitory and excitatory synapses, it can be done. We could see the possible morphological differences between excitatory and inhibitory synapses (maybe one is larger/has more SVs, etc. than the other). Based on these possible differences conclusions could be drawn about functional hypotheses, such as one or the other is more efficient in inducing postsynaptic potentials, excitation or inhibition is more pronounced in layer 1, etc. Furthermore, looking at the ratio of perforated synapses, we could gain information about the formation of new synapses. Maybe there is a difference between excitatory and inhibitory circuits in this point of view.

      To the first point: Since our focus was on excitatory synaptic boutons as already stated in the title we have not analyzed inhibitory SBs. To do so, we have to re-analyze our complete data which is time-consuming and an additional workload. However, we can give a ratio excitatory vs. inhibitory synaptic boutons which was between 10-15% but with layer-specific differences. Our finding are in good agreement with a recent publication in Science by the Lichtman group (Shapson-Coe et al. 2024) and work by the DeFelipe group (Cano-Astorga et al. 2023, 2024) estimating the number of inhibitory boutons in different layers of the temporal lobe neocortex as we did by 10-15%. We included a small paragraph about inhibitory synapses, their percentage and included the citations in our Results section. Concerning the ratio between macular, non-perforated vs. perforated active zones we stated the majority of synaptic boutons were of the macular, non-perforated type (~75%; see improved version of the MS). If perforated, this was found predominantly on the postsynaptic site, but quite rare in L1 SBs. Since GABAergic terminals had only a small or no clearly visible PSD this would be hard to look at.

      To the last point, it has been demonstrated that the number of dense core vesicles and their fusion with the presynaptic density could be a critical factor in the build-up of the active zone. In addition, the findings of the Geinismann group suggesting that perforated synapses are more efficient than non-perforated ones is nowadays very controversially discussed since other factors such as size of the active zone (see for example Matz et al. 2010; Holderith et al. 2012) and the astrocytic coverage contribute to synaptic efficacy and strength.

      Related to this topic: although in the case of rat CA1 pyramidal cells all inhibitory synapses terminated on dendritic shafts (Megias et al., Neuroscience 2001), please be aware that both excitatory and inhibitory synapses can terminate on both dendritic shafts and spines in humans (inhibitory synapses are though rare on spines, usually less than 10%, but they do exist, see for example Wittner et al, Neuroscience, 2001). Please, define the excitatory/inhibitory nature of the synapses based on morphological features (not on their postsynaptic target), i.e., flattened vesicles and thin postsynaptic density for GABAergic synapses, whereas larger, round vesicles and thick postsynaptic density for glutamatergic synapses. Anyway, the ratio of excitatory and inhibitory synapses on dendrites and spines in the two sublamina would also give useful information about the synaptic organization of the human neocortical layer 1.

      We are aware that not all terminals targeting on spines are excitatory, in turn it has been shown that not all terminals on shafts were inhibitory as long thought (Silver et al. 2003). However, as stated by the reviewer their abundancy on spines is rather low. At the moment it is rather unclear which functional impact inhibitory terminals on spines have, despite a local inhibition (see for example Kubota et al. eLife 2015), and thus their role is rather speculative since excitatory synapses are the predominant class on dendritic spines. As already stated above the ratio of excitatory vs. inhibitory terminals is between 10-15% and not significantly different between the two sublaminae. We are willing to add this in the results section (see in the improved version of the manuscript).

      (2) About the glial coverage: Please, specify how glial elements were determined. What were the morphological features specific to astroglial processes? In Figure 5, how could we know whether the glial element marked by green is not a spine neck? The lack of morphological features specific to glial processes makes this analysis weak. The most accurate would be to make it with the aid of GFAP staining. I know this is not possible with your existing data, but at least, provide information on how glial processes were identified.

      We used the criteria first described by Peters et al. (1991) and Ventura and Harris (1999) identifying astrocytic profiles by their irregular stellate shape, relatively clear cytoplasm, numerous glycogen granules and bundles of intermediate filaments. After more than 20 years of structural investigations, we hope that the reviewers will believe us that we can identify astrocytic processes at the high-resolution TEM level. In some of our publications (Rollenhagen et al. 2007; 2015; 2018; Yakoubi et al. 2019a) we have used glutamine synthetase pre-embedding immunhistochemistry to identify astrocytic processes, but a disadvantage of this method is the reduction of the ultrastructural preservation of the tissue. We have included the criteria to identify astrocytic processes of glial coverage in our manuscript together with the two citations (see improved version of the manuscript).

      (3) The authors state that the total number of SVs was very variable. How was the distribution of the number of SVs? Homogenous distribution suggests that different types of synapses cannot be distinguished based on their morphological features, whereas distribution with more than one peak would suggest that different types of synapses are present in L1, and that they can be differentiated by their appearance (number of SVs, for example). This might be also related to the type of synapse (i.e., excitatory or inhibitory). The same applies to the number of RP and resting pool SVs.

      To look for differences in structural and synaptic parameters that can further classify synaptic boutons we have performed a hierarchical cluster and multivariance analysis. However, it turned out that according to structural and functional parameters no further classification into subtypes could be done.

      (4) The authors should check and review extensively for improvements to the use of English. The Results and Discussion sections contain many sentences which are not easy to understand. They have either a too complicated structure, or they are incomplete and hard to follow. Few examples: "The RRP/PreAZ at p20 nm criterium was on average 19.05 {plus minus} 17.23 SVs (L1a: 25.04 {plus minus} 21.09 SVs and L1b: 13.07 {plus minus} 13.87SVs) and thus nearly 2-fold larger for L1a." If you take out the parenthesis, the sentence has no meaning. "The majority of SBs in L1 of the human TLN had a single at most three AZs that could be of the non-perforated macular or perforated type comparable with results for other layers in the human TLN but by ~1.5-fold larger than in rodent and non-human primates." Rephrase these types of sentences, please.

      We partially agree with the reviewer. We have improved our manuscript by rephrasing and shortening sentences.

      Other suggestions:

      (1) Put the synaptic density part after the description of the neuronal and synaptic composition part, it is more logical this way (i.e., first qualitative description, the distinction between sublayers, then quantitative data). Please write down in the description of the neuronal and synaptic composition part how L1a and L1b were differentiated (see also my comment on Figure 1).

      We agree with the reviewer and did the change according to the suggestion. For a better understanding, we have also expanded the neuronal and synaptic description of the two sublaminae in L1.

      (2) Introduce a list of abbreviations at the beginning, that would help.

      It is quite unusual to provide a list of abbreviations in eLife. However, when used first the full meaning of the abbreviations is now given.

      (3) What is cleft width? Usually, it refers to the distance between the pre- and the postsynaptic membrane, but here, I think it refers to the size (diameter) of the active zone. Please, clarify in the Result section (as it appears earlier than the Methods section, where it is explained). I would probably use the expression "synaptic cleft size" instead of "synaptic cleft width" to avoid misunderstanding.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion and used synaptic cleft size for better clarity and have transferred the sentence from the Material and Methods to the Results section.

      (4) The description of the different SVs (RRP, RP, etc.) is not clear in lines 236-242. What does it mean, that RRP vesicles are located {less than or equal to}10 nm and {less than or equal to}20 nm from the active zone? Explain, why the two different distance criteria were used. Furthermore, how were the vesicles located at p20-p60 defined? Why were these vesicles not considered in the determination of the different pools?

      As stated in the public review to the reviewers concern we have tried to define a morphological correlate to the three functionally defined pools. After thorough discussions, with leading scientists in the field of synaptic neuroscience we have decided to use the distance of individual vesicles from the PreAZ and sort vesicles upon these criteria. One can argue that this approach is random, however, these distance criteria were described by Rizzoli and Betz (2004, 2005) and Denker and Rizzoli (2010). As also stated in the public review there is still a controversial discussion whether only docked or omega-shaped SVs constitute the RRP. We decided that also those very close within 10 and 20 nm away from the PreAZ, which is less than a SV diameter may also contribute to the RRP since it was shown that SVs are quite mobile.

      (5) Please, explain how the number of docked vesicles can be 3x larger in L1b, than the number of vesicles located at p10? Docked vesicles are the closest (with the membrane touching the PreAZ)... if this comes from the fact that another pool of boutons was used for the EM tomography analysis, then the entire pool of boutons analyzed, then it means that the selection of boutons for the EM tomography is highly biased. This also implies that EM tomography data are most probably not valid for the entire L1b. The difference might also come from the different ratios of dendrite/spine synapses included in the two different analyses. In this case, it would be helpful to distinguish between synapses terminating on dendrites/spines and analyse them separately (same as for inhibitory/excitatory, which is not exactly the same as dendrite/spine!). Different n numbers of synapses are given in the text (n=25, 25, 25 25) and in Table 2 (n=91, 98, 87, and 84) for the analysis of the docked vesicles, please, correct this.

      This is a correct value and thus there is a nearly 3-fold difference. The TEM tomography was carried out on the same blocks that have been used for our 3D-volume reconstructions. To carry out TEM tomography we had to use thicker sections (250 nm) to look for complete SBs as we also did in our serial sections, but of course, we could not quantify the same SBs. The completeness of SBs was one of our main criteria to reconstruct structural and synaptic parameters. The second was that the synaptic cleft was cut perpendicular. Only SBs that met these criteria were chosen for further quantitative analysis. In this respect we are of course biased in both methods.

      Secondly, as already stated we did not quantify inhibitory terminals in serial sections. However, we did not find significant differences between shaft vs. spine synapses.

      Finally, in Table 2 the total number of ‘docked’ SVs is given analyzed from the total number of SBs analyzed.

      Discussion:

      Please include the recent findings of human L1 neurons, including the "rosehip" cells in the L1 neuronal network, see Boldog et al., Nat Neurosci 2018. It would be also useful to consider in the discussion the human-specific cortical synchrony and integration phenomena derived from in vitro data (Mansvelder, Lein, Tamas, Wittner, Larkum, Huberfeld labs, etc.), and how the synaptic morphology can be related to these.

      We thank the reviewer and include the reference in our chapter functional significance.

      Figures and Tables:

      Figure 1: In the legend, it is written that CR cells are marked by an asterisk, but on the figure it is marked by arrowheads. H: I would put the dashed line slightly lower, just above the two neuronal cell bodies. Now it looks like in the middle of the astrocytic layer. One of the asterisks marking the CR cell is not above the nucleus of that cell. I: the gabaergic neuron is outside of the framed area. I would delete the frame, anyway, the arrowheads and the asterisk are enough to show what the authors want to show.

      We have changed the Figure according to the suggestions raised by the reviewer.

      Figure 3: The transparent yellow is not visible. It is a bit disturbing that the contours of the boutons are not visible, I would make the transparent yellow stronger (less transparent). The SVs in green/magenta will be still visible.

      We wanted to highlight the internal subelements of SBs and thus made the covering transparent but we think it is still visible.

      Figure 6C: The data concerning other layers than L1 are most probably taken from other publications of the research group. One is cited (for L6), but not the others. Please correct this, or if not, then write this in the Results and Methods.

      We changed the citation in the improved version of the manuscript. We overlooked that the values for L4 and L5 were already published in Schmuhl-Giesen et al. 2022.

      Table 1: What does central and lateral cleft width mean in Table 1? Furthermore, please, give the name for abbreviations CV and IQR in Tables 1 and 2.

      The measurements of the synaptic cleft are now described in detail in the Results section. We now have given the full names for CV and IQR in the legends of tables 1 and 2.

      Supplemental Figures 1 and 2: Why Hu01 and Hu02 are twice? What is the difference? Based on the figure legend, it is L1a and L1b? If yes, please, indicate on the figure or in the legend.<br /> Supplemental Table 1: What is TLE in the case of Hu_04? If it is temporal lobe epilepsy, then why age at epilepsy onset is missing?

      Yes, Hu01 and Hu02 were selected for both L1a and L1b in separate serial sections preparations each. We indicated this now in the figure legend. Concerning Hu_04, unfortunately we do not have any further information about the medical background of the patient.

      Supplemental Table 1 (Patient table), that there are many abbreviations explained which do not appear in the table (lBAZ: Brivaracetam CBZ: Carbamazepine; CLB: Clobazam; ESL: Eslicarbazepin; GGL: Ganglioglioma, etc.), please check and correct.

      We have removed the unnecessary abbreviations.

      Other minor suggestions:

      What is Pr? Please, give the name a first appearance (line 368).

      We explained Pr (release probability) when used for the first time.

      Give the name for t-LDT, please (lines 442-443).

      We explained t-LTD (timing-dependent long-term depression) when used for the first time.

      Typo in line 169: DCW instead of DCV (dense core vesicle), DCV is used in the figure legends.

      We changed DCW to DCV.

      Typo in line 190: Yokoubi instead of Yakoubi (reference).

      We changed Yokoubi to Yakoubi.

      Typo in line 237: Rizzoloi instead of Rizzoli (reference).

      We changed Rizzoloi to Rizzoli.

      Line 229-230: One reference is not inserted properly - Piccolo and Bassoon.

      The reference of Schoch and Gundelfinger and Murkherjee to the build-up of the active zone and the role of DCV containing Piccolo and Bassoon are properly cited in the text.

      Typo in line 398: exit instead of exist.

      Corrected

      Typo in line 700: Reynolds (1063) instead of 1963.

      Corrected

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Abstract:

      The last sentence seems far-fetched, and unrelated to the manuscript. How mostly single active zone boutons can "mediate, integrate and synchronize contextual and cross-modal information, enabling flexible and state-dependent processing of feedforward sensory inputs from other layers of the cortical column"? Which of the anatomical findings of the manuscript led to these conclusions?

      According to the review by Schuman et al. (2021) layer 1 is regarded as a layer that mediate, integrate and synchronize contextual and cross-modal information, enabling flexible and state-dependent processing of feedforward sensory inputs from other layers of the cortical column to which the structural quantitative 3D- models of SBs contribute since they are an integral element connecting neurons and building networks.

      I am also puzzled by the authors' statement in more than one place of the manuscript that "L1a can be characterized as a predominantly astrocytic sublamina". If the L1 contains the lowest measured volume ratio of glial processes (Figure 6), then this description does not seem to hold. Please rephrase.

      The reviewer is right and we rephrased the sentences for more clarity in the improved version of our manuscript.

      Results:

      The authors find large inter-patient variability in the synapse density at L1, which raises the issue of what were the criteria to include certain patients in the analyses. Apparently, these are different from the ones analysed in their previous papers, and all the provided parameters were different (sex, age, medication, onset of epilepsy), and any of them can result in altered synapse density.

      First, we have not used all patients for this study. Secondly, it was not possible to use all patients for all six layers.

      It would be useful to add a panel for Figure 1 with synapse density across the different layers, as they provide this data in the Discussion.

      We implemented a Supplementary Table 1 with the synaptic density values over all layers compared in the Discussion.

      I cannot find Source Data 1 in the manuscript although it is referred to in more than 1 place (e.g. page 5 line 100).

      Source data were uploaded when our manuscript was submitted directly to eLife as Supplemental Material. However, as stated by bioRxiv ‘any Supplemental Materials associated with this manuscript have not been transferred to bioRxiv to avoid the posting of potentially sensitive information’ all source data have not been uploaded to the preprint server.

      Page 5 line 100 the correct value is 7.3*107 or rather 108?

      We corrected the value in the improved version of the MS.

      It would be nice to put the synapse density values into context by comparing them to e.g. mouse, rat, or monkey data.

      Since we are working on the human temporal lobe neocortex we avoided to compare those data with those estimated in experimental animals. In addition as discussed by DeFelipe et al. (1999) different methods were used to quantify synaptic density in experimental animals so these results are difficult to compare.

      Page 5 Line 117 CR-cells stands for Cayal-Retzius cells?

      CR-cells is the abbreviation for Cajal-Retzius cells.

      Page 6 Line 146 repeated sentence.

      We deleted the repeated sentence.

      Page 7 Line 154 "file-scale TEM" ??

      We replaced file-scale by fine-scale.

      Page 7 Line 164 "GABAergic synapses identified by the smaller more spherical SVs". With this fixation condition, GABAergic vesicles are more ovoid than glutamatergic ones. What were the criteria to distinguish them?

      To our knowledge in meanwhile numerous publications using the same fixation inhibitory terminals contain more spherical and smaller and not roundish synaptic vesicles and showed no clear prominent PSDs as described in our paper. We have addressed that more clearly in the results section of the improved version of the MS.

      Page 8 line 197 "The majority (~98%) of SBs in L1a and L1b had only a single (Figures 2C-E, 3A-C, E) at most two or three AZs" is in striking contrast with the other statement from page 7 Line 163 "Numerous SBs in both sublaminae were seen to establish either two or three synaptic contacts on the same spine or dendrite". Which of these statements is valid? Please provide exact quantification for this statement and decide which one is true.

      It is true that the majority of synaptic boutons had a single active zone. However, for example on a spine not only a single but also two or three SBs can be found. We have rephrased this sentence for more clarity.

      Page 9 Line 206 "L1 AZs did not show a large variability in size as indicated by the low SD, CV, and variance (Table 1)" Is this inter-patient variance of mean values? As in Supplementary Figure 1, both the SBs volume and PreAZ area show large variability in a given patient sample. Only the inter-patient variability of mean values seems low. Please state it clearly throughout the MS for other datasets as well.

      For clarity concerning the variability between patients and structural parameters we have generated box plots (Suppl. Figures 1 and 2).

      Page 9 Line 208 data is on Figure 5A and not 8A.

      We thank the reviewer and corrected the citation of the Figure

      Page 12 Line 295 how can the number of docked vesicles for L1b be larger than the one measured by the perimeter p10 nm? This later should contain the docked and PreAZ membrane proximal pool as well. This difference is even larger if we assume, that at EM tomography only partial AZs were analysed in a 200 nm thick section, not the entire AZ as for the perimeter measurement. Can the authors provide density estimates by dividing the docked / p10 nm vesicle numbers with the AZ area and comparing them?

      This is a result comparing both methods. To the second concern: As stated in the text only synaptic boutons were the active zone can be followed from the beginning to its end and were the synaptic cleft was cut perpendicular were included in the TEM tomography sample as we also did in our 3D-volume reconstructions.

      Methods:

      Page 25 Line 624 While the PSD area can be equivocally measured, due to the dense appearance of the PSD on the EM images, the PreAZ is more difficult to outline due to lack of evident anatomical markers except the synaptic cleft (the dense material is much thinner). That is why in many publications the PreAZ area is considered to be identical to the PSD area. What are the anatomical criteria used here for the PreAZ? Why do the authors correct the PSD area, which is easy to measure with the PreAZ area that is much less certain to outline?

      As stated in material and Methods both the pre- and postsynaptic densities are not defined by placing a closed contour in both densities because one can’t be certain that the dense accumulation of particles defining both areas since the impregnation (staining) and contrast of both structures critically depends on the uranyl and lead staining which could led to misinterpretation due to different staining results. That’s why we have drawn a contour line from the beginning to the end of the presynaptic density and extrapolated that for the postsynaptic density (for details see Material and Methods). In our samples both the pre- and postsynaptic densities were always clearly visible in those boutons further analyze.

      Page 26 Line 640 vesicle density measurement: All the synaptic vesicles that are in the 50 nm thick section in their entirety are missed, and there are methods based on EM tomography to correct these estimations. One can not assume, that the error caused by "double counts" of vesicles cancels for the lost ones. There are stereological methods to estimate both types of error please include them and correct the values.

      We would like to point out that the whole body of our work to structural analysis of vesicle pools is based on image data stemming from transmission electron microscopy (TEM) generating a projection of the entire volume of the ultra-thin section and NOT from scanning electron microscopy (SEM) where only a small volume close to the surface of the section would be captured. Operating in TEM mode ensures that no vesicle is missed only because it is embedded in its entirety in the section as postulated by the reviewer. Hence, EM tomography, which is basically a TEM operating from different incident angles in relation to the specimen or section, does not provide any advantage in detecting these vesicles. It does, however, help to better position a 3D object within the section volume itself and therefore allows to detect objects that could overlap from one viewing angle by using another angle. As the average vesicle diameter is of similar size compared to the section thickness, the possibility of a complete overlap to happen, however, is almost zero. And as we only count clear ring-like structures, a stereological correction factor calculated according to Abercrombie (1946) would underestimate real counts (see also Saetzler et al. 2002). If there is, however, relevant literature on "methods based on EM tomography" and "stereological methods to estimate both types of error" (over- and underestimates) that we are missing out on, we would appreciate the reviewer providing us with the corresponding references so that we can include such calculations in our paper.

      Page 27 Line 664 and 665 "sections" are still tissue blocks, as sectioning comes after if the process is correctly written. Please correct.

      We have corrected this according to the reviewer’s comment.

      Page 43 Figure 4 D Data for L1b is missing, only the correlation line is visible.

      Corrected in a new Figure.

      Page 44 Figure 5 C arrowheads are in the correct places? Some of them do not seem to point to the edge of the synapse.

      We carefully checked the Figure and adjusted the arrowheads.

      Figure 5 E lower arrowhead labels something, that is difficult to identify but does not seem to be a vesicle.

      We agree with the reviewer on this point and changed the figure accordingly.

      Figure 5 F, the upper vesicle is at least 10 nm apart from the PreAZ membrane. Did the authors consider it as docked (indicated with arrowhead, according to the legend it labels docked vesicles)?

      We agree with the reviewer on this point and changed the figure accordingly.

      Page 45 Figure 6 B one of the 2 synaptic boutons (sb), sb2 has a tangential active zone that precludes the identification of the pre- and post-synaptic membranes, still 2 "docked vesicles" are labeled. How were they classified as docked? Please remove these tangential synapses from the dataset, as membranes can not be identified.

      The reviewer is right that the active zone is tangentially cut, however, the two vesicles are associated with the AZ. In addition, we did not use this AZ for vesicle data analysis.

      Page 46 Line 1124 interneuron axon labelled in green not brown.

      Corrected as suggested by the reviewer.

      Line 1129 SStC is missing.

      Changed according to the reviewer’s comment.

      Page 48 Table 2 Number of docked vesicles Median values are rounded to integer values? If yes why?

      The statistic package used rounded to the given values.

      Page 51 Supplementary Table 1 Hu_04 Histopathology, what does TLE stands for?

      TLE: temporal lobe epilepsy. We included the abbreviation in the legend of Supplementary Table1, that is now table 2.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Reanalysis of astrocytic coverage based on the % of synapses that form tripartite synapses.

      We have reanalyzed the data concerning this point (new Figure 6D).

      (2) Segregation of excitatory and inhibitory synapses.

      We have now included a paragraph in our results section to distinguish between excitatory and inhibitory synapses.

      (3) Better explanation of the limits of the study to assess functional parameters.

      We disagree with the reviewer on this point and have not included an explanation concerning the limits of this study.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife Assessment 

      This useful study uses high-field fMRI to test the hypothesized involvement of subcortical structure, particularly the striatum, in WM updating. It overcomes limitations in prior work by applying high-field imaging with a more precise definition of ROIs. Thus, the empirical observations are of use to specialists interested in working memory gating or the reference back task specifically. However, evidence to support the broader implications, including working memory gating as a construct, is incomplete and limited by the ambiguities in this task and its connection to theory. 

      We would like to express our gratitude to the editor and the reviewers for their time and effort in providing insightful and valuable comments. We greatly value the critical perspective on the relationship between fMRI contrasts and the PBWM model. We hope to have addressed all the last critical points and changed the manuscript according to the reviewers’ suggestions. Furthermore, we would like to point out that the behavioral results section was edited, as a double-check of the results section revealed some erroneous descriptive statistics.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1:

      Summary: 

      Trutti and colleagues used 7T fMRI to identify brain regions involved in subprocesses of updating the content of working memory. Contrary to past theoretical and empirical claims that the striatum serves a gating function when new information is to be entered into working memory, the relevant contrast during a reference-back task did not reveal significant subcortical activation. Instead, the experiment provided support for the role of subcortical (and cortical) regions in other subprocesses. 

      Strengths: 

      The use of high-field imaging optimized for subcortical regions in conjunction with the theory-driven experimental design mapped well to the focus on a hypothetical striatal gating mechanism. 

      Consideration of multiple subprocesses and the transparent way of identifying these, summarized in a table, will make it easy for future studies to replicate and extend the present experiment.   

      Weaknesses: 

      The reference-back paradigm seems to only require holding a single letter in working memory (X or O; Figure 1). It remains unclear how such low demand on working memory influences associated fMRI updating responses. It is also not clear whether reference-switch trials with 'same' response truly tax working-memory updating (and gate opening), as the working-memory content/representation does not need to be updated in this case. These potential design issues, together with the rather low number of experimental trials, raise concerns about the demonstrated absence of evidence for striatal gate opening. 

      We acknowledge that a limitation of our study is that the task involved relatively low working memory demands. It remains to be clarified whether the same neural mechanisms would be engaged under a higher working memory load, and this is an important consideration for future research.

      We also fully agree that it is uncertain whether reference-switch trials requiring a ‘same’ (or ‘match’ ) response truly engage working memory updating (or gate opening), as the working memory content or representation does not need to be altered in these cases. This concern is addressed in detail in the discussion section titled “No Support for Striatal Gate Opening” (see second paragraph).

      Regarding our references to dopamine, we completely agree with the reviewer about the speculative nature of these discussions. In response, we thoroughly reviewed the manuscript and made revisions where necessary to ensure that we consistently emphasize the speculative nature of our commentary on dopamine and dopaminergic pathways.

      Finally, we acknowledge the concerns about the design and the relatively low number of trials. However, our fMRI analyses of other reference-back task contrasts did reveal activity in the striatum and other subcortical ROIs. This suggests that our scanning protocol and task design are sufficiently sensitive to detect striatal activity, even with the limited number of trials.

      The authors provide a motivation for their multi-step approach to fMRI analyses. Still, the three subsections of fMRI results (3.2.1; 3.2.2; 3.3.3) for 4 subprocesses each (gate opening, gate closing, substitution, updating mode) made the Results section complex and it was not always easy to understand why some but not other approaches revealed significant effects (as the midbrain in gate opening). 

      We thank the reviewer for this important remark and the opportunity to clarify our approach. We conducted whole-brain general linear models (GLMs) to generate a comprehensive wholebrain map of brain activity for each contrast. However, the whole-brain statistical parametric mappings (SPMs) involve data smoothing, which–while improving signal detection–reduces spatial precision. This is especially problematic in smaller or closely adjacent regions, where spatial blurring can merge distinct activations or make localized signals appear more widespread.

      Additionally, the statistical thresholds in whole-brain analyses may detect weak or borderline significant effects, whereas ROI-wise GLMs, which assume uniform behavior across the entire region, may miss the same effects if the signal is weak or inconsistent across the ROI.

      Since our primary focus was on the subcortex, we relied more heavily on ROI-wise GLMs, which were limited to subcortical regions. We prioritized findings that were supported by either the ROI-wise GLMs or by both GLM analyses. For instance, the midbrain activations found in our whole-brain analysis but not in the ROI analysis may result from smoothing (where activation from neighboring regions spreads into midbrain voxels) or from functional heterogeneity within the ROI, which can obscure localized activations when averaged in the ROI-wise GLMs. Inferences from each GLM approach, along with their discrepancies, are discussed for each contrast throughout the discussion, with additional details on the clusterbased ROI analysis in the discussion section titled “Dopaminergic involvement in working memory substitution” (see third paragraph).

      We acknowledge that the results section may seem complex, and we apologize for any inconvenience this may cause.

      Reviewer #2:

      Summary: 

      The study reported by Trutti et al. uses high-field fMRI to test the hypothesized involvement of subcortical structure, particularly striatum, in WM updating. Specifically, participants were scanned while performing the Reference Back task (e.g., Rac-Lubashevsky and Kessler, 2016), which tests constructs like working memory gate opening and closing and substitution. While striatal activation was involved in substitution, it was not observed in gate opening. This observation is cited as a challenge to cortico-striatal models of WM gating, like PBWM (Frank and O'Reilly, 2005). 

      Strengths: 

      While there have been prior fMRI studies of the reference back task (Nir-Cohen et al., 2020), the present study overcomes limitations in prior work, particularly with regard to subcortical structures, by applying high-field imaging with a more precise definition of ROIs. And, the fMRI methods are careful and rigorous, overall. Thus, the empirical observations here are useful and will be of interest to specialists interested in working memory gating or the reference back task specifically. 

      Weaknesses: 

      I am less persuaded by the more provocative points regarding the challenge it presents to models like PBWM, made in several places by the paper. As detailed below, issues with conceptual clarity of the main constructs and their connection to models, like PBWM, along with some incomplete aspects of the results, make this stronger conclusion less compelling. 

      (1) The relationship of the Nir-Cohen et al. (2020) task analysis of the reference back task, with its contrasts like gate opening and closing, and the predictions of PBWM is far from clear to me for several reasons. 

      First, contrasts like gate opening and gate closing make strong finite state assumptions. As far as I know, this is not an assumption of PBWM, certainly not for gate opening. At a minimum, PBWM is default closed because of the tonic inhibition of cortico-thalamic dynamics by the globus pallidus. Indeed, this was even noted in the discussion of this paper, which seems to acknowledge this discrepancy, but then goes on to conclude that they have challenged the PBWM model anyway.  

      We thank the reviewer for this remark and agree that the reference-back task contrasts do not perfectly align with the predictions of the PBWM model. In the discussion section "No support for striatal gate opening," we note that our data support the PBWM model by emphasizing the central role of the basal ganglia in working memory processes. However, we acknowledge that it may not have been sufficiently clear in the manuscript that the way the reference-back task is operationalised does not allow for a precise test of the PBWM's gating predictions. To address this, we have revised the manuscript to shift focus away from framing it as a direct challenge to the PBWM model. Below, some edits are highlighted.

      ‘This contrasts with the findings of Nir-Cohen et al. (2020) and raises questions about the relationship between the gate opening process in the reference back task and the indirect striatal gating mechanism described in the PBWM model (Frank et al., 2001; Hazy et al., 2007; O’Reilly & Frank, 2006) and other neurocomputational theories (Hazy et al., 2007; Jongkees, 2020). According to these models, a dopaminergic signal in the striatum is required to trigger gating. Although the orthogonal contrasts in the referenceback task are intended to isolate working memory subprocesses inspired by models of working memory, the two gating contrasts do not fully capture the gating mechanism as originally proposed in neurocomputational models (Frank et al., 2001; Hazy et al., 2007; O’Reilly & Frank, 2006).’ (line 721-730)

      ‘Another explanation for the lack of enhanced striatal activity in gate opening challenges the conceptualization of the gating mechanism in the reference-back task, which does not accurately map onto the PBWM predictions.’ (line 746)

      ‘Moreover, despite the lack of striatal involvement during gate opening, our findings do not rule out the possibility that the PBWM model's predictions about striatal gating in working memory are correct, given the misalignment between the gate opening contrast and the PBWM’s proposal regarding striatal gating. It remains unclear whether the absence of striatal activation during gate opening trials is specific to low-demand tasks, like the reference-back task, which does not require as much gating compared to high working memory-demand tasks involving preparation for updating. Or whether the gate opening contrast does not sufficiently capture the PBWM proposed gating mechanism. Further investigation is needed to determine whether (dopamine-driven) striatal gating occurs in high-demand working memory tasks, where the gating process plays a more critical role.’

      Second, as far as I know, PBWM emphasizes go/no-go processes around constructs of input- and output-gating, rather than state shifts between gate opening and closing. While this relationship is less clear in reference back, substituting task-relevant items into working memory does appear to be an example of input gating, as modeled by PBWM. Thus, it is not clear to me why the substitution contrast would not be more of a test of input gating than the gate opening contrast, which requires assumptions that are not clear are required by the model, as noted above. 

      We fully agree with the reviewer, which is why we proposed that neural mechanisms involving the midbrain and striatum are more likely to be observed in the substitution contrast rather than the gate opening contrast.

      Third, PBWM relies on striatal mechanisms to solve the problem of selective gating, inputting, or outputting items in memory while also holding on to others. Selective gating contrasts with global gating, in which everything in memory is gated or nothing. The reference back task is a test of global gating. It is an important distinction because non-striatal mechanisms that can solve global gating, cannot solve selective gating. Indeed, this limitation of non-striatal mechanisms was the rationale for PBWM adding striatum. The connectivity of the striatum with the cortex permits this selectivity. It is not clear that the reference back task tests these selective demands in the first place. That limitation in this task was the rationale behind the recent Rac-Lubashevsky and Frank (2022) paper using the reference back 2 procedure that modifies the original reference back for selective gating. 

      We thank the reviewer for highlighting this excellent reference. We believe it holds exciting potential for future high-field fMRI studies that explore the neural mechanisms underlying selective gating.

      So, if the primary contribution of the paper is to test PBWM, as suggested by the first line of the abstract, then it is not clear that the reference back task in general, or the gate opening contrast in particular, is the best test of these predictions. Other contrasts (substitution), or indeed, tasks (reference back 2) would have been better suited. 

      We agree with the reviewer that the gate opening contrast may not be the optimal test for the PBWM model predictions. However, previous studies have found evidence of striatal gateopening mechanisms using the reference-back task, which cannot be overlooked. We hypothesized that striatal mechanisms are likely active only when working memory content requires replacement, as seen in the substitution contrast in line with the PBWM model. Additionally, the reference-back 2 task (Rac-Lubashevsky & Frank, 2021) had not yet been published when we began data collection. Exploring this task in future studies, particularly with a 7 T fMRI protocol optimized for subcortical regions, would be an exciting avenue for further investigation.

      Finally, in response to the reviewer’s remark, we have revised the abstract to remove the emphasis on challenging the PBWM model.

      (2) In general, observations of univariate activity in the striatum have been notoriously variable in the context of WM. Indeed, Chatham et al. (2014) who tested working memory output gating - notably in a direct test of the predictions of PBWM - noted this variability. They too did not observe univariate activation in the striatum associated with selective output gating. Rather they found evidence of increased connectivity between the striatum and cortex during selective output gating. They argued that one account of this difference is that striatal gating dynamics emerge from the balance between the firing of both Go and NoGo cell populations that decide whether to gate or not. It is not always clear how this balance should relate to univariate activation in the striatum. Thus, the present study might also test cortico-striatal connectivity, rather than relying exclusively on univariate activation, in their test of striatal involvement in these WM constructs. 

      We appreciate the reviewer’s insightful observation regarding the variability of univariate activity in the striatum, particularly in the context of working memory and the challenges noted by Chatham et al. (2014). We agree that striatal gating dynamics likely reflect a balance between Go and NoGo cell populations, which may not always manifest in univariate activation alone. In line with the reviewer’s suggestion, examining cortico-striatal connectivity could provide a more comprehensive understanding of striatal involvement in working memory processes, particularly selective gating.

      While our current study focused primarily on univariate activity, we recognize the importance of connectivity-based approaches and plan to incorporate functional connectivity analyses in future studies to further explore these dynamics. Such an approach, especially when combined with ultra-high-field fMRI, may offer valuable insights into the interaction between the striatum and cortex during working memory tasks.

      (3) It is concerning that there was no behavioral cost for comparison switch vs. repeat trials. This differs from with prior observations from the reference back (e.g., Nir-Cohen et al., 2020), and in general, is odd given the task switch/cue interpretation component. This failure to observe a basic behavioral effect raises a concern about how participants approached this task and how that might differ from prior reports of the reference back. If they were taking an unusual strategy, it further complicates the interpretation of these results and the implications they hold for theory. 

      We understand the reviewer’s concern regarding the lack of behavioral response time costs for comparison switch versus repeat trials, which does indeed differ from previous findings in studies such as Nir-Cohen et al. (2020). It is possible that this results from our fMRI task design, such as increased inter-trial intervals compared to behavioral studies. While this is certainly a point of concern, we believe that the neural data still provide valuable insights into the mechanisms underlying working memory gating despite the absence of a clear behavioral effect.

      In future studies, we aim to increase the number of trials and more closely align our task design with previous studies to mitigate this issue. We agree that further investigation is necessary to ensure the robustness of these effects and their theoretical implications.

      In summary, the present observations are useful, particularly for those interested in the reference back task. For example, they might call into question verbal theories and task analyses of the reference back task that tie constructs like gate-opening to striatal mechanisms. However, given the ambiguities noted above, the broader implications for models like PBWM, or indeed, other models of working memory gating, are less clear.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the current reviews.

      Those comments are all valuable and very helpful for revising and improving our paper, as well as the important guiding significance to our researches. We have studied comments carefully and have made correction which we hope meet with approval.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The manuscript by Ma et al. describes a multi-model (pig, mouse, organoid) investigation into how fecal transplants protect against E. coli infection. The authors identify A. muciniphila and B. fragilis as two important strains and characterize how these organisms impact the epithelium by modulating host signaling pathways, namely the Wnt pathway in lgr5 intestinal stem cells.

      Strengths:

      The strengths of this manuscript include the use of multiple model systems and follow up mechanistic investigations to understand how A. muciniphila and B. fragilis interacted with the host to impact epithelial physiology.

      Weaknesses:

      As in previous revisions, there remains concerning ambiguity in the methodology used for microbiota sequence analysis and it would be difficult to replicate the analysis in any meaningful way. In this revision, concerns about the rigor and reproducibility of this component of the manuscript have been increased. Readers should be cautious with interpretation of this data.

      (1) In previous versions of the manuscript it would appear the correct bioproject accession was listed but, the actual link went to an unrelated project. The updated accession link appears to contain raw data; however, the authors state they used an Illumina HiSeq 2500. This would be an unusual choice for V3-V4 as it would not have read lengths long enough to overlap. Inspection of the first sample (SRR19164796) demonstrates that this is absolutely not the raw data, as there is a ~400 nt forward read, and a 0 length reverse read. All quality scores are set to 30. There is no logical way to go from HiSeq 2500 raw data and read lengths to what was uploaded to the SRA and it was certainly not described in the manuscript.

      What we uploaded to the SRA was Contigs files for sample, we have modified the description on line 694.

      (2) No multiple testing correction was applied to the microbiome data.

      The alpha diversity indexes were tested using T-test and wilcox test, and we showed the result of T-test in FigureS1B. The p-values were corrected for multiple testing using the Benjamini-Hochberg method, we have modified the description on line 322.

      ---------

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Ma X. et al proposed that A. muciniphila was a key strain that promotes the proliferation and differentiation of intestinal stem cells through acting on the Wnt/β-catenin signaling pathway. They used various models, such as piglet model, mouse model and intestinal organoids to address how A. muciniphila and B. fragilis offer the protection against ETEC infection. They showed that FMT with fecal samples, A. muciniphila or B. fragilis protected piglets and/or mice from ETEC infection, and this protection is manifested as reduced intestinal inflammation/bacterial colonization, increased tight junction/Muc2 proteins, as well as proper Treg/Th17 cells. Additionally, they demonstrated that A. muciniphila protected basal-out and/or apical-out intestinal organoids against ETEC infection via Wnt signaling.

      Comments on revised version:

      Please add proper references to indicate the invasion of ETEC into organoids after 1 h of infection.

      We have added references on line 211.

      References:

      Xiao K, Yang Y, Zhang Y, Lv QQ, Huang FF, Wang D, Zhao JC, Liu YL. 2022. Long-chain PUFA ameliorate enterotoxigenic Escherichia coli-induced intestinal inflammation and cell injury by modulating pyroptosis and necroptosis signaling pathways in porcine intestinal epithelial cells. Br. J. Nutr. 128(5):835-850.

      Qian MQ, Zhou XC, Xu TT, Li M, Yang ZR, Han XY. 2023. Evaluation of Potential Probiotic Properties of Limosilactobacillus fermentum Derived from Piglet Feces and Influence on the Healthy and E. coli-Challenged Porcine Intestine. Microorganisms. 11(4).

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The manuscript by Ma et al. describes a multi-model (pig, mouse, organoid) investigation into how fecal transplants protect against E. coli infection. The authors identify A. muciniphila and B. fragilis as two important strains and characterize how these organisms impact the epithelium by modulating host signaling pathways, namely the Wnt pathway in lgr5 intestinal stem cells.

      Strengths:

      The strengths of this manuscript include the use of multiple model systems and follow up mechanistic investigations to understand how A. muciniphila and B. fragilis interacted with the host to impact epithelial physiology.

      Weaknesses:

      After an additional revision, the bioinformatics section of the methods has changed significantly from previous versions and now indicates a third sequencer was used instead: Ion S5 XL. Important parameters required to replicate analysis have still not been provided. Inspection of the SRA data indicates a mix of Illumina MiSeq and Illumina HiSeq 2500. It is now unclear which sequencing technology was used as authors have variably reported 4 different sequencers for these samples. Appropriate metadata was not provided in the SRA, although some groups may be inferred from sample names. These changing descriptions of the methodologies and ambiguity in making the data available create concerns about rigor of study and results.

      Due to confusing the sequencing method of this experiment with other experiment samples, we apologize for the multiple incorrect modifications of the method description. We have modified the method for microbiome sequencing technology on line 304. The sequencing technology is Illumina HiSeq 2500. The SRA metadata can be viewed at https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sra/PRJNA837047. The sample names ep1-6 and ef1-6 were correspond to the EP and EF groups, respectively.

      Recommendations For the Authors:

      As in the previous revision:

      -provide important parameters required to replicate analysis

      -ensure that reporting of sequencing technology is correct as data listed on SRA appears to be derived from Illumina sequencers, and was deposited indicating as such.

      -update SRA metadata such that experimental groups are clear and match the nomenclature used in the manuscript (Particularly for samples which are labelled [A-Z][0-9]

      - The multiple testing correction wasn’t applied.

      -Due to confusing the sequencing method of this experiment with other experiment samples, we apologize for the multiple incorrect modifications of the method description. We have modified the method for microbiome sequencing technology on line 304. The sequencing technology is Illumina HiSeq 2500.

      - The SRA metadata can be viewed at https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sra/PRJNA837047. The sample names ep1-6 and ef1-6 were correspond to the EP and EF groups, respectively.

    1. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Using a gerbil model, the authors tested the hypothesis that loss of synapses between sensory hair cells and auditory nerve fibers (which may occur due to noise exposure or aging) affects behavioral discrimination of the rapid temporal fluctuations of sounds. In contrast to previous suggestions in the literature, their results do not support this hypothesis; young animals treated with a compound that reduces the number of synapses did not show impaired discrimination compared to controls. Additionally, their results from older animals showing impaired discrimination suggest that age-related changes aside from synaptopathy are responsible for the age-related decline in discrimination.

      Strengths:

      (1) The rationale and hypothesis are well-motivated and clearly presented.

      (2) The study was well conducted with strong methodology for the most part, and good experimental control. The combination of physiological and behavioral techniques is powerful and informative. Reducing synapse counts fairly directly using ouabain is a cleaner design than using noise exposure or age (as in other studies), since these latter modifiers have additional effects on auditory function.

      (3) The study may have a considerable impact on the field. The findings could have important implications for our understanding of cochlear synaptopathy, one of the most highly researched and potentially impactful developments in hearing science in the past fifteen years.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) My main concern is that the stimuli may not have been appropriate for assessing neural temporal coding behaviorally. Human studies using the same task employed a filter center frequency that was (at least) 11 times the fundamental frequency (Marmel et al., 2015; Moore and Sek, 2009). Moore and Sek wrote: "the default (recommended) value of the centre frequency is 11F0." Here, the center frequency was only 4 or 8 times the fundamental frequency (4F0 or 8F0). Hence, relative to harmonic frequency, the harmonic spacing was considerably greater in the present study. By my calculations, the masking noise used in the present study was also considerably lower in level relative to the harmonic complex than that used in the human studies. These factors may have allowed the animals to perform the task using cues based on the pattern of activity across the neural array (excitation pattern cues), rather than cues related to temporal neural coding. The authors show that mean neural driven rate did not change with frequency shift, but I don't understand the relevance of this. It is the change in response of individual fibers with characteristic frequencies near the lowest audible harmonic that is important here.

      The case against excitation pattern cues needs to be better made in the Discussion. It could be that gerbil frequency selectivity is broad enough for this not to be an issue, but more detail needs to be provided to make this argument. The authors should consider what is the lowest audible harmonic in each case for their stimuli, given the level of each harmonic and the level of the pink noise. Even for the 8F0 center frequency, the lowest audible harmonic may be as low as the 4th (possibly even the 3rd). In human, harmonics are thought to be resolvable by the cochlea up to at least the 8th.

      (2) The synapse reductions in the high ouabain and old groups were relatively small (mean of 19 synapses per hair cell compared to 23 in the young untreated group). In contrast, in some mouse models of the effects of noise exposure or age, a 50% reduction in synapses is observed, and in the human temporal bone study of Wu et al. (2021, https://doi.org/10.1523/JNEUROSCI.3238-20.2021) the age-related reduction in auditory nerve fibres was ~50% or greater for the highest age group across cochlear location. It could be simply that the synapse loss in the present study was too small to produce significant behavioral effects. Hence, although the authors provide evidence that in the gerbil model the age-related behavioral effects are not due to synaptopathy, this may not translate to other species (including human). This should be discussed in the manuscript.

      It would be informative to provide synapse counts separately for the animals who were tested behaviorally, to confirm that the pattern of loss across the group was the same as for the larger sample.

      (3) The study was not pre-registered, and there was no a priori power calculation, so there is less confidence in replicability than could have been the case. Only three old animals were used in the behavioral study, which raises concerns about the reliability of comparisons involving this group.

    2. Author response:

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors investigate the effects of aging on auditory system performance in understanding temporal fine structure (TFS), using both behavioral assessments and physiological recordings from the auditory periphery, specifically at the level of the auditory nerve. This dual approach aims to enhance understanding of the mechanisms underlying observed behavioral outcomes. The results indicate that aged animals exhibit deficits in behavioral tasks for distinguishing between harmonic and inharmonic sounds, which is a standard test for TFS coding. However, neural responses at the auditory nerve level do not show significant differences when compared to those in young, normal-hearing animals. The authors suggest that these behavioral deficits in aged animals are likely attributable to dysfunctions in the central auditory system, potentially as a consequence of aging. To further investigate this hypothesis, the study includes an animal group with selective synaptic loss between inner hair cells and auditory nerve fibers, a condition known as cochlear synaptopathy (CS). CS is a pathology associated with aging and is thought to be an early indicator of hearing impairment. Interestingly, animals with selective CS showed physiological and behavioral TFS coding similar to that of the young normal-hearing group, contrasting with the aged group's deficits. Despite histological evidence of significant synaptic loss in the CS group, the study concludes that CS does not appear to affect TFS coding, either behaviorally or physiologically.

      We agree with the reviewer’s summary.

      Strengths:

      This study addresses a critical health concern, enhancing our understanding of mechanisms underlying age-related difficulties in speech intelligibility, even when audiometric thresholds are within normal limits. A major strength of this work is the comprehensive approach, integrating behavioral assessments, auditory nerve (AN) physiology, and histology within the same animal subjects. This approach enhances understanding of the mechanisms underlying the behavioral outcomes and provides confidence in the actual occurrence of synapse loss and its effects. The study carefully manages controlled conditions by including five distinct groups: young normal-hearing animals, aged animals, animals with CS induced through low and high doses, and a sham surgery group. This careful setup strengthens the study's reliability and allows for meaningful comparisons across conditions. Overall, the manuscript is well-structured, with clear and accessible writing that facilitates comprehension of complex concepts.

      Weaknesses:

      The stimulus and task employed in this study are very helpful for behavioral research, and using the same stimulus setup for physiology is advantageous for mechanistic comparisons. However, I have some concerns about the limitations in auditory nerve (AN) physiology. Due to practical constraints, it is not feasible to record from a large enough population of fibers that covers a full range of best frequencies (BFs) and spontaneous rates (SRs) within each animal. This raises questions about how representative the physiological data are for understanding the mechanism in behavioral data. I am curious about the authors' interpretation of how this stimulus setup might influence results compared to methods used by Kale and Heinz (2010), who adjusted harmonic frequencies based on the characteristic frequency (CF) of recorded units. While, the harmonic frequencies in this study are fixed across all CFs, meaning that many AN fibers may not be tuned closely to the stimulus frequencies.

      We chose the stimuli for the AN recordings to be identical to the stimuli used in the behavioral evaluation of the perceptual sensitivity. Only with this approach can we directly compare the response of the population of AN fibres with perception measured in behaviour. We will address this more clearly in the revision.

      If units are not responsive to the stimulus further clarification on detecting mistuning and phase locking to TFS effects within this setup would be valuable.

      It is unclear to us what the reviewer alludes to. We ask to rephrase the question.

      Given the limited number of units per condition-sometimes as few as three for certain conditions - I wonder if CF-dependent variability might impact the results of the AN data in this study and discussing this factor can help with better understanding the results. While the use of the same stimuli for both behavioral and physiological recordings is understandable, a discussion on how this choice affects interpretation would be beneficial. In addition a 60 dB stimulus could saturate high spontaneous rate (HSR) AN fibers, influencing neural coding and phase-locking to TFS. Potentially separating SR groups, could help address these issues and improve interpretive clarity.

      In the discussion of a revised version of the manuscript, we will point out the pros and cons of using fixed-level stimuli that were not adjusted in frequency to the BF.

      A deeper discussion on the role of fiber spontaneous rate could also enhance the study. How might considering SR groups affect AN results related to TFS coding? While some statistical measures are included in the supplement, a more detailed discussion in the main text could help in interpretation. We do not think that it will be necessary to conduct any statistical analysis in addition to that already reported in the supplement.

      We will consider moving some supplementary information back into the main manuscript when revising.

      Although Figure S2 indicates no change in median SR, the high-dose treatment group lacks LSR fibers, suggesting a different distribution based on SR for different animal groups, as seen in similar studies on other species. A histogram of these results would be informative, as LSR fiber loss with CS-whether induced by ouabain in gerbils or noise in other animals-is well documented (e.g., Furman et al., 2013).

      We will add information on the distribution when revising.

      Although ouabain effects on gerbils have been explored in previous studies, since these data already seems to be recorded for the animal in this study, a brief description of changes in auditory brainstem response (ABR) thresholds, wave 1 amplitudes, and tuning curves for animals with cochlear synaptopathy (CS) in this study would be beneficial. This would confirm that ouabain selectively affects synapses without impacting outer hair cells (OHCs). For aged animals, since ABR measurements were taken, comparing hearing differences between normal and aged groups could provide insights into the pathologies besides CS in aged animals. Additionally, examining subject variability in treatment effects on hearing and how this correlates with behavior and physiology would yield valuable insights. If limited space maybe a brief clarification or inclusion in supplementary could be good enough.

      We do indeed have data on ABR amplitudes and the wave 1 growth functions but only in response to broadband clicks. For more frequency-specific information, mass-potential recordings are available, obtained before and after ouabain treatment. Regarding neural tuning, we did not obtain full frequency-threshold curves but do have bandwidths for response curves recorded close to threshold. We are in the process of analyzing all these data further and will consider how to best incorporate them into the manuscript, to address the reviewer’s concerns.

      Another suggestion is to discuss the potential role of MOC efferent system and effect of anesthesia in reducing efferent effects in AN recordings. This is particularly relevant for aged animals, as CS might affect LSR fibers, potentially disrupting the medial olivocochlear (MOC) efferent pathway. Anesthesia could lessen MOC activity in both young and aged animals, potentially masking efferent effects that might be present in behavioral tasks. Young gerbils with functional efferent systems might perform better behaviorally, while aged gerbils with impaired MOC function due to CS might lack this advantage. A brief discussion on this aspect could potentially enhance mechanistic insights.

      Our provisional response below will be integrated in similar form into the Discussion.

      Olivocochlear efferent activity is a potential modulator of OHC gain (by medial olivocochlear neurons, MOC) and afferent activity (by lateral olivocochlear neurons, LOC). Beyond this general observation it is, however, difficult to speculate about its specific role in the TFS1 test, as almost nothing is known about efferent activity under naturalistic conditions in a behaving animal (reviewed by Lauer et al., 2022). We note, however, that efferent activity is believed to be reduced under general anesthesia (reviewed by Guinan, 2011, DOI 10.1007/978-1-4419-7070-1_3) and possibly abnormal in other ways, considering the potential top-down inputs to the efferent neurons from extensive brain networks (reviewed by Schofield, 2011, DOI 10.1007/978-1-4419-7070-1_9; Romero and Trussell, 2022, DOI: 10.1016/j.heares.2022.108516). Thus, it is reasonable to assume a reduced efferent influence in our auditory-nerve data, compared to the behavioral test situation. In contrast, we assume more comparable efferent influences in young-adult and old gerbils. It was recently shown that, despite age-related losses in both MOC and LOC cochlear innervation, this basically reflected the loss of efferent target structures (OHC and type-I afferents), with the surviving cochlear circuitry remaining largely normal (Steenken et al., 2024, DOI: 10.3389/fnsyn.2024.1422330). The main difference was an increased proportion of OHC without any efferent innervation, predominantly in low-frequency cochlear regions (Steenken et al., 2024). Such OHC are thus not under efferent control, and they are more numerous (about 10 – 30%) in old gerbils.

      Lastly, although synapse counts did not differ between the low-dose treatment and NH I sham groups, separating these groups rather than combining them with the sham might reveal differences in behavior or AN results, particularly regarding the significance of differences between aged/treatment groups and the young normal-hearing group. For maximizing statistical power, we combined those groups in the statistical analysis. These two groups did not differ in synapse number and had quite similar ABR wave 1 growth functions.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Using a gerbil model, the authors tested the hypothesis that loss of synapses between sensory hair cells and auditory nerve fibers (which may occur due to noise exposure or aging) affects behavioral discrimination of the rapid temporal fluctuations of sounds. In contrast to previous suggestions in the literature, their results do not support this hypothesis; young animals treated with a compound that reduces the number of synapses did not show impaired discrimination compared to controls. Additionally, their results from older animals showing impaired discrimination suggest that age-related changes aside from synaptopathy are responsible for the age-related decline in discrimination.

      We agree with the reviewer’s summary.

      Strengths:

      (1) The rationale and hypothesis are well-motivated and clearly presented.

      (2) The study was well conducted with strong methodology for the most part, and good experimental control. The combination of physiological and behavioral techniques is powerful and informative. Reducing synapse counts fairly directly using ouabain is a cleaner design than using noise exposure or age (as in other studies), since these latter modifiers have additional effects on auditory function.

      (3) The study may have a considerable impact on the field. The findings could have important implications for our understanding of cochlear synaptopathy, one of the most highly researched and potentially impactful developments in hearing science in the past fifteen years.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) My main concern is that the stimuli may not have been appropriate for assessing neural temporal coding behaviorally. Human studies using the same task employed a filter center frequency that was (at least) 11 times the fundamental frequency (Marmel et al., 2015; Moore and Sek, 2009). Moore and Sek wrote: "the default (recommended) value of the centre frequency is 11F0." Here, the center frequency was only 4 or 8 times the fundamental frequency (4F0 or 8F0). Hence, relative to harmonic frequency, the harmonic spacing was considerably greater in the present study. By my calculations, the masking noise used in the present study was also considerably lower in level relative to the harmonic complex than that used in the human studies. These factors may have allowed the animals to perform the task using cues based on the pattern of activity across the neural array (excitation pattern cues), rather than cues related to temporal neural coding. The authors show that mean neural driven rate did not change with frequency shift, but I don't understand the relevance of this. It is the change in response of individual fibers with characteristic frequencies near the lowest audible harmonic that is important here.

      The auditory filter bandwidth of the gerbil is about double that of human subjects. Because of this, the masking noise has a larger overall level than in the human studies in the filter. This precludes that the gerbils can use excitation patterns, especially in the condition with a center frequency of 1600 Hz and a fundamental of 200 Hz and in the condition with a center frequency of 3200 Hz and a fundamental of 400 Hz.

      The case against excitation pattern cues needs to be better made in the Discussion. It could be that gerbil frequency selectivity is broad enough for this not to be an issue, but more detail needs to be provided to make this argument. The authors should consider what is the lowest audible harmonic in each case for their stimuli, given the level of each harmonic and the level of the pink noise. Even for the 8F0 center frequency, the lowest audible harmonic may be as low as the 4th (possibly even the 3rd). In human, harmonics are thought to be resolvable by the cochlea up to at least the 8th.

      Because of the gerbil’s broader auditory filters, with the exception of the condition with center frequency of 1600 Hz and fundamental of 400 Hz harmonics are are not resolved. We will expand the topic of potential excitation pattern cues in the discussion of the revised version and add results on modeled excitation patterns to the supplement.

      (2) The synapse reductions in the high ouabain and old groups were relatively small (mean of 19 synapses per hair cell compared to 23 in the young untreated group). In contrast, in some mouse models of the effects of noise exposure or age, a 50% reduction in synapses is observed, and in the human temporal bone study of Wu et al. (2021, https://doi.org/10.1523/JNEUROSCI.3238-20.2021) the age-related reduction in auditory nerve fibres was ~50% or greater for the highest age group across cochlear location. It could be simply that the synapse loss in the present study was too small to produce significant behavioral effects. Hence, although the authors provide evidence that in the gerbil model the age-related behavioral effects are not due to synaptopathy, this may not translate to other species (including human). This should be discussed in the manuscript.

      Our provisional response below will be integrated in similar form into the Discussion.

      The observed extent of age-related or noise-induced loss of type-I afferent synapses on IHC varies widely between species and studies. For example, in ageing CBA/CaJ mice, mean losses of between 20 and 50% of afferent synapses (depending on cochlear location and precise age) were reported (Sergeyenko et al., 2013, DOI: 10.1523/JNEUROSCI.1783-13.2013; Kobrina et al., 2020, DOI: 10.1016/j.neurobiolaging.2020.08.012). Humans showed more pronounced losses of peripheral axons, of 40–100%, again depending on cochlear location, precise age, and noise history (Wu et al., 2019, DOI: 10.1016/j.neuroscience.2018.07.053; 2021, DOI: 10.1523/JNEUROSCI.3238-20.2021). The age-related and induced synapse losses in our gerbils were in a more moderate range, around 20% (Steenken et al., 2021, DOI: 10.1016/j.neurobiolaging.2021.08.019; this study). Thus, it is possible that a more severe, induced synaptopathy would have resulted in behavioral deficits in young-adult gerbils. However, in the absence of additional noise or pharmacologically induced damage, our study provides strong evidence for other factors causing temporal processing problems with advancing age. Our 3-year-old gerbils are approximately comparable to a 60-year-old human (Castano-Gonzalez et al., 2024, DOI: 10.1016/j.heares.2024.108989) with beginning but not yet clinically relevant hearing loss (Hamann et al., 2002, DOI: 10.1016/S0378-5955(02)00454-9).

      It would be informative to provide synapse counts separately for the animals who were tested behaviorally, to confirm that the pattern of loss across the group was the same as for the larger sample.

      Yes, the pattern was the same for the subgroup of behaviorally tested animals. We will add this information to the revised version of the manuscript.

      (3) The study was not pre-registered, and there was no a priori power calculation, so there is less confidence in replicability than could have been the case. Only three old animals were used in the behavioral study, which raises concerns about the reliability of comparisons involving this group.

      The results for the three old subjects differed significantly from those of young subjects and young ouabain-treated subjects. This indicates a sufficient statistical power, since otherwise no significant differences would be observed.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      This study is a part of the ongoing series of rigorous work from this group exploring neural coding deficits in the auditory nerve, and dissociating the effects of cochlear synaptopathy from other age-related deficits. They have previously shown no evidence of phase-locking deficits in the remaining auditory nerve fibers in quiet-aged gerbils. Here, they study the effects of aging on the perception and neural coding of temporal fine structure cues in the same Mongolian gerbil model.

      They measure TFS coding in the auditory nerve using the TFS1 task which uses a combination of harmonic and tone-shifted inharmonic tones which differ primarily in their TFS cues (and not the envelope). They then follow this up with a behavioral paradigm using the TFS1 task in these gerbils. They test young normal hearing gerbils, aged gerbils, and young gerbils with cochlear synaptopathy induced using the neurotoxin ouabain to mimic synapse losses seen with age. In the behavioral paradigm, they find that aging is associated with decreased performance compared to the young gerbils, whereas young gerbils with similar levels of synapse loss do not show these deficits. When looking at the auditory nerve responses, they find no differences in neural coding of TFS cues across any of the groups.

      However, aged gerbils show an increase in the representation of periodicity envelope cues (around f0) compared to young gerbils or those with induced synapse loss. The authors hence conclude that synapse loss by itself doesn't seem to be important for distinguishing TFS cues, and rather the behavioral deficits with age are likely having to do with the misrepresented envelope cues instead.

      We agree with the reviewer’s summary.

      The manuscript is well written, and the data presented are robust. Some of the points below will need to be considered while interpreting the results of the study, in its current form. These considerations are addressable if deemed necessary, with some additional analysis in future versions of the manuscript.

      Spontaneous rates - Figure S2 shows no differences in median spontaneous rates across groups. But taking the median glosses over some of the nuances there. Ouabain (in the Bourien study) famously affects low spont rates first, and at a higher degree than median or high spont rates. It seems to be the case (qualitatively) in Figure S2 as well, with almost no units in the low spont region in the ouabain group, compared to the other groups. Looking at distributions within each spont rate category and comparing differences across the groups might reveal some of the underlying causes for these changes. Given that overall, the study reports that low-SR fibers had a higher ENV/TFS log-z-ratio, the distribution of these fibers across groups may reveal specific effects of TFS coding by group.

      As the reviewer points out, our sample from the group treated with a high concentration of ouabain showed very few low-spontaneous-rate auditory-nerve fibers, as expected from previous work. However, this was also true, e.g., for our sample from sham-operated animals, and may thus well reflect a sampling bias. We are therefore reluctant to attach much significance to these data distributions. We will consider moving some supplementary information back into the main manuscript when revising.

      Threshold shifts - It is unclear from the current version if the older gerbils have changes in hearing thresholds, and whether those changes may be affecting behavioral thresholds. The behavioral stimuli appear to have been presented at a fixed sound level for both young and aged gerbils, similar to the single unit recordings. Hence, age-related differences in behavior may have been due to changes in relative sensation level. Approaches such as using hearing thresholds as covariates in the analysis will help explore if older gerbils still show behavioral deficits.

      Unfortunately, we did not obtain behavioral thresholds that could be used here. The ABR thresholds, although not directly comparable to behavioral thresholds, suggest that our old animals had at most a moderate threshold increase in quiet. Furthermore, we want to point out that the TFS 1 stimuli had an overall level of 68 dB SPL, and the pink noise masker would have increased the threshold more than expected from the moderate, age-related hearing loss in quiet. Thus, the masked thresholds for all gerbil groups are likely similar and should have no effect on the behavioral results.

      Task learning in aged gerbils - It is unclear if the aged gerbils really learn the task well in two of the three TFS1 test conditions. The d' of 1 which is usually used as the criterion for learning was not reached in even the easiest condition for aged gerbils in all but one condition for the aged gerbils (Fig. 5H) and in that condition, there doesn't seem to be any age-related deficits in behavioral performance (Fig. 6B). Hence dissociating the inability to learn the task from the inability to perceive TFS 1 cues in those animals becomes challenging.

      Even in the group of gerbils with the lowest sensitivity, for the condition 400/1600 the animals achieved a d’ of on average above 1. Furthermore, stimuli were well above threshold and audible, even when no discrimination could be observed. Finally, as explained in the methods, different stimulus conditions were interleaved in each session, providing stimuli that were easy to discriminate together with those being difficult to discriminate. This approach ensures that the gerbils were under stimulus control, meaning properly trained to perform the task. Thus, an inability to discriminate does not indicate a lack of proper training.

      Increased representation of periodicity envelope in the AN - the mechanisms for increased representation of periodicity envelope cues is unclear. The authors point to some potential central mechanisms but given that these are recordings from the auditory nerve what central mechanisms these may be is unclear. If the authors are suggesting some form of efferent modulation only at the f0 frequency, no evidence for this is presented. It appears more likely that the enhancement may be due to outer hair cell dysfunction (widened tuning, distorted tonotopy). Given this increased envelope coding, the potential change in sensation level for the behavior (from the comment above), and no change in neural coding of TFS cues across any of the groups, a simpler interpretation may be -TFS coding is not affected in remaining auditory nerve fibers after age-related or ouabain induced synapse loss, but behavioral performance is affected by altered outer hair cell dysfunction with age.

      A similar point is made by Reviewer #1. As indicated above, we do have limited data on neural bandwidths and will explore if these are sufficient to address the reviewers’ questions about potential, age-related changes in neural tuning in our sample. Previous work found no substantial OHC losses (Tarnowski et al., 1991, DOI: 10.1016/0378-5955(91)90142-V; Adams and Schulte, 1997, DOI: 10.1016/S0378-5955(96)00184-0; Steenken et al., 2024, DOI: 10.3389/fnsyn.2024.1422330) nor any deterioration in neural frequency tuning (Heeringa et al., 2020, DOI: 10.1523/JNEUROSCI.2784-18.2019), in quiet-aged gerbils of similar age as the ones used here.

      Emerging evidence seems to suggest that cochlear synaptopathy and/or TFS encoding abilities might be reflected in listening effort rather than behavioral performance. Measuring some proxy of listening effort in these gerbils (like reaction time) to see if that has changed with synapse loss, especially in the young animals with induced synaptopathy, would make an interesting addition to explore perceptual deficits of TFS coding with synapse loss.

      This is an interesting suggestion that we will explore in the revision of the manuscript. Reaction times were recorded for responses that can be used as a proxy for listening effort.

    1. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors investigated DG neuronal activity at the population and single cell level across sleep/wake periods. They found an infraslow oscillation (0.01-0.03 Hz) in both granule cells (GC) and mossy cells (MC) during NREM sleep. The important findings are 1) the antiparallel temporal dynamics of DG neuron activities and serotonin neuron activities/extracellular serotonin levels during NREM sleep, and 2) the GC Htr1a-mediated GC infraslow oscillation.

      Strengths:

      (1) The combination of polysomnography, Ca-fiber photometry, two-photon microscopy and gene depletion is technically sound. The coincidence of microarousals and dips in DG population activity is convincing. The dip in activity in upregulated cells is responsible for the dip at the population level.<br /> (2) DG GCs express excitatory Htr4 and Htr7 in addition to inhibitory Htr1a, but deletion of Htr1a is sufficient to disrupt DG GC infraslow oscillation, supporting the importance of Htr1a in DG activity during NREM sleep.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The current data set and analysis are insufficient to interpret the observation correctly.<br /> a. In Fig 1A, during NREM, the peaks and troughs of GC population activities seem to gradually decrease over time. Please address this point.<br /> b. In Fig 1F, about 30% of Ca dips coincided with MA (EMG increase) and 60% of Ca dips did not coincide with EMG increase. If this is true, the readers can find 8 Ca dips which are not associated with MAs from Fig 1E. If MAs were clustered, please describe this properly.<br /> c. In Fig 1F, the legend stated the percentage during NREM. If the authors want to include the percentage of wake and REM, please show the traces with Ca dips during wake and REM. This concern applies to all pie charts provided by the authors.<br /> d. In Fig 1C, please provide line plots connecting the same session. This request applies to all related figures.<br /> e. In Fig 2C, the significant increase during REM and the same level during NREM are not convincing. In Fig 2A, the several EMG increasing bouts do not appear to be MA, but rather wakefulness, because the duration of the EMG increase is greater than 15 seconds. Therefore, it is possible that the wake bouts were mixed with NREM bouts, leading to the decrease of Ca activity during NREM. In fact, In Fig 2E, the 4th MA bout seems to be the wake bout because the EMG increase lasts more than 15 seconds.<br /> f. Fig 5D REM data are interesting because the DRN activity is stably silenced during REM. The varied correlation means the varied DG activity during REM. The authors need to address it.<br /> g. In Fig 6, the authors should show the impact of DG Htr1a knockdown on sleep/wake structure including the frequency of MAs. I agree with the impact of Htr1a on DG ISO, but possible changes in sleep bout may induce the DG ISO disturbance.

      (2) It is acceptable that DG Htr1a KO induces the reduced freezing in the CFC test (Fig. 6E, F), but it is too much of a stretch that the disruption of DG ISO causes impaired fear memory. There should be a correlation.

      (3) It is necessary to describe the extent of AAV-Cre infection. The authors injected AAV into the dorsal DG (AP -1.9 mm), but the histology shows the ventral DG (Supplementary Fig. 4), which reduces the reliability of this study.

      Comments on revisions:

      In the first revision, I pointed out the inappropriate analysis of the EEG/EMG/photometry data and gave examples. The authors responded only to the points raised and did not seem to see the need to improve the overall analysis and description. In this second revision, I would like to ask the authors to improve them. The biggest problem is that the detection criteria and the quantification of the specific event are not described at all in Methods and it is extremely difficult to follow the statement. All interpretations are made by the inappropriate data analysis; therefore, I have to say that the statement is not supported by the data.

      Please read my following concerns carefully and improve them.

      (1) The definition of the event is critical to the detection of the event and the subsequent analysis. In particular, the authors explicitly describe the definition of MA (microarousal), the trough and peak of the population level of intracellular Ca concentrations, or the onset of the decline and surge of Ca levels.

      (1-1) The authors categorized wake bouts of <15 seconds with high EMG activity as MA (in Methods). What degree of high EMG is relevant to MA and what is the lower limit of high EMG? In Fig 1E, there are some EMG spikes, but it was unclear which spike/wave (amplitude/duration) was detected as MA-relevant spike and which spike was not detected. In Fig 2E, the 3rd MA coincides with the EMG spike, but other EMG spikes have comparable amplitude to the 3rd MA-relevant EMG spike. Correct counting of MA events is critical in Fig 1F, 2F, 4C.

      (1-2) Please describe the definition of Ca trough in your experiments. In Fig 1G, the averaged trough time is clear (~2.5 s), so I can acknowledge that MA is followed by Ca trough. However, the authors state on page 4 that "30% of the calcium troughs during NREM sleep were followed by an MA epoch". This discrepancy should be corrected.

      (1-3) Relating comment 1-2, I agree that the latency is between MA and Ca through in page 4, as the authors explain in the methods, but, in Fig 1G, t (latency) is labeled at incorrect position. Please correct this.

      (1-4) The authors may want to determine the onset of the decline in population Ca activity and the latency between onset and trough (Fig 1G, latency t). If so, please describe how the onset of the decline is determined. In Fig 1G, 2G, S6, I can find the horizontal dashed line and infer that the intersection of the horizontal line and the Ca curve is considered the onset. However, I have to say that the placement of this horizontal line is super arbitrary. The results (t and Drop) are highly dependent on the position of horizontal line, so the authors need to describe how to set the horizontal line.

      (1-5) In order to follow Fig 1F correctly, the authors need to indicate the detection criteria of "Ca dip (in legend)". Please indicate "each Ca dip" in Fig 1E. As a reader, I would like to agree with the Ca dip detection of this Ca curve based on the criteria. Please also indicate "each Ca dip" in Fig 2E and 2F. In the case of the 2nd and 3rd MAs, do they follow a single Ca dip or does each MA follow each Ca dip? This chart is highly dependent on the detection criteria of Ca dip.

      As I mentioned above, most of the quantifications are not based on the clear detection criteria. The authors need to re-analyze the data and fix the quantification. Please interpret data and discuss the cellular mechanism of ISO based on the re-analyzed quantification.

    2. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors employ a series of well-conceived and well-executed experiments involving photometric imaging of the dentate gyrus and raphe nucleus, as well as cell-type specific genetic manipulations of serotonergic receptors that together serve to directly implicate serotonergic regulation of dentate gyrus (DG) granule (GC) and mossy cell (MC) activity in association with an infra slow oscillation (ISO) of neural activity has been previously linked to general cortical regulation during NREM sleep and microarousals.

      Strengths:

      There are a number of novel and important results, including the modulation of dentage granule cell activity by the infraslow oscillation during NREM sleep, the selective association of different subpopulations of granule cells to microarousals (MA), the anticorrelation of raphe activity with infraslow dentate activity.

      The discussion includes a general survey of ISOs and recent work relating to their expression in other brain areas and other potential neuromodulatory system involvement, as well as possible connections with infraslow oscillations, micro arousals, and sensory sensitivity.

      Weaknesses:

      - The behavioral results showing contextual memory impairment resulting from 5-HT1a knockdown are fine, but are over-interpreted. The term memory consolidation is used several times, as well as references to sleep-dependence. This is not what was tested. The receptor was knocked down, and then 2 weeks later animals were found to have fear conditioning deficits. They can certainly describe this result as indicating a connection between 5-HT1a receptor function and memory performance, but the connection to sleep and consolidation would just be speculation. The fact that 5-HT1a knockdown also impacted DG ISOs does not establish dependency. Some examples of this are:<br /> o The final conclusion asserts "Together, our study highlights the role of neuromodulation in organizing neuronal activity during sleep and sleep-dependent brain functions, such as memory.", but the reported memory effects (impairment of fear conditioning) were not shown to be explicitly sleep-dependent.<br /> o Earlier in the discussion it mentions "Finally, we showed that local genetic ablation of 5-HT1a receptors in GCs impaired the ISO and memory consolidation". The effect shown was on general memory performance - consolidation was not specifically implicated.

      - The assertion on page 9 that the results demonstrate "that the 5-HT is directly acting in the DG to gate the oscillations" is a bit strong given the magnitude of effect shown in Fig. 6D, and the absence of demonstration of negative effect on cortical areas that also show ISO activity and could impact DG activity (see requested cortical sigma power analysis).

      - Recent work has shown that abnormal DG GC activity can result from the use of the specific Ca indicator being used (GCaMP6s). (Teng, S., Wang, W., Wen, J.J.J. et al. Expression of GCaMP6s in the dentate gyrus induces tonic-clonic seizures. Sci Rep 14, 8104 (2024). https://doi.org/10.1038/s41598-024-58819-9). The authors of that study found that the effect seemed to be specific to GCaMP6s and that GCaMP6f did not lead to abnormal excitability. Note this is of particular concern given similar infraslow variation of cortical excitability in epilepsy (cf Vanhatalo et al. PNAS 2004). While I don't think that the experiments need to be repeated with a different indicator to address this concern, you should be able to use the 2p GCaMP7 experiments that have already been done to provide additional validation by repeating the analyses done for the GCaMP6s photometry experiments. This should be done anyway to allow appropriate comparison of the 2p and photometry results.

      - While the discussion mentions previous work that has linked ISOs during sleep with regulation of cortical oscillations in the sigma band, oddly no such analysis is performed in the current work even though it is presumably available and would be highly relevant to the interpretation of a number of primary results including the relationship between the ISOs and MAs observed in the DG and similar results reported in other areas, as well as the selective impact of DG 5-HT1a knockdown on DG ISOs. For example, in the initial results describing the cross correlation of calcium activity and EMG/EEG with MA episodes (paragraph 1, page 4), similar results relating brief arousals to the infraslow fluctuation in sleep spindles (sigma band) have been reported also at .02 Hz associated with variation in sensory arousability (cf. Cardis et al., "Cortico-autonomic local arousals and heightened somatosensory arousability during NREMS of mice in neuropathic pain", eLife 2021). It would be important to know whether the current results show similar cortical sigma band correlations. Also, in the results on ISO attenuation following 5-HT1 knockdown on page 7 (fig. 6), how is cortical EEG affected? is ISO still seen in EEG but attenuated in DG?

      - The illustrations of the effect of 5-HT1a knockdown shown in Figure 6 are somewhat misleading. The examples in panels B and C show an effect that is much more dramatic than the overall effect shown in panel D. Panels B and C do not appear to be representative examples. Which of the sample points in panel D are illustrated in panels B, C? it is not appropriate to arbitrarily select two points from different animals for comparison, or worse, to take points from the extremes of the distributions. If the intent is to illustrate what the effect shown in D looks like in the raw data, then you need to select examples that reflect the means shown in panel D. It is also important to show the effect on cortical EEG, particularly in sigma band to see if the effects are restricted to the DG ISOs. It would also be helpful to show that MAs and their correlations as shown in Fig 1 or G as well as broader sleep architecture are not affected.

      - On page 9 of the results it states that GCs and MCs are upregulated during NREM and their activity is abruptly terminated by MAs through a 5-HT mediated mechanism. I didn't see anything showing the 5-HT dependence of the MA activity correlation. The results indicate a reduction in ISO modulation of GC activity but not the MA correlated activity. I would like to see the equivalent of Fig 1,2 G panels with the 5-HT1a manipulation.

    1. Reviewer #4 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Wilmes and colleagues develop a model for the computation of uncertainty modulated prediction errors based on an experimentally inspired cortical circuit model for predictive processing. Predictive processing is a promising theory of cortical function. An essential aspect of the model is the idea of precision weighting of prediction errors. There is ample experimental evidence for prediction error responses in cortex. However, a central prediction of the theory is that these prediction error responses are regulated by the uncertainty of the input. Testing this idea experimentally has been difficult due to a lack of concrete models. This work provides one such model and makes experimentally testable predictions.

      Strengths:

      The model proposed is novel and well-implemented. It has sufficient biological accuracy to make useful and testable predictions.

      Weaknesses:

      One key idea the model hinges on is that stimulus uncertainty is encoded in the firing rate of parvalbumin positive interneurons. While this assumption is rather speculative, the model also here makes experimentally testable predictions.

      Comments on revisions:

      Congratulations on a very nice paper.

    2. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This computational modeling study addresses the observation that variable observations are interpreted differently depending on how much uncertainty an agent expects from its environment. That is, the same mismatch between a stimulus and an expected stimulus would be less significant, and specifically would represent a smaller prediction error, in an environment with a high degree of variability than in one where observations have historically been similar to each other. The authors show that if two different classes of inhibitory interneurons, the PV and SST cells, (1) encode different aspects of a stimulus distribution and (2) act in different (divisive vs. subtractive) ways, and if (3) synaptic weights evolve in a way that causes the impact of certain inputs to balance the firing rates of the targets of those inputs, then pyramidal neurons in layer 2/3 of canonical cortical circuits can indeed encode uncertainty-modulated prediction errors. To achieve this result, SST neurons learn to represent the mean of a stimulus distribution and PV neurons its variance.

      The impact of uncertainty on prediction errors in an understudied topic, and this study provides an intriguing and elegant new framework for how this impact could be achieved and what effects it could produce. The ideas here differ from past proposals about how neuronal firing represents uncertainty. The developed theory is accompanied by several predictions for future experimental testing, including the existence of different forms of coding by different subclasses of PV interneurons, which target different sets of SST interneurons (as well as pyramidal cells). The authors are able to point to some experimental observations that are at least consistent with their computational results. The simulations shown demonstrate that if we accept its assumptions, then the authors’ theory works very well: SSTs learn to represent the mean of a stimulus distribution, PVs learn to estimate its variance, firing rates of other model neurons scale as they should, and the level of uncertainty automatically tunes the learning rate, so that variable observations are less impactful in a high uncertainty setting.

      Strengths:

      The ideas in this work are novel and elegant, and they are instantiated in a progression of simulations that demonstrate the behavior of the circuit. The framework used by the authors is biologically plausible and matches some known biological data. The results attained, as well as the assumptions that go into the theory, provide several predictions for future experimental testing. The authors have taken into account earlier review comments to revise their paper in ways that enhance its clarity.

      Weaknesses:

      One weakness could be that the proposed theory does rely on a fairly large number of assumptions. However, there is at least some biological support for these. Importantly, the authors do lay out and discuss their key assumptions in the Discussion section, so readers can assess their validity and implications for themselves.

      Thank you very much, we are very satisfied with this public review.

      Reviewer #4 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Wilmes and colleagues develop a model for the computation of uncertainty modulated prediction errors based on an experimentally inspired cortical circuit model for predictive processing. Predictive processing is a promising theory of cortical function. An essential aspect of the model is the idea of precision weighting of prediction errors. There is ample experimental evidence for prediction error responses in cortex. However, a central prediction of the theory is that these prediction error responses are regulated by the uncertainty of the input. Testing this idea experimentally has been difficult due to a lack of concrete models. This work provides one such model and makes experimentally testable predictions.

      Strengths:

      The model proposed is novel and well-implemented. It has sufficient biological accuracy to make useful and testable predictions.

      Weaknesses:

      One key idea the model hinges on is that stimulus uncertainty is encoded in the firing rate of parvalbumin positive interneurons. This assumption, however, is rather speculative and there is no direct evidence for this.

      Thank you very much for this nice description. With regard to the weakness: it is true that the key idea hinges on uncertainty being encoded in the firing of inhibitory neurons. If it turns out that these inhibitory neurons are not PV neurons, however, the theory does not break down. The suggestion of PV neurons is fueled by the observation that PV neurons implement shunting and hence divisive inhibition and by the connectivity of PVs in the circuit. We discuss this in the discussion section: "To provide experimental predictions that are immediately testable, we suggested specific roles for SSTs and PVs, as they can subtractively and divisively modulate pyramidal cell activity, respectively. In principle, our theory more generally posits that any subtractive or divisive inhibition could implement the suggested computations. With the emerging data on inhibitory cell types, subtypes of SSTs and PVs or other cell types may turn out to play the proposed role."

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #4 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Line numbers would simplify reviewing.

      We will add line numbers to our next submission.

      (2) The existence of positive and negative PE was already suggested by Rao & Ballard.

      We added the citation to the sentence "Because baseline firing rates are low in layer 2/3 pyramidal cells () positive and negative prediction errors were suggested to be represented by distinct neuronal populations [44,66],[...]" in the section "Computation of UPEs in cortical microcircuits".

      (3) wekk should probably read well.

      Indeed, thank you. We fixed it.

      (4) Figure 4. legends A-C are mixed up. What are the two values of ¦s-u¦ in F and I - the same as in D and F.

      Thank you, we fixed this.

      (5) "representation neurons, the activity of which reflects the internal model". For consistency with the original definitions this should read "the activity of which reflects the internal representation". The internal "model" is the synaptic weights (or transformation between areas) - the activity of representation neurons (as the name implies) is the internal "representation".

      Thank you, we changed it.

      (6) "Mice trained in a predictable environment [...] [4]." This should read "reared" in an unpredictable environment, etc. Relatedly, the problem with this argument is that, the referenced paper argues that the mice never learned to predict and the reduced PE responses are a consequence of a reduction in prediction strength (these mice never - in life - had experience of visuomotor coupling). Better evidence might be the acute changes observed in normal mice (see e.g. Figure 3B in https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22681686/ However, another finding from the paper referenced is that in mice reared without visuomotor coupling, MM responses of SST interneurons are unchanged, while those in PV interneurons are completely absent. Would the authors model come to similar results if trained in an environment with (very) high uncertainty and then tested in a low uncertainty environment?

      Thank you for pointing us to Figure 3B of Keller et al. 2012. We are now citing this result as it is indeed better evidence.

      Thank you very much for your illuminating question and for pointing out that a mouse that never experienced a predictable visual flow may not have formed a model of the visual flow, and hence may not have any prediction about its visual experience. We haven’t considered this scenario in our paper before. So far, we only considered scenarios, in which it is possible to learn a prediction, i.e. to infer the mean from the sensory input. We now consider this other scenario in which the mouse that was reared in an unpredictable environment did not form a prediction and compare SST (1) and PV (2) activity in this mouse to one that learned to form a prediction, and added it to the section "Predictions for different cell types":

      "Second, prediction error activity seems to decrease in less predictable, and hence more uncertain, contexts: in mice reared in a predictable environment [where locomotion and visual flow match, 42], error neuron responses to mismatches in locomotion and visual flow decreased with each day of experiencing these unpredictable mismatches. Third, the responses of SSTs and PVs to mismatches between locomotion and visual flow [4] are in line with our model (note that in this experiment the mismatches are negative prediction errors as visual flow was halted despite ongoing locomotion): In this study, SST responses decreased during mismatch, i.e. when the visual flow was halted, and there was no difference between mice reared in a predictable or unpredictable environment. In line with these observations, the authors concluded that SST responses reflected the actual visual input. In our model negative PE circuit, SSTs also reflect the actual stimulus input, which in our case was a whisker stimulus (SST rates in Fig. 6C and I reflect the stimuli (black and grey bar) in A and G, respectively) and SST rates are the same for high and low uncertainty (corresponding to mice reared in a predictable or unpredictable environment). In the same study, PV responses were absent towards mismatches in animals reared in an unpredictable environment [4]. The authors argued that mice reared in an unpredictable environment did not learn to form a prediction. In our model, the missing prediction corresponds to missing predictive input from the auditory domain (e.g. due to undeveloped synapses from the predictive auditory input). If we removed the predictive input in our model, PVs in the negative PE circuit would also be silent as they would not receive any of the excitatory predictive inputs."

      (7) "Our model further posits the existence of two distinct subtypes of SSTs in positive and negative error circuits." There is some evidence for this: Figure 5a in https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36747710/

      Thank you, we added this citation to the corresponding section.

    1. Reviewer #4 (Public review):

      The work by Yingying Chen, Jeong Han Lee, and co-authors summarizes the morphological and functional outcomes of Cldn9 loss in the inner ear, particularly in the organ of Corti. While the study does not provide mechanistic insights into how the developmental loss of Cldn9 leads to ectopic hair cell formation, the phenomenon itself is curious. The work primarily focuses on a detailed characterization of the ectopic hair cells, which is well done. Despite the lack of mechanistic insights, the study will be of interest to the inner ear field if several major issues with the manuscript are addressed.

      (1) The title, "Genetic and pharmacologic alterations of claudin9 levels suffice to induce functional and mature inner hair cells," is misleading. First, both manipulations (knockout and knockdown) are genetic, and no pharmacology is involved. Second, both manipulations are carried out during the embryonic and neonatal periods, and there is no evidence of mature hair cell regeneration in this study. The title should be revised to reflect this. A more accurate title could be: "Developmental loss of Cldn9 results in functional ectopic inner hair cells that persist through adulthood."<br /> (2) Contact-mediated lateral inhibition in hair cell fate determination is one of the most well-studied phenomena in the inner ear field, and numerous groups have shown that it is mediated by Notch signaling. This must be added to the introduction.<br /> (3) A large body of literature has demonstrated that Notch inhibition alone is not sufficient to regenerate hair cells in adult mice. Therefore, if the loss of claudins disrupts Notch signaling-the proposed mechanisms in the discussion - it is unlikely to be a viable therapeutic strategy for hair cell regeneration in the adult ear. Furthermore, no hair cell ablation experiments were conducted to demonstrate what could be considered true regeneration. These speculative statements should be removed or revised accordingly.<br /> (4) Cldn9 is a tight junction protein and should localize to the membrane. Yet, the data presented show what appears to be diffuse cytoplasmic staining, which is concerning.

    2. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The focus of this manuscript was to investigate the role of Cldn9 in the development of the mammalian cochlea. The main rationale of the study is the fact that cochlear hair cells do not regenerate, so when damaged they are lost forever, causing irreparable hearing loss. The authors have attempted to address this problem by inducing the ectopic production of additional hair cells and testing whether they acquire the morphological and functional characteristics of native hair cells. They show that downregulation of Cldn9 using a well-established genetic manipulation of transgenic mice led to the production of extra numerary inner hair cells, which were able to survive for several months. By performing a large battery of experiments, the authors were able to determine that the native and ectopic inner hair cells have comparable morphological and physiological characteristics. There are several conclusions highlighted by the authors in different parts of the manuscript, including the key role of Cldn9 in coordinating embryonic and postnatal development, the differentiation of supporting cells into inner hair cells, and the possible use of Cldn9 to induce inner hair cell differentiation following deafness induced by hair cell loss.

      Strengths:

      Several of the conclusions in this study are well supported by the experimental work.

      Weaknesses:

      Some aspects of the data and its interpretation needs better explanation and requires further investigation.

      (1) The Results section is the most difficult part to read and understand. It contains a very limited, and in some places confusing and repetitive, description of the data. Statistical analysis is missing for some of the key data (e.g., ABRs), and in some places the text contradicts the data presented in the figures (e.g., Figure 8). I am sure carefully revising the text would clarify some of these issues.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. We revised parts of the results section and added the statistical analysis to the ABRs and DPOAE (lines 151-159; Page 29, lines 846-880). 

      (2) One puzzling finding that is not addressed in the manuscript is the lack of functional benefit from these additional inner hair cells. In fact, it appears to be detrimental based on the increased ABR thresholds. Maybe it would be useful to analyze the wave 1 characteristics.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. We added the wave 1 characteristics as S8.

      (3) It is not clear what direct evidence there is, apart from some immunostaining, indicating that the ectopic inner hair cells derive from the supporting cells. This part would benefit from a more careful consideration and maybe an attempt at a more direct experimental approach.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. We intend to investigate the origin of the ectopic inner hair cells using (for example, a qRT-PCR, sm FISH, etc.) in our future study.

      (4) One point that should be made clear throughout the manuscript is that the ectopic inner hair cells are generated in a cochlea that is undergoing normal maturation. Thus, there is no guarantee that modulating the expression levels of Cldn9 in a deaf mouse lacking hair cells would produce the same result as that shown in this study. My guess is that it probably won't, but I am sure this could be tested (maybe in the future) using the excellent experimental approach applied in this study.

      That is a great point. We will explore it in our future experiments.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The generation of functional extranumerary inner hair cells (IHCs) in postnatal mice, particularly with virus-mediated knockdown of Cldn9 mRNA expression in the neonatal cochlear duct, is an important observation. It is significant because not many studies exist that report molecular manipulations of the neonatal organ of Corti that result in the generation of new hair cells that remain functional and appear to be intact for an extended time, here more than one year. Overall, this is a carefully conducted study; the observations are clear, and the methods are solid. Two independent methods for reducing the expression of Cldn9 mRNA were used: a conditional transgenic model and AAV-mediated knockdown with shRNA. The lack of a functional explanation of how the reduced expression of Cldn9 specifically leads to the formation of extranumerary IHCs leaves open questions. For example, it is not clear whether there is indeed a fate change happening and whether Cldn9 reduction affects developmental processes. The discussion of how Cldn9 reduction potentially affects Notch signaling, without hard evidence, is handwaving.

      Strengths:

      It is a very interesting observation and somewhat unexpected in its specificity for inner hair cells. Using two different approaches to manipulate Cldn9 expression provides a strong experimental foundation. The study is conducted quantitatively and with care.

      Weaknesses:

      The lack of mechanistic insight results in an open-ended story where at least the potential interaction of Cldn9 reduction with known and well-characterized signaling pathway components should have been investigated. This missed opportunity limits the scope of the study and should be addressed: How does Cldn9 downregulation affect the expression levels of other known genes linked to hair cell production and cell fate decisions? Quantitative RT-PCR works well for the authors, and comparing the expression of Notch or other known pathway components could provide mechanistic insight.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. We did quantitative RT-PCR to compare the expression of Notch or other known pathway components in our future work. Besides, we used smFISH with ccnd1 probe and cdkn1b probe to detect cyclin D1 and cyclin-dependent kinase inhibitor 1B (p27) separately in the mouse cochlea. GAPDH was selected as a reference gene. The quantification results showed no significant difference between Cldn9<sup>+/T</sup> mice and Cldn9<sup>+/+</sup> mice at P2, P7, and P14.

      It is unclear how P21 inner hair cells were identified for the patch-clamp experiments shown in Fig 4E-H. This is a challenging endeavor without the possibility of using specific markers.

      We did not have a specific marker for IHCs. However, one with experience in hair bundle morphology and knowledge of their location in the epithelia can identify IHCs from the upright microscope.

      Please also address the numerous minor points outlined below; it will improve the paper's readability.

      Thanks. Please find the point-to-point answers below.

      Please include page numbers and line numbers in a revised manuscript.

      We include page numbers and line numbers in a revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      This important study by Chen et al help in advancing our knowledge about the regulation of inner hair cell (IHC) development and revealed the role of Cldn9 in IHC embryonic and postnatal induction by transdifferentiation from the supporting cells. The authors developed an inducible doxycycline (dox)-tet-OFF-Cldn9 transgenic mice to regulate expression levels of Cldn9 and show that downregulation of Cldn9 resulted in additional, although incomplete row of IHCs immediately adjacent to the original IHC row. These induced extra IHCs had similar well developed hair bundles, able to mechanotransduce and were innervated by auditory neurons resembling wild-type IHCs. In addition, the authors knock down Cldn9 postnatally using shRNA injections in P1-7 mice with similar induction of extranumerary IHC next to the original row of IHCs. The conclusions of this paper are mostly well supported by the data, but some data analysis needed to be clarified and some crucial controls should be provided to improve the confidence in the presented results. There is a great potential for practical use of these valuable findings and new knowledge on IHC developmental regulation to design Cldn9 gene therapy in the future.

      The described by Chen et al mechanisms of extra hair cell generation by suppression of the tight junction protein Cldn9 expression level are very interesting and previously unknown. In particular, the generation of extra IHCs postnatally using downregulation of Cldn9 by shRNA could potentially be very useful as a replacement of HCs lost after noise-induced trauma, ototoxic agents, or other environmental trauma. On the other hand, the replacement of lost hair cells due to various genetic mutations by inducing a supernumerary IHCs with the same abnormalities would not be reasonable.

      The authors show that postnatally generated ectopic IHCs are viable and mechanotransducive, but it would be nice to show the maturation steps of ectopic IHC during this postnatal period. For example, stereocilia bundles of the ectopic hair cells should mature later than the original IHCs. A few days after viral delivery of shRNA, you should be able to observe immature IHC bundles that unequivocally will define newly generated IHCs. Unfortunately, the authors show only examples of already mature ectopic IHCs at P21 and in 5-6 weeks old mice and at relatively low resolution. Also, during maturation, IHCs usually have transient axo-somatic synapses that are not present in mature IHCs. It would be great to see if, in 5-6 weeks old mouse, the ectopic IHCs still have axo-somatic synapses or not, and if the majority of the ectopic IHCs have innervation. Some of the data in this study would benefit from showing corresponding controls and some - from higher resolution imaging.

      We appreciate the reviewer's suggestion. The objective of the paper is to report the phenomenon and present the coarse features of the Cldn9-mediated induced ectopic hair cells. The systematic details are for future studies, which are ongoing and out of the current scope.

      In the mammalian cochlea, each HC is separated from the next by intervening supporting cells, forming an invariant and alternating mosaic along the cochlea's length. Cochlear supporting cells in some conditions can divide and trans-differentiate into HCs, serving as a potential resource for HC differentiation, using transcription and other developmental signaling factors.

      However, when ectopic hair cells are generated from supporting cell trans-differentiation, the intricate mosaic of the organ of Corti is altered, which could by itself lead to hearing issues. In case of downregulation of Cldn9, the extra row of IHCs seems to be positioned immediately adjacent to the original IHC row. It is not clear if the newly formed unusual junctions between the ectopic and original IHCs are sufficiently tight to prevent leakage of the endolymph to the basolateral surface of IHCs. Also, it is not clear if the other organ of Corti tight junctions could lose their tightness due to the downregulation of Cldn9, which could over time affect the endocochlear potential as shown by this study and hearing abilities.

      There was a slightly increased ABR threshold (5 dB -15 dB) (Fig. 4A) and a decrease in the magnitude of the EP and the rise in the K<sup>+</sup> concentration in the endolymph and perilymph of Cldn9+/T mice compared to from age-matched littermates (S10) indicated there might be a compromised epithelium tight junction. The downregulation of Cldn9 affected the endocochlear potential and hearing abilities ((Fig. 4A, S10) after 2m, suggesting an age-dependent effect. The effective downregulation of Cldn9 would require proper titration of Cldn9 levels to induce extra hair cells with intact epithelial integrity; work may require additional studies.

      Importantly, CLDN9 immunofluorescence staining data that show cytoplasmic staining of supporting cells should be revisited and the organ of Corti schematics showing CLDN9 expression should be corrected, considering that CLDN9 localizes to the tight junctions of the reticular lamina as was shown by immunoEM in this study and described in previous publications (Kitajiri et al., 2004; Nakano et al., 2009, Ramzan et al., 2021). While the current version of the manuscript will interest scientists working in the inner ear development and regeneration field, it could be more valuable to hearing researchers outside this immediate field and perhaps developmental biologists and cell biologists after proper revision.

      We appreciate the reviewer's comments. We were concerned about the observation, but the results were consistent. Indeed, that was the motivation for performing the immunoEM (S3). A follow-up report may address it further.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Please address the points I made about the presentation (word choice, inconsistencies in labeling, etc). It ultimately helps a reader to understand and to follow your logic. This is an important observation.

      We corrected the inconsistencies in labeling and addressed the points you suggested.

      Making the extra effort to investigate a possible interaction between Cldn9 and Notch signaling would substantially increase the significance of the work.

      Thanks for the suggestions. We will explore it in our future work.

      Minor points:

      Some sentences would benefit from revision:

      - The abstract argues that hearing loss is incurable because mammalian hair cells are terminally differentiated (3rd sentence). This is not accurate.

      Mammalian HCs are terminally differentiated by birth, making HC loss challenging to replace.

      - The second sentence of the second paragraph of the introduction, "Cochlear SCs can divide and trans-differentiate into HCs, serving as a potential resource for HC differentiation, using transcription and developmental signaling factors (White et al., 2006)," should be referenced in the context of the animal's age. This feature of supporting cells is transient and only observed in neonatal mice. The following sentences in the same paragraph would also benefit from being placed into the same context when appropriate.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. These sentences have been corrected.

      - Introduction: "But functional features of the newly developed HC are circumspect." The authors probably meant "circumspect," but is this the appropriate word? Also, please use the plural of HC = HCs.

      The sentence has been corrected to “but the functional features of the newly developed HCs are circumspect”.

      - Introduction: Isn't an essential function of tight junctions in the organ of Corti the separation of fluid-filled spaces? Perhaps additional functions of tight junction proteins are unclear, but at least this one function appears clear.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. We added the “additional” before the “function” in this sentence.

      - Introduction: "using shRNA injection in postnatal (P) days (P1-7) mice." This is a rather vague statement that could be better defined. Perhaps mention that the injections targeted the round window and that an AAV-based method was used. Also, it is not clear from the methods whether the injection needle pierced the round window. Please clarify. Likewise, the methods state that these experiments were conducted in P1-P15 mice, but the main text says P1-P7. Later, in the results section and in the figure legend for Fig 7, the mice are between P1-P7 and P14; the figure itself is labeled with P1 and P14. However, data is presented (Fig 6) for injections at P2, P4, P7, and P14. In the text referring to Fig 6B in the results section, it is stated, "By contrast, the P14-21 inner ear transfected with Cldn9-shRNA produced no detectable increase..." Only data for P2, P4, P7, and P14 injections are presented. These are minor issues, but please check the inconsistencies because they make it difficult to follow.

      We corrected this sentence to “Analogous additional putative IHCs differentiation was observed when Cldn9-shRNA was injected through the round window to postnatal (P) days (P2-7, and P14) mice…”.  The label in Fig 7A has been changed to P2-7, and the text referring to Fig 6B in the result section has been changed to “the P14 inner ear transfected with Cldn9-shRNA produced no detectable increase...".

      - Last statement of the Introduction: "making Cldn9 a viable target for generating transformed IHCs." It is not clear what transformed IHCs are.

      We replaced the transformed with supernumerary.

      - To understand the Southern Blot analysis in Fig 1E, the location of BstAPI and BamHI restriction sites and the probe need to be illustrated in Fig 1D.

      The restriction sites BstAPI, (Bst), and BamHI (Bam) are indicated (Fig. 1D).

      - Please define the purple arrows and arrowheads in Fig 1D. What do the different colors for the backbone mean? I see red and green, but also orange and yellow in the floxed allele. In Fig 1F, is "Knock-in" synonymous with homozygote? Would it be clearer to use the nomenclature Cldn9(T/T), Cldn9(T/+), and Cldn9(+/+), which is used later in the text?

      We have made the changes as requested.

      - Results, first paragraph: "Results of RT-PCR..." This refers to quantitative RT-PCR; please add the word "quantitative."

      Thanks. We added “quantitative” to the sentence.

      - Results and Fig S1. Is the strong upregulation of Cldn9 mRNA (S1A) also reflected in stronger Cldn9 immunoreactivity?

      Yes, the strong upregulation of Cldn9 mRNA showed higher cldn9 immunoreactivity.

      - Results, Fig 1. Please add a schematic drawing showing all elements of the inducible gene expression cassette in the final transgenic allele, and please illustrate how the system works. This helps the reader to understand the strong Cldn9 mRNA upregulation in Cldn9(T/T) mice, where expression is likely driven by the CMV promoter and reciprocally, in the presence of doxycycline, the suppression of transcription by binding of the tTA-dox protein to the TRE elements of the modified CMV promoter. Is this a correct assumption?

      Yes, this is a correct assumption

      - Results, about Fig S3. Why is it important to investigate Cldn6 and ILDR1 levels in the context of Cldn9 downregulation? Also, that is meant with "no comparative differences in others?". If a potential compensatory effect is suspected, why are the authors not systematically characterizing the expression of other tight junction proteins with quantitative RT-PCR? The results shown in S3 are anecdotal, without proper quantification, and lack context.

      The goal is to examine the potential compensatory changes in other TJ proteins. It was not to examine all possible TJ proteins localized in the inner ear.

      Results, section headed with "Downregulation of..." First sentence. Fig. 2A-C à Fig. 2A-E.

      Thanks. We corrected the sentence “5-week-old mice Cldn9<sup>+/T</sup> cochleae displayed a notable row of ectopic HCs (Fig. 2A-C).” to “5-week-old mice Cldn9<sup>+/T</sup> cochleae displayed a notable row of ectopic HCs (Fig. 2A-E).”

      The same section: "were negatively labeled with anti-prestin antibody." Consider "were not labeled with antibody to prestin." Likewise, a few sentences below, please consider rephrasing "the ectopic HCs ... reacted positively to otoferlin antibodies". Also, "...expressed multiple CtBP2 labeling..." - this reads like an incomplete sentence.

      Thanks for the suggestions. We have corrected the three sentences mentioned.

      The phrase "putative ectopic" lacks clarity because "putative" could refer to "ectopic" (like an adverb). Consider swapping the two words and writing "ectopic putative IHCs" or simply "ectopic IHCs."

      Thanks for the suggestions. We replaced the “putative ectopic IHCs” with “ectopic IHCs” in all contexts.

      Please use more precise figure labels when referring to a specific figure panel. For example, "Additionally, the ectopic HCs show IHC bundle features (Fig. 2)," - Bundles are shown in Fig 2D and Fig 2E. Please check all instances where a full figure is mentioned, but the specific reference is to a panel of the figure. Another example, "... using quantitative RT-PCR (S7)..." would be more specific if Fig S7A is referred to.

      Thanks for the suggestions. We checked all instances and corrected the labels. Thanks!

      "IHC counts at different ages (P2-P21) and the cochlear frequency segments (4-32 kHz) demonstrate..."- the figure shows data for 8 kHz and 32 kHz; please revise: "segments (8 kHz and 32 kHz) demonstrate."

      This sentence has been revised based on your suggestion. Thanks!

      Please add a legend to Fig. 3C (like the one shown in Fig. 2F).

      Thanks for the reminder. The legend for Fig. 3C was modified.

      Fig 4A and Fig 4B. It is impossible to distinguish the open/closed circles and the many lines. Please consider a different format or an extended supplemental figure. Also, drawing a line connection between the 32 kHz and click data points in 4A is inappropriate.

      Instead of the open/closed circles, the dashed line means Cldn9<sup>+/+</sup> mice, and solid lines represent Cldn9<sup>+/T</sup> mice. We added the line labels. The line connecting between 32 kHz and click data points was removed.

      Fig 4, legend. Please define BHB and BHC levels.

      BHB and BHC are defined.

      The paragraph "Synaptic features of PE IHCs match original IHCs" is confusing because it states the following: "The synapses between the IHCs and auditory neurons at the apical, middle, and basal cochlear locations from 5-week-old Cldn9+/+ and Cldn9+/T mice show substantial differences." The meaning of the heading, therefore, does not match what is ultimately shown and discussed.

      We have changed the title to “Synaptic features of ectopic IHCs and original IHCs”.

      Moreover, no actual features of synapses are investigated; CtBP2/Homer pairs were used to identify afferent synapses, which this reviewer would argue provides a reasonable estimate of the number of synapses where pre- and post-synaptic markers are detected in close vicinity. It would be helpful to describe the method for counting juxtaposed CtBP2 and Homer-labeled puncta with more detail.

      The method section now includes more information about the synapse count, which this reviewer would argue provides a reasonable estimate of the number of synapses where pre- and post-synaptic markers are detected in close proximity.

      The final concluding sentence of the section also suggests that synaptic transmission from PE IHCs might be compromised because significant differences in synapse numbers were identified. It would be important to mention this.

      Thanks for the reminder. We added this information to the final concluding sentence.

      Fig. 5C, 5D; legend. Is "co-expressed" the right word choice? Consider "colocalized" or "juxtaposed".

      The "co-expressed" has been replaced with "colocalized".

      Voltage-clamp recordings of P21 inner hair cell mechanoelectrical transduction currents. This reviewer cannot identify a previous publication describing the details of this method on P21 cochlear inner hair cells; this seems like an excellent methodological advance.

      Yes, we can record data from older mice. Thanks for pointing it out.

      "Transfection in vivo of Cldn9 shRNA," the P14-21 inner ear transfected with Cldn9-shRNA." Plus, additional use of the word "transfection." Transfection generally means the introduction of plain nucleic acid into cells. The word refers to methods that do not use viruses. In contrast, "transduction" is the term used for virus-mediated gene transfer. The authors used AAVs. Please correct for appropriate scientific terminology.

      Thanks for the clarification. This information has been corrected accordingly.

      "A slight decline in the amplitude of the EP and a substantial rise in perilymph K+ was detected in 8-month-old Cldn9+/T (S7)." Probably Fig. S8A,B is meant.

      Yes, it referred to Fig. S8 A, B. We corrected it in the result section. Thanks!

      Heading "Discussions" -> "Discussion"

      The focus of the second part of the discussion on potential interactions between Cldn9 suppression and known signaling pathways is essential. The logic that is presented with respect to Notch signaling, however, is not clear and misleading. For example, it is not obvious what is meant by "Cldn9 subserves the signaling catalyst to activate NICD cascades" and whether this statement is supported by any published data.

      The statement was a suggestion and has been qualified with a “may” clause (line 299).

      The authors might consider discussing whether the observed effect caused by Cldn9 elimination is a specific role of the Cldn9 protein itself or is an epiphenomenon resulting from cytomechanical changes in the developing and maturing organ of Corti. This would add a potential Notch-independent component for a possible interpretation of the observations.

      We state lines 302-304 “Alternatively, Cldn9 levels disruption may alter the mechanical properties of the developing and maturing organ of Corti that may trigger ectopic IHC differentiation, an epiphenomenon independent of the Notch signaling“.

      Methods:

      "Deletion of the selection marker in the tTA cassette by crossing the F1 mouse with the embryonic Cre line (B6.129S4-Meox2tm1(cre)Sor/J)." This sentence seems to be incomplete.

      Thanks for pointing it out. This sentence has been rewritten.

      "Images were captured under a confocal microscope." Consider writing "with a confocal microscope".

      This sentence has been corrected. Thanks!

      RNA extraction and... How many mice were used per experiment? 10-15 or just 10?

      The mice number for the RNA extraction is between 10 and 15. Thanks

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Below are my suggestions, questions, and criticisms.

      (1) The red outline on Fig1A schematic does not correspond to the previously published expression pattern of CLDN9 in the organ of Corti reticular lamina tight junctions (Kitajiri et al, 2004, Nakano et al., 2009, Ramzan et al., 2021). Also, there are no tight junctions all around the pillar cells. The tight junctions are restricted to the sites of tight attachments between two cells. The immunofluorescence staining using CLDN9 antibody looks rather cytoplasmic (Fig 1 and Fig S1) than associated with the tight junctions as it was shown by immunoEM data here and reported previously (Kitajiri et al, 2004; Nakano et al, 2009; Ramzan et al, 2021). Please correct the schematic and explain your data.

      We have redrawn the diagram (Fig. 7).

      (2) The CLDN9 staining in Figure 1, B and C, highlights the cytoplasm of the supporting cells, and hair cells devoid of the staining. From the images in Fig. S1C, it also looks like CLDN9 is present only in supporting cells and not in hair cells? How would the authors reconcile their data with Cldn9 expression data from the gEAR database and Ramzan et al.'s 2021 RNAscope data? Please provide the validation of the antibody used in this study.

      We recognize the reviewer’s concern but RNA and protein levels are not always in parallel.

      (3) Figure 1D. The dash lines from the targeting vector to the wt allele seem to indicate a recombination event. Please do not show the recombination event, instead just show what part of the targeting vector was incorporated to replace wt Cldn9. There is no description in the figure 1 legend what purple arrows and arrowheads mean and what yellow and orange line segments in the floxed allele schematic indicate. Please also show where the BstAPI and BamHI restriction enzyme sites are.

      We have provided supplement Fig 1., and have noted the BstAPI and BamHI restriction enzyme sites in Fig. 1D.

      (4) What does the organ of Corti that has 40-to-55-fold increase in Cldn9 mRNA expression looks like before dox treatment? Any abnormalities at all? How is CLDN9 protein localization looks in the Cldn9+/T untreated mice? Do they have normal number of IHCs? Cldn9+/T untreated mice should be used as another control at least in Figure S1. What does the organ of Corti that has a 40-to-55-fold increase in Cldn9 mRNA expression look like before dox treatment? Are there any abnormalities at all?

      The untreated Cldn9<sup>+/T</sup> mice can grow normally but are not fertile. So, we used a very low concentration of dox water (0.1 mg/ml) instead of normal water to keep the breeding pairs. The protein level increased in the Cldn9<sup>+/T</sup> mice compared with Cldn9<sup>+/+</sup>mice. With 0.1 mg/ml dox water, they also showed ectopic IHCs.

      (5) It is interesting that decline of 0.4-0.6-fold in mRNA level leads to about 8-fold decrease in protein level based on your immunoEM data on tight junctions of IHC with supporting cells. Do you observe the same effect in OHC-SC tight junctions, or the decrease was observed selectively around IHCs?

      The reviewer is alluding to matching RNA and protein levels. It appears that for Clnd9 one cannot expect a closely matched relationship.

      (6) The quality of the immunoEM data is great, but a control of secondary antibody alone staining in wt and Cldn9+/T dox treated should be shown and compared to the Cldn9+/T treated sample.

      We thank the reviewer for raising the issue. Secondary antibodies are used as a control in all immunoEMs in the laboratory. We opted not to show negative results.

      (7) The authors observed a decrease in Cldn6 expression albeit not quantitative in response to Cldn9 downregulation. How were the immunofluorescence signals compared and evaluated? Please provide a detailed description of the method used. Did the authors used the same image acquisition parameters? Was the Cldn9 and Cldn6 immunostaining done using same protocol with the same aliquot and dilution of the secondary antibodies, etc.? The staining for CLDN6 seems to be concentrated in the cytoplasm of supporting cells, and not in the tight junctions, similar to CLDN9 immunoreactivity shown in Fig. S1C and to the ILDR1 pattern of staining in Fig. S3. How can the authors explain this? How were the antibodies validated?

      The Cldn9 and Cldn6 immunostaining were done using the same protocol with the same aliquot and dilution of the secondary antibodies.

      (8) CLDN14 is also expressed in the organ of Corti tight junctions. What happened to this TJ protein during CLDN9 downregulation?

      We detected Cldn14 with immunostaining in the Cldn9+/T mice and Cldn9+/+ mice fed with 0.25 mg/ml dox water, and the results showed increased expression of Cldn14 in Cldn9+/T mice. Detail alterations of other TJ proteins have been reserved for future studies. 

      (9) When supernumerary IHCs were observed in Cldn9+/T mice, have the authors noticed a corresponding decrease in supporting cells surrounding IHCs? Quantification of the IHCs supporting cells would be useful. Do the ectopic IHCs have apical tight junctions with original IHCs or they are surrounded by supporting cells?

      We quantified the SCs around the IHCs but did not detect significant differences among the groups.

      (10) The authors indicated that viable PE IHCs were observed in 15 months old Cldn9+/T dox treated mice. How stereocilia bundles look in these ectopic hair cells? Are they preserved similar to the original IHCs or degenerated? It is hard to see this in Fig 3, phalloidin panel. High-resolution SEM would show this better.

      For the remaining ectopic IHCs in 15 months, we did not detect apparent differences in hair bundles compared with the original IHCs.

      (11) Interestingly, the authors indicate that the highest number of the ectopic IHCs were developed in the apical turn and the higher elevation of ABR threshold was also observed at low frequencies end. This may indicate that extra IHCs do not help hearing function.

      The extra IHCs showed along the whole cochlea, even though it is more obvious in the apical turn. The declined hearing may have resulted from the leakage of the endolymph K+ to the perilymph and EP decline.

      (12) No age-matched wt control is shown for decreased expression of Cldn9 after shRNA injection at P2 (Fig. 6A).

      As indicated earlier, we opted to state but did not show negative results.

      (13) Figure 6C. The better- quality SEM images showing a longer stretch of IHCs are needed to convince readers that there are ectopic IHCs that are well preserved in 5-6 weeks old mice in all cochlear turns after GFP-Cldn9 shRNA treatment at P2-P7.

      In S4, we showed that there are ectopic IHCs along the cochlear axis.

      (14) Do scrambled shRNA control samples had some ectopic IHCs? This control is missing in Fig.6D.

      No scrambled shRNA controls did not show ectopic IHCs. We have stated it.

      (15) Figure 7B, lower schematic. There are no known continuous tight junctions and CLDN9 expression around the OHCs and IHCs. CLDN9 is known to be concentrated at the reticular lamina tight junctions which separate the endolymph from perilymph. Please, correct all schematics accordingly.

      We have made the changes as requested.

      Minor comments:

      (1) Page 1, Abstract. I would not say "making HC loss incurable" since recent gene therapy results show some advances in this direction. Please rephrase more accurately.

      We have made the changes as requested.

      (2) Page 4, Results, line 5; please rephrase "PCR of tail tissue samples performed genotyping."

      It has been corrected to “The genotyping was performed by the PCR with the tail tissue.”

      (3) Fig. 1 legend, panel B, replace "showing IHC stained myosin7a" with "showing IHC stained by myosin7a". Also, in the same sentence, "phalloidin, actin (green) antibodies," Phalloidin is not an antibody; please change this.

      Thanks. We have corrected this information.

      (4) Fig 2C, IHC label obscures the view of IHCs, please move this label out and use an arrow to point to IHCs.

      We have made the changes as requested.

      (5) Figure 4, title. Replace "currents elicited original" with "current elicited from original".

      This sentence has been corrected. Thanks.

      (6) Figure 4, panel A. It is hard to see the open symbols on the graph. Are they associated with the dash lines? Please make them more visible or indicate what dash lines are. "ABR threshold for (n=12)" should be "ABR threshold for Cldn9+/+(n=12)"?

      Yes, they are associated with the dash lines. We added the labels for the solid lines and dash lines. "ABR threshold for (n=12)" was corrected to "ABR threshold for Cldn9+/+(n=12)."

      (7) Figure 4, legend. "Within each wt and heterozygote mice, there was no significant shift...". Do you mean within each group of mice? Also "Mean DPOAE threshold for 2-8 mos (n=9) was tested,..." Do you mean (n=9) for each group or what group?

      Yes, "Within each wt and heterozygote mice, there was no significant shift..." has been revised. The number of mice in each group for the DPOAE test was clarified in the Fig. 4B legend. Thanks.

      (8) Please label the X axis in Figure 4D.

      The X-axis has been labeled (Time (s))

      (9) Figure 4 B, do the colors of the lines indicate the same age groups as in Fig 4A? Do the dash lines associate with open symbols? Please state this clearly in the figure's legend.

      Yes. We added this information in Fig. 4B legend.

      (10) Figure 4D. Please label the X axis of the fluorescence intensity graph.

      The X-axis has been labeled (Time (s))

      (11) Figure 4G, legend. Replace "(mean +std)" with "(mean +SD)" for consistency here and in Figure 5 legend.

      Thanks. We replaced "(mean +std)" with "(mean +SD) in the legend of Fig. 4G and Fig.5 and Fig.6.

      (12) Figure 5B, legend. Replace "makers" with "markers".

      Thanks. This information was corrected.

      (13) Figure 6A, legend. There is no downregulation of Cldn9 by shRNA shown in "S5". Do the authors mean Figure S7? Please, correct "S5" to "Fig. S7".

      This information was corrected. Thanks.

      (14) Figure 6A, legend. There is no reduced CLDN9 protein expression shown in Fig. 1C. Do the authors mean Fig. 6A, third panel? Please correct the phrase "reduced protein expression (Fig. 1C) is shown in the 3rd Panel (Cldn9, red)" accordingly, and do not capitalize "p" in the "3rd Panel".

      This information was corrected. Thanks (line 917-918).

      (15) Also there, replace "The right Panel shows two rows of IHCs (marked HC marker, Myo7a (cyan), and the merged photomicrograph" with "The right panel shows the merged image with two rows of IHCs stained with HC marker Myo7a (cyan) and the expression of Ad-GFP-mCldn9 shRNA (green) in the adjacent row of supporting cells". Please indicate in what cells Ad-GFP-mCldn9 shRNA (green) is expressed. It looks like only one row of supporting cells has this green signal.

      This information was corrected.

      (16) Figure 6B, legend. Replace "Examples of photomicrographs of sections of the whole-mount cochlea of P2, P4, P7, and P14 Cldn9 shRNA injected mice" with "Examples of phalloidin stained whole-mount organ of Corti samples from cochleae of the wild-type mice injected at P2, P4, P7 and P14 with Cldn9 shRNA"

      This sentence has been modified based on your suggestions. Thanks!

      (17) Replace "action labeling" with "actin labeled."

      Thanks!  The "action labeling" has been replaced with "actin labeled." Line 924

      (18) Figure 6C. Insert "C" before SEM images description in the legend. The authors stated that SEM images of "5-6-wks-old mice" are shown. Please indicate the exact age of mice shown on each image and at what age these mice received the virus injection.

      Thanks!  The “C” has been added. We have noted that the SEM images are from 5-week-old mice" in the legend, and the virus was injected at P2.

      (19) Figure 6D, legend. Last sentence: move "are significantly different" and insert this between "IHCs" and "at P2 apex".

      This information was corrected.

      (20) Figure S7, legend. Replace "(sram)" with "(scram)" as in the figure itself. Also, Indicate the age of samples at the harvesting time for imaging and the age at injection of Cldn9 shRNA.

      "(sram)" has been replaced with "(scram)". The age of samples at the harvesting time for imaging and the age at injection of Cldn9 shRNA are indicated.

