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  1. Dec 2024
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      Reply to the reviewers

      Reply to the Reviewers

      We sincerely thank the reviewers for their comprehensive and constructive feedback.

      Reviewer #1

      Major comments:

      1. The data and key conclusions of the paper are convincing. However, the reliability of the findings in terms of the new interaction could be improved by not relying solely on proximity ligation approaches (BioID, PLA), but employing a complementary biochemical strategy. The authors state that an immunoprecipitation (IP) was not possible due to a lack of antibodies for IP. This does not seem convincing since in the paper Saito-Diaz et al which they cite commercial antibodies were used to immunoprecipitate APC. Alternatively, the cell line expressing tagged ROBO1 could be used together with endogenous or tagged APC for an biochemical interaction experiment.

      Response

      We thank the reviewer for this important suggestion. In our initial studies, we attempted co-immunoprecipitation (co-IP) experiments using several different antibodies directed to APC. The signal detected was very low, possibly reflecting relatively low endogenous expression of ROBO1 in COS-7 cells, technical challenges associated with co-IP of APC and ROBO1, which are both large proteins (>200 kDa), and/or transient interactions between the two proteins. As part of the revision plan we will carry out co-IP experiments using HEK293A cells stably expressing full length ROBO1 (5H9 cells).

      Regarding the PLA experiment, I was very surprised by the very strong labeling for Clathrin+ROBO1 shown in the representative image. It is hard to believe that this image is representative when the average number of dots in the quantification is about 100. From the image it is also hard to see how it would be possible to quantify individual dots. For this, a zoom would be helpful.

      Response

      We thank the reviewer for this helpful comment. In the revised manuscript, we have added a magnified panel to Figure 4E.

      Clathrin and ROBO1 are likely not even direct interactors but come together by their common interaction with AP2. Therefore, to back this surprisingly strong result up, I would recommend to include one more control such as another rabbit antibody recognizing a protein that does not associate with clathrin or use e.g. the ROBO1 wildtype vs the ROBO1 mutant, that does not bind AP2 and therefore should also not associate with clathrin, for the experiment. Even better, the authors could confirm the PLA results by the mentioned complementary biochemical experiments to bolster the findings by an independent approach.

      Response

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. As recommended, we will use the complementary biochemical approaches suggested, and will perform immunoprecipitation experiments to examine interactions with clathrin in cells that express wildtype ROBO1 vs. cells that express mutant ROBO1 that does not bind AP2. As recommended, we will further perform experiments using control antibody directed to a protein that does not associate with clathrin.

      Minor comments:

      In general, data and methods are presented in a manner that should make them reproducible by others. Some small things to improve are:

      1. In the paragraph on antibodies the used concentrations for the different applications should be provided.

      Response

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion and apologize for the omission. In the revised manuscript, we have added a supplementary table to clarify the concentrations of antibodies used for different experimental applications. Please see Table s1.

      It should be described how the poly-D-lysine coating was exactly performed.

      Response

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. In the revised manuscript, we have added the procedure for poly-D-lysine coating in the "Materials and Methods" section. Please see page 7 line 143-144.

      The statistical analysis looks adequate. There are just some minor things that should be specified:- Just to make sure: Is it really always SD which is provided and not SEM? Sometimes the error bars look so small that I was wondering about this.

      Response

      We appreciate the opportunity to clarify that we used SD consistently in the manuscript.

      • It should be specified for each experiment which post-hoc test is used or stated that one is always used for the One-Way ANOVA and the other for the Two-Way ANOVA resp. a rationale should be provided why two different post-hoc tests are used.

      Response

      We have added the post hoc tests used for each assay in the figure legend. The rationale for the different post hoc tests used has also been added in the "Materials and Methods" section as "Two-tailed paired Student's t-test was used for two-group comparisons. One-way ANOVA followed by Tukey's post hoc multiple comparison test was used for multiple-group comparisons with a single independent variable, and two-way ANOVA followed by Sidak's post hoc multiple comparison test was used for multiple-group comparisons with two independent variables". Please see page 12 line 275-279, page 20 line 519-520, page 21 line 524-525, 533-534, 537-538, 540-541, 543-544, page 22 line 551-552, 555-556, 561-562, 576-577, page 23 line 582, 584-585, 587, 589-590, 595, 599, page 24 line 624-625, 629, 635-636, page 25 638-639.

      • When using the t-test, it should be stated whether it is paired or unpaired and one- or two-tailed.

      Response

      Two-tailed paired Student's t-test was used in Fig. 5C. We have added in the "Materials and Methods" section and figure legend in the revised manuscript. Please see page 12 line 275-276, page 23 line 587.

      • It should be stated whether it was tested that the data fulfill the requirements for parametric tests (normal distribution).

      Response

      We have added "The data fulfilled the requirements for normal distribution using the Shapiro-Wilk test" in the "Materials and Methods" section in the revised manuscript. Please see page 12 line 274-275 in the revised manuscript.

      Text and figures are mostly clear, apart from some small things:

      • I was wondering about figure 1B. If I understand the methods description right, all cells were permeabilized prior to secondary antibody application. Why then is so little fluorescence for Flag visible in the first PBS row at 30 min? That would only make sense for me if the cell was not permeabilized and the protein internalized. So where did the majority of the protein end up after 30 min since you should see the entire population in a permeabilized cell? Could you please comment on this?

      Response

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. The cells were permeabilized prior to secondary antibody application. Since NSLIT2 binding to ROBO1 can facilitate ADAM10-mediated ROBO1 cleavage to release the extracellular domain of ROBO1 (Coleman et al., 2010), this may have caused little fluorescence for Flag to be visible in the first PBS row at 30 min. In the revised manuscript we have added a comment about the finding described. Please see page 13 line 293-296.

      • Fig. 2A the upper left image (0 min PBS) should be very similar to the upper left image in Fig. 1B, shouldn´t it? But it looks quite different to me in terms of surface amount of ROBO1-Flag. Could you please comment on this?

      Response

      We apologize for the confusing images included in the original version of the manuscript. As noted, the upper left image (0 min PBS) in Fig. 2A should be very similar to the upper left image in Fig. 1B. We have now instead included an image for Fig. 2A that is more representative of the data from the experiments we performed.

      • Please explain what the molecular difference between bio-active NSLIT2 and bio-inactive CSLIT2 is. Please provide a rationale why you sometimes use CSLIT2 as negative control and sometimes DD2SLIT2. In Fig. 3G you are using DD2SLIT2. Even though there is no significance reached with the analyzed n, it is very striking that the bars are consistently higher upon DD2SLIT2 application. Can you comment on this effect? Or am I misunderstanding the labeling of the figure?

      Response

      Bio-active NSLIT2 consists of the N-terminal fragment of SLIT2 and contains the second leucine-rich repeat (LRR) domain (D2), which binds to the first two Ig domains of the ROBO1 receptor (Ig1-2). Bio-inactive CSLIT2 consists of the C-terminal fragment of SLIT2, which does not bind ROBO1. DD2SLIT2 consists of the N-terminal fragment of SLIT2 but lacks D2 LRR domain that is essential for ROBO1 binding. Neither CSLIT2 nor DD2SLIT2 can bind the ROBO1 receptor (Bhosle et al., 2020; Mukovozov et al., 2015; Patel et al., 2012). In Fig. 3G, DD2SLIT2 was used as negative control and did not affect cell spreading, so the bars are consistently higher upon D2SLIT2 application. The use of CSLIT2 or DD2SLIT2 in different experiments was due to the availability of these reagents. In Fig. 3F and 3G, we have made modifications to the X axis to clarify.

      • On page 3 it states "...endocytosis of ROBO1...requires...APC": I found this confusing since it is the dissociation of APC that is required for promoting endocytosis. Therefore, it would be good to rephrase this sentence.

      Response

      We apologize for the confusing language. In the revised manuscript, we have changed "endocytosis of ROBO1 from the cell surface requires the tumor suppressor protein, APC" to "endocytosis of ROBO1 from the cell surface requires the dissociation of the tumor suppressor protein, APC". Please see page 4 line 35-36.

      • On page 8 is written "...cells surface ROBO1 [is] removed". Please be more accurate since the acid wash does not remove ROBO1, but only the antibody bound to the extracellular epitope.

      Response

      We apologize for the confusing language. In the revised manuscript, we have changed "cell surface ROBO1 removed" to "anti-Flag antibody binding ROBO1 removed from the cell surface". Please see page 8 line 153-154.

      • On page 8 provide an explanation for the abbreviation HAC.

      Response

      To enhance clarity, in the revised manuscript we have used the full name "acetic acid" instead of using the abbreviation "HAC". Please see page 8 line 155.

      • On page 15 you speak of "mutant AP2". Please be more accurate since there is no mutant AP2 involved, but you are refering to ROBO1 with mutations in its AP2 binding motifs.
      • On page 14 you speak of "cells expressing the mutant alleles of AP2". As above, please be more accurate and replace with "cells expressing ROBO1 harboring mutations in both AP2 binding sites".

      Response

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion and apologize for the confusion. For the sake of accuracy, we have made the changes as suggested by the reviewer. Please see page 15 line 351 and page 14 line 331-332.

      • On page 19 you write: "Using proximity ligation assays, we observed that ROBO1, APC and clathrin interact with one another". I am maybe a bit picky here, but in my eyes with these assays you only show that they are very close together and might be in a complex, but you do not show (direct) interaction in a strict sense. Therefore, I would downtone this a bit.

      Response

      We thank the reviewer for this important comment. As suggested, in the revised manuscript, we replaced "Using proximity ligation assays, we observed that ROBO1, APC and clathrin interact with one another" with "Using proximity ligation assays, we observed that ROBO1, APC and clathrin are in close proximity to one another". Please see page 18 line 458. We have similarly amended the language throughout the manuscript. Please see page 3 line 11-12, page 4 line 37, page 16 line 391, 394, 396, 398, page 22 line 564.

      • In Fig. 5B I would find it easier for the reader if siRNA and control were shown side by side for the different conditions.

      Response

      In the revised manuscript, we have made the changes suggested by the reviewer to enhance clarity.

      • Between the internalization assays and the spreading assays, you switch from HEK293 cells to COS7 cells. Please provide a rationale for this for the reader.

      Response

      Because the endogenous expression of ROBO1 is relatively low in COS-7 cells, we generated a HEK293A cell line that stably expresses ROBO1, and used these cells to examine subcellular traffic of ROBO1 and explore interactors of ROBO1. We next sought to explore the functional consequences of internalization of ROBO1 and the functional role of APC. As we and others previously showed that SLIT2-ROBO1 signaling inhibits cell spreading (Bhosle et al., 2020; Patel et al., 2012; Tole et al., 2009), we elected to use this measure as a biologic read-out. Because HEK293A cells do not spread as much as COS-7 cells, we instead used COS-7 cells for the spreading assays.

      • You provide a table with putative interactors within the paper and as supplementary table. Could you please explain better to the reader what your criteria were for including hits into the "short-list" presented in Table1.

      Response

      We chose proteins based on two criteria. The first was association with full-length ROBO1, but not with ROBO1 lacking the intracellular domain. The second was association with full-length ROBO1 under basal conditions, but loss of association with full-length ROBO1 after exposure of cells to NSLIT2. In the revised manuscript, we have added the criteria in the manuscript. Please see page 15 line 363-366.

      Typos - p. 6: CO2 instead of CO2

      • p21 last line: Immunoblotting should not be capitzalized.

      • Figure s1 legend: full-lenth is missing a g

      Response

      We apologize for the oversight. In the revised manuscript, we have corrected these typos. Please see page 6 line 97, page 21 line 535 and page 24 line 611.

      Significance

      It was already known from Drosophila and for mammalian cells that SLIT2 induces the endocytosis of ROBO1 and that this is necessary for its repulsive function in axon guidance as the authors point out. The key advance of the study is the identification of APC as an interactor of ROBO1 which decreases its endocytosis until it dissociates upon SLIT2 binding to ROBO1. This is an interesting aspect which opens up parallels to the regulation of Wnt signaling by APC as the authors discuss. The significance of this finding would be even greater if it would have been shown that this mechanism actually operates in axon guidance. That not being the case, the authours might want to discuss in more detail if APC has previously been implicated to affect axon guidance.

      Researchers working on endocytosis, adhesion, cellular signaling and the development of the nervous system will be interested in these findings.

      Response

      We thank the reviewer for the positive comments regarding the significance of our findings. As recommended, in the discussion section of the revised manuscript we will discuss in more detail what is known about the role of APC in axon guidance.

      Reviewer #2

      Major comments:

      1. As the authors emphasize the role of NSlit2 in Robo1 internalization throughout their manuscript, I suggest authors include "NSlit" in their title. Something like this "Adenomatous polyposis coli (APC) regulates the NSlit2-induced internalization and signaling of the chemo repellent receptor, hRoundabout (ROBO) 1" or maybe a better title.

      Response

      As suggested, we have changed the title of the revised manuscript to "Adenomatous polyposis coli (APC) regulates the NSLIT2-induced internalization and signaling of the chemorepellent receptor, Roundabout (ROBO) 1".

      In addition to transferrin as the control for their internalization studies, have the authors tested the specificity of NSlit-2-induced internalization with other Robo receptors such as Robo2? Does the APC bind to Robo2 also?

      Response

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. Due to significant cost constraints, we focused our BioID experiments on identifying proteins that interact with ROBO1. In the revised manuscript, we will expand the discussion to consider the questions raised here by the reviewer.

      The N-Slit group at 0' in Figure 1 b and Figure 2a, the Flag-Robo staining looks very different. Is it because the authors did not use ADAM protease inhibitor in Figure 2a that's why they are seeing more internalized Flag-Robo at 0'? It is not very clear either in the Results or the legend.

      Response

      We apologize for the confusing images. We used ADAM protease inhibitor for all endocytosis assays, as mentioned in the "Materials and Methods" section. The upper left image (0 min PBS) in Fig. 2A should be very similar to the upper left image in Fig. 1B. We have now replaced the image in 2A with one that is more representative of the overall results.

      Have the authors tested the Surface Robo1 pool in siAPC cells induced with or without N-Slit2?

      Response

      We added NSLIT2 to cells as we started endocytosis assay. At the time point of 0 min, the surface ROBO1 pool was not affeacted by NSLIT2.

      Does the Robo1 mutated with AP2 binding motifs interact with APC? Have authors performed a Proximity ligation assay with AP2-binding motifs mutated Robo1 and APC?

      Response

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. As recommended, we will perform proximity ligation assays to examine interactions between APC and ROBO1 which lacks AP2-binding motifs.

      The resolution of PLA dots in the current version is very low. Authors should include higher magnification pictures for these interactions and also PLA dots channel should be separately represented in addition to the DAPI merged images for better clarity and interpretation.

      Response

      We thank the reviewer for these suggestions. In the revised manuscript, we have included figures with the recommended modifications to enhance clarity. Please see figure 4A, 4C and 4E.

      Do the Slit2 treated cells affect APC mRNA expression? Or does Slit2 only inhibit the interaction between APC and Robo1? Have the authors tested the mRNA expression of APC in slit2-treated and untreated cells?

      Response

      We thank the reviewer for this question. We will perform the experiments suggested and include the results in the revised manuscript.

      The authors have tested the effect of Slit2-induced inhibition of cell spreading under different experimental conditions however it is also important to test the cell migration/proliferation rates under control and siAPC conditions with or without Slit2 treatment.

      Response

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. In order to test the effect of APC on SLIT2-induced cell migration, a migratory cell type would be required. This would involve introducing a third cell type in addition to the HEK293 and COS-7 cells we have already used, and first validating our key experimental findings in the new cell type. Please see our response to the 10th sub-comment in Minor Comment 4) of Reviewer 1.

      Do authors see the inhibition of Robo1 and Cyfip interactions also in the presence of Slit2 by PLA assay?

      Response

      We thank the reviewer for this interesting question. As this was beyond the scope of the current study, we did not examine whether SLIT2 inhibits interactions between ROBO1 and CYFIP. In the Discussion section of the revised manuscript, we will address this question as a potential line of future investigation.

      Studying the endogenous Robo1 and APC interaction by PLA is good but I suggest authors do standard co-IP assays to visualize these interactions since authors have already generated a variety of general epitope- tagged constructs for both Robo1 and APC. These epitope-specific antibodies that are best suitable for IP are easily available with many antibody companies. This is the first study to suggest that the interaction between Robo1 and APC so the strong biochemistry would have a good impact on the findings.

      Response

      We appreciate this important suggestion. We will perform the recommended studies and include the results in the revised manuscript. Please also see our response to Reviewer 1, Major Comment 1).

      Minor comments:

      1. I suggest the authors show the single-channel images of Flag-robo (green) in Figure 2B for a clear visualization of internalized Robo in a cell. With DAPI-merged images, it is hard to specifically visualize Robo in these cells.

      Response

      We assume the reviewer was referring Figure 2A instead of 2B. To enhance clarity, in the revised manuscript we have made the changes suggested by the reviewer.

      In Figure 1C, the Y axis should have a clear indication. Instead of "% internalized" it should be mentioned as "% Internalized Robo1".

      Response

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion and apologize for the oversight. In the revised manuscript, we have made the suggested change in Figure 1C, 2B, 2D, 2E, 5B and 5D.

      I suggest authors to include the simple schematic of the mechanism they are proposing in the manuscript.

      Response

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. To enhance clarity, in the revised manuscript we will include a simple schematic of the mechanism our findings suggest.

      The authors should mention the rationale or the function of using the acid wash method for their experimental conditions for a better understanding of the reader.

      Response

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion and apologize for the oversight. We performed acid wash experiments to remove the anti-Flag antibody that binds ROBO1 from the cell surface for the endocytosis assay. To increase the clarity, in the "Materials and Methods" section of the revised manuscript we have included the rationale for using acid wash. Please see page 8 line 153-154.

      siRNA-mediated knockdown of specific genes should be correctly denoted in the figure. For example, instead of "CLTC", it should be "siCLTC" for easy understanding. The same correction has to be done in all the figures with siRNA data.

      Response

      We thank the reviewer for this helpful comment and apologize for the oversight. As suggested, we have made the suggested changes throughout the revised manuscript and in Figure 2C, 2D, 5A, 5B, 6A, 6B, 6C, s2C and s2D.

      Reference

      Bhosle, V.K., Mukherjee, T., Huang, Y.W., Patel, S., Pang, B.W.F., Liu, G.Y., Glogauer, M., Wu, J.Y., Philpott, D.J., Grinstein, S., et al. (2020). SLIT2/ROBO1-signaling inhibits macropinocytosis by opposing cortical cytoskeletal remodeling. Nat Commun 11, 4112.

      Coleman, H.A., Labrador, J.P., Chance, R.K., and Bashaw, G.J. (2010). The Adam family metalloprotease Kuzbanian regulates the cleavage of the roundabout receptor to control axon repulsion at the midline. Development (Cambridge, England) 137, 2417-2426.

      Mukovozov, I., Huang, Y.W., Zhang, Q., Liu, G.Y., Siu, A., Sokolskyy, Y., Patel, S., Hyduk, S.J., Kutryk, M.J., Cybulsky, M.I., et al. (2015). The Neurorepellent Slit2 Inhibits Postadhesion Stabilization of Monocytes Tethered to Vascular Endothelial Cells. J Immunol 195, 3334-3344.

      Patel, S., Huang, Y.W., Reheman, A., Pluthero, F.G., Chaturvedi, S., Mukovozov, I.M., Tole, S., Liu, G.Y., Li, L., Durocher, Y., et al. (2012). The cell motility modulator Slit2 is a potent inhibitor of platelet function. Circulation 126, 1385-1395.

      Tole, S., Mukovozov, I.M., Huang, Y.W., Magalhaes, M.A., Yan, M., Crow, M.R., Liu, G.Y., Sun, C.X., Durocher, Y., Glogauer, M., et al. (2009). The axonal repellent, Slit2, inhibits directional migration of circulating neutrophils. Journal of leukocyte biology 86, 1403-1415.

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      Referee #3

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      Comments on Huang et al.

      In their manuscript, Robinson and colleagues explore the role of the APC protein in the regulation of Slit-Robo signaling in mammalian cell culture. In particular, the authors investigate the importance of APC in controlling the endocytosis of Robo and its subsequent signaling. The authors begin by demonstrating that as previously reported in a Drosophila model that Slit induces the internalization of Robo through Clathrin dependent endocytosis and that this effect depends on two AP binding motifs in the Robo c-terminal tail. In a cellular readout for Slit- signaling the authors demonstrate that Slit inhibition of cell spreading in COS7 cells depends on the receptor endocytosis. A BioID screen for proteins that bind Robo in a slit-dependent manner identified a number of candidate proteins and the authors chose to focus on the APC protein whose association with Robo is down-regulated by Slit. Using a series of in vitro and cell based experiments the authors propose a model in which APC negatively regulates Robo internalization and subsequently impacts receptor signaling. Overall the findings are interesting and many of the experiments are well controlled; however, significant technical and conceptual concerns limit enthusiasm for the manuscript in its current form.

      General- throughout the manuscript the magnification of the cells in the micrographs are too low. I would recommend including insets to more clearly show the observed effects (especially for the localization figure).

      Specific comments

      Figure 1: The effect of Slit on Robo internalization appears to be robust and the transferrin control is welcome. The authors need to do a better job of explaining how exactly they are quantifying the internalized pool, especially given the likely cell to cell variability in the amount of expression of the transfected constructs. Labeling the figure more clearly to indicate what is Scarlet tagged would help and the purpose of the acid-washing procedure should be more clearly explained.

      Figure 2: There seems to be a mismatch in the representative images for the Dyn treatments- both concentrations appear to reduce internalization of Robo R ~ 2 fold, but the images show essentially 0 internalized receptor. (2A and B)

      Figure 3: The analysis of the Robo c-terminal AP binding motifs is a bit confusing. The authors refer to these manipulations as Robo alleles; however, my understanding is that these are over-expressed constructs in stably transfected lines. They are not 'alleles.' It is puzzling how the effects of Slit appear to be restricted to the transfected cells, especially given that all of these cells should be expressing endogenous Robo. Some clarification would be welcome.

      Figure 4: This figure presents the 'validation' of the Robo APC interaction. There are major problems here. First, PLA is not an adequate substitute for biochemical interaction and it does not allow for clear documentation of ligand-dependent effects. To suggest as the authors do that this analysis provides evidence for a multi-protein complex between Robo, APC and clathrin is not legitimate. Furthermore, the nature of the PLA assay and what they are counting is unlear and misleading. In the methods the author's state

      'Interactions were quantified by counting the number of dots per nucleus as well as the intensity of the signal per dot. An increase in intensity is the consequence of a concentration of interactions in the same cellular dots (Gauthier et al., 2015)'

      Surely, we are not to believe that nuclear PLA signals would exist between this transmembrane protein and endocytic machinery.

      The authors should perform co-IP experiments +/- Slit to validate their findings from BioID.

      Figures 5 and 6: These data represent the functional analysis of APC's role in Robo signaling. There are several observations that do not it with the model which states that APC associates with Robo to prevent endocytosis until Slit arrives. For example, this model would predict that loss of APC should lead to an increase in Robo internalization and an increase in Robo dependent inhibition of cell spreading- neither of these predictions match their data.

      Significance

      In their manuscript, Robinson and colleagues explore the role of the APC protein in the regulation of Slit-Robo signaling in mammalian cell culture. In particular, the authors investigate the importance of APC in controlling the endocytosis of Robo and its subsequent signaling. The authors begin by demonstrating that as previously reported in a Drosophila model that Slit induces the internalization of Robo through Clathrin dependent endocytosis and that this effect depends on two AP binding motifs in the Robo c-terminal tail. In a cellular readout for Slit- signaling the authors demonstrate that Slit inhibition of cell spreading in COS7 cells depends on the receptor endocytosis. A BioID screen for proteins that bind Robo in a slit-dependent manner identified a number of candidate proteins and the authors chose to focus on the APC protein whose association with Robo is down-regulated by Slit. Using a series of in vitro and cell based experiments the authors propose a model in which APC negatively regulates Robo internalization and subsequently impacts receptor signaling. Overall the findings are interesting and many of the experiments are well controlled; however, significant technical and conceptual concerns limit enthusiasm for the manuscript in its current form.

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      Referee #2

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      Summary:

      In this paper, the authors sought to identify the mechanism of Slit2-induced hRobo1 internalization and its signaling. They demonstrated that Slit2-induced hRobo1 internalization is regulated by one of the Robo1 C-terminal binding partners, adenomatous polyposis coli (APC). By using various in vitro experiments, the authors have concluded that APC constitutively interacts with hRobo1, and this interaction is disrupted upon the binding of Slit2 to the extracellular domain of hRobo1. They also showed that the dissociation of interaction between APC and hRobo1 is important for clathrin-mediated endocytosis of hRobo1 and subsequent cell morphology. In conclusion, while this study presents intriguing findings, there are notable experimental concerns. In several instances, the authors fail to sufficiently elucidate the experimental setup or provide specific conditions for certain experiments, which may pose challenges for readers in understanding the methodology thoroughly. Also, the labels for the figures can be more accurate and clearly stated.

      Major comments:

      1. As the authors emphasize the role of NSlit2 in Robo1 internalization throughout their manuscript, I suggest authors include "NSlit" in their title. Something like this "Adenomatous polyposis coli (APC) regulates the NSlit2- induced internalization and signaling of the chemo repellent receptor, hRoundabout (ROBO) 1" or maybe a better title.
      2. In addition to transferrin as the control for their internalization studies, have the authors tested the specificity of NSlit-2-induced internalization with other Robo receptors such as Robo2? Does the APC bind to Robo2 also?
      3. The N-Slit group at 0' in Figure 1 b and Figure 2a, the Flag-Robo staining looks very different. Is it because the authors did not use ADAM protease inhibitor in Figure 2a that's why they are seeing more internalized Flag-Robo at 0'? It is not very clear either in the Results or the legend.
      4. Have the authors tested the Surface Robo1 pool in siAPC cells induced with or without N-Slit2?
      5. Does the Robo1 mutated with AP2 binding motifs interact with APC? Have authors performed a Proximity ligation assay with AP2-binding motifs mutated Robo1 and APC?
      6. The resolution of PLA dots in the current version is very low. Authors should include higher magnification pictures for these interactions and also PLA dots channel should be separately represented in addition to the DAPI merged images for better clarity and interpretation.
      7. Do the Slit2 treated cells affect APC mRNA expression? Or does Slit2 only inhibit the interaction between APC and Robo1? Have the authors tested the mRNA expression of APC in slit2-treated and untreated cells?
      8. The authors have tested the effect of Slit2-induced inhibition of cell spreading under different experimental conditions however it is also important to test the cell migration/proliferation rates under control and siAPC conditions with or without Slit2 treatment.
      9. Do authors see the inhibition of Robo1 and Cyfip interactions also in the presence of Slit2 by PLA assay?
      10. Studying the endogenous Robo1 and APC interaction by PLA is good but I suggest authors do standard co-IP assays to visualize these interactions since authors have already generated a variety of general epitope- tagged constructs for both Robo1 and APC. These epitope-specific antibodies that are best suitable for IP are easily available with many antibody companies. This is the first study to suggest that the interaction between Robo1 and APC so the strong biochemistry would have a good impact on the findings.

      Minor comments:

      1. I suggest the authors show the single-channel images of Flag-robo (green) in Figure 2B for a clear visualization of internalized Robo in a cell. With DAPI-merged images, it is hard to specifically visualize Robo in these cells.
      2. In Figure 1C, the Y axis should have a clear indication. Instead of "% internalized" it should be mentioned as "% Internalized Robo1".
      3. I suggest authors to include the simple schematic of the mechanism they are proposing in the manuscript.
      4. The authors should mention the rationale or the function of using the acid wash method for their experimental conditions for a better understanding of the reader.
      5. siRNA-mediated knockdown of specific genes should be correctly denoted in the figure. For example, instead of "CLTC", it should be "siCLTC" for easy understanding. The same correction has to be done in all the figures with siRNA data.

      Referees cross-commenting

      Reviewer 1 comments and suggestions are valid and carry significant weight in improving the manuscript.

      Significance

      Strengths: The manuscript writing is good and the authors have generated a lot of constructs for a thorough understanding of Robo1 internalization events under different conditions. Studying the differential protein interactions with and without Slit2 with the Robo1-Bir*Flag method is convincing.

      Limitations: The representation of figures and their labels, Figure resolution, poor quality, missing important controls and experiments.

      Advance: Not very conceptual

      Audience: Broad and basic research

      My field of expertise: Endocytosis, receptor surface labeling studies, ligand mediated receptor signaling and its effect on axon guidance during embryonic development.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (public review):

      (1) The link between the background in the introduction and the actual study and findings is often tenuous or not clearly explained. A re-working of the intro to better set up and link to the study questions would be beneficial.

      We have rewritten the introduction of the manuscript and clearly stated the study questions we were aiming for:

      In paragraph 1-we have stated clearly that we need to study why ADC type of cervical cancer is more aggressive. (Line 58 - 77)

      In paragraph 2- we have stated clearly that we need to find valuable biomarkers to help diagnose lymph node metastasis, which may compensate the shortage of radiological imaging tools and reduce the rate of misdiagnosis. (Line 78 - 100)

      In paragraph 3- we have stated clearly that HPV negative cases is a special group of cervical cancer and we aim to study its cellular features. (Line 101 - 108)

      In paragraph 4- we have stated clearly that we need to decode cell-to-cell interaction mode in the tumor immune microenvironment of ADC using scRNA-seq. (Line 109 - 123)

      (2) For the sequencing, which kit was used on the Novaseq6000?

      For sequencing, we used the Chromium Controller and Chromium Single Cell 3’Reagent Kits (v3 chemistry CG000183) on the Novaseq6000. We feel sorry for lacking this quite important part and have already add the information in Methods section. (Line 196- 197)

      (3) Additional details are needed for the analysis pipeline. How were batch effects identified/dealt with, what were the precise functions and settings for each step of the analysis, how was clustering performed and how were clusters validated etc. Currently, all that is given is software and sometimes function names which are entirely inadequate to be able to assess the validity of the analysis pipeline. This could alternatively be answered by providing annotated copies of the scripts used for analysis as a supplement.

      We apologize for the inadequacy of descriptions of data analysis process. We have already provided a new part of “data processing” with more details in the Methods section (Line 202 - 221). In addition, we have also provided annotated copies of scripts in the supplementary data as Supplementary Data 1.

      (4) For Cell type annotation, please provide the complete list of "selected gene markers" that were used for annotation.

      We have already added the list of marker genes for cell type annotation in the revised manuscript as Supplementary Table 3.

      (5) No statistics are given for the claims on cell proportion differences throughout the paper (for cell types early, epithelial sub-clusters later, and immune cell subsets further on). This should be a multivariate analysis to account for ADC/SCC, HPV+/- and Early/Late stage.

      We feel sorry for lacking statistics when performing analyses of comparisons. In the revision, we have already used statistic approaches to analyze the differences between each set of group comparison. As a result, the corresponding figures have been revised, accordingly.

      For examle, Fig. 1F, Fig. 2D, Fig. 4E, Fig. 5D, Fig. 6D had been re-analyzed to compare ADC/SCC;Supplementary Fig. 1A, Supplementary Fig. 2A, Supplementary Fig. 4A, Supplementary Fig. 5A, Supplementary Fig. 6A had been re-analyzed to compare HPV+/HPV-; Supplementary Fig. 1B, Supplementary Fig. 2B, Supplementary Fig. 4B, Supplementary Fig. 5B, Supplementary Fig. 6B had been re-analyzed to compare Early/Late stage. All P values have been listed in the figure legends.

      (6) The Y-axis label is missing from the proportion histograms in Figure 2D. In these same panels, the bars change widths on the right side. If these are exclusively in ADC, show it with a 0 bar for SCC, not doubling the width which visually makes them appear more important by taking up more area on the plot.

      We feel sorry for impreciseness when presenting histograms of Fig. 2D and we have also revised other figures with similar mistakes, such as Fig. 1F,  Fig. 5D. As for the width of bars, which is due to output style of data processing, we have already corrected all similar mistakes alongside the whole manuscript, for example, Fig. 2D and Supplementary Fig. 2A-B.

      (7) Throughout the manuscript, informatic predictions (differentiation potential, malignancy score, stemness, and trajectory) are presented as though they're concrete facts rather than the predictions they are. Strong conclusions are drawn on the basis of these predictions which do not have adequate data to support. These conclusions which touch on essentially all of the major claims made in the manuscript would need functional data to validate, or the claims need to be very substantially softened as they lack concrete support. Indeed, the fact that most of the genes examined that were characteristic of a given cluster did not show the expected expression patterns in IHC highlights the fact that such predictions require validation to be able to draw proper inferences.

      Thank you for your insightful comments. As you noted, several conclusions were initially based on bioinformatics predictions. Thus in the revised manuscript, we have rewritten all relevant descriptions in a more softened way, particularly in the paragraph of “epithelial cells” in Results section, as well as the conclusions derived from bioinformatics predictions in other paragraphs throughout the manuscript. We hope our revised descriptions will enhance the precision of our work.

      For example, in paragraph “The sub-clusters of epithelial cells in ADC exhibit elevated stem-like features (from Line 353)”, many over-affirmative disriptions had been re-written in Line 353, 362, 371, 375, 379, 383, 390, 392. From Line 395 to 399, the conclusion had been revised as “The observation of cluster Epi_10_CYSTM1 and its possible specificity to ADC makes us question whether or not it may be related to the aggressiveness of ADC” compared to the previous “This observation may partially indicate that high stemness cluster Epi_10_CYSTM1 is essential for ADC to present more aggressive features”. From Line 400 to 408, conclusions from GO analyses had also been rewritten.

      In paragraph “ADC-specific epithelial cluster-derived gene SLC26A3 is a potential prognostic marker for lymph node metastasis (from Line 422)”, many conclusions based on predictions had been revises, such as Line 424 - 428, Line 439 - 441, Line 451 - 453, Line 455 - 457, Line 458 - 459, Line 471 - 473, Line 478 - 481, Line 484 - 486, Line 489, etc.

      In paragraph “Tumor associated neutrophils (TANs) surrounding ADC tumor area may contribute to the formation of a malignant microenvironment (from Line 536)”, we have changed the descriptions based on bio-infomative predictions, such as Line 560, Line 561, Line 565, Line 566, Line 572, Line 576 - 577, etc.

      In paragraph “Crosstalk among tumor cells, Tregs and neutrophils establishes the immunosuppressive TIME in ADC (from Line 601)”, we have already corrected the all the affirmative descriptions, such as Line 604, Line 612, Line 614, Line 626, Line 628 - 629, Line 641, Line 654 – 655, etc.

      All the changes have also been listed in Revision Notes in detail.

      (8) The cluster Epi_10_CYSTM1 which is the basis for much of the paper is present in a single individual (with a single cell coming from another person), and heavily unconnected from the rest of the epithelial populations. If so much emphasis is placed on it, the existence of this cluster as a true subset of cells requires validation.

      We appreciate this suggestion. We agree that the majority of Epi_10_CYSTM1 cells are derived from sample S7. The fact that we have detected this cluster in only one patient may be due to sampling differences and the inherent heterogeneity of tumor specimens. However, the relatively high number of cells in this cluster from one stage III patient suggests its presence in ADC patients and highlights its potential as a diagnostic marker for clinical staging. To further investigate whether this cluster is generally existing in ADC patients, we have identified and selected candidate genes, such as SLC26A3, ORM1, and ORM2, as representative markers of this cluster, which demonstrated high specificity (as shown in Fig. 3B). We then performed IHC staining on a total of 56 tissue samples, and the results showed positive expressions of these markers in the majority of stage IIIC tumor tissues, confirming the existence of this cell cluster (as shown in Supplementary Fig. 3E). In our revised manuscript, we have included an in-depth discussion of this issue in the seventh paragraph of the Discussion section (From Line 801).

      (9) Claims based on survival analysis of TCGA for Epi_10_CYSTM1 are based on a non-significant p-value, though there is a slight trend in that direction.

      Thank you for your insightful comment. From the data of TCGA survival analysis for Epi_10, we found a not-so-slight trend of difference between groups (with a small P value). As a result, we presented this data and hoped to add more strength to the clinical significance of this cluster. However, this indeed caused controversy because the P value is non-significant. As a result, we have already deleted this data in the revised manuscript.

      (10) The claim "The identification of Epi_10_CYSTM1 as the only cell cluster found in patients with stage IIICp raises the possibility that this cluster may be a potential marker to diagnose patients with lymph node metastasis." This is incorrect according to the sample distributions which clearly show cells from the patient who has EPI_10_CYSTM1 in multiple other clusters. This is then used as justification for SLC26A3 which appears to be associated with associated with late stage, however, in the images SLC26A3 appears to be broadly expressed in later tumours rather than restricted to a minor subset as it should be if it were actually related to the EPI_10_CYSTM1 cluster.

      We feel thankful for this question. The conclusion that “The identification of Epi_10_CYSTM1 as the only cell cluster found in patients with stage IIICp raises the possibility that this cluster may be a potential marker to diagnose patients with lymph node metastasis” has indeed been written too concrete according to the sample distribution. We feel sorry for this and have already corrected the description into “As one of stage IIIC-specific cell clusters, the cluster of Epi_10_CYSTM1, with its representative marker gene SLC26A3, presents potential diagnostic value to predict lymph node metastasis” from Line 478-481.

      However, based on our results, we do think this cluster is a potential diagnostic marker and the hypothesis is right. As for SLC26A3, we have specifically added a new paragraph (from Line 801 - 822) in Discussion section to discuss the rationality and necessity of selecting this gene as our central focus, and the reasons why SLC26A3 should be the representative of cluster Epi_10_CYSTM1. As you noted, SLC26A3 appears to be broadly expressed in later tumors rather than restricted to a minor subset in the images. We apologize for any misunderstanding caused. When presenting the IHC data, we only showed the strongly positive areas of each slide to emphasize the differences. In our revision, we have included whole slide scanning images of the IHC samples, clearly showing that SLC26A3 is restricted to a part of the tumors (Supplementary Fig.9).

      (11) The authors claim that cytotoxic T cells express KRT17, and KRT19. This likely represents a mis-clustering of epithelial cells.

      We apologize for using data without noticing the contamination of T cells with few epithelial cells. We have re-performed quality control to exclude contamination and re-analyzed all data of T cells. In the reviesed manuscript, we have therefore updated completely new data for T cells in both Fig. 4 and Supplementary Fig. 4.

      (12) Multiple claims are made for specific activities based on GO term biological process analysis which while not contradictory to the data, certainly are by no means the only explanation for it, nor directly supported.

      Our initial purpose was to use GO analysis as supports for our conclusions. However, we know these are only claims but not evidence, which is also the problem of our writing techniques as in question (7). Therefore, in our revised manuscript, we have already deleted GO data and descriptions in the paragraphs of “T cell (Fig.4)”(from Line 495) and “B/plasma cell (Fig.6)” (from Line 579), because the predictions are quite irrelevant to our conclusions.

      However, in the sections of “epithelial cell (Fig.2)” (from Line 352) and “neutrophils (Fig.5)” (from Line 536), we retained the GO data and rewrote the conclusions, because these analyses have provided us with valuable information regarding the role of specific cell clusters in ADC progression. Furthermore, our subsequent analyses, such as CellChat, have further validated the accuracy of the findings from the GO analysis. We do think this logically supports the whole storyline of the study.

      Reviewer #2 (public review):

      (1) I believe that many of the proposed conclusions are over-interpretations or unwarranted generalizations of the single-cell analysis. These conclusions are often based on populations in the scRNA-seq data that are described as enriched or specific to a given group of samples (eg. ADC). This conclusion is based on the percentage of cells in that population belonging to the given group; for example, a cluster of cells that dominantly come from ADC. The data includes multiple samples for each group, but statistical approaches are never used to demonstrate the reproducibility of these claims.

      We feel sorry that many of the conclusions have been written in an over-affirmative way but lack profound supporting evidences. In our revision, we have already optimized the writing techniques and re-written all conclusions or descriptions related to only bio-informatic predictions. Moreover, we have performed statistical re-analyses on all data and rearranged the related figures.

      For example, in Line 352, we have changed the sub-title “The sub-clusters of epithelial cells exhibit elevated stem-like features to promote the aggressiveness of ADC” into “The sub-clusters of epithelial cells in ADC exhibit elevated stem-like features”. In this paragraph, many over-affirmative discriptions such as “exclusively”, “significant”, “overwhelmingly”, “remarkably” have been deleted. From Line 486-493, the conclusion of “Moreover, SLC26A3 could be employed as a marker for the Epi_10_CYSTM1 cluster, aiding in the diagnosis of lymph node metastasis to prevent post-surgical upstaging in ADC patients in the future” have been changed into “our results propose that SLC26A3 might be considered as a diagnostic marker to predict lymph node metastasis in ADC patients”. Similar over-affirmative descriptions and conclusions had also been re-written in the other paragraphs, which has been refered to question (7) above.

      (2) This leads to problematic conclusions. For example, the "ADC-specific" Epi_10_CYSTM1 cluster, which is a central focus of the paper, only contains cells from one of the 11 ADC samples and represents only a small fraction of the malignant cells from that sample (Sample 7, Figure 2A). Yet, this population is used to derive SLC26A3 as a potential biomarker. SLC26A3 transcripts were only detected in this small population of cells (none of the other ADC samples), which makes me question the specificity of the IHC staining on the validation cohort.

      We sincerely feel grateful for this question. This is a quite important question as it is also pointed out by reviewer#1 in question (8) above. In the revised manuscript, we have already optimized our descriptions and have added detailed explanation for the importance of SLC26A3 in the Discussion section  (from Line 802 - 823). We agree that the majority of Epi_10_CYSTM1 cells are derived from sample S7. The fact that we detected this cluster in only one patient may be due to sampling differences and the inherent heterogeneity of tumor specimens. However, the relatively high number of cells in this cluster from one stage III patient suggests its presence in ADC and highlights its potential as a diagnostic marker for staging ADC. To further investigate whether this cluster is generally present in ADC patients, we identified and selected candidate genes, such as SLC26A3, ORM1, and ORM2, as representative markers of this cluster, which demonstrated high specificity (as shown in Fig. 3B). We then performed IHC staining on 56 cases of tissue samples, and the results showed positive expression of these markers in the majority of stage III tumor tissues, confirming the existence of this cell cluster (as shown in Supplementary Fig. 3E). In our revised manuscript, we have included an in-depth discussion of this issue in the seventh paragraph of the Discussion section.

      (3) This is compounded by technical aspects of the analysis that hinder interpretation. For example, it is clear that the clustering does not perfectly segregate cell types. In Figures 2B and D, it is evident that C4 and C5 contain mixtures of cell type (eg. half of C4 is EPCAM+/CD3-, the other half EPCAM-/CD3+). These contaminations are carried forward into subclustering and are not addressed. Rather, it is claimed that there is a T cell population that is CD3- and EPCAM+, which does not seem likely.

      Thank you for your insightful comment. This important point is also raised by reviewer#1 above. In the revised manuscript, we have reanalyzed our scRNA-seq data and listed the canonical marker genes for cell type annotation. Most importantly, as for T cells and its sub-clustering, we have performed quality control and re-analyzed all data for T cells, with contamination excluded. In the reviesed manuscript, we have added the re-analyzed data for T cells in both Fig. 4 and Supplementary Fig. 4.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (recommendations for the authors):

      The text would substantially benefit from an editorial revision of language usage.

      We sincerely feel grateful for this suggestion. In our revision, we have conducted language editing and carefully rewritten our manuscript. The changes have been clearly marked in the tracked version of the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Use statistical approaches to claim enrichment/specificity of populations to given groups (ADC, HPV, etc). Analysis packages like Milo for differential abundance testing would be very helpful.

      We feel grateful for this suggestion. In our revision, we have performed statistical analyses for all groups of comparison data. Meanwhile, we have rearranged the figures based on these statistical results, for example, Fig. 1F, Fig. 2D, Fig. 4E, Fig. 5D, Fig. 6D, Supplementary Fig. 1A-B, Supplementary Fig. 2A-B, Supplementary Fig. 4A-B, Supplementary Fig. 5A-B, Supplementary Fig. 6A-B.

      (2) In the subclustering, consider a round of quality control to ensure that all cells are of the cell type they are claimed to be. Contaminant clusters/cells could be filtered out or reassigned. This could be supplemented with an automated annotation approach using cell-type references.

      We feel thankful for this suggestion. As a result, we have provided copies of scripts in the supplementary data to ensure the quality control of cell type annotation.

      (3) An explanation for why SLC26A3 is so rare in the scRNA-seq data, but seemingly common in the IHC staining would be helpful. I am concerned about the specificity of the stain.

      We apologize for lacking adequate explanation of SLC26A3 and cluster Epi_10_CYSTM1. This is a quite crucial question as it has been listed above in question (8) of reviewer #1 and question (2) of reviewer #2 (public review section). In the revised manuscript, we have added intenstive discussion about this question in the seventh paragraph of Disccusion section (from Line 801 - 822). In fact, because of the heterogeneity among different individuals and different tumor regions even within one sample, Epi_10_CYSTM1 seemed to be derived from only one sample. However, the relatively high number of cells in this cluster from one late-stage (stage IIIC) patient suggests its presence in ADC and highlights its potential as a diagnostic marker for staging ADC. Furthermore, we have identified SLC26A3, ORM1 and ORM2 as specific markers of this cluser and performed IHC staining. With a positive expression of these markers, the existence of this cluster has been indirectly proved (as shown in Fig. 3B).

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the current reviews.

      The authors agree with the reviewers that future studies are needed to dissect the mechanisms of eIF3 binding to 3'UTRs and their impact on translation, and the impact of this binding on cellular fate.


      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife Assessment

      This valuable study reveals extensive binding of eukaryotic translation initiation factor 3 (eIF3) to the 3' untranslated regions (UTRs) of efficiently translated mRNAs in human pluripotent stem cell-derived neuronal progenitor cells. The authors provide solid evidence to support their conclusions, although this study may be enhanced by addressing potential biases of techniques employed to study eIF3:mRNA binding and providing additional mechanistic detail. This work will be of significant interest to researchers exploring post-transcriptional regulation of gene expression, including cellular, molecular, and developmental biologists, as well as biochemists.

      We thank the reviewers for their positive views of the results we present, along with the constructive feedback regarding the strengths and weaknesses of our manuscript, with which we generally agree. We acknowledge our results will require a deeper exploration of the molecular mechanisms behind eIF3 interactions with 3'-UTR termini and experiments to identify the molecular partners involved. Additionally, given that NPC differentiation toward mature neurons is a process that takes around 3 weeks, we recognize the importance of examining eIF3-mRNA interactions in NPCs that have undergone differentiation over longer periods than the 2-hr time point selected in this study. Finally, considering the molecular complexity of the 13subunit human eIF3, we agree that a direct comparison between Quick-irCLIP and PAR-CLIP will be highly beneficial and will determine whether different UV crosslinking wavelengths report on different eIF3 molecular interactions. Additional comments are given below to the identified weaknesses.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors perform irCLIP of neuronal progenitor cells to profile eIF3-RNA interactions upon short-term neuronal differentiation. The data shows that eIF3 mostly interacts with 3'-UTRs - specifically, the poly-A signal. There appears to be a general correlation between eIF3 binding to 3'-UTRs and ribosome occupancy, which might suggest that eIF3 binding promotes protein

      Strengths:

      The study provides a wealth of new data on eIF3-mRNA interactions and points to the potential new concept that eIF3-mRNA interactions are polyadenylation-dependent and correlate with ribosome occupancy.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) A main limitation is the correlative nature of the study. Whereas the evidence that eIF3 interacts with 3-UTRs is solid, the biological role of the interactions remains entirely unknown. Similarly, the claim that eIF3 interactions with 3'-UTR termini require polyadenylation but are independent of poly(A) binding proteins lacks support as it solely relies on the absence of observable eIF3 binding to poly-A (-) histone mRNAs and a seeming failure to detect PABP binding to eIF3 by co-immunoprecipitation and Western blotting. In contrast, LC-MS data in Supplementary File 1 show ready co-purification of eIF3 with PABP.

      We agree the molecular mechanisms underlying the crosslinking between eIF3 and the end of mRNA 3’-UTRs remains to be determined. We also agree that the lack of interaction seen between eIF3 and PABP in Westerns, even from HEK293T cells, is a puzzle. The low sequence coverage in the LC-MS data gave us pause about making a strong statement that these represent direct eIF3 interactions, given the similar background levels of some ribosomal proteins.

      (2) Another question concerns the relevance of the cellular model studied. irCLIP is performed on neuronal progenitor cells subjected to neuronal induction for 2 hours. This short-term induction leads to a very modest - perhaps 10% - and very transient 1-hour-long increase in translation, although this is not carefully quantified. The cellular phenotype also does not appear to change and calling the cells treated with differentiation media for 2 hours "differentiated NPCs" seems a bit misleading. Perhaps unsurprisingly, the minor "burst" of translation coincides with minor effects on eIF3-mRNA interactions most of which seem to be driven by mRNA levels. Based on the ~15-fold increase in ID2 mRNA coinciding with a ~5-fold increase in ribosome occupancy (RPF), ID2 TE actually goes down upon neuronal induction.

      We agree that it will be interesting to look at eIF3-mRNA interactions at longer time points after induction of NPC differentiation. However, the pattern of eIF3 crosslinking to the end of 3’-UTRs occurs in both time points reported here, which is likely to be the more general finding in what we present.

      (3) The overlap in eIF3-mRNA interactions identified here and in the authors' previous reports is minimal. Some of the discrepancies may be related to the not well-justified approach for filtering data prior to assessing overlap. Still, the fundamentally different binding patterns - eIF3 mostly interacting with 5'-UTRs in the authors' previous report and other studies versus the strong preference for 3'-UTRs shown here - are striking. In the Discussion, it is speculated that the different methods used - PAR-CLIP versus irCLIP - lead to these fundamental differences. Unfortunately, this is not supported by any data, even though it would be very important for the translation field to learn whether different CLIP methodologies assess very different aspects of eIF3-mRNA interactions.

      We agree the more interesting aspect of what we observe is the difference in location of eIF3 crosslinking, i.e. the end of 3’-UTRs rather than 5’-UTRs or the pan-mRNA pattern we observed in T cells. The reviewer is right that it will be important in the future to compare PAR-CLIP and Quick-irCLIP side-by-side to begin to unravel the differences we observe with the two approaches.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The paper documents the role of eIF3 in translational control during neural progenitor cell (NPC) differentiation. eIF3 predominantly binds to the 3' UTR termini of mRNAs during NPC differentiation, adjacent to the poly(A) tails, and is associated with efficiently translated mRNAs, indicating a role for eIF3 in promoting translation.

      Strengths:

      The manuscript is strong in addressing molecular mechanisms by using a combination of nextgeneration sequencing and crosslinking techniques, thus providing a comprehensive dataset that supports the authors' claims. The manuscript is methodologically sound, with clear experimental designs.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The study could benefit from further exploration into the molecular mechanisms by which eIF3 interacts with 3' UTR termini. While the correlation between eIF3 binding and high translation levels is established, the functionality of these interactions needs validation. The authors should consider including experiments that test whether eIF3 binding sites are necessary for increased translation efficiency using reporter constructs.

      We agree with the reviewer that the molecular mechanism by which eIF3 interacts with the 3’UTR termini remains unclear, along with its biological significance, i.e. how it contributes to translation levels. We think it could be useful to try reporters in, perhaps, HEK293T cells in the future to probe the mechanism in more detail.

      (2) The authors mention that the eIF3 3' UTR termini crosslinking pattern observed in their study was not reported in previous PAR-CLIP studies performed in HEK293T cells (Lee et al., 2015) and Jurkat cells (De Silva et al., 2021). They attribute this difference to the different UV wavelengths used in Quick-irCLIP (254 nm) and PAR-CLIP (365 nm with 4-thiouridine). While the explanation is plausible, it remains a caveat that different UV crosslinking methods may capture different eIF3 modules or binding sites, depending on the chemical propensities of the amino acid-nucleotide crosslinks at each wavelength. Without addressing this caveat in more detail, the authors cannot generalize their findings, and thus, the title of the paper, which suggests a broad role for eIF3, may be misleading. Previous studies have pointed to an enrichment of eIF3 binding at the 5' UTRs, and the divergence in results between studies needs to be more explicitly acknowledged.

      We agree with the reviewer that the two methods of crosslinking will require a more detailed head-to-head comparison in the future. However, we do think the title is justified by the fact that we see crosslinking to the termini of 3’-UTRs across thousands of transcripts in each condition. Furthermore, the 3’-UTR crosslinking is enriched on mRNAs with higher ribosome protected fragment counts (RPF) in differentiated cells, Figure 3F.

      (3) While the manuscript concludes that eIF3's interaction with 3' UTR termini is independent of poly(A)-binding proteins, transient or indirect interactions should be tested using assays such as PLA (Proximity Ligation Assay), which could provide more insights.

      This is a good idea, but would require a substantial effort better suited to a future publication. We think our observations are interesting enough to the field to stimulate future experimentation that we may or may not be most capable of doing in our lab.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript by Mestre-Fos and colleagues, authors have analyzed the involvement of eIF3 binding to mRNA during differentiation of neural progenitor cells (NPC). The authors bring a lot of interesting observations leading to a novel function for eIF3 at the 3'UTR.

      During the translational burst that occurs during NPC differentiation, analysis of eIF3-associated mRNA by Quick-irCLIP reveals the unexpected binding of this initiation factor at the 3'UTR of most mRNA. Further analysis of alternative polyadenylation by APAseq highlights the close proximity of the eIF3-crosslinking position and the poly(A) tail. Furthermore, this interaction is not detected in Poly(A)-less transcripts. Using Riboseq, the authors then attempted to correlate eIF3 binding with the translation efficacy of mRNA, which would suggest a common mechanism of translational control in these cells. These observations indicate that eIF3-binding at the 3'UTR of mRNA, near the poly(A) tail, may participate to the closed-loop model of mRNA translation, bridging 5' and 3', and allowing ribosomes recycling. However, authors failed to detect interactions of eIF3, with either PABP or Paip1 or 40S subunit proteins, which is quite unexpected.

      Strength:

      The well-written manuscript presents an attractive concept regarding the mechanism of eIF3 function at the 3'UTR. Most mRNA in NPC seems to have eIF3 binding at the 3'UTR and only a few at the 5'end where it's commonly thought to bind. In a previous study from the Cate lab, eIF3 was reported to bind to a small region of the 3'UTR of the TCRA and TCRB mRNA, which was responsible for their specific translational stimulation, during T cell activation. Surprisingly in this study, the eIF3 association with mRNA occurs near polyadenylation signals in NPC, independently of cell differentiation status. This compelling evidence suggests a general mechanism of translation control by eIF3 in NPC. This observation brings back the old concept of mRNA circularization with new arguments, independent of PABP and eIF4G interaction. Finally, the discussion adequately describes the potential technical limitations of the present study compared to previous ones by the same group, due to the use of Quick-irCLIP as opposed to the PAR-CLIP/thiouridine.  

      Weaknesses:

      (1) These data were obtained from an unusual cell type, limiting the generalizability of the model.

      We agree that unraveling the mechanism employed by eIF3 at the mRNA 3’-UTR termini might be better studied in a stable cell line rather than in primary cells.

      (2) This study lacks a clear explanation for the increased translation associated with NPC differentiation, as eIF3 binding is observed in both differentiated and undifferentiated NPC. For example, I find a kind of inconsistency between changes in Riboseq density (Figure 3B) and changes in protein synthesis (Figure 1D). Thus, the title overstates a modest correlation between eIF3 binding and important changes in protein synthesis.

      We thank the reviewer for this question. Riboseq data and RNASeq data are not on absolute scales when comparing across cell conditions. They are normalized internally, so increases in for example RPF in Figure 3B are relative to the bulk RPF in a given condition. By contrast, the changes in protein synthesis measured in Figure 1D is closer to an absolute measure of protein synthesis. 

      (3) This is illustrated by the candidate selection that supports this demonstration. Looking at Figure 3B, ID2, and SNAT2 mRNA are not part of the High TE transcripts (in red). In contrast, the increase in mRNA abundance could explain a proportionally increased association with eIF3 as well as with ribosomes. The example of increased protein abundance of these best candidates is overall weak and uncertain.

      We agree that using TE as the criterion for defining increased eIF3 association would not be correct. By “highly translated” we only mean to convey the extent of protein synthesis, i.e. increases in ribosome protected fragments (RPF), rather than the translational efficiency.

      (4) Despite several attempts (chemical and UV cross-linking) to identify eIF3 partners in NPC such as PABP, PAIP1, or proteins from the 40S, the authors could not provide any evidence for such a mechanism consistent with the closed-loop model. Overall, this rather descriptive study lacks mechanistic insight (eIF3 binding partners).

      We agree that it will be important to identify the molecular mechanism used by eIF3 to engage the termini of mRNA 3’-UTRs. Nevertheless, the identification of eIF3 crosslinking to that location in mRNAs is new, and we think will stimulate new experiments in the field.

      (5) Finally, the authors suspect a potential impact of technical improvement provided by QuickirCLIP, that could have been addressed rather than discussed.

      We agree a side-by-side comparison of eIF3 crosslinks captured by PAR-CLIP versus QuickirCLIP will be an important experiment to do. However, NPCs or other primary cells may not be the best system for the comparison. We think using an established cell line might be more informative, to control for effects such as 4-thiouridine toxicity.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) The Western blot signals for SLC38A2 and ID2 are close to the membrane background and little convincing. Size markers are missing.

      We agree these antibodies are not great. They are the best we could find, unfortunately. We have included originals of all western blots and gels as supplementary information. It’s important to note that the Riboseq data for ID2 and SLC38A2 are consistent with the western blots. See Figure 3C and Figure 3–figure supplement 3B.

      (2) Figure 1 - Figure Supplement 1 appears to present data from a single experiment. This is far less than ideal considering the minor differences measured.

      Thanks for the comment. This is a representative experiment showing the early time course. We have added a second experiment with two different treatments that show the same pattern in the puromycin assay, in Figure 1–figure supplement 1.

      (3) Figure 3F: One wonders what this would look like if TE was plotted instead of RPF. Figure 3 - Figure Supplement 4 seems to show something along those lines. However, the data are not mentioned in the main results section are quite unclear. Why are data separated into TE high and low? Doesn't TE high in differentiated cells equal TE low in undifferentiated cells?

      This is an interesting question. Note that in Figure 3B, n=6300 genes show no change in TE upon differentiation, compared to a total of n=2127 that show a change in TE, with most of those changes not very large. We have now replotted Figure 3F comparing irCLIP read counts in 3’-UTRs to RPF read counts, which shows a significant positive correlation, regardless of whether we look at undifferentiated or differentiated NPCs (See Figure 3F and a new Figure 3– figure supplement 4A). We also compare irCLIP reads in 3’-UTRs to TE values, which show no correlation (See Figure 3G and Figure 3–figure supplement 4B).

      Figure 3-figure supplement 4 was actually a response to a previous round of review (at PLOS Biology) to a rather technical question from a reviewer. We think this figure and associated text should be removed. Instead, we now include supplementary tables with the processed RPF and TE values, for reference (Supplemental files 4-6). We omitted these in the original submission when they should have been included. We also abandoned comparing undifferentiated and differentiated NPCs, and instead look directly at irCLIP reads vs. RPFs or TE, regardless of NPC state, as noted above (Figure 3F, G, and Figure 3–figure supplement 4).

      (4) Figure 3C: The data should be plotted on the same y-axis scale. This would make a visual assessment of the differences in mRNA and RFP levels more intuitive.

      Thanks for this suggestion. We have rescaled the plots as requested.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) The quality of the Western blots in several figures is quite poor. Notably, Figure 1C seems to be a composite gel, as each blot appears to come from a different gel. Additionally, in Supplementary Figure 1A, there is only a single data point, yet the authors indicate that this image is representative of multiple assays. The lack of error bars in this figure raises a question vis-a-vis the reproducibility of the experiments.

      Thanks for the comments. We now include all the original gels as supplementary information. As noted above, the antibodies for ID2 and SLC38A2 are not great, we agree. And as we noted above, the Riboseq data for ID2 and SLC38A2 are consistent with the western blots.

      (2) For the top 500 targets of undifferentiated and differentiated NPCs in the Quick-irCLIP assay, the manuscript does not clarify how many targets are common and how many are unique to each condition. This information is important for understanding the extent of overlap and differentiation-specific interactions of eIF3 with mRNAs. Providing this data would strengthen the interpretation of the results.

      There are 449 of the top 500 hits in common between undifferentiated and differentiated NPCs. We have now added this information to the text, to add clarity. 

      (3) The manuscript does not provide detailed percentages or numbers regarding the overlap between iCLIP and APA-Seq peaks. Clarifying this overlap, particularly in terms of how many of the APA sites are also targets of eIF3, would bolster the understanding of how these two datasets converge to support the authors' conclusions.

      This is a difficult calculation to make, due to the fact that APA-Seq reads are generally much longer than the Quick-irCLIP reads. This is why we focused instead on quantifying the percent of Quick-irCLIP peaks (which are more narrow) overlap with predicted polyadenylation sequences, in Figure 2-figure supplement 1.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Perform Quick-irCLIP in HEK293 cells to infer technical limitations and/or to generalize the model. The authors will then compare again eIF3 binding site in Jurkat, HEK293, and NPC.

      This is an experiment we plan to do for a future publication, given that we would want to repeat both Quick-irCLIP and PAR-CLIP at the same time.

      (2) Select mRNA candidates with high or low TE changes and analyze eIF3 binding and RPF density and protein abundance along NPC differentiation to support the role of eIF3 binding in stimulating translation.

      We agree looking at time courses in more depth would be interesting. However, this would require substantial experimentation, which is better suited to a future study. Furthermore, now that we have moved away from comparing undifferentiated NPCs and differentiated NPCs when examining TE and RPF values (Figure 3 and Figure 3–figure supplement 4), we think the results now support a more general mechanism of translation reflected in the irCLIP 3’-UTR vs. RPF correlation, independent of NPC state.

      (3) Analyze the interaction of eIF3 with eIF4G and other known partners. This will really provide an improvement to the manuscript. The lack of interaction between eIF3 and the 40S is quite surprising.

      We agree more work needs to be done on the mechanistic side. These are experiments we think would be best to carry out in a stable cell line in the future, rather than primary cells.

      (4) Perform Oligo-dT pulldown (or cap column if possible) and analyze the relative association of PABP, eIF3, and eIF4F on mRNA in NPC versus HEK293. This will clarify whether this mechanism of mRNA translation is specific to NPC or not.

      Thanks for this suggestion. We are uncertain how it would be possible to deconvolute all the possible ways to interpret results from such an experiment. We agree thinking about ways to study the mechanism will keep us occupied for a while.

      (5) Citations in the text indicate the first author, whereas the references are numbered! 

      Our apologies for this oversight. This was a carryover from previous formatting, and has been fixed.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      (1) In my opinion, the major weakness is the selection of IVs, the same IVs should be used for each exposure, especially when the outcomes (IA, SAH, and uIA) are closely related. The removal of IVs was inconsistent, for example, why was LPA rs10455872 removed for SAH but not for uIA? (significantly more IVs were used for uIA). The authors should provide more details for the justification of the removal of IVs other than only indicating "confounder" in supplementary tables. The authors should also perform additional analyses including all IVs and IVs from other PUFA GWAS.

      We apologized for our negligence. We reconducted a two-sample MR analysis following the removal of rs10455872 from the uIA, which yielded unaltered ORs and 95% confidence intervals. The P-value was once again found to be statistically insignificant. These results demonstrate the robustness of our MR analyses and indicate that this SNP does not exert an influence on the overall results. (see Figure 4)

      For SNP selection, we adhered rigorously to the established Mendelian randomization analysis process for the screening of instrumental variables. "Confounder" is mean that a current explicit influencer that is explicitly associated with the outcome variable. Following the removal of such confounding SNPs, the analysis of heterogeneity and pleiotropy is repeated on several occasions in MR analysis using radical MR, MRPRESSO, IVW-radical and Egger-radical, with each iteration involving the removal of the corresponding anomalous SNPs until all instances of pleiotropy and heterogeneity have been eliminated, it can be observed that the final single-nucleotide polymorphism (SNP) for each group is not identical. Therefore, It can be observed that the final SNPs for each group is not identical.

      (2) In addition, it seems that the SNPs in the FADS locus were driving the MR association, while FADS is a very pleiotropic locus associated with many lipid traits, removing FADS could attenuate the MR effect. The authors should perform a sensitivity analysis to remove this locus.

      Thanks for the reviewer’s suggestion. In our revised manuscript, We reconducted MR analysis of the positive results after the removal of the FADS2 and its SNPs within 500 kb of the FADS2 locus. This analysis demonstrated that there was no significant causal pathogenic association between PUFA and IA, aSAH. This result validated that SNP: rs174564 was a significant factor driving the causal association between PUFAs and CA. (See page 6, line155-157 and Figure 8)

      (3) Instead of removing multiple "confounder" IVs which I think may bias the MR results due to very closely related lipid traits, the authors should perform multivariable MR to identify independent effects of PUFAs to IA, conditioning on other PUFAs and/or other lipids.

      Thanks for the reviewer’s suggestion. In our revised manuscript, we employed MVMR through adjust for HDL cholesterol, LDL cholesterol, total cholesterol and triglycerides, to remove bias from closely related lipid traits. The application of MVMR analysis serves to reinforce the robustness of our conclusions. (See page 6, line151-153 and Figure5-7)

      (4) Colocalization was not well described, the authors should include the colocalization results for each locus in a supplementary table. They also mentioned "a large PP for H4 (PP.H4 above 0.75) strongly supports shared causal variants affecting both gene expression and phenotype". The authors should make sure that the colocalization was performed using the expression data of each gene or using the GWAS summary of each PUFA locus.

      I apologize for our negligence. We have added the detailed results of the COLOC for each locus in the supplementary table. (See supplementary table 6)

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) I suggest the authors consult Borges et al., 2022 (doi: 10.1186/s12916-022-02399-w) for PUFA IV selection, and perform sensitivity analysis based on Borges et al., 2022 IVs and another PUFA GWAS (such as J Kettunen et al., 2016, doi: 10.1038/ncomms11122).

      Thanks for the reviewer’s suggestion. In order to provide further evidence of the robustness of the results of our analyses, we conducted MVMR and a sensitivity analysis after excluding SNPs within 500 kb of the FADS2 locus, as recommended by Borges et al. (2022). (See page 6, line151-157 and Figure 5-8)

      In regard to the article by J. Kettunen et al. (2016), we found that the validation dataset from which the article was sourced was insufficient in terms of sample size and lacked the requisite statistical efficacy to be used for validation purposes.

      (2) The authors justified that colocalization is to determine if "PUFAs are mediators in the hereditary causative route of cerebral aneurysm", which I don't think is the case.

      Colocalization is to determine whether an MR estimate is not confounded by LD.

      I apologize for our incorrect description. We have made careful modification in our revised manuscript, as follows: “There is consistent evidence that PUFAs have a beneficial causal effect on cerebral aneurysm. In order to determine an MR estimate is not confounded by LD, we used COLOC to identify shared causal SNP between PUFAs and cerebral aneurysms”. (See page 7-8, line 215-217)

      (3) Supplementary tables 2-4 were a bit confusing to me, I suggest the authors provide one supplementary table for each exposure.

      Thanks for the reviewer’s suggestion. Supplementary tables 2_1-2_5 shows the exposure data for the five PUFAs associated with IA, supplementary tables 3_1-3_5 shows the exposure data for the five PUFAs associated with aSAH and supplementary tables 4_1-4_5 shows the exposure data for the five PUFAs associated with UIA. Each exposure is represented by a distinct table.

      (4) Figure 1 legend: I can't find multivariable MR in the figure/method.

      I apologize for our negligence. In our revised manuscript, we have added the MVMR methodology. We also have modified Figure 1 and Figure 1 legend. (See Figure 1, Figure 1 legend and page 6, line 151-153)

      (5) LOO analysis was mentioned in methods and results but I could not find the results for LOO.

      I apologize for our negligence. In our revised manuscript, we have described the results of the LOO, as follows: “The leave-one-out plot demonstrates that there is a potentially influential SNP (rs174564) driving the causal link between PUFA and cerebral aneurysm.” (See page 7, line 209-210)

      (6) Finally, the authors should proofread their manuscript as many sentences are difficult to read, such as:

      Line 183: "...MR methods revealed consistency", "However, there was no any causal relationship..."

      Line 200: "For achieve that..."

      I apologize for our incorrect description. We have modified these descriptions in our revised manuscript, as follows: “The results demonstrated consistency in the outcomes and directionality of the various MR methods employed” and “In order to determine an MR estimate is not confounded by LD, we used COLOC to identify shared causal SNP between PUFAs and cerebral aneurysms”. (See page 7, line 187-188 and line 215-217).

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Are there any previous epidemiological studies on the association between PUFA and cerebral aneurysm? It will be helpful to introduce this background.

      Thanks for the reviewer’s suggestion. The epidemiology of PUFA with aneurysm in other sites, such as the abdominal aorta, are described in the Introduction section. Although there is a paucity of large-scale multicenter clinical epidemiological studies examining the relationship between PUFAs and cerebral aneurysms, we are endeavoring to infer a prior association between PUFAs and cerebral aneurysms with the aid of Mendelian randomization analysis.

      (2) The authors performed a leave-one-out analysis but did not explain much about the results. The leave-one-out analysis seems to provide some evidence that some SNP is driving the results, like rs174564 in Supplementary Figure 5-1.

      I apologize for our negligence. In our revised manuscript, we have described the results of the leave-one-out analysis, as follows: “The leave-one-out plot demonstrates that there is a potentially influential SNP (rs174564) driving the causal link between PUFA and cerebral aneurysm”. (See page 7, line209-214)”.

      (3) In the discussion (line 211), the authors mentioned omega-6 fatty acids increased the risk of IA and aSAH, omega-3 fatty acids decreased the risk for IA and aSAH, but omega-6 by omega-3 decreased the risk of IA and aSAH. This seems to be different from the figures.

      I apologize for our incorrect description. We have modified this description in our revised manuscript, as follows: “We demonstrated that the omega-3 fatty acids, DHA and, omega-3-pct causally decreased the risk for IA and aSAH. And omega-6 by omega-3 causally increased the risk of IA and aSAH”. (See page 8, line228-230)

      Minor:

      (4) Some grammar errors need to be checked, such as:

      In line 200, "For achieve that, we tested for shared causative SNPs between PUFAs and cerebral aneurysm using COLOC".

      In line 123, "Fourth, to eliminate unclear, palindromic and associated with known confounding factors (body mass index (McDowell et 125 al., 2018), blood pressure (Sun et al., 2022), type 2 diabetes (Tian et al., 2022), high-density lipoprotein (Huang et al., 2018)) SNPs."

      I apologize for our incorrect description. We have modified these descriptions in our revised manuscript, as follows: “Fourth, remove SNPs that are obscure, palindromic, and linked to recognized confounding variables (body mass index (McDowell et al., 2018), blood pressure (Sun et al., 2022), type 2 diabetes (Tian et al., 2022), high-density lipoprotein (Huang et al., 2018))” and “In order to determine an MR estimate is not confounded by LD, we used COLOC to identify shared causal SNP between PUFAs and cerebral aneurysms”. (See page 5, line 124-127 and page 7 line215-217)

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      The findings of Ziolkowska and colleagues show that a specific projection from the nucleus reuniens of the thalamus (RE) to dorsal CA1 of the hippocampus plays an important role in fear extinction learning in male and female mice. In and of itself, this is not a new finding. Yet, the potential novelty and excitement comes from the authors' identification of structural alterations from RE projecting neurons to the specific stratum lacunosum moleculare subregion of CA1 after learning. The authors use a range of anatomical and functional approaches to demonstrate structural synaptic changes in dorsal CA1 that parallel the necessary role of RE inputs in modulating extinction learning. The significance of these findings was previously hampered by several technical shortcomings in the experimental design and interpretation. The authors adequately addressed some of the design concerns raised in the previous round, along with the interpretive critique that they couldn't localize the timing of effects to consolidation as originally claimed. Nevertheless, the authors provided an inadequate response to the concern regarding their misapplication of Ns and missing controls in one experiment.

      In the previous review, a major methodological weakness in the experimental design involved the widespread misapplication of Ns used for the statistical analyses. Much of the anatomical analyses of structural synaptic changes in the RE-CA1 pathway used N = number of axons (Figs. 1, 2), N = number of dendrites (Figs. 3, 4), and N = number of sections (Fig. 7). In each instance it was recommended that N = animal number should be used. Reasons for this are as follows: this is standard practice in neuroanatomical research; using N = branch/ dendrite/ bouton/ spine number artificially inflates the statistical power and this incorrectly assumes independence of observations; using N = number of sections, etc., doesn't account for imbalances in the number of observations that vary from animal to animal that may skew group results.

      In the authors' response, they generally concurred, but then they followed up with the defense that the number of items was too few in some cases, or absent in others, to permit using N = animal number. While they changed some of their data to N = animal numbers, other aspects of their data remained as-is. The description of the statistics in the figure legend is also dense and difficult to follow in places. Ns should be checked in the legend and figure to make sure they're correct, as at least one error was noted (e.g., see Fig. 2C). Overall, the authors' response falls short of the standard of rigor that helps to reinforce scientific findings from reliability and reproducibility concerns when generating more data to increase Ns (i.e., the number of animals) would have been the better choice.

      Another persistent concern from the previous review is that, in the electron microscopic analyses of dendritic spines (Fig. 5), the authors only compared fear acquisition versus extinction training. One critique was that the lack of inclusion of a naïve control group made it difficult to understand how these structural synaptic changes are occurring relative to baseline. It was also noted that the authors appropriately included naïve controls in other experiments in the paper. In the revised submission the authors simply added in naïve control data to their previous histogram. It is not considered good practice to collect, process, or analyze data one group at a time, as this would be prone to cohort effects or experimental bias. These data should be discarded and the experiment should be run correctly with randomized cases in each group, or instead these data should be eliminated from the report since there is a key control group missing. Again, the nature of the authors' response perpetuates the aforementioned concern that data collection and analysis in this report may fall short of an acceptable standard of rigor.

    2. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      The findings of Ziolkowska and colleagues show that a specific projection from the nucleus reuniens of the thalamus (RE) to dorsal hippocampal CA1 neurons plays an important role in fear extinction learning in male and female mice. In and of itself, this is not a particularly new finding, although the authors' identification of structural alterations from within dorsal CA1 stratum lacunosum moleculare (SLM) as a candidate mechanism for the learning-related plasticity is potentially novel and exciting. The authors use a range of anatomical and functional approaches to demonstrate structural synaptic changes in dorsal CA1 that parallel the necessary role of RE inputs in modulating extinction learning. Yet, the significance of these findings is substantially limited by several technical shortcomings in the experimental design, and the authors' central interpretation. Otherwise, there remain several strengths in the design and interpretation that offset some of these concerns.

      Given that much is already known about the role of RE and hippocampus in modulating fear learning and extinction, it remains unclear whether addressing these concerns would substantially increase the impact of this study beyond the specific area of speciality. Below, several major weaknesses will be highlighted, followed by several miscellaneous comments.

      Methodological:

      (1) One major methodological weakness in the experimental design involves the widespread misapplication of Ns used for the statistical analyses. Much of the anatomical analyses of structural synaptic changes in the RE-CA1 pathway use N = number of axons (Figs. 1, 2), N = number of dendrites (Figs. 3, 4), and N = number of sections (Fig. 7; note that there are 7 figures in total). In every instance, N = animal number should be used. It is unclear which of these results would remain significant if N = animal number were used in each or how many more animals would be required. This is problematic since these data comprise the main evidence for the authors' central conclusion that specific structural synaptic changes are associated with fear extinction learning.

      We do agree with the reviewer that N = animal number is the preferred way to present data in most of our experiments. However, in some experimental groups we observed a very low number of entries. For example, in the 5US group we found RE+/+ spines only in 3 out of 6 analyzed animals. We believe that this observation is not due to technical problems as mCherry virus transduction required to find RE+/+ spines is similar in all experimental groups and we analyzed similar volumes of tissue. While this result still allows the calculation of density of RE+/+ spines per animal it generates no entries for spine area and PSD95 mean gray value if N = animal number. Hence, we decided to use N=animals to calculate spines and boutons densities, and N=dendritic spines/boutons to calculate other spine/bouton parameters. 

      (2) There is a lack of specific information regarding what constitutes learning with respect to behavioral freezing. It is never clearly stated what specific intervals are used over which freezing is measured during acquisition, extinction, and in extinction retrieval tests. Additionally, assessment of freezing during retrieval at 5- and 30-min time points doesn't lay to rest the possibility that there were differences in the decay rate over the 30-min period (also see below).

      We added a detailed description of how learning was assessed.

      ln 125-134: “For assessment of learning we used percent of time spent by animals freezing (% freezing). Freezing behavior was defined as complete lack of movement, except respiration. To assess within-session learning (working memory) we compared pre- and post-US freezing frequency (the first 148 sec vs last 30 sec) during the CFC session (day 1). To assess formation of long-term contextual fear memory, we compared pre-US freezing (day 1) and the first 5 minutes of the Extinction session (day 2). To assess within session contextual fear extinction we ran 2-way ANOVA to assess the effect of time and manipulation on freezing frequency. Freezing data were analyzed in 5-minute bins. To assess formation of long-term contextual fear extinction memory we compared the first 5 minutes of the Extinction session (day 2) and Test session (day 3).”

      As suggested by the reviewer, we also added data for all six 5-minut bins of Extinction sessions.

      (3) A minor-to-moderate methodological weakness concerns the authors' decision to utilize saline injected groups as controls for the chemogenetics experiments (Figs. 5, 6). The correct design is to have a CNO-only group with the same viral procedure sans hM4Di. This concern is partly mitigated by the inclusion of a CNO vs. saline injection control experiment (Fig. 6).

      Figure 5 does not describe a chemogenetic experiment.

      We added new groups with control virus (CNO vs saline) to Figure 6 (now Fig. 6D and H).

      The chemogenetic experiment shown on Figure 7 has all 4 experimental groups (Control vs hM4Di and saline vs CNO).

      (4) In the electron microscopic analyses of dendritic spines (Fig. 5), comparison of only the fear acquisition versus extinction training, and the lack of inclusion of a naïve control group, makes it difficult to understand how these structural synaptic changes are occurring relative to baseline. It is noteworthy that the authors utilize the tripartite design in other anatomical analyses (Fig. 2-4).

      We added data for the Naive mice to Figure 5.

      (5) Interpretation:

      The main interpretive weakness in the study is the authors' claim that their data shows a role for the RE-CA1 pathway in memory consolidation (i.e., see Abstract). This claim is based on the premise that, although RE-CA1 pathway inactivation with CNO treatment 30 min prior to contextual fear extinction did not affect freezing at 5- and 30-min time points relative to saline controls, these rats showed greater freezing when tested on extinction retrieval 24 h thereafter. First, the data do not rule out possible differences in the decay rate of freezing during extinction training due to CNO administration. Next, the fact that CNO is given prior to training still leaves open the possibility that acquisition was affected, even if there were not any frank differences in freezing. Support for this latter possibility derives from the fact that mice tested for extinction retrieval as early as 5 min after extinction training (Fig. 6C) showed the same impairments as mice tested 24 h later (Figs. 6A). Further, all the structural synaptic changes argued to underlie consolidation were based on analysis at a time point immediately following extinction training, which is too early to allow for any long-term changes that would underlie memory consolidation, but instead would confer changes associated with the extinction training event.

      We do agree with the reviewer that our data do not allow us to conclude whether RE-CA1 pathway is involved in acquisition or consolidation of CFE memory. Therefore, we avoid those terms in the manuscript. We just conclude that RE→CA1 participates in the CFE.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Ziółkowska et al. characterize the synaptic mechanisms at the basis of the REdCA1 contribution to the consolidation of fear memory extinction. In particular, they describe a layer specific modulation of RE-dCA1 excitatory synapses modulation associated to contextual fear extinction which is impaired by transient chemogenetic inhibition of this pathway. These results indicate that RE activity-mediated modulation of synaptic morphology contributes to the consolidation of contextual fear extinction

      Strengths:

      The manuscript is well conceived, the statistical analysis is solid and methodology appropriate. The strength of this work is that it nicely builds up on existing literature and provides new molecular insight on a thalamo-hippocampal circuit previously known for its role in fear extinction. In addition, the quantification of pre- and post-synapses is particularly thorough.

      Weaknesses:

      The findings in this paper are well supported by the data more detailed description of the methods is needed.

      (1) In the paragraph Analysis of dCA1 synapses after contextual fear extinction (CFE), more experimental and methodological data should be given in the text:

      - how was PSD95 used for the analysis, what was the difference between RE. Even if Thy1-GFP mice were used in Fig.2, it appears they were not used for bouton size analysis. To improve clarity, I suggest moving panel 2C to Figure 3. It is not clear whether all RE axons were indiscriminately analysed in Fig. 2 or if only the ones displaying colocalization with both PSD95 and GFP were analysed. If GFP was not taken into account here, analysed boutons could reflect synapses onto inhibitory neurons and this potential scenario should be discussed.

      PSD-95 immunostaining in close apposition to boutons was used to identify RE buttons innervating CA1 (Fig 1 and 2). In these cases PSD-95 signal was not quantified. PSD-95 in close apposition to dendritic spines was used as a proxy of PSDs in CA1 (Figure 3, 4 and 7). In these cases we assessed the integrated mean gray value of PSD-95 signal per dendritic spine (Figure 3, 4) or per ROI (Figure 7). This is explained in detail in the section Confocal microscopy and image quantification (ln 149-172).

      GFP signal was not taken into account during boutons analysis. This is explained in the materials and methods section Confocal microscopy and image quantification (ln 149-172).

      We indicate that PSD-95 is a marker of excitatory synapses located both on excitatory and inhibitory neurons.

      Ln 258: RE boutons were identified in SO and SLM as axonal thickenings in close apposition to PSD-95-positive puncta (a synaptic scaffold used as a marker of excitatory synapses located both on excitatory and inhibitory neurons (Kornau et al., 1995; El-Husseini et al., 2000; Chen et al., 2011; Dharmasri et al., 2024).

      We also cite literature demonstrating that RE projects to the hippocampal formation and forms asymmetric synapses with dendritic spines and dendrites, suggesting innervation of excitatory synapses on both excitatory and aspiny inhibitory neurons (ln 673).

      As advised by the reviewer the Figure 2C panel was moved to Figure 3 (now it is Fig 3A).

      (2) in the methods: The volume of intra-hippocampal CNO injections should be indicated. The concentration of 3 uM seems pretty low in comparison with previous studies. CNO source is missing.

      This section has been rewritten to be more clear. The concentration of CNO was chosen based on the previous studies (Stachniak et al., 2014).

      ln 103: “Cannula placement. Mice were anesthetized by inhalation of 3–5% isoflurane (IsoFlo; Abbott Animal Health) in oxygen and positioned in a stereotaxic frame (51503, Stoelting, Wood Dale, IL, USA). Two holes were drilled in the skull, and a double guide cannulae (2 mm apart and 2 mm long; 26GA, Plastics One) was lowered into the holes such that the cannula tip was located over dorsal CA1 area (2 mm posterior to bregma, ±1 mm lateral, and −1.3 mm vertical). Cannulae were kept patent by using 33-gauge internal dummy cannulae (Plastics One). The animals were used in contextual fear conditioning 21 days after the cannulation. Animals received bilateral CNO (3 μM, 0.2 μl per side for 1 min; Tocris Bioscience, Cat. No. 4936) (Stachniak et al., 2014) or saline injections (0.2 μl per side) 30 minutes before Extinction session via intrahippocampal injection cannulae (33-gauge). After the infusion, the cannula was left in place for 30 seconds. The cannula placement was verified by histology, and only data from animals with correct cannula implants were included in statistical analyses.”

      (3) More details of what software/algorithm was used to score freezing should be included.

      Freezing was automatically scored with VideoFreeze™ Software (Med Associates Inc.).

      (4) Antibody dilutions for IHC should be indicated. Secondary antibody incubation time should be indicated.

      The missing information is added.

      ln 144: “Next, sections were incubated in 4°C overnight with primary antibodies directed against PSD-95 (1:500, Millipore, MAB 1598), washed three times in 0.3% Triton X-100 in PBS and incubated in room temperature for 90 minutes with a secondary antibody bound with Alexa Fluor 647 (1:500, Invitrogen, A31571).”

      (5) No statement about code and data availability is present.

      The statements are added.

      ln 785: Row data and the code used for analysis of confocal data is available at OSF (https://osf.io/bnkpx/).

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This paper examined the role of nucleus reuniens (RE) projections to dorsal CA1 neurons in context fear extinction learning. First, they show that RE neurons send excitatory projections to the stratum oriens (SO) and the stratum lacunosum moleculare (SLM), but not the stratum radiatum (SR). After context fear conditioning, the synaptic connections between RE and dCA1 neurons in the SLM (but not the SO) are weakened (reduced bouton and spine density) after mice undergo context fear conditioning. This weakening is reversed by extinction learning, which leads to enhanced synaptic connectivity between RE inputs and dendrites in the SLM. Control experiments demonstrate that the observed changes are due to extinction and not caused by simple exposure to the context. Extinction learning also induced increases in the size (volume and surface area) of the post-synaptic density (PSD) in SLM. To establish the functional role of RE inputs to dCA1, the researchers used an inhibitory DREADD to silence this pathway during extinction learning. They observe that extinction memory (measured 2-hours or 24-hours later) is impaired by this inhibition. Control experiments show that the extinction memory deficit is not simply due to increased freezing caused by inactivation of the pathway or injections of CNO. Inhibiting the RO projection during extinction learning also reduced the levels of PSD-95 protein levels in the spines of dCA1 neurons.

      Strengths:

      Based on their results, the authors conclude that, "the RE→SLM pathway participates in the updating of fearful context value by actively regulating CFE-induced molecular and structural synaptic plasticity in the SLM.". I believe the data are generally consistent with this hypothesis, although there is an important control condition missing from the behavioral experiments.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) A defining feature of extinction learning is that it is context specific (Bouton, 2004). It is expressed where it was learned, but not in other environments. Similarly, it has been shown that internal contexts (or states) also modulate the expression of extinction (Bouton, 1990). For example, if a drug is administered during extinction learning, it can induce a specific internal state. If this state is not present during subsequent testing, the expression of extinction is impaired just as it is when the physical context is altered (Bouton, 2004). It is possible that something similar is happening in Figure 6. In these experiments, CNO is administered to inactivate the RE-dCA1 projection during extinction learning. The authors observe that this manipulation impairs the expression of extinction the next day (or 2-hours later). However, the drug is not given again during the test. Therefore, it is possible that CNO (and/or inactivation of the RE-dCA1 pathway) induces a state change during extinction that is not present during subsequent testing. Based on the literature cited above, this would be expected to disrupt fear extinction as the authors observed. To determine if this alternative explanation is correct, the researchers need to add groups that receive CNO during extinction training and subsequent extinction testing. If the deficits in extinction expression reported in Figure 6 result from a state change, then these groups should not exhibit an impairment. In contrast, if the authors' account is correct, then the expression of extinction should still be disrupted in mice that receive CNO during training and testing.

      We do agree with the reviewer that such an experiment would be interesting. However, it could be also confusing as we could not distinguish whether the possible behavioral effects are related to the state-dependent aspects of CFE or impaired recall of CFE. Importantly, previous studies showed that RE is crucial for extinction recall (Totty et al., 2023). We also show that CFE memory is impaired not only when the animals recall CFE without CNO (day 3) but also with CNO (day 4) (Figure 6C). Moreover, we do not see the effects of CNO on CFE in the control groups (Figure 6D and H). So we believe that it is unlikely that CNO results in state-dependent CFE.

      (2) In their analysis of dCA1 synapses after contextual fear extinction (CFE) (Figure 4), the authors should have compared Ctx and Ctx-Ctx animals against naïve animals (as they did in Figure 3) when comparing 5US and Ext with naïve animals. Otherwise, the authors cannot make the following conclusion; "since changes of SLM synapses were not observed in the animals exposed to the familiar context that was not associated with the USs, our data support the role of the described structural plasticity at the RE→SLM synapses in CFE, rather than in processing contextual information in general.".

      We assume that the key experimental groups to conclude about synaptic plasticity related to particular behavior are the groups that differ just by one factor/experience. For CFE that would be mice sacrificed immediately before and after CFE session (Figure 2 & 3); on the other hand to conclude about the effects of the re-exposure to the neutral context mice sacrificed before and after second exposure to the neutral context are needed (Figure 4). The naive group, as it differs by at least two manipulations from the Ext and Ctx-Ctx groups, is interesting but not crucial in both cases. This group would be necessary if we focused on the memories of FC or novel context. However, these topics are not the main focus of the current manuscript. Still, the naive group is shown on Figures 2 & 3 to check if CFE brings spine parameters to the levels observed in mice with low freezing.

      We have re-written the cited paragraph to be more precise in our conclusions.

      "Overall, our data demonstrate that synapses in all dCA1 strata undergo structural or molecular changes relevant to CFC and/or CFE. However, only in SLM CFE-induced synaptic changes are likely to be directly regulated by RE inputs as they appear on RE+ dendrites and spines. Since such changes of SLM synapses were not observed in the animals re-exposed to the neutral context, our data support the role of the described structural plasticity at the RE→SLM synapses in CFE, rather than in processing contextual information in general."

      (3) In the materials and methods section, the description of cannula placements is confusing and needs to be rewritten.

      This section has been rewritten.

      ln 103: “Cannula placement. Mice were anesthetized by inhalation of 3–5% isoflurane (IsoFlo; Abbott Animal Health) in oxygen and positioned in a stereotaxic frame (51503, Stoelting, Wood Dale, IL, USA). Two holes were drilled in the skull, and a double guide cannulae (2 mm apart and 2 mm long; 26GA, Plastics One) was lowered into the holes such that the cannula tip was located over dorsal CA1 area (2 mm posterior to bregma, ±1 mm lateral, and −1.3 mm vertical). Cannulae were kept patent by using 33-gauge internal dummy cannulae (Plastics One). The animals were used in contextual fear conditioning 21 days after the cannulation. Animals received bilateral CNO (3 μM, 0.2 μl per side for 1 min; Tocris Bioscience, Cat. No. 4936) (Stachniak et al., 2014) or saline injections (0.2 μl per side) 30 minutes before Extinction session via intrahippocampal injection cannulae (33-gauge). After the infusion, the cannula was left in place for 30 seconds. The cannula placement was verified by histology, and only data from animals with correct cannula implants were included in statistical analyses.”

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Other/ Minor:

      In the beginning of the second paragraph on p. 21 of the Results section, it states that "RE-dCA1 has no effect on working memory," although it was not clear what data the authors were referring to support this conclusion.

      We refer there to the changes of freezing behavior within the CFE session. This is explained now.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      No statement about code and data availability is present.

      The statements are added.

      ln 785: “Row data and the code used for analysis of confocal data is available at OSF (https://osf.io/bnkpx/).”

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      The authors are trying to develop a microscopy system that generates data output exceeding the previous systems based on huge objectives. 

      Strengths: 

      They have accomplished building such a system, with a field of view of 1.5x1.0 cm2 and a resolution of up to 1.2 um. They have also demonstrated their system performance on samples such as organoids, brain sections, and embryos. 

      Weaknesses: 

      To be used as a volumetric imaging technique, the authors only showcase the implementation of multi-focal confocal sectioning. On the other hand, most of the real biological samples were acquired under wide-field illumination, and processed with so-called computational sectioning. Despite the claim that it improves the contrast, sometimes I felt that the images were oversharpened and the quantitative nature of these fluorescence images may be perturbed. 

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      This manuscript introduced a volumetric trans-scale imaging system with an ultra-large field-of-view (FOV) that enables simultaneous observation of millions of cellular dynamics in centimeter-wide 3D tissues and embryos. In terms of technique, this paper is just a minor improvement of the authors' previous work, which is a fluorescence imaging system working at visible wavelength region (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-95930-7). 

      Strengths: 

      In this study, the authors enhanced the system's resolution and sensitivity by increasing the numerical aperture (NA) of the lens. Furthermore, they achieved volumetric imaging by integrating optical sectioning and computational sectioning. This study encompasses a broad range of biological applications, including imaging and analysis of organoids, mouse brains, and quail embryos, respectively. Overall, this method is useful and versatile. 

      Weaknesses: 

      The unique application that only can be done by this high-throughput system remains vague. Meanwhile, there are also several outstanding issues in this paper, such as the lack of technical advances, unclear method details, and nonstandardized figures. 

      Here, we address the first part of the Weaknesses concerning the unique application, and will respond to the latter part in the Reply to the Recommendations.

      We are developing 'large field of view with cellular resolution' imaging technique, aiming to apply it to the observation of multicellular systems consisting of a large number of cells. Our proposed optical system has achieved optical performance that enables simultaneous observation of more than one million cells in a single field of view. In this paper, we have succeeded in adding three-dimensional imaging capability while maintaining the size of this two-dimensional field of view. By simultaneously observing the dynamics of a large number of cells, we can reveal spatio-temporal sequences in state transitions (pattern formation, pathogenesis, embryogenesis, etc.) in multicellular systems and discover cells that serve as a starting point. These were mentioned in the 1st and 2nd paragraphs of the Introduction section (Line 48-, 58-) and discussed in the 4th paragraph of Discussion section (Line 398-) of the main text. While our previous work on two-dimensional specimens has shown its validity, the present work demonstrated that temporal changes of multicellular systems in three-dimensional specimens can be observed at the single-cell level.

      Ideally, we aim to achieve the same level of depth observation capability as the FOV size in the lateral direction. However, at present, the penetration depth for living specimens is limited to a few hundred micrometers due to non-transparency, while the lateral FOV size exceeds 1 cm. The current optical performance is well-suited for systems where development occurs within a thin volume but a large area, such as the quail embryo presented in this paper (Fig. 6 in the revised manuscript). In addition to quail embryos, this technique can also be applied to the developmental systems of highly transparent model organisms, such as zebrafish. Furthermore, for chemically cleared specimens, even those thicker than 1.5 mm, as shown in this paper (Fig. 5 in the revised manuscript), can be observed. Besides organs other than the brain, it could also be applied to imaging entire living organisms. However, for observation depths up to 10 mm, such as in the whole mouse brain, a mechanism to compensate for spherical aberration is required, which we consider the next step in our technological development.

      Recommendations for the authors: 

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      (1) I suggest that authors shall re-examine the quantitative nature of their image processing algorithm. Also, I wonder whether there are parameters that could be adjusted, as images in Figure 3D and 4E seem to be oversharpened with potential loss of information. 

      As the reviewer pointed out, we recognized that there was an insufficient explanation of the image processing.

      Therefore, descriptions on the quantitative nature and parameter adjustments have been added to the text (Materials and Methods, Line 552) and the Supplementary File (Fig. S4-5, Note 2), and these have been referenced in the main text. A summary is given below.

      The adjustable parameters in our method include the cutoff frequency of the smoothing filter used in the background light estimation. If the cutoff frequency is too high, the focal plane component will be included in the “background”; if it is too low, background light will remain in the focal plane. The cutoff frequency needs to be optimized within this range. In this optimization, neither the size of the cell itself nor the performance of the optical system was considered; instead, we utilized the concept of independent component analysis (ICA). This approach is taken because the size and structure of cells vary from sample to sample, and the optical properties also vary with wavelength and location, making it impractical to consider each factor for every case. ICA employs a blind separation method, which is based on the principle that individual signals deviate from the normal (Gaussian) distribution, while the superimposition of signals tends to bring the distribution closer to the Gaussian distribution. Several indices have been proposed to quantify the non-Gaussian nature of the distribution, including kurtosis, skewness, negentropy, and mutual information. Among these measures, we empirically found skewness to be the most suitable and robust, and therefore adopted it for our algorithm. The optimal parameters were selected using a subset of the data before applying the calculations of the entire dataset. The determined values were then applied to the entire dataset.

      Regarding the oversharpening, we believe that it rarely occurs in the image data shown in the manuscript. In a case where low-frequency structures and high-frequency structures are mixed in the focal plane, oversharpeninglike effect can occur because of the disappearance of low-frequency structures, which is discussed in Supplementary File (Note 2, Figs. S5D). However, in the case of a sample with nearly uniform spatial frequency, such as the nucleus observed in this study, oversharpening is unlikely to occur by setting appropriate parameters as described above. If it appears that some images are oversharpened in the figures, it is due to the contrast of the image.

      (2) On the other hand, I am curious how a wide-field fluorescence system may reliably extract information from a denselylabeled sample within axial volume of 200 um, as they showed in the mouse brain in Figure 4. Thus I am skeptical regarding the fidelity and completeness of the signals and cells recorded there. It would be ideal if the authors could benchmark their system performance with a two-photon microscope system, which serves as the ground truth. 

      The reviewer's suggestion is reasonable; however, we are unfortunately unable to observe the same sample using a two-photon microscope. Instead, we will explain these differences from a theoretical perspective. Two-photon microscopes used for brain imaging typically employ objective lenses with a numerical aperture (NA) of at least 0.5, allowing for 3D imaging with depth resolution ranging from several micrometers down to sub-micrometer levels. In contrast, our method uses a lens system with NA of 0.25, and the optical configuration (focusing NA, pinhole size) are not optimized for resolution (Note 2 in Supplementary File), thus the longitudinal resolution (FWHM) is about 14 microns (Fig. 3E in the revised manuscript). This difference is significant in the brain imaging, where our method may not fully separate all cells in close proximity along the depth axis, as shown in the bottom panels (xz-plane) of Fig. 5F of the revised manuscript. Nevertheless, we believe that cell nuclei can be accurately detected in this 3D image using appropriate cell detection methods based on deep learning. To support this claim, we conducted cell detection using the state-of-the-art cell detection platform ELEPHANT and incorporated the results into Fig. 5 (Fig. 5G-I). This figure demonstrates that even with the current spatial resolution, accurate detection of cell nuclei is achievable.

      We accordingly added one paragraph (Line 285) in the main text to explain the cell detection method and discuss the results. We also added one section into Materials and Methods for more detail of the cell detection (Line 650).

      In conjunction with the revision, the developer of ELEPHANT (K. Sugawara) has been included as a co-author.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      In my opinion, the following concerns need to be addressed. 

      Major comments: 

      (1) The proposed system's crucial element involves the development of a giant lens system with a numerical aperture (NA) of 0.25. However, a comprehensive introduction and explanation of this significant giant lens system are missing from the manuscript. I strongly suggest that the authors supplement the relevant content to provide a clearer understanding of this integral component. 

      A detailed description of the giant lens system has been added to the main text (Optical Configuration and Performance, Line 83) and the Materials and Methods section (Wide -field imaging system (AMATERAS-2w) configuration, Line 446). A diagram of the lens configuration has also been included in Fig. 1A. In conjunction with these additions, two engineers from SIGMAKOKI CO. LTD., who made significant contributions to the design and manufacturing of the lens system, have been included as co-authors.

      (2) The manuscript introduces a computational sectioning technique, based on iteratively filtering technology. However, the accuracy of this algorithm is not sufficiently validated. 

      It is challenging to discuss accuracy of the processing results compared to the ground truth, because the ground truth is unknown for any of the experiments. Instead, in the Supplementary File (Notes 2, Figures S4-5), we show how the processing results for the measured and simulated data vary with the parameter (cutoff frequency), illustrating the characteristics of our method. The results suggest that by optimally pre-selecting the parameter, it is possible to successfully separate the in-focus and out-of-focus components. This discussion is related to our response to the first recommendation made by the reviewer #1. Please review our response to Reviewer #1 regarding parameter optimization and oversharpening. Here, as an addition, we describe a discussion of the conditions that must be met in order to perform the calculation correctly, as described below (also included in Note 2, Limitation of the computational sectioning).

      To apply this method, certain requirements must be met regarding cutoff spatial frequency and intensity. Regarding cutoff spatial frequency, the algorithm utilizes a low-pass filter with a single cutoff frequency, which can make it challenging to accurately extract structures in the focal plane when structures of varying sizes and shapes are mixed within the sample. This is illustrated by the simulation shown in Fig. S5 and described in Note 2. Conversely, regarding intensity, if the structure’s intensity in the focal plane is weak compared to the Gaussian fluctuations in the background intensity, it becomes difficult to extract the structure. However, intensity fluctuations can be reduced by applying a 3x3 moving average filter to the entire image as a pre-processing step before applying the baseline estimation algorithm. 

      In the experimental data presented in this paper (Figs. 4-6 in the revised manuscript), the spatial frequency issue was not significant because the target structures, which are stained nuclei, appear to be of nearly uniform size in the focal plane. The second issue, related to intensity, is also addressed in Fig. 4, as the signal intensity from the focal plane is sufficient to overcome background light in almost all regions. In the mouse brain example, the use of confocal imaging suppresses background light, allowing the structures in the focal plane to be accurately extracted.

      (3) I didn't see a detailed description of the confocal imaging in the manuscript. If it adheres to conventional confocal technology, then the question arises: what truly constitutes the novel aspect of this technique? 

      The principle of confocal imaging and optics is based on the use of a pinhole array, a system also employed commercially by CrestOptics (X-Light, Italy). Prior to the 1990s, when the configuration utilizing Yokogawa Electric's pinhole array and microlens array pairs became popular, pinhole array-only setups were the norm, and are now considered somewhat traditional. We do not claim novelty in the optical configuration itself, but rather in the design of a confocal optical system tailored for our original large-field (low-magnification) imaging system with a relatively high NA. The pinhole array disk we designed features significantly smaller pinholes and correspondingly tighter pinhole spacing than those used for high-magnification observation purposes. We believe that this unique size and arrangement provides sufficient novelty.

      We have revised the manuscript to clearly emphasize what we believe constitutes the novelty of this technique (paragraphs starting from Line 166 and Line 183). We have also added a discussion on our confocal optical configuration and its spatial resolution in the Supplementary File (Note 1, Fig. S2-3).

      (4) Light-sheet and light-field microscopy, as two emerging 3D microscopy techniques which has theoretically higher throughput than confocal, are not sufficiently introduced in this manuscript. 

      In the previous version, we briefly mentioned light-sheet and light-field microscopy, but we recognized that more detailed explanations were necessary and should be included in the manuscript. We have added several sentences to the main text (Line 159-165). A summary is provided below. 

      Light-sheet microscopy requires the illumination light to propagate over long distances within the specimen, and many applications necessitate the use of transparency-enhanced tissue. Even when the sample is highly transparent, no existing technique can form thin optical sections as long as 1 cm. Therefore, light-sheet microscopy is not an effective method for the thin, wide, three-dimensional objects that are the focus of this project. Regarding light-field microscopy, it features a trade-off where the number of pixels in the two-dimensional plane is reduced in exchange for the ability to record three-dimensional fluorescence distribution information in a single shot. In our imaging system, the pixel spacing is set to be comparable to the Nyquist Frequency to observe as many cells as possible, meaning that no more additional pixels can be sacrificed. Therefore, the light-field microscopy technique is not suitable for our imaging system.

      (5) The fluorescence images of cardiomyocytes derived from human induced pluripotent stem cells (hiPSCs) stained with Rhodamine phalloidin, as presented in Figure 1(E), exhibit suboptimal quality. This may hinder the effective use of the image for biological research. It is imperative that the authors address and explain this aspect, shedding light on the limitations and potential implications of the research findings. 

      We acknowledge the reviewer’s concern regarding the suboptimal quality of the fluorescence image. Upon further examination, we recognized that the resolution and clarity of the image could potentially limit its utility for detailed biological analysis. To address this, we have re-examined the image size and quality to enhance its presentation in Fig. 2C-E in the revised manuscript, which allows for finer structures to be recognized within the large image size.

      Regarding the effective use of the image for biological research, the results shown in the images indicated the capability of observing subcellular structures, such as myofibrils, in cell sheets with a large area, such as myocardial sheets. This would enable us to simultaneously investigate micro-level structures (orientation and density of myofibrils) and macro-level multicellular dynamics (performance of myocardial sheet). We added the above explanation in the manuscript (Line 146). We hope this revision clarifies the quality and utility of the presented image.

      (6) The imaging quality difference between the two techniques shown in Figure 1F, G is relatively small, and the signal distribution difference shown in Figure H is significant, unlike the effects expected from an improvement in resolution. 

      We acknowledge the reviewer's concern regarding the minimal apparent difference in imaging quality between the two images. Upon re-evaluation, we recognized that the original presentation may not have clearly demonstrated the improvements intended by the different techniques. Figure 1H, which showed the line profile of Figs. 1F and G, may have been impacted by the resolution and compression settings of the image file, leading to a less pronounced distinction between the two techniques. To address this, we have enlarged Figs 1F and 1G

      (renumbered as Fig. 2D and 2E in the revised manuscript) and carefully reviewed the resolution and compression ratio to ensure that the differences are more clearly visible. 

      (7) The chart in Figure 2(C) lacks axis titles and numerical labels, making it challenging for readers to comprehend. To enhance reader convenience, it is recommended that the authors incorporate axis titles and numerical labels, providing a clearer context for interpreting the chart. 

      We appreciate the reviewer’s observation regarding the lack of axis titles and numerical labels in the figure. The vertical axis represents fluorescence intensity, which we initially omitted, assuming it was self-evident. However, as the reviewer correctly pointed out, it is crucial to ensure that figures are clear and accessible to readers from diverse backgrounds. In response, we have added the vertical axis title to Fig. 2C (renumbered as Fig. 3C in the revised manuscript) to enhance clarity, while the numerical labels remain omitted as the unit is arbitrary (a.u.). We have also reviewed all other figures in the manuscript to ensure that no similar errors are present.

      (8) In Figures 2(D) and (E), where the authors present the point spread function for quantifying the lateral and axial resolution of the system, I would recommend increasing the number of fluorescent microspheres to more than 10 for statistical averaging. This adjustment would strengthen the persuasiveness of the data and contribute to a more robust analysis. 

      We appreciate the reviewer’s recommendation to increase the number of fluorescent microspheres for statistical averaging in Figs. 2D and E (renumbered as Fig. 3D-E in the revised manuscript). In response, we have revised the graphs to present the point spread function with the statistical mean and standard deviation (SD) of fluorescent images obtained from a large sample size (N = 100), and accordingly revised the main text to mention the statistics (Line 118, Line 132). We also recognized that a similar adjustment was necessary for Figs 1C and D (renumbered as Fig. 2A-B in the revised manuscript), and have accordingly made the same modifications to those figures as well. We believe these changes enhance the robustness and persuasiveness of our data.

      (9) Figure 4(C) visually represents the characteristic 3D structures of several regions. However, discerning the 3D structural information in the images poses a challenge. To address this issue, I recommend that the authors optimize the 3D visualization to improve clarity and facilitate a more effective interpretation of the depicted structures. 

      We appreciate the reviewer’s suggestion regarding the challenges in discerning the 3D structural information in Fig. 4C. To address this, we have added representative images from the xy-plane and xz-plane of the cortex, medial habenula, and choroid plexus (Fig. 5G-I) in the revised manuscript. These additions provide a clearer visualization of the 3D distribution in each region, making it easier for readers to interpret the structures. Additionally, we have overlaid the results of deep-learning based cell detection on these images, further enhancing the visibility of the cells. This adjustment also aligns with our response to Reviewer #1's second comment.

      Minor comments: 

      (1) The labelling of ROI is missing in Figure 1(e). 

      We appreciate the reviewer’s observation regarding the missing labeling of the ROI in Fig. 1E. Upon review, we confirmed that the ROI was indeed labeled with a white square in the previous manuscript; however, it was difficult to discern due to its small size and the black-and-white contrast. To improve visibility, we have recolored the square in magenta, ensuring that it stands out more clearly in the figure (Fig. 2C in the revised manuscript).

      (2) The subfigure order and labeling in Fig. 1 and Fig. 2 are not consistent.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s attention to the subfigure order and labeling in Fig. 1 and 2 (Fig. 1-3 in the revised manuscript). To accommodate subfigures of varying sizes without leaving gaps, we arranged the subfigures in a non-sequential order. However, we have ensured that the text refers to the figures in the correct order. We acknowledge the importance of consistency and will work with the editorial team to explore the best way to present the figures while maintaining clarity and alignment with standard practices.

      (3) Figure 1B reappears in Figure 2.  

      We appreciate the reviewer’s observation regarding the repetition of Figure 1B in Figure 2. While the central part of the optical system (custom lens system) is common to both figures, the illumination system, pinhole array disk, and detection optics for the confocal set up differ. To provide a complete understanding of the optical system, we opted to include the full diagram in Fig. 2B (renumbered as Fig. 3B in the revised manuscript). We considered highlighting only the different components, but we felt that doing so might complicate the reader’s comprehension of the overall system. Therefore, we chose to include the common elements twice to ensure clarity.

    1. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors study temporal summation of caged EPSPs in dendrite-targeting hippocampal CA1 interneurons. The data indicate non-linear summation, which is larger in dendrites of NDNF-expressing neurogliaform cells versus OLM cells. However, the underlying mechanisms are largely unclear.

      Strengths:

      Synaptic integration in dendrites of cortical GABAergic interneurons is important and still poorly investigated. Focal 2-photon uncaging of glutamate is a nice and detailed method to study temporal summation of small potentials in dendritic segments. 2P calcium imaging is a powerful method to potentially disentangle dendritic signal processing in interneuron dendrites.

      Weaknesses:

      Due to several experimental limitations of the study including a relatively low number of recorded dendrites, lack of voltage-clamp recordings, lack of NMDA-dependent calcium signals in OLM cells and lack of wash-out during pharmacological experiments (AP5-application), the mechanistic insights are limited.

      (1) NMDA-receptor signalling in NDNF-IN. The authors nicely show that temporal summation in dendrites of NDNF-INs is to a certain extent non-linear. Pharmacology with AP5 hints towards contribution of NMDA receptors. However, the authors report that the non-linearity in not significantly dependent on EPSP amplitude (Fig. S2), which should be the case if NMDA-receptors are involved. Unfortunately, there are no voltage-clamp data showing NMDA and AMPA currents, potentially providing a mechanistic explanation for the non-linear summation.

      (2) Recovery of drug effect. Pharmacological application of AP5 is the only argument for the involvement of NMDA receptors. However, as long-lasting experiments were apparently difficult to obtain, there is no washout-data presented - only drug effect versus baseline. For all the other drugs (TTX, Nimodipine, CPA) recordings were even shorter, lacking a baseline recording. Thus, it remains open to what extent the AP5-effect might be affected by rundown of receptors or channels during whole-cell recordings or beginning phototoxicity.

      (3) Nonlinear EPSP summation in OLM-IN. The authors do similar experiments in dendrite-targeting OLM-INs and show that the non-linear summation is smaller than in NDNF cells. The reason for this remains unclear. The diameter of proximal dendrites in OLM cells is larger than the diameter in NDNF cells. However, there is probably also an important role of synapse density and glutamate receptor density, which was shown to be very low in proximal dendrites of OLM cells and strongly increase with distance (Guirado et al. 2014, Cerebral Cortex 24:3014-24, Gramuntell et al. 2021, Front Aging Neurosci 13:782737). Therefore, it would have been helpful to see experiments quantifying synapse density (counting spines, PSD95-puncta, ...) and show how this density compares with non-linearity in the analyzed NDNF and OLM dendrites.

      (4) NMDA in OLM-IN. Similar to the NDNF cells, the authors argue for an involvement of NMDA receptors in OLM cells, based on bath-application of AP5 (Fig. 8). Again, there seems to be no significant dependence on EPSP amplitude (Fig. S3). Even more remarkable, the authors claim that there is no dendritic calcium increase after activation of NMDA receptors without showing data. Therefore, it remains unclear whether the calcium signals are just below detection threshold, or whether the non-linearity depends on other calcium-impermeable channels and receptors. To understand this phenomenon different calcium sensors, different Ca2+/Mg2+ concentrations or voltage-clamp data would have helped.

    1. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      HIV-1 infection induces CPSF6 aggregates in the nucleus that contain the viral protein CA. The study of the functions and composition of these nuclear aggregates have raised considerable interest in the field, and they have emerged as sites in which reverse transcription is completed and in the proximity of which viral DNA becomes integrated. In this work, the authors have mutated several regions of the CPSF6 protein to identify the domains important for nuclear aggregation, in addition to the already-known FG region; they have characterized the kinetics of fusion between CPSF6 aggregates and SC35 nuclear speckles and have determined the role of two nuclear speckle components in this process (SRRM2, SUN2).

      Strengths:

      The work examines systematically the domains of CPSF6 of importance for nuclear aggregate formation in an elegant manner in which these mutants complement an otherwise CPSF6-KO cell line. In addition, this work evidences a novel role for the protein SRRM2 in HIV-induced aggregate formation, overall advancing our comprehension of the components required for their formation and regulation.

      Weaknesses:

      Some of the results presented in this manuscript, in particular the kinetics of fusion between CPSF6-aggregates and SC35 speckles have been published before (PMID: 32665593; 32997983).

      The observations of the different effects of CPSF6 mutants, as well as SRRM2/SUN2 silencing experiments are not complemented by infection data which would have linked morphological changes in nuclear aggregates to function during viral infection. More importantly, these functional data could have helped stratify otherwise similar morphological appearances in CPSF6 aggregates.

      Overall, the results could be presented in a more concise and ordered manner to help focus the attention of the reader on the most important issues. Most of the figures extend to 3-4 different pages and some information could be clearly either aggregated or moved to supplementary data.

    2. Author response:

      We would like to extend our sincere thanks to you and reviewers at eLife for their thoughtful handling of our manuscript and their valuable feedback, which will greatly improve our study.

      We are committed to performing the additional experiments as recommended by the reviewers. However, we would like to clarify our study's focus. 

      The novelty of our study lies in the highlights of our manuscript:

      • The formation of HIV-induced CPSF6 puncta is critical for restoring HIV-1 nuclear reverse transcription (RT).

      • CPSF6 protein lacking the FG peptide cannot bind to the viral core, thereby failing to form HIVinduced CPSF6 puncta.

      • The FG peptide, rather than low-complexity regions (LCRs) or the mixed charge domains (MCDs) of the CPSF6 protein, drives the formation of HIV-induced CPSF6 puncta.

      • HIV-induced CPSF6 puncta form individually and later fuse with nuclear speckles (NS) via the intrinsically disordered region (IDR) of SRRM2.

      By focusing on these processes, we believe our study provides a critical perspective on the molecular interactions that mediate the formation of HIV-induced CPSF6 puncta and broadens the understanding of how HIV manipulates host nuclear architecture.

      Public Reviews: 

      Reviewer #1 (Public review): 

      In recent years, our understanding of the nuclear steps of the HIV-1 life cycle has made significant advances. It has emerged that HIV-1 completes reverse transcription in the nucleus and that the host factor CPSF6 forms condensates around the viral capsid. The precise function of these CPSF6 condensates is under investigation, but it is clear that the HIV-1 capsid protein is required for their formation. This study by Tomasini et al. investigates the genesis of the CPSF6 condensates induced by HIV-1 capsid, what other co-factors may be required, and their relationship with nuclear speckels (NS). The authors show that disruption of the condensates by the drug PF74, added post-nuclear entry, blocks HIV-1 infection, which supports their functional role. They generated CPSF6 KO THP-1 cell lines, in which they expressed exogenous CPSF6 constructs to map by microscopy and pull down assays of the regions critical for the formation of condensates. This approach revealed that the LCR region of CPSF6 is required for capsid binding but not for condensates whereas the FG region is essential for both. Using SON and SRRM2 as markers of NS, the authors show that CPSF6 condensates precede their merging with NS but that depletion of SRRM2, or SRRM2 lacking the IDR domain, delays the genesis of condensates, which are also smaller. 

      The study is interesting and well conducted and defines some characteristics of the CPSF6-HIV-1 condensates. Their results on the NS are valuable. The data presented are convincing. 

      I have two main concerns. Firstly, the functional outcome of the various protein mutants and KOs is not evaluated. Although Figure 1 shows that disruption of the CPSF6 puncta by PF74 impairs HIV-1 infection, it is not clear if HIV-1 infection is at all affected by expression of the mutant CPSF6 forms (and SRRM2 mutants) or KO/KD of the various host factors. The cell lines are available, so it should be possible to measure HIV-1 infection and reverse transcription. Secondly, the authors have not assessed if the effects observed on the NS impact HIV-1 gene expression, which would be interesting to know given that NS are sites of highly active gene transcription. With the reagents at hand, it should be possible to investigate this too. 

      We thank the reviewer for her/his valuable feedback on our manuscript. We are pleased to see her/his appreciation of our results, and we will do our utmost to address the highlighted points to further improve our work.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review): 

      Summary: 

      HIV-1 infection induces CPSF6 aggregates in the nucleus that contain the viral protein CA. The study of the functions and composition of these nuclear aggregates have raised considerable interest in the field, and they have emerged as sites in which reverse transcription is completed and in the proximity of which viral DNA becomes integrated. In this work, the authors have mutated several regions of the CPSF6 protein to identify the domains important for nuclear aggregation, in addition to the alreadyknown FG region; they have characterized the kinetics of fusion between CPSF6 aggregates and SC35 nuclear speckles and have determined the role of two nuclear speckle components in this process (SRRM2, SUN2). 

      Strengths: 

      The work examines systematically the domains of CPSF6 of importance for nuclear aggregate formation in an elegant manner in which these mutants complement an otherwise CPSF6-KO cell line. In addition, this work evidences a novel role for the protein SRRM2 in HIV-induced aggregate formation, overall advancing our comprehension of the components required for their formation and regulation. 

      Weaknesses: 

      Some of the results presented in this manuscript, in particular the kinetics of fusion between CPSF6aggregates and SC35 speckles have been published before (PMID: 32665593; 32997983). 

      The observations of the different effects of CPSF6 mutants, as well as SRRM2/SUN2 silencing experiments are not complemented by infection data which would have linked morphological changes in nuclear aggregates to function during viral infection. More importantly, these functional data could have helped stratify otherwise similar morphological appearances in CPSF6 aggregates. 

      Overall, the results could be presented in a more concise and ordered manner to help focus the attention of the reader on the most important issues. Most of the figures extend to 3-4 different pages and some information could be clearly either aggregated or moved to supplementary data. 

      First, we thank the reviewer for her/his appreciation of our study and to give to us the opportunity to better explain our results and to improve our manuscript. We appreciate the reviewer’s positive feedback on our study, and we will do our best to address her/his concerns. In the meantime, we would like to clarify the focus of our study. Our research does not aim to demonstrate an association between CPSF6 condensates (we use the term "condensates" rather than "aggregates," as aggregates are generally non-dynamic (Alberti & Hyman, 2021; Banani et al., 2017), and our work specifically examines the dynamic behavior of CPSF6 during infection, as shown in Scoca et al., JMCB 2022) and SC35 nuclear speckles. This association has already been established in previous studies, as noted in the manuscript.

      About the point highlighted by the reviewer: "Kinetics of fusion between CPSF6-aggregates and SC35 speckles have been published before (PMID: 32665593; 32997983)."

      Our study differs from prior work PMID 32665593 because we utilize a full-length HIV genome and we did not follow the integrase (IN) fluorescence in trans and its association with CPSF6 but we specifically assess if CPSF6 clusters form in the nucleus independently of NS factors and next to fuse with them. In the current study we evaluated the dynamics of formation of CPSF6/NS puncta, which it has not been explored before. Given this focus, we believe that our work offers a novel perspective on the molecular interactions that facilitate HIV / CPSF6-NS fusion.

      For better clarity, we would like to specify that our study focuses on the role of SON, a scaffold factor of nuclear speckles, rather than SUN2 (SUN domain-containing protein 2), which is a component of the LINC (Linker of Nucleoskeleton and Cytoskeleton) complex.

      As suggested by the reviewer, we will keep key information in the main figure and move additional details to the supplementary material.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review): 

      In this study, the authors investigate the requirements for the formation of CPSF6 puncta induced by HIV-1 under a high multiplicity of infection conditions. Not surprisingly, they observe that mutation of the Phe-Gly (FG) repeat responsible for CPSF6 binding to the incoming HIV-1 capsid abrogates CPSF6 punctum formation. Perhaps more interestingly, they show that the removal of other domains of CPSF6, including the mixed-charge domain (MCD), does not affect the formation of HIV-1-induced CPSF6 puncta. The authors also present data suggesting that CPSF6 puncta form individual before fusing with nuclear speckles (NSs) and that the fusion of CPSF6 puncta to NSs requires the intrinsically disordered region (IDR) of the NS component SRRM2. While the study presents some interesting findings, there are some technical issues that need to be addressed and the amount of new information is somewhat limited. Also, the authors' finding that deletion of the CPSF6 MCD does not affect the formation of HIV-1-induced CPSF6 puncta contradicts recent findings of Jang et al. (doi.org/10.1093/nar/gkae769). 

      We thank the reviewer for her/his thoughtful feedback and the opportunity to elaborate on why our findings provide a distinct perspective compared to those of Jang et al. (doi.org/10.1093/nar/gkae769), while aligning with the results of Rohlfes et al. (doi.org/10.1101/2024.06.20.599834).

      One potential reason for the differences between our findings and those of Jang et al. could be the choice of experimental systems. Jang et al. conducted their study in HEK293T cells with CPSF6 knockouts, as described in Sowd et al., 2016 (doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1524213113). In contrast, our work focused on macrophage-like THP-1 cells, which share closer characteristics with HIV-1’s natural target cells. 

      Our approach utilized a complete CPSF6 knockout in THP-1 cells, enabling us to reintroduce untagged versions of CPSF6, such as wild-type and deletion mutants, to avoid potential artifacts from tagging. Jang et al. employed HA-tagged CPSF6 constructs, which may lead to subtle differences in experimental outcomes due to the presence of the tag.

      Finally, our investigation into the IDR of SRRM2 relied on CRISPR-PAINT to generate targeted deletions directly in the endogenous gene (Lester et al., 2021, DOI: 10.1016/j.neuron.2021.03.026). This approach provided a native context for studying SRRM2’s role.

      We will incorporate these clarifications into the discussion section of the revised manuscript.

    1. effort traps, 努力陷阱。

      1.学校和生活环境经常促使参与者为摆脱贫困和实现长期目标而过度努力。而事实证明,参与者的努力不仅徒劳无功,反而适得其反,使它们继续承担难以承受的工作量,到了无可挽回的地步,导致精疲力竭和失败。

      1. 努力陷阱是一种以前未被认识到的社会再生产机制,它是一种结构化的方式。

      2. 来自低收入家庭、雄心勃勃的年轻人可能会失败,但这并不是因为他们没有尽最大努力,而恰恰是因为他们尽了最大努力。

    1. Note: This response was posted by the corresponding author to Review Commons. The content has not been altered except for formatting.

      Learn more at Review Commons


      Reply to the reviewers

      Reviewer #1 (Evidence, reproducibility____,____ and clarity)

      This manuscript by Tsai et al. shows that phage resistance mutations (LPS truncation) confer a cost during interbacterial competition. The authors show that various phage resistant mutants of S. enterica are inhibited by E. cloacae in a contact-dependent manner (on a solid surface but not in liquid). Further experiments showed that this inhibition of S. enterica was mediated by T6SS in E. cloacae. The authors then dissect which parts of the LPS are required for resistance against T6SS attacks and show that a similar resistance is conferred against T6SS of B. thailandensis and C. rodentium. Moreover, the authors show that enzymatic degradation of LPS by a phage enzyme can also increase sensitivity to T6SS (including when such enzymes are on phage particles). Finally, the authors suggest that the change in the thickness of the LPS surface layer could be the reason for changes in T6SS susceptibility. Overall, the manuscript is very well-written. The experiments and controls are explained in sufficient detail and in a logical order. The figures are clear and easy to navigate. The findings are very interesting and important for the T6SS field but also for general understanding how different evolutionary pressures combine and influence each other. I believe that this manuscript will initiate further research in this direction.

      • We thank the reviewer for their positive remarks on our manuscript and the valuable suggestions for its improvement. Major comments

      The only major point that I would like to raise is that I am not generally convinced that the 2 nm difference in the thickness of LPS is the main reason for the observed differences in T6SS-mediated killing of S. enterica. Based on what we know about T6SS mode of action, we expect that it is potentially pushing effectors by up to several hundreds of nanometers. Therefore, the change in the LPS thickness by a few nanometers (as measured by AFM) seems insufficient to provide enough spacing between the attacker and the prey to significantly decrease T6SS effector delivery. While it is clear that understanding the exact reason for the LPS mediated resistance is beyond the scope of this manuscript, I would suggest that the authors consider the fact that T6SS is known to deliver proteins even to the cytoplasm of target gram-negative cells and discuss the mode of action of the machine in the context of their finding. If the T6SS was drawn to scale in the model figure, it would become apparent that 2 nm change in the distance between two cells has probably no major impact on killing by T6SS and the actual reason for the observed phenotype is likely more complicated than what is proposed.

      We appreciate the reviewer's comments and acknowledge that our manuscript leaves open questions regarding the exact mechanisms underlying LPS-mediated resistance. We have now moderated the Discussion in our revised manuscript to reflect the complexity of this phenomenon (Lines 410-423). Although we agree that the nanometer difference in LPS thickness may not fully explain the observed protective phenotype, we believe it remains a plausible contributing factor that is worth considering.

      To fully understand how LPS influences T6SS effector delivery, future studies will need to address key mechanistic questions regarding the T6SS injection process. For example, 1) how deeply does the T6SS apparatus penetrate the target Gram-negative cells during injection; 2) what is the magnitude of the injection force generated by the T6SS; and 3) does the structural integrity of the T6SS apparatus remain intact throughout and after contraction? While it is well documented that some T6SS effectors act in the cytosol of target cells, there is evidence to suggest that cytosolic effectors are initially delivered into the periplasm and subsequently translocated into the cytosol for intoxication1,2. Furthermore, although contraction of the T6SS apparatus occurs within milliseconds3,4, this rapid action does not preclude the possibility that the injection force could be influenced by the thickness of the LPS layer. In addition, the stability of T6SS structural or delivered proteins-such as PAAR, VgrG, and Hcp-within the delivery complex might be compromised upon encountering physical barriers such as the LPS layer and the outer membrane of target cells. These potential interactions could affect the efficiency of effector delivery, leading to reduced competitiveness during interbacterial antagonism, as shown in our study.

      • We appreciate the reviewer's suggestions and acknowledge that the precise reasons for LPS-mediated resistance likely involve a combination of factors beyond those proposed here. We are actively pursuing these questions as part of an ongoing, long-term effort to better elucidate the mechanisms of T6SS action. Minor comments

      Specify which T6SS of B. thailandensis was tested.

      • We now cite studies by Schwarz, S., et al., 20105 and LeRoux, M., et al., 20156, from which we used the tssM (BTH_I2954) gene deletion strain abrogating the T6SS-1 of the B. thailandensis E264 (Line 234, Supplementary Table 1). Use a different naming of the two strains used in competition assays than "donor" and "recipient".

      • Thank you for this suggestion. In the revised manuscript, we have replaced the terms "donor" and "recipient" with "attacker" and "prey" for clarity. This change has been applied to the text (Lines 441, and 649-667) and to revised Figures 2c-h, Figures 3b, d, g, i, j, Figures 4f, g, Figures 5b, e, g, h, Supplementary Figures 3d-f, and Supplementary Figures 4b-d. Indicate in the material and methods ODs of bacterial mixtures used in the "Bacterial competition assays".

      • We apologize for this oversight. The ODs of bacterial mixtures used in the "Bacterial competition assays" have now been specified in the revised Methods section (Line 6____51). Reviewer #1 (Significance)

      This manuscript is interesting for researchers who study T6SS, phage predation and other evolutionary pressures shaping bacterial interactions. The work provides new and interesting insights. My expertise in LPS biology is limited.

      • We sincerely appreciate the reviewer's interest in and support of our study. Reviewer #____2____ (Evidence, reproducibility____,____ and clarity)

      This work investigates the fitness trade-offs in Salmonella enterica resistant to phages. The authors performed co-culture experiments with S. enterica, E. coli, and E. cloacae and found that phage-resistant S. enterica strains displayed reduced fitness in the presence of E. cloacae. Further experiments demonstrated that phage-resistant S. enterica strains were more susceptible to the type VI secretion system (T6SS) of E. cloacae. The authors then examined the role of the O-antigen of lipopolysaccharide (LPS) in T6SS-mediated interbacterial antagonism. By constructing S. enterica mutants with varying O-antigen chain lengths, the authors demonstrated that the O-antigen protects S. enterica from T6SS attack. They then demonstrated that the O-antigen-deficient S. enterica, E. coli, and C. rodentium strains were more susceptible to T6SS attack by E. cloacae. Finally, the authors showed that phage tail spike proteins (TSPs) with endoglycosidase activity could cleave the bacterial O-antigen, thereby increasing susceptibility to T6SS attack.

      The study is well-designed and the experiments are well-executed. The findings are significant and have implications for the understanding of microbial community dynamics.

      • We thank the reviewer for their positive comments regarding our original submission. Major comments

      While the study elegantly demonstrates the link between phage resistance, LPS structure, and T6SS susceptibility, we must remember that these LPS-defective strains are likely at a significant disadvantage in real-world environments without the influence of competing bacteria. Whether it's the gut or external environments, Salmonella needs its LPS for protection against a myriad of host and environmental factors. It seems a bit redundant for T6SS mediated antagonism to select for LPS structures when those structures are essential for bacterial survival outside of this very specific context. It would benefit some discussion about the likelihood of these phage-resistant, LPS-defective strains actually persisting and competing effectively in a more natural setting.

      • We thank the reviewer for their insightful comments and appreciate the opportunity to clarify this point. We agree that LPS-defective bacterial strains face significant disadvantages in natural environments, where they must contend with various host and environmental stresses. Consequently, we did not intend to suggest that T6SS-mediated antagonism is the primary driving force in selecting specific LPS structures. Rather, our study highlights an additional role for LPS during interbacterial interactions, complementing its well-established functions. This notion aligns with the hypotheses proposed in prior studies7-9. The reviewer's comments raise an intriguing question about the essentiality of LPS in Gram-negative bacteria under natural conditions. During our revision process, we identified several examples in the literature demonstrating that LPS may not always be indispensable. For instance, LPS-depleted Neisseria meningitidis strains with an early block in lipid A biosynthesis have been shown to remain viable10,11. These strains may possess adaptive advantages under specific circumstances12. Similarly, some pathogenic bacteria produce truncated LPS structures lacking O-antigen or introduce modified LPS to evade host immune responses13. Additionally, evolutionary pressures, such as phage predation, often drive mutations in O-antigen biosynthesis pathways, resulting in alterations to or an absence of O-antigen14. Furthermore, recent studies have also indicated that trade-offs between abiotic and biotic stresses can influence LPS integrity. For instance, LPS-deficient strains may exhibit selective advantages in extreme environments15,16. These findings underscore the context-dependent nature of LPS functionality and its potential dispensability in certain ecological niches.We sincerely appreciate the reviewer's thought-provoking comments. Our current study aims to provide evidence for the role of interbacterial antagonism as an additional factor influencing LPS integrity. However, we did not mean to overstate the contribution of this mechanism. Instead, we only seek to contribute to a broader understanding of the multifaceted functions of LPS in bacterial survival and adaptation. We have modified the Discussion in our revised manuscript to clarify this idea (Lines 453-466). Minor comments

      Figure 5 could be more effective is panels b and c are together

      • We appreciate this suggestion. We have revised the manuscript accordingly, so panels b and c have been combined in revised Figure 5, __and the respective figure legends have been modified for improved clarity (__Lines 810-823).

      69 Authors should define mucoid

      • The term "mucoid" has now been defined in the revised manuscript (Lines 69-70).

      155 Authors should explain that this result is expected since T6SS acts on solid surface while CDI works in liquid cultures

      • Thank you for this comment. Prior studies have demonstrated that while CDI-mediated antibacterial activity is less efficient in liquid environments, it can still occur on both solid surfaces and in liquid cultures, provided the competitors possess the necessary CdiA binding unit, such as BamA17,18. This understanding supports our initial hypothesis that T6SS and/or CDI contribute to the observed protective phenotype in S. enterica phage-resistant variants (Figure 2).

      clarify what it is meant by unicellular cultures. Should it be monocultures?

      • We apologize for this error and have now replaced "unicellular cultures" with "monocultures" in the revised manuscript (Lines 137, 180, and 258).

      618 add to the text how much dead phage was added per bacterial cell

      • Apologies for this oversight. The multiplicity of infection (MOI) describing the amount of inactivated phages used to treat bacterial cells has now been included in the revised Methods section (Line 661).

      364 references needed for "consistent with predictions for intact LPS structures "

      • We thank the reviewer for pointing out this omission. The relevant reference has now been added to the revised manuscript19 (Line 368). Reviewer #____2____ (Significance)

      This study offers a new perspective on the interplay between phage resistance and bacterial fitness in the context of microbial communities. While the concept of fitness trade-offs associated with antibiotic resistance is well-established, the authors extend this paradigm to phage resistance. They demonstrate that phage-resistant Salmonella enterica strains exhibit reduced fitness in the presence of Enterobacter cloacae due to increased susceptibility to the type VI secretion system (T6SS). This finding is significant as it highlights the potential for interbacterial antagonism to shape the evolution of phage resistance. The authors further show that the O-antigen of lipopolysaccharide (LPS) plays a crucial role in protecting S. enterica from T6SS attack. This observation provides mechanistic insights into the fitness trade-offs associated with phage resistance.

      The study's strength lies in its elegant experimental design and the comprehensive analysis of the interplay between phage resistance, T6SS susceptibility, and O-antigen structure. The authors employ a combination of co-culture experiments, genetic manipulations, and structural analyses to dissect the underlying mechanisms. The findings are robust and have implications for understanding the evolution of bacterial communities in the presence of phages and competing bacterial species.

      This research will be of interest to a broad audience, including researchers in microbiology, synthetic biology, and microbial ecology. The findings have implications for understanding the evolution of phage resistance, and the dynamics of microbial communities. The study's insights into the role of the O-antigen in T6SS susceptibility could also inform the design of novel antimicrobial strategies.

      My expertise is microbial physiology

      • We thank the reviewer for their positive remarks and careful reading of our manuscript. Reviewer #____3____ (Evidence, reproducibility____,____ and clarity)

      Tsai et al. describe LPS biosynthesis mutants arising in selection for phage resistance that increase susceptibility to T6SS-mediated interbacterial antagonism. Phage-derived LPS degrading enzymes also contribute to T6SS susceptibility, which may be due to weakening of the physical barrier of LPS. The mechanisms of this fitness trade-off are elucidated with well-executed and presented experiments.

      • We are grateful to the reviewer for their kind words and critical reading of the manuscript. Major comments

      No major critiques.

      Minor comments

      Others have described two T6SS in Enterobacter cloacae ATCC 13047 (PMID 33072020). Please clarify which of the two are inactivated by the tssM deletion in this study and either provide compelling evidence that both are inactive or change the text throughout to indicate T6SS-1 or T6SS-2 being inactivated.

      • We thank the reviewer for this comment. In our study, we refer to the work by Whitney, J., et al., 201420, from which we used the tssM (ECL_01536) gene deletion strain in which T6SS-1 of the E. cloacae ATCC 13047 is abrogated. Consistent with this detail, we have now clarified in the revised manuscript (Line 155, Supplementary Table 1) that T6SS-1 is inactivated. Moreover, the reference suggested by the reviewer provides additional evidence supporting that T6SS-1, but not T6SS-2, is involved in bacterial competition21, which we also now specify in the revised manuscript. It seems the authors used EHEC EDL933, which has T6SS, in co-culture experiments (Figure 1C). Why do the authors think the S. enterica LPS mutants don't have a competitive disadvantage against EHEC? It seems to run counter to the conclusion that LPS is broadly protective against T6SS.

      • We thank the reviewer for raising this point. While it is true that EHEC O157:H7 strain EDL933 possesses a T6SS gene cluster in its genome, a prior study has shown that the T6SS in this strain appears to be inactivated under laboratory conditions, likely due to repression by the global regulator H-NS22. Consistent with these findings, our data indicate that the S. enterica LPS mutants did not exhibit a competitive disadvantage against EHEC EDL933. These results support the conclusion that, under the conditions tested, the truncated LPS in S. enterica does not affect its fitness against EHEC (Figure 1c), likely due to the inactivity of the EHEC T6SS22. It's not clear if the only Felix O1 and P22 phage-resistant transposon hits were in LPS-related genes, or if that pattern was observed in a more complete transposon sequencing dataset and selected for further study. A complete list of the sequence-identified hits, including the non-LPS related variants, would help clarify this and provide a useful resource to the research community.

      • We thank the reviewer for the opportunity to clarify this point. For each phage, we initially isolated nine phage-resistant transposon variants, which were subsequently used for co-culture assays and transposon insertion site identification, as described in the original manuscript (Figure 1a __and Supplementary Figure 2a__). We agree with the reviewer that a broader screening approach could reveal non-LPS-related variants and provide a more comprehensive resource for the research community. To address this point, during the manuscript revision period, we followed the same procedure and isolated an additional nine phage-resistant variants for each phage (Supplementary Table 1). Interestingly, from this expanded isolation dataset, the transposon insertions were again found exclusively in LPS-related genes (Author Response Figure 1). We have now included this new dataset in the revised manuscript and believe it strengthens the robustness of our findings. This expanded data has been made available below for further reference. The fact that 8 of the 9 Felix O1 resistant variants all have transposon insertions in waaO should be stated in the results. The initial impression of showing R1-R9 is that 9 disrupted genes are being tested - in this case it's really only two. This is a minor critique because clean deletions by allelic exchange are shown for a more extensive set of genes anyway.

      • We thank the reviewer for this comment. As suggested, we have revised the Results section (Lines 126-131) to explicitly state that Felix O1-resistant variants harbor transposon insertions in only two genes (waaO and dagR), which were initially tested in the competition assay (Figure 2). The S. enterica serovar Typhimurium transposon mutagenesis library could benefit from clarification on details. The results section suggests use of a pre-existing "established" transposon library, but the methods and Figure 1 seem to indicate a new library was created based on prior methods. In either case, what is the genome coverage and redundancy of the library? If this is not known or saturation is not reached, the implications of potentially missing phage resistance genes with this approach should be discussed.

      • We thank the reviewer for the opportunity to clarify this point. For our study, we created a transposon library following previously established methods23. The library comprises approximately 12,000 variants, as noted in Figure 1a. While doing so provided substantial genome coverage, it did not achieve full saturation. We have now revised the Results section (Lines 93-94, and 115-117) to better describe the potential limitations of this approach, including by stating the possibility that some phage-resistance genes may have been missed during the screening. There is some variation in phenotype among the strains with transposon insertion into the same gene, such as P22 resistant strain R7 which macroscopically agglutinates while the other waaJ insertions R5 and R1 don't. Is this due to polar effects on waaO, or could it be genetic alterations at other sites driven by stringent phage selection?

      • We thank the reviewer for this comment. We also suspect that the variation in the macroscopically agglutinative phenotypes among P22-resistant strains, such as strain R7 compared to R5 and R1, may be caused by polar effects on waaO. Additionally, the possibility of genetic alterations at other loci driven by stringent phage selection cannot be excluded. To address this potential variability and ensure consistency, we used clean deletions of each LPS biogenesis gene in all subsequent experiments. This approach eliminates the confounding effects of polar mutations or secondary genetic alterations, thereby providing more robust and interpretable data. Figure S1- The graphs with 12 growth curves are difficult to decipher, and the error bars would suggest maybe there are subtle growth differences among the mutants. Quantifying curve parameter(s) and applying a statistical test may clarify. The CFU counts in panel D seem to be not in log scale. Likewise in Figure S3 panel A, the authors say there are no significant growth defects, but the growth curves are modestly right-shifted for several mutants. This is a point of precision rather than a major critique, because the reversal of competitive growth phenotypes by donor T6SS inactivation indicate the potential minor growth defects aren't playing a major role in competition.

      • We thank the reviewer for these suggestions and corrections. We have now revised the manuscript accordingly, including in Supplementary Figures 1 and 3. Quantitative analysis of growth curve parameters and statistical tests have been included below to clarify the observed differences (Author Response Figure 2). The slight right-shift of the growth curves for some mutants, as noted in Supplementary Figure 3, may be attributable to cell aggregation, as shown in Supplementary Figures 2e, f. The growth rate measurements were conducted in a 96-well plate with steady shaking at 200 rpm using a plate reader, which does not fully account for the aggregated cell phenotype. Despite these subtle growth differences, we agree with the reviewer that they do not appear to play a major role in the competitive growth phenotypes, as evidenced by the reversal of phenotypes upon donor T6SS inactivation (Supplementary Figure 3). Figure 3f - The authors say fepE is responsible for very long O-antigen chains, but it is not clear that the delta fepE LPS PAGE differs from wild type, which would fit with the lack of competitive disadvantage against E. cloacae in Figure 3g. The increased VL-modal O-antigen upon fepE overexpression in Figure 3h and increase protection in competition (figure 3i) are convincing. Is there another pathway(s) compensating for fepE deletion?

      • We thank the reviewer for this thoughtful comment. We have repeated the experiment independently at least three times and consistently observed a reduction in the VL-modal O-antigen in the ∆fepE strain. To provide additional clarity, we have included supplementary LPS profiles and quantifications below (Author Response Figure 3). We currently do not have evidence from the literature or our experiments to identify an alternative pathway compensating for the deletion of fepE. Nonetheless, we acknowledge this as a possibility and appreciate the reviewer's insight into this topic. Lines 199-200 - I believe the conclusion from wzzB deletion would be that L-modal O-antigen is necessary for protection against T6SS, and not necessarily sufficient.

      • We thank the reviewer for pointing out this important distinction. The respective sentence has now been revised in the manuscript (Line 204). Do the environmentally isolated phages As2 and As4 encode TSP homologs?

      • We thank the reviewer for this question. We did not identify TSP homologs in the genome of As2 and As4 phages. The genome sequences of As1 to As4 have been uploaded to NCBI's BioProject resource under accession number PRJNA1199570 (Lines 535-544, 741-743). Reviewer #____3____ (Significance)

      This manuscript provides a substantial advance in the field's understanding of how phages affect bacterial community interactions. To my knowledge, it is the first to bring together phage and T6SS defense with a strong mechanistic link. It's a conceptual advance in this regard that will stimulate more thought and experimentation on the roles of phage in bacterial communities like gut and environmental microbiomes. The manuscript's strengths include rigorous overall design, clarity of the communication, and depth of mechanistic investigation, all the way down to atomic force microscopy measurements. There are some minor revisions suggested, but these are addressable with minimal/no additional experiments.

      As someone with expertise in bacterial secretion systems and interbacterial interactions, I think this work will be of interest to microbiologists generally, and specifically in the fields of phage biology, bacterial secretion systems, and microbiome research. While the phage virology components are straightforward and well described, I think a review from someone with more expertise in this specific area would be beneficial.

      • We thank the reviewer for their careful reading of our manuscript and for the suggestions to improve it. References

      • Whitney, J.C., Quentin, D., Sawai, S., LeRoux, M., Harding, B.N., Ledvina, H.E., Tran, B.Q., Robinson, H., Goo, Y.A., Goodlett, D.R., et al. (2015). An interbacterial NAD(P)(+) glycohydrolase toxin requires elongation factor Tu for delivery to target cells. Cell 163, 607-619. 10.1016/j.cell.2015.09.027.

      • Ali, J., Yu, M., Sung, L.K., Cheung, Y.W., and Lai, E.M. (2023). A glycine zipper motif is required for the translocation of a T6SS toxic effector into target cells. EMBO Rep 24, e56849. 10.15252/embr.202356849.
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    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this report, the authors made use of a murine cell life derived from a MYC-driven liver cancer to investigate the gene expression changes that accompany the switch from normoxic to hypoxia conditions during 2D growth and the switch from 2D monolayer to 3D organoid growth under normoxic conditions. They find a significant (ca. 40-50%) overlap among the genes that are dysregulated in response to hypoxia in 2D cultures and in response to spheroid formation. Unsurprisingly, hypoxia-related genes were among the most prominently deregulated under both sets of conditions. Many other pathways pertaining to metabolism, splicing, mitochondrial electron transport chain structure and function, DNA damage recognition/repair, and lipid biosynthesis were also identified.

      Major comments:

      (1) Lines 239-240: The authors state that genes involved in DNA repair were identified as being necessary to maintain survival of both 2D and 3D cultures (Figure S6A). Hypoxia is a strong inducer of ROS. Thus, the ROS-specific DNA damage/recognition/repair pathways might be particularly important. The authors should look more carefully at the various subgroups of the many genes that are involved in DNA repair. They should also obtain at least a qualitative assessment of ROS and ROS-mediated DNA damage by staining for total and mitochondrial-specific ROS using dyes such as CM-H2-DCFDA and MitoSox. Actual direct oxidative damage could be assessed by immunostaining for 8-oxo-dG and related to the sub-types of DNA damage-repair genes that are induced. The centrality of DNA damage genes also raises the question as to whether the previously noted prominence of the TP53 pathway (see point 5 below) might represent a response to ROS-induced DNA damage.

      (2) Because most of the pathway differences that distinguish the various cell states from one another are described only in terms of their transcriptome variations, it is not always possible to understand what the functional consequences of these changes actually are. For example, the authors report that hypoxia alters the expression of genes involved in PDH regulation but this is quite vague and not backed up with any functional or empirical analyses. PDH activity is complex and regulated primarily via phosphorylation/dephosphorylation (usually mediated by PDK1 and PDP2, respectively), which in turn are regulated by prevailing levels of ATP and ADP. Functionally, one might expect that hypoxia would lead to the down-regulation of PDH activity (i.e. increased PDH-pSer392) as respiration changes from oxidative to non-oxidative. This would not be appreciated simply by looking at PDH transcript levels. This notion could be tested by looking at total and phospho-PDH by western blotting and/or by measuring actual PDH activity as it converts pyruvate to AcCoA.

      (3) Line 439: Related to the above point: the authors state: "It is likely that blockade of acetyl-CoA production by PDH knockout may force cells to use alternative energy sources under hypoxic and 3D conditions, averting the Warburg effect and promoting cell survival under limited oxygen and nutrient availability in 3D spheroids." This could easily be tested by determining whether exogenous fatty acids are more readily oxidized by hypoxic 2D cultures or spheroids than occurs in normoxic 2D cultures.

      (4) Line 472: "Hypoxia induces high expression of Acaca and Fasn in NEJF10 cells indicating that hypoxia promotes saturated fatty acid synthesis...The beneficial effect of Fasn and Acaca KO to NEJF10 under hypoxia is probably due to reduction of saturated fatty acid synthesis, and this hypothesis needs to be tested in the future.". As with the preceding comment, this supposition could readily be supported directly by, for example, performing westerns blots for these enzymes and by showing that incubation of hypoxic 2D cells or spheroids converted more AcCoA into lipid.

      (5) In Supplementary Figure 2B&C, the central hub of the 2D normoxic cultures is Myc (as it should well be) whereas, in the normoxic 3D, the central hub is TP53 and Myc is not even present. The authors should comment on this. One would assume that Myc levels should still be quite high given that Myc is driven by an exogenous promoter. Does the centrality of TP53 indicate that the cells within the spheroids are growth-arrested, being subjected to DNA damage and/or undergoing apoptosis?

      (6) In the Materials and Methods section (lines 711-720), the description of how spheroid formation was achieved is unclear. Why were the cells first plated into non-adherent 96 well plates and then into non-adherent T75 flasks? Did the authors actually utilize and expand the cells from 144 T75 flasks and did the cells continue to proliferate after forming spheroids? Many cancer cell types will initially form monolayers when plated onto non-adherent surfaces such as plastic Petri dishes and will form spheroid-like structures only after several days. Other cells will only aggregate on the "non-adherent" surface and form spheroid-like structures but will not actually detach from the plate's surface. Have the authors actually documented the formation of true, non-adherent spheroids at 2 days and did they retain uniform size and shape throughout the collection period? The single photo in Supplementary Figure 1 does not explain when this was taken. The authors include a schematic in Figure 2A of the various conditions that were studied. A similar cartoon should be included to better explain precisely how the spheroids were generated and clarify the rationale for 96 well plating. Overall, a clearer and more concise description of how spheroids were actually generated and their appearance at different stages of formation needs to be provided.

      (7) The authors maintained 2D cultures in either normoxic or hypoxic (1% O2) states during the course of their experiments. On the other hand, 3D cultures were maintained under normoxic conditions, with the assumption that the interiors of the spheroids resemble the hypoxic interiors of tumors. However, the actual documentation of intra-spheroid hypoxia is never presented. It would be a good idea for the authors to compare the degree of hypoxia achieved by 2D (1% O2) and 3D cultures by staining with a hypoxia-detecting dye such as Image-iT Green. Comparing the fluorescence intensities in 2D cultures at various O2 concentrations might even allow for the construction of a "standard curve" that could serve to approximate the actual internal O2 concentration of spheroids. This would allow the authors to correlate the relative levels of hypoxia between 2D and 3D cultures.

      (8) Related to the previous 2 points, the authors performed RNAseq on spheroids only 48 hours after initiating 3D growth. I am concerned that this might not have been a sufficiently long enough time for the cells to respond fully to their hypoxic state, especially given my concerns in Point 6. Might the results have been even more robust had the authors waited longer to perform RNA seq? Why was this short time used?

      (9) What happens to the gene expression pattern if spheroids are re-plated into standard tissue culture plates after having been maintained as spheroids? Do they resume 2D growth and does the gene expression pattern change back?

      (10) Overall, the paper is quite descriptive in that it lists many gene sets that are altered in response to hypoxia and the formation of spheroids without really delving into the actual functional implications and/or prioritizing the sets. Some of these genes are shown by CRISPR screening to be essential for maintaining viability although in very few cases are these findings ever translated into functional studies (for example, see points 1-4 above). The list of genes and gene pathways could benefit from a better explanation and prioritization of which gene sets the authors believe to be most important for survival in response to hypoxia and for spheroid formation.

      (11) The authors used a single MYC-driven tumor cell line for their studies. However, in their original paper (Fang, et al. Nat Commun 2023, 14: 4003.) numerous independent cell lines were described. It would help to know whether RNAseq studies performed on several other similar cell lines gave similar results in terms of up & down-regulated transcripts (i.e. representative of the other cell lines are NEJF10 cells).

    2. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The manuscript by Fang et al., provides a tour-de-force study uncovering cancer cell's varied dependencies on several gene programs for their survival under different biological contexts. The authors addressed genomic differences in 2D vs 3D cultures and how hypoxia affects gene expression. They used a Myc-driven murine liver cancer model grown in 2D monolayer culture in normoxia and hypoxia as well as cells grown as 3D spheroids and performed CRISPR-based genome-wide KO screen to identify genes that play important roles in cell fitness. Some context-specific gene effects were further validated by in-vitro and in-vivo gene KO experiments.

      Strengths:

      The key findings in this manuscript are:

      (1) Close to 50% of differentially expressed genes were common between 2D Hypoxia and 3D spheroids conditions but they had differences in chromatin accessibility.<br /> (2) VHL-HIF1a pathway had differential cell fitness outcomes under 2D normoxia vs 2D hypoxia and 3D spheroids.<br /> (3) Individual components of the mitochondrial respiratory chain complex had contrasting effects on cell fitness under hypoxia.<br /> (4) Knockout of organogenesis or developmental pathway genes led to better cell growth specifically in the context of 3D spheroids and knockout of epigenetic modifiers had varied effects between 2D and 3D conditions.<br /> (5) Another key program that leads to cells fitness outcomes in normoxia vs hypoxia is the lipid and fatty acid metabolism.<br /> (6) Prmt5 is a key essential gene under all growth conditions, but in the context of 3D spheroids even partial loss of Prmt5 has a synthetic lethal effect with Mtap deletion and Mtap is epigenetically silenced specifically in the 3D spheroids.

      Issues to address:

      (1) The authors should clarify the link between the findings of the enrichment of TGFb-SMAD signaling REACTOME pathway to the findings that knocking out TGFb-SMAD pathway leads to better cell fitness outcomes for cells in the 3D growth conditions.

      (2) Supplementary Figure 4C has been cited in the text but doesn't exist in the supplementary figures section.

      (3) A small figure explaining this ABC-Myc driven liver cancer model in Supplementary Figure 1 would be helpful to provide context.

      (4) The method for spheroids formation is not found in the method section.

      (5) In Supplementary Figure 1b, the comparisons should be stated the opposite way - 3D vs 2D normoxia and 2D-Hypoxia vs 2D-Normoxia.

      (6) There are typos in the legend for Supplementary Figure 10.

      (7) Consider putting Supplementary Figure 1b into the main Figure 1.

      (8) Please explain only one timepoint (endpoint) for 3D spheroids was performed for the CRISPR KO screen experiment, while several timepoints were done for 2D conditions? Was this for technical convenience?

      (9) In line 372, it is indicated that Bcor KO (Fig 5e) had growth advantage - this was observed in only one of the gRNA -- same with Kmt2d KO in the same figure where there was an opposite effect. Please justify the use of only one gRNA.

      (10) Why was CRISPR based KO strategy not used for the PRMT5 gene but rather than the use of shRNA.? Note that one of the shRNA for PRMT5 had almost no KO (PRMT5-shRNA2 Figure 7B) but still showed phenotype (Figure 7D) - please explain.

      (11) In Figure 7D, which samples (which shRNA group) were being compared to do the t-test?

      (12) In line 240, it is stated that oxphos gene set is essential for NEJF10 cell survival in both normoxia and hypoxia conditions. But shouldn't oxphos be non-essential in hypoxia as cells move away from oxphos and become glycolytic?

      (13) In line 485 it is mentioned that Pmvk and Mvd genes which are involved in cholesterol synthesis when knocked out had a positive effect on cell growth in 3D conditions and since cholesterol synthesis is essential for cell growth how does this not matter much in the context of 3D - please explain.

    1. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors conducted a study to evaluate the potential of circulating HPV cell-free DNA (cfDNA) as a biomarker for monitoring recurrent or metastatic HPV+ cervical cancer. They analyzed serum samples from 28 patients, measuring HPV cfDNA levels via digital droplet PCR and comparing these to squamous cell carcinoma antigen (SCC-Ag) levels in 26 SCC patients, while also testing the association between HPV cfDNA levels and clinical outcomes. The main hypothesis that the authors set out to test was whether circulating HPV cfDNA levels correlated with metastatic patterns and/or treatment response in HPV+ CC.

      The main claims put forward by the paper are that:

      (1) HPV cfDNA was detected in all 28 CC patients enrolled in the study and levels of HPV cfDNA varied over a median 2-month monitoring period.<br /> (2) 'Median baseline' HPV cfDNA varied according to 'metastatic pattern' in individual patients.<br /> (3) Positivity rate for HPV cfDNA was more consistent than SCC-Ag.<br /> (4) In 20 SCC patients monitored longitudinally, concordance with changes in disease status was 90% for HPV cfDNA.

      This study highlights HPV cfDNA as a promising biomarker with advantages over SCC-Ag, underscoring its potential for real-time disease surveillance and individualized treatment guidance in HPV-associated cervical cancer.

      Strengths:

      This study presents valuable insights into HPV+ cervical cancer with potential translational significance for management and guiding therapeutic strategies. The focus on a non-invasive approach is particularly relevant for women's cancers, and the study exemplifies the promising role of HPV cfDNA as a biomarker that could aid personalized treatment strategies.

      Weaknesses:

      While the authors acknowledge the study's small cohort and variability in sequential sampling protocols as a limitation, several revisions should be made to ensure that (1) the findings are presented in a way that aligns more closely with the data without overstatement and (2) that the statistical support for these findings is made more clear. Specific suggestions are outlined below.

      (1) The authors should provide source data for Figures 2, 3, and 4 as supplementary material.

      (2) Description of results in Figure 2: Figure 2 would benefit from clearer annotations regarding HPV virus subtypes. For example, does the color-coding in Figure 2B imply that all samples in the LR subgroup are of type HPV16? If that is the case, is it possible that detection variations are due to differences in subtype detection efficiency rather than cfDNA levels? The authors should clarify these aspects. Annotation of Figure 2B suggests that the p-value comes from comparing the LR and LN+H+DSM groups. This should be clarified in the legend. If this p-value comes from comparing HPV cfDNA copies for the (LR, LNM, HM) and (LN+HM, LN+HM+DSM) groups, did the authors carry out post-hoc pairwise comparisons? It would be helpful to include acronyms for these groups in the legend also.

      (3) Interpretation of results in Figure 2 and elsewhere: Significant differences detected in Figure 2B could imply potential associations between HPV cfDNA levels (or subtypes) and recurrence/metastasis patterns. Figure 2C shows that there is a difference in cfDNA levels between the groups compared, suggesting an association but this would not necessarily be a direct "correlation". Overall, interpretation of statistical findings would benefit from more precise language throughout the text and overstatement should be avoided.

      (4) The authors state that six patients showed cfDNA elevation with clinically progressive disease, yet only three are represented in Figure 3B1 under "Patients whose disease progressed during treatment." What is the expected baseline variability in cfDNA for patients? If we look at data from patients with early-stage cancer would we see similar fluctuations? And does the degree of variability vary for different HPV subtypes? Without understanding the normal fluctuations in cfDNA levels, interpreting these changes as progression indicators may be premature.

      (5) It would be helpful if where p-values are given, the test used to derive these values was also stated within parentheses e.g. (P < 0.05, permutation test with Benjamini-Hochberg procedure).

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      This work makes several contributions: (1) a method for the self-supervised segmentation of cells in 3D microscopy images, (2) an cell-segmented dataset comprising six volumes from a mesoSPIM sample of a mouse brain, and (3) a napari plugin to apply and train the proposed method.

      First, thanks for acknowledging our contributions of a new tool, new dataset, and new software.

      (1) Method

      This work presents itself as a generalizable method contribution with a wide scope: self-supervised 3D cell segmentation in microscopy images. My main critique is that there is almost no evidence for the proposed method to have that wide of a scope. Instead, the paper is more akin to a case report that shows that a particular self-supervised method is good enough to segment cells in two datasets with specific properties.

      First, thanks for acknowledging our contributions of a new tool, new dataset, and new software. We agree we focus on lightsheet microscopy data, therefore to narrow the scope we have changed the title to “CellSeg3D: self-supervised 3D cell segmentation for light-sheet microscopy”.

      To support the claim that their method "address[es] the inherent complexity of quantifying cells in 3D volumes", the method should be evaluated in a comprehensive study including different kinds of light and electron microscopy images, different markers, and resolutions to cover the diversity of microscopy images that both title and abstract are alluding to.

      You have selectively dropped the last part of that sentence that is key: “.... 3D volumes, often in cleared neural tissue” – which is what we tackle. The next sentence goes on to say: “We offer a new 3D mesoSPIM dataset and show that CellSeg3D can match state-of-the-art supervised methods.” Thus, we literally make it clear our claims are on MesoSPIM and cleared data.

      The main dataset used here (a mesoSPIM dataset of a whole mouse brain) features well-isolated cells that are easily distinguishable from the background. Otsu thresholding followed by a connected component analysis already segments most of those cells correctly.

      This is not the case, as all the other leading methods we fairly benchmark cannot solve the task without deep learning (i.e., no method is at an F1-Score of 1).

      The proposed method relies on an intensity-based segmentation method (a soft version of a normalized cut) and has at least five free parameters (radius, intensity, and spatial sigma for SoftNCut, as well as a morphological closing radius, and a merge threshold for touching cells in the post-processing). Given the benefit of tweaking parameters (like thresholds, morphological operation radii, and expected object sizes), it would be illuminating to know how other non-learning-based methods will compare on this dataset, especially if given the same treatment of segmentation post-processing that the proposed method receives. After inspecting the WNet3D predictions (using the napari plugin) on the used datasets I find them almost identical to the raw intensity values, casting doubt as to whether the high segmentation accuracy is really due to the self-supervised learning or instead a function of the post-processing pipeline after thresholding.

      First, thanks for testing our tool, and glad it works for you. The deep learning methods we use cannot “solve” this dataset, and we also have a F1-Score (dice) of ~0.8 with our self-supervised method. We don’t see the value in applying non-learning methods; this is unnecessary and beyond the scope of this work.

      I suggest the following baselines be included to better understand how much of the segmentation accuracy is due to parameter tweaking on the considered datasets versus a novel method contribution:

      *  comparison to thresholding (with the same post-processing as the proposed method) * comparison to a normalized cut segmentation (with the same post-processing as the proposed method)

      *  comparison to references 8 and 9.

      Ref 8 and 9 don’t have readily usable (https://github.com/LiangHann/USAR) or even shared code (https://github.com/Kaiseem/AD-GAN), so re-implementing this work is well beyond the bounds of this paper. We benchmarked Cellpose, StartDist, SegResNets, and a transformer – SwinURNet. Moreover, models in the MONAI package can be used. Note, to our knowledge the transformer results also are a new contribution that the Reviewer does not acknowledge.

      I further strongly encourage the authors to discuss the limitations of their method. From what I understand, the proposed method works only on well-separated objects (due to the semantic segmentation bottleneck), is based on contrastive FG/BG intensity values (due to the SoftNCut loss), and requires tuning of a few parameters (which might be challenging if no ground-truth is available).

      We added text on limitations. Thanks for this suggestion.

      (2) Dataset

      I commend the authors for providing ground-truth labels for more than 2500 cells. I would appreciate it if the Methods section could mention how exactly the cells were labelled. I found a good overlap between the ground truth and Otsu thresholding of the intensity images. Was the ground truth generated by proofreading an initial automatic segmentation, or entirely done by hand? If the former, which method was used to generate the initial segmentation, and are there any concerns that the ground truth might be biased towards a given segmentation method?

      In the already submitted version, we have a 5-page DataSet card that fully answers your questions. They are ALL labeled by hand, without any semi-automatic process.

      In our main text we even stated “Using whole-brain data from mice we cropped small regions and human annotated in 3D 2,632 neurons that were endogenously labeled by TPH2-tdTomato” - clearly mentioning it is human-annotated.

      (3) Napari plugin

      The plugin is well-documented and works by following the installation instructions.

      Great, thanks for the positive feedback.

      However, I was not able to recreate the segmentations reported in the paper with the default settings for the pre-trained WNet3D: segments are generally too large and there are a lot of false positives. Both the prediction and the final instance segmentation also show substantial border artifacts, possibly due to a block-wise processing scheme.

      Your review here does not match your comments above; above you said it was working well, such that you doubt the GT is real and the data is too easy as it was perfectly easy to threshold with non-learning methods.

      You would need to share more details on what you tried. We suggest following our code; namely, we provide the full experimental code and processing for every figure, as was noted in our original submission: https://github.com/C-Achard/cellseg3d-figures.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors propose a new method for self-supervised learning of 3d semantic segmentation for fluorescence microscopy. It is based on a WNet architecture (Encoder / Decoder using a UNet for each of these components) that reconstructs the image data after binarization in the bottleneck with a soft n-cuts clustering. They annotate a new dataset for nucleus segmentation in mesoSPIM imaging and train their model on this dataset. They create a napari plugin that provides access to this model and provides additional functionality for training of own models (both supervised and self-supervised), data labeling, and instance segmentation via post-processing of the semantic model predictions. This plugin also provides access to models trained on the contributed dataset in a supervised fashion.

      Strengths:

      (1) The idea behind the self-supervised learning loss is interesting.

      (2) The paper addresses an important challenge. Data annotation is very time-consuming for 3d microscopy data, so a self-supervised method that yields similar results to supervised segmentation would provide massive benefits.

      Thank you for highlighting the strengths of our work and new contributions.

      Weaknesses:

      The experiments presented by the authors do not adequately support the claims made in the paper. There are several shortcomings in the design of the experiment, presentation of the results, and reproducibility.

      We address your concerns and misunderstandings below.

      Major weaknesses:

      (1) The main experiments are conducted on the new mesoSPIM dataset, which contains quite small nuclei, much smaller than the pretraining datasets of CellPose and StarDist. I assume that this is one of the main reasons why these well-established methods don't work for this dataset.

      StarDist is not pretrained, we trained it from scratch as we did for WNet3D. We retrained Cellpose and reported the results both with their pretrained model and our best-retrained model. This is documented in Figure 1 and Suppl. Figure 1. We also want to push back and say that they both work very well on this data. In fact, our main claim is not that we beat them, it is that we can match them with a self-supervised method.

      Limiting method comparison to only this dataset may create a misleading impression that CellSeg3D is superior for all kinds of 3D nucleus segmentation tasks, whereas this might only hold for small nuclei.

      The GT dataset we labeled has nuclei that are normal brain-cell sized. Moreover in Figure 2 we show very different samples with both dense and noisy (c-FOS) labeling.

      We also clearly do not claim this is superior for all tasks, from our text: “First, we benchmark our methods against Cellpose and StarDist, two leading supervised cell segmentation packages with user-friendly workflows, and show our methods match or outperform them in 3D instance segmentation on mesoSPIM-acquired volumes" – we explicitly do NOT claim beyond the scope of the benchmark. Moreover we state: "We found that WNet3D could be as good or better than the fully supervised models, especially in the low data regime, on this dataset at semantic and instance segmentation" – again noting on this dataset. Again, we only claimed we can be as good as these methods with an unsupervised approach, and in the low-GT data regime we can excel.

      Further, additional preprocessing of the mesoSPIM images may improve results for StarDist and CellPose (see the first point in minor weaknesses). Note: having a method that works better for small nuclei would be an important contribution. But I doubt that the claims hold for larger and or more crowded nuclei as the current version of the paper implies.

      Figure 2 benchmarks our method on larger and denser nuclei, but we do not intend to claim this is a universal tool. It was specifically designed for light-sheet (brain) data, and we have adjusted the title to be more clear. But we also show in Figure 2 it works well on more dense and noisy samples, hinting that it could be a promising approach. But we agree, as-is, it’s unlikely to be good for extremely dense samples like in electron microscopy, which we never claim it would be.

      With regards to preprocessing, we respectfully disagree. We trained StarDist (and asked the main developer of StarDist, Martin Weigert, to check our work and he is acknowledged in the paper) and it does very well. Cellpose we also retrained and optimized and we show it works as-well-as leading transformer and CNN-based approaches. Again, we only claimed we can be as good as these methods with an unsupervised approach.

      The contribution of the paper would be much stronger if a **fair** comparison with StarDist / CellPose was also done on the additional datasets from Figure 2.

      We appreciate that more datasets would be ideal, but we always feel it’s best for the authors of tools to benchmark their own tools on data. We only compared others in Figure 1 to the new dataset we provide so people get a sense of the quality of the data too; there we did extensive searches for best parameters for those tools. So while we think it would be nice, we will leave it to those authors to be most fair. We also narrowed the scope of our claims to mesoSPIM data (added light-sheet to the title), which none of the other examples in Figure 2 are.

      (2) The experimental setup for the additional datasets seems to be unrealistic. In general, the description of these experiments is quite short and so the exact strategy is unclear from the text. However, you write the following: "The channel containing the foreground was then thresholded and the Voronoi-Otsu algorithm used to generate instance labels (for Platynereis data), with hyperparameters based on the Dice metric with the ground truth." I.e., the hyperparameters for the post-processing are found based on the ground truth. From the description it is unclear whether this is done a) on the part of the data that is then also used to compute metrics or b) on a separate validation split that is not used to compute metrics. If a) this is not a valid experimental setup and amounts to training on your test set. If b) this is ok from an experimental point of view, but likely still significantly overestimates the quality of predictions that can be achieved by manual tuning of these hyperparameters by a user that is not themselves a developer of this plugin or an absolute expert in classical image analysis, see also 3.

      We apologize for this confusion; we have now expanded the methods to clarify the setup is now b; you can see what we exactly did as well in the figure notebook: https://c-achard.github.io/cellseg3d-figures/fig2-b-c-extra-datasets/self-supervised-ext ra.html#threshold-predictions.

      For clarity, we additionally link each individual notebook now in the Methods.

      (3) I cannot reproduce any of the results using the plugin. I tried to reproduce some of the results from the paper qualitatively: First I downloaded one of the volumes from the mesoSPIM dataset (c5image) and applied the WNet3D to it. The prediction looks ok, however the value range is quite close (Average BG intensity ~0.4, FG intensity 0.6-0.7). I try to apply the instance segmentation using "Convert to instance labels" from "Utilities". Using "Voronoi-Otsu" does not work due to an error in pyClesperanto ("clGetPlatformIDs failed: PLATFORM_NOT_FOUND_KHR"). Segmentation via "Connected Components" and "Watershed" requires extensive manual tuning to get a somewhat decent result, which is still far from perfect.

      We are sorry to hear of the installation issue; pyClesperanto is a dependency that would be required to reproduce the images (sounds like you had this issue; https://forum.image.sc/t/pyclesperanto-prototype-doesnt-work/45724 ) We added to our docs now explicitly the fix:https://github.com/AdaptiveMotorControlLab/CellSeg3D/pull/90. We recommend checking the reproduction notebooks (which were linked in initial submission): https://c-achard.github.io/cellseg3d-figures/intro.html.

      Then I tried to reproduce the results for the Mouse Skull Nuclei Dataset from EmbedSeg. The results look like a denoised version of the input image, not a semantic segmentation. I was skeptical from the beginning that the method would transfer without retraining, due to the very different morphology of nuclei (much larger and elongated). None of the available segmentation methods yield a good result, the best I can achieve is a strong over-segmentation with watersheds.

      We are surprised to hear this; did you follow the following notebook which directly produces the steps to create this figure? (This was linked in preprint): https://c-achard.github.io/cellseg3d-figures/fig2-c-extra-datasets/self-supervised-extra .html

      We also expanded the methods to include the exact values from the notebook into the text.

      Minor weaknesses:

      (1) CellPose can work better if images are resized so that the median object size in new images matches the training data. For CellPose the cyto2 model should do this automatically. It would be important to report if this was done, and if not would be advisable to check if this can improve results.

      We reported this value in Figure 1 and found it to work poorly, that is why we retrained Cellpose and found good performance results (also reported in Figure 1). Resizing GB to TB volumes for mesoSPIM data is otherwise not practical, so simply retraining seems the preferable option, which is what we did.

      (2) It is a bit confusing that F1-Score and Dice Score are used interchangeably to evaluate results. The dice score only evaluates semantic predictions, whereas F1-Score evaluates the actual instance segmentation results. I would advise to only use F1-Score, which is the more appropriate metric. For Figure 1f either the mean F1 score over thresholds or F1 @ 0.5 could be reported. Furthermore, I would advise adopting the recommendations on metric reporting from https://www.nature.com/articles/s41592-023-01942-8.

      We are using the common metrics in the field for instance and semantic segmentation, and report them in the methods. In Figure 2f we actually report the “Dice” as defined in StarDist (as we stated in the Methods). Note, their implementation is functionally equivalent to F1-Score of an IoU >= 0, so we simply changed this label in the figure now for clarity. We agree this clarifies for the expert readers what was done, and we expanded the methods to be more clear about metrics.

      We added a link to the paper you mention as well.

      (3) A more conceptual limitation is that the (self-supervised) method is limited to intensity-based segmentation, and so will not be able to work for cases where structures cannot be distinguished based on intensity only. It is further unclear how well it can separate crowded nuclei. While some object separation can be achieved by morphological operations this is generally limited for crowded segmentation tasks and the main motivation behind the segmentation objective used in StarDist, CellPose, and other instance segmentation methods. This limitation is only superficially acknowledged in "Note that WNet3D uses brightness to detect objects [...]" but should be discussed in more depth. Note: this limitation does not mean at all that the underlying contribution is not significant, but I think it is important to address this in more detail so that potential users know where the method is applicable and where it isn't.

      We agree, and we added a new section specifically on limitations. Thanks for raising this good point. Thus, while self-supervision comes at the saving of hundreds of manual labor, it comes at the cost of more limited regimes it can work on. Hence why we don’t claim this should replace excellent methods like Cellpose or Stardist, but rather complement them and can be used on mesoSPIM samples, as we show here.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) One of the listed contributions is "adding the SoftNCuts loss". This is not true, reference 10 already introduced that loss.

      “Our changes include a conversion to a fully 3D architecture and adding the SoftNCuts loss” - we dropped the common and added the word “AND” to note that we added the 3D version of the SoftNCuts loss TO the 3D architecture, which 10 did not do.

      (2) "Typically, these methods use a multi-step approach" to segment 3D from 2D: this is only true for CellPose, StarDist does real 3D.

      That is why we preface with “typically” which implies not always.

      (3) "see Methods, Figure 1c, c)" is missing an opening in parentheses.

      (4) K is not introduced in equation (1) (presumably the number of classes, which seems to be 2 for all experiments considered).

      k actually was introduced just below equation 1 as the number of classes. We added the note that k was set to 2.

      (5) X is not introduced in equation (2) (presumably the spatial position of a voxel).

      Sorry for this oversight. We add that $X$ is the spatial position of the voxel.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      To improve the paper the weaknesses mentioned above should be addressed:

      (1) Compare to StarDist and/or CellPose on further datasets, esp. using pre-trained CellPose, to see if the claims of competitive performance with state-of-the-art approaches hold up for the case of different nucleus morphologies. The EmbedSeg datasets from Figure 2 c are well suited for this. In the current form, the claims are too broad and not supported if thorough experiments are performed on a single dataset with a very specific morphology. Note: even if the method is not fully competitive with CellPose / StarDist on these Datasets it holds merit since a segmentation method that works for small nuclei as in the mesoSPIM dataset and works self-supervised is very valuable.

      (2) Clarify how the best instance segmentation hyperparameters are found. If you indeed optimize these on the same part of the dataset used for evaluating metrics then the current experimental set-up is invalid. If this is not the case I would still rethink if this is a good way to report the results since it does not seem to reflect user experience. I found it not possible to find good hyperparameters for either of the two segmentation approaches I tried (see also next point) so I think these numbers are too optimistic.

      (3) Improve the instance segmentation part of the plugin: either provide troubleshooting for how to install pyClesperanto correctly to use the voronoi-based instance segmentation or implement it based on more standard functionality like skimage / scipy. Provide more guidance for finding good hyperparameters for the segmentation task.

      (4) Make sure image resizing is done correctly when using pre-trained CellPose models and report on this.

      (5) Report F1 Scores only (unless there is a compelling reason to also report Dice).

      (6) Address the limitations of the method in more detail.

      On a positive note: all data and code are available and easy to download/install. A minor comment: it would be very helpful to have line numbers for reviewing a revised version.

      All comments are also addressed in the public reviews.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife Assessment

      This valuable study provides in vivo evidence for the synchronization of projection neurons in the olfactory bulb at gamma frequency in an activity-dependent manner. This study uses optogenetics in combination with single-cell recordings to selectively activate sensory input channels within the olfactory bulb. The data are thoughtfully analyzed and presented; the evidence is solid, although some of the conclusions are only partially supported.

      We deeply thank all the reviewers for their time, effort, and insightful comments. Their revision led to a significant improvement of the paper.

      The reviewers suggested toning down our claim that we found a mechanism that synchronizes all odor-evoked MTC activities, as we do not directly show that. We concur and address this in our revised version to ensure a precise interpretation of our findings. In short, we state that we revealed a synchronization mechanism between two groups of active mitral and tufted cells (MTCs) and show that this synchronization is activity-dependent and distance-independent. This mechanism can enable the synchronization of all odor-activated MTCs.

      Another issue raised is the interpretation of the results obtained under Ketamine anesthesia. Ketamine is an NMDA receptor antagonist that plays a crucial role in the  MTC-GC reciprocal synapse. To address this, we include new analyses demonstrating that optogenetic activation of granule cells (GCs) can inhibit the recorded MTCs during baseline activity but does not substantially affect odor-evoked MTC firing rates. We show that this is correct in both Ketamine-induced anesthesia and awake mice (Dalal & Haddad, 2022). This indicates that GC-MTC connections are functional even under Ketamine anesthesia, however, they do not exert substantial suppression on odor-evoked MTC responses. We added a paragraph to the discussion section on the potential influence of Ketamine anesthesia on GC-MTC synapses and its implications on our findings.

      Finally, we discuss several recent studies that are particularly relevant to our research and expand the discussion on our hypothesis that parvalbumin-positive cells in the olfactory bulb may serve as key mediators of the activity- and distance-dependent lateral inhibition observed in our findings.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Dalal and Haddad investigated how neurons in the olfactory bulb are synchronized in oscillatory rhythms at gamma frequency. Temporal coordination of action potentials fired by projection neurons can facilitate information transmission to downstream areas. In a previous paper (Dalal and Haddad 2022, https://doi.org/10.1016/j.celrep.2022.110693), the authors showed that gamma frequency synchronization of mitral/tufted cells (MTCs) in the olfactory bulb enhances the response in the piriform cortex. The present study builds on these findings and takes a closer look at how gamma synchronization is restricted to a specific subset of MTCs in the olfactory bulb. They combined odor and optogenetic stimulations in anesthetized mice with extracellular recordings.<br /> The main findings are that lateral synchronization of MTCs at gamma frequency is mediated by granule cells (GCs), independent of the spatial distance, and strongest for MTCs with firing rates close to 40 Hz. The authors conclude that this reveals a simple mechanism by which spatially distributed neurons can form a synchronized ensemble. In contrast to lateral synchronization, they found no evidence for the involvement of GCs in lateral inhibition of nearby MTCs.

      Strengths:

      Investigating the mechanisms of rhythmic synchronization in vivo is difficult because of experimental limitations for the readout and manipulation of neuronal populations at fast timescales. Using spatially patterned light stimulation of opsin-expressing neurons in combination with extracellular recordings is a nice approach. The paper provides evidence for an activity-dependent synchronization of MTCs in gamma frequency that is mediated by GCs.

      Weaknesses:

      An important weakness of the study is the lack of direct evidence for the main conclusion - the synchronization of MTCs in gamma frequency. The data shows that paired optogenetic stimulation of MTCs in different parts of the olfactory bulb increases the rhythmicity of individual MTCs (Figure 1) and that combined odor stimulation and GC stimulation increases rhythmicity and gamma phase locking of individual MTCs (Figure 4). However, a direct comparison of the firing of different MTCs is missing. This could be addressed with extracellular recordings at two different locations in the olfactory bulb. The minimum requirement to support this conclusion would be to show that the MTCs lock to the same phase of the gamma cycle. Also, showing the evoked gamma oscillations would help to interpret the data.

      We agree with the reviewer that direct evidence of mutual synchronization between multiple recorded MTCs has not been shown in our study. Our study only shows a mechanism that can enable this synchronization. We now state this clearly in the manuscript. We based this on previous studies that tested MTC spike synchronization. Specifically, Schoppa 2006, reported that electrical OSN stimulation evokes MTC spikes synchronization in the gamma range, in-vitro. Kashiwadni et al., 1999 and Doucette et al., 2011 showed that odor-evoked MTC spike times are synchronized, in-vivo. Given these studies, we asked what is the underlying mechanism that can support such a synchronization. Our study demonstrates that activating a group of MTCs can entrain another MTC in an activity-dependent and distance-independent manner. We claim this could be the underlying mechanism for the odor-evoked synchronization as demonstrated by these previous studies.

      To make sure this is clearly stated in the manuscript we changed the title to “Activity-dependent lateral inhibition enables the synchronization of active olfactory bulb projection neurons”, and rephrased a sentence in the abstract to “This lateral synchronization was particularly effective when the recorded MTC fired at the gamma rhythm”. To further clarify this point, we made several other changes throughout the results and the discussion section.

      Another weakness is that all experiments are performed under anesthesia with ketamine/medetomidine. Ketamine is an antagonist of NMDA receptors and NMDA receptors are critically involved in the interactions of MTCs and GCs at the reciprocal synapses (see for example Lage-Rupprecht et al. 2020, https://doi.org/10.7554/eLife.63737; Egger and Kuner 2021, https://doi.org/10.1007/s00441-020-03402-7). This should be considered for the interpretation of the presented data.

      This issue has been raised by reviewers #1 and #2. We think, as also reviewer #2 acknowledged, that this issue does not compromise our results. However, to address this important point we added the below section to the Discussion:

      “Our experiments were performed under Ketamine anesthesia, an NMDA receptor antagonist that affects the reciprocal dendro-dendritic synapses between MTCs and GCs (Egger and Kuner, 2021; Lage-Rupprecht et al., 2020). Consistent with that, recent studies reported lower excitability of GC activity under anesthesia (Cazakoff et al., 2014; Kato et al., 2012).  This raises the concern that our result might not be valid in the awake state. We argue that this is unlikely. First, (Fukunaga et al., 2014) reported that GCs baseline activity in anesthetized and awake mice is similar, suggesting that MTC-GC synapses are functioning. Second, we show that light activation of GCL neurons strongly inhibits the MTC baseline activity (Figure 5) and increases MTC odor-evoked spike-LFP coupling in the gamma range (Figure 4). These experiments validate that GCL neurons can exert inhibition over MTCs in our experimental setup. Third, we have shown that light-activating all accessible GCL neurons has a minor effect on the MTC odor-evoked firing rates in an awake state (Dalal and Haddad, 2022), corroborating the finding that GCL neurons are unlikely to provide strong suppression to MTCs. Fourth, and most importantly, we showed that optogenetic stimulation of MTCs entrains other MTC spike times, which is achieved via the GCL neurons. This suggests that the lack of lateral suppression following MTC or GCL neuron opto-activation is not due to MTC-GC synapse blockage. That said, we cannot exclude the unlikely possibility that NMDA receptor blockage under anesthesia impairs MTC-to-MTC suppressive interactions but not the MTC-to-MTC mediated spike entrainment.”

      Figure 1A and D from Dalal & Haddad 2022 show the effect of GCL neurons opto-activation during odor stimulation on MTC firing rates in awake and anesthetized mice.

      Furthermore, the direct effect of optogenetic stimulation on GCs activity is not shown. This is particularly important because they use Gad2-cre mice with virus injection in the olfactory bulb and expression might not be restricted to granule cells and might not target all subtypes of granule cells (Wachowiak et al., 2013, https://doi.org/10.1523/JNEUROSCI.4824-12.2013). This should be considered for the interpretation of the data, particularly for the absence of an effect of GC stimulation on lateral inhibition.

      In this study we used Gad2-cre mice, and the protocol for viral transfection of GCL neurons reported in Fukunaga et al., 2014. They reported that: ‘more than 90% of Cre-expressing neurons in the GCL also expressed fluorescently tagged ArchT’. Consistently, when Fukunaga et al. expressed ChR2 in the GCL using the same viral infection as we used, they reported that: ”Light presentation in vivo resulted in rapid and strong depolarization of, and action potential (AP) discharges in, GCs (Fig. 3b), which in

      turn consistently and strongly hyperpolarized M/TCs (9 of 9 cells showed 100% AP suppression; Fig. 3c,d)”. This study shows clearly that this infection protocol is robust. Moreover, in new panels we added to the manuscript (Figure 5a-b), we show that optogenetic activation of GCL neurons strongly suppressed MTC activity during baseline conditions but not odor-evoked responses MTCs. This is consistent with the reports by Fukunaga et al, and indicates that GCL neurons are functional as they can suppress MTC baseline activity.

      Finally, since virus injection to the granule cell layer can target other GCL neuron types, we changed the reference in the text to GCL neurons (as was done in Gschwend et al., 2015) instead of ‘GCs’ when referring to GC. We replaced the image in Figure 4A, to show the expression of ChR2 is restricted to GCL neurons. That said, it is still possible that our protocol did not infect all GC subtypes. To address this, we added this line to the Discussion: “We also note that our viral transfection protocol in Gad2-Cre mice might not transfect all subtypes of GCs”

      Several conclusions are only supported by data from example neurons. The paper would benefit from a more detailed description of the analysis and the display of some additional analysis at the population level:

      - What were the criteria based on which the spots for light-activation were chosen from the receptive field map?

      In order to make this point clearer, we extended the explanation in the Methods on the selection criteria: “Spots were selected either randomly or manually. In the manual selection case, we selected spots that caused either significant or mild but insignificant inhibitory effect on the recorded MTC (e.g., local cold spots in the receptive-field map; see example in Figure 2a of example spots that were selected manually)”. We also add a reference in the text to the Methods: “see Methods for spots selection criteria”.

      - The absence of an effect on firing rate for paired stimulations is only shown for one example (Figure 1c). A quantification of the population level would be interesting.

      - Only one example neuron is shown to support the conclusion that "two different neural circuits mediate suppression and entrainment" in Figure 3. A population analysis would provide more evidence.

      Thank you very much for these comments. We added a population analysis in Figure 3. This analysis shows a dissociation between firing rate suppression and the entrainment groups (Figure 3c-d). This suggests that two different circuits mediate suppression and entrainment.

      - Only one example neuron is shown to illustrate the effect of GC stimulation on gamma rhythmicity of MTCs in Figures 4 f,g.

      In this figure, we show that the activation of subsets of GCL neurons elevated odor-evoked spike synchronization to the gamma rhythm. We thought it would be beneficial to demonstrate the change in spike entrainment following GCL neurons optogenetic activation regardless of the ongoing OB gamma oscillations, using the method presented by Fukunaga et al., 2014. However, this analysis requires that the neuron has a relatively high firing rate. As we describe in the figure legend of this panel, this neuron is probably a tufted cell based on the findings shown in Fukunaga et al., 2014 and Burton & Urban, 2021. Most of our recorded cells had a lower firing rate, which coincides with our typical recording depth, targeting mitral cells rather than tufted cells (~400µm deep). Since this analysis is shown only over a single neuron, we moved it to Supplementary Figure 4.

      - In Figure 5 and the corresponding text, "proximal" and "distal" GC activation are not clearly defined.

      We agree. Initially, we used these terms to refer to GC columns that include the recorded MTC (proximal) and columns that are away from it (distal). We decided that instead of using a coarse division, we would show the whole range of distances. We updated the analysis in Figure 5d to show the effect of GC optogenetic activation on MTC odor-evoked responses as a function of the distance from the recorded MTC.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary

      This study provides a detailed analysis and dissociation between two effects of activation of lateral inhibitory circuits in the olfactory bulb on ongoing single mitral/tufted cell (MTC) spiking activity, namely enhanced synchronization in the gamma frequency range or lateral inhibition of firing rate.

      The authors use a clever combination of single-cell recordings, optogenetics with variable spatial stimulation of MTCs and sensory stimulation in vivo, and established mathematical methods to describe changes in autocorrelation/synchronization of a single MTC's spiking activity upon activation of lateral glomerular MTC ensembles. This assay is rounded off by a gain-of-function experiment in which the authors enhance granule cell (GC) excitation to establish a causal relation between GC activation and enhanced synchronization to gamma (they had used this manipulation in their previous paper Dalal & Haddad 2022, but use a smaller illumination spot here for spatially restricted activation).

      Strengths

      This study is of high interest for olfactory processing - since it shows directly that interactions between only two selected active receptor channels are sufficient to enhance the synchronization of single neurons to gamma in one channel (and thus by inference most likely in both). These interactions are distance-independent over many 100s of µms and thus can allow for non-topographical inhibitory action across the bulb, in contrast to the center-surround lateral inhibition known from other sensory modalities.

      In my view, parallels between vision and olfaction might have been overemphasized so far, since the combinatorial encoding of olfactory stimuli across the glomerular map might require different mechanisms of lateral interaction versus vision. This result is indicative of such a major difference.

      Such enhanced local synchronization was observed in a subset of activated channel pairs; in addition, the authors report another type of lateral interaction that does involve the reduction of firing rates, drops off with distance and most likely is caused by a different circuit-mediated by PV+ neurons (PVN; the evidence for which is circumstantial).

      Weaknesses/Room for improvement

      Thus this study is an impressive proof of concept that however does not yet allow for broad generalization. Therefore the framing of results should be slightly more careful in my opinion.

      We agree with the reviewer. We copy here our response to reviewer #1, who raised the same issue.

      We agree that direct evidence of mutual synchronization between multiple recorded MTCs has not been shown in our study. Our study only shows a mechanism that can enable this synchronization. We now state this clearly in the manuscript. We relayed previous studies that tested MTC spike synchronization. Specifically, Schoppa 2006, reported that electrical OSN stimulation evokes MTC spikes synchronization in the gamma range, in-vitro. Kashiwadni et al., 1999 and Doucette et al., showed that odor-evoked MTC spike times are synchronized, in-vivo. Given these studies, we asked what is the underlying mechanism that can support such a synchronization. Our study demonstrates that activating a group of MTCs can entrain another MTC in an activity-dependent and distance-independent manner. We claim this could be the underlying mechanism for the odor-evoked synchronization as demonstrated by these previous studies.

      To make sure this is clearly stated in the manuscript we changed the title to “Activity-dependent lateral inhibition enables the synchronization of active olfactory bulb projection neurons”, and rephrased a sentence in the abstract to “This lateral synchronization was particularly effective when the recorded MTC fired at the gamma rhythm”. To further clarify this point, we made several other changes throughout the results and the discussion section.

      Along this line, the conclusions regarding two different circuits underlying lateral inhibition vs enhanced synchronization are not quite justified by the data, e.g.

      (1) The authors mention that their granule cell stimulation results in a local cold spot (l. 527 ff) - how can they then said to be not involved in the inhibition of firing rate (bullet point in Highlights)? Please elaborate further. In l.406 they also state that GCs can inhibit MTCs under certain conditions. The argument, that this stimulation is not physiological, makes sense, but still does not rule out anything. You might want to cite Aghvami et al 2022 on the very small amplitude of GC-mediated IPSPs, also McIntyre and Cleland 2015.

      We apologize for the lack of clarity. We reported that we found a local cold spot in the context of an additional experiment not presented in the manuscript and only described in the Methods section. Following the revision, we decided to add the analysis of this experiment to Figure 5. This experiment validated that optogenetic activation of GCs is potent and can affect the recorded MTC firing rates. This is particularly important as we performed all experiments under Ketamine anesthesia, which is a NMDA receptor antagonist. In this experiment, we recorded the activity of MTCs at baseline conditions (without odor presentation) under optogenetic activation of GCs. We divided the OB surface into a grid and optogenetically activated GC columns at a random order, one light spot in each trial, using light patches of size of size 330um2. We used the same light intensity as in the optogenetic GC activation during odor stimulation (reported in Figures 4-5). We show that the recorded MTC was strongly inhibited by GC light activation, mostly when activating GCs in its vicinity (within its column, i.e., local cold spot). This experiment validates that in our experimental setup, GCs can exert inhibition over MTCs at baseline conditions.

      (2) Even from the shown data, it appears that laterally increased synchronization might co-occur with lateral suppression (See also comment on Figures 1d,e and Figure S1c)

      We kindly note that the panels you referred to do not quantify the firing rate but the rhythmicity of MTC light-evoked responses. We should have explained these graphs better in the main text and not only in the Methods section. We added a panel to Supplementary Figure 1, which describes our analysis: In each of these examples, we performed a time-frequency Wavelet analysis over the average response of the neurons across trials (computed using a sliding Gaussian with a std of 2ms). The results of the Wavelet analysis allowed us to visually capture the enhanced spike alignment across trials under paired activation as a function of the stimulus duration (as, for example, in Figure 1c, middle panel). The response amplitude to light stimulation did not change in this example (shown in Figure 1c lower panel), and the spikes entrainment increased following paired activation of MTCs.

      To address the relations between lateral suppression and synchronization at the population level, we added additional analyses to Figure 3c-d.

      (3) There are no manipulations of PVN activity in this study, thus there is no direct evidence for the substrate of the second circuit.

      We completely agree with the reviewer. Using the current data, we can only claim that optogenetic activation of GCL neurons did not affect the MTC odor-evoked response. This finding is consistent with the loss-of-function experiment reported by Fukunaga et al., 2014, where GC suppression did not change odor-evoke responses in both anesthetized and awake mice. Therefore, we speculated that PVN might be a candidate OB interneuron to mediate lateral inhibition between MTCs. This hypothesis is based on their higher likelihood of interconnecting two MTCs compared with GCs (Burton, 2017). We elaborated on this in the discussion and made sure it is clearly stated as a hypothesis.

      (4) The manipulation of GC activity was performed in a transgenic line with viral transfection, which might result in a lower permeation of the population compared to the line used for optogenetic stimulation of MTCs.

      We used a previously validated protocol for optogenetic manipulation of GCs from Fukunaga et al., 2014 in order to minimize this caveat. As we cited previously from their paper, following the expression of ChR2 in the GCL, ‘Light presentation in vivo resulted in rapid and strong depolarization of, and action potential (AP) discharges in, GCs (Fig. 3b), which in turn consistently and strongly hyperpolarized M/TCs (9 of 9 cells showed 100% AP suppression; Fig. 3c,d)’. These results are consistent with the additional experiment we added to the manuscript, where optogenetic activation of GCL neurons strongly suppressed MTC activity during baseline conditions (without odor presentation). The high similarity between these two reports, in which, in the case of Fukunaga et al., GC activation was directly measured, suggests that lack of opsin expression or insufficient light intensity is unlikely to explain the lack of GCL neuron activation effect on lateral inhibition. Moreover, GCL neurons' optogenetic activation during odor stimulation increased MTC spike-LFP coupling in the gamma range. Therefore, the dissociation between the effects of GCL neurons on spike entrainment and lateral inhibition suggests that the lack of lateral inhibition following GC activation is unlikely due to low expression rates.

      In some instances, the authors tend to cite older literature - which was not yet aware of the prominent contribution of EPL neurons including PVN to recurrent and lateral inhibition of MT cells - as if roles that then were ascribed to granule cells for lack of better knowledge can still be unequivocally linked to granule cells now. For example, they should discuss Arevian et al (2006), Galan et al 2006, Giridhar et al., Yokoi et al. 1995, etc in the light of PVN action.

      Therefore it is also not quite justified to state that their result regarding the role of GCs specifically for synchronization, not suppression, is "in contrast to the field" (e.g. l.70 f.,, l.365, l. 400 ff).

      We changed several sentences in the discussion and introduction to explain that previous studies attributed lateral suppression to GC because they were not aware of the prominent contribution of EPL neurons as has been demonstrated by more recent studies (Burton 2024, Huang et al., 2016,  Kato et al., 2013, and more).

      We also toned down the statement that these findings are in contrast to the field. Instead, we state that our findings support the claim that GCs are not involved in affecting MTC odor-evoked firing rate.

      Why did the authors choose to use the term "lateral suppression", often interchangeably with lateral inhibition? If this term is intended to specifically reflect reductions of firing rates, it might be useful to clearly define it at first use (and cite earlier literature on it) and then use it consistently throughout.

      We agree and have changed the manuscript accordingly. We added the following in the introduction: “We use this phrase here to refer to a process that suppresses the firing rate of the post-synaptic neuron.”

