- Sep 2013
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caseyboyle.net caseyboyle.net
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The "science of art" is a popular concept even today, but I understand his reasons to romanticize rhetoric
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So rhetoric and philosophy are nothing special, and those who say it is should stop.
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Isocrates has a real problem with braggarts and liars in his line of work, apparently
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Was Isocrates a popular guy in his time? One possible perception of this piece is with him as the envious scholar ill-distinguished amongst scholars with greater swarms of students, rather than the critical paragon.
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What I really get from this piece is the use of rhetorical manipulation to condemn the use of rhetorical manipulation.
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For ability, whether in speech or in any other activity, is found in those who are well endowed by nature and have been schooled by practical experience.
Isocrates's idea of 'being skillful,' which is composed of 'being naturally talented,' 'having learned,' and 'having practiced.'
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although exhorting others to study political discourse, neglected all the good things which this study affords, and became nothing more than professors of meddlesomeness and greed.(23)
hahahahaha. I love this. And also is pretty true.
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in a word, I hold that there does not exist an art of the kind which can implant sobriety and justice in depraved natures.
No universal truth.
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fitness
key word.
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For what has been said by one speaker is not equally useful for the speaker who comes after him; on the contrary, he is accounted most skilled in this art who speaks in a manner worthy of his subject and yet is able to discover in it topics which are nowise the same as those used by others.
differences in speeches and individual capability.
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since it has no such power, I could wish that this prating might cease. For I note that the bad repute which results therefrom does not affect the offenders only, but that all the rest of us who are in the same profession share in the opprobium.
Education has no power, shift to a different type.
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For the latter have no interest whatever in the truth,(12) but consider that they are masters of an art if they can attract great numbers of students by the smallness of their charges and the magnitude of their professions and get something out of them. For they are themselves so stupid and conceive others to be so dull that, although the speeches which they compose are worse than those which some laymen improvise, nevertheless they promise to make their students such clever orators that they will not overlook any of the possibilities which a subject affords
I think this is entertaining and comical, particularly applied to some of our politicians today.
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For it is not to be supposed that men who are honorable and just-dealing with others will be dishonest with the very preceptors who have made them what they are.
Dishonesty.
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although they set so insignificant a price on the whole stock of virtue and happiness, they pretend to wisdom and assume the right to instruct the rest of the world.
Imposters?
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But these professors have gone so far in their lack of scruple that they attempt to persuade our young men that if they will only study under them they will know what to do in life and through this knowledge will become happy and prosperous.
Reminds me of the American Dream....
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-not that he knew their minds but that he desired to show us that for mankind this power lies in the realms of the impossible.
power is unattainable, because there is no absolute truth?
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making greater promises than they can possibly fulfill
Rather use practical, external method.
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But in order that I may not appear to be breaking down the pretensions of others while myself making greater claims than are within my powers, I believe that the very arguments by which I myself was convinced will make it clear to others also that these things are true.
The author believes he has a convincing argument? He also believes that everyone else should agree with him based on the facts he presented?
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However, if it is my duty not only to rebuke others, but also to set forth my own views, I think all intelligent people will agree with me that while many of those who have pursued philosophy have remained in private life,(16) others, on the other hand, who have never taken lessons from any one of the sophists have become able orators and statesmen. For ability, whether in speech or in any other activity, is found in those who are well endowed by nature and have been schooled by practical experience.(17) Formal training makes such men more skilfull and more resourceful in discovering the possibilities of a subject; for it teaches them to take from a readier source the topics which they otherwise hit upon in haphazard fashion. But it cannot fully fashion men who are without natural aptitude into good debaters or writers, although it is capable of leading them on to self-improvement and to a greater degree of intelligence on many subjects.
This paragraph seems to be a good comparison to those who seek knowledge for its value of being used in a practical mean rather than seeking this knowledge for the value of money. Plato never enjoyed the idea of money existing because it has no functional value to be used. Thus those who seek philosophy in the private life seek this to become smarter or more intelligent for there own desire. It is like how many of us must go to college to obtain a degree to which the knowledge we obtain will be used to work and make money instead of using it to advance ourselves as human beings.
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For myself, I should have preferred above great riches that philosophy had as much power as these men claim; for, possibly, I should not have been the very last in the profession nor had the least share in its profits. But since it has no such power, I could wish that this prating might cease. For I note that the bad repute which results therefrom does not affect the offenders only, but that all the rest of us who are in the same profession share in the opprobium
It seems Plato is attacking the fact that the value of sophists and their teaching are nothing of worth. Even though many pay for the knowledge of becoming a sophist, there is no knowledge given or taken. The only value or worth taken is money. Which Plato hates the fact that people are being taught nothing, yet they still pay for it.
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Furthermore, although they say that they do not want money and speak contemptuously of wealth as filthy lucre, they hold their hands out for a trifling gain and promise to make their disciples all but immortal
It seems that it is being shown the Hypocrisy of these teachers and how they themselves are go against what they teach.
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If all who are engaged in the profession of education were willing to state the facts instead of making greater promises than they can possibly fulfill, they would not be in such bad repute with the lay-public
My question would be, if someone did state the facts would they have any one in the public left for them to use or educate?
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There's a certain sort of hubris with the Sophists, and rhetoricians in general which I find so fascinating- evidenced in our earlier readings, and this one as well.
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And yet those who desire to follow the true precepts of this discipline may, if they will, be helped more speedily towards honesty of character(24) than towards facility in oratory.
This presupposes an inherent truth.
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For I hold that to obtain a knowledge of the elements out of which we make and compose all discourses is not so very difficult if anyone entrusts himself, not to those who make rash promises, but to those who have some knowledge of these things.
How do we know that all Sophists lack experience and are full of only empty promises?