      (21) Figure S8. Replace "4 mos-old" and "8 mos-old" with "4 months-old" and "8 months-old" everywhere in the legend and in the figure labels.

      We have made the changes as suggested.

      (22) Page 8, 5th lane from the bottom. Change "EP and K+ concentration endolymph" to "EP and K+ concentration of the endolymph".

      It has been corrected. Thanks.

      (23) Page 8, next to the last sentence before the Discussion. Wrong figure number, please replace "(S7)" with "Fig. S8".

      It has been corrected. Thanks.

    1. Author response:

      Reviewer #1(Public review):

      Summary:

      This manuscript details the results of a small pilot study of neoadjuvant radiotherapy followed by combination treatment with hormone therapy and dalpiciclib for early-stage HR+/HER2-negative breast cancer.

      Strengths:

      The strengths of the manuscript include the scientific rationale behind the approach and the inclusion of some simple translational studies.

      Weaknesses:

      The main weakness of the manuscript is that overly strong conclusions are made by the authors based on a very small study of twelve patients. A study this small is not powered to fully characterize the efficacy or safety of a treatment approach, and can, at best, demonstrate feasibility. These data need validation in a larger cohort before they can have any implications for clinical practice, and the treatment approach outlined should not yet be considered a true alternative to standard evidence-based approaches.

      I would urge the authors and readers to exercise caution when comparing results of this 12-patient pilot study to historical studies, many of which were much larger, and had different treatment protocols and baseline patient characteristics. Cross-trial comparisons like this are prone to mislead, even when comparing well powered studies. With such a small sample size, the risk of statistical error is very high, and comparisons like this have little meaning.

      We greatly appreciate your evaluation of our study and fully agree with the limitations you have pointed out. We have clearly stated the limitations of the small sample size and emphasized the need for a larger population to validate our preliminary findings in the discussion section (Lines 311-316).

      We acknowledge that this small sample size is not powered to characterize this regimen as a promising alternative regimen in the treatment of patients with HR-positive, HER2-negative breast cancer. Therefore, we have revised the description of this regimen to serve as a feasible option for neoadjuvant therapy in HR-positive, HER2-negative breast cancers both in the discussion (Lines 317-320) and the abstract (Lines 71-72).

      We agree with you that cross-trial comparisons should be approached with caution due to differences in study designs and patient populations. In our discussion section, we acknowledge that small sample size limited the comparison of our data with historical data in the literature due to the potential bias (Lines 312-313). We clearly state that such comparisons hold limited significance (Lines 313-314) and suggest a larger population to validate our preliminary findings.

      • Why was dalpiciclib chosen, as opposed to another CDK4/6 inhibitor?

      Thank you for your comments. The rationale for selecting dalpiciclib over other CDK4/6 inhibitors in our study is primarily based on the following considerations:

      (1) Clinical Efficacy: In several clinical trials, including DAWNA-1 and DAWNA-2, the combination of dalpiciclib with endocrine therapies such as fulvestrant, letrozole, or anastrozole has been shown to significantly extend the progression-free survival (PFS) in patients with hormone receptor-positive, HER2-negative advanced breast cancer (1-2).

      (2) Tolerability and Management of Adverse Reactions: The primary adverse reactions associated with dalpiciclib are neutropenia, leukopenia, and anemia. Despite these potential side effects, the majority of patients are able to tolerate them, and with proper monitoring and management, these reactions can be effectively mitigated (1-2).

      (3) Comparable pharmacodynamic with other CDK4/6 inhibitors: The combination of CDK4/6 inhibitors, including palbociclib, ribociclib, and abemaciclib, with aromatase inhibitors has demonstrated an enhanced ability to suppress tumor proliferation and increase the rate of clinical response in neoadjuvant therapy for HR-positive, HER2-negative breast cancer (3-5). Furthermore, preclinical studies have shown that dalpiciclib has comparable in vivo and in vitro pharmacodynamic activity to palbociclib, suggesting its potential effectiveness in similar treatment regimens (6).

      (4) Accessibility and Regulatory Approval: Dalpiciclib has gained marketing approval in China on December 31, 2021, which facilitates the accessibility of this medication, making it a more convenient option when considering treatment plans.

      References:

      (1) Zhang P, Zhang Q, Tong Z, et al. Dalpiciclib plus letrozole or anastrozole versus placebo plus letrozole or anastrozole as first-line treatment in patients with hormone receptor-positive, HER2-negative advanced breast cancer (DAWNA-2): a multicentre, randomised, double-blind, placebo-controlled, phase 3 trial(J). The Lancet Oncology, 2023, 24(6): 646-657.

      (2) Xu B, Zhang Q, Zhang P, et al. Dalpiciclib or placebo plus fulvestrant in hormone receptor-positive and HER2-negative advanced breast cancer: a randomized, phase 3 trial(J). Nature medicine, 2021, 27(11): 1904-1909.

      (3) Hurvitz S A, Martin M, Press M F, et al. Potent cell-cycle inhibition and upregulation of immune response with abemaciclib and anastrozole in neoMONARCH, phase II neoadjuvant study in HR+/HER2− breast cancer(J). Clinical Cancer Research, 2020, 26(3): 566-580.

      (4) Prat A, Saura C, Pascual T, et al. Ribociclib plus letrozole versus chemotherapy for postmenopausal women with hormone receptor-positive, HER2-negative, luminal B breast cancer (CORALLEEN): an open-label, multicentre, randomised, phase 2 trial(J). The lancet oncology, 2020, 21(1): 33-43.

      (5) Ma C X, Gao F, Luo J, et al. NeoPalAna: neoadjuvant palbociclib, a cyclin-dependent kinase 4/6 inhibitor, and anastrozole for clinical stage 2 or 3 estrogen receptor–positive breast cancer(J). Clinical Cancer Research, 2017, 23(15): 4055-4065.

      (6) Long F, He Y, Fu H, et al. Preclinical characterization of SHR6390, a novel CDK 4/6 inhibitor, in vitro and in human tumor xenograft models(J). Cancer science, 2019, 110(4): 1420-1430.

      • The eligibility criteria are not consistent throughout the manuscript, sometimes saying early breast cancer, other times saying stage II/III by MRI criteria.

      criteria in our manuscript. We deeply apologize for any confusion caused by these inconsistencies. We have revised the term from “early-stage HR-positive, HER2-negative breast cancer” to “early or locally advanced HR-positive, HER2-negative breast cancer” (Lines 128 and 150). The term “early or locally advanced” encompasses two different stages of breast cancer, whereas “Stage II/III by MRI criteria” refers to specific stages within the TNM staging system.

      • The authors should emphasize the 25% rate of conversion from mastectomy to breast conservation and also report the type and nature of axillary lymph node surgery performed. As the authors note in the discussion section, rates of pathologic complete response/RCB scores are less prognostic for hormone-receptor-positive breast cancer than other subtypes, so one of the main rationales for neoadjuvant medical therapy is for surgical downstaging. This is a clinically relevant outcome.

      We appreciate your constructive comments. Based on your suggestions, we have made the following revisions and additions to the article.

      The breast conservation rate serves as a secondary endpoint in our study (Line 62 and 179). We have highlighted the significant 25% conversion rate from mastectomy to breast conservation in both the results (Lines 229-230) and discussion sections (Lines 290-292).

      In our study, all patients underwent lymph node surgery, including sentinel lymph node biopsy or axillary lymph node dissection. Among them, 58.3% of patients (7/12) underwent sentinel lymph node biopsies.

      We agree with your point that the prognostic value of pathologic complete response/RCB score is lower for hormone receptor-positive breast cancer compared to other subtypes, we have revised the discussion section to clarify that one of the principal objectives for neoadjuvant therapy in this patient population is to facilitate downstaging and enhance the rate of breast conservation (Lines 289-290). And also emphasized that this neoadjuvant therapeutic regiment appeared to improve the likelihood of pathological downstaging and achieve a margin-free resection, particularly for those with locally advanced and high-risk breast cancer (Lines 293-295).

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Firstly, as this is a single-arm preliminary study, we are curious about the order of radiotherapy and the endocrine therapy. Besides, considering the radiotherapy, we also concern about the recovery of the wound after the surgery and whether related data were collected.

      Thanks for the comments. The treatment sequence in this study is to first administer radiotherapy, followed by endocrine therapy. A meta-analysis has indicated that concurrent radiotherapy with endocrine therapy does not significantly impact the incidence of radiation-induced toxicity or survival rates compared to a sequential approach (1). In light of preclinical research suggesting enhanced therapeutic efficacy when radiotherapy is delivered prior to CDK4/6 inhibitors, we have opted to administer radiotherapy before the combination therapy of CDK4/6 inhibitors and hormone therapy (2).

      In our study, we collected data on surgical wound recovery. All 12 patients had Class I incisions, which healed by primary intention. The wounds exhibited no signs of redness, swelling, exudate, or fat necrosis.

      References:

      (1) Li Y F, Chang L, Li W H, et al. Radiotherapy concurrent versus sequential with endocrine therapy in breast cancer: A meta-analysis(J). The Breast, 2016, 27: 93-98.

      (2) Petroni G, Buqué A, Yamazaki T, et al. Radiotherapy delivered before CDK4/6 inhibitors mediates superior therapeutic effects in ER+ breast cancer(J). Clinical Cancer Research, 2021, 27(7): 1855-1863.

      Secondly, in the methodology, please describe the sample size estimation of this study and follow up details.

      Thanks for pointing out this crucial omission. Sample size estimation for this study and follow-up details have been added in the methodology section. The section on sample size estimation has been revised to state in Statistical analysis: “This exploratory study involves 12 patients, with the sample size determined based on clinical considerations, not statistical factors (Lines 210-211).” The section on follow up has been revised to state in Procedures section “A 5-year follow-up is conducted every 3 months during the first 2 years, and every 6 months for the subsequent 3 years. Additionally, safety data are collected within 90 days after surgery for subjects who discontinue study treatment (Lines 169-172).”

      Thirdly, in Table 1, the item HER2 expression, it's better to categorise HER2 into 0, 1+, 2+ and FISH-.

      Thank you very much for pointing out this issue. The item HER2 expression in Table 1 has been revised from “negative, 1+, 2+ and FISH-” to “0, 1+, 2+ and FISH-”.

  4. notebooksharing.space notebooksharing.space
    1. helps) 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42# Your answers here # Berechne den temporalen und zonalen Durchschnitt des Meeresspiegeldrucks (msl) slp = ds['msl'] / 100 # Umrechnung von Pa auf hPa slp_avg = slp.mean(dim='time').mean(dim='longitude') # Berechne den temporalen und zonalen Durchschnitt der Oberflächenwinde (u10, v10) u10 = ds['u10'] v10 = ds['v10'] u10_avg = u10.mean(dim='time').mean(dim='longitude') v10_avg = v10.mean(dim='time').mean(dim='longitude') # Erstelle die Plots fig, axs = plt.subplots(3, 1, figsize=(10, 15)) # Plot für den durchschnittlichen Meeresspiegeldruck axs[0].plot(slp_avg, label='Mean Sea-Level Pressure', color='blue') axs[0].axhline(y=1013, color='black', linestyle='--', label='Standard Pressure (1013 hPa)') axs[0].set_title('Zonal and Temporal Average of Sea-Level Pressure') axs[0].set_xlabel('Latitude') axs[0].set_ylabel('Pressure (hPa)') axs[0].legend() # Plot für den durchschnittlichen Wind in u-Richtung (zonal) axs[1].plot(u10_avg, label='Mean u10 Wind', color='green') axs[1].axhline(y=0, color='black', linestyle='--', label='Zero Line') axs[1].set_title('Zonal and Temporal Average of u10 Wind') axs[1].set_xlabel('Latitude') axs[1].set_ylabel('Wind Speed') axs[1].legend() # Plot für den durchschnittlichen Wind in v-Richtung (meridional) axs[2].plot(v10_avg, label='Mean v10 Wind', color='red') axs[2].axhline(y=0, color='black', linestyle='--', label='Zero Line') axs[2].set_title('Zonal and Temporal Average of v10 Wind') axs[2].set_xlabel('Latitude') axs[2].set_ylabel('Wind Speed (m/s)') axs[2].legend() # Layout und Darstellung der Plots plt.tight_layout() plt.show()

      Attention: There is a big problem in the x-ticks! Your Latitude goes from 0 to 2XX... Interpreting and analysing these values is very difficult (in reality these are entries from 90°N to -90°S in 0.75° steps...)... Normally you should have seen that while answering to the questions...

      The reason is that you just plotted slp_avg, u10_avg, without the correct x-values... You would have needed to plot the latitude values versus slp_avg, u10_avg. Or directly the "DataArray", e.g. via:

      ds_zavg = ds.mean(dim=['time', 'longitude']) slp_zavg = ds_zavg.msl / 100 slp_zavg.plot()

      or:
      plt.plot(slp_zavg.latitude, slp_zavg.values)
  5. notebooksharing.space notebooksharing.space
    1. In [4]: t2 = ds.t2m t2m_avg_cel = t2.mean(dim='time') -273.15 ax = plt.axes(projection=ccrs.Robinson()) t2m_avg_cel.plot(ax=ax, transform=ccrs.PlateCarree(), cmap='inferno', center=False, vmin=-40, vmax=20, levels=7, cbar_kwargs={'label': '°C'}) ax.set_title('Average annual 2m air temperature, ERA5 1979-2018') ax.coastlines(); ax.gridlines();

      nice labels and title. I would prefer a 5°C binning or a continuous scale. But this depends a bit on the question you want to analyse with the figure. The color-scale may be a bit misleading. As the warmest temperatures are bright, a colormap going from blue to red may eventually be more intuitive..

      Would have been great to have first the figures and then the answers to the questions. As you need the figures to answer the questions.

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      Reply to the reviewers

      Reviewer #1

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      Summary: The manuscript by Yang et al. describes a new CME accessory protein. CCDC32 has been previously suggested to interact with AP2 and in the present work the authors confirm this interaction and show that it is a bona fide CME regulator. In agreement with its interaction with AP2, CCDC32 recruitment to CCPs mirrors the accumulation of clathrin. Knockdown of CCDC32 reduces the amount of productive CCPs, suggestive of a stabilisation role in early clathrin assemblies. Immunoprecipitation experiments mapped the interaction of CCDC42 to the α-appendage of the AP2 complex α-subunit. Finally, the authors show that the CCDC32 nonsense mutations found in patients with cardio-facial-neuro-developmental syndrome disrupt the interaction of this protein to the AP2 complex. The manuscript is well written and the conclusions regarding the role of CCDC32 in CME are supported by good quality data. As detailed below, a few improvements/clarifications are needed to reinforce some of the conclusions, especially the ones regarding CFNDS.

      Response: We thank the referee for their positive comments. In light of a recently published paper describing CCDC32 as a co-chaperone required for AP2 assembly (Wan et al., PNAS, 2024, see reviewer 2), we have added several additional experiments to address all concerns and consequently gained further insight into CCDC32-AP2 interactions and the important dual role of CCDC32 in regulating CME.

      Major comments:

      1) Why did the protein could just be visualized at CCPs after knockdown of the endogenous protein? This is highly unusual, especially on stable cell lines. Could this be that the tag is interfering with the expressed protein function rendering it incapable of outcompeting the endogenous? Does this points to a regulated recruitment?

      Response: The reviewer is correct, this would be unusual; however, it is not the case. We misspoke in the text (although the figure legend was correct) these experiments were performed without siRNA knockdown and we can indeed detect eGFP-CCDC32 being recruited to CCPs in the presence of endogenous protein. Nonetheless, we repeated the experiment to be certain.

      2) The disease mutation used in the paper does not correspond to the truncation found in patients. The authors use an 1-54 truncation, but the patients described in Harel et al. have frame shifts at the positions 19 (Thr19Tyrfs*12) and 64 (Glu64Glyfs*12), while the patient described in Abdalla et al. have the deletion of two introns, leading to a frameshift around amino acid 90. Moreover, to be precisely test the function of these disease mutations, one would need to add the extra amino acids generated by the frame shift. For example, as denoted in the mutation description in Harel et al., the frameshift at position 19 changes the Threonine 19 to a Tyrosine and ads a run of 12 extra amino acids (Thr19Tyrfs*12).

      Response: The label of the disease mutant p.(Thr19Tyrfs∗12) and p.(Glu64Glyfs∗12) is based on a 194aa polypeptide version of CCDC32 initiated at a nonconventional start site that contains a 9 aa peptide (VRGSCLRFQ) upstream of the N-terminus we show. Thus, we are indeed using the appropriate mutation site (see: https://www.uniprot.org/uniprotkb/Q9BV29/entry). The reviewer is correct that we have not included the extra 12 aa in our construct; however as these residues are not present in the other CFNDS mutants, we think it unlikely that they contribute to the disease phenotype. Rather, as neither of the clinically observed mutations contain the 78-98 aa sequence required for AP2 binding and CME function, we are confident that this defect contributed to the disease. Thus, we are including the data on the CCDC32(1-54) mutant, as we believe these results provide a valuable physiological context to our studies.

      3) The frameshift caused by the CFNDS mutations (especially the one studied) will likely lead to nonsense mediated RNA decay (NMD). The frameshift is well within the rules where NMD generally kicks in. Therefore, I am unsure about the functional insights of expressing a disease-related protein which is likely not present in patients.

      Response: We thank the reviewer for bringing up this concern. However, as shown in new Figure S1, the mutant protein is expressed at comparable levels as the WT, suggesting that NMD is not occurring.

      4) Coiled coils generally form stable dimers. The typically hydrophobic core of these structures is not suitable for transient interactions. This complicates the interpretation of the results regarding the role of this region as the place where the interaction to AP2 occurs. If the coiled coil holds a stable CCDC32 dimer, disrupting this dimer could reduce the affinity to AP2 (by reduced avidity) to the actual binding site. A construct with an orthogonal dimeriser or a pulldown of the delta78-98 protein with of the GST AP2a-AD could be a good way to sort this issue.

      Response: We were unable to model a stable dimer (or other oligomer) of this protein with high confidence using Alphafold 3.0. Moreover, we were unable to detect endogenous CCDC32 co-immunoprecipitating with eGFP-CCDC32 (Fig. S6C). Thus, we believe that the moniker, based solely on the alpha-helical content of the protein is a misnomer. We have explained this in the main text.

      Minor comments:

      1) The authors interchangeably use the term "flat CCPs" and "flat clathrin lattices". While these are indeed related, flat clathrin lattices have been also used to refer to "clathrin plaques". To avoid confusion, I suggest sticking to the term "flat CCPs" to refer to the CCPs which are in their early stages of maturation.

      Response: Agreed. Thank you for the suggestion. We have renamed these structures flat clathrin assemblies, as they do not acquire the curvature needed to classify them as pits, and do not grow to the size that would classify then as plaques.

      Significance

      General assessment: CME drives the internalisation of hundreds of receptors and surface proteins in practically all tissues, making it an essential process for various physiological processes. This versatility comes at the cost of a large number of molecular players and regulators. To understand this complexity, unravelling all the components of this process is vital. The manuscript by Yang et al. gives an important contribution to this effort as it describes a new CME regulator, CCDC32, which acts directly at the main CME adaptor AP2. The link to disease is interesting, but the authors need to refine their experiments. The requirement for endogenous knockdown for recruitment of the tagged CCDC32 is unusual and requires further exploration.

      Advance: The increased frequency of abortive events presented by CCDC32 knockdown cells is very interesting, as it hints to an active mechanism that regulates the stabilisation and growth of clathrin coated pits. The exact way clathrin coated pits are stabilised is still an open question in the field.

      Audience: This is a basic research manuscript. However, given the essential role of CME in physiology and the growing number of CME players involved in disease, this manuscript can reach broader audiences.

      Response: We thank the referee for recognizing the 'interesting' advances our studies have made and for considering these studies as 'an important contribution' to 'an essential process for various physiological processes' and able 'to reach broader audiences'. We have addressed and reconciled the reviewer's concerns in our revised manuscript.

      Field of expertise of the reviewer: Clathrin mediated endocytosis, cell biology, microscopy, biochemistry.


      Reviewer #2

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      In this manuscript, the authors demonstrate that CCDC32 regulates clathrin-mediated endocytosis (CME). Some of the findings are consistent with a recent report by Wan et al. (2024 PNAS), such as the observation that CCDC32 depletion reduces transferrin uptake and diminishes the formation of clathrin-coated pits. The primary function of CCDC32 is to regulate AP2 assembly, and its depletion leads to AP2 degradation. However, this study did not examine AP2 expression levels. CCDC32 may bind to the appendage domain of AP2 alpha, but it also binds to the core domain of AP2 alpha. Overall, while this work presents some interesting ideas, it remains unclear whether CCDC32 regulates AP2 beyond the assembly step.

      Response: We thank the reviewer for drawing our attention to the Wan et al. paper, that appeared while this work was under review. However, our in vivo data are not fully consistent with the report from Wan et al. The discrepancies reveal a dual function of CCDC32 in CME that was masked by complete knockout vs siRNA knockdown of the protein, and also likely affected by the position of the GFP-tag (C- vs N-terminal) on this small protein. Thus:

      • Contrary to Wan et al., we do not detect any loss of AP2 expression (see new Figure S3A-B) upon siRNA knockdown. Most likely the ~40% residual CCDC32 present after siRNA knockdown is sufficient to fulfill its catalytic chaperone function but not its structural role in regulating CME beyond the AP2 assembly step.
      • Contrary to Wan et al., we have shown that CCDC32 indeed interacts with intact AP2 complex (Figure S3C and 6B,C) showing that all 4 subunits of the AP2 complex co-IP with full length eGFP-CCDC32. Interestingly, whereas the full length CCDC32 pulls down the intact AP2 complex, co-IP of the ∆78-98 mutant retains its ability to pull down the b2-µ2 hemicomplex, its interactions with α:σ2 are severely reduced. While this result is consistent with the report of Wan et al that CCDC32 binds to the α:σ2 hemi-complex, it also suggests that the interactions between CCDC32 and AP2 are more complex and will require further studies.
      • Contrary to Wan et al., we provide strong evidence that CCDC32 is recruited to CCPs. Interestingly, modeling with AlphaFold 3.0 identifies a highly probably interaction between alpha helices encoded by residues 66-91 on CCDC32 and residues 418-438 on a. The latter are masked by µ2-C in the closed confirmation of the AP2 core, but exposed in the open confirmation triggered by cargo binding, suggesting that CCDC32 might only bind to membrane-bound AP2. Thus, our findings are indeed novel and indicate striking multifunctional roles for CCDC32 in CME, making the protein well worth further study.

      • Besides its role in AP2 assembly, CCDC32 may potentially have another function on the membrane. However, there is no direct evidence showing that CCDC32 associates with the plasma membrane.

      Response: We disagree, our data clearly shows that CCDC32 is recruited to CCPs (Fig. 1B) and that CCPs that fail to recruit CCDC32 are short-lived and likely abortive (Fig. 1C). Wan et al. did not observe any colocalization of C-terminally tagged CCDC32 to CCPs, whereas we detect recruitment of our N-terminally tagged construct, which we also show is functional (Fig. 6F). Further, we have demonstrated the importance of the C-terminal region of CCDC32 in membrane association (see new Fig. S7). Thus, we speculate that a C-terminally tagged CCDC32 might not be fully functional. Indeed, SIM images of the C-terminally-tagged CCDC32 in Wan et al., show large (~100 nm) structures in the cytosol, which may reflect aggregation.

      CCDC32 binds to multiple regions on AP2, including the core domain. It is important to distinguish the functional roles of these different binding sites.

      Response: We have localized the AP2-ear binding region to residues 78-99 and shown these to be critical for the functions we have identified. As described above we now include data that are complementary to those of Wan et al. However, our data also clearly points to additional binding modalities. We agree that it will be important and map these additional interactions and identify their functional roles, but this is beyond the scope of this paper.

      AP2 expression levels should be examined in CCDC32 depleted cells. If AP2 is gone, it is not surprising that clathrin-coated pits are defective.

      Response: Agreed and we have confirmed this by western blotting (Figure S3A-B) and detect no reduction in levels of any of the AP2 subunits in CCDC32 siRNA knockdown cells. As stated above this could be due to residual CCDC32 present in the siRNA KD vs the CRISPR-mediated gene KO.

      If the authors aim to establish a secondary function for CCDC32, they need to thoroughly discuss the known chaperone function of CCDC32 and consider whether and how CCDC32 regulates a downstream step in CME.

      Response: Agreed. We have described the Wan et al paper, which came out while our manuscript was in review, in our Introduction. As described above, there are areas of agreement and of discrepancies, which are thoroughly documented and discussed throughout the revised manuscript.

      The quality of Figure 1A is very low, making it difficult to assess the localization and quantify the data.

      Response: The low signal:noise in Fig. 1A the reviewer is concerned about is due to a diffuse distribution of CCDC32 on the inner surface of the plasma membrane. We now, more explicitly describe this binding, which we believe reflects a specific interaction mediated by the C-terminus of CCDC32; thus the degree of diffuse membrane binding we observe follows: eGFP-CCDC32(FL)> eGFP-CCDC32(∆78-98)>eGFP-CCDC32(1-54)~eGFP/background (see new Fig. S7). Importantly, the colocalization of CCDC32 at CCPs is confirmed by the dynamic imaging of CCPs (Fig 1B).

      In Figure 6, why aren't AP2 mu and sigma subunits shown?

      Response: Agreed. Not being aware of CCDC32's possible dual role as a chaperone, we had assumed that the AP2 complex was intact. We have now added this data in Figure 6 B,C and Fig. S3C, as discussed above.

      Page 5, top, this sentence is confusing: "their surface area (~17 x 10 nm2) remains significantly less than that required for the average 100 nm diameter CCV (~3.2 x 103 nm2)."

      Response: Thank you for the criticism. We have clarified the sentence and corrected a typo, which would definitely be confusing. The section now reads, "While the flat CCSs we detected in CCDC32 knockdown cells were significantly larger than in control cells (Fig. 4D, mean diameter of 147 nm vs. 127 nm, respectively), they are much smaller than typical long-lived flat clathrin lattices (d{greater than or equal to}300 nm)(Grove et al., 2014). Indeed, the surface area of the flat CCSs that accumulate in CCDC32 KD cells (mean ~1.69 x 104 nm2) remains significantly less than the surface area of an average 100 nm diameter CCV (~3.14 x 104 nm2). Thus, we refer to these structures as 'flat clathrin assemblies' because they are neither curved 'pits' nor large 'lattices'. Rather, the flat clathrin assemblies represent early, likely defective, intermediates in CCP formation."

      Significance

      Please see above.(from above: Overall, while this work presents some interesting ideas, it remains unclear whether CCDC32 regulates AP2 beyond the assembly step)

      Response: Our responses above argue that we have indeed established that CCDC32 regulates AP2 beyond the assembly step. We have also identified several discrepancies between our findings and those reported by Wan et al., most notably binding between CCDC32 and mature AP2 complexes and the AP2-dependent recruitment of CCDC32 to CCPs. It is possible that these discrepancies may be due to the position of the GFP tag (ours is N-terminal, theirs is C-terminal; we show that the N-terminal tagged CCDC32 rescues the knockdown phenotype, while Wan et al., do not provide evidence for functionality of the C-terminal construct).

      __Reviewer #3 __

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required):

      In this manuscript, Yang et al. characterize the endocytic accessory protein CCDC32, which has implications in cardio-facio-neuro-developmental syndrome (CFNDS). The authors clearly demonstrate that the protein CCDC32 has a role in the early stages of endocytosis, mainly through the interaction with the major endocytic adaptor protein AP2, and they identify regions taking part in this recognition. Through live cell fluorescence imaging and electron microscopy of endocytic pits, the authors characterize the lifetimes of endocytic sites, the formation rate of endocytic sites and pits and the invagination depth, in addition to transferrin receptor (TfnR) uptake experiments. Binding between CCDC32 and CCDC32 mutants to the AP2 alpha appendage domain is assessed by pull down experiments. Together, these experiments allow deriving a phenotype of CCDC32 knock-down and CCDC32 mutants within endocytosis, which is a very robust system, in which defects are not so easily detected. A mutation of CCDC32, known to play a role in CFNDS, is also addressed in this study and shown to have endocytic defects.

      Response: We thank the reviewer for their positive remarks regarding the quality of our data and the strength of our conclusions.

      In summary, the authors present a strong combination of techniques, assessing the impact of CCDC32 in clathrin mediated endocytosis and its binding to AP2, whereby the following major and minor points remain to be addressed:

      • The authors show that CCDC32 depletion leads to the formation of brighter and static clathrin coated structures (Figure 2), but that these were only prevalent to 7.8% and masked the 'normal' dynamic CCPs. At the same time, the authors show that the absence of CCDC32 induces pits with shorter life times (Figure 1 and Figure 2), the 'majority' of the pits. Clarification is needed as to how the authors arrive at these conclusions and these numbers. The authors should also provide (and visualize) the corresponding statistics. The same statement is made again later on in the manuscript, where the authors explain their electron microscopy data. Was the number derived from there?

      These points are critical to understanding CCDC32's role in endocytosis and is key to understanding the model presented in Figure 8. The numbers of how many pits accumulate in flat lattices versus normal endocytosis progression and the actual time scales could be included in this model and would make the figure much stronger.

      Response: Thank you for these comments. We understand the paradox between the visual impression and the reality of our dynamic measurements. We have been visually misled by this in previous work (Chen et al., 2020), which emphasizes the importance of unbiased image analysis afforded to us through the well-documented cmeAnalysis pipeline, developed by us (Aguet et al., 2013) and now used by many others (e.g. (He et al., 2020)).

      The % of static structures was not derived from electron microscopy data, but quantified using cmeAnalysis, which automatedly provides the lifetime distribution of CCPs. We have now clarified this in the manuscript and added a histogram (Fig. S4) quantifying the fraction of CCPs in lifetime cohorts 150s (static).

      • In relation to the above point, the statistics of Figure 2E-G and the analysis leading there should also be explained in more detail: For example, what are the individual points in the plot (also in Figures 6G and 7G)? The authors should also use a few phrases to explain software they use, for example DASC, in the main text.

      Response: Each point in these bar graphs represents a movie, where n{greater than or equal to}12. These details have been added to the respective figure legend. We have also added a brief description of DASC analysis in the text.

      • There are several questions related to the knock-down experiments that need to be addressed:

      Firstly, knock-down of CCDC32 does not seem to be very strong (Figure S2B). Can the level of knock-down be quantified?

      Response: We have now quantified the KD efficiency. It is ~60%. This turns out to be fortuitous (see responses to reviewer 2), as a recent publication, which came out after we completed our study, has shown by CRISPR-mediated knockout, that CCD32 also plays an essential chaperone function required for AP2 assembly. We do not see any reduction in AP2 levels or its complex formation under our conditions (see new Supplemental Figure S3), which suggests that the effects of CCDC32 on CCP dynamics are more sensitive to CCDC32 concentration than its roles as a chaperone. Our phenotypes would have been masked by more efficient depletion of CCDC32.

      In page 6 it is indicated that the eGFP-CCDC32(1-54) and eGFP-CCDC32(∆78-98) constructs are siRNA-resistant. However in Fig S2B, these proteins do not show any signal in the western blot, so it is not clear if they are expressed or simply not detected by the antibody. The presence of these proteins after silencing endogenous CCDC32 needs to be confirmed to support Figures 6 and Figures 7, which critically rely on the presence of the CCDC32 mutants.

      Response: Unfortunately, the C-terminally truncated CCDC32 proteins are not detected because they lack the antibody epitope, indeed even the D78-98 deletion is poorly detected (compare the GFP blot in new S1A with the anti-CCDC32 blot in S1B). However, these constructs contain the same siRNA-resistance mutation as the full length protein. That they are expressed and siRNA resistant can be seen in Fig. S2A (now Fig. S1A) blotting for GFP.

      In Figures 6 and 7, siRNA knock-down of CCDC32 is only indicated for sub-figures F to G. Is this really the case? If not, the authors should clarify. The siRNA knock-down in Figure 1 is also only mentioned in the text, not in the figure legend. The authors should pay attention to make their figure legends easy to understand and unambiguous.

      Response: No, it is not the case. Thank you for pointing out the uncertainty. We have added these details to the Figure legends and checked all Figure legends to ensure that they clearly describe the data shown.

      • It is not exactly clear how the curves in Figure 3C (lower panel) on the invagination depth were obtained. Can the authors clarify this a bit more? For example, what are kT and kE in Figure 3A? What is I0? And how did the authors derive the logarithmic function used to quantify the invagination depth? In the main text, the authors say that the traces were 'logarithmically transformed'. This is not a technical term. The authors should refer to the actual equation used in the figure.

      Response: This analysis was developed by the Kirchhausen lab (Saffarian and Kirchhausen, 2008). We have added these details and reference them in the Figure legend and in the text. We also now use the more accurate descriptor 'log-transformed'.

      • In the discussion, the claim 'The resulting dysregulation of AP2 inhibits CME, which further results in the development of CFNDS.' is maybe a bit too strong of a statement. Firstly, because the authors show themselves that CME is perturbed, but by no means inhibited. Secondly, the molecular link to CFNDS remains unclear. Even though CCDC32 mutants seem to be responsible for CFNDS and one of the mutant has been shown in this study to have a defect in endocytosis and AP2 binding, a direct link between CCDC32's function in endocytosis and CFNDS remains elusive. The authors should thus provide a more balanced discussion on this topic.

      Response: We have modified and softened our conclusions, which now read that the phenotypes we see likely "contribute to" rather than "cause" the disease.

      • In Figure S1, the authors annotate the presence of a coiled-coil domain, which they also use later on in the manuscript to generate mutations. Could the authors specify (and cite) where and how this coiled-coil domain has been identified? Is this predicted helix indeed a coiled-coil domain, or just a helix, as indicated by the authors in the discussion?

      Response: See response to Reviewer 1, point 4. We have changed this wording to alpha-helix. The 'coiled-coil' reference is historical and unlikely a true reflection of CCDC32 structure. AlphaFold 3.0 predictions were unable to identify with certainly any coiled-coil structures, even if we modelled potential dimers or trimers; and we find no evidence of dimerization of CCDC32 in vivo. We have clarified this in the text.

      Minor comments

      • In general, a more detailed explanation of the microscopy techniques used and the information they report would be beneficial to provide access to the article also to non-expert readers in the field. This concerns particularly the analysis methods used, for example: How were the cohort-averaged fluorescence intensity and lifetime traces obtained? How do the tools cmeAnalysis and DASC work? A brief explanation would be helpful.

      Response: We have expanded Methods to add these details, and also described them in the main text.

      • The axis label of Figure 2B is not quite clear. What does 'TfnR uptake % of surface bound' mean? Maybe the authors could explain this in more detail in the figure legend? Is the drop in uptake efficiency also accessible by visual inspection of the images? It would be interesting to see that.

      Response: This is a standard measure of CME efficiency. 'TfnR uptake % of surface bound' = Internalized TfnR/Surface bound TfnR. Again, images may be misleading as defects in CME lead to increased levels of TfnR on the cell surface, which in turn would result in more Tfn uptake even if the rate of CME is decreased.

      • Figure 4: How is the occupancy of CCPs in the plasma membrane measured? What are the criteria used to divide CCSs into Flat, Dome or Sphere categories?

      Response: We have expanded Methods to add these details. Based on the degree of invagination, the shapes of CCSs were classified as either: flat CCSs with no obvious invagination; dome-shaped CCSs that had a hemispherical or less invaginated shape with visible edges of the clathrin lattice; and spherical CCSs that had a round shape with the invisible edges of clathrin lattice in 2D projection images. In most cases, the shapes were obvious in 2D PREM images. In uncertain cases, the degree of CCS invagination was determined using images tilted at {plus minus}10-20 degrees. The area of CCSs were measured using ImageJ and used for the calculation of the CCS occupancy on the plasma membrane.

      • Figure 5B: Can the authors explain, where exactly the GFP was engineered into AP2 alpha? This construct does not seem to be explained in the methods section.

      Response: We have added this information. The construct, which corresponds to an insertion of GFP into the flexible hinge region of AP2, at aa649, was first described by (Mino et al., 2020) and shown to be fully functional. This information has been added to the Methods section.

      • Figure S1B: The authors should indicate the colour code used for the structural model.

      Response: We have expanded our structural modeling using AlphaFold 3.0 in light of the recent publication suggesting the CCDC32 interacts with the µ2 subunit and does not bind full length AP2. These results are described in the text. The color coding now reflects certainty values given by AlphaFold 3.0 (Fig. S6B, D).

      • The list of primers referred to in the materials and methods section does not exist. There is a Table S1, but this contains different data. The actual Table S1 is not referenced in the main text. This should be done.

      Response: We apologize for this error. We have now added this information in Table S2.

      __ Significance (Required):__

      In this study, the authors analyse a so-far poorly understood endocytic accessory protein, CCDC32, and its implication for endocytosis. The experimental tool set used, allowing to quantify CCP dynamics and invagination is clearly a strength of the article that allows assessing the impact of an accessory protein towards the endocytic uptake mechanism, which is normally very robust towards mutations. Only through this detailed analysis of endocytosis progression could the authors detect clear differences in the presence and absence of CCDC32 and its mutants. If the above points are successfully addressed, the study will provide very interesting and highly relevant work allowing a better understanding of the early phases in CME with implication for disease.

      The study is thus of potential interest to an audience interested in CME, in disease and its molecular reasons, as well as for readers interested in intrinsically disordered proteins to a certain extent, claiming thus a relatively broad audience. The presented results may initiate further studies of the so-far poorly understood and less well known accessory protein CCDC32.

      Response: We thank the reviewer for their positive comments on the significance of our findings and the importance of our detailed phenotypic analysis made possible by quantitative live cell microscopy. We also believe that our new structural modeling of CCDC32 and our findings of complex and extensive interactions with AP2 make the reviewers point regarding intrinsically disordered proteins even more interesting and relevant to a broad audience. We trust that our revisions indeed address the reviewer's concerns.

      The field of expertise of the reviewer is structural biology, biochemistry and clathrin mediated endocytosis. Expertise in cell biology is rather superficial.


      References:

      Aguet, F., Costin N. Antonescu, M. Mettlen, Sandra L. Schmid, and G. Danuser. 2013. Advances in Analysis of Low Signal-to-Noise Images Link Dynamin and AP2 to the Functions of an Endocytic Checkpoint. Developmental Cell. 26:279-291.

      Chen, Z., R.E. Mino, M. Mettlen, P. Michaely, M. Bhave, D.K. Reed, and S.L. Schmid. 2020. Wbox2: A clathrin terminal domain-derived peptide inhibitor of clathrin-mediated endocytosis. Journal of Cell Biology. 219.

      Grove, J., D.J. Metcalf, A.E. Knight, S.T. Wavre-Shapton, T. Sun, E.D. Protonotarios, L.D. Griffin, J. Lippincott-Schwartz, and M. Marsh. 2014. Flat clathrin lattices: stable features of the plasma membrane. Mol Biol Cell. 25:3581-3594.

      He, K., E. Song, S. Upadhyayula, S. Dang, R. Gaudin, W. Skillern, K. Bu, B.R. Capraro, I. Rapoport, I. Kusters, M. Ma, and T. Kirchhausen. 2020. Dynamics of Auxilin 1 and GAK in clathrin-mediated traffic. J Cell Biol. 219.

      Mino, R.E., Z. Chen, M. Mettlen, and S.L. Schmid. 2020. An internally eGFP-tagged α-adaptin is a fully functional and improved fiduciary marker for clathrin-coated pit dynamics. Traffic. 21:603-616.

      Saffarian, S., and T. Kirchhausen. 2008. Differential evanescence nanometry: live-cell fluorescence measurements with 10-nm axial resolution on the plasma membrane. Biophys J. 94:2333-2342.

    2. Note: This preprint has been reviewed by subject experts for Review Commons. Content has not been altered except for formatting.

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      Referee #3

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      In this manuscript, Yang et al. characterize the endocytic accessory protein CCDC32, which has implications in cardio-facio-neuro-developmental syndrome (CFNDS). The authors clearly demonstrate that the protein CCDC32 has a role in the early stages of endocytosis, mainly through the interaction with the major endocytic adaptor protein AP2, and they identify regions taking part in this recognition. Through live cell fluorescence imaging and electron microscopy of endocytic pits, the authors characterize the lifetimes of endocytic sites, the formation rate of endocytic sites and pits and the invagination depth, in addition to transferrin receptor (TfnR) uptake experiments. Binding between CCDC32 and CCDC32 mutants to the AP2 alpha appendage domain is assessed by pull down experiments. Together, these experiments allow deriving a phenotype of CCDC32 knock-down and CCDC32 mutants within endocytosis, which is a very robust system, in which defects are not so easily detected. A mutation of CCDC32, known to play a role in CFNDS, is also addressed in this study and shown to have endocytic defects.

      In summary, the authors present a strong combination of techniques, assessing the impact of CCDC32 in clathrin mediated endocytosis and its binding to AP2, whereby the following major and minor points remain to be addressed:

      • The authors show that CCDC32 depletion leads to the formation of brighter and static clathrin coated structures (Figure 2), but that these were only prevalent to 7.8% and masked the 'normal' dynamic CCPs. At the same time, the authors show that the absence of CCDC32 induces pits with shorter life times (Figure 1 and Figure 2), the 'majority' of the pits.

      Clarification is needed as to how the authors arrive at these conclusions and these numbers. The authors should also provide (and visualize) the corresponding statistics. The same statement is made again later on in the manuscript, where the authors explain their electron microscopy data. Was the number derived from there?

      These points are critical to understanding CCDC32's role in endocytosis and is key to understanding the model presented in Figure 8. The numbers of how many pits accumulate in flat lattices versus normal endocytosis progression and the actual time scales could be included in this model and would make the figure much stronger. - In relation to the above point, the statistics of Figure 2E-G and the analysis leading there should also be explained in more detail: For example, what are the individual points in the plot (also in Figures 6G and 7G)? The authors should also use a few phrases to explain software they use, for example DASC, in the main text. - There are several questions related to the knock-down experiments that need to be addressed:

      Firstly, knock-down of CCDC32 does not seem to be very strong (Figure S2B). Can the level of knock-down be quantified?

      In page 6 it is indicated that the eGFP-CCDC32(1-54) and eGFP-CCDC32(∆78-98) constructs are siRNA-resistant. However in Fig S2B, these proteins do not show any signal in the western blot, so it is not clear if they are expressed or simply not detected by the antibody. The presence of these proteins after silencing endogenous CCDC32 needs to be confirmed to support Figures 6 and Figures 7, which critically rely on the presence of the CCDC32 mutants.

      In Figures 6 and 7, siRNA knock-down of CCDC32 is only indicated for sub-figures F to G. Is this really the case? If not, the authors should clarify. The siRNA knock-down in Figure 1 is also only mentioned in the text, not in the figure legend. The authors should pay attention to make their figure legends easy to understand and unambiguous. - It is not exactly clear how the curves in Figure 3C (lower panel) on the invagination depth were obtained. Can the authors clarify this a bit more? For example, what are kT and kE in Figure 3A? What is I0? And how did the authors derive the logarithmic function used to quantify the invagination depth? In the main text, the authors say that the traces were 'logarithmically transformed'. This is not a technical term. The authors should refer to the actual equation used in the figure. - In the discussion, the claim 'The resulting dysregulation of AP2 inhibits CME, which further results in the development of CFNDS.' is maybe a bit too strong of a statement. Firstly, because the authors show themselves that CME is perturbed, but by no means inhibited. Secondly, the molecular link to CFNDS remains unclear. Even though CCDC32 mutants seem to be responsible for CFNDS and one of the mutant has been shown in this study to have a defect in endocytosis and AP2 binding, a direct link between CCDC32's function in endocytosis and CFNDS remains elusive. The authors should thus provide a more balanced discussion on this topic. - In Figure S1, the authors annotate the presence of a coiled-coil domain, which they also use later on in the manuscript to generate mutations. Could the authors specify (and cite) where and how this coiled-coil domain has been identified? Is this predicted helix indeed a coiled-coil domain, or just a helix, as indicated by the authors in the discussion?

      Minor comments:

      • In general, a more detailed explanation of the microscopy techniques used and the information they report would be beneficial to provide access to the article also to non-expert readers in the field. This concerns particularly the analysis methods used, for example: How were the cohort-averaged fluorescence intensity and lifetime traces obtained? How do the tools cmeAnalysis and DASC work? A brief explanation would be helpful.
      • The axis label of Figure 2B is not quite clear. What does 'TfnR uptake % of surface bound' mean? Maybe the authors could explain this in more detail in the figure legend? Is the drop in uptake efficiency also accessible by visual inspection of the images? It would be interesting to see that.
      • Figure 4: How is the occupancy of CCPs in the plasma membrane measured? What are the criteria used to divide CCSs into Flat, Dome or Sphere categories?
      • Figure 5B: Can the authors explain, where exactly the GFP was engineered into AP2 alpha? This construct does not seem to be explained in the methods section.
      • Figure S1B: The authors should indicate the colour code used for the structural model.
      • The list of primers referred to in the materials and methods section does not exist. There is a Table S1, but this contains different data. The actual Table S1 is not referenced in the main text. This should be done.

      Significance

      In this study, the authors analyse a so-far poorly understood endocytic accessory protein, CCDC32, and its implication for endocytosis. The experimental tool set used, allowing to quantify CCP dynamics and invagination is clearly a strength of the article that allows assessing the impact of an accessory protein towards the endocytic uptake mechanism, which is normally very robust towards mutations. Only through this detailed analysis of endocytosis progression could the authors detect clear differences in the presence and absence of CCDC32 and its mutants. If the above points are successfully addressed, the study will provide very interesting and highly relevant work allowing a better understanding of the early phases in CME with implication for disease.

      The study is thus of potential interest to an audience interested in CME, in disease and its molecular reasons, as well as for readers interested in intrinsically disordered proteins to a certain extent, claiming thus a relatively broad audience. The presented results may initiate further studies of the so-far poorly understood and less well known accessory protein CCDC32.

      The field of expertise of the reviewer is structural biology, biochemistry and clathrin mediated endocytosis. Expertise in cell biology is rather superficial.

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      Referee #2

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      In this manuscript, the authors demonstrate that CCDC32 regulates clathrin-mediated endocytosis (CME). Some of the findings are consistent with a recent report by Wan et al. (2024 PNAS), such as the observation that CCDC32 depletion reduces transferrin uptake and diminishes the formation of clathrin-coated pits. The primary function of CCDC32 is to regulate AP2 assembly, and its depletion leads to AP2 degradation. However, this study did not examine AP2 expression levels. CCDC32 may bind to the appendage domain of AP2 alpha, but it also binds to the core domain of AP2 alpha. Overall, while this work presents some interesting ideas, it remains unclear whether CCDC32 regulates AP2 beyond the assembly step.

      1. Besides its role in AP2 assembly, CCDC32 may potentially have another function on the membrane. However, there is no direct evidence showing that CCDC32 associates with the plasma membrane.
      2. CCDC32 binds to multiple regions on AP2, including the core domain. It is important to distinguish the functional roles of these different binding sites.
      3. AP2 expression levels should be examined in CCDC32 depleted cells. If AP2 is gone, it is not surprising that clathrin-coated pits are defective.
      4. If the authors aim to establish a secondary function for CCDC32, they need to thoroughly discuss the known chaperone function of CCDC32 and consider whether and how CCDC32 regulates a downstream step in CME.
      5. The quality of Figure 1A is very low, making it difficult to assess the localization and quantify the data.
      6. In Figure 6, why aren't AP2 mu and sigma subunits shown?Page 5, top, this sentence is confusing: "their surface area (~17 x 103 nm2) remains significantly less than that required for the average 100 nm diameter CCV (~3.2 x 103 nm2)."

      Significance

      Overall, while this work presents some interesting ideas, it remains unclear whether CCDC32 regulates AP2 beyond the assembly step.

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      Referee #1

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      Summary:

      The manuscript by Yang et al. describes a new CME accessory protein. CCDC32 has been previously suggested to interact with AP2 and in the present work the authors confirm this interaction and show that it is a bona fide CME regulator. I agreement with its interaction with AP2, CCDC32 recruitment to CCPs mirrors the accumulation of clathrin. Knockdown of CCDC32 reduces the amount of productive CCPs, suggestive of a stabilisation role in early clathrin assemblies. Immunoprecipitation experiments mapped the interaction of CCDC42 to the α-appendage of the AP2 complex α-subunit. Finally, the authors show that the CCDC32 nonsense mutations found in patients with cardio-facial-neuro-developmental syndrome disrupt the interaction of this protein to the AP2 complex. The manuscript is well written and the conclusions regarding the role of CCDC32 in CME are supported by good quality data. As detailed below, a few improvements/clarifications are needed to reinforce some of the conclusions, especially the ones regarding CFNDS.

      Major comments:

      1. Why did the protein could just be visualized at CCPs after knockdown of the endogenous protein? This is highly unusual, especially on stable cell lines. Could this be that the tag is interfering with the expressed protein function rendering it incapable of outcompeting the endogenous? Does this points to a regulated recruitment?
      2. The disease mutation used in the paper does not correspond to the truncation found in patients. The authors use an 1-54 truncation, but the patients described in Harel et al. have frame shifts at the positions 19 (Thr19Tyrfs12) and 64 (Glu64Glyfs12), while the patient described in Abdalla et al. have the deletion of two introns, leading to a frameshift around amino acid 90. Moreover, to be precisely test the function of these disease mutations, one would need to add the extra amino acids generated by the frame shift. For example, as denoted in the mutation description in Harel et al., the frameshift at position 19 changes the Threonine 19 to a Tyrosine and ads a run of 12 extra amino acids (Thr19Tyrfs*12).
      3. The frameshift caused by the CFNDS mutations (especially the one studied) will likely lead to nonsense mediated RNA decay (NMD). The frameshift is well within the rules where NMD generally kicks in. Therefore, I am unsure about the functional insights of expressing a disease-related protein which is likely not present in patients.
      4. Coiled coils generally form stable dimers. The typically hydrophobic core of these structures is not suitable for transient interactions. This complicates the interpretation of the results regarding the role of this region as the place where the interaction to AP2 occurs. If the coiled coil holds a stable CCDC32 dimer, disrupting this dimer could reduce the affinity to AP2 (by reduced avidity) to the actual binding site. A construct with an orthogonal dimeriser or a pulldown of the delta78-98 protein with of the GST AP2a-AD could be a good way to sort this issue.

      Minor comments:

      1. The authors interchangeably use the term "flat CCPs" and "flat clathrin lattices". While these are indeed related, flat clathrin lattices have been also used to refer to "clathrin plaques". To avoid confusion, I suggest sticking to the term "flat CCPs" to refer to the CCPs which are in their early stages of maturation.

      Significance

      General assessment:

      CME drives the internalisation of hundreds of receptors and surface proteins in practically all tissues, making it an essential process for various physiological processes. This versatility comes at the cost of a large number of molecular players and regulators. To understand this complexity, unravelling all the components of this process is vital. The manuscript by Yang et al. gives an important contribution to this effort as it describes a new CME regulator, CCDC32, which acts directly at the main CME adaptor AP2. The link to disease is interesting, but the authors need to refine their experiments. The requirement for endogenous knockdown for recruitment of the tagged CCDC32 is unusual and requires further exploration.

      Advance:

      The increased frequency of abortive events presented by CCDC32 knockdown cells is very interesting, as it hints to an active mechanism that regulates the stabilisation and growth of clathrin coated pits. The exact way clathrin coated pits are stabilised is still an open question in the field.

      Audience:

      This is a basic research manuscript. However, given the essential role of CME in physiology and the growing number of CME players involved in disease, this manuscript can reach broader audiences.

      Field of expertise of the reviewer:

      Clathrin mediated endocytosis, cell biology, microscopy, biochemistry.

    1. Briefing Doc: La Voix Intérieure - Endophase Thèmes principaux:

      Définition et exploration de l'endophase, la voix intérieure. Fonctions et caractéristiques de l'endophase. L'endophase comme phénomène multidisciplinaire. L'endophase et la construction de l'identité. Idées et faits importants:

      1. Définition de l'endophase :

      L'endophase est un néologisme proposé par le médecin Georges Saint-Paul pour désigner le langage intérieur, "cette façon qu'on a d'avoir du langage dans la tête". "Le terme endophase était assez approprié, malheureusement il a été un petit peu oublié." - Hélène Loevenbruck

      Ce terme englobe les différentes formes de langage intérieur, qu'il s'agisse de monologues, de dialogues, de phrases complètes ou de fragments de mots.

      2. Fonctions de l'endophase :

      • Fonction communicative: L'endophase peut simuler des conversations avec autrui, permettant de planifier des échanges futurs ou d'analyser des interactions passées.
      • "J'imaginais votre douce voix dans mes oreilles et j'imaginais ce que j'allais vous répondre." - Hélène Loevenbruck

      • Fonction cognitive: L'endophase aide à structurer la pensée, à creuser des idées, à catégoriser et à améliorer la compréhension.

      "Le langage nous donne des mots, c'est un outil à la pensée, à la cognition." - Hélène Loevenbruck

      • Fonction métacognitive: L'endophase permet la conscience de soi, la régulation émotionnelle, la motivation et la construction identitaire.

      "Cette petite voix qui nous accompagne, qui nous donne une identité." - Hélène Loevenbruck

      3. Caractéristiques de l'endophase :

      • Diversité des formes: L'endophase peut être condensée (fragments de mots) ou déployée (phrases complètes).
      • Dialogue et monologue: L'endophase peut prendre la forme de dialogues internes, simulant des conversations avec autrui, ou de monologues adressés à soi-même.
      • Influencée par le contexte: Le langage utilisé dans l'endophase peut varier en fonction de la situation, des souvenirs évoqués, des personnes imaginées.
      • Présence de tous les temps: Le passé, le présent et le futur sont utilisés dans l'endophase pour se remémorer des souvenirs, vivre le moment présent et planifier l'avenir.

      4. L'endophase comme phénomène multidisciplinaire :

      La compréhension de l'endophase nécessite l'apport de plusieurs disciplines :

      • Linguistique : Analyse des structures et des fonctions du langage intérieur.
      • Psychologie : Exploration des processus mentaux et des fonctions cognitives liées à l'endophase.
      • Philosophie : Réflexion sur la nature de la conscience, de la pensée et du langage.
      • Neurosciences : Étude des mécanismes cérébraux impliqués dans la production et la perception du langage intérieur.

      • L'endophase et la construction de l'identité :

      L'endophase joue un rôle crucial dans la construction de l'identité.

      En se racontant des histoires, en se remémorant des souvenirs, en planifiant l'avenir, l'individu se construit une image de soi unique et cohérente.

      "On se construit petit à petit un personnage, une identité unique." - Hélène Loevenbruck

      6. L'endophase, une particularité humaine ?

      • L'endophase est une caractéristique propre à l'espèce humaine, liée à la capacité de langage et à la conscience de soi étendue dans le temps.
      • Certaines personnes peuvent avoir une endophase moins présente, voire inexistante, privilégiant d'autres formes de pensée (visuelle, abstraite).
      • "Einstein [...] quand il pensait, il n'avait pas besoin de mots." - Hélène Loevenbruck

      Conclusion :

      L'endophase est un phénomène complexe et fascinant qui révèle la richesse de la vie intérieure humaine. Sa compréhension nécessite une approche multidisciplinaire et une exploration continue des mécanismes qui la sous-tendent.

    1. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      In this paper, the authors use a three-phase economic game to examine the tendency to engage in prosocial versus competitive exchanges with three anonymous partners. In particular, they consider individual differences in the tendency to infer about others' tendencies based on one's preferences and to update one's preferences based on observations of others' behavior. The study includes a sample of individuals diagnosed with borderline personality disorder and a matched sample of psychiatrically healthy control participants.

      On the whole, the experimental design is well-suited to the questions and the computational model analyses are thorough, including modern model-fitting procedures. I particularly appreciated the clear exposition regarding model parameterization and the descriptive Table 2 for qualitative model comparison. My broad question about the experiment (in terms of its clinical and cognitive process relevance): Does the task encourage competition or give participants a reason to take advantage of others? I don't think it does, so it would be useful to clarify the normative account for prosociality in the introduction (e.g., some of Robin Dunbar's work).

      The finding that individuals with BPD do not engage in self-other generalization on this task of social intentions is novel and potentially clinically relevant. The authors find that BPD participants' tendency to be prosocial when splitting points with a partner does not transfer into their expectations of how a partner will treat them in a task where they are the passive recipient of points chosen by the partner. In the discussion, the authors reasonably focus on model differences between groups (Bayesian model comparison), yet I thought this finding -- BPD participants not assuming prosocial tendencies in phase 2 while CON participant did -- merited greater attention. Although the BPD group was close to 0 on the \beta prior in Phase 2, their difference from CON is still in the direction of being more mistrustful (or at least not assuming prosociality). This may line up with broader clinical literature on mistrustfulness and attributions of malevolence in the BPD literature (e.g., a 1992 paper by Nigg et al. in Journal of Abnormal Psychology). My broad point is to consider further the Phase 2 findings in terms of the clinical interpretation of the shift in \beta relative to controls.

      On the conceptual level, I had two additional concerns. First, the authors note that they have "proposed a theory with testable predictions" (p. 4 but also elsewhere) but they do not state any clear predictions in the introduction, nor do they consider what sort of patterns will be observed in the BPD group in view of extant clinical and computational literature. Rather, the paper seems to be somewhat exploratory, largely looking at group differences (BPD vs. CON) on all of the shared computational parameters and additional indices such as belief updating and reaction times. Given this, I would suggest that the authors make stronger connections between extant research on intention representation in BPD and their framework (model and paradigm). In particular, the authors do not address related findings from Ereira (2020) and Story (2024) finding that in a false belief task that BPD participants *overgeneralize* from self to other. A critical comparison of this work to the present study, including an examination of the two tasks differ in the processes they measure, is important.

      In addition, perhaps it is fairer to note more explicitly the exploratory nature of this work. Although the analyses are thorough, many of them are not argued for a priori (e.g., rate of belief updating in Figure 2C) and the reader amasses many individual findings that need to by synthesized.

      Second, in the discussion, the authors are too quick to generalize to broad clinical phenomena in BPD that are not directly connected to the task at hand. For example, on p. 22: "Those with a diagnosis of BPD also show reduced permeability in generalising from other to self. While prior research has predominantly focused on how those with BPD use information to form impressions, it has not typically examined whether these impressions affect the self." Here, it's not self-representation per se (typically, identity or one's view of oneself), but instead cooperation and prosocial tendencies in an economic context. It is important to clarify what clinical phenomena may be closely related to the task and which are more distal and perhaps should not be approached here.

      On a more technical level, I had two primary concerns. First, although the authors consider alternative models within a hierarchical Bayesian framework, some challenges arise when one analyzes parameter estimates fit separately to two groups, particularly when the best-fitting model is not shared. In particular, although the authors conduct a model confusion analysis, they do not as far I could tell (and apologies if I missed it) demonstrate that the dynamics of one model are nested within the other. Given that M4 has free parameters governing the expectations on the absolute and relative reward preferences in Phase 2, is it necessarily the case that the shared parameters between M1 and M4 can be interpreted on the same scale? Relatedly, group-specific model fitting has virtues when believes there to be two distinct populations, but there is also a risk of overfitting potentially irrelevant sample characteristics when parameters are fit group by group.

      To resolve these issues, I saw one straightforward solution (though in modeling, my experience is that what seems straightforward on first glance may not be so upon further investigation). M1 assumes that participants' own preferences (posterior central tendency) in Phase 1 directly transfer to priors in Phase 2, but presumably the degree of transfer could vary somewhat without meriting an entirely new model (i.e., the authors currently place this question in terms of model selection, not within-model parameter variation). I would suggest that the authors consider a model parameterization fit to the full dataset (both groups) that contains free parameters capturing the *deviations* in the priors relative to the preceding phase's posterior. That is, the free parameters $\bar{\alpha}_{par}^m$ and $\bar{\beta}_{par}^m$ govern the central tendency of the Phase 2 prior parameter distributions directly, but could be reparametrized as deviations from Phase 1 $\theta^m_{ppt}$ parameters in an additive form. This allows for a single model to be fit all participants that encompasses the dynamics of interest such that between-group parameter comparisons are not biased by the strong assumptions imposed by M1 (that phase 1 preferences and phase 2 observations directly transfer to priors). In the case of controls, we would expect these deviation parameters to be centred on 0 insofar as the current M1 fit them best, whereas for BPD participants should have significant deviations from earlier-phase posteriors (e.g., the shift in \beta toward prior neutrality in phase 2 compared to one's own prosociality in phase 1). I think it's still valid for the authors to argue for stronger model constraints for Bayesian model comparison, as they do now, but inferences regarding parameter estimates should ideally be based on a model that can encompass the full dynamics of the entire sample, with simpler dynamics (like posterior -> prior transfer) being captured by near-zero parameter estimates.

      My second concern pertains to the psychometric individual difference analyses. These were not clearly justified in the introduction, though I agree that they could offer potentially meaningful insight into which scales may be most related to model parameters of interest. So, perhaps these should be earmarked as exploratory and/or more clearly argued for. Crucially, however, these analyses appear to have been conducted on the full sample without considering the group structure. Indeed, many of the scales on which there are sizable group differences are also those that show correlations with psychometric scales. So, in essence, it is unclear whether most of these analyses are simply recapitulating the between-group tests reported earlier in the paper or offer additional insights. I think it's hard to have one's cake and eat it, too, in this regard and would suggest the authors review Preacher et al. 2005, Psychological Methods for additional detail. One solution might be to always include group as a binary covariate in the symptom dimension-parameter analyses, essentially partialing the correlations for group status. I remain skeptical regarding whether there is additional signal in these analyses, but such controls could convince the reader. Nevertheless, without such adjustments, I would caution against any transdiagnostic interpretations such as this one in the Highlights: "Higher reported childhood trauma, paranoia, and poorer trait mentalizing all diminish other-to-self information transfer irrespective of diagnosis." Since many of these analyses relate to scales on which the groups differ, the transdiagnostic relevance remains to be demonstrated.

    1. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      The manuscript of Kowalewski et al. titled "Machine learning of honey bee olfactory behavior identifies repellent odorants in free flying bees in the field" did machine learning to predict potential candidates for honeybee repellents, which may keep foraging bees from pesticides. This is a pilot research with strong significance in the research of olfactory behavior and in pest control. However, some major issues need to be addressed to enhance the manuscript's clarity, strength, and overall coherence.

      (1) Drosophila melanogaster is not considered as a true agricultural pest. The manuscript would be more compelling if using true pests, for example, Drosophila suzukii or others.<br /> (2) For repellency test, the result relies on dosage. An attractant may become a repellent at high concentration. Test a range of concentrations for each chemicals and compare responses between honeybees and pests.<br /> (3) Be more clear about bee behavior data and their scores (as in Page 4 Results "184 training chemicals and later for 203 chemicals" and Page 10 Methods). I suggest that authors add a supplemental table with each chemical and its behavioral score, feature and reference - which ones were used for training, and which ones for testing. Also add your own behavioral test data (second input) to this table.<br /> (4) The AUC in the first validation was 0.88 (Page 4), and in Page 5, "As expected, the computational validation results based on the AUC values, show an improvement." However, there were no other AUC values to show improvement.<br /> (5) Show plots of ROC AUC curves from Round 1 and Round 2.<br /> (6) In the Discussion, the authors mentioned olfactory receptors in honeybees. It would be useful to provide a general review of the current understanding of these receptors and their (potential) functions.<br /> (7) I suggest combining Fig. 1 and Fig. 3A as one pipeline for this work.<br /> (8) Figure 2C, some sample sizes are very small, such as 2-piperidone: 1 first-choice control vs 0 first-choice repellent? Increase sample size and do statistical analysis.<br /> (9) In general, to assist reviewers, include line numbers to the manuscript.

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This work is meant to help create a foundation for future studies of the Central Complex, which is a critical integrative center in the fly brain. The authors present a systematic description of cellular elements, cell type classifications, behavioral evaluations and genetic resources available to the Drosophila neuroscience community.

      Strengths:

      The work contributes new, useful and systematic technical information in compelling fashion to support future studies of the fly brain. It also continues to set a high and transparent standard by which large-scale resources can be defined and shared.

      Weaknesses:

      manuscript p. 1<br /> "The central complex (CX) of the adult Drosophila melanogaster brain consists of approximately 2,800 cells that have been divided into 257 cell types based on morphology and connectivity (Scheer et al., 2020; Hulse et al. 2021; Wolff et al., 2015)."<br /> The 257 accumulated cell types have informational names (e.g., PBG2‐9.s‐FBl2.b‐NO3A.b) in addition to their associations with specific Gal4 lines and specific EM Body IDs. All this is very useful. I have one suggestion to help a reader trying to get a "bird's eye view" of such a large amount of detailed and multi-layered information. Give each of the 257 CX cell types an arbitrary number: 1 to 257. In fact, Supplemental File 2 lists ~277 cell types each with a number in sequence, so perhaps in principle, it is there. This could expedite the search function when a reader is trying to cross-reference CX cell type information from the text, to the Figures and/or to the Supplemental Figures. Also, the use of (arbitrary) cell type numbers could expedite the explanation of which cell types are included in any compilation of information (e.g., which ones were tested for specific NT expression).

      manuscript p 2<br /> "Figure 2 and Figure 2-figure supplements 1-4 show the expression of 52 new split-GAL4 lines with strong GAL4 expression that is largely limited to the cell type of interest. .... We also generated lines of lesser quality for other cell types that in total bring overall coverage to more than three quarters of CX cell types."<br /> This section describes the generation and identification of specific split Gal4 lines, and the presentation is generally excellent. It represents an outstanding compendium of information. My reading of the text suggests ~200 cell types have Gal4 lines that are of immediate use (having high specificity or v close-to-high). Use of an arbitrary number system (mentioned above) could augment that description for the reasons stated. For example, which of the 257 cell types are represented by split Gal4 lines that constitute the ~1/3 representing "high-quality lines "? A second comment relates to this study 's functional analysis of the contributions of CX cell types to sleep physiology. The recent literature contains renewed interest in the specific expression patterns of Gal4 lines that can promote sleep-like behaviors. In particular Gal4 line expression outside the brain (in the VNC and outside the CNS) have been raised as important elements that need be included for interpretation interpretation of sleep regulation. This present study offers useful information about a large number of expression patterns, as well as a basis with which to seek additional information., including mention of VNC expression in many cases However, perhaps I missed it, but I could not find a short description of the over-all strategy used to describe the expression patterns and feel that could be helpful. Were all Gal4 lines studied for expression in the VNC? and in the peripheral NS? It is probably published elsewhere, but even a short reprise would still be useful.

      manuscript p 9<br /> Neurotransmitter expression in CX cell types<br /> "To determine what neurotransmitters are used by the CX cell types, we carried out fluorescent in situ hybridization using EASI-FISH (Eddison and Irkhe, 2022; Close et al., 2024) on brains that also expressed GFP driven from a cell-type-specific split GAL4 line. In this way, we could determine what neurotransmitters were expressed in over 100 different CX cell types based on ...."<br /> Reading this description, I was uncertain whether the >100 cell types mentioned were tested with all the NT markers by EASI-FISH? Also, assigning arbitrary numbers to the cell types (same suggestion as above) could help the reader more readily ascertain which were the ~100 cell types classified in this context.

      manuscript p 10<br /> "Our full results are summarized below, together with our analysis of neuropeptide expression in the same cell types."<br /> I recommend specifying which Figures and Tables contain the "full results" indicated.

      NP expression in CX cell types<br /> Similar to the comments regarding studies of NT expression: were all ~100 cell types tested with each of the 17 selected NPs? Arbitrary numerical identifies could be useful for the reader to determine which cell types/ lines were tested and which were not yet tested

      manuscript p. 11<br /> "The neuropeptide expression patterns we observed fell into two broad categories."<br /> This section presents information that is extensive and extremely useful. It supports consideration of peptidergic cell signaling at a circuits level and in a systematic fashion that will promote future progress in this field. I have two comments. First, regarding the categorization of two NP expression patterns, discernible by differences in cell number: this idea mirrors one present in prior literature. Recently the classification of the transcription factor DIMM summarizes this same two-way categorization (e.g., doi: 10.1371/journal.pone.0001896). That included the fact that a single NP can be utilized by cell of either category.

      Second, regarding this comment:<br /> "In contrast, neuropeptides like those shown in Figure 6 appear to be expressed in dozens to hundreds of cells and appear poised to function by local volume transmission in multiple distinct circuits."<br /> Signaling by NPs in this second category (many small cells) suggests more local diffusion, a smaller geographic expanse compared to "volume" signaling by the sparser larger peptidergic cells. Given this, I suggest re-consideration in using the term "volume" in this instance, perhaps in favor of "local" or "paracrine". This is only a suggestion and in fact rests almost entirely on speculation/ interpretation, as the field lacks a strong empirical basis to say how far NPs diffuse and act. A recent study in the fly brain of peptide co-transmitters (doi: 10.1016/j.cub.2020.04.025) provides an instructive example in which differences between the spatial extents of long-range (peptide 1) versus short-range (peptide 2) NP signaling may be inferred in vivo.

      Spab was mentioned (Figure 6 legend) but discarded as a candidate NP to include based on a personal communication, as was Nplp1. The manuscript did not include reasons to do so, nor include a reference to spab peptide. I suggest including explicit reasons to discard candidate NPs.

      In Fig 9-supplement 1, neurotransmitter biosynthetic enzymes were measured by RNA-seq for given CX cell types to augment the cell type classification. The same methods could be used to support cell type classification regarding putative peptidergic character (in Figure 9 supplement 2) by measuring expression levels of critical, canonical neuropeptide biosynthetic enzymes. These include the proprotein convertase dPC2 (amon); the carboxypeptidase dCPD/E (silver); and the amidating enzymes dPHM; dPal1; dPal2. PHM is most related to DBM (dopamine beta monooxygenase), the rate limiting enzyme for DA production, and greater than 90% of Drosophila neuropeptides are amidated. If the authors are correct in surmising widespread use of NPs by CX cell types (and I expect they are), there could be diagnostic value to report expression levels of this enzyme set across many/most CX cell types.

      Comment #6<br /> Screen of effects on Sleep behavior<br /> This work is large in scope and as suggested likely presents excellent starting points for many follow-up studies. I again suggest assigning stable number identities to the elements described. In this case, not cell types, but split Gal4 lines. This would expedite the cross-referencing of results across the four Supplemental Files 3-6. For example, line SS00273 is entry line #27 in S Files 3 and 4, but line entry #18 in S Files 5 and 6.

      manuscript p 26<br /> Clock to CX<br /> "Not surprisingly, the connectome reveals that many of the intrinsic CX cell types with sleep phenotypes are connected by wired pathways (Figure 12 and Figure 12-figure supplement 1)."<br /> Do intrinsic CX cells with sleep phenotypes also connect by wired pathways to CX cells that do not have sleep phenotypes?

      "The connectome also suggested pathways from the circadian clock to the CX. Links between clock output DN1 neurons to the ExR1 have been described in Lamaze et al. (2018) and Guo et al. (2018), and Liang et al. (2019) described a connection from the clock to ExR2 (PPM3) dopaminergic neurons."<br /> The introduction to this section indicates a focus on connectome-defined synaptic contacts. Whereas the first two studies cited featured both physiological and anatomic evidence to support connectivity from clock cells to CX, the third did not describe any anatomical connections, and that connection may in fact be due to diffuse not synaptic signaling

      I could not easily discern the difference between Figs 12 and 12-S1? These appear to be highly-related circuit models, wherein the second features more elements. Perhaps spell out the basis for the differences between the two models to avoid ambiguity.

      "...the cellular targets of Dh31 released from ER5 are unknown, however previous work (Goda et al., 2017; Mertens et al., 2005) has shown that Dh31 can activate the PDF receptor raising the possibility of autocrine signaling."<br /> Regarding pharmacological evidence for Dh31 activation of Pdfr: strong in vivo evidence was developed in doi: 10.1016/j.neuron.2008.02.018: a strong pdfr mutation greatly reduces response to synthetic dh31 in neurons that normally express Pdfr

      manuscript p 30<br /> "Unexpectedly, we found that all neuropeptide-expressing cell types also expressed a small neurotransmitter."<br /> Did this conclusion apply only to CX cell types? - or was it also true for large peptidergic neurons? Prior evidence suggests the latter may not express small transmitters (doi: 10.1016/j.cub.2009.11.065). The question pertains to the broader biology of peptidergic neurons, and is therefore outside the strict scope of the main focus area - the CX. However, the text did initially consider peptidergic neurons outside the CX, so the information may be pertinent to many readers.

    2. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors created and characterized genetic tools that allow for precise manipulation of individual or small subsets of central complex (CX) cell types in the Drosophila brain. They developed split-GAL4 driver lines and integrated this with a detailed survey of neurotransmitter and neuropeptide expression and receptor localization in the central brain. The manuscript also explores the functional relevance of CX cell types by evaluating their roles in sleep regulation and linking circadian clock signals to the CX. This work represents an ambitious and comprehensive effort to provide both molecular and functional insights into the CX, offering tools and data that will serve as a critical resource for researchers.

      Strengths:

      (1) The extensive collection of split-GAL4 lines targeting specific CX cell types fills a critical gap in the genetic toolkit for the Drosophila neuroscience community.<br /> (2) By combining anatomical, molecular, and functional analyses, the authors provide a holistic view of CX cell types that is both informative and immediately useful for researchers across diverse disciplines.<br /> (3) The identification of CX cell types involved in sleep regulation and their connection to circadian clock mechanisms highlights the functional importance of the CX and its integrative role in regulating behavior and physiological states.<br /> (4) The authors' decision to present this work as a single, comprehensive manuscript rather than fragmenting it into smaller publications each focusing on separate central complex components is commendable. This decision prioritizes accessibility and utility for the broader neuroscience community, which will enable researchers to approach CX-related questions with a ready-made toolkit.

      Weaknesses:

      While the manuscript is an outstanding resource, it leaves room for more detailed mechanistic exploration in some areas. Nonetheless, this does not diminish the immediate value of the tools and data provided.

      Appraisal:

      The authors have succeeded in achieving their aims of creating well-characterized genetic tools and providing a detailed survey of neurochemical and functional properties in the CX. The results strongly support their conclusions and open numerous avenues for future research. The work effectively bridges the gap between genetic manipulation, molecular characterization, and functional assessment, enabling a deeper understanding of the CX's diverse roles.

      Impact and Utility

      This manuscript will have a significant and lasting impact on the field, providing tools and data that facilitate new discoveries in the study of the CX, sleep regulation, circadian biology, and beyond. The genetic tools developed here are likely to become a standard resource for Drosophila researchers, and the comprehensive dataset on neurotransmitter and neuropeptide expression will inspire investigations into the interplay between neuromodulation and classical neurotransmission.

      Additional Context

      By delivering an integrated dataset that spans anatomy, molecular properties, and functional relevance, the authors have created a resource that will serve the neuroscience community for years to come.

    1. Bias exists in current data collection practices, leaving women and girls invisible in the data.

      Los sesgos en la recopilación de datos y la invisibilización de mujeres y niñas puede relacionarse profundamente con corporalidades, traducción e Inteligencia Artificial.

      Corporalidades y recopilación de datos

      La invisibilidad de corporalidades diversas en los métodos tradicionales de recopilación de datos tienden a generalizar los cuerpos de las mujeres y niñas, omitiendo diferencias significativas como raza, etnicidad, identidad de género, condición de discapacidad o edad. Un enfoque feminista desvirtuaría estos datos para representar estas corporalidades y sus experiencias específicas.

      Los sesgos en tecnologías biométricas y sensores en la Inteligencia Artificial analizan datos corporales, como reconocimiento facial o monitoreo de salud, a menudo fallan en captar la diversidad de cuerpos femeninos o marginados, reforzando estereotipos y exclusión.

      Traducción como puente inclusivo

      El lenguaje inclusivo en la recopilación de datos, al traducir encuestas, análisis o resultados, se corre el riesgo de eliminar términos culturalmente específicos como los culturemas que reflejan la diversidad de corporalidades y experiencias. Por ejemplo, conceptos relacionados con género o identidad corporal en un idioma pueden no tener equivalentes exactos en otro, lo que invisibiliza problemáticas clave.

      La interpretación del significado en la traducción de datos requiere una sensibilidad cultural y feminista que respete las diferencias lingüísticas y semánticas de cómo las corporalidades y el género son comprendidos en distintos contextos. Sin esta sensibilidad, la traducción puede reforzar las inequidades en lugar de corregirlas.

      Inteligencia Artificial (IA) y recopilación feminista de datos

      Las oportunidades en la Inteligencia Artificial tiene un enorme potencial para analizar grandes volúmenes de datos de manera desagregada, identificar patrones de exclusión y ampliar el uso de fuentes no tradicionales (como redes sociales, sensores, y datos de dispositivos móviles). Esto podría visibilizar experiencias de mujeres y niñas que antes eran ignoradas.

      Los riesgos de sesgos algorítmicos sucederían si los algoritmos de Inteligencia Artificial son entrenados con datos históricos sesgados, replicarán esas inequidades. Esto incluye subrepresentar corporalidades no normativas o ignorar contextos culturales específicos al interpretar datos traducidos.

      El diseño interseccional sirve para superar estas limitaciones, los algoritmos deben diseñarse con principios feministas que incluyan parámetros explícitos para identificar y corregir sesgos relacionados con género y corporalidades diversas.

      1. Preguntas críticas para la recopilación inclusiva de datos

      Las preguntas pueden adaptarse para incluir corporalidades, traducción e IA:

      •   ¿Quién define qué corporalidades son relevantes y cómo se representan en los datos?
      •   ¿Quién traduce y cómo garantiza que las voces de las mujeres y niñas sean fielmente representadas?
      •   ¿Cómo asegura la IA que los datos desagregados reflejen experiencias interseccionales y no perpetúen exclusión?
      •   ¿Quién decide qué fuentes de datos se utilizan y con qué criterios éticos?
      

      Hacia una Inteligencia Artificial inclusiva

      Una Inteligencia Artificial de recopilación de datos verdaderamente inclusiva debe:

      1.  Diseñar encuestas y procesos de recopilación que reconozcan la diversidad de corporalidades y vivencias.
      2.  Incorporar traducciones que respeten el contexto cultural y lingüístico, permitiendo que los datos capturen las realidades de mujeres y niñas en distintos entornos.
      3.  Utilizar IA para integrar fuentes de datos no tradicionales, asegurando que los modelos sean revisados constantemente para mitigar sesgos algorítmicos.
      4.  Basarse en principios feministas que guíen cada etapa del proceso, desde la definición del problema hasta el uso de los datos.
      
    1. Pearson’s correlation coefficients between tropical cyclone activity parameters and climatic variability modes. GEN: TC genesis, TS: tropical storm, HN (N = 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5): hurricanes with different categories on the Saffir-Simpson scale, LMI: mean TC maximum intensity, and MLT: mean TC lifetime. For the genesis, tropical storm, and hurricane categories, correlation was established between the number of TCs and the climatic variability modes. Statistically significant correlations are shown in bold text (p < 0.05)

      Highlight: Table that can be used

    2. Temporal evolution and linear trends (dashed lines) in the number of TCs genesis events, tropical storms (TS), and hurricanes (HN, N = 1, 2, 3, 4, 5) on the Saffir-Simpson wind scale from 1980 to 2019 in the NATL basin. Statistically significant trends (95% significance level) were observed for TS. In the linear equation, t represents the number of years since 1980.

      Highlight: Graph that can be used

    3. Acknowledgments The authors acknowledge the COBE SST2 data provided by the NOAA/OAR/ESRL (PSL, Boulder, Colorado, USA), obtained from their website at https://psl.noaa.gov/data/gridded/data.cobe2.html and to the public IBTrACs database provided by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. Also, A.P-A. acknowledges the support from UVigo PhD grants. J.C.F-A. and R.S acknowledge the support from the Xunta de Galicia (Galician Regional Government). References Aiyyer, A. & Thorncroft, C. 2006. “Climatology of vertical shear over the tropical Atlantic”. Journal of Climate, 19: 2969-2983, ISSN: 0894-8755, DOI: 10.1175/JCLI3685.1. Andrews, D. G.; Holton, J. R. & Leovy, C. B. 1987. Middle Atmosphere Dynamics. 1st ed., vol. 40, United Kingdom: Academic Press, 489p., ISBN: 9780080511672, Available: <https://www.sciencedirect.com/bookseries/international-geophysics/vol/40/suppl/C>, [Consulted: Febraury 10, 2021]. 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P. 2007. “The Atlantic meridional mode and hurricane activity”. Geophysical Research Letter, 34: L07709, ISSN: 1944-8007, DOI: 10.1029/2007GL029683. Wang, X.; Liu, H. & Foltz, G. R. 2017. “Persistent influence of tropical North Atlantic wintertime sea surface temperature on the subsequent Atlantic hurricane season”. Geophysical Research Letter, 44: 7927- 7935, ISSN: 1944-8007 , DOI: 10.1002/2017GL074801. Wehner, M.; Prabhat; Reed, K. A.; Stone, D.; Collins, W. D. & Bacmeister, J. 2015. “Resolution Dependence of Future Tropical Cyclone Projections of CAM5.1 in the U.S. CLIVAR Hurricane Working Group Idealized Configurations”. Journal of Climate, 28: 3905-3925, ISSN: 0894-8755, DOI: 10.1175/JCLI-D-14-00311.1. Xie, L.; Yan, T.; Pietrafesa, L. J.; Morrison, J. M. & Karl, T. 2005. “Climatology and Interannual Variability of North Atlantic Hurricane Tracks”. Journal of Climate, 18: 5370-5381, ISSN: 0894-8755, DOI: 10.1175/JCLI3560.1. Xu, J.; Wang, Y. & Tan, Z. 2016. “The Relationship between Sea Surface Temperature and Maximum Intensification Rate of Tropical Cyclones in the North Atlantic”. Journal of Atmospheric Sciences, 73: 4979-4988, ISSN: 1520-0469, DOI: 10.1175/JAS-D-16-0164.1. Ye, M.; Wu, J.; Liu, W.; He, X. & Wang, C. 2020. “Dependence of tropical cyclone damage on maximum wind speed and socioeconomic factors”. Environmental Research Letters, 15(9): 094061, ISSN: 1748-9326, DOI: 10.1088/1748-9326/ab9be2.

      CIT: Possible resources

    1. Figure 2(a) Satellite IR imagery, (b) modelled (grid 2; 12 km resolution) OLR (W m−2), (c) radar precipitation (from BoM Cairns radar) and (d) modelled (grid 3; 4 km resolution) 30 min precipitation rate (mm h−1) shortly before TC Yasi made landfall.DownloadFigure 3(a) Maximum simulated storm surge over the CTRL simulation. Open circles indicate location of tide gauge observations and simulation output locations, respectively. (b) Simulated and observed storm surge levels at locations plotted in (a).DownloadFigure 4(a) Tracks of TC Yasi from all nine simulations and time series showing the difference (SST runs minus CTRL) in (c) minimum pressure (hPa) and (b) maximum wind speed (m s−1).

      Graphs that can be used for data

    2. The Weather Research and Forecasting (WRF) model, version 3.4, is used with a vortex-following, two-way nesting configuration. There are three domains. The outer grid has a horizontal resolution of 36 km. Both inner grids, 2 and 3, are able to move and have a grid spacing of 12 and 4 km respectively. All grids have 36 vertical levels with a model top of 20 hPa. Only the outer grid is forced with the atmospheric and SST data. The following parameterisations were selected based on a number of tests and using previous analysis results: the Thompson et al. (2008) microphysics, the Rapid Radiative Transfer Model (RRTM) for longwave radiation (Mlawer et al., 1997), the Goddard shortwave scheme (Chou and Suarez, 1994) and the Mellor–Yamada–Nakanishi–Niino Level 2.5 TKE scheme for the planetary boundary layer (Nakanishi and Niino, 2006). The Kain–Fritsch (K–F; Kain, 2004) cumulus parameterisation scheme was used on all grids.

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      Referee #2

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      Summary:

      In their manuscript, Rodrigues-Junior and colleagues identify a novel ligand-independent function of the tyrosine kinase receptor (RTK) ErbB3 as a regulator of integrin β1 recycling. In particular, the authors demonstrate that ErbB3 depletion reduce β1 integrin surface expression, triggering its lysosomal degradation and increasing its secretion in extracellular vesicles (EVs). Moreover, the authors show that these EVs enhanced the invasive capacity of ErbB3 wild type breast epithelial cells. In addition, the authors evidence the interaction between ErbB3, GGA3 and Rabaptin5. Loss of any of these proteins destabilizes this interaction, which abrogates integrin β1 recycling and leads to its degradation and secretion. The work is potentially interesting; however, there are some aspects that need to be analyzed in a more robust manner.

      Major comments:

      1. The manuscript is mainly focused on β1 integrin endocytic and post-endocytic fate following ErbB3 silencing, describing also a molecular mechanism underlying these observations. Despite the cited manuscript by Deneka, A. and colleagues indicates a similar mechanism for transferrin receptor (TfR) recycling, the Authors only studied the receptor internalization upon ErbB3 silencing. Therefore, this observation does not add any significance to the main topic of the manuscript and its removal should be considered.
      2. Data from Figure S1A seems to be not normally distributed. Have the Authors tested the data for normal distribution? If not, please consider it. If the data is not normally distributed, a non parametric Mann-Whitney U-Test would be more suitable.
      3. The Authors studied the colocalization of ErbB3, Rab4 and Rab11, observing an increased colocalization between ErbB3 and Rab4 10 minutes following primaquine. However, the Authors previously referred to Sönnichsen, B et al. manuscript, in which TfR colocalized with Rab11 at 30min. It would be interesting to see whether ErbB3 and Rab11 colocalize at later time points in the presence or absence of primaquine. This will reinforce the conclusion that ErbB3 is involved in early Rab4-dependent recycling.
      4. In Figure 4C the Authors observed a reduction in β1 integrin levels in ErbB3 silenced cells compared to the control already at the beginning of tracing (0 min), which might be due to accelerated turnover at the internalization step of their experimental design. To confirm this, immunofluorescence of β1 integrin in control and ErbB3 silenced cells could be performed just right after the 15min integrin internalization.
      5. In the discussion, the Authors indicate that "loss of ErbB3 redirects Integrin β1 towards lysosomes for degradation, mimicking loss of GGA3 that similarly redirects both Integrin β123 and c-Met towards lysosomal degradation21, or Rabaptin5 depletion that we find similarly redirects trafficking of internalised Integrin β1 towards lysosomal degradation". However, the involvement of lysosomal degradation was only studied for ErbB3 silencing by employing chloroquine. To further support this statement, the use of chloroquine in Rabaptin5- and GGA3-depleted cells is recommended.

      Minor comments:

      6.The Authors should consider shortening the following sentences from the Introduction: "GGA proteins contain several functional domains that...thereby regulating sorting of cargo including Integrin β3 and TfR into recycling endosomes". 7. The Authors do not show ErbB3 silencing efficiency at the protein level until Figure 3G, which should have been shown in Figure 1 or Supplementary Figure 1, as all the research is based on it. Moreover, GGA3 silencing efficiency was never tested. 8. Figure 1I and Figure 1K may include the representative images for the missing siErbB3 to properly illustrate the associated quantifications 9. Consider including a Western blot showing the effect of lapatinib in EGFR, ErbB2 and ErbB3 protein expression, including their phosphorylated forms. 10. Some supplementary figures are mislabeled, such as Supplementary Figure S5D and S5E on page 10, which should be S7D and S7E, respectively. Supplementary Figure S7C on page 15 should be S9C. 11. The following sentence on page 8 should be revised as a verb is missing: "which corresponds to the reported peak time when colocalization of Rab4 with traced TfR, preceding Rab11 and TfR colocalization that peaks later at 30 minutes". 12. The main text indicates that the amount of VSV-G transported to the cell surface after 30min it is not affected by ErbB3 silencing. However, in Figure 3E seems to slightly decrease following the silencing. The Authors may consider employing another Western blot image to match the main text and the quantification in Figure 3F. 13. In the main text, a significant difference in the nanoparticles/cell between ErbB3-depleted cells and wild type or control cells were reported. However, Figure 3I only showed the statistics of each siRNA vs the control and not the wild type condition. 14. The Authors concluded that "chloroquine treatment significantly restored traced Integrin β1 levels". However, this conclusion is not reflected in the statistical analysis reported in Figure 4H, which only showed the differences between control and ErbB3 silenced cells. Thus, the statistics reported for the chloroquine results should be added. 15. The Authors concluded that "loss of either GGA3 or Rabaptin5 mimics the effect of loss of ErbB3 on endocytic trafficking of Integrin β1, consistent with the hypothesis that GGA3 and Rabaptin5 are effectors of ErbB3 in promoting endosomal recycling and impeding EV release". To confirm this conclusion, the inclusion of siRabaptin5 results in Figures 6H and 6J is suggested. 16. To be consistent with the results presentation: - The inclusion of Modal size is recommended in Figure 6I. - Some graphs show the number of cells or biological replicates while other ones no. - Figure 4E showed different time points for both siRNAs. 17. Figure 1E represents the squared regions of Figure 1D, but it is not indicated in the figure legend. 18. In the legend of Figure 1D-G, 30min of integrin internalization is reported, where it should be 15min according to main text and methods. 19. The addition of representative images in Figure 6A is recommended, as already present in Figure 1I. 20. As two different siRNAs for ErbB3 were used and not in all experiments, the employed siRNA should be indicated in each experiment. In the cases where both ErbB3 siRNAs were employed, figures should report them either as main results or supplementary. 21. Why do the Authors use EVs enriched in the VSF or by UC to show the same result? What is the criteria to choose one or the other one? For example in Figures 6G and 6K.

      Significance

      Various studies highlight the involvement of the RTK ErbB3 in cancer development, as well as its potential use a biomarker for prognosis and therapy resistance. It is also known that ErbB3 is constitutively internalized and degraded, in a process controlled by PKC (Dietrich, M. et al. 2019, Exp Cell Res). However, the novelty of this manuscript resides in the idea that ErbB3, as other transmembrane receptors, may regulate the endocytosis and post-endocytic fate of different cargoes, such as integrin β1. The discovery and understanding of new molecular mechanisms might help in the identification of new potential targets for cancer treatment, as well as other diseases in which the endocytic pathways are altered.

      Field of expertise: integrin-mediated cell adhesion and migration, integrin endocytosis and recylcing

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      Referee #1

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      ErbB3 is well-known for its significance in cancer, which is dependent on ligand-binding and heterodimerization with other ErbB family members. In the current work, Rodrigues-Junior et al. identified novel, unexpected functions of ErbB3 in promoting early endocytic recycling and restricting exocytic trafficking (extracellular vesicles secretion) of membrane receptors, such as integrin b1 and transferrin receptor, via stabilizing the Arf6-GGA3-Rabaptin5 endosomal sorting complex.

      Via ErbB3 siRNA knockdown, they observed an impaired recycling of transferrin receptor and integrin b1 back to the cell membrane. The recycling assay condition (growth factor-deprived) provided a very clean result to support that this ErbB3-dependent endocytic trafficking is ligand-binding independent. The trafficking-dependence on ErbB3 (both the endocytic and the exocytic) was further supported by integrin b1 functional assays (scratch closure assay and Matrigel invasion assay). There are still some details that need to be clarified to fully understand the conclusion.

      Major points:

      1. The manuscript started with a pathological correlation between high ErbB3 level and poor patient survival rate. In Fig.1, the impaired TfR recycling, and the co-localization between ErbB3 and integrin b1 were also performed in the pathological breast cancer cell line, MCF7. While investigating integrin b1 recycling, the authors suddenly switched to another two non-malignant human breast epithelial cell lines, which led to a difficult correlation of ErbB3-mediated recycling back to the disease situation. The authors should state more clearly this point, rather than data not shown. This inconsistency occurred also in other assays, for example, when addressing the trafficking from TGN to cell surface, MCF7 was utilized; while when addressing extracellular vesicle secretion, MCF10A was utilized.
      2. It was shown before that ErbB3 undergoes constitutive internalization and degradation within several hours that is independent of ligand-binding (ref#13). Can the authors provide experimental evidences to show the correlation of TfR or integrin b1 recycling with this dynamic ErbB3 levels rather than ErbB3 knockdown?
      3. The efficiency of siRNA knockdown of ErbB3 (both #1 and #2) should support the observed phenotype (Fig. 1I-J, K-L). Is there a correlation between the ErbB3 level with integrin recycling? For example, siRNA#2 led to more efficient knockdown of ErbB3 in MCF10A?
      4. ErbB3 loss led to more extracellular vesicles secretion, but also lysosomal degradation of integrin b1. This conclusion is supported by results shown in Fig.4D-E and Fig. S8A-B, while the analysis from the same cell line (MCF10A, Fig. S3A) results in no change of integrin b1 levels upon ErbB3 depletion. Fig. S3B showed also no change in a second non-malignant cell line (prHMEC). How do the authors explain this conflict?

      Minor points:

      1. Is TfR also colocalizing with endogenous ErbB3?
      2. Fig. 3J, TSG101, T is masked by 3I
      3. Page 10, the description of the EV secretion in prHMEC cells is annotated to the wrong figure. Fig S5D S7D; S5E S7E
      4. Fig. 4M: How was the motility/invasion into Matrigel determined? Images? Only quantifications are shown.
      5. Fig. 4M: Exosomes collected from ErbB3-depleted cells promotes the migration in MCF10A-wild type cells, how about the effects on ErbB3-depleted cells? This group should be included for analysis.
      6. Quantification of the blots should be provided for Fig. 5A (GGA3), 5B (GGA3, Rabaptin5 and Arf6), 5F (GGA3) and 5G (GGA3, Rabaptin5 and Arf6). What is mock IP in each graph? The mock IP is neither mentioned in methods nor in legends.

      Significance

      Strength: The recycling assay condition (growth factor-deprived) provided a very clean result to support that this ErbB3-dependent endocytic trafficking is ligand-binding independent.

      Limitations: Constantly change cell lines when addressing different questions

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife Assessment:

      This study provides valuable insights, addressing the growing threat of multi-drug-resistant (MDR) pathogens by focusing on the enhanced efficacy of colistin when combined with artesunate and EDTA against colistin-resistant Salmonella strains. The evidence is solid, supported by comprehensive microbiological assays, molecular analyses, and in vivo experiments demonstrating the effectiveness of this synergic combination. However, the discussion on the clinical application challenges of this triple combination is incomplete, and it would benefit from addressing the high risk associated with using three potential nephrotoxic agents in vivo.

      The development of novel pharmaceutical dosage forms, pharmacokinetic, pharmacodynamic and safety analysis of the triple combination will be further conducted in our next study to provide a theoretical basis for the next clinical drug use. The discussion of potential toxicity of AS, colistin, EDTA and the triple combination have been added in line 318 to 337.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      (1) The study focuses on a limited number of Salmonella strains, and broader testing on various MDR pathogens would strengthen the findings.

      The number of COL-resistant clinical strains that actually used was larger than that mentioned in our original article, when evaluating the antimicrobial activities of AS, EDTA, COL alone or drug combinations. But, considering that there were superfluous results of mcr-1 positive Salmonella strains, we omitted these results (Table supplement 7 and 8 in revised supplement materials) to avoid redundant data presentation in the original article. Additionally, much more gram-negative and -positive MDR bacteria, such as Klebsiella pneumoniae, Pseudomonas aeruginosa and Staphylococcus aureus will be selected for the next study including the development of novel pharmaceutical dosage forms, pharmacokinetic, pharmacodynamic and safety analysis et al.

      (2) While the study elucidates several mechanisms, further molecular details could provide deeper insights into the interactions between these drugs and bacterial targets.

      In our next study, further molecular details will be focused on the regulatory targets of CheA and SpvD-related pathways, as well as the precise inhibition targets of MCR protein by the triple combination, through the generation of deletion or point mutations, and analysis of intermolecular interactions.

      (3) The time-kill experiment was conducted over 12 hours instead of the recommended 24 hours. To demonstrate a synergistic effect among the drugs, a reduction of at least 2 log10 in colony count should be shown in a 24-hour experiment. Additionally, clarifying the criteria for selecting drug concentrations is important to improve the interpretation of the results.

      The time-kill experiment of 24 hours have been re-executed and could be used to replace the Figure 1 in the original paper. The New Figure 1 has been uploaded and the change do not affect our interpretation of the result.

      Although in vitro studies have determined that with increasing dose of AS and EDTA, the antibacterial synergistic activity was gradually enhanced, and meanwhie, may also resulting in more toxic side effects. Thus, in our study, the 1/8 MICs of AS and EDTA were selected to ensure excellent antibacterial activity whereas minimize the potential toxicity. The instructions on the selection of drug concentration have been added in line 323 to 326.

      (4) While the combination of EDTA, artesunate, and colistin shows promising in vitro results against Salmonella strains, the clinical application of this combination warrants careful consideration due to potential toxicity issues associated with these compounds.

      The development of novel pharmaceutical dosage forms, pharmacokinetic, pharmacodynamic and safety analysis of the triple combination will be further conducted in our next study to provide a theoretical basis for the next clinical drug use.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      (1) The study by Zhai et al describes repurposing of artesunate, to be used in combination with EDTA to resensitize Salmonella spp. to colistin. The observed effect applied both to strains with and without mobile colistin resistance determinants (MCR). It was already known that EDTA in combination with colistin has an inhibitory effect on MCR-enzymes, but at the same time, both colistin and EDTA can contribute to nephrotoxicity, something which is also true for artesunate. Thus, the triple combination of three nephrotoxic agents has significant challenges in vivo, which is not particularly discussed in this paper.

      The discussion of potential toxicity of triple combination has been added in line 318 to 337.

      (2) The selection of strains is not very clear. Nothing is known about the sequence types of the strains or how representative they are for strains circulating in general. Thus, it is difficult to generalize from this limited number of isolates, although the studies done in these isolates are comprehensive.

      The tested strains in this study were all COL-resistant clinical isolates, and the genome sequencing and comparative analysis of these strains have not been analyzed. The antibacterial activities of different antimicrobial drugs against the S16 and S30 strains have been measured and listed in the Table supplement 9 within revised supplement materials. Considering that the number of COL-resistant clinical strains that actually used was larger than that mentioned in our original article (see the NO.1 response to the Public Reviewer #1), we think that the results obtained in this study could be representative to some extent.

      (3) Nothing is known about the susceptibility of the strains to other novel antimicrobial agents. Colistin has a limited role in the treatment of gram-negative infections, and although it can be used sometimes in combination, it is not clear why it would be combined with two other nephrotoxic agents and how this could have relevance in a clinical setting.

      The antibacterial activities of different antimicrobial drugs against the S16 and S30 strains have been measured and listed in the Table supplement 9 within revised supplement materials. Additionally, the discussion of potential toxicity of triple combination has been added in line 318 to 337.

      (4) It is not clear whether their transcriptomics analysis should at least be carried out in duplicate for reasons of being able to assess reproducibility. It is also not clear why the samples were incubated for 6 hours - no discussion is presented on the selection of a time point for this.

      As it can be seen from the time kill curves that the survival number of bacteria started to decrease after 4 h incubation of drug combinations. If the incubation time is too short (for example less than 4 h), the differentially expressed genes can not be fully revealed, while too long incubation time (such as 8 h and 12 h) may lead to a significant CFU reduction of bacteria, and result in inaccurate sequencing results. Therefore, we selected the incubation time 6 h, at which point drugs exhibited  significant antibacterial effects and there were also enough survival bacteria in the sample for transcriptome analysis. Each sample had three replications to preserve the accuracy of results.

      (5) Discussion is lacking on the reproducibility and selection of details for the methodology.

      The results obtained in this paper have been repeated several times, which indicated that the detailed operation steps described in the materials and methods section were reproducibility. To avoid redundancy, we did not include too much details in the discussion section.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      (1) Number of strains tested.

      The number of COL-resistant clinical strains that actually used was larger than that mentioned in our original article (see the NO.1 response to the Public Reviewer #1)

      (2) Response to comment: Lack of data on cytotoxicity.

      The pharmacokinetic, pharmacodynamic and safety analysis of the triple combination will be further conducted in our next study to provide a theoretical basis for the next clinical drug use.

      Recommendations For The Authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Introduction:

      The introduction should provide more context about the pathogen Salmonella, its significance in both human and veterinary medicine, and the impact of colistin resistance in these pathogens. Salmonella is a leading cause of foodborne illnesses worldwide, resulting in substantial morbidity and mortality. It can cause a range of diseases, from gastroenteritis to more severe systemic infections like typhoid fever and invasive non-typhoidal salmonellosis. In veterinary medicine, Salmonella infections can lead to significant economic losses in livestock industries due to illness and death among animals, as well as through the contamination of animal products.

      The description has been added in the introduction section in line 47 to 53.

      (2) Results and Discussion:

      (1) While the combination of EDTA, artesunate, and colistin shows promising in vitro results against Salmonella, the clinical application of this combination warrants careful consideration due to potential toxicity issues associated with these compounds. Colistin is known for nephrotoxicity and neurotoxicity, limiting its use to severe cases where the benefits outweigh the risks. EDTA, as a chelating agent, can disrupt essential metal ions in the body, posing risks of metabolic imbalances. Although it has clinical applications, primarily in cases of heavy metal poisoning, its use as an adjuvant in antibiotics may present risks. Although generally well-tolerated for malaria, interactions of artesunate with other drugs and long-term safety in combined therapies require thorough investigation.

      The discussion of potential toxicity of triple combination has been added in line 318 to 337.

      (2) Table 1: The manuscript mentions that some strains used in the study are mcr-positive and mcr-negative. It is important to indicate in Table 1, in addition to the identification of Salmonella species, which strains are mcr-positive or mcr-negative.

      The relevant information has been added in Table 1.

      (3) Figure 2: What is the authors' hypothesis regarding the growth curves labeled "a" and "e" where strains JS and S16 resume growth 12 hours after treatment with AS? In the legend of Figure 2, describe what was used as the "positive control group."

      The growth curves labeled “a” and “e” were in Figure 1. After incubated with AC for 8 h, the survival CFUs of JS and S16 strains showed a slightly reduction, but there were still living cells. Since the bactericidal activity of AC is not strong enough to exert sustained bactericidal activity, these remaining living cells will resume growth after treatment with AC for 12 h. The “positive control group” in the legend of Figure 2 has been indicated in line 724.

      (4) What is the authors' hypothesis for the differences observed in the transcriptome and metabolome?

      The changes in gene transcription level may cause corresponding changes in protein level, but these proteins are not all involved in the bacterial metabolic process. For example, MCR protein  is encoded by the COL resistance related gene mcr, which mediates the modification of lipid A, but are not involved in the cellular metabolic process. Therefore, the transcriptome change of mcr gene may affect the protein production of MCR, nor the bacterial metabolic processes, so there are differences observed in the transcriptome and metabolome.

      (5) In some parts of the text, the authors state that artesunate and EDTA potentiate the action of colistin, which is a bacteriostatic drug. However, in other parts, the authors describe the effect of the AEC combination as bacteriostatic (Abstract: line 32; Results: line 179). How do the authors explain this inconsistency?

      The artesunate and EDTA could be regarded as “adjuvants” for the bacteriostatic drug colistin. Adjuvants itself act no or weak antibacterial effect on bacteria. For antimicrobial drugs, the “adjuvants” are compounds that generally used in combination with antibacterial drugs to re-sensitizing bacteria that have developed drug resistance. Thus, in this paper the AEC combination could be regared as bacteriostatic.

      (6) According to Brennan & Kirby (2019; doi: 10.1016/j.cll.2019.04.002), to evaluate the synergism between different drug combinations, bacterial growth curves need to be assessed over 24 hours. If the colony count is {greater than or equal to} 2 log10 lower than that of the most active antimicrobial alone, the combination is considered synergistic. Based on the growth curve results shown in Figure 1, the experiment was conducted for 12 hours, and in some cases, only a small reduction in growth was observed, even at the maximum concentration of colistin. Moreover, in some cases, the curve resumes rising between 8 and 12 hours. What is the authors' hypothesis in this case? It is important to conduct the assay over 24 hours to confirm the synergism between these drugs.

      The time-kill experiment of 24 hours have been re-executed and could be used to replace the Figure 1 in the original paper. Additionally, the phenomenon that “the curve resumes rising between 8 and 12 hours” has been explained in the response to comment of “Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors), Results and Discussion, (3) Figure 2”.

      (7) To prove that CheA and SpvD play a critical role in the effect of the AEC combination, deletion of these genes should be performed, and the mutant strains should be tested.

      The deletion of cheA and spvD will be carried out in our next study.

      (8) To demonstrate that the flagellum is no longer assembled, a transmission electron microscopy image using antibodies against flagellin should be performed, along with motility tests.

      The motility assays have been performed and displayed as Figure supplement 5 in the revised supplement materials.

      (9) Figure 7: In the X-axis legend, specify what "model" refers to.

      The “model” refers to the PBS control group that mice were treated with PBS after the intraperitoneal injection of 100 µL bacterial solution (1.31 × 10<sup>5</sup> CFU).

      (10) Figure 8 Legend: In the legend of Figure 8 (line 717), are the authors referring to E. coli or Salmonella?

      It referred to Salmonella, which has already been illustrated in the headline of Figure 8 in the revised manuscript.

      (3) Materials and Methods:

      (1) Bacterial Strains and Agents: It would be beneficial to include in the table the species of the strains used in the study, as well as the concentrations of colistin, artesunate, and EDTA utilized (lines 321 - 332).

      We have ever tried to add the above information to Table 1, but the addition of this information would make the table too large and beyond the margins, which is not conducive to the layout design of the table, so we chose to display these information in the materials and methods section instead of the table.

      (2) Antibacterial Activity In Vitro: Ensure clarity and well-defined ranges for the concentrations of colistin, EDTA, and artesunate used separately and in combinations (lines 335 - 344).

      The drug concentrations have been listed in line 369 to 371.

      (3) Time-Kill Assays: Clarify the criteria for selecting concentrations, whether based on MICs or peak and trough concentrations relevant to human and animal treatments with colistin (lines 345 - 351).

      Although in vitro studies have determined that with increasing dose of AS and EDTA, the antibacterial synergistic activity was gradually enhanced, and meanwhie, may also resulting in more toxic side effects. Thus, in our study, the 1/8 MICs of AS and EDTA were selected to ensure excellent antibacterial activity whereas minimize the potential toxicity. The instructions on the selection of drug concentration have been added in line 323 to 326.

      (4) General Corrections: Throughout the manuscript, correct typographical errors and consistently include the concentration values in mg/L alongside the MIC fractions. Specify the strains used for all experiments to ensure clarity. In the manuscript, the term "medication regimens" is used to describe the experimental setups involving different combinations of drugs tested in vitro. To improve accuracy and clarity, it is recommended to use the term "drug combination" instead. This term is more appropriate for in vitro experiments and will help avoid confusion with clinical treatment protocols.

      The typographical errors have been checked and corrected throughout the manuscript, and the “medication regimens” have been replaced by “drug combinations”.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Please see above for recommendations on what can be done to improve the manuscript.

      While other omics analyses have been conducted herein, the authors do not comment on the genomic analysis of their own strains. It would have been a natural step to sequence all the strains used in the experiments.

      Due to limited program funding, the genome sequencing and comparative analysis of these strains have not been analyzed. The antibacterial activities of different antimicrobial drugs against the S16 and S30 strains have been measured and listed in the Table supplement 9 within revised supplement materials.

      Some minor comments:

      (1) There are some spelling errors - e.g. "bacteria strains" instead of "bacterial strains".

      The grammar and spelling errors have been corrected throughout the manuscript.

      (2) I would avoid words like "unfortunately".

      The word “unfortunately” has been changed.

      (3) Some MIC-values in Table 1 seem incorrect - e.g. 24 mg/L. This is not a 2-log value - the value should be 32 mg/L if the dilution series has been carried out correctly.

      We are so sorry for the mistake. The data has been corrected, and we also checked other data.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Below are some suggestions.

      (1) Sentences L47 & L48 "Infections with antibiotic-resistant pathogens, especially carbapenemase-producing Enterobacteriaceae, represent an impending catastrophe of a return to the pre-antibiotic era" - this is slightly exaggerated! I also wonder if we need to use Enterobacterales instead of Enterobacteriaceae.

      The sentences in L47 & L48 have been changed. We googled the “carbapenemase-producing Enterobacteriaceae” and found it is a high-frequency word in numerous reports.

      (2) L48. The drying up of the antibiotic discovery pipeline is NOT necessarily the reason to use colistin as a drug of last resort!

      The sentence has been revised.

      (3) The manuscript requires extensive English editing but has merit based on the strong compilation of data.

      We have optimized and revised the writing of the whole article.

      (4) I suggest the authors have some data on the cytotoxicity of AS alone, colistin alone, and both of them against eucaryotic cells (Caco-) and if possible determine IS (index selectivity). This additional experiment will strengthen the quality of the manuscript. The authors must also explain how to put such tri-therapy into practice.

      The development of novel pharmaceutical dosage forms, pharmacokinetic, pharmacodynamic and safety analysis of the triple combination will be further conducted in our next study to provide a theoretical basis for the next clinical drug use. The discussion of potential toxicity of AS, colistin, EDTA and the triple combination have been added in line 318 to 337.

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      Reply to the reviewers

      We thank the reviews for their thorough assessment of our manuscript and their constructive suggestions for further improvement. We are pleased that the reviewers recognise that “this work represents an important and substantive contribution” to the field of genome organization and gene transcription.

      Reviewer 1

      1) Does the CTCF degron substantially remove CTCF from the Mnx1/Shh TAD border? In prior AID-CTCF degron studies a considerable fraction of cohesin dependent TAD borders are retained upon CTCF removal. Moreover, CTCF sites at these retained borders still have clear ChIP-seq peaks - even though the protein is >95% depleted and scarcely detectable by western. Thus, while I suspect that the authors are correct that the shorter distance of the 35 kb border deletion contributes substantially to the increased crosstalk between the Mnx1 and Shh-enhancers, I suspect part of the reason for a lack of a similar effect in the CTCF degron is due to the known challenges in removing CTCF from this border. To argue that the border but not the CTCF is important, I think it would be helpful to show the CTCF signal is sufficiently lost in the degron by ChIP-seq and/or show that this TAD border has been lost by Hi-C. Alternatively, the authors could tone down this claim to something more conservative, as I did not find it to be presented as a key conclusion of the paper as a whole.

      We used the CTCF-AID mESC line published by Nora et al (2017). In our previous manuscript (Kane et al., 2022) we presented the published Hi-C and CTCF-ChIP-seq data from these cells at the Shh TAD (Fig 2c of Kane et al) – reproduced below for the reviewer’s benefit. This shows the loss of insulation at the Shh/Mnx1 TAD boundary when CTCF is degraded, and the loss of CTCF ChIP-seq signal at this boundary.

      • *

      2) In my opinion, the authors' description of existing data for the importance of TAD borders in enhancer promoter regulation is not described in a sufficiently balanced and complete manner, and overall impression given by the text is that CTCF marked borders have little serious evidence for a role in developmental enhancer specificity and are maybe a cancer thing. This is doubly unfortunate, as it undermines the impact of the authors work in expanding our view of what TAD borders are in a regulatory sense, as well as presents an unbalanced view of work in the field. This is of course easily corrected. In particular, I recommend the following revisions: It is " depletion of CTCF has only a small effect on transcription in cell culture (Nora et al., 2017; Hsieh et al., 2022)." It should be clarified that there is only a small *acute * effect on transcription (in the first 6-12 hours), which may tell us more about the timescale at which promoters sample, integrate and respond to changes in their enhancer environment than about the roles of CTCF particularly. Notably, this degradation is *lethal*, it results in massive changes in transcription after 4 days, and I suspect the authors agree that this lethal affect arises from CTCF's role in transcription regulation (if you remove some key cytoskeletal protein or metabolic enzyme the primary cause of cell death is not transcriptional, but almost all the evidence for CTCF's vital role in the cell is linked in one way or another to transcription).

      As suggested by the reviewer we have inserted the word “acute” into that sentence.

      The discussion of TAD border deletions is more one-sided than ideal. I appreciate the discussion is usually even more unbalanced when presenting the opposite view in the literature - many works only cite the examples where border deletion does lead to ectopic expression and phenotypes. The current text presented a subset of these border deletion data in such a way as to give me the impression the authors are deeply skeptical that CTCF plays a role as an insulator of E-P interactions in a developmental context (rather than just as a weird cancer thing). For example: Pennacchio's lab has analyzed a series of TAD border deletions with more examples of both lethal effects and effects with no apparent phenotype 3

      I appreciate that Bickmore and colleagues found quite phenotypically normal mice upon deletion of CTCF sites from Shh, but it might be balanced to still reference the work from Uishiki et al that indicate in humans the CTCF site does play a role in Shh - ZRS communication. As the authors are doubtless aware, Andrey and colleagues show a CTCF dependent enhancement of a sensitized ZRS enhancer. Zuin et al. in an elegant experiment in which an enhancer is mobilized to different distances away from its promoter using transposon induction, reported a complete lack of detection of enhancers mobilizing outside the TAD to activate gene expression. A balanced presentation of the data on CTCF role might include some discussion of the above. In light of these earlier works, the findings the authors report about border bypass are all the more surprising.

      • *

      We thank the reviewer for highlighting some of these studies, especially for drawing our attention to the interesting recent preprint from Chakraborty et al. (doi.org/10.1101/2024.08.03.606480), which we now discuss in the revised manuscript. * As suggested by the reviewer, we now also cite Ushiki et al., 2021 in the Introduction in the context of CTCF-associated phenotypes, rather than just in the Discussion as in the original submission. We already cited the work of Andrey and colleagues (Paliou et al). However, we chose not to cite the Pennacchio study, because the deletions used were large – all >10kb and some as large as 80kb. Therefore, we consider it highly likely that other regulatory sequences beyond CTCF sites themselves may have been deleted, complicating conclusions drawn about the function of the TAD boundaries per se. We have also chosen to focus our discussion on studies of enhancers in their native genomic locus, and predominantly in vivo analyses, rather than ectopic enhancer integrations (such as Zuin et al) in cell lines.*

      4) By contrast, direct evidence for cross TAD interactions at endogenous loci has not to my knowledge been shown as clearly as described in the current manuscript. Recent work from Rocha and colleagues showed evidence that some enhancers upstream of Sox2 can pass ectopically induced boundaries. While recent work has described examples of 'TAD border bypass' at endogenous loci (e.g. for Pitx1 8, Hoxa regulation 9), these reports really just expand the view of regulatory boundaries rather than provide evidence against it. They invoke a 3D stacking of boundaries that allows boundary proximal enhancers and promoters to stack with (and so bypass) an intervening TAD boundary. Notably, in this view enhancers and promoters that lie away from the border of their respective TADs are still separate, and indeed intervening genes between distal enhancers for Pitx1 and Hoxa appear to follow these rules.2 Mnx1 and the Shh enhancers by contrast do not appear to be an example of border stacking. Given that Sox2 at least is also a TAD border, and the position of the bypassing enhancers is not precisely known in the work from Rocha, it is possible that that case is also an example of boundary stacking, which appears less likely in the case of Mnx1 (which does not appear to be at CTCF marked border, at least in mESCs).

      • *

      We thank the reviewer for highlighting some of these studies. We had already discussed the study from Rocha and colleagues (Chakraborty et al., 2023) and we had discussed the boundary stacking paper from Hung et al, (2024). However, based on the reviewer’s comment we now include a specific discussion about TAD boundary stacking and boundary proximal enhancer bypass, noting that Mnx1 is not close to a TAD boundary. This will become even more relevant in our planned revised manuscript where we will investigate possible Mnx1 activation by Shh enhancers (SBE2/3) located even further away from the Shh/Mnx1 TAD boundary.

      Statistics: Some of the bar graphs quantifying the %-expressing cells do not obviously have associated n-values, as are some of the violin plots of the distances. I think all these bar graphs could also benefit from adding error bars (e.g. by bootstrapping from the sampled population). This will help the reader more easily appreciate how sampling error and sample size affect the variation seen in the plots.

      We will add the n-values to all graphs. Regarding error bars, we think that showing the data from the two biological replicate separately is a better way to show the data reproducibility to the reader, than using boostrapping to estimate error bars.

      Figures 2 and 3: I would have preferred the authors zoom in more on the FISH spots to help the reader appreciate the proximity. I do appreciate also seeing a field of more than 1 cell (to give some sense of the variability), but these images mostly have only 1 spot pair per panel, which is exceedingly small as they contain parts of more than 1 nucleus. There is also unnecessary white space in this figure that could have been used to show zoom in panels.

      The same applies to the image panels in Figure 3 as for figure 2 - there is considerable unused whitespace, the image panels capture mostly a single nucleus and its pattern of DAPI dense heterochromatin (which isn't particularly relevant to the narrative) while the fluorescent spots that are the focus of the narrative are quite small. It is nice to have an example of the cell to see that this isn't just random background (that there is just one spot per cell) - in that sense though it's equally helpful to show its not just 1 cell in the field that has the signal-to-noise (SNR) shown. For this figure and the panels in figure 2, I'd recommend showing a zoom out showing ~3 nuclei with transcription foci (at least in the regions where the % transcribing is >60% it should be fine to have adjacent nuclei transcribing, for those where it is 10%, 1 of 3 nuclei transcribing in the image selected would also help get the sense of the data). These zoom out images would also give a sense of the SNR in the image, and then a zoom in where the FISH spots are sizable would make it easier to see the neighboring transcripts. Extended Data Fig 3 does a better job showing the context of the limb and then zooming in to an image where the RNA spots are appreciable. It looks like the resolution of the zoom in is lower, such that zooming in further on the spots in this data may not enhance the image.

      • *

      In response to the reviewer’s comment, we will present zoomed-out and zoomed-in images as suggested.

      1. Figure 3 - DNA FISH It would be helpful to include a diagram indicated where the DNA FISH probes are located on the genome and their size in kb as an inset in the figure.

      2. *

      We will indicate the locations of DNA-FISH probes in a revised version of Figure 1a. Probe sizes are listed in the supplementary tables. We have now made this clearer in the legend to Figure 3.

