337 Matching Annotations
  1. Last 7 days
    1. The statement helped set in motion a way of thinking that places the struggle for justice within the self. This thinking appeals not to reason or universal values but to the authority of identity, the “lived experience” of the oppressed. The self is not a rational being that can persuade and be persuaded by other selves, because reason is another form of power.

      The struggle for justice can be found within the self (rather than the group).

      Reason is another form of power.

      How does the idea of justice and self in the first connect (or not) to the Woodard's idea of self with respect to God in the Protestant evangelical America?

    2. Critical theory upends the universal values of the Enlightenment: objectivity, rationality, science, equality, freedom of the individual. These liberal values are an ideology by which one dominant group subjugates another. All relations are power relations, everything is political, and claims of reason and truth are social constructs that maintain those in power.

      Critical theory versus Englightenment

  2. Jul 2021
    1. Powerful suppliers, including suppliers of labor, can squeeze profi tability out of an industry that is unable to pass on cost increases in its own prices.

      Suppliers with bargaining power can squeeze the profitability out of an industry by raising prices on industry participants that cannot pass on cost increases in their own prices.

    1. Forty years ago, Michel Foucault observed in a footnote that, curiously, historians had neglected the invention of the index card. The book was Discipline and Punish, which explores the relationship between knowledge and power. The index card was a turning point, Foucault believed, in the relationship between power and technology.

      This piece definitely makes an interesting point about the use of index cards (a knowledge management tool) and power.

      Things have only accelerated dramatically with the rise of computers and the creation of data lakes and the leverage of power over people by Facebook, Google, Amazon, et al.

  3. Jun 2021
    1. black hole is a region of spacetime where gravity is so strong that nothing—no particles or even electromagnetic radiation such as light—can escape from it. The theory of general relativity predicts that a sufficiently compact mass can deform

      This has been a powerful source of inspiration for me since day immoral

    1. it is not about the product

      it is not about the product, but about the process—Christopher R. Rogers

      In humanity there is no product. We're collectively about the process.

      Similar to the idea of human "being" not human "doing".

      Sadly corporations have been exerting power over people and turning us into products or inputs in their processes and dramatically devaluing and erasing our humanity.

    2. that sometimes we don't give you know uh you know credit to or sort of like survive underneath in the subterfuge of what's happening

      you could kind of go deeper with that is um do the work of like fred moten and stephanos harney's uh black study or radical study in in the undercommons of of this idea of like um there are these molds intellectual practice you know that sometimes we don't give you know uh you know credit to or sort of like survive underneath in the subterfuge of what's happening—Christopher R. Rogers (autogenerated transcript)

      He's talking about work (scholarship) that may sit outside the mainstream that for one reason or another aren't recognized (in this case, because the scholars are marginalized in a culture mired in racist ideas, colonialism, etc.). At it's roots, it doesn't necessarily make the work any more or less valuable than that in

      cf. with the academic samizdat of Vladimir Bukovsky who was working under a repressive Russian government

      cf similarly with the work of Thomas Kuhn in The Structure of Scientific Revolutions.

      Consensus can very often only be consensus until it isn't.

      How do these ideas interoperate with those of power (power over and power with)? One groups power over another definitely doesn't make them right (or just) at the end of the day.

      I like the word "undercommons", which could be thought of not in a marginalizing way, but in the way of a different (and possibly better) perspective.

    1. One thing that should be learned from the bitter lesson is the great power of general purpose methods, of methods that continue to scale with increased computation even as the available computation becomes very great. The two methods that seem to scale arbitrarily in this way are search and learning

      This is a big lesson. As a field, we still have not thoroughly learned it, as we are continuing to make the same kind of mistakes. To see this, and to effectively resist it, we have to understand the appeal of these mistakes. We have to learn the bitter lesson that building in how we think we think does not work in the long run. The bitter lesson is based on the historical observations that 1) AI researchers have often tried to build knowledge into their agents, 2) this always helps in the short term, and is personally satisfying to the researcher, but 3) in the long run it plateaus and even inhibits further progress, and 4) breakthrough progress eventually arrives by an opposing approach based on scaling computation by search and learning. The eventual success is tinged with bitterness, and often incompletely digested, because it is success over a favored, human-centric approach.

