reply to michaljjwilk at https://hypothes.is/a/rwiI4rJYEe62aaN50r2zzQ to ensure it's properly indexed:

Most following my argument will have likely read The Two Definitions of Zettelkasten which may cover some of your initial question, or at least from my perspective. (Others certainly have different views.)

Some of your questions relate to what Robert Hutchins calls "The Great Conversation" (1952) and efforts over time to create Summa or compilations of all knowledge.

Variations of your remark about Plato can be seen in later Greeks' aphorism that "Everywhere I go in my head, I meet Plato coming back." or more recently in A.N. Whitehead's statement that everything is "a footnote to Plato".

Connect Cephalus's perspective on living well from the end of his life (329a ff. (Greek)) with Aristotle's view of happiness as being defined over a "complete life" (NE I.7 1098a18-20 (Greek)), and his questions about whether one's happiness can be settled before (or even after) death (NE I.10-11 (Greek))

Connect Cephalus’s discussion of the value of wealth (329e ff. (Greek)) with Aristotle’s comments about the connection between wealth and happiness (eudaimonia) (NE I.4 1095a18-26 (Greek), I.5 1096a5-7 (Greek), I.8 1099a31-1099b9 (Greek), I.9 1099b26-29 (Greek)). (Christiana Olfert)

Yoav Rinon (1992): The Rhetoric of Jacques Derrida I: Plato's Pharmacy

Yoav Rinon (1993): The Rhetoric of Jacques Derrida II: Phaedrus

plato's höhle ... seit 2000 jahren nichts neues:<br /> die idioten sind lebenslang gefangen in angeborener dummheit,<br /> und ziehen alle anderen mit runter in die hölle, ins verderben...<br /> weil keiner denkt an die langzeitfolgen, jeder von diesen idioten denkt nur 5 sekunden voraus

Is every age afflicted by this superstition?

See full quote: https://hypothes.is/a/TTPGtl_GEe6psRsVpOxigg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_Estienne

The Incoherence of the Philosophers by al-Ghazali marks a dramatic turn in Islamic philosophy away from Aristotle and Plato which had been followed by previous Arab philosophers like Avicenna and al-Farabi.

The description of this scene is insinuating on the importance of the little things which I believe is what the author was trying to convey when asking such questions to seeing a dog with a bone. He even refers to Plato at one point who was known as a philosophical speaker who was wise in such ideas. "Plato says that true and reliable knowledge rests only with those who can comprehend the true reality behind the world of everyday experience." (Macintosh) Platos theory of forms suggested that there is a different reality to everything for each person. That would insinuate that for a dog, that bone is big thing worth his time, while as humans, we see the dog with his bone and think "why bother?".

There's an interesting parallel between this example and that of the character of Socrates in Plato with respect to writing and memory.

Some take notes to increase understanding, while others might suggest that note taking decreases understanding. The answer to remedying the discrepancy is in using the proper process.

and hard to get along with, since they are not wise, but only appear wise." pp 563-564

Plato. Euthyphro. Apology. Crito. Phaedo. Phaedrus. Translated by Harold North Fowler. Loeb Classical Library 36. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 1914. https://www.loebclassics.com/view/LCL036/1914/volume.xml.

John Vervaeke on Socrates becoming set of psychotechnologies to internalize and augment metacognition. Agues agumentation become central for Plato, whereas confrontation itself become central for Antisthenes. They're disagree about how the cause of the transformation through the Socratic approach

Unclear is stoics take up Plato's mantle of argumentation orientation, but they at least seem distinct from the Cynics (Antisthenes & teach Diogenes

Aporia is moment of shock from experience that you're radically transformed. Could be from Diogenes' provocative performance art or through discourse a la Plato & Socrates

Nietzche may have favored Cynics approach over stoic/Socratic. Possible parallel in left-hand path and right-hand path. Quick & risky vs. slow & steady

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephanus_pagination

Stephanus pagination is a system of reference numbers used in editions of Plato based on the three volume 1578 edition of Plato's complete works published by Henricus Stephanus (Henri Estienne) and translated by Joannes Serranus (Jean de Serres).