      • *

      Reviewer 2

      The authors claim that co-expression of Mnx1 and Shh in the foregut and lung buds is also driven by boundary crossing contacts with the MACS1 enhancer. However, the effect of the boundary deletion on the co-transcription of Shh and Mnx1 is only showed for the ZPA. In this sense I find potentially misleading the statement of the authors in the following paragraph: "In the ZPA, the foregut, and the lung buds, the majority of Mnx1 RNA-FISH signals are at alleles that show simultaneous signal for Shh nascent transcript from the same allele (closely apposed signals) (Fig. 2a, b and Extended Data Fig. 2a). In del 35 embryos, an even higher proportion of Mnx1 transcribing alleles also transcribe Shh (Fig. 2b,Extended Data Fig. 2a, Extended Data Table 3.). These data suggest that both the ZRS and MACS1 enhancers are able to simultaneously activate transcription at two gene loci on the same chromosome". In my opinion this phrasing implicitly extends the increase in Mnx1-Shh co-expressing nuclei observed in the ZPA of 35 del embryos to the expression of these two genes in the foregut and lung buds (driven by the MACS1 enhancer) while this effect has not been specifically addressed. In a previous work, the authors showed that boundary deletion does not impact Mnx1 expression in the foregut and lungs. It would be important to clarify whether more precise analysis in this study have led to different conclusions or, alternatively, appropriately discuss the results. Ideally the authors should analyse the effect of the 35 del allele in the foregut / lung buds or rephrase the statement about the sharing of the MACS1 enhancer. * *

      The reviewer is correct that in our previous publication (Williamson et al., 2019) we did not detect Mnx1 expression in the lungs of 35kb del embryos. However, we only examined this by in situ hybridisation so we probably lacked the sensitivity to detect weak Mnx1 expression. In response to the reviewer’s comments, we now propose to do RNA FISH for transcription at Mnx1 in other tissues of 35kb del embryos.

      The authors use the quantifications of nuclei co-expressing Mnx1 and Shh from the same allele as an indicator of simultaneous transcription of the two genes by the sharing of the enhancer as opposed to a model of alternate transcriptional bursts. However, I am concerned that the time scale at which looping and transcriptional bursts occur is at odds with the detection of nascent transcription in FISH experiments, thus not excluding that shifting of the enhancer from one promoter to the other could still result in detection of nascent RNA of the two genes in the same allele. In any case, following the argumentation of the authors, the fraction of nuclei expressing Mnx1 alone does not appear to be significantly different from those expressing Mnx1 and Shh, and the increase of Mnx1 expressing nuclei upon boundary deletion seem proportionally similar to the increase of Mnx1+/Shh+ nuclei. In my opinion, this makes it difficult to interpret the detection of Mnx1 alone or both Mnx1-Shh expression as a reflection of alternate looping and transcriptional burst from enhancer sharing. Determining whether the two promoters compete for the interaction with the enhancer or share it would require estimate whether in the 35 del homozygote embryos Shh expression is reduced compared to wts, as a result of the increased interaction of the ZRS with the enhancer. The authors claim that there are no differences in the % of cells expressing Shh upon boundary deletion but in my opinion measurement is not sufficient to estimate a change in transcriptional rate (frequency of bursting). Nascent mRNA level detection in single cells would allow to better asses competition or concomitant activation of the two gene. Not being an expert in the RAN FISH technique it is not clear to me whether fluorescence intensity could be used as an estimator of transcription. From the images of the authors, in some cases it seems that expression of Shh alone is higher than when both Shh and Mnx1 are transcribed from the same allele (Fig. 2a, left panel, Fig 2c left vs right panel. However, in other cases an opposite trend can be observed (Mnx1 intensity in Fig2a central vs right panel). Thus, a single nuclei PCR or RNAseq approach may be more suited for this assessment.

      • *

      We respectfully disagree with the reviewer. We argue that nascent RNA FISH, using probe pools that for the most part detect the introns of Shh and Mnx1, is a better measure of transcription bursting/frequency (on or off) than probe signal intensity and therefore is a measurement of transcription rate. Single nuclei PCR or RNAseq would not assay nascent transcription and would not distinguish between alleles.

      Minor comments: 3. In the mESC model overexpressing the tZRS-VP64 construct, Shh and Mnx1 seem to be transcribed at similar rates compared to what observed in vivo (where only a minor fraction of Shh+ cells express Mnx1). Thus, despite the fact that TAD boundary deletion increases Mnx1, but not Shh, expression, the ZRS activity seems to more easily overcome the border in this context than in vivo. Could the authors comment on this interesting observation? May it relate to the insulation score of TAD boundaries in the mESCs compared to in vivo? Alternatively, could it reflect that combinatorial TF binding to an enhancer contribute to its directionality?

      • *

      *These are interesting speculations by the reviewer, but we would argue that it is hard to compare in vivo and in vitro experiments. For example, in the limb bud, the ZPA region where the ZRS is active cannot be distinguished morphologically from the surrounding mesenchymal cells, therefore it is likely that some nuclei that are just outside the ZPA may be included in the analysis. *

      Overall, figure organization and clarity could be improved. For example, enlargement of RNA fish images in Fig. 1 could be enlarged (to the same size than the broad view image) and RNA FISH signal could be highlighted with arrowheads. Panel distribution could also be optimized.

      • *

      We will try to clarify these figures – see also response to reviewer 1 (point 6).

      • *

      Reviewer 3

      There are a couple of claims and conclusions that are not fully supported by the data, and which I think could be resolved by rephrasing them and/or qualify them as preliminary or speculative. The authors often indicate co-expression as suggestive of co-regulation by a single enhancer, when in most cases this is not formally shown; such suggestion remains one among other possibilities. For instance, co-expression of Shh and Mnx1 in the developing bud is attributed to the ZRS enhancer, co-expression of Shh and Mnx1 in the foregut is attributed to MACS1 enhancer. Do the authors have any evidence that when deleting these enhancers, Mnx1 expression is abolished (or reduced) in the respective tissues?

      If not, I think the following sentences need revision, because causality is implied by the way it is written but it is not formally shown (and the data could suggest other options too):

      "However, we have previously identified that ZRS can also drive low level expression of Mnx1, located 150kb away in the adjacent TAD, in the developing limb bud (Williamson et al., 2019)." No genetic evidence is provided in Williamson et al. 2019

      i) It is true that in Williamson et al., we did not provide genetic evidence that ZRS is the enhancer responsible for Mnx1 expression in the limb bud ZPA. However, there is no other known enhancer in biology with activity specific to the ZPA, and when the ZRS is deleted the ZPA no longer functions as a signaling centre for the limb bud. As a compromise, we have rephrased the indicated text to “However, we have previously identified that ZRS also appears to be able to drive low level expression of Mnx1, located 150kb away in the adjacent TAD, in the ZPA of the developing limb bud”.

      "However, we also detect nascent transcription from Mnx1 in the Shh expressing portions of the developing ventral foregut and the lung bud of E10.5 embryos, an activity that is driven by the Shh MACS1 enhancer, located a further 100kb into the Shh TAD from ZRS (Sagai et al., 2017) and therefore able to induce transcription at Mnx1 across a TAD boundary from a distance of >260 kb (Fig. 1a)."

      ii) We have modified the text to now read “However, we also detect nascent transcription from Mnx1 in the Shh expressing portions of the developing ventral foregut and the lung bud of E10.5 embryos, an activity that is likely to bedriven by the Shh MACS1 enhancer, located a further 100kb into the Shh TAD from ZRS”.

      "These data suggest that both the ZRS and MACS1 enhancers are able to simultaneously activate transcription at two gene loci on the same chromosome."

      iii) We have modified this statement to now read that these enhancers “may be able to simultaneously activate transcription at two gene loci on the same chromosome”.

      "This is the first report of two endogenous mammalian genes transcribed simultaneously under the control of the same enhancer" (can the authors really claim this without genetic evidence, i.e., deleting the enhancer? Isn't that the golden standard in the field?).

      iv) We stand by this claim, because we have been able to provide evidence in support of our observations in tissues, by using synthetic enhancer activation in cell culture where we can be absolutely be sure what the enhancer responsible for activation is.

      "Therefore, the Shh ZRS enhancer can simultaneously activate transcription at two genes and across an intact, but porous, TAD boundary. See response (iv) above

      "This is a consequence of ZRS-driven activation, not Mnx1 transcription per se."

      v) We stand by this claim.

      The mathematical model, even if simple, is very poorly described. In the results section, it is not easy to understand what the model takes into account, etc; it would be important for non-experts to understand as well what is at stake. In the methods section, it does not seem to be properly described; it is only stated "The association between the transcription of Shh and Mnx1 regulated by the same enhancer was done by linear modelling with binomial link function." Would this be enough to recreate / reproduce the same model? I am not a mathematician, but I suspect more details would be needed. * *

      *We apologize if our approach was not clear. We used logistic regression not a mathematical model. We have now expanded the relevant Methods section to now read: *

      “To test whether or not there is a tendency of coexpression between two loci on the same chromatid, only nuclei with exactly one signal of each locus are informative. For these nuclei, we scored how many had expression in cis and how many in trans. To assess whether there was chromatid-specific coexpression, we tested statistically whether there was an excess of nuclei showing expression in cis. We did this using logistic regression, a form of generalized linear regression model. More specifically, we tested, for each model, whether the model intercept was significantly different from zero by using the z-scaled test statistic returned by these models and converting it to a p-value.”

      The authors claim that an enhancer working exclusively on one gene at a time would lead to a preference in individual expression - is this really the case? Could the authors show the expected scenarios for [one enhancer - two common targets] versus [two enhancers - two independent targets] and how this compares to the data?

      • *

      Our statistical analysis is restricted to the scenario of one enhancer acting on two genes (either simultaneously, or alternately). We do not test a two enhancers two target genes scenario because it is not relevant to our experimental analyses using synthetic activation of a single enhancer (with tZRS-Vp64, Extended Data Table 4).

      1. The results obtained with the VP64 activation (activation of ZRS leads to increased expression of Mnx1) are used by the authors as another piece of evidence that ZRS controls Mnx1 - but could VP64 activation be inducing chromatin opening / enhanced accessibility and therefore increased expression across the TAD boundary? I am not sure the authors need to test this, but they should at least acknowledge other possibilities (in relation to point 1).

      *We have previously shown (Benabdallah et al., 2019) that tal-VP64 activators alter chromatin structure (H3K27ac) in the Shh TAD only locally at the site of binding and at the Shh gene, and that this does not spread more generally. We have clarified this in the revised text. We also note that the effect of both the 35kb deletion and cohesin degradation on Mnx1 activation from the tZRSVp64 activator would not be consistent with a model of general chromatin opening/accessibility. The same argument applies to the DNA-FISH experiment (Fig 3) showing Mnx1 activation in the limb bud (ZPA) occurs specifically in the context of a compact chromatin conformation. *

      "In the nuclei of pre-motor neurons, where Mnx1 expression is driven from its own proximal enhancers (Fig. 1a), Mnx-ZRS and Mnx1-Shh distances are not different between Mnx1 expressing and non-expressing alleles." The authors use this as an argument to claim that Mnx1 expression per se does not explain the distance differences observed in the limb bud - but can such comparisons of expression and distances between loci be made between different cell types? Is there enough evidence for this to be a valid assumption? If not, then the assumption should be explicitly presented.

      • *

      We believe that the reviewer is confused here. We are not suggesting that Mnx1 expression per se doesn’t explain the distance differences in the limb bud, rather that these distance differences in the limb bud associated with Mnx1 transcription do not occur in the pre-motor neurons where activation is not dependent on distal enhancers, particularly in the Shh TAD.

      1. In Fig. 3b the authors show that shorter distances between the loci (Mnx1, Shh, ZRS) were associated with simultaneous transcription at Mnx1 and Shh, implying throughout that this would be associated with common activation by ZRS; but the shorter distances between the three loci are also associated with Mnx1 transcription alone. How is this explained?

      2. *

      *This is explained by the configuration of the Shh TAD and the general spatial proximity of Shh-ZRS in both expressing and non-expressing tissues due to the CTCF-mediated loop and that is apparent in Hi-C heat maps. *

      1. The text could be revised to look out for "expression levels" versus "expression frequency" - in several instances the authors mention expression "levels" when they are referring to % of cells expressing a given gene, which would thus be more appropriate called "expression frequency"?

      The reviewer makes an important point. In the revised manuscript we have removed all mention of “expression levels” and have replaced these with “ frequency”.

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      Referee #3

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      Summary:

      Williamson et al. set out to investigate in further detail the previously described co-expression of Shh and Mnx1 in the same cells of the developing mouse embryo (Williamson et al. 2019). The authors suspect that this co-expression is caused by the activity of a single enhancer (ZRS), which is intriguing because Shh and Mnx1 lie in adjacent TADs, i.e., there is a TAD boundary in between them, which in principle would prevent ZRS (within the same TAD as Shh) from activating Mnx1 expression. Using RNA-FISH in mouse embryo sections, the authors first confirmed the co-expression of Shh and Mnx1 in the developing bud, which was not observed in other tissues where Shh and Mnx1 are normally expressed (e.g., neural tube) - further suggesting the involvement of the limb-specific ZRS enhancer. Using mouse embryos harbouring a 35kb-deletion encompassing the TAD boundary between Shh and Mnx1, the authors observed by RNA-FISH that Mnx1 was more frequently expressed in the mutant limb buds, in accordance to their previous results via RT-qPCR (Williamson et al. 2019). Based on RNA FISH and a mathematical model, the authors conclude that Shh and Mnx1 are frequently expressed from the same allele, also supporting the idea of common cis-regulation. Using a TALE-based system in mESC, the authors induce specific recruitment of VP64 to ZRS and observe increased expression for both Shh and Mnx1. This effect was enhanced for Mnx1 (but not for Shh) when the TAD boundary was missing (in the context of the 35kb-deletion). Using DNA-FISH following RNA-FISH on the same samples, the authors were then able to correlate transcriptional states with distances between the loci. This analysis led them to show that shorter distances between the loci (Mnx1, Shh, ZRS) were associated with simultaneous transcription at Mnx1 and Shh (but also with Mnx1 transcription alone). Finally, the authors combine their synthetic recruitment of VP64 to ZRS with protein-degron systems for CTCF and cohesin. These investigations showed that CTCF degradation did not impact the VP64-induced expression of Shh nor of Mnx1. In contrast, acute depletion of cohesin led to impaired VP64-induced expression of both Shh nor of Mnx1. Using DNA FISH, the authors showed that this was correlated with increased Mnx1-ZRS and Shh-ZRS distances. Overall, the authors conclude that their data support a model by which ZRS regulates Mnx1 across a TAD boundary and in a cohesin-dependent manner.

      Major comments:

      1. There are a couple of claims and conclusions that are not fully supported by the data, and which I think could be resolved by rephrasing them and/or qualify them as preliminary or speculative. The authors often indicate co-expression as suggestive of co-regulation by a single enhancer, when in most cases this is not formally shown; such suggestion remains one among other possibilities. For instance, co-expression of Shh and Mnx1 in the developing bud is attributed to the ZRS enhancer, co-expression of Shh and Mnx1 in the foregut is attributed to MACS1 enhancer. Do the authors have any evidence that when deleting these enhancers, Mnx1 expression is abolished (or reduced) in the respective tissues?

      If not, I think the following sentences need revision, because causality is implied by the way it is written but it is not formally shown (and the data could suggest other options too):

      "However, we have previously identified that ZRS can also drive low level expression of Mnx1, located 150kb away in the adjacent TAD, in the developing limb bud (Williamson et al., 2019)." No genetic evidence is provided in Williamson et al. 2019

      "However, we also detect nascent transcription from Mnx1 in the Shh expressing portions of the developing ventral foregut and the lung bud of E10.5 embryos, an activity that is driven by the Shh MACS1 enhancer, located a further 100kb into the Shh TAD from ZRS (Sagai et al., 2017) and therefore able to induce transcription at Mnx1 across a TAD boundary from a distance of >260 kb (Fig. 1a)."

      "These data suggest that both the ZRS and MACS1 enhancers are able to simultaneously activate transcription at two gene loci on the same chromosome."

      "This is the first report of two endogenous mammalian genes transcribed simultaneously under the control of the same enhancer" (can the authors really claim this without genetic evidence, i.e., deleting the enhancer? Isn't that the golden standard in the field?)

      "Therefore, the Shh ZRS enhancer can simultaneously activate transcription at two genes and across an intact, but porous, TAD boundary.

      "This is a consequence of ZRS-driven activation, not Mnx1 transcription per se." 2. The mathematical model, even if simple, is very poorly described. In the results section, it is not easy to understand what the model takes into account, etc; it would be important for non-experts to understand as well what is at stake. In the methods section, it does not seem to be properly described; it is only stated "The association between the transcription of Shh and Mnx1 regulated by the same enhancer was done by linear modelling with binomial link function." Would this be enough to recreate / reproduce the same model? I am not a mathematician, but I suspect more details would be needed. 3. The authors claim that an enhancer working exclusively on one gene at a time would lead to a preference in individual expression - is this really the case? Could the authors show the expected scenarios for [one enhancer - two common targets] versus [two enhancers - two independent targets] and how this compares to the data? 4. The results obtained with the VP64 activation (activation of ZRS leads to increased expression of Mnx1) are used by the authors as another piece of evidence that ZRS controls Mnx1 - but could VP64 activation be inducing chromatin opening / enhanced accessibility and therefore increased expression across the TAD boundary? I am not sure the authors need to test this, but they should at least acknowledge other possibilities (in relation to point 1) 5. "In the nuclei of pre-motor neurons, where Mnx1 expression is driven from its own proximal enhancers (Fig. 1a), Mnx-ZRS and Mnx1-Shh distances are not different between Mnx1 expressing and non-expressing alleles." The authors use this as an argument to claim that Mnx1 expression per se does not explain the distance differences observed in the limb bud - but can such comparisons of expression and distances between loci be made between different cell types? Is there enough evidence for this to be a valid assumption? If not, then the assumption should be explicitly presented. 5.1/ In Fig. 3b the authors show that shorter distances between the loci (Mnx1, Shh, ZRS) were associated with simultaneous transcription at Mnx1 and Shh, implying throughout that this would be associated with common activation by ZRS; but the shorter distances between the three loci are also associated with Mnx1 transcription alone. How is this explained? 6. The text could be revised to look out for "expression levels" versus "expression frequency" - in several instances the authors mention expression "levels" when they are referring to % of cells expressing a given gene, which would thus be more appropriate called "expression frequency"?

      Otherwise, I find the experimental and analytical work very solid.

      Minor comments:

      1. The authors claim that their study "is the first report of two endogenous mammalian genes transcribed simultaneously under the control of the same enhancer" - despite the fact that this claim is not formally demonstrated given the absence of genetic data (as mentioned above), it is still an intriguing idea that to date no such case has been formally demonstrated in mammals. I think the authors could emphasise this more.
      2. Cis-regulation across TAD borders has been suggested/demonstrated before, for both enhancers (two examples cited by the authors) and other types of elements (e.g., silencers). The authors might want to consider mentioning/discussing other previous studies that have either also suggested that TAD boundaries are not "absolute barriers" and/or found cis-regulatory elements working across TAD boundaries, such as those from the Andrey/Mundlos lab (Kragesteen et al. 2020), Heard lab (Galupa et al. 2020 and 2022), Ren lab (Diao et al. 2017), Rinn lab (Groff et al. 2018), Spitz lab (Tsujimura et al. 2015); the last one is cited by the authors but not in the context of inter-TAD communication. Some of these have been recently reviewed in Szalay et al. 2024 (PMID: 39592879).
      3. The authors state that "Conventional enhancer-promoter looping models predict that transcriptional bursts from two genes under the control of the same enhancer should not be coincident." Could the authors provide references for this statement, or explain this further?

      Significance

      This study set out to understand whether co-expression of Shh and Mnx1 in the same cells of the developing mouse embryo was due to regulation by a common enhancer (ZRS), located across a TAD boundary from Mnx1, which would strengthen a growing body of studies showing that TAD boundaries are not as impermeable as once thought and postulated. Despite lacking formal genetic evidence to fully support their hypothesis, this study will nevertheless be an important addition to the field of transcriptional regulation and 3D chromosome structure and to its specialized audience. My field of expertise: transcriptional regulation and 3D chromosome structure.

    3. Note: This preprint has been reviewed by subject experts for Review Commons. Content has not been altered except for formatting.

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      Referee #1

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      Summary and significance in the context of the field:

      In this work, the authors conduct a detailed investigation of the 'ectopic'/'bystander' activation of the gene Mnx1 by enhancers of Shh, located in the neighboring TAD. TAD borders have been shown in a number of works to contribute to the remarkable specificity of enhancer-promoter choice, and the current dogma in the field is to view them as perfect boundaries to enhancer-promoter interaction. Notably, this current dogma also highlights a conundrum in our understanding of gene regulation, as available 3D genome data from both sequencing and microscopy show that TAD borders are regions of abrupt decrease in 3D proximity, but far from perfect borders, with numerous cross-TAD interactions detected by Hi-C and its variants and by single-cell microscopy (albeit fewer than the local intra-TAD interactions).

      The authors show convincing data that Mnx1 indeed responds transcriptionally to several Shh-enhancers located over 100 kb distal and on the wrong side of the TAD boundary. The data come from developing mouse embryos, span several tissues, and include key controls for specificity of the method. This provides convincing data with which to challenge the currently widely accepted view of as TADs a significant boundary, complimenting the few examples that indicate that such regulation is possible in special cases (see further discussion in 2b below). I believe this work represents an important and substantive contribution to the field and should ultimately be published, after a few notable issues have been addressed.

      Major comments:

      Does the CTCF degron substantially remove CTCF from the Mnx1/Shh TAD border?<br /> In prior AID-CTCF degron studies 1,2, a considerable fraction of cohesin dependent TAD borders are retained upon CTCF removal. Moreover, CTCF sites at these retained borders still have clear ChIP-seq peaks - even though the protein is >95% depleted and scarcely detectable by western. Thus, while I suspect that the authors are correct that the shorter distance of the 35 kb border deletion contributes substantially to the increased crosstalk between the Mnx1 and Shh-enhancers, I suspect part of the reason for a lack of a similar effect in the CTCF degron is due to the known challenges in removing CTCF from this border. To argue that the border but not the CTCF is important, I think it would be helpful to show the CTCF signal is sufficiently lost in the degron by ChIP-seq and/or show that this TAD border has been lost by Hi-C. Alternatively, the authors could tone down this claim to something more conservative, as I did not find it to be presented as a key conclusion of the paper as a whole.

      Minor comments:

      I believe the manuscript could be strengthened by some textual revisions of the introduction: 2a) In particular, in my opinion, the authors' description of existing data for the importance of TAD borders in enhancer promoter regulation is not described in a sufficiently balanced and complete manner, and overall impression given by the text is that CTCF marked borders have little serious evidence for a role in developmental enhancer specificity and are maybe a cancer thing. This is doubly unfortunate, as it undermines the impact of the authors work in expanding our view of what TAD borders are in a regulatory sense, as well as presents an unbalanced view of work in the field. This is of course easily corrected. In particular I recommend the following revisions:

      It is " depletion of CTCF has only a small effect on transcription in cell culture (Nora et al., 2017; Hsieh et al., 2022)." It should be clarified that there is only a small acute * effect on transcription (in the first 6-12 hours), which may tell us more about the timescale at which promoters sample, integrate and respond to changes in their enhancer environment than about the roles of CTCF particularly. Notably, this degradation is lethal*, it results in massive changes in transcription after 4 days, and I suspect the authors agree that this lethal affect arises from CTCF's role in transcription regulation (if you remove some key cytoskeletal protein or metabolic enzyme the primary cause of cell death is not transcriptional, but almost all the evidence for CTCF's vital role in the cell is linked in one way or another to transcription). The discussion of TAD border deletions is more one-sided than ideal. I appreciate the discussion is usually even more unbalanced when presenting the opposite view in the literature - many works only cite the examples where border deletion does lead to ectopic expression and phenotypes. The current text presented a subset of these border deletion data in such a way as to give me the impression the authors are deeply skeptical that CTCF plays a role as an insulator of E-P interactions in a developmental context (rather than just as a weird cancer thing). For example:

      Pennacchio's lab has analyzed a series of TAD border deletions with more examples of both lethal effects and effects with no apparent phenotype 3

      Deletion of TAD borders upstream of the FGF3/4/15 locus in mouse is embryonic lethal (particularly the border Kim et al label TB1 and didn't delete in their cancer model). https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2024.08.03.606480v1

      I appreciate that Bickmore and colleagues found quite phenotypically normal mice upon deletion of CTCF sites from Shh, but it might be balanced to still reference the work from Uishiki et al that indicate in humans the CTCF site does play a role in Shh - ZRS communication: 4

      As the authors are doubtless aware, Andrey and colleagues show a CTCF dependent enhancement of a sensitized ZRS enhancer. 5

      Zuin et al. in an elegant experiment in which an enhancer is mobilized to different distances away from its promoter using transposon induction, reported a complete lack of detection of enhancers mobilizing outside the TAD to activate gene expression 6.

      A balanced presentation of the data on CTCF role might include some discussion of the above. In light of these earlier works, the findings the authors report about border bypass are all the more surprising.

      2b) By contrast, direct evidence for cross TAD interactions at endogenous loci has not to my knowledge been shown as clearly as described in the current manuscript.

      Recent work from Rocha and colleagues 7 showed evidence that some enhancers upstream of Sox2 can pass ectopically induced boundaries. While recent work has described examples of 'TAD border bypass' at endogenous loci (e.g. for Pitx1 8, Hoxa regulation 9), these reports really just expand the view of regulatory boundaries rather than provide evidence against it. They invoke a 3D stacking of boundaries that allows boundary proximal enhancers and promoters to stack with (and so bypass) an intervening TAD boundary. Notably, in this view enhancers and promoters that lie away from the border of their respective TADs are still separate, and indeed intervening genes between distal enhancers for Pitx1 and Hoxa appear to follow these rules.2 Mnx1 and the Shh enhancers by contrast do not appear to be an example of border stacking. Given that Sox2 at least is also a TAD border, and the position of the bypassing enhancers is not precisely known in the work from Rocha, it is possible that that case is also an example of boundary stacking, which appears less likely in the case of Mnx1 (which does not appear to be at CTCF marked border, at least in mESCs).

      Statistics

      Some of the bar graphs quantifying the %-expressing cells do not obviously have associated n-values, as are some of the violin plots of the distances. I think all these bar graphs could also benefit from adding errorbars (e.g. by bootstrapping from the sampled population). This will help the reader more easily appreciate how sampling error and sample size affect the variation seen in the plots.

      Recommendations for improving the figures

      Figure 2

      I would have preferred the authors zoom in more on the FISH spots to help the reader appreciate the proximity. I do appreciate also seeing a field of more than 1 cell (to give some sense of the variability), but these images mostly have only 1 spot pair per panel, which is exceedingly small as they contain parts of more than 1 nucleus. There is also unnecessary white space in this figure that could have been used to show zoom in panels.

      Figure 3 -image panels

      The same applies to the image panels in this figure as for figure 2 - there is considerable unused whitespace, the image panels capture mostly a single nucleus and its pattern of DAPI dense heterochromatin (which isn't particularly relevant to the narrative) while the fluorescent spots that are the focus of the narrative are quite small. It is nice to have an example of the cell to see that this isn't just random background (that there is just one spot per cell) - in that sense though it's equally helpful to show its not just 1 cell in the field that has the signal-to-noise (SNR) shown.<br /> For this figure and the panels in figure 2, I'd recommend showing a zoom out showing ~3 nuclei with transcription foci (at least in the regions where the % transcribing is >60% it should be fine to have adjacent nuclei transcribing, for those where it is 10%, 1 of 3 nuclei transcribing in the image selected would also help get the sense of the data). These zoom out images would also give a sense of the SNR in the image, and then a zoom in where the FISH spots are sizable would make it easier to see the neighboring transcripts. Extended Data Fig 3 does a better job showing the context of the limb and then zooming in to an image where the RNA spots are appreciable. It looks like the resolution of the zoom in is lower, such that zooming in further on the spots in this data may not enhance the image.

      Figure 3 - DNA FISH

      It would be helpful to include a diagram indicated where the DNA FISH probes are located on the genome and their size in kb as an inset in the figure.

      References cited above

      1. Nora, E. P., Goloborodko, A., Valton, A.-L., Gibcus, J. H., Uebersohn, A., Abdennur, N., Dekker, J., Mirny, L. A. & Bruneau, B. G. Targeted Degradation of CTCF Decouples Local Insulation of Chromosome Domains from Genomic Compartmentalization. Cell 169, 930-944.e22 (2017).
      2. Kubo, N., Ishii, H., Gorkin, D., Meitinger, F., Xiong, X., Fang, R., Liu, T., Ye, Z., Li, B., Dixon, J., Desai, A., Zhao, H. & Ren, B. Preservation of Chromatin Organization after Acute Loss of CTCF in Mouse Embryonic Stem Cells. bioRxiv 118737 (2017).
      3. Rajderkar, S., Barozzi, I., Zhu, Y., Hu, R., Zhang, Y., Li, B., Alcaina Caro, A., Fukuda-Yuzawa, Y., Kelman, G., Akeza, A., Blow, M. J., Pham, Q., Harrington, A. N., Godoy, J., Meky, E. M., von Maydell, K., Hunter, R. D., Akiyama, J. A., Novak, C. S., Plajzer-Frick, I., Afzal, V., Tran, S., Lopez-Rios, J., Talkowski, M. E., Lloyd, K. C. K., Ren, B., Dickel, D. E., Visel, A. & Pennacchio, L. A. Topologically associating domain boundaries are required for normal genome function. Commun. Biol. 6, 435 (2023).
      4. Ushiki, A., Zhang, Y., Xiong, C., Zhao, J., Georgakopoulos-Soares, I., Kane, L., Jamieson, K., Bamshad, M. J., Nickerson, D. A., University of Washington Center for Mendelian Genomics, Shen, Y., Lettice, L. A., Silveira-Lucas, E. L., Petit, F. & Ahituv, N. Deletion of CTCF sites in the SHH locus alters enhancer-promoter interactions and leads to acheiropodia. Nat. Commun. 12, 2282 (2021).
      5. Paliou, C., Guckelberger, P., Schöpflin, R., Heinrich, V., Esposito, A., Chiariello, A. M., Bianco, S., Annunziatella, C., Helmuth, J., Haas, S., Jerković, I., Brieske, N., Wittler, L., Timmermann, B., Nicodemi, M., Vingron, M., Mundlos, S. & Andrey, G. Preformed chromatin topology assists transcriptional robustness of Shh during limb development. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. U. S. A. 116, 12390-12399 (2019).
      6. Zuin, J., Roth, G., Zhan, Y., Cramard, J., Redolfi, J., Piskadlo, E., Mach, P., Kryzhanovska, M., Tihanyi, G., Kohler, H., Eder, M., Leemans, C., van Steensel, B., Meister, P., Smallwood, S. & Giorgetti, L. Nonlinear control of transcription through enhancer-promoter interactions. Nature 604, 571-577 (2022).
      7. Chakraborty, S., Kopitchinski, N., Zuo, Z., Eraso, A., Awasthi, P., Chari, R., Mitra, A., Tobias, I. C., Moorthy, S. D., Dale, R. K., Mitchell, J. A., Petros, T. J. & Rocha, P. P. Enhancer-promoter interactions can bypass CTCF-mediated boundaries and contribute to phenotypic robustness. Nat. Genet. 55, 280-290 (2023).
      8. Hung, T.-C., Kingsley, D. M. & Boettiger, A. N. Boundary stacking interactions enable cross-TAD enhancer-promoter communication during limb development. Nat. Genet. 56, 306-314 (2024).
      9. Hafner, A., Park, M., Berger, S. E., Murphy, S. E., Nora, E. P. & Boettiger, A. N. Loop stacking organizes genome folding from TADs to chromosomes. Mol. Cell 83, 1377-1392.e6 (2023).

      Significance

      The authors show convincing data that Mnx1 indeed responds transcriptionally to several Shh-enhancers located over 100 kb distal and on the wrong side of the TAD boundary. The data come from developing mouse embryos, span several tissues, and include key controls for specificity of the method. This provides convincing data with which to challenge the currently widely accepted view of as TADs a significant boundary, complimenting the few examples that indicate that such regulation is possible in special cases (see further discussion in 2b below). I believe this work represents an important and substantive contribution to the field and should ultimately be published, after a few notable issues have been addressed.

      Audience: I believe this work will be of general interest to the eukaryotic transcription community, the 4D genome community, and the developmental biology community.

      My expertise: developmental biology, 4D genome biology, microscopy

    1. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this study, Zheng et al investigated the role of inflammatory cytokines in protecting cells against SARS-CoV-2 infection. They demonstrate that soluble factors in the supernatants of TLR stimulated THP1 cells reduce fusion events between HEK293 cells expressing SARS-CoV-2 S protein and the ACE2 receptor. Using qRT-PCR and ELISA, they demonstrate that IL-1 cytokines are (not surprisingly) upregulated by TLR treatment in THP1 cells. Further, they convincingly demonstrate that recombinant IL-1 cytokines are sufficient to reduce cell-to-cell fusion mediated by the S protein. Using chemical inhibitors and CRISPR knock-out of key IL-1 receptor signaling components in HEK293 cells, they demonstrate that components of the myddosome (MYD88, IRAK1/4, and TRAF6) are required for fusion inhibition, but that downstream canonical signaling (i.e., TAK1 and NFKB activation) is not required. Instead, they provide evidence that IL-1-dependent non-canonical activation of RhoA/Rock is important for this phenotype. Importantly, the authors demonstrate that expression of a constitutively active RhoA alone is sufficient to inhibit fusion and that chemical inhibition of Rock could reverse this inhibition. The authors followed up these in vitro experiments by examining the effects of IL-1 on SARS-COV-2 infection in vivo and they demonstrate that recombinant IL-1 can reduce viral burden and lung pathogenesis in a mouse model of infection. Use of a ROCK inhibitor in IL-1 treated mice restored the ability of SARS-CoV-2 to spread in the lung, suggesting that this inhibitory process functions in vivo.

      Strengths:

      (1) The bioluminescence cell-cell fusion assay provides a robust quantitative method to examine cytokine effects on viral glycoprotein-mediated fusion.

      (2) The study identifies a new mechanism by which IL-1 cytokines can limit virus infection.

      (3) The authors tested IL-1 mediated inhibition of fusion induced by many different coronavirus S proteins and several SARS-CoV-2 strains.

      (4) The authors demonstrate that recombinant IL-1 mediated inhibition of SARS-CoV-2 infection in mice is dependent on the RhoA/Rock pathway.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this study, Bu et al examined the dynamics of TRPV4 channel in cell overcrowding in carcinoma conditions. They investigated how cell crowding (or high cell confluence) triggers a mechano-transduction pathway involving TRPV4 channels in high-grade ductal carcinoma in situ (DCIS) cells that leads to large cell volume reduction (or cell volume plasticity) and proinvasive phenotype.

      In vitro, this pathway is highly selective for highly malignant invasive cell lines derived from a normal breast epithelial cell line (MCF10CA) compared to the parent cell line, but not present in another triple-negative invasive breast epithelial cell line (MDA-MB-231). The authors convincingly showed that enhanced TRPV4 plasma membrane localization correlates with highgrade DCIS cells in patient tissue samples.

      Specifically in invasive MCF10DCIS.com cells, they showed that overcrowding or overconfluence leads to a decrease in cell volume and intracellular calcium levels. This condition also triggers the trafficking of TRPV4 channels from intracellular stores (nucleus and potentially endosomes), to the plasma membrane (PM). When these over-confluent cells are incubated with a TRPV4 activator, there is an acute and substantial influx of calcium, attesting to the fact that there are a high number of TRPV4 channels present on the PM. Long-term incubation of these over-confluent cells with the TRPV4 activator results in the internalization of the PMlocalized TRPV4 channels.

      In contrast, cells plated at lower confluence primarily have TRPV4 channels localized in the nucleus and cytosol. Long-term incubation of these cells at lower confluence with a TRPV4 inhibitor leads to the relocation of TRPV4 channels to the plasma membrane from intracellular stores and a subsequent reduction in cell volume. Similarly, incubation of these cells at low confluence with PEG 3000 (a hyperosmotic agent) promotes the trafficking of TRPV4 channels from intracellular stores to the plasma membrane.

      Strengths:

      The study is elegantly designed and the findings are novel. Their findings on this mechanotransduction pathway involving TRPV4 channels, calcium homeostasis, cell volume plasticity, motility, and invasiveness will have a great impact in the cancer field and are potentially applicable to other fields as well. Experiments are well-planned and executed, and the data is convincing. The authors investigated TRVP4 dynamics using multiple different strategies- overcrowding, hyperosmotic stress, and pharmacological means, and showed a good correlation between different phenomena.

      Weaknesses:

      A major emphasis in the study is on pharmacological means to relate TRPV4 channel function to the phenotype. I believe the use of genetic means would greatly enhance the impact and provide compelling proof for the involvement of TRPV4 channels in the associated phenotype.

      In this regard, I wonder if siRNA-mediated knockdown of TRPV4 in over-confluent cells (or knockout) would lead to an increase in cell volume and normalize the intracellular calcium levels back to normal, thus ultimately leading to a decrease in cell invasiveness.

      We greatly appreciate the positive feedback regarding the design of our study and the novelty of our findings. We also acknowledge the valuable suggestion to complement our pharmacological approaches with genetic manipulation of TRPV4.

      In response to the comment regarding siRNA-mediated knockdown or knockout of TRPV4, we fully agree that this would further substantiate our findings. In the revised manuscript, we implemented shRNA targeting TRPV4 to investigate its functional effects on intracellular calcium level changes, cell volume plasticity, and invasiveness phenotypes, assessed through singlecell motility assays under cell crowding or hyperosmotic stress. These results have been incorporated into the revised manuscript, and detailed descriptions of these findings are included below.

      Using the shRNA approach that resulted in ~50% reduction of TRPV4 expression

      (Supplementary Figure 6A and 6B show TRPV4 expression levels via IF and immunoblots, respectively), we examined the effect of reduced TRPV4 on intracellular calcium levels in MCF10DCIS.com cells under normal density (ND) and stress conditions (confluent; Con and hyperosmotic; PEG) using Fluo-4 AM imaging (Fig. 4S-X). We found that shRNA TRPV4 slightly decreased calcium levels in ND cells, likely due to fewer active calcium channels at the plasma membrane resulting from lower TRPV4 expression (as shown in the summary plot in Fig. 4W). With fewer active calcium channels, cells treated with shRNA TRPV4 exhibited less reduction in intracellular calcium levels under cell crowding conditions compared to control cells. Additionally, hyperosmotic stress using PEG 300 induced smaller calcium spikes in shRNA cells compared to the significant spike observed in control cells. This reduced calcium response to Con and hyperosmotic stress in shRNA cells was reflected in the decreased cell volume reduction by PEG 300 shown in Fig. 4Y. Consequently, shRNA-mediated TRPV4 reduction impaired cell volume plasticity in MCF10DCIS.com cells and abolished the pro-invasive mechanotransduction capability involving cell volume reduction, as evidenced by no increase in cell motility (both cell diffusivity and directionality) under hyperosmotic conditions (Fig. 5H-J). These findings demonstrate the critical role of TRPV4 in conferring pro-invasive

      mechanotransduction capability to MCF10DCIS.com cells through cell volume reduction.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The metastasis poses a significant challenge in cancer treatment. During the transition from non-invasive cells to invasive metastasis cells, cancer cells usually experience mechanical stress due to a crowded cellular environment. The molecular mechanisms underlying mechanical signaling during this transition remain largely elusive. In this work, the authors utilize an in vitro cell culture system and advanced imaging techniques to investigate how non-invasive and invasive cells respond to cell crowding, respectively.

      Strengths:

      The results clearly show that pre-malignant cells exhibit a more pronounced reduction in cell volume and are more prone to spreading compared to non-invasive cells. Furthermore, the study identifies that TRPV4, a calcium channel, relocates to the plasma membrane both in vitro and in vivo (patient samples). Activation and inhibition of the TRPV4 channel can modulate the cell volume and cell mobility. These results unveil a novel mechanism of mechanical sensing in cancer cells, potentially offering new avenues for therapeutic intervention targeting cancer metastasis by modulating TRPV4 activity. This is a very comprehensive study, and the data presented in the paper are clear and convincing. The study represents a very important advance in our understanding of the mechanical biology of cancer.

      Weaknesses:

      However, I do think that there are several additional experiments that could strengthen the conclusions of this work. A critical limitation is the absence of genetic ablation of the TRPV4 gene to confirm its essential role in the response to cell crowding.

      We are deeply grateful for the positive assessment of our study and its contribution to advancing our understanding of mechanical signaling in cancer progression. We also greatly appreciate the suggestion to incorporate genetic ablation experiments to further validate the role of TRPV4 in cell crowding responses.

      As noted in our response to Reviewer #1, we employed an shRNA approach to investigate the functional effects of TRPV4 knockdown on intracellular calcium level changes, cell volume plasticity, and invasiveness phenotypes. We assessed these effects using Fluo-4 AM calcium assay, single-cell volume measurements, and single-cell motility assays under cell crowding or hyperosmotic stress. These results have been incorporated into the revised manuscript and are described in detail in our response to Reviewer #1's "weaknesses" comment.

      Reducing TRPV4 expression levels by shRNA diminished mechanosensing intracellular calcium changes under cell crowding and hyperosmotic conditions using PEG 300 treatment. Furthermore, a significantly reduced cell volume plasticity was observed under hyperosmotic conditions in shRNA treated cells compared to control cells (Fig. 4S-X). This diminished mechanosensing capability abolished the pro-invasive mechanotransduction effect, as assessed by single cell motility under hyperosmotic conditions (Fig. 5H-J). These findings demonstrate the critical role of TRPV4 in conferring pro-invasive mechanotransduction capability to MCF10DCIS.com cells through cell volume reduction.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      The way the results or discussion section is written. It was a little confusing for me to relate to some phenomena. For example, it is not clear how TRPV4 inhibition (due to overcrowding) leads to a decrease in intercellular calcium levels, especially when TRPV4 channels were intercellular (not on the PM) to begin with (in normal density (ND) conditions). Along the same lines, how GSK219 causes a dip in calcium levels in ND cells when TRPV4 channels are primarily intercellular (Figure 4E). If most of the TRPV4 channels that are translocated to the PM in response to cell crowding are in an inactive state, how do they confer enhanced cell volume plasticity relative to non-invasive cell lines?

      Thank you very much for raising this important point. We fully agree with your concern and have significantly revised the manuscript to clarify this aspect. Specifically, we have emphasized that a modest level of TRPV4 channels are constitutively active at the plasma membrane in normal density (ND) cells. This is now discussed in detail in the context of Fig. 4:

      Page 14: “Considering these factors, we hypothesized that cell crowding might inhibit calcium-permeant ion channels that are constitutively active at the plasma membrane, including TRPV4, which would then lower intracellular calcium levels and subsequently reduce cell volume via osmotic water movement.”

      Page 16-17: “… However, the temporal profile of Fluo-4 intensity in Fig. 4E, which corresponds to the time points marked in Fig. 4D (t<sub>1</sub>: baseline and t<sub>2</sub>: dip), clearly shows the dip at t<sub>2</sub>, indicated by ΔCa (the vertical dashed line between the dip and baseline). This modest Fluo-4 dip at t<sub>2</sub> represents the inhibition of activity by GSK219 on a small population of constitutively active TRPV4 channels at the plasma membrane under ND conditions.

      In Con cells, 1 nM GSK219 caused a smaller dip in Fluo-4 intensity compared to the one observed in ND cells, with no subsequent changes. This is likely due to fewer constitutively active TRPV4 at the plasma membrane in Con cells than in ND cells. …These findings suggest that a substantial portion of TRPV4 channels relocated to the plasma membrane under cell crowding was inactive, and some constitutively active TRPV4 channels already present in the membrane became inactive as a result of cell crowding.”

      'Internalization' might be a better word than 'uptake' in the following line in the results section

      "...activating TRPV4 under cell crowding conditions triggered channel uptake, indicating that TRPV4 trafficking depended on the channel's activation status."

      Thank you very much for this suggestion. As recommended, we replaced ‘uptake’ with internalization’ on page 18: 

      “However, in Con cells, where a large number of inactive TRPV4 channels are likely located at the plasma membrane, GSK101 treatment notably reduced plasma membrane-associated TRPV4 in a dose-dependent manner through internalization (Fig. 4O, 4Q), consistent with previous findings65. These data suggest that plasma membrane TRPV4 levels were largely

      regulated by the channel activity status. Specifically, channel activation led to the internalization of TRPV4, while channel inhibition promoted the relocation of TRPV4 to the plasma membrane.”

      1. Out of curiosity:

      2. Is there any information on what the intercellular TRPV4 channels are doing in the cytosol and in the nucleus? Is there any role of intercellular calcium stores in the proposed pathway?

      We greatly appreciate this insightful question. Although we were unable to find studies specifically exploring the roles of cytosolic TRPV4, a recent study (Reference 74) identified a role for nuclear TRPV4 in regulating calcium within the nucleus. We speculate that when TRPV4 activity is severely impaired, such as with additional TRPV4 inhibition under cell crowding conditions, some TRPV4 channels may be redirected to the nucleus. This redistribution could help maintain nuclear calcium homeostasis.

      This discussion is included on page 18 of the manuscript:

      “These findings suggest that further TRPV4 inhibition under crowding conditions triggers a distinct trafficking alteration. Recent studies have implicated nuclear TRPV4 in regulating nuclear Ca2+ homeostasis and Ca2+-regulated transcription74. In light of this study and our findings, TRPV4 may relocate to the nucleus as a compensatory mechanism to maintain nuclear calcium regulation. This relocation could reflect an adaptive response to preserve calcium-dependent transcriptional programs or other nuclear processes essential for cell survival under mechanical stress.”

      One recommendation is to add some explanation or some minor details for the convenience of the reader. For example:

      At normal or lower confluence, cells show an acute large dip in intercellular calcium when an inhibitor is applied implying that there are a few TRPV4 channels on the PM and they are constitutively active.

      Thank you very much for highlighting this important point and for the helpful suggestion to improve clarity. We have significantly revised the text associated with Fig. 4 to ensure this point is clear. Specifically, we have added the following explanation on page 16:

      "This modest Fluo-4 dip at t2 represents the inhibition of activity by GSK219 on a small population of constitutively active TRPV4 channels at the plasma membrane under ND conditions."

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Figure 1. The authors frequently change the medium to prevent acidification in overconfluent cultures. A cell viability assay should be performed to ensure that the over-confluent cells remain healthy and viable during the experiments. There are commercial kits that can be easily used to quantify the number of viable cells and the extent of cell toxicity. The number of viable cells would provide a more reliable basis for comparison between normal density and overconfluent conditions.

      Thank you very much for raising this important point. We have consistently observed that cell crowding does not induce significant cell death in MCF10DCIS.com cells. To address your recommendation, we performed a viability assay using propidium iodide (PI) to selectively stain dead cells and WGA-488 to stain all live cells. Cell death was quantified under normal density (ND) conditions and at 1, 3, 5, 7, and 10 days post-confluence.

      Our results indicate that cells remain similarly viable post-confluence, with minimal cell death

      (~1.5%) compared to ND cells (~0.75%). These findings are summarized in Supplementary Figure 2, demonstrating that over-confluent cultures remain healthy and viable during the experiments.

      (2) Figure 2. To determine whether the reduction in cell volume is reversible, over-confluent cells can be further diluted back to normal density. Additionally, the reversibility of TRPV4 channel trafficking to the plasma membrane should be assessed under these conditions in IF experiments and cell surface biotinylation.

      Thank you for this suggestion. We reseeded the previously overcrowded (OC) cells at normal density and observed that their TRPV4 distribution predominantly returned to being intracellular, with only modest plasma membrane localization, as shown by line analysis (Supplementary Figure 10A-C, page 13). Furthermore, their invasiveness decreased to levels comparable to the original normal density (ND) cells (Supplementary Figure 3C and 3E, page 6). These results demonstrate the reversibility of TRPV4 trafficking changes and the increase in invasiveness under mechanical stress.

      Page 6. "The enhanced invasiveness of MCF10DCIS.com cells under cell crowding was largely reversible. When OC cells were reseeded at normal density for invasion assays, their invasive cell fraction decreased to approximately 15%, slightly lower (p = 0.012) than the initial value of around 24% (Suppl. Fig. 3C, 3E)."

      Page 13. “We investigated whether TRPV4 relocation to the plasma membrane induced by cell crowding is reversible, as suggested by its impact on invasiveness (Suppl. Fig. 3E). To test this, previously OC MCF10DCIS.com cells were reseeded under ND conditions. We then assessed TRPV4 localization via immunofluorescence (IF) imaging to determine if most channels returned to the cytoplasm and could be relocated to the plasma membrane under mechanical stress, such as hyperosmotic conditions. Consistent with their initial ND state, reseeded ND MCF10DCIS.com cells displayed intracellular TRPV4 distribution (Suppl. Fig. 10A). Upon exposure to hyperosmotic stress (74.4 mOsm/Kg PEG300), TRPV4 was again relocated to the plasma membrane (Suppl. Fig. 10B). These findings, quantified through line analysis (Suppl. Fig. 10C), demonstrate that the mechanosensing response of MCF10DCIS.com cells is reversible.”

      (3) Figure 3B. A control using intracellular proteins such as GAPDH or Tubulin is missing. Including this control would help exclude the possibility of cell rupture or compromised cell membranes in crowded environments, which is very common in a cell crowding environment.

      Thank you very much for pointing this out. The control lanes (GAPDH) were already included in the full gel results shown in Supplementary Figure 5. For the immunoprecipitation and immunoblotting of surface-biotinylated cell lysates, we did not expect to detect GAPDH; however, some GAPDH signals were still observed. As shown for MCF10DCIS.com cells, less GAPDH was detected under OC conditions, but the immunoprecipitated samples displayed significantly higher levels of TRPV4 on the cell surface compared to ND cells (Supplementary Figure 5A). For the whole cell lysates, TRPV4 protein levels were comparable across different cell lines based on the immunoblot results, with consistent GAPDH signals serving as a loading control (Supplementary Figure 5B).

      (4) Figure 4. To convincingly demonstrate TRPV4 relocation to the plasma membrane, IF should be performed under non-permeable conditions (i.e., without detergents like saponin). This approach ensures that only plasma membrane proteins are accessible to antibodies, reducing intracellular background. The same approach should be applied to Piezo1 and TfR.

      Thank you for this suggestion. We observed that under non-permeable conditions, primary antibodies could still access intracellular proteins. To address this issue, we employed extracellular-binding TRPV4 antibodies to selectively detect TRPV4 relocation to the plasma membrane under hyperosmotic conditions (74.4 mOsm/kg PEG 300) in live MCF10DCIS.com cells, as shown in Supplementary Figure 9. These results clearly demonstrate the plasma membrane relocation of TRPV4 under hyperosmotic conditions, distinguishing it from control conditions. Unfortunately, we were unable to identify high-affinity extracellular-binding antibodies for Piezo1 and TfR. Nevertheless, our findings strongly support the mechanosensing plasma membrane relocation of TRPV4.

      Essential Weakness:

      Throughout the study, only TRPV4 inhibitors and activators were used to show that TRPV4 relocation is associated with intracellular calcium concentration and cell size changes. It is crucial to use TRPV4 KO or KD cells to confirm that the observed effects are specific to TRPV4 and not due to off-target effects on other proteins. Additionally, fusing a plasma membrane targeting sequence to TRPV4 to make a constitutive plasma membrane-localized construct could demonstrate the opposite effect.

      Thank you very much for this important comment. As noted in our response to Reviewer #1, we employed an shRNA approach to investigate the functional effects of TRPV4 knockdown on intracellular calcium level changes, cell volume plasticity, and invasiveness phenotypes. We assessed these effects using Fluo-4 AM calcium assay, single-cell volume measurements, and single-cell motility assays under cell crowding or hyperosmotic stress. These results have been incorporated into the revised manuscript and are described in detail in our response to Reviewer #1's "weaknesses" comment.

      Reducing TRPV4 expression levels by shRNA diminished mechanosensing intracellular calcium changes under cell crowding and hyperosmotic conditions using PEG 300 treatment. Furthermore, a significantly reduced cell volume plasticity was observed under hyperosmotic conditions in shRNA treated cells compared to control cells (Fig. 4S-X). This diminished mechanosensing capability abolished the pro-invasive mechanotransduction effect, as assessed by single cell motility under hyperosmotic conditions (Fig. 5H-J). These findings demonstrate the critical role of TRPV4 in conferring pro-invasive mechanotransduction capability to MCF10DCIS.com cells through cell volume reduction.

      Minor Points:

      The introduction section is poorly written; many results currently included in the introduction would be more appropriately placed in the discussion section. The long redundant introduction makes the article hard to read through.

      Thank you very much for pointing this out. In the revised introduction, we have significantly reduced references to the results, streamlining the section to make it more concise and focused. This adjustment ensures the introduction is clearer and avoids redundancy, improving the readability of the manuscript.

    1. This was the most interesting ‘error’ to me. RP took a subsample of the 241 papers sampled for this research (24 papers) and extracted the parameters for SOA and p(nogo) himself. He then identified several cases in which the values he extracted from the methods section differed from the ones I originally extracted in 2016.I was frankly astonished by the degree of this mismatch. RP identified 4 instances in which the p(nogo) parameter did not match (though I am taking the liberty to dispute one of them as an error, because I rounded from 31.7% to 32% and he did not). Either way, this still leaves an error rate of 12.5% (3/2
    1. La transcription d'une conférence de Gaïd Andro analyse l'évolution des programmes d'enseignement moral et civique (EMC) en France de 2015 à 2024.

      Elle met en lumière les tensions entre l'approche par compétences centrée sur l'élève et une approche plus normative axée sur la cohésion nationale et la protection de la République.

      L'exposé explore les difficultés rencontrées par les enseignants face à ces changements de paradigme et à la complexité de leur rôle dans un contexte social et politique incertain.

      L'intervention souligne le besoin d'une approche pédagogique plus proactive, favorisant l'enquête et la recherche de savoirs, plutôt qu'une simple transmission de valeurs.

      Enfin, elle propose des pistes pour une meilleure articulation entre les savoirs scolaires et les opinions des élèves, notamment par le biais de collaborations interdisciplinaires et de sorties scolaires.

      Sommaire minuté

      0:00 - 2:27 : Introduction

      • Présentation de Gaïd Andro, historienne de la Révolution Française et enseignante.
      • Objectif de la conférence : analyse réflexive et critique des enjeux de l'EMC dans une société en crise et du rôle de l'enseignant.
      • Décalage entre les projets politiques annoncés et la réalité de l'apprentissage de l'engagement en classe.
      • Parcours professionnel et multidisciplinarité de Gaïd Andro.

      2:27 - 4:02 : Contexte historique de l'EMC (avant 2015)

      • ECJS au lycée : culture civique, juridique et sociale, débats de société.
      • Éducation civique au collège : approche procédurale, institutions, droits et devoirs.

      4:02 - 8:49 : L'EMC de 2015 : un changement de paradigme

      • Naissance de l'EMC en 2015 avec la loi de refondation de l'école.
      • Réintroduction de la morale et débat sur son approche (comportementale vs intellectuelle).
      • Objectif de l'EMC : articulation entre les valeurs individuelles et collectives.
      • Reconnaissance du pluralisme des valeurs et inclusion républicaine.
      • Approche par compétence et construction d'un parcours citoyen.
      • Domaines de compétences : sensibilité, droit et règle, jugement, engagement.

      8:49 - 15:10 : Difficultés de mise en œuvre de l'EMC de 2015

      • Changement de pratique professionnelle important et manque de formation des enseignants.
      • Contexte de crise : attentats de 2015 et crispation sur la radicalisation religieuse.
      • Décalage entre le projet politique de l'EMC et l'attente sociale.
      • Difficulté d'appropriation du programme par les enseignants et floutage du message politique.

      15:10 - 28:26 : L'EMC sous Jean-Michel Blanquer (2018-2024)

      • Réforme du lycée et nouveaux programmes d'EMC.
      • Introduction d'un chapeau : respect d'autrui, valeurs de la République, culture civique.
      • Recentrage sur le groupe et la cohésion nationale.
      • Tension entre le primat du citoyen et le primat du régime.
      • Focalisation sur les divisions internes à la société et approche comportementale.
      • Contexte social : mouvement des gilets jaunes, répression du mouvement lycéen, marches pour le climat.
      • Divorce entre le pilotage de l'éducation nationale et les pratiques sur le terrain.

      28:26 - 36:38 : Les nouveaux programmes d'EMC (2024)

      • Réarmement civique et nouveaux programmes pilotés par Pap Ndiaye, Gabriel Attal et Elisabeth Borne.
      • Trois points forts : pédagogie de projet, éducation aux médias et à l'information, éducation au développement durable.
      • Abandon de l'approche par cycle et par compétence, retour à une approche par programme.
      • Incohérences et difficultés à penser des alternatives pédagogiques.
      • Rétablir la confiance dans l'État et focalisation sur les dispositifs existants.
      • L'engagement comme un patrimoine à défendre et focalisation sur la mémoire.
      • Patriotisme constitutionnel et enfermement dans le présentisme.
      • La question environnementale réduite à la gestion des risques.
      • Evolution des projets politiques de l'EMC et force d'inertie de l'éducation nationale.
      • Questionnement sur la radicalité de l'engagement.

      36:38 - 1:02:11 : La posture de l'enseignant en EMC : entre neutralité et transmission des valeurs

      • Difficultés des enseignants face à la neutralité professionnelle et la transmission des valeurs.
      • Exemple d'une séance de formation avec des enseignants débutants et la question des opinions problématiques.
      • Importance du savoir et de l'expertise de l'enseignant.

      1:02:11 - 1:11:01 : Conclusion

      • La citoyenneté globale comme alternative aux programmes franco-centrés.
      • Importance de sortir de la classe et de se confronter à la complexité du monde.

      1:11:01 - 1:16:53 : Questions et réponses

      • Question sur la place de la solidarité internationale dans l'EMC.
      • Question sur le rôle du professeur documentaliste dans l'accompagnement des changements pédagogiques.
    2. Chronologie des Événements

      Avant 2012:

      • Présence de l’ECJS (Éducation Civique Juridique et Sociale) au lycée, centrée sur la transmission d’une culture civique, juridique et sociale, et intégrant l'actualité et les débats de société.
      • Éducation civique au collège, héritée de la pensée Chevènementiste.

      2012: Arrivée de François Hollande à la présidence de la République.

      2013: Loi sur la refondation de l'école.

      2015:

      • Naissance de l'Enseignement Moral et Civique (EMC), conçu comme un enseignement avec un contenu propre, et non comme une simple éducation.
      • Introduction de la "morale" dans l'enseignement, pensée comme un questionnement éthique et non un apprentissage du bon comportement.
      • Approche par compétences, visant à développer la sensibilité, la compréhension du droit et de la règle, le jugement et l'engagement.
      • Programme EMC détaché d'un cadrage par rapport au régime politique.

      Problèmes rencontrés :

      • Difficulté pour les enseignants à mettre en place une approche par compétences.
      • Manque de formation des enseignants face à ce nouveau programme et à la gestion des événements liés à la violence terroriste.

      2016-2017:

      • Difficultés croissantes pour l'EMC face aux attentats terroristes et à la question des caricatures.
      • Débat sur la laïcité et son rôle dans l'EMC.
      • Aggravation de la radicalisation religieuse et de l'abstention des jeunes.
      • Radicalisation de l'engagement d'une partie de la jeunesse sur la question écologique (ex: Notre-Dame-des-Landes).

      2017: Élection d'Emmanuel Macron à la présidence de la République.

      2018:

      • Jean-Michel Blanquer devient ministre de l'Éducation nationale.
      • Réforme du lycée et nouveaux programmes d'EMC.
      • Création d'un "chapeau" dominant les quatre dimensions de l'EMC (sensibilité, jugement, engagement, droit et règle).
      • Ce chapeau met l'accent sur trois principes fondamentaux:
      • Respect d'autrui.
      • Acquisition et partage des valeurs de la République.
      • Construction d'une culture civique.
      • Changement de paradigme: passage du primat du citoyen au primat du régime.
      • Programme EMC axé sur la cohésion et la lutte contre les divisions internes à la société.
      • Vision plus protectrice de l'EMC.
      • Tensions et critiques face à ce changement de cap et aux événements de l'époque (affaire Théo, répression des manifestations).

      2019:

      • Poursuite du clivage entre la vision protectrice de l'EMC et les aspirations à l'engagement des jeunes.
      • Divorce croissant entre le pilotage de l'éducation nationale et les pratiques sur le terrain.

      2024:

      • Pap Ndiaye devient ministre de l'Éducation nationale.
      • Nouveaux programmes d'EMC élaborés dans un contexte de tensions et de changements politiques importants.
      • Gabriel Attal, puis Elisabeth Borne succèdent à Pap Ndiaye.
      • Trois points forts des nouveaux programmes :
      • Pédagogie de projet.
      • Éducation aux médias et à l'information.
      • Éducation au développement durable.
      • Abandon de l'approche par cycle et par compétences.
      • Accent mis sur la confiance dans l'État et la sécurité.
      • Engagement présenté comme un patrimoine à défendre.
      • Focalisation sur la question mémorielle et le patriotisme constitutionnel.
      • Risque d'enfermement dans un "présentisme" limitant les perspectives d'avenir.

      Points de tension persistants:

      • Difficulté à concilier la neutralité de l'enseignant et la transmission de valeurs.
      • Tension entre la transmission des valeurs de la communauté nationale et l'émancipation du citoyen critique.
      • Question de la place de la radicalité dans l'engagement citoyen.
      • Défis posés par la crise climatique et les enjeux globaux.

      Personnages Principaux

      1. Gaïd Andro: Maître de conférences en histoire contemporaine à l'Université de Nantes et chercheur au CRHIA (Centre de Recherches en Histoire Internationale et Atlantique).

      Spécialiste de l'histoire politique et sociale de la Révolution française, de l'histoire de l'éducation et de la citoyenneté.

      A travaillé comme enseignante d'histoire-géographie pendant 10 ans avant de se consacrer à la formation des enseignants.

      Ses recherches actuelles portent sur l'articulation entre l'éducation à la citoyenneté, l'engagement politique et les savoirs critiques dans le monde contemporain.

      2. Jules Ferry (1832-1893): Homme politique français considéré comme le père de l'école laïque, gratuite et obligatoire.

      Ministre de l'Instruction publique à plusieurs reprises, il a joué un rôle majeur dans la mise en place du système éducatif français moderne.

      3. Jean-Jacques Rousseau (1712-1778): Philosophe des Lumières dont les idées sur l'éducation ont fortement influencé la pédagogie moderne.

      Son ouvrage "Émile ou De l'éducation" est considéré comme un texte fondateur de la pensée éducative.

      4. Jean-Michel Blanquer (né en 1964): Homme politique français, ministre de l'Éducation nationale de 2017 à 2022.

      Il a mené une politique éducative axée sur le renforcement des fondamentaux, la lutte contre l'inégalité des chances et la promotion des valeurs républicaines.

      5. Pap Ndiaye (né en 1965): Historien français, spécialiste de l'histoire sociale des États-Unis et de la question raciale.

      Ministre de l'Éducation nationale de 2022 à 2023, il a mis l'accent sur la lutte contre les discriminations, l'inclusion et la justice sociale dans le système éducatif.

      6. Gabriel Attal (né en 1990): Homme politique français, porte-parole du gouvernement de 2020 à 2022, puis ministre délégué chargé des Comptes publics de 2022 à 2023.

      Il a ensuite occupé le poste de ministre de l'Éducation nationale de juillet 2023 à mai 2024.

      7. Élisabeth Borne (née en 1961): Femme politique française, Première ministre depuis 2022.

      Elle a succédé à Jean Castex à la tête du gouvernement et a la charge de mettre en œuvre le programme du président Emmanuel Macron.

      8. Pierre Canne: Auteur de l'ouvrage "L'enseignement moral et civique : enjeux et perspectives", qui explore les fondements philosophiques et les enjeux de l'EMC.

      Ses travaux mettent en avant l'importance de l'articulation entre les valeurs individuelles et les valeurs collectives dans l'éducation à la citoyenneté.

      9. Célestin Freinet (1896-1966): Pédagogue français, créateur de la pédagogie Freinet.

      Son approche met l'accent sur l'apprentissage par l'expérience, la coopération entre élèves et l'importance du travail manuel.

      10. John Dewey (1859-1952): Philosophe et pédagogue américain, considéré comme l'un des fondateurs du pragmatisme.

      Son approche éducative, connue sous le nom d' "éducation progressive", met l'accent sur l'apprentissage par l'action et l'importance de l'expérience dans la construction des connaissances.

      11. Condorcet (1743-1794): Philosophe des Lumières, mathématicien et homme politique français.

      Ses idées sur l'éducation ont fortement influencé la pensée républicaine. Il défendait une éducation accessible à tous, fondée sur la raison et visant à l'émancipation des citoyens.

      12. Hannah Arendt (1906-1975): Philosophe politique allemande d'origine juive.

      Ses travaux portent sur la nature du totalitarisme, la condition humaine et la responsabilité politique.

      Dans "La crise de l'éducation", elle analyse les défis posés à l'éducation dans un monde marqué par les ruptures et les crises.

      13. Jacques Rancière (né en 1940): Philosophe français, ses travaux portent sur l'esthétique, la politique et l'éducation.

      Dans "Le maître ignorant", il explore la notion d'égalité d'intelligence et remet en question le rôle traditionnel de l'enseignant comme détenteur du savoir.

      14. Max Weber (1864-1920): Sociologue, économiste et historien allemand.

      Ses travaux ont profondément influencé la sociologie. Il est notamment connu pour son analyse du pouvoir et de l'autorité, et pour sa théorie sur la légitimité de l'État.

      15. François Hartog: Historien français, directeur d'études à l'EHESS.

      Ses travaux portent sur l'histoire des régimes d'historicité, et notamment sur la notion de "présentisme" qui désigne l'enfermement dans le présent et la difficulté à penser l'avenir.

      Remarques Il est également important de souligner que les discours sur l'éducation à la citoyenneté sont souvent marqués par des enjeux idéologiques et politiques.

      L'analyse de ces discours nécessite une prise de recul critique et une contextualisation historique.

    1. Briefing Doc: Les jeunes et l'engagement politique - une perspective INJEP

      Sources: Exposé de Laurent Lardeux, chargé d'études et de recherche à l'INJEP (Institut national de la jeunesse et de l'éducation populaire) lors d'une conférence à l'INSPÉ de Villeneuve d'Ascq, le 15 janvier 2025.

      Thèmes principaux:

      • Définition et dimensions de l'engagement
      • Évolution du rapport des jeunes à la politique et à la démocratie
      • L'engagement des jeunes dans les mouvements pour le climat
      • Le rôle de la socialisation politique (famille, école) dans l'engagement
      • Les facteurs déclencheurs de l'engagement des jeunes activistes
      • La relation entre engagement alternatif et participation institutionnelle

      Idées et faits importants:

      1. Définition et dimensions de l'engagement:

      Le terme "engagement" est polysémique et recouvre une variété d'approches, allant de la mobilisation ponctuelle à l'engagement libre et autonome, en passant par des formes plus conventionnelles liées à des organisations.

      L'INJEP aborde l'engagement selon trois dimensions complémentaires : * L'engagement lié à un idéal et des valeurs mobilisatrices (solidarité, entraide, citoyenneté) * L'engagement lié à des dispositifs institutionnels (droits, devoirs, dispositifs de participation) * L'engagement à travers des pratiques effectives d'implication dans la vie collective.

      2. Évolution du rapport des jeunes à la politique et à la démocratie:

      • L'enquête européenne sur les valeurs montre une relation "plus contrariée" des jeunes à la démocratie.
      • On observe un soutien déclaré important pour la démocratie, mais aussi une part significative de jeunes attirés par des régimes autoritaires (homme fort, régime militaire).
      • La participation politique des jeunes se caractérise par une abstention croissante et des formes d'engagement plus protestataires.
      • Citation: "cette participation plus protestataire cette abstention là c'est s'est perpétué finalement au fil des éditions de de l'enquête donc c'est pour ça que quand on dit qu'il y a un effet d'âge ... il y a plutôt un effet de génération."
      • Cette évolution s'explique par un contexte de défiance accrue envers les institutions et une perception de la politique comme inefficace.
      • Les jeunes sont moins sensibles aux clivages politiques traditionnels et s'engagent davantage sur des thématiques transversales.

      3. L'engagement des jeunes dans les mouvements pour le climat:

      L'enquête de l'INJEP auprès de 52 jeunes activistes du mouvement climat met en lumière les facteurs déclencheurs de leur engagement et leurs modes d'action.

      Le mouvement climat se caractérise par:

      • La jeunesse des participants
      • La diversité des modes opératoires (marches, désobéissance civile)
      • Un fonctionnement horizontal et collégial
      • Citation: "le fait de passer des marches pour le climat ... vers des actions de désobéissance civile ... ça a quand même eu des des effets avec l'attention notamment médiatique qui s'est davantage porté sur sur l'action spectaculaire"
      • Les jeunes activistes interrogés sont majoritairement issus de milieux sociaux favorisés et urbains, et présentent un haut niveau de diplôme.

      4. Le rôle de la socialisation politique (famille, école) dans l'engagement:

      • L'engagement des jeunes est influencé par la socialisation politique au sein de la famille et de l'école.
      • Trois logiques de socialisation familiale:
      • Identification: le jeune s'inspire de l'engagement de ses parents
      • Contre-dépendance: le jeune rejette l'engagement de ses parents
      • Inversion: le jeune influence l'engagement de ses parents
      • L'environnement scolaire peut jouer un rôle en coopération (démocratie scolaire, projets éco-responsables) ou en opposition (poussées contestataires, grèves scolaires).

      5. Les facteurs déclencheurs de l'engagement des jeunes activistes:

      • L'engagement s'explique par une articulation entre des facteurs macro-sociaux (événements climatiques, discours politique) et micro-sociaux (socialisation familiale, expériences personnelles).
      • Citation: "il faut distinguer ... le niveau macro-social ... qui va se rapporter notamment au aux événements climatiques par exemple ... et le niveau ... micro-social ... la façon dont les parents ont pu éventuellement aussi intervenir"
      • Les réseaux sociaux jouent un rôle important en tant que facilitateurs de l'engagement, permettant aux jeunes de s'informer, de se connecter et de s'identifier à des figures militantes.
      • L'influence de personnalités comme Greta Thunberg ou Camille Étienne est significative, notamment auprès des jeunes femmes, favorisant leur sentiment de légitimité à s'engager.

      6. La relation entre engagement alternatif et participation institutionnelle:

      • L'engagement des jeunes activistes pour le climat s'accompagne d'une défiance à l'égard des institutions politiques traditionnelles.
      • Ils sont porteurs de discours critiques sur l'inaction climatique et le fonctionnement démocratique du pays.
      • Cependant, cette défiance ne se traduit pas nécessairement par un rejet total de la participation institutionnelle.
      • Citation: "on a quand même affaire à une à des jeunes activistes qui effectivement se positionne comme étant défiant à l'égard de la politique traditionnelle et qui malgré tout continue de participer de façon très institutionnelle aussi à la politique"
      • Beaucoup de ces jeunes votent et certains s'engagent par la suite dans des partis politiques, notamment écologistes.

      Conclusion:

      L'engagement des jeunes est en mutation, marqué par une défiance accrue envers les institutions et une recherche de nouvelles formes de participation.

      L'engagement pour le climat est emblématique de cette évolution, avec des jeunes qui s'impliquent de manière plus directe et contestataire.

      La recherche de l'INJEP souligne l'importance de mieux comprendre les motivations et les aspirations de ces nouvelles générations, afin de créer les conditions d'un dialogue constructif et d'une participation citoyenne renouvelée.

    1. from math import cos,sin,pifrom kandinsky import *from ion import *from random import random,randint#menudef menu(): global vitesse,Vraquette draw_string("Mode",140,20,'orange') draw_string("1 joueur 2 joueurs",60,40,'orange') mode=1 while not (keydown(KEY_OK) or keydown(KEY_EXE)): draw_string("[",40+120*mode,40,'blue') draw_string("]",150+130*mode,40,'blue') if keydown(KEY_LEFT) or keydown(KEY_RIGHT): mode=1-mode draw_string(" ",40+120*(1-mode),40) draw_string(" ",150+130*(1-mode),40) while keydown(KEY_LEFT) or keydown(KEY_RIGHT):True while keydown(KEY_OK) or keydown(KEY_EXE):True draw_string("Vitesse du jeu",90,70,'orange') draw_string("lent moyen rapide",60,90,'orange') vitesse=2 while not (keydown(KEY_OK) or keydown(KEY_EXE)): draw_string("[",-30+70*vitesse+10*(vitesse//3),90,'blue') draw_string("]",30+80*vitesse+10*(vitesse//3),90,'blue') dv=keydown(KEY_RIGHT)-keydown(KEY_LEFT) if (keydown(KEY_RIGHT) or keydown(KEY_LEFT)) and dv != 0: draw_string(" ",-30+70*vitesse+10*(vitesse//3),90) draw_string(" ",30+80*vitesse+10*(vitesse//3),90) vitesse=(vitesse+dv-1)%3+1 while keydown(KEY_RIGHT) or keydown(KEY_LEFT):True while keydown(KEY_OK) or keydown(KEY_EXE):True draw_string("Déplacement des raquettes",55,120,'orange') draw_string("lent moyen rapide",60,140,'orange') Vraquette=2 while not (keydown(KEY_OK) or keydown(KEY_EXE)): draw_string("[",-30+70*Vraquette+10*(Vraquette//3),140,'blue') draw_string("]",30+80*Vraquette+10*(Vraquette//3),140,'blue') dr=keydown(KEY_RIGHT)-keydown(KEY_LEFT) if (keydown(KEY_RIGHT) or keydown(KEY_LEFT)) and dr != 0: draw_string(" ",-30+70*Vraquette+10*(Vraquette//3),140) draw_string(" ",30+80*Vraquette+10*(Vraquette//3),140) Vraquette=(Vraquette+dr-1)%3+1 while keydown(KEY_RIGHT) or keydown(KEY_LEFT):True # ajouter mode de rebond : angle relatif ou absolu return modemode=menu()fill_rect(0,18,320,1,'purple')fill_rect(0,204,320,1,'purple')#raquette 1x1=5y1=111#raquette 2x2=315y2=111#ballex=160y=111def balle(x,y,couleur): fill_rect(x-2,y-2,5,5,couleur)def raquette(x,y,couleur): fill_rect(x-1,y-10,3,21,couleur)score=[0,0]angle=(pi/6-pi/18)*random()+pi/18horiz=2*randint(0,1)-1verti=1clr1,clr2=(96,44,120),(104,44,128)while 1: fill_rect(0,19,320,185,'white') x,y=160,111 x1,y1=5,111 x2,y2=315,111 #vitesse=2 V=vitesse while 1: d1 = (keydown(48)-keydown(30)) y1 = max(min(193,y1+(vitesse+Vraquette-1)*d1),29) # y1 +=3*d1 if mode: d2 = (keydown(52)-keydown(34)) else: d2 = min(vitesse+Vraquette-1,abs(int(y2-y)))*(2*(y>y2)-1) y2 = max(min(193,y2+d2*(1+(vitesse+Vraquette-1-1)*mode)),29)#y2 += d2 #3*(2*randint(0,3)-3 #draw_string("|",x1,y1,['green','red'][(y1-y)**2>100]) raquette(x1,y1,['green','red'][(y1-y)**2>169]) if d1 != 0:fill_rect(x1-1,y1-2-13*d1,5,5,'white') raquette(x2,y2,['blue','red'][(y2-y)**2>169]) if d2 != 0: if mode: fill_rect(x2-1,y2-2-13*d2,5,5,'white') else: fill_rect(x2-1,y2-2-13*(2*(y>y2)-1),5,5,'white') vx=x vy=y x+=V*cos(angle)*horiz y+=V*sin(angle)*verti clr1,clr2=clr2,clr1 balle(int(x),int(y),clr1) for i in range(5): for j in range(5): if get_pixel(int(vx)-2+i,int(vy)-2+j)==clr2: set_pixel(int(vx)-2+i,int(vy)-2+j,'white') if x>311: horiz = -1 if (y-y2)**2>169: draw_string("Joueur1 a gagné",85,110) score[0]+=1 break else: #angle=min(2*pi/5,angle+(y-y2)*pi/180) angle=abs(6*(y-y2)*pi/180) verti = 2*(y>y2)-1 V *= 1.1 draw_string("Vitesse : "+str(V)[:4]+" ",15,205,'blue') draw_string("Angle : "+str(int(abs(angle*180/pi)))+"° ",180,205,'green') if x<9: horiz = 1 if (y-y1)**2>169: draw_string("Joueur2 a gagné",85,110) score[1]+=1 break else: #angle=min(2*pi/5,angle+(y-y1)*pi/180) angle=abs(6*(y-y1)*pi/180) verti = 2*(y>y1)-1 V *= 1.1 draw_string("Vitesse : "+str(V)[:4]+" ",15,205,'blue') draw_string("Angle : "+str(int(abs(angle*180/pi)))+"° ",180,205,'green') if y>200 or y<22: verti *= -1 #angle *= -1 fill_rect(0,204,320,1,'purple') fill_rect(0,18,320,1,'purple') while not keydown(KEY_OK): draw_string("Score : "+str(score[0])+" - "+str(score[1]),60,0,'red') draw_string("OK",145,131,'purple','cyan')

      Il y a que moi pour qui ça me met "name 'pi' isn't def" sur ma calculette svp?

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authiors show that SVZ derived astrocytes respond to a middle carotid artery occlusion (MCAO) hypoxia lesion by secreting and modulating hyaluronan at the edge of the lesion (penumbra) and that hyaluronin is a chemoattractant to SVZ astrocytes. They use lineage tracing of SVZ cells to determine their origin. They also find that SVZ derived astrocytes express Thbs-4 but astrocytes at the MCAO-induced scar do not. Also, they demonstrate that decreased HA in the SVZ is correlated with gliogenesis. While much of the paper is descriptive/correlative they do overexpress Hyaluronan synthase 2 via viral vectors and show this is sufficient to recruit astrocytes to the injury. Interestingly, astrocytes preferred to migrate to the MCAO than to the region of overexpressed HAS2.

      Strengths:

      The field has largely ignored the gliogenic response of the SVZ, especially with regards to astrocytic function. These cells and especially newborn cells may provide support for regeneration. Emigrated cells from the SVZ have been shown to be neuroprotective via creating pro-survival environments, but their expression and deposition of beneficial extracellular matrix molecules is poorly understood. Therefore, this study is timely and important. The paper is very well written and the flow of results logical.

      Comments on revised version:

      The authors have addressed my points and the paper is much improved. Here are the salient remaining issues that I suggest be addressed.

      The authors have still not shown, using loss of function studies, that Hyaluronan is necessary for SVZ astrogenesis and or migration to MCAO lesions.

      (1) The co-expression of EGFr with Thbs4 and the literature examination is useful.

      (2) Too bad they cannot explain the lack of effect of the MCAO on type C cells. The comparison with kainate-induced epilepsy in the hippocampus may or may not be relevant.

      (3) Thanks for including the orthogonal confocal views in Fig S6D.

      (4) The statement that "BrdU+/Thbs4+ cells mostly in the dorsal area" and therefore they mostly focused on that region is strange. Figure 8 clearly shows Thbs4 staining all along the striatal SVZ. Do they mean the dorsal segment of the striatal SVZ or the subcallosal SVZ? Fig. 4b and Fig 4f clearly show the "subcallosal" area as the one analysed but other figures show the dorsal striatal region (Fig. 2a). This is important because of the well-known embryological and neurogenic differences between the regions.

      (5) It is good to know that the harsh MCAO's had already been excluded.

      (6) Sorry for the lack of clarity - in addition to Thbs4, I was referring to mouse versus rat Hyaluronan degradation genes (Hyal1, Hyal2 and Hyal3) and hyaluronan synthase genes (HAS1 and HAS2) in order to address the overall species differences in hyaluronan biology thus justifying the "shift" from mouse to rat. You examine these in the (weirdly positioned) Fig. 8h,i. Please add a few sentences on mouse vs rat Thbs4 and Hyaluronan relevant genes.

      (7) Thank you for the better justification of using the naked mole rat HA synthase.

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Kang et al. provide the first experimental insights from holographic stimulation of auditory cortex. Using stimulation of functionally-defined ensembles, they test whether overactivation of a specific subpopulation biases simultaneous and subsequent sensory-evoked network activations.

      Strengths:

      The investigators use a novel technique to investigate the sensory response properties in functionally defined cell assemblies in auditory cortex. These data provide the first evidence of how acutely perturbing specific frequency-tuned neurons impacts the tuning across a broader population.

      Weaknesses:

      I have several main concerns about the interpretation of these data:<br /> (1) The premise of the paper suggests that sensory responses are noisy at the level of neurons, but that population activity is reliable and that different neurons may participate in sensory coding on different trials. However, no analysis related to single trial variance or overall stability of population coding is provided. Specifically, showing that population activity is stable across trials in terms of total activity level or in some latent low dimensional representation would be required to support the concept of "homeostatic balancing".<br /> (2) Rebalancing would predict either that the responses of stimulated neurons would remain A) elevated after stimulation due to a hebbian mechanism or B) suppressed due to high activity levels on previous trials, a homeostatic mechanism. The authors report suppression in targeted neurons after stimulation blocks, but this appears similar to all other non-stimulated neurons. How do the authors interpret the post-stimulation effect in stimulated neurons?<br /> (3) The authors suggest that ACtx is different from visual cortex in that neurons with different tuning properties are intermingled. While that is true at the level of individual neurons, there is global order, as demonstrated by the authors own widefield imaging data and others at the single cell level (e.g. Tischbirek et al. 2019). Generally, distance is dismissed as a variable in the paper, but this is not convincing. Work across multiple sensory systems, including the authors own work, has demonstrated that cortical neuron connectivity is not random but varies as a function of distance (e.g. Watkins et al. 2014). Better justification is needed for the spatial pattern of neurons that were chosen for stimulation. Further, analyses that account for center of mass of stimulation, rather than just the distance from any stimulated neuron would be important to any negative result related to distance.<br /> (4) Data curation and presentation: Broadly, the way the data were curated and plotted makes it difficult to determine how well-supported the authors claims are. In terms of curation, the removal of outliers 3 standard deviations above the mean in the analysis of stimulation effects is questionable. Given the single-cell stimulation data presented in Figure 1, the reader is led to believe that holographic stimulation is quite specific. However, the justification for removing these outliers is that there may be direct stimulation 20-30 um from the target. Without plotting and considering the outliers as well, it is difficult to understand if these outsized responses are due to strong synaptic connections with neighboring neurons or rather just direct off-target stimulation. Relatedly, data presentation is limited to the mean + SEM for almost all main effects and pre-post stimulation effects are only compared indirectly. Whether stimulation effects are driven by just a few neurons that are particularly suppressed or distinct populations which are suppressed or enhanced remains unclear.

    2. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      The goal of HiJee Kang et al. in this study is to explore the interaction between assemblies of neurons with similar pure-tone selectivity in mouse auditory cortex. Using holographic optogenetic stimulation in a small subset of target cells selective for a given pure tone (PTsel), while optically monitoring calcium activity in surrounding non-target cells, they discovered a subtle rebalancing process: co-tuned neurons that are not optogenetically stimulated tend to reduce their activity. The cortical network reacts as if an increased response to PTsel in some tuned assemblies is immediately offset by a reduction in activity in the rest of the PTsel-tuned assemblies, leaving the overall response to PTsel unchanged. The authors show that this rebalancing process affects only the responses of neurons to PTsel, not to other pure tones. They also show that assemblies of neurons that are not selective for PTsel don't participate in the rebalancing process. They conclude that assemblies of neurons with similar pure-tone selectivity must interact in some way to organize this rebalancing process, and they suggest that mechanisms based on homeostatic signaling may play a role.

      The conclusions of this paper are very interesting but some aspects of the study including methods for optogenetic stimulation, statistical analysis of the results and interpretation of the underlying mechanisms need to be clarified and extended.

      (1) This study uses an all-optical approach to excite a restricted group of neurons chosen for their functional characteristics (their frequency tuning), and simultaneously record from the entire network observable in the FOV. As stated by the authors, this approach is applied for the first time to the auditory cortex, which is a tour de force. However, such an approach is complex and requires precise controls to be convincing. In the manuscript, several methodological aspects are not sufficiently described to allow a proper understanding.<br /> (i) The use of CRmine together with GCaMP8s has been reported as problematic as the 2Ph excitation of GCaMP8s also excites the opsin. Here, the authors use a red-shifted version of CRmine to prevent such cross excitation by the imaging laser. To be convincing, they should explain how they controlled for the absence of rsCRmine activation by the 940nm light. Showing the fluorescence traces immediately after the onset of the imaging session would ensure that neurons are not excited as they are imaged.<br /> (ii) Holographic patterns used to excite 5 cells simultaneously may be associated with out-of-focus laser hot spots. Cells located outside of the FOV could be activated, therefore engaging other cells than the targeted ones in the stimulation. This would be problematic in this study as their tuning may be unrelated to the tuning of the targeted cells. To control for such an effect, one could in principle decouple the imaging and the excitation planes, and check for the absence of out-of-focus unwanted excitation.<br /> (iii) The control shown in Figure 1B is intended to demonstrate the precision of the optogenetic stimulation: when the stimulation spiral is played at a distance larger or equal to 20 µm from a cell, it does not activate it. However, in the rest of the study, the stimulation is applied with a holographic approach, targeting 5 cells simultaneously instead of just one. As the holographic pattern of light could produce out-of-focus hot spots (absent in the single cell control), we don't know what is the extent of the contamination from non-targeted cells in this case. This is important because it would determine an objective criterion to exclude non-targeted but excited cells (last paragraph of the Result section: "For the stimulation condition, we excluded non-target cells that were within 15 µm distance of the target cells...")

      (2) A strength of this study comes from the design of the experimental protocol used to compare the activity in non-target co-tuned cells when the optogenetic stimulation is paired with their preferred tone versus a non-preferred pure tone. The difficulty lies in the co-occurrence of the rebalancing process and the adaptation to repeated auditory stimuli, especially when these auditory stimuli correspond to a cell's preferred pure tones. To distinguish between the two effects, the authors use a comparison with a control condition similar to the optogenetic stimulation conditions, except that the laser power is kept at 0 mW. The observed effect is shown as an extra reduction of activity in the condition with the optogenetic paired with the preferred tone, compared to the control condition. The specificity of this extra reduction when stimulation is synchronized with the preferred tone, but not with a non-preferred tone, is a potentially powerful result, as it points to an underlying mechanism that links the assemblies of cells that share the same preferred pure tones.<br /> The evidence for this specificity is shown in Figure 3A and 3D. However, the universality of this specificity is challenged by the fact that it is observed for 16kHz preferring cells, but not so clearly for 54kHz preferring cells: these 54kHz preferring cells also significantly (p = 0.044) reduce their response to 54kHz in the optogenetic stimulation condition applied to 16kHz preferring target cells compared to the control condition. The proposed explanation for this is the presence of many cells with a broad frequency tuning, meaning that these cells could have been categorized as 54kHz preferring cells, while they also responded significantly to a 16kHz pure tone. To account for this, the authors divide each category of pure tone cells into three subgroups with low, medium and high frequency preferences. Following the previous reasoning, one would expect at least the "high" subgroups to show a strong and significant specificity for an additional reduction only if the optogenetic stimulation is targeted to a group of cells with the same preferred frequency. Figure 3D fails to show this. The extra reduction for the "high" subgroups is significant only when the condition of opto-stimulation synchronized with the preferred frequency is compared to the control condition, but not when it is compared to the condition of opto-stimulation synchronized with the non-preferred frequency.<br /> Therefore, the claim that "these results indicate that the effect of holographic optogenetic stimulation depends not on the specific tuning of cells, but on the co-tuning between stimulated and non-stimulated neurons" (end of paragraph "Optogenetic holographic stimulation decreases activity in non-target co-tuned ensembles") seems somewhat exaggerated. Perhaps increasing the number of sessions in the 54kHz target cell optogenetic stimulation condition (12 FOV) to the number of sessions in the 16kHz target cell optogenetic stimulation condition (18 FOV) could help to reach significance levels consistent with this claim.

      (3) To interpret the results of this study, the authors suggest that mechanisms based on homeostatic signaling could be important to allow the rebalancing of the activity of assemblies of co-tuned neurons. In particular, the authors try to rule out the possibility that inhibition plays a central role. Both mechanisms could produce effects on short timescales, making them potential candidates. The authors quantify the spatial distribution of the balanced non-targeted cells and show that they are not localized in the vicinity of the targeted cells. They conclude that local inhibition is unlikely to be responsible for the observed effect. This argument raises some questions. The method used to quantify spatial distribution calculates the minimum distance of a non-target cell to any target cell. If local inhibition is activated by the closest target cell, one would expect the decrease in activity to be stronger for non-target cells with a small minimum distance and to fade away for larger minimum distances. This is not what the authors observe (Figure 4B), so they reject inhibition as a plausible explanation. However, their quantification doesn't exclude the possibility that non-target cells in the minimum distance range could also be close and connected to the other 4 target cells, thus masking any inhibitory effect mediated by the closest target cell. In addition, the authors should provide a quantitative estimate of the range of local inhibition in layers 2/3 of the mouse auditory cortex to compare with the range of distances examined in this study (< 300 µm). Finally, the possibility that some target cells could be inhibitory cells themselves is considered unlikely by the authors, given the proportions of excitatory and inhibitory neurons in the upper cortical layers. On the other hand, it should be acknowledged that inhibitory cells are more electrically compact, making them easier to be activated optogenetically with low laser power.

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      Simple dropdown menus for each category, which make the website easy to sort through and orderly.

    1. 七种灵质(Qualitäten)

      你问的是雅各布·波墨(Jakob Böhme)提出的“七种灵质”(Qualitäten)的概念。这是他神秘主义宇宙论的核心,用来描述宇宙和人类内在的不同力量或属性。理解这七种灵质是理解波墨思想的关键。

      需要注意的是,波墨的语言晦涩难懂,他使用的术语具有多重含义和象征意义。因此,对七种灵质的解释也存在不同的解读方式。以下是一种较为常见的解释:

      七种灵质(Qualitäten):

      波墨认为,宇宙的起源并非完全和谐,而是一种内在的冲突和“愤怒”(Zorn)。这种“愤怒”并非负面情绪,而是创造力的源泉,推动着宇宙的演化和发展。七种灵质就是这种“愤怒”的不同表现形式,它们相互作用、相互转化,构成了宇宙万物的多样性。

      这七种灵质并非按照线性的顺序依次产生,而是同时存在并相互影响的。它们可以被理解为宇宙的不同维度或面向。

      以下是七种灵质的详细解释:

      1. 收缩性/黑暗/苦涩(Zusammenziehung/Dunkelheit/Bitterkeit): 这是最初的灵质,代表着一种收缩、黑暗和寒冷的力量,是物质性的基础。它象征着原始的混沌、黑暗和空虚,是创造的潜在力量。它也被称为“苦涩”,因为它代表着一种内在的痛苦和渴望,是推动创造的动力。

      2. 推动性/运动/甜蜜(Trieb/Bewegung/Süßigkeit): 这是与第一种灵质相对的力量,代表着一种扩张、运动和温暖的力量。它象征着渴望、驱动和生命力,是推动创造从潜在走向现实的力量。它也被称为“甜蜜”,因为它代表着一种满足和快乐,是创造的目标。

      3. 旋转性/痛苦/酸涩(Drehung/Qual/Säure): 这是前两种灵质相互作用产生的力量,代表着一种旋转、痛苦和酸涩的力量。它象征着冲突、挣扎和痛苦,是创造过程中不可避免的阶段。它也被称为“酸涩”,因为它代表着一种不和谐和冲突,是推动事物进一步发展的动力。

      4. 火/闪电/火焰(Feuer/Blitz/Flamme): 这是前三种灵质相互作用达到高潮时产生的力量,代表着一种爆发、闪电和火焰的力量。它象征着能量、光芒和净化,是创造的高峰和转折点。它代表着一种强烈的力量,既能创造也能毁灭。

      5. 爱/光明/和谐(Liebe/Licht/Harmonie): 这是克服前四种灵质的冲突后产生的力量,代表着一种爱、光明和和谐的力量。它象征着秩序、统一和完美,是创造的最终目标。它代表着一种平静和和谐的状态,是所有冲突的最终解决。

      6. 声音/言语/表达(Klang/Wort/Ausdruck): 这是第五种灵质的展开和表达,代表着一种声音、言语和表达的力量。它象征着沟通、交流和启示,是创造的媒介和传播。它代表着一种清晰和明确的表达,是内在思想的外在呈现。

      7. 形体/物质/存在(Gestalt/Materie/Existenz): 这是所有前六种灵质的最终结果,代表着一种形体、物质和存在的力量。它象征着具体化、显现和存在,是创造的最终完成。它代表着一种稳定和持久的状态,是所有变化的最终结果。

      七种灵质的相互关系:

      这七种灵质并非孤立存在,而是相互作用、相互转化、相互影响的。它们构成了一个动态的循环,推动着宇宙的演化和发展。它们可以被理解为:

      • 对立统一: 每一种灵质都包含着对立的双方,例如收缩与扩张、痛苦与快乐。
      • 相互转化: 灵质之间可以相互转化,例如收缩可以转化为推动,痛苦可以转化为爱。
      • 循环往复: 灵质的相互作用构成了一个循环往复的过程,推动着宇宙的永恒变化。

      七种灵质与人类:

      波墨认为,这七种灵质也存在于人类的内在世界中,影响着人类的性格、情感和行为。通过认识和理解这七种灵质,可以更好地认识自我,并达到内在的和谐。

      总结:

      七种灵质是波墨宇宙论的核心,它们描述了宇宙和人类内在的不同力量或属性,以及这些力量之间的相互作用和转化。理解这七种灵质需要结合波墨的其他思想,例如“愤怒”、“符合对立”等,才能更全面地把握其深刻内涵。由于波墨的语言晦涩难懂,对七种灵质的解释也存在不同的解读方式。以上解释是一种较为常见的理解方式,希望能对你有所帮助。

    1. 柏拉图的绝对理型

      黑格尔的“绝对理念”与柏拉图的“理型”之间存在着密切的关系,但并非简单的等同。黑格尔深受柏拉图的影响,并将柏拉图的“理型”纳入到自己的哲学体系中,进行了改造和发展。可以说,黑格尔的“绝对理念”是柏拉图“理型”的一种扬弃和超越。

      为了更清晰地阐述两者之间的关系,我们分别来探讨这两个概念,并进行比较:

      1. 柏拉图的“理型”(εἶδος,eidos):

      柏拉图认为,我们所感知的现实世界只是一个摹本,真正真实存在的是超越感官世界的“理型”世界。“理型”是事物的原型和本质,例如“正义”、“美”、“善”等,它们是永恒不变、完美无缺的。

      “理型”的几个关键特征:

      • 客观存在: “理型”不依赖于人的主观意识而存在,它们是客观的、独立的实体。
      • 永恒不变: “理型”超越了时间和空间的限制,是永恒不变的。
      • 感官世界是其摹本: 我们所感知的现实世界只是“理型”的不完美的摹本,是不断变化和流动的。
      • 认识的最高对象: 只有通过理性思维,才能认识“理型”,达到真正的知识。

      2. 黑格尔的“绝对理念”(absoluter Begriff/absoluter Geist):

      黑格尔的“绝对理念”并非一个静止的、先验的存在,而是一个自我运动、自我发展的过程。它通过“正题-反题-合题”的辩证法不断地自我否定、自我超越,最终达到自身的完善。

      “绝对理念”的几个关键特征:

      • 自我运动和发展: “绝对理念”不是静止的,而是一个充满内在矛盾和冲突的动态过程。
      • 辩证法的运动: “绝对理念”通过“正题-反题-合题”的辩证法进行自我发展,不断地扬弃和统一对立面。
      • 包含一切有限事物: “绝对理念”并非外在于有限事物的存在,而是包含了所有有限事物,并通过辩证法将其扬弃和统一起来。
      • 理性认识的对象: 黑格尔强调通过理性的辩证法来认识“绝对理念”,排斥任何非理性的认识方式。

      3. “理型”与“绝对理念”的比较:

      虽然两者都指向一个最高的、终极的实在,但它们之间存在着重要的区别:

      | 特征 | 柏拉图的“理型” | 黑格尔的“绝对理念” | | ----------- | --------------------------------------------------- | ----------------------------------------------------- | | 存在方式 | 静止的、先验的、外在于感官世界的实体 | 动态的、自我发展的过程,包含一切有限事物 | | 运动方式 | 没有内在的运动和发展 | 通过“正题-反题-合题”的辩证法进行自我运动和发展 | | 认识方式 | 通过理性思维(尤其是最高的“善”的理型,需要特殊的领悟) | 通过理性的辩证法 | | 与感官世界的关系 | 感官世界是其不完美的摹本 | 包含一切感官世界,并将其扬弃和统一起来 |

      4. “理型”如何被包含在“绝对理念”中:

      我们可以说,柏拉图的“理型”在黑格尔的哲学体系中被扬弃和包含在“绝对理念”之中。

      • 扬弃: 黑格尔批评柏拉图的“理型”过于抽象和静态,与感官世界割裂开来,无法解释感官世界的运动和变化。他认为,“理型”应该是一个动态的、自我发展的过程,而不是一个静止的实体。
      • 包含: 黑格尔并没有完全否定“理型”的重要性,而是将其视为“绝对理念”的一个环节或阶段。他认为,“绝对理念”通过自身的辩证运动,从抽象的普遍性(类似于“理型”)走向具体的特殊性,最终又回到更高的普遍性。

      用更通俗的语言来说明:

      我们可以把“理型”比喻成一些“概念的模板”,例如“圆形”、“正义”、“美”等。柏拉图认为,现实世界中的圆形物体只是对“圆形”这个模板的不完美模仿。而黑格尔则认为,“绝对理念”就像一个不断发展的“概念的生命”,它包含了所有可能的“概念模板”,并通过自身的运动不断地创造出新的概念和新的世界。

      总结:

      黑格尔的“绝对理念”与柏拉图的“理型”之间存在着密切的关系,但并非简单的重复。黑格尔通过辩证法扬弃并发展了柏拉图的“理型”思想,将其纳入到更加动态和历史性的哲学框架中。可以说,黑格尔的“绝对理念”是柏拉图“理型”的一种重要的发展和超越。

      希望以上解释能够帮助你更好地理解两者之间的关系。

    2. 与 中国哲学的道

      黑格尔的“绝对理念”与柏拉图的“理型”之间存在着密切的关系,但并非简单的等同。黑格尔深受柏拉图的影响,并将柏拉图的“理型”纳入到自己的哲学体系中,进行了改造和发展。可以说,黑格尔的“绝对理念”是柏拉图“理型”的一种扬弃和超越。

      为了更清晰地阐述两者之间的关系,我们分别来探讨这两个概念,并进行比较:

      1. 柏拉图的“理型”(εἶδος,eidos):

      柏拉图认为,我们所感知的现实世界只是一个摹本,真正真实存在的是超越感官世界的“理型”世界。“理型”是事物的原型和本质,例如“正义”、“美”、“善”等,它们是永恒不变、完美无缺的。

      “理型”的几个关键特征:

      • 客观存在: “理型”不依赖于人的主观意识而存在,它们是客观的、独立的实体。
      • 永恒不变: “理型”超越了时间和空间的限制,是永恒不变的。
      • 感官世界是其摹本: 我们所感知的现实世界只是“理型”的不完美的摹本,是不断变化和流动的。
      • 认识的最高对象: 只有通过理性思维,才能认识“理型”,达到真正的知识。

      2. 黑格尔的“绝对理念”(absoluter Begriff/absoluter Geist):

      黑格尔的“绝对理念”并非一个静止的、先验的存在,而是一个自我运动、自我发展的过程。它通过“正题-反题-合题”的辩证法不断地自我否定、自我超越,最终达到自身的完善。

      “绝对理念”的几个关键特征:

      • 自我运动和发展: “绝对理念”不是静止的,而是一个充满内在矛盾和冲突的动态过程。
      • 辩证法的运动: “绝对理念”通过“正题-反题-合题”的辩证法进行自我发展,不断地扬弃和统一对立面。
      • 包含一切有限事物: “绝对理念”并非外在于有限事物的存在,而是包含了所有有限事物,并通过辩证法将其扬弃和统一起来。
      • 理性认识的对象: 黑格尔强调通过理性的辩证法来认识“绝对理念”,排斥任何非理性的认识方式。

      3. “理型”与“绝对理念”的比较:

      虽然两者都指向一个最高的、终极的实在,但它们之间存在着重要的区别:

      | 特征 | 柏拉图的“理型” | 黑格尔的“绝对理念” | | ----------- | --------------------------------------------------- | ----------------------------------------------------- | | 存在方式 | 静止的、先验的、外在于感官世界的实体 | 动态的、自我发展的过程,包含一切有限事物 | | 运动方式 | 没有内在的运动和发展 | 通过“正题-反题-合题”的辩证法进行自我运动和发展 | | 认识方式 | 通过理性思维(尤其是最高的“善”的理型,需要特殊的领悟) | 通过理性的辩证法 | | 与感官世界的关系 | 感官世界是其不完美的摹本 | 包含一切感官世界,并将其扬弃和统一起来 |

      4. “理型”如何被包含在“绝对理念”中:

      我们可以说,柏拉图的“理型”在黑格尔的哲学体系中被扬弃和包含在“绝对理念”之中。

      • 扬弃: 黑格尔批评柏拉图的“理型”过于抽象和静态,与感官世界割裂开来,无法解释感官世界的运动和变化。他认为,“理型”应该是一个动态的、自我发展的过程,而不是一个静止的实体。
      • 包含: 黑格尔并没有完全否定“理型”的重要性,而是将其视为“绝对理念”的一个环节或阶段。他认为,“绝对理念”通过自身的辩证运动,从抽象的普遍性(类似于“理型”)走向具体的特殊性,最终又回到更高的普遍性。

      用更通俗的语言来说明:

      我们可以把“理型”比喻成一些“概念的模板”,例如“圆形”、“正义”、“美”等。柏拉图认为,现实世界中的圆形物体只是对“圆形”这个模板的不完美模仿。而黑格尔则认为,“绝对理念”就像一个不断发展的“概念的生命”,它包含了所有可能的“概念模板”,并通过自身的运动不断地创造出新的概念和新的世界。

      总结:

      黑格尔的“绝对理念”与柏拉图的“理型”之间存在着密切的关系,但并非简单的重复。黑格尔通过辩证法扬弃并发展了柏拉图的“理型”思想,将其纳入到更加动态和历史性的哲学框架中。可以说,黑格尔的“绝对理念”是柏拉图“理型”的一种重要的发展和超越。

      希望以上解释能够帮助你更好地理解两者之间的关系。

    3. 绝对同一 与 中国哲学的 “道”

      你提出“绝对同一类似中国哲学的‘道’”这个观点非常精辟,抓住了东西方哲学中对终极实在的相似探索。谢林的“绝对同一”与道家的“道”确实存在许多共通之处,但也需要注意它们之间的区别。

      为了更清晰地阐述这种相似性和差异性,我们分别来探讨这两个概念:

      1. 谢林的“绝对同一”:

      谢林在“同一哲学”时期(约1800-1804年)提出的“绝对同一”,指的是一个先于一切对立(例如主体与客体、精神与自然)的绝对的“一”,它是所有存在的根源和基础。这个“绝对同一”既非纯粹的精神,也非纯粹的自然,而是超越两者之上的统一体。

      “绝对同一”的几个关键特征:

      • 先于一切对立: 它在任何区分和对立产生之前就已存在,是所有区分和对立的根源。
      • 不可描述和定义: 它超越了任何概念和语言的限制,无法用有限的理性思维来完全把握。
      • 一切存在的根源: 所有的存在都从“绝对同一”中流溢或分化出来。
      • 通过“理智直观”把握: 谢林认为,要把握“绝对同一”,需要通过一种特殊的认识方式,即“理智直观”,类似于一种神秘的直觉或灵感。

      2. 道家哲学的“道”:

      “道”是道家哲学的核心概念,指宇宙万物的本源和运行规律。它也是超越一切具体事物、不可感知的存在。

      “道”的几个关键特征:

      • 先于天地万物: “道”在天地万物产生之前就已存在,是宇宙的本始和根源。《老子》中说:“有物混成,先天地生。寂兮寥兮,独立而不改,周行而不殆,可以为天地母。”
      • 不可名状和定义: “道”超越了语言和概念的限制,无法用有限的语言来完全描述。《老子》中说:“道可道,非常道。名可名,非常名。”
      • 万物之母: “道”是宇宙万物的根源和母亲,一切事物都从“道”中产生,并遵循“道”的规律运行。《老子》中说:“道生一,一生二,二生三,三生万物。”
      • 通过体悟和顺应: 道家认为,要认识“道”,不能仅仅依靠理性思维,更重要的是通过内省、冥想等方式来体悟和顺应“道”的运行规律。

      3. “绝对同一”与“道”的相似性:

      可以看出,“绝对同一”与“道”之间存在着显著的相似性:

      • 都是终极实在: 它们都指向一个超越一切经验和概念的终极实在,是所有存在的根源。
      • 都不可描述和定义: 它们都超越了语言和概念的限制,无法用有限的理性思维来完全把握。
      • 都是一切存在的根源: 所有的存在都从它们中产生或流溢出来。
      • 都强调非理性或超越理性的认识方式: 谢林的“理智直观”与道家的体悟和顺应都强调了一种超越理性思维的认识方式。

      4. “绝对同一”与“道”的区别:

      虽然存在这些相似性,但“绝对同一”与“道”之间也存在一些重要的区别:

      • 哲学语境: “绝对同一”是谢林在其哲学体系中提出的一个概念,带有明显的西方哲学思辨的特征。而“道”则植根于中国传统文化和思想,具有更丰富的文化内涵。
      • 强调重点: 谢林更强调“绝对同一”作为所有对立面的统一和根源,而道家则更强调“道”作为宇宙万物运行的规律和自然法则。
      • 与宗教的关系: 谢林的“绝对同一”与基督教神学有一定的关联,而道家的“道”则相对独立于宗教信仰。

      总结:

      “绝对同一”与“道”确实存在许多相似之处,它们都指向一个超越经验和概念的终极实在,是所有存在的根源。但它们也存在一些重要的区别,例如哲学语境、强调重点和与宗教的关系等。

      将“绝对同一”与“道”进行比较,有助于我们更深入地理解东西方哲学中对终极实在的探索。它们虽然使用的概念和表达方式不同,但都反映了人类对宇宙和人生终极问题的思考。

      因此,可以说“绝对同一” 类似 中国哲学的“道”,但并非完全等同。它们是不同文化背景下对同一问题的不同解答。

    4. 绝对同一 与 黑格尔的 绝对理念

      你问的“绝对同一”对应黑格尔哲学中的哪个概念,这是一个很好的问题,它涉及到谢林和黑格尔哲学思想的比较,以及对“绝对”的不同理解。简单来说,“绝对同一”在谢林那里更接近于一种神秘直观的体验,而在黑格尔那里则被理性地扬弃和包含在“绝对理念”之中。

      为了更清晰地解释这一点,我们分别来看:

      1. 谢林的“绝对同一”:

      谢林在“同一哲学”时期(约1800-1804年)提出了“绝对同一”的概念。他认为,存在着一个先于一切对立(例如主体与客体、精神与自然)的绝对的“一”,它是所有存在的根源和基础。这个“绝对同一”既非纯粹的精神,也非纯粹的自然,而是超越两者之上的统一体。

      谢林认为,要把握这个“绝对同一”,不能仅仅依靠有限的理性思维,还需要通过一种特殊的认识方式,他称之为“理智直观”(intellektuelle Anschauung)。这种“理智直观”类似于一种神秘的直觉或灵感,可以使我们直接体验到“绝对同一”的临在。

      2. 黑格尔的“绝对理念”:

      黑格尔的哲学核心是“绝对理念”(absoluter Begriff或absoluter Geist),它并非一个静止的实体,而是一个自我运动、自我发展的过程。黑格尔认为,事物的发展是按照“正题-反题-合题”的辩证法进行的,通过不断的自我否定和自我超越,最终达到“绝对理念”的实现。

      “绝对理念”包含了所有有限的存在和概念,并将其扬弃和统一起来。它既是逻辑的、理性的,也是历史的、现实的。

      3. “绝对同一”与“绝对理念”的比较:

      虽然谢林的“绝对同一”和黑格尔的“绝对理念”都指向一个最高的、终极的实在,但它们之间存在着重要的区别:

      • 认识方式: 谢林强调通过“理智直观”来把握“绝对同一”,这带有一种神秘主义的色彩。而黑格尔则强调通过理性的辩证法来认识“绝对理念”,排斥任何非理性的认识方式。
      • 存在方式: 谢林的“绝对同一”更接近于一个静止的、先验的存在,而黑格尔的“绝对理念”则是一个动态的、自我发展的过程。
      • 与有限事物的关系: 谢林的“绝对同一”与有限事物之间存在着一种流溢或下降的关系,而黑格尔的“绝对理念”则包含了所有有限事物,并通过辩证法将其扬弃和统一起来。

      4. “绝对同一”如何被包含在“绝对理念”中:

      我们可以说,谢林的“绝对同一”在黑格尔的哲学体系中被扬弃和包含在“绝对理念”之中。

      • 扬弃: 黑格尔批评谢林的“绝对同一”过于抽象和空洞,缺乏具体的内涵和发展过程。他认为,仅仅停留在“绝对同一”的层面,无法解释世界的丰富性和多样性。
      • 包含: 黑格尔并没有完全否定“绝对同一”的存在,而是将其视为“绝对理念”的一个环节或阶段。他认为,“绝对理念”通过自身的辩证运动,从抽象的同一走向具体的差异和对立,最终又回到更高的统一。

      用更通俗的语言来说明:

      我们可以把“绝对同一”比喻成一个“原点”,它是所有事物的起点和基础。而“绝对理念”则是一个不断展开和丰富的“圆”,它包含了无数个点和线,并最终又回归到“原点”。“原点”虽然重要,但只有通过“圆”的展开,才能展现其真正的意义和价值。

      总结:

      “绝对同一”在谢林那里更强调一种神秘直观的体验,指向一个超越一切对立的绝对存在。而黑格尔的“绝对理念”则是一个通过辩证运动自我发展和完善的过程,它包含了所有有限事物,并将其扬弃和统一起来。“绝对同一”可以被视为“绝对理念”的一个抽象的起点或环节。

      因此,虽然两者都涉及“绝对”,但其内涵和在各自哲学体系中的地位是不同的。黑格尔通过辩证法扬弃并发展了谢林的“绝对同一”思想,将其纳入到更加系统和理性的哲学框架中。

    5. 波墨对谢林的影响

      雅各布·波墨对弗里德里希·威廉·谢林的思想产生了深远的影响,尤其是在谢林哲学的早期和中期阶段,即“自然哲学”时期和“同一哲学”时期。波墨的神秘主义思想为谢林提供了重要的灵感和思想资源,尤其是在以下几个方面:

      1. 自然的动态观:

      • 波墨的影响: 波墨认为自然并非静止的、死的物质,而是一个充满活力和创造力的过程,其中各种对立的力量相互作用、相互转化。他用“愤怒”(Zorn)来形容这种内在的冲突和动力,认为它是宇宙演化的根本原因。
      • 谢林的呼应: 谢林在他的自然哲学中也强调自然的动态性和创造性,认为自然是一个自我组织、自我发展的有机体。他受到了波墨的影响,将自然视为一种不断生成和演化的过程,其中对立的力量相互作用,推动着自然的进步。

      2. 对立统一的思想:

      • 波墨的影响: 波墨强调对立面的统一,认为光明与黑暗、善与恶、肯定与否定等对立面是相互依存、不可分割的。这种对立统一的思想是其宇宙论的核心。
      • 谢林的呼应: 谢林也深受这种思想的影响,并在他的哲学中发展了辩证法的思想,认为事物的发展是通过“正题-反题-合题”的辩证过程进行的。虽然谢林的辩证法比波墨的更加系统和严谨,但其思想根源可以追溯到波墨。

      3. 内在精神的重要性:

      • 波墨的影响: 波墨强调每个人内在都蕴藏着一种“光明”,通过内在的修行和冥想,可以开启这种“光明”,从而认识到宇宙的奥秘。
      • 谢林的呼应: 谢林也强调内在精神的重要性,认为通过直觉和灵感可以把握到自然的内在本质。他受到了波墨的影响,更加关注人的内在精神世界,并将其视为认识自然的重要途径。

      4. 上帝与自然的关系:

      • 波墨的影响: 波墨区分了“神性”和“上帝”,认为“神性”是超越一切存在和属性的绝对,而“上帝”则是“神性”在现象界的显现。这种区分影响了谢林对上帝与自然关系的思考。
      • 谢林的呼应: 谢林在他的哲学中也探讨了上帝与自然的关系,他认为自然是上帝的自我显现和自我启示,上帝通过自然来展现其自身的无限性和创造力。

      5. 对谢林“同一哲学”的影响:

      在谢林的“同一哲学”时期,他试图建立一个统一的哲学体系,将自然和精神、主体和客体、有限和无限等对立面统一起来。波墨的思想对谢林构建“同一哲学”起到了重要的作用:

      • 绝对同一: 谢林认为存在着一个“绝对同一”,它是所有对立面的统一和根源。这与波墨的“神性”概念有一定的相似之处。
      • 通过直观把握绝对: 谢林认为,要把握“绝对同一”,不能仅仅依靠理性思维,还需要通过直观和灵感等方式。这与波墨强调内在体验和“光明”的思想相呼应。

      总结:

      波墨对谢林的影响是多方面的,主要体现在自然的动态观、对立统一的思想、内在精神的重要性以及上帝与自然的关系等方面。波墨的思想为谢林构建其自然哲学和同一哲学提供了重要的思想资源。虽然谢林对波墨的思想进行了改造和发展,并将其纳入到更加系统和严谨的哲学体系中,但我们仍然可以清晰地看到波墨对谢林的影响。

      以下是一些更具体的例子:

      • 谢林在《论世界灵魂》(Von der Weltseele)等著作中,明显受到了波墨关于自然和精神相互作用的思想的影响。
      • 谢林的“绝对同一”概念,与波墨的“神性”概念有一定的相似之处。
      • 谢林对直观和灵感的强调,也与波墨强调内在体验和“光明”的思想相呼应。

      通过研究谢林和波墨的著作,我们可以更深入地了解波墨是如何影响谢林的,以及这种影响在谢林哲学中的具体体现。

    6. 类似中国的 阴阳相生相克之力,黑格尔的对立统一矛盾之力, 赫拉克里特的 流变

      你将波墨的“愤怒”与东方哲学的“阴阳互动”联系起来,这是一个非常深刻且富有洞察力的见解。这确实有助于我们更好地理解波墨思想中“对立统一”的动态本质。

      为了更清晰地阐述这种关联,我们来详细比较一下波墨的“愤怒”与东方哲学的“阴阳”:

      1. 波墨的“愤怒”(Zorn):

      在波墨的宇宙论中,“愤怒”并非我们通常理解的负面情绪,而是一种原始的、创造性的力量,是宇宙万物产生的根源。它体现了一种内在的冲突和对立,推动着宇宙的演化和发展。

      “愤怒”的几个关键特征:

      • 原始的驱动力: 它是宇宙最初的动力,是创造和变化的源泉。
      • 对立的统一: 它包含着对立的双方,例如光明与黑暗、肯定与否定,这些对立面相互作用、相互制约,构成了宇宙的动态平衡。
      • 自我否定和自我肯定: “愤怒”体现了一种自我否定和自我肯定的过程,通过否定自身,从而产生新的存在。

      2. 东方哲学的“阴阳”:

      “阴阳”是中国古代哲学的重要概念,用来描述宇宙中相互对立又相互依存的两种基本力量或属性。

      “阴阳”的几个关键特征:

      • 相互对立: 阴阳是相互对立的,例如天与地、日与月、男与女、动与静、刚与柔等。
      • 相互依存: 阴阳是相互依存的,没有阴就没有阳,没有阳也就没有阴。它们共同构成了宇宙的完整性。
      • 相互转化: 阴阳是相互转化的,阴可以转化为阳,阳也可以转化为阴。这种转化推动着事物的不断变化和发展。
      • 动态平衡: 阴阳之间保持着一种动态的平衡,这种平衡是宇宙和谐的基础。

      3. “愤怒”与“阴阳”的对应关系:

      可以看出,波墨的“愤怒”与东方哲学的“阴阳”之间存在着显著的对应关系:

      • 都是宇宙的本源动力: “愤怒”是宇宙创造和变化的源泉,“阴阳”是宇宙万物运行的规律。
      • 都体现了对立统一: “愤怒”包含着对立的双方,“阴阳”也是相互对立又相互依存的。
      • 都强调动态变化: “愤怒”推动着宇宙的演化和发展,“阴阳”的相互转化也推动着事物的不断变化。

      更详细的对应:

      | 特征 | 波墨的“愤怒” | 东方哲学的“阴阳” | | -------- | ----------------------------------- | -------------------------------------- | | 本质 | 原始的创造力,内在的冲突和对立 | 宇宙中相互对立又相互依存的两种基本力量 | | 作用 | 推动宇宙的演化和发展 | 构成宇宙的动态平衡,推动事物变化 | | 体现 | 光明与黑暗、肯定与否定等对立面的相互作用 | 天地、日月、男女、动静、刚柔等 |

      4. “矛盾的力量”的理解:

      你提到的“矛盾的力量”非常贴切地概括了“愤怒”和“阴阳”的共同特征。它们都强调,矛盾和冲突并非完全是负面的,而是事物发展和变化的内在动力。没有矛盾就没有运动,没有冲突就没有创造。

      5. 与其他哲学的比较:

      这种“矛盾的力量”的思想也与赫拉克利特的“流变”思想、黑格尔的“辩证法”等西方哲学思想有所关联,都强调事物在永恒的变化和运动之中。

      总结:

      将波墨的“愤怒”与东方哲学的“阴阳互动”联系起来,是一个非常有洞察力的见解。它们都体现了一种“矛盾的力量”,强调对立面的相互作用和相互转化,是宇宙万物变化和发展的根本原因。这种跨文化的比较有助于我们更全面地理解不同文化中对宇宙和人生的思考。

      希望以上解释能够帮助你更好地理解波墨的“愤怒”与东方哲学“阴阳”之间的关联。

    7. 波墨对黑格尔的影响

      你这种感觉非常敏锐,黑格尔的思想确实深受雅各布·波墨的影响,尤其是在“对立统一”的思想方面。波墨的思想为黑格尔的辩证法提供了重要的思想资源。为了更清晰地阐述这一点,我们来详细比较一下波墨和黑格尔在“对立统一”思想上的异同:

      1. 波墨的对立统一:

      波墨认为,宇宙的起源并非完全和谐,而是源于一种内在的冲突或“愤怒”(Zorn)。这种“愤怒”并非负面情绪,而是创造力的源泉,推动着宇宙的演化和发展。他提出了七种灵质(Qualitäten)的概念,用来描述宇宙和人类内在的不同力量或属性。这些灵质相互作用、相互转化,构成了宇宙万物的多样性。

      波墨的对立统一思想主要体现在以下几个方面:

      • 对立面是相互依存的: 他认为光明与黑暗、善与恶、肯定与否定等对立面是相互依存、不可分割的,没有黑暗就没有光明,没有恶就没有善。
      • 对立面是相互转化的: 他认为对立面之间存在着相互转化的关系,例如光明可以转化为黑暗,善可以转化为恶。这种转化推动着宇宙的不断变化和发展。
      • 冲突是创造的动力: 他认为冲突和对立是创造的动力,没有冲突就没有创造,没有对立就没有统一。

      2. 黑格尔的辩证法:

      黑格尔的辩证法是其哲学的核心,它是一种认识事物发展规律的方法论。黑格尔认为,事物的发展是按照“正题-反题-合题”的规律进行的:

      • 正题(These): 指事物本身所固有的肯定方面。
      • 反题(Antithese): 指事物本身所固有的否定方面,是对正题的否定。
      • 合题(Synthese): 指正题和反题的统一,是事物发展的新阶段,它既扬弃了正题和反题的片面性,又保留了它们的合理成分。

      黑格尔认为,事物的发展就是通过这种“正题-反题-合题”的不断循环,不断地自我否定、自我超越,最终达到绝对理念的实现。

      3. 波墨对黑格尔的影响:

      可以看出,波墨的对立统一思想对黑格尔的辩证法产生了重要的影响:

      • 对立面是事物发展的内在动力: 波墨认为冲突和对立是创造的动力,黑格尔认为矛盾是事物发展的内在动力,两者思想一致。
      • 对立面是相互转化的: 波墨认为对立面可以相互转化,黑格尔认为正题和反题通过斗争达到统一,形成新的阶段,也体现了对立面的转化。
      • 统一是更高层次的综合: 波墨认为对立面的统一是一种更高层次的和谐,黑格尔认为合题是正题和反题的扬弃和统一,也体现了统一是更高层次的综合。

      4. 两者的区别:

      虽然黑格尔深受波墨的影响,但两者之间也存在一些区别:

      • 理论体系的完整性: 黑格尔建立了一套完整的辩证法体系,将其应用于逻辑学、自然哲学、精神哲学等各个领域,而波墨的思想则相对更加零散和神秘。
      • 表达方式: 黑格尔使用严谨的哲学语言进行论述,而波墨则更多地使用象征主义和隐喻。
      • 侧重点: 波墨更侧重于神秘体验和宗教情感的表达,而黑格尔更侧重于对历史和理性的分析。

      总结:

      黑格尔的辩证法思想确实深受雅各布·波墨的影响,尤其是在“对立统一”的思想方面。波墨的思想为黑格尔的辩证法提供了重要的思想资源,例如对立面是事物发展的内在动力、对立面是相互转化的、统一是更高层次的综合等等。但两者在理论体系的完整性、表达方式和侧重点上存在一定的差异。

      可以说,波墨是黑格尔辩证法的先驱之一,他的思想为黑格尔的辩证法奠定了一定的基础。通过比较两者的思想,我们可以更深入地理解西方哲学中“对立统一”思想的发展脉络。

    1. How we migrated onto K8s in less than 12 months
      • Figma's Initial Infrastructure Challenges:

        • Figma's monolithic architecture struggled with resource allocation inefficiencies and limited scalability.
        • High traffic spikes from collaborative design workflows required more robust solutions for resource autoscaling and failover.
      • Why Kubernetes Was Chosen:

        • Kubernetes' container orchestration capabilities promised better resource management and service isolation.
        • Features like Horizontal Pod Autoscaling (HPA), robust networking via Kubernetes Services, and support for StatefulSets made it an ideal fit for Figma’s needs.
        • The platform also wanted better alignment with cloud-native practices and modern CI/CD workflows.
      • Incremental Migration Approach:

        • Step 1: Non-Critical Services: Figma migrated stateless services first, allowing experimentation without risking core functionality.
        • Step 2: Custom Tooling: Internal tooling was built to manage Kubernetes manifests and automate Helm chart creation for standardization.
        • Step 3: Stateful Services: For databases and other stateful components, Figma relied on Kubernetes' StatefulSets and persistent volumes (PVs) to ensure data integrity during the migration.
        • Step 4: Observability Enhancements: Kubernetes-native tools like Prometheus and Grafana were integrated to provide detailed metrics and system insights.
      • Key Technical Adjustments During Migration:

        • Service Discovery: Transitioned to Kubernetes-native DNS for internal service communication, replacing legacy methods.
        • Load Balancing: Leveraged Kubernetes Ingress and external load balancers (e.g., NGINX or cloud-native solutions) for traffic routing.
        • Networking Complexity: Resolved challenges around multi-cluster networking using Kubernetes CNI plugins like Calico.
        • Resource Management: Used Resource Quotas and Limits to prevent pod overcommitment and optimize cluster utilization.
      • Challenges Faced:

        • Stateful Services: Ensuring zero-downtime migration for databases required careful orchestration of PersistentVolumeClaims (PVCs) and StatefulSets.
        • Networking: Handling cross-region traffic and external dependencies required tweaking Kubernetes Ingress configurations.
        • Resource Constraints: Balancing costs and performance involved tuning cluster-autoscaler configurations and evaluating node pool setups.
      • Benefits Realized Post-Migration:

        • Scalability: Kubernetes' HPA allowed Figma to scale pods dynamically based on traffic patterns, ensuring consistent performance.
        • Deployment Efficiency: CI/CD pipelines integrated seamlessly with Kubernetes, enabling faster and more reliable rollouts using tools like Argo CD.
        • Reliability: Self-healing capabilities, such as pod restarts and node failover, reduced downtime during failures.
        • Observability: Improved system monitoring with Kubernetes' native metrics server and integrations with Prometheus and Grafana.
      • Future Enhancements Planned:

        • Service Mesh Integration: Adoption of Istio or Linkerd to enhance observability, security (e.g., mutual TLS), and traffic management.
        • Cost Optimization: Further tuning autoscaling policies and resource limits to minimize waste.
        • Edge Improvements: Deploying Kubernetes clusters closer to end-users for reduced latency, potentially using Kubernetes' Cluster Federation.
    1. 王弼

      王弼(226年—249年),字辅嗣,三国时期曹魏山阳郡高平(今山东邹城)人,是魏晋玄学的奠基人和代表人物之一,与何晏并称“王何”。他以注释《老子》和《周易》而闻名,其哲学思想对中国思想史产生了深远的影响。要详细介绍王弼的哲学思想,需要从以下几个方面展开:

      1. “以无为本”的本体论:

      王弼玄学的核心是“以无为本”。他继承并发展了老子的“道”的思想,认为“无”是宇宙万物的本源和本体。“无”并非指绝对的虚无,而是指超越一切具体事物、不可名状、不可感知的存在。它是“有”的根据和基础,“有”是从“无”中产生的。“夫物之所以生,功之所以成,皆由乎无也。”(《老子注》)意思是说,万物之所以能够产生,功业之所以能够成就,都根源于“无”。

      2. “崇本息末”的认识论和方法论:

      基于“以无为本”的本体论,王弼提出了“崇本息末”的认识论和方法论。他认为,要认识事物的本质,就必须超越现象的纷扰,探求其根本。“本”即“无”,“末”即“有”。只有把握了“无”,才能真正理解“有”。“忘象以求其意,义斯见矣。”(《周易略例》)意思是说,要忘记表象而去寻求其意义,意义自然就显现出来了。

      3. “圣人无情”与“圣人有情”的辩证:

      何晏提出了“圣人无情”论,认为圣人是体道之人,其心境是虚静无为的,没有喜怒哀乐等情感波动。王弼最初也赞同“圣人无情”,但后来逐渐发展出“圣人有情”的思想。他认为,圣人虽然能够超越情感的束缚,保持内心的平静和清明,但并非没有情感,而是“应物而无累于物”,即能够顺应事物的发展变化而产生相应的情感,但不会被情感所困扰。这是一种更为辩证和完善的圣人观。

      4. 注释《老子》和《周易》:

      王弼最重要的贡献是对《老子》和《周易》的注释。他摒弃了汉代象数易学的繁琐解释,以“无”的思想为指导,重新阐释了《老子》和《周易》的义理,开创了义理玄学的新方向。他的注释简洁明了,义理深刻,对后世影响深远。

      • 《老子注》: 他以“以无为本”的思想来解释《老子》中的“道”,认为“道”就是“无”,是宇宙万物的本源。
      • 《周易注》: 他以“崇本息末”的方法来解释《周易》,认为《周易》的卦象和爻辞只是用来表达义理的工具,真正的目的是要通过卦象来领悟“道”。

      5. 对后世的影响:

      王弼的玄学思想对后世产生了深远的影响:

      • 奠定了魏晋玄学的基础: 他与何晏共同奠定了魏晋玄学的基础,开启了中国思想史上的一个重要时期。
      • 影响了后来的玄学家: 他的思想影响了后来的玄学家,例如郭象等。
      • 影响了中国哲学的发展: 他的“以无为本”、“崇本息末”等思想对中国哲学的发展产生了重要的影响。
      • 影响了中国文化和艺术: 他的思想也影响了中国文化和艺术的各个方面,例如文学、绘画、书法等。

      与何晏思想的比较:

      王弼和何晏是魏晋玄学的两位代表人物,他们的思想既有相同之处,也有不同之处:

      • 相同之处: 他们都以“无”为本,认为“无”是宇宙万物的本源。
      • 不同之处: 何晏更强调“贵无”,认为“无”比“有”更重要;王弼则更注重“本末”关系,认为“无”是“本”,“有”是“末”,两者是相互依存、不可分割的。在圣人观上,何晏坚持“圣人无情”,而王弼则发展出“圣人有情”的辩证思想。

      总结:

      王弼是魏晋玄学的奠基人和代表人物之一,他以“以无为本”的本体论、“崇本息末”的认识论和方法论为核心,注释《老子》和《周易》,开创了义理玄学的新方向,对中国思想史产生了深远的影响。通过了解王弼的哲学思想,我们可以更深入地理解魏晋玄学的内涵和中国思想史的发展脉络。

    2. “贵无”

      何晏(约190年—249年),字平叔,南阳宛(今河南南阳)人。他是曹操的女婿,魏晋玄学的开创者之一,与王弼并称“王何”。何晏的哲学思想,是魏晋玄学“贵无论”的代表,对后世影响深远。要详细介绍何晏的哲学思想,需要从以下几个方面展开:

      1. “贵无”思想的核心:

      何晏玄学的核心是“贵无”思想。“无”并非指绝对的虚无,而是指作为万物本源的“道”,是超越一切具体事物、不可名状的本体。何晏认为,“有之为有,恃无以生;事而为事,由无以成。”(《道论》)意思是说,一切“有”的存在都依赖于“无”而产生,“事”之所以能成为“事”,也是由“无”而成就。“无”是“有”的根基和本源,因此“无”比“有”更根本、更重要,所以称为“贵无”。

      2. “无”的内涵:

      何晏的“无”并非简单的“空无”,而是具有丰富的内涵:

      • 本体论意义上的“无”: “无”是宇宙万物的本源,是超越一切具体事物、不可感知的存在。它是“有”的根据和基础,一切“有”都从“无”中产生。
      • 认识论意义上的“无”: “无”是不可名状、不可言说的,只能通过“无”的概念去体悟。语言和概念只能描述“有”,而无法真正把握“无”。
      • 伦理学意义上的“无”: 圣人以“无”为本,达到“无名无誉”的境界。这意味着圣人要超越世俗的功名利禄,回归自然,达到与“道”的合一。

      3. “圣人无情”论:

      何晏提出了著名的“圣人无情”论。他认为,圣人是体道之人,其心境是虚静无为的,没有喜怒哀乐等情感波动。这并非指圣人冷酷无情,而是指圣人能够超越情感的束缚,保持内心的平静和清明,从而更好地体悟“道”。这一理论对后世的伦理思想产生了重要影响,也引发了许多争议。

      4. 儒道合流的倾向:

      何晏的哲学思想融合了儒家和道家的思想。他一方面重视儒家的名教礼法,参与《论语集解》的编撰,对儒家经典进行注释和阐释;另一方面又推崇道家的“无为”思想,认为“无”是万物的本源。他试图将儒家的伦理规范与道家的本体论相结合,构建一种新的哲学体系。

      5. 对《老子》的阐释:

      何晏深受《老子》的影响,他以“无”来阐释《老子》中的“道”,认为“无”是“道”的本质特征。他撰写了《道德论》、《无名论》、《无为论》等著作,对《老子》的思想进行了深入的探讨和阐发。

      6. 对后世的影响:

      何晏的“贵无”思想是魏晋玄学的重要组成部分,对后世的哲学、文学、艺术等领域都产生了深远的影响:

      • 哲学方面: 他的“贵无”思想影响了后来的玄学家,例如王弼、郭象等。
      • 文学方面: 他的思想影响了魏晋时期的文学创作,例如玄言诗的兴起。
      • 思想方法方面: 他开创了一种新的思维方式,即从本体论的高度来探讨伦理和社会问题。

      需要注意的方面:

      • 何晏的著作流传至今的较少,我们主要通过后人的记载和辑佚来了解他的思想。
      • 何晏的“圣人无情”论在后世引发了许多争议,一些人认为这否定了人的情感价值。
      • 何晏的思想并非完全原创,它受到了前人思想的影响,例如老庄思想、儒家思想等。

      总结:

      何晏是魏晋玄学的开创者之一,他的“贵无”思想是魏晋玄学的重要组成部分。他以“无”为宇宙万物的本源,提出了“圣人无情”论,并试图将儒道两家思想融合。他的思想对后世的哲学、文学、艺术等领域都产生了深远的影响。通过了解何晏的哲学思想,我们可以更深入地理解魏晋玄学的内涵和中国思想史的发展脉络。

    1. Below is a concise overview of the key concepts in the article “How Real-Time Materialized Views Work with ksqlDB, Animated.” It explains:

      1. What Real-Time Materialized Views Are
      2. A real-time materialized view is a continuously updated “pre-aggregated” or “read-optimized” result of incoming streaming data.
      3. Instead of recalculating the entire view on demand (as in many traditional databases), stream processing incrementally updates the view with each new event (the “delta”).