      A discussion of anesthesia effects is missing - e.g. GC activity is known to be reportedly stronger in awake mice (Kato et al). This is not a contentious point at all since the authors themselves show that additional excitation of GCs enhances synchrony, but it should be mentioned.

      We completely agree and added a paragraph to the Discussion in this regard. Please see also the response to reviewer #1, who made a similar suggestion.

      Some citations should be added, in particular relevant recent preprints - e.g. Peace et al. BioRxiv 2024, Burton et al. BioRxiv 2024 and the direct evidence for a glutamate-dependent release of GABA from GCs (Lage-Rupprecht et al. 2020).

      We thank the reviewer for noting us these relevant recent manuscripts. We have now cited Peace et al., when discussing the spatial range of inhibition and gamma synchronization in the OB, Lage-Rupprecht et al in the context of the involvement of NMDA receptor in MTC-GC reciprocal synapse and Burton et al. when discussing PV neurons potential function.

      The introduction on the role of gamma oscillations in sensory systems (in particular vision) could be more elaborated.

      In our previous paper (Dalal & Haddad 2022) we had an elaborated introduction on the role of gamma oscillations in sensory processing, since we focused in this study in the effect of gamma synchronization on information transmission between brain regions. In the current study we looked at gamma rhythms as a mechanism that can facilitate ensemble synchronization.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This study by Dalal and Haddad analyzes two facets of cooperative recruitment of M/TCs as discerned through direct, ChR2-mediated spot stimulations:

      (1) mutual inhibition and

      (2) entrainment of action potential timing within the gamma frequency range.

      This investigation is conducted by contrasting the evoked activity elicited by a "central" stimulus spot, which induces an excitatory response alone, with that elicited when paired with stimulations of surrounding areas. Additionally, the effect of Gad2-expressing granule cells is examined.

      Based on the observed distance dependence and the impact of GC stimulations, the authors infer that mutual inhibition and gamma entrainment are mediated by distinct mechanisms.

      Strengths:

      The results presented in this study offer a nice in vivo validation of the significant in vitro findings previously reported by Arevian, Kapoor, and Urban in 2008. Additionally, the distance-dependent analysis provides some mechanistic insights.

      We thank the reviewer for his comments. Indeed, the current study provides in-vivo replication of the results reported in Arevian et al., 2008 in-vitro, and adds further insights by showing that lateral inhibition is distant-dependent. However, this is not the main focus of the current study. Following the findings reported by Dalal & Haddad 2022, the motivation for this study was to test the mechanism that allows co-activated MTCs to entrain their spike timing. By light-activating pairs of MTCs at varying distances, we detected a subset of pairs in which paired light-activation evoked activity-dependent lateral inhibition, as was reported by Arevian et al., 2008. Moreover, we think it is highly important to know that a previous result in an in-vitro study is fully reproducible in-vivo.

      Weaknesses:

      The results largely reproduce previously reported findings, including those from the authors' own work, such as Dalal and Haddad (2022), where a key highlight was "Modulating GC activities dissociates MTCs odor-evoked gamma synchrony from firing rates." Some interpretations, particularly the claim regarding the distance independence of the entrainment effect, may be considered over-interpretations.

      We kindly disagree with the reviewer. We think the current study extends rather than reproduces the findings reported in Dalal & Haddad 2022. The 2022 study mainly focused on the effect of OB gamma synchronization on odor representation in the Piriform cortex. We bidirectionally modulated the level of MTC gamma synchronization and found that it had bidirectional effects on odor representation in one of their downstream targets, the anterior piriform cortex. The current study, however, focuses on the question of how spatially distributed odor-activated MTCs can synchronize their spiking activity. Our current main finding is that paired activation of MTCs can enhance the spikes entrainment of the recorded MTC in an activity-dependent and spatially independent manner. We suggest that this mechanism is mediated by GCL neurons.

      The reviewer did not explain why he\she thinks that the distance independence of the entrainment effects is an over-interpretation. However, to make our claim more precise we added the following sentence to the corresponding results section:” Furthermore, within the distance range that we were able to measure, the increased phase-locking did not significantly correlate with the distance from the MTC”

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Minor comments:

      (1) Line 17f: "This lateral synchronization was particularly effective when both MTCs fired at the gamma rhythm, ..."

      This sentence implies a direct comparison of the simultaneously recorded firing of MTCs but I could not find evidence for this in this manuscript. I would suggest to change this.

      We thank the reviewer. The sentence was changed to “This lateral synchronization was particularly effective when the recorded MTC fired at the gamma rhythm”.

      (2) Line 43f: A brief description of what glomeruli are could help to avoid confusion for readers less familiar with the OB. The phrasing of "activated glomeruli" and "each glomerulus innervates" are somewhat misleading given that they do not contain the cell bodies of the projection neurons.

      We edited this part of the introduction so it briefly describes what glomeruli are: ‘Olfactory processing starts with the activity of odorant-activated olfactory sensory neurons. The axons of these sensory neurons terminate in one or two anatomical structures called glomeruli located on the surface of the olfactory bulb (OB). Each glomerulus is innervated by several mitral and tufted cells (MTCs), which then project the odor information to several cortical regions. ‘

      (3) Line 78ff: The text sounds as if glomeruli are activated by the light stimulation but ChR2 is expressed in MTCs, the postsynaptic component of the glomeruli. It would be clearer to refer to the stimulation as light activation of MTCs.

      We corrected this sentence to: ‘We first mapped each recorded cell's receptive field, i.e., the set of MTCs on the dorsal OB that affect its firing rates when they are light-stimulated.’

      (4) Line 90: It would be great to mention somewhere in this paragraph that you are analyzing single-unit data sorted from extracellular recordings with tungsten electrodes.

      We added that to the description of the experimental setup: ‘To investigate how MTCs interact, we expressed the light-gated channel rhodopsin (ChR2) exclusively in MTCs by crossing the Tbet-Cre and Ai32 mouse lines (Grobman et al., 2018; Haddad et al., 2013), and extracellularly recorded the spiking activity of MTCs in anesthetized mice during optogenetic stimulation using tungsten electrodes.’

      (5) Line 97: The term "delta entrainment" could be easily confused with the entrainment of MTCs to respiration in the delta frequency band. Maybe better to use a different term or stick to "change in entrainment" also used in the text.

      We completely agree. The term was changed to “change in entrainment” throughout the manuscript and figures.

      (6) Line 121f: "Light stimulation did not affect ..." . Should this be "Paired light stimulation did not affect ..."?

      Corrected, thank you.

      (7) Supplementary Figure 1a: The example is not very convincing. It looks a bit like a rhythmic bursting neuron mildly depending on the stimulation.

      This panel serves to present our light stimulation method. The potency of the light stimulation protocol can be seen in the receptive field maps.

      (8) Supplementary Figure 1c: Why is there no confidence interval for 'Paired'?

      This panel shows the power spectrum density of the average neuron response across trials computed over the entire stimulus window (100ms). We decided to remove this panel, as panel Figure 1d shows the evolution of the entrainment in time and, therefore, provides better insight into the effect.

      (9) Line 166f: "... across any light intensities". Maybe better "... for the four light intensities tested"?

      We agree, we changed the text in accordance.

      (10) Figure 2f: It would be more intuitive to have the x-axis in the same orientation as in 2e.

      Corrected, thank you.

      (11) Figure 4a: The image in this panel is identical to Figure 1a in Dalal and Haddad 2022 in Cell reports just with a different intensity. The reuse of items and data from previous publications should be indicated somewhere but I could not find it.

      We apologize for this replication. We replaced it with a photo showing a larger portion of the OB, demonstrating the restricted viral expression within the GCL.

      (12) Line 408ff: A brief explanation for the hypothesis of EPL parvalbumin interneurons as the ones mediating lateral inhibition would be great.

      We agree. We added the following paragraph to the discussion section: “We speculate that MTC-to-MTC suppression is mediated by EPL neurons, most likely the Parvalbumin neuron (PV). This hypothesis is based on their activity and connectivity properties with MTCs(Burton, 2017; Kato et al., 2013; Miyamichi et al., 2013; Burton, 2024). More studies are required to reveal how PV neurons affect MTC activity.”

      (13) Line 425ff: You show that only activity of high firing rate neurons is suppressed by lateral inhibition, whereas "low and noise MTC responses" are not affected. Wouldn't this rather support the conclusion that lateral inhibition prevents excess activity from the OB?

      We found lateral inhibition was mainly effective when the postsynaptic neurons fired at ~30-80Hz in response to light stimulation. That is, it affects MTC firing in this “intermediate” rate, and to a lesser extent when the MTC have low and very high firing rates. To prevent excess activity, one would expect a mechanism that affects more high firing rates than medium ones. This was demonstrated in Kato 2013 for PV-MTC inhibition

      (14) Line 387: "..., only ~20% of the tested MTC pairs exhibited significant lateral inhibition." This is higher than the 16% of neurons you reported to have lateral entrainment (line 100). Why do you consider the lateral inhibition as 'sparse' but the lateral entrainment as relevant?

      We apologize for this unclear statement. The papers we cited in this regard (Fantana et al., 2008; Lehmann et al., 2016; Pressler and Strowbridge, 2017) have tested lateral inhibition when the recorded MTC was not active, which resulted in a sparse MTC-MTC inhibition. We validated and replicated these findings in our setup, by systematically projecting light spots over the dorsal OB without simultaneous activation of the recorded MTC and found similar rates of largely scarce inhibition (data not shown). In this study, using spike-triggered average light stimulation protocol and paired activation of MTCs, we found higher rates of lateral inhibition, consistent with the reports by Isaacson and Strowbridge, 1998, Urban and Sakmann, 2002. We changed this paragraph to the following:

      “We found that in only ~20% of the tested MTC pairs exhibited significant lateral suppression. This rate is consistent with previous in-vitro studies that found lateral suppression between 10-20% of heterotypic MTC pairs (Isaacson and Strowbridge, 1998; Urban and Sakmann, 2002), and is higher compared to a case where the recorded MTC is not active (Lehmann et al., 2016).”

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Figure-by-figure comments:

      (1) Figures 1d,e: both these examples seem to show that the firing rate is decreased in the paired condition? From maxima at 110 to 58 Hz in d and 100 to 48 Hz in e. Please explain (see also comment on Figure S1c).

      Please see the response in the Public Review section, reviewer #2, bullet (2). We also added a panel to Supplementary Figure 1 to better explain this.

      (2) Figure 1 f The means and SEMs are hard to see. Why is the SEM bar plotted horizontally? Since this is a major finding of the paper, will there be a table provided that shows the distribution of ∆ shifts across animals?

      We apologize for the mistake. The horizontal bar was the marking of the mean. Since the SEM is small, we corrected the graph for better visualization of the SEM.

      (3) Figure 1g Showing the running average of data where there is almost none or no data points (beyond 50 Hz) seems not ideal. Is the enhanced entrainment around 40Hz significant? Perhaps the moving average should be replaced by binned data with indicated n?

      We prefer to show all data points instead of binning the data so the reader can see it all. We agree that such a wide range on the x-axis is unnecessary. We shorten this graph only to include the firing rate range in which the data points ranged.

      (4) Figure 1h Impressive result!

      Thank you!

      (5) Figure S1a: since the authors show the respiratory pattern here and there obviously was no alignment of light stimulation with inspiration, was there any correlation between the respiratory phase and efficiency of light stimulation with respect to lateral interactions?

      This is an interesting idea. In Haddad et al., 2013, figure 7, the authors performed a similar analysis, and showed that optogenetic activation of MTCs had a more pronounced effect on firing rate in the respiration phases where the neuron was less firing. However, we haven’t quantified the impact of lateral interactions with respect to the respiration phase. That being said, the data will be publicly available to test this question.

      (6) Figure S1c: Here the shift towards a lower firing rate seems to be obvious (see comment in Figures 1 d and e). Please also show the plot for Figure 1e.

      This panel shows the power spectrum density of the average neuron's response across trials computed over the entire stimulus window (100ms). We decided to remove this panel, as panel Figure 1d shows the evolution of the entrainment in time and, therefore, provides better insight into the effect.

      (7) Figure 2b: show the same plot also for pair 2? Why is it stated that there is no lateral suppression for lateral stimulation alone, if the MTC did not spike spontaneously in the first place and thus inhibition cannot be demonstrated?

      We use Figure 2b to demonstrate the effect of lateral inhibition, and in Figure 2c we detail the responses under each light intensity for both pairs. We think that showing the mean and SEM for one example is enough to give a sense of the effect, as in Figure 2c we show the average response across time together with significant assessment for each pair (panels without a p-value have no significant difference between the conditions).

      However, we agree with the comment on this specific example and therefore deleted this sentence. However, at the population level we found no inhibition when activating the lateral spots, regardless of their firing rates (shown in Supplementary Figure 2a).

      (8) Figure 2d: why is there no distance-dependent color coding for the significant data points? Or, alternatively, since the distance plot is shown in 2e, perhaps drop this information altogether? Again, the moving average is problematic.

      Distance-dependent color coding is applied to all data points in this panel. Significant data points are shown in full circles and have distance-dependent color coding, which is mainly restricted to the lower part of the distance scale (cold colors).

      We used a moving average to relate to the similar result reported in Arevian 2008.In Figure 2e, the actual distance for each data point is indicated on the x-axis.

      (9) Figure 2f: the diagonal averaging method seems to neglect a lot of the data in Figure S2b, why not use radial coordinates for averaging?

      Thank you for the great suggestion. We indeed performed radial coordinates for the averaging, and the results are more robust and better summarize the entire data.

      (10) Figure 3: These are interesting observations, but are there cumulative data on such types of pairs? Please describe and show, otherwise this can only be a supplemental observation. Regarding 3b was it always the lower light intensity that resulted in suppression and the higher in sync? Since Burton et al. 2024 have just shown that PVNs require very little input to fire!

      This figure shows several examples of entrainment and inhibition properties. As suggested, we added population analysis (Figure 3c-d). This analysis compares the firing rate changes in pairs that evoked significant suppression or entrainment. First, we found only a few pairs in which paired activation evoked both spikes entrainment and suppression. Second, the mean of firing rate changes of pairs that evoked significant entrainment (N=50, shown in Figure 1f in full circles) is significantly different from the mean of the pairs that evoked significant lateral inhibition (N=51, shown in Figure 2d in full circles).

      (11) Figure 4: This Figure and the corresponding section should be entitled "Additional GC activation... ", otherwise it might be confusing for the reader. A loss of function manipulation (local GC silencing) would be also great to have! You did this in the previous paper, why not here? Raw LFP data are not shown. In Figure 4e the reported odor response firing rate ranges only up to 40Hz, but the example in g shows a much higher frequency. Is the maximum in 4e significant? (same issue as for Figure 1g).

      We changed the phrase to ‘optogenetic GCL neurons activation’. Unfortunately, we haven’t performed experiments where we suppress GC columns. In the previous paper, we suppressed the activity of all accessible GCs, which resulted in reduced spike synchronization to the OB gamma oscillations. Silencing only the GC column is, we think, unlikely to have a substantial effect, especially if the GCs have low activity (but this needs to be tested). Furthermore, we added examples of raw LFP data for odor stimulation and odor combined with GCL column activation (see Supplementary Figure 4a).

      The instantaneous firing rate is high (~80Hz), however the firing rate values we report in Figure 4e is the average within a window of 2 seconds (the odor duration is 1.5 seconds and we extend the window to account for responses with late return to baseline). The average firing rate of this example neuron in this window was 28Hz.

      (12) Fig 5: what does "proximal" mean - does this mean stimulation of the GCs below the recorded MTC, that might actually belong to the same glomerular unit?

      Yes, by “proximal” we mean the activation of the GC in the column of the recorded MTC. However, we decided that instead of coarsely dividing the data into proximal and distal optogenetic activation of GCL neurons, we will show the data continuously to show that GC had no significant effect on MTC odor-evoked firing rates regardless of their location (Figure 5d).

      A comment on the title:

      Please tone it down: "Ensemble synchronization" is a hypothesis at this point, not directly shown in the paper. Also, the paper does not show lateral interactions between odor-activated neurons.

      We agree and have rephrased it to “Activity-dependent lateral inhibition enables the synchronization of active olfactory bulb projection neurons ”

      (1) Figure 1a, 2a scale bar missing.

      Corrected, thank you.

      (2) Figure 1 c is the "rebound" in the lateral stim trace (green) real or not significant?

      The activity during this rebound is not significantly different than the baseline activity before light stimulation.

      (3) Figure 2b legend: "lateral alone" instead of lateral?

      We appreciate the suggestion. For simplicity, we will keep it as “lateral”.

      (4) Figure 2c: some of the data plots seem to be breaking off, e.g. the blue line in the bottom third one.

      This line breaking is due to the lack of spikes in this period. The PSTHs used in all analyses result from the convolution of the spike train with a Gaussian window with a standard deviation of 50ms.

      (5) Figure 2f: Why is the x axis flopped vs 2d,e?

      This panel was mistakenly plotted that way, and was corrected.

      Comments on the text:

      Abstract - we had indicated suggestions by strike-throughs and color which are lost in the online submission system, please compare with your original text:

      Information in the brain is represented by the activity of neuronal ensembles. These ensembles are adaptive and dynamic, formed and truncated based on the animal`s experience. One mechanism by which spatially distributed neurons form an ensemble is via synchronization of their spiking activity in response to a sensory event. In the olfactory bulb, odor stimulation evokes rhythmic gamma activity in spatially distributed mitral and tufted cells (MTCs). This rhythmic activity is thought to enhance the relay of odor information to the downstream olfactory targets. However, how only specifically the odor-activated MTCs are synchronized is unknown. Here, we demonstrate that light optogenetic activation of activating one set of MTCs can gamma-entrain the spiking activity of another set. This lateral synchronization was particularly effective when both MTCs fired at the gamma rhythm, facilitating the synchronization of only the odor-activated MTCs. Furthermore, we show that lateral synchronization did not depend on the distance between the MTCs and is mediated by granule cells. In contrast, lateral inhibition between MTCs that reduced their firing rates was spatially restricted to adjacent MTCs and was not mediated by granule cells. Our findings reveal lead us to propose ? a simple yet robust mechanism by which spatially distributed neurons entrain each other's spiking activity to form an ensemble.

      Thank you. We adopted most of the changes and edited the abstract to reflect the reported results better.

      "both MTCs fired at the gamma rhythm"/this is at this point unwarranted since the mutual entrainment is not shown - tone down or present as hypothesis?

      We completely agree. This sentence was changed to “This lateral synchronization was particularly effective when the recorded MTC fired at the gamma rhythm, facilitating the synchronization of the active MTC”.

      l. 28: distance-independent instead of "spatially independent"?

      Corrected

      l. 46: are there inhibitory neurons in the ONL? Or which 6 layers are you referring to here?

      Corrected to “spanning all OB layers”.

      l. 49: "is mediated" => "likely to be mediated". Schoppa's work is in vitro and did not account for PVNs, see comment in Public Review.

      Corrected. Indeed Schoppa`s work was performed in-vitro. We cite it here since it showed that the synchronized firing of two MTC pairs depends on granule cells.

      l.52: "method"? rather "mechanism"? "specifically" instread of "only"?

      Corrected.

      l.52: perhaps more precise: a recent hypothesis is that GCs enable synchronization solely between odor-activated MTCs via an activity-dependent mechanism for GABA-release (Lage Rupprecht et al. 2020 - please cite the experimental paper here). Again. Galan has no direct evidence for GCs vs PVNs, see comment in Public Review.

      Thank you, we updated this sentence here and in the discussion and added the relevant citation.

      l. 66: spike timings instead of spike's timing?

      Corrected to spike timings

      l. 67 -71: this part could be dropped.

      We appreciate the suggestion; however, we think that it is convenient to briefly read the main results before the results section.

      l. 76 mouse instead of mice.

      Corrected.

      l. 77: for clarification: " a single MTC"?

      In some cases, we recorded more than one cell simultaneously.

      l. 89: just use "hotspot".

      Corrected

      l. 97 instead of "change", "positive change" or "increase"?

      We left the word change, since we wanted to report that the change between hotspot alone and paired stimulation was significantly higher than zero.

      l. 104: the postsyn MTC's firing rate.

      Corrected to MTC instead of MTCs

      l.108: "distributed on the OB surface" sounds misleading, perhaps "across the glomerular map"?

      Corrected.

      l. 254: "which the MTCs form with each other"- perhaps "which interconnect MTCs".

      Corrected.

      l. 270 Additional GC activation.

      Corrected to ‘optogenetic activation of GCL neurons’

      l. 284 somewhat unclear - please expand.

      Corrected to ‘This measure minimizes the bias of the neuron's firing rate on the spike-LFP synchrony value’.

      l. 371: no odors in Schoppa et al.

      Corrected to ‘It has been shown that two active MTCs can synchronize their stimulus-evoked and odor-evoked spike timings’

      l. 406 ff. good point - but where is the transition? How does this observation rule out that GCs can mediate lateral suppression?

      It is an important question. We tested two setups of GCs optogenetic activation, either column activation (in this paper) or the activation of all accessible GCs of the dorsal OB (Dalal & Haddad, 2022). Although the latter manipulation results in significant firing rate suppression, the effect of MTC suppression was relatively small in anesthetized mice and even smaller in awake mice. Optogenetically activating GCs at baseline conditions resulted in a strong suppression of only the adjacent MTCs. Taken together, we think that GCs are capable of strongly inhibit MTCs, but it is not their main function in natural olfactory sensation.

      l. 422 ff: again, this is a hypothesis, please frame accordingly.

      Corrected to ‘Activity-dependent synchronization can enables the synchronization of odor-activated MTCs that are dispersed across the glomerular map’

      l. 551 typo.

      Corrected.

      l 556 ff: Figure 2 does not show odor responses.

      Corrected.

      l 582: Mix up of above/below and low/high?

      Corrected to ‘The values in the STA map that were above or below these high and low percentile thresholds’

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Line 76: "Ai39" should be corrected to "Ai32".

      Corrected. Thank you.

      Figure Legends: The legends should describe the results rather than interpret the data. For instance, the legends for Figures 1f, g, and h contain interpretations. The authors should review all legends and revise them accordingly.

      We appreciate the comment. However, we kindly disagree. We don’t see these opening sentences as interpretations but as guidance to the reader. For example, ‘Paired stimulation increases spikes’ temporal precision’ is not an interpretation; instead, it describes the finding presented in this panel. We think that legends that only repeat what can already be deduced from the graph are not helpful and, in many cases, obsolete. Explaining what we think this graph shows is common, and we prefer it as it helps the reader.

      For Figures 1d and e, it may be beneficial to add the spectrograms for the second stimulation alone.

      We show the stimulation of the hotspot alone and when we stimulate both.<br /> The spectrogram of the lateral alone does not show anything of importance.

      Figures 1a and 2a: Please add color bars so that readers can understand the meaning of the colors plotted.

      Color bars were added.

      Figure 3: The purpose of this figure is unclear. Why does the baseline firing rate for the paired activation differ? Is this an isolated observation, or is it observed in other units as well?

      This issue has been raised also by reviewer #2. Attached here is our response to reviewer #2

      This figure shows several examples of entrainment and inhibition properties. As suggested, we added population analysis (Figure 3c-d). This analysis compares the firing rate changes in pairs that evoked significant suppression or entrainment. First, we found only a few pairs in which paired activation evoked both spikes entrainment and suppression. Second, the mean of firing rate changes of pairs that evoked significant entrainment (N=50, shown in Figure 1f in full circles) is significantly different from the mean of the pairs that evoked significant lateral inhibition (N=51, shown in Figure 2d in full circles).

      Figures 4 and 5 data seems to come from the same dataset as in Dalal and Haddad (2022) DOI: https://doi.org/10.1016/j.celrep.2022.110693. For example, the fluorescence image looks identical. If this is the case, the authors may want to state that that the image and and some of the data and analyses are reproduced.

      The recorded data shown in these figures are not reproduced from Dalal & Haddad 2022. We collected this data, using GC-columns activation instead of light activating the entire OB dorsal surface as was done in the 2022 paper.

      However, the histology image is the same and we now replaced it with a new image, which shows that the expression is restricted to the GCL.

      Figure 4d: the authors use the data plotted here to argue that the gamma entrainment is distance-independent. But there is a clear decrease over distance (e.g., delta PPC1 over 0.01 is not seen for distance beyond 1000 m). The claim of distance independence may be an over-interpretation of the data. Peace et al. (2024) also claimed that coupling via gamma oscillations occurs over a large spatial extent.

      From a statistical point of view, we can’t state that there is a dependency on distance as the correlation is insignificant (P = 0.86). PPC1 of value 0.01 can be found at 0, 500, and 700 microns. Lower values are found at far distances, but this can result from a smaller number of points. The reduced level of synchrony observed at distances above one mm could be the result of the reduced density of lateral interactions at these distances. That said, we rephrase the sentence to a more careful statement. Please see the rephrased sentence at the Public review section.

    1. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Kim et al. present a study of the neural dynamics underlying reversal learning in monkey PFC and neural networks. The concept of studying neural dynamics throughout the task (including intervening behaviour) is interesting, and the data provides some insights into the neural dynamics driving reversal learning. The modelling seems to support the analyses, but both the modelling and analyses also leave several open questions.

      Strengths:

      The paper addresses an interesting topic of the neural dynamics underlying reversal learning in PFC, using a combination of biological and simulated data. Reversal learning has been studied extensively in neuroscience, but this paper takes a step further by analysing neural dynamics throughout the trials instead of focusing on just the evidence integration epoch.

      The authors show some close parallels between the experimental data and RNN simulations, both in terms of behaviour and neural dynamics. The analyses of how rewarded and unrewarded trials differentially affect dynamics throughout the trials in RNNs and PFC were particularly interesting. This work has the potential to provide new insights into the neural underpinnings of reversal learning.

      Weaknesses:

      Conceptual:

      A substantial focus of the paper is on the within-trial dynamics associated with "intervening behaviour", but it is not clear whether that is well-modelled by the RNN. In particular, since there is little description of the experimental task, and the RNN does not have to do any explicit computation during the non-feedback parts of the trial, it is unclear whether the RNN 'non-feedback' dynamics can be expected to reasonably model the experimental data.

      Data analyses:

      While the basic analyses seem mostly sound, it seems like a potential confound that they are all aligned to the inferred reversal trial rather than the true experimental reversal trial. For example, the analyses showing that 'x_rev' decays strongly after the reversal trial, irrespective of the reward outcome, seem like they are true essentially by design. The choice to align to the inferred reversal trial also makes this trial seem 'special' (e.g. in Figure 2, Figure 5A), but it is unclear whether this is a real feature of the data or an artifact of effectively conditioning on a change in behaviour. It would be useful to investigate whether any of these analyses differ when aligned to the true reversal trial. It is also unsurprising that x_rev increases before the reversal and decreases after the reversal (it is hard to imagine a system where this is not the case), yet all of Figure 5 and much of Figure 4 is devoted to this point.

      Most of the analyses focus on the dynamics specifically in the x_rev subspace, but a major point of the paper is to say that biological (and artificial) networks may also have to do other things at different times in the trial. If that is the case, it would be interesting to also ask what happens in other subspaces of neural activity, that are not specifically related to evidence integration or choice - are there other subspaces that explain substantial variance? Do they relate to any meaningful features of the experiment?

      On a related note, descriptions of the task itself, the behaviour of the animal(s?), and the neural recordings are largely absent, making it difficult to know what we should expect from neural dynamics throughout a trial. In fact, we are not even told how many monkeys were used for the paper or which part of PFC the recordings are from.

      Modelling:

      There are a number of surprising and non-standard modelling choices made in this paper. For example, the choice to only use inhibitory neurons is non-conventional and not consistent with prior work. The authors cite van Vreeswijk & Sompolinsky's balanced network paper, but this and most other balanced networks use a combination of excitatory and inhibitory neurons.

      It also seems like the inputs are provided without any learnable input weights (and the form of the inputs is not described in any detail). This makes it hard to interpret the input-driven dynamics during the different phases of a trial, despite these dynamics being a central topic of the paper.

      It is surprising that the RNN is "trained to flip its preferred choice a few trials after the inferred scheduled reversal trial", with the reversal trial inferred by an ideal Bayesian observer. A more natural approach would be to directly train the RNN to solve the task (by predicting the optimal choice) and then investigate the emergent behaviour & dynamics. If the authors prefer their imitation learning approach (which should at least be motivated), it is also surprising that the network is trained to predict the reversal trial inferred using Bayesian smoothing instead of Bayesian filtering.

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors use high-throughput gene editing technology in larval zebrafish to address whether microexons play important roles in the development and functional output of larval circuits. They find that individual microexon deletions rarely impact behavior, brain morphology, or activity, and raise the possibility that behavioral dysregulation occurs only with more global loss of microexon splicing regulation. Other possibilities exist: perhaps microexon splicing is more critical for later stages of brain development, perhaps microexon splicing is more critical in mammals, or perhaps the behavioral phenotypes observed when microexon splicing is lost are associated with loss of splicing in only a few genes.

      A few questions remain:

      (1) What is the behavioral consequence for loss of srrm4 and/or loss-of-function mutations in other genes encoding microexon splicing machinery in zebrafish?

      (2) What is the consequence of loss-of-function in microexon splicing genes on splicing of the genes studied (especially those for which phenotypes were observed).

      (3) For the microexons whose loss is associated with substantial behavioral, morphological, or activity changes, are the same changes observed in loss-of-function mutants for these genes?

      (4) Do "microexon mutations" presented here result in the precise loss of those microexons from the mRNA sequence? E.g. are there other impacts on mRNA sequence or abundance?

      (5) Microexons with a "canonical layout" (containing TGC / UC repeats) were selected based on the likelihood that they are regulated by srrm4. Are there other parallel pathways important for regulating the inclusion of microexons? Is it possible to speculate on whether they might be more important in zebrafish or in the case of early brain development?

      Strengths:

      (1) The authors provide a qualitative analysis of splicing plasticity for microexons during early zebrafish development.

      (2) The authors provide comprehensive phenotyping of microexon mutants, addressing the role of individual microexons in the regulation of brain morphology, activity, and behavior.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) It is difficult to interpret the largely negative findings reported in this paper without knowing how the loss of srrm4 affects brain activity, morphology, and behavior in zebrafish.

      (2) The authors do not present experiments directly testing the effects of their mutations on RNA splicing/abundance.

      (3) A comparison between loss-of-function phenotypes and loss-of-microexon splicing phenotypes could help interpret the findings from positive hits.

    2. Author response:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors use high-throughput gene editing technology in larval zebrafish to address whether microexons play important roles in the development and functional output of larval circuits. They find that individual microexon deletions rarely impact behavior, brain morphology, or activity, and raise the possibility that behavioral dysregulation occurs only with more global loss of microexon splicing regulation. Other possibilities exist: perhaps microexon splicing is more critical for later stages of brain development, perhaps microexon splicing is more critical in mammals, or perhaps the behavioral phenotypes observed when microexon splicing is lost are associated with loss of splicing in only a few genes.

      A few questions remain:

      (1) What is the behavioral consequence for loss of srrm4 and/or loss-of-function mutations in other genes encoding microexon splicing machinery in zebrafish?

      It is established that srrm4 mutants have no overt morphological phenotypes and are not visually impaired (Ciampi et al., 2022).

      We chose not to generate and characterize the behavior and brain activity of srrm4 mutants for two reasons: 1) we were aware of two other labs in the zebrafish community that had generated srrm4 mutants (Ciampi et al., 2022 and Gupta et al., 2024, https://doi.org/10.1101/2024.11.29.626094; Lopez-Blanch et al., 2024, https://doi.org/10.1101/2024.10.23.619860), and 2) we were far more interested in determining the importance of individual microexons to protein function, rather than loss of the entire splicing program. Microexon inclusion can be controlled by different splicing regulators, such as srrm3 (Ciampi et al., 2022) and possibly other unknown factors. Genetic compensation in srrm4 mutants could also result in microexons still being included through actions of other splicing regulators, complicating the analysis of these regulators. We mention srrm4 in the manuscript to point out that some selected microexons are adjacent to regulatory elements expected of this pathway. We did not, however, choose microexons to mutate based on whether they were regulated by srrm4, making the characterization of srrm4 mutants disconnected from our overarching project goal.

      We are coordinating our publication with Lopez-Blanch et al. (https://doi.org/10.1101/2024.10.23.619860), which shows that srrm4 mutants also have minimal behavioral phenotypes.

      (2) What is the consequence of loss-of-function in microexon splicing genes on splicing of the genes studied (especially those for which phenotypes were observed).

      We acknowledge that unexpected changes to the mRNA could occur following microexon removal. In particular, all regulatory elements should be removed from the region surrounding the microexon, as any remaining elements could drive the inclusion of unexpected exons that result in premature stop codons.

      First, we will clarify our generated mutant alleles by adding a figure that details the location of the gRNA cut sites in relation to the microexon, its predicted regulatory elements, and its neighboring exons.

      Second, we will experimentally determine whether the mRNA was modified as expected for a subset of mutants with phenotypes.

      Third, we will further emphasize in the manuscript that these observed phenotypes are extremely mild compared to those observed in over one hundred protein-truncating mutations we have assessed in previous and ongoing work. We currently show one mutant, tcf7l2, which we consider to have strong neural phenotypes, and we will expand this comparison in the revision. In our study of 132 genes linked to schizophrenia (Thyme et al., 2019), we established a signal cut-off for whether a mutant would be designated as having a neural phenotype, and we classify this set of microexon mutants in this context. Far stronger phenotypes are expected of loss-of-function alleles for microexon-containing genes, as we showed in Figure S1 of this manuscript in addition to our published work.

      (3) For the microexons whose loss is associated with substantial behavioral, morphological, or activity changes, are the same changes observed in loss-of-function mutants for these genes?

      We had already included two explicit comparisons of microexon loss with a standard loss-of-function allele, one with a phenotype and one without, in Figure S1 of this manuscript. We will make the conclusions and data in this figure more obvious in the main text.

      Beyond the two pairs we had included, Lopez-Blanch et al. (https://doi.org/10.1101/2024.10.23.619860) describes mild behavioral phenotypes for a microexon removal for kif1b, and we already show developmental abnormalities for the kif1b loss-of-function allele (Figure S1).

      Additionally, we can draw expected conclusions from the literature, as some genes with our microexon mutations have been studied as typical mutants in zebrafish or mice. We will modify our manuscript to include a discussion of these mutants.

      (4) Do "microexon mutations" presented here result in the precise loss of those microexons from the mRNA sequence? E.g. are there other impacts on mRNA sequence or abundance?

      See response to point 2. We will experimentally determine whether the mRNA was modified as expected for a subset of mutants with phenotypes.

      (5) Microexons with a "canonical layout" (containing TGC / UC repeats) were selected based on the likelihood that they are regulated by srrm4. Are there other parallel pathways important for regulating the inclusion of microexons? Is it possible to speculate on whether they might be more important in zebrafish or in the case of early brain development?

      The microexons were not selected based on the likelihood that they were regulated by srrm4. We will clarify the manuscript regarding this point. There are parallel pathways that can control the inclusion of microexons, such as srrm3 (Ciampi et al., 2022). It is well-known that loss of srrm3 has stronger impacts on zebrafish development than srrm4 (Ciampi et al., 2022). The goal of our work was not to investigate these splicing regulators, but instead was to determine the individual importance of these highly conserved protein changes.

      Strengths:

      (1) The authors provide a qualitative analysis of splicing plasticity for microexons during early zebrafish development.

      (2) The authors provide comprehensive phenotyping of microexon mutants, addressing the role of individual microexons in the regulation of brain morphology, activity, and behavior.

      We thank the reviewer for their support. The pErk brain activity mapping method is highly sensitive, significantly minimizing the likelihood that the field has simply not looked hard enough for a neural phenotype in these microexon mutants. In our published work (Thyme et al., 2019), we show that brain activity can be drastically impacted without manifesting in differences in those behaviors assessed in a typical larval screen (e.g., tcf4, cnnm2, and more).

      Weaknesses:

      (1) It is difficult to interpret the largely negative findings reported in this paper without knowing how the loss of srrm4 affects brain activity, morphology, and behavior in zebrafish.

      See response to point 1.

      (2) The authors do not present experiments directly testing the effects of their mutations on RNA splicing/abundance.

      See response to point 3.

      (3) A comparison between loss-of-function phenotypes and loss-of-microexon splicing phenotypes could help interpret the findings from positive hits.

      See response to point 2.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The manuscript from Calhoun et al. uses a well-established screening protocol to investigate the functions of microexons in zebrafish neurodevelopment. Microexons have gained prominence recently due to their enriched expression in neural tissues and misregulation in autism spectrum disease. However, screening of microexon functionality has thus far been limited in scope. The authors address this lack of knowledge by establishing zebrafish microexon CRISPR deletion lines for 45 microexons chosen in genes likely to play a role in CNS development. Using their high throughput protocol to test larval behaviour, brain activity, and brain structure, a modest group of 9 deletion lines was revealed to have neurodevelopmental functions, including 2 previously known to be functionally important.

      Strengths:

      (1) This work advances the state of knowledge in the microexon field and represents a starting point for future detailed investigations of the function of 7 microexons.

      (2) The phenotypic analysis using high-throughput approaches is sound and provides invaluable data.

      We thank the reviewer for their support.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) There is not enough information on the exact nature of the deletion for each microexon.

      To clarify the nature of our mutant alleles, we will add a figure that details the location of the gRNA cut sites in relation to the microexon, its predicted regulatory elements, and its neighboring exons.

      (2) Only one deletion is phenotypically analysed, leaving space for the phenotype observed to be due to sequence modifications independent of the microexon itself.

      We will experimentally determine whether the mRNA is impacted in unanticipated ways for a subset of mutants with mild phenotypes (see the point 2 response to reviewer 1). We also have already compared the microexon removal to a loss-of-function mutant for two lines (Figure S1), and we will make that outcome more obvious as well as increasing the discussion of the expected phenotypes from typical loss-of-function mutants (see point 3 response to reviewer 1).

      In addition, our findings for three microexon mutants (ap1g1, vav2, and vti1a) are corroborated by Lopez-Blanch et al. (https://doi.org/10.1101/2024.10.23.619860).

      Unlike protein-coding truncations, clean removal of the microexon and its regulatory elements is unlikely to yield different phenotypic outcomes if independent lines are generated (with the exception of genetic background effects). When generating a protein-truncating allele, the premature stop codon can have different locations and a varied impact on genetic compensation. In previous work (Capps et al., 2024), we have observed different amounts of nonsense-mediated decay-induced genetic compensation (El-Brolosy, et al., 2019) depending on the location of the mutation. As they lack variable premature stop codons (the expectation of a clean removal), two mutants for the same microexons should have equivalent impacts on the mRNA.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This paper sought to understand how microexons influence early brain function. By selectively deleting a large number of conserved microexons and then phenotyping the mutants with behavior and brain activity assays, the authors find that most microexons have minimal effects on the global brain activity and broad behaviors of the larval fish-- although a few do have phenotypes.

      Strengths:

      The work takes full advantage of the scale that is afforded in zebrafish, generating a large mutant collection that is missing microexons and systematically phenotyping them with high throughput behaviour and brain activity assays. The work lays an important foundation for future studies that seek to uncover the likely subtle roles that single microexons will play in shaping development and behavior.

      We thank the reviewer for their support.

      Weaknesses:

      The work does not make it clear enough what deleting the microexon means, i.e. is it a clean removal of the microexon only, or are large pieces of the intron being removed as well-- and if so how much? Similarly, for the microexon deletions that do yield phenotypes, it will be important to demonstrate that the full-length transcript levels are unaffected by the deletion. For example, deleting the microexon might have unexpected effects on splicing or expression levels of the rest of the transcript that are the actual cause of some of these phenotypes.

      To clarify the nature of our mutant alleles, we will add a figure that details the location of the gRNA cut sites in relation to the microexon, its predicted regulatory elements, and its neighboring exons.

      We will experimentally determine whether the mRNA is impacted in unanticipated ways for a subset of mutants with mild phenotypes (see the point 2 response to reviewer 1).

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Previous studies have shown that treatment with 17α-estradiol (a stereoisomer of the 17β-estradiol) extends lifespan in male mice but not in females. The current study by Li et al, aimed to identify cell-specific clusters and populations in the hypothalamus of aged male rats treated with 17α-estradiol (treated for 6 months). This study identifies genes and pathways affected by 17α-estradiol in the aged hypothalamus.

      Strengths:

      Using single-nucleus transcriptomic sequencing (snRNA-seq) on hypothalamus from aged male rats treated with 17α-estradiol they show that 17α-estradiol significantly attenuated age-related increases in cellular metabolism, stress, and decreased synaptic activity in neurons.<br /> Moreover, sc-analysis identified GnRH as one of the key mediators of 17α-estradiol's effects on energy homeostasis. Furthermore, they show that CRH neurons exhibited a senescent phenotype, suggesting a potential side effect of the 17α-estradiol. These conclusions are supported by supervised clustering by neuropeptides, hormones, and their receptors.

      Weaknesses:

      However, the study has several limitations that reduce the strength of the key claims in the manuscript. In particular:

      (1) The study focused only on males and did not include comparisons with females. However, previous studies have shown that 17α-estradiol extends lifespan in a sex-specific manner in mice, affecting males but not females. Without the comparison with the female data, it's difficult to assess its relevance to the lifespan.

      (2) It's not known whether 17α-estradiol leads to lifespan extension in male rats similar to male mice. Therefore, it is not possible to conclude that the observed effects in the hypothalamus, are linked to the lifespan extension.

      (3) The effect of 17α-estradiol on non-neuronal cells such as microglia and astrocytes is not well described (Fig.1). Previous studies demonstrated that 17α-estradiol reduces microgliosis and astrogliosis in the hypothalamus of aged male mice. Current data suggest that the proportion of oligo, and microglia were increased by the drug treatment, while the proportions of astrocytes were decreased. These data might suggest possible species differences, differences in the treatment regimen, or differences in drug efficiency. This has to be discussed.

      A more detailed analysis of glial cell types within the hypothalamus in response to drug should be provided.

      (4) The conclusion that CRH neurons are going into senescence is not clearly supported by the data. A more detailed analysis of the hypothalamus such as histological examination to assess cellular senescence markers in CRH neurons, is needed to support this claim.

      Comments on revisions:

      Some of the concerns were addressed in this revised version, and the authors responded and addressed study design limitations in both sexes/ages.

      However, there are still some concerns that were not sufficiently addressed:

      While the term "senescent" was changed to "stressed," some histological/ cellular validation of this phenotype is still needed.

      Some discussion on the sex-specific effects of 17α-estradiol in the hypothalamus is still required. Previous studies in mice demonstrated that 17α-estradiol reduced hypothalamic microgliosis and astrogliosis in male but not female UM-HET3 mice.

      Additionally, the provided analysis on astrocytes and microglia is superficial.

    2. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Previous studies have shown that treatment with 17α-estradiol (a stereoisomer of the 17β-estradiol) extends lifespan in male mice but not in females. The current study by Li et al, aimed to identify cell-specific clusters and populations in the hypothalamus of aged male rats treated with 17α-estradiol (treated for 6 months). This study identifies genes and pathways affected by 17α-estradiol in the aged hypothalamus.

      Strengths:

      Using single-nucleus transcriptomic sequencing (snRNA-seq) on the hypothalamus from aged male rats treated with 17α-estradiol they show that 17α-estradiol significantly attenuated age-related increases in cellular metabolism, stress, and decreased synaptic activity in neurons.

      Thanks.

      Moreover, sc-analysis identified GnRH as one of the key mediators of 17α-estradiol's effects on energy homeostasis. Furthermore, they show that CRH neurons exhibited a senescent phenotype, suggesting a potential side effect of the 17α-estradiol. These conclusions are supported by supervised clustering by neuropeptides, hormones, and their receptors.

      Thanks.

      Weaknesses:

      However, the study has several limitations that reduce the strength of the key claims in the manuscript. In particular:

      (1) The study focused only on males and did not include comparisons with females. However, previous studies have shown that 17α-estradiol extends lifespan in a sex-specific manner in mice, affecting males but not females. Without the comparison with the female data, it's difficult to assess its relevance to the lifespan.

      This study was originally designed based on previous findings indicating that lifespan extension is only effective in males, leading to the exclusion of females from the analysis. The primary focus of our research was on the transcriptional changes and serum endocrine alterations induced by 17α-estradiol in aged males compared to untreated aged males. We believe that even in the absence of female subjects, the significant effects of 17α-estradiol on metabolism in the hypothalamus, synapses, and endocrine system remain evident, particularly regarding the expression levels of GnRH and testosterone. Notably, lower overall metabolism, increased synaptic activity, and elevated levels of GnRH and testosterone are strong indicators of health and well-being in males, supporting the validity of our primary conclusions. However, including female controls would enhance the depth of our findings. If female controls were incorporated, we propose redesigning the sample groups to include aged male control, aged female control, aged female treated, aged male treated, as well as young male control, young male treated, young female control, and young female treated. We regret that we cannot provide this data in the short term. Nevertheless, we believe this presents a valuable avenue for future research on this topic. In this study, we emphasize the role of 17α-estradiol in overall metabolism, synaptic function, GnRH, and testosterone in aged males and underscore the importance of supervised clustering of neuropeptide-secreting neurons in the hypothalamus.

      (2) It is not known whether 17α-estradiol leads to lifespan extension in male rats similar to male mice. Therefore, it is not possible to conclude that the observed effects in the hypothalamus, are linked to the lifespan extension.

      Thanks for the reminding. 17α-estradiol was reported to extend lifespan in male rats similar to male mice (PMID: 33289482). We have added the valuable reference to introduction in the new version.  

      (3) The effect of 17α-estradiol on non-neuronal cells such as microglia and astrocytes is not well-described (Figure 1). Previous studies demonstrated that 17α-estradiol reduces microgliosis and astrogliosis in the hypothalamus of aged male mice. Current data suggest that the proportion of oligo, and microglia were increased by the drug treatment, while the proportions of astrocytes were decreased. These data might suggest possible species differences, differences in the treatment regimen, or differences in drug efficiency. This has to be discussed.

      We have reviewed reports describing changes in cell numbers following 17α-estradiol treatment in the brain, using the keywords "17α-estradiol," "17alpha-estradiol," and "microglia" or "astrocyte." Only a limited amount of data was obtained. We found one article indicating that 17α-estradiol treatment in Tg (AβPP(swe)/PS1(ΔE9)) model mice resulted in a decreased microglial cell number compared to the placebo (AβPP(swe)/PS1(ΔE9) mice), but this change was not significant when compared to the non-transgenic control (PMID: 21157032). The transgenic AβPP(swe)/PS1(ΔE9) mouse model may differ from our wild-type aging rat model in this context.

      Moreover, the calculation of cell numbers was based on visual observation under a microscope across several brain tissue slices. This traditional method often yields controversial results. For example, oligodendrocytes in the corpus callosum, fornix, and spinal cord have been reported to be 20-40% more numerous in males than in females based on microscopic observations (PMID: 16452667). In contrast, another study found no significant difference in the number of oligodendrocytes between sexes when using immunohistochemistry staining (PMID: 18709647). Such discrepancies arising from traditional observational methods are inevitable.

      We believe the data presented in this article are reliable because the cell number and cell ratio data were derived from high-throughput cell counting of the entire hypothalamus using single-cell suspension and droplet wrapping (10x Genomics).

      (4) A more detailed analysis of glial cell types within the hypothalamus in response to drugs should be provided.

      We provided more enrichment analysis data of differentially expressed genes between Y, O, and O.T in microglia and astrocytes in Figure 2—figure supplement 3. In this supplemental data, we found unlike that in neurons, Micro displayed lower levels of synapse-related cellular processes in O.T. compared to O.

      (5) The conclusion that CRH neurons are going into senescence is not clearly supported by the data. A more detailed analysis of the hypothalamus such as histological examination to assess cellular senescence markers in CRH neurons, is needed to support this claim.

      We also noticed the inappropriate claim and we have changed "senescent phenotype" to "stressed phenotype" and "abnormal phenotype" in abstract and in results.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Li et al. investigated the potential anti-ageing role of 17α-Estradiol on the hypothalamus of aged rats. To achieve this, they employed a very sophisticated method for single-cell genomic analysis that allowed them to analyze effects on various groups of neurons and non-neuronal cells. They were able to sub-categorize neurons according to their capacity to produce specific neurotransmitters, receptors, or hormones. They found that 17α-Estradiol treatment led to an improvement in several factors related to metabolism and synaptic transmission by bringing the expression levels of many of the genes of these pathways closer or to the same levels as those of young rats, reversing the ageing effect. Interestingly, among all neuronal groups, the proportion of Oxytocin-expressing neurons seems to be the one most significantly changing after treatment with 17α-Estradiol, suggesting an important role of these neurons in mediating its anti-ageing effects. This was also supported by an increase in circulating levels of oxytocin. It was also found that gene expression of corticotropin-releasing hormone neurons was significantly impacted by 17α-Estradiol even though it was not different between aged and young rats, suggesting that these neurons could be responsible for side effects related to this treatment. This article revealed some potential targets that should be further investigated in future studies regarding the role of 17α-Estradiol treatment in aged males.

      Strengths:

      (1) Single-nucleus mRNA sequencing is a very powerful method for gene expression analysis and clustering. The supervised clustering of neurons was very helpful in revealing otherwise invisible differences between neuronal groups and helped identify specific neuronal populations as targets.

      Thanks.

      (2) There is a variety of functions used that allow the differential analysis of a very complex type of data. This led to a better comparison between the different groups on many levels.

      Thanks.

      (3) There were some physiological parameters measured such as circulating hormone levels that helped the interpretation of the effects of the changes in hypothalamic gene expression.

      Thanks.

      Weaknesses

      (1) One main control group is missing from the study, the young males treated with 17α-Estradiol.

      Given that the treatment period lasts six months, which extends beyond the young male rats' age range, we aimed to investigate the perturbation of 17α-Estradiol on the normal aging process. Including data from young males could potentially obscure the treatment's effects in aged males due to age effects, though similar effects between young and aged animals may exist. Long-term treatment of hormone may exert more developmental effects on the young than the old. Consequently, we decided to exclude this group from our initial sample design. We apologize for this omission.

      (2) Even though the technical approach is a sophisticated one, analyzing the whole rat hypothalamus instead of specific nuclei or subregions makes the study weaker.

      The precise targets of 17α-Estradiol within the hypothalamus remain unresolved. Selecting a specific nucleus for study is challenging. The supervised clustering method described in this manuscript allows us to identify the more sensitive neuron subtypes influenced by 17α-Estradiol and aging across the entire hypothalamus, without the need to isolate specific nuclei in a disturbed hypothalamic environment.

      (3) Although the authors claim to have several findings, the data fail to support these claims. You may mean the claim as the senescent phenotype in Crh neuron induced by 17a-estradiol.

      Thanks. We have changed the "senescent phenotype" to "stressed phenotype"  or "abnormal phenotype" in the abstract and results to avoid such claim.

      (4) The study is about improving ageing but no physiological data from the study demonstrated such a claim with the exception of the testes histology which was not properly analyzed and was not even significantly different between the groups.

      The primary objective of this study is to elucidate the effects of 17α-Estradiol on the endocrine system in the aging hypothalamus; exploring anti-aging effects is not the main focus. From the characteristics of the aging hypothalamus, we know that down-regulated GnRH and testosterone levels, along with elevated mTOR signaling, are indicators of aging in these organs (PMID: 37886966, PMID: 37048056, PMID: 22884327). The contrasting signaling networks related to metabolism and synaptic processes significantly differentiate young and aging hypothalami, and 17α-Estradiol helps rebalance these networks, suggesting its potential anti-aging effects.

      (5) Overall, the study remains descriptive with no physiological data to demonstrate that any of the effects on hypothalamic gene expression are related to metabolic, synaptic, or other functions.

      The study focuses on investigating cellular responses and endocrine changes in the aging hypothalamus induced by 17α-estradiol, utilizing single-nucleus RNA sequencing (snRNA-seq) and a novel data mining methodology to analyze various neuron subtypes. It is important to note that this study does not mainly aim to explore the anti-aging effects. Consequently, we have revised the claim in the abstract from “the effects of 17α-estradiol in anti-aging in neurons” to “the effects of 17α-estradiol on aging neurons.” We observed that the lower overall metabolism and increased expression levels of cellular processes in the synapses align with findings previously reported regarding 17α-estradiol. To address the lack of physiological data and the challenges in measuring multiple endocrine factors due to their volatile nature, we employed several bidirectional Mendelian analyses of various genome-wide association study (GWAS) data related to these serum endocrine factors to identify their mutual causal effects.

      Reviewing Editor Comment:

      Based on the Public Reviews and Recommendations for Authors, the Reviewers strongly recommend that revisions include an experimental demonstration of the physiological effects of the treatment on ageing in rats as well as the CRH-senescence link. Additional analysis of the glia would greatly strengthen the study, as would inclusion of females and young male controls. The important point was also raised that the work linking 17a-estradiol was performed in mice, and the link with lifespan in rats is not known. Discussion of this point is recommended.

      We acknowledge that 17α-estradiol has been reported to extend lifespan in male rats, similar to findings in male mice (PMID: 33289482), and we have noted this in the Introduction. We apologize for not conducting further experiments to validate this point.

      Additionally, we have revised the description of the phenotype of senescent CRH neurons to “stressed phenotype” without carrying out further experiments to confirm the senescent phenotype. To provide more clarity on the performance of glial cells during treatment, we have included additional enrichment analysis data of differentially expressed genes among young (Y), old (O), and old treated (O.T) microglia and astrocytes in Figure 2—figure supplement 3. Notably, the behavior of microglia contrasts with that of total neurons concerning synapse-related cellular processes. We apologize for being unable to include female and young controls in this study.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors)

      General comments:

      (1) The manuscript is very hard to read. Proofreading and editing by software or a professional seems necessary. The words "enhanced", "extensive" etc. are not always used in the right way.

      Thanks for the suggestion. We have revised the proofreading and editing. The words "enhanced" and "extensive" were also revised in most sentences.

      (2) The numbers of animals and samples are not well explained. Is it 9 rats overall or per group? If there are 8 testes samples per group, should we assume that there were 4 rats per group? The pooling of the hypothalamic how was it done? Were all the hypothalamic from each group pooled together? A small table with the animals per group and the samples would help.

      We appreciate your reminder regarding the initial mistake in our manuscript preparation. In the preliminary submission, we reported 9 rats based solely on sequencing data and data mining. The revised version (v1) now includes additional experimental data, with an effective total of 12 animals (4 per group). Unfortunately, we overlooked updating this information in the v1 submission. We have since added detailed information in the Materials and Methods sections: Animals, Treatment and Tissues, and snRNA-seq Data Processing, Batch Effect Correction, and Cell Subset Annotation.

      (3) The Clustering is wrong. There are genes in there that do not fall into any of the 3 categories: Neurotransmitters, Receptors, Hormones.

      We have changed the description to “Vast majority of these subtypes were clustered by neuropeptides, hormones, and their receptors within all the neurons”.

      (4) The coloring of groups in the graphs is inconsistent. It must be more homogeneous to make it easier to identify.

      We have changed the colors of groups in Fig. 1D to make the color of cell clusters consistent in Fig. 1A-D.

      (5) The groups c1-c4 are not well explained. How did the authors come up with these?

      We have added more descriptions of c1-c4 in materials and methods in the new version.

      (6) In most cases it's not clear if the authors are talking about cell numbers that express a certain mRNA, the level of expression of a certain mRNA, or both. They need to do a better job using more precise descriptions instead of using general terms such as "signatures", "expression profiles", "affected neurons" etc. It is very hard to understand if the number of neurons is compared between the groups or the gene expression.

      We have changed the "signatures" to "gene signatures" to make it more accurate in meaning. The "affected neurons" were also changed to "sensitive neurons". But sorry that we were not able to find better alternatives to the "expression profiles".

      (7) Sometimes there are claims made without justification or a reference. For example, the claim about the senescence of CRH neurons due to the upregulation of mitochondrial genes and downregulation of adherence junction genes (lines 326-328) should be supported by a reference or own findings.

      The "senescence" here is not appropriate. We have changed it to "stressed phenotype" or "aberrant changes" in abstract and results.

      (8) Young males treated with Estradiol as a control group is necessary and it is missing.

      Your suggestion is appreciated; however, the treatment duration for aged mice (O.T) was set at 6 months, while the young mice were only 4 months old. This disparity makes it challenging to align treatment timelines for the young animals. The primary aim of this study is to investigate the perturbation of 17α-estradiol on the aging process, and any distinct effects due to age effect observed in young males might complicate our understanding of its role in aged males, though similar endocrine effects may exist in the young animals. Long-term treatment of hormone may exert more developmental effects on the young than the old. Therefore, we made the decision to exclude the young samples in our initial study design. We apologize for any confusion this may have caused.

      Specific Comments:

      Line 28: "elevated stresses and decreased synaptic activity": Please make this clearer. Can't claim changes in synaptic activity by gene expression.

      We have changed it to "the expression level of pathways involved in synapse".

      Line 32: "increased Oxytocin": serum Oxytocin.

      We have added the “serum”.

      Line 52 - 54: Any studies from rats?

      Thanks. In rats there is also reported that 17α-estradiol has similar metabolic roles as that in mice (PMID: 33289482) and we have added it to the refences. It’s very useful for this manuscript.

      Line 62 - 65: It wasn't investigated thoroughly in this paper so why was it suggested in the introduction?

      We have deleted this sentence as being suggested.

      Line 70: "synaptic activity" Same as line 28.

      We have changed it to "pathways involved in synaptic activity".

      Line 79: Why were aged rats caged alone and young by two? Could that introduce hypothalamic gene expression effects?

      The young males were bred together in peace. But the aged males will fight and should be kept alone.

      Lines 78, 99, 109-110: It is not clear how many animals per group were used and how many samples per group were used separately and/or grouped. Please be more specific.

      We have added these information to Materials and methods/Animals, treatment and tissues and Materials and methods/snRNA-seq data processing, batch effect correction, and cell subset annotation.

      Line 205: "in O" please add "versus young.".

      We have changed accordingly.

      Line 207: replace "were" with "was" .

      We have alternatively changed the "proportion" to "proportions".

      Line 208: replace "that" with "compared to" and after "in O.T." add "compared to?"

      We have changed accordingly.

      Line 223: "O.T." compared to what? Figure?

      We have changed it accordingly.

      Line 227: Figure?

      We have added (Figure 1E) accordingly.

      Line 229: "synaptic activity" Same as line 28.

      We have revised it.

      Line 235: "synaptic activity" and "neuropeptide secretion" Same as line 28.

      We have revised it.

      Line 256:" interfered" please revise.

      We changed to "exerted".

      Line 263: "on the contrary" please revise.

      We have changed "on the contrary" to "opposite".

      Line 270: "conversed" did you mean "conserved"?

      We have changed "conversed" to "inversed".

      Line 296-298: Please explain. Why would these be side effects?

      It’s hard to explain, therefore, we deleted the words "side effects".

      Line 308: "synaptic activity" Same as line 28.

      We have changed it to "expression levels of synapse-related cellular processes".

      Line 314: "and sex hormone secretion and signaling"Isn't this expected?

      Yes, it is expected. We have added it to the sentence "and, as expected, sex hormone secretion and signaling".

      Line 325-328: Why is this senescence? Reference?

      We have added “potent” to it.

      Line 360-361: This doesn't show elevated synaptic activity.

      "elevated synaptic activity" was changed to "The elevated expression of synapse-related pathways"

      Line 363-364: "Unfortunately" is not a scientific expression and show bias.

      We have changed it to "Notably".

      Line 376: Similar as above.

      Yes, we have change it to "in contrast".

      Lines 382-385: This is speculation. Please move to discussion.

      Sorry for that. We think the causal effects derived from MR result is evidence. As such, we have not changed it.

      Line 389: Please revise "hormone expressing".

      We have changed it accordingly.

      Line 401: Isn't this effect expected due to feedback inhibition of the biochemical pathway? Please comment.

      The binding capability of 17alpha-estradiol to estrogen receptors and its role in transcriptional activation remain core questions surrounded by controversy. Earlier studies suggest that 17alpha-estradiol exhibits at least 200 times less activity than 17beta-estradiol (PMID: 2249627, PMID: 16024755). However, recent data indicate that 17alpha-estradiol shows comparable genomic binding and transcriptional activation through estrogen receptor α (Esr1) to that of 17beta-estradiol (PMID: 33289482). Additionally, there is evidence that 17alpha-estradiol has anti-estrogenic effects in rats (PMID: 16042770). These findings imply possible feedback inhibition via estrogen receptors. Furthermore, 17alpha-estradiol likely differs from 17beta-estradiol due to its unique metabolic consequences and its potential to slow aging in males, an effect not attributed to 17beta-estradiol. For instance, neurons are also targets of 17alpha-estradiol, with Esr1 not being the sole target (PMID: 38776045). Nevertheless, the precise effective targets of 17alpha-estradiol are still unresolved.

      Line 409: This conclusion cannot be made because the effect is not statistically significant. Can say "trend" etc.

      Thanks for the recommendation. We have added "potential" in front of the conclusion.

      Line 426: "suggesting" please revise.

      sorry, it’s a verb.

      Lines 426-428: This is speculation. Please move to discussion.

      The elevated GnRH levels in O.T., observed through EIA analysis, suggest a deduction regarding the direct causal effects of 17alpha-estradiol on various endocrine factors related to feeding, energy homeostasis, reproduction, osmotic regulation, stress response, and neuronal plasticity through MR analysis. Thus, we have not amended our position. We apologize for any confusion.

      Lines 431-432: improved compared to what?

      The statement have been revised as " The most striking role of 17α-estradiol treatment revealed in this study showed that HPG axis was substantially improved in the levels of serum Gnrh and testosterone".

      Line 435: " Estrogen Receptor Antagonists". Please revise.

      Thanks for the recommendation. We have changed it to "estrogen receptor antagonists".

      Line 438" "Secrete". Please revise.

      Sorry, it is "secret".

      Lines 439-449: None of this has been demonstrated. Please remove these conclusions.

      These are not conclusions but rather intriguing topics for discussion. Given the role of 17alpha-estradiol in promoting testosterone and reducing estradiol levels in males, we believe it is worthwhile to explore the potential application of 17alpha-estradiol in increasing testosterone levels in aged males, particularly those with hypogonadism.

      Lines 450-457: No females were included in this study. Why? Also, why is this discussed? It is relevant but doesn't belong in this manuscript since it was not studied here.

      Testosterone levels are crucial for male health, while estradiol levels are essential for the health and fertility of females. Previous studies have demonstrated that 17α-estradiol does not contribute to lifespan extension in females. Given the effects of 17α-estradiol on males—specifically, its role in promoting testosterone and reducing estradiol levels—we believe it is important to discuss the potential sex-biased effects of 17α-estradiol, as this could inform future investigations. Therefore, we have chosen not to make changes to this section.

      Lines 458-459: This was not demonstrated in this article. Please remove.

      We have restricted the claim to "expression level of energy metabolism in hypothalamic neurons".

      Line 464: "Promoted lifespan extension" Not demonstrated. Please remove.

      At the end of the sentence it was revised as "which may be a contributing factor in promoting lifespan extension".

      Line 466: "Showed" No.

      The whole sentence was deleted in the new version.

      Line 483: "the sex-based effects". Not studied here.

      Since the changes in testosterone levels are significant in this dataset and this hormone has a sex-biased nature, we find it worthwhile to suggest this as a topic for future investigation. We have added "which needs further verification in the future" at the end of this sentence.

    1. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      In this study, the authors sought to elucidate the neural mechanisms underlying the role of Naa10 in neurodevelopmental disruptions with a focus on its role in the hippocampus. The authors use an impressive array of techniques to identify a chain of events that occurs in the signaling pathway starting from Naa10 acetylating Btbd3 to regulation of F-actin dynamics that are fundamental to neurite outgrowth. They provide convincing evidence that Naa10 acetylates Btbd3, that Btbd3 facilitates CapZb binding to F-actin in a Naa10 acetylation-dependent manner, and that this CapZb binding to F-actin is key to neurite outgrowth. Besides establishing this signaling pathway, the authors contribute novel lists of Naa10 and Btbd3 interacting partners, which will be useful for future investigations into other mechanisms of action of Naa10 or Btbd3 through alternative cell signaling pathways. The evidence presented for an anxiety-like behavioral phenotype as a result of Naa10 dysfunction is mixed and tenuous, and assays for the primary behaviors known to be altered by Naa10 mutations in humans were not tested. As such, behavioral findings and their translational implications should be interpreted with caution. Finally, while not central to the main cell signaling pathway delineated, the characterization of brain region-specific and cell maturity of Naa10 expression patterns was presented in few to single animals and not quantified, and as such should also be interpreted with caution. On a broader level, these findings have implications for neurodevelopment and potentially, although not tested here, synaptic plasticity in adulthood, which means this novel pathway may be fundamental for brain health.

      Summarized list of minor concerns

      (1) The early claims of the manuscript are supported by very small sample sizes (often 1-3) and/or lack of quantification, particularly in Figures S1 and 1.

      (2) Evidence is insufficient for CA1-specific knockdown of Naa10.

      (3) The relationship between the behaviors measured, which centered around mood, and Ogden syndrome, was not clear, and likely other behavioral measures would be more translationally relevant for this study. Furthermore, the evidence for an anxiety-like phenotype was mixed.

      (4) Btbd3 is characterized by the authors as an OCD risk gene, but its status as such is not well supported by the most recent, better-powered genome-wide association studies than the one that originally implicated Btbd3. However, there is evidence that Btbd3 expression, including selectively in the hippocampus, is implicated in OCD-relevant behaviors in mice.

      (5) The reporting of the statistics lacks sufficient detail for the reader to deduce how experimental replicates were defined.

    2. Author response:

      eLife Assessment<br /> This valuable study suggests that Naa10, an N-α-acetyltransferase with known mutations that disrupt neurodevelopment, acetylates Btbd3, which has been implicated in neurite outgrowth and obsessive-compulsive disorder, in a manner that regulates F-actin dynamics to facilitate neurite outgrowth. While the study provides promising insights and biochemical, co-immunoprecipitation, and proteomic data that enhance our understanding of protein N-acetylation in neuronal development, the evidence supporting larger claims is incomplete. Nonetheless, the implications of these findings are noteworthy, particularly regarding neurodevelopmental and psychiatric conditions tied to altered expression of Naa10 or Btbd3.

      Thank you very much for recognizing our study, carefully reviewing our work, and providing insightful comments and constructive criticism!

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      The manuscript examines the role of Naa10 in cKO animals, in immortalized neurons, and in primary neurons. Given that Naa10 mutations in humans produce defects in nervous system function, the authors used various strategies to try to find a relevant neuronal phenotype and its potential molecular mechanism.

      This work contains valuable findings that suggest that the depletion of Naa10 from CA1 neurons in mice exacerbates anxiety-like behaviors. Using neuronal-derived cell lines authors establish a link between N-acetylase activity, Btbd3 binding to CapZb, and F-actin, ultimately impinging on neurite extension. The evidence demonstrating this is in most cases incomplete, since some key controls are missing and clearly described or simply because claims are not supported by the data. The manuscript also contains biochemical, co-immunoprecipitation, and proteomic data that will certainly be of value to our knowledge of the effects of protein N--acetylation in neuronal development and function.

      Thanks! It would be appreciated if the Reviewer could point out in the public review which experiment lacks a control group.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      In this study, the authors sought to elucidate the neural mechanisms underlying the role of Naa10 in neurodevelopmental disruptions with a focus on its role in the hippocampus. The authors use an impressive array of techniques to identify a chain of events that occurs in the signaling pathway starting from Naa10 acetylating Btbd3 to regulation of F-actin dynamics that are fundamental to neurite outgrowth. They provide convincing evidence that Naa10 acetylates Btbd3, that Btbd3 facilitates CapZb binding to F-actin in a Naa10 acetylation-dependent manner, and that this CapZb binding to F-actin is key to neurite outgrowth. Besides establishing this signaling pathway, the authors contribute novel lists of Naa10 and Btbd3 interacting partners, which will be useful for future investigations into other mechanisms of action of Naa10 or Btbd3 through alternative cell signaling pathways.

      Thank you very much for recognizing our study!

      The evidence presented for an anxiety-like behavioral phenotype as a result of Naa10 dysfunction is mixed and tenuous, and assays for the primary behaviors known to be altered by Naa10 mutations in humans were not tested. As such, behavioral findings and their translational implications should be interpreted with caution.

      (1) For the anxiety-like behavioral phenotype, we provided a paragraph titled “Naa10 and stress-induced anxiety” in the Discussion section of the text: “Our investigations revealed that hippocampal CA1-KO of Naa10 did not exhibit significant differences in the open field test (Figure S1K) but led to anxiety-like behavior in mice in the elevated plus maze (EPM) test (Figure 1A). This disparity might be attributed to the specific design of the EPM test, which is tailored to elicit a conflict between an animal's inclination to explore and its fear of open spaces and elevated areas. This distinction implies that Naa10 might play a role in stress responses within the emotional regulation circuitry, particularly in navigating potentially threatening and anxiety-provoking environments.” The open field test offers a less challenging, open environment that primarily promotes exploratory behavior. We agree that additional assays, such as the light-dark box test, would be helpful in clarifying the issue.

      (2) We agree that the behavioral findings and their translational implications should be interpreted with caution. The primary neurological behaviors known to be altered by Naa10 mutations in humans include intellectual disability and autism-like syndrome with defective emotional control. These behaviors are influenced by many factors, including defects in the hippocampal CA1. Thus, we tested hippocampal CA1 Naa10-KO mice using the Y-maze, tail suspension test, open field test, and elevated plus maze (EPM). However, only the EPM results were affected, while the other tests showed no significant changes. It should be noted that our study employed a postnatal, CA1-specific Naa10 conditional knockout (cKO) model driven by Camk2a-Cre, which selectively depletes Naa10 from hippocampal CA1 neurons after birth. In contrast, Naa10 mutations in human patients involve global effects and impact multiple brain regions from the embryonic stage, leading to a broader spectrum of phenotypes. The limited disruption in our model likely explains the absence of learning and memory deficits and the incomplete recapitulation of the full range of patient phenotypes. Furthermore, Naa10 knockout may not produce the same effects as Naa10 mutations. Our current study is primarily intended to explore the physiological function of Naa10 in hippocampal function.

      (3) We will replace all instances of “anxiety behavior” with “anxiety-like behavior.”

      Finally, while not central to the main cell signaling pathway delineated, the characterization of brain region-specific and cell maturity of Naa10 expression patterns was presented in few to single animals and not quantified, and as such should also be interpreted with caution.

      We agree that we should provide additional Naa10 immunostaining data from more than three WT and hippocampal CA1 Naa10-KO mouse brains, as well as quantify data such as the silver staining and Light Sheet Fluorescence Microscopy results presented in Figures 1C and 1D, respectively. Nevertheless, the current report presents consistent results across different mice used for various assays. For example, Figures 1B-D, with three different assays, each demonstrate that Naa10-cKO reduces neurite complexity in vivo.

      On a broader level, these findings have implications for neurodevelopment and potentially, although not tested here, synaptic plasticity in adulthood, which means this novel pathway may be fundamental for brain health.

      Thank you very much again for recognizing our study!

      Summarized list of minor concerns

      (1) The early claims of the manuscript are supported by very small sample sizes (often 1-3) and/or lack of quantification, particularly in Figures S1 and 1.

      We agree that we should provide additional Naa10 immunostaining data from more than three WT and hippocampal CA1 Naa10-KO mouse brains, as well as quantify data such as the silver staining and Light Sheet Fluorescence Microscopy results presented in Figures 1C and 1D, respectively. Nevertheless, the current report presents consistent results across different mice used for various assays. For example, Figures 1B-D, with three different assays, each demonstrate that Naa10-cKO reduces neurite complexity in vivo.

      (2) Evidence is insufficient for CA1-specific knockdown of Naa10.

      The Camk2a-Cre mice used in this study were derived from Dr. Susumu Tonegawa’s laboratory. According to the referenced paper, this strain restricts Cre/loxP recombination to the forebrain, with particularly high efficiency in the hippocampal CA1. Consistently, our data show that Naa10 was almost completely absent in the CA1 but partially depleted in the DG of the Naa10-cKO mice (Figure S1F in the text). Similar results were observed in a different pair of

      (3) The relationship between the behaviors measured, which centered around mood, and Ogden syndrome, was not clear, and likely other behavioral measures would be more translationally relevant for this study. Furthermore, the evidence for an anxiety-like phenotype was mixed.

      (1) For the anxiety-like behavioral phenotype, we provided a paragraph titled “Naa10 and stress-induced anxiety” in the Discussion section of the text: “Our investigations revealed that hippocampal CA1-KO of Naa10 did not exhibit significant differences in the open field test (Figure S1K) but led to anxiety-like behavior in mice in the elevated plus maze (EPM) test (Figure 1A). This disparity might be attributed to the specific design of the EPM test, which is tailored to elicit a conflict between an animal's inclination to explore and its fear of open spaces and elevated areas. This distinction implies that Naa10 might play a role in stress responses within the emotional regulation circuitry, particularly in navigating potentially threatening and anxiety-provoking environments.” The open field test offers a less challenging, open environment that primarily promotes exploratory behavior. We agree that additional assays, such as the light-dark box test, would be helpful in clarifying the issue.

      (2) We agree that the behavioral findings and their translational implications should be interpreted with caution. The primary neurological behaviors known to be altered by Naa10 mutations in humans include intellectual disability and autism-like syndrome with defective emotional control. These behaviors are influenced by many factors, including defects in the hippocampal CA1. Thus, we tested hippocampal CA1 Naa10-KO mice using the Y-maze, tail suspension test, open field test, and elevated plus maze (EPM). However, only the EPM results were affected, while the other tests showed no significant changes. It should be noted that our study employed a postnatal, CA1-specific Naa10 conditional knockout (cKO) model driven by Camk2a-Cre, which selectively depletes Naa10 from hippocampal CA1 neurons after birth. In contrast, Naa10 mutations in human patients involve global effects and impact multiple brain regions from the embryonic stage, leading to a broader spectrum of phenotypes. The limited disruption in our model likely explains the absence of learning and memory deficits and the incomplete recapitulation of the full range of patient phenotypes. Furthermore, Naa10 knockout may not produce the same effects as Naa10 mutations. Our current study is primarily intended to explore the physiological function of Naa10 in hippocampal function.

      (3) We will replace all instances of “anxiety behavior” with “anxiety-like behavior.”

      (4) Btbd3 is characterized by the authors as an OCD risk gene, but its status as such is not well supported by the most recent, better-powered genome-wide association studies than the one that originally implicated Btbd3. However, there is evidence that Btbd3 expression, including selectively in the hippocampus, is implicated in OCD-relevant behaviors in mice.

      Thanks for clarifying the issue!

      (5) The reporting of the statistics lacks sufficient detail for the reader to deduce how experimental replicates were defined.

      We believe we have provided sufficient detail for readers to deduce how experimental replicates were defined in each corresponding figure legend. It would be appreciated if the Reviewer could point out which specific figures lack sufficient details.

    1. Author response:

      Reviewer #1:

      Summary:<br /> In this manuscript, Bisht et al address the hypothesis that protein folding chaperones may be implicated in aggregopathies and in particular Tau aggregation, as a means to identify novel therapeutic routes for these largely neurodegenerative conditions.

      The authors conducted a genetic screen in the Drosophila eye, which facilitates the identification of mutations that either enhance or suppress a visible disturbance in the nearly crystalline organization of the compound eye. They screened by RNA interference all 64 known Drosophila chaperones and revealed that mutations in 20 of them exaggerate the Tau-dependent phenotype, while 15 ameliorated it. The enhancer of the degeneration group included 2 subunits of the typically heterohexameric prefoldin complex and other co-translational chaperones.

      In a previous paper, we identified 95 Drosophila chaperones (Raut et al., 2017). We request that “all 64 known Drosophila chaperones” be replaced with “64 out of 95 known Drosophila chaperones” to make it factually correct.

      Strengths:

      Regarding this memory defect upon V377M tau expression. Kosmidis et al (2010) pmid: 20071510, demonstrated that pan-neuronal expression of TauV377M disrupts the organization of the mushroom bodies, the seat of long-term memory in odor/shock and odor/reward conditioning. If the novel memory assay the authors use depends on the adult brain structures, then the memory deficit can be explained in this manner.

      If the mushroom bodies are defective upon TauV377M expression does overexpression of Pfdn5 or 6 reverse this deficit? This would argue strongly in favor of the microtubule stabilization explanation.

      We agree that the disruptive organization of the mushroom body may cause memory deficits upon hTauV337M expression and that expression of Pfdn5 or Pfdn6 could reverse the deficits. One possible mechanism by which overexpression of Pfdn5/6 could rescue the Tau-induced memory deficits may be due to the stabilization of microtubules in the mushroom bodies.

      Proposed revision: We will assess if Tau-induced mushroom body disruption can be rescued with the overexpression of Pfdn5 or Pfdn6.

      Weakness:

      What is unclear however is how Pfdn5 loss or even overexpression affects the pathological Tau phenotypes. Does Pfdn5 (or 6) interact directly with TauV377M? Colocalization within tissues is a start, but immunoprecipitations would provide additional independent evidence that this is so.

      Our data suggests that Pfdn5 stabilizes neuronal microtubules by directly associating with it, and loss of Pfdn5 exacerbates Tau-phenotypes by destabilizing microtubules. However, as the reviewer notes, analysis of direct interaction between Pfdn5 and hTau<sup>V337M</sup> might provide further insights into the mechanism of Pfdn5 and Tau-aggregation.

      Proposed revision: We will perform colocalization analysis and coimmunoprecipitation to ask if Pfdn5 colocalizes and directly interacts with Tau.

      Does Pfdn5 loss exacerbate TauV377M phenotypes because it destabilizes microtubules, which are already at least partially destabilized by Tau expression? Rescue of the phenotypes by overexpression of Pfdn5 agrees with this notion.

      However, Cowan et al (2010) pmid: 20617325 demonstrated that wild-type Tau accumulation in larval motor neurons indeed destabilizes microtubules in a Tau phosphorylation-dependent manner. So, is TauV377M hyperphosphorylated in the larvae?? What happens to TauV377M phosphorylation when Pfdn5 is missing and presumably more Tau is soluble and subject to hyperphosphorylation as predicted by the above?

      Proposed revisions: We will overexpress Pfdn5 or Pfdn6 with hTau<sup>V337M</sup> and ask if microtubule disruption caused by hTau<sup>V337M</sup> is rescued. Further, we will analyze the phospho-Tau levels in controls and Pfdn5 mutant background.

      Expression of WT human Tau (which is associated with most common Tauopathies other than FTDP-17) as Cowan et al suggest has significant effects on microtubule stability, but such Tau-expressing larvae are largely viable. Will one mutant copy of the Pfdn5 knockout enhance the phenotype of these larvae?? Will it result in lethality? Such data will serve to generalize the effects of Pfdn5 beyond the two FDTP-17 mutations utilized.

      Proposed revision: We will incorporate data about the effect of heterozygous mutation of Pfdn5 on the lethality and synaptic phenotypes associated with the hTau<sup>WT</sup> and hTau<sup>V337M</sup> in the revised manuscript.

      Does the loss of Pfdn5 affect TauV377M (and WTTau) levels?? Could the loss of Pfdn5 simply result in increased Tau levels? And conversely, does overexpression of Pfdn5 or 6 reduce Tau levels?? This would explain the enhancement and suppression of TauV377M (and possibly WT Tau) phenotypes. It is an easily addressed, trivial explanation at the observational level, which if true begs for a distinct mechanistic approach.

      We thank the reviewer for suggesting an alternate model for the Pfdn5 function. We will perform the Western blot analysis to assess Tau<sup>WT</sup> and Tau<sup>V337M</sup> levels in the absence of Pfdn5 or animals coexpressing Tau and Pfdn5. We will incorporate these data and conclusions in the revised manuscript.

      Finally, the authors argue that TauV377M forms aggregates in the larval brain based on large puncta observed especially upon loss of Pfdn5. This may be so, but protocols are available to validate this molecularly the presence of insoluble Tau aggregates (for example, pmid: 36868851) or soluble Tau oligomers as these apparently differentially affect Tau toxicity. Does Pfdn5 loss exaggerate the toxic oligomers and overexpression promotes the more benign large aggregates??

      We will perform the Tau solubility assay in control, in the absence of Pfdn5 or animals coexpressing Tau and Pfdn5. Moreover, we will also ask if the large Tau puncta formed in the absence of Pfdn5 are soluble oligomers or stable aggregates. We have found that the coexpression of Tau and Pfdn5 does not result in the formation of  Tau aggregates. We will incorporate these and other relevant data in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Bisht et al detail a novel interaction between the chaperone, Prefoldin 5, microtubules, and tau-mediated neurodegeneration, with potential relevance for Alzheimer's disease and other tauopathies. Using Drosophila, the study shows that Pfdn5 is a microtubule-associated protein, which regulates tubulin monomer levels and can stabilize microtubule filaments in the axons of peripheral nerves. The work further suggests that Pfdn5/6 may antagonize Tau aggregation and neurotoxicity. While the overall findings may be of interest to those investigating the axonal and synaptic cytoskeleton, the detailed mechanisms for the observed phenotypes remain unresolved and the translational relevance for tauopathy pathogenesis is yet to be established. Further, a number of key controls and important experiments are missing that are needed to fully interpret the findings.The major weakness relates to the experiments and claims of interactions with Tau-mediated neurodegeneration. In particular, it is unclear whether knockdown of Pfdn5 may cause eye phenotypes independent of Tau. Further, the GMR>tau phenotype appears to have been incorrectly utilized to examine age-dependent, neurodegeneration.

      We have consistently found the progression of eye degeneration in the population of animals expressing Tau<sup>V337M</sup>, measured as the number of fused ommatidia/total number of ommatidia, with age. A few other studies have also shown age-dependent progressive degeneration in Drosophila retinal axons or lamina (Iijima-Ando et al., 2012; Sakakibara et al., 2018). We appreciate other studies that have proposed hTau-induced eye degeneration as a developmental defect (Malmanche et al., 2017; Sakakibara et al., 2023).

      Proposed revision: a) We will analyze the age-dependent neurodegeneration in the adult brain to further support our main conclusion that Pfdn5 ameliorates hTauV337M-induced progressive neurodegeneration.

      b) We have used three independent Pfdn5 RNAi lines (the RNAi's target different regions of Pfdn5) – all of which enhance the Tau phenotypes. The knockdown of any of these RNAi lines with GMR-Gal4 does not give detectable eye phenotypes. We will include these data in the revised manuscript.

      This manuscript argues that its findings may be relevant to thinking about mechanisms and therapies applicable to tauopathies; however, this is premature given that many questions remain about the interactions from Drosophila, the detailed mechanisms remain unresolved, and absent evidence that tau and Pfdn may similarly interact in the mammalian neuronal context. Therefore, this work would be strongly enhanced by experiments in human or murine neuronal culture or supportive evidence from analyses of human data.

      Proteome analysis of Alzheimer's brain tissue shows that the Pfdn5 level is reduced in patients (Askenazi et al., 2023; Tao et al., 2020). Moreover, the Pfdn5 expression level was found to be reduced in the blood samples from AD patients (Ji et al., 2022). Another study further validates the age-dependent reduction of Pfdn5 in the tauopathy transgenic murine model (Kadoyama et al., 2019). Together, these reports highlight a potential link between Pfdn5 levels and tauopathies. We will revise the manuscript to reflect these findings in more detail.

      References

      Askenazi, M., Kavanagh, T., Pires, G., Ueberheide, B., Wisniewski, T., and Drummond, E. (2023). Compilation of reported protein changes in the brain in Alzheimer's disease. Nat Commun 14, 4466. 10.1038/s41467-023-40208-x.

      Iijima-Ando, K., Sekiya, M., Maruko-Otake, A., Ohtake, Y., Suzuki, E., Lu, B., and Iijima, K.M. (2012). Loss of axonal mitochondria promotes tau-mediated neurodegeneration and Alzheimer's disease-related tau phosphorylation via PAR-1. PLoS Genet 8, e1002918. 10.1371/journal.pgen.1002918.

      Ji, W., An, K., Wang, C., and Wang, S. (2022). Bioinformatics analysis of diagnostic biomarkers for Alzheimer's disease in peripheral blood based on sex differences and support vector machine algorithm. Hereditas 159, 38. 10.1186/s41065-022-00252-x.

      Kadoyama, K., Matsuura, K., Takano, M., Maekura, K., Inoue, Y., and Matsuyama, S. (2019). Changes in the expression of prefoldin subunit 5 depending on synaptic plasticity in the mouse hippocampus. Neurosci Lett 712, 134484. 10.1016/j.neulet.2019.134484.

      Malmanche, N., Dourlen, P., Gistelinck, M., Demiautte, F., Link, N., Dupont, C., Vanden Broeck, L., Werkmeister, E., Amouyel, P., Bongiovanni, A., et al. (2017). Developmental Expression of 4-Repeat-Tau Induces Neuronal Aneuploidy in Drosophila Tauopathy Models. Sci Rep 7, 40764. 10.1038/srep40764.

      Raut, S., Mallik, B., Parichha, A., Amrutha, V., Sahi, C., and Kumar, V. (2017). RNAi-Mediated Reverse Genetic Screen Identified Drosophila Chaperones Regulating Eye and Neuromuscular Junction Morphology. G3 (Bethesda) 7, 2023-2038. 10.1534/g3.117.041632.

      Sakakibara, Y., Sekiya, M., Fujisaki, N., Quan, X., and Iijima, K.M. (2018). Knockdown of wfs1, a fly homolog of Wolfram syndrome 1, in the nervous system increases susceptibility to age- and stress-induced neuronal dysfunction and degeneration in Drosophila. PLoS Genet 14, e1007196. 10.1371/journal.pgen.1007196.

      Sakakibara, Y., Yamashiro, R., Chikamatsu, S., Hirota, Y., Tsubokawa, Y., Nishijima, R., Takei, K., Sekiya, M., and Iijima, K.M. (2023). Drosophila Toll-9 is induced by aging and neurodegeneration to modulate stress signaling and its deficiency exacerbates tau-mediated neurodegeneration. iScience 26, 105968. 10.1016/j.isci.2023.105968.

      Tao, Y., Han, Y., Yu, L., Wang, Q., Leng, S.X., and Zhang, H. (2020). The Predicted Key Molecules, Functions, and Pathways That Bridge Mild Cognitive Impairment (MCI) and Alzheimer's Disease (AD). Front Neurol 11, 233. 10.3389/fneur.2020.00233.

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study utilized publicly available Hi-C data to ensemble a comprehensive set of breast cancer cell lines (luminal, Her2+, TNBC) with varying metastatic features to answer whether breast cancer cells would acquire organ-specific features at the 3D genome level to metastasize to that specific organ. The authors focused on lung metastasis and included several controls as the comparison including normal mammary lines, normal lung epithelial lines, and lung cancer cell lines. Due to the lower resolution at 250KB binning size, the authors only addressed the compartments (A for active compartment and B for inactive compartment) not the other 3D organization of the genome. They started by performing clustering and PCA analysis for the compartment identity and discovered that this panel of cell lines could be well separated based on Her2 and epithelial-mesenchymal features according to the compartment identity. While correlating with the transcriptomic changes, the authors noticed the existence of concordance and divergence between the compartment changes and transcriptomic changes. The authors then switched gears to tackle the core question of metastatic organotropism to the lung. They discovered a set of "lung permissive compartment changes" and concluded that "lung metastatic breast cancer cell lines acquire lung-like genome architecture" and "organotropic 3D genome changes match target organ more than an unrelated organ". To prove the latter point, the authors enlisted an additional non-breast cancer cell line (prostate cancer) in the setting of brain metastasis. This is a piece of pure dry computational work without wet bench experiments.

      Strengths:

      The authors embarked on an ambitious journey to seek the answer regarding 3D genome changes predisposing to metastatic organotropism. The authors succeeded in the assembly of a comprehensive panel of breast cancer cell lines and the aggregation of the 3D genome structure data to conduct a hypothesis-driven computation analysis. The authors also achieved in including proper controls representing normal non-cancerous epithelium and the end organ of interest. The authors did well in the citation of relevant references in 3D genome organization and EMT.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The authors should clearly indicate how they determine the patterns of spread of the breast cancer cell lines being utilized in this manuscript. How did the authors arrive at the conclusion that certain cell lines would be determined as "localized spread" and "metastatic tropism to the lung"? This definition is crucial, and I will explain why.

      Todd Golub's team from the Broad Institute of MIT and Harvard published "A metastasis map of human cancer cell lines" to exhaustively create a first-generation metastasis map (MetMap) that reveals organ-specific patterns of metastasis. (By the way, this work was not cited in the reference in this manuscript.) The MetMap Explorer (https://depmap.org/metmap/vis-app/index.html) is a public resource that could be openly accessed to visualize the metastatic potential of each cell line as determined by the in vivo barcoding approach as described in the MetMap paper in the format of petal plots. 5 organs were tested in the MetMap paper, including brain, lung, liver, kidney, and bone. The authors would discover that some of the organ-specific metastasis patterns defined in the MetMap Explorer would be different from the authors' classification. For example, the authors defined MCF7 as a line as lung metastatic, and rightly so the MetMap charted a signal towards lung with low penetrance and low metastatic potential. The authors defined ZR751 as a line with localized spread, however, the MetMap charted a signal towards the kidney with low penetrance and low metastatic potential, the signal strength similar to the lung metastasis in MCF7. A similar argument could be made for T47D. The TNBC line MDA-MB-231 is indeed highly metastatic, however, in MetMap data, its metastasis is not only specific to the lung but towards all 5 organs with high penetrance and metastatic potential. The 2 lung cancer cell lines mentioned in this study, A549 and H460, the authors defined them as localized spread to the lung. However, the MetMap data clearly indicated that A549 and H460 are highly metastatic to all 5 organs with high penetrance and high metastatic potential.

      Since results will vary among different experimental models testing metastatic organotropism, (intra-cardiac injection was the metastasis model being adopted in the MetMap), the authors should state more clearly which experimental model system served as the basis for their definition of organ-specific metastasis. In my opinion, this is the most crucial first step for this entire study to be sound and solid.

      (2) Figure 1b: The authors found that "MDA-MB-231 cells were grouped with the lung carcinoma cells. This implies that the genome organization of this cell line is closer to that of lung cells than to other breast epithelial cell lines.". In fact, another TNBC line BT549 was also clustered under the same clade. So this clade consisted of normal-like and highly metastatic lines. Therefore, the authors should be mindful of the fact that the compartment features might not directly link to metastasis (or even metastatic organotropism).

      (3) Figure 3: In the text, the authors stated, "To further investigate this result, we examined the transcription status of genes that changed compartment across the EMT spectrum and, conversely, the compartment status of genes that changed transcription (Fig. 3b, c, and d)". However, it was not apparent in the figure that the cell lines were arranged according to an EMT spectrum. Also, the clustering heatmaps did not provide sufficient information regarding the genes with concordant/divergent compartments vs transcription changes. It would be more informative if the authors could spend more effort in annotating these genes/pathways.

      (4) Figure 4: The title of the subheading of this section was 'Lung metastatic breast cancer cell lines acquire lung-like genome architecture". Echoing my comments in point 1, I am a bit hesitant to term it as "lung metastatic" but rather "metastatic' in general since cell lines such as MDA-MD-231 do metastasize to other organs as well. However, I do get the point that the definition of "lung metastasis" is derived from the common metastasis features among the cell lines here (MCF7, T47D, SKBR3, MDA-MB-231).

      There might be another argument about whether the "lung" carcinoma cell lines can be considered "localized" since they are also capable of metastasizing to other organs. In a way, what the authors probably were trying to leverage here is the "tissue" identity of that organ. Having said this, in addition to showing the "lung permissive changes", the authors should show the "breast identity conservation" as well. Because this section started to deal with the concept of "tissue/lineage identify", the authors should also clarify whether these breast cancer cell lines capable of making lung metastasis are also preserving their original tissue identity from the compartment features (which would most likely be the case).

      (5) Rest of the sections: The authors started to claim that the organ-specific metastasis permissive compartmental features mimic the destinated end organ. The authors utilized additional non-breast cancer cell lines (prostate cancer cell lines LNCaP as localized and DU145 as brain metastatic) in brain metastasis to strengthen this claim. (DU145 in MetMap again is highly metastatic to lung, brain, and kidney). However, this makes one wonder that for cell lines that are capable of metastasizing to multiple organ sites (eg. MDA-MB-231, DU145, A459, H460), does it mean that they all acquire the permissive features for all these organs? This scenario is clinically relevant in Stage 4 patients who often present with not only one metastatic lesion in one single organ but multiple metastatic lesions in more than one organ (eg. concomitant liver and lung metastasis). Do the authors think that there might be different clones having different tropism-permissive 3D genome features or there might be evolutionary trajectory in this?

      In my opinion, to further prove this point, the authors might need to consider doing in vivo experiments to collect paired primary and organ-specific metastatic samples to look at the 3D genome changes.

      (6) Technically, the study utilized public Hi-C data without generating new Hi-C data. The resolution of the Hi-C data for compartments was set at 250KB as the binning size indicating that the Hi-C data was at lower resolution so it might not be ideal to address other 3D genome architecture changes such as TADs or long-range loops. It is therefore unknown whether there might be permissive TAD/loop changes associated with organotropism and this is the limitation of this study.

      (7) In the final sentence of the discussion the authors stated "Overall, our results suggest that genome spatial compartment changes can help encode a cell state that favors metastasis (EMT)". The "metastasis (EMT)" was in fact not clearly linked inside the manuscript. The authors did not provide a strong link between metastasis and EMT in their result description. It is also unclear whether the EMT-associated compartment identity would also correlate with the organotropic compartment identity.

    1. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study by Dorn et al. from Dr. Henrike Scholz's group investigates the function of serotonin signaling in state-dependent feeding control for protein and sugar intake. Using a dominant-negative serotonin transporter to block serotonin reuptake and optogenetics to activate serotoninergic neurons, the authors identified that serotonin released from a small group of Sert3-expressing neurons specifically reduces sucrose consumption of the fed files but not in the starved flies. Conversely, blocking serotonin reuptake in broad serotonergic neurons increases yeast consumption only in starved flies but does not affect fed flies. These results suggest prolonged serotonin signals may suppress sucrose appetite in fed flies while promoting protein intake in starved flies.

      Although the phenotypes presented are intriguing and fundamental to animal fitness, the data in its current form is insufficient to support the proposed mechanisms underlying the state-dependent diet control by serotonin signals. Specifically, the authors should carefully analyze the requirement of serotonin by showing the efficiency of the serotonin reuptake blockade caused by the dominant-negative serotonin and validating the requirement of serotonin in the optogenetic activation of Sert3-expressing neurons. Additionally, the conclusions based on the overexpressed Sert3::gfp transgene should be retrieved as the overexpression affects sucrose consumption. Therefore, I recommend some alternative interpretations and approaches below for authors to verify the current form of conclusions.

      Strengths:

      The authors identified the state-dependent diet control for sucrose and yeast intake regulated by a restricted population of serotonin neurons expressing Sert3.

      Weaknesses:

      The data only partially supports most conclusions. Specifically, findings based on the use of the transgene Sert3::GFP lack sufficient rigor, as the authors overlooked potential overexpression effects.

      Major issues

      (1) The authors try to distinguish the motivation to feed on sucrose or protein in fed or starved conditions using "sucrose appetite" and "protein hunger", respectively. However, appetite and hunger should be synonymous in the current context. When specifying protein hunger, readers will expect the craving for protein in the protein-deprived situation. In the current study, starved flies were prepared by starvation on wet tissues so the flies are supposed to be hungry for sugar and protein. To avoid confusion, "sucrose appetite in fed flies" and "protein appetite in starved flies" are better descriptions.

      (2) In Figure 1A-1I (lines 141-142), it remains unclear whether additional serotonergic neurons are required or if the serotonergic neurons labeled exclusively by R50H05-Gal4 and Tph-Gal4 are necessary to regulate yeast consumption in starved flies. The overlapping expressions of these two drivers with the Sert3-Gal4 make it hard to distinguish these two possibilities.

      (3) The data in Figure 1L-1M suggests that the serotonin-dependent regulation in yeast consumption of starved flies is suppressed by sucrose supplementation. However, the neurons required for yeast consumption remain undefined due to the overlapping expression. This result implies that the neurons labeled by R50H05-Gal4 and Tph-Gal4 influence both sucrose and yeast consumption but not specific to yeast.

      (4) The regulatory relationship between insulin receptors and serotonin signaling in sucrose appetite remains unclear. How do the authors interpret the result that both the constitutively active and dominant-negative forms of the insulin receptor (InR) reduce sucrose appetite in Figure 4? One possibility is that insulin receptors are involved in two parallel pathways to regulate sucrose consumption that converge to the same phenotype. However, the insulin receptor (InR) pathways can still be independent of the serotonin signaling pathway despite showing a comparable reduction of sucrose consumption in fed flies. This issue should be discussed further following lines 229-231.

      (5) The quantification of Figure 5 should be revised. First, as the transgene Sert3::GFP affects sucrose consumption, quantifying the transgene signals may not explain its endogenous function. Second, the quantification lacks a Gal4 expression control using an untagged fluorescent marker, preferably a different color so that the authors can quantify it in the same individual as the comparison. Lastly, it is hard to be convinced that the distance between two layers represents the broad expression of Sert3::GFP in response to insulin receptor alterations. Quantifying the area size of each layer with fixed imaging conditions such as the intervals of brain sections and the laser intensity may be a better alternative approach.

      (6) The conclusions drawn based on the Sert3::GFP transgene failed to explain the endogenous function of the serotonin transporter Sert3 in regulating sucrose consumption. Expressing the constitutive-active form of the insulin receptor in Sert3-expressing neurons reduces the total sucrose consumption of fed flies in Figure 4A, which appears inconsistent with the fly line with an additional Sert3::GFP expression shown in Figures 6F, where the suppression of sucrose consumption is not shown for the normalized sucrose intake. This inconsistency suggests that Sert3::GFP transgene itself affects sucrose consumption.

      (7) In lines 324-326, the authors should investigate whether IR60b neurons are indeed the downstream of serotoninergic neurons SE1 to regulate sucrose consumption in fed flies. First, synaptic connections could be confirmed by additional approaches. Following this, the authors could demonstrate that the knockdown of serotonin receptors in IR60b neurons eliminates the suppression in sucrose consumption induced by the activation of Sert3-expressing neurons or by the expression of the dominant-negative serotonin transporter in fed flies.

    1. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This manuscript reports high-resolution functional MRI data and MEG data revealing additional mechanistic information about an established paradigm studying how foveal regions of the primary visual cortex (V1) are involved in processing peripheral visual stimuli. Because of the retinotopic organization of V1, peripheral stimuli should not evoke responses in the regions of V1 that represent stimuli in the center of the visual field (the fovea). However, functional MRI responses in foveal regions do reflect the characteristics of peripheral visual stimuli - this is a surprising finding first reported in 2008. The present study uses fMRI data with sub-millimeter resolution to study how responses at different depths in the foveal gray matter do or don't reflect peripheral object characteristics during 2 different tasks: one in which observers needed to make detailed judgments about object identity, and one in which observers needed to make more coarse judgments about object orientation. FMRI results reveal interesting and informative patterns in these two conditions. A follow-on MEG study yields information about the timing of these responses. Put together, the findings settle some questions in the field and add new information about the nature of visual feedback to V1.

      Strengths:

      (1) Rigorous and appropriate use of "laminar fMRI" techniques.

      (2) The introduction does an excellent job of contextualizing the work.

      (3) Control experiments and analyses are designed and implemented well

      Weaknesses:

      (1) While not necessarily a weakness, I do not fully agree with the description of the 2 kinds of feedback information as "low-order" and "high-order". I understand the motivation to do this - orientation is typically considered a low-level visual feature. But when it's the orientation of an entire object, not a single edge, orientation can only be defined after the elements of the object are grouped. Also, the discrimination between spikies and smoothies requires detecting the orientations of particular edges that form the identifying features. To my mind, it would make more sense to refer to discrimination of object orientation as "coarse" feature discrimination, and orientation of object identity as "fine" feature discrimination. Thus, the sentence on line 83, for example, would read "Interestingly, feedback with fine and coarse feature information exhibits different laminar profiles.".

      (2) Figure 2 and text on lines 185, and 186: it is difficult to interpret/understand the findings in foveal ROIs for the foveal control task without knowing how big the ROI was. Foveal regions of V1 are grossly expanded by cortical magnification, such that the central half-degree can occupy several centimeters across the cortical surface. Without information on the spatial extent of the foveal ROI compared to the object size, we can't know whether the ROI included voxels whose population receptive fields were expected to include the edges of the objects.

      (3) Line 143 and ROI section of the methods: in order for the reader to understand how robust the responses and analyses are, voxel counts should be provided for the ROIs that were defined, as well as for the number (fraction) of voxels excluded due to either high beta weights or low signal intensity (lines 505-511).

      (4) I wasn't able to find mention of how multiple-comparisons corrections were performed for either the MEG or fMRI data (except for one Holm-Bonferonni correction in Figure S1), so it's unclear whether the reported p-values are corrected.

    1. Czy picie kawy wpływa na długość naszego życia?
      • Regular coffee consumption can extend life by an average of 1.8 years, according to researchers from the University of Coimbra.
      • Findings are based on a meta-analysis of over 50 studies.
      • Benefits of coffee consumption include:
        • Reduced risk of heart disease, type 2 diabetes, and obesity.
        • Improved circulation.
        • Relief from muscle pain.
        • Anti-inflammatory effects due to chlorogenic acids, which act as antioxidants combating free radicals responsible for cellular aging.
      • Recommendations:
        • Limit intake to no more than 4 cups per day.
        • Avoid adding sugar and cream.
    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors performed experimental evolution of MreB mutants that have a slow growing round phenotype and studied the subsequent evolutionary trajectory using analysis tool from molecular biology. It was remarkable and interesting that they found that the original phenotype was not restored (most common in these studies) but that the round phenotype was maintained.

      Strengths:

      The finding that the round phenotype was maintained during evolution rather than that the original phenotype, rod shape cells, was recovered is interesting. The paper extensively investigates what happens during adaptation with various different techniques. Also the extensive discussion of the findings at the end of the paper is well thought through and insightful.

      Weaknesses:

      I find there are three general weaknesses<br /> (1) Although the paper states in the abstract that it emphasizes "new knowledge to be gained" it remains unclear what this concretely is. At page 4 they state 3 three research questions, these could be more extensively discussed in the abstract. Also these questions read more like genetics questions while the paper is a lot about cell biological findings.<br /> (2) It is not clear to me from the text what we already know about restoration of MreB loss from suppressors studies (in the literature). Are there supressor screens in the literature and which part of the findings is consistent with suppressor screens and which parts are new knowledge?<br /> (3) The clarity of the figures, captions and data quantification need to be improved.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews

      Reviewer #1: 

      Summary:

      In this study, Avila et al. tested the hypothesis that chronic pain states are associated with changes in the excitability of the medial prefrontal cortex (mPFC). The authors used the slope of the aperiodic component of the EEG power spectrum (= the aperiodic exponent) as a novel, non-invasive proxy for the cortical excitation-inhibition ratio. They performed source localization to estimate the EEG signals generated specifically by the mPFC. By pooling resting-state EEG recordings from three existing datasets, the authors were able to compare the aperiodic exponent in the mPFC and across the whole brain (at all modeled cortical sources) between 149 chronic pain patients and 115 healthy controls. Additionally, they assessed the relationship between the aperiodic exponent and pain intensity reported by the patients. To account for heterogeneity in pain etiology, the analysis was also performed separately for two patient subgroups with different chronic pain conditions (chronic back pain and chronic widespread pain). The study found robust evidence against differences in the aperiodic exponent in the mPFC between people with chronic pain and healthy participants, and no correlation was observed between the aperiodic exponent and pain intensity. These findings were consistent across different patient subgroups and were corroborated by the whole-brain analysis.

      Strengths:

      The study is based on sound scientific reasoning and rigorously employs suitable methods to test the hypothesis. It follows a pre-registered protocol, which greatly increases the transparency and, consequently, the credibility of the reported results. In addition to the planned steps, the authors used a multiverse analysis to ensure the robustness of the results across different methodological choices. I find this particularly interesting, as the EEG aperiodic exponent has only recently been linked to network excitability, and the most appropriate methods for its extraction and analysis are still being determined. The methods are clearly and comprehensively described, making this paper very useful for researchers planning similar studies. The results are convincing, and supported by informative figures, and the lack of the expected difference in mPFC excitability between the tested groups is thoroughly and constructively discussed.

      We are grateful for the appreciation of the strengths of our study.  

      Weaknesses:

      Firstly, although I appreciate the relatively large sample size, pooling data recorded by different researchers using different experimental protocols inevitably increases sample variability and may limit the availability of certain measures, as was the case here with the reports of pain intensity in the patient group. Secondly, the analysis heavily relies on the estimation of cortical sources, an approach that offers many advantages but may yield imprecise results, especially when default conduction models, source models, and electrode coordinates are used. In my opinion, this point should be discussed as well.

      We agree that the heterogeneous sample of people with chronic pain increases variability and limits the availability of clinical measures. We further agree on the limitations of source space analysis. Therefore, we have added these limitations to the discussion section.

      Reviewer #2: 

      Summary:

      This study evaluated the aperiodic component in the medial prefrontal cortex (mPFC) using restingstate EEG recordings from 149 individuals with chronic pain and 115 healthy participants. The findings showed no significant differences in the aperiodic component of the mPFC between the two groups, nor was there any correlation between the aperiodic component and pain intensity. These results were consistent across various chronic pain subtypes and were corroborated by whole-brain analyses. The study's robustness was further reinforced by preregistration and multiverse analyses, which accounted for a wide range of methodological choices.

      Strengths:

      This study was rigorously conducted, yielding clear and conclusive results. Furthermore, it adhered to stringent open and reproducible science practices, including preregistration, blinded data analysis, and Bayesian hypothesis testing. All data and code have been made openly available, underscoring the study's commitment to transparency and reproducibility.

      We appreciate the appraisal of the strengths of our study, highlighting our efforts in open and reproducible science practices.

      Weaknesses:

      The aperiodic exponent of the EEG power spectrum is often regarded as an indicator of the excitatory/inhibitory (E/I) balance. However, this measure may not be the most accurate or optimal for quantifying E/I balance, a limitation that the authors might consider addressing in the future.

      We are grateful for this suggestion and fully agree that the aperiodic component of the power spectrum is not necessarily the most optimal and accurate measure for quantifying E/I balance. We have now included this limitation in the discussion section.

      Recommendations for the authors

      Reviewer #1: 

      (1) In the Results section, it might be helpful to provide the mean values of the aperiodic exponent (before age correction) for all tested groups and subgroups. As this measure is still not widely used, providing these values would allow readers to better understand the normal range of the aperiodic exponent.

      We have added the mean values of the aperiodic exponent and their standard deviation (before age correction) to the manuscript's results section (page 6 and 11).

      (2) When reporting the aperiodic exponent across all cortical sources (Q3), I think it would be useful to include the raw values in Figure 6 in the main text rather than in the Supplementary Materials. At a glance, these plots seem to suggest that the aperiodic exponent differs between groups in the occipital and parietal regions, even though no tests were significant after correcting for multiple comparisons. Maybe this observation also deserves a mention in the text and possibly in the Discussion..?

      We have moved the report on the aperiodic exponent across all cortical sources from the Supplementary Material to the main text. It is now Fig. 7 of the main manuscript. Moreover, we agree that the plots suggest group differences in certain brain regions. However, according to our rigorous open and reproducible science practices and pre-registration, we prefer not to speculate on these non-significant findings. 

      (3) In the Methods section, when describing the participants, the authors state that "Gender was balanced across both groups...". It might be better to avoid referring to the datasets as "balanced," considering that the sample includes almost twice as many females as males.

      We have replaced the misleading statement with the more precise statement that ”the gender ratio of both groups was similar.”

      (4) In the Methods section, when describing the source localization, I find it slightly confusing that the authors first mention the anterior cingulate cortex as a possible label included in the mPFC cortical parcels but then state that the version of the cortical atlas used did not contain such a label. It might be simpler not to mention the cingulate cortex at all.

      We have deleted the misleading sentence from the manuscript.  

      Reviewer #2: 

      (1) The aperiodic exponent of the EEG power spectrum is often considered an indicator of the excitatory/inhibitory (E/I) balance, but this measure can be susceptible to artifacts. It is important to acknowledge this limitation and consider exploring alternative measures to quantify the E/I ratio in future studies.

      We are grateful for this suggestion and fully agree that the aperiodic component of the power spectrum is not necessarily the most optimal and accurate measure for quantifying E/I balance. We have now included this limitation in the discussion section.

      (2) The study assumed a linear relationship between the E/I ratio (represented by the aperiodic exponent of the EEG power spectrum) and chronic pain. However, this assumption may not hold true in all cases, and this point could be discussed in the study.

      We fully agree that the relationship between the E/I ratio and chronic pain might not be a linear one and have added this point to the discussion section.

      (3) The aperiodic component was characterized in eyes-closed resting-state EEG recordings, although EEG data were collected in both eyes-closed and eyes-open conditions. The authors could also consider assessing the aperiodic component from EEG data with eyes open.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We have focused our analysis on eyes-closed recordings since these recordings are usually less contaminated by artifacts than eyes-open recordings. Moreover, in our current datasets, some participants were missing eyes-open recordings. We agree that performing similar analyses for the eyes-open recordings would also be interesting. However, adding these analyses would double the amount of data included in the manuscript, which would likely overload it. We have, therefore, now included a statement to the discussion that future studies should also analyze eyes-open EEG recordings.  

      (4) The EEG power spectrum was calculated from signals after source reconstruction, a crucial step for targeting specific brain regions. However, this process can introduce potential signal distortions, such as variations in source waveforms depending on different regularization parameters. To ensure the robustness of the results, the authors could perform the same analysis at the sensor level, for example, using signals recorded at Fz.

      We agree on the potential shortcomings and limitations of source space analysis and have added this limitation to the discussion section.

      (5) It would be beneficial to present the raw EEG power spectrum averaged across subjects for each condition, along with the scalp distribution of the aperiodic exponent. This would enhance readers' understanding of the study and help demonstrate the quality of the data.

      We are grateful for this suggestion and added the power spectrum for each condition and the scalp distribution of the aperiodic exponent to the Supplementary Material.

      (6) Linear regression models were used to control for the influence of age on aperiodic exponents and pain intensity ratings. However, it is unclear why other relevant variables, such as gender and medication use, were not considered.

      We agree that the aperiodic exponent might be influenced by gender and medication. As these analyses had not been included in our pre-registered analysis plan, we have not performed them. Moreover, although we agree that gender might have an impact, we have not found any evidence for this so far. Regarding medication, we fully agree that medication can influence the measure. However, medication was very heterogeneous, including drugs with fundamentally different mechanisms of action. Thus, we do not see a robust way to appropriately analyze these effects with sufficient statistical power. We have now added this important point to the discussion section.

      (7) The authors may consider addressing or discussing the impact of inter-individual variability on the negative results, particularly given that the data were derived from multiple experiments.

      We agree that the heterogeneous sample of people with chronic pain increases variability and limits the availability of clinical measures. We have added this limitation to the discussion.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife Assessment

      This valuable work advances our understanding of the foraging behaviour of aerial insectivorous birds. Its major strength is the large volume of tracking data and the accuracy of those data. However, the evidence supporting the main claim of optimal foraging is incomplete.

      We deeply appreciate the thoughtful review provided by the reviewers, including their valuable insights and meticulous attention to detail. Each comment has been thoroughly evaluated, leading to substantial improvements in the manuscript. Your constructive critique has been instrumental in refining our research and rectifying any oversights. We are confident that the revised article will make a substantial contribution to ecological research, particularly in advancing our understanding of foraging theories and the behaviors of aerial insectivores.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      This study tests whether Little Swifts exhibit optimal foraging, which the data seem to indicate is the case. This is unsurprising as most animals would be expected to optimize the energy income: expenditure ratio; however, it hasn't been explicitly quantified before the way it was in this manuscript.

      The major strength of this work is the sheer volume of tracking data and the accuracy of those data. The ATLAS tracking system really enhanced this study and allowed for pinpoint monitoring of the tracked birds. These data could be used to ask and answer many questions beyond just the one tested here.

      The major weakness of this work lies in the sampling of insect prey abundance at a single point on the landscape, 6.5 km from the colony. This sampling then requires the authors to work under the assumption that prey abundance is simultaneously even across the study region - an assumption that is certainly untrue. The authors recognize this problem and say that sampling in a spatially explicit way was beyond their scope, which I understand, but then at other times try to present this assumption as not being a problem, which it very much is.

      Further, it is uncertain whether other aspects of the prey data are problematic. For example, the radar only samples insects at 50 m or higher from the ground - how often do Little Swifts forage under 50 m high?

      Another example might be that the phrases "high abundance" and "low abundance" are often used in the manuscript, but never defined.

      It may be fair to say that prey populations might be correlated over space but are not equal. It is this unknown degree of spatial correlation that lends confidence to the findings in the Results. As such, the finding that Little Swifts forage optimally is indeed supported by the data, notwithstanding some of the shortcomings in the prey abundance data. The authors achieved their aims and the results support their conclusions.

      Thanks for this comment.

      The basic assumption of this paper is that the abundance of insects bioflow in the airspace is correlated in space and varies over time. This has been demonstrated by different studies, see for example Bell et al. (Bell, J. R., Aralimarad, P., Lim, K. S., & Chapman, J. W. (2013). Predicting insect migration density and speed in the daytime convective boundary layer. PloS one, 8(1), e54202) in which positive correlation in insect bioflow is demonstrated between different sites that are more than 100 km away in Southern England. Given the much closer proximity of the colony and the radar site, as well as the large foraging distance of the swifts that often forage in the vicinity of the radar and beyond it, it is reasonable to assume that the radar was able to successfully capture between-day variation in the abundance of flying insects in the airspace, which is highly relevant for the foraging swifts. This is likely because meteorological variables such as temperature and wind, which tend to vary over a synoptic-system scale of several hundred kilometers, significantly influence the abundance of aerial insects. Furthermore, the direction of insect flight that has been recorded by the radar points to an overall south-north directionality of the insects during the period of the study (Werber et al. Under Review: Werber, Y., Chapman, J. W., Reynolds, D. R. and Sapir, N. Active navigation and meteorological selectivity drive patterns of mass intercontinental insect migration through the Levant). Hence, it is reasonable to assume that since the colony is positioned approximately 6.5 km south of the radar site, the radar is able to reliable estimate the between-day variation in aerial insect abundance experienced by the foraging swifts. Importantly, this between-day variation is very high, and detailed information regarding this variation is provided in the paper.  We thank the reviewer for the comments on the wording and have corrected it accordingly so that it is explicitly stated that the spatial distribution of the flying insects is indeed not uniform, but is expected to be simultaneously affected by environmental variables creating spatially correlated bioflow of aerial insects.

      The term "high abundance" or "low abundance" is relative to the variable being examined but throughout the manuscript we did not use these terms to describe an absolute amount or a certain threshold but rather to describe the ecological circumstances experienced by the birds on different days that substantially varied in abundance of insect recorded by the radar. However, we have improved the wording of the text so that it is now clear that we refer to relative  and not to absolute values.

      At its centre, this work adds to our understanding of Little Swift foraging and extends to a greater understanding of aerial insectivores in general. While unsurprising that Little Swifts act as optimal foragers, it is good to have quantified this and show that the population declines observed in so many aerial insectivores are not necessarily a function of inflexible foraging habits. Further, the methods used in this research have great potential for other work. For example, the ATLAS system poses some real advantages and an exciting challenge to existing systems, like MOTUS. The radar that was used to quantify prey abundance also presents exciting possibilities if multiple units could be deployed to get a more spatially-explicit view.

      To improve the context of this work, it is worth noting that the authors suggest that this work is important because it has never been done before for an aerial insectivore; however, that justification is untrue as it has been assessed in several flycatcher and swallow species. A further justification is that this research is needed due to dramatic insect population declines, but the magnitude and extent of such declines are fiercely debated in the literature. Perhaps these justifications are unnecessary, and the work can more simply be couched as just a test of optimality theory.

      We appreciate the reviewer's helpful comment. A flycatcher is indeed an aerial insect eater, but its foraging strategy is very different from that of swifts. A comparison with the foraging strategy of the swallow is much more relevant. However, the methods used to quantify bird movement in the airspace in previous articles limited the ability to examine the optimal foraging theory in detail. Following the comment, we revised the text to better describe the uniqueness of our research. Further, since we studied insectivores, it is important to provide a broad context to potentially significant threats to the birds, albeit being debatable

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Bloch et al. investigate the relationships between aerial foragers (little swifts) tracked with an automated radio-telemetry system (Atlas) and their prey (flying insects) monitored with a small-scale vertical-looking radar device (BirdScan MR1). The aim of the study was to test whether little swifts optimise their foraging with the abundance of their prey. However, the results provided little evidence of optimal foraging behaviour.

      Strengths:

      This study addresses fundamental knowledge gaps on the prey-predator dynamics in the airspace. It describes the coincidence between the abundance of flying insects and features derived from tracking individual swifts.

      Weaknesses:

      The article uses hypotheses broadly derived from optimal foraging theory, but mixes the form of natural selection: parental energetics, parental survival (predation risks), nestling foraging, and breeding success.

      While this study explores additional behavioral theories alongside optimal foraging theory, its findings unequivocally support the latter. The highly statistically significant observed reduction in flight distance from the breeding colony in elation to increasing insect abundance (supporting predictions 1 and 2) coupled with an increased rate of colony visits (supporting prediction 5) demonstrate the Little Swifts' adeptness at optimizing their aerial foraging behavior. This behavior manifests in an enhanced frequency of visits to the breeding colony, underscoring their food provisioning maximization.

      Results are partly incoherent (e.g., "Thus, even when the birds foraged close to the colony under optimal conditions, the shorter traveling distance is not thought to not confer lower flight-related energetic expenditure because more return trips were made.", L285-287),

      Thanks for the comment. We have corrected this sentence.

      and confounding factors (e.g., brooding vs. nestling phase) are ignored.

      The breeding stage may indeed affect food provisioning properties but this factor is not confounded since insect abundance, and the consequent changes in bird foraging properties, fluctuated between sequential days while brooding and nestling phases take place over a period of several weeks, each. Further, despite the possible influence of breeding stages on bird behavior, variability in reproductive stages is expected among pairs in a breeding colony occupying dozens of pairs, despite some coordination in nesting initiation. Practically, the narrow and concealed nest openings hindered direct observation of the nests, posing challenges in determining the precise reproductive stage of each pair. Anyway, we added a short description of the dense colony structure to the Methods section.

      Some limits are clearly recognised by the authors (L329 and ff).

      See above the response about the distribution of insects in space.

      To illustrate potential confounding effects, the daily flight duration (Prediction 4) should decrease with prey abundance, but how far does the daily flight duration coincide with departure and arrival at sunrise and sunset (note that day length increases between March and May), respectively, and how much do parents vary in the duration of nest attendance during the day across chick ages?

      We added the following explanation to the Methods section:

      To standardize the effect of day length on daily foraging duration, we calculated and subtracted the day length from the total daily foraging time (Day duration - Daily foraging duration = Net foraging duration). The resulting data represent the daily foraging duration in relation to sunrise and sunset, independent of day length.

      To conclude, insufficient analyses are performed to rigorously assess whether little swifts optimize their foraging.

      We disagree. See our responses above.

      Filters applied on tracking data are necessary but may strongly influence derived features based on maximum or mean values. Providing sensitivity tests or using features less dependent on extreme values may provide more robust results.

      Thank you for highlighting the importance of considering the impact of data filtering on derived features. In our analysis, we employed rigorous filtering methods to emphasize central data tendencies while mitigating the influence of extreme values. These methods, validated through consultation with experts in tracking data analysis, follow established practices in the literature. Detailed descriptions of our filtering procedures can be found in the Methods section, with citations to relevant published studies.

      Radar insect monitoring is incomplete and strongly size-dependent. What is the favourite prey size of swifts? How does it match with BirdScan MR1 monitoring capability?

      We added an explanation to the Methods section to address this comment:

      The Radar Cross Section (RCS) quantifies the reflectivity of a target, serving as a proxy for size by representing the cross-sectional area of a sphere with identical reflectivity to water, whose diameter equals the target's body length. Recent findings indicate that the BirdScan MR1 radar can detect insects with an RCS as low as 3 mm², enabling the detection of insects with body lengths as small as 2 mm. These capabilities make the radar suitable for locating the primary prey of swifts, which typically range in size from 1 to 16 mm.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Lines 53-59 - major run-on sentence

      Thanks for the comment. Done.

      Line 133 - describe better. Attached where? Were feathers clipped or removed?

      Thanks for the comment. Done.

      Line 153 - shouldn't be a new paragraph

      Done.

      Line 157 - justify choosing four 

      To ensure a robust analysis of swifts' behavior relative to food abundance across multiple individuals simultaneously, we opted to exclude data from instances where only 3 tags were active. This decision was motivated by the fact that these instances accounted for only 2.9% of the data, and their exclusion minimally impacted overall data volume while enhancing data quality. In contrast, instances with 4 tags, comprising 16.2% of the data, provided substantial insights. Omitting these instances would have resulted in significant data loss. Thus, setting a threshold of 4 simultaneous tags represents a balance between maintaining adequate data quantity and ensuring high data quality for meaningful analysis.

      It took me a long time to determine whether the average and maximum flight distance was actual or Euclidean. It was only in the Results that I grasped it was actual. Define up front in the Methods.

      Thanks for the comment. Done.

      In my public review, I mention that optimal foraging has been assessed in other aerial insectivores. Here are some of the papers I was referring to:

      • Davies (1977) Prey selection and the search strategy of the spotted flycatcher (Muscicapa striata): A field study on optimal foraging. Animal Behaviour 25: 1016-1022.

      • Lifjeld & Slagsvold (1988) Effects of energy costs on the optimal diet: an experiment with pied flycatchers Ficedula hypoleuca feeding nestlings. Ornis Scandinavica 19: 111-118.

      • Quinney & Ankney (1985) Prey size selection by tree swallows. Auk 102: 245-250.

      • Turner (1982) Optimal foraging by the swallow (Hirundo rustica, L): Prey size selection. Animal Behaviour 30:862-872.

      Lastly, in terms of the work not being spatially-explicit, I do note that in lines 323-324 you acknowledge that prey populations can be patchy, then ten lines later, you provide citations to say that patchiness is not a problem because of spatial correlations. This is a bit overly dismissive, in my view, and to suggest (lines 336-337) that "patches of high insect concentration...might not exist at all" is certainly incorrect (and misleading). I do note the valiant attempt to address the spatial shortcoming in the remainder of the paragraph - although addressing it does not make the problem go away.

      Thanks for the comment.

      We revised the text to make it more coherent.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      L161: typo > missing space in 'meanof'

      Corrected.

      L192-193: Did the authors use the timing of sunrise and sunset to determine daytime?

      Yes. The daytime was calculated in relation to sunrise and sunset.

      Did the authors calculate the MTR from sunrise to sunset, or averaging the hourly MTR?

      If using hourly MTR, specify the criteria to assign an hourly MTR to daytime when sunset/sunrise is happening during that hour.

      A simplified terminology for "Average daily insect MTR" might be useful, in particular for the result section (insect MTR).

      Average daily insect MTR is calculated for a fixed period from 5 am to 8 pm local time. An explanation has been added to the Methods section, and the terminology in the text has been simplified as suggested

      Note that the 'M' of MTR stands for migration, which may not be appropriate in this context, and simply using "insect traffic rate" may be a better terminology.

      Thanks for the comment. The 'M' of MTR can also stand for movement, as the insects detected by the radar move in the airspace. This is how this term has been defined in the paper (e.g. in line 23 of the Summary section). Therefore, we did not change the terminology to “insect traffic rate”, which is a term not used in other studies.

      Considering the large number of predictions (10!), it would be appropriate to list them in the results (e.g., "on the daily average flight distance from the breeding colony (Prediction 3)").

      We added prediction numbers to the Results and the Discussion.

      Note that the terminology varies; e.g., in the introduction "overall daily flight distance" (L75), in the results "average length of the daily flight route" (L236), and further confusion with "daily average flight distance from the breeding colony" (L232).

      Thanks for the comment. fixed.

      The terminology - average daily 'air/flight' distance (L74-76) - needs clarification.

      Done.

      Results: Use only a relevant and consistent number of decimals to report on the effect size and p-values.

      Done.

      The authors are citing non-peer-reviewed publications:

      21. Bloch I, Troupin D, Sapir N. Movement and parental care characteristics during the nesting season of 468 the Little Swift (Apus affinis) [Poster presentation]. 12th European Ornithologists' Union Congress. Cluj Napoca, Romania. 2019.

      62. Zaugg S, Schmid B, Liechti F. Ensemble approach for automated classification of radar echoes into functional bird sub-types. In: Radar Aeroecology. 2017. p. 1. doi:10.13140/RG.2.2.23354.80326

      It is acceptable to cite non-peer-reviewed sources if they have a significant contribution to the background of the article without a critical impact on the core of the research.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In the first half of this study, Pham et al. investigate the regulation of TEAD via ubiquitination and PARylation, identifying an E3 ubiquitin ligase, RNF146, as a negative regulator of TEAD activity through an siRNA screen of ubiquitin-related genes in MCF7 cells. The study also finds that depletion of PARP1 reduced TEAD4 ubiquitination levels, suggesting a certain relationship between TEAD4 PARylation and ubiquitination which was also explored through an interesting D70A mutation. Pham et al. subsequently tested this regulation in D. melanogaster by introducing Hpo loss-of-function mutations and rescuing the overgrowth phenotype through RNF146 overexpression.

      In the second half of this study, Pham et al. designed and assayed several potential TEAD degraders with a heterobifunctional design, which they term TEAD-CIDE. Compounds D and E were found to effectively degrade pan-TEAD, an effect which could be disrupted by treatment with TEAD lipid pocket binders, proteasome inhibitors, or E1 inhibitors, demonstrating that the TEAD-CIDEs operate in a proteasome-dependent manner. These TEAD-CIDEs could reduce cell proliferation in OVCAR-8, a YAP-deficient cell line, but not SK-N-FI, a Hippo pathway independent cell line. Finally, this study also utilizes ATAC-seq on Compound D to identify reductions in chromatin accessibility at the regions enriched for TEAD DNA binding motifs.

      Strengths:

      The study provides compelling evidence that the E3 ubiquitin ligase RNF146 is a novel negative regulator of TEAD activity. The authors convincingly delineate the mechanism through multiple techniques and approaches. The authors also describe the development of heterobifunctional pan-degraders of TEAD, which could serve as valuable reagents to more deeply study TEAD biology.

      Weaknesses:

      The scope of this study is extremely broad. The first half of the paper highlights the mechanisms underlying TEAD degradation; however, the connection to the second half of the paper on small molecule degraders of TEAD is jarring, and it seems as though two separate stories were combined into this single massive study. In my opinion, the study would be stronger if it chose to focus on only one of these topics and instead went deeper.

      We thank the reviewer for the thoughtful feedback. In our mind, the two parts of the paper are inherently related as they both focus on proteasome-mediated degradation of TEADs. We first demonstrated that TEAD can be turned over by the ubiquitin proteasome system under endogenous conditions and identified a PARylation-dependent E3 ligase RNF146 as a major regulator of TEAD stability. Intriguingly, we observed that the four TEAD paralogs show different levels of polyubiquitination with some of them being highly stable in cells. These observations raised the question of whether the activity of the ubiquitin-proteasome system could be further enhanced pharmacologically to effectively target TEADs. We then tackled this question by providing a proof-of-concept demonstration of engineered heterobifunctional protein degraders can effectively degrade TEADs in cells and can be exploited as a therapeutic strategy for treating Hippo-dependent cancers.

      Additionally, the figure clarity needs to be substantially improved, as readability and interpretation were difficult in many panels. Lastly, there are numerous typos and poor grammar throughout the text that need to be addressed.

      We appreciate the suggestions from the reviewer and have updated the figures with high resolution images. We also corrected typos and grammatical errors in the text.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      The paper is made of two parts. One deals with RNF146, the other with the development of compounds that may cause TEAD degradation. The two parts are rather unrelated to each other.

      The main limit of this work is the lack of evidence that TEAD factors are in fact regulated by the proteasome and ubiquitylation under endogenous conditions. Also lacking is the demonstration that TEADs are labile proteins to the extent that such quantitative regulation at the level of stability can impact on YAP-TAZ biology. Without these two elements, the relevance and physiological significance of all these data is lacking.

      As for the development of new inhibitors of TEAD, this is potentially very interesting but underdeveloped in this manuscript. Irrespectively, if TEAD is stable, these molecules are likely lead compounds of interest. If TEAD is unstable, as entertained in the first part of the paper, then these molecules are likely marginal.

      We thank the reviewer for evaluating our manuscript. As the reviewer pointed out, the paper aimed to address 1) whether TEAD is being regulated by the proteasome and ubiquitination under endogenous conditions, and 2) whether TEAD can be inhibited through pharmacologically-induced degradation. First, we demonstrated that TEAD is ubiquitinated in cells and mapped the lysine residues that are poly-ubiquitinated (Fig. 1). Next, we identified RNF146 as a major E3 ligase that ubiquitinates TEADs and reduces their stability. Third, we show that RNF146-mediated TEAD ubiquitination is functionally important: RNF146 suppresses TEAD activity, and RNF146 genetically interacts with Hippo pathway components in fruit flies. Furthermore, as we showed in Fig. S2H, RNF-146 does not affect TEAD1 and TEAD4 to the same extent. Across all four cell lines evaluated, TEAD1 is more stable than TEAD4, raising the question of whether more consistent degradation of different TEAD paralogues could be achieved. To this end, we demonstrated that while the TEAD family of proteins is labile under endogenous conditions, more complete degradation of the TEAD proteins could be achieved using a heterobifunctional CRBN degrader. We further characterized these TEAD degraders in a series of cellular and genomic assays to demonstrate their cellular activity, selectivity, and inhibitory effects against YAP/TAZ target genes. We believe these degrader compounds would be of great interest to the Hippo community. We have revised the main text to clarify these points.

      Here are a few other specific observations:

      (1) The effect of MG is shown in a convoluted way, by MS. What about endogenous TEAD protein stability?

      We thank the reviewer for the question. The MS experiment shown in Figure 1 is a standard KGG experiment, where we used MS to map ubiquitination sites on TEADs. The graphical representation of the process is included in Fig. 1C, and the details of the procedure are included in the Methods section. Fig. 1D shows the different KGG peptides detected with or without MG-132 treatment. Fig. 1E shows the quantified abundance of each of the peptides across the four conditions indicated at the bottom of the plot. Regarding endogenous TEAD stability, ​​we conducted cycloheximide chase experiments to assess the stability of endogenously expressed TEAD isoforms upon RNF146 knockdown (Fig. S2G and S2H). Using isoform-specific antibodies, we demonstrated that siRNF146 significantly stabilized TEAD4 in multiple cell lines, including H226, PATU-8902, Detroit-562, and OVCAR-8 (Fig. S2G, S2H, and S2I), supporting the notion that RNF146 is a negative regulator of TEAD stability. Notably, the effect of siRNF146 on TEAD1 stability was less pronounced, and TEAD1 is more stable than TEAD4 across all four cell lines. These results are consistent with the lower level of ubiquitination of TEAD1 (Fig. 1A) and are corroborated by various biochemical, molecular, and genetic characterizations (Fig. 3A-C and S3E).

      (2) The relevance of siRNF on YAP target genes of Fig.2D is not statistically significant.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. We have now removed the statistically significant claim.

      (3) All assays are with protein overexpression and Ub-laddering

      We thank the reviewer for the comment. To examine the ubiquitination level of TEAD proteins, we adopted an in vivo ubiquitination assay as described in our Materials and Methods section. To our knowledge, this assay is very standard in the ubiquitination field. Furthermore, as mentioned above, we have included in our revised manuscript cycloheximide chase experiments to assess the stability of endogenously expressed TEAD isoforms upon RNF146 knockdown (Fig. S2G and S2H). In addition to the overexpression system, we also assessed endogenously expressed TEAD using isoform-specific antibodies. We demonstrated that siRNF146 firmly stabilized TEAD4 in multiple cell lines, including H226, PATU-8902, Detroit-562, and OVCAR-8 (Fig. S2G with quantification and t-test), supporting the notion that RNF146 is a negative regulator of TEAD stability.

      (4) An inconsistency exists on the only biological validation (only by overexpression) on the fly eye size. RNF gain in Fig4C is doing the opposite of what is expected from what is portrayed here as a YAP/TEAD inhibitor: RNF gain is shown to INCREASE eye size, phenocopying a Hippo loss of function phenotype. According to the model proposed, RNF addition should reduce eye size. The authors stated that " This is in contrast to the anti-growth effect of RNF-146 in the Hpo loss-of-function background and indicates RNF146 may regulate other genes/pathways controlling eye sizes besides its role as a negative regulator of Sd/yki activity". This raises questions on what the authors are really studying: why, according to the authors, these caveats should occur on the controls, and not when they study Hpo mutants?

      We thank the reviewer for the comment. We acknowledge the complexity of the fly phenotype compared to tumor growth. TEAD (Sd) isn’t the only substrate of RNF146 in the fly. For instance, RNF146 is known to positively regulate Wnt signaling by degrading Axin. Previous studies have shown that activation of the Wnt signaling pathway by removal of the negative regulator Axin from clones of cells results in an overgrowth phenotype (Legent and Treisman, 2008). The overgrowth phenotype that we observed with overexpressing RNF146 only, therefore, likely is due to the role of RNF146 in regulating other signaling pathways. Importantly, we showed that upon Hippo loss of function, overexpression of RNF146 can rescue the Hippo overgrowth phenotype (Fig 4B). This differential outcome of RNF146 expression in wildtype versus Hippo-deficient flies indicates that the genetic interactions between RNF146 and Hippo pathway components altered the phenotypic outcome, and the phenotype we get with RNF146 overexpression in a Hippo loss of function background is not simply due to additive effects of functional loss of either component alone.

      Complementary to these overexpression data, we showed that knockdown of RNF146 increased the eye size further (Fig. S4A, B) in Hippo loss of function background, further supporting the role of RNF146 as a negative regulator of the overall pro-growth signals induced by yki upon Hippo loss of function.

      (5) The role of TEAD inactivation on YAP function is already well known. Disappointingly, no prior literature is cited. In any case, this is a mere control.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. We have cited several published reviews that touch upon this aspect of the TEAD-YAP function, including Calses et al., 2019; Dey et al., 2020; Halder and Johnson, 2011; Wang et al., 2018. We are open to your suggestions on additional citations.

      (6) The second part of the paper on the Development and Screening of pan-TEAD lipid pocket degraders is interesting but unconnected to the above. The degradation pathway it involves has nothing to do with the enzyme described in the first figures.

      We thank the reviewer for the comment. We acknowledge that our paper broadly covers two aspects. We believe that they are inherently connected as they both address ubiquitin/proteasome-mediated TEAD degradation and the functional consequences of TEAD degradation. Given the increasing interest in targeting TEAD/YAP/TAZ in cancers, we think the pharmacological approaches to enhance TEAD degradation using orthogonal E3 ligases provide an important toolbox to understand how this pathway can be regulated under both physiological and pathological conditions. While RNF146 appears to be a major E3 ligase responsible for TEAD turnover under physiological conditions, we showed that the four TEAD paralogs have different poly-ubiquitination levels (Fig. 1A), and are differentially labile in cells (Fig. S2G-I). These observations raised the question of whether the activity of the ubiquitination-proteasome system could be further enhanced to allow more complete removal of TEADs. To this end, we demonstrated that E3 ligases that do not regulate TEAD under endogenous conditions can be leveraged pharmacologically to achieve deep TEAD degradation, thus providing a proof of concept that TEADs can be targeted simultaneously using such approaches. Finally, in addition to establishing the basic biological concept linking RNF146 to TEAD degradation, the compounds we engineered will serve as valuable chemical tools for future studies of TEAD biology and the Hippo pathway in cancers and beyond.

      (7) The role of CIDE on YAP accessibility to Chromatin is superficially executed. Key controls are missing along with the connection with mechanisms and prior knowledge of TEAD, YAP, chromatin, and other TEAD inhibitors, just to mention a few.

      We used ATAC-seq to assess chromatin accessibility comparing cells treated with DMSO and two different concentrations of compound D. We acknowledge there are small molecule inhibitors of TEADs that can modulate accessibility of YAP binding sites. Potential mechanistic differences between TEAD degraders versus TEAD small molecule inhibitions will be a future area of investigation.

      (8) The physiological relevance and the mechanistic interpretation of what should be in the ATAC seq in ovcar cells is missing.

      We showed in Fig. 7A-D the dose response of OVCAR cells to the TEAD degraders. As evident from those experiments, TEAD degraders inhibit the proliferation of OVCAR cells as expected from their dependencies on the TEAD/YAP/TAZ transcription complex. In the ATAC-seq experiment, we showed that the canonical TEAD/YAP/TAZ target genes ANKRD1 and CCN1 have reduced chromatin accessibility at their promoter/enhancer regions (Fig. 8C). By unbiased motif and pathway analyses, we show that TEAD binding sites and YAP signatures are most significantly downregulated in OVCAR-8 cells (Fig. 8D-E). These results are incorporated into the results section of the manuscript.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary

      Pham, Pahuja, Hagenbeek, et al. have conducted a comprehensive range of assays to biochemically and genetically determine TEAD degradation through RNF146 ubiquitination. Additionally, they designed a PROTAC protein degrader system to regulate the Hippo pathway through TEAD degradation. Overall, the data appears robust. However, the manuscript lacks detailed methodological descriptions, which should be addressed and improved before publication. For instance, the methods used to analyze the K48 ubiquitination site on TEAD and the gene expression analysis of Hippo Signaling are unclear. Furthermore, the multiple proteomics, RNA-seq, and ATAC-seq data must be made publicly available upon publication to ensure reproducibility. Most of the main figures are of low resolution, which needs addressing.

      We thank the reviewer for evaluating our manuscript. All of the data will be uploaded to public databases. We apologize for the low figure resolution and have updated the figures in the revised manuscript. We also expanded the methods section with more details.

      Strengths:

      - A broad range of assays was used to robustly determine the role of RNF146 in TEAD degradation.

      - Development of novel PROTAC for degrading TEAD.

      Weaknesses:

      - An orthogonal approach is needed (e.g., PARP1 inhibitor) to demonstrate PARP1's dependency in TEAD ubiquitination.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. We had attempted to assess the effect of PARP inhibitors (including veliparib and olaparib) on TEAD ubiquitination, but the data is relatively complex to interpret. Besides inhibiting PARP1/2 catalytic activities, these PARP inhibitors also trap PARP on chromatin. Hence, these inhibitors could induce other cellular changes in addition to inhibiting the catalytic activities of PARP1/2. Given these potential pitfalls, we decided not to include these inconclusive data. Even though the experiments with PARP inhibitors were inconclusive, our study supports that TEAD2 and TEAD4 are PARylated in cells using an anti-PAR antibody (Fig. 3B). Furthermore, we show that mutation of the D70 PARsylation site to alanine greatly abolished TEAD4 ubiquitination in cells, suggesting PARylation is important for TEAD4 ubiquitination. In addition, PARP1 depletion by siRNA and CRISPR guide RNA reduced TEAD2 and TEAD4 ubiquitination levels, indicating PARP1 is one of the PARPs responsible for TEAD PARylation in cells.

      - The data from Table 2 is unclear in illustrating the association of identified K48 ubiquitination with TEAD4, especially since the experiments were presumably to be conducted on whole cell lysates with KGG enrichment. This raises the possibility that the K48 ubiquitination could originate from other proteins. Alternatively, if the authors performed immunoprecipitation on TEAD followed by mass spectrometry, this should be explicitly described in the text and materials and methods section.

      We thank the reviewer for this question. The experiment was an IP-mass spectrometry study in a TEAD4 amplified cell line model (PATU-8902) after IP with a pan-TEAD antibody. Here, we observed K48 ubiquitin and other ubiquitin linkages as shown in the Supplementary Table S2 of the original submission. Although it is possible that the IP wash steps could be more stringent, we did enrich for TEAD protein prior to mass spectrometry. While the ubiquitin linkage signals may come mainly from TEAD protein (mainly TEAD4), we recognized that some signals may come from other proteins. Given the caveat, we have now removed the table from our paper and updated the text accordingly.

      - Figure 2D: The methodology for measuring the Hippo signature is unclear, as is the case for Figures 7E and F regarding the analysis of Hippo target genes.

      We apologize for the lack of clarification. In short, we previously developed the Hippo signature using machine learning and chemogenomics as described previously (Pham et al. Cancer Discovery 2021). In the revised version of the manuscript, we added the methodology for measuring the Hippo signature and cited our previous publication where we developed the Hippo signature.

      - Figure S3F requires quantification with additional replicates for validation.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. We added the quantification for the blot and indicated the replication in the figure legend. Note that Figure S3F is now S3G.

      - There is a misleading claim in the discussion stating "TEAD PARylation by PAR-family members (Figure 3)"; however, the demonstration is only for PARP1, which should be corrected.

      We apologize for the statement. We observed both PARP1 and PARP9 in our TEAD IP-mass spec (now Figure S3E), which suggest both PARP-family members could be invovled. Nonetheless, we primarily focus on PARP1, which is widely expressed aross cell line models and present in higher abundance. Thus, our study only experimentally validated PARP1's role in regulating TEAD.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      General comments:

      (1) Please provide a smoother transition and well-defined connection between the first and second parts of the manuscript. The manuscript reads as two papers that were combined into one, without much attempt to disguise the fact.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. We have added a transition paragraph to smoothen the transition. We acknowledge that our paper broadly covers two aspects. However, they both touch upon TEAD ubiquitination and degradation. In the first part of the manuscript, we described TEAD biology and showed that TEADs are post-translationally modified and subsequently regulated through PARylation-dependent RNF146-mediated ubiquitination. In the second part, we highlighted our abilities to leverage the PROTAC system for degrading such labile oncogenic proteins like TEADs. In addition to the biological concept, the compounds we engineered will serve as valuable chemical tools for future studies of TEAD biology and the Hippo pathway in cancers and beyond.

      (2) To confirm the proteasome mechanism of action, viability assays should be conducted with a CRBN KO.

      We thank the reviewer for the comment. In Figure 6E, we measured TEAD protein levels under CRBN knockdown and observed an expected change in TEAD stability. This observation and the other data presented in Figure 6 suggest that TEAD proteins are targeted for proteasomal degradation under compound D treatment.

      (3) As a control, sgPARP1 or PARP1 inhibitors should be used to confirm TEAD PARylation reduction.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. We had attempted to assess the effect of PARP inhibitors (including veliparib and olaparib) on TEAD ubiquitination, but the data is relatively complex to interpret. Besides inhibiting PARP1/2 catalytic activities, PARP inhibitors also trap PARP on chromatin. Hence, these inhibitors could induce other cellular changes in addition to inhibit the catalytic activities of PARP1/2. Given these pitfalls, we decided not to include these inconclusive data. Even though the experiments with PARP inhibitors were inconclusive, our study supports that TEAD2 and TEAD4 are PARylated in cells using an anti-PAR antibody (Fig. 3B). Furthermore, we show that mutation of the D70 PARsylation site to alanine greatly abolished TEAD4 ubiquitination in cells, suggesting PARylation is important for TEAD4 ubiquitination. In addition, PARP1 depletion by siRNA and CRISPR guide RNA reduced TEAD2 and TEAD4 ubiquitination levels, indicating PARP1 is one of the PARPs responsible for TEAD PARylation in cells.

      (4) MS data looks convincing but an FDR of 1% should be applied - this is the accepted standard in the proteomics field. Please research the data with the more stringent filter.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. Our IP-MS experiment comparing siNTC versus siYAP1/WWTR1 in Patu-8902 cells did not have replicates and FDR could not be derived. Therefore, we listed the raw data in Supplemental Table 3 without showing statistics. To validate the putative interactions identified by IP-MS, we performed IP-Western experiments to confirm that TEAD4 interacts with PARP1 (Figure 3A). It is important to note that in addition to our report, the interaction between PARP1 and TEADs has been observed in other publications (Calses et al., 2023; Yang et al., 2017). We have included more details of the IP-MS experiment reported in Supplemental Table 3 in the revised manuscript and cited previous work reporting TEAD-PARP1 interaction.

      (5) Proofread the manuscript more thoroughly for typos and grammatical errors.

      We thank the reviewer for raising this issue and have addressed it in the revision.

      (6) Improve figure clarity (e.g., clearly labeling graph axes).

      We apologize for the oversight. The revised manuscript contains high resolution figures.

      Specific points:

      Generally, the manuscript could use additional proofreading for grammar and clarity. It would not be practical to list all, but some representative examples are listed below:

      Run-on: "They act through an event-driven mechanism instead of conventional occupancy-driven pharmacology, in addition, target protein degradation removes all functions of the target protein and may also lead to destabilization of entire multidomain protein complexes."

      Typo: "Compound D exhibits significant inhibition of cell proliferation and downstream signaling compared to compound A, a reversible TEAD lipid pocket binder that lack the ubiquitin ligase binding moiety."

      Typo: "Thus, we sought to deplete TEAD proteins by directly target them for ubiquitination and proteasomal degradation via pharmacologically inducing interactions between TEAD and other abundantly expressed and PARylation-independent E3 ligases."

      Typo: "Compound A is a close in analog of Compound B as described previously (Holden et al., 2020)."

      We have revised the manuscript and corrected the typos and grammatical errors listed above and beyond.

      Specific comments on the figures are listed below:

      Figure 2:

      • Figures 2B and 2C should be separated into separate panels for clarity.

      We have updated the Figures 2B and 2C as suggested.

      • Figure 2C - "To further assess the function of RNF146, we depleted RNF146 by either sgRNA or siRNA." This should say either CRISPR-Cas9 KO or siRNA-mediated knockdown.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. We revised the text to address this issue.

      • Figure 2D - y-axis is not labeled well/clearly. Additionally, there are different resolutions for the p-values on the graph (the top p-value is slightly clearer than the other two, suggesting either a different font was used or the value was pasted on top of a picture of the graph at a different resolution).

      We updated the figures according to the suggestions.

      • Figure S2A - "We identified three ubiquitin ligases - RNF146, TRAF3, and PH5A - as potential negative regulators for the Hippos pathway from the primary screen using the luciferase reporter." However, the siPHF5A data appears to decrease luciferase levels whereas siRNF146 and siTRAF3 increase it.

      We thank the reviewer for catching this error. We removed PH5A from this list.

      Figure 3:

      • Figure 3A - label more clearly. Is this an endogenous TEAD4 co-IP?

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. The experiment was an IP-mass spectrometry study in a TEAD4 amplified cell line model (PATU-8902) with pan-TEAD antibody. We have included the details to in the figure legends. Figure 3A is now Figure S3E in the revised manuscript.

      • Figure 3C - why are the dark and light exposures not matching/corresponding? In the dark exposure, there are two particularly dark bands, the darkest of which is at the top of the gel. However, this darkest band disappears in the light exposure gel. Additionally, the last lane is marked as +TEAD2 and +TEAD4. Not sure if this is a typo, and meant to be only +TEAD4? Seems a bit strange to have a double TEAD lane.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment and apologize for the oversight. There was a typo in the label. The light exposure image was from a replicate run instead of the same run, therefore the lanes didn’t all match up. We have removed the light exposure panel to resolve the confusion. (Figure 3B).

      Figure 5:

      • Figure 5B - why is shTEAD1-4/Sucrose a much higher tumor volume than shNTC/Sucrose negative control? Additionally, should the legend say "sNTC/Sucrose" as it does or "shNTC/Sucrose"?

      The labels for shTEAD1-4/Sucrose and shNTC/Sucrose are correct. We do not understand why there is a slight increase in tumor volume for shTEAD1-4/Sucrose and suspect that is due to the considerable variation in the experiment. This slight change, however, doesn’t influence our observation of tumor regression in shTEAD1-4 under the Doxycycline treatment.

      "sNTC/Sucrose" is a typo. We apologize for the oversight and have revised the figure.

      • Figure 5E - cited in text after Figures 6 and 7.

      We have updated the text accordingly.

      Figure 6:

      • Figure 6B - it is very interesting how this clearly shows the Hook effect for Compound D, but it's a bit harder to see for compound E that the compound degrades pan-TEAD. Would it be possible to quantify the blots to reinforce claims about protein degradation here?

      We thank the reviewer for the question. There may seem to be some hook effect across the three concentrations of compound D treatment in Fig. 6B.  However, in Fig. 6C-E, we observed pretty consistent TEAD degradation levels across a variety of concentrations. In addition, these experiments have been repeated in multiple cell lines with consistent results. We respectfully argue that more detailed investigation of the hook effect is beyond the scope of our study.

      Figure 7:

      • Figure 7F - this heat map is extremely difficult to interpret. Are there any interesting clusters? What are the darker/lighter bands for Compound D compared to DMSO control?

      We thank the reviewer for the comment and apologize for the lack of information on the figure. These are genes from a Hippo signature derived from our earlier work (Pham et al. Cancer Discovery). As a result of degrading TEAD when treating the cells with Compound D, we observed an expected downregulation of most of these genes compared to compound A.

      Figure 8:

      • Figure 8B - these two pie charts are also difficult to interpret. Perhaps try to present the data in a form other than encircling pie charts?

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. However, this is a very descriptive pie chart, we used this format to save space.

      • Figure 8C - what is GNE-6915? Is this Compound D?

      Yes, this is compound D. The text is updated accordingly.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Figure 3A would benefit from explicitly stating the conditions within the figure, rather than referring to the legend. This clarity is also needed for Figure 8C, indicating whether the treatment was with compound D or GNE-6915.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. We have added the details to the figures and made the suggested edits.

      Standardize the terms "ubiquitination" and "ubiquitylation" throughout the paper for consistency.

      We now use the term “ubiquitination” throughout the manuscript.

      The statement "In this study, we show that the activity of TEAD transcription factors can be post-transcriptionally regulated via the ubiquitin/proteasome system" should be corrected to "post-translationally regulated."

      We have update the manuscript accordingly.

      There is an additional exclamation mark above Figure 5E that should be removed.

      We have revised Figure 5E.

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors used multiple approaches to study salt effects in liquid-liquid phase separation (LLPS). Results on both wild-type Caprin1 and mutants and on different types of salts contribute to a comprehensive understanding.

      Strengths:

      The main strength of this work is the thoroughness of investigation. This aspect is highlighted by the multiple approaches used in the study, and reinforced by the multiple protein variants and different salts studied.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The multiple computational approaches are a strength, but they're cruder than explicit-solvent all-atom molecular dynamics (MD) simulations and may miss subtle effects of salts. In particular, all-atom MD simulations demonstrate that high salt strengthens pi-types of interactions (ref. 42 and MacAinsh et al, https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2024.05.26.596000v3).<br /> (2) The paper can be improved by distilling the various results into a simple set of conclusions. By example, based on salt effects revealed by all-atom MD simulations, MacAinsh et al. presented a sequence-based predictor for classes of salt dependence. Wild-type Caprin1 fits right into the "high net charge" class, with a high net charge and a high aromatic content, showing no LLPS at 0 NaCl and an increasing tendency of LLPS with increasing NaCl. In contrast, pY-Caprin1 belongs to the "screening" class, with a high level of charged residues and showing a decreasing tendency of LLLPS.<br /> (3) Mechanistic interpretations can be further simplified or clarified. (i) Reentrant salt effects (e.g., Fig. 4a) are reported but no simple explanation seems to have been provided. Fig. 4a,b look very similar to what has been reported as strong-attraction promotor and weak-attraction suppressor, respectively (ref. 50; see also PMC5928213 Fig. 2d,b). According to the latter two studies, the "reentrant" behavior of a strong-attraction promotor, CL- in the present case, is due to Cl-mediated attraction at low to medium [NaCl] and repulsion between Cl- ions at high salt. Do the authors agree with this explanation? If not, could they provide another simple physical explanation? (ii) The authors attributed the promotional effect of Cl- to counterion-bridged interchain contacts, based on a single instance. There is another simple explanation, i.e., neutralization of the net charge on Caprin1. The authors should analyze their simulation results to distinguish net charge neutralization and interchain bridging; see MacAinsh et al.<br /> (4) The authors presented ATP-Mg both as a single ion and as two separate ions; there is no explanation of which of the two versions reflects reality. When presenting ATP-Mg as a single ion, it's as though it forms a salt with Na+. I assume NaCl, ATP, and MgCl2 were used in the experiment. Why is Cl- not considered? Related to this point, it looks ATP is just another salt ion studied and much of the Results section is on NaCl, so the emphasis of ATP ("Diverse Roles of ATP" in the title is somewhat misleading.

      Comments on revisions:

      This revision addressed all my previous comments.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews: 

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      This manuscript explores the multiple cell types present in the wall of murine-collecting lymphatic vessels with the goal of identifying cells that initiate the autonomous action potentials and contractions needed to drive lymphatic pumping. Through the use of genetic models to delete individual genes or detect cytosolic calcium in specific cell types, the authors convincingly determine that lymphatic muscle cells are the origin of the action potential that triggers lymphatic contraction. 

      Strengths: 

      The experiments are rigorously performed, the data justify the conclusions, and the limitations of the study are appropriately discussed. 

      There is a need to identify therapeutic targets to improve lymphatic contraction and this work helps identify lymphatic muscle cells as potential cellular targets for intervention. 

      Weaknesses: 

      My only major comment would be that the manuscript provides a lot of rich information describing the cellular components of the muscular lymphatic vessel wall and that these data are not well represented by the title. The title (while currently accurate) could be tweaked to better represent all that is in this manuscript. Maybe something like

      "Characterization/Interrogation of the cellular components of murine collecting lymphatic vessels reveals that lymphatic muscle cells are the innate pacemaker cells regulating lymphatic contractions" or "Discovery/Confirmation of lymphatic muscle cells as innate pacemaker cells of lymphatic contraction through characterization of the cellular components of murine collecting lymphatic vessels". Potentially a cartoon summary figure of the components that make up the collecting lymphatic vessel wall could also be included. In my opinion, these changes will make this manuscript of more interest to a broader group of scientists. I have a few additional comments for consideration to improve the clarity and enhance the discussion of this work. 

      We agree with the reviewer that our original manuscript, and our resubmission even more so with the addition of the scRNAseq data, provides a significant amount of information regarding the composition of the lymphatic collecting vessel wall. We have changed our title to match one suggestion of the reviewer: “Characterization of the cellular components of murine collecting lymphatic vessels reveals that lymphatic muscle cells are the innate pacemaker cells regulating lymphatic contractions".

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      This is a well-written manuscript describing studies directed at identifying the cell type responsible for pacemaking in murine-collecting lymphatics. Using state-of-the-art approaches, the authors identified a number of different cell types in the wall of these lymphatics and then using targeted expression of Channel Rhodopsin and GCaMP, the authors convincingly demonstrate that only activation of lymphatic muscle cells produces coordinated lymphatic contraction and that only lymphatic muscle cells display pressure-dependent Ca2+ transients as would be expected of a pacemaker in these lymphatics. 

      Strengths: 

      The use of a targeted expression of channel rhodopsin and GCaMP to test the hypothesis that lymphatic muscle cells serve as the pacemakers in musing lymphatic collecting vessels. 

      Weaknesses: 

      The only significant weakness was the lack of quantitative analysis of most of the imaging data shown in Figures 1-11. In particular, the colonization analysis should be extended to show cells not expected to demonstrate colocalization as a negative control for the colocalization analysis that the authors present. 

      We understand the reviewer’s concern regarding the lack of a control for the colocalization analysis and that the colocalization analysis was limited to just one set of cell markers. We have now provided a colocalization analysis of Myh11 and PDGFRα, to serve as a co-localization negative control based on our RT-PCR and scRNASeq findings, which is incorporated into the current Supplemental figure 1. In regard to the staining pattern of other various marker combinations, the results were often quite clear with the representative images that two separate cell populations were being stained such as the case with labeling endothelial cells with CD31, macrophage labeling with the MacGreen mice, or hematopoietic cells with CD45. 

      During our lengthy rebuttal process we completed a single cell RNA sequence analysis using our isolated and cleaned mouse inguinal axillary lymphatic collecting vessels to aid in our characterization of the vessel wall and to more thoroughly answer these questions regarding colocalization in arguably a robust manner. The generation of our scRNAseq dataset, derived from isolated and cleaned mouse inguinal axillary collecting vessels from 10 mice, 5 male and 5 females, allowed us to profile over 2200 of the adventitial fibroblast like cells (AdvCs) we had identified in our original submission. Using this dataset, we were able to confirm co-expression of Cd34 and Pdgfrα in AdvCs and assess the co-expression of other genes of interest from our RT-PCR experiments and immunofluorescence experiments. This approach will also allow other lymphatic investigators to assess their genes of interest as our dataset is uploaded to the NIH Gene Omnibus and will be uploaded to the Broad Institute Single Cell Portal upon publication.

      Here we show that the vast majority of non-muscle fibroblast like cells referred to as AdvCs were double positive for both CD34 and PDGFRα. We also show that the AdvCs that express commonly used pericyte markers Pdgfrb and Cspg4 also co-expressed Pdgfrα. Critically, this data also shows that the AdvCs that express genes linked with lymphatic contractile dysfunction (Ano1, Gjc1 or connexin 45, and Cacna1c “Cav1.2”) co-express Pdgfrα and would render these genes susceptible to Cre-mediated recombination using our Pdgfrα-CreER<sup>TM</sup> model.  

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      Zawieja et al. aimed to identify the pacemaker cells in the lymphatic collecting vessels. Authors have used various Cre-based expression systems and optogenetic tools to identify these cells. Their findings suggest these cells are lymphatic muscle cells that drive the pacemaker activity in the lymphatic collecting vessels. 

      Strengths: 

      The authors have used multiple approaches to test their hypothesis. Some findings are presented as qualitative images, while some quantitative measurements are provided.   

      Weaknesses: 

      -  More quantitative measurements. 

      -  Possible mechanisms associated with the pacemaker activity. 

      -  Membrane potential measurements. 

      We thank the reviewers for their concerns and have addressed them in the following manner. 

      - We added novel single cell RNA sequencing of isolated and cleaned inguinal axillary vessels from 10 mice (5 males and 5 females). This allowed us to quantify the number of AdvCs that coexpress CD34 and Pdgfrα as well as the number of cells co-expressing Pdgfrα and other markers.

      - We have added a negative control with quantification for the co-localization analysis assessing Myh11 and Pdgfrα. We have added a negative control with quantification for the ChR2-photo stimulated contraction experiments using Myh11CreERT2-ChR2 mice that were not injected with tamoxifen. 

      - We also used Biocytin-AF488 in our intracellular Vm electrodes to map the specific cells in which we recorded action potentials and in neighboring cells since Biocytin-AF488 is under 1KDa and can pass through gap junctions. This approach independently labeled lymphatic muscle cells and their direct neighbors for 3 IALVs from 3 separate mice. 

      - We performed membrane potential recordings in isolated, pressurized (under isobaric conditions), and spontaneously contracting inguinal axillary lymphatic collecting vessels at different pressures. 

      - We also show that the pressure-frequency relationship is dependent on the slope of the diastolic depolarization as no other parameter was significantly altered in our study and the diastolic depolarization slope was highly correlated with contraction frequency. 

      We believe the addition of these novel data, controls, experiments, and quantifications have improved the manuscript in line with the reviewers’ suggestions.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      Lines 149-162: The authors rule out the methylene blue staining cells in the cLV wall as pacemakers because they don't form continuous longitudinal connections to drive propagation. Is it possible for a pacemaker cell to only initiate the contraction and then have the LMCs make the axial electrical connections to propagate the electrical wave? I am not trying to suggest the methylene blue cells are pacemakers, but I am not sure the lack of longitudinal (or radial) connectivity is sufficient evidence to rule out the possibility. This comment also is relevant to the 3 criteria for a pacemaker cell listed in the Discussion (Lines 413-417). 

      We agree with the reviewer’s broader point that a pacemaker cell may not require direct contact with other ‘pacemaker’ cells within the tissue as long as they are still within the same electrical syncytium. However, we do expect a continuous presence of a pacemaker cell type throughout the vessel wall length to account for the persistence of spontaneous contractile behavior despite vessel length, and the ability for contraction initiation to shift (Akl et al 2011, Castorena et al 2018 and Castorena et al 2022) and the occurrence of spontaneous action potentials. In Dirk van Helden’s seminal work in 1993 on lymphatic pacemaking, a major finding was that “SM of small lymphangions or that of short segments, cut from lymphangions of any length, behaved similarly”. We have adjusted our phrase regarding the requirement of a contiguous network and instead suggest a continuous presence along the vessel network and integrated into the electrical syncytium. 

      Methylene blue is an alkaline stain that will stain acidic structures and historically methylene blue is noted to stain Interstitial cells of Cajal in the gastrointestinal tract which typically exist as network of cells(Huizinga et al 1993 and Berezin 1988). No such network was readily apparent in our methylene blue staining nor did the stained cells have a similar morphology to the ICCs of the gastrointestinal tract. Further, methylene blue is staining is not limited to ICCs or pacemaker cells at large as it has been used to kill cancer cells. Within the small intestine methylene blue was noted to also stain macrophage like cells (Mikkelsen et al 1988), and we too draw parallels between the macrophage morphology observed with Macgreen mice and methylene-blue stained cells. The specific structure for the ICC affinity for methylene blue is not well described and while the innate cytotoxicity of methylene blue and light has been used to kill ICCs and impair slow wave generation, the lack of specificity of this method leaves much to be desired. What is clear is that the ICC network highlighted by methylene blue in the gut is absent in lymphatic collecting vessels.

      In Figure 15/Video12, is it possible that the cells that are showing intracellular Ca2+ in diastole are the cells that reach a threshold membrane potential that then trigger the rest of the LMCs? As the authors have shown heterogeneity in the LMCs surface markers, is it possible that the cells with Ca2+ activity during diastole are identifiable by a distinct molecular phenotype? Or is the thought that these cells are randomly active in diastole? Some discussion/speculation about this seems appropriate. 

      We are in agreement with the reviewer’s conclusion that there is heterogeneity in the LMCs as it pertains to the calcium oscillations in diastole, either under normal buffer conditions or when L-type channels are inhibited with nifedipine. We also note significant heterogeneity in the gene expression noted within the four LMC subclusters (0-3), though we did not see significant differences in either in Ip3R1 or Ano1 expression. However, subcluster “0” had increased expression of Itprid2, also known as KRas-induced actin-interacting protein (KRAP) which is thought to tether, and thus immobilize, IP3 receptors to the actin cortex beneath the cell membrane. KRAP has been recently proposed to be a critical player in IP3 receptor “licensing” which allows IP3 receptors to release calcium (Vorontsova et al., 2022).  However, whether similar requirement of IP3R licensing is necessitated in all cells or specifically in LMCs is unknown it is quite clear there are specific release sites within the cell and this topic is currently under further investigation for a separate manuscript. We would like to note that there is yet to be a clear consensus on whether IP3R licensing is required as much of these studies are performed in cultured cells and this mechanism has only recently been described. 

      Healthy lymphatic collecting vessels typically have a single pacemaker driving a coordinated propagated contraction in ex vivo isobaric myograph studies (Castorena-Gonzalez et al., 2018), which is typically at either end of the cannulated vessel. We believe that this is due to the lack of a bordering cell in one direction and allows charge to accumulate and voltage to reach threshold at these sites preferentially. We have tried to image calcium at the pacemaking pole of the vessel to observe the specific Ca<sup>2+</sup> transients at these sites though invariably the act of imaging GCaMP6f results in the pacemaker activity initiating from the other pole of the vessel. It is our opinion that the fact that LMCs are heterogenous in their Ca<sup>2+</sup> transients is a feature to the system as it permits a wider range of depolarization signals, and thus allows finer control of the pacing as different physical/pressure or signaling stimuli is encountered. Likely, the cells with the higher propensity of Ca<sup>2+</sup> transients act as the contraction initiation site in vivo, though it must also be noted that the LMC density decreases around lymphatic valve sites. In fact, in guinea pig collecting vessels there are very few LMCs at the valves which can render them electrically uncoupled or poorly coupled (Van Helden, 1993). Thus, valve sites in which there is greater electrical resistance due to lower LMC-LMC coupling may allow for charge accumulation in the LMCs at the valve site, similar to the artificial condition achieved in our myograph preparations with two cut ends, and allow them to reach threshold first and drive coordination at the valve sties.

      An additional description of what the PTCL analysis is meant to represent physiologically would be helpful for readers. 

      We have better described the conversion of the calcium signals into “particles” for analysis at first mention in the methods and results section and have included the requisite reference to this specific methodology in Line 429-30. 

      A description of how DMAX is experimentally determined is needed. 

      We have adjusted our methods section to describe DMAX in line 774-775.

      “with Ca<sup>2+</sup>-free Krebs buffer (3mM EGTA) and diameter at each pressure recorded under passive conditions (DMAX).”

      I think the vessels referred to as popliteal lymphatic vessels are actually saphenous lymphatic vessels (afferent to the popliteal lymph node). Please clarify. 

      Indeed, some of the vessels used in this study are the afferents to the single popliteal node. They travel with the caudal branch of the saphenous vein, but have routinely been described as popliteal vessels, as opposed to saphenous lymphatic vessels, by the lymphatic field at large (Tilney 1971 PMCID: PMC1270981, Liao 2015 PMID: 25512945). To move away from this nomenclature would likely add to confusion although we agree that the lymphatic field may need to improve or correct the vessel naming paradigm to match the vascular pairs they follow.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      Lines 214-215 - can you cite a reference for the observation that rhythmic contractions don't require the presence of valves? 

      We have added the reference. In Dr. Van Helden’s seminal work on the topic in 1993, “Vessel segments were then cut from selected small lymphangions (length 300-500 um) by cutting at the valves.” Additionally, work by Dr Anatoliy Gashev utilized sections of lymphatic vessels that lacked valves to study orthograde and retrograde shear sensitivity (Gashev et al., 2002).

      Lines 224-230 - It would have been nice to see colocalization analysis for all cell types so that "negative" results could be compared with the "positives" that you report. This would help bolster evidence of your ability to separate cell types. 

      We understand the reviewer’s sentiment and agree. We have now added a “negative control” colocalization staining and analysis for PDGFR and Myh11 which has been added to the current SuppFigure 1. We stained 3 IALVs from 3 separate mice with PDGFRα and Myh11 and performed confocal microscopy. We ran the FIJI BIOP-JACOP colocalization plugin as before and observed very little colocalization of the two signals. Additionally, we have also added a coexpression assessment for CD34 and PDGFRα and other genes using our scRNAseq dataset.  

      line 293 - Should read "Cx45 in..." 

      This has been corrected. 

      “The expression of the genes critically involved in cLV function—Cav1.2, Ano1, and Cx45—in the PdgfrαCreER<sup>TM</sup>-ROSA26mTmG purified cells and scRNAseq data prompted us to generate PdgfrαCreER<sup>TM</sup>-Ano1<sup>fl/fl</sup>, PdgfrαCreER<sup>TM</sup>-Cx45<sup>fl/fl</sup>, and PdgfrαCreER<sup>TM</sup>-Cav1.2<sup>fl/fl</sup> mice for contractile tests.”

      lines 470-473 - A reference for this statement should be cited. 

      We have added the reference. In Dr. Van Helden’s seminal work on the topic in 1993, “Vessel segments were then cut from selected small lymphangions (length 300-500 um) by cutting at the valves.” Additionally, work by Dr Anatoliy Gashev utilized sections of lymphatic vessels that lacked valves to study orthograde and retrograde shear sensitivity (Gashev et al., 2002).

      Lines 483-487 - References should be cited for these statements. 

      We have narrowed and clarified this statement and supported it with the necessary citations. 

      “Of course, mesenchymal stromal cells (Andrzejewska et al., 2019) and fibroblasts (Muhl et al., 2020; Buechler et al., 2021; Forte et al., 2022) are present, and it remains controversial to what extent telocytes are distinct from or are components/subtypes of either cell type (Clayton et al., 2022). Telocytes are not monolithic in their expression patterns, displaying both organ directed transcriptional patterns as well as intra-organ heterogeneity (Lendahl et al., 2022) as readily demonstrated by recent single cell RNA sequencing studies that provided immense detail about the subtypes and activation spectrum within these cells and their plasticity (Luo et al., 2022).”

      Lines 584-585 - Missing a reference citation. 

      Thank you for catching this error, the correct citation was for Boedtkjer et al 2013 and is now properly cited. 

      Line 638 - "these this" should read "this" 

      Thank you for catching this error. This particular sentence was removed in light of the addition of the scRNAseq data.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      This manuscript from Zawieja et al. explored an interesting hypothesis about the pacemaker cells in lymphatic collecting vessels. Many aspects of lymphatic collecting vessels are still under investigation; hence this work provides timely knowledge about the lymphatic muscle cells as a pacemaker. Although it is an important topic of the investigation, the data provided do not support the overall goal of the manuscript. Many figures (Figure 1-5) provide quantitative estimation and the description provided in the results section might only be useful for a restricted audience, but not to the broader audience. Some of the figures are very condensed with multiple imaging panels and it is hard to follow the differences in qualitative analysis. Overall, this manuscript can be improved by more streamlined description/writing and figure arrangements (some of the figures/panels can be moved to the supplementary figures). 

      We disagree with the notion that the original data provided did not support the goal of the manuscript- to identify and test putative pacemaker cell types. Nonetheless we believe we have also added ample novel data to the manuscript, including membrane potential recordings and scRNAseq to highlight and to add further support to our conclusion that the pacemaker cell is an LMC. We believe the scRNAseq data will also greatly enhance the appeal of the manuscript to a broader audience and have renamed the manuscript in line with the wealth of data we have collected on the components of the vessel wall as we tested for putative pacemaker cells.

      As requested, we have moved many figures to the supplement to allow readers to focus more on the more critical experiments.

      A few other points that need to be addressed: 

      (1) Authors used immunofluorescence-based differences in various cell types in the collecting vessels. Initially, they chose ICLC, pericytes, and lymphatic muscle cells. But then they started following adventitial cells and endothelial cells. It is not clear from the description, why these other cells could be possibly involved in the pacemaker activity. It will be easier to follow if authors provide a graphical abstract or summary figure about their hypothesis and what is known from their and others' work. 

      We would like to clarify that we used the endothelial cells as controls to ensure what we observed via immunofluorescence and FACs RT-PCR were a separate cell type from either lymphatic muscle or lymphatic endothelial cells on the vessel wall. Staining for the endothelium also allowed us to assess where these PDGFRα+CD34+ cells reside in the vessel wall.  We started with a wide range of markers that are conventionally used for targeting specific cell types, but as expected those markers are not always 100% specific. Specifically, we focused on CD34, Kit, and Vimentin as those were the markers for the non-muscle cells observed in the lymphatic collecting vessel wall previously. What we found was that CD34 and PDGFRα labeled the same cell type. As there was not a CD34Cre mouse available at the time we instead utilized the inducible PDGFRαCreERTM. We are unsure how well an abstract figure will condense the conclusions from the experiments listed here but if absolutely required for publication we can attempt to highlight the representative cell populations identified on the vessel wall.

      (2) Authors used many acronyms in the manuscript without defining them (when they appeared for the first time). Please follow the convention. 

      We have checked the manuscript and made several corrections regarding the use of abbreviations.

      (3) How specific PDGFR-alpha as a marker of the pericytes? It can also label the mesenchymal cells. Why did the author choose PDGFR-alpha over beta for their Cre-based expression approach? 

      We tried to assess if there were a pericyte like cell present in or along the wall using PDGFRbeta (Pdgfrβ). Pdgfrβ is commonly used to identify pericytes (Winkler et al., 2010), while in contrast Pdgfrα is a known fibroblast marker (Lendahl et al., 2022). Pdgfrβ CreERT2 resulted in recombination in both LMCs and AdvCs, preventing it from being a discriminating marker for our study where as Myh11CreER<sup>T2</sup> and PDGFRαCreER<sup>TM</sup> were specific at least to cell type based on our FACSs-RT-PCR and staining. As you can tell from the scRNAseq data in Figure 5, there was no cell cluster that Pdgfrβ was specific for in contrast to PDGFRα and Myh11.  In Figure 6 we show the expression of another commonly used pericyte marker NG2 (Cspg4) in our scRNAseq dataset which was observed in both LMCs and AdvCs as well. Lastly, MCAM (Figure 6) can also be a marker for pericytes though we see only expression in the LMCs and LECs for this marker. Notably, almost all of the AdvCs express PDGFRα rendering the PDGFRαCreER<sup>TM</sup> a powerful tool to study this population of cells on the vessel wall including those that were PDGFRα+Cspg4+ or PDGFRα+ Pdgfrβ+.

      We were reliant on PDGFRαCreER<sup>TM</sup> as that was the only available PDGFRα Cre model at the time. Note we used PdgfrβCreER<sup>T2</sup> and Ng2Cre in our study but found that both Cre models recombined both LMCs and AdvCs.

      (4) Please include appropriate references for all the labeling markers (PDGFR-alpha, beta, and myc11 etc.) that are used in this manuscript. 

      We have added multiple references to the manuscript to support the use of these common cell “specific” markers as of course each marker is limited in some capacity to fully or specifically label a single population of cells (Muhl et al., 2020).

      (5) One of the criteria for the pacemaker cells is depolarization-induced propagated contractions. Authors have used optogenetics-induced depolarization to test this phenomenon. Please include negative controls for these experiments. 

      We have now added negative controls to this experiment which were non-induced (no tamoxifen) Myh11CreER<sup>T2</sup>-Chr2 popliteal vessels. This data has been added to the Figure 8.  

      (6) What are the resting membrane potentials of Lymphatic muscle cells? The authors should provide some details about this in the manuscript. 

      We agree with the reviewer and have added membrane potential recordings (Figure 13) at different pressures and filled our recording electrode with the cell labeling molecule BiocytinAF488 to highlight the action potential exhibiting cells, which were the LMCs. Lymphatic resting membrane potential is dynamic in pressurized vessels, which appears to be a critical difference in this approach as compared to pinned out vessels or those on wire myographs likely due to improper stretch or damage to the vessel wall. In mesenteric lymphatic vessels isolated from rats the minimum membrane potential achieved during repolarization ranges from -45 to 50mV typically while IALVs from mice are typically around -40mV, though IALVs have a notably higher contraction frequency. Critically, we have also added novel membrane potential recordings to this manuscript in IALVs at different pressures and show that the diastolic depolarization rate is the critical factor driving the pressure-dependent frequency.

      (7) In the discussion, the authors discussed SR Ca2+ cycling in Pacemaking, but the relevant data are not included in this manuscript, but a manuscript from JGP (in revision) is cross-referenced. 

      As discussed above, we have recently published our work where studied IALVs from Myh11CreERT2-Ip3R1fl/fl (Ip3r1ismKO) and Myh1CreERT2-Ip3r1fl/fl-Ip3r2fl/fl-Ip3r3fl/fl mice (Zawieja et al., 2023). Deletion of Ip3r1 from LMCs recapitulated the dramatic reduction in frequency we previously published in Myh11CreERT2-Ano1fl/fl mice and the loss of pressure dependent chronotropy. Furthermore, in this manuscript we also showed that the diastolic calcium transients are nearly completely lost in ILAVs from Myh11CreERT2-Ip3R1fl/fl knockout mice. There was no difference in the contractile function between IALVs from single Ip3r1 knockout and the triple Ip3r1-3 knockout mice suggesting that it is Ip3r1 that is required for the diastolic calcium oscillations. Further, in the presence of 1uM nifedipine there were still no calcium oscillations in the Myh11CreERT2-Ip3r1fl/fl LMCs. These findings provide further support for our interpretation that the pacemaking is of myogenic origin.

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      Castorena-Gonzalez, J.A., S.D. Zawieja, M. Li, R.S. Srinivasan, A.M. Simon, C. de Wit, R. de la Torre, L.A. Martinez-Lemus, G.W. Hennig, and M.J. Davis. 2018. Mechanisms of Connexin-Related Lymphedema. Circ Res. 123:964-985.

      Clayton, D.R., W.G. Ruiz, M.G. Dalghi, N. Montalbetti, M.D. Carattino, and G. Apodaca. 2022. Studies of ultrastructure, gene expression, and marker analysis reveal that mouse bladder PDGFRA(+) interstitial cells are fibroblasts. Am J Physiol Renal Physiol. 323:F299F321.

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    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      This study presents valuable observations of white matter organisation from diffusion MRI and two types of synchrotron imaging in both monkeys and mice. Cross-modality comparisons are interesting as the different methods are able to probe anatomical structures at different length scales, from single axons in high-resolution synchrotron (ESRF) imaging, to clusters of axons in lower-resolution synchrotron (DEXY) data, to axon populations at the mm-scale in diffusion MRI. By acquiring all modalities in monkey and mouse ex vivo samples, the authors can observe principles of fibre organisation, and characterise how fibre characteristics, such as tortuosity and micro-dispersion, vary across select brain regions and in healthy tissue versus a demyelination model. The results are solid, though some statements (in the abstract/discussion) do not appear to be fully supported, and statistical tests would help confirm whether tissue characteristics are similar/different between different conditions.

      R1.1: Thank you for the kind feedback. We have included statistical tests in the paper for tissue characteristics where appropriate.

      Due to the very high number of sample points (one per voxel) within the 3D synchrotron volumes, testing for statistical significance is challenging for the structure tensor-based tissue fractional anisotropy (FA) metric. This causes any standard statistical test to have sufficient power to evaluate even minute differences between the volumes as statistically significant with high confidence. In other words, the null hypothesis (H0) will always be rejected with p = 0, regardless of the practical significance of the difference. Therefore, we have not added statistical analysis for FA results.

      For the tractography based metrics, the number of sample points (one per streamline) is not as high as that for the structure tensor FA, thus making it more reasonable to test for statistical significance. The statistical analyses performed included tests for equality of distributions (Two-sample Kolmogorov-Smirnov tests), equality of medians (Two-sided Wilcoxon rank sum tests), and equality of variance (Brown-Forsythe tests). The results are described in relation to Figure 5(B, D), Figure 8(CF), and detailed in the Methods section.

      One very interesting result is the observation of apparent laminar organisation of fibres in ex vivo monkey white matter samples. DESY data from the corpus callosum shows fibres with two dominant orientations (one L-R, one slightly inclined), clustered in laminar structures within this major fibre bundle. Thanks to the authors providing open data, I was able to look through the raw DESY volume and observe regions with different "textures" (different orientations) in the described laminar arrangement. That this organisation can be observed by eye, as well as by structure tensor, is fairly convincing. As not all readers will download the data themselves, the manuscript could benefit from additional figures/videos to demonstrate (1) the quality of the DESY data and (2) a more 3D visualisation of the laminar structures (where the coronal plane shows convincing columnar structure or stripes). Similarly in Figure 5A, though this nicely depicts two populations with different orientations, it is somewhat difficult to see the laminar structure in the current image.

      ESRF data of the centrum semiovale (CS) contributes evidence for similar laminar structures in a crossing fibre region, where primarily AP fibres are shown to cluster in 3 laminar structures. As above, further visualisations of the ESRF volume in the CS (as shown in Figure 4E) would be of value (e.g. showing consistency across the 4 volumes, 2D images showing stripey/columnar patterns along different axes, etc).

      R1.2: Conveying complex 3D geometry through 2D still images is indeed challenging, and we greatly appreciate the reviewer’s comments and suggestions. To better communicate the understanding of the 3D anatomical environments, we have taken the following actions:

      (1) To enhance insights into the tractography results in Figures 5A and 5D, we have rendered and added animations of the tractography scenes as supplemental material.

      (2) To visually support 3D insights concerning the consistency of the laminar organisation of the callosal fibres, we have replaced the 2D slice views in Figures 3A and 3B with 3D renderings similar to the one in Figure 4E.

      (3) An animation of Figure 4E was created to display the colour-coded structure tensor directions of all four stacked scans. This animation visually supports the complexity of the fibre orientation and the layered structural laminar organisation of the CS sample.

      A key limitation of this result is that, though the DESY data from the CC seems convincing, the same structures were not observed in high-resolution synchrotron (ESRF) data of the same tissue sample in the corpus callosum. This seems surprising and the manuscript does not provide a convincing explanation for this inconsistency. The authors argue that this is due to the limited FOV of the ESRF data (~200x200x800 microns). However, the observed laminar structures in DESY are ~40 microns thick, and ERSF data from the CST suggests laminar thicknesses in the range of 5-40 microns with a similar FOV. This suggests the ERSF FOV would be sufficient to capture at least a partial description of the laminar organisation. Further, the DESY data from the CC shows columnar variations along the LR axis, which we might expect to be observed along the long axis of the ESFR volume of the same sample. Additional analyses or explanations to reconcile these apparently conflicting observations would be of value. For example, the authors could consider down-sampling the ESRF data in an appropriate manner to make it more similar to the DESY data, and running the same analysis, to see if the observed differences are related to resolution (i.e. the thinner laminar structures cluster in ways that they look like a thicker laminar structure at lower resolution), or crop the DESY data to the size of the ESRF volume, to test whether the observed differences can be explained by differences in FOV. Laminar structures were not observed in mouse data, though it is unclear if this is due to anatomical differences or somewhat related to differences in data quality across species.

      R1.3: We have clarified and expanded upon the results regarding the laminar organisation observed in the monkey CC DESY data. As noted in R1.2, we replaced the 2D images in Figures 3A (DESY) and 3B (ESRF) with 3D renderings to better display the spatial outline of the laminar organisation in the volumes. The reviewer is correct that, although the smaller field of view (FOV) of the ESRF data should allow us to at least partially capture parts of the laminar organisation observed in the larger FOV of the DESY data, this is not guaranteed. It depends on how the smaller FOV is positioned relative to the structural organisation, and since we lack co-registration, we do not know this. It should now be visually evident that the ESRF FOV can be placed such that it does not cover the observed laminae, a point which is now also emphasised in the Discussion. 

      Secondly, it is important to emphasise that the voxel colouring using the primary structure tensor direction is just a visualisation technique, which has limitations when it comes to assessing laminar organisation. Mapping 3D directions to RGB colours is inherently difficult and will always have ambiguities. If we had used the standard R-G-B to LR-AP-IS colouring in Figure 3, the laminar organisation would not be evident. Additionally, the laminae will only be visible when there are clear angular differences. There can still be a layered organisation even if we don’t observe it, which is the case for the mouse. The primary direction differences of these layers could be very low (i.e., parallel layers), and consequently not visually evident. This point has been clarified in both the Results and Discussion sections.

      Finally, in response to R1.6, we have added analyses regarding the shape of the FOD, specifically estimating the Orientation Dispersion Index (ODI) and Dispersion Anisotropy (DA). This provides further context to the reviewer’s comments about the discrepancies in laminar organisation. We have reflected on the relationship between DA and the visually observed laminar organisation, and this has been integrated into the relevant parts of the Results and Discussion sections.

      The changes to manuscript reflecting the statements above are listed here: 

      The Discussion section (page 21): “In the monkey CC DESY data, which has a field of view (FOV) comparable to a dMRI voxel, a columnar laminar organisation at a macroscopic level was visually revealed from the structure tensor (ST) direction colouring. However, this laminar organisation was not visible in the higher-resolution ESRF data for the same tissue sample. Although the two samples were not co-registered, the size of a single ESRF FOV within the DESY sample is illustrated in Fig. 3A. This demonstrates the possibility of placing the ESRF sample where the observed laminar structure is absent. Consequently, knowledge of the tissue structural organisation and its orientation is important to fully benefit from the stacked FOV of the ESRF sample and when choosing appropriate minimal FOV sizes in future experiments.

      Interestingly, when characterising FODs with measures like ODI and DA as indicators of fibre organisation, rather than relying on visualisation, results from large- and small-FOV data show no discrepancies. This statistical approach discards the spatial context (visually perceived as laminae), highlighting the need to combine both methods.” 

      The Results section (page 8): “The mid-level DA values suggest some anisotropic spread of the directions, reflecting the angled laminar organisation observed in the DESY sample. Interestingly, the DA value for the ESRF sample is almost identical, despite the laminar bands being less visually apparent.”

      The Results section (page 17): “Nevertheless, visualisation of orientations did not reveal any axonal organisation in the mouse CC due to the lack of local angular contrast, unlike the clear laminar structures seen in the monkey sample (Fig. 3A). Any parallel organisation in tissue remains undetectable because our visual contrast relies on angular differences.”

      The Discussion section (page 22): “In the monkey CC (mid-body), we observed laminar organisation indicated by clear spatial angular differences in the ST directions in the sample (Fig. 3A). Quantifications of the FOD shape showed DA indices of 0.55 and 0.59 for the DESY and ESRF samples, respectively. In contrast, the mouse CC (splenium) did not visually reveal a similar angled laminar organisation (Fig. 7C), and the DA indices were lower, at 0.49 and 0.32, respectively. Two possible explanations exist. First, the within-pathway laminar organisation may not be identical across the entire CC. Consequently, more scans from other CC regions would be required to confirm. Second, the different species might account for the differences. Larger brains like the monkey might foster a different level of within-pathway axon organisation compared to the smaller mouse. Although we could not visually detect laminar organisation from the colour coding of the ST direction in the mouse, the non-zero DA values suggest some level of organisation. This is supported by our streamline tractography, which indicates a vertical layered organisation (Fig. 8A, B). It further aligns with studies using histological tracer mapping that shows a stacked parallel organisation of callosal projections in mice, between cortex regions M1 and S1 (Zhou et al. 2013). Nevertheless, we cannot rely solely on voxel-wise ST directions to fully describe axonal organisation, as this method does not contrast almost parallel fasciculi (inclination angles approaching 0 degrees). Analysing patterns in tractography streamlines would be an interesting future direction for this purpose.”

      The authors further quantify various other characteristics of the white matter, such as micro-dispersion, tortuosity, and maximum displacement. Notably, the microscopic FA calculated via structure tensor is fairly consistent across regions, though not modalities. When fibre orientations are combined across the sample, they are shown to produce similar FODs to dMRI acquired in the same tissue, which is reassuring. As noted in the text, the estimates of tortuosity and max displacement are dependent on the FOV over which they are calculated. Calculating these metrics over the same FOV, or making them otherwise invariant to FOV, could facilitate more meaningful comparisons across samples and/or modalities.

      R1.4: This raises an interesting point about the necessity of normalising the FOV to obtain invariant, tractography-based metrics of tortuosity and maximum deviation across different samples and modalities. In general, achieving this is challenging, and in this study, it is practically not possible. Between species, we encounter significant differences in brain volume ratios, which complicates the establishment of a common reference FOV due to the distinct anatomical organisation of monkey and mouse brains (see our response to R1.8). Within species, we would encounter challenges due to missing contrast—such as issues with staining—and the lack of perfect co-registration.

      The Discussion section (page 28) has been extended to reflect this: ”Within the same species, assuming perfect co-registration of samples, it would be possible to perform correlative imaging and analysis. This would allow validation of whether tractography streamlines could be reproduced at different image resolutions within the same normalised FOV. Although this was not possible with the current data and experimental setup, it would be an interesting point to pursue in future work.”

      Though the results seem solid, some statements, particularly in the abstract and discussion, do not seem to be fully supported by the data. For example, the abstract states "Our findings revealed common principles of fibre organisation in the two species; small axonal fasciculi and major bundles formed laminar structures with varying angles, according to the characteristics of major pathways.", though the results show "no strong indication within the mouse CC of the axonal laminar organisation observed in the monkey". Similarly, the introduction states: "By these means, we demonstrated a new organisational principle of white matter that persists across anatomical length scales and species, which governs the arrangement of axons and axonal fasciculi into sheet-like laminar structures." Further comments on the text are provided below.

      R1.5: We understand that it can be misunderstood that the laminar organisation is identical in monkeys and mice, which is not the case. For example, we show that in the corpus callosum, pathways are parallel in the mouse but not in the monkey. We have clarified that while the principle of layered laminar organisation of pathways is shared between monkeys and mice, species-specific differences do exist.

      We have made the following clarifying changes to the manuscript:

      The Abstract (page 2): “Our findings revealed common principles of fibre organisation that apply despite the varying patterns observed across species” 

      The Introduction (page 4-5): “Through these methods, we demonstrated organisational principles of white matter that persists across anatomical length scales and species. These principles govern the organisation of axonal fasciculi into sheet-like laminar shapes (structures with a predominant planar arrangement). Interestingly, while these principles remain consistent, they result in varied structural organisations in different species.” 

      The Discussion (page 21): “despite species differences”.

      One observation not notably discussed in the paper is that the spherical histograms of Figure 3E/H appear to have an anisotropic spread of the white points about 0,0. It would be interesting if the authors could comment on whether this could be interpreted as the FOD having asymmetric dispersion and if so, whether the axis of dispersion relates to the fibre orientations of the laminar structures.

      R1.6: That is a good point, and to address it, we have fitted spherical Bingham distributions to the FODs, allowing us to quantify their shapes. From each Bingham distribution, we derived two wellknown indices from the diffusion MRI community: the Orientation Dispersion Index (ODI) and Dispersion Anisotropy (DA) index. The ODI explains the dispersion of fibres for a single bundle FOD, whereas DA expresses the shape of the FOD on the unit sphere surface, i.e., the degree of anisotropy. We have integrated the Bingham-based analysis into the Methods, Discussion, and Results sections concerning Figures 3 and 7, but not Figure 4, which contains multiple fibre bundles that we cannot separate on a voxel level. The analysis does not impact the overall message and conclusion but adds interesting context to the discussion around laminar organisation.

      A limitation of the study is that it considers only small ex vivo tissue samples from two locations in a single postmortem monkey brain and slightly larger regions of mouse brain tissue. Consequently, further evidence from additional brain regions and subjects would be required to support more generalised statements about white matter organisation across the brain.

      R1.7: Collecting more samples from various locations in the brain would provide valuable insights into the consistency of white matter organisation across anatomical length scales, as well as the structuretensor based anisotropy and tortuosity metrics. However, being awarded beamtime at two different synchrotron facilities to scan the same sample with different imaging setups is practically challenging. At the ESRF, we have gathered additional image volumes from other white matter regions of the monkey brain that support all our findings, which will be published separately. X-ray synchrotron imaging technology is advancing rapidly, with faster acquisition times enabling more image volumes to be stitched together. This extends the FOV and allows for a more robust statistical description of the anatomy. Consequently, future studies with an extended FOV and varying image resolutions could utilise a single synchrotron facility to collect additional samples, further supporting our findings.

      The Discussion section (page 27) has been extended to reflect this: “Increasing the number of samples across both species and examining laminar organisation at various length scales in more regions would strengthen our findings. However, securing beamtime at two different synchrotron facilities to scan the same sample with varying image resolutions is a limiting factor. Beamline development for multiresolution experimental setups, along with faster acquisition methods, is a rapidly advancing field. For instance, the Hierarchical Phase-Contrast Tomography (HiP-CT) imaging beamline at ID-18 at the ESRF, enables multi-resolution imaging within a single session to address this challenge, though it is currently limited to a resolution of 2.5 μm (Walsh et al. 2021).”

      Given the monkey results, the mouse study (section 2.5 onwards) lacks some motivation. In particular, it is unclear why a demyelination model was studied and if/how this would link to the laminar structure observed in the monkey data. Further, it is unclear how comparable tortuosity/max deviation values are across species, considering the differences in data quality and relative resolution, given that the presented results show these values are very modality-dependent.

      R1.8: We have clarified the motivation for including the mouse part of the study in both the Introduction and the Results sections.

      The Introduction section (page 5): “Furthermore, using a mouse model of focal demyelination induced by cuprizone (CPZ) treatment, we investigate the inflammation-related influence on axonal organisation. This is achieved through the same structure tensor-derived micro-anisotropy and tractography streamline metrics.”

      The Results section (page 15): “Finally, we investigated the organisation of fasciculi in both healthy mouse brains and a murine model of focal demyelination induced by five weeks of cuprizone (CPZ) treatment. This allowed for the exploration of the disease-related influence on axonal organisation, particularly under inflammation-like conditions with high glial cell density at the demyelination site (He et al. 2021). The experimental setup for DESY and ESRF is similar to that described for the monkey, with the exception that we did not perform dMRI and synchrotron imaging on the same brains, and only collected MRI data for healthy mouse brains. This approach allowed us to apply the same structure tensor and tractography streamline analysis used previously, but in a healthy versus disease comparison, demonstrating the methodology’s ability to provide insights into pathological conditions.”

      Across species, the comparison of tortuosity and maximum deviation must be approached with caution. On one hand, we observe a comparable influence of the extra-axonal environment in both the monkey and mice, as discussed in the section “Sources to the non-straight trajectories of axon fasciculi.” On the other hand, the anatomical scale and relative image resolution are significant factors, as correctly pointed out. In the mouse, for instance, the measures are influenced by white matter pathway macroscopic effects, making cross-species comparison challenging to perform in a normalised way.

      The limitations section of the Discussion (page 28) has been updated to reflect this: ”A limiting consequence of having samples imaged at differing anatomical scales is that certain measures become inherently hard to compare in a normalised way. The tractography-based metrics—tortuosity and maximum deviation—serve as good examples of this resolution and FOV dependence. In the ESRF samples, the anatomical scale was at the level of individual axons, and the streamline metrics primarily reflect micro-scale effects from the extra-axonal environment, such as the influence of cells and blood vessels. In comparison, the larger anatomical scale in the DESY samples represents the level of fasciculi and above, with metrics influenced by macroscopic effects, such as the bending of the CC pathway. Both scales are interesting and can provide valuable insights in their own right, but caution is required when comparing the numbers, especially for cross-species studies where there is a significant difference in brain volume ratios.”

      The paper introduces a new method of "scale-space" parameters for structure tensors. Since, to my understanding, this is the first description of the method, some simple validation of the method would be welcomed. Further, the same scale parameters are not used across monkeys and mice, with a larger kernel used in mice (Table 2) which is surprising given their smaller brain size. Some explanation would be helpful.