See also: - Bekker numbering (for Aristotle) - Diels-Kranz numbering (for early pre-Socratics)

Apparently one couldn't ever force children to learn anything...

Platos challenge to the arts

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/an-ancient-greek-astronomical-calculation-machine-reveals-new-secrets/

Overview and history of the Antikythera mechanism and the current state of research surrounding it.

Antikythera mechanism found in diving expedition in 1900 by Elias Stadiatis. It was later dated between 60 and 70 BCE, but evidence suggests it may have been made around 205 BCE.

Functions

One of the primary purposes of the device was to predict the positions of the planets along the ecliptic, the plane of the solar system.

The device was also used to track the positions of the sun and moon. This included the moon's phase, position and age (the number of days from a new moon). It also included the predictions of eclipses.

Used to track the motions of the 5 known planets including 289 synodic cycles in 462 years for Venus and 427 synodic cycles in 442 years for Saturn.

Risings and settings of stars indexed to a zodiac dial

Definitions

metonic cycle, a 19-year period over which 235 moon phases recur; named after Greek astronomer Meton, but discovered much earlier by the Babylonians. The Greeks refined it to a 76 year period.

saros cycle, the 223 month lunar cycle which was used by the Babylonians to predict eclipses. A dial on the Antikythera mechanism was used to predict the dates of the solar and lunar eclipses using this cycle.

synodic events: conjunctions with the sun and its stationary points

People

Archimedes - potentially the designer of an early version of the Antikythera mechanism

Elias Stadiatis - diver who discovered the Antikythera mechanism

Albert Rehm - German philologist who the numbers 19, 76 and 223 inscribed on fragments of the device in the early 1900s

Derek J. de Solla Price, published Gears from the Greeks in 1974. Identified the gear train and developed a complete model of the gearing.

Michael Wright - 3D x-ray study in 1990 using linear tomography; identified tooth counts of the gears and understood the upper dial on the back of the device

Tony Freeth - author of article and researcher whose made recent discoveries.

Parmenides of Elea developed a process reported by Plato for combining the known period relations of planets to get better ones.

1. This problem is known as Meno’s paradox (Plato, Meno 80e, Grube translation).

Meno's paradox: If you know what you're looking for, inquiry is unnecessary. If you don't know what you're looking for, inquiry is impossible. Therefore, inquiry is either unnecessary or impossible.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Process_and_Reality

Apparently this book is the one that contains his quote about western intellectual endeavors being footnotes to Plato.

I feel like Western culture has lost so much of our memory traditions that this trite story, which I've seen often repeated, doesn't have the weight it should.

Why can't we simultaneously have the old system AND the new? Lynne Kelly and Margo Neale touch on this in their coinage of the third archive in Songlines.

The nature of the wants that commodities satisfy makes no difference. This is perhaps somewhat surprising to readers, given the extent to which everyday critiques of capitalist society often center around the role that consumerism plays and the subjective effects that this produces, namely, the way that consumer society creates all sorts of desires (as well as the obverse--many will defend capitalism on the grounds that it is able to satisfy our inordinate appetite for novelty by producing an enormous proliferation of desirable commodities). Yet, for Marx, the nature of these desires "makes no difference."

It is worth pointing out that the critique of the appetites that consumer society spawns is by no means new (a rather early moment in the history of consumer society). We find it already on display in Book II of Plato's Republic. In looking to shift the terrain of the analysis of justice from the individualistic, social contractualist theory of justice elaborated by Glaucon, Socrates founds a 'city' based on the idea that no one is self-sufficient, that human beings have much need of one another, and that the various crafts--farming, weaving cloth, etc.--fare best when each person specializes in that craft to which they are most suited by nature. After sketching out a kind of idyllic, pastoral community based on the principle of working together to satisfy our natural appetites, Socrates aristocratic companion Glaucon objects, describing this city as a 'city fit for pigs'. At this point, Socrates conjures what he calls the 'luxurious city', at which point a whole host of social ills are unleashed in order to satisfy Glaucon's desire for the luxuries to which he is accustomed. Currency and trade are introduced, along with a more complex division of labor (and wage labor!), and quite quickly, war. On the basis of the principle of 'one person, one craft', Socrates argues that making war is itself a craft that requires specialization (and thus a professional army).