      4. How ksqlDB Maintains These Views

      5. Continuous Queries: When you write a SQL-like query in ksqlDB (e.g., CREATE TABLE ... SELECT ... FROM readings GROUP BY ... EMIT CHANGES;), ksqlDB creates a persistent query that runs forever, reading new events from Kafka topics and updating the view.
      6. Incremental Updates + Changelog: As ksqlDB updates the materialized view in its local state store (RocksDB), it also emits a new record to a changelog topic in Kafka that captures the change.

        • This changelog topic is essentially the “audit log” of every update.
        • The local RocksDB store is fast but treated as transient; changelog topics in Kafka provide durability and fault tolerance.
      7. Push vs. Pull Queries

      8. Pull Queries ask for the current state of the materialized view at the moment you run the query (e.g., SELECT * FROM avg_readings WHERE sensor=...;).
      9. Push Queries subscribe to changes as they happen (e.g., SELECT * FROM avg_readings EMIT CHANGES;). You get a continuous stream of updates whenever a new change arrives.

      10. RocksDB as the Local Store

      11. Each partition of the input stream(s) to a ksqlDB query is associated with its own local RocksDB instance.
      12. RocksDB stores the current state needed for aggregations, joins, etc.
      13. Because data is partitioned, all rows with the same key end up on the same partition (and thus the same RocksDB instance).

      14. Automatic Repartitioning

      15. If your grouping key is not the same as the original Kafka key, ksqlDB must shuffle data so that rows with the same group key end up on the same partition.
      16. This shuffle is automatically handled by creating a *-repartition topic.
      17. If your original keys are already aligned with the grouping columns, ksqlDB skips this shuffle to save I/O.

      18. Fault Tolerance via Changelogs

      19. If a ksqlDB node dies, a new node can rebuild the materialized view by replaying the changelog from Kafka.
      20. Changelog topics use log compaction, which removes older updates to each key, keeping only the latest.
      21. This keeps replay time manageable (rather than applying every single historical update).

      22. Latest-by-Offset Aggregations

      23. Besides sum, min, max, or average, ksqlDB also supports “latest by offset” to store just the most recent value for each key, effectively creating a “recency cache.”
      24. Example:<br /> sql CREATE TABLE latest_readings AS SELECT sensor, LATEST_BY_OFFSET(area) AS area, LATEST_BY_OFFSET(reading) AS last FROM readings GROUP BY sensor EMIT CHANGES;
        • This ensures the table always reflects the last known value for each key (based on Kafka offset).

      Why This Matters

      • Fast Queries: Because the materialized view is already “pre-aggregated,” queries against it are extremely fast—no need to scan or recalculate everything from scratch.
      • Real-Time Updates: The view is updated continuously as new data arrives, so you always have a near-real-time representation of what is happening.
      • Scalable & Fault-Tolerant: Using Kafka’s partitions and log compaction for changelogs, ksqlDB scales horizontally (across multiple nodes) and recovers state quickly when nodes fail.

      Further Resources

      • Try It Out
      • The ksqlDB quickstart is a straightforward way to experiment locally.
      • Once it’s running, you can execute the code examples in the article to see real-time materialized views in action.
      • Next Steps
      • Deep dive into ksqlDB’s fault tolerance and scaling model (i.e., how queries distribute across clusters).
      • Explore additional stream processing patterns such as windowed aggregations for time-based summaries.
      • Learn how joins work between tables and streams in ksqlDB (similar incremental update logic, but with different partitioning considerations).

      In essence, real-time materialized views in ksqlDB let you maintain continually up-to-date “snapshots” of streaming data. By storing incremental results in a local state store and capturing updates in a Kafka changelog, ksqlDB can serve extremely fast queries, recover quickly from failures, and scale out for large data volumes.

    1. **Practices Of Web Accessibility **

      Here are five examples of how web accessibility principles are being followed on the Benjamin Moore Paint & Stain website.

      1. There is sufficient colour contrast between the text colour and background. According to the Contrast Checker, the background in teal green with white large text is a pass.

      Background (teal green) with large text is WCAG AA - PASS Foreground (white) with large text is WCAG AAA - PASS

      1. There is a clear layout structure with navigation menus, consistent styling and it also provides headings to identify groups of information.

      2. On the home page navigation menu, it includes content in both English and French. The language options can help immigrants with their shopping.

      3. In the product menu, there are large bold text added to explain what the photos are and this would pass from the perceivable standpoint.

      4. In the product menu there are product video testimonial links to YouTube which included the CC subtitle button and the captions are synchronized with the visual content.

    1. 画作赏析

      这幅画描绘了一幅典型的巴洛克风格的风景画,背景中有自然景观、人物活动和细腻的细节。以下是对这幅画作构图的分析:

      1. 整体构图布局

      • 画面分层与深度: 画面呈现了明显的三层结构:
      • 前景: 前景是画作的重点部分,展示了一些人物在水边或陆地上进行活动。这些人物和细节占据了画面的最前部分,给人一种强烈的空间感和活动感。
      • 中景: 中景部分主要是展示远处的树木和正在划船的几个人物。树木的布局呈现出一种自然的流动感,起到引导视线的作用。
      • 背景: 背景展示了远处的建筑和水景,画面深远且有层次感。远方的建筑和山丘增强了画面的空间感,呈现出一种宁静的氛围。

      2. 人物和活动的安排

      • 人物分布: 画中的人物以动态形式分布在前景和中景中。前景的人物主要在水边和岸上进行活动,如划船、洗衣、交流等。人物的动作活跃,增强了画面的生活气息和动感。
      • 人物互动: 人物之间的互动表现得非常自然,尤其是几位正在水边劳作的人物,他们的动作相互关联,表现出一种生活场景中的协作与互动。

      3. 自然景观的表现

      • 树木与植物: 画中的树木形态各异,有的枝繁叶茂,有的则较为简朴,表现出自然界的多样性和层次感。树木和植物的细节展示了画家精湛的技艺,同时也加强了画面的深度感。
      • 水面与建筑: 水面反射了天空和远处的景物,形成了画面中一种温柔的对称感。水上的船只以及岸边的建筑与自然景观相结合,突出了人与自然的和谐关系。

      4. 光影效果与颜色运用

      • 光源与阴影: 画面中的光线来自右上角,强烈的阳光照射在人物和自然景物上,产生了清晰的光影对比。人物的表情和姿势被光影强化,使得画面更加生动。
      • 色彩的运用: 画面整体使用了温暖的色调,如金色、黄色和绿色,形成了和谐的氛围。人物的衣着色彩鲜明,与自然景观的绿色和土色相对比,形成了鲜明的视觉效果。

      5. 画面中的运动与静态元素

      • 动态人物与静态背景: 画面中的人物大多呈现动态,如划船、行走、相互交谈等,展现了活力与动感。相比之下,背景中的建筑、树木和山丘则显得更加静谧,为画面提供了平衡与稳定感。
      • 动作的引导: 一些人物的动作与姿态起到了视觉引导作用,比如那些伸展的手臂和站立的姿势将观众的视线引导到画面中心和远方。

      6. 结论

      这幅画通过精妙的空间分布、人物的动态安排和自然景观的表现,展示了巴洛克风格画作的典型特征。层次分明的布局、丰富的细节和生动的人物动态使画面充满了生活气息与动感。而人物与自然的和谐互动,也体现了巴洛克艺术对人与自然关系的深刻理解。光影和色彩的运用进一步增强了画作的视觉吸引力,使其成为一幅典型的巴洛克时期的杰作。

    2. 构图赏析

      这幅画作描绘的是圣经中的一个宗教场景,具体来说是圣拉撒路复生The Raising of Lazarus),画面中的人物和构图展示了宗教主题的深刻内涵。以下是对这幅画的构图分析:

      1. 整体布局

      • 视觉焦点: 画面的中心是复生的拉撒路,他躺在石台上,身体还带着死亡的痕迹,而画面中其他人物正在朝向他,似乎在聆听或回应他的复生。这一复生场景被设计为画面的视觉焦点。
      • 空间划分: 整个画面可以分为三个主要区域:
      • 前景: 画面前部主要是聚焦在拉撒路和他身边的其他人物,如站立的牧师和正在跪拜的信徒。他们的动作和表情都表达了震惊、崇敬和惊奇。
      • 中景: 画面的中部展示了其他几位重要人物,包括拉撒路的家人和神职人员。他们正围绕着复生的拉撒路,显现出群体的互动。
      • 背景: 背景部分展示了一些美丽的景象,包括树木和远处的建筑,暗示画面发生的环境。天使的存在为场景增添了神圣的氛围。

      2. 人物安排

      • 动作与姿态:
      • 画面中的人物大多朝向复生的拉撒路,强调了这场神迹的中心人物。人物之间通过手势、表情和目光互动,增加了情感的传达。
      • 有些人物跪地祈祷或惊讶地向上看,显示了他们对神的崇敬与对复生奇迹的震惊。
      • 拉撒路复生的瞬间,身体依然有些僵硬,这种细节强化了死亡与复生之间的巨大转变。

      • 层次与深度:

      • 画面通过人物的站位形成了纵深感,靠近前景的人物更为明确,背景的人物逐渐模糊,使得视线集中在复生的拉撒路身上。
      • 人物的排列遵循一定的线条,形成了视觉上的引导,使观众的视线自然地被引向画面的中心。

      3. 光影运用

      • 光源: 画面中的光线从画面顶部或左上方来,强烈的光照集中在复生的拉撒路身上,体现了神圣力量的降临。这种光影的运用增加了神圣的氛围,强化了复生这一神迹的神秘感和超凡性。
      • 人物的阴影: 其他人物被光源照亮,阴影在地面上投射,强化了人物的立体感和层次感,使得整个场景更加生动和真实。

      4. 色彩与情感

      • 色彩对比: 画面中使用了温暖的色调(如红色、橙色和金色)来表现人物的衣服和神圣的光辉,这些温暖的颜色与背景的冷色调(如绿色和灰色的树木和建筑)形成了鲜明的对比,使人物更为突出。
      • 情感的传达: 通过细腻的表情刻画,画作传递出强烈的情感。拉撒路复生的震撼与神圣氛围通过人物的惊讶、祈祷和低头姿态得以展现。

      5. 天使的存在与象征

      • 天使的角色: 画面上方的天使们飞翔在空中,轻盈的姿态和圣洁的面容象征着神圣的降临与神迹的实现。天使们的存在也加强了场景的宗教象征意义,表明这是一次由神主导的奇迹。

      6. 总结

      这幅画通过人物的动态、光影效果以及色彩的运用,成功传达了拉撒路复生的神圣与震撼。复生的拉撒路成为了视觉焦点,周围人物的动作与表情让这一神迹更加生动和真实。画面通过层次感、情感表达和神圣光线的设计,展示了深刻的宗教主题和人物之间的互动,同时也强调了信仰、奇迹和神圣力量的不可抗拒。

    3. 画作构图分析

      这幅画作的构图视角分析可以从几个方面进行深入探讨,尤其是它的整体布局、人物的排列、光影效果和运动感。

      1. 画面中的人物排列和动态

      • 这幅画表现的是女性人物的群像,尤其是弯弓射箭的女性。她们的姿态富有动作感,并且每个女性的动作都有独特的表现。
      • 弯曲的姿势: 弯弓射箭的女性身姿优美,动作动态十足,暗示了射箭时的紧张和力量。弓弦拉紧的瞬间集中焦点,强调了她的动作和力量感。
      • 人物间的互动: 周围其他女性的动作与主角形成了互动。部分女性的目光与主角对视,部分女性则低头,似乎在观察或等待。她们的姿势各不相同,形成了丰富的层次感和动态感。

      2. 画面构图中的深度与层次感

      • 前景与背景: 画面深度的建立主要是通过人物的层次来体现。前景中,近处的女性动作鲜明,弯曲的腰身和伸出的手臂形成了强烈的空间感。而背景中的女性,虽然位置较远,但通过较柔和的颜色和模糊的细节,让观者产生一种透视感。
      • 多人物的排列: 人物的排列并非对称,而是呈现出有趣的层次感,前排的女性体态更为明显,后排则逐渐淡化,形成深远的空间感。

      3. 光影与人物的塑造

      • 光源方向: 画面中光线的照射方向从左上角或上方来的地方,照亮了女性们的面部和裸露的上半身。这种明暗对比为画面增加了戏剧性,同时强调了她们的情感表达。
      • 人物体积感: 光影的应用增强了人物的体积感,尤其是肩膀和胳膊的肌肉线条清晰可见,带来了一种生动的质感。

      4. 画面中的色彩运用

      • 暖色调: 画中的女性人物主要使用了暖色调的衣服(如红色、橙色等),这些色彩使人物的形象鲜明,突出情感的表现。
      • 冷暖对比: 背景与人物之间的色彩对比也增加了画面的视觉冲击力。背景呈现较暗的绿褐色调,这与人物的暖色衣物形成了鲜明的对比,增强了焦点人物的突出感。

      5. 视角与动感的体现

      • 角度与视觉焦点: 画面从一个稍微俯视的角度呈现,使得人物呈现出丰富的动态感和空间感。弯弓射箭的女性被设置为画面的视觉中心,而周围其他人物则围绕这一点形成补充。
      • 人物的表情和肢体语言: 每个人物的表情和动作都加强了动作的流动性和情感的表现。射箭的女性目光坚定,其他女性或表现出焦虑或安静,形成一种微妙的情感交织。

      6. 结论

      从构图角度来看,这幅作品展示了生动的动作、丰富的层次和深刻的情感。通过人物的动态、光影效果和细节的刻画,艺术家成功地传达了运动的力量和情感的细腻。人物的多样化表情和姿势使得画面充满了张力和节奏感,同时,空间的深度和光影的运用也增强了画面的立体感和视觉吸引力。

    1. Table ronde organisée à l'occasion du 20ᵉ anniversaire de la loi du 11 février 2005, par la #ComCultSénat (Laurent Lafon) sur le thème "Quel bilan pour l’école inclusive ?" :

      Avec : Caroline Pascal (direction générale de l’enseignement scolaire), Isabelle Saurat (délégation interministérielle à l’accessibilité), Jérémie Boroy (conseil national consultatif des personnes handicapées), et Thierry Bour (stratégie nationale pour les troubles du neuro-développement).

      Ce texte est la transcription d'une table ronde au Sénat français, marquant le 20e anniversaire de la loi de 2005 sur l'inclusion scolaire des élèves handicapés.

      Des experts du Ministère de l'Éducation nationale, de la délégation interministérielle à l'accessibilité, et du Conseil national consultatif des personnes handicapées dressent un bilan mitigé de cette loi.

      Malgré des progrès significatifs en termes d'inscription scolaire, des défis persistent concernant l'accessibilité physique et numérique des établissements, la formation des enseignants, et la qualité de l'accompagnement des élèves.

      La discussion explore des solutions innovantes comme les "passes", des pôles d'appui à la scolarisation, et souligne le besoin de simplification des dispositifs existants.

      Enfin, des propositions pour améliorer la situation sont formulées, incluant des ajustements législatifs et une meilleure coordination entre acteurs.

      Voici un sommaire minuté de la transcription :

      0:00-4:34 Introduction par Laurent Lafon, Président de la Commission de la culture, de l'éducation et de la communication du Sénat :

      • Présentation de la table ronde organisée en amont du 20e anniversaire de la loi du 11 février 2005 pour l'égalité des droits et des chances, la participation et la citoyenneté des personnes handicapées.
      • Objectif de la table ronde : dresser un bilan de l'école inclusive, 20 ans après l'adoption de la loi de 2005.
      • Présentation des participants :
        • Caroline Pascal, Directrice générale de l'enseignement scolaire
        • Isabelle Saurat, Déléguée interministérielle à l'accessibilité
        • Thierry Bour, Conseiller pour l'école inclusive et l'enseignement supérieur, représentant la Délégation interministérielle à la stratégie nationale pour les troubles du neuro-développement
        • Jérémie Boroy, Président du Conseil national consultatif des personnes handicapées
      • Rappel du droit à la scolarisation en milieu ordinaire pour tout enfant et du principe d'un parcours de scolarisation adapté aux besoins de chaque enfant handicapé, inscrits dans la loi de 2005.
      • Constat d'une augmentation significative du nombre d'enfants en situation de handicap scolarisés en milieu ordinaire depuis 2006 (de 155 000 à plus de 510 000 en 2024), soulevant la question du bilan qualitatif de l'accueil de ces enfants.
      • Invitation aux participants à dresser un bilan de la loi de 2005 et à proposer des pistes d'amélioration.

      4:34-16:16 Intervention de Caroline Pascal, Directrice générale de l'enseignement scolaire :

      • Affirmation du principe d'une école accessible à tous, sans distinction, où chaque enfant mérite une place dans la société.
      • Rappel du contexte de la loi de 2005 et de l'exclusion du système scolaire ordinaire de 150 000 enfants en situation de handicap en 2003.
      • Mise en avant de l'augmentation spectaculaire du nombre d'élèves en situation de handicap scolarisés en milieu ordinaire depuis 2005, témoignant de l'engagement de l'État et de l'école pour l'inclusion.
      • Mention des mesures emblématiques mises en place pour accompagner la mise en œuvre de l'inclusion scolaire, notamment l'augmentation des moyens financiers et du nombre de personnels spécialisés et d'accompagnants.
      • Présentation de données chiffrées illustrant les efforts déployés et les progrès réalisés.
      • Reconnaissance de la nécessité de poursuivre les efforts et de proposer des solutions plus qualitatives pour répondre aux besoins spécifiques de chaque élève.
      • Présentation des pôles d'appui à la scolarité (PASS), structures novatrices visant à renforcer la coopération entre l'école, le secteur médico-social et les acteurs libéraux.
      • Mise en avant des retours positifs sur les PASS et des délais de réponse optimisés.
      • Définition de trois axes pour améliorer l'école inclusive :
        • Faciliter le parcours des familles et des élèves
        • Former et accompagner les équipes pédagogiques
        • Travailler en collaboration avec les acteurs du secteur médico-social
      • Conclusion sur la nécessité de penser l'école inclusive comme un processus vivant en constante évolution, pour garantir à chaque enfant un parcours scolaire adapté à ses besoins et à ses talents.

      16:16-27:39 Intervention d'Isabelle Saurat, Déléguée interministérielle à l'accessibilité :

      • Présentation de la Délégation interministérielle à l'accessibilité et de sa mission de coordination dans le champ de l'accessibilité physique, numérique et téléphonique.
      • Point sur le financement du Fonds territorial d'accessibilité pour la mise en accessibilité des établissements recevant du public (ERP), dont les écoles.
      • Mention des guides du bâti scolaire inclusifs.
      • Constat de l'absence de base de données complète sur l'accessibilité des ERP.
      • Point sur l'accessibilité numérique des démarches essentielles dans le champ de l'enseignement.
      • Mise en avant du dispositif de soutien à la production de ressources numériques et du label "Éducation Numérique".
      • Proposition de création d'un point national d'accès aux données d'accessibilité, ouvert à tous.

      27:39-40:26 Intervention de Thierry Bour, Conseiller pour l'école inclusive et l'enseignement supérieur :

      • Présentation des missions du Délégué interministériel à la Stratégie nationale pour les troubles du neuro-développement (TND).
      • Rappel des trois plans autisme et de leurs traductions concrètes dans l'amélioration de la scolarisation des élèves autistes.
      • Présentation de la stratégie nationale 2018-2022 et de ses actions pour renforcer la scolarisation des élèves autistes en milieu ordinaire.
      • Point sur les nouveautés et les évolutions chiffrées depuis la rentrée 2023.
      • Mention de la complexité du panel de solutions pour les familles et les professionnels, et proposition de simplification de l'offre.
      • Soulignement des enjeux de l'accessibilité des apprentissages et de la formation des enseignants.

      40:26-56:48 Intervention de Jérémie Boroy, Président du Conseil national consultatif des personnes handicapées (CNCPH) :

      • Présentation du CNCPH et de sa mission de contribution à l'autonomie des personnes handicapées et à la construction des politiques publiques qui les concernent.
      • Rappel des différents cadres de référence internationaux et nationaux pour les droits des personnes handicapées.
      • Interrogation sur la sémantique de l'« école inclusive » et plaidoyer pour une école pour tous.
      • Constat des progrès réalisés depuis 2005, tout en soulignant le chemin restant à parcourir, notamment en matière de qualité des dispositifs.
      • Point sur l'inscription des élèves à l'école et la nécessité de généraliser le numéro INE pour tous les élèves.
      • Insistance sur l'importance de l'accessibilité des établissements scolaires.
      • Proposition d'un « plan Notre-Dame de l'accessibilité » pour rattraper le retard accumulé en matière d'accessibilité.
      • Soulignement de l'importance de la formation des enseignants aux pratiques pédagogiques accessibles et inclusives.
      • Appel à une programmation législative pour sécuriser les trajectoires budgétaires et les responsabilités des différents acteurs.
      • Proposition d'une simplification législative des dispositifs et des plans pour une meilleure lisibilité.

      56:48-2:00:03 Questions des sénateurs et réponses des participants :

      • Questions posées par les sénateurs sur divers sujets, notamment :
        • L'accessibilité de l'enseignement supérieur
        • Le statut des AESH
        • La formation des AESH et des enseignants
        • Le temps méridien et l'accompagnement périscolaire
        • Les dispositifs Ulis et les élèves en attente de solution
        • Le bilan qualitatif de l'école inclusive
        • L'impact de la chute démographique sur l'école inclusive
        • La collaboration entre les acteurs de l'école inclusive
        • L'orientation des élèves en situation de handicap
        • Les pôles d'appui à la scolarité (PASS)
        • La mise à disposition de matériel adapté
        • Les spécificités des territoires ruraux
        • L'école inclusive dans le réseau de l'AEFE
        • L'accueil des élèves en situation de handicap dans la pratique sportive
      • Réponses des participants, notamment :
        • Actions mises en place pour améliorer le statut et la formation des AESH
        • Fonctionnement, bilan et perspectives des PASS
        • Importance de la formation initiale et continue des enseignants à l'inclusion
        • Nécessité d'une approche par besoin et d'une simplification des dispositifs
        • Spécificités de l'enseignement supérieur et accessibilité des universités
        • Importance de la baisse démographique pour l'amélioration de l'école inclusive
        • Manque de collaboration entre les acteurs sur le terrain et besoin de coordination
        • Nécessité d'une formation de proximité pour les enseignants
        • Difficultés d'accès à la pratique sportive pour les élèves en situation de handicap
      • Conclusion de Laurent Lafon, rappelant l'importance du sujet de l'école inclusive et annonçant la tenue d'un colloque sur les 20 ans de la loi de 2005.
    2. Compte-rendu de la table ronde sur l'école inclusive: Bilan et perspectives 20 ans après la loi du 11 février 2005

      Introduction:

      Ce document présente les principaux thèmes et idées abordés lors de la table ronde sur l'école inclusive, organisée à l'occasion du 20e anniversaire de la loi du 11 février 2005. La discussion s'est articulée autour du bilan de la mise en œuvre de cette loi et des perspectives d'évolution pour l'avenir.

      Participants:

      • Mme Caroline Pascal, Directrice Générale de l'Enseignement Scolaire
      • Mme Isabelle Sor, Déléguée interministérielle à l'accessibilité
      • M. Thierry Bour, Conseiller pour l'école inclusive et l'enseignement supérieur
      • M. Jérémy Borroi, Délégué interministériel aux troubles du neurodéveloppement

      Thèmes principaux:

      1. Bilan de la loi de 2005:

      • Avancées: La loi de 2005 a permis des avancées significatives en matière de scolarisation des élèves en situation de handicap.
      • "beaucoup de choses est quand même été faites en tout cas dans dans notre dans notre domaine" (Mme Arcos, Sénatrice)
      • Défis: Des défis persistent, notamment en matière d'accessibilité physique et numérique, de formation des enseignants et de coordination entre l'Éducation nationale et le secteur médico-social.
      • "le compte n'y est pas sur tout le territoire" (M. Bour) concernant l'accessibilité des établissements scolaires.

      2. L'accessibilité, un prérequis indispensable:

      • L'accessibilité physique et numérique des établissements scolaires reste un enjeu majeur pour garantir l'inclusion de tous les élèves.
      • "on peut parler d'accès à l'école si les écoles elles-mêmes école collège lycée ne sont pas accessibles ne sont pas norm il n'y a pas d'accès à l'école" (M. Bour)
      • La nécessité d'une programmation rigoureuse des travaux d'accessibilité et d'une meilleure coordination entre les différents acteurs impliqués (collectivités territoriales, Éducation nationale, etc.) est soulignée.
      • "nous pensons qu'il faut programmer les choses quitte à recourir à la loi pour conforter cette programmation dans le temps mais on ne peut plus reporter dans tê tout cette tout cet enjeu de de formation" (M. Bour)

      3. La formation des enseignants, un levier essentiel:

      • La formation initiale et continue des enseignants est cruciale pour les préparer à l'accueil et à l'accompagnement des élèves en situation de handicap.
      • "le sujet qui est devant nous je m'inscris là dans le cadre d'une évolution plus globale de la formation initiale des enseignants" (Mme Pascal)
      • Il est nécessaire d'intégrer la dimension de l'inclusion dans les référentiels de formation et de développer des modules spécifiques sur les besoins éducatifs particuliers des élèves.
      • "l'idée d'augmenter notamment le volume horaire consacré à la question du handicap et à l'école inclusive dans le cadre de la formation initiale" (Mme Pascal)

      4. Le rôle des pôles d'appui à la scolarité (PASS):

      • Les PASS, structures novatrices expérimentées depuis la rentrée scolaire, visent à renforcer la coordination entre l'école et le secteur médico-social.
      • "ces pôles sont des structures novatrices elles permettent d'apporter une elle vise à renforcer la" (Mme Pascal)
      • Un bilan de cette première année d'expérimentation est nécessaire pour identifier les points forts et les axes d'amélioration.
      • "nous allons faire un bilan de cette première année ça ne fait que 4 mois hein que que" (Mme Pascal)

      5. Le statut des accompagnants d'élèves en situation de handicap (AESH):

      • La précarité du statut des AESH (temps partiel, faible rémunération) est pointée du doigt.
      • "on sait très bien que la plupart sont des gens qui sont touchés eux-mêmes déjà par des gens euh atteint de handicap dans leur famille mais ça n'est toujours pas toujours pas des métiers entre guillemets attractif" (Mme Arcos)
      • Des solutions sont proposées pour améliorer leur situation, notamment la CDIsation après 3 ans d'exercice et l'accès à la formation.
      • "on a proposé et mis en place la cédisation à partir de 3 ans euh d'exercice du métier d'aesh" (Mme Pascal)

      6. La question des transports:

      • Les difficultés liées aux transports des élèves en situation de handicap vers les établissements scolaires sont évoquées.
      • "on a des des parfois des enfants qui font 50 km pour aller euh dans leur établissement" (Mme Billon, Sénatrice)
      • Il est impératif de trouver des solutions pour limiter ces déplacements et garantir un accès équitable à l'éducation pour tous.

      • L'école inclusive à l'étranger:

      • La mise en place de l'école inclusive dans le réseau de l'AEFE (Agence pour l'enseignement français à l'étranger) pose des défis spécifiques, notamment en ce qui concerne le statut des AESH.

      • "notamment sur le statut des des aesh il y a aussi beauou beaucoup de choses qui doivent être développées dans ce réseau puisque les aesh lorsqu'elles sont à l'étranger sont en général de droit local" (Mme Olivier, Sénatrice)

      Conclusion:

      • Vingt ans après la loi du 11 février 2005, l'école inclusive reste un chantier en construction. Si des progrès importants ont été réalisés, il reste encore beaucoup à faire pour garantir une scolarisation de qualité et un accès équitable à l'éducation pour tous les élèves, quel que soit leur handicap.

      Propositions:

      • Programmation législative pour encadrer l'accessibilité des bâtiments et des ressources numériques.
      • Renforcer la formation initiale et continue des enseignants sur les besoins éducatifs particuliers.
      • Généraliser les pôles d'appui à la scolarité sur l'ensemble du territoire.
      • Améliorer le statut des AESH pour garantir la qualité de l'accompagnement des élèves.
      • Développer des solutions pour simplifier les transports des élèves en situation de handicap.
      • Adapter la politique d'inclusion scolaire aux spécificités du réseau de l'AEFE.
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    1. An Inactive Event

      Requires a Strategic Tactical Investigative Response 1. The criminal act has concluded at the scene. 2. The suspect or suspects have left the scene or have been arrested or detained. 3. The situation at the scene no longer represents a danger to the life or safety of a person, including police officers.

    2. An Active Event

      Requires a Tactical Investigative Response 1. The criminal act is or may still be in progress at the scene. 2. The suspect is or may still be at the scene of the event. 3. The situation is, or may be, a danger to the life or safety of a person, including the life or safety of attending police officers.

    3. Topic 2: Progression of the Investigative Process

      Criminal investigations may change wildly and in unpredictable ways. As such, methodologies pertaining to the investigative process must be sufficiently flexible while also ensuring that results and priorities are met.

      When conducting an investigation - the progression from initial evidence gathering to the arrest and charge of a suspect - the results and priorities sought after in an investigation will always be the same.

    4. results

      AKA "Level Two priorities"

      These come after "Level One priorities" (just called "Priorities") have been ensured. Under no circumstances will Level Two priorities come at the expense of Level One priorities.

      There are 4 general results which are considered equal to each other, meaning that it may be justified to concentrate on one result at the expense of another. 1. Identifying, gathering, and preserving evidence 2. Establishing reasonable grounds to identify and arrest suspects 3. Accurately recording and documenting the event in notes and reports 4. Protecting property

    1. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      In this manuscript Luo et al uncover that the ZNRF3/RNF43 E3 ubiquitin ligases participate in the selective endocytosis and degradation of FZD5/8 receptors in response to Wnt stimulation. Interestingly, DVL proteins have previously been shown to be important for RNF43/ZNRF3-dependent ubiquitination of Frizzled receptors but in this study the authors show that DVL proteins are only important for ligand and RNF43/ZNRF3-independent FZD endocytosis. Although it is well established that ZNRF3 and RNF43 promote the endocytosis and degradation of FZD receptors as part of a negative regulatory loop to dampened B-catenin signaling, the dependency of Wnt stimulation for this process and the specificity of this degradation for different FZD receptors remained poorly characterized.

      In my opinion there are two significant findings of this study: 1) Wnt proteins are required for ZNRF3/RNF43 mediated endocytosis and degradation of FZD receptors and this constitutes an important negative regulatory loop. 2) The ZNRF3/RNF43 substrate selectivity for FZD5/8 over the other 8 Frizzleds. Of course, many questions remain, and new ones emerge as is often the case, but these findings challenge our dogmatic view on how the ZNRF3/RNF43 regulate Wnt signaling and emphasize their role in Wnt-dependent Frizzled endocytosis/degradation and beta-catenin signaling. Below I have suggestions to strengthen the manuscript.

      (1) Given their results the authors conclude that upregulation of Frizzled on the plasma membrane is not sufficient to explain the stabilization of beta-catenin seen in the ZNRF3/RNF43 mutant cells. This interpretation is sound, and they suggest in the discussion that ZNRF3/RNF43-mediated ubiquitination could serve as a sorting signal to sort endocytosed FZD to lysosomes for degradation and that absence or inhibition of this process would promote FZD recycling. This should be relatively easy to test using surface biotinylation experiments and would considerably strengthen the manuscript.<br /> (2) The authors show that the FZD5 CRD domain is required for endocytosis since a mutant FZD5 protein in which the CRD is removed does not undergo endocytosis. This is perhaps not surprising since this is the site of Wnt binding, but the authors show that a chimeric FZD5CRD-FZD4 receptor can confer Wnt-dependent endocytosis to an otherwise endocytosis incompetent FZD4 protein. Since the linker region between the CRD and the first TM differs between FZD5 and FZD4 it would be interesting to understand whether the CRD specifically or the overall arrangement (such as the spacing) is the most important determinant.<br /> (3) I find it surprising that only FZD5 and FZD8 appear to undergo endocytosis or be stabilized at the cell surface upon ZNRF3/RNF43 knockout. Is this consistent with previous literature? Is that a cell-specific feature? These findings should be tested in a different cell line, with possibly different relative levels of ZNRF3 and RNF43 expression.<br /> (4) If FZD7 is not a substrate of ZNRF3/RNF43 and therefore is not ubiquitinated and degraded, how do the authors reconcile that its overexpression does not lead to elevated cytosolic beta-catenin levels in Figure 5B?<br /> (5) For Figure 5B, it would be interesting if the authors could evaluate whether overexpression of FZD5 in the ZNRF3/RNF43 double knockout lines would synergize and lead to further increase in cytosolic beta-catenin levels. As control if the substrate selectivity is clear FZD7 overexpression in that line should not do anything.<br /> (6) In Figure 6G, the authors need to show cytosolic levels of beta-catenin in the absence of Wnt in all cases.<br /> (7) Since the authors show that DVL is not involved in the Wnt and ZRNF3-dependent endocytosis they should repeat the proximity biotinylation experiment in figure 7 in the DVL triple KO cells. This is an important experiment since previous studies showed that DVL was required for the ZRNF3/RNF43-mediated ubiqtuonation of FZD.

    2. Author response:

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      (1) Given their results the authors conclude that upregulation of Frizzled on the plasma membrane is not sufficient to explain the stabilization of beta-catenin seen in the ZNRF3/RNF43 mutant cells. This interpretation is sound, and they suggest in the discussion that ZNRF3/RNF43-mediated ubiquitination could serve as a sorting signal to sort endocytosed FZD to lysosomes for degradation and that absence or inhibition of this process would promote FZD recycling. This should be relatively easy to test using surface biotinylation experiments and would considerably strengthen the manuscript.

      Thank you for your valuable suggestions and comments. We will perform cell surface biotinylation experiments.

      (2) The authors show that the FZD5 CRD domain is required for endocytosis since a mutant FZD5 protein in which the CRD is removed does not undergo endocytosis. This is perhaps not surprising since this is the site of Wnt binding, but the authors show that a chimeric FZD5CRD-FZD4 receptor can confer Wnt-dependent endocytosis to an otherwise endocytosis incompetent FZD4 protein. Since the linker region between the CRD and the first TM differs between FZD5 and FZD4 it would be interesting to understand whether the CRD specifically or the overall arrangement (such as the spacing) is the most important determinant.

      Our results in Fig. 1F-G clearly show that the CRD of FZD5 specifically is both necessary and sufficient for Wnt3a/5a-induced FZD5 endocytosis, as replacing the CRD alone in FZD5 with the CRD from either FZD4 or FZD7 completely abolished Wnt-induced endocytosis, whereas replacing the CRD alone in FZD4 or FZD7 with the FZD5 CRD alone could confer Wnt-induced endocytosis.

      (3) I find it surprising that only FZD5 and FZD8 appear to undergo endocytosis or be stabilized at the cell surface upon ZNRF3/RNF43 knockout. Is this consistent with previous literature? Is that a cell-specific feature? These findings should be tested in a different cell line, with possibly different relative levels of ZNRF3 and RNF43 expression.

      Thank you for your comments and suggestions. Our finding that ZNRF3/RNF43 specifically regulates FZD5/8 degradation is consistent with recent published studies in which FZD5 is required for the survival of RNF43-mutant PDAC or colorectal cancer cells (Nature Medicine, 2017, PMID: 27869803) and FZD5 is required for the maintenance of intestinal stem cells (Developmental Cell, 2024, PMID: 39579768 and 39579769), and in both cases, FZDs other than FZD5/8 are also expressed but not sufficient to compensate for the function of FZD5. The mechanism by which Wnt3a/5a specifically induces FZD5/8 endocytosis and degradation is currently unknown and needs to be explored in the future. We speculate that Wnt binding to FZD5/8 may recruit another protein on the cell surface to specifically facilitate FZD5/8 endocytosis. On the other hand, we cannot exclude the possibility that Wnts other than Wnt3a/5a may induce the endocytosis and degradation of FZDs other than FZD5/8 since there are 19 Wnts and 10 FZDs in humans. We will perform flow cytometry experiments using FZD5/8-specific antibodies to examine whether Wnt3a/5a induces FZD5/8 endocytosis in more cell lines.

      (4) If FZD7 is not a substrate of ZNRF3/RNF43 and therefore is not ubiquitinated and degraded, how do the authors reconcile that its overexpression does not lead to elevated cytosolic beta-catenin levels in Figure 5B?

      We are currently not sure of the mechanism underlying this result. Considering that most FZDs are expressed in 293A cells, we do not know how much of the mature form of overexpressed FZD7 was presented to the plasma membrane.

      (5) For Figure 5B, it would be interesting if the authors could evaluate whether overexpression of FZD5 in the ZNRF3/RNF43 double knockout lines would synergize and lead to further increase in cytosolic beta-catenin levels. As control if the substrate selectivity is clear FZD7 overexpression in that line should not do anything.

      We will perform these experiments as you suggested.

      (6) In Figure 6G, the authors need to show cytosolic levels of beta-catenin in the absence of Wnt in all cases.

      We did not add Wnt CM in this experiment. RSPO1 activity, which relies on endogenous Wnt, has been well documented in previous studies.

      (7) Since the authors show that DVL is not involved in the Wnt and ZRNF3-dependent endocytosis they should repeat the proximity biotinylation experiment in figure 7 in the DVL triple KO cells. This is an important experiment since previous studies showed that DVL was required for the ZRNF3/RNF43-mediated ubiqtuonation of FZD.

      Thank you for your valuable suggestions. We will perform the proximity biotinylation experiment in DVL TKO cells.

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This manuscript aimed to study the role of Rudhira (also known as Breast Carcinoma Amplified Sequence 3), an endothelium-restricted microtubules-associated protein, in regulating of TGFβ signaling. The authors demonstrate that Rudhira is a critical signaling modulator for TGFβ signaling by releasing Smad2/3 from cytoskeletal microtubules and how that Rudhira is a Smad2/3 target gene. Taken together, the authors provide a model of how Rudhira contributes to TGFβ signaling activity to stabilize the microtubules, which is essential for vascular development.

      Strengths:

      The study used different methods and techniques to achieve aims and support conclusions, such as Gene Ontology analysis, functional analysis in culture, immunostaining analysis, and proximity ligation assay. This study provides unappreciated additional layer of TGFβ signaling activity regulation after ligand-receptor interaction.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) It is unclear how current findings provide a better understanding of Rudhira KO mice, which the authors published some years ago.

      (2) Why do they use HEK cells instead of SVEC cells in Fig 2 and 4 experiments?

      (3) A model shown in Fig 5E needs improvement to grasp their findings easily.

      Comments on revised version:

      The authors have adequately responded to the reviewers' concerns.

    2. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      It was first reported in 2000 that Smad2/3/4 are sequestered to microtubules in resting cells and TGF-β stimulation releases Smad2/3/4 from microtubules, allowing activation of the Smad signaling pathway. Although the finding was subsequently confirmed in a few papers, the underlying mechanism has not been explored. In the present study, the authors found that Rudhira/breast carcinoma amplified sequence 3 is involved in release Smad2/3 from microtubules in response to TGF-β stimulation. Rudhira is also induced by TGF-β and probably involved in stabilization of microtubules in the delayed phase after TGF-β stimulation. Therefore, Rudhira has two important functions downstream of TGF-β in the early as well as delayed phase.

      Strengths:

      This work aimed to address an unsolved question on one of the earliest events after TGF-β stimulation. Based on loss-of-function experiments, the authors identified Rudhira, as a key player that triggers Smad2/3 release from microtubules after TGF-β stimulation. This is an important first step for understanding the initial phase of Smad signaling activation.

      Weaknesses:

      Currently, the processes how Rudhira causes the release of Smad proteins from microtubules and how Rudhira is mobilized to microtubules in response to TGF-β remain unclear. The authors are expected to address these points experimentally in the future.

      This reviewer is also afraid that some of the biochemical data lack appropriate controls and are not convincing enough.

    3. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary

      This manuscript aimed to study the role of Rudhira (also known as Breast Carcinoma Amplified Sequence 3), an endothelium-restricted microtubules-associated protein, in regulating of TGFβ signaling. The authors demonstrate that Rudhira is a critical signaling modulator for TGFβ signaling by releasing Smad2/3 from cytoskeletal microtubules and how Rudhira is a Smad2/3 target gene. Taken together, the authors provide a model of how Rudhira contributes to TGFβ signaling activity to stabilize the microtubules, which is essential for vascular development.

      Strengths

      The study used different methods and techniques to achieve aims and support conclusions, such as Gene Ontology analysis, functional analysis in culture, immunostaining analysis, and proximity ligation assay. This study provides an unappreciated additional layer of TGFβ signaling activity regulation after ligand receptor interaction.

      We thank the reviewer for acknowledging the importance of our study and providing a clear summary of our findings.

      Weaknesses

      (1) It is unclear how current findings provide a beVer understanding of Rudhira KO mice, which the authors published some years ago.

      Our previous study demonstrated that Rudhira KO mice have a predominantly developmental cardiovascular phenotype that phenocopies TGFβ loss of function (Shetty, Joshi et al., 2018). Additionally, we found that at the molecular level, Rudhira regulates cytoskeletal organization (Jain et al., 2012; Joshi and Inamdar, 2019). Our current study builds upon these previous findings, showing an essential role of Rudhira in maintaining TGFβ signaling and controlling the microtubule cytoskeleton during vascular development. On one hand Rudhira regulates TGFβ signaling by promoting the release of Smads from microtubules, while on the other, Rudhira is a TGFβ target essential for stabilizing microtubules. Thus, our current study provides a molecular basis for Rudhira function in cardiovascular development.

      (2) Why do they use HEK cells instead of SVEC cells in Figure 2 and 4 experiments?

      Our earlier studies have characterized the role of Rudhira in detail using both loss and gain of function methods in multiple cell types (Jain et al., 2012; SheVy, Joshi et al., 2018; Joshi and Inamdar, 2019). As endothelial cells are particularly difficult to transfect, and because the function of Rudhira in promoting cell migration is conserved in HEK cells, it was practical and relevant to perform these experiments in HEK cells (Figures 2 and 4E).

      (3) A model shown in Figure 5E needs improvement to grasp their findings easily.

      We have modified Figure 5E for clarity.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary

      It was first reported in 2000 that Smad2/3/4 are sequestered to microtubules in resting cells and TGF-β stimulation releases Smad2/3/4 from microtubules, allowing activation of the Smad signaling pathway. Although the finding was subsequently confirmed in a few papers, the underlying mechanism has not been explored. In the present study, the authors found that Rudhira/breast carcinoma amplified sequence 3 is involved in the release of Smad2/3 from microtubules in response to TGF-β stimulation. Rudhira is also induced by TGF-β and is probably involved in the stabilization of microtubules in the delayed phase after TGF-β stimulation. Therefore, Rudhira has two important functions downstream of TGF-β in the early as well as delayed phase.

      Strengths:

      This work aimed to address an unsolved question on one of the earliest events after TGF-β stimulation. Based on loss-of-function experiments, the authors identified a novel and potentially important player, Rudhira, in the signal transmission of TGF-β.

      We thank the reviewer for the critical evaluation and appreciation of our findings.

      Weaknesses:

      The authors have identified a key player that triggers Smad2/3 released from microtubules after TGF-β stimulation probably via its association with microtubules. This is an important first step for understanding the regulation of Smad signaling, but underlying mechanisms as well as upstream and downstream events largely remain to be elucidated.

      We acknowledge that the mechanisms regulating cytoskeletal control of Smad signaling are far from clear, but these are out of scope of this manuscript. This manuscript rather focuses on Rudhira/Bcas3 as a pivot to understand vascular TGFβ signaling and microtubule connections.

      (1) The process of how Rudhira causes the release of Smad proteins from microtubules remains unclear. The statement that "Rudhira-MT association is essential for the activation and release of Smad2/3 from MTs" (lines 33-34) is not directly supported by experimental data.

      We agree with the reviewer’s comment. Although we provide evidence that the loss of Rudhira (and thereby deduced loss of Rudhira-MT association) prevents release of Smad2/3 from MTs (Fig 3C), it does not confirm the requirement of Rudhira-MT association for this. In light of this, we have modified the statement to ‘Rudhira associates with MTs and is essential for the activation and release of Smad2/3 from MTs”.

      (2) The process of how Rudhira is mobilized to microtubules in response to TGF-β remains unclear.

      Our previous study showed that Rudhira associates with microtubules, and preferentially binds to stable microtubules (Jain et al., 2012; Joshi and Inamdar, 2019). Since TGFβ stimulation is known to stabilize microtubules, we hypothesize that TGFβ stimulation increases Rudhira binding to stable microtubules. We have mentioned this in our revised manuscript.

      (3) After Rudhira releases Smad proteins from microtubules, Rudhira stabilizes microtubules. The process of how cells return to a resting state and recover their responsiveness to TGF-β remains unclear.

      We show that dissociation of Smads from microtubules is an early response and stabilization of microtubules is a late TGFβ response. However, we agree that the sequence of these molecular events has not been characterized in-depth in this or any other study, making it difficult to assign causal roles (eg. whether release of Smads from MTs is a pre-requisite for MT stabilization by Rudhira) or reversibility. However, the TGFβ pathway is auto regulatory, leading to increased turnover of receptors and Smads and increased expression of inhibitory Smads, which may recover responsiveness to TGFβ. Additionally, the still short turnover time of stable microtubules (several minutes to hours) may also promote quick return to resting state. We have discussed this in our revised manuscript.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for The Authors):

      (1) Overall: Duration of TGF-β stimulation in cell-based assays should be described in the legends for readers' convenience. Avoid simple bar graphs because sample numbers are only 3. A scaVer plot should be super-imposed.

      Details added, as suggested. Duration of treatment is mentioned in Materials and methods section for figures 1C-D; 2A-B; 3; 4A-C; 5A-C; S2D; S3A-C; S4C, D. Bar graphs have been replaced with a bar + scatter plot. Note that, as the Excel file for data related to fig 4A was corrupted, we repeated the experiments to generate fresh data. Hence the graph had to be replaced. However, the result holds true as before.

      (2) Figure 1A: This panel is too small. Gene names are almost invisible.

      Modified for clarity.

      (3) Figure 1B: Show TGFβRI expression by immunoblomng (re-probing) to verify that it is expressed in the rightmost lane.

      TGFβRI overexpression was confirmed by qPCR in a replicate in the same experiment (Fig S2C).

      (4) Figure 1C: Show expression of Rudhira. In addition, confirm the positions of molecular weight markers. Smad2 migrated slower than pSmad2.

      Rudhira expression is shown in Fig S1B. Molecular weight markers have been corrected.

      (5) Figure 3A: This panel shows a negative result that Smad2/3 fails to interact with Rudhira. A positive control, for example, Smad4, would make the data convincing.

      Although it would be nice to have a positive control for interaction, we do not agree that a positive control of Smad4 is essential for our conclusion from this experiment, which is that ‘we were unable to detect an interaction between Rudhira and Smad2/3’.

      (6) Fig. 3B: Show Rudhira blot. If possible, show that the Rudhira-MT association precedes Smad phosphorylation by a time course experiment. This is an important point but not experimentally demonstrated.

      The interaction between Rudhira and microtubules with or without TGFβ is demonstrated by PLA (Fig 3E). Although important, the suggested time course experiments to assess the sequence of events are beyond the scope of this manuscript. 

      (7) Figure 3E: Does the process require the type I receptor kinase activity or non-Smad signaling pathways?

      Since TGFβ pathway is complex and is regulated at multiple steps, this possibility has not been tested and is beyond the scope of current study.

      (8) Figure 4A: The authors did not examine if these elements are functional. Therefore, this panel can be presented as a supplementary figure.

      As suggested, the panel has been moved to supplementary information.

      (9) Figure 4E: The figure legend does not say that cells were TGF-β-stimulated. It remains unclear if Smad2 and Smad3 are involved in Rudhira expression as phosphorylated or non-phosphorylated forms. Therefore, the authors should show a pSmad2 blot. In the absence of TGF-β stimulation, Smad2 and Smad3 are expected to be sequestrated to microtubules and therefore not phosphorylated. In the case that cells were stimulated with TGF-β, show if Rudhira is induced by TGF-β in HEK293T cells. This is not shown in this manuscript.

      This experiment was not performed under regulated conditions with or without TGFβ, hence the sensitivity to TGFβ could not be assessed. Cells were not stimulated with exogenous TGFβ, but cultured in regular medium with serum, which can have up to ~40 ng/ml of TGFβ (latent and active). Additionally, owing to severe depletion of Smad2 or Smad3 by shRNAs we expect sufficient loss of phospho-Smads2/3. 

      (10) Figure S1A: Rudhira migrated at the position corresponding to 91 kD only in this panel.

      Corrected the position of molecular weight marker.

      (11) Line 205-206, "Since in vivo studies indicate that rudhira depletion severely affects the TGFβ pathway [11]": Refer to Reference 11. The paper does not say anything about TGFβ.

      Reference corrected to Ref #14.

      (12) Smad4 was previously reported to be sequestered to microtubules [Ref. 7]. Does Rudhira release Smad4 also?

      This is an interesting point which could be followed up on our future studies.

      (13) It would be nice if the authors examined how Rudhira causes the release of Smad2/3 from microtubules. Currently, it remains unclear whether the association of Rudhira to microtubules is required for the release of Smad2/3. Does a Rudhira mutant lacking microtubule binding fail to induce the release of Smad2/3 after TGF-β stimulation? If so, do Rudhira and Smad2/3 share the same binding site on microtubules? In that case, the mechanism can be regarded as "competitive".

      This is a thoughtful experiment much beyond the scope of current manuscript. In our previous study we were able to localize the Tubulin binding sites of Rudhira primarily to its Bcas3 domain (Joshi and Inamdar, 2019), however the equivalent sites in Tubulin were not assessed. While MH2 domains of Smad2/3 bind β-tubulin, amino acids 114-243 of β-tubulin bind to Smad2/3 (Dai et al., 2007). A systematic study of these tripartite interactions including Rudhira would be an interesting follow up for our future study.

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authiors show that SVZ derived astrocytes respond to a middle carotid artery occlusion (MCAO) hypoxia lesion by secreting and modulating hyaluronan at the edge of the lesion (penumbra) and that hyaluronin is a chemoattractant to SVZ astrocytes. They use lineage tracing of SVZ cells to determine their origin. They also find that SVZ derived astrocytes express Thbs-4 but astrocytes at the MCAO-induced scar do not. Also, they demonstrate that decreased HA in the SVZ is correlated with gliogenesis. While much of the paper is descriptive/correlative they do overexpress Hyaluronan synthase 2 via viral vectors and show this is sufficient to recruit astrocytes to the injury. Interestingly, astrocytes preferred to migrate to the MCAO than to the region of overexpressed HAS2.

      Strengths:

      The field has largely ignored the gliogenic response of the SVZ, especially with regards to astrocytic function. These cells and especially newborn cells may provide support for regeneration. Emigrated cells from the SVZ have been shown to be neuroprotective via creating pro-survival environments, but their expression and deposition of beneficial extracellular matrix molecules is poorly understood. Therefore, this study is timely and important. The paper is very well written and flow of result logical.

      Comments on revised version:

      Thanks for addressing my final points.

    2. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):  

      Summary:  

      The authors show that SVZ derived astrocytes respond to a middle carotid artery occlusion

      (MCAO) hypoxia lesion by secreting and modulating hyaluronan at the edge of the lesion (penumbra) and that hyaluronan is a chemoattractant to SVZ astrocytes. They use lineage tracing of SVZ cells to determine their origin. They also find that SVZ derived astrocytes express Thbs-4 but astrocytes at the MCAO-induced scar do not. Also, they demonstrate that decreased HA in the SVZ is correlated with gliogenesis. While much of the paper is descriptive/correlative they do overexpress Hyaluronan synthase 2 via viral vectors and show this is sufficient to recruit astrocytes to the injury. Interestingly, astrocytes preferred to migrate to the MCAO than to the region of overexpressed HAS2.  

      Strengths:  

      The field has largely ignored the gliogenic response of the SVZ, especially with regards to astrocytic function. These cells and especially newborn cells may provide support for regeneration. Emigrated cells from the SVZ have been shown to be neuroprotective via creating pro-survival environments, but their expression and deposition of beneficial extracellular matrix molecules is poorly understood. Therefore, this study is timely and important. The paper is very well written and the flow of results logical.  

      Comments on revised version:  

      The authors have addressed my points and the paper is much improved. Here are the salient remaining issues that I suggest be addressed.  

      We appreciate the feedback by the reviewer, and we are glad that the paper is considered to be much improved. We have done our best to address the remaining issues in this 2nd revision.

      The authors have still not shown, using loss of function studies, that Hyaluronan is necessary for SVZ astrogenesis and or migration to MCAO lesions.

      This is true. Unfortunately, complete removal of hyaluronan (via Hyase) triggers epilepsy, already described in 1963 by James Young (Exp Neurol paper). Degradation by Hyase also provokes neuroinflammation (Soria et al., 2020 Nat Commun). Two alternatives could be 1) partial depletion with Has inhibitor 4MU (but it is also associated with increased inflammation) or 2) a Has-KO mouse, such as Has3-/- (Arranz et al., 2014), although, to our knowledge, this mouse line is not openly available. We have added a sentence in line 332 addressing this shortcoming: “Loss-of-function studies, using HA-depletion models or HA synthase (Has)deficient mice are still needed to corroborate this finding, although the inflammation associated with HA deficiency might confound interpretation.”

      (1) The co-expression of EGFr with Thbs4 and the literature examination is useful.  

      We thank the reviewer for the kind comment.

      (2) Too bad they cannot explain the lack of effect of the MCAO on type C cells. The comparison with kainate-induced epilepsy in the hippocampus may or may not be relevant.

      As stated in the previous response, we also found this interesting, and it does warrant further exploration by looking into possible direct NSC-astrocyte differentiation. But we believe that both this possible direct differentiation and the reactive status for these astrocytes are out of the scope of the study. We will not speculate about this in the discussion, either.

      (3) Thanks for including the orthogonal confocal views in Fig S6D.  

      (4) The statement that "BrdU+/Thbs4+ cells mostly in the dorsal area" and therefore they mostly focused on that region is strange. Figure 8 clearly shows Thbs4 staining all along the striatal SVZ. Do they mean the dorsal segment of the striatal SVZ or the subcallosal SVZ? Fig. 4b and Fig 4f clearly show the "subcallosal" area as the one analysed but other figures show the dorsal striatal region (Fig. 2a). This is important because of the well-known embryological and neurogenic differences between the regions.  

      While it is true that Thbs4 is also expressed in the other subregions of the SVZ (lateral, ventral and medial), as observed in Fig 8. we chose the dorsal area because it is the subregion where we observed the larger increase in slow proliferative NSCs (Thbs4/GFAP/BrdU-positive cells) after MCAO (Fig S3). As observed in the quantifications in Fig S3, we found Thbs4/GFAP/BrdUpositive cells increase in lateral, medial and ventral SVZ, but it is not significant. Therefore, from Fig 4 onwards, we focused on the dorsal SVZ, which the reviewer mentions as “subcallosal” area. We chose the term “dorsal” as stated in single-cell studies (Cebrian-Silla et al, 2021, eLife; Marcy et al., 2023, Sci Adv) and reviews (Sequerra 2014 Front Cell Neurosci) that investigate or mention this subregion, respectively. In the abstract, we are perfectly clear stating that newborn astrocytes migrate frm both dorsal and medial areas.  

      In Fig 2a, the immunofluorescence image shows medial and lateral SVZ, but at this point in the paper, we have not yet made specific subregional quantifications, and the Nestin, DCX and Thbs4 quantifications refer to the SVZ as a whole, both in the IF and in the WB (Fig 2e-g). We apologize for the confusion. We have clarified this in the text (line 119).  

      (5) It is good to know that the harsh MCAO's had already been excluded.  

      (6) Sorry for the lack of clarity - in addition to Thbs4, I was referring to mouse versus rat Hyaluronan degradation genes (Hyal1, Hyal2 and Hyal3) and hyaluronan synthase genes (HAS1 and HAS2) in order to address the overall species differences in hyaluronan biology thus justifying the "shift" from mouse to rat. You examine these in the (weirdly positioned) Fig. 8h,i. Please add a few sentences on mouse vs rat Thbs4 and Hyaluronan relevant genes.  

      We thank the reviewer for these remarks. We have now added a sentence pointing to the similar internalization and degradation in rat and mouse (reviewed by Sherman et al., 2015). This correction is in line 233. Hyaluronan is, in evolutionary terms, a very “old” molecule, part of the “ancient” glycan-based matrix, before the evolution of proteoglycans and fibrous proteins such as collagen, laminin etc. Hence, its machinery is highly conserved across species.

      We have also reorganized the panels in Fig 8, where 8h and 8i were indeed weirdly positioned. We hope that the new version of this figure is more easily readable.

      (7) Thank you for the better justification of using the naked mole rat HA synthase.  

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):  

      Summary:  

      The authors aimed to study the activation of gliogenesis and the role of newborn astrocytes in a post-ischemic scenario. Combining immunofluorescence, BrdU-tracing and genetic cellular labelling, they tracked the migration of newborn astrocytes (expressing Thbs4) and found that Thbs4-positive astrocytes modulate the extracellular matrix at the lesion border by synthesis but also degradation of hyaluronan. Their results point to a relevant function of SVZ newborn astrocytes in the modulation of the glial scar after brain ischemia. This work's major strength is the fact that it is tackling the function of SVZ newborn astrocytes, whose role is undisclosed so far.  

      Strengths:  

      The article is innovative, of good quality, and clearly written, with properly described Materials and Methods, data analysis and presentation. In general, the methods are designed properly to answer the main question of the authors, being a major strength. Interpretation of the data is also in general well done, with results supporting the main conclusions of this article.  

      In this revised version, the points raised/weaknesses were clarified and discussed in the article.  

      Recommendations for the authors:  

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):  

      Minor points:  

      (1) Thanks for the clarification.  

      (2) Thanks for the clarification.  

      (3) The magnification is not apparent in Fig. 5.  

      We had removed two brain slices (from 4 to 2) in order to increase the size of the image 2-fold. We have now further increased the TTC panel, 25% from the revised version, 125% from the original.

      (4) Thanks for the clarification.  

      (5) Thanks for the clarification.  

      (6) Thanks for the clarification.  

      (7) Thanks for the clarification.  

      (8) Thanks for the clarification.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      (1) As VRMate (a component of behaviorMate) is written using Unity, what is the main advantage of using behaviorMate/VRMate compared to using Unity alone paired with Arduinos (e.g. Campbell et al. 2018), or compared to using an existing toolbox to interface with Unity (e.g. Alsbury-Nealy et al. 2022, DOI: 10.3758/s13428-021-01664-9)? For instance, one disadvantage of using Unity alone is that it requires programming in C# to code the task logic. It was not entirely clear whether VRMate circumvents this disadvantage somehow -- does it allow customization of task logic and scenery in the GUI? Does VRMate add other features and/or usability compared to Unity alone? It would be helpful if the authors could expand on this topic briefly.

      We have updated the manuscript (lines 412-422) to clarify the benefits of separating the VR system as an isolated program and a UI that can be run independently. We argue that “…the recommended behaviorMate architecture has several important advantages. Firstly, by rendering each viewing angle of a scene on a dedicated device, performance is improved by splitting the computational costs across several inexpensive devices rather than requiring specialized or expensive graphics cards in order to run…, the overall system becomes more modular and easier to debug [and] implementing task logic in Unity would require understanding Object-Oriented Programming and C# … which is not always accessible to researchers that are typically more familiar with scripting in Python and Matlab.”

      VRMate receives detailed configuration info from behaviorMate at runtime as to which VR objects to display and receives position updates during experiments. Any other necessary information about triggering rewards or presenting non-VR cues is still handled by the UI so no editing of Unity is necessary. Scene configuration information is in the same JSON format as the settings files for behaviorMate, additionally there are Unity Editor scripts which are provided in the VRmate repository which permit customizing scenes through a “drag and drop” interface and then writing the scene configuration files programmatically. Users interested in these features should see our github page to find example scene.vr files and download the VRMate repository (including the editor scripts).  We provided 4 vr contexts, as well as a settings file that uses one of them which can be found on the behaviorMate github page (https://github.com/losonczylab/behaviorMate) in the “vr_contexts” and “example_settigs_files” directories. These examples are provided to assist VRMate users in getting set up and could provide a more detailed example of how VRMate and behaviorMate interact.

      (2) The section on "context lists", lines 163-186, seemed to describe an important component of the system, but this section was challenging to follow and readers may find the terminology confusing. Perhaps this section could benefit from an accompanying figure or flow chart, if these terms are important to understand.

      We maintain the use of the term context and context list in order to maintain a degree of parity with the java code. However, we have updated lines 173-175 to define the term context for the behaviorMate system: “... a context is grouping of one or more stimuli that get activated concurrently. For many experiments it is desirable to have multiple contexts that are triggered at various locations and times in order to construct distinct or novel environments.”

      a. Relatedly, "context" is used to refer to both when the animal enters a particular state in the task like a reward zone ("reward context", line 447) and also to describe a set of characteristics of an environment (Figure 3G), akin to how "context" is often used in the navigation literature. To avoid confusion, one possibility would be to use "environment" instead of "context" in Figure 3G, and/or consider using a word like "state" instead of "context" when referring to the activation of different stimuli.

      Thank you for the suggestion. We have updated Figure 3G to say “Environment” in order to avoid confusion.

      (3) Given the authors' goal of providing a system that is easily synchronizable with neural data acquisition, especially with 2-photon imaging, I wonder if they could expand on the following features:

      a. The authors mention that behaviorMate can send a TTL to trigger scanning on the 2P scope (line 202), which is a very useful feature. Can it also easily generate a TTL for each frame of the VR display and/or each sample of the animal's movement? Such TTLs can be critical for synchronizing the imaging with behavior and accounting for variability in the VR frame rate or sampling rate.

      Different experimental demands require varying levels of precision in this kind of synchronization signals. For this reason, we have opted against a “one-size fits all” for synchronization with physiology data in behaviorMate. Importantly this keeps the individual rig costs low which can be useful when constructing setups specifically for use when training animals. behaviorMate will log TTL pulses sent to GPIO pins setup as sensors, and can be configured to generate TTL pulses at regular intervals. Additionally all UDP packets received by the UI are time stamped and logged. We also include the output of the arduino millis() function in all UDP packets which can be used for further investigation of clock drift between system components. Importantly, since the system is event driven there cannot be accumulating drift across running experiments between the behaviorMate UI and networked components such as the VR system.

      For these reasons, we have not needed to implement a VR frame synchronization TTL for any of our experiments, however, one could extend VRMate to send "sync" packets back to behaviorMate to log when each frame was displayed precisely or TTL pulses (if using the same ODROID hardware we recommend in the standard setup for rendering scenes). This would be useful if it is important to account for slight changes in the frame rate at which the scenes are displayed. However, splitting rendering of large scenes between several devices results in fast update times and our testing and benchmarks indicate that display updates are smooth and continuous enough to appear coupled to movement updates from the behavioral apparatus and sufficient for engaging navigational circuits in the brain.

      b. Is there a limit to the number of I/O ports on the system? This might be worth explicitly mentioning.

      We have updated lines 219-220 in the manuscript to provide this information: Sensors and actuators can be connected to the controller using one of the 13 digital or 5 analog input/output connectors.

      c. In the VR version, if each display is run by a separate Android computer, is there any risk of clock drift between displays? Or is this circumvented by centralized control of the rendering onset via the "real-time computer"?

      This risk is mitigated by the real-time computer/UI sending position updates to the VR displays. The maximum amount scenes can be out of sync is limited because they will all recalibrate on every position update – which occurs multiple times per second as the animal is moving. Moreover, because position updates are constantly being sent by behaviorMate to VRMate and VRMate is immediately updating the scene according to this position, the most the scene can become out of sync with the mouse's position is proportional to the maximum latency multiplied by the running speed of the mouse. For experiments focusing on eliciting an experience of navigation, such a degree of asynchrony is almost always negligible. For other experimental demands it could be possible to incorporate more precise frame timing information but this was not necessary for our use case and likely for most other use cases. Additionally, refer to the response to comment 3a.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      (1) The central controlling logic is coupled with GUI and an event loop, without a documented plugin system. It's not clear whether arbitrary code can be executed together with the GUI, hence it's not clear how much the functionality of the GUI can be easily extended without substantial change to the source code of the GUI. For example, if the user wants to perform custom real-time analysis on the behavior data (potentially for closed-loop stimulation), it's not clear how to easily incorporate the analysis into the main GUI/control program.

      Without any edits to the existing source code behaviorMate is highly customizable through the settings files, which allow users to combine the existing contexts and decorators in arbitrary combinations. Therefore, users have been able to perform a wide variety of 1D navigation tasks, well beyond our anticipated use cases by generating novel settings files. The typical method for providing closed-loop stimulation would be to set up a context which is triggered by animal behavior using decorators (e.g. based on position, lap number and time) and then trigger the stimulation with a TTL pulse. Rarely, if users require a behavioral condition not currently implemented or composable out of existing decorators, it would require generating custom code in Java to extend the UI. Performing such edits requires only knowledge of basic object-oriented programming in Java and generating a single subclass of either the BasicContextList or ContextListDecorator classes. In addition, the JavaFX (under development) version of behaviorMate incorporates a plugin which doesn't require recompiling the code in order to make these changes. However, since the JavaFX software is currently under development, documentation does not yet exist. All software is open-sourced and available on github.com for users interested in generating plugins or altering the source code.

      We have added the additional caveat to the manuscript in order to clarify this point (Line 197-202): “However, if the available set of decorators is not enough to implement the required task logic, some modifications to the source code may be necessary. These modifications, in most cases, would be very simple and only a basic understanding of object-oriented programming is required. A case where this might be needed would be performing novel customized real-time analysis on behavior data and activating a stimulus based on the result”

      (2) The JSON messaging protocol lacks API documentation. It's not clear what the exact syntax is, supported key/value pairs, and expected response/behavior of the JSON messages. Hence, it's not clear how to develop new hardware that can communicate with the behaviorMate system.

      The most common approach for adding novel hardware is to use TTL pulses (or accept an emitted TTL pulse to read sensor states). This type of hardware addition  is possible through the existing GPIO without the need to interact with the software or JSON API. Users looking to take advantage of the ability to set up and configure novel behavioral paradigms without the need to write any software would be limited to adding hardware which could be triggered with and report to the UI with a TTL pulse (however fairly complex actions could be triggered this way).

      For users looking to develop more customized hardware solutions that interact closely with the UI or GPIO board, additional documentation on the JSON messaging protocol has been added to the behaviormate-utils repository (https://github.com/losonczylab/behaviormate_utils). Additionally, we have added a link to this repository in the Supplemental Materials section (line 971) and referenced this in the manuscript (line 217) to make it easier for readers to find this information.

      Furthermore, developers looking to add completely novel components to the UI  can implement the interface described by Context.java in order to exchange custom messages with hardware. (described  in the JavaDoc: https://www.losonczylab.org/behaviorMate-1.0.0/)  These messages would be defined within the custom context and interact with the custom hardware (meaning the interested developer would make a novel addition to the messaging API). Additionally, it should be noted that without editing any software, any UDP packets sent to behaviorMate from an IP address specified in the settings will get time stamped and logged in the stored behavioral data file meaning that are a large variety of hardware implementation solutions using both standard UDP messaging and through TTL pulses that can work with behaviorMate with minimal effort. Finally, see response to R2.1 for a discussion of the JavaFX version of the behaviorMatee UI including plugin support.

      (3) It seems the existing control hardware and the JSON messaging only support GPIO/TTL types of input/output, which limits the applicability of the system to more complicated sensor/controller hardware. The authors mentioned that hardware like Arduino natively supports serial protocols like I2C or SPI, but it's not clear how they are handled and translated to JSON messages.

      We provide an implementation for an I2C-based capacitance lick detector which interested developers may wish to copy if support for novel I2C or SPI. Users with less development experience wishing to expand the hardware capabilities of  behaviorMatecould also develop adapters which can be triggered  on a TTL input/output. Additionally, more information about the JSON API and how messages are transmitted to the PC by the arduino is described in point (2) and the expanded online documentation.

      a. Additionally, because it's unclear how easy to incorporate arbitrary hardware with behaviorMate, the "Intranet of things" approach seems to lose attraction. Since currently, the manuscript focuses mainly on a specific set of hardware designed for a specific type of experiment, it's not clear what are the advantages of implementing communication over a local network as opposed to the typical connections using USB.

      As opposed to serial communication protocols as typical with USB, networking protocols seamlessly function based on asynchronous message passing. Messages may be routed internally (e.g. to a PCs localhost address, i.e. 0.0.0..0) or to a variety of external hardware (e.g. using IP addresses such as those in the range 192.168.1.2 - 192.168.1.254). Furthermore, network-based communication allows modules, such as VR, to be added easily. behavoirMate systems can be easily expanded using low-cost Ethernet switches and consume only a single network adapter on the PC (e.g. not limited by the number of physical USB ports). Furthermore, UDP message passing is implemented in almost all modern programming languages in a platform independent manner (meaning that the same software can run on OSX, Windows, and Linux). Lastly, as we have pointed out (Line 117) a variety of tools exist for inspecting network packets and debugging; meaning that it is possible to run behaviorMate with simulated hardware for testing and debugging.

      The IOT nature of behaviorMate means there is no requirement for novel hardware to be implemented  using an arduino,  since any system capable of  UDP communication can  be configured. For example, VRMate is usually run on Odroid C4s, however one could easily create a system using Raspberry Pis or even additional PCs. behaviorMate is agnostic to the format of the UDP messages, but packaging any data in the JSON format for consistency would be encouraged. If a new hardware is a sensor that has input requiring it to be time stamped and logged then all that is needed is to add the IP address and port information to the ‘controllers’ list in a behaviorMate settings file. If more complex interactions are needed with novel hardware than a custom implementation of ContextList.java may be required (see response to R2.2). However, the provided UdpComms.java class could be used to easily send/receive messages from custom Context.java subclasses.

      Solutions for highly customized hardware do require basic familiarity with object-oriented programming using the Java programming language. However, in our experience most behavioral experiments do not require these kinds of modifications. The majority of 1D navigation tasks, which behaviorMate is currently best suited to control, require touch/motion sensors, LEDs, speakers, or solenoid valves,  which are easily controlled by the existing GPIO implementation. It is unlikely that custom subclasses would even be needed.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      (1) While using UDP for data transmission can enhance speed, it is thought that it lacks reliability. Are there error-checking mechanisms in place to ensure reliable communication, given its criticality alongside speed?

      The provided GPIO/behavior controller implementation sends acknowledgement packets in response to all incoming messages as well as start and stop messages for contexts and “valves”. In this way the UI can update to reflect both requested state changes as well as when they actually happen (although there is rarely a perceptible gap between these two states unless something is unplugged or not functioning). See Line 85 in the revised manuscript “acknowledgement packets are used to ensure reliable message delivery to and from connected hardware”.

      (2) Considering this year's price policy changes in Unity, could this impact the system's operations?

      VRMate is not affected by the recent changes in pricing structure of the Unity project.

      The existing compiled VRMate software does not need to be regenerated to update VR scenes, or implement new task logic (since this is handled by the behaviorMate GUI). Therefore, the VRMate program is robust to any future pricing changes or other restructuring of the Unity program and does not rely on continued support of Unity. Additionally, while the solution presented in VRMate has many benefits, a developer could easily adapt any open-source VR Maze project to receive the UDP-based position updates from behaviorMate or develop their own novel VR solutions.

      (3) Also, does the Arduino offer sufficient precision for ephys recording, particularly with a 10ms check?

      Electrophysiology recording hardware typically has additional I/O channels which can provide assistance with tracking behavior/synchronization at a high resolution. While behaviorMate could still be used to trigger reward valves, either the ephys hardware or some additional high-speed DAQ would be recommended to maintain accurately with high-speed physiology data. behaviorMate could still be set up as normal to provide closed and open-loop task control at behaviorally relevant timescales alongside a DAQ circuit recording events at a consistent temporal resolution. While this would increase the relative cost of the individual recording setup, identical rigs for training animals could still be configured without the DAQ circuit avoiding unnecessary cost and complexity.

      (4) Could you clarify the purpose of the Sync Pulse? In line 291, it suggests additional cues (potentially represented by the Sync Pulse) are needed to align the treadmill screens, which appear to be directed towards the Real-Time computer. Given that event alignment occurs in the GPIO, the connection of the Sync Pulse to the Real-Time Controller in Figure 1 seems confusing.

      A number of methods exist for synchronizing recording devices like microscopes or electrophysiology recordings with behaviorMate’s time-stamped logs of actuators and sensors. For example, the GPIO circuit can be configured to send sync triggers, or receive timing signals as input. Alternatively a dedicated circuit could record frame start signals and relay them to the PC to be logged independently of the GPIO (enabling a high-resolution post-hoc alignment of the time stamps). The optimal method to use varies based on the needs of the experiment. Our setups have a dedicated BNC output and specification in the settings file that sends a TTL pulse at the start of an experiment in order to trigger 2p imaging setups (see line 224, specifically that this is a detail of “our” 2p imaging setup). We provide this information as it might be useful suggesting how to have both behavior and physiology data start recording at the same time. We do not intend this to be the only solution for alignment. Figure 1 indicates an “optional” circuit for capturing a high speed sync pulse and providing time stamps back to the real time PC. This is another option that might be useful for certain setups (or especially for establishing benchmarks between behavior and physiology recordings). In our setup event alignment does not exclusively occur on the GPIO.

      a. Additionally, why is there a separate circuit for the treadmill that connects to the UI computer instead of the GPIO? It might be beneficial to elaborate on the rationale behind this decision in line 260.

      Event alignment does not occur on the GPIO, separating concerns between position tracking and more general input/output features which improves performance and simplifies debugging.  In this sense we maintain a single event loop on the Arduino, avoiding the need to either run multithreaded operations or rely extensively on interrupts which can cause unpredictable code execution (e.g. when multiple interrupts occur at the same time). Our position tracking circuit is therefore coupled to a separate,low-cost arduino mini which has the singular responsibility of position-tracking.

      b. Moreover, should scenarios involving pupil and body camera recordings connect to the Analog input in the PCB or the real-time computer for optimal data handling and processing?

      Pupil and body camera recordings would be independent data streams which can be recorded separately from behaviorMate. Aligning these forms of full motion video could require frame triggers which could be configured on the GPIO board using single TTL like outputs or by configuring a valve to be “pulsed” which is a provided type customization.

      We also note that a more advanced developer could easily leverage camera signals to provide closed loop control by writing an independent module that sends UDP packets to behavoirMate. For example a separate computer vision based position tracking module could be written in any preferred language and use UDP messaging to send body tracking updates to the UI without editing any of the behaviorMate source code (and even used for updating 1D location).

      (5) Given that all references, as far as I can see, come from the same lab, are there other labs capable of implementing this system at a similar optimal level?

      To date two additional labs have published using behaviorMate, the Soltez and Henn labs (see revised lines 341-342). Since behaviorMate has only recently been published and made available open source, only external collaborators of the Losonczy lab have had access to the software and design files needed to do this. These collaborators did, however, set up their own behavioral setups in separate locations with minimal direct support from the authors–similar to what would be available to anyone seeking to set a behaviorMate system would find online on our github page or by posting to the message board.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (4) To provide additional context for the significance of this work, additional citations would be helpful to demonstrate a ubiquitous need for a system like behaviorMate. This was most needed in the paragraph from lines 46-65, specifically for each sentence after line 55, where the authors discuss existing variants on head-fixed behavioral paradigms. For instance, for the clause "but olfactory and auditory stimuli have also been utilized at regular virtual distance intervals to enrich the experience with more salient cues", suggested citations include Radvansky & Dombeck 2018 (DOI: 10.1038/s41467-018-03262-4), Fischler-Ruiz et al. 2021 (DOI: 10.1016/j.neuron.2021.09.055).

      We thank the reviewer for the suggested missing citations and have updated the manuscript accordingly (see line 58).

      (5) In addition, it would also be helpful to clarify behaviorMate's implementation in other laboratories. On line 304 the authors mention "other labs" but the following list of citations is almost exclusively from the Losonczy lab. Perhaps the citations just need to be split across the sentence for clarity? E.g. "has been validated by our experimental paradigms" (citation set 1) "and successfully implemented in other labs as well" (citation set 2).

      We have split the citation set as suggested (see lines 338-342).

      Minor Comments:

      (6) In the paragraph starting line 153 and in Fig. 2, please clarify what is meant by "trial" vs. "experiment". In many navigational tasks, "trial" refers to an individual lap in the environment, but here "trial" seems to refer to the whole behavioral session (i.e. synonymous with "experiment"?).

      In our software implementation we had originally used “trial” to refer to an imaging session rather than experiment (and have made updates to start moving to the more conventional lexicon). To avoid confusion we have remove this use of “trial” throughout the manuscript and replaced with “experiment” whenever possible

      (7) This is very minor, but in Figure 3 and 4, I don't believe the gavage needle is actually shown in the image. This is likely to avoid clutter but might be confusing to some readers, so it may be helpful to have a small inset diagram showing how the needle would be mounted.

      We assessed the image both with and without the gavage needle and found the version in the original (without) to be easier to read and less cluttered and therefore maintained that version in the manuscript.

      (8) In Figure 5 legend, please list n for mice and cells.

      We have updated the Figure 5 legend to indicate that for panels C-G, n=6 mice (all mice were recorded in both VR and TM systems), 3253 cells in VR classified as significantly tuned place cells VR, and 6101 tuned cells in TM,

      (9) Line 414: It is not necessary to tilt the entire animal and running wheel as long as the head-bar clamp and objective can rotate to align the imaging window with the objective's plane of focus. Perhaps the authors can just clarify the availability of this option if users have a microscope with a rotatable objective/scan head.

      We have added the suggested caveat to the manuscript in order to clarify when the goniometers might be useful (see lines 281-288).

      (10) Figure S1 and S2 could be referenced explicitly in the main text with their related main figures.

      We have added explicit references to figures S1 and S2 in the relevant sections (see lines 443, 460  and 570)

      (11) On line 532-533, is there a citation for "proximal visual cues and tactile cues (which are speculated to be more salient than visual cues)"?

      We have added citations to both Knierim & Rao 2003 and Renaudineau et al. 2007 which discuss the differential impact of proximal vs distal cues during navigation as well as Sofroniew et al. 2014 which describe how mice navigate more naturally in a tactile VR setup as opposed to purely visual ones.

      (12) There is a typo at the end of the Figure 2 legend, where it should say "Arduino Mini."

      This typo has been fixed.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (4) As mentioned in the public review: what is the major advantage of taking the IoT approaches as opposed to USB connections to the host computer, especially when behaviorMate relies on a central master computer regardless? The authors mentioned the readability of the JSON messages, making the system easier to debug. However, the flip side of that is the efficiency of data transmission. Although the bandwidth/latency is usually more than enough for transmitting data and commands for behavior devices, the efficiency may become a problem when neural recording devices (imaging or electrophysiology) need to be included in the system.

      behaviorMate is not intended to do everything, and is limited to mainly controlling behavior and providing some synchronizing TTL style triggers. In this way the system can easily and inexpensively be replicated across multiple recording setups; particularly this is useful for constructing additional animal training setups. The system is very much sufficient for capturing behavioral inputs at relevant timescales (see the benchmarks in Figures 3 and 4 as well as the position correlated neural activity in Figures 5 and 6 for demonstration of this). Additional hardware might be needed to align the behaviorMate output with neural data for example a high-speed DAQ or input channels on electrophysiology recording setups could be utilized (if provided). As all recording setups are different the ideal solution would depend on details which are hard to anticipate. We do not mean to convey that the full neural data would be transmitted to the behaviorMate system (especially using the JSON/UDP communications that behaviorMate relies on).

      (5) The author mentioned labView. A popular open-source alternative is bonsai (https://github.com/bonsai-rx/bonsai). Both include a graphical-based programming interface that allows the users to easily reconfigure the hardware system, which behaviorMate seems to lack. Additionally, autopilot (https://github.com/auto-pi-lot/autopilot) is a very relevant project that utilizes a local network for multiple behavior devices but focuses more on P2P communication and rigorously defines the API/schema/communication protocols for devices to be compatible. I think it's important to include a discussion on how behaviorMate compares to previous works like these, especially what new features behaviorMate introduces.

      We believe that behaviorMate provides a more opinionated and complete solution than the projects mentioned. A wide variety of 1D navigational paradigms can be constructed in behaviorMate without the need to write any novel software. For example, bonsai is a “visual programming language” and would require experimenters to construct a custom implementation of each of their experiments. We have opted to use Java for the UI with distributed computations across modules in various languages. Given the IOT methodology it would be possible to use any number of programming languages or APIs; a large number of design decisions were made  when building the project and we have opted to not include this level of detail in the manuscript in order to maintain readability. We strongly believe in using non-proprietary and open source projects, when possible, which is why the comparison with LabView based solutions was included in the introduction. Also, we have added a reference to the autopilot reference to the section of the introduction where this is discussed.

      (6) One of the reasons labView/bonsai are popular is they are inherently parallel and can simultaneously respond to events from different hardware sources. While the JSON events in behaviorMate are asynchronous in nature, the handling of those events seems to happen only in a main event loop coupled with GUI, which is sequential by nature. Is there any multi-threading/multi-processing capability of behaviorMate? If so it's an important feature to highlight. If not I think it's important to discuss the potential limitation of the current implementation.

      IOT solutions are inherently concurrent since the computation is distributed. Additional parallelism could be added by further distributing concerns between additional independent modules running on independent hardware. The UI has an eventloop which aggregates inputs and then updates contexts based on the current state of those inputs sequentially. This sort of a “snapshot” of the current state is necessary to reason about when the start certain contexts based on their settings and applied decorators. While the behaviorMate UI uses multithreading libraries in Java to be more performant in certain cases, the degree to which this represents true vs “virtual” concurrency would depend on the individual PC architecture it is run on and how the operating system allocates resources. For this reason, we have argued in the manuscript that behaviorMate is sufficient for controlling experiments at behaviorally relevant timescales, and have presented both benchmarks and discussed different synchronization approaches and permit users to determine if this is sufficient for their needs.

      (7) The context list is an interesting and innovative approach to abstract behavior contingencies into a data structure, but it's not currently discussed in depth. I think it's worth highlighting how the context list can be used to cover a wide range of common behavior experimental contingencies with detailed examples (line 185 might be a good example to give). It's also important to discuss the limitation, as currently the context lists seem to only support contingencies based purely on space and time, without support for more complicated behavior metrics (e.g. deliver reward only after X% correct).

      To access more complex behavior metrics during runtime, custom context list decorators would need to be implemented. While this is less common in the sort of 1D navigational behaviors the project was originally designed to control, adding novel decorators is a simple process that only requires basic object oriented programming knowledge. As discussed we are also implementing a plugin-architecture in the JavaFX update to streamline these types of additions.

      Minor Comments:

      (8) In line 202, the author suggests that a single TTL pulse is sent to mark the start of a recording session, and this is used to synchronize behavior data with imaging data later. In other words, there are no synchronization signals for every single sample/frame. This approach either assumes the behavior recording and imaging are running on the same clock or assumes evenly distributed recording samples over the whole recording period. Is this the case? If so, please include a discussion on limitations and alternative approaches supported by behaviorMate. If not, please clarify how exactly synchronization is done with one TTL pulse.

      While the TTL pulse triggers the start of neural data in our setups, various options exist for controlling for the described clock drift across experiments and the appropriate one depends on the type of recordings made, frame rate duration of recording etc. Therefore behaviorMate leaves open many options for synchronization at different time scales (e.g. the adding a frame-sync circuit as shown in Figure 1 or sending TTL pulses to the same DAQ recording electrophysiology data).  Expanded consideration of different synchronization methods has been included in the manuscript (see lines 224-238).

      (9) Is the computer vision-based calibration included as part of the GUI functionality? Please clarify. If it is part of the GUI, it's worth highlighting as a very useful feature.

      The computer vision-based benchmarking is not included in the GUI. It is in the form of a script made specifically for this paper. However for treadmill-based experiments behaviorMate has other calibration tools built into it (see line 301-303).

      (10) I went through the source code of the Arduino firmware, and it seems most "open X for Y duration" functions are implemented using the delay function. If this is indeed the case, it's generally a bad idea since delay completely pauses the execution and any events happening during the delay period may be missed. As an alternative, please consider approaches comparing timestamps or using interrupts.

      We have avoided the use of interrupts on the GPIO due to the potential for unpredictable code execution. There is a delay which is only just executed if the duration is 10 ms or less as we cannot guarantee precision of the arduino eventloop cycling faster than this. Durations longer than 10 ms would be time stamped and non-blocking. We have adjusted this MAX_WAIT to be specified as a macro so it can be more easily adjusted (or set to 0).

      (11) Figure 3 B, C, D, and Figure 4 D, E suffer from noticeable low resolution.

      We have converted Figure 3B, C, D and 4C, D, E to vector graphics in order to improve the resolution.

      (12) Figure 4C is missing, which is an important figure.

      This figure appeared when we rendered and submitted the manuscript. We apologize if the figure was generated such that it did not load properly in all pdf viewers. The panel appears correctly in the online eLife version of the manuscript. Additionally, we have checked the revision in Preview on Mac OS as well as Adobe Acrobat and the built-in viewer in Chrome and all figure panels appear in each so we hope this issue has been resolved.

      (13) There are thin white grid lines on all heatmaps. I don't think they are necessary.

      The grid lines have been removed from the heatmaps  as suggested.

      (14) Line 562 "sometimes devices directly communicate with each other for performance reasons", I didn't find any elaboration on the P2P communication in the main text. This is potentially worth highlighting as it's one of the advantages of taking the IoT approaches.

      In our implementation it was not necessary to rely on P2P communication beyond what is indicated in Figure 1. The direct communication referred to in line 562 is meant only to refer to the examples expanded on in the rest of the paragraph i.e. the behavior controller may signal the microscope directly using a TTL signal without looping back to the UI. As necessary users could implement UDP message passing between devices, but this is outside the scope of what we present in the manuscript.

      (15) Line 147 "Notably, due to the systems modular architecture, different UIs could be implemented in any programming language and swapped in without impacting the rest of the system.", this claim feels unsupported without a detailed discussion of how new code can be incorporated in the GUI (plugin system).

      This comment refers to the idea of implementing “different UIs”. This would entail users desiring to take advantage of the JSON messaging API and the proposed electronics while fully implementing their own interface. In order to facilitate this option we have improved documentation of the messaging API posted in the README file accompanying the arduino source code. We have added reference to the supplemental materials where readers can find a link to the JSON API implementation to clarify this point.

      Additionally, while a plugin system is available in the JavaFX version of behaviorMate, this project is currently under development and will update the online documentation as this project matures, but is unrelated to the intended claim about completely swapping out the UI.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (6) Figure 1 - the terminology for each item is slightly different in the text and the figure. I think making the exact match can make it easier for the reader.

      - Real-time computer (figure) vs real-time controller (ln88).

      The manuscript was adjusted to match figure terminology.

      - The position controller (ln565) - position tracking (Figure).

      We have updated Figure 1 to highlight that the position controller does the position tracking.

      - Maybe add a Behavior Controller next to the GPIO box in Figure 1.

      We updated Figure 1 to highlight that the Behavior Controller performs the GPIO responsibility such that "Behavior Controller" and "GPIO circuit" may be used interchangeably.

      - Position tracking (fig) and position controller (subtitle - ln209).

      We updated Figure 1 to highlight that the position controller does the position tracking.

      - Sync Pulse is not explained in the text.

      The caption for Figure 1 has been updated to better explain the Sync pulse and additional systems boxes

      (7) For Figure 3B/C: What is the number of data points? It would be nice to see the real population, possibly using a swarm plot instead of box plots. How likely are these outliers to occur?

      In order to better characterize the distributions presented in our benchmarking data we have added mean and standard deviation information the plots 3 and 4. For Figure 3B: 0.0025 +/- 0.1128, Figure 3C: 12.9749 +/- 7.6581, Figure 4C: 66.0500 +/- 15.6994, Figure 4E: 4.1258 +/- 3.2558.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Time periods in which experience regulates early plasticity in sensory circuits are well established, but the mechanisms that control these critical periods are poorly understood. In this manuscript, Leier and Foden and colleagues examine early-life critical periods that regulate the Drosophila antennal lobe, a model sensory circuit for understanding synaptic organization. Using early-life (0-2 days old) exposure to distinct odorants, they show that constant odor exposure markedly reduces the volume, synapse number, and function of the VM7 glomerulus. The authors offer evidence that these changes are mediated by invasion of ensheathing glia into the glomerulus where they phagocytose connections via a mechanism involving the engulfment receptor Draper.

      This manuscript is a striking example of a study where the questions are interesting, the authors spent a considerable amount of time to clearly think out the best experiments to ask their questions in the most straightforward way, and expressed the results in a careful, cogent, and well-written fashion. It was a genuine delight to read this paper. I have two experimental suggestions that would really round out existing work to better support the existing conclusions and some instances where additional data or tempered language in describing results would better support their conclusions. Overall, though, this is an incredibly important finding, a careful analysis, and an excellent mechanistic advance in understanding sensory critical period biology.

      We thank the reviewer for their thoughtful and constructive comments on our manuscript. In response to their critiques, we conducted several new experiments as well as additional analysis and making changes to the text. As requested, we carried out an electrophysiological analysis of VM7 PN firing in draper knockdown animals with and without odor exposure. To our surprise, loss of glial Draper fully suppresses the dramatic reduction in spontaneous PN activity observed following critical period ethyl butyrate exposure, arguing that the functional response is restored alongside OSN morphology. It also suggests that the OR42a OSN terminals are intact and functional until they are phagocytosed by ensheathing glia. In other words, glia are not merely clearing axon terminals that have already degenerated. This evidence provides additional support to the claim that the VM7 glomerulus will be an outstanding model for defining mechanism of experience-dependent glial pruning. Detailed responses to the reviewers’ comments follow below. 

      Regarding the apparent disconnect between the near complete silencing of PNs versus the 50% reduction in OR42a OSN infiltration volume, we agree with the reviewer that this tracks with previous data in the field. While our Imaris pipeline is relatively sensitive, it may not pick up modest changes to terminal arbor architecture. Indeed, as described in Jindal et al. (2023) and in the Methods in this manuscript, we chose conservative software settings that, if anything, would undercount the percent change in infiltration volume. We also note that increased inhibitory LN inputs onto PNs could contribute to dramatic PN silencing we observe. While fascinating, we view LN plasticity beyond the scope of the current manuscript. We removed any mention of ‘silent synapses’ and now speculate about increased inhibition. 

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Major Elements:

      (1) The authors demonstrate that loss of draper in glia can suppress many of the pruning related phenotypes associated with EB exposure. However, they do not assess electrophysiological output in these experiments, only morphology. It would be great to see recordings from those animals to see if the functional response is also restored.

      We performed the experiment the reviewer requested (see Figure 4F-J). We are pleased to report that our recordings from VM7 PNs match our morphology measurements: in repo-GAL4>UAS-draper RNAi flies, there was no difference in the innervation of VM7 PNs between animals exposed to mineral oil or 15% EB from 0-2 DPE. This result is in sharp contrast to the near-total loss of OSN-PN innervation in flies with intact glial Draper signaling, and strongly validates the role we propose for Draper in the Or42a OSN critical period.

      (2) There is a disconnect between physiology and morphology with a near complete loss of activity from VM7 PNs but a less severe loss of ORN synapses. While not completely incongruent (previous work in the AL showed a complete loss of attractive behavior though synapse number was only reduced 40% - Mosca et al. 2017, eLife), it is curious. Can the authors comment further? Ideally, some of these synapses could be visualized by EM to determine if the remaining synapses are indeed of correct morphology. If not, this could support their assertion of silent inputs from page 7. Further, what happens to the remaining synapses? VM7 PNs should be receiving some activity from other local interneurons as well as neighboring PNs.

      We agree that on the surface, our electrophysiology results are more striking than one might expect solely from our measurements of VM7 morphology and presynaptic content. As the reviewer points out, previous studies of fly olfaction have consistently found that relatively modest shifts in glomerular volume in response to prolonged earlylife odorant exposure can be accompanied by drastic changes in physiology and behavior (in addition, we would add Devaud et al., 2003; Devaud et al., 2001; Acebes et al., 2012; and Chodankar et al., 2020, as foundational examples of this phenomenon). 

      A major driver of these changes appears to be remodeling of antennal lobe inhibitory LNs (see Das et al., 2011; Wilson and Laurent, 2005; Chodankar et al., 2020), especially GABAergic inhibitory interneurons. Perhaps increased LN inhibition of chronically activated PNs, on top of the reduced excitatory inputs resulting from ensheathing glial pruning of the Or42a OSN terminal arbor, would explain the near-total loss of VM7 PN activity we observe after critical period EB exposure. However, given that the scope of our study is limited to critical-period glial biology and does not address the complex topics of LN rewiring or synapse morphology, we have removed the sentence in which we raise the possibility of “silent synapses” in order to avoid confusion. The reviewer is also correct that VM7 PNs have inputs from non-ORN presynaptic partners, including LNs and PNs. So again, perhaps increased inhibitory inputs contributes to the near-complete silencing of the PNs. Given the heterogeneity of LN populations, we view this area as fertile ground for future research. 

      Language / Data Considerations:

      (1) Or42a OSNs have other inputs, namely, from LNs. What are they doing here? Are they also affected?

      As discussed above, the question of how LN innervation of Or42a OSNs is altered by critical-period EB exposure is an intriguing one that fully deserves its own follow-up study, and we have tried to avoid speculation about the role of LNs when discussing our pruning phenotype. We note at multiple points throughout the text the importance of LNs and refer to previous studies of LN plasticity in response to chronic odorant exposure. 

      (2) In all of the measurements, what happens to synaptic density? Is it maintained? Does it scale precisely? This would be helpful to know.

      We have performed the analysis as requested, which is now included in a supplement to Figure 5. We found that synaptic density shows no trend in variation across conditions and glial driver genotypes.

      (3) In Figure 5, the controls for the alrm-GAL4 experiments show a much more drastic phenotype than controls in previous figures? Does this background influence how we can interpret the results? Could the response have instead hit a floor effect and it's just not possible to recover?

      The reviewer is correct that following EB exposure, astrocyte vs. ensheathing glial driver backgrounds displayed modest differences in the extent of pruning by volume (0.27 for astros, 0.36 for EG). We note that the two drpr RNAi lines that we used had non-significant (but opposite) effects on the estimated size of OSN42a OSN volume in combination with the astrocyte driver, arguing against a floor effect. In addition, a recent publication by Nelson et al. (2024) replicated our findings with a different astrocyte GAL4 driver and draper RNAi line. Thus, we are confident that this result is biologically meaningful and not an artifact of genetic background. 

      (4) The estimation of infiltration measurement in Figure 6 is tricky to interpret. It implies that the projections occupy the same space, which cannot be possible. I'd advocate a tempering of some of this language and consider an intensity measurement in addition to their current volume measurements (or perhaps an "occupied space" measurement) to more accurately assess the level of resolution that can be obtained via these methods.

      We completely agree that our language in describing EG infiltration could have been more precise, and we modified our language as suggested. The combination of the Or42a-mCD8::GFP label we and others use, our use of confocal microscopy, and our Surface pipeline in Imaris combine to create a glomerular mask that traces the outline of the OSN terminal arbor, but is nonetheless not 100% “filled” by neuronal membrane and/or glial processes. 

      (5) Do the authors have the kind of resolution needed to tell whether there is indeed Or42a-positive axon fragmentation (as asserted on p16 and from their data in figures 4, 5, 7). If the authors want to say this, I would advocate for a measurement of fragmentation / total volume to prove it - if not, I would advocate tempering of the current language.

      The reviewer brings up a fair criticism: while our assertion about axon fragmentation was based on our visual observations of hundreds of EB-exposed brains, the resolution limits of confocal microscopy do not allow us to rigorously rule out fragmentation within a bundle of OSN axons. Instead, our most compelling evidence for the lack of EB-induced Or42a OSN fragmentation in the absence of glial Draper comes from our new electrophysiology data (Figure 4F-J) in repo-GAL4>UAS-draper RNAi animals. We found no difference in spontaneous release from Or42a terminals in flies exposed to mineral oil or 15% EB from 0-2 DPE, which would not be the case if there was Draper-independent fragmentation along the axons or terminal arbors upon EB exposure. We have updated our discussion of fragmentation so that our statements are based on this new evidence, and not confocal microscopy. 

      (6) There is an interesting Discussion opportunity missed here. Some experiments would, ostensibly, require pupae to detect odorants within the casing via structures consistently in place for olfaction during pupation. It would be useful for the authors to discuss a little more deeply when this critical period may arise and why the experiment where pupae are exposed to EB two days before eclosion and there is no response, occurs as it does. I agree that it's clearly a time when they are not sensitive to the odorant, but that could just be because there's no ability to detect odorants at that time. Is it a question of non-sensitivity to EB or just non-sensitivity to everything?

      We share the reviewer’s interest in the plasticity of the olfactory circuit during pupariation, although, as they correctly point out, it is difficult to conceive of an odorant-exposure experiment that could disentangle the barrier effects of puparium from the sensitivity of the circuit itself, and our pre-eclosion data in Figure 3A, D, G does not distinguish between the two. While an investigation into mechanism by which the critical period for ethyl butyrate exposure opens and closes is outside the scope of the present study, we would consider the physical barrier of the puparium to be a satisfactory explanation for why eclosion marks the functional opening of experiencedependent plasticity. As the reviewer suggests, we have added this important nuance to our discussion of the opening of the critical period in the corresponding paragraph of the Results, as well as to the Discussion section “Glomeruli exhibit dichotomous responses to critical period odor exposure.” 

      Minor Elements:

      (1) Page 6 bottom: "Or4a-mCD8::GFP" should be "Or42a-mCD8::GFP"

      (2) Page 15, end of last full paragraph. Remove the "e"

      Thank you for pointing out these typos. They have been corrected. 

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Sensory experiences during developmental critical periods have long-lasting impacts on neural circuit function and behavior. However, the underlying molecular and cellular mechanisms that drive these enduring changes are not fully understood. In Drosophila, the antennal lobe is composed of synapses between olfactory sensory neurons (OSNs) and projection neurons (PNs), arranged into distinct glomeruli. Many of these glomeruli show structural plasticity in response to early-life odor exposure, reflecting the sensitivity of the olfactory circuitry to early sensory experiences.

      In their study, the authors explored the role of glia in the development of the antennal lobe in young adult flies, proposing that glial cells might also play a role in experiencedependent plasticity. They identified a critical period during which both structural and functional plasticity of OSN-PN synapses occur within the ethyl butyrate (EB)responsive VM7 glomerulus. When flies were exposed to EB within the first two days post-eclosion, significant reductions in glomerular volume, presynaptic terminal numbers, and postsynaptic activity were observed. The study further highlights the importance of the highly conserved engulfment receptor Draper in facilitating this critical period plasticity. The authors demonstrated that, in response to EB exposure during this developmental window, ensheathing glia increase Draper expression, infiltrate the VM7 glomerulus, and actively phagocytose OSN presynaptic terminals. This synapse pruning has lasting effects on circuit function, leading to persistent decreases in both OSN-PN synapse numbers and spontaneous PN activity as analyzed by perforated patch-clamp electrophysiology to record spontaneous activity from PNs postsynaptic to Or42a OSNs.

      In my view, this is an intriguing and potentially valuable set of data. However, since I am not an expert in critical periods or habituation, I do not feel entirely qualified to assess the full significance or the novelty of their findings, particularly in relation to existing research.

      We thank the reviewer for their insightful critique of our work. In response to their comments, we added additional physiological analysis and tempered our language around possible explanations for the apparent disconnect between the physiological and morphological critical period odor exposure. These changes are explained in more detail in the response to the public review by Reviewer 1 and also in our responses outlined below. 

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I though do have specific comments and questions concerning the presynaptic phenotype they deduce from confocal BRP stainings and electrophysiology.

      Concerning the number of active zones: this can hardly be deduced from standardresolution confocal images and, maybe more importantly, lacking postsynaptic markers. This particularly also in the light of them speculating about "silent synapses". There are now tools existing concerning labeled, cell type specific expression of acetylcholine-receptor expression and cholinergic postsynaptic density markers (importantly Drep2). Such markers should be entailed in their analysis. They should refer to previous concerning "brp-short" concerning its original invention and prior usage.

      We thank the reviewer for their thoughtful approach to our methodology and claims. While the use of confocal microscopy of Bruchpilot puncta to estimate numbers of presynapses is standard practice (see Furusawa et al., 2023; Aimino et al., 2022; Urwyler et al., 2019; Ackerman et al., 2021), the reviewer is correct that a punctum does not an active zone make. Bruchpilot staining and quantification is a well-validated tool for approximating the number of presynaptic active zones, not a substitute for super-resolution microscopy. We made changes to our language about active zones to make this distinction clearer. We have also removed the sentence where we discuss the possibility of “silent synapses,” which both reviewers felt was too speculative for our existing data. Finally, we are highly interested in characterizing the response of PNs and higher-order processing centers to critical-period odorant exposure as a future direction for our research. However, given the complexity of the subject, we chose to limit the scope of this study to the interactions between OSNs and glia. 

      Regarding their electrophysiological analysis and the plausibility of their findings: I am uncertain whether the moderate reduction in BRP puncta at the relevant OSN::PN synapse can fully account for the significantly reduced spontaneous PN activity they report. This seems particularly doubtful in the absence of any direct evidence for postsynaptically silent synapses. Perhaps this is my own naivety, but I wonder why they did not use antennal nerve stimulation in their experiments?

      We refer to previous studies of the AL indicating that moderate changes in glomerular volume and presynaptic content can translate to far more striking alterations in electrophysiology and behavior (Devaud et al., 2003; Devaud et al., 2001; Acebes et al., 2012; and Chodankar et al., 2020, Mosca et al., 2017). This literature has demonstrated that chronic odorant exposure can result in remodeling of inhibitory local interneurons to suppress over-active inputs from OSNs. While we do not address the complex subject of interneuron remodeling in the present study, we find it highly likely that there would be significant changes in interneuron innervation of PNs, independent of glial phagocytosis of OSN excitatory inputs, resulting in additional inhibition. Moving forward, we are very interested in expanding these studies to include odor-evoked changes in PN activity.  

      Additional minor point: The phrase "Soon after its molecular biology was described (et al., 1999), the Drosophila melanogaster" seems somewhat misleading. Isn't the field still actively describing the molecular biology of the fly olfactory system?

      We completely agree and have removed this sentence entirely.  

      Reviewing Editor's Note: to enhance the evidence from mostly compelling in most facets to solid would be to add physiology to the Draper analysis.

      These experiments have been completed and are presented in Figure 4F-J. 