    1. This leads us to Markovits’s second critique of the aspirational view: The cycle that produces meritocratic inequality severely harms not only the middle class but the very elite who seem to benefit most from it.

      What if we look at meritocracy from a game theoretic viewpoint?

      Certainly there's an issue that there isn't a cap on meritocratic outputs, so if one wants more wealth, then one needs to "simply" work harder. As a result, in a "keeping up with the Jones'" society that (incorrectly) measures happiness in wealth, everyone is driven to work harder and faster for their piece of the pie.

      (How might we create a sort of "set point" to limit the unbounded meritocratic cap? Might this create a happier set point/saddle point on the larger universal graph?)

      This effect in combination with the general drive to have "power over" people instead of "power with", etc. in combination with racist policies can create some really horrific effects.

      What other compounding effects might there be? This is definitely a larger complexity-based issue.

    1. One pastor, who requested anonymity in order to speak openly, put it to me this way:Having grown up in the South, [I think] Southern Baptist culture is probably uniquely this way, but working in a church that isn’t in the South, this stuff still rears its head. Not as much the same presenting issues, but you still fundamentally get people who are in love with power and will take any means necessary to beat you down so they have power and you are subservient to them, not the Gospel.

      A searing indictment of power within religion...

    1. Firmina will be the longest cable in the world capable of running entirely from a single power source at one end of the cable if its other power source(s) become temporarily unavailable—a resilience boost at a time when reliable connectivity is more important than ever. 

      i was going to ask what good it is having a cable that has power, but not the data center behind it.

      i guess the situation is that the fiber optic cable also has power cables running along it too, powering the repeaters, and it's the power cables that might break. in this case, having single ended power would be very useful.

      i'm most curious to know how power is sent. is this 48V dc? higher? how much? kV?

    1. Of the different instantaneous HRV indices computed by the point process technique, we selected the instantaneous high frequency power (HF) as our representative HRV metric. Heart rate HF power has garnered the greatest consensus for reflecting respiratory sinus arrhythmia (RSA) modulation by parasympathetic activity
    1. one of the beliefs that seems to be characteristic of the postmodernist mind set is the idea that politics and cleverness are the basis for all judgments about quality or truth, regardless of the subject matter or who is making the judgment

      hmmm...this needs to be unpacked...I might start by suggesting that critical theory does indeed often explore how judgements of quality and truth are shaped by politics, power, desire, knowledge, etc, but that's not a point against such work, but rather a recognition of part of its main practice.

      Cleverness is another matter...there's quite a bit of cleverness here in Morningstar's post, so should we judge it less worthy?

  4. May 2021
    1. an iterative process of knowledge production through reference, review, and refinement

      After reading Chapter 5, "Annotation Expresses Power" in Remi and Antero's book, Annotation, I know there is more lurking behind this idea of scholarship as a "great conversation", iterating and refining, but also inscribing, foreclosing, opening, diverting, eliding, obscuring, (dis)empowering, apologizing, justifying, (de)mystifying, and in so many other ways being so much other than a collective project toward greater enlightenment...

    1. Right now, fewer than half a dozen tech firms concentrate huge resources on a small number of global post-graduate AI programmes around the world. They directly and indirectly influence the training and content of those programmes, especially through access to data-sets. Compliance of senior academics is easy to gain, however they individually rationalise it.

      The dominant culture being in a position of power and wealth makes it far easier to direct the future to ensure that the dominate culture stays in power and wealth.

      How does one "break this wheel" of power?

    2. I know tech policy pretty well, and this absolute dumpster fire of a policy area isn’t just a cool new place to build a blockchain-based commons, but a hard-right haven of male libertarians asset-stripping the social democratic state to build global monopolies that re-run nineteenth century colonialism, but bigger.

      A well stated version of our current problem.