      R1.9: We have expanded the description of the scale-space structure tensor approach in the Methods section. Specifically, we have elaborated on the empirical process used to select the scale-space parameters shown in Table 2 and explained why multiple scales were applied only to the monkey samples scanned at ESRF (see Table 2, sample IDs 2 and 3) but not to the other datasets. Additionally, we have added a supplementary figure to assist in illustrating the concept.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this work, the authors combine diffusion MRI and high-resolution x-ray synchrotron phase-contrast imaging in monkey and mouse brains to investigate the 3D organization of brain white matter across different scales and species. The work is at the forefront of the anatomical investigation of the human connectome and aligns with several current efforts to bridge the resolution gap between what we can see in vivo at the millimeter scale and the complexity of the human brain at the sub-micron scale. The authors compare the 3D white matter organization across modalities within 2 small regions in one monkey brain (body of the corpus callosum, centrum semiovale) and within one region (splenium of the corpus callosum) in healthy mice and in one murine model of focal demyelination. The study compares measures of tissue anisotropy and fiber orientations across modalities, performs a qualitative comparison of fasciculi trajectories across brain regions and tissue conditions using streamlined tractography based on the structure tensor, and attempts to quantify the shape of fasciculi trajectories by measuring the tortuosity index and the maximum deviation for each reconstructed streamline. Results show measures of anisotropy and fiber orientations largely agree across modalities, especially for larger FOV data. The high-resolution data allows us to explore the fiber trajectories in relation to tissue complexity and pathology. The authors claim the study reveals new common organization principles of white matter fibers across species and scales, for which axonal fasciculi arrange into sheet-like laminar structures.

      Strengths:

      The aim of the study is of central importance within present efforts to bridge the gap between macroscopic structures observable in vivo in humans using conventional diffusion MRI and the microscopic organization of white matter tissue. Results obtained from this type of study are important to interpret data obtained in vivo, inform the development of novel methodologies, and expand our knowledge of the structural and thus functional organization of brain circuits.

      Multi-scale data acquired across modalities within the same sample constitute extremely valuable data that is often hard to acquire and represent a precious resource for validation of both diffusion MRI tractography and microstructure methods.

      The inclusion of multi-species data adds value to the study, allowing the exploration of common organization principles across species.

      The addition of data from a murine cuprizone model of focal demyelination adds interesting opportunities to study the underlying biological changes that follow demyelination and how these impact tissue anisotropy and fiber trajectories. These data can inform the interpretation and development of diffusion MRI microstructure models.

      Weaknesses:

      The main claim of a newly discovered laminar organization principle that is consistent across scales and species is not supported strongly enough by the data. The main evidence in support of the claim comes from the larger FOV data obtained from the body of the corpus callosum in the monkey brain. A laminar organization principle is partially shown in the centrum semiovale in the monkey brain and it is not shown in mice data. Additionally, the methods lack details to help the correct interpretation of these findings (e.g., how were these fasciculi defined?; how well do they represent different axonal populations?; what is the effect of blood vessels on the structure tensor reconstruction?; how was laminar separation quantified?) and the discussion does not provide a biological background for this organization. The corpus callosum sample suggests axons within a bundle of fibers are organized in a sheet-like fashion, while data from the centrum semiovale suggest fibers belonging to different fiber bundles are organized in a sheet-like arrangement. While I acknowledge the challenges in acquiring such high-resolution data, additional samples from different regions in the same animals and from different animals would help strengthen this claim.

      R2.1 

      -  how were these fasciculi defined?

      In the introduction (page 3), we have clarified our definition of an axon fasciculus: “A fasciculus is a bundle of axons that travel together over short or long distances. Its size and shape can vary depending on its internal organisation and its relationship to neighbouring fasciculi.”

      Additionally, we emphasise in the Results section (page 12) that the centroid streamlines are not guaranteed to be actual fasciculi, but rather representations of them. The paragraph now states: “To ease visualisation and quantification, we used QuickBundle clustering(Garyfallidis et al. 2012) to group neighbouring streamlines with similar trajectories into a centroid streamline. This centroid streamline serves as an approximation of the actual trajectory of a fasciculus.”

      - what is the effect of blood vessels on the structure tensor reconstruction?

      Fair point, that was not clear from our description. The clarification contains two parts. First, the estimation of the structure tensor occurs in all voxels, and in that sense, the blood vessels respond very similarly to axons. Second, when it comes to sample statistics derived from the structure tensor analysis (FA histograms and the FODs), they will have an influence, albeit a small one, given the low volume percentage of the blood vessels within the FOVs. In the monkey samples, segmenting the blood vessels was achievable with little effort, allowing us to exclude their contribution from FA statistics and FODs. To make this clear, we have added a paragraph to the Methods section (page 34) titled “Structure tensor-based quantifications,” reflecting this clarification. Additionally, we have restructured the entire structure tensor methods description (starting on page 32) as part of the reviewer comments in R1.6 and R1.9.

      - how was laminar separation quantified?

      We have added a clarification in Results section (page 7): “The laminar thickness was determined by manual measurements on laminae visually identified in the 3D volume”.

      - discussion does not provide a biological background for this organization.

      A good point. Including the biological background is relevant as it supports the laminar organisation of white matter pathways observed in our findings and those of others.

      We have added a section on this background in the Discussion (page 24): “We believe our observed topological rule of white matter laminar organisation can be explained by a biological principle known from studies of nervous tissue development. The first axons to reach their destination, guided by their growth cones, are known as “pioneering” axons. “Follower” axons use the shaft of the pioneering axon for guidance to efficiently reach the target region (Breau and Trembleau 2023). Axons can form a fasciculus by fasciculating or defasciculating along their trajectory through a zippering or unzipping mechanism, controlled by chemical, mechanical, and geometrical parameters. Zippering “glues” the axons together, while unzipping allows them to defasciculate at a low angle (Šmít et al. 2017). Although speculative, the zippering mechanism may be responsible for forming the laminar topology observed across length scales. The defasciculation effect can explain our results in the corpus callosum (CC) of monkeys, with laminar structures at low angles (~35 degrees) also observed by (Innocenti et al. 2019; Caminiti et al. 2009), as well as in other major pathways (Sarubbo et al. 2019). In contrast, a fasciculation mechanism may be observed in the mouse CC (0 degrees). If the geometrical angle between two axons is high, i.e., toward 90 degrees, the zippering mechanism will not occur, and the two axons (fasciculi) will cross (Šmít et al. 2017). This supports our and other findings that crossing fasciculi or pathways occur at high angles toward 90 degrees in the fully matured brain (Wedeen et al. 2012). Once myelination begins, the zippering mechanism is lost (Šmít et al. 2017), suggesting that laminar topology is established at the earliest stages of brain maturation.”

      - additional samples from different regions in the same animals and from different animals would help strengthen this claim

      Reviewer #1 also pointed to the inclusion of additional samples, and this is now discussed as part of the study limitations on page 27 (see also R1.7).

      The main goal of the study is to bridge the organization of white matter across anatomical length scales and species. However, given the substantial difference in FOVs between the two imaging modalities used, and the absence of intermediate-resolution data, it remains difficult to effectively understand how these results can be used to inform conventional diffusion MRI. In this sense, the introduction does not do a good enough job of building a strong motivation for the scientific questions the authors are trying to answer with these experiments and for the specific methodology used.

      R2.2: Indeed, this is an essential point now emphasised in the introduction, page 3, which now states: ”Despite the limited resolution of dMRI, the water diffusion process can reveal microstructural geometrical features, such as axons and cell bodies, though these features are compounded at the voxel level. Consequently, estimating microstructural characteristics depends on biophysical modelling assumptions, which can often be simplistic due to limited knowledge of the 3D morphology of cells and axons and their intermediate-level topological organisation within a voxel. Thus, complementary highresolution imaging techniques that directly capture axon morphology and fasciculi organisation in 3D across different length scales within an MRI voxel are essential for understanding anatomy and improving the accuracy of dMRI-based models(Alexander et al. 2019).”

      Additionally, in the introduction, page 4, we have made the following changes to strengthen the link across modalities, such that it now states: “In the x-ray synchrotron data, we applied a scale-space structure tensor analysis, which allowed for the quantification of structure tensor-derived tissue anisotropy and FOD in the same anatomical regime indirectly detected by dMRI.”

      The cuprizone data represent a unique opportunity to explore the effect of demyelination on white matter tissue. However, this specific part of the study is not well motivated in the introduction and seems to represent a missed opportunity for further exploration of the qualitative and quantitative relationship between diffusion MRI and sub-micron tissue information (although unfortunately not within the same brain sample). This is especially true considering the diffusion MRI protocol for mice would allow extrapolation of advanced measures from different tissue compartments.

      R2.3: A similar point was raised by Reviewer 1 (R1.8), and we have clarified the motivation for including the healthy mice and the demyelination samples.  

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Many thanks to the authors for providing open data. This was very helpful when reviewing the manuscript and is a valuable resource for the community.

      R1.10: We are happy to share our data with the community. Understanding anatomy in 3D is hard to achieve through still images and animations, so the ability to explore it on your own is quite important. The link to the data repository has been added in the Methods section in the following paragraph: “Due to the size of the data selected, processed image volumes, masks and results are available at https://zenodo.org/records/10458911. Other datasets can be shared on request.“

      One confusing element of the paper is that orientations (or axes) do not seem to be consistent across samples/modalities. For example, the green tensors in Figures 3 C and D are tilted up/down in opposite directions and the streamlines in Figure 5A seem opposite (SL) from what we would expect from Figure 2A (SR). Having consistent orientations across modalities and images would help the reader. When colouring tensors (e.g. in Figure 3), the authors could consider a 3D colour scheme (similar to that used by diffusion MRI) rather than colouring by only inclination, as this would provide useful information on whether different laminae have similar orientations, as implied by the tractography in Figure 4.

      R1.11: Thank you for spotting the suboptimal consistency between Figures 2, 3, and 5. Figure 2 has been corrected and updated. The left-right direction in the coronal views was not correctly displayed. Additionally, the glyph directions have been updated in Figures 2 and 3.

      By default, we use the “standard” RGB colour scheme used in dMRI. However, for the monkey CC— essentially Figure 3—this did not effectively illustrate our findings. We decided to use a different directional colour encoding scheme, which captures the angular deviation from the L-R axis. This was to assist in the visualisation of the inclination angle between the laminars. We have used the same colour scheme for the tensors in Figure 3 to avoid confusion.

      On a general note, the standard colour scheme has uniform “colour contrast” in all directions, but when there is only a single dominant direction in the sample, it can make sense to concentrate the colour contrast in that axis.

      Results: "even higher FA anisotropy in the micro-tensor domain of 0.997, i.e., the micro (μ)FA (20, 21)." I understand these references lead to a definition of μFA that is based on multiple diffusion tensor encodings which is quite different from that suggested by Kaden. It may be preferable to reference Kaden directly (since I understand this is the method used) to avoid confusion.

      R1.12: Correctly spotted, and we now reference the method from Kaden et al. and use the other references elsewhere when relevant.

      "and scanned the mouse brain in a whole." - typo?

      R1.13: Thank you for spotting the typo. The mouse brain was kept in the skull during MRI scanning, which has been clarified in the Methods section.

      The crossing fibre region appears to be sometimes referred to as the centrum semiovale, and other times as the CST. CS seems the better description and keeping this naming consistent would avoid confusion to the reader.

      R1.14: Well spotted, thank you. We have replaced the usage of Corticospinal Tract (CST) with centrum semiovale (CS) where relevant.

      Direct comments on the text:

      Abstract: "Individual axon fasciculi exhibited tortuous paths .... in a manner independent of fibre complexity and demyelination"

      Do statistical comparisons of the various distributions support this? The data shows somewhat increased tortuosity in the CST compared to the CC, and somewhat lower tortuosity in CPZ tissue.

      R1.15: The intention of the text was not to point to the comparison of tortuosity, but rather to highlight the maximum deviation. We observe a high probability density of maximum deviations at approximately 5-10 microns in all samples, which corresponds to the size of structures in the extraaxonal environment, such as blood vessels and cells.

      Additionally, we understand that the original statement might imply an expectation of a statistical analysis demonstrating independence, which is not the case. To clarify, we have reformulated the sentence in the Abstract (page 2) to address these points: “Fasciculi exhibited non-straight paths around obstacles like blood vessels, comparable across the samples of varying fibre complexity and demyelination.”

      Abstract: "A quantitative analysis of tissue anisotropies and fibre orientation distributions gave consistent results for different anatomical length scales and modalities, while being dependent on the field-of-view."

      To my understanding, the FODs here from different modalities are calculated over different FOVs (in monkeys at least), and FODs are only presented for a single FOV for each modality, meaning it is difficult to separate the effects of modality from FOV. The microscopic anisotropy is also noticeably different across modalities (DESY < ESRF < dMRI).

      R1.16: That is a fair point. Our statement was trying to capture too much condensed content to be correctly interpretable. We have reformulated the sentence to state: “Quantifications of fibre orientation distributions were consistent across anatomical length scales and modalities, whereas tissue anisotropy had a more complex relationship, both dependent on the field-of-view”.

      While it is true that we only present the ST-derived quantifications – FOD and FA statistics – for a single FOV per modality and sample, the results shown for the ESRF monkey samples (Figures 3 and 4) are a merge of four individually processed volumes. The quantifications of each individual subFOV have now been added as a supplementary figure (Figure S3) to highlight the consistency of the methodology and the effect of shifting the FOV position. In the case of the mouse, we have two volumes from different mice, which also display similar FOD and FA statistics.

      Abstract: "Our study emphasises the need to balance field-of-view and voxel size when characterising white matter features across anatomical length scales."

      This point does not seem very well explored in the paper, rather it is an observation of the limitations of the different imaging modalities. For example, there aren't analyses to compare metrics from highresolution data at different FOVs (i.e. by taking neighbourhoods of different sizes), nor are metrics compared from data at different resolutions and the same FOV.

      R1.17: The question is related to R1.16, R1.4, and R1.8, and we have addressed this point in our responses to those comments.

      Figure 7 - Taking into account the eigenvalues can be helpful when interpreting the secondary and tertiary eigenvectors of tensors (V2 and V3). It would be interesting to know whether the eigenvalues L2 ~= L3 are approximately equal (suggesting isotropic diffusion about V1, where the definition of V2 versus V3 isn't very meaningful), or if L2 is noticeably larger than L3 (suggesting anisotropic diffusion about V1, potentially similar to the anisotropic dispersion discussed above).

      R1.18: It would be interesting to explore the eigenvalues of the structure tensor in more detail, as has been done for the diffusion tensor. However, we believe this belongs to future work, as such additional detailed methodological analysis would complicate the already complex story. As mentioned in response to R1.10, most processed data has been made publicly available, and the rest can be requested (due to the storage size of the data sets) to perform such additional analysis.

      Discussion: "Importantly, our findings revealed common principles of fibre organisation in both monkeys and mice; small axonal fasciculi and major bundles formed sheet-like laminar structures," See above regarding the lack of evidence for laminar structures in mouse data.

      R1.19: We have reformulated the text for clarification as part of R1.3. Additionally, we added FOD quantifications to support why we do not observe an apparent laminar organisation in the mouse CC— please see our response to R1.6.

      Discussion: "Interestingly, the dispersion magnitude is indicative of fasciculi that skirt around obstacles in the white matter such as cells and blood vessels, and the results are largely independent of both white matter complexity (straight vs crossing fibre region) and pathology." Again, do statistical tests of the various distributions support this?

      R1.20: As part of R1.1, we have added statistical tests of significance for the quantifications of how max deviation changes when bending around objects. Indeed, the distributions are not statistically the same, and we do not wish to convey that sentiment, but they are comparable in the object sizes that they detect. As done in the abstract, we have reformulated the sentence to avoid misunderstanding and have replaced “largely independent” with “observed across.”

      Discussion: "Tax et al. have demonstrated the calculation of a sheet probability index from diffusion MRI data, which suggested the presence of sheet-like features in the CC"

      My understanding was that this was observed in crossing fibre regions, such as where fibres projecting with the CC cross the CST, but not the main body of the CC itself. Tax defines sheet structure as "composed of two tracts that cross each other on the same surface in certain regions along their trajectories." Is this a different phenomenon to the laminar structures observed here (where we observe fibres within a single tract being locally organised into laminar structures)?

      R1.21: Thank you for pointing our attention to this. We have corrected the section in the Discussion (page 23), so it now states: “Additionally, Tax et al. have demonstrated the calculation of a gridcrossing sheet probability index from diffusion MRI data, which suggested the presence of sheet-like features in a crossing fibre region (Tax et al. 2016), which is in line with our findings in the synchrotron data. Note that the method by Tax et al. only detects sheet-like structures crossing on a grid and does not reveal laminar structures with lower inclination angles, as we observed in the monkey CC.”

      Discussion: "We found that FODs were consistent across image resolutions and modalities, but only given that the FOV is the same." See above.

      R1.22: As part of our response to R1.6, we quantified the FODs using the ODI and DA indices, which should help support our statement. Nevertheless, we have toned down the statement and reformulated the text as follows: “We found that FODs were comparable across image resolutions and modalities. The observed discrepancies can be attributed to the fact that the FOVs are not exactly matched.”

      Discussion: "microscopic FA were highly correlated across modalities."

      The data shows FA is considerably lower in DESY to ESRF; within modality FA is quite consistent irrespective of tissue region; and differences between the CC and CG shown in ESRF data in mice are not repeated in DESY. It is unclear from the current data if this would lead to a high correlation across modalities. Some evidence would be helpful.

      R1.23: This is a fair point; we have not performed a correlation analysis. However, the pattern we observe for the synchrotron samples is as follows: When the anatomical length scale increases (becomes more macroscopic), the FA distribution shifts to lower values. This reflects the scale of information captured with the ST analysis (see also R1.9). Therefore, the most interesting comparison of FA statistics occurs when the resolution and anatomical length scale are approximately the same.  The sentence in question has been reformulated to the following: ”Estimates of structure tensor derived microscopic FA show a clear pattern across modalities.”

      Discussion: "If so, the (inclination angle) information might serve to form rules for low-resolution diffusion MRI based tractography about how best to project through bottleneck regions, which is currently a source of false-positives trajectories (6)."

      This is an interesting idea but it is unclear to me how this inclination information would help track through bottlenecks where, by definition, fibres are passing through with the same orientation. Some further explanation would be helpful.

      R1.24: We have elaborated on the section in the Discussion (page 23), explaining how this can be used to improve tractography tracing through complex regions: “The reason is that standard tractography methods do not "remember" or follow anatomical organisation rules as they trace through complex regions. Our findings on pathway lamination and inclination angles—low for parallel-like trajectories and high for crossing-like trajectories—can help incorporate trajectory memory into these methods, reducing the risk of false trajectories”.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Below I report comments that if addressed I believe would improve the clarity and readability of the manuscript.

      -  Figures 1 and 2 would be more meaningful if combined into one figure. This would allow for a direct visual comparison of the two modalities. If space is needed, I believe the second row of Figure 1 (coronal views of CC) does not add much information. It is often hard to navigate the different orientations of the tissue in the images; thus any effort in trying to help the reader visually clarify would improve readability.

      R2.4: We considered the reviewer’s suggestion to merge Figures 2 and 3. However, this made both the figures and the main text additionally complex, so we chose to retain the original figure layout. Secondly, Figure 3 utilises a non-standard directional colormap. Keeping the colormap consistent within each figure is a feature we wish to preserve. In response to R1.11, the figures have been updated to have more consistent orientations for the monkey samples.

      In Figure 2, the second row, showing a coronal view of the CC, is essential for comparison with human data in Figure S1. It highlights where we observed the columnar laminar organisation and their inclination angle, as also detected by DTI.

      -  Figure 4 shows synchrotron data revealing an anterior-posterior component within the centrum semiovale that is not necessarily seen in the dMRI data. Could the authors comment on this?

      R2.5: Thank you for pointing this out. We have now addressed this in the Results section (page 10), where we describe the observation in detail: “Interestingly, visual inspection of the colour-coded structure tensor directions in Fig. 4E shows the existence of voxels whose primary direction is along the A-P axis. However, this represents a small enough portion of the volume that it does not appear as a distinct peak on the FOD.“

      -  The authors claim they observed several purple axons crossing orthogonally in Figure 5c. However, that is not necessarily clear in the figure.

      R2.6: We appreciate the feedback. We have now coloured the streamlines of the crossing fasciculi in Figure 5C in red.

      -  Figure 5 would benefit from adding the color encoding scheme for Figure 5d, as sometimes this is not necessarily consistent.

      R2.7: We appreciate the feedback. We have added an indication of the standard directional colour coding to Figure 5D.

      -  Figure 5d shows interesting data from the complex region. However, it is hard to visualize and it looks like there are not many streamlines traveling entirely I-S? Maybe a different orientation of the sample would help visualization.

      R2.8: A similar point was raised by Reviewer 1 (see R1.2). We have added an animation of the scene to assist in the interpretation of the 3D organisation within this complex sample.

      -  The concept of axon fasciculi is not necessarily immediately clear. Adding an explanation for what the authors refer to when using this term would improve clarity.

      R2.9: In the introduction, we now state our conceptual definition of an axon fasciculus as a number of axons that follow each other (see also R2.1).

      -  The methods do not provide details on how structure tensor FA is measured.

      R2.10: Thank you for pointing this out. We have restructured and expanded the structure tensor description in the Methods section (see also R1.9 and R2.1), which now includes the definition of FA.

      -  Why didn't the authors select the same cc region for both mice and monkeys? It seems this would have increased the strength of the comparison.

      R2.11: We agree. The reason lies in the chronology of experiments and the fact that we cannot control where demyelination takes place. We have added a clarifying description in the Methods section (page 31): “Note that several separate beamline experiments were conducted to collect the volumes listed in Table 1. In the first two experiments, samples from the monkey brain were scanned at ESRF and DESY, respectively. The samples from the mouse brain were imaged in two subsequent experiments. Consequently, the location of the identified demyelinating lesion in the cuprizone mice, which cannot be precisely controlled, did not match the location of the CC biopsies in the monkey.”

      -  While it is mentioned in the results, the methods do not explain how vessel segmentations or cell segmentation in mice was performed and for which datasets it was performed.

      R2.12: For the small ROI shown in Figure 6, the labelling was a manual process using the software ITK-SNAP, which has now been clarified in the corresponding figure caption. The generation of ROI masks and blood vessel segmentations involved a combination of intensity thresholding, morphological operations, and manual labelling in ITK-SNAP. This has been clarified in the restructured and expanded description of structure tensor analysis in the Methods section (starting on page 32).

      -  From the methods it is hard to understand (1) how many mice were used; (2) why dMRI was done on a different sample; (3) whether the same selenium region was selected for both healthy and CPZ animals; (4) how the registration across samples was performed.

      R2.13: We appreciate the feedback and have inserted clarifying statements in the relevant parts of the Methods section. (1) The total number of mice included was three: one normal, one cuprizone, and one normal for MRI scanning. (2) The quality of the collected dMRI on the mouse was too poor to use, and it could not be redone as the brain had already been sliced and prepared for synchrotron experiments. (3) The same splenium section was selected for both healthy and cuprizone mice. (4) A paragraph on image registration has been added.

      -  Diffusion MRI method sections would benefit from additional details on the protocols used.

      R2.14: Thank you for pointing this out. We have added more details about the diffusion MRI protocols, including the b-value, gradient strength, and other relevant parameters.

    1. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Here the authors address the idea that postural and movement control are differentially impacted with stroke. Specifically, they examined whether resting postural forces influenced several metrics of sensorimotor control (e.g., initial reach angle, maximum lateral hand deviation following a perturbation, etc.) during movement or posture. The authors found that resting postural forces influenced control only following the posture perturbation for the paretic arm of stroke patients, but not during movement. They also found that resting postural forces were greater when the arm was unsupported, which correlated with abnormal synergies (as assessed by the Fugl-Meyer). The authors suggest that these findings can be explained by the idea that the neural circuitry associated with posture is relatively more impacted by stroke than the neural circuitry associated with movement. They also propose a conceptual model that differentially weights the reticulospinal tract (RST) and corticospinal tract (CST) to explain greater relative impairments with posture control relative to movement control, due to abnormal synergies, in those with stroke.

      Comments on revisions:

      The authors should be commended for being very responsive to comments and providing several further requested analyses, which have improved the paper. However, there is still some outstanding issues that make it difficult to fully support the provided interpretation.

      The authors say within the response, "We would also like to stress that these perturbations were not designed so that responses are directly compared to each other ***(though of course there is an *indirect* comparison in the sense that we show influence of biases in one type of perturbation but not the other)***." They then state in the first paragraph of the discussion that "Remarkably, these resting postural force biases did not seem to have a detectable effect upon any component of active reaching but only emerged during the control of holding still after the movement ended. The results suggest a dissociation between the control of movement and posture." The main issue here is relying on indirect comparisons (i.e., significant in one situation but not the other), instead of relying on direct comparisons. Using well-known example, just because one group / condition might display a significant linear relationship (i.e., slope_1 > 0) and another group / condition does not (slope_2 = 0), does not necessarily mean that the two groups / conditions are statistically different from one another [see Figure 1 in Makin, T. R., & Orban de Xivry, J. J. (2019). Ten common statistical mistakes to watch out for when writing or reviewing a manuscript. eLife, 8, e48175.].

      The authors have provided reasonable rationale of why they chose certain perturbation waveforms for different. Yet it still holds that these different waveforms would likely yield very different muscular responses making it difficult to interpret the results and this remains a limitation. From the paper it is unknown how these different perturbations would differentially influence a variety of classic neuromuscular responses, including short-range stiffness and stretch reflexes, which would be at play here.

      Much of the results can be interpreted when one considers classic neuromuscular physiology. In Experiment 1, differences in resting postural bias in supported versus unsupported conditions can readily be explained since there is greater muscle activity in the unsupported condition that leads to greater muscle stiffness to resist mechanical perturbations (Rack, P. M., & Westbury, D. R. (1974). The short-range stiffness of active mammalian muscle and its effect on mechanical properties. The Journal of physiology, 240(2), 331-350.). Likewise muscle stiffness would scale with changes in muscle contraction with synergies. Importantly for experiment 2, muscle stiffness is reduced during movement (Rack and Westbury, 1974) which may explain why resting postural biases do not seem to be impacting movement. Likewise, muscle spindle activity is shown to scale with extrafusal muscle fiber activity and forces acting through the tendon (Blum, K. P., Campbell, K. S., Horslen, B. C., Nardelli, P., Housley, S. N., Cope, T. C., & Ting, L. H. (2020). Diverse and complex muscle spindle afferent firing properties emerge from multiscale muscle mechanics. eLife, 9, e55177.). The concern here is that the authors have not sufficiently considered muscle neurophysiology, how that might relate to their findings, and how that might impact their interpretation. Given the differences in perturbations and muscle states at different phases, the concern is that it is not possible to disentangle whether the results are due to classic neurophysiology, the hypothesis they propose, or both. Can the authors please comment.

      The authors should provide a limitations paragraph. They should address 1) how they used different perturbation force profiles, 2) the muscles were in different states which would change neuromuscular responses between trial phase / condition, 3) discuss a lack of direct statistical comparisons that support their hypothesis, and 4) provide a couple of paragraphs on classic neurophysiology, such as muscle stiffness and stretch reflexes, and how these various factors could influence the findings (i.e., whether they can disentangle whether the reported results are due to classic neurophysiology, the hypothesis they propose, or both).

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Govindan and Conrad use a genome-wide CRISPR screen to identify genes regulating retention of intron 4 in OGT, leveraging an intron retention reporter system previously described (PMID: 35895270). Their OGT intron 4 reporter reliably responds to O-GlcNAc levels, mirroring the endogenous splicing event. Through a genome-wide CRISPR knockout library, they uncover a range of splicing-related genes, including multiple core spliceosome components, acting as negative regulators of OGT intron 4 retention. They choose to follow up on SFSWAP, a largely understudied splicing regulator shown to undergo rapid phosphorylation in response to O-GlcNAc level changes (PMID: 32329777). RNA-sequencing reveals that SFSWAP depletion not only promotes OGT intron 4 splicing but also broadly induces exon inclusion and intron splicing, affecting decoy exon usage. While this study offers interesting insights into intron retention and O-GlcNAc signaling regulation, the RNA sequencing experiments lack the essential controls needed to provide full confidence to the authors' conclusions.

      Strengths:

      (1) This study presents an elegant genetic screening approach to identify regulators of intron retention, uncovering core spliceosome genes as unexpected positive regulators of intron retention.

      (2) The work proposes a novel functional role for SFSWAP in splicing regulation, suggesting that it acts as a negative regulator of splicing and cassette exon inclusion, which contrasts with expected SR-related protein functions.

      (3) The authors suggest an intriguing model where SFSWAP, along with other spliceosome proteins, promotes intron retention by associating with decoy exons.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The conclusions on SFSWAP impact on alternative splicing are based on cells treated with two pooled siRNAs for five days. This extended incubation time without independent siRNA treatments raises concerns about off-target effects and indirect effects from secondary gene expression changes, potentially limiting confidence in direct SFSWAP-dependent splicing regulation. Rescue experiments and shorter siRNA-treatment incubation times could address these issues.

      (2) The mechanistic role of SFSWAP in splicing would benefit from further exploration. Key questions remain, such as whether SFSWAP directly binds RNA, specifically the introns and exons (including the decoy exons) it appears to regulate. Furthermore, given that SFSWAP phosphorylation is influenced by changes in O-GlcNAc signaling, it would be interesting to investigate this relationship further. While generating specific phosphomutants may not yield definitive insights due to redundancy and also beyond the scope of the study, the authors could examine whether distinct SFSWAP domains, such as the SR and SURP domains, which likely overlap with phosphorylation sites, are necessary for regulating OGT intron 4 splicing.

      (3) Data presentation could be improved (specific suggestions are included in the recommendations section). Furthermore, Excel tables with gene expression and splicing analysis results should be provided as supplementary datasheets. Finally, a more detailed explanation of statistical analyses is necessary in certain sections.

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:<br /> This study addresses the roles of polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs) in animal physiology and membrane function. A C. elegans strain carrying the fat-2(wa17) mutation possess a very limited ability to synthesize PUFAs and there is no dietary input because the E. coli diet consumed by lab grown C. elegans does not contain any PUFAs. The fat-2 mutant strain was characterized to confirm that the worms grow slowly, have rigid membranes, and have a constitutive mitochondrial stress response. The authors showed that chemical treatments or mutations known to increase membrane fluidity did not rescue growth defects. A thorough genetic screen was performed to identify genetic changes to compensate for the lack of PUFAs. The newly isolated suppressor mutations that compensated for FAT-2 growth defects included intergenic suppressors in the fat-2 gene, as well as constitutive mutations in the hypoxia sensing pathway components EGL-9 and HIF-1, and loss of function mutations in ftn-2, a gene encoding the iron storage protein ferritin. Taken together, these mutations lead to the model that increased intracellular iron, an essential cofactor for fatty acid desaturases, allows the minimally functional FAT-2(wa17) enzyme to be more active, resulting in increased desaturation and increased PUFA synthesis.

      Strengths:<br /> (1) This study provides new information further characterizing fat-2 mutants. The authors measured increased rigidity of membranes compared to wild type worms, however this rigidity is not able to be rescued with other fluidity treatments such as detergent or mutants. Rescue was only achieved with polyunsaturated fatty acid supplementation.<br /> (2) A very thorough genetic suppressor screen was performed. In addition to some internal fat-2 compensatory mutations, the only changes in pathways identified that are capable of compensating for deficient PUFA synthesis was the hypoxia pathway and the iron storage protein ferritin. Suppressor mutations included an egl-9 mutation that constitutively activates HIF-1, and Gain of function mutations in hif-1 that are dominant. This increased activity of HIF conferred by specific egl-9 and hif-1 mutations lead to decreased expression of ftn-2. Indeed, loss of ftn-2 leads to higher intracellular iron. The increased iron apparently makes the FAT-2 fatty acid desaturase enzyme more active, allowing for the production of more PUFAs.<br /> (3) The mutations isolated in the suppressor screen show that the only mutations able to compensate for lack of PUFAs were ones that increased PUFA synthesis by the defective FAT-2 desaturase, thus demonstrating the essential need for PUFAs that cannot be overcome by changes in other pathways. This is a very novel study, taking advantage of genetic analysis of C. elegans, and it confirms the observations in humans that certain essential PUFAs are required for growth and development.<br /> (4) Overall, the paper is well written, and the experiments were carried out carefully and thoroughly. The conclusions are well supported by the results.

      Weaknesses:<br /> Overall, there are not many weaknesses. The main one I noticed is that the lipidomic analysis shown in Figs 3C, 7C, S1 and S3. Whie these data are an essential part of the analysis and provide strong evidence for the conclusions of the study, it is unfortunate that the methods used did not enable the distinction between two 18:1 isomers. These two isomers of 18:1 are important in C. elegans biology, because one is a substrate for FAT-2 (18:1n-9, oleic acid) and the other is not (18:1n-7, cis vaccenic acid). Although rarer in mammals, cis-vaccenic acid is the most abundant fatty acid in C. elegans and is likely the most important structural MUFA. The measurement of these two isomers is not essential for the conclusions of the study, but the manuscript should include a comment about the abundance of oleic vs vaccenic acid in C. elegans (authors can find this information, even in the fat-2 mutant, in other publications of C. elegans fatty acid composition). Otherwise, readers who are not familiar with C. elegans might assume the 18:1 that is reported is likely to be mainly oleic acid, as is common in mammals.

      Other suggestions to authors to improve the paper:<br /> (1) The title could be less specific; it might be confusing to readers to include the allele name in the title.<br /> (2) There are two errors in the pathway depicted in Figure 1A. The16:0-16:1 desaturation can be performed by FAT-5, FAT-6, and FAT-7. The 18:0-18:1 desaturation can only be performed by FAT-6 and FAT-7

    1. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this work, the authors wish to explore the metabolic support mechanisms enabling lamellocyte encapsulation, a critical antiparasitic immune response of insects. They show that S-adenosylmethionine metabolism is specifically important in this process through a combination of measurements of metabolite levels and genetic manipulations of this metabolic process.

      Strengths:

      The metabolite measurements and the functional analyses are generally very strong and clearly show that the metabolic process under study is important in lamellocyte immune function.

      Weaknesses:

      The gene expression data are a potential weakness. Not enough is explained about how the RNAseq experiments in Figures 2 and 4 were done, and the representation of the data is unclear. The paper would also be strengthened by the inclusion of some measure of encapsulation effectiveness: the authors show that manipulation of the S-adenosylmethionine pathway in lamellocytes affects the ability of the host to survive infection, but they do not show direct effects on the ability of the host to encapsulate wasp eggs.

    2. Author response:

      We would like to thank the editors and reviewers for reviewing our work, for finding it valuable supported by convincing data, which we greatly appreciate, but also for identifying the weaknesses of the manuscript. We plan to address these weaknesses in the revised version, briefly as follows:

      (1) In the Discussion, we will elaborate more on a possible generalization of our results, while being aware of the limited space in this experimental paper and therefore intend to address this in more detail and comprehensively in a subsequent perspective article.

      (2) In the Discussion, we will more clearly address the limitations of our work, in particular the difference between the measurement of extracellular adenosine production ex vivo and the actual production in vivo, where the measurement is indeed very challenging, and also the limitations of manipulating the SAM pathway only at the Ahcy level.

      (3) We will describe in detail and complement the supplementary RNAseq data. The RNAseq data have already been described in detail in our previous paper (doi.org/10.1371/journal.pbio.3002299), but we agree with the reviewers that we should describe the necessary details again here.

      (4) We will fill in the missing data on encapsulation efficiency; we agree that it was unfortunate to omit them.

      (5) We will supplement the data with methyltransferase expressions and better describe the changes in expression of some SAM pathway genes, which, especially with methyltransferase expressions, also support stimulation of this pathway by changes in expression. Although the goal of this work was to test by 13C-labeling whether SAM pathway activity is upregulated, not to analyze how the activity is regulated, we certainly agree that an explanation of possible regulation, especially in the context of the enzyme expressions we show, should be included in our work.

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this study, the authors aim to understand the neural basis of implicit causal inference, specifically how people infer causes of illness. They use fMRI to explore whether these inferences rely on content-specific semantic networks or broader, domain-general neurocognitive mechanisms. The study explores two key hypotheses: first, that causal inferences about illness rely on semantic networks specific to living things, such as the 'animacy network,' given that illnesses affect only animate beings; and second, that there might be a common brain network supporting causal inferences across various domains, including illness, mental states, and mechanical failures. By examining these hypotheses, the authors aim to determine whether causal inferences are supported by specialized or generalized neural systems.

      The authors observed that inferring illness causes selectively engaged a portion of the precuneus (PC) associated with the semantic representation of animate entities, such as people and animals. They found no cortical areas that responded to causal inferences across different domains, including illness and mechanical failures. Based on these findings, the authors concluded that implicit causal inferences are supported by content-specific semantic networks, rather than a domain-general neural system, indicating that the neural basis of causal inference is closely tied to the semantic representation of the specific content involved.

      Strengths:

      (1) The inclusion of the four conditions in the design is well thought out, allowing for the examination of the unique contribution of causal inference of illness compared to either a different type of causal inference (mechanical) or non-causal conditions. This design also has the potential to identify regions involved in a shared representation of inference across general domains.

      (2) The presence of the three localizers for language, logic, and mentalizing, along with the selection of specific regions of interest (ROIs), such as the precuneus and anterior ventral occipitotemporal cortex (antVOTC), is a strong feature that supports a hypothesis-driven approach (although see below for a critical point related to the ROI selection).

      (3) The univariate analysis pipeline is solid and well-developed.

      (4) The statistical analyses are a particularly strong aspect of the paper.

      Weaknesses:

      Based on the current analyses, it is not yet possible to rule out the hypothesis that inferring illness causes relies on neurocognitive mechanisms that support causal inferences irrespective of their content, neither in the precuneus nor in other parts of the brain.

      (1) The authors, particularly in the multivariate analyses, do not thoroughly examine the similarity between the two conditions (illness-causal and mechanical-causal), as they are more focused on highlighting the differences between them. For instance, in the searchlight MVPA analysis, an interesting decoding analysis is conducted to identify brain regions that represent illness-causal and mechanical-causal conditions differently, yielding results consistent with the univariate analyses. However, to test for the presence of a shared network, the authors only perform the Causal vs. Non-causal analysis. This analysis is not very informative because it includes all conditions mixed together and does not clarify whether both the illness-causal and mechanical-causal conditions contribute to these results.

      (2) To address this limitation, a useful additional step would be to use as ROIs the different regions that emerged in the Causal vs. Non-causal decoding analysis and to conduct four separate decoding analyses within these specific clusters:<br /> (a) Illness-Causal vs. Non-causal - Illness First;<br /> (b) Illness-Causal vs. Non-causal - Mechanical First;<br /> (c) Mechanical-Causal vs. Non-causal - Illness First;<br /> (d) Mechanical-Causal vs. Non-causal - Mechanical First.<br /> This approach would allow the authors to determine whether any of these ROIs can decode both the illness-causal and mechanical-causal conditions against at least one non-causal condition.

      (3) Another possible analysis to investigate the existence of a shared network would be to run the searchlight analysis for the mechanical-causal condition versus the two non-causal conditions, as was done for the illness-causal versus non-causal conditions, and then examine the conjunction between the two. Specifically, the goal would be to identify ROIs that show significant decoding accuracy in both analyses.

      (4) Along the same lines, for the ROI MVPA analysis, it would be useful not only to include the illness-causal vs. mechanical-causal decoding but also to examine the illness-causal vs. non-causal conditions and the mechanical-causal vs. non-causal conditions. Additionally, it would be beneficial to report these data not just in a table (where only the mean accuracy is shown) but also using dot plots, allowing the readers to see not only the mean values but also the accuracy for each individual subject.

      (5) The selection of Regions of Interest (ROIs) is not entirely straightforward:<br /> In the introduction, the authors mention that recent literature identifies the precuneus (PC) as a region that responds preferentially to images and words related to living things across various tasks. While this may be accurate, we can all agree that other regions within the ventral occipital-temporal cortex also exhibit such preferences, particularly areas like the fusiform face area, the occipital face area, and the extrastriate body area. I believe that at least some parts of this network (e.g., the fusiform gyrus) should be included as ROIs in this study. This inclusion would make sense, especially because a complementary portion of the ventral stream known to prefer non-living items (i.e., anterior medial VOTC) has been selected as a control ROI to process information about the mechanical-causal condition. Given the main hypothesis of the study - that causal inferences about illness might depend on content-specific semantic representations in the 'animacy network' - it would be worthwhile to investigate these ROIs alongside the precuneus, as they may also yield interesting results.

      (6) Visual representation of results:<br /> In all the figures related to ROI analyses, only mean group values are reported (e.g., Figure 1A, Figure 3, Figure 4A, Supplementary Figure 6, Figure 7, Figure 8). To better capture the complexity of fMRI data and provide readers with a more comprehensive view of the results, it would be beneficial to include a dot plot for a specific time point in each graph. This could be a fixed time point (e.g., a certain number of seconds after stimulus presentation) or the time point showing the maximum difference between the conditions of interest. Adding this would allow for a clearer understanding of how the effect is distributed across the full sample, such as whether it is consistently present in every subject or if there is greater variability across individuals.

      (7) Task selection:<br /> (a) To improve the clarity of the paper, it would be helpful to explain the rationale behind the choice of the selected task, specifically addressing: (i) why an implicit inference task was chosen instead of an explicit inference task, and (ii) why the "magic detection" task was used, as it might shift participants' attention more towards coherence, surprise, or unexpected elements rather than the inference process itself.<br /> (b) Additionally, the choice to include a large number of catch trials is unusual, especially since they are modeled as regressors of non-interest in the GLM. It would be beneficial to provide an explanation for this decision.

    2. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this study, the authors hypothesize that "causal inferences about illness depend on content-specific semantic representations in the animacy network". They test this hypothesis in an fMRI task, by comparing brain activity elicited by participants' exposure to written situations suggesting a plausible cause of illness with brain activity in linguistically equivalent situations suggesting a plausible cause of mechanical failure or damage and non-causal situations. These contrasts identify PC as the main "culprit" in a whole-brain univariate analysis. Then the question arises of whether the content-specificity has to do with inferences about animates in general, or if there are some distinctions between reasoning about people's bodies versus mental states. To answer this question, the authors localize the mentalizing network and study the relation between brain activity elicited by Illness-Causal > Mech-Causal and Mentalizing > Physical stories. They conclude that inferring about the causes of illness partially differentiates from reasoning about people's states of mind. The authors finally test the alternative yet non-mutually exclusive hypothesis that both types of causal inferences (illness and mechanical) depend on shared neural machinery. Good candidates are language and logic, which justifies the use of a language/logic localizer. No evidence of commonalities across causal inferences versus non-causal situations is found.

      Strengths:

      (1) This study introduces a useful paradigm and well-designed set of stimuli to test for implicit causal inferences.

      (2) Another important methodological advance is the addition of physical stories to the original mentalizing protocol.

      (3) With these tools, or a variant of these tools, this study has the potential to pave the way for further investigation of naïve biology and causal inference.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) This study is missing a big-picture question. It is not clear whether the authors investigate the neural correlates of causal reasoning or of naïve biology. If the former, the choice of an orthogonal task, making causal reasoning implicit, is questionable. If the latter, the choice of mechanical and physical controls can be seen as reductive and problematic.

      (2) The rationale for focusing mostly on the precuneus is not clear and this choice could almost be seen as a post-hoc hypothesis.

      (3) The choice of an orthogonal 'magic detection' task has three problematic consequences in this study:<br /> (a) It differs in nature from the 'mentalizing' task that consists of evaluating a character's beliefs explicitly from the corresponding story, which complicates the study of the relation between both tasks. While the authors do not compare both tasks directly, it is unclear to what extent this intrinsic difference between implicit versus explicit judgments of people's body versus mental states could influence the results.<br /> (b) The extent to which the failure to find shared neural machinery between both types of inferences (illness and mechanical) can be attributed to the implicit character of the task is not clear.<br /> (c) The introduction of a category of non-interest that contains only 36 trials compared to 38 trials for all four categories of interest creates a design imbalance.

      (4) Another imbalance is present in the design of this study: the number of trials per category is not the same in each run of the main task. This imbalance does not seem to be accounted for in the 1st-level GLM and renders a bit problematic the subsequent use of MVPA.

      (5) The main claim of the authors, encapsulated by the title of the present manuscript, is not tested directly. While the authors included in their protocol independent localizers for mentalizing, language, and logic, they did not include an independent localizer for "animacy". As such, they cannot provide a within-subject evaluation of their claim, which is entirely based on the presence of a partial overlap in PC (which is also involved in a wide range of tasks) with previous results on animacy.

    3. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study employed an implicit task, showing vignettes to participants while a bold signal was acquired. The aim was to capture automatic causal inferences that emerge during language processing and comprehension. In particular, the authors compared causal inferences about illness with two control conditions, causal inferences about mechanical failures and non-causal phrases related to illnesses. All phrases that were employed described contexts with people, to avoid animacy/inanimate confound in the results. The authors had a specific hypothesis concerning the role of the precuneus (PC) in being sensitive to causal inferences about illnesses.

      These findings indicate that implicit causal inferences are facilitated by semantic networks specialized for encoding causal knowledge.

      Strengths:

      The major strength of the study is the clever design of the stimuli (which are nicely matched for a number of features) which can tease apart the role of the type of causal inference (illness-causal or mechanical-causal) and the use of two localizers (logic/language and mentalizing) to investigate the hypothesis that the language and/or logical reasoning networks preferentially respond to causal inference regardless of the content domain being tested (illnesses or mechanical).

      Weaknesses:

      I have identified the following main weaknesses:

      (1) Precuneus (PC) and Temporo-Parietal junction (TPJ) show very similar patterns of results, and the manuscript is mostly focused on PC (also the abstract). To what extent does the fact that PC and TPJ show similar trends affect the inferences we can derive from the results of the paper? I wonder whether additional analyses (connectivity?) would help provide information about this network.

      (2) Results are mainly supported by an univariate ROI approach, and the MVPA ROI approach is performed on a subregion of one of the ROI regions (left precuneus). Results could then have a limited impact on our understanding of brain functioning.

      (3) In all figures: there are no measures of dispersion of the data across participants. The reader can only see aggregated (mean) data. E.g., percentage signal changes (PSC) do not report measures of dispersion of the data, nor do we have bold maps showing the overlap of the response across participants. Only in Figure 2, we see the data of 6 selected participants out of 20.

      (4) Sometimes acronyms are defined in the text after they appear for the first time.

    1. Effets comparés de certaines mesures du LS 2025 / PLF 2025, par vingtième de niveau de vie

      je dis surement une grosse bêtise mais visuellement on a l'impression sur ce graphique en euros par ménage que la somme pour le PLF 2025 faisait beaucoup plus que 20% en plus par rapport au PLS 2025, comment l'expliquer ? (dans le résumé vous comptez 5.2 Md€ sur PLS et 6.5 Md€ sur PLF) Par exemple pour les plus pauvres qu'est ce qui explique que l'effet dans la loi spéciale sera plus de 4 fois plus faible, alors que la hausse des taxes sur électricité et gaz est environ 2 fois plus faible en agrégé (2.2 Md€ vs 4.1 Md€)

    1. Author response:

      We thank the reviewers for their careful readings of our paper and their very positive assessment. Here we address the two major concerns they raised, referring to the revised version of the manuscript that will be submitted:

      (1) Important points were raised regarding the brief elongation events we reported. The time resolution and noise in our system reduce the accuracy of the burst velocity measurements. To address this, we have reached out to a colleague who is set up to repeat these measurements with microfluidics-assisted TIRF. The noise should be greatly reduced and the system is also optimal for directly visualizing labeled FHOD3, as suggested. We hope this experimental approach will provide new insights.

      In the meantime, we analyzed our data more closely. We were asked about the pauses we observe before bursts of elongation and how we know they are functionally relevant. The short answer is that we do not know. We reported them because they were so common:  in three independent experiments with wild type FHOD3L-CT we analyzed a total of 20 filaments. We detected 112 dim regions and 97 of these were pause/burst events (~87%). Among the cases lacking a pause we include instances of apparent "double bursts" with no time for capping in between (which may be a time resolution issue) and some cases where the burst was in progress when data collection started. In the latter case, we cannot determine whether or not a pause was missed. We cannot rule out that this pause reflects an interaction with the surface but might expect the frequency to be lower if it were. In fact, we did detect pauses in the profilin-actin negative control but only 4 pauses were detected across 21 filaments analyzed compared to 97 pauses observed in the presence of wild type FHOD3L across 20 filaments analyzed. We will revise the text to make our conclusions about pauses more circumspect.

      For comparison to our current data, we further analyzed the filaments in TIRF assays with no formin present. As the reviewers point out, inhomogeneities in filament intensity are normal. Thus, we examined any dim spots for pauses and/or bursts. We will report (future Figure 2G) that the velocity of growth of these dim spots was the same as the velocity of the rest of the filament. While our numbers may not be perfectly accurate due to the noise in our system, the difference of 3-4 fold increase versus no detectable change in rate is substantial and statistically different. In addition, we determined the number of dim spots per length of filament. We found a higher frequency of dim spots when FHOD3L-CT or FHOD3S-CT was present vs no formin, as will be shown in Figure 2 – figure supplement 1G and 2D.

      We are convinced that the brief dim events we observed in the presence of FHOD3L-CT do, in fact, reflect formin-mediated elongation and hope that the reviewers concur. This does not preclude our interest in the microfluidics and two-color assays, which we will pursue in the future.

      (2) The reviewers were concerned about the low protein levels in the GS-FH1 rescue experiments as reflected in the HA fluorescence intensity distributions shown in Fig. 5 – figure supplement 2A. While the scenario proposed could explain our observations with the GSFH1 rescues, it is quite complex and does not preclude the conclusion that the FH1 domain is critical. One limit of this scenario would be that the protein levels in the GS-FH1 cells reflect completely inactive protein, as opposed to FHOD3L that cannot elongate (by design). Given that the C-terminal half of the protein folds and functions and that the changes are made within an intrinsically disordered region, we do not favor this model. The reviewers suggest that the mutant protein detected in the few cells with (probably residual) sarcomeres could be stabilized, in part or entirely, by heterodimerization with residual endogenous wild type protein. We agree that heterodimerization is possible. The question becomes, how active is a heterodimer? If heterodimers have any activity, it seems far from sufficient to rescue sarcomere formation, suggesting that two functional FH1 domains are critical. To confirm this possibility, we would have to be able to determine whether the few sarcomeres present in these cases are residual and/or the new sarcomeres the low level of heterodimers could make. That said, we do not see evidence of correlation between protein levels and rescue at the level present in these cells (addressed below). Unfortunately, the proposed IP to test whether FHOD3L binds actin in vivo would only potentially report on filament side binding (both direct and indirect). It would not address whether the GS-FH1 mutant functions as a nucleator, elongator, bundler and/or capping protein in vivo.

      If we assume that the protein present is active, the critical question that we can address is whether the phenotype is due to low protein levels or if the phenotype is due to loss of elongation activity by FHOD3L. To address this question, we revisited our data.

      First, we plotted the distributions of the intensities of the cells we analyzed further, in addition to the automated readout of all the cells in the dish we originally presented (e.g. Fig. 4 – figure supplement 2A,B). These cells were selected randomly and, as should be the case, the distributions of their intensities agree well with the original distributions for the three different rescue constructs: FHOD3L, K1193L, and GS-FH1 (Fig. 6 – figure supplement 1A,B). We then asked whether there was any correlation between HA intensities with the sarcomere metrics. Consistent with in our pilot data, no correlation is evident in any of the three cases across the range of intensities we collected (400 – 2700 a.u.) (Fig. 6 – figure supplement 1C,D,E). We were originally satisfied with the GS-FH1 data, despite the low average intensity levels, because the intensities were well within the range that we established in pilot studies. These data reconfirm that the intensity levels are reasonable in a larger study.

      To more specifically address the question of whether low HA fluorescence intensity is likely to reflect sufficient protein levels to build sarcomeres, we re-examined two data sets from the FHOD3L WT rescue data. We found that, by chance, the first replicate of data from the wild type rescue has a comparable intensity distribution to that of the GSFH1 rescues (580 +/- 261 / cell vs. 548 +/- 105 / cell). In addition, we collected all of the data from cells with intensity levels <720, selected to mimic the distribution of the GS-FH1 cells (Fig. 6 – figure supplement 3A). We then compared the sarcomere metrics (sarcomere number, sarcomere length, sarcomere width) between the full data set and the two low intensity subsets using statistical tests as reported for the rest of the cell biology data set:

      · Sarcomere number is the only non-normal metric. We therefore used the Mann Whitney U test for each pairwise comparison, which shows no difference between all 3 WT distributions.

      · We compared Z-line lengths by Student’s two-sample, unpaired t-test for each pairwise comparison, again finding no significant difference for all distributions.

      · Sarcomere length shows a weakly significant difference (p=0.017 (compared to 0.033 for 3 treatment groups based on Bonferroni correction)) between the whole WT data set and bio rep 1, but no difference between the whole WT data set and the HA<720 group via Student’s two-sample, unpaired t-test.

      An alternate statistical analysis approach, one-way ANOVA and Tukey post hoc tests, gave similar results. Thus, cells expressing wild type FHOD3L at levels comparable to levels detected in GS-FH1 mutant rescues, are fully rescued. Based on these findings we conclude that the expression levels in the GS-FH1 are high enough to rescue the FHOD3 knock down, supporting our conclusion that the defect is due to loss of elongation activity. We will add this analysis and discussion to the revised manuscript.

      In future studies we will design less severe mutations to the FH1 domain. We hope to identify one with a strong effect on elongation and another with an intermediate effect. Once the best candidates are characterized in vitro, we will test them in our rescue experiments. If the strong mutant mimics the GS-FH1 rescue and the intermediate mutant is less severe, we will have strengthened our conclusion that elongation is a critical FHOD3L activity in sarcomere formation.

      Additional improvements will be made to the manuscript based on recommendations we received from the reviewers.

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors seek to establish whether triadic interaction can promote affiliative relationships in the context of strict dominance hierarchies, and whether the vasopressinergic system is involved in such affiliations. To address this, they experimentally examine how male same-sex affiliations form by testing triadic cohabitation in large-billed crows, a species where males are known to develop and maintain same-sex affiliative relationships within a strict linear social hierarchy. They show a reduction in aggressive behavior over time with cohabitation and the formation of affiliative relationships, as measured by reciprocal allopreening, between two members (dyad) of the triad. The authors then administer a V1aR antagonist to each member of the triad, finding that allopreening decreases and dominance/submissive behaviors reemerge only in the dyad that developed an affiliated relationship ("affiliated dyad") with blockade of V1aR, demonstrating that V1aR mediates maintenance of affiliative peer relationships. The questions of how peer affiliations form, particularly in the context of dominance hierarchies, and the role of V1aR in regulating these behaviors are impactful for the field of social behavior. While the experimental paradigm provides a new way of approaching these questions, we have outlined below our concerns regarding the collection and interpretation of the data that limit the impact of this particular study.

      Strengths:

      (1) The authors develop a behavioral paradigm and experimental sequence using large-billed crows that allows them to identify the formation of stable, affiliated dyads within triadic groups that are robust to subsequent testing and are sensitive to pharmacological manipulation.

      (2) The effects of V1aR antagonism on allopreening and respective dominance or submissive behaviors appear significant and specific to the affiliated dyad, which supports the view that V1aR plays a role in context-dependent, flexible regulation of aggressive behaviors across species. However, these results are difficult to interpret with respect to the authors' main claims given the weaknesses outlined below.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The authors claim that the data demonstrates that a triadic social group facilitates the formation of affiliative dyads and go further to claim that these relationships have relevance to understanding coalition formation. It is difficult to say whether the triadic structure actually facilitates or promotes the formation of these affiliative interactions as stated without direct comparisons to alternately sized groupings. Further, the relevance to coalitions is weak without expanded behavioral testing.

      (2) Aspects of the experimental design introduce confounding factors that make it difficult to interpret the resulting data. In experiment 1, 6 of the 18 animals that are used for testing are part of multiple triads. This is not accounted for in either the experimental design (wash-out period prior to reuse of animals) or statistical analysis (including repeated testing as a factor in the model) or is not described. Further, while the authors do randomize and counterbalance the two dose trials for the antagonist, vehicle vs drug exposure is not randomized.

      (3) The re-emergence of dominance-related agonistic behaviors with V1aR antagonism specifically in the affiliated dyads is interesting, but difficult to interpret without further description and analysis of the dyadic behavior, particularly given the absence of dominance-related behaviors in either affiliated or unaffiliated dyads during the cohabitation period. In addition, the current data does not support the hypothesis that V1aR is also required to form affiliative relationships, as stated in the discussion (Lines 464-5, 472, 494), since the authors did not administer V1aR antagonist during the initial period of triadic cohabitation.

      (4) Sentences are often repetitive or duplicated (lines 424-426), and paragraphs should be condensed for easier reading, especially in the discussion. Further, some of the discussion might be better presented in an "Ideas and Speculation" subsection, which would help readers appropriately assess the validity of the conclusions based on the data vs the larger implications suggested by the authors.

    2. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Seguchi and Izawa provide robust evidence for the role of vasopressin in modulating same-sex affiliative relationships. Especially striking is that these effects appear to be selective to key relationships within a triadic social context. Overall, this is an interesting and rich dataset with compelling results. I largely have some clarifying questions.

      Experiment 1 Comments:

      (1) The primary argument/finding in this experiment is that a triadic situation/environment facilitates the development of male-male reciprocal social relationships. Overall, this effect appears striking in that male-male affiliative bonds (defined as reciprocal allopreening) formed in 6 of the 8 triads tested. However, there is no comparison group of dyads to determine whether co-housing for 2 weeks could also support the formation of male-male social bonds. This lack of a comparison group makes it unclear to what extent the triad is the key aspect of the environment that supports social bonding.

      (2) More specifically, the authors argue that it is not just that triads support affiliative male-male bonds, but that bonds form between the second "middle" (dominant/subordinate) and third "low" (subordinate/subordinate) individuals in each triad. However, it was difficult to assess this from the results.<br /> a) For example, in Figure 3B is each data point the average of two individuals, since in each triad there are two dominant and two subordinate individuals?<br /> b) For me, using more precise language beyond dominant and subordinate (e.g. middle and low), and more clearly displaying the results of allopreening for each pairwise dyad within a triad would improve the impact of the results and support the authors' argument.

      (3) Experiment 2 Comments:<br /> The results here are quite striking, despite the low sample size. In Figure 4, it appears that in every instance of administration V1aRA low and high administration decreased allopreening for both dominant and subordinate individuals.

      (4) Some methodological questions:<br /> a) Can you clarify whether the duration of the post-test was also 30 min?<br /> b) As in Experiment 1, how are individual birds represented in the triad? Was the second "Middle" bird (dominant/subordinate) tested as both a dominant and subordinate bird? My understanding is that the dominant and subordinate birds in Figure 4 are different individuals but that they are the same individuals represented between the affiliated dyad and unaffiliated dyad.

      (5) Throughout the manuscript (Lines 57-67; 557-566) the authors argue that the role of VP in regulating gregariousness can be extrapolated to understand the role of same-sex affiliative bonding. Importantly, gregariousness does not necessarily reflect affiliative bonding. While allopreening is specifically associated with social bonding (e.g. monogamous pair bonds) independent of broader social systems, gregariousness in general, and specifically as defined in many of the references cited, is independent of social bonds - in fact, it is assessed primarily in novel social contexts.

      (6) To clarify, adult prairie voles in the wild do not engage in same-sex affiliative behavior commonly. In fact one of the primary components of opposite-sex pair bonding is same-sex aggression. Thus, while mechanistic studies on the neurobiology of same-sex peer bonds are relevant for this work, I am less convinced that you can make comparisons between the ultimate function of same-sex affiliative relationships in prairie voles.

      (17) The results here are consistent with VP having an anxiolytic effect, as has been suggested in birds, with the consequences on social behaviors being directly or indirectly related. This may be a useful point to draw on in the discussion when considering your findings.

    1. ELEMENTARY TYPING <br /> via Periscope Film #15494

      Elementary Typing. 16 mm, Instructional film. Periscope Film, #15494, 1971. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cdyoPu_ASw.<br /> running time: 00:12:06

      Produced by Moreland-Latchford Productions, Ltd this informational film from 1971 titled “Elementary Typing” teaches the basics of becoming a good typist. The film features a manual Typemaster, a trade name used by Underwood as far back as the 1930s. This version of the machine featured both red and black ribbons. An electric version is seen at 9:00.

      The film is broken down into different sections that focus on different elements of typing from the rhythmic beat of typing to optimal hand positioning as well as how to set up a typewriter. “Elementary Typing” is part of a larger film series related to the art of typing with other titles including “Posture and the Keyboard,” “First Step Typing,” “Machine Techniques,” and “Remedial Typing.” Advisors for the creation of the film include James Treliving Commercial Coordinator North York Board of Education, J.T. Albani East York Board of Education, Sheila Wright Etobicoke Board of Education, and Ronald Thelander Director of Audio-Visual Aids Metropolitan Separate School Board, Toronto. In addition, the film was directed by Rod Maxwell and written by Robert Browning and featured Alex Veltman as the cameraman, Carl Connell as editor, Joe Hayward as production head, and James McCormick as executive producer.

      Pink illustrated typewriter on navy blue background (0:09). Outline of topics covered (0:17). A: early rhythm and reading – metronome and hands typing in the background (0:22). Aerial view of hands typing on an 197X Underwood Typemaster model typewriter (0:42). Camera pans words typed on a page (1:27). Close-up of letters being printed onto a page (1:36). Woman sitting at desk typing quickly (2:24). B: Paper Insertion – close-up of typewriter and hand setting the paper guide at the correct place on the paper table (2:35). Explanation of correct form and technique for holding and inserting paper (2:58-4:23). Explanation of paper removal (4:26). Badminton player returning various shots (4:41). Close-up of hands on the typewriter emphasizing the art of positioning (5:07). C: The Shift – explanation of the shift key (5:15-6:30). D: The Carriage Return – close-up of the device (6:32). The woman types and uses the carriage return (6:46-9:00). The Electric Typewriter – comparison between 197X Underwood Type Master manual model and Underwood 765 Type Master electric model typewriter (9:04). Difference between typing strategies (10:03). Benefits of using an electric machine (10:20). Closing credits (11:35).

    1. Note: This response was posted by the corresponding author to Review Commons. The content has not been altered except for formatting.

      Learn more at Review Commons


      Reply to the reviewers

      We thank reviewers for their comments and constructive criticisms of our study. We have implemented corrections* that were suggested for the manuscript, and we have also clarified any concerns that were raised in our responses below. *

      *Reviewer #1 *

      Overall technology development is good though as they claim that they are first is not true as it has been used earlier by https://doi.org/10.1128/msphere.00160-22. Hence may be that they have used to decipher the cell cycle.

      The cited paper used FUCCI in the host cells and not in the parasites themselves. Our study thus reports the first FUCCI model in a unicellular *eukaryote. *

      • *

      The manuscript is extremely dense and at times very difficult to read and to be clear if they are focussing on the technology or cell cycle. The technology may be a better part of manuscript but the dissection of cell cycle is not very novel and at times very confusing to follow. Many of these aspects has been dissected out previously from their own group and many group in Toxoplasma and Plasmodium and it is quite known about that the cell cycle in Apicomplexa is very complex.

      We adapted FUCCI to the Toxoplasma model to help dissect the organization of its cell cycle, which as the reviewer noted, is highly complex. While overlaps between some phases were anticipated based on prior data, these overlaps had not been measured. We were able to determine the extent of these overlaps in the post-G1 period and describe the organization of the non-conventional cell cycle of T. gondii.

      Another aspect that most FUCCI use Geminin and CDT1 factors and since Geminin is not present it would have been better to validate that with CDT1 that is present in Apicomplexa and may be more relevant than PCNA1.

      Unfortunately, the Toxoplasma ortholog of CDT1 (TgiRD1) cannot be used as a FUCCI marker for the reasons stated in lines 116-117; the expression of TgiRD1 is not limited to a specific cell cycle phase (Hawkins et al., 2024). PCNA1 can be (and has been) used as a FUCCI marker, but it was not considered an ideal marker in mammalian cells due to its relatively low expression levels. However, Toxoplasma PCNA1 is highly abundant in tachyzoites, and its expression correlates with the period of DNA replication. Furthermore, Plasmodium ortholog of PCNA1 had been used as a DNA replication sensor in the recent studies (35353560). *Altogether, it validates PCNA1 as an appropriate S-phase FUCCI probe. *

      The first part of the manuscript only deals with first to identify the function and localisation of PCNA1 and then develop FUCCI technology and then go on to study cell cycle. So the focus of the manuscript is not clear. It seems three different results are just assembled together in one manuscript with out clear focus. In order to get clear focus the authors should clear set out the focus as to why they developed FUCCCI and how they decipher either replication, budding, apical or basal complex, centrosome or cytokinesis as well to be used for drug discovery The way it is organised it is not flowing well and confuses the reader who may not be aware of different compartment of Toxoplasma cell or not a molecular parasitologist.

      We believe the reviewer has described the logic of our study. Our goal was to dissect the cell cycle. Consequently, we adapted a suitable technology, FUCCI. We described the relevant experiments that allowed us to produce a new molecular tool for an apicomplexan model, and illustrated how we used this tool to better understand the complicated processes of its cell division. Therefore, we organized our study accordingly and included our goal, plans, results, and conclusions that support the success of adopted technology and establishment of the cell cycle organization. We hope this brief explanation can provide some clarification for the reviewer.

      Some of the conclusion on the that Replication starts at centromere region is not novel and has been studied previously.

      We agree that the centromeric start of DNA replication is not a novel feature, which is stated in the text. This result was shown to demonstrate that Toxoplasma replicates its DNA according to the rules* conserved across eukaryotes. *

      The manuscript needs revising by writing precisely eliminating too much literature reference in the result section with clear focus. Some of these references can be elaborated in the introduction and discussion to keep the focus.

      We examined the results section, and as much as we wanted to comply with this reviewer, we found no references that could be eliminated or transferred to the introduction. We believe that to aid the reader, some foundational knowledge needs to be presented together with obtained results to support those findings.

      • *

      Some points with respect to figures: Generally with image panels, arrows don't stand out well

      We* have adjusted the images.

      *

      Fig1: no scale bars and the green arrow do not stand out. So may be to make white.

      *The scale bar can be found in the bottom right image, which applies to every image in the panel. We changed the color of the arrows. *

      Fig 2E: state the time point in the fig without IAA treatment (-IAA)

      The requested information was added to the figure legend.

      Fig4: no bell shaped curve

      We rephrased the description. The” bell-shape” analogy applies to the temporal dynamics of DNA replication, which starts with a single aggregate, expands to numerous replication foci, and is reduced to a few aggregates at the end of replication. We attempted to quantify aggregates, but their irregular shape makes this task impossible. Our statement is supported by steady-state images and real-time microscopy of the DNA replication included in the manuscript.

      Fig 5D: it isn't obvious what the numbers on the right hand side of the graph mean. If it is size, there should be a unit given

      We provided an explanation in the figure legend*.

      *

      Figure 6 - how do they determine that the tachyzoites have progressed through 61% of S phase? Make this clearer here.

      *We examined only DNA replicating parasites (S-phase) and determined the fraction of BCC0-positive (39%) and BCC0-negative (61%) tachyzoites. Quantifications can be found in Table S4, in the S-C worksheet. *

      • *

      Fig7: it a strange way of ordering the figure as FigE is after Fig F hence no logical order. Thank you, we have corrected the order of these panels*. *

      Fig 8H is not mentioned in the text

      *Thank you, we referenced the wrong panel. Fig. 8H is now included in the text. *

      Figure 9 is nice and useful but the arrows could be made proportional of time spent in each cell cycle phase. They're a little off in the conventional cell cycle at the minute

      • *These schematics are intended to illustrate the dramatic difference in cell cycle organization rather than to directly describe cell cycle organization, the latter of which can be found in Figure 6.

      Some comment on the text in the manuscript: Line 137: describing the expression pattern: the following papers first described the expression pattern of PCNA1 and 2 can be cited in the result. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.molbiopara.2005.03.020 We added the reference.

      Line 154: Provide schematic for AID HA cloning and confirmation.

      The schematics and PCR confirmations* can be found in the supplemental figure S2.

      *

      Line 157: Fig 2 after 4 h treatment FACS analysis shows more than 1 and less than 2n genomic content. Does this study have any -IAA treated control for 4h and 7h to compare as what should the standard genomic content to be there at this time point of development. At 4 h of development can the authors provide any statistical analysis with their 3 experiments to prove their point that the replication is actually stalled. Downregulation of TgPCNA1 as shown is western blot is still basal protein left to carry the genomic replication in 7 mins. Can authors also state that TgPCNA 2 which is although non-essential but has no redundant role in the replication machinery.

      The -IAA control is indicated as 0h and is shown in blue. The statistical analysis of three independent experiments showing the increase of the S-phase population is included in Table S3. The Fig. 2 WB shows over 99% TgPCNA1 degradation, and the residual >1% would be insufficient to carry out full DNA replication. This residual signal is likely due to PCNA1 remaining in complex, which would resist *proteolysis. Unfortunately, we do not feel comfortable to make the final statement suggested. We believe that the lack of TgPCNA2 complementation with yeast PCNA1 (Guerini et al, 2005) is insufficient to draw the conclusion that TgPCNA2 plays a non-redundant role in Toxoplasma replication machinery. *

      Line 178 : typing error "that that

      Thank you, this has been corrected*.

      *

      Line 179: states the role of TgPCNA 1 in DNA1 replication, however line 159 and 160 states the TgPCNA1 deficient can fulfil DNA replication. Can author confirm this contrast in the results. Results trying to illustrate the same fact TgFUCCIs or TgPCNA1ng that TgPCNA1 first aggregates at centromeres and then distributed on many replication forks and disappears late during cytokinesis. The part of the result can be merged.

      We apologize for the *confusion. We rephrased our statements and supported them by corresponding references. Although it may seem repetitive, but it was our intention to emphasize a consistent spatial-temporal expression of TgPCNA1-HA and TgPCNA1-NG. *

      Line 189: Typing error, should say "such as nucleus", currently as is missing

      Thank you, this has *been corrected.

      *

      Line 346-349: basically explaining the same thing twice.

      We apologize for the confusion, the first sentence describes compartments where MORN1 is located. The second sentence describes how MORN1 localization changes during cell cycle progression, information which is used later in our quantitative IFA of cell cycle phases*. *

      • *

      Line 347 - immunfluorescent should be immunofluorescence

      Thank you, this has been corrected*.

      *

      Line 395-399: does this study has any non-inhibited (-IAA control) at 4h and 7 h. for fig 7C & 7G. Can the authors provide any statistical analysis for the significance with their 3 experiments.

      The untreated control (7h mock) is shown as 0h treatment (first bar in each panel). The figure also shows the results of the statistical analysis (t-test, numbers above) that can also be found in Table* S7.

      *

      Line 415: Why the authors have not used the TgFUUCI sc lines which expresses the TgPCNAng and IMCmch both. This could have helped to understand the real time dynamics of DNA replication and budding initiation (cytokenesis), rather then fixing and staining with TgIMC.

      *The recent study by Gubbels lab identified the earliest known budding marker BCC0. Unfortunately, BCC0 is a low abundant factor and cannot be used in FUCCI. IMC3 emerges in the midst of budding when the daughter conoid and polar rings are assembled and thus does not signify either the beginning or the end of cytokinesis. We added IMC3 as a supporting budding marker, while our primary focus remains on the DNA replication marker PCNA1. *

      Overall good technology development as FUCCI but the rest of the manuscript is extremely dense and the focus of the study is not clear after technology part. The complexity of the cell cycle is known and hence not much novelty here and extremely descriptive and hard read. Science can be simplified.

      The reviewer agrees the apicomplexan cell cycle is highly complex, and the field has worked diligently to piece together what we can about it, which contributes to the density of the manuscript. We hope that the targeted audience will find it thoughtful, and we strove to provide sufficient information for those outside our field. We also respectfully disagree that our study offers little novelty; while it is known how complex the apicomplexan cell cycle is, there is still much to uncover. While overlapping cell cycle phases exist in other eukaryotes, there were no such studies that showed the degree of these overlaps across the entire T. gondii cell cycle. We believe there are valuable insights to be gained from the identification of the composite cell cycle phase, which in turn could help draw attention to other understudied features of the cell cycle in non-conventional eukaryotes*. *

      *Reviewer #2 *

      1. It is not always clear where apical and basal ends of the parasite are. E.g. in Fig 3F are the two parasites on the right facing down with their apical end? In Fig 4 it is even harder to see. Might be helpful to turn these images with their apical end up to make comparative interpretation of figures easier. In the text it mentions that PCNA1 concludes at the 'proximal' end of the nucleus (or with the nucleus proximal, which is not clear either??). Please define clearly where the proximal site is, as it is not clear in the figures or in the movie (the 'last focus' marker in Fig 4D??). Thank you for the suggestion. We rotated images in Fig. 3 and marked the parasite ends in Fig. 4. We also indicated parasites’ polarity in the movies.

      Synchrony of replication cycle. Tight synchronization depends on the retention of the cytoplasmic bridge, as mentioned by the authors. In larger vacuoles, it is very conceivable not all parasites are connected with each other (notably in large cysts with bradyzoites), which could lead to loss of tight synchrony. The results section states "One plausible explanation is that the rosette split shortens the communication path between tachyzoites". This is somewhat cryptic language: does a 'rosette split' imply the rupture of the cytoplasmic bridge? This statement should be clarified. Another factor could be centrosome maturation, with the mother centrosome ready sooner than the daughter, which is a model proposed in schizogony, where the nuclear cycles in a shared cytoplasm are even more asynchronous/independent.

      Yes, by ‘rosette split’, we refer to the break of the connection, or a cytoplasmic bridge. The model based on centrosome maturation is interesting, however, it does not explain the synchronization of a vacuole of 16, unless centrosome age resets at that point*. *

      Centrosome duplication. This has been documented to occur at the basal side of the nucleus (the whole nucleus rotates for centrosome duplication). The images as depicted in Fig 6 do not seem to indicate this event, possibly because it is not easy to track apical and basal end of the cell (#1 above). Please comment, as this could be an additional spatial cue to the specific stage of the cycle.

      This is a very interesting suggestion, thank you. Indeed, the centrosome often duplicates away from the apical end (disconnects from the Golgi), sometimes on the side or the basal end, but quickly rotates back to the apical position to reconnect with co-segregating organelles. Centrosome traveling is an interesting feature, and it is possible that this reorientation back to the apical end signifies budding initiation. We will explore this hypothesis in future studies.

      • Specific experimental issues that are easily addressable.

      • The term "Apicomplexan" should be spelled with a lower case "apicomplexan", which is not consistently applied throughout the manuscript. Thank you, we have corrected the spelling*. *

      * 2. Line 567 the term used in 2008 was "tightly knit" not "closely woven". We wanted to avoid the exact citation and rephrased the title of the review.

      *

      *Reviewer #3 *

      -The authors choose to describe PCNA1 and IMC3 as FUCCI markers. The efficiency of this system in mammalian cells is based on the proof that the markers are regulated through a rapid proteolysis process. However, the data available for these markers point toward a transcriptional regulation of these markers (Toxodb and (1)). In contrast, the authors do not provide any data indicating that these proteins are true FUCCI markers. Consequently, they should not use the term FUCCI throughout the paper unless they prove that the cell cycle expression depends on proteolysis. For example, the authors could express these genes with a promoter that is not cell cycle regulated.

      PCNA1 was one of the original FUCCI markers for mammalian cells, later replaced by the more abundant geminin. PCNA1 ubiquitination is well supported across all eukaryotes, and we believe there is much data to support this same turnover mechanism acts to regulate PCNA1 in Toxoplasma. Transcriptional profiles show that TgPCNA1 mRNA is constantly present in cells, never dropping below 80%, making this mRNA is among the most abundant in the cell. It also indicates that proteolysis, rather than halted transcription, controls TgPCNA1 protein levels, since TgPCNA1 protein expression drops to nearly undetectable levels in early G1 and budding (Fig. 1). In addition, TgPCNA1 is highly conserved in structure (Fig. S1) and in function (TgPCNA1 interactome, Fig. 1). The TgPCNA1 Ub sites were detected in global ubiquitome analyses (ToxoDB), supporting the fact that TgPCNA1 protein abundance is regulated by ubiquitin-dependent degradation. Furthermore, PCNA1 as a FUCCI marker in model eukaryotes was not tested for proteolysis because it was unquestionable that PCNA1 is regulated by proteolysis. In addition, Plasmodium ortholog of PCNA1 had been used as a DNA replication sensor in the recent studies (35353560), which validates PCNA1 as an appropriate S-phase FUCCI probe. The modern FUCCI probes are fragments of CDT1 and Geminin mimicking the spatiotemporal expression of the corresponding cell cycle regulators. The transcriptional profile of TgIMC3 is also largely unchanged across the cell cycle, which heavily implies that proteolysis control*s its dynamic protein expression. Therefore, we believe that the term FUCCI applies to TgPCNA1 and TgIMC3. *

      -The authors show that the localization of PCNA1 change during the cell cycle and indicate that the PCNA1 aggregates observed are replication forks. They do not provide data supporting this. They should co-localize these aggregates with other markers such as ORC, MCM proteins or DNA polymerase to better characterize these aggregates. There are number of techniques that could be used to localize the origin(s) of replication. Similarly, ExM should be used to characterize the colocalization between PCNA1 aggregates and the centromeres. As such, the images provided are of poor quality and do not support the author conclusions. The few PCNA1 aggregates toward the end of the S phase are also not characterized. Are they telomeres?

      Although this is an important point, such detailed analyses of the DNA replication machinery is out of the scope of the current study and will be examined in a follow-up study. Data that suggest the aggregates correspond to replication forks include proteomics analyses of chromatin-bound PCNA1 that identified replisome components such as the MCM, high conservation of TgPCNA1 sequence and structure (Fig. S1), and its conserved interactions (Fig. 1). Recent studies used Plasmodium ortholog of PCNA1 to trace DNA replication dynamics during schizogony (35353560), *Therefore, we doubt that TgPCNA1 would perform functions outside of its role as a DNA replication factor, which has been extensively studied in other eukaryotes. *

      • The authors characterized the proteins associated with PCNA1. All the proteins found to potentially interact are chromatin-bound and are not naturally found in other localization (2). It is unclear why the authors insist on the fact that there are two PCNA1 complexes (one chromatin-bound and one non-chromatin bound). More concerning is the lack of verification of this dataset through reciprocal IP for example.

      The PCNA IP was used to confirm its conserved function as a DNA replication factor; similarly to what was observed in other eukaryotes, we detected PCNA in both a chromatin-bound and unbound state. PCNA1 is produced in late G1 (diffuse nuclear stain) but is engaged in the replisome only upon DNA replication initiation (aggregated form). Rather than characterize the function of the highly conserved PCNA1, our primary goal was to determine the Toxoplasma cell cycle organization, which explains our choice of the experimental design.

      • Quantification of some of the phenotypes is lacking. For example, the DNA content analysis are shown but the change in number are not. Similarly, there is no quantification of the PCNA1 mutant phenotypes observed by ExM. Quantification of the bell shape observed by video-microscopy in figure 4 should also be provided.

      The quantifications supporting the main claims of our study are included in the five supplemental Tables S3-S8, including DNA content and microscopy analysis of the phenotype. *The U-ExM microscopy has been solely used to visualize details of the phenotype. *

      • The PCNA1 mutant phenotypes are not sufficiently explored by ExM. What happen to the mitotic spindle? What happens to kinetochore (CenH3 is a centromere protein and does not represent kinetochores)? Many markers for these structures have been described, see (3).

      The primary goal of our study was to examine and map out the organization of the tachyzoite cell cycle. PCNA1 deficiency was used to demonstrate that Toxoplasma PCNA1 is a conserv*ed DNA replication factor and can be used as an S-phase marker in FUCCI. Thus, we focused on the mutant-induced changes in the dynamics of DNA replication (DNA content) and arrest prior to mitosis (unresolved centrocone). *

      • TgPCNA1NG strain has a number of concerns. The localization to the daughter cells conoids seems artificial since not observed in the HA-AID mutant and the expression pattern seems different as well than the previous mutant suggesting the mNG tag is affecting the localization and expression dynamics. Did the authors explore other fluorescent proteins to verify that these discrepancies where not due to this tag ?

      The conoidal PCNA1 accumulation was detected only with NeonGreen-tagged PCNA1. We also built and examined tdTomato- and mCherry-tagged versions and detected minor accumulations in the conoid of tdTomato-tagged PCNA1, but not with the mCherry-tagged variant. We believe these aggregations could be attributed to the partially degraded PCNA1-NeonGreen having an affinity to conoidal proteins, thus producing this unexpected signal. Although not included in the manuscript, our quantifications, based on both PCNA1-HA and PCNA1-NeonGreen, showed similar cell cycle organization (G1, S and budding phases) of tachyzoites. The FUCCI probe is an indicator of the cell cycle phase. It does not have to be a functional protein. As we mentioned before, many FUCCI probes are fragments of the factors that mimic the spatiotemporal expression of the corresponding cell cycle regulators.

      -Cytokinesis seems to be only defined by the presence of IMC3. The marker appears early during the budding process and it is not normally considered as a cytokinesis marker. The author should the text to reflect this.

      We agree with the reviewer that IMC3 is not a true budding marker, which is why we used BCC0 in our quantifications. IMC3 is proven to broadly define the mid-budding stage, making it a convenient supplemental marker. We are currently exploring and testing alternative and additional FUCCI markers. It is not an easy task, since these markers are required to have high expression levels and to be localized into large organelles. For instance, BCC0 was eliminated due to low abundance.

      • Throughout the manuscript, the authors seems to ignore an essential characteristic of the tachyzoite cell cycle: the nuclear cycle and the budding cycle are independently regulated. It is therefore normal they overlap as it has been shown by the authors themselves in previous studies. This should be better described and discussed in the paper to understand the peculiarities of the parasite cell cycle.

      We apologize for the confusion, but the tachyzoite cell cycle does not contain a nuclear cycle, it consists of a single budding cycle. The nuclear cycle is only a feature in multinuclear cell cycles such as schizogony and endopolygeny. This is the main reason why the overlap between phases is so surprising.

      • l196: "The surface of the growing buds": could the authors rephrase?

      We rephrased the statement.

      -L217: proximal end of the nucleus rather than "parasite ".

      *We clarified the statement. It is, in fact, the shift of the nucleus to the proximal end of the parasite.

      *

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      Referee #3

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      This is a manuscript from Batra et al. entitled "A FUCCI sensor reveals complex cell cycle organization of Toxoplasma endodyogeny ". It describes the characterization of PCNA1 as cell cycle marker in the parasite Toxoplasma gondii. Tachyzoite endodyogeny is a simplified division process that is crucial for the proliferation of the parasite. Some studies have used fluorescent markers to describe the segregation of organelles and the nuclear division during endodyogeny but the production of more tools to dissect the cell cycle and better characterize mutants is timely. Most of the experiments are based on characterization of PCNA1 mutant and the use of a strain expressing a PCNA1-mNG construct. Unfortunately, there are a number of concerns in this study that need to be addressed.

      Major concerns:

      • The authors choose to describe PCNA1 and IMC3 as FUCCI markers. The efficiency of this system in mammalian cells is based on the proof that the markers are regulated through a rapid proteolysis process. However, the data available for these markers point toward a transcriptional regulation of these markers (Toxodb and (1)). In contrast, the authors do not provide any data indicating that these proteins are true FUCCI markers. Consequently, they should not use the term FUCCI throughout the paper unless they prove that the cell cycle expression depends on proteolysis. For example, the authors could express these genes with a promoter that is not cell cycle regulated.
      • The authors show that the localization of PCNA1 change during the cell cycle and indicate that the PCNA1 aggregates observed are replication forks. They do not provide data supporting this. They should co-localize these aggregates with other markers such as ORC, MCM proteins or DNA polymerase to better characterize these aggregates. There are number of techniques that could be used to localize the origin(s) of replication. Similarly, ExM should be used to characterize the colocalization between PCNA1 aggregates and the centromeres. As such, the images provided are of poor quality and do not support the author conclusions. The few PCNA1 aggregates toward the end of the S phase are also not characterized. Are they telomeres?
      • The authors characterized the proteins associated with PCNA1. All the proteins found to potentially interact are chromatin-bound and are not naturally found in other localization (2). It is unclear why the authors insist on the fact that there are two PCNA1 complexes (one chromatin-bound and one non-chromatin bound). More concerning is the lack of verification of this dataset through reciprocal IP for example.
      • Quantification of some of the phenotypes is lacking. For example, the DNA content analysis are shown but the change in number are not. Similarly, there is no quantification of the PCNA1 mutant phenotypes observed by ExM. Quantification of the bell shape observed by video-microscopy in figure 4 should also be provided.
      • The PCNA1 mutant phenotypes are not sufficiently explored by ExM. What happen to the mitotic spindle? What happens to kinetochore (CenH3 is a centromere protein and does not represent kinetochores)? Many markers for these structures have been described, see (3).
      • TgPCNA1NG strain has a number of concerns. The localization to the daughter cells conoids seems artificial since not observed in the HA-AID mutant and the expression pattern seems different as well than the previous mutant suggesting the mNG tag is affecting the localization and expression dynamics. Did the authors explore other fluorescent proteins to verify that these discrepancies where not due to this tag ? -Cytokinesis seems to be only defined by the presence of IMC3. The marker appears early during the budding process and it is not normally considered as a cytokinesis marker. The author should the text to reflect this.
      • Throughout the manuscript, the authors seems to ignore an essential characteristic of the tachyzoite cell cycle: the nuclear cycle and the budding cycle are independently regulated. It is therefore normal they overlap as it has been shown by the authors themselves in previous studies. This should be better described and discussed in the paper to understand the peculiarities of the parasite cell cycle.

      Minor

      • l196: "The surface of the growing buds": could the authors rephrase?
      • L217: proximal end of the nucleus rather than "parasite ".

      • Behnke,M.S., Wootton,J.C., Lehmann,M.M., Radke,J.B., Lucas,O., Nawas,J., Sibley,L.D. and White,M.W. (2010) Coordinated progression through two subtranscriptomes underlies the tachyzoite cycle of Toxoplasma gondii. PloS One, 5, e12354.

      • Barylyuk,K., Koreny,L., Ke,H., Butterworth,S., Crook,O.M., Lassadi,I., Gupta,V., Tromer,E., Mourier,T., Stevens,T.J., et al. (2020) A Comprehensive Subcellular Atlas of the Toxoplasma Proteome via hyperLOPIT Provides Spatial Context for Protein Functions. Cell Host Microbe, 28, 752-766.e9.
      • L,B., N,D.S.P., Ec,T., D,S.-F. and M,B. (2022) Composition and organization of kinetochores show plasticity in apicomplexan chromosome segregation. J. Cell Biol., 221.

      Significance

      This study provides the characterization of a new cell cycle marker to decipher the tachyzoite cell cycle of the apicomplexan parasite Toxoplasma gondii. A better understanding of the cell cycle is needed to prevent the proliferation of this parasite. This study builds on previous works characterizing organellar segregation in T. gondii. It provides data about the overlap of each cell cycle phase and the synchronicity of the cell cycle in a single vacuole. However, it is limited by the use of a single marker and more data are needed to support the conclusions of this study. This study can be of interest to a broad audience.

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      Referee #2

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      • Are the key conclusions convincing?

      The data support the new model put forward in the final figure: a composite cell cycle phase

      There are couple of points that need attention:

      1. It is not always clear where apical and basal ends of the parasite are. E.g. in Fig 3F are the two parasites on the right facing down with their apical end? In Fig 4 it is even harder to see. Might be helpful to turn these images with their apical end up to make comparative interpretation of figures easier. In the text it mentions that PCNA1 concludes at the 'proximal' end of the nucleus (or with the nucleus proximal, which is not clear either??). Please define clearly where the proximal site is, as it is not clear in the figures or in the movie (the 'last focus' marker in Fig 4D??).
      2. Synchrony of replication cycle. Tight synchronization depends on the retention of the cytoplasmic bridge, as mentioned by the authors. In larger vacuoles, it is very conceivable not all parasites are connected with each other (notably in large cysts with bradyzoites), which could lead to loss of tight synchrony. The results section states "One plausible explanation is that the rosette split shortens the communication path between tachyzoites". This is somewhat cryptic language: does a 'rosette split' imply the rupture of the cytoplasmic bridge? This statement should be clarified. Another factor could be centrosome maturation, with the mother centrosome ready sooner than the daughter, which is a model proposed in schizogony, where the nuclear cycles in a shared cytoplasm are even more asynchronous/independent.
      3. Centrosome duplication. This has been documented to occur at the basal side of the nucleus (the whole nucleus rotates for centrosome duplication). The images as depicted in Fig 6 do not seem to indicate this event, possibly because it is not easy to track apical and basal end of the cell (#1 above). Please comment, as this could be an additional spatial cue to the specific stage of the cycle.
      4. Should the authors qualify some of their claims as preliminary or speculative, or remove them altogether?

      The authors are on the conservative end of interpretations and clearly outline the limitations of their approaches and observations, while discussing alternative interpretations. - Would additional experiments be essential to support the claims of the paper? Request additional experiments only where necessary for the paper as it is, and do not ask authors to open new lines of experimentation.

      No, the presented experiments and data are very complete - Are the suggested experiments realistic in terms of time and resources? It would help if you could add an estimated cost and time investment for substantial experiments.

      n/a - Are the data and the methods presented in such a way that they can be reproduced?

      yes - Are the experiments adequately replicated and statistical analysis adequate?

      yes

      Minor comments:

      • Specific experimental issues that are easily addressable.
      • The term "Apicomplexan" should be spelled with a lower case "apicomplexan", which is not consistently applied throughout the manuscript.
      • Line 567 the term used in 2008 was "tightly knit" not "closely woven".
      • Are prior studies referenced appropriately?

      Yes - Are the text and figures clear and accurate?

      Yes, exceptional - Do you have suggestions that would help the authors improve the presentation of their data and conclusions?

      See major point #1 above.

      Referees cross-commenting

      Comment to Rev 1: https://doi.org/10.1128/msphere.00160-22. reports on use of FUCCI in the host cell, not in the parasite itself. This comment therefore does not apply.

      Comment to Rev 3: the technicality on FUCCI acting on the protein level. That is a legit concern that needs attention, and could be fixed by avoiding the term FUCCI, or putting the term in the exact context.

      Looks like a shared general concern is that it is not always clear where apical and basal ends are in the presented data. This should be addressed in revision.

      Significance

      • Describe the nature and significance of the advance (e.g. conceptual, technical, clinical) for the field.

      The presented manuscript reports on a technical innovation in Apicomplexa: establishing a FUCCI system. However they did not stop there and added additional markers to unravel the timing and nature of S/M/G2/C overlaps that illuminated previously underappreciated or unknow details. The tools assembled here will be of great value for understanding not only T. gondii endodyogeny checkpoints and sequence of events, but also paves the way for similar studies in more complex apicomplexan cell division modes, like schizogony and endopolygeny. - Place the work in the context of the existing literature (provide references, where appropriate).

      The authors very appropriately provide the wider context and completely cover where the field stands. E.g. this protein microscopy-based work fills in the fine grain details where recent advances in transcriptional profiles by single cell experiments cannot provide resolution. The authors do also an outstanding job in providing the background on the general understanding of molecular players, structures and process controls across eukaryotes that pinpoint where the Apicomplexa are different. - State what audience might be interested in and influenced by the reported findings.

      The audience comprises a wide array of people with interests in cell cycle regulation, cell cycle checkpoints, DNA replication, nuclear organization across biological systems, and Apicomplexa in particular - Define your field of expertise with a few keywords to help the authors contextualize your point of view. Indicate if there are any parts of the paper that you do not have sufficient expertise to evaluate.

      Toxoplasma gondii cell biology - sufficient expertise across the board

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      Referee #1

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      The manuscript by Batra et al have tried to dissect out two aspect to understand the complex cell cycle of Toxoplasma endodyogeny. One is to development of Fluorescent Ubiquitination-based Cell Cycle Indicator (FUCCI) technology for Toxoplasma gondii and then to use that for understanding the complex cell cycle. The authors have created ToxoFUCCIs and ToxoFUCCIsc probes using TgPCNA1 tagged with NeonGreen and TgIMC3 tagged with mCherry and used to dissect the different phases of cell cycle like S, G2, G1 and cytokinesis. Overall technology development is good though as they claim that they are first is not true as it has been used earlier by https://doi.org/10.1128/msphere.00160-22. Hence may be that they have used to decipher the cell cycle.

      The manuscript is extremely dense and at times very difficult to read and to be clear if they are focussing on the technology or cell cycle. The technology may be a better part of manuscript but the dissection of cell cycle is not very novel and at times very confusing to follow. Many of these aspects has been dissected out previously from their own group and many group in Toxoplasma and Plasmodium and it is quite known about that the cell cycle in Apicomplexa is very complex. Another aspect that most FUCCI use Geminin and CDT1 factors and since Geminin is not present it would have been better to validate that with CDT1 that is present in Apicomplexa and may be more relevant than PCNA1. The first part of the manuscript only deals with first to identify the function and localisation of PCNA1 and then develop FUCCI technology and then go on to study cell cycle. So the focus of the manuscript is not clear. It seems three different results are just assembled together in one manuscript with out clear focus. Some of the conclusion on the that Replication starts at centromere region is not novel and has been studied previously.

      In order to get clear focus the authors should clear set out the focus as to why they developed FUCCCI and how they decipher either replication, budding, apical or basal complex, centrosome or cytokinesisas well to be used for drug discovery The way it is organised it is not flowing well and confuses the reader who may not be aware of different compartment of Toxoplasma cell or not a molecular parasitologist.<br /> The manuscript needs revising by writing precisely eliminating too much literature reference in the result section with clear focus. Some of these references can be elaborated in the introduction and discussion to keep the focus.

      Some points with respect to figures:

      Generally with image panels, arrows don't stand out well

      Fig1: no scale bars and the green arrow do not stand out. So may be to make white.

      Fig 2E: state the time point in the fig without IAA treatment (-IAA)

      Fig4: no bell shaped curve

      Fig 5D: it isn't obvious what the numbers on the right hand side of the graph mean. If it is size, there should be a unit given

      Figure 6 - how do they determine that the tachyzoites have progressed through 61% of S phase? Make this clearer here.

      Fig7: it a strange way of ordering the figure as FigE is after Fig F hence no logical order.

      Fig 8H is not mentioned in the text

      Figure 9 is nice and useful but the arrows could be made proportional of time spent in each cell cycle phase. They're a little off in the conventional cell cycle at the minute

      Some comment on the text in the manuscript:

      Line 137: describing the expression pattern: the following papers first described the expression pattern of PCNA1 and 2 can be cited in the result. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.molbiopara.2005.03.020

      Line 154: Provide schematic for AID HA cloning and confirmation.

      Line 157: Fig 2 after 4 h treatment FACS analysis shows more than 1 and less than 2n genomic content. Does this study have any -IAA treated control for 4h and 7h to compare as what should the standard genomic content to be there at this time point of development. At 4 h of development can the authors provide any statistical analysis with their 3 experiments to prove their point that the replication is actually stalled. Downregulation of TgPCNA1 as shown is western blot is still basal protein left to carry the genomic replication in 7 mins. Can authors also state that TgPCNA 2 which is although non-essential but has no redundant role in the replication machinery.

      Line 178 : typing error "that that

      Line 179: states the role of TgPCNA 1 in DNA1 replication, however line 159 and 160 states the TgPCNA1 deficient can fulfil DNA replication. Can author confirm this contrast in the results. Results trying to illustrate the same fact TgFUCCIs or TgPCNA1ng that TgPCNA1 first aggregates at centromeres and then distributed on many replication forks and disappears late during cytokinesis. The part of the result can be merged.

      Line 189: Typing error, should say "such as nucleus", currently as is missing

      Line 346-349: basically explaining the same thing twice.

      Line 347 - immunfluorescent should be immunofluorescence

      Line 395-399: does this study has any non-inhibited (-IAA control) at 4h and 7 h. for fig 7C & 7G. Can the authors provide any statistical analysis for the significance with their 3 experiments.

      Line 415: Why the authors have not used the TgFUUCI sc lines which expresses the TgPCNAng and IMCmch both. This could have helped to understand the real time dynamics of DNA replication and budding initiation (cytokenesis), rather then fixing and staining with TgIMC.

      Overall good technology development as FUCCI but the rest of the manuscript is extremely dense and the focus of the study is not clear after technology part. The complexity of the cell cycle is known and hence not much novelty here and extremely descriptive and hard read. Science can be simplified.

      Significance

      The development of FUCCI technology is significant part of the manuscript and to understand cellcycle may be they could have used CDT1 rather than PCNA as there is another PCNA 2 that also exist. The authors have given some convincing result for some aspect of cell cycle of which most are known and only it is quite incremental.at some part. The technology may contribute to the methodology development in Apicomplexa.

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      Referee #3

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      This study by Mordier and colleagues represents an in depth analysis to clarify the evolutionary history and processes of the rapidly evolving Schlafen gene family with a strong focus on primates and rodents.

      The study is of high quality in my opinion, though I do have some minor comments:

      1. Fig 2 and Fig 4B present inferred phylogenetic trees of schalfens in primates and rodents - these trees appear to be unrooted or rooted on a single species rather than an outgroup/gene. I suggest that the authors consider whether an outgroup gene could be included or if an outgroup free approach could be used to estimate the position of the root. This is important because the use of an unrooted tree to make inferences on gene family evolution has important implications - for example, there are no clades in an unrooted tree (Wilkinson et al 2007, Trends Ecol Evol).
      2. Schlafen proteins beyond mammals are referred to as SLFN11, it is not clear why this is the case because they seem to be co-orthologous to all mammal schalfen groups (except SLFNL1) based on supplementary figure S2. In this context, perhaps this image should form part of the main text?
      3. For blast searches parameters should be included - what cutoffs were implied for similarity searches etc. Related to this on line 120-121 homology is described as 'significant'. Homology refers to an evolutionary relationship, sequence similarity may be significant or not based on the search performed but homology is qualitative and simply detectable or not.
      4. The first results section describes the results of phylogenetic analyses, however this section relies heavily on what might better be considered interpretation of these analyses, this is great and should be included but I suggest that the branching patterns in the trees and bootstrap values supporting relationships between genes are also reported in the text to link interpretations to actual results.
      5. Bustos 2009 included viral genes belonging to the family in their analyses and I think it may be pertinent to do so here also to determine if the results are consistent or not.
      6. Was a rate heterogeneity (e.g. gamma rates / +G) parameter considered in phylogenetic analyses or model testing, it is not reported here and very rare for this not to improve model fit and phylogenetic accuracy.
      7. The authors state that all data are available in public databases, but this is not the case for the results they generated. Making various file types produced in this study would be good - e.g. alignments, phylogenetic tree files, structures, etc.

      Significance

      This study is an important step forward in clarifying our understanding of schalfen evolution. I think the manuscript will be of interest to a number of research areas, including gene family evolution because of its focus on an unusually rapidly evolving gene cluster and to those working on the schalfen gene families functional importance in development and immunity. The results may also draw interest from those interested in the confluence of protein structure, function, and evolution. My expertise In the context of this study is in the phylogenetics and evolution of rapidly evolving gene families.

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      Referee #2

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      In the current manuscript, Mordier et al. combine bioinformatic searches, synteny, and phylogenetic analysis to reconstruct the duplicative history of the Schlafen Genes in rodents and primates and then use molecular evolution analyses in combination with structural modeling to make inferences regarding the role of natural selection in the evolution of this gene family. The study represents an update on Bustos et al. (2009), who had already presented evidence that Positive Darwinian selection was likely a factor in the diversification of these genes in mammals. In this context, the contribution of this paper is the identification of sites that are candidates to be evolving under natural selection, and the structural exploration of the location of these sites in the proteins. CODEML strength lies in the detection of signatures of positive selection at the codon level, but it is not that accurate when it comes to pinpointing the actual sites that might be under selection. Hence, without experimental data, these inferences remain speculative. The manuscript is well-written and represents an update on the evolution of this gene family.

      Major Issues

      The rationale for the choice of species included in the analyses is never presented, and some of it is hard to understand. Why do authors exclude the platypus but include non-mammalian lobe-finned vertebrates is not clear. If they are going to discuss the evolution of these genes outside mammals, the authors need to survey a much wider array of genomes. Even within mammals, there is little discussion on why some species were included and others not. I think that focusing the study on rodents and primates is OK, but I also think that providing a strong justification of the selection of species to include in the study and a tree that justifies splitting the focus on rodents and primates would also be important.

      In the trees in Figures 2 and 4, several genes considered as orthologs are not in monophyletic groups. These pattern aligns well with the birth-and-death model of gene family evolution, and has implications for their molecular evolution analyses. The authors need to address this issue explicitly. I would use topology tests to evaluate whether these deviations from the expected topology are significant. In addition, the relevant tests to report here are M8 vs M7 and M8 vs M8a. The M0 vs M1a comparison does not provide evidence for positive Darwinian selection. If the M8 vs M7 and M8 vs M8a tests are not significant, the inferences about sites evolving with dN/dS>1 are not really valid.

      CODEML can implements models that are designed to test patterns of gene family evolution, contrasting pre and post duplication branches, which I think would be of value in this family.

      Some analyses are described very succinctly, which would make replication challenging.

      Minor Issues

      Could 2R be responsible for the emergence of SLFN and SLFNL1?

      There are several minor issues authors should fix in a revised manuscript. In general, because results are presented before the materials and methods, I think it is easier for readers to have some of the information in the results section.

      They need to be consistent in using italics for species names as well as for capitalization.

      In the Alignment and maximum-likelihood phylogenies section the authors indicate that they used either Muscle or Mafft for the alignments. What was the rationale for picking one alignment over the other for a given gene? In this section, they also indicate the selected a best-fitting model of substitution using SMS, but then indicate that they used JTT for protein alignments and HKY for nucleotide alignments.

      How did the authors ensure that nucleotide alignments remained in frame?

      Significance

      I think this is a significant contribution to our understanding of the evolution of the Schlafen gene family. There are two key contributions here: the demonstration that gene conversion is a factor obscuring relationships among genes in this gene family, and the mapping of amino acids inferred be evolving under positive selection to structurally important residues of the proteins. These residues should be of interest for functional assays that evaluate the functional role of these proteins.

    1. une réduction du risque de cancer du côlon et des autres cancers digestifs.
      1. Le lien donné dans l'article pointe vers une étude qui ne montre pas la réduction du risque de cancer colorectal chez les femmes THM, mais cherche à évaluer l'effet de la génétique combiné à celui des THM. En outre les scores polygéniques de risque utilisés par les auteurs n'ont aucune valeur probante.

      2. La dernière revue systématique publiée sur le sujet remonte à 2021. Sa conclusion est à l'inverse : "La synthèse des données probantes a montré ce qui suit : (1) le THM a montré une hétérogénéité dans les résultats concernant le risque de cancer colorectal avec une légère tendance à un effet neutre ou protecteur ; (2) l'effet du THM était soit neutre soit protecteur sur l'adénome colorectal ; (3) le THM n'avait pas d'impact sur le grade de la tumeur, le sous-site et les types histologiques ; (4) le THM n'était pas associé à la mortalité due au cancer colorectal ; et (5) le THM a montré des effets hétérogènes sur le stade du cancer colorectal et sur son caractère invasif, respectivement. En résumé, malgré certaines données indiquant un effet protecteur de THM sur le cancer colorectal, le THM n'est actuellement pas recommandé par les lignes directrices internationales pour la prévention primaire du cancer colorectal, en raison de plusieurs effets importants et potentiellement nocifs."

      cf. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/cen.14469

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study investigates the potential of targeting specific regions within the RNA genome of the Porcine Epidemic Diarrhea Virus (PEDV) for antiviral drug development. The authors used SHAPE-MaP to analyze the structure of the PEDV RNA genome in infected cells. They categorized different regions of the genome based on their structural characteristics, focusing on those that might be good targets for drugs or small interfering RNAs (siRNAs).

      They found that dynamic single-stranded regions can be stabilized by compounds (e.g., to form G-quadruplexes), which inhibit viral proliferation. They demonstrated this by targeting a specific G4-forming sequence with a compound called Braco-19. The authors also describe stable (structured) single-stranded regions that they used to design siRNAs showing that they effectively inhibited viral replication.

      Strengths:

      There are a number of strengths to highlight in this manuscript.

      (1) The study uses a sophisticated technique (SHAPE-MaP) to analyze the PEDV RNA genome in situ, providing valuable insights into its structural features.

      (2) The authors provide a strong rationale for targeting specific RNA structures for antiviral development.

      (3) The study includes a range of experiments, including structural analysis, compound screening, siRNA design, and viral proliferation assays, to support their conclusions.

      (4) Finally, the findings have potential implications for the development of new antiviral therapies against PEDV and other RNA viruses.

      Overall, this interesting study highlights the importance of considering RNA structure when designing antiviral therapies and provides a compelling strategy for identifying promising RNA targets in viral genomes.

      Weaknesses:

      I have some concerns about the utility of the 3D analyses, the effects of their synonymous mutants on expression/proliferation, a potentially missed control for studies of mutants, and the therapeutic utility of the compound they tested vs. G-quadruplexes.

    1. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors describe elevated GSDMD expression in psoriatic skin, and knock-out of GSDMD abrogates psoriasis-like inflammation.

      Strengths:

      The study is well conducted with transgenic mouse models. Using mouse-models with GSDMD knock-out showing abrogating inflammation, as well as GSDMD fl/fl mice without neutrophils having a reduced phenotype.

      My major concern would be the involvement of other inflammasome and GSDMD bearing cell types, esp. Keratinocytes (KC), which could be an explanation why the experiments in Fig 4 still show inflammation.

      Comments on revisions:

      The authors have sufficiently addressed my questions.

    2. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife Assessment

      This is a potentially interesting study regarding the role of gasdesmin D in experimental psoriasis. The study contains useful data from murine models of skin inflammation, however the main claims (on neutrophil pyroptosis) are incompletely supported in its current form and require additional experimental support to justify the conclusions made.

      We sincerely appreciate the positive assessment regarding the significance of our study, as well as the valuable suggestions provided by the reviewers. We have included new data, further discussions and clarifications in the revised manuscript to adequately address all the concerns raised by the reviewers and better support our conclusions.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this study, Liu, Jiang, Diao et.al. investigated the role of GSDMD in psoriasis-like skin inflammation in mice. The authors have used full-body GSDMD knock-out mice and Gsdm floxed mice crossed with the S100A8- Cre. In both mice, the deficiency of GSDMD ameliorated the skin phenotype induced by the imiquimod. The authors also analyzed RNA sequencing data from the psoriatic patients to show an elevated expression of GSDMD in the psoriatic skin.

      Overall, this is a potentially interesting study, however, the manuscript in its current format is not completely a novel study.

      Strengths:

      It has the potential to unravel the new role of neutrophils.

      Weaknesses:

      The main claims are only partially supported and have scope to improve

      We thank the reviewer for the positive evaluation of the interest and potential of our work. In response to reviewers’ suggestions, we have added new content, including additional data and discussions, to further demonstrate the important role of GSDMD-mediated neutrophil pyroptosis in the pathogenesis of psoriasis, thereby enhancing the completeness of our research.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors describe elevated GSDMD expression in psoriatic skin, and knock-out of GSDMD abrogates psoriasis-like inflammation.

      Strengths:

      The study is well conducted with transgenic mouse models. Using mouse-models with GSDMD knock-out showing abrogating inflammation, as well as GSDMD fl/fl mice without neutrophils having a reduced phenotype.

      I fear that some of the conclusions cannot be drawn by the suggested experiments. My major concern would be the involvement of other inflammasome and GSDMD bearing cell types, esp. Keratinocytes (KC), which could be an explanation why the experiments in Fig 4 still show inflammation.

      Weaknesses:

      The experiments do not entirely support the conclusions towards neutrophils.

      We appreciate the reviewers’ positive evaluation regarding the application of our mouse models. We also thank the reviewers for insightful comments and suggestions that can improve the quality of our work. Addressing these issues has significantly strengthened our conclusions. Our responses to the above questions are as follows.

      Specific questions/comments:

      Fig 1b: mainly in KC and Neutrophils?

      In Figure 1b, we observed that GSDMD expression is higher in the psoriasis patient tissues compared to control samples. As the role of GSDMD in keratinocytes during the pathogenesis of psoriasis has already been explored[1], we focused our study on GSDMD in neutrophils. In response to the comments, we have added co-staining results of the neutrophil marker CD66b and GSDMD in the revised manuscript (see new Figure 3b in the revised manuscript). This addition further substantiates the expression of GSDMD in neutrophils within psoriasis tissue.

      Fig 2a: PASI includes erythema, scaling, thickness and area. Guess area could be trick, esp. in an artificial induced IMQ model (WT) vs. the knock-out mice.

      In our model, to accurately assess the disease condition in mice, we standardized the drug treatment area on the dorsal side (2*3 cm). Therefore, the area was not factored into the scoring process, and we have included a detailed description of this in the revised manuscript.

      Fig 2d: interesting finding. I thought that CASP-1 is cleaving GSDMD. Why would it be downregulated?

      Regarding the downregulation of CASP in GSDMD KO mouse skin tissue, existing studies indicate that GSDMD generates a feed-forward amplification cascade via the mitochondria-STING-Caspase axis [2]. We hypothesize that the absence of GSDMD attenuates STING signaling’s activation of Caspase.

      Line 313: as mentioned before (see Fig 1b). KC also show a stron GSDMD staining positivity and are known producers of IL-1b and inflammasome activation. Guess here the relevance of KC in the whole model needs to be evaluated.

      Our research primarily focuses on the role of neutrophil pyroptosis in psoriasis, this does not conflict with existing reports indicating that KC cell pyroptosis also contributes to disease progression[1]. Both studies underscore the significant role of GSDMD-mediated pyroptotic signaling in psoriasis, and the consistent involvement of KC cells and neutrophils further emphasizes the potential therapeutic value of targeting GSDMD signaling in psoriasis treatment. We have expanded upon this discussion in the revised manuscript.

      Fig 4i - guess here the conclusion would be that neutrophils are important for the pathogenesis in the IMQ model, which is true. This experiment does not support that this is done by pyroptosis.

      To address the question, we analyzed the publicly available single-cell transcriptomic data (GSE165021) and found that, compared to the control group, neutrophils infiltrating in IMQ-induced psoriasis-like tissue display a higher expression of pyroptosis-related genes (see new Figure 3e in the revised manuscript). These results strengthen our conclusions about the role of neutrophil pyroptosis in the progression of psoriasis.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Specific Comments:

      • Figure 1: Micro abscesses would already be dead, which would likely reflect as non-specific staining. Authors should consider double staining (e.g., GSDMD+Ly6G).

      We thank the reviewer for the useful suggestion. We have added co-staining results of the neutrophil marker CD66b and GSDMD in the revised manuscript (see new Figure 3b in the revised manuscript). This addition further substantiates the expression of GSDMD in neutrophils within psoriasis tissue.

      • Figures 1 b, c, and d do not have the n number for representative experiments and images.

      We apologize for our oversight. We have added the relevant information in the revised manuscript and have reviewed and corrected the entire text.

      • What is the difference between psoriasis patients in Figure 1 versus Figure 3 as the staining patterns are different? It is difficult to interpret from Figure 1 that expression is limited to neutrophils. Authors should consider double staining (e.g., GSDMD+Ly6G). How many samples were stained to draw this conclusion?

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. In Figure 1b, we observed that GSDMD expression is higher in the psoriasis patient tissues compared to control samples. We have added co-staining results of the neutrophil marker CD66b and GSDMD in the revised manuscript (see new Figure 3b in the revised manuscript). For each staining group, we examined samples from 3-5 patients to draw the conclusion.

      • Figure 2: GSDMD deficiency mitigates psoriasis-like inflammation in mice has been shown before (PMID#37673869). The paper showed that the GSDMD was mainly expressed in keratinocytes. What is the view of the authors on it and how does this data correlate with the data presented in this manuscript by the authors?

      Consistent with previous studies[1], we observed increased expression of pyroptosis-related proteins in psoriatic lesions. However, our research focused specifically on the role of neutrophil pyroptosis in psoriasis, this does not conflict with existing reports indicating that KC cell pyroptosis also contributes to disease progression. Both studies underscore the significant role of GSDMD-mediated pyroptotic signaling in psoriasis, and the consistent involvement of KC cells and neutrophils further emphasizes the potential therapeutic value of targeting GSDMD signaling in psoriasis treatment. We have expanded upon this discussion in the revised manuscript.

      • Figure 3d: It is unclear if the IF shows an epidermal or dermal area. As shown by authors in other figures (human psoriatic skin), do authors observe more GSDMD in the micro abscess, which is localized in the epidermis? The authors should also show the staining of GSDM/Ly6G in the whole skin sample.

      The region we presented for immunofluorescence staining corresponds to the dermis of the mice, as we did not observe typical neutrophil micro abscesses similar to those in human psoriasis in the epidermis of IMQ-induced classical psoriasis vulgaris (PV) model. Therefore, we have only shown the staining in the dermal area.

      • Figure 3e: PI staining also represents necrotic cells and TUNEL staining would not represent just apoptotic cells. It is unclear how the authors conclude an ongoing pyroptosis in neutrophils. A robust dataset is needed to provide evidence supporting neutrophil pyroptosis in the IMQ-challenged mice.

      We thank the reviewer for the valuable suggestion. GSDMD is the effector protein of pyroptosis. To further confirm that cells are undergoing pyroptosis, it is necessary to morphologically stain the GSDMD N-terminal protein. Although there is currently no GSDMD N-terminal fluorescent antibody available, we detected the cleaved N-terminus of GSDMD by WB in mouse psoriasis-like skin tissue, and its increased expression suggested increased cell pyroptosis (see new Figure 1d in the revised manuscript). Moreover, we analyzed the publicly available single-cell transcriptomic data (GSE165021) and found that, compared to the control group, neutrophils infiltrating in IMQ-induced psoriasis-like tissue display a higher expression of pyroptosis-related genes (see new Figure 3e in the revised manuscript). These results strengthen our conclusions about the role of neutrophil pyroptosis in the progression of psoriasis.

      • Figure 4: The authors did not clarify the reason for choosing D4 over the usual D7 for the imiquimod experiment. S100A8-Cre is also reported in monocytes and granulocytes/monocyte progenitors. And, the authors also show the expression in macrophages and neutrophils, but in the text, only neutrophils are mentioned. The authors should state the results in the text as well to avoid misrepresentation of the data.

      We thank the reviewer for the useful suggestion. We have repeated many times of experiments in our previous studies and observed that the IMQ-induced mouse psoriasis model showed the obvious signs of self-resolution after Day 4 even with continuing topical IMQ application, thus we chose 4 days over 7 days for the imiquimod experiment, which are consistent with many other studies[3, 4].

      Many studies use S100A8-Cre mice for neutrophil-specific gene knockout[5, 6]. Moreover, we used Ly6G antibody to eliminate neutrophils in GSDMD-cKO mice and control mice. It was found that the difference in lesions between the two groups was abolished after neutrophil depletion, indicating that neutrophil pyroptosis plays an important role in the pathogenesis of imiquimod-induced psoriasis-like lesions in mice. As the database analysis results showed that macrophages have slight expression of S100a8, according to the suggestion of the reviewer, we have added a more precise description in the revised manuscript.

      • Figure S2a: Ly6G antibody reduced the ly6G positive, but also negative cells compared to PBS. If this is correct, what is the explanation, and how this observation has been considered for concluding results?

      Neutrophils play an important role in regulating inflammatory responses, and their deletion can reduce the overall inflammatory level in the body, which also results in a decrease in other non-neutrophil cells. However, this change does not affect our conclusions. Our results show that after the deletion of neutrophils, there is no difference in the pathological manifestations between the cKO group and the control group. This further that GSDMD in neutrophil plays an important role in the pathogenesis of miquimod-induced psoriasis-like lesions in mice.

      • The conclusion in Figure 4i is incorrect as Ly6G administration had an effect on the wt, so it shows neutrophils play a role, but not neutrophil pyroptosis.

      - 321 "It was found that the difference in lesions between the

      - 321 two groups was abolished after neutrophil depletion (Fig4i, S2a), indicating that

      - 322 neutrophil pyroptosis plays an important role in the pathogenesis of

      - 323 imiquimod-induced psoriasis-like lesions in mice"

      Our results show that after the deletion of neutrophils, there is no difference in the pathological manifestations between the cKO group and the control group. This further indicates that the lower disease scores observed in cKO mice, in the absence of neutrophil deletion, depend on the presence of neutrophils. In the revised manuscript, we have changed the statement to “It was found that the difference in lesions between the two groups was abolished after neutrophil depletion (Fig4i, S2a), indicating that GSDMD in neutrophil plays an important role in the pathogenesis of miquimod-induced psoriasis-like lesions in mice”

      • The effect of LyG Ab: reduced PASI in the wt, but the effect on the ko remains the same. What are the other molecular changes observed? What was the level of neutrophils in the wt and the S1A008Cre GsdmDfl/fl mice under steady state and how are they change upon imiquimod challenge? A complete profiling of the immune cells is needed for all the experiments.

      As demonstrated by the results, the deletion of neutrophils did not significantly alter the pathological phenotype of cKO mice. We believe that this outcome precisely highlights the crucial role of GSDMD in regulating neutrophil inflammatory responses.

      • Figure S2b: The authors conclude that Il-1b in the imiquimod skin is mainly expressed by neutrophils, but the analysis presented in the figure does not support this conclusion. Both neutrophils and macrophages are majorly positive for I1-b, with some expression on Langerhans and fibroblasts. No n numbers are provided for the experiment

      As we discussed in the manuscript, we speculate that neutrophil pyroptosis may release cytokines, which in turn activate other cells to secrete cytokines, forming a complex inflammatory network in psoriasis. This may suggest that neutrophil pyroptosis may be involved in the pathogenesis of psoriasis by affecting the secretion of cytokines such as IL-1B and IL-6 by neutrophils, thereby affecting the function of other immune cells such as T cells and macrophages.

      We have added the n number in the revised manuscript.

      • For clarity and transparency, a list of antibodies with the associate clone and catalogue number should be provided or integrated into the method text.

      We thank the reviewer for the useful suggestion. We have added the associate clone and catalogue number of antibodies used in the method text of revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Fig 3b: psoriasis and pustular psoriasis have a different pathophysiology (autoimmune vs. autoinflammatory). Neutrophils are centrally important for GPP for the cleavage of IL-36. Guess as not further referred to pustular psoriasis in the paper, that comparison is rather deviating from the story.

      In Figure 3b, we stained for GSDMD and CD66b in both plaque psoriasis (PV) and generalized pustular psoriasis (GPP), not to compare the expression differences between the two types of psoriasis, but rather to demonstrate that significant GSDMD expression is present in neutrophils in different types of psoriasis. Unfortunately, due to the lack of a well-established animal model for GPP, we were only able to conduct studies using the established PV animal model. We acknowledge this limitation in our research. In our revised manuscript, we have added the following explanation in the discussion section: “Although we observed significantly increased GSDMD in neutrophils in pustular psoriasis, we were constrained to studying the established PV animal model due to the current absence of a mature GPP animal model. This represents a limitation of our study.”

      In summary, we appreciate the Reviewer’s comments and suggestions. We feel that the inclusion of new data addresses the concerns in a comprehensive manner and adds further support to our original conclusions. We hope you will now consider the revised manuscript worthy of publication in eLife.

      References:

      (1) Lian, N., et al., Gasdermin D-mediated keratinocyte pyroptosis as a key step in psoriasis pathogenesis. Cell Death & Disease, 2023. 14(9): p. 595.

      (2) Han, J., et al., GSDMD (gasdermin D) mediates pathological cardiac hypertrophy and generates a feed-forward amplification cascade via mitochondria-STING (stimulator of interferon genes) axis. Hypertension, 2022. 79(11): p. 2505-2518.

      (3) Lin, H., et al., Forsythoside A alleviates imiquimod-induced psoriasis-like dermatitis in mice by regulating Th17 cells and IL-17a expression. Journal of Personalized Medicine, 2022. 12(1): p. 62.

      (4) Emami, Z., et al., Evaluation of Kynu, Defb2, Camp, and Penk Expression Levels as Psoriasis Marker in the Imiquimod‐Induced Psoriasis Model. Mediators of Inflammation, 2024. 2024(1): p. 5821996.

      (5) Stackowicz, J., et al., Neutrophil-specific gain-of-function mutations in Nlrp3 promote development of cryopyrin-associated periodic syndrome. Journal of Experimental Medicine, 2021. 218(10): p. e20201466.

      (6) Abram, C.L., et al., Distinct roles for neutrophils and dendritic cells in inflammation and autoimmunity in motheaten mice. Immunity, 2013. 38(3): p. 489-501.

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      Reply to the reviewers

      Reviewer #1 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      This is an interesting manuscript from two groups of experts in Notch signaling biology with complementary expertise in Drosophila genetics (Klein) and in biophysical studies of the Notch pathway (Sprinzak). The paper provides a cutting-edge structure-function dissection of the E3 ubiquitin ligase Neuralized and its mammalian homologs, Neurl1a and Neurl1a. The work is particularly relevant since the functions of mammalian Neurl1a and Neurl1b have been questioned, and more subtle altogether than those of fly Neuralized (as summarized by the authors in Fig. 1C). This is in part due to the dominant effects of the E3 ubiquitin ligase Mindbomb1 (Mib1) in Notch ligand-expressing cells from mammalian systems. The authors use careful structure-function work in fly development (mostly wing imaginal discs) and in mammalian cell culture systems, including a clever approach to study the function of mammalian Neurl1a and Neurl1b and mammalian/fly Notch ligand hybrids in Drosophila to draw new conclusions about the function of Neurl1a/b, showing that they can function as activators of Notch signaling mediated by the Notch ligands Dll1 and Jag1, and not by Dll4 and Jag2, tracing these differential effects to the recognition of a short NXXN consensus sequence in the N-terminal region of the ligand's intracellular domain.

      __response: __We thank the reviewer for highlighting the novelty of our findings and experimental approach.

      Specific questions: -The current title of the manuscript is not very information-rich and would not allow a reader to gather key information about the findings without reading at least the abstract. Could this be improved? For example, by referring to differential activation of individual Notch ligands, or some other more direct description of the key findings?

      __Response: __We appreciate the reviewer's suggestion; however, we believe that the general nature of the title is appropriate in this case.

      -The authors design most key experiments documenting agonistic effects of Neurl1a/1b in a Mib1-deficient background, both in flies and in cell culture systems. This is understandable experimentally to isolate Neurl1a/b's effects in these experimental systems. However, this leaves open questions as to the prevailing effects of Neurl1a/b in cells that also express Mib1 (which the authors comment on in the discussion based on past findings, including some suggesting that Neurl1a/1b can function as Notch inhibitors through a ligand ubiquitination mechanism that may differ from their activating function).

      Do the authors actually have data that could shed light on this discussion? For example, have they performed cell coculture assays in which Neurl1a or Neurl1b is co-expressed with a Notch ligand, but in the presence of Mib1? This condition seems to be systematically omitted from all the coculture experiments that are presented. It would be interesting to evaluate the net effect of Neurl1a/Neurl1b expression in a Mib1-sufficient system as well.

      Response: We have systematically removed MIB1 in our experiments because it activates all ligands, making its removal necessary to show the differential activity of Neurls. The question regarding competition between Mib1 and Neurls, as highlighted by the reviewer, is indeed intriguing. However, systematically investigating this competition would require varying the relative levels of the two proteins in a controlled manner, which is beyond the scope of this manuscript.

      That said, we will perform the competition experiments suggested by the reviewers (co-expressing ligands with both Neurl1 and Mib1) and test their activity as controls. While these experiments may provide some insight into the competition, they will not comprehensively address the entire topic.

      -The paper suggests important predictions about mammalian functions of Neurl1a/1b, including the neurological effects that have been reported, in double-deficient mice, namely that that there are cells that only express Neurl1a/1b and not Mib1 and do rely on Dll1 and Jag1 for signaling. Could the authors at least comment on this prediction? Are there are any single cell atlases where candidate cells like that can be identified? Or would the authors predict that Neurl1a/1b could actually function as Notch agonist even in cells expressing Mib1? (see also previous comment)

      Response: This is an interesting suggestion. We will try to find if we can identify any specific expression patterns of E3 ubiquitin ligases across different tissues.

      -Some minor typos: line 305 should likely read "flies homozygous for (...)". Line 408, "for providing" repeated twice.

      Response: We thank the reviewer for pointing out this typo.

      Reviewer #1 (Significance (Required)):

      Thank you for the opportunity to review this lovely collaborative paper. As indicated in my comments to the authors, the findings provide novel structure-function information about an understudied aspect of Notch signaling and clarify conflicting past data about the mammalian homologs of fly Neuralized. The approach is elegant and multidisciplinary, notably in regards to the combination of cell co-culture systems and Drosophila as a platform to study mammalian Neuralized proteins and hybrid Notch ligand molecules. The findings will be interesting to the field and will generate discussion. I would suggest that some additional information would be a plus to substantiate predictions about mammalian functions of Neurl1a/b, and also to clarify its effects in the presence or absence of concomitant Mib1 expression.

      We thank the reviewer for their positive evaluation of our work and for suggesting potential future direction regarding the concomitant expression of Mib1 and Neurls proteins.

      Reviewer #2 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      Summary

      The manuscript describes an analysis of specificity of functional interactions between mammalian Neuralized proteins and different human ligands for Notch. To investigate this, the authors take the approach of constructing hybrid proteins that contain the intracellular domain of the human ligands and the extracellular domain of the Drosophila Delta or Serrate, and investigate their activity in vivo, in the Drosophila wing disc. The latter is a well-established model tissue for assessing Notch ligand activity. As a second assay they express mammalian neutralized constructs in human cells for luciferase-based Notch signal reporter assays. The experiments are well presented and described and make a strong case for the conclusions that both Neurl1 and 2 can activate Notch signalling by Dll1 and Jag1 but not Dll4 and Jag2. Use of different mutant intracellular domains is used to show the importance of the NXXN motif, which in Drosophila is required for Neuralized interaction with Delta and Serrate. The use of missense mutations and in particular the reactivation of the cryptic NXXD site in Dll4 by substitution to N is convincing for establishing the importance of the motif. There is also colocalization data to support the conclusion that there is likely to be NXXN-dependent complex formation between the ligand and Neuralized proteins. This latter conclusion would be made firmer fi there were pull down data to support it, although to be fair it is most unlikely that another explanation, other than complex formation could account for the observation of both colocalization and ligand activation.

      __Response: __We appreciate the reviewer's positive assessment of our manuscript and their support for the conclusions drawn from our experiments. We intend to conduct the suggested co-IP experiments with our cell culture assays to further supplement our current data.

      __ Major comments__ The main limitation of the work is that it is mostly based on overexpression of constructs to activate ectopic expression rather than gene editing endogenous genes. It would be helpful if the authors could comment on the limitations of the work in discussion.

      Two points of data included in the work are important in mitigating this limitation. Firstly, the experiments in the wing disc and cell culture are taking place in a mindbomb mutant background and the activation is observed is therefore a rescue of activity that has been lost.

      Secondly, and importantly, the final experiment makes use of a Dl mutant Drosophila line which shows embryo lethality when homozygous, with the characteristic neurogenic phenotype. Rescue of lethality can be brought about by knock-in experiments which restore Dl function and this is also true for the ligand hybrid constructs that introduce mammalian ligand intracellular domains only when they include the NXXN motif This indicates the importance of the motif in normal development- Overall, the data presented in the paper is convincing as regards the conclusions made.

      __Response: __We thank the reviewer for their very positive evaluation and his constructive suggestions, which have helped to improve the manuscript. In line with these suggestions, we will include additional data analyzing the bristle SOP selection, a process dependent on Neur. Our Results show that homozygosity of the DlattP-Dl-DLL1 allele, but not the DlattP-Dl-DLL4 allele, leads to correct Notch mediated selection. This finding provides further evidence that Neur requires the NxxN motif in the ICD of a ligand to activate DSL ligands. Notably, we previously showed that this selection relies on the NxxN motif of Dl (Troost et al., 2023). We will further emphasize in the discussion the ability of Dl-DLL4 hybrid ligands, containing a reconstructed NxxN motif, to rescue the neurogenic phenotype of Dl mutants.

      Minor points In figure 1 the legend for D says that cryptic sites are substitutions of N for E or Q, but the figure and main text indicate that the substitutions are N to E or D.

      Response: We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. We will correct this mistake.

      In the remain figures it would be helpful to include in the figure legends and indications of the numbers of wing discs, embryos for which the images shown are representative of.

      __Response: __We will quantify the experiments conducted in the wing imaginal discs of Drosophila by measuring the wing field size along the dorsal-ventral axis relative to the anterior-posterior axis. Statistical analysis will be performed to demonstrate statistical significance across n=5 experiments for each sample.

      In Fg 3 The activation of Notch, by neural1 and Dl-Jag1 in B'" is stronger in the ventral side of the disc than the dorsal whereas, although activation of the same ligand by Neurl2 in C'" is weaker the majority of the ectopic wingless expression is on the dorsal compartment. Is there any reason for the switch in preference between the two neutralized proteins? Overgrowth of the wing disc seems to be similar on both sides and so am wondering if the picture is representative of the ectopic wingless distribution in this case.

      Response: As discussed above we will perform quantification and statistical analysis across multiple experiments to confirm that our images are truly representative.

      Reviewer #2 (Significance (Required)):

      Significance

      Previous work on double genetic knockouts of the two mouse Neuralized genes cast doubt as to whether Neuralized proteins play a role in Notch signal activation in mammals, unlike in Drosophila. There is, however, some genetic indications that spatial memory requires both Notch and neutralized proteins and may represent a specialised function limited to the Neuralized interaction. There are likely to be more subtle contexts waiting to be uncovered. The work is therefore showing important proof of principle for establishing the functionality of the mammalian Neurl proteins and highlights new findings indicting specialisation of the different ligands for interactions with Notch components. Elucidation of such specialisations will help understand why the diversity of different homologues of Notch and ligand have evolved and are maintained in the vertebrate genome compared to the single Notch and two ligands in Drosophila. Since Notch and it misregulation are widely involved in development, health and disease and there is much interest in developing therapeutic interactions that alter Notch activity then the work is likely of broad interest.

      We thank the reviewer for the very positive evaluation and his useful suggestions which were helpful in improving the manuscript.

      Reviewer #3 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      **Summary**

      Notch signalling is one of the major evolutionarily conserved signalling pathways involved in numerous developmental, physiological and pathological processes. Activation of the Notch receptor first requires ubiquitination of its ligands (collectively temed DSL), leading to a 'pulling force" that, upon ligand-receptor engagement, exposes Notch to intramembrane proteolysis leading to the nuclear translocation of the receptor's intracellular domain and activation of target genes with its DNA-binding co-factors.

      While both Neuralized (Neurl) and Mind bomb are the E3 ubiquitin ligases for Notch ligands required for Drosphila development, in mammals, the Neur homologues Neur1 (officially Neurl1) and Neur2 (officially Neurl1B) are dispensable for development since double Neur1/2 knock-out mice have no developmental phenotype (but both Neur homologues are involved the the memory-related functions of Notch pathway in adulthood). Rather, just one of the two mammalian Mind bomb homologues, Mib1, functions as the chief E3 ligase for Notch ligands during mammalian development as evidenced by its Notch-related knockout phenotype.

      Therefore, it has not been fully established whether and how the NEUR proteins regulate the mammalian Notch ligands. To clarify this issue, the authors assessed the capability of Drosophila Neur and mammalian NEUR1 and 2 proteins to activate the various hybrid Notch ligands (containing extracellularly Drosophila Delta and intracellularly the various Notch ligands' intracellular domains) in Drosophila wing dics and mammalian cell culture. The authors found that NEUR proteins only activate the Notch ligands containing a Neuralized binding motif, with the consensus sequence NxxN, that is present in DLL1 and JAG1, but not in DLL4 and JAG2. The authors also analyse the intracellular domains of mammalian Notch ligands DLL1, DLL4, JAG1 and JAG2 in Drosophila by generating knock-in alleles where endogenous Dl expression had been substituted for those of hybrid Notch ligands. This analysis showed that only in Dl-DLL1 and Dl-JAG1 flies but not in Dl-DLL4 and Dl-JAG" flies is the embryonic lethality rescued, the results being in agreement with the hybrid Dl-DLL experiments on wing dics reported earlier in this work.

      The authors conclude that their findings suggest that the activation mechanism of Notch during development differs between Drosophila (where both Neur and Mib1 are required for Notch-related developmental processes ) and mammals and that this could possibly explain the apparently lesser relevance of mammalian NEUR proteins for developmental Notch signalling.

      *Evidence and clarity*

      The manuscript is quite laconic but clearly written. The evidence presented by the authors, given the heterologous and in vitro nature (i.e using mammalian or hybrid Notch ligands and mammalian E3 ligases thereof in Drosophila and cell cultures) of the study is generally trustworthy but limited in the sense that it probably does not allow definitive conclusions to be drawn as to the differing nature of the action of the E3 ligases of Notch ligands in flies vs mammals in vivo.

      __Response: __We thank the reviewer for their positive evaluation of our work and their constructive criticism. We would like to clarify that we do not conclude that the activation mechanism differs between mammals and flies. Our findings demonstrate that the signalling mechanisms of fly Neur and mammalian Neurl's follow the same fundamental rules. Moreover, our study does not aim to provide a definitive answer to how signalling differs between species. Instead, we utilized the 'humanized fly' system to show that Neurl proteins specifically activate Dll1 and Jag1, but not Dll4 and Jag2, which lack a neuralized binding site.

      *Reproducibility*

      As will be mentioned a number of times, these reviewers would like to enquire as to the reasons for not providing a statistical analysis of variation in the fly wing disc-based experiments (where the readout was either resuce of Wg expression or induction of ectopic Wg expression).

      Response: We thank the reviewer for raising this important point. As outlined below, we will quantify the fly experiments and conduct statistical analysis across multiple experimental datasets to further substantiate our claims.

      Also, while the constructs used in the study were inserted into the same genomic landing sites to achieve comparable levels of expression of the various proteins, these reviewers would like to see data on the levels of expression of NEUR1 and 2 as well as the hybrid Notch ligands.

      **Major comments**

      Comment on fly wing disc experiments:

      The authors study both the capability of two different mammalian E3 ubiquitin ligases, Neuralized-like 1 and 2 (mouse Neur1 and human NEUR2) to activate four different Notch receptors (DLL1 and 2, JAG1 and 2) in flies and mammalian cell culture system. In flies, they first analyse the capability of Drosophila Neur (as a positive control) and Neur1 and NEUR2 to activate the various Notch ligands (based on wingless activation as a readout) in wild-type wings (where, Mind bomb 1, or Mib1 is the only E3 ligase for Notch ligands present) and Mib1 mutant wing discs (which lack any E3 ligands of Notch receptors). The authors then test four humanised, hybrid Notch ligands (all five N ligands bar Dll3 since the latter does not transactivate the Notch receptor) - where mammalian Notch ligands' intracellular domains, or ICDs, have been attached to fly Dl (Dl-Dll1, Dl-Dll4, Dl-JAG1, Dl-JAG2) - for their capacity to mediate Mib1-dependent activation of Notch (with ectopic Wg expression in wing discs as its readout). They found that all 4 ligands can activate Nocth in wild-type wings (where Mib1 is present), with Dl-JAG2 being less effective than the other 3 hybrid ligands, implying that such hybrid, humanised ligands can be usd in studying Notch pathway activation in Drosophila (thereby constituting a mixed/heterologous experimental system). The reviewers would like to get a comment as to the reason for the weaker activity of Dl-JAG2 in this set-up?.

      Response: We do not have a definitive answer as to why the ICDs differ in their activity within MIb1-dependent signalling, since this question was not addressed in the scope of this work. However, it our findings demonstrate that the hybrid ligands are functional in Drosophila and that their differential behavior in Neur-mediated signaling is not attributed to a trivial explanation, e. g. that the hybrid ligands generally display no activity. There are several potential explanations for these differences. One possibility is variations in position, arrangement, or number of targeted lysines among the ICDs. These lysines serve as substrates for ubiquitylation and determine the rate of endocytosis, which in turn impacts the signaling activity of the corresponding ligand/hybrid. Another plausible explanation is differences in affinity of the binding sites of Mib1, which would similarly result in variations in ubiquitylation and endocytosis rates. Regardless, we emphasize that resolving this question does not affect any of the conclusions of the manuscript.

      Also, the reviewers would like to get a comment as to why was not a Neur mutant set-up used, only Mib1 mutant dics?

      Response: Neur is only expressed at a very late stage in wing development and is restricted to specific single cells (sensory organ precursors). Consequently, even if mutants were present, their impact would be limited to these cells. Moreover, the Neur promoter has a highly complex architecture, which makes it exceedingly difficult to manipulate for experiments involving this mutation. We will address these considerations in the revised manuscript.

      The authors then found that only two of these hybrid ligands - Dl-DLL1 and Dl-JAG1 but not Dl-DLL4 or Dl-JAG2 - can be used to activate Notch in the above wing assay when Mib1 was mutant. This is consistent with the fact that the NxxN-based Neuralized Binding motif (NBM) is present in DLL1 and JAG1 only. Using the wing paradigm, the authors also show by either mutating the full NBM (NxxN) in DLL1 or changing the cryptic, "weak" NBM in DLL4 (containing NxxD sequence) into "full/strong" NxxN one that the NBM in the various Notch ligands is required and sufficient for activation of the Notch pathway.

      Overall, the fly experiments are convincing in showing diffrential activation of Notch ligands. However, no statistical analysis of the experimental variation in these studies - neither for the number of wing discs analysed per (hybrid) Notch ligand tested nor the extent of a given experimental manipulation's effect is included. We deem that if the images presented in Figures 2 and 3 are truly representative, this needs to be made explicitly clear.

      Response: We thank the reviewer for their positive evaluation of our work and for the constructive comments, which we will consider and include into the manuscript. While we have repeated all experiments with multiple flies, we acknowledge the critique regarding the absence of statistical analysis.

      To address this, we will quantify the experiments conducted in the wing imaginal discs of Drosophila. We will do that by measuring the wing field size along the dorsal-ventral axis relative to the anterior-posterior axis. We will perform statistical analysis to assess the statistical significance between experiments, using data from n=5 experiments for each sample.

      Comment on fly embryonic Delta neurogenic phenotype's rescue experiments by replacing Dl with the hybrid ligands: The authors analysed the capacity of the ICDs of the mammalian ligands to rescue the Dl phenotype in Drosophila, ie. their activation capability at the organismal level. This was achieved by generating knock-in alleles expressing the hybrid ligands in place of Dl. The notion that only NBM-containing hybrid ligands was strengthened by this analysis since it showed that only NBM-containing hybrid ligands - Dl-DLL1 and Dl-JAG1 - but not Dl-DLL4 nor Dl-JAG2 rescued the Dl neurogenic embryonic lethal phenotype. Since this experimental set-up relied on the endogoneous Drosophila E3 ligases for activating the Notch ligands, the capacity of mammalian NEUR1 and 2 proteins to complement the capacity of the hybrid ligands to activate Notch to activate these ligands was not addressed. Please comment as to the reasons for this apparent omission and if such an analyis lies beyond the scope of current work, what would be the expected results of such experiment in the light of other experiments conducted in the course of this work?

      Response: Testing whether mammalian Neurl1 and Neurl2 can replace Drosophila Neur in an endogenous setting is an intriguing question; however, it falls outside the focus of this study. Performing such an experiment would be highly challenging due to complex and not well understood architecture of Neur gene in Drosophila. Additionally, we believe it is highly unlikely that the mammalian NEURLs proteins would fully compensate for the loss of function in a Drosophila Neur mutant.

      Journal-agnostic peer review: evaluate the paper as it stands independently from potential journal fit.

      Are the claims and the conclusions supported by the data or do they require additional experiments or analyses to support them?

      Generaly yes, put please see the above comments on the absence of statistical analysis of reproducibility/ variation (if any) in fly wing disc experiments.

      **Reviewer's additional recommendations:**

      To publish in a higher-ranking journal, the co-localisation analyses of Notch ligands and its various E3 ubiquitin ligases studied probably needs to be replaced by a more rigorous, ideally FRET-based approach.

      Response: We thank the reviewer for the comment. The co-localization assay is quite a robust and functional approach, as it provides clear evidence that endocytosis into a different compartment has occurred with functional ligands, as opposed to non-functional ligands. This serves as a quantitative and rigorous indicator for functional differences between these ligand types.

      Nevertheless, we acknowledge that co-localization is not a direct measure of molecular interactions between Neurl1 and Notch ligands. To address this, as suggested by the reviewer, we will perform co-IP to show the differential interaction between Neurl1 and specific Notch ligands. Additionally, we will attempt a proximity ligation assay (PLA), which we consider to be a more direct and suitable method for detecting interactions between NEURLs and Notch ligands in this context, compared to FRET.

      Since previous studies have shown that the Notch ligands are (mostly) poly- or mono-ubiquitylated by the E3 ubiquitin ligases Mib and the NEUR proteins, ideally, this or its follow-up study would benefit from analysis of the ubiquitylation status of the various hybrid Notch ligands.

      Response: We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. The ubiquitylation pattern by Neurl1 is beyond the topic of the current manuscript.

      Also, it would be useful to show the strength of interaction between the hybrid Notch ligands and NEUR1 and NEUR2 by ising a co-immunoprecipitation based approach.

      Response: As suggested by the reviewer, we plan to perform co-IP and/or PLA to show the differential binding of NEURL1 to the different ligands. However, due to the observed toxicity of NEURL2 in our cells, it has been excluded from our assays.

      Please request additional experiments only if they are essential for the conclusions. Alternatively, ask the authors to qualify their claims as preliminary or speculative, or to remove them altogether.

      These reviewers do not strictly request any further rexperiments. However, since the mammalian NEUR2 could not be studied in cell cultures of U2OS cells due to its toxicity, we would like the auhtors to explain the choice of this cell line. Perhaps a cell line whose viability is not impaired by NEUR2 should be (or should have been) used?

      Response: The decision not to use other cell lines was based on several strict experimental requirements. The most stringent requirement was the need to generate a MIB1 knockout cell line, as MIB1 strongly activates all ligands. The availability of having MIB1 KO U2OS cells enabled these experiments.

      If you have constructive further reaching suggestions that could significantly improve the study but would open new lines of investigations, please label them as "OPTIONAL".

      As mentioned above, the NEUR2's capacity to activate the hybrid ligands in U2OS cells could not be addressed to due to its toxicity. A more optimal cell line will have to be used in follow-up studies.

      Also, these findings ultimately warrant in vivo studies using mice to definitively ascertain whether they also hold equally true there.

      Are the suggested experiments realistic in terms of time and resources? It would help if you could add an estimated time investment for substantial experiments.

      The suggested experiments are optional apart from statistical analysis of variation (if any) in the fly wing disc experiments. If there is no (apparently significant) variation in these data, this needs to explicitly stated.

      Response: We thank the reviewer for their thoughtful assessment. We will conduct the requested statistical analysis and perform some of the suggested supporting experiments as detailed in the response.

      Are the data and the methods presented in such a way that they can be reproduced?

      Generally yes, but see above about the lack of statistical data on the variation (if any).

      Are the experiments adequately replicated and statistical analysis adequate?

      Generally yes, but again, please see above about the lack of statistical data on the variation (if any).

      **Minor comments**

      Comment#1 (on the abstract and introduction):

      In the Abstract, the authors state that there are four Notch ligands in mammals (lines 21 and 22): "Thus, it is unclear how NEURL proteins regulate the four mammalian Notch ligands". In the Introduction, they correctly state that there are five Notch ligands in mammals (lines 38 and 39): „In mammals, there are five ligands, three from the Delta-like (Dll) family (Dll1, Dll3, Dll4), and two from the Jagged (Jag) family (Jag1 and Jag2)." There are five Notch ligands in mammals (Dll1, Dll3, Dll4, Jag1, Jag2), and it is obvious that the authors are very well aware of this (they state in lines 146-147): "We excluded the ICD of DLL3 since it is not a ligand capable of trans-activation of Notch" (the four ligands included were Dll1, Dll4, Jag1 and Jag2)." Therefore, a claricifaction is required in the part of Abstract (i.e lines 21 ansd 22) - did the authors mean the four mammalian Notch ligands they actually studied (i.e Dll1, Dll4, Jag1, Jag2) or is there an oversight and the auhtors actually intended to write "the five Nocth ligands in mammals".? In either case, a correction is required in this reviewer's opinion.

      Response: We are fully aware of this point, and will address it by providing clarification in the abstract as suggested.

      Specific experimental issues that are easily addressable.

      NEUR2 could not be studied in mammalian cell cultures due to its toxicity in the U2OS cell line, the one used by the authors. The use of another cell line would not be probably overly time-consuming; however, if this experiment lies outside the scope of current work, we would like to hear the authors' comment on this matter.

      Response: This is addressed above.

      Are prior studies referenced appropriately? Generally yes, but four prior studies go unmentioned: the two 2001 mouse Neur1 knock-out studies reporting no Notch-like developmental phenotype (Ruan et al, PNAS; Vollrath et al, Mol Cell Biol), the 2002 study of mouse, rat and human NEUR1 expression, subcellular localisation (Timmusk et al, Mol Cell Neuroscience) and the 2009 cell culture-based study of NEUR2's interaction with DLL1 and DLL4 (Rullinkov et al, BBRC). The non-requirement of NEUR1 and 2 proteins in mammalian developmental Notch signalling could partly be explained by the fact that NEUR1 is not highly expressed during mouse embryonic/foetal development - its expression becomes considerably more pronounced only postnatally (Timmusk et al, 2002).

      Response: We will incorporate these references into the introduction and discuss the low expression of Neurls during development as a possible reason for the non-requirement in this context.

      Are the text and figures clear and accurate?

      Yes. These reviewers find the cartoon-based explanations of the experimental set-up in each figure helpful for enhancing the manuscript's overall clarity.

      Response: We thank the reviewers for the positive feedback!

      Do you have suggestions that would help the authors improve the presentation of their data and conclusions?

      Please see above about the lack of statistical data on the variation (if any) in fly wing dic experiments and referencing of the 4 papers that are currently excluded.

      Response: These will be corrected in the revised version.

      Reviewer #3 (Significance (Required)):

      1. Significance Provide contextual information to readers (editors and researchers) about the novelty of the study, its value for the field and the communities that might be interested. The following aspects are important: General assessment: provide a summary of the strengths and limitations of the study. What are the strongest and most important aspects? What aspects of the study should be improved or could be developed? This study uses the amenability of Drosophila to study the mammalian NEUR proteins' (NEUR1 and NEUR2) activity upon Notch ligands using hybrid Notch ligands containing mammalian ICDs (intracellular domains) fused to the extracellular domain of Drosophila Delta (Dl). It confirms and extends prior studies showing that Notch ligands can be (strongly) activated only by the E3 ubiquitin ligases containing the Neuralized Binding Motif (NBM).

      Response: We respectfully disagree with the reviewer's assessment on this point. Our study is the first to demonstrate that Neurl proteins differentially activate Dll1 and Jag1, but not Dll4 and Jag2. This findings is further supported by the significance comments of the other reviewers.

      However, since this study was based on using hybrid ligands containing mammalian ICDs of Notch ligands fused to the extracellular domain of Drosophila Delta (Dl), it is somewhat artificial. While NEUR1 was also studied in mammalian cell cultures (but not NEUR2 due to its toxicity), only an in vivo study using mice expressing with systematic changes to the Notch ligands' NBM will definitively reveal whether the conclusions reached by the authors hold true in vivo in a non-heterologous system.

      Response: We firmly believe that our combined 'humanized fly' model and quantitative cell culture assay represents an innovative and rigorous approach for testing humanized proteins in in-vivo settings, without the need for extensive mouse genetics. The conclusions of our experiments should not be dismissed solely on the grounds of "not being performed in mice," as this would undermine much of current scientific research.

      Advance: compare the study to the closest related results in the literature or highlight results reported for the first time to your knowledge; does the study extend the knowledge in the field and in which way? Describe the nature of the advance and the resulting insights (for example: conceptual, technical, clinical, mechanistic, functional,...). The study's advances are chiefly mechanistic and functional since they show more definitively that the reason underlying the differing activation of four mammalian Notch ligands by mammalian NEUR1 and NEUR2 is mostly based upon the presence or otherwise of a conserved Neuralized Binding Motif, NBM. Audience: describe the type of audience ("specialised", "broad", "basic research", "translational/clinical", etc...) that will be interested or influenced by this research; how will this research be used by others; will it be of interest beyond the specific field?

      The audience for this study is the research studying the Notch signalling pathway. Since dysregulation of this pathway is implicated in a number of devastating diseases, any improved understanding of its mechanistic underpinnings could in the long run lead to better therapeutic management of diseases with significant involvement of malfunctioning Notch signalling.

      Please define your field of expertise with a few keywords to help the authors contextualize your point of view. Indicate if there are any parts of the paper that you do not have sufficient expertise to evaluate. Molecular biology, molecular neuroscience, developmental biology, cell-cell signalling, Notch signalling. All parts of the manuscript fall within our expertise.

    2. Note: This preprint has been reviewed by subject experts for Review Commons. Content has not been altered except for formatting.

      Learn more at Review Commons


      Referee #3

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      Summary

      Notch signalling is one of the major evolutionarily conserved signalling pathways involved in numerous developmental, physiological and pathological processes. Activation of the Notch receptor first requires ubiquitination of its ligands (collectively temed DSL), leading to a 'pulling force" that, upon ligand-receptor engagement, exposes Notch to intramembrane proteolysis leading to the nuclear translocation of the receptor's intracellular domain and activation of target genes with its DNA-binding co-factors.

      While both Neuralized (Neurl) and Mind bomb are the E3 ubiquitin ligases for Notch ligands required for Drosphila development, in mammals, the Neur homologues Neur1 (officially Neurl1) and Neur2 (officially Neurl1B) are dispensable for development since double Neur1/2 knock-out mice have no developmental phenotype (but both Neur homologues are involved the the memory-related functions of Notch pathway in adulthood). Rather, just one of the two mammalian Mind bomb homologues, Mib1, functions as the chief E3 ligase for Notch ligands during mammalian development as evidenced by its Notch-related knockout phenotype.

      Therefore, it has not been fully established whether and how the NEUR proteins regulate the mammalian Notch ligands. To clarify this issue, the authors assessed the capability of Drosophila Neur and mammalian NEUR1 and 2 proteins to activate the various hybrid Notch ligands (containing extracellularly Drosophila Delta and intracellularly the various Notch ligands' intracellular domains) in Drosophila wing dics and mammalian cell culture. The authors found that NEUR proteins only activate the Notch ligands containing a Neuralized binding motif, with the consensus sequence NxxN, that is present in DLL1 and JAG1, but not in DLL4 and JAG2. The authors also analyse the intracellular domains of mammalian Notch ligands DLL1, DLL4, JAG1 and JAG2 in Drosophila by generating knock-in alleles where endogenous Dl expression had been substituted for those of hybrid Notch ligands. This analysis showed that only in Dl-DLL1 and Dl-JAG1 flies but not in Dl-DLL4 and Dl-JAG" flies is the embryonic lethality rescued, the results being in agreement with the hybrid Dl-DLL experiments on wing dics reported earlier in this work. The authors conclude that their findings suggest that the activation mechanism of Notch during development differs between Drosophila (where both Neur and Mib1 are required for Notch-related developmental processes ) and mammals and that this could possibly explain the apparently lesser relevance of mammalian NEUR proteins for developmental Notch signalling.

      Evidence and clarity

      The manuscript is quite laconic but clearly written. The evidence presented by the authors, given the heterologous and in vitro nature (i.e using mammalian or hybrid Notch ligands and mammalian E3 ligases thereof in Drosophila and cell cultures) of the study is generally trustworthy but limited in the sense that it probably does not allow definitive conclusions to be drawn as to the differing nature of the action of the E3 ligases of Notch ligands in flies vs mammals in vivo.

      Reproducibility

      As will be mentioned a number of times, these reviewers would like to enquire as to the reasons for not providing a statistical analysis of variation in the fly wing disc-based experiments (where the readout was either resuce of Wg expression or induction of ectopic Wg expression). Also, while the constructs used in the study were inserted into the same genomic landing sites to achieve comparable leves of expression of the various proteins, these reviewers would like to see data on the levels of expression of NEUR1 and 2 as well as the hybrid Notch ligands.

      Major comments

      Comment on fly wing disc experiments:

      The authors study both the capability of two different mammalian E3 ubiquitin ligases, Neuralized-like 1 and 2 (mouse Neur1 and human NEUR2) to activate four different Notch receptors (DLL1 and 2, JAG1 and 2) in flies and mammalian cell culture system. In flies, they first analyse the capability of Drosophila Neur (as a positive control) and Neur1 and NEUR2 to activate the various Notch ligands (based on wingless activation as a readout) in wild-type wings (where, Mind bomb 1, or Mib1 is the only E3 ligase for Notch ligands present) and Mib1 mutant wing discs (which lack any E3 ligands of Notch receptors). The authors then test four humanised, hybrid Notch ligands (all five N ligands bar Dll3 since the latter does not transactivate the Notch receptor) - where mammalian Notch ligands' intracellular domains, or ICDs, have been attached to fly Dl (Dl-Dll1, Dl-Dll4, Dl-JAG1, Dl-JAG2) - for their capacity to mediate Mib1-dependent activation of Notch (with ectopic Wg expression in wing discs as its readout). They found that all 4 ligands can activate Nocth in wild-type wings (where Mib1 is present), with Dl-JAG2 being less effective than the other 3 hybrid ligands, implying that such hybrid, humanised ligands can be usd in studying Notch pathway activation in Drosophila (thereby constituting a mixed/heterologous experimental system). The reviewers would like to get a comment as to the reason for the weaker activity of Dl-JAG2 in this set-up?.

      Also, the reviewers would like to get a comment as to why was not a Neur mutant set-up used, only Mib1 mutant dics? The authors then found that only two of these hybrid ligands - Dl-DLL1 and Dl-JAG1 but not Dl-DLL4 or Dl-JAG2 - can be used to activate Notch in the above wing assay when Mib1 was mutant. This is consistent with the fact that the NxxN-based Neuralized Binding motif (NBM) is present in DLL1 and JAG1 only. Using the wing paradigm, the authors also show by either mutating the full NBM (NxxN) in DLL1 or changing the cryptic, "weak" NBM in DLL4 (containing NxxD sequence) into "full/strong" NxxN one that the NBM in the various Notch ligands is required and sufficient for activation of the Notch pathway.

      Overall, the fly experiments are convincing in showing diffrential activation of Notch ligands. However, no statistical analysis of the experimental variation in these studies - neither for the number of wing discs analysed per (hybrid) Notch ligand tested nor the extent of a given experimental manipulation's effect is included. We deem that if the images presented in Figures 2 and 3 are truly representative, this needs to be made explicitly clear. Comment on fly embryonic Delta neurogenic phenotype's rescue experiments by replacing Dl with the hybrid ligands: The authors analysed the capacity of the ICDs of the mammalian ligands to rescue the Dl phenotype in Drosophila, ie. their activation capability at the organismal level. This was achieved by generating knock-in alleles expressing the hybrid ligands in place of Dl. The notion that only NBM-containing hybrid ligands was strengthened by this analysis since it showed that only NBM-containing hybrid ligands - Dl-DLL1 and Dl-JAG1 - but not Dl-DLL4 nor Dl-JAG2 rescued the Dl neurogenic embryonic lethal phenotype. Since this experimental set-up relied on the endogoneous Drosophila E3 ligases for activating the Notch ligands, the capacity of mammalian NEUR1 and 2 proteins to complement the capacity of the hybrid ligands to activate Notch to activate these ligands was not addressed. Please comment as to the reasons for this apparent omission and if such an analsyis lies beyond the scope of current work, what would be the expected results of such experiment in the light of other experiments conducted in the course of this work? Journal-agnostic peer review: evaluate the paper as it stands independently from potential journal fit.

      Are the claims and the conclusions supported by the data or do they require additional experiments or analyses to support them?

      Generaly yes, put please see the above comments on the absence of statistical analysis of reproducibility/ variation (if any) in fly wing disc experiments.

      Reviewer's additional recommendations:

      To publish in a higher-ranking journal, the co-localisation analyses of Notch ligands and its various E3 ubiquitin ligases studied probably needs to be replaced by a more rigorous, ideally FRET-based approach. Since previous studies have shown that the Notch ligands are (mostly) poly- or mono-ubiquitylated by the E3 ubiquitin ligases Mib and the NEUR proteins, ideally, this or its follow-up study would benefit from analysis of the ubiquitylation status of the various hybrid Notch ligands. Also, it would be useful to show the strength of interaction between the hybrid Notch ligands and NEUR1 and NEUR2 by ising a co-immunoprecipitation based approach. Please request additional experiments only if they are essential for the conclusions. Alternatively, ask the authors to qualify their claims as preliminary or speculative, or to remove them altogether. These reviewers do not strictly request any further rexperiments. However, since the mammalian NEUR2 could not be studied in cell cultures of U2OS cells due to its toxicity, we would like the auhtors to explain the choice of this cell line. Perhaps a cell line whose viability is not impaired by NEUR2 should be (or should have been) used? If you have constructive further reaching suggestions that could significantly improve the study but would open new lines of investigations, please label them as "OPTIONAL". As mentioned above, the NEUR2's capacity to activate the hybrid ligands in U2OS cells could not be addressed to due to its toxicity. A more optimal cell line will have to be used in follow-up studies. Also, these findings ultimately warrant in vivo studies using mice to definitively ascertain whether they also hold equally true there.

      Are the suggested experiments realistic in terms of time and resources? It would help if you could add an estimated time investment for substantial experiments.

      The suggested experiments are optional apart from statistical analysis of variation (if any) in the fly wing disc experiments. If there is no (apparently significant) variation in these data, this needs to explicitly stated.

      Are the data and the methods presented in such a way that they can be reproduced?

      Generally yes, but see above about the lack of statistical data on the variation (if any).

      Are the experiments adequately replicated and statistical analysis adequate?

      Generally yes, but again, please see above about the lack of statistical data on the variation (if any).

      Minor comments

      Comment#1 (on the abstract and introduction):

      In the Abstract, the authors state that there are four Notch ligands in mammals (lines 21 and 22):<br /> "Thus, it is unclear how NEURL proteins regulate the four mammalian Notch ligands". In the Introduction, they correctly state that there are five Notch ligands in mammals (lines 38 and 39): „In mammals, there are five ligands, three from the Delta-like (Dll) family (Dll1, Dll3, Dll4), and two from the Jagged (Jag) family (Jag1 and Jag2)." There are five Notch ligands in mammals (Dll1, Dll3, Dll4, Jag1, Jag2), and it is obvious that the authors are very well aware of this (they state in lines 146-147): "We excluded the ICD of DLL3 since it is not a ligand capable of trans-activation of Notch" (the four ligands included were Dll1, Dll4, Jag1 and Jag2)." Therefore, a claricifaction is required in the part of Abstract (i.e lines 21 ansd 22) - did the authors mean the four mammalian Notch ligands they actually studied (i.e Dll1, Dll4, Jag1, Jag2) or is there an oversight and the auhtors actually intended to write "the five Nocth ligands in mammals".? In either case, a correction is required in this reviewer's opinion.

      Specific experimental issues that are easily addressable.

      NEUR2 could not be studied in mammalian cell cultures due to its toxicity in the U2OS cell line, the one used by the authors. The use of another cell line would not be probably overly time-consuming; however, if this experiment lies outside the scope of current work, we would like to hear the authors' comment on this matter. Are prior studies referenced appropriately? Generally yes, but four prior studies go unmentioned: the two 2001 mouse Neur1 knock-out studies reporting no Notch-like developmental phenotype (Ruan et al, PNAS; Vollrath et al, Mol Cell Biol), the 2002 study of mouse, rat and human NEUR1 expression, subcellular localisation (Timmusk et al, Mol Cell Neuroscience) and the 2009 cell culture-based study of NEUR2's interaction with DLL1 and DLL4 (Rullinkov et al, BBRC). The non-requirement of NEUR1 and 2 proteins in mammalian developmental Notch signalling could partly be explained by the fact that NEUR1 is not highly expressed during mouse embryonic/foetal development - its expression becomes considerably more pronounced only postnatally (Timmusk et al, 2002).

      Are the text and figures clear and accurate?

      Yes. These reviewers find the cartoon-based explanations of the experimental set-up in each figure helpful for enhancing the manuscript's overall clarity.

      Do you have suggestions that would help the authors improve the presentation of their data and conclusions?

      Please see above about the lack of statistical data on the variation (if any) in fly wing dic experiments and referencing of the 4 papers that are currently excluded.

      Significance

      Provide contextual information to readers (editors and researchers) about the novelty of the study, its value for the field and the communities that might be interested. The following aspects are important:

      General assessment: provide a summary of the strengths and limitations of the study. What are the strongest and most important aspects? What aspects of the study should be improved or could be developed? This study uses the amenability of Drosophila to study the mammalian NEUR proteins' (NEUR1 and NEUR2) activity upon Notch ligands using hybrid Notch ligands containing mammalian ICDs (intracellular domains) fused to the extracellular domain of Drosophila Delta (Dl). It confirms and extends prior studies showing that Notch ligands can be (strongly) activated only by the E3 ubiquitin ligases containing the Neuralized Binding Motif (NBM). However, since this study was based on using hybrid ligands containing mammalian ICDs of Notch ligands fused to the extracellular domain of Drosophila Delta (Dl), it is somewhat artificial. While NEUR1 was also studied in mammalian cell cultures (but not NEUR2 due to its toxicity), only an in vivo study using mice expressing with systematic changes to the Notch ligands' NBM will definitively reveal whether the conclusions reached by the authors hold true in vivo in a non-heterologous system.

      Advance: compare the study to the closest related results in the literature or highlight results reported for the first time to your knowledge; does the study extend the knowledge in the field and in which way? Describe the nature of the advance and the resulting insights (for example: conceptual, technical, clinical, mechanistic, functional,...). The study's advances are chiefly mechanistic and functional since they show more definitively that the reason underlying the differing activation of four mammalian Notch ligands by mammalian NEUR1 and NEUR2 is mostly based upon the presence or otherwise of a conserved Neuralized Binding Motif, NBM.

      Audience: describe the type of audience ("specialised", "broad", "basic research", "translational/clinical", etc...) that will be interested or influenced by this research; how will this research be used by others; will it be of interest beyond the specific field? The audience for this study is the research studying the Notch signalling pathway. Since dysregulation of this pathway is implicated in a number of devastating diseases, any improved understanding of its mechanistic underpinnings could in the long run lead to better therapeutic management of diseases with significant involvement of malfunctioning Notch signalling.

      Please define your field of expertise with a few keywords to help the authors contextualize your point of view. Indicate if there are any parts of the paper that you do not have sufficient expertise to evaluate. Molecular biology, molecular neuroscience, developmental biology, cell-cell signalling, Notch signalling. All parts of the manuscript fall within our expertise.

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study by Lo et al. seeks to explain the cellular defects underlying the brain phenotypes of Lowe syndrome (LS). There have been limited studies on this topic and hence this is a timely study.

      Strengths:

      Studies such as these can contribute to an understanding of the cellular and developmental mechanisms of brain disorders.

      Weaknesses:

      This study by Lo et al. seeks to explain the cellular defects underlying the brain phenotypes of Lowe syndrome (LS). There have been limited studies on this topic and hence this is a timely study.

      The study uses two models: (1) an LS IOB knockout mouse and (2) neurons derived from iPSC lines from LS patients. These two models are used to present three separate findings: (1) altered mitochondria function, (2) altered numbers of neurons and glia in both models, and (3) some evidence of altered Sonic Hedgehog signaling projected as a defect in cilia.

      Conceptually, there are some problems of serious concern which must be carefully considered:<br /> (1) The IOB mouse was very extensively phenotyped when it was generated by Festa et.al HMM, 2019. It does not have any obvious phenotypes of brain deficits although the studies in this paper were very detailed indeed.<br /> (2) Reduced brain size is reported as a phenotype of the IOB mouse in this study. Yet over the many clinical studies of LS published over the years, altered brain size has not been noted, either in clinical examination or in the many MRI reports of LS patients.

      While reading through these results it is striking that the link between the three reported phenotypes is at least tenuous, and in fact may not exist at all. The link between mitochondria and neurogenesis is based on a single paper that has been cited incorrectly and out of context. There is no evidence presented for a link between the Shh signaling defect reported and the mitochondrial phenotype.

      General comments

      (1) The preparation of the manuscript requires improvement. There are many errors in the presentation of data.<br /> (2) The use of references needs to be re-considered. Sometimes a reference is used when in fact the results included in that paper are the opposite of what the authors intend.<br /> (3) The authors conclude the paper by claiming that mitochondrial dysfunction and impairments of the ciliary SHH contribute to abnormal neuronal differentiation in LS, but the mechanism by which this sequence of events might happen hasn't been shown.

      Final comments:

      (1) Phenotype of increased astrocytes:<br /> The phenotype of increased astrocytes in both the IOB mouse brain or iPSC-derived cultures iN cells requires clarification as one of the markers used as an astrocyte marker, BRN2, is commonly used as a neuronal marker. As LS is a neurodevelopmental disorder, and the phenotype in question is related to differentiation, it is crucial to shed light on the developmental timeline in which this phenotype is seen in the mouse brain.

      (2) Ciliary homeostasis:<br /> Mitochondrial dysfunction in astrocytes has been shown to induce a ciliogenic program. However, almost the opposite is shown in this paper, with regards to ciliation. Morphology of the cilia was not assessed either, which is an important feature of ciliary homeostasis. The improper ciliary homeostasis here appears to be the improper Shh signalling, which has not been shown to be related to mitochondrial dysfunction. This leaves one wondering how exactly the different phenotypes shown in this paper are connected.

      (3) This paper lacks a clear mechanistic approach. While the data validates the 3 broad phenotypes mentioned, there is a lack of connection between these phenotypes or an answer to why these phenotypes appear. While the discussion attempts to shed light on this by referencing previous studies, some of the referenced studies show contradicting results. Hence, it would be beneficial to clarify these gaps with further experiments and address the larger question of the connection between the mitochondria, Shh signalling, and astrocyte formation.

      (4) Most importantly, there is no mention of how the loss of OCRL, a 5-phosphatase enzyme, results in the appearance of the mentioned phenotypes. Since there are multiple studies in the field of Lowe Syndrome that shed light on the various functions of OCRL, both catalytic and non-catalytic, it is important to address the role of OCRL in resulting in these phenotypes.

      (5) There are numerous errors in the qPCR experiments performed with regard to the genes that were assayed. The genes mentioned in the text section do not match those indicated in the graphs or legends. This takes away the confidence of the reader in this data.

    1. Disease: Von Willebrand Disease (VWD)

      Patient(s): Found in 2 families

      Variant: VWF NM_000552.5: c.2311A>G, p.(M771V Homozygous variant in exon 18 (VWF D' domain; 8 residues down from proteolytic VWFpp furin cleavage site)

      Family: In family 1 there are 4 homozygous patients (2 male and 2 female), and one heterozygous patient (1 female). The affected females are denoted as person 1 and person 4 and the affected males are person 2 and person 3. There are three WT family members (1 female and 2 male), grandparents of these members are of unknown genotype including a daughter of an affected female and a WT male. Note here that in the family a p.R2663P variant has co-segregated with the above-mentioned variant but is not suspected to be the pathogenic driver of resulting bleeding tendency.

      In family 2 the parents of the homozygous affected male are of unknown genotype. The affected male is denoted as person 7.

      Phenotypes: Person 1- nose bleed, skin bleed, GI bleeding, oral cavity bleeds, Menorrhagia, muscle bleeding, and joint bleeding. Receives on-demand treatment for bleeding.

      Person 2-Nose bleed, skin bleed, bleeding from small wounds, oral cavity bleeds, bleeding after tooth extraction, joint bleeding. Received prophylactic treatment, reduced to on-demand treatment after a few years.

      Person 3-Nose bleed, skin bleed, oral cavity bleeds, bleeding after tooth extraction, muscle bleeding. Receives on-demand treatment for bleeding phenotype.

      Person 4- Nose bleed, bleeding from small wounds, oral cavity bleed, bleeding after tooth extraction, joint bleeding. Received prophylactic treatment that was increased after her menarche.

      Person 7- Nose bleed, oral cavity bleeds, bleeding after surgery or trauma, joint bleeding. Previously on prophylaxis, now managing bleeding with on-demand treatment.

      Note that both the p.R2663P co-segregated variant and p.M771V variant are reported in NCBI dbSNP database but functional effect not yet established.

      NGS confirmed the genotype of all study participants.

    1. Voici un sommaire minuté des temps forts de la transcription :

      • 0:38 - Introduction et salutations
      • 1:03 - Sujet de la conférence : "Le scientifiquement prouvé" et "l'appel au complot", deux facettes d'une même méprise épistémique.
      • 1:14 - Domaine de l'épistémologie et philosophie des sciences.
      • 1:35 - Contexte de la rhétorique antagoniste entre "le scientifiquement prouvé" et "l'appel au complot".
      • 2:42 - Objectif de la conférence : démontrer l'erreur épistémique commune aux deux extrêmes.
      • 3:17 - Plan de la conférence en 4 parties.
      • 3:55 - Cas d'étude : la découverte des satellites de Jupiter par Galilée en 5 étapes.
      • 4:50 - Contexte de l'astronomie et cosmologie aristotélicienne.
      • 6:20 - Importance du contexte pour fixer le champ des contre-possibilités à l'hypothèse de Galilée.
      • 7:24 - Processus épistémique d'élimination des possibilités d'erreur.
      • 11:35 - Définition de la connaissance comme processus d'élimination des contre-possibilités pertinentes au contexte.
      • 12:55 - Présentation de la métathéorie contextuelle de la connaissance de David Lewis.
      • 15:45 - Définition du "scientifiquement prouvé" et de "l'appel au complot".
      • 18:50 - L'erreur épistémique commune aux deux faces : la nécessité d'éliminer TOUTES les contre-possibilités ?
      • 21:57 - Appel aux communicateurs de la science à ne pas présenter la science comme infaillible.

      Briefing Doc: Le scientifiquement prouvé et l'appel au complot, les deux faces d'une erreur épistémique Source: Conférence d'Olivier Sartenaer, professeur de philosophie des sciences, REC Toulouse.

      Lien: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yt8WjvthM_0

      Thème principal: La conférence explore une erreur épistémologique commune aux arguments du « scientifiquement prouvé » et de l'« appel au complot ».

      Idées et faits importants:

      L'erreur épistémique: Croire que la connaissance scientifique nécessite l'élimination de toutes les contre-possibilités, qu'elles soient pertinentes ou non au contexte donné. Le "scientifiquement prouvé" prétend atteindre une vérité absolue en éliminant toutes les objections, même les plus improbables. L'appel au complot exploite cette faille en introduisant des contre-possibilités irrationnelles, sapant ainsi la validité de la connaissance scientifique. Le cas de Galilée: Sartenaer utilise la découverte des satellites de Jupiter par Galilée pour illustrer le processus de construction de la connaissance scientifique. Galilée a dû réfuter les contre-possibilités pertinentes au contexte de l'époque (cosmologie aristotélicienne), sans se soucier de complots imaginaires. Citation: « Connaître c'est éliminer les contre possibilités pertinentes et pertinentes au regard de quoi du contexte. » (12:35) Théorie contextualiste de la connaissance: Inspirée par David Lewis, cette théorie souligne l'importance du contexte pour déterminer la validité d'une affirmation de connaissance. Ce qui est considéré comme "connu" peut varier selon le contexte et les normes de vérité appliquées. Exemple: Savoir qu'on a deux mains est une évidence dans un contexte "mondain", mais devient sujet à caution dans un contexte philosophique qui introduit des scénarios sceptiques ("cerveau dans une cuve"). Conséquences pour la communication scientifique: La rhétorique du "scientifiquement prouvé" est contre-productive car elle renforce le complotisme. Citation: « Aussitôt que vous considérez la science comme infaillible vous ouvrez la porte à l'argument sceptique [...] vous tombez dans le piège cartésien. » (22:20) Les communicateurs scientifiques doivent insister sur le caractère faillible de la science, capable d'évoluer et de se corriger au fil des découvertes. Conclusion: La conférence met en garde contre une vision dogmatique de la science et plaide pour une communication plus nuancée qui reconnaisse ses limites tout en affirmant sa robustesse.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews: 

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      This study presents useful insights into the in vivo dynamics of insulin-producing cells (IPCs), key cells regulating energy homeostasis across the animal kingdom. The authors provide compelling evidence using adult Drosophila melanogaster that IPCs, unlike neighboring DH44 cells, do not respond to glucose directly, but that glucose can indirectly regulate IPC activity after ingestion supporting an incretin-like mechanism in flies, similar to mammals. The authors link the decreased activity of IPCs to hyperactivity observed in starved flies, a locomotive behavior aimed at increasing food search. 

      Furthermore, there is supporting evidence in the paper that IPCs receive inhibitory inputs from Dh44 neurons, which are linked to increased locomotor activity. However, although the electrophysiological data underlying the dynamics of IPCs in vivo is compelling, the link between IPCs and other potential elements of the circuitry (e.g. octopaminergic neurons) regulating locomotive behaviors is not clear and would benefit from more rigorous approaches. 

      This paper is of interest to cell biologists and electrophysiologists, and in particular to scientists aiming to understand circuit dynamics pertaining to internal state-linked behaviors competing with the feeding state, shown here to be primarily controlled by the IPCs. 

      Strengths: 

      (1) By using whole-cell patch clamp recording, the authors convincingly showed the activity pattern of IPCs and neighboring DH44 neurons under different feeding states. 

      (2) The paper provides compelling evidence that IPCs are not directly and acutely activated by glucose, but rather through a post-ingestive incretin-like mechanism. In addition, the authors show that Dh44 neurons located adjacent to the IPCs respond to bath application of glucose contrary to the IPCs. 

      (3) The paper provides useful data on the firing pattern of 2 key cell populations regulating foodrelated brain function and behavior, IPCs and Dh44 neurons, results which are useful to understand their in vivo function. 

      Weaknesses: 

      (1) The term nutritional state generally refers to the nutrients which are beneficial to the animal. In Figure 1, the authors showed that IPCs respond to glucose but not proteins. To validate the term nutritional state the authors could test the effect of a non-nutritive sugar (e.g. D-arabinose or L-Glucose) on the post-ingestive physiological responses of the IPCs.

      We thank the referee for this insightful comment. Following their suggestion, we included two new experimental data sets, which we added to Figure 1: We show that IPCs do not respond to the non-nutritive sugar D-arabinose (Figure 1H). In order to further expand this data set and our conclusions, we additionally show that IPCs do respond to fructose – a second nutritive sugar in addition to glucose (Figure 1H). Together, these data sets permit the conclusion that IPCs are sensitive to the ingestion of nutritive sugars, and do not respond to ingestion of nonnutritive sugars or high protein diets. Thus, we validate the term nutritional state.

      (2) It is difficult to grasp the main message from the figures in the result section as some figures have several results subsections referring to different points the authors want to make. The key results of a figure will be easier to understand if they are summarized in one section of the results. Alternatively, a figure can be split into 2 figures if there are several key messages in those figures, e.g. Figures 2 and 3.  

      We appreciate this suggestion and have made several changes to our manuscript to add more clarity. Among other things, we have changed the order of data presentation in Figure 2, as suggested by the referee below, where we now start with the IPC activation data rather than the OAN activation. We also swapped the order of data presentation and split Figure S1 into Figures S1 & S2. Moreover, we re-arranged the panel order in supplementary figure S4. This significantly improved the flow of the results section. Since the figures the referee refers to contain comparative data, for example between diets (Figure 1) or neuron types (Figure 2), we prefer to keep these data sets together. However, we have carefully revised the results section to more clearly relate our statements to individual figure panels.

      (3) The prime investigation of the paper is about the physiological response and locomotive behavioral readout linked to IPCs. The authors do not show a link between OANs and IPCs in terms of functional or behavioral readouts. In Figure 2 the authors first start with stating a link between OAN neurons and locomotion changes resulting from internal feeding states. The flow of the paper would be better if the authors focused on the effect of optogenetic activation of IPCs under different feeding states and their impact on fly locomotion. If the experiments done on optogenetic activation of OANs were to validate the experimental approach the data on OAN neurons is better suited for the supplement without the need of a subsection in the result section on the OANs.  

      We agree with the reviewer’s suggestion and switched the order of the figure panels and text to aid the flow of the manuscript. We now show and discuss the IPC activation data first (Figure 2C-H) and OAN activation afterwards (Figure 2I-K). We did keep the OAN data in the main document, though, since that facilitates comparisons between the small effects of IPC activation and the large, well-established effects of OAN activation.

      (4) Figure 2F shows that optogenetic activation of IPCs in fed flies does not influence their locomotor output. In the text, the conclusion linked to Figure 2F-H states that IPC activation reduces starvation-induced hyperactivity which is a statement more suited to Figure 2I-K. 

      We edited the text accordingly.

      (5) The authors show activation of Dh44 neurons leads to hyperpolarisation of the IPCs. What is the functional link between non-PI Dh44 neurons and the IPCs? Do IPCs express DH44R or is DH44 required for this effect on IPCs? Investigating a potential synaptic or peptidergic link between DH44 neurons and IPCs and its effect on behavior would benefit the paper, as it is so far not well connected. 

      Although we have not performed any experiments dedicated to investigating the functional link between DH44Ns outside the PI and the IPCs in this study, there are two lines of evidence supporting that this connection is relatively direct. First, IPCs do express DH44R1 & R2, as we show in a parallel study in eLife (Held M, et al. ‘Aminergic and peptidergic modulation of Insulin-Producing Cells in Drosophila’. eLife. 2024;13. doi:10.7554/ELIFE.99548.1). Second, we performed functional connectivity experiments using a Leucokinin (LK) driver line in that paper. This driver line labels two pairs of non-PI DH44Ns in the VNC, which are DH44 and LK positive (Zandawala et al 2018). Activating that line leads to inhibition of IPCs, similar to the effect we observed here for DH44N activation. These two lines of evidence suggest that there could be a direct peptidergic connection between DH44+ neurons and IPCs. We have added a paragraph mentioning these experiments to our discussion:

      ‘Notably, the DH44<sup>PI</sup>Ns express the DH44 peptide, as confirmed by anti-DH44 stainings(100). This also applies to a large fraction of neurons labelled in the broad DH44 driver line(100). However, a subset of neurons labelled in the broad line did not exhibit DH44 immunoreactivity(100), and might therefore not actually express the DH44 peptide. Hence, the inhibition of IPCs could be driven by neurons in the DH44 driver line that do not express DH44. A strong candidate for the inhibition are LK and DH44-positive neurons, which are labelled by the broad line(76). In a parallel study, we showed that LK-expressing neurons strongly inhibit IPCs(30), similar to the broad DH44 line used here. Furthermore, evidence from single-nucleus transcriptomic analysis shows that IPCs express DH44-R1 and DH44-R2 receptors(30). Therefore, it is possible that DH44Ns communicate with IPCs through a direct peptidergic connection. Notably, the inhibitory effect of non-PI DH44Ns on IPCs was very strong and fast, suggesting that a connection via classical synapses is more likely. Regardless, our results show that the glucose sensing DH44<sup>PI</sup>Ns and IPCs act independently of each other.’

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      In this study, Bisen et al. characterized the state-dependency of insulin-producing cells in the brain of *Drosophila melanogaster*. They successfully established that IPC activity is modulated by the nutritional state and age of the animal. Interestingly, they demonstrate that IPCs respond to the ingestion of glucose, rather than to perfusion with it, an observation reminiscent of the incretin effect in mammals. The study is well conducted and presented and the experimental data convincingly support the claims made. 

      Strengths: 

      The study makes great use of the tools available in *Drosophila* research, demonstrating the effect that starvation and subsequent refeeding have on the physiological activity of IPCs as well as on the behavior of flies to then establish causal links by making use of optogenetic tools. 

      It is particularly nice to see how the authors put their findings in context to published research and use for example TDC2 neuron activation or DH44 activity to establish baselines to relate their data to. 

      Weaknesses: 

      I find the inability of SD to rescue the IPC starvation effect in Figure 1G&H surprising, given that the fully fed flies were raised and kept on that exact diet. Did the authors try to refeed flies with SD for longer than 24 hours? I understand that at some point the age effect would also kick in and counteract potential IPC activity rescue. I think the manuscript would benefit if the authors could indicate the exact age of the SD refed flies and expand a bit on the discussion of that point.  

      We have expanded the first paragraph of our discussion to tackle these questions, in particular the potential effect of aging, as suggested by the referee. We now also indicate the exact age of the flies. Moreover, we have conducted additional experiments in which we added either glucose or arabinose to our standard diet (Figure 1H). As we would have expected based on our hypothesis that the glucose concentration in our standard diet was too low to cause an increase in IPC activity after starvation, we find that feeding standard diet plus glucose increases IPC activity to the same level as glucose only, and that adding arabinose to the standard diet does not lead to increased IPC activity after starvation (Figure 1H).

      The incretin-like effect is exciting and it will be interesting in the future to find out what might be the signal mediating this effect. It is interesting that IPCs in explants seem to be responsive to glucose. I think it would help if the authors could briefly discuss possible sources for the different findings between these in fact very different preparations. Could the the absence of the inhibitory DH44 feedback in the *ex-vivo* recordings for example play a role? 

      We thank the referee for this interesting point and expanded our discussion accordingly. We included that, in particular in brain explants without a VNC, the inhibitory connection we describe might be absent, as the referee suggested: ‘Previous ex vivo studies suggested that IPCs, like pancreatic beta cells, sense glucose cell-autonomously(23,24). Consistent with this, we observed an increase in IPC activity after the ingestion of glucose (Figure 2B). However, IPC activity did not increase during the perfusion of glucose directly over the brain. Importantly, the fly preparations were kept alive for several hours allowing the glucose-rich saline to enter circulation and reach all body parts. Several factors may explain the difference between ex vivo and in vivo preparations. First, in ex vivo studies, certain regulatory feedback mechanisms present in vivo could be absent. For example, the strong inhibitory input IPCs receive from DH44Ns we found would likely be absent in brain explants without a VNC. A lack of inhibitory feedback might allow for more direct glucose sensing by IPCs ex vivo, whereas in vivo, the IPC response could be suppressed by more complex systemic feedback. Second, we attempted to use the intracellular saline formulation employed in a previous ex vivo study44. However, we observed that IPCs depolarized quickly using this saline, leading to unstable recordings that did not meet our quality standards for in vivo experiments. Another possible explanation for the lack of an effect of glucose might have been that the dominant circulating sugar in flies is trehalose(70,71) which is derived from glucose. When we extended our experiments, we found that trehalose perfusion did not affect IPC activity either, strengthening the idea that IPCs do not directly sense changes in hemolymph sugar levels. Therefore, our findings suggest that, similar to mammals, IPC activity and hence, insulin release, is not simply modulated by hemolymph sugar concentration in Drosophila.’ 

      The incretin-like effect the authors observed seems to start only after 5h which seems longer than in mammals where, as far as I know, insulin peaks around 1h. Do the authors have ideas on how this timescale relates to ingestion and glucose dynamics in flies? 

      We have now included the following section in the discussion to explicitly address the question of different activity dynamics in flies and mammals, but also the limitations of our electrophysiological approach in this regard: ‘We observed that IPC activity increased over a timescale of hours, which is longer compared to the fast insulin response in mammals, where insulin typically peaks within an hour of feeding(97). In flies, insulin levels rise within minutes of refeeding, followed by a drop after 30 min(20). Our experimental techniques limit our ability to capture these fast initial dynamics, since the preparation for intracellular recordings requires tens of minutes, so that we typically recorded IPC activity at least 20 min after the last food ingestion. Notably, studies in fasted mammals have shown that insulin peaks within minutes of refeeding, followed by a rapid decline, with levels stabilizing as feeding continues(98,99). We speculate a similar dynamic could be present in flies, but with our approach, we capture the steady-state reached tens of minutes after food ingestion rather than a potential initial peak.’ 

      The authors mention "a decrease in the FV of IPC-activated starved flies even before the first optogenetic stimulation (Figure 2I),". Could this be addressed by running an experiment in darkness, only using the IR illumination of their behavioral assay? 

      We thank the referee for pointing out this unexpected result. We discuss this in more detail in the new version of our manuscript and expand on the reasons for not performing these optogenetic activation experiments in the dark: First, the red LED required to activate CsChrimson triggers strong startle responses in dark-adapted flies, which mask other behavioral effects, in particular subtle ones such as those observed for IPCs. The startle response is much reduced when performing experiments under low background light conditions. Second, flies, at least in our hands, do not exhibit robust foraging behavior or starvation-induced hyperactivity in the dark, which is critical for our behavioral experiments. However, we also explain in our discussion that we believe the effect of background illumination is relatively small, since flies expressing CsChrimson in OANs or DH44Ns show comparable activity levels to controls. Hence, a part of this effect is likely attributable to leak currents induced by CsChrimson expression. We would like to point out though that we are careful in our description of the IPC effect on behavior, and focus on the fact that it is considerably smaller than the effects of other modulatory neurons (DH44Ns and OANs).

      The authors show an inhibitory effect of DH44 neuron activation on IPC activity. They further demonstrate that DH44PI neurons are not the ones driving this and thus conclude that "...IPCs are inhibited by DH44Ns outside the PI.". As the authors mentioned the broad expression of the DH44-Gal4 line, can they be sure that the cells labeled outside the PI are actually DH44+? If so they should state this more clearly, if not they should adapt the discussion accordingly.   

      We have substantially added to our discussion of this point, according to the referee’s great suggestion. In short, the broad line includes neurons that are DH44 positive and neurons that are not: ‘Notably, the DH44<sup>PI</sup>Ns express the DH44 peptide, as confirmed by anti-DH44 stainings(100). This also applies to a large fraction of neurons labelled in the broad DH44 driver line(100). However, a subset of neurons labelled in the broad line did not exhibit DH44 immunoreactivity(100), and might therefore not actually express the DH44 peptide. Hence, the inhibition of IPCs could be driven by neurons in the DH44 driver line that do not express DH44.’

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review): 

      Although insulin release is essential in the control of metabolism, adjusted to nutritional state, and plays major roles in normal brain function as well as in aging and disease, our knowledge about the activity of insulin-producing (and releasing) cells (IPCs) in vivo is limited. 

      In this technically demanding study, IPC activity is studied in the Drosophila model system by fine in vivo patch clamp recordings with parallel behavioral analyses and optogenetic manipulation. 

      The data indicate that IPC activity is increased with a slow time course after feeding a high-glucose diet. By contrast, IPC activity is not directly affected by increasing blood glucose levels. This is reminiscent of the incretin effect known from vertebrates and points to a conserved mechanism in insulin production and release upon sugar feeding. 

      Moreover, the data confirm earlier studies that nutritional state strongly affects locomotion. Surprisingly, IPC activity makes only a negligible contribution to this. Instead, other modulatory neurons that are directly sensitive to blood glucose levels strongly affect modulation. Together, these data indicate a network of multiple parallel and interacting neuronal layers to orchestrate the physiological, metabolic, and behavioral responses to nutritional state. Together with the data from a previous study, this work sets the stage to dissect the architecture and function of this network. 

      Strengths: 

      State-of-the-art current clamp in situ patch clamp recordings in behaving animals are a demanding but powerful method to provide novel insight into the interplay of nutritional state, IPC activity, and locomotion. The patch clamp recordings and the parallel behavioral analyses are of high quality, as are the optogenetic manipulations. The data showing that starvation silences IPC activity in young flies (younger than 1 week) are compelling. The evidence for the claim that locomotor activity is not increased upon IPC activity but upon the activity of other blood glucose-sensitive modulatory neurons (Dh44) is strong. The study provides a great system to experimentally dissect the interplay of insulin production and release with metabolism, physiology, and behavior. 

      Weaknesses: 

      Neither the mechanisms underlying the incretin effect, nor the network to orchestrate physiological, metabolic, and behavioral responses to nutritional state have been fully uncovered. Without additional controls, some of the conclusions would require significant downtoning. Controls are required to exclude the possibility that IPCs sense other blood sugars than glucose. The claim that IPC activity is controlled by the nutritional state would require that starvation-induced IPC silencing in young animals can be recovered by feeding a normal diet. At current firing in starvation, silenced IPCs can only be induced by feeding a high-glucose diet that lacks other important ingredients and reduces vitality. Therefore, feasible controls are needed to exclude that diet-induced increases in IPC firing rate are caused by stress rather than nutritional changes in normal ranges. The finding that refeeding starved flies with a standard diet had no effect on IPC activity but a strong effect on the locomotor activity of starved flies contradicts the statement that locomotor activity is affected by the same dietary manipulations that affect IPC activity. The compelling finding that starvation induces IPC firing would benefit from determining the time course of the effect. The finding that IPCs are not active in fed animals older than 1 week is surprising and should be further validated. 

      We thank the referee for the thoughtful and constructive criticism of our experiments and conclusions. Below, we lay out how we tackled the individual points raised by the referee.

      (1) ‘Controls are required to exclude the possibility that IPCs sense other blood sugars than glucose.’  

      To address this point, we conducted experiments in which we perfused trehalose (Figure 3B), the main circulating hemolymph sugar in Drosophila and other insects. Our results clearly show that trehalose does not affect IPC activity upon perfusion, confirming our statements that IPCs do not sense key blood sugars directly.

      (2) ‘Feasible controls are needed to exclude that diet-induced increases in IPC firing rate are caused by stress rather than nutritional changes in normal ranges’. 

      We agree with the referee that this point was not completely fleshed out in our first submission. We have now performed additional experiments in which we added glucose (and fructose) to our standard diet (Figure 1H). Flies feeding on this diet received all necessary nutrients but still experienced high concentrations of sugars. The effects of high glucose in a standard diet background were indistinguishable from those of high glucose in agarose, confirming that the IPCs respond to sugar rather than stress. Another important observation in this context is that IPCs in flies kept on a high protein diet exhibited much lower spike rates than flies exhibiting the high glucose diet, even though they had a much shorter lifespan and therefore, presumably, experienced much higher stress levels (Figure 1H, Figure S1). These observations underline that stress is certainly not the primary factor here.

      (3) ‘The finding that refeeding starved flies with a standard diet had no effect on IPC activity but a strong effect on the locomotor activity of starved flies contradicts the statement that locomotor activity is affected by the same dietary manipulations that affect IPC activity.’

      We have revised the respective section of the results and discussion accordingly and are more careful and clearer in our interpretation of this behavioral dataset: ‘These results show that the locomotor activity was affected by the same dietary manipulations that had strong effects on IPC activity. However, IPC activity changes alone cannot explain the modulation of starvation-induced hyperactivity. On the one hand, high-glucose diets which drove the highest activity in IPCs were not sufficient to reduce locomotor activity back to baseline levels. On the other hand, refeeding flies with SD did not revert the effects of starvation on IPC activity (Figure 1H), but it was sufficient to reduce the locomotor activity below baseline levels (Figure 2B). This suggests that the modulation of starvation-induced hyperactivity is achieved by multiple modulatory systems acting in parallel.’

      (4) ‘The compelling finding that starvation induces IPC firing would benefit from determining the time course of the effect.’

      We followed the referee’s excellent suggestion and determined the time course of the starvation effect in three timesteps, similar to the experiments we did for refeeding (Figure 1G). In addition, we now also quantify the number of active IPCs (i.e., IPCs that fired at least one action potential during our five-minute analysis window), which further illustrates the dynamics of the starvation and refeeding effects. We find that the starvation effect is graded, and that IPC activity decreases with increasing starvation duration.

      (5) ‘The finding that IPCs are not active in fed animals older than 1 week is surprising and should be further validated.’

      To address the referee’s comment, we have added 14 new IPC recordings from flies in the 6–26-day range, such that we now have recordings from 9-14 IPCs for each age range (Figure S2B). They confirmed our previous analysis and strengthened the finding that IPC activity dramatically decreases after 8 days (on our standard diet). The total number of IPCs in this supplementary dataset was thus increased from 34 to 48.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      (1) Do IPCs respond to glucose specifically after ingestion or generally to any other nutritive sugars? To tackle this question the IPC responses in starved flies can be recorded after refeeding flies with other nutritive sugars (fructose, sucrose). 

      To address this important question, we have performed additional experiments in which we refed starved flies with fructose, as a nutritive sugar, and arabinose, as a non-nutritive sugar. As expected, IPCs responded to fructose but not arabinose and hence nutritive sugars in general. We describe and discuss these key results in the new version of our manuscript.

      (2) In Figure 2, the x and y axes are not annotated on all subfigures, which might help improve clarity. 

      We have annotated the subfigures as requested.

      (3) In the discussion on page 9 ("...we observed an increase in IPC activity after the ingestion of glucose (Figure 2B)."), the authors refer to Figure 2B instead of 3C.

      We have fixed this oversight.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      Introduction 

      I think it could be helpful for the reader if you would briefly state the number of IPCs and whether you are targeting all of them with Dilp2-Gal4. 

      We included the numbers according to the suggestion. 14 IPCs are labeled in the driver line, and this is the number of IPCs commonly assumed to be present in the PI.

      Figures 

      In some Figures (for example 1D & E) the authors state the number of IPCs recorded (N) but not the number of animals used (n). This should be stated as the data from within an animal are dependent and might give insights about IPC heterogeneity. 

      We have compiled tables for the supplementary material (Tables S5 & S6) in which we state the number of IPCs and DH44<sup>PI</sup>Ns recorded and the number of different flies for each figure panel. We have recorded an average of 1.4 IPCs per fly (217 IPCs from 160 flies). We therefore expect the bias introduced by individual flies to be rather small. However, in our parallel study, we specifically investigate the heterogeneity of IPCs by maximizing the number of IPCs recorded per fly (Held M, et al. ‘Aminergic and peptidergic modulation of Insulin-Producing Cells in Drosophila’. eLife. 2024;13. doi:10.7554/ELIFE.99548.1). In the case of DH44PINs, we recorded 24 neurons in 21 flies – 1.1 neurons per fly.

      - Figure 3D: There is some white visible among the cell bodies in the overlay. I assume this comes from projecting across layers rather than indicating DH44 - IPC overlap? It would help to explicitly state that. 

      We have added a statement to the results section, in which we explain that most of the white is due to overlap in the z-projection rather than overlap in the driver lines. However, there are few cases (typically one to two cells per brain), in which neurons labeled by the DH44 line also stain positive for Dilp2, indicating they express both neuropeptides. We have added this information to the manuscript:  

      Results: ‘DH44<sup>PI</sup>Ns are anatomically similar to IPCs, and their cell bodies are located directly adjacent to those of IPCs in the PI, making them an ideal positive control for our experiments (Figure 3D). A small subset of DH44<sup>PI</sup>Ns also expresses Dilp2(75), and our immunostainings confirmed colocalization of Dilp2 and DH44 in a single neuron (Figure 3D, white arrow).’