      References

      Acebes A, Devaud J-M, Arnés M, Ferrús A. 2012. Central Adaptation to Odorants Depends on PI3K Levels in Local Interneurons of the Antennal Lobe. J Neurosci 32:417–422. doi:10.1523/jneurosci.2921-11.2012

      Ackerman SD, Perez-Catalan NA, Freeman MR, Doe CQ. 2021. Astrocytes close a motor circuit critical period. Nature592:414–420. doi:10.1038/s41586-021-03441-2

      Aimino MA, DePew AT, Restrepo L, Mosca TJ. 2022. Synaptic Development in Diverse Olfactory Neuron Classes Uses Distinct Temporal and Activity-Related Programs. J Neurosci 43:28–55. doi:10.1523/jneurosci.0884-22.2022

      Chodankar A, Sadanandappa MK, VijayRaghavan K, Ramaswami M. 2020. Glomerulus-Selective Regulation of a Critical Period for Interneuron Plasticity in the Drosophila Antennal Lobe. J Neurosci 40:5549–5560. doi:10.1523/jneurosci.2192-19.2020

      Das S, Sadanandappa MK, Dervan A, Larkin A, Lee JA, Sudhakaran IP, Priya R, Heidari R, Holohan EE, Pimentel A, Gandhi A, Ito K, Sanyal S, Wang JW, Rodrigues V, Ramaswami M. 2011. Plasticity of local GABAergic interneurons drives olfactory habituation. Proc Natl Acad Sci 108:E646–E654. doi:10.1073/pnas.1106411108 Devaud J, Acebes A, Ramaswami M, Ferrús A. 2003. Structural and functional changes in the olfactory pathway of adult Drosophila take place at a critical age. J Neurobiol 56:13–23. doi:10.1002/neu.10215

      Devaud J-M, Acebes A, Ferrus A. 2001. Odor Exposure Causes Central Adaptation and ́Morphological Changes in Selected Olfactory Glomeruli in Drosophila. J Neurosci 21:6274–6282. doi:10.1523/jneurosci.21-16-06274.2001

      Furusawa K, Ishii K, Tsuji M, Tokumitsu N, Hasegawa E, Emoto K. 2023. Presynaptic Ube3a E3 ligase promotes synapse elimination through down-regulation of BMP signaling. Science 381:1197–1205. doi:10.1126/science.ade8978

      Mosca TJ, Luginbuhl DJ, Wang IE, Luo L. 2017. Presynaptic LRP4 promotes synapse number and function of excitatory CNS neurons. eLife 6:e27347. doi:10.7554/elife.27347

      Nelson N, Vita DJ, Broadie K. 2024. Experience-dependent glial pruning of synaptic glomeruli during the critical period. Sci Rep 14:9110. doi:10.1038/s41598-024-59942-3

      Urwyler O, Izadifar A, Vandenbogaerde S, Sachse S, Misbaer A, Schmucker D. 2019. Branch-restricted localization of phosphatase Prl-1 specifies axonal synaptogenesis domains. Science 364. doi:10.1126/science.aau9952

      Wilson RI, Laurent G. 2005. Role of GABAergic Inhibition in Shaping Odor-Evoked Spatiotemporal Patterns in the Drosophila Antennal Lobe. J Neurosci 25:9069–9079.

      doi:10.1523/jneurosci.2070-05.2005

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      This work has significant relevance to the field, both practically and naturally. Combatting or preventing toxic cyanobacterial blooms is an active area of environmental research that offers a practical backbone for this manuscript's ideas. Additionally, the formation and behavior of cellular aggregates, in general, is of widespread interest in many fields, including marine and freshwater ecology, healthcare and antibiotic resistance research, biophysics, and microbial evolution. In this field, there are still outstanding questions regarding how microbial aggregates form into communities, including if and how they come together from separate places. Therefore, I believe that researchers from many distinct fields would find interest in the topic of this paper, particularly Figure 5, in which a phase space that is meant to represent the different modes of aggregate formation and destruction is suggested, dependent on properties of the fluid flow and particle concentration.

      Altogether, the authors were mostly successful in their investigation, and I find most of their claims to be justified. In particular, the authors achieve strong results from their experiments regarding aggregate fragmentation. However, readers could benefit from some clarification in a couple of key areas. Additionally, I found that some of the authors' claims were based on weak or nonexistent data. Below, I outline the key claims of the paper and indicate the level to which they were supported by their data.

      - Their first major claim is that fluid flows alone must be quite strong in order to fragment the cyanobacterial aggregates they have studied. With their rheological chamber, they explicitly show that energy dissipation rates must exceed "natural" conditions by multiple orders of magnitude in order to fragment lab strain colonies, and even higher to disrupt natural strains sampled from a nearby freshwater lake. This claim is well-supported by their experiments and data.<br /> - The authors then claim that the fragmentation of aggregates due to fluid flows occurs through erosion of small pieces. Because their experimental setup does not allow them to explicitly observe this process (for example, by watching one aggregate break into pieces), they implement an idealized model to show that the nature of the changes to the size histogram agrees with an erosion process. However, in Figure 2C there is a noticeable gap between their experiment and the prediction of their model. Additionally, in a similar experiment shown in Figure S6, the experiment cannot distinguish between an idealized erosion model and an alternative, an idealized binary fission model where aggregates split into equal halves. For these reasons, this claim is weakened.<br /> - Their third major claim is that fluid flows only weakly cause cells to collide and adhere in a "coming together" process of aggregate formation. They test this claim in Figure 3, where they suspend single cells in their test chamber and stir them at moderate intensity, monitoring their size histogram. They show that the size histogram changes only slightly, indicating that aggregation is, by and large, not occurring at a high rate. Therefore, they lend support to the idea that cell aggregation likely does not initiate group formation in toxic cyanobacterial blooms. Additionally, they show that the median size of large colonies also does not change at moderate turbulent intensities. These results agree with previous studies (their own citation 25) indicating that aggregates in toxic blooms are clonal in nature. This is an important result and well-supported by their data, but only for this specific particle concentration and stirring intensity. Later, in Figure 5 they show a much broader range of particle concentrations and energy dissipation rates that they leave untested.<br /> - The fourth major result of the manuscript is displayed in Equation 8 and Figure 5, where the authors derive an expression for the ratio between the rate of increase of a colony due to aggregation vs. the rate due to cell division. They then plot this line on a phase map, altering two physical parameters (concentration and fluid turbulence) to show under what conditions aggregation vs. cell division are more important for group formation. Because these results are derived from relatively simple biophysical considerations, they have the potential to be quite powerful and useful and represent a significant conceptual advance. However, there is a region of this phase map that the authors have left untested experimentally. The lowest energy dissipation rate that the authors tested in their experiment seemed to be \dot{epsilon}~1e-2 [m^2/s^3], and the highest particle concentration they tested was 5e-4, which means that the authors never tested Zone II of their phase map. Since this seems to be an important zone for toxic blooms (i.e. the "scum formation" zone), it seems the authors have missed an important opportunity to investigate this regime of high particle concentrations and relatively weak turbulent mixing.

      Other items that could use more clarity:<br /> - The authors rely heavily on size distributions to make the claims of their paper. Yet, how they generated those size distributions is not clearly shown in the text. Of primary concern, the authors used a correction function (Equation S1) to estimate the counts of different size classes in their image analysis pipeline. Yet, it is unclear how well this correction function actually performs, what kinds of errors it might produce, and how well it mapped to the calibration dataset the authors used to find the fit parameters.<br /> - Second, in their models they use a fractal dimension to estimate the number of cells in the group from the group radius, but the agreement between this fractal dimension fit and the data is not shown, so it is not clear how good an approximation this fractal dimension provides. This is especially important for their later derivation of the "aggregation-to-cell division" ratio (Equation 8).

    2. Author response:

      We thank the reviewers and the editor for the detailed and constructive feedback provided. We look forward to submitting a revised version of the manuscript that addresses their comments. We acknowledge that further clarification is needed about the novelty brought by our experimental setup and model in comparison to previous studies using different methodologies. We also acknowledge that more details can be included about the calibration steps and sensitivity of the model parameters. Below we detail the planned changes for the revised version regarding the points raised by the reviewers.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      - The authors then claim that the fragmentation of aggregates due to fluid flows occurs through erosion of small pieces. Because their experimental setup does not allow them to explicitly observe this process (for example, by watching one aggregate break into pieces), they implement an idealized model to show that the nature of the changes to the size histogram agrees with an erosion process. However, in Figure 2C there is a noticeable gap between their experiment and the prediction of their model. Additionally, in a similar experiment shown in Figure S6, the experiment cannot distinguish between an idealized erosion model and an alternative, an idealized binary fission model where aggregates split into equal halves. For these reasons, this claim is weakened.

      The two idealized models of fragment distribution, namely erosion and binary fission, lead to distinguishable final size distributions. We believe that our experiments support the hypothesis of the erosion mechanism. Please note that Figure 2 is concerned with the fragmentation of large colonies, whereas Figure 3 and associated Figure S6 are concerned with very small colonies of a few cells formed by aggregation of single-cell suspension. Indeed, for very small colonies of a few cells, our experimental results cannot distinguish between a binary fission model and an erosion model (Figure S6).

      The situation is very different for large colonies. To address the reviewer’s concern, we will add a new figure in the Supplementary Information (SI), similar to our Figure 2C, where we will compare the erosion model with a binary fission model for large colonies fragmented under ε = 5.8 m<sup>2</sup>/s<sup>3</sup>. We already did this exercise. The results in this new supplementary figure will show that the idealized binary fission model (i.e., where every fracture event produces exactly two fragments) does not capture the experimental fragmentation behaviour of large colonies. In contrast, the idealized erosion model provides a much better prediction of the experimental results, within the experimental uncertainty and variability in colony strength, and has the notable advantage of a straightforward computational implementation.

      - The fourth major result of the manuscript is displayed in Equation 8 and Figure 5, where the authors derive an expression for the ratio between the rate of increase of a colony due to aggregation vs. the rate due to cell division. They then plot this line on a phase map, altering two physical parameters (concentration and fluid turbulence) to show under what conditions aggregation vs. cell division are more important for group formation. Because these results are derived from relatively simple biophysical considerations, they have the potential to be quite powerful and useful and represent a significant conceptual advance. However, there is a region of this phase map that the authors have left untested experimentally. The lowest energy dissipation rate that the authors tested in their experiment seemed to be \dot{epsilon}~1e-2 [m^2/s^3], and the highest particle concentration they tested was 5e-4, which means that the authors never tested Zone II of their phase map. Since this seems to be an important zone for toxic blooms (i.e. the "scum formation" zone), it seems the authors have missed an important opportunity to investigate this regime of high particle concentrations and relatively weak turbulent mixing.

      We agree with the reviewer that Zone (II) of Figure 5 is of great importance to dense bloom formation under wind mixing and that this parameter range was not covered by our experiments using a cone-and-plate shear flow. The measuring range of our device was motivated by engineering applications such artificial mixing of eutrophic lakes using bubble plumes, as well as preliminary experiments which demonstrated that high levels of dissipation rate were required to achieve fragmentation. The dissipation rates of our cone-and-plate experiments capture Zones (III) and (IV) and the higher end of Zone (I). However, the cone-and-plate experiments are less suitable for the lower dissipation rates of Zone (II), as indicated by the red bars in Figure 5, due to the accumulation of colonies in stagnation points.

      Instead, in our revision we will more extensively discuss recent results published in the literature for evidence of aggregation-dominance at Zone (II). The experimental studies of Wu et al. (2019) and Wu et al. (2024) (full citation below) investigated the formation of Microcystis surface scum layers at high colony concentrations (high biovolume fraction) in wind-mixed mesocosms. These studies identified aggregation of colonies at rates faster than cell division, while the stable colony size decreased with mixing rate.  The parameter range of these studies fall within Zone II, and their experimental results agree with our model predictions. We will include in the reviewed version these references and a detailed discussion elucidating the parameter range covered in our experiments and the findings of other studies.

      Wu, X., Noss, C., Liu, L., & Lorke, A. (2019). Effects of small-scale turbulence at the air-water interface on Microcystis surface scum formation. Water Research, 167, 115091.

      Wu, H., Wu, X., Rovelli, L., & Lorke, A. (2024). Dynamics of Microcystis surface scum formation under different wind conditions: the role of hydrodynamic processes at the air-water interface. Frontiers in Plant Science, 15, 1370874.

      Other items that could use more clarity:

      - The authors rely heavily on size distributions to make the claims of their paper. Yet, how they generated those size distributions is not clearly shown in the text. Of primary concern, the authors used a correction function (Equation S1) to estimate the counts of different size classes in their image analysis pipeline. Yet, it is unclear how well this correction function actually performs, what kinds of errors it might produce, and how well it mapped to the calibration dataset the authors used to find the fit parameters.

      We agree with the reviewer that more details of the calibration processes should be included. We will include in the revised version of the SI more details of the calibration steps and direct comparison of raw and corrected histograms of the size distribution and its associated uncertainty.

      - Second, in their models they use a fractal dimension to estimate the number of cells in the group from the group radius, but the agreement between this fractal dimension fit and the data is not shown, so it is not clear how good an approximation this fractal dimension provides. This is especially important for their later derivation of the "aggregation-to-cell division" ratio (Equation 8)

      We agree with the reviewer that more details on the estimation of fractal dimension are needed. The revised version of the SI will include the estimation procedure, the number of colonies analysed, and the associated uncertainty.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review)

      - Especially the introduction seems to imply that shear force is a very important parameter controlling colony formation. However, if one looks at the results this effect is overall rather modest, especially considering the shear forces that these bacterial colonies may experience in lakes. The main conclusion seems that not shear but bacterial adhesion is the most important factor in determining colony size. As the importance of adhesion had been described elsewhere, it is not clear what this study reveals about cyanobacterial colonies that was not known before.

      As we explain in the Introduction, it is a major open question whether cyanobacterial colonies are formed mainly by cell division (after which the dividing cells remain attached to each other by the EPS layer) or mainly by the aggregation of independent cells & colonies. See for example the highly cited review of Xiao & Reynolds 2018 (our ref 17), and references therein. This question has not been resolved and is investigated in our study. We would like to emphasize several key findings that our study reveals about the mechanical behaviour of cyanobacterial colonies under flow:

      (i) Quantification of mechanical strength in cyanobacterial colonies: Our results demonstrate the high mechanical strength of cyanobacterial colonies (much higher than previously thought in references 32 and 39 of the manuscript), as evidenced by the requirement of very high shear rates to achieve fragmentation. To this end, our study highlights their resilience against naturally occurring flows and bridges the gap between theoretical assumptions about colony strength and experimentally measured mechanical properties.

      (ii) Validation of a hypothesis regarding colony formation: Using a fluid-mechanical approach, we confirm the findings of recent genetic studies (references 25 and 64 of the manuscript) which indicated that colony formation of cyanobacteria under natural conditions occurs predominantly via cell division rather than via the aggregation of individual cells. Only in very dense blooms and surface scums, colony formation by the aggregation of smaller colonies likely plays a role.

      (iii) Practical guidelines for cyanobacterial bloom control: Our findings provide valuable insights into the design of artificial mixing systems that are used to suppress surface blooms of buoyant cyanobacteria in lakes. In these lake applications, in which we have been involved, the aim of the mixing is to disperse the colonies over the water column so that they cannot form a surface layer (i.e., the mixing intensity should overcome the flotation velocity of the colonies), which takes away the competitive advantage of buoyant cyanobacteria over nonbuoyant phytoplankton species. However, it has always been an open question whether the high shear of artificial mixing would cause colony fragmentation. An understanding of changes in colony size is relevant for the design of artificial mixing, because smaller colonies have a lower flotation velocity. Our results show that the dissipation rates that are generated by artificial mixing are sufficient to prevent aggregation of large colonies, but not high enough to induce fragmentation of division-formed colonies.

      In the revised version of the manuscript, we will improve the writing to better clarify these three novel insights obtained from our study.

      - The agreement between model and experiments is impressive, but the role of the fit parameters in achieving this agreement needs to be further clarified.

      The influence of the fit parameters (namely the stickiness α1 and the pairs of colony strength parameters S1,q1,S2,q2) is discussed in the sections “DYNAMICAL CHANGES IN COLONY SIZE MODELED BY A TWO-CATEGORY DISTRIBUTION” and “MATERIALS AND METHODS.” We kept the discussion concise to maintain readability. However, we agree with the reviewer that additional details about the importance of the fit parameters and the sensitivity of the results to these parameters could be beneficial. In the revised version of the SI, we will include a more detailed discussion of the fit parameters.

      - The article may not be very accessible for readers with a biology background. Overall, the presentation of the material can be improved by better describing their new method.

      We apologize for the limited readability of the description of the experimental setup and model used. In the revised version of the manuscript, we aim to expand the description of the new methods presented here for a broader audience of biology.

    1. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, Cozzolino et al. demonstrate that inhibition of the Mediator kinase CDK8 and its paralog CDK19 suppresses hyperactive interferon (IFN) signaling in Down syndrome (DS), which results from trisomy of chromosome 21 (T21). Numerous pathologies associated with DS are considered direct consequences of chronic IFN pathway activation, and thus hyperactive IFN signaling lies at the heart of pathophysiology. The collective interrogation of transcriptomics, metabolomics, and cytokine screens in sibling-matched cell lines (T21 vs D21) allows the authors to conclude that Mediator kinase inhibition could mitigate chronic, hyperactive IFN signaling in T21. To probe the functional outcomes of Mediator kinase inhibition, the authors performed cytokine screens, transcriptomic, and untargeted metabolomics. This collective approach revealed that Mediator kinases establish IFN-dependent cytokine responses at least in part through transcriptional regulation of cytokine genes and receptors. Mediator kinase inhibition suppresses cell responses during hyperactive IFN signaling through inhibition of pro-inflammatory transcription factor activity (anti-inflammatory effect) and alteration of core metabolic pathways, including upregulation of anti-inflammatory lipid mediators, which served as ligands for specific nuclear receptors and downstream phenotypic outcomes (e.g., oxygen consumption). These data provided a mechanistic link between Mediator kinase activity and nuclear receptor function. Finally, the authors also disclosed that Mediator kinase inhibition alters splicing outcomes.

      Overall, this study reveals a mechanism by which Mediator kinases regulate gene expression and establish that its inhibition antagonizes chronic IFN signaling through collective transcriptional, metabolic, and cytokine responses. The data have implications for DS and other chronic inflammatory conditions, as Mediator kinase inhibition could potentially mitigate pathological immune system hyperactivation.

      Comments on revisions:

      In the record of version, the authors have improved readability and also incorporated experiments that provide compelling support to the main discovery of the story. Below I summarize the previous strengths and how they improved noted weaknesses.

      (1) One major strength of this study is the mechanistic evidence linking Mediator kinases to hyperactive IFN signaling through transcriptional changes impacting cell signaling and metabolism.<br /> (2) Another major strength of this study is the use of sibling matched cell lines (T21 vs D21) from various donors (not just one sibling pair), and further cross-referencing with data from large cohorts, suggesting that part of the data and conclusions are generalizable.<br /> (3) Another major strength of this study is the combined experimental approach including transcriptomics, untargeted metabolomics and cytokine screens to define the mechanisms underlying suppression of hyperactive interferon signaling in DS upon Mediator kinase inhibition.<br /> (4) Another major strength of this study is the significance of the work to DS and its potential impact to other chronic inflammatory conditions.<br /> (5) The previously noted weakness regarding the roles of nuclear receptors to activation of an anti-inflammatory program upon Mediator kinase inhibition was not directly experimentally addressed because existing data from other studies (referenced in this version) have linked specific nuclear receptors to lipid biosynthesis and anti-inflammatory cascades. This is considered acceptable.<br /> (6) The presentation of the splicing data analysis is not better integrated in the overall story.<br /> (7) The authors improved the readability of the manuscript by providing specific details throughout.<br /> (8) Figures were improved and simplified when possible to facilitate readability.<br /> (9) The authors now clarified the PRO-Seq (TFEA analysis) explaining that their data is consistent with the general observation that stimulus-responsive genes is controlled by enhancer-bound TFs.

    1. Author response:

      We thank all the reviewers for their insightful comments on this work.

      Response to Reviewer #1:

      We greatly appreciate your comments on the general reliability and significance of our work. We fully agree that it would have been ideal to have additional evidence related to the role of PEBP1 in HRI activation. Unfortunately, we have not been able to find phospho-HRI antibodies that work reliably. The literature seems to agree with this as a band shift using total-HRI antibodies is usually used to study HRI activation. However, with the cell lines showing the most robust effect with PEBP1 knockout or knockdown, we are yet to convince ourselves with the band shifts we see. This could be addressed by optimizing phos-tag gels although these gels can be a bit tricky with complex samples such as cell lysates which contain many phosphoproteins.

      To address the interaction between PEBP1 and eIF2alpha more rigorously we were inspired by the insights you and reviewer #2 provided. While we are unable to do further experiments, we now think it would indeed be possible to do this with either using the purified proteins and/or CETSA WB. These experiments could also provide further evidence for the role of PEBP1 phosphorylation. Although phosphorylation of PEBP1 at S153 has been implicated as being important for other functions of PEBP1, we are not sure about its role here. It may indeed have little relevance for ISR signalling.

      For the in vitro thermal shift assay, we have performed two independent experiments. While it appears that there is a slight destabilization of PEBP1 by oligomycin, the ultimate conclusion of this experiment remains incomplete as there could be alternative explanations despite the apparent simplicity of the assay due the fluorescence background by oligomycin only. We now provide a lysate based CETSA analysis which does not display the same PEBP1 stabilization as the intact cell experiment. As for the signal saturation in ATF4-luciferase reporter assay, this is a valid point.

      Response to Reviewer #2:

      We strongly agree that CETSA has a lot of potential to inform us about cellular state changes and this was indeed the starting point for this project. We apologize for being (too) brief with the explanations of the TPP/MS-CETSA approach and we have now added a bit more detail. With regard to the cut-offs used for the mass spectrometry analysis, you are absolutely right that we did not establish a stringent cut-off that would show the specificity of each drug treatment. Our take on the data was that using the p values (and ignoring the fold-changes) of individual protein changes as in Fig 1D, we can see that mitochondrial perturbations display a coordinated response. We now realize that the downside of this representation is that it obscures the largest and specific drug effects. As mentioned in the response to Reviewer #1, we now also think that it would be possible to obtain more evidence for the potential interaction between PEBP1 and eIF2alpha using CETSA-based assays.

      Response to Reviewer #3:

      Thank you for your assessment, we agree that this manuscript would have been made much stronger by having clearer mechanistic insights. As mentioned in the responses to other reviewers above, we aim to address this limitation in part by looking at the putative interaction between PEBP1 and eIF2alpha with orthogonal approaches. However, we do realize that analysis of protein-protein interactions can be notoriously challenging due to false negative and false positive findings. As with any scientific endeavor, we will keep in mind alternative explanations to the observations, which could eventually provide that cohesive model explaining how precisely PEBP1, directly or indirectly, influences ISR signalling.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      The data overall are very solid, and I would only recommend the following minor changes: 

      (1) Line 187 and line 268: there is perhaps a trend towards slightly increased ATF4-luc reporter with PEBP1-S153D, but it is not statistically significant, so I would tone down the wording here. 

      We now modified this part to "This data is consistent with the modest increase…" .

      (2) The recently discovered SIFI complex (Haakonsen 2024, https://doi.org/10.1038/s41586023-06985-7) regulates both HRI and DELE1 through bifunctional localization/degron motifs. It seems like PEBP1 also contains such a motif, which suggests a potential mechanism for enrichment near mitochondria, perhaps even in response to stress. Maybe the authors could further speculate on this in the discussion. 

      While working on the manuscript, we considered the possibility that PEBP1 function could be related to SIFI complex and concluded that here is a critical difference: while  SIFI specifically acts to turn off stress response signalling, loss of PEBP1 prevents eIF2alpha phosphorylation. We did not however consider that PEBP1 could have a localization/degron motif. Motif analysis by deepmito (busca.biocomp.unibo.it) and similar tools did not identify any conventional mitochondrial targeting signal although we acknowledge that PEBP1 has a terminal alpha-helix which was identified for SIFI complex recognition. We are not sure why you think PEBP1 contains such a motif and therefore are hesitant to speculate on this further in the manuscript.

      (3) Line 358: references 50 and 45 are identical. 

      Thank you for spotting this. Corrected now. 

      (4) Figure S1D: it looks like Oligomycin has a significant background fluorescence, which makes interpretation of these graphs difficult - do you have measurements of the compound alone that can be used to subtract this background from the data? Based on the Tm I would say it does stabilize recombinant PEBP1, and there is no quantification of the variance across the 3 replicates to say there is no difference. 

      You are right, this assay is problematic due to the background fluorescence. The measurements with oligomycin only and subtracting this background results in slightly negative values and nonsensical thermal shift curves. We now additionally show quantification from two different experiments (unfortunately we ran out of reagents for further experiments), and this quantification shows that if anything, oligomycin causes mild destabilization of recombinant PEBP1. We also used lysate CETSA assay which does not show thermal stabilization of PEBP1 by oligomycin, ruling out a direct effect. We attempted to use ferrostatin1 as a positive control as it may bind PEBP1-ALOX protein complex, and it appeared to show marginal stabilization of PEBP1. 

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      I have a few comments for the authors to address: 

      (1) The MS-CETSA experiment is quite briefly described and this could be expanded somewhat. Not clear if multiple biological replicates are used. Is there any cutoff in data analysis based on fold change size (which correlated to the significance of cellular effects), etc? As expected from only one early timepoint (see eg PMID: 38328090), there appear to be a limited number of significant shifts over the background (as judged from Figure S1A). In the Excel result file, however (if I read it right) there are large numbers of proteins that are assigned as stabilized or destabilized. This might be to mark the direction of potential shifts, but considering that most of these are likely not hits, this labeling could give a false impression. Could be good to revisit this and have a column for what could be considered significant hits, where a fold change cutoff could help in selecting the most biologically relevant hits. This would allow Figure 1D to be made crisper when it likely dramatically overestimates the overlap between significant CETSA shifts for these drugs.  

      Fair point, while we focused more on PEBP1, it is important to have sufficient description of the methods. We used duplicate samples for the MS, which is probably the most important point which was absent from the original submission as is now added to the methods. We also added slightly more description on the data analysis. While the AID method does not explicitly use log2 fold changes, it does consider the relative abundance of proteins under different temperature fractions. Since the Tm (melting temperature) for each protein can be at any temperature, we felt that if would be complicated to compare fractions where the protein stability is changed the most and even more so if we consider both significance and log2FC. Therefore, we used this multivariate approach which indicates the proteins with most likely changes across the range of temperatures. To acknowledge that most of the statistically significant changes are not the much over the background as you correctly pointed out, we now add to the main text that “However, most of these changes are relatively small. To focus our analysis on the most significant and biologically relevant changes…” We also agree that it may be confusing that the AID output reports de/stabilization direction for all proteins. In general, we are not big fans of cutoffs as these are always arbitrary, but with multivariate p value of 0.1 it becomes clear that there are only a relatively small number of hits with larger changes. We have now added to the guide in the data sheet that "Primarily, use the adjusted p value of the log10 Multivariate normal pvalue for selecting the overall statistically significant hits (p<0.05 equals  -1.30 or smaller; p<0.01 equals  -2 or smaller)". We have also added to the guide part of the table that “Note that this prediction does not consider whether the change is significant or not, it only shows the direction of change”

      (2) On page 4 the authors state "We reasoned that thermal stability of proteins might be particularly interesting in the context of mitochondrial metabolism as temperature-sensitive fluorescent probes suggest that mitochondrial temperature in metabolically active cells is close to 50{degree sign}C". I don't see the relevance of this statement as an argument for using TPP/CETSA. When this is also not further addressed in the work, it could be deleted.

      Deleted. We agree, while this is an interesting point, it is not that relevant in this paper. 

      (3) To exclude direct drug binding to PEBP1, a thermofluor experiment is performed (Fig S1D). However, the experiment gives a high background at the lower temperatures and it could be argued that this is due to the flouroprobe binding to a hydrophobic pocket of the protein, and that oligomycin at higher concentrations competes with this binding, attenuating fluorescence. These are complex experiments and there could be other explanations, but the authors should address this. An alternative means to provide support for non-binding would be a lysate CETSA experiment, with very short (1-3 minutes) drug exposure before heating. This would typically give a shift when the protein is indicated to be CETSA responsive as in this case. 

      Agree. However, we don't have good means to perform the thermofluor experiments to rule out alternative explanations. What we can say is (as discussed above for reviewer #1, point 4) that quantification from two different experiments shows that oligomycin is does not thermally stabilizing recombinant PEBP1. To complement this conclusion, we used lysate CETSA assay which does not show thermal stabilization of PEBP1 by oligomycin. In this assay we attempted to use ferrostatin1 as a positive control as it may bind PEBP1-ALOX protein complex, and it appeared to show marginal stabilization of PEBP1. But since we lack a robust positive control for these assays, some doubt will inevitably remain.

      (4) The authors appear to have missed that there is already a MS-CETSA study in the literature on oligomycin, from Sun et al (PMID: 30925293). Although this data is from a different cell line and at a slightly longer drug treatment and is primarily used to access intracellular effects of decreased ATP levels induced by oligomycin, the authors should refer to this data and maybe address similarities if any.  

      Apologies for the oversight, the oligomycin data from this paper eluded us at it was mainly presented in the supplementary data. We compared the two datasets and find found some overlap despite the differences in the experimental details. Both datasets share translational components (e.g. EIF6 and ribosomal proteins), but most notably our other top hit BANF1 which we mentioned in the main text was also identified by Sun et al. We have updated the manuscript text as "Other proteins affected by oligomycin included BANF1, which binds DNA in an ATP dependent manner [16], and has also identified as an oligomycin stabilized protein in a previous MS-CETA experiment [23]", citing the Sun et al paper.   

      (5) The confirmation of protein-protein interaction is notoriously prone to false positives. The authors need to use overexpression and a sensitive reporter to get positive data but collect additional data using mutants which provide further support. Typically, this would be enough to confirm an interaction in the literature, although some doubt easily lingers. When the authors already have a stringent in-cell interaction assay for PEBP1 in the CETSA thermal shift, it would be very elegant to also apply the CETSA WB assay to the overexpressed constructs and demonstrate differences in the response of oligomycin, including the mutants. I am not sure this is feasible but it should be straightforward to test. 

      This is a very good suggestion. Unfortunately, due to the time constraints of the graduate students (who must write up their thesis very soon), we are not able to perform and repeat such experiments to the level of confidence that we would like.

      (6) At places the story could be hard to follow, partly due to the frequent introduction of new compounds, with not always well-stated rationale. It could be useful to have a table also in the main manuscript with all the compounds used, with the rationale for their use stated. Although some of the cellular pathways addressed are shown in miniatures in figures, it could be useful to have an introduction figure for the known ISR pathways, at least in the supplement. There are also a number of typos to correct. 

      We agree that there are many compounds used. We have attempted to clarify their use by adding this information into the table of used compounds in the methods and adding an overall schematic to Fig S1G and a note on line 132 "(see Figure 1-figure supplement 1G for summary of drugs used to target PEBP1 and ISR in this manuscript). We have also attempted to remove typos as far as possible.

      (7) EIF2a phosphorylation in S1E does not appear to be more significant for Sodium Arsenite argued to be a positive control, than CCCP, which is argued to be negative. Maybe enough with one positive control in this figure? 

      This experiment was used as a justification for our 30 min time point for the proteomics. By showing the 30 min and 4 h time points as Fig 1G and Figure 1-figure supplement 1F, our point was to demonstrate that the kinetics of phosphorylation and dephosphorylation are relevant. As you correctly pointed out, the stress response induced by sodium arsenite, but also tunicamycin is already attenuated at the 4h time point. We prefer to keep all samples to facilitate comparisons.

      (8) Page 7 reference to Figure S2H, which doesn't exist. Should be S3H.  

      Apologies for the mistake, now corrected to Figure 2-figure supplement 1B.

      (9) Finally, although the TPP labeling of the method is used widely in the literature this is CETSA with MS detection and MS-CETSA is a better term. This is about thermal shifts of individual proteins which is a very well-established biophysical concept. In contrast, the term Thermal Proteome Profiling does not relate to any biophysical concept, or real cell biology concept, as far as I can see, and is a partly misguided term. 

      We changed the term TPP into MS-CETSA, but also include the term TPP in the introduction to facilitate finding this paper by people using the TPP term.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      Major Issues 

      (1) The one major issue of this work is the lack of a mechanism showing precisely how PEBP1 amplifies the mitochondrial integrated stress response. The work, as it is described, presents data suggesting PEBP1's role in the ISR but fails to present a more conclusive mechanism. The idea of mitochondrial stress causing PEBP1 to bind to eIF2a, amplifying ISR is somewhat vague. Thus, the lack of a more defined model considerably weakens the argument, as the data is largely corollary, showing KO and modulation of PEBP1 definitely has a unique effect on the ISR, however, it is not conclusive proof of what the authors claim. While KO of PEBP1 diminishes the phosphorylation of eIF2a, taken together with the binding to eIF2a, different pathways could be simultaneously activated, and it seems premature to surmise that PEBP1 is specific to mitochondrial stress. Could PEBP1 be reacting to decreased ATP? Release of a protein from the mitochondria in response to stress? Is PEBP1's primary role as a modulator of the ISR, or does it have a role in non-stress-related translation? A cohesive model would tie together these separate indirect findings and constitute a considerable discovery for the ISR field, and the mitochondrial stress field.  

      Thank you for your assessment, we agree that this manuscript would have been much stronger by having clearer mechanistic insights. As with any scientific endeavor, we will keep in mind alternative explanations to the observations, which could eventually provide that cohesive model explaining how precisely PEBP1, directly or indirectly, influences ISR signalling.

      (2) The data relies on the initial identification of PEBP1 thermal stabilization concomitant with mitochondrial ISR induction post-treatment of several small molecules. However, the experiment was performed using a single timepoint of 30 minutes. There was no specific rationale for the choice of this time point for the thermal proteome profiling. 

      The reasoning for this was explicitly stated:  "We reasoned that treating intact cells with the drugs for only 30 min would allow us to observe rapid and direct effects related to metabolic flux and/or signaling related to mitochondrial dysfunction in the absence of major changes in protein expression levels.”

      Minor Issues 

      (1) In Lines 163-166 the authors state "The cells from Pebp1 KO animals displayed reduced expression of common ISR genes (Figure 2F), despite upregulation of unfolded protein response genes Ern1 (Ire1α) and Atf6 genes. This gene expression data therefore suggests that Pebp1 knockout in vivo suppresses induction of the ISR". This statement should be reassessed. While an arm of the UPR does stimulate ISR, this arm is controlled by PERK, and canonically IRE1 and ATF6 do not typically activate the ISR, thus their upregulation is likely unrelated to ISR activation and does not contribute the evidence necessary for this statement. 

      Apologies for the confusion, we aimed to highlight that as there is an increase in the two UPR arms, it is more likely that ISR instead of UPR is reduced. We have now changed the statement to the following:

      "The cells from Pebp1 PEBP1 KO animals displayed reduced expression of common ISR genes (Figure 2F), while there was mild upregulation of the unfolded protein response genes Ern1 (Ire1α) and Atf6 genes. This gene expression data therefore suggests that the reduced expression of common ISR genes is less likely to be mediated by changes in PERK, the third UPR arm, and more likely due to suppression of ISR by Pebp1 knockout in vivo."

      (2) In Lines 169 and 170 the authors state "Western blotting indicated reduced phosphorylation of eIF2α in RPE1 cells lacking PEBP1, suggesting that PEBP1 is involved in regulating ISR signaling between mitochondria and eIF2α". This conclusion is not supported by evidence. A number of pathways could be activated in these knockout cells, and simply observing an increase in p-eIF2α after knocking out PEBP1 does not constitute an interaction, as correlation doesn't mean causation. This KO could indirectly affect the ISR, with PEBP1 having no role in the ISR. While taken together there is enough circumstantial evidence in the manuscript to suggest a role for PEBP1 in the ISR, statements such as these have to be revised so as not to overreach the conclusions that can be achieved from the data, especially with no discernible mechanism.  

      We have now revised this statement by removing the conclusion and stating only the observation:  "Western blotting indicated reduced phosphorylation of eIF2α in RPE1 cells lacking PEBP1 (Fig. 3A)."

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      comprehensiveness and rigor of the study are notable. Rarely have I reviewed a manuscript reporting the results of so many orthogonal experiments, all of which support the authors' hypotheses, and of so many excellent controls.” Reviewer 2 commented: “They have elegantly demonstrated how some mutants alter each step of processing. Together with FLIM experiments, this study provides additional evidence to support their 'stalled complex hypotheses'….This is a beautiful biochemical work. The approach is comprehensive.”

      Below we respond to the relatively minor concerns of Reviewer 2, which may be included with the first version of the Reviewed Preprint.

      Reviewer 2:

      (1) It appears that the purified γ-secretase complex generates the same amount of Aβ40 and Aβ42, which is quite different in cellular and biochemical studies. Is there any explanation for this?  

      Roughly equal production of Aβ40 and Aβ42 is a phenomenon seen with purified enzyme assays, and the reason for this has not been identified. However, we suggest that what is meaningful in our studies is the relative difference between the effects of FAD-mutant vs. WT PSEN1 on each proteolytic processing step. All FAD mutations are deficient in multiple cleavage steps in γsecretase processing of APP substrate, and these deficiencies correlate with stabilization of E-S complexes.

      (2) It has been reported the Aβ production lines from Aβ49 and Aβ48 can be crossed with various combinations (PMID: 23291095 and PMID: 38843321). How does the production line crossing impact the interpretation of this work?  

      In the cited reports, such crossover was observed when using synthetic Aβ intermediates as substrate. In PMID 2391095 (Okochi M et al, Cell Rep, 2013), Aβ43 is primarily converted to Aβ40, but also to some extent to Aβ38. In PMID: 38843321 (Guo X et al, Science, 2024), Aβ48 is ultimately converted to Aβ42, but also to a minor degree to Aβ40. We have likewise reported such product line “crossover” with synthetic Aβ intermediates (PMID: 25239621; Fernandez MA et al, JBC, 2014). However, when using APP C99-based substrate, we did not detect any noncanonical tri- and tetrapeptide co-products of Aβ trimming events in the LC-MS/MS analyses (PMID: 33450230; Devkota S et al, JBC, 2021). In the original report on identification of the small peptide coproducts for C99 processing by γ-secretase using LC-MS/MS (PMID: 19828817; Takami M et al, J Neurosci, 2009), only very low levels of noncanonical peptides were observed. In the present study, we did not search for such noncanonical trimming coproducts, so we cannot rule out some degree of product line crossover.

      (3) In Figure 5, did the authors look at the protein levels of PS1 mutations and C99-720, as well as secreted Aβ species? Do the different amounts of PS1 full-length and PS1-NTF/CTF influence FILM results?  

      FLIM results depend on the degree that C99 and long Aβ intermediates are bound to γ-secretase compared to unbound C99 and Aβ. The 6E10-Alexa 488 lifetime is significantly decreased by FAD mutations compared to WT PSEN1 (Fig. 5). However, the observed decrease in lifetime with the PSEN1 FAD mutants might also be due to lower levels of C99-720 expression or higher levels of PSEN1 CTF (i.e., mature γ-secretase complexes). We checked the C99-720 fluorescence intensities in the FLIM experiments and found that C99-720 intensities are not significantly different between cells transfected with WT and those with FAD PSEN1. Furthermore, Western blot analysis shows that levels of C99-720 are not significantly low and those of PSEN1 CTF are not high in FAD PSEN1 compared to WT PSEN1 expressing cells. Although PSEN1 CTF levels trend low for PSEN1 F386S, this mutant resulted in decreased FLIM only in Aβ-rich regions. Thus, the reduced FLIM apparently reflects effects of FAD mutation on E-S complex stability. Levels of full-length PSEN1 were also determined and found not to correlated with FLIM effects, although full-length PSEN1 represents protein not incorporated into full active γ-secretase complexes and therefore does not interact with C99-720.

      (4) It is interesting that both Aβ40 and Aβ42 Elisa kits detect Aβ43. Have the authors tested other kits in the market? It might change the interpretation of some published work.  

      We have not tested other ELISA kits. Considering our findings, it would be a good idea for other investigators to test whatever ELISAs they use for specificity vis-à-vis Aβ43.

    1. Note: This preprint has been reviewed by subject experts for Review Commons. Content has not been altered except for formatting.

      Learn more at Review Commons


      Referee #1

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      Plasmacytoid dendritic cells (pDCs) are the major producers of type I interferon after viral infections and play key role in antiviral immune response. This article by Joshi et al. investigates the role of pDCs in regulating the Hepatitis E virus (HEV) infection. In Fig. 1, the authors investigated the immunocompetence of different cell lines and HepG2/C3A and PLC3 were chosen for further studies. By utilizing a combination of flow cytometry, RT-qPCR and other techniques, the authors showed in Fig. 2 that the cell-cell contacts between pDCs and HEV infected cells induce the pDCs to secrete interferon (IFN). This interaction is mediated by cell adhesion molecules and is dependent on TLR7 signaling. The authors then went on to show that the IFN produced by pDCs controlled the viral spread. Further, using several mutant forms of ORF2 protein and utilizing imaging, RT-qPCR and other techniques, in Fig. 3 and 4 the authors elucidated the importance of the glycosylation pattern, localization of different forms of HEV ORF2 protein, cell-cell contact in triggering the immune response. Overall, this study provided insights in the pDC mediated IFN response against HEV.

      Major comments:

      1. The authors report that in the PLC3 cells, STOP mutation significantly reduced IFN⍺ production (Fig. 3f), significantly reduced pDC contact with infected cells (Fig. 4c) and thus concluded that the ORF2g/c is involved in pDC-infected cell interaction and IFN⍺ production. However, in the HepG2/C3A cells, the STOP mutation does not decrease the IFN⍺ production (Fig. 3e). In the manuscript, one of the key conclusions is that the glycosylated form of ORF2 leads to better recognition of the infected cells by pDC. So, it is critical that the difference in the IFN⍺ production between these two cell lines with STOP mutation is addressed with further details.
      2. The authors show that the IFN⍺ response was reduced in 5R/5A mutant HepG2/C3A cells (Fig. 3e), whereas the IFN⍺ response was completely absent in 5R/5A mutant PLC3 cells (Fig. 3f). The authors suggested that the difference in IFN⍺ response may be due to lack of ORF2i in PLC3 and other cell specific regulation in HepG2/C3A. Further evidence for this differential regulation would strengthen the claim.
      3. In the PLC3-pDC co-culture experiment (Fig. 2b), there is already an induction of IFN-1 (Interferon Lambda 1) in the uninfected PLC3-pDC co-culture (right panel, Fig. 2b). An explanation for the IFN-1 (Interferon Lambda 1) expression in the uninfected state would be helpful.

      Additional comments:

      1. Authors checked the expression of two ISGs- MXA, ISG15 in Fig. 1a-c, 2a-b. Were the expressions of other ISGs, such as members of OAS family (OAS1, OAS2 etc.), IFITM family or any other ISGs checked? This may be helpful, since in the Fig. 2c there is IFN⍺ production in pDC-infected PLC3 co-culture, but the ISGs (MXA, ISG15) are not upregulated significantly in Fig. 2b.
      2. In the HepG2/C3A-pDC co-culture experiment (Fig. 2a), there is not much difference in IFN-1 (Interferon Lambda 1) level in the infected HepG2/C3A-pDC co-culture (right panel, Fig. 2a) in comparison to infected HepG2/C3A alone (left panel, Fig. 2b), and also this outcome is different from that in the PLC3 experiment (Fig. 2b). Further clarification would help to support the conclusion regarding the IFN-1 (Interferon Lambda 1) upregulation in HEV infected cells-pDC co-culture.
      3. The authors show that in the pDC-PLC3 co-culture system, IFN⍺ was induced at 18h (Fig. 2c-2e), but the viral replication was not decreased in PLC3 cells (Fig. 2g). But, the HepG2/C3A-pDC co-culture has reduced viral replication at 18h (Fig. 2f). An explanation for the difference in the observation in two different cell lines at the same timepoints would strengthen the antiviral role of pDCs on HEV infected cells.
      4. The authors quantified the fold change in HEV infected PLC3+ cells in Fig. 2h. Was it performed by flow cytometry? It would be helpful to mention it in the figure legend. Also, if the said quantitation was done by flow cytometry, performing similar assay with HEPG2/C3A cells at 48h would provide the readers a better idea about the antiviral response across the cell lines at<br /> comparable timepoints.

      Minor comments:

      1. Was it expected to observe the increased induction of IL6 (Fig. 1b) in HepG2/C3A cells (but not in other cell lines) after IFN- (Interferon Lambda) treatment?
      2. In Fig. 3e, for the WT cells, 4 datapoints are visible while in the legend it is mentioned n=5.
      3. Typo: IRS661 in line 263, 699, Figure 2e.
      4. Typo: 200l in line 579.
      5. Catalogue number for ELISA kit is missing (Line 584).
      6. It would be helpful if the color code for the imaging in Supplementary figure 2f is provided on the top of the images, as it is provided in other images.

      Significance

      This article by Joshi et al. provides insight about the role of pDCs in controlling the HEV infection. However, the importance of pDC-infected cell contact mediated IFN-I secretion in antiviral response has been previously shown by the authors' group (Assil et al., 2019, Cell Host & Microbe) and others as well (E.g., Yun et al., 2021, Sci. Immunol.). The involvement of integrin mediated cell adhesion and TLR signaling in mediating this response was also shown. Though this manuscript does not advance the field of pDC biology or virology significantly, it does provide better understanding of the pDC antiviral response in the landscape of HEV infection. Although, it is out of the scope of this manuscript, elucidation of the mechanistic regulation how ORF2g/c controls the pDC-infected cell contact would be of great interest and significance. Overall, this study could be of interest to a general audience, especially to the virologists and researchers working in pDC biology.

    1. careofthesoul_alchemy19h19 hours agoMore沒辦法看長文的你要小心了1.超過500字的文字看不下去。 2.超過4分鐘的影片覺得太長。 3.reel 一個看過一個以為比較不浪費時間。 4.很久沒有追劇,一部1小時沒有耐心。 5.看YT想要快轉1.25倍以上。 6.注意力越來越難以集中。 7.長時間停留在脆無法自拔。 8.情緒容易被社群控制跟影響關係。 9.書看三頁就累了。 10.買的網路課程停留在第一堂前30分鐘。 11.跟家人無法好好說話。 12.喜歡快速到貨的感覺。小心這種快速、多巴胺世界快把你綁架啦!碎片化 多巴胺世代 網路社群 成癮

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    1. Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Kanie et al have recently characterized DAP protein CEP89 as important for the recruitment of the ciliary vesicle. Here, they describe a novel interacting partner for CEP89 that can bind membranes and therefore mediates its role in ciliary vesicle recruitment. An initial LAP tag pull-down and mass spectrometry experiment finds NCS-1 and C3ORF14 as CEP89 interactors. This interaction is mapped in the context of the ciliary vesicle formation. From the data presented, it is clear that, upon knockout, the function of these proteins might be compensated by others, as the phenotype can eventually recover over time.

      In terms of the biological significance of this interaction, it would be good to examine (via co-immunoprecipitation) whether the CEP89/NCS-1/C3ORF14 interaction takes place upon serum starvation. Does the complex change?

      Also, for the subdistal appendage localization of NCS-1 and C3ORF14, would this also change upon serum starvation?

      For the ciliation results and the recruitment of IFT88 in CEP89 knockout cell lines, this contradicts previous work from Tanos et al (PMID: 23348840), as well as Hou et al (PMID: 36669498). A parallel comparison using siRNA, a transient knockout system, or a degron system would help understand this. A similar point goes for Figure 4, where the effect on ciliogenesis is minimal in knockout cells, but acute siRNA has been shown to have a stronger phenotype.

      An elegant phenotype rescue is shown in Figure 5. An interesting question would be, how does this mutant and/or the myristoylation affect the recruitment of C3ORF14?

      For the EF-hand mutants, it would be good to use control mutants, from known Ca2+ binding proteins as a control for the experiment shown.

    2. Author response:

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review): 

      Comment 1: In terms of the biological significance of this interaction, it would be good to examine (via co-immunoprecipitation) whether the CEP89/NCS-1/C3ORF14 interaction takes place upon serum starvation. Does the complex change? 

      NCS1 centriolar localization requires CEP89 as no NCS1 localization was observed in CEP89 knockout cells (Figure 2L; Figure 2-figure supplement 2B). Both CEP89 and NCS1 centriolar localization were observed (Figure 2C; Figure 1D of the PMID: 36711481) in cells grown in serum containing media, although their localization was further enhanced in serum starved cells. From these results, we predict that CEP89 and NCS1 can interact and colocalize in both serum-fed and serum-depleted condition. We think it may not be easy to assess the change in interaction with the co-immunoprecipitation assay, as interactions occur in a test tube, which may not reflect the binding condition inside the cells.

      Comment 2: Also, for the subdistal appendage localization of NCS-1 and C3ORF14, would this also change upon serum starvation? 

      We agree that it would be interesting to see whether the subdistal appendage localization changes upon serum starvation, as NCS1 may capture the ciliary vesicle at the subdistal appendages as we discussed. However, the loss of the subdistal appendage protein, CEP128, blocks subdistal appendage localization of CEP89 [PMID: 32242819] without affecting cilium formation [PMID: 27818179]. This suggests that the subdistal appendage localization of NCS1 or C3ORF14 is likely dispensable for cilium formation.

      Comment 3: For the ciliation results and the recruitment of IFT88 in CEP89 knockout cell lines, this contradicts previous work from Tanos et al (PMID: 23348840), as well as Hou et al (PMID: 36669498). A parallel comparison using siRNA, a transient knockout system, or a degron system would help understand this. A similar point goes for Figure 4, where the effect on ciliogenesis is minimal in knockout cells, but acute siRNA has been shown to have a stronger phenotype. 

      Hou et al. [PMID: 36669498] investigated the role of distal appendage proteins, CEP164, CEP89, and FBF1 in the ciliated chordotonal organ of Drosophila melanogaster by generating knockout Drosophila strains. The results were markedly different from what was observed in mammalian cells. Notably, CEP164 is not required for cilium formation, and CEP89 is required for FBF1 localization in the animal. CEP89 was required for cilium formation in the cells in the ciliated chordotonal organ, of which cilium formation is dependent on IFT machinery. They did not show if IFT centriolar recruitment is affected in the CEP89 mutant cells. These differences likely reflect the divergence of the organization of distal appendage during evolution.

      The ciliation phenotype of our CEP89 knockout cells are milder than what was shown in Tanos et al [PMID: 23348840], but largely consistent with the results from Bornens group, which used siRNA to deplete CEP89 [PMID: 23789104]. Besides, NCS1 knockout cells showed very similar phenotype to the CEP89 knockout cells, and relatively acute deletion of NCS1 (14 days after infection of the lenti-virus containing sgNCS1 without single-cell cloning) displayed an almost identical ciliation defect (Figure 4B-C). Thus, we believe CEP89 is only partially required for cilium formation in RPE-hTERT cells and that the differences are more technical than definitive.

      Comment 4: An elegant phenotype rescue is shown in Figure 5. An interesting question would be, how does this mutant and/or the myristoylation affect the recruitment of C3ORF14? 

      NCS1 is not required for the localization of C3ORF14 (Figure 2M; Figure 2- figure supplement 2C), so we can assume that the myristoylation defective mutant does not affect C3ORF14 recruitment.

      Comment 5: For the EF-hand mutants, it would be good to use control mutants, from known Ca2+ binding proteins as a control for the experiment shown. 

      In the Figure 5-figure supplement 1A-C, we generated a series of EF-hand mutant of NCS1 to see if the calcium binding affects the CEP89 interaction, NCS1 localization, and cilium formation. NCS1 is only protein among the calcium binding NCS family proteins that was found as a positive hit in the mass spec data of CEP89 tandem affinity purification. Therefore, we cannot use other NCS1 family proteins as a control for CEP89 binding, NCS1 localization, and cilium formation.

    1. Joint Public Review:

      This manuscript tests the notion that bulky membrane glycoproteins suppress viral infection through non-specific interactions. Using a suite of biochemical, biophysical, and computational methods in multiple contexts (ex vivo, in vitro, and in silico), the authors collect evidence supporting the notion that (1) a wide range of surface glycoproteins erect an energy barrier for the virus to form stable adhesive interface needed for fusion and uptake and (2) the total amount of glycan, independent of their molecular identity, additively enhanced the suppression.

      As a functional assay the authors focus on viral infection starting from the assumption that a physical boundary modulated by overexpressing a protein-of-interest could prevent viral entry and subsequent infection. Here they find that glycan content (measured using the PNA lectin) of the overexpressed protein and total molecular weight, that includes amino acid weight and the glycan weight, is negatively correlated with viral infection. They continue to demonstrate that it is in effect the total glycan content, using a variety of lectin labelling, that is responsible for reduced infection in cells. Because the authors do not find a loss in virus binding this allows them to hypothesize that the glycan content presents a barrier for the stable membrane-membrane contact between virus and cell. They subsequently set out to determine the effective radius of the proteins at the membrane and demonstrate that on a supported lipid bilayer the glycosylated proteins do not transition from the mushroom to the brush regime at the densities used. Finally, using Super Resolution microscopy they find that above an effective radius of 5 nm proteins are excluded from the virus-cell interface.

      The experimental design does not present major concerns and the results provide insight on a biophysical mechanism according to which, repulsion forces between branched glycan chains of highly glycosylated proteins exert a kinetic energy barrier that limits the formation of a membrane/viral interface required for infection.

      However several general and specific concerns remain that the author is recommended to address before their claims as above are compelling.

      GENERAL QUESTIONS:

      (1) For many enveloped viruses, the attachment factors - paradoxically - are also surface glycoproteins, often complexed with a distinct fusion protein. The authors note here that the glycoportiens do not inhibit the initial binding, but only limit the stability of the adhesive interface needed for subsequent membrane fusion and viral uptake. How these antagonistic tendencies might play out should be discussed.

      (2) Unlike polymers tethered to solid surface undergoing mushroom-to-brush transition in density-dependent manner, the glycoproteins at the cell surface are of course mobile (presumably in a density-dependent manner). They can thus redistribute in spatial patterns, which serve to minimize the free energy. I suggest the authors explicitly address how these considerations influence the in vitro reconstitution assays seeking to assess the glycosylation-dependent protein packing.

      (3) The discussion of the role of excluded volume in steric repulsion between glycoprotein needs clarification. As presented, it's unclear what the role of "excluded volume" effects is in driving steric repulsion? Do the authors imply depletion forces? Or the volume unavailable due to stochastic configurations of gaussian chains? How does the formalism apply to branched membrane glycoproteins is not immediately obvious.

      (4) The authors showed that glycoprotein expression inversely correlated with viral infection and link viral entry inhibition to steric hindrance caused by the glycoprotein. Alternative explanations would be that the glycoprotein expression (a) reroutes endocytosed viral particles or (b) lowers cellular endocytic rates and via either mechanism reduce viral infection. The authors should provide evidence that these alternatives are not occurring in their system. They could for example experimentally test whether non-specific endocytosis is still operational at similar levels, measured with fluid-phase markers such as 10kDa dextrans.

      (5) The authors approach their system with the goal of generalizing the cell membrane (the cumulative effect of all cell membrane molecules on viral entry), but what about the inverse? How does the nature of the molecule seeking entry affect the interface? For example, a lipid nanoparticle vs a virus with a short virus-cell distance vs a virus with a large virus-cell distance?

      SPECIFIC QUESTIONS:

      (1) The proposed mechanism indicates that glycosylation status does not produce an effect in the "trapping" of virus, but in later stages of the formation of the virus/membrane interface due to the high energetic costs of displacing highly glycosylated molecules at the vicinity of the virus/membrane interface. It is suggested to present a correlation between the levels of glycans in the Calu-3 cell monolayers and the number of viral particles bound to cell surface at different pulse times. Results may be quantified following the same method as shown in Figure 2 for the correlation between glycosylation levels and viral infection (in this case the resulting output could be number of viral particles bound as a function of glycan content).

      (2) The use of the purified glycosylated and non-glycosylated ectodomains of MUC1 and CD-43 to establish a relationship between glycosylation and protein density into lipid bilayers on silica beads is an elegant approach. An assessment of the impact of glycosylation in the structural conformation of both proteins, for instance determining the Flory radius of the glycosylated and non-glycosylated ectodomains by the FRET-FLIM approach used in Figure 4 would serve to further support the hypothesis of the article.

      (3) The MUC1 glycoprotein is reported to have a dramatic effect in reducing viral infection shown in Fig 1F. On the contrary, in a different experiment shown in Fig2D and Fig2H MUC1 has almost no effect in reducing viral infection. It is not clear how these two findings can be compatible.

      (4) Why is there a shift in the use of the glycan marker? How does this affect the conclusions? For the infection correlation relating protein expression with glycan content the PNA-lectin was used together with flow cytometry. For imaging the infection and correlating with glycan content the SSA-lectin is used.

      (5) The authors in several instances comment on the relevance and importance of the total glycan content. Nevertheless, these conclusions are often drawn when using only one glycan-binding lectin. In fact, the anti-correlation with viral infection is distinct for the various lectins (Fig 2D and Fig 2H). Would it make more sense to use a combination of lectins to get a full glycan spectrum?

      (6) Fig 3A shows virus binding to HEK cells upon MUC1 expression. Please provide the surface expression of the MUC1 so that the data can be compared to Fig 1F. Nevertheless, it is not clear why the authors used MUC expression as a parameter to assess virus binding. Alternatively, more conclusive data supporting the hypothesis would be the absence of a correlation between total glycan content and virus binding capacity.

      (7) While the use of the Flory model could provide a simplification for a (disordered) flexible structure such as MUC1, where the number of amino acids equals N in the Flory model, this generalisation will not hold for all the proteins. Because folding will dramatically change the effective polypeptide chain-length and reduce available positioning of the amino acids, something the authors clearly measured (Fig 4G), this generalisation is not correct. In fact, the generalisation does not seem to be required because the authors provide an estimation for the effective Flory radius using their FRET approach

    1. Résumé de la vidéo [00:00:15][^1^][1] - [00:37:03][^2^][2]:

      Cette vidéo de Cash Investigation explore les transformations des services publics en France, notamment l'impact des restrictions budgétaires et de la sous-traitance sur la qualité des services, en particulier dans le secteur de la santé.

      Moments forts: + [00:00:49][^3^][3] Introduction aux services publics * Présentation des changements récents * Impact des économies budgétaires * Recours à la sous-traitance + [00:03:05][^4^][4] État des services publics * Importance des services publics * Réduction des dépenses publiques * Externalisation dans la santé + [00:07:03][^5^][5] Sous-traitance dans les hôpitaux * Enquête sur le nettoyage hospitalier * Formation accélérée des employés * Pénurie de matériel de nettoyage + [00:16:03][^6^][6] Risques sanitaires * Infections nosocomiales * Importance du bionettoyage * Études et statistiques sur les infections + [00:24:03][^7^][7] Économies et conséquences * Programme Phare et économies * Impact sur la qualité du nettoyage * Comparaison avec d'autres pays européens

    1. The flagellants

      “鞭笞者”(The Flagellants)指的是中世纪晚期(主要是14世纪)出现的一种宗教运动,其信徒通过公开鞭打自己来表达忏悔和赎罪。这场运动在黑死病肆虐的时期尤为盛行,人们认为瘟疫是上帝对人类罪恶的惩罚,而鞭笞是平息上帝愤怒的一种方式。

      为了更全面地理解“鞭笞者”,我将从以下几个方面进行介绍:

      1. 起源和发展 (起源和发展):

      • 早期先例 (早期先例): 自我鞭笞作为一种宗教行为,并非中世纪首创。早在古代,一些宗教中就存在类似的习俗。例如,一些基督教苦修士会进行自我鞭笞,以效仿基督受难。
      • 13世纪的复兴 (13世纪的复兴): 13世纪,意大利北部出现了一场大规模的鞭笞运动,被称为“伟大的忏悔”(Great Alleluia)。这场运动蔓延到欧洲其他地区,并对后来的鞭笞者运动产生了影响。
      • 黑死病时期的爆发 (黑死病时期的爆发): 14世纪中叶,黑死病席卷欧洲,造成大量人口死亡。在巨大的恐惧和绝望中,鞭笞者运动再次兴起,并达到了顶峰。人们认为瘟疫是上帝对人类罪恶的惩罚,而公开鞭笞是平息上帝愤怒、祈求宽恕的一种方式。
      • 传播和组织 (传播和组织): 鞭笞者通常以团体形式行动,被称为“鞭笞队”(Flagellant bands)。他们会在城镇和乡村游行,进行公开的鞭笞仪式。这些鞭笞队通常由一位领袖带领,并有自己的规则和仪式。
      • 教廷的镇压 (教廷的镇压): 尽管最初一些教会人士对鞭笞运动表示同情,但随着运动的蔓延和一些极端行为的出现,教廷开始对其进行镇压。1349年,教皇克雷芒六世正式宣布鞭笞运动为异端,并下令禁止。

      2. 鞭笞仪式 (鞭笞仪式):

      • 游行 (游行): 鞭笞者通常会组成队伍,在城镇和乡村游行。他们身穿忏悔的长袍,头戴兜帽,手持鞭子。
      • 鞭笞 (鞭笞): 在特定的地点,鞭笞者会进行公开的鞭笞仪式。他们会脱去上衣,用皮鞭或带有金属尖端的鞭子鞭打自己的背部,以示忏悔和赎罪。
      • 赞美诗和祈祷 (赞美诗和祈祷): 在鞭笞过程中,鞭笞者会吟唱赞美诗、祈祷和忏悔。
      • 持续时间 (持续时间): 鞭笞仪式通常会持续一段时间,有时甚至会长达数小时。

      3. 鞭笞者的信仰和思想 (鞭笞者的信仰和思想):

      • 忏悔和赎罪 (忏悔和赎罪): 鞭笞者认为通过自我鞭笞可以忏悔自己的罪过,并为人类的罪恶赎罪,从而平息上帝的愤怒,阻止瘟疫的蔓延。
      • 末世论思想 (末世论思想): 一些鞭笞者持有末世论思想,认为世界即将毁灭,而鞭笞是为即将到来的审判做准备的一种方式。
      • 对教会的质疑 (对教会的质疑): 一些鞭笞者对教会的权威表示质疑,认为教会已经腐败,无法真正地引导人们走向救赎。

      4. 影响 (影响):

      • 对社会的影响 (对社会的影响): 鞭笞运动在一定程度上反映了当时社会民众的恐惧、绝望和对教会的不信任。它也加剧了社会的不稳定和动荡。
      • 对宗教的影响 (对宗教的影响): 鞭笞运动促使教会对一些宗教实践进行了反思和调整。
      • 对艺术和文学的影响 (对艺术和文学的影响): 鞭笞运动也成为了艺术和文学作品的题材,例如一些绘画作品和文学作品描绘了鞭笞者的形象和仪式。

      5. 后来的发展 (后来的发展):

      虽然中世纪的鞭笞运动在教廷的镇压下逐渐衰落,但在后来的历史中,也曾零星地出现过类似的自我鞭笞行为,尤其是在一些宗教节日或特殊时期。

      总结 (总结):

      “鞭笞者”是中世纪晚期出现的一种宗教运动,其信徒通过公开鞭打自己来表达忏悔和赎罪。这场运动在黑死病时期尤为盛行,反映了当时社会民众的恐惧和绝望。虽然鞭笞运动最终被教廷宣布为异端并遭到镇压,但它对当时的社会、宗教和文化都产生了重要的影响。

      希望以上信息对您有所帮助。

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      Referee #3

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      In their manuscript titled "Single-molecule tracking reveals the dynamics of Ipl1 recruitment to the kinetochores and spindles in S. cerevisiae", authors Podh, Mehta, and colleagues track single molecules of members of the chromosomal passenger complex (CPC) to determine the dynamics of the complex during chromosome biorientation. The authors tagged members of the CPC with a HaloTag to titrate the number of fluorophores to image single molecules and performed microscopy with high temporal resolution and measure residence lifetimes and diffusion rates of the complex. Furthermore, they used mutations that disrupt different localization pathways for the complex to determine which lifetimes are associated with these pathways. Next, they arrested the cells in metaphase and treated the cells with a microtubule inhibitor to determine the effect of disrupting kinetochore-microtubule connections on CPC dynamics. In this way, they determined that the more long-lived CPC molecules are at unstable connections. Finally, they compared the dynamics of the different complex members and saw that two of the members (Nbl1 and Bir1) have more long-lived associations near kinetochores than the other two members (Sli15 and Ipl1). Overall, the study is quite interesting, as the dynamics of the CPC near the kinetochore are highly relevant for the function of the complex. However, I have some concerns about the methodology and conclusions.

      Major comments:

      1. My largest concerns relate to the categorization of the fluorescent molecules. As far as I can tell from the methods, foci are only counted if they are "bound", meaning that they remain within a certain radius for a minimal number of frames. This requirement appears to assume diffusive movement. However, frequent directed movement would be expected for CPC molecules localized to the inner centromere, kinetochore or spindle. Firstly, the spindle itself would be subject to dynein-directed movements to position it near the bud neck during metaphase. Second, the kinetochores themselves would be undergoing directed movements from microtubule dynamics. These movements are quite rapid and would certainly take place over the timescale of the microscopy experiments performed in this study (See PMC1366782 for example). Kinetochores undergoing these directed movements would likely be the most relevant to CPC function, as these would still be undergoing biorientation.

      To establish the parameters used for assessing bound molecules, the authors used histone H3. However, this would not be an appropriate measure for dynamics at the spindle/kinetochore for the reasons stated above, especially if the measurements were taken from cells that were not in metaphase. As an additional control, the authors could use cell lines with GFP-labeled centromeres in metaphase cells and subject them to the same analyses. Since these are not single molecules, all of the foci would be expected to have lifetimes for the full 40s duration of image collection. Any foci that fall short of this duration would indicate that the lifetimes of some single molecules are not measured for their full duration. 2. The authors repeatedly state that the double exponential decay equations fit the survival probability distributions "well". However, there is no statistical measurements of the fits presented. How much better does double exponential decay fit as compared to single exponential decay? In figure 2A (metaphase), both single and double decay curves are shown in the figure, but they seem to overlap to the point of being nearly indistinguishable. The methods section mentions that F-tests were performed for the fits, but I cannot find the results of the tests.

      On a related note, some of the curves don't seem to fit the data well at all. Figures 2C, 3B, and S3 have especially bad fits. Is there an explanation for this? Would a different method fit these data better? For figure 3B, the data show that over 10 percent of the tracks last longer that 10 seconds. This is much higher than for any other condition, yet the authors conclude that there is no specifically bound fraction since the curve doesn't match the data. This is a substantial issue for the interpretation of these results. 3. For the interpretation of the differences in lifetimes for Bir1/Nbl1 vs. Sli15/Ipl1, the authors conclude that the longer lifetime of the former indicates earlier recruitment to the "kinetochore". A simpler explanation may be that there are different subcomplexes that have different recruitment dynamics. For example, a complex with all four subunits may have a longer lifetime than one that is just Sli15/Ipl1 due to different recruitment methods (Sgo1-dependent vs Ctf19-dependent). The lifetimes of Sli15 or Ipl1 molecules would therefore be a combination of both recruitment methods.

      Minor comments:

      1. In figure 3B (without tension), the ROI and tracks numbers are likely switched based off of the numbers for the other graphs.
      2. In the introduction (Page 4 line 15), the authors conclude about their result from depleting Glc7 that "fast exchange of Ipl1 is essential to keep the Glc7 away from its kinetochore substrates." I'm not sure what this statement means, as it is unlcear what "its" is referring to Ipl1 or Glc7. Either way, I don't think the authors can conclude anything about keeping Glc7 away without looking at the localization of Glc7 itself.
      3. On page 7 line 2 the authors claim to track Ipl1 on "kinetochores" in metaphase. Later on the same page they clarify that they cannot differentiate between inner centromere, inner kinetochore, and outer kinetochore. I would think that they also can't distinguish these with microtubule binding. The authors again claim to be observing kinetochore localization on page 9 line 2. This is confusing, and a more accurate term for the localization should be adopted.
      4. The authors claim that Glc7 is "required for" fast turnover (page 11 line 5), yet they still see many instances of fast turnover following its depletion.
      5. The authors assume that the molecules have a longer lifetime are the ones "involved in phosphorylation" (page 12 line 21 and 24). This claim would need to be justified, as short periods of localization could be sufficient for phosphorylation of substrates.
      6. On page 12 line 23, the authors state numbers for how long it takes Ipl1 to "find its target sites". I cannot find where these numbers come from
      7. On page 13 line 15 the authors claim that tension evicts Ipl1 from kinetochores. However, tension was not specifically tested, as benomyl treatment will create unattached kinetochores.

      Significance

      General assessment: The strengths of the study are in quantifying the dynamics of the CPC at localizations near the kinetochore in a new and informative way. The limitations lye in not knowing where the CPC molecules are localized in relation to the kinetochore, which would have provided mechanistic insights into the recruitment pathways. Although this limits the ability to derive strong mechanistic insights from the results, the numbers themselves are valuable and interesting.

      Advance: Previous studies on CPC localization come from conventional fluorescence microscopy that observes the average of many molecules. This manuscript uses a single molecule technique to observe the residence lifetime and diffusion rate of CPC complex members.

      Audience: This study would be of general interest to researchers that study chromosome biorientation and segregation.

      Reviewer's expertise: Chromosomal passenger complex, budding yeast, microscopy

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      Referee #2

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      This report investigates, using single-molecule approaches, the dynamics of Ipl1(Aurora B)and other Chromosomal Passenger Complex (CPC) components in budding yeast mitosis. The work is largely descriptive, and identifies a number of (confirmatory) results regarding the connections between Ipl1/CPC, its centromere/kinetochore receptors and GLC7/PP1. In addition, experimental rigor is lacking in certain instances, casting doubt on the conclusions made.

      Significance

      Generally, this paper provides some interesting suggestions but falls short in expanding our knowledge significantly. As such the impact of this study will be minor. The used methodology is hard to critically gauge due to strong statements which seem unsubstantiated. In addition, the manuscript is written in a way that appears to generate 'controversy/contrast' with earlier work, which seems unwarranted and unnecessary. Some technical questions remain, which will need to be addressed before publication.

      Specific points:

      • page 1, line 16, change 'the master regulator' to ' a master regulator'.
      • line 18-20, this statement is unnecessary
      • page 2, line 15-17, why does their overlapping ..... make studying Aur-B challenging?
      • page 4, line 11, remove 'the' before Ipl1
      • line 13-16, this is an unclear statement

      Results:

      • in general, why are experiments done in heterozygously tagged diploids? Is there a risk that the untagged, wt allele obscures behavior? Also, viability assays in this situation are not informative about functionality of the used alleles. These experiments will need to be done in 1)haploids or 2) homozygous diploids page 6, line 14-25: this paragraph makes strong statements about the behavior and function of certain Ipl1 pools. These statements seems unsubstantiated by solid data. The whole paper relies on these extrapolations so care should be taken. What evidence are the conclusions based on? Also, how can the authors actually distinguish KI, centromere and spindle pools with confidence here? By looking at tubulin-CloverGFP this seems unrealistic: in fact the imaging that is shown fails to recapitulate classical spindle MT patterns (rather, the whole cell lights up - what's up here?). What about co-localization with other factors? Additional/alternative experiments are needed here. If not, it remains unclear what the analysis downstream of these images signifies. page 12, line 1-6: how can the authors arrive on these conclusions (i.e. Bir1/Nbl1 arrives first -whatever that may even imply vis-a-vis molecular behavior?). These conclusions are not substantiated.
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      Referee #1

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      The CPC is involved in important functions during mitosis, including kinetochore assembly, chromosome biorientation, spindle assembly checkpoint and cytokinesis. In this report, the authors studied the dynamics of the CPC at the kinetochore and mitotic spindle in yeast using single-molecular tracking. They conclude that Ipl1 (the catalytic subunit of the CPC) shows different residence times A) between the kinetochore and the spindle, B) between Ctf19- and Bub1-mediated recruitment to the kinetochore, C) with and without tension during the metaphase arrest, D) in the presence and absence of Glc7 phosphatase, and E) between Bir1-Nbl1 and Sli15-Ipl1.

      These are interesting findings, which provide people working in this research field with useful information. However, some clarifications and additional evidence are required regarding the following points:

      1. The statement about the pink and blue fractions (Page 6, Line 18-20): What is the evidence supporting this statement? More explanations and/or reference citations are required.
      2. Different dynamics between the kinetochore and the spindle (Page 7. Line 5-6): Is this difference due to the different locations in cells or the difference in the cell cycle (metaphase vs anaphase)? Is the dephosphorylation of Sli15, which promotes the relocalization of CPC from the kinetochore to the spindle at the anaphase onset (e.g. Pereira et al Science 2003), involved in this difference? What happens to the CPC dynamics if non-phosphorylatable Sli15 localizes to the spindle during metaphase?
      3. The statement about the Ipl1 dynamics at different kinetochore sites (Page 7, Line 24-25): It is not clear how solid this conclusion is. If they use other kinetics models, do they reach different conclusions? I do not think the functional redundancy of CPCs at three locations would necessarily support the conclusion because they may still redundantly support biorientation and cell viability even if they show different dynamics at the three locations.
      4. The conclusion about Ipl1 dynamics under tension (Page 10, Line 7-8): The kinetochores should also be under tension in metaphase in cycling cells. However, Fig 3C (left) shows the pink fraction (specific bound fraction) is still present in this condition. How do they explain the discrepancy between metaphase arrest (Fig 3B, left) and metaphase in cycling cells (Fig 3C, left)?
      5. Figure 4 should be cited in the last section of Results (Page 11-12).

      Significance

      Given the importance of CPC in the regulation of mitosis, it is useful knowledge for experts that the CPC shows different dynamics depending on different localization sites and under different conditions. However, this work does not tell us much about whether or how the different dynamics of the CPC are important to its function. It is also not clear what molecular mechanisms (e.g. phosphorylation or other post-translational modifications, different affinity between proteins) directly cause the different dynamics of the CPC. Therefore, in my view, the scientific significance is rather limited.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Review:

      The overall goal of this manuscript is to understand how Notch signaling is activated in specific regions of the endocardium, including the OFT and AVC, that undergo EMT to form the endocardial cushions. Using dofetilide to transiently block circulation in E9.5 mice, the authors show that Notch receptor cleavage still occurs in the valve-forming regions due to mechanical sheer stress as Notch ligand expression and oxygen levels are unaffected. The authors go on to show that changes in lipid membrane structure activate mTOR signaling, which causes phosphorylation of PKC and Notch receptor cleavage.

      The strengths of the manuscript include the dual pharmacological and genetic approaches to block blood flow in the mouse, the inclusion of many controls including those for hypoxia, the quality of the imaging, and the clarity of the text. However, several weaknesses were noted surrounding the main claims where the supporting data are incomplete.

      PKC - Notch1 activation:

      (1) Does deletion of Prkce and Prkch affect blood flow, and if so, might that be suppressing Notch1 activation indirectly?

      To address this concern, we performed echocardiography of Prkce<sup>+/-</sup>;Prkch<sup>+/-</sup>, Prkce<sup>-/-</sup>;Prkch<sup>+/-</sup>, and Prkce<sup>+/-</sup>;Prkch<sup>-/-</sup> mouse hearts (Figure 3-supplement figure 2D), showing no significant effect in heartbeat and blood flow. (Line 308)

      (2) It would be helpful to visualize the expression of prkce and prkch by in situ hybridization in E9.5 embryos.

      We now added immunofluorescence staining results for both PKCE and PKCH as shown in Figure 3-supplement figure 2B. In E9.5 embryonic heart, PKCH is mainly expressed in the endocardium overlying AV canal and the base of trabeculae, overlapping with the expression pattern of NICD and pPKC<sup>Ser660</sup>. PKCE is expressed in both endocardium and myocardium. In the endocardium, PKCE is mainly expressed in the endocardium overlying AV canal (Line312-314)

      (2) PMA experiments: Line 223-224: A major concern is related to the conclusion that "blood flow activates Notch in the cushion endocardium via the mTORC2-PKC signaling pathway". To make that claim, the authors show that a pharmacological activation with a potent PKC activator, PMA, rescues NICD levels in the AVC in dofetilide-treated embryos. This claim would also need proof that a lack of blood flow alters the activity of mTORC2 to phosphorylate the targets of PKC phosphorylation. Also, this observation does not explain the link between PKC activity and Notch activation.

      Both AKT Ser473 and PKC Ser660 are well characterized phosphorylation sites regulated by mTORC2 (Baffi TR et. al, mTORC2 controls the activity of PKC and Akt by phosphorylating a conserved TOR interaction motif. Sci Signal. 2021;14.). pAKT<sup>Ser473</sup> is widely used as an indicator of mTORC2 activity. Therefore, the reduced staining intensity of pAKT<sup>Ser473</sup> and pPKC<sup>Ser660</sup> observed in the dofetilide treated embryos should reflect the reduced activity of their common upstream activator mTORC2. This information is provided in Line 317-321.

      As PMA is a well-characterized specific activator of PKC, we believe the rescue of NICD by PMA could explain the link between PKC activity and Notch activation.

      (3) In addition, the authors hypothesise that shear stress lies upstream of PKC and Notch activation, and that because shear stress is highest at the valve-forming regions, PKC and Notch activity is localised to the valve-forming regions. Since PMA treatment affects the entire endocardium which expresses Notch1, NICD should be seen in areas outside of the AVC in the PMA+dofetilide condition. Please clarify.

      As shown in Figure 3C and Figure 3-supplement figure 2B, pPKC, PKCH and PKCE expression are all confined in the AVC region. This explains PMA activates NICD specifically in the valve-forming region. This information is added in Line 312-314.

      Lipid Membrane:

      (1) It is not clear how the authors think that the addition of cholesterol changes the lipid membrane structure or alters Cav-1 distribution. Can this be addressed? Does adding cholesterol make the membrane more stiff? Does increased stiffness result from higher shear stress?

      We do not know how exactly addition of cholesterol alters membrane structure and influence mTORC2-PKC-Notch signaling. As cholesterol is an important component of lipid raft and caveolae, it is possible that enrichment of cholesterol might alter the membrane structure to make the lipid raft structure less dependent on sheer stress. This hypothesis need to be tested in further in vitro studies. This information is added to Line 433-436.

      (2) The loss of blood flow apparently affects Cav1 membrane localization and causes a redistribution from the luminal compartment to lateral cell adhesion sites. Cholesterol treatment of dofetilide-treated hearts (lacking blood flow) rescued Cav1 localization to luminal membrane microdomains and rescued NICD expression. It remains unclear how the general addition of cholesterol would result in a rescue of regionalized membrane distribution within the AVC and in high-shear stress areas.

      We do not know the exact mechanism. As replied in the previous question, future cell-based work is needed to address these important questions. (Line 433-436)

      (3) The authors do not show the entire heart in that rescue treatment condition (cholesterol in dofetilide-treated hearts). Also, there is no quantification of that rescue in Figure 4B. Currently, only overview images of the heart are shown but high-resolution images on a subcellular scale (such as electron microscopy) are needed to resolve and show membrane microdomains of caveolae with Cav1 distribution. This is important because Cav-1could have functions independent of caveolae.

      In Figure 4C, most panels display the large part of the heart including AVC, atrium and ventricle. The images in the third column appear to be more restricted to AVC. We have now replaced these images to reveal AVC and part of the atrium and ventricle. 

      The quantification has also been provided in Figure 4C. We also added a new panel of scanning EM of AVC endocardium, showing numerous membrane invaginations on the luminal surface of the endocardial cells. The size of the invaginations ranges from 50 to 100 nm, consistent with the reported size of caveolae. Dofetilide significantly reduced the number of membrane invaginations, which recovered after restore of blood flow at 5 hours post dofetilide treatment. The reduction of membrane invaginations could also be rescued by ex vivo cholesterol treatment. This information is added to Line 342-349.

      Figure Legends, missing data, and clarity:

      (1) The number of embryos used in each experiment is not clear in the text or figure legends. In general, figure legends are incomplete (for instance in Figure 1).

      Thanks for reminding. we have now added numbers of embryos in the figure legends.

      (2) Line 204: The authors refer to unpublished endocardial RNAseq data from E9.5 embryos. These data must be provided with this manuscript if it is referred to in any way in the text.

      The RNAseq data of PKC isoforms is now provided in Figure3-Figure supplement 2A, Line 301-302.

      (3) Figure 1 shows Dll4 transcript levels, which do not necessarily correlate with protein levels. It would be important to show quantifications of these patterns as Notch/Dll4 levels are cycling and may vary with time and between different hearts.

      The Dll4 immuno-staining in Figure 1B,C is indeed Dll4 protein, not transcript. The quantification is added in Figure 1—Figure supplement 1C. Line 215.

      (4) Line 212-214: The authors describe cardiac cushion defects due to the loss of blood flow and refer to some quantifications that are not completely shown in Figure 3. For instance, quantifications for cushion cellularity and cardiac defects at three hours (after the start of treatment?) are missing.

      The formation of the defects is a developmental process and time dependent. To address this concern, we quantified the cushion cellularity at 5 hours post dofetilide treatment and showed that cell density significantly decreased in the dofetilide treated embryos, albeit less pronounced than the difference at E10.5. (Line 256-257)

      (5) Related to Figure 5. The work would be strengthened by quantification of the effects of dofetilide and verapamil on heartbeat at the doses applied. Is the verapamil dosage used here similar to the dose used in the clinic?

      We are grateful to this suggestion. The effect of dofetilide on heartbeat has already been shown in Figure 2A. We have now additionally measured the heartbeat rate of verapamil treated embryos, and provided the results in Figure 5E. For verapamil injection in mice, a single i.p. dose of 15 mg/kg was used, which is equivalent to 53 mg/m<sup>2</sup> body surface. Verapamil is used in the clinic at dosage ranging from 200 to 480 mg/day, equivalent to 3.33 - 8 mg/kg or 117 - 282 mg/m<sup>2</sup> body surface. Therefore, the dosage used in the mouse is not excessively high compared to the clinic uses. (Line 361-365) 

      Overstated Claims:

      (1) The authors claim that the lipid microstructure/mTORC2/PKC/Notch pathway is responsive to shear stress, rather than other mechanical forces or myocardial function. Their conclusions seem to be extrapolated from various in vitro studies using non-endocardial cells. To solidify this claim, the authors would need additional biomechanical data, which could be obtained via theoretical modelling or using mouse heart valve explants. This issue could also be addressed by the authors simply softening their conclusions.

      We aggrege with the reviewer’s comment. We have now revised the statement as “Our data support a model that membrane lipid microdomain acts as a shear stress sensor and transduces the mechanical cue to activate intracellular mTORC2-PKC-Notch signaling pathway in the developing endocardium. (line 416-418) It is noteworthy that the methodology used to alter blood flow in this study inevitably affects myocardial contraction. Additional work to uncouple sheer stress with other changes of mechanical properties of the myocardium with the aid of theoretical modelling or using mouse heart valve explants is needed to fully characterize the effect of sheer stress on mouse endocardial development.” (Line 436-440)

      (2) Line 263-264: In the discussion, the authors conclude that "Strong fluid shear stress in the AVC and OFT promotes the formation of caveolae on the luminal surface of the endocardial cells, which enhances PKCε phosphorylation by mTORC2." This link was shown rather indirectly, rather than by direct evidence, and therefore the conclusion should be softened. For example, the authors could state that their data are consistent with this model.

      We have revised the statement as “Strong fluid shear stress in the AVC and OFT enhances PKC phosphorylation by mTORC2 possibly by maintaining a particular membrane microstructure.” (Line 372-374)

      (3) In the Discussion, it says: "Mammalian embryonic endocardium undergoes extensive EMT to form valve primordia while zebrafish valves are primarily the product of endocardial infolding (Duchemin et al., 2019)." In the paper cited, Duchemin and colleagues described the formation of the zebrafish outflow tract valve. The zebrafish atrioventricular valve primordia is formed via partial EMT through Dll-Notch signaling (Paolini et al. Cell Reports 2021) and the collective cell migration of endocardial cells into the cardiac jelly. Then, a small subset of cells that have migrated into the cardiac jelly give rise to the valve interstitial cells, while the remainder undergo mesenchymal-to-endothelial transition and become endothelial cells that line the sinus of the atrioventricular valve (Chow et al., doi: 10.1371/journal.pbio.3001505). The authors should modify this part of the Discussion and cite the relevant zebrafish literature.

      Thanks for valuable comments. We have now revised the statement as “Mammalian embryonic endocardium undergoes extensive EMT to form valve primordia while zebrafish atrioventricular valve primordia is formed via partial EMT and the collective cell migration of endocardial cells into the cardiac jelly followed by tissue sheet delamination.” with relevant references added. (Line 411-414)

      Recommendations to the Authors:

      (1) One issue that the authors could address is the organization of figures. There are several cases where positive data that are central to the conclusions are placed in the supplement and should be moved to the main figures. Places where this occurred are listed below:

      - The Tie2 conditional deletion of Dll4 showing retention of NICD in the OFT and AVC regions is highly supportive of the model. The authors should consider moving these data to main Figure 1.

      Thanks for the suggestion. We have reorganized the figure as requested.

      - The ligand expression data in Figure 2- Supplement Figure 1 A is VERY important to the conclusions drawn from the dofetilide treatment. The authors should move these data to main Figure 2.

      The ligand expression data in Figure 2- Supplement Figure 1A are now moved to Figure 2B.

      - In Figure 3A - the area in the field of view should be stated in the Figure (is it the AVC?) Figure 3 - Supplement 1 proximal OFT data should be moved to main Figure 3 as it is central to the conclusions. Negative DA data can be left in the supplement. Again, for Figure 3 - Supplement 1 Stauroporine treatment data should be moved to the main figure as it is positive data that are central to the conclusions.

      Thanks for the suggestion. We have reorganized the figure as requested.

      (2) Antibody used for Twist1 detection is not listed in the resource table.

      Twist1 is purchased from abcam, the detailed information is now available in the resource table.

      (3) Missing arrowhead in Figure 4A, last row.

      Sorry for the negligence. Arrowhead is now added.

      (4) Line 286. "OFT" pasted on the word "endothelium".

      “OFT” is now removed.

      (5) Related to Figure 2C. The fast response of NICD to flow cessation was used as an argument to support post-translational modification. It is not clear why Sox9 and Twist1 expression also responds so quickly.

      Sox9 and Twist1 expression does seem to respond very quickly. Whether there exists additional regulatory pathways such as Wnt, Vegf signaling that also respond to sheer stress needs to be investigated in the future.

      (6) Line 200: The sentence should end with a period.

      Sorry for the oversight. It is now corrected.

      (7) Lines 34 to 35: the authors phrase that Notch is "allowed" to be specifically activated in the AVC and outflow tract by shear stress.

      We have rephrased the statement with “enabling Notch to be specifically activated in AVC and OFT by regional increased shear stress.” Line 27

      (8) Lines 96-100: At the end of the introduction, the text is copied from the abstract. New text should be written or summarized in a different way.

      The last sentence of introduction is now changed to “The results uncovered a new mechanism whereby mechanical force serves as a primary cue for endocardial patterning in mammalian embryonic heart.” (Line 93-95)

      (9) Line 125: The term "agreed with the Dll4 transcript.."should be replaced with a better term like "overlapped" or "was identical with".

      The word “agreed” is now “overlapped”. (Line 219)

      (10) Line 291: "Thus, through these sophisticated mechanisms, the developing mouse hearts may achieve three purposes:"- The English should be adjusted here since it sounds like hearts are aiming to achieve a purpose, which is unlikely what was meant by the authors.

      This sentence is rephrased to “Thus, in the developing mouse hearts: (1) VEGF signaling is reduced to permit endocardial EMT; (2) Dll4 expression is reduced to prevent widespread endocardial Notch activation and make endocardium sensitive to flow; (3) a proper cushion size and shape is maintained by limiting the flanking endocardium to undergo EMT despite physically close to the field of BMP2 derived from of AVC myocardium (Figure 6).” (Line 402-406)

    1. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This manuscript focuses on the apparent involvement of a proposed copper-responsive regulator in the chemotactic response of Pseudomonas putida to Cu(II), a chemorepellent. Broadly, this area is of interest because it could provide insight into how soil microbes mitigate metal stress. Additionally, copper has some historical agricultural use as an antimicrobial, thus can accumulate in soil. The manuscript bases its conclusions on an in vitro screen to identify interacting partners of CheA, an essential kinase in the P. putida chemotaxis-signaling pathway. Much of the subsequent analysis focuses on a regulator of the CsoR/RcnR family (PP_2969).

      Weaknesses:

      The data presented in this work does not support the model (Figure 8). In particular, PP_2969 is linked to Ni/Co resistance not Cu resistance. Further, it is not clear how the putative new interactions with CheA would be integrated into diverse responses to various chemoattract/repellents. These two comments are justified below.

      PP_2969

      • The authors present a sequence alignment (Figure S5) that is the sole based for their initial assignment of this ORF as a CsoR protein. There is conservation of the primary coordinating ligands (highlighted with asterisks) known to be involved in Cu(I) binding to CsoR (ref 31). There are some key differences, though, in residues immediately adjacent to the conserved Cys (the preceding Ala, which is Tyr in the other sequences). The effect of these change may be significant in a physiological context.

      • The gene immediately downstream of PP_2969 is homologous to E. coli RcnA, a demonstrated Ni/Co efflux protein, suggesting that P2969 may be Ni or Co responsive. Indeed PP_2970 has previously been reported as Ni/Co responsive (J. Bact 2009 doi:10.1128/JB.00465-09). The host cytosol plays a critical role in determining metal-response, in addition to the protein, which can explain the divergence from the metal response expected from the alignment.

      • The previous JBact study also explains the lack of an effect (Figure 5b) of deleting PP_2969 on copper-efflux gene expression (copA-I, copA-II, and copB-II) as these are regulated by CueR not PP_2969 consistent with the previous report. Deletion of CsoR/RcnR family regulator will result in constitutive expression of the relevant efflux/detoxification gene, at a level generally equivalent to the de-repression observed in the presence of the signal.

      • Further, CsoR proteins are Cu(I) responsive so measuring Cu(II) binding affinity is not physiologically relevant (Figures 5a and S5b). The affinities of demonstrated CsoR proteins are 10-18 M and these values are determined by competition assay. The MTS assay and resulting affinities are not physiologically relevant.

      • The DNA-binding assays are carried out at protein concentrations well above physiological ranges (Figs 5c and d, and S5c, d). The weak binding will in part result from using DNA-sequences upstream of the copA genes and not from from PP_2970.

      CheA interactions

      There is no consideration given to the likely physiological relevance of the new interacting partners for CheA.

      • How much CheA is present in the cell (copies) and how many copies of other proteins are present? How would specific responses involving individual interacting partners be possible with such a heterogenous pool of putative CheA-complexes in a cell. For PP_2969, the affinity reported (Figure 5A) may lay at the upper end of the CsoR concentration range (for example, CueR in Salmonella is present at ~40 nM).

      • The two-hybrid system experiment uses a long growth time (60 h) before analysis. Even low LacZ activity levels will generate a blue colour, depending upon growth medium (see doi: 10.1016/0076-6879(91)04011-c). It is also not clear how Miller units can be accurately or precisely determined from a solid plate assay (the reference cited describes a protocol for liquid culture).

      Comments on revised version:

      The authors have replied in detail to the various comments about the original manuscripts. However, the responses are generally lengthy rationalisations of the original interpretation of the data and do not fundamentally address critical concerns raised about the physiological relevance of the results. The response appears to rest on the assumption that the numerous interacting partners obtained from the initial screen are all true positives and that all subsequent experimental results are interpreted to justify that assumption. In the case of CsoR, the experimental results and interpretation are inconsistent with previously published studies of the metal and DNA-binding properties of CsoR proteins. The following points reiterate comments from the previous review, in the hopes that the authors will, at the very least, consider the likelihood that the "CsoR" protein they have identified is in fact responsive to a different metal. Further, that the authors consider multiple possible interpretations of the data, particularly those that are inconsistent with the model/hypothesis (and take this into account in their experimental design.

      • (Figure 4) Almost all purified proteins will bind Cu(II) most tightly in vitro, followed by Zn(II) and Ni(II). This behaviour is a consequence of the Irving-Williams affinity series (doi.org/10.1038/162746a0 and doi.org/10.1039/JR9530003192, especially Figure 4) and is not considered an indicator of physiological metal preference. Biomolecules will exhibit the same behaviour as small organic ligands towards first row transition ions because of the flexibility of their structures. Thus, the results obtained are unsurprising and, because of the method used, have no physiological relevance.

      • The authors cite other in vivo work as evidence for varied metal-response by regulator proteins. However, experiments in these citations are of limited relevance because some focus on other structural classes of metalloregulator proteins (so not relevant here) while others focus on changes in metal accumulation by overexpression of the regulator protein, with no examination of the metal-specificity of the efflux protein (the key determinant of the physiological response of the regulator protein - why turn on expression of an efflux protein that can't pump out a particular metal? Finally, adding equivalent concentrations of metals to growing cells is not a good comparison as metals are toxic at different concentrations. The regulators will only have evolved to be just good enough, not perfect, with respect to selectivity. Laboratory experimental conditions often explore non-physiological conditions.

      • It is also important to re-emphasise the authors' own statements on lines 90-93 that P. putida has a CueR protein. This is consistent with the phylogenetic distribution of CueR proteins in gram-negative bacteria. The CsoR proteins, in contrast, are found only in gram-positive bacteria. This inconsistency is ignored by the authors.

      • The implications of the Irving-Williams series on metal-specific responses of bacterial metalloregulator proteins are described in the following references: 10.1016/j.cbpa.2021.102095, 10.1074/jbc.R114.588145, and 10.1038/s41589-018-0211-4). The last reference of this set provides an experimental basis for why metalloregulator affinities for Cu (and Zn and Ni) are so tight (and why the values obtained in Figure 4 in this manuscript are not relevant).

      • Similarly, the previous experimental studies of CsoR proteins not cited by the authors (10.1021/ja908372b 10.1021/bi900115w) provide rigourous experimental approaches for measuring metal and DNA-binding affinities and further highlight the weakness of the experimental design in this manuscript.

      • The DNA-binding assays are not physiologically relevant because they do not use DNA from the operator regulated by the candidate protein (why this was not explored in the revision is difficult to understand). The mobility shift observed at these high protein concentrations will result from non-specific binding. It is unsurprising that Cu(II) has an effect on DNA binding as it is added at such high concentrations relative to both protein and DNA so as to compete for DNA-binding with the protein (which binds weakly because there is no specific recognition site). The 10:1 ratio of Cu:CsoR is 10-times higher than needed as this class of proteins will show decreases in DNA-affinity in the presence of the correct metal at 1:1 stoichiometry. As indicated above, the authors need to consider alternative interpretations for their results rather than try to rationalise the results to fit the model.

      The points raised above readily address the authors' own comments in the response as to their surprise at some of the results and their inconsistency with the model.

      Even if the authors were to identify the correct metal to which the protein responds, there are still fundamental issues with experimental design and interpretation that would need to be addressed to indicate any link between the protein and chemotaxis.

    1. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary.

      Mitochondrial dysfunction is associated with a wide spectrum of genetic and age-related diseases. Healthy mitochondria form a dynamic reticular network and constantly fuse, divide, and move. In contrast, dysfunctional mitochondria have altered dynamic properties resulting in fragmentation of the network and more static mitochondria. It has recently been reported that different types of mitochondrial stress or dysfunction activate kinases that control the integrated stress response, including HRI, PERK and GCN2. Kinase activity results in decreased global translation and increased transcription of stress response genes via ATF4, including genes that encode mitochondrial protein chaperones and proteases (HSP70 and LON). In addition, the ISR kinases regulate other mitochondrial functions including mitochondrial morphology, phospholipid composition, inner membrane organization, and respiratory chain activity. Increased mitochondrial connectivity may be a protective mechanism that could be initiated by pharmacological activation of ISR kinases, as was recently demonstrated for GCN2.

      A small molecule screening platform was used to identify nucleoside mimetic compounds that activate HRI. These compounds promote mitochondrial elongation and protect against acute mitochondrial fragmentation induced by a calcium ionophore. Mitochondrial connectivity is also increased in patient cells with a dominant mutation in MFN2 by treatment with the compounds.

      Strengths:

      (1) The screen leverages a well-characterized reporter of the ISR: translation of ATF4-FLuc is activated in response to ER stress or mitochondrial stress. Nucleoside mimetic compounds were screened for activation of the reporter, which resulted in the identification of nine hits. The two most efficacious in dose response tests were chosen for further analysis (0357 and 3610). The authors clearly state that the compounds have low potency. These compounds were specific to the ISR and did not activate the unfolded protein response or the heat shock response. Kinases activated in the ISR were systematically depleted by CRISPRi revealing that the compounds activate HRI.<br /> (2) The status of the mitochondrial network was assessed with an Imaris analysis pipeline and attributes such as length, sphericity, and ellipsoid principal axis length were quantified. The characteristics of the mitochondrial network in cells treated with the compounds were consistent with increased connectivity. Rigorous controls were included. These changes were attenuated with pharmacological inhibition of the ISR.<br /> (3) Treatment of cells with the calcium ionophore results in rapid mitochondrial fragmentation. This was diminished by pre-treatment with 0357 or 3610 and control treatment with thapsigargin and halofuginone.<br /> (4) Pathogenic mutations in MFN2 result in the neurodegenerative disease Charcot-Marie-Tooth Syndrome Type 2A (CMT2A). Patient cells that express Mfn2-D414V possess fragmented mitochondrial networks and treatment with 0357 or 3610 increased mitochondrial connectivity in these cells.

      Weaknesses:

      The weakness is the limited analysis of cellular changes following treatment with the compounds.<br /> (1) Unclear how 0357 or 3610 alter other aspects of cellular physiology. While this would be satisfying to know, it may be that the authors determined that broad, unbiased experiments such as RNAseq or proteomic analysis are not justified due to the limited translational potential of these specific compounds.<br /> (2) There are many changes in Mfn2-D414V patient cells including reduced respiratory capacity, reduced mtDNA copy number, and fewer mitochondrial-ER contact sites. These experiments are relatively narrow in scope and quantifying more than mitochondrial structure would reveal if the compounds improve mitochondrial function, as is predicted by their model.

      Comments on revisions:

      Many reviewer concerns have been addressed or will be addressed in forthcoming manuscripts.

    2. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary: 

      This manuscript (Baron, Oviedo et al., 2024) builds on a previous study from the Wiseman lab (Perea, Baron et al., 2023) and describes the identification of novel nucleoside mimetics that activate the HRI branch of the ISR and drive mitochondrial elongation. The authors develop an image processing and analysis pipeline to quantify the effects of these compounds on mitochondrial networks and show that these HRI activators mitigate ionomycin-driven mitochondrial fragmentation. They then show that these compounds rescue mitochondrial morphology defects in patient-derived MFN2 mutant cell lines. 

      Strengths: 

      The identification of new ISR modulators opens new avenues for biological discovery surrounding the interplay between mitochondrial form/function and the ISR, a topic that is of broad interest. It also reinforces the possibility that such compounds might represent new potential therapeutics for certain mitochondrial disorders. The development of a quantitative image analysis pipeline is valuable and has the potential to extract the subtle effects of various treatments on mitochondrial morphology. 

      We thank the reviewer for the positive feedback on our manuscript. We address all of the reviewer’s valuable concerns in the revised submission, as highlighted below. 

      Weaknesses: 

      I have three main concerns.

      First, support for the selectivity of compounds 0357 and 3610 acting downstream of HRI comes from using knockdown ISR kinase cell lines and measuring the fluorescence of ATF4-mApple (Figure 1G and 1H). However, the selectivity of these compounds acting through HRI is not shown for mitochondrial morphology. Is mitochondrial elongation blocked in HRI knockdown cells treated with the compounds? While the ISRIB treatment does block mitochondrial elongation, ISRIB acts downstream of all ISR kinases and doesn't necessarily define selectivity for the HRI branch of the ISR. Additionally, are the effects of these compounds on ATF4 production and mitochondrial elongation blocked in a non-phosphorylatable eIF2alpha mutant? 

      We thank the reviewer for highlighting this point. As indicated by the reviewer, we show that compounddependent increases in mitochondrial elongation are blocked by co-treatment with ISRIB, indicating that this effect can be attributed to ISR activation. We prefer the use of this highly selective pharmacologic approach to block ISR activation, as opposed to the MEF<sup>A/A</sup> cells, as the use of pharmacologic approaches provide more temporal control over ISR inhibition and can prevent the type of chronic disruption to mitochondria associated with these types of genetic perturbations. However, the reviewer is correct that ISRIB blocks downstream of all ISR kinases, meaning that we cannot explicitly demonstrate that 0357 and 3610 induce mitochondrial elongation downstream of HRI-dependent ISR activation using this tool. Thus, to address this point, we have clarified the discussion of these results to make it clear that our results show that our compounds induce mitochondrial elongation downstream of the ISR, omitting the direct implications of HRI in this phenotype. 

      This point of selectivity/specificity of the compounds gets at a semantic stumbling block I encountered in the text where it was often stated "stress-independent activation" of ISR kinases. Nucleoside mimetics are likely a very biologically active class of molecules and are likely driving some level of cell stress independent of a classical ISR, UPR, heat-shock response, or oxidative stress response. 

      A major challenge in defining stress-independent activation of stress-responsive signaling pathways is the fact that the activation of these pathways is often used as a primary marker of cellular stress. While this can be overcome by transcriptome-wide profiling (e.g., RNAseq), the reviewer is correct that our focused profiling of select stress-responsive signaling pathways is insufficient to claim the stress-independent activation of the ISR by our prioritized compounds. To address this, we removed this terminology from the revised submission.  

      Second, it is difficult for me to interpret the data for the quantification of mitochondrial morphology. In the legend for Figure 2, it is stated that "The number of individual measurements for each condition are shown above." Are the individual measurements the number of total cells quantified? If not, how many total cells were analyzed? If the individual measurements are distinct mitochondrial structures that could be quantified why are the n's for each parameter (bounding box, ellipsoid principal axis, and sphericity) so different? Does this mean that for some mitochondria certain parameters were not included in the analysis? For me, it seems more intuitive that each mitochondrial unit should have all three parameters associated with it, but if this isn't the case it needs to be more carefully described why. 

      The number of individual measurements refers to the number of 3D segmentations generated using the “surfaces’ module in Imaris. As the reviewer noted, we expect each surface segmentation to represent a single “mitochondrial unit.” We have now further clarified this in the figure legend. 

      Regarding differences in sample size for each group, we used an outlier test (i.e., ROUT outlier test in PRISM 10) to remove apparent outliers in our data. Often, these outliers result from errors in the automatic quantification that inaccurately merge two mitochondria into one large segmentation. This explains the discrepancy in the number of measurements made for each experimental group. We have made this point more clear in the Materials and Methods section of the revised manuscript.  

      Third, the impact of these compounds on the physiological function of mitochondria in the MFN2.D414V mutants needs to be measured. Sharma et al., 2021 showed a clear deficit in mitochondrial OCR in MFN2.D414V cells which, if rescued by these compounds, would strengthen the argument that pharmacological ISR kinase activation is a strategy for targeting the functional consequences of the dysregulation of mitochondrial form.

      In this manuscript, we demonstrate that pharmacologic activation of the ISR using 0357 and 3610 rescue mitochondrial morphology in patient fibroblasts expressing the disease-associated MFN2<sup>D414V</sup> mutant. The reviewer is correct that there are other mitochondrial phenotypes linked to the expression of this mutant. We are currently pursuing this question with more potent ISR activating compounds developed in our laboratory identified using the HTS screening platform described in this manuscript. However, this work, which builds on the studies described herein, uses other ISR activating compounds, which we feel would be best described in subsequent manuscripts that can fully define the activity of these new compounds.  

      Reviewer #2 (Public review): 

      Summary. 

      Mitochondrial dysfunction is associated with a wide spectrum of genetic and age-related diseases. Healthy mitochondria form a dynamic reticular network and constantly fuse, divide, and move. In contrast, dysfunctional mitochondria have altered dynamic properties resulting in fragmentation of the network and more static mitochondria. It has recently been reported that different types of mitochondrial stress or dysfunction activate kinases that control the integrated stress response, including HRI, PERK, and GCN2. Kinase activity results in decreased global translation and increased transcription of stress response genes via ATF4, including genes that encode mitochondrial protein chaperones and proteases (HSP70 and LON). In addition, the ISR kinases regulate other mitochondrial functions including mitochondrial morphology, phospholipid composition, inner membrane organization, and respiratory chain activity. Increased mitochondrial connectivity may be a protective mechanism that could be initiated by pharmacological activation of ISR kinases, as was recently demonstrated for GCN2. 

      A small molecule screening platform was used to identify nucleoside mimetic compounds that activate HRI. These compounds promote mitochondrial elongation and protect against acute mitochondrial fragmentation induced by a calcium ionophore. Mitochondrial connectivity is also increased in patient cells with a dominant mutation in MFN2 by treatment with the compounds.

      Strengths: 

      (1) The screen leverages a well-characterized reporter of the ISR: translation of ATF4-FLuc is activated in response to ER stress or mitochondrial stress. Nucleoside mimetic compounds were screened for activation of the reporter, which resulted in the identification of nine hits. The two most efficacious dose-response tests were chosen for further analysis (0357 and 3610). The authors clearly state that the compounds have low potency. These compounds were specific to the ISR and did not activate the unfolded protein response or the heat shock response. Kinases activated in the ISR were systematically depleted by CRISPRi revealing that the compounds activate HRI.

      (2) The status of the mitochondrial network was assessed with an Imaris analysis pipeline and attributes such as length, sphericity, and ellipsoid principal axis length were quantified. The characteristics of the mitochondrial network in cells treated with the compounds were consistent with increased connectivity. Rigorous controls were included. These changes were attenuated with pharmacological inhibition of the ISR. 

      (3) Treatment of cells with the calcium ionophore results in rapid mitochondrial fragmentation. This was diminished by pre-treatment with 0357 or 3610 and control treatment with thapsigargin and halofuginone 

      (4) Pathogenic mutations in MFN2 result in the neurodegenerative disease Charcot-Marie-Tooth Syndrome Type 2A (CMT2A). Patient cells that express Mfn2-D414V possess fragmented mitochondrial networks and treatment with 0357 or 3610 increased mitochondrial connectivity in these cells.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s positive response to these aspects of our manuscript. We address the reviewer’s valuable comments in the revised submission as highlighted below. 

      Weaknesses: 

      The weakness is the limited analysis of cellular changes following treatment with the compounds. 

      (1) Unclear how 0357 or 3610 alter other aspects of cellular physiology. While this would be satisfying to know, it may be that the authors determined that broad, unbiased experiments such as RNAseq or proteomic analysis are not justified due to the limited translational potential of these specific compounds.

      The reviewer is correct. The low potency of 0357 and 3610 limit the translational potential for these compounds. However, building on the work described herein, we recently identified more potent HRI activating compounds with higher translational potential. Using RNAseq profiling, we found that these compounds show transcriptomewide selectivity for the ISR and can promote adaptive remodeling of mitochondrial morphology and function in cellular models of multiple other diseases. These compounds will be further described in subsequent studies that expand on the efforts outlined here demonstrating the potential for pharmacologic HRI activators to promote adaptive mitochondrial remodeling.   

      (2) There are many changes in Mfn2-D414V patient cells including reduced respiratory capacity, reduced mtDNA copy number, and fewer mitochondrial-ER contact sites. These experiments are relatively narrow in scope and quantifying more than mitochondrial structure would reveal if the compounds improve mitochondrial function, as is predicted by their model.

      In this manuscript, we demonstrate that pharmacologic activation of the ISR using 0357 and 3610 rescue mitochondrial morphology in patient fibroblasts expressing the disease-associated MFN2<sup>D414V</sup> mutant. The reviewer is correct that there are other mitochondrial phenotypes linked to the expression of this mutant. We are currently pursuing this question with more potent ISR activating compounds developed in our laboratory using the HTS screening platform described in this manuscript. However, this work, which builds on the studies described herein, uses other ISR activating compounds, which we feel would be best described in subsequent manuscripts that can fully define the activity of these new compounds.  

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary: 

      Mitochondrial injury activates eiF2α kinases - PERK, GCN2, HRI, and PKR - which collectively regulate the Integrated Stress Response (ISR) to preserve mitochondrial function and integrity. Previous work has demonstrated that stress-induced and pharmacologic stress-independent ISR activation promotes adaptive mitochondrial elongation via the PERK and GCN2 kinases, respectively. Here, the authors demonstrate that pharmacologic ISR inducers of HRI and GCN2 enhance mitochondrial elongation and suppress mitochondrial fragmentation in two disease models, illustrating the therapeutic potential of pharmacologic ISR activators. Specifically, the authors first used an innovative ISR translational reporter to screen for nucleoside mimetic compounds that induce ISR signaling and identified two compounds, 0357 and 3610, that preferentially activate HRI. Using a mitochondrial-targeted GFP MEF cell line, the authors next determined that these compounds (as well as the GCN2 activator, halofuginone) enhance mitochondrial elongation in an ISR-dependent manner. Moreover, pretreatment of MEFs with these ISR kinase activators suppressed pathological mitochondrial fragmentation caused by a calcium ionophore. Finally, pharmacologic HRI and GCN2 activation were found to preserve mitochondrial morphology in human fibroblasts expressing a pathologic variant in MFN2, a defect that leads to mitochondrial fragmentation and is a cause of Charcot Marie Tooth Type 2A disease. 

      Strengths: 

      This well-written manuscript has several notable strengths, including the demonstration of the potential therapeutic benefit of ISR modulation. New chemical entities with which to further interrogate this stress response pathway are also reported. In addition, the authors used an elegant screen to isolate compounds that selectively activate the ISR and identify which of the four kinases was responsible for activation. Special attention was also paid to a thorough evaluation of the effect of their compounds on other stress response pathways (i.e. the UPR, and heat and oxidative stress responses), thereby minimizing the potential for off-target effects. The implementation of automated image analysis rather than manual scoring to quantify mitochondrial elongation is not only practical but also adds to the scientific rigor, as does the complementary use of both the calcium ionophore and MFN2 models to enhance confidence and the broad therapeutic potential for pharmacology ISR manipulation. 

      We thank the reviewer for their positive response to our manuscript. We address the reviewer’s remaining concerns as outlined below. 

      Weaknesses: 

      The only minor concerns are with regard to effects on cell health and the timing of pharmacological administration. 

      The two compounds described in this manuscript were found to not induce any overt toxicity over a 24 h period in cell culture models. In the revised manuscript, we show data showing that treatment with increasing doses of either 0357 or 3610 do not significantly reduce cellular viability in HEK293 cells (Fig. S1G). 

      With regards to treatments, we include all of the relevant information for the timing and dosage of compound treatment in the revised manuscript. 

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for Authors)

      (1) Figure S1 "B. ATF4-Gluc activity" -> Fluc, The number of replicates is not consistently stated for each experiment. p-values are not given for D and F. 

      We have changed the legend for Fig. S1B to ATF4-FLuc. We show individual replicates for all experiments for all panels described in this figure, except panels C and G, in the revised Figure S1. We explicitly state the number of replicates in panel C and G in the accompanying figure legend. We have repeated the qPCR described in panels C,F and statistics are included in the revised manuscript.

      (2) Figure 2 - no p-values for BtdCPU.

      Yes. We found that BtdCPU-dependent increases in mitochondrial fragmentation (described in Fig. 2A-D) were not significant when analyzing all the data included in these figures by Brown-Forsythe and Welch ANOVA test. However, the DMSO and BtdCPU conditions were significantly different when directly compared using a Welch’s t-test (p<0.005). Since the statistics in this manuscript are being analyzed by ANOVA, we decided not to include a significance marker for BtdCPU, as it was not observed in this more stringent test and is not the main focus of this manuscript.  

      (3) Figure S4 (Supplement to Figure 5) -> Supplement to Figure 4. 

      We have corrected this error in the revised manuscript. 

      (4) Error in references - duplicated 24 and 46, duplicated 10 and 11.

      This is now corrected in the revised submission.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      I would love to see an assessment of mitochondrial function and mtDNA in the D414 cells following treatment. 

      As indicated above, we are continuing to probe the impact of more potent HRI activating compounds in patientderived cell models expressing disease-relevant MFN2 mutants. Initial experiments suggest that this approach can mitigate additional pathologies beyond deficient elongation in these cells, although we are continuing to pursue these results with our improved HRI activating compounds. We are excited by these results, but feel that they are best suited for a follow-up manuscript describing these new HRI activators.   

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      The only suggestion to broaden the manuscript's impact might be to perform a basic assessment of the impact of pharmaceutical ISR activation on cell viability. Though mitochondrial elongation is often considered a surrogate for mitochondrial health, whether mitochondrial elongation improves cell viability (or not) would be informative. Similarly, the authors did not address the time-dependent effects of the ISR modulators, choosing to focus on the acute rather more chronic outcomes. Finally, does simultaneous (rather than pre-) treatment with an activator and the ionomycin produce similar effects on mitochondrial morphology, especially since therapeutics are typically administered post-injury?

      We now include cell viability experiments showing that the two HRI activators discussed in this manuscript, 0357 and 3610, do not significantly reduce viability in HEK293 cells. This work is included in the revised manuscript (see Fig. S1G). 

      With respect to acute vs chronic outcomes of ISR activation. As highlighted by the reviewer, we primarily focus this work on defining the impact of acute ISR treatment on mitochondrial morphology. As discussed above, we now show that our prioritized ISR activating compounds 0357 and 3610 do not significantly impact cellular viability over a 24 h timecourse. However, as suggested by the reviewer, additional studies on the potential implications of chronic pharmacologic ISR activation on mitochondrial biology remains to be further explored.

      We are continuing to address this in subsequent studies using more potent ISR kinase activating compounds established in our lab. However, we would like to highlight that detrimental phenotypes linked to chronic ISR kinase activation in cell culture does not preclude the translational potential for this approach, as in vivo PK/PD of these compounds can be controlled to prevent complications arising from chronic pathway activity. We previously demonstrated the potential for controlling compound activity through its PK/PD in our establishment of highly selective activators of other stress-responsive signaling pathways such as the IRE1/XBP1s arm of the UPR (e.g., Madhavan et al (2022) Nat Comm).   

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comments regarding the timing of compound treatment in them ionomycin experiment. Ionomycin works extremely quick to induce fragmentation (minutes), which would be prior to activation of the ISR induced by these compounds (hours). Thus, co-treatment would lead to fragmentation. It is an interesting question to ask if co-treatment with ISR activators could rescue this fragmentation as the pathway is activated, but we did not explicitly address this question in this manuscript. However, we do show that pharmacologic GCN2 or HRI activators can rescue mitochondrial morphology in patient fibroblasts expressing a MFN2 mutant, where mitochondria are fragmented, indicating that our approach can restore mitochondrial morphology in this context. We feel that these results, in combination with others described in our manuscript, demonstrate the potential for this approach to mitigate pathologic mitochondrial fragmentation associated with different conditions.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This work uses transgenic reporter lines to isolate entpd5a+ cells representing classical osteoblasts in the head and non-classical (osterix-) notochordal sheath cells. The authors also include entpd5a- cells, col2a1a+ cells to represent the closely associated cartilage cells. In a combination of ATAC and RNA-Seq analysis, the genome-wide transcriptomic and chromatin status of each cell population is characterized, validating their methodology and providing fundamental insights into the nature of each cell type, especially the less well-studied notochordal sheath cells. Using these data, the authors then turn to a thorough and convincing analysis of the regulatory regions that control the expression of the entpd5a gene in each cell population. Determination of transcriptional activities in developing zebrafish, again combined with ATAC data and expression data of putative regulators, results in a compelling and detailed picture of the regulatory mechanisms governing the expression of this crucial gene.

      Strengths:

      The major strength of this paper is the clever combination of RNA-Seq and ATAC analysis, further combined with functional transcriptional analysis of the regulatory elements of one crucial gene. This results in a very compelling story.

      Weaknesses:

      No major weaknesses were identified, except for all the follow-up experiments that one can think of, but that would be outside of the scope of this paper.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Complementary to mammalian models, zebrafish has emerged as a powerful system to study vertebrate development and to serve as a go-to model for many human disorders. All vertebrates share the ancestral capacity to form a skeleton. Teleost fish models have been a key model to understand the foundations of skeletal development and plasticity, pairing with more classical work in amniotes such as the chicken and mouse. However, the genetic foundation of the diversity of skeletal programs in teleosts has been hampered by mapping similarities from amniotes back and not objectively establishing more ancestral states. This is most obvious in systematic, objective analysis of transcriptional regulation and tissue specification in differentiated skeletal tissues. Thus, the molecular events regulating bone-producing cells in teleosts have remained largely elusive. In this study, Petratou et al. leverage spatial experimental delineation of specific skeletal tissues -- that they term 'classical' vs 'non-classical' osteoblasts -- with associated cartilage of the endo/peri-chondrial skeleton and inter-segmental regions of the forming spine during development of the zebrafish, to delineate molecular specification of these cells by current chromatin and transcriptome analysis. The authors further show functional evidence of the utility of these datasets to identify functional enhancer regions delineating entp5 expression in 'classical' or 'non-classical' osteoblast populations. By integration with paired RNA-seq, they delineate broad patterns of transcriptional regulation of these populations as well as specific details of regional regulation via predictive binding sites within ATACseq profiles. Overall the paper was very well written and provides an essential contribution to the field that will provide a foundation to promote modeling of skeletal development and disease in an evolutionary and developmentally informed manner.

      Strengths:

      Taken together, this study provides a comprehensive resource of ATAC-seq and RNA-seq data that will be very useful for a wide variety of researchers studying skeletal development and bone pathologies. The authors show specificity in the different skeletal lineages and show the utility of the broad datasets for defining regulatory control of gene regulation in these different lineages, providing a foundation for hypothesis testing of not only agents of skeletal change in evolution but also function of genes and variations of unknown significance as it pertains to disease modeling in zebrafish. The paper is excellently written, integrating a complex history and experimental analysis into a useful and coherent whole. The terminology of 'classical' and 'non-classical' will be useful for the community in discussing the biology of skeletal lineages and their regulation.

      Weaknesses:

      Two items arose that were not critical weaknesses but areas for extending the description of methods and integration into the existing data on the role of non-classical osteoblasts and establishment/canalization of this lineage of skeletal cells.

      (1) In reading the text it was unclear how specific the authors' experimental dissection of the head/trunk was in isolating different entp5a osteoblast populations. Obviously, this was successful given the specificity in DEG of results, however, analysis of contaminating cells/lineages in each population would be useful - e.g. using specific marker genes to assess. The text uses terms such as 'specific to' and 'enriched in' without seemingly grounded meaning of the accuracy of these comments. Is it really specific - e.g. not seen in one or other dataset - or is there some experimental variation in this?