For Plato, this represents the beginning of class society, as the profession military becomes a class distinct from the class of producers and merchants.

Plato thus anticipates a version of a view that becomes one of the key theses of the Marxist theory of the state, namely, the idea that the state exists only in societies that have become "entangled in an insoluble contradiction within itself" and which are "cleft into irreconcilable antagonisms which it is powerless to dispel," (Engels, The Origin of the Family, Private Property, and the State). The state emerges as "a power apparently standing above society...whose purpose is to moderate the conflict and keep it within the bounds of 'order'" Engels writes, "this power arising out of society, but placing itself above it, and increasingly separating itself from it, is the state." Lenin cites this passage in the first pages of State and Revolution in order to critique the 'bourgeois' view that the state exists in order to reconcile class interests. In Lenin's reading of Marx, the state exists as "an organ of classs domination, an organ of oppression of one class by another," a view articulated in The Communist Manifesto, (cf. V.I. Lenin, State and Revolution in V.I.Lenin: Collected Works, Vol. 25, pp. 385-497).

Marx cites this same passage from Republic in a long footnote to his discussion of the Division of Labor and Manufacture on pp. 487-488, which also happens to be the sole place in Capital where Marx cites Plato.

The fact that Marx here expresses indifference to the particular appetites that commodities satisfy is thus intriguing and ambiguous. Given that this question both clearly animates Plato's discussion of the origin of class society in Republic and, additionally serves as an alternative to the social contractarian view of justice that descends from Glaucon through Hobbes and the 18th century 'Robinsonades', this seemingly technical point also touches upon questions concerning Marx's engagement with both classical and modern political theory.

If for Plato, the unruly appetites represent the seed of which class-divided society is the fruit, Marx's dismissal of the question of the nature of the appetites that are satisfied by commodities points to exchange-value and the social forms that it unleashes as being key dimensions of the particular form that class-antagonism takes in capitalist society.

The question!

Fonte confiável de estudo.

This really is an effective format, the fictional dialogue. Not unlike Plato's use of it.

Again the (Platonic) ranking of the spiritual over the physical.

This reminds me of Plato's "Chariot Allegory:" the notion that the charioteer (logic, reason) attempts to drive and control the two horses (rational and irrational) toward the truth.

Even though there are those in the room who aren't fans of Plato, I'm reminded of his description of the philosopher here, where he likens the philosopher to the only one who understands navigation by the stars on a ship full of people. The other sailors laugh and deride the "stargazer," because he seems foolish to them. But of course, the philosophers are right and the sailors are wrong.

Granted, this may just be a highly stylized and ancient form of "I'm rubber, you're glue."

Plato: "You can't give long answers or talk funny. Just give it to me straight, without all the obfuscation."

this is referring to the dialogues of philosopher Plato, who was a student of Socrates, Plato was in turn the teacher of Aristotle

Hm. So in the analogy above, does that mean "others" in a community serve as reminders of how not to live (in the case of non-ascetics) or how to live (other ascetics)?

Plato wouldn't like that (Phaedrus, writing as destructive to memory).

Immediately reminds me of Plato's "Allegory of the Cave."

Being is one

But these footnotes are inscribed forms of thought. Plato is himself nothing but a series of written inscription - of which these footnotes are a part.

Stiegler: "When do(es) the human / the technical begin and end?"

Stiegler > Plato: Meno's "aporia" / "the myth of anamnesis" ||

Plato's version of rhetoric

Rhetoric as bad.

Perhaps this helps us understand what Eryximachus says to Aristophanes in the Symposium about his comedy focing Eryximachus to be on guard against Aristophanes's speech (189a8-10).

Plato's idea of beauty?

Is it in the Phaedrus where the conversation takes place outside the city walls?

Gor. Some answers, Socrates, are of necessity longer; but I will do my best to make them as short as possible; for a part of my profession is that I can be as short as any one.