    1. The Party is not concerned with perpetuating its blood but with perpetuating itself. WHO wields power is not important, provided that the hierarchical structure remains always the same.
    2. he new aristocracy was made up for the most part of bureaucrats, scientists, technicians, trade-union organizers, publicity experts, sociologists, teachers, journalists, and professional politicians. These people, whose origins lay in the salaried middle class and the upper grades of the working class, had been shaped and brought together by the barren world of monopoly industry and centralized government. As compared with their opposite numbers in past ages, they were less avaricious, less tempted by luxury, hungrier for pure power, and, above all, more conscious of what they were doing and more intent on crushing opposition. This last difference was cardinal. By comparison with that existing today, all the tyrannies of the past were half-hearted and inefficient. The ruling groups were always infected to some extent by liberal ideas, and were content to leave loose ends everywhere, to regard only the overt act and to be uninterested in what their subjects were thinking. Even the Catholic Church of the Middle Ages was tolerant by modern standards. Part of the reason for this was that in the past no government had the power to keep its citizens under constant surveillance. The invention of print, however, made it easier to manipulate public opinion, and the film and the radio carried the process further. With the development of television, and the technical advance which made it possible to receive and transmit simultaneously on the same instrument, private life came to an end. Every citizen, or at least every citizen important enough to be worth watching, could be kept for twenty-four hours a day under the eyes of the police and in the sound of official propaganda, with all other channels of communication closed. The possibility of enforcing not only complete obedience to the will of the State, but complete uniformity of opinion on all subjects, now existed for the first time.

      new society, new aristocracy, total power, television, technology

    1. Prominence as a critic tends to reinforce itself. The person who appears on news shows is the person who gets to star in a documentary is the person who gets to testify before the Senate is the person who gets invited back onto the news shows, and so forth.

      Another specific example of this has been noted by Zeynep Tufekci of an economist becoming the face of criticism of the education space being open or closed during the coronavirus pandemic. The woman, who had no background in public health or epidemiology, became the public face of the argument about whether schools should be open or closed.

    2. Which brings us back, once again, to the question with which we began: why does it matter who gets to be seen as a prominent “tech critic”? The answer is that it matters because such individuals get to set the bounds for the discussion.

      The ability to set the bounds of the discussion or the problem is a classical example of "power-over" instead of power-with or power-to.

    1. the three types of power commonly discussed in management theory: power-over, power-with, and power-to. These three types of power were first identified by the Mother of Modern Management, Mary Parker Follett. You may also recognize her as the person who coined the term “win-win.” Here are the three types of power: Power-over is extractive. Power-over is extracted from other people, the natural world, etc. Power-over means getting more of the pie. Power-with is gained when we work together, i.e, collective action. Power-to is generative. Power-to is the power we have to create new things. Power-to means making the pie bigger. 

      An interesting break down of power.

    1. When asked if she has a message for her fans, Williams pauses before reassuring them not to worry. “The main thing is I can still sing. I’m singing my ass off, so that hasn’t been affected,” Williams says. “Can’t keep me down for too long.”
  5. Mar 2021
    1. I originally said: It feels like the principle of least power in action. But another way of rephrasing “least power” is “most availability.” Technologies that are old, simple, and boring tend to be more widely available.

      This is also the reason that space platforms are built on incredibly old computing systems, we know what all the problems and issues are. Then when the satellite is up in outer-space where it's not accessible and not easily repairable, it will hopefully work as expected forever.

    1. satire

      Satire was often times used as a method of critiquing the power structures of the day, as well as making comments on other aspects of society. Direct criticism was frowned upon, and often times punished, but you could get away with veiling your criticism as humor.

    2. Franklin thereby invented the first newspaper chain. It was more than a business venture, for like many publishers since he believed that the press had a public-service duty

      Long before the internet, and even national level newspapers, Franklin understood the power of the written word. His, and other like minded individual’s words were distributed in the form of pamphlets, that extolled their ideas on liberty and justice, and spread those words to all who were interested.

    1. Preliminary results from the first year are tantalizing for anyone interested in solutions to address rising inequality in the United States, especially as they manifest along racial and gender lines. Within the first year, the study’s participants obtained jobs at twice the rate of the control group. At the beginning of the study, 28 percent of the participants had full-time employment, and after the first year, that number rose to 40 percent.

      This is what happened when 125 participants were given $500/month over two years to see what would happen.

    1. Democrat Chicago to allow the economy to open up less than a week after Biden's inauguration...it's all planned to make Biden appear successful! Democrats allowed millions of people to suffer and lose businesses all for their own greed and power!
  6. Feb 2021
    1. Further, when using a dumbbell, the diameter of the dumbbell plates puts the weight forward of the axis of rotation of the shoulder, placing high levels of stress on the muscles involved in external rotation (such as the teres minor and the infraspinatus) that help stabilize the shoulders.