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I think all intelligent people will agree with me
rhetorical device
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But men who inculcate virtue and sobriety--is it not absurd if they do not trust in their own students before all others?
Why? Who's to say their students have learned the lessons they tried to teach them?
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applying the analogy of an art with hard and fast rules to a creative process.
An "analogy of art" and not the art itself? Sounds similar to something else we've read.
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oblivious of the fact that the arts are made great, not by those who are without scruple in boasting about them, but by those who are able to discover all of the resources which each art affords.
"arts are made great" by "those whoa re able to discover." An interesting turn of phrase to be sure.
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Homer, who has been conceded the highest reputation for wisdom, has pictured even the gods as at times debating among themselves about the future
When considering the style of rhetoric we have seen so far--that of the law courts and arguing for/against--the image of the gods also playing out that same scenario is striking. "Debating the future" is a quite generative turn of phrase.
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Formal training makes such men more skilfull and more resourceful in discovering the possibilities of a subject;
Education prepares people for the future and makes them more intelligent. Going to school teaches you about resources that you have at your fingertips but may not otherwise know how to access
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I think all intelligent people will agree with me that while many of those who have pursued philosophy have remained in private life,(16) others, on the other hand, who have never taken lessons from any one of the sophists have become able orators and statesmen.
Politicians have people coaching them to be better, I don't think they actually study this stuff. If Joe the plumber had the same debate training that President Obama and Mitt Romney had, I'm sure he would have sounded like a Presidential Candidate rather than an Average Joe from Ohio.
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I should have preferred above great riches that philosophy had as much power as these men claim;
If he is saying that he would rather be rich than perceived to be a great philosopher, I agree.
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For they are themselves so stupid and conceive others to be so dull that, although the speeches which they compose are worse than those which some laymen improvise, nevertheless they promise to make their students such clever orators that they will not overlook any of the possibilities which a subject affords
It sounds like the author is saying that some people are marketing themselves as being able to provide a great education when in actuality they are not intelligent enough to be speaking. How can they promise to make students into something that they themselves are not?
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But these professors have gone so far in their lack of scruple that they attempt to persuade our young men that if they will only study under them they will know what to do in life and through this knowledge will become happy and prosperous.
Society tells us now that in order to be successful you must go to college. Students are maxing themselves out to attend undergraduate, graduate, and law schools only to realize that they cannot get a job.
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in a word, I hold that there does not exist an art of the kind which can implant sobriety and justice in depraved natures. Nevertheless, I do think that the study of political discourse can help more than any other thing to stimulate and form such qualities of character
Conclusion: Rhetoric (experience or natural talent) cannot be taught but knowledge can.
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But it cannot fully fashion men who are without natural aptitude into good debaters or writers, although it is capable of leading them on to self-improvement and to a greater degree of intelligence on many subjects
Is Isocrates saying that rhetoricians have to be rhetoricians by nature, thus teaching rhetoric does not make people rhetoricians?
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For what has been said by one speaker is not equally useful for the speaker who comes after him
This is exactly what Socrates was pointing out in the talk with Gorgias, using an example of cookery.
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the arts are made great, not by those who are without scruple in boasting about them, but by those who are able to discover all of the resources which each art affords
The definition of arts. Both Isocrates and Socrates claim that only complete knowledge can meet the definition of arts.
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but consider that they are masters of an art if they can attract great numbers of students by the smallness of their charges and the magnitude of their professions and get something out of them.
This is similar to Socrates's claim.
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Notes
Whose notes are these?
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But in order that I may not appear to be breaking down the pretensions of others while myself making greater claims than are within my powers, I believe that the very arguments by which I myself was convinced will make it clear to others also that these things are true.
Qualifying statement: In other words, speaking from experience rather than conjecture.
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I hold that there does not exist an art of the kind which can implant sobriety and justice in depraved natures
Distinction of "class" - those who can be taught from those who lack sufficient innate moral character? The idea that people are born to either rise or fall.
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When all of these requisites are found together, then the devotees of philosophy will achieve complete success; but according as any one of the things which I have mentioned is lacking, to this extent must their disciples of necessity fall below the mark.
Attempting to establish a standard of formal education, pretense for outlining "Course Objectives" that adhere to a set of institutionalized standards.
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I think all intelligent people will agree with me
appeal to ethos
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More than that, they do not attribute any of this power either to the practical experience or to the native ability of the student, but undertake to transmit the science of discourse as simply as they would teach the letters of the alphabet, not having taken trouble to examine into the nature of each kind of knowledge, but thinking that because of the extravagance of their promises they themselves will command admiration and the teaching of discourse will be held in higher esteem--oblivious of the fact that the arts are made great, not by those who are without scruple in boasting about them, but by those who are able to discover all of the resources which each art affords.
Basically arguing that they are simply bs artists, and teachers of the same.
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But it is not these sophists alone who are open to criticism, but also those who profess to teach political discourse.(11) For the latter have no interest whatever in the truth,(12) but consider that they are masters of an art if they can attract great numbers of students by the smallness of their charges and the magnitude of their professions and get something out of them.
Broadening his dissent and attack to include teachers of political discourse?
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promise to make their disciples all but immortal!
...by claiming the education will insure a prosperous future for the student.
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But what is most ridiculous of all is that they distrust those from whom they are to get this money--they distrust, that is to say, the very men to whom they are about to deliver the science of just dealing--and they require that the fees advanced by their students be entrusted for safe keeping
Second part of argument: I assume this argument stands on the normative that payment of services is due upon receipt and approval of the end product. If one asked for payment before delivery of items or services, it would be seen as an attempt to deceive.
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"Why, if they were to sell any other commodity for so trifling a fraction of its worth they would not deny their folly;
Asserting that if the education were as valuable as they claim, they would charge accordingly, hence the falsity of the claim is evident.