Soc. That is what is wanted, Gorgias; exhibit the shorter method now, and the longer one at some other time.

Gor. Well, I will; and you will certainly say, that you never heard a man use fewer words.

Soc. Very good then; as you profess to be a rhetorician, and a maker of rhetoricians, let me ask you, with what is rhetoric concerned: I might ask with what is weaving concerned, and you would reply (would you not?), with the making of garments?

Gor. Yes.

Soc. And music is concerned with the composition of melodies?

Gor. It is.

Soc. By Here, Gorgias, I admire the surpassing brevity of your answers.

Gor. Yes, Socrates, I do think myself good at that.

Soc. I am glad to hear it; answer me in like manner about rhetoric: with what is rhetoric concerned?

Gor. With discourse.

Soc. What sort of discourse, Gorgias?-such discourse as would teach the sick under what treatment they might get well?

Gor. No.

Soc. Then rhetoric does not treat of all kinds of discourse?

Gor. Certainly not.

Soc. And yet rhetoric makes men able to speak?

Gor. Yes.

Soc. And to understand that about which they speak?

Gor. Of course.

Soc. But does not the art of medicine, which we were just now mentioning, also make men able to understand and speak about the sick?

Gor. Certainly.

Soc. Then medicine also treats of discourse?

Gor. Yes.

Soc. Of discourse concerning diseases?

Gor. Just so.

Soc. And does not gymnastic also treat of discourse concerning the good or evil condition of the body?

Gor. Very true.

Soc. And the same, Gorgias, is true of the other arts:-all of them treat of discourse concerning the subjects with which they severally have to do.

Gor. Clearly.

Soc. Then why, if you call rhetoric the art which treats of discourse, and all the other arts treat of discourse, do you not call them arts of rhetoric?

Gor. Because, Socrates, the knowledge of the other arts has only to do with some sort of external action, as of the hand; but there is no such action of the hand in rhetoric which works and takes effect only through the medium of discourse. And therefore I am justified in saying that rhetoric treats of discourse.

Soc. I am not sure whether I entirely understand you, but I dare say I shall soon know better; please to answer me a question:-you would allow that there are arts?

Gor. Yes.

Soc. As to the arts generally, they are for the most part concerned with doing, and require little or no speaking; in painting, and statuary, and many other arts, the work may proceed in silence; and of such arts I suppose you would say that they do not come within the province of rhetoric.

Gor. You perfectly conceive my meaning, Socrates.

Ah ha! So I guess this answers my question about the Burke reading. I had a hard time following the Burke, but Weaver's connection to Plato is obviously much clearer. (And Weaver in general is also much clearer.)

This sort of sounds like the Platonic forms, but for human actions rather than objects. Are these ideas sort of analogous?

Does this almost harken back to Plato's Theory of Forms, or the idea that a perfect and original realization of a thing exists in a higher form beyond our grasp? Can we only see and know shadows of a thing (in this case, a leaf) and mere copies of our perception of that thing?

The interesting ways in which Plato re-emerges here.

How exactly was memory so powerful for Plato? This seems to be one of the biggest shifts from ancient rhetoric to modern rhetoric. In academia and rhetoric, it seems that memory isn't considered access to higher knowledge but more of a roadblock, just parroting other ideas rather than becoming truly innovative and a critical thinker.

The Ancient Greeks were depressingly pragmatic. The Elysian Fields was where heroes went when they died. However, they acknowledged that most went to Asphodel which was a place where souls just kind of existed. In Plato's Critias, he describes Atlantis. It's primary source of the legend. Though the society is supposed to be far superior to anything else in the Aegean world, it's never described as perfect. Beautiful, but never perfect. If the word 'utopia' did come from the Greeks with the idea that it was the perfect society, they probably meant 'no place.' Besides, the Greeks loved their heroes and you can't become a hero in a world without conflict.

p. 95 "For nearly all of recorded history, we human beings have lived our lives isolated inside tiny cocoons of information. The most brilliant and knowledgeable of our ancestors often had direct access to only a tiny fraction of human knowledge. Then in the 1990s and 2000s, over a period of just two decades, our direct access to knowledge expanded perhaps a thousandfold. At the same time, a second, even more important expansion has been going on: an expansion in our ability to find meaning in our collective knowledge."

p. 60 "Citation is perhaps the most powerful technique for building an information commons that could be created with seventeenth-century technology."