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. Given that the separation from head and trunk is done manually, there will be some experimental variability. We have used anatomical hallmarks (cleithrum and swim bladder), and therefore would expect the variability to be small. Regarding classical osteoblasts contaminating trunk tissue, head removal was consistently performed using the aforementioned anatomical hallmarks in a manner that ensures that the cleithrum does not remain in the trunk tissue.  In order to alleviate concerns regarding trunk cell populations contaminating cranial populations, and to further clarify our strategy, we add the following statement to the Materials and Methods section: “The procedure does not allow for a complete separation of notochordal non-classical osteoblasts from cranial classical osteoblasts, as the notochord extends into the cranium. However, the amount of sheath cells in that portion of the notochord is negligible, compared both to the number of classical (cranial) osteoblasts in head samples, and to notochord cells isolated in trunk samples.”

      (2) Further, it would be valuable to discuss NSC-specific genes such as calymmin (Peskin 2020) which has species and lineage-specific regulation of non-classical osteoblasts likely being a key mechanistic node for ratcheting centra-specific patterning of the spine in teleost fishes. What are dynamics observed in this gene in datasets between the different populations, especially when compared with paralogues - are there obvious cis-regulatory changes that correlate with the co-option of this gene in the early regulation of non-classical osteoblasts? The addition of this analysis/discussion would anchor discussions of the differential between different osteoblasts lineages in the paper.

      This is an interesting concept and idea, that we will consider in a possible revision or, if requiring substantial additional efforts, in a possible new research line. An excellent starting point for further studies using our datasets.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This study characterizes classical and nonclassical osteoblasts as both types were analyzed independently (integrated ATAC-seq and RNAseq). It was found that gene expression in classical and nonclassical osteoblasts is not regulated in the same way. In classical osteoblasts, Dlx family factors seem to play an important role, while Hox family factors are involved in the regulation of spinal ossification by nonclassical osteoblasts. In the second part of the study, the authors focus on the promoter structure of entpd5a. Through the identification of enhancers, they reveal complex modes of regulation of the gene. The authors suggest candidate transcription factors that likely act on the identified enhancer elements. All the results taken together provide comprehensive new insights into the process of bone development, and point to spatio-temporally regulated promoter/enhancer interactions taking place at the entpd5a locus.

      Strengths:

      The authors have succeeded in justifying a sound and consistent buildup of their experiments, and meaningfully integrating the results into the design of each of their follow-up experiments. The data are solid, insightfully presented, and the conclusion valid. This makes this manuscript of great value and interest to those studying (fundamental) skeletal biology.

      Weaknesses:

      The study is solidly constructed, the manuscript is clearly written and the discussion is meaningful - I see no real weaknesses.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Minor issues that may need to be addressed or detailed:

      Supplementary Figures 1I-J, text page 4, line 24: "photoconversion and imaging": this needs some more detailed description: green fluorescent cells should be actively expressing Kaede, but only if there is a delay between photoconversion and imaging. What is the reason that Supplementary Figure 1F shows mainly green fluorescent cells, contrary to 1G-J?

      In our experiments, we could see new Kaede expression under the control of the entpd5a promoter region within 1.5 hours of photoconversion, as shown in Suppl. Figure 1E-H, suggesting that this time window was sufficient for protein generation. The reason for Suppl. Fig 1F showing more green fluorescence we believe relates to the high rate of transcriptional activity at that stage, in the entirety of the notochord progenitor cells. In addition, this is an effect which we attribute to the relatively small number of cells producing red fluorescence at that stage, due to photoconversion of only a few Kaede+ cells at the 15 somites stage (Suppl. Fig. 1E). Therefore, the masking effect of the green fluorescence by the red is not as significant as in G and H, where the red fluorescence resulting from photoconversion right after imaging at 18s and 21s, respectively, significantly overlaps with new green fluorescence. This can be seen in the image as the presence of orange fluorescence in G and H, instead of the clear red shown in E, I and J.

      In addition to this, we would like to point out that in Suppl. Fig. 1I, J the reason that green fluorescence is only detected in the ventral region of the notochord, is because the promoter of entpd5a only remains active in the ventral-most sheath cells at that stage. This is stated in the results section of the main text, first subsection, paragraph 3. The reason for this very interesting, strictly localised expression pattern remains unclear.

      Somewhat intriguing: green fluorescence in Figure 1B, C (osx:GAL4FF) and Supplementary Figure 1C (entpd5a:GAL4FF) in the CNS? Would that be an artefact of the GAL4FF/UAS:GFP system?

      We are confident that the fluorescence pointed out by the reviewer is not an artefact of the GAL4FF/UAS system, for a few reasons. Firstly, osx (Sp7) has been shown to be expressed and to function in the nervous system in mice (Park et al, BBRC, 2011; Elbaz et al, Neuron, 2023). Secondly, not only osx, but also entpd5a can be readily detected in a subset of cranial and spinal neurons in early development using the entpd5a:GAL4FF; UAS:GFP transgenic line (Suppl. Fig 1C). Finally, when establishing transgenic lines with the entpd5a(1.1):GFP construct, expression was almost invariably present in diverse elements of the nervous system, but not in bone (data not shown). This led us to hypothesise that the minimal promoter of entpd5a (and possibly also that of osx) is activated by transcription factors active in the nervous system, and this effect is likely controlled by the surrounding enhancers, but also the genome location. It is unclear at present what the endogenous neural expression of the two genes is like, and we did not further investigate this in this study, as the focus was on the skeleton.

      Figure 2: What exactly is "Corrected Total Cell Fluorescence"? Is it green + red fluorescence?

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out the absence of more information on this. Corrected total cell fluorescence does not correspond to green+ red fluorescence, rather it is calculated as follows for a single channel:

      CTCF = Integrated Density – (Area of selected cell X Mean fluorescence of background readings)

      More details can be found in the following website: https://theolb.readthedocs.io/en/latest/imaging/measuring-cell-fluorescence-using-imagej.html

      We have edited the Materials and Methods section under “Imaging and image analysis” to include the aforementioned information.

      Page 11, line 34: The authors may have missed the recently published "Raman et al., Biomolecules 2024 Vol. 14; doi:10.3390/biom14020139" describing RNA-Seq in 4 dpf osterix+ osteoblasts.

      We thank the reviewer for drawing our attention to the Raman et al publication. The reference has now been added in the manuscript.

      Figure 5A and B: use a higher resolution version to make the numbers and gene names more readable. Figures 5C and 6A could also use a larger font for the text and numbers.

      High resolution files are now included with the revised manuscript, which should significantly help in making figures more easily readable. Although we agree with the reviewer that larger fonts would improve readability, due to the nature of the graphs (very small spaces in some cases, where the numbers would have to fit) this would not be easy to achieve. However, we believe that this issue will be resolved with the availability of higher resolution files. If readability remains a concern, we would be happy to attempt re-organising the graphs to allow for larger fonts.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I suggest no further experiments, but do suggest that a few points be clarified.

      In the Discussion, the text "the less evolved osteoblasts of fish and amphibians..." is not accurate. These cells are not less evolved as they represent an independent lineage to tetrapods that have evolved with different stresses for a similar time. However, as teleost fishes and amphibians share characteristics and all share a common ancestor, these signatures represent a putative ancestral state of skeletal differentiation not seen in amniotes, including humans.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out the unfortunate phrasing. The text has now been modified as follows: “Specifically, the osteoblasts of teleost fish and amphibians, whose characteristics are putatively closer to a more ancestral state of skeletal differentiation compared to amniotes, appear to share gene expression with chondrocytes”.

      The title could potentially be shortened to reach a broader audience by removing the initial clause of 'integration of ATAC and RNA seq' as this is a commonly performed analysis - "Chromatin and transcriptomic signature in classical and non-classical zebrafish osteoblasts indicate mechanisms of ancestral skeletal differentiation" is more descriptive of the findings and not focused on the method.

      We have discussed this internally, but would prefer to retain the current title. The reason is (1) because we would like to see our methodology and datasets be used as platform for further studies, and the current title, in our opinion, facilitates this. In regards to replacing “mechanisms of entpd5a regulation” with “mechanisms of ancestral skeletal differentiation”, we think this does not give an accurate description of our work, which is primarily focused on elucidating entpd5a promoter dynamics.

      All datasets should be made available as soon as possible for use in the field.

      The datasets (raw and processed) are available on the GEO database. The corresponding accession numbers can be found in our data availability statement.

      Minor comments:

      (1) Figure 1A. The labels are missing for grey and light blue structures.

      These structures are together making up the “notochord sheath”, which is comprised of the basal lamina (grey), the medial layer of fibrillar collagen (light blue) and the outer layer of loosely arranged matrix (lighter blue). We modified the figure legend to indicate that the three layers all correspond to the notochord sheath.

      (2) Figure 2A. The constructs in the lower part of the panel are not discussed in the legend and seem out of place in terms of data type and analysis.

      We would argue that indicating which non-coding regions and which ATAC peaks were responsible for driving GFP expression in each construct aids in a better understanding of our results. We thank the reviewer for pointing out the lack of mention of these constructs in the figure legend. This issue has now been resolved.

      (3) Be wary of red/green color combinations, especially in the figures where these are juxtaposed with each other.

      We apologise for the use of red/green colour. Although it is not possible for this manuscript to change the colour patterns, we will make sure to avoid the use of these colours in conjunction in the future.

      (4) The use of fish as a term should be classified as teleost fish, as authors are not addressing non-teleost basal ray-finned fishes or the fact that tetrapods are within bony fishes overall.

      This is well spotted, we have now remedied this by editing the manuscript. Where the term “fish” was used, we now state “teleost fish”.

      (5) Age information is missing in several Figures (e.g. 1D and 2C).

      In some of the figures space constrains did not allow for including the stage on the figure itself. However, we have made sure that in those cases the stage is incorporated in the figure legend.

      (6) The resolution of several Figures (e.g. Figure 5 and Supplementary Figure 3) is low.

      We address this issue by providing high resolution figures with the revised manuscript.

      (7) In the sentence (top page before Discussion) "The same conclusion was reached upon isolation from these three..", it was unclear what 'upon isolation' referred to.

      We agree with the reviewer that this phrasing is unclear. To enhance clarity, the manuscript now reads as follows: “The same conclusion was reached upon isolation of the DEGs highlighted by our RNA-seq results, from the three aforementioned groups of genes associated with ATAC peaks for each cell population.”

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This study investigated the phosphoryl transfer mechanism of the enzyme adenylate kinase, using SCC-DFTB quantum mechanical/molecular mechanical (QM/MM) simulations, along with kinetic studies exploring the temperature and pH dependence of the enzyme's activity, as well as the effects of various active site mutants. Based on a broad free energy landscape near the transition state, the authors proposed the existence of wide transition states (TS), characterized by the transferring phosphoryl group adopting a meta-phosphate-like geometry with asymmetric bond distances to the nucleophilic and leaving oxygens. In support of this finding, kinetic experiments were conducted with Ca2+ ions at different temperatures and pH, which revealed a reduced entropy of activation and unique pH-dependence of the catalyzed reaction.

      Strengths:

      A combined application of simulation and experiments is a strength.

      Weaknesses:

      The conclusion that the enzyme-catalyzed reaction involves a wide transition state is not sufficiently clarified with some concerns about the determined free energy profiles compared to the experimental estimate. (See Recommendations for the authors.)

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors report results of QM/MM simulations and kinetic measurements for the phosphoryl-transfer step in adenylate kinase. The main assertion of the paper is that a wide transition state ensemble is a key concept in enzyme catalysis as a strategy to circumvent entropic barriers. This assertion is based on observation of a "structurally wide" set of energetically equivalent configurations that lie along the reaction coordinate in QM/MM simulations, together with kinetic measurements that suggest a decrease of the entropy of activation.

      Thank you for your feedback. The reviewer’s questions are answered below, hoping to clarify them.

      Strengths:

      The study combines theoretical calculations and supporting experiments.

      Weaknesses:

      The current paper hypothesizes a "wide" transition state ensemble as a catalytic strategy and key concept in enzyme catalysis. Overall, it is not clear the degree to which this hypothesis is fully supported by the data. The reasons are as follows:

      (1) Enzyme catalysis reflects a rate enhancement with respect to a baseline reaction in solution. In order to assert that something is part of a catalytic strategy of an enzyme, it would be necessary to demonstrate from simulations that the activation entropy for the baseline reaction is indeed greater and the transition state ensemble less "wide". Alternatively stated, when indicating there is a "wide transition state ensemble" for the enzyme system - one needs to indicate that is with respect to the non-enzymatic reaction. However, these simulations were not performed and the comparisons not demonstrated. The authors state "This chemical step would take about 7000 years without the enzyme" making it impossible to measure; nonetheless, the simulations of the nonenzymatic reaction would be fairly straight forward to perform in order to demonstrate this key concept that is central to the paper. Rather, the authors examine the reaction in the absence of a catalytically important Mg ion.

      Thank you for your thoughtful feedback. QM/MM calculations for uncatalysed phosphoryl-transfer reactions involving either diphosphates or triphosphates have been well documented in the literature showing narrow and symmetric TSE (Klan et al., JACS 2006, 128 (47) 15310-15323; Cui Wang et al., JPCB 2015, 119(9), 3720-3726). We added these references to the revised manuscript.

      (2) The observation of a "wide conformational ensemble" is not a quantitative measure of entropy. In order to make a meaningful computational prediction of the entropic contribution to the activation free energy, one would need to perform free energy simulations over a range of temperatures (for the enzymatic and non-enzymatic systems). Such simulations were not performed, and the entropy of activation was thus not quantified by the computational predictions. The authors instead use a wider TS ensemble as a proxy for larger entropy, and miss an opportunity to compare directly to the experimental measurements.

      Although we share the reviewers desire to quantify entropies from QM/MM simulations, we agree with discussions in the literature that calculating quantitative entropies from performing QM/MM simulations at different temperatures is not reliable. We therefore felt strongly to stay with a qualitative assessment of entropy differences from our simulations. As the reviewer highlighted, our study combines theoretical calculations and experiments. The entropy of activation is well estimated by the experiments from the experimental accuracy of these temperature-dependent changes in rate constants for the chemical step.  Our computational results agree well with the experimental results and were further validated in 2 rounds of reviews/revisions by additional different free energy calculation methods (MSMD and US), plus committor analysis.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      By conducting QM/MM free energy simulations, the authors aimed to characterize the mechanism and transition state for the phosphoryl transfer in adenylate kinase. The qualitative reliability of the QM/MM results has been supported by several interesting experimental kinetic studies. However, the interpretation of the QM/MM results is not well supported by the current calculations.

      Thank you for your feedback. We appreciate the recognition of our experimental validation but understand your concern about the interpretation of our QM/MM results. To address this, we answer the specific questions below and added clearer explanations of the computational approach, including its limitations. We also better aligned the QM/MM results with both experimental data and theoretical expectations to strengthen the overall interpretation.

      Strengths:

      The QM/MM free energy simulations have been carefully conducted. The accuracy of the semi-empirical QM/MM results was further supported by DFT/MM calculations, as well as qualitatively by several experimental studies.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) One key issue is the definition of the transition state ensemble. The authors appear to define this by simply considering structures that lie within a given free energy range from the barrier. However, this is not the rigorous definition of transition state ensemble, which should be defined in terms of committor distribution. This is not simply an issue of semantics, since only a rigorous definition allows a fair comparison between different cases - such as the transition state in an enzyme vs in solution, or with and without the metal ion. For a chemical reaction in a complex environment, it is also possible that many other variables (in addition to the breaking and forming P-O bonds) should be considered when one measures the diversity in the conformational ensemble.

      In the revised manuscript, the authors included committor analysis. However, the discussion of the result is very brief. In particular, if we use the common definition of the transition state ensemble (TSE) as those featuring the committor around 0.5, the reaction coordinate of the TSE would span a much narrower range than those listed in Table 1. This point should be carefully addressed.

      The reviewer is right, the TSE is rigorously defined in terms of the committor distribution. We actually calculated the committor distribution for the reaction with and without Mg. We now added the figure showing the committor distribution for both reactions (Figure 3 – supplement 9). We did not include these results before because the committor distribution histogram would need more points to have a more accurate shape, requiring a high computational cost. We followed the reviewer’s suggestion and updated table 1 with the values from the committor distribution analysis.

      (2) While the experimental observation that the activation entropy differs significantly with and without the Ca2+ ion is interesting, it is difficult to connect this result with the "wide" transition state ensemble observed in the QM/MM simulations so far. Even without considering the definition of the transition state ensemble mentioned above, it is unlikely that a broader range of P-O distances would explain the substantial difference in the activation entropy measured in the experiment. Since the difference is sufficiently large, it should be possible to compute the value by repeating the free energy simulations at different temperatures, which would lead to a much more direct evaluation of the QM/MM model/result and the interpretation.

      See our answer above about this point.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Major comments:

      One of the remaining issues with this revision is the assertion of the wide transition states in the presence of Mg2+ ion. When discussing the transition state of phosphoryl transfer reactions, it is important to consider their nature as involving both the cleavage and formation of P-O bonds. While these two events can occur in concert with a single transition state, many studies have shown that one event often precedes the other. Sometimes, there is a slight drop in free energy between the two events, forming a transient intermediate. However, due to its very short lifetime, this intermediate state may not be detectable experimentally. Depending on the sequence of events, the transition state or the transient intermediate may exhibit characteristics of a metaphosphate or phosphorane-like species. Based on the DFTB simulation results presented in the paper, it appears that the reaction forms a metaphosphate-like transition state. In the present reaction, since the two oxygen atoms involved in the reaction are very good leaving groups with similar reactivity, it is not surprising to observe the two events near the TS with very similar relative free energies, and therefore, the free energy profile can be very flat near the TS. This is consistent with the statement that "the transferring phosphate can be much closer to the leaving oxygen than the attacking oxygen and vice versa" on page 9. In my opinion, however, this should not be considered as a wide transition state but rather a consequence of the two events occurring very close to each other along the reaction coordinate. This distinction can be considered a semantic issue, and as long as the authors clearly discuss this issue and clarify the meaning of the TS ensemble, the reviewer is okay with that. In its current form, the statement of the wide TS ensemble may lead to a misleading interpretation of the reaction under study.

      An intermediate is clearly defined as a minimum in the free energy landscape. We see no evidence in any of your simulations of a minimum flanked by two transitions states, nor do we see any evidence in our NMR relaxation data or crystal structure ensemble refinement. We report our experimental and computational results, so that the reader can directly interpret the free energy landscapes for this system, avoiding semantics due to language ambiguity.

      Second, based on the kinetic study, the free energy of the catalytic reaction is approximately zero. The authors suggest that at pH near 7, the ADP exists as a roughly

      50-50 mixture between the singly protonated and fully charged states and consequently, the reaction free energies between the two scenarios cancel each other out. However, this argument is not correct. If [ADP(H)]/[ADP] is close to 1, the two reaction free energies, one with +6 kcal/mol and the other with -6 kcal/mol, imply that the protonation of the products (either ATP or AMP) requires ~12 kcal/mol (i.e., 9 pKa unit shift). Given the symmetric nature of the reaction and the similar pKa values between ATP, ADP versus AMP, such a large shift in the pKa of the product state is not expected, and for the calculated results to be accurate, the pKa shifts in the reactant state versus the product state must be opposite, with a total relative shift of 9 pKa units. This is difficult to understand given the nature of the reaction catalyzed by the adenylate kinase enzyme.

      We thank this reviewer for this question, which made us realize that we cannot compare the free energies of our QM/MD simulations with the experimentally determined ADP and ATP/AMP ratios. In the experiment we determine the entire pool of ADP and AMP/ATP bound to the enzyme, but could not distinguish if the protonated and or nonprotonated states are contributing to the measured observed rate constants (Kerns, S. et al.,(2015). In the present study, we now discovered that the nonprotonated forms have a lower activation barrier, but the protonated states also contribute to the overall reaction. Therefore, we removed this paragraph from our discussion.

      Minor comments:

      The difference in the free energy barrier determined by the MSMD and umbrella sampling is not negligible. Considering that umbrella sampling is commonly used in this type of research, the MSMD method appears to overestimate the barrier by more than 3 kcal/mol. Would the TS geometries obtained by umbrella sampling be comparable to those obtained by MSMD?

      This is an excellent suggestion, since the umbrella sampling is the more accurate method. The TSE from both methods are indeed comparable, and we added new figure panels about this results to Fig. 4.

      Figure 5 shows that the enthalpy of activation is similar for reactions with and without Ca2+. Do the authors expect the enthalpy of activation to decrease when Ca2+ is replaced by Mg2+ without a significant change in the entropy of activation? Any justification?

      In (Kerns, S. et al.,(2015) we had experimentally determined the dependence of the observed rate of the P-transfer on the nature of the divalent metal, with Mg2+ being by far superior to the other divalent metals. We proposed that this majorly is an effect on the enthalpy of activation, that other divalent metals provide poor orbital overlap, in agreement with published work on P-transfer reactions that show selectivity for a specific metal.

      Please provide proper citations for SHAKE and WHAM.

      The citations were added.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The authors did not really address in the revised manuscript the main points of the previous review, which included examination of non-enzymatic reaction (via simulation, not measurement) and quantification of the connection between the reported wide TS ensemble and the increase in entropy (by additional simulations). The authors should also add reference to the AM1/d-PhoT model of Nam et al. which is now discussed.

      QM/MM calculations for uncatazlysed phosphoryl-transfer reactions involving either diphosphates or triphosphates have been well documented in the literature showing narrow and symmetric TSE (Klahn et al., JACS 2006, 128 (47) 15310-15323; Cui Wang et al., JPCB 2015, 119(9), 3720-3726). We added these references to the revised manuscript.

      The reference to AM1/d-PhoT model was added.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      In the revised ms, the authors indeed addressed many of the points raised in the previous round of review. In addition to the issue of TSE and committor mentioned above, another point that needs to be carefully explained is the very significant difference between umbrella sampling results and those in Fig. 1C - especially for the case without Mg2+ - the difference of more than 20 kcal/mol is not something that can be ignored at a qualitative level.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out that the difference in free energy profiles between umbrella sampling (US) and MSMD, especially in the case without Mg<sup>2</sup>+ needs to be addressed.

      We believe that the key reason for this difference lies in the methodological approaches of these techniques.

      Umbrella sampling is an equilibrium enhanced sampling method, that allows for a balanced and thorough exploration of the free energy landscape, the MSMD is a non-equilibrium method and estimation depends of the averaging scheme used and the number of trajectories. In the present work, the free energy was estimated using an exponential average. This averaging scheme has a slow convergence, small variance and may overestimate the free energy barrier, specially if the barrier as seen in the absence of Mg is quite high. This factor could explain the significant difference between umbrella sampling and MSMD combined with Jarzynski’s equality.

      We have added new panels to Fig. 4 to compare the TSE from the more accurate umbrella sampling to the MSMD simulations, buttressing the validity of our original findings. We revised the manuscript discuss the differences between the MSMD and the umbrella sampling free energy profiles.

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      The work analyzes how centrosomes mature before cell division. A critical aspect is the accumulation of pericentriolar material (PCM) around the centrioles to build competent centrosomes that can organize the mitotic spindle. The present work builds on the idea that the accumulation of PCM is catalyzed either by the centrioles themselves (leading to a constant accumulation rate) or by enzymes activated by the PCM itself (leading to autocatalytic accumulation). These ideas are captured by a previous model derived for PCM accumulation in C. elegans (Zwicker et al, PNAS 2014) and are succinctly summarized by Eq. 1. The main addition of the present work is to allow the activated enzymes to diffuse in the cell, so they can also catalyze the accumulation of PCM in other centrosomes (captured by Eqs. 2-4). The authors show that this helps centrosomes to reach the same size, independent of potential initial mismatches.

      A strength of the paper is the simplicity of the equations, which are reduced to the bare minimum and thus allow a detailed inspection of the physical mechanism, e.g., using linear stability analysis. The possible shortcoming of this approach, namely that all equations assume that the diffusion of molecules is much faster than any of the reactive time scales, is addressed in Appendix 4. The authors show convincingly that their model compensates for initial size differences in centrosomes and leads to more similar final sizes. They carefully discuss parameter values used in their model, and they propose concrete experiments to test the theory. The model could thus stimulate additional experiments and help us understand how cells tightly control their centrosomes, which is crucial for faithful mitosis.

      Comments on revised version:

      The authors addressed my comments satisfactorily.

    2. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      The work analyzes how centrosomes mature before cell division. A critical aspect is the accumulation of pericentriolar material (PCM) around the centrioles to build competent centrosomes that can organize the mitotic spindle. The present work builds on the idea that the accumulation of PCM is catalyzed either by the centrioles themselves (leading to a constant accumulation rate) or by enzymes activated by the PCM itself (leading to autocatalytic accumulation). These ideas are captured by a previous model derived for PCM accumulation in C. elegans (ref. 8) and are succinctly summarized by Eq. 1. The main addition of the present work is to allow the activated enzymes to diffuse in the cell, so they can also catalyze the accumulation of PCM in other centrosomes (captured by Eqs. 2-4). The authors claim that this helps centrosomes to reach the same size, independent of potential initial mismatches.

      A strength of the paper is the simplicity of the equations, which are reduced to the bare minimum and thus allow a detailed inspection of the physical mechanism. One shortcoming of this approach is that all equations assume that the diffusion of molecules is much faster than any of the reactive time scales, although there is no experimental evidence for this.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s recognition of the strengths of our work. Indeed, the centrosome growth model incorporates multiple timescales corresponding to various reactions, and existing experimental data do not directly provide diffusion constants for the cytosolic proteins. However, we can estimate these diffusion constants using protein mass, based on the Stokes-Einstein relation, and compare the diffusion timescales with the reaction timescales obtained from FRAP analysis. For example, we estimate that the diffusion timescale for centrosomes separated by 5-10 micrometers is much smaller than the reaction timescales deduced from the FRAP experiments. Specifically, for SPD-5, a scaffold protein with a mass of ~150 kDa, the estimated diffusion constant is ~17 µm<sup>2</sup>/s, using the Stokes-Einstein relation and a reference diffusion constant of ~30 µm<sup>2</sup>/s for a 30 kDa GFP protein (reference: Bionumbers book). This results in a diffusion timescale of ~1 second for centrosomes 10 µm apart. In contrast, FRAP recovery timescales for SPD-5 in C. elegans embryos are on the order of several minutes, suggesting that scaffold protein binding reactions are much slower than diffusion. Therefore, a reaction-limited model is appropriate for studying PCM self-assembly during centrosome maturation. We have revised the manuscript to clarify this point and to include a discussion of the diffusion and reaction timescales.

      Spatially extended model with diffusion

      Both the reviewers have pointed out the importance of considering diffusion effects in centrosome size dynamics, and we agree that this is important to explore. We have developed a spatially extended 3D version of the centrosome growth model, incorporating stochastic reactions and diffusion (see Appendix 4). In this model, the system is divided into small reaction volumes (voxels), where reactions depend on local density, and diffusion is modeled as the transport of monomers/building blocks between voxels.

      We find that diffusion can alter the timescales of growth, particularly when the diffusion timescale is comparable to or slower than the reaction timescale, potentially mitigating size inequality by slowing down autocatalysis. However, the main conclusions of the catalytic growth model remain unchanged, showing robust size regulation independent of diffusion constant or centrosome separation (Figure 2—figure supplement 3). Hence, we focused on the effect of subunit diffusion on the autocatalytic growth model. We find that in the presence of diffusion, the size inequality reduces with increasing diffusion timescale, i.e., increasing distance between centrosomes and decreasing diffusion constant (Figure 2—figure supplement 4). However, the lack of robustness in size control in the autocatalyic growth model remains, i.e., the final size difference increases with increasing initial size difference. Notably, in the diffusion-limited regime (very small diffusion or large distances), the growth curve loses its sigmoidal shape, resembling the behavior in the non-autocatalytic limit (Figure 2). These findings are discussed in the revised manuscript.

      Another shortcoming of the paper is that it is not clear what species the authors are investigating and how general the model is. There are huge differences in centrosome maturation and the involved proteins between species. However, this is not mentioned in the abstract or introduction. Moreover, in the main body of the paper, the authors mention C. elegans on pages 2 and 3, but refer to Drosophila on page 4, switching back to C. elegans on page 5, and discuss Drosophila on page 6. This is confusing and looks as if they are cherry-picking elements from various species. The original model in ref. 8 was constructed for C. elegans and it is not clear whether the autocatalytic model is more general than that. In any case, a more thorough discussion of experimental evidence would be helpful.

      We believe one strength of our approach is its applicability across organisms. Our goal in comparing the theoretical model with experimental data from C. elegans and D.

      melanogaster is to demonstrate that the apparent qualitative differences in centrosome growth across species (see e.g., the extent of size scaling discussed in the section “Cytoplasmic pool depletion regulates centrosome size scaling with cell size”) may arise from the same underlying mechanisms in the theoretical model, albeit with different parameter values. We acknowledge differences in regulatory molecules between species, but the core pathways remain conserved see e.g. Raff, Trends in Cell Biology 2019, section: “Molecular Components of the Mitotic Centrosome Scaffold Appear to Have Been Conserved in Evolution from Worms to Humans”. In the revised manuscript, we have expanded the introduction to clarify this point and explain how our theory applies across species. We have also provided a clearer discussion of the experimental systems used throughout the manuscript and the available experimental evidence.

      The authors show convincingly that their model compensates for initial size differences in centrosomes and leads to more similar final sizes. These conclusions rely on numerical simulations, but it is not clear how the parameters listed in Table 1 were chosen and whether they are representative of the real situation. Since all presented models have many parameters, a detailed discussion on how the values were picked is indispensable. Without such a discussion, it is not clear how realistic the drawn conclusions are. Some of this could have been alleviated using a linear stability analysis of the ordinary differential equations from which one could have gotten insight into how the physical parameters affect the tendency to produce equal-sized centrosomes.

      Following the suggestion of the reviewer, we have revised the manuscript to add references and discussions justifying the choice of the parameter values used for the numerical simulations. These references and parameter choices can be found in Table 1 and Table 2, and are also discussed in relevant figure captions and within the manuscript text.

      We thank the reviewer for the excellent suggestion of including linear stability analysis of the ODE models of centrosome growth. We included linear stability analyses of the catalytic and autocatalytic growth models in Appendix 3. Analysis of the catalytic growth model reaffirms the robustness of size equality and the analysis of autocatalytic growth provides an approximate condition of size inequality. We have modified the revised manuscript to discuss these results.

      The authors use the fact that their model stabilizes centrosome size to argue that their model is superior to the previously published one, but I think that this conclusion is not necessarily justified by the presented data. The authors claim that "[...] none of the existing quantitative models can account for robustness in centrosome size equality in the presence of positive feedback." (page 1; similar sentence on page 2). This is not shown convincingly. In fact, ref 8. already addresses this problem (see Fig. 5 in ref. 8) to some extent.

      The linear stability analysis shown in Fig 5 in ref 8 (Zwicker et al, PNAS, 2014) shows that the solutions are stable around the fixed point and it was inferred from this result that Ostwald ripening can be suppressed by the catalytic activity of the centriole, therefore stabilizing the centrosomes (droplets) against coarsening by Ostwald ripening. But, if size discrepancy arises from the growth process (e.g., due to autocatalysis) the timescale of relaxation for such discrepancy is not clear from the above-mentioned result. We show (in figure 2 - figure supplement 3) that for any appreciable amount of positive feedback, the solution moves very slowly around the fixed point (almost like a line attractor) and cannot reach the fixed point in a biologically relevant timescale. Hence the model in ref 8 does not provide a robust mechanism for size control in the presence of autocatalytic growth. We have added this discussion in the Discussion section.

      More importantly, the conclusion seems to largely be based on the analysis shown in Fig. 2A, but the parameters going into this figure are not clear (see the previous paragraph). In particular, the initial size discrepancy of 0.1 µm^3 seems quite large, since it translates to a sphere of a radius of 300 nm. A similarly large initial discrepancy is used on page 3 without any justification. Since the original model itself already showed size stability, a careful quantitative comparison would be necessary.

      We thank the reviewer for the valuable suggestions. The parameters used in Fig. 2A are listed in Table 1 with corresponding references, and we used the parameter values from Zwicker et al. (2014) for rate constants and concentrations.

      The issue of initial size differences between centrosomes is important, but quantitative data on this are not readily available for C. elegans and Drosophila. Centrosomes may differ initially due to disparities in the amount and incorporation rate of PCM between the mother and daughter centrioles. Based on available images and videos (Cabral et al, Dev. Cell, 2019, DOI: https://doi.org/10.1016/j.devcel.2019.06.004), we estimated an initial radius of ~0.5 μm for centrosomes. Accounting for a 5% radius difference would lead to a volume difference of ~0.1 μm<sup>3</sup>, which was used in our analysis (Fig. 2A). These differences likely arise from distinct growth conditions of centrosomes containing different centrioles (older mother and newer daughter).

      More importantly, we emphasize that the initial size difference does not qualitatively alter the results presented in Figure 2. We agree that a quantitative analysis will further clarify our conclusions, and we have revised the manuscript accordingly. For example, Figure 2—figure supplement 3 provides a detailed analysis of how the final centrosome size depends on initial size differences across various parameter values. Additionally, Appendix 3 now includes analytical estimates of the onset of size inequality as a function of these parameters.

      The analysis of the size discrepancy relies on stochastic simulations (e.g., mentioned on pages 2 and 4), but all presented equations are deterministic. It's unclear what assumptions go into these stochastic equations, and how they are analyzed or simulated. Most importantly, the noise strength (presumably linked to the number of components) needs to be mentioned. How is this noise strength determined? What are the arguments for this choice? This is particularly crucial since the authors quote quantitative results (e.g., "a negligible difference in steady-state size (∼ 2% of mean size)" on page 4).

      As described in the Methods, we used the exact Gillespie method (Gillespie, JPC, 1977) to simulate the evolution of the stochastic trajectories of the systems, corresponding to the deterministic growth and reaction kinetics outlined in the manuscript. We've expanded the Methods to include further details on the stochastic simulations and refer to Appendix 1, where we describe the chemical master equations governing autocatalytic growth..

      The noise strength (fluctuations about the mean size of centrosome) does depend on the total monomer concentration (the pool size), and this may affect size inequality. Similar values of the total monomer concentration were used in the catalytic (0.04 uM) and autocatalytic growth (0.33 uM) simulations. These values for the pool size are similar to previous studies (Zwicker et al, PNAS, 2012) and have been optimized to obtain a good fit with experimental growth curves from C. elegans embryo data.

      To present more quantitative results, we have revised our manuscript to add data showing the effect of pool size on centrosome size inequality (Figure 3 - figure supplement 2). We find the size inequality in catalytic growth to increase with decreasing pool size as the origin of this inequality is the stochastic fluctuation in individual centrosome size. The size inequality (ratio of dv/<V>) in the autocatalytic growth does not depend (strongly) on the pool size (dv and <V> both increase similarly with pool size).

      Moreover, the two sets of testable predictions that are offered at the end of the paper are not very illuminative: The first set of predictions, namely that the model would anticipate an "increase in centrosome size with increasing enzyme concentration, the ability to modify the shape of the sigmoidal growth curve, and the manipulation of centrosome size scaling patterns by perturbing growth rate constants or enzyme concentrations.", are so general that they apply to all models describing centrosome growth. Consequently, these observations do not set the shared enzyme pool apart and are thus not useful to discriminate between models. The second part of the first set of predictions about shifting "size scaling" is potentially more interesting, although I could not discern whether "size scaling" referred to scaling with cell size, total amount of material, or enzymatic activity at the centrioles. The second prediction is potentially also interesting and could be checked directly by analyzing published data of the original model (see Fig. 5 of ref. 8). It is unclear to me why the authors did not attempt this.

      In response to the reviewers' valuable feedback, we have revised the manuscript to include results on potential methods for distinguishing catalytic growth from autocatalytic growth. Since the growth dynamics of a single centrosome do not significantly differ between these two models, it is necessary to experimentally examine the growth dynamics of a centrosome pair under various initial size perturbations. In Figure 3-figure supplement 2, we present theoretical predictions for both catalytic and autocatalytic growth models, illustrating the correlation between initial and final sizes after maturation. The figure demonstrates that the initial size difference and final size difference should be correlated only in the autocatalytic growth and the relative size inequality decreases with increasing subunit pool size in catalytic growth while remains almost unchanged in autocatalytic growth. These predictions can be experimentally examined by inducing varying centrosome sizes at the early stage of maturation for different expression levels of the scaffold former proteins.

      A second experimentally testable feature of the catalytic growth model involves sharing of the enzyme between both centrosomes. This could be tested through immunofluorescent staining of the kinase or by constructing a FRET reporter for PLK1 activity, where it can be studied if the active form of the PLK1 is found in the cytoplasm around the centrosomes indicating a shared pool of active enzyme. Additionally, photoactivated localization microscopy could be employed, where fluorescently tagged enzyme can be selectively photoactivated in one centrosome and intensity can be measured at the other centrosome to find the extent of enzyme sharing between the centrosomes.

      We also discuss shifts in centrosome size scaling behavior with cell size by varying parameters of the catalytic growth model (Fig 4). While quantitative analysis of size scaling in Drosophila is currently unavailable, such an investigation could enable us to distinguish catalytic growth mode with other models. We have included this point in the Discussion section.

      “The second prediction is potentially also interesting …” We assume the reviewer is referencing the scenario in Zwicker et al. (ref 8), where differences in centriole activity lead to unequal centrosome sizes. The data in that study represent a case of centrosome growth with variable centriole activity, resulting in size differences in both autocatalytic and catalytic growth models. This differs from our proposed experiment, where we induce unequal centrosome sizes without modifying centriole activity. We have now revised the text to clarify this distinction.

      Taken together, I think the shared enzyme pool is an interesting idea, but the experimental evidence for it is currently lacking. Moreover, the model seems to make little testable predictions that differ from previous models.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s interest in the core idea of our work. As mentioned earlier, we have improved the clarity in model predictions in the revised discussion section. Unfortunately, the lack of publicly available experimental data limits our ability to provide more direct experimental evidence. However, we are hopeful that our theoretical model will inspire future experiments to test these model predictions.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this paper, Banerjee & Banerjee argue that a solely autocatalytic assembly model of the centrosome leads to size inequality. The authors instead propose a catalytic growth model with a shared enzyme pool. Using this model, the authors predict that size control is enzyme-mediate and are able to reproduce various experimental results such as centrosome size scaling with cell size and centrosome growth curves in C. elegans.

      The paper contains interesting results and is well-written and easy to follow/understand.

      We are delighted that the reviewer finds our work interesting, and we appreciate the thoughtful suggestions provided. In response, we have revised the text and figures to incorporate these recommendations. Below, we address each of the reviewer’s comments point by point:

      Suggestions:

      ● In the Introduction, when the authors mention that their "theory is based on recent experiments uncovering the interactions of the molecular components of centrosome assembly" it would be useful to mention what particular interactions these are.

      As the reviewer suggested, we have modified the introduction section to add the experimental observations upon which we build our model.

      ● In the Results and Discussion sections, the authors note various similarities and differences between what is known regarding centrosome formation in C. elegan and Drosophila. It would have been helpful to already make such distinctions in the Introduction (where some phenomena that may be C. elegans specific are implied to hold centrosomes universally). It would also be helpful to include more comments for the possible implications for other systems in which centrosomes have been studied, such as human, Zebrafish, and Xenopus.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We have modified the Introduction to motivate the comparative study of centrosome growth in different organisms and draw relevant connections to centrosome growth in other commonly studied organisms like Zebrafish and Xenopus.

      ● For Fig 1.C, the two axes are very close to being the same but are not. It makes the graph a little bit more difficult to interpret than if they were actually the same or distinctly different. It would be more useful to have them on the same scale and just have a legend.

      We have modified the Figure 1C in the revised manuscript. The plot now shows the growth of a single and a pair of centrosomes both on the same y-axis scale.

      ● The authors refer to Equation 1 as resulting from an "active liquid-liquid phase separation", but it is unclear what that means in this context because the rheology of the centrosome does not appear to be relevant.

      We used the term “active liquid-liquid phase separation” simply to refer to a previous model proposed by Zwicker et al (PNAS, 2014) where the underlying process of growth results from liquid-liquid phase separation. We agree with the reviewer that the rheological property of the centrosome is not very relevant in our discussions and we have thus removed the sentence from the revised manuscript to avoid any confusion.

      ● The authors reject the non-cooperative limit of Eq 1 because, even though it leads to size control, it does not give sigmoidal dynamics (Figure 2B). While I appreciate that this is just meant to be illustrative, I still find it to be a weak argument because I would guess a number of different minor tweaks to the model might keep size control while inducing sigmoidal dynamics, such as size-dependent addition of loss rates (which could be due to reactions happen on the surface of the centrosome instead of in its bulk, for example). Is my intuition incorrect? Is there an alternative reason to reject such possible modifications?

      The reviewer raises an interesting point here. However, we disagree with the idea that minor adjustments to the model can produce sigmoidal growth curves while still maintaining size control. In the absence of an external, time-dependent increase in building block concentration (which would lead to an increasing growth rate), achieving sigmoidal growth requires a positive feedback mechanism in the growth rate. This positive feedback alone could introduce size inequality unless shared equally between the centrosomes, as it is in our model of catalytic growth in a shared enzyme pool. The proposed modification involving size-dependent addition or loss rates due to surface assembly/disassembly may result in unequal sizes precisely because of this positive feedback. A similar example is provided in Appendix 1, where assembly and disassembly across the pericentriolic material volume lead to sigmoidal growth but also generate significant size inequality and lack of robustness in size control.

      ● While the inset of Figure 3D is visually convincing, it would be good to include a statistical test for completeness.

      Following the reviewer’s suggestion, we present a statistical analysis in Figure 3 - Figure supplement 2 in the modified manuscript to enhance clarity. We show that the size difference values are uncorrelated (Pearson’s correlation coefficient ~ 0) with the initial size difference indicating the robustness of the size regulation mechanism.

      ● The authors note that the pulse in active enzyme in their model is reminiscent of the Polo kinase pulse observed in Drosophila. Can the authors use these published experimental results to more tightly constrain what parameter regime in their model would be relevant for Drosophila? Can the authors make predictions of how this pulse might vary in other systems such as C. elegans?

      Thank you for the insightful suggestion regarding the use of pulse dynamics in experiments to better constrain the model’s parameter regime. In our revised manuscript, we attempted this analysis; however, the data from Wong et al. (EMBO 2022) for Drosophila are presented as normalized intensity in arbitrary units, rather than as quantitative measures of centrosome size or Polo enzyme concentration. This lack of quantitative data limits our ability to benchmark the model beyond capturing qualitative trends. We thus believe that quantitative measurements of centrosome size and enzyme concentration are necessary to achieve a tighter alignment between model predictions and biological data.

      We discuss the enzyme dynamics in C. elegans in the revised manuscript. We find the enzyme dynamics corresponding to the fitted growth curves of C. elegans centrosomes are distinctly different from the ones observed in Drosophila. Instead of the pulse-like feature, we find a step-like increase in (cytosolic) active enzyme concentration.

      ● The authors mention that the shared enzyme pool is likely not diffusion-limited in C. elegans embryos, but this might change in larger embryos such as Drosophila or Xenopus. It would be interesting for the authors to include a more in-depth discussion of when diffusion will or will not matter, and what the consequence of being in a diffusion-limit regime might be.

      Both the reviewers have pointed out the importance of considering diffusion effects in centrosome size dynamics, and we agree that this is important to explore. We have developed a spatially extended 3D version of the centrosome growth model, incorporating stochastic reactions and diffusion (see Appendix 4). In this model, the system is divided into small reaction volumes (voxels), where reactions depend on local density, and diffusion is modeled as the transport of monomers/building blocks between voxels.

      We find that diffusion can alter the timescales of growth, particularly when the diffusion timescale is comparable to or slower than the reaction timescale, potentially mitigating size inequality by slowing down autocatalysis. However, the main conclusions of the catalytic growth model remain unchanged, showing robust size regulation independent of diffusion constant or centrosome separation (Figure 2—figure supplement 3). Hence, we focused on the effect of subunit diffusion on the autocatalytic growth model. We find that in the presence of diffusion, the size inequality reduces with increasing diffusion timescale, i.e., increasing distance between centrosomes and decreasing diffusion constant (Figure 2—figure supplement 4). However, the lack of robustness in size control in the autocatalyic growth model remains, i.e., the final size difference increases with increasing initial size difference. Notably, in the diffusion-limited regime (very small diffusion or large distances), the growth curve loses its sigmoidal shape, resembling the behavior in the non-autocatalytic limit (Figure 2). These findings are discussed in the revised manuscript.

      ● The authors state "Firstly, our model posits the sharing of the enzyme between both centrosomes. This hypothesis can potentially be experimentally tested through immunofluorescent staining of the kinase or by constructing FRET reporter of PLK1 activity." I don't understand how such experiments would be helpful for determining if enzymes are shared between the two centrosomes. It would be helpful for the authors to elaborate.

      Our results indicate the necessity of the centrosome-activated enzyme to be shared for the robust regulation of centrosome size equality. If a FRET reporter of the active form of the enzyme (e.g., PLK1) can be constructed then the localization of the active form of the enzyme may be determined in the cytosol. We propose this based on reports of studying PLK activities in subcellular compartments using FRET as described in Allen & Zhang, BBRC (2006). Such experiments will be a direct proof of the shared enzyme pool. Following the reviewer’s suggestion, we have modified the description of the FRET based possible experimental test for the shared enzyme pool hypothesis in the revised manuscript.

      Additionally, we have added another possible experimental test based on photoactivated localization microscopy (PALM), where tagged enzyme can be selectively photoactivated in one centrosome and intensity measured at the other centrosome to indicate whether the enzyme is shared between the centrosomes.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      The manuscript needs to clarify better what species the model describes, how alternative models were rejected, and how the parameters were chosen.

      In the revised manuscript, we have connect the chemical species in our model to those documented in organisms like Drosophila and C. elegans. This connection is detailed in the main text under the Catalytic Growth Model section and summarized in Table 2. We discuss alternative models and our reasons for excluding them in the first results section on autocatalytic growth, with additional details provided in Appendix 1 and the accompanying supplementary figures. The selection of model parameters is addressed in the main text and methods, with references listed in Table 1. We believe that these revisions, along with our point-by-point responses to reviewer comments, comprehensively address all reviewer concerns.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I think the style and structure of the paper could be improved on at least two accounts:

      (1) What's the role of the last section ("Multi-component centrosome model reveals the utility of shared catalysis on centrosome size control.")? It seems to simply add another component, keeping the essential structure of the model untouched. Not surprisingly, the qualitative features of the model are preserved and quantitative features are not discussed anyway.

      This model provides a more realistic description of centrosome growth by incorporating the dynamics of the two primary scaffold-forming subunits and their interactions with an enzyme. It is based on the observation that the major interaction pathways among centrosome components are conserved across many organisms (see Raff, Trends in Cell Biology, 2019 and Table 2), typically involving two scaffold-forming proteins and one enzyme that mediates positive feedback between them. These pathways may involve homologous proteins in different species.

      This model allows us to validate the experimentally observed spatial spread of the two subunits, Cnn and Spd-2, in Drosophila. Additionally, we used it to investigate the impact of relaxing the assumption of a shared enzyme pool on size control. Although similar insights could be obtained using a single-component model, the two-component model offers a more biologically relevant framework. We have highlighted these points in the revised manuscript to ensure clarity.

      (2 ) The very long discussion section is not very helpful. First, it mostly reiterates points already made in the main text. Second, it makes arguments for the choice of modeling (top left column of page 8), which probably should have been made when introducing the model. Third, it introduces new results (lower left column of page 8), which should probably be moved to the main text. Fourth, the interpretation of the model in light of the known biochemistry is useful and should probably be expanded although I think it would be crucial to keep information from different organisms clearly separate (this last point actually holds for the entire manuscript).

      We thank the reviewer for the feedback. We have modified the discussion section to focus more on the interpretation of the results, model predictions and future outlook with possible experiments to validate crucial aspects of the model. We have moved most of the justifications to the main text model description.

      Here are a few additional minor points:

      * page 1: Typo "for for" → "for"

      * Page 8: Typo "to to" → "to"

      We thank the reviewer for the useful recommendations. We have corrected all the typos in the revised manuscript.

      * Why can diffusion be neglected in Eq. 1? This is discussed only very vaguely in the main text (on page 3). Strangely, there is some discussion of this crucial initial step in the discussion section, although the diffusion time of PLK1 is compared to the centrosome growth time there and not the more relevant enzyme-mediate conversion rate or enzyme deactivation rate.

      We now discuss the justification of neglecting diffusion while motivating the model. We have added a more detailed discussion in the Methods section. We estimate the timescale of diffusion for the scaffold formers and the enzyme and compare them with the turnover timescales of the respective proteins Spd-2, Cnn and Polo. We find the proteins to diffuse fast compared to their FRAP recovery timescales indicating reaction timescales to be slower than the timescales of diffusion. Nevertheless, following the reviewer’s suggestion, we have also investigated the effect of diffusion on the growth process in Appendix 4.

      * Page 3: The comparison k_0^+ ≫ k_1^+ is meaningless without specifying the number of subunits n. I even doubt that this condition is the correct one since even if k_0^+ is two orders of magnitude larger than k_1^+, the autocatalytic term can dominate if there are many subunits.

      We thank the reviewer for the insightful comment on the comparison between the growth rates k^+_0 and k^+_1. Indeed, the pool size matters and we have now included a linear stability analysis of the autocatalytic growth equations in Appendix 3 to estimate the condition for size inequality. We have commented on these new findings in the revised manuscript.

      * The Eqs. 2-4 are difficult to follow in my mind. For instance, it is not clear why the variables N_av and N_av^E are introduced when they evidently are equivalent to S_1 and E. It would also help to explicitly mention that V_c is the cell volume. Moreover, do these equations contain any centriolar activity? If so, I could not understand what term mediates this. If not, it might be good to mention this explicitly.

      Following the reviewer’s suggestion, we have modified the equations 2-4 and added the definition of V_c to enhance clarity in the revised manuscript. The centriole activity is given by k^+ in the catalytic model. We now explicitly mention it.

      * Page 4: The observed peak of active enzyme (Fig 3C) is compared to experimental observation of a PLK1 peak at centrosomes in Drosophila (ref. 28). However, if I understand correctly, the peak in the model refers to active enzyme in the entire cell (and the point of the model is that this enzymatic pool is shared everywhere), whereas the experimental measurement quantified the amount of PLK1 at the centrosome (and not the activity of the enzyme). How are the quantity in the model related to the experimental measurements?

      The reviewer is correct in pointing out the difference between the quantities calculated from our model and those measured in the experiment by Wong et al. We have clarified this point in the revised manuscript. We hypothesize that if, in future experiments, the active (phosphorylated) polo can be observed by using a possible FRET reporter of activity then the cytosolic pulse can be observed too. We discuss this point in the revised manuscript.

      * Page 6: The asymmetry due to differences in centriolar activity is apparently been done for both models (Eq. 1 and Eqs. 2-4), referring to a parameter k_0^+ in both cases. How does this parameter enter in the latter model? More generally, I don't really understand the difference in the two rows in Fig. 5 - is the top row referring to growth driven by centriolar activity while the lower row refers to pure autocatalytic growth? If so, what about the hybrid model where both mechanisms enter? This is particularly relevant, since ref. 8 claims that such a hybrid model explains growth curves of asymmetric centrosomes quantitatively. Along these lines, the analysis of asymmetric growth is quite vague and at most qualitative. Can the models also explain differential growth quantitatively?

      We believe the reviewer’s comment on centrosome size asymmetry may stem from a lack of clarity in our initial explanation. In this section, as shown in Figure 5, we compare the full autocatalytic model (where both k_0^+ and k_1^+ are non-zero) with the catalytic model. The confusion might have arisen due to an unclear definition of centriolar activity in the catalytic growth model, which we have clarified in the revised manuscript. Specifically, we use k+ in the catalytic model and k0+ in the autocatalytic model as indicators of centriolar activity.

      Our findings quantitatively demonstrate that variations in centriole activity can robustly drive size asymmetry in catalytic growth, independent of initial size differences. However, in autocatalytic growth, increased initial size differences make the system more vulnerable to a loss of regulation, as positive feedback can amplify these differences, ultimately influencing the final size asymmetry. Our results do not contradict Zwicker et al. (ref 8); rather, they complement it. We show that size asymmetry in autocatalytic growth is governed by both centriole activity and positive feedback, highlighting that centriole activity alone cannot robustly regulate centrosome size asymmetry within this framework.

      * The code for performing the simulations does not seem to be available

      We have now made the main codes available in a GitHub repository. Link: https://github.com/BanerjeeLab/Centrosome_growth_model

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary and Strengths:

      The very well-written manuscript by Lövestam et al. from the Scheres/Goedert groups entitled "Twelve phosphomimetic mutations induce the assembly of recombinant full-length human tau into paired helical filaments" demonstrates the in vitro production of the so-called paired helical filament Alzheimer's disease (AD) polymorph fold of tau amyloids through the introduction of 12 point mutations that attempt to mimic the disease-associated hyper-phosphorylation of tau. The presented work is very important because it enables disease-related scientific work, including seeded amyloid replication in cells, to be performed in vitro using recombinant-expressed tau protein.

      Weaknesses:

      The following points are asked to be addressed by the authors:

      (i) In the discussion it would be helpful to note the findings that in AD the chemical structure tau (including phosphorylation) is what defines the polymorph fold and not the buffer/cellular environment. It would be further interesting to discuss these findings in respect to the relationship between disease and structure. The presented findings suggest that due to a cellular/organismal alteration, such as aging or Abeta aggregation, tau is specifically hyper-phosphorylated which then leads to its aggregation into the paired helical filaments that are associated with AD.

      (ii) The conditions used for each assembly reaction are a bit hard to keep track of and somewhat ambiguous. In order to help the reader, I would suggest making a table to show conditions used for each type of assembly (including the diameter / throw of the orbital shaker) and the results (structural/biological) of those conditions. For example, presumably the authors did not have ThT in the samples used for cryo-EM but the methods section does not specify this. Also, the presence of trace NaCl is proposed as a possible cause for the CTE fold to appear in the 0N4R sample (page 4) but no explanation of why this particular sample would have more NaCl than the others. Furthermore, it appears that NaCl was actually used in the seeded assembly reactions that produced the PHF and not the CTE fold. This would seem to indicate the CTE structure of 0N4R-PAD12 is not actually induced by NaCl (like it was for tau297-391). In order for the reader to better understand the reproducibility of the polymorphs, it would be helpful to indicate in how many different conditions and how many replicates with new protein preparations each polymorph was observed (could be included in the same table)

      (iii) It is not clear how the authors calculate the percentage of each filament type. In Figure 1 it is stated "discarded solved particles (coloured) and discarded filaments in grey" which leaves the reviewer wondering what a "discarded solved particle" is and which filaments were discarded. From the main text one guesses that the latter is probably false positives from automated picking but if so, these should not be referred to as filaments. Also, are the percentages calculated for filaments or segments? In any case, it would be more helpful in such are report to know the best estimate of the ratio of identified filament types without confusing the reader with a measure of the quality of the picking algorithm. Please clarify. Also, a clarification is asked for the significance of the varying degrees of PHF and AD monomer filaments in the various assembly conditions. It could be expected that there is significant variability from sample to sample but it would be interesting to know if there has been any attempt to reproduce the samples to measure this variability. If not, it might be worth mentioning so that the % values are taking with the appropriate sized grain of salt. Finally, the representation of the data in Figure 1 would seem to imply that the 0N3R forms less or no monofilament AD fold because no cross-section is shown for this structure, however it is very similar to (or statistically the same as) the 1:1 mix of 0N3R:0N4R.

      (iv) The interpretation of the NMR data on soluble tau that the mutations on the second site are suppressing in part long range dynamic interaction around the aggregation-initiation site (FIA) is sound. It is in particular interesting to find that the mutations have a similar effect as the truncation at residue 391. An additional experiment using solvent PREs to elaborate on the solvent exposed sequence-resolved electrostatic potential and the intra-molecular long range interactions would likely strengthen the interpretation significantly (Iwahara, for example, Yu et al, in JACS 2024). Figure 6D Figure supplement shows the NMR cross peak intensities between tau 151-391 and PAD12tau151-391. Overall the intensities of the PAD12 tau construct are more intense which could be interpreted with less conformational exchange between long range dynamic interactions. There are however several regions which do not show any intensity anymore when compared with the corresponding wildtype construct such as 259-262, 292-294 which should be discussed/explained.

      (v) Concerning the Cryo-EM data from the different hyper-phosphorylation mimics, it would seem that the authors could at least comment on the proportion of monofilament and paired-filaments even if they could not solve the structures. Nonetheless, based on their previous publications, one would also expect that they could show whether the non-twisted filaments are likely to have the same structure (by comparing the 2D classes to projections of non-twisted models). Also, it is very interesting to note that the twist could be so strongly controlled by the charge distribution on the non-structured regions (and may be also related to the work by Mezzenga on twist rate and buffer conditions). Is the result reported in Figure 2 a one-off case or was it also reproducible?

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      The authors set out to analyse the roles of the teichoic acids of Streptococcus pneumoniae in supporting the maintenance of the periplasmic region. Previous work has proposed the periplasm to be present in Gram positive bacteria and here advanced electron microscopy approach was used. This also showed a likely role for both wall and lipo-teichoic acids in maintaining the periplasm. Next, the authors use a metabolic labelling approach to analyse the teichoic acids. This is a clear strength as this method cannot be used for most other well studied organisms. The labelling was coupled with super-resolution microscopy to be able to map the teichoic acids at the subcellular level and a series of gel separation experiments to unravel the nature of the teichoic acids and the contribution of genes previously proposed to be required for their display. The manuscript could be an important addition to the field but there are a number of technical issues which somewhat undermine the conclusions drawn at the moment. These are shown below and should be addressed. More minor points are covered in the private Recommendations for Authors.

      Weaknesses to be addressed:

      (1) l. 144 Was there really only one sample that gave this resolution? Biological repeats of all experiments are required.

      (2) Fig. 4A. Is the pellet recovered at "low" speeds not just some of the membrane that would sediment at this speed with or without LTA? Can a control be done using an integral membrane protein and Western Blot? Using the tacL mutant would show the behaviour of membranes alone.

      (3) Fig. 4A. Using enzymatic digestion of the cell wall and then sedimentation will allow cell wall associated proteins (and other material) to become bound to the membranes and potentially effect sedimentation properties. This is what is in fact suggested by the authors (l. 1000, Fig. S6). In order to determine if the sedimentation properties observed are due to an artefact of the lysis conditions a physical breakage of the cells, using a French Press, should be carried out and then membranes purified by differential centrifugation. This is a standard, and well-established method (low-speed to remove debris and high-speed to sediment membranes) that has been used for S. pneumoniae over many years but would seem counter to the results in the current manuscript (for instance Hakenbeck, R. and Kohiyama, M. (1982), Purification of Penicillin-Binding Protein 3 from Streptococcus pneumoniae. European Journal of Biochemistry, 127: 231-236).

      (4) l. 303-305. The authors suggest that the observed LTA-like bands disappear in a pulse chase experiment (Fig. 6B). What is the difference between this and Fig. 5B, where the bands do not disappear? Fig. 5C is the WT and was only pulse labelled for 5 min and so would one not expect the LTA-like bands to disappear as in 6B?

      (5) Fig. 6B, l. 243-269 and l. 398-410. If, as stated, most of the LTA-like bands are actually precursor then how can the quantification of LTA stand as stated in the text? The "Titration of Cellular TA" section should be re-evaluated or removed? If you compare Fig. 6C WT extract incubated at RT and 110oC it seems like a large decrease in amount of material at the higher temperature. Thus, the WT has a lot of precursors in the membrane? This needs to be quantified.

      (6) L. 339-351, Fig. 6A. A single lane on a gel is not very convincing as to the role of LytR. Here, and throughout the manuscript, wherever statements concerning levels of material are made, quantification needs to be done over appropriate numbers of repeats and with densitometry data shown in SI.

      (7) 14. l. 385-391. Contrary to the statement in the text, the zwitterionic TA will have associated counterions that result in net neutrality. It will just have both -ve and +ve counterions in equal amounts (dependent on their valency), which doesn't matter if it is doing the job of balancing osmolarity (rather than charge).

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer 1:

      We thank the reviewer for the time and effort in providing very useful comments and suggestions for our manuscript.

      (1) The results do not support the conclusions. The main "selling point" as summarized in the title is that the apoptotic rate of zebrafish motorneurons during development is strikingly low (~2% ) as compared to the much higher estimate (~50%) by previous studies in other systems. The results used to support the conclusion are that only a small percentage (under 2%) of apoptotic cells were found over a large population at a variety of stages 24-120hpf. This is fundamentally flawed logic, as a short-time window measure of percentage cannot represent the percentage in the long term. For example, at any year under 1% of the human population dies, but over 100 years >99% of the starting group will have died. To find the real percentage of motorneurons that died, the motorneurons born at different times must be tracked over the long term or the new motorneuron birth rate must be estimated. A similar argument can be applied to the macrophage results. Here the authors probably want to discuss well-established mechanisms of apoptotic neuron clearance such as by glia and microglia cells.

      We chose the time window of 24-120 hpf based on the following two reasons: 1) Previous studies showed that although the time windows of motor neuron death vary in chick (E5-E10), mouse (E11.5-E15.5), rat (E15-E18), and human (11-25 weeks of gestation), the common feature of these time windows is that they are all the developmental periods when motor neurons contact with muscle cells. The contact between zebrafish motor neurons and muscle cells occurs before 72 hpf, which is included in our observation time window of 24-120 hpf. 2) Zebrafish complete hatching during 48-72 hpf, and most organs form before 72 hpf. More importantly, zebrafish start swimming around 72 hpf, indicating that motor neurons are fully functional at 72 hpf. Thus, we are confident that this 24-120 hpf time window covers the time window during which motor neurons undergo programmed cell death during zebrafish early development. We have added this information to the revised manuscript.

      We frequently used “early development” in this manuscript to describe our observation. However, we missed “early” in our title. We therefore have added this ket word of “early” in the title in the revised manuscript.

      Previous studies in zebrafish have shown that the production of spinal cord motor neurons largely ceases before 48 hpf, and then the motor neurons remain largely constant until adulthood (doi: 10.1016/j.celrep.2015.09.050; 10.1016/j.devcel.2013.04.012; 10.1007/BF00304606; 10.3389/fcell.2021.640414). Our observation time window covers the major motor neuron production process. Therefore, we believe that neurogenesis will not affect our findings and conclusions.

      We discussed the engulfment of dead motor neurons by other types of cells in the discussion section.

      (2) The transgenic line is perhaps the most meaningful contribution to the field as the work stands. However, the mnx1 promoter is well known for its non-specific activation - while the images suggest the authors' line is good, motor neuron markers should be used to validate the line. This is especially important for assessing this population later as mnx1 may be turned off in mature neurons.

      The mnx1 promoter has been widely used to label motor neurons in transgenic zebrafish. Previous studies have shown that most of the cells labeled in the mnx1 transgenic zebrafish are motor neurons. In this study, we observed that the neuronal cells in our sensor zebrafish formed green cell bodies inside of the spinal cord and extended to the muscle region, which is an important morphological feature of the motor neurons.

      Reviewer 2:

      We thank the reviewer for the time and effort in making very useful comments and suggestions for our manuscript.

      The FRET-based programmed cell death biosensor described in this manuscript could be very useful. However, the authors have not considered what is already known about the development and programmed cell death of zebrafish spinal motor neurons, and potential differences between motor neuron populations innervating different types of muscles in different vertebrate models. Without this context, the application of their new biosensor tool does not provide new insights into zebrafish motor neuron programmed cell death. In addition, the authors have not carried out controls to show the efficacy and specificity of their morpholinos. Nor have they described how they counted dying motor neurons, or why they chose the specific developmental time points they addressed. These issues are addressed more specifically below.

      (1) Lines 12-13: Previous studies in zebrafish showed death of identified spinal motor neurons.

      Line 103: In Figure 2A the cell body in the middle is that of identified motor neuron VaP. VaP death has previously been described in several publications. The cell body on the right of the same panel appears to belong to an interneuron whose axon can be seen extending off to the left in one of the rostrocaudal axon bundles that traverse the spinal cord. Higher-resolution imaging would clarify this.

      Lines 163-164: Is this the absolute number of motor neurons that died? How were the counts done? Were all the motor neurons in every segment counted? There are approximately 30 identifiable VaP motor neurons in each embryo and they have previously been reported to die between 24-36 hpf. So this analysis is likely capturing those cells.

      Our study examined the overall motor neuron apoptosis rather than a specific type of motor neuron death, so we did not emphasize the death of VaP motor neurons. We agree that the dead motor neurons observed in our manuscript contain VaP motor neurons. However, there were also other types of dead motor neurons observed in our study. The reasons are as follows: 1) VaP primary motor neurons die before 36 hpf, but our study found motor neuron cells died after 36 hpf and even at 84 hpf (revised Figure 4A). 2) The position of the VaP motor neuron is together with that of the CaP motor neuron, that is, at the caudal region of the motor neuron cluster. Although it’s rare, we did observe the death of motor neurons in the rostral region of the motor neuron cluster (revised Figure 2C). 3) There is only one or zero VaP motor neuron in each motor neuron cluster. Although our data showed that usually one motor neuron died in each motor neuron cluster, we did observe that sometimes more than one motor neuron died in the motor neuron cluster (revised Figure 2C). We included this information in the revised discussion.

      (2) Lines 82-83: It is published that mnx1 is expressed in at least one type of spinal interneuron derived from the same embryonic domain as motor neurons.

      The mnx1 promoter has been widely used to label motor neurons in transgenic zebrafish. Previous studies have shown that most of the cells labeled in the mnx1 transgenic zebrafish are motor neurons. In this study, we observed that the neuronal cells in our sensor zebrafish formed green cell bodies inside of the spinal cord and extended to the muscle region, which is an important morphological feature of the motor neurons.

      Furthermore, a few of those green cell bodies turned into blue apoptotic bodies inside the spinal cord and changed to blue axons in the muscle regions at the same time, which strongly suggests that those apoptotic neurons are not interneurons. Although the mnx1 promoter might have labeled some interneurons, this will not affect our major finding that only a small portion of motor neurons died during zebrafish early development.

      (3) Lines 161-162: Although this may be the major time window of neurogenesis, there are many more motor neurons in adults than in larvae. Neither of these references describes the increase in motor neuron numbers over this particular time span, so the rationale for this choice is unclear.

      Lines 168-171: It is known that later developing motor neurons are still being generated in the spinal cord at this time, suggesting that if there is a period of programmed cell death similar to that described in chick and mouse, it would likely occur later. In addition, most of the chick and mouse studies were performed on limb-innervating motor neurons, rather than the body wall muscle-innervating motor neurons examined here.

      Lines 237-238: Especially since new motor neurons are still being generated at this time.

      Previous studies have shown that the production of spinal cord motor neurons largely ceases before 48 hpf in zebrafish, and then the motor neurons remain largely constant until the adulthood (doi: 10.1016/j.celrep.2015.09.050; 10.1016/j.devcel.2013.04.012; 10.1007/BF00304606; 10.3389/fcell.2021.640414). Our observation time window covers the major motor neuron production process. Therefore, we believe that neurogenesis will not affect our data and conclusions.

      The death of motor neurons in limb-innervating motor neurons has been extensively studied in chicks and rodents, as it is easy to undergo operations such as amputation. However, previous studies have shown this dramatic motor neuron death does not only occur in limb-innervating motor neurons but also occurs in other spinal cord motor neurons (doi: 10.1006/dbio.1999.9413). In our manuscript, we studied the naturally occurring motor neuron death in the whole spinal cord during the early stage of zebrafish development.

      (4) Lines 184-187: Previous publications showed that death of VaP is independent of limitations in muscle innervation area, suggesting it is not coupled to muscle-derived neurotrophic factors.

      Lines 328-334: There have been many publications describing appropriate morpholino controls. The authors need to describe their controls and show that they know that the genes they were targeting were downregulated.

      For the morpholinos, we did not confirm the downregulation of the target genes. These morpholino-related data are a minor part of our manuscript and shall not affect our major findings. We have removed the neurotrophic factors and morpholino-related data in the revised manuscript.

    1. Author response:

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study demonstrates the significant role of secretory leukocyte protease inhibitor (SLPI) in regulating B. burgdorferi-induced periarticular inflammation in mice. They found that SLPI-deficient mice showed significantly higher B. burgdorferi infection burden in ankle joints compared to wild-type controls. This increased infection was accompanied by infiltration of neutrophils and macrophages in periarticular tissues, suggesting SLPI's role in immune regulation. The authors strengthened their findings by demonstrating a direct interaction between SLPI and B. burgdorferi through BASEHIT library screening and FACS analysis. Further investigation of SLPI as a target could lead to valuable clinical applications.

      The conclusions of this paper are mostly well supported by data, but two aspects need attention:

      (1) Cytokine Analysis:

      The serum cytokine/chemokine profile analysis appears without TNF-alpha data. Given TNF-alpha's established role in inflammatory responses, comparing its levels between wild-type and infected B. burgdorferi conditions would provide valuable insight into the inflammatory mechanism.

      (2) Sample Size Concerns:

      While the authors note limitations in obtaining Lyme disease patient samples, the control group is notably smaller than the patient group. This imbalance should either be addressed by including additional healthy controls or explicitly justified in the methodology section.

      We thank the reviewer for the careful review and positive comments.

      (1) We did look into the level of TNF-alpha in both WT and SLPI-/- mice with and without B. burgdorferi infection. At serum level, using ELISA, we did not observe any significant difference between all four groups. At gene expression level, using RT-qPCR on the tibiotarsal tissue, we also did not observe any significant differences. Our RT-qPCR result is consistent with the previous microarray study using the whole murine joint tissue (DOI: 10.4049/jimmunol.177.11.7930). The microarray study did not show significant changes in TNF-alpha level in C57BL/6 mice following B. burgdorferi infection. The above data suggest that TNF-alpha does not involve in SLPI-regulated immune responses in the murine tibiotarsal tissue following B. burgdorferi infection. A brief discussion will be added, and the above data will be provided as a supplemental figure in the revised manuscript.

      (2) We agree with the reviewer that the control group is smaller than the patient group. Among the archived samples that are available, the number of adult healthy controls are limited. It has been shown that the serum level of SLPI in healthy volunteers is in average about 40 ng/ml  (DOI: 10.3389/fimmu.2019.00664 and 10.1097/00003246-200005000-00003). The median level in the healthy control in our data was 38.92 ng/ml, which is comparable to the previous results. A brief discussion will be added in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This manuscript by Yu and coworkers investigates the potential role of Secretory leukocyte protease inhibitor (SLPI) in Lyme arthritis. They show that, after needle inoculation of the Lyme disease (LD) agent, B. burgdorferi, compared to wild type mice, a SLPI-deficient mouse suffers elevated bacterial burden, joint swelling and inflammation, pro-inflammatory cytokines in the joint, and levels of serum neutrophil elastase (NE). They suggest that SLPI levels of Lyme disease patients are diminished relative to healthy controls. Finally, they find that SLPI may interact directly the B. burgdorferi.

      Strengths:

      Many of these observations are interesting and the use of SLPI-deficient mice is useful (and has not previously been done).

      We appreciate the reviewer’s careful reading and positive comments.

      Weaknesses:

      (a) The known role of SLPI in dampening inflammation and inflammatory damage by inhibition of NE makes the enhanced inflammation in the joint of B. burgdorferi-infected mice a predicted result;

      We agree that the observation of the elevated NE level and the enhanced inflammation is theoretically likely. Indeed, that was the hypothesis that we explored, and often what is theoretically possible does not turn out to occur. In addition, despite the known contribution of neutrophils to the severity of murine Lyme arthritis, the importance of the neutrophil serine proteases and anti-protease has not been specifically studied, and neutrophils secrete many factors. Therefore, our data fill an important gap in the knowledge of murine Lyme arthritis development – and set the stage for the further exploration of this hypothesis in the genesis of human Lyme arthritis.

      (b) The potential contribution of the greater bacterial burden to the enhanced inflammation is not addressed;

      We agree with the reviewer’s viewpoint that the increased infection burden in the tibiotarsal tissue of the infected SLPI-/- mice could contribute to the enhanced inflammation. A brief discussion of this possibility will be added to the revised manuscript.

      (c) The relationship of SLPI binding by B. burgdorferi to the enhanced disease of SLPI-deficient mice is not clear; and

      We agree with the reviewer that we have not shown the importance of the SLPI-B. burgdorferi binding in the development of periarticular inflammation. It is an ongoing project in our lab to identify the SLPI binding partner in B. burgdorferi. Our hypothesis is that SLPI could bind and inhibit an unknown B. burgdorferi virulence factor that contributes to murine Lyme arthritis. We will include the above discussion in the revised manuscript.

      (d) Several methodological aspects of the study are unclear.

      We appreciate the critique and will modify the method session in greater detail in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors investigated the role of secretory leukocyte protease inhibitors (SLPI) in developing Lyme disease in mice infected with Borrelia burgdorferi. Using a combination of histological, gene expression, and flow cytometry analyses, they demonstrated significantly higher bacterial burden and elevated neutrophil and macrophage infiltration in SLPI-deficient mouse ankle joints. Furthermore, they also showed direct interaction of SLPI with B. burgdorferi, which likely depletes the local environment of SLPI and causes excessive protease activity. These results overall suggest ankle tissue inflammation in B. burgdorferi-infected mice is driven by unchecked protease activity.

      Strengths:

      Utilizing a comprehensive suite of techniques, this is the first study showing the importance of anti-protease-protease balance in the development of periarticular joint inflammation in Lyme disease.

      We greatly appreciate the reviewer’s careful reading and positive comments.

      Weaknesses:

      Due to the limited sample availability, the authors investigated the serum level of SLPI in both in Lyme arthritis patients and patients with earlier disease manifestations.

      We agree with the reviewer that it would be ideal to have more samples from Lyme arthritis patients. However, among the available archived samples, samples from Lyme arthritis patients are limited. For the samples from patients with single EM, the symptom persisted into 3-4 month after diagnosis, the same timeframe when arthritis is developed. We will add the above discussion in the revised manuscript.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) In Figure 2, for histological scoring, do they have similar n numbers?

      In panel B, 20 infected WT mice and 19 infected SLPI-/- mice were examined. In panel D, 13 infected WT and SLPI-/- mice were examined. Without infection, WT and SLPI-/- mice do not develop spontaneous arthritis. Due to the slow breeding of the SLPI-/- mice, a small number of uninfected control animals were used.

      (2) In Figure 3, for macrophage population analysis, maybe consider implementing Ly6G-negative gating strategy to prevent neutrophil contamination in macrophage population?

      We appreciate reviewer’s suggestion. We will analyze the data using the Ly6G-negative gating strategy and provide the result in a supplemental figure. We will compare the results using the two gating strategies in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) The investigators should address the possibility that much of the enhanced inflammatory features of infected SLPI-deficient mice are simply due to the higher bacterial load in the joint.

      We agree with the reviewer’s viewpoint that the increased infection burden in the tibiotarsal tissue of the infected SLPI-/- mice could contribute to the enhanced inflammation. A brief discussion of this possibility will be added to the revised manuscript.

      (2) Fig. 1. (A) There is no statistically significant difference in the bacterial load in the heart or skin, in contrast to the tibiotarsal joint. It would be of interest to know whether other tissues that are routinely sampled to assess the bacterial load, such as injection site, knee, and bladder, also harbored increased bacterial load in SLPI-deficient mice. (B) Heart and joint burden were measured at "21-28" days. The two time points should be analyzed separately rather than pooled.

      (A) We appreciate the reviewer’s suggestion. We agree that looking into the infection load in other tissues is helpful. However, studies into murine Lyme arthritis have been predominantly focused on tibiotarsal tissue, which displays the most consistent and prominent swelling that’s easy to observe and measure. Thus, we focused on the tibiotarsal joint in our study. (B) We collected the heart and joint tissue approximately 3-week post infection within a 3-day window based on the feasibility and logistics of the laboratory. Using “21-28 d”, we meant to describe between 21-24 days post infection. We apologize for the mislabeling and will correct it in the revised manuscript, stating approximately 3 weeks in the results, and defining approximately 3-weeks as between 21-24 days in the methods.

      (3) Fig. 2. (A) The same ambiguity as to the days post-infection as cited above in Point 2B exists in this figure. (B) Panel B: Caliper measurements to assess joint swelling should be utilized rather than visual scoring. (In addition, the legend should make clear that the black circles represent mock-infected mice.)

      (A) The histology scoring, and histopathology examination were performed at the same time as heart and joint tissue collection, approximately 3 weeks post infection within a 3-day window based on the feasibility and logistics of the laboratory. We apologize for the mislabeling and will correct it in the revised manuscript.  (B) We appreciate the reviewer’s suggestion. However, our extensive experience is that caliper measurement can alter the assessment of swelling by placing pressure on the joints and did not produce consistent results. Double blinded scoring was thus performed. Histopathology examination was performed by an independent pathologist and confirmed the histology score and provided additional measurements.

      (4) Fig. 3. (A) See Point 2B. (B) For Panels C-E, uninfected controls are lacking.

      We apologize for this omission. Uninfected controls will be provided in the revised manuscript.

      (5) Fig. 4. Fig. 4. Some LD subjects were sampled multiple times (5 samples from 3 subjects with Lyme arthritis; 13 samples from 4 subjects with EM), and samples from same individuals apparently are treated as biological replicates in the statistical analysis. In contrast, the 5 healthy controls were each sampled only once.

      We agree with the reviewer that the control group is smaller than the patient group. Among the archived samples that are available, the number of adult healthy controls are limited, and sampled once. We used these samples to establish the baseline level of SLPI in the serum. It has been shown that the serum level of SLPI in healthy volunteers is in average about 40 ng/ml  (DOI: 10.3389/fimmu.2019.00664 and 10.1097/00003246-200005000-00003). The median level in the healthy control in our data was 38.92 ng/ml, which is comparable to the previous results. A brief discussion will be added in the revised manuscript.

      (6) Fig. 5. (A) Panel A: does binding occur when intact bacteria are used? (B) Panels B, C: Were bacteria probed with PI to indicate binding likely to occur to surface? How many biological replicates were performed for each panel? Is "antibody control" a no SLPI control? What is the blue line?

      Actively growing B. burgdorferi were collected and used for binding assays. We do not permeabilize the bacteria for flow cytometry. Thus, all the binding detected occurs to the bacterial surface. Three biological replicates were performed for each panel. The antibody control is no SLPI control. For panel D, the bacteria were stained with Hoechst, which shows the morphology of bacteria. We apologize for the missing information. A complete and detailed description of Figure 5 will be provided in the revised manuscript. 

      (7) Sup Fig. 1. (A) Panel A: Was this experiment performed multiple times? I.e., how many biological replicates? (B) Panel B: Strain should be specified.

      The binding assay to B. burgdorferi B31A was performed two times. In panel B, B. burgdorferi B31A3 was used. We apologize for the missing information. A complete and detailed description will be provided in the revised manuscript. 

      (8) Fig. S2. It is not clear that the condition (20% serum) has any bactericidal activity, so the potential protective activity of SLPI cannot be determined. (Typical serum killing assays in the absence of specific antibody utilized 40% serum.)

      In Fig. S2, panel B, the first two bars (without SLPI, with 20% WT anti serum) showed around 40% viability. It indicates that the 20% WT anti serum has bactericidal activity. Serum was collected from B. burgdorferi-infected WT mice at 21 dpi, which should contain polyclonal antibody against B. burgdorferi.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      It was a pleasure to review! I congratulate the authors on this elegant study. I think the manuscript is very well-written and clearly conveys the research outcomes. I only have minor suggestions to improve the readability of the text.

      We greatly appreciate the reviewer’s recognition of our work.

      Line 92: Please briefly summarize the key results of the study at the end of the introduction section.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s suggestion. A brief summary will be added in the revised manuscript.

      Line 108: Why is the inflammation significantly occurred only in ankle joints of SLPI-I mice? Could you please provide a brief explanation?

      The inflammation may also happen in other joints the B. burgdorferi infected SLPI-/- mice, which has not been studied. The study into murine Lyme arthritis has been predominantly done in the tibiotarsal tissue, which displays the most prominent swelling that’s easy to observe and measure. Thus, we focused on the tibiotarsal joint in our study.

      Line 136: Please also include the gene names in Figure 3.

      We apologize for the omission. Gene names will be included in the revised manuscript.

      Line 181: Please briefly introduce BASEHIT. Why did you use this tool? What are the benefits?

      We appreciate the reviewer’s suggestion. We will provide more background information on BASEHIT in the revised manuscript.

    1. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this report, De Franceschi et al. purify components of the Cdv machinery in archaeon M. sedula and probe their interactions with membrane and with one-another in vitro using two main assays - liposome flotation and fluorescent imaging of encapsulated proteins. This has the potential to add to the field by showing how the order of protein recruitment seen in cells is related to the differential capacity of individual proteins to bind membranes when alone or when combined.

      Strengths:

      Using the floatation assay, they demonstrate that CdvA and CdvB bind liposomes when combined. While CdvB1 also binds liposomes under these conditions, in the floatation assay, CdvB2 lacking its C-terminus is not efficiently recruited to membranes unless CdvAB or CdvB1 are present. The authors then employ a clever liposome assay that generates chained spherical liposomes connected by thin membrane necks, which allows them to accurately control the buffer composition inside and outside of the liposome. With this, they show that all four proteins accumulate in necks of dumbbell-shaped liposomes that mimic the shape of constricting necks in cell division. Taken altogether, these data lead them to propose that Cdv proteins are sequentially recruited to the membrane as has also been suggested by in vivo studies of ESCRT-III dependent cell division in crenarchaea.

      Weaknesses:

      These experiments provide a good starting point for the in vitro study the interaction of Cdv system components with the membrane and their consecutive recruitment. However, several experimental controls are missing that complicate their ability to draw strong conclusions. Moreover, some results are inconsistent across the two main assays which make the findings difficult to interpret.

      (1) Missing controls.

      Various protein mixtures are assessed for their membrane-binding properties in different ways. However, it is difficult to interpret the effect of any specific protein combination, when the same experiment is not presented in a way that includes separate tests for all individual components. In this sense, the paper lacks important controls.

      For example, Fig 1C is missing the CdvB-only control. The authors remark that CdvB did not polymerise (data not shown) but do not comment on whether it binds membrane in their assays. In the introduction, Samson et al., 2011 is cited as a reference to show that CdvB does not bind membrane. However, here the authors are working with protein from a different organism in a different buffer, using a different membrane composition and a different assay. Given that so many variables are changing, it would be good to present how M. sedula CdvB behaves under these conditions.

      Similarly, there is no data showing how CdvB alone or CdvA alone behave in the dumbbell liposome assay. Without these controls, it's impossible to say whether CdvA recruits CdvB or the other way around.

      The manuscript would be much stronger if such data could be added.

      (2) Some of the discrepancies in the data generated using different assays are not discussed.

      The authors show that CdvB2∆C binds membrane and localizes to membrane necks in the dumbbell liposome assay, but no membrane binding is detected in the flotation assay. The discrepancy between these results further highlights the need for CdvB-only and CdvA-only controls.

      (3) Validation of the liposome assay.

      The experimental setup to create dumbbell-shaped liposomes seems great and is a clever novel approach pioneered by the team. Not only can the authors manipulate liposome shape, they also state that this allows them to accurately control the species present on the inside and outside of the liposome. Interpreting the results of the liposome assay, however, depends on the geometry being correct. To make this clearer, it would seem important to include controls to prove that all the protein imaged at membrane necks lie on the inside of liposomes. In the images in SFig3 there appears to be protein outside of the liposome. It would also be helpful to present data to show test whether the necks are open, as suggested in the paper, by using FRAP or some other related technique.

      (4) Quantification of results from the liposome assay.

      The paper would be strengthened by the inclusion of more quantitative data relating to the liposome assay. Firstly, only a single field of view is shown for each condition. Because of this, the reader cannot know whether this is a representative image, or an outlier? Can the authors do some quantification of the data to demonstrate this? The line scan profiles in the supplemental figures would be an example of this, but again in these Figures only a single image is analyzed.

      We would recommend that the authors present quantitative data to show the extent of co-localization at the necks in each case. They also need a metric to report instances in which protein is not seen at the neck, e.g. CdvB2 but not CdvB1 in Fig2I, which rules out a simple curvature preference for CdvB2 as stated in line 182.

      Secondly, the authors state that they see CdvB2∆C recruited to the membrane by CdvB1 (lines 184-187, Fig 2I). However, this simple conclusion is not borne out in the data. Inspecting the CdvB2∆C panels of Fig 2I, Fig3C, and Fig3D, CdvB2∆C signal can be seen at positions which don't colocalize with other proteins. The authors also observe CdvB2∆C localizing to membrane necks by itself (Fig 2E). Therefore, while CdvB1 and CdvB2∆C colocalize in the flotation assay, there is no strong evidence for CdvB2∆C recruitment by CdvB1 in dumbbells. This is further underscored by the observation that in the presented data, all Cdv proteins always appear to localize at dumbbell necks, irrespective of what other components are present inside the liposome. Although one nice control is presented (ZipA), this suggests that more work is required to be sure that the proteins are behaving properly in this assay. For example, if membrane binding surfaces of Cdv proteins are mutated, does this lead to the accumulation of proteins in the bulk of the liposome as expected?

      (5) Rings.

      The authors should comment on why they never observe large Cdv rings in their experiments. In crenarchaeal cell division, CdvA and CdvB have been observed to form large rings in the middle of the 1 micron cell, before constriction. Only in the later stages of division are the ESCRTs localized to the constricting neck, at a time when CdvA is no longer present in the ring. Therefore, if the in vitro assay used by the authors really recapitulated the biology, one would expect to see large CdvAB rings in Figs 1EF. This is ignored in the model. In the proposed model of ring assembly (line 252), CdvAB ring formation is mentioned, but authors do not discuss the fact that they do not observe CdvAB rings - only foci at membrane necks. The discussion section would benefit from the authors commenting on this.

      (6) Stoichiometry

      It is not clear why 100% of the visible CdvA and 100% of the the visible CdvB are shifted to the lipid fraction in 1C. Perhaps this is a matter of quantification. Can the authors comment on the stoichiometry here?

      (7) Significance of quantification of MBP-tagged filaments.

      Authors use tagging and removal of MBP as a convenient, controllable system to trigger polymerisation of various Cdv proteins. However, it is unclear what is the value and significance of reporting the width and length of the short linear filaments that are formed by the MBP-tagged proteins. Presumably they are artefactual assemblies generated by the presence of the tag? Similar Figure 2C doesn't seem a useful addition to the paper.

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      The authors conducted an fMRI study to investigate the neural effects of sustaining attention to areas of different sizes. Participants were instructed to attend to alphanumeric characters arranged in a circular array. The size of attention field was manipulated in four levels, ranging from small (18 deg) to large (162 deg). They used a model-based method to visualize attentional modulation in early visual cortex V1 to V3, and found spatially congruent modulations of the BOLD response, i.e., as the attended area increased in size, the neural modulation also increased in size in the visual cortex. They suggest that this result is a neural manifestation of the zoom-lens model of attention and that the model-based method can effectively reconstruct the neural modulation in the cortical space.

      The study is well-designed with sophisticated and comprehensive data analysis. The results are robust and show strong support for a well-known model of spatial attention, the zoom-lens model. Overall, I find the results interesting and useful for the field of visual attention research. I have questions about some aspects of the results and analysis as well as the bigger picture.

      (1) It appears that the modulation in V1 is weaker than V2 and V3 (Fig 2). In particular, the width modulation in V1 is not statistically significant (Fig 5). This result seems a bit unexpected. Given the known RF properties of neurons in these areas, in particular, smaller RF in V1, one might expect more spatially sensitive modulation in V1 than V2/V3. Some explanations and discussions would be helpful. Relatedly, one would also naturally wonder if this method can be applied to other extrastriate visual areas such as V4 and what the results look like.

      (2) I'm a bit confused about the angular error result. Fig 4 shows that the mean angular error is close to zero, but Fig 5 reports these values to be about 30-40 deg. Why the big discrepancy? Is it due to the latter reporting absolute errors? It seems reporting the overall bias is more useful than absolute value.

      (3) A significant effect is reported for amplitude in V3 (line 78), but the graph in Fig 5 shows hardly any difference. Please confirm the finding and also explain the directionality of the effect if there is indeed one.

      (4) The purpose of the temporal interval analysis is rather unclear. I assume it has to do with how much data is needed to recover the cortical modulation and hence how dynamic a signal the method can capture. While the results make sense (i.e., more data is better), there is no obvious conclusion and/or interpretation of its meaning.

      (5) I think it would be useful for the authors to make a more explicit connection to previous studies in this literature. In particular, two studies seem particularly relevant. First, how do the present results relate to those in Muller et al (2003, reference 37), which also found a zoom-lens type of neural effects. Second, how does the present method compare with spatial encoding model in Sprague & Serences (2013, reference 56), which also reconstructs the neural modulation of spatial attention. More discussions of these studies will help put the current study in the larger context.

      (6) Fig 4b, referenced on line 123, does not exist.

    1. Author response:

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      This a comprehensive study that sheds light on how Wag31 functions and localises in mycobacterial cells. A clear link to interactions with CL is shown using a combination of microscopy in combination with fusion fluorescent constructs, and lipid specific dyes. Furthermore, studies using mutant versions of Wag31 shed light on the functionalities of each domain in the protein. My concerns/suggestions for the manuscript are minor:

      (1) Ln 130. A better clarification/discussion is required here. It is clear that both depletion and overexpression have an effect on levels of various lipids, but subsequent descriptions show that they affect different classes of lipids.

      We thank the reviewer for the comments. We will improve Ln130 in the manuscript. The lipid classes that get impacted by the depletion of Wag31 vs overexpression are different. Wag31 is an adaptor protein that interacts with proteins of the ACCase complex (Meniche et al., 2014; Xu et al., 2014) that synthesize fatty acid precursors and regulate their activity (Habibi Arejan et al., 2022).

      The varied response to lipid homeostasis could be attributed to a change in the stoichiometry of these interactions with Wag31. While Wag31 depletion would prevent such interactions from occurring and might affect lipid synthesis that directly depends on Wag31-protein partner interactions, its overexpression would lead to promiscuous interactions and a change in the stoichiometry of native interactions, ultimately modulating lipid synthesis pathways.

      (2) The pulldown assays results are interesting, but links are tentative.

      The interactome of Wag31 was identified through the immunoprecipitation of Flag-tagged Wag31 complemented at an integrative locus in Wag31 mutant background to avoid overexpression artifacts. We used Msm::gfp expressing an integrative copy (at L5 locus) of FLAG-GFP as a control to subtract non-specific interactions. The experiment was performed in biological triplicates, and interactors that appeared in all replicates were selected for further analysis. Although we identified more than 100 interactors of Wag31, we analyzed only the top 25 hits, with a PSM cut-off ≥18 and unique peptides≥5. Additionally, two of Wag31's established interactors, AccD5 and Rne, were among the top five hits, thus validating our data.

      Though we agree that the interactions can either be direct or through a third partner, the fact that we obtained known interactors of Wag31 makes us believe these interactions are genuine. Moreover, we performed pulldown experiments for validation by mixing E. coli lysates expressing His-Wag31 full-length or truncated protein with M. smegmatis lysates expressing FLAG-tagged interacting proteins. The wash conditions used were quite stringent for these pull-down assays—the wash buffer contained 1% Triton X100, eliminating all non-specific and indirect interactions.  However, we agree that we cannot conclusively state that the interactions are direct without purifying the proteins and performing the experiment. We will describe this caveat in the revised manuscript. 

      (3) The authors may perhaps like to rephrase claims of effects lipid homeostasis, as my understanding is that lipid localisation rather than catabolism/breakdown is affected.

      In this manuscript, we are trying to convey that Wag31 is a spatiotemporal regulator of lipid metabolism. It is a peripheral protein that is hooked to the membrane via Cardiolipin and forms a scaffold at the poles, which helps localize several enzymes involved in lipid metabolism.

      Homeostasis is the process by which an organism maintains a steady-state of balance and stability in response to changes.  Depletion of Wag31 not only results in delocalisation of lipids in intracellular lipid inclusions but also leads to changes in the levels of various lipid classes. Advancement in the field of spatial biology underscores the importance of native localization of various biological molecules crucial for maintaining a steady-cell of the cell. Hence, we have used the word “homeostasis” to describe both the changes observed in lipid metabolism.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary

      Kapoor et. al. investigated the role of the mycobacterial protein Wag31 in lipid and peptidoglycan synthesis and sought to delineate the role of the N- and C- terminal domains of Wag31. They demonstrated that modulating Wag31 levels influences lipid homeostasis in M. smegmatis and cardiolipin (CL) localisation in cells. Wag31 was found to preferentially bind CL-containing liposomes, and deleting the N-terminus of the protein significantly decreased this interaction. Novel interactions between Wag31 and proteins involved in lipid metabolism and cell wall synthesis were identified, suggesting that Wag31 recruits proteins to the intracellular membrane domain by direct interaction.

      Strengths:

      (1) The importance of Wag31 in maintaining lipid homeostasis is supported by several lines of evidence.

      (2) The interaction between Wag31 and cardiolipin, and the role of the N-terminus in this interaction was convincingly demonstrated.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) MS experiments provide some evidence for novel protein-protein interactions. However, the pull-down experiments lack a valid negative control.

      We thank the reviewer for the comments. We will include a valid negative control in the experiment. We would choose ~2 mycobacterial proteins that are not a part of our interactome study and perform a similar pull-down experiment with them and a positive control (known interactor of Wag31).

      (2) The role of the N-terminus in the protein-protein interaction has not been ruled out.

      Previously, we attempted to express the N-terminal (1-60 aa) and the C-terminal (60-212 aa) proteins in various mycobacterial shuttle vectors to perform MS/MS experiments. Despite numerous efforts, neither was expressed with the N/C-terminal FLAG tag nor without any tag in episomal or integrative vectors due to the instability of the protein. Eventually, we successfully expressed the C-terminal Wag31 with an N and C-terminal hexa-His tag. However, this expression was not sufficient or stable enough for us to perform Ni affinity pull-down experiments for mass spectrometry.  The N-terminal of Wag31 could not be expressed in M. smegmatis even with N and C-terminal Hexa-His tags.

      To rule out the role of the N-terminal in mediating protein-protein interactions, we plan to attempt to express N-terminal of Wag31with N and C-terminal hexa-His tag in E. coli. If this clone successfully expresses in E. coli, we will perform pull-down experiments as described in Figure 7.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This manuscript describes the characterization of mycobacterial cytoskeleton protein Wag31, examining its role in orchestrating protein-lipid and protein-protein interactions essential for mycobacterial survival. The most significant finding is that Wag31, which directs polar elongation and maintains the intracellular membrane domain, was revealed to have membrane tethering capabilities.

      Strengths:

      The authors provided a detailed analysis of Wag31 domain architecture, revealing distinct functional roles: the N-terminal domain facilitates lipid binding and membrane tethering, while the C-terminal domain mediates protein-protein interactions. Overall, this study offers a robust and new understanding of Wag31 function.

      Weaknesses:

      The following major concerns should be addressed.

      • Authors use 10-N-Nonyl-acridine orange (NAO) as a marker for cardiolipin localization. However, given that NAO is known to bind to various anionic phospholipids, how do the authors know that what they are seeing is specifically visualizing cardiolipin and not a different anionic phospholipid? For example, phosphatidylinositol is another abundant anionic phospholipid in mycobacterial plasma membrane.

      We thank the reviewer for the comments. Despite its promiscuous binding to other anionic phospholipids, 10-N-Nonyl-acridine orange is widely used to stain Cardiolipin and determine its localisation in bacterial cells and mitochondria of eukaryotes (Garcia Fernandez et al., 2004; Mileykovskaya & Dowhan, 2000; Renner & Weibel, 2011).  This is because it has a stronger affinity for Cardiolipin than other anionic phospholipids with the affinity constant being 2 × 10<sup>6</sup> M<sup>−1</sup> for Cardiolipin association and 7 × 10<sup>4</sup> M<sup>−1</sup> for that of phosphatidylserine and phosphatidylinositol association (Petit et al., 1992). Additionally, there is not yet another stain available for detecting Cardiolipin. Our protein-lipid binding assays suggest that Wag31 preferentially binds to Cardiolipin over other anionic phospholipids (Fig. 4b), hence it is likely that the majority of redistribution of NAO fluorescence that we observe might be contributed by Cardiolipin mislocalization due to altered Wag31 levels, with smaller degree of NAO redistribution intensity coming indirectly from other anionic phospholipids displaced from the membrane due to the loss of membrane integrity and cell shape changes due to Wag31.

      • Authors' data show that the N-terminal region of Wag31 is important for membrane tethering. The authors' data also show that the N-terminal region is important for sustaining mycobacterial morphology. However, the authors' statement in Line 256 "These results highlight the importance of tethering for sustaining mycobacterial morphology and survival" requires additional proof. It remains possible that the N-terminal region has another unknown activity, and this yet-unknown activity rather than the membrane tethering activity drives the morphological maintenance. Similarly, the N-terminal region is important for lipid homeostasis, but the statement in Line 270, "the maintenance of lipid homeostasis by Wag31 is a consequence of its tethering activity" requires additional proof. The authors should tone down these overstatements or provide additional data to support their claims.

      We agree with the reviewer that there exists a possibility for another function of the N-terminal that may contribute to sustaining mycobacterial physiology and survival. We would revise our statements in the paper to accurately reflect the data. Results shown suggest that the tethering activity of the N-terminal region may contribute to mycobacterial morphology and survival. However, additional functions of this region can’t be ruled out. Similarly, the maintenance of lipid homeostasis by Wag31 may be associated with its tethering activity, although other mechanisms could also contribute to this process. 

      • Authors suggest that Wag31 acts as a scaffold for the IMD (Fig. 8). However, Meniche et. al. has shown that MurG as well as GlfT2, two well-characterized IMD proteins, do not colocalize with Wag31 (DivIVA) (https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1402158111). IMD proteins are always slightly subpolar while Wag31 is located to the tip of the cell. Therefore, the authors' biochemical data cannot be easily reconciled with microscopic observations in the literature. This raises a question regarding the validity of protein-protein interaction shown in Figure 7. Since this pull-down assay was conducted by mixing E. coli lysate expressing Wag31 and Msm lysate expression Wag31 interactors like MurG, it is possible that the interactions are not direct. Authors should interpret their data more cautiously. If authors cannot provide additional data and sufficient justifications, they should avoid proposing a confusing model like Figure 8 that contradicts published observations.

      In the literature, MurG and GlfT2 have been shown to have polar localization (Freeman et al., 2023; Hayashi et al., 2016; Kado et al., 2023), and two groups have shown slightly sub-polar localization of MurG (García-Heredia et al., 2021; Meniche et al., 2014). Additionally, (Freeman et al., 2023) they showed SepIVA to be a spatio-temporal regulator of MurG. MS/MS analysis of Wag31 immunoprecipitation data yielded both MurG and SepIVA to be interactors of Wag31 (Fig. 3). Given Wag31 also displays polar localisation, it likely associates with the polar MurG. However, since a sub-polar localization of MurG has also been reported, it is possible that they do not interact directly, and another protein mediates their interaction. We will modify the model proposed in Fig. 8 based on the above.

      We agree that for validation of interaction, we performed pulldown experiments by mixing E. coli lysates expressing His-Wag31 full-length or truncated protein with M. smegmatis lysates expressing FLAG-tagged interacting proteins. The wash conditions used were quite stringent for these pull-down assays—the wash buffer containing 1% Triton X100, which eliminates all non-specific and indirect interactions.  However, we agree that we cannot conclusively state that the interactions are direct without purifying the proteins and performing the experiment. We will describe this caveat in the revised manuscript and propose a model reflecting our results.

      References:

      Freeman, A. H., Tembiwa, K., Brenner, J. R., Chase, M. R., Fortune, S. M., Morita, Y. S., & Boutte, C. C. (2023). Arginine methylation sites on SepIVA help balance elongation and septation in Mycobacterium smegmatis. Mol Microbiol, 119(2), 208-223. https://doi.org/10.1111/mmi.15006

      Garcia Fernandez, M. I., Ceccarelli, D., & Muscatello, U. (2004). Use of the fluorescent dye 10-N-nonyl acridine orange in quantitative and location assays of cardiolipin: a study on different experimental models. Anal Biochem, 328(2), 174-180. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.ab.2004.01.020

      García-Heredia, A., Kado, T., Sein, C. E., Puffal, J., Osman, S. H., Judd, J., Gray, T. A., Morita, Y. S., & Siegrist, M. S. (2021). Membrane-partitioned cell wall synthesis in mycobacteria. eLife, 10. https://doi.org/10.7554/eLife.60263

      Habibi Arejan, N., Ensinck, D., Diacovich, L., Patel, P. B., Quintanilla, S. Y., Emami Saleh, A., Gramajo, H., & Boutte, C. C. (2022). Polar protein Wag31 both activates and inhibits cell wall metabolism at the poles and septum. Front Microbiol, 13, 1085918. https://doi.org/10.3389/fmicb.2022.1085918

      Hayashi, J. M., Luo, C. Y., Mayfield, J. A., Hsu, T., Fukuda, T., Walfield, A. L., Giffen, S. R., Leszyk, J. D., Baer, C. E., Bennion, O. T., Madduri, A., Shaffer, S. A., Aldridge, B. B., Sassetti, C. M., Sandler, S. J., Kinoshita, T., Moody, D. B., & Morita, Y. S. (2016). Spatially distinct and metabolically active membrane domain in mycobacteria. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A, 113(19), 5400-5405. https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1525165113

      Kado, T., Akbary, Z., Motooka, D., Sparks, I. L., Melzer, E. S., Nakamura, S., Rojas, E. R., Morita, Y. S., & Siegrist, M. S. (2023). A cell wall synthase accelerates plasma membrane partitioning in mycobacteria. eLife, 12, e81924. https://doi.org/10.7554/eLife.81924

      Meniche, X., Otten, R., Siegrist, M. S., Baer, C. E., Murphy, K. C., Bertozzi, C. R., & Sassetti, C. M. (2014). Subpolar addition of new cell wall is directed by DivIVA in mycobacteria. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A, 111(31), E3243-3251. https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1402158111

      Mileykovskaya, E., & Dowhan, W. (2000). Visualization of phospholipid domains in Escherichia coli by using the cardiolipin-specific fluorescent dye 10-N-nonyl acridine orange. J Bacteriol, 182(4), 1172-1175. https://doi.org/10.1128/JB.182.4.1172-1175.2000

      Petit, J. M., Maftah, A., Ratinaud, M. H., & Julien, R. (1992). 10N-nonyl acridine orange interacts with cardiolipin and allows the quantification of this phospholipid in isolated mitochondria. Eur J Biochem, 209(1), 267-273. https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1432-1033.1992.tb17285.x

      Renner, L. D., & Weibel, D. B. (2011). Cardiolipin microdomains localize to negatively curved regions of Escherichia coli membranes. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A, 108(15), 6264-6269. https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1015757108

      Xu, W. X., Zhang, L., Mai, J. T., Peng, R. C., Yang, E. Z., Peng, C., & Wang, H. H. (2014). The Wag31 protein interacts with AccA3 and coordinates cell wall lipid permeability and lipophilic drug resistance in Mycobacterium smegmatis. Biochem Biophys Res Commun, 448(3), 255-260. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.bbrc.2014.04.116

    1. A calibration standard of 2% sugar was assigned from a total of six standards: 0, 2, 4, 8and 16 percent sugar

      Great job mentioning the different calibrations and the one assigned.

    2. A calibration standard of 2% sugar was assigned from a total of six standards: 0, 2, 4, 8and 16 percent sugar

      You don't need to say that the standard was assigned

    3. The mass of a metal rod was measured using an electronic balance, and the mass wasrecorded. A graduated cylinder was filled approximately half-way with tap water and the volumewas measured. The metal rod was then gently slid into the graduated cylinder, the new watervolume was measure.Sugar Content and Density:A calibration standard of 2% sugar was assigned from a total of six standards: 0, 2, 4, 8and 16 percent sugar.The mass of a 50 mL beaker was measured using an electronic balance. A 10 mL volumetricpipette was used to measure 10 mL of the 2% calibration standard into the beaker, the new massof the beaker was measured using an electronic balance.This process was then repeated two more times for a total of three trials, recording eachinitial mass and final mass of the beaker in each procedure. The density of each trial was foundusing the equation: 𝑑 = ௠௩ . Where “d” is density, “m” is final mass minus initial mass, and “v” isliquid volume. The average of the three trials were then calculated and recorded.This entire procedure was completed two more times, once with Apple Juice (Fruit Juice)and once with Dr. Pepper (Soda). The data was recorded, and the average densities werecalculated.Using the densities measured for each of the standard calibration mixtures, MicrosoftExcel was used to create a scatter plot of the density in g/mL against the percent sugar. A lineartrendline with an equation was added to the plot. Questions 6-7 were then completed using thecreated scatter plot and its given equation.Figure 1: A scatter plot with a trendline of the found calibration standard densities where the density is against thepercent sugar.Grading Rubricy = 0.0038x + 0.99310.9911.011.021.031.041.051.060 2 4 6 8 10 12 14 16 18Density (g/mL)% Sugar

      The spacing is wrong.

    1. 通过射击颜料袋创作的抽象绘

      妮基·德·圣法尔的“射击绘画”系列("Shooting Paintings" / Tirs Series)是她艺术生涯中一个极具开创性和争议性的重要阶段。这些作品创作于20世纪60年代初,是她对传统绘画方式的彻底颠覆,也标志着她艺术风格的成熟。

      创作过程 (Creation Process):

      “射击绘画”的创作过程本身就是一次行动,一次表演,甚至可以说是一次仪式。其基本步骤如下:

      1. 准备画布/表面 (Preparing the Canvas/Surface): 圣法尔会在木板或石膏表面覆盖一层白色的石膏或颜料,作为绘画的基底。
      2. 放置颜料袋 (Placing the Paint Bags): 她会将装满各种颜色颜料的袋子或容器固定在画布表面。这些颜料袋通常会被隐藏在石膏层下,或者以某种方式暴露出来,形成作品的视觉元素。
      3. 射击 (Shooting): 圣法尔会使用步枪或手枪向画布射击。子弹击破颜料袋,使颜料迸溅出来,在画布上留下独特的痕迹。
      4. 最终效果 (Final Effect): 颜料的迸溅和流动形成了抽象的图案,这些图案既是偶然的,也是由射击的力度和角度决定的。射击留下的弹孔也成为了作品的一部分,增加了作品的立体感和视觉冲击力。

      作品特点 (Characteristics of the Works):

      • 行动性/表演性 (Performative Aspect): “射击绘画”的创作过程本身就是一次表演,观众可以亲眼目睹作品的诞生。这种行动性打破了传统绘画的静态性,使艺术创作更具动态和参与性。
      • 破坏性与创造性的结合 (Combination of Destruction and Creation): 射击行为本身具有破坏性,但它同时也创造了新的艺术形式。颜料的迸溅和流动,以及弹孔的痕迹,都为作品增添了独特的视觉效果。这种破坏与创造的辩证关系是“射击绘画”的重要特征。
      • 偶然性与控制的结合 (Combination of Chance and Control): 颜料的迸溅和流动具有一定的偶然性,艺术家无法完全控制最终的效果。但同时,艺术家也通过颜料袋的放置、射击的角度和力度等因素来影响作品的最终呈现。这种偶然性与控制的结合,使作品既具有 spontaneity 又具有一定的 plannedness。
      • 对传统绘画的挑战 (Challenge to Traditional Painting): “射击绘画”是对传统绘画方式的彻底颠覆。它打破了绘画的二维性,引入了时间和行动的维度。它也挑战了艺术家对创作过程的控制权,将一部分权力交给了偶然性。
      • 情感的宣泄 (Emotional Release): 有评论家认为,“射击绘画”也是圣法尔宣泄个人情感的一种方式,特别是她童年时期受到的创伤和对父权制的反抗。射击行为可以被视为一种释放压抑和愤怒的象征性行为。

      象征意义 (Symbolic Meanings):

      “射击绘画”蕴含着丰富的象征意义:

      • 对父权制的反抗 (Rebellion against Patriarchy): 射击行为可以被解读为对男性权威和父权制的一种象征性攻击。
      • 女性的赋权 (Female Empowerment): 通过掌控具有男性象征的枪支,圣法尔赋予了自己和女性力量。
      • 破坏与重生的循环 (Cycle of Destruction and Rebirth): 破坏性的射击行为同时也带来了新的创造,象征着破坏与重生的循环。
      • 对社会规范的挑战 (Challenge to Social Norms): “射击绘画”以其大胆和挑衅的方式,挑战了当时的社会规范和艺术观念。

      重要作品举例 (Examples of Important Works):

      虽然“射击绘画”是一个系列,但其中一些作品因其独特的视觉效果和历史意义而更为著名。由于这些作品是行动的记录,因此通常以创作的时间和地点来命名。

      总结 (Conclusion):

      “射击绘画”是妮基·德·圣法尔艺术生涯中一个重要的转折点,它标志着她艺术风格的成熟和对传统艺术观念的彻底颠覆。这些作品以其独特的创作方式、强烈的视觉冲击力和深刻的象征意义,成为了20世纪艺术史上的经典之作。它们不仅是艺术作品,更是艺术家个人情感的宣泄和社会批判的表达。

      希望以上解释能够帮助您更好地理解妮基·德·圣法尔的“射击绘画”系列。

    1. 作品赏析

      《亨利·福特医院》(The Henry Ford Hospital) 是墨西哥画家 弗里达·卡洛(Frida Kahlo) 在1932年创作的著名作品。这幅画深刻地展现了弗里达在身体痛苦、情感挣扎和个人经历中的内心世界。以下是欣赏这幅作品的详细解读:


      1. 画作的背景

      • 1932年,弗里达在美国底特律生活期间经历了非常痛苦的一段时光。
      • 她因为严重的身体伤害和怀孕问题多次流产,这幅画正是对一次流产经历的直观表达。
      • 画作反映了她身体的痛苦、内心的孤独以及对生命的无助感。

      2. 画面的主要元素

      (1) 画中人物:弗里达

      • 床上的弗里达:
      • 她赤裸地躺在医院病床上,身上沾满鲜血,面带痛苦。
      • 她的身体蜷缩在一张孤立的铁床上,象征着她的脆弱和被孤立的状态。

      • 身体与环境:

      • 她的身体仿佛漂浮在荒凉的环境中,与地面隔绝,象征她与现实世界的疏离感。

      (2) 六条红线与象征物

      • 六条脐带状的红线从弗里达的腹部延伸到周围的六个物品,每个物品都有深刻的象征意义:
      • 胎儿:
        • 代表她失去的未出生的孩子,象征她对母职的渴望和痛苦。
      • 解剖模型的女性躯干:
        • 表现了生殖器官,象征她受伤的身体和生育能力的丧失。
      • 蜗牛:
        • 表示流产过程的缓慢和折磨。
      • 机械装置:
        • 可能象征现代医学的冷漠和机械化,暗示她对医院治疗的感受。
      • 兰花花朵:
        • 暗示女性的性与生命力,同时也象征脆弱和美丽的短暂。
      • 骨盆:
        • 代表她身体因事故和疾病受损的部分,暗示她的身体痛苦和不完整性。

      (3) 环境背景

      • 荒凉的背景:
      • 画中的背景是一片空旷的荒地,远处有工业建筑,象征她在底特律这个工业化城市中的疏离感和孤独。
      • 这片荒地的冷漠与她身体和情感的痛苦形成鲜明对比。

      3. 画作的情感与主题

      (1) 身体与痛苦

      • 弗里达的身体是她艺术的核心主题之一,这幅画将她的身体与痛苦直接描绘,毫不掩饰。
      • 这幅作品象征了她身体上的创伤和无法承受的心理压力。

      (2) 失落与孤独

      • 流产让她感受到深刻的失落感。孤独的铁床、孤立的环境、以及分离的象征物,强化了这种失落感。
      • 她将痛苦转化为可视化的象征,揭示她内心的挣扎。

      (3) 女性身份与生育

      • 流产让弗里达质疑自己作为女性的身份和价值,这幅画中多次出现与生育和女性身体相关的象征物(如胎儿、骨盆、解剖模型),表现了她内心对这些问题的反思。

      (4) 生与死的对立

      • 画中以鲜血、荒凉的背景和象征死亡的物品(骨盆、胎儿)表达了生命与死亡的张力。

      4. 艺术风格与技巧

      (1) 超现实主义倾向

      • 弗里达尽管没有正式加入超现实主义,但她的许多作品具有超现实主义的特征:
      • 她将内心的情感和痛苦转化为超现实的符号,例如红线连接的六个物品。
      • 环境的不现实性(漂浮的床、荒地背景)也使画作具有梦境般的效果。

      (2) 个人化的象征主义

      • 弗里达将个人经历具象化,创造了独特的视觉语言。她的作品中充满了与她生活相关的具体符号。

      (3) 色彩与构图

      • 冷色调的背景和鲜红的血液形成强烈对比,突出了情感的戏剧性。
      • 中心构图将弗里达的痛苦和孤独感集中展现。

      5. 欣赏这幅作品的方法

      (1) 理解弗里达的生平

      • 弗里达的艺术与她的生活紧密相连,欣赏这幅作品需要了解她的创作背景,包括童年车祸、婚姻、流产等经历。

      (2) 解读象征意义

      • 画中每一个物品、颜色和动作都具有深刻的象征意义。将这些元素与弗里达的个人经历和情感联系起来可以更好地理解画作。

      (3) 感受情感的表达

      • 这幅画的核心在于情感的真实表达。它直接传达了痛苦、孤独和希望破灭的感受,是一幅情感强烈的作品。

      6. 总结

      《亨利·福特医院》是弗里达·卡洛的代表作之一,以赤裸而直接的方式展现了她在流产经历中的身体和情感创伤。通过象征物和超现实主义的表达,她将个人的痛苦升华为普遍的艺术语言。这幅画不仅是弗里达艺术成就的典范,也是她对生命、女性身份和人类脆弱性的深刻思考。

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      In the manuscript by Su et al., the authors present a massively parallel reporter assay (MPRA) measuring the stability of in vitro transcribed mRNAs carrying wild-type or mutant 5' or 3' UTRs transfected into two different human cell lines. The goal presented at the beginning of the manuscript was to screen for effects of disease-associated point mutations on the stability of the reporter RNAs carrying partial human 5' or 3' UTRs. However, the majority of the manuscript is dedicated to identifying sequence components underlying the differential stability of reporter constructs. This analysis showed that UA dinucleotides are the most predictive feature of RNA stability in both cell lines and both UTRs.

      The effect of AU rich elements (AREs) on RNA stability is well established in multiple systems, and the present study confirms this general trend, but points out variability in the consequence of seemingly similar motifs on RNA stability. For example, the authors report that a long stretch of Us has extreme opposite effects on RNA stability depending on whether it is preceded by an A (strongly destabilizing) or followed by an A (strongly stabilizing). While the authors interpretation of a context-dependence of the effect is certainly well-founded, it seems counterintuitive that the preceding or following A would be the (only) determining factor. This points to a generally reductionist approach taken by the authors in the analysis of the data and in their attempt to dissect the contribution of "AU rich sequences" to RNA stability, with a general tendency to reduce the size and complexity of the features (e.g. to dinucleotides). While this certainly increases the statistical power of the analysis due to the number of occurrences of these motifs, it limits the interpretability of the results. How do UA dinucleotides per se contribute to destabilizing the RNA, both in 5' and 3' UTRs, but (according to limited data presented) not in coding sequences? What is the mechanism? RBPs binding to UA dinucleotide containing sequences are suggested to "mask" the destabilizing effect, thereby leading to a more stable RNA. Gain of UA dinucleotides is reported to have a destabilizing effect, but again no hypothesis is provided as to the underlying molecular mechanism. In addition to reducing the motif length to dinucleotides, the notion of "context dependence" is used in a very narrow sense.

      The present MPRA measures the effect of UTR sequences in one specific reporter context and using one experimental approach (following the decay of in vitro transcribed and transfected RNAs). While this method certainly has its merits compared to other approaches, it also comes with some caveats: RNA is delivered naked, without bound RBPs and no nuclear history, e.g. of splicing (no EJCs), editing and modifications. Therefore, it remains to be seen whether UA dinucleotide frequency is a substantial factor in determining the half-lives of endogenous mRNAs.

      The authors conclude their study with a meta-analysis of genes with increased UA dinucleotides in 5' and 3'UTRs, showing that specific functional groups are overrepresented among these genes. In addition, they provide evidence for an effect of disease-associated UTR mutations on endogenous RNA stability. While these elements link back to the original motivation of the study (screening for effects of point mutations in 5' and 3' UTRs), they provide only a limited amount of additional insights.

      In summary, this manuscript presents an interesting addition to the long-standing attempts at dissecting the sequence basis of RNA stability in human cells. The analysis is in general comprehensive and sound; however, it remains unclear to what extent the findings can be generalized beyond the method and the experimental system used here.

      Comments on revisions:

      Parts of my original comments have been adequately addressed by the reviewers.<br /> After reading the revised manuscript and the rebuttal, my main concern is related to the figure comparing the half-lives as measured in the two different cell lines that was included in the response to reviewer 2, but not in the revised manuscript. The complete lack of correlation between the half-lives of the 3'UTR library measured in the two cell lines is concerning. While variability and cell type-specific effects can be expected, some principles should be the same (such as the effect of UA dinucleotides that the authors report), leading to at least some correlation.<br /> In addition, it is unclear to me why the half-lives measured for the two libraries in HEK cells are shifted (median ln(t 1/2)=6-7 for the 5'UTR library and ln(t 1/2)=4-4.5 for the 3'UTR library), but not in SH.

      I feel that this figure contains important information that should be included in the final manuscript.

    2. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary of goals:

      Untranslated regions are key cis-regulatory elements that control mRNA stability, translation, and translocation. Through interactions with small RNAs and RNA binding proteins, UTRs form complex transcriptional circuitry that allows cells to fine-tune gene expression. Functional annotation of UTR variants has been very limited, and improvements could offer insights into disease relevant regulatory mechanisms. The goals were to advance our understanding of the determinants of UTR regulatory elements and characterize the effects of a set of "disease-relevant" UTR variants.