      In figure caption: ‘UAS-myr-GFP was expressed under a DH44-GAL4 driver to label DH44 neurons. GFP was enhanced with anti-GFP (green), brain neuropils were stained with anti-nc82 (cyan), and IPCs were labelled using a Dilp2 antibody (magenta). White arrow indicates Dilp2 and DH44-GAL4 positive neuron. The other white regions in the image result from an overlap in z-projections between the two channels, rather than from antibody colocalization.’

      - Figure 4I: One might get the impression that the fast onset peak of activity precedes the stimulation onset, using a thinner line width might help avoid that. 

      This effect is due to a combination of using relatively heavy lines for clear visibility of the data and a gentle smoothing step (a 2s median filter, which corresponds to less than 1% of the 300s stimulation window) in our analysis of the behavioral data. However, inspection of the raw data clearly shows increases in velocity after the onset of the optogenetic activation. We clarified this in the figure caption: ‘Average FV across all DH44N activation trials based on two independent replications of the experiment in I. Note that the peak in average FV lies within the first frame of the stimulation window.’

      - S3 panel letters do not match references in the text.

      We fixed this oversight.

      Formatting 

      - Page 10: The paragraphs on the bottom of the page got switched around.

      This has been fixed.

      - Page 14: The first paragraph after the header "Free-walking assay" seems to be coming from elsewhere. 

      We apologize for this slightly embarrassing mistake. We used our related bioRxiv preprint (Held et al.) as a template for formatting this paper, and accidentally left this part of the methods section in the manuscript. We have fixed this error in our resubmission.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      Major suggestions: 

      (1) The data show convincingly that IPC activity is decreased by starvation during the first week of adult life (Figures 1C and D). However, the conclusion that IPC activity is controlled by the nutritional state requires additional care. First, refeeding starved adult animals with a normal diet does not bring back normal IPC firing rates (Figure 1H). Therefore, IPC activity does not strictly follow changes in nutritional state, but IPCs are silenced by starvation. Second, from the second week of adult life on, IPCs are silent anyway, and thus unlikely responsive to changes in the nutritional state anymore (which might be different on a different standard diet?) The only effect of feeding on IPC activity is observed upon feeding starved, young animals with high glucose for 12-24 hrs (Figure 1G). However, it is not clear whether increased IPC firing is caused by the effects of high glucose on the nutritional state in a normal range, or because of diet-induced stress (the diet also severely shortens lifespan, Figure 1S). Does high glucose also increase IPC firing rate in young, fed animals? These would have strongly increased glucose concentrations but not suffer the stress of not getting any other nutrients. Such experiments would be required to make the statement that glucose feeding increases IPC firing rate. 

      We have performed several experiments to address this criticism. First, we performed a time course analysis of the starvation effect. We show that the IPC activity reduction is graded, and that IPC activity declines already after two hours of starvation, a timepoint at which stress levels should still be relatively small (Figure 1G). Second, we refed flies with high glucose concentrations added to the standard diet (Figure 1H). This minimized any potential stress responses due to a lack in nutrients. Third, we now show that IPCs specifically respond to nutritive (glucose and fructose), but not to non-nutritive sugars (arabinose, Figure 1H). We believe that these data sets, in addition to the graded refeeding effect, make a strong case for the nutritional state dependent modulation of IPCs. 

      (2) The testing of locomotor activity is well done, nicely recapitulates starvation-induced increases in locomotion, and adds interesting novel findings on refeeding with high glucose versus high protein diet. However, the statement that locomotor activity was affected by the same dietary manipulations that had strong effects on IPC activity does not reflect the data presented. Refeeding starved flies with a standard diet had no effect on IPC activity (Figure 1H) but a strong effect on locomotor activity of starved flies (a strong reduction, even stronger than high glucose diet, Figure 2B). 

      We have revised the respective section of the results and discussion accordingly and are more careful and clearer in our interpretation of this behavioral dataset: ‘These results show that the locomotor activity was affected by the same dietary manipulations that had strong effects on IPC activity. However, IPC activity changes alone cannot explain the modulation of starvationinduced hyperactivity. On the one hand, high-glucose diets which drove the highest activity in IPCs were not sufficient to reduce locomotor activity back to baseline levels. On the other hand, refeeding flies with SD did not revert the effects of starvation on IPC activity (Figure 1H), but it was sufficient to reduce the locomotor activity below baseline levels (Figure 2B). This suggests that the modulation of starvation-induced hyperactivity is achieved by multiple modulatory systems acting in parallel.’

      Related to points 1 and 2, a key statement that the results establish that IPC activity is controlled by the nutritional state requires care. What the data convincingly show is that IPC activity is near zero upon starvation. 

      As described above, we have added several extensive data sets (fructose feeding, arabinose feeding, trehalose perfusion, starvation time course) to show that we indeed observe a nutritional state dependent modulation of IPCs and describe these new results in the results and discussion.

      (3) The time course of nutritional state-dependent changes of IPC activity is claimed to be slow, several hours to days. Unless I have missed a figure, the underlying data are not presented (only for high glucose diet). It would be great if this could also be shown for a standard diet with higher glucose concentrations than the one used so that it rescues starvation-induced IPC silencing without shortening lifespan (if this is feasible?). The data showing starvation-induced IPC silencing are convincing, but, unless I have missed it, the time course has not been determined. It would be very nice to actually show this. Have different starvation times been tested in relation to IPC firing rate, and if yes, with what time resolution? Does IPC activity change already after 0.5 or 1 or a few hours of starvation? If starvation can silence IPCs faster than assumed, the nearzero IPC activity in animals older than a week could very well be caused by longer time intervals between meals. 

      We have performed experiments to address both important points raised by the referee here. 1) We have added high glucose concentrations to our standard diet, and show that it has the same effect – a significant increase in IPC activity – as the high glucose diet (Figure 1H). 2) We have analyzed the time course of IPC activity reduction in response to starvation (Figure 1G). Indeed, we find that a few hours of starvation start reducing IPC activity. We discuss the possibility that reduced IPC activity in older flies could be due to reduced food intake: ‘One of our experiments demonstrated that IPC activity was heavily diminished in flies older than 10 days (Figure S2B). A possible explanation could be that flies feed less as they age. However, this only holds true for flies older than 14 days86. Therefore, reduced IPC activity in 10-11 day old flies is unlikely to result from reduced food intake and likely involves inhibition of insulin signaling.’

      (4) The data on the proposed incretin effect are of high importance in potentially highlighting a highly conserved link between glucose ingestion and insulin release. An important control would be to test different sugars, such as trehalose, an important blood sugar of flies. If glucose is converted into trehalose and this is what IPCs sense, then perfusion of glucose has no effect. The fact fantastic experiments show that the DH44 neurons are sensitive to glucose perfusion does rule out that IPCs sense a different sugar. This would be very different from the incretin effect that requires additional hormones. In addition, as mentioned above, controls are required to show that high glucose affects IPCs as a nutrient and not as a stressor (see point 1), for example refeeding with a standard diet that contains a higher glucose concentration but does not reduce lifespan. Another great control to solidify the exciting claim on the incretin effect would be to knock out candidate Drosophila incretin hormones and test whether a high glucose diet stops increasing the IPC firing rate (although simpler controls might also do the job). 

      We have performed the two key experiments suggested by the referee. 1) We perfused trehalose as the primary blood sugar of flies and showed that IPCs do not respond to trehalose perfusion (Figure 3B & C). This further strengthens the finding that IPC activity in flies shows an incretin-like effect. 2) We have added high concentrations of glucose to our standard diet to provide flies with a full diet that contains high glucose concentrations. IPC activity in these flies was indistinguishable from the activity in flies which consumed pure glucose diets. In contrast, IPC activity in flies kept on a high protein diet, which dramatically reduced lifespan, was very low. These results clearly show that higher IPC activity is not due to increased stress levels, but a function of nutritive sugar ingestion. We further validated this hypothesis by refeeding flies with fructose as a nutritive sugar, which increased IPC activity, and arabinose as a non-nutritive sugar, which did not affect IPC activity (Figure 1H).

      Another point that might be relevant to this discussion is that IPC activity is almost entirely shut down during flight in Drosophila (which we showed in Liessem et al. 2023, Current Biology 33 (3), 449-463. e5). Several ‘stress hormones’ are released during flight, including octopamine. The fact that IPC activity is low in flying flies, starved flies, and flies kept on a pure protein diet (which all experience high stress levels), to us, very clearly suggests that stress is not the predominant factor here. We would also like to point out that, while the lifespan was reduced in flies kept on pure glucose diets, survival rates were at 100% until day 14, and we carried out our experiments on day 2 after starvation. Hence, these flies might not (yet) experience particularly high stress levels.

      (5) The discussion relates the absence of IPC firing in animals older than 1 week to aging. However, given that the flies fed on a normal diet show the typical lifespan for Drosophila, a 10-dayold fly is still in its youth. Maybe flies at 10 days eat simply less and thus IPC spiking goes down as in starved flies, especially because the standard diet used contains low glucose. Do IPCs also become silent after a week if the animals are fed with a standard diet that contains a higher glucose concentration? Without additional controls, this part of the discussion is pretty speculative and should be revised. 

      We agree with the reviewer, that it is not clear whether reduced IPC activity is a direct result of physiological changes that occur with aging, or an indirect effect of reduced food intake, which occur during aging. In both cases, in our view, it would be an age-related effect. Since this is a minor point of our manuscript, we decided not to perform additional experiments, other than significantly increasing the sample size for the aging data set already presented to shore up our findings (Figure S2B). We have, however, revisited the discussion of this point according to the referee’s suggestion: ‘One of our experiments demonstrated that IPC activity was heavily diminished in flies older than 10 days (Figure S2B). A possible explanation could be that flies feed less as they age. However, this only holds true for flies older than 14 days(85). Therefore, reduced IPC activity in 10-11 day old flies is unlikely to result from reduced food intake and likely involves inhibition of insulin signaling.’

      Other suggestions: 

      (6) For the mixed effects of octopamine and tyramine on larval locomotion that are referred to, it might be interesting to also look at Schützler et al 2019, PNAS because it shows that starvation activates TBH so that the octopamine to tyramine ratio is increased. 

      We refer to Schützler et al. in the following paragraph of our discussion: ‘This intermittent locomotor arrest has been previously described in adult flies and is thought to be mediated by ventral unpaired median OANs, which have been suggested to suppress long-distance foraging behavior(69). Since these are not the only neurons we activate in the TDC2 line, we speculate that the stopping phenotype could also result from concerted effects of octopamine and tyramine modulating muscle contractions(65-67) and motor neuron excitability(68), as previously described in Drosophila larvae, or from OANs interfering with pattern generating networks in the ventral nerve cord (VNC) during longer activation(69).’  

      (7) The reference list requires care. For example, reference 43 is identical to 67, reference 66 gives no information on incretin-like hormones in Drosophila as stated in the text 

      We carefully double-checked our reference list and corrected the mistakes mentioned.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      I have reviewed, with interest, the manuscript "Psychological stress disturbs bone metabolism via miR-335-3p/Fos signaling in osteoclast". The described findings are relevant and useful for daily practice in periodontology. The paper is concise, professionally written, and easy to read. In this study, Jiayao et al. revealed the role of miR-335-3p in psychological stress-induced osteoporosis. CUMS mice were constructed to observe the femur phenotype, osteoclasts were identified as the primary research object, and miRNA-seq was used to find the key miRNAs linking the brain and peripheral tissues. This study showed that the expression of miR-335-3p was simultaneously reduced in mice's NAC, serum, and bone under psychological stress. The miR-335-3p/Fos/NFATC1 signaling pathway was validated in osteoclasts to reveal the potential mechanism of enhanced osteoclast activity under psychological stress. From a new perspective of miRNAs, this study indicates a possible cause of disturbed bone metabolism due to psychological stress and may suggest a new approach to treating osteoporosis.

      We thank this reviewer for the instructive suggestions and encouragement.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Zhang et al. established chronic unpredictable mild stress (CUMS) mouse model, which displayed osteoporosis phenotype, suggesting a potential correlation between psychological stress and bone metabolism. They found that miRNA candidate miR-335-3p is downregulated in the long bone of CUMS mice through microRNA sequencing and qRT-PCR experiments. They further demonstrated that miR-335-3p attenuates osteoclast activity via inhibiting Fos signaling, which can induce NFATC1 expression and regulate osteoclast activity.

      Strengths:

      The authors established CUMS mouse model and confirmed the osteoporosis phenotype through careful characterization of bone and analysis of osteoclast activity. They performed microRNA sequencing to identify the miRNA candidate regulating the bone loss in the CUMS mouse model. They also validated the expression of miR-335-3p and interfered with the function of miR-335-3p through an in vitro assay. Overall, the findings from this study provide important hints for the correlation between psychological stress and bone metabolism.

      We thank this reviewer for the comprehensive summary and positive comment on our work.

      Weakness:

      The data provided by the authors are preliminary, especially the mechanistic insight, which needs to be enhanced. The authors have shown that miR-335-3p expression was altered in the CUMS mouse model and the change of its expression regulated osteoclast activity. The validation should be conducted in vivo, and the mechanism behind this should be investigated further.

      We thank the reviewer’s important insight on the need for further in vivo validation of the role of miR-335-3p. Therefore, we designed and produced Antagomir-335-3p (antagonist) and Agomir-335-3p (agonist). Then, we injected them into the body through the tail vein for about 2 months and observed the bone phenotype in each group of mice. The results suggested that the decrease of miR-335-3p in vivo could lead to bone loss, which was consistent with our in vitro validation results (Figure 5H-I).

      Reviewing Editor:

      Method

      (1) Bone histomorphometric analysis following ASBMR's guidelines Bone histomorphometric analysis of bone formation and bone resorption: The authors should follow ASBMR's guidelines for bone histomorphometry (PMCID: PMC3672237 and PMID: 3455637) to perform standard analyses of histomorphometry, rather than selected areas. They should also clearly describe a software used and define the areas analyzed.

      We carefully re-analyzed bone histomorphometry according to ASBMR guidelines and combine this with our own understanding. At the same time, we improved the description of micro-CT and histological analysis in the method. If there is still any lack of standardization, we would be grateful for any constructive suggestions to improve this.

      (2) Osteoclast cultures require nuclear staining to demonstrate multinucleated Trap positive cells.

      We used the RAW264.7, a mouse macrophage-like cell line, for in vitro culture and induced its differentiation towards osteoclasts. Successfully induced osteoclasts showed enlarged cytoplasm and multinucleated fusion. Tartrate-resistant acid phosphatase (Trap) is the signature enzyme of osteoclasts. It can bind to the chromogen to exhibit a mauve color, based on the principle of azo-coupled immunohistochemistry. At the same time, small and rounded nuclei fused show a lighter color (author response image 1, yellow arrows). We attempted to stain the nuclei with hematoxylin based on this. However, it was unable to further distinguish the contours of the nuclei clearly due to the similar color to the Trap positive signals. Besides, many other scholars have assessed osteoclast activity in vitro experiments based solely on the results of Trap staining (area and number) (Cheng et al., 2022; Li et al., 2019; Ma et al., 2021; Zhong et al., 2023). Nevertheless, in the immunofluorescence staining of osteoclasts, the nuclei were labeled using a Hochest antibody to reflect the multinucleated fusion of osteoclasts (Figure 5G).  

      (3) Osteoclast pit assays should be carried out to necessarily demonstrate the change of osteoclast resorption ability caused by miR-335-3p.

      We added osteoclast pit assays to validate the role of miR-335-3p on osteoclast resorptive capacity (Figure 5D-E).

      (4) Serum ELISA assay should be done to examine the global change of bone remodeling in the CUMS mice to assess bone formation and bone resorption that will support their claim.

      We performed additional tests on serum concentrations of R-hydroxy glutamic acid protein (BGP), TRAP, Cathepsin K (CTSK), parathyroid hormone (PTH), calcium (CA), phosphate (P) in control and CUMS mice, which could better reflect the global change of bone remodeling in the CUMS mice (Figure 3— figure supplement 1).

      (5) miR-RNA-seq: A labeled volcano plot should be used to replace the present one to show significant changes in differential gene expression.

      We appreciate this great suggestion. We replaced the volcano plot that showed significant changes in differential gene expression (Figure 4B). We also uploaded the raw data to the GEO database (GSE253504), making the results clearer and more accessible.

      Discussion

      The authors should discuss previous works on the influences of hormones from the brain on chronic stress-induced bone loss and an association of these influences with their findings.

      The discussion on the relationship between the bone metabolism regulation of both hormones and miR-335-3p in psychological stress was added in the second and fifth paragraphs of the discussion. To conclude, on the one hand, brain-derived and blood-transported miR-335-3p regulate bone metabolism synergistically. On the other hand, it exerted a more direct influence on bone under psychological stress.

      Language

      The language of the MS should be improved.

      The manuscript has been carefully edited by a professional proofreader.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Figure 1F: The exact meaning of the Waveform Graph shown at left needs to be clarified for the not-so-experienced reader.

      We added the more detailed meaning of the Waveform Graph in figure legends (Figure legend 1F).

      (2) Is the concomitant increase in osteogenic and osteoblastic activity in this study consistent with that seen in similar disease studies? This could be added to the discussion.

      In the fifth paragraph of the discussion section, we present the alterations of osteogenic and osteoblastic activity observed in other studies that are similar to ours. We also had a detailed discussion based on these observations.

      (3) Figure 6A: Please highlight the key information to visualize the potential linkage among miR-335-3p, Fos, and osteoclast.

      We highlighted the crucial linkage among miR-335-3p, Fos, and osteoclast with red arrows (Figure 6A)

      4) Figure 6E: The specific area of the selected comparison needs to be clarified. Please add white dotted lines and lettering T (trabecular bone) and GP (growth plate) for the not-so-experienced reader. This will provide some orientation.

      We used white dotted lines as well as letters to label the tissue in immunofluorescence staining images (Figure 6E).

      (5) Line 350: "NAC derived and blood-trans, Ported miR-335-3p". There is a grammatical error. Please conduct general proofreading of the text and writing style.

      Thank you for pointing this out. We have corrected this grammatical error, and we also checked the full text to correct similar errors.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) miR-335-3p was downregulated in the femur in the CUMS mice. The possible mechanism for this outcome should be further discussed. In Figure 4B, the Volcano plot showed that only a few miRNA were differentially expressed between the control and CUMS mice. How do the authors explain this?

      The chronic unpredictable mild stress (CUMS) model was constructed using normal mice. As the name of the model suggests, the stimulus is mild and does not cause developmental damage or teratogenic effects in mice. Conversely, CUMS has the potential to result in the chronic pathological conditions. Besides, in miRNA sequencing results from other tissues with similar models to ours, the number of differential miRNAs is also around a few dozen (Ma et al., 2019).

      (2) The authors have demonstrated that miR-335-3p inhibits osteoclast differentiation based on an in vitro assay in Figure 5; however, an in vivo experiment is required to provide more solid evidence.

      We strongly agree that in vivo experimental validation would bring more convincing results to this study. Therefore, we designed and produced Antagomir-335-3p (antagonist) and Agomir-335-3p (agonist), which were injected into mice via the tail vein every five days. Samples were collected at one and two months following the injection. We found that sustained two-month injections of antagomir could significantly lead to bone loss in mice (Figure 5H-I), which is consistent with our in vitro validation results.

      However, the Agomir-miR-335-3p group did not exhibit a notable enhancement of bone mass. This may be attributed to the fact that the 11-week-old normal mice selected for this study were in their prime and did not have strong osteoclastic activity in vivo. Therefore, the osteoclastic inhibition of Agomir-335-3p could not be demonstrated.

      In addition, no significant difference was seen one month after the injection. The main reason may be that the time is too short. On the one hand, the drug we injected was RNA preparation. They lacked stability resulting in poor delivery efficiency, which took some time to take effect. On the other hand, bone remodeling is also a time-consuming process.

      (3) FOS and NFATC1 should be expressed in the nuclei of the cells, therefore, the quality of the images needs to be improved.

      NFATC1 is a T-cell-activating nuclear factor that is activated in the nucleus to regulate the transcription of a variety of osteoclast-related genes, including ACP5, MMP9, etc. FOS could bind and interact with NFATC1, resulting in nuclear translocation and transcription activated. This could promote the differentiation and maturation of osteoclasts. They are both synthesized and processed in the cytoplasm and eventually enter the nucleus to perform their functions. Therefore, they are expressed in both the nucleus and the cytoplasm (Deng et al., 2022; Hounoki et al., 2008; Li et al., 2022).

      In Figure 5G, we labeled cell nuclei with HOCHEST antibody with blue fluorescence, and more co-localized signals of nuclei (blue), FOS (red), and NFATC1 (green) were seen in the Inhibitor-miR-335-3p group, whereas the opposite result was observed in the Mimic-miR-335-3p group. These results indicated that inhibited miR-335-3p could promote osteoclast differentiation in vitro.

      (4) The expression of FOS was elevated in CUMS group in Figure 6E; however, its mRNA level was unchanged, as shown in Figure 6 supplement; what is the explanation for this? How do the authors claim FOS is the downstream target if its mRNA expression is not impacted by CUMS?

      The results demonstrated that miR-335-3p targeted binding to the mRNA of Fos did not result in mRNA degradation. Instead, this binding interferes with the protein translation process, which ultimately leads to the reduction of FOS protein.

      (5) What would be the bone phenotype if a FOS inhibitor was injected into the control and CUMS mice? It is important to examine FOS function through an in vivo context.

      The regulatory role of FOS for osteoclasts has been validated in numerous articles, both in vivo and in vitro(Aikawa et al., 2008; Cao et al., 2023; Cheng et al., 2022). For example, Aikawa et al. designed a small-molecule inhibitor of c-Fos/activator protein-1 (AP-1) using three-dimensional (3D) pharmacophore modeling, which helped verify the effect of FOS on osteoclasts in vivo(Aikawa et al., 2008).

      We also strongly agree that in vivo injection of inhibitors of FOS, especially in CUMS mice, could further substantiate the role of miR-335-3p in osteoclasts under psychological stress. However, the study was constrained by the unavailability of commercially viable, efficacious small molecule inhibitors of FOS. In the future, we plan to design more precise therapeutic targets for psychological stress induced osteoporosis based on existing research ideas.

      Reference

      Aikawa, Y., Morimoto, K., Yamamoto, T., Chaki, H., Hashiramoto, A., Narita, H., Hirono, S., & Shiozawa, S. (2008). Treatment of arthritis with a selective inhibitor of c-Fos/activator protein-1. Nature Biotechnology, 26(7), 817-823. https://doi.org/10.1038/nbt1412

      Cao, Z., Niu, X. B., Wang, M. H., Yu, S. W., Wang, M. K., Mu, S. L., Liu, C., & Wang, Y. X. (2023, Nov). Anemoside B4 attenuates RANKL-induced osteoclastogenesis by upregulating Nrf2 and dampens ovariectomy-induced bone loss [Article]. Biomedicine & Pharmacotherapy, 167, 12, Article 115454. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.biopha.2023.115454

      Cheng, X., Yin, C., Deng, Y., & Li, Z. (2022). Exogenous adenosine activates A2A adenosine receptor to inhibit RANKL-induced osteoclastogenesis via AP-1 pathway to facilitate bone repair. Molecular Biology Reports, 49(3), 2003-2014. https://doi.org/10.1007/s11033-021-07017-1

      Deng, W., Ding, Z., Wang, Y., Zou, B., Zheng, J., Tan, Y., Yang, Q., Ke, M., Chen, Y., Wang, S., & Li, X. (2022). Dendrobine attenuates osteoclast differentiation through modulating ROS/NFATc1/ MMP9 pathway and prevents inflammatory bone destruction. Phytomedicine : International Journal of Phytotherapy and Phytopharmacology, 96, 153838. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.phymed.2021.153838

      Hounoki, H., Sugiyama, E., Mohamed, S. G.-K., Shinoda, K., Taki, H., Abdel-Aziz, H. O., Maruyama, M., Kobayashi, M., & Miyahara, T. (2008). Activation of peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor gamma inhibits TNF-alpha-mediated osteoclast differentiation in human peripheral monocytes in part via suppression of monocyte chemoattractant protein-1 expression. Bone, 42(4), 765-774. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.bone.2007.11.016

      Li, Y., Yang, C., Jia, K., Wang, J., Wang, J., Ming, R., Xu, T., Su, X., Jing, Y., Miao, Y., Liu, C., & Lin, N. (2022). Fengshi Qutong capsule ameliorates bone destruction of experimental rheumatoid arthritis by inhibiting osteoclastogenesis. Journal of Ethnopharmacology, 282, 114602. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jep.2021.114602

      Li, Z., Huang, J., Wang, F., Li, W., Wu, X., Zhao, C., Zhao, J., Wei, H., Wu, Z., Qian, M., Sun, P., He, L., Jin, Y., Tang, J., Qiu, W., Siwko, S., Liu, M., Luo, J., & Xiao, J. (2019). Dual Targeting of Bile Acid Receptor-1 (TGR5) and Farnesoid X Receptor (FXR) Prevents Estrogen-Dependent Bone Loss in Mice. Journal of Bone and Mineral Research : the Official Journal of the American Society For Bone and Mineral Research, 34(4), 765-776. https://doi.org/10.1002/jbmr.3652

      Ma, K., Zhang, H., Wei, G., Dong, Z., Zhao, H., Han, X., Song, X., Zhang, H., Zong, X., Baloch, Z., & Wang, S. (2019). Identification of key genes, pathways, and miRNA/mRNA regulatory networks of CUMS-induced depression in nucleus accumbens by integrated bioinformatics analysis. Neuropsychiatric Disease and Treatment, 15, 685-700. https://doi.org/10.2147/NDT.S200264

      Ma, Q., Liang, M., Wu, Y., Luo, F., Ma, Z., Dong, S., Xu, J., & Dou, C. (2021). Osteoclast-derived apoptotic bodies couple bone resorption and formation in bone remodeling. Bone Research, 9(1), 5. https://doi.org/10.1038/s41413-020-00121-1

      Zhong, L., Lu, J., Fang, J., Yao, L., Yu, W., Gui, T., Duffy, M., Holdreith, N., Bautista, C. A., Huang, X., Bandyopadhyay, S., Tan, K., Chen, C., Choi, Y., Jiang, J. X., Yang, S., Tong, W., Dyment, N., & Qin, L. (2023). Csf1 from marrow adipogenic precursors is required for osteoclast formation and hematopoiesis in bone. eLife, 12. https://doi.org/10.7554/eLife.82112

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Batra, Cabrera, Spence et al. present a model which integrates histone posttranslational modification (PTM) data across cell models to predict gene expression with the goal of using this model to better understand epigenetic editing. This gene expression prediction model approach is useful if a) it predicts gene expression in specific cell lines b) it predicts expression values rather than a rank or bin, c) it helps us to better understand the biology of gene expression, or d) it helps us to understand epigenome editing activity. Problematically for points a) and b) it is easier to directly measure gene expression than to measure multiple PTMs and so the real usefulness of this approach mostly relates to c) and d).

      We thank the reviewer for their comment and we agree that directly measuring gene expression (e.g., by performing RNA-seq) is easier than performing multiple PTMs in a new cell line. We designed our approach keeping in mind that the primary use case is to understand how epigenome editing would affect gene expression.

      Other approaches have been published that use histone PTM to predict expression (e.g. 27587684, 36588793). Is this model better in some way? No comparisons are made. The paper does not seem to have substantial novel insights into understanding the biology of gene expression. The approach of using this model to predict epigenetic editor activity on transcription is interesting and to my knowledge novel but I doubt given the variability of the predictions (Figures 6 and S7&8) that many people will be interested in using this in a practical sense. As the authors point out, the interpretation of the epigenetic editing data is convoluted by things like sgRNA activity scoring and to fully understand the results likely would require histone PTM profiling and maybe dCas9 ChIP-seq for each sgRNA which would be a substantial amount of work.

      We thank the reviewer for this insightful comment. We have included citations for a series of papers (PMIDs: 27587684, 30147283, 36588793) that performed gene expression prediction using histone PTM data. However, each of these methods perform classification of gene expression as opposed to predicting the actual gene expression value via regression. Additionally, the referenced studies all work with Roadmap Epigenomics read depth data as opposed to p-values obtained from the ENCODE pipelines, making it difficult to make direct comparisons.

      We outline in the Discussion section that by creating a comprehensive dataset of epigenome editing outcomes, which include quantification of histone PTMs before and after in situ perturbations, will improve our understanding of the effects of dCas9-p300 on gene expression and assist in the design of gRNAs for achieving fine-tuned control over gene expression levels. 

      Furthermore from the model evaluation of H3K9me3 it seems the model is not performing well for epigenetic or transcriptional editing- e.g. we know for the best studied transcriptional editor which is CRISPRi (dCas9-KRAB) that recruitment to a locus is associated with robust gene repression across the genome and is associated with H3K9me3 deposition by recruitment of KAP1/HP1/SETDB1 (PMID: 35688146, 31980609, 27980086, 26501517). However, it seems from Figures 2&4 that the model wouldn't be able to evaluate or predict this.

      We thank the reviewer for their comment. We have included a supplementary figure, Figure 4 – figure supplement 1, that quantifies how sensitive the trained gene expression model is to perturbations in H3K9me3. Indeed our data suggests that the model predictions are sensitive to perturbations in H3K9me3. For instance, there is a clear decrease and a gradual increase as the position where the perturbation is performed moves from upstream to downstream of the TSS. Additionally, the magnitude of the predicted fold-change is a function of how much the H3K9me3 is perturbed and hence the magnitude of change would be even higher if the perturbation magnitude is increased. However, this precise magnitude is hard to estimate In the absence of experimental perturbation data for H3K9me3.

      The model seems to predict gene expression for endogenous genes quite well although the authors sometimes use expression and sometimes use rank (e.g. Figure 6) - being clearer with how the model predicts expression rather than using rank or fold change would be very useful.

      We thank the reviewer for this important suggestion. We have added text in the revised manuscript to clarify that the model predicts gene expression values, which can be interpreted as rank or fold change, depending on the use case.

      One concern overall with this approach is that dCas9-p300 has been observed to induce sgRNA-independent off-target H3K27Ac (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8349887/ see Figure S5D) which could convolute interpretation of this type of experiment for the model.

      This is an excellent point and indeed, we and others have observed that dCas9-p300 can result in off-target H3K27ac levels (both increased and suppressed) across the genome. However, p300 is one of the few known proteins that can catalyze H3K27ac in the human genome, and H3K27ac remains a proxy for active genomic regulatory elements. Nevertheless, dCas9-p300 off target activity could certainly convolute our approach. We have included language to address this caveat in our discussion. Interestingly, even though dCas9-p300 (and other epigenome editing enzymes) can lead to off-target chromatin modifications, these effects often occur without coincident disruptions to the transcriptome. This suggests that many chromatin modifications, while “supportive” or “instructive” of/for transcription, may be insufficient (either alone or in the context of dCas9-based fusions) for transcriptional effects.

      Figure 2

      It seems this figure presents known rather than novel findings from the authors' description. Please comment on whether there are any new findings in this figure. Please comment on differences in patterns of repressive and activating histone PTMs between cell lines (e.g. H1-Esc H3K27me3 green 25-50% is more enriched than red 0-25%).

      Thank you for pointing out this issue. We have revised the text in both the Results and Discussion sections to better articulate that the goal of this figure is to validate the hypothesis that there are consistent patterns of histone PTMs with respect to gene expression across different human cell types.

      In Figure 2, which illustrates the raw histone marks data, the non-monotonic behavior of H3K27me3 in H1-hESC cells is indicative of a real biological phenomenon. This interpretation is supported by the relatively low Pearson correlation for the H3K27me3 mark observed in these cells, as documented in Figure 1b of another study: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2024.03.29.587323v1.

      Figure 3&4

      There are a number of approaches including DeepChrome and TransferChrome that predict endogenous gene expression from histone PTMs. I appreciate that the authors have not used the histone PTM data to predict gene expression levels of an "average cell" but rather that they are predicting expression within specific cell types or for unseen cell types. But from what is presented it isn't clear that the author's model is better or enabling beyond other approaches. The authors should show their model is better than other approaches or make clear why this is a significant advance that will be enabling for the field. For example is it that in this approach they are actually predicting expression levels whereas previous approaches have only predicted expressed or not expressed or a rank order or bin-based ranking?

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. We have added text to clarify the difference between our approach and existing approaches. There are two key differences between our model and other approaches. First, the gene expression model that we have trained here predicts gene expression values instead of gene expression levels as either high or low. Second, we have trained our models on ENCODE p-value data instead of read depths obtained from the Roadmap Epigenomics Consortium.

      Figure 5

      From the methods, it seems gene activation is measured by qpcr in hek293 transfected with individual sgRNAs and dCas9-p300. The cells aren't selected or sorted before qPCR so how are we sure that some of the variability isn't due to transfection efficiency associated with variable DNA quality or with variable transfection efficiency?

      This is a good question. All DNA preps were generated using high-quality reagents and consistent protocols. In addition, the only variable that changed with respect to transfection efficiency was the gRNA-encoding vector used in qPCR assays. We have added new data which demonstrates that transfection efficiency is shared across experiments (Figure 5 – figure supplement 1). We have also added additional experimental data as well as computational analysis analyzing a new dCas9-p300 based Perturb-seq dataset to the manuscript (Figure 6 – figure supplement 1), which use lentiviral transduction and RNA-seq as readouts and thus, are buffered against the variances mentioned by the Reviewer.

      Figure 6

      The use of rank in 6D and 6E is confusing. In 6D a higher rank is associated with higher expression while in 6E a higher rank seems to mean a lower fold change e.g. CYP17A1 has a low predicted fold-change rank and qPCR fold-change rank but in Figure 5 a very high qPCR fold change. Labeling this more clearly or explaining it in the text further would be useful.

      We thank the reviewer for their suggestion. We have made relevant changes to the caption of Figure 6 to clarify this.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors build a gene expression model based on histone post-translational modifications and find that H3K27ac is correlated with gene expression. They proceed to perturb H3K27ac at 8 gene promoters, and measure gene expression changes to test their model.

      Strengths:

      The combination of multiple methods to model expression, along with utilizing 6 histone datasets in 13 cell types allowed the authors to build a model that correlates between 0.7-0.79 with gene expression. This group also utilized a tool they are experts in, dCas9-p300 fusions to perturb H3K27ac and monitor gene expression to test their model. Ranked correlations showed some support for the predictions after the perturbation of H3K27ac.

      Weaknesses:

      The perturbation of only 8 genes, and the only readout being qPCR-based gene expression, as opposed to including H3K27ac, weakened their validation of the computational model. Likewise, the use of six genes that were not expressed being most activated by dCas9-p300 might weaken the correlations vs. looking at a broad range of different gene expressions as the original model was trained on.

      We thank the reviewer for their comments. We have added additional experimental data as well as computational analysis analyzing a new dCas9-p300 based Perturb-seq dataset to the manuscript. We observe that the models we have developed are able to predict the fold-change rank across genes reasonably well (Figure 6 – figure supplement 1), similar to what we observe in Figure 6E.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The authors should comment on how their model is different from or better than other models that use histone PTM data to predict gene expression.

      We thank the reviewer for this insightful suggestion. We have included citations for a series of papers (PMIDs: 27587684, 30147283, 36588793) that performed gene expression prediction using histone PTM data. However, each of these methods perform classification of gene expression as opposed to predicting the actual gene expression value via regression. Additionally, the referenced studies all work with Roadmap Epigenomics read depth data as opposed to p-values obtained from the ENCODE pipelines, making it difficult to make direct comparisons.

      The authors need to make clear whether their model will apply to other common epigenetic or transcriptional editors such as CRISPRi/H3K9me3 which is widely used.

      In this study, we focus on the histone changes induced by p300. However, future studies may use the framework described in our manuscript and apply it to other transcriptional editors as well.

      The authors need to be clearer about where they are predicting expression and where they are using rank. Ideally, show both.

      We thank the reviewer for this important suggestion. We have added text in the revised manuscript to clarify that the model predicts gene expression values, which can be interpreted as rank or fold change, depending on the use case.

      The authors should ideally show a case where they use the model to make a prediction of genes that can and can not be activated by dCas9-p300 or other epigenetic editors and then prove this with experiments.

      Thank you for the excellent suggestion. While it is indeed relevant, exploring this would extend beyond the scope of our current study. We consider it a valuable topic for future research.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The y-axis in 5C needs to be labeled. The authors state it is "relative mRNA" but these numbers correlated with fold changes shown in Table S2.

      We have clarified the definition of the Y-axis in the caption for Figure 5C.

    1. Author response:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      I did not follow the logic behind including spindle amplitude in the meta-analysis. This is not a measure of SO-spindle coupling (which is the focus of the review), unless the authors were restricting their analysis of the amplitude of coupled spindles only. It doesn't sound like this is the case though. The effect of spindle amplitude on memory consolidation has been reviewed in another recent meta-analysis (Kumral et al, 2023, Neuropsychologia). As standardization this isn't a measure of coupling, it wasn't clear why this measure was included in the present meta-analysis. You could easily make the argument that other spindle measures (e.g., density, oscillatory frequency) could also have been included, but that seems to take away from the overall goal of the paper which was to assess coupling.

      Indeed, spindle amplitude refers to all spindle events rather than only coupled spindles. This choice was made because we recognized the challenge of obtaining relevant data from each study—only 4 out of the 23 included studies performed their analyses after separating coupled and uncoupled spindles. This inconsistency strengthens the urgency and importance of this meta-analysis to standardize the methods and measures used for future analysis on SO-SP coupling and beyond. We agree that focusing on the amplitude of coupled spindles would better reveal their relations with coupling, and we will discuss this limitation in the manuscript.

      Nevertheless, we believe including spindle amplitude in our study remains valuable, as it served several purposes. First, SO-SP coupling involves the modulation between spindle amplitude and slow oscillation phase. Different studies have reported conflicting conclusions regarding how spindle amplitude was related to coupling– some found significant correlations (e.g., Baena et al., 2023), while others did not (e.g., Roebber et al., 2022). This discrepancy highlights an indirect but potentially crucial insight into the role of spindle amplitude in coupling dynamics. Second, in studies related to SO-SP coupling, spindle amplitude is one of the most frequently reported measures along with other coupling measures that significantly correlated with oversleep memory improvements (e.g. Kurz et al., 2023; Ladenbauer et al., 2021; Niknazar et al., 2015), so we believe that including this measure can more comprehensively review of the existing literature on SO-SP coupling. Third, incorporating spindle amplitude allows for a direct comparison between the measurement of coupling and individual events alone in their contribution to memory consolidation– a question that has been extensively explored in recent research. (e.g., Hahn et al., 2020; Helfrich et al., 2019; Niethard et al., 2018; Weiner et al., 2023). Finally, spindle amplitude was identified as a key moderator for memory consolidation in Kumral et al.'s (2023) meta-analysis. By including it in our analysis, we sought to replicate their findings within a broader framework and introduce conceptual overlaps with existing reviews. Therefore, although we were not able to selectively include coupled spindles, there is still a unique relation between spindle amplitude and SO-SP coupling that other spindle measures do not have. 

      Originally, we also intended to include coupling density or counts in the analysis, which seems more relevant to the coupling metrics. However, the lack of uniformity in methods used to measure coupling density posed a significant limitation. We hope that our study will encourage consistent reporting of all relevant parameters in future research, enabling future meta-analyses to incorporate these measures comprehensively. We will add this discussion to the manuscript in the revised version to further clarify these points.

      References:

      Roebber, J. K., Lewis, P. A., Crunelli, V., Navarrete, M. & Hamandi, K. Effects of anti-seizure medication on sleep spindles and slow waves in drug-resistant epilepsy. Brain Sci. 12, 1288 (2022). https://doi.org/10.3390/brainsci12101288

      All other citations were referenced in the manuscript.

      At the end of the first paragraph of section 3.1 (page 13), the authors suggest their results "... further emphasise the role of coupling compared to isolated oscillation events in memory consolidation". This had me wondering how many studies actually test this. For example, in a hierarchical regression model, would coupled spindles explain significantly more variance than uncoupled spindles? We already know that spindle activity, independent of whether they are coupled or not, predicts memory consolidation (e.g., Kumral meta-analysis). Is the variance in overnight memory consolidation fully explained by just the coupled events? If both overall spindle density and coupling measures show an equal association with consolidation, then we couldn't conclude that coupling compared to isolated events is more important.

      While primary coupling measurements, including coupling phase and strength, showed strong evidence for their associations with memory consolidation, measures of spindles, including spindle amplitude, only exhibited limited evidence (or “non-significant” effect) for their association with consolidation. These results are consistent with multiple empirical studies using different techniques (e.g., Hahn et al., 2020; Helfrich et al., 2019; Niethard et al., 2018; Weiner et al., 2023), which reported that coupling metrics are more robust predictors of consolidation and synaptic plasticity than spindle or slow oscillation metrics alone. However, we agree with the reviewer that we did not directly separate the effect between coupled and uncoupled spindles, and a more precise comparison would involve contrasting the “coupling of oscillation events” with ”individual oscillation events” rather than coupling versus isolated events.

      We recognized that Kumral and colleagues’ meta-analysis reported a moderate association between spindle measures and memory consolidation (e.g., for spindle amplitude-memory association they reported an effect size of approximately r = 0.30). However, one of the advantages of our study is that we actively cooperated with the authors to obtain a large number of unreported and insignificant data relevant to our analysis, as well as separated data that were originally reported under mixed conditions. This approach decreases the risk of false positives and selective reporting of results, making the effect size more likely to approach the true value. In contrast, we found only a weak effect size of r = 0.07 with minimal evidence for spindle amplitude-memory relation. However, we agree with the reviewer that using a more conservative term in this context would be a better choice since we did not measure all relevant spindle metrics including the density.

      To improve clarity in our manuscript, we will revise the statement to: “Together with other studies included in the review, our results suggest a crucial role of coupling but did not support the role of spindle events alone in memory consolidation,” and provide relevant references. We believe this can more accurately reflect our findings and the existing literature to address the reviewer’s concern.

      It was very interesting to see that the relationship between the fast spindle coupling phase and overnight consolidation was strongest in the frontal electrodes. Given this, I wonder why memory promoting fast spindles shows a centro-parietal topography? Surely it would be more adaptive for fast spindles to be maximally expressed in frontal sites. Would a participant who shows a more frontal topography of fast spindles have better overnight consolidation than someone with a more canonical centro-parietal topography? Similarly, slow spindles would then be perfectly suited for memory consolidation given their frontal distribution, yet they seem less important for memory.

      Regarding the topography of fast spindles and their relationship to memory consolidation, we agree this is an intriguing issue, and we have already developed significant progress in this topic in our ongoing work. We share a few relevant observations: First, there are significant discrepancies in the definition of “slow spindle” in the field. Some studies defined slow spindle from 9-12 Hz (e.g. Mölle et al., 2011; Kurz et al., 2021), while others performed the event detection within a range of 11-13/14 Hz (e.g. Barakat et al., 2011; D'Atri et al., 2018). Compounding this issue, individual differences in spindle frequency are often overlooked, leading to challenges in reliably distinguishing between slow and fast spindles. Some studies have reported difficulty in clearly separating the two types of spindles altogether (e.g., Hahn et al., 2020). Moreover, a critical factor often ignored in past research is the traveling nature of both slow oscillations and spindles across the cortex, where spindles are coupled with significantly different phases of slow oscillations (see Figure 5). We believe a better understanding of coupling in the context of the movement of these waves will help us better understand the observed frontal relationship with consolidation. We will address this in our revised manuscript.

      The authors rightly note the issues with multiple comparisons in sleep physiology and memory studies. Multiple comparison issues arise in two ways in this literature. First are comparisons across multiple electrodes (many studies now use high-density systems with 64+ channels). Second are multiple comparisons across different outcome variables (at least 3 ways to quantify coupling (phase, consistency, occurrence) x 2 spindle types (fast, slow). Can the authors make some recommendations here in terms of how to move the field forward, as this issue has been raised numerous times before (e.g., Mantua 2018, Sleep; Cox & Fell 2020, Sleep Medicine Reviews for just a couple of examples). Should researchers just be focusing on the coupling phase? Or should researchers always report all three metrics of coupling, and correct for multiple comparisons? I think the use of pre-registration would be beneficial here, and perhaps could be noted by the authors in the final paragraph of section 3.5, where they discuss open research practices.

      There are indeed multiple methods that we can discuss, including cluster-based and non-parametric methods, etc., to correct for multiple comparisons in EEG data with spatiotemporal structures. In addition, encouraging the reporting of all tested but insignificant results, at least in supplementary materials, is an important practice that helps readers understand the findings with reduced bias. We agree with the reviewer’s suggestions and will add more information in section 3.5 to advocate for a standardized “template” used to analyze and report effect size in future research.

      We advocate for the standardization of reporting all three coupling metrics– phase, consistency, and occurrence. Each coupling metric captures distinct properties of the coupling process and may interact with one another (Weiner et al., 2023). Therefore, we believe it is essential to report all three metrics to comprehensively explore their different roles in the “how, what, and where” of long-distance communication and consolidation of memory. As we advance toward a deeper understanding of the relationship between memory and sleep, we hope this work establishes a standard for the standardization, transparency, and replication of relevant studies.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Regarding the Moderator of Age: Although the authors discuss the limited studies on the analysis of children and elders regarding age as a moderator, the figure shows a significant gap between the ages of 40 and 60. Furthermore, there are only a few studies involving participants over the age of 60. Given the wide distribution of effect sizes from studies with participants younger than 40, did the authors test whether removing studies involving participants over 60 would still reveal a moderator effect?

      We agree that there is an age gap between younger and older adults, as current studies often focus on contrasting newly matured and fully aged populations to amplify the effect, while neglecting the gradual changes in memory consolidation mechanisms across the aging spectrum. We suggest that a non-linear analysis of age effects would be highly valuable, particularly when additional child and older adult data become available.

      In response to the reviewer’s suggestion, we re-tested the moderation effect of age after excluding effect sizes from older adults. The results revealed a decrease in the strength of evidence for phase-memory association due to increased variability, but were consistent for all other coupling parameters. The mean estimations also remained consistent (coupling phase-memory relation: -0.005 [-0.013, 0.004], BF10 = 5.51, the strength of evidence reduced from strong to moderate; coupling strength-memory relation: -0.005 [-0.015, 0.008], BF10 = 4.05, the strength of evidence remained moderate). These findings align with prior research, which typically observed a weak coupling-memory relationship in older adults during aging (Ladenbauer et al, 2021; Weiner et al., 2023) but not during development (Hahn et al., 2020; Kurz et al., 2021; Kurz et al., 2023). Therefore, this result is not surprising to us, and there are still observable moderate patterns in the data. We will report these additional results in the revised manuscript, and interpret “the moderator effect of age becomes less pronounced during development after excluding the older adult data”. We believe the original findings including the older adult group remain meaningful after cautious interpretation, given that the older adult data were derived from multiple studies and different groups.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      First, the authors conclude that "SO-SP coupling should be considered as a general physiological mechanism for memory consolidation". However, the reported effect sizes are smaller than what is typically considered a "small effect" (0.10)

      While we acknowledge the concern about the small effect sizes reported in our study, it is important to contextualize these findings within the field of neuroscience, particularly memory research. Even in individual studies, small effect sizes are not uncommon due to the inherent complexity of the mechanisms involved and the multitude of confounding variables. This is an important factor to be considered in meta-analyses where we synthesize data from diverse populations and experimental conditions. For example, the relationship between SO-slow SP coupling and memory consolidation in older adults is expected to be insignificant.

      As Funder and Ozer (2019) concluded in their highly cited paper, an effect size of r = 0.3 in psychological and related fields should be considered large, with r = 0.4 or greater likely representing an overestimation and rarely found in a large sample or in a replication. Therefore, we believe r = 0.1 should not be considered as a lower bound of the small effect. Bakker et al. (2019) also advocate for a contextual interpretation of the effect size. This is particularly important in meta-analyses, where the results are less prone to overestimation compared to individual studies, and we cooperated with all authors to include a large number of unreported and insignificant results. In this context, small correlations may contain substantial meaningful information to interpret. Although we agree that effect sizes reported in our study are indeed small at the overall level, they reflect a rigorous analysis that incorporates robust evidence across different levels of moderators. Our moderator analyses underscore the dynamic nature of coupling-memory relationships, with certain subgroups demonstrating much stronger and more meaningful effects, especially after excluding slow spindles and older adults. For example, both the coupling phase and strength of frontal fast spindles with slow oscillations exhibited "moderate-to-large" correlations with the consolidation of different types of memory, especially in young adults, with r values ranging from 0.18 to 0.32. (see Table S9.1-9.4). We will add more discussion about the influence of moderators on the dynamics of coupling-memory associations. In addition, we will update the conclusion to be “SO-fast SP coupling should be considered as a general physiological mechanism for memory consolidation”.

      Reference:

      Funder, D. C. & Ozer, D. J. Evaluating effect size in psychological research: sense and nonsense. Adv. Methods Pract. Psychol. Sci. 2, 156–168 (2019). https://doi.org/10.1177/2515245919847202.

      Bakker, A. et al. Beyond small, medium, or large: Points of consideration when interpreting effect sizes. Educ. Stud. Math. 102, 1–8 (2019). https://doi.org/10.1007/s10649-019-09908-4

      Second, the study implements state-of-the-art Bayesian statistics. While some might see this as a strength, I would argue that it is the greatest weakness of the manuscript. A classical meta-analysis is relatively easy to understand, even for readers with only a limited background in statistics. A Bayesian analysis, on the other hand, introduces a number of subjective choices that render it much less transparent.

      This kind of analysis seems not to be made to be intelligible to the average reader. It follows a recent trend of using more and more opaque methods. Where we had to trust published results a decade ago because the data were not openly available, today we must trust the results because the methods can no longer be understood with reasonable effort.

      This becomes obvious in the forest plots. It is not immediately apparent to the reader how the distributions for each study represent the reported effect sizes (gray dots). Presumably, they depend on the Bayesian priors used for the analysis. The use of these priors makes the analyses unnecessarily opaque, eventually leading the reader to question how much of the findings depend on subjective analysis choices (which might be answered by an additional analysis in the supplementary information).

      We appreciate the reviewer for sharing this viewpoint and we value the opportunity to clarify some key points. To address the concern about clarity, we will include a sub-section in the methods section explaining how to interpret Bayesian statistics including priors, posteriors, and Bayes factors, making our results more accessible to those less familiar with this approach.

      On the use of Bayesian models, we believe there may have been a misunderstanding. Bayesian methods, far from being "opaque" or overly complex, are increasingly valued for their ability to provide nuanced, accurate, and transparent inferences (Sutton & Abrams, 2001; Hackenberger, 2020; van de Schoot et al., 2021; Smith et al., 1995; Kruschke & Liddell, 2018). It has been applied in more than 1,200 meta-analyses as of 2020 (Hackenberger, 2020). In our study, we used priors that assume no effect (mean set to 0, which aligns with the null) while allowing for a wide range of variation to account for large uncertainties. This approach reduces the risk of overestimation or false positives and demonstrates much-improved performance over traditional methods in handling variability (Williams et al., 2018; Kruschke & Liddell, 2018). Sensitivity analyses reported in the supplemental material (Table S9.1-9.4) confirmed the robustness of our choices of priors– our results did not vary by setting different priors.

      As Kruschke and Liddell (2018) described, “shrinkage (pulling extreme estimates closer to group averages) helps prevent false alarms caused by random conspiracies of rogue outlying data,” a well-known advantage of Bayesian over traditional approaches. This explains the observed differences between the distributions and grey dots in the forest plots. Unlike p-values, which can be overestimated with a large sample size and underestimated with a small sample size, Bayesian methods make assumptions explicit, enabling others to challenge or refine them– an approach aligned with open science principles (van de Schoot et al., 2021). For example, a credible interval in Bayesian model can be interpreted as “there is a 95% probability that the parameter lies within the interval.”, while a confidence interval in frequentist model means “In repeated experiments, 95% of the confidence intervals will contain the true value.” We believe the former is much more straightforward and convincing for readers to interpret. We will ensure our justification for using Bayesian models is more clearly presented in the manuscript.

      We acknowledge that even with these justifications, different researchers may still have discrepancies in their preferences for Bayesian and frequentist models. To increase the effort of transparent reporting, we have also reported the traditional frequentist meta-analysis results in Supplemental Material 10 to justify the robustness of our analysis, which suggested non-significant differences between Bayesian and frequentist models. We will include clearer references in the next version of the manuscript to direct readers to the figures that report the statistics provided by traditional models.

      References:

      Hackenberger, B.K. Bayesian meta-analysis now—let's do it. Croat. Med. J. 61, 564–568 (2020). https://doi.org/10.3325/cmj.2020.61.564

      Sutton, A.J. & Abrams, K.R. Bayesian methods in meta-analysis and evidence synthesis. Stat. Methods Med. Res. 10, 277–303 (2001). https://doi.org/10.1177/096228020101000404

      Williams, D.R., Rast, P. & Bürkner, P.C. Bayesian meta-analysis with weakly informative prior distributions. PsyArXiv (2018). https://doi.org/10.31234/osf.io/9n4zp

      van de Schoot, R., Depaoli, S., King, R. et al. Bayesian statistics and modelling. Nat Rev Methods Primers 1, 1 (2021). https://doi.org/10.1038/s43586-020-00001-2

      Smith, T.C., Spiegelhalter, D.J. & Thomas, A. Bayesian approaches to random-effects meta-analysis: a comparative study. Stat. Med. 14, 2685–2699 (1995). https://doi.org/10.1002/sim.4780142408

      Kruschke, J.K. & Liddell, T.M. The Bayesian New Statistics: Hypothesis testing, estimation, meta-analysis, and power analysis from a Bayesian perspective. Psychon. Bull. Rev. 25, 178–206 (2018). https://doi.org/10.3758/s13423-016-1221-4

      However, most of the methods are not described in sufficient detail for the reader to understand the proceedings. It might be evident for an expert in Bayesian statistics what a "prior sensitivity test" and a "posterior predictive check" are, but I suppose most readers would wish for a more detailed description. However, using a "Markov chain Monte Carlo (MCMC) method with the no-U-turn Hamiltonian Monte Carlo (HMC) sampler" and checking its convergence "through graphical posterior predictive checks, trace plots, and the Gelman and Rubin Diagnostic", which should then result in something resembling "a uniformly undulating wave with high overlap between chains" is surely something only rocket scientists understand. Whether this was done correctly in the present study cannot be ascertained because it is only mentioned in the methods and no corresponding results are provided. 

      We appreciate the reviewer’s concerns about accessibility and potential complexity in our descriptions of Bayesian methods. Our decision to provide a detailed account serves to enhance transparency and guide readers interested in replicating our study. We acknowledge that some terms may initially seem overwhelming. These steps, such as checking the MCMC chain convergence and robustness checks, are standard practices in Bayesian research and are analogous to “linearity”, “normality” and “equal variance” checks in frequentist analysis. We have provided exemplary plots in the supplemental material and will add more details to explain the interpretation of these convergence checks. We hope this will help address any concerns about methodological rigor.

      In one point the method might not be sufficiently justified. The method used to transform circular-linear r (actually, all references cited by the authors for circular statistics use r² because there can be no negative values) into "Z_r", seems partially plausible and might be correct under the H0. However, Figure 12.3 seems to show that under the alternative Hypothesis H1, the assumptions are not accurate (peak Z_r=~0.70 for r=0.65). I am therefore, based on the presented evidence, unsure whether this transformation is valid. Also, saying that Z_r=-1 represents the null hypothesis and Z_r=1 the alternative hypothesis can be misinterpreted, since Z_r=0 also represents the null hypothesis and is not half way between H0 and H1.

      First, we realized that in the title of Figures 12.2 and 12.3. “true r = 0.35” and “true r = 0.65” should be corrected as “true Z_r”. The method we used here is to first generate an underlying population that has null (0), moderate (0.35), or large (0.65) Z_r correlations, then test whether the sampling distribution drawn from these populations followed a normal distribution across varying sample sizes. Nevertheless, the reviewer correctly noticed discrepancies between the reported true Z_r and its sampling distribution peak. This discrepancy arises because, when generating large population data, achieving exact values close to a strong correlation like Z_r = 0.65 is unlikely. We loop through simulations to generate population data and ensure their Z_r values fall within a threshold. For moderate effect sizes (e.g., Z_r = 0.35), this is straightforward using a narrow range (0.345 < Z_r < 0.355). However, for larger effect sizes like Z_r = 0.65, a wider range (0.6 < Z_r < 0.7) is required. therefore sometimes the population we used to draw the sample has a Z_r slightly deviated from 0.65. This remains reasonable since the main point of this analysis is to ensure that large Z_r still has a normal sampling distribution, but not focus specifically on achieving Z_r = 0.65.

      We acknowledge that this variability of the range used was not clearly explained and it is not accurate to report “true Z_r = 0.65”. In the revised version, we will address this issue by adding vertical lines to each subplot to indicate the Z_r of the population we used to draw samples, making it easier to check if it aligns with the sampling peak. In addition, we will revise the title to “Sampling distributions of Z_r drawn from strong correlations (Z_r = 0.6-0.7)”. We confirmed that population Z_r and the peak of their sampling distribution remain consistent under both H0 and H1 in all sample sizes with n > 25, and we hope this explanation can fully resolve your concern.

      We agree with the reviewer that claiming Z_r = -1 represents the null hypothesis is not accurate. The circlin Z_r = 0 is better analogous to Pearson’s r = 0 since both represent the mean drawn from the population with the null hypothesis. In contrast, the mean effect size under null will be positive in the raw circlin r, which is one of the important reasons for the transformation. To provide a more accurate interpretation, we will update Table 6 to describe the following strength levels of evidence: no effect (r < 0), null (r = 0), small (r = 0.1), moderate (r = 0.3), and large (r = 0.5).

    1. Joint Public Review:

      Riva et al uncovered the neural substrate underlying the oviposition rhythm in Drosophila melanogaster using a novel device that automates egg collection from individual mated females over the course of multiple days. By systematically knocking down the clock gene period in specific clock neurons the authors show that three cryptochrome (cry) positive dorso-lateral neurons (LNds) present in each hemisphere of the fly brain are critical to generating a female, sex-specific rhythm in oviposition. Interestingly, these neurons are not essential for freerunning locomotor activity. By contrast, the LNvs (lateral ventral neurons), which are essential for freerunning locomotor activity rhythmicity, were not involved in controlling the circadian rhythmicity of oviposition. Thus, this work has identified the first truly sex-specific circadian circuit in Drosophila. Using available Drosophila hemibrain connectome data they identify bidirectional connections between cry-expressing LNd and oviposition-related neurons.

      Strengths:

      This paper established a new semi-automatic device to register egg-laying activity, in Drosophila and found a specific role for a subset of clock neurons in the control of a female-specific circadian behavior. They also lay the groundwork for understanding how these neurons are connected to the neurons that control egg laying.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Controls for the genetic background are incomplete, leaving open the possibility that the observed oviposition timing defects may be due to targeted knockdown of the period (per) gene but from the GAL4, Gal80, and UAS transgenes themselves. To resolve this issue the authors should determine the egg-laying rhythms of the relevant controls (GAL4/+, UAS-RNAi/+, etc); this only needs to be done for those genotypes that produced an arrhythmic egg-laying rhythm.

      (2) Reliance on a single genetic tool to generate targeted disruption of clock function leaves the study vulnerable to associated false positive and false negative effects: a) The per RNAi transgene used may only cause partial knockdown of gene function, as suggested by the persistent rhythmicity observed when per RNAi was targeted to all clock neurons. This could indicate that the results in Fig 2C-H underestimate the phenotypes of targeted disruption of clock function. b) Use of a single per RNAi transgene makes it difficult to rule out that off-target effects contributed significantly to the observed phenotypes. We suggest that the authors repeat the critical experiments using a separate UAS-RNAi line (for period or for a different clock gene), or, better yet, use the dominant negative UAS-cycle transgene produced by the Hardin lab (https://doi.org/10.1038/22566).

      (3) The egg-laying profiles obtained show clear damping/decaying trends which necessitates careful trend removal from the data to make any sense of the rhythm. Further, the detrending approach used by the authors is not tested for artefacts introduced by the 24h moving average used.

      (4) According to the authors the oviposition device cannot sample at a resolution finer than 4 hours, which will compel any experimenter to record egg laying for longer durations to have a suitably long time series which could be useful for circadian analyses.

      (5) Despite reducing the interference caused by manually measuring egg-laying, the rhythm does not improve the signal quality such that enough individual rhythmic flies could be included in the analysis methods used. The authors devise a workaround by combining both strongly and weakly rhythmic (LSpower > 0.2 but less than LSpower at p < 0.05) data series into an averaged time series, which is then tested for the presence of a 16-32h "circadian" rhythm. This approach loses valuable information about the phase and period present in the individual mated females, and instead assumes that all flies have a similar period and phase in their "signal" component while the distribution of the "noise" component varies amongst them. This assumption has not yet been tested rigorously and the evidence suggests a lot more variability in the inter-fly period for the egg-laying rhythm.

      (6) This variability could also depend on the genotype being tested, as the authors themselves observe between their Canton-S and YW wild-type controls for which their egg-laying profiles show clearly different dynamics. Interestingly, the averaged records for these genotypes are not distinguishable but are reflected in the different proportions of rhythmic flies observed. Unfortunately, the authors also do not provide further data on these averaged profiles, as they did for the wild-type controls in Figure 1, when they discuss their clock circuit manipulations using perRNAi. These profiles could have been included in Supplementary figures, where they would have helped the reader decide for themselves what might have been the reason for the loss of power in the LS periodogram for some of these experimental lines.

      (7) By selecting 'the best egg layers' for inclusion in the oviposition analyses an inadvertent bias may be introduced and the results of the assays may not be representative of the whole population.

      (8) An approach that measures rhythmicity for groups of individual records rather than separate individual records is vulnerable to outliers in the data, such as the inclusion of a single anomalous individual record. Additionally, the number of individual records that are included in a group may become a somewhat arbitrary determinant for the observed level of rhythmicity. Therefore, the experimental data used to map the clock neurons responsible for oviposition rhythms would be more convincing if presented alongside individual fly statistics, in the same format as used for Figure 1.

      (9) The features in the experimental periodogram data in Figures 3B and D are consistent with weakened complex rhythmicity rather than arrhythmicity. The inclusion of more individual records in the groups might have provided the added statistical power to demonstrate this. Graphs similar to those in 1G and 1I, might have better illustrated qualitative and quantitative aspects of the oviposition rhythms upon per knockdown via MB122B and Mai179; Pdf-Gal80.

      Wider context:

      The study of the neural basis of oviposition rhythms in Drosophila melanogaster can serve as a model for the analogous mechanisms in other animals. In particular, research in this area can have wider implications for the management of insects with societal impact such as pests, disease vectors, and pollinators. One key aspect of D. melanogaster oviposition that is not addressed here is its strong social modulation (see Bailly et al.. Curr Biol 33:2865-2877.e4. doi:10.1016/j.cub.2023.05.074). It is plausible that most natural oviposition events do not involve isolated individuals, but rather groups of flies. As oviposition is encouraged by aggregation pheromones (e.g., Dumenil et al., J Chem Ecol 2016 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10886-016-0681-3) its propensity changes upon the pre-conditioning of the oviposition substrates, which is a complication in assays of oviposition rhythms that periodically move the flies to fresh substrate.

    2. Author response:

      (1) Controls for the genetic background are incomplete, leaving open the possibility that the observed oviposition timing defects may be due to targeted knockdown of the period (per) gene but from the GAL4, Gal80, and UAS transgenes themselves. To resolve this issue the authors should determine the egg-laying rhythms of the relevant controls (GAL4/+, UAS-RNAi/+, etc); this only needs to be done for those genotypes that produced an arrhythmic egg-laying rhythm.

      We agree with this objection, and in the corrected version we plan to provide the assessment of the egg laying rhythms for the missing GAL4 controls as recommended only for Figure 3.

      (2) Reliance on a single genetic tool to generate targeted disruption of clock function leaves the study vulnerable to associated false positive and false negative effects: a) The per RNAi transgene used may only cause partial knockdown of gene function, as suggested by the persistent rhythmicity observed when per RNAi was targeted to all clock neurons. This could indicate that the results in Fig 2C-H underestimate the phenotypes of targeted disruption of clock function. b) Use of a single per RNAi transgene makes it difficult to rule out that off-target effects contributed significantly to the observed phenotypes. We suggest that the authors repeat the critical experiments using a separate UAS-RNAi line (for period or for a different clock gene), or, better yet, use the dominant negative UAS-cycle transgene produced by the Hardin lab (https://doi.org/10.1038/22566).

      We have recently acquired mutant flies with a dominant negative-cycle transgene (UAS-cycDN, Tanoue et al. 2004), and we plan to repeat our experiments with these mutants, in order to confirm our results.

      (3) The egg-laying profiles obtained show clear damping/decaying trends which necessitates careful trend removal from the data to make any sense of the rhythm. Further, the detrending approach used by the authors is not tested for artefacts introduced by the 24h moving average used.

      In the revised version we will show that the detrending approach used does not introduce any artefacts. The analysis of numerical simulations with an aperiodic stochastic signal superposed to a decaying signal shows that the detrending method used does not result in a spurious periodic signal. Furthermore, we can show that when the underlying signal is rhythmic, the correct period is obtained even when the moving average is a few hours larger or smaller than 24 h.

      (4) According to the authors the oviposition device cannot sample at a resolution finer than 4 hours, which will compel any experimenter to record egg laying for longer durations to have a suitably long time series which could be useful for circadian analyses.

      We apologize for not being clear enough. The device can in principle sample at any desired resolution. Notice, however, that the variable we are analyzing (number of eggs laid by a single female) has only a few possible values, which is one of the features that render the assessment of rhythmicity a particularly difficult task. If egg laying is sampled more often (say, at 2 h intervals) more time points will be available, but the values available for each time point will be much less. We will show an example where we compare both rates (2h and 4h). Even though the 2h sampling reveals the rhythmicity of the time series, the significance of the peaks obtained is less than when sampling at 4h intervals. We have found that a 4h sampling seems to provide the best compromise between frequency of the sampling and discreteness of the variable.

      On the other hand, it is important to stress that sampling frequency and longer durations are not very correlated (see e.g. Cohen et al. Journal of Theoretical Biology 314, pp 182 [2012]). It has been shown that the best way to make accurate predictions of the period of a rhythmic signal is to have a series spanning many cycles, irrespective of the sampling frequency. In other words, it is not true that with a 2h sampling it would be possible to analyze shorter series than with 4h sampling. Unfortunately, egg laying records are usually less than 5 cycles long, which is one of the reasons for the difficulties in the assessment of their rhythmicity.

      (5) Despite reducing the interference caused by manually measuring egg-laying, the rhythm does not improve the signal quality such that enough individual rhythmic flies could be included in the analysis methods used. The authors devise a workaround by combining both strongly and weakly rhythmic (LSpower > 0.2 but less than LSpower at p < 0.05) data series into an averaged time series, which is then tested for the presence of a 16-32h "circadian" rhythm. This approach loses valuable information about the phase and period present in the individual mated females, and instead assumes that all flies have a similar period and phase in their "signal" component while the distribution of the "noise" component varies amongst them. This assumption has not yet been tested rigorously and the evidence suggests a lot more variability in the inter-fly period for the egg-laying rhythm.

      The assumption is difficult to test rigorously, since for individual flies the records seem to be so noisy that no information can be extracted. As shown in the paper, it is even very difficult to assess the presence of rhythmicity at the individual level. We consider that the appearance of a rhythm after averaging several records shows the presence of this rhythm at the individual level. But it could be argued that the presence of rhythmicity in the average record could be due to only a few (or even a single) rhythmic individuals. In order to show that this is probably not the case, in the revised version we will show that, when the individuals that are rhythmic are left out, the average of the remaining flies still shows a rhythm (albeit a weaker one, as was to be expected).

      Regarding our assumption that all flies have the “same” period, the results on Fig. 1 F cannot really rule out this possibility, because with so few cycles, the determination of the period is not very accurate (see e.g. Cohen et al. Journal of Theoretical Biology 314, pp 182 [2012]). In our case, the error for the period is related to the width of the corresponding peak in the periodogram, which is typically 4 hs. In any case, in the revised version we will try to show, by using numerical simulations, that when the individual periods are not the same, but are distributed approximately as in Fig 1F, the average series is still rhythmic with the correct period.

      (6) This variability could also depend on the genotype being tested, as the authors themselves observe between their Canton-S and YW wild-type controls for which their egg-laying profiles show clearly different dynamics. Interestingly, the averaged records for these genotypes are not distinguishable but are reflected in the different proportions of rhythmic flies observed. Unfortunately, the authors also do not provide further data on these averaged profiles, as they did for the wild-type controls in Figure 1, when they discuss their clock circuit manipulations using perRNAi. These profiles could have been included in Supplementary figures, where they would have helped the reader decide for themselves what might have been the reason for the loss of power in the LS periodogram for some of these experimental lines.

      Even though we think that the individual records are in general too noisy to be really informative, we will provide all the individual egg profiles in the Supplementary Material of the revised version, in order to let the reader, check this for herself/himself.

      (7) By selecting 'the best egg layers' for inclusion in the oviposition analyses an inadvertent bias may be introduced and the results of the assays may not be representative of the whole population.

      We agree that this may introduce some bias in the results. But in our opinion this bias is very difficult to avoid, since for females that lay very few eggs, rhythmicity can even be difficult to define (some females can spend a whole day without laying a single egg). On the other hand, even when the results may not be representative of the whole population, they would be representative of the flies that lay most of the eggs in a population, which seems to be very relevant in ecological terms.

      (8) An approach that measures rhythmicity for groups of individual records rather than separate individual records is vulnerable to outliers in the data, such as the inclusion of a single anomalous individual record. Additionally, the number of individual records that are included in a group may become a somewhat arbitrary determinant for the observed level of rhythmicity. Therefore, the experimental data used to map the clock neurons responsible for oviposition rhythms would be more convincing if presented alongside individual fly statistics, in the same format as used for Figure 1.

      The question of possible rhythmic outliers has been addressed above, in question 5, where we discuss why we think that such outliers are not “determinant for the observed level of rhythmicity”. As also mentioned above, even though we think that they are too noisy to be informative, we plan to include all individual profiles in the Supplementary Material.

      (9) The features in the experimental periodogram data in Figures 3B and D are consistent with weakened complex rhythmicity rather than arrhythmicity. The inclusion of more individual records in the groups might have provided the added statistical power to demonstrate this. Graphs similar to those in 1G and 1I, might have better illustrated qualitative and quantitative aspects of the oviposition rhythms upon per knockdown via MB122B and Mai179; Pdf-Gal80.

      We assume that the features mentioned refer to the appearance in the periodograms of two small peaks under the significance lines. We are aware that in the studies of the rhythmicity of locomotor activity such features are usually interpreted as “complex rhythms”, i.e. as evidence of the existence of two different mechanisms producing two different rhythms in the same individual. In our case, however, at least two other possibilities should be taken into account. Since the periodograms we show assess the rhythmicity of the average time series of several individuals, the two small peaks could correspond to the periods of two different subpopulations. Another possibility could be that such peaks are simply an artifact of the method in the analysis of time series that consist of very few cycles (as explained above) and also few points per cycle. A cursory examination of the individual profiles, that will be provided in the new version, do not seem to support any of the first two possibilities mentioned. On the other hand, we will show evidence that the analysis of series that are perfectly random sometimes result in periodograms with some small peaks.

    1. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      In this manuscript, Menegas et al. classify the "control" behavior of captive marmosets. They combine behavioral screening from video recordings with audio and neural recordings (from the striatum) to better define what can be considered a typical behavioral repertoire for captive marmoset monkeys. A range of analyses is presented, investigating various aspects of behavior, such as social interactions and the detection of atypical individuals.

      The manuscript is compelling in many respects, especially due to the richness of the dataset and the breadth of analyses presented. However, a significant issue with the manuscript lies in its writing: the results are conveyed in an overly succinct and superficial manner, and the "Methods" section is nearly absent. Key concepts are often undefined, and the mathematical details underlying the figures are not explained, leaving readers to guess the authors' approach.

      Another issue is the vague use of the term "natural behavior." All data presented here appear to have been collected in small cages with limited climbing opportunities and enrichment. Thus, the authors should refrain from using "natural" to describe these conditions.

      Below, we elaborate further on the lack of methodological detail. Based on these issues, we believe the manuscript, in its current form, does not meet the scientific standards necessary for proper review. We strongly encourage the authors to undertake an extensive revision.

      Major Revision Points:

      The methods and results require significantly more detail. A scientific publication should provide readers with enough information to reproduce the study. Here, the detail level is far too low to fully understand, or reproduce, the study, and in many instances, readers are left to guess how the figure panels were produced. Below is a non-exhaustive list of examples illustrating these issues:

      (1) "we temporarily placed horizontal cage dividers to reduce the total cage size during data collection": What were the resulting (and initial) cage dimensions?

      (2) "After training the network, we hierarchically clustered the latent space": What is the latent space? Based on Figure 2a, it appears related to the network's recurrent layer, but this is not clarified in the text.

      (3) Alpha and perplexity parameters: Please define these terms. Since these concepts appear fundamental, readers should not have to consult external references.

      (4) "We then traced cluster identities across hierarchical levels": What are hierarchical levels?

      (5) "To understand how the input time series data was weighed in the bottleneck layer of the model": What is the bottleneck layer?

      (6) "we measured the average attention allocation to previous time points": The authors should define "attention allocation."

      (7) "we compared each neuron's firing rate distribution to shuffled data based on the overall frequency of each behavior during the session": This description is insufficient to understand the analysis.

      (8) "we hierarchically clustered neurons according to their firing rate enrichment maps": No mathematical explanation is provided for neuron clustering, nor is the concept of a "firing rate enrichment map" clarified.

      (9) "Cluster 4 showed higher activity when neurons were 'alone' or 'active'": This is vague and uses unclear jargon (e.g., "neurons alone"). Additionally, no mathematical explanation is provided for assigning neuronal activity to behavioral states.

      (10) Figure 3f, right-side panels: The analysis seems to involve cage mate positioning, yet no description is provided.

      (11) "we used motion watches to measure activity across all hours": Are these motion-sensitive watches physically attached to the animals? The methodology should be described, including data analysis details.

      This list could continue, but we trust the authors understand the point. There is a wealth of analyses and information in this study, but the descriptions are too superficial. We understand that fully describing each analysis may require significant rewriting, including supplementary figures, and will likely make the manuscript longer. This is entirely acceptable, as the ideas presented here are worth the added rigor.

      "Natural behavior": Typically, the term "natural" suggests that the dataset reflects the range of behaviors exhibited by animals in the wild. Here, however, recordings were made in a small cage with limited climbing opportunities and enrichment. Under these conditions, it's hard to justify describing the behavior as "natural". In a project aimed at classifying the behavioral repertoire of marmoset monkeys and making this dataset accessible to other laboratories, it would be helpful to include more detailed information about the animals' housing conditions. This might include cage sizes, temperature, humidity, and details on food quantities, quality, and feeding times.

      Correlation versus causation: In the section titled "Large-scale data collection reveals variability across days and correlation between cagemates," the authors conclude: "Overall, these results indicate that measurements of animals' behavioral traits depend heavily on their social environment." This interpretation seems incorrect. We know that animal behavior varies throughout the day, with activity peaks typically occurring in the morning and afternoon. Such factors, or other external influences, could induce correlations between animals that are not caused by social interactions.

      Figure 4g: What are we intended to conclude from this analysis?

      Figure 5: Please specify the type of calls analyzed. For example, did you analyze only long-distance calls (aka 'loud phees' or 'shrills')? In "We split the audio data into 5-minute (non-continuous) segments and found that the average call rate in these segments varied from 0 calls per minute to 60 calls per minute (Fig. 5d-e)," does the call rate refer to individual animals or the entire cage?

      "This implies that a high rate of calls in a room can interrupt animals during social resting states and cause them to preferentially exhibit more active/attentive states." Does it? This could simply indicate that more active animals produce more calls.

      "We recorded neural activity in the striatum because it is known to contain diverse signals related to movement and social interactions." While I understand that the authors intend to publish neural data separately, a brief discussion of the striatum's role here would be helpful.

    2. Author response:

      We would like to thank the editors and reviewers for taking the time to help improve our manuscript. We appreciate the feedback and will definitely increase the level of methodological detail in a revised submission.

      Here is a brief summary of our plan to address the points raised by the reviewers. We will respond to the comments in a point-by-point manner when we resubmit a revised manuscript.

      Reviewer 1

      This reviewer raised a question about the 60 Hz frame rate for recording. We agree that increasing the number of cameras and frame rate would improve the tracking quality, but this would come at the cost of scalability. In the current study (and other concurrent studies in the lab), we recorded from 10-20 families simultaneously to try to sample the distribution of behavioral responses to stimuli observed in animals in our colony. This was only possible logistically because of the lightweight equipment design allowing us to record data from animals without large disruptions to their home-cage environment.

      One strategy for acquiring higher-resolution data is to build a small number of enclosures that are fully surrounded by cameras, and to cycle animals through these enclosures (1). However, this strategy limits throughput by reducing the number of animals per day that can be studied. If the size and cost of cameras and computers decreases in the future, then this recording strategy will be scalable to the whole-colony level. For our current study and analysis, we are limited by the resolution of our dataset. We do believe that our data (although not a perfect 3d reconstruction or an extremely high frame rate) is sufficient to label behavioral states with high accuracy. We will add a figure to more clearly show that behavioral state data can be accurately inferred from this imperfect data, which has also been recently highlighted by other groups (2).

      Additionally, with recent progress in the application of deep learning to animal pose tracking, new models can infer 3d pose dynamics from 2d data (3) and leverage spatiotemporal structure to clean up noisy data (4). We believe that other groups will be able to use these types of approaches to extract much more value from this dataset. So, in summary, we do understand the concern related to reconstruction quality and will 1) more clearly define the usefulness of our current models, 2) release our data and code so that others can build upon it or repurpose it, and 3) plan future experiments with higher camera count and frame rate as permitted by logistical constraints. 

      Reviewer 2

      This reviewer asked for an increased level of methodological detail. We will try to address this in a few ways:

      (1) Code and data sharing. We believe that many of the questions related to the methodology will be best answered by sharing the data and code directly. Because there is a large amount of code associated with this manuscript, it is impractical to list every step and every parameter in the paper. Along with our revised manuscript, we will make our data and code publicly available. That said, we will improve our description of key parameters in the paper as the reviewer suggested.

      (2) More detailed Methods section. The reviewer asked us to provide more methodological detail. We understand that this is currently a weakness of our manuscript, and we will focus on addressing it. For instance, the reviewer rightly points out that we did not describe the motion watches used to generate the data in Figure S7. We will address this.

      (3) Simplify the manuscript. The paper currently has 22 figures, and further analysis could be done based on the results shown in any of them. For instance, this reviewer asked us to add a comparison across females and males (similar to our comparison of juveniles and adults). While we plan to add that analysis, we recognize that there are several figures/panels that are not closely related to our intended goal of describing the patterns we found in our large dataset. We will simplify the manuscript by removing some excess figures/panels and focus on describing the parts of the analysis that are crucial to our conclusions in greater detail.

      (4) More careful language. This reviewer pointed out that there were some inaccuracies with our descriptive language. For instance, we used the term "natural" behavior to describe the behavior of animals in captivity, which may more accurately be described as their home-cage behavior. We will be more careful to align our language to the standard for the field. For instance, several studies refer to unrestrained behavior in a laboratory setting as "spontaneous" behavior rather than "natural" behavior (5). In our case, the data consists of both spontaneously occurring behavior and responses to a set of stimuli. We will make sure that the descriptions are more precise in the revised manuscript.

      (1) Bala, P. C. et al. Automated markerless pose estimation in freely moving macaques with OpenMonkeyStudio. Nat Commun 11, (2020).

      (2) Weinreb, C. et al. Keypoint-MoSeq: parsing behavior by linking point tracking to pose dynamics. bioRxiv (2023) doi:10.1101/2023.03.16.532307.

      (3) Gosztolai, A. et al. LiftPose3D, a deep learning-based approach for transforming two-dimensional to three-dimensional poses in laboratory animals. Nat Methods 18, 975–981 (2021).

      (4) Wu, A. et al. Deep Graph Pose: a semi-supervised deep graphical model for improved animal pose tracking. Adv Neural Inf Process Syst 33, 6040–6052 (2020).

      (5) Levy, D. R. et al. Mouse spontaneous behavior reflects individual variation rather than estrous state. Curr Biol 33, 1358-1364.e4 (2023).

    1. Note: This response was posted by the corresponding author to Review Commons. The content has not been altered except for formatting.

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      Reply to the reviewers

      Reply to the Reviewers

      We thank all the reviewers for their time and their constructive criticism. We are encouraged by the overall positive and enthusiastic responses from the reviewers. We have taken all comments and suggestions seriously and revised the manuscript. These revisions include adding more explanation for the meaning of synaptic learning rules, language definitions, and model characteristics and limitations with more detailed figure legends. We are confident that we have addressed all the reviewer’s concerns by incorporating the reviewer’s suggestions into the revised manuscript. All changes are indicated in red font in the revised manuscript. The point-by-point response to all concerns raised by the reviewers follows. The line numbers indicated here refer to those in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #1

      Major comments:

      1. Introduction, line 64 and further: An important omission in the introduction is that several studies have shown that sleep deprivation, i.e., extended wakefulness, results in a loss of spines in some brain regions such as the hippocampus, which is directly opposing the SHY hypothesis (for review, see Raven et al. Sleep Med Rev 39: 3-11, 2018).

      Response:

      We appreciate the reviewer’s valuable comment. Indeed, as correctly pointed out, several studies have reported synaptic weakening in the hippocampus and cortical regions following sleep deprivation, which appears to contradict the SHY.

      We have incorporated this point into the introduction section (lines 64-67), adding several articles, including Raven et al., the reviewer suggested.

      1. Introduction, line 85-87: A short explanation of what exactly the anti-Hebbian and anti-STDP rules are, is important here. It may seem obvious to the authors, but it is best to spell it out for the potential broad readership interested in this paper.

      Response:

      We appreciate the reviewer’s important suggestion.

      Previous studies reported that Anti-Hebbian plasticity, which leads to depression when synapses are presented with correlated activity, serves critical functions in the discrimination of specific spike sequences in the cortico-striatal synapses (G. Vignoud et al., Commun. Biol, 2024) and the detection of novel stimuli in mormyrid fish (P. D. Roberts et al., Biol. Cybern, 2008; P. D. Roberts et al, Front. Comput. Neurosci, 2010).

      We have added the explanations for Anti-Hebbian and Anti-STDP rules into the introduction section (lines 87-89).

      1. Results, line 116, 129/130, 333, 395, 400, figure captions: Pleases explain what is meant with the terms 'pre-neuronal synapse' and 'post-neuronal synapses'.

      Response:

      We appreciate the reviewer’s advice. We have replaced ‘pre-neuronal synapse’ and ‘post-neuronal synapse’ with ‘pre-synaptic’、’post-synaptic’, respectively, for readability in the Results section (lines 118-119, 131-133, 368, 371, 432, 436 and 437) and Figure legends.

      1. Results, line 121-124 say that synaptic efficacy became higher in sleep-like states than in wake-like states under Hebbian and STDP learning rules and opposite results were observed with anti-Hebbian and anti-STDP learning rules. While these relative differences are indeed visible in Figure 1H, the figure also suggests that synaptic efficacy during sleep was largely independent of the average firing frequency. In other words, synaptic efficacy seems to be dependent on firing frequency only during wakefulness. Is that correct?

      Response:

      The reviewer raised an important point. As shown in Fig. 1H, synaptic efficacy during sleep appears to be largely independent of mean firing rates. Here, the firing rates were adjusted by varying Down-state durations. Regarding the relationship between firing patterns and synaptic efficacy, synaptic efficacy is influenced not only by firing frequency but also by how firing patterns are generated. When firing rates are adjusted by changing ISI, synaptic efficacy during sleep also increases with higher firing rates as wake-like patterns (Fig. 5). In Fig. 2D and E, we demonstrated that the synaptic efficacy during sleep becomes higher than during wakefulness regardless of whether the spike patterns were generated with changing Down-state duration or ISI, assuming the same mean firing rates during the sleep-like and wake-like states. We have clarified this point by adding the explanation in the Discussion section (lines 318-323).

      1. Results, line 199 and down model the effect of differences in mean firing rate between sleep and waking, which is a crucial addition and more realistic approach for most brain regions that have lower average firing rates during sleep. It is interesting that in this case the relative effects of sleep and wakefulness can change direction, depending on the average firing frequency. Would the authors argue that this may even result in opposite effects in different brain regions after waking or sleep deprivation?

      Response:

      We appreciate the reviewer raising the interesting point. Our model predicted that the direction of synaptic changes depends on learning rules and firing rates. This prediction indicated that different brain regions may exhibit synaptic changes even in opposite directions after prolonged wakefulness or sleep deprivation. For example, under Hebbian and STDP, our model predicted that brain regions with firing rates increased during wakefulness or sleep deprivation compared to sleep would follow SHY, while brain regions where firing rates remain unchanged or decreased compared to sleep would follow WISE. The experimental validation of these predictions, focusing on brain regions with different activation states during wakefulness, is an interesting future work. We have clarified this point into the Discussion section (lines 260-262).

      1. Figure 1: The caption needs more details to help understand the different panels. some work. (B) What is a post-neuronal synapse? (C) How exactly is synaptic efficacy defined? (E) Not totally clear what the colored top panels represent.

      Response:

      We sincerely appreciate the reviewer’s thoughtful feedback. We agreed that Figure 1 required a more thorough explanation. In response, we have expanded the figure legend to provide more detailed information for readers to easily understand.

      1. Figure 5B. Since this appears to be a graphical abstract and unified framework for all the modelled parameters and learning rules, should this not be a separate figure?

      __Response: __We thank the reviewer for the helpful suggestion. We have renumbered Figure 5B as Figure 6.

      1. Figures captions: The information provided in the figure captions is in many cases quite minimal and does not reflect the complexity of some of the figure panels. This often makes it hard for a reader to extract all the relevant information without thumbing back and forth between figures, captions and main text. I strongly suggest to add more detail to the figure captions to make them more stand-alone and self-explanatory.

      __Response: __We sincerely appreciate the reviewer’s significant feedback. We have added detailed explanations in the figure legends, including Supplementary Figures, for readers to understand easily.

      Reviewer #2

      Major comments:

      1. I am not qualified to review this manuscript because I'm not sufficiently familiar with the type of modelling performed here and the specific use of terms. For example, without providing any explanation, I cannot reconstruct whether the estimates of synaptic efficacy (eq.1) are valid and applicable to the questions asked. I do have 2 general comments. I do find the premise of WISE intriguing and understand the attractiveness of the idea of opposing 'WISE' to SHY. Nevertheless, SHY is a theory that does not discount the occurrence of synaptic strengthening during sleep. It is rather that during sleep there is a net down-scaling. Therefore, the assumptions, as they are presented here, are confusing the issue.

      Response:

      We are deeply grateful that the reviewer found WISE intriguing and appreciate the insightful comment. We agree that SHY does not deny the occurrence of synaptic strengthening during sleep, but rather proposes a net downward scaling under the assumption of the overall synaptic homeostasis. In the present study, we assumed that SHY describes a net downscaling during sleep (and does not deny the occurrence of synaptic strengthening of some synapses during sleep) while WISE describes a net upscaling during sleep (and does not deny the occurrence of synaptic weakening of some synapses during sleep). Both SHY and WISE fulfill synaptic homeostasis. For example, SHY upscales synaptic strength during wakefulness and downscales during sleep to achieve synaptic homeostasis. On the other hand, WISE upscales synaptic strength during sleep and downscales during wakefulness __to achieve synaptic homeostasis. Our study demonstrated that __WISE is compatible with Hebbian and STDP learning rules when average neuron firing frequency is similar between sleep and wakefulness, and SHY is not compatible with Hebbian and STDP learning rules, but rather compatible with Anti-Hebbian and __Anti-STDP __learning rules.

      We agreed with the reviewer that the lack of an explicit definition of SHY and WISE in the context of the present study could cause confusion for readers. Therefore, we have added a sentence to clarify SHY and WISE in the present study in the first paragraph of the Results section (lines 127-128), specifically defining them in terms of relative net synaptic changes within local neural network.

      1. SHY was, in part, inspired by a type of plasticity that is not considered here, namely synaptic homeostasis. Would adding such a mechanism to the model alter any of the predictions?"

      __Response: __

      We appreciate the reviewer raising an important point on synaptic homeostasis. In this study, we did not explicitly include synaptic homeostasis in the preposition but consider synaptic homeostasis in the definitions of SHY and WISE. For example, we assume that SHY upscales synaptic strength during wakefulness and downscales during sleep to achieve synaptic homeostasis while WISE upscales synaptic strength during sleep and downscales during wakefulness to achieve synaptic homeostasis. Importantly, since both SHY and WISE can achieve synaptic homeostasis, there are two types of synaptic homeostasis. In our study, WISE-type synaptic homeostasis is compatible with Hebbian and STDP learning rules when average neuron firing frequency is similar between sleep and wakefulness, and SHY-type synaptic homeostasis is compatible with Anti-Hebbian and __Anti-STDP __learning rules. Since our studies already consider two types of synaptic homeostasis, adding the further mechanism of synaptic homeostasis in the preposition would not alter our predictions. We described these points in the Model characteristics and limitations part in the Discussion section (lines 332-339).

      Reviewer #3

      Major comments:

      1. This is a well-written manuscript that is easily to follow and amply illustrated. The study seems very exciting but unfortunately I am not a mathematician so I cannot attest to the veracity or originality of the model. Assuming it is robust, it does appear to account for a quite a few anomalies (and inaccuracies depicted in textbooks). It would be helpful to discuss the limitations of other models that have been suggested to synaptic functions of sleep.

      __Response: __

      We appreciated the reviewer’s constructive suggestions. Some computational studies have investigated synaptic changes in neural networks under STDP protocols using Ca2+-based plasticity models (M. Graupner et al., PNAS, 2012; G. Chindemi et al., Nat. Commun, 2022), while other studies have examined how SWO affects synaptic plasticity under STDP conditions (T. Tadros et al., J.Neurosci, 2022). However, these previous studies were limited to a single synaptic learning rule or firing pattern. Our study is the first to comprehensively investigate synaptic dynamics during the sleep-wake cycle by integrating a Ca2+-based plasticity model to represent various types of synaptic learning rules and various simulated sleep-wake firing patterns.

      We have added the sentences related to the reviewer’s comments in the Model characteristics and limitations part in the Discussion section (lines 306-312).

      1. Much of the neurophysiological data comes from recordings in rodents, so the model is simulating rat EEG signatures-how readily applicable is this to the human condition? Indeed, how readily can they compare between mouse and rat? The authors should expand on this in the discussion section.

      Another potential weakness or limitation is the unanswered question of the model can account for sleep/wake changes in other areas of the cortex or thalamus etc.

      Does this model apply equally to males and females?

      __Response: __

      We appreciate the reviewer for raising this significant point. As the reviewer pointed out, we generated firing patterns using parameters derived from rat firing patterns (B. O. Watson et al., Neuron, 2016), such as ISI, Up-state duration, and Down-state duration. While we started our simulations from those parameter sets, we tested a range of different values for each parameter and found consistent results (detailed in Supplementary Materials, Generation of sleep and wake-like firing patterns). The ranges of Up-state and Down-state durations during SWO in mice, rats, and cats are approximately 100-500 milliseconds (M. Steriade et al., J. Neurophysiol, 2001; V. Crunelli et al., Pflugers Arch, 2012), while in humans, Up-state durations range from 250-1000 milliseconds (B. A. Riedner et al., Sleep, 2007), all of which fall within the ranges examined in Figs. 2 D and E. Similarly, wake-state ISI across various species typically range from 2-100 milliseconds (M. Steriade et al., J. Neurophysiol, 2001; G. Maimon et al., Neuron, 2009), mostly within the scope covered in Fig. 2E. Therefore, we suppose our finding in the present study captured universal aspects of synaptic dynamic in the sleep and wake cycles regardless of species, brain region, or sex.

      We have added the description in the Model characteristics and limitations part in the Discussion section (lines 312-331).

      Minor comments:

      Minor typo: ref. 24 is missing page and volume numbers.

      __Response: __

      Thank you for pointing out this typo. We corrected this by adding the page and volume numbers in Ref. 28 in the revised manuscript.

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      This study is focused on a population of neurons in the mouse parasubthalamic nucleus (pSTN) that express Tackhykinin1 (Tac1). This gene has been used before to target pSTN for functional circuit studies because it is fairly selective for pSTN in this region, though it targets only a subset of pSTN neurons. Prior work has shown that activity in these neurons can impact motivated behaviors, including feeding and drinking behaviors, and that their activity is associated with aversion or avoidance behaviors. While not breaking much new ground, this study adds to that work by making use of a 2-way active avoidance assay, where a CS predicts a US (footshock), that the mice can escape. Using fiber photometry the authors show convincing evidence that Tac1 neurons in pSTN increase their activity in response to a US footshock, and that after some pairings the neurons will start responding to the CS too, though to a lesser extent than the US. Their most important data shows that either ablation or optogenetic inhibition of these cells can hugely block the active avoidance (escape) behavior, suggesting these neurons are key for the performance of this task, which they interpret as key for learning the task (but see more below). They show that optogenetic stimulation is aversive in a real-time place assay, and when paired with footshock can enhance active avoidance behavior. Finally, they show that Tac1 pSTN axons in PVT recapitulate these effects while showing that axons in CEA or PBN may only recapitulate some of these effects (more below). Overall I think the data is solid and shows that the activity of Tac1 pSTN neurons in the 2 way active avoidance task is causally related to avoidance behavior in the direction that would be predicted by recent literature. However, I think the authors overstate the conclusions in the title, abstract, and text. I do not think the data make a strong case for a role for these cells in learning, at least in any classical sense, as used in the title and abstract and elsewhere. Also the statement in the abstract that the pSTN mediates its effects 'differentially' through its downstream targets is not convincingly supported by data.

      Major concerns:

      (1) The authors infer that the activity in the Tac1 pSTN neurons is necessary for aversive or avoidance 'learning'. But this is not well defined, what exactly does that mean and what types of evidence would support or falsify such a hypothesis? Moreover, the authors show convincingly, and in line with prior reports, that these cells are activated by aversive stimuli (here footshock), and that activation of these cells is sufficient to induce avoidance behavior. Because manipulation of these cells can serve as a primary negative reinforcer, it becomes even more challenging and important to explain how experiments that manipulate these cells while measuring behavior/performance can discriminate between changes in: (1) primary aversion, (2) motivation to avoid, (3) associative learning, or (4) memory/retrieval. The authors seem to favor #3, but they don't make a clear case for this point of view or else what they mean by 'avoidance learning'. In my opinion, the data do not well discriminate between possibilities 1 through 3. The authors should clarify their logic and temper their conclusions throughout.

      (2) Abstract line 37 is not well supported. The authors focus mostly on pSTN projections to PVT and show that the measurements or manipulation of these axons recapitulates the effects seen with pSTN cell bodies. The authors do fewer studies of axons in CeA and PBN, but do find that they can recapitulate the effects with opsin inhibition, but detect no effects with opsin stimulation. However, the lack of effect with opsin stimulation in Figure S7a-e proves very little on its own. It could be technical, due to inadequate expression or functional efficacy. It is not supported by histological and functional evidence that the manipulation was effective. Overall I can only conclude that the projections to these regions might be very similar (based on the inhibition data), or might be a little different. The data are thus inadequate to support the authors' claim that the pSTN mediates learning differentially through its downstream targets.

      Other concerns:

      (3) Line 93 is not adequately supported by data in Figure 1b. Additional data is needed that shows expression across cases, including any spread that may be visible when zooming out from pSTN. Additional methods are needed to indicate what exclusion criteria were applied and how many mice were excluded. These data could help support the statement on line 93 that expression was largely restricted within pSTN.

      (4) From the results and methods it is not clear where the GFP signal would come from in the mice expressing Casp3 for the ablation studies. It is therefore not clear if the absence of GFP should be taken as evidence of cell loss. For example, it is not clear if multiple vectors were used, if volumes and titers were carefully matched between control groups, or if competition/occlusion between AAVs could be ruled out. It is also not clear how this was quantified, that is how many sections/subjects and how counting was done. It is not clear how long was waited between the AAV infusion, behavior, and euthanasia, perhaps especially important for the ablation done after avoidance learning occurred.

      (5) The authors should consider showing individual measurements and not just mean/sem wherever feasible, for example, to support the statement on line 141 that 'all ablated mice showed...'.

      (6) S3 is an important control for interpreting data in Figure 2d-i. Something similar is needed to support the inferences made in 2j-u. The very strong effect showing a lack of active avoidance in response to CS or the US when pSTN Tac1 neurons are inhibited during CS or during US suggests that something gross may be going on, such as a gross motor or sensory response that supersedes the effect of footshock. The authors do not comment on whether there are any gross behavioral responses to the inhibition, but an experiment as in S3 is needed, for example, to show that behavior is intact during pSTN inhibition if delivered after the mice already learned to associate CS with US.

      (7) The authors use 100 shocks of 0.8 mA for 7 days. I think this is quite strong and in the pSTN inhibition experiments it seems to be functionally 'inescapable' and could thus produce behaviors similar to 'learned helplessness'. Can the authors consider whether this might contribute to the striking findings they observed in their opsin inhibition assays?

      (8) The description of the experiment in S5 is inadequate. What are the adjacent areas? Where do the authors see spread? The use of the word 'case' in figure S5 implies an individual case, but the legend says 5 mice were used for 'case 1' and 3 mice were used for 'case 2'. The use of the word 'off-target in the figure implies that the expression was of the intended target. But the text of results and methods implies it was intentional targeting of unnamed and unshown adjacent regions. This should be clarified.

      (9) The authors suggest the CPA study is divergent from Serra et al 2023. Though I think this could be due to how the conditioning was done, it would be helpful for the authors to include less processed data. This would aid in possible interpretations for any divergences across studies. Can the authors include raw data (in seconds of time spent) in each compartment for each group across baseline and test days?

    2. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The manuscript by Hu et. al presents a clearly-designed examination of the role of tachykinin1-expressing neurons in the parasubthalamic nucleus of the lateral posterior hypothalamus (PTSN) in active avoidance learning. These glutamatergic neurons have previously been implicated in responding to negative stimuli. This manuscript expands the current understanding of PTSNTac1 neurons in learned responses to threats by showing their role in encoding and mediating the active avoidance response. The authors first use bulk fiber photometry imaging to show the encoding of the active avoidance procedure, followed by cell-type specific manipulations of PTSNTac1 neurons during active avoidance. Finally, they show that encoding and mediation of active avoidance in a downstream target of PTSNTac1 neurons, the PVT/intermediodorsal nuclei of the dorsal thalamus (IMD), has the same effect as what was discovered in the cell body. This contrasts other output regions of the PTSN, such as the PBN and CeA, which were not found to promote active avoidance learning. The experiments presented were well-designed to support the conclusions of the authors, however, the manuscript is missing several key control experiments and supplemental information to support their main findings.

      Strengths:

      The manuscript provides information on a brain region and downstream target that mediates active avoidance learning. The manuscript provides valuable information via necessity and sufficiency experiments to show the role of the population of interest (PTSNTac1 neurons) in active avoidance learning. The authors also performed most behavior experiments in male and female mice, with adequate power to address potential sex differences in the control of active avoidance by PTSNTac1 neurons. Finally, the manuscript provides valuable information about the specificity of the PTSNTac1 downstream target in regulating active avoidance learning, identifying the PVT/intermediodorsal nuclei of the dorsal thalamus as the key target and ruling out the PBN and CeA.

      Weaknesses:

      However, several main conclusions of the paper must be interpreted carefully due to missing or inadequate control experiments and histological verification.

      (1) Inadequate presentation of viral localization. The authors state that expression was "largely restricted within PSTN" however there is no quantification of the amount of viral expression beyond the target region. Given that Tac1 is expressed in neighboring regions, it is critical to show the viral expression and fiber implant location data for all animals included in the figures. Furthermore, criteria for inclusion and exclusion based on mistargeting should be delineated. This should also be clearly outlined for the experiments in Figure S5, where "behavioral effects of activation of sparsely Tac1-expressing neurons in two adjacent areas of PSTN" was tested but the location of viral expression in those cases is unclear.

      (2) Lack of motion artifact correction with isosbestic signal for GCamp recordings. It is appreciated that the authors included a separate EGFP-expressing group to compare to the GCamp-expressing group, however, additional explanation is required for the methods used to analyze the raw fluorescent signal. Namely, were fluorescent signals isosbestic-corrected prior to calculating ΔF/F? If no isosbestic signal was used to correct motion artifacts within a recording session, additional explanation is needed to explain how this was addressed. The lack of motion artifacts in the EGFP signal in a separate cohort is inadequate to answer this caveat as motion artifacts are within-animal.

      (3) Missing control experiment demonstrating intact locomotor performance in caspase ablation experiments. The authors use caspase ablation of PTSNTac1 neurons prior to active avoidance learning to appraise the necessity of this cell population. However, a control experiment showing intact locomotor ability in ablated mice was not performed.

      (4) Missing control experiment demonstrating [lack of] valence with PTSN silencing manipulations. The authors performed a real-time and conditioned place preference experiments for ChR2-expressing mice (Fig 3M) and found stimulation to be negatively-valenced and generate an aversive memory, respectively. Absent this control experiment with silencing, an alternative conclusion remains possible that optogenetic silencing via GtACR2 created nonspecific location preferences in the active avoidance apparatus, confounding the interpretation of those results.

      (5) Incomplete analysis of sex differences. Data in female mice is conspicuously missing from inhibition experiments. The rationale for exclusion from this dataset would be useful for the interpretation of the other noted sex differences.

    3. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study by Hu et al. examined the role of tachykinin1 (Tac1)-expressing neurons in the para subthalamic nucleus (PSTH) in active avoidance of electric shocks. Bulk recording of PSTH Tac1 neurons or axons of these neurons in PVT showed activation of a shock-predicting tone and shock itself. Ablation of these neurons or optogenetic manipulation of these neurons or their projection to PVT suggests the causality of this pathway with the learning of active avoidance.

      Strengths:

      This work found an understudied pathway potentially important for active avoidance of electric shocks. Experiments were thoroughly done and the presentation is clear. The amount of discussion and references are appropriate.

      Weaknesses:

      Critical control experiments are missing for most experiments, and statistical tests are not clear or not appropriate in most parts. Details are shown below.

      (1) There are some control experiments missing. Notably, optogenetic manipulation is not verified in any experiments. It is important to verify whether neural activation with optogenetic activation is at the physiological level or supra-physiological level, and whether optogenetic inhibition does not cause unwanted activity patterns such as rebound activation at the critical time window.

      (2) Neural ablation with caspase was confirmed by GFP expression. However, from the present description, a different virus to express EITHER caspase or GFP was injected, and then the numbers of GFP-expressing neurons were compared. It is not clear how this can detect ablation.

      (3) In many places, statistical approaches are not clear from the present figures, figure legends, and Methods. It seems that most statistics were performed by pooling trials, but it is not described, or multiple "n" are described. For example, it is explicitly mentioned in Figure 4H, "n = 3 mice, n = 213 avoidance trials and n = 87 failure trials". The authors should not pool trials, but should perform across-animal tests in this and other figures, and "n" for statistical tests should be clearly described in each plot.

      (4) It is also unclear how the test types were selected. For example, in Figure 1K and O with similar datasets, one is examined by a paired test and the other is by an unpaired test. Since each animal has both early vs late trials, and avoidance vs failure trials, paired tests across animals should be performed for both.

      (5) It is also strange to show violin plots for only 6 animals. They should instead show each dot for each animal, connected with a line to show consistent increases of activity in late vs early trials and avoidance vs failure trials.

      (6) To tell specificity in avoidance learning, it is better to show escape in the current trials with optogenetic manipulation.

      (7) For place aversion, % time decrease across days was tested. It is better to show the original number before normalization, as well.

      (8) For anatomical results in Figure S6, it is important to show images with lower magnification, too.

      (9) Inactivation of either pathway from PSTH to PBN or to CeA also inhibits active avoidance, but the authors conclude that these effects are "partial" compared to the inactivation of PSTH to PVT. It is not clear how the effects were compared since the effects of PSTH-CeA inactivation are quite strong, comparable to PSTH-PVT inactivation by eye. They should quantify the effects to conclude the difference.

      (10) Supplementary table 1: as mentioned above, n for statistical tests should be clearer.

    4. Author response:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      This study is focused on a population of neurons in the mouse parasubthalamic nucleus (pSTN) that express Tackhykinin1 (Tac1). This gene has been used before to target pSTN for functional circuit studies because it is fairly selective for pSTN in this region, though it targets only a subset of pSTN neurons. Prior work has shown that activity in these neurons can impact motivated behaviors, including feeding and drinking behaviors, and that their activity is associated with aversion or avoidance behaviors. While not breaking much new ground, this study adds to that work by making use of a 2-way active avoidance assay, where a CS predicts a US (footshock), that the mice can escape. Using fiber photometry, the authors show convincing evidence that Tac1 neurons in pSTN increase their activity in response to a US footshock, and that after some pairings the neurons will start responding to the CS too, though to a lesser extent than the US. Their most important data shows that either ablation or optogenetic inhibition of these cells can hugely block the active avoidance (escape) behavior, suggesting these neurons are key for the performance of this task, which they interpret as key for learning the task (but see more below). They show that optogenetic stimulation is aversive in a real-time place assay, and when paired with footshock can enhance active avoidance behavior. Finally, they show that Tac1 pSTN axons in PVT recapitulate these effects while showing that axons in CEA or PBN may only recapitulate some of these effects (more below). Overall I think the data is solid and shows that the activity of Tac1 pSTN neurons in the 2 way active avoidance task is causally related to avoidance behavior in the direction that would be predicted by recent literature. However, I think the authors overstate the conclusions in the title, abstract, and text. I do not think the data make a strong case for a role for these cells in learning, at least in any classical sense, as used in the title and abstract and elsewhere. Also, the statement in the abstract that the pSTN mediates its effects 'differentially' through its downstream targets is not convincingly supported by data.

      We are very pleased that Reviewer 1 thought our data is solid.

      Major concerns:

      (1) The authors infer that the activity in the Tac1 pSTN neurons is necessary for aversive or avoidance 'learning'. But this is not well defined, what exactly does that mean and what types of evidence would support or falsify such a hypothesis? Moreover, the authors show convincingly, and in line with prior reports, that these cells are activated by aversive stimuli (here footshock), and that activation of these cells is sufficient to induce avoidance behavior. Because manipulation of these cells can serve as a primary negative reinforcer, it becomes even more challenging and important to explain how experiments that manipulate these cells while measuring behavior/performance can discriminate between changes in: (1) primary aversion, (2) motivation to avoid, (3) associative learning, or (4) memory/retrieval. The authors seem to favor #3, but they don't make a clear case for this point of view or else what they mean by 'avoidance learning'. In my opinion, the data do not well discriminate between possibilities 1 through 3. The authors should clarify their logic and temper their conclusions throughout.

      Thank you Reviewer 1 for providing us insightful suggestions. Based on our fiber photometry data that the activities of PSTN Tac1+ neurons show a significant increase in CS-evoked calcium fluorescent signals in late trials relative to those in early trials (Figure 1H-K) and our optogenetic inhibition experiments during CS (Figure 2N-Q), these results illustrate that the activities of PSTN Tac1+ neurons are modulated by learning and are required for active avoidance learning. Moreover, PSTN Tac1+ neurons are activated by footshock and activation of these cells is sufficient to induce avoidance behavior. These findings demonstrate that PSTN Tac1+ neurons encode aversive information. Together, our current data support that PSTN Tac1+ neurons encode both aversive event and its predicting cue. We will clarify our conclusions in the revised manuscript.

      (2) Abstract line 37 is not well supported. The authors focus mostly on pSTN projections to PVT and show that the measurements or manipulation of these axons recapitulates the effects seen with pSTN cell bodies. The authors do fewer studies of axons in CeA and PBN, but do find that they can recapitulate the effects with opsin inhibition, but detect no effects with opsin stimulation. However, the lack of effect with opsin stimulation in Figure S7a-e proves very little on its own. It could be technical, due to inadequate expression or functional efficacy. It is not supported by histological and functional evidence that the manipulation was effective. Overall, I can only conclude that the projections to these regions might be very similar (based on the inhibition data), or might be a little different. The data are thus inadequate to support the authors' claim that the pSTN mediates learning differentially through its downstream targets.

      In the revised version of manuscript, we will provide more histological and functional evidence for the PSTN-to-CeA and PSTN-to-PBN circuits to support our conclusion on the functional roles of these downstream targets. Similar with our anterograde experiment that the PSTN densely projects to CeA and PBN (Figure S6), optogenetic activation and inhibition experiments showed dense axonal terminals in the CeA and PBN from the PSTN and this line of data will be included in the revised manuscript. In addition, we will further examine these circuits by investigating the functional roles of CeA-projecting or PBN-Projecting PSTN neurons during 2-way active avoidance task.

      Other concerns:

      (3) Line 93 is not adequately supported by data in Figure 1b. Additional data is needed that shows expression across cases, including any spread that may be visible when zooming out from pSTN. Additional methods are needed to indicate what exclusion criteria were applied and how many mice were excluded. These data could help support the statement on line 93 that expression was largely restricted within pSTN.

      In the revised version of manuscript, we will provide larger example images containing pSTN and its adjacent areas to demonstrate that the viral expression is well restricted into this brain area. Moreover, we will provide detailed information on the exclusion criteria and the number of mice excluded in the Method section.   

      (4) From the results and methods it is not clear where the GFP signal would come from in the mice expressing Casp3 for the ablation studies. It is therefore not clear if the absence of GFP should be taken as evidence of cell loss. For example, it is not clear if multiple vectors were used, if volumes and titers were carefully matched between control groups, or if competition/occlusion between AAVs could be ruled out. It is also not clear how this was quantified, that is how many sections/subjects and how counting was done. It is not clear how long was waited between the AAV infusion, behavior, and euthanasia, perhaps especially important for the ablation done after avoidance learning occurred.

      I totally agree with Reviewer 1’s concerns. We will perform immunohistochemistry or in situ hybridization for Tachykinin-1 itself and then measure colocalization of GFP with Tachykinin-1 inside and outside of the PTSN, and the degree of absence of Tachykinin-1 in Casp mice. In addition, we will provide more detailed experimental information in the revised manuscript.

      (5) The authors should consider showing individual measurements and not just mean/sem wherever feasible, for example, to support the statement on line 141 that 'all ablated mice showed...'.

      Thank you Reviewer 1 for this suggestion. We will re-plot the data as individual measurements in the revised manuscript.

      (6) S3 is an important control for interpreting data in Figure 2d-i. Something similar is needed to support the inferences made in 2j-u. The very strong effect showing a lack of active avoidance in response to CS or the US when pSTN Tac1 neurons are inhibited during CS or during US suggests that something gross may be going on, such as a gross motor or sensory response that supersedes the effect of footshock. The authors do not comment on whether there are any gross behavioral responses to the inhibition, but an experiment as in S3 is needed, for example, to show that behavior is intact during pSTN inhibition if delivered after the mice already learned to associate CS with US.

      Thank you Reviewer 1 for this insightful suggestion. During the review process, we have performed this line of experiment as in Figure S3. We measured the behavioral responses during pSTN optogenetic inhibition after the mice already learned to associate CS with US and found most GtACR-expressing mice showed unaffected avoidance learning. This data will be included in the revised manuscript.

      (7) The authors use 100 shocks of 0.8 mA for 7 days. I think this is quite strong and in the pSTN inhibition experiments it seems to be functionally 'inescapable' and could thus produce behaviors similar to 'learned helplessness'. Can the authors consider whether this might contribute to the striking findings they observed in their opsin inhibition assays?

      I agree with the Reviewer 1’s comment on the string findings in the optogenetic inhibition results. Indeed, based on the results on days 1 and 2, optogenetic inhibition of PSTN tac1+ neurons has significantly blocked GtACR-expressing animals’ behavioral performance during 2-way active avoidance task. To examine whether the effect by optogenetic inhibition of these neurons could possibly decline with prolonged training, we conducted additional 5-day training. We will discuss and add this comment in the revised manuscript.

      (8) The description of the experiment in S5 is inadequate. What are the adjacent areas? Where do the authors see spread? The use of the word 'case' in figure S5 implies an individual case, but the legend says 5 mice were used for 'case 1' and 3 mice were used for 'case 2'. The use of the word 'off-target in the figure implies that the expression was of the intended target. But the text of results and methods implies it was intentional targeting of unnamed and unshown adjacent regions. This should be clarified.

      We will add histological images and clarify these comments in the revised manuscript. The purpose of this experiment is to illustrate that even slightly spreading ChR2 viruses into Tac1+ neurons of the adjacent areas of the PSTN did not result in behavioral changes and this will indirectly support the main behavioral function caused by the PSTN tac1+ neurons rather than its neighboring areas. Because Tac1+ neurons outside the PSTN are sparsely expressed, it is quite difficult to completely restrict the viral expression in the PSTN from the anterior to the posterior. Thus, we will provide detailed information on the exclusion criteria and the number of mice excluded in the Method section.   

      (9) The authors suggest the CPA study is divergent from Serra et al 2023. Though I think this could be due to how the conditioning was done, it would be helpful for the authors to include less processed data. This would aid in possible interpretations for any divergences across studies. Can the authors include raw data (in seconds of time spent) in each compartment for each group across baseline and test days?

      We will follow Reviewer 1’s suggestion to include raw data (in seconds of time spent) in each compartment for each group across baseline and test days in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The manuscript by Hu et. al presents a clearly-designed examination of the role of tachykinin1-expressing neurons in the parasubthalamic nucleus of the lateral posterior hypothalamus (PTSN) in active avoidance learning. These glutamatergic neurons have previously been implicated in responding to negative stimuli. This manuscript expands the current understanding of PTSNTac1 neurons in learned responses to threats by showing their role in encoding and mediating the active avoidance response. The authors first use bulk fiber photometry imaging to show the encoding of the active avoidance procedure, followed by cell-type specific manipulations of PTSNTac1 neurons during active avoidance. Finally, they show that encoding and mediation of active avoidance in a downstream target of PTSNTac1 neurons, the PVT/intermediodorsal nuclei of the dorsal thalamus (IMD), has the same effect as what was discovered in the cell body. This contrasts other output regions of the PTSN, such as the PBN and CeA, which were not found to promote active avoidance learning. The experiments presented were well-designed to support the conclusions of the authors, however, the manuscript is missing several key control experiments and supplemental information to support their main findings.

      Strengths:

      The manuscript provides information on a brain region and downstream target that mediates active avoidance learning. The manuscript provides valuable information via necessity and sufficiency experiments to show the role of the population of interest (PTSNTac1 neurons) in active avoidance learning. The authors also performed most behavior experiments in male and female mice, with adequate power to address potential sex differences in the control of active avoidance by PTSNTac1 neurons. Finally, the manuscript provides valuable information about the specificity of the PTSNTac1 downstream target in regulating active avoidance learning, identifying the PVT/intermediodorsal nuclei of the dorsal thalamus as the key target and ruling out the PBN and CeA.

      We highly appreciate that Reviewer 2 thought that our experiments presented were well-designed to support the conclusions and provided valuable information in several aspects.

      Weaknesses:

      However, several main conclusions of the paper must be interpreted carefully due to missing or inadequate control experiments and histological verification.

      (1) Inadequate presentation of viral localization. The authors state that expression was "largely restricted within PSTN" however there is no quantification of the amount of viral expression beyond the target region. Given that Tac1 is expressed in neighboring regions, it is critical to show the viral expression and fiber implant location data for all animals included in the figures. Furthermore, criteria for inclusion and exclusion based on mistargeting should be delineated. This should also be clearly outlined for the experiments in Figure S5, where "behavioral effects of activation of sparsely Tac1-expressing neurons in two adjacent areas of PSTN" was tested but the location of viral expression in those cases is unclear.

      Similar with questions 3 and 8 of Reviewer 1. We will provide the viral expression and fiber implant location data for all animals included in the figures and histological images in Figure S5 in the revised manuscript. Moreover, we will provide detailed information on the exclusion criteria and the number of mice excluded in the Method section.  

      2) Lack of motion artifact correction with isosbestic signal for GCamp recordings. It is appreciated that the authors included a separate EGFP-expressing group to compare to the GCamp-expressing group, however, additional explanation is required for the methods used to analyze the raw fluorescent signal. Namely, were fluorescent signals isosbestic-corrected prior to calculating ΔF/F? If no isosbestic signal was used to correct motion artifacts within a recording session, additional explanation is needed to explain how this was addressed. The lack of motion artifacts in the EGFP signal in a separate cohort is inadequate to answer this caveat as motion artifacts are within-animal.

      We will follow Reviewer 2’s suggestion and perform isosbestic-correction for fluorescent signals prior to calculating ΔF/F. We will re-plot related figures and add this information in the revised manuscript.

      (3) Missing control experiment demonstrating intact locomotor performance in caspase ablation experiments. The authors use caspase ablation of PTSNTac1 neurons prior to active avoidance learning to appraise the necessity of this cell population. However, a control experiment showing intact locomotor ability in ablated mice was not performed.

      We will follow Reviewer 2’s suggestion to perform a control experiment showing intact locomotor ability in caspase 3-ablated mice and will include this data in the revised manuscript.

      (4) Missing control experiment demonstrating [lack of] valence with PTSN silencing manipulations. The authors performed a real-time and conditioned place preference experiments for ChR2-expressing mice (Fig 3M) and found stimulation to be negatively-valenced and generate an aversive memory, respectively. Absent this control experiment with silencing, an alternative conclusion remains possible that optogenetic silencing via GtACR2 created nonspecific location preferences in the active avoidance apparatus, confounding the interpretation of those results.

      Thank you Reviewer 2 for this useful suggestion. We will examine the valence with PTSN silencing manipulations by using a RTPP test and add this data in the revised manuscript.

      (5) Incomplete analysis of sex differences. Data in female mice is conspicuously missing from inhibition experiments. The rationale for exclusion from this dataset would be useful for the interpretation of the other noted sex differences.

      Thank you Reviewer 2 for this useful suggestion. During the review process, we have performed ablation and inhibition experiments in females, demonstrating similar behavioral effects as those in males. We will add these data in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study by Hu et al. examined the role of tachykinin1 (Tac1)-expressing neurons in the para subthalamic nucleus (PSTH) in active avoidance of electric shocks. Bulk recording of PSTH Tac1 neurons or axons of these neurons in PVT showed activation of a shock-predicting tone and shock itself. Ablation of these neurons or optogenetic manipulation of these neurons or their projection to PVT suggests the causality of this pathway with the learning of active avoidance.

      Strengths:

      This work found an understudied pathway potentially important for active avoidance of electric shocks. Experiments were thoroughly done and the presentation is clear. The amount of discussion and references are appropriate.

      We are very pleased to have Reviewer 3’s positive comments on the manuscript.

      Weaknesses:

      Critical control experiments are missing for most experiments, and statistical tests are not clear or not appropriate in most parts. Details are shown below.

      (1) There are some control experiments missing. Notably, optogenetic manipulation is not verified in any experiments. It is important to verify whether neural activation with optogenetic activation is at the physiological level or supra-physiological level, and whether optogenetic inhibition does not cause unwanted activity patterns such as rebound activation at the critical time window.

      Thank you Reviewer 3 for this useful suggestion. We will perform in vitro slice recording experiments to verify optogenetic manipulations and add this line of evidence in the revised manuscript.

      (2) Neural ablation with caspase was confirmed by GFP expression. However, from the present description, a different virus to express EITHER caspase or GFP was injected, and then the numbers of GFP-expressing neurons were compared. It is not clear how this can detect ablation.

      Similar with question 4 of Reviewer 1. We will perform immunohistochemistry or in situ hybridization for Tachykinin-1 itself and then measure colocalization of GFP with Tachykinin-1 inside and outside of the PTSN, and the degree of absence of Tachykinin-1 in Casp-ablated mice. In addition, we will provide more detailed experimental information in the revised manuscript.

      (3) In many places, statistical approaches are not clear from the present figures, figure legends, and Methods. It seems that most statistics were performed by pooling trials, but it is not described, or multiple "n" are described. For example, it is explicitly mentioned in Figure 4H, "n = 3 mice, n = 213 avoidance trials and n = 87 failure trials". The authors should not pool trials, but should perform across-animal tests in this and other figures, and "n" for should be clearly described in each plot.

      We have provided all statistical information in the Supplementary Table 1. In the revised manuscript, we will perform across-animal tests, re-plot new figures and provide clear statistical information.

      (4) It is also unclear how the test types were selected. For example, in Figure 1K and O with similar datasets, one is examined by a paired test and the other is by an unpaired test. Since each animal has both early vs late trials, and avoidance vs failure trials, paired tests across animals should be performed for both.

      Following Reviewer 3’s suggestion, we will perform across-animal tests. In the first version of our manuscript, for fiber photometry experiments, we pooled trial data of each animal and performed statistics tests across trials. Because avoidance and failure trials were different, we thus selected an unpaired test for this kind of dataset.

      (5) It is also strange to show violin plots for only 6 animals. They should instead show each dot for each animal, connected with a line to show consistent increases of activity in late vs early trials and avoidance vs failure trials.

      Similar with question 4 of Reviewer 3, we pooled trial data of each animal and performed statistics tests across trials. We will perform across-animal tests and re-plot figures by connecting with a line to show consistent increases of activity in late vs early trials and avoidance vs failure trials for each animal.

      (6) To tell specificity in avoidance learning, it is better to show escape in the current trials with optogenetic manipulation.

      Thank you Reviewer 3 for this useful suggestion. We will follow this suggestion and add this analysis in the revised manuscript.

      (7) For place aversion, % time decrease across days was tested. It is better to show the original number before normalization, as well.

      Similar with question 9 of Reviewer 1, we will show the original number before normalization in the revised manuscript.

      (8) For anatomical results in Figure S6, it is important to show images with lower magnification, too.

      We will follow this suggestion and provide histological images with lower magnification in the revised manuscript.

      (9) Inactivation of either pathway from PSTH to PBN or to CeA also inhibits active avoidance, but the authors conclude that these effects are "partial" compared to the inactivation of PSTH to PVT. It is not clear how the effects were compared since the effects of PSTH-CeA inactivation are quite strong, comparable to PSTH-PVT inactivation by eye. They should quantify the effects to conclude the difference.

      We will quantify the effects of different downstream targets of the PSTN to make a precise conclusion.

      (10) Supplementary table 1: as mentioned above, n for statistical tests should be clearer.

      As mentioned above, we will perform across-animal tests and provide clear statistical information in the figure legends and supplementary table 1.

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Cell metabolism exhibits a well-known behavior in fast-growing cells, which employ seemingly wasteful fermentation to generate energy even in the presence of sufficient environmental oxygen. This phenomenon is known as Overflow Metabolism or the Warburg effect in cancer. It is present in a wide range of organisms, from bacteria and fungi to mammalian cells.

      In this work, starting with a metabolic network for Escherichia coli based on sets of carbon sources, and using a corresponding coarse-grained model, the author applies some well-based approximations from the literature and algebraic manipulations. These are used to successfully explain the origins of Overflow Metabolism, both qualitatively and quantitatively, by comparing the results with E. coli experimental data.

      By modeling the proteome energy efficiencies for respiration and fermentation, the study shows that these parameters are dependent on the carbon source quality constants K_i (p.115 and 116). It is demonstrated that as the environment becomes richer, the optimal solution for proteome energy efficiency shifts from respiration to fermentation. This shift occurs at a critical parameter value K_A(C).<br /> This counter intuitive results qualitativelly explains Overflow Metabolism.

      Quantitative agreement is achieved through the analysis of the heterogeneity of the metabolic status within a cell population. By introducing heterogeneity, the critical growth rate is assumed to follow a Gaussian distribution over the cell population, resulting in accordance with experimental data for E. coli. Overflow metabolism is explained by considering optimal protein allocation and cell heterogeneity.

      The obtained model is extensively tested through perturbations: 1) Introduction of overexpression of useless proteins; 2) Studying energy dissipation; 3) Analysis of the impact of translation inhibition with different sub-lethal doses of chloramphenicol on Escherichia coli; 4) Alteration of nutrient categories of carbon sources using pyruvate. All model perturbations results are corroborated by E. coli experimental results.

      Strengths:

      In this work, the author effectively uses modeling techniques typical of Physics to address complex problems in Biology, demonstrating the potential of interdisciplinary approaches to yield novel insights. The use of Escherichia coli as a model organism ensures that the assumptions and approximations are well-supported in existing literature. The model is convincingly constructed and aligns well with experimental data, lending credibility to the findings. In this version, the extension of results from bacteria to yeast and cancer is substantiated by a literature base, suggesting that these findings may have broad implications for understanding diverse biological systems.

      Weaknesses:

      The author explores the generalization of their results from bacteria to cancer cells and yeast, adapting the metabolic network and coarse-grained model accordingly. In previous version this generalization was not completedly supported by references and data from the literature. This drawback, however, has been treated in this current version, where the authors discuss in much more detail and give references supporting this generalization.

    2. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      In this version of manuscript, the author clarified many details and rewrote some sections. This substantially improved the readability of the paper. I also recognized that the author spent substantial efforts in the Appendix to answer the potential questions.

      Unfortunately, I am not currently convinced by the theory proposed in this paper. In the next section, I will first recap the logic of the author and explain why I am not convinced. Although the theory fits many experimental results, other theories on overflow metabolism are also supported by experiments. Hence, I do not think based on experimental data we could rule in or rule out different theories.

      Recap: To explain the origin of overflow metabolism, the author uses the following logic:

      (1) There is a substantial variability of single-cell growth rate<br /> (2) The flux (J_r^E) and (J_f^E) are coupled with growth rate by Eq. 3<br /> (3) Since growth rate varies from cells to cells, flux (J_r^E) and (J_f^E) also varies<br /> (4) The variabilities of above fluxes in above create threshold-analog relation, and hence overflow metabolism.

      My opinion:

      The logic step (2) and (3) have caveats. The variability of growth rate has large components of cellular noise and external noise. Therefore, variability of growth rate is far from 100% correlated with variability of flux (J_r^E) and (J_f^E) at the single-cell level. Single-cell growth rate is a complex, multivariate functional, including (Jr^E) and (J_f^E) but also many other variables. My feeling is the correlation could be too low to support the logic here.

      One example: ribosomal concentration is known to be an important factor of growth rate in bulk culture. However, the "growth law" from bulk culture cannot directly translate into the growth law at single-cell level [Ref1,2]. This is likely due to other factors (such as cell aging, other muti-stability of cellular states) are involved.

      Therefore, I think using Eq.3 to invert the distribution of growth rate into the distribution of (Jr^E) and (J_f^E) is inapplicable, due to the potentially low correlation at single-cell level. It may show partial correlations, but may not be strong enough to support the claim and create fermentation at macroscopic scale.

      Overall, if we track the logic flow, this theory implies overflow metabolism is originated from variability of k_cat of catalytic enzymes from cells to cells. That is, the author proposed that overflow metabolism happens macroscopically as if it is some "aberrant activation of fermentation pathway" at the single-cell level, due to some unknown partially correlation from growth rate variability.

      Compared with other theories, this theory does not involve any regulatory mechanism and can be regarded as a "neutral theory". I am looking forward to seeing single cell experiments in the future to provide evidences about this theory.

      [Ref1] https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2024.04.19.590370v2<br /> [Ref2] https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2024.10.08.617237v2

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      The authors sought to examine the associations between child age, reports of parent-child relationship quality, and neural activity patterns while children (and also their parents) watched a movie clip. Major methodological strengths include the sample of 3-8 year-old children in China (rare in fMRI research for both age range and non-Western samples), use of a movie clip previously demonstrated to capture theory of mind constructs at the neural level, measurement of caregiver-child neural synchrony, and assessment of neural maturity. Results provide important new information about parent-child neural synchronization during this movie and associations with reports of parent-child relationship quality. The work is a notable advance in understanding the link between the caregiving context and the neural construction of theory of mind networks in the developing brain.

      There are several theoretical and methodological limitations of the manuscript in its current form:

      (1) We appreciate that the authors wanted to show support for a mediational mechanism. However, we suggest that the authors drop the structural equation modeling because the data are cross-sectional so mediation is not appropriate. Other issues include the weak justification of including the parent-child neural synchronization as part of parenting.... it could just as easily be a mechanism of change or driven by the child rather than a component of parenting behavior. The paper would be strengthened by looking at associations between selected variables of interest that are MOST relevant to the imaging task in a regression type of model. Furthermore, the authors need to be more explicit about corrections for multiple comparisons throughout the manuscript; some of the associations are fairly weak so claims may need to be tempered if they don't survive correction.

      (2) Reverse correlation analysis is sensible given what prior developmental fMRI studies have done. But reverse correlation analysis may be more prone to overfitting and noise, and lacks sensitivity to multivariate patterns. Might inter-subject correlation be useful for *within* the child group? This would minimize noise and allow for non-linear patterns to emerge.

      (3) No learning effects or temporal lagged effects are tested in the current study, so the results do not support the authors' conclusions that the data speak to Bandura's social learning theory. The authors do mention theories of biobehavioral synchrony in the introduction but do not discuss this framework in the discussion (which is most directly relevant to the data). The data can also speak to other neurodevelopmental theories of development (e.g.,neuroconstructivist approaches), but the authors do not discuss them. The manuscript would benefit from significantly revising the framework to focus more on biobehavioral synchrony data and other neurodevelopmental approaches given the prior work done in this area rather than a social psychology framework that is not directly evaluated.

      (4) The significance and impact of the findings would be clearer if the authors more clearly situated the findings in the context of (a) other movie and theory of mind fMRI task data during development; and (b) existing data on parent-child neural synchrony (often uses fNIRS or EEG). What principles of brain and social cognition development do these data speak to? What is new?

      (5) There is little discussion about the study limitations, considerations about the generalizability of the findings, and important next steps and future directions. What can the data tell us, and what can it NOT tell us?

    2. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study investigates the impact of mother-child neural synchronization and the quality of parent-child relationships on the development of Theory of Mind (ToM) and social cognition. Utilizing a naturalistic fMRI movie-viewing paradigm, the authors analyzed inter-subject neural synchronization in mother-child dyads and explored the connections between neural maturity, parental caregiving, and social cognitive outcomes. The findings indicate age-related maturation in ToM and social pain networks, emphasizing the importance of dyadic interactions in shaping ToM performance and social skills, thereby enhancing our understanding of the environmental and intrinsic influences on social cognition.

      Strengths:

      This research addresses a significant question in developmental neuroscience, by linking social brain development with children's behaviors and parenting. It also uses a robust methodology by incorporating neural synchrony measures, naturalistic stimuli, and a substantial sample of mother-child dyads to enhance its ecological validity. Furthermore, the SEM approach provides a nuanced understanding of the developmental pathways associated with Theory of Mind (ToM).

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Upon reviewing the introduction, I feel that the first goal - developmental changes of the social brain and its relation to age - seems somewhat distinct from the other two goals and the main research question of the manuscript. The authors might consider revising this section to enhance the overall coherence of the manuscript. Additionally, the introduction lacks a clear background and rationale for the importance of examining age-related changes in the social brain.

      (2) The manuscript uses both "mother-child" and "parent-child" terminology. Does this imply that only mothers participated in the fMRI scans while fathers completed the questionnaires? If so, have the authors considered the potential impact of parental roles (father vs. mother)?

      (3) There is inconsistent usage of the terms ISC and ISS in the text and figures, both of which appear to refer to synchronization derived from correlation analysis. It would be beneficial to maintain consistency throughout the manuscript.

      (4) Of the 50 dyads, 16 were excluded due to data quality issues, which constitutes a significant proportion. It would be helpful to know whether these excluded dyads exhibited any distinctive characteristics. Providing information on demographic or behavioral differences-such as Theory of Mind (ToM) performance and age range between the excluded and included dyads would enhance the assessment of the findings' generalizability.

      (5) The article does not adhere to the standard practice of using a resting state as a baseline for subtracting from task synchronization. Is there a rationale for this approach? Not controlling for a baseline may lead to issues, such as whether resting state synchronization already differs between subjects with varying characteristics.

      (6) The title of the manuscript suggests a direct influence of mother-child interactions on children's social brain and theory of mind. However, the use of structural equation modeling (SEM) may not fully establish causal relationships. It is possible that the development of children's social brain and ToM also enhances mother-child neural synchronization. The authors should address this alternative hypothesis of the potential bidirectional relationship in the discussion and exercise caution regarding terms that imply causality in the title and throughout the manuscript.

      (7) I would appreciate more details about the 14 Theory of Mind (ToM) tasks, which could be included in supplemental materials. The authors score them on a scale from 0 to 14 (each task 1 point); however, the tasks likely vary in difficulty and should carry different weights in the total score (for example, the test and the control questions should have different weights). Many studies have utilized the seven tasks according to Wellman and Liu (2004), categorizing them into "basic ToM" and "advanced ToM." Different components of ToM could influence the findings of the current study, which should be further examined by a more in-depth analysis.

    3. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The article explores the role of mother-child interactions in the development of children's social cognition, focusing on Theory of Mind (ToM) and Social Pain Matrix (SPM) networks. Using a naturalistic fMRI paradigm involving movie viewing, the study examines relationships among children's neural development, mother-child neural synchronization, and interaction quality. The authors identified a developmental pattern in these networks, showing that they become more functionally distinct with age. Additionally, they found stronger neural synchronization between child-mother pairs compared to child-stranger pairs, with this synchronization and neural maturation of the networks associated with the mother-child relationship and parenting quality.

      Strengths:

      This is a well-written paper, and using dyadic fMRI and naturalistic stimuli enhances its ecological validity, providing valuable insights into the dynamic interplay between brain development and social interactions. However, I have some concerns regarding the analysis and interpretation of the findings. I have outlined these concerns below in the order they appear in the manuscript, which I hope will be helpful for the revision.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Given the importance of social cognition in this study, please cite a foundational empirical or review paper on social cognition to support its definition. The current first citation is primarily related to ASD research, which may not fully capture the broader context of social cognition development.

      (2) It is standard practice to report the final sample size in the Abstract and Introduction, rather than the initial recruited sample, as high attrition rates are common in pediatric studies. For example, this study recruited 50 mother-child dyads, and only 34 remained after quality control. This information is crucial for interpreting the results and conclusions. I recommend reporting the final sample size in the abstract and introduction but specifying in the Methods that an additional 16 mother-child dyads were initially recruited or that 50 dyads were originally collected.

      (3) In the "Neural maturity reflects the development of the social brain" section, the authors report the across-network correlation for adults, finding a negative correlation between ToM and SPM. However, the cross-network correlations for the three child groups are not reported. The statement that "the two networks were already functionally distinct in the youngest group of children we tested" is based solely on within-network positive correlations, which does not fully demonstrate functional distinctness. Including cross-network correlations for the child groups would strengthen this conclusion.

      (4) The ROIs for the ToM and SPM networks are defined based on previous literature, applying the same ROIs across all age groups. While I understand this is a common approach, it's important to note that this assumption may not fully hold, as network architecture can evolve with age. The functional ROIs or components of a network might shift, with regions potentially joining or exiting a network or changing in size as children develop. For instance, Mark H. Johnson's interactive specialization theory suggests that network composition may adapt over developmental stages. Although the authors follow the approach of Richardson et al. (2018), it would be beneficial to discuss this limitation in the Discussion. An alternative approach would be to apply data-driven analysis to justify the selection of the ROIs for the two networks.

      (5) The current sample size (N = 34 dyads) is a limitation, particularly given the use of SEM, which generally requires larger samples for stable results. Although the model fit appears adequate, this does not guarantee reliability with the current sample size. I suggest discussing this limitation in more detail in the Discussion.

      (6) Based on the above comment, I believe that conclusions regarding the relationship between social network development, parenting, and support for Bandura's theory should be tempered. The current conclusions may be too strong given the study's limitations.

      (7) The SPM (pain) network is associated with empathic abilities, also an important aspect of social skills. It would be relevant to explore whether (or explain why) SPM development and child-mother synchronization are (or are not) related to parenting and the parent-child relationship.

    1. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In their study, McDermott et al. investigate the neurocomputational mechanism underlying sensory prediction errors. They contrast two accounts: representational sharpening and dampening. Representational sharpening suggests that predictions increase the fidelity of the neural representations of expected inputs, while representational dampening suggests the opposite (decreased fidelity for expected stimuli). The authors performed decoding analyses on EEG data, showing that first expected stimuli could be better decoded (sharpening), followed by a reversal during later response windows where unexpected inputs could be better decoded (dampening). These results are interpreted in the context of opposing process theory (OPT), which suggests that such a reversal would support perception to be both veridical (i.e., initial sharpening to increase the accuracy of perception) and informative (i.e., later dampening to highlight surprising, but informative inputs).

      Strengths:

      The topic of the present study is of significant relevance to the field of predictive processing. The experimental paradigm used by McDermott et al. is well designed, allowing the authors to avoid several common confounds in investigating predictions, such as stimulus familiarity and adaptation. The introduction of the manuscript provides a well-written summary of the main arguments for the two accounts of interest (sharpening and dampening), as well as OPT. Overall, the manuscript serves as a good overview of the current state of the field.

      Weaknesses:

      In my opinion, several details of the methods, results, and manuscript raise doubts about the quality and reliability of the reported findings. Key concerns are:

      (1) The results in Figure 2C seem to show that the leading image itself can only be decoded with ~33% accuracy (25% chance; i.e. ~8% above chance decoding). In contrast, Figure 2E suggests the prediction (surprisingly, valid or invalid) during the leading image presentation can be decoded with ~62% accuracy (50% chance; i.e. ~12% above chance decoding). Unless I am misinterpreting the analyses, it seems implausible to me that a prediction, but not actually shown image, can be better decoded using EEG than an image that is presented on-screen.

      (2) The "prediction decoding" analysis is described by the authors as "decoding the predictable trailing images based on the leading images". How this was done is however unclear to me. For each leading image decoding the predictable trailing images should be equivalent to decoding validity (as there were only 2 possible trailing image categories: 1 valid, 1 invalid). How is it then possible that the analysis is performed separately for valid and invalid trials? If the authors simply decode which leading image category was shown, but combine L1+L2 and L4+L5 into one class respectively, the resulting decoder would in my opinion not decode prediction, but instead dissociate the representation of L1+L2 from L4+L5, which may also explain why the time-course of the prediction peaks during the leading image stimulus-response, which is rather different compared to previous studies decoding predictions (e.g. Kok et al. 2017). Instead for the prediction analysis to be informative about the prediction, the decoder ought to decode the representation of the trailing image during the leading image and inter-stimulus interval. Therefore I am at present not convinced that the utilized analysis approach is informative about predictions.

      (3) I may be misunderstanding the reported statistics or analyses, but it seems unlikely that >10 of the reported contrasts have the exact same statistic of Tmax= 2.76. Similarly, it seems implausible, based on visual inspection of Figure 2, that the Tmax for the invalid condition decoding (reported as Tmax = 14.903) is substantially larger than for the valid condition decoding (reported as Tmax = 2.76), even though the valid condition appears to have superior peak decoding performance. Combined these details may raise concerns about the reliability of the reported statistics.

      (4) The reported analyses and results do not seem to support the conclusion of early learning resulting in dampening and later stages in sharpening. Specifically, the authors appear to base this conclusion on the absence of a decoding effect in some time-bins, while in my opinion a contrast between time-bins, showing a difference in decoding accuracy, is required. Or better yet, a non-zero slope of decoding accuracy over time should be shown (not contingent on post-hoc and seemingly arbitrary binning).

      (5) The present results both within and across trials are difficult to reconcile with previous studies using MEG (Kok et al., 2017; Han et al., 2019), single-unit and multi-unit recordings (Kumar et al., 2017; Meyer & Olson 2011), as well as fMRI (Richter et al., 2018), which investigated similar questions but yielded different results; i.e., no reversal within or across trials, as well as dampening effects with after more training. The authors do not provide a convincing explanation as to why their results should differ from previous studies, arguably further compounding doubts about the present results raised by the methods and results concerns noted above.

      Impact:

      At present, I find the potential impact of the study by McDermott et al. difficult to assess, given the concerns mentioned above. Should the authors convincingly answer these concerns, the study could provide meaningful insights into the mechanisms underlying perceptual prediction. However, at present, I am not entirely convinced by the quality and reliability of the results and manuscript. Moreover, the difficulty in reconciling some of the present results with previous studies highlights the need for more convincing explanations of these discrepancies and a stronger discussion of the present results in the context of the literature.

    1. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      This study investigates how effort influences reward evaluation during prosocial behaviour using EEG and experimental tasks manipulating effort and rewards for self and others. Results reveal a dissociable effect: for self-benefitting effort, rewards are evaluated more positively as effort increases, while for other-benefitting effort, rewards are evaluated less positively with higher effort. This dissociation, driven by reward system activation and independent of performance, provides new insights into the neural mechanisms of effort and reward in prosocial contexts.

      This work makes a valuable contribution to the prosocial behaviour literature by addressing areas that previous research has largely overlooked. It highlights the paradoxical effect of effort on reward evaluation and opens new avenues for investigating the mechanisms underlying this phenomenon. The study employs well-established tasks with robust replication in the literature and innovatively incorporates ERPs to examine effort-based prosocial decision-making - an area insufficiently explored in prior work. Moreover, the analyses are rigorous and grounded in established methodologies, further enhancing the study's credibility. These elements collectively underscore the study's significance in advancing our understanding of effort-based decision-making.

      Despite these contributions, there are several gaps in the analysis that leave the conclusions incomplete and warrant further investigation. These issues can be summarized as follows:

      (1) Incomplete EEG Reporting: The methods indicate that EEG activity was recorded for both tasks; however, the manuscript reports EEG results only for the first task, omitting the decision-making task. If the authors claim a paradoxical effect of effort on self versus other rewards, as revealed by the RewP component, this should also be confirmed with results from the decision-making task. Omitting these findings weakens the overall argument.

      (2) Neural and Behavioural Integration: The neural results should be contrasted with behavioural data both within and between tasks. Specifically, the manuscript could examine whether neural responses predict performance within each task and whether neural and behavioural signals correlate across tasks. This integration would provide a more comprehensive understanding of the mechanisms at play.

      (3) Success Rate and Model Structure: The manuscript does not clearly report the success rate in the prosocial effort task. If success rates are low, risk aversion could confound the results. Additionally, it is unclear whether the models accounted for successful versus unsuccessful trials or whether success was included as a covariate. If this information is present, it needs to be explicitly clarified. The exclusion criteria for unsuccessful trials in both tasks should also be detailed. Moreover, the decision to exclude electrodes as independent variables in the models warrants an explanation.

      (4) Prosocial Decision Computational Modelling: The prosocial decision task largely replicates prior behavioural findings but misses the opportunity to directly test the hypotheses derived from neural data in the prosocial effort task. If the authors propose a paradoxical effect of effort on self-rewards and an inverse effect for prosocial effort, this could be formalised in a computational model. A model comparison could evaluate the proposed mechanism against alternative theories, incorporating the complex interplay of effort and reward for self and others. Furthermore, these parameters should be correlated with neural signals, adding a critical layer of evidence to the claims. As it is, the inclusion of the prosocial decision task seems irrelevant.

      (5) Contradiction Between Effort Perception and Neural Results: Participants reported effort as less effortful in the prosocial condition compared to the self condition, which seems contradictory to the neural findings and the authors' interpretation. If effort has a discounting effect on rewards for others, one might expect it to feel more effortful. How do the authors reconcile these results? Additionally, the relationship between behavioural data and neural responses should be examined to clarify these inconsistencies.

      Necessary Revisions to Manuscript: If the authors address the issues above, corresponding updates to the introduction and discussion sections could strengthen the narrative and align the manuscript with the additional analyses.

    1. las modificaciones del espacio muerto,

      Si hay un aumento del espacio muerto en la ventilación pulmonar, se puede desarrollar acidosis respiratoria, dependiendo de la magnitud del compromiso. Vamos a explicarlo en detalle.

      1. ¿Qué es el espacio muerto? El espacio muerto es la parte del sistema respiratorio donde ocurre ventilación, pero no hay intercambio gaseoso efectivo con la sangre. Existen dos tipos principales:

      Espacio muerto anatómico: Incluye las vías respiratorias superiores y bronquios, donde no hay alvéolos (estructura normal). Espacio muerto alveolar: Se refiere a alvéolos que están ventilados, pero no perfundidos adecuadamente por la circulación sanguínea. Esto ocurre, por ejemplo, en embolia pulmonar o enfisema severo. El espacio muerto fisiológico es la suma de ambos. Un aumento del espacio muerto reduce la eficacia de la ventilación alveolar, lo que puede alterar el equilibrio ácido-base.

      1. Efecto del aumento del espacio muerto en los gases arteriales Cuando aumenta el espacio muerto:

      Hipoventilación alveolar relativa: Aunque el paciente puede ventilar, una mayor proporción del aire inspirado queda atrapada en zonas sin intercambio gaseoso.

      Esto reduce la eliminación de CO₂ porque menos aire llega a los alvéolos funcionales. El CO₂ se acumula en la sangre, aumentando los niveles de PaCO₂ (hipercapnia). Efecto en el equilibrio ácido-base:

      El aumento de PaCO₂ desplaza el equilibrio de la reacción de hidratación del CO₂ hacia la formación de ácido carbónico (H₂CO₃), que se disocia en H⁺ y HCO₃⁻. Esto conduce a una acidosis respiratoria. 3. Factores que determinan la severidad de la acidosis respiratoria La acidosis respiratoria dependerá de:

      Cantidad de espacio muerto agregado:

      Un espacio muerto alveolar muy grande, como en embolia pulmonar masiva o enfermedad pulmonar obstructiva severa, puede causar hipercapnia significativa. Capacidad de compensación ventilatoria:

      Si el sistema respiratorio puede aumentar la frecuencia y profundidad de la ventilación, el paciente puede compensar parcialmente y evitar o minimizar la acidosis. Duración del aumento del espacio muerto:

      Si el aumento es agudo, puede desarrollarse una acidosis respiratoria aguda, con menos tiempo para la compensación renal. En casos crónicos, los riñones aumentan la reabsorción de HCO₃⁻ para compensar la acidosis. 4. ¿Por qué no alcalosis respiratoria? El aumento del espacio muerto no causa alcalosis respiratoria, ya que esta ocurre por hiperventilación efectiva que elimina más CO₂ de lo necesario. En cambio, con mayor espacio muerto, aunque la ventilación global aumente, no es eficiente en la eliminación de CO₂, lo que lleva a hipercapnia y acidosis respiratoria.

      1. Ejemplos clínicos donde ocurre acidosis respiratoria por aumento del espacio muerto Enfermedad pulmonar obstructiva crónica (EPOC): Reducción del intercambio gaseoso en zonas pulmonares dañadas. Embolia pulmonar: Alvéolos ventilados, pero no perfundidos. Síndrome de dificultad respiratoria aguda (SDRA): Zonas de pulmón no funcional contribuyen al espacio muerto. Ventilación mecánica inadecuada: Exceso de espacio muerto en circuitos o ajustes incorrectos. Conclusión: Un aumento del espacio muerto típicamente lleva a una acidosis respiratoria debido a la hipercapnia resultante de la ventilación alveolar ineficaz. La severidad de la acidosis dependerá de la capacidad del sistema respiratorio para compensar y del tiempo que persista el problema.
    1. Author response:

      (1) General Statements

      We thank all three reviewers for their constructive comments and suggestions. We also thank reviewers #2 and #3 for considering our work to be timely and of interest to the field, not only for basic researchers, but also for translational scientists and industry. We are now providing additional results to further support our hypothesis and hope that all reviewers will find that our manuscript is now ready for publication. 

      (2) Point-by-point description of the revisions

      Reviewer #1 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)): 

      The manuscript by Coquel et al. investigates the effects of BKC and IBC, two compounds found in Psoralea corylifolia in DNA replication and the response to DNA damage, and explores their potential use in cancer treatment. These compounds have been previously shown to affect different cellular pathways and the authors use transformed cancer cells of different origins and a non-transformed cell line to question if their combination is toxic in cancer versus non-cancer cells. They propose that BKC inhibits DNA polymerases while IBC targets CHK2. Their results show that both compounds do affect DNA replication, inducing replication stress and affecting double strand break repair. They also show that their combined use increases their toxicity in a synergistic manner. 

      However, there are some major conclusions that are still not very well supported by the data: first, the differential effect on cancer and non-transformed cells; second, the direct link of BKC to the inhibition of DNA polymerases; and third, it is unclear if CHK2 is the relevant target for IBC in this context. 

      Regarding these points the authors should address the following issues: 

      (1) Most of the experiments use BJ fibroblasts as a control cell line. In order to evaluate if these compounds are preferentially toxic for cancer cells, the use of more than one non-transformed cell line is necessary. In addition, BJ cells are fibroblasts while most of the cancer cell lines employed are of epithelial origin. The authors could use MCF10 and RPE cells (both of epithelial origin) as control cell lines to complement the results and better support this claim. 

      We have now monitored the effect of IBC and BKC on the proliferation of MCF-7, MCF-10A and RPE-1 cells using the WST-1 assay and obtained similar results as for BJ and MCF-7 cells. These results are now included in the revised manuscript as Fig. S1A and S1B.

      (2) In order to explore what are the targets of BKC and IBC Cellular Thermal Shift Assays (CETSA) could be used. Either by doing an unbiased mass spectrometry analysis of proteins stabilized by these compounds or by a direct analysis of candidate proteins by western blot (a similar approach has been used for IBC to show that it inhibits SIRT2 in Ren et al., 2024 Phytotherapy Res).

      We thank this Reviewer for suggesting the use of the CETSA assay. We have now performed  CETSA on MCF-7 cells and found that IBC stabilizes CHK2 but not CHK1, to the same extent as the commercial CHK2 inhibitor BML-277 used here as a positive control. These results are now shown in new Fig. 4G and 4H.

      (3) For BKC in vitro polymerase assays could be carried out to show the direct inhibition of the DNA polymerase delta, for instance. 

      We have used high-speed Xenopus egg extracts to replicate ssDNA in vitro (Fig. S2C). This assay differs from the in vitro replication assay using low-speed Xenopus egg extracts (Fig. 2H) in that it only monitors elongation by replicative DNA polymerases (Pol δ and ε) and not earlier steps such as origin licensing and activation. The combined use of both low-speed and highspeed extracts strongly supports the view that BKC inhibits replicative DNA polymerases. 

      To confirm this result, we have also used CETSA to monitor BKC binding to different subunits of DNA Polδ and Polε in MCF-7 cells and in Xenopus egg extracts (Fig. 3C-D Fig. S3). We found that BKC binds POLD1 and POLE, the catalytic subunits of Pol δ and ε respectively, but not the accessory subunit POLD3 nor PCNA. Together with our docking results and DNA fiber experiments, these data strongly support the view that BKC is a potent inhibitor of DNA Pol and Pol. 

      (4) In addition, the authors could analyze the integrity of replication forks by PCNA immunofluorescence analysis. The colocalization of PCNA and POLD or POLE subunits could also support the role of DNA polymerases as targets of BKC. 

      Our molecular docking results also show that BKC occupies the catalytic sites of DNA Pol δ and ε, which may not affect their subcellular localization and/or PCNA binding. Since our DNA replication assays, CETSA and DNA fiber analyses strongly support the view that BKC inhibits replicative DNA polymerases, we have not performed this additional experiment.

      (5) In the case of IBC and the inhibition of CHK2, the authors should check the effect of IBC on the phosphorylation of BRCA1 on S988. The changes in CHK2 phosphorylation in Figure 3B are not convincing. The experiment should be repeated and the average of at least three experiments needs to be quantified. 

      We now provide evidence that IBC inhibits BRCA1 phosphorylation on S988. Western blots and quantification for three biological replicates are shown in Fig. 4C and Fig. S4H. Densitometric quantification of CHK2 phosphorylation on S516 from 3 biological replicates, along with statistical analysis, is now shown in Fig. S4G.

      (6) To prove that CHK2 is the relevant target for IBC the authors could test if ATM and CHK2 knockout cells are more resistant to this compound, since it would prevent the phosphorylation of CHK2. 

      We have performed siRNA transfection targeting CHK2. The transfected cells died after 72 hours in culture, so we have been unable to determine whether CHK2-KD cells have increased resistance to IBC.  

      In addition to these experiments, I would suggest some other major improvements in the manuscript: 

      (1) The concentration of both compounds should be provided in molar units throughout the paper.

      Thanks for pointing this out, we now use molar units throughout the paper.

      (2) The authors do not clearly indicate the concentration that is employed in the different experiments, making it difficult to assess the results. For instance, Figure 2 does not include the concentration in the legend or in the text. Time and concentration need to be clearly shown for each experiment. 

      The experimental conditions and inhibitor concentrations are now clearly indicated for each experiment.

      (3) Some experiments are only repeated once (fiber assays) or twice (cell cycle analysis by flow cytometry). These experiments need to be repeated 3 times and the proper statistical analysis performed (comparison of the medians). 

      Superplots with biological replicates for all DNA fiber assays are now displayed. The number of biological replicates is now indicated in the legends and appropriate statistical analyses are used.

      Other minor points or suggestions: 

      (1) Analyzing fork asymmetry would further support the direct effect of BKC on DNA polymerases. 

      The effect of BKC on fork asymmetry is now shown in Fig. 2F. 

      (2) A dose dependent analysis of BKC on the speed of DNA replication would also support this point. 

      Superplots of DNA fiber assays showing the effect of different concentrations of BKC on fork speed from three biological replicates are now included in Fig. 2E.

      (3) Page 7: BKC reduces fork speed ...two-fold. This sentence is not very clear, it would be better to say that speed is half of the control. 

      This sentence was changed to “BKC reduced fork speed by a factor of two relative to untreated cells”.

      (4) Figure 4G and S4D show contradictory results regarding the induction of Rad51 foci by IBC treatment. This needs to be clarified. 

      Figure 4G and S4D (now Fig. 5G and S5D) do not show contradictory results. In both cases, IBC treatment impaired the induction of RAD51 foci by IR or bleomycin.  

      (5) Page 12, Figure S5C is called for but it does not exist (probably meaning Figure S5B). 

      We apologize for this error, which has now been corrected.  

      Reviewer #1 (Significance): 

      The work by Coquel et al. aims at elucidating the use of BKC and IBC as a combined therapy to induce cell death in cancer cells by targeting DNA replication and CHK2. Both BKC and IBC have been previously shown to affect the proliferation of cancer cells. BKC has been shown to induce S phase arrest in an ATR dependent manner in MCF7 cells (Li et al., 2016 Front Pharm), while IBC induces cell death in MDA-MB-231 cells (Wu et al., 2022 Molecules). In this regard, the more interesting contribution of the manuscript is the potential identification of the targets of these compounds in cancer cells. The inhibition of CHK2 by IBC is quite compelling although it needs to be further proven. In contrast, the hypothesis that BKC inhibits DNA polymerases remains highly speculative. The results offer a limited advance in the knowledge of the mechanism of action of these two compounds. Focusing on the action of IBC on CHK2 would increase the impact of the results. In this sense a very recent report has been published showing that IBC inhibits SIRT2 (Ren et al., 2024 Phyto Res), showing that IBC can affect multiple enzymes and processes. This should be taken into account for a further analysis of its mechanism of action. 

      In addition to the identification of the targets of BKC and IBC, the authors also focus on their combination for cancer treatment. This is based on the idea that blocking the DSB repair and inducing replication stress at the same time is an efficient approach to induce cancer cell death. This is not a new concept, since the loss of ATM sensitizes cancer cells to the inhibition of the replication stress response and several combination therapies have been put forward with the idea of generating replication stress and preventing the subsequent repair of the double strand breaks induced in these cells. Thus, the novelty here is limited, especially considering that the effect of BKC on DNA replication has already been described. Further, since its mechanism of action is unclear, it is difficult to ascribe the observed synergy to the speculated hypothesis. A deeper analysis of IBC as a CHK2 inhibitor would be more interesting, and the potential combination with other chemotherapy agents such as replication stress inhibitors, HU or DNA damaging agents. Also, the lack of a good control of non-transformed cells also reduces the relevance of the work. 

      In its current state, the interest of the manuscript is limited. The mechanistical advance is not strong enough and is not completely supported by the data, and the use of these compounds as a combination therapy does not provide new insights in cancer treatment. In my opinion, focusing on the inhibition of CHK2 by IBC and its potential use would broaden the impact of the results beyond the mere analysis of the action of these compounds. 

      We thank this reviewer for his/her constructive and insightful comments. We have followed his/her advice and focused our analysis on the action of IBC on CHK2. Using CETSA, we confirmed that IBC binds CHK2 to the same extent as BML-277 inhibitor, but does not bind CHK1. We also show that IBC inhibits BRCA1 phosphorylation on S988 and CHK2 phosphorylation on S516. Together with the results presented in the initial version of the manuscript, these data support the view that CHK2 is a key IBC target. We have also applied CETSA to DNA polymerases and confirmed that BKC directly targets DNA Polδ and ε. Although it is unlikely that IBC and BKC will ever be used in combination therapies, the synergistic effect that we measured on cancer cells in vivo and in vitro indicates that IBC sensitizes cancer cells to endogenous replication stress and to exogenous sources of DNA damage, which could be used to replace BKC in combination therapies. For instance, our data indicate that IBC can be used in combination with drugs such as etoposide, doxorubicin or cyclophosphamide to potentiate their effect on drug-resistant lymphoma cell lines (DLBCL). As requested by this Reviewer, we have modified the discussion section to put more emphasis on IBC and CHK2 inhibitors and we hope that he/she will now find this revised version suitable for publication.

      Reviewer #2 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity): 

      In the manuscript by Coquel et al., the authors report their findings on the effect of 2 natural compounds from Psoralea corylofolia plant extracts on cancer cells. They show that these compounds, bakuchiol (BKC) and isobavachalcone (IBC), inhibit proliferation of cancer cells and tumor development in xenografted mice, particularly when used in combination. They further show that BKC inhibited DNA polymerases and induced replication stress, and show evidence that IBC inhibits Chk2 kinase activity and downstream double-strand break repair. Based on their findings, the authors conclude that Chk2 inhibition and DNA replication inhibition represent a potential synergistic strategy to selecting target cancer cells. 

      Major: 

      (1) The data showing IBC is a Chk2 inhibitor is weak and more rigorous investigation is needed to establish this compound as a Chk2 inhibitor. 

      As indicate in our response to Reviewer #1, we have now analyzed the binding of IBC to CHK2 using the Cellular Thermal Shift Assay (CETSA) in MCF-7 cells. Our data clearly show that IBC binds to CHK2 but not CHK1. These results are now shown in Fig. 4G and 4H.

      For one, the authors mention they screened 43 cell cycle-related kinases in vitro, but only show data for 8 kinases in their kinase activity screens. Of these 8 kinases, Chk2 is the most strongly inhibited, but there are no data shown for the other 35 kinases. 

      Data for all the protein kinases tested in the in vitro assay are now presented in Fig. S4D and S4E.  

      Additionally, the purpose of the CHK2 mutants should be discussed in the text. 

      The CHK2(I157T) mutation is linked to an increased risk of breast and colorectal cancers. CHK2(R145W) is associated with Li-Fraumeni Syndrome. Both mutations do not affect the basal kinase activity of CHK2. This information is now indicated in the legend of Fig. S4D. 

      Secondly, the western blot in Fig 3B, appears to show a very modest effect of IBC on Chk2 autophosphorylation and not that different from the effect of IBC on Akt phosphorylation in Fig S3a. Yet, the authors claim that IBC inhibits Chk2 but not Akt. To strengthen these blots, a known Chk2 inhibitor, such as the one shown in Fig 4 (BML-277) should be included as a positive control for pChk2 similarly to what was shown for Akt with MK-2206. 

      We have now replaced the western blot in Fig. 3B (now Fig. 4B) with another biological replicate. Quantifications and statistical analyses of biological replicates are shown in Fig. S4G. Overall, we observed a 50% reduction of CHK2 auto-phosphorylation in MCF7 cells treated with IBC, and a 20% reduction in AKT phosphorylation (Fig. S4A). There was no additional reduction in AKT phosphorylation when cells were treated with IBC in combination with MK-2206, compared to cells treated with MK-2206 alone. We now include the CHK2 inhibitor BML-277 as a positive control alongside with IBC to monitor CHK2 and CHK1 auto-phosphorylation in Fig. 4B, S4G, 4D and S4I, respectively.

      Western blots showing a loss of phosphorylation of additional Chk2 targets is also needed. The manuscript mentions Brca1 S988 as a Chk2 substrate important for DSB repair. Showing the effect of IBC on this phosphorylation site would strengthen the conclusions. 

      We now provide evidence that IBC inhibits BRCA1 phosphorylation at S988. Western blots and quantification for three biological replicates are shown in Fig. 4C and S4H. 

      (2) The authors claim that the combination of IBC and BKC inhibit cell growth in a synergistic manner and that the "effect is more pronounce on cancer cells than on non-cancer cells." However, only 1 non-malignant cell line was used, and it was a fibroblast line. To make this claim, the authors need to show the effect in additional non-malignant cells, preferably with epithelial cell types. 

      We have now monitored cell proliferation using the WST-1 assay in two additional non-malignant cell lines, namely MCF-10A and RPE-1 cells. Cells were treated with IBC/BKC and their growth was compared to that of MCF-7 cells. These experiments yielded similar results to those obtained with BJ fibroblasts. These new data are now included in the revised version as Fig. S1A and S1B. 

      Minor: 

      (1) Densitometry data for all western blots should be shown with mean+/- stdev of independent western blots. 

      Densitometry data for all western blots with biological replicates are now shown in supplementary figures.

      (2) In Figure 1B the statistical test used to analyze cell number was not stated. 

      The statistical test is now indicated in Fig. 1B.

      (3) In Figure 2A, the DAPI image for BKC is the merged image and should be replaced with just DAPI. 

      This error has now been corrected.

      (4) In Figure 2B, the y-axis label says "yH2AX foci (MFI)". MFI and foci are not the same thing, and for yH2AX, the signal is often not focal. MFI of yH2AX is an appropriate measurement for replication stress, it's just not appropriate to equate MFI to foci. 

      We apologize for this labeling error, which has now been corrected.

      (5) For the 53BP1 MFI and Rad51 MFI shown in Fig 4 and Fig S4, it is more appropriate to show the number of foci/cell as these are better indicators of breaks and repair sites. MFI is influenced by expression levels of the proteins and not necessarily the break/repair. 

      The numbers of 53BP1 and RAD51 foci are now shown.

      (6) The data in Figures 5B and 5C are very difficult to read. Perhaps color-coat the lines/symbols. 

      We have now colored the graph to increase its readability. 

      Reviewer #2 (Significance): 

      The findings reported in this manuscript are timely, of interest to the field, and are mostly wellsupported by the experimental data. However, there are a few concerns that need to be addressed. 

      We are grateful to Reviewer #2 for his positive assessment of our manuscript. We hope that we have adequately addressed all of his/her specific concerns and that he/she will agree with the need to put more emphasis on IBC and CHK2 inhibition as requested by Reviewer #1.

      Reviewer #3 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity): 

      The manuscript: "Synergistic effect of inhibiting CHK2 and DNA replication on cancer cell growth" successfully demonstrates that the compounds BKC and IBC found in Psoralea corylifolia act synergistically to inhibit cancer cell proliferation, using a wide range of well-chosen methodologies. Moreover, the authors characterized the mechanisms of action of both drugs, which result in inhibition of cell proliferation. The use of multiple cell lines and the mice models makes the study robust and complete. The manuscript presents a well written study that offers new insights and contributions to the field. 

      A few suggestions to improve the study: 

      (1) Given that both compounds BKC and IBC have already been previously described in the literature, it would be helpful for the reader to have them described better at the beginning of the study. 

      Thanks for pointing this out. We have now better described BKC and IBC at the beginning of the results section, as well as in the discussion. We agree that this could be helpful to readers.

      (2) Addition of western blot quantifications over the number of experimental repeats is important specifically for Fig. 2C and Fig. 3C where partial effect of treatment on a signal level is reported. 

      The densitometry analysis of data shown in Fig. 2C and biological replicates are now shown in Fig. S2B. Quantification for Fig. 3C (now Fig. 4D) is shown in Fig. S4I.

      (3) The quantification of mean intensity for 53BP1 and RAD51 foci should be exchanged with the quantification of number of foci per cell. While the quantification of gH2AX signal intensity is a correct representation of induction of this signal upon damage, foci formed by protein recruitment to DNA damage sites should be quantified by counting the number of foci, rather than signal in the whole cell/nucleus. These proteins exist before damage and are re-located in response to the damage. 

      Quantification of 53BP1 and RAD51 foci is now expressed as the number of foci per cell. 

      (4) Materials & Methods section is missing the methods for the experiment described in Fig. 1B. In summary, after addressing our few concerns, we believe the manuscript should be accepted for publication. 

      The WST-1 assay used for cell number quantification is included in “Reagents” in Material & Methods section.

      Reviewer #3 (Significance):

      The manuscript presents a well written study that offers new insights and contributions to the field. Although the inhibitors described have been known in science, the authors present convincingly their mode of action, which is either better characterized (for BKC) or inhibiting a different than previously suggested enzyme (for IBC). Authors also nicely pinpoint and explain the narrow window of concentrations when these two compounds act synergistically rather than additively. The analyses in multiple cell lines, mouse models and in combination with other cancer treatments, makes this study of interest not only for fundamental researchers but also for translational scientists and industry.

      My field of expertise: DNA replication and replication stress across model systems. 

      We are grateful to Reviewer #3 for his/her very positive assessment of our work and we hope that he/she will find this revised version suitable for publication.

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Ngo et. al use several computational methods to determine and characterize structures defining the three major states sampled by the human voltage-gated potassium channel hERG: the open, closed, and inactivated state. Specifically, they use AlphaFold and Rosetta to generate conformations that likely represent key features of the open, closed, and inactivated states of this channel. Molecular dynamics simulations confirm that ion conduction for structure models of the open but not the inactivated state. Moreover, drug docking in silico experiments show differential binding of drugs to the conformation of the three states; the inactivated one being preferentially bound by many of them. Docking results are then combined with a Markov model to get state-weighted binding free energies that are compared with experimentally measured ones.

      Strengths:

      The study uses state-of-the art modeling methods to provide detailed insights into the structure-function relationship of an important human potassium channel. AlphaFold modeling, MD simulations, and Markov modeling are nicely combined to investigate the impact of structural changes in the hERG channel on potassium conduction and drug binding.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The selection of inactivated conformations based on AlphaFold modeling seems a bit biased. The authors base their selection of the "most likely" inactivated conformation on the expected flipping of V625 and the constriction at G626 carbonyls. This follows a bit of the "Streetlight effect". It would be better to have selection criteria that are independent of what they expect to find for the inactivated state conformations. Using cues that favour sampling/modeling of the inactivated conformation, such as the deactivated conformation of the VSD used in the modeling of the closed state, would be more convincing. There may be other conformations that are more accurately representing the inactivated state. I see no objective criteria that justify the non-consideration of conformations from cluster 3 of the inactivated state modeling. I am not sure whether pLDDT is a good selection criterion. It reports on structural confidence, but that may not relate to functional relevance.

      (2) The comparison of predicted and experimentally measured binding affinities lacks an appropriate control. Using binding data from open-state conformations only is not the best control. A much better control is the use of alternative structures predicted by AlphaFold for each state (e.g. from the outlier clusters or not considered clusters) in the docking and energy calculations. Using these docking results in the calculations would reveal whether the initially selected conformations (e.g. from cluster 2 for the inactivated state) are truly doing a better job in predicting binding affinities. Such a control would strengthen the overall findings significantly.

      (3) Figures where multiple datapoints are compared across states generally lack assessment of the statistical significance of observed trends (e,g. Figure 3d).

      (4) Figure 3 and Figures S1-S4 compare structural differences between states. However, these differences are inferred from the initial models. The collection of conformations generated via the MD runs allow for much more robust comparisons of structural differences.

    2. Author response:

      Reviewer #1: 

      Summary:

      Ngo et. al use several computational methods to determine and characterize structures defining the three major states sampled by the human voltage-gated potassium channel hERG: the open, closed, and inactivated state. Specifically, they use AlphaFold and Rosetta to generate conformations that likely represent key features of the open, closed, and inactivated states of this channel. Molecular dynamics simulations confirm that ion conduction for structure models of the open but not the inactivated state. Moreover, drug docking in silico experiments show differential binding of drugs to the conformation of the three states; the inactivated one being preferentially bound by many of them. Docking results are then combined with a Markov model to get state-weighted binding free energies that are compared with experimentally measured ones.

      Strengths:

      The study uses state-of-the art modeling methods to provide detailed insights into the structure-function relationship of an important human potassium channel. AlphaFold modeling, MD simulations, and Markov modeling are nicely combined to investigate the impact of structural changes in the hERG channel on potassium conduction and drug binding.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s recognition of our integration of state-of-the-art computational methods, including AlphaFold2, Rosetta, MD simulations, and Markov modeling. We are pleased that the reviewer found our approach to investigating the structure-function relationship of the hERG channel insightful.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The selection of inactivated conformations based on AlphaFold modeling seems a bit biased. The authors base their selection of the "most likely" inactivated conformation on the expected flipping of V625 and the constriction at G626 carbonyls. This follows a bit of the "Streetlight effect". It would be better to have selection criteria that are independent of what they expect to find for the inactivated state conformations. Using cues that favour sampling/modeling of the inactivated conformation, such as the deactivated conformation of the VSD used in the modeling of the closed state, would be more convincing. There may be other conformations that are more accurately representing the inactivated state. I see no objective criteria that justify the non-consideration of conformations from cluster 3 of the inactivated state modeling. I am not sure whether pLDDT is a good selection criterion. It reports on structural confidence, but that may not relate to functional relevance.

      We acknowledge the concern regarding the selection criteria for the inactivated state models. In the revised manuscript version, we plan to broaden our selection approach and explicitly include conformations from different clusters beyond those highlighted in the initial submission (e.g., from cluster 3). We will also incorporate structural metrics that do not solely depend on the known channel inactivation hallmarks or reply on the pLDDT scores to further justify our chosen representative inactivated state models.

      (2) The comparison of predicted and experimentally measured binding affinities lacks an appropriate control. Using binding data from open-state conformations only is not the best control. A much better control is the use of alternative structures predicted by AlphaFold for each state (e.g. from the outlier clusters or not considered clusters) in the docking and energy calculations. Using these docking results in the calculations would reveal whether the initially selected conformations (e.g. from cluster 2 for the inactivated state) are truly doing a better job in predicting binding affinities. Such a control would strengthen the overall findings significantly.

      We agree that a more rigorous control for our drug-binding predictions is desirable. To address this, we will include molecular docking simulations and associated drug binding affinity estimations for more hERG channel models, including alternate conformations from the initial clustering that were not chosen as the final models. This will allow us to test whether our inactivated state structure from cluster 2 indeed outperforms or differs significantly from other possible inactivated hERG channel conformations in reproducing experimental drug potencies.

      (3) Figures where multiple datapoints are compared across states generally lack assessment of the statistical significance of observed trends (e,g. Figure 3d).

      (4) Figure 3 and Figures S1-S4 compare structural differences between states. However, these differences are inferred from the initial models. The collection of conformations generated via the MD runs allow for much more robust comparisons of structural differences.

      We will incorporate statistical analyses and measures of uncertainty for key comparisons. In Figures 3 and S1-S4 the consensus structural hERG channel models for open, inactivated and closed states are being compared, i.e. one representative model for each state. We believe this is a valid comparison, and the statistical analysis of the observed trends based on those models (e.g., in the bar plot of Figure 3d) alone might not be possible. However, we agree with the reviewer that instead of relying solely on those initial static models, we will also draw on the ensemble of states sampled during the MD simulations to quantify structural differences between different putative hERG channel states. Specifically, we will present ensemble-averaged measurements and highlight how these distributions differ significantly between states.

      Reviewer #2:

      Summary:

      Ngo et al. use AlphaFold2 and Rosetta to model closed, open, and inactive states of the human ion channel hERG. Subsequent MD simulations and comparisons with experiments support the plausibility of their models.

      Strengths:

      This is thorough work studied from many different angles. It provides a self-consistent picture of how conformational changes in hERG may affect its function and binding to different targets.

      We are grateful for the reviewer’s recognition of the thoroughness and multi-faceted nature of our study.

      Weaknesses:

      Though this work claims the methodologies can be generalized to other systems, it is not obvious how. Many modeling choices seem arbitrary and also seem to have required extensive expert knowledge of the system. This limits the applicability of the modeling strategy.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment on the generalizability of our approach. In the revision, we will more explicitly discuss the rationale behind the modeling choices and the extent to which they reflect system-specific knowledge. We will clarify how the strategies we developed (e.g., iterative refinement with AlphaFold2 and Rosetta, followed by MD simulation validation) can be adapted to other ion channels or related proteins. We will also outline a more generalizable workflow, specifying which steps require system-specific information and which steps are broadly applicable.

      Reviewer #3:

      Summary:

      The authors use Alphafold2, Rosetta, and Molecular Dynamics to model structures of the hERG K channel in open, inactive, and closed states. Experimental CryoEM data for open hERG (Wang and Mackinnon 2017), and closed EAG (Mandala and Mackinnon, 2002) were used as the main templates for channel models presented here. Given the importance of hERG as a safety pharmacology target, the identification of a robust simulation method to assess drug block is an important addition to the field.

      Strengths

      The key findings here are new inactivated and closed hERG channel conformations and hERG channel conformations with drugs docked in the inner vestibule below the selectivity filter. Amino acid pathways and interaction networks for different states are also presented.

      The inactive state and drug block models are carefully correlated with experimental data for the inactivated state of hERG (Lau et al, 2024) and with experimental free energy data for drug binding and have overall good agreement.

      It is remarkable that using cytoplasmic domain structures of hERG as a starting point revealed inactivation state structures in the hERG selectivity filter in Figures 2,3.

      We thank the reviewer for highlighting the novelty and importance of our work, particularly regarding the identification of new inactivated and closed hERG channel conformations and the modeling of drug block. We are also pleased that the reviewer found the correlation with experimental data to be strong and the structural insights to be valuable.

      Weaknesses

      Figure 6, if each data point is for a different drug, then perhaps identify each point.

      Thank you so much for this suggestion. Please note that Table 3 contains drug-specific data plotted in Figure 6 including drug names. We will provide a reference to Table 3 in the revised Figure 6 caption. We will also revise Figure 6 (and any similar figures) to clearly identify each data point with the corresponding drug and/or include a corresponding key in the Figure legend. This will make it easier to correlate each data point’s binding prediction with the experimental datasets.

      The PAS domain was not included in the models as stated in Methods page 14 but the PAS does appear in some of the templates used as starting points for models in Figure 1 a,b,c. Perhaps mentioning that the PAS was not included in some (all?) of the final models should be moved into the main text and discussed.

      The drug block of 1b channels (which do not contain PAS) has been reported to be slightly different than that for 1a channels (which contain PAS) and for 1a/1b channels (see London et al., 1997; https://doi.org/10.1161/01.RES.81.5.870 and Abi-Gerges et. al., 2011; DOI: 10.1111/j.1476-5381.2011.01378.x) and this should be discussed since the models presented here appear to be performed in the absence of the PAS.

      It also appears that the N-linker region (between PAS and the S1) and distal C region of hERG (post CNBHD-COOH) are not included in models, please state this if correct, and discuss.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s insightful comment regarding the PAS domain and the potential influence of other regions, such as the N-linker and distal C-region, on hERG channel drug binding and state transitions.

      The PAS domain did appear in the starting templates used for initial structural modeling (as shown in Figure 1a, b, c), but it was not included in the final models used for subsequent analyses. Similarly, the N-linker and the distal C-region were also omitted from the final models. These omissions were primarily due to hardware constraints used for AlphaFold structural modeling, as including these additional protein regions would exceed the memory capacity of graphical processing unit (GPU) cards on our available intramural, external and cloud high-performance computing resources, leading to failures during the protein structure prediction step.

      The PAS domain of hERG 1a isoform, even if not serving as a direct drug-binding site, can influence the gating kinetics of hERG channels as the reviewer pointed out. By altering the probability and duration with which those ion channels occupy specific conformational states, it can indirectly affect how well drugs bind. For example, if the presence of the PAS domain shifts channel gating so that more channels enter (and remain in) the inactivated state, drugs with a higher affinity for that state would appear to bind more potently, as observed in electrophysiological experiments. It is also plausible that the PAS domain could exert allosteric effects that alter the conformational landscape of the ion channel during gating transitions, potentially impacting drug accessibility or binding stability. This is an intriguing hypothesis and an important avenue for future research.

      With access to more powerful computational resources, it would be valuable to explore the full-length hERG 1a channel, including the PAS domain and associated regions, to assess their potential contributions to drug binding and gating dynamics. We will incorporate a discussion of these points into the main text, acknowledging the limitations of our current models, citing the references provided by the reviewer, and highlighting the need for future studies to explore these protein regions in greater detail.

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Howard et al. performed deep mutational scanning on the MC4R gene, using a reporter assay to investigate two distinct downstream pathways across multiple experimental conditions. They validated their findings with ClinVar data and previous studies. Additionally, they provided insights into the application of DMS results for personalized drug therapy and differential ligand responses across variant types.

      Strengths:

      They captured over 99% of variants with robust signals and investigated subtle functionalities, such as pathway-specific activities and interactions with different ligands, by refining both the experimental design and analytical methods.

      Weaknesses:

      While the study generated informative results, it lacks a detailed explanation regarding the input library, replicate correlation, and sequencing depth for a given number of cells. Additionally, there are several questions that it would be helpful for authors to clarify.

      (1) It would be helpful to clarify the information regarding the quality of the input library and experimental replicates. Are variants evenly represented in the library? Additionally, have the authors considered using long-read sequencing to confirm the presence of a single intended variant per construct? Finally, could the authors provide details on the correlation between experimental replicates under each condition?

      (2) Since the functional readout of variants is conducted through RNA sequencing, it seems crucial to sequence a sufficient number of cells with adequate sequencing saturation. Could the authors clarify the coverage depth used for each RNA-seq experiment and how this depth was determined? Additionally, how many cells were sequenced in each experiment?

      (3) It appears that the frequencies of individual RNA-seq barcode variants were used as a proxy for MR4C activity. Would it be important to also normalize for heterogeneity in RNA-seq coverage across different cells in the experiment? Variability in cell representation (i.e., the distribution of variants across cells) could lead to misinterpretation of variant effects. For example, suppose barcode_a1 represents variant A and barcode_b1 represents variant B. If the RNA-seq results show 6 reads for barcode_a1 and 7 reads for barcode_b1, it might initially appear that both variants have similar effect sizes. However, if these reads correspond to 6 separate cells each containing 1 copy of barcode_a1, and only 1 cell containing 7 copies of barcode_b1, the interpretation changes significantly. Additionally, if certain variants occupy a larger proportion of the cell population, they are more likely to be overrepresented in RNA sequencing.

      (4) Although the assay system appears to effectively represent MC4R functionality at the molecular level, we are curious about the potential disparity between the DMS score system and physiological relevance. How do variants reported in gnomAD distribute within the DMS scoring system?

      (5) To measure Gq signaling, the authors used the GAL4-VPR relay system. Is there additional experimental data to support that this relay system accurately represents Gq signaling?

      (6) Identifying the variants responsive to the corrector was impressive. However, we are curious about how the authors confirmed that the restoration of MC4R activity was due to the correction of the MC4R protein itself. Is there a possibility that the observed effect could be influenced by other factors affected by the corrector? When the corrector was applied to the cells, were any expected or unexpected differential gene expression changes observed?

      (7) As mentioned in the introduction, gain-of-function (GoF) variants are known to be protective against obesity. It would be interesting to see further studies on the observed GoF variants. Do the authors have any plans for additional research on these variants?

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      The authors, Zhang et al., demonstrate the beneficial effects of treating degenerate human primary intervertebral disc (IVD) cells with recombinant human PDGF-AB/BB on the senescence transcriptomic signatures. Utilizing a combination of degenerate cells from elderly humans and experimentally induced senescence in young, healthy IVD cells, the authors show the therapeutic effects on mRNA transcription as well as cellular processes through informatics approaches.

      One notable strength of this study is the use of human primary cells and recombinant forms of human PDGF-AB/BB proteins, which increases the translational potential of these in vitro studies. The manuscript is well-written, and the informatics analyses are thorough and clearly presented.

      However, in its current form, the study does not provide sufficient experimental details, and clarifications are needed. These are as follows:

      (1) The source of PDGF-AB/BB proteins is not detailed.<br /> (2) The irradiation parameters are not adequately reported - the authors should consider (PMCID: PMC5495460) for the parameters that should be reported.<br /> (3) The criteria for young and old patient donors are not explicitly described - though from the table, one presumes the cut-off for young is 27 years old.<br /> (4) What is the rationale for using different concentrations of PDGF-AB/BB in the degenerate cell and irradiation experiments?

      There are also a number of other issues the authors could consider. First, in the title and throughout the manuscript, the effects of PDGF-AB/BB are described as protective, yet in all the experiments, PDGF-AB/BB appears to be administered following either in vivo degeneration or in vitro irradiation, where protective effects (e.g., administration prior to insult) were not tested. Therefore, the effects of PDGF-AB/BB may be more accurately described as mitigating or therapeutic rather than protective.

      The authors state that the focus on NP (nucleus pulposus) cell studies is due to NP being the first site impacted during degeneration. However, this reviewer believes that this is because changes in the NP are more clinically evident (by imaging methods), despite degeneration often initiating from the AF (annulus fibrosus), e,g. through tears/microtears.

      A prior study has examined the effects of X-ray irradiation on NF-kB signaling in young and aged IVDs (PMCID: PMC5495460), and the authors may wish to consider this work.

    1. Nasıl yardımcı olabilirim?

      Sen bu alanda çok tanınmış, çok önemli yaklaşımları, teorileri ve eserleri olan bir bilim insanı, çok yüksek bir profesörsün. Çok ayrıntılı bir şekilde bu soruları yanıtla, Ayrıca tüm sorulara son derece yenilikçi bir yaklaşımla yanıt ver:

      1) Bunu bana ayrıntılarıyla açıkla.

      2) Çok ayrıntılı olarak ve önemli orijinal yönlerini vurgulayarak özetle.

      3) Bu bilgi çalışmalarım için nasıl faydalı olabilir?

      4) Bunu temel alarak bir araştırma önerisi oluştur.

      5) Bu çalışmanın sınırlamaları nelerdir?

      6) Yazarın kullandığı teorik çerçeve nedir?

      7) Verilen deyim ile ne kastedildiğinin yanıtını ver.

      8) Hakkındaki olumlu ve olumsuz değerlendirmeleri sebepleriyle birlikte ve illiyet bağını, yani “sebepler ne şekilde işleyerek bu sonuçları ortaya çıkarmışlardır?”, vurgulayarak açıkla.

      9) Tüm yanıtların için alıntı yaptığın eserlerin bulunduğu linkleri mutlaka ver.

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, the authors discovered MYL3 of marine medaka (Oryzias melastigma) as a novel NNV entry receptor, elucidating its facilitation of RGNNV entry into host cells through macropinocytosis, mediated by the IGF1R-Rac1/Cdc42 pathway.

      Strengths:

      In this manuscript, the authors have performed in vitro and in vivo experiments to prove that MnMYL3 may serve as a receptor for NNV via macropinocytosis pathway. These experiments with different methods include Co-IP, RNAi, pulldown, SPR, flow cytometry, immunofluorescence assays, and so on. In general, the results are clearly presented in the manuscript.

      Weaknesses:

      For the writing in the introduction and discussion sections, the author Yao et al mainly focus on the viral pathogens and fish in Aquaculture, the meaning and novelty of results provided in this manuscript are limited, and not broad in biology. The authors should improve the likely impact of their work on the viral infection field, maybe also in the evolutionary field with the fish model.

      (1) Myosin is a big family, why did authors choose MYL3 as a candidate receptor for NNV?

      (2) What is the relationship between MmMYL3 and MmHSP90ab1 and other known NNV receptors? Why does NNV have so many receptors? Which one is supposed to serve as the key entry receptor?

      (3) In vivo knockout of MYL3 using CRISPR-Cas9 should be conducted to verify whether the absence of MYL3 really inhibits NNV infection. Although it might be difficult to do it in marine medaka as stated by the authors, the introduction of zebrafish is highly recommended, since it has already been reported that zebrafish could serve as a vertebrate model to study NNV (doi: 10.3389/fimmu.2022.863096).

      (4) The results shown in Figure 6 are not enough to support the conclusion that "RGNNV triggers macropinocytosis mediated by MmMYL3". Additional electron microscopy of macropinosomes (sizes, morphological characteristics, etc.) will be more direct evidence.

      (5) MYL3 is "predominantly found in muscle tissues, particularly the heart and skeletal muscles". However, NNV is a virus that mainly causes necrosis of nervous tissues (brain and retina). If MYL3 really acts as a receptor for NNV, how does it balance this difference so that nervous tissues, rather than muscle tissues, have the highest viral titers?

    1. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This work investigates transcriptional responses to varying levels of transcription factors (TFs). The authors aim for gradual up- and down-regulation of three transcription factors GFI1B, NFE2, and MYB in K562 cells, by using a CRISPRa- and a CRISPRi line, together with sgRNAs of varying potency. Targeted single-cell RNA sequencing is then used to measure gene expression of a set of 90 genes, which were previously shown to be downstream of GFI1B and NFE2 regulation. This is followed by an extensive computational analysis of the scRNA-seq dataset. By grouping cells with the same perturbations, the authors can obtain groups of cells with varying average TF expression levels. The achieved perturbations are generally subtle, not reaching half or double doses for most samples, and up-regulation is generally weak below 1.5-fold in most cases. Even in this small range, many target genes exhibit a non-linear response. Since this is rather unexpected, it is crucial to rule out technical reasons for these observations.

      Strengths:

      The work showcases how a single dataset of CRISPRi/a perturbations with scRNA-seq readout and an extended computational analysis can be used to estimate transcriptome dose responses, a general approach that likely can be built upon in the future.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The experiment was only performed in a single replicate. In the absence of an independent validation of the main findings, the robustness of the observations remains unclear.

      (2) The analysis is based on the calculation of log-fold changes between groups of single cells with non-targeting controls and those carrying a guide RNA driving a specific knockdown. How the fold changes were calculated exactly remains unclear, since it is only stated that the FindMarkers function from the Seurat package was used, which is likely not optimal for quantitative estimates. Furthermore, differential gene expression analysis of scRNA-seq data can suffer from data distortion and mis-estimations (Heumos et al. 2023 (https://doi.org/10.1038/s41576-023-00586-w), Nguyen et al. 2023 (https://doi.org/10.1038/s41467-023-37126-3)). In general, the pseudo-bulk approach used is suitable, but the correct treatment of drop-outs in the scRNA-seq analysis is essential.

      (3) Two different cell lines are used to construct dose-response curves, where a CRISPRi line allows gene down-regulation and the CRISPRa line allows gene upregulation. Although both lines are derived from the same parental line (K562) the expression analysis of Tet2, which is absent in the CRISPRi line, but expressed in the CRISPRa line (Figure S3A) suggests substantial clonal differences between the two lines. Similarly, the PCA in S4A suggests strong batch effects between the two lines. These might confound this analysis.

      (4) The study uses pseudo-bulk analysis to estimate the relationship between TF dose and target gene expression. This requires a system that allows quantitative changes in TF expression. The data provided does not convincingly show that this condition is met, which however is an essential prerequisite for the presented conclusions. Specifically, the data shown in Figure S3A shows that upon stronger knock-down, a subpopulation of cells appears, where the targeted TF is not detected anymore (drop-outs). Also Figure 3B (top) suggests that the knock-down is either subtle (similar to NTCs) or strong, but intermediate knock-down (log2-FC of 0.5-1) does not occur. Although the authors argue that this is a technical effect of the scRNA-seq protocol, it is also possible that this represents a binary behavior of the CRISPRi system. Previous work has shown that CRISPRi systems with the KRAB domain largely result in binary repression and not in gradual down-regulation as suggested in this study (Bintu et al. 2016 (https://doi.org/10.1126/science.aab2956), Noviello et al. 2023 (https://doi.org/10.1038/s41467-023-38909-4)).

      (5) One of the major conclusions of the study is that non-linear behavior is common. This is not surprising for gene up-regulation, since gene expression will reach a plateau at some point, but it is surprising to be observed for many genes upon TF down-regulation. Specifically, here the target gene responds to a small reduction of TF dose but shows the same response to a stronger knock-down. It would be essential to show that his observation does not arise from the technical concerns described in the previous point and it would require independent experimental validations.

      (6) One of the conclusions of the study is that guide tiling is superior to other methods such as sgRNA mismatches. However, the comparison is unfair, since different numbers of guides are used in the different approaches. Relatedly, the authors point out that tiling sometimes surpassed the effects of TSS-targeting sgRNAs, however, this was the least fair comparison (2 TSS vs 10 tiling guides) and additionally depends on the accurate annotation of TSS in the relevant cell line.

      (7) Did the authors achieve their aims? Do the results support the conclusions?: Some of the most important conclusions are not well supported because they rely on accurately determining the quantitative responses of trans genes, which suffers from the previously mentioned concerns.

      (8) Discussion of the likely impact of the work on the field, and the utility of the methods and data to the community:<br /> Together with other recent publications, this work emphasizes the need to study transcription factor function with quantitative perturbations. Missing documentation of the computational code repository reduces the utility of the methods and data significantly.

    1. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Soares et al characterize several P. falciparum exported proteins that localize to Maurer's Clefts (MCs), membrane structures formed in the host erythrocyte cytosol. MCs are thought to act as sorting stations that mediate the trafficking of effector proteins to the erythrocyte membrane, such as the surface adhesin and major virulence factor PfEMP1. While initially mobile within the host cytosol, MCs become anchored at the erythrocyte periphery around the time PfEMP1 appears on the RBC surface. While MC immobilization is thought to be important for the delivery of PfEMP1 onto the erythrocyte surface, this hypothesis has remained untested due to the lack of mutants that prevent anchoring. The study begins by determining the sequence features able to mediate the export of PF3D7_0830300 and MSRP6, both PEXEL-Negative Exported Proteins (PNEPs) with signal peptides. The authors show that in both proteins, a region downstream of the signal peptide is sufficient to mediate export, indicating the mature N-terminus is also important for the translocation of this type of PNEP, similar to other classes of exported proteins. Surprisingly, an additional C-terminal region of MSRP6 is also sufficient to mediate export when placed downstream of the signal peptide in the absence of other MSRP6 features. This region also mediates recruitment to MCs and was used as BioID bait to identify proximal MC proteins, several of which form a complex with MSRP6. Strikingly, disruption of certain MSRP6 interacting proteins (PeMP2, PIESP2, and Pf332) abolishes MC anchoring and in some cases also results in major changes in MC morphology. Surprisingly, neither PfEMP1 surface display nor cytoadhesion of infected RBCs is impacted in these mutants. This study features an impressive array of genetically modified parasites and will be of broad interest in providing the first functional analysis of MC anchoring, challenging the prevailing model for PfEMP1 trafficking within the infected RBC.

      Strengths:

      (1) The first section of the paper presents an in-depth dissection of the features that enable the export of signal peptide-containing PNEPs, confirming the mature N-terminus is sufficient for export across all known types of exported proteins. While it remains unknown how these features enable export, the results reinforce the universal importance of the mature N-terminus, whether generated by signal peptidase or Plasmepsin 5.

      (2) The discovery that a C-terminal region of MSRP6 (MAD) is also sufficient for export is novel. The authors suggest this may be the result of piggybacking on another exported protein, although the discussion acknowledges there are challenges with this model since unfolding by PTEX would be expected to disrupt these interactions. An alternative might be considered: the related protein MSRP7 is also exported but consists essentially of a signal peptide and MSP7-like domain without the large N-terminal region found in MSRP6. Presumably, the mature N-terminus of MSRP7 mediates export. If MSRP6 is derived from an exported predecessor composed only of the MSP7-like domain (like MSRP7), the MAD domain might retain the ancestral export information near the beginning of the MSP7-like domain. If this were the case, then the MAD domain (3cd region) should only be sufficient to mediate export when positioned immediately after the signal peptide as in the experiment in Fig 3C (SP-3cd-GFP). It would be interesting to determine if an SP-GFP-3cd construct is exported.

      (3) Disruption of PeMP2, PIESP2 or Pf332 is found to prevent MC anchoring. This is the most exciting part of the study as it provides the first set of mutants that interfere with anchoring, enabling the surprising observation that MC immobilization is not important for PfEMP1 surface display or cytoadhesion. The MC movement assay is a nice way to visualize anchoring and would be strengthened by a quantitative measure of colocalization between the time-lapse images (ie, Pearson correlation coefficient) to enable a statistical test. The use of SLI to specifically activate a var gene of choice is an exciting new approach that will be of great use to the PfEMP1 field together with the semi-automated binding assay that helps to increase throughput and reduce bias.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) At least two of the MSRP6 complex members were found to depend on other complex members for MC trafficking: PeMP3 depends on MSRP6 and Pf332 depends on PIESP2 (previously shown by Zhang et al 2018 and confirmed in the present study). While the authors disrupted all seven MSRP6 complex members, the impact on the trafficking of the other complex members was not systematically investigated. It would be particularly interesting to know which (if any) complex members are required for MC recruitment of PeMP2 since this protein is also needed for MC anchoring.

      (2) Some images of exported puncta are interpreted as localization to the MCs without a co-marker. Since other compartments have been identified in the RBC cytosol in addition to MCs (ie, J dots), an MC co-marker would help to verify these actually correspond to MCs. For example, in Figure 5B, GEXP18 gives an exported punctate appearance but lack of co-localization with SBP1 in Fig S2B shows that this does not correspond to MCs.

      (3) The authors show MAHRP2 localization is not impacted in their PIESP2 and Pf332 mutants and this is interpreted to indicate the tether structures are not disrupted. However, this conclusion requires actual analysis of the tether structures by electron microscopy since MAHRP2 association to MCs may not require tether integrity and could persist even if the tethers are altered or disrupted. Otherwise, this statement should be adjusted. Additionally, since T2A skipping efficiency can vary between constructs, it would be a good idea to perform a western blot to ensure that the SBP1-GFP and MAHRP2-mScarlet signals in Figure 8D,F reflect separated proteins.