Nielsen, Michael A. 2012. Reinventing Discovery: The New Era of Networked Science. Princeton, N.J: Princeton University Press.

Top cited biologists describe their most important (i.e. most cited) work as the result of an evolutionary not revolutionary process.

Harpers 1873 the telegraph, pp. 359-360

Discusses the future importance of the telegraph in terms of its impact on knowledge: will free language from philology and allow us to make improvements on that. Mentions the beginnings of the typewriter.

"The immense extension of the general telegraphic system, and its common use for business and social correspondence and the dissemination of public intelligence, are far more important to the community than any of these incidental applications of the system. The telegraph system is extending much more rapidly than the railroad system, and is probably exerting even a greater influence upon the mental development of the people than the railroad is exerting in respect to the material and physical prosperity of the country. It has penetrated almost every mind with a new sense of the vastnessof distance and the value of time. It is commonly said that it has annihilated time and space--and this is true in a sense; but in a deeper sense it has magnified both, for it has been the means of expanding vastly the inadequate conceptions which we form of space and distance, and of giving a significance to the idea of time which it never before had to the human mind. It lifts every man who reads its messages above his own little circle, gives him in a vivid flash, as it were, a view of vast distances, and tends by an irresistible influence to make him a citizen of his country and a fellow of the race as well as a member of his local community.

In other respects its influence, though less obvious, will probably prove equally profound. So long as the mysterious force employed in the telegraph was only known in the mariner’s compass, or by scientific investigations, or in a few special processes of art, the knowledge of the electric or magnetic force had, so to speak, a very limited soil to grow in. By means of the telegraph many thousands of persons in this country are constantly employed in dealing with it practically--generating it, insulating it, manipulating it. The invention of Morse has engaged some one in every considerable town and village in studying its properties, watching its operation, and using it profitably. Nothing could be better calculated to attract general attention to this newfound power, and to disseminate that knowl edge of it from which new applications may be expected to result.

The tendency of scientific pursuits to promote the love of truth and the habit of accuracy is strikingly illustrated in the zeal and fidelity with which the minute and long-continued investigations have been pursued that have led to the development of this new realm of knowledge and this new element in human affairs.

But perhaps the most extended and important influence which the telegraph is destined to exert upon the human mind is that which it will ultimately work out through its influence upon language.

Language is the instrument of thought. It is not merely a means of expression. A word is a tool for thinking, before the thinker uses it as a signal for communicating his thought. There is no good reason why it should not be free to be improved, as other implements are. Language has hitherto been regarded merely in a historical point of view, and even now philology is little more than a record of the differences in language which have separated mankind, and of the steps of development in it which each branch of the human family has pursued. And as a whole it may be said that the science of language in the hands of philologists is used to perpetuate the differences and irregularities of speech which prevail. The telegraph is silently introducing a new element, which, we may confidently predict, will one day present this subject in a different aspect. The invention of Morse has given beyond recall the pre-eminence to the Italian alphabet, and has secured the ultimate adoption through-out the world of that system or some improvement upon it. The community of intelligence, and the necessary convertibility of expression between difl‘erent languages, which the press through the influence of the telegraph is establishing, have commenced a process of assimilation, the results of which are already striking to those who carefully examine the subject. An important event transpiring in any part of the civilized world is concisely expressed in a dispatch which is immediately reproduced in five or ten or more different languages. A comparison of such dispatches with each other will show that in them the peculiar; and local idioms of each language are to a large extent discarded. The process sifts out, as it were, the characteristic peculiarities of each language, and it may be confidently said that nowhere in literature will be found a more remarkable parallelism of structure, and even of word forms, combined with equal purity and strength in each language, than in the telegraphic columns of the leading dailies of the capitals of Europe and America. A traveler in Europe, commencing the study of the language of the country where he may be, finds no reading which he can so easily master as the telegraphic news column. The telegraph is cosmopolitan, and is rapidly giving prominence to those modes of speech in which different languages resemble each other. When we add to this the fact that every step of advance made by science and the arts increases that which different languages have in common by reason of the tendency of men in these pursuits the world over to adopt a common nomenclature, and to think alike or in similar mental processes, we see the elements already at work which will ultimately relegate philology to its proper and useful place among the departments of history, and will free language from those restrictions which now forbid making any intentional improvements in it. With the general use of the telegraphic system other things begin to readjust themselves to its conditions. Short-hand writing is more cultivated now than ever before. The best reporter must understand both systems, and be able to take his notes of a conversation while it passes, and then by stepping into an office transmit it at, once without writing out. There is now in practical use in the city of New York a little instrument the size of a sewing-machine, having a keyboard like the printing telegraph, by which any one can write in print as legibly as this page, and almost as rapidly as a reporter in short-hand. When we consider the immense number of people that every day by writing a telegram and counting the words are taking a most efficient lesson in concise composition, we see in another way the influence of this invention on the strength of language. If the companies should ever adopt the system of computing all their charges by the number of letters instead of words, as indeed they do now for all cipher or unintelligible messages, the world would very quickly be considering the economic advantages of phonetic or other improved orthography.