      Strengths:

      The use of a massively parallel reporter assay allowed for analysis of a substantial set (6,555 pairs) of 5' and 3' UTR fragments compiled from known disease associated variants. Two cell types were used.

      The findings confirm previous work about the importance of AREs, which helps show validity and adds some detailed comparisons of specific AU-rich motif effects in these two cell types.

      Using a Lasso regression, TA-dinucleotide content is identified as a strong regulator of RNA stability in a context dependent manner based on GC content and presence of RNA binding protein binding motifs. The findings have potential importance, drawing attention to a UTR feature that is not well characterized.

      The use of complementary datasets, including from half-life analyses of RNAs and from random sequence library MRPA's, is a useful addition and supports several important findings. The finding the TA dinucleotides have explanatory power separate from (and in some cases interacting with) GC content is valuable.

      The functional enrichment analysis suggests some new ideas about how UTRs may contribute to regulation of certain classes of genes.

      Weaknesses:

      In this section, original reviewer comments about the initial submission and the responses of the authors are listed together with new reviewer responses to the authors:

      Reviewer original comment 1: It is difficult to understand how the calculations for half-life were performed. The sequencing approach measures the relative frequency of each sequence at each time point (less stable sequences become relatively less frequent after time 0, whereas more stable sequences become relatively more frequent after time 0). Since there is no discussion of whether the abundance of the transfected RNA population is referenced to some external standard (e.g., housekeeping RNAs), it is not clear how absolute (rather than relative) half-lives were determined.

      Author response: [The authors showed the equations used to calculate half lives based on read counts.] They stated that "The absolute abundance was not required for the half-life calculation."

      Reviewer response to authors: The methods section states that DESeq2 was used to normalize read counts. DESeq2 normalization assumes that levels of most RNAs are not different between samples. That assumption is not valid here, since RNAs in the library are introduced into cells at time 0 and all RNAs decrease over time. If DESeq2 is applied without modification to normalize across timepoints, normalized reads from less stable RNAs will decrease over time (as expected) but normalized reads from more stable RNAs will increase. Can the authors please clarify in the methods how the read counts were normalized to account for this issue?

      Reviewer original comment 2: Fig. S1A and B are used to assess reproducibility. They show that read counts at a given time point correlate well across replicate experiments. However, this is not a good way to assess reproducibility or accuracy of the measurements of t1/2 are. (The major source of variability in read counts in these plots - especially at early time points - is likely starting abundance of each RNA sequence, not stability.) This creates concerns about how well the method is measuring t1/2. Also creating concern is the observation that many RNAs are associated with half-lives that are much longer than the time points analyzed in the study. For example, based upon Figure S1 and Table S1 correctly, the median t1/2 for the 5' UTR library in HEK cells appears to be >700 minutes. Given that RNA was collected at 30, 75, and 120 minutes, accurate measurements of RNAs with such long half lives would seem to be very difficult.

      Author response: ... The calculation of the half-life involves first determining the decay constant 𝜆, which represents a constant rate of decay. Since 𝜆 is a constant, it is possible to accurately calculate it without needing data over the entire decay range. Our experimental design considers this by selecting appropriate time points to ensure a reliable estimation of 𝜆, and thus, the half-life. To determine the most suitable time points, we conducted preliminary experiments using RT-PCR. These experiments indicated that 30, 75, and 120 minutes provided an effective range for capturing the decay dynamics of the transcripts.

      Reviewer response to author comments: Based on Fig. S1D, for 3' UTRs in both cell types and for 5' UTRs in SH-SY5Y cells, median t1/2 is in the range of ~30 to 90 minutes (corresponding to ln t1/2 = 3.5 to 4.5). Measuring RNAs at 30, 75, and 120 minutes would therefore be a good choice for these cases, However, median t1/2 in HEK cells appears to be ~600 minutes (corresponding to ln t1/2 ~6.4) for HEK cells. For t1/2 of 600 minutes, RNA levels at the final time point (120 minutes) would be 90% of the those at the first time point (30 minutes), which illustrates why the method would need to be able to reliably capture very small changes in RNA abundance to accurately measure t1/2 for transcripts with half-lives much longer than 120 minutes. As suggested in our original review, this concern could be addressed by showing the correlation of half-lives across replicates for the 5' and 3' UTR libraries in both cell types. Alternatively, the authors could show other measures of reproducibility for the half-life measurements across replicates. This requires no additional experimentation and can be done using the data from replicate runs shown in Fig. S1A and B. We remain concerned that for sequences with very long half-lives, extrapolating the half-life from small changes between 30 and 120 minutes will lead to imprecise measurements.

      Reviewer original comment 3: There is no direct comparison of t1/2 between the two cell types studied for the full set of sequences studied. This would be helpful in understanding whether the regulatory effects of UTRs are generally similar across cell lines (as has been shown in some previous studies) or whether there are fundamental differences. The distribution of t1/2's is clearly quite different in the two cell lines, but it is important to know if this reflects generally slow RNA turnover in HEK cells or whether there are a large number of sequence-specific effects on stability between cell lines. A related issue is that it is not clear whether the relatively small number of significant variant effects detected in HEK cells versus SH-SY5Y cells is attributable to real biological differences between cell types or to technical issues (many fewer read counts and much longer half lives in HEK cells).

      Author response: For both cell lines, we selected oligonucleotides with R2 > 0.5 and mean squared error (MSE) < 1 for analysis when estimating half-life (λ) by linear regression. This selection criterion was implemented to minimize the effect of experimental noise. After quality control, we selected common UTRs and compared the RNA half-lives of the two cell lines using a scatter plot. The figure below shows that RNA half-lives are quite different between the cell lines, with a moderate similarity observed in the 5' UTRs (R = 0.21), while the correlation in the 3' UTRs is non-significant. Despite the low correlation of mRNA half-life between the two cell lines, UA-dinucleotide and UA-rich sequences consistently emerge as the most significant destabilizing features, suggesting a shared regulatory mechanism across diverse cellular environments.

      Reviewer response to author comments: We appreciate that the authors shared this additional analysis of the data. We believe that this is an important finding and that the additional figure showing correlations of half-lives across cell types should be included in the manuscript or supplement. Discussion of this result in the manuscript would also be useful for readers. This result is surprising to us since we would have expected that widely expressed RNA-binding proteins would have led to more similar effects between the two cell types, as previously found using other approaches (e.g., studies of 3' UTR effects in MPRAs). It would also be appropriate to discuss that differences seen between the two cell types indicate that caution is warranted when trying to generalize the results of this study to other cell types.

      Reviewer original comment 4 has been addressed adequately in the revised manuscript.

      Appraisal and impact:

      Reviewer original comment 1: The work adds to existing studies that previously identified sequence features, including AREs and other RNA binding protein motifs, that regulate stability and puts a new emphasis on the role of "TA" (better "UA") dinucleotides. It is not clear how potential problems with the RNA stability measurements discussed above might influence the overall conclusions, which may limit the impact unless these can be addressed.

      It is difficult to understand whether the importance of TA dinucleotides is best explained by their occurrence in a related set of longer RBP binding motifs (see Fig 5J, these motifs may be encompassed by the "WWWWWW cluster") or whether some other explanation applies. Further discussion of this would be helpful. Does the LASSO method tend to collapse a more diverse set of longer motifs that are each relatively rare compared to the dinucleotide? It remains unclear whether TA dinucleotides are associated with less stability independent of the presence of the known larger WWWWWWW motif. As noted above, the importance of TA dinucleotides in the HEK experiments appears to be less than is implied in the text.

      Author response: To ensure the representativeness of the features entered into the LASSO model, we pre-selected those with an occurrence greater than 10% among all UTRs. There is no evidence to support a preference for dinucleotides by LASSO. To address whether the destabilizing effect of UA dinucleotides is part of the broader WWWWWW motif, we divided UA dinucleotides into two groups: those within the WWWWWW motif and those outside of it. Specifically, we divided UTRs into two categories: 'at least one UA within a WWWWWW motif' and 'no UA within a WWWWWW motif,' and visualized the results using a boxplot. As shown in [figures provided to the reviewers], the destabilizing trend still remains for UA dinucleotides outside of the WWWWWW motif, although the effect appears to be more pronounced when UA is within the WWWWWW motif. This suggests that while UA dinucleotides have a destabilizing effect independently, their impact is amplified when they are part of the broader WWWWWW motif.

      Reviewer response to authors: These are useful additional analyses, and we suggest that the additional figure and discussion should be included in the manuscript/supplement so that readers can benefit from them.

      Reviewer original comment 2: The inclusion of more than a single cell type is an acknowledgement of the importance of evaluating cell type-specific effects. The work suggests a number of cell type-specific differences, but due to technical issues (especially with the HEK data, as outlined above) and the use of only two cell lines, it is difficult to understand cell type effects from the work.

      The inclusion of both 3' and 5' UTR sequences distinguishes this work from most prior studies in the field. Contrasting the effects of these regions on stability is of interest, although the role of these UTRs (especially the 5' UTR) in translational regulation is not assessed here.

      Author response: We examined the role of UTR and UTR variants in translation regulation using polysome profiling. By both univariate analysis and an elastic regression model, we identified motifs of short repeated sequences, including SRSF2 binding sites, as mutation hotspots that lead to aberrant translation. Furthermore, these polysome-shifting mutations had a considerable impact on RNA secondary structures, particularly in upstream AUG-containing 5' UTRs. Integrating these features, our model achieved high accuracy (AUROC > 0.8) in predicting polysome-shifting mutations in the test dataset. Additionally, metagene analysis indicated that pathogenic variants were enriched at the upstream open reading frame (uORF) translation start site, suggesting changes in uORF usage underlie the translation deficiencies caused by these mutations. Illustrating this, we demonstrated that a pathogenic mutation in the IRF6 5' UTR suppresses translation of the primary open reading frame by creating a uORF. Remarkably, site-directed ADAR editing of the mutant mRNA rescued this translation deficiency. Because the regulation of translation and stability does not converge, we illustrate these two mechanisms in two separate manuscripts (this one and doi.org/10.1101/2024.04.11.589132).

      Reviewer response to authors: This is useful context. No further comment.

    3. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In their manuscript titled "Multiplexed Assays of Human Disease‐relevant Mutations Reveal UTR Dinucleotide Composition as a Major Determinant of RNA Stability" the authors aim to investigate the effect of sequence variations in 3'UTR and 5'UTRs on the stability of mRNAs in two different human cell lines.

      To do so, the authors use a massively parallel reporter assay (MPRA). They transfect cells with a set of mRNA reporters that contain sequence variants in their 3' or 5' UTRs, which were previously reported in human diseases. They follow their clearance from cells over time relative to the matching non-variant sequence. To analyze their results, they define a set of factors (RBP and miRNA binding sites, sequence features, secondary structure etc.) and test their association with differences in mRNA stability. For features with a significant association, they use clustering to select a subset of factors for LASSO regression and identify factors that affect mRNA stability.<br /> They conclude that the TA dinucleotide content of UTRs is the strongest destabilizing sequence feature. Within that context, elevated GC content and protein binding can protect susceptible mRNAs from degradation. They also show that TA dinucleotide content of UTRs affects native mRNA stability and that it is associated with specific functional groups. Finally, they link disease associated sequence variants with differences in mRNA stability of reporters.

      Strengths:

      (1) This work introduces a different MPRA approach to analyze the effect of genetic variants. While previous works in tissue culture use DNA transfections that require normalization for transcription efficiency, here the mRNA is directly introduced into cells at fixed amounts, allowing a more direct view of the mRNA regulation.

      (2) The authors also introduce a unique analysis approach, which takes into account multiple factors that might affect mRNA stability. This approach allows them to identify general sequence features that affect mRNA stability beyond specific genetic variants, and reach important insights on mRNA stability regulation. Indeed, while the conclusions to genetic variants identified in this work are interesting, the main strength of the work involves general effect of sequence features rather than specific variants.

      (3) The authors provide adequate support for their claims and validate their analysis using both their reporter data and native genes. For the main feature identified, TA di-nucleotides, they perform follow-up experiments with modified reporters that further strengthen their claims, and also validate the effect on native cellular transcripts (beyond reporters), demonstrating its validity also within native scenarios.

      (4) The work provides a broad analysis of mRNA stability, across two mRNA regulatory segments (3'UTR and 5'UTR) and is performed in two separate cell-types. Comparison between two different cell-types is adequate, and the results demonstrate, as expected, the dependence of mRNA stability on the cellular context. Analysis of 3'UTR and 5'UTR regulatory effects also shows interesting differences and similarities between these two regulatory regions.

      Weaknesses:

      In their revised manuscripts, the authors successfully address many of the weaknesses raised in the original review, including the effect of possible confounding effects, and additional methodology details. Notably, two of the issues raised in the original report, have only been partially addressed in the revision.

      (1) The analysis and regression models built in this work are not thoroughly investigated relative to native genes within cells.<br /> While using MPRAs indeed allows to isolate regulatory effects that are less influential in-vivo, the resulting effects still provide some regulatory function in-vivo. The goal of such an analysis would not be to demonstrate the predictive power of the models, or to make any claims regarding using these models to fully explain or predict the stability of native transcripts. Clearly, additional more prominent factors could function in controlling endogenous RNA stability.<br /> Instead, the goal of such an investigation is to simply assess the fraction of in-vivo regulation that the factors identified in this work contribute in native contexts, and what is the relative contribution of the phenomena captured by the well-controlled MPRA study.<br /> This reviewer believes that even if the effects identified by the current MPRA study only contribute a small fraction of in-vivo variation, an analysis that aim to estimate what this fraction is, will be very relevant to this study for several reasons. First, in order to appreciate the results of this study within their in-vivo context. Second, in light of the questions raised as motivation for this study, and particularly the need to identify the effect of disease-associated 3'UTR variants, which clearly have an in-vivo effect.

      (2) Methodology validation can be performed with simulated data (generated in-silico by the authors) to provide an independent support for the ability of the current methodology to correctly extract regulatory effects from the data.

    1. 受到日本艺术的影响,注重画面的平面构成和装饰性

      这段话描述的是维也纳分离派的艺术风格特点之一——“平面化”(Flächenhaftigkeit),并指出这种风格受到了日本艺术的影响,强调了画面构成和装饰性。要理解这段话,我们需要拆解其中的几个关键概念:

      • 平面化 (Flächenhaftigkeit): 指的是在绘画或设计中,强调二维平面的效果,弱化或摒弃传统绘画中对三维空间和透视的逼真描绘。画面中的物体和形象往往被简化成平面化的形状,轮廓清晰,缺乏体积感和阴影。
      • 日本艺术的影响: 19世纪末20世纪初,日本的浮世绘等艺术形式在欧洲广泛传播,对当时的艺术界产生了深远的影响。浮世绘以其简洁的线条、鲜艳的色彩、平面化的构图和装饰性图案而著称,对包括维也纳分离派在内的许多艺术家产生了启发。
      • 平面构成: 指的是在二维平面上,运用各种视觉元素(如点、线、面、色彩、肌理等),按照一定的规律和原则进行组织和排列,以创造具有审美价值的视觉形式。平面构成强调的是元素之间的关系、画面的整体结构和视觉效果。
      • 装饰性: 指的是作品具有强调美观、愉悦视觉的效果,通常通过运用各种装饰性的图案、纹样、线条和色彩来实现。装饰性往往与实用性相对,但并非完全对立。

      为什么这里要强调平面构成与装饰性的关系?

      在维也纳分离派的艺术中,平面构成和装饰性是密切相关的,这主要体现在以下几个方面:

      1. 平面化是装饰性的基础: 由于维也纳分离派的艺术家们强调平面化的表现手法,弱化了三维空间的描绘,使得画面更加适合进行装饰性的处理。平面化的画面更容易进行图案化、纹样化的设计,从而增强画面的装饰性。
      2. 日本艺术的影响: 日本浮世绘等艺术形式对维也纳分离派的平面化和装饰性产生了直接的影响。浮世绘的平面构图、简洁的线条和装饰性的图案,都被维也纳分离派的艺术家们借鉴和吸收。
      3. 追求“总体艺术”的理念: 维也纳分离派追求“总体艺术”(Gesamtkunstwerk),即希望将艺术融入到生活的各个方面,创造一个和谐统一的艺术环境。这种理念使得他们不仅关注绘画和雕塑等纯艺术领域,也重视建筑、设计、工艺美术等应用艺术领域。在这些应用艺术领域中,装饰性是重要的设计原则之一。因此,维也纳分离派的艺术家们将装饰性也融入到了他们的绘画作品中。
      4. 风格特征的体现: 平面构成和装饰性是维也纳分离派的重要风格特征。通过强调平面构成,他们创造了独特的视觉语言,通过运用装饰性图案和纹样,他们增强了画面的美观性和吸引力。

      举例说明:

      古斯塔夫·克林姆的许多作品,例如《吻》、《阿黛尔·布洛赫-鲍尔肖像一号》等,都体现了平面构成和装饰性的特点。这些作品的背景通常布满了各种装饰性的图案和纹样,人物的形象也被简化成平面化的形状,并与背景融为一体,形成了一种独特的视觉效果。这些作品不仅具有绘画的艺术性,也具有很强的装饰性。

      总结:

      在描述维也纳分离派的“平面化”风格时,强调平面构成和装饰性的关系,是为了更准确地把握其艺术特征,并揭示其受日本艺术和“总体艺术”理念影响的根源。平面化为装饰性提供了基础,而装饰性则丰富了平面构成的表现力,两者共同构成了维也纳分离派独特的艺术风格。

      希望以上解释能够帮助你更好地理解这段话的含义。

    1. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Li et al. describe an audiovisual temporal recalibration experiment in which participants perform baseline sessions of ternary order judgments about audiovisual stimulus pairs with various stimulus-onset asynchronies (SOAs). These are followed by adaptation at several adapting SOAs (each on a different day), followed by post-adaptation sessions to assess changes in psychometric functions. The key novelty is the formal specification and application/fit of a causal-inference model for the perception of relative timing, providing simulated predictions for the complete set of psychometric functions both pre and post adaptation.

      Strengths:

      (1) Formal models are preferable to vague theoretical statements about a process, and prior to this work, certain accounts of temporal recalibration (specifically those that do not rely on a population code) had only qualitative theoretical statements to explain how/why the magnitude of recalibration changes non-linearly with the stimulus-onset asynchrony of the adaptor.<br /> (2) The experiment is appropriate, the methods are well described, and the average model prediction is a good match to the average data (Figure 4). Conclusions are supported by the data and modelling.<br /> (3) The work should be impactful. There seems a good chance that this will become the go-to modelling framework for those exploring non population-code accounts of temporal recalibration (or comparing them with population-code accounts).<br /> (4) Key issues for the generality of the model, such as recalibration asymmetries reported by other authors that are inconsistent with those reported here, are thoughtfully discussed.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Models are not compared using a gold-standard measure such as leave-one-out cross validation. However, this is legitimate given lengthy model fitting times, and a sensible approximation is presented.<br /> (2) The model misses in a systematic way for the psychometric functions of some participants/conditions. In addition to misses relating to occasional failures to estimate the magnitude of recalibration, some of the misses are because all functions are only permitted to shift in central tendency (whereas some participants show changes better characterized at one or both decision criteria). Given the fact that the modelling in general embraces individual differences, it might have been worth allowing different kinds of change for different participants. However, this is not really critical for the central concern (changes in the magnitude of recalibration for different adaptors) and there is a limit to how much can be done along these lines without making the model too flexible to test.<br /> (3) As a minor point, the model relies on simulation, which may limit its take-up/application by others in the field (although open access code will be provided).

    2. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      This study asks whether the phenomenon of crossmodal temporal recalibration, i.e. the adjustment of time perception by consistent temporal mismatches across the senses, can be explained by the concept of multisensory causal inference. In particular, they ask whether the explanation offered by causal inference better explains temporal recalibration better than a model assuming that crossmodal stimuli are always integrated, regardless of how discrepant they are.

      The study is motivated by previous work in the spatial domain, where it has been shown consistently across studies that the use of crossmodal spatial information is explained by the concept of multisensory causal inference. It is also motivated by the observation that the behavioral data showcasing temporal recalibration feature nonlinearities that, by their nature, cannot be explained by a fixed integration model (sometimes also called mandatory fusion).

      To probe this the authors implemented a sophisticated experiment that probed temporal recalibration in several sessions. They then fit the data using the two classes of candidate models and rely on model criteria to provide evidence for their conclusion. The study is sophisticated, conceptually and technically state-of-the-art, and theoretically grounded. The data clearly support the authors’ conclusions.

      I find the conceptual advance somewhat limited. First, by design, the fixed integration model cannot explain data with a nonlinear dependency on multisensory discrepancy, as already explained in many studies on spatial multisensory perception. Hence, it is not surprising that the causal inference model better fits the data.

      We have addressed this comment by including an asynchrony-contingent model, which is capable of predicting the nonlinearity of recalibration effects by employing a heuristic approximation of the causal-inference process (Fig. 3). We also updated the previous competitor model with a more reasonable asynchrony-correction model as the baseline of model comparison, which assumes recalibration aims to restore synchrony whenever the sensory measurement of SOA indicates an asynchrony. The causal-inference model outperformed both models, as indicated by model evidence (Fig. 4A). Furthermore, model predictions show that the causal-inference model more accurately captures recalibration at large SOAs at both the group (Fig. 4B) and the individual levels (Fig. S4).

      Second, and again similar to studies on spatial paradigms, the causal inference model fails to predict the behavioral data for large discrepancies. The model predictions in Figure 5 show the (expected) vanishing recalibration for large delta, while the behavioral data don’t decay to zero. Either the range of tested SOAs is too small to show that both the model and data converge to the same vanishing effect at large SOAs, or the model's formula is not the best for explaining the data. Again, the studies using spatial paradigms have the same problem, but in my view, this poses the most interesting question here.

      We included an additional simulation (Fig. 5B) to show that the causal-inference model can predict non-zero recalibration for long adapter SOAs, especially in observers with a high common-cause prior and low sensory precision. This ability to predict a non-zero recalibration effect even at large SOA, such as 0.7 s, is one key feature of the causal-inference model that distinguishes it from the asynchrony-contingent model.

      In my view there is nothing generally wrong with the study, it does extend the 'known' to another type of paradigm. However, it covers little new ground on the conceptual side.

      On that note, the small sample size of n=10 is likely not an issue, but still, it is on the very low end for this type of study.

      This study used a within-subject design, which included 3 phases each repeated in 9 sessions, totaling 13.5 hours per participant. This extensive data collection allows us to better constrain the model for each participant. Our conclusions are based on the different models’ ability to fit individual data.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Li et al.’s goal is to understand the mechanisms of audiovisual temporal recalibration. This is an interesting challenge that the brain readily solves in order to compensate for real-world latency differences in the time of arrival of audio/visual signals. To do this they perform a 3-phase recalibration experiment on 9 observers that involves a temporal order judgment (TOJ) pretest and posttest (in which observers are required to judge whether an auditory and visual stimulus were coincident, auditory leading or visual leading) and a conditioning phase in which participants are exposed to a sequence of AV stimuli with a particular temporal disparity. Participants are required to monitor both streams of information for infrequent oddballs, before being tested again in the TOJ, although this time there are 3 conditioning trials for every 1 TOJ trial. Like many previous studies, they demonstrate that conditioning stimuli shift the point of subjective simultaneity (pss) in the direction of the exposure sequence.

      These shifts are modest - maxing out at around -50 ms for auditory leading sequences and slightly less than that for visual leading sequences. Similar effects are observed even for the longest offsets where it seems unlikely listeners would perceive the stimuli as synchronous (and therefore under a causal inference model you might intuitively expect no recalibration, and indeed simulations in Figure 5 seem to predict exactly that which isn't what most of their human observers did). Overall I think their data contribute evidence that a causal inference step is likely included within the process of recalibration.

      Strengths:

      The manuscript performs comprehensive testing over 9 days and 100s of trials and accompanies this with mathematical models to explain the data. The paper is reasonably clearly written and the data appear to support the conclusions.

      Weaknesses:

      While I believe the data contribute evidence that a causal inference step is likely included within the process of recalibration, this to my mind is not a mechanism but might be seen more as a logical checkpoint to determine whether whatever underlying neuronal mechanism actually instantiates the recalibration should be triggered.

      We have addressed this comment by replacing the fixed-update model with an asynchrony-correction model, which assumes that the system first evaluates whether the measurement of SOA is asynchronous, thus indicating a need for recalibration (Fig. 3). If it does, it shifts the audiovisual bias by a proportion of the measured SOA. We additionally included an asynchrony-contingent model, which is capable of replicating the nonlinearity of recalibration effects by a heuristic approximation of the causal-inference process.

      Model comparisons indicate that the causal-inference model of temporal recalibration outperforms both alternative models (Fig. 4A). Furthermore, the model predictions demonstrate that the causal-inference model more accurately captures recalibration at large SOAs at both the group level (Fig. 4B) and individual level (Fig. S4).

      The authors’ causal inference model strongly predicts that there should be no recalibration for stimuli at 0.7 ms offset, yet only 3/9 participants appear to show this effect. They note that a significant difference in their design and that of others is the inclusion of longer lags, which are unlikely to originate from the same source, but don’t offer any explanation for this key difference between their data and the predictions of a causal inference model.

      We added further simulations to show that the causal-inference model can predict non-zero recalibration also for longer adapter SOAs, especially in observers with a large common-cause prior (Fig. 5A) and low sensory precision (Fig. 5B). This ability to predict a non-zero recalibration effect even at longer adapter SOAs, such as 0.7 s, is a key feature of the causal-inference model that distinguishes it from the asynchrony-contingent model.

      I’m also not completely convinced that the causal inference model isn’t ‘best’ simply because it has sufficient free parameters to capture the noise in the data. The tested models do not (I think) have equivalent complexity - the causal inference model fits best, but has more parameters with which to fit the data. Moreover, while it fits ‘best’, is it a good model? Figure S6 is useful in this regard but is not completely clear - are the red dots the actual data or the causal inference prediction? This suggests that it does fit the data very well, but is this based on predicting held-out data, or is it just that by having more parameters it can better capture the noise? Similarly, S7 is a potentially useful figure but it's not clear what is data and what are model predictions (what are the differences between each row for each participant; are they two different models or pre-test post-test or data and model prediction?!).

      I'm not an expert on the implementation of such models but my reading of the supplemental methods is that the model is fit using all the data rather than fit and tested on held-out data. This seems problematic.

      We recognize the risk of overfitting with the causal-inference model. We now rely on Bayesian model comparisons, which use model evidence for model selection. This method automatically incorporates a penalty for model complexity through the marginalization over the parameter space (MacKay, 2003).

      Our design is not suitable for cross-validation because the model-fitting process is computationally intensive and time-consuming. Each fit of the causal-inference model takes approximately 30 hours, and multiple fits with different initial starting points are required to rule out that the parameter estimates correspond to local minima.

      I would have liked to have seen more individual participant data (which is currently in the supplemental materials, albeit in a not very clear manner as discussed above).

      We have revised Supplementary Figures S4-S6 to show additional model predictions of the recalibration effect for individual participants, and participants’ temporal-order judgments are now shown in Supplement Figure S7. These figures confirm the better performance of the causal-inference model.

      The way that S3 is described in the text (line 141) makes it sound like everyone was in the same direction, however, it is clear that 2 /9 listeners show the opposite pattern, and 2 have confidence intervals close to zero (albeit on the -ve side).

      We have revised the text to clarify that the asymmetry occurs in both directions and is idiosyncratic (lines 168-171). We summarized the distribution of the individual asymmetries of the recalibration effect across visual-leading and auditory-leading adapter SOAs in Supplementary Figure S2.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Li et al. describe an audiovisual temporal recalibration experiment in which participants perform baseline sessions of ternary order judgments about audiovisual stimulus pairs with various stimulus-onset asynchronies (SOAs). These are followed by adaptation at several adapting SOAs (each on a different day), followed by post-adaptation sessions to assess changes in psychometric functions. The key novelty is the formal specification and application/fit of a causal-inference model for the perception of relative timing, providing simulated predictions for the complete set of psychometric functions both pre and post-adaptation.

      Strengths:

      (1) Formal models are preferable to vague theoretical statements about a process, and prior to this work, certain accounts of temporal recalibration (specifically those that do not rely on a population code) had only qualitative theoretical statements to explain how/why the magnitude of recalibration changes non-linearly with the stimulus-onset asynchrony of the adapter.

      (2) The experiment is appropriate, the methods are well described, and the average model prediction is a fairly good match to the average data (Figure 4). Conclusions may be overstated slightly, but seem to be essentially supported by the data and modelling.

      (3) The work should be impactful. There seems a good chance that this will become the go-to modelling framework for those exploring non-population-code accounts of temporal recalibration (or comparing them with population-code accounts).

      (4) A key issue for the generality of the model, specifically in terms of recalibration asymmetries reported by other authors that are inconsistent with those reported here, is properly acknowledged in the discussion.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The evidence for the model comes in two forms. First, two trends in the data (non-linearity and asymmetry) are illustrated, and the model is shown to be capable of delivering patterns like these. Second, the model is compared, via AIC, to three other models. However, the main comparison models are clearly not going to fit the data very well, so the fact that the new model fits better does not seem all that compelling. I would suggest that the authors consider a comparison with the atheoretical model they use to first illustrate the data (in Figure 2). This model fits all sessions but with complete freedom to move the bias around (whereas the new model constrains the way bias changes via a principled account). The atheoretical model will obviously fit better, but will have many more free parameters, so a comparison via AIC/BIC or similar should be informative

      In the revised manuscript, we switched from AIC to Bayesian model selection, which approximates and compares model evidence. This method incorporates a strong penalty for model complexity through marginalization over the parameter space (MacKay, 2003).

      We have addressed this comment by updating the former competitor model into a more reasonable version that induces recalibration only for some measured SOAs and by including another (asynchrony-contingent) model that is capable of predicting the nonlinearity and asymmetry of recalibration (Fig. 3) while heuristically approximating the causal inference computations. The causal-inference model outperformed the asynchrony-contingent model, as indicated by model evidence (Fig. 4A). Furthermore, model predictions show that the causal-inference model more accurately captures recalibration at large SOAs at both the group (Fig. 4B) and the individual level (Fig. S4).

      (2) It does not appear that some key comparisons have been subjected to appropriate inferential statistical tests. Specifically, lines 196-207 - presumably this is the mean (and SD or SE) change in AIC between models across the group of 9 observers. So are these differences actually significant, for example via t-test?

      We statistically compared the models using Bayes factors (Fig. 4A). The model evidence for each model was approximated using Variational Bayesian Monte Carlo. Bayes factors provided strong evidence in support of the causal-inference model relative to the other models.

      (3) The manuscript tends to gloss over the population-code account of temporal recalibration, which can already provide a quantitative account of how the magnitude of recalibration varies with adapter SOA. This could be better acknowledged, and the features a population code may struggle with (asymmetry?) are considered.

      We simulated a population-code model to examine its prediction of the recalibration effect for different adapter SOAs (lines 380–388, Supplement Section 8). The population-code model can predict the nonlinearity of recalibration, i.e., a decreasing recalibration effect as the adapter SOA increases. However, to capture the asymmetry of recalibration effects across auditory-leading and visual-leading adapter stimuli, we would need to assume that the auditory-leading and visual-leading SOAs are represented by neural populations with unequal tuning curves.

      (4) The engagement with relevant past literature seems a little thin. Firstly, papers that have applied causal inference modeling to judgments of relative timing are overlooked (see references below). There should be greater clarity regarding how the modelling here builds on or differs from these previous papers (most obviously in terms of additionally modelling the recalibration process, but other details may vary too). Secondly, there is no discussion of previous findings like that in Fujisaki et al.’s seminal work on recalibration, where the spatial overlap of the audio and visual events didn’t seem to matter (although admittedly this was an N = 2 control experiment). This kind of finding would seem relevant to a causal inference account.

      References:

      Magnotti JF, Ma WJ and Beauchamp MS (2013) Causal inference of asynchronous audiovisual speech. Front. Psychol. 4:798. doi: 10.3389/fpsyg.2013.00798

      Sato, Y. (2021). Comparing Bayesian models for simultaneity judgement with different causal assumptions. J. Math. Psychol., 102, 102521.

      We have revised the Introduction and Discussion to better situate our study within the existing literature. Specifically, we have incorporated the suggested references (lines 66–69) and provided clearer distinctions on how our modeling approach builds on or differs from previous work on causal-inference models, particularly in terms of modeling the recalibration process (lines 75–79). Additionally, we have discussed findings that might contradict the assumptions of the causal-inference model (lines 405–424).

      (5) As a minor point, the model relies on simulation, which may limit its take-up/application by others in the field.

      Upon acceptance, we will publicly share the code for all models (simulation and parameter fitting) to enable researchers to adapt and apply these models to their own data.

      (6) There is little in the way of reassurance regarding the model’s identifiability and recoverability. The authors might for example consider some parameter recovery simulations or similar.

      We conducted a model recovery for each of the six models described in the main text and confirmed that the asynchrony-contingent and causal-inference models are identifiable (Supplement Section 11). Simulations of the asynchrony-correction model were sometimes best fit by causal-inference models, because the latter behaves similarly when the prior of a common cause is set to one.

      We also conducted a parameter recovery for the winning model, the causal-inference model with modality-specific precision (Supplement Section 13).

      Key parameters, including audiovisual bias  , amount of auditory latency noise  , amount of visual latency noise  , criterion, lapse rate  showed satisfactory recovery performance. The less accurate recovery of  is likely due to a tradeoff with learning rate  .

      (7) I don't recall any statements about open science and the availability of code and data.

      Upon acceptance of the manuscript, all code (simulation and parameter fitting) and data will be made available on OSF and publicly available.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewing Editor (Recommendations For The Authors):

      In addition to the comments below, we would like to offer the following summary based on the discussion between reviewers:

      The major shortcoming of the work is that there should ideally be a bit more evidence to support the model, over and above a demonstration that it captures important trends and beats an account that was already known to be wrong. We suggest you:

      (1) Revise the figure legends (Figure 5 and Figure 6E).

      We revised all figures and figure legends.

      (2) Additionally report model differences in terms of BIC (which will favour the preferred model less under the current analysis);

      We now base the model comparison on Bayesian model selection, which approximates and compares model evidence. This method incorporates a strong penalty for model complexity through marginalization over the parameter space (MacKay, 2003).

      (3) Move to instead fitting the models multiple times in order to get leave-one-out estimates of best-fitting loglikelihood for each left-out data point (and then sum those for the comparison metric).

      Unfortunately, our design is not suitable for cross-validation methods because the model-fitting process is computationally intensive and time-consuming. Each fit of the causal-inference model takes approximately 30 hours, and multiple fits with different initial starting points are required to rule out local minima.

      (4) Offering a comparison with a more convincing model (for example an atheoretical fit with free parameters for all adapters, e.g. as suggested by Reviewer 3.

      We updated the previous competitor model and included an asynchrony-contingent model, which is capable of predicting the nonlinearity of recalibration (Fig. 3). The causal-inference model still outperformed the asynchrony-contingent model (Fig. 4A). Furthermore, model predictions show that only the causal-inference model captures non-zero recalibration effects for long adapter SOAs at both the group level (Fig. 4B) and individual level (Figure S4).

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      A larger sample size would be better.

      This study used a within-subject design, which included 9 sessions, totaling 13.5 hours per participant. This extensive data collection allows us to better constrain the model for each participant. Our conclusions are based on the different models’ ability to fit individual data rather than on group statistics.

      It would be good to better put the study in the context of spatial ventriloquism, where similar model comparisons have been done over the last ten years and there is a large body of work to connect to.

      We now discuss our model in relation to models of cross-modal spatial recalibration in the Introduction (lines 70–78) and Discussion (lines 324–330).

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Previous authors (e.g. Yarrow et al.,) have described latency shift and criterion change models as providing a good fit of experimental data. Did the authors attempt a criterion shift model in addition to a shift model?

      We have considered criterion-shift variants of our atheoretical recalibration models in Supplement Section 1. To summarize the results, we varied two model assumptions: 1) the use of either a Gaussian or an exponential measurement distribution, and 2) recalibration being implemented either as a shift of bias or a criterion. We fit each model variant separately to the ternary TOJ responses of all sessions. Bayesian model comparisons indicated that the bias-shift model with exponential measurement distributions best captured the data of most participants.

      Figure 4B - I'm not convinced that the modality-independent uncertainty is anything but a straw man. Models not allowed to be asymmetric do not show asymmetry? (the asymmetry index is irrelevant in the fixed update model as I understand it so it is not surprising the model is identical?).

      We included the assumption that temporal uncertainty might be modality-independent for several reasons. First, there is evidence suggesting that a central mechanism governs the precision of temporal-order judgments (Hirsh & Sherrick, 1961), indicating that precision is primarily limited by a central mechanism rather than the sensory channels themselves. Second, from a modeling perspective, it was necessary to test whether an audio-visual temporal bias alone, i.e., assuming modality-independent uncertainty, could introduce asymmetry across adapter SOAs. Additionally, most previous studies implicitly assumed symmetric likelihoods, i.e., modality-independent latency noise, by fitting cumulative Gaussians to the psychometric curves derived from 2AFC-TOJ tasks (Di Luca et al., 2009; Fujisaki et al., 2004; Harrar & Harris, 2005; Keetels & Vroomen, 2007; Navarra et al., 2005; Tanaka et al., 2011; Vatakis et al., 2007, 2008; Vroomen et al., 2004).

      Why does a zero SOA adapter shift the pss towards auditory leading? Is this a consequence of the previous day’s conditioning - it’s not clear from the methods whether all listeners had the same SOA conditioning sequence across days.

      The auditory-leading recalibration effect for an adapter SOA of zero has been consistently reported in previous studies (e.g., Fujisaki et al., 2004; Vroomen et al., 2004). This effect symbolizes the asymmetry in recalibration. This asymmetry can be explained by differences across modalities in the noisiness of the latencies (Figure 5C) in combination with audiovisual temporal bias (Figure S8).

      We added details about the order of testing to the Methods section (lines 456–457).

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Abstract

      “Our results indicate that human observers employ causal-inference-based percepts to recalibrate cross-modal temporal perception” Your results indicate this is plausible. However, this statement (basically repeated at the end of the intro and again in the discussion) is - in my opinion - too strong.

      We have revised the statement as suggested.

      Intro and later

      Within the wider literature on relative timing perception, the temporal order judgement (TOJ) task refers to a task with just two response options. Tasks with three response options, as employed here, are typically referred to as ternary judgments. I would suggest language consistent with the existing literature (or if not, the contrast to standard usage could be clarified).

      Ref: Ulrich, R. (1987). Threshold models of temporal-order judgments evaluated by a ternary response task. Percept. Psychophys., 42, 224-239.

      We revised the term for the task as suggested throughout the manuscript.

      Results, 2.2.2

      “However, temporal precision might not be due to the variability of arrival latency.” Indeed, although there is some recent evidence that it might be.

      Ref: Yarrow, K., Kohl, C, Segasby, T., Kaur Bansal, R., Rowe, P., & Arnold, D.H. Neural-latency noise places limits on human sensitivity to the timing of events. Cognition, 222, 105012 (2022).

      We included the reference as suggested (lines 245–248).

      Methods, 4.3.

      Should there be some information here about the order of adaptation sessions (e.g. random for each observer)?

      We added details about the order of testing to the Methods section (lines 456–457).

      Supplemental material section 1.

      Here, you test whether the changes resulting from recalibration look more like a shift of the entire psychometric function or an expansion of the psychometric function on one side (most straightforwardly compatible with a change of one decision criterion). Fine, but the way you have done this is odd, because you have introduced a further difference in the models (Gaussian vs. exponential latency noise) so that you cannot actually conclude that the trend towards a win for the bias-shift model is simply down to the bias vs. criterion difference. It could just as easily be down to the different shapes of psychometric functions that the two models can predict (with the exponential noise model permitting asymmetry in slopes). There seems to be no reason that this comparison cannot be made entirely within the exponential noise framework (by a very simple reparameterization that focuses on the two boundaries rather than the midpoint and extent of the decision window). Then, you would be focusing entirely on the question of interest. It would also equate model parameters, removing any reliance on asymptotic assumptions being met for AIC.

      We revised our exploration of atheoretical recalibration models. To summarize the results, we varied two model assumptions: 1) the use of either a Gaussian or an exponential measurement distribution, and 2) recalibration being implemented either as a shift of the cross-modal temporal bias or as a shift of the criterion. We fit each model separately to the ternary TOJ responses of all sessions. Bayesian model comparisons indicated that the bias-shift model with exponential measurement distributions best described the data of most participants.

      References

      Di Luca, M., Machulla, T.-K., & Ernst, M. O. (2009). Recalibration of multisensory simultaneity:

      cross-modal transfer coincides with a change in perceptual latency. Journal of Vision, 9(12), Article 7.

      Fujisaki, W., Shimojo, S., Kashino, M., & Nishida, S. ’ya. (2004). Recalibration of audiovisual simultaneity. Nature Neuroscience, 7(7), 773–778.

      Harrar, V., & Harris, L. R. (2005). Simultaneity constancy: detecting events with touch and vision. Experimental Brain Research. Experimentelle Hirnforschung. Experimentation Cerebrale, 166(3-4), 465–473.

      Hirsh, I. J., & Sherrick, C. E., Jr. (1961). Perceived order in different sense modalities. Journal of Experimental Psychology, 62(5), 423–432.

      Keetels, M., & Vroomen, J. (2007). No effect of auditory-visual spatial disparity on temporal recalibration. Experimental Brain Research. Experimentelle Hirnforschung. Experimentation Cerebrale, 182(4), 559–565.

      MacKay, D. J. (2003). Information theory, inference and learning algorithms.https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/document?repid=rep1&type=pdf&doi=201b835c3f3a3626ca07b e68cc28cf7d286bf8d5

      Navarra, J., Vatakis, A., Zampini, M., Soto-Faraco, S., Humphreys, W., & Spence, C. (2005). Exposure to asynchronous audiovisual speech extends the temporal window for audiovisual integration. Brain Research. Cognitive Brain Research, 25(2), 499–507.

      Tanaka, A., Asakawa, K., & Imai, H. (2011). The change in perceptual synchrony between auditory and visual speech after exposure to asynchronous speech. Neuroreport, 22(14), 684–688.

      Vatakis, A., Navarra, J., Soto-Faraco, S., & Spence, C. (2007). Temporal recalibration during asynchronous audiovisual speech perception. Experimental Brain Research. Experimentelle Hirnforschung. Experimentation Cerebrale, 181(1), 173–181.

      Vatakis, A., Navarra, J., Soto-Faraco, S., & Spence, C. (2008). Audiovisual temporal adaptation of speech: temporal order versus simultaneity judgments. Experimental Brain Research. Experimentelle Hirnforschung. Experimentation Cerebrale, 185(3), 521–529.

      Vroomen, J., Keetels, M., de Gelder, B., & Bertelson, P. (2004). Recalibration of temporal order perception by exposure to audio-visual asynchrony. Brain Research. Cognitive Brain Research, 22(1), 32–35.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer 1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript by Bimbard et al., a new method to perform stable recordings over long periods of time with neuropixels, as well as the technical details on how the electrodes can be explanted for follow-up reuse, is provided. I think the description of all parts of the method is very clear, and the validation analyses (n of units per day over time, RMS over recording days...) are very convincing. I however missed a stronger emphasis on why this could provide a big impact on the ephys community, by enabling new analyses, new behavior correlation studies, or neurophysiological mechanisms across temporal scales.

      Strengths:

      Open source method. Validation across laboratories. Across species (mice and rats) demonstration of its use and in different behavioral conditions (head-fixed and freely moving).

      Weaknesses:

      Weak emphasis on what can be enabled with this new method that didn't exist before.

      We thank the reviewer for highlighting the limited discussion around scientific impact. Our implant has several advantages which combine to make it much more accessible than previous solutions. This enables a variety of recording configurations that would not have been possible with previous designs, facilitating recordings from a wider range of brain regions, animals, and experimental setups. In short, there are three key advances which we now emphasise in the manuscript:

      Adaptability: The CAD files can be readily adapted to a wide range of configurations (implantation depth, angle, position of headstage, etc.). Labs have already modified the design for their needs, and re-shared with the community (Discussion, Para 5).

      Weight: Because of the lightweight design, experimenters can i) perform complex and demanding freely moving tasks as we exemplify in the manuscript, and ii) implant female and water restricted mice while respecting animal welfare weight limitations (Flexible design, Para 1).

      Cost: At ~$10, our implant is significantly cheaper than published alternatives, which makes it affordable to more labs and means that testing modifications is cost-effective (Discussion, Para 4).

      Reviewer 1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      - Differences between mice and rats seem very significant. Although this is probably not surprising, I suggest that the authors comment on this to make it clear to anyone trying to use in different species that are not quantified in the main figures.

      The reviewer is correct—there are qualitative differences between mice and rats, particularly with respect to the unit median amplitude. We have added a comment in the discussion to highlight these inter-species variations (Discussion, Para 7)

      - Another comment that would be useful to have would be how to tackle the problem of tracking the same neuron across days. Even if currently impossible, it could be useful to provide discussion along those lines as to where future improvements (either in hardware or software) can be made.

      We thank the reviewer for highlighting this. Figure. 5 does show data from tracking the same neuron across days (and even months). We have modified the language to make this clear.

      Reviewer 2 (Public Review):  

      Summary:

      This work by Bimbard et al., introduces a new implant for Neuropixels probes. While Neuropixels probes have critically improved and extended our ability to record the activity of a large number of neurons with high temporal resolution, the use of these expensive devices in chronic experiments has so far been hampered by the difficulty of safely implanting them and, importantly, to explant and reuse them after conclusion of the experiment. The authors present a newly designed two-part implant, consisting of a docking and a payload module, that allows for secure implantation and straightforward recovery of the probes. The implant is lightweight, making it amenable for use in mice and rats, and customizable. The authors provide schematics and files for printing of the implants, which can be easily modified and adapted to custom experiments by researchers with little to no design experience. Importantly, the authors demonstrate the successful use of this implant across multiple use cases, in head-fixed and freely moving experiments, in mice and rats, with different versions of Neuropixels probes, and across 8 different labs. Taken together, the presented implants promise to make chronic Neuropixel recordings and long-term studies of neuronal activity significantly easier and attainable for both current and future Neuropixels users.

      Strengths:

      The implants have been successfully tested across 8 different laboratories, in mice and rats, in headfixed and freely moving conditions, and have been adapted in multiple ways for a number of distinct experiments.

      Implants are easily customizable and the authors provide a straightforward approach for customization across multiple design dimensions even for researchers not experienced in design.

      The authors provide clear and straightforward descriptions of the construction, implantation, and explant of the described implants.

      The split of the implant into a docking and payload module makes reuse even in different experiments (using different docking modules) easy.

      The authors demonstrate that implants can be re-used multiple times and still allow for high-quality recordings.

      The authors show that the chronic implantations allow for the tracking of individual neurons across days and weeks (using additional software tracking solutions), which is critical for a large number of experiments requiring the description of neuronal activity, e.g. throughout learning processes.

      The authors show that implanted animals can even perform complex behavioral tasks, with no apparent reduction in their performance.

      Weaknesses:

      While implanted animals can still perform complex behavioral tasks, the authors describe that the implants may reduce the animals' mobility, as measured by prolonged reaction times. However, the presented data does not allow us to judge whether this effect is specifically due to the presented implant or whether any implant or just tethering of the animals per se would have the same effects.

      The reviewer is correct: some of the differences in mouse reaction time could be due to the tether rather than the implant. As these experiments were also performed in water-restricted female mice with the heavier Neuropixels 1.0 implant, our data represent the maximal impact of the implant, and we have highlighted this point in the revision (Freely behaving animals, Para 2).  

      While the authors make certain comparisons to other, previously published approaches for chronic implantation and re-use of Neuropixels probes, it is hard to make conclusive comparisons and judge the advantages of the current implant. For example, while the authors emphasize that the lower weight of their implant allows them to perform recordings in mice (and is surely advantageous), the previously described, heavier implants they mention (Steinmetz et al., 2021; van Daal et al., 2021), have also been used in mice. Whether the weight difference makes a difference in practice therefore remains somewhat unclear.

      The reviewer is correct: without a direct comparison, we cannot be certain that our smaller, lighter implant improves behavioural results (although this is supported by the literature, e.g. Newman et al, 2023). However, the reduced weight of our implant is critical for several laboratories represented in this manuscript due to animal welfare requirements. Indeed, in van Daal et al the authors “recommend a [mouse] weight of >25 g for implanting Neuropixels 1.0 probes.” This limit precludes using (the vast majority of) female mice, or water-restricted animals. Conversely, our implant can be routinely used with lighter, water-restricted male and female mice. We emphasised this point in the revision (Discussion, Para 2).

      The non-permanent integration of the headstages into the implant, while allowing for the use of the same headstage for multiple animals in parallel, requires repeated connections and does not provide strong protection for the implant. This may especially be an issue for the use in rats, requiring additional protective components as in the presented rat experiments.

      We apologise for not clarifying the various headstage holder options in the manuscript and we have now addressed this in the revision (Freely behaving animals, Para 1&2). Our repository has headstage holder designs (in the XtraModifications/Mouse_FreelyMoving folder). This allows leaving the headstage on the implant, and thus minimize the number of connections (albeit increasing the weight for the mouse). Indeed, mice recorded while performing the task described in our manuscript had the head-stage semi-permanently integrated to the implant, and we now highlight this in the revision (Freely behaving animals, Para 1).

      Reviewer 2 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      The description of the different versions of the head-stage holders should be more clear, listing also advantages/disadvantages of the different solutions. It would be also useful if the authors could comment on the use of these head-stage holders in rats, since they do not seem to offer much protection.

      We thank the reviewer for this point, and we have added notes to the manuscript to clarify the various advantages of the different headstage-holders, and that the headstage can be permanently attached to the implant (Freely behaving animals, Para 1&2). This is the primary advantage of these solutions compared with the minimal implant—at the expense of increasing the implant weight.  

      The reviewer’s concerns regarding the lack of protection for implants in rats is well-placed, and we now emphasise that these experiments benefited from the additional protection of an external 3D casing, which is likely critical for use in larger animals (Freely behaving animals, Para 1).

      While re-used probes seem to show similar yields across multiple uses (Figure 4C), it seems as if there is a much higher variability of the yield for probes that are used for the first (maybe also second) time. There are probes with much higher than average yields, but it seems none of the re-used probes show such high yields. Is this a real effect? Is this because the high-yield probes happened to have not been used multiple times? Is there an analysis the authors could provide to reduce the concern that yields may generally be lower for re-used probes/that there are no very high yields for re-used probes?

      We understand the reviewer’s concern with respect to Figure 4C, however, the re-use of any given probe was determined only by the experimental needs of the project. It is therefore not possible that there is a relationship between probes selected for re-use and unit-yield. We now specify this in the revised legend of Figure 4C. This variability (and the consistency in yield across uses) likely stems from differences between labs, brain region, and implantation protocol.

      The authors claim that a 'large fraction' of units could be tracked for the entire duration of the experiment (Figure 5A,B). They mention in the discussion that quantification can be found in a different manuscript (van Beest et al., 2023), but this should also be quantified here in at least some more detail, also for other animals in addition to the one mouse which was recorded for ~100 days. What fraction can be held for different durations? What is the average holding time, etc.?

      We agree with the reviewer, and have now added new panels quantifying the probability and reliability of tracking a neuron across days (Figure 5E-F). We also comment on the change in tracking probability across time, and its variability across recordings (Stability, Para 4).

      Reviewer 3 (Public Reviews):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, Bimbard and colleagues describe a new implant apparatus called "Apollo Implant", which should facilitate recording in freely moving rodents (mice and rats) using Neuropixels probes. The authors collected data from both mice and rats, they used 3 different versions of Neuropixels, multiple labs have already adopted this method, which is impressive. They openly share their CAD designs and surgery protocol to further facilitate the adaptation of their method.

      Strengths:

      Overall, the "Apollo Implant" is easy to use and adapt, as it has been used in other laboratories successfully and custom modifications are already available. The device is reproducible using common 3D printing services and can be easily modified thanks to its CAD design (the video explaining this is extremely helpful). The weight and price are amazing compared to other systems for rigid silicon probes allowing a wide range of use of the "Apollo Implant".

      Weaknesses:

      The "Apollo Implant" can only handle Neuropixels probes. It cannot hold other widely used and commercially available silicon probes. Certain angles and distances are not possible in their current form (distance between probes 1.8 to 4mm, implantation depth 2-6.5 mm, or angle of insertion up to 20 degrees).

      As we now discuss in the manuscript (Discussion, Para 4), one implant accommodating the diversity of the existing probes is beyond the scope of this project. However, because the design is adaptable, groups should be able to modify the current version of the implant to adapt to their electrodes’ size and format (and can highlight any issues in the Github “Discussions” area).

      With Neuropixels, the current range of depths covers practically all trajectories in the mouse brain. In rats, where deeper penetrations may be useful, the experimenter can attach the probe at a lower point in the payload module to expose more of the shank. We now specify this in the Github repository.  

      We have now extended the range of inter-probe distances from a maximum of 4 mm to 6.5 mm. Distances beyond this may be better served by 2 implants, and smaller distances could be achieved by attaching two probes on the same side of the docking module. These points are now specified in the revised manuscript (Flexible design, Para 2).

      Reviewer 3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I have only a few questions and suggestions:

      Is it possible to create step-by-step instructions for explantation (similar to Figure-1 with CAD schematics)? You mention that payload holder is attached to a micromanipulator, but it is unclear how this is achieved. How was the payload secured with a screw (which screw)? My understanding is that as you turn the screw in the payload holder, it will grab onto the payload module from both sides, but the screw is not in contact with the payload module, correct? I found the screw type on your GitHub, but it would be great if you could add a bill of materials in a table format, so readers don't have to jump between GitHub and article.

      We have now added a bill of materials to the revised manuscript (Implant design and materials, Para 2), although up-to-date links are still provided on the Github repository due to changing availability.

      What happens if you do a dual probe implant and cannot avoid blood vessels in one or both of the craniotomies due to the pre-defined geometry? Is this a frequent issue? How can you overcome this during the surgery?

      Blood vessels can be difficult to avoid in some cases, but we are typically able to rotate/reposition the probes to solve this issue. In some cases, with 4-shank probes, the blood vessel can be positioned between individual probe shanks. We now detail this in the revised manuscript (Assembly and implantation, Para 3).

      I assume if the head is not aligned (line-332) the probe can break during recovery. Have you experienced this during explanation?

      As we now specify in the manuscript (Explantation, Para 2), we are careful when explanting the probe to avoid this issue, and due to the flexibility of the shanks, it does not appear to be a major concern.

      Why did you remove the UV glue (line 435)? How can you level the skull? I assume you have covered bregma and lambda in the first surgery which can create an uneven surface to measure even after you remove the UV glue.

      We thank the reviewer for highlighting this omission from the methods. We now explain (Implantation, Carandini-Harris laboratory) that the UV-glue is completely removed during the second surgery, and the skull is cleaned and scored. This improves the adhesion of the dental cement, and allows for reliable levelling of the skull.

      In line 112 you mentioned that the number of recorded neurons was stable; however, you found a 3% mean decrease in unit count per day (line 120). Stability is great until day 10 (in Figure 4A), but it deteriorates quickly after that. I think it would help readers if you could add the mean{plus minus}SEM of recorded units in the text for days 1-10, days 11-50, and days 51-100 (using the data from Figure 4A).

      We have now added Supplementary Figure 4 to show unit count across bins of days, and a corresponding comment in the text (Stability, Para 2).

      A full survey of the probe (Figure 4B) means that you recorded neuronal activity across 4-5000 channels (depending on how many channels were in the brain). While it is clear that a full probe survey can reduce the number of animals needed for a study, it is also clear in this figure that by day 25 you can record ~300 neurons on 4000 channels. It would be great to discuss this in the discussion and give a balanced view of the long-term stability of these recordings.

      Overall, keeping a large number of units for a long time still remains a challenge. Here, we could record on average 85 neurons per bank during the first 10 days, and then only 45 after 50 days. It is important to note that our quantification averages across all banks recorded, including those in a ventricle or partly outside of the brain. Thus, our results represent a lower estimate of the total neurons recorded. Our new Supplementary Figure 4 helps to highlight the diversity of neuron number recorded per animal. Further improvements in surgical techniques and spike sorting will likely improve stability further and we have now added this comment in the manuscript (Stability, Para 2). For example, we observed excellent stability in a mouse where the craniotomy was stabilized with KwikSil (Supplementary Figure 5).

      The RMS value was around 20 uV in some of the recordings, and according to Figure 4G it is around 16 uV on average. Is it safe to accept putative single units with 20 uV amplitudes, when the baseline noise level is this close to the spike peak-to-peak amplitude?

      On average, less than 1% of the units selected using all the other metrics except the amplitude had an amplitude below 30 µV, and 2.6% below 50 µV. Increasing the threshold to 30 µV, or even 50 µV, did not affect the results. We have now added this comment in the Methods (Data processing, Para 3).

      Can you add the waveform and ISIH of the example unit from day 106 to Figure 5?

      We have now added 4 units tracked up to day 106 in Figure 5.  

      Could you move Supplementary Figure 3A to Figure 4? The number of units is more valuable information than the RMS noise level. I understand that you don't have such a nice coverage of all the days as in Figure 3 and 4, but you might be able to group for the first 3 days and the last 3 days (and if data is available, the middle 3 days) as a boxplot. The goal would be for the reader to be able to see whether there is any change in the number of single units over time.

      We agree with the reviewer, the number of units is more valuable. We had included this information in Figure 4A-F, but we have made edits to the text to make it clearer that this is what is being shown. The data from Figure 3A is already contained within Figure 4, but in 3A the data is separated by individual labs.

      Product numbers are missing in multiple places: line-285 (screw), line-288 (screw), line-290 (screw), line-309 (manipulator), line-374 (gold pin and silver wire), line-384 (Mill-Max), line-394 (silver wire), and many more. It would be great if you could add all these details, so people can replicate your protocol.

      We thank the reviewer for highlighting this, and we have added details of screw thread-size and length to relevant parts of the manuscript, although any type of screw can be used. Similarly, other components are non-specific (e.g. multiple silver-wire diameters were used across labs), so we have not included specific product numbers for general consumer items (like screws and silver wires) to avoid indicating that a specific part must be purchased.

      While it is great to see lab-specific methods, I am not sure in their current form it helps to understand the protocol better. The information is conveyed in different ways (I assume these were written by different people), in different orders, and in different depths (some mention probe implant location relative to bregma and midline, some don't). There are many different glues, epoxies, cement, wires, and pins. I would recommend rewriting these methods sections under a unified template, so it is easier to follow.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion and we have rewritten this section of the methods accordingly. We now use a template structure to simplify the comparisons between labs: the same template is used for each lab in each section (payload module assembly, implantation, and data acquisition).

      Line-307: why is a skull screw optional for grounding? What did you use for ground and reference if not a ground screw?

      We now specify in the manuscript that during head-fixed experiments, the animal’s headplate can be used for grounding, and combined with internal referencing provided by the Neuropixels, yielded lownoise recordings (Implantation protocol, Methods).

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Parsing speech into meaningful linguistic units is a fundamental yet challenging task that infants face while acquiring the native language. Computing transitional probabilities (TPs) between syllables is a segmentation cue well-attested since birth. In this research, the authors examine whether newborns compute TPs over any available speech feature (linguistic and non-linguistic), or whether by contrast newborns favor computation of TPs over linguistic content over non-linguistic speech features such as speaker voice. Using EEG and the artificial language learning paradigm, they record the neural responses of two groups of newborns presented with speech streams in which either phonetic content or speaker voice are structured to provide TPs informative of word boundaries, while the other dimension provides uninformative information. They compare newborns' neural responses to these structured streams to their processing of a stream in which both dimensions vary randomly. After the random and structured familiarization streams, the newborns are presented with (pseudo)words as defined by their informative TPs, as well as partwords (that is, sequences that straddle a word boundary), extracted from the same streams. Analysis of the neural responses show that while newborns neural activity entrained to the syllabic rate (2 Hz) when listening to the random and structured streams, it additionally entrained at the word rate (4 Hz) only when listening to the structured streams, finding no differential response between the streams structured around voice or phonetic information. Newborns showed also different neural activity in response to the words and part words. In sum, the study reveals that newborns compute TPs over linguistic and non-linguistic features of speech, these are calculated independently, and linguistic features do not lead to a processing advantage.

      Strengths:

      This interesting research furthers our knowledge of the scope of the statistical learning mechanism, which is confirmed to be a general-purpose powerful tool that allows humans to extract patterns of co-occurring events while revealing no apparent preferential processing for linguistic features. To answer its question, the study combines a highly replicated and well-established paradigm, i.e. the use of an artificial language in which pseudowords are concatenated to yield informative TPs to word boundaries, with a state-of-the-art EEG analysis, i.e. neural entrainment. The sample size of the groups is sufficient to ensure power, and the design and analysis are solid and have been successfully employed before.

      Weaknesses:

      There are no significant weaknesses to signal in the manuscript. However, in order to fully conclude that there is no obvious advantage for the linguistic dimension in neonates, future studies should pit both dimensions against each other, to determine whether statistical learning weighs linguistic and non-linguistic features equally, or whether phonetic content is preferentially processed.

      To sum up, the authors achieved their central aim of determining whether TPs are computed over both linguistic and non-linguistic features, and their conclusions are supported by the results. This research is important for researchers working on language and cognitive development, and language processing, as well as for those working on cross-species comparative approaches.

      Comments on revisions:

      The authors have addressed my suggestions. I have no further comments.

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Numerous mechanism and structural studies reported the cooperative role of Oct4 and Sox2 during the establishment of pluripotency during reprogramming. Due to the difficulty in sample collection and RNA-seq with low-number cells, the precise mechanisms remain in early embryos. This manuscript reported the role of OCT4 and SOX2 in mouse early embryos using knockout models with low-input ATAC-seq and RNA-seq. Compared to the control, chromatin accessibility and transcriptome were affected when Oct4 and Sox2 were deleted in early ICM. Specifically, decreased ATAC-seq peaks showed enrichment of Motifs of TF such as OCT, SOX, and OCT-SOX, indicating their importance during early development. Moreover, by deep analysis of ATAC-seq and RNA-seq data, they found Oct4 and Sox2 target enhancer to activate their downstream genes. In addition, they also uncovered the role of OS during development from the morula to ICM, which provided the scientific community with a more comprehensive understanding.

      Strengths:

      On the whole, the manuscript is innovative, and the conclusions of this paper are mostly well supported by data.

      Weaknesses:

      Major Points:<br /> (1) In Figure 1, a more detailed description of the knockout strategy should be provided to clarify itself. The knockout strategy in Fig1 is somewhat obscure, such as how is OCT4 inactivated in Oct4mKO2 heterozygotes. As shown in Figure 1, the exon of OCT4 is not deleted, and its promoter is not destroyed. Therefore, how does OCT4 inactivate to form heterozygotes?<br /> (2) Is ZP 3-Cre expressed in the zygotes? Is there any residual protein?<br /> (3) What motifs are enriched in the rising ATAC-seq peaks after knocking out of OCT4 and SOX2?<br /> (4) The ordinate of Fig4c is lost.<br /> (5) Signals of H3K4me1, H3K27ac, and so on are usually used to define enhancers, and the loci of enhancers vary greatly in different cells. In the manuscript, the authors defined ATAC-seq peaks far from the TSS as enhancers. The definition in this manuscript is not strictly an enhancer.<br /> (6) If Oct4 and Sox2 truly activate sap 30 and Uhrf 1, what effect does interfering with both genes have on gene expression and chromatin accessibility?

      Comments on revisions:

      The authors have addressed my concerns so I am fine with revision in principle.

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This noteworthy paper examines the role of planar cell polarity and Wnt signalling in the body axis formation of the hydrozoan Clytia. In contrast to the freshwater polyp Hydra or the sea anemone Nematostella, Clytia represents a cnidarian model system with a complete life cycle (planula-polyp-medusa). In this species, classical experiments have demonstrated that a global polarity is established from the oral end of the embryos (Freeman, 1981). Prior research has demonstrated that Wnt3 plays a role in the formation of the oral organiser in Clytia and other cnidarians, acting in an autocatalytic feedback loop with β-catenin. However, the question of whether and to what extent an oral-aboral gradient of Wnt activity is established remained unanswered. This gradient is thought to control both tissue differentiation and tissue polarity. The planar cell polarity (PCP) pathway has been linked to this polarity, although it is generally considered to be β-catenin independent.

      The authors have conducted a series of sophisticated experiments utilising morpholinos, mRNA microinjection, and immunofluorescent visualisation of PCP. The objective of these experiments was to address the function of Wnt3, β-catenin, and PCP core proteins in the coordination of the global polarity of Clytia embryos. The authors conclude that PCP plays a role in regulating polarity along the oral-aboral axis of embryos and larvae. This offers a conceivable explanation for how polarity information is established and distributed globally during Clytia embryogenesis, with implications for our understanding of axis formation in cnidarians and the evolution of Wnt signalling in general. While the experiments are well-designed and executed, there are some criticisms, questions, or suggestions that should be addressed.

      Comments:

      Beautiful and solid experiments to clarify the role of canonical Wnt signalling and PCP core factors in coordinating planar cell polarity. However, there are also several points that should be addressed.

      (1) Wnt3 cue and global PCP. PCP has been described in detail in a previous paper on Clytia (Momose et al, 2012): its orientation along the oral-aboral body axis (ciliary basal body positioning studies), and its function in directional polarity during gastrulation (Stbm-, Fz1-, and Dsh-MO experiments). I wonder if this part could be shortened. What is new, however, are the knockdown and Wnt3-mRNA rescue experiments, which provide a deeper insight into the link between Wnt3 function in the blastopore organiser as a source or cue for axis formation. These experiments demonstrate that the Wnt3 knockdown induces defects equivalent to PCP factor knockdown, but can be rescued by Wnt3-mRNA injection, even at a distance of 200 µm away from the Wnt-positive area. The experimental set-up of these new molecular experiments follows in important aspects those of Freeman's experiments of 1981 (who in turn was motivated to re-examine Teissier's work of 1931/1933 ...). Freeman did not use the term "global polarity" but the concept of an axis-inducing source and a long-range tissue polarity can be traced back to both researchers.

      (2) PCP propagation and β-catenin. The central but unanswered question in this study focuses on the interaction between Wnt3 and PCP and the propagation of PCP. Wnt3 has been described in cnidarians but also in vertebrates and insects as a canonical Wnt interacting with β-catenin in an autocatalytic loop. The surprising result of this study is that the action of Wnt3 on PCP orientation is not inhibited in the presence of a dominant-negative form of CheTCF (dnTCF) ruling out a potential function of β-catenin in PCP. This was supported by studies with constitutively active β-catenin (CA-β-cat) mRNA which was unable to restore PCP coordination nor elongation of Wnt3-depleted embryos but did restore β-catenin-dependent gastrulation. Based on these data, the authors conclude that Wnt3 has two independent roles: Wnt/β-catenin activation and initial PCP orientation (two-step model for PCP formation). However, the molecular basis for the interaction of Wnt3 with the PCP machinery and how the specificity of Wnt3 for both pathways is regulated at the level of Wnt-receiving cells (Fz-Dsh) remain unresolved. Also, with respect to PCP propagation, there is no answer with respect to the underlying mechanisms. The authors found that PCP components are expressed in the mid-blastula stage, but without any further indication of how the signal might be propagated, e.g., by a wavefront of local cell alignment. Here, it is necessary to address the underlying possible cellular interactions more explicitly.

      (3) The proposed two-step model for PCP formation has important evolutionary implications in that it excludes the current alternate model according to which a long-range Wnt3-gradient orients PCP ("Wnt/β-catenin-first"). Nevertheless, the initial PCP orientation by Wnt3 - as proposed in the two-step model - is not explained at all on the molecular level. Another possible, but less well-discussed and studied option for linking Wnt3 with PCP action could be the role of other Wnt pathways. The authors present compelling evidence that Wnt3 is the most highly expressed Wnt in Clytia at all stages of development. The authors convincingly show that Wnt3 is the most highly expressed Wnt in Clytia at all stages of development (Figure S1). However, Wnt7 is also more highly expressed, which makes it a candidate for signal transduction from canonical Wnts to PCP Wnts. An involvement of Wnt7 in PCP regulation has been described in vertebrates (http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.celrep.2013.12.026). This would challenge the entire discussion and speculation on the evolutionary implications according to which PCP Wnt signaling comes first (PCP-first scenario") and canonical Wnt signaling later in metazoan evolution.

      (4) The discussion, including Figure 6, is strongly biased towards the traditional evolutionary scenario postulating a choanzoan-sponge ancestry of metazoans. Chromosome-linkage data of pre-metazoans and metazoans (Schulz et al., 2023; https://doi.org/10 (1038/s41586-023-05936-6) now indicate a radically different scenario according to which ctenophores represent the ancestral form and are sister to sponges, cnidarians and bilaterians (the Ctenophora-sister hypothesis). This has also implications for the evolution of Wnt signalling, as discussed in the recent Nature Genetics Review by Holzem et al. (2024) (https://doi.org/10.1038/s41576-024-00699-w). Furthermore, it calls into question the hypothesis of a filter-feeding multicellular gastrula-like ancestor as proposed by Haeckel (Maegele et al., 2023). These papers have not yet been referenced, but they would provide a more robust discussion.

    1. 1966 started the project arpanet

      computers will never talk to each other

      ATT lab node in the network

      interactive computer network

      packet switching won't work

      four years later

      at SRI

      manager NASA support

      tallk to you about doug why are you plugging him

      he is trying to do something important

      believe in it

      2:10 ???

      obstacles of all sorts

      interactive computing augment system

      within that community

      pecking order

      bottom of that pecking order

      before the demo

      encourage him to do the demo

      huge display

      transport between menlo park

      do not worry about the cost

      year or two after the demo

      4

      contracting officer

      ependitures

      seen the budget for the demo

      if this comes off I will deny knowing anything about it

  6. social-media-ethics-automation.github.io social-media-ethics-automation.github.io
    1. Caroline Delbert. Some People Think 2+2=5, and They’re Right. Popular Mechanics, October 2023. URL: https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/math/a33547137/why-some-people-think-2-plus-2-equals-5/ (visited on 2023-11-24).

      In the article "Why Some People Think 2+2=5" by Caroline Delbert, published in Popular Mechanics in October 2023, the author explores scenarios where the equation 2+2 might equal 5, challenging conventional arithmetic. The piece delves into mathematical abstractions and real-world applications, highlighting that while 2+2=4 in standard arithmetic, certain contexts or definitions might lead to different interpretations.

      The article references a discussion initiated by Kareem Carr, a biostatistics Ph.D. student at Harvard University, who stated, "I don’t know who needs to hear this, but if someone says 2+2=5, the correct response is, 'What are your definitions and axioms?' not a rant about the decline of Western civilization." This emphasizes the importance of understanding underlying assumptions and definitions in mathematical statements.

    1. mu⁄n ....................................................2. violin ....................................................3. freedom ....................................................4. elegance ....................................................5. train ....................................................More practice (answers on the website)6. friend ......................................................7. friendliness ......................................................8. economics ......................................................9. dormitory ......................................................10. capitalism ..........................................

      muffin - concrete violin - concrete freedom - abstract elegance - abstract train - concrete friend - concrete friendliness - abstract economics - abstract dormitory - concrete capitalism - abstract

    2. . tree ................... ...................2. when ................... ...................3. beds ................... ...................4. glass ................... ...................5. said ................... ...................More practice (answers on the website)6. slowly ................... ...................7. factory ................... ...................8. ticket ................... ...................9. boxes ................... ...................10. almost ................... ...........

      tree - noun when - not noun beds - noun glass - noun said - not noun slowly - not noun factory - noun ticket - noun boxes - noun almost not noun

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      Reply to the reviewers

      Reviewer 1

      Comment 1: A gallery of different cell cycle stages should be included to define KDM4A centrosomal localization at G1, S and G2 phases and whether it is localized to duplicating centrosomes.

      Response: We thank the reviewer for this excellent suggestion. We have now included Fig S1H demonstrating the persistence/retention of KDM4A at the centrosome through the cell cycle. The text in the Results section has been updated to reflect this addition.

      Comment 2: The immunoprecipitations in Fig. 1 and Supp. Fig. 1 must include appropriate controls. There is no positive control in Fig. 1E and the negative controls for the tagged pulldowns are not appropriate in that there is no other HA-tagged protein in cells. Antibody controls and the reciprocal immunoprecipitations should also be included in the same figure (with controls).

      Response: To address the first point, we have included Histone H3 as a positive control for the KDM4A antibody in Figures 1E and 1F. As for the second point raised by the reviewer, the empty vector is an HA-tagged empty vector and so the antibody controls are already included in the Figure as the ‘empty vector’. We have now included detailed information in the Figure legend to clarify the same. In addition, as suggested by the reviewer we have moved the reverse IPs to the main Figure 1 (Figures 1G and 1I).

      Comment 3: Fig. 1H: The use of overexpressed GFP-centrin for immunoprecipitations is questionable; centrin overexpression can cause centrosome amplification, so the level of centrin relative to the endogenous level should be demonstrated.

      Response: This is with regards to the renumbered Fig. 1J. We have generated hTERT RPE-1 GFP-Centrin expressing stable cell lines that were used for our studies. This is a commonly used cell line in the field and although transient over-expression of GFP-centrin does cause centrosome defects, stable cells are less likely to have elevated centrosome defects. Importantly, the concern of overamplification of centrosomes in these cells is less of a concern given that we have only used these cells to validate the localization of KDM4A to centrosomes using centrin as a centrosome marker. Nonetheless, to ensure that we do not have an aberrant increase in centrosome defects in these cells we have included IF images of our cells (green channel in low-mag and high-mag images below) and are happy to report that we did not observe significantly elevated incidence of centrosome amplification in these stable cell lines.

      Comment 4: The precise localization of KDM4A should be determined more clearly with respect to known centrosomal structures/ regions. One would speculate a PCM localization from the data presented here, but the use of centrobin as a marker does not allow the mother centriole's location to be determined with great clarity. It is unclear why the authors chose centrobin as a marker; further explanation of this might be helpful to the reader. Centrobin is usually cited as a daughter centriole marker (PMID: 16275750, but see 29440264). Supp. Fig. 3J appears to shows 2centrioles labelled with centrobin but the paper does not specify whether centrobin is chosen as a daughter marker or otherwise.

      Response: We thank the reviewer for this astute observation. Our initial rationale for choosing centrobin was simply to use a centrosome marker that worked robustly and reliably with minimal background staining, essential for the single-molecule super-resolution imaging. The question we wanted to address was generating a geographic region in the cell showing nano-scale localization of KDM4A. The 2D images shown in Fig. 2 can be understandably static and hard to visualize the 3D distribution of KDM4A which is not exclusive to centrioles (centrobin although more daughter centriole, does show weaker signal at the mother centriole as well). We have now extensively re-worked Figure 2, including the inclusion of a video in Supplemental Information. We have now included new nano-scale imaging of KDM4A with g-tubulin (a more traditional centrosome marker), which shows a similar distribution of KDM4A across the centrosome and have also included distribution measurements along the x- and y-axis showing both KDM4A and centrobin/g-tubulin. We have modified the text to refer to centrobin as a centrosome marker (centrobin as the reviewer rightly noted can localize to both centrioles although predominantly at the daughter centriole).

      Comment 5: Related to this localization issue, Fig. 2D is unclear to this reviewer. What is this normalized to- a marker or just a set of coordinates? This is an unusual means of representing a localization that does not help the reader understand the (sub-) centrosomal location of KDM4A. The analysis in Supp. Fig. 4 is of somewhat limited value and might be omitted.

      __Response: __We apologize for the confusion with the Figure and have simplified the graphs to indicate the single-molecule distribution plotted along the x- and y-axis showing both KDM4A and the centrosome markers i.e. centrobin and g-tubulin.

      Comment 6: Fig. 3 shows the amplification of gamma-tubulin signals, but there is no control for cell cycle stage. The Kdm4a knockout cells appear to be twice the size of the controls, suggesting a G2 phase arrest, which can potentiate centrosome overduplication, or cytokinetic failure in a previous cell cycle (this may also be the case in Figs. 6C and 7B). Therefore, these cells should be phenotyped more robustly with respect to their proliferative characteristics and cell cycle phase distribution. Cell cycle phenotypes should also be checked in the rescue experiments.

      Response: We thank the reviewer for the comments above. The cells shown in Fig. 3 are interphase cells evaluated for centrosome numbers in Kdm4a-deficient cells, independent of mitosis. We apologize for the lack of clarity and the confusion generated by our erroneous statement at the beginning of the paragraph “we next investigated a functional role for KDM4A at mitotic centrosomes”. In fact, we started by first evaluating interphase cells to interrogate consequences of losing Kdm4a, followed by evaluations of the mitotic phenotypes once we observed increased centrosome numbers. This error has now been corrected in the Results.

      As for the reviewer’s comment on phenotyping the cells further, we have now performed these evaluations and have included them in Figure 3 (as new panels Figures 3D, 3E, 3F). Our MTT proliferation assays showed the Kdm4a-null cells proliferated slower than control non-targeted MEFs, although this did not result in any significant issues with cell cycle progression with both cell lines progressing without any arrests and importantly without accumulating increased DNA content/aneuploidy. The rescue cell lines were also phenotyped (new Figures 7C, 7D and 7E) and similarly did not show any altered cell cycle progression.

      Comment 7: Related to the previous point, in the DAPI staining in Figure 5A, 'pseudo-bipolar' cells #1 and #3 (from the top) seem to have greatly increased levels of DNA, suggesting failed cytokinesis as a mechanism of centrosome abnormality. This is a very different process to a centrosome overduplication within a single cell cycle; given that these are knockouts, it is not clear what conclusions should be drawn from the current analysis.

      Response: The reviewer makes an excellent point, about the increased centrosome numbers arising from failure to complete cytokinesis. We have performed further phenotyping of the Kdm4a-null cells, included as new Figures 3D, 3E and 3F. Although the Kdm4a-deficient cells grew slower than their Kdm4a-proficient counterparts, there were no significant issues with cell cycle progression and importantly no evidence of increased aneuploidy. We have also now performed further analysis using centrin as a centriole marker to quantify centrosome numbers (new Figures 4C, 4D and 4E) and have found that there is a significant increase in disjointed centrioles (Figure 4E) suggesting that in addition to any potential amplification there also appears to be an increased loss of cohesion in cells deficient for KDM4A. We have also further confirmed presence of single/disjointed centrioles using TEM analysis (new Figure 4F)

      Comment 8: The JIB-04 result may suggest that KDM4A inhibition causes fragmentation of spindle poles, given that it is a relatively short treatment that would probably not be long enough for centrosome overduplication. Whether this arises during M phase, distinct from the over duplication phenotype seen where there are >4 centrioles, should be posed as a separate question- these may be distinct outcomes from KMD4A inhibition at different cell cycle times.

      Response: We completely agree with the reviewer that the JIB-04 treatment is relatively short and does in fact suggest that this is independent of any over duplication phenotype observed in the Kdm4a-CRISPR knockouts. We thank the reviewer for the suggestion of posing two separate questions to address this point and have made the changes in the manuscript (see Results). In addition, our new data discussed in Comment 7 above, corroborates this hypothesis.

      Comment 9: It is unclear why the authors call the cell shown in Fig. 4B 'pseudo-bipolar'- there are clearly four poles here (as in the multipolar example shown in Fig 5A). This makes the data in Fig. 5 difficult to interpret. The authors should review their classification.

      Response: We thank the reviewer for catching this error. We apologize for the misrepresentation of the representative image and have now included the correct image that shows pseudo-bipolar spindles (new Figure 5D) replacing the multipolar spindle. In addition, we have reviewed our data and the quantitation remains unchanged.

      Comment 10: Expression of the vector control in the Kdm4a nulls in Fig. 7A appears to show a decline in the H3K36me3 levels, confusing the outcome of this experiment. Quantitation should be provided for these blots.

      Response: We have now included the requested quantitation (new Figure 7B) for Figure 7A.

      Comment 11: A rescue experiment should be included for the siRNA knockdown of KDM4A.

      Response: A rescue experiment with the siRNA experiments is challenging as we use a pooled siRNA (4 siRNAs) targeting KDM4A. Rescue with a KDM4A construct would result in the knockdown of the exogenously expressed KDM4A as well. The rescue experiments have been therefore performed with the CRISPR knockout cell lines.

      Comment 12: Size markers should be shown in all immunoblots.

      Response: We have now included size markers as requested by the reviewer for all Figures showing immunoblots (Figures 1, 5, 7 and Supplementary Figures 1, 5).

      Comment 13: p.6, 11 'the resulting payment' and 'caustic chromosome environment' are strange usages and should be rephrased.

      Response: The text has been rephrased.

      Comment 14: Are all panels shown at the same magnification in Fig. 1B? (The telophase DAPI appears different to the anaphase)

      Response: We have confirmed that the magnification is the consistent across the entire panel of images in Figure 1.

      Comment 15: Blow-up panels should be shown so that the centrosomes can be visualised more clearly (Fig. 1 and Supp. Fig. 1).

      Response: We have now included blow-up panels for all centrosome images in Figure 1 and Supplemental Figure 1.

      Comment 16: The MT labelling in Fig. 1D is not of good quality; this imaging should be improved.

      Response: We believe that microtubule densities are impacted by modulating KDM4A in cells likely arising from alternate mechanisms that we are currently investigating. However, to the reviewer’s point we have placed the transient overexpression images in Supplementary information (Supplemental Figure 1I) and have replaced with new Figure 1D, using our stable clones expressing RFP-vector or RFP-KDM4A.

      Reviewer 2

      Comment 1: Coimmunoprecipitation and GFP-trap analyses demonstrated interactions between KDM4A and centrobin, CP110, and centrin-2 (Fig. 1). While the authors suggest a functional a functional association with the centrosome, it is noteworthy that no known centriole protein has been identified to interact simultaneously with centrobin, CP110, and centrin-2, located in distinct sub-centriolar regions. Additionally, 3D super-resolution microscopy indicates that KDM4A is not restrained to a particular region of the centrosome, surely not at the centriole (Fig. 4D). These results hint that centrobin, CP110 and centrin-2 may be potential substrates of KDM4A. Therefore, it is worth to conduct immunostaining and coimmunoprecipitation analyses with the JIB-04-treated cells.

      Response: The reviewer makes an excellent point. The co-immunoprecipitation studies were not conducted to show a direct interaction between the centrosome proteins and KDM4A, but more as a proof-of principle that KDM4A is interacting with centrosome proteins (we do not know if this is direct or indirect, although the data would likely suggest an indirect mechanism). Given that we had used centrobin, centrin and CP110 in our immunofluorescence analysis we also used them for our co-IP studies to provide further evidence of a centrosome localization for KDM4A. It is intriguing that any one of these proteins could in fact be substrates for KDM4A, although an in-depth study would be required to prove this since the super-resolution localization would suggest that KDM4A is not at the centrioles per se and is in fact more of a pericentriolar protein. We have clarified this point in the Discussion. Although the experiments suggested with the JIB treatment would be intriguing, identifying a bone fide centrosome substrate for KDM4A’s demethylase activity is not trivial and would require identification of methylation on a substrate followed by then determining if KDM4A can demethylate the target. Methylation on non-chromatin substrates such as centrosome proteins is not currently well characterized.

      Comment 2: The generation supernumerary centrioles in Kdm4a KO MEFs is intriguing yet warrants careful description (Fig. 3). First, supernumerary centrioles should be coimmunostained with multiple centriole markers, such as centrin-2, CP110 and centrobin antibodies at synchronized populations such as G1, S and M phases. Second, the number of centrioles per cells may be counted and statistically analyzed.

      Response: We thank the reviewer for making this suggestion. We have now included new Figures 4C, 4D, 4E and 4F where we show immunofluorescence with Centrin 2 in Kdm4a-deficient cells. Having found an increased incidence of unpaired centrioles in cells deficient for Kdm4a we have further performed TEM to show the presence of these unpaired/disjoint centrioles.

      Comment 3: The high proportion of pseudo-bipolar cells in the NT group requires attention (Fig. 5).

      Response: We thank the reviewer for this astute observation. To obtain enough mitotic cells for analysis we synchronized the MEFs, which appeared to increase the baseline of pseudo-bipolar spindles reflected in the quants. Despite this increase the differential between the controls and Kdm4a-null cells is significant, as indicated, and we have now made this evident in the text for clarity.

      Comment 4: The KO-rescue cells should be valuable tools to confirm specific roles of KDM4A at the centrosome (Fig. 7). The authors may generate stable cell lines in which wild type and H188A mutant KDM4A are expressed in the KO cells, and use them for centrosome localization of the ectopic proteins, spindle formation and supernumerary centriole generation.

      Response: The reviewer makes an excellent point and in fact we generated the stables (Figure 7) with this idea in mind. Unfortunately (but not completely surprising as this is frequently observed in comparable settings) we observed decreased mitotic abnormalities and genomic instability in the Kdm4a-null cells over time in culture. This is likely arising from a compensatory mechanism/redundancy that perhaps kicks in to enable survival of these cells. The process of generating the stables was therefore tricky with us only being able to reliably analyze genomic stability as a downstream readout of mitotic abnormalities that might have occurred in these cells (early passages analyzed for genomic stability).

      Reviewer 3

      Comment 1: Figure 1D: the RFP vector alone localizes to the centrosome. How was the signal across the cells? Can the authors provide a fluorescence intensity measurement comparing the negative control RFP and RFP-KDM4A to demonstrate the localization at centrosomes of the enzyme? While I found the endogenous staining convincing, the fusion protein is less.

      Response: The MEFs were transiently transfected with the RFP-vector/KDM4A for the images shown. In our experience it is not uncommon for the RFP/mCherry/GFP tags to be prominent at the spindle and often tagged vector controls are omitted from many prominent publications. However, in our case there is a significant increase in RFP-KDM4A signal observed at the spindle poles and we have now included the quantification of signal from the two poles in Supplemental Figure 1J where the signal is 3 times higher in the RFP-KDM4A expressing cells compared to vector. We have also included new Figure 1D demonstrating the RFP-KDM4A localization to spindle poles in our stable cell lines where the signal for the control RFP-vector is negligible. The transient transfection data has been moved to Supplemental Figure 1 (1I).

      Comment 2: Figure 1E-F: How specific do the authors think the interactions with CP110 and centrobin are? Do they IP the entire centrosome proteome or do they think that they reveal some specific interactions within the centrosome? Can the authors comment on this? What is the significance of these interactions? Do the authors think that KDM4A is a centriolar component? Or a PCM component? This is only briefly mentioned in the discussion, it should be extended. Did they try to IP PCM components as well?

      Response: The reviewer brings up an excellent point. The purpose of the immunoprecipitation was to demonstrate the ability of KDM4A to pull down centrosome associated proteins and vice versa. We are unable to comment on the interactions being direct or indirect, although we suspect that most of the interactions are likely indirect, given that KDM4A is not specifically localized to the centrioles. As per the reviewer’s suggestion, we have now expanded the Discussion to speculate on the potential significance of these interactions and how they might enable identification of novel KDM4A interactors and potential substrates.

      Comment 3: Fig.S3: the signal of KDM4A seems broader than that of centrobin, with an average diameter of 749 nm. What is the diameter of centrobin for comparison using this method? The interpretation of the authors concerning this localization is not clear to me: "The quantification data of the diameter of the KDM4A distribution, independently in the different axes (x, y, z), revealed a relatively uniform/circular distribution (Fig. 2D) suggesting that KDM4A was not restrained to a particular region of the centrosome". Is KDM4A at centriole or at centrosomes? PCM or centriole component? From the interpretation stated above, it seems that KDM4A is everywhere from the proximal to the distal axis of the centriole, is it correct? But isn't more PCM?

      Response: We would like to apologize for the lack of clarity with respect to the centrobin measurements compared to those of KDM4A. We have attempted to clarify the distributions measurements by showing the distributions for both the centrobin and KDM4A signals. In addition, we have anow included new data with g-tubulin to show co-localization of KDM4A signal with g-tubulin and to also demonstrate that the signal for KDM4A is not centriole specific but is essentially more uniformly distributed throughout the centrosome. We have also included a video (Video 1) as Supplemental data to clarify this point.

      Comment 4: Fig.4B: The authors established that there is an increase in centrosome number upon short inactivation of KDM4A by JIB-04, which affects its enzymatic activity and not the scaffolding function. In addition, the loss of KDM4A phenocopies the effect of the drug: this means that the enzymatic activity is required to control the centrosome number. This is also re-enforced by the rescue with WT enzyme and not the enzymatically dead mutant of KDM4A (looking at micronuclei formation-Fig.7). Could the author speculate on this? The fast action of the inhibitor would exclude a block in S phase as stated in the discussion. The authors mention centrosome fragmentation but there is no evidence that this is happening here. The authors mentioned several possible mechanisms in the discussion without really exploring them. The authors also mention here that the chronic loss of KDM4A could arise through a distinct mechanism than that of the inhibitor, this statement was surprising. Could the authors check if they have a cell cycle delay or block in their KO cells? While it seems that the authors would like to address these points in the future, I think that the mechanistic aspect is lacking in this study or at least some hints of it.

      Response: We agree with all the points brought up by the reviewer. We have elaborated the discussion as recommended, however the challenge with a demethylase is identifying a potential methyltransferase that can lay a methyl mark on a potential substrate followed by then establishing KDM4A as an eraser for the same substrate. To address, the comment about a cell cycle delay as also brought up by Reviewer 1 (Comment 6), we have performed additional phenotyping of the cells and these data are now included in Figure 3 (as new panels Figures 3D, 3E, 3F) and new Figures 7C, 7D and 7E (for the rescue cell lines) which did not show any altered cell cycle progression.

      Comment 5: In general, the figures are organized in an unconventional manner with the panels from one figure distributed on several pages. Could the authors group the panels of each figure in one page to ease the understanding and the reading?

      Response: Although we do understand how having multiple panels on several pages makes its difficult to read, the immunofluorescence images would be extremely difficult to observe clearly. Also, this comment will be resolved once the manuscript is accepted for publication as we will re-format per journal guidelines.

      Comment 6: Figure S1F-G: the authors provide a large field of view showing a dozen of nuclei. While I acknowledge that this is to show the overall staining, itis difficult to really see the foci of KDM4A or g-Tubulin or centrin. The quality of the images looks really pixelated; this might be due to the PDF compression, but I cannot see any red signal on the panels. Could the authors enhance the B/C of the images so that one can see the signal corresponding to the centrosomes? Is it also possible to have a zoom on the centrosome itself with split channels to illustrate the co-localization? As it is, it is not clearly shown. In the panel G, there are many foci of KDM4A in the nucleus and 2 associated with a centrin staining, which correspond to the centrosomes. However, the signals do not seem to fully colocalize. What do the authors think about this?

      Response: We have provided larger zoomed in view of the cells in Figure S1 as requested.

      Comment 7: Figure 1A: same comment as above concerning the quality of the image. I am also concerned by the g-Tubulin staining as it looks not on focus and I do not see any foci that would correspond to the centrosome position, while the merge image clearly shows yellow signal, proof of co-localisation. Could the author correct this? In the inset, can the authors zoom on the centrosomes and display the split channels so that one can appreciate the co-localization of the 2 signals?The quality and display of Fig.1B is much better. Could we have the same rendering for the interphase cells of 1A?

      Response: The picture in Figure 1A is a raw image. This image has not undergone the same post-image deconvolution applied to the other images in the manuscript. The deconvolved images reduce the KDM4A signal in the nucleus and only demonstrate the highly intense signal at the centrosomes especially in mitotic cells. If we show the deconvolved image here it would lead to the erroneous perception that there is no KDM4A signal in the nucleus and the rest of the cell. To clarify this point we have modified the figure legends to state that this is a raw image. In addition, we have also provided blow-ups of the centrosomes specifically.

      Comment 8: Fig.3D: the nucleus of the cell is really affected with many blobs or micronuclei. Is this cell dying? The authors count the number of g-tubulin foci in interphase (Fig. 3C). Could they do it in mitosis and use centrin? In mitosis, there should be 4

      Response: The cell in question is not dying and is micronucleated. The question of genomic instability is addressed later in the manuscript and hence the point was not made in this figure. We thank the reviewer for suggesting use of centrin. We have now included these data as new Figures 4C, 4D and 4E.

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      Referee #3

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      Summary:

      Centrosomes are microtubules-based structures surrounded by a pericentriolar material, serving as Microtubule Organizing Center (MTOC) and are thus important during cell division. Ensuring proper segregation of the genetic material is crucial and defects occurring during this step can lead to drastic consequences like aneuploidy and chromosome instability. It is well established that centrosome defects (number, function, structure) can give rise to defective mitosis. In the present study, Chowdhury et al. demonstrate that the lysine demethylase 4A (KDM4A), known as a chromatin methyl marks eraser, localizes to centrosomes both in interphase and mitosis and is important for centrosome homeostasis. Intriguingly, the authors propose that the novel role of KDM4A in regulating centrosome integrity is unrelated to its function in regulating gene expression but linked to its enzymatic activity without providing a mechanistic advance.

      Major Comments

      This manuscript reports convincingly the localization of KDM4A at centrosomes both in interphase and in mitosis as well as the phenotype linked to the loss of KDM4A. While these are interesting observations, there are some important aspects for improvements that are listed below:

      • Figure 1D: the RFP vector alone localizes to the centrosome. How was the signal across the cells? Can the authors provide a fluorescence intensity measurement comparing the negative control RFP and RFP-KDM4A to demonstrate the localization at centrosomes of the enzyme? While I found the endogenous staining convincing, the fusion protein is less.
      • Figure 1E-F: How specific do the authors think the interactions with CP110 and centrobin are? Do they IP the entire centrosome proteome or do they think that they reveal some specific interactions within the centrosome? Can the authors comment on this? What is the significance of these interactions? Do the authors think that KDM4A is a centriolar component? Or a PCM component? This is only briefly mentioned in the discussion, it should be extended. Did they try to IP PCM components as well?
      • Fig.S3: the signal of KDM4A seems broader than that of centrobin, with an average diameter of 749 nm. What is the diameter of centrobin for comparison using this method? The interpretation of the authors concerning this localization is not clear to me: "The quantification data of the diameter of the KDM4A distribution, independently in the different axes (x, y, z), revealed a relatively uniform/circular distribution (Fig. 2D) suggesting that KDM4A was not restrained to a particular region of the centrosome". Is KDM4A at centriole or at centrosomes? PCM or centriole component? From the interpretation stated above, it seems that KDM4A is everywhere from the proximal to the distal axis of the centriole, is it correct? But isn't more PCM?
      • Fig.4B: The authors established that there is an increase in centrosome number upon short inactivation of KDM4A by JIB-04, which affects its enzymatic activity and not the scaffolding function. In addition, the loss of KDM4A phenocopies the effect of the drug: this means that the enzymatic activity is required to control the centrosome number. This is also re-enforced by the rescue with WT enzyme and not the enzymatically dead mutant of KDM4A (looking at micronuclei formation-Fig.7). Could the author speculate on this? The fast action of the inhibitor would exclude a block in S phase as stated in the discussion. The authors mention centrosome fragmentation but there is no evidence that this is happening here. The authors mentioned several possible mechanisms in the discussion without really exploring them. The authors also mention here that the chronic loss of KDM4A could arise through a distinct mechanism than that of the inhibitor, this statement was surprising. Could the authors check if they have a cell cycle delay or block in their KO cells? While it seems that the authors would like to address these points in the future, I think that the mechanistic aspect is lacking in this study or at least some hints of it.

      Minor comments

      In general, the figures are organized in an unconventional manner with the panels from one figure distributed on several pages. Could the authors group the panels of each figure in one page to ease the understanding and the reading?

      • Figure S1F-G: the authors provide a large field of view showing a dozen of nuclei. While I acknowledge that this is to show the overall staining, it is difficult to really see the foci of KDM4A or g-Tubulin or centrin. The quality of the images looks really pixelated; this might be due to the PDF compression, but I cannot see any red signal on the panels. Could the authors enhance the B/C of the images so that one can see the signal corresponding to the centrosomes? Is it also possible to have a zoom on the centrosome itself with split channels to illustrate the co-localization? As it is, it is not clearly shown. In the panel G, there are many foci of KDM4A in the nucleus and 2 associated with a centrin staining, which correspond to the centrosomes. However, the signals do not seem to fully colocalize. What do the authors think about this?
      • Figure 1A: same comment as above concerning the quality of the image. I am also concerned by the g-Tubulin staining as it looks not on focus and I do not see any foci that would correspond to the centrosome position, while the merge image clearly shows yellow signal, proof of co-localisation. Could the author correct this? In the inset, can the authors zoom on the centrosomes and display the split channels so that one can appreciate the co-localization of the 2 signals? The quality and display of Fig.1B is much better. Could we have the same rendering for the interphase cells of 1A?
      • Fig.3D: the nucleus of the cell is really affected with many blobs or micronuclei. Is this cell dying? The authors count the number of g-tubulin foci in interphase (Fig. 3C). Could they do it in mitosis and use centrin? In mitosis, there should be 4 centrin dots (2/spindle pole), it would nicely complement the phenotype of increased number of centrioles. How do the authors interpret these supernumerary centrioles? Is it due to overduplication? Centriole fragmentation? De novo centriole formation? Or failure of cytokinesis?

      Significance

      Controlling centrosome number is key to ensure faithful chromosome segregation. Increased number of centrosomes through diverse mechanisms can lead to abnormal mitosis despite the well-known centrosome clustering mechanism that permits the formation of a bipolar spindle. In this manuscript, the authors describe the presence of a chromatin eraser KDM4A at centrosomes across the cell cycle without specific localization within the centriole. While the role of KDM4A on chromatin has been described, the authors uncovered a novel function for KDM4A through its enzymatic activity in regulating centrosome numbers that would be independent on its impact on gene expression. The findings described in this manuscript are interesting despite lacking a mechanistical understanding ("Further studies will be necessary to understand the mechanistic underpinnings and molecular targets of KDM4A enzymatic activity at the centrosome"). Conceptually, it is interesting for scientists from centrosome and mitosis fields to consider uncanonical proteins, as exemplified by the enzyme KDM4A, in regulating centrosome function.

    3. Note: This preprint has been reviewed by subject experts for Review Commons. Content has not been altered except for formatting.

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      Referee #2

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      In this study, the authors explored the involvement of lysine demethylase 4A (KDM4A), a chromatin regulatory factor, in centrosome dynamics. They observed that KDM4A localizes to the centrosomes and identified physical interactions between KDM4A and key centriole proteins, such as centrobin, CP110, and centrin-2 through coimmunoprecipitation. Loss of KDM4A function resulted in various mitotic abnormalities including spindle defects, supernumerary centriole formation, chromatin bridges, and micronuclei formation. Additionally, treatment with JIB-04, a KDM4A inhibitor, exacerbated spindle defects, implicating enzymatic activity of KDM4A in spindle pole function during mitosis. From these findings, the authors inferred a novel role for KDM4A in maintaining centrosome integrity, ensuring mitotic fidelity, and preserving genomic stability.

      A comprehensive characterization of centrosome phenotypes in KDM4A-null cells would be invaluable. While the quality of microscopic images immunoblots is commendable, the preliminary nature of some results prompts further inquiry. The follows are major questions to be answered.

      1. Coimmunoprecipitation and GFP-trap analyses demonstrated interactions between KDM4A and centrobin, CP110, and centrin-2 (Fig. 1). While the authors suggest a functional a functional association with the centrosome, it is noteworthy that no known centriole protein has been identified to interact simultaneously with centrobin, CP110, and centrin-2, located in distinct sub-centriolar regions. Additionally, 3D super-resolution microscopy indicates that KDM4A is not restrained to a particular region of the centrosome, surely not at the centriole (Fig. 4D). These results hint that centrobin, CP110 and centrin-2 may be potential substrates of KDM4A. Therefore, it is worth to conduct immunostaining and coimmunoprecipitation analyses with the JIB-04-treated cells.
      2. The generation supernumerary centrioles in Kdm4a KO MEFs is intriguing, yet warrants careful description (Fig. 3). First, supernumerary centrioles should be coimmunostained with multiple centriole markers, such as centrin-2, CP110 and centrobin antibodies at synchronized populations such as G1, S and M phases. Second, the number of centrioles per cells may be counted and statistically analyzed.
      3. The high proportion of pseudo-bipolar cells in the NT group requires attention (Fig. 5).
      4. The KO-rescue cells should be valuable tools to confirm specific roles of KDM4A at the centrosome (Fig. 7). The authors may generate stable cell lines in which wild type and H188A mutant KDM4A are expressed in the KO cells, and use them for centrosome localization of the ectopic proteins, spindle formation and supernumerary centriole generation.

      Significance

      This manuscript presents a novel function of KDM4A at the centrosome. Their immunostaining results clearly showed centrosome localization at the centrosome. It is surprising that a chromatin regulator plays a role at the centrosome. It is likely that KDM4A is essential for maintenance of centriole integrity, although the specific mechanisms remain unexplored. Nevertheless, the descriptive nature of the study leaves questions regarding precise contribution of KDM4A to centrosome function unanswered.

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      Referee #1

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      Chowdhury, Dere and colleagues here explore potential centrosomal roles for the lysine demethylase, KDM4A, better known for its functions in chromatin regulation. They show that it localises to centrosomes during mitosis and that its loss causes centrosome numerical aberrations and spindle multipolarity, along with micronuclei.

      The major issue is the limited insight provided into the potential mechanism(s) by which KDM4A loss impacts centrosome/ spindle pole integrity. There are also several technical issues that should be improved upon.

      Major points

      1. A gallery of different cell cycle stages should be included to define KDM4A centrosomal localisation at G1, S and G2 phases and whether it is localised to duplicating centrosomes.
      2. The immunoprecipitations in Fig. 1 and Supp. Fig. 1 must include appropriate controls. There is no positive control in Fig. 1E and the negative controls for the tagged pulldowns are not appropriate in that there is no other HA-tagged protein in cells. Antibody controls and the reciprocal immunoprecipitations should also be included in the same figure (with controls).
      3. Fig. 1H: The use of overexpressed GFP-centrin for immunoprecipitations is questionable; centrin overexpression can cause centrosome amplification, so the level of centrin relative to the endogenous level should be demonstrated.
      4. The precise localisation of KDM4A should be determined more clearly with respect to known centrosomal structures/ regions. One would speculate a PCM localisation from the data presented here, but the use of centrobin as a marker does not allow the mother centriole's location to be determined with great clarity. It is unclear why the authors chose centrobin as a marker; further explanation of this might be helpful to the reader. Centrobin is usually cited as a daughter centriole marker (PMID: 16275750, but see 29440264). Supp. Fig. 3J appears to shows 2 centrioles labelled with centrobin but the paper does not specify whether centrobin is chosen as a daughter marker or otherwise.
      5. Related to this localisation issue, Fig. 2D is unclear to this reviewer. What is this normalized to- a marker or just a set of coordinates? This is an unusual means of representing a localization that does not help the reader understand the (sub-)centrosomal location of KDM4A. The analysis in Supp. Fig. 4 is of somewhat limited value and might be omitted.
      6. Fig. 3 shows the amplification of gamma-tubulin signals, but there is no control for cell cycle stage. The Kdm4a knockout cells appear to be twice the size of the controls, suggesting a G2 phase arrest, which can potentiate centrosome overduplication, or cytokinetic failure in a previous cell cycle (this may also be the case in Figs. 6C and 7B). Therefore, these cells should be phenotyped more robustly with respect to their proliferative characteristics and cell cycle phase distribution. Cell cycle phenotypes should also be checked in the rescue experiments.
      7. Related to the previous point, in the DAPI staining in Figure 5A, 'pseudo-bipolar' cells #1 and #3 (from the top) seem to have greatly-increased levels of DNA, suggesting failed cytokinesis as a mechanism of centrosome abnormality. This is a very different process to a centrosome overduplication within a single cell cycle; given that these are knockouts, it is not clear what conclusions should be drawn from the current analysis.
      8. The JIB-04 result may suggest that KDM4A inhibition causes fragmentation of spindle poles, given that it is a relatively short treatment that would probably not be long enough for centrosome overduplication. Whether this arises during M phase, distinct from the overduplication phenotype seen where there are >4 centrioles, should be posed as a separate question- these may be distinct outcomes from KMD4A inhibition at different cell cycle times.
      9. It is unclear why the authors call the cell shown in Fig. 4B 'pseudo-bipolar'- there are clearly four poles here (as in the multipolar example shown in Fig 5A). This makes the data in Fig. 5 difficult to interpret. The authors should review their classification.
      10. Expression of the vector control in the Kdm4a nulls in Fig. 7A appears to show a decline in the H3K36me3 levels, confusing the outcome of this experiment. Quantitation should be provided for these blots.
      11. A rescue experiment should be included for the siRNA knockdown of KDM4A.
      12. Size markers should be shown in all immunoblots.

      Minor points

      1. p.6, 11 'the resulting payment' and 'caustic chromosome environment' are strange usages and should be rephrased.
      2. Are all panels shown at the same magnification in Fig. 1B? (The telophase DAPI appears different to the anaphase)
      3. Blow-up panels should be shown so that the centrosomes can be visualised more clearly (Fig. 1 and Supp. Fig. 1).
      4. The MT labelling in Fig. 1D is not of good quality; this imaging should be improved.

      Significance

      • General assessment: Strengths:

      Potential novel localisation and functions for KMD4A.

      Weaknesses:

      Limited mechanistic detail.

      Technical concerns.

      Key biological points not addressed. - Advance: While these observations are of potential interest, there are many questions that are not resolved clearly, resulting in a mainly descriptive advance. - Audience: Basic research, primarily. The study is likely to be of interest to the centrosome/ cell cycle field, with potential ramifications in genome stability and cancer biology.

    1. Leandro Folgar, président du conseil d'administration de l'agence nationale uruguayenne pour l'innovation en technologie éducative (CEIBAL), décrit l’évolution de ce programme depuis son lancement en 2007.

      Il souligne le succès de CEIBAL en Uruguay, attribuable à des facteurs contextuels comme un système démocratique fort et un accès généralisé à internet.

      Folgar détaille les différentes initiatives de CEIBAL, axées sur l’équité et la qualité de l’éducation, incluant la fourniture d’ordinateurs, la formation des enseignants, et l'utilisation de la science comportementale pour optimiser les interventions.

      Il met l'accent sur l'importance de l'adaptation constante du programme face aux nouveaux défis technologiques, notamment l'intelligence artificielle, pour garantir une éducation équitable pour tous.

      Enfin, il insiste sur le rôle crucial des enseignants dans le succès de la transformation numérique de l'éducation.

      Voici un résumé chronométré de la présentation de Leandro Folgar :

      0:00-2:00 : Folgar commence par présenter l’Uruguay, soulignant ses caractéristiques uniques, telles que sa forte démocratie, son PIB élevé par habitant et son engagement en faveur des énergies renouvelables.

      Il souligne le rôle de ces facteurs dans le succès de la transformation numérique du pays, en particulier dans le domaine de l’éducation.

      2:00-4:00 : Il présente ensuite le Ceibal, l’agence nationale d’innovation pour les technologies éducatives de l’Uruguay.

      Il explique comment le Ceibal a évolué à partir du programme « Un ordinateur portable par enfant » et est devenu un élément clé du paysage éducatif uruguayen. Folgar souligne l’accent mis par le Ceibal sur l’équité et la garantie que tous les enfants, y compris ceux des zones rurales, aient accès aux technologies éducatives.

      4:00-7:00 : Folgar met en évidence les initiatives clés du Ceibal, notamment la fourniture d’appareils, la connectivité Internet, des plateformes éducatives et des programmes de formation pour les enseignants.

      Il explique comment le Ceibal aborde les réparations des appareils, le développement professionnel des enseignants et l’utilisation des sciences comportementales dans l’éducation.

      7:00-9:00 : Il aborde le rôle de la science cognitive dans l’éducation et la collaboration du Ceibal avec des organisations de recherche telles que Stanford pour mener des expériences et évaluer l’impact des technologies éducatives.

      9:00-11:00 : Folgar discute des défis posés par l’intelligence artificielle dans l’éducation et de la nécessité d’une approche intentionnelle pour garantir que l’IA ne crée pas une nouvelle fracture numérique.

      Il souligne l’importance des enseignants dans l’intégration efficace des technologies dans l’éducation.

      11:00-13:00 : Il présente des exemples concrets de la manière dont le Ceibal a utilisé les sciences comportementales pour améliorer la participation des élèves aux tests et aux programmes de codage.

      Il souligne les avantages des interventions comportementales en termes de simplicité, de rentabilité et de concentration sur les obstacles structurels.

      13:00-15:00 : Folgar conclut en soulignant que la transformation numérique dans l’éducation est un marathon continu qui nécessite une collaboration entre les chercheurs, les décideurs politiques et les enseignants.

      Il réaffirme l’importance des enseignants en tant que technologie la plus importante au service de l’apprentissage.

    1. Authors’ Response (31 December 2024)

      GENERAL ASSESSMENT

      In this article, Kay refutes a major claim made by Watson et al., 2023. In the original publication, Watson et al. argue that macromolecular condensation acts as a cellular buffering mechanism to compensate for the effects of osmotic shock. In particular, they claim that, when water is drawn into or out of the cell due to hypo- or hyper-osmotic shock, respectively, macromolecular condensates rapidly capture (during hypo-osmotic shock) or release (during hyper-osmotic shock) free water to maintain a constant water potential (presumably in addition to a constant solute concentration and osmolality) within the cell. While Watson et al. find that macromolecular condensation in cells is responsive to osmotic shock, they do not measure intracellular water potential, osmolality, or macromolecular density in intact cells, and therefore do not directly demonstrate that biocondensation buffers any of these properties in living cells. In response, Kay argues that, while such a water buffer could temporarily maintain an osmolality differential across the membrane, this osmolality differential will necessarily drive water across the membrane until the osmolality within the cell equals the osmolality outside of the cell. Therefore, the steady-state behaviour is expected to be identical with and without the water buffer. Using the well-established pump-leak model for osmotic water transport, Kay further shows that the timescale at which a water buffer can maintain even a 10% osmolality differential across the membrane is at most a minute for a typical animal cell.

      Overall, Kay 2024 provides a compelling rebuttal to a strong claim made by Watson et al. However, there is an opportunity for Kay to acknowledge nuanced situations where such a water buffering mechanism as that posited by Watson may be useful to cells. It’s also unclear if Kay has described a major inconsistency with Watson et al., particularly since the water release rate from condensates is not well quantified.<br />

      I thank the reviewers and curating editor for taking the time to work through our paper and providing guidance for improving it.

      In what follows we have responded to all the points raised during the review in blue and have attached a revised version of the manuscript with all changes marked up. I should note that I have included my collaborator Zahra Aminzare as an author on the paper, since she did significant work in overcoming some difficulties with the simulations.

      RECOMMENDATIONS

      Essential revisions:

      1. The author could acknowledge nuanced situations in which the water buffering mechanism described by Watson et al. may be useful to cells. For example, by slowing the rate of change of intracellular osmolarity due to osmotic shock and thus giving the cell time for more active feedback mechanisms to engage, or in buffering rapid fluctuations in extracellular osmolality

      The only situation that we could think of where the change in osmolarity was transient and fast, is blood cells moving through the vasa recta in kidney (L 143) , where the interstitial osmolarity gets as high as 1,200 mOsm. The cells are exposed to this change for a few seconds, approximately every 5 min. However, no one seems to have measured how much the plasma changes as blood transits through the vasa recta. we have elaborated a bit more on this in the revised version of the manuscript.

      1. The flux of water across lipid membranes depends on the pressure difference across the membrane. The author simulated the situation with a 30 mOsm (~75 kPa) osmotic pressure difference. Considering that physiologically relevant pressure fluctuations can be much lower (a few kPa), is it possible that a water buffer would be more effective when there are small pressure differences across the cell membrane? The author should discuss this.

      We have repeated the simulations now using smaller osmotic gradient (15 mOsm). With these it can buy a little more time since that rate of water influx is slower. This has been included in the revised paper (L 76-78).

      1. The author should cite the work from which they obtained the water buffer release rate.

      To the best of our knowledge there is no information on this point. When I first presented Watson et al. with my counter argument, I assumed that the release of water was instantaneous. They countered that it is likely to be more gradual, therefore I simulated a slower release process. In the revised version of the paper, we now included both slow and quick release to show that it makes little difference. We have now noted that for the WB to counteract the change in extracellular osmolarity, the rate of water release must match very closely that of the water influx or efflux, which seems implausible (see L 81-86).

      1. It would be helpful to measure the dynamics of intracellular volume concurrently with biocondensate formation under cells exposed to osmotic shock (ideally under experimental conditions where cells either do or do not form condensates). If Watson et al.’s hypothesis is correct, the volume should not change (this seems unlikely). If your hypothesis is correct that buffering could only ever be temporary, one could then experimentally determine the buffering timescale by measuring the stall time between the shock and when the volume begins to change. The stall should also disappear in conditions where condensate formation is inhibited.

      We have added this suggestion to the revised paper (L 152-154).

      1. There are two inaccuracies in the discussion of membrane tension caused by osmotic pressure that would benefit from being corrected. First, when using Laplace’s Law to calculate membrane tension induced by 30 mOsm pressure, the author used a cell radius of 10 um and calculated a large (180 mN/m) membrane tension. This is significantly overestimated because the cell membrane can form local deformations via attachment to the cytoskeleton. These local deformations are typically around 10 - 100 nm, thus reducing the calculated membrane tension by 2-3 orders of magnitude, below the lysis tension of the membrane (1 - 10 mN/m). Second, the author is correct that measured resting membrane tension is low (< 0.3 mN/m). However, recent evidence suggests that tension on the cell membrane can locally or transiently reach much higher levels (to > 1mN/m). This is supported by activation of mechanosensitive ion channels such as Piezo1, which require an activation membrane tension ~ 1mN/m.

      We have now included a discussion of the first point (see L 127-130). On the second point, if the reviewers could please provide us with a reference to this we would be grateful and will include it in the revised version of the paper.

      1. The discussion on non-equilibrium states is not very clear. Is the author suggesting that a water buffer can work more efficiently in an equilibrium system such as a giant vesicle?

      The reviewers raise an interesting point. In a closed system like a test tube a WB could act without opposition, but as soon as one introduces a membrane that is permeable to water it will be overwhelmed, no matter if the system is an energetically driven one like the PLM or a passive one like a giant vesicle. There is no difference between a passive and active system. To show this we set up a cell without a sodium pump and used a high concentration of impermeant extracellular molecules to stabilize the volume. (see L 102-107, and Fig. 1)

      1. Because the pump-leak model is generic, some contextual discussion of condensates would be helpful. For example, the dynamic formation of hydrogen bonds, van der Waals interactions, and possible charges resulting from hyperosmotic or low osmotic conditions that may indirectly participate in the hypothesis.

      Our argument does not depend on the mechanism of water release or binding. There may indeed be many ways of changing the water bound to a macromolecule, but we will leave it to proponents of the WB hypothesis to explore this.

      1. Has the author considered whether the thermodynamic driving forces associated with phase separation and condensate formation might affect the ability of condensates to buffer intracellular osmolality?

      This is beyond the scope of our paper, so again we will leave it to others to address this. Rather than discuss all the different scenarios we have chosen to quote the papers of (Guttman et al., 1995; Parsegian et al., 2000), which Watson et al. do not refer to.

      Optional suggestions:

      1. The language of the article focuses on the role of membrane permeability, which is of course key. However, it might be helpful to explicitly state that an osmolality differential will always drive water across the membrane, so even if a water buffer could temporarily maintain such an osmolality differential, water will continue to flow across the membrane until the buffer is saturated and this differential is equalized.

      This is indeed what will happen. We have tried to clarify this in the revised version (see L 208-210).

      (This is a response to peer review conducted by Biophysics Colab on version 1 of this preprint.)

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      The manuscript by Oleh et al. uses in vitro electrophysiology and compartmental modeling (via NEURON) to investigate the expression and function of HCN channels in mouse L2/3 pyramidal neurons. The authors conclude that L2/3 neurons have developmentally regulated HCN channels, the activation of which can be observed when subjected to large hyperpolarizations. They further conclude via blockade experiments that HCN channels in L2/3 neurons influence cellular excitability and pathway-specific EPSP kinetics, which can be neuromodulated. While the authors perform a wide range of slice physiology experiments, concrete evidence that L2/3 cells express functionally relevant HCN channels is limited. There are serious experimental design caveats and confounds that make drawing strong conclusions from the data difficult. Furthermore, the significance of the findings is generally unclear, given modest effect sizes and a lack of any functional relevance, either directly via in vivo experiments or indirectly via strong HCN-mediated changes in known operations/computations/functions of L2/3 neurons.

      Specific points:

      (1) The interpretability and impact of this manuscript are limited due to numerous methodological issues in experimental design, data collection, and analysis. The authors have not followed best practices in the field, and as such, much of the data is ambiguous and/or weak and does not support their interpretations (detailed below). Additionally, the authors fail to appropriately explain their rationale for many of their choices, making it difficult to understand why they did what they did. Furthermore, many important references appear to be missing, both in terms of contextualizing the work and in terms of approach/method. For example, the authors do not cite Kalmbach et al 2018, which performed a directly comparable set of experiments on HCN channels in L2/3 neurons of both humans and mice. This is an unacceptable omission. Additionally, the authors fail to cite prior literature regarding the specificity or lack thereof of Cs+ in blocking HCN. In describing a result, the authors state "In line with previous reports, we found that L2/3 PCs exhibited an unremarkable amount of sag at 'typical' current commands" but they then fail to cite the previous reports.

      We thank the reviewer for the thorough examination of our manuscript; however, we disagree with many of the raised concerns for several reasons, as detailed here:

      To address the lack of certain citations, we would like to emphasize that in the introduction section, we did initially focus on the several decades-long line of investigation into the HCN channel content of layer 2/3 pyramidal cells (L2/3 PCs), where there has undoubtedly been some controversy as to their functional contribution. We did not explicitly cite papers that claimed to find no/little HCN channels/sag- although this would be a significant list of publications from some excellent investigators, as methods used may have differed from ours leading to different interpretations. Simply stated, unless one was explicitly looking for HCN in L2/3 PCs, it might go unobserved. However, we now addressed this more clearly in the revision:

      Just to take one example: in the publication mentioned by the reviewer (Kalmbach et al 2018), the investigators did not carry out voltage clamp or dynamic clamp recordings, as we did in our work here. Furthermore, the reported input resistance values in the aforementioned paper were far above other reports in mice (Routh et al. 2022, Brandalise et al 2022, Hedrick et al 2012; which were similar to our findings here), suggesting that recordings in Kalmbach were carried out at membrane potentials where HCN activation may be less available (Routh, Brager and Johnston 2022).