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they attempt to persuade our young men that if they will only study under them they will know what to do in life and through this knowledge will become happy and prosperous
What he means by pretending to know the future?
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But these professors have gone so far in their lack of scruple that they attempt to persuade our young men that if they will only study under them they will know what to do in life and through this knowledge will become happy and prosperous.
His main point, I think, is that the "education" that a sophist professes to impart on the student is a useful commodity and worthy of payment based on the assertion that it will benefit the student in the "future". His tone seems intent on stirring discontent, to raise an emotional response.
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If all who are engaged in the profession of education were willing to state the facts instead of making greater promises than they can possibly fulfill, they would not be in such bad repute with the lay-public.
First part of argument: Challenges the foundation of claim that their "goods" will be of future benefit to the student.
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When, therefore, the layman puts all these things together and observes that the teachers of wisdom and dispensers of happiness are themselves in great want but exact only a small fee from their students, that they are on the watch for contradictions in words(10) but are blind to inconsistencies in deeds,
An appealing to the ethos of the common man, argues that they do not lead by example; knowledge vs. experience. There is no apparent evidence that the "goods" will as claimed produce happiness and prosperity, since the Sophists are essentially vagabonds. Further, claims their own deeds are inscrutable in attempting to secure payment up front, so how can they impart scruples, let alone, truth and wisdom?
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they pretend to have knowledge of the future"
By claiming that the tutoring will ensure prosperous and happy lives for the pupil in the future, but present no evidence in the present to support the claim.
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For it is not to be supposed that men who are honorable and just-dealing with others will be dishonest with the very preceptors who have made them what they are.
Asserting that requiring payment be held in advance is unethical.
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And let no one suppose that I claim that just living can be taught;(25) for, in a word, I hold that there does not exist an art of the kind which can implant sobriety and justice in depraved natures.
He is saying that no one can be taught to be a philosopher?
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Formal training makes such men more skilfull and more resourceful in discovering the possibilities of a subject; for it teaches them to take from a readier source the topics which they otherwise hit upon in haphazard fashion.
This sounds like the Presidential debates. Both of the candidates are always very well prepared and don't seem to mess up. I think anyone can be a great orator if they are given the same amount of practice and experience as a Presidential candidate.
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many of those who have pursued philosophy have remained in private life,(16) others, on the other hand, who have never taken lessons from any one of the sophists have become able orators and statesmen.
Why is this? Do politicians and orators not have a moral compass and private philosophers do?
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For what has been said by one speaker is not equally useful for the speaker who comes after him; on the contrary, he is accounted most skilled in this art who speaks in a manner worthy of his subject and yet is able to discover in it topics which are nowise the same as those used by others
Nothing is equally useful for everyone. Some people might find some information helpful, while others might find the information useless because they are already familiar with the subject.
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I should have preferred above great riches that philosophy had as much power as these men claim;
Is the author saying he would rather be rich than be a great philosopher? I agree.
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observes that the teachers of wisdom and dispensers of happiness are themselves in great want but exact only a small fee from their students
There is a great market for teachers but many people point out how little that they get paid. The salary discrepancies between professional athletes and teachers is a hot button issue. Teachers are educating the future of the country and pro-athletes only play a sport. While many people believe this is unfair it goes back to the concept of supply and demand. There are much fewer pro-athletes than teachers, even if their jobs are not as important to society.
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But these professors have gone so far in their lack of scruple that they attempt to persuade our young men that if they will only study under them they will know what to do in life and through this knowledge will become happy and prosperous
This is what a lot of high school teachers tell students, if you do not go to college you will not be successful. Online news articles constantly have stories about how you can make close to $1 million more in your lifetime than someone who does not go to college. There are a lot of really successful people who did not go to or dropped out of college, like Steve Jobs and Mark Zuckerburg.
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created the impression that those who choose a life of careless indolence are better advised than those who devote themselves to serious study
It sounds like this is saying that society believes that people who are lazy are making better decisions than those who chose to go to school and work hard. I know some people who think that when people don't go to college they are not working hard. Some people cannot afford to go to college and have to work even harder to get ahead.
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Why, if they were to sell any other commodity for so trifling a fraction of its worth they would not deny their folly
It is interesting that Isocrates considers the Sophists as salesmen of what he believes to be a worthless commodity. It is ironic because Isocrates, himself being a Sophist, does not mention much about his own pedagogical methods. He does not offer much in the way of advice and suggestions for improvement; only criticism.
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Homer, who has been conceded the highest reputation for wisdom, has pictured even the gods as at times debating among themselves about the future(5) --not that he knew their minds but that he desired to show us that for mankind this power lies in the realms of the impossible.
This is an example of ethos. Isocrates is appealing to the authority, or high regard in those days, of Homer to suggest that even the gods don't know everything. Therefore, no man can claim to either. This is like using a celebrity to endorse a product. In this instance, Isocrates uses Homer as if Homer would also frown down upon the 'other' Sophist teachers, so everyone else should too.
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caseyboyle.net caseyboyle.netAntidosis117
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Those states in which an occasional citizen is put to death without a trial we condemn as unfit to live in, yet are blind to the fact that we are in the same case when we do not hear with equal good will both sides of the contest.
He cries hypocrisy here, a strong rhetorical device. Although I'm not sure whether this would make the jury rethink their impressions or make them more biased against him.
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For I know that I have spoken with so just and clear a conscience both towards the city and our ancestors, and above all towards the gods, that if it be true that the gods concern themselves at all with human affairs I am sure that they are not indifferent to my present situation.
Now that is some self-confidence.
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Most men see in such studies nothing but empty talk and hair-splitting; for none of these disciplines has any useful application either to private or to public affairs; nay, they are not even remembered for any length of time after they are learned because they do not attend us through life nor do they lend aid in what we do, but are wholly divorced from our necessities.