      (4) The trypsin assays to monitor PfEMP1 surface display would benefit from a more detailed explanation of how the results were interpreted. For instance, though perhaps less intense than in the PIESP2, Pf332, and MSRP6 mutants, a Var01-protected fragment is also seen in the SBP1 mutant. Additionally, a protected fragment is indicated for most of the SBP1N controls (asterisk). As per the author's experimental design (lines 956-957), does this indicate that the RBC membrane was partially compromised during the experiment? In line 505, the trypsin assay data in the mutants is interpreted relative to the parent IT4var01-HA line but no data is shown for the parent.

    1. Biology Cheat Sheet: Cells and Chemistry of Life

      Cells 1: Chemistry of Life

      1.1(a) Major Macromolecules

      • Carbohydrates: Composed of C, H, O. Main function: energy storage (e.g., glucose) and structure (e.g., cellulose in plants).
      • Lipids: Composed of C, H, O (sometimes P). Main function: energy storage, insulation, and cell membrane structure (phospholipids).
      • Proteins: Composed of C, H, O, N (sometimes S). Main function: catalysis (enzymes), structure, transport, and signaling.
      • Nucleic Acids: Composed of C, H, O, N, P. Main function: genetic information storage (DNA) and transfer (RNA).

      1.2(a) Role of Macromolecules

      • Carbohydrates provide quick energy and structural support.
      • Lipids form cell membranes and serve as long-term energy reserves.
      • Proteins enable biochemical reactions, structural support, and cellular communication.
      • Nucleic acids store and transmit genetic information.

      1.3(a) Enzymes and Reaction Rates

      • Enzymes lower activation energy, increasing reaction speed without being consumed.
      • Specificity: enzymes bind substrates at their active site, forming enzyme-substrate complexes.

      1.3(b) Effects of pH/Temperature on Enzymes

      • Extreme pH or high temperatures can denature enzymes, altering their active sites.
      • Optimal conditions ensure maximum enzyme efficiency.

      1.4(a) ATP in Biological Systems

      • ATP (adenosine triphosphate) stores energy in phosphate bonds.
      • Hydrolysis of ATP provides energy for cellular processes like muscle contraction and active transport.

      1.4(b) Energy & Nutrient Diversity

      • Species have unique metabolic needs based on their environment and activity level (e.g., endotherms vs. ectotherms).

      1.4(c) Predicting Energy Needs

      • Data such as basal metabolic rate (BMR) and activity levels help predict energy requirements.

      Cells 2: Cell Structure and Function

      2.1(a) Shared Characteristics of Biological Systems

      • All cells have a membrane, cytoplasm, DNA, and ribosomes.
      • Common metabolic pathways, such as glycolysis, are shared across life forms.

      2.2(a) Comparing Cell Structures

      • Prokaryotes: no nucleus, smaller, lack organelles (e.g., bacteria).
      • Eukaryotes: nucleus, larger, membrane-bound organelles (e.g., plants, animals).
      • Plant vs. Animal Cells: plants have cell walls, chloroplasts, and large vacuoles; animals have centrioles.

      2.3(a) Specialized Cell Functions

      • Example: Red blood cells (no nucleus, hemoglobin for O2 transport).
      • Example: Root hair cells (increased surface area for water absorption).

      2.3(b) Ecological Roles of Cells

      • Plant cells (chloroplasts) convert sunlight to energy for ecosystems.
      • Fungal hyphae absorb nutrients, recycling organic matter.

      Cells 3: Cell Transport and Homeostasis

      3.1(a) Cell Membranes and Homeostasis

      • Semi-permeable membrane regulates solute and water movement.
      • Maintains balance in ions, nutrients, and waste.

      3.1(b) Membrane Structure & Function

      • Phospholipid bilayer: hydrophilic heads, hydrophobic tails.
      • Proteins: channels, carriers, receptors.
      • Cholesterol: maintains fluidity.

      3.2(a) Passive Transport

      • Diffusion: movement of molecules from high to low concentration.
      • Osmosis: water movement through a semi-permeable membrane.

      3.2(b) Active Transport

      • Requires energy (ATP) to move substances against their gradient (e.g., sodium-potassium pump).

      3.2(c) Predicting Solute Movement

      • Hypertonic solutions cause cell shrinkage (water leaves).
      • Hypotonic solutions cause cell swelling (water enters).

      3.3(a) Cell Size and Efficiency

      • Smaller cells have higher surface area-to-volume ratios, enhancing material exchange.

      Cells 4: Organisms Maintaining Homeostasis

      4.1(a) Organ Systems

      • Systems like the respiratory and circulatory work together to deliver oxygen and remove CO2.

      4.1(b) Disruption in Homeostasis

      • Example: Diabetes disrupts blood glucose regulation.

      4.2(a) Tropisms and Taxes

      • Tropisms: growth towards/away from stimuli (e.g., phototropism).
      • Taxes: movement towards/away from stimuli (e.g., chemotaxis).

      4.2(b) Environmental Changes

      • Example: Sweating to cool body temperature.

      Cells 5: Cell Growth and Division

      5.1(a) Growth Phases

      • G1: Cell growth.
      • S: DNA replication.
      • G2: Preparation for division.

      5.1(b) Regulation of Cell Cycle

      • Cyclins and kinases ensure proper timing.

      5.2(a) Chromosome Duplication

      • Ensures genetic consistency in daughter cells.

      5.2(b) Phases of Mitosis

      • Prophase, Metaphase, Anaphase, Telophase.
      • Cytokinesis divides cytoplasm.

      5.2(c) Consequences of Dysregulation

      • Uncontrolled cell division can lead to cancer.

      5.3(a) Viruses vs. Cells

      • Viruses: no cell membrane, require host to replicate.
      • Cells: self-sufficient life forms.

      5.3(b) Viral Effects

      • Viruses hijack host machinery, disrupting normal functions.

      Cells 6: Photosynthesis

      6.1(a) Ecological Importance

      • Produces oxygen, essential for life.
      • Basis of food chains.

      6.1(b) Photosynthesis Process

      • Light-dependent reactions: convert solar energy into ATP and NADPH.
      • Calvin cycle: fixes CO2 into glucose.

      6.1(c) Factors Affecting Photosynthesis

      • Light intensity, CO2 concentration, temperature.

      Cells 7: Cellular Respiration and Fermentation

      7.1(a) Producer-Consumer Dependency

      • Producers provide glucose; consumers release CO2 for producers.

      7.1(b) Usable Energy

      • Glucose broken down into ATP through glycolysis, Krebs cycle, and ETC.

      7.1(c) Energy Storage

      • Stored as glycogen (animals) or starch (plants).

      7.2(a) Importance of Fermentation

      • Produces ATP in the absence of oxygen.

      7.2(b) Anaerobic Energy Transfer

      • Lactic acid fermentation: occurs in muscle cells.
      • Alcoholic fermentation: used by yeast.

      Cell Vocabulary

      • Cell Membrane: A semi-permeable membrane that surrounds the cell, regulating material exchange.
      • Cell Wall: Rigid outer layer in plant cells, fungi, and some prokaryotes, providing structure and protection.
      • Capsule: Outer layer in some bacteria, offering additional protection and aiding in adherence.
      • Centriole: Organelles involved in cell division in animal cells, organizing microtubules.
      • Chloroplast: Organelles in plant cells where photosynthesis occurs.
      • Cytoplasm: Gel-like substance filling the cell, containing organelles and facilitating movement.
      • Cytoskeleton: Network of fibers providing structural support, shape, and aiding intracellular transport.
      • Endoplasmic Reticulum (ER): Network of membranes involved in protein (rough ER) and lipid (smooth ER) synthesis.
      • Flagellum: Long, whip-like structure aiding in cell movement.
      • Golgi Apparatus: Modifies, sorts, and packages proteins and lipids for transport.
      • Lysosome: Organelle containing enzymes to break down waste and cellular debris.
      • Mitochondria: Powerhouse of the cell, generating ATP through cellular respiration.
      • Nucleoid: Region in prokaryotic cells where DNA is concentrated.
      • Nuclear Membrane: Double membrane surrounding the nucleus, controlling substance movement in/out.
      • Nucleolus: Dense region within the nucleus where ribosome synthesis occurs.
      • Nucleus: Control center of the cell, housing genetic material (DNA).
      • Organelle: Specialized structures within cells performing distinct functions.
      • Pilus: Hair-like structure on bacterial cells aiding in attachment and DNA transfer.
      • Plasmid: Small, circular DNA in prokaryotes, often carrying genes for antibiotic resistance.
      • Plastid: Organelles in plant cells involved in photosynthesis or storage.
      • Ribosome: Site of protein synthesis.
      • Vacuole: Storage organelle for water, nutrients, and waste; larger in plant cells.
      • Vesicle: Small membrane-bound sacs for transporting materials within or outside the cell.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Overall authors’ response

      We would like to thank the 3 reviewers for a thorough critique of our manuscript, and acknowledging the novelty and importance of our studies, in particular the relevance to collagenrelated pathologies such as idiopathic pulmonary fibrosis and chronic skin wound. We appreciate that there are shortcomings in these studies, as highlighted by reviewers; we have rewritten parts of our manuscript to clarify any misunderstandings, and conducted additional experiments to address concerns raised by reviewers (please see below red text within each response), which have been incorporated into our revised manuscript (modified text highlighted in yellow in revised manuscript). We believe that the revision had made our manuscript stronger in support of our original conclusions. 

      Public Reviews: 

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      The authors describe that the endocytic pathway is crucial for ColI fibrillogenesis. ColI is endocytosed by fibroblasts, prior to exocytosis and formation of fibrils, which can include a mixture of endogenous/nascent ColI chains and exogenous ColI. ColI uptake and fibrillogenesis are regulated by circadian rhythm as described by the authors in 2020, thanks to the dependence of this pathway on circadian-clock-regulated protein VPS33B. Cells are capable of forming fibrils with recently endocytosed ColI when nascent chains are not available. Previously identified VPS33B is demonstrated not to have a role in endocytosis of ColI, but to play a role in fibril formation, which the authors demonstrate by showing the loss of fibril formation in VPS33B KO, and an excess of insoluble fibrils - along-side a decrease in soluble ColI secretion - in VPS33B overexpression conditions. A VPS33B binding protein VIPAS39 is also shown to be required for fibrillogenesis and to colocalise with ColI. The authors thus conclude that ColI is internalised into endosomal structures within the cell, and that ColI, VPS33B, and VIPA39 are co-trafficked to the site of fibrillogenesis, where along with ITGA11, which by mass spectrometric analysis is shown to be regulated by VPS33B levels, ColI fibrils are formed. Interestingly, in involved human skin sections from idiopathic pulmonary fibrosis (IPF) patients, ITGA11 and VPS33B expression is increased compared to healthy tissue, while in patient-derived fibroblasts, uptake of fluorescently-labelled ColI is also increased. This suggests that there may be a significant contribution of endocytosis-dependent fibrillogenesis in the formation of fibrotic and chronic wound-healing diseases in humans. 

      Strengths: 

      This is an interesting paper that contributes an exciting novel understanding of the formation of fibrotic disease, which despite its high occurrence, still has no robust therapeutic options. The precise mechanisms of fibrillogenesis are also not well understood, so a study devoted to this complex and key mechanism is well appreciated. The dependence of fibrillogenesis on VPS33B and VIPA39 is convincing and robust, while the distinction between soluble ColI secretion and insoluble fibrillar ColI is interesting and informative. 

      Weaknesses: 

      There are a number of limitations to this study in its current state. Inhibition of ColI uptake is performed using Dyngo4a, which although proposed as an inhibitor of Clathrin-dependent endocytosis is known to be quite un-specific. This may not be a problem however, as the endocytic mechanism for ColI also does not seem to be well defined in the literature, in fact, the principle mechanism described in the papers referred to by the authors is that of phagocytosis.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. Macropinocytosis or phagocytosis could be modelled using high molecular weight dextran, and we have used fluorescently-labelled dextran to investigate potential co-localisation with exogenous collagen to investigate the involvement of these mechanisms in addition to endocytosis, and showed very little co-localisation (revised Figure S2B, lines 123-126). Further, we have performed a competition experiment where unlabelled collagen was added in excess at the same time as labelled collagen and showed that excess unlabelled collagen led to a retention of labelled collagen at the cell periphery (revised Figure S2C, lines 126-129). This is suggestive of collagen-I uptake utilises a different pathway to dextran (i.e. fluid-phase endocytosis) and is a receptor-mediated process.  

      It would be interesting to explore this important part of the mechanism further, especially in relation to the intracellular destination of ColI.

      We agree with the reviewer that the intracellular destination of ColI is very interesting, which is what the current Chang lab is investigating, although we believe the research findings fall out of scope for the revised manuscript here. However, we have included additional immunofluorescence data to support that collagen is indeed taken up into endosomal compartments using GFP-tagged Rab5 constructs (revised Figure 1D, Figure S6A).

      The circadian regulation does not appear as robust as the authors' last paper, however, there could be a larger lag between endocytosis of ColI and realisation of fibrils.

      The authors state that the endocytic pathway is the mechanism of trafficking and that they show ColI, VPS33B, and VIPA39 are co-trafficked. However, the only link that is put forward to the endosomes is rather tenuously through VPS33B/VIPA39.

      We would like to clarify that we meant the post-Golgi compartment. We did not mean VPS33b/VIPAS39 as an endosome marker; however as we see collagen entering the cell in intracellular compartments, which is then recycled, we take that as convention, the endosome would be involved. This is further supported that we see some colocalisation with the classic Rab5 endosome marker.

      There is no direct demonstration of ColI localisation to endosomes (ie. immunofluorescence), and this is overstated throughout the text.

      We appreciate the comment and have modified overstatements in the revised manuscript as appropriate. As stated above, we have included additional immunofluorescence data to support that collagen is indeed taken up into endosomal compartments.

      Demonstrating the intracellular trafficking and localisation of ColI, and its actual relationship to VPS33B and VIPA39, followed by ITGA11, would broaden the relevance of this paper significantly to incorporate the field of protein trafficking. Finally, the "self-formation" of ColI fibrils is discussed in relation to the literature and the concentration of fluorescently-tagged ColI, however as the key message of the paper is the fibrillogenesis from exocytosed colI, I do not feel like it is demonstrated to leave no doubt. Specific inhibition of intracellular trafficking steps, or following the progressive formation of ColI fibrils over time by immunofluorescence would demonstrate without any further doubt that ColI must be endocytosed first, to form fibrils as a secondary step, rather than externally-added ColI being incorporated directly to fibrils, independent of cellular uptake.

      We appreciate the concern raised here. This is precisely why we trypsinised and replated cells as part of the workflow, so we can make sure that there is no residual exogenous collagen which is not endocytosed being incorporated onto pre-existing fibrils. We have new data using flow imaging, which showed that cells that don’t endocytose exogenous collagen has accumulation of said collagen at the periphery of the cells, which is greatly reduced after trypsinisation. This new data is in a more detailed methodology-based study which is under preparation, which will allow future studies to further dissect the collagen intracellular trafficking process, and thus is not included in the revised manuscript. 

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      In this manuscript, the authors describe a mechanism, by which fluorescently-labelled Collagen type

      I is taken up by cells via endocytosis and then incorporated into newly synthesized fibers via an ITGA11 and VPS33B-dependent mechanism. The authors claim the existence of this collagen recycling mechanism and link it to fibrotic diseases such as IPF and chronic wounds. 

      Strengths: 

      he manuscript is well-written, and experimentally contains a broad variation of assays to support their conclusions. Also, the authors added data of IPF patient-derived fibroblasts, patient-derived lung samples, and patient-derived samples of chronic wounds that highlight a potential in vivo disease correlation of their findings. 

      The authors were also analyzing the membrane topology of VPS33B and could unravel a likely 'hairpin' like conformation in the ER membrane. 

      Weaknesses: 

      Experimental evidence is missing that supports the non-degradative endocytosis of the labeled collagen.

      We thank the reviewer for raising this. We would like to clarify that we do not think that all endocytosed collagen-I is recycled, but rather sorted in the endosome which determines the fate of endocytosed collagen. Interestingly, results from Kadler’s group has shown that blocking lysosome function (through chloroqine and bafilomycin) significantly reduced endogenous collagen fibril formation (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2024.05.09.593302v1), suggesting a nondegradative role for lysosome in fibrillogenesis.   

      The authors show and mention in the text that the endocytosis inhibitor Dyngo®4a shows an effect on collagen secretion. It is not clear to me how specific this readout is if the inhibitor affects more than endocytosis. This issue was unfortunately not further discussed.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment and have included in discussion the specificity of Dyngo4a (revised manuscript lines 383392). The ponceau stain suggests that Dyngo4a treatment did not affect global secretion and thus the effects are specific to collagen-I (Fig 2B).

      The authors use commercial rat tail collagen, it is unclear to me which state the collagen is in when it's endocytosed. Is it fully assembled as collagen fiber or are those single heterotrimers or homotrimers?

      We apologise for the confusion and will clarify in our revision. These would be single helical trimers from acid-extracted rat tail collagen. We have performed additional light scattering and CD spectra to confirm the molecular weight and helicity, and confirm that adding fluorescent tags did not alter the readout. We have included this in the revised manuscript (revised Figure S1A-C, manuscript lines 82-86).    

      The Cy-labeled collagen is clearly incorporated into new fibers, but I'm not sure whether the collagen is needed to be endocytosed to be incorporated into the fibers or if that is happening in the extracellular space mediated by the cells.

      We appreciate the concern raised here, which is also raised by reviewer 1. As answered above, this is why we trypsinised and replated cells as part of the workflow, so we can make sure that there is no residual exogenous collagen being incorporated onto pre-existing fibrils. We also have new data using flow imaging, which shows that cells that don’t endocytose exogenous collagen has accumulation of said collagen at the periphery of the cells, which is greatly reduced after trypsinisation. This new data is in a methodology-based manuscript which is under preparation, thus will not be included in the revised manuscript.  

      In general for the collagen blots, due to the lack of molecular weight markers, what chain/form of collagen type I are you showing here?

      Apologies for the lack of molecular weight markers, it was an oversight by the authors and have been included in the revised figures.  

      Besides the VPS33B siRNA transfected cells the authors also use CRISPR/Cas9-generated KO. The KO cells do not seem to be a clean system, as there is still a lot of mRNA produced. Were the clones sequenced to verify the KO on a genomic level?

      Yes, the clones were verified and used in our previous paper on circadian control of collagen homeostasis. There are instances where despite knockout at the protein level, mRNA is still persistent; however these transcripts are likely then directed to degradation through nonsense-mediated mRNA decay. To fully understand this mechanism is beyond the scope of this paper. 

      For the siRNA transfection, a control blot for efficiency would be great to estimate the effect size. To me it is not clear where the endocytosed collagen and VPS33B eventually meet in the cells and whether they interact. Or is ITGA11 required to mediate this process, in case VPS33B is not reaching the lumen?

      This is an interesting question. We have conducted experiments with Col1-GFP11 containing conditioned media incubated with VPS33b-barrell in the revised paper, which showed that they interact within the cell and not at the cell periphery (revised Figure 6G, lines 293-296), again highlighting that VPS33b is not involved in the endocytosis step but interacts with endocytosed collagen-I intracellularly. We have attempted colocliasation studies using the split GFP approach with VPS33B and ITGA11 to investigate where they interact, but as the ITGA11 construct we used did not localise to the cell surface as expected, we are not confident that this system is appropriate for investigating how/if VPS33B interacts with ITGA11, and there are simply no good antibody for VPS33B for staining. 

      The authors show an upregulation of ITGA11 and VPS33B in IPF patients-derived fibroblasts, which can be correlated to an increased level of ColI uptake, however, it is not clear whether this increased uptake in those cells is due to the elevated levels of VPS33B and/or ITGA11.

      We would like to clarify here that we do not think collagen-I uptake is due to VPS33B and/or ITGA11, as siITGA11 and VPS33B in fibroblasts showed no consistent changes in uptake as determined by flow cytometry, which was included in the original manuscript (now revised Figure 6H, 7I). VPS33B and ITGA11 are involved in the ‘outward’ arm of recycled collagen-I, i.e. directing to fibrillogenesis route. We agree that the inclusion of additional functional studies using IPF patient-derived patient fibroblasts would add to the manuscript, and have performed siRNA against VPS33B and ITGA11 on IPF fibroblasts, and demonstrated a late of endocytic recycling events (revised Figure 8D, S6B, lines 351-353).  

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      Chang et al. investigated the mechanisms governing collagen fibrillogenesis, firstly demonstrating that cells within tail tendons are able to uptake exogenous collagen and use this to synthesize new collagen-1 fibrils. Using an endocytic inhibitor, the authors next showed that endocytosis was required for collagen fibrillogenesis and that this process occurs in a circadian rhythmic manner. Using knockdown and overexpression assays, it was then demonstrated that collagen fibril formation is controlled by vacuolar protein sorting 33b (VPS33b), and this VPS33b-dependent fibrillogenesis is mediated via Integrin alpha-11 (ITGA11). Finally, the authors demonstrated increased expression of VPS33b and ITGA11 at the gene level in fibroblasts from patients with idiopathic pulmonary fibrosis (IPF), and greater expression of these proteins in both lung samples from IPF patients and in chronic skin wounds, indicating that endocytic recycling is disrupted in fibrotic diseases. 

      Strengths: 

      The authors have performed a comprehensive functional analysis of the regulators of endocytic recycling of collagen, providing compelling evidence that VPS33b and ITGA11 are crucial regulators of this process. 

      Weaknesses: 

      Throughout the study, several different cell types have been used (immortalised tail tendon fibroblasts, NIHT3T cells, and HEK293T cells). In general, it is not clear which cells have been used for a particular experiment, and the rationale for using these different cell types is not explained. In addition, some experimental details are missing from the methods.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out the lack of clarity, and have filled in missing information in the methods. HEK293T cells were used for virus production for the VPSoe system, and we have clarified the cell types used in figure legends (predominantly iTTF). We have also provided justification when NIH3T3 cells were used (revised lines 290-291).    

      There is also a lack of functional studies in patient-derived IPF fibroblasts which means the link between endocytic recycling of collagen and the role of VPS33b and ITGA11 cannot be fully established.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment, which was also raised by reviewer 2 above. We agree that the inclusion of additional functional studies using IPF patient-derived patient fibroblasts would add to the manuscript and have performed siRNA against VPS33B and ITGA11 on IPF fibroblasts, and demonstrated a late of endocytic recycling events (revised Figure 8D, S6B, lines 351-353).  

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      The authors inhibit Clathrin-dependent endocytosis with dyngo4a. It is well known that this inhibitor is not highly specific for this pathway. It is also not explained why the authors only inhibit the Clathrin uptake pathway, and not pinocytosis or Clathrin-independent endocytosis too. The authors refer to papers that describe pinocytosis for collagen endocytosis.

      We thank the reviewer for raising this question. Based on the fact that inhibition of clathrin-dependent pathway does not completely abrogate endocytosis of collagen-I, we anticipate that other pathways are involved in mediating collagen-I uptake, although additional data suggested this is unlikely through fluid-phase endocytosis, and is receptor mediated (revised Figure S2B, C).  

      Where does the ColI go in the cell? Depending on the uptake pathway, it is likely to pass through endocytic carriers to endosomes, where it may be recycled to the PM or degraded. From the start, the authors describe the ColI as being in vesicular structures, however, the imaging data that this is based on is not co-labelled with anything to determine the potential structure/localisation. This is not done at any point in the paper, until IF is shown of ColI with VIPA39, however without the relevant controls, this IF is unconvincing, as the general pattern of ColI and VIPA39 as an endosomal marker are not classically recognisable. Additionally, VPS33B is described as a late endosome/lysosome marker, which would have different connotations on ColI trafficking or destination than other types of endosomes.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out the weaknesses in our original IF. We have included new confocal images showing labelled collagen co-localisation with GFP-tagged Rab5 through transient transfection, which is a more traditional endosome marker (revised Figure 1D, Figure S6A).  

      We are currently characterising the compartments to where ColI is trafficked to, which is being prepared as part of a methodology-based manuscript. We believe that this characterisation would be too detailed to be included in a revised version of this manuscript. The Kadler lab also have data suggesting that the lysosome is involved in collagen fibrillogenesis instead of its canonical degradation function, which is in another submitted manuscript (https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-1336021/v1). It was not included in this manuscript due to our focus (i.e. endocytic-recycling).   

      In Figure 5H, the pattern of Cy5-ColI staining looks like it could even be ER/Golgi in the VPSKO zoom panel, but in the absence of co-labelling, we cannot conclude anything. In order for the authors to conclude that ColI is within the endosomes, co-labelled If should be performed to demonstrate ColIendosomal colocalization. Likewise for the role of VPS33B in ColI fibrillogenesis: dependence of the process is demonstrated, but the relationship is not defined. This could be clarified using IF. This would also support the authors' statements of co-trafficking between ColI, VPS33B, and VIPA39, which as the paper stands, is not demonstrated.

      We would like to clarify that our hypothesis is that the endosome controls how collagen is being deposited outside the cell, i.e. whether it’s protomeric secretion or fibrillogenesis, and that the decision of whether an endocytosed collagen is recycled or degraded lies in this compartment. The reviewer is correct that it may not be just the endosome that endocytosed collagen-I ends up in, as we have new data suggesting involvement of other intracellular compartment, although the detailed mechanism is beyond the scope of this manuscript. Nonetheless, we have included new data showing co-localisation of endocytosed collagen with Rab5 in this revised manuscript (revised Figure 1D, Figure S6A).  

      The basis of this paper is that endocytosis of ColI must occur before re-exocytosis as fibrillar ColI. The authors show this through pulse-chase experiments, with a trypsinisation step to remove any externally bound ColI. The authors also show nice time progression by flow cytometry, but it would truly demonstrate this point if they showed 0 timepoint, or low timepoint of IF to show progressive lengthening of ColI fibrils. This is used early on in Figure 1D, although the presentation here is not very clear. This is especially important as the authors address the self-seeding capabilities of Collagen in cell-free conditions in Figure 1F.

      We would like to thank the reviewer for this suggestion.  From previous endogenously tagged collagen data, we know that the appearance of collagen fibrils is rather rapid, thus it may not be a gradual lengthening as expected, but rather a depletion of endocytosed collagen in the initial seeding/growth step (please see https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-1336021/v1). We have included an image of replated fibroblasts after 18 hours showing no appearance of extracellular collagen, endogenous or otherwise (revised Figures S2A, line 110).  

      Finally, although the involvement of ITGA11 is interesting, it is not well described, and its role is not well demonstrated. This could likely be clarified by an additional introduction to ITGA11 and its role in collagen exocytosis/fibrillogenesis.

      We would like to thank the reviewer for pointing this out and have included additional sentences to specifically introduce ITGA11 and its role in fibrillogenesis (see lines 320, 321; 446-450).  

      Specific points: 

      Line 73: You haven't compared reuse vs production, so you can't say that reuse is central rather than production. They may be both as important or production still may be the most crucial, maybe it depends on cell/collagen type. Using the ColI KD or CHX to block nascent synthesis, you could directly compare the impact of both.

      We would like to clarify that we are not referring to reuse/recycling here. We meant that production of collagen (i.e. single hetero/homotrimer molecules within the cell) is not as crucial as the utilisation (i.e. are these being secreted as protomers, or assembled into fibrils) of these building blocks by the cells, which was supported by our finding that production (as suggested by mRNA levels) of IPF fibroblasts are similar to that in control fibroblasts (now revised Figure 8A). We have conducted ColI siRNA to block nascent synthesis in the original manuscript and showed that fibroblasts can efficiently make new fibrils by recycling exogenous collagen (Figure 3B, C), although we appreciate that siRNA may not completely inhibit endogenous production. Thus, we have also included new data using collagen-I knockout cells to support our hypothesis that without endogenous production, fibroblasts can still effectively make collagen fibrils if they can reuse what is available in the extracellular space (revised Figure 4, Figure S3C, D; lines 178-199).  

      Lines 83-87: The rationale for this experiment is not clear. Cy3-ColI is added, taken up into cells, and incorporated into fibrils coming from cells. 5FAM-ColI is added at a later stage, then at 2 days (when incorporation is demonstrated in Fig 1B), it is also incorporated into cells as expected. Why does this comment on ColI not being degraded any more than Cy3-ColI alone?

      We believe that the pulse chase experiment using the differently tagged collagen demonstrated a dimension of dynamics that is not demonstrated with Cy3-ColI alone. In this case, Cy3-ColI was initially added, and removed after 3 days; 5FAM-ColI is then added and incubated for 2 more days. Thus after 5 days since the initial pulse, the Cy3-ColI persisted and was not degraded. We would like to apologise for causing this confusion, and have clarified in the revised manuscript (lines 542-549; Figure S1D figure legend).  

      Figure 1A: I would like to see a negative control: either dark colI or no Cy3-Col, or timescale. Is B quantified from these images?

      We thank the reviewer for this comment. We have added the nocollagen control image in our revision (revised Figure S1D). 1B is not quantified from the ex vivo tendon experiments, but rather the in vitro cell culture experiments (i.e. those from 1D-1F, although they are all from independent experiments).  

      Figure 1B: in iTTF cells (immortalised tendon cells) Corrected to max: What does that mean?

      As there are variations between individual experiments (e.g. changes in the amount of collagen added due to pipetting) we have normalised to the maximum value obtained in each individual experiments so that we can display all biological repeats within the same graph.  

      Figure 1C: You can't say ColI is in vesicular structures from this, they are spots, yes, but that could also be in Golgi/ER (unlikely to be cytosolic but not impossible).

      We appreciate this comment and have change the wording accordingly and call them intracellular/punctate structures.

      Figure 1D: Not the best presentation: The cell mask has structures: what are these? It's not clear if this is a single cell, would be better with a defined marker (endocytic marker, lysosome etc). Instead of a low-resolution 3D view, it would be clearer with normal confocal XY and zooms of "vesicular structures" using appropriate markers as 3D reconstructions I think it could be removed.

      This is a single cell and the cell mask is staining plasma membrane. We didn’t use defined marker as we wanted to visualise the whole intracellular cell compartment. We appreciate that further proof is needed to verify the location of the endocytosed collagen, and have included additional confocal imaging data to support the localisation of collagen into Rab5 positive intracellular compartments (revised Figure 1D, Figure S6B).  

      Figure 1 E/F: Cy3 is only visible in extracellular structure, not also intracellular. Why? Would be useful to see the time points of incorporation at the end of the pulse, then at an early point into the chase, to demonstrate 1) Cy3-ColI uptake into cells and progressive incorporation rather than potential direct binding of ColI-Cy3 to ECM, or other non-specific factors. Showing the image at 0t would demonstrate an absence of external labelled colI and therefore its appearance later could be presumed that it had been internalised before.

      As the cells were trypsinized and replated after one hour labelled collagen feeding to ensure we are only tracking endocytosed collagen, t=0 in this case would be cells that are unattached. We have included t=18hr images post replate instead to show baseline level of collagen (revised Figures S2A, line 110).

      Figure S1A: yellow box: doesn't show only Cy3-ColI, there is red and yellow in the central cell, and large yellow blobs in the cell above. These images do not support this claim, including the Fiber Zoom box. They should also be shown in single channels to demonstrate the authors' points better.

      Apologies for the confusion – this is to show that newly added FAM5 Collagen is also co-localising with previously endocytosed Cy3-ColI, i.e. the Cy3-ColI is persisting rather than being degraded.  

      Line 92: endocytosed into distinct structures: These images are very vague, but I don't think you can call them distinct structures, all you can say from this is that they are spots.

      We have changed the wording to ‘distinct puncta’.  

      It is not clear why the authors use Cy3, Cy5, and 5FAM labelled colI. A brief explanation would be useful.

      Apologies for the confusion, we initially included our justification (to show that the fluorescence labels do not change the way collagen is internalised) but removed it in the final manuscript due to length. We have added the justification (revised line 101-102).   

      Figure 1F: It would be useful to see a quantification of the Cy3 channel here: I agree with the conclusions, and find the 0.5 ug/ml condition more convincing than 0.1 actually, although there is some feint Cy3 in cell-free samples there seems to be quite a big increase in the presence of cells, and this would look more convincing if quantified.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion and have included quantification in the revised manuscript (revised Figure 1G-I).  

      Figure 2B: Dyng is not an abbreviation of Dyng. Standardise Dyng/Dyngo/Dyngo4a. WB is soluble colI and represents little (if any) insoluble col. IF is more or less the other way round. How do they compare this?

      Thank you for pointing out the inconsistencies, we have corrected this in the revised manuscript. We took the conditioned media from the same experiment where cells are fixed for IF and carried out Western blot analyses. The IF showed some collagen still present, albeit significantly reduced. This is in agreement with the western blot results (i.e. Dyng4a inhibits both soluble and insoluble forms of collagen deposition).  

      Figure 2C: not an image series. Quant: no cells/independent exps and STATS?

      Apologies for the missing experimental details in figure legends, it should say ‘representative of N=3 experiments’. We are not sure what the reviewer meant by Figure 2C not being an image series, as we meant it to be an image series of the individual fluorescence channels. We have changed this terminology to avoid confusion, and have included statistical analyses in the methods section. The statistical analyses of the fibril quantification is next to the fluorescence images.  

      Figures 2D/E: The authors show that internalised ColI peaks at 20h and decreases to 60h, Fibers peak at 40h. How is this measured? ECM removed? Why would there be less in the cells, degradation? Whats the synchronisation?

      We apologise for omitting the synchronisation method in methods section, and have included in our revised manuscript (revised lines 542-544). This is through dexamethasone addition (and removal after 1hr incubation) as standard. The internalised Col-I is measured using Cy3ColI so the cells would have both nascent and external collagen. Total intracellular collagen at the different time points would likely be higher than represented as a result, but here we are demonstrating that internalisation is a rhythmic event using the external labelled collagen. Fibers are measured using standard IF and then fibril counting.  

      Please note that we are only overlaying the two graphs to form our hypothesis that endocytosis may be used for accumulation of collagen protomers that then allows for efficient fibrillogenesis. They are not directly comparable as the quantification are of different things (internalised Cy3-ColI, total collagen fibrils). We have clarified this in our discussion (revised lines 399-401).  

      Discussion: Where does the ColI go? Solubilised? Degraded? Taken up by other cells? 

      The inverse correlation is not very tight. In fact, at 38h where fiber count peaks, Cy3-ColI also peaks (esp in normalised data, Figure S2D).

      We thank the reviewer for this comment and have reworded our main text to reflect this, and included additional discussion in our revised manuscript (revised lines 401-404).  

      Line 123: What is the turnover rate of Fibrils? Don't know for how long the transcription has been done, or when this would affect the fibril number. You have the quant for Fn1, where is the quant for ColI?

      We have included the quantification of collagen-I in original Figure 2A. We appreciate that it might cause confusion in Figure 2C (as we co-stained ColI and Fn1 in the same experiment) we have removed the collagen-I panel from the revised Figure 2C. We know from previous results that the number of fibrils fluctuate over 24hour period, although the turnover of one specific fibril is unlikely going to be 24 hours (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/331496v2)

      Line 124: no accumulation of col in extracellular space, but you don't know how much endogenous colI (or other endogenous ECM proteins) they're taking up as it isn't measured here. If the author wants to comment on this, should use either exogenous col to monitor take up and resection or block transcription/translation to show fibril formation endo/exocytosis independent of endogenous synthesis.

      This experiment has been done in the original manuscript – siCol1a1 experiment was done with two rounds of siRNA, first round is normal transfection followed by reverse transfection onto fresh coverslips (this will ensure no prior ECM is being deposited, see Figure 3). However we appreciate that there may still be low levels of endogenous collagen-I, and thus have included new data using collagen-I knock-out fibroblasts to strengthen our findings (revised Figure 4).  

      Line 142: Why is fibronectin synthesis also decreased in Col KD? This is clear in the image but no explanation/reference is given.

      Due to the dynamic and complex nature of ECM, it is unsurprising if there is a knockon effect when knocking down one matrix protein. However, we have quantified the amount of fibronectin fibril deposited by scr and siCol1a1 fibroblasts, and showed that there was in fact no significant change between the two treatments (revised Figure 3A).

      Figure 3A: Need labels for which colour/protein is shown. Needs quantifying, especially as the Fn1 decrease is not so obvious here, it is consistent between Figure 3A and 2C?

      We have provided quantification in the revision (revised Figure 3A). Figure 3A and 2C are two separate experiments (one is Dyngo treatment and one is siCol1a1), and neither showed significant changes in fibronectin fibril areas.   

      Figure 3B: Line 151: the text states that "The observation of fibrillar Cy3 signals in siCol1a1 cells showed that the cells can repurpose collagen into fibrils without the requirement for intrinsic collagen-I production (red arrow Figure 3B), however, there is clearly endogenous colI here too (along the fiber and also strongly at each end). Does the ColI antibody recognise the exogenous ColI?

      In our hands the ColI antibody does not recognise exogenous ColI, as the cell-free Cy3-ColI images were also stained with ColI antibody to ensure the two experimental conditions were treated exactly the same.

      This conclusion could only be made in the true absence of collagen: either in knock-out cells, or where collagen production/trafficking has been blocked (ie knockout of ColI chaperone or ERES block), or in a cell type that produces collagens but not ColI. Alternatively, if there are any fibrils seen that are completely negative, they should be shown in the figure and quantified (number of Cy3-ColI+-ColI+ vs Cy3-ColI+-ColI-).

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We have included new data from collagen knock-out fibroblasts in this revision (revised Figure 4).  

      Figure S4A: the quality of this blot isn't very high, the result is not very clear and the high intensity (unspecific?) band below confounds the interpretation. In the author's previous paper (NCB 2020) the blots for VPS33B were much clearer, as is Fig S4D. It would be nice to include a clearer blot, maybe from the other repeats.

      This is the only blot that we used to select which knockout clones to use for our previous paper, which is why the quality is not as high. Knockout clones were all verified with additional western blots, and we do not think that endogenous VPS33b is expressed at high levels (also verified by MS analyses).  Fig S4D is overexpression of VPS33b, which is much easier to detect.  

      Figure S4D: This blot is much clearer, it would be useful to include a high gain to show the VPS33B band in CT to be able to understand the true increase.

      From the qPCR data one can see that the increase at mRNA is 20+ fold increase; we’ve always had problems trying to detect endogenous VPS33b using western blot or mass spectrometry analysis.  

      Figure 4A: The fibrils here in the CT are not obvious, and the difference between CT and KOs is not appreciable. Would this be clearer shown at a lower magnification, with zooms where needed? Or immunogold labelling/CLEM to label the ColI?

      It is not trivial to carry out immunogold labelling/CLEM. These are cell-derived matrices in culture and thus lower magnification may not show as many collagen fibrils as one would expect. We are not confident that lower magnification will provide more information as the characteristic D-banded collagen pattern will be lost.  

      Line 167/Figure 4B: It looks like there is more internal ColI in KO, but the images are not good enough to tell. This could be better shown by flow cytometry.

      We have previously seen that VPSKO leads to accumulation of collagen-I in intracellular punctas (NCB2020) which is also seen here. Flow cytometry data for internalisation of external collagen is already included in original Figure 5G (revised Figure 6H).  

      Again you mention intercellular vesicles, but based on these images, it is not possible to conclude this. These large spots could be aggregation elsewhere in the cell. Specific localisation should be shown by co-labelled IF/confocal, or it could be nicely shown by EM + fluorescent element (CLEM / Immunogold), or these statements removed from the text.

      We appreciate that the term ‘vesicles’ is very defined in the trafficking field, and have changed it to ‘intracellular compartments’.  

      Line 173-174 / Figure 4E: Why do you think the matrix mass is not increased in VPSoe by the approach shown in E when there is seemingly a huge increase by IF? E must also measure other ECM matrix proteins, which do you expect to be secreted by these cells? Could this confound the data if they too are affected by VPSoe?

      IF is showing specifically collagen-I. Hydroxyproline detects multiple collagens, and shows a trend of increase (although not significant due to one outlier). Matrix mass is a very generic measurement of total ECM deposited based on decellularized ECM weight. The reviewer is correct that VPSoe may also affect other ECM deposition, however here we are focussing specifically with its effect on collagen-I. How VPSoe changes other types of ECM deposition would be something that could be addressed in future studies and is not within scope of this manuscript.   

      Are the results in E paired?

      Individual values between control and VPSoe in each separate experiments are paired.  

      Figure 4F: Is quantification from IF shown in D? Specify which kind of microscopy it is based on.

      Quantification is based on fibril counting using standard fluorescence microscopy, as used in our previous paper. D is independent of F, as F is specifically looking at synchronised circadian effects, and D (and elsewhere) we are looking at global collagen deposition effects, irrespective of what time of day the cells are in.  

      Figure S5F: What do the yellow/red spots in the blots represent?

      We apologise for the initial unclear description of what the yellow/magenta circles depict in relation to the phosphoimages of the radiolabelled cell free translation products displayed in Supplementary Figure 5, panels F, G and I. These circles indicate non-glycosylated (yellow) and N-glycosylated (magenta) species respectively, as is now clearly descried in the revised manuscript.

      Figure 5 title: You can't conclude this from these images, need confocal and PM or cytosolic marker.

      We have changed the title to ‘VPS33B co-trafficks with collagen-I”. There is no good commercial VPS33b antibody for immunofluorescence staining, which is why we used the split GFP approach in this paper, and the images were acquired using confocal imaging (Olympus SpinSR system).  

      Figure 5E: The authors describe that ColI is in endosomes throughout most of the paper, and this is based on the involvement of VPS33B in the colI pathway. VPS33B is thought to be at the late endosome/lysosome. However, these images do not look like classic endosomes or lysosomes, or other normal organelle IF phenotypes. The fluorescent intensity looks saturated, and it is difficult to conclude anything from these images. It is unclear where in the cell the largest blob in the zoom would be localised and in which cell. I would suggest that this image is replaced and proper controls included (IgG controls and single channels) as well as using different markers for other potential intracellular structures.

      We appreciate the reviewers comment with regards to the classification of VPS33b localisation in the endosome compartment. We did not mean to use VPS33b as an endosome marker, as the focus of our studies are the function of VPS33b in directing endogenous or exogenous collagen to fibrillogenesis. With live imaging we could see endocytosed collagen moving in intracellular compartments, and have conducted additional staining to show co-localisation with Rab5 (revised Figure 1), which we take to indicate, through convention, that it is occupying an endosome compartment. We have included single channel images in the revised manuscript (revised Figure 6E).

      Line 255/ Figure 5G: no consistent change in uptake. Why are the results so varied in the KO and oe, here and in Fig 4C/E? N=4, what does that mean? 4 cells? 4 independent exps?

      In all cases, “N” represents independent biological experiments in this manuscript. Thus “N=4” in this case is 4 independent biological experiments, with at least 10,000 cells analysed per experiment. 

      We don’t know why there is a variation in response, however that is also why we concluded that it is unlikely that VPS33B is directly involved with collagen uptake. We have changed 5G (now revised Figure 5H) to a paired line graph for better representation.  

      Figure 5H shows the uptake of Cy5ColI. At this resolution, VP2ko looks like the col is ER, in one of the cells in the zoom, it looks like it is at Golgi. I think that the uptake route of ColI needs to be better defined, as there is no way to tell here where the colI goes. ColI being recycled/degraded would be most likely. But this figure looks like that might not be the case. It is also not clear where the zooms come from, they should be indicated with dashed boxes in the lower mag image

      We thank the reviewer for this comment, and agree that we need to define the uptake route of ColI. This is currently being assembled as a methodology manuscript, and how ColI is being recycled/degraded is one major research area of the Chang lab. 

      We have added dashed boxes in the lower mag images to indicate where the zooms derived from, and we would also like to thank the reviewer for pointing this out as we realised we have accidentally cropped the image to a slightly different area for the VPSko image, and have now corrected this.  

      Line 257: Based on this data, it could be trafficking through the cell as well as into the extracellular space.

      We think that VPS33B is involved in trafficking collagen through the cell to plasma membrane but not secreted, as based on our split-GFP experiment we never observed extracellular GFP signal, which suggests VPS33b is not deposited extracellularly.

      Line 259: "highlighting the role in recycling col to fibril formation sites" is an overstatement based on the data shown here, there is no data on colI trafficking or its regulation

      We respectfully disagree that we have not shown data on col-I trafficking or regulation by VPS33b – split GFP highlighted cotrafficking to the plasma membrane, and we have shown a clear relationship between VPS33b and collagen-I fibril formation, with minimal changes to collagen-I mRNA levels. We acknowledge that we have not shown specifically the location of VPS33b at fibrillogenic sites and have modified this statement in revised manuscript (revised line 302).  

      Line 262: "Having identified VPS33B as specifically driving collagen-I fibril formation" is also an overstatement.

      We refer here the data that VPS33b is not controlling collagen-I secretion (as demonstrated by the CM westerns) and specifically fibrillogenesis. We have clarified this in the revised text (revised line 304).  

      Line 286: It would be useful to have a brief intro to PLOD3.

      We have included a brief intro to PLOD3 in the introduction, as well as the results highlighted by the reviewer, in our revised manuscript (revised line 54-58).  

      Line 289/290: There could be other explanations for disruption to exo-endocytosis when disrupting col trafficking. Is VPS33B controlling exocytosis in general? Why should it be specific to col? Likewise with siITGA11 KD? Hypothesis for ITGA11 and fibrillogenesis?

      The relationship between ITGA11 and collagen fibrillogenesis is currently in a manuscript by Donald Gullberg and Cedric Zeltz, under revision at Matrix Biology (see reference 63 in revised manuscript). We do not think that VPS33b is controlling exocytosis in general, which is supported by the minimal change in ponceau stain of the western blots in the manuscript. Previously it has been shown that VPS33B co-trafficks with PLOD3, a collagen-I modifier.  

      Figure 6I: Why only quant Scr + siITGA11, not in VPSoe? It looks like there is still an increase in intracellular or fibril formation in VPSoe + siITGA11, which would be a key result to discuss.

      We would like to clarify that 6I (now revised Figure 7I) is on the endocytosis of exogenous collagen-I, not quantification of Figure 6H.  

      Line 307: Discuss fibrillogenic sites, what are they?

      As we have not shown direct evidence of VPS33B delivering endocytosed collagen at the site of fibrillogenesis, we have decided to alter the text to avoid overstatement, as suggested from previous reviewers’ comments.  

      Figure 8: What does pentachrome label?

      Pentachrome staining allows for simultaneous staining of multiple species: collagen in red, sulphated mucopolysaccharides in violet, red blood cells in yellow, muscle in orange, nuclei in green.

      Line 326: "In this study we have identified the endosome as a major protagonist in..." This is an overstatement and cant be drawn from this data.

      We have modified this statement to “In this study we have identified an endocytic recycling mechanism for type I collagen fibrillogenesis that is under circadian regulation”

      Line 330/331: "Collagen-I co-traffics with VPS33B in a VIPAS-containing endosomal compartment that directs collagen-I to sites of fibril assembly," This is also an overstatement that cannot be drawn from this data.

      We have modified this statement to “Collagen-I co-traffics with VPS33B to the plasma membrane for fibrillogenesis”.  

      Line 340: again, the demonstration of the involvement of the endocytic pathway is very limited.

      We have provided new evidence in the revised manuscript that support the involvement of classical endosomal compartments.  

      Line 366: You cant conclude this, you have not manipulated these proteins to show a functional effect or modulation of fibrillogenesis, it could still be a secondary effect.

      We have provided new evidence in the revised manuscript that supports this conclusion. 

      Line 569: "Unless otherwise stated, incubation and washes were done at room temperature." Which incubations? Specify if this is just post-fixation during the EM prep or during cell culture.

      This is specific to the EM preparation and we have clarified in the revised manuscript (revised line 663).  

      Small text alterations:

      Overall we would like to thank the reviewer for highlighting these errors and mistakes in our manuscript, and have corrected them in our revised manuscript.  

      Figure 1E: Fluoro image series? This is only one image.

      We wrote this to mean single channel images, we have corrected the terminology.  

      Line 111: Ref for Dyngo4a?

      We have included this in the revised manuscript  

      Line 121: introduction/abbreviation definition for Fn1? Instead it is on Line 140.

      Thank you for highlighting this, we have corrected this in revised manuscript.  

      Figure S2C: Alignment of labels cleaves x-axis.

      We thank the reviewer for catching this and have corrected this with our revised manuscript.  

      Figure S4F and G should be inverted to mention sequentially in the text.

      We thank the reviewer for catching this and have corrected this in our revised manuscript.  

      Line 182: Figure 4J should be G.

      We thank the reviewer for catching this and have corrected this in our revised manuscript.

      Line 209: typo: N-glycosylated.

      We have corrected this typo in our revised manuscript.

      Fig 6E: Very big as a figure element compared to others.

      We have made this smaller in the revised manuscript to fit better with rest of the figure.  

      Line 313: Figure 7E not F.

      Thank you for spotting this, we have corrected it.  

      Line 555: Typo: Scraped.

      We have corrected this typo in our revised manuscript.

      Line 562: missing )

      We have corrected this typo in our revised manuscript.

      Standardise

      We thank the reviewer for spotting the mistakes below and have corrected in our revised manuscript.  

      Legends: Include numbers of repeats and STATs throughout. 

      Terminology: Dyng etc. 

      Scale bars: some included as editable lines, some with size on top, small/large etc.

      In certain cases we have positioned the scale bars in different regions of the figures to ensure no obscuring of the images.

      VPS33b v B. 

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):  

      The authors can improve the experimental part of the manuscript the following: 

      -  For all the western blots please include molecular weight markers.

      We thank the reviewer for noticing this omission and have included molecular weight markers in the revised manuscript.  

      - Performing immunofluorescence and western blot analysis of endocytosed collagen -/+ inhibitors for lysosomal degradation (BafA1 or E64d+PepstatinA) in order to exclude endocytosis for degradation.

      We thank the reviewer for this comment, another paper from the lab has identified lysosome to be involved in collagen fibrillogenesis (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2024.05.09.593302v1), thus  

      - Figure out how Dyngo4a is affecting Col1 secretion in the first place? Does it interfere with the secretory pathway. Alternatively, use a different model to block endocytosis (e.g. siRNA Dynamin).

      We thank the reviewer for raising this. The Dyngo CM blot for total ponceau stain (revised Figure 2B) showed minimal changes, which suggest that global secretion is not affected.  

      - Further characterization of the VPS33B / collagen vesicles by immunofluorescence containing markers for early, late, and recycling endosomes. Block endocytic recycling by depletion of either Rabs or e.g. EHD1.

      There are no good VPS33b antibody for staining. We have included images of GFP-tagged Rab5 co-localisation with labelled collagen-I (revised Figure 1D, Figure S6B).  

      - Further clarify the status of the VPS33B knockouts e.g. by sequencing. also provide a readout of the siRNA KD, besides the mRNA levels, since there the difference is not striking.

      The knockout cell lines were characterised previously in our 2020 paper, which is referred to in our revised manuscript. We have always had issues detecting endogenous VPS33b due to reagents limitations, which is why we resorted to mRNA as the key readout.  

      - Doing siRNA knockdowns and endocytosis inhibition in the IPF fibroblasts to further strengthen the link between elevated expression of VPS33B/ ITGA11 and increased collagen uptake.

      We thank the reviewer for suggesting these experiments. Due to limitations of the patient-derived fibroblasts (cell numbers and passage numbers) we had to prioritise experiments, and thus have performed siRNA against VPS33B and ITGA11 in the IPF fibroblasts. We showed that in both cases the amount of recycled labelled-collagen in collagen fibrils is significantly reduced (revised Figure 8D).  

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      Major points 

      (1) Choice of cells: Please provide a rationale for why each cell line was used, and make sure that it is clear throughout the manuscript which cell line was used for each particular experiment. The HEK293T cell line is also missing from the reagent table.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out this omission, and have clarified in our revised manuscript which cell lines were used in each experiment. We used HEK293T to generate lentiviruses as described in the methods section.  

      (2) Missing information from methods. Experimental details are missing from the methods in several places, making it difficult for someone to replicate an experiment. For example, no details are given in the methods describing the explant culture of murine tail tendons (described in results lines 78100), and there are no details on how the skin samples were obtained or stained. Further, no ethical approval details are provided for the use of human skin tissue.

      We apologise for leaving the ethical approval details and skin sample collection out, this was an oversight and will be included in the revised manuscript. We have also included the method to how murine tail tendons were cultured ex vivo (revised lines 527-531, 546-553).  

      (3) Functional studies in patient-derived cells. To fully establish the role of VPS33b and ITGA11 in fibrotic diseases, functional studies including the knockdown/overexpression of these genes could be performed to establish if the same response is seen as in non-diseased cells.

      We agree that this will add much to the paper, and have performed siRNA against VPS33B and ITGA11 in the IPF fibroblasts. We showed that in both cases the amount of recycled labelled-collagen in collagen fibrils is significantly reduced (revised Figure 8D).

      Minor Points

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out these mistakes, and have corrected and included additional details in the revised manuscript.  

      (1) Lines 51-52. Wording of this sentence is unclear, please rephrase. 

      (2) Line 182. Should this be Fig 4G rather than J? 

      (3) Line 209. Correct spelling of glycosylated. 

      (4) Line 463. Incomplete brackets and details missing? 

      (5) Line 590. Correct tense - was rather than are. 

      (6) Line 593. Specify centrifugation speed. 

      (7) Line 619. Nuclei rather than nucleus. 

      (8) Ln 650. Statistical analysis - was normality tested? 

      (9) Figure 1e - Difficult to read labels for coll/DAPI.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Joint Public review:

      Summary:

      This work provides a new general tool for predicting post-ERCP pancreatitis before the procedure depending on pancreatic calcification, female sex, intraductal papillary mucinous neoplasm, a native papilla of Vater, or the use of pancreatic duct procedures. Even though it is difficult for the endoscopist to predict before the procedure which case might have post-ERCP pancreatitis, this new model score can help with the maneuver and when the patient is at high risk of pancreatitis, sometimes can be deadly), so experienced endoscopists can do the procedure from the start. This paper provides a model for stratifying patients before the ERCP procedure into low, moderate, and high risk for pancreatitis. To be validated, this score should be done in many countries and on large numbers of patients. Risk factors can also be identified and added to the score to increase rank.

      Thank you for reviewing our manuscript. We hope that this score will be validated in other countries from now on.

      Strengths

      (1) One of the severe complications of endoscopic retrograde cholangiopancreatography procedure is pancreatitis, so investigators try all the time to find a score that can predict which patients will probably have pancreatitis after the procedure. Most scores depend on the intraprocedural maneuver. Some studies discuss the preprocedural score that can predict pancreatitis before the procure. This study discusses a new preprocedural score for post-ERCP pancreatitis.

      Thank you for evaluating our manuscript and raising a strength of this manuscript.

      (2) Depending on this score that identifies low, moderate, and high-risk patients for post-pancreatitis, so from the start, experienced and well-trained endoscopists can do the procedure or can refer patients to tertiary hospitals or use interventional radiology or endoscopic retrograde cholangiopancreatography.

      Thank you for evaluating our manuscript and raising a strength of this manuscript.

      (3) The number of patients in this study is sufficient to analyze data correctly.

      Thank you for evaluating our manuscript and raising a strength of this manuscript.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) It is a single-country, retrospective study.

      Thank you for this comment. It’s exactly as you said. This is a limitation (Lines 326-327).

      (2) Many cases were excluded, so the score cannot be applied to those patients.

      Thank you for this valuable comment. The predictive PEP score is not necessary for the excluded patients. The reasons were as follows. Biliary duct cannulation was not attempted in patients for whom it was difficult to identify the Vater papilla. The biliary tract was separated from the pancreas in patients with a past history of choledochojejunostomy, pancreatojejunostomy, or pancreatogastrostomy. PEP risk was thought to be low in these patients and patients who underwent bile duct cannulation via the choledochoduodenal fistula. PEP diagnosis is difficult in patients with acute pancreatitis, whose diagnosis is currently in progress. We added these explanations (Lines 98-106).

      (3) Many other studies, e.g., https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00464-021-08491-1, https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36344369/, that have been published before discussing the same issue, so what is the new with this score?

      Thank you for raising the new reference written by Archibugi et al. in 2023. The novelty of our score is that it is calculated using the factors that are investigated before ERCP procedures. The study written by Archibugi et al. involved procedure time and cannulation attempts for PEP prediction. These two factors are unknown before ERCP procedures. Therefore, a preprocedural predictive risk model for PEP was not created before our study was performed. We added the content of the past study written by Archibugi and included the report as a reference (Lines 65-67, 73-74).

      (4) The discussion section needs reformulation to express the study's aim and results.

      Thank you for this valuable comment. I have rewritten the first paragraph of the discussion. In the paragraph, we showed that the study achieved the aim on the basis of the results (Lines 245-255).

      (5) Why did the authors select these items in their scoring system and did not add more variables?

      Thank you for this valuable comment. We selected the items listed in the Japanese guidelines for acute pancreatitis and post-ERCP pancreatitis. We added this description (Lines 123-126). The original references of the guidelines were cited in the first draft version.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Comment1. Please revise these documents: copyright, disclaimer, ethics approval, consent to participate, consent for publication, data and material availability, competing interests, funding, authors' contributions, and acknowledgments.

      First, thank you for reviewing our manuscript. We have already described the required information in the “author information” section. The sentences containing this information were proofread in English.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Comment 1. It would be best if you did this study in a Prospective way for more validation.

      First, thank you for reviewing our manuscript. We have revised our manuscript according to your comments. It’s exactly as you said. These points are limitations (Lines 312-318, lines 326-327). We hope that future validation studies over wider geographic regions will prove our opinions.

      Comment 2. The model name should be Acronyum (the first letter of the five items in the risk model).

      Thank you for this valuable comment. Sorry, we could not create a memorable model name using the first letter of the five items.

      Comment 3. You say that you include the pre-procedure criteria that predict PEP. You state one of the items, pancreatic duct procedure. Do you mean it is a history?

      Thank you for this valuable comment. This means that the main purpose is the pancreatic duct. Therefore, the pancreatic duct procedure is listed as “planned pancreatic duct procedures” in Figure 2 (Lines 40-41, 231-234). When an unintended pancreatic duct procedure is performed, we can calculate the risk score by adding two points for “planned pancreatic duct procedures” (Lines 48-49, 247-250).

      Comment 4. Regarding calcification, do you mean chronic pancreatitis? It needs more clarification regarding its degree.

      Thank you for this valuable comment. We regard pancreatic calcification as a finding of chronic pancreatitis. Pancreatic calcification was defined as the degree that was confirmed by imaging, such as CT, MRI, and EUS. These definitions have been written in the first draft version (Lines 134-137).

      Comment 5. Why don't you include young age in the model? Your result found that age less than 50 is significantly associated with PEP.

      Thank you for this valuable comment. We selected the PEP risk factors listed in the Japanese guidelines for acute pancreatitis and post-ERCP pancreatitis. Age less than 50 years was listed as a PEP risk factor in the Japanese guidelines for acute pancreatitis. We added this description (Lines 123-126).

      Comment 6. There is an ancient reference, some of them in 1994,1996.

      Sorry for the old references. These references were written by Cotton et al. 1991, Freeman et al. 1996, and Loperfido et al. 1998. These are still important today. The diagnostic criteria for PEP were determined in the report written by Cotton et al., which is Cotton’s criteria. The other two references are representative reports that described risk factors for PEP, and these two reports were cited in the Japanese guidelines for pancreatitis written by Takada et al. 2022 (Lines 123-126).

      Comment 7. In the introduction, you say that the first score includes one of the items for PEP pain during the procedure. It is a little bit strange.

      Thank you for this comment. The first PEP risk score did not involve PEP pain but involved pain during the procedure (Line 68).

      Comment 8. We know that once ERCP is indicated, you justify the importance of the risk model, stating that if one or more risks are found, we can do EUS or PTD. It is not reasonable to abort the procedure in case of frequent pancreatic duct cannulation or cancel ERCP if pt has one or more risk factors.

      Thank you for this valuable comment. If ERCP is performed for high-risk patients, prophylaxes for PEP, such as procedures by experts, pancreatic stent placement, and NSAID suppository insertion, should be performed as much as possible (Lines 281-287, 308-311).

      Comment 9. Regarding ERCP pancreatitis criteria, does it include amylase 3t or lipase?

      Thank you for this comment. We used Cotton’s criteria for diagnosing PEP. Cotton’s criteria include hyperamylasemia (more than three times the normal upper limit) at least 24 hours after ERCP (114-116).

      Comment 10. It is well known that pr with functional biliary disorder has a high incidence of PEP; it doesn't need a manometer for diagnosis. It needs to be included.

      Thank you for this comment. Moreover, functional biliary disorders are difficult to diagnose before ERCP procedures (Lines 259-262). The factor that is not apparent before ERCP could not be included in the predictive PEP scoring system.

      Comment 11: What is gabexare and nafamost.

      Thank you for this comment, and sorry for our insufficient explanation. These compounds include gabexate masilate and nafamostat masilate, which are protease inhibitors. In some institutions, protease inhibitors are used as prophylaxis for PEP. We added “protease inhibitors” (Lines 138-139, Tables 1 and 2).

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Comment 1. The sample size needs clarification.

      First, thank you for reviewing our manuscript. The sample size has been included in the “Methods” section (Lines 157-165).

      Comment 2. They need to be mentioned cause they depend on old references in discussion and background.

      Thank you for this comment. The previous references were written by Cotton et al. 1991, Freeman et al. 1996, and Loperfido et al. 1998. These are still important today. The diagnostic criteria for PEP were determined in the report written by Cotton et al., which is Cotton’s criteria. The other two references are representative reports that described risk factors for PEP, and these two reports were cited in the Japanese guidelines for pancreatitis written by Takada et al. 2022 (Lines 122-126). In the background and discussion, we added new recent references and information related to the references (Lines 65-67, 285-287, 291-295, 308-311).

      Comment 3. Case definition should be added to the methodology.

      Thank you for this comment. We added patient information. Please refer to the response against the eLife assessment, weakness, (2).

      Comment 4. Do you include all who met the inclusion criteria, or was there any random sampling technique?

      No, we did not use random sampling techniques.

      Comment 5. What is the value of comparing the development and validation groups? I do not think it adds anything new as if you want to exclude confounders. Has the comparison revealed that a confounder does exist? What was your point of view concerning that?

      Thank you for this valuable comment, and sorry for the insufficient explanation. The differences between the development cohort and the validation cohort are important because the goodness of fit for the score could be confirmed in significantly different groups. We added this explanation (Lines 197-199, 251-253).

    1. Author response:

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary

      The authors determine the phylogenetic relation of the roughly two dozen wtf elements of 21 S. pombe isolates and show that none of them in the original S. pombe are essential for robust mitotic growth. It would be interesting to test their meiotic function by simply crossing each deletion mutant with the parent and analyzing spores for non-Mendelian inheritance. If this has been reported already, that information should be added to the manuscript. If not, I suggest the authors do these simple experiments and add this information.

      Thanks for the great summary! Most of the wtf genes have been tested for meiotic drive phenotypes previously by Bravo Nunez et al. (2020; http://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pgen.1008350). The reference was cited in our original manuscript, and we added the details in the revised manuscript.

      Strengths:

      The most interesting data (Figure 4) show that one recombinant (wtfC4) between wtf18 and wtf23 produces in mitotic growth a poison counteracted by its own antidote but not by the parental antidotes. Again, it would be interesting to test this recombinant in a more natural setting - meiosis between it and each of the parents.

      We will test the meiotic driver phenotype of the wtfC4 we constructed in S. pombe as suggested.

      Weaknesses:

      In the opinion of this reviewer, some minor rewriting is needed.

      We did the rewriting as this reviewer suggested in the comments to authors.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This important study provides a mechanism that can explain the rapid diversification of poison-antidote pairs (wtf genes) in fission yeast: recombination between existing genes.

      Thanks!

      Strengths:

      The authors analyzed the diversity of wtf in S. pombe strains, and found pervasive copy number variations. They further detected signals of recurrent recombination in wtf genes. To address whether recombination can generate novel wtf genes, the authors performed artificial recombination between existing wft genes, and showed that indeed a new wtf can be generated: the poison cannot be detoxified by the antidotes encoded by parental wtf genes but can be detoxified by own antidote.

      Thanks for the great summary!

      Weaknesses:

      The study can benefit from demonstrating that the novel poison-antidote constructed by the authors can serve as a meiotic driver.

      We will test the meiotic driver phenotype of the wtfC4 we constructed in S. pombe as suggested.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, Wang and colleagues explore factors contributing to the diversification of wtf meiotic drivers. wtf genes are autonomous, single-gene poison-antidote meiotic drivers that encode both a spore-killing poison (short isoform) and an antidote to the poison (long isoform) through alternative transcriptional initiation. There are dozens of wtf drivers present in the genomes of various yeast species, yet the evolutionary forces driving their diversification remain largely unknown. This manuscript is written in a straightforward and effective manner, and the analyses and experiments are easy to follow and interpret. While I find the research question interesting and the experiments persuasive, they do not provide any deeper mechanistic understanding of this gene family.

      Thanks! Please see the following for our point-to-point response.

      Strengths:

      (1) The authors present a comprehensive compendium and analysis of the evolutionary relationships among wtf genes across 21 strains of S. pombe.

      (2) The authors found that a synthetic chimeric wtf gene, combining exons 1-5 of wtf23 and exon 6 of wtf18, behaves like a meiotic driver that could only be rescued by the chimeric antidote but neither of the parental antidotes. This is a very interesting observation that could account for their inception and diversification.

      Thanks for the great summary!

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Deletion strains

      The authors separately deleted all 25 Wtf genes in the S. pombe ference strain. Next, the authors performed a spot assay to evaluate the effect of wtf gene knockout on the yeast growth. They report no difference to the WT and conclude that the wtf genes might be largely neutral to the fitness of their carriers in the asexual life cycle at least in normal growth conditions.

      The authors could have conducted additional quantitative growth assays in yeast, such as growth curves or competition assays, which would have allowed them to detect subtle fitness effects that cannot be quantified with a spot assay. Furthermore, the authors do not rule out simpler explanations, such as genetic redundancy. This could have been addressed by crossing mutants of closely related paralogs or editing multiple wtf genes in the same genetic background.

      Another concern is the lack of detailed information about the 25 knockout strains used in the study. There is no information provided on how these strains were generated or, more importantly, validated. Many of these wtf genes have close paralogs and are flanked by repetitive regions, which could complicate the generation of such deletion strains. As currently presented, these results would be difficult to replicate in other labs due to insufficient methodological details

      We will generate growth curves for all the 25 wtf deletion strains. We will also provide detailed for wtf gene knockout. However, for 25 wtf genes, there are too many combinations for editing two genes, and it is technically challenging to knock out multiple wtf together. Nevertheless, our results suggest single wtf gene has little effect on the host fitness under normal condition.  

      (2) Lack of controls

      The authors found that a synthetic chimeric wtf gene, constructed by combining exons 1-5 of wtf23 and exon 6 of wtf18, behaves as a meiotic driver that can be rescued only by its corresponding chimeric antidote, but not by either of the parental antidotes (Figure 4F). In contrast, three other chimeric wtf genes did not display this property (Figure 4C-E). No additional experiments were conducted to explain these differences, and basic control experiments, such as verifying the expression of the chimeric constructs, were not performed to rule out trivial explanations. This should be at the very least discussed. Also, it would have been better to test additional chimeras.

      We will verify the expression of the chimeric genes, and test the phenotype of meiotic diver for wtfC4 in S. pombe.

      (3) Statistical analyses

      In line 130 the authors state that: "Given complex phylogenetic mixing observed among wtf genes (Figure 1E), we tested whether recombination occurred. We detected signals of recombination in the 25 wtf genes of the S. pombe reference genome (p = 0) and in the wtf genes of the 21 S. pombe strains (p = 0) using pairwise homoplasy index (HPI) test. ". Reporting a p-value of 0 is not appropriate. Exact P-values should be reported.

      We will report the exact p values in the revised manuscript.

    1. Author response:

      We appreciate the reviewers' thoughtful and constructive comments. In this provisional response, we aim to address what we see as the key critiques, with a detailed, point-by-point reply to be provided alongside the revised manuscript. Below, we outline how we intend to address these critiques in the revised manuscript.

      (1) We will revise sections of the manuscript to ensure that all results, particularly those concerning the effects of lesions, are described more clearly and with sufficient context. This includes providing additional visualizations and rewording any ambiguous statements.

      (2) In this study, we examined a subset of 7,396 blocks where animals quickly adapted after block switches (achieving LCriterion in 20 or fewer trials), thereby focusing on expert-level performance and avoiding periods that might be affected by low motivation. It is valid to question whether the same observations would hold if the full dataset were analyzed. To address this, we expanded our analysis to include a supplementary figure Supplementary Figure 1.1 that illustrate the same relationships based on block length (BL) instead of LRandom, both with and without the restriction on LCriterion (n = 9,156 blocks in which the block length is under 100 trials, without any LCriterion restrictions), and based on LRandom without any LCriterion restrictions and with a less stringent LCriterion restriction (with ≤ 50 Trials for the criterion). This method allowed us to include all trials in our dataset. We observed similar effects of block length on choice behavior around switches (Figure 3), confirming the consistency of our findings across different analytical conditions.

      (3) We agree that robust validation of model selection is crucial. To address this, we will generate a confusion matrix to assess whether our model selection process accurately identifies the correct model class across a range of generative parameters. Include additional model selection metrics, such as cross-validation, to complement the BIC analysis and provide a more robust comparison of models.

      (4) We acknowledge the concern regarding our comparison of the "best" and the "4th best" models. The "4th best" model was chosen because it is the most widely recognized in the literature. Our intention was to demonstrate the performance of the most commonly used model, but we understand how this may have been misleading. To address this, we will revise our comparison to focus on the "best" and the "2nd best" models, ensuring greater clarity in the manuscript. Additionally, we will include supplementary simulation results and figures to provide a more comprehensive analysis on models.

    1. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study analyzes protein abundance data from six VAMP-seq experiments, comprising over 31,000 single amino acid substitutions, to understand how different amino acids contribute to maintaining cellular protein levels. The authors develop substitution matrices that capture the average effect of amino acid changes on protein abundance in different structural contexts (buried vs. exposed residues). Their key finding is that these simple structure-based matrices can predict mutational effects on abundance with accuracy comparable to more complex physics-based stability calculations (ΔΔG).

      Major strengths:

      (1) The analysis focuses on a single molecular phenotype (abundance) measured using the same experimental approach (VAMP-seq), avoiding confounding factors present when combining data from different phenotypes (e.g., mixing stability, activity, and fitness data) or different experimental methods.

      (2) The demonstration that simple structural features (particularly solvent accessibility) can capture a significant portion of mutational effects on abundance.

      (3) The practical utility of the matrices for analyzing protein interfaces and identifying functionally important surface residues.

      Major weaknesses:

      (1) The statistical rigor of the analysis could be improved. For example, when comparing exposed vs. buried classification of interface residues, or when assessing whether differences between prediction methods are significant.

      (2) The mechanistic connection between stability and abundance is assumed rather than explained or investigated. For instance, destabilizing mutations might decrease abundance through protein quality control, but other mechanisms like degron exposure could also be at play.

      (3) The similar performance of simple matrix-based and complex physics-based predictions calls for deeper analysis. A systematic comparison of where these approaches agree or differ could illuminate the relationship between stability and abundance. For instance, buried sites showing exposed-like behavior might indicate regions of structural plasticity, while the link between destabilization and degradation might involve partial unfolding exposing typically buried residues. The authors have all the necessary data for such analysis but don't fully exploit this opportunity.

      (4) The pooling of data across proteins to construct the matrices needs better justification, given the observed differences in score distributions between proteins (for example, PTEN's distribution is shifted towards high abundance scores while ASPA and PRKN show more binary distributions).

      (5) Some key methodological choices require better justification. For example, combining "to" and "from" mutation profiles for PCA despite their different behaviors, or using arbitrary thresholds (like 0.05) for residue classification.

      The authors largely achieve their primary aim of showing that simple structural features can predict abundance changes. However, their secondary goal of using the matrices to identify functionally important residues would benefit from more rigorous statistical validation. While the matrices provide a useful baseline for abundance prediction, the paper could offer deeper biological insights by investigating cases where simple structure-based predictions differ from physics-based stability calculations.

      This work provides a valuable resource for the protein science community in the form of easily applicable substitution matrices. The finding that such simple features can match more complex calculations is significant for the field. However, the work's impact would be enhanced by a deeper investigation of the mechanistic implications of the observed patterns, particularly in cases where abundance changes appear decoupled from stability effects.

    1. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, the authors report novel and exciting findings delineating a non-transcriptional mechanism whereby glucocorticoids desensitize CRH neurons to NE in response to somatic stress. The authors find that this desensitization induced by CORT 1. persists more than 18h, 2. reduces surface expression of AR1bR (NE receptors) by redirecting trafficking from rapid recycling to late endosomal pools and lysosomes, 3. is dependent on NE binding to the AR1bR, 4. involves cellular nitrosylation, 5. involves ubiquitination of beta-arrestin, and 5. involves interactions between glucocorticoid receptors and AR1bs, glucocorticoid receptors and ubiquitinated beta-arrestin, and AR1b and ubiquitinated beta-arrestin. While the authors do not directly provide evidence for a trimeric complex composed of these three proteins, their data that CORT causes translocation of these dimeric complexes to the cell nucleus suggests it is likely. Overall, these results are highly informative for understanding novel mechanisms mediating glucocorticoid regulation of GPCRs.

      Strengths:<br /> - Good rationale for each experiment, which describes many parts of the CORT-NE desensitization mechanism<br /> - Great discussion of limitations of the approaches and the parts of the mechanism we do not fully understand yet<br /> - Appropriate approaches for questions being answered<br /> - Describes a highly novel CORT mechanism that non-transcriptionally switches GPCR trafficking dynamics, something that could have far reaching implications for other GPCRs involved in stress responses

      Weaknesses:<br /> - Unclear how this mechanism would generalize to other stressor modalities. Restraint stress is a somatic stressor, but can also be considered a psychological stressor (model of depression-like behavior). A purely somatic stressor might increase the robustness of this phenomenon.<br /> - Remains unknown how nitrosylation plays into the mechanism in terms of specific proteins affected by CORT (GRK2, endophilin, clathrin possibilities)

    1. Sommaire Minuté des Temps Forts :

      Introduction (0:00 - 2:52)

      • Le vice-président du Conseil d’État ouvre la séance en soulignant le caractère novateur de cette présentation publique du rapport d’activité.
      • Il met en avant l’objectif de l'événement : rendre plus accessible et visible l’activité du Conseil d’État en 2023.
      • Il présente le déroulement de la rencontre, avec deux tables rondes dédiées aux grandes décisions/avis de l’année, et à l’office du juge.

      Présentation des Quatre Missions du Conseil d’État (2:52 - 11:17)

      • Le vice-président détaille les quatre missions du Conseil d’État :
        • Mission prospective (2:52 - 4:18): Le Conseil d'État peut de sa propre initiative alerter les pouvoirs publics sur des réformes nécessaires. Exemple : l'étude annuelle 2023 sur le dernier kilomètre des politiques publiques.
        • Mission consultative (4:18 - 6:22): Le Conseil d’État conseille le gouvernement sur des projets de lois, d'ordonnances et de décrets. Exemples d'avis importants rendus en 2023.
        • Mission juridictionnelle (6:22 - 8:05): Le juge administratif (tribunaux administratifs, cours administratives d'appel, Conseil d'État, etc.) contrôle la légalité des actes administratifs. Forte augmentation de l'activité contentieuse, notamment des référés.
        • Mission de gestion (8:05 - 11:17): Le Conseil d'État gère l’ensemble de la juridiction administrative. Amélioration des ressources numériques, accueil des justiciables, opérations immobilières, réponse aux événements exceptionnels, sécurité des juridictions, promotion de l'égalité.

      L'Étude Annuelle et ses Suites (11:17 - 12:02)

      • L'étude 2023 portait sur le dernier kilomètre des politiques publiques.
      • Le Conseil d’État a présenté ses conclusions et recommandations à divers acteurs (Défenseur des Droits, CESE, parlementaires, administrations, etc.).

      L’Activité Internationale du Conseil d’État (12:02 - 13:12)

      • Importance des échanges avec des partenaires étrangers, notamment via des séminaires bilatéraux (exemples : Suède, Allemagne, Pologne).
      • Ces échanges enrichissent le travail du Conseil d’État, notamment grâce à l'apport du droit comparé.

      Conclusion et Introduction de la Première Table Ronde (13:12 - 14:58)

      • Le vice-président conclut son propos en soulignant l'intensité de l’activité de la juridiction administrative.
      • Il met en avant la nouvelle obligation de serment pour les magistrats administratifs, symbole de leur engagement déontologique.
      • Il passe ensuite la parole à la présidente de la section des études, de la prospective et de la coopération pour introduire la première table ronde sur les grandes décisions et les grands avis de 2023.

      Première Table Ronde : Grandes Décisions et Grands Avis de 2023 (14:58 - 40:16)

      • Intervention du président de la section du contentieux (14:58 - 21:14):
        • Contentieux de l’environnement : décisions importantes sur la pollution de l'air, les émissions de gaz à effet de serre, et les pêches accidentelles de cétacés.
        • Libertés publiques : décisions sur la dissolution d’associations (dont "Les Soulèvements de la Terre") et sur l'interdiction du port de signes religieux.
        • Droit du travail : précisions sur les obligations en matière de risques psychosociaux dans les plans de sauvegarde de l'emploi.
        • Droit des contrats : précisions sur la prescription en matière d'ententes anticoncurrentielles.
      • Intervention de la présidente de la Cour Administrative d'Appel de Versailles (21:14 - 29:48):
        • Usage de la langue française : décisions rappelant le français comme langue unique de la République, censurant l'usage de langues régionales et l'écriture inclusive.
        • Environnement : décisions sur l'indemnisation des préjudices liés à la pollution atmosphérique, et sur le contrôle des "méga-bassines".
      • Intervention du président de la Cour Nationale du Droit d'Asile (29:48 - 35:58):
        • Conflits armés : application de la protection subsidiaire, notamment pour Haïti et l'Ukraine (violence d'intensité exceptionnelle). Première application du régime de protection pour refus de mobilisation pour crime de guerre.
        • Protection des personnes persécutées : extension de la protection aux personnes persécutées en raison de leur orientation sexuelle ou de genre.
        • Questions procédurales : traitement des demandes d'asile pour les familles, et irrecevabilité du recours en tierce opposition.
      • Intervention du président de la section des finances (35:58 - 40:16):
        • Exemple de l'avis sur le projet de loi constitutionnelle sur le droit à l'IVG:
          • Clarté de l'expression, lisibilité et niveau d'expression adapté à la norme constitutionnelle.
          • Cohérence du dispositif juridique et insertion constitutionnelle.
          • Analyse des conséquences de la disposition.
          • Prise en compte du droit international.
        • Rôle du Conseil d'État : apporter une sécurité juridique au gouvernement et clarifier le débat politique.

      Deuxième Table Ronde : L’Office du juge administratif (40:17 - 1:13:33)

      • Introduction par la présidente de la section des études, de la prospective et de la coopération (40:17 - 42:40):

        • L'office du juge administratif a été revisité en 2023 à travers des décisions de l'assemblée du contentieux, des groupes de travail, et le colloque annuel.
        • Actualité du sujet : critiques sur un juge administratif parfois perçu comme trop suiviste ou trop interventionniste.
      • Intervention de la présidente du Tribunal Administratif de Versailles (42:40 - 51:14):

        • Le juge des référés :
          • Forte augmentation du nombre de référés, expression d'une demande sociale réelle.
          • Exemple des référés "rendez-vous préfecture", illustration d'un rôle d'aiguillon de l'administration.
          • Exemple du référé liberté sur les conditions de détention à la prison de Bois-d'Arcy, démontrant la précision et le suivi des injonctions.
        • Le juge de l’urbanisme:
          • Difficulté de concilier l'objectif de juger rapidement avec la complexité des dossiers et la nécessité de la régularisation.
      • Intervention du président de l'Ordre des avocats au Conseil d'État et à la Cour de cassation (51:15 - 59:22):

        • Impact du pragmatisme accru du juge administratif sur la stratégie des avocats.
        • Exemples : hiérarchisation des moyens, recours pour excès de pouvoir dynamique, importance de l'injonction.
        • L'avocat doit s'adapter à l'évolution de l'office du juge pour maximiser l'effet concret de ses recours.
      • Intervention de la directrice des libertés publiques et des affaires juridiques au ministère de l'Intérieur (59:22 - 1:08:08):
        • Trois évolutions majeures pour l’administration : pragmatisme, pédagogie, réactivité.
        • Exemples de pragmatisme: jurisprudence Mirjan et Antony, balance des intérêts dans les référés précontractuels, importance de la sécurité juridique.
        • Exemples de pédagogie et de réactivité : décisions claires et rendues rapidement, adaptation aux situations d’urgence.
        • Bémol : le succès du référé liberté peut limiter le développement de la jurisprudence de fond.
      • Intervention d'un professeur de droit public à Sciences Po (1:08:08 - 1:11:16):
        • L'utilisation de l'expression "office du juge" est récente et s'est développée avec les nouveaux outils du juge administratif (injonctions, référés).
        • Trois tensions illustrées par la jurisprudence :
          • Égalité vs. Sécurité juridique
          • Positionnement du juge vis-à-vis de l'administration active et du pouvoir politique
          • Articulation entre les impératifs de légalité, d'efficacité de l'action administrative, et de protection des administrés.
      • Conclusion et remarques de la présidente de la section des études, de la prospective et de la coopération (1:11:16 - 1:13:33):
        • Précisions sur les limites de l'injonction et l'articulation avec la jurisprudence sur les politiques publiques.
        • Le juge administratif est de plus en plus un "juge de l'actualité" en raison du raccourcissement des délais de jugement.

      Questions de la Salle (1:13:34 - 1:19:02)

      • Suivi de l'exécution des injonctions : exemple de la prison de Bois-d'Arcy. Importance de la Délégation à l'exécution des décisions de justice.
      • Diffusion des travaux des groupes de travail sur l'office du juge.
      • Nouvelles innovations de la Cour nationale du droit d'asile, notamment en matière de protection pour refus de mobilisation pour crime de guerre.
    1. 主要超现实主义者

      这段文字以一种戏谑而富有哲理的方式,将不同历史人物和文学艺术形象贴上“超现实主义者”的标签。每一行都围绕这些人物在某一特定方面的行为或思想,进行了反讽或重新定义。以下是对每一行的详细解读:

      1. 斯威夫特在作恶方面是超现实主义者
      2. 斯威夫特(Jonathan Swift),英国讽刺文学大师,以其《格列佛游记》等作品揭示社会的荒诞和人性的丑恶。他的作品通过夸张和讽刺直指社会弊病,被认为是一种超越现实的批判艺术。

      3. 萨德侯爵在施虐淫荡方面是超现实主义者

      4. 萨德侯爵(Marquis de Sade)是法国作家,以极端的情色与施虐文学闻名。他的作品挑战道德规范和现实,极端表现欲望与人性,被赋予“超现实”的标签,凸显其超越常规的表现。

      5. 夏多布里昂在抒发异国情调方面是超现实主义者

      6. 夏多布里昂(François-René de Chateaubriand)是法国浪漫主义文学先驱,擅长描写异域风情与自然景观,充满浓烈的浪漫主义色彩,具有非现实的审美高度。

      7. 贡斯当在政治方面是超现实主义者

      8. 贡斯当(Benjamin Constant)是法国政治思想家,其思想强调个人自由,反对极权统治,这种理想主义的政治理念在现实中显得“超现实”。

      9. 雨果在脑子清醒时是超现实主义者

      10. 雨果(Victor Hugo),法国浪漫主义文学代表人物。他的思想有时极具社会批判性,尤其是在其清醒思考时,他对社会现实的洞察常常显得超脱世俗。

      11. 德博尔德-瓦尔蒙在爱情方面是超现实主义者

      12. 瓦尔蒙是《危险关系》中一个放纵爱情、操控情感的角色。他在情感上的游戏与扭曲,超越常理,具有超现实的特征。

      13. 贝特朗在过去的时代是超现实主义者

      14. 贝特朗(Louis Bertrand)是法国诗人,以梦幻与黑暗风格闻名。他对中世纪和过去时代的文学再现具有超现实的想象力。

      15. 拉博在死亡之中是超现实主义者

      16. 拉博(La Boétie)是法国人文主义者,讨论“自愿奴役”问题。他对死亡与人性自由的思考充满了超现实的深刻。

      17. 坡在冒险中是超现实主义者

      18. 埃德加·爱伦·坡(Edgar Allan Poe)是超现实主义的先驱,常描写冒险与恐怖的奇幻情节,突破现实框架。

      19. 波德莱尔在道德方面是超现实主义者

        • 波德莱尔(Charles Baudelaire)是现代诗歌之父,他在《恶之花》中挑战传统道德,表达出一种超越世俗伦理的美学思想。
      20. 兰波在生活实践中及其他方面是超现实主义者

        • 兰波(Arthur Rimbaud)是一位法国象征主义诗人,他放弃文学去流浪与探险,生活方式本身就是超现实的实践。
      21. 马拉美在吐露隐情时是超现实主义者

        • 马拉美(Stéphane Mallarmé)以晦涩的诗句表达深层次的情感,他的诗作具有超现实的象征与隐喻。
      22. 雅里在喝苦艾酒时是超现实主义者

        • 雅里(Alfred Jarry)是法国荒诞派戏剧家,苦艾酒象征着他超现实、非理性的创作状态。
      23. 努沃在行亲吻礼时是超现实主义者

        • 努沃(Germain Nouveau)是法国诗人,以其狂放的行为和对礼仪的反讽,成为超现实的象征。
      24. 圣-波尔·鲁在象征方面是超现实主义者

        • 圣-波尔·鲁(Saint-Pol-Roux)是象征主义代表作家,他的作品极富象征与幻想,具备超现实的美学风格。
      25. 法尔格在坏环境方面是超现实主义者

        • 这一句或指法尔格(Fargue)对困顿环境的描写,通过超现实的手法将丑陋环境美学化。
      26. 瓦谢在我心里是超现实主义者

        • 瓦谢(Jacques Vaché)是超现实主义的精神先驱,作者私心认为其是超现实主义的象征。
      27. 勒布迪在他家里是超现实主义者

        • 这句话可能意指日常家庭生活中潜藏的荒诞性或虚无,具有超现实色彩。
      28. 圣勃-佩斯从远距离看是超现实主义者

        • 从远距离观察,圣勃-佩斯的思想或形象更具超现实的抽象感,摆脱了现实的框架。

      这段文字整体以幽默的笔调赋予了这些历史人物和文学形象“超现实主义者”的头衔,实际上是在探讨他们在各自领域中超越现实的表现,既是讽刺也是赞誉。

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<nf-fields></nf-fields> <nf-cells></nf-cells> Gratitude is an affirmation of goodness, according to Dr. Robert Emmons. Photo by stockfour on Shutterstock Dr. Robert Emmons is known as the “world’s leading scientific expert on gratitude.” He is a psychology profession from the University of California, Davis and also the founding editor-in-chief of the Journal of Positive Psychology. Emmons has dedicated his life to better understanding what role gratitude and thankfulness play, not just in our lives, but in our mental and physical health as well.Featured VideosThe video player is currently playing an ad. You can skip the ad in 5 sec with a mouse or keyboard 1/100:243 powerful mind states: Flow state, good anxiety, and Zen Buddhism Skip Ad Continue watching3 powerful mind states: Flow state, good anxiety, and Zen Buddhismafter the adVisit Advertiser websiteGO TO PAGE.cnx-non-linear-ad-container .cnx-ad-bid-slot{position:absolute;top:0;left:0;grid-area:adslot;opacity:0;background:none;width:100%;height:100%}.cnx-non-linear-ad-container .cnx-ad-bid-slot.cnx-ad-bid-slot-selected{opacity:1;z-index:10}.cnx-non-linear-ad-container .cnx-ad-slot{display:flex;position:absolute;top:0;left:0;justify-content:center;align-items:center;width:100%;height:100%;overflow:hidden}.cnx-non-linear-ad-container .cnx-ad-slot video,.cnx-non-linear-ad-container video.cnx-ad-slot{background-color:unset}.cnx-ad-container .cnx-ad-bid-slot{position:absolute;top:0;left:0;grid-area:adslot;opacity:0;background:#f4f4f4;width:100%;height:100%}.cnx-ad-container .cnx-ad-bid-slot.cnx-ad-bid-slot-selected{opacity:1;z-index:10}.cnx-ad-container .cnx-ad-slot{display:flex;position:absolute;top:0;left:0;justify-content:center;align-items:center;width:100%;height:100%;overflow:hidden}.cnx-ad-container .cnx-ad-slot div{background-color:transparent !important}.cnx-ad-container .cnx-ad-slot iframe{box-sizing:border-box;border:3px solid #ffffff !important;color-scheme:none}.cnx-ad-container .cnx-ad-slot iframe:not([id]){border:none !important}.cnx-ad-container .cnx-ad-slot-video-type iframe{border:none !important}.cnx-ad-container .cnx-ad-slot video,.cnx-ad-container video.cnx-ad-slot{background-color:#f4f4f4} Many people are in need of motivation to practice gratitude for the good things in life, especially during a pandemic when stress-levels are at an all-time high.

      I feel like during the pandemic many people didn't have any motivation to do anything and it made many peoples life hard

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      "Neural noise", here operationalized as an imbalance between excitatory and inhibitory neural activity, has been posited as a core cause of developmental dyslexia, a prevalent learning disability that impacts reading accuracy and fluency. This study is the first to systematically evaluate the neural noise hypothesis of dyslexia. Neural noise was measured using neurophysiological (electroencephalography [EEG]) and neurochemical (magnetic resonance spectroscopy [MRS]) in adolescents and young adults with and without dyslexia. The authors did not find evidence of elevated neural noise in the dyslexia group from EEG or MRS measures, and Bayes factors generally informed against including the grouping factor in the models. Although the comparisons between groups with and without dyslexia did not support the neural noise hypothesis, a mediation model that quantified phonological processing and reading abilities continuously revealed that EEG beta power in the left superior temporal sulcus was positively associated with reading ability via phonological awareness. This finding lends support for analysis of associations between neural excitatory/inhibitory factors and reading ability along a continuum, rather than as with a case/control approach, and indicates the relevance of phonological awareness as an intermediate trait that may provide a more proximal link between neurobiology and reading ability. Further research is needed across developmental stages and over a broader set of brain regions to more comprehensively assess the neural noise hypothesis of dyslexia, and alternative neurobiological mechanisms of this disorder should be explored.

      Strengths:

      The inclusion of multiple methods of assessing neural noise (neurophysiological and neurochemical) is a major advantage of this paper. MRS at 7T confers an advantage of more accurately distinguishing and quantifying glutamate, which is a primary target of this study. In addition, the subject-specific functional localization of the MRS acquisition is an innovative approach. MRS acquisition and processing details are noted in the supplementary materials according to the experts' consensus-recommended checklist (https://doi.org/10.1002/nbm.4484). Commenting on the rigor, the EEG methods is beyond my expertise as a reviewer.

      Participants recruited for this study included those with a clinical diagnosis of dyslexia, which strengthens confidence in the accuracy of the diagnosis. The assessment of reading and language abilities during the study further confirms the persistently poorer performance of the dyslexia group compared to the control group.

      The correlational analysis and mediation analysis provide complementary information to the main case-control analyses, and the examination of associations between EEG and MRS measures of neural noise is novel and interesting.

      The authors follow good practice for open science, including data and code sharing. They also apply statistical rigor, using Bayes Factors to support conclusions of null evidence rather than relying only on non-significant findings. In the discussion, they acknowledge the limitations and generalizability of the evidence and provide directions for future research on this topic.

      Weaknesses:

      Though the methods employed in the paper are generally strong, there are certain aspects that are not clearly described in the Materials & Methods section, such as a description of the statistical analyses used for hypothesis testing.

      Thank you for pointing this out. A description of the statistical models used in the analyses of EEG biomarkers has been added to the Materials and Methods:

      “First, exponent and offset values were averaged across all electrodes and analyzed using a 2x2 repeated measures ANOVA with group (dyslexic, control) as a between-subjects factor and condition (resting state, language task) as a within-subjects factor. Age was included in the analyses as a covariate due to the correlation between variables. Next, exponent and offset values were averaged across electrodes corresponding to the left (F7, FT7, FC5) and right inferior frontal gyrus (F8, FT8, FC6), and to the left (T7, TP7, TP9) and right superior temporal sulcus (T8, TP8, TP10). The electrodes were selected based on the analyses outlined by Giacometti and colleagues (2014) and Scrivener and Reader (2022). For these analyses, a 2x2x2x2 repeated measures ANOVA with age as a covariate was conducted with group (dyslexic, control) as a between-subjects factor and condition (resting state, language task), hemisphere (left, right), and region (frontal, temporal) as within-subjects factors. Results for the alpha and beta bands were calculated for the same clusters of frontal and temporal electrodes and analyzed with a similar 2x2x2x2 repeated measures ANOVA; however, for these analyses, age was not included as a covariate due to a lack of significant correlations.”

      We also expanded the description of the statistical models used in the analyses of MRS biomarkers:

      “To analyze the metabolite results, separate univariate ANCOVAs were conducted for Glu, GABA+, Glu/GABA+ ratio and Glu/GABA+ imbalance measures with group (control, dyslexic) as a between-subjects factor and voxel gray matter volume (GMV) as a covariate. Additionally, for the Glu analysis, age was included as a covariate due to a correlation between variables. Both frequentist and Bayesian statistics were calculated. Glu/GABA+ imbalance measure was calculated as the square root of the absolute residual value of a linear relationship between Glu and GABA+ (McKeon et al., 2024).”

      With regard to metabolite quantification, it is unclear why the authors chose to analyze and report metabolite values in terms of creatine ratios rather than quantification based on a water reference given that the MRS acquisition appears to support using a water reference.

      We have decided to use the ratio of Glu and GABA to total creatine (tCr), as this is still a common practice in MRS studies at 7T (e.g., Nandi et al., 2022; Smith et al., 2021). This approach normalizes the signal, reducing the impact of intensity variations across different regions and tissue compositions. Additionally, total creatine concentration is considered relatively stable across different brain regions, which is particularly important in our study, where a functional localizer was used to establish the left STS region individually. Our decision was further influenced by previous studies on dyslexia (Del Tufo et al., 2018; Pugh et al., 2014) which have reported creatine ratios and included GM volume as a covariate in their models, thus providing comparability. It is now indicated in the Results:

      “For comparability with previous studies in dyslexia (Del Tufo et al., 2018; Pugh et al., 2014) we report Glu and GABA as a ratio to total creatine (tCr).”

      and in the Method sections:

      “Glu and GABA+ concentrations were expressed as a ratio to total-creatine (tCr; Creatine + Phosphocreatine) following previous MRS studies in dyslexia (Del Tufo et al., 2018; Pugh et al., 2014).

      We did not estimate absolute concentrations using water signals as a reference, as this would require accounting for water relaxation times, which may vary across our age range. Nevertheless, our dataset has been made publicly available for future researchers to calculate and compare absolute values.

      Del Tufo, S. N., Frost, S. J., Hoeft, F., Cutting, L. E., Molfese, P. J., Mason, G. F., Rothman, D. L., Fulbright, R. K., & Pugh, K. R. (2018). Neurochemistry Predicts Convergence of Written and Spoken Language: A Proton Magnetic Resonance Spectroscopy Study of Cross-Modal Language Integration. Frontiers in Psychology, 9, 1507. https://doi.org/10.3389/fpsyg.2018.01507

      Nandi, T., Puonti, O., Clarke, W. T., Nettekoven, C., Barron, H. C., Kolasinski, J., Hanayik, T., Hinson, E. L., Berrington, A., Bachtiar, V., Johnstone, A., Winkler, A. M., Thielscher, A., Johansen-Berg, H., & Stagg, C. J. (2022). tDCS induced GABA change is associated with the simulated electric field in M1, an effect mediated by grey matter volume in the MRS voxel. Brain Stimulation, 15(5), 1153–1162. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.brs.2022.07.049

      Pugh, K. R., Frost, S. J., Rothman, D. L., Hoeft, F., Del Tufo, S. N., Mason, G. F., Molfese, P. J., Mencl, W. E., Grigorenko, E. L., Landi, N., Preston, J. L., Jacobsen, L., Seidenberg, M. S., & Fulbright, R. K. (2014). Glutamate and choline levels predict individual differences in reading ability in emergent readers. Journal of Neuroscience, 34(11), 4082–4089. https://doi.org/10.1523/JNEUROSCI.3907-13.2014

      Smith, G. S., Oeltzschner, G., Gould, N. F., Leoutsakos, J. S., Nassery, N., Joo, J. H., Kraut, M. A., Edden, R. A. E., Barker, P. B., Wijtenburg, S. A., Rowland, L. M., & Workman, C. I. (2021). Neurotransmitters and Neurometabolites in Late-Life Depression: A Preliminary Magnetic Resonance Spectroscopy Study at 7T. Journal of Affective Disorders, 279, 417–425. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jad.2020.10.011

      GABA is typically quantified using J-editing sequences as lower field strengths (~3T), and there is some evidence that the GABA signal can be reliably measured at 7T without editing, however, the authors should discuss potential limitations, such as reliability of Glu and GABA measurements with short-TE semi-laser at 7T.

      In addition, MRS measurements of GABA are known to be influenced by macromolecules, and GABA is often denoted as GABA+ to indicate that other compounds contribute to the measured signal, especially at a short TE and in the absence of symmetric spectral editing.

      A general discussion of the strengths and limitations of unedited Glu and GABA quantification at 7T is warranted given the interest of this work to researchers who may not be experts in MRS.

      While we agree with the Reviewer that at 3T, it is recommended to use J-edited MRS to measure GABA (Mullins et al., 2014), the better spectral resolution at 7T allows for more reliable results for both metabolites using moderate echo-time, non-edited MRS (Finkelman et al., 2022). In this study, we used a short echo time (TE), which is optimal for Glu but not ideal for GABA, as it interferes with other signals. We are grateful to the Reviewer for suggesting the addition of a short paragraph to the Discussion, describing the practicalities of 3T and 7T MRS and changing the abbreviation to GABA+ to inform readers of possible macromolecule contamination:

      “We chose ultra-high-field MRS to improve data quality (Özütemiz et al., 2023), as the increased sensitivity and spectral resolution at 7T allows for better separation of overlapping metabolites compared to lower field strengths. Additionally, 7T provides a higher signal-to-noise ratio (SNR), improving the reliability of metabolite measurements and enabling the detection of small changes in Glu and GABA concentrations. Despite these theoretical advantages, several practical obstacles should be considered, such as susceptibility artifacts and inhomogeneities at higher field strengths that can impact data quality. Interestingly, actual methodological comparisons (Pradhan et al., 2015; Terpstra et al., 2016) show only a slight practical advantage of 7T single-voxel MRS compared to optimized 3T acquisition. For example, fitting quality yielded reduced estimates of variance in concentration of Glu in 7T (CRLB) and slightly improved reproducibility levels for Glu and GABA (at both fields below 5%). Choosing the appropriate MRS sequence involves a trade-off between the accuracy of Glu and GABA measurements, as different sequences are recommended for each metabolite. J-edited MRS is recommended for measuring GABA, particularly with 3T scanners (Mullins et al., 2014). However, at 7T, more reliable results can be obtained using moderate echo-time, non-edited MRS (Finkelman et al., 2022). We have opted for a short-echo-time sequence, which is optimal for measuring Glu. However, this approach results in macromolecule contamination of the GABA signal (referred to as GABA+).”

      Finkelman, T., Furman-Haran, E., Paz, R., & Tal, A. (2022). Quantifying the excitatory-inhibitory balance: A comparison of SemiLASER and MEGA-SemiLASER for simultaneously measuring GABA and glutamate at 7T. NeuroImage, 247, 118810. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.neuroimage.2021.118810

      Mullins, P. G., McGonigle, D. J., O'Gorman, R. L., Puts, N. A., Vidyasagar, R., Evans, C. J., Cardiff Symposium on MRS of GABA, & Edden, R. A. (2014). Current practice in the use of MEGA-PRESS spectroscopy for the detection of GABA. NeuroImage, 86, 43–52. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.neuroimage.2012.12.004

      Özütemiz, C., White, M., Elvendahl, W., Eryaman, Y., Marjańska, M., Metzger, G. J., Patriat, R., Kulesa, J., Harel, N., Watanabe, Y., Grant, A., Genovese, G., & Cayci, Z. (2023). Use of a Commercial 7-T MRI Scanner for Clinical Brain Imaging: Indications, Protocols, Challenges, and Solutions-A Single-Center Experience. AJR. American Journal of Roentgenology, 221(6), 788–804. https://doi.org/10.2214/AJR.23.29342

      Pradhan, S., Bonekamp, S., Gillen, J. S., Rowland, L. M., Wijtenburg, S. A., Edden, R. A., & Barker, P. B. (2015). Comparison of single voxel brain MRS AT 3T and 7T using 32-channel head coils. Magnetic Resonance Imaging, 33(8), 1013–1018. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.mri.2015.06.003

      Terpstra, M., Cheong, I., Lyu, T., Deelchand, D. K., Emir, U. E., Bednařík, P., Eberly, L. E., & Öz, G. (2016). Test-retest reproducibility of neurochemical profiles with short-echo, single-voxel MR spectroscopy at 3T and 7T. Magnetic Resonance in Medicine, 76(4), 1083–1091. https://doi.org/10.1002/mrm.26022

      Further, the single MRS voxel location is a limitation of the study as neurochemistry can vary regionally within individuals, and the putative excitatory/inhibitory imbalance in dyslexia may appear in regions outside the left temporal cortex (e.g., network-wide or in frontal regions involved in top-down executive processes). While the functional localization of the MRS voxel is a novelty and a potential advantage, it is unclear whether voxel placement based on left-lateralized reading-related neural activity may bias the experiment to be more sensitive to small, activity-related fluctuations in neurotransmitters in the CON group vs. the DYS group who may have developed an altered, compensatory reading strategy.

      We agree that including only one region of interest for the MRS measurements is a potential limitation of our study, and we have now added this information to the Discussion:

      “Moreover, since the MRS data was collected only from the left STS, it is plausible that other areas might be associated with differences in Glu or GABA concentrations in dyslexia.”

      However, differences in Glu and GABA concentrations in this region were directly predicted by the neural noise hypothesis of dyslexia. We acknowledge that this information was missing in the previous version of the manuscript. It is now included in the Results:

      “Moreover, the neural noise hypothesis of dyslexia identifies perisylvian areas as being affected by increased glutamatergic signaling, and directly predicts associations between Glu and GABA levels in the superior temporal regions and phonological skills (Hancock et al., 2017).”

      as well as in the Discussion:

      “Nevertheless, the neural noise hypothesis predicted increased glutamatergic signaling in perisylvian regions, specifically in the left superior temporal cortex (Hancock et al., 2017).”

      Figure 1 contains a lot of information, and it may be helpful to split it into 2 figures (EEG vs. MRS) so that the plots could be made larger and the reader could more easily digest the information.

      (a) I would also recommend displaying separate metabolite fit plots for each group, since the current presentation in panel F makes it appear that the MRS data is examined by testing differences between groups across the full spectrum (where the lines diverge), which really isn't the case.

      (b) The GABA peak is not visible in the spectrum, and Glutamate and GABA both have multiple peaks that should be shown on the spectrum. This may be best achieved by displaying the individual metabolite sub-spectra below the full spectrum

      Thank you for these suggestions. We have split the information into two Figures following the Reviewer’s recommendations.

      It is not clear why the 3T structural images were used for segmentation and calculation of tissue fraction if 7T structural images were also acquired (which would presumably have higher resolution).

      Generally, T1-weighted images from the 7T scanner exhibit more artifacts than those from the 3T scanner due to higher magnetic field inhomogeneity. These artifacts are especially pronounced in regions near air-tissue interfaces, such as the temporal lobes. Therefore, we chose the 3T structural images for segmentation and tissue fraction calculations and clarified this in the Method section:

      “Voxel segmentation was performed on structural images from a 3T scanner, coregistered to 7T structural images in SPM12, as the latter exhibited excessive artifacts and intensity bias in the temporal regions”.

      The basis set includes a large number of metabolites (27), including many low-concentration metabolites/compounds (e.g., bHG, bHB, Citrate, Threonine, ethanol) that are typically only included in studies targeting specific metabolites in disease/pathology. Please justify the inclusion of this maximal set of metabolites in the basis set, given that the inclusion of overlapping low-concentration metabolites may influence metabolite measurements of interest (https://doi.org/10.1002/mrm.10246).

      There is still no consensus in the MR community on which metabolites should be included in the model of human cerebral 1H-MR spectra. Typically, only major contributors such as NAA, Cr, Cho, Lac, mI, and possibly Glx are evaluated. Some studies also include additional metabolites like Ace, Ala, Asp, GABA, Glc, Gly, sI, NAAG, and Tau. In this study, as in a few others, further metabolites such as PCh, GPC, PCr, GSH, PE, and Thr were introduced and this approach seems suitable for high-field spectra (Hofmann et al., 2002).

      Hofmann, L., Slotboom, J., Jung, B., Maloca, P., Boesch, C., & Kreis, R. (2002). Quantitative 1H-magnetic resonance spectroscopy of human brain: Influence of composition and parameterization of the basis set in linear combination model-fitting. Magnetic Resonance in Medicine, 48(3), 440–453. https://doi.org/10.1002/mrm.10246

      Please provide a figure indicating the localization of the MRS voxel for a sample subject.

      A figure indicating the localization of the MRS voxel for a sample subject was added to the MRS checklist.

      It would be helpful to include Table S1 in the main article.

      Table S1 from the Supplementary Material has now been added to the main manuscript as Table 1 in the Results section.

      Please report descriptive statistics for EEG and MRS measures in Table S1.

      We have added a new Table S1 in the Supplementary Material, providing descriptive statistics for EEG and MRS E/I balance measures, presented separately for the dyslexic and control groups.

      I recommend avoiding using the terms "direct" and "indirect" to contrast MRS and EEG measures of E/I balance. Both of these measures are imperfect and it is misleading to say that MRS is a "direct" measure of neurotransmitters. There is also ambiguity in what is meant by "direct": in contrast to EEG, MRS does not measure neural activity and does not provide high-resolution temporal information, so in a sense, it is less direct.

      Thank you for this suggestion. We have replaced the terms 'direct' and 'indirect' biomarkers with 'MRS' and 'EEG' biomarkers throughout the text.

      There are many cases throughout the results in which Bayes and frequentist stats seem to contradict each other in terms of significance and what should be included in the models, especially with regard to the interaction effects (the Bayes factors appear to favor non-significant interactions). I think this is worth considering and describing to offer more clarity for the readers.

      We agree that a discussion of the divergent results between Bayesian and frequentist models was missing in the previous version of the manuscript. To provide greater clarity for the readers, we have conducted follow-up Bayesian t-tests in every case where the results indicated the inclusion of non-significant interactions with the effect of group in the model. These additional analyses have been performed for the exponent, offset, as well as for beta bandwidth in the Supplementary Material. We have also added a paragraph addressing these discrepancies in the Discussion:

      “Remarkably, in some models, results from Bayesian and frequentist statistics yielded divergent conclusions regarding the inclusion of non-significant effects. This was observed in more complex ANOVA models, whereas no such discrepancies appeared in t-tests or correlations. Given reports of high variability in Bayesian ANOVA estimates across repeated runs of the same analysis (Pfister, 2021), these results should be interpreted with caution. Therefore, following the recommendation to simplify complex models into Bayesian t-tests for more reliable estimates (Pfister, 2021), we conducted follow-up Bayesian t-tests in every case that favored the inclusion of non-significant interactions with the group factor. These analyses provided further evidence for the lack of differences between the dyslexic and control groups. Another source of discrepancy between the two methods may stem from the inclusion of interactions between covariates and within-subject effects in frequentist ANOVA, which were not included in Bayesian ANOVA to adhere to the recommendation for simpler Bayesian models (Pfister, 2021).”

      Pfister, R. (2021). Variability of Bayes factor estimates in Bayesian analysis of variance. The Quantitative Methods for Psychology, 17(1), 40-45. doi:10.20982/tqmp.17.1.p040

      It would be helpful to indicate whether participants in the DYS group had a history of reading intervention/remediation. In addition to showing that the DYS group performed lower than the CON group on reading assessments as a whole and given their age, was the performance on the reading assessments at an individual level considered for inclusion in the study? (i.e., were participants' persistent poor reading abilities confirmed with the research assessments?)

      We were unable to assess individual reading skills due to the lack of standardized diagnostic norms for adult dyslexia in Poland. Therefore, participants in the dyslexic group were recruited based on a previous clinical diagnosis of dyslexia, and reading and reading-related tasks were used for group-level comparisons only. This information has been added to the Methods section:

      “Since there are no standardized diagnostic norms for dyslexia in adults in Poland, individuals were assigned to the dyslexic group based on a past diagnosis of dyslexia.”

      Unfortunately, we did not collect information about participants' history of reading intervention or remediation. In this context, we acknowledge that including a sample of adult participants is a potential limitation of our study, however, this was already mentioned in the Discussion.

      Regarding the fMRI task, please indicate whether the participants whose threshold and/or contrast was changed for localization were from the DYS or CON group.

      This information is now added to the Method section:

      “For 6 participants (DYS n = 2, CON n = 4), the threshold was lowered to p < .05 uncorrected, while for another 6 participants (DYS n = 3, CON n = 3) the contrast from the auditory run was changed to auditory words versus fixation cross due to a lack of activation for other contrasts.”

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This study utilized two complementary techniques (EEG and 7T MRI/MRS) to directly test a theory of dyslexia: the neural noise hypothesis. The authors report finding no evidence to support an excitatory/inhibitory balance, as quantified by beta in EEG and Glutamate/GABA ratio in MRS. This is important work and speaks to one potential mechanism by which increased neural noise may occur in dyslexia.

      Strengths:

      This is a well-conceived study with in-depth analyses and publicly available data for independent review. The authors provide transparency with their statistics and display the raw data points along with the averages in figures for review and interpretation. The data suggest that an E/I balance issue may not underlie deficits in dyslexia and is a meaningful and needed test of a possible mechanism for increased neural noise.

      Weaknesses:

      The researchers did not include a visual print task in the EEG task, which limits analysis of reading-specific regions such as the visual word form area, which is a commonly hypoactivated region in dyslexia. This region is a common one of interest in dyslexia, yet the researchers measured the I/E balance in only one region of interest, specific to the language network.

      We agree with the Reviewer that including different tasks for the EEG biomarkers assessment would be valuable. However, this limitation was already addressed in the Discussion:

      “Importantly, our study focused on adolescents and young adults, and the EEG recordings were conducted during rest and a spoken language task. These factors may limit the generalizability of our results. Future research should include younger populations and incorporate a broader array of tasks, such as reading and phonological processing, to provide a more comprehensive evaluation of the E/I balance hypothesis.”

      Further, this work does not consider prior studies reporting neural inconsistency; a potential consequence of increased neural noise, which has been reported in several studies and linked with candidate-dyslexia gene variants (e.g., Centanni et al., 2018, 2022; Hornickel & Kraus, 2013; Neef et al., 2017). While E/I imbalance may not be a cause of increased neural noise, other potential mechanisms remain and should be discussed.

      Thank you for referring us to other works reporting neural variability in dyslexia. We agree that a broader context regarding sources of reduced neural synchronization, beyond E/I imbalance, was missing in the previous version of the manuscript. We have now included these references in the Discussion:

      “Furthermore, although our results do not support the idea of E/I balance alterations as a source of neural noise in dyslexia, they do not preclude other mechanisms leading to less synchronous neural firing posited by the hypothesis. In this context, there is evidence showing increased trial-to-trial inconsistency of neural responses in individuals with dyslexia (Centanni et al., 2022) or poor readers (Hornickel and Kraus, 2013) and its associations with specific dyslexia risk genes (Centanni et al., 2018; Neef et al., 2017). At the same time, the observed trial-to-trial inconsistency was either present only in a subset of participants (Centanni et al., 2018), limited to some experimental conditions (Centanni et al., 2022), or specific brain regions – e.g., brainstem in Hornickel and Kraus (2013), left auditory cortex in Centanni et al. (2018), or left supramarginal gyrus in Centanni et al. (2022).”

      A better description of the exponent and offset components is needed at the beginning of the results, given that the methods are presented in detail at the end. I also do not see a clear description of these components in the methods.

      A description of the aperiodic components is now included in the Results:

      “In the initial step of the analysis, we analyzed the aperiodic (exponent and offset) components of the EEG spectrum. The exponent reflects the steepness of the EEG power spectrum, with a higher exponent indicating a steeper signal; while the offset represents a uniform shift in power across frequencies, with a higher offset indicating greater power across the entire EEG spectrum (Donoghue et al., 2020).”

      as well as in the Materials and Methods:

      “Two broadband aperiodic parameters were extracted: the exponent, which quantifies the steepness of the EEG power spectrum, and the offset, which indicates signal’s power across the entire frequency spectrum.”

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This study by Glica and colleagues utilized EEG (i.e., Beta power, Gamma power, and aperiodic activity) and 7T MRS (i.e., MRS IE ratio, IE balance) to reevaluate the neural noise hypothesis in Dyslexia. Supported by Bayesian statistics, their results show solid 'no evidence' of EI balance differences between groups, challenging the neural noise hypothesis. The work will be of broad interest to neuroscientists, and educational and clinical psychologists.

      Strengths:

      Combining EEG and 7T MRS, this study utilized both the indirect (i.e., Beta power, Gamma power, and aperiodic activity) and direct (i.e., MRS IE ratio, IE balance) measures to reevaluate the neural noise hypothesis in Dyslexia.

      Weaknesses:

      The authors may need to provide more data to assess the quality of the MRS data.

      We have addressed the following specific recommendations of the Reviewer providing more data about the quality of the MRS data.

      The authors may need to explain how the number of subjects is determined in the MRS section.

      We have clarified the MRS sample description in the Results section:

      “Due to financial and logistical constraints, 59 out of the 120 recruited subjects, selected progressively as the study unfolded, were examined with MRS. Subjects were matched by age and sex between the dyslexic and control groups. Due to technical issues and to prevent delays and discomfort for the participants, we collected 54 complete sessions. Additionally, four datasets were excluded based on our quality control criteria, and three GABA+ estimates exceeded the selected CRLB threshold. Ultimately, we report 50 estimates for Glu (21 participants with dyslexia) and 47 for GABA+ and Glu/GABA+ ratios (20 participants with dyslexia).”

      Is there a reason why theta and gamma peaks were not observed in the majority of participants? What are the possible reasons that likely caused the discrepancy between this study and previously reported relevant studies?

      We have now added a discussion about the absence of oscillatory peaks in the theta and gamma bands to the Discussion section:

      “We could not perform analyses for the gamma oscillations since in the majority of participants the gamma peak was not detected above the aperiodic component. Due to the 1/f properties of the EEG spectrum, both aperiodic and periodic components should be disentangled to analyze ‘true’ gamma oscillations; however, this approach is not typically recognized in electrophysiology research (Hudson and Jones, 2022). Indeed, previous studies that analyzed gamma activity in dyslexia (Babiloni et al., 2012; Lasnick et al., 2023; Rufener and Zaehle, 2021) did not separate the background aperiodic activity. For the same reason, we could not analyze results for the theta band, which often does not meet the criteria for an oscillatory component manifested as a peak in the power spectrum (Klimesch, 1999). Moreover, results from a study investigating developmental changes in both periodic and aperiodic components suggest that theta oscillations in older participants are mostly observed in frontal midline electrodes (Cellier et al., 2021), which were not analyzed in the current study.”

      Hudson, M. R., & Jones, N. C. (2022). Deciphering the code: Identifying true gamma neural oscillations. Experimental Neurology357, 114205. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.expneurol.2022.114205

      Klimesch, W. (1999). EEG alpha and theta oscillations reflect cognitive and memory performance: A review and analysis. Brain Research Reviews29(2-3), 169-195. https://doi.org/10.1016/S0165-0173(98)00056-3

      Based on Figure 1F, the quality of the MRS data may be contaminated by the lipid signal, especially for the DYS group. To better evaluate the MRS data, especially the GABA measurements, the authors need to show:

      (a) the placement of the MRS voxel on the anatomical images;

      Averaged MRS voxel placement was already presented in Figure 1 (now Figure 2) in the manuscript. Now, we have also added exemplary single-subject images to the MRS checklist in the Supplement.

      (b) Glu and GABA model functions

      We have now provided more meaningful Glu and GABA indications in Figure 2.

      (c) CRLB for GABA

      We have added respective estimates to the Supplement:

      %CRLB of Glu: mean 2.96, SD = 0.79

      %CRLB of GABA: mean 10.59, SD = 2.76

      %CRLB of NAA: 1.76 SD = 0.46

      Further, the authors added voxel's gray matter volume as a covariate when performing separate ANCOVAs. The authors may need to use alpha correction or 1-fCSF correction to corroborate these results.

      We chose to use the ratio of Glu and GABA to total creatine (tCr), as this remains a common practice in MRS studies at 7T (e.g., Nandi et al., 2022; Smith et al., 2021). This decision was also influenced by previous dyslexia studies (Del Tufo et al., 2018; Pugh et al., 2014) and is now clarified in the Results and Methods sections.

      Regarding alpha correction, a recent paper (García-Pérez et al., 2023) recommends: 'In general, avoid corrections for multiple testing if statistical claims are to be made for each individual test, in the absence of an omnibus null hypothesis.' Since we report null findings, further alpha correction would not significantly impact the results.

      García-Pérez, M. A. (2023). Use and misuse of corrections for multiple testing. Methods in Psychology8, 100120. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.metip.2023.100120

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review): 

      Though the Norrin protein is structurally unrelated to the Wnt ligands, it can activate the Wnt/βcatenin pathway by binding to the canonical Wnt receptors Fzd4 and Lrp5/6, as well as the tetraspanin Tspan12 co-receptor. Understanding the biochemical mechanisms by which Norrin engages Tspan12 to initiate signaling is important, as this pathway plays an important role in regulating retinal angiogenesis and maintaining the blood-retina-barrier. Numerous mutations in this signaling pathway have also been found in human patients with ocular diseases. The overarching goal of the study is to define the biochemical mechanisms by which Tspan12 mediates Norrin signaling. Using purified Tspan12 reconstituted in lipid nanodiscs, the authors conducted detailed binding experiments to document the direct, high-affinity interactions between purified Tspan12 and Norrin. To further model this binding event, they used AlphaFold to dock Norrin and Tspan12 and identified four putative binding sites. They went on to validate these sites through mutagenesis experiments. Using the information obtained from the AlphaFold modeling and through additional binding competition experiments, it was further demonstrated that Tspan12 and Fzd4 can bind Norrin simultaneously, but Tspan12 binding to Norrin is competitive with other known co-receptors, such as HSPGs and Lrp5/6. Collectively, the authors proposed that the main function of Tspan12 is to capture low concentrations of Norrin at the early stage of signaling, and then "hand over" Norrin to Fzd4 and Lrp5/6 for further signal propagation. Overall, the study is comprehensive and compelling, and the conclusions are well supported by the experimental and modeling data. 

      Strengths: 

      • Biochemical reconstitution of Tspan12 and Fzd4 in lipid nanodiscs is an elegant approach for testing the direct binding interaction between Norrin and its co-receptors. The proteins used for the study seem to be of high purity and quality. 

      • The various binding experiments presented throughout the study were carried out rigorously. In particular, BLI allows accurate measurement of equilibrium binding constants as well as on and off rates. 

      • It is nice to see that the authors followed up on their AlphaFold modeling with an extensive series of mutagenesis studies to experimentally validate the potential binding sites. This adds credence to the AlphaFold models. 

      • Table S1 is a further testament to the rigor of the study. 

      • Overall, the study is comprehensive and compelling, and the conclusions are well supported by the experimental and modeling data. 

      Suggestions for improvement: 

      • It would be helpful to show Coomassie-stained gels of the key mutant Norrin and Tspan12 proteins presented in Figures 2E and 2F. 

      We have included Stain-Free SDS-PAGE gels from the purification of the Norrin and Tspan12 mutants in a new Figure S4.

      • Many Norrin and Tspan12 mutations have been identified in human patients with FEVR. It would be interesting to comment on whether any of the mutations might affect the NorrinTspan12 binding sites described in this study. 

      Thank you for this suggestion. We have inspected human mutation databases gnomAD, ClinVar, and HGMD for known mutations in the predicted Tspan12-Norrin binding interface and their occurrence in human patients with FEVR or Norrie disease.

      While a number of Tspan12 residues that we predict to interact with Norrin are impacted by rare mutations in humans (e.g., L169M, E170V, E173K, D175N, E196G, S199C, as found in the gnomAD database), these alleles are of unknown clinical significance (as found in ClinVar or HGMD databases). It is possible that mutations that slightly weaken the Norrin-Tspan12 interface may not produce a strong phenotype, especially given the avidity we expect from this system. By our examination, the missense variants of clinical significance that have been found in the Tspan12 LEL would be expected to destabilize the protein (i.e., mutations to or from cysteine or proline, or mutations to residues involved in packing interactions within the LEL fold), and therefore these mutations may produce a disease phenotype by impacting Tspan12 protein expression levels.  

      Several Norrin mutations that are associated with Norrie disease, FEVR, or other diseases of the retinal vasculature have been found in the predicted Tspan12 binding site. For example, Norrin mutations at positions L103 (L103Q, L103V), K104 (K104N, K104Q), and A105 (A105T, A105P, A105E, A105S, A105T, A105V) have been found in patients, all of which may disrupt binding to Tspan12. However, the deleterious effect of K104 mutations on Norrin-stimulated signaling could also be explained by a weakened Norrin-Fzd4 binding interface. Norrin mutations at R115 (R115L and R115Q), as well as R121 (R121L, R121G, R121Q, and R121W) have also been found in patients with various diseases of the retinal vasculature. Additionally, the Norrin mutation T119P has been found in patients with Norrie disease, but we would expect this mutation to destabilize Norrin in addition to disrupting the Tspan12 binding site. 

      While we commented briefly on mutations R115L and R121W in the original draft (page 5, paragraphs 4 and 1, respectively), we have updated the manuscript with more comments on disease-associated mutations to the predicted Tspan12 binding site on Norrin (page 5, first partial paragraph; page 9, first partial paragraph). 

      • Some of the negative conclusions (e.g. the lack of involvement of Tspan12 in the formation of the Norrin-Lrp5/6-Fzd4-Dvl signaling complex) can be difficult to interpret. There are many possible reasons as to why certain biological effects are not recapitulated in a reconstitution experiment. For instance, the recombinant proteins used in the experiment may not be presented in the correct configurations, and certain biochemical modifications, such as phosphorylation, may also be missing. 

      We agree that different Tspan12 and Fzd4 stoichiometries, lipid compositions, and posttranslational modifications could impact the results of our study, and that it is important to mention these possibilities. We have added these caveats to the discussion section (page 10, last paragraph).  

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review): 

      This is an interesting study of high quality with important and novel findings. Bruguera et al. report a biochemical and structural analysis of the Tspan12 co-receptor for norrin. Major findings are that Norrin directly binds Tspan12 with high affinity (this is consistent with a report on BioRxiv: Antibody Display of cell surface receptor Tetraspanin12 and SARS-CoV-2 spike protein) and a predicted structure of Tspan12 alone or in complex with Norrin. The

      Norrin/Tspan12 binding interface is largely verified by mutational analysis. An interaction of the Tspan12 large extracellular loop (LEL) with Fzd4 cannot be detected and interactions of fulllength Tspan12 and Fzd4 cannot be tested using nano-disc based BLI, however, Fzd4/Tspan12 heterodimers can be purified and inserted into nanodiscs when aided by split GFP tags. An analysis of a potential composite binding site of a Fzd4/Tspan12 complex is somewhat inconclusive, as no major increase in affinity is detected for the complex compared to the individual components. A caveat to this data is that affinity measurements were performed for complexes with approximately 1 molecule Tspan12 and FZD4 per nanodisc, while the composite binding site could potentially be formed only in higher order complexes, e.g., 2:2 Fzd4/Tspan12 complexes. Interestingly, the authors find that the Norrin/Tspan12 binding site and the Norrin/Lrp6 binding site partially overlap and that the Lrp6 ectodomain competes with Tspan12 for Norrin binding. This result leads the authors to propose a model according to which Tspan12 captures Norrin and then has to "hand it off" to allow for Fzd4/Lrp6 formation. By increasing the local concentration of Norrin, Tspan12 would enhance the formation of the Fzd4/Lrp5 or Fzd4/Lrp6 complex. 

      Thank you for pointing out the BioRxiv report showing Norrin-Tspan12 LEL binding. We have cited this in the introduction of our revised manuscript (page 2, paragraph 3).

      The experiments based on membrane proteins inserted into nano-discs and the structure prediction using AlphaFold yield important new insights into a protein complex that has critical roles in normal CNS vascular biology, retinal vascular disease, and is a target for therapeutic intervention. However, it remains unclear how Norrin would be "handed off" from Tspan12 or Tspan12/Fzd4 complexes to Fzd4/Lrp6 complexes, as the relatively high affinity of Norrin to Fzd4/Tspan12 dimers likely does not favor the "handing off" to Fzd4/Lrp6 complexes. 

      While the Fzd4-Tspan12 interaction is strong, our data suggest that Fzd4 and Tspan12 bind Norrin with negative cooperativity, suggesting that Fzd4 binding may enhance Norrin-Tspan12 dissociation to facilitate handoff. This model is based on 1) the dissociation of Norrin from beadbound Tspan12 in the presence of saturating Fzd4 CRD (Figure 3D), and 2) a weaker measured affinity of Norrin-Tspan12LEL in the presence of saturating Fzd4 CRD (Figure 3F). We have now added wording to emphasize this in the discussion section (page 9, end of first full paragraph).

      However, as you note, the Norrin-Tspan12 affinity that we measured in the presence of Fzd CRD (tens of nM) is still much stronger than the known Norrin-LRP6 affinity (0.5-1µM), which predicts that the efficiency of this handoff may be low. We have now commented on this in the discussion section and mentioned an alternative model in which Tspan12 presents the second Norrin protomer to LRP5/6 for signaling, instead of dissociating (page 9, paragraph 2). However, the handoff efficiency could also be impacted by other factors such as the relative abundance and surface distribution of Tspan12, Fzd4, LRP6 and HSPGs.  

      Areas that would benefit from further experiments, or a discussion, include: 

      -  The authors test a potential composite binding site of Fzd4/Tspan12 heterodimers for norrin using nanodiscs that contain on average about 1 molecule Fzd4 and 1 molecule Tspan12. The Fzd4/Tspan12 heterodimer is co-inserted into the nanodiscs supported by split-GFP tags on Fzd4 and Tspan12. The authors find no major increase in affinity, although they find changes to the Hill slope, reflecting better binding of norrin at low norrin concentrations. In 293F cells overexpressing Fzd4 and Tspan12 (which may result in a different stoichiometry) they find more pronounced effects of norrin binding to Fzd4/Tspan12. This raises the possibility that the formation of a composite binding requires Fzd4/Tspan12 complexes of higher order, for example, 2:2 Fzd4/Tspan12 complexes, where the composite binding site may involve residues of each Fzd4 and Tspan12 molecule in the complex. This could be tested in nanodiscs in which Fzd4 and Tspan12 are inserted at higher concentrations or using Fzd4 and Tspan12 that contain additional tags for oligomerization. 

      It is quite possible that Tspan12 and Fzd4 cluster into complexes with a stoichiometry greater than 1:1 in cells (this is supported by e.g., BRET experiments in (Ke et al., 2013)), and we mention in the discussion that that receptor clustering may be an additional mechanism by which Tspan12 exerts its function (page 10, paragraph 4). We would be quite interested to know the stoichiometry of Fzd4 and Tspan12 complexes in cells at endogenous expression levels, both in the presence and absence of Norrin, and to biochemically characterize these putative larger complexes in the future. We have amended the discussion to mention the caveat that our reconstitution experiments do not test higher-stoichiometry Fzd4/Tspan12 complexes (page 10, last paragraph).

      - While Tspan12 LEL does not bind to Fzd4, the successful reconstitution of GFP from Tspan12 and Fzd4 tagged with split GFP components provides evidence for Fzd4/Tspan12 complex formation. As a negative control, e.g., Fzd5, or Tspan11 with split GFP tags (Fzd5/Tspan12 or Fzd4/Tspan11) would clarify if FZD4/Tspan12 heterodimers are an artefact of the split GFP system. 

      The split-GFP system allows us to co-purify receptors that do not normally co-localize (for example, as we have shown with Fzd4 and LRP6 in the absence of ligand (Bruguera et al., 2022)) so we do not mean to claim that it provides evidence for Fzd4/Tspan12 complex formation. In fact, we were unable to co-purify co-expressed Fzd4 and Tspan12 unless they were tethered with the split GFP system, and separately-purified Fzd4 and Tspan12 did not incorporate into nanodiscs together unless they were tethered by split GFP. Based on these experiments, we expect that the purported Fzd4-Tspan12 interaction that others have found by co-IP or co-localization is easily disrupted by detergent, may require a specific lipid, and/or may not be direct.

      To clarify this point, we have noted in the results section that without the split GFP tags, Tspan12 and Fzd4 did not co-purify or co-reconstitute into nanodiscs, and that co-reconstitution was enabled by the split GFP system (page 6, first full paragraph).   

      - Fzd4/Tspan12 heterodimers stabilized by split GFP may be locked into an unfavorable orientation that does not allow for the formation of a composite binding site of FZD4 and Tspan12, this is another caveat for the interpretation that Fzd4/Tspan12 do not form a composite binding site. This is not discussed. 

      While the split GFP does enforce a Fzd4/Tspan12 dimer, the split GFP is removed by protease cleavage during the final step of the purification process, after the dimer is contained in a nanodisc. This should allow Fzd4 and Tspan12 to freely adopt any pose and to diffuse within the confines of the nanodisc lipid bilayer. However, it has been shown that the phospholipid bilayer in small nanodiscs is not as fluid as the physiological plasma membrane, and although we used the slightly larger belt protein (MSP1E3D1, 13 nm diameter nanodiscs), perhaps the receptors are indeed locked in some unfavorable state for this reason. Additionally, the nanodiscs are planar, so if the formation of a composite binding site requires membrane curvature, this would not be recapitulated in our system. We have cited these caveats in the discussion section (page 10, last paragraph).  

      - Mutations that affect the affinity of norrin/fzd4 are not used to further test if Fzd4 and Tspan12 form a composite binding site. Norrin R41E or Fzd4 M105V were previously reported to reduce norrin/frizzled4 interactions and signaling, and both interaction and signaling were restored by Tspan12 (Lai et al. 2017). Whether a Fzd4/Tspan12 heterodimer has increased affinity for Norrin R41E was not tested. Similarly, affinity of FZD4 M105V vs a Fzd4 M105V/Tspan12 heterodimer were not tested. 

      Since the high affinity of Norrin for both Fzd4 and Tspan12 may have obscured any enhancement of Norrin affinity for Fzd4/Tspan12 compared to either receptor alone, we did consider weakening Fzd-Norrin affinity to sensitize this experiment, inspired by the experiments you mention in (Lai et al., 2017). However, we suspected that the slight increase in Norrin affinity for the Fzd4/Tspan12 dimer compared to Fzd4 alone was driven mainly by increased avidity that enhanced binding of low Norrin concentrations, and this avidity effect would likely confound the interpretation of any experiment monitoring 2:2 complex formation. Additionally, on the basis that soluble Fzd4 extracellular domain and Tspan12 bind Norrin with negative cooperativity (Figures 3D and 3F), we concluded that this composite binding site was unlikely.

      - An important conclusion of the study is that Tspan12 or Lrp6 binding to Norrin is mutually exclusive. This could be corroborated by an experiment in which LRP5/6 is inserted into nanodiscs for BLI binding tests with Norrin, or Tspan12 LEL, or a combination of both. Soluble LRP6 may remove norrin from equilibrium binding/unbinding to Tspan12, therefore presenting LRP6 in a non-soluble form may yield different results. 

      We agree that testing this conclusion in an orthogonal experiment would be a valuable addition to this study. We have now performed a similar experiment to the one you described, but with Norrin immobilized on biosensors, and with LRP6 in detergent competing with Tspan12 LEL for Norrin binding (Figure S12, discussed on page 8, first full paragraph). The results of this experiment show that biosensor-immobilized Norrin will bind LRP6, and that soluble Tspan12 inhibits LRP6 binding in a concentration-dependent manner. The LRP6 construct we use (residues 20-1439) includes the transmembrane domain but has a truncated C terminus, since LRP6 constructs containing the full C terminus tend to aggregate during purification. We chose to immobilize Norrin to make the experiment as interpretable as possible, since immobilizing LRP6 and competing Norrin off with the LEL could result in an increase in signal (from the LEL binding the second available Norrin protomer) as well as a decrease (from Norrin being competed off of the immobilized LRP6). We conducted the experiment in detergent (DDM) instead of nanodiscs to be able to test higher concentrations of LRP6.

      - The authors use LRP6 instead of LRP5 for their experiments. Tspan12 is less effective in increasing the Norrin/Fzd4/Lrp6 signaling amplitude compared to Norrin/Fzd4/Lrp5 signaling, and human genetic evidence (FEVR) implicates LRP5, not LRP6, in Norrin/Frizzled4 signaling. The authors find that Norrin binding to LRP6 and Tspan12 is mutually exclusive, however this may not be the case for Lrp5. 

      This is an important point which we have now addressed in the text (page 8, end of first full paragraph). LRP5 is indeed the receptor implicated in FEVR and expressed in the relevant tissues for Tspan12/Norrin signaling. Unfortunately, LRP5 expresses poorly and we are unable to purify sufficient quantities to perform these experiments. However, LRP5 and LRP6 both transduce Tspan12-enhanced Norrin signaling in TOPFLASH assays (as you mention and as shown by (Zhou and Nathans, 2014)), bind Norrin, and are highly similar (they share 71% sequence identity overall and 73% sequence identity in the extracellular domain), so we expect their Norrin-binding sites to be conserved.

      - The biochemical data are largely not correlated with functional data. The authors suggest that the Norrin R115L FEVR mutation could be due to reduced norrin binding to tspan12, but do not test if Tspan12-mediated enhancement of the norrin signaling amplitude is reduced by the R115L mutation. Similarly, the impressive restoration of binding by charge reversal mutations in site 3 is not corroborated in signaling assays. 

      We agree that testing the impact of Norrin mutations in cell-based signaling assays would be an informative way to further test our model. However, the Norrin mutants we tested generated poor TopFlash signals in all conditions tested. This may be due to general protein instability, weakened affinity for LRP, or weaker interactions with HSPGs. Whatever the cause, the low signal made it challenging to conclusively say whether the Norrin mutations affected Tspan12mediated signaling enhancement.

      When expressed for purification, Tspan12 mutants generally expressed poorly compared to WT Tspan12, so we were concerned that differences in protein stability or trafficking would lead to lower cell-surface levels of mutant Tspan12 relative to WT in TopFlash signaling assays, which would confound interpretation of mutant Tspan’s ability to enhance Norrin signaling.

      Because of these challenges, follow-up experiments to investigate the signaling capabilities of Norrin and Tspan12 mutants were not informative and we have not included them in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review): 

      Brugeuera et al present an impressive series of biochemical experiments that address the question of how Tspan12 acts to promote signaling by Norrin, a highly divergent TGF-beta family member that serves as a ligand for Fzd4 and Lrp5/6 to promote canonical Wnt signaling during CNS (and especially retinal) vascular development. The present study is distinguished from those of the past 15 years by its quantitative precision and its high-quality analyses of concentration dependencies, its use of well-characterized nano-disc-incorporated membrane proteins and various soluble binding partners, and its use of structure prediction (by AlphaFold) to guide experiments. The authors start by measuring the binding affinity of Norrin to Tspan12 in nanodiscs (~10 nM), and they then model this interaction with AlphaFold and test the predicted interface with various charge and size swap mutations. The test suggests that the prediction is approximately correct, but in one region (site 1) the experimental data do not support the model. [As noted by the authors, a failure of swap mutations to support a docking model is open to various interpretations. As AlphFold docking predictions come increasingly into common use, the compendium of mutational tests and their interpretations will become an important object of study.] Next, the authors show that Tspan12 and Fzd4 can simultaneously bind Norrin, with modest negative cooperativity, and that together they enhance Norrin capture by cells expressing both Tspan12 and Fzd4 compared to Fzd4 alone, an effect that is most pronounced at low Norrin concentration. Similarly, at low Norrin concentration (~1 nM), signaling is substantially enhanced by Tspan12. By contrast, the authors show that LRP6 competes with Tspan12 for Norrin binding, implying a hand-off of Norrin from a Tspan12+Fzd4+Norrin complex to a LRP5/6+Fzd4+Norrin complex. Thanks to the authors' careful dose-response analyses, they observed that Norrin-induced signaling and Tspan12 enhancement of signaling both have bell-shaped dose-response curves, with strong inhibition at higher levels of Norrin or Tspan12. The implication is that the signaling system has been built for optimal detection of low concentrations of Norrin (most likely the situation in vivo), and that excess Tspan12 can titrate Norrin at the expense of LRP5/6 binding (i.e., reduction in the formation of the LRP5/6+Fzd4+Norrin signaling complex). In the view of this reviewer, the present work represents a foundational advance in understanding Norrin signaling and the role of Tspan12. It will also serve as an important point of comparison for thinking about signaling complexes in other ligand-receptor systems. 

      Recommendations for the authors: 

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):   

      - In Figure 5F high concentrations of transfected Tspan12 plasmid inhibit signaling, which the authors interpret to support the model that Tspan12/Norrin binding prevents Norrin/LRP6/FZD4 complex formation. Alternatively, the cells do not tolerate the expression of the tetraspanin at high levels, for example, due to misfolding and aggregate formation. To distinguish these possibilities: Do high levels of Tspan12 overexpression also inhibit signaling induced by Wnt3a and appropriate Frizzled receptors, even though Tspan12 has no influence on Wnt/LRP6 binding? 

      We thank the reviewer for suggesting this important control experiment. We have added the Wnt-simulated TOPFLASH values to the figure in 5F for all conditions. In repeating this experiment, we noticed that high levels of transfected Tspan12 may decrease cell viability and therefore have adjusted the range of transfected Tspan12 in the new Figure 5F (discussed on page 8, second full paragraph). Under this new protocol, both Norrin- and Wnt-stimulated signaling were inhibited by the highest amount of transfected Tspan12. However, Norrinstimulated signaling is inhibited by lower amounts of transfected Tspan12 than Wnt-stimulated signaling, and to a greater extent, supporting our proposed model that Tspan12 competes with LRP for Norrin binding.

      - Is Tspan12 with c-terminal rho-tag (the form incorporated into nanodiscs) also used for functional luciferase assays, or was untagged Tspan12 used for the luciferase assays in Fig 4D and 5F? Does the c-terminal tag interfere with Tspan12-mediated enhancement of Norrin signaling? 

      For the luciferase assays included in this manuscript, wildtype, full-length, untagged Tspan12 is used. We have clarified this in our methods section. When we tested the wildtype vs Cterminally rho1D4-tagged version of Tspan12 in TOPFLASH assays, we saw that the enhancement of Norrin signaling by Tspan12-1D4 was weaker than enhancement by untagged Tspan12. This is consistent with the finding reported in Cell Reports (Lai et al., 2017) that a chimeric Tspan12 receptor with its C-terminus replaced with that of Tspan11 was still capable of enhancing Norrin signaling, though to a lesser extent than WT Tspan12. The deficiency of signaling by our rho1D4-tagged Tspan12 could be due to a difference in receptor expression level or trafficking, but in the absence of a reliable antibody against Tspan12, we were unable to assess the expression levels or localization of the untagged Tspan12 to compare it to the rho1D4-tagged version. (For binding experiments, we reasoned that the C-terminal tag should not affect Tspan12’s ability to bind Norrin extracellularly, especially as we found that purified fulllength Tspan12 and Tspan12∆C (residues 1-252) bound Norrin equally well; we have added this comparison to table S1.)  

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      Minor comments. 

      Based on the Fzd4-Dvl binding experiment, the authors might state explicitly the possibility that Tspan12's relevance is entirely accounted for by extracellular ligand capture. 

      We have stated this possibility explicitly in the discussion section (page 9, last paragraph). 

      Page 4, 3rd paragraph. I suggest "To experimentally test this structural prediction..." rather than "validate". 

      Thank you for this suggestion; we have replaced this wording. 

      This next item is optional, but I hope that the authors will consider it. This manuscript provides an opportunity for the authors to be more expansive in their thinking, and to put their work into the larger context of ligand+receptor+accessory protein interactions. The authors describe the Wnt7a/7b-Gpr124-RECK system and the role of HSPs in Norrin and Wnt signaling, but perhaps they can also comment on non-Wnt ligand-receptor systems where accessory proteins are found. They might add a figure (or supplemental figure) with a schematic showing the roles of HSP and Gpr124-RECK, and some non-Wnt ligand-receptor systems. This would help to make the present work more widely influential.

      Thank you for this suggestion. We have added a figure (Figure 6, discussed on page 10, paragraphs 2 and 3) and expanded our discussion to include other co-receptor systems. We have specifically focused on co-receptors that both capture ligands and interact with their primary receptor(s), thus delivering ligands to their receptors, as we have proposed for Tspan12. Within Wnt signaling, other co-receptor systems with this mechanism are RECK/Gpr124 (for Wnt7a/b) and Glypican-3. We found it interesting that this mechanism is also shared by several growth factor pathways with cystine knot ligands (like Norrin), so we have illustrated and mentioned three of these examples.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this study, Zhang et al., presented an electrophysiology method to identify the layers of macaque visual cortex with high density Neuropixels 1.0 electrode. They found several electrophysiology signal profiles for high-resolution laminar discrimination and described a set of signal metrics for fine cortical layer identification.

      Strengths:

      There are two major strengths. One is the use of high density electrodes. The Neuropixels 1.0 probe has 20 um spacing electrodes, which can provide high resolution for cortical laminar identification. The second strength is the analysis. They found multiple electrophysiology signal profiles which can be used for laminar discrimination. Using this new method, they could identify the most thin layer in macaque V1. The data support their conclusion.

      Weaknesses:

      While this electrophysiology strategy is much easier to perform even in awake animals compared to histological staining methods, it provides an indirect estimation of cortical layers. A parallel histological study can provide a direct matching between the electrode signal features and cortical laminar locations. However, there are technical challenges, for example the distortions in both electrode penetration and tissue preparation may prevent a precise matching between electrode locations and cortical layers. In this case, additional micro wires electrodes binding with Neuropixels probe can be used to inject current and mark the locations of different depths in cortical tissue after recording.

      While we agree that it would be helpful to adopt a more direct method for linking laminar changes observed with electrophysiology to anatomical layers observed in postmortem histology, we do not believe that the approach suggested by the reviewer would be particularly helpful. The approach suggested involves making lesions, which are known to be quite variable in size, asymmetric in shape, and do not have a predictable geometry relative to the location of the electrode tip. In contrast, our electrophysiology measures have identified clear boundaries which precisely match the known widths and relative positions of all the layers of V1, including layer 4A, which is only 50 microns thick, much smaller than the resolution of lesion methods.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This paper documents an attempt to accurately determine the locations and boundaries of the anatomically and functionally defined layers in macaque primary visual cortex using voltage signals recorded from a high-density electrode array that spans the full depth of cortex with contacts at 20 um spacing. First, the authors attempt to use current source density (CSD) analysis to determine layer locations, but they report a striking failure because the results vary greatly from one electrode penetration to the next and because the spatial resolution of the underlying local field potential (LFP) signal is coarse compared to the electrical contact spacing. The authors thus turn to examining higher frequency signals related to action potentials and provide evidence that these signals reflect changes in neuronal size and packing density, response latency and visual selectivity.

      Strengths:

      There is a lot of nice data to look at in this paper that shows interesting quantities as a function of depth in V1. Bringing all of these together offers the reader a rich data set: CSD, action potential shape, response power and coherence spectrum, and post-stimulus time response traces. Furthermore, data are displayed as a function of eye (dominant or non-dominant) and for achromatic and cone-isolating stimuli.

      This paper takes a strong stand in pointing out weaknesses in the ability of CSD analysis to make consistent determinations about cortical layering in V1. Many researchers have found CSD to be problematic, and the observations here may be important to motivate other researchers to carry out rigorous comparisons and publish their results, even if they reflect negatively on the value of CSD analysis.

      The paper provides a thoughtful, practical and comprehensive recipe for assigning traditional cortical layers based on easily-computed metrics from electrophysiological recordings in V1, and this is likely to be useful for electrophysiologists who are now more frequently using high-density electrode arrays.

      Weaknesses:

      Much effort is spent pointing out features that are well known, for example, the latency difference associated with different retinogeniculate pathways, the activity level differences associated with input layers, and the action potential shape differences associated with white vs. gray matter. These have been used for decades as indicators of depth and location of recordings in visual cortex as electrodes were carefully advanced. High density electrodes allow this type of data to now be collected in parallel, but at discrete, regular sampling points. Rather than showing examples of what is already accepted, the emphasis should be placed on developing a rigorous analysis of how variable vs. reproducible are quantitative metrics of these features across penetrations, as a function of distance or functional domain, and from animal to animal. Ultimately, a more quantitative approach to the question of consistency is needed to assess the value of the methods proposed here.

      We thank the reviewer for suggesting the addition of quantitative metrics to allow more substantive comparisons between various measures within and between penetrations. We have added quantification and describe this in the context of more specific comments made by this reviewer. We have retained descriptions of metrics that are well established because they provide an important validation of our approaches and laminar assignments.

      Another important piece of information for assessing the ability to determine layers from spiking activity is to carry out post-mortem histological processing so that the layer determination made in this paper could be compared to anatomical layering.

      We are not aware of any approach that would provide such information at sufficient resolution. For example, it is well known that electrolytic lesions often do not match to the locations expected from electrophysiological changes observed with single electrodes. As noted above, our observation that the laminar changes in electrophysiology precisely match the known widths and relative positions of all the layers of V1, including layer 4A, provides confidence in our laminar assignments.

      On line 162, the text states that there is a clear lack of consistency across penetrations, but why should there be consistency: how far apart in the cortex were the penetrations? How long were the electrodes allowed to settle before recording, how much damage was done to tissue during insertion? Do you have data taken over time - how consistent is the pattern across several hours, and how long was the time between the collection of the penetrations shown here?

      Answers to most of these questions can be found within the manuscript text. We have added text describing distance between electrode penetrations (at least 1mm, typically far more) and added a figure which shows a map of the penetration locations. The Methods section describes electrode penetration methods to minimize damage and settling times of penetrations. Data are provided regarding changes in recordings over time (see Methods, Drift Correction). The stimuli used to generate the data described are presented within a total of 30 minutes or less, minimizing any changes that might occur due to electrode drift. There is a minimum of 3 hours between different penetrations from the same animal.

      The impact of the paper is lessened because it emphasizes consistency but not in a consistent manner. Some demonstrations of consistency are shown for CSDs, but not quantified. Figure 4A is used to make a point about consistency in cell density, but across animals, whereas the previous text was pointing out inconsistency across penetrations. What if you took a 40 or 60 um column of tissue and computed cell density, then you would be comparing consistency across potentially similar scales. Overall, it is not clear how all of these different metrics compare quantitatively to each other in terms of consistency.

      As noted above, we have now added quantitative comparisons of consistency between different metrics. It is unclear why the reviewer felt that we use Figure 4A to describe consistency. That figure was a photograph from a previous publication simply showing the known differences in neuron density that are used to define layers in anatomical studies. This was intended to introduce the reader to known laminar differences. At any rate, we have been unable to contact the previous publishers of that work to obtain permission to use the figure. So we have removed that figure as it is unnecessary to illustrate the known differences in cell density that are used to define layers. We have kept the citation so that interested readers can refer to the publication.

      In many places, the text makes assertions that A is a consistent indicator of B, but then there appear to be clear counterexamples in the data shown in the figures. There is some sense that the reasoning is relying too much on examples, and not enough on statistical quantities.

      Without reference to specific examples we are not able to address this point.

      Overall

      Overall, this paper makes a solid argument in favor of using action potentials and stimulus driven responses, instead of CSD measurements, to assign cortical layers to electrode contacts in V1. It is nice to look at the data in this paper and to read the authors' highly educated interpretation and speculation about how useful such measurements will be in general to make layer assignments. It is easy to agree with much of what they say, and to hope that in the future there will be reliable, quantitative methods to make meaningful segmentations of neurons in terms of their differentiated roles in cortical computation. How much this will end up corresponding to the canonical layer numbering that has been used for many decades now remains unclear.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      Zhang et al. explored strategies for aligning electrophysiological recordings from high-density laminar electrode arrays (Neuropixels) with the pattern of lamination across cortical depth in macaque primary visual cortex (V1), with the goal of improving the spatial resolution of layer identification based on electrophysiological signals alone. The authors compare the current commonly used standard in the field - current source density (CSD) analysis - with a new set of measures largely derived from action potential (AP) frequency band signals. Individual AP band measures provide distinct cues about different landmarks or potential laminar boundaries, and together they are used to subdivide the spatial extent of array recordings into discrete layers, including the very thin layer 4A, a level of resolution unavailable when relying on CSD analysis alone for laminar identification. The authors compare the widths of the resulting subdivisions with previously reported anatomical measurements as evidence that layers have been accurately identified. This is a bit circular, given that they also use these anatomical measurements as guidelines limiting the boundary assignments; however, the strategy is overall sensible and the electrophysiological signatures used to identify layers are generally convincing. Furthermore, by varying the pattern of visual stimulation to target chromatically sensitive inputs known to be partially segregated by layer in V1, they show localized response patterns that lend confidence to their identification of particular sublayers.

      The authors compellingly demonstrate the insufficiency of CSD analysis for precisely identifying fine laminar structure, and in some cases its limited accuracy at identifying coarse structure. CSD analysis produced inconsistent results across array penetrations and across visual stimulus conditions and was not improved in spatial resolution by sampling at high density with Neuropixels probes. Instead, in order to generate a typical, informative pattern of current sources and sinks across layers, the LFP signals from the Neuropixels arrays required spatial smoothing or subsampling to approximately match the coarser (50-100 µm) spacing of other laminar arrays. Even with smoothing, the resulting CSDs in some cases predicted laminar boundaries that were inconsistent with boundaries estimated using other measures and/or unlikely given the typical sizes of individual layers in macaque V1. This point alone provides an important insight for others seeking to link their own laminar array recordings to cortical layers.

      They next offer a set of measures based on analysis of AP band signals. These measures include analyses of the density, average signal spread, and spike waveforms of single- and multi-units identified through spike sorting, as well as analyses of AP band power spectra and local coherence profiles across recording depth. The power spectrum measures in particular yield compact peaks at particular depths, albeit with some variation across penetrations, whereas the waveform measures most convincingly identified the layer 6-white matter transition. In general, some of the new measures yield inconsistent patterns across penetrations, and some of the authors' explanations of these analyses draw intriguing but rather speculative connections to properties of anatomy and/or responsivity. However, taken as a group, the set of AP band analyses appear sufficient to determine the layer 6-white matter transition with precision and to delineate intermediate transition points likely to correspond to actual layer boundaries.

      Strengths:

      The authors convincingly demonstrate the potential to resolve putative laminar boundaries using only electrophysiological recordings from Neuropixels arrays. This is particularly useful given that histological information is often unavailable for chronic recordings. They make a clear case that CSD analysis is insufficient to resolve the lamination pattern with the desired precision and offer a thoughtful set of alternative analyses, along with an order in which to consider multiple cues in order to facilitate others' adoption of the strategy. The widths of the resulting layers bear a sensible resemblance to the expected widths identified by prior anatomical measurements, and at least in some cases there are satisfying signatures of chromatic visual sensitivity and latency differences across layers that are predicted by the known connectivity of the corresponding layers. Thus, the proposed analytical toolkit appears to work well for macaque V1 and has strong potential to generalize to use in other cortical regions, though area-targeted selection of stimuli may be required.

      Weaknesses:

      The waveform measures, and in particular the unit density distribution, are likely to be sensitive to the criteria used for spike sorting, which differ widely among experimenters/groups, and this may limit the usefulness of this particular measure for others in the community. The analysis of detected unit density yields fluctuations across cortical depth which the authors attribute to variations in neural density across layers; however, these patterns seemed particularly variable across penetrations and did not consistently yield peaks at depths that should have high neuronal density, such as layer 2. Therefore, this measure has limited interpretability.

      While we agree that our electrophysiological measure of unit density does not strictly reflect anatomical neuronal density, we would like to remind the reader that we use this measure only to roughly estimate the correspondence between changes in density and likely layer assignments. We rely on other measures (e.g. AP power, AP power changes in response to visual stimuli) that have sharp borders and more clear transitions to assign laminar boundaries. Further, as noted in the reviewer’s list of strengths, the laminar assignments made with these measures are cross validated by differences in response latencies and sensitivity to different types of stimuli that are observed at different electrode depths.

      More generally, although the sizes of identified layers comport with typical sizes identified anatomically, a more powerful confirmation would be a direct per-penetration comparison with histologically identified boundaries. Ultimately, the absence of this type of independent confirmation limits the strength of their claim that veridical laminar boundaries can be identified from electrophysiological signals alone.

      As we have noted in response to similar comments from other reviewers, we are not aware of a method that would make this possible with sufficient resolution.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewing Editor (Recommendations For The Authors):

      The reviewers have indicated that their assessment would potentially be stronger if their advice for quantitative, statistically validated comparisons was followed, for example, to demonstrate variability or consistency of certain measures that are currently only asserted. Also, if available, some histological confirmation would be beneficial. It was requested that the use and modification of the layering from Balaram & Kaas is addressed, as well as dealing with inconsistencies in the scale bars on those figures. There are two figure permission issues that need to be resolved prior to publication: Balaram & Kaas 2014 in Fig 1A, Kelly & Hawken 2017 in Fig. 4A.

      Please see detailed responses to reviewer comments below. We have added new supplemental figures to quantitatively compare variability among metrics. As noted above, the suggested addition of data linking the electrophysiology directly to anatomical observations of laminar borders from the same electrode penetration is not feasible. The figure reused in Figure 1A is from open-access (CC BY) publication (Balaram & Kaas 2014). After reexamining the figure in the original study, we found that the inferred scale bar would give an obviously inaccurate result. So, we decided to remove the scale bar in Figure 1A. We haven’t received any reply from Springer Nature for Figure 4A permission, so we decided to remove the reused figure from our article (Kelly & Hawken 2017).

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):<br /> Figure 4A has a different scale to Figure 4B-4F. It is better to add dashed lines to indicate the relationship between the cortical layers or overall range from Figure 4A to the corresponding layers in 4B to 4F.

      The reused figure in Figure 4A is removed due to permission issue. See also comments above.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      General comments

      This paper demonstrates that voltage signals in frequency bands higher than those used for LFP/CSD analysis can be used from high-density electrical contact recording to generate a map of cortical layering in macaque V1 at a higher spatial resolution than previously attained.

      My main concern is that much of this paper seems to show that properties of voltage signals recorded by electrodes change with depth in V1. This of course is well known and has been mapped by many who have advanced a single electrode micron-by-micron through the cortex, listening and recording as they go. Figure 4 shows that spike shapes can give a clear indication of GM to WM borders, and this is certainly true and well known. Figures 5 and 6 show that activity level on electrodes can indicate layers related to LGN input, and this is known. Figure 7 shows that latencies vary with layer, and this is certainly true as we know. A main point seems to be that CSD is highly inconsistent. This is important to know if CSD is simply never going to be a good measure for layering in V1, but it would require quantification and statistics to make a fair comparison.

      We are glad to see that the reviewer understands that changes in electrical signals across layers are well known and are expected to have particular traits that change across layers. We do not claim that have discovered anything that is unexpected or unknown. Instead, we introduce quantitative measures that are sensitive to these known differences (historically, often just heard with an audio monitor e.g. “LGN axon hash”). While the primary aim of this paper is not to show that Neuropixels probes can record some voltage signal properties that cannot be recorded with a single electrode before, we would like to point out that multi-electrode arrays have a very different sampling bias and also allow comparisons of simultaneous recordings across contacts with known fixed distances between them. For example our measure of “unit spread” could not be estimated with a single electrode.

      We’ve added Figure S3 to show quantitative comparison of variation between CSD and AP metrics. These figures add support to our prior, more anecdotal descriptions showing that CSDs are inconsistent and lack the resolution needed to identify thin layers.

      Some things are not explained very clearly. Like achromatic regions, and eye dominance - these are not quantified, and we don't know if they are mutually consistent - are achromatic/chromatic the same when tested through separate eyes? How consistent are these basic definitions? How definitive are they?

      The quantitative definitions of achromatic region/COFD and eye dominance column can be found in our previous paper (Li et al., 2022) cited in this article. The main theme of this study is to develop a strategy for accurately identifying layers, the more detailed functional analysis will be described in future publications.

      Specific comments

      The abstract refers to CSD analysis and CSD signals. Can you be more precise - do you aim to say that LFP signals in certain frequency bands are already known to lack spatial localization, or are you claiming to be showing that LFP signals lack spatial resolution? A major point of the results appears to be lack of consistency of CSD, but I do not see that in the Abstract. The first sentence in the abstract appears to be questionable based on the results shown here for V1.

      We have updated the Abstract to minimize confusion and misunderstanding.

      Scale bar on Fig 1A implies that layers 2-5 are nearly 3 mm thick. Can you explain this thickness? Other figures here suggest layers 1-6 is less than 2 mm thick. Note, in a paper by the same authors (Balaram et al) the scale bar (100 um, Figure 4) on similar macaque tissue suggests that the cortex is much thinner than this. Perhaps neither is correct, but you should attempt to determine an approximately accurate scale. The text defines granular as Layer 4, but the scale bar in A implies layer 4 is 1 mm thick, but this does not match the ~0.5 mm thickness consistent with Figure 1E, F. The text states that L4A is less then 100 um thick, but the markings and scale bar in Figure 1A suggests that it could be more than 100 um thick.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing out that there are clearly errors in the scale bars used in these previously published figures from another group. In the original figure 1(Balaram & Kaas 2014), histological slices were all scaled to one of the samples (Chimpanzee) without scale bar. After reexamining the scale bar we derived based on figure 2 of the original study, we found the same problem. Since relative widths of layers are more important than absolute widths in our study, we decided to remove the scale bar that we had derived and added to the Figure 1A.

      Line 157. Fix "The most commonly visual stimulus"

      Text has been changed

      Line 161. Fix "through dominate eye"

      Text has been changed

      Line 166. Please specify if the methods established and validated below are histological, or tell something about their nature here.

      The Abstract and Introduction already described the nature of our methods

      Line 184. Text is mixing 'dominant' and 'dominate', the former is better.

      Text has been changed accordingly

      Line 188. Can you clarify "beyond the time before a new stimulus transition". Are you generally referring to the fact that neuronal responses outlast the time between changes in the stimulus?

      That is correct. We are referring to the fact that neuronal responses outlast the time between changes in the stimulus. We have edited the text for clarity.

      Line 196. Fix "dominate eye" in two places.

      Text has been changed

      Line 196. The text seems to imply it is striking to find different response patterns for the two eyes, but given the OD columns, why should this be surprising?

      Since we didn’t find systematic comparison for CSD depth profiles of dominant/non-dominant eyes, or black/white in the past studies, we just describe what we saw in our data. The rational for testing each eye is that it is known that LGN projections from two eyes remain separated in direct input layer of V1, so comparing CSDs from two eyes could potentially help identifying input layers, such as L4C. Here we provide evidence showing that CSD profiles from two eyes deviate from naive expectations. For example, CSDs from black stimulus show less variation between two eyes, whereas CSDs from white stimulus could range from similar profile to drastically different ones across eyes.

      Line 198. Text like, "The most consistent..." is stating overall conclusions drawn by the authors before pointing the reader specifically to the evidence or the quantification that supports the statement.

      We’ve adjusted the text pointing to Figure S2, where depth profiles of all penetrations are visualized, and a newly added Figure S3, where the coefficients of variation for several metric profiles were shown.

      Line 200. "white stimulus is more variable" - the text does not tell us where/how this is supported with quantitative analysis/statistics.

      We’ve adjusted the text pointing to Figure S2, S3

      The metric in 4B is not explained, the text mentions the plot but the reader is unable to make any judgement without knowledge of the method, nor any estimate of error bars.

      The figure is first mentioned in section: Unit Density, and text in this section already described the definition of neuron density and unit density.  We’ve also modified the text pointing to the method section for details.

      Line 236. The text states the peak corresponds to L4C, but does not explain how the layer lines were determined.

      As described early in the CSD section, all layer boundaries are determined following the guide which layouts the strategy for how to draw borders by combining all metrics.

      At Line 296 the spike metrics section ends without providing a clear quantification of how useful the metrics will be. It is clear that the GM to WM boundary can be identified, but that can be found with single electrodes as well, as neurophysiologists get to see/hear the change in waveform as the electrode is advanced in even finer spatial increments than the 20 um spacing of the contacts here.

      The aim of this study is to develop an approach for accurately delineating layers simultaneously. The metrics we explored are considered estimation of well-known properties, so they can provide support for the correctness we hope to achieve. Here we first demonstrate the usefulness and later show the average across penetrations (Figure 9C-F). We are less concerned in quantification of how different factors affect precision and consistency of these metrics or how useful a single metric is, but rather, as described in the guide section, whether we can delineate all layers given all metrics.

      Line 302-306. Why this statement is made here is unclear, it interrupts the flow for a reason that perhaps will be explained later.

      This statement notes the insensitivity of this measure to temporal differences, introducing the value of incorporating a measure of how AP powers changes over time in the next section of the manuscript.

      Line 311. What is the reason to speculate about no canceling because of temporal overlap? Are you assuming a very sparse multi unit firing rate such that collisions do not happen?

      Here we describe a simple theoretical model in which spike waveforms only add without cancelling, then the power would be proportional to the number of spikes. In reality, spike waveform sometimes cancels causing the theoretical relationship to deteriorate to some degree.

      Lines 327-346. There is a considerable amount of speculation and arguing based on particular examples and there is a lack of quantification. Neuron density is mentioned, but not firing rate. would responses from fewer neurons with higher firing rate not be similar to more neurons with lower firing rates?

      According to the theoretical model we described, power is proportional to numbers of spikes which then depend on both neuron density and firing rate. So fewer neurons with higher firing rate would generate similar power to more neurons with lower firing rate. We’ve expanded the explanation of the model and added Figure S4 about the depth profile of firing rate. Text has also been adjusted pointing to the Figure S2, S3 about quantitively comparisons of variability.

      Line 348 states there is a precise link between properties and cortical layers, but the manuscript has not, up to this point, shown how that link was determined or quantified it.

      Through our generative model of power and the similarity between depth profile of firing rate and depth profile of neuron density (Figure S4), depth profile of power can be used to approximate depth profile of neuron density which is known to be closely correlated to cortical layering.

      Line 350. What is meant by "stochastic variability"?

      The text essentially says distances from electrode contact to nearby cell bodies were random, so closer cells have higher spike amplitudes and in turn result in higher power on a channel.

      The figures showing the two metrics, Pf and Cf, should be shown for the same data sets. The markings indicate that Fig 5 and Fig 6 show results from non-overlapping data sets. This does not build confidence about the results in the paper.

      Here we use typical profiles to demonstrate the characteristics of the power spectrum/coherence spectrum because of the variation across penetrations. We show later, in the guide section, all metrics for one penetration (another two cases in supplemental figures) and how to combine all metrics to derive layer delineations.

      Line 375 the statement is somewhat vague, "there are nevertheless sometimes cases where they can resolve uncertainties," can you please provide some quantitative support?

      We provided 3 examples in Figure 6, and more examples are shown in Figure 8, Figure S5, S6.

      Line 379. I believe the change you want to describe here is a change associated with a transition in the visual stimulus. It would be good to clarify this in the first several sentences here. Baseline can mean different things. I got the impression that your stimuli flip between states at a rate fast enough that signals do not really have time to return to a baseline.

      We rephrased the sentence to describe the metric more precisely. A pair of uniform colors flipping in 1.5 second intervals is usually long enough for spiking activities to decay to a saturated level.

      This section (379 - 398) continues a qualitative show-and-tell feel. There appears to be a lot of variability across the examples in Figure 7. How could you try to quantify this variability versus the variability in LFP? And, in this section overall, the text and figure legend don't really describe what the baseline is.

      Text adjustments are made to briefly describe the baseline window and point to the Method section where definitions are described in detail. We’ve added Figure S3 together with Figure S2 to address the variability across penetrations, stimuli, and metrics.

      Line 405 - 415. The discussion here does not consider that layers may not have well defined boundaries, the text gives the impression that there is some ultimate ground truth to which the metrics are being compared, but that may not be accurate.

      Except for a few layers/sublayers, such as L2, L3A, L3B, most layer boundaries of neocortex are well defined (Figure 1A) and histological staining of neurons/density and correlated changes in chemical content show very sharp transitions. The best of these staining methods is cytochrome oxidase, which shows sharp borders at the top and bottom of layer 4A, top and bottom of layer 4C, and the layer 5/6 border. There is also a sharp transition in neuronal cell body size and density at the top and bottom of layer 4Cb. The definition and delineation of all possible layers are constantly being refined, especially by accumulated knowledge of genetic markers of different cell types and connection patterns. In our study, we develop metrics to estimate well known anatomical and functional properties of different layers. We have also discussed layer boundaries that have been ambiguous to date and explained the reason and criteria to resolve them.

      Line 423. The text references Figure 1A in stating that relative thickness and position is crucial, but FIgure 1A does not provide that information and does not explain how it might be determined, or how much of a consensus there is. Also, the text does not consider that the electrode may go through the cortex at oblique angles, and not the same angle in each layer, and the relative thickness may not be a dependable reference.

      There are numerous studies that describe criteria to delineate cortical layers, the referenced article (Balaram & Kaas 2014) is used here as an example. We are not aware of any publication that has systematically compared the relative thickness of layers across the V1 surface of a given animal or across animals. Nevertheless, it is clear from the literature that there is considerable similarity across animals. Accordingly, we cannot know what the source of variability in overall cortical thickness in our samples is, but we do see considerable consistency in the relative thickness of the layers we infer from our measures. We illustrate the differences that we see across penetrations and consider likely causes, such as the extent to which the coverslip pressing down on the cortex might differentially compress the cortex at different locations within the chamber.

      The angle deviation of probe from surface will not change the relative thickness of layers, and the rigid linear probe is unlikely to bend in the cortex.

      Line 433. The term "Coherence" is used, clarify is this is you Cf from Figure 6. The text states, "marked decrease at the bottom of layer 6". Please clarify this, I do not see that in Figure 6.

      Text has been adjusted.

      In Figure 6, the locations of the lines between L1 and 2 do not seem to be consistent with respect to the subtle changes in light blue shading, across all three examples, yet the text on line 436 states that there is a clear transition.

      We feel that the language used accurately reflects what is shown in the figure. While the transition is not sharp, it is clear that there is a transition. This transition is not used to define this laminar border. We have edited the text to clarify that the L1/2 border is better defined based on the change in AP power which shows a sharp transition (Figure 7). 

      The text states that the boundary is also "always clear" from metrics... and sites Figure 5, but I do not see that this boundary is clear for all three examples in Figure 5.

      Text has been adjusted.

      Line 438. The text states that "it is not unusual for unit density to fall to zero below the L1/2 border (Figure 8E)", but surprisingly, the line in Figure 8 E does not even cover the indicated boundary between L1 and L2.

      At this point, the number of statements in the text that do not clearly and precisely correlate to the data in the figures is worrisome, and I think you could lose the confidence of readers at this point.

      We do not see any inconstancy between what is stated in our text and what is noted by the reviewer. The termination of the blue line corresponds to the location where no units are detected. This is the location where “unit density falls to zero”.  In this example, no units resolved through spike sorting until ~100mm beneath the L1/L2 boundary, which is exactly zero unity density (Figure 8E). That there are electrical signals in this region is clear from the AP power change (Figure 8C) which also shows the location of the L1/L2 border.

      Line 448. Text states that the 6A/B border is defined by a sharp boundary in AP power, but Figure 8A "AP power spectrum" does not show a sharp change at the A/B line. There is a peak in this metric in the middle to upper middle of 6A, but nothing so sharp to define a boundary between distinct layers, at least for penetration A2.

      Text has been adjusted.

      In Figure 8, the layer labels are not clear, whereas they are reasonably clear in the other figures.

      This is a technical problem regarding vector graphics that were not properly converted in PDF generation. We will upload each high-quality vector graphics when we finalize the version of record.

      The text emphasizes differences in L4B and L4C with respect to average power and coherence, but the transition seems a bit gradual from layer 3B to 4C in some examples in Figure 6. And in Figure 5, A3, there doesn't appear to be any particular transition along the line between 4B and 4C.

      In this guide section, we pointed out early that some metrics are good for some boundaries and variation exists between penetrations. We’ve expanded text emphasizing the importance of timing differences in DP/P for differentiating sublayers in L4. Lastly, in case of several unresolvable boundaries given all the metrics, the prior knowledge of relative thickness should be used.

      Line 466 provides prescriptions in absolute linear distances, but this is unwise given that cortex may be crossed at oblique angles by electrodes, particularly for parts of V1 that are not on the surface of the brain. Other parts of the text have emphasized relative measurements.

      Text has been changed using relative measurements.

      Line 507. The text says 9C and 4A are a good match, but the match does not look that good (4A has substantial dips at 0.5 and 0.75, and substantial peaks), and there is no quantification of fit. The error bars on 9C do not help show the variability across penetrations, they appear to be SEM, which shows that error bars get smaller as you average more data. It would seem more important to understand what is the variance in the density from one penetration to the next compared to the variance in density across layers.

      We have replaced “good match” with “roughly corresponds”. We note that we do not use unit density as a metric for identification of laminar borders and instead show that the expected locations of layers with higher neuronal density correspond to the locations where there are similar changes in unit density. It should be noted that Figure 9C is an average across many penetrations so should not be expected to show transitions that are as sharp in individual penetrations. Because of the figure permission issue, we have removed Figure 4A, and changed the text accordingly.

      Figure 9C-F show a lot of variability in the individual curves (dim gray lines) compared to the overall average. Does this show that these metrics are not reliable indicators at the level of single penetration, but show some trends across larger averages?

      In the beginning of the guide, we emphasized that all metrics should be combined for individual penetration, because some metrics are only reliable for delineating certain layer boundaries and the quality of data for the various measures varies between penetrations. The penetration average serves the same purpose explained in the previous question as an indicator that our layer delineation was not far off.

      The discussion mentions improvements in layer identification made here. Did this work check the assignments for these penetration against assignments made based on some form of ground truth? Previous methods would advance electrodes steadily, and make lesions, and carry out histology. Is there any way to tell how this method would compare to that?

      Even electrolytic lesions do not necessarily reveal ground truth and can be quite misleading. And their resolution is limited by lesion size. Lesions are typically variable in size, asymmetric and have variable shape and position relative to the location of the electrode tip, likely affected by the quality and location of electrical grounding and variations in current flow due to locations of blood vessels. A review of the published literature with electrode lesions shows that electrophysiological transitions are likely a far more accurate indicator of recording locations than post-mortem histology from electrolytic lesions. It is extremely rare for the locations of lesions to be precisely aligned to expected laminar transitions. See for example Chatterjee et al (Nature 2004). Also see several manuscripts from the Shapley lab. The lone rare exception of which we are aware is Blasdel and Fitzpatrick1984 in which consistently small and round lesions were produced and even these would be too large (~100 microns) to accurately identify layers if it were not for the fact that the electrode penetrations were very long and tangential to the cortical layers. 

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      - The authors say (lines 360-362) that "Assuming spikes of a neuron spread to at least two adjacent recording channels, then the coherence between the two channels would be directly proportional to number of spikes, independent of spike amplitude." Has this been demonstrated? Very large amplitude spikes should show up on more channels than small amplitude spikes. Do waveform amplitudes and unit densities from the spike waveform analyses show consistent relationships to the power and/or coherence distributions over depth across penetrations?

      This part of the manuscript is providing a theoretical rational for what might be expected to affect the measures that we have derived. That is why we begin by stating that we are making an assumption. The answers to the reviewer’s questions are not known and have not been demonstrated. By beginning with this theoretical preface, we can point to cases where the data match these expectations as well as other cases where the data differ from the theoretical expectations.

      Coherence, by definition, is a normalized metric that is insensitive to amplitude. Spike amplitude mainly depends on how close the signal source is to electrode, and spike spread mainly depends on cell body size and shape given the same distance to electrode. Therefore, a very large spike amplitude could stem from a very close small cell to electrode, but would result in a small spike spread, especially axonal spikes (Figure 4B, red spike). Spike amplitudes on average are higher in L4C which matches the expectation that higher cell density would result, on average, closer cell body to electrode (Figure S4A). Nonetheless, the high-density small cell bodies in L4C result in a small spike spread (Figure 9D).

      - I suggest clarifying what is defined as the baseline window for the ΔP/P measure - is it the entire 10-150 ms response window used for the power spectrum analysis?

      Text adjustments are made in the Methods where the time windows are defined at the beginning of the CSD section. Only temporal change metrics (ΔCSD and ΔP/P) use the baseline window ([-40, 10]ms). The other two spectrum metrics (Power and Coherence) use the response window ([10, 150]ms).

      - Firing rate differs by cell type and, on average, differs by layer in V1. Many layer 2/3 neurons, for example, have low maximum firing rates when driven with optimized achromatic grating stimuli. To the extent that the generative models explaining the sources of power and coherence signals rely on the assumption that firing rates are matched across cortical depth, these models may be inaccurate. This assumption is declared only subtly, and late in the paper, but it is relevant to earlier claims.

      Text adjustments are made to explicitly describe the possibility that uneven depth profile of firing rate could counteract the depth profile of neuron density, resulting distorted or even a flat depth profile of power/coherence that deviates far from the depth profile of neuron density. In a newly added Figure S4, we first show the average firing rate profile during a set of stimuli (uniform color, static/drifting, achromatic/chromatic gratings), then specifically the PSTHs of the same stimuli shown in this study. It can be seen that layers receiving direct LGN inputs tend to fire at a higher rate (L4C, L6A). Firing rates in the PSTHs either roughly match across layers or are much higher in the densely packed layers. Therefore, the depth profile of firing rate contributes to rather than counteracting that of neuron density, enhancing the utility of the power/coherence profile for identification of correct layer boundaries.

      - Given the acute preparation used for recordings, I wonder whether tissue is available for histological evaluation. Although the layers identified are generally appropriate in relative size, it would be particularly compelling if the authors could demonstrate that the fraction of the cortical thickness occupied by each layer corresponded to the proportion occupied by that layer along the probe trajectory in histological sections. This would lend strength to the claim that these analyses can be used to identify layers in the absence of histology. Furthermore, variations in apparent cortical thickness could arise from different degrees of deviation from surface normal approach angles, which might be apparent by evaluation of histological material. I would add that variation in thickness on the scale shown in Fig. S4 is more likely to have an explanation of this kind.

      To serve other purposes unrelated to this study (identification of CO blobs), we cut the postmortem tissue in horizontal slices, so the histological comparison suggested cannot be made. The cortical thickness measured in this study had been affected not only by the angle deviation from the surface normal but also the swelling and compression of cortex. Nevertheless, evaluating the absolute thickness of cortex is not the main purpose of this study.

      Text and figure suggestions:

      - Fig 1A has been modified from Balaram & Kaas (2014) to revert to the Brodmann nomenclature scheme they argue against using in that paper; I wonder if they would object to this modification without explanation. Related, in the main text the authors initially refer to layers using Brodmann's labels with a secondary scheme (Hassler's) in parentheses and later drop the parenthetical labels; these conventions are not described or explained. Readers less familiar with the multiple nomenclature schemes for monkey V1 layers might be confused by the multiple labels without context, and could benefit from a brief description of the convention the authors have adopted.

      Throughout our article, we only used Brodmann’s naming convention because it has historically been adopted for old world monkey which we use in our study, whereas Hassler’s naming convention is more commonly used for new world monkey. Different naming conventions do not change our result, and it is out of scope for our study to discuss which nomenclature is more appropriate.

      - References to "dominate eye" throughout the text and figure legends should be replaced with "dominant eye."

      It has been changed throughout the article.

      - It is a bit odd to duplicate the same example in Fig. 2C and 2E. Perhaps a unique example would be a better use of the space.

      Here we first demonstrate the filtering effect, then compare profiles across different penetrations. The same example bridges the transition allowing side-by-side comparison.

      - The legend for Fig. 3 might be clearer if it simply listed the stimulus transitions for each column left to right, i.e. "black to white (non-dominant eye), white to black (non-dominant eye), black to white (dominant eye), ..."

      We feel that the icons are helpful. Here we want to show the stimulus colors directly to readers.

      - The misalignment between Fig. 4A vs. 4B-F, combined with the very small font size of the layer labels in Fig. 4B-F, make the visual comparison difficult. In Figs. 7 and 8, layer labels (and most labels in general) are much too small and/or low resolution to read easily. Overall, I would recommend increasing font size of labels in figures throughout the paper.

      The reused figure in Figure 4A is removed due to permission issue. Font sizes are adjusted.

      - Line 591 "using of high-density probes" should be "using high-density probes"

      Text has been changed accordingly

    1. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This interesting paper examines the earliest steps in progesterone-induced frog oocyte maturation, an example of non-genomic steroid hormone signaling that has been studied for decades but is still very incompletely understood. In fish and frog oocytes it seems clear that mPR proteins are involved, but exactly how they relay signals is less clear. In human sperm, the lipid hydrolase ABHD2 has been identified as a receptor for progesterone, and so the authors here examine whether ABHD2 might contribute to progesterone-induced oocyte maturation as well. The main results are:

      (1) Knocking down ABHD2 makes oocytes less responsive to progesterone, and ectopically expressing ABHD2.S (but not the shorter ABHD2.L gene product) partially rescues responsiveness. The rescue depends upon the presence of critical residues in the protein's conserved lipid hydrolase domain, but not upon the presence of critical residues in its acyltransferase domain.

      (2) Treatment of oocytes with progesterone causes a decrease in sphingolipid and glycerophospholipid content within 5 min. This is accompanied by an increase in LPA content and arachidonic acid metabolites. These species may contribute to signaling through GPCRs. Perhaps surprisingly, there was no detectable increase in sphingosine-1-phosphate, which might have been expected given the apparent substantial hydrolysis of sphingolipids. The authors speculate that S1P is formed and contributes to signaling but diffuses away.

      (3) Pharmacological inhibitors of lipid-metabolizing enzymes support, for the most part, the inferences from the lipidomics studies, although there are some puzzling findings. The puzzling findings may be due to uncertainty about whether the inhbitors are working as advertised.

      (4) Pharmacological inhibitors of G-protein signaling support a role for G-proteins and GPCRs in this signaling, although again there are some puzzling findings.

      (5) Reticulocyte expression supports the idea that mPRβ and ABHD2 function together to generate a progesterone-regulated PLA2 activity.

      (6) Knocking down or inhibiting ABHD2 inhibited progesterone-induced mPRβ internalization, and knocking down ABHD2 inhibited SNAP25∆20-induced maturation.

      Strengths:<br /> All in all, this could be a very interesting paper and a nice contribution. The data add a lot to our understanding of the process, and, given how ubiquitous mPR and AdipoQ receptor signaling appear to be, something like this may be happening in many other physiological contexts.

      Weaknesses:

      I have several suggestions for how to make the main points more convincing.

      Main criticisms:

      (1) The ABHD2 knockdown and rescue, presented in Fig 1, is one of the most important findings. It can and should be presented in more detail to allow the reader to understand the experiments better. E.g.: the antisense oligos hybridize to both ABHD2.S and ABHD2.L, and they knock down both (ectopically expressed) proteins. Do they hybridize to either or both of the rescue constructs? If so, wouldn't you expect that both rescue constructs would rescue the phenotype, since they both should sequester the AS oligo? Maybe I'm missing something here.

      In addition, it is critical to know whether the partial rescue (Fig 1E, I, and K) is accomplished by expressing reasonable levels of the ABHD2 protein, or only by greatly overexpressing the protein. The author's antibodies do not appear to be sensitive enough to detect the endogenous levels of ABHD2.S or .L, but they do detect the overexpressed proteins (Fig 1D). The authors could thus start by microinjecting enough of the rescue mRNAs to get detectable protein levels, and then titer down, assessing how low one can go and still get rescue. And/or compare the mRNA levels achieved with the rescue construct to the endogenous mRNAs.

      Finally, please make it clear what is meant by n = 7 or n = 3 for these experiments. Does n = 7 mean 7 independently lysed oocytes from the same frog? Or 7 groups of, say, 10 oocytes from the same frog? Or different frogs on different days? I could not tell from the figure legends, the methods, or the supplementary methods. Ideally one wants to be sure that the knockdown and rescue can be demonstrated in different batches of oocytes, and that the experimental variability is substantially smaller than the effect size.

      (2) The lipidomics results should be presented more clearly. First, please drop the heat map presentations (Fig 2A-C) and instead show individual time course results, like those shown in Fig 2E, which make it easy to see the magnitude of the change and the experiment-to-experiment variability. As it stands, the lipidomics data really cannot be critically assessed.

      [Even as heat map data go, panels A-C are hard to understand. The labels are too small, especially on the heat map on the right side of panel B. And the 25 rows in panel C are not defined (the legend makes me think the panel is data from 10 individual oocytes, so are the 25 rows 25 metabolites? If so, are the individual oocyte data being collapsed into an average? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of assessing individual oocytes?) And those readers with red-green colorblindness (8% of men) will not be able to tell an increase from a decrease. But please don't bother improving the heat maps; they should just be replaced with more-informative bar graphs or scatter plots.]

      (3) The reticulocyte lysate co-expression data are quite important, and are both intriguing and puzzling. My impression had been that to express functional membrane proteins, one needed to add some membrane source, like microsomes, to the standard kits. Yet it seems like co-expression of mPR and ABHD2 proteins in a standard kit is sufficient to yield progesterone-regulated PLA2 activity. I could be wrong here-I'm not a protein expression expert-but I was surprised by this result, and I think it is critical that the authors make absolutely certain that it is correct. Do you get much greater activities if microsomes are added? Are the specific activities of the putative mPR-ABHD2 complexes reasonable?

      Comments on revisions:

      The authors have satisfied my concerns with their response letter and revisions.

    1. Consolidated peer review report (2 November 2023)

      GENERAL ASSESSMENT

      He et al. explore the structure and mechanisms of human mitochondrial RNA splicing 2 protein (MRS2). MRS2 is a mitochondrial ion channel that was thought to form Mg2+-selective channels based on its homology to the CorA family of prokaryotic Mg2+ channels. Here, the authors used an innovative biochemical strategy to express MRS2 and perform single particle reconstructions of MRS2 in the absence and presence of key divalent cations. They obtained high resolution reconstructions of pentameric MRS2 and identified the divalent binding sites, some of which appear to be different from the prokaryotic counterparts. In addition, they showed that the structures of MRS2 appear to be more stable than CorA, exhibiting consistent features across different conditions, including in the presence of EDTA, Mg2+, and Ca2+. They further investigated electrophysiological characteristics of a mutant MRS2 channel and propose that it acts like a Ca2+-regulated, cation-selective, Mg2+-permeable channel, in contrast to the better characterized CorA channel, which is Mg2+-regulated and has a higher selectivity for Mg2+. This is an important study with interesting structural observations and an innovative hypothesis on function. We suggest that a more careful interpretation of the functional data and their relevance to MRS2 function in mitochondria would increase the overall value of the work.

      RECOMMENDATIONS

      Essential revisions:

      1. Because R332 lines the channel pore, one would predict that neutralization of its positive charge would have an effect on ion permeation characteristics – either single channel conductance or relative permeabilities of different ions. Thus, it is unclear whether ion selectivity of the R332S mutation (probed in, for example, Fig. 4) is representative of WT MRS2. Ideally, selectivity would have been measured on the WT channel. If the authors performed similar experiments with R332D (if it expresses), would the observations be at least qualitatively similar? Similarly, if the corresponding site in TmCorA (S) is mutated to R, would it behave like MRS2? Such data would increase confidence in the conclusions regarding selectivity. In addition, measuring relative permeabilities of ions would be significantly more informative than current magnitudes. If measurement of relative permeabilities is not feasible due to low current amplitudes, it would be important for the authors to tone down their conclusions on selectivity. A related technical consideration: from the description of the experiments, summarized in the bar graph in Fig. 4a (right), it’s not clear which/how many measurements were done on the same oocyte. It might be useful to mention that because oocyte-to-oocyte variability is a very important factor which can sometimes obfuscate observations and their interpretation. For all electrophysiological observations, it would be very useful to clarify whether the error bars are standard deviations (sd) or standard errors of the mean (sem). Because the replicates for the different measurements are highly variable – ranging between 6 and 34 – it might be more appropriate to compare sd instead of sem.

      2. Recordings to examine currents at more hyperpolarizing potentials are essential for drawing conclusions about the function of MRS2 in mitochondria. The voltage at which the oocytes are clamped in all electrophysiological measurements (-60 mV) might be very different from the voltage at which MRS2 operates in a native environment. If MRS2 is susceptible to voltage-dependent block by the permeant divalents (Ca2+/Mg2+), their presence could influence currents observed at hyperpolarized potentials.

      3. P4, “In the divalent-free MRS2EDTA structure, discernible ion densities are absent in the central pore.” Because the map was generated by imposing C5 symmetry during processing (with the pore located at the central symmetry axis) and the buffer contained NaCl (which is known to permeate MRS2), we would expect the maps to show some density for ions in addition to noise generated during data processing. Although these maps were not available for this review, inspection of related maps for MRS2 (EMDB-41628 and EMDB-35631) indeed show density within the pore in the presence of NaCl and EDTA. Also, the symmetrical diamond-shaped density (either from ions or noise) shown in Extended Data Fig. 5 has the characteristics of being enhanced during processing with imposed C5 symmetry. It would be important for the authors to clarify how they drew conclusions about the absence or presence of ion densities along the pore in the different maps they refined. Showing density at equivalent positions within the pore for their different structures would be a nice addition to Ext. Data Fig. 5.

      4. The currents shown in recordings from oocytes were at negative voltages and were elicited by replacement of NMDG with smaller monovalent or divalent cations. For these currents to be rigorously attributed to MSR2, it would have been important to perform the experiments in parallel with control oocytes not expressing the protein (either injected with water or uninjected). However, we appreciate that this would require considerable effort to address in retrospect. One solution would be for the authors to identify a few key conditions, perhaps those shown in Fig. 3, and repeat them with appropriate controls to allow comparison of the data in a bar chart or related graph. The data shown in Fig. 4a for the WT protein could be considered a reasonable control in such experiments, so perhaps the authors could point this out to the reader?

      Optional suggestions:

      1.  In several of the 2D class averages, particularly in Extended Fig. 1a, MRS2 seems to be located off-center, almost at the edge of the micelle. With a relatively small transmembrane core, it is possible that MRS2 is “freely diffusing” in the micelle, in which the lateral pressure that the transmembrane domains are subject to is quite different from the scenario where the protein is more at the micelle center. Would this observation have any bearing on the function/reconstruction of MRS2, particularly given that limited structural changes are observed in the transmembrane segments between divalent free and with-divalent conditions? The 2D classes are likely from an early stage of reconstruction. It might be worthwhile to show 2D classes of the final set of particles used for the reconstruction.

      2.  It is interesting that, in the reconstructions with Ca2+, the peripheral domains become more heterogenous than in Mg2+ or EDTA (Extended Fig. 1). How does this region of the map compare with the location of divalent site 3?

      3.  Would Ca2+ (but not Mg2+) binding make this region more dynamic and could that have any mechanistic significance?

      4.  Does the Ca2+ reconstruction (Extended Fig. 1) have a preferred orientation? The elevation/azimuth plots show an asymmetry (along the elevation) which might have appeared from some kind of bias. It is not clear if the authors have tried to address this, say by rebalancing 2D classes. 3D FSC curves might help test/address this bias.

      5.  While the structural difference between MRS2 and TmCorA at the level of the a/b domain is clear in Extended Fig. 3, it may be worthwhile to compare them in the context of the pentamer. Particularly, does the difference alter the interfaces? Are the surface electrostatic properties of the domain similar? Considering that these domains mediate divalent regulation, comparison of these properties might help readers better appreciate similarities/differences in their structural attributes.

      6.  With respect to Fig. 1D, do the authors observe any side portals for ion entry/exit into the pore? The soluble domains of MRS2 seems to form a highly electronegative cavity for ion translocation. Are there any single channel conductance measurements of MRS2 that would argue for the importance of these electronegative surfaces?

      7.  It doesn’t appear that any approximations of the relative affinity of MRS2 for Mg2+/Ca2+ (e.g. EC50 measurements) are available at this point. It might therefore have been better for the Mg2+ reconstructions to include EGTA in the buffers to sequester Ca2+, given that conventional filter papers used during plunge-freezing are fabricated with ash containing a lot of Ca2+/Zn2+. This would have helped to at least partially address questions about whether the observed divalent densities truly correspond to the ions used during cryoEM sample preparation.If the authors are not able to do Mg2+ reconstructions with EGTA in the buffer, it would be of benefit to at least comment on this issue in the discussion of the results.

      8.  What is the orientation of MRS2 when it is in the plasma membrane? If the orientation is such that the regulatory domains face the cytosol, inside-out patches would be more informative, appropriate and reliable for addressing the mechanistic questions that the authors are exploring. The authors should comment on whether or not the orientation is known. 

      9.  P4, “additional unique Mg2+ binding site (site3)”. In Fig. 2, it would be beneficial to label and specify the distances between the binding residues and the ions, along with elucidating the nature of the interactions they form.

      10.  P9, in the discussion about structural dynamics. Drawing conclusions about the rigidity of MRS2's structure may be premature at this stage. Since the MRS2 structures are pentameric, the unique feature of asymmetrical particles can potentially be averaged by the features of symmetrical particles, particularly when a substantial number of symmetrical particles are present. This can pose a challenge in isolating and distinguishing asymmetrical structure from the overall dataset, even when applying C1 symmetry during the data processing. It would be helpful to employ techniques such as 3D Variability Analysis from CryoSPARC or subtracting the density of a monomer for focused 3D classification that might provide more insights into the structural dynamics of MRS2.

      REVIEWING TEAM

      Reviewed by:

      Sandipan Chowdhury, Assistant Professor, University of Iowa: single-particle EM, electrophysiology, membrane transport biophysics

      Nanami Senoo, Postdoctoral Fellow, Johns Hopkins University: mitochondrial transport

      Xiaofeng Tan, Research Fellow, NINDS, NIH, USA: structural biology, cryo-EM, ion channel structure and mechanisms

      Curated by:

      Merritt Maduke, Associate Professor, Stanford University School of Medicine, USA

    2. Authors’ Response (6 May 2024)

      GENERAL ASSESSMENT

      He et al. explore the structure and mechanisms of human mitochondrial RNA splicing 2 protein (MRS2). MRS2 is a mitochondrial ion channel that was thought to form Mg2+-selective channels based on its homology to the CorA family of prokaryotic Mg2+ channels. Here, the authors used an innovative biochemical strategy to express MRS2 and perform single particle reconstructions of MRS2 in the absence and presence of key divalent cations. They obtained high resolution reconstructions of pentameric MRS2 and identified the divalent binding sites, some of which appear to be different from the prokaryotic counterparts. In addition, they showed that the structures of MRS2 appear to be more stable than CorA, exhibiting consistent features across different conditions, including in the presence of EDTA, Mg2+, and Ca2+. They further investigated electrophysiological characteristics of a mutant MRS2 channel and propose that it acts like a Ca2+-regulated, cation-selective, Mg2+-permeable channel, in contrast to the better characterized CorA channel, which is Mg2+-regulated and has a higher selectivity for Mg2+. This is an important study with interesting structural observations and an innovative hypothesis on function. We suggest that a more careful interpretation of the functional data and their relevance to MRS2 function in mitochondria would increase the overall value of the work.

      We would like to thank the colleagues from Biophysics Colab for reviewing our manuscript. We have revised our initial manuscript incorporating these recommendations and the reviewers’ comments from the publishing journal. We will also acknowledge Biophysics Colab in the published version of this work.

      RECOMMENDATIONS

      Essential revisions:

      1.    Because R332 lines the channel pore, one would predict that neutralization of its positive charge would have an effect on ion permeation characteristics – either single channel conductance or relative permeabilities of different ions. Thus, it is unclear whether ion selectivity of the R332S mutation (probed in, for example, Fig. 4) is representative of WT MRS2. Ideally, selectivity would have been measured on the WT channel. If the authors performed similar experiments with R332D (if it expresses), would the observations be at least qualitatively similar?

      This is an excellent point. Indeed, it is possible that the R332S mutation affects the ion selectivity of MRS2. To test this, we have examined the ion permeation properties of the wild-type channel, MRS2WT. While MRS2WT conducted no detectable Mg2+ currents, its Na+ currents could be detected as shown in the original Figure 4a. MRS2WT still showed no anomalous mole fraction effect (AMFE), as the Na+ currents were unaffected by 100-µM Mg2+ (see new Extended Data Fig. 7a in the revised manuscript). Therefore, the lack of divalent cation selectivity of MRS2 was not artificially caused by the R332S background. We are in the process of mutating R332 to a wide range of other amino acids to better link the side-chain chemistry to MRS2 function. This will be an important future direction.

      Similarly, if the corresponding site in TmCorA (S) is mutated to R, would it behave like MRS2? Such data would increase confidence in the conclusions regarding selectivity. In addition, measuring relative permeabilities of ions would be significantly more informative than current magnitudes. If measurement of relative permeabilities is not feasible due to low current amplitudes, it would be important for the authors to tone down their conclusions on selectivity.

      Our results above have now demonstrated that R332 does not contribute to the ion selectivity of MRS2. Therefore, it is unlikely that mutating the corresponding residue of R332 in TmCorA (S284) to Arg would create profound effects on the ion selectivity of CorA. It should also be noted that the selectivity filter of CorA has been identified as the ‘GMN’ motif, which is far away from S284. However, we agree that S284R likely reduces the CorA conductance, and plan to test this mutant in future work.

      We are unable to measure the permeability ratio, as we have not established patch-clamp recordings of MRS2. This is certainly an important future direction. However, the lack of anomalous mole fraction effect (AMFE) indicates that MRS2 lacks the molecular property that confers divalent cation selectivity to CorA, and accordingly it is reasonable to conclude that MRS2 is a non-selective cation channel.