      Justificativa pela qual não é interessante utilizar halteres e Kettlebells no Power Clean. Além da carga ser consideravelmente menor.

    1. <small><cite class='h-cite via'> <span class='p-author h-card'>Jack Jamieson</span> in I really appreciate @emmibevensee’s r… (<time class='dt-published'>02/13/2021 12:36:00</time>)</cite></small>

    1. Whoever controls the third place controls the community. If the third place is a building, and they decide to renovate, tough luck. It's being renovated. The third place is where the community lives, it's where they go by default essentially. If you own that place, you own a considerable amount of power in the community.
  7. Jan 2021
    1. Systemd problems might not have mattered that much, except that GNOME has a similar attitude; they only care for a small subset of the Linux desktop users, and they have historically abandoned some ways of interacting the Desktop in the interest of supporting touchscreen devices and to try to attract less technically sophisticated users. If you don't fall in the demographic of what GNOME supports, you're sadly out of luck.
    1. I've already said this, but if you think the average desktop computer user thinks a sentence beginning "I just make a chroot..." makes any kind of sense, you haven't been paying attention to the level of intelligence of the general public.
    2. Well, that user can safely stay with Windows. Hiding these things from me makes wish that.
    3. Linux on the desktop won't take off until it is equally easy. Snap may be dumbed down, restricted and all the rest of it, but for ordinary users it's easier - and more secure - than the alternative.
    1. What will it take to break this circuit, where white supremacists see that violence is rewarded with amplification and infamy? While the answer is not straightforward, there are technical and ethical actions available.

      How can this be analogized to newspapers that didn't give oxygen to the KKK in the early 1900's as a means of preventing recruiting?

    1. Most users frankly don’t care how software is packaged. They don’t understand the difference between deb / rpm / flatpak / snap. They just want a button that installs Spotify so they can listen to their music.
    2. In addition, PPAs are awful for software discovery. Average users have no idea what a PPA is, nor how to configure or install software from it. Part of the point of snap is to make software discovery easier. We can put new software in the “Editor’s Picks” in Ubuntu Software then people will discover and install it. Having software in a random PPA somewhere online is only usable by experts. Normal users have no visibility to it.
    3. While you may have some objections due to your specific setup, please consider you’re not the usual use case. Most people install Ubuntu on a single drive, not separate /home, and not multiple disks. Most are quite happy with automatic updates - in line with how their phone is likely setup - both for debs (with unattended-upgrades) and snaps (via automatic refresh in snapd). Experts such as yourself are capable of managing your own system and are interested in twiddling knobs and adjusting settings everywhere. There are millions of Ubuntu users who are not like that. We should cater for the widest possible use case by default, and have the option to fiddle switches for experts, which is what we have.
  8. Dec 2020
    1. The effort of confronting that machine, day in and day out, compounded over a lifetime, leads to stress so corrosive that it physically changes bodies

      How does this highlight questions of power? Is it hard or soft power in evidence?

    2. They were the very people communities would have turned to first to help recover from the pandemic: entrepreneurs who were also employers; confidants like coaches, pastors and barbers; family men forced into a sandwich generation younger than their white counterparts, because their parents got sick earlier and they had to care for them while raising kids of their own.

      We often think of systemic racism and inequality in more concrete terms and ways — policing, schooling, access to money and power. What ideas about systemic inequality can you draw from this sentence and paragraph?

    1. It is quite large, the letters along its spine are big and bright, and readers are required to own it in print, because Mr. Caro, who still uses a typewriter, has refused to distribute the written version in any other way.

      I've always wondered why there wasn't a digital edition available after all this time.

  9. Nov 2020
    1. What’s truly sad (but not shocking) about this whole situation is that this person, James Damore, a Havard educated, seemingly well-intentioned fella, had steadfast beliefs based on his complete misunderstanding of how “sexism” or “discrimination” actually work.And that’s the problem with the way we talk about diversity and inclusion in the business world.People are learning about unconscious bias WITHOUT the foundational knowledge of the cycle of socialization.People are learning about microaggressions WITHOUT the context of power dynamics.People are learning about “diversity programs” WITHOUT true understanding of concepts such as privilege or allyship.