This reminds me of how underpaid and under-appreciated teachers are. I realize they are completely different situations (and I believe teaching is one of the most important professions!), but the language is similar to the debate about teachers. Everyone agrees they are important, but it's difficult to get good teachers because of the terrible pay. The difference here of course is that many people decry the Sophists as not important. But what the people say about Sophists feels like how teachers are actually treated in our educational system.
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But I now find myself in a curious position; for I am going to be frank even if some will say that I shift my ground too easily. A little while ago I said that many good men had been misled about philosophy, and are consequently harshly disposed toward it.
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people nowadays do not look at things in the same way as those who lived in the city in former times.
funny how different things are now
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Now for this I deserved praise rather than prejudice.
strategy
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Now in the introduction and in the opening words of that discourse I reproach monarchs because they who more than others ought to cultivate their understanding are less educated than men in private station.
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They characterize men who ignore our practical needs and delight in the mental juggling of the ancient sophists as “students of philosophy,” but refuse this name to whose who pursue and practise those studies which will enable us to govern wisely both our own households and the commonwealth—which should be the objects of our toil, of our study, and of our every act.
Pointing out the idea of philosophy should be reconsidered.
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I beg you now to listen to my defense,
I feel a lot of rhetoric coming on
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I want neither to descend to the level of men whom envy has made blind nor to censure men who, although they do no actual harm to their pupils are less able to benefit them than are other teachers. I shall, however, say a few words about them, first because they also have paid their compliments to me; second, in order that you, being better informed as to their powers, may estimate us justly in relation to each other; and, furthermore, that I may show you clearly that we who are occupied with political discourse and whom they call contentious are more considerate than they; for although they are always saying disparaging things of me, I shall not answer them in kind but shall confine myself to the simple truth.
Truth... but with an agenda. Although I recognize it is impossible to not have an agenda when defending oneself.
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eulogy
there is a lot of rhetoric in a Eulogy
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I stood fairly well in the opinion of all the lay public.
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For men who have been gifted with eloquence by nature and by fortune, are governed in what they say by chance, and not by any standard of what is best, whereas those who have gained this power by the study of philosophy and by the exercise of reason never speak without weighing their words, and so are less often in error as to a course of action. Therefore, it behoves all men to want to have many of their youth engaged in training to become speakers
Proposing the need of the proper education system of rhetoric.
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Accordingly, I am going to lay bare to you the thoughts which have now come into my mind.
I recognize that this is a persuasive rhetorical strategy, but it feels slimy to me. Isocrates is clearly not just laying bear his mind or he wouldn't have put so much effort into such an elaborate speech.
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my lack of experience in contests of this kind
Except that he's a rhetorician. Aren't they supposed to be skilled at talking on any topic?
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he expected that if he won in the debate with me, whom he calls the teacher of other men, everyone would regard his power as irresistible.
Isn't that what Isocrates is doing? Why else defend yourself in a mock trial other than to prove your superior rhetorical skill?
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the power to speak well and think right will reward the man who approaches the art of discourse with love of wisdom and love of honor
The power to speak is love.
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the stronger a man's desire to persuade his hearers, the more zealously will he strive to be honorable and to have the esteem of his fellow-citizens
The power of speech and love again.
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we gain the power, after being exercised and sharpened on these disciplines, of grasping and learning more easily and more quickly those subjects which are of more importance and of greater value.
The principle of Isocrates's school.
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But when my eyes were opened, as I have said, to the fact that a greater number than I supposed had mistaken ideas about me, I began to ponder how I could show to them and to posterity the truth about my character, my life, and the education to which I am devoted, and not suffer myself to be condemned on these issues without a trial nor to remain, as I had just been, at the mercy of my habitual calumniators.
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We ought, therefore, to think of the art of discourse just as we think of the other arts, and not to form opposite judgements about similar things, nor show ourselves intolerant toward that power which, of all the faculties which belong to the nature of man, is the source of most of our blessings. For in the other powers which we possess, as I have already said on a former occasion,125 we are in no respect superior to other living creatures
This makes Isocrates different from other rhetoricians.
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I should answer that natural ability is paramount and comes before all else
Natural ability is most important in Isocrates's school.
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first of all, have a natural aptitude for that which they have elected to do; secondly, they must submit to training and master the knowledge of their particular subject, whatever it may be in each case; and, finally, they must become versed and practised in the use and application of their art
Against the Sophists (16).
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I marvel at men who felicitate those who are eloquent by nature on being blessed with a noble gift, and yet rail at those who wish to become eloquent, on the ground that they desire an immoral and debasing education. Pray, what that is noble by nature becomes shameful and base when one attains it by effort?
Rhetorical question, appeals to American ideals
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But I do hold that people can become better and worthier if they conceive an ambition to speak well,137 if they become possessed of the desire to be able to persuade their hearers, and, finally, if they set their hearts on seizing their advantage—I do not mean “advantage” in the sense given to that word by the empty-minded, but advantage in the true meaning of that term;138 and that this is so I think I shall presently make clear.
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rivate or to public affairs; nay, they are not even remembered for any length of time after they are learned because they do not attend us through life nor do they lend aid in what we do, but are wholly divorced from our necessities.