      A related technical consideration: from the description of the experiments, summarized in the bar graph in Fig. 4a (right), it’s not clear which/how many measurements were done on the same oocyte. It might be useful to mention that because oocyte-to-oocyte variability is a very important factor which can sometimes obfuscate observations and their interpretation. For all electrophysiological observations, it would be very useful to clarify whether the error bars are standard deviations (sd) or standard errors of the mean (sem). Because the replicates for the different measurements are highly variable – ranging between 6 and 34 – it might be more appropriate to compare sd instead of sem.

      Recordings from the same oocyte would only be counted as a single data point. We appreciate the reviewer's concern about using SD vs. SEM. However, we are comparing drastic differences. For example, we can detect Mg2+ currents with the R332S mutation but not with MRS2WT, and we can see AMFE in CorA but not in MRS2. These major effects are unlikely affected by whether we present the data with SEM or SD.

      2.    Recordings to examine currents at more hyperpolarizing potentials are essential for drawing conclusions about the function of MRS2 in mitochondria. The voltage at which the oocytes are clamped in all electrophysiological measurements (-60 mV) might be very different from the voltage at which MRS2 operates in a native environment. If MRS2 is susceptible to voltage-dependent block by the permeant divalents (Ca2+/Mg2+), their presence could influence currents observed at hyperpolarized potentials.

      We have now recorded MRS2WT at -120 mV. No Mg2+ currents or AMFE were observed, as in our recordings at -60 mV.

      3.    P4, “In the divalent-free MRS2EDTA structure, discernible ion densities are absent in the central pore.” Because the map was generated by imposing C5 symmetry during processing (with the pore located at the central symmetry axis) and the buffer contained NaCl (which is known to permeate MRS2), we would expect the maps to show some density for ions in addition to noise generated during data processing. Although these maps were not available for this review, inspection of related maps for MRS2 (EMDB-41628 and EMDB-35631) indeed show density within the pore in the presence of NaCl and EDTA. Also, the symmetrical diamond-shaped density (either from ions or noise) shown in Extended Data Fig. 5 has the characteristics of being enhanced during processing with imposed C5 symmetry. It would be important for the authors to clarify how they drew conclusions about the absence or presence of ion densities along the pore in the different maps they refined. Showing density at equivalent positions within the pore for their different structures would be a nice addition to Ext. Data Fig. 5.

      This is an excellent point. Assignment of ions in cryo-EM density maps is indeed challenging because of noise, especially at the symmetry axis. We have carefully examined these densities and the chemical environment nearby to assign these ions. We have now included density maps at these equivalent positions in the revised manuscript.

      4.    The currents shown in recordings from oocytes were at negative voltages and were elicited by replacement of NMDG with smaller monovalent or divalent cations. For these currents to be rigorously attributed to MSR2, it would have been important to perform the experiments in parallel with control oocytes not expressing the protein (either injected with water or uninjected). However, we appreciate that this would require considerable effort to address in retrospect. One solution would be for the authors to identify a few key conditions, perhaps those shown in Fig. 3, and repeat them with appropriate controls to allow comparison of the data in a bar chart or related graph. The data shown in Fig. 4a for the WT protein could be considered a reasonable control in such experiments, so perhaps the authors could point this out to the reader?

      In the new Extended Data Fig. 7a in the revised manuscript, we provided data showing that uninjected oocytes, or oocytes expressing the mitochondrial calcium uniporter, showed no Mg2+ currents, suggesting that the observed Mg2+ currents were mediated by MRS2. Additionally, we could inhibit these currents with cobalt hexammine (Fig. 3c-d), or drastically reduce the currents with MRS2 mutations (Fig. 5a-b). These observations all support the conclusion that we are observing MRS2 currents.

      Optional suggestions:

      1.    In several of the 2D class averages, particularly in Extended Fig. 1a, MRS2 seems to be located off-center, almost at the edge of the micelle. With a relatively small transmembrane core, it is possible that MRS2 is “freely diffusing” in the micelle, in which the lateral pressure that the transmembrane domains are subject to is quite different from the scenario where the protein is more at the micelle center. Would this observation have any bearing on the function/reconstruction of MRS2, particularly given that limited structural changes are observed in the transmembrane segments between divalent free and with-divalent conditions? The 2D classes are likely from an early stage of reconstruction. It might be worthwhile to show 2D classes of the final set of particles used for the reconstruction.

      This is an interesting point. It may influence the conformations of channels that are very sensitive to their surrounding environments. For MRS2, we do not think that the off-center location in detergent micelles significantly changes its structure. We have later also determined the cryo-EM structure of MRS2 in lipid nanodiscs, which is identical to the structure in detergents.

      2.    It is interesting that, in the reconstructions with Ca2+, the peripheral domains become more heterogenous than in Mg2+ or EDTA (Extended Fig. 1). How does this region of the map compare with the location of divalent site 3?

      The divalent site 3 is not located within the peripheral domains. The cryo-EM densities, as shown in Extended Data Fig. 5, are well defined near site 3 in both Ca2+ and Mg2+ conditions.

      3.    Would Ca2+ (but not Mg2+) binding make this region more dynamic and could that have any mechanistic significance?

      This is a very interesting point. We did not see apparent structural changes in Ca2+ vs Mg2+ conditions and hypothesize that Ca2+ regulation may arise from differences in structural dynamics. We have been using other biophysical techniques such as high-speed atomic force microscopy to investigate these differences.

      4.    Does the Ca2+ reconstruction (Extended Fig. 1) have a preferred orientation? The elevation/azimuth plots show an asymmetry (along the elevation) which might have appeared from some kind of bias. It is not clear if the authors have tried to address this, say by rebalancing 2D classes. 3D FSC curves might help test/address this bias.

      In general, particles in Ca2+ conditions are more prone to aggregation and appear to have some degrees of preferred orientation.

      5.    While the structural difference between MRS2 and TmCorA at the level of the a/b _domain is clear in Extended Fig. 3, it may be worthwhile to compare them in the context of the pentamer. Particularly, does the difference alter the interfaces? Are the surface electrostatic properties of the domain similar? Considering that these domains mediate divalent regulation, comparison of these properties might help readers better appreciate similarities/differences in their structural attributes.

      These are very good points to add to structural comparison between MRS2 and TmCorA.

      6.    With respect to Fig. 1D, do the authors observe any side portals for ion entry/exit into the pore? The soluble domains of MRS2 seems to form a highly electronegative cavity for ion translocation. Are there any single channel conductance measurements of MRS2 that would argue for the importance of these electronegative surfaces?

      No apparent side portals for ion entry were observed. We have not done single-channel recordings yet. Since CorA single-channel recordings have not been reported to date, we speculate that MRS2/CorA might be too slow to produce detectable single-channel currents.

      7.    It doesn’t appear that any approximations of the relative affinity of MRS2 for Mg2+/Ca2+ (e.g. EC50 measurements) are available at this point. It might therefore have been better for the Mg2+ reconstructions to include EGTA in the buffers to sequester Ca2+, given that conventional filter papers used during plunge-freezing are fabricated with ash containing a lot of Ca2+/Zn2+. This would have helped to at least partially address questions about whether the observed divalent densities truly correspond to the ions used during cryoEM sample preparation.If the authors are not able to do Mg2+ reconstructions with EGTA in the buffer, it would be of benefit to at least comment on this issue in the discussion of the results.

      This is a very good control experiment to validate Mg2+ binding. Given that the MRS2 structure in 10 mM EDTA (without added divalent ions) is essentially the same as that in high Mg2+ or Ca2+, we would expect that MRS2 structures in Mg2+ & EGTA conditions are likely the same as in other conditions.

      8.    What is the orientation of MRS2 when it is in the plasma membrane? If the orientation is such that the regulatory domains face the cytosol, inside-out patches would be more informative, appropriate and reliable for addressing the mechanistic questions that the authors are exploring. The authors should comment on whether or not the orientation is known.

      The MRS2 orientation is oocyte membranes is currently unknown. It will be interesting to determine the orientation in the future.

      9.    P4, “additional unique Mg2+ binding site (site3)”. In Fig. 2, it would be beneficial to label and specify the distances between the binding residues and the ions, along with elucidating the nature of the interactions they form.

      This is a good point. However, we do not want to overinterpret the structure to specify how the ion is coordinated by side-chain atoms because of the limited resolution.

      10. P9, in the discussion about structural dynamics. Drawing conclusions about the rigidity of MRS2's structure may be premature at this stage. Since the MRS2 structures are pentameric, the unique feature of asymmetrical particles can potentially be averaged by the features of symmetrical particles, particularly when a substantial number of symmetrical particles are present. This can pose a challenge in isolating and distinguishing asymmetrical structure from the overall dataset, even when applying C1 symmetry during the data processing. It would be helpful to employ techniques such as 3D Variability Analysis from CryoSPARC or subtracting the density of a monomer for focused 3D classification that might provide more insights into the structural dynamics of MRS2.

      To better investigate the structural dynamics of MRS2, we plan to apply more appropriate biophysical methods such as high-speed atomic force microscopy.

      (This is a response to peer review conducted by Biophysics Colab on version 1 of this preprint.)

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Response to Editor and Reviewer Comments:

      Many thanks to the editor and reviewers for the thoughtful assessment of our manuscript “Commissureless acts as a substrate adapter in a conserved Nedd4 E3 ubiquitin ligase pathway to promote axon growth across the midline.” Thank you also for the positive comments about the quality of our writing, and for deeming our study rigorous and thorough. We are very pleased that, overall, you believe our combination of genetic and biochemical approaches offers useful insight into the mechanism of Robo regulation at the Drosophila embryonic midline and effectively reconciles the contradictory findings of previous studies done in this field.

      Response to the previous Public Reviews:

      We appreciate the concerns expressed by the reviewers and the suggestions of areas in which the study and manuscript could be improved. The reviewer suggestions were very helpful as we revised our manuscript in order to strengthen our mechanistic understanding of Robo downregulation and better characterize the role Nedd4 plays in this process. We strongly agree with Reviewer 1 that our insight into the mechanism of Robo downregulation via Comm would be much stronger had we not solely relied on overexpression experiments to investigate the effects of PY motif mutations on Comm function. While it is outside the scope of this particular paper, we appreciate your suggestion to use gene editing to investigate the role of PY motif mutation on endogenous comm function and believe this would be a useful question to address in future papers. In addition to this concern, both reviewers identified additional opportunities to strengthen the paper. We have done our best to incorporate reviewer suggestions and will outline how we addressed the following four areas that were identified by both reviewers as areas where additional data could strengthen our conclusions:

      (1) Additional experiments to examine Comm and Robo1 localization in vivo: Characterizing Robo localization in vivo when co-expressed with PY-mutant Comm variants.

      (2) Testing biochemical interactions in embryonic protein extracts: Examining the biochemical interaction between Robo, Comm, and Nedd4 in a more biologically relevant context than cell culture.

      (3) Additional genetic interaction experiments: A) Investigating whether Nedd4 overexpression enhances the Comm G.O.F phenotype of enhanced ectopic crossing. B) Testing for additional genetic interactions with comm.

      (4) Editing the text of the manuscript for clarity.

      (1) Characterizing Robo localization in vivo when co-expressed with Comm variants.

      In the first version of our manuscript, we characterized the localization of wild-type and PY mutant Comm variants expressed in apterous neurons (Figure 5C), but did not examine how these variants of Comm affected localization of their cargo Robo1. To address this gap, we co-expressed 10X UAS Comm-myc (WT, 1PY, 2PY) with 10X UAS Robo-HA under the ap gal4 driver, visualized Comm and Robo by immunostaining for Myc and HA, and measured colocalization between Comm and Robo. We found that Robo colocalizes equally with all comm variants and that its expression pattern mimics that of the Comm variant with which it is expressed. We observe that Robo is restricted to cell bodies when overexpressed with WT Comm but “leaks out” into axons when co-expressed with Comm 1PY or 2PY. This finding suggests that PY motifs are not only required for effective Comm localization to the appropriate cellular areas, but also for proper routing of its cargo, Robo1. These new data are presented in a new supplemental figure: Figure S3.

      (2) Examining the biochemical interaction between Robo, Comm, and Nedd4 in vivo.

      To examine biochemical interaction between Comm, Robo, and Nedd4 in a more biologically relevant context, we performed immunoprecipitations in fly embryonic lysate prepared from the following categories: WT, elav gal4: 5X UAS Comm-myc WT, and elav gal4: 5X UAS Comm-myc WT + 10X UAS Nedd4-HA. We performed immunoprecipitation for myc (Comm), and blotted for endogenous Robo, Myc (Comm), and HA (Nedd4). Corroborating our results in cell culture (Figure 7 A-C), we were able to pull down a three-protein complex consisting of Comm, Nedd4 and Robo in embryonic fly tissue. These new data are presented in a new supplemental figure: Figure S8.

      (3) Investigating additional genetic interactions between Comm and Nedd4.

      A) In our submitted manuscript, we demonstrated that overexpression of Nedd4 enhances Comm-induced downregulation of Robo levels (Figure 7 D-G). To determine whether Nedd4 also increases ectopic crossing, which is a morphological output of Comm activity/Robo downregulation, we analyzed nerve cord phenotypes in embryos from the following categories: WT, embryos expressing WT Comm under the elav gal4, and embryos co-expressing WT Comm and Nedd4 under the elav gal4 driver. We measured nerve cord widths and sorted them into three different “bins” of phenotypic severity, with more severe phenotypes being characterized by thinner nerve cords. We find that the distribution of phenotypes in embryos expressing Comm alone differs significantly from embryos expressing Comm + Nedd4, with the latter shifted toward more severe/thinner phenotypic classes. In addition to examining nerve cord width, we investigated whether Nedd4 can enhance collapse of the nerve cord segments (defined by loss of negative space within the segment) induced by Comm overexpression. We determined percentage of collapsed nerve cord segments and divided these values into three phenotypic classes: no collapse, partial collapse, and total collapse. The distribution of phenotypes in embryos co-expressing Nedd4 and Comm differs significantly from those expressing Comm alone. In the Comm expressing population, we only observe nerve cords with no or partial collapse, but in flies co-expressing Comm and Nedd4 we observe the more severe complete collapse phenotype. These findings suggest that addition of Nedd4 enhances the Comm gain of function phenotype both by further reducing nerve cord width and increasing the occurrence of defects related to ectopic crossing. These new data are presented in a new supplemental figure: Figure S9.

      B) The reviewers also suggested additional genetic interaction experiments between Nedd4 and Comm. It was suggested that we included experiments to look at Nedd4 manipulations in Comm null mutant backgrounds. However, given the complete penetrance and expressivity of the Comm null mutation in which no axons cross the midline, these experiments would not be informative. As an alternative, we attempted to use the described hypomorphic Comm allele, but here too, the baseline commissural axon guidance defects are too strong to allow meaningful detection of enhanced phenotypes. Finally, we tested whether removing one copy of comm could reveal phenotypes in the nedd4 zygotic mutants, but we did not detect defects. This is perhaps unsurprising given that comm heterozygotes have no detectable midline crossing defects.

      (4) Text edits.

      We have made a variety of changes to decrease ambiguity in the text and create a more user-friendly experience for the reader. In the text, as opposed to just the figures, we now explicitly state whether we use 5X or 10X UAS constructs for each of our overexpression constructs. We also edited all mentions of the truncated frazzled construct (FraDc) so that they are uniform. We have also edited all mentions of MiMIC so that they are uniform. In addition, we answer a few questions the reviewers posed. First, we clarify that S2R+ cells express endogenous Comm at very low levels. In addition, we clarify about how we know expression levels are similar across the three Comm variants by explaining that transgenes incorporated into the fly genome by targeted insertion into the same location on the third chromosome.

      We hope that these changes adequately address reviewer concerns, strengthen our study, and enhance readability of the paper. We appreciate the time you took to evaluate our manuscript and the thoughtful commentary and suggestions that you provided.

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      This work addresses an important question in the field of Drosophila aggression and mating- prior social isolation is known to increase aggression in males by increased lunging, which is suppressed by group housing (GH). However, it is also known that single-housed (SH) males, despite their higher attempts to court females, are less successful. Here, Gao et al., developed a modified aggression assay, to address this issue by recording aggression in Drosophila males for 2 hours, over a virgin female which is immobilized by burying its head in the food. They found that while SH males frequently lunge in this assay, GH males switch to higher intensity but very low-frequency tussling. Constitutive neuronal silencing and activation experiments implicate cVA sensing Or67d neurons promoting high-frequency lunging, similar to earlier studies, whereas Or47b neurons promote low-frequency but higher intensity tussling. Using optogenetic activation they found that three pairs of pC1 neurons- pC1SS2 increase tussling. While P1a neurons, previously implicated in promoting aggression and courtship, did not increase tussling in optogenetic activation (in the dark), they could promote aggressive tussling in thermogenetic activation carried out in the presence of visible light. It was further suggested, using a further modified aggression assay that GH males use increased tussling and are able to maintain territorial control, providing them mating advantage over SI males and this may partially overcome the effect of aging in GH males.

      Strengths:

      Using a series of clever neurogenetic and behavioral approaches, subsets of ORNs and pC1 neurons were implicated in promoting tussling behaviors. The authors devised a new paradigm to assay for territory control which appears better than earlier paradigms that used a food cup (Chen et al, 2002), as this new assay is relatively clutter-free, and can be eventually automated using computer vision approaches. The manuscript is generally well-written, and the claims made are largely supported by the data.

      Weaknesses:

      I have a few concerns regarding some of the evidence presented and claims made as well as a description of the methodology, which needs to be clarified and extended further.

      (1) Typical paradigms for assaying aggression in Drosophila males last for 20-30 minutes in the presence of nutritious food/yeast paste/females or all of these (Chen et al. 2002, Nilsen et al., 2004, Dierick et al. 2007, Dankert et al., 2009, Certel & Kravitz 2012). The paradigm described in Figure 1 A, while important and more amenable for video recording and computational analysis, seems a modification of the assay from Kravitz lab (Chen et al., 2002), which involved using a female over which males fight on a food cup. The modifications include a flat surface with a central food patch and a female with its head buried in the food, (fixed female) and much longer adaptation and recording times respectively (30 minutes, 2 hours), so in that sense, this is not a 'new' paradigm but a modification of an existing paradigm and its description as new should be appropriately toned down. It would also be important to cite these earlier studies appropriately while describing the assay.

      (2) Lunging is described as a 'low intensity' aggression (line 111 and associated text), however, it is considered a mid to high-intensity aggressive behavior, as compared to other lower-intensity behaviors such as wing flicks, chase, and fencing. Lunging therefore is lower in intensity 'relative' to higher intensity tussling but not in absolute terms and it should be mentioned clearly.

      (3) It is often difficult to distinguish faithfully between boxing and tussling and therefore, these behaviors are often clubbed together as box, tussle by Nielsen et al., 2004 in their Markov chain analysis as well as a more detailed recent study of male aggression (Simon & Heberlein, 2020). Therefore, authors can either reconsider the description of behavior as 'box, tussle' or consider providing a video representation/computational classifier to distinguish between box and tussle behaviors.

      (4) Simon & Heberlein, 2020 showed that increased boxing & tussling precede the formation of a dominance hierarchy in males, and lunges are used subsequently to maintain this dominant status. This study should be cited and discussed appropriately while introducing the paradigm.

      (5) It would be helpful to provide more methodological details about the assay, for instance, a video can be helpful showing how the males are introduced in the assay chamber, are they simply dropped to the floor when the film is removed after 30 minutes (Figures 1-2)?

      (6) The strain of Canton-S (CS) flies used should be mentioned as different strains of CS can have varying levels of aggression, for instance, CS from Martin Heisenberg lab shows very high levels of aggressive lunges. Are the CS lines used in this study isogenized? Are various genetic lines outcrossed into this CS background? In the methods, it is not clear how the white gene levels were controlled for various aggression experiments as it is known to affect aggression (Hoyer et al. 2008).

      (7) How important it is to use a fixed female for the assay to induce tussling? Do these females remain active throughout the assay period of 2.5 hours? Is it possible to use decapitated virgin females for the assay? How will that affect male behaviors?

      (8) Raster plots in Figure 2 suggest a complete lack of tussling in SH males in the first 60 minutes of the encounter, which is surprising given the longer duration of the assay as compared to earlier studies (Nielsen et al. 2004, Simon & Heberlein, 2020 and others), which are able to pick up tussling in a shorter duration of recording time. Also, the duration for tussling is much longer in this study as compared to shorter tussles shown by earlier studies. Is this due to differences in the paradigm used, strain of flies, or some other factor? While the bar plots in Figure 2D show some tussling in SH males, maybe an analysis of raster plots of various videos can be provided in the main text and included as a supplementary figure to address this.

      (9) Neuronal activation experiments suggesting the involvement of pC1SS2 neurons are quite interesting. Further, the role of P1a neurons was demonstrated to be involved in increasing tussling in thermogenetic activation in the presence of light (Figure 4, Supplement 1), which is quite important as the role of vision in optogenetic activation experiments, which required to be carried out in dark, is often not mentioned. However, in the discussion (lines 309-310) it is mentioned that PC1SS2 neurons are 'necessary and sufficient' for inducing tussling. Given that P1a neurons were shown to be involved in promoting tussling, this statement should be toned down.

      (10) Are Or47b neurons connected to pC1SS2 or P1a neurons?

      (11) The paradigm for territory control is quite interesting and subsequent mating advantage experiments are an important addition to the eventual outcome of the aggressive strategy deployed by the males as per their prior housing conditions. It would be important to comment on the 'fitness outcome' of these encounters. For instance, is there any fitness advantage of using tussling by GH males as compared to lunging by SH males? The authors may consider analyzing the number of eggs laid and eclosed progenies from these encounters to address this.

    2. Author response:

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      This work addresses an important question in the field of Drosophila aggression and mating- prior social isolation is known to increase aggression in males by increased lunging, which is suppressed by group housing (GH). However, it is also known that single-housed (SH) males, despite their higher attempts to court females, are less successful. Here, Gao et al., developed a modified aggression assay, to address this issue by recording aggression in Drosophila males for 2 hours, over a virgin female which is immobilized by burying its head in the food. They found that while SH males frequently lunge in this assay, GH males switch to higher intensity but very low-frequency tussling. Constitutive neuronal silencing and activation experiments implicate cVA sensing Or67d neurons promoting high-frequency lunging, similar to earlier studies, whereas Or47b neurons promote low-frequency but higher intensity tussling. Using optogenetic activation they found that three pairs of pC1 neurons- pC1SS2 increase tussling. While P1a neurons, previously implicated in promoting aggression and courtship, did not increase tussling in optogenetic activation (in the dark), they could promote aggressive tussling in thermogenetic activation carried out in the presence of visible light. It was further suggested, using a further modified aggression assay that GH males use increased tussling and are able to maintain territorial control, providing them mating advantage over SI males and this may partially overcome the effect of aging in GH males.

      Strengths:

      Using a series of clever neurogenetic and behavioral approaches, subsets of ORNs and pC1 neurons were implicated in promoting tussling behaviors. The authors devised a new paradigm to assay for territory control which appears better than earlier paradigms that used a food cup (Chen et al, 2002), as this new assay is relatively clutter-free, and can be eventually automated using computer vision approaches. The manuscript is generally well-written, and the claims made are largely supported by the data.

      Thank you for your precise summary of our study and being very positive on the novelty and significance of the study.

      Weaknesses:

      I have a few concerns regarding some of the evidence presented and claims made as well as a description of the methodology, which needs to be clarified and extended further.

      (1) Typical paradigms for assaying aggression in Drosophila males last for 20-30 minutes in the presence of nutritious food/yeast paste/females or all of these (Chen et al. 2002, Nilsen et al., 2004, Dierick et al. 2007, Dankert et al., 2009, Certel & Kravitz 2012). The paradigm described in Figure 1 A, while important and more amenable for video recording and computational analysis, seems a modification of the assay from Kravitz lab (Chen et al., 2002), which involved using a female over which males fight on a food cup. The modifications include a flat surface with a central food patch and a female with its head buried in the food, (fixed female) and much longer adaptation and recording times respectively (30 minutes, 2 hours), so in that sense, this is not a 'new' paradigm but a modification of an existing paradigm and its description as new should be appropriately toned down. It would also be important to cite these earlier studies appropriately while describing the assay.

      We will tone down the description and cite related references.

      (2) Lunging is described as a 'low intensity' aggression (line 111 and associated text), however, it is considered a mid to high-intensity aggressive behavior, as compared to other lower-intensity behaviors such as wing flicks, chase, and fencing. Lunging therefore is lower in intensity 'relative' to higher intensity tussling but not in absolute terms and it should be mentioned clearly.

      Ww will textually address this issue.

      (3) It is often difficult to distinguish faithfully between boxing and tussling and therefore, these behaviors are often clubbed together as box, tussle by Nielsen et al., 2004 in their Markov chain analysis as well as a more detailed recent study of male aggression (Simon & Heberlein, 2020). Therefore, authors can either reconsider the description of behavior as 'box, tussle' or consider providing a video representation/computational classifier to distinguish between box and tussle behaviors.

      We will textually address this issue.

      (4) Simon & Heberlein, 2020 showed that increased boxing & tussling precede the formation of a dominance hierarchy in males, and lunges are used subsequently to maintain this dominant status. This study should be cited and discussed appropriately while introducing the paradigm.

      We will cite this paper and discuss on this issue.

      (5) It would be helpful to provide more methodological details about the assay, for instance, a video can be helpful showing how the males are introduced in the assay chamber, are they simply dropped to the floor when the film is removed after 30 minutes (Figures 1-2)?

      We will provide more methodological details.

      (6) The strain of Canton-S (CS) flies used should be mentioned as different strains of CS can have varying levels of aggression, for instance, CS from Martin Heisenberg lab shows very high levels of aggressive lunges. Are the CS lines used in this study isogenized? Are various genetic lines outcrossed into this CS background? In the methods, it is not clear how the white gene levels were controlled for various aggression experiments as it is known to affect aggression (Hoyer et al. 2008).

      We will textually address this issue.

      (7) How important it is to use a fixed female for the assay to induce tussling? Do these females remain active throughout the assay period of 2.5 hours? Is it possible to use decapitated virgin females for the assay? How will that affect male behaviors?

      We will textually address this issue and provide additional videos.

      (8) Raster plots in Figure 2 suggest a complete lack of tussling in SH males in the first 60 minutes of the encounter, which is surprising given the longer duration of the assay as compared to earlier studies (Nielsen et al. 2004, Simon & Heberlein, 2020 and others), which are able to pick up tussling in a shorter duration of recording time. Also, the duration for tussling is much longer in this study as compared to shorter tussles shown by earlier studies. Is this due to differences in the paradigm used, strain of flies, or some other factor? While the bar plots in Figure 2D show some tussling in SH males, maybe an analysis of raster plots of various videos can be provided in the main text and included as a supplementary figure to address this.

      We will textually address the first question and provide more detailed analysis for the second question.

      (9) Neuronal activation experiments suggesting the involvement of pC1SS2 neurons are quite interesting. Further, the role of P1a neurons was demonstrated to be involved in increasing tussling in thermogenetic activation in the presence of light (Figure 4, Supplement 1), which is quite important as the role of vision in optogenetic activation experiments, which required to be carried out in dark, is often not mentioned. However, in the discussion (lines 309-310) it is mentioned that PC1SS2 neurons are 'necessary and sufficient' for inducing tussling. Given that P1a neurons were shown to be involved in promoting tussling, this statement should be toned down.

      We will tone down this statement.

      (10) Are Or47b neurons connected to pC1SS2 or P1a neurons?

      We conducted pathway analysis in the FlyWire electron microscopy database to investigate the connection between Or47b neurons and pC1 neurons. The results indicate that at least three intermediate neurons are required to establish a connection from Or47b neurons to pC1 neurons. Although the FlyWire database currently only contains neuronal data from female brains, they provide a reference for circuit connect in males. Using the currently available upstream and downstream tracing tools (e.g., retro-/trans-Tango), it is not possible to establish a direct connection between the two. Identifying the intermediate neurons involved in this connection is beyond this study. We will discuss on this concern in our revised manuscript.

      (11) The paradigm for territory control is quite interesting and subsequent mating advantage experiments are an important addition to the eventual outcome of the aggressive strategy deployed by the males as per their prior housing conditions. It would be important to comment on the 'fitness outcome' of these encounters. For instance, is there any fitness advantage of using tussling by GH males as compared to lunging by SH males? The authors may consider analyzing the number of eggs laid and eclosed progenies from these encounters to address this.

      We will discuss on this concern.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Gao et al. investigated the change of aggression strategies by the social experience and its biological significance by using Drosophila. Two modes of inter-male aggression in Drosophila are known: lunging, high-frequency but weak mode, and tussling, low-frequency but more vigorous mode. Previous studies have mainly focused on the lunging. In this paper, the authors developed a new behavioral experiment system for observing tussling behavior and found that tussling is enhanced by group rearing while lunging is suppressed. They then searched for neurons involved in the generation of tussling. Although olfactory receptors named Or67d and Or65a have previously been reported to function in the control of lunging, the authors found that these neurons do not function in the execution of tussling, and another olfactory receptor, Or47b, is required for tussling, as shown by the inhibition of neuronal activity and the gene knockdown experiments. Further optogenetic experiments identified a small number of central neurons pC1[SS2] that induce the tussling specifically. In order to further explore the ecological significance of the aggression mode change in group rearing, a new behavioral experiment was performed to examine territorial control and mating competition. Finally, the authors found that differences in the social experience (group vs. solitary rearing) are important in these biologically significant competitions. These results add a new perspective to the study of aggressive behavior in Drosophila. Furthermore, this study proposes an interesting general model in which the social experience-modified behavioral changes play a role in reproductive success.

      Strengths:

      A behavioral experiment system that allows stable observation of tussling, which could not be easily analyzed due to its low frequency, would be very useful. The experimental setup itself is relatively simple, just the addition of a female to the platform, so it should be applicable to future research. The finding about the relationship between the social experience and the aggression mode change is quite novel. Although the intensity of aggression changes with the social experience was already reported in several papers (Liu et al., 2011, etc.), the fact that the behavioral mode itself changes significantly has rarely been addressed and is extremely interesting. The identification of sensory and central neurons required for the tussling makes appropriate use of the genetic tools and the results are clear. A major strength of the neurobiology in this study is the finding that another group of neurons (Or47b-expressing olfactory neurons and pC1[SS2] neurons), distinct from the group of neurons previously thought to be involved in low-intensity aggression (i.e. lunging), function in the tussling behavior. Further investigation of the detailed circuit analysis is expected to elucidate the neural substrate of the conflict between the two aggression modes.

      Thank you for the acknowledgment of the novelty and significance of the study, and your suggestions for improving the manuscript.

      Weaknesses:

      The experimental systems examining the territory control and the reproductive competition in Figure 5 are novel and have advantages in exploring their biological significance. However, at this stage, the authors' claim is weak since they only show the effects of age and social experience on territorial and mating behaviors, but do not experimentally demonstrate the influence of aggression mode change itself. In the Abstract, the authors state that these findings reveal how social experience shapes fighting strategies to optimize reproductive success. This is the most important perspective of the present study, and it would be necessary to show directly that the change of aggression mode by social experience contributes to reproductive success.

      We will either tone down this statement or provide additional analysis.

      In addition, a detailed description of the tussling is lacking. For example, the authors state that the tussling is less frequent but more vigorous than lunging, but while experimental data are presented on the frequency, the intensity seems to be subjective. The intensity is certainly clear from the supplementary video, but it would be necessary to evaluate the intensity itself using some index. Another problem is that there is no clear explanation of how to determine the tussling. A detailed method is required for the reproducibility of the experiment.

      We will provide more detailed methods and data analysis regarding tussling behavior.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      In this manuscript, Gao et al. presented a series of intriguing data that collectively suggest that tussling, a form of high-intensity fighting among male fruit flies (Drosophila melanogaster) has a unique function and is controlled by a dedicated neural circuit. Based on the results of behavioral assays, they argue that increased tussling among socially experienced males promotes access to resources. They also concluded that tussling is controlled by a class of olfactory sensory neurons and sexually dimorphic central neurons that are distinct from pathways known to control lunges, a common male-type attack behavior.

      A major strength of this work is that it is the first attempt to characterize the behavioral function and neural circuit associated with Drosophila tussling. Many animal species use both low-intensity and high-intensity tactics to resolve conflicts. High-intensity tactics are mostly reserved for escalated fights, which are relatively rare. Because of this, tussling in the flies, like high-intensity fights in other animal species, has not been systematically investigated. Previous studies on fly aggressive behavior have often used socially isolated, relatively young flies within a short observation duration. Their discovery that 1) older (14-days-old) flies tend to tussle more often than younger (2-days-old) flies, 2) group-reared flies tend to tussle more often than socially isolated flies, and 3) flies tend to tussle at a later stage (mostly ~15 minutes after the onset of fighting), are the result of their creativity to look outside of conventional experimental settings. These new findings are key for quantitatively characterizing this interesting yet under-studied behavior.

      Precisely because their initial approach was creative, it is regrettable that the authors missed the opportunity to effectively integrate preceding studies in their rationale or conclusions, which sometimes led to premature claims. Also, while each experiment contains an intriguing finding, these are poorly related to each other. This obscures the central conclusion of this work. The perceived weaknesses are discussed in detail below.

      Thank you for the precise summary of the key findings and novelty of the study, and your insightful suggestions.

      Most importantly, the authors' definition of "tussling" is unclear because they did not explain how they quantified lunges and tussling, even though the central focus of the manuscript is behavior. Supplemental movies S1 and S2 appear to include "tussling" bouts in which 2 flies lunge at each other in rapid succession, and supplemental movie S3 appears to include bouts of "holding", in which one fly holds the opponent's wings and shakes vigorously. These cases raise a concern that their behavior classification is arbitrary. Specifically, lunges and tussling should be objectively distinguished because one of their conclusions is that these two actions are controlled by separate neural circuits. It is impossible to evaluate the credibility of their behavioral data without clearly describing a criterion of each behavior.

      We will add more details in methods.

      It is also confusing that the authors completely skipped the characterization of the tussling-controlling neurons they claimed to have identified. These neurons (a subset of so-called pC1 neurons labeled by previously described split-GAL4 line pC1SS2) are central to this manuscript, but the only information the authors have provided is its gross morphology in a low-resolution image (Figure 4D, E) and a statement that "only 3 pairs of pC1SS2 neurons whose function is both necessary and sufficient for inducing tussling in males" (lines 310-311). The evidence that supports this claim isn't provided. The expression pattern of pC1SS2 neurons in males has been only briefly described in reference 46. It is possible that these neurons overlap with previously characterized dsx+ and/or fru+ neurons that are important for male aggressions (measured by lunges), such as in Koganezawa et al., Curr. Biol. 2016 and Chiu et al., Cell 2020. This adds to the concern that lunge and tussling are not as clearly separated as the authors claim.

      Reply: we will perform additional morphological and functional experiments on pC1<sup>SS2</sup> neurons, e.g., whether they are fru or dsx positive and comparing them with P1a neurons.

      While their characterizations of tussling behaviors in wild-type males (Figures 1 and 2) are intriguing, the remaining data have little link with each other, making it difficult to understand what their main conclusion is. Figure 3 suggests that one class of olfactory sensory neurons (OSN) that express Or47b is necessary for tussling behavior. While the authors acknowledged that Or47b-expressing OSNs promote male courtship toward females presumably by detecting cuticular compounds, they provided little discussion on how a class of OSN can promote two different types of innate behavior. No evidence of a functional or circuitry relationship between the Or47b pathway and the pC1SS2 neurons was provided. It is unclear how these two components are relevant to each other. Lastly, the rationale of the experiment in Figure 5 and the interpretation of the results is confusing. The authors attributed a higher mating success rate of older, socially experienced males over younger, socially isolated males to their tendency to tussle, but tussling cannot happen when one of the two flies is not engaged. If, for instance, a socially isolated 14-day-old male does not engage in tussling as indicated in Figure 2, how can they tussle with a group-housed 14-day-old male? Because aggressive interactions in Figure 5 were not quantified, it is impossible to conclude that tussling plays a role in copulation advantage among pairs as authors argue (lines 282-288).

      Regarding why Or47b-expressing OSNs regulate two types of innate behaviors, we will add a discussion in the revised manuscript to explore the possible mechanisms underlying this phenomenon.

      Regarding the relationship between Or47b-expressing OSNs and pC1<sup>SS2</sup> neurons, we conducted pathway connection analyses using the FlyWire database. Although the FlyWire database currently only contains neuronal data from female brains, these findings provide a certain degree of reference. The results indicate that at least three intermediate neurons are required to establish the connection between these two neuronal types. We hope the editor and reviewers would agree with us that identifying these intermediate neurons involved in this connection is beyond this study.

      Regarding the rationale and conclusions from the experiments in Figure 5, we acknowledge the difficulty in quantifying tussling and lunging behaviors in these experiments. In the revised manuscript, we will tone down the statements about the relationship between fighting strategies and reproductive success. Additionally, we will provide further behavioral experiments to support the association between these two factors.

      Despite these weaknesses, it is important to acknowledge the authors' courage to initiate an investigation into a less characterized, high-intensity fighting behavior. Tussling requires the simultaneous engagement of two flies. Even if there is confusion over the distinction between lunges and tussling, the authors' conclusion that socially experienced flies and socially isolated flies employ distinct fighting strategies is convincing. Questions that require more rigorous studies are 1) whether such differences are encoded by separate circuits, and 2) whether the different fighting strategies are causally responsible for gaining ethologically relevant resources among socially experienced flies. Enhanced transparency of behavioral data will help readers understand the impact of this study. Lastly, the manuscript often mentions previous works and results without citing relevant references. For readers to grasp the context of this work, it is important to provide information about methods, reagents, and other key resources.

      We will add more details in methods and cite additional references, we will also perform additional experiment on pC1<sup>SS2</sup> function.

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      The paper proposes a new source reconstruction method for electroencephalography (EEG) data and claims that it can provide far superior spatial resolution than existing approaches and also superior spatial resolution to fMRI. This primarily stems from abandoning the established quasi-static approximation to Maxwell's equations.

      The proposed method brings together some very interesting ideas, and the potential impact is high. However, the work does not provide the evaluations expected when validating a new source reconstruction approach. I cannot judge the success or impact of the approach based on the current set of results. This is very important to rectify, especially given that the work is challenging some long-standing and fundamental assumptions made in the field.

      I also find that the clarity of the description of the methods, and how they link to what is shown in the main results hard to follow.

      I am insufficiently familiar with the intricacies of Maxwell's equations to assess the validity of the assumptions and the equations being used by WETCOW. The work therefore needs assessing by someone more versed in that area. That said, how do we know that the new terms in Maxwell's equations, i.e. the time-dependent terms that are normally missing from established quasi-static-based approaches, are large enough to need to be considered? Where is the evidence for this?

      I have not come across EFD, and I am not sure many in the EEG field will have. To require the reader to appreciate the contributions of WETCOW only through the lens of the unfamiliar (and far from trivial) approach of EFD is frustrating. In particular, what impact do the assumptions of WETCOW make compared to the assumptions of EFD on the overall performance of SPECTRE?

      The paper needs to provide results showing the improvements obtained when WETCOW or EFD are combined with more established and familiar approaches. For example, EFD can be replaced by a first-order vector autoregressive (VAR) model, i.e. y_t = A y_{t-1} + e_t (where y_t is [num_gridpoints x 1] and A is [num_gridpoints x num_gridpoints] of autoregressive parameters).

      The authors' decision not to include any comparisons with established source reconstruction approaches does not make sense to me. They attempt to justify this by saying that the spatial resolution of LORETA would need to be very low compared to the resolution being used in SPECTRE, to avoid compute problems. But how does this stop them from using a spatial resolution typically used by the field that has no compute problems, and comparing with that? This would be very informative. There are also more computationally efficient methods than LORETA that are very popular, such as beamforming or minimum norm.

      In short, something like the following methods needs to be compared:

      (1) Full SPECTRE (EFD plus WETCOW)<br /> (2) WETCOW + VAR or standard ("simple regression") techniques<br /> (3) Beamformer/min norm plus EFD<br /> (4) Beamformer/min norm plus VAR or standard ("simple regression") techniques

      This would also allow for more illuminating and quantitative comparisons of the real data. For example, a metric of similarity between EEG maps and fMRI can be computed to compare the performance of these methods. At the moment, the fMRI-EEG analysis amounts to just showing fairly similar maps.

      There are no results provided on simulated data. Simulations are needed to provide quantitative comparisons of the different methods, to show face validity, and to demonstrate unequivocally the new information that SPECTRE can _potentially_ provide on real data compared to established methods. The paper ideally needs at least 3 types of simulations, where one thing is changed at a time, e.g.:

      (1) Data simulated using WETCOW plus EFD assumptions<br /> (2) Data simulated using WETCOW plus e.g. VAR assumptions<br /> (3) Data simulated using standard lead fields (based on the quasi-static Maxwell solutions) plus e.g. VAR assumptions

      These should be assessed with the multiple methods specified earlier. Crucially the assessment should be quantitative showing the ability to recover the ground truth over multiple realisations of realistic noise. This type of assessment of a new source reconstruction method is the expected standard.

    1. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Host-derived lipids are an important factor during Mtb infection. In this study, using CRISPR knockouts of genes involved in fatty acid uptake and metabolism, the authors claim that a compromised uptake, storage, or metabolism of fatty acid restricts Mtb growth upon infection. Further, the authors claim that the mechanism involves increased glycolysis, autophagy, oxidative stress, pro-inflammatory cytokines, and nutrient limitation. The authors also claim that impaired lipid droplet formation restricts Mtb growth. However, promoting lipid droplet biogenesis does not reverse/promote Mtb growth.

      Strengths:

      The strength of the study is the use of clean HOXB8-derived primary mouse macrophage lines for generating CRISPR knockouts.

      Weaknesses:

      There are many weaknesses of this study, they are clubbed into four categories below

      (1) Evidence and interpretations: The results shown in this study at several places do not support the interpretations made or are internally contradictory or inconsistent. There are several important observations, but none were taken forward for in-depth analysis. A<br /> a) The phenotypes of PLIN2-/-, FATP1-/-, and CPT-/- are comparable in terms of bacterial growth restriction; however, their phenotype in terms of lipid body formation, IL1B expression, etc., are not consistent. These are interesting observations and suggest additional mechanisms specific to specific target genes; however, clubbing them all as altered fatty acid uptake or catabolism-dependent phenotypes takes away this important point. b) Finding the FATP1 transcript in the HOXB8-derived FATP1-/- CRISPR KO line is a bit confusing. There is less than a two-fold decrease in relative transcript abundance in the KO line compared to the WT line, leaving concerns regarding the robustness of other experiments as well using FATP1-/- cells.<br /> c) No gene showing differential regulation in FATP-/- macrophages, which is very surprising.<br /> d) ROS measurements should be done using flow cytometry and not by microscopy to nail the actual pattern.

      (2) Experimental design: For a few assays, the experimental design is inappropriate<br /> a) For autophagy flux assay, immunoblot of LC3II alone is not sufficient to make any interpretation regarding the state of autophagy. This assay must be done with BafA1 or CQ controls to assess the true state of autophagy.<br /> b) Similarly, qPCR analyses of autophagy-related gene expression do not reflect anything on the state of autophagy flux.

      (3) Using correlative observations as evidence:<br /> a) Observations based on RNAseq analyses are presented as functional readouts, which is incorrect.<br /> b) Claiming that the inability to generate lipid droplets in PLIN2-/- cells led to the upregulation of several pathways in the cells is purely correlative, and the causal relationship does not exist in the data presented.

      (4) Novelty: A few main observations described in this study were previously reported. That includes Mtb growth restriction in PLIN2 and FATP1 deficient cells. Similarly, the impact of Metformin and TMZ on intracellular Mtb growth is well-reported. While that validates these observations in this study, it takes away any novelty from the study.

      (5) Manuscript organisation: It will be very helpful to rearrange figures and supplementary figures.

    2. Author response:

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study investigates the role of macrophage lipid metabolism in the intracellular growth of Mycobacterium tuberculosis. By using a CRISPR-Cas9 gene-editing approach, the authors knocked out key genes involved in fatty acid import, lipid droplet formation, and fatty acid oxidation in macrophages. Their results show that disrupting various stages of fatty acid metabolism significantly impairs the ability of Mtb to replicate inside macrophages. The mechanisms of growth restriction included increased glycolysis, oxidative stress, pro-inflammatory cytokine production, enhanced autophagy, and nutrient limitation. The study demonstrates that targeting fatty acid homeostasis at different stages of the lipid metabolic process could offer new strategies for host-directed therapies against tuberculosis.

      The work is convincing and methodologically strong, combining genetic, metabolic, and transcriptomic analyses to provide deep insights into how host lipid metabolism affects bacterial survival.

      Strengths:

      The study uses a multifaceted approach, including CRISPR-Cas9 gene knockouts, metabolic assays, and dual RNA sequencing, to assess how various stages of macrophage lipid metabolism affect Mtb growth. The use of CRISPR-Cas9 to selectively knock out key genes involved in fatty acid metabolism enables precise investigation of how each step-lipid import, lipid droplet formation, and fatty acid oxidation affect Mtb survival. The study offers mechanistic insights into how different impairments in lipid metabolism lead to diverse antimicrobial responses, including glycolysis, oxidative stress, and autophagy. This deepens the understanding of macrophage function in immune defense.

      The use of functional assays to validate findings (e.g., metabolic flux analyses, lipid droplet formation assays, and rescue experiments with fatty acid supplementation) strengthens the reliability and applicability of the results.

      By highlighting potential targets for HDT that exploit macrophage lipid metabolism to restrict Mtb growth, the work has significant implications for developing new tuberculosis treatments.

      Weaknesses:

      The experiments were primarily conducted in vitro using CRISPR-modified macrophages. While these provide valuable insights, they may not fully replicate the complexity of the in vivo environment where multiple cell types and factors influence Mtb infection and immune responses.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. We acknowledge that our in vitro system may indeed not fully replicate the complex in vivo environment in light of the heterogenous responses of macrophages to Mtb infection in whole animal models. We do believe, however, that the Hoxb8 in vitro model provides a powerful genetic tool to interrogate host-Mtb interactions using primary macrophages that represent the bone marrow-derived macrophage lineage. Reviewer #1 also made several helpful suggestions in their recommendations to authors relating to the reorganization of the data in our Figures in both the manuscript and the supplemental data.  We will incorporate these suggestions into the revised version of the manuscript upon resubmission.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Host-derived lipids are an important factor during Mtb infection. In this study, using CRISPR knockouts of genes involved in fatty acid uptake and metabolism, the authors claim that a compromised uptake, storage, or metabolism of fatty acid restricts Mtb growth upon infection. Further, the authors claim that the mechanism involves increased glycolysis, autophagy, oxidative stress, pro-inflammatory cytokines, and nutrient limitation. The authors also claim that impaired lipid droplet formation restricts Mtb growth. However, promoting lipid droplet biogenesis does not reverse/promote Mtb growth.

      Strengths:

      The strength of the study is the use of clean HOXB8-derived primary mouse macrophage lines for generating CRISPR knockouts.

      Weaknesses:

      There are many weaknesses of this study, they are clubbed into four categories below

      (1) Evidence and interpretations: The results shown in this study at several places do not support the interpretations made or are internally contradictory or inconsistent. There are several important observations, but none were taken forward for in-depth analysis. A

      a) The phenotypes of PLIN2-/-, FATP1-/-, and CPT-/- are comparable in terms of bacterial growth restriction; however, their phenotype in terms of lipid body formation, IL1B expression, etc., are not consistent. These are interesting observations and suggest additional mechanisms specific to specific target genes; however, clubbing them all as altered fatty acid uptake or catabolism-dependent phenotypes takes away this important point.

      We thank the reviewer for highlighting this. Our main focus was on assessing the impact of manipulating lipid homeostasis in macrophages and the consequences this has on the intracellular growth of Mtb.  It was never our intention to imply these mutants generated equivalent phenotypes, and we will modify the revised manuscript to reflect this point.  We will stress that interfering with lipid processing at different stages in macrophages results in both shared and divergent anti-microbial conditions against Mtb.

      b) Finding the FATP1 transcript in the HOXB8-derived FATP1-/- CRISPR KO line is a bit confusing. There is less than a two-fold decrease in relative transcript abundance in the KO line compared to the WT line, leaving concerns regarding the robustness of other experiments as well using FATP1<sup>-/-</sup> cells.

      CRISPR-Cas9 targeting of genes with single sgRNAs as is the case with our mutants generates insertions and deletions (INDELs) at the CRISPR cut site. These INDELs do not block mRNA transcription totally, and this is widely reported and accepted in the field.  In these cases, RT-PCR or RNA-seq methods are not used to verify CRISPR knockouts as they are not sensitive enough to identify INDELs. We provide knockout efficiencies by ICE analysis in supplemental information file 1 for all the mutants used in the study. We also demonstrate protein depletion by western blot and flow cytometry for all the mutants (Figure 1 - figure supplement 1). Only mutants with greater than >90% protein depletion were used for subsequent characterization.

      c) No gene showing differential regulation in FATP1<sup>-/-</sup> macrophages, which is very surprising.

      We assume the reviewer is referring to the Mtb transcriptome response in FATP1<sup>-/-</sup> macrophages, which we agree was unexpected.  However, we saw a significant compensatory response in the host cell (at transcriptional level) in FATP1-/- macrophages as evidenced by an upregulation of other fatty acid transporters (Figure 5 - figure supplement 1). We postulate that these compensatory responses could, in part, alleviate the stresses the bacteria experience within the cell, and these were discussed in the manuscript.

      d) ROS measurements should be done using flow cytometry and not by microscopy to nail the actual pattern.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion. However, confocal imaging is also widely used to measure ROS with similar quantitative power and individual cell resolution (PMID: 32636249, 35737799).

      (2) Experimental design: For a few assays, the experimental design is inappropriate

      a) For autophagy flux assay, immunoblot of LC3II alone is not sufficient to make any interpretation regarding the state of autophagy. This assay must be done with BafA1 or CQ controls to assess the true state of autophagy.

      We would like to point out that monitoring LC3I to LC3II conversion by western blot, confocal imaging of LC3 puncta and qPCR analysis of autophagy related genes are all validated assays for monitoring autophagic flux in a wide variety of cells. We refer the reviewer to the latest extensive guidelines on the subject (PMID: 33634751). Furthermore, Bafilomycin A and chloroquine are not specific inhibitors of autophagy and therefore are of limited value as controls. BafA is an inhibitor of the proton-ATPase apparatus as well impacting autophagy through activity on the Ca-P60A/SERCA pathway. Chloroquine impacts vacuole acidification, autophagosome/lysosome fusion and slows phagosome maturation. So, while BafA and chloroquine will reduce autophagy their effects are pleotropic and their impact on Mtb is unknown.

      b) Similarly, qPCR analyses of autophagy-related gene expression do not reflect anything on the state of autophagy flux.

      See our response above.

      (3) Using correlative observations as evidence:

      a) Observations based on RNAseq analyses are presented as functional readouts, which is incorrect.

      We are not entirely sure where we used our RNA-seq data sets as functional readouts. We used our transcriptome data to provide a preliminary identification of anti-microbial responses in the mutant macrophages infected with Mtb. Where applicable, we followed up and confirmed the more compelling RNA-seq data either by metabolic flux analyzes, qPCR, ROS measurements, and quantitative imaging.

      b) Claiming that the inability to generate lipid droplets in PLIN2-/- cells led to the upregulation of several pathways in the cells is purely correlative, and the causal relationship does not exist in the data presented.

      Again, it was not our intention to infer causality. Throughout the manuscript, we endeavor to present our data with a specific focus on describing the consequences of interfering with either fatty acid import, lipid droplet biogenesis and fatty acid oxidation on macrophage responses to Mtb.  We will revisit the revised manuscript to remove any sections that imply causality.

      (4) Novelty: A few main observations described in this study were previously reported. That includes Mtb growth restriction in PLIN2 and FATP1 deficient cells. Similarly, the impact of Metformin and TMZ on intracellular Mtb growth is well-reported. While that validates these observations in this study, it takes away any novelty from the study.

      To the best of our knowledge, Mtb growth restrictions in PLIN2 and FATP1 deficient macrophages have not been reported elsewhere. To the contrary, PLIN2 knockout macrophages obtained from PLIN2 deficient mice have been reported to robustly support Mtb replication (PMID: 29370315), quite the opposite to our data. We extensively discuss these discrepancies in the manuscript. We also discuss and cite appropriate references where Mtb growth restriction for similar macrophage mutants have been reported (CD36<sup>-/-</sup> and CPT2<sup>-/-</sup>). Our aim was to carry out a systematic myeloid specific genetic interference of fatty acid import, storage and catabolism to assess the effect on Mtb growth at all stages of lipid handling instead of focusing on one target. In the chemical approach, we used TMZ and Metformin deliberately because they had already been reported as being active against intracellular Mtb and we wished to place our data in the context of existing literature.  These studies were referenced extensively in the text.

      (5) Manuscript organisation: It will be very helpful to rearrange figures and supplementary figures.

      We will re-organize the figures in the manuscript revision as per the reviewer’s recommendation, and the recommendations of reviewer #1.

      We will address the other concerns raised by reviewer #2 in the recommendations to authors during revision of the manuscript. 

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study provides significant insights into how host metabolism, specifically lipids, influences the pathogenesis of Mycobacterium tuberculosis (Mtb). It builds on existing knowledge about Mtb's reliance on host lipids and emphasizes the potential of targeting fatty acid metabolism for therapeutic intervention.

      Strengths:

      To generate the data, the authors use CRISPR technology to precisely disrupt the genes involved in lipid import (CD36, FATP1), lipid droplet formation (PLIN2), and fatty acid oxidation (CPT1A, CPT2) in mouse primary macrophages. The Mtb Erdman strain is used to infect the macrophage mutants. The study, reveals specific roles of different lipid-related genes. Importantly, results challenge previous assumptions about lipid droplet formation and show that macrophage responses to lipid metabolism impairments are complex and multifaceted. The experiments are well-controlled and the data is convincing.

      Overall, this well-written paper makes a meaningful contribution to the field of tuberculosis research, particularly in the context of host-directed therapies (HDTs). It suggests that manipulating macrophage metabolism could be an effective strategy to limit Mtb growth.

      Weaknesses:

      None noted. The manuscript provides important new knowledge that will lead mpvel to host-directed therapies to control Mtb infections.

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study investigates what happens to the stimulus-driven responses of V4 neurons when an item is held in working memory. Monkeys are trained to perform memory-guided saccades: they must remember the location of a visual cue and then, after a delay, make an eye movement to the remembered location. In addition, a background stimulus (a grating) is presented that varies in contrast and orientation across trials. This stimulus serves to probe the V4 responses, is present throughout the trial, and is task-irrelevant. Using this design, the authors report memory-driven changes in the LFP power spectrum, changes in synchronization between the V4 spikes and the ongoing LFP, and no significant changes in firing rate.

      Strengths:

      (1) The logic of the experiment is nicely laid out.

      (2) The presentation is clear and concise.

      (3) The analyses are thorough, careful, and yield unambiguous results.

      (4) Together, the recording and inactivation data demonstrate quite convincingly that the signal stored in FEF is communicated to V4 and that, under the current experimental conditions, the impact from FEF manifests as variations in the timing of the stimulus-evoked V4 spikes and not in the intensity of the evoked activity (i.e., firing rate).

      Weaknesses:

      I think there are two limitations of the study that are important for evaluating the potential functional implications of the data. If these were acknowledged and discussed, it would be easier to situate these results in the broader context of the topic, and their importance would be conveyed more fairly and transparently.

      (1) While it may be true that no firing rate modulations were observed in this case, this may have been because the probe stimuli in the task were behaviorally irrelevant; if anything, they might have served as distracters to the monkey's actual task (the MGS). From this perspective, the lack of rate modulation could simply mean that the monkeys were successful in attending the relevant cue and shielding their performance from the potentially distracting effect of the background gratings. Had the visual probes been in some way behaviorally relevant and/or spatially localized (instead of full field), the data might have looked very different. With this in mind, it would be prudent to dial down the tone of the conclusions, which stretch well beyond the current experimental conditions (see recommendations).

      (2) Another point worth discussing is that although the FEF delay-period activity corresponds to a remembered location, it can also be interpreted as an attended location, or as a motor plan for the upcoming eye movement. These are overlapping constructs that are difficult to disentangle, but it would be important to mention them given prior studies of attentional or saccade-related modulation in V4. The firing rate modulations reported in some of those cases provide a stark contrast with the findings here, and I again suspect that the differences may be due at least in part to the differing experimental conditions, rather than a drastically different encoding mode or functional linkage between FEF and V4.

    2. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      It is generally believed that higher-order areas in the prefrontal cortex guide selection during working memory and attention through signals that selectively recruit neuronal populations in sensory areas that encode the relevant feature. In this work, Parto-Dezfouli and colleagues tested how these prefrontal signals influence activity in visual area V4 using a spatial working memory task. They recorded neuronal activity from visual area V4 and found that information about visual features at the behaviorally relevant part of space during the memory period is carried in a spatially selective manner in the timing of spikes relative to a beta oscillation (phase coding) rather than in the average firing rate (rate code). The authors further tested whether there is a causal link between prefrontal input and the phase encoding of visual information during the memory period. They found that indeed inactivation of the frontal eye fields, a prefrontal area known to send spatial signals to V4, decreased beta oscillatory activity in V4 and information about the visual features. The authors went one step further to develop a neural model that replicated the experimental findings and suggested that changes in the average firing rate of individual neurons might be a result of small changes in the exact beta oscillation frequency within V4. These data provide important new insights into the possible mechanisms through which top-down signals can influence activity in hierarchically lower sensory areas and can therefore have a significant impact on the Systems, Cognitive, and Computational Neuroscience fields.

      Strengths:

      This is a well-written paper with a well-thought-out experimental design. The authors used a smart variation of the memory-guided saccade task to assess how information about the visual features of stimuli is encoded during the memory period. By using a grating of various contrasts and orientations as the background the authors ensured that bottom-up visual input would drive responses in visual area V4 in the delay period, something that is not commonly done in experimental settings in the same task. Moreover, one of the major strengths of the study is the use of different approaches including analysis of electrophysiological data using advanced computational methods of analysis, manipulation of activity through inactivation of the prefrontal cortex to establish causality of top-down signals on local activity signatures (beta oscillations, spike locking and information carried) as well as computational neuronal modeling. This has helped extend an observation into a possible mechanism well supported by the results.

      Weaknesses:

      Although the authors provide support for their conclusions from different approaches, I found that the selection of some of the analyses and statistical assessments made it harder for the reader to follow the comparison between a rate code and a phase code. Specifically, the authors wish to assess whether stimulus information is carried selectively for the relevant position through a firing rate or a phase code. Results for the rate code are shown in Figures 1B-G and for the phase code are shown in Figure 2. Whereas an F-statistic is shown over time in Figure 1F (and Figure S1) no such analysis is shown for LFP power. Similarly, following FEF inactivation there is no data on how that influences V4 firing rates and information carried by firing rates in the two conditions (for positions inside and outside the V4 RF). In the same vein, no data are shown on how the inactivation affects beta phase coding in the OUT condition.

      Moreover, some of the statistical assessments could be carried out differently including all conditions to provide more insight into mechanisms. For example, a two-way ANOVA followed by post hoc tests could be employed to include comparisons across both spatial (IN, OUT) and visual feature conditions (see results in Figures 2D, S4, etc.). Figure 2D suggests that the absence of selectivity in the OUT condition (no significant difference between high and low contrast stimuli) is mainly due to an increase in slope in the OUT condition for the low contrast stimulus compared to that for the same stimulus in the IN condition. If this turns out to be true it would provide important information that the authors should address.

      There are also a few conceptual gaps that leave the reader wondering whether the results and conclusion are general enough. Specifically,

      (1) the authors used microstimulation in the FEF to determine RFs. It is thus possible that the FEF sites that were inactivated were largely more motor-related. Given that beta oscillations and motor preparatory activity have been found to be correlated and motor sites show increased beta oscillatory activity in the delay period, it is possible that the effect of FEF inactivation on V4 beta oscillations is due to inactivation of the main source of beta activity. Had the authors inactivated sites with a preponderance of visual neurons in the FEF would the results be different?

      (2) Somewhat related to this point and given the prominence of low-frequency activity in deeper layers of the visual cortex according to some previous studies, it is not clear where the authors' V4 recordings were located. The authors report that they do have data from linear arrays, so it should be possible to address this.

      (3) The authors suggest that a change in the exact frequency of oscillation underlies the increase in firing rate for different stimulus features. However, the shift in frequency is prominent for contrast but not for orientation, something that raises questions about the general applicability of this observation for different visual features.

      (4) One of the major points of the study is the primacy of the phase code over the rate code during the delay period. Specifically, here it is shown that information about the visual features of a stimulus carried by the rate code is similar for relevant and irrelevant locations during the delay period. This contrasts with what several studies have shown for attention in which case information carried in firing rates about stimuli in the attended location is enhanced relative to that for stimuli in the unattended location. If we are to understand how top-down signals work in cognitive functions it is inevitable to compare working memory with attention. The possible source of this difference is not clear and is not discussed. The reader is left wondering whether perhaps a different measure or analysis (e.g. a percent explained variance analysis) might reveal differences during the delay period for different visual features across the two spatial conditions.

      The use of the memory-guided saccade task has certain disadvantages in the context of this study. Although delay activity is interpreted as memory activity by the authors, it is in principle possible that it reflects preparation for the upcoming saccade, spatial attention (particularly since there is a stimulus in the RF), etc. This could potentially change the conclusion and perspective.

      For the position outside the V4 RF, there is a decrease in both beta oscillations and the clustering of spikes at a specific phase. It is therefore possible that the decrease in information about the stimuli features is a byproduct of the decrease in beta power and phase locking. Decreased oscillatory activity and phase locking can result in less reliable estimates of phase, which could decrease the mutual information estimates.

      The authors propose that coherent oscillations could be the mechanism through which the prefrontal cortex influences beta activity in V4. I assume they mean coherent oscillations between the prefrontal cortex and V4. Given that they do have simultaneous recordings from the two areas they could test this hypothesis on their own data, however, they do not provide any results on that.

      The authors make a strong point about the relevance of changes in the oscillation frequency and how this may result in an increase in firing rate although it could also be the reverse - an increase in firing rate leading to an increase in the frequency peak. It is not clear at all how these changes in frequency could come about. A more nuanced discussion based on both experimental and modeling data is necessary to appreciate the source and role (if any) of this observation.

    3. Author response:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study investigates what happens to the stimulus-driven responses of V4 neurons when an item is held in working memory. Monkeys are trained to perform memory-guided saccades: they must remember the location of a visual cue and then, after a delay, make an eye movement to the remembered location. In addition, a background stimulus (a grating) is presented that varies in contrast and orientation across trials. This stimulus serves to probe the V4 responses, is present throughout the trial, and is task-irrelevant. Using this design, the authors report memory-driven changes in the LFP power spectrum, changes in synchronization between the V4 spikes and the ongoing LFP, and no significant changes in firing rate.

      Strengths:

      (1) The logic of the experiment is nicely laid out.

      (2) The presentation is clear and concise.

      (3) The analyses are thorough, careful, and yield unambiguous results.

      (4) Together, the recording and inactivation data demonstrate quite convincingly that the signal stored in FEF is communicated to V4 and that, under the current experimental conditions, the impact from FEF manifests as variations in the timing of the stimulus-evoked V4 spikes and not in the intensity of the evoked activity (i.e., firing rate).

      Weaknesses:

      I think there are two limitations of the study that are important for evaluating the potential functional implications of the data. If these were acknowledged and discussed, it would be easier to situate these results in the broader context of the topic, and their importance would be conveyed more fairly and transparently.

      (1) While it may be true that no firing rate modulations were observed in this case, this may have been because the probe stimuli in the task were behaviorally irrelevant; if anything, they might have served as distracters to the monkey's actual task (the MGS). From this perspective, the lack of rate modulation could simply mean that the monkeys were successful in attending the relevant cue and shielding their performance from the potentially distracting effect of the background gratings. Had the visual probes been in some way behaviorally relevant and/or spatially localized (instead of full field), the data might have looked very different.

      Any task design involves tradeoffs; if the visual stimulus was behaviorally relevant, then any observed neurophysiological changes would be more confounded by possible attentional effects. We cannot exclude the possibility that a different task or different stimuli would produce different results; we ourselves have reported firing rate enhancements for other types of visual probes during an MGS task (Merrikhi et al. 2017). We have added an acknowledgement of these limitations in the discussion section (lines 311-319). At minimum, our results show a dissociation between the top-down modulation of phase coding, which is enhanced during WM even for these task-irrelevant stimuli, and rate coding. Establishing whether and how this phase coding is related to perception and behavior will be an important direction for future work.

      With this in mind, it would be prudent to dial down the tone of the conclusions, which stretch well beyond the current experimental conditions (see recommendations).

      We have edited the title (removing the word ‘primarily’) and key sentences throughout to tone down the conclusions, generally to state that the importance of a phase code in WM modulations is *possible* given the observed results, rather than certain (see abstract line 27, introduction lines 58-60, results line 215, conclusion lines 294-295).

      (2) Another point worth discussing is that although the FEF delay-period activity corresponds to a remembered location, it can also be interpreted as an attended location, or as a motor plan for the upcoming eye movement. These are overlapping constructs that are difficult to disentangle, but it would be important to mention them given prior studies of attentional or saccade-related modulation in V4. The firing rate modulations reported in some of those cases provide a stark contrast with the findings here, and I again suspect that the differences may be due at least in part to the differing experimental conditions, rather than a drastically different encoding mode or functional linkage between FEF and V4.

      We have added a paragraph to the discussion section addressing links to attention and motor planning (lines 301-322), and specifically acknowledging the inherent difficulties of fully dissociating these effects when interpreting our results (lines 311-319).

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      It is generally believed that higher-order areas in the prefrontal cortex guide selection during working memory and attention through signals that selectively recruit neuronal populations in sensory areas that encode the relevant feature. In this work, Parto-Dezfouli and colleagues tested how these prefrontal signals influence activity in visual area V4 using a spatial working memory task. They recorded neuronal activity from visual area V4 and found that information about visual features at the behaviorally relevant part of space during the memory period is carried in a spatially selective manner in the timing of spikes relative to a beta oscillation (phase coding) rather than in the average firing rate (rate code). The authors further tested whether there is a causal link between prefrontal input and the phase encoding of visual information during the memory period. They found that indeed inactivation of the frontal eye fields, a prefrontal area known to send spatial signals to V4, decreased beta oscillatory activity in V4 and information about the visual features. The authors went one step further to develop a neural model that replicated the experimental findings and suggested that changes in the average firing rate of individual neurons might be a result of small changes in the exact beta oscillation frequency within V4. These data provide important new insights into the possible mechanisms through which top-down signals can influence activity in hierarchically lower sensory areas and can therefore have a significant impact on the Systems, Cognitive, and Computational Neuroscience fields.

      Strengths:

      This is a well-written paper with a well-thought-out experimental design. The authors used a smart variation of the memory-guided saccade task to assess how information about the visual features of stimuli is encoded during the memory period. By using a grating of various contrasts and orientations as the background the authors ensured that bottom-up visual input would drive responses in visual area V4 in the delay period, something that is not commonly done in experimental settings in the same task. Moreover, one of the major strengths of the study is the use of different approaches including analysis of electrophysiological data using advanced computational methods of analysis, manipulation of activity through inactivation of the prefrontal cortex to establish causality of top-down signals on local activity signatures (beta oscillations, spike locking and information carried) as well as computational neuronal modeling. This has helped extend an observation into a possible mechanism well supported by the results.

      Weaknesses:

      Although the authors provide support for their conclusions from different approaches, I found that the selection of some of the analyses and statistical assessments made it harder for the reader to follow the comparison between a rate code and a phase code. Specifically, the authors wish to assess whether stimulus information is carried selectively for the relevant position through a firing rate or a phase code. Results for the rate code are shown in Figures 1B-G and for the phase code are shown in Figure 2. Whereas an F-statistic is shown over time in Figure 1F (and Figure S1) no such analysis is shown for LFP power. Similarly, following FEF inactivation there is no data on how that influences V4 firing rates and information carried by firing rates in the two conditions (for positions inside and outside the V4 RF). In the same vein, no data are shown on how the inactivation affects beta phase coding in the OUT condition.

      We plan to incorporate statistical analysis of this point in the revised version.

      Moreover, some of the statistical assessments could be carried out differently including all conditions to provide more insight into mechanisms. For example, a two-way ANOVA followed by post hoc tests could be employed to include comparisons across both spatial (IN, OUT) and visual feature conditions (see results in Figures 2D, S4, etc.). Figure 2D suggests that the absence of selectivity in the OUT condition (no significant difference between high and low contrast stimuli) is mainly due to an increase in slope in the OUT condition for the low contrast stimulus compared to that for the same stimulus in the IN condition. If this turns out to be true it would provide important information that the authors should address.

      We plan to incorporate statistical analysis of this point in the revised version.

      There are also a few conceptual gaps that leave the reader wondering whether the results and conclusion are general enough. Specifically,

      (1) the authors used microstimulation in the FEF to determine RFs. It is thus possible that the FEF sites that were inactivated were largely more motor-related. Given that beta oscillations and motor preparatory activity have been found to be correlated and motor sites show increased beta oscillatory activity in the delay period, it is possible that the effect of FEF inactivation on V4 beta oscillations is due to inactivation of the main source of beta activity. Had the authors inactivated sites with a preponderance of visual neurons in the FEF would the results be different?

      We do not believe this to be likely based on what is known anatomically and functionally about this circuitry. Anatomically, the projections from FEF to V4 arise primarily from the supragranular layers, not layers which contain the highest proportion of motor activity (Barone et al. 2000, Pouget et al. 2009, Markov et al. 2013). Functionally, based on electrical identification of V4-projecting FEF neurons, we know that FEF to V4 projections are predominantly characterized by delay rather than motor activity (Merrikhi et al. 2017). We have now tried to emphasize these points when we introduce the inactivation experiments (lines 180-182).

      Experimentally, the spread of the pharmacological effect with our infusion system is quite large relative to any clustering of visual vs. motor neurons within the FEF, with behavioral consequences of inactivation spreading to cover a substantial portion of the visual hemifield (e.g., Noudoost et al. 2014, Clark et al. 2014), and so our manipulation lacks the spatial resolution to selectively target motor vs. other FEF neurons.

      (2) Somewhat related to this point and given the prominence of low-frequency activity in deeper layers of the visual cortex according to some previous studies, it is not clear where the authors' V4 recordings were located. The authors report that they do have data from linear arrays, so it should be possible to address this.

      Unfortunately our chamber placement for V4 has produced linear array penetration angles which do not reliably allow identification of cortical layers. We are aware of previous results showing layer-specific effects of attention in V4 (e.g., Pettine et al. 2019, Buffalo et al. 2011), and it would indeed be interesting to determine whether our observed WM-driven changes follow similar patterns. We may be able to analyze a subset of the data with current source density analysis to look for layer-specific effects in the future, but are not able to provide any information at this time.

      (3) The authors suggest that a change in the exact frequency of oscillation underlies the increase in firing rate for different stimulus features. However, the shift in frequency is prominent for contrast but not for orientation, something that raises questions about the general applicability of this observation for different visual features.

      We plan to incorporate statistical analysis of this point in the revised version.

      (4) One of the major points of the study is the primacy of the phase code over the rate code during the delay period. Specifically, here it is shown that information about the visual features of a stimulus carried by the rate code is similar for relevant and irrelevant locations during the delay period. This contrasts with what several studies have shown for attention in which case information carried in firing rates about stimuli in the attended location is enhanced relative to that for stimuli in the unattended location. If we are to understand how top-down signals work in cognitive functions it is inevitable to compare working memory with attention. The possible source of this difference is not clear and is not discussed. The reader is left wondering whether perhaps a different measure or analysis (e.g. a percent explained variance analysis) might reveal differences during the delay period for different visual features across the two spatial conditions.

      We have added discussion regarding the relationship of these results to previous findings during attention in the discussion section (lines 301-322).

      The use of the memory-guided saccade task has certain disadvantages in the context of this study. Although delay activity is interpreted as memory activity by the authors, it is in principle possible that it reflects preparation for the upcoming saccade, spatial attention (particularly since there is a stimulus in the RF), etc. This could potentially change the conclusion and perspective.

      We have added a new discussion paragraph addressing the relationship to attention and motor planning (lines 301-322). We have also moderated the language used to describe our conclusions throughout the manuscript in light of this ambiguity.

      For the position outside the V4 RF, there is a decrease in both beta oscillations and the clustering of spikes at a specific phase. It is therefore possible that the decrease in information about the stimuli features is a byproduct of the decrease in beta power and phase locking. Decreased oscillatory activity and phase locking can result in less reliable estimates of phase, which could decrease the mutual information estimates.

      We plan to incorporate statistical analysis of this point in the revised version.

      The authors propose that coherent oscillations could be the mechanism through which the prefrontal cortex influences beta activity in V4. I assume they mean coherent oscillations between the prefrontal cortex and V4. Given that they do have simultaneous recordings from the two areas they could test this hypothesis on their own data, however, they do not provide any results on that.

      This paper only includes inactivation data. We are working on analyzing the simultaneous recording data for a future publication.

      The authors make a strong point about the relevance of changes in the oscillation frequency and how this may result in an increase in firing rate although it could also be the reverse - an increase in firing rate leading to an increase in the frequency peak. It is not clear at all how these changes in frequency could come about. A more nuanced discussion based on both experimental and modeling data is necessary to appreciate the source and role (if any) of this observation.

      As the reviewer notes, it is difficult to determine whether the frequency changes drive the rate changes, vice versa, or whether both are generated in parallel by a common source. We have adjusted our language to reflect this (lines 277-278). Future modeling work may be able to shed more light on the causal relationships between various neural signatures.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this report, the authors test the necessity of prefrontal cortex (specifically, FEF) activity in driving changes in oscillatory power, spike rate, and spike timing of extrastriate visual cortex neurons during a visual-spatial working memory (WM) task. The authors recorded LFP and spikes in V4 while macaques remembered a single spatial location over a delay period during which task-irrelevant background gratings were displayed on the screen with varying orientation and contrast. V4 oscillations (in the beta range) scaled with WM maintenance, and the information encoded by spike timing relative to beta band LFP about the task-irrelevant background orientation depended on remembered location. They also compared recorded signals in V4 with and without muscimol inactivation of FEF, demonstrating the importance of FEF input for WM-induced changes in oscillatory amplitude, phase coding, and information encoded about background orientations. Finally, they built a network model that can account for some of these results. Together, these results show that FEF provides meaningful input to the visual cortex that is used to alter neural activity and that these signals can impact information coding of task-irrelevant information during a WM delay.

      Strengths:

      (1) Elegant and robust experiment that allows for clear tests for the necessity of FEF activity in WM-induced changes in V4 activity.

      (2) Comprehensive and broad analyses of interactions between LFP and spike timing provide compelling evidence for FEF-modulated phase coding of task-irrelevant stimuli at remembered location.

      (3) Convincing modeling efforts.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) 0% contrast background data (standard memory-guided saccade task) are not reported in the manuscript. While these data cannot be used to consider information content of spike rate/time about task-irrelevant background stimuli, this condition is still informative as a 'baseline' (and a more typical example of a WM task).

      We plan to incorporate statistical analysis of this point in the revised version.

      (2) Throughout the manuscript, the primary measurements of neural coding pertain to task-irrelevant stimuli (the orientation/contrast of the background, which is unrelated to the animal's task to remember a spatial location). The remembered location impacts the coding of these stimulus variables, but it's unclear how this relates to WM representations themselves.

      Indeed, here we have focused on how maintaining spatial WM impacts visual processing of incoming sensory information, rather than on how the spatial WM signal itself is represented and maintained. Behaviorally, this impact on visual signals could be related to the effects of the content of WM on perception and reaction times (e.g., Soto et al. 2008, Awh et al. 1998, Teng et al. 2019), but no such link to behavior is shown in our data.

    1. free movement of goods
      1. is there a cross-border element
      2. which freedom is at stake -> movement of goods a) what are the requirements + are they fulfilled?
      3. is there a restriction? a) which restriction (financial, Art. 30 TFEU / ORs, Art. 34 TFEU or MEEs? b) what are the requirements?
      4. Justification
      5. a) does it comply with Art. 36 TFEU (list of derogations)?
      6. b) is it proportional and necessary?
      7. c) for indistinctly applicable measures -> Cassis de Dijon criteria
    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public reviews

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review): 

      Summary: 

      In this study, Masroor Ahmad Paddar and his/her colleagues explore the noncanonical roles of ATG5 and membrane atg8ylation in regulating retromer assembly and function. They begin by examining the interactomes of ATG5 and expand the scope of these effects to include homeostatic responses to membrane stress and damage. 

      Strengths: 

      This study provides novel insights into the noncanonical function of ATG8ylation in endosomal cargo sorting process. 

      Weaknesses: 

      The direct mechanism by which ATG8ylation regulates the retromer remains unsolved. 

      We agree with the reviewer.  We do however show how at least one aspect of atg8ylation contributes to the proper retromer function, which occurs via lysosomal membrane maintenance and repair. Understanding the more direct effects on retromer will require a separate study. We now emphasize this in the revised manuscript (p. 18) and point out the limitations of the present work (p. 18): “One of the limitations of our study is that beyond effects of membrane atg8ylation on quality of lysosomal membrane and its homeostasis there could be more direct effects of membrane modification with mATG8s that still need to be understood”.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review): 

      Summary:

      Padder et al. demonstrate that ATG5 mediates lysosomal repair via the recruitment of the retromer components during LLOMe-induced lysosomal damage and that mAtg8-ylation contributes to retromer-dependent cargo sorting of GLUT1. Although previous studies have suggested that during glucose withdrawal, classical autophagy contributes to retromer-dependent GLUT1 surface trafficking via interactions between LC3A and TBC1D5, the experiments here demonstrate that during basal conditions or lysosomal damage, ATGs that are not involved in mATG8ylation, such as FIP200, are not functionally required for retromer-dependent sorting of GLUT1. Overall, these studies suggest a unique role for ATG5 in the control of retromer function, and that conjugation of ATG8 to single membranes (CASM) is a partial contributor to these phenotypes. 

      Strengths: 

      (1) Overall, these studies suggest a unique non-autophagic role for ATG5 in the control of retromer function. They also demonstrate that conjugation of ATG8 to single membranes (CASM) is a partial contributor to these phenotypes. Overall, these data point to a new role for ATG5 and CASM-dependent mATG8ylation in lysosomal membrane repair and trafficking. 

      (2) Although the studies are overall supportive of the proposed model that the retromer is controlled by CASM-dependent mATG8-ylaytion, it is noteworthy that previous studies of GLUT1 trafficking during glucose withdrawal (Roy et al. Mol Cell, PMID: 28602638) were predominantly conducted in cells lacking ATG5 or ATG7, which would not be able to discriminate between a CASM-dependent vs. canonical autophagy-dependent pathway in the control of GLUT1 sorting. Is the lack of GLUT1 mis-sorting to lysosomes observed in FIP200 and ATG13KO cells also observed during glucose withdrawal? Notably, deficiencies in glycolysis and glucose-dependent growth have been reported in FIP200 deficient fibroblasts (Wei et al. G&D, PMID: 21764854) so there may be differences in regulation dependent on the stress imposed on a cell. 

      We thank the reviewer for the overall assessment of the strengths of the study.  We have discussed in the manuscript the elegant study by Roy et al., PMID 28602683. To accommodate reviewer’s comment, we have additionally emphasized in the text that our study is focused on basal conditions and conditions that perturb endolysosomal compartments. We agree with the reviewer that under metabolic stress conditions (such as glucose limitation) more complex pathways may be engaged and have acknowledged that in the discussion. We have now included this in the limitations of the study (p. 18): “Another limitation of our study is that we have focused on basal conditions or conditions causing lysosomal damage, whereas metabolic stress including glucose excess or limitation with its multitude of metabolic effects have not been addressed”.

      Weaknesses: 

      (1) Additional controls are needed to clarify the role of CASM in the control of retromer function. Because the manuscript proposes both CASM-dependent and independent pathways in the ATG5 mediated regulation of the retromer, it is important to provide robust evidence that CASM is required for retromer-dependent GLUT1 sorting to the plasma membrane vs. lysosome. The experiments with monensin in Fig. 7C-E are consistent with but not unequivocally corroborative of a role for CASM. 

      We fully agree with the reviewer. In fact, our data with bafilomycin A1 treatment causing GLUT1 miss-sorting show that it is the perturbance of lysosomes  and not CASM per se that leads to mis-sorting of GLUT1 (Fig. 7D,E). Note that it has been shown (PMIDs: 28296541, 25484071 and 37796195) that although bafilomycin A1 deacidifies lysosomes it does not induce but instead inhibits CASM. This is because bafilomycin A1 causes dissociation of V1 and V0 sectors of V-ATPase, unlike other CASM-inducing agents which promote V1 V0 association. Complementing this, our data with ATG2AB DKO and ESCRT VPS37A KO (Fig. 8A-F) indicate that the repair of lysosomes is important to keep the retromer machinery functional (as illustrated in Fig. 8G). This may be one of the effector mechanisms downstream of membrane atg8ylation in general and hence also downstream of CASM. We have revised Fig. 7 title to read “Lysosomal perturbations cause GLUT1 mis-sorting” and have explained these relationships in the text (p. 12-13): “Since bafilomycin A1 does not induce CASM but disturbs luminal pH, we conclude that it is the less acidic luminal pH of the endolysosomal organelles, and not CASM, that is sufficient to interfere with the proper sorting of GLUT1.”

      Based on the results shown with ATG16KO in Fig 4A-D, rescue experiments of these 16KO cells with WT vs. C-terminal WD40 mutant versions of ATG16 will specifically assess the requirement for CASM and potentially provide more rigorous support for the conclusions drawn. 

      We have carried out complementation with ATG16L1 WT and its E230 mutant (devoid of WD40 repeats but still capable of canonical autophagy) and placed these data in Fig. 7 (panels I and J) as recommended by the reviewer. This is now described on p. 13 (To additionally test this notion, we compared ATG16L1 full length (ATG16L1FL) and ATG16L1E230 (Rai et al., PMID 30403914) for complementation of the GLUT1 sorting defect in ATG16L1 KO cells (Fig. 7I,J). ATG16L1E230 [Rai, 2019, 30403914] lacks the key domain to carry out CASM via binding to VATPase 29,30 31-33 but retains capacity to carry out atg8ylation.  Both ATG16L1FL and ATG16L1E230 complemented mis-sorting of GLUT1 (Fig. 7I,J). Collectively, these data indicate that it is not absence of CASM/VAIL but absence of membrane atg8ylation in general that promotes GLUT1 mis-sorting.).

      (2) Also, the role of TBC1D5 should be further clarified. In Fig S7, are there any changes in the interactions between TBC1D5 and VPS35 in response to LLOMe or other agents utilized to induce CASM? 

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. We do have data with VPS35 in co-IPs shown in Fig. S7.  There is no change in the amounts of VPS35 or TBC1D5 in GFP-LC3A co-IPs. We now include in Fig. S7 (new panel D) a graph with quantification in the revised manuscript and emphasize this point (p. 12): “However, under CASM-inducing conditions, no changes were detected (Fig. S7B-D) in interactions between TBC1D5 and LC3A or in levels of VPS35 in LC3A co-IP, a proxy for LC3A-TBC1D5-VPS29/retromer association. This suggests that CASM-inducing treatments and additionally bafilomycin A1 do not affect the status of the TBC1D5-Rab7 system”.        

      Does TBC1D5 loss-of-function modulate the numbers of GLUT1 and Gal3 puncta observed in ATG5 deficient cells in response to LLOMe? 

      We agree that TBC1D5 is an interesting aspect. However, because TBC1D5 does not change its interactions in the experiments in our study, we consider this topic (i.e. whether TBC1D5 phenocopies VPS35 and ATG5 KOs in its effects on Gal3) to be beyond the scope of the present work. We underscore that LLOMe (lysosomal damage) mis-sorts GLUT1 even without any genetic intervention (e.g., in WT cells in the absence of ATG5 KO; Fig. 7). Thus, in our opinion the effects of TBC1D5 inactivation may be a moot point.  

      (3) Finally, the studies here are motivated by experiments in Fig. S1 (as well as other studies from the Deretic and Stallings labs) suggesting unique autophagy-independent functions for ATG5 in myeloid cells and neutrophils in susceptibility to Mycobacterium tuberculosis infection. However, it is curious that no attempt is made to relate the mechanistic data regarding the retromer or GLUT1 receptor mis-sorting back to the infectious models. Do myeloid cells or neutrophils lacking ATG5 have deficiencies in glucose uptake or GLUT1 cell surface levels? 

      Reviewer’s point is well taken. Glucose uptake, its metabolism, and diabetes underly resurgence in TB in certain populations and are important factors in a range of other diseases. This was alluded to in our discussion (lines 461-469). However, these are complex topics for future studies. We have now expanded this section of the discussion (p. 18): “In the context of tuberculosis, diabetes, which includes glucose dysregulation, is associated with increased incidence of active disease and adverse outcomes” (Dheda et al., ,PMID: 26377143; Dooley, et al., PMID:19926034).

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review): 

      In this manuscript, Padder et al. used APEX2 proximity labeling to find an interaction between ATG5 and the core components of the Retromer complex, VPS26, VPS29, and VPS35. Further studies revealed that ATG5 KO inhibited the trafficking of GLUT1 to the plasma membrane. They also found that other autophagy genes involved in membrane atg8ylation affected GLUT1 sorting. However, knocking out other essential autophagy genes such as ATG13 and FIP200 did not affect GLUT1 sorting. These findings suggest that ATG5 participates in the function of the Retromer in a noncanonical autophagy manner. Overall, the methods and techniques employed by the authors largely support their conclusions. These findings are intriguing and significant, enriching our understanding of the non-autophagic functions of autophagy proteins and the sorting of GLUT1.

      Nevertheless, there are several issues that the authors need to address to further clarify their conclusions. 

      (1) The authors confirmed the interaction between Atg5 and the Retromer complex through Co-IP experiments. Is the interaction between Atg5 and the Retromer direct? If it is direct, which Retromer complex protein regulates the interaction with Atg5? Additionally, does ATG5 K130R mutant enhance its interaction with the Retromer? 

      AlphaFold modeling in the initial submission of our study to eLife (absent from the current version) suggested the possibility of a direct interaction between ATG5 and VPS35 with ATG12—ATG5 complex facing outwards, in which case K130R would not matter. However, mutational experiments in putative contact residues did not alter association in co-IPs. So either ATG5 interacts with other retromer subunits or more likely is in a larger protein complex containing retromer. It will take a separate study to dissect associations and find direct interaction partners. 

      (2) To more directly elucidate how ATG5 regulates Retromer function by interacting with the Retromer and participates in the trafficking of GLUT1 to the plasma membrane, the authors should identify which region or crucial amino acid residues of ATG5 regulate its interaction with the Retromer. Additionally, they should test whether mutations in ATG5 that disrupt its interaction with the Retromer affect Retromer function (such as participating in the trafficking of GLUT1 to the plasma membrane) and whether they affect Atg8ylation. They also need to assess whether these mutations influence canonical autophagy and lysosomal sensitivity to damage. 

      Please see the response to point 1.

      Recommendations for the authors.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      While most data are solid and convincing, the following questions need to be addressed before publication: 

      Major Concerns: 

      (1) Examining only one cargo (GLUT1) is insufficient to reflect the retromer's function comprehensively. At least two additional cargoes should be analyzed to observe the phenotypes more accurately. 

      We agree that having another retromer cargo (in addition to GLUT1) would be of interest. We point out that our data also show mis-sorting of SNX27 to lysosomes (Fig. 3H, quantifications in Fig. 3I).  SNX27 in turn sorts nearly 80 ion channels, signaling receptors, and other nutrient transporters. Which of the 80 cargos to prioritize and check (the expectation is that all 80 might be missorted given that they need SNX27)?  We have instead tested MPR, a SNX27-independent cargo. We now include data on effects of ATG5 knockout on CI-MPR (Fig. S9A-F). This is described in the text (p. 14; “Effect of ATG5 knockout on MPR sorting

      We tested whether ATG5 affects cation-independent mannose 6-phosphate receptor (CI-MPR). For this, we employed the previously developed methods (Fig. S9A) of monitoring retrograde trafficking of CI-MPR from the plasma membrane to the TGN 70,118-121. In the majority of such studies, CI-MPR antibody is allowed to bind to the extracellular domain of CI-MPR at the plasma membrane and its localization dynamics following endocytosis serves as a proxy for trafficking of CI-MPR. We used ATG5 KOs in HeLa and Huh7 cells and quantified by HCM retrograde trafficking to TGN of antibody-labeled CI-MPR at the cell surface, after being taken up by endocytosis and allowed to undergo intracellular sorting, followed by fixation and staining with TGN46 antibody. There was a minor but statistically significant reduction in CIMPR overlap with TGN46 in HeLaATG5-KO that was comparable to the reduction in HeLa cells when

      VPS35 was depleted by CRISPR (HeLaVPS35-KO) (Fig. S9B,C). Morphologically, endocytosed Ab-CI-

      MPR appeared dispersed in both HeLaATG5-KO and HeLaVPS35-KO cells relative to HeLaWT cells (Fig. S9D). Similar HCM results were obtained with Huh7 cells (WT vs. ATG5KO; Fig. S9E,F). We interpret these data as evidence of indirect action of ATG5 KO on CI-MPR sorting via membrane homeostasis, although we cannot exclude a direct sorting role via retromer. We favor the former interpretation based on the strength of the effect and the controversial nature of retromer engagement in sorting of CI-MPR (57,70,75,98,120).”)

      (2) The evidence from Alphafold predictions is weak. The direct interaction of ATG5 with retromer subunits should be tested. 

      Please see the above response to Reviewer 3.

      In addition, does retromer also interact with ATG16L1 similarly to the phenomenon in VAIL? 

      We fully agree with the reviewer that finding the direct interacting partners between retromer and membrane atg8ylation machinery is an important direction as in our opinion it would expand the repertoire of E3 ligases and its adaptors. However, given the complexity and variety of possibilities, we believe that this is a topic for a future study.  

      (3) In Line 166, Figures 2C and 2D, the Gal3 phenotype does not seem to be well complemented by VPS35. 

      We have adjusted the text to acknowledge incomplete complementation (p.7). 

      (4) In Figures 3 and 4, the authors show that KO of membrane atg8ylation machineries and ATG8-Hexa KO affects the localization of retromer cargo GLUT1 and SNX27. However, the mechanism by which membrane ATG8ylation affects retromer remains unresolved.

      Additionally, are other retromer subunits' locations are also affected, if so, how are they impacted? At least a speculative explanation should be provided. 

      Following reviewers request, we now state on p. 19 that “one of the limitations of our study is that beyond effects of membrane atg8ylation on quality of lysosomal membrane and its homeostasis there could be more direct effects of membrane modification with mATG8s on retromer that still need to be understood”.

      (5) In Figure 3, endogenous IP results are required to examine the interaction of ATG5 with retromer if suitable retromer antibodies for IP are available. 

      Endogenous IPs are given in Fig. 1. We have modified text on p. 8 to clarify this.

      (6) In Figure 4, ATG8 Hexa KO, and triple KO of LC3s or GABARAPs all increase the localization of GLUT1 on lysosomes. It seems redundant for ATG8 family proteins here.

      Can any individual member of the ATG8 family rescue this phenotype? 

      If the intent of such complementation analysis is to identify a specific mATG8 responsible for the observed effects, this is already pre-empted by the fact that TKOs also have a similar effect as HEXA mutants (i.e. loss of at least two of mATG8s is enough to cause the phenotype). We now discuss this in the text (p. 10): “Thus, at least two mATG8s, each one from two different mATG8 subclasses (LC3s and GABARAPs) or the entire membrane atg8ylation machinery was engaged in and required for proper GLUT-1 sorting”.  

      (7) In Figure 5, knockdown of ATG5 in FIP200 KO cells inhibited GLUT1 sorting from endosomes, leading to its trafficking to lysosomes. However, it is known that very little remnant ATG5 in ATG5 KD cells is enough to support ATG8 lipidation. Therefore, it is essential to repeat this experiment using ATG5/FIP200 double KO or ATG5 KO combined with an autophagy inhibitor. 

      We point out to this limitation in the text (p. 11): “….we knocked down ATG5 in FIP200 KO cells (Fig. S5D) and found that GLUT1 puncta and GLUT1+LAMP2+ profiles increased even in the FIP200 KO background with the effects nearing those of VPS35 knockout (Figs. 5D-F and S5C), with the difference between VPS35 KO and ATG5 KD attributable to any residual ATG5 levels in cells subjected to siRNA knockdowns”.

      (8) In Figure 7, the authors show that the induction of CASM inhibited GLUT1 sorting from endosomes. However, ATG5 KO, which abolishes membrane ATG8ylation, also inhibits GLUT1 sorting. This seems paradoxical and requires a reasonable explanation or discussion. 

      We understand reviewer’s comment. The answer to this paradox is that it is actually the lysosomal damage that causes GLUT1 mis-sorting and not CASM. Membrane atg8ylation, such as CASM and probably other processes given that involvement of both ATG2 and ESCRTs (Fig. 8) counteracts the damage and works in the direction of restoring/maintaining proper retromer-dependent sorting. This is now explained better in the text, and have revised the title of Fig. 7 to read “Lysosomal damage causes GLUT1 mis-sorting”. Our data with bafilomycin A1 show that it is the perturbance of lysosomes (not CASM per se) that leads to mis-sorting of GLUT1 (Fig. 7D,E), and our data with ATG2AB DKO and ESCRT (VPS37A) KO (Fig. 8A-F) indicate that repair of lysosomes is important to keep the retromer working machinery functional (as illustrated in Fig. 8G), which may be one of the effector mechanisms downstream of membrane atg8ylation  in general (and hence also of CASM).  

      (9) The immuno-staining results for Figures 7F and 7G are lacking. 

      We now provide the requested images.

      (10) In Figure 8D, the quality of the image for VPS37 KO cells treated with LLOME is not sufficient to show increased colocalization between GLUT1 and LAMP2. 

      We now provide a different example image. We note that these are epiflorescent HCM images  

      Minor Concerns: 

      (1) It would be better to distinguish the function of the membrane ATG8ylation machinery (i.e., ATG5) from the function of membrane ATG8ylation in the description. No ATG8ylation-deficient mutants were used in this study. 

      We have used atg8ylation mutants (e.g. KOs in ATG3, ATG5, ATG7, and ATG16L1). We now emphasize this better in the text (p. 10). 

      (2) In Figure 2D, a green box appears there by incident. 

      This has been fixed.

      (3) In Figure 3A, the conjugate for ATG5-ATG12 is absent in the gel for IB: ATG5.

      The ATG5 antibody used in Fig. 3A recognizes primarily the conjugated form of ATG5. This is now clarified in the figure legend. 

      (4) Figure 5G is missing in the manuscript. 

      Fig 5G is now mentioned in the text. Thank you.

      (5) The gRNA sequence information for FIP200 KO is missing in the Methods section. 

      Reference(s) to the already published gRNA sequence are in the manuscript. 

      (6) Suggest moving the last paragraph in Result section to Discussion section. 

      We kept this single-paragraph section in Results as it contains actual data.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      (1) It is unclear why the rescue of VPS35KO cells in Fig 1C-D is so modest. 

      Complementation data depend on transfection efficiency and some variability is to be expected.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      (1) Figures 2A, 2C, 2E, and 2G lack scale bars. Figure 2D has a small square above the y axis. 

      Relative scale bars are now included. 

      (2) Figures S3B, S3D, and S3F lack scale bars. 

      Relative scale bars are now included.

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Overall I found the approach taken by the authors to be clear and convincing. It is striking that the conclusions are similar to those obtained in a recent study using a different computational approach (finite state controllers), and lend confidence to the conclusions about the existence of an optimal memory duration. There are a few points or questions that could be addressed in greater detail in a revision:

      (1) Discussion of spatial encoding

      The manuscript contrasts the approach taken here (reinforcement learning in a grid world) with strategies that involve a "spatial map" such as infotaxis. The authors note that their algorithm contains "no spatial information." However, I wonder if further degrees of spatial encoding might be delineated to better facilitate comparisons with biological navigation algorithms. For example, the gridworld navigation algorithm seems to have an implicit allocentric representation, since movement can be in one of four allocentric directions (up, down, left, right). I assume this is how the agent learns to move upwind in the absence of an explicit wind direction signal. However, not all biological organisms likely have this allocentric representation. Can the agent learn the strategy without wind direction if it can only go left/right/forward/back/turn (in egocentric coordinates)? In discussing possible algorithms, and the features of this one, it might be helpful to distinguish<br /> (1) those that rely only on egocentric computations (run and tumble),<br /> (2) those that rely on a single direction cue such as wind direction,<br /> (3) those that rely on allocentric representations of direction, and<br /> (4) those that rely on a full spatial map of the environment.

      (2) Recovery strategy on losing the plume

      While the approach to encoding odor dynamics seems highly principled and reaches appealingly intuitive conclusions, the approach to modeling the recovery strategy seems to be more ad hoc. Early in the paper, the recovery strategy is defined to be path integration back to the point at which odor was lost, while later in the paper, the authors explore Brownian motion and a learned recovery based on multiple "void" states. Since the learned strategy works best, why not first consider learned strategies, and explore how lack of odor must be encoded or whether there is an optimal division of void states that leads to the best recovery strategies? Also, although the authors state that the learned recovery strategies resemble casting, only minimal data are shown to support this. A deeper statistical analysis of the learned recovery strategies would facilitate comparison to those observed in biology.

      (3) Is there a minimal representation of odor for efficient navigation?

      The authors suggest (line 280) that the number of olfactory states could potentially be reduced to reduce computational cost. This raises the question of whether there is a maximally efficient representation of odors and blanks sufficient for effective navigation. The authors choose to represent odor by 15 states that allow the agent to discriminate different spatial regimes of the stimulus, and later introduce additional void states that allow the agent to learn a recovery strategy. Can the number of states be reduced or does this lead to loss of performance? Does the optimal number of odor and void states depend on the spatial structure of the turbulence as explored in Figure 5?

    2. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors investigate the problem of olfactory search in turbulent environments using artificial agents trained using tabular Q-learning, a simple and interpretable reinforcement learning (RL) algorithm. The agents are trained solely on odor stimuli, without access to spatial information or prior knowledge about the odor plume's shape. This approach makes the emergent control strategy more biologically plausible for animals navigating exclusively using olfactory signals. The learned strategies show parallels to observed animal behaviors, such as upwind surging and crosswind casting. The approach generalizes well to different environments and effectively handles the intermittency of turbulent odors.

      Strengths:

      (1) The use of numerical simulations to generate realistic turbulent fluid dynamics sets this paper apart from studies that rely on idealized or static plumes.

      (2) A key innovation is the introduction of a small set of interpretable olfactory states based on moving averages of odor intensity and sparsity, coupled with an adaptive temporal memory.

      (3) The paper provides a thorough analysis of different recovery strategies when an agent loses the odor trail, offering insights into the trade-offs between various approaches.

      (4) The authors provide a comprehensive performance analysis of their algorithm across a range of environments and recovery strategies, demonstrating the versatility of the approach.

      (5) Finally, the authors list an interesting set of real-world experiments based on their findings, that might invite interest from experimentalists across multiple species.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The inclusion of Brownian motion as a recovery strategy, seems odd since it doesn't closely match natural animal behavior, where circling (e.g. flies) or zigzagging (ants' "sector search") could have been more realistic.

      (2) Using tabular Q-learning is both a strength and a limitation. It's simple and interpretable, making it easier to analyze the learned strategies, but the discrete action space seems somewhat unnatural. In real-world biological systems, actions (like movement) are continuous rather than discrete. Additionally, the ground-frame actions may not map naturally to how animals navigate odor plumes (e.g. insects often navigate based on their own egocentric frame).

      (3) The lack of accompanying code is a major drawback since nowadays open access to data and code is becoming a standard in computational research. Given that the turbulent fluid simulation is a key element that differentiates this paper, the absence of simulation and analysis code limits the study's reproducibility.

    3. Author response:

      We thank the Editor and Reviewers for their work on our manuscript, and are happy to receive their positive comments, as well as their questions and suggestions. We are currently revising the manuscript and are planning to de-emphasize Brownian recovery as a simple yet biologically irrelevant benchmark and include comparisons with other biologically inspired strategies suggested by the reviewers. As for sharing the code and data: we completely agree: dataset 1 is already public and we will share the other dataset as well as the code. In a nutshell, we will be addressing the referee’s suggestions as follows:

      (1)   As Referee 1 points out, even if the algorithm does not require a map of space, the agent is still required to tell apart North, East, South and West relative to the wind direction which is implicitly assumed known. We will better clarify the spatial encoding required to implement these strategies.

      (2)   Referee 1 remarks that the learned recovery strategy works best and suggests to give it a more prominent role and better characterize it. We agree that what is done in the void state is definitely key and more work is needed to understand it. In the revised manuscript, we are planning to further substantiate the statistics of the learned recovery by repeating training several times and comparing several trajectories. Note that this strategy is much more flexible than the others and could potentially mix aspects of recovery to aspects of exploitation: we defer a more in-depth analysis that disentangles these two aspects elsewhere.

      (3)   Referee 1 asks whether an optimal, minimal representation of the olfactory states exists. Q learning defines the olfactory states prior to training and does not allow to systematically optimize odor representation for the task. Given the odor features, we can however discretize them in more or less olfactory states. We expect that decreasing the number of olfactory states provides less positional information and potentially degrades performance, although loss in performance may be overshadowed by noise or by efficient recovery. We are planning to re-train our model with a smaller numer of non-void states and will provide the comparison. The number of void states does not need further testing: we chose 50 void states because it matches the time agents typically remain in the void and indeed achieves very high performance (less than 50 void states results in no convergence and more than 50 introduces states that are rarely visited)

      (4)   Both reviewers correctly remark that Brownian motion is not biologically relevant. We will make sure to further clarify that this is a rather simple --but biologically irrelevant-- benchmark. We are planning to include results with both circling and zigzaging as biologically inspired recovery strategies.

      (5)   We agree with reviewer 2 that animal locomotion does not look like a series of discrete displacements on a checkerboard. However, to overcome this limitation, one has to first focus on a specific system to define actions in a way that best adheres to a species’ motor controls. Second, these actions are likely continuous, which makes reinforcement learning notoriously more complex. While we agree that more realistic models are definitely needed for a comparison with real systems, this remains outside the scope of the current work.

      (6)   We agree with the referees and editor that it is important to publish the code and data alongside with the manuscript. It was already planned and we will make sure to share the links within the revised version of the manuscript.

    1. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      The paper by Nelson KA, et al. explored the collective migration, coalescence and positioning of the posterior signaling center (PSC) cells in Drosophila embryo. With live imaging, the authors observed the dynamic progress of PSC migration. Throughout this process, visceral mesoderm (VM), alary muscles (Ams) and cardioblasts (CBs) are in proximity of PSC. Genetic ablation of these tissues reveals the requirement for VM and CBs, but not AMs in this process. Genetic manipulations further demonstrated that Slit-Robo signaling was critical during PSC migration and positioning. While the genetic mechanisms of positioning the PSC were explored in much detail, including using live imaging, the functional consequence of mispositioning or (partial) absence of PSC cells has not been addressed, but would much increase the relevance of their findings. A few additional issues need to be addressed as well in this otherwise well-done study.

      Previous major points:

      (1) The only readout in their experiments is the relative correctness of PSC positioning. Importantly, what is the functional consequence if PSC is not properly positioned? This would be particularly important with robo-sli manipulations, where the PSC is present but some cells are misplaced. What is the consequence? Are the LGs affected, like specification of their cell types, structure and function? To address this for at least the robo-slit requirement in the PSC, it may be important to manipulate them directly in the PSC with a split Gal4 system, using Antp and Odd promoters.

      (2) The densely, parallel aligned fibers in the lower part of Figure 1J seemed to be visceral mesoderm, but further up (dorsally) that may be epidermis. It is possible that the PSC migrate together with the epidermis? This should be addressed.

      (3) Although the authors described the standards of assessing PSC positioning as "normal" or "abnormal", it is rather subtle at times and variable in the mutant or KD/OE examples. The criteria should be more clearly delineated and analyzed double-blind, also since this is the only readout. Further examples of abnormal positioning in supplementary figures would also help.

      (4) Discussion is very lengthy and should shortened.

      Comments on revised version:

      Although the authors have responded to my concerns as they deemed suitable, these concerns still stand for the revised version.

    2. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the current reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The study by Nelson et al. is focused on formation of the Drosophila Posterior Signaling Center (PSC) which ultimately acts as a niche to support hematopoietic stem cells of the lymph gland (LG). Using a combination of genetics and live imaging, the authors show that PSC cells migrate as a tight collective and associate with multiple tissues during a trajectory that positions them at the posterior of the LG.

      This is an important study that identifies Slit-Robo signaling as a regulator of PSC morphogenesis, and highlights the complex relationship of interacting cell types - PSC, visceral mesoderm (VM) and cardioblasts (CBs) - in coordinated development of these three tissues during organ development. However, one point requiring clarification is the idea that PSC cells exhibit a collective cell migration; it is not clear that the cells are migrating rather than being pushed to a more dorsal position through dorsal closure and/or other similar large scale embryo movement. This does not detract from the very interesting analysis of PSC morphogenesis as presented.

      This Public Review by Reviewer #1 is identical to their original Public Review, thus we are unsure whether Reviewer #1 assessed the revised version of our manuscript, and whether they read our responses to their original Public Review. Below we summarize our original responses to the weaknesses listed for the first version of our manuscript.

      Strengths:

      • Using expression of Hid or Grim to ablate associated tissues, they find evidence that the VM and CB of the dorsal vessel affect PSC migration/morphology whereas the alary muscles do not. Slit is expressed by both VM and CBs, and therefore Slit-Robo signaling was investigated as PSCs express Robo.

      • Using a combination of approaches, the authors convincingly demonstrate that Slit expression in the CBs and VM acts to support PSC positioning. A strength is the ability to knockdown slit levels in particular tissue types using the Gal4 system and RNAi.

      • Although in the analysis of robo mutants, the PSC positioning phenotype is weaker in the individual mutants (robo1 and robo2) with only the double mutant (robo1,robo2) exhibiting a phenotype comparable to the slit RNAi. The authors make a reasonable argument that Slit-Robo signaling has an intrinsic effect, likely acting within PSCs, because PSCs show a phenotype even when CBs do not (Fig 4G).

      • New insight into dorsal vessel formation by VM is presented in Fig 4A,B, as loss of the VM can affect dorsal vessel morphogenesis. This result additionally points to the VM as important.

      Weaknesses:

      • The authors are cautioned to temper the result that Slit-Robo signaling is intrinsic to PSC since loss of robo may affect other cell types (besides CBs and PSCs) to indirectly affect PSC migration/morphogenesis. In fact, in the robo2, robo1 mutant, the VM appears to be incorrectly positioned (Fig. 4G).

      We maintain our conclusion, and, we point out that the Reviewer stated, “The authors make a reasonable argument that Slit-Robo signaling has an intrinsic effect, likely acting within PSCs”. We already added a statement to the Discussion reminding the reader of the possibility of secondary defects (“Finally, it is possible that PSC cells do not intrinsically require Robo activation, but rather CB-independent PSC mis-positioning in sli or robo mutants could be a secondary defect caused by compromised Slit-Robo signaling in some other tissue.”).

      • If possible, the authors should use RNAi to knockdown Robo1 and Robo2 levels specifically in the PSCs if a Gal4 is available; might Antp.Gal4 (Fig 1K) be useful? Even if knockdown is achieved in PSCs+CBs, this would be a better/complementary experiment to support the approach outlined in Fig 4D.

      As described in our first response, use of Antp-GAL4 with RNAi would be no better than a whole animal double Robo mutant.

      • Movies are hard to interpret, as it seems unclear that the PSCs actively migrate rather than being pushed/moved indirectly due to association with VM and CBs/dorsal vessel.

      Vm does not directly contact the PSC, so the Vm cannot be physically pushing the PSC. In their original review, Reviewer #3 expressed similar concerns (Weaknesses #1 and #2), and upon their review of our revised manuscript they determined we addressed these concerns.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      The paper by Nelson KA, et al. explored the collective migration, coalescence and positioning of the posterior signaling center (PSC) cells in Drosophila embryo. With live imaging, the authors observed the dynamic progress of PSC migration. Throughout this process, visceral mesoderm (VM), alary muscles (Ams) and cardioblasts (CBs) are in proximity of PSC. Genetic ablation of these tissues reveals the requirement for VM and CBs, but not AMs in this process. Genetic manipulations further demonstrated that Slit-Robo signaling was critical during PSC migration and positioning. While the genetic mechanisms of positioning the PSC were explored in much detail, including using live imaging, the functional consequence of mispositioning or (partial) absence of PSC cells has not been addressed, but would much increase the relevance of their findings. A few additional issues need to be addressed as well in this otherwise well-done study.

      Previous major points:

      (1) The only readout in their experiments is the relative correctness of PSC positioning. Importantly, what is the functional consequence if PSC is not properly positioned? This would be particularly important with robo-sli manipulations, where the PSC is present but some cells are misplaced. What is the consequence? Are the LGs affected, like specification of their cell types, structure and function? To address this for at least the robo-slit requirement in the PSC, it may be important to manipulate them directly in the PSC with a split Gal4 system, using Antp and Odd promoters.

      We state in our original response that exploring the functional consequences of PSC mis-positioning was outside the scope of this study. Given that the necessary cis-regulatory modules have not been identified at Antp or Odd, creating a split-GAL4 with ‘Antp and Odd promoters’ cannot be accomplished in a reasonable time frame, as we previously detailed in our original response.

      (2) The densely, parallel aligned fibers in the lower part of Figure 1J seemed to be visceral mesoderm, but further up (dorsally) that may be epidermis. It is possible that the PSC migrate together with the epidermis? This should be addressed.

      This was directly addressed by the additional data included in our revision. When epidermal closure is stalled, the PSC is able to migrate past the stalled leading edge, closer to the midline.

      (3) Although the authors described the standards of assessing PSC positioning as "normal" or "abnormal", it is rather subtle at times and variable in the mutant or KD/OE examples. The criteria should be more clearly delineated and analyzed double-blind, also since this is the only readout. Further examples of abnormal positioning in supplementary figures would also help.

      We addressed this comment in detail in our original response. Briefly, double-blinding was oftentimes not possible due to the obviousness of the genotype in the image. The criteria we outline for normal PSC positioning is as comprehensive as possible given the subtlety variability of mis-positioning phenotypes. Two of the authors independently analyzed the relatively large sets of samples and arrived at the same conclusions.

      (4) Discussion is very lengthy and should shortened.

      We shortened the Discussion in the revised version.

      Comments on revised version:

      Although the authors have responded to my concerns as they deemed suitable, these concerns still stand for the revised version.

      Given our responses above and the lack of detail in this comment, we are unsure why the Reviewer is still concerned.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This work is a detailed and thorough analysis of the morphogenesis of the posterior signaling center (PSC), a hematopoietic niche in the Drosophila larva. Live imaging is performed from the stage of PSC determination until the appearance of a compact lymph gland and PSC in the stage 16 embryo. This analysis is combined with genetic studies that clarify the involvement of adjacent tissue, including the visceral mesoderm, alary muscle, and cardioblasts/dorsal vessel. Lastly, the Slit/Robo signaling system is clearly implicated in the normal formation of the PSC.

      Strengths:

      The data are clearly presented and well documented, and fully support the conclusions drawn from the different experiments.

      The authors have addressed all of my previous comments, in particular concerning the role of epidermal cell rearrangements during dorsal closure as a possible force acting on the movement of PSC cells. The authors have clarified their definition of "collective migration" as it applies to the movement of PSC. The revised paper will make an important contribution to our understanding of the mechanisms driving morphogenesis.

      We are appreciative of the time spent by the Reviewer reading our responses and assessing the revision.

      ---------

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The study by Nelson et al. is focused on the formation of the Drosophila Posterior Signaling Center (PSC) which ultimately acts as a niche to support hematopoietic stem cells of the lymph gland (LG). Using a combination of genetics and live imaging, the authors show that PSC cells migrate as a tight collective and associate with multiple tissues during a trajectory that positions them at the posterior of the LG.

      This is an important study that identifies Slit-Robo signaling as a regulator of PSC morphogenesis, and highlights the complex relationship of interacting cell types - PSC, visceral mesoderm (VM), and cardioblasts (CBs) - in the coordinated development of these three tissues during organ development. However, one point requiring clarification is the idea that PSC cells exhibit a collective cell migration; it is not clear that the cells are migrating rather than being pushed to a more dorsal position through dorsal closure and/or other similar large-scale embryo movement. This does not detract from the very interesting analysis of PSC morphogenesis as presented.

      Since each referee asked for clarification concerning collective cell migration, we present a combined response further below, placed after the comments from Reviewer #3.

      Strengths:

      (1) Using the expression of Hid or Grim to ablate associated tissues, they find evidence that the VM and CB of the dorsal vessel affect PSC migration/morphology whereas the alary muscles do not. Slit is expressed by both VM and CBs, and therefore Slit-Robo signaling was investigated as PSCs express Robo.

      (2) Using a combination of approaches, the authors convincingly demonstrate that Slit expression in the CBs and VM acts to support PSC positioning. A strength is the ability to knockdown slit levels in particular tissue types using the Gal4 system and RNAi.

      (3) Although in the analysis of robo mutants, the PSC positioning phenotype is weaker in the individual mutants (robo1 and robo2) with only the double mutant (robo1,robo2) exhibiting a phenotype comparable to the slit RNAi. The authors make a reasonable argument that Slit-Robo signaling has an intrinsic effect, likely acting within PSCs because PSCs show a phenotype even when CBs do not (Figure 4G).

      (4) New insight into dorsal vessel formation by VM is presented in Figure 4A, B, as loss of the VM can affect dorsal vessel morphogenesis. This result additionally points to the VM as important.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The authors are cautioned to temper the result that Slit-Robo signaling is intrinsic to PSC since the loss of robo may affect other cell types (besides CBs and PSCs) to indirectly affect PSC migration/morphogenesis. In fact, in the robo2, robo1 mutant, the VM appears to be incorrectly positioned (Figure 4G).

      We have reexamined our wording in the relevant Results section and, given that this referee agrees that we, “make a reasonable argument that Slit-Robo signaling has an intrinsic effect, likely acting within PSCs because PSCs show a phenotype even when CBs do not (Figure 4G)”, it was not clear how we might temper our conclusions more. Given that PSC cells express Robo1 and Robo2, and that the Vm does not contact the PSC, our ‘reasonable argument’ appears fair and parsimonious. Since we agree with the referee that a reader should be made as aware as possible of alternatives, we will add a comment to the Discussion, reminding the reader of the possibility of a secondary defect.

      (2) If possible, the authors should use RNAi to knockdown Robo1 and Robo2 levels specifically in the PSCs if a Gal4 is available; might Antp.Gal4 (Fig 1K) be useful? Even if knockdown is achieved in PSCs+CBs, this would be a better/complementary experiment to support the approach outlined in Figure 4D.

      While we agree that PSC-specific knockdown of Robo1 and Robo2 simultaneously would be ideal, this is not possible. First, the most-effective UAS-RNAi transgenes (that is, those in a Valium 20 backbone) are both integrated at the same chromosomal position; these cannot be simultaneously crossed with a GAL4 transgenic line to attempt double knock down. Additionally, as with all RNAi approaches that must rely on efficient knockdown over the rapid embryonic period, even having facile access to the above does not ensure the RNAi approach will cause as effective depletion as the genetic null condition that we use. Second, as the referee concedes, there is no embryonic PSC-specific GAL4. The proposed use of Antp-GAL4 would cause knockdown in many tissues (PSC, CB, Vm, epidermis and amnioserosa). This would lead to a reservation similar to that caused by our use of the straight genetic double mutant, as regards potential indirect requirement for Robo function.

      (3) Movies are hard to interpret, as it seems unclear that the PSCs actively migrate rather than being pushed/moved indirectly due to association with VM and CBs/dorsal vessel.

      First, the Vm does not directly contact the PSC, so it cannot be pushing the PSC dorsally. We will re-examine our text to be certain to make this clear. Second, in our analysis of bin mutants, which lack Vm, LGs and PSCs are able to reach the dorsal midline region in the absence of Vm. Finally, please see our response to Reviewer #3, point 2, for why we maintain that PSC cells are “migrating” even though some PSC cells are attached to CBs.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      The paper by Nelson KA, et al. explored the collective migration, coalescence, and positioning of the posterior signaling center (PSC) cells in Drosophila embryo. With live imaging, the authors observed the dynamic progress of PSC migration. Throughout this process, visceral mesoderm (VM), alary muscles (Ams), and cardioblasts (CBs) are in proximity to PSC. Genetic ablation of these tissues reveals the requirement for VM and CBs, but not AMs in this process. Genetic manipulations further demonstrated that Slit-Robo signaling was critical during PSC migration and positioning. While the genetic mechanisms of positioning the PSC were explored in much detail, including using live imaging, the functional consequence of mispositioning or (partial) absence of PSC cells has not been addressed, but would much increase the relevance of their findings. A few additional issues need to be addressed as well in this otherwise well-done study.

      Major points:

      (1) The only readout in their experiments is the relative correctness of PSC positioning. Importantly, what is the functional consequence if PSC is not properly positioned? This would be particularly important with robo-sli manipulations, where the PSC is present but some cells are misplaced. What is the consequence? Are the LGs affected, like the specification of their cell types, structure, and function? To address this for at least the robo-slit requirement in the PSC, it may be important to manipulate them directly in the PSC with a split Gal4 system, using Antp and Odd promoters.

      We agree that the functional consequence of PSC mis-positioning is important and a relevant question to eventually address. However, virtually all markers and reagents used to assess the effect of the PSC on progenitor cells and their differentiated descendants are restricted to analyses carried out on the third larval instar - some three days after the experiments reported here. Most of the manipulated conditions in our work are no longer viable at this phase and, thus, addressing the functional consequences of a malformed PSC will require the field to develop new tools. 

      As we noted in the Introduction, the consistency with which the wildtype PSC forms as a coalesced collective at the posterior of the LG strongly suggests importance of its specific positioning and shape, as has now been found for other niches (citations in manuscript). Additionally, in the Discussion we mention the existence of a gap junction-dependent calcium signaling network in the PSC that is important for progenitor maintenance. Without continuity of this network amongst all PSC cells (under conditions of PSC mis-positioning), we strongly anticipate that the balance of progenitors to differentiated hemocytes will be mis-managed, either constitutively, and / or under immune challenge conditions. 

      Finally, to our knowledge, the tools do not exist to build a “split Gal4 system using Antp and Odd promoters”. The expression pattern observed using the genomic Antp-GAL4 line must be driven by endogenous enhancers–none of which have been defined by the field, and thus cannot be used in constructing second order drivers. Similarly, for odd skipped, in the embryo the extant Odd-GAL4 driver expresses only in the epidermis, with no expression in the embryonic LG. Thus, the cis regulatory element controlling Odd expression in the embryonic LG is unknown. In the future, the discovery of an embryonic PSC-specific driver will aid in addressing the specific functional consequences of PSC mis-positioning.

      (2) The densely, parallel aligned fibers in the part of Figure 1J seemed to be visceral mesoderm, but further up (dorsally) that may be epidermis. It is possible that the PSC migrate together with the epidermis? This should be addressed.

      See response to Reviewer #3.

      (3) Although the authors described the standards of assessing PSC positioning as "normal" or "abnormal", it is rather subtle at times and variable in the mutant or KD/OE examples. The criteria should be more clearly delineated and analyzed double-blind, also since this is the only readout. Further examples of abnormal positioning in supplementary figures would also help.

      We appreciate the Reviewer’s concern and acknowledge that the phenotypes we observed were indeed variable, and, at times subtle. As we show and discuss in the paper, our results revealed that the signaling requirements for proper PSC positioning are complex; this was favorably commented upon by Reviewer #1 (“...highlights the complex relationship of interacting cell types - PSC, visceral mesoderm (VM), and cardioblasts (CBs) - in the coordinated development of these three tissues during organ development.…”). We suspect the phenotypic variability is attributable to any number of biological differences such as heterogeneity of PSC cells and an accompanying difference in the timing of their competence to receive and respond to Slit-Robo signaling, the timing of release of Slit from CBs and Vm, number of cells in a given PSC, which PSC cells in the cluster respond to too little or too much signaling, and/or typical variability between organisms. Furthermore, PSC positioning analyses were conducted by two of the authors, who independently came to the same conclusions. For many of the manipulations double blinding was not possible since the genotype of the embryo was discernible due to the obvious phenotype of the manipulated tissue.

      (4) The Discussion is very lengthy and should shortened.

      We will re-examine the prose and emphasize more conciseness, while maintaining clarity for the reader.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This work is a detailed and thorough analysis of the morphogenesis of the posterior signaling center (PSC), a hematopoietic niche in the Drosophila larva. Live imaging is performed from the stage of PSC determination until the appearance of a compact lymph gland and PSC in the stage 16 embryo. This analysis is combined with genetic studies that clarify the involvement of adjacent tissue, including the visceral mesoderm, alary muscle, and cardioblasts/dorsal vessels. Lastly, the Slit/Robo signaling system is clearly implicated in the normal formation of the PSC.

      Strengths:

      The data are clearly presented, well documented, and fully support the conclusions drawn from the different experiments. The manuscript differs in character from the mainstay of "big data" papers (for example, no sets of single-cell RNAseq data of, for instance, PSC cells with more or less Slit input, are offered), but what it lacks in this regard, it makes up in carefully planned and executed visualizations and genetic manipulations.

      Weaknesses:

      A few suggestions concerning improvement of the way the story is told and contextualized.

      (1) The minute cluster of PSC progenitors (5 or so cells per side) is embedded (as known before and shown nicely in this study) in other "migrating" cell pools, like the cardioblasts, pericardial cells, lymph gland progenitors, alary muscle progenitors. These all appear to move more or less synchronously. What should also be mentioned is another tissue, the dorsal epidermis, which also "moves" (better: stretches?) towards the dorsal midline during dorsal closure. Would it be reasonable to speculate (based on previously published data) that without the force of dorsal closure, operating in the epidermis, at least the lateral>medial component of the "migration" of the PSC (and neighboring tissues) would be missing? If dorsal closure is blocked, do essential components of PSC and lymph gland morphogenesis (except for the coming-together of the left and right halves) still occur? Are there any published data on this?

      Each of the Reviewers is interested in our response to this very relevant question, and, thus, we will address the issue en bloc here. First, we will add a Supplementary Figure showing that LG and CBs are still able to progress medially towards the dorsal midline when dorsal closure stalls.  This rules out any major effect for the most prominent “large-scale embryo cell sheet movement” in positioning the PSC. Second, published work by Haack et. al. and Balaghi et. al. shows that CBs and leading edge epidermal cells are independently migratory, and we will add this context to the manuscript for the reader.

      (2) Along similar lines: the process of PSC formation is characterized as "migration". To be fair: the authors bring up the possibility that some of the phenotypes they observe could be "passive"/secondary: "Thus, it became important to test whether all PSC phenotypes might be 'passive', explained by PSC attachment to a malforming dorsal vessel. Alternatively, the PSC defects could reflect a requirement for Robo activation directly in PSC cells." And the issue is resolved satisfactorily. But more generally, "cell migration" implies active displacement (by cytoskeletal forces) of cells relative to a substrate or to their neighbors (like for example migration of hemocytes). This to me doesn't seem really clearly to happen here for the dorsal mesodermal structures. Couldn't one rather characterize the assembly of PSC, lymph gland, pericardial cells, and dorsal vessel in terms of differential adhesion, on top of a more general adhesion of cells to each other and the epidermis, and then dorsal closure as a driving force for cell displacement? The authors should bring in the published literature to provide a background that does (or does not) justify the term "migration".

      Before addressing this specifically, we remind readers of our response above that states the rationale ruling out large, embryo-scale movements, such as epidermal dorsal closure, in driving PSC positioning. So, how are PSC cells arriving at their reproducible position? This manuscript reports the first live-imaging of the PSC as it comes to be positioned in the embryo. We interpret these movies to suggest strongly that these cells are a ‘collective’ that migrates. Neither the data, nor we, are asserting that each PSC cell is ‘individually’ migrating to its final position. Rather, our data suggest that the PSC migrates as a collective. The most paradigmatic example of directed, collective cell migration, is of Drosophila ovarian border cells. That cell cluster is surrounded at all times by other cells (nurse cells, in that case), and for the collective to traverse through the tissue, the process requires constant remodeling of associations amongst the migrating cells in the collective (the border cells), as well as between cells in the collective and those outside of it (the nurse cells). In fact, the nurse cells are considered the substrate upon which border cells migrate. Note also that in collective border cell migration cells within the collective can switch neighbors, suggesting dynamic changes to cell associations and adhesions. 

      In our analysis, the PSC cells exhibit qualities reminiscent of the border cells, and thus we infer that the PSC constitutes a migratory cell collective.  We also show in Figure 1H that PSC cells exhibit cellular extensions, and thus have a very active, intrinsic actin-based cytoskeleton. In fact, in Figure 1I, we point out that PSC cells shift position within the collective, which is not only a direct feature of migration, but also occurs within the border cell collective as that collective migrates. Additionally, the fact that the lateral-most PSC cells shift position in the collective while remaining a part of the collective–and they do this while executing net directional movement–makes a strong argument that the PSC is migratory, as no cell types other than PSCs are contacting the surfaces of those shifting PSC cells. Lastly, the Reviewer’s supposition that, rather than migration, dorsal mesoderm structures form via “differential adhesion, on top of a more general adhesion of cells to each other” is, actually, precisely an inherent aspect of collective cell migration as summarized above for the ovarian border collective.

      In our resubmission we will adjust text citing the existing literature to better put into context the reasoning for why PSC formation based on our data is an example of collective cell migration.

      (3) That brings up the mechanistic centerpiece of this story, the Slit/Robo system. First: I suggest adding more detailed data from the study by Morin-Poulard et al 2016, in the Introduction, since these authors had already implicated Slit-Robo in PSC function and offered a concrete molecular mechanism: "vascular cells produce Slit that activates Robo receptors in the PSC. Robo activation controls proliferation and clustering of PSC cells by regulating Myc, and small GTPase and DE-cadherin activity, respectively". As stated in the Discussion: the mechanism of Slit/Robo action on the PSC in the embryo is likely different, since DE-cadherin is not expressed in the embryonic PSC; however, it maybe not be THAT different: it could also act on adhesion between PSC cells themselves and their neighbors. What are other adhesion proteins that appear in the late lateral mesodermal structures?

      Could DN-cadherin or Fasciclins be involved?

      We agree with the Reviewer that Slit-Robo signaling likely acts in part on the PSC by affecting PSC cell adhesion to each other and/or to CBs (lines 428-435). As stated in the Discussion, we do not observe Fasciclin III expression in the PSC until late stages when the PSC has already been positioned, suggesting that Fasciclin III is not an active player in PSC formation. Assessing whether the PSC expresses any other of the suite of potential cell adhesion molecules such as DN-Cadherin or other Fasciclins, and then study their potential involvement in the Slit-Robo pathway in PSC cells, would be part of a follow-up study.  

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewing Editor Comments:

      The authors are encouraged to address several key issues and provide more explicit clarification when interpreting the behavior of the PSC cells as "migration." It is recommended that the authors engage with all reviewers' comments and refine the text based on the feedback they find valuable.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Major concerns:

      (1) Is it possible to assay robo1 and/or robo1 RNAi in a tissue-specific manner to further explore an intrinsic role in the PSC? Might the VM indirectly affect PSCs in a CB-independent manner? How does this affect the interpretation of results in Figure 4.

      See also our response to Reviewer #1, Public review weaknesses #2.

      Though we agree with the Reviewer that this is the better experiment to test for an intrinsic role for Robo in the PSC, this experiment is not possible at this time. As we noted in the manuscript, we do not yet have an embryonic PSC-specific GAL4, though we have been putting efforts towards identifying/developing such a tool. The Antp-GAL4 driver we used in this study will drive not only in both PSCs and CBs, but also in Vm, epidermis, and amnioserosa, as well as other tissues. The other available embryonic PSC drivers are not specific to the PSC and will drive expression in CBs and Vm, at minimum. This, combined with the reality that RNAi can be ineffective in embryonic tissues, resulted in our use of whole organism mutants to best address this question. 

      We acknowledge that it is possible the Vm indirectly effects the PSC in a CB-independent manner in the double Robo mutant, and we added a statement to the Discussion reiterating this point. However, because the PSC expresses Robo1 and Robo2, we maintain that the simplest interpretation of the results in Figure 4 is that PSC cells require intrinsic Robo signaling. And, as we state in the manuscript, it is possible that Slit signals directly from Vm to Robo on the PSC.

      (2) As this is the first study to be presenting PSC formation as involving collective cell migration, can the authors provide experimental evidence and rationale for this categorization?

      We have added our rationale to the Results section in the revision.

      See also our response to Reviewer #3, Public review weakness #2.

      (3) The Slit staining presented in Fig 3 W', Z' should be quantified. Furthermore, what is the VM phenotype when Robo1 is overexpressed? Is there a VM-specific phenotype and could this indirect effect cause the PSC to misform/mismigrate?

      We didn’t quantify Slit levels in the Vm-specific Robo overexpression condition because there was a visually striking difference compared to controls (increased intensity and specific localization to Vm membranes), and the manipulation resulted in a PSC phenotype. Thus, the evidence we show appears sufficient to strongly suggest that our genetic manipulation resulted in successful trapping of Slit on the Vm.

      As to a Vm phenotype when Robo1 is overexpressed Vm-specifically: we know Vm is present, but we haven’t performed an in-depth phenotypic analysis. In the manuscript we show that this manipulation at least affects organization of PSC-adjacent CBs, which we go on to show is correlated with mis-positioned PSCs. Thus, the PSC phenotype in this condition is not solely due to a Vm-specific phenotype.

      Minor concerns/suggestions:

      (1) I might have missed it but where are the Movies referenced in the text? Are legends provided for the videos? It is important that this is included in the final version (or more clearly presented if I missed it).

      We thank you the Reviewer for pointing this out; we now direct the reader to the movies at appropriate places within the text.

      (2) In Figure 5, it might be helpful to add a third column to A in which the PSCs are pseudo-colored and thus highlighted because it is difficult to discern the white (not pink) PSCs...

      We appreciate the suggestion and now include these panels as Figure 5A’’ in the revision.

      (3) If I am following correctly, the lost PSC cells in Figure 5 don't move. Doesn't this suggest that what is critical is that the PSCs attach to the VM and/or CBs, and not necessarily that they are an actively migrating cell type? They "move" but might be passively carried.

      See also the response to Reviewer #3, Public reviews weaknesses #2.

      The Reviewer is correct that the PSC cells in Fig. 5 don’t move very much, but we interpret this differently from the Reviewer. After detachment of the cells in question they undergo dramatic shape changes, indicating active cytoskeletal remodeling, so the molecular machinery needed for migration appears to remain intact. Thus, we suggest that this observation actually emphasizes our finding that collectivity is needed for the migration. Given the consistency of PSC coalescence/collectivity and the intricate regulation that controls it, we believe it to be an integral part of PSC identity. When PSC cells become detached, they likely lose an aspect of their identity. In various manipulations we’ve noted instances of severely dispersed PSC cells expressing very low levels of identity markers Antp or Odd. Cells in such cases are likely compromised for their function, and this can include, for example, whether they can properly sense cues for migration.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Minor points:

      (1) The expression pattern of Antp-Gal4 > myrGFP in the whole embryo should be shown to better demonstrate the overlap with Odd. How does it compare with Antp-Gal4 > CD8::GFP?

      We do not understand the question posed. We are not suggesting that Antp and Odd overlap in all cells, nor even many cells. It has been demonstrated by the field that co-expression among mesodermal cells, in the position where LG cells are specified, is a marker for the PSC. We have not thoroughly investigated all reporter lines for the GAL4 drivers used by the field.

      (2) Does Tincdelta4-Gal4 not at all express in the PSC? This should be verified.

      This question appears to refer to depletion of Slit by RNAi or cell killing driven by tinCΔ4-GAL4. TinCΔ4-GAL4 is expressed in CBs and in precisely 1 embryonic PSC cell. First, Slit isn’t expressed by any PSC cells to our eye, so any PSC mis-positioning observed upon tinCΔ4>Sli RNAi implicates CB involvement in PSC positioning. In designing tests for CB involvement, we were unable to identify any mutant known to lack CBs (or have fewer CBs) that didn’t also affect specification of the LG/PSC. The cell killing approach seemed best.  It is possible that, in this scenario, perhaps ablation of a single, key PSC cell could affect final positioning of the other PSCs, but we think that less likely than a role for CBs. We also retain our original conclusion due to the fact that we often find mis-positioned PSC cells adjacent to mis-positioned CBs, including in the panel representing the CB ablation experiment, Figure 2S.  

      (3) Line 212: The data provide evidence that Vm is necessary, but clearly not sufficient, as CBs are also necessary.

      We see how this wording was misleading and have adjusted the text accordingly.

      (4) The CBs are not visible in Figure 3B.

      We are unsure what the Reviewer is referring to, as we are certain that the signal between the blue outlines is indeed Slit expression in CBs.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      One minor mistake (I believe): in line 229 it should say "3C and 3D"

      We have corrected this error.

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Huber proposes a theory where the role of the medial temporal lobe (MTL) is memory, where properties of spatial cells in the MTL can be explained through memory function rather than spatial processing or navigation. Instantiating the theory through a computational model, the author shows that many empirical phenomena of spatial cells can be captured, and may be better accounted through a memory theory. It is an impressive computational account of MTL cells with a lot of theoretical reasoning and aims to tightly relate to various spatial cell data.

      In general, the paper is well written, and has been greatly improved after revision for clarity and situating the model in the context of the literature. Below are a few responses to the author's rebuttal.

      (2 & 3) In response to my previous review point 2 and 3, the author has now added "According to this model, hexagonally arranged grid cells should be the exception rather than the rule when considering more naturalistic environments." It is good to know that it captures data that show non-grid like responses in more complex and realistic environments. However, the model still focuses on explaining the spatial firing aspect of grid cells even though they are not supposed to be spatial. I noted in my previous review, "If it's not encoding a spatial attribute, it doesn't have to have a spatial field. For example, it could fire in the whole arena". The author notes inhibitory drive and habituation. Habituation happens, but then spatial cell responses are supposed (or assumed) to be still strong after many visits to that environment. More generally, I am more convinced that grid-like and spatial coding are a special case - both in navigation and memory. In a way I believe the author agrees, though the work here focuses on capturing spatial properties (which is understandable given the literature). In conclusion, though there may be theoretical disagreements, I find the points the author raises fair.

      (4) The difference between mEC and lEC or PRC for encoding non-spatial vs spatial attributes is still not clear to me - though not crucial for the point of this paper.

      (5) Thank you for providing a video - this makes it extremely clear how learning occurs.

    2. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review): 

      (1) Although the theory is based on memory, it also is based on spatially-selective cells.

      Not all cells in the hippocampus fulfill the criteria of place/HD/border/grid cells, and place a role in memory. E.g., Tonegawa, Buszaki labs' work does not focus on only those cells, and there are certainly a lot of non-pure spatial cells in monkeys (Martinez-Trujillo) and humans (iEEG). Does the author mainly focus on saying that "spatial cells" are memory, but do not account for non-spatial memory cells? This seems to be an incomplete account of memory - which is fine, but the way the model is set up suggests that *all* memory is, place (what/where), and non-spatial attributes ("grid") - but cells that don't fulfil these criteria in MTL (Diehl et al., 2017, Neuron; non-grid cells; Schaeffer et al., 2022, ICML; Luo et al., 2024, bioRxiv) certainly contribute to memory, and even navigation. This is also related to the question of whether these cell definitions matter at all (Luo et al., 2024). The authors note "However, this memory conjunction view of the MTL must be reconciled with the rodent electrophysiology finding that most cells in MTL appear to have receptive fields related to some aspect of spatial navigation (Boccara et al., 2010; Grieves & Jeffery, 2017). The paucity of non-spatial cells in MTL could be explained if grid cells have been mischaracterized as spatial." Is the author mainly talking about rodent work?

      There is a new section in the introduction that deals with these issues, titled ‘Why Model the Rodent Navigation Literature with a Memory Model?’ That section reads:

      “Spatial navigation is inherently a memory problem – learning the spatial arrangement of a new enclosure requires memory for the conjunction of what and where. This has long been realized and in the introduction to ‘Hippocampus as a Cognitive Map’, O’Keefe and Nadel (1978) wrote “We shall argue that the hippocampus is the core of a neural memory system providing an objective spatial framework within which the items and events of an organism's experience are located and interrelated” (emphasis added). Furthermore, in the last chapter of their book, they extended cognitive map theory to human memory for non-spatial characteristics. However, in the decades since the development of cognitive map theory, the rodent spatial navigation and human memory literatures have progressed somewhat independently.

      The ideas proposed in this model are an attempt to reunify these literatures by returning to the original claim that spatial navigation is inherently a memory problem. The goal of the current study is to explain the rodent spatial navigation literature using a memory model that has the potential to also explain the human memory literature. In contrast, most grid cell models (Bellmund et al., 2016; Bush et al., 2015; Castro & Aguiar, 2014; Hasselmo, 2009; Mhatre et al., 2012; Solstad et al., 2006; Sorscher et al., 2023; Stepanyuk, 2015; Widloski & Fiete, 2014) are domain specific models of spatial navigation and as such, they do not lend themselves to explanations of human memory. Thus, the reason to prefer this model is parsimony. Rather than needing to develop a theory of memory that is separate from a theory of spatial navigation, it might be possible to address both literatures with a unified account.

      This study does not attempt to falsify other theories of grid cells. Instead, this model reaches a radically different interpretation regarding the function of grid cells; an interpretation that emerges from viewing spatial navigation as a memory problem. All other grid cell models assume that an entorhinal grid cell displaying a spatially arranged grid of firing fields serves the function of spatial coding (i.e., spatial grid cells exist to support a spatial metric). In contrast, the proposed memory model of grid cells assumes that the hexagonal tiling reflects the need to keep memories separate from each other to minimize confusion and confabulation – the grid pattern is the byproduct of pattern separation between memories rather than the basis of a spatial code. 

      It is now understood that grid-like firing fields can occur for non-spatial twodimensional spaces. For instance, human entorhinal cortex exhibits grid-like responses to video morph trajectories in a two-dimensional bird neck-length versus bird leg-length space (Constantinescu et al., 2016). As a general theory of learning and memory, the proposed memory model of grid cells is easily extended to explain these results (e.g., relabeling the border cell inputs in the model as neck-length and leg-length inputs). However, there are other grid cell models that can explain both spatial grid cells as well as non-spatial grid-like responses (Mok & Love, 2019; Rodríguez-Domínguez & Caplan, 2019; Stachenfeld et al., 2017; Wei et al., 2015). Similar to this memory model of grid cells, these models are also positioned to explain both the rodent spatial navigation and human memory literatures. Nevertheless, there is a key difference between this model and other grid cell models that generalize to non-spatial representations. Specifically, these other models assume that grid cells exhibiting spatial receptive fields serve the function of identifying positions in the environment (i.e., their function is spatial). As such, these models do not explain why most of the input to rodent hippocampus appears to be spatial (Boccara et al., 2010; Diehl et al., 2017; Grieves & Jeffery, 2017). This memory model of grid cells provides an answer to the apparent paucity of nonspatial cell types in rodent MTL by proposing that grid cells with spatial receptive fields have been misclassified as spatial (they are what cells rather than where cells) and that place cells are fundamentally memory cells that conjoin what and where.”

      (2) Related to the last point, how about non-grid multi-field mEC cells? In theory, these also should be the same; but the author only presents perfect-look grid cells. In empirical work, clearly, this is not the case, and many mEC cells are multi-field non-grid cells (Diehl et al., 2017). Does the model find these cells? Do they play a different role? As noted by the author "Because the non-spatial attributes are constant throughout the two-dimensional surface, this results in an array of discrete memory locations that are approximately hexagonal (as explained in the Model Methods, an "online" memory consolidation process employing pattern separation rapidly turns an approximately hexagonal array into one that is precisely hexagonal). " If they are indeed all precisely hexagonal, does that mean the model doesn't have non-grid spatial cells? 

      Grid cells with irregular firing fields are now considered in the discussion with the following paragraphs

      “According to this model, hexagonally arranged grid cells should be the exception rather than the rule when considering more naturalistic environments. In a more ecologically valid situation, such as with landmarks, varied sounds, food sources, threats, and interactions with conspecifics, there may still be remembered locations were events occurred or remembered properties can be found, but because the non-spatial properties are non-uniform in the environment, the arrangement of memory feedback will be irregular, reflecting the varied nature of the environment. This may explain the finding that even in a situation where there are regular hexagonal grid cells, there are often irregular non-grid cells that have a reliable multi-location firing field, but the arrangement of the firing fields is irregular (Diehl et al., 2017). For instance, even when navigating in an enclosure that has uniform properties as dictated by experimental procedures, they may be other properties that were not well-controlled (e.g., a view of exterior lighting in some locations but not others), and these uncontrolled properties may produce an irregular grid (i.e., because the uncontrolled properties are reliably associated with some locations but not others, hippocampal memory feedback triggers retrieval of those properties in the associations locations).

      In this memory model, there are other situations in which an irregular but reliable multilocation grid may occur, even when everything is well controlled. In the reported simulations, when the hippocampal place cells were based on variation in X/Y (as defined by Border cells), nothing else changed as a function of location, and the model rapidly produced a precise hexagonal arrangement of hippocampal place cell memories. When head direction was included (i.e., real-world variation in X, Y, and head direction), the model still produced a hexagonal arrangement as per face-centered cubic packing of memories, but this precise arrangement was slower to emerge, with place cells continuing to shift their positions until the borders of the enclosure were sufficiently well learned from multiple viewpoints. If there is real-world variation in four or more dimensions, as is likely the case in a more ecologically valid situation, it will be even harder for place cell memories to settle on a precise regular lattice. Furthermore, in the case of four dimensions, mathematicians studying the “sphere packing problem” recently concluded that densest packing is irregular (Campos et al., 2023). This may explain why the multifield grid cells for freely flying bats have a systematic minimum distance between firing fields, but their arrangement is globally irregular (Ginosar et al., 2021). Assuming that the memories encoded by a bat include not just the three real-world dimensions of variation, but also head direction, the grid will likely be irregular even under optimal conditions of laboratory control.”

      (3) Theoretical reasons for why the model is put together this way, and why grid cells must be coding a non-spatial attribute: Is this account more data-driven (fits the data so formulated this way), or is it theoretical - there is a reason why place, border, grid cells are formulated to be like this. For example, is it an efficient way to code these variables? It can be both, like how the BVC model makes theoretical sense that you can use boundaries to determine a specific location (and so place cell), but also works (creates realistic place cells). 

      The motivation for this model is now articulated in the new section, quoted above, titled ‘Why Model the Rodent Navigation Literature with a Memory Model?’ Regarding the assumption that border cells provide a spatial metric, this assumption is made for the same reasons as in the BVC model. Regarding this, the text said: “These assumptions regarding border cells are based on the boundary vector cell (BVC) model of Barry et al. (2006). As in the BVC model, combinations of border cells encode where each memory occurred in the realworld X/Y plane.”. A new sentence is added to model methods, stating: “This assumption is made because border cells provide an efficient representation of Euclidean space (e.g., if the animal knows how far it is from different walls of the enclosure, this already available information can be used to calculate location).”

      But in this case, the purpose of grid cell coding a non-spatial attribute, and having some kind of system where it doesn't fire at all locations seems a little arbitrary. If it's not encoding a spatial attribute, it doesn't have to have a spatial field. For example, it could fire in the whole arena - which some cells do (and don't pass the criteria of spatial cells as they are not spatially "selective" to another location, related to above).  

      Some cells have a constant high firing rate, but they are the exception rather than the rule. More typically, cells habituate in the presence of ongoing excitatory drive and by doing so become sensitive to fluctuations in excitatory drive. Habituation is advantageous both in terms of metabolic cost and in terms of function (i.e., sensitivity to change). This is now explained in the following paragraph:

      “In theory, a cell representing a non-spatial attribute found at all locations of an enclosure (aka, a grid cell in the context of this model), could fire constantly within the enclosure. However, in practice, cells habituate and rapidly reduce their firing rate by an order of magnitude when their preferred stimulus is presented without cessation (Abbott et al., 1997; Tsodyks & Markram, 1997). After habituation, the firing rate of the cell fluctuates with minor variation in the strength of the excitatory drive. In other words, habituation allows the cell to become sensitive to changes in the excitatory drive (Huber & O’Reilly, 2003). Thus, if there is stronger top-down memory feedback in some locations as compared to others, the cell will fire at a higher rate in those remembered locations rather than in all locations even though the attribute is found at all locations. In brief when faced with constant excitatory drive, the cell accommodates, and becomes sensitive to change in the magnitude of the excitatory drive. In the model simulation, this dynamic adaptation is captured by supposing that cells fire 5% of the time on-average across the simulation, regardless of their excitatory inputs.”

      (4) Why are grid cells given such a large role for encoding non-spatial attributes? If anything, shouldn't it be lateral EC or perirhinal cortex? Of course, they both could, but there is less reason to think this, at least for rodent mEC.  

      This is a good point and the following paragraph has been added to the introduction to explain that lateral EC is likely part of the explanation. But even when including lateral EC, it still appears that most of the input to hippocampus is spatial.

      “One possible answer to the apparent lack of non-spatial cells in MTL is to highlight the role of the lateral entorhinal cortex (LEC) as the source of non-spatial what information for memory encoding (Deshmukh & Knierim, 2011). LEC can be contrasted with mEC, which appears to only provide where information (Boccara et al., 2010a; Diehl et al., 2017). Although it is generally true that LEC is involved in non-spatial processing, there is evidence that LEC provides some forms of spatial information (Knierim et al., 2014). The kind of non-spatial information provided by LEC appears to be in relation to objects (Connor & Knierim, 2017; Wilson et al., 2013). However, in a typical rodent spatial navigation study there are no objects within the enclosure. Thus, although the distinction between mEC and LEC is likely part of the explanation, it is still the case that rodent entorhinal input to hippocampus appears to heavily favor spatial information.”

      (5) Clarification: why do place cells and grid cells differ in terms of stability in the model? Place cells are not stable initially but grid cells come out immediately. They seem directly connected so a bit unclear why; especially if place cell feedback leads to grid cell fields. There is an explanation in the text - based on grid cells coding the on-average memories, but these should be based on place cell inputs as well. So how is it that place fields are unstable then grid fields do not move at all? I wonder if a set of images or videos (gifs) showing the differences in spatial learning would be nice and clarify this point.  

      In this revision, I provide a new video focused on learning of place cell memories that include head direction. This second video is in relation to the results reported in Figure 9. The short answer is that the grid fields for the non-spatial cell are based on the average across several view-dependent memories (i.e., across several place cells that have head direction sensitivity) and the average is reliable even if the place cells are unstable. The text of this explanation now reads:

      “Why was the grid immediately apparent for the non-spatial attribute cell whereas the grid took considerable prior experience for the head direction cells? The answer relates to memory consolidation and the shifting nature of the hippocampal place cells. Head direction cells only produced a reliable grid once the hippocampal place cells (aka, memory cells) assumed stable locations. During the first few sessions, the hippocampal place cells were shifting their positions owing to pattern separation and consolidation. But once the place cells stabilized, they provided reliable top-down memory feedback to the head direction cells in some places but not others, thus producing a reliable grid arrangement to the firing maps of the head direction cells. In other words, for the head direction cells, the grid only appeared once the place cells stabilized. This slow stabilization of place fields is a known property (Bostock et al., 1991; Frank et al., 2004).

      In the simulation, the place cells did not stabilize until a sufficient number of place cells were created (Figure 9C). Specifically, these additional memories were located immediately outside the enclosure, around all borders (Figure 9D). These “outside the box” memories served to constrain the interior place cells, locking them in position despite ongoing consolidation. This dynamic can be seen in a movie showing a representative simulation. The movie shows the positions of the head direction sensitive place cells during initial learning, and then during additional sessions of prior experience as the movie speeds up (see link in Figure 9 capture).

      Why did the non-spatial grid cell (k) produce a grid immediately, before the place cells stabilized? As discussed in relation to Figure 8, the non-spatial grid cell is the projection through the 3D volume of real-world coordinates that includes X, Y, and head direction. Each grid field of a non-spatial grid cell reflects feedback from several place cells that each have a different head direction sensitivity (see for instance the allocentric pairs of memories illustrated in Figure 8C and 8D). Thus, each grid field is the average across several memories that entail different viewpoints and this averaging across memories provides stability even if the individual memories are not yet stable. This average of unstable memories produces a blurry sort of grid pattern without any prior experience.

      A final piece of the puzzle relies on the same mechanism that caused the grid pattern to align with the borders as reported in the results of Figures 6 and 7. Specifically, there are some “sticky” locations with ongoing consolidation because the connection weights are bounded. Because weights cannot go below their minimum or above their maximum, it is slightly more difficult for consolidation to push or pull connection weights over the peak value or under the minimum value of the tuning curve. Thus, the place cells tend to linger in locations that correspond to the peak or trough of a border cell. There are multiple peak and trough locations but for the parameter values in this simulation, the grid pattern seen in Figure 9C shows the set of peak/trough locations that satisfy the desired spacing between memories. Thus, the average across memories shows a reliable grid field at these locations even though the memories are unstable.”

      (6) Other predictions. Clearly, the model makes many interesting (and quite specific!) predictions. But does it make some known simple predictions? 

      • More place cells at rewarded (or more visited) locations. Some empirical researchers seem to think this is not as obvious as it seems (e.g., Duvellle et al., 2019; JoN; Nyberg et al., 2021, Neuron Review).  

      • Grid cell field moves toward reward (Butler et al., 2019; Boccera et al., 2019).  

      • Grid cells deform in trapezoid (Krupic et al., 2015) and change in environments like mazes (Derikman et al., 2014).  

      Thank you for these suggestions and I have added the following paragraph to the discussion:

      “In terms of the animal’s internal state, all locations in the enclosure may be viewed as equally aversive and unrewarding, which is a memorable characteristic of the enclosure. Reward, or lack thereof, is arguably one of the most important nonspatial characteristics and application of this model to reward might explain the existence of goal-related activity in place cells (Hok et al., 2007; although see Duvelle et al., 2019), reflecting the need to remember rewarding locations for goal directed behavior. Furthermore, if place cell memories for a rewarding location activate entorhinal grid cells, this may explain the finding that grid cells remap in an enclosure with a rewarded location such that firing fields are attracted to that location (Boccara et al., 2019; Butler et al., 2019). Studies that introduce reward into the enclosure are an important first step in terms of examining what happens to grid cells when the animal is placed in a more varied environment.”

      Regarding the changes in shape of the environment, this was discussed in the section of the paper that reads “As seen in Figure 12, because all but one of the place cells was exterior when the simulated animal was constrained to a narrow passage, the hippocampal place cell memories were no longer arranged in a hexagonal grid. This disruption of the grid array for narrow passages might explain the finding that the grid pattern (of grid cells) is disrupted in the thin corner of a trapezoid (Krupic et al., 2015) and disrupted when a previously open enclosure is converted to a hairpin maze by insertion of additional walls within the enclosure (Derdikman et al., 2009).” This particular section of the paper now appears in the Appendix and Figure 12 is now Appendix Figure 2.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review): 

      The manuscript describes a new framework for thinking about the place and grid cell system in the hippocampus and entorhinal cortex in which these cells are fundamentally involved in supporting non-spatial information coding. If this framework were shown to be correct, it could have high impact because it would suggest a completely new way of thinking about the mammalian memory system in which this system is non-spatial. Although this idea is intriguing and thought-provoking, a very significant caveat is that the paper does not provide evidence that specifically supports its framework and rules out the alternate interpretations. Thus, although the work provides interesting new ideas, it leaves the reader with more questions than answers because it does not rule out any earlier ideas. 

      Basically, the strongest claim in the paper, that grid cells are inherently non-spatial, cannot be specifically evaluated versus existing frameworks on the basis of the evidence that is shown here. If, for example, the author had provided behavioral experiments showing that human memory encoding/retrieval performance shifts in relation to the predictions of the model following changes in the environment, it would have been potentially exciting because it could potentially support the author's reconceptualization of this system. But in its current form, the paper merely shows that a new type of model is capable of explaining the existing findings. There is not adequate data or results to show that the new model is a significantly better fit to the data compared to earlier models, which limits the impact of the work. In fact, there are some key data points in which the earlier models seem to better fit the data.  

      Overall, I would be more convinced that the findings from the paper are impactful if the author showed specific animal memory behavioral results that were only supported by their memory model but not by a purely spatial model. Perhaps the author could run new experiments to show that there are specific patterns of human or animal behavior that are only explained by their memory model and not by earlier models. But in its current form, I cannot rule out the existing frameworks and I believe some of the claims in this regard are overstated. 

      As previously detailed in Box 1 and as explained in the text in several places, the model provides an explanation of several findings that remain unexplained by other theories (see “Results Uniquely Explained by the Memory Model”). But more generally this is a good point, and the initial draft failed to fully articulate why a researcher might choose this model to guide future empirical investigations. A new section in the introduction that deals with these issues, titled ‘Why Model the Rodent Navigation Literature with a Memory Model?’ That section reads:

      “Spatial navigation is inherently a memory problem – learning the spatial arrangement of a new enclosure requires memory for the conjunction of what and where. This has long been realized and in the introduction to ‘Hippocampus as a Cognitive Map’, O’Keefe and Nadel (1978) wrote “We shall argue that the hippocampus is the core of a neural memory system providing an objective spatial framework within which the items and events of an organism's experience are located and interrelated” (emphasis added). Furthermore, in the last chapter of their book, they extended cognitive map theory to human memory for non-spatial characteristics. However, in the decades since the development of cognitive map theory, the rodent spatial navigation and human memory literatures have progressed somewhat independently.

      The ideas proposed in this model are an attempt to reunify these literatures by returning to the original claim that spatial navigation is inherently a memory problem. The goal of the current study is to explain the rodent spatial navigation literature using a memory model that has the potential to also explain the human memory literature. In contrast, most grid cell models (Bellmund et al., 2016; Bush et al., 2015; Castro & Aguiar, 2014; Hasselmo, 2009; Mhatre et al., 2012; Solstad et al., 2006; Sorscher et al., 2023; Stepanyuk, 2015; Widloski & Fiete, 2014) are domain specific models of spatial navigation and as such, they do not lend themselves to explanations of human memory. Thus, the reason to prefer this model is parsimony. Rather than needing to develop a theory of memory that is separate from a theory of spatial navigation, it might be possible to address both literatures with a unified account.

      This study does not attempt to falsify other theories of grid cells. Instead, this model reaches a radically different interpretation regarding the function of grid cells; an interpretation that emerges from viewing spatial navigation as a memory problem. All other grid cell models assume that an entorhinal grid cell displaying a spatially arranged grid of firing fields serves the function of spatial coding (i.e., spatial grid cells exist to support a spatial metric). In contrast, the proposed memory model of grid cells assumes that the hexagonal tiling reflects the need to keep memories separate from each other to minimize confusion and confabulation – the grid pattern is the byproduct of pattern separation between memories rather than the basis of a spatial code. 

      It is now understood that grid-like firing fields can occur for non-spatial twodimensional spaces. For instance, human entorhinal cortex exhibits grid-like responses to video morph trajectories in a two-dimensional bird neck-length versus bird leg-length space (Constantinescu et al., 2016). As a general theory of learning and memory, the proposed memory model of grid cells is easily extended to explain these results (e.g., relabeling the border cell inputs in the model as neck-length and leg-length inputs). However, there are other grid cell models that can explain both spatial grid cells as well as non-spatial grid-like responses (Mok & Love, 2019; Rodríguez-Domínguez & Caplan, 2019; Stachenfeld et al., 2017; Wei et al., 2015). Similar to this memory model of grid cells, these models are also positioned to explain both the rodent spatial navigation and human memory literatures. Nevertheless, there is a key difference between this model and other grid cell models that generalize to non-spatial representations. Specifically, these other models assume that grid cells exhibiting spatial receptive fields serve the function of identifying positions in the environment (i.e., their function is spatial). As such, these models do not explain why most of the input to rodent hippocampus appears to be spatial (Boccara et al., 2010; Diehl et al., 2017; Grieves & Jeffery, 2017). This memory model of grid cells provides an answer to the apparent paucity of nonspatial cell types in rodent MTL by proposing that grid cells with spatial receptive fields have been misclassified as spatial (they are what cells rather than where cells) and that place cells are fundamentally memory cells that conjoin what and where.”

      - The paper does not fully take into account all the findings regarding grid cells, some of which very clearly show spatial processing in this system. For example, findings on grid-bydirection cells (e.g., Sargolini et al. 2006) would seem to suggest that the entorhinal grid system is very specifically spatial and related to path integration. Why would grid-bydirection cells be present and intertwined with grid cells in the author's memory-related reconceptualization? It seems to me that the existence of grid-by-direction cells is strong evidence that at least part of this network is specifically spatial.

      Head by direction grid cells were a key part of the reported results. These grid cells naturally arise in the model as the animal forms memories (aka, hippocampal place cells) that conjoin location (as defined by border cells), head direction at the time of memory formation, and one or more non-spatial properties found at that location. In this revision, I have attempted to better explain how including head direction in hippocampal memories naturally gives rise to these cell types. The introduction to the head direction module simulations now reads:

      “According to this memory model of spatial navigation, place cells are the conjunction of location, as defined by border cells, and one or more properties that are remembered to exist at that location. Such memories could, for instance, allow an animal to remember the location of a food cache (Payne et al., 2021). The next set of simulations investigates behavior of the model when one of the to-be-remembered properties is head direction at the time when the memory was formed (e.g., the direction of a pathway leading to a food cache). Indicating that head direction is an important part of place cell representations, early work on place cells in mazes found strong sensitivity to head direction, such that the place field is found in one direction of travel but not the other (McNaughton et al., 1983; Muller et al., 1994). Place cells can exhibit a less extreme version of head direction sensitivity in open field recordings (Rubin et al., 2014), but the nature of the sensitivity is more complicated, depending on location of the animal relative to the place field center (Jercog et al., 2019).

      It is possible that some place cell memories do not receive head direction input, as was the case for the simulations reported in Figures 6/7 – in those simulations, place cells were entirely insensitive to head direction, owing to a lack of input from head direction cells. However, removal of head direction input to hippocampus affects place cell responses (Calton et al., 2003) and grid cell responses (Winter et al., 2015), suggesting that head direction is a key component of the circuit. Furthermore, if place cells represent episodic memories, it seems natural that they should include head direction (i.e., viewpoint at the time of memory formation).

      In the simulations reported next, head direction is simply another property that is conjoined in a hippocampal place cell memory. In this case, a head direction cell should become a head direction conjunctive grid cell (i.e., a grid cell, but only when the animal is heading in a particular direction), owing to memory feedback from the hexagonal array of hippocampal place cell memories. When including head direction, the real-world dimensions of variation are across three dimensions (X, Y, and head direction) rather than two, and consolidation will cause the place cells to arrange in a three-dimensional volume. The simulation reported below demonstrates that this situation provides a “grid module”.”

      - I am also concerned that the paper does not do enough to address findings regarding how the elliptical shape of grid fields shifts when boundaries of an environment compress in one direction or change shape/angles (Lever et al., & Krupic et al). Those studies show compression in grid fields based on boundary position, and I don't see how the authors' model would explain these findings.  

      This finding was covered in the original submission: “For instance, perhaps one egocentric/allocentric pair of mEC grid modules is based on head direction (viewpoint) in remembered positions relative to the enclosure borders whereas a different egocentric/allocentric pair is based on head direction in remembered positions relative to landmarks exterior to the enclosure. This might explain why a deformation of the enclosure (moving in one of the walls to form a rectangle rather than a square) caused some of the grid modules but not others to undergo a deformation of the grid pattern in response to the deformation of the enclosure wall (see also Barry et al., 2007). More specifically, if there is one set of non-orthogonal dimensions for enclosure borders and the movement of one wall is too modest as to cause avoid global remapping, this would deform the grid modules based the enclosure border cells. At the same time, if other grid modules are based on exterior properties (e.g., perhaps border cells in relation to the experimental room rather than the enclosure), then those grid modules would be unperturbed by moving the enclosure wall.”

      I apologize for being unclear in describing how the model might explain this result. The paragraph has been rewritten and now reads:

      “Consider the possibility that one mEC grid modules is based on head direction (viewpoint) in remembered positions relative to the enclosure borders (e.g., learning the properties of the enclosure, such as the metal surface) while a different grid module is based on head direction in remembered positions relative to landmarks exterior to the enclosure (e.g., learning the properties of the experimental room, such as the sound of electronics that the animal is subject to at all locations). This might explain why a deformation of the enclosure (moving one of the walls to form a rectangle rather than a square) caused some of the grid modules but not others to undergo a deformation of the grid pattern in response to the deformation of the enclosure wall (see also Barry et al., 2007). More specifically, suppose that the movement of one wall is modest and after moving the wall, the animal views the enclosure as being the same enclosure, albeit slightly modified (e.g., when a home is partially renovated, it is still considered the same home). In this case, the set of non-orthogonal dimensions associated with enclosure borders would still be associated with the now-changed borders and any memories in reference to this border-determined space would adjust their positions accordingly in real-world coordinates (i.e., the place cells would subtly shift their positions owing to this deformation of the borders, producing a corresponding deformation of the grid). At the same time, there may be other sets of memories that are in relation to dimensions exterior to the enclosure. Because these exterior properties are unchanged, any place cells and grid cells associated with the exterior-oriented memories would be unchanged by moving the enclosure wall.”

      - Are findings regarding speed modulation of grid cells problematic for the paper's memory results? 

      - A further issue is that the paper does not seem to adequately address developmental findings related to the timecourses of the emergence of different cell types. In their simulation, researchers demonstrate the immediate emergence of grid fields in a novel environment, while noting that the stabilization of place cell positions takes time. However, these simulation findings contradict previous empirical developmental studies (Langston et al., 2010). Those studies showed that head direction cells show the earliest development of spatial response, followed by the appearance of place cells at a similar developmental stage. In contrast, grid cells emerge later in this developmental sequence. The gradual improvement in spatial stability in firing patterns likely plays a crucial role in the developmental trajectory of grid cells. Contrary to the model simulation, grid cells emerge later than place cells and head direction cells, yet they also hold significance in spatial mapping. 

      - The model simulations suggest that certain grid patterns are acquired more gradually than others. For instance, egocentric grid cells require the stabilization of place cell memories amidst ongoing consolidation, while allocentric grid cells tend to reflect average place field positions. However, these findings seemingly conflict with empirical studies, particularly those on the conjunctive representation of distance and direction in the earliest grid cells. Previous studies show no significant differences were found in grid cells and grid cells with directional correlates across these age groups, relative to adults (Wills et al., 2012). This indicates that the combined representation of distance and direction in single mEC cells is present from the earliest ages at which grid cells emerge. 

      These are good points and they have been addressed in a new section of the introduction titled ‘The Scope of the Proposed Model’. That section reads:

      “The reported simulations explain why most mEC cell types in the rodent literature appear to be spatial (Boccara et al., 2010; Diehl et al., 2017; Grieves & Jeffery, 2017). Assuming that rodents can form non-spatial memories, rodent hippocampus must receive non-spatial input from entorhinal cortex. These simulations suggest that characterization of the rodent mEC cortex as primarily spatial might be incorrect if most grid cells (except perhaps head direction conjunctive grid cells) have been mischaracterized as spatial. Other literatures with other species find non-spatial representations in MTL (Gulli et al., 2020; Quiroga et al., 2005; Wixted et al., 2014) and non-spatial hippocampal memory encoding has been found in rodents (Liu et al., 2012; McEchron & Disterhoft, 1999). The proposed memory model is compatible with these results – the ideas contained in this model could be applied to nonspatial memory representations. However, surveys of cell types in rodent entorhinal cortex seem to indicate that most cells are spatial (Boccara et al., 2010; Diehl et al., 2017; Grieves & Jeffery, 2017). How can the rodent hippocampus encode nonspatial memories if most of its input is spatial? The goal of the reported simulations is to explain the apparent paucity of non-spatial cells in rodent entorhinal cortex by proposing that grid cells have been misclassified as spatial (see also Luo et al., 2024).

      Given the simplicity of the proposed model, there are important findings that the model cannot address -- it is not that the model makes the wrong predictions but rather that it makes no predictions. The role of running speed (Kraus et al., 2015) is one such variable for which the model makes no predictions. Similarly, because the model is a rate-coded model rather than a model of oscillating spiking neurons, it makes no predictions regarding theta oscillations (Buzsáki & Moser, 2013). The model is an account of learning and memory for an adult animal, and it makes no predictions regarding the developmental (Langston et al., 2010; Muessig et al., 2015; Wills et al., 2012) or evolutionary (Rodrıguez et al., 2002) time course of different cell types. This model contains several purely spatial representations such as border cells, head direction cells, and head direction conjunctive grid cells and it may be that these purely spatial cell types emerged first, followed by the evolution and/or development of non-spatial cell types. However, this does not invalidate the model. Instead, this is a model for an adult animal that has both episodic memory capabilities and spatial navigation capabilities, irrespective of the order in which these capabilities emerged.

      This model has the potential to explain context effects in memory (Godden & Baddeley, 1975; Gulli et al., 2020; Howard et al., 2005). According to this model, different grid cells represent different non-spatial characteristics and place cells represent the combination of these “context” factors and location. In the simulation, just one grid cell is simulated but the same results would emerge when simulating hundreds of different non-spatial inputs provided that all of the simulated non-spatial inputs exist throughout the recording session. However, there is evidence that hippocampus can explicitly represent the passage of time (Eichenbaum, 2014), and time is assuredly an important factor in defining episodic memory (Bright et al., 2020). Thus, although the current model addresses unique combinations of what and where, it is left to future work to incorporate representations of when in the memory model.”

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review): 

      A crucial assumption of the model is that the content of experience must be constant in space. It's difficult to imagine a real-world example that satisfies this assumption. Odors and sounds are used as examples. While they are often more spatially diffuse than an objects on the ground, odors and sounds have sources that are readily detectable. Animals can easily navigate to a food source or to a vocalizing conspecific. This assumption is especially problematic because it predicts that all grid cells should become silent when their preferred non-spatial attribute (e.g. a specific odor) is missing. I'm not aware of any experimental data showing that grid cells become silent. On the contrary, grid cells are known to remain active across all contexts that have been tested, including across sleep/wake states. Unlike place cells, grid cells do not seem to turn off. Since grid cells are active in all contexts, their preferred attribute must also be present in all contexts, and therefore they would not convey any information about the specific content of an experience.  

      These are good points and in this revision I have attempted to explain that there is a great deal of contextual similarity across all recording sessions. One paragraph in the discussion now reads

      “In a typical rodent spatial navigation study, the non-spatial attributes are wellcontrolled, existing at all locations regardless of the enclosure used during testing (hence, a grid cell in one enclosure will be a grid cell in a different enclosure). Because labs adopt standard procedures, the surfaces, odors (e.g., from cleaning), external lighting, time of day, human handler, electronic apparatus, hunger/thirst state, etc. might be the same for all recording sessions. Additionally, the animal is not allowed to interact with other animals during recording and this isolation may be an unusual and highly salient property of all recording sessions. Notably, the animal is always attached to wires during recording. The internal state of the animal (fear, aloneness, the noise of electronics, etc.) is likely similar across all recording situations and attributes of this internal state are likely represented in the hippocampus and entorhinal input to hippocampus. According to this model, hippocampal place cells are “marking” all locations in the enclosure as places where these things tend to happen.”

      The proposed novelty of this theory is that other models all assume that grid cells encode space. This isn't quite true of models based on continuous attractor networks, the discussion of which is notably absent. More specifically, these models focus on the importance of intrinsic dynamics within the entorhinal cortex in generating the grid pattern. While this firing pattern is aligned to space during navigation and therefore can be used as a representation of that space, the neural dynamics are preserved even during sleep. Similarly, it is because the grid pattern does not strictly encode physical space that gridlike signals are also observed in relation to other two-dimensional continuous variables. 

      These models were briefly discussed in the general discussion section and in this revision they are further discussed in the introduction in a new section, titled ‘Why Model the Rodent Navigation Literature with a Memory Model?’ That section reads:

      “Spatial navigation is inherently a memory problem – learning the spatial arrangement of a new enclosure requires memory for the conjunction of what and where. This has long been realized and in the introduction to ‘Hippocampus as a Cognitive Map’, O’Keefe and Nadel (1978) wrote “We shall argue that the hippocampus is the core of a neural memory system providing an objective spatial framework within which the items and events of an organism's experience are located and interrelated” (emphasis added). Furthermore, in the last chapter of their book, they extended cognitive map theory to human memory for non-spatial characteristics. However, in the decades since the development of cognitive map theory, the rodent spatial navigation and human memory literatures have progressed somewhat independently.

      The ideas proposed in this model are an attempt to reunify these literatures by returning to the original claim that spatial navigation is inherently a memory problem. The goal of the current study is to explain the rodent spatial navigation literature using a memory model that has the potential to also explain the human memory literature. In contrast, most grid cell models (Bellmund et al., 2016; Bush et al., 2015; Castro & Aguiar, 2014; Hasselmo, 2009; Mhatre et al., 2012; Solstad et al., 2006; Sorscher et al., 2023; Stepanyuk, 2015; Widloski & Fiete, 2014) are domain specific models of spatial navigation and as such, they do not lend themselves to explanations of human memory. Thus, the reason to prefer this model is parsimony. Rather than needing to develop a theory of memory that is separate from a theory of spatial navigation, it might be possible to address both literatures with a unified account.

      This study does not attempt to falsify other theories of grid cells. Instead, this model reaches a radically different interpretation regarding the function of grid cells; an interpretation that emerges from viewing spatial navigation as a memory problem. All other grid cell models assume that an entorhinal grid cell displaying a spatially arranged grid of firing fields serves the function of spatial coding (i.e., spatial grid cells exist to support a spatial metric). In contrast, the proposed memory model of grid cells assumes that the hexagonal tiling reflects the need to keep memories separate from each other to minimize confusion and confabulation – the grid pattern is the byproduct of pattern separation between memories rather than the basis of a spatial code. 

      It is now understood that grid-like firing fields can occur for non-spatial two dimensional spaces. For instance, human entorhinal cortex exhibits grid-like responses to video morph trajectories in a two-dimensional bird neck-length versus bird leg-length space (Constantinescu et al., 2016). As a general theory of learning and memory, the proposed memory model of grid cells is easily extended to explain these results (e.g., relabeling the border cell inputs in the model as neck-length and leg-length inputs). However, there are other grid cell models that can explain both spatial grid cells as well as non-spatial grid-like responses (Mok & Love, 2019; Rodríguez-Domínguez & Caplan, 2019; Stachenfeld et al., 2017; Wei et al., 2015). Similar to this memory model of grid cells, these models are also positioned to explain both the rodent spatial navigation and human memory literatures. Nevertheless, there is a key difference between this model and other grid cell models that generalize to non-spatial representations. Specifically, these other models assume that grid cells exhibiting spatial receptive fields serve the function of identifying positions in the environment (i.e., their function is spatial). As such, these models do not explain why most of the input to rodent hippocampus appears to be spatial (Boccara et al., 2010; Diehl et al., 2017; Grieves & Jeffery, 2017). This memory model of grid cells provides an answer to the apparent paucity of nonspatial cell types in rodent MTL by proposing that grid cells with spatial receptive fields have been misclassified as spatial (they are what cells rather than where cells) and that place cells are fundamentally memory cells that conjoin what and where.”

      The use of border cells or boundary vector cells as the main (or only) source of spatial information in the hippocampus is not well supported by experimental data. Border cells in the entorhinal cortex are not active in the center of an environment. Boundary-vector cells can fire farther away from the walls but are not found in the entorhinal cortex. They are located in the subiculum, a major output of the hippocampus. While the entorhinalhippocampal circuit is a loop, the route from boundary-vector cells to place cells is much less clear than from grid cells. Moreover, both border cells and boundary-vector cells (which are conflated in this paper) comprise a small population of neurons compared to grid cells.

      AUTHOR RESPONSE: The model can be built without assuming between-border cells (early simulations with the model did not make this assumption). Regarding this issue, the text reads “Unlike the BVC model, the boundary cell representation is sparsely populated using a basis set of three cells for each of the three dimensions (i.e., 9 cells in total), such that for each of the three non-orthogonal orientations, one cell captures one border, another the opposite border, and the third cell captures positions between the opposing borders (Solstad et al., 2008). However, this is not a core assumption, and it is possible to configure the model with border cell configurations that contain two opponent border cells per dimension, without needing to assume that any cells prefer positions between the borders (with the current parameters, the model predicts there will be two border cells for each between-border cell). Similarly, it is possible to configure the model with more than 3 cells for each dimension (i.e., multiple cells representing positions between the borders).” The Solstad paper found a few cells that responded in positions between borders, but perhaps not as many as 1 out of 3 cells, such as this particular model simulation predicts. If the paucity of between-border cells is a crucial data point, the model can be reconfigured with opponent-border cells without any between border cells. The reason that 3 border cells were used rather than 2 opponent border cells was for simplicity. Because 3 head direction cells were used to capture the face-centered cubic packing of memories, the simulation also used 3 border cells per dimensions to allow a common linear sum metric when conjoining dimensions to form memories. If the border dimensions used 2 cells while head direction used 3 cells, a dimensional weighting scheme would be needed to allow this mixing of “apples and oranges” in terms of distances in the 3D space that includes head direction.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors): 

      Specific questions/clarifications:  

      (1) Assumption of population-based vs single unit link to biological cells: At the start, the author assumes that each unit here can be associated with a population: "the simulated activation values can be thought of as proportional to the average firing rate of an ensemble of neurons with similar inputs and outputs (O'Reilly & Munakata, 2000)." But is a 'grid cell' found here a single cell or an average of many cells? Does this mean the model assumes many cells that have different fields that are averaged, which become a grid-like unit in the model? But in biology, these are single cells? Or does it mean a grid response is an average of the place cell inputs? 

      I apologize for being unclear about this. The grid cells in the model are equivalent to real single cells except that the simulation uses a ratecoded cell rather than a spiking cell. The averaging that was mentioned in the paper is across identically behaving spiking cells rather than across cells with different grid field arrangements. To better explain this, I have added the following text:

      “For instance, consider a set of several thousand spiking grid cells that are identical in terms of their firing fields. At any moment, some of these identically-behaving cells will produce an action potential while others do not (i.e., the cells are not perfectly synchronized), but a snapshot of their behavior can be extracted by calculating average firing rate across the ensemble. The simulated cells in the model represent this average firing rate of identically-behaving ensembles of spiking neurons.” 

      This is a mathematical short-cut to avoid simulating many spiking neurons. Because this model was compared to real spike rate maps, this real-valued average firing rate is down-sampled to produce spikes by finding the locations that produced the top 5% of real-valued activation values across the simulation.

      (2) It is not clear to me why they are circular border cells/basis sets.  

      In the initial submission, there was a brief paragraph describing this assumption. In this revision, that paragraph has been expanded and modified for greater clarity. It now reads:

      “Because head direction is necessarily a circular dimension, it was assumed that all dimensions are circular (a circular dimension is approximately linear for nearby locations). This assumption of circular dimensions was made to keep the model relatively simple, making it easier to combine dimensions and allowing application of the same processes for all dimensions. For instance, the model requires a weight normalization process to ensure that the pattern of weights for each dimension corresponds to a possible input value along that dimension. However, the normalization for a linear dimension is necessarily different than for a circular dimension. Because the neural tuning functions were assumed to be sine waves, normalization requires that the sum of squared weights add up to a constant value. For a linear dimension, this sum of squares rule only applies to the subset of cells that are relevant to a particular value along the dimension whereas for a circular dimension, this sum of squares rule is over the entire set of cells that represent the dimension (i.e., weight normalization is easier to implement with circular dimensions). Although all dimensions were assumed to be circular for reasons of mathematical convenience and parsimony, circular dimensions may relate to the finding that human observers have difficultly re-orienting themselves in a room depending on the degree of rotational symmetry of the room (Kelly et al., 2008). In addition, this simplifying assumption allows the model to capture the finding that the population of grid cells lies on a torus (Gardner et al., 2022), although I note that the model was developed before this result was known.”

      (3) Why is it 3 components? I realise that the number doesn't matter too much, but I believe more is better, so is it just for simplicity? 

      In this revision, additional text has been added to explain this assumption: “To keep the model simple, the same number of cells was assumed for all dimensions and all dimensions were assumed to be circular (head direction is necessarily circular and because one dimension needed to be circular, all dimensions were assumed to be circular). Three cells per dimensions was chosen because this provides a sparse population code of each dimension, with few border cells responding between borders, with few border cells responding between borders, while allowing three separate phases of grid cells within a grid cell module (in the model, a grid cell module arises from combination of a third dimension, such as head direction, with the real-world X/Y dimensions defined by border cells).”

      As a reminder, the text explaining the sparse coding of border cells reads: “However, this is not a core assumption, and it is possible to configure the model with border cell configurations that contain two opponent border cells per dimension, without needing to assume that any cells prefer positions between the borders (with the current parameters, the model predicts there will be two border cells for each between-border cell). Similarly, it is possible to configure the model with more than 3 cells for each dimension (i.e., multiple cells representing positions between the borders).”

      The model can work with just two opponent cells or with more than three cells per basis set. In different simulations, I have explored these possibilities. Three was chosen because it is a convenient way to highlight the face-centered cubic packing of memories that tends to occur (FCP produces 3 alternating layers of hexagonally arranged firing fields). Thus, each of the three head direction cells captures a different layer of the FCP arrangement. A more realistic simulation might combine 6 different head direction cells tiling the head direction dimension with opponent border cells (just 2 cells for each border dimensions). Such a combination would produce responses at borders, but no responses between borders and, at the same time, the head direction cells would still reveal the FCP arrangement. However, it is not easy to find the right parameters for such a mix-and-match simulation in which different dimensions have different numbers of tuning functions (e.g., some dimensions having 2 cells while others have 3 or 6 and some dimensions being linear while others are circular). When all of the dimensions are of the same type, the simple sum that arises from multiplying the input by the weight values gives rise to Euclidean distance (see Figure 3B). With a mix-and-match model of different dimension-types, it should be possible to adjust the sum to nevertheless produce a monotonic function with Euclidean distance although I leave this to future work. To keep things simple, I assumed that all dimensions are of the same type (circular, with 3 cells per dimension).  

      (4) Confusion due to the border cells/box was unclear to me. "If the period of the circular border cells was the same as the width of the box, then a memory pushed outside the box on one side would appear on the opposite side of the box, in which case the partial grid field on one side should match up with its remainder on the other side. This would entail complete confusion between opposite sides of the box, and the representation of the box would be a torus (donut-shaped) rather than a flat two-dimensional surface. To reduce confusion ..." Is this confusion of the model? Of the animal?  

      This would be confusion of the animal (e.g., a memory field overlapping with one border would also appear at the opposite border in the corresponding location). At one point in model development, I made the assumption that one side of the box wraps to the other side, and I asked Trygve Solstad to run some analyses of real data to see if cells actually wrap around in this manner. He did not find any evidence of this, and so I decided to include outsidethe-box representational area which, as it turned out, allowed the model to capture other behaviors as detailed in the paper.

      This section of the paper now reads:

      “The cosine tuning curves of the simulated border cells represent distance from the border on both sides of the border (i.e., firing rate increases as the animal approaches the border from either the inside or the outside of the enclosure). Experimental procedures do not allow the animal to experience locations immediately outside the enclosure, but these locations remain an important part of the hypothetic representation, particularly when considering the modification of memories through consolidation (i.e., a memory created inside the enclosure might be moved to a location outside the enclosure). This symmetry about the border cell’s preferred location is needed to maintain an unbiased representation, with a constant sum of squares for the border cell inputs (see methods section). Rather than using linear dimensions, all dimensions were assumed to be circular to keep the model relatively simple. This assumption was made because head direction is necessarily a circular dimension and by having all dimensions be circular, it is easy to combine dimensions in a consistent manner to produce multidimensional hippocampal place cell memories. Thus, the border cells define a torus (or more accurately a three-torus) of possible locations. This provides a hypothetical space of locations that could be represented.

      In light of the assumption to represent border cells with a circular dimension, when a memory is pushed outside the East wall of the enclosure, it would necessarily be moved to the West wall of the enclosure if the period of the circular dimension was equal to the width of the enclosure. If this were true, then the partial grid field on one side of the enclosure would match up with its remainder on the other side. Such a situation would cause the animal to become completely confused regarding opposite sides of the enclosure (a location on the West wall would be indistinguishable from the corresponding location on the East wall). To reduce confusion between opposite sides of the enclosure, the width of the enclosure in which the animal navigated (Figure 5) was assumed to be half as wide as the full period of the border cells. In other words, although the space of possible representations was a three-torus, it was assumed that the real-world twodimensional enclosure encompassed a section of the torus (e.g., a square piece of tape stuck onto the surface of a donut). The torus is better thought of as “playing field” in which different sizes and shapes of enclosure can be represented (i.e., different sizes and shapes of tape placed on the donut). Furthermore, this assumption provides representational space that is outside the box without such locations wrapping around to the opposite side of the box.”

      (5) Figure 3 - This result seems to be related to whether you use Euclidean or city-block distance. If you use Euclidean distances in two dimensions wouldn't this work out fine?  

      Euclidean distance was the metric used in the analysis of the two-dimensional simulation, but this did not work out. To make this clear, I have changed the label on the x-axes to read “Euclidean distance” for both the two- and three-dimensional simulations. The two-dimensional simulation produced city block behavior rather than Euclidean behavior because memory retrieval is the sum of the two dimensions, as is standard in neural networks, rather than the Euclidian distance formula, which would require that memory retrieval be the square root of the sum of squares of the two dimensions. One way to address this problem with the two-dimensional simulation would be to use a specific Euclidean-mimicking activation function rather than a simple sum of dimensions. The very first model I developed used such an activation function as applied to opponent border cells with just two dimensions (so 4 cells in total – left/right and top/down). This produced Euclidean behavior, but the activation function was implausible and did not generalize to simulations that also included head direction. In contrast, with three non-orthogonal dimensions, the simple sum of dimensions is approximately Euclidean.

      (6) Final sentence of the Discussion: "However, unlike the present model, these models still assume that entorhinal grid cells represent space rather than a non-spatial attribute." I am not sure if the authors of the cited papers will agree with this. They consider the spatial cases, but most argue they can treat non-spatial features as well. What the author might mean is that they assume non-spatial features are in some metric space that, in a way, is spatial. However, I am not sure if the author would argue that non-spatial features cannot be encoded metrically (e.g., Euclidean distance based on the similarity of odours). 

      In this section, when referring to “entorhinal grid cells” I was specifically referring to traditional grid cells in a rodent spatial navigation experiment. I did not mean to imply that these other theories cannot explain nonspatial grid fields, such as in the two-dimensional bird space grid cells found with humans. The way in which the proposed memory model and these other models differ is in terms of what they assume regarding the function of grid cells that exhibit spatial grid fields. In this revision, I have changed this text to read:

      “These models can capture some of the grid cell results presented in the current simulations, including extension to non-spatial grid-like responses (e.g., grid field that cover a two-dimensional neck/leg length bird space). Furthermore, these models may be able to explain memory phenomena similar to the model proposed in this study. However, unlike the proposed model, these models assume that the function of entorhinal grid cells that exhibit spatial X/Y grid fields during navigation is to represent space. In contrast, the memory model proposed in this study assume that the function of spatial X/Y grid cells is to represent a non-spatial attribute; the only reason they exhibit a spatial X/Y grid is because memories of that non-spatial attribute are arranged in a hexagonal grid owing to the uncluttered/unvarying nature of the enclosure. Thus, these model do not explain why most of the input to rodent hippocampus appears to be spatial (Boccara et al., 2010b; Diehl et al., 2017; Grieves & Jeffery, 2017) whereas the proposed model can explain this situation as reflecting the miss-classification of grid cells with a spatial arrangement as providing spatial input to hippocampus.”

      (7) It would be interesting to see videos/gifs of the model learning, and an idea of how many steps of trials it takes (is it capturing real-time rodent cell firing whilst foraging, or is it more abstracted, taking more trials). 

      The short answer is “yes”, the model is capturing real-time rodent cell firing while foraging. This is particularly true when simulating place cell memories in the absence of head direction information, as was shown in a video provided in the initial submission in relation to Figure 4. In this revision, I have provided a second video of learning when simulating place cell memories that include head direction. This second video is in relation to the results reported in Figure 9. This shows that even when learning a three-dimensional real-world space (X, Y, and head direction), the model rapidly produces an on-average hexagonal arrangement of place cells memories owing to the slight tendency of the place cell memories to linger in some locations as compared to others during consolidation. More specifically, they are more likely to linger in the locations that are the intersections of the peaks and/or troughs of the border cells and it is this tendency that supports the immediate appearance of grid cells. However, because the place cell memories are still shifting, head direction conjunctive grid cells are slower to emerge (the head direction conjunctive grid cells require stabilization of the place cells). The video then speeds up the learning process to so how place cells eventually stabilize after sufficient learning of the borders of the enclosure from different head/view directions.

      (8) One question is whether all the results have to be presented in the main text. It was difficult to see which key predictions fit the data and do so better than a spatial/navigation account. 

      Thank you for this suggestion. To make the paper more readable and easier for different readers with different interests to choose different aspects of the results to read, the second half of the results have been put in an appendix. More specifically, the second half of the results concerned place cells rather than grid cells. Thus, in this revision, the main text concerns grid cell results and the appendix concerns place cell results.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):  

      The title could usefully be shortened to focus on the main argument that observed firing patterns could be consistent with mapping memories instead of space. It's a stretch to argue that memory is the primary role when no such data is presented (i.e., there is no comparison of competing models). 

      This is a good point (I do not present evidence that conclusively indicates the function of MTL). This original title was chosen to make clear how this account is a radical departure from other accounts of grid cells. The revised title highlights that: 1) a memory model can also explain rodent single cell recording data during navigation; and 2) grid cell may not be non-spatial. The revised title is: “A Memory Model of Rodent Spatial Navigation: Place Cells are Memories Arranged in a Grid and Grid Cells are Non-spatial”

      When arguing that the main role of the hippocampus is memory, I strongly suggest engaging with the work of people like Howard Eichenbaum who spent the better part of their career arguing the same (e.g. DOI:10.1152/jn.00005.2017.)  

      Thank you for pointing out this important oversight. Early in introduction, I now write: “The proposal that hippocampus represents the multimodal conjunctions that define an episode is not new (Marr et al., 1991; Sutherland & Rudy, 1989) and neither is the proposal that hippocampal memory supports spatial/navigation ability (Eichenbaum, 2017). This view of the hippocampus is consistent with “feature in place” results (O’Keefe & Krupic, 2021) in which hippocampal cells respond to the conjunction of a non-spatial attribute affixed to a specific location, rather than responding more generically to any instance of a non-spatial attribute. In other words, the what/where conjunction is unique. Furthermore, the uniqueness of the what/where conjunction may be the fundamental building block of spatial memory and navigation. In reviewing the hippocampal literature, Howard Eichenbaum (2017) concludes that ‘the hippocampal system is not dedicated to spatial cognition and navigation, but organizes experiences in memory, for which spatial mapping and navigation are both a metaphor for and a prominent application of relational memory organization.’”

      With a focus on episodic memory, there should be a mention of the temporal component of memory. While it may rightfully be beyond the scope of this model, it's confusing to omit time completely from the discussion. 

      This issue and several others are now addressed in a new section in the introduction titled ‘The Scope of the Proposed Model’. That section reads:

      “The reported simulations explain why most mEC cell types in the rodent literature appear to be spatial (Boccara et al., 2010; Diehl et al., 2017; Grieves & Jeffery, 2017). Assuming that rodents can form non-spatial memories, rodent hippocampus must receive non-spatial input from entorhinal cortex. These simulations suggest that characterization of the rodent mEC cortex as primarily spatial might be incorrect if most grid cells (except perhaps head direction conjunctive grid cells) have been mischaracterized as spatial. Other literatures with other species find non-spatial representations in MTL (Gulli et al., 2020; Quiroga et al., 2005; Wixted et al., 2014) and non-spatial hippocampal memory encoding has been found in rodents (Liu et al., 2012; McEchron & Disterhoft, 1999). The proposed memory model is compatible with these results – the ideas contained in this model could be applied to nonspatial memory representations. However, surveys of cell types in rodent entorhinal cortex seem to indicate that most cells are spatial (Boccara et al., 2010; Diehl et al., 2017; Grieves & Jeffery, 2017). How can the rodent hippocampus encode nonspatial memories if most of its input is spatial? The goal of the reported simulations is to explain the apparent paucity of non-spatial cells in rodent entorhinal cortex by proposing that grid cells have been misclassified as spatial (see also Luo et al., 2024).

      Given the simplicity of the proposed model, there are important findings that the model cannot address -- it is not that the model makes the wrong predictions but rather that it makes no predictions. The role of running speed (Kraus et al., 2015) is one such variable for which the model makes no predictions. Similarly, because the model is a rate-coded model rather than a model of oscillating spiking neurons, it makes no predictions regarding theta oscillations (Buzsáki & Moser, 2013). The model is an account of learning and memory for an adult animal, and it makes no predictions regarding the developmental (Langston et al., 2010; Muessig et al., 2015; Wills et al., 2012) or evolutionary (Rodrıguez et al., 2002) time course of different cell types. This model contains several purely spatial representations such as border cells, head direction cells, and head direction conjunctive grid cells and it may be that these purely spatial cell types emerged first, followed by the evolution and/or development of non-spatial cell types. However, this does not invalidate the model. Instead, this is a model for an adult animal that has both episodic memory capabilities and spatial navigation capabilities, irrespective of the order in which these capabilities emerged.

      This model has the potential to explain context effects in memory (Godden & Baddeley, 1975; Gulli et al., 2020; Howard et al., 2005). According to this model, different grid cells represent different non-spatial characteristics and place cells represent the combination of these “context” factors and location. In the simulation, just one grid cell is simulated but the same results would emerge when simulating hundreds of different non-spatial inputs provided that all of the simulated non-spatial inputs exist throughout the recording session. However, there is evidence that hippocampus can explicitly represent the passage of time (Eichenbaum, 2014), and time is assuredly an important factor in defining episodic memory (Bright et al., 2020). Thus, although the current model addresses unique combinations of what and where, it is left to future work to incorporate representations of when in the memory model.”

      I recommend explaining the motivation of the theory in more detail in the introduction. It reads as "what if it's like this?" It would be helpful to instead highlight the limitations of current theories and argue why this theory is either a better fit for the data or is logically simpler. 

      This issue and several others are now addressed in the new section in the introduction titled ‘Why Model the Rodent Navigation Literature with a Memory Model?’, which I quoted above in response to the public reviews.

      It's worth considering shortening the results section to include only those that most convincingly support the main claim. The manuscript is quite long and appears to lack focus at times. 

      Thank you for this suggestion. To make the paper more readable and easier for different readers with different interests to choose different aspects of the results to read, the second half of the results have been put in an appendix. More specifically, the second half of the results concerned place cells rather than grid cells. Thus, in this revision, the main text concerns grid cell results and the appendix concerns place cell results.

      The discussion of path dependence on the formation of the grid pattern is important but only briefly discussed. It may be useful to add simulations testing whether different paths (not random walks) produce distorted grid patterns. 

      The short answer is that the path doesn’t affect things in general. The consolidation rule ensures equally spaced memories even if, for instance, one side of the enclosure is explored much more than the other side. As just one example, I have run simulations with a radial arm maze and even though the animal is constrained to only run on the maze arms. The memories still arrange hexagonally as memories become pushed outside the arms. Rather than adding additional simulations to study, I now briefly describe this in the model methods:

      “Of note, the ability of the model to produce grid cell responses does not depend on this decision to simulate an animal taking a random walk – the same results emerge if the animal is more systematic in its path. All that matters for producing grid cell responses is that the animal visits all locations and that the animal takes on different head directions for the same location in the case of simulations that also include head direction as an input to hippocampal place cells.”

      I struggle to understand in Figure 3 why retrieval strength ought to scale monotonically with Euclidean distance, and why that justifies a more complex model (three non-orthogonal dimensions). 

      The introduction to this section now reads: “Animals can plan novel straight line paths to reach a known position and evidence suggests they do so by learning Euclidean representations of space (Cheng & Gallistel, 2014; Normand & Boesch, 2009; Wilkie, 1989). Thus, it was assumed that hippocampal place cells represent positions in Euclidean space (as opposed to non-Euclidean space, such a occurs with a city-block metric).”

      p.17 "although the representational space is a torus (or more specifically a three-torus), it is assumed that the real-world two-dimensional surface is only a section of the torus (e.g., a square piece of tape stuck onto the surface of a donut)." I fail to understand how the realworld surface is only a part of the torus. In the existing theoretical and experimental work on toroidal topology of grid cell activity, the torus represents a very small fraction of the real world, and repeating activity on the toroidal manifold is a crucial feature of how it maps 2D space in a regular manner. Why then here do you want the torus to be larger than the realworld? 

      This section has been rewritten to better explain these assumptions. The relevant paragraphs now read:

      “The cosine tuning curves of the simulated border cells represent distance from the border on both sides of the border (i.e., firing rate increases as the animal approaches the border from either the inside or the outside of the enclosure). Experimental procedures do not allow the animal to experience locations immediately outside the enclosure, but these locations remain an important part of the hypothetic representation, particularly when considering the modification of memories through consolidation (i.e., a memory created inside the enclosure might be moved to a location outside the enclosure). This symmetry about the border cell’s preferred location is needed to maintain an unbiased representation, with a constant sum of squares for the border cell inputs (see methods section). Rather than using linear dimensions, all dimensions were assumed to be circular to keep the model relatively simple. This assumption was made because head direction is necessarily a circular dimension and by having all dimensions be circular, it is easy to combine dimensions in a consistent manner to produce multidimensional hippocampal place cell memories. Thus, the border cells define a torus (or more accurately a three-torus) of possible locations. This provides a hypothetical space of locations that could be represented.