      While there are some people with good intents in the [[DEI]] space - it's starting to become apparent that there are some [[foundational concepts]] that we are missing, such as understanding how [[cycle of socialization]] impacts [[unconscious bias]]

      or not understanding the role of [[power dynamics]] and [[microaggression]]

    1. If this is populism, it’s an aggressive strain. Left-leaning historian Rick Perlstein calls Trump’s general appeal “herrenvolk democracy.” It’s not conservatism at all. It’s big government, and big government programs, but only for the deserving.
  10. Oct 2020
    1. And would a hip hop fan question, much less downvote, a “verified” Genius annotation authored by Kendrick Lamar that explains the meaning behind his music?

      But if we're going to consider music as art, isn't a lot of the value and power of art in the "eye of the beholder"? To some extent art's value is in the fact that it can have multiple interpretations. From this perspective, once it's been released, Lamar's music isn't "his" anymore, it becomes part of a broader public that will hear and interpret it as they want to. So while Lamar may go back and annotate what he may have meant at the time as an "expert", doesn't some of his art thereby lose some power in that he is tacitly stating that he apparently didn't communicate his original intent well?

      By comparison and for contrast one could take the recent story of Donald Trump's speech (very obviously written by someone else) about the recent mass shootings and compare them with the polar opposite message he spews on an almost daily basis from his Twitter account. See: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/teleprompter-trump-meets-twitter-trump-as-the-president-responds-to-mass-slayings/2019/08/05/cdd8ea78-b799-11e9-b3b4-2bb69e8c4e39_story.html

    2. Selectively redacting Weinstein’s words, O’Hare’s entire poem reads: “I came of age in a culture of demons I respect more than women.”

      Do her words have even more power in doing this because she's using Weinstein's actual words against him?

    3. “Every Cambodian... including the King has the right to express freely their view.”

      While I like the sentiment here, a lot of the power of the message comes from not only the medium, but the distribution which it receives. Many daily examples of "typical" annotation done by common people are done in a way that incredibly few will ultimately see the message. The fact that the annotations of the emperor were republished and distributed was what, in great part, gave them so much weight and value. Similarly here with the example of the King's blog or Alexandra Bell's work which was displayed in public. I hope there is more discussion about the idea of distribution in what follows.

    1. In fact, if you do the math, if failure equals knowledge and knowledge equals power, then failure equals power by the transitive property.

      But first we have to prove that this system has the transitive property to begin with!

    Tags

    Annotators

    1. But the scariest outcome of the centralization of information in the age of social networks is something else: It is making us all much less powerful in relation to governments and corporations.
    1. Refusing advertising is refusing to privilege moneyed speech. The increasing equation of money with speech—that is, those with the most money can be the loudest and most persistent voices in contemporary media—is denied when advertising is refused.
  11. link-springer-com.uaccess.univie.ac.at link-springer-com.uaccess.univie.ac.at
    1. The approach proposed here can allow us to examine howthe deployment of future-oriented grammars reflect (or, in fact, help to discursivelyconstitute) differential authority, access,and influence in relation to decision-making processes, at various levels of institutional power
    2. The approach proposed here can allow us to examine howthe deployment of future-oriented grammars reflect (or, in fact, help to discursivelyconstitute) differential authority, access,and influence in relation to decision-making processes, at various levels of institutional power
  12. Sep 2020
    1. Our technology is like a universal translator, driven by switches, eye gaze, and jerking screen touches.

      I think it is amazing that technology has this much power in order for people with disabilities to communicate.

    1. I can’t do without Gabriel Betteredge

      This is such a strong remark, and I assume that it’s intentional and purposeful as we learn more about Betteredge’s role (beyond his butler role?) in this story. On another note, this also brings up the social norms in the Victorian era, especially the power dynamic between servants and their employers.