Rhetoric helps us in all aspects of life unlike geometry, life shaping tool
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We ought, therefore, to think of the art of discourse just as we think of the other arts, and not to form opposite judgements about similar things, nor show ourselves intolerant toward that power which, of all the faculties which belong to the nature of man, is the source of most of our blessings. For in the other powers which we possess, as I have already said on a former occasion,125 we are in no respect superior to other living creatures; nay, we are inferior to many in swiftness and in strength and in other resources; but, because there has been implanted in us the power to persuade each other and to make clear to each other whatever we desire, not only have we escaped the life of wild beasts, but we have come together and founded cities and made laws and invented arts; and, generally speaking, there is no institution devised by man which the power of speech has not helped us to establish. For this it is which has laid down laws concerning things just and unjust, and things honorable and base; and if it were not for these ordinances we should not be able to live with one another. It is by this also that we confute the bad and extol the good. Through this we educate the ignorant and appraise the wise
The good of rhetoric, a blessing which enables society and creates possibility
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But as a symptom, not only of their confusion of mind, but of their contempt for the gods, they recognize that Persuasion is one of the gods, and they observe that the city makes sacrifices to her every year,121 but when men aspire to share the power which the goddess possesses
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irritated, jealous, perturbed in spirit, and are much in the same state of mind as lovers ar
power of love again applied to effects of rhetoric (Gorgias)
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First of all was Solon.
Appeal to powerful authority figures
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No, it is evident that these students cross the sea and pay out money and go to all manner of trouble because they think that they themselves will be the better for it and that the teachers here are much more intelligent than those in their own countries. This ought to fill all Athenians with pride and make them appreciate at their worth those who have given to the city this reputation.
Appealing to patriotism, national identity, and authority figures
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These charges are of two kinds. Some of them say that the profession of the sophist is nothing but sham and chicane, maintaining that no kind of education has ever been discovered which can improve a man's ability to speak or his capacity for handling affairs, and that those who excel in these respects owe their superiority to natural gifts; while others acknowledge that men who take this training are more able, but complain that they are corrupted and demoralized by it
Charges against rhetoric
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first of all, have a natural aptitude for that which they have elected to do; secondly, they must submit to training and master the knowledge of their particular subject, whatever it may be in each case; and, finally, they must become versed and practised in the use and application of their art; for only on these conditions can they become fully competent and pre-eminent in any line of endeavor
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equire them to combine in practice the particular things which they have learned, in order that they may grasp them more firmly and bring their theories into closer touch with the occasions for applying the
Relativity, trained to fit to particular
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physical training for the body, of which gymnastics is a part, and, for the mind, philosophy, which I am going to explain. These are twin arts—parallel and complementar
Twin arts for two parts
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It is acknowledged that the nature of man is compounded of two parts, the physical and the mental
Physical and mental main parts of body
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It is the ability to collect an army which is adequate to the war in hand, and to organize and to employ it to good advantage.
A theory of good writing (collect evidence and organize them in order).
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First of all is the ability to know against whom and with whose help to make war; for this is the first requisite of good strategy, and if one makes any mistake about this, the result is inevitably a war which is disadvantageous, difficult, and to no purpose.
A theory of good writing. (Know the audience.)
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I maintain also that if you compare me with those who profess54 to turn men to a life of temperance and justice, you will find that my teaching is more true and more profitable than theirs.
Isocrates vs. others
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what discourse could have a nobler or a greater theme than one which summons the Hellenes to make an expedition against the barbarians and counsels them to be of one mind among themselves? Well, then, in the first speech I have discoursed upon these themes, and in those later quoted upon matters which, though less lofty, are by no means less fruitful or less advantageous to our city. And you will appreciate the power of these discourses if you will read them side by side with others written by orators of recognized ability and service to mankind
Isocrates's belief in discourse as a powerful tool.
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I detach one part from another, and breaking up the discourse, as it were, into what we call general heads, I strive to express in a few words each bit of counsel which I have to offer.48 But my reason for writing upon this subject was that I thought my advice would be the best means of aiding his understanding and at the same time the readiest means of publishing my own principles
This sounds like the beginning of writing a summary.
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while still others have occupied themselves with dialogue,40 and are called dialecticians
An irony to Plato?
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I shall never be found to have had anything to do with speeches for the courts.33 You can judge this from my habits of life, from which, indeed, you can get at the truth much better than from the lips of my accusers
Writing vs. Speeches
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no citizen has ever been harmed either by my “cleverness” or by my writings
Pointing out that Isocrates's school is not for deceiving people?
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For I have schooled myself to avoid giving any offense to others, and, when I have been wronged by others, not to seek revenge in court but to adjust the matter in dispute by conferring with their friends.
The difference between Isocrates and others.
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show to them and to posterity the truth about my character, my life, and the education to which I am devoted
The purpose of this writing.
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I seem to be unfortunate, and that these people appear to be boorish and churlish toward their fellow-citizens
appeal to Pity
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I consider that this kind of life is more agreeable than that of men who are busy with a multitude of things, and that it is, besides, more in keeping with the career to which I have dedicated myself from the first
Establishes his motivations as trustworthy
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”
Uses a quote so he doesn't have to say these things about himself, gives him more credibility, less prideful, more easily accepted from outside source
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for the power to speak in any set order has escaped me.
Now pretends to have the same problem and Tim
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He was a good man and true, a credit to Athens and to Hellas, but he could not lower himself to the level of people who are intolerant of their natural superiors.
Actually hurts rhetoricians shows that good true men can't defend themselves but those who bend the public to their needs do
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For if you please the people in Athens, no matter what you do they will not judge your conduct by the facts but will construe it in a light favorable to you; and if you make mistakes, they will overlook them, while if you succeed, they will exalt your success to the high heaven
favor is more important than truth
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for he was by nature as inept in courting the favor of men as he was gifted in handling affairs.
We cannot succeed despite out virtues if we cannot persuade, gain favor
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the force of his own character in order to win the good will of the rest of the world, believing that this is a greater and nobler kind of generalship than to conquer many cities many times in battle.
Better to be inspired by admiration than by fear
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It is the ability to collect an army which is adequate to the war in hand, and to organize and to employ it to good advantage.
- Adequate force applied well
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First of all is the ability to know against whom and with whose help to make war;
- Know your enemy
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What, then, are the requisites of a good general and what ability do they involve?