These processes are in operation all the world over, and in reference to the use of one and the same alphabet. By the principle which Darwin describes as natural selection short words are gaining the advantage of long words, direct forms of expression are gaining the advantage over indirect, words of precise meaning the advantage of the ambiguous, and local idioms are every where at a disadvantage. The doctrine of the Survival of the Fittest thus tends to the constant improvement and points to the ultimate unification of language.

The idea of a common language of the world, therefore, however far in the future it may be, is no longer a dream of the poet nor a scheme of a conqueror. And it is significant of the spirit of the times that this idea, once so chimerical, should at the time we are writing find expression in the inaugural of our Chief Magistrate, in his declaration of the belief “ that our Great Maker is preparing the world in His own good time to become one nation, speaking one language, and when armies and navies will be no longer required.”

Harpers 1873 the telegraph, pp. 334-336.

"With the exception of those general readers whose taste or course of reading has led them somewhat into scientific paths, there are not many persons who find it easy to form a definite idea of the precise mode of action by which a telegraphic wire conveys its messages--so multitudinous and varies in their character, and transmitted with such inceivable rapidity...<pb n="335"/><pb n="336"/>[stories of people looking for physical messages]. Still to the mass even of intelligent and well-informed readers, the precise mode in which the communications are made is a mystery more or less inscrutable.

The difficulty of forming a clear conception of the subject is increased by the fact that while we have to deal with novel and strange facts, we have also to use old words in novel and inconsistent senses.

Harper's 1873 p. 334 "The Telegraph": Mr. Orton, the president of Western Union, comments on the value of metadata as a way of gathering commercial intelligence:

"Our observer, if he could not only see the oscillations of electric condition, but also discern the meaning of the pulsations, and read the messages as they circulate, would thus have a panorama of the business and social affairs of the country passing under his eye. But the telegraphy has now become so true a representative of our life that would hardly be necessary to read the messages in order to find an indication of the state of the country. The mere degree of activity in the business uses of the telegraphy in any given direction affords an index of the prosperity of the section of the country served thereby. Mr. Orton, the president of the Western Union Company, gave a striking statement of this fact in his argument before a committee of Congress in 1870. He said: "The fact is, the telegraph lives upon commerce. It is the nervous system of the commercial system. If you will sit down with me at my office for twenty minutes, I will show you what the condition of business is at any given time in any locality in the United States. After three years of careful study of the matter, I am ready to appeal to the telegraphy receipts as a criterion under all circumstances. This last year, the grain business in the West has been very dull; as a consequence, the receipts from that section have fallen off twenty-five per cent. Business in the South has been gaining a little, month by month, for the last year or so; and now the telegraphic receipts from that quarter give stronger indications of returning prosperity than at any previous time since the war."'

Plato's shadow cave.

reference to Socrates in Plato

reference to Gorgias in Plato