  13. Aug 2020
  14. Jul 2020
    1. "Other office suites are focusing on the 'power user' which is a valuable market, for sure, but the real power and range for an open-source office suite alternative is the vast majority which is the 'rest of us. Sometimes we all forget how empowering open source is to the entire world."
  15. Jun 2020
  16. May 2020
    1. However, distributing such Ruby apps to inexperienced end users or non-Ruby-programmer end users is problematic. If users have to install Ruby first, or if they have to use RubyGems, they can easily run into problems. Even if they already have Ruby installed, they can still run into problems, e.g. by having the wrong Ruby version installed. The point is, it's a very real problem that could harm your reputation.
    1. All of the features of NLS were in support of Engelbart's goal of augmenting collective knowledge work and therefore focused on making the user more powerful, not simply on making the system easier to use.
    1. I will need to find a workaround for one of my private extensions that controls devices in my home network, and its source code cannot be uploaded to Mozilla because of my and my family's privacy.
    2. I believe that beginning to distribute tools that patch Firefox and give back power to users and allow them to install unsigned extensions is necessary when an organization is taking away our rights without giving us a compelling reason for doing so.
    3. I appreciate the vigilance, but it would be even better to actually publish a technical reasoning for why do you folks believe Firefox is above the device owner, and the root user, and why there should be no possibility through any means and configuration protections to enable users to run their own code in the release version of Firefox.
    4. I will need to find a workaround for one of my private extensions that controls devices in my home network, and its source code cannot be uploaded to Mozilla because of my and my family's privacy.
  17. Apr 2020
  18. Mar 2020
    1. expect to see more support from Democrats, Republicans, academics and diplomats for the notion that government has a much bigger role to play in creating adequate redundancy in supply chains
    1. The main forces that restricted public health police powers were: (1) the advent of civil rights jurisprudence; (2) the rise of patient autonomy and the rapid expansion of state personal health services expenditures; and (3) federal encroachment on state authority.
    2. Historically, the communitarian bases of the American legal system supported the subordination of individual rights when necessary for the preservation of common good. Quarantine measures were subjected to a deferential review supporting the states' right to substantially limit individual rights for the community's benefit.
    3. The legal principles employed to sustain state public health police power were sic utere tuo ut alterum non laedas (use that which is yours so as not to injure others) and salus publica suprema lex est (public well-being is the supreme law).12 The principle of sic utere describes the power of the state to prevent or prohibit “the use of private property or the commission of private acts in a manner harmful to others.”15 The principle of salus publica, on the other hand, recognizes police power as a means to “prevent or avoid public harm even if the action has not harmed others.
    4. Generally, the courts reviewed police power measures only when the degree of restriction of personal liberty was found to be unconscionable.
    5. Remedies included regulation of private property and behavior and the power to detain and hold individuals without pre-intervention review
    6. communitarian philosophy underlying this approach was carried into later judicial holdings, further consolidating states' exercise of public health police power.

      "Communitarian"

    7. Police powers of the states are an expression of civil authority, i.e., the state's ability to control, regulate, or prohibit non-criminal behavior.6 Health officials may use these powers to compel treatment, prohibit or direct a particular conduct, or detain and isolate in a quasi-criminal nature
    1. Factors that affect power

      Factors that affect power.

    2. Cohen’s recommendations:  Jacob Cohen has many well-known publications regarding issues of power and power analyses, including some recommendations about effect sizes that you can use when doing your power analysis.  Many researchers (including Cohen) consider the use of such recommendations as a last resort, when a thorough literature review has failed to reveal any useful numbers and a pilot study is either not possible or not feasible.  From Cohen (1988, pages 24-27):

      Recommendations from Cohen about choosing the effect size when doing a power analysis.

    3. Obtaining the necessary numbers to do a power analysis

      Obtaining the necessary numbers to do a power analysis

    4. Power is the probability of detecting an effect, given that the effect is really there.  In other words, it is the probability of rejecting the null hypothesis when it is in fact false.  For example, let’s say that we have a simple study with drug A and a placebo group, and that the drug truly is effective; the power is the probability of finding a difference between the two groups.  So, imagine that we had a power of .8 and that this simple study was conducted many times.  Having power of .8 means that 80% of the time, we would get a statistically significant difference between the drug A and placebo groups.  This also means that 20% of the times that we run this experiment, we will not obtain a statistically significant effect between the two groups, even though there really is an effect in reality.

      Power analysis definition

  19. Feb 2020
    1. Capital is money: Capital is commodities.

      Capital equals self-valorizing value. The "self" relates to labor-power qua capital purchased by the capitalist realized in the process of production. Therefore, "capital is money capital is commodities," as it uses, realizes, and incorporates money and the commodity of labor.

  20. Jan 2020
    1. Furthermore, the students had the power to conclude a unit once they felt that they had sufficiently addressed their inquirie

      I appreciate your acknowledgement of "students had the power".... You didn't "empower" them. You gave them a space to use the power they already have to do this kind of work.