Qualities of a good leader
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The facts, then, about Timotheus I can put most concisely and in the most comprehensive terms by saying that he has taken more cities by storm than any other man has ever done, and I include all generals who have led armies into the field whether from Athens or from the rest of Hellas
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I am not guilty of corrupting my associate
Men are in control of themselves and are honorable or not on their own account, not another's
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All these men were crowned by Athens with chaplets of gold,57 not because they were covetous of other people's possessions, but because they were honorable men and had spent large sums of their private fortunes upon the city.
Not valued for virtues but for wealth. This seems to work against him. High connections
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yet not one of them will be found to have uttered a word of complaint about his sojourn with me
Needs to qualify claims. Doesn't prove, just insists
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ans and counsels them to be of one mind among themselves?
Tailors argument to audience, appeals to common ideals
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but that those discourses are better and more profitable which denounce our present mistakes than those which praise our past deeds, and those which counsel us what we ought to do than those which recount ancient history
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I am wont to deal with princes as well as with private men
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I detach one part from another, and breaking up the discourse, as it were, into what we call general heads, I strive to express in a few words each bit of counsel which I have to offer.4
Organization
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consider well whether I appear to you to corrupt the young by my words, or, on the contrary, to inspire them to a life of valor and of dangers endured for their country
Either/or fallacy. Aren't there more options
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Developing this theme, I show that Athens has been author of all the advantages which the Hellenes now enjoy. Then, having concluded the account of these benefactions, and desiring to show more convincingly that leadership in the expedition is the right of Athens, I further try to prove that far greater honor is due to her for the perils she has faced in war than for her other benefactions.
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I shall present in evidence the actual words
Insists that ultimate evidence is words, truth in words, yet he only gives part of his words. Misleading?
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For I ask you not only to show me no mercy, if the oratory which I cultivate is harmful, but to inflict on me the extreme penalty if it is not superior to any other.
Assertive, persuasive, entirely invested makes the blame harder to inflict
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that while those who are thought to be adept in court procedure are tolerated only for the day when they are engaged in the trial, the devotees of philosophy are honored and held in high esteem in every society and at all times; that, furthermore, while the former come to be despised and decried as soon as they are seen two or three times in court, the latter are admired more and more as they become better and more widely known; and, finally, that while clever pleaders are sadly unequal to the higher eloquence, the exponents of the latter could, if they so desired, easily master also the oratory of the courts.
Eloquence, tools good for every occasion, general, applied to everything. Linked to power
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First of all, then, you should know that there are no fewer branches of composition in prose than in verse.
Beginning to define, categorize, and teach. Switch in tone
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Be assured, therefore, that you shall hear from me the whole truth, and in this spirit give me your attention.
Building credibility, trying to appeal to truth, honesty, relate to audience
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whom he calls the teacher of other men, everyone would regard his power as irresistible.
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Watching over them and training them in this manner, both the teachers of gymnastic and the teachers of discourse are able to advance their pupils to a point where they are better men and where they are stronger in their thinking or in the use of their bodies.
Outlines a consistency here between training the body and training the mind.
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If, therefore, I were to agree with my accuser and concede his claim that I am the “cleverest” of men and that I have never had an equal as a writer of the kind of speeches which are offensive to you, it would be much more just to give me credit for being an honest man than to punish me; for when a man has superior talents whether for speech or for action, one cannot fairly charge it to anything but fortune, but when a man makes good and temperate use of the power which nature has given him, as in my own case, all the world ought in justice to commend his character.
Hahaha! It seems that he is the "cleverest of men, this is a beautiful way of showing how his accuser has faults in his arguments, by showing how stupid his accuser is when the argument is made to attack a man who "makes good and temperate use of the power which nature has given him". No man would ever want to accuse this character because they would be deemed as bad.
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Here in the indictment my accuser endeavors to vilify me, charging that I corrupt young men30 by teaching them to speak and gain their own advantage in the courts contrary to justice,
This is what he is being charged for. This is going to be an interesting argument. What is odd to me, even though he states that they are envious. What any one accuse of him of this crime, if envious; why would one challenge such a figure who dedicated his whole life to studying, understanding and practicing discourse?
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for the men who have chosen to neglect what is their own and to plot against what belongs to others do not keep their hands off citizens who live soberly and bring before you only those who do evil; on the contrary, they advertise their powers in their attacks upon men who are entirely innocent, and so get more money from those who are clearly guilty.
It seems Athens and like many other countries, cities, towns and village; there is always corruption involving money and evil.
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again in the past Athens has so deeply repented18 the judgements which have been pronounced in passion and without proof that not long after the events she has become eager to punish her deceivers, and would gladly have seen the victims of calumny in happier circumstances than before.
It seems that in Athens many times the truth has been smothered. I suppose Rhetoric or the art of discourse was used unjustly, to deceive the truth.
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it is as if one were to charge another with breaking into a temple, while showing in his own hands plunder stolen from the gods.
This is a good analogy to show attack the many points that accuse him of being a wrong character.
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And as I kept thinking upon it, I came ever to the same conclusion, namely, that the only way in which I could accomplish this was to compose a discourse which would be, as it were, a true image of my thought and of my whole life; for I hoped that this would serve both as the best means of making known the truth about me and, at the same time, as a monument, after my death, more noble than statues of bronze.
It seems he was attacked for what he is and what he has done. Yet, I assume he did not care for other's opinions. But, he does care about what the future will think about him.
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the best and fairest defense, in my opinion, is that which enables the judges to know the facts, so far as this is possible, in regard to the issues on which they are to vote, and which leaves no room for them to go astray in their judgement or to be in doubt as to which party speaks the truth
I like this idea.