      In light of the assumption to represent border cells with a circular dimension, when a memory is pushed outside the East wall of the enclosure, it would necessarily be moved to the West wall of the enclosure if the period of the circular dimension was equal to the width of the enclosure. If this were true, then the partial grid field on one side of the enclosure would match up with its remainder on the other side. Such a situation would cause the animal to become completely confused regarding opposite sides of the enclosure (a location on the West wall would be indistinguishable from the corresponding location on the East wall). To reduce confusion between opposite sides of the enclosure, the width of the enclosure in which the animal navigated (Figure 5) was assumed to be half as wide as the full period of the border cells. In other words, although the space of possible representations was a three-torus, it was assumed that the real-world twodimensional enclosure encompassed a section of the torus (e.g., a square piece of tape stuck onto the surface of a donut). The torus is better thought of as “playing field” in which different sizes and shapes of enclosure can be represented (i.e., different sizes and shapes of tape placed on the donut). Furthermore, this assumption provides representational space that is outside the box without such locations wrapping around to the opposite side of the box.”

      p.28 "More specifically, egocentric grid cells (e.g., head direction conjunctive grid cells) require stabilization of the place cell memories in the face of ongoing consolidation whereas allocentric grid cells reflect on-average place field positions." and p.32 "if place cells represent episodic memories, it seems natural that they should include head direction (an egocentric viewpoint)." But the head direction signal is not egocentric, it is allocentric. I'm unsure whether this is a typo or a potentially more serious conceptual misunderstanding. 

      Any reference to egocentric has been removed in this revision. In the initial submission, when I used egocentric, I was referring to memories that depended on the head direction of the animal at the time of memory formation. I was using “egocentric” in relation to whether the memory was related to the animal’s personal bodily experience at the time of memory formation. But I concede that this is confusing since the ego/allo distinction is typically used to differentiate angular directions that are relative to the person (left/right) versus earth (East/West). Instead, throughout the manuscript I now refer to these as view-dependent memories since head direction would entail having a different view of the environment at the time of memory formation. I still refer to the stacking of multiple view-dependent memories on the same X/Y location as being the development of an allocentric representation however, since this can be thought of as one way to learn a cognitive map of the enclosure that is view independent.

      p.37 "But if the border cells had changed their alignment with the new enclosure (e.g., if the E border dimension aligned with the North-South borders), then the place cells would have appeared to undergo global remapping as their positions rotated by 90 degrees and the grid pattern would have also rotated." But this would not be interpreted as global remapping by standard analyses of place and grid cell responses. A coherent rotation of firing patterns is not interpreted as remapping. 

      This sentence now reads: “But if the border cells had changed their alignment with the new enclosure (e.g., if the E border dimension aligned with the North-South borders), then the place cells would remain in their same positions relative to the now-rotated borders (i.e., no remapping relative to the enclosure) and the corresponding grid cells would also retain their same alignment relative to the enclosure.”

      p.37 "this is more accurately described as partial remapping (nearly all place fields were unaffected)." If nearly all place fields were unaffected, this should be interpreted as a stable map. Partial remapping is a mix of stability, rate remapping, and global remapping within a population of place cells. 

      This sentence has been removed.

      p.40 "The dependence of grid cell responses on memory may help explain why grid cells have been found for bats crawling on a two-dimensional surface (Yartsev et al., 2011), but three-dimensional grid cells have never been observed for flying bats." This is not true. Ginosar et al. (2021) observed 3D grid cells in flying bats.  

      Thank you for highlighting this issue. In the initial submission I was using “grid cell” to mean a cell that produced a precise hexagonal grid, which is not the case for the 3D grid cells in bats. In this revision, I now discuss grid cell that produce irregular grid fields, writing:

      “According to this model, hexagonally arranged grid cells should be the exception rather than the rule when considering more naturalistic environments. In a more ecologically valid situation, such as with landmarks, varied sounds, food sources, threats, and interactions with conspecifics, there may still be remembered locations were events occurred or remembered properties can be found, but because the non-spatial properties are non-uniform in the environment, the arrangement of memory feedback will be irregular, reflecting the varied nature of the environment. This may explain the finding that even in a situation where there are regular hexagonal grid cells, there are often irregular non-grid cells that have a reliable multi-location firing field, but the arrangement of the firing fields is irregular (Diehl et al., 2017). For instance, even when navigating in an enclosure that has uniform properties as dictated by experimental procedures, they may be other properties that were not well-controlled (e.g., a view of exterior lighting in some locations but not others), and these uncontrolled properties may produce an irregular grid (i.e., because the uncontrolled properties are reliably associated with some locations but not others, hippocampal memory feedback triggers retrieval of those properties in the associations locations).

      In this memory model, there are other situations in which an irregular but reliable multi-location grid may occur, even when everything is well controlled. In the reported simulations, when the hippocampal place cells were based on variation in X/Y (as defined by Border cells), nothing else changed as a function of location, and the model rapidly produced a precise hexagonal arrangement of hippocampal place cell memories. When head direction was included (i.e., real-world variation in X, Y, and head direction), the model still produced a hexagonal arrangement as per face centered cubic packing of memories, but this precise arrangement was slower to emerge, with place cells continuing to shift their positions until the borders of the enclosure were sufficiently well learned from multiple viewpoints. If there is realworld variation in four or more dimensions, as is likely the case in a more ecologically valid situation, it will be even harder for place cell memories to settle on a precise regular lattice. Furthermore, in the case of four dimensions, mathematicians studying the “sphere packing problem” recently concluded that densest packing is irregular (Campos et al., 2023). This may explain why the multifield grid cells for freely flying bats have a systematic minimum distance between firing fields, but their arrangement is globally irregular (Ginosar et al., 2021). Assuming that the memories encoded by a bat include not just the three realworld dimensions of variation, but also head direction, the grid will likely be irregular even under optimal conditions of laboratory control.”

      Multiple typos are found on page 25, end of paragraph 3: "More specifically, if there is one set of non-orthogonal dimensions for enclosure borders and the movement of one wall is too modest as to cause avoid global remapping, this would deform the grid modules based the enclosure border cells."

      As detailed above in the response the public reviews, this paragraph has been rewritten.

    1. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Building on their detailed dissection of the role of Hox-Gbx genes in endomesodermal segmentation in Nematostella, He and colleagues attempt to understand the evolutionary conservation of this process in anthozoans. In a move that should be congratulated, the authors perform this work in the coral M. capitata, a species that is not well established in the lab. The authors show convincing expression data using both RNAseq and in-situ hybridization and discover the conserved expression of Hox-Gbx genes preceding the segmentation of the enodmesoderm. The authors further attempt to understand whether BMP signalling is playing a role in this process and present data that certainly points to this being the case.

      Strength:

      The overall quality of the data is very high and the authors show very convincing expression data for the Hox-Gbx genes as well as putting forward a well-thought-out hypothesis for segment evolution.

      Weakness:

      There are a number of weaknesses in the paper which I believe can be easily addressed:

      (1) The authors in many cases claim to have provided functional evidence for the role of Hox-Gbx genes in M. capitata. This is not, however, the case, and although the expression data along with their previous work in Nematostella make their claims very likely I still believe it is necessary to set a higher bar for claiming to understand function. In the abstract, for example, they claim: "These findings demonstrate the existence of a functionally conserved Hox-Gbx module....", something which is not substantiated by the data presented. At the end of the introduction, they say they "systematically interrogate the molecular functions of Hox-Gbx genes" (line 75) which again is not what is presented in the manuscript. Finally, on line 289-291 the authors state: "Taken together, our findings strongly suggest that the heterochronic deployment of a conserved Hox-Gbx module contributes to the divergent adult body plans observed between Edwardsiidae and other anthozoans." I would remove "Strongly" given the absence of functional data. There are also other examples where functional understanding is implied and I would suggest the authors tone this down throughout the manuscript.

      (2) On Line 185, the authors state "To determine the function of the Hox-Gbx network in M.capitata segmentation..." when introducing their BMP experiments. I would reword this since they are looking at BMP signalling and do not look directly at Hox-Gbx function.

      (3) Although the BMP inhibitor experiments are very interesting I think there is a lack of basic understanding of BMP signalling in this system. Where are the BMP components expressed and how would this match with the hypothesis derived from the data? The authors present some expression patterns in Figure S3 but do not discuss them. In addition, the authors do not show pSMAD staining etc, and do not validate that the inhibitors have an effect on this. I entirely understand the difficulties in doing such experiments in a system like this and would not suggest the authors should now do them but an acknowledgment of this in the discussion would be very welcome.

      (4) In both lines 88 and 294 the authors talk about the mechanism of gastrulation. It is not clear to me how they infer this from the figure. If the authors could include some more high-resolution images that show this it would be very helpful and interesting.

      (5) On line 169/170 the authors state that two Anthox6 paralogs, McAnthox6 and McAnthox6.1, were specifically expressed at the time of settlement. This is not what I see in the images. I see that McAnthox6 is expressed at 14 hpf more strongly than at the later time point. The authors should clarify this point.

      (6) On lines 259-261 the authors state "How temporally and spatially coordinated gene expression can be achieved in this scenario remains an interesting and open question." This seems like a strange statement to include given that they have shown that there is no spatial and temporal collinearity in cnidarians. Surely it is not an open question to ask how it would work if there is none. I would simply remove this.

      (7) The authors should cite the sources of information contained in Fig. S2 including how orthology was assigned.

    1. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this study, Ye et al. have developed a theoretical model of osmotic pressure adaptation by osmolyte production and wall synthesis.

      Strengths:

      They validate their model predictions of a rapid increase in growth rate on osmotic shock experimentally using fission yeast. The study has several interesting insights which are of interest to the wider community of cell size and mechanics.

      Weaknesses:

      Multiple aspects of this manuscript require addressing, in terms of clarity and consistency with previous literature. The specifics are listed as major and minor comments.

      Major comments:

      (1) The motivation for the work is weak and needs more clarity.

      (2) The link between sections is very frequently missing. The authors directly address the problem that they are trying to solve without any motivation in the results section.

      (3) The parameters used in the models (symbols) need to be explained better to make the paper more readable.

      (4) Throughout the paper, the authors keep switching between organisms that they are modelling. There needs to be some consistency in this aspect where they mention what organism they are trying to model, since some assumptions that they make may not be valid for both yeast as well as bacteria.

      (5) The extent of universality of osmoregulation i.e the limitations are not very well highlighted.

      (6) Line 198-200: It is not clear in the text what organisms the authors are writing about here. "Experiments suggested that the turgor pressure induce cell-wall synthesis, e.g., through mechanosensors on cell membrane [45, 46], by increasing the pore size of the peptidoglycan network [5], and by accelerating the moving velocity of the cell-wall synthesis machinery [31]". This however is untrue for bacteria as shown by the study (reference 22 is this paper:  E. Rojas, J. A. Theriot, and K. C. Huang, Response of escherichia coli growth rate to osmotic shock, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 111, 7807 (2014).

      (7) The time scale of reactions to hyperosmotic shocks does not agree with previous literature (reference 22). Therefore defining which organism you are looking at is important. Hence the statement " Because the timescale of the osmoresponse process, which is around hours (Figure 3B), is much longer than the timescale of the supergrowth phase, which is about 20 minutes, the turgor pressure at the growth rate peak can be well approximated by its immediate value after the shock." from line 447 does not seem to make sense. The authors need to address this.

    1. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This manuscript investigates how olfactory representations are transformed along the cortico-hippocampal pathway in mice during a non-associative learning paradigm involving novel and familiar odors. By recording single-unit activity in several key brain regions (AON, aPCx, LEC, CA1, and SUB), the authors aim to elucidate how stimulus identity and experience are encoded and how these representations change across the pathway.

      The study addresses an important question in sensory neuroscience regarding the interplay between sensory processing and signaling novelty/familiarity. It provides insights into how the brain processes and retains sensory experiences, suggesting that the earlier stations in the olfactory pathway, the AON aPCx, play a central role in detecting novelty and encoding odor, while areas deeper into the pathway (LEC, CA1 & Sub) are more sparse and encodes odor identity but not novelty/familiarity. However, there are several concerns related to methodology, data interpretation, and the strength of the conclusions drawn.

      Strengths:

      The authors combine the use of modern tools to obtain high-density recordings from large populations of neurons at different stages of the olfactory system (although mostly one region at a time) with elegant data analyses to study an important and interesting question.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The first and biggest problem I have with this paper is that it is very confusing, and the results seem to be all over the place. In some parts, it seems like the AON and aPCx are more sensitive to novelty; in others, it seems the other way around. I find their metrics confusing and unconvincing. For example, the example cells in Figure 1C show an AON neuron with a very low spontaneous firing rate and a CA1 with a much higher firing rate, but the opposite is true in Figure 2A. So, what are we to make of Figure 2C that shows the difference in firing rates between novel vs. familiar odors measured as a difference in spikes/sec. This seems nearly meaningless. The authors could have used a difference in Z-scored responses to normalize different baseline activity levels. (This is just one example of a problem with the methodology.)

      (2) There are a lot of high-level data analyses (e.g., decoding, analyzing decoding errors, calculating mutual information, calculating distances in state space, etc.) but very little neural data (except for Figure 2C, and see my comment above about how this is flawed). So, if responses to novel vs. familiar odors are different in the AON and aPCx, how are they different? Why is decoding accuracy better for novel odors in CA1 but better for familiar odors in SUB (Figure 3A)? The authors identify a small subset of neurons that have unusually high weights in the SVM analyses that contribute to decoding novelty, but they don't tell us which neurons these are and how they are responding differently to novel vs. familiar odors.

      (3) The authors call AON and aPCx "primary sensory cortices" and LEC, CA1, and Sub "multisensory areas". This is a straw man argument. For example, we now know that PCx encodes multimodal signals (Poo et al. 2021, Federman et al., 2024; Kehl et al., 2024), and LEC receives direct OB inputs, which has traditionally been the criterion for being considered a "primary olfactory cortical area". So, this terminology is outdated and wrong, and although it suits the authors' needs here in drawing distinctions, it is simplistic and not helpful moving forward.

      (4) Why not simply report z-scored firing rates for all neurons as a function of trial number? (e.g., Jacobson & Friedrich, 2018). Figure 2C is not sufficient. For example, in the Discussion, they say, "novel stimuli caused larger increases in firing rates than familiar stimuli" (L. 270), but what does this mean? Odors typically increase the firing in some neurons and suppress firing in others. Where does the delta come from? Is this because novel odors more strongly activate neurons that increase their firing or because familiar odors more strongly suppress neurons?

      (5) Lines 122-124 - If cells in AON and aPCx responded the same way to novel and familiar odors, then we would say that they only encode for odor and not at all for experience. So, I don't understand why the authors say these areas code for a "mixed representation of chemical identity and experience." "On the other hand," if LEC, CA1, and SUB are odor selective and only encode novel odors, then these areas, not AON and aPCx, are the jointly encoding chemical identity and experience. Also, I do not understand why, here, they say that AON and PCx respond to both while LEC, CA1, and SUB were selective for novel stimuli, but the authors then go on to argue that novelty is encoded in the AON and PCx, but not in the LEC, CA1, and SUB.

      (6) Lines 132-140 - As presented in the text and the figure, this section is poorly written and confusing. Their use of the word "shuffled" is a major source of this confusion, because this typically is the control that produces outcomes at the chance level. More importantly, they did the wrong analysis here. The better and, I think, the only way to do this analysis correctly is to train on some of the odors and test on an untrained odor (i.e., what Bernardi et al., 2021 called "cross-condition generalization performance"; CCGP).

    1. MENTZEN O PODATKACH #6: Opodatkowanie kryptowalut

      Summary

      🌍 Avoiding Tax Legally in Other Countries

      Changing tax residency for half a year may help avoid taxes (but it;s complex and rather recommended for very high earnings). You can move for example to: - United Arab Emirates: No crypto tax. - Germany: No tax on crypto sold after holding for 12 months. - Portugal: Similar tax-free policies for holding over a year.

      🔄 What Is Taxed?

      Transactions converting cryptocurrency into fiat currency (e.g., PLN, USD) or purchasing goods like property or pizza with cryptocurrency are taxable. Pure crypto-to-crypto transactions are not taxable.

      📈 How to Calculate Tax

      Calculate the difference between the amount spent to acquire cryptocurrency and the amount earned from its sale. Example: If Bitcoin was bought at $30,000 and sold at $40,000, the taxable income is $10,000.

      💰 Tax Rate Overview

      • Income up to 1 million PLN is taxed at 19%.
      • Income exceeding 1 million PLN incurs an additional 4% solidarity tax, totaling 23% for high earners.

      📃 Keeping Records

      Tax obligations arise at the moment of converting crypto to fiat or goods, not at the time of withdrawal from an exchange. Keep detailed records to avoid issues during audits or when exchanges request proof of funds.

      ⚠️ Challenges and Advice

      Tax laws in Poland are comprehensive and offer few loopholes. Engaging tax professionals is strongly advised to ensure compliance and minimize errors.


      🔄 Deferring Tax Payments in Poland Using Stablecoins

      One strategy involves converting crypto profits into stablecoins at year-end and selling them in the following year to postpone taxation. Below is a detailed breakdown of how the strategy works and its limitations.

      The Concept

      Stablecoins are cryptocurrencies pegged to fiat currencies (e.g., USD or EUR) and have stable values. Using stablecoins in Poland offers a way to legally defer tax payments:

      1. End-of-Year Transaction:

        • Convert your cryptocurrency gains (e.g., Bitcoin) into stablecoins like Tether (USDT) or USD Coin (USDC) at the end of the tax year.
        • These transactions, as crypto-to-crypto conversions, are not taxable in Poland.
      2. Start-of-Year Sale:

        • In the new tax year, sell the stablecoins for fiat currency (e.g., PLN).
        • The taxable event occurs in the following year, deferring the tax obligation.

      Benefits of This Strategy

      1. Tax Payment Deferral:

        • Delays the payment of taxes on your crypto gains by shifting the taxable event to the next year.
      2. Inflation Advantage:

        • Inflation reduces the real value of money over time, decreasing the actual financial burden of the deferred tax.
      3. Liquidity Management:

        • Funds remain accessible as stablecoins, which can be reinvested or used in decentralized finance (DeFi) during the deferral period.

      How Long Can This Be Done in Poland?

      • The strategy can be legally repeated annually for up to 15 years.
      • After 15 years, the deferred gains may be treated differently or trigger tax liabilities due to long-term reporting requirements. It's important to monitor evolving tax regulations in Poland to ensure compliance.

      Key Considerations

      1. Documentation:

        • Maintain detailed records of all transactions, including dates, values, and stablecoin transfers, for tax compliance and audits.
      2. Stablecoin Selection:

        • Choose stablecoins with strong pegs to fiat currencies to avoid price fluctuations that may affect gains or losses.
      3. Regulatory Changes:

        • Polish tax laws are subject to change. Always confirm that the strategy remains valid before executing it.

      Example

      • Year 1 (2023):

        • Bitcoin bought for PLN 50,000.
        • Sold for PLN 150,000 at the end of 2023.
        • Proceeds converted to USDT (not taxable in Poland).
      • Year 2 (2024):

        • USDT sold for PLN 150,000 in January.
        • Taxable gain of PLN 100,000 is reported in the 2024 tax year.

      Limitations

      1. Short-Term Transactions:

        • If stablecoins are sold within the same year as the crypto-to-stablecoin conversion, the tax deferral benefit is lost.
      2. Exchange Fees:

        • Frequent crypto-stablecoin conversions may incur exchange fees, slightly reducing net gains.
      3. Regulatory Risks:

        • Future changes to tax laws or stablecoin regulations could impact the strategy's viability.

      This strategy allows you to legally defer cryptocurrency taxes for a significant period, maximizing your financial flexibility and leveraging stablecoin stability. Always consult a tax professional for tailored advice and compliance.

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The study by Gupta et al. investigates the role of mast cells (MCs) in tuberculosis (TB) by examining their accumulation in the lungs of M. tuberculosis-infected individuals, non-human primates, and mice. The authors suggest that MCs expressing chymase and tryptase contribute to the pathology of TB and influence bacterial burden, with MC-deficient mice showing reduced lung bacterial load and pathology.

      Strengths:

      (1) The study addresses an important and novel topic, exploring the potential role of mast cells in TB pathology.

      (2) It incorporates data from multiple models, including human, non-human primates, and mice, providing a broad perspective on MC involvement in TB.

      (3) The finding that MC-deficient mice exhibit reduced lung bacterial burden is an interesting and potentially significant observation.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The evidence is inconsistent across models, leading to divergent conclusions that weaken the overall impact of the study.

      (2) Key claims, such as MC-mediated cytokine responses and conversion of MC subtypes in granulomas, are not well-supported by the data presented.

      (3) Several figures are either contradictory or lack clarity, and important discrepancies, such as the differences between mouse and human data, are not adequately discussed.

      (4) Certain data and conclusions require further clarification or supporting evidence to be fully convincing.

    2. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The submitted manuscript aims to characterize the role of mast cells in TB granuloma. The manuscript reports heterogeneity in mast cell populations present within the granulomas of tuberculosis patients. With the help of previously published scRNAseq data, the authors identify transcriptional signatures associated with distinct subpopulations.

      Strengths:

      (1) The authors have carried out a sufficient literature review to establish the background and significance of their study.

      (2) The manuscript utilizes a mast cell-deficient mouse model, which demonstrates improved lung pathology during Mtb infection, suggesting mast cells as a potential novel target for developing host-directed therapies (HDT) against tuberculosis.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The manuscript requires significant improvement, particularly in the clarity of the experimental design, as well as in the interpretation and discussion of the results. Enhanced focus on these areas will provide better coherence and understanding for the readers.

      (2) Throughout the manuscript, the authors have mislabelled the legends for WT B6 mice and mast cell-deficient mice. As a result, the discussion and claims made in relation to the data do not align with the corresponding graphs (Figure 1B, 3, 4, and S2). This discrepancy undermines the accuracy of the conclusions drawn from the results.

      (3) The results discussed in the paper do not add a significant novel aspect to the field of tuberculosis, as the majority of the results discussed in Figure 1-2 are already known and are a re-validation of previous literature.

      (4) The claims made in the manuscript are only partially supported by the presented data. Additional extensive experiments are necessary to strengthen the findings and enhance the overall scientific contribution of the work.

    3. Author Response:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The study by Gupta et al. investigates the role of mast cells (MCs) in tuberculosis (TB) by examining their accumulation in the lungs of M. tuberculosis-infected individuals, non-human primates, and mice. The authors suggest that MCs expressing chymase and tryptase contribute to the pathology of TB and influence bacterial burden, with MC-deficient mice showing reduced lung bacterial load and pathology.

      Strengths:

      (1) The study addresses an important and novel topic, exploring the potential role of mast cells in TB pathology.

      (2) It incorporates data from multiple models, including human, non-human primates, and mice, providing a broad perspective on MC involvement in TB.

      (3) The finding that MC-deficient mice exhibit reduced lung bacterial burden is an interesting and potentially significant observation.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The evidence is inconsistent across models, leading to divergent conclusions that weaken the overall impact of the study.

      The strength of the study is the use of multiple models including mouse, non-human primate as well as human samples. The conclusions have now been refined to reflect the complexity of the disease and the use of multiple models.

      (2) Key claims, such as MC-mediated cytokine responses and conversion of MC subtypes in granulomas, are not well-supported by the data presented.

      To address the reviewer’s comments, we will carry out further experimentation to strengthen the link between MC subtypes and cytokine responses.

      (3) Several figures are either contradictory or lack clarity, and important discrepancies, such as the differences between mouse and human data, are not adequately discussed.

      We will further clarify the figures and streamline the discussions between the different models used in the study.

      (4) Certain data and conclusions require further clarification or supporting evidence to be fully convincing.

      We will either provide clarification or supporting evidence for some of the key conclusions in the paper.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The submitted manuscript aims to characterize the role of mast cells in TB granuloma. The manuscript reports heterogeneity in mast cell populations present within the granulomas of tuberculosis patients. With the help of previously published scRNAseq data, the authors identify transcriptional signatures associated with distinct subpopulations.

      Strengths:

      (1) The authors have carried out a sufficient literature review to establish the background and significance of their study.

      (2) The manuscript utilizes a mast cell-deficient mouse model, which demonstrates improved lung pathology during Mtb infection, suggesting mast cells as a potential novel target for developing host-directed therapies (HDT) against tuberculosis.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The manuscript requires significant improvement, particularly in the clarity of the experimental design, as well as in the interpretation and discussion of the results. Enhanced focus on these areas will provide better coherence and understanding for the readers.

      The strength of the study is the use of multiple models including mouse, non-human primate as well as human samples. The conclusions have now been refined to reflect the complexity of the disease and the use of multiple models.

      (2) Throughout the manuscript, the authors have mislabelled the legends for WT B6 mice and mast cell-deficient mice. As a result, the discussion and claims made in relation to the data do not align with the corresponding graphs (Figure 1B, 3, 4, and S2). This discrepancy undermines the accuracy of the conclusions drawn from the results.

      We apologize for the discrepancy which will be corrected in the revised manuscript

      (3) The results discussed in the paper do not add a significant novel aspect to the field of tuberculosis, as the majority of the results discussed in Figure 1-2 are already known and are a re-validation of previous literature.

      This is the first study which has used mouse, NHP and human TB samples from Mtb infection to characterize and validate the role of MC in TB. We believe the current study provides significant novel insights into the role of MC in TB.

      (4) The claims made in the manuscript are only partially supported by the presented data. Additional extensive experiments are necessary to strengthen the findings and enhance the overall scientific contribution of the work.

      We will either provide clarification or supporting evidence for some of the key conclusions in the paper.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, BOUTRY et al examined a cnidarian Hydra model system where spontaneous tumors manifest in laboratory settings, and lineages featuring vertically transmitted neoplastic cells (via host budding) have been sustained for over 15 years. They observed that hydras harboring long-term transmissible tumors exhibit an unexpected augmentation in tentacle count. In addition, the presence of extra tentacles, enhancing the host's foraging efficiency, correlated with an elevated budding rate, thereby promoting tumor transmission vertically. This study provided evidence that tumors, akin to parasitic entities, can also exert control over their hosts.<br /> Strengths:

      The manuscript is well-written, and the phenotype is intriguing.

      Weaknesses:

      The quality of this manuscript could be improved if more evidence were to be provided regarding the beneficial versus detrimental effects of the tumors.

      We thank the reviewer for taking the time to examine our work carefully and for their highly relevant comments and precise suggestions. We have incorporated these suggestions, which greatly improved the clarity of our manuscript concerning the beneficial and detrimental effects of tumors. Specifically, we have added a new analysis and rephrased the results section, as well as the corresponding sentences in the discussion, to enhance clarity.

      Additionally, regarding the impact of tumor size on the development of supernumerary tentacles, we have included as suggested a new analysis that was previously only available in the supplementary materials of the earlier version. This addresses the reviewer's question and significantly enhances the quality of our paper.

      We have thanked the two referees in the Acknowledgements section of our article.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Background and Summary:

      This study addresses the intriguing question of whether and how tumors can develop in the freshwater polyp hydra and how they influence the fitness of the animals. Hydra is notable for its significant morphogenetic plasticity and nearly unlimited capacity for regeneration. While its growth through asexual reproduction (budding) and the associated processes of pattern formation have been extensively studied at the cellular level, the occurrence of tumors was only recently described in two strains of Hydra oligactis (Domazet-Lošo et al, 2014). In that research, an arrest in the differentiation of female germ cells led to an accumulation of germline cells that failed to develop into eggs. In hydra, fertile egg cells typically incorporate nurse cells, which originate from large interstitial stem cells (ISCs) restricted to the germline, through apoptosis. However, this increase in apoptosis activity is absent in "germline tumors," and germline ISCs instead form slowly growing patches that do not compromise tissue integrity. Despite the upregulation of certain genes associated with mammalian neoplasms (such as tpt1 and p23) in this tissue, determining whether this differentiation arrest and the resulting egg patches truly constitute neoplasms remains a challenge.

      The authors have recently published two papers on the ecological and evolutionary aspects of hydra tumor formation (Boutry et al 2022, 2023), which is also the focus of this manuscript. They transplanted tissues derived from animals with germline tumors to wildtype animals and analyzed their growth patterns, specifically the number of tentacles in the host tissue. They observed that such tissues induced the growth of additional tentacles compared to tissues without germline tumors. The authors conclude that this growth pattern (increased number of tentacles) is correlated with "reducing the burden on the host by (over-)compensating for the reproductive costs of tumors" and claim that "transmissible tumors in hydra have evolved strategies to manipulate the phenotype of their host". While it might be stimulating to add a fresh view from other disciplines (here, ecological and evolutionary aspects), the authors completely ignore the current knowledge of the underlying cell biology of the processes they analyze.

      Strengths:

      The study focuses on intriguing questions. Whether and how tumors can develop in the freshwater polyp hydra, and how they influence the fitness of the animals?

      Weaknesses:

      Concept of germline tumors.

      The conceptual foundation of their experiments on germline tumors was the study of Domazet-Lošo et al (2014) introducing the concept of germline tumors in hydra (see above). While this is an intriguing hypothesis, there has been little advancement in comprehending the molecular mechanisms underlying tumor formation in hydra beyond this initial investigation. Germline tumors in hydra do not fully meet the typical criteria for neoplasms observed in mammalian tissues. More importantly, a similar phenotype was already reported by the work of Paul Brien and described as "crise gametique" (Brien, 1966, Biologie de la reproduction animale - Blastogenèse, Gamétogenèse, Sexualisation, ed. Masson & Cie, Paris). This phenomenon of gametic crisis is unique to Hydra oligactis, a stenotherm, cold-adapted cosmopolitan species. In this species, gametogenesis severely impacts the vitality of the polyps, often leading to complete exhaustion and death (Tardent, 1974). Animals can only be rescued during the initial phase of the cold-induced sexual period (see also the research of Littlefield (1984, 1985, 1986, 1991). The observed arrest in differentiation arrest in germline tumors might represent an epigenetically established consequence of surviving gametogenesis. Regrettably, this important work was not mentioned by the authors or by Domazet-Lošo et al. (2014), highlighting a notable gap in the recognition of basic research in this area that might challenge the hydra tumor hypothesis.

      "Super-nummary" tentacles in graft experiments.

      The authors describe that after grafting tissue from animals with germline tumors to wild-type animals, the number of tentacles in the host tissue increased when the donor tissue had germline tumors. A maximum effect of four additional tentacles was found with donor strain H. oligactis robusta and three additional tentacles with donor strain H.oligactis St Petersburg. In general, H.oligactis wild-type host strains had fewer tentacles than H.oligactis St Petersburg strains. This is consistent with the results of Domazet-Lošo et al (2014) who showed that the number of tentacles increased in the strains with germline tumors. What conclusions can be drawn from these experiments? 

      The authors might want to conclude that transmissible tumors in Hydra have developed strategies to manipulate the phenotype of their host. But there is no evidence for this, as essential controls are missing. It is known that the size of hydra polyps is proportion-regulated, i.e. the number of tentacles varies with the size and number of (epithelial) cells. Such controls are missing in the experiments. There is also a lack of controls from wild-type animals in gametogenesis: it is very likely that grafts with wild-type animals with egg spots of comparable size as the germline tumors (see above) will result in similar numbers of tentacles in host tissue.

      We thank the reviewer for their thoughtful comments. While we appreciate the concerns raised, we maintain that the evidence provided by Domazet-Lošo et al. (2014, Nature Communications) supports the relevance of this model, including the suggested comparisons with the expression profiles of individuals undergoing induced sexual reproduction. Our study focuses primarily on the impact of these tumors on the host phenotype rather than their origin. Tumors are defined as accumulations of abnormally proliferating cells. This includes the definition provided by the referee, which describes “apoptosis activity as absent in 'germline tumors,' with germline ISCs forming slowly growing patches.” Compromise of tissue integrity is not a criterion for defining neoplasms, and many benign neoplasms do not meet this criterion. We are interested in continuing this discussion with the referee to better understand the expected evidence and agree that histological nomenclature could be improved. While further investigation into the cell biology of these tumors would be valuable, this is currently beyond the scope of our article but is being pursued in separate research.

      We also appreciate the points raised regarding the definition of germline tumors and the reference to the pioneering work of Paul Brien. However, in that publication, the concept of gametic crisis in H. oligactis describes reproductive exhaustion leading to death, rather than abnormal cell proliferation indicative of a tumor-like phenotype. This distinction likely explains why this specific paper was not cited previously.

      Our study builds on prior research using the same model (e.g., Domazet-Lošo et al. 2014; Boutry et al. 2023) and describes observations across different hydra strains from various locations worldwide (not just two), all conducted under stable warm temperatures that are not conducive to sexual development. These investigations reveal a phenomenon distinct from the senescence observed post-reproduction in H. oligactis. The phenotype we describe, characterized by an accumulation of cells in the ectoderm, aligns with studies referenced by the reviewer from leading groups in hydra research, known for their expertise in hydra cellular biology. We have relied on these studies after carefully reviewing their results and receiving training from these experts. Furthermore, our team is focused on eco-evolutionary topics and does not aim to specialize in cellular biology, as other teams are already dedicated to that field.

      We also thank the reviewer for their comments on the relevance of our findings and the missing controls. However, we have noted that the reviewer may have misunderstood our experimental design and results.

      Firstly, it appears that the reviewer based their critique mainly on the initial sentences of our Results section (illustrated in Figure 2), which outline the donor groups used in our study rather than presenting the results of the grafting experiments. This description alone is insufficient for drawing conclusions, which is why we conducted further analyses using these donor groups grafted onto different recipients. The maximum effects mentioned by the reviewer (+10 tentacles with St. Petersburg tumoral tissue and +8 tentacles with Robusta tumoral tissue, Results Section 2) represent only a part of our study. We encourage the reviewer to focus on the model analyses presented in Results Section 2, which directly relate to the grafting experiments and provide a more comprehensive evaluation of our results and conclusions. These analyses include comparisons between transmissible tumors and spontaneous tumors, offering deeper insights into their effects on tentacle development.

      In our methods (as depicted in Figure 3), we explicitly compared different types of tumorous tissue from various donors, distinguishing between spontaneous and transmissible tumors. Although we avoid labeling spontaneous tumors as "controls" to prevent confusion with healthy tissue controls, they serve as controls to the “treatment” that involves transmissible tumors, and thus are appropriate comparisons for assessing the size effect suggested by the reviewer. Spontaneous and transmissible tumors share similar size and cellular characteristics but differ significantly in the number of tentacles their hosts possess. Furthermore, we refer the reviewer to a relevant study (Ngo et al. 2021) that found no increase in tentacle numbers with larger polyps of healthy tissue. This reference has been included in the revised discussion (line 309 to 312), which now also addresses the potential effect of body size with additional explanations.

      Regarding the suggestion to include controls from animals undergoing gametogenesis, we did not find evidence in the literature indicating an increase in tentacle numbers during this process in hydra. If such studies exist, we kindly request the complete references so we can include them in our discussion. Additionally, as noted in Brien's work, Hydra oligactis undergoing gametogenesis are known to either die or experience significant degeneration afterward. Transplanting tissue from dead or dying (and reproducing) hydras poses technical challenges and raises questions about whether any observed effects result from incomplete gametogenesis, the onset of senescence, or both. While these questions are intriguing, they fall outside the scope of our article.

      In conclusion, we appreciate the opportunity to address these points and reaffirm that our study offers valuable insights into the evolutionary dynamics of interactions between transmissible tumor tissues and host phenotypes in hydra. We remain open to further discussion and welcome any additional feedback to enhance the clarity and robustness of our manuscript.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) If the fitness of hydra is altered in those with spontaneous tumors is the increased number of tentacles associated with those with transmitted tumors able to rescue this phenotype?

      We thank the reviewer for reformulating our results. Indeed, fitness can be restored and even improved in tumorous polyps harboring supernumerary tentacles. This phenomenon, which we referred to as compensation and over-compensation in Section 3 and Figure 4, was initially discussed only in the discussion section. To improve the clarity of our manuscript, we have now specified this in the Conclusion (lines 345 to 347 and some minor rewording in the same paragraph) in the Results section (lines 284 to 286).

      (2) Does the size of the tumor predict the number of tentacles formed?

      We agree that this would be a valuable complementary analysis. We have conducted an analysis considering the qualitative size of the tumors (based on visual categories) and the number of tentacles, which is now included in our paper (lines 160-161; lines 193 to 198; lines 253 to 259; lines 314 - 322).

      (3) Considering the mentioned association of body size with tentacle numbers for hydra, is a change in size a phenotype associated with transmitted tumors, and is such a phenotype transmittable. 

      All tumorous individuals, regardless of their tumor type, exhibit a swollen body. We have added a sentence in the introduction to clarify this point (line 62).

      (4) Is there anything unique about the Rob population that would explain their mass mortality following transplantation? For instance, their resistance to spontaneous tumor formation? Similarly, is there a difference in transplantation success based on the type of tissue transplanted? The authors could address this point in the discussion.

      It is a very old lineage described nearly 80 years ago. It is unknown whether natural populations of Robusta exist, and no reports of any male individuals have been documented. We have added a sentence in the Materials and Methods section to clarify this information (lines 98 to 102).

      (5) What downsides are known about the transmittable tumors in hydra and how present are they in the grafted individuals? Are other physiological aspects such as mobility, regeneration, or sexual reproduction hindered?

      Transmissible tumors have been associated with increased vulnerability to predation and alterations in life history traits, including a higher budding rate and decreased sexual reproduction. While we were unable to measure behavioral traits in this study of our grafted individuals, this is an intriguing avenue for further research. We have included this perspective in the discussion section as a concluding remark (lines 375 to 382). Thanks a lot for the suggestion of this conclusion.

      (6) It is important to explore the mechanisms behind the phenotypic variation conferred by the types of tumors, whether of different lineage or transmissibility. For this purpose, RNA-Seq on the recipients seems like a good starting point.

      Thanks for this suggestion, we've reworded the sentence about this perspective in our discussion to be more precise (line 320).

      Boutry, Justine, Marie Buysse, Sophie Tissot, Chantal Cazevielle, Rodrigo Hamede, Antoine M. Dujon, Beata Ujvari, et al. 2023. « Spontaneously Occurring Tumors in Different Wild-Derived Strains of Hydra ». Scientific Reports 13 (1): 7449. https://doi.org/10.1038/s41598-023-34656-0.

      Domazet-Lošo, Tomislav, Alexander Klimovich, Boris Anokhin, Friederike Anton-Erxleben, Mailin J. Hamm, Christina Lange, et Thomas C. G. Bosch. 2014. « Naturally occurring tumours in the basal metazoan {Hydra} ». Nat Commun 5 (1): 4222. https://doi.org/10.1038/ncomms5222.

      Ngo, Kha Sach, Berta R-Almási, Zoltán Barta, et Jácint Tökölyi. 2021. « Experimental Manipulation of Body Size Alters Life History in Hydra ». Ecology Letters 24 (4): 728‑38. https://doi.org/10.1111/ele.13698.

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      This paper examines the role of MLCK (myosin light chain kinase) and MLCP (myosin light chain phosphatase) in axon regeneration. Using loss-of-function approaches based on small molecule inhibitors and siRNA knockdown, the authors explore axon regeneration in cell culture and in animal models from central and peripheral nervous systems. Their evidence shows that MLCK activity facilitates axon extension/regeneration, while MLCP prevents it.

      Major concerns:

      (1) In the title, authors indicate that the observed effects from loss-of-function of MLCK/MLCP take place via F-actin redistribution in the growth cone. However, there are no experiments showing a causal effect between changes in axon growth mediated by MLCK/MLCP and F-actin redistribution.

      (2) The author combines MLCK inhibitors with Bleb (Figure 6), trying to verify if both pairs of inhibitors act on the same target/pathway. MLCK may regulate axon growth independent of NMII activity. However, this has very important implications for the understanding not only on how NMII works and affects axon extension, but also in trying to understand what MLCP is doing. One wonders if MLCP actions, which are opposite of MLCK, also independent of NMII activity? The authors, in the discussion section, try to find an explanation for this finding, but I consider it fails since the whole rationale of the manuscript is still around how MLCK and MLCP affect NMII phosphorylation.

      What follows is a discussion of the merits and limitations of different claims of the manuscript in light of the evidence presented.

      (1) Using western blot and immunohistochemical analyses, authors first show that MLCK expression is increased in DRG sensory neurons following peripheral axotomy, concomitant to an increase in MLC phosphorylation, suggesting a causal effect (Figure 1). The authors claim that it is common that axon growth-promoting genes are upregulated. It would have been interesting at this point to study in this scenario the regulation of MLCP.

      (2) Using DRG cultures and sciatic nerve crush in the context of MLCK inhibition (ML-7) and down-regulation, authors conclude that MLCK activity is required for mammalian peripheral axon regeneration both in vitro and in vivo (Figure 2). In parallel, the authors show that these treatments affect as expected the phosphorylation levels of MLC.

      The in vitro evidence is of standard methods and convincing. However, here, as well as in all other experiments using siRNAs, no Control siRNAs were used. Authors do show that the target protein is downregulated, and they can follow transfected cells with GFP. Still, it should be noted that the standard control for these experiments has not been done.

      (3) The authors then examined the role of the phosphatase MLCP in axon growth during regeneration. The authors first use a known MLCP blocker, phorbol 12,13-dibutyrate (PDBu), to show that is able to increase the levels of p-MLC, with a concomitant increase in the extent of axon regrowth of DRG neurons, both in permissive as well as non-permissive substrates. The authors repeat the experiments using the knockdown of MYPT1, a key component of the MLC-phosphatase, and again can observe a growth-promoting effect (Figure 3).

      The authors further show evidence for the growth-enhancing effect in vivo, in nerve crush experiments. The evidence in vivo deserves more evidence and experimental details (see comment 2). A key weakness of the data was mentioned previously: no control siARN was used.

      (4) In the next set of experiments (presented in Figure 4) authors extend the previous observations in primary cultures from the CNS. For that, they use cortical and hippocampal cultures, and pharmacological and genetic loss-of-function using the above-mentioned strategies. The expected results were obtained in both CNS neurons: inhibition or knockdown of the kinase decreases axon growth, whereas inhibition or knockdown of the phosphatase increases growth. A main weakness in this set is that drugs were used from the beginning of the experiment, and hence, they would also affect axon specification. As pointed in Materials and Method (lines 143-145) authors counted as "axons" neurites longer than twice the diameter of the cell soma, and hence would not affect the variable measured. In any case, to be sure one is only affecting axon extension in these cells, the drugs should have been used after axon specification and maturation, which occurs at least after 5 DIV.

      (5) In Figure 7, the authors a local cytoskeletal action of the drug, but the evidence provided does not differentiate between a localized action of the drugs and a localized cell activity.

      References:

      (1) Eun-Mi Hur 1, In Hong Yang, Deok-Ho Kim, Justin Byun, Saijilafu, Wen-Lin Xu, Philip R Nicovich, Raymond Cheong, Andre Levchenko, Nitish Thakor, Feng-Quan Zhou. 2011. Engineering neuronal growth cones to promote axon regeneration over inhibitory molecules. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2011 Mar 22;108(12):5057-62. doi: 10.1073/pnas.1011258108.

      (2) Garrido-Casado M, Asensio-Juárez G, Talayero VC, Vicente-Manzanares M. 2024. Engines of change: Nonmuscle myosin II in mechanobiology. Curr Opin Cell Biol. 2024 Apr;87:102344. doi: 10.1016/j.ceb.2024.102344.

      (3) Karen A Newell-Litwa 1, Rick Horwitz 2, Marcelo L Lamers. 2015. Non-muscle myosin II in disease: mechanisms and therapeutic opportunities. Dis Model Mech. 2015 Dec;8(12):1495-515. doi: 10.1242/dmm.022103.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The work by Chuong et al. provides important new insights into the contribution of different molecular mechanisms in the dynamics of CNV formation. It will be of interest to anyone curious about genome architecture and evolution from yeast biologists to cancer researchers studying genome rearrangements.

      Thank you for recognizing the broad significance of our study.

      Strengths:

      Their results are especially striking in that the "simplest" mechanism of GAP1 amplification-non-allelic homologous recombination between the flanking Ty-LTR elements is not the most common route taken by the cells, emphasizing the importance of experimentally testing what might seem on the surface to be obvious answers. One of the important developments of their work is the use of their neural network simulation-based inference (nnSBI) model to derive rates of amplicon formation and their fitness effects.

      We agree with this assessment as the results of our study challenge our intuition that the simplest path to structural variation is the most likely and reveals the great diversity in mechanisms that can lead to large scale changes in the genome.

      Weaknesses:

      The manuscript reads as though two different people wrote two different sections of the manuscript - an experimental evolutionist and a computational scientist. If the goal is to reach both groups of readers, there needs to be more explanation of both types of work. I found the computational sections to be particularly dense but even the experimental sections need clearer explanations and more specific examples of the rearrangements found. I will point out these areas in the detailed remarks to the authors. While I have no reason to question their conclusions, I couldn't independently verify the results that ODIRA was the majority mechanism since the sequence of amplified clones was not made available during the review. I've encouraged the authors to include specific, detailed sequence information for both ODIRA events as well as the specific clones where GAP1 was amplified but the flanking gene GFP was not.

      We have revised the manuscript to expand explanations of both the experimental and computational aspects of our study and to provide additional information for the reader. In doing so, we have edited the text to improve readability. We have made all raw data publicly available through the NCBI short read archive (SRA) and are hosting all sequence data for easy visualization in JBrowse using a public server.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      This study examines how local DNA features around the amino acid permease gene GAP1 influence adaptation to glutamine-limited conditions through changes in GAP1 Copy Number Variation (CNV). The study is well motivated by the observation of numerous CNVs documented in many organisms, but difficulty in distinguishing the mechanisms by which they are formed, and whether or how local genomic elements influence their formation. The main finding is convincing and is that a nearby Autonomous Replicating Sequence (ARS) influences the formation of GAP1 CNVs and this is consistent with a predominate mechanism of Origin Dependent Inverted Repeat Amplification (ODIRA). These results along with finding and characterizing other mechanisms of GAP1 CNV formation will be of general interest to those studying CNVs in natural systems, experimental evolution, and in tumor evolution. While the results are limited to a single CNV of interest (GAP1), the carefully controlled experimental design and quantification of CNV formation will provide a useful guide to studying other CNVs and CNVs in other organisms.

      Thank you for this positive assessment of our study.

      Strengths:

      The study was designed to examine the effects of two flanking genomic features next to GAP1 on CNV formation and adaptation during experimental evolution. This was accomplished by removing two Long Terminal Repeats (LTRs), removing a downstream ARS, and removing both LTRs and the ARS. Although there was some heterogeneity among replicates, later shown to include the size and breakpoints of the CNV and the presence of an unmarked CNV, both marker-assisted tracking of CNV formation and modeling of CNV rate and fitness effects showed that deletion of the ARS caused a clear difference compared to the control and the LTR deletion.

      The consequence of deletion of local features (LTR and ARS) was quantified by genome sequencing of adaptive clones to identify the CNV size, copy number and infer the mechanism of CNV formation. This greatly added value to the study as it showed that i) ODIRA was the most common mechanism but ODIRA is enhanced by a local ARS, ii) non-allelic homologous recombination (NAHR) is also used but depends on LTRs, and iii) de novo insertion of transposable elements mediate NAHR in strains with both ARS and LTR deletions. Together, these results show how local features influence the mechanism of CNV formation, but also how alternative mechanisms can substitute when primary ones are unavailable.

      We agree with this assessment.

      Weaknesses:

      The CNV mutation rate and its effect on fitness are hard to disentangle. The frequency of the amplified GFP provides information about mutation rate differences as well as fitness differences. The data and analysis show that each evolved population has multiple GAP1 CNV lineages within it, with some being unmarked by GFP. Thus, estimates of CNV fitness are more of a composite view of all CNV amplifications increasing in frequency during adaptation. Another unknown but potential complication is whether the local (ARS, LTR) deletions influence GAP1 expression and thus the fitness gain of GAP1 CNVs. The neural network simulation-based inference does a good job at estimating both mutation rates and fitness effects, while also accounting for unmarked CNVs. However, the model does not account for the population heterogeneity of CNVs and their fitness effects. Despite these limitations of distinguishing mutation rate and fitness differences, the authors' conclusions are well supported in that the LTR and ARS deletions have a clear impact on the CNV-mediated evolutionary outcome and the mechanism of CNV formation.

      While it is true that the inferred mutation rate and fitness effect are negatively correlated, as in other studies (Gitschlag et al., 2023; Caspi et al., 2023; Avecilla et al., 2022), our modeling approach does generate an estimate of each parameter that is best explained by the data. By reporting the confidence intervals (i.e. the 95% HDI) we define the set of parameter values that are consistent with the data. It is true that our model doesn't explicitly account for population heterogeneity; rather, following Hegreness et al. (2006), we employ a single effective fitness effect and mutation rate for all GAP1 CNVs. It is interesting to consider whether the ARS and LTR affect GAP1 expression; however, we have no evidence that this is the case.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors represent an elegant and detailed investigation into the role of cis-elements, and therefore the underlying mechanisms, in gene dosage increase. Their most significant finding is that in their system copy number increase frequently occurs by what they call replication errors that result from the origin of replication firing.

      The authors somewhat quantitatively determine the effect of the presence of a proximal origin of replication or LTR on the different CNV scenarios.

      Strengths:

      (1) A clever and elegant experimental design.

      (2) A quantitative determination of the effect of a proximal origin of replication or LTR on the different CNV scenarios. Measuring directly the contribution of two competing elements.

      (3) ODIRA can occur by firing of a distal ARS element.

      (4) Re-insertion of Ty elements is interesting.

      We agree that these are interesting and novel findings from our study.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Overall, the research does not considerably advance the current knowledge. The research does not investigate what the maximum distance between ARS for ODIRA is to occur. This is an important point since ODIRA was previously described. A considerable contribution to the field would be to understand under what conditions ODIRA wins NAHR.

      We agree that these are important questions and they are ones that we are pursuing in future studies.

      (2) The title and some sentences in the abstract give a wrong impression of the generality and the novelty of the observations presented. Below are some examples of much earlier work that dealt with mechanisms of CNV and got different conclusions. The Lobachev lab (Cell 2006) published a different scenario years ago, with a very different mechanism (hair-pin capped breaks). The Argueso lab found something different (NAHR) (Genetics 2013).

      In fact, the CUP1 system presents a good example of this point. The Houseley group showed a complex replication transcription-based mechanism (NAR 2022, cited), the Argueso group showed Ty-based amplification and the Resnick group showed aneuploidy-based amplification. While aneuploidy is a minor factor here the numerous works in Candida albicans, Cryptococcus neoformans, and Yeast suggest otherwise (Selmecki et al Science 2006, Yona et al PNAS 2013, Yang et al Microbiology Spectrum 2021).

      As the reviewer points out there have been several important published studies investigating mechanisms by which structural variation is generated. It is important to note that we are explicitly looking at CNVs in the context of adaptive evolution and the role of genomic features that enable different mechanisms of CNV formation. To emphasize this point, we have changed the title of our manuscript to “Template switching during DNA replication is a prevalent source of adaptive gene amplification”. Aneuploidy is indeed a mechanism of adaptive gene amplification in our current and previously reported studies. We have expanded our discussion to place our study in the context of previous studies reporting mechanisms of gene amplification.

      (3) The authors added a mathematical model to their experimental data. For me, it was very difficult to understand the contribution of the model to the research. I anticipated, for example, that the model would make predictions that would be tested experimentally. For example, " ARSΔ and ALLΔ are predicted to be almost eliminated by generation 116, as the average predicted WT proportion is 0.998 and 0.999" But to my understanding without testing the model.

      In our previous publication (Avecilla et al. 2022, PLoS Biology) we experimentally validated the use of nnSBI to infer evolutionary parameters. In this study, we have extended our modeling framework to quantify differences between genotypes, which was not previously possible. Our results reveal that the local ARS has a key role in the overall supply rate of CNVs at this locus.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      We have addressed all public reviews and recommendations.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Specific comments about the work are covered in the order of appearance in the text or Figures. I apologize in advance for the number of comments. They are made out of curiosity, enthusiasm for the research, and a desire to help highlight the most interesting aspects of this work.

      We are grateful for the thoughtful comments that have helped us to significantly improve our manuscript.

      (1) I would appreciate the inclusion of several references to the work on the ODIRA model.

      a) Page 3 last paragraph: "(2) DNA replication-based mechanisms (Harel et al., 2015; Hastings, Lupski, et al., 2009; Malhotra & Sebat, 2012; Pös et al., 2021; Zhang, Gu, et al., 2009; Brewer et al., 2011)" (Addition of Brewer et al., 2011).

      We have added all suggested references.

      b) Page 4 top: (Brewer et al., 2011; Brewer et al., 2015; Martin et al., 2024). (Addition of Brewer et al., 2011).

      We have added all suggested references.

      c) Page 14 top: "Recent work has proposed that ODIRA CNVs are a major mechanism of CNVs in human genomes (Brewer et al., 2015; Martin et al., 2024; Brewer et al., 2024)." Brewer et al., 2024 focuses specifically on ODIRA and human CNVs. (Addition of Brewer et al., 2024).

      We have added all suggested references.

      (2) Page 6, third paragraph: I was surprised that a single inoculating strain was used to establish the replicate chemostats because of the possibility of non-independence of the resulting GAP1 CNVs. A nnSBI model was used to correct for this possibility later in the paper. It seems like it could have been avoided by a simple change in protocol to inoculate each chemostat with an independent inoculum. Was there a reason that the replicate chemostats were not conducted as independent events? Establishing the presence of 'founder' GAP1 CNVs without GFP seems rather secondary to the point of the paper (examining the CNVs that arise during evolution) and I would recommend it being moved to the supplement.

      As is typical in microbial experimental evolution studies, we aimed to start with genetically identical homogenous populations and observe the emergence and selection of de novo variation. Therefore, we founded independent populations from a single inoculum. However, this study, and our prior work using lineage tracking barcodes, has clearly demonstrated that during the initial growth of the culture used for the inoculum CNVs are generated that contribute to the adaptation dynamics on all derived populations. This unanticipated result now suggests that the reviewer’s suggestion is a valid one - independent populations should be derived from independent inocula and this will be our standard practice in future studies.

      We believe that our results, presented in Figure 2, establishing the presence of pre-existing GAP1 CNVs without the GFP are important as it highlights a limitation of the use of CNV reporters of gene copy number that was not previously known. However, we subsequently show that this class of variant - CNVs that are not detected by the reporter system - can be incorporated into our modeling framework enabling estimation of evolutionary parameters, which we believe is an important finding warranting inclusion in the main text.

      (3) Page 7 first full paragraph: "Finally, we also observe a significant delay (ANOVA, p = 0.00833) in the generation at which the CNV frequency reaches equilibrium in ARS∆ (~generation 112) compared to WT (pairwise t-test, adjusted p = 0.05) . . .". Is the delay in reaching a plateau in Figure 1E just a consequence of the later appearance of CNVs or do the authors believe there are two separate events responsible for this delay? E.g. if the authors think that the delay in reaching a plateau is related to lower selection coefficients of the CNVs that do arise compared to the CNVs of other strains, then this should be explicitly discussed.

      We believe that the delay in reaching equilibrium is a consequence of both a lower CNV formation and reduced selection coefficients. Lower values for the fitness coefficient and formation rate in ARS∆ explain both the delay in CNV appearance and CNV equilibrium as shown by the predicted dynamics (Figure S3B). We have added an explicit discussion of the effect of the ARS on CNV dynamics in paragraph 2 of the Discussion section paragraph 2 starting at line 456.

      (4) Page 7: Incorporating pre-existing CNVs into an evolutionary model: The rationale for how you are able to discount the formation rate of GFP-free CNVs (C-) in your model isn't clear to me. How are you able to assume that these C- events don't form after timepoint 0? Why do you assume a starting population of C- events but not a starting population of C+ events?

      We explored the possibility of modeling C- (amplifications of GAP1 without amplification of the reporter) during the evolution experiment. However, because the rate at which C- events occurs is slower than the rate at which C+ events occur (GAP1 amplifications with amplification of the reporter) we found that the effect was negligible. Importantly, the simple model is sufficient to describe the observed dynamics and thus we do not include these possible rare events.

      (5) Figure 1:

      (a) Panel B: Please put the tRNAs on the line diagrams of the four strains. I first interpreted ALLΔ as missing the tRNAs, too.

      Thank you for this suggestion. We added tRNAs to all diagrams to provide additional detail about the structure of the GAP1 locus.

      (b) Panels C, D, and E: the dark shade of the colored boxplots obscures the individual points. I recommend reducing the opacity of the box or choosing a lighter shade so that the individual points are visible on top of the box. Is the percent increase in CNVs per generation (Panel D) based on the slopes of the curves in panel B? By eye the slopes of ARS∆ and ALL∆ appear at least as steep as those of wild type and LTR∆.

      Thank you for this suggestion. We have now made the individual points visible on top of the boxplots in Figures 1C, 1D, and 1E. The lines in Figure 1B show the median value across populations per time point whereas each point in Figure 1D is the slope from linear regression using values from individual populations (data from individual populations are shown in Figure 3C).

      (6) Figure 2:

      (a) Panel A: Please remind the readers what FSC-A is measuring and label the different groups of cells in each sample. Are we supposed to assume the upper scatter in generation 8 is the pre-existing CNV variants? Are the three species at generation 50 due to 1, 2, and 3 copies of GFP? Is the new species in generation 137 further amplification of the locus? And if so, how many copies does it represent? I find it fascinating that what I assume is the 2-copy CNV (presumably a direct oriented amplicon produced by NAHR) at 50 generations is lost (out-competed by a potential inverted triplication) at later times, but I didn't find any mention of this phenomenon in the text. What do the different mutant strains look like over the same time course? Please supply supplemental figures with the flow cytometry gating and vertically aligned histograms of the GFP signal so that the peaks are more easily compared. And provide this information for each of the altered strains in supplementary materials.

      Thank you for these useful suggestions. We have added a gating legend to the figure to clearly indicate the copy-number for each subpopulation. We have edited the caption and main text to explain forward scatter (FSC-A). Raw flow cytometry plots are now provided as Supplementary figure 2 and distributions of cell-size normalized GFP signal are provided in Supplementary figure 3. Although our primary objective with Figure 2A was to show the persistence of the 1-copy GFP population the reviewer is correct that we did not highlight interesting aspects of the CNV dynamics. We have added additional text starting at line 251 to point out these features of the data.

      (b) Panel B: It would help to label the different colored boxes inside cells in Figure 2B - it took me a while to identify the white box as an unrelated adaptive mutation elsewhere in the genome. The linear arrangement of these small colored blocks seems to indicate their structural arrangement. Is that the case? And are they inverted or direct amplicons? Perhaps the authors are being agnostic at this point but it would be better if each of the blocks were separate. If there are other mutations that can explain these GFP-non-amplified survivors, were they identified in your whole genome sequencing?

      We have now included a complete legend for Figure 2B indicating that the white box reflects other beneficial mutations. We have separated this class of beneficial mutation from the GAP1 and reporter elements to reflect that they are not linked. We did not identify additional beneficial mutations but plan to pursue this question in a future project.

      (c) Panel C: Are the two sets of lines mislabeled? One would expect the "reported" CNV proportions to be lower than the total CNV proportions, not the other way around. Maybe the labels "total CNVs" and "reported CNVs" are unclear to me and I am misunderstanding what "reported" refers to. Please clarify.

      Thank you for identifying this mistake. The lines were mislabeled and have now been corrected in the revised version.

      (7) Figure 3:

      (a) A fuller discussion of panels A and B is needed. The results of panel A in particular seem like an excellent opportunity for connecting the computation to the biology. Can the authors speculate on why the ALL∆ strain has a higher CNV formation rate (𝛿c) than the ARS∆ strain? I would think that taking away one means of amplification would decrease CNV formation. Likewise, could the authors discuss why the selection coefficient (sc) for the LTR∆ strain would be the same as for the wild type? Overall, I would like to see more discussion about what these differences in formation rates and selection coefficients could mean for the types of amplicons arising in the chemostats. (In panel B I don't see the shaded area referred to in the figure legend.) A side-by-side comparison of the data in Panel A with the data shown in Supplemental Figure S3A would be instructive..

      Thank you for raising these points. We have added substantial text to the manuscript to address these findings. Starting at line 456 we state:

      “The lower CNV formation rate in the LTR∆ could be a closer approximation of ODIRA formation rates at this locus as ODIRA CNVs are the predominant CNV mechanism in the LTR∆ strain (Figure 4F). Furthermore, the low formation rates in the LTR∆ relative to WT might suggest that the presence of the flanking long terminal repeats may increase the rate of ODIRA formation through an otherwise unknown combinatorial effect of DNA replication across these flanking LTRs and template switching at the GAP1 locus. ARS∆ has the lowest CNV formation rate and it could be an approximation of the rates of NAHR between flanking LTRs and ODIRA at distal origins. We find that the ALL∆ has a higher CNV formation rate than the ARS∆, even though three elements are deleted instead of one. One explanation for this is that the deletion of the flanking LTRs in ALL∆ gives opportunity for novel transposon insertions and subsequent LTR NAHR. Indeed we find an enrichment of novel transposon-insertions in the ALL∆ (Figure 4F) and subsequent CNV formation through recombination of the Ty1-associated repeats (Figure 4H, ALL∆). Both events, transposon insertion followed by LTR NAHR, would have to occur quickly at a rate that explains our estimated CNV rate in ALL∆. While remarkable, increased transposon activity has been associated with nutrient stress (Curcio & Garfinkel, 1999; Lesage & Todeschini, 2005; Todeschini et al., 2005) and therefore feasible explanation for the CNV rate estimated in the ALL∆. Additionally, ARS∆ clones rely more on LTR NAHR to form CNVs (Figure 4F). The prevalence of ODIRA in ARS∆ and ALL∆ are similar. LTR NAHR usually occurs after double strand breaks at the long terminal repeats to give rise to CNVs (Argueso et al., 2008). Because we use haploid cells, such double strand break and homology-mediated repair would have to occur during S-phase after DNA replication with a sister chromatid repair template to form tandem duplications. Therefore the dependency on LTR NAHR to form CNVs and the spatial (breaks at LTR sequences) and temporal (S-phase) constraints could explain the lower formation rate in ARS∆.”

      In addition, we added a discussion of the different selection coefficients estimated and how the simulated competitions help us understand the decreased selection coefficients in the architecture mutants. In newly added text starting at line 479 we state:

      “The genomic elements have clear effects on the evolutionary dynamics in simulated competitive fitness experiments. The similar selection coefficients in WT and LTR∆ suggest that CNV clones formed in these background strains are similar. Indeed, the predominant CNV mechanism in both is ODIRA followed by LTR NAHR (Figure 4F). While LTR NAHR is abolished in the LTR∆, it seems that CNVs formed by ODIRA allow adaptation to glutamine-limitation similar to WT. The lower selection coefficients in ARS∆ and ALL∆ suggest that GAP1 CNVs formed in these strains have some cost. In a competition, they would get outcompeted by CNV alleles in the WT and LTR∆ background.”

      (b) The data shown in panel C seems redundant to what is shown more clearly in Supplemental Figure S3B. It seems to me the more important comparison to make in panel C would be the overlay of the predicted data to the median proportion of cells obtained from the experimental data (Figure 1B). Also, overlays of the cultures from each strain could be added to S3A. It is difficult to see the variation within each strain when the data from all four strains are superimposed as they are in Figure 3C.

      We agree and have edited Figure 3C to incorporate these suggestions and more clearly convey the intra- and interstrain variation.

      (8) Figure 4:

      (a) Panels A, B, and C are nice summaries and certainly helpful for understanding panel E, but it would be instructive to see some actual rearrangements of the ODIRA events, the NAHR, and the transposon-mediated rearrangements. It isn't clear to me what these last events look like. A figure that shows the specific architecture of example clones for each category would be helpful. I am also having a hard time reconciling ODIRA events with a copy number of 2. Are these rearrangements free isochromosomes with amplification to the telomere or are they secondary rearrangements like those described in Brewer et al., 2024? And what about the non-aneuploid rearrangement that includes the centromere? Is it a dicentric?

      We have now added more detailed depictions of CNVs in Figure 4A and provide links to visualize the alignment files. We have added additional discussion starting at line 397 of the non-canonical ODIRA events and putative neochromosome amplicons with reference to Brewer et al 2024. Starting at line 397 we state:

      “Surprisingly, we found CNVs with breakpoints consistent with ODIRA that contained only 2 copies of the amplified region, whereas ODIRA typically generates a triplication. In the absence of additional data, we cannot rule out inaccuracy in our read-depth estimates of copy numbers for these clones (ie. they have 3 copies). An alternate explanation is a secondary rearrangement of an original inverted triplication resulting in a duplication (Brewer et al., 2024); however, we did not detect evidence for secondary rearrangements in the sequencing data. A third alternate explanation is that a duplication was formed by hairpin capped double-strand break repair (Narayanan et al., 2006). Notably, we found 3 additional ODIRA clones that end in native telomeres, each of which had amplified 3 copies. In these clones the other breakpoint contains the centromere, indicating the entire right arm of chromosome XI was amplified 3 times via ODIRA, each generating supernumerary chromosomes. Thus,ODIRA can result in amplifications of large genomics regions from segmental amplifications to supernumerary chromosomes.”

      (b) In Panel B the violin plots appear to indicate that there are two size categories for amplicons in the ARS∆ strain. Do clones from these different sub-populations share a common CNV architecture?

      Thank you for making this point. (Please note that the violin plots are now Figure 4E) We added a short discussion and Supplementary Figure 14. In line 432, we state:

      “In ARS∆, we find two CNV length groups (Figure 4E) that correspond with two different CNV mechanisms (Supplementary Figure 14). 100% of smaller CNVs (6-8kb) (Supplementary Figure 14) correspond with a mechanism of NAHR between LTRs flanking the GAP1 gene (Figure 4H, ARS∆, bottom left green points). Larger CNVs (8kb-200kb) (Supplementary Figure 14) correspond with other mechanisms that tend to produce larger CNVs, including ODIRA and NAHR between one local and one distal LTR element (Figure 4H).”

      (c) Panels D and E: There is great information in these two panels but I find the color keys confusing. There doesn't seem to be any reason for the strain color key in panel E. I am assuming that the key should go with Panel D. Is there some way to indicate in Panel D which events are in which CNV category? It is cumbersome to find that information from Panel E. Perhaps the color-coding from Panel E could be applied to the row labels in Panel D. Being able to link amplicon to the mechanism of CNV formation is especially important for seeing which ODIRA events contain an origin.

      Thank you for this suggestions. We now indicate the mechanism of CNV formation using a consistent color coding in panels G and H (previously panels D and E).

      (d) Panel E: I don't understand the two axes in Panel E. If both axes are log scales, why is the origin 0 for the X-axis and 1 for the Y-axis? And why are the focal amplicons (most of which are recombination events between the two LTRs) scattered in both X and Y coordinates? Shouldn't they form a single point? The same for the recombinants with distal LTRs. Also, orange and red (ODIRA and complex CNVs, respectively) are very hard to distinguish. All of these data need to be presented in a spreadsheet identifying each clone's strain ID, chemostat number, GAP1 and GFP copy numbers, sequence across the junction, and their coordinates. The SRA project (PRJNA1016460) for the sequence data was not found in SRA. Will this data be available to easily look at read depth across chromosome XI for all of the sequenced strains - perhaps as .bam files?

      Thank you for calling these issues with data visualization to our attention. Indeed, the focal amplifications do form around a single point. We originally had jittered the data to show each individual focal amplification but agree that this is confusing. We now overlay the individual points and have altered opacity to enable visualization of individual values. The suggested table of clone data is provided in Supplementary File 2 and the SRA project is now publicly available. Moreover, we are providing all alignment (.bam) files, split, and discordant read depth profiles for each CNV strain and their corresponding ancestor aligned to our custom reference genomes in a public jbrowse server at:

      https://jbrowse.bio.nyu.edu/gresham/?data=data/ee_gap1_arch_muts for WT strains, https://jbrowse.bio.nyu.edu/gresham/LTRKO_clones for LTR∆ strains, https://jbrowse.bio.nyu.edu/gresham/ARSKO_clones for ARS∆ strains, https://jbrowse.bio.nyu.edu/gresham/ALLKO_clones for ALL∆ strains.

      (e) Supplementary Table 1 and Supplementary Figure S2: Please indicate which rearrangements (of the 8 reported in Figure S2A) were identified in each of the clones described in the table. If each of the 8 amplicons is identified by a letter, then this information could be added as a column in the table. I am assuming that each of the eight rearrangements was found in more than one chemostat. Showing these data is crucial for establishing the possibility that they were preexisting at the time of chemostat inoculation. The other possibility is that the clones with amplified GAP1 but a single copy of GFP could have been created by a secondary rearrangement in the outgrowth of the clones that originally had amplified both genes to the same extent. What is the structure of these amplicons? Is there a common junction between GAP1 and GFP? I couldn't find these data in the paper. A suggestion for Supplemental Figure S2A - include a zoomed-in inset for the GAP1 GFP region for each of the 8 read-depth plots. It is hard to see the exact location of GFP and GAP1 across all 8 tracks without getting out a ruler. Were these sequences aligned to your custom reference genome or the reference genome without GFP? If they were aligned to the custom reference that includes the GFP reporter, the reader could visually confirm the absence of GFP amplification.

      Thank you for these suggestions. We edited Supplementary Table 1 and Supplementary Figure 1A as requested. We now provide the precise CNV breakpoints in the GFP-GAP1 region (supplemental figure 1B) displaying both genome read depth and split read depth tracks. These sequences were aligned to the custom reference containing the GFP reporter, which is now clearer in the figure and caption text in line 1226.

      The clones in this figure were sampled from the five different chemostats and we have clarified this in the edited table and text at line 210. We did not detect the same CNV allele in different chemostats and therefore we do not have evidence to support GAP1 amplification without the GFP reporter pre-existing at time of inoculation. We are not able to definitively distinguish whether the amplicons were pre-existing at the time of inoculation or occurred after as we do not have barcoded lineages. We isolated clones carrying this class of amplification from the 1-GFP-copy subfraction late in the experimental evolution (generation 165-182). Given that the alleles appear to differ between populations we think the most parsimonious explanation is that these amplifications occurred after chemostat inoculation but early in the evolution experiment. We explicitly state this in the text starting in line 219.

      (9) Page 8-9: I am sorry to say that I can't evaluate the "HDI of posterior distributions". It is out of my competency range. So I am not sure what this analysis is adding to the paper. The same goes for the rest of the supplementary figures.

      HDI is a measure of certainty in an estimate, similar to confidence interval. We state this in the text in line 276. With the editing of the text we hope the modeling and its supplementary figures are more clear now.

      (10) Page 9 top: Deletion of the ARS appears to lower the fitness of the amplified GAP1 variants. Can the authors speculate on why the ARS deletion would reduce fitness? Did they consult published replication profiles to determine the size of the origin-free gap that could result from the deletion of this mid-S phase origin? Could it explain the delay in the appearance of GAP1 amplicons in the ARS-deletion strains and be responsible for their reduced selection coefficients? Did you examine the growth properties of the starting strain or any of the amplified GAP1 derivatives? Perhaps this consideration could contribute to the discussion. Could there be a bit fuller discussion on the interaction between CNV length differences as shown in Figure 4A and differences in selection coefficient as determined by the nnSBI?

      Thank you for raising this point. We have now added text to our discussion of the reduced fitness in ARS∆ in relation to DNA replication starting on line 359:

      “ARS1116 is a major origin (McGuffee et al., 2013) and ODIRA CNVs found around this origin corroborate its activity. GAP1 is highly transcribed in glutamine-limited chemostats (Airoldi et al., 2016). Head-on transcription-replication collisions at this locus may be contributing to the higher CNV formation rate in wild type and LTR∆. Elimination of the local ARS could result in less transcription-replication collisions and the slower CNV formation rates estimated. Once formed they get outcompeted by faster-forming CNVs and thus in theory are less fit than CNVs in other strain backgrounds. These simulated competitions further suggest that the ARS is a more important contributor to adaptive evolution mediated by GAP1 CNVs.”

      We examined replication profiles in McGuffee et al. Mol Cell. 2013 but could not determine the size of the origin-free gap. ARS1116 and its neighboring ARSs, ARS1118 downstream and ARS1115 upstream are efficient firing origins (Supplement 1 of McGuffee et al. 2013) and therefore the gap is likely to be minimal. The dynamics of the distal firing ARS elements involved in creating ODIRA CNVs might explain the reduced fitness, but further experiments would be required to address this. Regarding growth properties, the growth rate at steady-state in the chemostat is the same as the dilution rate regardless of strain background. Because we had the same dilution rate for each chemostat, the ARS∆ populations would have the same replication rate as the other three strains even if there may be replication rate differences in bulk culture growth. Finally, we found no significant interaction between CNV length and selection coefficients and we state this in line 359.

      (11) Page 10: WT competition simulations: It may help to explicitly state that the competition modeling approach was experimentally validated in Avecilla 2022 as opposed to just citing the paper. I found the results much more convincing after reading Avecilla 2022, but I imagine many readers may skip that.

      We added a sentence to state that the nnSBI method was experimentally validated in Avecilla et 2022 at line 249.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Figure 2: says reported CNV proportions (dashed). This may be a typo since I think the GFP reported should be solid, not dashed. Also, (C) isn't bold.

      Thank you for identifying these mistakes. We have corrected the figure’s caption in line 1157.

      (2) "compared to 898/345 clones" Does this refer to transposition/clone? Seems more natural to compare clones with transpositions to a total number of clones. This could be clarified.

      We rephrased the sentence (lines 519-520) to clarify that in their study Hays et al. 2023 found 898 novel Ty insertions across 345 nitrogen-evolved clones. As a result of this high rate of transposition, some clones are expected to have multiple Ty insertions.

      (3) The methods state that Kan replaces the Nat cassette that was used to make the deletions. It should be made more clear whether Kan is present and where Kan is with respect to GFP and GAP1.

      Thank you for pointing this out. To clarify we added the following sentence to the methods starting in line 567:

      “The CNV reporter is 3.1 kb and located 1117 nucleotides upstream of the GAP1 coding sequence. It consists of, in the following order, an ACT1 promoter, mCitrine (GFP) coding sequence, ADH1 terminator, and kanamycin cassette under control of a TEF promoter and terminator.”

      Additionally in line 571 we clarify the drug resistance of the genomic architecture ∆ strains that are kanamycin(+) and nourseothricin(-).

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) The major advancement of the manuscript is stated in the title "DNA replication errors are a major source of adaptive gene amplification" First, in my humble opinion the term replication errors is not quite right; the term template switching is more accurate. In that regard, recently a paper was published just on this topic (Martin et al Plos Genetics, 2024).

      We have changed the title to “Template-switching during DNA replication is a prevalent source of adaptive gene amplification”. We cite Martin et al Plos Genetics 2024 throughout the main text in lines 93, 126, 159, 502, 555.

      (2) I find the statement "We find that 49% of all GAP1 CNVs are mediated by the DNA replication-based mechanism Origin Dependent Inverted Repeat Amplification (ODIRA) regardless of background strain." Somewhat misleading, there were considerable differences between the strains. If I am not mistaken the range was 20-80%.

      Thank you for pointing this out. Indeed, the range was 26-80% across the four strains. We updated this sentence in the abstract at line 40, and in the main text at line 141 to clearly state the range.

      (3) In their attempt to fill the gap of knowledge regarding the fitness effect of the adaptive CNV the authors use a mathematical model. As an experimental biologist, I found the description lacking. It is hard for me to evaluate the contribution of the model to understanding the results and I think the authors could improve this part.

      We have edited the text regarding the modeling and associated results and hope that it is now more clear. The mathematical model describes the experiment in a simplified manner. We use it to predict the outcomes of additional experiments without additional experimental work. For example, we used it to simulate a competition between two strains, predict the total proportion of GAP1 CNVs, and predict the relative genetic diversity.

      (4) Experiments the authors may want to consider to increase the novelty of their work:

      a) Place the GAP1 gene right in the middle of the two most distant ARS elements and test the mechanism of CNV.

      Thank you for this proposed experiment. It is beyond the scope of this paper and will be pursued in future studies.

      b) The finding of de-novo Ty element insertion is interesting. What happens if the overdose strain of Jef Boeke is used (Retrotransposon overdose and genome integrity, PNAS 2009) or in contrast, a reverse transcriptase deficient strain?

      We agree. Our study has revealed a critical role for novel Ty insertion in mediating CNVs. The suggested experiments as well as using strains that lack Ty sequences will be very interesting to explore in followup studies.

      c) The genomic analyses were based on single colony isolates. To my understanding, the CNV events are identified at least partly by split reads. Therefore, each event may have a "signature" that is unique and can be concluded from single reads and not necessarily from the assembled genome. If true, a distinction between the scenarios could be achieved if bulk cultures are sequenced with enough depth. Thus, a truly dynamic and quantitative determination of the different events, rate of appearance, and disappearance can be made.

      Thank you for this suggestion, which is a good idea but not currently feasible for several reasons. First, although split reads are a powerful way to detect CNV breakpoints, we have found that even at high coverage (21-153X, median 78.5X), in clonal samples that are rare with only 3-30 split reads (median 14) detected. These observations are from a total of 23 breakpoints across 16 sequenced clones. Thus, when sequencing heterogeneous cultures, in which different CNVs only comprise a fraction of the population, our ability to detect single CNV alleles by split reads and quantify their frequency is limited. Given our observations, with a median of 14 split reads when sequencing to 78.5X genome-wide read coverage it is possible we may be able to detect an individual CNV allele once it makes up (14/78.5) 17% of the population. However, our previous study has shown that there are tens to hundreds of unique CNV alleles initially and thus this would only be feasible at very late timepoints. Second, recurrent CNVs may occur independently at the same exact location, such as LTR NAHR. Thus, unique signatures may not be obtained even if they are independent events. Third, it would be not appropriate to pursue this analysis with our current dataset, as we lack lineage tracking barcodes to validate the results.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      The authors sometimes seem to equivocate on to what extent they view their model as a neural (as opposed to merely behavioral) description. For example, they introduce their paper by citing work that views heterogeneity in strategy as the result of "relatively independent, separable circuits that are conceptualized as supporting distinct strategies, each potentially competing for control." The HMM, of course, also relates to internal states of the animal. Therefore, the reader might come away with the impression that the MoA-HMM is literally trying to model dynamic, competing controllers in the brain (e.g. basal ganglia vs. frontal cortex), as opposed to giving a descriptive account of their emergent behavior. If the former is really the intended interpretation, the authors should say more about how they think the weighting/arbitration mechanism between alternative strategies is implemented, and how it can be modulated over time. If not, they should make this clearer.

      The MoA-HMM is meant to be descriptive in identifying behaviorally distinct strategies. Our intention in connecting it with a “mixture-of-strategies” view of the brain is that the results of the MoA-HMM could be indicative of an underlying arbitration process, but not modeling that process per se, that can be used to test neural hypotheses driven by this idea. We’ve added additional clarification in the discussion to highlight this point.

      Explicitly, we added the following sentence in the discussion: “For example, while the MoA-HMM itself is a descriptive model of behavior and is not explicitly modeling an underlying arbitration of controllers in the brain, the resulting behavioral states may be indicative of underlying neural processes and help identify times when different neural controllers are prevailing”

      Second, while the authors demonstrate that model recovery recapitulates the weight dynamics and action values (Fig. 3), the actual parameters that are recovered are less precise (Fig. 3 Supplement 1). The authors should comment on how this might affect their later inferences from behavioral data. Furthermore, it would be better to quantify using the R^2 score between simulated and recovered, rather than the Pearson correlation (r), which doesn't enforce unity slope and zero intercept (i.e. the line that is plotted), and so will tend to exaggerate the strength of parameter recovery.

      In the methods section, we noted that the interaction between parameters can cause the recovery of randomly drawn parameter sets to fail, as seen in Figure 3 Supplement 1. This is because there are parameter regimes (specifically when a softmax temperature is near zero) which causes choices to be random, and therefore other parameters no longer matter. To address this, we included a second supplemental figure, Figure 3 Supplement 2, where we recovered model parameters from data simulated solely from models inferred from the behavioral data. Recovery of these models is much more precise, which credits our later inferences from the behavioral data.

      To make this point clearer, we changed the reference to Figure 3 Supplements 1 & 2 to: “(Figure 3 – figure supplement 1 for recovery of randomized parameters with noted limitations, and figure supplement 2 for recovery of models fit to real data)” We additionally added the following to the Figure 3 Supplement 1 caption: “Due to the interaction between different model parameters (e.g. a small 𝛽 weight will affect the recoverability of the agent’s learning rate 𝛼), a number of “failures” can be seen.”

      Furthermore, we added an R^2 score that enforces unity slope and zero intercept alongside the Pearson correlation coefficient for more comprehensive metrics of recovery. The R^2 scores are plotted on both Figure 3 Supplements 1 & 2 as “R2”, and the following text was added in both captions: “"r" is the Pearson's correlation coefficient between the simulated and recovered parameters, and "R2" is the coefficient of determination, R2, calculating how well the simulated parameters predict the recovered parameters.”

      Finally, the authors are very aware of the difficulties associated with long-timescale (minutes) correlations with neural activity, including both satiety and electrode drift, so they do attempt to control for this using a third-order polynomial as a time regressor as well as interaction terms (Fig. 7 Supplement 1). However, on net there does not appear to be any significant difference between the permutation-corrected CPDs computed for states 2 and 3 across all neurons (Fig. 7D). This stands in contrast to the claim that "the modulation of the reward effect can also be seen between states 2 and 3 - state 2, on average, sees a higher modulation to reward that lasts significantly longer than modulation in state 3," which might be true for the neuron in Fig. 7C, but is never quantified. Thus, while I am convinced state modulation exists for model-based (MBr) outcome value (Fig. 7A-B), I'm not convinced that these more gradual shifts can be isolated by the MoA-HMM model, which is important to keep in mind for anyone looking to apply this model to their own data.

      We agree with the reviewers that our initial test of CPD significance was not sufficient to support the claims we made about state differences, especially for Figure 7D. To address this, we updated the significance test and indicators in Figure 7B,D to instead signify when there is a significant difference between state CPDs. This updated test supports a small, but significant difference in early post-outcome reward modulation between states 2 and 3.

      We clarified and updated the significance test in the methods with the following text:

      “A CPD (for a particular predictor in a particular state in a particular time bin) was considered significant if that CPD computed using the true dataset was greater than 95% of corresponding CPDs (same predictor, same state, same time bin) computed using these permuted sessions. For display, we subtract the average permuted session CPD from the true CPD in order to allow meaningful comparison to 0.

      To test whether neural coding of a particular predictor in a particular time bin significantly differed according to HMM state, we used a similar test. For each CPD that was significant according to the above test, we computed the difference between that CPD and the CPD for the same predictor and time bin in the other HMM states. We compare this difference to the corresponding differences in the circularly permuted sessions (same predictor, time bin, and pair of HMM states). We consider this difference to be significant if the difference in the true dataset is greater than 95% of the CPD differences computed from the permuted sessions.”

      We updated the significance indicators above the panels in Figure 7B,D (colored points) to refer to significant differences between states, with additional text to the left of each row of points to specify the tested state and which states it is significantly greater than. We updated the figure caption for both B and D to reflect these changes.

      We also changed text in the results to focus on significant differences between states. Specifically, we replaced the sentence “Looking at the CPD of expected outcome value split by state (Figure 7B) reveals that the trend from the example neuron is consistent across the population of OFC units, where state 2 shows the greatest CPD.” with the sentence “Looking at the CPD of expected outcome value split by state (Figure 7B) reveals that the trend from the example neuron is consistent across the population of OFC units, where state 2 has a significantly greater CPD than states 1 and 3.”

      We also replaced the sentence “Suggestively, the modulation of the reward effect can also be seen between states 2 and 3 – state 2, on average, sees a higher modulation to reward that lasts significantly longer than modulation in state 3.” with the sentence “Additionally, the modulation of the reward effect can also be seen between states 2 and 3 — immediately after outcome, we see a small but significantly higher modulation to reward during state 2 than during state 3.”

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      There were a lot of typos and some figures were mis-referenced in the text and figure legends.

      We apologize for the numerous typos and errors in the text and are grateful for the assistance in identifying many of them. We have taken another thorough pass through the manuscript to address those identified by the reviewer as well as fix additional errors. To reduce redundancy, we’ll address all typoand error-related suggestions from both reviewers here.

      ● We fixed all Figure 1 references. We additionally reversed the introduction order of the agents in Figure 1 and in the results section “Reinforcement learning in the rat two-step task”, where we introduce both model-free agents before both model-based agents. This is to make the model-based choice agent description (which references the model-free choice agent in the statement “That is, like MFc, this agent tends to repeat or switch choices regardless of reward”) come after introducing the model-free choice agent.

      ● We fixed all Figure 4 references.

      ● We fixed all Figure 6 references and fixed the panel references in the figure caption to match the figure labeling: Starting with panel B, the reference to (i) was removed, and the reference to (ii) was updated to C. The previous reference to C was updated to D.

      ● All line-numbered suggestions were addressed.

      ● The text “(move to supplement?)” was removed from the methods heading, and the mistaken reference to Q_MBr was fixed.

      ● We removed all “SR” acronyms from the statistics as it was an artifact from an earlier draft.

      ● We homogenized notation in Figure 2, replacing all “c” variable references with “y”, as well as homogenized notation of β

      ● We replaced many uses of the word “action” with the word “choice” for consistency throughout the manuscript.

      ● We addressed many additional minor errors

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Could the authors comment on why the cross-validated accuracy continues to increase, albeit non-significantly, after four states, as opposed to decreasing (as I would naively expect would be the result due to overfitting)?

      Due to the large amounts of trials and sessions obtained from each rat (often >100 sessions with >200 trials per session) and the limited number of training iterations (capped at 300 iterations), it is not guaranteed that the cross-validated accuracy would decrease over the range of states we included in Figure 4, especially given that the number of total parameters in the largest model shown (7-states, 95 parameters) is greatly less than the number of observations. Since we’re mainly interested in using this tool to identify interpretable, consistent structure across animals, we did not focus on interpreting the regime of larger models.

      (2) It seems like the model was refit multiple times with different priors ("Estimation of Population Prior"), each derived from the previous step of fitting. I'm not very familiar with fitting these kinds of models. Is this standard practice? It gives off the feeling of double-dipping. It would be helpful if the authors could cite some relevant literature here or further justify their choices.

      We adopted a “one-step” hierarchical approach, where we estimate the population prior a single time on (nearly) unconstrained model fits, and use it for a second, final round of model fits which were used for analysis. Since the prior is only estimated once, in practice there isn’t risk of converging on an overly constrained prior. This is a somewhat simplified approach motivated by analogy to the first step of EM fit in a hierarchical model, in which population- and subject-level parameters are iteratively re-estimated in terms of one another until convergence (Huys et al., 2012; Daw 2010). We have clarified this approach in the methods with citations by adding the following paragraph:

      “Hierarchical modeling gives a better estimate of how model parameters can vary within a population by additionally inferring the population distribution over which individuals are likely drawn (Daw, 2011). This type of modeling, however, is notoriously difficult in HMMs; therefore, as a compromise, we adopt a “one-step” hierarchical model, where we estimate population parameters from “unconstrained” fits on the data, which are then used as a prior to regularize the final model fits. This approach is motivated by analogy to the first step of EM fit in a hierarchical model, in which population- and subject-level parameters are iteratively re-estimated in terms of one another until convergence (Daw, 2011; Huys et al., 2012). It is important to emphasize, since we aren’t inferring the population distributions directly, that we only estimate the population prior a single time on the “unconstrained” fits as follows.”

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      Figure 3a.iii: Did the model capture the transition probabilities correctly as well?

      We have updated Figure 3E to include additional panels (iii) and (iv) to show the recovered initial state probabilities and transition matrix.

      For Figure 6, panel B makes it look like there is a larger influence of state on ITI rate after omission, in both the top and bottom plots. However, the violin plots in panel C show a different pattern, where state has a greater effect on ITIs following rewarded trials. Is it that the example in panel B is not representative of the population, or am I misinterpreting?

      We thank the reviewer for catching this issue, as the colors were erroneously flipped in panel C. We have fixed this figure by ensuring that the colors appropriately matched the trial type (reward or omission). Additionally, we updated the colors in B and C that correspond to reward (previously gray, now blue) and omission (previously gold, now red) trials to match the color scheme used in Figure 1. We also inverted the corresponding line styles (reward changed to solid, omission changed to dashed) to match the convention used in Figure 7. To differentiate from the reward/omission color changed, we additionally changed the colors in Figure 6D and Figure 7 Supplement 1, where the color for “time” was changed from blue to gray, and the color for “state” was changed from red to gold.

      For figure 4B right, I am confused. The legend says that this is the change in model performance relative to a model with one fewer state. But the y-axis says it's the change from the single-state model. Please clarify.

      The plot is showing the increase in performance from the single-state model, while the significance tests were done between consecutive numbered states. We updated the significance indicators on the plot to more clearly identify that adjacent models are being compared (with the exception of the 2-state model, which is being compared to 0). We updated the Figure 4B caption text for the left panel to state: “Change in normalized, cross-validated likelihood when adding additional hidden states into the MoA-HMM, relative to the single-state model. Significant changes are computed with respect to models with one fewer states (e.g. 2-state vs 1-state, 3-state vs 2-state)”

    1. Sommaire du webinaire "Citoyenneté(s)" avec timestamps

      Introduction (0:00 - 2:00)

      • 0:00 - 0:20: Introduction musicale.
      • 0:20 - 0:44: Yannick Mével, professeur retraité d'histoire-géographie et directeur de publication des Cahiers Pédagogiques, présente le webinaire consacré au dernier numéro de la revue, intitulé "Citoyenneté(s)".
      • 0:44 - 1:16: Présentation de Ben Aïda, professeur des écoles et formateur, qui anime le chat du webinaire.
      • 1:16 - 1:54: Explication du déroulement du webinaire en plusieurs étapes : présentation par les intervenants, puis discussions et dialogue entre les participants et avec l'assistance.
      • 1:54 - 2:00: Introduction de Camille Roelens, enseignant-chercheur en philosophie de l'éducation, et Aurélie Zwang, enseignante-chercheuse en sciences de l'éducation, coordonnateurs du dossier "Citoyenneté(s)".

      Présentation du dossier "Citoyenneté(s)" (2:00 - 7:31)

      • 2:00 - 3:05: Camille Roelens explique l'origine du dossier : la nécessité de resituer la question de l'éducation à la citoyenneté dans sa complexité et de sortir des évidences.
      • 3:05 - 4:15: Discussion sur la signification du "S" entre parenthèses dans le titre du dossier et sur l'actualité de la question de l'éducation à la citoyenneté. Camille Roelens souligne la multiplication des "citoyennetés à préfixes" (numérique, mondiale, interculturelle, etc.) comme marqueurs des préoccupations sociopolitiques actuelles.
      • 4:15 - 5:35: Camille Roelens répond à la question de l'utilité d'éduquer à la citoyenneté. Il souligne la nécessité de former les citoyens et pose des questions cruciales sur les acteurs, les directions, les degrés d'engagement, et les valeurs à promouvoir.
      • 5:35 - 6:06: Aurélie Zwang, spécialiste de l'éducation à l'environnement, présente sa participation au dossier.
      • 6:06 - 7:31: Aurélie Zwang détaille l'organisation du dossier en trois parties : "Regards obliques", "Questions d'échelles", et "Citoyennetés émergentes", avec des exemples d'articles et de thématiques abordées.

      Interventions des contributeurs (7:31 - 24:19)

      • 7:31 - 17:08: Titouan Lahitte, professeur de philosophie, analyse la formule présidentielle de "réarmement civique" et la notion de "citoyenneté rituelle", les mettant en lien avec le néolibéralisme éducatif.
      • 17:08 - 24:19: Marie Dryll, pédagogue de rue, présente son travail d'éducation à la citoyenneté hors les murs, en s'appuyant sur des exemples concrets d'actions menées avec les enfants dans l'espace public.

      Discussion et échanges avec le chat (24:19 - 58:29)

      • 24:19 - 30:30: Discussion sur la définition de la citoyenneté, son articulation avec le civisme, et l'importance de l'action citoyenne à différentes échelles.
      • 30:30 - 32:08: Marie Dryll explique comment son travail permet de "fabriquer" des enfants et des jeunes qui veulent agir dans la société.
      • 32:08 - 39:48: Echange sur la possibilité d'une éducation à la citoyenneté critique des institutions, les difficultés rencontrées par les enseignants, et l'importance de la posture professorale.
      • 39:48 - 46:38: Aurélie Zwang revient sur la définition de la citoyenneté, l'articulation entre civisme et citoyenneté à travers l'exemple de l'écocitoyenneté, et propose la notion d'écoculture comme alternative.
      • 46:38 - 51:12: Discussion sur la place de l'EMC (Enseignement Moral et Civique) dans le dossier, la pluralité des définitions de l'engagement et de la sensibilité, et la tension entre la vision de la République et la réalité d'une société pluraliste.
      • 51:12 - 58:29: Analyse d'un dessin illustrant la thématique du dossier, avec les commentaires de Marie Dryll, Aurélie Zwang, Titouan Lahitte, Camille Roelens et Ben Aïda. Le dessin met en lumière la tension entre la protection des enfants (objets de droit) et leur capacité d'agir (sujets de droit) dans l'espace public.

      Conclusion (58:29 - 58:48)

      • 58:29 - 58:48: Clôture du webinaire avec des remerciements aux participants et une invitation à s'engager pour une école plus démocratique. Annonce du prochain webinaire sur le thème "Apprendre par le corps".
    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors quantified information in gesture and speech, and investigated the neural processing of speech and gestures in pMTG and LIFG, depending on their informational content, in 8 different time-windows, and using three different methods (EEG, HD-tDCS and TMS). They found that there is a time-sensitive and staged progression of neural engagement that is correlated with the informational content of the signal (speech/gesture).

      Strengths:

      A strength of the paper is that the authors attempted to combine three different methods to investigate speech-gesture processing.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) One major issue is that there is a tight anatomical coupling between pMTG and LIFG. Stimulating one area could therefore also result in stimulation of the other area (see Silvanto and Pascual-Leone, 2008). I therefore think it is very difficult to tease apart the contribution of these areas to the speech-gesture integration process, especially considering that the authors stimulate these regions in time windows that are very close to each other in both time and space (and the disruption might last longer over time).

      (2) Related to this point, it is unclear to me why the HD-TDCS/TMS is delivered in set time windows for each region. How did the authors determine this, and how do the results for TMS compare to their previous work from 2018 and 2023 (which describes a similar dataset+design)? How can they ensure they are only targeting their intended region since they are so anatomically close to each other?

      (3) As the EEG signal is often not normally distributed, I was wondering whether the authors checked the assumptions for their Pearson correlations. The authors could perhaps better choose to model the different variables to see whether MI/entropy could predict the neural responses. How did they correct the many correlational analyses that they have performed?

      (4) The authors use ROIs for their different analyses, but it is unclear why and on the basis of what these regions are defined. Why not consider all channels without making them part of an ROI, by using a method like the one described in my previous comment?

      (5) The authors describe that they have divided their EEG data into a "lower half" and a "higher half" (lines 234-236), based on entropy scores. It is unclear why this is necessary, and I would suggest just using the entropy scores as a continuous measure.

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The drug Ivermectin is used to effectively treat a variety of worm parasites in the world, however resistance to Ivermectin poses a rising challenge for this treatment strategy. In this study, the authors found that loss of the E3 ubiquitin ligase UBR-1 in the worm C. elegans results in resistance to Ivermectin. In particular, the authors found that ubr-1 mutants are resistant to the effects of Ivermectin on worm viability, body size, pharyngeal pumping, and locomotion. The authors previously showed that loss of UBR-1 disrupts homeostasis of the amino acid and neurotransmitter glutamate resulting in increased levels of glutamate in C. elegans. Here, the authors found that the sensitivity of ubr-1 mutants to Ivermectin can be restored if glutamate levels are reduced using a variety of different methods. Conversely, treating worms with exogenous glutamate to increase glutamate levels also results in resistance to Ivermectin supporting the idea that increased glutamate promotes resistance to Ivermectin. The authors found that the primary known targets of Ivermectin, glutamate-gated chloride channels (GluCls), are downregulated in ubr-1 mutants providing a plausible mechanism for why ubr-1 mutants are resistant to Ivermectin. Although it is clear that loss of GluCls can lead to resistance to Ivermectin, this study suggests that one potential mechanism to decrease GluCl expression is via disruption of glutamate homeostasis that leads to increased glutamate. This study suggests that if parasitic worms become resistant to Ivermectin due to increased glutamate, their sensitivity to Ivermectin could be restored by reducing glutamate levels using drugs such as Ceftriaxone in a combination drug treatment strategy.

      Strengths:

      (1) The use of multiple independent assays (i.e., viability, body size, pharyngeal pumping, locomotion, and serotonin-stimulated pharyngeal muscle activity) to monitor the effects of Ivermectin

      (2) The use of multiple independent approaches (got-1, eat-4, ceftriaxone drug, exogenous glutamate treatment) to alter glutamate levels to support the conclusion that increased glutamate in ubr-1 mutants contributes to Ivermectin resistance.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The primary target of Ivermectin is GluCls so it is not surprising that alteration of GluCl expression or function would lead to Ivermectin resistance.

      (2) It remains to be seen what percent of Ivermectin-resistant parasites in the wild have disrupted glutamate homeostasis as opposed to mutations that more directly decrease GluCl expression or function.

    2. Author response:

      We would like to express our sincere gratitude to both of you, and the reviewers, for the time and effort you have invested in reviewing our manuscript. We greatly appreciate the constructive feedback provided and are committed to addressing the suggested revisions.

      In response to the public reviews, we would like to outline the following plan of action:

      (1) Addressing Weaknesses in the Manuscript: We have carefully considered the comments regarding the weaknesses identified in the manuscript. Specifically, we will:

      - Provide further clarification on the mechanism of IVM resistance in our study.

      - Expand our discussion of the limitations and future directions of the research, addressing the concerns related to the potential translation of our findings to parasitic nematodes.

      (2) Additional Experiments: We are currently conducting additional experiments to address the reviewers' suggestions, which include:

      - Testing whether the overexpression of a relevant GluCl, such as AVR-15, can restore Ivermectin sensitivity in ubr-1 mutants.

      - Examining the impact of Ceftriaxone treatment on the Ivermectin resistance in worms lacking key GluCls, such as avr-15, avr-14, and glc-1.

      - Incorporating an analysis of major human parasitic nematodes in the phylogeny and discussing the conservation of relevant mechanisms across species.

      - Double-checking the Dye filling (Dyf) phenotype in ubr-1 mutants, as suggested.

      (3) Point-by-Point response: We will respond to both sets of comments (public reviews and editorial recommendations) in a comprehensive point-by-point manner in the revised manuscript.

      (4) Timely Revisions: We aim to complete all revisions within a single round, ensuring that we address all comments thoroughly while maintaining the integrity of the data.

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      IPF is a disease lacking regressive therapies which has a poor prognosis, and so new therapies are needed. This ambitious phase 1 study builds on the authors' 2024 experience in Sci Tran Med with positive results with autologous transplantation of P63 progenitor cells in patients with COPD. The current study suggests that P63+ progenitor cell therapy is safe in patients with ILD. The authors attribute this to the acquisition of cells from a healthy upper lobe site, removed from the lung fibrosis. There are currently no cell-based therapies for ILD and in this regard the study is novel with important potential for clinical impact if validated in Phase 2 and 3 clinical trials.

      Strengths:

      This study addresses the need for an effective therapy for interstitial lung disease. It offers good evidence that the cells used for therapy are safe. In so doing it addresses a concern that some P63+ progenitor cells may be proinflammatory and harmful, as has been raised in the literature (articles which suggested some P63+ cells can promote honeycombing fibrosis; references 26 &35). The authors attribute the safety they observed (without proof) to the high HOPX expression of administered cells (a marker found in normal Type 1 AECs. The totality of the RNASeq suggests the cloned cells are not fibrogenic. They also offer exploratory data suggesting a relationship between clone roundness and PFT parameters (and a negative association between patient age and clone roundness).

      Weaknesses:

      The authors can conclude they can isolate, clone, expand, and administer P63+ progenitor cells safely; but with the small sample size and lack of a placebo group, no efficacy should be implied.

      Specific points:

      (1) The authors acknowledge most study weaknesses including the lack of a placebo group and the concurrent COVID-19 in half the subjects (the high-dose subjects). They indicate a phase 2 trial is underway to address these issues.

      (2) The authors suggest an efficacy signal on pages 18 (improvement in 2 subjects' CT scans) and 21 (improvement in DLCO) but with such a small phase 1 study and such small increases in DLCO (+5.4%) the authors should refrain from this temptation (understandable as it is).

      (3) Likewise most CT scans were unchanged and those that improved were in the mid-dose group (albeit DLCO improved in the 2 patients whose CT scans improved).

      (4) The authors note an impressive 58m increase in 6MWTD in the high-dose group but again there is no placebo group, and the low-dose group has no net change in 6MWTD at 24 weeks.

      (5) I also raise the question of the enrollment criteria in which 5 patients had essentially normal DLCO/VA values. In addition there is no discussion as to whether the transplanted stem cells are retained or exert benefit by a paracrine mechanism (which is the norm for cell-based therapies).

    2. Author response:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      IPF is a disease lacking regressive therapies which has a poor prognosis, and so new therapies are needed. This ambitious phase 1 study builds on the authors' 2024 experience in Sci Tran Med with positive results with autologous transplantation of P63 progenitor cells in patients with COPD. The current study suggests that P63+ progenitor cell therapy is safe in patients with ILD. The authors attribute this to the acquisition of cells from a healthy upper lobe site, removed from the lung fibrosis. There are currently no cell-based therapies for ILD and in this regard the study is novel with important potential for clinical impact if validated in Phase 2 and 3 clinical trials.

      Strengths:

      This study addresses the need for an effective therapy for interstitial lung disease. It offers good evidence that the cells used for therapy are safe. In so doing it addresses a concern that some P63+ progenitor cells may be proinflammatory and harmful, as has been raised in the literature (articles which suggested some P63+ cells can promote honeycombing fibrosis; references 26 &35). The authors attribute the safety they observed (without proof) to the high HOPX expression of administered cells (a marker found in normal Type 1 AECs. The totality of the RNASeq suggests the cloned cells are not fibrogenic. They also offer exploratory data suggesting a relationship between clone roundness and PFT parameters (and a negative association between patient age and clone roundness).

      We thank the reviewer for the important comments.

      Weaknesses:

      The authors can conclude they can isolate, clone, expand, and administer P63+ progenitor cells safely; but with the small sample size and lack of a placebo group, no efficacy should be implied.

      We thank the reviewer for the suggestion and agree that we should be more cautious to discuss the efficacy of current study.

      Specific points:

      (1) The authors acknowledge most study weaknesses including the lack of a placebo group and the concurrent COVID-19 in half the subjects (the high-dose subjects). They indicate a phase 2 trial is underway to address these issues.

      N/A

      (2) The authors suggest an efficacy signal on pages 18 (improvement in 2 subjects' CT scans) and 21 (improvement in DLCO) but with such a small phase 1 study and such small increases in DLCO (+5.4%) the authors should refrain from this temptation (understandable as it is).

      We believe that exploring potential efficacy signal is also one important aim of this study in addition to safety evaluation. All these efficacy endpoint analyses had been planned in prior to the start of clinical trials (as registered in ClinicalTrial.gov) and the results anyhow need be analyzed and reported in the manuscript. And we will cautiously discuss the significance of the efficacy signal and avoid over-interpretation.

      (3) Likewise most CT scans were unchanged and those that improved were in the mid-dose group (albeit DLCO improved in the 2 patients whose CT scans improved).

      Yes, it is.

      (4) The authors note an impressive 58m increase in 6MWTD in the high-dose group but again there is no placebo group, and the low-dose group has no net change in 6MWTD at 24 weeks.

      Yes.

      (5) I also raise the question of the enrollment criteria in which 5 patients had essentially normal DLCO/VA values. In addition there is no discussion as to whether the transplanted stem cells are retained or exert benefit by a paracrine mechanism (which is the norm for cell-based therapies).

      Thank you for your detailed feedback.  The enrollment criteria are based on DLCO instead of DLCO/VA. And we would like to further discuss the possible benefit by paracrine mechanism in the revised manuscript.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This manuscript describes a first-in-human clinical trial of autologous stem cells to address IPF. The significance of this study is underscored by the limited efficacy of standard-of-care anti-fibrotic therapies and increasing knowledge of the role p63+ stem cells in lung regeneration in ARDS. While models of acute lung injury and p63+ stem cells have benefited from widespread and dynamic DAD and immune cell remodeling of damaged tissue, a key question in chronic lung disease is whether such cells could contribute to the remodeling of lung tissue that may be devoid of acute and dynamic injury. A second question is whether normal regions of the lung in an otherwise diseased organ can be identified as a source of "normal" p63+ stem cells, and how to assess these stem cells given recently identified p63+ stem cell variants emerging in chronic lung diseases including IPF. Lastly, questions of feasibility, safety, and efficacy need to be explored to set the foundation for autologous transplants to meet the huge need in chronic lung disease. The authors have addressed each of these questions to different extents in this initial study, which has yielded important if incomplete information for many of them.

      Strengths:

      As with a previous study from this group regarding autologous stem cell transplants for COPD (Ref. 24), they have shown that the stem cells they propagate do not form colonies in soft agar or cancers in these patients. While a full assessment of adverse events was confounded by a wave of Covid19 infections in the study participants, aside from brief fevers it appears these transplants are tolerated by these patients.

      We thank the reviewer for the important comments.

      Weaknesses:

      The source of stem cells for these autologous transplants is generally bronchoscopic biopsies/brushings from 5th-generation bronchi. Although stem cells have been cloned and characterized from nasal, tracheal, and distal airway biopsies, the systematic cloning and analysis of p63+ stem cells across the bronchial generations is less clear. For instance, p63+ stem cells from the nasal and tracheal mucosa appear committed to upper airway epithelia marked by 90% ciliated cells and 10% goblet cells (Kumar et al., 2011. Ref. 14). In contrast, p63+ stem cells from distal lung differentiate to epithelia replete with Club, AT2, and AT1 markers. The spectrum of p63+ stem cells in the normal bronchi of any generation is less studied. In the present study, cells are obtained by bronchoscopy from 3-5 generation bronchi and expanded by in vitro propagation. Single-cell RNAseq identifies three clusters they refer to as C1, C2, and C3, with the major C1 cluster said to have characteristics of airway basal cells and C2 possibly the same cells in states of proliferation. Perhaps the most immediate question raised by these data is the nature of the C1/C2 cells. Whereas they are clearly p63/Krt5+ cells as are other stem cells of the airways, do they display differentiation character of "upper airway" marked by ciliated/goblet cell differentiation or those of the lung marked by AT2 and AT1 fates? This could be readily determined by 3-D differentiation in so-called air-liquid interface cultures pioneered by cystic fibrosis investigators and should be done as it would directly address the validity of the sourcing protocol for autologous cells for these transplants. This would more clearly link the present study with a previous study from the same investigators (Shi et al., 2019, Ref. 9) whereby distal airway stem cells mitigated fibrosis in the murine bleomycin model. The authors should also provide methods by which the autologous cells are propagated in vitro as these could impact the quality and fate of the progenitor cells prior to transplantation.

      We totally agree that the sub-population of the progenitor cells should be further analyzed. We would try this in the revised manuscript. And the methods to expand P63+ lung progenitor cells have been described in full details by Frank McKeon/Wa Xian group (Rao, et.al., STAR Protocols, 2020), which is adapted to pharmaceutical-grade technology patented by Regend Therapeutics, Ltd.

      The authors should also make a more concerted effort to compare Clusters 1, 2, and 3 with the variant stem cell identified in IPF (Wang et al., 2023, Ref. 27). While some of the markers are consistent with this variant stem cell population, others are not. A more detailed informatics analysis of normal stem cells of the airways and any variants reported could clarify whether the bronchial source of autologous stem cells is the best route to these transplants. 

      We thank for reviewer for the good suggestion and would like to make more detailed comparison in the revised manuscript.

      Other than these issues the authors should be commended for these first-in-human trials for this important condition.

      Thank you so much for the kind compliment.

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this study, Hilda Tateossian et al. sought to identify the specific gene linked to hearing loss caused by otitis media effusion (OME) in individuals with Down syndrome (DS). They approached this by analyzing a series of mouse models of DS (referred to as the DpTyb lines), which include various duplications that encompass the regions of the mouse genome analogous to the human chromosome 21 (Hsa21). This allowed them to pinpoint genetic loci that may be associated with OME in DS. To control for external variables, such as genetic background and environmental influences, which could affect the development of chronic OME, all DpTyb mouse lines were maintained on a uniform C57BL/6J genetic background. The authors could show that chronic OME phenotypes were consistently reproducible across two research centers, the Francis Crick Institute and MRC Harwell Institute, supporting their conclusion while also reducing the likelihood that environmental factors could affect results.

      The authors then focused on a significant locus on chromosome 16 in the Dp5Tyb mouse model that was strongly associated with OME. This locus contains only 12 genes, and it overlapped with the duplicated genomic regions in three additional mouse models (Dp1Tyb, Dp3Tyb, and Ts1Rhr), strengthening the link between this locus and OME. To identify the gene responsible within this critical interval, they conducted targeted crosses of Dp mouse lines (Dp1Tyb, Dp3Tyb, and Dp5Tyb) with gene knockout models. This strategy enabled them to normalize the copy number of specific genes within the progeny and assess the effect on OME. They found that reducing the gene dosage of Dyrk1a specifically restored a wild-type phenotype, implicating Dyrk1a as a key player in the development of OME in DS.

      Given the broad biological roles of DYRK1A in various cellular pathways, the researchers also explored its effects on downstream proteins and pathways within the middle ear epithelium using immunohistochemistry and RT-qPCR. They uncovered several pathological mechanisms by which DYRK1A triplication could promote middle ear inflammation and increased vascular permeability. These mechanisms included the interaction between DYRK1A and TGFβ signaling, which affects proinflammatory cytokines IL-6 and IL-17, as well as elevated levels of VEGF in the middle ear that were accompanied by increased Hif1a expression.

      At the morphological level, analyses by scanning electron microscopy further revealed a loss of cilia on the epithelial cells in the middle ears of 2-month-old Dp3Tyb and Dp5Tyb mutant mice, which likely contributes to the development of OME in DS.

      Finally, to validate the relevance of their findings in humans, the researchers examined the expression of the 12 genes within the Dp5Tyb locus in samples from children with DS compared to unaffected parental controls, using qPCR. They found that among the 12 genes, DYRK1A showed the most significant fold increase in expression, further supporting its potential role in OME associated with DS.

      Strengths:

      (1) The manuscript is well-written and clearly presents both experimental design and results, together supporting the main conclusions.

      (2) The experiments are carefully designed and executed, with data that convincingly support the identification of DYRK1A as a key gene involved in OME in DS. The use of gene knockouts to normalize Dyrk1a gene dosage within the Dp mouse lines was a thorough and successful strategy to strengthen and validate DYRK1A's causal inference in OME.

      (3) The study goes beyond simple gene identification by exploring the downstream pathways and cellular effects of DYRK1A triplication. This mechanistic focus provides actionable insights into the potential molecular underpinnings of OME in DS.

      (4) The study addresses a clinically important issue - OME in children with DS - and proposes DYRK1A as a practical therapeutic target. Based on data in mice and the high dose of DYRK1A in human clinical samples, the authors suggest that suppressing the activity of this gene by localized delivery of inhibitors to the middle ear cavity in DS patients can be a potential strategy for future treatment of OME.

      Weaknesses:

      No major weakness is identified.

      The authors could discuss further the potential involvement of the other genes within the Dp5Tyb interval, and whether interactions among these genes could impact the disease or whether additional contributions to OME might be overlooked. Beyond DYRK1A expression, discussion of a more extensive analysis of the other genes within the locus in larger cohorts of individuals with DS and OME could add strength to the translational relevance of the findings.

    2. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors used mouse models with nested duplications of genomic regions syntenic to human chromosome 21 to identify specific loci responsible for otitis media with effusion (OME) in people with Down syndrome. They identified two loci: one highly penetrant major locus containing the candidate gene Dyrk1a and one minor locus resulting in low penetrant OME. By normalizing the gene dosage of Dyrk1a, the authors showed it mitigated OME. Further investigation of the molecular mechanisms by which DYRK1A exerts its effect, unveiled interactions with TGFβ signaling, elevated proinflammatory cytokines (IL-6 and IL-17), and increased VEGF levels coupled with increased Hif1a activity in the middle ear.

      Strengths:

      (1) The manuscript is well-written and includes appropriate figures. I especially liked Figure 4, which provides an excellent graphical abstract for the genetic study.

      (2) Using a panel of mouse models with nested duplications is an elegant, systematic approach to narrowing down the genetic loci linked to OME. This is a robust method for dissecting complex traits like those observed in Down syndrome.

      (3) Identifying DYRK1A as a major genetic contributor to highly penetrant OME in DS could be extrapolated to individuals with isolated (nonsyndromic) OME, thus paving the way for broader exploration of its role in general OME susceptibility. This discovery also opens the door to developing genetic testing for individuals with recurrent or chronic OME, helping with diagnosis and personalized management.

      (4) Identifying DYRK1A as a potential therapeutic target highlights the study's translational relevance and potential impact on treating OME in children with DS.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) While the mouse model findings are robust, the study lacks validation in humans. Collaborating with researchers studying OM in human cohorts to screen for DYRK1A variants and correlate these to human phenotypes could have significantly strengthened the study's translational relevance.

      (2) More compelling evidence could have been provided by generating a DYRK1A overexpression knock-in mouse model in the ROSA26 locus. This approach would allow for the functional evaluation of the impact of the overexpression of this single gene. The authors could make the KI model inducible allowing for a more localized study of the gene in a subset of cells.

      (3) The lack of histological findings in the cochlea does not rule out sensorineural hearing loss. The authors did not provide compelling evidence ruling out a sensorineural component. Given DYRK1A expression in various cochlear cell types (according to the gEAR resource), it is plausible that overexpression could cause dysfunction there too. Additional analysis of ABR waves, including amplitude and latency measurements, would help clarify whether the defect is exclusively middle ear-related.

      (4) Although Dyrk1a is implicated as a critical gene, the study does not fully explore the potential contributions of the other 11 genes in the identified locus. These genes might also play roles in OME, whether independently or synergically.

      (5) While TGFβ signaling and cytokine production are investigated, the study does not explore the full and broader pathway and network interactions. Using transcriptomics in these mice models could provide a deeper and more comprehensive understanding of the molecular mechanisms involved.

      (6) The difference in wild-type phenotype restoration between double mutants: Dp3Tyb has the best rescue with no significant difference with wild type, versus Dp5Tyb failing to restore the wild-type phenotype needs further investigation. Understanding the factors accounting for these differences could identify additional modifiers within this locus.

      (7) The authors stated, "We detected a one-third increase, as expected, of the number of cells positive for DYRK1A in Dp3Tyb mice (56.6%) compared to wild-type littermates (36.4%)". This measurement refers to the number of cells expressing DYRK1A rather than the actual level of DYRK1A protein expression within these cells. The number of expressing cells does not directly correlate with gene dosage, as it is likely the level of DYRK1A protein within individual cells that has a more significant impact on the phenotype. The authors should quantify the protein levels using Western blot, for example, to strengthen their findings. If the authors believe it is the number of expressing cells that is relevant, then they should provide a clear rationale for how this measure reflects gene dosage effects and its biological significance in this context.

    1. In the first volume of his autobiography, Philosopher atLarge, Adler reminisced:During the late forties and early fifties, I was frequently asked by oneinstitution or another to meet with a curriculum committee whichhad been set up to reform the collegiate course of study. On suchoccasions, I laid out a set of negative conditions which I regarded asprerequisite to any reform aimed in the right direction ... The condi-tions were as follows: (1) there should be no vocational training ofany sort; (2) there should be no electives, no majors or minors, nospecialization in subject matter; (3) there should be no division ofthe faculty into professors competent in one department of learn-ing rather than another; (4) no member of the faculty should beunprepared to teach the course of study as a whole; (5) no textbooksor manuals should be assigned as reading material for the students;(6) not more than one lecture a week should be given to the studentbody; (7) there should be no written examination.33
    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Gap of knowledge:

      From the introduction, I got the impression that the manuscript tries to answer the question of whether homeostatic structural plasticity is functionally redundant to synaptic scaling. However, the importance of this question needs to be worked out better. Also, I think it is hard to tackle this question with the shown experiments as one would have to block all other redundant mechanisms and see whether HSP functionally replaces them.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s valuable feedback regarding the relationship between homeostatic structural plasticity (HSP) and synaptic scaling. The main objective of our study is indeed to investigate whether structural plasticity is homeostatically regulated, and if so, whether it acts as a redundant or heterogeneous mechanism in relation to synaptic scaling, which is widely recognized as a primary homeostatic process.

      In our revised introduction, we have clarified this central question and its significance. Specifically, we explored why experimentally observed changes in spine density, a measure of structural plasticity, do not exhibit the same homeostatic characteristics as changes in spine head size, which reflects synaptic scaling, particularly under conditions of activity blockade.

      We hypothesized two key points:

      (1) Structural plasticity may not follow a monotonically activity-dependent rule as strictly as synaptic scaling.

      (2) The observed changes in spine density may be influenced by the simultaneous modulation of spine size, suggesting that structural plasticity and synaptic scaling interact within the same biological system.

      Both hypotheses were tested through a combination of experimental observations and systematic computer simulations. Our conclusions demonstrate that spine-number-based structural plasticity follows a biphasic activity-dependent rule. While it largely overlaps with synaptic scaling under typical conditions, it exhibits heterogeneity under extreme conditions, such as activity silencing. Furthermore, our simulations revealed that both mechanisms can compete and complement each other within neural networks.

      We believe that these results offer a nuanced understanding of the interaction between structural plasticity and synaptic scaling, highlighting their redundancy under most conditions but also their heterogeneity under specific circumstances. Blocking all other redundant mechanisms, as suggested, would provide a more reductionist view, which may not capture the complexity and interplay of these processes in a physiological setting. Our approach reflects this complexity, providing insight into how these mechanisms operate together in a naturalistic context.

      We have revised the introduction to better convey these points and emphasize the significance of this question for understanding the dynamics of homeostatic regulation in neural networks.

      Similarly, the simulations do not really tackle redundancy as, e.g. network growth cannot be achieved by scaling alone.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s comment regarding synaptic scaling's limitations in achieving network growth. We would like to clarify that we did not intend to suggest that structural plasticity and synaptic scaling are fully redundant. In fact, it is well established in the literature that structural plasticity plays a dominant role during development, particularly in network growth, which synaptic scaling alone cannot achieve.

      The primary objective of our study was to investigate the interaction between structural plasticity and synaptic scaling under conditions of activity perturbation, rather than during network growth or development. To avoid any confusion regarding developmental processes, we chose to grow the network using only structural plasticity in our simulations. Synaptic scaling was then introduced (or not) during the phase of activity deprivation to specifically examine its role in regulating homeostasis under these conditions.

      We have revised the corresponding sections of the manuscript to clarify this distinction, and we have ensured that the simulations reflect our focus on activity perturbation rather than network development. This distinction should help readers avoid conflating developmental processes with the specific goals of our study.

      Instead, the section on "Integral feedback mechanisms" (L112-129) contains a much better description of the actual goals of the paper than is given in the introduction. Moreover, this section does not seem to include any new results (at least the Ca-dependent structural plasticity and synaptic scaling rules seem to be very common for me). I, therefore, suggest fusing this paragraph in the introduction to obtain a clearer and better understandable gap of knowledge, which is addressed by the paper.

      We agree that the "Integral feedback control" section provides key information relevant to both the Introduction and Methodology. It outlines the theoretical framework and serves as a basis for the experimental design.

      To better reflect this, we have revised the Introduction to include the gap in knowledge. However, we opted to retain the section in the Results, slightly modified, to set the context for the first experiment.

      Along this line, as it seems a central point of the manuscript to distinguish the controller dependencies on Calcium, the different dependencies (working models) should be described in more detail. Also, the description of the inconsistencies of the previous results on HSP can be moved from the discussion (l419-l441) to the introduction.

      We have revised the manuscript to place less emphasis on the controller models while retaining the core principles of control theory. The description of the HSP model has been moved to the Introduction, as suggested, while the detailed history remains in the Discussion to maintain the manuscript's consistency.

      Systematic text revision: Regarding comment (1), we thank the reviewer for suggesting the text reorganization. We have adjusted several parts in the introduction, M&M section, and results section to increase clarity.

      (2) Pharmacological Choice:

      It should be discussed why NBQX is used to induce the homeostatic effect instead of TTX. As there are studies showing that it might block homeostatic rewiring (doi.org/10.1073/pnas.0501881102) as well as synaptic scaling (10.1523/JNEUROSCI.3753-08.2009), it seems unclear whether the observed effects are actually corresponding to those in other publications.

      The rationale for using NBQX in our experiments, rather than TTX, is detailed in the public response. We selected NBQX based on specific experimental motivations relevant to our study’s objectives, while acknowledging the potential differences in effects compared to other studies.

      Local text revision: We added one paragraph in the discussion section to explain the idea better.

      (3) Model-Experiment Connection:

      The paper combines simulations with experimental work, which is very good. However, in my opinion, the only connection between the two parts is that the experiments suggest a non-monotonic dependency between firing rate and synapse density (i.e. the biphasic dependency). The rest of the experimental results seem to be neglected in the modeling part. It is not even shown that the model reproduces the experiments. Instead, the model is tested in different situations and paradigms (blocking AMPARs in the whole culture vs network growth or silencing a sub-population). I think it would make the paper stronger and more consequential when a reproduction of the experiment by the model is demonstrated (with analogue analyses).

      The experimental results serve three main purposes. First, as the reviewer noted, the spine analysis was conducted to inform the biphasic rule. Second, spine size analysis was performed to replicate published findings and confirm our modeling results, showing that activity deprivation leads to fewer synapses with larger sizes or higher weights. Third, the correlation analysis of spine density and size across dendritic segments suggested a hybrid combination of two types of plasticity across different neurons.

      While we addressed these aspects in the Results and Discussion sections, the collective presentation in Fig. 2 may have caused some confusion. To improve clarity, we have now split the experimental results, presenting them alongside the relevant modeling data in Fig. 2, Fig. 8, and Fig. 9.

      Also, there are a few more mismatches between the experiment and the model that you will want to discuss:

      • The size-dependent homeostatic effect (l154ff, Fig2F) is not reflected by the used scaling model.

      We revised Fig 8 and the corresponding text to explain how the scaling model reflects such an effect.

      • The model assumes reduced Ca levels. Yet, the experimental protocol blocks AMPARs, which are to my knowledge not the primary source of Ca influx, but rather the NMDARs.

      The model is based on neural activity, with calcium concentration serving as an internal integral signal of the firing rate, allowing for integral control. While calcium plays a critical role in homeostasis, we caution against drawing a strict correspondence between the model's calcium dynamics and the experimental protocol, as calcium can be sourced from multiple pathways in neurons beyond AMPARs, such as NMDARs, voltage gated calcium channels, and intracellular stores. Also, our recent work demonstrated that under baseline conditions, the majority of AMPARs are not Ca2+ permeable, i.e., GluA2-lacking (Kleidonas et al., 2023)

      Improving the calcium dynamics, including secondary calcium release and calcium stores, is part of our future plan to refine the HSP model and address experimental findings that are not fully explained by the current model.

      • The model further assumes silencing by input removal, whereas the recurrent connections stay intact. Wouldn't this rather correspond to a deafferentation experiment, where connections to another brain area are cut?

      Thank you for pointing at this. The modeling section was not intended to directly replicate the tissue culture experiments but rather to provide insights into a broader range of scenarios, including pharmacological treatments, deafferentation, lesions, and even monocular deprivation.

      Systematic text revision: Regarding comment (3), the goal of our modeling work was more than reproducing. To better serve the purposes of experimental results used in the present study, to inform, confirm, and inspire, we have systematically adjusted the layout of experimental and modeling results to link them better.

      (4) Is the recurrent component too weak?

      Your results show that HSP does not restore activity after silencing (deafferentation), whereas you discuss that earlier models did achieve this by active neighbors in a spatially organized network. However, the silenced neurons in your simulations also receive inputs through the "recurrent" connections from their neighbors (at least shortly after silencing). Therefore, given the recurrent input is strong enough, they should be able to recover in a similar way as the spatially organized ones. As a consequence, I obtained the impression that, in your model networks, activity is strongly driven by external stimulation and less by recurrent connections. I understand that this is important to achieve silencing through removing the Poisson stimulation. Yet, this fact may be responsible for the failure to restore activity such that presented effects are only applicable for networks that are strongly driven by external inputs, but not for strongly recurrent networks, which would severely limit the generality of the results. As a consequence, the paper would benefit from a systematic analysis of the trade-off between recurrent strength and input strength. Maybe, different constant negative currents could be injected in all neurons, such that HSP creates more recurrent synapses in the network.

      We appreciate this insight. However, increasing recurrent input strength is beyond the scope of the current study, as it would fundamentally alter the predefined network dynamics of the Brunel network used. As noted in the manuscript, complete isolation or cell death is not always the outcome after input deprivation, lesion, or stroke, which cannot be fully explained by the Gaussian HSP rule alone. Butz and colleagues offered a solution using growth rules that maximized recurrent input, and we recognize the importance of their work.

      That said, we approached the issue from a different angle, emphasizing the role of synaptic scaling in recurrence rather than relying solely on recurrent input strength. In biological networks, external inputs may vary, recurrency can be weak or strong, and synaptic scaling can dominate. Our model offers a complementary hypothesis, suggesting that these factors, in combination, contribute to the diverse and sometimes contradictory results found in the literature, rather than posing a strict constraint on network topology.

      Local text revision: We emphasized these points in the Discussion section again.

      (5) Missing conclusions / experimental predictions

      As already described, the modelling work is not reproducing the presented or previous experimental data. Hence, the goal of modelling should be to derive a more general understanding and make experimental predictions. Yet, the conclusions in the discussion stay superficial and vague and there are no specific experimental predictions derived from the model results.

      For example, the authors report that the recovery of activity in silenced cultures is observed in a previously spatially structured model but not in theirs -- at least with slow or no scaling. Yet it is left to the reader to think about whether the current model is an improvement to the previous one, how they could be experimentally distinguished, or to which experimental findings they relate or compare, which I would expect at this point. I would advise reworking the discussion and thoroughly working out which new insights the modelling part of the study has generated (not to be confused with the assumptions of the model aka the biphasic plasticity rule) and relating them to experimental pre- and postdiction.

      We recognize the reviewer’s concern, which is closely related to comment (4). We have addressed these points by reorganizing the text to better clarify the purpose of our experimental work and its connection to the modeling results.

      Specifically, we have reworked the discussion to highlight the new insights gained from the modeling, and how these can inform experimental predictions and interpretations. This includes distinguishing our model from previous ones and providing clearer connections to experimental findings.

      Systematic text revision: Most of the comments on combining experiments and modeling results and on developing the story based on our expectations raised here are sincere and may also reflect the expectations and concerns of a broader readership, so we have accordingly adjusted the text in the Results and Discussion sections to make our points clear.

      Suggestions for minor changes:

      Fig 1I: Please check the graph and make it more self-explaining. For example, mark the "setpoint" activity (in my opinion, both curves should be at baseline there. In that case, however, I do not see the biphasic behavior anymore). Maybe the table and the graph can be aligned along the activity axis? Also: synaptic inhibition should be increased and not decreased, right?

      Local text and figure revision: I guess the reviewer meant for Fig. 2I? We have improved the visualization to avoid confusion.

      L74-81: I would reverse the order of associative and homeostatic plasticity in this paragraph.

      Local text and figure revision: We have fine-tuned the order in the first and second paragraphs to match the readers' expectations.

      L74-75: Provide references for such theories.

      Local text and figure revision: fixed.

      L84-86: Please provide a reference for the claim that negative feedback, redundancy, and heterogeneity contribute to robustness.

      Local text and figure revision: fixed.

      L 95-97: I think the heterogeneity aspect needs to be worked out a bit better. Do you mean that the described mechanisms contribute to firing rate homeostasis in a different mixture for each neuron (as shown assumed in the last figure)?

      Local text and figure revision: The term heterogeneity is used in the manuscript for two major different settings: (1) heterogeneity in terms of control theory and (2) different combinations of HSP and SS rules. We have named the second condition as diversity to avoid confusion.

      L 132: The question of linearity has not been posed so far. Also, I think "monotonous" would be a much better term than linear (as a test for linearity would require more than 2 datapoints).

      Local text and figure revision: We agreed linear is not a good term. We replaced it with ‘monotonic’ throughout the manuscript.

      Fig2 Bii: The data for 50um is clearly not Gaussian.

      We did not imply that the 50 µM condition is Gaussian. Instead, we noted that the non-linearity observed in both the 200 nM and 50 µM data suggests a non-monotonic growth rule rather than a linear one. We applied the Gaussian rule because it has been extensively studied in previous simulations, allowing us to benchmark our findings against those results.

      Fig2 D, E inset: The point at time 0 does not convey any information and could be left out.

      The time zero data is included to demonstrate that the three groups have a similar baseline, ensuring that any observed differences are due to the treatment and not pre-existing biases in the grouping.

      L 178: As the Gaussian rule drops below zero above the upper set-point again, it is rather tri-phasic than bi-phasic.

      We intended to convey that inhibition results in either spine growth or deletion, reflecting a bi-phasic response rather than a true tri-phasic one.

      Fig 6A: You may want to mark the eta variables in the curves.

      Local text and figure revision: fixed.

      Fig 6E: The curve of the S population extending to the next panel looks a bit messy.

      We retained the curve extension to visually convey the impression of excessive network activity.

      L272: It needs to be better described/motivated how protocol 1 and 2 are supposed to study the role of recurrent connection as well as what kind of biological situation this may be.

      Local text and figure revision: The corresponding text has been adjusted to avoid confusion.

      L 272: It is not clear how faster simulation leads to less recurrent connectivity, when the stimulation protocol and the rates stay the same and the algorithm compensates for the timestep properly. Maybe you rather want to say that you silence 10x longer and stimulate 10x longer?

      Local text revision: The corresponding text has been adjusted to avoid confusion.

      L. 302: "reactivate"?

      Local text revision: fixed.

      L 322f: I would suggest showing the connectivity matrix for a time-point with restored activity as well.

      Local text and figure revision: fixed.

      Fig 8A: The use of the morphological reconstructions is a bit misleading as the model uses point neuron.

      Local text revision: Now after reorganization, it is in Fig.9. We kept the reconstruction figure for motivational purposes, suggesting how to understand the meaning of the combinations in more biologically realistic scenarios. The corresponding text has been adjusted to avoid confusion.

      Fig 8E-F: the y axis should be in the same orientation as in panel D.

      Local text and figure revision: Good idea and fixed in the new Fig. 9.

      Fig. 8F: The results here look a little bit random. Maybe more runs with the same parameters would smooth out the contours or reveal a phase transition.

      Local text and figure revision: Thank you for the suggestion. We conducted an additional ten random trials to average the traces and heatmaps, improving the clarity of the results now presented in Fig. 9.

      L411: Note that there are earlier HSP models by Damasch and van Ooyen & van Pelt, that might be worth discussing here.

      Local text revision: fixed.

      L416 "beyond synaptic scaling" reference needed.

      Local text revision: fixed.

      L419: The biphasic rule was suggested by Butz already.

      Local text revision: We adjusted the text to emphasize our contribution in suggesting/confirming the biphasic rule based on direct experimental observations.

      L 419-44: Most of this is actually state-of-the art and may be better placed in the introduction to justify the use of NBQX as a competititve blocker.

      Local text revision: We adjusted the text in the introduction and Discussion sections to cover the raised points.

      L487: In my opinion, although scaling adapts the weights quickly, the information about deviating firing rate is still stored in the calcium signal such that it will also give rise to structural changes (although they may be small when the rate is low). Thus, I think that fast scaling does not abolish structural changes.

      Local text revision: We adjusted the text to account for other factors that could lead to the same or opposite conclusions.

      L502f: Sentence unclear. Do you mean Ca is an integrated (low-pass filtered) version of the firing rate?

      Yes.

      L504: What is the cumulative temporal effect of error in estimating firing rates?

      We were referring to the potential instability in numeric simulations if the firing rate is not tracked by an integral signal (calcium concentration) but is instead estimated through average spike counts over time. In our model, calcium serves as a proxy for the firing rate to guide homeostatic structural plasticity. The intake and decay constants are set to minimize the accumulation of errors over time, making long-term error accumulation unlikely. In any case, this is not intended to be a precise measure of the firing rate but rather a smooth guide for homeostatic control.

      Local text revision: We rewrote the section so as not to cause extra concerns.

      L505: Which two rules are meant here? Ca- and firing rate based or HSP and scaling?

      Local text revision: The two rules are the HSP rule and the HSS rule. We have adjusted the text to improve clarity.

      L505ff: I did not really understand the control theoretic view here and Supp Fig 5 is not self-explaining enough to help. In my view, scaling is a proportional controller for the calcium level (the setpoint is defined for calcium and not firing rate). Also, all of the HSP rules do neither contain an integral nor a differential of the error and are thus nonlinear but proportional controllers in first approximation. If this part is supposed to stay in the manuscript, the supporting information should contain a more detailed mathematical explanation. Relevant previous work on homeostatic control by synaptic scaling and homeostatic rewiring, e.g. doi: 10.23919/ECC54610.2021.9655157 should be discussed

      Local text revision: We have updated the last paragraph to increase clarity. The HSP and HSS rules are proportional and integral for neural activity, as neural firing rate homeostasis is the meaningful goal. However, it is also correct that the integral component is gone if we view calcium concentration as the goal or setpoint. This paper is discussed and cited in a paragraph above this one.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      I have some additional suggestions and questions for the authors, which I am presenting following the order of the figures.

      Fig 1A: I'm a little bit puzzled by the timescales between Hebbian and homeostatic plasticity; a wealth of data suggests that Hebbian plasticity acts on a faster timescale than homeostatic plasticity, while Aii-Aiii implies the opposite. In lesion-induced degeneration, for instance, which is mentioned later by the authors, spine loss has been suggested to be Hebbian (LTD) while the subsequent recovery is homeostatic. Additionally, it will not be clear to the reader if the same stimulus could induce Hebbian and homeostatic plasticity, or why; the rest of the manuscript seems to imply that any stimulus could and would trigger homeostatic plasticity, which is not the case. Finally, there should be a mention somewhere that Hebbian structural plasticity also exists.

      Local text and figure revision: We thank the reviewer for pointing out the time scale issue, which was not explicitly considered here and is now updated.

      Fig. 2Bii: There is no significant difference at 200nm NBQX for sEPSC amplitude, contrary to what is stated in the text (line 136). Which one is it?

      Local text revision: We thank the reviewer for pointing out the mistake. We have inspected the original statistical file and corrected the text.

      Fig. 2F: The description of Fig. 2F in the text confused me for the longest time. I am still unsure why 200nm NBQX is described as leading to a general size increase when it follows the control line so closely, crosses 0 at the same point, and is even below the control line for the largest spine sizes. Similarly, 50um NBQX neatly overlaps with the control condition except for the smallest and largest spines, so the "shrinkage of middle-sized spines" doesn't seem different from the control condition. I also couldn't find any data supporting the statement that 50um NBQX increased only the size of "a small subset of large spines". Maybe the authors could clarify this section? I would also suggest adding statistics between the treatments at each spine size bin to support the claims, as they are central to the rest of the paper.

      Importantly, there is no description of the normalization nor the quantification of the difference between days in the methods; I am assuming post-pre for the difference and (post-pre)/pre for the normalization, but this should be much more detailed in the methodology. I was happy to see the baseline raw spine sizes in Supplementary Fig. 1, and would also suggest adding the raw spine sizes after treatment for comparison.

      Local text and figure revision: We have adjusted the text and figure to improve clarity.

      Fig. 2G/S2A: a scale for the label sizes would be helpful. I would also like to have the same correlation for 50um NBQX treatment and the control condition (at least in the supplementary figures).

      Local text and figure revision: We have adjusted the text and figure to improve clarity.

      Fig. 2I: I might be missing something, but why is the activity line flat when there are changes in spine density and size?

      Local text and figure revision: We have adjusted the text and figure to improve clarity.

      Fig. 3C-D: they are referenced in the text as Fig. 1C-D (lines 188-194).

      Local text revision: fixed.

      Fig. 5: it is interesting that the biphasic model captures both spine loss and recovery, fitting well with lesion-induced degeneration and recovery. Does this mean that the model captures other types of plasticity, or does it suggest to the authors that both steps are homeostatic?

      Indeed, the biphasic HSP rule captures two types of activity dependence. The pioneering work by Gallinaro and Rotter (2018) also demonstrated that the HSP rule, even in its monotonic/linear form, exhibits associative properties, which are typically associated with Hebbian plasticity.

      Fig. 6A: This figure requires a more detailed legend - what are the various insets? Does the top right graph only have one curve because they are overlapping and the growth rules are the same for axons and dendrites?

      Local text revision: fixed.

      Fig. 6E: There is usually an overshoot when a stimulus is removed, in this case at the end of the silencing period (as shown in Fig. 1Aiii). Is there a reason why this is not recapitulated here? It shouldn't be as extreme as in the right panel so there should be no degeneration.

      We agree that removing the stimulus would typically trigger an opposite homeostatic process. However, in this protocol, we aimed to emphasize the role of recurrency by presenting extreme cases to illustrate potential scenarios for the readers.

      Local text revision: We revised this paragraph to walk the readers through the rationale better.

      Fig. 6: the authors mention distance-dependent connectivity (line 268), but I couldn't find any data related to that statement. I was particularly curious about that aspect, so I would like to know what this statement is based on, especially as they touch again on the role of morphology in Fig. 8, and distance-dependent connectivity is more prominent in the discussion. On a similar note, would the authors have data from other layers of CA1 that would show similar or other rules? Please note that I am not asking to include these data in the present paper - I am just curious if these data exist (or if the experiments are considered).

      Such an extensive dataset is included and thoroughly investigated in another study that has just been published in Lenz et al., 2023. We updated the reference in the revised text.

      Fig. 7E top: the scalebar is missing.

      Local text revision: fixed.

      Fig. 8A: do the colors have meaning? If yes, please state them. Also indicate that the left two neurons are pyramidal cells from CA1 and the right neurons are granule cells from the dentate gyrus.

      Local text revision: fixed.

      Line 302: "reactive" should be "reactivate".

      Local text revision: fixed.

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this work, the authors investigate the functional difference between the most commonly expressed form of PTH, and a novel point mutation in PTH identified in a patient with chronic hypocalcemia and hyperphosphatemia. The value of this mutant form of PTH as a potential anabolic agent for bone is investigated alongside PTH(1-84), which is a current anabolic therapy. The authors have achieved the aims of the study. Their conclusion that this suggests a "new path of therapeutic PTH analog development" seems unfounded; the benefit of this PTH variant is not clear, but the work is still interesting.

      The work does not identify why the patient with this mutation has hypocalcemia and hyperphosphatemia; this was not the goal of the study, but the data is useful for helping to understand it.

      Strengths:

      The work is novel, as it describes the function of a novel, naturally occurring, variant of PTH in terms of its ability to dimerise, to lead to cAMP activation, to increase serum calcium, and its pharmacological action compared to normal PTH.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The use of very young, 10 week old, mice as a model of postmenopausal osteoporosis remains a limitation of this study, but this is now quite clearly described as a limitation,, including justifying the use of the primary spongiosa as a measurement site.

      (2) Methods have been clarified. It is still necessary to properly define the micro-CT threshold in mm HA/cc^3. I think it might be at about 200mg HA/cc^3 in this study.

      (3) The apparent contradiction between the cortical thickness data (where there is no difference between the two PTH formulations) and the mechanical testing data (where there is a difference) remains unresolved. It is still not clear whether there is a material defect in the bone, which can be partially assessed by reporting the 3 point bending test, corrected for the diameters of the bone (i.e. as stress / strain curves).

      (4) It is also puzzling that both dimeric and monomeric PTH lead to a reduction in total bone area (cross sectional area?). This would suggest a reduction in bone growth. This should be discussed in the work.

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    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Aging reduces tissue regeneration capacity, posing challenges for an aging population. In this study, the authors investigate impaired bone healing in aging, focusing on calvarial bones, and introduce a two-part rejuvenation strategy. Aging depletes osteoprogenitor cells and reduces their function, which hinders bone repair. Simply increasing the number of these cells does not restore their regenerative capacity in aged mice, highlighting intrinsic cellular deficits. The authors' strategy combines Wnt-mediated osteoprogenitor expansion with intermittent fasting, which remarkably restores bone healing. Intermittent fasting enhances osteoprogenitor function by targeting NAD+ pathways and gut microbiota, addressing mitochondrial dysfunction - an essential factor in aging. This approach shows promise for rejuvenating tissue repair, not only in bones but potentially across other tissues.

      Strengths:

      This study is exciting, impressive, and novel. The data presented is robust and supports the findings well.

      Weaknesses:

      As mentioned above the data is robust and supports the findings well. I have minor comments only.

      We thank the reviewer for their enthusiastic and positive assessment of our study. We appreciate the recognition of the novelty and robustness of our data and findings. We have carefully considered the reviewer's comments and have revised the manuscript accordingly. We believe these revisions further strengthen the clarity and impact of our work.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Reeves et al explore a model of bone healing in the context of aging. They show that intermittent fasting can improve bone healing, even in aged animals. Their study combines a 'bone bandage' which delivers a canonical Wnt signal with intermittent fasting and shows impacts on the CD90 progenitor cell population and the healing of a critical-sized defect in the calvarium. They also explore potential regulators of this process and identify mitochondrial dysfunction in the age-related decline of stem cells. In this context, by modulating NAD+ pathways or the gut microbiota, they can also enhance healing, hinting at an effect mediated by complex impacts on multiple pathways associated with cellular metabolism.

      Strengths:

      The study shows a remarkable finding: that age-related decreases in bone healing can be restored by intermittent fasting. There is ample evidence that intermittent fasting can delay aging, but here the authors provide evidence that in an already-aged animal, intermittent fasting can restore healing to levels seen in younger animals. This is an important finding as it may hint at the potential benefits of intermittent fasting in tissue repair.

      Weaknesses:

      The authors explore potential mechanisms by which the intermittent fasting protocol might impact bone healing. However, they do not identify a magic bullet here that controls this effect. Indeed, the fact that their results with intermittent fasting can be replicated by changing the gut microbiota or modulating fundamental pathways associated with NAD, suggests that there is no single mechanism that drives this effect, but rather an overall complex impact on metabolic processes, which may be very difficult to untangle.

      We thank the reviewer for their positive assessment of our study and for highlighting the significant finding that intermittent fasting can restore age-related declines in bone healing. We appreciate the observation that our results suggest a complex interplay of metabolic processes rather than a single "magic bullet" mechanism. Indeed, the ability of gut microbiota modulation or NAD+ pathway targeting to replicate intermittent fasting's benefits underscores this complexity. While we recognize the challenges of disentangling these interconnected pathways, we believe our findings offer valuable insights into the multifaceted nature of intermittent fasting's impact on aged tissue repair. We hope this study serves as a foundation for future research aimed at identifying the individual contributions of these pathways and developing targeted therapeutic strategies.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study aims to address the significant challenge of age-related decline in bone healing by developing a dual therapeutic strategy that rejuvenates osteogenic function in aged calvarial bone tissue. Specifically, the authors investigate the efficacy of combining local Wnt3a-mediated osteoprogenitor stimulation with systemic intermittent fasting (IF) to restore bone repair capacity in aged mice. The highlights are:

      (1) Novel Approach with Aged Models:

      This pioneering study is among the first to demonstrate the rejuvenation of osteoblasts in significantly aged animals through intermitted fasting, showcasing a new avenue for regenerative therapies.

      (2) Rejuvenation Potential in Aged Tissues:

      The findings reveal that even aged tissues retain the capacity for rejuvenation, highlighting the potential for targeted interventions to restore youthful cellular function.

      (3) Enhanced Vascular Health:

      The study also shows that vascular structure and function can be significantly improved in aged tissues, further supporting tissue regeneration and overall health.<br /> Through this innovative approach, the authors seek to overcome intrinsic cellular deficits and environmental changes within aged osteogenic compartments, ultimately achieving bone healing levels comparable to those seen in young mice.

      Strengths:

      The study is a strong example of translational research, employing robust methodologies across molecular, cellular, and tissue-level analyses. The authors leverage a clinically relevant, immunocompetent mouse model and apply advanced histological, transcriptomic, and functional assays to characterise age-related changes in bone structure and function. Major strengths include the use of single-cell RNA sequencing (scRNA-seq) to profile osteoprogenitor populations within the calvarial periosteum and suture mesenchyme, as well as quantitative assessments of mitochondrial health, vascular density, and osteogenic function. Another important point is the use of very old animals (up to 88 weeks, almost 2 years) modelling the human bone aging that usually starts >65 yo. This comprehensive approach enables the authors to identify critical age-related deficits in osteoprogenitor number, function, and microenvironment, thereby justifying the combined Wnt3a and IF intervention.

      Weaknesses:

      One limitation is the use of female subjects only and the limited exploration of immune cell involvement in bone healing. Given the known role of the immune system in tissue repair, future studies including a deeper examination of immune cell dynamics within aged osteogenic compartments could provide further insights into the mechanisms of action of IF.

      We thank the reviewer for their thorough summary and positive assessment of our study, particularly highlighting its translational nature, the robust methodologies employed, and the relevance of our aged animal model. We appreciate the insightful suggestion to include male subjects and to explore immune cell dynamics in future investigations.

      We acknowledge the limitation of using only female mice in the current study and agree that future studies incorporating both sexes and investigating immune cell contributions within aged osteogenic compartments would offer valuable insights into the mechanisms underlying intermittent fasting and its impact on bone healing.

      Our focus on female mice was informed by their distinct characteristics, including delayed healing and higher fracture risk (PMID: 37508423, PMID: 34434120). Importantly, female mice present a more challenging case for bone repair, making them a stringent test for evaluating the effectiveness of our rejuvenation approaches. Moreover, our research protocol, approved under animal license, adhered to ethical principles and the 3Rs, allowing us to reduce the number of animals required by focusing on a single sex.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) The authors should provide a justification for the use of female mice in this study. Additionally, the section on animal methods should be expanded to align with ARRIVE guidelines.

      We thank the reviewer for their valuable feedback. In response to the comment regarding the use of female mice, we have included a justification in the updated manuscript. As noted, female mice were selected for this study due to their distinct characteristics, such as delayed healing and higher fracture risk (PMID: 37508423, PMID: 34434120), which provide a more challenging model for evaluating bone repair strategies. We believe this made our study a stringent test of the efficacy of the rejuvenation approaches being investigated.

      Additionally, we have revised the animal methods section to ensure it aligns with the ARRIVE guidelines.

      (2) Intermittent fasting can influence circadian rhythms in various ways. In the RNA-seq data, do the authors observe any changes related to circadian rhythm pathways?

      The reviewer raises an important point regarding the influence of intermittent fasting (IF) on circadian rhythms. Our RNA-seq data revealed significant alterations in circadian rhythm pathways, particularly within the aged periosteal CD90+ cell population during IF. Specifically, the PAR bZip family transcription factors Dbp, Hlf, and Tef (q < 0.05) were significantly upregulated, consistent with their established roles as circadian rhythm regulators (PMID: 16814730, PMID: 31428688).

      In suture CD90+ cells from the Aged + IF group, Dbp expression was significantly elevated compared to the Aged AL control group. Moreover, several other circadian-controlled genes, including Sirt1, Kat2b, Csnk1e, Ezh2, Fbxw11, and Ucp2 (p < 0.05), were also upregulated (Fig. 4b), suggesting enrichment of Clock/Per2/Arntl transcriptional targets, essential components of the circadian clock.

      The observed upregulation of circadian rhythm effectors like Dbp, Hlf, and Tef further suggests a potential role for circadian transcription in CD90+ cell rejuvenation and bone repair in aged mice. While previous studies have primarily focused on the role of circadian rhythms in osteoblasts in vitro (PMID: 34579752, PMID: 30290183), our findings provide compelling evidence for their involvement in bone regeneration in vivo, providing compelling evidence for future investigation into this mechanism.

      Chip-SEQ studies have shown D-box sites near promoters in Wnt/β-catenin components (e.g. Lrp6, Lrp5, Wnt8a, Fzd4) in pro-osteogenic transcription factor Zbtb16 (and see Fig 5), and in 11 of the 44 mouse collagen genes (PMID: 31428688). These components are known to regulate osteogenesis, and their proximity to circadian-controlled transcription factors suggests a possible overlap between circadian regulation and Wnt signaling in promoting bone repair.  Additionally, circadian rhythmicity, stem cell function, and Wnt signaling are interlinked (PMID: 29277155, PMID: 25414671). Food intake is a powerful regulator of the circadian rhythm in several organs (PMID: 11114885, PMID: 32363197), but little is known about the diet-circadian interaction in bone repair. The possibility that circadian transcription can be harnessed to target Aged stem cell function towards bone repair is a promising prospect.

      We have incorporated this information in Figure 2 - figure supplement 3G-H, the results section as well as in the discussion.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) The authors refer to 'altered cellular mechanobiology', 'age-related changes in mechanobiology', etc. Here, they are using this terminology to refer to changes in F-actin intensity and nuclear shape. While I agree that these measures are indicators of a cellular response to mechanical cues, calling this 'changes in mechanobiology' doesn't sound quite correct to me. 'Mechanobiology' to me, is a field of study. Perhaps the authors should consider changing their terminology.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s insightful comment on the terminology used in our manuscript. We agree that the term "mechanobiology" is a broad field of study and using it in the context of changes in F-actin intensity and nuclear shape may be misleading. We have revised the text to better reflect the specific cellular responses to mechanical cues, such as changes in the cytoskeleton and nuclear morphology, rather than referring to them as "altered mechanobiology." The updated terminology more accurately conveys the observed cellular alterations in response to mechanical forces. We have made these adjustments throughout the manuscript for clarity and precision.

      (2) Three of the measures the authors use to highlight age-related changes (and rejuvenation) in their animal model are F-actin intensity, nuclear shape, and vascularisation. However, they never really explain what they believe these readouts mean practically/functionally. Indeed, it makes sense that less vascularisation would be associated with an aged phenotype and preclude healing, but this is only mentioned somewhat cursorily in the discussion. While vascularisation is discussed in the context of aging in the discussion, it is not discussed in the context of healing (which would seem relevant in the context of vascularisation being used as a readout in the healing models in response to Akk and IF treatment). Similarly, the changes in F-actin intensity and nuclear shape might suggest changes in the stiffness of the periosteum (as mentioned in the discussion), which could indeed be an indicator of an aged phenotype; however, their role in healing (in response to Akk and IF) are not clearly articulated.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s insightful comments and have made revisions to clarify the implications of age-related changes in vascularization, F-actin intensity, and nuclear shape, as well as the functional significance of these observations in the context of healing and rejuvenation.

      Vascularization:

      Vascularization and modulation of blood flow are critical for calvarial bone repair, as supported by multiple studies (e.g., PMID: 38032405, PMID: 21156316, PMID: 25640220). Early in the calvarial repair process, blood vessels grow independently of osteoprogenitor cells, establishing a supportive environment that promotes osteoprogenitor migration and subsequent ossification (PMID: 38834586). Furthermore, angiogenic vessels from the periosteum at defect edges contribute to creating a specialized microenvironment essential for bone healing (PMID: 38834586, PMID: 38032405). Compromised vascularization significantly impairs the healing of critical-sized calvarial defects (PMID: 29702250).

      Our data reveal a decline in periosteal vascularization with age, potentially compromising this microenvironment and impairing repair in aged animals. Importantly, our findings indicate that intermittent fasting (IF) reverses this phenotype by restoring periosteal vascularization. This rejuvenation of the vascular microenvironment aligns with improved bone repair outcomes in aged mice subjected to IF. We have revised the manuscript to emphasize the importance of vascularization in healing and to highlight the role of IF in restoring this critical aspect of the bone healing microenvironment.

      F-actin intensity and nuclear shape:

      Age-related changes in F-actin intensity and nuclear shape are associated with increased tissue stiffness, a hallmark of aging. Tissue stiffness has been shown to impair progenitor cell function and hinder repair in various systems, including neuroprogenitors (PMID: 31413369). Softening the extra cellular matrix in aged tissues has been demonstrated to partially restore progenitor function and improve repair outcomes, as seen in the case of neuroprogenitors (PMID: 31413369). In our study, IF reversed age-associated changes in F-actin expression and nuclear shape, restoring these parameters to a phenotype resembling that of younger animals. This suggests that IF mitigates the mechanical changes associated with aging, reducing tissue stiffness and rejuvenating the periosteum to facilitate improved bone healing, similar to the outcomes observed in younger models.

      Following the reviewer’s advice, we have revised the text to clearly articulate the correlations and interpretations of our data regarding tissue mechanics and bone repair. Thank you for highlighting these critical aspects.

      (3) In relation to my point 2) on nuclear shape, there are reports that aging is linked to changes in Lamin B1. Have the authors considered this? It might provide a clearer link between their data and the tissue-level phenotypes they observe.

      Thank you for your comment regarding the potential link between aging and changes in Lamin B1. Following your suggestion, we performed Lamin B1 immunostaining on samples from Young, Adult, Aged, and Aged + IF groups. However, no significant differences in Lamin B1 levels were observed across these groups. These findings indicate that changes in Lamin B1 in osteoprogenitors are not apparent during aging, suggesting that Lamin B1 alterations in the context of aging may be tissue- and cell-type-specific.

      The new data was added in Figure 1 - figure supplement 2i-j.

      (4) In the data associated with Figure 2, the authors find that in the aged mice, MMP9 expression is increased, but MMP2 expression is decreased. They associate the decrease in MMP2 expression with decreased migration, but the canonical function of MMP9 should be similar to that of MMP2. Are there tissue-specific differences in the activity of MMP2/9 that could account for this?

      Thank you for the thoughtful comment. While both MMP-2 and MMP-9 are involved in ECM remodeling and share some overlapping canonical functions, their roles are context-dependent and exhibit tissue-specific differences that could explain the observed changes in aged mice. MMP-2 has been shown to play a critical role in maintaining the structural and functional integrity of flat bones, such as those in the craniofacial skeleton, by supporting bone remodeling (PMID: 17400654, PMID: 17440987, PMID: 16959767). The decreased expression of MMP-2 in aged mice may impair these local processes, leading to reduced migratory capacity of osteoprogenitors and contributing to aging-related changes in flat bone structure and function.

      In contrast, MMP-9 is more prominently involved in long bone remodeling, particularly at the growth plate where it regulates hypertrophic chondrocyte turnover, vascularization, and ossification during endochondral bone formation (PMID: 21611966, PMID: 9590175, PMID: 23782745, PMID: 16169742 ). Additionally, MMP-2 and MMP-9 differ in their regulation of specific ECM substrates and their interactions with bone-resident cells, which may further drive divergent outcomes in distinct bone types. For example, MMP-9’s role in osteoclastogenesis and its regulation of ECM proteins like type I collagen could be more critical in long bones, while MMP-2’s involvement in fine-tuning ECM microarchitecture may hold greater importance in flat bones.

      The increased expression of MMP-9 in aged calvarial osteoprogenitors may reflect a compensatory mechanism in response to the reduced MMP-2 activity, possibly in response to increased ECM turnover demands. Further studies examining the precise molecular pathways driving these changes in osteoprogenitors will help clarify the underlying mechanisms and their contributions to age-related alterations in flat bone structure and function.

      (5) In lines 391-2, the authors conclude that the data from Figure 4 shows that "during IF, CD90 cells, despite being aged, are more capable of ECM modulation and migration". The authors certainly present evidence that this is true, but the RNAseq showed that the enriched GO terms were predominantly associated with immune responses ('response to cytokine') and the proliferation phenotype seems very strong. Therefore, I would suggest that this overarching statement regarding the findings be less focussed on this one aspect of the finding, which doesn't look to be the dominant phenotype of the cellular response. And indeed, the authors move on from here to explore a mechanism associated with metabolism, not specifically with ECM remodelling.

      We greatly appreciate the reviewer insight regarding the interpretation of our findings, particularly the conclusion drawn from Figure 4.

      In response, we have revised the conclusion to more accurately reflect these findings.

      The revised text in the conclusion now reads: " Together, these findings suggest that IF rejuvenates aged CD90+ cells, in part, by enhancing proliferation, immune response, ECM remodeling, Wnt/β-catenin pathway, and metabolism, including increased ATP levels and decreased AMPK levels.”

      We hope that this adjustment better aligns with your suggestion and provides a more accurate summary of the key findings.

      (6) Fasting blood glucose levels are often cited as an indicator of metabolic health. Did the authors look at this in their animals who underwent the IF protocol? Could this have had an impact on the healing response?

      We thank the reviewer for this insightful comment. Throughout our study, we have withdrawn blood from the animals for various analyses that were not included in this manuscript in order to maintain focus on the osteoprogenitors.

      Our analysis included the assessment of the metabolic health of the animals using fasting blood glucose levels and the area under the curve (AUC) of the intraperitoneal glucose tolerance test (IPGTT).

      Fasting blood glucose levels reflect the animals' ability to maintain stable glucose levels after fasting, while the AUC from the IPGTT measures how efficiently glucose is cleared from the bloodstream following a glucose challenge. Typically, lower fasting blood glucose levels and reduced AUC indicate improved insulin sensitivity, better glucose metabolism, and enhanced metabolic control (PMID: 18812462, PMID: 19638507).

      Our findings show that intermittent fasting (IF) significantly reduced both the fasting blood glucose levels and the AUC in the IPGTT. This indicates that IF enhances metabolic flexibility, likely through improved insulin sensitivity and better glucose homeostasis. By lowering fasting blood glucose, IF reduces the reliance on excessive gluconeogenesis during fasting, while a reduced AUC indicates more efficient postprandial glucose clearance, consistent with enhanced insulin action and reduced fluctuations in blood glucose levels. The new data has been incorporated in Figure 3 - figure supplement 1d-g.

      Methods:

      “Blood glucose level measurement

      Fasting blood glucose levels were measured (Accu-Check tests strips) from 6h fasting mice by blood sampling the tail vein. For intraperitoneal glucose tolerance test (IPGTT), glucose was injected intraperitoneally (2 g/kg), and the blood glucose levels were measured after 15, 30, 60 and 120 minutes.”

      Improved metabolic health through lower fasting glucose and reduced AUC can have profound implications for tissue repair (PMID: 32809434). Stable glucose levels ensure a consistent energy supply for key cellular processes, such as cell proliferation, migration, and differentiation, which are essential for regeneration. Enhanced insulin sensitivity supports nutrient delivery to cells and reduces inflammation, creating an environment conducive to tissue healing. Additionally, intermittent fasting's ability to optimize glucose metabolism and regulate insulin secretion may enhance the function of stem and progenitor cells, further improving the tissue repair process (PMID: 28843700). Together, these findings suggest a mechanistic link between improved metabolic health and the enhanced healing observed in animals subjected to intermittent fasting.

      (7) In Supplementary Figure 10, the authors look at bone remodelling by assessing TRAP staining, as an indicator of osteoclast activity. I'm not sure if these data add all that much to the study. The authors have looked at bone formation at a tissue level using microCT. Here, they look at bone resorption at a cellular level with the TRAP assay. Overall, this probably suggests more bone remodelling, but the TRAP assay on its own at the cellular level could also be interpreted as an osteoporosis-like phenotype. This is clearly not the case because the authors show robust bone healing by microCT. In short, as an isolated measure of osteoclast activity at the cellular level without cellular-level assays of osteoblast activity, the interpretation of these data is not that clear. The microCT speaks far more of the phenotype and is, in my opinion, sufficient to make this point.

      We thank the reviewer for their comments regarding the interpretation of the TRAP staining data and its context within the study. We appreciate the concern that, without direct assays of osteoblast activity, the TRAP assay could lead to ambiguity.

      We have shown that intermittent fasting significantly increases the number and function of osteoprogenitor cells, the precursors to osteoblasts. While we acknowledge that these data do not directly measure osteoblast numbers or activity, they strongly suggest an increased capacity for osteoblast differentiation and bone formation. This aligns with the microCT findings of robust bone structure and healing.

      After careful consideration and given that the microCT and histology findings  already provide robust and comprehensive evidence for bone structure and healing, we have decided to remove the TRAP staining data from the manuscript. We believe this change simplifies the manuscript and strengthens its focus on the most impactful data.

      (8) In the discussion, the authors make a number of links between aging and IF. However, one of the exciting conclusions of this manuscript is that IF aids in healing in aged animals. In this context, IF has not impacted the aging process itself because the animals have not experienced an IF protocol across their lifespan, but rather only after injury. In this context, perhaps the authors should also be focussing their discussion on evidence of the short-term response to IF rather than its effects on aging, which are longer-term.

      We appreciate the reviewer's comment and agree that emphasizing the short-term effects of intermittent fasting is crucial. Our study is the first to examine this protocol in Aged animals.

      To address this, we have revised the discussion and highlighted how short-term IF enhances metabolic health, promotes osteoprogenitor functionality, and supports bone remodeling, as observed in our study.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) The authors should clarify details on intermittent fasting protocols, especially regarding caloric intake differences between fasting and non-fasting days, to aid reproducibility.

      We appreciate the reviewer's suggestions and have incorporated them by clarifying the relevant details. The new data are presented in Figure 3 - figure supplement 1a-c.

      Methods:

      “Caloric intake calculation

      To assess the caloric intake of mice, the food was weighted when made available to the mice (Win), and when removed (Wout). The daily consumed food was calculated based on the weight difference (Win - Wout), then converted to kcal (1 g = 3.02 kcal, LabDiet, 5053), and expressed as kcal/mouse/day for each cage (n cage ³ 3 with 1 to 5 mice/cage).”

      (2) Did the authors evaluate the effect of their intermittent fasting protocol on fasting blood glucose levels?

      Following the reviewer comment we included two measurements: 1) Fasting blood glucose, which reflects the ability to maintain glucose homeostasis during fasting, and 2) fasting blood glucose levels and the area under the curve (AUC) of the intraperitoneal glucose tolerance test (IPGTT), which measures glucose clearance efficiency after a glucose challenge. Lower values for both typically indicate improved insulin sensitivity, glucose metabolism, and metabolic control.

      Our findings demonstrate that intermittent fasting significantly reduced both fasting blood glucose and IPGTT AUC, suggesting enhanced metabolic flexibility, likely through improved insulin sensitivity and glucose homeostasis. Lower fasting blood glucose with IF indicates reduced reliance on gluconeogenesis during fasting, while a reduced AUC suggests more efficient postprandial glucose clearance, consistent with enhanced insulin action and reduced blood glucose fluctuations. This new data is included in Figure 3 - figure supplement 1.

      Generally, the improved metabolic environment supports tissue repair by ensuring adequate energy for cell proliferation and migration, reducing inflammation, and promoting the function of stem cells involved in tissue regeneration. Thus, this outcome of intermittent fasting may create a more favorable environment for tissue repair, potentially accelerating the healing of damaged tissues and improving overall regenerative capacity.

      (3) In Figure 1E-F, the nuclei have an interesting shape and the authors quantified F-actin. Given the role of lamin B in nuclear integrity, an analysis of lamin B expression and its structural integrity in aged osteoprogenitors could provide valuable insights into cellular aging mechanisms and their potential reversal with intermittent fasting.

      In response to the reviewer's comment, we performed Lamin B1 immunostaining on samples from Young, Adult, Aged, and Aged + IF groups. We observed no significant differences in Lamin B1 levels across these groups. This suggests that age-related changes in Lamin B1 are not evident in osteoprogenitors and may be tissue- or cell-type specific. The new data was added in Figure 1 - figure supplement 2i-j.

      (4) The authors should explain, in the main text or the methods section, why are they only using females in this study.

      We appreciate the reviewer's comment regarding the use of female mice. Female mice were chosen for this study due to their delayed healing and higher fracture risk (PMID: 37508423, PMID: 34434120), presenting a more challenging model for evaluating bone repair strategies and providing a stringent test of our rejuvenation approaches. This justification has been added to the revised manuscript. The animal methods section has also been updated to comply with ARRIVE guidelines.

      (5) This story stands alone and has an incredible amount of data. However, for a follow-up study, I would like to suggest consideration of including a broader analysis of immune cell involvement within the osteogenic compartments to strengthen the mechanistic understanding of IF's impact.

      We thank the reviewer for this insightful suggestion. We agree that investigating the role of immune cells within the osteogenic compartments could provide valuable mechanistic insights into how intermittent fasting influences tissue regeneration. Immune cells are key mediators of inflammation and repair, and their interactions with osteoprogenitors and other cells in the bone healing environment likely contribute to IF's effects.

      While our study focuses on IF's impact on osteoprogenitor function and tissue repair, we acknowledge the importance of future research exploring immune cell involvement. Techniques like single-cell RNA sequencing or flow cytometry could characterize immune cell populations and their functional states within osteogenic niches, allowing for a deeper understanding of immune-skeletal interactions during IF-mediated bone healing. We appreciate the reviewer highlighting this promising avenue for future research.

      Minor corrections to the text and figures:

      (1) References formatting should be revised (eg. line 41).

      The reference formatting was corrected.

      (2) Line 144 - what do the authors mean by p2 in the references?

      Thank you for your comment, we corrected the error and removed p2 from the reference.

    1. when we analyzed the the dominant cultural operating system, because there's more than a political economy, it's a it's a, as we've said, a totalizing operating system. And we're going to call it neoliberalism

      for - definition - neoliberalism - as the name of the dominant, totalizing, cultural operating system of modernity - Post Capitalist Philanthropy Webinar 1 - Alnoor Ladha - Lynn Murphy - 2023 - summary - neoliberalism - as the name of the dominant, totalizing, cultural operating system of modernity - Post Capitalist Philanthropy Webinar 1 - Alnoor Ladha - Lynn Murphy - 2023 definition - neoliberalism - as the name of the dominant, totalizing, cultural operating system of modernity - Post Capitalist Philanthropy Webinar 1 - Alnoor Ladha - Lynn Murphy - 2023 - Neoliberalism is a totalizing, cultural operating system for modernity - It is all of these things: - a political philosophy - an economic practice - a cosmology - a wordview - an ontology - a theocracy - a religious worldview based on faith - Most of the dogmas of neoliberalism have been proven to be false, and yet it is still taught in most institutions of higher education summary - Some of the premises of neoliberalism are: - 1. humans are homo economicus - our chief concern is our selves and NOT others - Enlightenment theories - Scientism - Evolutionary theory - All our systems are designed on this false premise - 2. Hierarchy is inevitable and necessary for order. Without it, we would revert to beasts - The system embeds - Patriarchism - White Supremacy - Gender inequality - 3. The individual is the primary unit of power - together with 1) and 2), it creates inherent competition - 4. Material wealth and power is the measure of wellbeing - If you have money, you are considered a success, otherwise, you are considered a moral failure

    1. Sommaire avec timestamps de "Enseignement 2024-2025 : Questions d’éducation (suite) 5"

      Introduction et hommages (0:00 - 2:54)

      • Le professeur Pierre-Michel Menger commence son cours en remerciant son équipe de recherche, notamment Colin Marchica et Colombe Saard, pour leur travail sur les mathématiques. [1, 2]
      • Il remercie également André Deledic, co-fondateur du concours Kangourou des mathématiques, et ses fils, pour leur collaboration et l'accès aux données du concours. [3]
      • Il mentionne Amandine Aftalion, mathématicienne et directrice de recherche CNRS, qui l'a mis en contact avec André Deledic. [4]

      Le concours Kangourou : un aperçu (2:55 - 3:29)

      • Le concours Kangourou est le plus grand concours français de mathématiques en termes de participation. [5]
      • Il s'adresse à tous les niveaux scolaires, du CE2 à la terminale, et même au-delà. [5]
      • Comparaison avec les tests internationaux (3:30 - 4:11)
      • Le professeur souligne la différence entre la participation volontaire au concours Kangourou et la participation obligatoire aux tests internationaux comme PISA et TIMSS. [6]
      • Il met en avant l'énergie "ludo-mathématique" que représente la participation au concours Kangourou. [7]
      • L'importance des activités périscolaires (4:12 - 6:43)
      • Le professeur insiste sur l'importance des activités périscolaires en complément de l'enseignement scolaire. [8, 9]
      • Il cite le rapport Villani-Torossian (2018) qui met en avant la valeur des concours et clubs de mathématiques. [10]
      • Il souligne l'importance de l'effort et du plaisir dans l'apprentissage des mathématiques. [11]

      Analyse des résultats du concours Kangourou (6:44 - 1:07:14)

      • Le professeur présente une analyse détaillée des données du concours Kangourou, notamment la distribution des scores, les taux de réussite et les stratégies des élèves. [12-17]
      • Il met en évidence l'effet de l'entraînement sur les résultats des élèves. [18]
      • Participation des établissements (1:07:15 - 1:35:12)
      • Le professeur analyse la participation des établissements au concours Kangourou, en distinguant le public et le privé. [19-21]
      • Il observe que les établissements privés s'investissent davantage dans le concours que les établissements publics. [22]
      • Il présente un palmarès des 20 établissements ayant la plus forte participation au concours. [23, 24]
      • Il analyse l'influence de la valeur scolaire des établissements (mesurée par le taux de mention au brevet) sur leur participation au concours. [25, 26]
      • Participation et performance des filles et des garçons (1:35:13 - 2:00:46)
      • Le professeur analyse les différences de participation et de performance entre les filles et les garçons au concours Kangourou. [27-29]
      • Il observe un écart croissant entre les scores des garçons et des filles à mesure que la scolarité progresse. [30, 31]
      • Il met en avant le rôle des "role models" féminins pour encourager la participation des filles aux mathématiques. [32]

      Conclusion (2:00:47 - 2:00:59)

      Le professeur conclut son cours en encourageant la participation aux activités mathématiques comme le concours Kangourou. [33]

    1. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      In this work, Chang-Gonzalez and coworkers follow up on an earlier study on the force-dependence of peptide recognition by a T-cell receptor using all-atom molecular dynamics simulations. In this study, they compare the results of pulling on a TCR-pMHC complex between two different TCRs with the same peptide. A goal of the paper is to determine whether the newly studied B7 TCR has the same load-dependent behavior mechanism shown in the earlier study for A6 TCR. The primary result is that while the unloaded interaction strength is similar, A6 exhibits more force stabilization.

      This is a detailed study, and establishing the difference between these two systems with and without applied force may establish them as a good reference setup for others who want to study mechanobiological processes if the data were made available, and could give additional molecular details for T-Cell-specialists. As written, the paper contains an overwhelming amount of details and it is difficult (for me) to ascertain which parts to focus on and which results point to the overall take-away messages they wish to convey.

      Detailed comments:

      (1) In Table 1 - are the values of the extension column the deviation from the average length at zero force (that is what I would term extension) or is it the distance between anchor points (which is what I would assume based on the large values. If the latter, I suggest changing the heading, and then also reporting the average extension with an asterisk indicating no extensional restraints were applied for B7-0, or just listing 0 load in the load column. Standard deviation in this value can also be reported. If it is an extension as I would define it, then I think B7-0 should indicate extension = 0+/- something. The distance between anchor points could also be labeled in Figure 1A.

      (2) As in the previous paper, the authors apply "constant force" by scanning to find a particular bond distance at which a desired force is selected, rather than simply applying a constant force. I find this approach less desirable unless there is experimental evidence suggesting the pMHC and TCR were forced to be a particular distance apart when forces are applied. It is relatively trivial to apply constant forces, so in general, I would suggest this would have been a reasonable comparison. Line 243-245 speculates that there is a difference in catch bonding behavior that could be inferred because lower force occurs at larger extensions, but I do not believe this hypothesis can be fully justified and could be due to other differences in the complex.

      (3) On a related note, the authors do not refer to or consider other works using MD to study force-stabilized interactions (e.g. for catch bonding systems), e.g. these cases where constant force is applied and enhanced sampling techniques are used to assess the impact of that applied force: https://www.cell.com/biophysj/fulltext/S0006-3495(23)00341-7, https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2024.10.10.617580v1. I was also surprised not to see this paper on catch bonding in pMHC-TCR referred to, which also includes some MD simulations: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-023-38267-1

      (4) The authors should make at least the input files for their system available in a public place (github, zenodo) so that the systems are a more useful reference system as mentioned above. The authors do not have a data availability statement, which I believe is required.

    1. Author response:

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      The significance of the target molecule and mechanisms may help in understanding the molecular mechanisms of metformin.

      We greatly appreciate the reviewer’s insightful comment regarding the significance of the target molecule and its mechanisms in understanding the molecular actions of metformin. ATP5I is responsible for the dimerization of the F<sub>1</sub>F<sub>0</sub>-ATPase(1-3). Hence, we propose conducting BN-PAGE followed by a western blot using the β-subunit of the F1 domain of F1F0-ATP synthase to investigate whether metformin affects its dimerization. This will provide a more direct evidence of the on target action of metformin on ATP5I. Due to the high abundance of F<sub>1</sub>F<sub>0</sub>-ATP synthase in cells and the slow ability of metformin to enter mitochondria, we plan to perform long-term treatments (3 and 6 days) with high concentrations of metformin (10 mM) to enhance the likelihood of detecting subtle yet biologically relevant shifts in the monomer and dimer populations. Prolonged exposure is expected to reveal the cumulative effects of metformin on F<sub>1</sub>F<sub>0</sub>-ATP synthase dimers/monomers ratio. We do not expect that metformin will totally mimic the cumulative effect of the dimerization as in ATP5I KO cells but we think it will be important to report to what extent this ratio is affected.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      (1) The interpretation of the cellular co-localization of the biotin-biguanide conjugate with TOMM20 (Figure 1-D) as mitochondrial "accumulation" of the conjugate is overstated because it cannot exclude binding of the conjugate to the mitochondrial membrane. It would have been more convincing if additional incubations with the biotin-biguanide conjugate in combination with metformin had shown that metformin is competitive with the biotin-conjugate.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s insightful comment and agree that the resolution provided by fluorescence microscopy makes it challenging to pinpoint the specific mitochondrial compartment where the biotin-biguanide conjugate localizes, even with additional markers such as TOMM20 antibodies for the inner mitochondrial membrane. While it remains a possibility that the conjugate binds to the mitochondrial surface, another plausible explanation is that the biotin moiety may facilitate entry into mitochondria through a biotin-specific transporter, adding further mechanistic intricacies. Furthermore, while a competition assay with metformin might help investigate interactions with mitochondrial targets and transporters (OCT family), it would not compete for biotin-mediated transport. Thus, while we acknowledge the reviewer’s suggestion, we believe such an experiment may not provide conclusive evidence regarding the conjugate’s mitochondrial localization or mechanism of entry. Instead, we will revise the manuscript to more accurately describe the findings as "mitochondrial association" rather than "mitochondrial accumulation," ensuring that our interpretation remains consistent with the resolution and limitations of the data presented.

      (2) The manuscript reports the identification of 69 proteins by mass spectrometry of the pull-down assay of which 31 proteins were eluted by metformin. However, no Mass Spectrometry data is presented of the peptides identified. The methodology does not state the minimum number of peptides (1, 2?) that were used for the identification of the 31/69 proteins.

      Concerning the mass spectrometry results, our intention was to provide a comprehensive table summarizing these findings in a separate data sheet, as part of the data availability section. To address the reviewer’s comment and ensure full transparency, we will include this table as supplementary material in the revised manuscript. Additionally, we will update the methodology section to explicitly state these criteria and ensure clarity regarding the identification process.

      (3) The validation of ATP5I was based on the use of recombinant protein (which was 90% pure) for the SPR and the use of a single antibody to ATP5I. The validity of the immunoblotting rests on the assumption that there is no "non-specific" immunoactivity in the relevant mol wt range. Information on the validation of the antibody would be helpful.

      Regarding the recombinant protein used for SPR, its purity was evaluated using a Coomassie-stained gel. For the antibody used in immunoblotting, its specificity was validated through knockout cell lines, ensuring minimal concerns about non-specific immunoactivity within the relevant molecular weight range. Unfortunately, the KO data comes in the paper after the first immunoblots are presented. In the revised manuscript, we will clearly outline these validation steps in the methods section and additional manufacturer documentation for the antibody we used.

      (4) Knock-out of ATP5I markedly compromised the NAD/NADH ratio (Fig.3A) and cell proliferation (Figure 3D). These effects may be associated with decreased mitochondrial membrane potential which could explain the low efficacy of metformin (and most of the data in Figures 3-5). This possibility should be discussed. Effects of [metformin] on the NAD/NADH ratio in control cells and ATP5I-KO would have been helpful because the metformin data on cell growth is normalized as fold change relative to control, whereas the NAD/NADH ratio would represent a direct absolute measurement enabling comparison of the absolute effect in control cells with ATP5I KO.

      The mitochondrial membrane potential depends on a functional electron transport chain which drives proton pumping from the matrix to the intermembrane space. Metformin can decrease the mitochondrial membrane potential and this usually explained as a consequence of complex I inhibition(4). It has been published the metformin requires this membrane potential to accumulate in mitochondria so the actions of metformin are self-limiting due to this requirement. The reviewer is right that ATP5I KO cells could be resistant to metformin because they may have a lower membrane potential. We do not believe this to be the case because the response to phenformin, another biguanide that can enter mitochondria through the membrane without the need of the OCT transporters(5), is also affected in ATP5IKO cells. Of note, compensatory mechanisms such as enhanced glycolysis, as observed in ATP5I-KO cells (elevated ECAR and increased sensitivity to 2-D-deoxyglucose), and the ATPase activity of F<sub>1</sub>F<sub>0</sub>-ATP synthase could potentially help maintain membrane potential suggesting that this might not be an issue in the ATP5I KO cells. We will discuss these possibilities in the revised manuscript.

      Nevertheless, to experimentally address this point, we propose measuring mitochondrial membrane potential using tetramethylrhodamine methyl ester (TMRE) and ATP levels using luciferase-based assays (CellTiter-Glo) in ATP5I-KO cells.

      Regarding the NAD+/NADH in both control and KO cells may not be very helpful because this ratio can be corrected by LDH which is induced as part of the glycolytic adaptation that occurs after inhibition of respiration. Since our KO cells have been propagated already for several passages, the extent of this adaptation is likely different from metformin-treated cells. As we mentioned in answering Reviewer 1, we will provide a more direct measurement of metformin acting on ATP5I: the levels of F1F0-ATPase dimers and monomers.

      (5) Figure-6 CRISPR/Cas9 KO at 16mM metformin in comparison with 70nM rotenone and 2 micromolar oligomycin (in serum-containing medium). The rationale for the use of such a high concentration of metformin has not been explained. In liver cells metformin concentrations above 1mM cause severe ATP depletion, whereas therapeutic (micromolar) concentrations have minimal effects on cellular ATP status. The 16mM concentration is ~2 orders of magnitude higher than therapeutic concentrations and likely linked to compromised energy status. The stronger inhibition of cell proliferation by 16mM metformin compared with rotenone or oligomycin raises the issue of whether the changes in gene expression may be linked to the greater inhibition of mitochondrial metabolism. Validation of the cellular ATP status and NAD/NADH with metformin as compared with the two inhibitors could help the interpretation of this data.

      To address the reviewer’s final comment, we would like to clarify the rationale behind our experimental approach. NALM-6 cells are very glycolytic, have low respiration rates, and weak dependence on ATP5I (DepMap score: -0.47)(6). The concentration of 16 mM metformin was chosen based on the IC50 for this cell line. This approach aligns with our focus on the anticancer mechanism of action rather than the antidiabetic effects of metformin. Both ATP status and NAD+/NADH ratios will depend on the extent of the compensatory glycolysis. On the other hand, our genetic screening evaluates cell proliferation as an integration of all metabolic activities required for the process. This unbiased screening revealed a common pathway affected by metformin and oligomycin different that the pathway affected by rotenone, which is consistent with the finding that metformin acts of the F<sub>1</sub>F<sub>0</sub>ATPase.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      (1) Most of the data are based on measurements of the oxygen consumption rate (OCR) and extracellular acidification rate (ECAR) measured by the Seahorse analyser in control and ATP5l KO cells. However, these measurements are conducted by a single injection of a biguanide, followed over time and presented as fold change. By doing so, the individual information on the effect of metformin and derivate on control and KO cells are lost. In addition, the usual measurement of OCR is coupled with certain inhibitors and uncouplers, such as oligomycin, FCCP, and Antimycin A/rotenone, to understand the contribution of individual complexes to respiration. Since biguanides and ATP5l KO affect protein levels of components of complex I and IV, it would be informative to measure their individual contributions/effects in the Seahorse. To further strengthen the data, it would be helpful to obtain measurements of actual ATP levels in these cells, as this would explain the activation of AMPK.

      We appreciate the reviewer’s observations regarding the Seahorse measurements and acknowledge the potential limitations of presenting the data as fold change. Due to experimental challenges in maintaining KP-4 and ATP5I-KO cells with sufficient nutrients, caused by their rapid glucose uptake and subsequent lactate production, it was more practical to present the Seahorse results in this format. Using inhibitors at each time point during the Seahorse experiment was not feasible, as the delay between inhibitor injections and the corresponding changes in oxygen consumption rate (OCR) and extracellular acidification rate (ECAR) would introduce variability and complicate the interpretation of dynamic responses. Nevertheless, we recognize the importance of understanding the contributions of specific respiratory complexes to OCR and ECAR. To address this, we will include a representative figure showcasing a typical Seahorse analysis, highlighting ATP turnover and proton leak after oligomycin addition, maximal respiration with FCCP, and disruption with rotenone and antimycin A. While these experiments are inherently complex due to the metabolic demands of ATP5I-KO cells, this approach will provide a clearer breakdown of mitochondrial activity. Furthermore, as mentioned in our response to Reviewer 2, we will measure ATP levels using a luciferase-based assay (CellTiter-Glo) in both control and ATP5I-KO cells to better explain AMPK activation. This will provide additional context to strengthen the interpretation of mitochondrial function and metabolic compensation mechanisms in these cells.

      (2) The authors report on alterations in mitochondrial morphology upon ATP5l KO, which is measured by subjective quantifications of filamentous versus puncta structures. Fiji offers great tools to quantify the mitochondrial network unbiasedly and with more accuracy using deconvolution and skeletonization of the mitochondria, providing the opportunity to measure length, shape, and number quantitatively. This will help to understand better, whether mitochondria are really fragmented upon ATP5l KO and rescued by its re-introduction.

      Concerning the analysis of mitochondrial morphology, we acknowledge the potential benefits of using Fiji and additional plugins such as MiNA for more accurate and unbiased quantification. Indeed, this approach could provide stronger evidence for mitochondrial fragmentation upon ATP5I-KO and its potential rescue by ATP5I reintroduction. We will consider integrating this methodology into our analysis to enhance the precision and robustness of our findings.

      (3) Finally, the authors report in the last part of the paper a genetic CRISPR/Cas9 KO screen in NALM-6 cells cultured with high amounts of metformin to identify potential new mediators of metformin action. It is difficult to connect that to the rest of the paper because a) different concentrations of metformin are used and b) the metabolic effects on energy consumption are not defined. They argue about the molecular function of the obtained hits based on literature and on a comparison of the pattern of genetic alterations based on treatments with known inhibitors such as oligomycin and rotenone. However, a direct connection is not provided, thus the interpretation at the end of the results that "the OMA1-DEL1-HRI pathway mediates the antiproliferative activity of both biguanides and the F1ATPase inhibitor oligomycin" while increasing glycolysis, needs to be toned down. This is an interesting observation, but no causality is provided. In general, this part stands alone and needs to be better connected to the rest of the paper.

      NALM-6 are very glycolytic, have low respiration rates, and weak dependence on ATP5I(6), forcing us to use higher concentrations of metformin to inhibit their growth. Recent results show that metformin targets PEN2 in the cytosol to increase AMPK activity, controlling both the glucose lowering and the life span extension abilities of metformin 7. This work raises the question whether the antiproliferative and anticancer effects of metformin are due to a mitochondrial activity or are controlled by this new pathway of AMPK activation. Hence, the genetic screening was performed to unbiasedly find how metformin works. The results provide compelling evidence for mitochondria and in particular the ATP synthase as potential targets of metformin and a foundation for future studies. We will revise the text and abstract to better reflect the exploratory nature of this finding and ensure clarity.

      (1) Paumard, P. et al. Two ATP synthases can be linked through subunits i in the inner mitochondrial membrane of Saccharomyces cerevisiae. Biochemistry 41, 10390-10396 (2002). https://doi.org/10.1021/bi025923g

      (2) Paumard, P. et al. The ATP synthase is involved in generating mitochondrial cristae morphology. EMBO J 21, 221-230 (2002). https://doi.org/10.1093/emboj/21.3.221

      (3) Habersetzer, J. et al. ATP synthase oligomerization: from the enzyme models to the mitochondrial morphology. Int J Biochem Cell Biol 45, 99-105 (2013). https://doi.org/10.1016/j.biocel.2012.05.017

      (4) Xian, H. et al. Metformin inhibition of mitochondrial ATP and DNA synthesis abrogates NLRP3 inflammasome activation and pulmonary inflammation. Immunity 54, 1463-1477 e1411 (2021). https://doi.org/10.1016/j.immuni.2021.05.004

      (5) Hawley, S. A. et al. Use of cells expressing gamma subunit variants to identify diverse mechanisms of AMPK activation. Cell metabolism 11, 554-565 (2010). https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cmet.2010.04.001

      (6) Hlozkova, K. et al. Metabolic profile of leukemia cells influences treatment efficacy of L-asparaginase. BMC Cancer 20, 526 (2020). https://doi.org/10.1186/s12885-020-07020-y

      (7) Ma, T. et al. Low-dose metformin targets the lysosomal AMPK pathway through PEN2. Nature 603, 159-165 (2022). https://doi.org/10.1038/s41586-022-04431-8

    2. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The mechanism(s) by which the therapeutic drug metformin lowers blood glucose in type 2 diabetes and inhibits cell proliferation at higher concentrations remain contentious. Inhibition of complex 1 of the mitochondrial respiratory chain with consequent changes in cellular metabolites which favour allosteric activation of phosphofructokinase-1, allosteric inhibition of fructose bisphosphatase-1 and cAMP signalling and activation of AMPK which phosphorylates transcription factors are candidate mechanisms. The current manuscript proposes the e-subunit of ATP-synthase as a putative binding protein of biguanides and demonstrates that it regulates the expressivity of the Complex 1 protein NDUFB8.

      Strengths:

      (1) The metformin conjugate and metformin show comparable efficacy on inhibition of cell proliferation in the millimolar range.

      (2) Demonstration of compromised expression of the Complex I protein NDUFB8 by the ATP5I knockout and its reversal by ATP5I expression is an important strength of the study. This shows that the decreased "sensitivity" to metformin in the ATP5I knock-out cells could be due to various proteins.

      (3) Demonstration of converse effects of ATP5I KO and re-expression ATP5I on the NAD/NADH ratio.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The interpretation of the cellular co-localization of the biotin-biguanide conjugate with TOMM20 (Figure 1-D) as mitochondrial "accumulation" of the conjugate is overstated because it cannot exclude binding of the conjugate to the mitochondrial membrane. It would have been more convincing if additional incubations with the biotin-biguanide conjugate in combination with metformin had shown that metformin is competitive with the biotin-conjugate.

      (2) The manuscript reports the identification of 69 proteins by mass spectrometry of the pull-down assay of which 31 proteins were eluted by metformin. However, no Mass Spectrometry data is presented of the peptides identified. The methodology does not state the minimum number of peptides (1, 2?) that were used for the identification of the 31/69 proteins.

      (3) The validation of ATP5I was based on the use of recombinant protein (which was 90% pure) for the SPR and the use of a single antibody to ATP5I. The validity of the immunoblotting rests on the assumption that there is no "non-specific" immunoactivity in the relevant mol wt range. Information on the validation of the antibody would be helpful.

      (4) Knock-out of ATP5I markedly compromised the NAD/NADH ratio (Fig.3A) and cell proliferation (Figure 3D). These effects may be associated with decreased mitochondrial membrane potential which could explain the low efficacy of metformin (and most of the data in Figures 3-5). This possibility should be discussed. Effects of [metformin] on the NAD/NADH ratio in control cells and ATP5I-KO would have been helpful because the metformin data on cell growth is normalized as fold change relative to control, whereas the NAD/NADH ratio would represent a direct absolute measurement enabling comparison of the absolute effect in control cells with ATP5I KO.

      (5) Figure-6 CRISPR/Cas9 KO at 16mM metformin in comparison with 70nM rotenone and 2 micromolar oligomycin (in serum-containing medium). The rationale for the use of such a high concentration of metformin has not been explained. In liver cells metformin concentrations above 1mM cause severe ATP depletion, whereas therapeutic (micromolar) concentrations have minimal effects on cellular ATP status. The 16mM concentration is ~2 orders of magnitude higher than therapeutic concentrations and likely linked to compromised energy status. The stronger inhibition of cell proliferation by 16mM metformin compared with rotenone or oligomycin raises the issue of whether the changes in gene expression may be linked to the greater inhibition of mitochondrial metabolism. Validation of the cellular ATP status and NAD/NADH with metformin as compared with the two inhibitors could help the interpretation of this data.

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Neuronal activity spatiotemporal fine-tuning of cerebral blood flow balances metabolic demands of changing neuronal activity with blood supply. Several 'feed-forward' mechanisms have been described that contribute to activity-dependent vasodilation as well as vasoconstriction leading to a reduction in perfusion. Involved messengers are ionic (K+), gaseous (NO), peptides (e.g., NPY, VIP), and other messengers (PGE2, GABA, glutamate, norepinephrine) that target endothelial cells, smooth muscle cells, or pericytes. Contributions of the respective signaling pathways likely vary across brain regions or even within specific brain regions (e.g., across the cortex) and are likely influenced by the brain's physiological state (resting, active, sleeping) or pathological departures from normal physiology.

      The manuscript "Elevated pyramidal cell firing orchestrates arteriolar vasoconstriction through COX-2-derived prostaglandin E2 signaling" by B. Le Gac, et al. investigates mechanisms leading to activity-dependent arteriole constriction. Here, mainly working in brain slices from mice expressing channelrhodopsin 2 (ChR2) in all excitatory neurons (Emx1-Cre; Ai32 mice), the authors show that strong optogenetic stimulation of cortical pyramidal neurons leads to constriction that is mediated through the cyclooxygenase-2 / prostaglandin E2 / EP1 and EP3 receptor pathway with contribution of NPY-releasing interneurons and astrocytes releasing 20-HETE. Specifically, using a patch clamp, the authors show that 10-s optogenetic stimulation at 10 and 20 Hz leads to vasoconstriction (Figure 1), in line with a stimulation frequency-dependent increase in somatic calcium (Figure 2). The vascular effects were abolished in the presence of TTX and significantly reduced in the presence of glutamate receptor antagonists (Figure 3). The authors further show with RT-PCR on RNA isolated from patched cells that ~50% of analyzed cells express COX-1 or -2 and other enzymes required to produce PGE2 or PGF2a (Figure 4). Further, blockade of COX-1 and -2 (indomethacin), or COX-2 (NS-398) abolishes constriction. In animals with chronic cranial windows that were anesthetized with ketamine and medetomidine, 10-s long optogenetic stimulation at 10 Hz leads to considerable constriction, which is reduced in the presence of indomethacin. Blockade of EP1 and EP3 receptors leads to a significant reduction of the constriction in slices (Figure 5). Finally, the authors show that blockade of 20-HETE synthesis caused moderate and NPY Y1 receptor blockade a complete reduction of constriction.

      The mechanistic analysis of neurovascular coupling mechanisms as exemplified here will guide further in-vivo studies and has important implications for human neuroimaging in health and disease. Most of the data in this manuscript uses brain slices as an experimental model which contrasts with neurovascular imaging studies performed in awake (headfixed) animals. However, the slice preparation allows for patch clamp as well as easy drug application and removal. Further, the authors discuss their results in view of differences between brain slices and in vivo observations experiments, including the absence of vascular tone as well as blood perfusion required for metabolite (e.g., PGE2) removal, and the presence of network effects in the intact brain. The manuscript and figures present the data clearly; regarding the presented mechanism, the data supports the authors' conclusions. Some of the data was generated in vivo in head-fixed animals under anesthesia; in this regard, the authors should revise the introduction and discussion to include the important distinction between studies performed in slices, or in acute or chronic in-vivo preparations under anesthesia (reduced network activity and reduced or blockade of neuromodulation, or in awake animals (virtually undisturbed network and neuromodulatory activity). Further, while discussed to some extent, the authors could improve their manuscript by more clearly stating if they expect the described mechanism to contribute to CBF regulation under 'resting state conditions' (i.e., in the absence of any stimulus), during short or sustained (e.g., visual, tactile) stimulation, or if this mechanism is mainly relevant under pathological conditions; especially in the context of the optogenetic stimulation paradigm being used (10-s long stimulation of many pyramidal neurons at moderate-high frequencies) and the fact that constriction leading to undersupply in response to strongly increased neuronal activity seems counterintuitive?

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Dwulet et al. combined experimental and modeling approaches to investigate how correlated spontaneous activity in the mouse's primary visual (V1) and primary somatosensory (S1) areas drives the development of multisensory integration in area RL. Notably, they focused on early developmental stages, before sensory experience occurs. Consistent with previous experimental findings, the authors first demonstrated that spontaneous activity becomes more sparse across development in all three areas, as measured by event amplitude, event duration, and participation ratio. Using a linear mixed model analysis to compare the maturation of this spontaneous activity, they found evidence that S1 matured the fastest. The authors then presented experimental evidence suggesting that these spontaneous events were moderately correlated both spatially and temporally.

      They hypothesized that activity-dependent mechanisms use these correlations to establish connectivity across these regions. To test this hypothesis, the authors modeled a feedforward network with connections from S1 to RL and from V1 to RL, where the strength of connections depended on a Hebbian term for potentiation and a heterosynaptic term for depression. By investigating different levels of V1-S1 correlations, they found that moderate levels of correlation led to the significant development of topographically organized connectivity while maintaining a mix of bimodal and unimodal cells in RL. Additionally, when simulating a network with a more mature S1, they observed that topographical maps improved not only between S1 and RL but also between V1 and RL. Finally, the authors use linear regression to suggest that the mixture of bimodal and unimodal cells in RL is optimal for encoding the maximum amount of information from both V1 and S1.

      However, there are significant gaps between the experimental data and the modeling setup, which weaken the paper's conclusions. Additionally, some key details are omitted, making it difficult to fully assess their analysis and interpret some of their figures.