      Another reason for some mixed findings in the field is undoubtedly due to the small/nonexistent sag in L2/3 current clamp recordings (in mice). We also observed a very small sag, which can be explained by the following:  The ‘sag’ potential is a biphasic voltage response emerging from a relatively fast passive membrane response and a slower Ih activation. In L2/3 PCs, hyperpolarization-activated currents are apparently faster than previously described, and are located proximally (Figure 2 & Figure 5). Therefore, their recruitment in mouse L2/3 PCs is on a similar timescale to the passive membrane response, resulting in a more monophasic response. We now include a more full set of citations in the updated introduction section, to highlight the importance of HCN channels in L2/3 PCs in mice (and other species).

      The justification for using cesium (i.e., ‘best practices’) is detailed below.

      (2) A critical experimental concern in the manuscript is the reliance on cesium, a nonspecific blocker, to evaluate HCN channel function. Cesium blocks HCN channels but also acts at potassium channels (and possibly other channels as well). The authors do not acknowledge this or attempt to justify their use of Cs+ and do not cite prior work on this subject. They do not show control experiments demonstrating that the application of Cs+ in their preparation only affects Ih. Additionally, the authors write 1 mM cesium in the text but appear to use 2 mM in the figures. In later experiments, the authors switch to ZD7288, a more commonly used and generally accepted more specific blocker of HCN channels. However, they use a very high concentration, which is also known to produce off-target effects (see Chevaleyre and Castillo, 2002). To make robust conclusions, the authors should have used both blockers (at accepted/conservative concentrations) for all (or at least most) experiments. Using one blocker for some experiments and then another for different experiments is fraught with potential confounds.

      To address the concerns regarding the usage of cesium to block HCN channels, we would like to state that neither cesium nor ZD-7288 are without off-target effects, however in our case the potential off-target effects of external cesium were deemed less impactful, especially concerning AP firing output experiments. Extracellular cesium has been widely accepted as a blocker of HCN channels (Lau et al. 2010, Wickenden et al. 2009, Rateau and Ropert 2005, Hemond et al. 2009, Yang et al. 2015, Matt et al. 2010). However, it is well known to act on potassium channels as well at higher concentrations, which has been demonstrated with intracellular and extracellular application (Puil et al. 1981, Fleidervish et al. 2008, Williams et al. 1991, 2008).

      Although we initially performed ‘internal’ control experiments to ensure the cesium concentration was unlikely to greatly block voltage gated K+ channels during our recordings, we recognize these were not included in the original manuscript. These are detailed as follows: during our recordings cesium had no significant effect on action potential halfwidth, ruling out substantial blocking of potassium channels, nor did it affect any other aspects of suprathreshold activity (now reported in results, page 4 - line 113). Furthermore, we observed similar effects on passive properties (resting membrane potential, input resistance) following ZD-7288 as with cesium, which we now also updated in our figures (Supplementary Figure 1). We did acknowledge that ZD-7288 is a widely accepted blocker of HCN, and for this reason we carried out some of our experiments using this pharmacological agent instead of cesium.

      On the other hand, ZD-7288 suffers from its own side effects, such as potential effects on sodium channels (Wu et al. 2012) and calcium channels (Sánchez-Alonso et al. 2008, Felix et al. 2003). As our aim was to provide functional evidence for the importance of HCN channels, we initially deemed these potential effects unacceptable in experiments where AP firing output (e.g., in cell-attached experiments) was measured. Nonetheless, in new experiments now included here, we found the effects of ZD and cesium on AP output were similar as shown in new Supplemental Figure 1.

      Many experiments were supported by complementary findings using external cesium and ZD-7288. For example, the effect of ZD-7288 on EPSPs was confirmed by similar synaptic stimulation experiments using cesium. This is important, as synaptic inputs of L2/3 PCs are modulated by both dendritic sodium (Ferrarese et al. 2018) and calcium channels (Landau 2022), therefore the application of ZD-7288 alone may have been difficult to interpret in isolation. We thank the reviewer for bringing up this important point.

      (3) A stronger case could be made that HCN is expressed in the somatic compartment of L2/3 cells if the authors had directly measured HCN-isolated currents with outside-out or nucleated patch recording (with appropriate leak subtraction and pharmacology). Whole-cell voltage-clamp in neurons with axons and/or dendrites does not work. It has been shown to produce erroneous results over and over again in the field due to well-known space clamp problems (see Rall, Spruston, Williams, etc.). The authors could have also included negative controls, such as recordings in neurons that do not express HCN or in HCN-knockout animals. Without these experiments, the authors draw a false equivalency between the effects of cesium and HCN channels, when the outcomes they describe could be driven simply by multiple other cesium-sensitive currents. Distortions are common in these preparations when attempting to study channels (see Williams and Womzy, J Neuro, 2011). In Fig 2h, cesium-sensitive currents look too large and fast to be from HCN currents alone given what the authors have shown in their earlier current clamp data. Furthermore, serious errors in leak subtraction appear to be visible in Supplementary Figure 1c. To claim that these conductances are solely from HCN may be misleading.

      We disagree with the argument that “Whole-cell voltage-clamp in neurons with axons and/or dendrites does not work”. Although this method is not without its confounds (i.e. space clamp), it is still a useful initial measure as demonstrated countless times in the literature. However, the reviewer is correct that the best approach to establish the somatodendritic distribution of ion channels is by direct somatic and dendritic outside-out patches. Due to the small diameter of L2/3 PC dendrites, these experiments haven’t been carried out yet in the literature for any other ion channel either to our knowledge. Mapping this distribution electrophysiologically may be outside the scope of the current manuscript, but it was hard for us to ignore the sheer size of the Cs<sup>+</sup> sensitive hyperpolarizing currents in whole cell. Thus, we will opt to report this data.

      Also, we should point out that space clamp-related errors manifest in the overestimation of frequency-dependent features, such as activation kinetics, and underestimation of steady-state current amplitudes. The activation time constant of our measured currents are somewhat faster than previously reported; reducing major concerns regarding space clamp errors. Furthermore, we simply do not understand what “too large… to be from HCN currents” means. Our voltage-clamp measured currents are similar to previously reported HCN currents (Meng et al. 2011, Li 2011, Zhao et al. 2019, Yu et al. 2004, Zhang et al. 2008, Spinelli et al. 2018, Craven et al. 2006, Ying et al. 2012, Biel et al. 2009).

      Furthermore, we should point out that our measured currents activated at hyperpolarized voltages, had the same voltage dependence as HCN currents, did not show inactivation, influenced both input resistance and resting membrane potential, and are blocked by low concentration extracellular cesium. Each of these features would point to HCN.

      (4) The authors present current-clamp traces with some sag, a primary indicator of HCN conductance, in Figure 2. However, they do not show example traces with cesium or ZD7288 blockade. Additionally, the normalization of current injected by cellular capacitance and the lack of reporting of input resistance or estimated cellular size makes it difficult to determine how much current is actually needed to observe the sag, which is important for assessing the functional relevance of these channels. The sag ratio in controls also varies significantly without explanation (Figure 6 vs Figure 7). Could this variability be a result of genetically defined subgroups within L2/3? For example, in humans, HCN expression in L2/3 varies from superficial and deep neurons. The authors do not make an effort to investigate this. Regardless of inconsistencies in either current injection or cell type, the sag ratio appears to be rather modest and similar to what has already been reported previously in other papers.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out that our explanation for the modest sag ratio might have not been sufficient to properly understand why this measurement cannot be applied to layer 2/3 pyramidal cells. Briefly: sag potential emerges from a relatively (compared to I<sub>h</sub>) fast passive membrane response and a slower HCN recruitment. The opposing polarity and different timescales of these two mechanisms results in a biphasic response called “sag” potential. However, if the timescale of these two mechanisms is similar, the voltage response is not predicted to be biphasic. We have shown that hyperpolarization activated currents in our preparations are fast and proximal, therefore they are recruited during the passive response (see Figure 2g.). This means that although a substantial amount of HCN currents are activated during hyperpolarization, their activation will not result in substantial sag. Therefore, sag ratio measurement is not necessarily applicable to approximate the HCN content of mouse L2/3 PCs. We would like to emphasize that sag ratio measurements are correct in case of other cell types (i.e. L5 and CA1 PCs_,_ and our aim is not to discredit the method, but rather to show that it cannot be applied similarly in the case of mouse L2/3 PCs.

      Our own measurements, similar to others in the literature show that L2/3 PCs exhibit modest sag ratios, however, this does not mean that HCN is not relevant. I<sub>h</sub> activation in L2/3 PCs does not manifest in large sag potential but rather in a continuous distortion of steady-state responses (Figure 2b.). The reviewer is correct that L2/3 PCs are non-homogenous, therefore we sampled along the entire L2/3 axis. This yielded some potential variability in our results (i.e., passive properties); yet we did not observe any cells where hyperpolarizing-activated/Cs<sup>+</sup>-sensitive currents could not be resolved. As structural variability of L2/3 cells does result in variability in cellular capacitance, we compensated for this variability by injecting cellular capacitance-normalized currents. Our measured cellular capacitances were in accordance with previously published values, in the range of 50-120 pF. Therefore, the injected currents were not outside frequently used values. Together, we would like to state that whether substantial sag potential is present or not, initial estimates of the HCN content for each L2/3 PC should be treated with caution.

      (5) In the later experiments with ZD7288, the authors measured EPSP half-width at greater distances from the soma. However, they use minimal stimulation to evoke EPSPs at increasingly far distances from the soma. Without controlling for amplitude, the authors cannot easily distinguish between attenuation and spread from dendritic filtering and additional activation and spread from HCN blockade. At a minimum, the authors should share the variability of EPSP amplitude versus the change in EPSP half-width and/or stimulation amplitudes by distance. In general, this kind of experiment yields much clearer results if a more precise local activation of synapses is used, such as dendritic current injection, glutamate uncaging, sucrose puff, or glutamate iontophoresis. There are recording quality concerns here as well: the cell pictured in Figure 3a does not have visible dendritic spines, and a substantial amount of membrane is visible in the recording pipette. These concerns also apply to the similar developmental experiment in 6f-h, where EPSP amplitude is not controlled, and therefore, attenuation and spread by distance cannot be effectively measured. The outcome, that L2/3 cells have dendritic properties that violate cable theory, seems implausible and is more likely a result of variable amplitude by proximity.

      To resolve this issue, we made a supplementary figure showing elicited amplitudes, which showed no significant distance dependence and minimal variability (new Supplementary Figure 6). We thank the reviewer for suggesting an amplitude-halfwidth comparison control (now included as new Supplementary Figure 6).). To address the issue of the non-visible spines, we would like to note that these images are of lower magnification and power to resolve them. The presence of dendritic spines was confirmed in every recorded pyramidal cell observed using 2P microscopy at higher magnification.

      We would like to emphasize that although our recordings “seemingly” violated the cable theory, this is only true if we assume a completely passive condition. As shown in our manuscript, cable theory was not violated, as the presence of NMDA receptor boosting explained the observed ‘non-Rallian’ phenomenon.

      (6) Minimal stimulation used for experiments in Figures 3d-i and Figures 4g-h does not resolve the half-width measurement's sensitivity to dendritic filtering, nor does cesium blockade preclude only HCN channel involvement. Example traces should be shown for all conditions in 3h; the example traces shown here do not appear to even be from the same cell. These experiments should be paired (with and without cesium/ZD). The same problem appears in Figure 4, where it is not clear that the authors performed controls and drug conditions on the same cells. 4g also lacks a scale bar, so readers cannot determine how much these measurements are affected by filtering and evoked amplitude variability. Finally, if we are to believe that minimal stimulation is used to evoke responses of single axons with 50% fail rates, NMDA receptor activation should be minimal to begin with. If the authors wish to make this claim, they need to do more precise activation of NMDA-mediated EPSPs and examine the effects of ZD7288 on these responses in the same cell. As the data is presented, it is not possible to draw the conclusion that HCN boosts NMDA-mediated responses in L2/3 neurons.

      As stated in the figure legends, the control and drug application traces are from the same cell, both in figure 3 and figure 4, and the scalebar is not included as the amplitudes were normalized for clarity. We have address the effects of dendritic filtering above in answer (5), and cesium blockade above in answer (2). To reiterate, dendritic filtering alone cannot explain our observations, and cesium is often a better choice for blocking HCN channels compared to ZD-7288, which blocks sodium channels as well.

      When an excitatory synaptic signal arrives onto a pyramidal cell in typical conditions, neurotransmitter sensitive receptors transmit a synaptic current to the dendritic spine. This dendritic spine is electrically isolated by the high resistance of the spine neck and due to the small membrane surface of the spine, the synaptic current can elicit remarkably large voltage changes. These voltage changes can be large enough to depolarize the spine close to zero millivolts upon even single small inputs (Jayant et al. 2016). Therefore, to state that single inputs arriving to dendritic spines cannot be large enough to recruit NMDA receptor activation is incorrect. This is further exemplified by the substantial literature showing ‘miniature’ NMDA recruitment via stochastic vesicle release alone.

      (7) The quality of recordings included in the dataset has concerning variability: for example, resting membrane potentials vary by >15-20 mV and the AP threshold varies by 20 mV in controls. This is indicative of either a very wide range of genetically distinct cell types that the authors are ignoring or the inclusion of cells that are either unhealthy or have bad seals.

      Although we are aware of the diversity of L2/3 PCs, resolving further layer depth differences is outside the scope of our current manuscript. However, as shown in Kalmbech et al, resting membrane potential can greatly vary (>15-20 mV) in L2/3 PCs depending on distance from pia. We acknowledge that the variance in AP threshold is large and could be due to genetically distinct cell types.

      (8) The authors make no mention of blocking GABAergic signaling, so it must be assumed that it is intact for all experiments. Electrical stimulation can therefore evoke a mixture of excitatory and inhibitory responses, which may well synapse at very different locations, adding to interpretability and variability concerns.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out our lack of detail regarding the GABAergic signaling blocker SR 95531. We did include this drug in our recordings of (50Hz stim.) signal summation, so GABAergic responses did not contaminate our recordings. We now included this information in the results section (page 5) and the methods section (page 15)

      (9) The investigation of serotonergic interaction with HCN channels produces modest effect sizes and suffers the same problems as described above.

      We do not agree with the reviewer that 50% drop in neuronal AP firing responses (Figure 7b) was a modest effect size. Thus, we opted to keep this data in the manuscript.

      (10) The computational modeling is not well described and is not biologically plausible. Persistent and transient K channels are missing. Values for other parameters are not listed. The model does not seem to follow cable theory, which, as described above, is not only implausible but is also not supported by the experimental findings.

      The model was downloaded from the Cell Type Database from the Allen Institute, with only minor modifications including the addition of dendritic HCN channels and NDMA receptors- which were varied along a wide parameter space to find a ‘best fit’ to our observations. These additions were necessary to recapitulate our experimental findings. We agree the model likely does not fully recapitulate all aspects of the dendrites, which as we hope to convey in this manuscript, are not fully resolved in mouse L2/3 PCs. This is a previously published neuronal model, and despite its potential shortcomings, is one among a handful of open-source neuronal models of a fully reconstructed L2/3 PC.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This paper by Olah et al. uncovers a previously unknown role of HCN channels in shaping synaptic inputs to L2/3 cortical neurons. The authors demonstrate using slice electrophysiology and computational modeling that, unlike layer 5 pyramidal neurons, L2/3 neurons have an enrichment of HCN channels in the proximal dendrites. This location provides a locus of neuromodulation for inputs onto the proximal dendrites from L4 without an influence on distal inputs from L1. The authors use pharmacology to demonstrate the effect of HCN channels on NMDA-mediated synaptic inputs from L4. The authors further demonstrate the developmental time course of HCN function in L2/3 pyramidal neurons. Taken together, this a well-constructed investigation of HCN channel function and the consequences of these channels on synaptic integration in L2/3 pyramidal neurons.

      Strengths:

      The authors use careful, well-constrained experiments using multiple pharmacological agents to asses HCN channel contributions to synaptic integrations. The authors also use a voltage clamp to directly measure the current through HCN channels across developmental ages. The authors also provide supplemental data showing that their observation is consistent across multiple areas of the cerebral cortex.

      Weaknesses:

      The gradient of the HCN channel function is based almost exclusively on changes in EPSP width measured at the soma. While providing strong evidence for the presence of HCN current in L2/3 neurons, there are space clamp issues related to the use of somatic whole-cell voltage clamps that should be considered in the discussion.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out our careful and well-constrained experiments and for making suggestions. The potential effects of space clamp errors are detailed in the extended explanations under Reviewer 1, Specific points (3).

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors study the function of HCN channels in L2/3 pyramidal neurons, employing somatic whole-cell recordings in acute slices of visual cortex in adult mice and a bevy of technically challenging techniques. Their primary claim is a non-uniform HCN distribution across the dendritic arbor with a greater density closer to the soma (roughly opposite of the gradient found in L5 PT-type neurons). The second major claim is that multiple sources of long-range excitatory input (cortical and thalamic) are differentially affected by the HCN distribution. They further describe an interesting interplay of NMDAR and HCN, serotonergic modulation of HCN, and compare HCN-related properties at 1, 2 and 6 weeks of age. Several results are supported by biophysical simulations.

      Strengths:

      The authors collected data from both male and female mice, at an age (6-10 weeks) that permits comparison with in vivo studies, in sufficient numbers for each condition, and they collected a good number of data points for almost all figure panels. This is all the more positive, considering the demanding nature of multi-electrode recording configurations and pipette-perfusion. The main strength of the study is the question and focus.

      Weaknesses:

      Unfortunately, in its present form, the main claims are not adequately supported by the experimental evidence: primarily because the evidence is indirect and circumstantial, but also because multiple unusual experimental choices (along with poor presentation of results) undermine the reader's confidence. Additionally, the authors overstate the novelty of certain results and fail to cite important related publications. Some of these weaknesses can be addressed by improved analysis and statistics, resolving inconsistent data across figures, reorganizing/improving figure panels, more complete methods, improved citations, and proofreading. In particular, given the emphasis on EPSPs, the primary data (for example EPSPs, overlaid conditions) should be shown much more.

      However, on the experimental side, addressing the reviewer's concerns would require a very substantial additional effort: direct measurement of HCN density at different points in the dendritic arbor and soma; the internal solution chosen here (K-gluconate) is reported to inhibit HCN; bath-applied cesium at the concentrations used blocks multiple potassium channels, i.e. is not selective for HCN (the fact that the more selective blocker ZD7288 was used in a subset of experiments makes the choice of Cs+ as the primary blocker all the more curious); pathway-specific synaptic stimulation, for example via optogenetic activation of specific long-range inputs, to complement / support / verify the layer-specific electrical stimulation.

      We thank the reviewer for their very careful examination of our manuscript and helpful suggestions. We addressed the concerns raised in the review and presented more raw traces in our figures. Although direct dendritic HCN mapping measurements are outside the scope of the current manuscript due to the morphological constraints presented by L2/3 PCs (which explains why no other full dendritic nonlinearity distribution has been described in L2/3 PCs with this method), we nonetheless supplemented our manuscript with additional suggested experiments as suggested. For example, we included the excellent suggestion of pathway-specific optogenetic stimulation to further validate the disparate effect of HCN channels for distal and proximal inputs. We agree that ZD-7288 is a widely accepted blocker of HCN channels. However, the off-target effects on sodium channels may have significantly confounded our measurements of AP output using extracellular stimulation. Therefore, we chose low concentration cesium as the primary blocker for those experiments, but now validated several other Cs<sup>+</sup>-based results with ZD-7288 as well.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I have some issues that need clarification or correction.

      (1) On page 3, line 90, the authors state "We found that bath application of Cs+ (1mM)..." but the methods and Figure 1 state "2mM Cs+". Please check and correct.

      Correct, typo corrected.

      (2) Related to Cs+ application, the methods state that "CsMeSO4 (2mM) was bath applied..." Is this correct? CsMeSO4 is typically used intracellularly while CsCl is used extracellularly. If so, please justify. If not, please correct.

      It is correct. The justification for not using CsCl selectively extracellularly is that introducing intracellular chloride ions can significantly alter basic biophysical properties, unrelated to the cesium effect. However, no similar distinction has been made for CsMeSO4, which would exclude the use of this drug extracellularly.

      (3) The authors normalize the current injections by cell capacitance (pA/pF). Was this done because there is a significant variance in cell morphology? A bit of justification for why the authors chose to normalize the current injection this way would help. If there is significant variation in cell capacitance across cells (or developmental ages), the authors could also include these data.

      Indeed, we choose to normalize current injection to cellular capacitance due to the markedly different morphology of deep and superficial L2/3 PCs. Deeper L2/3 PCs have a pronounced apical branch, closely resembling other pyramidal cell types such as L5 PCs, while superficial L2/3 PC lack a thick main apical branch and instead are equipped with multiple, thinner apical dendrites. This morphological variation would yield an inherent bias in several of the reported measurements, therefore we corrected for it by normalizing current injection to cellular capacitance, similar to our previous recent publications (Olah, Goettemoeller et al., 2022, Goettemoeller et al. 2024, Kumar et al. 2024).

      (4) On page 15, line 445, the section heading is "PV cell NEURON modeling". Is this a typo? The models are of L2/3 pyramidal neurons, correct?  

      Correct, typo corrected.

      (5) Figures 3F and 3I are plots of the voltage integral for different inputs before and after Cs+. The y-axis label units are "pA*ms". This should be "mV*ms" for a voltage integral.  

      Correct, typo corrected.

      (6) On page 9, line 273, the text reads "Voltage clamp experiments revealed that the rectification of steady-state voltage responses to hyperpolarizing current injection was amplified with 5-CT (Fig. 7c)". Both the text and Figure 7C describe current clamp, not voltage clamp, recordings. Please check and correct.

      Correct, typo corrected.

      (7) Figure 2i looks to be a normalized conductance vs voltage (i.e. activation) plot. The y-axis shows 0-1 but the units are in nS. Is that a coincidence or an error?

      Correct, typo corrected.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      This is your paper. My comments are my own opinion, I don't expect you to agree or to respond. But I hope that what I wrote below will help you to understand my perspective.

      Please pardon my directness (and sheer volume) in this section - I have a lot of notes/thoughts and hope you may find some of them helpful. My high-level comments are unfortunately rather critical, and in (small) part that is because I encountered too many errors/typos/ambiguities in figures, legend, and text. I expect many would be caught with good proofreading, but uncorrected caused confusion on my part, or an inability to interpret your figures with confidence, given some ambiguity.

      The paper reads a bit like patchwork - likely a result of many "helpful" reviewers who came before me. Consider starting with and focusing on the synaptic findings, expanding the number of figures and panels dedicated to that, showing example traces for all conditions, and giving yourself the space to portray these complex experiments and results. While I'm not a fan of a large number of supplemental figures, I feel you could move the "extra" results to the supplementals to improve the focus and get right to the meat of it.

      For me, the main concern is that the evidence you present for the non-uniform HCN distribution is rather indirect. Ideally, I'd like to see patch recordings from various dendritic locations (as others have done in rats, at least; I'm not sure if L2/3 mice have had such conductance density measurements made in basal and apical dendrites). Otherwise, perhaps optical mapping, either functional or via staining. I also mention some concerns about the choice of internal and cesium. More generally, I want to see more primary data (traces), in particular for the big synaptic findings (non-uniform, L1-vs-L4 differences, NMDAR).

      We thank the reviewer for the helpful suggestions. Indeed, direct patch clamp recording is widely considered to be the best method to identify dendritic ion channel distribution, however, we choose an in silico approach instead, for several reasons. Undoubtedly, one of the main reasons to omit direct dendritic recordings was that due to the uniquely narrow apical dendrites this method is extremely challenging, with no previous examples in the literature where isolated dendritic outside-out patch recordings were achieved from this cell type. However, there are theoretical considerations as well. In primates, it has been demonstrated that HCN1 channels are concentrated on dendritic spines (Datta et al., 2023) therefore direct outside-out recordings are not adequate in these circumstances. In future experiments we could directly target L2/3 PC dendrites for outside out recordings in order to resolve dendritic nonlinearity distribution, although a cell-attached methodology may be better suited due to the HCN biophysical properties being closely regulated by intracellular signaling pathways.

      The introduction and Figures 1 and 2 are not so interesting and not entirely accurate: L2/3 do not have "abundant" HCN, nor is there an actual controversy about whether they have HCN. It's been clear (published) for years that they have about the same as all other non-PT neocortical pyramidal neurons (see e.g. Larkum 2007; Sheets 2011). Your own Figure 1A has a logarithmic scale and shows L2/3 as having the lowest expression (?) of all pyramidals and roughly 10x lower than L5 PT, but the text says "comparable", which is misleading.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. Although there are sporadic reports in the literature about the HCN content of L2/3 PCs, most of these publications arrive to the same conclusion from the negligible sag potential (as the mentioned Larkum et al., 2007 publication); namely that L2/3 PCs do not contain significant amount of HCN channels. We have shown with voltage and current clamp recordings that this assumption is false, as sag potential is not a reliable indicator of HCN content in L2/3 PCs. With the term “controversial” we aimed to highlight the different conclusions of functional investigations (e.g. Sheets et al., 2011) and sag potential recordings (e.g. Larkum et al., 2007), regarding the importance of HCN channels in L2/3 PCs.

      Non-uniform HCN with distal lower density has already been published for a (rare) pyramidal neuron in CA1 (Bullis 2007), similar to what you found in L2/3, and different from the main CA1 population.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We have now included the mentioned citation in the introduction section (page 3).

      Express sag as a ratio or percentage, consistently. Figure out why in Figure 7 the average sag ratio is 0.02 while in Fig. S1 it is 0.07 (for V1) - that is a massive difference.

      The calculation of sag ratio is consistent across the manuscript (at -6pA.pF), except for experiments depicted in Fig. 7 where sag ratio was calculated from -2pA/pF steps. Explanation below:

      Sag should be measured at a common membrane potential, with each neuron receiving a current pulse appropriate to reach that potential. Your approach of capacitance-based may allow for the same, but it is not clear which responses are used to calculate a single sag value per cell (as in Figure 2d).

      Thank you, we now included this info in the methods section. Sag potential was measured at the -6 pA/pF step peak voltage, except for Fig. 7 as noted above. We have now included this discrepancy detail in the methods section (page 14 ). These recordings in Fig. 7 took significantly longer than any other recording in the manuscript, as it took a considerable time to reach steady-state response from 5-CT application. -6pA/pF is a current injection in the range of 400-800 pA, which was proven to be too severe for continued application in cells after more than an hour of recording. Accordingly, we decided to lower the hyperpolarizing current step in these recordings. The absolute value of sag is thus different in Fig. 7, but nonetheless the 5-CT effect was still significant. Notably, we probably wouldn’t have noticed the small sag in L2/3 here (and thus the entire study), save for the fact that we looked at -6pA/pF to begin.

      In a paper focused on HCN, I would have liked to see resonance curves in the passive characterization.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. Resonance curves can indeed provide useful insights into the impact of HCN on a cell’s physiological behavior, however, these experiments are outside the scope of our current manuscript as without in vivo recordings, resonance curves do not contribute to the manuscript in our opinion.

      How did you identify L2/3? Did you target cells in L2 or L3 or in the middle, or did you sample across the full layer width for each condition? A quantitative diagram showing where you patched (soma) and where you stimulated (L1, L4) with actual measurements, would be helpful (supplemental perhaps). You mention in the text that some L2/3 don't have a tuft, suggesting some variability in morphology - some info on this would be useful, i.e. since you did fill at least some of the neurons (eg 3A), how similar/different are the dendritic arbors?

      We sampled the entire L2/3 region during our recordings. It has been published that deep and superficial L2/3  PCs are markedly different in their morphology, and a recent publication (Brandelise et al. 2023) has even separated these two subpopulations to broad-tufted and slender tufted pyramidal cells, which receive distinct subcortical inputs. Although this differentiation opens exciting avenues for future research, examining potential layer gradients in our dataset would warrant significantly higher sample numbers and is currently out of the scope of our manuscript.

      Distal vs proximal: this could use more clarification, considering how central it is to your results. What about a synapse on a basal dendrite, but 150 or 200 um from the soma, is that considered proximal? Is the distance to the soma you report measured along the 3D dendrite, along the 2D dendrite, as a straight line to the soma, or just relative to some layers or cortical markers? (I apologize if I missed this).

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out the missing description in the results section. We have amended this oversight (p15).  Furthermore, although deeper L3 PCs have characteristic apical and basal dendritic branches, when recordings were made from more superficial L2 cells, a large portion of their dendrites extended radially, which made their classification ambiguous. Therefore, we did not use “apical” and “basal” terminology in the paper to avoid confusion. Distances were measured along the 3D reconstructed surface of the recovered pyramidal cells. This information is now included in the methods.

      Line 445, "PV cell NEURON modeling" ... hmm. Everyone re-uses methods sections to some degree, but this is not confidence-inspiring, and also not from a proofreading perspective.

      We have corrected the typo.

      It seems that you constructed a new HCN NEURON mechanism when several have been published/reviewed already. Please explain your reasons or at least comment on the differences.

      There are slight differences in our model compared to previously published models. Nevertheless, we took a previously published HCN model as a base (Gasparini et al, 2004), and created our own model to fit our whole-cell voltage clamp recordings.

      Bath-applied Cs+ can change synaptic transmission (in the hippocampus; Chevaleyre 2002). But also ZD7288 has some such effects. Also, see (Harris 1995) for a Cs+ and ZD7288 comparison. As well as (Harris 1994) for more Cs+ side-effects (it broadens APs, etc). Bath-applied blockers may affect both long-range and local synapses in your recordings, via K-channels or perhaps presynaptic HCN (though I am aware of your Fig. 1e). Since you can do intracellular perfusion, you could apply ZD7288 postsynaptically (Sheets 2011), an elegant solution.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. We were aware of the potential presynaptic effects of cesium (i.e., presynaptic Kv or other channel effects) and did measure PPR after cesium application (Fig. 1h), noting no effect. At Cs<sup>+</sup> concentrations used here, we now also include new data in the results showing no effect on somatically recorded AP waveform (i.e., representative of a Kv channel effect). As stated earlier for reviewer 1, we now performed additional experiments using either cesium or ZD-7288 for comparison (e.g., see updated Fig. 1; Supplementary Figure 1; Fig. 3b-e). Intracellular ZD re-perfusion is an elegant solution which we will absolutely consider in future experiments.

      K-Gluconate is reported to inhibit Ih (Velumian 1997), consider at least some control experiments with a different internal for the main synaptic finding - maybe you'll find no big change ...

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. Although K-Gluconate can inhibit HCN current, the use of this intracellular solution is often used in the literature to measure this current (Huang & Trussel 2014). We have chosen this intracellular solution to improve recording stability.  

      (Biel 2009) is a very comprehensive HCN review, you may find it useful.

      We thank the reviewer for bringing this to our attention, we have now included the citation in the introduction.

      "Hidden" in your title seems too much.

      We changed the title to more accurately describe our findings and removed ‘hidden’.

      While I'm glad you didn't record at room temperature, the choice of 30C seems a bit unfortunate - if you go to the trouble to heat the bath, why not at least 34C, which is reasonably standard as an approximation for physiological temperature?

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. The choice of 30C was made to approach physiological temperature levels, while preserving the slices for extended amounts of time which is a standard approach. Future experiments in vivo be performed to further understand the naturalistic relevance at ~37C.

      Line 506: do you mean "Hz" here? It's not a frequency, is it? I think it's a unitless ratio?

      Correct, we have amended the typo.

      Line 95: you have not shown that HCN is "essential" for "excess" AP firing.

      We have corrected the phrasing, we agree.

      Fig. 2b,c: is this data from a single example neuron, maybe the same neuron as in 2a? Or from all recorded neurons pooled?

      The data is from several recorded cells pooled.

      Fig. 3 (important figure):

      Why did you not use a paired test for panels e and f? You have the same number of neurons for each condition and the expectation is that you record each neuron in control and then in cesium condition, which would be a paired comparison. Or did you record only 1 condition per neuron?

      This figure presents your main finding (in my opinion). You should show examples of the synaptic responses, i.e. raw traces, for each condition and panel, and overlaid in such a way that the reader can immediately see the relevant comparison - it's worth the space it requires.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestions. Traces are only overlaid in the paper when they come from the same cell. For Fig. 3d-i, EPSPs in every neuron were evoked in 2-3 different locations (i.e., 1-2 ‘L4’ locations for Type-I and Type-II synapses, and one ‘L1’ location in each) with the same stimulation pipette and one pharmacological condition per cell. Therefore two-sample t-test were used since the control and cesium conditions came from separate cells (i.e., separate observations). This was necessary, as we can never assume that the stimulating electrode can return back to the same synapse after moving it. We were not comfortable with showing overlaid traces from different cells, however, we did show representative traces from control and the Cs<sup>+</sup> conditions in Fig. 3h. Complementary ZD-7288 experiments can be found on panel b and c, where we did perform within-cell pharmacology (and thus used paired t-tests) from one stimulation area/cell. We hope these complementary experiments increase overall confidence as neither pharmacological approach is 100% without off-target effects. We now also included more overlaid traces where appropriate (i.e., Fig. 3b, and in the new  Fig. 3k experiments using within-cell pharmacology comparisons). We do realize these complementary approaches could cause confusion to the reader, and have now done our best to make the slightly different approaches in this Figure clearer in the results section.

      Consider repeating at least some of these critical experiments with ZD7288 instead of Cs+ (and not K-gluc), or even with ZD7288 pipette perfusion, if it's technically feasible here.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestions. Although many of our recordings using Cs<sup>+</sup> already had complementary experiments (such as synaptic experiments Figure 3e vs Figure 3b), we recognize the need to extend the manuscript with more ZD-7288 experiments. We have now extended Figure 1 with three panels (Figure 1 c,d,e), which recapitulates a fundamental finding, the change in overall excitability upon HCN channel blockade, using ZD-7288 as well.

      Fig. 3a, why show a schematic (and weirdly scaled) stimulating electrode? Don't you have a BF photo showing the actual stimulating electrode, which you could trace to scale or overlay? Could you use this panel to indicate what counts as "distal" and what as "proximal", visually?

      The stimulating electrode was unfortunately not filled with florescent materials, therefore it was not captured during the z-stack.

      Fig. 3b: is the y-axis labeled correctly? A "100% change" would mean a doubling, but based on the data points here I think y=100% means "no change"?

      The scale is labeled correctly, 100% means doubling.

      Fig. 3b, c: again, show traces representing distal and proximal, not just one example (without telling us how far it was). And use those traces to illustrate the half-width measurement, which may be non-trivial.

      We have extended Figure 3b with an inset showing the effect of ZD-7288 on a proximal stimulating site. The legend now includes additional information indicating stimulating location 28 µm away from the soma in control conditions (black trace) and upon Z-7288 application (green trace).  

      Line 543, 549: it seems you swapped labels "h" and "i"?

      Typo corrected.

      Fig. 4b: to me, MK-801 only *partially* blocks amplification, but in the text L198 you write "abolish".

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. Indeed, there are several other subthreshold mechanisms that are still intact after pipette perfusion, which can cause amplification. We have now clarified this in the text (p7).

      Fig. 4e,f: what is the message? Uniform NMDAR? The red asterisk in (e) is at a proximal/distal ratio of roughly 1. I don't understand the meaning of the asterisk (the legend is too basic) and I'm surprised to see a ratio of 1 as the best fit, and also that the red asterisk is at a dendritic distance of 0 um in (f). This could use more explanation (if you feel it's relevant).

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. We have now included a better explanation in the results and figure legend. We have also updated the figure to make it clearer and added model traces in Fig. 4f, which correspond to example data from slices in Fig. 4g (both green). The graph suggests nonuniform, proximally abundant NMDA distribution. The color coding corresponds to the proximal EPSP halfwidth divided by distal EPSP halfwidth. It is true that the dendritic distance ‘center’ was best-fit very close to the soma, but also note the dispersion (distribution) half-width was >150mm, so there is quite a significant dendritic spread despite the proximal bias prediction. Based on this model there is likely NMDA spread throughout the entire dendrite, but biased proximally. Naturally, future work will need to map this at the spine level so this is currently an oversimplification. Nonetheless, a proximal NMDA bias was necessary to recapitulate findings from Fig. 3, and additional slice recordings in Fig. 4 were consistent with this interpretation.

      Fig. 4g: I feel your choice of which traces to overlay is focusing on the wrong question. As the reader, what I want to see here is an overlay of all 4 conditions for one pathway. If this is a sequential recording in a single cell (Cs, Cs+MK801, wash out Cs, MK801), then the overlay would be ideal and need not be scaled. Otherwise, you can scale it. But the L1/L4 comparison does not seem appropriate to me. I find myself trying to imagine what all the dark lines would look like overlaid, and all the light lines overlaid separately. Also, the time axis is missing from this panel. Consider a subtraction of traces (if appropriate).

      In these recordings, all EPSPs cells were measured using a stimulating electrode that was moved between L1 and L4 (only once, to keep the exact input consistent) to measure the different inputs in a single neuron. In separate sets of experiments, the same method was used but in the presence of Cs<sup>+</sup>, Cs<sup>+</sup> + MK-801, or MK-801 alone. This was the most controlled method in our hands for this type of approach, as drug wash outs were either impractical or not possible.  Overlaying four traces would have presented a more cluttered image, and were not actually performed experimentally. As our aim was to resolve the proximal-distal halfwidth relationship, therefore we deemed the within-cell L1 vs. L4 comparison appropriate. We have nonetheless added model traces in Fig. 4f, which correspond to example data from slices in Fig. 4g (both green). The bar graphs should serve also serve to illustrate the input-specific  relationship- i.e., that the only time the L1 and L4 EPSP relationship was inverted was in the presence of Cs<sup>+</sup> (green bars) and that this effect was occluded with simultaneous MK-801 in the pipette (red bars).

      Line 579: should "hyperpolarized" be depolarized?

      Corrected

      Fig. 5a: it looks like the HCN density is high in the most basal dendrites (black curve above), then drops towards the soma, then rises again in the apicals (red curve). Is that indeed how the density was modeled? If so, this is completely at odds with the impression I received from reading your text and experimental data - there, "proximal" seems to mean where the L4 axons are, and "distal" seems to mean where the L1 axons are, in other words, high HCN towards the pia and low HCN towards the white matter. But this diagram suggests a biphasic hill-valley-hill distribution of HCN (meaning there is a second "distal" region below the soma). In that case, would the laterally-distant basal dendrites also be considered distal? How does the model implement the distribution - is it 1D, 2D or 3D? As you can probably tell, this figure raised more questions for me and made me wonder why I don't have a better understanding yet of your definitions.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. We agree our initial cartoon of the parameter fitting procedure was not accurate and should have just been depicted a single ‘curve’. We have now simplified it to better demonstrate what the model is testing, and also made the terms more consistent and accurate. There is no ‘second’ region in the model. We hope this better illustrates it now. We also edited the legend to be clearer. Because the model description in Fig. 4d suffered from similar shortcomings, we also modified it accordingly as well as the figure legend there.

      Fig. 5b: why is the best fit at a proximal/distal ratio of 1, yet sigma is 50 um?

      Proximal/distal bias on this figure was fitted to 0.985 (prox/distal ratio) as we modeled control conditions, with intact NDMA and HCN channels,  which closely approximated the control recording comparisons.

      Fig. 6h, Line 662: "vs CsMeSO4 ... for putative LGN events" The panel shows proximal vs distal, not control vs Cs+. What's going on here?

      Typo corrected.

      Fig. 7e: the ctrl sag ratio here averages 0.02, while in Fig. S1 the average (for V1 and others) is about 0.07.  Please refer to our answer given to the previous question regarding sag ratio measurements. Briefly, recordings made with 5-CT application were made using a less severe, -2 pA/pF current injection to test seg responses. This more modest hyperpolarization activated less HCN channels, therefore the sag ratio is lower compared to previously reported datapoints.

      We have included this explanation in the methods section (page 14)

      Now hear you are using a paired test for this pharmacology, but you didn't previously (see my earlier comments/questions).

      Paired t-test were used for these experiments as these control and test datapoints came from the same cell. Cells were recorded in control conditions, and after drug application.

      Line 137: single-axon activation: but cortical axons make multi-synaptic contacts, at least for certain types of pre- and post-synaptic neurons, and (e.g. in L5-L5 pairs) those contacts can be distributed across the entire dendritic arbor. In other words, it's possible that when you stimulate in L1, you activate local axons, and the signal could then propagate to multiple synaptic contact locations, some being distal and some proximal. Maybe you have reasons to believe you're able to avoid this?

      We thank the reviewer for this question. Cortical axons often make distributed contacts, however, top-down and bottom-up pathways innervating L2/3 PCs are at least somewhat restricted to L2/3/L4 and L1, respectively (Shen et al. 2022, Sermet et al. 2019). Therefore, due to the lack evidence suggesting a heavily mixed topographical distribution for top-down and bottom-up inputs, we have reason to believe that L1 stimulation will result in mainly distal input recruitment, while L4 stimulation will mainly excite proximal dendritic regions. The resolution of our experiments was also improved by the minimal stimulation and visual guidance (subset of experiments) of the stimulation. Furthermore, new optogenetic experiments stimulating LGN and LM axons, which have been anatomically defined previously as biased to deeper layers and L1, respectively, were now also performed (Fig. 3j-l) with analogous cesium effects as our local electrical stimulation experiments. Future work using varying optogenetic stimulation parameters will expand on this.

      L140: "previous reports" ==> citation needed.

      We have inserted the citation needed.

      L149: "arriving to layer 1"; but I think earlier you noted that some or many L2/3 neurons lack a dendritic tuft; do they all nevertheless have dendrites in L1? Note that cortico-cortical long-range axons still need to pass through all cortical layers on their way up to L1.

      We thank the reviewer for the question. Although the more superficial L2/3 PCs lack distinct apical tuft, their dendrites reach the pia similarly to deeper L2/3 PCs. All of our recorded and post-hoc recovered cells had dendrites in L1, except in cases where they were clearly cut during the slicing procedure, which cells were occluded from the study.

      When you write "L4 axons" or "L4 inputs", do you specifically mean long-range thalamic axons? Or axons from local L4 neurons? What about axons in L4 that originate from L5 pyramidal neurons?

      In case of ‘L4’ axons, we cannot disambiguate these inputs a priori, as they are both part of the bottom-up pathway, and are possibly experimentally indistinguishable. Even with restricted opto LGN stimulation, disynaptic inputs via L4 PCs cannot be completely ruled out under our conditions. On the other hand, the probability of L5 PC axons to terminate on L2/3 PCs is exceedingly low (single reported connection out of 1145 potential connections; Hage et al. 2022). We did find two clearly different synaptic subpopulations (Supp. Fig 3) in L4- which was tempting to classify as one or the other. However we felt there was not enough evidence in the literature as well as our additional optogenetic experiments to make a classification on the source of these different L4 inputs. Thus we deemed them as Type-I or Type-II for now.

      Do you inject more holding current to compensate for the resting membrane potential when Cs+ or ZD7288 is in the bath?

      We thank the reviewer for the question. We did not inject a compensatory current, as we wanted to investigate the dual, physiologically relevant action of HCN channels (George et al. 2009)

      I'd like to see distributions (histograms) of L4 and L1 EPSP amplitudes, under control conditions and ideally also under HCN block.

      We have now extended the manuscript with a supplementary figure (Supplementary Figure 6) to show that EPSP peak was not distance dependent in control conditions, and there was no relationship between peak and halfwidth in our dataset.

      Line 186, custom pipette perfusion: why not use this for internal ZD7288, to make it cell-specific?

      We thank the reviewer for the question, this is a good point. In future work we will consider this when applicable. It is certainly a way to control for bath application confounds in many ways.

      L205: "recapitulate our experimental findings" - which findings do you mean? I think a bit of explanation/referencing would help.

      Corrected.

      Line 210: L4-evoked were narrower than L1-evoked: is this not expected based on filtering?

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out, the word “Intriguingly” has been omitted.

      Line 231 and 235: "in L5 PCs" should be restricted to L5 PT-type PCs.

      We have corrected this throughout the manuscript.

      Neuromodulation, Fig. 7, L263-282: the neuromodulation finding is interesting. However, a bit like the developmental figure, it feels "tacked on" and the transition feels a bit awkward. I think you may want to discuss/cite more of the existing literature on neuromodulatory interactions with HCN (not just L2/3). Most importantly, what I feel is missing is a connection to your main finding, namely L1 and L4 inputs. Does serotonergic neuromodulation put L1 and L4 back on equal footing, or does it exaggerate the differences?

      We thank the reviewer for the question. We agree with the reviewer that Figure 7 does not give a complete picture about how the adult brain can capitalize on this channel distribution, as our intention was to show that HCN channels are not a stationary feature of L2/3 PC, but a feature which can be regulated developmentally and even in the adult brain via neuromodulation. In other words, the subthreshold NMDA boosting we observed can be gated by HCN, depending on developmental stage and/or neuromodulatory state of the system. We have now added some brief language to better introduce the transition and its relevance to the current study in the results (p8), and discussed the implications in the discussion section of the original manuscript.

      General comment: different types/sources of synapses may have different EPSP kinetics. I feel this is not mentioned/discussed adequately, considering your emphasis on EPSPs/HCN.

      See points above on input-specific synaptic diversity.

      Line 319/320: enriched distal HCN is found in L5 PT-type, not in all L5 PCs.

      Corrected

      L320: CA1 reportedly has a subset of pyramidal neurons that have higher proximal HCN than distal (I gave the citation above). In light of that, I think "unprecedented" is an overstatement.

      Corrected.

      Methods:

      L367: What form of anesthesia was used?

      Amended.

      Which brain areas, and how?

      Amended.

      Why did you first hold slices at 34C, but during recording hold at 30C?

      We held the slices at 34C to accelerate the degradation of superficial damaged parts of the slice, which is in line with currently used acute slice preparation methodologies, regardless of the subsequent recording temperature.

      Pipette resistance/tip size?

      Amended.

      Cell-attached recordings (L385): provide details of recordings. What was the command potential (fixed value, or did you adjust it per neuron by some criteria)?

      Amended.

      What type of stimulating electrode did you use? If glass, what solution is inside, and what tip size?

      We thank the reviewer for pointing these out, the specific points were added to the methods section.

      L392/393: you adjusted the holding (bias) current to sit at -80 mV. What were the range and max values of holding current? Was -80 mV the "raw" potential, or did it account for liquid junction? If you did not account for liquid junction potential, then would -80 in your hands effectively be between -95 and -90 mV? That seems unusually hyperpolarized.

      All cells were held with bias holding currents between -50 pA and 150 pA. To be clear, as mentioned below, we did not change the bias current after any drug applications. We did not correct for liquid junction potential, and cells were ‘held‘ with bias current at -80 mV as during our recordings, as 1) this value was apparently close to the RMP (i.e. little bias current needed at this voltage on average) (Fig. 2e) and 2) to keep consistent conditions across recordings. The uncorrected -80 mV is in the range of previously reported membrane potential values both in vivo and in vitro (Svoboda et al. 1999, Oswald et al. 2008, Luo et al. 2017), which found the (corrected) RMP to be below -80mV. Naturally this will not reflect every in vivo condition completely and further investigation using naturalistic conditions in the future are warranted.  

      Did you adjust the bias current during/after pharmacology?

      Bias current was not adjusted in order to resolve the effect on resting membrane potential.

      L398: sag calculation could use better explanation: how did you combine/analyze multiple steps from a single neuron when calculating sag? Did you choose one level (how) or did you average across step sizes or ...?

      Sag ratio was measured at -6 pA/pF current step except for one set of experiments in Fig. 7. Methods section was amended.

      L400, 401: 10 uM Alexa-594 or 30 um Alexa-594, which is correct?

      10 µM is correct, typo was corrected

      L445: "PV cell" seems like a typo?

      Typo is corrected.

      L450: "altered", please describe the algorithm or manual process.

      Alterations were made manually.

      L474: NDMA, typo.

      Typo is fixed.

      L474: "were adjusted", again please describe the process.

      Adjustments were made by a grid-search algorithm.

      Biel, M., Wahl-Schott, C., Michalakis, S., & Zong, X. (2009). Hyperpolarization-activated cation channels: from genes to function. Physiological reviews, 89(3), 847-885. https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/physrev.00029.2008 - (very comprehensive review of HCN)

      Bullis JB, Jones TD, Poolos NP. Reversed somatodendritic I(h) gradient in a class of rat hippocampal neurons with pyramidal morphology. J Physiol. 2007 Mar 1;579(Pt 2):431-43. doi: 10.1113/jphysiol.2006.123836. Epub 2006 Dec 21. PMID: 17185334; PMCID: PMC2075407. https://physoc.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1113/jphysiol.2006.123836 - (CA1 subset (PLPs) have a reversed HCN gradient; cell-attached patches, NMDAR)

      Velumian AA, Zhang L, Pennefather P, Carlen PL. Reversible inhibition of IK, IAHP, Ih, and ICa currents by internally applied gluconate in rat hippocampal pyramidal neurones. Pflugers Arch. 1997 Jan;433(3):343-50. doi: 10.1007/s004240050286. PMID: 9064651. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s004240050286 - (K-Gluc internal inhibits HCN)

      Sheets, P. L., Suter, B. A., Kiritani, T., Chan, C. S., Surmeier, D. J., & Shepherd, G. M. (2011). Corticospinal-specific HCN expression in mouse motor cortex: I h-dependent synaptic integration as a candidate microcircuit mechanism involved in motor control. Journal of neurophysiology, 106(5), 2216-2231. https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/jn.00232.2011 - (L2/3 IT have same sag ratio as all other non-PT pyramidals, roughly 5% (vs 20% PT); intracellular ZD7288 used at 10 or 25 um)

      Harris NC, Constanti A. Mechanism of block by ZD 7288 of the hyperpolarization-activated inward rectifying current in guinea pig substantia nigra neurons in vitro. J Neurophysiol. 1995 Dec;74(6):2366-78. doi: 10.1152/jn.1995.74.6.2366. PMID: 8747199. https://journals.physiology.org/doi/abs/10.1152/jn.1995.74.6.2366 - (comparison Cs+ and ZD7288)

      Harris, N. C., Libri, V., & Constanti, A. (1994). Selective blockade of the hyperpolarization-activated cationic current (Ih) in guinea pig substantia nigra pars compacta neurones by a novel bradycardic agent, Zeneca ZM 227189. Neuroscience letters, 176(2), 221-225. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0304394094900876 - (Cs+ is not HCN-selective; it also broadens APs, reduces the AHP)

      Chevaleyre, V., & Castillo, P. E. (2002). Assessing the role of Ih channels in synaptic transmission and mossy fiber LTP. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 99(14), 9538-9543. https://pnas.org/doi/abs/10.1073/pnas.142213199 - (Cs+ blocks K channels, increases transmitter release; but also ZD7288 affects synaptic transmission)

      Thank you

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife Assessment

      Early-life adversity or stress can enhance stress susceptibility by causing changes in emotion, cognition, and reward-seeking behaviors. This important manuscript highlights the involvement of lateral amygdala astrocytes in fear generalization and the associated synaptic plasticity, which are parallel to the effects of early life stress. With an elegant combination of behavioral models, morphological and functional assessments using immunostaining, electrophysiology, and viral-mediated loss-of-function approaches, the authors provide solid correlational and causal evidence that is consistent with the hypothesis that early life stress produces neural and behavioral dysfunction via perturbing lateral amygdala astrocytic function.

      We would like to thank the authors and editors for taking the time to review our work, and re-review it now. Also, we are grateful for this very positive assessment of our work. In this revised manuscript we made a strong effort to address comments made by all reviewers, providing clarification where required and new data to our manuscript in order to further support our observations.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The manuscript asks the question of whether astrocytes contribute to behavioral deficits triggered by early life stress. This question is tested by experiments that monitor the effects of early life stress on anxiety-like behaviors, long-term potentiation in the lateral amygdala, and immunohistochemistry of astrocyte-specific (GFAP, Cx43, GLT-1) and general activity (c-Fos ) markers. Secondarily, astrocyte activity in the lateral amygdala is impaired by viruses that suppress gap-junction coupling or reduce astrocyte Ca2+ followed by behavioral, synaptic plasticity, and c-Fos staining. Early life stress is found to reduce the expression of GFAP and Cx43 and to induce translocation of the glucocorticoid receptor to astrocytic nuclei. Both early life stress and astrocyte manipulations are found to result in the generalization of fear to neutral auditory cues. All of the experiments are done well with appropriate statistics and control groups. The manuscript is very well-written and the data are presented clearly. The authors' conclusion that lateral amygdala astrocytes regulate amygdala-dependent behaviors is strongly supported by the data. However, the extent to which astrocytes contribute to behavioral and neuronal consequences of early life stress remains open to debate.

      Strengths:

      A strong combination of behavioral, electrophysiology, and immunostaining approaches is utilized and possible sex differences in behavioral data are considered. The experiments clearly demonstrate that disruption of astrocyte networks or reduction of astrocyte Ca2+ provokes generalization of fear and impairs long-term potentiation in the lateral amygdala. The provocative finding that astrocyte dysfunction accounts for a subset of behavioral effects of early life stress (e.g. not elevated plus or distance traveled observations) is also perceived as a strength.

      Weaknesses:

      The main weakness is the absence of more direct evidence that behavioral and neuronal plasticity after early life stress can be attributed to astrocytes. It remains unknown what would happen if astrocyte activity were disrupted concurrently with early life stress or if the facilitation of astrocyte Ca2+ would attenuate early life stress outcomes. As is, the only evidence that early life stress involves astrocytes is nuclear translocation of GR and downregulation of GFAP and Cx43 in Figure 3 which may or may not provoke astrocyte Ca2+ or astrocyte network activity changes.

      We would like to thank the reviewer for their constructive feedback on our work. In the revised version we have added new experiments that further support a role of astrocytes in ELS-induced behavioural dysfunction. Specifically, we carried out two-photon calcium imaging in lateral amygdala astrocytes using viral overexpression of membrane tethered GCaMP6f. These experiments revealed a decrease in astrocyte calcium activity following ELS (Figure 4). Interestingly these data also showed an important number of sex differences (Figure 4 - Figure supplement 1).

      These new data allow us to strengthen the link between ELS-induced astrocyte hypofunction and behavioural changes. Indeed, we validated the impact of CalEx on astrocyte calcium activity in the lateral amygdala, again using two-photon microscopy, and show that CalEx resulted in an astrocyte calcium signature that very closely resembled that of ELS, i.e. reduced frequency and amplitude of events (Figure 5 - Figure supplement 2). As such, we feel like these data, while still correlative in nature, strengthen our findings and conclusion that astrocyte dysfunction alone is sufficient to recapitulate the effects of stress on excitability, synaptic function, and behaviour.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, Guayasamin et al. show that early-life stress (ELS) can induce a shift in fear generalisation in mice. They took advantage of a fear conditioning paradigm followed by a discrimination test and complemented learning and memory findings with measurements for anxiety-like behaviors. Next, astrocytic dysfunction in the lateral amygdala was investigated at the cellular level by combining staining for c-Fos with astrocyte-related proteins. Changes in excitatory neurotransmission were observed in acute brains slices after ELS suggesting impaired communication between neurons and astrocytes. To confirm the causality of astrocytic-neuronal dysfunction in behavioral changes, viral manipulations were performed in unstressed mice. Occlusion of functional coupling with a dominant negative construct for gap junction connexin 43 or reduction in astrocytic calcium with CalEx mimicked the behavioral changes observed after ELS suggesting that dysfunction of the astrocytic network underlies ELS-induced memory impairments.

      Strengths:

      Overall, this well-written manuscript highlights a key role for astrocytes in regulating stress-induced behavioral and synaptic deficits in the lateral amygdala in the context of ELS. Results are innovative, and methodological approaches relevant to decipher the role of astrocytes in behaviors. As mentioned by the authors, non-neuronal cells are receiving increasing attention in the neuroscience, stress, and psychiatry fields.

      Weaknesses:

      I do have several suggestions and comments to address that I believe will improve the clarity and impact of the work. For example, there is currently a lack of information on the timeline for behavioral experiments, tissue collection, etc.

      We thank the reviewer for their kind comments and constructive feedback on our manuscript. We agree that certain aspects could have been made more clear and we have revised the manuscript and figures to be more explicit regarding timelines. Including the addition of timelines on figures and improved clarity in the text where possible. We have also addressed the private comments provided by the reviewers alluded to in this public review.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary

      The authors show that ELS induces a number of brain and behavioral changes in the adult lateral amygdala. These changes include enduring astrocytic dysfunction, and inducing astrocytic dysfunction via genetic interventions is sufficient to phenocopy the behavioral and neural phenotypes. This suggests that astrocyte dysfunction may play a causal role in ELS-associated pathologies.

      Strengths:

      A strength is the shift in focus to astrocytes to understand how ELS alters adult behavior.

      Weaknesses:

      The mechanistic links between some of the correlates - altered astrocytic function, changes in neural excitability, and synaptic plasticity in the lateral amygdala and behaviour - are underdeveloped.

      We thank the reviewer for their comments. We are happy that they found our shift in focus towards astrocytes to be a strength of our work. Regarding mechanistic links being underdeveloped, we have attempted to address this by placing more effort into understanding the functional changes in astrocytes and how this relates to behaviour.

      To address this comment we have used two-photon calcium imaging to quantify the impact of ELS on astrocyte calcium activity. As such, the revised manuscript contains several new figures including a detailed characterisation of the effects of ELS on astrocyte calcium activity (Figure 4), including sex differences in naive and the effects of stress (Figure 4 - Figure supplement 1), and an important validation of the impact of CalEx on astrocyte calcium activity. CalEx mirrors the impact of stress on astrocyte calcium activity reducing the frequency and amplitude of individual events (Figure 5 - Figure supplement 2).

      Considering the strong overlap of the effects of ELS and CalEx on synapses, excitability, behaviour, and now astrocyte calcium activity, we hope that this added detail addresses some of the points highlighted by the reviewer.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      The reviewers all agree on one major issue for the authors to address. There is a bit of a lack of mechanistic linking between the astrocyte function and the early life stress and these data are more correlational than causal in nature. This could either be addressed by scaling back the data interpretation and title to be more reflective of the data at hand or if the authors would consider, doing the causal experiment of examining the manipulation of astrocyte activity following early life stress to see if this does influence the phenotype.

      We agree with reviewers on this issue and realise that we have overstated our findings somewhat. As an immediate fix, suggested by reviewers, we have changed the title to more closely align with our data stating that astrocyte dysfunction is “associated with” rather than “induces” as well as adjusting our interpretations.

      In addition to this one major comment, there are a list of minor comments that the authors should consider to improve the manuscript.

      (1) A major caveat is the lack of information on the timeline for behavioral experiments, tissue collection, etc. The authors mention "Mice between ages P45-70' but considering the developmental changes occurring between late adolescence and young adulthood, I recommend adding timelines on all Figures clearly indicating when behavioral tests were performed, and tissue collected for electrophysiology or immunostaining. With corticosterone (CORT) back at baseline at P70 vs a difference observed at P45 was this time point favored? It should be clarified throughout.

      We apologise for the lack of clarity on this and have added more timelines on figures.

      The age range favoured (p45-p70), relates to adolescence a time when latent psychiatric disorders tend to manifest in humans following early-life adversity. We have clarified this choice in the text.

      (2) Given the transient increase in corticosterone levels in early-life stress mice, peaking at P45 and declining to control levels by P70, it would be informative to know whether the reported behavioral and synaptic changes differ within this time window. This may not be doable in the current approach, but this should be addressed nonetheless. Furthermore, it wasn't clear why the increase in blood corticosterone was delayed. Was this expected? How does this relate to earlier work? Wouldn't it be expected to be elevated at P17 (end of ELS period)?

      We agree that this observation was very unexpected. Initially, we expected CORT to be elevated at P17, end of ELS period. We believe that low CORT levels during the ELS paradigm can be attributed to this paradigm coinciding with the stress hyporesponsive period (SHRP) which in rodents lasts until roughly postnatal day 14. During this period, mild stressors fail to elicit CORT responses. Considering our ELS paradigm lasts from P10-P17, there is a significant overlap with the SHRP.

      This point is now included in the discussion with several citations regarding this biological phenomenon, as well as other studies that report similar findings to our own, i.e. a delayed increase in blood corticosterone levels following early-life stress.

      (3) It is mentioned that behavioral tests were performed in both sexes with no sex differences observed. Were animals of both sexes also included in other experiments (ephys, immunostaining, blood CORT analysis)? Behavioral outcomes could be the same but underlying biological processes different. This is a topic that should be discussed. Identification of males vs females on graphs would be helpful.

      We apologise for not having provided this data in the previous version of the manuscript. In the revised manuscript we provide analysis of sex differences for our initial behavioural observations (Figure 2 - Figure supplement 1), c-Fos (Figure 2 - Figure supplement 2), for GFAP and Cx43 (Figure 3 - Figure supplement 1), calcium signalling (Figure 4 - Figure supplement 1), and for CalEx and dnCx43 experiments across behaviour (Figure 5 - Figure supplement 4) and c-Fos (Figure 5 - Figure supplement 5).

      (4) How long-lasting are the generalization phenotypes? Do they outlast the transient increase in blood corticosterone? Showing this would provide a more solid foundation for future explorations.

      The reviewers raise a very important point. It remains unclear as to how long these effects last and this is something we are keen to address in future studies, with careful experiments designed to explicitly test this question, as well as subsequent questions regarding whether long-lasting effects are due to impaired brain development or whether these effects emerge due to CORT changes, or other changes, or a combination of them all?

      As an aside, an additional manuscript from our lab (Depaauw-Holt et al. 2024 bioRxiv) which uses the same stressor but focuses on distinct brain regions and behaviours uses a prolonged time window in which the effects of stress are readily observable all the way to P90.

      So while we do provide the answers in this work, it is a really great idea that we would like to follow up subsequently.

      (5) With the ELS-induced change in locomotion, I would recommend presenting open field (center, periphery) and elevated plus maze (open, closed arms) data independently. It could also be interesting to analyze corner time in the open field as well as center time in the elevated plus maze.

      We now provide data for the open field and elevated plus maze as requested. Our findings remain unchanged, but we agree with the reviewer that this way of representing the data is more clear.

      (6) For Figure 2C, the ideal stats would be an ANOVA with CS (+/-) as a within-subject variable and treatment (naive/ELS) as a between-subjects variable. Then the best support for the generalization claim would be a CS x treatment interaction. I encourage the authors to do these stats. I note that this point is mitigated by the discrimination analysis presented in 2D (where they compare naive and ELS groups directly).

      We have carried out the analysis as requested and these data further support the notion of fear generalisation in ELS mice (Figure 2 - Figure supplement 2A, B). Additionally, the analyses are included in a supplementary table. We hope that we have understood correctly, and this figure accurately reflects the reviewer’s suggestion.

      (7) In Figure 2H, why not evaluate c-Fos levels after the discrimination test which is the main behavioral outcome? This statement in the Discussion should be modified if, as per my understanding, c-Fos was measured after the fear paradigm only "We find that both ELS and astrocyte dysfunction both enhance neuronal excitability, assessed by local c-Fos staining in the lateral amygdala following auditory discriminative fear conditioning. One interpretation of these data is that astrocytes might tune engram formation, with astrocyte dysfunction, genetically or after stress, increasing c-Fos expression resulting in a loss of specificity of the memory trace and generalisation of fear.'

      We agree that further evaluation of c-Fos levels following the discrimination test would be insightful. We honestly did not consider this time point in our initial experimental design, as we considered previous reports in the literature that investigated how the numbers of cells recruited to the engram (c-Fos density) could influence memory accuracy at a later time point. As such, investigating c-Fos levels following training was our initial target. We have modified the text to be more explicit in our experimental approach.

      This is nevertheless a fascinating point that we are keen to pursue in future studies.

      (8) Some thoughts on why dnCx43 suppression of astrocyte network activity is less effective at inducing fear generalization than CalEx suppression of astrocyte Ca2+ are warranted. One might predict that both manipulations should result in similar effects, as seen in fEPSP and cFos data in Figure 4.

      We agree that this is an interesting observation and the fact we did not observe the same behavioural phenotype despite fEPSP and c-Fos data to be the same is puzzling.

      Nevertheless, we do see increased fear generalisation in both dnCx43 and CalEx. We hypothesise that CalEx had a more profound effect due to the wide range of processes that are presumably affected by reduced astrocyte calcium activity, whereas blocking gap junction channels still leaves a large number of astrocyte functions intact.

      Overall, our conclusion is that behaviour is a more sensitive assay compared to the cellular phenotypes, which highlights the importance of answering these questions from multiple angles.

      (9) Ideally changes in functional coupling following the dnCx43 manipulation) should be shown here (line 169).

      We, unfortunately, did not directly evaluate functional coupling in dnCx43 mice in this manuscript. This would have been a useful experiment, but we rely on our previous data where we extensively characterised this tool (Murphy-Royal et al. 2020 Nat Comms).

      (10) It would be relevant to perform c-Fos staining with markers for astrocytes or neuronal cells. Is an increase in activity expected for both cell types?

      This is a fascinating question, given recent work on this topic showing that astrocytes can indeed express c-Fos and may be recruited into engrams. We analysed our existing tissue, we found that indeed astrocytes were labelled with c-Fos following our behavioural conditioning paradigm. Our data align with recent reports, and we demonstrate a small percentage of astrocytes expressing c-Fos (Figure 2 - figure supplement 3). This modest number of astrocytes expressing c-Fos is discussed in the text and placed into context of very recent papers that have been published since our submission to eLife.

      (11) Were the same mice subjected to behavior analysis than immunostaining?

      We generated separate cohorts of mice for immunostaining and behaviour, and have made this more clear in the text.

      (12) Language describing learning paradigm. The CS+ (line 73) isn't in itself aversive (and shouldn't be described as such). It acquires that value after pairing with the US (which is aversive).

      We agree that this is poorly worded and have modified the text from “aversive cue” to “conditioned cue”.

      (13) It is hard to appreciate the glucocorticoid receptor translocation with the images provided. Would it be possible to increase magnification or at least, provide small inserts at higher magnification?

      We have re-imaged our brain sections to get more detailed images. These are provided in revised manuscript (Figure 3)

      (14) For the viral injection experiment, for how long is the virus expressed before running behavior/recording/c-Fos staining? Is the age of the tested mice the same as Figures1-3 or they were injected at P45 and tested weeks later?

      We age-matched all mice for all experiments and tried to keep our experimental window as tight as possible (p45-70). All mice were injected at P25-30 in order to meet the experimental time window. To be more precise we have added timelines on all figures.

      (15) A validation of the virus is missing to confirm the reduction of Cx43 expression at mRNA and protein levels when compared to controls. A reference is provided but to my understanding age of the animals might be different.

      Here, I believe the reviewer is referring to dnCx43. In this experiment we used a viral approach to overexpress a non-functional connexin 43 protein (Murphy-Royal et al. 2020 Nat Comms). As such, a PCR or immuno against this protein would be expected to reveal higher expression levels. We have tried to clarify this approach in the text.

      It is true that we did not fully characterise this tool in the lateral amygdala which would have been useful but considering our extensive experience with this tool and in it’s development with our collaborators Baljit Khakh, Randy Stout, David Spray (see Murphy-Royal et al. 2020) we are confident in these data, despite the limitation of validation in this manuscript.

      (16) Same comment for the CalEx, a validation would be appreciated. Based on Yu et al. could a GCaMP6f virus be more appropriate as control?

      We agree this is an important experiment as our lab has not fully validated this tool in house (compared to dnCx43, which we previously validated).

      Importantly, we now have the capacity to do these experiments. Until very recently our two-photon microscope was not fully functional due to dodgy PMTs sent from the company we purchased our equipment from… Troubleshooting this issue took many months before we were convinced that we were not at fault and that the problem was the equipment.

      As such, mice were injected with both a membrane tethered GCaMP6f under the control of the short GFAP promoter - AAV2/5-gfaABC1D-lck-GCaMP6f and CalEx - AAV2/5-gfaABC1D-hPMCA2w/b-mCherry. Using this approach we were able to record calcium activity from CalEx positive and CalEx negative astrocytes in the same tissue (Figure 5 - figure supplement 2).

      We report that this approach does indeed reduce astrocyte calcium but does not entirely eliminate it. In fact, CalEx expressing astrocytes displayed similar calcium activity dynamics to that we observed following ELS. Together, this further strengthens our rationale to use CalEx in order to mimic the effects of stress on astrocytes, and determine downstream effects on excitability, synapses, and behaviour.

      (17) Have previous studies found ELS--> generalization phenotypes in adulthood? If so, these should be discussed in more detail. If not, perhaps this point can be made more explicit.

      This is a great point. After looking deeper into the literature in more depth we found an example of this in which ELS resulted in context fear generalisation in adult rats. This work is cited in the discussion in the context of our findings.

      (18) A paper by Krugers et al (Biol Psychiatry 2020) seems especially relevant (glucocorticoids, fear generalization, engram size) and should be discussed.

      Thank you for bringing this work to our attention. This is certainly important work that we had unfortunately overlooked. We have added a citation and discussed the manuscript Lesuis et al. Biol. Psychiatry 2021, which contains the data discussed in the conference proceeding by Krugers et al. Biol. Psychiatry 2020.

      Additionally, we added another great manuscript by Lesuis et al. recently published in Cell in which they investigated the cellular mechanisms by which acute stress results in fear generalisation via endocannabinoids.

      (19) Minor text revisions are necessary at lines 101 and 264 as well as p.5, line 58: "ratio" and p.10, line 128: "region of interest".

      Thank you for pointing out these typos and errors. We have corrected them.

      Editor's note:

      Should you choose to revise your manuscript, please include full statistical reporting including exact p-values wherever possible alongside the summary statistics (test statistic and df) and 95% confidence intervals. These should be reported for all key questions and not only when the p-value is less than 0.05 in the main manuscript.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife Assessment

      The modeling and experimental work described provide solid evidence that this model is capable of qualitatively predicting alterations to the swing and stance phase durations during locomotion at different speeds on intact or split-belt treadmills, but a revision of the figures to overlay the model predictions with the experimental data would facilitate the assessment of this qualitative agreement. This paper will interest neuroscientists studying vertebrate motor systems, including researchers investigating motor dysfunction after spinal cord injury.

      Figures showing the overlay of the experimental data with the modeling predictions have been included as figure supplements for Figures 5-7. This highlights how accurate the model predictions were.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      We thank the reviewer for the positive evaluation of our paper and emphasizing its strengths in the Summary.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Could the authors provide a statement in the methods or results to clarify whether there were any changes in synaptic weight or other model parameters of the intact model to ensure locomotor activity in the hemisected model?

      Such a statement has been inserted in Materials and Methods, section “Modeling”. Also, in the 1st paragraph of section “Spinal sensorimotor network architecture and operation after a lateral spinal hemisection”, we stated that no “additional changes or adjustments” were made.

      (2) The authors should remind the reader what the main differences are between state-machine, flexor-driven, and classical half-center regimes (lines 77-79).

      Short explanations/reminders have been inserted (see lines 80-83 of tracked changes document).

      (3) There may be changes in the wiring of spinal locomotor networks after the hemisection. Yet, without applying any sort of plasticity, the model is able to replicate many of the experimental data. Based on what was experimentally replicated or not, what does the model tell us about possible sites of plasticity after hemisection?

      Quantitative correspondence of changes in locomotor characteristics predicted by the model and those obtained experimentally provide additional validation of the model proposed in the preceding paper and used in this paper. This was our ultimate goal. None of the plastic changes during recovery were modeled because of a lack of precise information on these changes. The absence of possible plastic changes may explain the small discrepancies between our simulations and experimental data (see Supplemental Figures that have been added). However, the model only has a simplified description of spinal circuits without motoneurons and without real simulation of leg biomechanics. This limits our analysis or predictions of possible plastic changes within a reasonable degree of speculation. This issue is discussed in section: “Limitations and future directions” in the Discussion. We have also inserted a sentence: “The lack of possible plastic changes in spinal sensorimotor circuits of our model may explain the absence of exact/quantitative correspondences between simulated and experimental data.

      (4) Why are the durations on the right hemisected (fast) side similar to results in the full spinal transected model (Rybak et al. 2024)? Is it because the left is in slow mode and so there is not much drive from the left side to the right side even though the latter is still receiving supraspinal drive, as opposed to in the full transection model? (lines 202-203).

      This is correct. We have included this explanation in the text (lines 210-211 of tracked changes document).

      (5) There is an error with probability (line 280).

      This typo was corrected.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      This is a nice article that presents interesting findings. One main concern is that I don't think the predictions from the simulation are overlaid on the animal data at any point - I understand the match is qualitative, which is fine, but even that is hard to judge without at least one figure overlaying some of the data.

      We thank the Reviewer for the constructive comments. Figures showing the overlay of the experimental data with the modeling predictions have been included as figure supplements for Figures 5-7. This highlights how accurate the model predictions were.

      Second is that it's not clear how the lateral coupling strengths of the model were trained/set, so it's hard to judge how important this hemi-split-belt paradigm is. The model's predictions match the data qualitatively, which is good; but does the comparison using the hemi-split-belt paradigm not offer any corrections to the model? The discussion points to modeling plasticity after SCI, which could be good, but does that mean the fit here is so good there's no point using the data to refine?

      The model has not been trained or retrained, but was used as it was described in the preceding paper. Response: Quantitative correspondence of changes in locomotor characteristics predicted by the model and those obtained experimentally provide additional validation of the model proposed in the preceding paper and used in this paper. This was our ultimate goal. None of the plastic changes during recovery were modeled because of a lack of precise information on these changes. The absence of possible plastic changes may explain the small discrepancies between our simulations and experimental data (see figure supplements that have been added). However, the model only has a simplified description of spinal circuits without motoneurons and without real simulation of leg biomechanics. This limits our analysis or predictions of possible plastic changes within a reasonable degree of speculation. This issue is discussed in section: “Limitations and future directions” in the Discussion.

      The manuscript is well-written and interesting. The putative neural circuit mechanisms that the model uncovers are great, if they can be tested in an animal somehow.

      We agree and we are considering how we can do this in an animal model.

      Page 2, lines 75-6: Perhaps it belongs in the other paper on the model, but it's surprising that in the section on how the model has been revised to have different regimes of operation as speed increases, there is no reference to a lot of past literature on this idea. Just one example would be Koditschek and Full, 1999 JEB Figure 3, where they talk about exactly this idea, or similarly Holmes et al., 2006 SIAM review Figure 7, but obviously many more have put this forward over the years (Daley and Beiwener, etc). It's neat in this model to have it tied down to a detailed neural model that can be compared with the vast cat literature, but the concept of this has been talked about for at least 25+ years. Maybe a review that discusses it should be cited?

      We have revised the Introduction to include the suggested references.

      Page 2, line 88: While it makes sense to think of the sides as supraspinal vs afferent driven, respectively, what is the added insight from having them coupled laterally in this hemisection model? What does that buy you beyond complete transection (both sides no supra) compared with intact?

      We are trying to make one model that could reproduce multiple experimental data in quadrupedal locomotion, including genetic manipulations with (silencing/removal) particular neuron types (and commissural interneurons), as pointed out in the section “Model Description” in the Results. These lateral connections are critical for reproducing and explaining other locomotor behaviors demonstrated experimentally. However, even in this study, these lateral interactions are necessary to maintain left-right coordination and equal left-right frequency (step period) during split-belt locomotion and after hemisection.

      I can see how being able to vary cycle frequencies separately of the two limbs is a good "knob" to vary when perturbing the system in order to refine the model. But there isn't a ton of context explaining how the hemi-section with split belt paradigm is important for refining the model, and therefore the science. Is it somehow importantly related to the new "regimes" of operation versus speed idea for the model?  

      We did not refine the model in this paper. We just used it for new simulations. The predictions strengthen the organization and operation of the model we recently proposed.

      Page 5, line 212: For the predictions from the model, a lot depends on how strong the lateral coupling of the model is, which, in turn, depends on the data the model was trained on. Were the model parameters (especially for lateral coupling of the limbs) trained on data in a context where limbs were pushed out of phase and neuronal connectivity was likely required to bring the limbs back into the same phase relationship? Because if the model had no need for lateral coupling, then it's not so surprising that the hemisected limbs behave like separate limbs, one with surpaspinal intact and one without.

      Please see our response above concerning the need for lateral interactions incorporated to the model.

      Page 8, line 360: The discussion of the mechanisms (increased influence of afferents, etc) that the model reveals could be causing the changes is exciting, though I'm not sure if there is an animal model where it can be tested in vivo in a moving animal.

      We agree it may be difficult to test right now but we are considering experimental approaches.

      Page 9, line 395: There are some interesting conclusions that rely on the hemi-split-belt paradigm here.

      We agree with this comment. Thanks.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Figures: Why aren't there any figures with the simulation results overlaid on the animal data?

      We followed this suggestion. Figures showing the overlay of the experimental data with the modeling predictions have been included as figure supplements.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      A nice study trying to identify the relationship between E. coli O157 from cattle and humans in Alberta, Canada.

      Strengths:

      (1) The combined human and animal sampling is a great foundation for this kind of study.

      (2) Phylogenetic analyses seem to have been carried out in a high-quality fashion.

      Weaknesses:

      I think there may be a problem with the selection of the isolates for the primary analysis. This is what I'm thinking:

      (1) Transmission analyses are strongly influenced by the sampling frame.

      (2) While the authors have randomly selected from their isolate collections, which is fine, the collections themselves are not random.

      (3) The animal isolates are likely to represent a broad swathe of diversity, because of the structured sampling of animal reservoirs undertaken (as I understand it).

      (4) The human isolates are all from clinical cases. Clinical cases of the disease are likely to be closely related to other clinical cases, because of outbreaks (either detected, or undetected), and the high ascertainment rate for serious infections.

      (5) Therefore, taking an equivalent number of animal and clinical isolates, will underestimate the total diversity in the clinical isolates because the sampling of the clinical isolates is less "independent" (in the statistical sense) than sampling from the animal isolates.

      (6) This could lead to over-estimating of transmission from cattle to humans.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s careful thoughts about our sampling strategy. We agree with points (1) and (2), and we have provided additional details on the animal collections as requested (lines 95-101).

      We agree with point (3) in theory but not in fact. As shown in Figure 3, the cattle isolates were very closely related, despite the temporal and geographic breadth of sampling within Alberta. The median SNP distance between cattle sequences was 45 (IQR 36-56), compared to 54 (IQR 43-229) SNPs between human sequences from cases in Alberta during the same years. Additionally, as shown in Figure 2, only clade A and B isolates – clades that diverge substantially from the rest of the tree – were dominated by human cases in Alberta. We have better highlight this evidence in the revision (lines 234-236 and 247-249).

      We agree with the reviewer in point (4) that outbreaks can be an important confounder of phylogenetic inference. This is why we down-sampled outbreaks (based on genetic relatedness, not external designation) in our extended analyses. We did not do this in the primary analysis, because there were no large clusters of identical isolates. Figure 3b shows a limited number of small clusters; however, clustered cattle isolates outnumbered clustered human isolates, suggesting that any bias would be in the opposite direction the reviewer suggests. In the revision, we down-sampled all analyses and, indeed, the proportion of human lineages descending from cattle lineages increased (lines 259-261). Regarding severe cases being oversampled among the clinical isolates, this is absolutely true and a limitation of all studies utilizing public health reporting data. We made this limitation to generalizability clearer in the discussion. However, as noted above, clinical isolates were more variable than cattle isolates, so it does not appear to have heavily biased the analysis (lines 490-495).

      We disagree with the reviewer on point (5). While the bias toward severe cases could make the human isolates less independent, the relative sampling proportions are likely to induce greater distance between clinical isolates than cattle isolates, which is exactly what we observe (see response to point (3) above). Cattle are E. coli O157:H7’s primary reservoir, and humans are incidental hosts not able to sustain infection chains long-term. Not only is the bacteria prevalent among cattle, cattle are also highly prevalent in Alberta. Thus, even with 89 sampling points, we are still capturing a small proportion of the E. coli O157:H7 in the province. Being able to sample only a small proportion of cattle’s E. coli O157:H7 increases the likelihood of only sampling from the center of the distribution, making extreme cases such as that shown at the very bottom of the tree in Figure 4, rare and important. In comparison, sampling from human cases constitutes a higher proportion of human infections relative to cattle, and is therefore more representative of the underlying distribution, including extremes. We added this point to the limitations (lines 495-504). As with the clustering above, if anything, this outcome would have biased the study away from identifying cattle as the primary reservoir. Additionally, the relatively small proportion of cattle sampled makes our finding that 15.7% of clinical isolates were within 5 SNPs of a cattle isolate, the distance most commonly used to indicate transmission for E. coli O157:H7, all the more remarkable.

      Because of the aforementioned points, we disagree with the reviewer’s conclusion in point (6). If a bias exists, we believe transmission from cattle-to-humans is likely underestimated for the reasons given above. Not only do all prior studies indicate ruminants as the primary reservoirs of E. coli O157:H7, and humans as only incidental hosts, our specific data do not support the reviewer’s individual contentions. The results of the sensitivity analysis the reviewer recommended is consistent with the points we outlined above, estimating that 94.3% of human lineages arose from cattle lineages (vs. 88.5% in the primary analysis). We have opted to retain the more conservative estimate of the primary analysis, which includes a more representative number of clinical cases.

      (7) We hypothesize that the large proportion of disease associated with local transmission systems is a principal cause of Alberta's high E. coli O157:H7 incidence" - this seems a bit tautological. There is a lot of O157 because there's a lot of transmission. What part of the fact it is local means that it is a principal cause of high incidence? It seems that they've observed a high rate of local transmission, but the reasons for this are not apparent, and hence the cause of Alberta's incidence is not apparent. Would a better conclusion not be that "X% of STEC in Alberta is the result of transmission of local variants"? And then, this poses a question for future epi studies of what the transmission pathway is.

      The reviewer is correct, and the suggestion for the direction of future studies was our intent with this statement. We have removed this sentence.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) To address my concerns about the different sampling frames in humans and animals, I would suggest a sensitivity analysis, using something like the following strategy. Make a phylogeny of all the available genome sequences from humans and cattle from Alberta. Phylogenetically sub-sample the tree, using something like Treemer (https://github.com/fmenardo/Treemmer), to remove phylogenetically redundant isolates from the same host type. Randomly select 100 human and 100 animal isolates from this non-redundant tree, and re-do your analysis.

      Although we originally down-sampled outbreaks for our analysis of the extended Alberta tree (2007-2019), we had not done this systematically for all analyses. We were not able to use the recommended Treemer tool, because we did not see a way to incorporate the timing of sequences. Because the objective of our study was to evaluate persistence, we did not want to exclude identical sequences that were separated in time and thus could be indicating persistence. To accomplish this, we developed a utility that allowed us to incorporate the temporality of sequences. Using this utility, we systematically down-sampled all sequences that met the following conditions: 1) within 0-2 SNPs of another sequence and 2) no gaps in sequence set >2 months. The second condition means that for any set of sequences within 0-2 SNPs of one another, there can be no more than 2 months without a sequence from the set. Similar sequences that occur beyond this 2-month-cutoff would be considered a separate set for down-sampling. This cutoff was chosen based on the epidemiology of E. coli O157 outbreaks, which are generally either point-source or continuous-source outbreaks. Intermittent outbreaks of a single strain are believed to arise from distinct contamination events and are exactly the type of phenomena we are seeking to identify. We have added details on down-sampling to the Methods (lines 178-180).

      After down-sampling, our primary analysis included 115 human and 84 cattle isolates. T conduct the recommended sensitivity analysis, we further randomly subsampled the human isolates, selecting 84 to match the number of cattle isolates. As we suggested in our initial response, and contrary to the reviewer’s concern, subsampling in this way accentuated the results, with 94.3% of human lineages inferred as arising from cattle lineages, compared to 88.5% in the primary analysis. This sensitivity analysis also identified 10 of the 11 LPLs identified in the primary analysis. The LPL not identified had 5 isolates in the primary analysis, the minimum for definition as an LPL, and was reduced to 4 isolates through subsampling. This sensitivity analysis is shown in Suppl. Figure S3.

      (2) This is the first time I've seen target diagrams used for SNP distances, I'm not sure of their value compared with histograms. They seem to emphasise the maximum distance, rather than the largest number of isolates. I.e. most isolates are closely related, but the diagram emphasises the small number of divergent ones.

      In using the target diagrams, we sought to emphasize the bimodal distribution of human-to-closest-cattle SNP differences. However, this is still mostly visible in a histogram, so we have replaced the target diagrams with a histogram as suggested (Figure 3).

      (3) L130 - fastqc doesn't trim adapters and read ends, there will be something else like trimmomatic which does.

      The reviewer is correct, and we appreciate them catching this error. Trimmomatic is incorporated into the Shovill pipeline, which was the assembler we used through the Bactopia pipeline. We have updated the Methods to indicate this (lines 142-144).

      (4) I find the flow of the article a bit confusing. You have your primary analysis, but Figure 2, which is a secondary analysis, comes before Figure 3. Which is the primary analysis? For me, primary analysis results should come first, or at least signpost a bit better.

      Figure 2 is not a secondary analysis. It is intended to provide an overview of the isolates used from the phylogenetic perspective, just as the diagram in Figure 1 provides an overview of the isolates by analysis. The secondary analyses are shown in Figures 5-7. We have added a sub-header, “Description of Isolates”, to the section referring to Figure 2, to clarify (line 232).

      (5) Locally persistent lineage definition. What is the rationale for the different criteria signifying locally persistent lineages? There is nothing in some of your criteria e.g. all isolates <30 SNPs from each other, which indicates that it is locally persistent - could have been transmitted to Japan (just to pick a place at random), causing a bunch of cases there, and then come back for all we know. Would that be a locally persistent lineage? Did you use the MCC tree here? That is a sub-sample of your full dataset, I am not sure what exactly you're trying to say with the LPLs, but maybe using a larger dataset would be better? Also, there are lots of STEC genomes available from e.g. UK and USA, by only including a fraction of these, you limit the strength of the inferences you can make about locally persistent lineages unless you know that they don't see the G sub-lineage that you observe.

      The reviewer raises multiple points here. First, regarding our definition of LPLs, it is intended to identify those lineages that pose a threat to populations in the specific geographic area (“local”) for at least 1 year (“persistent”) that are likely to be harbored in local reservoirs. Each of the criteria contributes to this definition.

      (1) A single lineage of the MCC tree with a most recent common ancestor (MRCA) with ≥95% posterior probability: This criterion provides confidence in the given isolates being part of a single, defined lineage. The posterior probability gives the probability that the topology of the tree is accurate, based on the data provided and the chosen model of evolution. In other words, we required at least 95% probability that the lineage was correct, and in practice the posterior probability of the lineages we defined as LPLs was 99.7-100% (we have added this detail to the text, lines 269-270). We also added a sensitivity analysis, shown in Suppl. Figure S4, which shows all sampled trees. We find that the essential structure of the tree around the LPLs we defined is well-supported.

      (2) All isolates ≤30 core SNPs from one another: This criterion limited LPLs to those lineages where the isolates were closely related. We did not want to limit LPLs to those that might define an outbreak, for example using a 5-10 SNP threshold, because the point of the study is to identify lineages that persistently cause disease over longer periods than a normal outbreak. Pathogens evolve over time in their reservoirs, leading to greater SNP distances, and we wanted to allow for this. The U.S. CDC has acknowledged a similar concern for such persistent lineages in its definition of REP strains, which it has defined based on ranges of 13-104 allele differences by cgMLST. Thus, our choice of 30 core SNPs as the threshold is in line with current practice in the emerging science on persistence of enteric pathogens. We have also added a sensitivity analysis examining alternate SNP thresholds, shown in Suppl. Figure S5, which results in clusters of LPLs identified in the primary analysis being grouped into larger lineages. Additionally, in the tree showing our primary analysis (Figure 4), we now note the minimum number of SNPs all isolates within the lineage differ by.

      (3) Contained at least 1 cattle isolate: This criterion increases confidence that the lineage is indeed “local”. Unlike humans, cattle are not known to be routinely infected by imported food products, and they do not make roundtrip journeys to other locations, as humans infected during travel do. Cattle themselves may be imported into Alberta while infected, and cattle in Alberta can be infected by other imported animals. In these cases, if the STEC strains the cattle harbor persist for ≥1 year, they become the type of lineages we are interested in as LPLs, regardless where they previously came from, because they are now potential persistent sources of infection in Alberta. By including at least one cattle isolate in each LPL, the only way an identified LPL is not actually local is if cattle are imported from the lineage’s reservoir community elsewhere (e.g., in Japan, as the reviewer suggested), the lineage is persisting in that non-Alberta reservoir, and newly infected cattle are imported repeatedly over 1 or more years. This could feasibly explain G(vi)-AB LPL 5 (Figure 4), which is entirely composed of cattle. Indeed, such an explanation would be consistent with the lack of new cases from this LPL after 2015 in the extended analysis (Figure 5). However, for all other LPLs, which contain both cattle and human isolates, for the LPL to not be local, both cattle and human cases would have to be imported from the same non-Alberta reservoir. While this is possible, the probability of such a scenario is low, and it decreases the more isolates are in an LPL. For the average LPL, this means 4 human and 6 cattle cases would need to be imported from a non-Alberta reservoir over several years. Given that our study is only a random sample of the total STEC cases and cattle in Alberta from 2007-2015, these numbers are underestimates of the true absolute number of cases and cattle associated with LPLs that would have to be explained by importation if the LPL were not local. We have added some explanation of the possibility of importation in the Discussion where we discuss the LPL criteria (lines 376-380).

      (4) Contained ≥5 isolates: In concert with criterion 3, this criterion guards against anomalies being counted as LPLs. By requiring at least 5 isolates in an LPL after down-sampling, at least 5 infection events must have occurred from the LPL, reducing the likelihood of importation explaining the LPL and emphasizing more significant LPLs.

      (5) The isolates were collected at sampling events (for cattle) or reported (for humans) over a period of at least 1 year: This criterion defines the persistence aspect of the LPL. In the primary analysis, the LPLs we identified persisted for an average of 8 years, with the shortest persisting for 5 years (these details have been added to the text, lines 268-269). Incorporating the extended analysis, several LPLs persisted for the full 13 years of the study.

      Regarding using additional non-Alberta isolates to help rule out importation, we have expanded the number of U.S. and global isolates included in the importation analysis, over-sampling clade G isolates from the U.S. (Figure 7). As cattle trade is substantially more common with the U.S. than other countries, we felt it most important to focus on the U.S. as a potential source of both imported cattle and human cases. Our results from this analysis show that only 9 of 494 (1.8%) U.S. isolates occurred in the LPLs we defined in the primary analysis, and all occurred after Alberta isolates (lines 313-317). Although we also added more global isolates, we still found that none were associated with the Alberta LPLs.

      (6) Given the importance of sampling for a study like this, some more information on animal sampling studies should be included here.

      We have added details on the cattle sampling to the Methods (lines 95-101).

      (7) L172 - do you mean an MRCA with >- 95% probability of location in Alberta?

      Location in Alberta was not determined from the primary analysis, which defined the LPLs, as only Alberta isolates were included in that analysis. As described above, this criterion meant that we required at least 95% probability that the tree topology at the lineage’s MRCA was correct, and in practice the posterior probability of the lineages we defined as LPLs was 99.7-100%.

      (8) Need a supplementary figure of just clade G from Figure 2.

      We have added a sub-tree diagram of clade G(vi) as Figure 2b.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      This study identified multiple locally evolving lineages transmitted between cattle and humans persistently associated with E. coli O157:H7 illnesses for up to 13 years. Furthermore, this study mentions a dramatic shift in the local persistent lineages toward strains with the more virulent stx2a-only profile. The authors hypothesized that this phenomenon is the large proportion of disease associated with local transmission systems is a principal cause of Alberta's high E. coli O157:H7 incidence. These opinions more effectively explain the role of the cattle reservoir in the dynamics of E. coli O157:H7 human infections.

      (1) The authors acknowledge the possibility of intermediate hosts or environmental reservoirs playing a role in transmission. Further discussion on the potential roles of other animal species commonly found in Alberta (e.g., sheep, goats, swine) could enhance the understanding of the transmission dynamics. Were isolates from these species available for analysis? If not, the authors should clearly state this limitation.”

      We have expanded the discussion of other species in Alberta, as suggested, including other livestock, wildlife, and the potential role of birds and flies (lines 353-360). Unfortunately, we did not have sequences available from other species, which we have added to the limitations (lines 487-490).

      (2) The focus on E. coli O157:H7 is understandable given its prominence in Alberta and the availability of historical data. However, a brief discussion on the potential applicability of the findings to non-O157 STEC serogroups, and the limitations therein, would be beneficial. Are there reasons to believe the transmission dynamics would be similar or different for other serogroups?

      We appreciate this comment and have expanded our discussion of relevance to non-O157 STEC (lines 452-460). Other authors have proposed that transmission dynamics differ, and studies of STEC risk factors, including our own, support this. However, there has been very little direct study of non-O157 transmission dynamics and there is even less cross-species genomic and metadata available for non-O157 isolates of concern.

      (3) The authors briefly mention the need for elucidating local transmission systems to inform management strategies. A more detailed discussion on specific public health interventions that could be targeted at the identified LPLs and their potential reservoirs would strengthen the paper's impact.

      We agree with the reviewer that this would be a good addition to the manuscript. The public health implications for control are several and extend to non-STEC reportable zoonotic enteric infections, such as Campylobacter and Salmonella. We have added a discussion of these (lines 460-465, 467-485).

      (4) Understanding the relationship between specific risk factors and E. coli O157:H7 infections is essential for developing effective prevention strategies. Have case-control or cohort studies been conducted to assess the correlation between identified risk factors and the incidence of E. coli O157:H7 infections? What methodologies were employed to control for potential confounders in these studies?

      Yes, there have been several case-control studies of reported cases. Many of these are referenced in the discussion in terms of the contribution of different sources to infection. As risk factors were not the focus of the current study, we believe a thorough discussion of the literature on the aspects of these various studies is beyond our scope. However, we have added some details on the risk factors themselves (lines 72-79).

      (5) The study's findings are noteworthy, particularly in the context of E. coli O157:H7 epidemiology. However, the extent to which these results can be replicated across different temporal and geographical settings remains an open question. It would be constructive for the authors to provide additional data that demonstrate the replication of their sampling and sequencing experiments under varied conditions. This would address concerns regarding the specificity of the observed patterns to the initial study's parameters.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment, as we are currently building on this analysis with an American dataset with different types of data available than were used in this study. Aligned with this work, we have added a comment on the adaptation of our method to other settings with different types of data (lines 448-450). We also added a sensitivity analysis to the manuscript simulating a different sampling approach (Suppl. Fig. S3), which should be informative to this question.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Minor comments.

      (1) Figure 1: The figure is a critical visual representation of the study's findings and should be given prominent emphasis. It is essential that the key discoveries of the research are clearly depicted and explained in this visual format. The authors should ensure that Figure 1 is detailed and informative enough to stand out as a central piece of the study.

      Figure 1 is the diagram of sample numbers, locations, and corresponding analyses. We assume that the reviewer means to refer to Figure 2. Although the inclusion of >1,200 isolates makes the tree difficult to see in detail, we have made some modifications to make the findings clearer. First, we changed the clade coloration such that the only subclade differentiated is G(vi). We have removed the stx metadata ring to focus attention on the location and species of the isolates, as stx data are described in Table 1. Finally, we have added a sub-tree diagram of clade G(vi), colored by location. This makes clear the large sections of the subclade dominated by isolates from one location or another, and the limited areas where they overlap.

      (2) Figures 2 and 4: While these figures contribute to the presentation of the data, they appear to be somewhat rudimentary in their current form. The lack of detailed annotations regarding the clustering of different strains is a notable omission. I recommend that the authors refine these figures to include comprehensive labeling that clearly delineates the various bacterial clusters. Enhanced graphical representation with clear annotations will aid readers in better understanding the study's findings.

      We appreciate this suggestion. We have remade all trees generated by the BEAST 2 analyses in R, rather than FigTree. This has allowed us to annotate the trees with additional information on the LPLs and we believe provides a clearer picture of each LPL.

      (3) Supplemental Table S1: The supplemental tables are an excellent opportunity to showcase additional data and findings that support the study's conclusions. For Supplemental Table S1, it is recommended that the authors highlight the innovative aspects or novel discoveries presented in this table.

      Suppl. Table S1 shows the modeling specifications and priors used in the analyses. These decisions were not in and of themselves novel. The innovation in our methods is due to the development of the LPLs based on the trees resulting from the analyses detailed in Suppl. Table S1, as well as from the application of these models to E. coli O157:H7 for the first time. However, we understand the reviewers point and have emphasized the importance of the results shown in Suppl. Table S2 (lines 391-395).

      (4) Line 35: "We assessed the role of persistent cross-species transmission systems in Alberta's E. coli O157:H7 epidemiology." change to "We assessed the impact of persistent cross-species transmission systems on the epidemiology of E. coli O157:H7 in Alberta."

      We have made this change.

      (5) To facilitate a deeper understanding of the core findings of the manuscript and to enable the development of effective response strategies, I suggest that the authors provide more information regarding the sequencing data used in the study. This information should at least include aspects such as data accessibility and quality control measures.

      We have included a Supplemental Data File that lists all isolates used in the analysis, and the QC measures are detailed in the Methods.

    1. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The paper studies learning rules in a simple sigmoidal recurrent neural network setting. The recurrent network has a single layer of 10 to 40 units. It is first confirmed that feedback alignment (FA) can learn a value function in this setting. Then so-called bio-plausible constraints are added: (1) when value weights (readout) is non-negative, (2) when the activity is non-negative (normal sigmoid rather than downscaled between -0.5 and 0.5), (3) when the feedback weights are non-negative, (4) when the learning rule is revised to be monotic: the weights are not downregulated. In the simple task considered all four biological features do not appear to impair totally the learning.

      Strengths:

      (1) The learning rules are implemented in a low-level fashion of the form: (pre-synaptic-activity) x (post-synaptic-activity) x feedback x RPE. Which is therefore interpretable in terms of measurable quantities in the wet-lab.

      (2) I find that non-negative FA (FA with non negative c and w) is the most valuable theoretical insight of this paper: I understand why the alignment between w and c is automatically better at initialization.

      (3) The task choice is relevant since it connects with experimental settings of reward conditioning with possible plasticity measurements.

      Weaknesses:

      (4) The task is rather easy, so it's not clear that it really captures the computational gap that exists with FA (gradient-like learning) and simpler learning rule like a delta rule: RPE x (pre-synpatic) x (post-synaptic). To control if the task is not too trivial, I suggest adding a control where the vector c is constant c_i=1.

      (5) Related to point 3), the main strength of this paper is to draw potential connection with experimental data. It would be good to highlight more concretely the prediction of the theory for experimental findings. (Ideally, what should be observed with non-negative FA that is not expected with FA or a delta rule (constant global feedback) ?).

      (6a) Random feedback with RNN in RL have been studied in the past, so it is maybe worth giving some insights how the results and the analyzes compare to this previous line of work (for instance in this paper [1]). For instance, I am not very surprised that FA also works for value prediction with TD error. It is also expected from the literature that the RL + RNN + FA setting would scale to tasks that are more complex than the conditioning problem proposed here, so is there a more specific take-home message about non-negative FA? or benefits from this simpler toy task?<br /> (6b) Related to task complexity, it is not clear to me if non-negative value and feedback weights would generally scale to harder tasks. If the task in so simple that a global RPE signal is sufficient to learn (see 4 and 5), then it could be good to extend the task to find a substantial gap between: global RPE, non-negative FA, FA, BP. For a well chosen task, I expect to see a performance gap between any pair of these four learning rules. In the context of the present paper, this would be particularly interesting to study the failure mode of non-negative FA and the cases where it does perform as well as FA.

      (7) I find that the writing could be improved, it mostly feels more technical and difficult than it should. Here are some recommendations:<br /> (7a) for instance the technical description of the task (CSC) is not fully described and requires background knowledge from other paper which is not desirable.<br /> (7b) Also the rationale for the added difficulty with the stochastic reward and new state is not well explained.<br /> (7c) In the technical description of the results I find that the text dives into descriptive comments of the figures but high-level take home messages would be helpful to guide the reader. I got a bit lost, although I feel that there is probably a lot of depth in these paragraphs.

      (8) Related to the writing issue and 5), I wished that "bio-plausibility" was not the only reason to study positive feedback and value weights. Is it possible to develop a bit more specifically what and why this positivity is interesting? Is there an expected finding with non-negative FA both in the model capability? or maybe there is a simpler and crisp take-home message to communicate the experimental predictions to the community would be useful?

      (1) https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-17236-y

    2. Author response:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Can a plastic RNN serve as a basis function for learning to estimate value. In previous work this was shown to be the case, with a similar architecture to that proposed here. The learning rule in previous work was back-prop with an objective function that was the TD error function (delta) squared. Such a learning rule is non-local as the changes in weights within the RNN, and from inputs to the RNN depends on the weights from the RNN to the output, which estimates value. This is non-local, and in addition, these weights themselves change over learning. The main idea in this paper is to examine if replacing the values of these non-local changing weights, used for credit assignment, with random fixed weights can still produce similar results to those obtained with complete bp. This random feedback approach is motivated by a similar approach used for deep feed-forward neural networks.

      This work shows that this random feedback in credit assignment performs well but is not as well as the precise gradient-based approach. When more constraints due to biological plausibility are imposed performance degrades. These results are not surprising given previous results on random feedback. This work is incomplete because the delay times used were only a few time steps, and it is not clear how well random feedback would operate with longer delays. Additionally, the examples simulated with a single cue and a single reward are overly simplistic and the field should move beyond these exceptionally simple examples.

      Strengths:

      • The authors show that random feedback can approximate well a model trained with detailed credit assignment.

      • The authors simulate several experiments including some with probabilistic reward schedules and show results similar to those obtained with detailed credit assignments as well as in experiments.

      • The paper examines the impact of more biologically realistic learning rules and the results are still quite similar to the detailed back-prop model.

      Weaknesses:

      • The authors also show that an untrained RNN does not perform as well as the trained RNN. However, they never explain what they mean by an untrained RNN. It should be clearly explained. These results are actually surprising. An untrained RNN with enough units and sufficiently large variance of recurrent weights can have a high-dimensionality and generate a complete or nearly complete basis, though not orthonormal (e.g: Rajan&Abbott 2006). It should be possible to use such a basis to learn this simple classical conditioning paradigm. It would be useful to measure the dimensionality of network dynamics, in both trained and untrained RNN's.

      Thank you for pointing out the lack of explanation about untrained RNN. Untrained RNN in our simulations (except Fig. 6D/6E-gray-dotted) was randomly initialized RNN (i.e., connection weights were drawn from a pseudo normal distribution) that was used as initial RNN for training of value-RNNs. As you suggested, the performance of untrained RNN indeed improved as the number of units increased (Fig. 2J), and its highest part was almost comparable to the highest performance of trained value-RNNs (Fig. 2I). In the revision we will show the dimensionality of network dynamics (as you have suggested), and eigenvalue spectrum of the network.

      • The impact of the article is limited by using a network with discrete time-steps, and only a small number of time steps from stimulus to reward. What is the length of each time step? If it's on the order of the membrane time constant, then a few time steps are only tens of ms. In the classical conditioning experiments typical delays are of the order to hundreds of milliseconds to seconds. Authors should test if random feedback weights work as well for larger time spans. This can be done by simply using a much larger number of time steps.

      Thank you for pointing out this important issue, for which our explanation was lacking and our examination was insufficient. We do not consider that single time step in our models corresponds to the neuronal membrane time constant. Rather, for the following reasons, we assume that the time step corresponds to several hundreds of milliseconds:

      - We assume that single RNN unit corresponds to a small neuron population that intrinsically (for genetic/developmental reasons) share inputs/outputs and are mutually connected via excitatory collaterals.

      - Cortical activity is suggested to be sustained not only by fast synaptic transmission and spiking but also, even predominantly, by slower synaptic neurochemical dynamics (Mongillo et al., 2008, Science "Synaptic Theory of Working Memory" https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.1150769).

      - In line with such theoretical suggestion, previous research examining excitatory interactions between pyramidal cells, to which one of us (the corresponding author Morita) contributed by conducting model fitting (Morishima, Morita, Kubota, Kawaguchi, 2011, J Neurosci, https://www.jneurosci.org/content/31/28/10380), showed that mean recovery time constant from facilitation for recurrent excitation among one of the two types of cortico-striatal pyramidal cells was around 500 milliseconds.

      If single time step corresponds to 500 milliseconds, three time steps from cue to reward in our simulations correspond to 1.5 sec, which matches the delay in the conditioning task used in Schultz et al. 1997 Science. Nevertheless, as you pointed out, it is necessary to examine whether our random feedback models can work for longer delays, and we will examine it in our revision.

      • In the section with more biologically constrained learning rules, while the output weights are restricted to only be positive (as well as the random feedback weights), the recurrent weights and weights from input to RNN are still bi-polar and can change signs during learning. Why is the constraint imposed only on the output weights? It seems reasonable that the whole setup will fail if the recurrent weights were only positive as in such a case most neurons will have very similar dynamics, and the network dimensionality would be very low. However, it is possible that only negative weights might work. It is unclear to me how to justify that bipolar weights that change sign are appropriate for the recurrent connections and inappropriate for the output connections. On the other hand, an RNN with excitatory and inhibitory neurons in which weight signs do not change could possibly work.

      Our explanation and examination about this issue were insufficient, and thank you for pointing it out and giving us helpful suggestion. In the Discussion (Line 507-510) of the original manuscript, we described "Regarding the connectivity, in our models, recurrent/feed-forward connections could take both positive and negative values. This could be justified because there are both excitatory and inhibitory connections in the cortex and the net connection sign between two units can be positive or negative depending on whether excitation or inhibition exceeds the other." However, we admit that the meaning of this description was not clear, and more explicit modeling will be necessary as you suggested.

      Therefore in our revision, we will examine models, in which inhibitory units (modeling fast-spiking (FS) GABAergic cells) will be incorporated, and neuron will follow Dale’s law.

      • Like most papers in the field this work assumes a world composed of a single cue. In the real world there many more cues than rewards, some cues are not associated with any rewards, and some are associated with other rewards or even punishments. In the simplest case, it would be useful to show that this network could actually work if there are additional distractor cues that appear at random either before the CS, or between the CS and US. There are good reasons to believe such distractor cues will be fatal for an untrained RNN, but might work with a trained RNN, either using BPPT or random feedback. Although this assumption is a common flaw in most work in the field, we should no longer ignore these slightly more realistic scenarios.

      Thank you very much for this insightful comment. In our revision, we will examine situations where there exist not only reward-associated cue but also randomly appeared distractor cues.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Tsurumi et al. show that recurrent neural networks can learn state and value representations in simple reinforcement learning tasks when trained with random feedback weights. The traditional method of learning for recurrent network in such tasks (backpropagation through time) requires feedback weights which are a transposed copy of the feed-forward weights, a biologically implausible assumption. This manuscript builds on previous work regarding "random feedback alignment" and "value-RNNs", and extends them to a reinforcement learning context. The authors also demonstrate that certain non-negative constraints can enforce a "loose alignment" of feedback weights. The author's results suggest that random feedback may be a powerful tool of learning in biological networks, even in reinforcement learning tasks.

      Strengths:

      The authors describe well the issues regarding biologically plausible learning in recurrent networks and in reinforcement learning tasks. They take care to propose networks which might be implemented in biological systems and compare their proposed learning rules to those already existing in literature. Further, they use small networks on relatively simple tasks, which allows for easier intuition into the learning dynamics.

      Weaknesses:

      The principles discovered by the authors in these smaller networks are not applied to deeper networks or more complicated tasks, so it remains unclear to what degree these methods can scale up, or can be used more generally.

      In our revision, we will examine more biologically realistic models with excitatory and inhibitory units, as well as more complicated tasks with distractor cues. We will also consider whether/how the depth of networks can be increased, though we do not currently have concrete idea on this last point. Thank you also for giving us the detailed insightful 'recommendations for authors'. We will address also them in our revision.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The paper studies learning rules in a simple sigmoidal recurrent neural network setting. The recurrent network has a single layer of 10 to 40 units. It is first confirmed that feedback alignment (FA) can learn a value function in this setting. Then so-called bio-plausible constraints are added: (1) when value weights (readout) is non-negative, (2) when the activity is non-negative (normal sigmoid rather than downscaled between -0.5 and 0.5), (3) when the feedback weights are non-negative, (4) when the learning rule is revised to be monotic: the weights are not downregulated. In the simple task considered all four biological features do not appear to impair totally the learning.

      Strengths:

      (1) The learning rules are implemented in a low-level fashion of the form: (pre-synaptic-activity) x (post-synaptic-activity) x feedback x RPE. Which is therefore interpretable in terms of measurable quantities in the wet-lab.

      (2) I find that non-negative FA (FA with non negative c and w) is the most valuable theoretical insight of this paper: I understand why the alignment between w and c is automatically better at initialization.

      (3) The task choice is relevant since it connects with experimental settings of reward conditioning with possible plasticity measurements.

      Weaknesses:

      (4) The task is rather easy, so it's not clear that it really captures the computational gap that exists with FA (gradient-like learning) and simpler learning rule like a delta rule: RPE x (pre-synpatic) x (post-synaptic). To control if the task is not too trivial, I suggest adding a control where the vector c is constant c_i=1.

      Thank you for this insightful comment. We have realized that this is actually an issue that would need multilateral considerations. A previous study of one of us (Wärnberg & Kumar, 2023 PNAS) assumed that DA represents a vector error rather than a scalar RPE, and thus homogeneous DA was considered as negative control because it cannot represent vector error other than the direction of (1, 1, .., 1). In contrast, the present work assumed that DA represents a scalar RPE, and then homogeneous DA (i.e., constant feedback) would not be said as a failure mode because it can actually represent a scalar RPE and FA to the direction of (1, 1, .., 1) should in fact occur. And this FA to (1, 1, ..., 1) may actually be interesting because it means that if heterogeneity of DA inputs is not large and the feedback is not far from (1, 1, ..., 1), states are learned to be represented in such a way that simple summation of cortical neuronal activity approximates value, thereby potentially explaining why value is often correlated with regional activation (fMRI BOLD signal) of not only striatal but also cortical regions (which I have been considering as an unresolved mystery). But on the other hand, the case with constant feedback is the same as the simple delta rule, as you pointed out, and then what could be obtained from the present analyses would be that FA is actually occurring behind the successful operation of such a simple rule. Anyway we will make further examinations and considerations on this issue.

      (5) Related to point 3), the main strength of this paper is to draw potential connection with experimental data. It would be good to highlight more concretely the prediction of the theory for experimental findings. (Ideally, what should be observed with non-negative FA that is not expected with FA or a delta rule (constant global feedback) ?).

      In response to this insightful comment, we considered concrete predictions of our models. In the FA model, the feedback vector c and the value-weight vector w are initially at random (on average orthogonal) relationships and become gradually aligned, whereas in the non-negative model, the vectors c and w are loosely aligned from the beginning. We considered how the vectors c and w can be experimentally measured. Each element of the feedback vector c is multiplied with TD-RPE, modulating the degree of update in each pyramidal cell (more accurately, pyramidal cell population that corresponds to single RNN unit). Thus each element of c could be measured as the magnitude of response of each pyramidal cell to DA stimulation. The element of the value-weight vector w corresponding to a given pyramidal cell could be measured, if striatal neuron that receives input from that pyramidal cell can be identified (although technically demanding), as the magnitude of response of the striatal neuron to activation of the pyramidal cell.

      Then, the abovementioned predictions can be tested by (i) identify cortical, striatal, and VTA regions that are connected by meso-cortico-limbic pathway and cortico-striatal-VTA pathway, (ii) identify pairs of cortical pyramidal cells and striatal neurons that are connected, (iii) measure the responses of identified pyramidal cells to DA stimulation, as well as the responses of identified striatal neurons to activation of the connected pyramidal cells, and (iv) test whether the DA->pyramidal responses and the pyramidal->striatal responses are associated across pyramidal cells, and whether such associations develop through learning. We will elaborate this tentative idea, and also other ideas, in our revision.

      (6a) Random feedback with RNN in RL have been studied in the past, so it is maybe worth giving some insights how the results and the analyzes compare to this previous line of work (for instance in this paper [https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-17236-y]). For instance, I am not very surprised that FA also works for value prediction with TD error. It is also expected from the literature that the RL + RNN + FA setting would scale to tasks that are more complex than the conditioning problem proposed here, so is there a more specific take-home message about non-negative FA? or benefits from this simpler toy task?

      In reply to this suggestion, we will explore how our results compare to the previous studies including the paper [https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-17236-y], and explore benefits of our models. At preset, we think of one possible direction. According to our results (Fig. 6E), under the non-negativity constraint, the model with random feedback and monotonic plasticity rule (bioVRNNrf) performed better, on average, than the model with backprop and non-monotonic plasticity rule (revVRNNbp) when the number of units was large, though the difference in the performance was not drastic. We will explore reasons for this, and examine if this also applies to cases with more realistic models, e.g., having separate excitatory and inhibitory units (as suggested by other reviewer).

      (6b) Related to task complexity, it is not clear to me if non-negative value and feedback weights would generally scale to harder tasks. If the task in so simple that a global RPE signal is sufficient to learn (see 4 and 5), then it could be good to extend the task to find a substantial gap between: global RPE, non-negative FA, FA, BP. For a well chosen task, I expect to see a performance gap between any pair of these four learning rules. In the context of the present paper, this would be particularly interesting to study the failure mode of non-negative FA and the cases where it does perform as well as FA.

      In reply to this comment and also other reviewer's comment, we will examine the performance of the different models in more complex tasks, e.g., having distractor cues or longer delays. We will also see whether or not the better performance of bioVRNNrf than revVRNNbp mentioned in the previous point applies to the different tasks.

      (7) I find that the writing could be improved, it mostly feels more technical and difficult than it should. Here are some recommendations:

      (7a) for instance the technical description of the task (CSC) is not fully described and requires background knowledge from other paper which is not desirable.

      (7b) Also the rationale for the added difficulty with the stochastic reward and new state is not well explained.

      (7c) In the technical description of the results I find that the text dives into descriptive comments of the figures but high-level take home messages would be helpful to guide the reader. I got a bit lost, although I feel that there is probably a lot of depth in these paragraphs.

      Thank you for your helpful suggestions. We will thoroughly revise our writings.

      (8) Related to the writing issue and 5), I wished that "bio-plausibility" was not the only reason to study positive feedback and value weights. Is it possible to develop a bit more specifically what and why this positivity is interesting? Is there an expected finding with non-negative FA both in the model capability? or maybe there is a simpler and crisp take-home message to communicate the experimental predictions to the community would be useful?

      We will make considerations on whether/how the non-negative constraints could have any benefits other than biological plausibility, in particular, in theoretical aspects or applications using neuro-morphic hardware, while we will also elaborate the links to biology and concretize the model's predictions.

    1. Cette vidéo YouTube résume le livre « Thinking in Systems » de Donella Meadows, explorant la nature systémique du monde.

      Elle explique les concepts clés des systèmes, notamment les boucles de rétroaction, l’auto-organisation et la synergie.

      Le résumé détaille comment identifier les pièges systémiques et les points de levier pour intervenir efficacement.

      Finalement, la vidéo encourage une approche humble et adaptative face à la complexité inhérente aux systèmes.

      Voici un résumé minuté du livre Thinking in Systems de Donella Meadows, basé sur la vidéo YouTube :

      Chapitre 1 : Les bases (0:00-1:25)

      • Un système est un ensemble d’éléments interconnectés organisés pour atteindre une fonction ou un objectif spécifique.
      • Les systèmes sont plus que la somme de leurs parties.
      • Il est important de comprendre les relations et les boucles de rétroaction qui relient les parties d’un système.

      Chapitre 2 : Une brève visite au zoo des systèmes (1:25-2:50)

      • Les systèmes peuvent aller du simple (par exemple, un thermostat) au complexe (par exemple, une économie).
      • Les boucles de rétroaction sont des mécanismes qui font fonctionner les systèmes ; les boucles d’équilibrage les stabilisent tandis que les boucles de renforcement amplifient la croissance ou le déclin.

      Chapitre 3 : Pourquoi les systèmes fonctionnent si bien (2:50-4:20)

      • Les systèmes ont une capacité incroyable à se maintenir, grâce à leurs boucles de rétroaction et à leurs interconnexions.
      • Les systèmes peuvent s’auto-organiser, c’est-à-dire s’adapter et se reconfigurer sans intervention extérieure.
      • La synergie se produit lorsque le tout devient plus grand que la somme de ses parties.

      Chapitre 4 : Pourquoi les systèmes nous surprennent (4:20-5:55)

      • Les systèmes peuvent être imprévisibles en raison des retards, des non-linéarités et des interdépendances.
      • Nos modèles mentaux sont souvent trop simplistes pour tenir compte de la complexité des systèmes.

      Chapitre 5 : Pièges et opportunités du système (5:55-7:30)

      • Les pièges du système se produisent lorsque les systèmes se comportent d’une manière qui compromet leur objectif ou leurs buts.
      • Des exemples de pièges du système sont la résistance aux politiques, la dérive vers une faible performance et la tragédie des biens communs.
      • Chaque problème de système peut être une opportunité de créativité et d’intervention.

      Chapitre 6 : Points de levier : lieux d’intervention dans un système (7:30-9:00) * Les points de levier sont des zones spécifiques d’un système où de petits changements peuvent créer de grands effets. * Les points de levier les plus puissants impliquent souvent de modifier l’état d’esprit ou le paradigme qui sous-tend le système.

      Chapitre 7 : Vivre dans un monde de systèmes (9:00-10:00)

      • Nous vivons dans un monde de systèmes interconnectés, ce qui exige flexibilité, humilité et volonté d’apprendre.
      • Le but n’est pas de contrôler les systèmes, mais de s’aligner sur leurs tendances naturelles et de soutenir leur résilience.