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believing that those who excel in this field are wiser and better and of more use to the world than men who speak well in court
This is similar to what Socrates said.
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people do not study under me what my accuser says they do
Interesting point.
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A solid defense- that the supposed victims of Isocrates, according to him, are on his side of this trial.
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But I urge all who intend to acquaint themselves with my speech, first, to make allowance, as they listen to it, for the fact that it is a mixed discourse, composed with an eye to all these subjects; next, to fix their attention even more on what is about to be said than on what has been said before; and, lastly, not to seek to run through the whole of it at the first sitting, but only so much of it as will not fatigue the audience.16
Pay attention to what is about to be said is a never ending task.
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An appeal to the emotions of the judges, then? A passionate display of pathos to enrage Isocrates' jury?
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The two-faced nature of Athenian justice?
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Then again you will find associated with them either men who are themselves in evil case or who want to ruin others, while in my company are those who of all the Hellenes lead the most untroubled lives.
Defends himself based on past history and those he associates with, typical of a court case
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o judge me to be the kind of man which the accusation and the defense in this trial will show me to be; for if you decide the case on this basis, you will have the credit of judging honorably and in accordance with the law, while I, for my part, shall obtain my complete deserts.
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Here in the indictment my accuser endeavors to vilify me, charging that I corrupt young men30 by teaching them to speak and gain their own advantage in the courts contrary to justice, while in his speech he makes me out to be a man whose equal has never been known either among those who hang about the law-courts or among the devotees of philosophy; for he declares that I have had as my pupils not only private persons but orators, generals, kings, and despots;31 and that I have received from them and am now receiving enormous sums of money
Shows how people view rhetoric and its link to corruption
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in a word, it smothers truth, and pouring false ideas into our ears, it leaves no man among our citizens secure from an unjust death
Slippery slope fallacy. Motivating by fear
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it is not yet easy for the jury to decide from what the first speaker has said whether he has based his arguments on the truth; nay, they will be fortunate if they are able to draw a just conclusion from the arguments of both sides
Shows that truth doesn't necessarily emerge from our judicial system.
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in order that if I shall appear to speak well, I may show that I am subject to the charges which he has made about my cleverness; while if it turns out that I speak less ably than he has led you to expect, you may think that mine is the weaker cause.
The problem of rhetoric as a whole. There needs to be a balance.
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I consider that in all the world there are none so depraved and so deserving of the severest punishment as those who have the audacity to charge others with the offenses of which they themselves are guilty
hypocrisy comes from hipocrisis which means actor, speech, mimesis
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But it occurred to me that if I were to adopt the fiction of a trial and of a suit brought against m
Can fiction generate a "true image" or truth? What is the relationship between truth and fiction
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a true image of my thought and of my whole life; for I hoped that this would serve both as the best means of making known the truth about me and, at the same time, as a monument, after my death, more noble than statues of bronze
Can we trust a "true image" of Isocrates if it is written by himself? Especially if his goal is to be remembered as noble and great?
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saying that it has to do with writing speeches for the courts,5 very much as one might have the effrontery to call Pheidias, who wrought our statue of Athena,6 a doll-maker, or say that Zeuxis and Parrhasius7 practiced the same art as the sign-painters
effective metaphor. I like his sarcasm and high opinion of himself.
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novel and differen
generating interest
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But you have heard also from my accuser that I have received many great presents from Nicocles, the king of the Salaminians.39 And yet, can any one of you be persuaded that Nicocles made me these presents in order that he might learn how to plead cases in cour
This ties into a similar concept above in relation to Burden of Proof. Hearing one side and neglecting the other. The finger-pointer should be providing evidence, not leaving it up to the accused to prove they are innocent. This ties into Causation/Correlation.
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Let me ask you, however, not to pay any attention to what you have heard about me in the past from my would-be slanderers and calumniators
A reminder of what was said above. Reaffirming the listener/reader to ignore the past and what was said and focus on what is being said. Repetition... good? and... oh no... what have I become?! Agreeing with the use of repeating?! BOYLE YOU'VE TAINTED ME
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Indeed no one may rely on the honesty of his life as a guarantee that he will be able to live securely in Athens; for the men who have chosen to neglect what is their own and to plot against what belongs to others do not keep their hands off citizens who live soberly and bring before you only those who do evil; on the contrary, they advertise their powers in their attacks upon men who are entirely innocent, and so get more money from those who are clearly guilty.
I know this is going somewhere, Boyle. So please don't take this as a comment like hating repetition. Okay, we good? Good. So far this entire reading is nothing but Tu Quoque. I am sure Isocrates is going to eventually explain himself, but this is all the logical fallacy of using critique to critique. Don't yell at me!
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that when the accuser makes his charges we give ear to whatever he may say; but when the accused endeavors to refute them, we sometimes do not endure even to hear his voic
This is a large problem that we even see regularly today. We tend to believe one side (usually the finger pointers) and discredit the defense. Confirmation Bias, you are a jerk.
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Ours is a shameful state of inconsistency; for while it is acknowledged that in our life in general we are the most merciful20 and gentle of all the Hellenes, yet in the conduct of our trials here we manifestly give the lie to this reputation.
I like and hate this statement at the same time. I understand the point is to say "Look, we're really cool and polite and we even let kids borrow our Xbox from time to time ALL the time!"to create a soft blow for "Yeah, but we perpetuate this crap and give it merit. We know it's happening, but we can't be bothered." It might slip-past of a lot of readers.
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I consider that in all the world there are none so depraved and so deserving of the severest punishment as those who have the audacity to charge others with the offenses of which they themselves are guilty.
Not sure if Overstatement because he's really mad or really thinks hypocrisy is the worst thing on the planet. insert Suspicious Fry Meme here
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eulogy
I really like the use of "Eulogy" here. This is a word that has a lot of connotation. Obviously, it is something that happens after one's death, but it also is from someone who knows the deceased well. It's also something look highly upon, like being on a soapbox or in the spot-light.