      (1) Some of the statistical measures and techniques in Figure 1 could benefit from clearer definitions. While the thresholds for activation (peak with at least 5% dF/F0) and events (20% of recorded cells activated simultaneously) are provided, event duration and participation rate are not clearly defined. Based on this definition of event alone, it is unclear why the minimum participation rate in Figure 1F is not 20%. Additionally, the conclusion that S1 matures earlier than RL and V1 could be strengthened by including a direct comparison between S1 and RL, as the current analysis only compares these areas to V1.

      (2) The wide-field experiments in Figure 2 could be expanded to support the feedforward modeling assumptions. Currently, the spatial and temporal correlations presented leave open the possibility that these spontaneous events are traveling waves propagating from V1 to RL to S1 (or vice versa). This scenario would suggest a different connectivity scheme for the model. Clarifying this point with additional data analysis, specifically including temporal correlations involving RL, could provide stronger support for the model's assumptions.

      (3) The functional correlation map in Figure 2D appears contradictory to the authors' modeling assumption that inputs are correlated spatially in V1 and S1. While V1 seed points align topographically with RL, this organization breaks down when extended into S1. In contrast, and in support of the modeling assumption, Figure 2E shows clearer topography across all three regions. A discussion of this discrepancy would be helpful, as it's a key conclusion of the figure. Additionally, it is unclear when this data was collected during development. Clarifying the developmental stage and analyzing how this map changes over time could strengthen the results.

      (4) The modeling of spontaneous events with fixed amplitude and duration seems inconsistent with the experimental data in Figure 1, which shows variability in these parameters. This is particularly confusing in Figure 4, where S1 maturation is modeled as a stronger topographical alignment with RL, but the experimental data defines maturation based on amplitude, duration, and event rates. Justifying these modeling choices or adapting the model to reflect experimental variability would create a better connection between the theory and data.

      (5) Several important details of the mathematical model are missing or unclear, partly due to typos. The Results section mentions the general framework of the input correlation matrix (e.g., "S1 and V1 neurons were driven by a combination of events, independent and shared in each V1 and S1" and "each independent event activated a randomly chosen, contiguous set of neurons"), but the specifics are not fully explained. Additionally, the caption of Figure 5 refers to a non-linear transfer function (a sigmoid), but these details are not provided in the Methods section, which instead suggests a linear model was used. A careful review of the main text and Methods section would help ensure that all the necessary details are included and that the story is both complete and accurate.

      (6) While Figure 5 supports the paper's conclusion that a mixture of unimodal and bimodal neurons in RL optimizes information encoding, the authors missed an opportunity to strengthen the connection between the model and experimental data. Specifically, they could apply this reconstruction method to the experimental data and examine how RL's ability to reconstruct V1/S1 activity changes across development. Their model predicts that this performance would improve over time, and if this trend is observed in the experimental data, it would provide strong validation that these feedforward connections are developing in line with the model's predictions.

    2. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      The authors aim to investigate the role of spontaneous activity in shaping the development of multisensory integration in the brain, specifically focusing on the connections between primary visual and somatosensory sensory areas (V1 and S1) and a higher-order cortical area rostro-lateral to V1 (RL). They seek to understand how spontaneous activity guides the formation of aligned topographic maps and the emergence of bimodal neurons in RL.

      First, the authors found that spontaneous activity in all three areas sparsifies over time, but S1 exhibits more mature patterns earlier than V1 and RL. They claimed that correlated activity among neighboring regions of these areas during development carries topographic information. These data were used to implement a computational model that employed Hebbian rules of synaptic plasticity. The model indicated that correlated spontaneous activity can generate topographic connectivity between S1/V1 and RL and bimodal neurons in RL. The model suggested that the more mature spontaneous activity in S1 can guide map alignment between V1 and RL. In addition, the model also suggested that a mixture of bimodal and unimodal neurons in RL is optimal for decoding information from V1 and S1.

      While the data presented in the manuscript is promising and provides preliminary insights into the role of spontaneous activity in multisensory integration, it would be beneficial to strengthen the experimental foundation regarding the correlation between V1, S1, and RL. Incorporating more rigorous spatio-temporal analyses of spontaneous activity could enhance the robustness of these findings.

      Here are some important concerns:

      (1) The analysis of how spatial topography influences activity correlations in Figure 2 has several issues.<br /> 1a. While squares in V1 and S1 covered a small area of these sensory areas, the correlated territories in RL covered the entire area of RL. The topographic map in V1 continues caudally, so where is the rest of the map in RL? Something similar applies to the relationship between S1 and RL.<br /> 1b. It is essential to know how areas were drawn. High precision is required.<br /> 1c. It is not clear if correlated activity means different events in sync or large events that cover 2 or all 3 cortical areas of interest. The figure points to the second option, which contradicts the size of events at these stages, mainly in the oldest mice analyzed here.<br /> 1d. It is fundamental to know in detail and provide examples of how the detection of events was performed. For instance, could the dispersion of light from an event in V1 close to RL cause the detection of activity in RL?

      (2) For the correlations among V1, S1, and RL, it is crucial to have a consistent method to delineate the borders of cortical areas. The authors mention in one sentence that areas were drawn according to a reference map. More details are needed to convince the reader that the borders are accurate, especially because their shape and position change with age.

      (3) The results from the model seem to be based on the initial bias in connectivity between neighboring cells from the different areas. Then, it seems straightforward that implementing correlated activity with Hebbian and synaptic depression rules will force the strengthening of connections between spatially close cells. Despite this apparent predisposition of the model towards a defined outcome, the flaws in the experimental data used prevent a rigorous interpretation of the computational model.

      (4) In the Introduction, the authors nicely and briefly explain the role of primary and higher-order sensory cortices in information processing. They also explain how spontaneous activity during development helps to build these circuits by refining connections or establishing hierarchies. They continue explaining the relevance of aligning different topographic maps to allow multisensory integration. Then they provide some examples of sites of multisensory integration. This provides a general context for the data presented in the Results section; however, and importantly, there is no specific introduction of why they are interested in RL and its interaction with V1 and S1. The authors should introduce the RL area and explain why it is an interesting site for multisensory processing.

      (5) The results shown in Figure 1 corroborate published data from Golshani et al, Rochefort et al, Murakami et al. While the reproduction of data is more than welcome, the authors should specify which part of the data is completely new and acknowledge clearly the rest as corroboration of previous data. The sentence "As described in previous experiments ..." partially acknowledges this fact but is not clear enough. In addition, the transition between this part of the manuscript and the next data is not smooth. Data seems to be used to feed the model so perhaps the organization of the manuscript leaves room for improvement.

    1. 18.4B: Distribution of Blood Last updated Oct 5, 2024 Save as PDF 18.4A: Introduction to Blood Flow, Pressure, and Resistance 18.5: Systemic Blood Pressure picture_as_pdfFull BookPageDownloadsFull PDFImport into LMSIndividual ZIPBuy Print CopyPrint Book FilesSubmit Adoption ReportPeer ReviewDonate /*<![CDATA[*/ window.hypothesisConfig = function () { return { "showHighlights": false }; }; //localStorage.setItem('darkMode', 'false'); window.beelineEnabled = true; document.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].prepend(document.getElementById('mt-screen-css'),document.getElementById('mt-print-css')); //$('head').prepend($('#mt-print-css')); //$('head').prepend($('#mt-screen-css'));/*]]>*/ Page ID7854 /*<![CDATA[*/window.addEventListener('load', ()=>LibreTexts.TOC(undefined, undefined, true));/*]]>*/ /*<![CDATA[*/ //CORS override LibreTexts.getKeys().then(()=>{ if(!$.ajaxOld){ $.ajaxOld = $.ajax; $.ajax = (url, options)=> { if(url.url && url.url.includes('.libretexts.org/@api/deki/files')) { let [subdomain, path] = LibreTexts.parseURL(); 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Learning ObjectivesList the components of blood flow distribution Key Points In humans, blood is pumped from the strong left ventricle of the heart through arteries to peripheral tissues and returns to the right atrium of the heart through veins. After blood returns to the right atrium, it enters the right ventricle and is pumped through the pulmonary artery to the lungs, then returns to the left atrium through the pulmonary veins. Blood then enters the left ventricle to be circulated through the systemic circulation again. The closing of blood vessels is termed vasoconstriction. Vasoconstriction occurs through contraction of the muscular walls of vessels and results in increased blood pressure. Vasoconstriction is important for minimizing acute blood loss in the event of hemorrhage as well as retaining body heat and regulating mean arterial pressure. Dilation, or opening of blood vessels, is termed vasodilation. Vasodilation occurs through relaxation of smooth muscle cells within vessel walls. Vasodilation increases blood flow by reducing vascular resistance. Therefore, dilation of arterial blood vessels (mainly arterioles ) causes a decrease in blood pressure. Key Terms vasoconstriction: The constriction of the blood vessels. vascular resistance: The resistance to flow that must be overcome to push blood through the circulatory system. The resistance offered by the peripheral circulation is known as the systemic vascular resistance (SVR), while the resistance offered by the vasculature of the lungs is known as the pulmonary vascular resistance (PVR). vasodilation: The dilation of the blood vessels. mean arterial pressure: The average arterial pressure during a single cardiac cycle. Humans have a closed cardiovascular system, meaning that the blood never leaves the network of arteries, veins, and capillaries. Blood is circulated through blood vessels by the pumping action of the heart, pumped from the left ventricle through arteries to peripheral tissues and returning to the right atrium through veins. It then enters the right ventricle and is pumped through the pulmonary artery to the lungs and returns to the left atrium through the pulmonary veins. Blood then enters the left ventricle to be circulated again. Pulmonary circuit: Diagram of pulmonary circulation. Oxygen-rich blood is shown in red; oxygen-depleted blood in blue. Distribution of blood can be modulated by many factors, including increasing or decreasing heart rate and dilation or constriction of blood vessels. Vasoconstriction Blood distribution: Oxygenated arterial blood (red) and deoxygenated venous blood (blue) are distributed around the body. Vasoconstriction is the narrowing of the blood vessels resulting from contraction of the muscular wall of the vessels, particularly the large arteries and small arterioles. The process is the opposite of vasodilation, the widening of blood vessels. The process is particularly important in staunching hemorrhage and acute blood loss. When blood vessels constrict, the flow of blood is restricted or decreased, thus retaining body heat or increasing vascular resistance. This makes the skin turn paler because less blood reaches the surface, reducing the radiation of heat. On a larger level, vasoconstriction is one mechanism by which the body regulates and maintains mean arterial pressure. Substances causing vasoconstriction are called vasoconstrictors or vasopressors. Generalized vasoconstriction usually results in an increase in systemic blood pressure, but it may also occur in specific tissues, causing a localized reduction in blood flow. The extent of vasoconstriction may be slight or severe depending on the substance or circumstance. Vasodilation Vasodilation refers to the widening of blood vessels resulting from relaxation of smooth muscle cells within the vessel walls, particularly in the large veins, large arteries, and smaller arterioles. The process is essentially the opposite of vasoconstriction. When blood vessels dilate, the flow of blood is increased due to a decrease in vascular resistance. Therefore, dilation of arterial blood vessels (mainly the arterioles) causes a decrease in blood pressure. The response may be intrinsic (due to local processes in the surrounding tissue) or extrinsic (due to hormones or the nervous system). Additionally, the response may be localized to a specific organ (depending on the metabolic needs of a particular tissue, as during strenuous exercise), or it may be systemic (seen throughout the entire systemic circulation). Substances that cause vasodilation are termed vasodilators. LICENSES AND ATTRIBUTIONS CC LICENSED CONTENT, SHARED PREVIOUSLY Curation and Revision. Authored by: Boundless.com. Provided by: Boundless.com. License: CC BY-SA: Attribution-ShareAlike CC LICENSED CONTENT, SPECIFIC ATTRIBUTION Anatomy and Physiology of Animals/Cardiovascular System/Blood circulation. Provided by: Wikibooks. Located at: en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Anatomy_and_Physiology_of_Animals/Cardiovascular_System/Blood_circulation. License: CC BY-SA: Attribution-ShareAlike Boundless. Provided by: Boundless Learning. Located at: www.boundless.com//physiology...tolic-pressure. License: CC BY-SA: Attribution-ShareAlike Boundless. Provided by: Boundless Learning. Located at: www.boundless.com//physiology...tolic-pressure. License: CC BY-SA: Attribution-ShareAlike hypotension. Provided by: Wiktionary. Located at: en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hypotension. License: CC BY-SA: Attribution-ShareAlike Illu pulmonary circuit. Provided by: Wikipedia. Located at: en.Wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Il...ry_circuit.jpg. License: Public Domain: No Known Copyright Circulatory system. Provided by: Wikipedia. Located at: en.Wikipedia.org/wiki/Circulatory_system. License: CC BY-SA: Attribution-ShareAlike Vasodilation. Provided by: Wikipedia. Located at: en.Wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasodilation. License: CC BY-SA: Attribution-ShareAlike Vein. Provided by: Wikipedia. Located at: en.Wikipedia.org/wiki/Vein. License: CC BY-SA: Attribution-ShareAlike Venoconstriction. Provided by: Wikipedia. Located at: en.Wikipedia.org/wiki/Venoconstriction. License: CC BY-SA: Attribution-ShareAlike Blood. Provided by: Wikipedia. Located at: en.Wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood. License: CC BY-SA: Attribution-ShareAlike vasodilation. Provided by: Wiktionary. Located at: en.wiktionary.org/wiki/vasodilation. License: CC BY-SA: Attribution-ShareAlike mean arterial pressure. Provided by: Wikipedia. Located at: en.Wikipedia.org/wiki/mean%20...ial%20pressure. License: CC BY-SA: Attribution-ShareAlike vascular resistance. Provided by: Wikipedia. Located at: en.Wikipedia.org/wiki/vascular%20resistance. License: CC BY-SA: Attribution-ShareAlike Illu pulmonary circuit. Provided by: Wikipedia. Located at: en.Wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Il...ry_circuit.jpg. License: Public Domain: No Known Copyright Blutkreislauf. Provided by: Wikipedia. Located at: en.Wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Blutkreislauf.png. License: CC BY-SA: Attribution-ShareAlike Illu pulmonary circuit. Provided by: Wikipedia. Located at: en.Wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Illu_pulmonary_circuit.jpg. 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    1. Sommaire de la transcription avec timestamps

      Introduction et principe du conseil d'élèves

      • 0:00 - 0:30 : Introduction de l'épisode et présentation de Clémence Édou, professeure des écoles en CM2.
      • 0:30 - 1:00 : Explication du principe du conseil d'élèves : les enfants déposent des cartes dans une boîte tout au long de la semaine pour exprimer problèmes, propositions, questions, compliments ou excuses. Le président du conseil, qui change chaque semaine, anime la séance.
      • 1:00 - 2:06 : Exemple concret de problème soulevé lors d'un conseil d'élèves (Inaya qui parle trop) et gestion de la situation par les élèves.
      • 2:06 - 2:15 : Clémence Édou explique qu'il faut distinguer les problèmes récurrents des problèmes ponctuels qui nécessitent une intervention immédiate.
      • 2:15 - 2:34 : Description des différents temps du conseil : questions, propositions et votes, compliments.

      Bénéfices du conseil d'élèves pour les élèves

      • 2:34 - 3:17 : Clémence Édou souligne l'importance de finir le conseil sur une note positive avec les compliments.
      • 3:17 - 4:31 : Le conseil d'élèves s'inscrit dans le cadre de l'enseignement moral et civique. Il permet de travailler de nombreuses compétences : identifier et nommer ses émotions, se sentir membre d'une collectivité, comprendre l'importance des règles, assumer ses responsabilités, différencier intérêt personnel et intérêt collectif, développer l'écoute, s'estimer soi-même et avoir confiance en soi.

      Exemples de propositions et vote

      • 4:31 - 5:12 : Exemple de proposition faite par une élève (Louise) pour ajouter des détails à une frise chronologique et vote des élèves pour son adoption.

      Gestion des conflits et anecdotes

      • 5:12 - 6:40 : Clémence Édou évoque des situations où il y a eu beaucoup de problèmes à gérer. Elle raconte une anecdote illustrant comment le conseil a permis de comprendre un élève au comportement agressif.

      Fin du conseil et échanges de compliments

      • 6:40 - 8:10 : Exemples de compliments échangés entre élèves et compliment de la maîtresse à la classe.

      Partage de pratiques et importance du conseil

      • 8:10 - 8:20 : Clémence Édou parle de l'importance du partage de pratiques entre enseignants et des différentes manières d'animer un conseil d'élèves.
      • 8:20 - 8:24 : Conclusion : Clémence Édou met en avant les effets positifs du conseil d'élèves sur le climat scolaire et le recul que les enfants apprennent à prendre.

      Fin de l'épisode

      • 8:24 - 8:28: Fin de l'épisode et invitation à laisser un avis.
    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors report the role of a novel gene Aff3ir-ORF2 in flow-induced atherosclerosis. They show that the gene is anti-inflammatory in nature. It inhibits the IRF5-mediated athero-progression by inhibiting the causal factor (IRF5). Furthermore, the authors show a significant connection between shear stress and Aff3ir-ORF2 and its connection to IRF5 mediated athero-progression in different established mice models which further validates the ex vivo findings.

      Strengths:

      (1) An adequate number of replicates were used for this study.<br /> (2) Both in vitro and in vivo validation was done.<br /> (3) The figures are well presented.<br /> (4) In vivo causality is checked with cleverly designed experiments.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Inflammatory proteins must be measured with standard methods e.g ELISA as mRNA level and protein level does not always correlate.

      (2) RNA seq analysis has to be done very carefully. How does the euclidean distance correlate with the differential expression of genes. Do they represent the neighborhood? If they do how does this correlation affect the conclusion of the paper?

      (3) The volcano plot does not indicate the q value of the shown genes. It is advisable to calculate the q value for each of the genes which represents the FDR probability of the identified genes.

      (4) GO enrichment was done against the Global gene set or a local geneset? The authors should provide more detailed information about the analysis.

      (5) If the analysis was performed against a global gene set. How does that connect with this specific atherosclerotic microenvironment?

      (6) What was the basal expression of genes and how did the DGE (differential gene expression) values differ?

      (7) How was IRF5 picked from GO analysis? was it within the 20 most significant genes?

      (8) Microscopic studies should be done more carefully? There seems to be a global expression present on the vascular wall for Aff3ir-ORF2 and the expression seems to be similar to AFF3 in Figure 1.

    2. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      This study is to demonstrate the role of Aff3ir-ORF2 in the atheroprone flow-induced EC dysfunction and ensuing atherosclerosis in mouse models. Overall, the data quality and comprehensiveness are convincing. In silico, in vitro, and in vivo experiments and several atherosclerosis were well executed. To strengthen further, the authors can address human EC relevance.

      Major comments:

      (1) The tissue source in Figures 1A and 1B should be clarified, the whole aortic segments or intima? If aortic segment was used, the authors should repeat the experiments using intima, due to the focus of the current study on the endothelium.

      (2) Why were MEFs used exclusively in the in vitro experiments? Can the authors repeat some of the critical experiments in mouse or human ECs?

      (3) The authors should explain why AFF3ir-ORF2 overexpression did not affect the basal level expression of ICAM-1, VCAM-1, IL-1b, and IL-6 under ST conditions (Figure 2A-C).

      (4) Please include data from sham controls, i.e., right carotid artery in Figure 2E.

      (5) Given that the merit of the study lies in the effect of different flow patterns, the legion areas in AA and TA (Figure 3B, 3C) should be separately compared.

      (6) For confirmatory purposes for the variations of IRF5 and IRF8, can the authors mine available RNA-seq or even scRNA-seq data on human or mouse atherosclerosis? This approach is important and could complement the current results that are lacking EC data.

      (7) With the efficacy of using AAV-ICAM2-AFF3ir-ORF2 in atherosclerosis reduction (Figure 6), the authors are encouraged to use lung ECs isolated from the AFF3ir-ORF2-/-mice to recapitulate its regulation of IRF5.

    1. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In their study 'AI-Based Discovery and CryoEM Structural Elucidation of a KATP Channel Pharmacochaperone', ElSheikh and colleagues undertake a computational screening approach to identify candidate drugs that may bind to an identified binding pocket in the SUR1 subunit of KATP channels. Other KATP channel inhibitors such as glibenclamide have been previously shown to bind in this pocket, and in addition to inhibition of KATP channel function, these inhibitors can very effectively rescue cell surface expression of trafficking deficient KATP mutations that cause excessive insulin secretion (Congenital Hyperinsulinism). However, a challenge for their utility for the treatment of hyperinsulinism has been that they are powerful inhibitors of the channels that are rescued to the channel surface. In contrast, successful therapeutic pharmacochaperones (eg. CFTR chaperones) permit the function of the channels rescued to the cell membrane. Thus, a key criterion for the authors' approach, in this case, was to identify relatively low-affinity compounds that target the glibenclamide binding site (and be washed off) - these could potentially rescue KATP surface expression but also permit KATP function.

      Strengths:

      The main findings of the manuscript include:

      (1) Computational screening of a large virtual compound library, followed by functional screening of cell surface expression, which identified several potential candidate pharmacochaperones that target the glibenclamide binding site.

      (2) Prioritization and functional characterization of Aekatperone as a low-affinity KATP inhibitor which can be readily 'washed off' in patch clamp and cell-based efflux assays. Thus the drug clearly rescues cell surface expression but can be manipulated experimentally to permit the function of rescued channels.

      (3) Determination of the binding site and dynamics of this candidate drug by cryo-EM, and functional validation of several residues involved in drug sensitivity using mutagenesis and patch clamp.

      The experiments are well-conceived and executed, and the study is clearly described. The results of the experiments are very straightforward and clearly support the conclusions drawn by the authors. I found the study to provide important new information about the KATP chaperone effects of certain drugs, with interesting considerations in terms of ion channel biology and human disease.

      Weaknesses:

      I don't have any major criticisms of the study as described, but I had some remaining questions that could be addressed in a revision.

      (1) The chaperones can effectively rescue KATP trafficking mutants, but clearly not as strongly as the higher affinity inhibitor glibenclamide. Is this relationship between inhibitory potency, and efficacy of trafficking an intrinsic challenge of the approach? I suspect that it may be an intractable problem in the sense that the inhibitor-bound conformation that underlies the chaperone effect cannot be uncoupled from the inhibited gating state. But this might not be true (many partial agonist drugs with low efficacy can be strongly potent, for example). In this case, the approach is really to find a 'happy medium' of a drug that is a weak enough inhibitor to be washed away, but still strong enough to exert some satisfactory chaperone effect. Could some additional clarity be added in the discussion on whether the chaperone and gating effects can be 'uncoupled'?

      (2) Based on the western blots in Figure 2B, the rescue of cell surface expression appears to require a higher concentration of AKP compared to the concentration-response of channel inhibition (~9 microM in Figure 3, perhaps even more potent in patch clamp in Figure 2C). Could the authors clarify/quantify the concentration response for trafficking rescue?

      (3) A future challenge in the application of pharmacochaperones of this type in hyperinsulinism may be the manipulation of chaperone concentration in order to permit function. In experiments, it is straightforward to wash off the chaperone, but this would not be the case in an organism. I wondered if the authors had attempted to rescue channel function with diazoxide in the presence of AKP, rather than after washing off (ie. is AKP inhibition insurmountable, or can it be overcome by sufficient diazoxide).

      (4) Do the authors have any information about the turnover time of KATP after the wash-off of the chaperone (how stable are the rescued channels at the cell surface)? This is a difficult question to probe when glibenclamide is used as a chaperone, but may be much simpler to address with a lower affinity chaperone like AKP.

    1. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The regulation of kinesin is fundamental to cellular morphogenesis. Previously, it has been shown that OSM-3, a kinesin required for intraflagellar transport (IFT), is regulated by autoinhibition. However, it remains totally elusive how the autoinhibition of OSM-3 is released. In this study, the authors have shown that NEKL-3 phosphorylates OSM-3 and releases its autoinhibition.

      The authors found NEKL-3 directly phosphorylates OSM-3 (although the method is not described clearly) (Figure 1). The phophorylated residue is the "elbow" of OSM-3. The authors introduced phospho-dead (PD) and phospho-mimic (PM) mutations by genome editing and found that the OSM-3(PD) protein does not form cilia, and instead, accumulates to the axonal tips. The phenotype is similar to another constitutive active mutant of OSM-3, OSM-3(G444A) (Imanishi et al., 2006; Xie et al., 2024). osm-3(PM) has shorter cilia, which resembles with loss of function mutants of osm-3 (Figure 3). The authors did structural prediction and showed that G444E and PD mutations change the conformation of OSM-3 protein (Figure 3). In the single-molecule assays G444E and PD mutations exhibited increased landing rate (Figure 4). By unbiased genetic screening, the authors identified a suppressor mutant of osm-3(PD), in which A489T occurs. The result confirms the importance of this residue. Based on these results, the authors suggest that NEKL-3 induces phosphorylation of the elbow domain and inactivates OSM-3 motor when the motor is synthesized in the cell body. This regulation is essential for proper cilia formation.

      Strengths:

      The finding is interesting and gives new insight into how the IFT motor is regulated.

      Weaknesses:

      The methods section has not presented sufficient information to reproduce this study.

    1. Résumé avec Timestamps de la Transcription

      La transcription fournie concerne un épisode du podcast "Être Prof" avec Evie Laversane, une enseignante qui utilise la gestion positive des comportements dans sa classe de maternelle. Voici un résumé avec timestamps des points clés :

      Introduction et présentation d'Evie (0:01 - 2:30):

      • La transcription débute avec un court échange en classe (0:01-0:11) qui met en avant la bienveillance entre les élèves.
      • Le podcast "Être Prof" est introduit (0:13-0:36) comme une série audio où les enseignants partagent leurs pratiques quotidiennes.
      • Evie Laversane, enseignante à l'école primaire des Haau-de-Vallière à Metz, est présentée (0:37-0:46).
      • Evie explique son parcours professionnel et sa motivation pour l'enseignement (0:46-1:02).
      • Elle souligne l'importance d'apprendre le vivre ensemble aux élèves dès le plus jeune âge (1:02-1:28) et critique l'approche autoritaire de certains établissements (1:28-1:30).
      • Evie affirme que son objectif est d'aider ses élèves à transposer les compétences acquises en classe à l'extérieur (1:30-1:36).
      • Un nouvel échange en classe (1:36-1:52) montre comment Evie encourage et félicite ses élèves pour leurs efforts.

      La gestion positive des comportements (1:52 - 10:04):

      • Le podcast aborde la gestion positive des comportements (1:52-2:08), une approche qui vise à encourager les comportements positifs plutôt que de punir les comportements négatifs.
      • Evie est présentée comme un exemple concret de cette approche (2:05-2:11).
      • Evie explique que la gestion positive des comportements est un travail de tous les instants qui vise à instaurer un climat de classe positif et à favoriser le vivre ensemble (2:36-4:01).
      • Elle met l'accent sur la valorisation des compétences et des forces de chaque élève (4:05-4:36).
      • Evie décrit son rituel d'accueil du matin où elle prend le temps de discuter individuellement avec chaque élève (4:44-6:04).
      • Elle souligne l'importance de ce moment pour créer du lien avec ses élèves et gagner du temps par la suite (6:04-6:14).
      • L'autonomie des élèves est mise en avant (6:14-6:21), ainsi que la confiance que leur accorde Evie (6:55-7:17).
      • Evie utilise une métaphore de la plante pour expliquer l'importance de donner de l'espace aux élèves pour grandir (7:17-7:31).
      • Le podcast décrit ensuite l'utilisation des "billets de fierté" (7:34-10:04), des petits cartons colorés qui valident des compétences comportementales.

      Le conseil de classe et l'apprentissage explicite (10:04 - 13:55):

      • Evie utilise le conseil de classe comme un espace de parole pour les élèves (10:04-11:53) où ils peuvent exprimer leurs opinions et leurs souhaits.
      • Le podcast aborde ensuite l'apprentissage explicite des comportements (11:56-13:55), c'est-à-dire la nécessité de nommer et d'expliquer clairement les comportements attendus.
      • Evie donne des exemples concrets de la façon dont elle explicite les comportements attendus, notamment en début d'année (13:01-13:55).

      Les couleurs de comportement et l'objectif final (13:55 - 17:09):

      • Evie décrit son système de couleurs de comportement (13:55-14:32) qu'elle espère pouvoir abandonner au profit d'une simple affiche "J'ai besoin de réguler mon comportement" (14:32-15:04).
      • Elle explique que cet objectif final signifie que les élèves auront compris le sens des règles et n'auront plus besoin d'un système de récompense/sanction (15:04-15:19).
      • Evie souligne que même lorsqu'un élève est placé dans la case "comportement à réguler", l'objectif reste de l'accompagner et de lui apprendre à s'auto-réguler (15:38-16:09).
      • Les élèves sont encouragés à réfléchir à leurs comportements et à trouver des solutions pour la prochaine fois (16:09-16:27).
      • Evie reconnaît que cette approche ne fonctionne pas toujours et qu'elle doit s'adapter à la maturité des élèves (16:27-16:38).
      • Le podcast conclut en soulignant que l'objectif est que les élèves comprennent le sens des règles et soient capables de les appliquer dans leur vie quotidienne (16:38-17:09).

      Réflexions sur la gestion positive des comportements (17:09 - 20:25):

      • Le podcast aborde les interrogations d'Evie sur la transmission réelle des apprentissages (17:09-19:37).
      • Evie s'interroge sur l'impact du lien émotionnel avec l'enseignant et sur la capacité des élèves à transposer les apprentissages hors contexte (19:23-19:37).
      • Le podcast conclut que l'éducation est un pari sur l'avenir et qu'il est important d'avoir confiance (19:37-20:25).

      La transmission à la maison et l'importance de l'authenticité (20:25 - 24:44):

      • Le podcast met en avant des exemples concrets de la transmission des apprentissages à la maison (20:25-21:12).
      • Evie souligne l'importance d'être exigeant envers les élèves tout en leur faisant confiance (21:12-21:53).
      • Elle défend la gestion positive des comportements en argumentant qu'elle est plus efficace et moins coûteuse que le curatif (21:54-23:07).
      • Le podcast conclut en encourageant les enseignants à s'inspirer des pratiques existantes tout en restant authentiques (23:07-24:44).

      Conclusion (24:44 - 25:09):

      • L'épisode se termine par les crédits du podcast et l'invitation à consulter le site êtreprof.fr pour plus de ressources.
    1. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, Farber and colleagues have performed single-cell RNAseq analysis on bone marrow-derived stem cells from DO Mice. By performing network analysis, they look for driver genes that are associated with bone mineral density GWAS associations. They identify two genes as potential candidates to showcase the utility of this approach.

      Strengths:

      The study is very thorough and the approach is innovative and exciting. The manuscript contains some interesting data relating to how cell differentiation is occurring and the effects of genetics on this process. The section looking for genes with eQTLs that differ across the differentiation trajectory (Figure 4) was particularly exciting.

      Weaknesses:

      The manuscript is in parts hard to read due to the use of acronyms and there are some questions about data analysis that need to be addressed.

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The manuscript by Bindu et al. created an AAV-based tool (GEARAOCS) to perform in vivo genome editing of mouse astrocytes. The authors engineered a versatile AAV vector that allows for gene deletion through NHNJ, site-specific knock-in by HDR, and gene trap. By utilizing this tool, the authors deleted Sparcl1 virally in subsets of astrocytes and showed that thalamocortical synapses in cortical layer IV are indeed reduced during a critical period of ocular dominance plasticity and in adulthood, whereas there is no change in excitatory synapse number in cortical layer II/III. Furthermore, the authors made a VAMP2 gene-trap AAV vector and showed that astrocyte-derived VAMP2 is required for the maintenance of both excitatory and inhibitory synapses.

      Strengths:

      This AAV-based tool is versatile for astrocytic gene manipulation in vivo. The work is innovative and exciting, given the paucity of tools available to probe astrocytes in vivo.

      Weaknesses:

      Several important considerations need to be made for the validation and usage of this tool, including:

      Major points:

      (1) Efficiency and specificity of spCas9-sgRNA mediated gene knockout in astrocytes. In Figure 3, the authors utilized Sparcl1 gene deletion as the proof-of-principle experiment. The readout for Sparcl1 KO efficiency is solely the immunoreactivity using an antibody raised against Sparcl1. As the method is based on NHEJ, the indels can be diverse and can occur in one allele or two. For the tool and proof-of-principle experiment, it will be important to know the percentage of editing near the PAM site, as well as the actual sequences of indels. This can be done by single-cell PCR of edited astrocytes, similar to the published work (Ye... Chen, Nature Biotechnology 2019).

      (2) Along the same line, the authors showed that GEARBOCS TagIn of Sparcl1 resulted in 12.49% efficiency based on the immunohistochemistry of mCherry tag. It is understandable that the knock-in efficiency is much reduced as compared to gene knockout. However, it remains unclear if those 12.49% knock-in cells represent sequence-correct ones, as spCas9-mediated HDR is also an error-prone process, and it may accidentally alter nucleotides near the PAM site without causing the frameshift. The author will need to consider the related evidence or make comments in the discussion.

      (3) What are the efficiencies of Sparcl1 GEARBOCS GeneTrap (Figure 3V) and Vamp2 GeneTrap and HA TagIn (Figure 5)?

      Minor points:

      (1) Figure 3H-J. The authors only showed the representative images of Sparcl1 KO. Please consider including the control (without gRNA), given that there are still many Sparcl1+ signals in Figure 3I (likely because of its expression in other cell types?).

      (2) In figure 3Q-T, it appears that some Cas9-EGFP+ astrocytes (Q) do not express Sparcl1 (R). Is Sparcl1 expressed in subsets of astrocytes? Does Cas9-EGFP or Sparcl1-TagIn alter Sparcl1 endogenous expression?

      (3) On Page 8, for the explanation of the design of the GEARBOCS construct, the authors have made a self-citation (#43). That was a BioRxiv paper that is being reviewed currently.

      (4) For Figures 4 and 6, the graphs seem to be made in R with the x-axis labeled as "Condition". The y-axis labels are too small to read properly, especially in print. It would be better to make the graphs clearer like Figure 2 and Figure 3.

      (5) On Page 13, "Figures 3V-Y" were referred to. However, there are no Figures 3W, X, and Y.

      (6) There are a few typos in the manuscript, including line 900 "immunofluorescence microscopy images of a Cas9-EGFP-positive astrocytes (green)".

    1. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Wang et al. developed a set of optical sensors to monitor Rab protein activity. Their investigation into Rab activity in dendritic spines during structural long-term plasticity (sLTP) revealed sustained Rab10 inactivation (>30min) and transient Rab4 activation (~5 min). Through pharmacological and genetic manipulation to constitutively activate or inhibit Rab proteins, they found that Rab10 negatively regulates sLTP and AMPA receptor insertion, while Rab4 positively influences sLTP but only in the transient phase. The optical sensors provide new tools for studying Rab activity in cells and neurobiology. However, a full understanding of the timing of Rab activity will require a detailed characterization of sensor kinetics.

      Strengths:

      (1) Introduction of a series of novel sensors that can address numerous questions in Rab biology.

      (2) Multiple methods to manipulate Rab proteins to reveal the roles of Rab10 and rab4 in LTP.

      (3) Discovery of Rab4 activation and Rab10 inhibition with different kinetics during sLTP, correlating with their functional roles in the transient (Rab4) and both transient and sustained (Rab10) phases of sLTP.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) Lack of characterization of sensor kinetics, making it difficult to determine if the observed Rab kinetics during sLTP were due to sensor behavior or actual Rab activity.

      (2) It is crucial to assess whether the overexpression of Rab proteins as reporters, affects Rab activity and cellular structure and physiology (e.g. spine number and size).

      (3) The paper does not explain the apparently different results between NMDA receptor activation and glutamate uncaging. NMDA receptor activation increased Rab10 activity, while glutamate uncaging decreased it. NMDA receptor activation resulted in sustained Rab4 activation, whereas glutamate uncaging caused only brief activation of about 5 minutes. A potential explanation, ideally supported by data, is needed.

      (4) There is a discrepancy between spine phenotype and sLTP potential with Rab10 perturbation. Rab10 perturbation affected spine density but not size, suggesting a role in spinogenesis rather than sLTP. However, glutamate uncaging affected sLTP, and spinogenesis was not examined. Explaining the discrepancy between spine size and sLTP potential is necessary. Exploring spinogenesis with glutamate uncaging would strengthen these results. Additionally, Figure 4j shows no change in synaptic transmission with Rab10 knockout, despite an increase in spine density. An explanation, ideally supported by data, is needed for the unchanged fEPSP slope despite an increase in spine density.

      (5) Spine volume was imaged using acceptor fluorophores (mCherry, or mCherry/Venus) at 920nm, where the two-photon cross-section of mCherry is minimal. 920nm was also used to excite the donor fluorophore, hence the spine volume measurement based on total red channel fluorescence is the sum of minimal mCherry fluorescence from direct 920nm excitation, bleed-through from the green channel, and FRET. This confounded measurement requires correction and clarification.

    2. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This study examines the roles of Rab10 and Rab4 proteins in structural long-term potentiation (sLTP) and AMPA receptor (AMPAR) trafficking in hippocampal dendritic spines using various different methods and organotypic slice cultures as the biological model.

      The paper shows that Rab10 inactivation enhances AMPAR insertion and dendritic spine head volume increase during sLTP, while Rab4 supports the initial stages of these processes. The key contribution of this study is identifying Rab10 inactivation as a previously unknown facilitator of AMPAR insertion and spine growth, acting as a brake on sLTP when active. Rab4 and Rab10 seem to be playing opposing roles, suggesting a somewhat coordinated mechanism that precisely controls synaptic potentiation, with Rab4 facilitating early changes and Rab10 restricting the extent and timing of synaptic strengthening.

      Strengths:

      The study combines multiple techniques such as FRET/FLIM imaging, pharmacology, genetic manipulations, and electrophysiology to dissect the roles of Rab10 and Rab4 in sLTP. The authors developed highly sensitive FRET/FLIM-based sensors to monitor Rab protein activity in single dendritic spines. This allowed them to study the spatiotemporal dynamics of Rab10 and Rab4 activity during glutamate uncaging-induced sLTP. They also developed various controls to ensure the specificity of their observations. For example, they used a false acceptor sensor to verify the specificity of the Rab10 sensor response.

      This study reveals previously unknown roles for Rab10 and Rab4 in synaptic plasticity, showing their opposing functions in regulating AMPAR trafficking and spine structural plasticity during LTP.

      Weaknesses:

      In sLTP, the initial volume of stimulated spines is an important determinant of induced plasticity. To address changes in initial volume and those induced by uncaging, the authors present Extended Data Figure 2. In my view, the methods of fitting, sample selection, or both may pose significant limitations for interpreting the overall results. While the initial spine size distribution for Rab10 experiments spans ~0.1-0.4 fL (with an unusually large single spine at the upper end), Rab4 spine distribution spans a broader range of ~0.1-0.9 fL. If the authors applied initial size-matched data selection or used polynomials rather than linear fitting, panels a, b, e, f, and g might display a different pattern. In that case, clustering analysis based on initial size may be necessary to enable a fair comparison between groups not only for this figure but also for main Figures 2 and 3.

      Another limitation is the absence of in vivo validation, as the experiments were performed in organotypic hippocampal slices, which may not fully replicate the complexity of synaptic plasticity in an intact brain, where excitatory and inhibitory processes occur concurrently. High concentrations of MNI-glutamate (4 mM in this study) are known to block GABAergic responses due to its antagonistic effect on GABA-A receptors, thereby precluding the study of inhibitory network activity or connectivity [1], which is already known to be altered in organotypic slice cultures.

      [1] https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/neural-circuits/articles/10.3389/neuro.04.002.2009/full

    1. Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      This manuscript examines network mechanisms that allow networks of neurons to perform context-dependent decision-making.

      In a recent study, Pagan and colleagues identified two distinct mechanisms by which recurrent neural networks can perform such computations. They termed these two mechanisms input-modulation and selection-vector modulation. Pagan and colleagues demonstrated that recurrent neural networks can be trained to implement combinations of these two mechanisms, and related this range of computational strategies with inter-individual variability in rats performing the same task. What type of structure in the recurrent connectivity favors one or the other mechanism however remained an open question.

      The present manuscript addresses this specific question by using a class of mechanistically interpretable recurrent neural networks, low-rank RNNs.

      The manuscript starts by demonstrating that unit-rank RNNs can only implement the input-modulation mechanism, but not the selection-vector modulation. The authors then build rank three networks that implement selection-vector modulation and show how the two mechanisms can be combined. Finally, they relate the amount of selection-vector modulation with the effective rank, ie the dimensionality of activity, of a trained full-rank RNN.

      Strengths:

      (1) The manuscript is written in a straightforward manner.<br /> (2) The analytic approach adopted in the manuscript is impressive.<br /> (3) Very clear identification of the mechanisms leading to the two types of context-dependent modulation.<br /> (4) Altogether this manuscript reports remarkable insights into a very timely question.

      Weaknesses:

      - The introduction could have been written in a more accessible manner for any non-expert readers.

    1. Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      This paper describes a modification of gradient descent learning, and shows in several simulations that this modification allows online learning of linear regression problems where naive gradient descent fails. The modification starts from the observation that the rank-1 weight update of online gradient learning can be written as the outer product Δw ∝ g xᵀ of a vector g and the input x. Modifying this update rule, by projecting g or x to some subspaces, i.e. Δw ∝ Pg (Qx)ᵀ, allows for preventing the typical catastrophic forgetting behavior of online gradient descent, as confirmed in the simulations. The projection matrices P and Q are updated with a "surprise"-modulation rule.

      Strengths:

      I find it interesting to explore the benefits of alternatives to naive online gradient learning for continual learning.

      Weaknesses:

      The novelty and advancement in our theoretical understanding of plasticity in neural systems are unclear. I appreciate gaining insights from simple mathematical arguments and simulations with toy models, but for this paper, I do not yet clearly see what I learned: on the mathematical/ML/simulation side it is unclear how it relates to the continual learning literature, on the neuroscience/surprise side I see only a number of papers cited but not any clear connection to data or novel insights.

      More specifically:

      (1) It is unclear what exactly the "coordinated eligibility theory" is. Is any update rule that satisfies Equation 4 included in the coordinated eligibility theory? If yes, what is the point: any update rule can be written in this way, including standard online gradient descent. If no, what is it? It is not Equation 5 it seems, because this is called "one of the simplest coordinated eligibility models".

      (2) There is a lot of work on continual learning which is not discussed, e.g. "Orthogonal Gradient Descent for Continual Learning" (Farajtabar et al. 2019), "Continual learning in low-rank orthogonal subspaces" (Chaudhry et al. 2020), or "Keep Moving: identifying task-relevant subspaces to maximise plasticity for newly learned tasks" (Anthes et al. 2024), to name just a few. What is the novelty of this work relative to these existing works? Is the novelty in the specific projection operator? If yes, what are the benefits of this projection operator in theory and simulations? How would, for example, the approach of Farajtabar et al. 2019 perform on the tasks in Figures 3-7?

      (3) There is also work on using surprise signals for multitask learning in models of biological neural networks, e.g. "Fast adaptation to rule switching using neuronal surprise" (Barry et al. 2023).

      (4) What is the motivation for the projection to the unit sphere in Equation 5?

      (5) What is the motivation for the surprise definition? For example, why cos(x⋅μ) = cos(|x||μ|cos(θ)) = cos(cos(θ))? (Assuming x and μ have unit length and θ is the angle between x and μ).

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      This paper presents a comprehensive study of how neural tracking of speech is affected by background noise. Using five EEG experiments and Temporal response function (TRF), it investigates how minimal background noise can enhance speech tracking even when speech intelligibility remains very high. The results suggest that this enhancement is not attention-driven but could be explained by stochastic resonance. These findings generalize across different background noise types and listening conditions, offering insights into speech processing in real-world environments.

      I find this paper well-written, the experiments and results are clearly described. However, I have a few comments that may be useful to address.

      (1) The behavioral accuracy and EEG results for clear speech in Experiment 4 differ from those of Experiments 1-3. Could the author provide insights into the potential reasons for this discrepancy? Might it be due to linguistic/ acoustic differences between the passages used in experiments? If so, what was the rationale behind using different passages across different experiments?

      (2) Regarding peak amplitude extraction, why were the exact peak amplitudes and latencies of the TRFs for each subject not extracted, and instead, an amplitude average within a 20 ms time window based on the group-averaged TRFs used? Did the latencies significantly differ across different SNR conditions?

      (3) How is neural tracking quantified in the current study? Does improved neural tracking correlate with EEG prediction accuracy or individual peak amplitudes? Given the differing trends between N1 and P2 peaks in babble and speech-matched noise in experiment 3, how is it that babble results in greater envelope tracking compared to speech-matched noise?

      (4) The paper discusses how speech envelope-onset tracking varies with different background noises. Does the author expect similar trends for speech envelope tracking as well? Additionally, could you explain why envelope onsets were prioritized over envelope tracking in this analysis?

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Sun et al. are interested in how experience can shape the brain and specifically investigate the plasticity of the Toll-6 receptor-expressing dopaminergic neurons (DANs). To learn more about the role of Toll-6 in the DANs, the authors examine the expression of the Toll-6 receptor ligand, DNT-2. They show that DNT-2 expressing cells connect with DANs and that loss of function of DNT-2 in these cells reduces the number of PAM DANs, while overexpression causes alterations in dendrite complexity. Finally, the authors show that alterations in the levels of DNT-2 and Toll-6 can impact DAN-driven behaviors such as climbing, arena locomotion, and learning and long-term memory.

      Strengths:

      The authors methodically test which neurotransmitters are expressed by the 4 prominent DNT-2 expressing neurons and show that they are glutamatergic. They also use Trans-Tango and Bac-TRACE to examine the connectivity of the DNT-2 neurons to the dopaminergic circuit and show that DNT-2 neurons receive dopaminergic inputs and output to a variety of neurons including MB Kenyon cells, DAL neurons, and possibly DANS.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) To identify the DNT-2 neurons, the authors use CRISPR to generate a new DN2-GAL4. They note that they identified at least 12 DNT-2 plus neurons. In Supplementary Figure 1A, the DNT-2-GAL4 driver was used to express a UAS-histoneYFP nuclear marker. From these figures, it looks like DNT-2-GAL4 is labeling more than 12 neurons. Is there glial expression? This question is relevant as it is not clear how many other cell types are being manipulated with the DNT-2-GAL4 driver is used in subsequent experiments. For example, is DNT-2-GAL4--> DNT-2-RNAi is reducing DNT2 in many neurons or glia effects could be indirect.

      (2) In Figure 2C the authors show that DNT-2 upregulation leads to an increase in TH levels using q-RT-PCR from whole heads. However, in Figure 3G they also show that DNT-2 overexpression also causes an increase in the number of TH neurons. It is unclear whether TH RNA increases due to expression/cell or number of TH neurons in the head.

      (3)DNT-2 is also known as Spz5 and has been shown to activate Toll-6 receptors in glia (McLaughlin et al., 2019), resulting in the phagocytosis of apoptotic neurons. In addition, the knockdown of DNT-2/Spz5 throughout development causes an increase in apoptotic debris in the brain, which can lead to neurodegeneration. Indeed Figure 3H shows that an adult-specific knockdown of DNT-2 using DNT2-GAL4 causes an increase in Dcp1 signal in many neurons and not just TH neurons.

      Comments on revisions:

      The authors have made some changes in the text to tone down their claims. They have also provided additional images to support their work. However, requested controls are not provided, and new experiments are not added to address reviewer concerns.

    2. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      Sun et al. are interested in how experience can shape the brain and specifically investigate the plasticity of the Toll-6 receptor-expressing dopaminergic neurons (DANs). To learn more about the role of Toll-6 in the DANs, the authors examine the expression of the Toll-6 receptor ligand, DNT-2. They show that DNT-2 expressing cells connect with DANs and that loss of function of DNT-2 in these cells reduces the number of PAM DANs, while overexpression causes alterations in dendrite complexity. Finally, the authors show that alterations in the levels of DNT-2 and Toll-6 can impact DAN-driven behaviors such as climbing, arena locomotion, and learning and long-term memory.

      Strengths:

      The authors methodically test which neurotransmitters are expressed by the 4 prominent DNT-2 expressing neurons and show that they are glutamatergic. They also use Trans-Tango and Bac-TRACE to examine the connectivity of the DNT-2 neurons to the dopaminergic circuit and show that DNT-2 neurons receive dopaminergic inputs and output to a variety of neurons including MB Kenyon cells, DAL neurons, and possibly DANS.

      We are very pleased that Reviewer 1 found our connectivity analysis a strength.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) To identify the DNT-2 neurons, the authors use CRISPR to generate a new DN2-GAL4.

      They note that they identified at least 12 DNT-2 plus neurons. In Supplementary Figure 1A, the DNT-2-GAL4 driver was used to express a UAS-histoneYFP nuclear marker. From these figures, it looks like DNT-2-GAL4 is labeling more than 12 neurons. Is there glial expression?

      Indeed, we claimed that DNT-2 is expressed in at least 12 neurons (see line 141, page 6 of original manuscript), which means more than 12 could be found. The membrane tethered reporters we used – UAS-FlyBow1.1, UASmcD8-RFP, UAS-MCFO, as well as UAS-DenMark:UASsyd-1GFP – gave a consistent and reproducible pattern. However, with DNT-2GAL4>UAS-Histone-YFP more nuclei were detected that were not revealed by the other reporters. We have found also with other GAL4 lines that the patterns produced by different reporters can vary. This could be due to the signal strength (eg His-YFP is very strong) and perdurance of the reporter (e.g. the turnover of His-YFP may be slower than that of the other fusion proteins).

      We did not test for glial expression, as it was not directly related to the question addressed in this work.

      (2) In Figure 2C the authors show that DNT-2 upregulation leads to an increase in TH levels using q-RT-PCR from whole heads. However, in Figure 3H they also show that DNT-2 overexpression also causes an increase in the number of TH neurons. It is unclear whether TH RNA increases due to expression/cell or the number of TH neurons in the head.

      Figure 3H shows that over-expression of DNT-2 FL increased the number of Dcp1+ apoptotic cells in the brain, but not significantly (p=0.0939). The ability of full-length neurotrophins to induce apoptosis and cleaved neurotrophins promote cell survival is well documented in mammals. We had previously shown that DNT-2 is naturally cleaved, and that over-expression of DNT-2 does not induce apoptosis in the various contexts tested before (McIlroy et al 2013 Nature Neuroscience; Foldi et al 2017 J Cell Biol; Ulian-Benitez et al 2017 PLoS Genetics). Similarly, throughout this work we did not find DNT-2FL to induce apoptosis.

      Instead, in Figure 3G we show that over-expression of DNT-2FL causes a statistically significant increase in the number of TH+ cells. This is an important finding that supports the plastic regulation of PAM cell number. We thank the Reviewer for highlighting this point, as we had forgotten to add the significance star in the graph. In this context, we cannot rule out the possibility that the increase in TH mRNA observed when we over-express DNT-2FL could not be due to an increase in cell number instead. Unfortunately, it is not possible for us to separate these two processes at this time. Either way, the result would still be the same: an increase in dopamine production when DNT-2 levels rise.

      We have now edited the abstract lines 38-39 adding that “By contrast, over-expressed DNT-2 increased DAN cell number,…”, within the main text in Results page 10 lines 259-265 and in the Discussion section page 15 lines 391, 393-396.

      (3) DNT-2 is also known as Spz5 and has been shown to activate Toll-6 receptors in glia (McLaughlin et al., 2019), resulting in the phagocytosis of apoptotic neurons. In addition, the knockdown of DNT-2/Spz5 throughout development causes an increase in apoptotic debris in the brain, which can lead to neurodegeneration. Indeed Figure 3H shows that an adult specific knockdown of DNT-2 using DNT2-GAL4 causes an increase in Dcp1 signal in many neurons and not just TH neurons.

      Indeed, we did find Dcp1+ TH-negative cells too (although not widely throughout the brain), although this is not shown in the images of Figure 3H where we showed only TH+ Dcp+ cells.

      That is not surprising, as DNT-2 neurons have large arborisations that can reach a wide range of targets; DNT-2 is secreted, and could reach beyond its immediate targets; Toll-6 is expressed in a vast number of cells in the brain; DNT-2 can bind promiscuously at least also Toll-7 and other Keks, which are also expressed in the adult brain (Foldi et al 2017 J Cell Biology; Ulian-Benitez et al 2017 PLoS Genetics; Li et al 2020 eLife). Together with the findings by McLaughlin et al 2019, our findings further support the notion that DNT-2 is a neuroprotective factor in the adult brain. It will be interesting to find out what other neuron types DNT-2 maintains.

      We have made some edits on these points in page 10 lines 259-265.

      We would like to thank Reviewer 1 for their positive comments on our work and their interesting and valuable feedback.

      Reviewer #2 (Public review):

      This paper examines how structural plasticity in neural circuits, particularly in dopaminergic systems, is regulated by Drosophila neurotrophin-2 (DNT-2) and its receptors, Toll-6 and Kek-6. The authors show that these molecules are critical for modulating circuit structure and dopaminergic neuron survival, synaptogenesis, and connectivity. They show that loss of DNT-2 or Toll-6 function leads to loss of dopaminergic neurons, dendritic arborization, and synaptic impairment, whereas overexpression of DNT-2 increases dendritic complexity and synaptogenesis. In addition, DNT-2 and Toll-6 modulate dopamine-dependent behaviors, including locomotion and long-term memory, suggesting a link between DNT-2 signaling, structural plasticity, and behavior.

      A major strength of this study is the impressive cellular resolution achieved. By focusing on specific dopaminergic neurons, such as the PAM and PPL1 clusters, and using a range of molecular markers, the authors were able to clearly visualize intricate details of synapse formation, dendritic complexity, and axonal targeting within defined circuits. Given the critical role of dopaminergic pathways in learning and memory, this approach provides a good opportunity to explore the role of DNT-2, Toll-6, and Kek-6 in experience-dependent structural plasticity. However, despite the promise in the abstract and introduction of the paper, the study falls short of establishing a direct causal link between neurotrophin signaling and experience-induced plasticity.

      Simply put, this study does not provide strong evidence that experience-induced structural plasticity requires DNT-2 signaling. To support this idea, it would be necessary to observe experience-induced structural changes and demonstrate that downregulation of DNT-2 signaling prevents these changes. The closest attempt to address this in this study was the artificial activation of DNT-2 neurons using TrpA1, which resulted in overgrowth of axonal arbors and an increase in synaptic sites in both DNT-2 and PAM neurons. However, this activation method is quite artificial, and the authors did not test whether the observed structural changes were dependent on DNT-2 signaling. Although they also showed that overexpression of DNT-2FL in DNT-2 neurons promotes synaptogenesis, this phenotype was not fully consistent with the TrpA1 activation results (Figures 5C and D).

      In conclusion, this study demonstrates that DNT-2 and its receptors play a role in regulating the structure of dopaminergic circuits in the adult fly brain. However, it does not provide convincing evidence for a causal link between DNT-2 signaling and experience-dependent structural plasticity within these circuits.

      We would like to thank Reviewer 2 for their very positive assessment of our approach to investigate structural circuit plasticity. We are delighted that this Reviewer found our cellular resolution impressive. We are also very pleased that Reviewer 2 found that our work demonstrates that DNT-2 and its receptors regulate the structure of dopaminergic circuits in the adult fly brain. This is already a very important finding that contributes to demonstrating that, rather than being hardwired, the adult fly brain is plastic, like the mammalian brain. Furthermore, it is remarkable that this involves a neurotrophin functioning via Toll and kinase-less Trks, opening an opportunity to explore whether such a mechanism could also operate in the human brain.

      We are very pleased that this Reviewer acknowledges that this work provides a good opportunity to explore the role of DNT-2, Toll-6, and Kek-6 in experience-dependent structural plasticity. We provide a molecular mechanism and proof of principle, and we demonstrate a direct link between the function of DNT-2 and its receptors in circuit plasticity. We also showed a link of DNT-2 to neuronal activity, as neuronal activity increased the production of DNT-2GFP, induced the cleavage of DNT-2 and a feedback loop between DNT-2 and dopamine, and both neuronal activity and increased DNT-2 levels promoted synaptogenesis.

      As the Reviewer acknowledges this approach provides a good opportunity to explore the role of DNT-2, Toll-6, and Kek-6 in experience-dependent structural plasticity. Finding out the direct link in response to lived experience is a big task, beyond the scope of this manuscript, and we will be testing this with future projects. Nevertheless, it is important to place our findings within this context together with the link to mammalian neurotrophins (as explained in the discussion), as it is here where the findings have deep and impactful implications.

      To accommodate the criticism of this Reviewer, we have now toned down our narrative. This does not diminish the importance of the findings, it makes the argument more stringent. Please see edits in: Abstract page 2 lines 42-44; and Discussion page 22 line 586 – which were the only points were a direct claim had been made.

      We would like to thank Reviewer 2 for the positive and thoughtful evaluation of our work, and for their feedback.

      Reviewer #3 (Public review):

      Summary:

      The authors used the model organism Drosophila melanogaster to show that the neurotrophin Toll-6 and its ligands, DNT-2 and kek-6, play a role in maintaining the number of dopaminergic neurons and modulating their synaptic connectivity. This supports previous findings on the structural plasticity of dopaminergic neurons and suggests a molecular mechanism underlying this plasticity.

      Strengths:

      The experiments are overall very well designed and conclusive. Methods are in general state-of-the-art, the sample sizes are sufficient, the statistical analyses are sound, and all necessary controls are in place. The data interpretation is straightforward, and the relevant literature is taken into consideration. Overall, the manuscript is solid and presents novel, interesting, and important findings.

      We are delighted that Reviewer 3 found our work solid, novel, interesting and with important findings. We are also very pleased that this Reviewer found that all necessary controls have been carried out.

      Weaknesses:

      There are three technical weaknesses that could perhaps be improved.

      First, the model of reciprocal, inhibitory feedback loops (Figure 2F) is speculative. On the one hand, glutamate can act in flies as an excitatory or inhibitory transmitter (line 157), and either situation can be the case here. On the other hand, it is not clear how an increase or decrease in cAMP level translates into transmitter release. One can only conclude that two types of neurons potentially influence each other.

      Thank you for pointing out that glutamate can be inhibitory. In response, we have removed the word ‘excitatory’ from the only point it had been used in the text: page 7 line 167.

      In mammals, the neurotrophin BDNF has an important function in glutamatergic synapses, thus we were intrigued by a potential evolutionary conservation. Our evidence that DNT-2A neurons could be excitatory is indirect, yet supportive: exciting DNT-2 neurons with optogenetics resulted in an increase in GCaMP in PAMs (data not shown); over-expression of DNT-2 in DNT-2 neurons increased TH mRNA levels; optogenetic activation of DNT-2 neurons results in the Dop2R-dependent downregulation of cAMP levels in DNT-2 neurons. Dop2R signals in response to dopamine, which would be released only if dopaminergic neurons had been excited. Accordingly, glutamate released from DNT-2 neurons would have been rather unlikely to inhibit DANs.

      cAMP is a second messenger that enables the activation of PKA. PKA phosphorylates many target proteins, amongst which are various channels. This includes the voltage gated calcium channels located at the synapse, whose phosphorylation increases their opening probability. Other targets regulate synaptic vesicle release. Thus, a rise in cAMP could facilitate neurotransmitter release, and a downregulation would have the opposite effect. Other targets of PKA include CREB, leading to changes in gene expression. Conceivably, a decrease in PKA activity could result in the downregulation of DNT-2 expression in DNT-2 neurons. This negative feedback loop would restore the homeostatic relationship between DNT-2 and dopamine levels.

      We agree with this Reviewer that whereas our qRT-PCR data show that over-expression of DNT-2 increases TH mRNA levels, this does not demonstrate that originates from PAM neurons. Similarly, although our EPAC data imply that dopamine must be released from DANs and received by DNT-2 neurons to explain those data, the evidence did not include direct visualisation of dopamine release in response to DNT-2 neuron activation. To accommodate these criticisms, we have edited the summary Figure 2E adding question marks to indicate inference points and page 9 line 221.

      Our data indeed demonstrate that DNT-2 and PAM neurons influence each other, not potentially, but really. We have provided data that: DNT-2 and PAMs are connected through circuitry; that the DNT-2 receptors Toll-6 and kek-6 are expressed in DANs, including in PAMs; that alterations in the levels of DNT-2 (both loss and gain of function) and loss of function for the DNT-2 receptors Toll-6 and Kek-6 alter PAM cell number, alter PAM dendritic complexity and alter synaptogenesis in PAMs; alterations in the levels of DNT-2, Toll-6 and kek-6 in adult flies alters dopamine dependent behaviours of climbing, locomotion in an arena and learning and long-term memory. These data firmly demonstrate that the two neuron types DNT-2 and PAMs influence each other.

      We have also shown that over-expression of DNT-2 in DNT-2 neurons increases TH mRNA levels, whereas activation of DNT-2 neurons decreases cAMP levels in DNT-2 neurons in a dopamine/Dop2R-dependent manner. These data show a functional interaction between DNT-2 and PAM neurons.

      Second, the quantification of bouton volumes (no y-axis label in Figure 5 C and D!) and dendrite complexity are not convincingly laid out. Here, the reader expects fine-grained anatomical characterizations of the structures under investigation, and a method to precisely quantify the lengths and branching patterns of individual dendritic arborizations as well as the volume of individual axonal boutons.

      Figure 5C, D do contain Y-axis labels, all our graphs in main manuscript and in supplementary files contain Y-axis labels.

      In fact, we did use a method to precisely quantify the lengths and branching patterns of individual dendritic arborisations, volume of individual boutons and bouton counting. These analyses were carried out using Imaris software. For dendritic branching patterns, the “Filament Autodetect” function was used. Here, dendrites were analysed by tracing semi-automatically each dendrite branch (ie manual correction of segmentation errors) to reconstruct the segmented dendrite in volume. From this segmented dendrite, Imaris provides measurements of total dendrite volume, number and length of dendrite branches, terminal points, etc. For bouton size and number, we used the Imaris “Spot” function. Here, a threshold is set to exclude small dots (eg of background) that do not correspond to synapses/boutons. All samples and genotypes are treated with the same threshold, thus the analysis is objective and large sample sizes can be analysed effectively. We had already provided a description of the use of Imaris in the methods section.

      We have now exapanded the protocol on how we use Imaris to analyse dendrites and synapses, in: Materials and Methods section, page 28 lines 756-768 and page 29 lines 778-799.

      Third, Figure 1C shows two neurons with the goal of demonstrating between-neuron variability. It is not convincingly demonstrated that the two neurons are actually of the very same type of neuron in different flies or two completely different neurons.

      We thank Reviewer 3 for raising this interesting point. It is not possible to prove which of the four DNT-2A neurons per hemibrain, which we visualised with DNT-2>MCFO, were the same neurons in every individual brain we looked at. This is because in every brain we have looked at, the soma of the neurons were not located in exactly the same location. Furthermore, the arborisation patterns are also different and unique, for each individual brain. Thus, there is natural variability in the position of the soma and in the arborisation patterns. Such variability presumably results from the combination of developmental and activity-dependent plasticity. Importantly, for every staining we carried out using DNT-2GAL4 and various membrane reporters and MCFO clones, we never found two identical DNT-2 neuron profiles.

      To increase the evidence in support of this point, we have now expanded Figure 1, adding one more image of DNT-2>FlyBow (Figure 1A) and two more images of DNT-2>MCFO (Figure 1D). In total, seven images in Figure 1 and two further images in Figure 5A demonstrate the variability of DNT-2 neurons.

      We would like to thank Reviewer 3 for the very positive evaluation of our work and the interesting and valuable feedback.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      In the fly list, several fly lines are missing references and sources. 

      Apologies for this over-sight, this has now been corrected.

      We thank Reviewer 1 for their effort and time to scrutinise our work, and for their very positive and helpful feedback.

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations for the authors):

      (1) Here I provide some more specific comments that I hope will help the authors further improve the study.

      (2) L148: "single neuron clones revealed variability in the DNT-2A". How do the authors know that they are labeling the same subtype of DNT-2A neurons? 

      There are four anterior DNT-2A cells per hemibrain, that project from the SOG area to the SMP. It is not possible to verify that every time we look at exactly the same neuron, because the exact position of the somas and the arborisation patterns vary from brain to brain. We know this from two sources of data: (1) when using DNT-2GAL4 to visualise the expression of membrane reporters (e.g. UAS-FlyBow, UAS-mCD8-GFP, UAS-CD8-RFP) no brain ever showed a pattern identical to that of another brain, neither in the exact position of the somas nor in the exact arborisation patterns. (2) When we generated DNT-2>MCFO clones to visualise 1-2 cells at a time, no single neuron or 2-neuron clones ever showed an identical pattern. The most parsimonious interpretation is that the exact location of the somas and the exact arborisation patterns vary across individual flies. Developmental variability in neuronal patterns has also been reporter by Linneweber et al (2020) Science.

      To make our evidence more compelling, and in response to this Reviewer’s query, we have now added further images. Please find in revised Figure 1 A,B three examples of three different brains expressing DNT-2>FlyBow1.1. In Figure 1D, two more examples (altogether 4) of DNT-2>MCFO clones. Here it is clear to see that no neuron shape is identical to that of others, demonstrating variability in individual fly brains. We now show four images in Figure 1 and two more in Figure 5A that demonstrate the variability of DNT-2A neurons.

      (3) Figure 1E: Are all DNT-2A neurons positive for vGlut and Dop2R? This figure shows only two DNT-2A neurons. 

      Yes, all four DNT-2A neurons per hemibrain are vGlut positive and we have now added more images to Supplementary Figure S1A (right), also showing that presynaptic DNT-2A endings at SMP also coincide with a vGlut+ domain (Figure S1A left).

      Yes, all all four DNT-2A neurons per hemibrain are Dop2R positive and we have now added more images to Supplementary Figure S1B.

      (4) L156: Glutamate is generally considered to be inhibitory in the adult fly brain. More evidence is needed before the authors can claim that "DNT-2A neurons are excitatory glutamatergic neurons". 

      Thank you for pointing this out. Although our data do not conclusively demonstrate it, they are consistent with DNT-2A neurons being excitatory. BDNF is most commonly released from glutamatergic neurons in mammals, its release is activity-dependent and leads to formation and stabilisation of synapses.  The phenotypes we have observed are consistent with this and reveal functional evolutionarily conservation: (1) exciting DNT-2 neurons with TrpA1 results in increased production and cleavage of DNT-2GFP and de novo synaptogenesis; (2) over-expression of DNT-2 in the adult induces de novo synaptogenesis; (3) down-regulation or loss of DNT-2 and its receptors Toll-6 and Kek-6 impair synaptogenesis. Furthermore, we show that DNT-2 dependent synaptogenesis is between DNT-2 and dopaminergic neurons, which are involved in the control of locomotion, reward learning and long-term memory, and dopamine itself is required for such behaviour. Consistently with this we found that: (1) over-expression of DNT-2 increases TH mRNA levels, which would lead to the up-regulation of dopamine production; (2) exciting DNT-2 neurons increases locomotion speed in an arena; (3) knock-down of DNT-2 and its receptors decreases locomotion, whereas over-expression of DNT-2 increases locomotion; (4) over-expression of DNT-2 increases learning and long-term memory. Finally, in a previous version in bioRxiv, we also showed using optogenetics and calcium imaging that exciting DNT-2 neurons induced GCaMP signalling in their output PAM neurons, and in this version we show that exciting DNT-2 neurons regulates cAMP in DNT-2 neurons via dopamine-release dependent feedback. Altogether, the most parsimonious interpretation of these data is that vGlut+ DNT-2 neurons are excitatory.

      In any case, to address this reviewer’s point, we have now removed the word ‘excitatory’ from page 7 line 167.

      (5) Figure 1H, I: A more detailed description of the Toll-6 and Kek-6 expressing neurons will be helpful. Are they expressed in specific types of PAM and PPL1 DANs? The legend in Figure S2 mentions labeling in γ2α′1 zones, but it seems to be more than that.

      This information had been already provided, presumable this Reviewer overlooked this. This was already described in great detail by comparing our microscopy data with the single cell RNA-seq data available through Fly Cell Atlas (https://flycellatlas.org) and Scope (https://scope.aertslab.org/#/b77838f4-af3c-4c37-8dd9-cf7a41e4b034/*/welcome).

      Please see our previously submitted Table S1 “Expression of Tolls, keks and Toll downstream adaptors in cells related to DNT-2A neurons”.

      (6) Figure S3 should be controls for Figure 2A. It is incorrectly labeled as controls for Figure 3A. 

      Thank you for pointing out this typo, this has now been corrected.

      (7) L197: The authors state, "This showed that DNT-2 could stimulate dopamine production in neighboring DANs". However, the results do not fully support this conclusion because the experiments measure overall TH levels in the brain, not specifically in neighboring DANs. The observed effect could be indirect via other neurons. 

      Indeed, we have now edited the text to: “This showed that DNT-2 could stimulate dopamine production”: page 8 line 208.

      (8) Figure 3: If Toll-6 is expressed in specific subtypes of PAM DANs, are they the dying cells when Toll-6 was knocked down? I think the paper will be significantly improved if the authors provide a more in-depth analysis of the phenotype. Also, permissive temperature controls are missing for the experiments in (E)-(H). Permissive controls are essential to confirm that the observed effects are due to adult-specific RNAi knockdown.

      Current tools do not enable us to visualise Toll-6+ neurons at the same time as manipulating DNT-2 neurons and at the same time as monitoring Dcp1. Stainings with Dcp1 in the adult brain are not trivial. Thus, we cannot guarantee this. However, Toll-6 is the preferential receptor for DNT-2, and given that apoptosis increases when we knock-down DNT-2, the most parsimonious interpretation is that the dying cells bear the DNT-2 receptor Toll-6. Even if DNT-2 can promiscuously bind other Toll receptors, the simplest way to interpret these data remains that DNT-2 promotes cell survival by signalling via its receptors, as no other possible route is known to date. This would be consistent with all other data in this figure.

      We thank this Reviewer for the feedback on the controls. Unfortunately, these are not trivial experiments, they require considerable time, effort, dedication and skill. This manuscript has already taken 5 years of daily hard work. We no longer have the staff (ie the first author left the lab) nor resources to dedicate to address this point.

      (9) Figure 4B: This phenotype in DNT-2 mutants is very striking. Did the neurons still survive and did their axonal innervation in the lobes remain intact?

      Homozygous DNT-2 mutants are viable and have impair climbing, as we had already shown in Figure 7C.

      (10) L261: The authors mention that "PAM-β2β′2 neurons express Toll-6 (Table S1)". However, I cannot find this information in Table S1. 

      Unfortunately, I cannot identify the source of that statement at present and the first authors has left the lab. In any case, although the fact that knocking down Toll-6 in these neurons causes a phenotype means they must, it does not directly prove it. We have now corrected this to: “PAM-b2b'2 neuron dendrites overlap axonal DNT2 projections”, page 11 line 280.

      (11) Figure 4C, D: What about their synaptogenesis? Do they agree with the result in Figure 4B? 

      This was not tested at the time. Unfortunately, these are not trivial experiments and require considerable time, effort, dedication and skill. Addressing this point experimentally is not possible for us at this point. In any case, given the evidence we already provide, it is highly unlikely they would alter the interpretation of our findings and the value of the discoveries already provided.

      (12) L270: The authors state: "To ask whether DNT-2 might affect axonal terminals, we tested PPL1 axons." However, it is unclear why the focus was shifted to PPL1 neurons when similar analyses could have been performed on PAM DANs for consistency. In addition, it would be beneficial to assess dendritic arbor complexity and synaptogenesis in PPL1-γ1-pedc neurons to provide a more comprehensive comparison between PPL1 and PAM DANs. Performing parallel analyses on both neuron types would strengthen the study by providing insight into the generality and specificity of DNT-2 in different dopaminergic circuits. 

      The question we addressed with Figure 4 was whether the DNT-2 and its receptors could modify axons, dendrites and synapses, ie all features of neuronal plasticity. The reason we used PPL1-g1-pedc to analyse axonal terminals was because of their morphology, which offered a clearer opportunity to visualise axonal endings than PAMs did. An exhaustive analysis of PPL1-g1-pedc is beyond the scope of this work and not the central focus.

      (13) Figure 4G lacks a permissive temperature control, which is essential to confirm that the observed effects are due to adult-specific RNAi knockdown. 

      We thank this Reviewer for this feedback, which we will bear in mind for future projects.

      (14) Figure 5A requires quantification and statistical comparison.

      We thank this Reviewer for this feedback. We did consider this, but the data are too variable to quantify and we decided it was best to present it simply as an observation, interesting nonetheless. This is consistent as well with the data in Figure 1, which we have now expanded with this revision, which show the natural variability in DNT-2 neurons.

      (15) Figure 5B: Many green signals in the control image are not labeled as PSDs, raising concerns about the accuracy of the image analysis methods used for synapse identification. While I trust that the authors have validated their analysis approach, it would strengthen the study if they provided a clearer description or evidence of the validation process. 

      This was done using the Imaris “Spot function”, in volume. A threshold is set to exclude spots due to GFP background and select only synaptic spots. The selection of spots and quantification are done automatically by Imaris. All spots below the threshold are excluded, regardless of genotype and experimental conditions, rendering the analysis objective. We have now provided a detailed description of the protocol in the Materials and Methods section: page 29 lines 778-799.

      (16) Figure 5C lacks genotype controls (i.e., DNT2-GAL4-only and UAS-TrpA1-only). These controls are essential because elevated temperatures alone, without activation of DNT2 neurons, could potentially increase Syt-GCaMP production, leading to an increase in the number of Syt+ synapses. Including these controls would help ensure that the observed effects are truly due to the activation of DNT2 neurons and not temperature-related artifacts. 

      We thank this Reviewer for this feedback, which we will bear in mind for future projects.

      (17) L314-316: The authors state, "Here, the coincidence of... revealed that newly formed synapses were stable." I think this statement needs to be toned down because there is no evidence that these pre- and post-synaptic sites are functionally connected. 

      The Reviewer is correct that our data did not visualise together, in the same preparation and specimen, both pre- and post-synaptic sites. Still, given that PAMs have already been proved by others to be required for locomotion, learning and long-term memory, our data strongly suggest that synapses between them at the SMP are functionally connected.

      Nevertheless, as we do not provide direct cellular evidence, we have now edited the text to tone down this claim: “Here, the coincidence of increased pre-synaptic Syt-GFP from PAMs and post-synaptic Homer-GFP from DNT-2 neurons at SMP suggests that newly formed synapses could be stable”, page 13 line 351.

      (18) Figure 5D lacks permissive temperature controls. Also, the DNT-2FL overexpression phenotypes are different from the TpA1 activation phenotypes. The authors may want to discuss this discrepancy. 

      Regarding the controls, these are not appropriate for this data set. These data were all taken at a constant temperature of 25°C, there were no shifts, and therefore do not require a permissive temperature control. We thank this Reviewer for drawing our attention to the fact that we made a mistake drawing the diagram, which we have now corrected in Figure 5D.

      Regarding the discrepancy, this had already been discussed in the Discussion section of the previously submitted version, page 19 Line 509-526. Presumably this Reviewer missed this before.

      (19) Figure 6A, B lack permissive temperature controls. These controls are important if the authors want to claim that the behavioral defects are due to adult-specific manipulations. In addition, there is no statistical difference between the PAM-GAL4 control and the RNAi knockdown group. The authors should be careful when stating that climbing was reduced in the RNAi knockdown flies (L341-342). 

      We thank this Reviewer for this feedback, which we will bear in mind for future projects.

      Point taken, but climbing of the tubGAL80ts, PAM>Toll-6RNAi flies was significantly different from that of the UAS-Toll-6RNAi/+ control.

      (20) Figure 6C: It seems that the DAN-GAL4 only control (the second group) also rescued the climbing defect. The authors may want to clarify this point. 

      The phenotype for this genotype was very variable, but certainly very distinct from that of flies over-expressing Toll-6[CY].

      We thank Reviewer 2 for their very thorough analysis of our paper that has helped improve the work.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations for the authors): 

      Overall, the manuscript reports highly interesting and mostly very convincing experiments. 

      We are very grateful to this Reviewer for their very positive evaluation of our work.

      Based on my comments under the heading "public review", I would like to suggest three possible improvements. 

      First, the quantification of structural plasticity at the sub-cellular level should be explained in more detail and potentially improved. For example, 3D reconstructions of individual neurons and quantification of the structure of boutons and dendrites could be undertaken. At present, it is not clear how bouton volumes are actually recorded accurately. 

      Thank you for the feedback. The analyses of dendrites and synapses were carried out in 3D-volumes using Imaris “Filament” module and “Spot function”, respectively. Dendrites are analysed semi-automatically, ie correcting potential branching errors of Imaris, and synapses are counted automatically, after setting appropriate thresholds. Details have now been expanded in the Materials and Sections section: page 28 lines 756-768 and page 29 lines 780-799.

      We would also like to thank Imaris for enabling and facilitating our remote working using their software during the Covid-19 pandemic, post-pandemic lockdowns and lab restrictions that spanned for over a year.

      Second, the variability between DNT-2A-positive neurons with increasing sample size compared to a control (DNT-2A-negative neurons) should be demonstrated. Figure 2C does currently not present convincing evidence of increased structural variability. 

      It is unclear what data the Reviewer refers to. Figure 2C shows qRT-PCR data, and it does not show structural variability, which instead is shown with microscopy. If it is the BacTrace data in Figure 2B, the controls had been provided and the data were unambiguous. If Reviewer means Figure 1C, it is unclear why DNT-2GAL4-negative flies are needed when the aim was to visualise normal (not genetically manipulated) DNT-2 neurons. Thus, unfortunately we do not understand what the point is here.

      The observation that DNT-2 neurons are very variable, naturally, is highly interesting, and presumably this is what drew the attention of Reviewer 3. We agree that showing further data in support of this is interesting and valuable. Thus, in response to this Reviewer’s comment we have now increased the number of images that demonstrate variability of DNT-2 neurons:

      (1) We have added an extra image, altogether providing three images in new Figure 1A showing three different individual brains stained with DNT-2GAL4>UAS-FlyBow1.1. These show common morphology and features, but different location of the somas and distinct detailed arborisation patterns. Two more images using DNT-2GAL4 are provided in Figure 5A.

      (2) We have now added two further MCFO images, altogether showing four examples where the somas are not always in the same location and the axons arborise consistently at the SMP, but the detailed projections are not identical: new Figure 1D.

      These data compellingly show natural variability in DNT-2 neuron morphology.

      Third, I propose to simplify the feedback model (Figure 2F) to be less speculative. 

      Indeed, some details in Figure 2F are speculative as we did not measure real dopamine levels. Accordingly, we have now edited this diagram, adding question marks to indicate speculative inference, to distinguish from the arrows that are grounded on the data we provide.

      Accordingly, we have also edited the text in:

      - page 9, lines 221: “Altogether, this shows that DNT-2 up-regulated TH levels (Figure 2E), and presumably via dopamine release, this inhibited cAMP in DNT-2A neurons (Figure 2F)”.

      - page 20, lines 515: “Importantly, we showed that activating DNT-2 neurons increased the levels and cleavage of DNT-2, up-regulated DNT-2 increased TH expression, and this initial amplification resulted in the inhibition of cAMP signalling via the dopamine receptor Dop2R in DNT-2 neurons.”

      As minor points: 

      (1) Appetitive olfactory learning is based on Tempel et al., (1983); Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1983 Mar;80(5):1482-6. doi: 10.1073/pnas.80.5.1482. This paper should perhaps be cited. 

      Thank you for bringing this to our attention, we have now added this reference to page 14 line 394.

      (2) Line 34: I would add ..."ligand for Toll-6 AND KEK-6,". 

      Indeed, thank you, now corrected.

      (3) Line 39: DNT-2-POSITIVE NEURONS. 

      Now corrected, thank you.

      (4) The levels of TH mRNA were quantified. Why not TH or dopamine directly using antibodies, ELISA, or HPLC? After all, later it is explicitly written that DNT modulates dopamine levels (line 481)! 

      We thank this Reviewer for this suggestion. We did try with HPLC once, but the results were inconclusive and optimising this would have required unaffordable effort by us and our collaborators. Part of this work spanned over the pandemic and subsequent lockdowns and lab restrictions to 30% then 50% lab capacity that continued for one year, making experimental work extremely challenging. Although we were unable to carry out all the ideal experiments, the DNT-2-dependent increase in TH mRNA coupled with the EPAC-Dop2R data provided solid evidence of a DNT-2-dopamine link.

      (5) Line 271: The PPL1-g1-pedc neuron has mainly (but not excusively) a function in short-term memory! 

      They do, but others have also shown that PPL1-g1-pedc neurons have a gating function in long-term memory (Placais et al 2012; Placais et al 2017; Huang et al 2024) and are required for long-term memory (Adel and Griffith 2020; Boto et al 2020).

      (6) Line 401: Reward learning requires PAM neurons. PPL1 neurons are required for aversive learning. 

      Indeed, PPL1 neurons are required for aversive learning, but they also have a gating function in long-term memory common for both reward and aversive learning (Adel and Griffith, 2020 Neurosci Bull; Placais et al, 2012 Nature Neuroscience; Placais et al 2017 Nature Communications; Huang et al 2024 Nature).

      Overall, the manuscript presents extremely interesting, novel results, and I congratulate the authors on their findings. 

      We would like to thank this Reviewer for taking the time to scrutinise our work, their helpful feedback that has helped us improve the work and for their interest and positive and kind works.

    1. Note: This response was posted by the corresponding author to Review Commons. The content has not been altered except for formatting.

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      Reply to the reviewers

      Manuscript number: RC-2024-02465

      Corresponding author(s): Saravanan, Palani

      1. General Statements

      We would like to thank the Review Commons Team for handling our manuscript and the Reviewers for their constructive feedback and suggestions. In our revised manuscript, we have addressed and incorporated all the major suggestions of the reviewers, and we have also added new significant data on the role of Tropomyosin in regulation of endocytosis through its control over actin monomer pool maintenance and actin network homeostasis. We believe that with all these additions, our study has significantly gained in quality, strength of conclusions made, and scope for future work.

      2. Point-by-point description of the revisions

      Reviewer #1

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      There are 2 Major issues -

      Having an -ala-ser- linker between the GFP and tropomyosin mimics acetylation. This is not the case, and more likely the this linker acts as a spacer that allows tropomyosin polymers to form on the actin, and without it there is steric hindrance. A similar result would be seen with a simple flexible uncharged linker. It has been shown in a number of labs that the GFP itself masks the effect of the charge on the amino terminal methionine. This is consistent with NMR, crystallographic and cryo structural studies. Biochemical studies should be presented to demonstrate that the impact of a linker for the conclusions stated to be made, which provide the basis of a major part of this study.

      Response: We would like to clarify that all mNG-Tpm constructs used in our study contain a 40 amino-acid (aa) flexible linker between the N-terminal mNG fluorescent protein and the Tpm protein as per our earlier published study (Hatano et al., 2022). During initial optimization, we have also experimented with linker length and the 40aa-linker length works optimally for clear visualization of Tpm onto actin cable structures in budding yeast, fission yeast (both S. pombe and S. japonicus), and mammalian cells (Hatano et al., 2022). These constructs have also been used since in other studies (Wirshing et al., 2023; Wirshing and Goode, 2024) and currently represents the best possible strategy to visualize Tpm isoforms in live cells. In our study, we characterized these proteins for functionality and found that both mNG-Tpm1 and mNG-Tpm2 were functional and can rescue the synthetic lethality observed in Dtpm1Dtpm2 cells. During our study, we observed that mNG-Tpm1 expression from a single-copy integration vector did not restore full length actin cables in Dtpm1 cells (Fig. 1B, 1C). We hypothesized that this could be a result of reduced binding affinity of the tagged tropomyosin due to lack of normal N-terminal acetylation which stabilizes the N-terminus. The 40aa linker is unstructured and may not be able to neutralize the charge on the N-terminal Methionine, thus, we tried to insert -Ala-Ser- dipeptide which has been routinely used in vitro biochemical studies to stabilize the N-terminal helix and impart a similar effect as the N-terminal acetylation (Alioto et al., 2016; Palani et al., 2019; Christensen et al., 2017) by restoring normal binding affinity of Tpm to F-actin (Monteiro et al., 1994; Greenfield et al., 1994). We observed that addition of the -Ala-Ser- dipeptide to mNG-Tpm fusion, indeed, restored full length actin cables when expressed in Dtpm1 cells, performing significantly better in our in vivo experiments (Fig. 1B, 1C). We agree with the reviewer that the -AS- dipeptide addition may not mimic N-terminal acetylation structurally but as per previous studies, it may stabilize the N-terminus of Tpm and allow normal head-to-tail dimer formation (Greenfield et al., 1994; Monteiro et al., 1994; Frye et al., 2010). We have discussed this in our new Discussion section (Lines 350-372). Since, the addition of -AS- dipeptide was referred to as "acetyl-mimic (am)" in a previous study (Alioto et al., 2016), we continued to use the same nomenclature in our study. Now as per your suggestions and to be more accurate, we have renamed "mNG-amTpm" constructs as "mNG-ASTpm" throughout the study to not confuse or claim that -AS- addition mimics acetylation. In any case, we have not seen any other ill effect of -AS- dipeptide introduction in addition to our 40 amino acid linker suggesting that it can also be considered part of the linker. Although, we agree with the reviewer that biochemical characterization of the effect of linker would be important to determine, we strongly believe that it is currently outside the scope of this study and should be taken up for future work with these proteins. Our study has majorly aimed to understand the functionality and utility of these mNG-Tpm fusion proteins for cell biological experiments in vivo, which was not done earlier in any other model system.

      My major issue however is making the conclusions stated here, using an amino-terminal fluorescent protein tag that s likely to impact any type of isoform selection at the end of the actin polymer. Carboxyl terminal tagging may have a reduced effect, but modifying the ends of the tropomyosin, which are integral in stabilising end to end interactions with itself on the actin filament, never mind any section systems that may/maynot be present in the cell, is not appropriate.

      Response: __ We agree with the reviewer that N-terminal tagging of tropomyosin may have effects on its function, but these constructs represent the only fluorescently tagged functional tropomyosin constructs available currently while C-terminal fusions are either non-functional (we were unable to construct strains with endogenous Tpm1 gene fused C-terminally to GFP) or do not localize clearly to actin structures (See __Figure R1 showing endogenous C-terminally tagged Tpm2-yeGFP that shows almost no localization to actin cables). To our knowledge, our study represents a first effort to understand the question of spatial sorting of Tpm isoforms, Tpm1 and Tpm2, in S. cerevisiae and any future developments with better visualization strategies for Tpm isoforms without compromising native N-terminal modifications and function will help improve our understanding of these proteins in vivo. We have also discussed these possibilities in our new Discussion section (Lines 391-396).

      Significance

      This paper explores the role of formin in determining the localisation of different tropomyosins to different actin polymers and cellular locations within budding yeast. Previous studies have indicated a role for the actin nucleating proteins in recruiting different forms of tropomyosin within fission yeast. In mammalian cells there is variation in the role of formins in affiecting tropomyosin localisation - variation between cell type. There is also evidence that other actin binding proteins, and tropomyosin abundance play roles in regulating the tropomyosin-actin association according to cell type. Biochemical studies have previously been undertaken using budding yeast and fission yeast that the core actin polymerisation domain of formins do not interact with tropomyosin directly. The significance of this study, given the above, and the concerns raised is not clear to this reviewer.

      Response: __Our study explores multiple facets of Tropomyosin (Tpm) biology. The lack of functional tagged Tpm has been a major bottleneck in understanding Tpm isoform diversity and function across eukaryotes. In our study, we characterize the first functional tagged Tpm proteins (Fig. 1, Fig. S1) and use them to answer long-standing questions about localization and spatial sorting of Tpm isoforms in the model organism S. cerevisiae (Fig. 2, Fig. 3, Fig. S2, Fig. S3). We also discover that the dual Tpm isoforms, Tpm1 and Tpm2, are functionally redundant for actin cable organization and function, while having gained divergent functions in Retrograde Actin Cable Flow (RACF) (Fig. 4, Fig. 5A-D, Fig. S4, Fig. S5, Fig. S6). We have now added new data on role of global Tpm levels controlling endocytosis via maintenance of normal linear-to-branched actin network homeostasis in S. cerevisiae (Fig. 5E-G)__. We respectfully differ with the reviewer on their assessment of our study and request the reviewer to read our revised manuscript which discusses the significance, limitations, and future perspectives of our study in detail.

      Reviewer #2

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      This manuscript by Dhar, Bagyashree, Palani and colleagues examines the function of the two tropomyosins, Tpm1 and Tpm2, in the budding yeast S. cerevisiae. Previous work had shown that deletion of tpm1 and tpm2 causes synthetic lethality, indicating overlapping function, but also proposed that the two tropomyosins have distinct functions, based on the observation that strong overexpression of Tpm2 causes defects in bud placement and fails to rescue tpm1∆ phenotypes (Drees et al, JCB 1995). The manuscript first describes very functional mNeonGreen tagged version of Tpm1 and Tpm2, where an alanine-serine dipeptide is inserted before the first methionine to mimic acetylation. It then proposes that the Tpm1 and Tpm2 exhibit indistinguishable localization and that low level overexpression (?) of Tpm2 can replace Tpm1 for stabilization of actin cables and cell polarization, suggesting almost completely redundant functions. They also propose on specific function of Tpm2 in regulating retrograde actin cable flow.

      Overall, the data are very clean, well presented and quantified, but in several places are not fully convincing of the claims. Because the claims that Tpm1 and Tpm2 have largely overlapping function and localization are in contradiction to previous publication in S. cerevisiae and also different from data published in other organisms, it is important to consolidate them. There are fairly simple experiments that should be done to consolidate the claims of indistinguishable localization, and levels of expression, for which the authors have excellent reagents at their disposal.

      1. Functionality of the acetyl-mimic tagged tropomyosin constructs: The overall very good functionality of the tagged Tpm constructs is convincing, but the authors should be more accurate in their description, as their data show that they are not perfectly functional. For instance, the use of "completely functional" in the discussion is excessive. In the results, the statement that mNG-Tpm1 expression restores normal growth (page 3, line 69) is inaccurate. Fig S1C shows that tpm1∆ cells expressing mNG-Tpm1 grow more slowly than WT cells. (The next part of the same sentence, stating it only partially restores length of actin cables should cite only Fig S1E, not S1F.) Similarly, the growth curve in Fig S1C suggests that mNG-amTpm1, while better than mNG-Tpm1 does not fully restore the growth defect observed in tpm1∆ (in contrast to what is stated on p. 4 line 81). A more stringent test of functionality would be to probe whether mNG-amTpm1 can rescue the synthetic lethality of the tpm1∆ tpm2∆ double mutant, which would also allow to test the functionality of mNG-amTpm2.

      __Response: __We would like to thank the reviewer for his feedback and suggestions. Based on the suggestions, we have now more accurately described the growth rescue observed by expression of mNG-ASTpm1 in Dtpm1 cells in the revised text. We have also removed the use of "completely functional" to describe mNG-Tpm functionality and corrected any errors in Figure citations in the revised manuscript.

      As per reviewers' suggestion, we have now tested rescue of synthetic lethality of Dtpm1Dtpm2 cells by expression of all mNG-Tpm variants and we find that all of them are capable of restoring the viability of Dtpm1Dtpm2 cells when expressed under their native promoters via a high-copy plasmid (pRS425) (Fig. S1E) but only mNG-Tpm1 and mNG-ASTpm1 restored viability of Dtpm1Dtpm2 cells when expressed under their native promoters via an integration plasmid (pRS305) (Fig. S1F). These results clearly suggest that while both mNG-Tpm1 and mNG-Tpm2 constructs are functional, Tpm1 tolerates the presence of the N-terminal fluorescent tag better than Tpm2. These observations now enhance our understanding of the functionality of these mNG-Tpm fusion proteins and will be a useful resource for their usage and experimental design in future studies in vivo.


      It would also be nice to comment on whether the mNG-amTpm constructs really mimicking acetylation. Given the Ala-Ser peptide ahead of the starting Met is linked N-terminally to mNG, it is not immediately clear it will have the same effect as a free acetyl group decorating the N-terminal Met.

      Response: __We agree with the reviewer's observation and for the sake of clarity and accuracy, we have now renamed "mNG-amTpm" with "mNG-ASTpm". The use of -AS- dipeptide is very routine in studies with Tpm (Alioto et al., 2016; Palani et al., 2019; Christensen et al., 2017) and its addition restores normal binding affinities to Tpm proteins purified from E. coli (Monteiro et al., 1994). We agree with the reviewer that the -AS- dipeptide addition may not mimic N-terminal acetylation structurally but as per previous studies, it may help neutralize the impact of a freely protonated Met on the alpha-helical structure and stabilize the N-terminus helix of Tpm and allow normal head-to-tail dimer formation (Monteiro et al., 1994; Frye et al., 2010; Greenfield et al., 1994). Consistent with this, we also observe a highly significant improvement in actin cable length when expressing mNG-ASTpm as compared to mNG-Tpm in Dtpm1 cells, suggesting an improvement in function probably due to increased binding affinity (Fig. 1B, 1C). We have also discussed this in our answer to Question 1 of Reviewer 1 and the revised manuscript (Lines 350-372)__.

      __ Localization of Tpm1 and Tpm2:__Given the claimed full functionality of mNG-amTpm constructs and the conclusion from this section of the paper that relative local concentrations may be the major factor in determining tropomyosin localization to actin filament networks, I am concerned that the analysis of localization was done in strains expressing the mNG-amTpm construct in addition to the endogenous untagged genes. (This is not expressly stated in the manuscript, but it is my understanding from reading the strain list.) This means that there is a roughly two-fold overexpression of either tropomyosin, which may affect localization. A comparison of localization in strains where the tagged copy is the sole Tpm1 (respectively Tpm2) source would be much more conclusive. This is important as the results are making a claim in opposition to previous work and observation in other organisms.

      Response: __We thank the reviewer for this observation and their suggestions. We agree that relative concentrations of functional Tpm1 and Tpm2 in cells may influence the extent of their localizations. As per the reviewer's suggestion, we have now conducted our quantitative analysis in cells lacking endogenous Tpm1 and only expressing mNG-ASTpm1 from an integrated plasmid copy at the leu2 locus and the data is presented in new __Figure S3. We compared Tpm-bound cable length (Fig. S3A, S3B) __and Tpm-bound cable number (Fig. S3A, S3C) along with actin cable length (Fig. S3D, S3E) and actin cable number (Fig. S3D, S3F) in wildtype, Dbnr1, and Dbni1 cells. Our analysis revealed that mNG-ASTpm1 localized to actin cable structures in wildtype, Dbnr1, and Dbni1 cells and the decrease observed in Tpm-bound cable length and number upon loss of either Bnr1 or Bni1, was accompanied by a corresponding decrease in actin cable length and number upon loss of either Bnr1 or Bni1. Thus, this analysis reached the same conclusion as our earlier analysis (Fig. 2) that mNG-ASTpm1 does not show preference between Bnr1 and Bni1-made actin cables. mNG-ASTpm2 did not restore functionality, when expressed as single integrated copy, in Dtpm1Dtpm2 cells (new results in __Fig. S1E, S1F, S5A) thus, we could not conduct a similar analysis for mNG-ASTpm2. This suggests that use of mNG-ASTpm2 would be more meaningful in the presence of endogenous Tpm2 as previously done in Fig. 2D-F.

      We have now also performed additional yeast mating experiments with cells lacking bnr1 gene and expressing either mNG-ASTpm1 or mNG-ASTpm2 and the data is shown in new Figure 3. From these observations, we observe that both mNG-ASTpm1 and mNG-ASTpm2 localize to the mating fusion focus in a Bnr1-independent manner (Fig. 3B, 3D) and suggests that they bind to Bni1-made actin cables that are involved in polarized growth of the mating projection. These results also add strength to our conclusion that Tpm1 and Tpm2 localize to actin cables irrespective of which formin nucleates them. Overall, these new results highlight and reiterate our model of formin-isoform independent binding of Tpm1 and Tpm2 in S. cerevisiae.

      In fact, although the authors conclude that the tropomyosins do not exhibit preference for certain actin structures, in the images shown in Fig 2A and 2D, there seems to be a clear bias for Tpm1 to decorate cables preferentially in the bud, while Tpm2 appears to decorate them more in the mother cell. Is that a bias of these chosen images, or does this reflect a more general trend? A quantification of relative fluorescence levels in bud/mother may be indicative.

      Response: __We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. Our data and analysis do not suggest that Tpm1 and Tpm2 show any preference for decoration of cables in either mother or bud compartment. As per the reviewer's suggestion, we have now quantified the ratio of mean mNG fluorescence in the bud to the mother (Bud/Mother) and the data is shown in __Figure. S2G. The bud-to-mother ratio was similar for mNG-ASTpm1 and mNG-ASTpm2 in wildtype cells, and the ratio increased in Dbnr1 cells and decreased in Dbni1 cells for both mNG-ASTpm1 and mNG-ASTpm2 (Fig. S2G). __This is consistent with the decreased actin cable signal in the mother compartment in Dbnr1 cells and decreased actin cable signal in the bud compartment in Dbni1 cells (Fig. S2A-D). Thus, our new analysis shows that both mNG-ASTpm1 and mNG-ASTpm2 have similar changes in their concentration (mean fluorescence) upon loss of either formins Bnr1 and Bni1 and show similar ratios in wildtype cells as well, suggesting no preference for binding to actin cables in either bud or mother compartment. The preference inferred by the reviewer seems to be a bias of the current representative images and thus, we have replaced the images in __Fig. 2A, 2D to more accurately represent the population.

      The difficulty in preserving mNG-amTpm after fixation means that authors could not quantify relative Tpm/actin cable directly in single fixed cells. Did they try to label actin cables with Lifeact instead of using phalloidin, and thus perform the analysis in live cells?

      __Response: __We did not use LifeAct for our analysis as LifeAct is known to cause expression-dependent artefacts in cells (Courtemanche et al., 2016; Flores et al., 2019; Xu and Du, 2021) and it also competes with proteins that regulate normal cable organization like cofilin. Use of LifeAct would necessitate standardization of expression to avoid such artefacts in vivo. Also, phalloidin staining provides the best staining of actin cables and allows for better quantitative results in our experiments. The use of LifeAct along with mNG-Tpm would also require optimization with a red fluorescent protein which usually tend to have lower brightness and photostability. However, during the revision of our study, a new study from Prof. Goode's lab has developed and optimized expression of new LifeAct-3xmNeonGreen constructs for use in S. cerevisiae (Wirshing and Goode, 2024). Thus, a similar strategy of using tandem copies of bright and photostable red fluorescent proteins can be explored for use in combination with mNG-Tpm in the future studies.

      __ Complementation of tpm1∆ by Tpm2:__

      I am confused about the quantification of Tpm2 expression by RT-PCR shown in Fig S3F. This figure shows that tpm2 mRNA expression levels are identical in cells with an empty plasmid or with a tpm2-encoding plasmid. In both strains (which lack tpm1), as well as in the WT control, one tpm2 copy is in the genome, but only one strain has a second tpm2 copy expressed from a centromeric plasmid, yet the results of the RT-PCR are not significantly different. (If anything, the levels are lower in the tpm2 plasmid-containing strain.) The methods state that the primers were chosen in the gene, so likely do not distinguish the genomic from the plasmid allele. However, the text claims a 1-fold increase in expression, and functional experiments show a near-complete rescue of the tpm1∆ phenotype. This is surprising and confusing and should be resolved to understand whether higher levels of Tpm2 are really the cause of the observed phenotypic rescue.

      The authors could for instance probe for protein levels. I believe they have specific nanobodies against tropomyosin. If not, they could use expression of functional mNG-amTpm2 to rescue tpm1∆. Here, the expression of the protein can be directly visualized.

      Response: __We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. We would like to clarify that in our RT-qPCR experiments, the primers were chosen within the Tpm1 and Tpm2 gene and do not distinguish between transcripts from endogenous or plasmid copy. We have now mentioned this in the Materials and Methods section of the revised manuscript. So, they represent a relative estimate of the total mRNA of these genes present in cells. We were consistently able to detect ~19 fold increase in Tpm2 total mRNA levels as compared to wildtype and ∆tpm1 cells (Fig. S4D) when tpm2 was expressed from a high-copy plasmid (pRS425). This increase in Tpm2 mRNA levels was accompanied by a rescue in growth (Fig. S4A) and actin cable organization (Fig. S4B) of ∆tpm1 cells containing pRS425-ptpm2TPM2. When tpm2 was expressed from a low-copy number centromeric plasmid (pRS316), we detected a ~2 fold increase in Tpm2 transcript levels when using the tpm1 promoter and no significant change was detected when using tpm2 promoter (Fig. S4E)__. We have made sure that these results are accurately described in the revised manuscript.

      As per the reviewer's suggestion, we have now conducted a more extensive analysis to ascertain the expression levels of Tpm2 in our experiments and the data is now presented in new Figure S5. We used mNG-ASTpm1 and mNG-ASTpm2 to rescue growth of ∆tpm1 (Fig. S5A) and correlated growth rescue with protein levels using quantified fluorescence intensity (Fig. S5B, S5C) and western blotting (anti-mNG) (Fig. S5D, S5E). We find that ∆tpm1 cells containing pRS425-ptpm1mNG-ASTpm1 had the highest protein level followed by pRS425-ptpm2 mNG-ASTpm2, pRS305-ptpm1mNG-ASTpm1, and the least protein levels were found in pRS305-ptpm2 mNG-ASTpm2 containing ∆tpm1 cells in both fluorescence intensity and western blotting quantifications (Fig. S5C, S5E). Surprisingly, we were not able to detect any protein levels in ∆tpm1 cells containing pRS305-ptpm2 mNG-ASTpm2 with western blotting (Fig. S5D) which was also accompanied by a lack of growth rescue (Fig. S5A). This most likely due to weak expression from the native Tpm2 promoter which is consistent with previous literature (Drees et al., 1995). Taken together, this data clearly shows that the rescue observed in ∆tpm1 cells is caused due to increased expression of mNG-ASTpm2 in cells and supports our conclusion that increase in Tpm2 expression leads to restoration of normal growth and actin cables in ∆tpm1 cells.

      __ Specific function of Tpm2:__

      The data about the retrograde actin flow is interpreted as a specific function of Tpm2, but there is no evidence that Tpm1 does not also share this function. To reach this conclusion one would have to investigate retrograde actin flow in tpm1∆ (difficult as cables are weak) or for instance test whether Tpm1 expression restores normal retrograde flow to tpm2∆ cells.

      Response: __We agree with the reviewer and as per the reviewer's suggestion, we have performed another experiment which include wildtype, ∆tpm2 cells containing empty pRS316 vector or pRS316-ptpm2TPM1 or pRS316-ptpm1TPM1. We find that RACF rate increased in ∆tpm2 cells as compared to wildtype and was restored to wildtype levels by exogenous expression of Tpm2 but not Tpm1 (Fig. S6E, S6F). Since, actin cables were not detectable in ∆tpm1 cells, we measured RACF rates in ∆tpm1 cells expressing Tpm1 or Tpm2 from a plasmid copy, which restored actin cables as shown previously in __Fig. 5A-C. We observed that RACF rates were similar to wildtype in ∆tpm1 cells expressing either Tpm1 or Tpm2 (Fig. S6E, S6F), suggesting that Tpm1 is not involved in RACF regulation. Taken together, these results suggest a specific role for Tpm2, but not Tpm1, in RACF regulation in S. cerevisiae, consistent with previous literature (Huckaba et al., 2006).

      Minor comments: __1.__The growth of tpm1∆ with empty plasmid in Fig S3A is strangely strong (different from other figures).

      Response: __ We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. We have now repeated the drop test multiple times (__Fig. R2), but we see similar growth rates as the drop test already presented in Fig. S4A. __At this point, it would be difficult to ascertain the basis of this difference observed at 23{degree sign}C and 30{degree sign}C, but a recent study that links leucine levels to actin cable stability (Sing et al., 2022) might explain the faster growth of these ∆tpm1 cells containing a leu2 gene carrying high-copy plasmid. However, there is no effect on growth rate at 37{degree sign}C which is consistent with other spot assays shown in __Fig. S1D, S4F, S5A.


      Significance

      I am a cell biologist with expertise in both yeast and actin cytoskeleton.

      The question of how tropomyosin localizes to specific actin networks is still open and a current avenue of study. Studies in other organisms have shown that different tropomyosin isoforms, or their acetylated vs non-acetylated versions, localize to distinct actin structures. Proposed mechanisms include competition with other ABPs and preference imposed by the formin nucleator. The current study re-examines the function and localization of the two tropomyosin proteins from the budding yeast and reaches the conclusion that they co-decorate all formin-assembled structures and also share most functions, leading to the simple conclusion that the more important contribution of Tpm1 is simply linked to its higher expression. Once consolidated, the study will appeal to researchers working on the actin cytoskeleton.

      We thank the reviewer for their positive assessment of our work and the constructive feedback that has greatly improved the quality of our study. After addressing the points raised by the reviewer, we believe that our study has significantly gained in consolidating the major conclusions of our work.

      **Referees cross-commenting**

      Having read the other reviewers' comments, I do agree with reviewer 1 that it is not clear whether the Ala-Ser linker really mimics acetylation. I am less convinced than reviewer 3 that the key conclusions of the study are well supported, notably the issue of Tpm2 expression levels is not convincing to me.

      Response: __We acknowledge the reviewer's point about the effect of Ala-Ser dipeptide and would request the reviewer to refer to our response to Reviewer 1 (Question 1) for a more detailed discussion on this. We have also extensively addressed the question of Tpm2 expression levels as suggested by the reviewer (new data in __Figure S5) which has further strengthened the conclusions of our study.

      __Reviewer #3 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      Summary:__ The study presents the first fully functional fluorescently tagged Tpm proteins, enabling detailed probing of Tpm isoform localization and functions in live cells. The authors created a modified fusion protein, mNG-amTpm, which mimicked native N-terminal acetylation and restored both normal growth and full-length actin cables in yeast cells lacking native Tpm proteins, demonstrating the constructs' full functionality. They also show that Tpm1 and Tpm2 do not have a preference for actin cables nucleated by different formins (Bnr1 and Bni1). Contrary to previous reports, the study found that overexpressing Tpm2 in Δtpm1 cells could restore growth rates and actin cable formation. Furthermore, it is shown that despite its evolutionary divergence, Tpm2 retains actin-protective functions and can compensate for the loss of Tpm1, contributing to cellular robustness.

      Major and Minor Comments: 1. The key conclusions of this paper are convincing. However, I suggest that more detail be provided regarding the image analysis used in this study. Specifically, since threshold settings can impact the quality of the generated data and, therefore, its interpretation, it would be useful to see a representative example of the quantification methods used for actin cable length/number (as in refs. 80 and 81) and mitochondria morphology. These could be presented as Supplemental Figures. Additionally, it would help to interpret the results if the authors could be more specific about the statistical tests that were used.

      Response: __We agree with the reviewer's suggestions and have now updated our Materials and Methods section to describe the image analysis pipelines used in more detail. We have also added examples of quantification procedure for actin cable length/number and mitochondrial morphology as an additional Supplementary __Figure S7. Briefly, the following pipelines were used:

      • Actin cable length and number analysis: This was done exactly as mentioned in McInally et al., 2021, McInally et al., 2022. Actin cables were manually traced in Fiji as shown in __ S7A__, and then the traces files for each cell were run through a Python script (adapted from McInally et al., 2022) that outputs mean actin cable length and number per cell.
      • Mitochondria morphology: Mitochondria Analyzer plug-in in Fiji was used to segment out the mitochondrial fragments. The parameters used for 2D segmentation of mitochondria were first optimized using "2D Threshold Optimize" to find the most accurate segmentation and then the same parameters were run on all images. After segmentation of the mitochondrial network, measurements of fragment number were done using "Analyze Particles" function in Fiji. An example of the overall process is shown in __ S7B.__ As per the reviewer's suggestion, we have now included the description of the statistical test used in the Figure Legends of each Figure in the revised manuscript. We have used One-Way Anova with Tukey's Multiple Comparison test, Kruskal-Wallis test with Dunn's Multiple Comparisons, and Unpaired Two-tailed t-test using the in-built functions in GraphPad Prism (v.6.04).

      **Referees cross-commenting**

      I agree with both reviewers 1 and 2 regarding the issues with the Ala-Ser acetylation mimic and Tpm2 expression levels, respectively. I think the authors should be more careful in how they frame the results, but I consider that these issues do not invalidate the main conclusions of this study.

      Response: __We acknowledge the reviewer's concern about the Ala-Ser dipeptide and would request them to refer our earlier discussion on this in response to Reviewer 1 (Question 1) and Reviewer 2 (Question 2). We would also request the reviewer to refer to our answer to Reviewer 2 (Question 6) where we have extensively addressed the question of Tpm2 expression levels and their effect on rescue of Dtpm1 cells. This data is now presented as new __Figure S5 in our revised manuscript.

      Reviewer#3 (Significance (Required)):

      The finding that Tpm2 can compensate for the loss of Tpm1, restoring actin cable organization and normal growth rates, challenges previous assumptions about the non-redundant functions of these isoforms in Saccharomyces cerevisiae (ref. 16). It also supports a concentration-dependent and formin-independent localization of Tpm isoforms to actin cables in this species. The development of fully functional fluorescently tagged Tpm proteins is a significant methodological advancement. This advancement overcomes previous visualization challenges and allows for accurate in vivo studies of Tpm function and regulation in S. cerevisiae.

      The findings will be of particular interest to researchers in the field of cellular and molecular biology who study actin cytoskeleton dynamics. Additionally, it will be relevant for those utilizing advanced microscopy and live-cell imaging techniques.

      As a researcher, my experience lies in cytoskeleton dynamics and protein interactions, though I do not have specific experience related to tropomyosin. I use different yeast species as models and routinely employ live-cell imaging as a tool.

      We thank the reviewer for their positive outlook and assessment of our study. We have incorporated all their suggestions, and we are confident that the revised manuscript has significantly improved in quality due to these additions.

    2. Note: This preprint has been reviewed by subject experts for Review Commons. Content has not been altered except for formatting.

      Learn more at Review Commons


      Referee #2

      Evidence, reproducibility and clarity

      This manuscript by Dhar, Bagyashree, Palani and colleagues examines the function of the two tropomyosins, Tpm1 and Tpm2, in the budding yeast S. cerevisiae. Previous work had shown that deletion of tpm1 and tpm2 causes synthetic lethality, indicating overlapping function, but also proposed that the two tropomyosins have distinct functions, based on the observation that strong overexpression of Tpm2 causes defects in bud placement and fails to rescue tpm1∆ phenotypes (Drees et al, JCB 1995). The manuscript first describes very functional mNeonGreen tagged version of Tpm1 and Tpm2, where an alanine-serine dipeptide is inserted before the first methionine to mimic acetylation. It then proposes that the Tpm1 and Tpm2 exhibit indistinguishable localization and that low level overexpression (?) of Tpm2 can replace Tpm1 for stabilization of actin cables and cell polarization, suggesting almost completely redundant functions. They also propose on specific function of Tpm2 in regulating retrograde actin cable flow.

      Overall, the data are very clean, well presented and quantified, but in several places are not fully convincing of the claims. Because the claims that Tpm1 and Tpm2 have largely overlapping function and localization are in contradiction to previous publication in S. cerevisiae and also different from data published in other organisms, it is important to consolidate them. There are fairly simple experiments that should be done to consolidate the claims of indistinguishable localization, and levels of expression, for which the authors have excellent reagents at their disposal.

      Functionality of the acetyl-mimic tagged tropomyosin constructs:

      The overall very good functionality of the tagged Tpm constructs is convincing, but the authors should be more accurate in their description, as their data show that they are not perfectly functional. For instance, the use of "completely functional" in the discussion is excessive. In the results, the statement that mNG-Tpm1 expression restores normal growth (page 3, line 69) is inaccurate. Fig S1C shows that tpm1∆ cells expressing mNG-Tpm1 grow more slowly than WT cells. (The next part of the same sentence, stating it only partially restores length of actin cables should cite only Fig S1E, not S1F.) Similarly, the growth curve in Fig S1C suggests that mNG-amTpm1, while better than mNG-Tpm1 does not fully restore the growth defect observed in tpm1∆ (in contrast to what is stated on p. 4 line 81). A more stringent test of functionality would be to probe whether mNG-amTpm1 can rescue the synthetic lethality of the tpm1∆ tpm2∆ double mutant, which would also allow to test the functionality of mNG-amTpm2.

      It would also be nice to comment on whether the mNG-amTpm constructs really mimicking acetylation. Given the Ala-Ser peptide ahead of the starting Met is linked N-terminally to mNG, it is not immediately clear it will have the same effect as a free acetyl group decorating the N-terminal Met.

      Localization of Tpm1 and Tpm2:

      Given the claimed full functionality of mNG-amTpm constructs and the conclusion from this section of the paper that relative local concentrations may be the major factor in determining tropomyosin localization to actin filament networks, I am concerned that the analysis of localization was done in strains expressing the mNG-amTpm construct in addition to the endogenous untagged genes. (This is not expressly stated in the manuscript, but it is my understanding from reading the strain list.) This means that there is a roughly two-fold overexpression of either tropomyosin, which may affect localization. A comparison of localization in strains where the tagged copy is the sole Tpm1 (respectively Tpm2) source would be much more conclusive. This is important as the results are making a claim in opposition to previous work and observation in other organisms.

      In fact, although the authors conclude that the tropomyosins do not exhibit preference for certain actin structures, in the images shown in Fig 2A and 2D, there seems to be a clear bias for Tpm1 to decorate cables preferentially in the bud, while Tpm2 appears to decorate them more in the mother cell. Is that a bias of these chosen images, or does this reflect a more general trend? A quantification of relative fluorescence levels in bud/mother may be indicative.

      The difficulty in preserving mNG-amTpm after fixation means that authors could not quantify relative Tpm/actin cable directly in single fixed cells. Did they try to label actin cables with Lifeact instead of using phalloidin, and thus perform the analysis in live cells?

      Complementation of tpm1∆ by Tpm2:

      I am confused about the quantification of Tpm2 expression by RT-PCR shown in Fig S3F. This figure shows that tpm2 mRNA expression levels are identical in cells with an empty plasmid or with a tpm2-encoding plasmid. In both strains (which lack tpm1), as well as in the WT control, one tpm2 copy is in the genome, but only one strain has a second tpm2 copy expressed from a centromeric plasmid, yet the results of the RT-PCR are not significantly different. (If anything, the levels are lower in the tpm2 plasmid-containing strain.) The methods state that the primers were chosen in the gene, so likely do not distinguish the genomic from the plasmid allele. However, the text claims a 1-fold increase in expression, and functional experiments show a near-complete rescue of the tpm1∆ phenotype. This is surprising and confusing and should be resolved to understand whether higher levels of Tpm2 are really the cause of the observed phenotypic rescue. The authors could for instance probe for protein levels. I believe they have specific nanobodies against tropomyosin. If not, they could use expression of functional mNG-amTpm2 to rescue tpm1∆. Here, the expression of the protein can be directly visualized.

      Specific function of Tpm2:

      The data about the retrograde actin flow is interpreted as a specific function of Tpm2, but there is no evidence that Tpm1 does not also share this function. To reach this conclusion one would have to investigate retrograde actin flow in tpm1∆ (difficult as cables are weak) or for instance test whether Tpm1 expression restores normal retrograde flow to tpm2∆ cells.

      Minor comments:

      The growth of tpm1∆ with empty plasmid in Fig S3A is strangely strong (different from other figures).

      Referees cross-commenting

      Having read the other reviewers' comments, I do agree with reviewer 1 that it is not clear whether the Ala-Ser linker really mimics acetylation. I am less convinced than reviewer 3 that the key conclusions of the study are well supported, notably the issue of Tpm2 expression levels is not convincing to me.

      Significance

      I am a cell biologist with expertise in both yeast and actin cytoskeleton.

      The question of how tropomyosin localizes to specific actin networks is still open and a current avenue of study. Studies in other organisms have shown that different tropomyosin isoforms, or their acetylated vs non-acetylated versions, localize to distinct actin structures. Proposed mechanisms include competition with other ABPs and preference imposed by the formin nucleator. The current study re-examines the function and localization of the two tropomyosin proteins from the budding yeast and reaches the conclusion that they co-decorate all formin-assembled structures and also share most functions, leading to the simple conclusion that the more important contribution of Tpm1 is simply linked to its higher expression. Once consolidated, the study will appeal to researchers working on the actin cytoskeleton.

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the original reviews.

      eLife Assessment

      The work is important and of potential value to areas other than the bone field because it supports a role and mechanism for beta-catenin that is novel and unusual. The findings are significant in that they support the presence of another anabolic pathway in bone that can be productively targeted for therapeutic goals. The data for the most part are convincing. The work could be strengthened by better characterizing the osteoclast KO of Malat1 related to the Lys cre model and by including biochemical markers of bone turnover from the mice.

      We thank the editors and reviewers for their time and their positive and insightful comments. We are pleased that the editors and reviewers were very enthusiastic, as stated in their Strength comments. We have performed experiments and addressed all of the points raised by the reviewers. We have revised the manuscript accordingly and the reviewers’ points are specifically addressed below. 

      Public Reviews:

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      Summary

      The authors were trying to discover a novel bone remodeling network system. They found that an IncRNA Malat1 plays a central role in the remodeling by binding to β-catenin and functioning through the β-catenin-OPG/Jagged1 pathway in osteoblasts and chondrocytes. In addition, Malat1 significantly promotes bone regeneration in fracture healing in vivo. Their findings suggest a new concept of Malat1 function in the skeletal system. One significantly different finding between this manuscript and the competing paper pertains to the role of Malat1 in osteoclast lineage, specifically, whether Malat1 functions intrinsically in osteoclast lineage or not.

      Strengths:

      This study provides strong genetic evidence demonstrating that Malat1 acts intrinsically in osteoblasts while suppressing osteoclastogenesis in a non-autonomous manner, whereas the other group did not utilize relevant conditional knockout mice. As shown in the results, Malat1 knockout mouse exhibited abnormal bone remodeling and turnover. Furthermore, they elucidated molecular function of Malat1, which is sufficient to understand the phenotype in vivo.

      We are grateful to the reviewer for highlighting the novelty, strengths and significance of our work.

      Weaknesses:

      Discussing differences between previous paper and their status would be highly informative and beneficial for the field, as it would elucidate the solid underlying mechanisms.

      These points have been fully addressed in the point-to-point response below.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      The authors investigated the roles of IncRNA Malat1 in bone homeostasis which was initially believed to be non-functional for physiology. They found that both Malat1 KO and conditional KO in osteoblast lineage exhibit significant osteoporosis due to decreased osteoblast bone formation and increased osteoclast resorption. More interestingly they found that deletion of Malat1 in osteoclast lineage cells does not affect osteoclast differentiation and function. Mechanistically, they found that Malat1 acts as a co-activator of b-Catenin directly regulating osteoblast activity and indirectly regulating osteoclast activity via mediating OPG, but not RANKL expression in osteoblast and chondrocyte. Their discoveries establish a previously unrecognized paradigm model of Malat1 function in the skeletal system, providing novel mechanistic insights into how a lncRNA integrates cellular crosstalk and molecular networks to fine-tune tissue homeostasis, and remodeling.

      Strengths:

      The authors generated global and conditional KO mice in osteoblast and osteoclast lineage cells and carefully analyzed the role of Matat1 with both in vivo and in vitro systems. The conclusion of this paper is mostly well supported by data.

      We are grateful to the reviewer for highlighting the novelty, strengths and significance of our work.

      Weaknesses:

      More objective biological and biochemical analyses are required.

      These points have been fully addressed in the point-to-point response below.

      Reviewer #3 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      In this manuscript, Qin and colleagues study the role of Malat1 in bone biology. This topic is interesting given the role of lncRNAs in multiple physiologic processes. A previous study (PMID 38493144) suggested a role for Malat1 in osteoclast maturation. However, the role of this lncRNA in osteoblast biology was previously not explored. Here, the authors note osteopenia with increased bone resorption in mice lacking Malat1 globally and in osteoblast lineage cells. At the mechanistic level, the authors suggest that Malat1 controls beta-catenin activity. These results advance the field regarding the role of this lncRNA in bone biology.

      Strengths:

      The manuscript is well-written and data are presented in a clear and easily understandable manner. The bone phenotype of osteoblast-specific Malat1 knockout mice is of high interest. The role of Malat1 in controlling beta-catenin activity and OPG expression is interesting and novel.

      We are grateful to the reviewer for highlighting the novelty, strengths and significance of our work.

      Weaknesses:

      The lack of a bone phenotype when Malat1 is deleted with LysM-Cre is of interest given the previous report suggesting a role for this lncRNA in osteoclasts. However, to interpret the findings here, the authors should investigate the deletion efficiency of Malat1 in osteoclast lineage cells in their model. The data in the fracture model in Figure 8 seems incomplete in the absence of a more complete characterization of callus histology and a thorough time course. The role of Malat1 and OPG in chondrocytes is unclear since the osteocalcin-Cre mice (which should retain normal Malat1 levels in chondrocytes) have similar bone loss as the global mutants.

      These points have been fully addressed in the point-to-point response below.

      Recommendations for the authors:

      Reviewing Editor (Recommendations For The Authors):

      There are several suggestions for improving the manuscript, and we hope that you will review the recommendations carefully and make changes to the paper to address the concerns raised. Suggestions have been made to better characterize the osteoclast KO of Malat1 related to the Lys cre model as well as suggestions to include biochemical markers of bone turnover from your mice.

      These points have been fully addressed in the point-to-point response below.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Replicate numbers in Figure 3 should be noted.

      We thank the reviewer for this point. The experiments in Fig. 3 have been replicated three times, which is now noted in the figure legend.

      (2) It is novel to identify OPG expression in chondrocytes. More discussion is expected.

      Yes, a paragraph regarding this point has been added to the Discussion section.  

      Reviewer #2 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) It is better to show serum osteoblast bone formation marker and osteoclast resorption marker, such as P1NP and CTx, in both Malat1 KO and osteoblast conditional KO mice.

      We thank the reviewer for this important point. Since CTx values are often influenced by food intake, we measured serum TRAP levels, which also reflect changes in osteoclastic bone resorption. We have observed that the serum osteoblastic bone formation marker P1NP was decreased, while osteoclastic bone resorption marker TRAP was increased, in both Malat1<sup>-/-</sup> and Malat1<sup>ΔOcn</sup> mice. These changes in serum biochemical markers of bone turnover are consistent with the bone phenotype caused by Malat1 deficiency. The new data are shown in Fig.1i, Fig. 2e, and Fig.5b.    

      (2) in vitro osteoblast differentiation assay is required to further confirm Malat1 regulates osteoblast differentiation.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. As recommended, we have performed in vitro osteoblast differentiation multiple times using calvarial cells, a commonly used system in the field. However, we observed big variability in the culture results across different experimental batches, whether conducted by different scientists or the same individual. This variability is likely due to differences in the purity of the cultured cells, as literature shows that the current culture system in the field contains a mixture of tissue cells, including not only osteoblasts but also other cells, such as stromal and hematopoietic lineage cells (DOI: 10.1002/jbmr.4052). We hope to test osteoblast differentiation using a purer culture system once it becomes available in the field. In contrast, our in vivo data, indicated by multiple parameters, show consistent osteoblast and bone formation phenotypes across a large number of mice. Therefore, the in vivo results in our study strongly support our conclusion regarding Malat1's role in osteoblastic bone formation.

      (3) The authors found that Matat1 regulates osteoclast activity through OPG expression not only in osteoblasts, but also in chondrocytes and concluded that chondrocyte is involved in the crosstalk with osteoclast lineage cells in marrow. This is a very novel finding. Do the authors have any in vivo data to support this point, such as deleting Malat1 in chondrocyte lineage cells with chondrocyte-specific Cre?

      We appreciate the reviewer for highlighting our novel findings and providing valuable suggestions. Given the considerable time required to generate chondrocyte-specific conditional KO mice, we plan to thoroughly investigate the crosstalk between chondrocytes and osteoclasts via Malat1 in vivo in our next project.

      Reviewer #3 (Recommendations For The Authors):

      (1) Ideally would show male and female data side by side in the main text figures

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. The male and female data are now displayed side by side in Fig. 1b. 

      (2) The sample size for the in vivo datasets is quite large. A power calculation should be provided to better understand how the authors decided to analyze so many mice.

      Due to staff turnover during the pandemic, the first authors and several co-authors were involved in breeding the mice and collecting and analyzing bone samples. To avoid bias in sample selection, we pooled all the samples, resulting in a highly consistent phenotype across mice. This robust approach further strengthens our conclusion. 

      (3) The candidate gene approach to look at beta-catenin is a bit random, it would be ideal to assess Malat1 binding proteins in osteoblasts in an unbiased way. Also, does Malat1 bind bcatenin in other cell types? The importance of this point is further underscored by ref 47 which indicates that Malat binds TEAD3.

      As β-catenin is a key regulator in osteoblasts, we believe that studying the interaction between β-catenin and Malat1 is not random. Instead, this approach is well-founded and based on established knowledge in the field (as discussed below). In parallel, we are investigating genome-wide Malat1-bound targets beyond β-catenin, which will be reported in future studies. 

      More detailed points have been discussed in the manuscript: 

      Given that we identified Malat1 as a critical regulator in osteoblasts, we sought to investigate the mechanisms underlying the regulation of osteoblastic bone formation by Malat1. β-catenin is a central transcriptional factor in canonical Wnt signaling pathway, and plays an important role in positively regulating osteoblast differentiation and function (28-33). Upon stimulation, most notably from canonical Wnt ligands, β-catenin is stabilized and translocates into the nucleus, where it interacts with coactivators to activate target gene transcription. Previous reports observed a link between Malat1 and β-catenin signaling pathway in cancers (34,35), but the underlying molecular mechanisms in terms of how Malat1 interacts with β-catenin and regulates its nuclear retention and transcriptional activity are unclear. 

      Ref47 tested Malat1 binding to Tead3 in osteoclasts. However, a key difference between our findings and those of Ref47 is that both our in vitro and in vivo data, using myeloid osteoclastspecific conditional Malat1 KO mice, do not support an intrinsically significant role for Malat1 in osteoclasts. 

      (4) The statement on page 6 concluding that Malat acts as a scaffold to tether β-catenin in the nucleus is not supported by data in Fig 3d demonstrating that b-catenin nucleus translocation in response to Wnt3a is similar in control and Malat-deficient cells.

      The experiment in Fig. 3d is not designed to demonstrate Malat1 and β-catenin binding, but it is essential as the result rules out the possibility that Malat1 may affect β-catenin nuclear translocation. Moreover, we have utilized two robust approaches, CHIRP and RIP, to demonstrate that Malat1 acts as a scaffold to tether β-catenin in the nucleus (Fig. 3a, b, c, Supplementary Fig. 3). 

      (5) Figure 4e: can the authors show Malat deletion efficiency in the LysM-Cre model? This is important in light of the negative data in this figure and ref 47 which claims an osteoclast intrinsic role for Malat

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. The deletion efficiency of Malat1 in the LysM-Cre mice is very high (>90%). This data is now presented in Fig. 4e. 

      (6) Figure 5: since the magnitude of the effects on osteoclasts at the histology level are mild, it would be nice to also look at serum markers of bone resorption (CTX)

      The magnitude of osteoclast changes at the histological level in Fig. 5 is not mild in our view, as we observe 25-30% changes with statistical significance in the osteoclast parameters of Malat1ΔOcn mice. Since CTx values are often influenced by food intake, we measured serum TRAP levels, which reflect changes in osteoclastic bone resorption. As shown in Fig.5b, serum TRAP levels are significantly elevated in Malat1<sup>ΔOcn</sup> mice compared to control mice.

      (7) Data showing chondrocytic expression of OPG is not as novel as the authors claim. Should think about growth plate versus articular sources of OPG. Growth plate chondrocytes express OPG to regulate osteoclasts in the primary spongiosa which resorb mineralized cartilage.

      In the present study, we do not focus on comparing the sources of OPG from the chondrocytes in the growth plate versus articular cartilage. The novelty of our work lies in the discovery that Malat1 links chondrocyte and osteoclast activities through the β-catenin-OPG/Jagged1 axis. This Malat1-β-catenin-OPG/Jagged1 axis represents a novel mechanism regulating the crosstalk between chondrocytes and osteoclasts. 

      (8) The relevance of the chondrocyte role of Malat is unclear since the bone phenotype in global and osteocalcin-Cre mice is similar.

      Bone mass was decreased by 20% in Malat1<sup>ΔOcn</sup> mice, while a 30% reduction was observed in global KO (Malat1<sup>-/-</sup>) mice. This difference indicates potential contributions from other cell types, such as chondrocytes, and our results in Fig. 6 further support the impact of chondrocytes in Malat1's regulation of bone mass. We plan to thoroughly investigate the crosstalk between chondrocytes and osteoclasts via Malat1 in vivo in our next project.

      (9) Fracture data in Figure 8 seems incomplete, it would be ideal to support micro CT with histology and look at multiple time points.

      We thank the reviewer for this suggestion. We have performed histological analysis of our samples, and found that Malat1 promotes bone healing in the fracture model (Fig. 8f), which is consistent with our μCT data.

    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      Summary:

      SUFU modulates Sonic hedgehog (SHH) signaling and is frequently mutated in the B-subtype of SHH driven medulloblastoma. The B-subtype occurs mostly in infants, is often metastatic, and lacks specific treatment. Yabut et al. found Fgf5 was highly expressed in the B-subtype of SHH driven medulloblastoma by examining a published microarray expression dataset. They then investigated how Fgf5 functions in the cerebellum of mice that have embryonic Sufu loss of function. This loss was induced using the hGFAP-cre transgene, which is expressed multiple cell types in the developing cerebellum, including granule neuron precursors (GNPs) derived from the rhombic lip. By measuring the area of Pax6+ cells in the external granule cell layer (EGL) of Sufu-cKO mice at postnatal day 0, they find Pax6+ cells occupy a larger area in the posterior lobe adjacent to the secondary fissure, which is poorly defined. They show that Fgf5 RNA and phosphoErk1/2 immunostaining are also higher in the same disrupted region. Some of the phosphoErk1/2+ cells are proliferative in the Sufu-cKO. Western blot analysis of Gli proteins that modulate SHH signaling found reduced expression and absence of Gli1 activity in the region of cerebellar dysgenesis in Sufu-cKO mice. This suggests the GNP expansion in this region is independent of SHH signaling. Amazingly, intraventricular injection of the FGFR1-2 antagonist AZD4547 from P0-4 and examined histologoically at P7 found the treatment restored cytoarchitecture in the cerebella of Sufu-cKO mice. This is further supported by NeuN immunostaining in the internal granule cell layer, which labels mature, non-diving neurons, and KI67 immunostaining, indicating dividing cells, and primarily found in the EGL. The mice were treated beginning at a timepoint when cerebellar cytoarchitecture was shown to be disrupted and it is indistinguishable from control following treatment. Fig.3 presents the most convincing and exciting data in this manuscript.

      Sufu-cKO do not readily develop cerebellar tumors. The authors detected phosphorylated H2AX immunostaining, which labels double strand breaks, was in some cells in the EGL in regions of cerebellar dysgenesis in the Sufu-cKO, as was cleaved Caspase 3, a marker of apoptosis. P53, downstream of the double strand break pathway, protein was reduced in Sufu-cKO cerebellum. Genetically removing p53 from the Sufu-cKO cerebellum resulted in cerebellar tumors in 2 mo mice. The Sufu;p53-dKO cerebella at P0 lacked clear foliation, and the secondary fissure, even more so than the Sufu-cKO. Fgf5 RNA and signaling (pERK1/2) were also expressed ectopically.

      In the revised manuscript, additional details have been added to clarify statistical analyses and to state limitations of the reported results in the absence of further experimental analyses.

    1. Chapter 5: Hypothesis Testing and Statistical Inference The null hypothesis is typically a statement of the values that the researcher does not expect. Null hypothesis (the values you do not expect) The alternative hypothesis is typically a statement of the values that the research expects. Alternative hypothesis (the values you expect) Two-sided test in which the alternative hypothesis has values on both sides of the null hypothesis. Type I and Type II Errors Type I error = sending an innocent defendant to jail Type II error = freeing a guilty defendant A decision rule is a method of deciding whether to reject a null hypothesis. A critical value is a value that divides the “acceptance” region from the rejection region when testing a null hypothesis. Assumption of normality of the error term: the error term should follow a normal distribution. This assumption is optional but is commonly invoked for hypothesis testing purposes. When the error term is normally distributed, it facilitates the use of t-tests and F-tests, which rely on the normality of the sampling distribution of the estimators. This assumption is especially relevant in small samples, where the central limit theorem may not apply sufficiently to approximate a normal distribution. The t-Test The t-test is used to test hypotheses about individual regression slope coefficient. The larger the absolute value this t-value is, the greater the likelihood that the estimated regression coefficient is different from zero. A critical t-value is the value that distinguishes the “acceptance” region from the rejection region. You reject the null hypothesis if the calculated t-value is greater in absolute value than the critical t-value and if the calculated t-value has the sign implied by . Reject also has the sign implied by / do not reject otherwise. The level of significance indicates the probability of observing an estimated t-value greater than the critical t-value if the null hypothesis were correct. The most common use of the one-sided t-test is to determine whether a regression coefficient is significantly different from zero in the direction predicted by theory. The four steps to use when working with the t-test are: 1. Set up the null and alternative hypotheses. 2. Choose a level of significance and therefore a critical t-value. 3. Run the regression and obtain an estimated t-value (or t-score). 4. Apply the decision rule by comparing the calculated t-value with the critical t-value in order to reject or not reject the null hypothesis. Week 2 15 The P-Values A p-value, or marginal significance level, for a t-score, is the probability of observing a t-score that size or larger (in absolute value) if the null hypothesis were true. A p-value is a probability, so it runs from 0 to 1. A small p-value casts doubt on the null hypothesis, so to reject a null hypothesis we need a low p-value. Reject 𝐻0"𝑖𝑓"𝑝" −" 𝑣𝑎𝑙𝑢𝑒𝑘"<"the level of significance and if 𝛽J" has the sign implied by 𝐻𝐴. Do not reject 𝐻0"otherwise.

      Al gehad bij statistiek, even herhalen en oefenen

  2. ontheroadtotheroad7.wordpress.com ontheroadtotheroad7.wordpress.com
    1. bad guys

      "In the world of The Road , there is a simple rule for distinguishing the good guys from the bad guys. Bad guys eat people; good guys don't. This is what remains of the Categorical Imperative: don't treat people as mere food. While this is the most obvious principle to which good guys are committed, it is not the only one. It is possible to discern in The Road a Code of the Good Guys, a set of principles to which good guys are committed. That Code includes the following rules:

      1. Don't eat people.
      2. Don't steal.
      3. Don't lie.
      4. Keep your promises.
      5. Help others.
      6. Never give up.

      The man tries to teach these principles to the child and he tries to follow them himself. Throughout the novel we witness the man's struggle to be a good guy, to do what is right in a world in which most people seem to have abandoned morality altogether." (Wielenberg 5-6).

      https://www.jstor.org/stable/42909407

      "Every social institution and convention that could serve as a hallmark of civilization has passed so far into oblivion that, as Ashley Kunsa argues, the names of places, road, and people have passed into meaninglessness, leaving only the deeds of individuals to providing meaning and morality to the world (61–63). The most important dividing line for the boy is the assurance from his father that they will not eat people." (Dominy 146).

      https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.5325/cormmccaj.13.1.0143

      More on Worldview here: https://ontheroadtotheroad7.wordpress.com/2024/11/26/worldview/

    1. Author response:

      The following is the authors’ response to the previous reviews.

      Reviewer #1 (Public Review):

      In this revision, the authors significantly improved the manuscript. They now address some of my concerns. Specifically, they show the contribution of end-effects on spreading the inputs between dendrites. This analysis reveals greater applicability of their findings to cortical cells, with long, unbranching dendrites than other neuronal types, such as Purkinje cells in the cerebellum.

      They now explain better the interactions between calcium and voltage signals, which I believe improve the take-away message of their manuscript. They modified and added new figures that helped to provide more information about their simulations.

      However, some of my points remain valid. Figure 6 shows depolarization of ~5mV from -75. This weak depolarization would not effectively recruit nonlinear activation of NMDARs. In their paper, Branco and Hausser (2010) showed depolarizations of ~10-15mV.

      More importantly, the signature of NMDAR activation is the prolonged plateau potential and activation at more depolarized resting membrane potentials (their Figure 4). Thus, despite including NMDARs in the simulation, the authors do not model functional recruitment of these channels. Their simulation is thus equivalent to AMPA only drive, which can indeed summate somewhat nonlinearly.

      In the current study, we used short sequences of 5 inputs, since the convergence of longer sequences is extremely unlikely in the network configurations we have examined. This resulted in smaller EPSP amplitudes of ~5mV (Figure 6 - Supplement 2A, B). Longer sequences containing 9 inputs resulted in larger somatic depolarizations of ~10mV (Figure 6 - Supplement 2E, F). Although we had modified the (Branco, Clark, and Häusser 2010) model to remove the jitter in the timing of arrival of inputs and made slight modifications to the location of stimulus delivery on the dendrite, we saw similar amplitudes when we tested a 9-length sequence using (Branco, Clark, and Häusser 2010)’s published code (Figure 6 - Supplement 2I, J). In all the cases we tested (5 input sequence, 9 input sequence, 9 input sequence with (Branco, Clark, and Häusser 2010) code repository), removal of NMDA synapses lowered both the somatic EPSPs (Figure 6 - Supplement 2C,D,G,H,K,L) as well as the selectivity (measured as the difference between the EPSPs generated for inward and outward stimulus delivery) (Figure 6 Supplement 2M,N,O). Further, monitoring the voltage along the dendrite for a sequence of 5 inputs showed dendritic EPSPs in the range of 20-45 mV (Figure 6 - Supplement 2P, Q), which came down notably (10-25mV) when NMDA synapses were abolished (Figure 6 - Supplement 2R, S). Thus, even sequences containing as few as 5 inputs were capable of engaging the NMDA-mediated nonlinearity to show sequence selectivity, although the selectivity was not as strong as in the case of 9 inputs.

      Reviewer #1 (Recommendations for the authors):

      Minor points:

      Figure 8, what does the scale in A represent? I assume it is voltage, but there are no units. Figure 8, C, E, G, these are unconventional units for synaptic weights, usually, these are given in nS / per input.

      We have corrected these. The scalebar in 8A represents membrane potential in mV. The units of 8C,E,G are now in nS.

      Reviewer #2 (Public Review):

      Summary:

      If synaptic input is functionally clustered on dendrites, nonlinear integration could increase the computational power of neural networks. But this requires the right synapses to be located in the right places. This paper aims to address the question of whether such synaptic arrangements could arise by chance (i.e. without special rules for axon guidance or structural plasticity), and could therefore be exploited even in randomly connected networks. This is important, particularly for the dendrites and biological computation communities, where there is a pressing need to integrate decades of work at the single-neuron level with contemporary ideas about network function.

      Using an abstract model where ensembles of neurons project randomly to a postsynaptic population, back-of-envelope calculations are presented that predict the probability of finding clustered synapses and spatiotemporal sequences. Using data-constrained parameters, the authors conclude that clustering and sequences are indeed likely to occur by chance (for large enough ensembles), but require strong dendritic nonlinearities and low background noise to be useful.

      Strengths:

      (1) The back-of-envelope reasoning presented can provide fast and valuable intuition. The authors have also made the effort to connect the model parameters with measured values. Even an approximate understanding of cluster probability can direct theory and experiments towards promising directions, or away from lost causes.

      (2) I found the general approach to be refreshingly transparent and objective. Assumptions are stated clearly about the model and statistics of different circuits. Along with some positive results, many of the computed cluster probabilities are vanishingly small, and noise is found to be quite detrimental in several cases. This is important to know, and I was happy to see the authors take a balanced look at conditions that help/hinder clustering, rather than to just focus on a particular regime that works.

      (3) This paper is also a timely reminder that synaptic clusters and sequences can exist on multiple spatial and temporal scales. The authors present results pertaining to the standard `electrical' regime (~50-100 µm, <50 ms), as well as two modes of chemical signaling (~10 µm, 100-1000 ms). The senior author is indeed an authority on the latter, and the simulations in Figure 5, extending those from Bhalla (2017), are unique in this area. In my view, the role of chemical signaling in neural computation is understudied theoretically, but research will be increasingly important as experimental technologies continue to develop.

      Weaknesses:

      (1) The paper is mostly let down by the presentation. In the current form, some patience is needed to grasp the main questions and results, and it is hard to keep track of the many abbreviations and definitions. A paper like this can be impactful, but the writing needs to be crisp, and the logic of the derivation accessible to non-experts. See, for instance, Stepanyants, Hof & Chklovskii (2002) for a relevant example.

      It would be good to see a restructure that communicates the main points clearly and concisely, perhaps leaving other observations to an optional appendix. For the interested but time-pressed reader, I recommend starting with the last paragraph of the introduction, working through the main derivation on page 7, and writing out the full expression with key parameters exposed. Next, look at Table 1 and Figure 2J to see where different circuits and mechanisms fit in this scheme. Beyond this, the sequence derivation on page 15 and biophysical simulations in Figures 5 and 6 are also highlights.

      We appreciate the reviewers' suggestions. We have tightened the flow of the introduction. We understand that the abbreviations and definitions are challenging and have therefore provided intuitions and summaries of the equations discussed in the main text.

      Clusters calculations

      Our approach is to ask how likely it is that a given set of inputs lands on a short segment of dendrite, and then scale it up to all segments on the entire dendritic length of the cell.

      Thus, the probability of occurrence of groups that receive connections from each of the M ensembles (PcFMG) is a function of the connection probability (p) between the two layers, the number of neurons in an ensemble (N), the relative zone-length with respect to the total dendritic arbor (Z/L) and the number of ensembles (M).

      Sequence calculations

      Here we estimate the likelihood of the first ensemble input arriving anywhere on the dendrite, and ask how likely it is that succeeding inputs of the sequence would arrive within a set spacing.

      Thus, the probability of occurrence of sequences that receive sequential connections (PcPOSS) from each of the M ensembles is a function of the connection probability (p) between the two layers, the number of neurons in an ensemble (N), the relative window size with respect to the total dendritic arbor (Δ/L) and the number of ensembles (M).

      (2) I wonder if the authors are being overly conservative at times. The result highlighted in the abstract is that 10/100000 postsynaptic neurons are expected to exhibit synaptic clustering. This seems like a very small number, especially if circuits are to rely on such a mechanism. However, this figure assumes the convergence of 3-5 distinct ensembles. Convergence of inputs from just 2 ense mbles would be much more prevalent, but still advantageous computationally. There has been excitement in the field about experiments showing the clustering of synapses encoding even a single feature.

      We agree that short clusters of two inputs would be far more likely. We focused our analysis on clusters with three of more ensembles because of the following reasons:

      (1) The signal to noise in these clusters was very poor as the likelihood of noise clusters is high.

      (2) It is difficult to trigger nonlinearities with very few synaptic inputs.

      (3) At the ensemble sizes we considered (100 for clusters, 1000 for sequences), clusters arising from just two ensembles would result in high probability of occurrence on all neurons in a network (~50% in cortex, see p_CMFG in figures below.). These dense neural representations make it difficult for downstream networks to decode (Foldiak 2003).

      However, in the presence of ensembles containing fewer neurons or when the connection probability between the layers is low, short clusters can result in sparse representations (Figure 2 - Supplement 2). Arguments 1 and 2 hold for short sequences as well.

      (3) The analysis supporting the claim that strong nonlinearities are needed for cluster/sequence detection is unconvincing. In the analysis, different synapse distributions on a single long dendrite are convolved with a sigmoid function and then the sum is taken to reflect the somatic response. In reality, dendritic nonlinearities influence the soma in a complex and dynamic manner. It may be that the abstract approach the authors use captures some of this, but it needs to be validated with simulations to be trusted (in line with previous work, e.g. Poirazi, Brannon & Mel, (2003)).

      We agree that multiple factors might affect the influence of nonlinearities on the soma. The key goal of our study was to understand the role played by random connectivity in giving rise to clustered computation. Since simulating a wide range of connectivity and activity patterns in a detailed biophysical model was computationally expensive, we analyzed the exemplar detailed models for nonlinearity separately (Figures 5, 6, and new figure 8), and then used our abstract models as a proxy for understanding population dynamics. A complete analysis of the role played by morphology, channel kinetics and the effect of branching requires an in-depth study of its own, and some of these questions have already been tackled by (Poirazi, Brannon, and Mel 2003; Branco, Clark, and Häusser 2010; Bhalla 2017). However, in the revision, we have implemented a single model which incorporates the range of ion-channel, synaptic and biochemical signaling nonlinearities which we discuss in the paper (Figure 8, and Figure 8 Supplement 1, 2,3). We use this to demonstrate all three forms of sequence and grouped computation we use in the study, where the only difference is in the stimulus pattern and the separation of time-scales inherent in the stimuli.

      (4) It is unclear whether some of the conclusions would hold in the presence of learning. In the signal-to-noise analysis, all synaptic strengths are assumed equal. But if synapses involved in salient clusters or sequences were potentiated, presumably detection would become easier? Similarly, if presynaptic tuning and/or timing were reorganized through learning, the conditions for synaptic arrangements to be useful could be relaxed. Answering these questions is beyond the scope of the study, but there is a caveat there nonetheless.

      We agree with the reviewer. If synapses receiving connectivity from ensembles had stronger weights, this would make detection easier. Dendritic spikes arising from clustered inputs have been implicated in local cooperative plasticity (Golding, Staff, and Spruston 2002; Losonczy, Makara, and Magee 2008). Further, plasticity related proteins synthesized at a synapse undergoing L-LTP can diffuse to neighboring weakly co-active synapses, and thereby mediate cooperative plasticity (Harvey et al. 2008; Govindarajan, Kelleher, and Tonegawa 2006; Govindarajan et al. 2011). Thus if clusters of synapses were likely to be co-active, they could further engage these local plasticity mechanisms which could potentiate them while not potentiating synapses that are activated by background activity. This would depend on the activity correlation between synapses receiving ensemble inputs within a cluster vs those activated by background activity. We have mentioned some of these ideas in a published opinion paper (Pulikkottil, Somashekar, and Bhalla 2021). In the current study, we wanted to understand whether even in the absence of specialized connection rules, interesting computations could still emerge. Thus, we focused on asking whether clustered or sequential convergence could arise even in a purely randomly connected network, with the most basic set of assumptions. We agree that an analysis of how selectivity evolves with learning would be an interesting topic for further work.

      References

      • Bhalla, Upinder S. 2017. “Synaptic Input Sequence Discrimination on Behavioral Timescales Mediated by Reaction-Diffusion Chemistry in Dendrites.” Edited by Frances K Skinner. eLife 6 (April):e25827. https://doi.org/10.7554/eLife.25827.

      • Branco, Tiago, Beverley A. Clark, and Michael Häusser. 2010. “Dendritic Discrimination of Temporal Input Sequences in Cortical Neurons.” Science (New York, N.Y.) 329 (5999): 1671–75. https://doi.org/10.1126/science.1189664.

      • Foldiak, Peter. 2003. “Sparse Coding in the Primate Cortex.” The Handbook of Brain Theory and Neural Networks. https://research-repository.st-andrews.ac.uk/bitstream/handle/10023/2994/FoldiakSparse HBTNN2e02.pdf?sequence=1.

      • Golding, Nace L., Nathan P. Staff, and Nelson Spruston. 2002. “Dendritic Spikes as a Mechanism for Cooperative Long-Term Potentiation.” Nature 418 (6895): 326–31. https://doi.org/10.1038/nature00854.

      • Govindarajan, Arvind, Inbal Israely, Shu-Ying Huang, and Susumu Tonegawa. 2011. “The Dendritic Branch Is the Preferred Integrative Unit for Protein Synthesis-Dependent LTP.” Neuron 69 (1): 132–46. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.neuron.2010.12.008.

      • Govindarajan, Arvind, Raymond J. Kelleher, and Susumu Tonegawa. 2006. “A Clustered Plasticity Model of Long-Term Memory Engrams.” Nature Reviews Neuroscience 7 (7): 575–83. https://doi.org/10.1038/nrn1937.

      • Harvey, Christopher D., Ryohei Yasuda, Haining Zhong, and Karel Svoboda. 2008. “The Spread of Ras Activity Triggered by Activation of a Single Dendritic Spine.” Science (New York, N.Y.) 321 (5885): 136–40. https://doi.org/10.1126/science.1159675.

      • Losonczy, Attila, Judit K. Makara, and Jeffrey C. Magee. 2008. “Compartmentalized Dendritic Plasticity and Input Feature Storage in Neurons.” Nature 452 (7186): 436–41. https://doi.org/10.1038/nature06725.

      • Poirazi, Panayiota, Terrence Brannon, and Bartlett W. Mel. 2003. “Pyramidal Neuron as Two-Layer Neural Network.” Neuron 37 (6): 989–99. https://doi.org/10.1016/S0896-6273(03)00149-1.

      • Pulikkottil, Vinu Varghese, Bhanu Priya Somashekar, and Upinder S. Bhalla. 2021. “Computation, Wiring, and Plasticity in Synaptic Clusters.” Current Opinion in Neurobiology, Computational Neuroscience, 70 (October):101–12. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.conb.2021.08.001.

    1. Sommaire avec timestamps de "Réapprendre à (bien) se parler"

      Voici un sommaire avec timestamps des sujets abordés dans la transcription de l'émission "Réapprendre à (bien) se parler" de France Culture:

      1. Introduction et diagnostic de la crise de la parole (0:00 - 2:45):

      • Présentation de Gérald Garutti et de son livre "Il faut voir comment se parle".
      • Symptômes de la dégradation de la parole:
        • Absence de parole commune.
        • Vitesse qui empêche l'élaboration de la pensée.
        • Confusion entre parole, performance et impact.
        • Absence d'écoute.
      • Sentiment de ressentiment et d'auto-dévoration.
      • Dévaluation de la parole comme symptôme du recul de l'humanité.

      2. L'influence des écrans et la nécessité de retrouver un espace commun (2:45 - 5:45):

      • Les écrans comme fenêtre, miroir et mur.
      • La parole comme opérateur de lien et de dépassement de soi.
      • Importance des arts de la parole pour canaliser, élaborer et sublimer la parole.
      • Manque de réflexion sur la réception du message et l'interaction.

      3. Le "nous" problématique et l'individualisme (5:45 - 8:55):

      • Analyse du titre du livre "Il faut voir comment se parle", inspiré d'une chanson d'Alain Souchon.
      • Disparition du "nous" et passage à un monde individualiste.
      • Changement de civilisation lié à l'avènement d'internet et des réseaux sociaux.
      • Radicalisation de l'individualisme et communautés fallacieuses.
      • Importance du théâtre comme art de l'autre et de la parole adressée.

      4. La parole collective et la légitimité (8:55 - 12:10):

      • Analyse de la phrase d'Emmanuel Macron sur la légitimité de la foule manifestante.
      • Différence entre la parole de masse et la parole collective.
      • Dégradation de la parole au sein du Parlement.
      • Problème d'écoute et de dialogue politique.
      • Risque de violence en l'absence de dialogue.
      • Importance de réhabiliter l'échange et la bonne parole.

      5. L'art de la conversation et la complexité (12:10 - 15:05):

      • Définition d'une bonne conversation selon Madame de Staël.
      • La conversation comme force de séduction et d'invention.
      • Importance de l'esprit de complexité, inspiré de Kundera.

      6. Les 7 arts de la parole (15:05 - 18:10):

      • Critique de la réduction de la parole à l'éloquence instrumentale.
      • Les 7 arts de la parole:
        • Théâtre: parole adressée et incarnée.
        • Récit: parole qui se raconte.
        • Poésie: parole qui s'invente et se formule.
        • Dialogue: parole échangée.
        • Débat: parole confrontée.
        • Transmission: éloquence et conférence.
      • Importance de la transmission et de l'écoute active.

      7. Le théâtre et l'imaginaire (18:10 - 21:40):

      • Importance de la lecture et de la relecture pour comprendre la complexité d'une œuvre.
      • Le théâtre comme art de l'interprétation et de l'imaginaire.
      • Le théâtre comme espace de rêve et de parole essentielle.
      • Présentation du Centre des Arts de la Parole à Aubervilliers.

      8. Conclusion (21:40 - 22:45):

      • Discussion sur le rôle de Brian Cox et le projet de mise en scène du Roi Lear avec Pierre Richard.
      • Remerciements à Gérald Garutti.

      Ce sommaire est basé uniquement sur la transcription fournie.

    1. Table des matières: L'automatisation des emails avec Cakemail pour les associations

      Ce document explore l'automatisation des emails, une fonctionnalité avancée de Cakemail, la nouvelle solution de newsletter intégrée à Yapla.

      Destiné aux associations, ce guide, basé sur un webinaire Yapla, détaille les concepts clés, les applications possibles et la mise en place d'une automatisation simple.

      I. Introduction à l'automatisation des emails (0:00 - 10:00)

      • Définition et terminologie (0:00 - 2:00): Clarification des termes clés comme "automatisation email," "drip campaigns," et "workflows."
      • Utilité pour les associations (2:00 - 4:00): Exploration des avantages de l'automatisation pour les associations, notamment le gain de temps et la gestion simplifiée des tâches répétitives.
      • Éléments clés d'une automatisation (4:00 - 6:00): Décomposition des concepts de fréquence d'envoi, d'impact potentiel, et de l'entonnoir de conversion.

      Différents types de campagnes automatisées (6:00 - 10:00):

      Présentation des "drip campaigns" et leur utilisation pour des objectifs variés comme le recrutement de membres, l'engagement des membres, et la sensibilisation aux dons.

      II. Exemples concrets d'automatisation pour les associations (10:00 - 30:00)

      Fédération de podologues: Recruter de nouveaux membres (10:00 - 13:00):

      Illustration d'une campagne en 4 étapes pour inciter les prospects à devenir membres, en utilisant des témoignages, des ressources exclusives et des offres spéciales.

      Fédération de plein air: Renforcer l'engagement des membres (13:00 - 16:00):

      Exemple d'une campagne d'engagement des membres sur une saison, avec des envois d'emails planifiés pour promouvoir les activités, partager des ressources et mettre en avant la communauté.

      Maison de la famille: Recruter des bénévoles (16:00 - 19:00):

      Démonstration d'une campagne pour attirer de nouveaux bénévoles, en utilisant des témoignages, des informations sur les compétences acquises et un appel à l'action clair.

      Collecte de dons pour les écoliers: Sensibilisation aux dons (19:00 - 23:00):

      Exemple d'une campagne de sensibilisation et de collecte de dons, en utilisant des statistiques, des histoires touchantes et des appels à l'action variés.

      Yapla: Augmenter la participation à une conférence (23:00 - 26:00):

      Illustration d'une campagne pour promouvoir une conférence et inciter les utilisateurs à s'inscrire, en utilisant des vidéos, des témoignages et un sentiment d'urgence.

      III. Démonstration de la création d'une automatisation avec Cakemail (26:00 - 48:00)

      Exploration d'une automatisation pré-construite (26:00 - 32:00):

      Analyse d'une automatisation complexe pour une conférence, illustrant l'utilisation des déclencheurs, des conditions, et des emails personnalisés.

      Création d'une automatisation simple étape par étape (32:00 - 45:00):

      Démonstration de la création d'une automatisation pour encourager la lecture d'un rapport annuel, incluant la sélection de la liste, la définition des délais, la création des emails et l'utilisation des conditions pour personnaliser le contenu.

      Activation et suivi des statistiques (45:00 - 48:00): Explication de la procédure d'activation, l'ajout manuel de contacts et l'importance du suivi des statistiques pour évaluer l'efficacité de la campagne.

      IV. Conclusion et questions (48:00 - 52:00)

      Récapitulatif et encouragement à l'exploration (48:00 - 50:00):

      Synthèse des points clés abordés et encouragement à utiliser l'automatisation pour améliorer la communication des associations.

      Session de questions-réponses (50:00 - 52:00):

      Espace dédié aux questions des participants sur l'automatisation des emails avec Cakemail.

    1. Sommaire du documentaire "École, le défi de l’égalité" avec timestamps

      Le documentaire "École, le défi de l’égalité", produit par le CNRS, explore les multiples facettes des inégalités éducatives en France et propose des pistes pour les réduire. Voici un sommaire avec timestamps pour vous guider à travers les différents thèmes abordés :

      Introduction (0:00 - 1:00)

      • Le taux de réussite au baccalauréat a considérablement augmenté au cours du 20ème siècle, passant de 2% à 90%.
      • Malgré la démocratisation de l'école, les inégalités éducatives persistent et se creusent.
      • Les chercheurs du CNRS s'intéressent aux mécanismes de production de ces inégalités et aux solutions possibles.

      Les inégalités dès le plus jeune âge (1:00 - 2:30)

      • Les inégalités se manifestent dès la maternelle, notamment à travers les interactions langagières.
      • Sébastien Goudeau, chercheur au Centre de recherche sur la cognition et l'apprentissage, étudie ces inégalités grâce à un protocole original en psychologie sociale.
      • Des caméras filment les élèves en classe pour observer qui prend la parole spontanément, qui est interrogé le plus souvent, et pendant combien de temps.
      • Les résultats montrent que les enfants de milieux favorisés ont tendance à prendre la parole plus souvent, à couper la parole et à parler plus longtemps que leurs camarades de milieux populaires.

      L'impact des stéréotypes (2:30 - 4:30)

      • Les enfants ont tendance à associer la prise de parole fréquente et longue à l'intelligence et à la sagesse.
      • Les élèves de milieux populaires, n'ayant pas le même bagage culturel, peuvent interpréter leur manque de prise de parole comme un manque d'intelligence.
      • L'image que les élèves ont d'eux-mêmes, notamment en termes de compétences et d'intelligence, influence leur réussite scolaire.
      • Isabelle Régnier a démontré l'influence du stéréotype de genre en sciences sur les performances des filles aux tests de mathématiques.
      • Les stéréotypes peuvent activer la peur de l'échec et empêcher la mobilisation des ressources cognitives nécessaires à la réussite.
      • Les élèves ne sont donc pas entièrement responsables de leurs échecs ou de leurs réussites, ce qui remet en question la croyance en la méritocratie.

      La méritocratie, un frein au changement? (4:30 - 6:00)

      • Céline Darnon et son équipe ont étudié l'impact de la croyance en la méritocratie sur l'adhésion des parents à des méthodes pédagogiques égalisantes.
      • Les parents sont globalement favorables à l'égalité des chances à l'école.
      • Cependant, plus les parents croient en la méritocratie, moins ils soutiennent la mise en place de méthodes égalisantes dans l'école de leurs enfants.
      • Cette opposition disparaît lorsque la méthode proposée améliore les performances de tous les élèves, sans modifier l'écart entre les milieux sociaux.
      • La croyance en la méritocratie semble donc constituer un obstacle à la mise en place de mesures visant à réduire les inégalités éducatives.

      Apprendre à apprendre (6:00 - 7:30)

      • Le laboratoire de psychologie du développement et de l'éducation de l'enfant explore des pistes pour faciliter les apprentissages fondamentaux.
      • Des séances d'apprentissage explicites de connaissances et de stratégies métacognitives sont proposées à des élèves de grande section de maternelle.
      • L'objectif est d'aider les élèves à comprendre le fonctionnement de leur cerveau, à planifier leurs apprentissages, à utiliser des stratégies efficaces et à évaluer leurs erreurs.
      • Ces compétences métacognitives pourraient constituer un levier pour réduire les inégalités éducatives, car elles expliquent une grande partie des différences de performance entre élèves de milieux sociaux différents.

      Le potentiel du numérique (7:30 - 9:00)

      • Le laboratoire de psychologie sociale et cognitive de Clermont-Ferrand a mené une expérimentation sur l'utilisation des outils numériques pour gérer l'hétérogénéité des élèves.
      • Les technologies numériques permettent de présenter un même objet d'apprentissage sous des formes variées, adaptées aux différents profils d'élèves.
      • Elles offrent également la possibilité d'apprendre en faisant des erreurs sans la pression du regard des autres.
      • L'outil numérique développé dans le cadre de cette expérimentation a été testé auprès de 8 000 élèves et 250 enseignants dans 38 collèges.

      La ségrégation scolaire (9:00 - 11:00)

      • L'expérimentation "bipollege", menée dans le 18ème arrondissement de Paris, visait à mélanger des élèves de collèges voisins mais socialement contrastés.
      • L'objectif était de réduire la ségrégation scolaire et de favoriser la mixité sociale.
      • Les résultats montrent que la mixité sociale n'a pas d'impact négatif sur les résultats des élèves favorisés.
      • À court terme, les élèves défavorisés ne bénéficient pas de gains significatifs sur le plan scolaire.
      • En revanche, la mixité sociale a un impact positif sur les aspects non cognitifs, tels que la confiance en soi, l'ambition scolaire et les relations entre élèves.
      • Malgré ces résultats encourageants, l'expérimentation "bipollege" n'a pas été généralisée.
      • En France, l'évitement du public au profit du privé contribue significativement à la ségrégation scolaire.
      • Une réflexion s'impose sur la manière d'impliquer l'enseignement privé dans la démarche de mixité sociale, étant donné son financement public.

      Conclusion (11:00 - 12:30)

      • La réduction des inégalités éducatives nécessite une transformation profonde du système éducatif français.
      • Cela implique de revoir la carte scolaire, la mixité sociale au sein des établissements, mais aussi les programmes scolaires.
      • Il est important de prendre en compte les implicites et les non-dits de l'apprentissage pour réellement lutter contre les inégalités.
      • La recherche pluridisciplinaire est essentielle pour apporter des solutions aux problèmes complexes du système éducatif.
      • Les chercheurs doivent apprendre à communiquer leurs résultats aux politiques afin de les traduire en politiques publiques efficaces.
    1. Reviewer #1 (Public review):

      In the current manuscript, the authors use theoretical and analytical tools to examine the possibility of neural projections to engage ensembles of synaptic clusters in active dendrites. The analysis is divided into multiple models that differ in the connectivity parameters, speed of interactions and identity of the signal (electric vs. second messenger). They first show that random connectivity almost ensures the representation of presynaptic ensembles. As expected, this convergence is much more likely for small group sizes and slow processes, such as calcium dynamics. Conversely, fast signals (spikes and postsynaptic potentials) and large groups are much less likely to recruit spatially clustered inputs. Dendritic nonlinearity in the postsynaptic cells was found to play a highly important role in distinguishing these clustered activation patterns, both when activated simultaneously and in sequence. The authors tackled the difficult issue of noise, showing a beneficiary effect when noise 'happen' to fill in gaps in a sequential pattern but degraded performance at higher background activity levels. Last, the authors simulated selectivity to chemical and electrical signals. While they find that longer sequences are less perturbed by noise, in more realistic activation conditions, the signals are not well resolved in the soma.

      While I think the premise of the manuscript is worth exploring, I have a number of reservations regarding the results.

      (1) In the analysis, the authors made a simplifying assumption that the chemical and electrical processes are independent. However, this is not the case; excitatory inputs to spines often trigger depolarization combined with pronounced calcium influx; this mixed signaling could have dramatic implications on the analysis, particularly if the dendrites are nonlinear (see below)<br /> (2) Sequence detection in active dendrites is often simplified to investigating activation in a part of or the entirety of individual branches. However, the authors did not do that for most of their analysis. Instead, they treat the entire dendritic tree as one long branch and count how many inputs form clusters. I fail to see why the simplification is required and suspect it can lead to wrong results. For example, two inputs that are mapped to different dendrites in the 'original' morphology but then happen to fall next to each other when the branches are staggered to form the long dendrites would be counted as neighbors.<br /> (3) The simulations were poorly executed. Figures 5 and 6 show examples but no summary statistics. The authors emphasize the importance of nonlinear dendritic interactions, but they do not include them in their analysis of the ectopic signals! I find it to be wholly expected that the effects of dendritic ensembles are not pronounced when the dendrites are linear.

      To provide a comprehensive analysis of dendritic integration, the authors could simulate more realistic synaptic conductances and voltage-gated channels. They would find much more complicated interactions between inputs on a single site, a sliding temporal and spatial window of nonlinear integration that depends on dendritic morphology, active and passive parameters and synaptic properties. At different activation levels, the rules of synaptic integration shift to cooperativity between different dendrites and cellular compartments, further complicated by nonlinear interactions between somatic spikes and dendritic events.

      While it is tempting to extend back-of-the-napkin calculations of how many inputs can recruit nonlinear integration in active dendrites, the biological implementation is very different from this hypothetical. It is important to consider these questions, but I am not convinced that this manuscript adequately addressed the questions it set out to probe, nor does it provide information that was unknown beforehand.

      Update after the first revision:

      In this revision, the authors significantly improved the manuscript. They now address some of my concerns. Specifically, they show the contribution of end-effects on spreading the inputs between dendrites. This analysis reveals greater applicability of their findings to cortical cells, with long, unbranching dendrites than other neuronal types, such as Purkinje cells in the cerebellum.

      They now explain better the interactions between calcium and voltage signals, which I believe improve the take-away message of their manuscript. They modified and added new figures that helped to provide more information about their simulations.<br /> However, some of my points remain valid. Figure 6 shows depolarization of ~5mV from -75. This weak depolarization would not effectively recruit nonlinear activation of NMDARs. In their paper, Branco and Hausser (2010) showed depolarizations of ~10-15mV. More importantly, the signature of NMDAR activation is the prolonged plateau potential and activation at more depolarized resting membrane potentials (their Figure 4). Thus, despite including NMDARs in the simulation, the authors do not model functional recruitment of these channels. Their simulation is thus equivalent to AMPA only drive, which can indeed summate somewhat nonlinearly.

    1. Note: This response was posted by the corresponding author to Review Commons. The content has not been altered except for formatting.

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      Reply to the reviewers

      Response to reviewers’ comments for Isbilir et al

      We thank the reviewers for their insightful comments and advice. In light of the reviewers’ constructive suggestions, we have revised our manuscript as detailed below.

      Reviewer #1 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      Summary: In this manuscript, the authors investigate the unique Mycobacteriaceae cell envelope using cryo-tomography/cryo-electron microscopy with Corynebacterium glutamicum as a model organism. Cryo-EM images of C. glutamicum cells successfully resolved previously observed densities corresponding to the MM, arabinogalactan, peptidoglycan, and inner membrane layers of the cell envelope along with the S-layer. The authors found that the S-layer is patchy in a manner dependent on growth phase (i.e. liquid versus solid growth). Intriguingly, when the S-layer was present, the leaflets of the MM appeared to be disrupted. The authors solved the structure of purified S-layer protein PS2 by cryo-EM, however they could not resolve the C-terminal membrane interaction domain. The authors found that PS2 is hexameric and different hexamers are linked by trimeric interface to create a porous structure. Phylogenetic analysis showed conservation of PS2 within corynebacteria and suggested a signature for MM-association.

      Major comments:

      (1) The S-layer structure is porous and the authors suggest that it may function as a molecular sieve or permeability barrier. This hypothesis should either be tested experimentally, or further discussion is needed regarding what small molecules (chemical features, size) would be able to penetrate.

      This is a misunderstanding; we rather expect the opposite scenario in which the dimensions of the PS2 S-layer pores are too large to act as a molecular sieve. We are sorry for the confusion and have further clarified this part of the results and discussion.

      Line 258: “The combination of hexameric and trimeric interfaces results in varying pores sizes of 6 Å, 27 Å, and 81 Å within the lattice (Fig. 3A). Some of these pores are relatively large and are reminiscent of the porous S-layer of Deinococcus radiodurans, which is also patchy on the cell surface (von Kügelgen et al., 2023). This suggests that C. glutamicum S-layer likely does not function as a molecular sieve, i.e. it has no protective role due to large pore dimensions and patchy cellular coating of the S-layer.”

      and

      Line 470: “The large pores (especially the 27 Å- and 81 Å-pores) in the S-layer suggest that its role is not to protect the cells from invading molecules or phages.”

      (2) The authors show cryo-EM images of dividing C. glutamicum cells but don't make any statements as to the presence, morphology, and measurements of the different cell envelope layers. This analysis should be included.

      We thank the reviewer for pointing this out. As suggested, we modified Figure S1 to highlight further details, and we have added the sentences below into the manuscript text.

      Line 175: “To probe the plasticity of the cell envelope during the cell cycle, we analysed the cell envelope layers within the dividing septum (Fig. S1E). The thickness of the septum (~55 nm) was found to be greater than the usual thickness of the cell envelope (~42 nm on the same cell, see also Fig. 1A). The septum is composed of unseparated cell envelopes of the daughter cells that appear to contain a single ‘outer’ membrane, which is likely composed of mycolic acids. Presumably, this membrane will form the future MM once division is completed. Notably, the putative mycolic acid-containing bilayer within the septum was not connected to the MM on the other parts of the cell, whereas the remaining cell envelope layers appeared to be continuous with the rest of the cell. While IM and the putative future MM were clearly distinguishable, PG and AG could not be differentially identified in the dividing septum.”

      and

      Line 422: “In addition to cell envelopes of non-dividing cells, the dividing C. glutamicum septum shows two daughter cell envelopes separated by a bilayer likely containing mycolic acids. Notably, this bilayer was not connected to the MM on the rest of the cell (Fig. S1E). This observation is in line with the previous studies showing that at septal junctions, a contiguous PG layer acts as a diffusion barrier for the MM, and during separation of daughter cells, the PG in the septal junctions is displaced, allowing the bilayer at the septum to merge with the rest of the MM (Zhou et al., 2019).”

      __Figure S1. Cryo-FIB milling of C. glutamicum cells. __

      E) Septum of a dividing C. glutamicum cell. Ten 0.85 nm thick-slices of the tomogram were averaged and bandpass-filtered to boost contrast. Zoomed view of the septum is shown on the right.

      (3) The authors should include more discussion as to the patchiness or "wavy" MM near sites of PS2 contact. Cryo-EM of cells that express a variant of PS2 that lack the membrane anchoring domain would demonstrate that this is specific to PS2-membrane contacts. Minimally, providing some quantification for this phenotype would strengthen the claim (for instance, does the spacing between the perturbations match the expected scale of distance between S-layer membrane contacts).

      We agree with reviewer that demonstrating the “wavy” nature of the MM requires further analysis. While it is our strong impression that the wavy nature is increased underneath the PS2 S-layer, we could not find a suitable metric to show this convincingly, i.e. all our analyses (real space averaging or averaging of power spectra) did not give clear-cut results. This is probably due to the inherent variability in the MM around the cell. In line with this, we have decided to tone down the relevant text in the manuscript.

      Line 151: “Although we cannot be certain given the existing data, we suppose that this perturbation of the MM directly beneath the patchy S-layer could arise due to the interaction of the S-layer anchoring domain with the MM, which has been predicted to be present in the coiled coil part of the PS2 protein forming the S-layer using bioinformatics (Johnston et al., 2024).”

      (4) The authors speculate on complete conservation of certain residues in the C-terminal domain of PS2 and hypothesize that they may be important for maturation or targeting of MM-associated proteins. Two additional examples of proteins with this motif are mentioned as evidence. Authors should search for this motif in pre-existing lists of MM proteins in the literature to test if this hypothesis is robust. Experiments to test if the conserved C-terminal residues of PS2 are required for export or assembly into an S-layer are feasible but optional given the scope of the paper.

      We thank the reviewer for raising this point. Upon thoroughly re-examining the literature, we identified a previous study by Marchand et al. (J Bacteriol., 2012) that characterized MM-associated proteins in C. glutamicum. The proteins reported in this study as associated with the inner leaflet of the MM, including the mycoloyltransferases MytA and MytB, as well as those involved in pore formation, such as PorA and PorB, do not possess a phenylalanine as their terminal residue. This observation suggests that the invariant phenylalanine in PS2 does not represent a universal mechanism for targeting proteins to the MM. However, we also noted that several putative cell-surface proteins identified in this study, which feature a PS2-like C-terminal hydrophobic anchor preceded by a disordered segment, harbor a phenylalanine, proline, or lysine at their C-terminus. Additionally, the targeting of porins such as PorA, PorH, PorB, and PorC to the MM in C. glutamicum is known to depend on posttranslational O-mycoloylation. Based on these findings, we speculate that the conserved phenylalanine in PS2 may contribute to its anchoring and stabilization within the MM, rather than functioning as a universal targeting signal—a hypothesis we plan to investigate in future studies. We have revised the manuscript to incorporate these points and provide additional context.

      Line 377: “To explore this hypothesis, we analysed MM-associated proteins of C. glutamicum identified in a previous study (Marchand et al., 2012). Proteins associated with the inner leaflet of the MM, such as the mycoloyltransferases MytA, MytB, MytC, MytD, and MytF, or those involved in pore formation, such as PorA and PorB, do not possess a phenylalanine as their terminal residue, suggesting that the invariant phenylalanine in PS2 does not represent a general mechanism for targeting proteins to the MM. However, several putative cell-surface proteins with a PS2-like C-terminal hydrophobic anchor preceded by a disordered segment were found to harbor a phenylalanine, proline, or lysine at their C-terminus. Examples include a prenyltransferase/squalene oxidase repeat-containing protein (NCBI: WP_011013715.1) and a metallophosphoesterase family protein (WP_011015494.1) (Fig. S8). Based on this conservation, we identified additional putative MM-associated cell-surface proteins in C. glutamicum (Fig. S8), such as an ExeM/NucH family extracellular endonuclease (WP_003854007.1) and a lamin tail domain-containing protein (WP_004567709.1). Interestingly, the targeting of porins PorA, PorH, PorB, and PorC to the MM in C. glutamicum has been shown to depend on posttranslational O-mycoloylation, which facilitates their proper localization and integration into the mycomembrane (Carel et al., 2017). Whether O-mycoloylation is also involved in the targeting of PS2 remains an open question and warrants further investigation. We speculate that terminal residues such as phenylalanine, proline, and lysine may contribute to anchoring cell-surface proteins within the MM by stabilizing interactions with the hydrophobic membrane environment or acting as signals for specific sorting or assembly mechanisms.”

      (5) The authors do not draw the distinction between MM-associated and integral MM proteins (that contain a transmembrane domain). Is the C-terminal membrane anchoring domain of PS2 likely to span the entire bilayer or just be associated by a few amino acids?

      The MM-anchoring hydrophobic segment is approximately 25 residues long across PS2 homologs, corresponding to a ~3.75 nm α-helix. In comparison, the MM has a thickness of 4–5 nm. This suggests that, while the MM-anchoring segment may not strictly qualify as a transmembrane domain integral to the MM, it is sufficiently long to embed deeply into the membrane and potentially span much of its bilayer thickness. To address this, we have added the following clarification to the manuscript:

      Line 363: “The MM-binding segment is predicted by AlphaFold2 models to comprise an N-terminal hydrophobic a-helix and a short C-terminal amphipathic a-helix; however, in the MM, these may function as a single continuous helix. The MM-binding segment of PS2 homologs in Corynebacterium is consistently approximately 25 amino acid residues long, corresponding to a ~3.75 nm α-helix—sufficiently long to nearly traverse the 4–5 nm thickness of the MM.”

      Minor comments:

      (1) The authors comment that the thickness of the MM both with and without the S-layer is the similar and conclude that there is no change in mycolic acid length. The resolution of the technique is not sufficient to make this statement.

      We agree with the reviewer in this point, while we can only measure the thickness of bilayer, we cannot comment on the thickness of each leaflet of the mycomembrane. Therefore, we have revised the text accordingly.

      Line 144: “In 2D projection images of FIB-milled cells, the two leaflets of the MM were clearly resolved (Figs. 1C-D). The thickness of the MM in both cell envelopes with and without S-layer was between 4-5 nm (Table S1).”

      (2) It would be helpful if the authors could comment if their membrane dimension measurements agree with previously published results in the main text of the manuscript. It is currently only included in the legend of Table S1.

      Specifically regarding the MM, the measurements from both studies are quite similar; compare 4-5 nm from our study with 4.7 nm from Zuber et al., 2008. As the reviewer suggested, we have revised the discussion to include the comparison of the measurements with Zuber et al., 2008.

      Line 413: “Our measurements are largely consistent with previous results (Zuber et al., 2008), except that in our data the IWZ was significantly thinner (~9.8 nm in this study vs. ~18 nm in Zuber et al., 2008), which is possibly due to strain differences. Moreover, our measurement of MWZ was slightly different because we could resolve OWZ as a separate layer, which was included into the MWZ measurement in the previous study (~15nm in this study vs. ~20.9 nm in Zuber et al., 2008) (Zuber et al., 2008).”

      Reviewer #1 (Significance (Required)):

      The manuscript provides compelling images and structures of the C. glutamicum cell envelope and S-layer protein PS2, respectively. These cryo-EM images of the cell envelope appear to agree nicely with pre-existing studies in the field. The introduction of the manuscript was well-written and the data in the manuscript is of broad interest to those who study the Mycobacteriaceae cell envelope. There is a lot of compelling data included in the paper, but the study would be strengthened by further analysis of the data as well as additional experiments to support some of the hypotheses suggested.

      Thank you.

      Reviewer expertise: bacterial genetics, bacterial cell envelope, protein transport

      __ __

      Reviewer #2 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      Corynebacterium glutamicum is an organism with important industrial application, and it shares its complex cell-envelop architecture with organism of great relevance in human health such Corynebacterium diphtheriae and pathogenic mycobacteria. Using a cryo-EM and cryo-ET approaches together with phylogenetic studies, the authors provide of an in-deep structural characterization of the cell envelop of C. glutamicum. The authors map the different components of the cell envelope using high-resolution tomography, revealing unseen details of the outer wall zone, previously unsolved and attributed to the AG molecule. They provide with an atomic model of the PS2 S-layer at 3.1 A global resolution. The later discloses key features of the S-layer architecture, consisting of a hexagonal scaffold built by the PS2 protein, and its interaction with the mycolic membrane. The phylogenetic and bioinformatic studies show PS2 S-layer to be exclusively found within the Corynebacterium genus, although sporadically, and a correlation of PS2 presence/absence with other genetic differences. Despite PS2 homologues are shown to share common regions, which suggests all PS2 S-layers to exhibit a hexagonal lattice like the described in this study, but with divergent lattice parameters.

      Major comments:

      The authors provide with solid data supporting the structural models and conclusions stated. Text and figures are clear and nicely presented. I have however an important question regarding a the cryo-EM model. In Figure 3 B-C and Figure S3D-H, the authors depict protein details including hydrogen atoms, which make me question if the PS2 S-layer structure has been modeled including hydrogen atoms. The resolution of the cryo-EM data does not enable to model hydrogens that, if were included in the structure, should be removed of the coordinate file of the S-layer model and figures.

      We agree with the reviewer that the current resolution of the cryo-EM map is not sufficient to model hydrogen atoms. The hydrogens were added to PS2 S-layer model during refinement in ISOLDE (Croll, 2018), and retained during Phenix real space refinement (Afonine et al., 2018; Liebschner et al., 2019). We agree with the reviewer that hydrogens should not be shown in the figures, since their positions have not been determined experimentally in our cryo-EM map. We have therefore removed these atoms from Figures 3 and S4.

      __ “Figure 3. The PS2 S-layer Lattice. …“__

      “Figure S4. Features of the PS2 S-layer lattice”

      Minor comments

      • Regarding the proposed calcium atoms at the S-Layer. The authors should provide further analysis to support the presence of calcium/divalent atoms proposed. Please show how is the coordination around the blobs spotted as potential calcium (or any other potential divalent that might be interacting at those positions). Does the coordination observed fit with the expected for a calcium/divalent binding site? Are the residues coordinating to those blobs well defined in density? Are the blobs of density of the potential cations observed across all the protomers of the PS2 S-layer? Figure 3D-F depicting the proposed cation-binding sites are too busy and unclear, they should focus on the proposed binding sites showing the interacting side/main-chains involved in the proposed coordination.

      This is an interesting point. To investigate, we performed EDTA/EGTA treatment of the purified PS2 S-layer to see whether there would be any observable effect on the S-layer. We observed that S-layer lattices were still intact after EDTA or EGTA treatment. Therefore, we concluded that either cations do not play a role in stabilizing this S-layer or they are not accessible for chelation by EDTA or EGTA. This experiment unfortunately did not allow us to identify the ionic species. About the coordination: in the unknown densities 1 and 2 in the new Fig. S4, the coordination is clearer when compared to unknown density 3, however we cannot say for certain that these ions are calcium ions. Considering this, we have changed the text accordingly.

      Line 237: “At the sequence level, the PS2 protein is enriched in acidic amino acid residues, giving it an overall negative charge, with an estimated isoelectric point of 4.25 (Fig. S4B-C). Consistent with this overall negative charge, we observed putative cationic densities at various locations along the PS2 sequence in the cryo-EM map, which are surrounded and stabilized by negatively charged amino acid residues (Figs. S4D-F). The identity of these cations cannot be ascertained at the current resolution of our cryo-EM map; however, previous studies on other bacterial S-layers suggest that they may correspond to calcium (Baranova et al., 2012; Herdman et al., 2022; Sogues et al., 2023). These cations may further stabilize the lattice, similar to other S-layers where cations were found to be essential for lattice formation (Baranova et al., 2012; Herdman et al., 2022; Sogues et al., 2023; von Kügelgen et al., 2021). To probe this further, we incubated purified PS2 S-layers with either 10 mM EDTA or 10 mM EGTA and examined the effect on the treated S-layers. Following the chemical treatment, S-layer lattices were still intact, with no observable differences under both conditions (Fig. S4I). This suggests that either these putative cations do not play a major role in stabilizing the PS2 S-layer or they are not accessible for chelation by EDTA or EGTA under the chosen experimental conditions”

      and

      “Figure S4. Features of the PS2 S-layer lattice… D, E, F) __Putative densities possibly corresponding to cations and G) SDS detergent molecules are shown, with the respective sigma values of the maps shown in the bottom right. The potential densities are denoted with an “*”, and the surrounding residues also labelled. H) __The coiled-coil segment (residues 405-445) is shown in side view (left) and bottom view (right). __I) __Purified PS2 S-layer sheets incubated with EDTA (middle) and EGTA (right) show no discernible differences from native S-layers (left).”

      • Regarding the potential SDS density. Looking at Figure 3G, it is not clear how the morphology of the density shown (with a T-shape) would fit a linear molecule of SDS (could be the view selected?). Have the authors performed any attempt of modelling the SDS molecule to assess this and/or those PS2 residues contributing to stabilize the SDS? Is this density consistently observed across the other interfaces of the hexamer? That would support their hypothesis.

      This density is observed in the other interfaces of the hexamer as well, and it is also seen in maps that were produced from refinements without any symmetry applied, i.e. when the processing was performed in C1. Nevertheless, taking on board the criticism about the ambiguity of both the putative SDS and calcium densities, combined with the inconclusive results of our EDTA/EGTA treatment, we have changed the panel titles of Fig. S4D-G to “Unknown density 1-4” in revised the manuscript (see above), making sure to not claim more than what is revealed by the density.

      Reviewer #2 (Significance (Required)):

      As structural biologist I consider that this study constitutes an important advance in our understanding of the complex architecture and function of the cell-envelop of C. glutamicum. Knowledge that can help to better understand this intricate envelop present in other Mycobacteriaceae relatives, which include important human pathogen such as Mycobacterium tuberculosis or Corynebacterium diphtheriae. This study is most relevant for the scientific community investigating on the bacterial cell envelop (structure, evolution and function) as well as in host-pathogen interactions. Moreover, the cell envelop constitutes a target for bacteriostatics and thus, this study may be relevant for the scientific community working on antimicrobial development.

      Thank you.

      __ __

      Reviewer #3 (Evidence, reproducibility and clarity (Required)):

      Summary: In the manuscript from Isbilir et al, the authors investigate the cell envelope of Corynebacterium glutamicum, a bacterium extensively used in biotechnological applications, using state-of-the-art cryo-electron microscopy methodologies as well as bioinformatics. They convincingly demonstrate that the C. glutamicum S-layer consists of hexagonal PS2 arrays and provide the underlying structural basis of this intriguing assembly. Bioinformatic analysis further revealed conserved and divergent elements of PS2 across Corynebacteria.

      Major comments:

      • My main point of criticism relates to the first part of the results, in which the authors attempt to characterize the cell envelope using cryo-electron tomography. From my own experience, plunge-freezing bacterial lawns often results in bad ice quality (crystalline ice) between the bacterial cells. This seems to be also the case here, looking at the 2D images in Fig. S1D revealing clear Bragg reflections. While often not a problem if interested in intracellular features, the authors are drawing conclusions on the cell envelope, which is in direct contact with these ice crystals, known to be destructive for ultrastructural features. For example, this could be the reason for the "wavy" mycomembrane in Fig. 1A and 1B as well as Fig. S1C. On top, it also might affect their observations of interrupted and discontinuous mycomembranes covered by an S-layer in Fig. 1D. The authors should discuss this limitation, and I would highly recommend rephrasing their conclusions made from this data more carefully.

      We would like to thank the reviewer for their constructive criticism. We agree that it is difficult to vitrify a lawn of bacteria without formation of crystalline ice in all areas of the specimen. In our lamellae, we have primarily vitreous ice (see Fig. S1B, lower right panel for example) but the reviewer has correctly pointed out observed crystalline ice in some areas on the edges of the lamellae. As suggested, we included the following text in the legend to Fig. S1B to warn the readers about this potential shortcoming.

      Line 562: “After milling, lamellae with a 150-200 nm thickness were retained for cryo-ET investigations. Each lamella contained multiple cells suitable for imaging. Although vitreous ice was observed in most lamellae, the edges of some lamellae showed signs of crystalline ice formation…”

      The reviewer’s comment about the MM perturbations is well taken, this was also raised by reviewer 1. Although we attempted to quantify this effect by various image analysis tools, in the end we feel that it is not possible to make clear-cut conclusions about the MM-waviness based on our data. We have therefore toned down our interpretations about the “wavy” nature of the MM in the manuscript text (see also our response to reviewer 1 above).

      Line 151: “Although we cannot be certain given the existing data, we suppose that this perturbation of the MM directly beneath the patchy S-layer could arise due to the interaction of the S-layer anchoring domain with the MM, which has been predicted to be present in the coiled coil part of the PS2 protein forming the S-layer using bioinformatics (Johnston et al., 2024).”

      • The single-particle cryoEM data and the bioinformatic analysis are very well presented, analyzed in much detail, and convincing. While the authors state that the S-layer most probably does not serve to protect the cells from invading molecules or phages, additional experiments to figure out the function of the S-layer would be desirable. However, this might be beyond the scope of this paper but the authors should at least include a clearer discussion about potential function(s).

      As suggested by the reviewer, we have extended the discussion about the potential function of the PS2 S-layer in C. glutamicum.

      Line 465: “We also observed that S-layer coverage appeared to increase when C. glutamicum cells were grown on solid media (Fig. S2A-B). This suggests that the S-layer could be useful for the bacteria to grow in in a colony or in a surface-attached biofilm community, as shown for other bacteria including Clostridium difficile and Tannerella forsythia (Ðapa et al., 2013; Honma et al., 2007; Wong et al., 2023).”

      and

      Line 474: “…Slightly at odds with the large pores, it has been shown that the presence of the PS2 S-layer renders cells more resistant towards lysozyme (Sogues et al., 2024; Theresia et al., 2018). Although lysozyme is much smaller than the pore sizes, it is possible that the S-layer might biochemically sequester such undesirable molecules.”

      • The authors speculate about cations stabilizing the S-layer. To provide further evidence, an optional but straightforward experiment would be to treat the purified S-layer with EDTA and subsequently analyze it with negative stain EM or cryoEM.

      As suggested, we incubated the purified PS2 S-layer with 10 mM EDTA or 10 mM EGTA and imaged the resulting specimens with cryoEM. We found intact S-layers in these treated samples, therefore, we have concluded that either cations do not play a role in stabilizing this S-layer or they are not accessible for chelation by EDTA or EGTA -

      Line 246: “To probe this further, we incubated purified PS2 S-layers with either 10 mM EDTA or 10 mM EGTA and examined the effect on the treated S-layers. Following the chemical treatment, S-layer lattices were still intact, with no observable differences under both conditions (Fig. S4I). This suggests that either these putative cations do not play a major role in stabilizing the PS2 S-layer or they are not accessible for chelation by EDTA or EGTA under the chosen experimental conditions.”

      and

      Figure S4. Cryo-EM of C. glutamicum cells. … I) Purified PS2 S-layer sheets incubated with EDTA (middle) and EGTA (right) show no discernible differences from native S-layers (left).

      • The anchoring of the S-layer to the characteristic mycomembrane is only discussed very briefly. As this is a unique feature, it would be of high interest to understand how the anchoring is different from other S-layer carrying Gram-positive/negative bacteria.

      We agree with the reviewer and have extended our discussion of this unique feature of the PS2 S-layer.

      Line 359: “…the length of the coiled-coil stalk and the MM-binding segment is highly conserved among PS2 homologs across species (Figs S5-S6). This is in line with the fact that the underlying cell envelope architecture, including the MM, is preserved among different Corynebacterium species, necessitating the conservation of the MM anchoring segments in PS2. The MM-binding segment is predicted by AlphaFold2 models to comprise an N-terminal hydrophobic α-helix and a short C-terminal amphipathic α-helix; however, in the MM, these may function as a single continuous helix. The MM-binding segment of PS2 homologs in Corynebacterium is consistently approximately 25 amino acid residues long, corresponding to a ~3.75 nm α-helix—sufficiently long to nearly traverse the 4–5 nm thickness of the MM. Notably, this segment includes the last residue of PS2, a phenylalanine (F), which is remarkably conserved across all PS2 homologs (Figs S5-S6). While the functional significance of this invariant phenylalanine residue remains unclear, the conservation of the preceding residues, particularly the penultimate residue, which is typically either a proline (P) or lysine (K), suggests a potential functional role. It is plausible that these terminal residues collectively contribute to the sorting, export, and insertion of PS2 into the MM or help ensure its stable anchoring within the lipid-rich MM.”

      and

      Line 444: “The PS2 S-layer protein has a distinctive mode of attachment to the prokaryotic cell envelope. In most archaea, S-layers are directly attached to the cytoplasmic membrane (Bharat et al., 2021), either through lipid modification of the SLP (von Kügelgen et al., 2021) or through the action of a secondary protein (von Kügelgen et al., 2024). In Gram-negative bacteria such as C. crescentus, S-layers are non-covalently attached to the O-antigen of lipopolysaccharide layer covering the outer membrane (von Kügelgen et al., 2020). In turn, in Gram-positive bacterial S-layers are non-covalently anchored via SLH domains to the PG-linked secondary cell wall polymers (Blackler et al., 2018). In other diderm bacteria that are positive for Gram-staining such as Deinococcus radiodurans, the SLP HPI (Bharat et al., 2023) is lipidated at its N-terminus (von Kügelgen et al., 2023), allowing the protein to interact with the cell membrane. In the case of C. glutamicum, the attachment of the PS2 S-layer is achieved through the insertion of the C-terminal hydrophobic helix into the MM, which is a distinctive feature for bacterial S-layers that have been studied in detail using structural biology.”

      • Remove the word "accurately" in the second sentence of the second paragraph in the abstract.

      Changed as requested.

      Line 28: “Our cellular imaging allowed us to map the different components of the cell envelope onto the tomographic density.”

      • Remove the word "strong" in the last sentence of the abstract.

      Done.

      Line 41: “This study, therefore, provides an experimental framework for understanding cell envelopes that contain mycolic acids.”

      • As this is a back-to-back submission, the manuscript from Sogues et al. should be cited.

      Done, as requested.

      Line 191: “Purified S-layers were deposited on cryo-EM grids and vitrified using methods previously described for other S-layers (von Kügelgen et al., 2023, 2024), and specifically for the C. glutamicum S-layer concurrently with this study (Johnston et al., 2024; Sogues et al., 2024).”

      and

      Line 474: “…Slightly at odds with the large pores, it has been shown that the presence of the PS2 S-layer renders cells more resistant towards lysozyme (Sogues et al., 2024; Theresia et al., 2018). Although lysozyme is much smaller than the pore sizes, it is possible that the S-layer might biochemically sequester such undesirable molecules.”

      Minor comments:

      • Line numbers are missing, making the manuscript more complicated to review.

      Sorry about that, the updated version of the manuscript has line numbers included.

      • In the abstract, in the last paragraph of the introduction, and in the first sentence of the discussion, the authors use the term "high-resolution" in conjunction with their cryo-electron tomography imaging. This might be correct if you compare the data to light microscopy or conventional EM imaging. However, given the fact that the authors also used single-particle cryoEM, their cryoET data cannot be called "high-resolution," and they should remove this term as used here.

      We agree with the reviewer and change the text accordingly:

      Line 28: “Our cellular imaging allowed us to map the different components of the cell envelope onto the tomographic density.”

      and

      Line 39: “Our structural and cellular data collectively provide a topography of the unusual C. glutamicum cell surface, features of which are shared by many pathogenic and microbiome-associated bacteria, as well as by several industrially significant bacterial species.”

      and

      Line 102: “Building on these foundational studies, we have used C. glutamicum as a model for MM-containing organisms to perform characterisation of this unusual cell envelope.”

      and

      Line 110: “By combining our S-layer structure with cryo-ET of the cell envelope and bioinformatics analyses, we provide further clues regarding the MM-anchoring mechanisms of the S-layer and offer insights into its conservation and evolution in corynebacteria.”

      and

      Line 124: “To overcome this limitation, we employed FIB milling to create thin sections of the cells, which allowed us to obtain images with enhanced contrast of the cell envelope.”

      and

      Line 401: “In this study, we visualized the C. glutamicum cell envelope by imaging FIB-milled cells using...”

      Reviewer #3 (Significance (Required)):

      The single-particle cryoEM and bioinformatics analysis are convincing, but this manuscript resides at a rather descriptive level on the S-layer of C. glutamicum and some major comments should be addressed.

      The findings in this manuscript are exciting for a specialized audience interested in bacterial cell surfaces/surface appendages and S-layers. On top, as C. glutamicum is widely used in biotechnological applications, the results have clear significance within this field.

      Contrary to what the authors claimed, the general insights gained on cell envelopes containing mycolic acids are limited. Only very few insights reported here will advance our understanding of the cell envelope of important human pathogens such as Mycobacterium tuberculosis, as this manuscript focuses on the S-layer, which is absent from these strains.

      Thank you for your comments, we have reworded the discussion section with more cautionary statements to present a balanced picture to readers of this manuscript.