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for I hoped that this would serve both as the best means of making known the truth about me and, at the same time, as a monument, after my death, more noble than statues of bronze.12
"Writing is perhaps the greatest of human inventions, binding together people who never knew each other, citizens of distant epochs. Books break the shackles of time." - Carl Sagan. This was the first thing I thought of here. Not just self-representation, but the power of words so that the idea and thought can remain throughout time. And space. Either that, or I wanted to work Carl Sagan into this conversation some how.
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I were to agree with my accuser and concede his claim that I am the “cleverest” of men and that I have never had an equal as a writer of the kind of speeches which are offensive to you, it would be much more just to give me credit for being an honest man than to punish me;
antistrephon: an argument that turns one's opponent's argument or proofs to one's own purpose
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for if any man had been wronged by me, even though he might have held his tongue up till now, he would not have neglected the present opportunity, but would have come forward to denounce me or bear witness against me
First defensive point
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while my alleged activities in the law-courts would stir up your anger and hate
or indignatio (arousing the audiences scorn and indignation)
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if you will only hear me with good will, I am very confident that those who have been misled as to my pursuits and have been won over by my would-be slanderers will promptly change their views, while those who think of me as I really am will be still more confirmed in their opinion.
He has artfully built up to this statement.
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I who have lived to this advanced age without complaint from anyone could not be in greater jeopardy if I had wronged all the world.
Reoccuring theme: referencing his age and (up till now) his innocent dealings throughout his life.
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while we take our solemn oath at the beginning of each year that we will hear impartially both accusers and accused, we depart so far from this in practice, that when the accuser makes his charges we give ear to whatever he may say; but when the accused endeavors to refute them, we sometimes do not endure even to hear his voice.2
An observation on human behavior. A cry for the importance of impartialness in the court.
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ou should remember this and not trust too hastily the assertions of the accuser nor hear the defendant in uproar and anger.19 Ours is a shameful state of inconsistency; for while it is acknowledged that in our life in general we are the most merciful20 and gentle of all the Hellenes, yet in the conduct of our trials here we manifestly give the lie to this reputation
logos
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it smothers truth, and pouring false ideas into our ears, it leaves no man among our citizens secure from an unjust death
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I beg you, then, neither to credit nor to discredit what has been said to you until you have heard to the end what I also have to say
Ethos appeal.
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lastly, not to seek to run through the whole of it at the first sitting, but only so much of it as will not fatigue the audience.
My God! It's just as Casey said!
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For this informer, himself delivering a composed speech, has said more in complaint of my compositions than upon all other points
argumentum ad hominem
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caseyboyle.net caseyboyle.netGorgias17
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evil
Evil to him, the tyrant or rhetorician, rather than some general idea of evil.
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Then you must prove that the rhetorician is not a fool, and that rhetoric is an art and not a flattery
The concessions Socrates led Polus to make allowed him to shift the burden of proof.
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Rhetoric, according to my view, is the ghost or counterfeit of a part of politics.
Rhetoric defined as trickery; Socrates sees nothing noble about it. Because it's target audience is the ignorant, and it's purpose is to engender belief rather than truth, Socrates seems convinced that rhetoric can do nothing but deceive.
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SOCRATES: And in the same way, he who has learned what is just is just?
Being just... isn't a profession. Logically flawed.
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those who know
I want to know how Socrates tells the difference between belief and knowledge. Capital letters Truth and Knowledge seem pretty important to him, but in this statement he's assuming that the ignorant and the knowledgeable are easily distinguished.
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POLUS: O Chaerephon, there are many arts among mankind which are experimental, and have their origin in experience, for experience makes the days of men to proceed according to art, and inexperience according to chance, and different persons in different ways are proficient in different arts, and the best persons in the best arts. And our friend Gorgias is one of the best, and the art in which he is a proficient is the noblest.
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SOCRATES: I had that in my admiring mind, Gorgias, when I asked what is the nature of rhetoric, which always appears to me, when I look at the matter in this way, to be a marvel of greatness.
Flattery
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I do not know what my own meaning is as yet
Pretense
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SOCRATES: Shall we then assume two sorts of persuasion,—one which is the source of belief without knowledge, as the other is of knowledge?
Perhaps one of Socrates' main criticisms of rhetoric.
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false knowledge
substitutes "knowledge" for "learning"
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SOCRATES: And that, Gorgias, was what I was suspecting to be your notion; yet I would not have you wonder if by-and-by I am found repeating a seemingly plain question; for I ask not in order to confute you, but as I was saying that the argument may proceed consecutively, and that we may not get the habit of anticipating and suspecting the meaning of one another's words; I would have you develope your own views in your own way, whatever may be your hypothesis. GORGIAS: I think that you are quite right, Socrates.
Socrates himself seems to be a master of persuasion via making the opinions of his opponents sound an awful lot like his own.
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To the greatest, Socrates, and the best of human things.
Reflects cultural ideal of virtue - not something that many are likely to be opposed to - while not communicating anything concrete.
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Aeacus does the same; and they both have sceptres, and judge; but Minos alone has a golden sceptre and is seated looking on, as Odysseus in Homer declares that he saw him: 'Holding a sceptre of gold, and giving laws to the dead.'
"he who has the most toys (gold) makes the rules"
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What good
Even back then, people were incredulous. "Oh, you're an English major? What do you want to, um....do?"
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SOCRATES
Socrates is a dick. But he's very good at getting people to slip up and use their words against him.
Maybe that's one of the reasons he's such a dick.
I hate Socrates.
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rhetoric
Longest time spent getting to the point EVER.
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excuse his own injustice
Rhetoric interferes with the natural order of things
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